Conference Introduction and Opening Prayer

Part 1 of 4 · Ep. 333

Joseph Broom [00:00:00] The 2011 circling the wagons Conference was a production of Mormon Stories Podcast and the Open Stories Foundation. For additional Circling the Wagons audio and video, and for additional content regarding LGBT issues within Mormonism, please check out gaymormonstories.org also please know that the video for this conference is available@YouTube.com mormonstories and and thank you for listening.

Guest [00:00:27] Now let us rejoice in the day of salvation. No longer as strangers on earth need we roam.

Joseph Broom [00:00:39] It's a pleasure to welcome you to this historic conference on behalf of Mormon Stories and the Open Stories Foundation. My name is Joseph Broom and I've been asked to conduct this first general session of this conference. One year ago, I could not have imagined me standing before you as an openly gay man. Many of you know that I began the process of coming out a little over a year ago and began blogging as Invictus Pilgrim. At that time, I was absolutely paranoid about anyone finding out my true identity. Today, however, I am proud to stand before you as a man who, after 27 years of membership in the church and 24 years of marriage, came to a point in my life when, as Bill Bradshaw so eloquently described yesterday, I was dramatically, unexpectedly confronted with my truth and knew that I could no longer live a lie. This past year has been full of many twists and turns, ups and downs, and new and varied experiences. It has also been a year in which I've made more friends and met more new and interesting people than at any time in my life. One of those interesting people who became a good friend is John Dehlin, the founder of Mormon Stories. This conference had its inception last July in a restaurant in Brigham City where a friend and I were having lunch with John. We were discussing various issues facing gay Mormons when John smiled and said, wouldn't it be cool to have a Gay Mormon Stories Conference? So, having attended the June Mormon Stories Conference here in Salt Lake City, I was enthusiastic and offered to help organize is due to John's vision and the hard work of many people that we are able to sit here today. We want to specifically recognize Ann Peffer and Jared Anderson with Mormon Stories and thank them for all their hard work. We also want to thank Alan Miller, who organized tomorrow morning's interfaith service to be held in Skaggs Chapel, which is just down this hall at 11:30 tomorrow morning. We hope that many, if not all of you will be able to come to that. Special thanks are also extended to those who've arranged and are providing music for today's sessions to the members of the Conference chorus who will sing to David Zabriskie for directing them, and to Mark Packer for helping organize the chorus, and to Mark Tyler Cofit and Devin o' Donnell for sharing their talents with us this afternoon, and to David Naylor for accompanying them. We also want to thank Jeffrey Blackmer for creating the illustration that's on the front of the program. Unfortunately, we neglected to give him credit for that in the program, so I wanted to specifically take just a couple of minutes and ask you to turn to that and as I explain in Jeffrey's words, the symbolism that he incorporated into this illustration. First of all, the violin symbolizes not only the musical talent and appreciation we have learned and in some cases grown up with as members of the church. It's also a nod to the abundant creative talent in the gay LDS community. Young Woman is holding a Book of Mormon to symbolize our faith in the Gospel and also our deep, intimate knowledge of the scriptures due to searching for answers to our particular plight and guidance on how to conduct our lives after having come out. The next young man is holding a seed bag and trowel, which is a nod to the old Joseph Smith reel to reel where he's sowing on his father's farm and has that epiphany. It also symbolizes sowing the seeds of understanding, which is really what this conference is all about. Finally, the last young man is holding harvested wheat, which is a symbol of the hard work of our predecessors and the hard work yet to come in our struggle for acceptance and understanding in our community. We're also grateful to the panelists and presenters in the breakout sessions listed in your programs, and to our speakers, Carolyn Pearson, Lee Beckstead, and Jimmy Creech. Sister Pearson's books are on sale up in Keck hall, along with books by Emily Pearson and Brent KIRBY. And from 12 to 1:30, Jimmy Creech's book Adam's Gift will also be on sale and Jimmy will be on hand to autograph copies. I believe. Though Jimmy will not be speaking until this afternoon, he will be conducting one of this morning's breakout sessions as described in the program. And just as a side note, we're especially grateful to Jimmy for traveling all the way from North Carolina to be here. Jimmy's not lds. He's a former United Methodist minister who feels passionately and is a pioneer in seeking equality within the general Christian community for members of the LGBT community, and we're grateful he's here. Lastly, we also want to thank all the various LGBT community organizations that are represented up in Keck hall, which is upstairs at the north end of the building. And we encourage you to visit with them during the morning and afternoon breaks as well as during the lunch break. Before we go on, there was a camera left at McGillis School last night. If someone wants to claim this, I will have it. This morning's general session will open with a prayer offered by Ann Peffer, after which I will read the statement of purpose for the conference.

Carolyn Pearson [00:07:03] Dear God in heaven, we're so thankful that we can be here today and we can be here in hopes of being together and finding love and peace

Joseph Broom [00:07:17] and

Carolyn Pearson [00:07:19] sharing our authentic selves with one another.

Joseph Broom [00:07:23] And we

Carolyn Pearson [00:07:29] are thankful that there are so many who are supportive of the needs of the LGBT same sex attracted Mormons and that

Joseph Broom [00:07:43] we

Carolyn Pearson [00:07:46] have this opportunity to speak to many others who aren't here as well and let many know that they are not alone and that there are resources and love and that there's companionship and support available. We say these things in the name of Jesus Christ.

Joseph Broom [00:08:08] Amen. Just before I read the statement of purpose, just a program note, I'll just go over the breakout sessions quickly so I don't have to do it later. After this general session, there'll be a 30 minute break and then we'll have the breakout sessions that are listed in the program. Most of those will be on this main level, and I believe there's one upstairs in this room. There will be a panel. And in addition to the names in the program is that of Katharine Steffenson, who will be representing Family Fellowship. So if you turn to the back of your program, you'll find the statement of purpose that was written by Joanna Brooks and others to express the purpose of this conference. The goal of the Mormon Stories Circling the Wagons Conference is to create a space where LGBTQ or SSASGA individuals and their families and allies can gather together to acknowledge, explore and honor shared experiences. No issues strike more deeply than who we love and how we understand and honor God. These issues carry an especially profound weight in Mormon communities and have been the source of a great deal of misunderstanding, judgment and hurt. Consequently, gay Mormons are deeply divided over how to address same sex attraction and negotiate the choices they face. In convening this conference, we are inviting LGBTQ Mormons and their families and allies to step beyond historic divisions to establish a shared space where all who have ever self identified as Mormon and have experienced same sex attraction can speak truthfully and respectfully. Mormon Stories and the Open Stories foundation are hosting this conference as an expression of our long standing commitment to LGBTQ issues and in the spirit of our shared values as we acknowledge the richness of Mormon heritage, teachings and community in all of its diversity. We believe that one can self identify as Mormon based on one's genealogy, upbringing, beliefs, relationships and other life experiences, regardless of one's adherence or non adherence to the teachings or doctrines of any religious organization. We seek spaces where we as Mormons can live lives of intellectual and spiritual integrity, individual conscience and personal dignity. We acknowledge and honor different spiritual paths and modes of religious or non religious truth seeking. We respect the convictions of those who subscribe to ideas and beliefs that differ from our own. We recognize the confusion, distress, emotional trauma, Social ostracism that people on faith journeys often experience. We seek constructive ways of helping and supporting people regardless of their ultimate decisions regarding church affiliation or activity. We affirm the inherent. And equal worth of all human beings. Seek spaces where Mormons and all people can interact as equals regardless of race, gender or sexual orientation. In this spirit of egalitarianism, we prefer non authoritarian and non hierarchical means of organization and affiliation. We welcome all who wish to participate in a spirit of fellowship and openness with condemnation for none and compassion for all in the hopes that all will experience personal renewal and discover a basis for common ground in our shared heritage. Our first speaker this morning will be by noted Salt Lake therapist Lee Beckstead. He will be followed by the world premiere, performed by the Conference Chorus of a new composition by David Zabriskie of a poem written by Carolyn Pearson, Pioneers. Carolyn Pearson will then address us and after her remarks we'll have a 30 minute break as noted in the program. Once again, thank you for being here.

Welcome Address to Conference Attendees

Lee Beckstead [00:13:27] I am honored to be among this crowd. I do not know most of you, but I would bet that you have been tested and tried. You have had to make difficult decisions, maybe even wrestle with deciding to be at this conference today regardless of the snow. You have had to search your souls and risk leaving familiar territories of beliefs and risk important relationships so that you could find new understanding and stand for your truth. Many of you have been alone in this struggle, so I'm glad you've been able to find safe spaces, kindred spirits and to use Carolyn Pearson's analogy, find other pioneers to join you on this trek. All this reminds me of something I heard last week about Eve in the Bible who it seems also chose to do something that seemed to separate her from God in order to obtain more knowledge. And Adam, probably not wanting to leave. Eve also consciously made a choice. This act brought hardship but also gave them more ability to progress and mature, and God was with them all the time. I know it is very difficult to go it alone, but I also know that it can be very important as a means of really knowing who you are and really knowing what life is about. Because of this, lgbtq, ssa, Mormons and their families and allies truly seem to be more capable of seeing life, seeing others, and seeing themselves with more complexity, more compassion because of these conflicts within themselves and with the status quo. As a psychologist, it is important for me to recognize, though, how historically, mental health professionals have got it wrong. We have viewed homosexuality through lenses that are very restricted, lenses of disease and immaturity. We have spent decades trying to find the cause of homosexuality so that we could cure it. These causes, these cures have ranged from the benign or the ludicrous, such as teaching male homosexuals how to play sports or teaching lesbians how to wear makeup, to such cruel methods such as lobotomies, castrations, clitorectomies, and electrocuting them so that they would become more averse to what they desired. Many sexual and gender minorities have signed up for these methods because they saw themselves as the problem that needed to be fixed. It makes sense that many of us have taken on the responsibility to try to change ourselves in order to fit in. This gives us a sense of control and a sense of purpose. By blaming ourselves for being different, it gives us a sense of purpose to try to make things better. But this agenda will ultimately damage the person through failure, through shame, anxiety, and depression, the solution of trying to fix homosexuality becomes the problem. Biases and stereotypes have ruled our understanding of homosexuality, bisexuality, and transgender issues. This means that you have been given a problem to solve without the right information, with the wrong information. And probably you've been given this problem to solve without the space or freedom to solve it adequately or creatively. The analogy I like to use is the blind men and the elephant. As the fable goes, a group of individuals in the dark or in the blind, who have never seen an elephant come upon an elephant and each touch one particular area of the elephant. One is touching the tusk, one is touching the ear, one is touching the tail, another is touching the side. And none can comprehend this big animal because they are too confident in their own perception and they argue with each other about what is an elephant. It all depends which part of the elephant you are holding and the lens you are viewing and interpreting that piece of the elephant for sexual and religious conflicts. Some are holding on and saying homosexuality is an addiction. Change is Possible. Some are saying religion is important. Some say, no, you have to get rid of your religion. Some say you have to come out. Some say this is what the gay lifestyle is. Views can become myopic. They become fragmented, polarized, dissociative, and side taking is reinforced. Claims are unjustified, unbalanced and misleading. This blind men and the elephant story became clearer to me about 13 years ago and really about four years ago when I began talking with those who I considered my enemy, and I later found out that they considered me the enemy. I began to talk with proponents of reparative therapy. I found that many of them were most afraid of not being validated for their religious beliefs. They were concerned about not being heard and spent their time validating their perspective, as those on the other side of the gay affirmative side were validating their perspective. Those caught in the middle of these debates seem to be the ones who suffered the most because of these incomplete solutions. The problem is the options tend to be choose a gay identity or remain religious, get off the fence, and decide which way to go. Well, as many of you know, those choices keep the person stuck because the two choices are actually, again, part of the problem. Despite the scriptural message, a person cannot cut off a part of themselves without causing harm, even if it is to please God, your parents, or your community. Mental health and well being seem to involve becoming whole, integrated and expansive. My work in this area, I learned that what we need to solve this problem is a more comprehensive approach, one that takes into consideration all aspects of the problem and take the best parts of all the aspects and avoid the parts that are harmful or inaccurate. However, it's as if we're trying to put together a big puzzle. Without all the puzzle pieces, we don't know the full story. There are many unknowns, many ambiguities regarding sexuality and spirituality. We are unable to see the full picture. Yet many are obsessed with trying to put the puzzle together with the pieces that they have and frustrated with themselves and others that they should be able to make it work with these puzzle pieces. However, as always with this topic, it's more complex than what people think. I was on the American Psychological association task force to decide and evaluate what psychological interventions we should do for those who are trying to change their sexual orientation. And the recommendation we made on this task force was that our best efforts are not in trying to change inherent aspects of sexuality or in trying to change religion, but in trying to reduce the misunderstanding of the hostility, the discrimination that exists within the individual and within their social situations. From my own personal and professional involvement experiences, I have come to learn that what matters most is love. I know that sounds very cliche, but it does make sense that love would be the answer. Now, I think many of you, if not all of you, have needed to re evaluate your understanding of what love love is. It is not submission. It is not trying to shame someone into changing. It is not suppression or denial. Love seems to involve an openness, attentiveness, tentativeness, humility, and a curiosity that allow us to connect with ourselves and connect with others through deep acceptance and understanding. This process of connection and acceptance can evolve into learning more about who you are and loving yourself for it, but also include becoming more compassionate and forgiving toward those who cannot understand you. People need love to grow and this is the same for sexual and gender minorities who are LDS and Mormon, and definitely their families and allies. But love without power is ineffective. Those who are loving but do not have power tend to try to please everyone but lose their identity and their life energy. Inevitably, those who love without power try hard to make an effect, but end up feeling demoralized, frustrated, a failure and hopeless. Power can come in many forms. For example permission. Permission is powerful, the ability to explore and examine your truth and then know what your truth is, and then power to act on that truth, especially knowing what you yourself need to thrive. Power can come from a parent standing up to protect their child or developing the inner strength to face discrimination when you are left alone. Power can come through obtaining accurate information and learning new skills. These skills could include learning how to live positively as a minority, learning how to grieve and accept reality, and then learning how to adapt to reality. Or power can come from learning how to relate more effectively with your feelings rather than hating them, fearing them, but loving them. Being able to face conflict with confidence is definitely a skill to learn. Regarding my own personal path and resolution of my distress for being both gay and Mormon, I had a very difficult time. However, it came down to figuring out what was right for me. I had to learn for myself if homosexuality and the way I experience it and the way I express it was evil and I had to learn more about what spirituality and religion meant for me. Because of this exploration and this self knowledge, I chose the path. I did and I continue to choose it. We all need to find our own individual path of what makes us happy and what helps us to grow. My resolution will not be your resolution and we are all too diverse for that. If the overarching purpose of life is to seek truth and remain open to more of it. Then I hope that you all continue to keep exploring for yourself what truth is, and then you will know more about what is right for you. Happiness should come after that, which I think the purpose of exploring truth for oneself is the focus and value of this Mormon Stories Open Stories conference. So thank you for letting me be a part of it.

Pioneer Poem and Musical Performance

Carolyn Pearson [00:25:23] I have been asked to read to you the poem that I wrote, which is the text that has been created by David Zabriskie and will be sung by these folks. This is a poem called Pioneers. My people were Mormon pioneers Is the blood still good? Truth flew by like a dove and dropped a feather in the west where truth flies you follow if you are a pioneer I have searched the skies and now and then another feather has fallen I have packed the hand cart again Packed it with the precious things and thrown away the rest I will sing by the fire at night out there on uncharted ground Where I am my own captain of tens Where I blow the bugle Bring myself to morning prayer Map out the miles and never know when or where or if at all I will finally say this is the place I face the plains on a good day for walking the sun rises and the mist clears I will be all right My people were Mormon pioneers.

Guest [00:27:51] My people were Mormon pioneers Is the blood still good? They stood in awe as truth flew by like a dove and dropped a feather in the west where truth flies you follow where truth flies you follow if you are a pioneer. And thrown away the rest and thrown away the rest if you are a pioneer. By the fires at night A very charted ground Where I am my own captain of chance Where I love valuable I agree myself to morning prayer. Or if at all. This is the place. I face the plains On a good day for walking On a good day I face the flames the sun rises and the mist clears the mist clears at the sun rising I will be

Joseph Broom [00:30:26] all right

Guest [00:30:30] I will be alright My people super Mormon pioneers where sing by the fires at night out there on uncharted ground Where I am my own pattern of death Where I go that you go I will bring myself to morning prayer. This is the place this is the place this is the place.

Carolyn Pearson [00:32:18] Thank you so very much for that thrilling experience. Very, very beautiful. Thank.

Guest [00:32:35] You.

Carolyn Pearson [00:32:36] It really is great to be here with you. I appreciate the invitation. I appreciate being here with all of the other good people who have so much to share with you. I appreciate Lee's words and I'm grateful to have Brother Creech here. Jimmy, we like to call People, brother and sister. You know that I told Jimmy last night that my good gay friend Mario presented me with two copies of his book, Adam's Gift. This is a very important book. This one copy for you, one copy for you to give to your Stake Presidency, which I did indeed give it to them. And I read my own, and it is certainly an inspiring story, and I recommend it to all of you. So it snowed this morning, and I know I'm really in Utah, as you see. I had to kill a muskrat on the way in here. I lied. My brother killed the muskrat for me. Thank you, Donald. As I was considering, from all of the many things I might wish to share with you today, I was really overcome with the vast difference there is between when I was first invited on this journey through my marriage to my gay husband, to where we are now. And I know all of you should be in awe of that very thing. Who would have thought that today we'd be having serious conversations about gay marriage? Who would have thought we could have had conferences like this? And I was remembering, and I mentioned this toward the end of Goodbye. I love you. When my former husband, Gerald, was in the last days of his life in my home in Walnut Creek, California, he was asleep on one couch, and I was asleep on another couch. And I woke in the middle of the night hearing him say, come on, come on, come on. And I went over and asked what was happening. He felt that he was in the audience of La Cage aux Faux. The musical was coming to San Francisco. And with some of the last of his money, Gerald had purchased one ticket for himself. And that was the first time, of course, in musical theater history that there was a love song between two men. And that was an unheard of kind of thing. And that was something Gerald so was looking forward to. I went and I put on the record of La Cage aux Fall. And as perhaps you know, there's that wonderful, wonderful love song. Song on the sand through the crash of the waves. I could tell that the words were romantic. Something about sharing, something about always. Well, the curtain never went up for Gerald. Didn't go up for most people in the 1980s. Those were very difficult times. And the times are so much different today that I hope that is appreciated by all of you who are here. And I thought, okay, so today the curtain is up, and all of you gay folk are invited to be the star of your own show. And not only that, you get to be the playwright. Now, that's a monumental thing. And so I've been thinking what. What would be the story that a gay person would want to write out for his or her life story here? And of course, I thought, well, we all want to be the hero of our own story, of course. Mmm, hero. I started to think about that word. What does the word hero entail? And so I got out my Joseph Campbell. You all know Joseph Campbell, our major preeminent mythologist. We can call him Brother Campbell if we wish. So, Brother Campbell and I have spent a lot of time these last several weeks creating a message for all of you which we are entitling the Hero's Journey of the Homosexual Mormon. And it may be that you've not heard the word hero used in terms of who you are, but it's about time, is it not? And I would like to go through, firstly, the steps of the hero's journey as Joseph Campbell has outlined them for us, and then look at them in more detail. So very quickly, see if you can spot yourself anywhere along this journey.

The Hero's Journey of the Gay Mormon

Lee Beckstead [00:37:50] 1.

Carolyn Pearson [00:37:51] The ordinary world. 2. Call to adventure. 3. Refusal of the call. 4. Meeting with the mentor. 5. Crossing the threshold. 6. Tests allies, enemies. 7. Approach to the inmost cave. 8. The supreme ordeal. 9. Reward. 10. The road back. 11. Resurrection.

Lee Beckstead [00:38:15] 12.

Carolyn Pearson [00:38:16] Return with the elixir. Okay, what is the elixir? That is our final reward. Here it is that thing defined as a substance believed to be able to cure all ills. So that's what we're after. You know, there's a way in which we're all on a hero's journey. Some of you remember my little play, my turn on Earth. Barbara and her friends safely up in heaven. The ordinary world for them, called to adventure. Got to go down to earth. I don't want to. Oh, you have to. You got to go find the treasure that makes heavenly father and mother what they are. Oh, all right. This is the gay person's heroic journey. And the parent or the friend or ally can adapt this to your own self. And we won't all have the exact same destination. It will look different for various of us. But I'm suggesting that if we find the elixir, we will feel somewhat the same, because the elixir, something that universally feels the same to all of us. So here is the step one, the ordinary world of the Mormon homosexual. You all remember that. Safely in the community, going to primary, singing the songs, seeing the pictures of the temple, little boys knowing the steps you're climbing in the priesthood, little girls learning about modesty and thinking how your wedding dress is going to look all very, very safe in the ordinary world of every Mormon child. And then comes the call to adventure. Did you ever look at it that way, those first feelings that you had that said, oh my gosh, I'm different, oh, my gosh, there's something unusual about the path that maybe I'm going to take in this world. I don't like this. I don't fit. Maybe the little boys say, I'm supposed to like girls and I like boys, and the little girls, I'm supposed to like boys, but I like girls are most confusing of all. Perhaps I know that I'm a boy, but I'm trapped in this girl's body, or vice versa. Joseph Campbell. Trouble shadows the home tribe. You hear it in the cries of our hungry children. Clearly, someone must go out beyond the familiar territory. A figure emerges from the campfire smoke, an elder of the home tribe pointing to you. Yes, you have been chosen as a seeker and called to begin a new quest. Well, what is the hunger of this tribe that might prompt such a call? Society, particularly our church, we know that not all is well in Zion. We know that there are many ills throughout entire society. I have always remembered a statement by an actor that I like, Alan Alda, who spoke at his daughter's college graduation, and he said, our world suffers from testosterone poisoning. Now, I'm not equipped to say exactly the kinds of new visions that our gay people can bring back that the tribe needs, but I know very much that they are there, that somehow many cultures look to their gay people as their shamans, as their healers, as their teachers. The Navajo speak of the two spirit. So what if there is some wisdom to this call to help heal the land? What if you, our hero, is called to help us see through new eyes this old and sometimes deeply troubled system of patriarchy? Step three, Refusal of the call. And every gay person that I have ever known has refused the call. I don't think that many people here, having heard those feelings of I'm different, say, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll go. Joseph Campbell says, gather your gear, fellow seeker. Some hesitate. Some are tugged at by families who fear for our lives. You hear people mutter that the journey is doomed from the should you stay with the home tribe? Are you cut out to be a seeker? Everyone says, don't go. And everything in you says, don't go. And so, as we know, you make every, every effort not to be gay. All of the prayer, all of the scripture study, all of the fasting, the missionary work, the doing what you're asked to do 200%, the attempts at marriage, all of these things that say, I will not take that journey. Meeting with the mentor, which is a wise old man or woman in mythology. So perhaps you, as the gay person, the gay hero, begins to study to say, what is this thing I am experiencing? Maybe you listen to the podcast of Bill Bradshaw on the biological origins of homosexuality. Maybe you speak to a therapist who wisely says, you know, this is your reality and you can walk this path well. Or maybe you learn that your loved drama teacher or your loved choir director is a gay person. And, wow, they're really a cool person. Joseph Campbell says, the shaman of the tribe presses something into your hand, a magic gift that will guide us on the quest. Now we can set out with lighter hearts and greater confidence, for we take with us the collected wisdom of the home tribe. And perhaps we remember that our people were Mormon pioneers and can serve as mentors to us along this journey. Step five, Crossing the threshold. Maybe here is where you fall in love for the first time and have an emotional experience that changes you forever. The guardian of the threshold may hold up one hand saying, stop, and another saying, come. And as Lee reminded us, here we have, don't partake of the fruit, do partake of the fruit. Joseph Campbell says there is no turning back now. The adventure has begun, for good or ill. So with a leap of faith, you, our gay or lesbian or transgender hero, acknowledges that as part of my identity, certainly not all of it, but as part of it, I am, I do experience myself as a homosexual human being or as a transgender individual. Step 6. Encounter. Tests, allies, enemies. I think the word ally was on the website inviting you to this conference. Hopefully, everyone in this hall is an ally, a friend to the gay people that we know. Joseph Campbell says that we seekers are in shock. This new world is so different from the home we've always known. Not only are the terrain and the local residents different, the rules of this place are strange, as they can be different things are valued here. Strange creatures jump out at you, Think fast, don't eat that. It could be poison. So here you figure out what does this mean to be a gay person. And as you have figured out, this can be very, very dangerous territory. And the pitfalls and the gullies and the brambles all along this journey, far too many get lost in the possibility of. Associating with predators, the possibility of succumbing to addictions. We know that gay people sometimes are more susceptible to addictions, to substance addictions, possibly to pornography. Feeling that Maybe promiscuous sexual behavior is what a gay person gets or wants. So many possible invitations to behavior that can be physically and emotionally and spiritually incredibly damaging. And much of this, of course, is our fault. Us being the home tribe, us being those who, to some measure, drew you outside of the circle of comfort where the wolves and the weather are very damaging. So here's where you figure out, who can I trust? What do I want to do? How do I want my life to look? Do I have to? And the gay person often has to reinvent the wheel. Certainly not as much as my former husband Gerald did in the 80s in San Francisco in that very damaging time. But this is where you have to figure out. And as was suggested here by Lee, here's where a lot of people give up the idea of spirituality altogether and decide maybe God is not really my ally. If there is a God, maybe God is my enemy. Because I've been told so much about what God thinks about me. That part of the journey is very, very challenging. Number seven. Approach to the Inmost Cave. And then eight. The Supreme Ordeal. Joseph Campbell, Seeker Enter the inmost cave. The way grows narrow and dark. You must go alone on hands and knees. And you feel the earth press close around you. You can hardly breathe. Suddenly you find yourself face to face with a towering figure, a menacing shadow composed of all your doubts and fears. It's death that now stares back at you. And this should surprise no one here. Most of the gay people that I hear from have at one time or another at least considered that suicide might be the best option for them. This is the crisis. Do I live or do I die? This is where all the doubts and fears and the demons that have been

Joseph Broom [00:50:47] fed

Carolyn Pearson [00:50:49] by all the dark and negative things that you have heard about yourselves. Here's where the demons try to bring you to your end. I was given permission by my dear friend Colonel o' Donovan to use his name, as I just described briefly his time with the Supreme Ordeal at a little out of the way place in Idaho where he, alone with a tent, a Bible and a shotgun, after years of doing everything that all of you have done to refuse the call, spent the time reading and crying and sobbing and praying and saying, dear God, if I am part of the plan, you must let me know soon. Because if I am not part of the plan, I will not be alive tomorrow morning. And Connell told me that he did have a most wonderful and personal remarkable experience in which God told him that he is part of the plan and he is deeply loved and to the great loss of my church. Connell, a year ago, was baptized in the Pacific Ocean into the United Church of Christ, where he told me they gave him an extravagant welcome. May the time come when my church might be able to do the same. Number nine. Reward. Seizing the sword. Joseph Campbell. We seekers look at one another with growing smiles. We faced death, tasted it, and lived. Strangely quiet now, in the leaping shadows, you remember those who didn't make it. And you notice something. You're changed. Part of you had died, and something new has been born. But wait, we're not finished. Number 10, the road back. What back? Well, Joseph Campbell. Wake up, seekers. Remember why we came out here in the first place. People back home are starving, and it's urgent that we load up our backpacks with food and treasure and head for home.

No More Goodbyes and Closing of Part One

Guest [00:53:23] Mmm.

Carolyn Pearson [00:53:23] Head for home. Gotta think about that one, huh? Perhaps you can't be part again of the ordinary world as you were at the beginning. Of course you can't. Maybe you won't want to be physically part of it at all, but somehow or other, you will need to find a connection, or at least peace with your Mormon community. The people back home need what you have to give them. Recently, I received an email from a Relief Society president in California who told me she was giving a lesson to her Relief Society from my book, no More Goodbyes, and I asked her to let me know how it went. She wrote and said it was wonderful that people lined up to speak to her afterwards to thank her. And at the stake, young woman's president wrote to her and said, oh, how we need that, and maybe talk to you more. We have so many questions in our stake about this. So you know, as I know, that our tribe is starving for information on this, starving for a way to expand their understanding and their love. Step 11, resurrection. Joseph Campbell, you must undergo one final sacrifice before rejoining the tribe. Your warrior self must die so you can be reborn as an innocent into the group. The trick is to keep the wisdom of the ordeal while getting rid of its bad effects. Wow. We could talk about that for a long time. To me, it suggests something like. Something like refusing to live a life of bitterness. Something about forgiving. Something about packing the hand cart with the precious things and throwing away those things that are not precious to you, but finding peace of mind with your family and with your community. Perhaps being an activist in a positive and not a negative kind of way, which we can do, brothers and sisters, because number 12, we have returned with the elixir. And so what is the elixir Here, Joseph Campbell. We seekers come home at last. Purged, purified, and bearing the fruits of our journey. We share the nourishment and treasure among the home tribe. A circle has been closed. You can feel it. You can see that our struggles on the road of heroes have brought new light to our land. And as it ends, it brings deep healing, wellness and wholeness to our world. The seekers have come home. Home. And here we have the chance to relate anew to our family, to our Mormon community, because indeed, we have the elixir. And you remember back in my turn on earth, Barbara and her friends, they were on a treasure hunt and they found the treasure also called the elixir. And they said, love, that's what it is. Oh, I found it because I love you. And I love you. And I love you. So for our journey, we have found the elixir, that substance capable of curing all ills. And for our gay heroes, it will not look exactly the same for each one. For many, they will be the warmth and the love of a committed relationship with the choice of your heart. And perhaps you too will at some point sing that little verse. Through the crash of the waves, I could tell that the words were romantic. Something about sharing, something about always. I look at the couples that I talk about in no More Goodbyes, and I have seen so many of them since, and I am thrilled at the love and the kindness that I see between them. Sikokie and Richard, Brett and Jeff, Guy and Trey, and a wonderful lesbian couple, Pat and Chris. That is one splendid form of the elixir of love. And there are others I had in my home, and I have corresponded with an older man who put away his homosexual feelings for many, many years, had a number of children, grandchildren, felt he could not do it any longer, divorced his wife, spent two or three years trying to find himself in the gay world, did not satisfactorily find a life there, and wrote to me just a few weeks ago. My wife and I are working at rebuilding our relationship and hope to get married again in the near future. We have always had a strong love for each other, but now I realize I can move forward with my life the way I feel. It will bring me the most joy and happiness and most important, peace of mind. Now, his decision is one that I can honor, and I know that the love that he shares with his wife, acknowledging that he is a homosexual man is one that for him is a choice that will bring him a great deal of peace of mind. And I do honor that some of our gay people will choose to stay with the church's requirements all their life to live a life of celibacy. My dear friend Mitch Main, who has had a lot of press these days being an openly gay man who has been put into a bishopric in a ward in San Francisco, making it clear that he is not certain that that will be his entire journey, that he hopes in the future sometime to be able to have a partner. At this moment, Mitch is having the time of his life in the church welcoming gay people who have become inactive in the church and want the fellowship in San Francisco. So there are various manifestations of this elixir of joy, which is something that we will all find as we complete the hero's journey. So, dear brothers and sisters, the curtain is up for your story. May you write it well. May you live it well. The tribe needs you. Do not let us down. You are our heroes. God Bless. Thank you.

Joseph Broom [01:00:57] Sa.

Guest [01:01:50] Cross of grief or pain leave to thy God. In every change all will remain. Be still my soul Thy best Thy heavenly friend through thorny ways leaps to a joyful end. By God of understand. To guide the future as he has the past Thy hope Thy.

Lee Beckstead [01:03:59] Ra.

Carolyn Pearson [01:04:24] Sa.

Guest [01:04:52] When we shall live forever with the Lord. Sorrow for God Most glorious choice.

Joseph Broom [01:07:05] This podcast was brought to you today by Mormon Stories Podcast and by the Open Stories Foundation. To learn more about LDS homosexuality, Please check out gaymormonstories.org Music on today's podcast was brought to you by the Sabre Rattlers. Take care.

Guest [01:07:28] Of Redemption will come when all that was promised the saints will be given and none will molest them. From morning till Eve and earth will appear as a garden of Eden and Jesus will appear say to all Israel, come home.

Part Two Introduction and Opening Remarks

Part 2 of 4 · Ep. 334

John Dehlin [00:00:00] The 2011 circling the wagons conference was a production of Mormon Stories Podcast and the Open Stories Foundation. For additional Circling the Wagons audio and video, and for additional content regarding LGBT issues within Mormonism, please check out gaymormonstories.org also please know that the video for this conference is available@YouTube.com mormonstories and and thank you for listening.

Guest [00:00:27] Now let us rejoice in the day of salvation. No longer as strangers on earth need we roam.

Joseph Broom [00:00:39] So I hope you all had a really nice lunch and you're all warm and happy to be back for our second general session. We feel like this is an overwhelming success for our first go at having a conference for our gay brothers and sisters here in the Mormon community. So thank you so much for your support and for coming. I want to thank definitely Carolyn Pearson and Lee Beckstead for their excellent addresses in our morning session and for all of the organizers and moderators for the breakout sessions. I hope they were all very enriching for all of you and I can't wait to hear about all of them. I kind of wanted to be at every single one of them. It was really hard to to only get to be at one. And I also want to thank everyone who's been participating in the filming of the It Gets Better videos. Kendall Wilcox and I have been organizing this for a few months now since we first came up with the idea on John Dylan's wall on Facebook and as all good Mormon stories ideas happen. So thank you for all those who prepared and if any of you are interested in working on it with us. Kendall is based in Provo and we can arrange for him, if you live in the Salt Lake area, to come and interview you. And we're also going to. I want to mention that there's a 30 minute break after this session before we go to our final session of the conference. And we'd like to be able to get just a few more interviews. So if everyone can, you know, work together to get out of this sanctuary so we can just, you know, know, mingle, go mingle elsewhere and kind of take a breather and walk around so that we can get a few more interviews, that would be awesome. And you'll have my personal thanks and I'll even hug you if you need it. And now I have the great pleasure of introducing our next speaker. I'm going to say that after we hear from our keynote address here with Jimmy Creech, there will be another musical number called For Good by Mark Packer and Tyler Cofoud. Did I say that? Right. And that's directly following our keynote address. So our next speaker for this general session is Jimmy Creech. We're so honored to have you here with us. Thank you so much for coming all this way to be with us when you're not even a Mormon. But I've been excited as I've really gotten to know a lot of LGBT issues. You know, a great part of coming out of the closet is you spend so much time, a lot of us, online, reading everything you can. And I even met a blogger here today that didn't. Doesn't live in Utah, or I guess he does now, but I spent hours reading his blog. I loved it, and I mauled him to death when I met him because I was so excited about, like, I felt like he was my friend. And so I think we can say the same thing about Jimmy Creech. He is definitely our friend and I'm so excited to hear his insights. By way of introduction, Jimmy Creech is a former United Methodist minister, now retired and living in Raleigh, North Carolina. He has worked with many social action organizations, including Soulforce, an interfaith movement confronting spiritual violence against lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender persons the Methodist Federation for Social Action, the Raleigh Religious Network for Gay and Lesbian Equality, and Faith in America, an organization working to end religion based bigotry. He has received the Flag Bearer Award from PFLAG national, the Human Rights Campaign Equality Award, the Saint Award presented by Metropolitan Community Church, San Francisco, the North Carolina Pride Incorporated Award, and the Lee and May Ball Award presented by the Methodist Federation for Social Action. He was selected as one of out magazine's out 100 in 1998 and 1999. We are so honored to welcome you here. Thank you. Let's put our hands together for Jimmy Creech.

Jimmy Creech Addresses the Conference

Jimmy Creech [00:04:59] Thank you. It's always exciting to be a part of history, and you folks are history. And not something old, but something new. That you're creating a moment in history that is going to be a very seminal moment, I think, in the life of the Latter Day Saints. And it's a pleasure and an honor to be included. I am grateful to John Daleen and all of the Mormon Voices organizers who extended the invitation to me and also especially to Joe Broom, who I met, I don't know if accidentally is correct or not, but. Or even by chance, in Durham, North Carolina, back in May when he was visiting. And Joe is the one who extended the invitation to me to be here today on behalf of Mormon Voices. And so, Joe, it's great to be here with you in your hometown. And I very much also appreciate Alan Miller's hospitality. He's allowing me to make his home my home while I'm here this weekend. As Julia indicated, I'm going to be speaking from my tradition, my perspective. I really cannot pretend to speak from any other, and my tradition is United Methodist. You know, it's one of those Protestant cults. So I'm speaking from my perspective today. I was a United Methodist minister for 29 years, ordained in 1970 and disordained unordained. I'm not sure what the media like to use the word defrocked, even though I did not have my clothes removed. But I was defrocked in 1999 by the United Methodist Church for what the church called the great crime of honoring the love between two people. I have written a memoir entitled Adam's Gift, and Adam's Gift tells the story. And it begins like this. I quit. I won't take it anymore. I'm leaving the church. Adam cried as he entered my office. I quickly went to him and asked him to have a seat on the couch, taking a chair across from him. He was in obvious agony, his body shaking with anger and grief. His eyes were red and swollen from crying, and they moved back and forth nervously between mine and the floor. He leaned forward, elbows on his knees, hands clenched in front of him, fingers interlocked so tightly that his knuckles were white. Why, Adam? Tell me what's happened, I said gently, trying to calm and comfort him. I won't be a member of a church that thinks I'm some kind of pervert that doesn't want me. I had no clue what he was talking about. Adam, I said. Tell me who said that. Who in our church thinks you're a pervert who doesn't want you? Didn't you read the paper this morning? Didn't you see what they did? I've been a Methodist since I was 10 years old. I've given the church my time, my money, and what do I get? I had, in fact, read the paper that morning. The Raleigh News observer, one of the state newspapers, reported on a meeting of the General Conference of the United Methodist Church meeting in Baltimore, Maryland. It had just the day before passed a new church law forbidding the ordination of what the church called self avowed practicing homosexuals. And I read that and it had no impact on me. I had no idea what that was all about. I was in a church in a small rural area of North Carolina, Small town. I thought that what was happening in Baltimore would have no impact on my Ministry. Until Adam came into my office, I didn't know what a self avowed practicing homosexual was. I never heard that language before. I thought perhaps it was a homosexual in training. I didn't know what that meant. The Methodists have some awkward ways with our language. We try to avoid saying things directly by using weird language. I'd known Adam for three years. He was a leader in the congregation. He was a leader in the community. He was an educator, a professional person. He was someone of great character. He was kind, gentle. I never thought of his sexual orientation, never considered that he was gay. But that morning he. He told me the truth about himself. Adam revealed to me a hidden world of oppression in which people who are gay, lesbian, transgender or bisexual suffer an insidious violence disguised as Christian morality that attacks their very beings, their very souls. It's a reality created and sustained by the claim that gay people are sick, sinful and criminal. A claim that is declared to be God's truth in pulpits, courtrooms, workplaces and schoolrooms, on playgrounds, athletic fields and street corners, and at family dinner tables. The cruelest aspect of this hidden world is that gay people internalize these demeaning proclamations and hate themselves for simply being who they are. It's a world they cannot escape and have little defense against except to hide their sexuality and pretend to be someone they are not, or to end their lives. Adam's words rushed from his soul like pouring through a broken dam. I listened with rapt attention, losing all track of time as he opened to me a whole new world. He told me that as a child he would hear preachers and others in the church talk about God's unconditional love, and then hear from those same people the irreconcilable message that God hates, rejects and condemns homosexuals to hell. He shared the story of his painful struggle to discover, understand and accept his sexuality. First running from the self he discovered and later trying and failing to be heterosexual. He talked about the shame and guilt he felt about simply being himself. He even told me that he had considered suicide, whence thinking that was the only way he could escape his homosexuality and demonstrate true repentance for it. He said that finally, after hating God and for condemning him, he had chosen to trust God's unconditional love. But this only made it possible to survive. It did not ease his pain or into shame. I was so overwhelmed by what Adam was revealing to me and so unprepared that I really didn't know how to respond fully. But there were three things I was certain of. And I told Adam, adam, there is no reason in the world why you should believe God does not love you. God loves you. You are a person of dignity and integrity. Don't let anybody tell you that God does not love you. The second thing I said was, I don't want you to leave the church. But if you are feeling abused, if you feel you have no control in power and you are being mistreated, then I support your leaving. Because no one should remain in an abusive relationship. No one should allow themselves to be mistreated. And then I said to him, adam, even if you're not a member of this congregation, I'll be your pastor as long as you want me to be. After Adam's visit, I thought about all the stereotypes I had learned about queers, the word we used as I was growing up, that they are dangerous people, psychologically sick and depraved, immoral. Adam fit none of these stereotypes. In fact, he destroyed them all for me. His humanity, his inherent dignity, the person I knew and loved destroyed those stereotypes. They would not allow them to continue any longer. There was no theological argument that persuaded me to change my mind and my heart. There was nothing about the Bible that changed my mind and heart. It was the humanity of Adam, alone in a moment, that changed my mind and my heart. My understanding of my call to ministry was that I was to help overcome any spiritual damage that anyone had experienced, anything that might cause them not to trust God's love, anything that caused them not to be able to love themselves, and anything that caused them not to love others, anything that stood in the way, anything that spiritually damaged them in any way. I suddenly found myself, because of Adam, his inherent dignity, his humanity, called to challenge my church, who was teaching people who are same gender loving to fear God because God was going to condemn them to hell, to hate themselves because they are somehow disordered, don't fit in, aren't healthy according to the church's teachings, and know that they would never ever be able to have a long term loving relationship with someone because of the church's teachings. My church was teaching lesbian, gay, bisexual people the very opposite of the great commandment that Jesus offered us. To love God, to love our neighbor, and to love ourselves. Well, I had this responsibility as a pastor. I could no longer go along with the teachings of my church because of Adam. I wasn't surprised that my church was doing harm to lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people, even though I was unaware of it until Adam came to talk to me that morning. I Had known that my church, along with other Christian denominations, had done great harm in the past to other groups of people in the South. My church, the United Methodist church, and others had used the Bible and Christian tradition and claims about God's will to justify slavery and racial segregation. It had also used those very same claims or appeals to those very same sources of authority to justify the subordination of women. I knew that my church had renounced its position that had done harm to people of color and also had renounced the teachings that had subordinated women that made them unequal to men in society. But still, we had that legacy. And what I heard and what I saw in the persecution of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people was an echo of what I had experienced as a child growing up in a racially segregated society and a society that held women in subordination, in a subordinate position. I knew that if I were going to be credible as a. As a pastor, I had to begin to equip myself to counter the traditional arguments about homosexuality being a sin and homosexuals going to hell. So I intentionally began a study, first of the Bible, then of human sexuality, and then of church history. My undergraduate degree at the University of North Carolina, where I have a new friend who is also doing graduate work there, was in biblical studies. But not once during the time I was there did homosexuality ever come up in any conversation or in any class. I then went to Duke to study for, prepare for the ministry, to go to divinity school. And there, during my three years, not once did homosexuality come up in any class or conversation. So I had always, basically, without any kind of critical reflection, accepted the claim that the Bible says homosexuality is a sin. So I needed to find out if that was true. We could spend all weekend talking about what the Bible says and does not say about homosexuality. But my conclusion is, and was at the time, that there is no legitimate use of the Bible to condemn same gender loving relationships. There is nothing in the Bible that legitimately can be used to condemn same gender loving relationships. Now I'm talking about the Hebrew and the scriptures in the New Testament. Now there are a few negative references to same gender sexual intimacy or behavior, and they all happen to be negative. But it has nothing to do with the orientation or sexual orientation of the people involved. It has to do with, for example, in the Sodom and Gomorrah story, violent rape. This is not about a loving relationship between two people of the same gender. It has to do with idolatry and the violation of rigid gender roles. That's what Leviticus is all about. If you listen carefully, in the 19th chapter of Leviticus, it says, you shall not lie with a woman. No, I'm sorry, I'm reversing it. You shall not lie with a man as with a woman. And all of my lesbian friends agree with that. You see, the Bible is a very patriarchal book. It assumes the reader is a male. It assumes the reader is a male. It assumes women will not be reading the scripture. Women probably could not read. And so that prohibition is directed to men. You shall not lie with a man as with a woman. And it's because men held a very superior role in society. Women were again inferior, subordinate. In fact, women were the property of men in the book of Exodus. When a man lists his property, he includes his cattle and his wives. So women were considered property of men in biblical times. And to treat another man as if that other man was a woman was to really do injustice to that man. So that's a part of what Leviticus is all about. Not anything at all about same gender loving relationships. And the first chapter of Romans is basically doing the same thing. It's talking about idolatry, not talking about same gender loving relationships. Greek is. Paul is looking at a Greek world where homosexual relations. Well, I shouldn't use that word because they didn't know that word back then. But same gender relationships were often practiced in non Jewish and non Christian contexts. And so he associated it with idolatry. He didn't understand it to be a same possib, the possibility of, of same gender loving relationship. So we have these biblical references. Very few. The Bible's very unconcerned about same gender relationships, sexual relationships. It's the modern world that's become obsessed with that and has begun to use these few phrases to do harm. So I then began a study of human sexuality. And again, my summary is that sexual orientation, whether it's towards someone of the same gender, someone of a different gender, or someone of both genders, is a natural, normal and healthy aspect of the human personality. It's nothing aberrant, it's not a disorder, it's nothing unnatural. It's very natural, it's very normal. It's just that we have a heterosexist perspective, a, a bias that we expect everybody to be heterosexual. There was no word for homosexual in biblical times. So you can't. It's actually an inappropriate question to say the Bible, to claim that the Bible says homosexuality is a sin. There was no comprehension of sexual orientation in biblical times. So when that question is, or that Statement is made, it's inappropriate, it's out of context. In biblical times, sexuality was sort of an external behavior that you take part in. Kind of like playing baseball or football. Didn't have anything to do with the personality. It had to do with your outside interests. That's how they understood sexuality. In the late 1800s, the new science of psychology began to understand that we are very complex in our personalities, in our makeup, and part of that is a sexual orientation. And that sexual orientation, just as our gender or our color or right or left handedness, is a natural, normal aspect of who we are. So to put it short, it's not a choice. Several years ago, I spoke at the national convention of the Log Cabin Republicans and there'd been some conversation just before, or someone gave a lecture just before about the biological and genetic basis for sexual orientation. So I began my remarks this way. I said, I'm really glad to be here. You know, I'm a Democrat and I'm. But it's still really good to be here. I want you to know that. When I learned there were gay Republicans, it was clear to me they had to be born that way. I said it, I said, who would choose? Who would choose to be a Republican? So. Where I found the basis for the prejudice that has dominated the Christian church for the last 2000 years was in the transition of the Christian movement out of the Jewish context into the Greek world. In the Jewish context, the human being is understood to be a unity of body and spirit. And the creation is a gift from God. And God declares the creation good. The physical world is good and we are a part of it. And our sexuality is a part of God's good creation. It's a gift to us. It was understood to be for lovemaking, pleasure sharing and childbearing. Sexuality is a positive. It's good. But when the Christian movement transitioned into the Greek world, it was influenced by some Greek philosophies that saw the world not as a unity, not as a whole, not as one reality, but as 2. Stoicism, Gnosticism and Manichaeism and some others saw the world divided into a physical world which was corrupt and evil and, and a spiritual world which was good. And sexuality was associated with the physical world because of the physical nature of it. And it was considered sinful by the early church. Sexuality, sexual desires, sexual intimacy were considered to be sinful. Augustine in the fourth century said that sexual desire is the foulest and most unclean of all human wickednesses. Sexual desire, he said, the only acceptable purpose or the only exception that makes sexual intimacy okay is procreation. But you can't enjoy it. It's a sin if you enjoy it. So you're supposed to close your eyes, hold your nose and do it and hope that something happens. I mean, that's sort of the attitude about sex back then. And that attitude continued. I mean, the early Christian church, the early leaders of the Christian church were celibate, ascetic men. Now, I've already mentioned how the Bible is patriarchal. Well, that didn't change when it moved into the Greek world. In fact, it got worse because women were associated with the physical world and men with the spiritual world. Women gave birth physical reality. Men had ideas supposed to be better than having birth spiritual. So men were associated with the spiritual world and women with the physical world. So out of this grew misogyny, a real contempt for women. In fact, the women that the only women that were celebrated in the early church were virgins and those who did not marry, those who were. Who had renounced their sexuality. Men blamed women for their own sexual desires, for their own sexual passions. Women were held in contempt and blamed for what men, the lust men felt inside. In the 13th century, Aquinas, Thomas Aquinas wrote sort of the. Finally put together all of the teachings for the Roman Catholic Church, and they became the official teachings of the Church. And he used not the teachings of Jesus or the Bible. He used the teachings of Aristotle for the basis of his ethics for the Church. Aristotle lived some 300 years before Jesus. A Greek philosopher, Aristotle taught that things are good when used according to their purpose, and they are corrupt and evil when used contrary to their purpose. And using the thought that was sort of laid down by the early church teachers like Augustine, Aquinas said, okay, the only acceptable purpose for sexual intimacy is procreation. And any sexual act that does not have the potential for procreation is sinful. And the sinfulness of it became very profound. In fact, it was associated with heresy. And once Aquinas teachings were accepted by the church, this was in the 13th century. Same gender loving people became the objects of abuse, great violence and death by the church and by society. It was really in the 13th century when same gender loving people began to be identified by definition as sinful. And not only persecuted physically, but began to be taught that what was natural to them was unacceptable both to the church and to God. And they began to be punished. And we began, we have begun, we have internalized that. It has impacted our common psyche, our common understanding of human nature since that very time. In my book, I summarize this in this way. The appalling truth is that the dominant expression of Christian sexual morality that shaped Western culture over the last two millennia, affecting both intimate relationships and social institutions, was formulated during the historical period known as the Dark Ages by celibate men who believed the physical world to be evil, held women in contempt, considered pleasure a vice, and equated sex with sin. They could not have taken us further from Jesus. The course they established led tragically in the wrong direction for the spiritual evolution of humanity. In spite of our vastly superior knowledge of human sexuality, we continue to be victims of their medieval ignorance, fear and prejudice, which are still embedded in the teachings of the Christian church and in archaic civil laws. Most tragic than the external violence done to bisexual, gay and lesbian people is the fact that they have been taught by the Christian church and the society that it has shaped for centuries to hate themselves because of their sexuality, because of who they are, and because of who they love. The Christian antipathy toward same gender sexual loving comes from the fear of sexuality, not from the Bible. Because of this fear, gay, lesbian and bisexual people have been oppressed, persecuted, and killed in the name of God and in defense of society. It's a scandalous and shameful history. Well, here I am, a minister in the United Methodist Church, and I've done this study and I've come to these conclusions. So what do I do? Well, let me tell you. I love the church. I love my church, the United Methodist Church. I am aware of the harm the Christian church has done over the last 2,000 years. But I'm even more aware and grateful for the good it has done. And I have committed myself to be a part of the church. And learning this in no way made me care less. In fact, it made me care more. It made me understand, first of all, an injustice that the church was perpetuating and had been responsible for for almost 2000 years. It also made me aware of the lack of integrity the church has when it wants to speak about God's love. The church has no authenticity when it talks about God's love and at the same time does harm to lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people. My passion is to help the church end the persecution, regain its integrity. So when you see things, I was really. I enjoyed both of. First of all, hearing Carolyn read her poem this morning, the Pioneer, and then hearing David's composition sung about. The feather that falls, the feather of truth that falls, and you have to follow it. You can't ignore it. You go where truth Takes you. And so that's what I found happening to me. I had no idea where I was going to go and what I was going to do. But I knew that my church, and the Christian church in general was doing great harm. And I could not ignore it and run from it. I had to begin to challenge it. And so I began publicly challenging my church, my denomination, and demanding that it change. Well, it wasn't popular and it wasn't easy. One of the things I did was the good fortune I had was to discover that in Raleigh, North Carolina, which was the church I served next. After 84, I went to Raleigh in 87, discovered some clergy who shared my same concern, and together we formed the Raleigh Religious Network for Gay and Lesbian Equality. We called it Ringle for short. The prominent voices coming out of the religious community at the time were really hostile toward lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people. And we were convinced that we needed to have a different voice, a voice of God's unconditional love, of full acceptance and affirmation. A voice that said to society that we needed to end not only the spiritual harm, but also the legal discrimination against lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgendered people. And so that was our mission, to be a public voice of God's unconditional love and a voice in support of the end of legal discrimination. One of the first things we did that was in March of 1988 was a conference we designed. We thought, well, first thing we need to do is sit around and talk about this and really understand it. So we sent out some flyers. We had a six week notice, sent out some flyers and had a conference, interestingly enough, at Pullen Memorial Baptist Church in Raleigh. Here we are at First Baptist in Salt Lake City. It's nice. The Baptists are wonderful. They get a bag and wrap because of the Southern Baptist Convention, but they are wonderful Baptist congregations around the world. We had a conference on homophobia and the Bible. At first we wanted to call it homosexuality in the Bible, but we really wanted people to know what we were going to talk about. So we changed it to homophobia in the Bible. And we thought we might have maybe 30, 50 at the most people. We had over 100 folks come with just a short period of time advertising. And they came not only from Raleigh, but from Virginia, South Carolina and Tennessee. We had just a big turnout. There were mothers with their gay children. There were children with their gay parents. There were siblings who had gay sisters or brothers and friends and neighbors of gay and lesbian people and just gay people by themselves because it was the first time they'd had a chance to talk. That's one of the reasons this is such a historic event today, to have a chance to talk together, to share your stories. There's power in that. There's power in that. It empowers us. So the next thing we did was to have to participate in a gay pride event. So we had our Raleigh Religious Network for Gay and Lesbian Equality banner out, and we were walking down the street. It was a wonderful event. In June of 1988, there was a lesbian marching band, you know, giving us the cadence to walk to up ahead. There were balloons all around. There was this group in front of us with a banner that said P flag. And I thought it was a Polish gay rights group. So I went up to see. I talked to them to find out what they were all about, and they explained to me that it was Parents and Friends of Families and Gays. It's the first time I'd ever heard of that. It was my introduction to that group. Wonderful collection of parents, siblings, aunts and uncles, neighbors who had gay people in their lives that they loved, and they were there in the streets of Raleigh to support them. It was a big turnout, maybe 3,000 people. Doesn't sound like much now, but back then, that was quite a bit. And behind us was a gathering from the St. John's metropolitan community Church. If you. I hope you know about the Metropolitan Community Church. Troy Perry founded that church in 1965, I think, or 64. And it's been. It's saved a lot of lives in this country, a lot of Mormon lives. I have to tell you. It's been extremely wonderful. But there's this small church in Raleigh, St. John's metropolitan community Church, and they were pulling a little red wagon that had a boombox on it, operated with batteries, and they were playing hymns and singing to the music. Jesus loves me this I know Blessed assurance Jesus is mine Just as I am I come. I don't know if these hymns are a part of your tradition, but they are hymns of great piety. A real confidence of our connection with God, the intimacy of the relationship that we have with God. And these were gay people and transgender people singing these hymns in public. There was a point in my ministry when I thought these very pious hymns were inappropriate, because they were just sort of like me and you God and the world can, you know, go to wherever, and really, all that matters is me and you. But when I heard lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender people sing Jesus loves me, this I know for the Bible tells Me so. And when I heard them sing Blessed assurance Jesus is mine oh, what a foretaste of glory divine and when I heard them sing, Just as I am without one plea but that thy blood was shed for me I come. Just as I am with my own integrity and my own dignity, without apology, without having to be ashamed, I come. And these were not some pious hymns. These were radical affirmations of a faith, a profound faith in God's unconditional love. As we walked down the street that day, there were two young men who walked on the sidewalk beside us. One had. Let's see, there's not a big cross in here. I thought maybe there was. One had this really large cross. It was probably 10 to 12ft long. And, you know, with the horizontal arms, maybe 6 to 8ft, dragging it down the sidewalk, just really struggling. Well, not really, because he had little wheels on the ends that rolled along, and I think it was made out of Styrofoam. But anyway, it looked really big, like a big burden. And he was dragging it down the sidewalk. And the other man had a big black leather Bible. And as we walked and as I looked at those wonderful folks in front of us who were parents and friends and listened to St. John's music from behind us, I heard this voice shouting, repent. No. Homosexuality is an abomination. Repent or be condemned to the fires of hell. Over and over, spitting those words out at us. We passed churches as we walked down Hillsborough street toward the old Capitol. It was a Saturday. The churches were closed, locked. The windows were dark. There was no. There was. There were no one. No. No one was out in front to give us hospitality, to offer us water, to say, you know, hi, we support you. Yards were empty. It was clear to me that day that God was not in the angry voices of the two men shouting at us words of condemnation. God was not in the empty churches with the dark windows and the locked doors. God was in the mass of prideful and good pride, healthy pride, people who affirmed their dignity, who had self esteem. God was in the mass of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people and their moms and dads, their family, Families. They loved them walking down Hillsborough Street. That's where God was. And that we were moving forward. We were not stuck. We were moving forward. And for me, that has remained the metaphor of this movement, of what we are about today, of what we are a part of right now, is that we are moving forward. And there are angry voices being shouted at us, and there are churches that are closing their doors to us. But we have to distinguish between institutions and God. For some of us, that's hard because often the only authoritative words about God comes from our institutions. But I want to assure you that God is not limited to the institutions. Whatever church you belong to, God is not limited to that church. God is free. And God always moves toward justice, towards freedom, towards equality, towards dignity and towards peace. May God bless you. Amen.

Sexual Prejudice and Christian Religious History

Reclaiming God's Love and Institutional Religion

Guest [00:45:38] First off, I'd like to thank our good friend David Naylor for accompanying us today. He's a wonderful friend, a great accompanist and a very talented composer. How many in the audience here have seen or are familiar with the musical Wicked? Good. Feel free to correct me. I'm going to give a little brief introduction to what we're going to be seeing today. Please raise your hand if I'm doing this wrong. I was able to see, after years of wanting to see Wicked on Broadway back in September and very much enjoyed the experience. This particular song for Good is right at the end of the musical and it basically describes the friendship that developed over many years between two of the main characters in the musical. Glinda, known as the Good Witch, and Elphaba, the one that was known as the Wicked Witch of the West. But actually, we find out in the story that it plays out in Wicked that Elphaba was really given a bad rap. She was kind of framed into being Wicked by the wizard and his horrible evil press agent. But that's basically the story. This is. This is the culmination of the story of their friendship that developed over many years and the effect that it had on each of their lives. And Tatar and I are very happy to sing this with you, and I'm privileged. I feel very fortunate to be sharing this with Taught her. My dear friend. He's going to be Glinda Einolphaba. Doesn't he look like Glinda?

Jimmy Creech [00:47:43] I've heard it said that people come into our lives for a reason,

Lee Beckstead [00:47:54] Bringing

Jimmy Creech [00:47:55] something we must learn and we are there to those that help us most to grow, if we let them and we help them in return. Well, I don't know if I believe

John Dehlin [00:48:17] that's true But I know I'm who

Jimmy Creech [00:48:21] I am today Because I knew you. Like a comet pulled from orbit as it passes the sun Like a stream that meets a boulder halfway through the

Guest [00:48:41] wood who can save I've been changed

Jimmy Creech [00:48:48] for the better but because I knew you. I have been changed for good.

Guest [00:49:08] It will may be that we will never meet again in this lifetime so let me say before we part so much of me is made what I've learned from you you'll be with me like a handprint on my heart and now whatever way our story's end I know you have rewritten mine by being my Like a ship blown from its mooring Like a wind of the sea Like a sea dropped by a skybird in a distant world who can say if I've been changed for the better but because I knew you

John Dehlin [00:50:17] Because I

Jimmy Creech [00:50:18] knew you I have been changed for

Carolyn Pearson [00:50:25] good

Guest [00:50:27] and just to clear the air I ask forgiveness for the things I know you blamed me for but then

Jimmy Creech [00:50:40] the CAs that we know there's blame

Guest [00:50:43] to share and none of it seems to matter anymore. Who can save? I've been changed for the better I

Jimmy Creech [00:51:17] do believe I have been changed for

Lee Beckstead [00:51:22] the better

Jimmy Creech [00:51:25] and because I knew you

Guest [00:51:30] Because I knew you

Lee Beckstead [00:51:34] Because

Guest [00:51:36] I knew

Lee Beckstead [00:51:38] you

Guest [00:51:41] I have been changed.

John Dehlin [00:51:58] Sa.

Joseph Broom [00:52:33] Who doesn't love that musical? Ah, so beautiful. Reminds me of like a very old blog post that I've. I've read before that John wrote comparing a lot of his own personal discoveries to the storyline of Wicked. And certainly there was one song of Elphabuzz that I used to listen to every day when I needed the courage to come out and be myself. So thank you so much. That was really beautiful. And thank you, Jimmy Creech, for your enlightening and inspiring words. We're so grateful to have you here. Next up on our program is a panel called Where Then Shall We Go? What does the Future hold for LGTBQ Mormons? On our panel will be Bill Bradshaw, a retired BYU professor that has been with us the throughout throughout this conference. Carolyn Pearson and John Dehlin is moderating. I'm also going to be sitting on the panel as a lesbian. And thank you. Applause, please. I mean, so if you can, please come on up. And while you do, I'm going to let everyone know that Jimmy Creech, the book that he was reading from and he's sharing with us, is for sale outside. Pick up a copy. Barnes and Noble has come here to help promote his book and we're so grateful to have heard excerpts. Can't wait to read more. There's a table full of books by Carolyn Pearson upstairs, also Emily Pearson, Brent Kirby, lots of information. And that's one thing that came up a lot last night with our workshop with Carolyn that resources. What are our resources in how to navigate these issues in Mormon culture? Tons of resources upstairs and with Jimmy's book also. So please feel free to grab one of those. And during the 30 minute break, especially because I'm kicking you out of here to do IGV filming. Okay, so John is going to be our moderator. And yeah, after that's done, then we'll have a 30 minute break. Thank you so much for being here.

Panel Discussion on the LGBT Mormon Experience

John Dehlin [00:54:50] Thank you, Julia. Lesbians.

Guest 1 [00:54:52] Whoo.

John Dehlin [00:54:58] Lesbian fight song. We need a fight song. So Jim debacis was scheduled to be on this panel. He contacted me at lunch and said that he had an important lunch engagement that he had to be at. He's not here yet, so we're going to hold that spot open for him. But if we have to excuse him, we know that he's about important business, so we honor and respect him. And for those of you who weren't able to attend last night, Jim honored us with just a beautifully humorous and interesting retrospective on his life and in his involvement in negotiating with the LDS Church to ultimately pass some city ordinances that. That were favorable to the LGBT community specifically. I think it had to do with housing and other types of discrimination ordinances. So hopefully Jim will sneak in here. If he doesn't, that's okay, because the way that I've envisioned kind of this panel working, we have a few people up here in addition to Julia, who's holding down the lesbian front, as she said, the wing. The reason why I have Bill and Carolyn up here for a couple reasons. Carolyn represents someone who was married to a gay man for many years, as probably all of you know. So she has that experience with her. And of course, she's been an advocate for LGBT issues, and she's spoken with, I would guess, thousands of gay and lesbian members of the church over the years. And so I think she probably has a lot of wisdom and experience. I also know, and she won't admit this, or she certainly wouldn't brag about it, but there are probably people in positions of influence that do call her and seek her advice. And so I think that she, you know, has a lot of wisdom and perspective on how the church might be changing or might think about changing in the future. And I think Bill fits into that same category. He also has a wonderful gay son who is here with us today, Brett. But he's also now done a lot of work on the biology of homosexuality. We're conducting a pretty in depth research study on the LGBT Mormon experience that we're doing together. And of course, I think he's probably counseled with hundreds, if not thousands of not only LGBT individuals, but also parents through his work at Family Fellowship. So it's a great panel Jimmy, thank you. I should have mentioned it. Thank you so much for your presentation as well. So what we want this to be is a dialogue between you guys and us. Want to ask a couple favors. We're gonna, we're gonna invite the audience at times to come up and ask questions or to provide insight in this conversation, but we wanna make sure that nobody talks for too long. Please don't, you know, try not to tell really long stories or insight. We wanna give lots of people time to talk. So if you're going to come up and make a comment or ask a question, let's make sure it's kind of really pithy. If possible, we're gonna share a microphone between our panelists here and you, and it's going to be this wireless mic here. We'll probably need to turn that on. So if you come up to ask a question or to share a brief comment, you'll actually. If someone wouldn't mind volunteering to maybe just run the microphone between someone who might come up to ask and then back to the panel, that would be helpful. So anyone who's willing to do that, we'd love that. Thank you, Hugo. Okay, so one of the things that Jimmy Creech. Sorry. That Jim debacis mentioned yesterday in his really insightful comments as he reflected on his interactions with the First Presidency and the quorum of the 12, I'm assuming at the highest levels of the church on how to deal with this issue, one of the things that he mentioned is he, he likes to focus on how far we've come. And so I think that would be a great way to set the tone for this conversation. And so I guess I'm going to throw that first question to the panel and we can start maybe with Bill and then go to Carolyn and then to Julia. But let's start by just sort of doing a quick summary reflection on how far we've come as a church in terms of how we deal with our LGBT brothers and sisters. So let's start with Bill. If you could just give us a few thoughts on that.

Lee Beckstead [00:59:39] The history that Jimmy described for us is such that it wasn't any better in Paris in 1961. I want to read something to you. The issue was human intelligence and how to measure it. And the Germans came first with experiments on brain size. And the Germans felt this way. By its rounded apex and less developed posterior lobe, the Negro brain resembles that of our children. And by the protuberance of the parietal lobe, that of our females, the grown up Negro partakes As regards his intellectual facilities of the nature of the child, the female and the senile white. Broca wanted to give numbers to brain size to confirm his clear contention that intelligence was a hierarchy among human beings. He found with his measurements that the brains of women were smaller than the brains of men. It had been suggested to him that perhaps this was a matter of size, and he ought to normalize his data on the basis of the fact that women were generally smaller than men. He said, in regard to this, we might ask if the small size of the female brain depends exclusively upon the small size of her body. But we must not forget that women are, on average, a little less intelligent than men, a difference which we should not exaggerate, but which is nonetheless real. We are therefore permitted to suppose that the relatively small size of the female brain depends in part upon her physical inferiority and in part upon her intellectual inferiority. Now, for any of you in the room who are not yet angry, here's one more. In the most intelligent races, as among the Parisiennes, there are a large number of women whose brains are closer in size to those of gorillas than in the most developed male brains. This inferiority is so obvious that no one can contest it for a moment. Only its degree is worth discussion. All psychologists who have studied the intelligence of women as well as poets and novelists, recognize today that they represent the most inferior forms of human evolution and that they are closer to children and savages than to an adult civilized man. They excel in fickleness, inconstancy, absence of thought, logic and incapacity to reason. Without doubt, there exists some distinguished women very superior to the average men. But they are an exceptional as exceptional as the birth of any monstrosity, as, for example, of a gorilla with two heads. Consequently, we may neglect them entirely. What else can one say except viva la France? I want to be a gay advocate, an ally. I don't want to be an ally in the spirit of the white man's burden. Kipling, in his poem at the turn of the last century in regard to the United States involvement in the Philippines, a phrase that has come to embody justification of a patronizing, condescending view. To other people, Some things are self evident. The Jewish man was heard to say, I've been rich and I've been poor. Rich is better. But with regard to matters of homosexuality, things are not self evident. How do I approach my latter day saint brothers and sisters who, without special circumstances, don't have a reason to be informed? Marge and I were in Boston on my Sabbatical leave and we went to PFLAG meetings in the basement of the Unitarian Church in Arlington. And one day we went to the Pride Parade in downtown Boston. And there were 300,000 people there and this one little Mormon mom and dad holding hands. And just before the little PFLAG group from Arlington came by, there was this big flatbed truck that came by. And first there was the music, and it was loud and obnoxious. This from a person who, with the exception of the Beatles, decided that good popular music died with Nat King Cole and Perry Como. And one of the most astounding economic feats I've ever seen. They were able to clothe 25 men with about a half a yard of fabric. And there are a lot of people in my High Priest quorum who have similar feelings. All right, but why do they have to flaunt this? Just let them be what they want to be and don't put it into my face. One of the most significant attributes of human beings is the capacity for imagination. With it, we can think about things that might be. We can put ourselves mentally into the position of others. I think perhaps that the highest expression of this is in the Savior and in our attempt to understand how he was able to descend below all things in order to understand all things that he might be for us.

Guest 1 [01:06:56] Truth.

Lee Beckstead [01:06:59] That's imagination. In my Latter Day Saint community, people invoke this atonement of Jesus Christ as a mechanism for gay and lesbian people to change. I would suggest something else. If the capacity of the Savior to enact the atonement was in part an exercise of divine imagination, then we might, instead of invoking the atonement as consumers as a way to have divine power exercised in our behalf if what we ought not to do instead is, like the Savior, exercise imagination so that we understand that the pursuits of our gay and lesbian and transgendered and queer brothers and sisters are no different than our own. I tried once to say it in these words. Those not closely acquainted with gay people may not have concluded that they are capable of the same type of romantic feelings that characterize heterosexual love, something in addition to urges of a sexual nature. Nevertheless, that is true. Falling in love can have the same positive, emotional, spiritual and moral qualities for a homosexual couple as for a heterosexual couple. Homosexual love is not counterfeit. What do Latter Day Saints and others who are in a committed gay relationship do? They get up in the middle of the night to care for a sick partner? They fix dinner out of turn when the person they love has had a bad day. They sacrifice in order to provide opportunities for the growth and development of their children. They resist the temptation to be unfaithful. They send flowers. They coach Little League baseball teams. They say, I'm sorry. They help in buying the groceries. They plant flowers and mow the lawn. They delight in the success and achievement of the one to whom they are devoted. They do their best to express the deepest feelings of their heart. When they say, I love you, I commend our efforts to try to get our Latter Day Saint friends and neighbors and loved ones to exercise some degree of imagination in the same way that the Savior certainly must have in order to comprehend all of the concerns of his mortal brothers and sisters. We're moving a little bit better in that direction than we have in the past, John. I hope we can do better. I hope the Lord grants me a little more time to try to further that effort.

Carolyn Pearson [01:10:05] Bill, thank you for that and for all of the ongoing excellent work that you have done for so many people. So being both a woman and a poet with a teeny, teeny, teeny little

Joseph Broom [01:10:16] brain,

Carolyn Pearson [01:10:27] I'm going to make a really small little introduction to this panel to the idea of where are we going and what seems to be the future of our church. And I, too, appreciated the wonderful historical overview that Jimmy Creech gave to us. And being devoted to history, as I am, I know, well, we all know where history is going. We know that we're not going to decide, oh, that was a mistake to give women the vote after all. Or, hey, how about we re instigate some segregation? You know, we're not going to do any of that stuff. And in terms of how we treat our gay and lesbian and transgender brothers and sisters, we're not going to go backward in society or in our church. And certainly in the last three decades since I have been deeply involved, I have seen a lot of change in the consciousness and in the expressions in the church around this issue. You know, so today we've had a bishop fly in for this conference. Did you know that? I mean, that wouldn't have happened a couple of decades ago. We have all kinds of things going on. Those of you who are not aware of the good work done in my stake, go to my website and see the link there. And not only in my state, but there are a lot of places where down here at the bottom, individuals, families, bishops, stake presidents are saying, wow, okay, this is the social issue, spiritual issue, too, on the table for us. What can we do about that? Looking at the future, I know that every church must continue in some measure, slowly or more rapidly to offer greater understanding and acceptance and nurturance to our gay and lesbian transgender brothers and sisters. Or those churches, including my own, will become less and less relevant in the world. However, I believe that our churches and I believe that my church is up to the challenge and not just because it is a necessity. And if anything, my church is practical. When push comes to shove, my church is practical. But not only that, I have a lot of confidence in the good hearts, the good spirits of the Mormon human beings down here in the congregations and in positions of leadership. So I for one am just really excited and interested, not only just to watch, but as you know, to participate. Because history doesn't happen of its own. History happens because you and I do something and because we are all going to do something. Whether it's small and perhaps unnoticed or whether it's big and pretty noticed, we're all going to do something. And just by your presence here, you are doing that much. But I have good confidence in the history, the future of the human family and of the Mormon family.

Joseph Broom [01:14:04] I feel somewhat intimidated to be sitting next to these two, what experience and wisdom they bring to this page panel I was reminded of one of the I'm a violinist in Boston and one of the primary gigs that I have a regular contract is with an orchestra, the Portland Symphony. And I was recently at a strategic planning meeting there. I'm a brand new member of the orchestra, I'm in my second season and most of the people who participate in these things have a lot more what they term institutional memory than I do. And I remember feeling like I'm trying to figure out what's going on, how you relate to this person, how that person relates to that in each department of the organization and kind of regretting that I didn't have, I didn't understand the history so well, but also feeling like I had so much to add because of my youth and enthusiasm and very fresh experience with just getting out of conservatory and having all this passion to bring to a music profession without maybe some of the jaded, you know, cynicism that comes with facing hard realities in the profession. And I feel a little bit that way as a very, very recently out lesbian in this scene in the Mormon gay scene and so in awe and grateful of the work of Carolyn and Bill and what they've been contributing for years and years so that I can do what I'm doing today, making and it gets better video with Kendall Wilcox and coming here from Boston and being so out in public. And I definitely, as I told Joanna Brooks the other night, that this conference is even happening is hard evidence that things are getting better. And for me personally, coming out, it's hard for me to imagine coming out without organizations like Mormon Stories, where I was able to find a community of support when I needed it, and finding Mormons who could help me affirm my Mormon ness and my gayness, which were so important to. To do both. And with that, I feel I have so much energy to put into this community, and I'm so grateful to be here. And I also was just tearing up as he was reading all of these mundane things that we do in our relationships that I've been astounded in the year and a half that I've been with my partner, how similar it is, how mundane our relationships are, just as much as all of these heterosexual people who think that we shouldn't be able to get married. But it's like all of those, you know, getting up in the middle of the night or, like, you know, cooking dinner for someone when they have a bad day and saying, you're sorry. And I just wanted to, like, cry, because that's exactly what I love about being able to have a partner, to be able to be out in America, to be out in my homeland of Utah, to come here and to share all this with you and with my family. It's definitely getting better.

John Dehlin [01:17:25] Thank you. So now that we've acknowledged kind of the good, let's see if we can just take a moment to identify if there are a few kind of areas of deep pain or areas where the biggest changes maybe need to take place. What might those areas be? Let's kind of identify them. Does that make sense? So if we could pick just one or two things that come to the top of your mind on the most significant changes that the church, you know, might consider, what would those be? And this time, we'll have Carolyn start.

Panelists on Change Within the Church

Carolyn Pearson [01:18:12] The thing that sprang. Did you say me first?

Guest 2 [01:18:14] Sure.

Carolyn Pearson [01:18:15] Oh, okay. I could have watched my teeny little brain, because sometimes I miss things.

John Dehlin [01:18:22] Bill, will you help her if she gets lost?

Carolyn Pearson [01:18:26] This is my priesthood supervisor here, so he can keep me in line. The thing that sprang to my extraordinarily sensitive brain and brilliant personhood is that I think that something our church needs to do right away is simply better to give parents permission to love their gay and lesbian children, absolutely, unequivocally. Now, it's a shame that I should even have to say that, but we do need to say that, because there are so many parents who are so caught right between, in this position that is absurd to believe that they have to choose between the church and the children. And you know how many wonderful families our church has lost because, you know, we teach family really well. And so one of the unintended consequences of that is that very often when push comes to shove, the family will choose the gay person and turn from the church that gave them the idea that family comes first. So I look forward to hearing hopefully, at some long overdue point out of general conference from the highest level, statements that are unequivocal that say parents never, never, no matter the circumstances, withhold your love or your presence from your gay and lesbian or transgender children. That is so long overdue. So that's the first thing that I'd like to contribute here.

Lee Beckstead [01:20:36] We as a people and the church as an institution can stop inadvertently or intentionally. Saying things that are not true about homosexuality or supporting those who perpetuate mythologies. Broca, with his brain studies, didn't even try to make amendments to his brain studies on whether or not women might have inferior intelligence because everybody already knows that it's true. Mormons and Americans in general know what is true. You're gay because you had a distant father who wouldn't go out and play football with you. So mom compensated by being smothering and overly protective. And we raised the specter of Freudian nonsense to support things that are false. Gay people don't choose. None of us chose our orientation. Last Saturday, I was having a conversation with a prominent psychotherapist who attempts to help gay and lesbian Latter Day Saints to change. And he says, well, I'm quite confident that you could persuade a straight man to be gay by the proper counseling. Horse feathers or some other part of the horse. The church should not invite its leaders to go to meetings and make statements that are demonstrably wrong. The correct information is available. If the people who are advising the church are uninformed, then there needs to be different advisors. There need to be more people who, in high priest meeting, stop and say, brother Smith, that's wrong. Please do not denigrate God's children by saying things that are false. I'm sure there's a lot of other things we might commit to do. I've used up my moments.

Joseph Broom [01:23:40] Kind of hard to pick one, especially in the context of. With Mormon stories and a lot of the different issues that Mormon stories deals with, not just lgbt, why people leave the church. There's a lot. There's a big feeling of wishing that the Church would just say, all right, we were wrong, sorry, we're changing course now. But everyone knows that's not their style, including Jim DeBake. He was pretty articulate about that last night. In how this huge institution affords change. I think I agree with you, Bill, that we need better education. I can say that about a lot of different issues and mental illness, things that bishops are ill equipped to deal with. And families, as you said, like parents need to know from their leaders who they trust so much that it's not only should they love their children, but that it's not their fault. I think there's such a complexity, an emotional complexity to the coming out process with relationships and our families and our friends that certainly in my experience, I was, I couldn't handle all of it on my own. And if there's a way to retract some of the harsh rhetoric that we've been spoon fed from infancy, that is wrong. But to know that as families, we can do this together.

John Dehlin [01:25:33] So, yes, if you come up, if you'll come up here, I think there's something else that priesthood leaders, relief Society presidents, fathers and mothers can do. We can honor the relationships that our gay brothers and sisters have with each other. We can honor those relationships. We can respect their sexuality. And, you know, it's about time that Adam and Steve can skip off to the temple as well. And we need to let them know

Guest [01:26:25] that

John Dehlin [01:26:28] until our relationships, our honored relationships, we don't have the whole pie. And it's time that that's heard in the church. So I thank you, John. And I've heard, you know, lots of people talk about different things that can be done. One, one very reasonable change that I envision is in states where marriage is legal, that or even in whenever there is a legally gay married couple, why can't that couple hold callings in the church and kind of be fully legitimate members? You know, another option is, you know, that what some people see as kind of the nuclear bomb option is allowing, you know, gays and lesbians to be married in the temple. A lot of the people that I talk to when they're kind of speculating, say that's just never going to happen. The church will dissolve before that happens. But there are accommodations that could be made short of that. I can see why separate, you know, is not equal and why having only a piece of the pie is just going to be unacceptable for many because they'll feel like second class citizens. But here's my question. We can envision changes like allowing gay couples to have callings, statements made at general conference, and even, you know, the dream of all dreams for some, which would be temple marriage. But you have to kind of, as Jim Debacis mentioned yesterday, you have to put yourself in the shoes of the brethren. Joseph and Brigham and whoever else left us with a set of doctrines and teachings. The canon is pretty much closed. In theory, we're open to new revelation, but, you know, the only things that we seem to have received, you know, in this century or, you know, the previous century are kind of clarifications or the rolling back of certain teachings instead of new innovations and new sections to the doctrine of covenants. And so I want you just to kind of use your creative imaginations to put yourself in the shoes of the brethren. You want to make a change. You don't want there to be pain. You see that your 20s and 30s somethings are leaving the church in droves. You realize that you're probably on the wrong side of history, but you also have to protect the prophetic mantle. You have to protect your authority. You have to protect the doctrine and the theology that you inherited. You can't just like change it all and become like other institutions that have become weakened by making too much accommodations too quickly. And so if you were to put yourself in the shoes of the brethren, not to tell them what to do, but just to have this be a brainstorm for what might be possible, what in the world changes could they make if the two rules are they can't, you know, significantly decrease the active membership, for example, making the conservatives want to leave the church because that's an accommodation they don't want to make or to result in kind of people paying less tithing. We get too liberal, we get too progressive, and all of a sudden people don't take the church as seriously. And you've weakened the church. So how could the brethren make accommodations in ways that won't weaken the church and have to roll back sections of the Doctrine and Covenants or the Proclamation on the family, leave egg on our face.

Carolyn Pearson [01:29:59] May I just say that you have heard me reference my Oakland stake a number of times and I want to, in case anybody is concerned, my stake presidency have never said or done anything that would contradict church teaching whatsoever. But within those parameters, they have done a lot of really significant things. They went around to all of the wards, combined relief Society priesthood, giving lessons on how better to understand and love our gay brothers and sisters, bringing in a bit of science, bringing in some. And then we have had various other things after that. But I don't want to take the time. You can go to my website and look at the document that details much of this. And in the San Francisco ward where Mitch Main is in the executive secretary now in the bishopric, they are just simply doing an outreach to invite gay members in San Francisco who have dropped out, who want to come back. Just saying, just come and sit with us, just be with us. This doesn't contradict any church doctrine. Anything is just a first wonderful step to say, look, just come be with us and let us know who you are. And within the existing parameters, there's a lot that can be done. And you know, this journey, what's that wonderful statement that, you know, the journey of a thousand miles begins with one step. So the one step of the safe thing to do, another step that is invited after that one. And then we won't know what step 10 is until we conscientiously and with all the inspiration that we can get, take steps one and two and three, and then we'll know what the next steps are. But to do that with a combination of patience mixed with urgency, because lives are at stake and family relationships are at stake. But one step at a time, as quickly as we can.

Personal Stories of Coming Out in the LDS Church

Joseph Broom [01:32:16] As I was thinking about, because I very recently stopped going to church, I guess it's been about a year and a half now, and it coincided pretty much directly with coming out. And I think I can say honestly the two of the main reasons why I didn't feel comfortable in an LDS chapel anymore, even though I called that my home my whole life, was because I didn't feel safe and I didn't feel acknowledged. I felt invisible. And I think that that's. That fixing those two things require an even more generous effort to reach out to gay people, to acknowledge them, to accept them as they are and not make assumptions like a heteronormative assumption about them. And that takes a lot of initiative for communities individually and depending on how motivated individual wards and stakes are by focusing on what the brethren say. And I'm really in awe of what your stake has done, Carolyn, and that example. And like you said, this urgency. And I think, because I think, you know what would make me go back to church now? And it would definitely be if I could feel. Go into the building and not feel like I was invisible and that people were looking at me and didn't know that, you know, didn't know and didn't want to know that I had an amazing partner and I couldn't be open and honest about that wonderful experience. And how it's transformed my life and my space, spiritual life also, and be able to bring that to the table. And I want to be able to share that with people. And as Bill was saying, all those mundane things, all of that love and all of those lessons and guidance that I receive in my relationship are exactly the same things I was taught my whole life to seek for. And that's part of why it's so fulfilling. And I get so emotional being able to participate in it now. So I think those two things of. Of with coming and I guess depending on how motivated each congregation is by leadership, coming from leadership, but also with members to make gay people feel safe and acknowledged and visible.

Lee Beckstead [01:34:41] I don't think that there's anything that's important in the church that is in jeopardy if we start living as Christians. Church doesn't have to give in on anything that's important. The Latter Day Saints have to start acting and behaving in the way that we talk and can't accept the loss of the best and the brightest of our young people as somehow collateral damage acceptable to. In defense of the indefensible.

Carolyn Pearson [01:35:29] Thank you, Bill.

John Dehlin [01:35:35] Ron. I should mention while Ron's walking up here, Ron was one of the first people I ever contacted about LGBT issues. He produced two or three videos along with, I think, Bill and some others that are on ldshomosexuality.com that tell some wonderful stories. So, Ron, I just want to credit you with all the work you've done. Thank you for it.

Guest 2 [01:35:55] Thank you, John. Great to be here. This is a beautiful facility, a beautiful chapel. I want to tie in with something Carol Lynn said, and that is what's happening with Ms. Main's ward and stake is happening in a way, in this valley. And you are all invited. And hate to be a broken record, but this Fireside is next Sunday. It's an LDS chapel and you're all invited. And the intent is to make every gay and lesbian person and their family and their loved ones welcome in an LDS church. So there's announcements on the table right out here. And it's the same kind of thing that's going on in Carolyn's area.

John Dehlin [01:36:50] Who's sponsoring that? Ron? Who's sponsoring the event?

Guest 2 [01:36:54] The Stake the Country. Excuse me. The South Jordan Utah Country Park Steak. I'll give you the address.

John Dehlin [01:37:03] What's the title?

Guest 2 [01:37:04] It's 1988 West 1100, 400 south in South Jordan.

John Dehlin [01:37:10] What's the title of the event?

Guest 2 [01:37:11] It's the Outreach Fireside. That's. That's based on. No one is ever outside. So there are some things happening and we can help make it happen. I think it goes in also goes along with what you were saying, Carolyn, about the heroes journey. And at a certain point, the heroes come back to their community and we can be part of that.

John Dehlin [01:37:53] Wait in the microphone, please.

Guest 2 [01:37:55] You can see this is a website called gay mormonforum.org gaymormonforum.org and it tells about what's going on and San Francisco. It has links to Carol Lynn's work. It has all of the far sides that have been going on in the church. It has what's going on in. BYU, which is a weekly meeting being held within the auspices of the church.

John Dehlin [01:38:27] That's the Understanding Saints.

Guest 2 [01:38:28] That's Righty's group.

John Dehlin [01:38:29] Yeah. Thank you, Ron. Two very brief comments we have here and then in the back. Please make them really brief because we're. Because we're out of time.

Guest 1 [01:38:41] Well, as we can see, things are bubbling up from below with changes, and that's one of. So I have two points to make, and the first would be that it always concerned me that as I started researching issues, because of my own issues, that I discovered that other churches had much more open dialogue on this issue. It didn't come from the top down as much, where you had the feeling everything was always discussed behind closed doors, and maybe you were the last to know about that. So for me, there needs to be much more open dialogue between membership and the church and between leadership in a very public way, which is what I've seen occur in other churches. The other thing is, I'm originally from Johannesburg, South Africa, and when I was married originally in. In Johannesburg, there was no temple there. We could have flown and gone to the London temple, but I was still a student at byu, so we flew out and came over here, but we had to be married within our own chapel, our own ward. And it was a civil marriage, or if you want to call it a civil union. I think a very simple solution on the way to maybe temple marriage, if that ever happens, would be to say, well, we'll create a place of safeness and respect for our gay and lesbian couples who are in loving, committed relationships. By allowing them to be married in our chapels, you do not have to. You know, we don't have the answers right now. We haven't had a revelation. They can say whatever they want. But that's a step. And I think it would be a step that would make a much safer

John Dehlin [01:40:16] climate in some respect, beautiful here. And then Marielle

Lee Beckstead [01:40:24] Yeah. About the leaders and what they can do.

Jimmy Creech [01:40:28] One ideal that me and my wife,

John Dehlin [01:40:30] we exercise is truth is truth.

Jimmy Creech [01:40:33] Tradition is there. Cool, fine. If that works for you, cool. But if it's not working,

John Dehlin [01:40:40] just cut it off. Just cut it out.

Lee Beckstead [01:40:43] Truth is truth. Who cares, really?

Carolyn Pearson [01:40:51] Like Carolyn mentioned, I want something practical. I want the church that I love to stop being an opponent of friends and family members that I love. I want my church to stop being an opponent of LGBT people.

John Dehlin [01:41:10] Thank you, Mary Ellen. Mary Ellen is one of the heads of Sunstone, and she has a booth here. I hope you guys will visit her in a few moments. So we've touched. Thank you, everyone, for your comments so far. We have a few minutes left. I guess the next step is to extend a little bit some of the comments that have already been made. The question is, what can we as members do to help? And of course we can. So we've heard we can speak up in our Quorum and Relief Society meetings. That's significant. What else can we do? Practically these people sitting here in the pews, what can we do? And others who are listening to help effect change in material ways.

Joseph Broom [01:42:10] I think what I realized when I was trying to decide what I was going to do about coming out was that I wasn't doing any good with this issue by staying in the closet. Nobody knew I was gay. They could love me, but they didn't know that about me. They didn't know that they knew a gay person. They didn't know that they loved a gay person. They didn't know that, you know, getting hugs from me every Sunday meant they were hugging again. Gay person. They didn't know that. And, you know, part of me regrets that I still don't really feel safe and acknowledged going to church so that I can continue to do that. But I'm open to it for the future, for sure. So I think for us, coming out is a huge part of it. And being open and loving and honest about who we are is one of the best things we can do. And I. And I have to say that in the Mormon Church, the straight people have the power. I'm sorry, but it's true. We are disenfranchised. And especially as a lesbian, I mean, I didn't have much of a voice to begin with. I was a woman in a patriarchy. So, you know, that was another reason I was like, well, I guess I'm done here. I have no voice. So I need my straight allies. I need them so much. And I'm so grateful for the work that they've done, that they do speak up in their meetings, that they. Carolyn's written books that Bill and his wife have been huge advocates for us. Because I don't have a voice historically in Mormon context, both as a woman and as a gay person. So your voice is so valuable, I can't even tell you. And I want to be. I want you to be my ally.

Carolyn Pearson [01:44:07] As you may know, I am very devoted to the written word. And I think that one thing everyone here can do is to do a little writing, to write some letters to those that you feel to be in the line of authority above you, from your bishop on up to the prophet, to express your feelings on what you see going on around you and what you feel and to say, I know that this is a hard issue for you, and I just want to encourage you to do the very best you can and as quickly as you can. Because what we are doing right now is not working. And if it is a little risky for you to have a conversation with your bishop or stake president, take the risk. Anyway, Another thing that. And this is not a part of our stake project, this was just me and a friend that popped up surprisingly, in my ward to be an ally with me. We had the blessing of having on our ward list right there in print, a gay man, Clark Pingree. He's been very open and very out and many of you would know him. And I introduced him all over the place. And I began to have little private gatherings in my home to have come have supper with Clark Pingree, this gay man on our ward list. We had wonderful, about six little get togethers before Clark moved away. So, and it was really, really lovely just coming have supper and then conversation to find out what it's really like to grow up gay in the Mormon Church. And I created a little website around that called Proposition Healing that has a few suggestions on how to go about. So you see, every one of you could, whatever your circumstance or your connections, invite your gay friend and some of the people in your ward or family or whatever to come over specifically to have a conversation around getting to know the experience of what it's like to grow up gay in the Mormon Church. We can all do that. And I'm sure everybody here could say, oh, and it could also, oh, and then there's. Yeah. So just let these ideas start to generate.

Lee Beckstead [01:46:42] I don't have any more advice to offer, but I would like to, as I look out into your faces, to express the most heartfelt gratitude that I'm able for how my life and the life of my wife have been enriched by your company. The goodness and the decency and the morality and the competence and the love of my gay brothers and sisters is overwhelming to me. I thank those dear people who are parents. Whose company is so critically important to Marge and I, a place where we go to be loved and to be honored and to be grateful. Kathryn I will always I will go down to my deathbed remembering what you say that every mother deserves to have at least one gay son. Thank you all for your for the way in which you have made my life better. And may we all find ways to spread that feeling. Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:48:41] I think that's a great way to end this panel discussion. So I'd like to invite you all to please give a oh yes, final comment. Bring Us Home Joshua is a leader

Closing Reflections of the Panel Session

Carolyn Pearson [01:48:55] in affirmation gales and Mormons in many ways, it really begins with us. Us and our allies within the church. The way we have been disenfranchised. We are not the only ones who don't know where we belong. There are many single men and women

Jimmy Creech [01:49:16] in the church who have no idea

Carolyn Pearson [01:49:18] what's happening in the afterlife. In the celestial kingdom, there are those who are handicapped. These are issues that the Church is not talking about. And these are people who the Church doesn't know what to do with. Hopefully we can accept everyone who has been as disenfranchised as we have.

John Dehlin [01:49:41] Thank you. So I'd like to ask all of you to please give our panel and those who have participated a round of applause. This podcast was brought to you today by Mormon Stories Podcast and by the Open Stories Foundation. To learn more about LDS homosexuality, please check out gaymormonstories.org music on today's podcast was brought to you by the Saber Rattlers. Take care.

Guest [01:50:32] When all that was promised, the saints will be given and none will molest them.

Jimmy Creech [01:50:41] From morning till Eve and Earth will

Joseph Broom [01:50:45] appear as a Garden of Eden and

Guest [01:50:50] Jesus will say to all Israel, come home.

Part Three Introduction and Opening

Part 3 of 4 · Ep. 335

John Dehlin [00:00:00] The 2011 circling the wagons conference was a production of Mormon Stories podcast and the Open Stories Foundation. For additional Circling the Wagons audio and video, and for additional content regarding LGBT issues within Mormonism, please check out gaymormonstories.org also please know that the video for this conference is available@YouTube.com mormonstories and and thank you for listening.

Guest [00:00:27] Now let us rejoice in the day of salvation. No longer as strangers on earth need we roam.

Kevin Kloosterman [00:00:39] Hello everyone. We'd like to go ahead and proceed with the conclusion of our conference. I'd also like to just thank John Dehlin, Ann, Joe, Julia, Jared, and all those who were the backbone and brains, however small or big, that would be, of this amazing conference. Please give them a hand. John, I just want to say thank you. You've truly followed the Savior and sought after the one for. So thank you for your friendship. I know one day you'll hear the words, well done, thou good and faithful servant. I also want to thank our presenters, all those who presented, especially Carolyn Pearson, Bill Bradshaw, Jimmy Creech, Lee Beckstead, all pioneers who have circled the wagons today. Thank you for inspiring us all that you've done and continue to do for our loved ones, LGBT and straight. We know that we stand on the shoulders of giants and walk the path blazed by you pioneers. Thank you. And Carolyn, I just want to say that you are the Mother Teresa of Mormonism. I just called you a name, Carolyn. Ministering to those who were and are so poor in spirit and nourishing back. Nourishing them back to health. As I've listened to you talk, there's something, a secret, something about you that tells me I have a mother there. My name is Kevin Kloosterman and I'm a Mormon. Kloosterman is a good, strong, masculine Dutch name, which, roughly translated means he who cries at the drop of a hat. And I kept looking for the crocheted Kleenex box here. We know Unitarians keep it locked underneath, according to Joanna Brooks. But there is Kleenex over here and I've got mine. So I do cry a lot just to warn you. But I know I'm in good company with people that I admire, such as President Eyring Jesus and Joanna Brooks, just to name a few. Not necessarily in that order. I am an unlikely person to be here at this conference. I'm a straight white male, married for 19 years, three wonderful children. I currently serve as the bishop of my ward in Illinois. I have a little bit of a Chicago accent. I have not had to confront LGBT issues in my own life, I've barely figured out what BLTG means. At first, I thought it was an acronym for a gourmet sandwich. Then when I finally figured it out, somebody added a Q. So I'm just trying to keep up here. I haven't had to confront this in my immediate family or my extended family at this point. I haven't had to confront it in my calling as a bishop. And I have not had to confront this issue with any of my close friends. So why am I here? Over the last year or so, I began to feel prompted, quite frankly, by the spirit to learn all I could about LGBT issues. I began to learn, and I began to listen. I'm not sure why, but I believe someday I will have a fuller understanding of why I received these promptings. And after coming to this conference, I believe I have received a piece of that understanding. I have not always been an ally. Although I never acted out in hateful ways, I once believed that my marriage and my family were under attack by a gay agenda. And so there were times I felt the need to respond rhetorically to that perceived attack. I felt the need to defend traditional marriage and the traditional family. But as I began to listen and learn, my heart began to change. As I did my homework, I began to receive inspiration about this issue. As I listened to the stories, as I studied it out in my mind, as I pondered and prayed, my heart began to change, little by little, line upon line, precept upon precept, through a series of events that I won't go into, to make a long story short, led up to me hearing about the three attacks on gay men here in Utah. It was at that point that I knew I needed to take a stand. I needed to get off the fence. My marriage and family were not under attack. It was my gay, lesbian, and transgender friends, sisters, and brothers that were literally under attack and beaten and curbed. On the side of the road. And I could no longer play the role of a Levite or a priest and just shake my head and pass by. So I'm happy to tell you today that I buried my rhetorical weapons deep in the earth because I realized that my rhetoric, no matter how good intentioned, was giving fuel to extremists and haters who not only wanted to physically harm my beautiful and precious gay and transgender sisters and brothers, but to terrorize them and to torture them. So I covenanted with God. That I would never use these rhetorical weapons again. In my sword of ignorance and fear, I beat into a plowshare of peace, friendship, understanding, respect, and love. Love unfeigned. A love with no strings attached. No qualifiers, no caveats, no fine print, no conditions. Simply a pure love, the pure love of Christ. I will continue to be an LGBTQ advocate and no longer an adversary. Until the day comes when every child feels safe and secure in their school instead of bullied to the brink. Until every soldier who volunteers to serve their receives respect and applause instead of boos and jeers and indifference or worse from presidential candidates. Until all of God's children are treated with respect, equality, dignity, and love. Until the truth sets us free and we are reconciled, one with another and with our Father in heaven. Tonight, you have a new advocate and another ally. And I want you to know that if you don't walk as most people do, some people walk away from you. But I won't. I won't. I will walk with you on this road and share your burdens so that they may be light. I'm sorry. I'm going through the repentance process. It's a strange role reversal. I'm giving a confession. But it's my privilege and honor to be here with you. I hope I can be a minor character, a supportive character in your play. We will find the elixir in this journey and bring it back to the tribe. That is why I'm here with you today. Thank you. The time is now yours to share your testimony. We will go until approximately a quarter after the hour or until they give me the pizza signal. Actually, before we do our testimonies, we will have a special musical number, and I want you to know that this is a powerful, special musical number.

Community Testimony Meeting Begins

Guest 3 [00:11:36] The.

Kevin Kloosterman [00:11:37] The name of the number is Blessing, and I believe it will resonate with you, our gay and lesbian, transgender individuals. I hope it speaks to you. Devin o' Donnell will be doing this musical number, and then you are free to share your testimonies.

Guest [00:12:15] I'm taken back by allegations I've misdirected my life I've changed I'm a different man what? Love ain't right? But I only wish you'd understand why Love is exactly what God has planned and I only wish you'll give me your blessing. I'm sorry this hurts you I'm sorry this numbs you But I'm not ashamed of this fire I've inflamed I was given this gift Love from heaven's hands don't abandon me now for loving another man All I ask is in time, you'll give me your blessing. I know Deep down you love me. I could use that love right now. I know time heals the wounded I just hope you'll come around Cause I'm finally proud to state who I am. Your close minded thoughts won't leave me condemned. And I'm sorry this hurts you But I'm still your baby, your blood have your eyes have your smile and nothing has changed here. I'm still the same you taught me to love with my heart I still

Guest 4 [00:14:36] do

Guest [00:14:39] I was given this gift Love from heaven's hands. And I know this is not the life you had planned But I ask that in time youe give me your blessing. Cause I couldn't remain living inside this light. Every day that I did More and more of me died. And I live to remind you that I'm still your baby. Your heart have your eyes have your smile. I didn't mean to hurt you. I'm sorry you're wounded But I'm not ashamed of this fire I've inflamed. I was living this life for somebody else. Now I've made a choice to live it for myself. All I ask is in time you give me your blessing. I hope one day you'll see. All there truly is to me. One day. I hope you find it in your

Guest 5 [00:16:56] heart

Guest [00:16:59] to give me your blessing.

Kevin Kloosterman [00:17:24] Before you come up here, I just want to remind you to please be mindful of one another and keep your testimonies brief so we can give as many people an opportunity to speak as possible. Try to be brief.

Guest 3 [00:17:41] My name is Hugo and I am a radical Mormon. And being a radical Mormon for me means that I too, like Joseph Smith, had my Sacred Grove experience. And I, just like Joseph Smith, believe in community organizing. And I, like Joseph Smith, believe in bearing this radical Mormon testimony with everyone. And perhaps just like Joseph Smith, in the process, I will piss off some of the religious establishment. Let me say one more thing in the name of affirmation Gay Alessia Mormons, which I'm involved with and it is that we had an amazing. We received an amazing hospitality this weekend with the Open Stories Foundation. We cannot return all that hospitality, but after the pizzas, we want to invite you to the lounge in the on this floor and we want to hear from you. How can we affirmation gay and lesbian Mormons better serve you and serve the community. And you know what? I am going to finish this testimony in the name of Jesus and in the name of everything that is true and good and beautiful. Amen.

Guest 6 [00:19:01] It's such a privilege to be here today. I feel like this is, like, my chance to bear my testimony. I was excommunicated from the church about two and a half years ago, and I haven't publicly given my testimony since then. I still have very positive feelings towards the church. I'm a bit of a conundrum. I still attend my ward that I used to. My church leaders and most of the members of my ward know that I'm gay and have been very supportive and kind. And I'm grateful for that. I'm very grateful for this kind of meeting where, you know, in the first session, I was thinking, gosh, this is what it could be like. You know, we could find a place where all our gay brothers and sisters can feel full fellowship in the church. I love my Savior very much. The reason I was excommunicated, you know, for a long time I lived my life, you know, trying to obey all the rules and trying to live my life according to the tenets of the church. And I finally met my partner, and he was worth. He was worth it. He's made my life so much better. I'm so much happier now. I still have a testimony of the church. I think there's a lot of truth and goodness in it. And I promised myself I would never be one of those people who let bitterness or anger or resentment overtake me. They're not useful feelings. I understand why people have them, and it's often very justifiable, but I don't think it's useful for our souls. And I just urge everyone to maintain love rather than hate or bitterness or anger. And I say these things in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

Personal Testimonies from Conference Participants

Guest 5 [00:21:12] Hello. First of all, I'd like to thank everyone involved in planning and participating in this conference. It's been a great experience. I'd like to bear my testimony that living authentically leads to happiness. And although I have found my authentic self outside the Mormon Church, I wish the Mormon Church and all Mormons well. But sadly, I did not learn this, what I call plain and precious truth in the Mormon Church. I learned that living my authentic life would lead to happiness from other sources, but most importantly, from my own experience. Lastly, I'd just like to publicly thank Carolyn Pearson for her writings. They've. They've truly been a catalyst to enlightenment for my parents. And also the Bradshaws with Family Fellowship has done a lot of good for my family. Thank you.

Guest 4 [00:22:20] This is a very pretty building. Very, very pretty. My friends and I were constantly talking about how we wish that Mormon churches were as decorated as nicely as the I Just want to repeat once more that truth is truth. And I, man, I want people to just specifically like family and friends, all that stuff. Truth is truth. Tradition, fine and dandy if that works for you. But when that's not working, truth is truth, do what is necessary. And what's funny, too, is I. I'm trying to figure out how to come out to my parents that I do not believe the church is true anymore. And yeah, it's. It's a funny comparison, but I suppose the phrase it gets better can apply to many different facets of a person's life besides the homosexual aspect. But, yeah, truth is truth. We should do what is necessary to make life better, even if tradition is just not working. Cut it out. Let it go.

Guest 7 [00:23:49] I. I wanted to bear my testimony today because I want you to know what's possible. I'm 17 years old, just an innocent senior in a Salt Lake City high school, and I am a fully out of the closet lesbian ex Mormon. And I have no anger towards the church. I wish them all the best. And I knew who I am, and I know what I believe. And I've been one of the lucky ones. My community has not ostracized me. My mother has not disowned me and has generally allowed me to be who I am, you know, with some righteous sorrow. But, you know, what can I say? I went through a period of quiet observation and questioning my beliefs in a kind of scientific mindset. And in the end, it was fairly simple. Is the church the only way to God? Is it the only true church upon the face of the earth? I went to other religious gatherings and I saw God in the face of the Buddhists and the Hindus and the Sikhs and the Muslims and the Jews. And that was enough of an answer for me. Is it evil to be gay? The more I was around my gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender friends, and the more I got to know them, there was no more room in my heart for that belief. And then I came out to myself, and then I came out to my family, and then I came out to my entire ward and sacrament meeting. What can I say? I'm a talkative chick. I can't shut up. And am I now cut off from God? Am I living an unhappy life because of my sin? I'm here to testify that I am not. God is here and there and there and there and there and there. You do not need to meet a specific set of requirements set down by some agency. You do not need the authorization of a priest or a teacher or a bishop. Or a building or a book in order to pray and to love God in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.

Guest 8 [00:26:12] I didn't know where to sit when I came up here. The seating configuration is a little different, unfamiliar. I almost sat on the altar, but. My name is Brad. I live in Raleigh, North Carolina, just down the road from Brother Creech. Apparently this is my fourth Mormon Expression Mormon Stories Conference. I think that makes me a groupie. John, Do I get a T shirt or something?

Guest 3 [00:26:39] Okay.

Guest 8 [00:26:42] The thing is that I have not been involved with the church for coming on eight years now. I left actually quite angry and quite bitter, but it put me on a different path of finding spiritual fulfillment that I look back on now. And I find great satisfaction in that road and in that journey. I thought when I first left that I couldn't believe in God either. It's the Mormon God or atheism. You know, there's just nothing in between. And I quickly learned that that's. That's just not true. And, you know, a lot of ups and downs. But I came to know one that God is real and that God is love. And that's all I know. And I don't need to know anything more than that to get through this life. I look back now and I'm amazed at how much I preoccupied myself as a believing member with the afterlife and with trying to rid myself of gay attractions so that I could attain the highest degree of the celestial kingdom. And frankly, now I don't even. I just don't think about the afterlife. It's not a part of my daily paradigm. What I think about is, am I living a good life today, right now? How am I aligning myself with. With this God who is real and who is love? In attending these other Mormon Story conferences, New York, D.C. and Atlanta this past year, I have been really amazed at how much pain is out there. These were all conferences not focused on the Mormon LGBT community, but on just a wide variety of issues. And people are really hurting and struggling right now on a wide variety of fronts. And like every Mormon Stories conference, they end with these testimony meetings. And you can see the hurt and the struggle that people are experiencing as the history books open up wide, as science rolls out new findings that seem to contradict core Mormon beliefs. And so people are realigning their faith. They're realigning what they really believe in. And it's a painful process. Just this past year, I've had four or five friends who have approached me to get a better sense of what I believe in. When it comes to God because they're suddenly being confronted with the history and with the science and can't make sense of it. And I guess why I've been attending all these conferences is because I myself have been trying to find out how I can realign with Mormonism, not necessarily come back as a true believing Mormon, but to really appreciate and value all that it does for my family, my extended family, and all that it did for me in the first 30 years of my life. That's never going to go away. And so in that sense, Mormonism will always be a part of my life. What I'm finding now with my friends who have come to me is that I have this opportunity to share with them my knowledge of the divine and my knowledge of who and what God is, maybe ease their transition a little bit better. And I think that each of us here has that same opportunity as well. Because, I mean, what group is better suited to talk to others about conflict in believing in a loving God? Who of us here has not had to define and redefine our relationship with God and with the divine? And I tell you, you know, the history books are not going to close and the science is not going to shut off. I think that we'll continue to see our fellow brothers and sisters in the church struggle in maybe ways we can't even foresee yet. And. And we may very well be the ones who find ourselves comforting them. Thank you.

Guest 9 [00:31:25] I myself feel like I'm lucky to have gotten up here first. But aside from that, I've really felt like I've proceeded on a journey of a new life in these past months. I am a BYU student. I was not out to almost anyone, just a few people, until about a month ago when I went to my first USGA meeting. And since then, my life has radically changed. And I was so afraid of what was going to happen, if maybe I was not going to like what was going to happen and that there was going to be troubles. And it's going to be hard. But I'll be honest, so far I've loved it. It's been the most liberating, the greatest experience in my life. It's really helped me to see that something that I've been struggling with for so long has really never needed to be a struggle. And I personally know that God loves me and that he cares for me personally and that he knows what I am doing and he watches over me. He truly cares about where I'm gonna go. And I know that as I embark on my new life, as I'm reborn and I try to traverse this crazy life that he's with me. And I hope that everyone here can feel that. I know some people here probably don't have the same kind of faith in God that I do. But I still hope that we can all have a sense of spirituality, that we don't need to become shallow, meaningless beings. We need to remember who we are. We are still all children of God and have limitless potential. And I'm so grateful for that. And I say these things. Name Jesus Christ. Amen.

Guest 10 [00:33:25] Brothers and sisters, my name is Kurt Peterson. I am grateful to be here today. This is a beautiful sight. Nearly 20 years ago, I was in South Florida serving a mission for the LDS Church. And I was in a room kneeling with a couple other missionaries and an investigator who was praying, literally, I think, to know if there really was a God. And at that moment, God answered in a way that left all of us speechless. I felt these swirling sensations overriding anything that could have possibly been happening because of the air conditioning vent blowing. It was stunning, really. And life marched on. And I came home and I went to college at BYU and I got those degrees and I got married and I have children. But it didn't stop. Life keeps marching. And today I'm divorced. I still have children who I love dearly, and I still believe in God. The testimony of the institution fell apart completely and utterly. But I still know that my heavenly Father loves me. I was in a Gold's Gym in Provo, of all places, on one of the days when the media was covering all the bullying and the suicide that followed. And that was emotional enough to be watching. And before I knew it, that same feeling, that same sensation was back. God telling me to get off my butt and do something about it. I had already reached the point where I was out and open about who I was, and I wasn't hiding anymore. But it taught me that God truly did still love me and care for me and will always do so. And I hope each of you knows that and can share that with others of our brothers and sisters who aren't here today. And I say this in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.

Guest 11 [00:35:48] My name is Alex. I'm from Bakersfield, California. When I was growing up, I think I was very confused, as many of us were. I thought, oh, maybe I'm just developmentally, like, delayed. I'm going to develop feelings later for girls or something. But when I was 17, I finally figured out I was gay. And that was what was going on there. It Made sense finally.

Guest [00:36:15] Oh, yeah.

Guest 11 [00:36:17] So. But being Mormon, I was very confused. I remember that I would read all these statements, I read the miracle of forgiveness and all these things and thought, gosh, what's wrong with me? Like, how can I change this? And I remember just praying to God one day and feeling or hearing that it's okay. And unfortunately, after I came out to my parents, things were terrible for a while. I was told all these negative things and my dad took me to Evergreen. And the next 10 years I spent trying to change who I was, trying to pray away these same sex attractions, the struggle with same gender attraction. And eventually I. I thought I'd done it. I thought, you know, I've gotten to a point where I've got this under control. I got married in the temple. And then three years later this year, I got divorced.

Guest 10 [00:37:14] And

Guest 11 [00:37:17] now looking back, I pray and I realize it is okay. It is okay that I am gay. And I prayed and my wife and I both prayed about it. And we knew that we needed to get divorced. We knew that that was the right decision for us. And that's hard. My family does not understand that at all. They've made that very clear. They've pressured me all kinds of ways to marry again and do all kinds of things. My bishop has told me the same thing, and it's been difficult. But I know that God will guide me and I know that we can find answers in that. As has been said, that truth does prevail. And I thank you very much. And I say this in Jesus name.

Guest 2 [00:37:52] Amen.

Guest 3 [00:37:55] Hi, I'm the one who ran up here because I saw four people getting ahead of me.

Guest 4 [00:38:01] Hey, it's my turn.

Guest 3 [00:38:03] I just want to thank all of

Guest 4 [00:38:05] you who are here, all of you

Guest 3 [00:38:06] who are here earlier, that you're not listening to it now, but. This is the first time in like three, four months that I've had such a wonderful experience with the church and I'm not even in church. And that is because of all of you and all of your wonderful spirits. And this sounds so cliche, doesn't it?

Guest 2 [00:38:34] But it's true.

Guest 3 [00:38:36] All of you are so beautiful. This is ruining my tough girl image, this crying thing. You are all so beautiful and so wonderful and I'm so sorry for all the horrible things that are, that have gone on and continue. I went to my branch president about two months ago or so, I don't remember, but. And I told him that I just don't agree at all with Prop 8. I was like, what in the world is this why can't people just do what they want? You don't have a problem with Methodists or Buddhists or anybody else getting married. Why pick on these people? They're still people. And I got called an intellectual and I was thinking too hard, and I'm thinking my way out of the church and just to accept it. And I won't, and I don't. I'm not going to be here tomorrow because I'm going to be at my church doing the exact same thing I'm doing right now. I'm going to bear my testimony about things that I know are true, that God is love. Wherever there are two people who love each other, there is God and there is truth. And you feel edified from all truth. You know, I believe in evolutionism and the creationism, and we'll all figure out how it all works soon. Ish. But I believe it's true. And you all feel edified when you get truth. Just like my husband Tom was saying earlier. I just really wanted all of you to know that, that you are all beautiful people. And I want to thank all of you who gave keynote speeches or people who I just had the opportunity to get to know in the day and a half that I've been here. I mean, you've edified and touched me, and I know you can continue to do that. So please, please do keep talking, keep introducing yourselves. Maybe wear a name tag all the time. Be like, hi, my name's Brian, or hi, my name's Kristen, and I love people.

Guest 4 [00:41:00] Thank

Guest 3 [00:41:03] you.

Guest 5 [00:41:08] Hello, everybody. I'm a BYU student and I attend USGA with these lovely people. And if I were at a testimony meeting right now, there I would be giving my name, where I'm from, and my relationship status. But I'm not going to do that. I think I'll just move on. My. My journey as a gay Mormon started with maybe this is not the right term for it, but more or less nightmares. I would be in high school and in my first semester of college, I'd have these extremely damaging nightmares. Very physical, very emotionally draining things that were very difficult for me. And it wasn't until I took a year out of. I took a year off from school and I started blogging and connecting with other people who had gone through struggles like mine that I really started to get to know myself and I started to get to know my relationship with God and that God loves me as a gay person. I started to realize that as I started to blog. And I'm just so grateful for all of you. That have through the years, put yourselves out there. You've been an example to me and have made me stronger to be more vocal. Something that keeps on. That I keep on thinking when I'm at this conference is I just. I just want to be home. I want to come home. I want to be home. And by home, I mean have the love and peace and security that I know God's true church is. And I'm not finding when I go to church in the Mormon community and I'm convinced that God's true church looks like this, that it's in every one of you and it's in your face as it's in the way you interact with me and interact with other people that have difficult challenges and don't know the answers. And frankly, I think it's beautiful. I think it reminds me of Mary and Joseph, who. With the institutions around them. When the Savior was to be born, there was no space for them. They lacked a place for the Savior to be born. So they created their own space. And they created their own space in a stable with the manger. And it's so interesting. That space that they created is probably one of the most beautiful, sacred, holy symbols that Christianity has, is that the Savior of the world was born in a manger. And I think as together we create that space, we're creating something that can be just as holy and just as sacred and just as beautiful. And I'm so excited for that. I'm totally done with the Woe is me. I am gay and Mormon. Pity me. I am a victim. I am done with it.

Guest 12 [00:44:08] It.

Guest 5 [00:44:08] And I'm really excited to be more vocal about it. And you won't be heard if you don't make the music. And I'm ready to do that. I hope you guys are, too. I say these things in Christ's name. Amen.

Guest 12 [00:44:24] Hi. Gosh, I don't really know what to say. This is weird, but it's a good kind of weird.

Guest 4 [00:44:38] And.

Guest 12 [00:44:43] I just. I'm so glad I was able to come and. Because this has helped. Helped me so much to come to terms with who I am and come to terms with my feelings and validating those feelings and not letting others invalidate them. For the most part. I'm a closeted lesbian. And I had an experience where. I had been having these feelings for a while. And I just. Just. I've been reading this book about different stories of lesbians. And because I was curious of how their feelings differed from mine and how they were the same. And I just. But Then I looked over. A picture of the temple and I looked over at pictures of my family and I just said, heavenly Father, what, what do I do? I don't know what to do. And I've been praying about it for a while. Not to try and undo these feelings or to say, no, I'm not, but to just help me figure out how to know when the time is right to fully out myself and, And Heavenly Father, I just got this. This. The Spirit came to me and the Heavenly Father just kind of said, don't care about what others think. Do what makes you happy. That's all I care about because you're my child. It's okay if people don't understand. It's okay if others don't understand. And, and right now I don't really have a lot of support. I don't have a lot of people that know my family is very, very, very conservative, very narrow minded. But I just want to thank my cousins Misha and Adam, who personally paid for me to come here. They paid the fee and they drove me here and I just, I don't know what I would do if I didn't have them. I really don't know where I'm going with this anymore. But I just, I'm really glad I came and it's helped me a lot and I'm just grateful for all your guys comments and your words and your, your talks. I say these things named Jesus Christ. Amen.

Guest 13 [00:49:29] Hi guys. So this was a pretty unique opportunity that I couldn't pass up just to bear testimony in this type of a setting. As I've been here and listened to what's been said and the testimonies and everything, it's given me an opportunity to reflect on my own experience of reconciliation, of sorting through and then figuring out what all of this means. And as Carolyn was talking about the hero's journey,

Guest 5 [00:50:15] the thought that came to

Guest 13 [00:50:16] me was I remembered a particular experience I had and what was going on at the time I had the experience isn't that important, but it was what happened inside. And I realized that I was limiting myself. I was limiting what my experience was to what I saw around me. That I was relying too much on the way other people were living out their experiences. And that ultimately I had the power to create my own experience. And it is, you know, it's important to turn to others and to have mentors and, and that sort of a thing. But ultimately it's me who creates my experience. It's me who creates my life. It's me who creates my relationships that I have. And ultimately, that's who all of us are. We are all creators. We all have the ability and the capability to create the experience that we want to have, how we want to live out our sexuality and our spirituality, our Mormonism. We have that ability and that power. And I think it's through experiences like this where we're able to tap into that a little bit more work where conversation happens, and we're able to get in touch more with what's going on inside. So I am really grateful to have been here today and to participate and to hear the stories of others. And I say these things in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

Guest 14 [00:52:30] My name is Sean Williams, and I come from a long lineage of Mormons and pioneers. I know what it's like to be a minority, especially, and. And to have the disabling fear of growing up as a minority and having a lot of labels applied. One of the most compelling reasons I'm up here, I think, was that I wanted to share that I am an atheist, but I also believe in God, which is a contradiction, I know, but I believe that it's possible. Well, I know it's possible because I'm living proof of that. But I feel the same spirit that you do, and I feel all the wonderful things. But, yeah, I'm an atheist and I believe in God, and it's possible, so. So I'm also a minority in that way, too. But I think that we can be creatures of duality, so. And life is strange. I'm learning, and I continue to be surprised.

Guest 10 [00:54:11] So.

Guest 13 [00:54:11] But

Guest 14 [00:54:15] step forward. All right, thank you.

Guest 12 [00:54:21] Hello.

Guest 2 [00:54:22] My name is Christy. I am a straight, married mother of five children. And the journey that has brought me to this point where I can stand up here today has been a long one, consisting of several years. It's been an awakening for me, which the journey nearly led me straight out of the church, but the price was too high to leave. It would have cost me too many family relationships. And I come from a very conservative family and a conservative husband, and I love them so much. So I decided if I am to remain a part of the Mormon community, it would be on my terms, and I would be the kind of Mormon that I wanted to be. And I'm now the Mormon who's joining feminist reading groups, and the Mormon who's speaking at anti gay violence vigils, and the Mormon who is waking up early on a snowy Saturday morning to spend the day with you fine folks. And I'm really enjoying where I'm at right now. This. What we have felt over the last day. This love in the room and this warmth and this comraded. Comraded. I can't even say it. This friendship, This is what we're missing at church. We need you. And if you don't feel welcome there, then it's truly our loss, because what we are missing is what you have to offer. It's truly our loss. And just to throw a little mommy power out there, this was too great. I had to write this down. This came off of the LGBTQ Mormon Stories group. This was a comment made by Greg Van Dyke. I don't know if he's out here, but he said Mormon mommies taught me

Guest 7 [00:56:41] there'd be hell to pay if I

Guest 2 [00:56:42] didn't play fair and treat others with love and respect, no matter who they were. I think the revelation to give full standing to all, regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity will come shortly after we reach critical mass and they piss off enough primary ladies. I just want you to know I am one of those pissed off primary ladies. And the time is coming and things will be getting better. And I'm so happy to be here with you today, and I love you all so much. And these things I say. In the name of my savior, Jesus Christ, Amen.

Closing Reflections on the Conference Experience

Guest 15 [00:57:22] Okay, first off, it feels a little strange to be standing behind a pulpit in a church. First time in about 10 years, and it being a Baptist church, I would have never guessed that this would be the arrangement we'd get. But nonetheless, as I sat and listened earlier to Brother Creech, I suppose we'll call him, talk about the fact that talking to gay Republicans, he knew that they had to be born that way because they were gay. Well, being a gay Mormon Republican, I mean, this is just conclusive evidence that in fact, God created me just the way I am. And that's really the message I want to share, is that as long as we strive and do the very best that we can, we are fulfilling exactly the purpose of our creator. In Mormonism, we have this notion that inside all of us is this little spark of the divine. Or put another way, we are gods in embryo. My sense is for myself, and this would scare the folks in my parents home ward, I'm a gay God in embryo. That's just terrifying, I think, to Mormons. I don't know how that would work, but that's my sin. And perhaps the Republican side of this will mess it up and I won't quite get to be actually a gay God, but I'm doing the Best I can. You know, it's been a long process for me to stand in front of a group of people and actually say this. I've known John Dehlin for quite a while now, and we first got to know John. I was doing a radio program that was focused sort of on local government issues and conservatism and a whole wide variety of things. And this was during the time I was slowly leaving the church in terms of an institution and open stories or whatever we're calling it this week, in terms of the movement, if we're open Mormons or I don't know what we are, but we're something that the sense that there were other folks out there made a huge difference. And the danger is you let somebody who's done radio near a mic and they don't shut up. So at this point, I'll just shut up and say these things. In the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

Guest 4 [00:59:33] So I'm a mom of a stepson who's gay, and my daughter, who I've had more experience with, and I'm more nervous up here than having than I was when my daughter told me she was gay. So that was a lot easier to hear than being up here talking about it. But I just wanted to say thank you to John because I figured out that I just didn't have enough drama in my life. And now I have all this wonderful drama. And today I learned from Brother Bradshaw that I've got to fit it into this itty bitty living space. So that's going to be a big job. And I also had a little message for Bishop Kloosterman.

Guest 9 [01:00:25] Right.

Guest 4 [01:00:26] That you need to add an I to that lgbtqi. Sorry, there was one more. And then don't forget the S, because straight people do exist. So LGBTQIs. Yeah. I just want to say again, thank you so much. I. This four year journey, I'm sure it's gonna. Yeah. Every time. I also have another thing to say to you. When you said that you didn't know any gay people, none of your family, you didn't think any of your family were gay, or your cousins or your, you know, close friends or relatives or. That's not true. You just keep at it for four years and you will find that isn't true. So I just want to tell you all that I love you. And I stayed in the church and, yeah, I hung on and it felt like it was just with a really, really fine thread. And some days it still does. But I've learned today, hey, just accept the drama. That is what it's all about. Just. It's okay. You can do it. And I just want you to know that I do have a really supportive. Group of people in our ward. I was serving as the second counselor in the Relief Society when my daughter came out. And in a presidency meeting, I asked the Relief Society president, where do I go? Who can I talk to? And she said. And I. My husband says, I don't think she really knew what she was saying. I think she was just saying, don't talk to me about it. But she said, isn't there a community group that talks about that? I said, you mean pflag? And she said, yeah, yeah. Isn't there something you. And I'm like, really? You're giving me permission to go to pflag? Okay, I'm on it. I'm gonna go. So then a couple of months later, the first counselor came to me in church, and she said, hey, I just wanted you to know that I prayed about this, and I'm gonna become an ally for the LGBT community. And she has a financial business, and she decided that she was gonna.

Sunday Service Scripture, Sermon, and Music

Part 4 of 4 · Ep. 336

Joseph Broom [00:00:00] The 2011 circling the wagons Conference was a production of Mormon Stories Podcast and the Open Stories Foundation. For additional Circling the Wagons audio and video, and for additional content regarding LGBT issues within Mormonism, please check out gaymormonstories.org also please know that the video for this conference is available@YouTube.com mormonstories and and

Joseph Broom [00:00:25] thank you for listening.

John Dehlin [00:00:27] Now let us rejoice in the day of salvation. No longer as strangers on earth need we roam.

Joseph Broom [00:00:39] Brothers and sisters, I'd like to welcome you here today to partake in the spirit of the Lord and gain a greater understanding of our position as sons and daughters of God. I'm grateful for the opportunity I have to sit in the presence of three fine religious leaders who will be speaking to us later. We'd like to welcome especially Bishop Kevin Kloosterman from Chicago, a bishop in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. We'd like to welcome the Reverend Canon Mary June Nestler, Executive Officer of the Utah Diocese of the Episcopal Church. And we'd also like to welcome Jimmy Creech, one of our one of the great allies and advocates of our cause and truly a humble and righteous man of God. I'm grateful that I've been able to get to know him this last week. I'd like to especially thank, if I might, Katrina Barker, who will be leading us in the music, and Russ Daly, who will be helping us on the organ. Now, I didn't know this, but when I asked Russ to do this, but this is a very, very special week for Russ. Russ and his partner will be married on Friday, so he was thrilled to have the opportunity to begin the week focusing on what is as important to him as it is to all of us. The love of our Heavenly Father. Let's begin today's service by singing the hymn Redeemer of Israel. You'll find the words to the hymn in your program, after which Russell Boffman will offer the invocation.

John Dehlin [00:03:09] Dear Father in Heaven, we are very

Joseph Broom [00:03:11] grateful to thee for this day, Father,

John Dehlin [00:03:14] for the beautiful sun that is shining. And we're grateful to be gathered here

Joseph Broom [00:03:18] together as Thy children and in the spirit of worship and love. We're grateful for the opportunity we have.

Guest 2 [00:03:34] To be gathered here in an atmosphere,

Joseph Broom [00:03:39] an environment that is welcoming,

Guest 2 [00:03:43] and we

Joseph Broom [00:03:44] ask that Thy spirit might accompany us

Guest 2 [00:03:46] during this meeting and throughout the rest of this day. And we love thee very much and

Joseph Broom [00:03:53] are grateful for the many blessings that we enjoy, Father, and for the friends and the support that we have here. And we pray for these things in the name of Jesus Christ.

Joseph Broom [00:04:06] Amen. I have to say I am just overcome with emotion to hear you sing that we are all children wandering in the desert for God. I know that this is a good thing for us today. I know it is good for us to worship together and I pray that you might all feel the spirit of the Lord here today. As I have already. I'd like to begin today's service by reading the values of Mormon stories. I think these values are important for us to understand as we approach this worship service today. First, we acknowledge the richness of Mormon heritage, teachings and community in all its diversity. We believe that one can self identify as Mormon based on one's genealogy, upbringing, beliefs, relationships and other life experiences regardless of one's adherence or non adherence to the teachings or doctrines of any religious organization. We seek spaces where we as Mormons can live lives of intellectual and spiritual integr, individual conscience and personal dignity. We acknowledge and honor different spiritual paths and modes of religious or non religious truth seeking. We respect the convictions of those who subscribe to ideas and beliefs that differ from our own. We recognize the confusion, distress, emotional trauma and social ostracism that people in faith journeys often experience. We seek constructive ways of helping and supporting people regardless of their ultimate decisions regarding church affiliation or activity. We affirm the inherent and equal worth of all human beings. We seek spaces where Mormons and all people can interact as equals, regardless of race, gender or sexual orientation. In this spirit of egalitarianism, we prefer non authoritarian and non hierarchical means of organization and affiliation. I'd now like to ask Sarah Nicholson to come forward for the Scripture reading.

Guest 3 [00:06:29] The gospel of St. John, chapter 4, verses 1 through 26 when therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard, that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, though Jesus himself baptized not but his disciples, he left Judea and departed again into Galilee, and he must needs go through Samaria. Then cometh he to a city of Samaria, which is called Sychar, near to the parcel of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph. Now Jacob's well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied and with his journey, sat thus on the well. And it was about the sixth hour there cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water. Jesus saith unto her, give me to drink for his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat. Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, how is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? For the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans. Jesus answered and said unto her, if thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, give me to drink, thou wouldst have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water. The woman saith unto him, sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep. From whence then hast thou that living water? Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children and his cattle? Jesus answered and said unto her, whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again. But whosoever drinketh the water that I shall give him shall never thirst. But the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. The woman saith unto him, sir, give me this water that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw. Jesus saith unto her, go call thy husband, and come hither. The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, thou hast well said, I have no husband, for thou hast had five husbands, and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband. In that saidst thou truly? The woman saith unto him, sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. Our fathers worshipped in this mountain, and ye say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. Jesus saith unto her, woman, believe me, the hour cometh when ye shall neither in this mountain nor yet at Jerusalem worship the Father. Ye worship ye. Know not what we know, what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a spirit, and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ. When he is come, he will tell us all things. And Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he. The first epistle of John, chapter 4, verses 9 and 10. In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent His only begotten Son into the world that we might live through Him. Herein is love. Not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Joseph Broom [00:10:36] Would you all stand and join in the hymn? Where can I Turn for peace?

Guest 2 [00:10:52] Constant.

Joseph Broom [00:11:08] Brothers and sisters. Several years ago I served as a bishop of a student ward in my ward. I had many young people who suffered with the Affliction of same sex attraction. When the young people came into my office and expressed their suffering, it broke my heart. It broke my heart because I knew that these young men and women had been taught false doctrine their entire lives. That they suffered under a terrible weight of recrimination and guilt because of teachings that demeaned them and made them less than they were. This, brothers and sisters, is a tragedy. And many of us here suffered the same fate. I was grateful that I was able in some small way to provide solace to those young men and women, to help them understand that God loved them. That they were sons and daughters of God, in fact, who would never forsake them, but would always stand by them. It's wonderful today, brothers and sisters, to know that we have divine parents who love us. And why do they love us? Because they created us and they find joy in who we are and what we do. I am so grateful, brothers and sisters, that my heavenly Father loves me. That my heavenly Father gave me enough courage to live a life of congruence, to be who I am and to find joy in that fact. I am grateful, brothers and sisters, that there are those surrounding us today with loving arms who are willing to support us and who are willing and able to confirm that love. Brothers and sisters, I'd now like to introduce three wonderful people who will, in fact, be talking to us about how we can find solace in the arms of God. I'm grateful that these people are willing to be here today to provide us the spiritual sustenance that we need to live our lives with truth and integrity. I'd like to. Our first speaker will be Bishop Kevin Kloosterman from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. He serves as a bishop in the Chicago area and has been a longtime advocate and supporter of of our cause. Following Bishop Kloosterman's remarks, we will be pleased to hear a beautiful, beautiful number by Julia Hunter, who I think is as gifted a violinist as anyone I've ever heard. Following Julia, the Reverend Canon Mary June Nestler, the executive officer of the Episcopal Diocese of Utah, will be addressing us. Following. The Reverend Nestler's remarks, Julia will again again play for us. And our concluding speaker will be Jimmy Creech. Bishop Kloosterman.

Joseph Broom [00:15:28] Good morning, brothers and sisters. My straight brothers and sisters and my gay and lesbian and transgender brothers and sisters. You and I know that I can't speak on behalf of the church today, but I can speak on behalf of myself. And I want to tell you, if you leave here not remembering anything I have to say, remember this. I'm sorry. Deeply, deeply sorry. Brother Miller got one thing wrong with me. I have not been a long time advocate for the cause. I'm a recent convert. A lot of people have asked me why I'm here today. And as I said yesterday, I have not had a situation where LGBT issues have come to the forefront for me personally in my marriage, in my family, in my extended family, as a bishop. And, of course, one of our good sisters yesterday reminded me to include the Word. Yet. Over the past year, I have felt promptings from the Spirit that I needed to learn all I could about these issues, to listen, finally, to many of your stories. Some of them I've read in books. Some of them I've read on the Internet. And as I took the time to listen and as I took the time to learn, I began to have a mighty change of heart. But it was not without some pain. As you know very well, the stories that have been written in your own stories are extremely painful. Some have called it a tragedy. I call it an atrocity. What has happened? And as I read these stories and as I learned more about these issues, I began to see the emotional wounds and the scars that many of you still have today. And I seem to ask the question, where did you get these wounds? And unfortunately, the answer was in the house of my friends. And when I felt that answer, I grieved and wept. As I would, as any parent would for their own child. It felt like I could not be comforted. I felt like I was about to lose everything. I threw Carolyn Pearson's book across the room at one point because I couldn't read it anymore. There was one section that was so hard, and I wept in front of my children. And they asked me, why are you crying? And I couldn't give them a good answer, except to say that I read something very sad. When I heard about the three recent attacks here in Utah, I. I knew that I could no longer just sit on the fence. I knew I could no longer just shake my head and pass by on the other side of the road like a Levite or a priest. I knew I had to do something. I knew I had to say something. I didn't know what to do. And I'm grateful that I was able to contact John Dehlin and Ann. And they told me about this conference, and I felt that I needed to be here, and that's why I'm here. And I still have a lot to learn today. As we stood in or prepared to go into the Tabernacle, to hear music and the spoken word. I had the opportunity to talk with one of my gay brothers who flew in from North Carolina. And he asked me why I came here. And I told him what I'm telling you. And I said, the straight members of the church have a lot of repenting to do. Repenting is not necessarily a dirty word. It's Greek. It means to change your thoughts, and we need to change our thoughts. And he told me, we all need to. We've all got to do that. He said, I've got a lot of resentment, bitterness in me. I said, well, we as straight members of the church, need to repent, and we need to make restitution, and maybe the healing can move along a little quicker for all of us. So where did I turn for peace? I fled to the Savior. I fled to him who descended below all things. He's been my source of comfort and strength and confidence. And without Him, I don't know that I would be standing before you today. I been praying to understand this issue and for myself. I went to a sacred place, and I pondered the creation. And in my mind, I could see the different creations of God, different animals. A bear, a tiger, a lion, giraffe, an eagle. And I thought. Or the thought came to me, who would want to make an eagle be a giraffe? Who would want a tiger to be a bear? Who would want a horse to become a lion? And at that point, I received the comfort and the strength that I needed, and I knew that I could come here and I could speak to you. Today, I will do all I can personally to make Zion a real place. Zion is not lost. It begins with one person at a time. It begins with one relationship at a time. And the only thing I can say to those of you who have been so patient and who have gone through so much is for you to watch and look for any small changes with your loved ones, with your wards, with your leaders, and encourage them in this repentance process. I want to bear my testimony to you that I know that God lives. I know that Jesus is the Christ. And I know that we truly are, all of us, straight, gay, lesbian, transgender, queer, our Heavenly Father's children, and that we do have heavenly parents who love us. In the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

Guest 4 [00:25:22] I feel a little bad because my mom always taught me to have this out and ready before I got going. I did this a lot growing up in the Mormon Church. My parents are actually here, and I'm really happy to see them. For those of you who know me from the Mormon Stories online community and have heard Mormon Matters podcast I was on. I talk a lot about my dad and how he's influenced my sense of Mormonism a lot. But today, especially with this piece, I want to talk about my mom's side of the family. My mom's maiden name is Clayton and I'm a direct descendant of William Clayton, who wrote the hymn Come Come Ye Saints. According to my grandma, we're descendants from the first wife, which apparently very important to a Mormon woman, makes us a little bit more Clayton than the other thousands of descendants, I guess. But I always grew up with this sense that my this kind of visual as a young violinist. I started playing when I was 4 and knowing that I was a descendant of William Clayton and this pioneer hymn and imagining him and that inner circle of the wagons, which is an image we're using in this conference, circling the wagons and getting out his fiddle and playing this hymn at night for the Saints to sing along to. And I carried that with me a long time and thinking as I developed my skills. And I'm really happy to be able to bring to play this music for you today, a trio of hymns of pioneer Mormon hymns from our pioneer heritage, my Mormon feminist heritage, and all the Mormon dreams of divinity that lay just beyond the horizon.

John Dehlin [00:31:11] Sa.

Episcopal Bishop Addresses the Gathering

Guest 2 [00:31:37] Good morning.

John Dehlin [00:31:38] Good morning.

Guest 2 [00:31:42] I bear you greetings this morning from the Episcopal Bishop of Utah and Northern Arizona. His name is Scott Hayashi, and he would have been here this morning were it not for a scheduled visit to one of our congregations. But I am glad to have this opportunity to be among you and to give you the greetings of the Episcopalian community in the Diocese of Utah and the Episcopal Church, which in our portion of the world is comprised of the United States of America and 13 foreign countries. For those of you who are not familiar with the Episcopal or Anglican tradition, let me simply say that we are formed into 39 different provinces worldwide, of which the Episcopal Church is one, and that we are headed. Our Presiding Bishop, who has a different role from a Mormon Presiding Bishop. Our Presiding Bishop is the only female Presiding Bishop in the Anglican Communion. Some of you may have known she was here in town just last week. So I bear you the greetings of the Most Reverend Catherine Jefferts Schori as well. And I assure you that Bishop Catherine and Bishop Scott both have long been active within my own denomination to assure the rights of GLBT persons. I am deeply saddened that Bishop Kloosterman could not speak with the backing of his own church behind him. And it is with sadness, but also with joy, then, that I can say that I am able to stand here and speak the words of my church to you. But the road which my church has taken so that I can stand here as an Episcopalian and say to gay and lesbian, bisexual and transgendered persons that you are beloved of God and that every part of our church and its leadership is open to you. That that has not been an Easy Road. For 40 years, we have been undertaking, through our legislative and our other processes in our church, the discussion of human sexuality. And while Episcopalians may be known for doing things decently and in good order, I assure you that there were times we were neither decent nor in good order. There were times we raised our fists and our voices at one another. There were times that we wept in one another's presence. There were times when we felt God's presence had departed from us. And there were profound times when we knew that the Holy Spirit was among us and guiding us every single step of the way. But what we did in our polity or in our church government surprised everyone who watched it. We meet every three years, not twice a year as the LDS community does, but every three years in a general convention. Watch for us, by the way. It's coming to Salt Lake City in 2015. You are welcome. We'll put you to work. But you will see a legislative and a church process that is open and all its warts and joys and triumphs show. And what we have done for 40 years in every conceivable city and place is to try to figure out who human beings are. What does it mean to be called beloved of God? What does it mean to share in Christ's baptism, to be beloved children of God in whom God is well pleased? For if we truly share in Christ's baptism, in Christ's life, do we not have those words said to each one of us? As Christ heard the holy Voice at the time of his own baptism, do we not share in his love and in his Father's pleasure? Let me move to a profound moment. In 2003, I had been elected to our church's House of Deputies. The governance of the Episcopal Church is nearly identical to that of the United States of America. We have two Houses of Congress, in our case, the House of Bishops and the House of Deputies, composed of priests and laity. And for something to pass, it must pass in both houses and often doesn't. And the standard for our passing something is not a simple majority, but actually the way we count votes is that if you have a split delegation, it counts as a no. So when something passes, it's with a pretty good assent of the body. And we were there in the summer of 2003 in Minneapolis, just two months following the election of Gene Robinson to be bishop of New Hampshire, the first openly gay man that a diocese had elected as their bishop. Now, you know and I know that bishops throughout history have been gay, perhaps in greater numbers, percentage wise, than in the general population. However, for a man to be elected in a partnered relationship of many years standing, already known by his own people, a priest serving in his own diocese, to be raised up by them as their leader, how extraordinary. He was elected in June and we gathered in late July because episcopal process requires that all dioceses have a part in the say, for any diocese as bishop. A majority of all dioceses must consent to the consecration of a bishop. So just because he was elected didn't mean that they would be able to have him as their bishop. We gathered at General Convention, the house of bishops, the house of deputies, and we had to find a larger ballroom to have the hearing in 2000. People attended. And for hour after hour after hour, people stood at microphones and did what Episcopalians do, we argue publicly.

Guest 4 [00:39:21] Yay.

Guest 2 [00:39:27] And press people after press people kept coming up and saying, this is how you do this. And we said, well, God's in the mess and the chaos. But actually they were quite surprised at how respectful the whole process is, because we hope we have developed the skills of listening reverently to one another and listening to the Holy Spirit in the voices of our brothers and sisters. And so we heard argument after argument, pro con, pro con, a mile long line at each microphone arguing of why we should or should not consent to the consecration of the bishop of New Hampshire. The day for the vote came. It was a Sunday afternoon. We have a rule on the floor of our houses. There shall be no demonstrations of any kind. When votes are taken, they are met with complete silence. This too surprises the press, for we honor and care for those who might not have been the winners. And we rejoice with those for whom our votes are good news by rejoicing through the Spirit's presence. The time came for us to vote. We voted lay people and clergy separately, calling a vote by orders, which is always called when people want to slow something down or make sure it doesn't pass. It's a harder standard to pass something, and that meant we couldn't use our clicking machines to vote. By the way, the Episcopal General Convention is the World's largest legislature. That says something about who we are as a Christian community. 1300 people sat there and voted. But we had to do so by paper. And when the piece of paper came around to my vote, my hand was shaking so hard I didn't know what to do. My hand was shaking so hard because I knew that my vote to confirm the election of Gene Robinson would change the church, that it would change the wider Christian community. And that things would never, ever be the same again. That we were doing something so momentous that we couldn't sleep the night before. And we sure couldn't sleep the days after. We knew there would be those who were profoundly wounded by what we did. And there would be those whose joy would overflow in such measure that it could not be captured. I wanted to stand with that latter crowd. I wanted to stand with them for so many reasons. I wanted to stand with them for the same reason that I accepted appointment to be a board member of the Gay Men's Chorus of Los Angeles. The only straight person and the only female on the board. It got lonely. However, what I learned through that board service was not just how to have an awful lot of fun with a consummately fine musical organization, but I also learned that as a person who's professionally religious, I wasn't always welcome in the community of gay men with whom I worked. Their pain and woundedness at the hands of the church was so great that I started out in the negative numbers. And that hurt me deeply. Deeply. I had taken a degree in music, which is how I wound up in this as an opera singer. Before I began my theological studies. I had been around musicians since I was very small and growing up. And as you know, gay and lesbian persons are perhaps well represented in the artistic community. And so as long as I can remember, I have been in the company of good gay and lesbian, transgendered and bisexual persons, many of whom were exemplars to me of what it meant to love God and to be faithful in relationship. When I joined the Episcopal church, I was 18 years old, having come out of sort of garden variety United States Army, Protestant chapelism. And I joined the Episcopal Church. And I began to hear a church that was dealing openly with issues of human sexuality. Who are we as human people? How has God made us? How does God love us? And I stayed in the Episcopal Church, fighting two battles. The first about women. For I had nearly completed my theological education before our church voted in 1976 to ordain women to the priesthood. I've now been Ordained a priest for 32 years. There are still folk who get up and walk out when I preside at a service. It may always be thus, but I have also been active working with gay and lesbian persons, supporting, speaking on their behalf to those members of our church who are not there yet, but who will, in God's good time, be. What I would say to you today is to keep heart. Do not abandon your faith communities, for your voices are much, much needed. And while the time seems long, what I can assure us all, and I became a church historian in my academic life, and I can assure you it takes far more centur to change things in the church of the past than it does in the present. And what shocks me so is how quickly some things are happening in the Christian community. And I can ascribe it only to two extraordinary things. One is the holy Spirit of God acting in a way that is remarkable. And the other is that extraordinary thing called the Internet, which I do not always ascribe to God's good hand, but I know that God is able to use anything. And so our communications are different. And people who could not hear the roar of the membership of their own churches can now across the world

John Dehlin [00:47:06] hear

Guest 2 [00:47:07] me cry, say glbet people to the members of their faith communities. Hear my stories, hear the love I have for my traditions, hear the love I bear for my partner, for my parents, for my children, and do not shun me. Have you ever been to Jacob's well? Have any of you ever traveled to Israel? Have you been in that place which is surely the ancient well itself? You go into a small Greek Orthodox church that has been built over the well head, and an ancient of days Greek orthodox priest comes to you and bids you welcome. And you go to the well that's in the center of a building no bigger than this chapel, and you pull up a tin cup on a string and you drink of this well. In one of the most solemnly religious experiences I have ever had, I stood with 20 other Episcopalians and we passed that cup around and we drank of that living water. And Christ our Lord was present with us. Now, when we entered that church, no one said, who are you? Are you the right kind of folk? Are you worthy to drink of this well? Have you sinned this morning or just now? Were you born the wrong shape, the wrong size, the wrong sexual orientation? No questions were asked of us. The ancient of days orthodox priest says, welcome. And we stood and we drank of that living water from our savior's hand. And we remembered the love that God Bears to each of God's own children. If you have been baptized, and I suspect most here have been, remember that in that baptism you are claimed as Christ's own forever. And that voice is said to you as much as it was to Jesus the Savior. You are my beloved child, and in you I am well pleased. Go to bed at night hearing those words until you believe them. And share them. And share them. Have patience. God is not done with any church yet. Amen.

Musical Offerings and Closing Celebration

Guest 4 [00:50:35] All right, so originally Alan asked me to play just one, so it was a little bit of the last minute to think of another. But luckily I brought my friend, Clay. Clay and I were best friends in high school. We went to prom together.

John Dehlin [00:50:53] We.

Guest 4 [00:50:57] Yeah, who hasn't done that?

Guest 3 [00:50:58] And

Guest 4 [00:51:00] we spent hours in music independent study together, improvising and making up songs and playing hymns. And you'd think that I wouldn't need to do that whole Boyd K. Packer hymns only thing here, but I really, as I developed my skills as a violinist and, and continued my activity in Mormon church, I just found that it was easier for people to relate to the music that they knew and that they could sing along in their heads and in their hearts. So we're going to play an arrangement of a couple more hymns for you. Clay wrote it and we souped it up for you this morning in memory of all of our high school days together.

John Dehlin [00:56:38] The beauty of that music is profound. Thank you. In the name of Christ. Good afternoon. This has been a wonderful, wonderful morning and a wonderful weekend. I just cannot say how much it has meant to me to be a part of it, especially to be in your midst. Your courage, your faith, your integrity and dignity are very moving and very inspiring to me. And so thank you so much. My good friend Carter Heywood, an Episcopal priest, feminist and lesbian theologian, Christian theologian and fellow North Carolinian, has said that there is something common to us all, something that we all share that is more basic than our religion, our gender, our sexual orientation, our race or ethnicity or color. There is something basic to us all that we all share that defines who we are. And that something is that we are lovers. God has created us to be lovers. We are created in God's image. God, the great lover, has created us to be lovers. Our capacity, our ability to love is our capacity to. To be spiritual. The more expansive our love, the deeper and richer is our spirituality. It is love that is that energy, that spiritual energy within us that pushes us outside of our self centeredness, out of our isolation, to connect with others, in intimacy, in friendship and in community. The power of love that we have within us is not just a gift that comes from God. It is the very presence, presence of God within us. The passage Sarah read this morning from the first letter of John, just after that verse that she read, says that when we love, God's love is perfected in us. God dwells in us. When we love, it is God's presence in us. When we love. Love comes from God. We are able to love because God loves us first. And we are set free from our self centeredness, our isolation, our inward looking narcissism. And we are pushed out to connect with others in love. The more we are able to love, the the more connected we are with God and with one another. And if our love is restricted or limited in any way, the less we are connected to God and the less we are connected to each other. Throughout history, there have been institutions and people and social mores that have tried to control who we can love. In ancient times we were told, you cannot love someone of the other village or you cannot love someone of the other tribe. You cannot love someone of the other religion, or of the other nation, or of the other color or race or class, or of the same gender. There is something about love that does not like barriers, that does not like to be fenced in, that does not like to be limited, that does not like to be told you are not allowed in that neighborhood. There is something about love that is revolutionary, that pushes down barriers. There are things within us that limit love, that restrict our capacity to reach out and to grow spiritually and to connect with others. There is fear. There is that insecure self centeredness that we can feel and want just things for ourselves and be unwilling to give and to reach out. There is bitterness for wounds we have received, injuries that have been caused to us. These impair our ability to love. But I want to tell you this morning that there is no one, no person, no institution, whether religious or civil, that has the authority, the power to tell us who we cannot love. No one can tell us who we cannot love. The only thing that stands in our way and our ability to love are those fears. The sense of shame that we may have about who we are, or bitterness that we might carry. Those are the only limiting realities that have any power over our love. And when we can overcome fear and the shame of being who we are because others have made us feel shame, or the bitterness that we have because of injuries we have received, then our love can flow freely. We can be set free to love without fear. When I was first asked to conduct a holy union, a covenant ceremony for a same gender couple back in 1990, it was almost an automatic yes. I had no hesitation at all. For I believe that there is no way to affirm the humanity and the dignity of an individual without also affirming their relationships. We don't live in isolation, we don't live alone. We live in relationships. And whenever there is love joining people together, that love should be celebrated and honored. And so in 1990, for Thomas and Timothy, it was my honor and my joy to share with them a blessing upon them in a typical marriage ceremony with their family and their friends, celebrating the love that joins them together, celebrating the love of God that was in their midst that made them one. It's not always so easy to get to the point of publicly celebrating love, especially if you're same gender loving. In September of 1998, I celebrated the Covenant Ceremony in Omaha, Nebraska for two women I call Mary and Martha. You might guess that's not their real names, and you would be right. It was a holy moment in the sanctuary of First United Methodist Church. They were there with their families and their friends. We celebrated their love for one another. I prayed God's blessing upon Mary and Martha and the life they were creating together. We shared the Eucharist. It was a holy moment. But it was in many ways the end of two long, torturous journeys that had come together at that moment. Mary grew up in Salt Lake City. She was a Mormon. She had been taught all her life that what was expected of her was to marry a man, have children, and be a good wife and a good mother. But she had known from childhood that she was attracted to women and was not attracted to men. But she felt the obligation to fulfill the expectations that her family and her community and her church placed upon her. And she did her very best. But there was some emptiness inside. Something that was not honest, something that was not real, something inauthentic inside of

Guest 4 [01:06:05] her

John Dehlin [01:06:07] to the point where she felt very ashamed of who she was. She felt God had judged her and condemned her. And she tried twice to take her life. After the second attempt, she decided the only way for her to survive would be to leave all that she knew, all that was familiar, her family, her community and her church, but most especially her God. She felt that if she was to live, she could not believe in God any longer. And so she left Salt Lake City and made her way to Omaha. Martha grew up in the Roman Catholic Church. Very similar story. She was told that her purpose in Life was to marry a man, have children, be a good mother, a good wife. She tried to. Was married for 20 years, had three children. But she also had this sense that she was not being true to herself, that she was being inauthentic, that she was not real. And so, after 20 years of marriage, came out to her husband, who, who turned out to be her very best friend, who was her best friend, who helped her through the process of coming out. He loved her dearly, and she loved him dearly. And he wanted her to be whole and healthy and authentic, to be her true self. And so he helped her out. And as a divorced, publicly or out lesbian, she was no longer able to worship at the cathedral. And so again, she had to disconnect from her religious moorings, her tradition, and found herself in exile. In many ways, Mary and Martha had gone into the wilderness, leaving behind what had been familiar, but what had also been the source of great pain. And they felt alone. They felt they had left God behind. But the truth of the matter is, God was not behind, had not been left behind. God was in them. It was God's power. It was God that was within them, that was pushing them and empowering them and enabling them to be honest about who they are and to come to wholeness. It was a painful process. No birth or rebirth is ever without pain. No journey toward wholeness is never without pain. And so they came together in Omaha. They met some friends who told them about a church where there was a God of love, not a God of judgment and condemnation. They couldn't believe that their traditions had not been traditions where they really had been convinced that God was a God of love and not judgment. But they found their way to First United Methodist Church. They found that God did love them, embraced them and affirmed them in the fullness of their humanity, not just part of who they are. And they were able to become lovers, first lovers of themselves. For they had left with great shame, feeling there was something wrong with them. And they learned that no God loved them. They had been created to be who they are. And once able to love themselves, then they were able to love another. In 1999, just a year or so after that wonderful holy moment, I was invited to preach at Riverside Church in New York City. And I told the story of Mary and Martha. And I reflected theologically on what was happening. And this was part of my sermon. While Mary and Martha thought they left God, God never left them. God was the power within each of them that would not let them deny themselves, that nudged them to Leave behind the dishonesty and embrace and honor their true selves as a sacred gift. This was God's active, gracious love. It did not come from their religious training, nor from the expectations of families and friends. It came from the deepest place within their souls that knew the truth. This is what we Methodists call prevenient grace. The grace of God, the love of God that comes to us even before we know it's there and claims, embraces and empowers us to be whole. Mary and Martha's covenant ceremony was a victory of faith and love over fear and oppression. It was a sign that they had individually survived their long, torturous journeys and were finally able to love themselves. And once able to love themselves, they were able to love each other. Finally, they were free to love without fear. The Christian Church must no longer demand that the Marys and Marthas of the world remain in the closet of fear, rejection and self hatred. No, the Christian Church must join God in offering to all lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people the assurance of what God has already done blessed them and their loving with honor and dignity. When I prayed God's blessing upon Mary and Martha, I was only voicing what God already had done. By God's grace, they had been set free from fear and free to love. It is the power of God within us that enables us to be authentic, to be who we are, truly who we are, and to be able to love ourselves and others. The message from God is, are created to be a lover, and God does not intend for you to be alone. Feel free to love in the name of Christ. Amen.

Joseph Broom [01:13:09] I'd like to extend our thanks to all of those who have participated in today's service. Again, we would like to especially extend our congratulations to Russ on his upcoming wedding. And we wish him and his partner a lifetime of happiness together. We would also like to especially express our appreciation to Bishop Kloosterman, to Reverend Nestler, and to Jimmy Creech for their inspiring words today. Brothers and sisters, I think we can all go from here knowing in our hearts that God does love us and he has a plan for each of us. Might I encourage each of us to go forth as soldiers in his army, if you can accept that metaphor, to help the rest of the world understand the truth so that those who are in our community, who are like us in suffering, can find peace and joy in this life? And remember, men are all of us, all men and women are, that we might have joy. We'll close today's services by singing together. How great thou art, after which Jessica Truman will offer the benediction.

Guest 3 [01:14:56] Our dear Heavenly Father and Mother, we come before Thee after listening to these wonderful words of peace and solace, to thank Thee from the bottom of our hearts for the Spirit that confirms truth, for the knowledge that we are Thy children, that Thou knows our pain and Thou loves us. And we ask for Thy spirit to move forward in joy and in pride, with dignity. Yet the knowledge of who we are and who all our brothers and sisters are, that we might reach out to our communities as we tell our stories and listen to theirs too, that there might be formed bonds of mutual admiration on both sides of this issue as we come unto Thee and we say these things and again are so grateful for the friendships we have formed here this weekend. We love Thee and are so grateful for our Savior and our Redeemer. In the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.

Joseph Broom [01:16:13] This podcast was brought to you today by Mormon Stories Podcast and by the Open Stories Foundation. To learn more about LDS homosexuality, please check out gaymormonstories.org music on today's podcast was brought to you by the Saber Rattlers. Take care.

John Dehlin [01:16:36] Of Redemption will come when all that was promised, the saints will be given and none will molest them. From morning till and earth will appear as a Garden of Eden and Jesus will say to all Israel, come home.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.