Introduction and Welcome

John Dehlin [00:00:06] Mormon Stories podcast is a production of the Open Stories Foundation. All donations to Mormon Stories are fully tax deductible and go directly towards keeping the podcast alive and towards building a community of support for Mormons like you.

David Michael [00:00:19] Come, come, ye saints. No toil nor labor fear, but with joy when you're.

John Dehlin [00:00:33] What do you guys think? Should we start? Is that all right, if we start? All right, we're gonna start. Okay. Is there anybody here who doesn't know who this man is? Raise your hand if you came here just knowing nothing. Troy Williams has no idea who this man is. All right, so David Michael has a really fun story.

John Dehlin [00:00:51] He lives in Chicago, married with children. No, not married with children. Maybe we'll talk about that, maybe not, and I'll be your therapist for the evening. But he just got this really cool idea that he heard about this thing called the Book of Mormon, and he knew a little bit about Mormons, but not a whole lot. So, yeah, he's got this podcast, and he basically narrates the Book of Mormon, reads the Book of Mormon cold, having not looked ahead, according to, you know, what he tells us. And we have some reason to believe that's true.

David Michael [00:01:26] And it's as little preparation as possible. I don't know if you saw me tonight while you guys were all working on your audio, and I was like, okay, have fun.

John Dehlin [00:01:39] Yeah. So, yeah, so he's done that. And he provides really fun and interesting commentary. Sometimes it's a little bit off color. Is that fair to say? Maybe a little bit sacrilegious, but it's always fun. It's always entertaining. And so that's David Michael, host of my Book of Mormon podcast. Everybody, give David Michael a hand. Welcome to welcome to Zion. Welcome to Zion.

David Michael [00:02:08] Thank you for having me, John. And thank you for having me. Salt Lake City. I've already seen.

John Dehlin [00:02:13] Welcome to Salt Lake City.

David Michael [00:02:15] I'm full of energy because I have this solar panel on my head, and the sun here is way brighter than Chicago, so I'm pumped up.

John Dehlin [00:02:23] Yeah. So we're really glad you're here and glad all of you here. Now I want the truth here. How many of you actually RSVP through Facebook? Raise your hand. How many of you did not RSVP through Facebook? I want to say a swear word at you, but it's okay. I hope everyone got a seat. They actually turned people away at the door, but it's awesome. We're so happy to have all of you here. We're full.

John Dehlin [00:02:49] I understand why people don't always RSVP Believe me, I understand. But we're glad you're here. So with that, I think we're ready to kind of begin. I'm gonna sit on this chair just to make it so those of you in back can see a little bit. And we'll see how long David can sustain sitting on an uncomfortable chair as well. By the way, my name's John De Lynn.

John Dehlin [00:03:12] I'm the host of. For those of you who are his fans and have no idea who I am, my name is John Dehlin. I'm the host of a podcast called Mormon Stories. And thank you, thank you. And how many of you have financially supported Mormon Stories in the past? Raise your hand. Okay, I want to give you a round of applause. Thank you so much.

John Dehlin [00:03:38] I'm four weeks away from completing a six year PhD in clinical and counseling psychology. I started it because there were so many people I knew who were struggling and in need of help, and I figured if they were coming to me for help, I may as well get some training. So literally, in the second year of my PhD, I made a call to my listeners and said, if you guys will support me financially, I'll turn down my assistantships, do Mormon Stories full time, and I'll keep it going. And I would say it's been a pretty good five years. What do you guys think?

John Dehlin [00:04:11] Yeah. So my main point is, literally those of you who supported Mormon Stories, you put food on my table. I have four children, three teenagers. You paid for my tuition, you paid for car, you know, insurance, health insurance for my family. And I just, you know, not to ruin the spirit, the jovial spirit of our evening, but you guys have made a huge difference in the life of me and my family, and you made all this possible.

John Dehlin [00:04:39] So just, can everyone give everyone who's supported Mormon Stories a big round of applause? Thank you. We have a lot of cool stuff coming up in the future once I graduate, but we're not going to talk about that tonight.

John Dehlin [00:04:55] We're going to focus on David. To begin, I wanted to start from the beginning and start where I often start. David, you've had a look a little bit at some of these questions. Normally, I just kind of write my own questions, but this time I really wanted to try and be respectful to your audience. So most of these questions really come from your audience.

John Dehlin [00:05:25] And I'm just going to warn everybody that some of this is going to be a bit of a repeat from either what you've learned on his show or the one interview that my friend Jay Nelson Seawright did with David when you were what, halfway through?

David Michael [00:05:38] Yeah, roughly about half.

John Dehlin [00:05:40] So some of this is going to be a repeat. But that's all right because I think we're going to bring a new. New listeners in this episode. So I'm going to start a bit from the beginning and just say, David, why don't you tell us a bit about your childhood and how maybe some of the things you experienced related to what inspired my Book of Mormon podcast. All right.

David Michael's Religious Background

David Michael [00:06:01] Well, I so certainly was not raised Mormon, so that separates me from a lot of this room. But I do. I was raised in. I understand the indoctrination bubble, I guess. So. I was raised in a very evangelical Christian home. It was the, you know, church. I can't even count how many times a week. Dad was the pastor, Christian school, blah, blah, blah.

John Dehlin [00:06:23] Parents. What city?

David Michael [00:06:24] Philadelphia is where I started.

Guest [00:06:26] Yeah.

David Michael [00:06:27] Then they decided that Jesus told them that they had to move to Soviet Union to be missionaries. So they packed up their family and off we went. So I lived in Latvia for my teenage years, which ended up being pretty cool because I kind of got to watch communism fall and even help tear down a Lenin statue. That was fun. Yeah. So it was definitely interesting. And then came back, joined the Air Force, was stationed in Oklahoma, stayed there, went to University of Oklahoma. Go Sooners. And then. Yeah. Anyway, work took me to Chicago and I've been there about five years, so. Yeah. That's quickest version of my life I can give you.

John Dehlin [00:07:05] Were you ever. Were you ever kind of a believer? In what? Evangelical? Is that how you was. What was the church called?

David Michael [00:07:11] Non denomination Christian. I guess I don't see how to describe it. So dancing, clapping, worship kind of thing. Party worship. You know, electric guitars and drums, people waving their arms, speaking in tongues. No snakes. Yeah. Women could wear pants so that you got the feel. You got it. Yeah. That kind of church. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:34] And. And was there ever a point in your life where you were like a sincere believer?

David Michael [00:07:38] Like, no, not. Not compared to the rest of my family by any stretch. So as a little kid, you don't really know anything other than what you're being told. But even as a very little child, I was always the one asking the questions and sometimes getting in trouble, especially at school and church, for asking those questions because I was just like, well, that doesn't make any sense. We just. Just believe in it. And I'm like, whoa. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:01] But what were some of the. What were some of the issues that kind of you struggled with as a kid?

David Michael [00:08:06] For people that have been following the show, and heard me on other shows. You've probably heard this example, but it's probably the best one I have for that. But I remember being in school, so it was a Christian school, and we had just learned. We just had science class. I think this was second grade, maybe. And we were learning about the earth rotating and how the sun and stars. And it was all very interesting. And then next we had Bible class and we heard the story of Joshua. And so during one of Joshua's battles, he prayed and asked God to leave the sun in the sky so they could finish killing everyone.

David Michael [00:08:34] And God said, no problem, I'll take care of that for you. And so I remember saying, so the Earth stopped spinning. Is that okay? And I remember that day, the teacher, my second grade teacher said, now, David, that was science class. And we're in Bible class now. And I thought, wait, there's two versions of reality.

John Dehlin [00:08:56] That's.

David Michael [00:08:56] I don't understand. So, yeah, I was always that kid. So, yeah, I think. I don't think I was ever really a believer. I mean, I have my siblings all in. I mean, all in. Still to this day, I have a brother that's three quarters out. We'd say, okay, yeah, still has the title, still does the Sunday thing. But he's a Jack Christian. Isn't that a thing we say? Yeah, okay. I've told people I'm starting. I understand conversational Mormonese. I'm not quite fluent yet. Conversational. So I'm getting.

John Dehlin [00:09:29] We'll get you there. Yeah, we'll get you there. Was there ever, like, a conversation you had to have with your parents, like mom and dad? I'm kind of not into this anymore.

David Michael [00:09:38] I think it was more just drifted apart because we just didn't see eye to eye on anything because it's just their whole worldview is wrapped up in that. Especially my mom. She is. If it's not godly, it must be satanic. That's how the world works in her mind. I'm sure I see a lot of nods out there. So I'm assuming I'm not alone in this. Yeah. So even she just censored everything. We actually. If there was any hint of magic, she'd cut it out. So we actually had two VCRs, which back when I was a kid was a big deal. And that was so she could cut parts out of movies before we get to see them. So I actually watched the wizard of Oz with no witch in it.

John Dehlin [00:10:17] Whoa. Not joking. That's hardcore.

David Michael [00:10:20] Now, the wizard was okay because it turns out he wasn't magic, so that was fine. No witch. It was a short movie and quite confusing. But yeah, Disney movies made no sense. So yeah, it was interesting upbringing, but I don't know, I just, I was just always asking questions and I also found ways to get out of my bubble. So just in the neighborhood, meeting the different kids and oh, you believe different things, you know, Let me hear about that. So yeah, as you, as you.

Comparing Faith Transitions Across Religions

John Dehlin [00:10:49] And we'll talk more about what you've experienced in terms of talking with others about kind of a Mormon transition away. Would you say it was fundamentally different than what Mormons or other churches like ours might experience? People, people from these traditions. Was it easier?

David Michael [00:11:06] Different. Different in the fact, I mean it's hard to say. I think that you have different traditions, but they're just, they're still just weird from an outsider. But other anyone's traditions are weird from an outsider. Right. I mean if you went to a Catholic church and you said, I think I talked to somebody earlier about this. So wait, you actually think you're eating someone's flesh right now? Like that doesn't bother you? You know, I mean, it just sounds so bizarre to someone outside of that.

David Michael [00:11:33] So I mean, everyone's got their own weird thing. You're baptizing dead people is wacky, but wow, that one someone's got to really explain to me. But again, it's because, you know, you don't know it. So you come in, you hear it and it just sounds so strange. So it's different. But I think it's the people just trying to make sense of what they don't understand in the world. And then some people figured out a way a long time ago and people just clung to it despite evidence to the contrary.

John Dehlin [00:12:03] And based on your understanding of how hard it is for a Mormon to leave their faith, was it comparably hard for you to leave yours?

David Michael [00:12:10] I think Mormons have a little bit tougher time because your early ancestors did such a good job of creating a really self contained bubble. A large one too. Right. I mean, so there's no. So even in the like where I was raised, yeah, we had this little church we went to and it was, you know, and I went to a Christian school and everything, but all I had to do was go a block away and hang out with the heathens. Right. I mean, it wasn't hard. There's areas within the Mormon culture that, at least from the experience of people that have talked to me where that's just not an option. You're surrounded in every way. I think that is pretty uniquely Mormon and probably is only duplicated in, like, Islamic countries in some parts of the world where there's just no escape. It's just. It's all around you.

John Dehlin [00:12:58] Yeah. So it's maybe a little bit harder. Okay, so. And what you major in at Oklahoma?

Origins of My Book of Mormon Podcast

David Michael [00:13:04] Business Administration.

John Dehlin [00:13:05] Okay.

Guest [00:13:06] All right.

John Dehlin [00:13:07] All right.

David Michael [00:13:07] So businessman in business. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:10] Yeah. So take us from there to the crazy idea to start a podcast on Book of Mormon.

David Michael [00:13:18] Okay. Well, I've always been fascinated with the idea of faith, because I've just never really had it. And so many people that are so close to me are just so bought into this idea, and, you know, you just want to understand your parents and siblings, and it's difficult to. So I've. I guess the way I've looked at it in. When I've looked at other religions, I'm always kind of said I'm going to give it as best of a shot as I can and see if they have a strong case to make. So I've. I've read the Bible cover to cover. I've read most of the Quran. Some of the. How do you pronounce it? Bhav Gita, Bahava, whatever. The Hindu one.

John Dehlin [00:13:57] Sorry.

David Michael [00:13:57] But, yeah, some of that.

John Dehlin [00:13:58] Was it.

David Michael [00:13:59] Whoever said it out there. Bhagavad Gita. Bhagavad Gita. Nailed it. Well done. Okay. Have a drink. Okay. So I've always been somewhat fascinated with just the idea of religious beliefs and understanding different cultures, and religion's a big part of different cultures around the world. And so there was. I probably would have gotten around to this book eventually anyway, just because I'm weird and read that stuff.

John Dehlin [00:14:25] So tell us why you didn't start with my Quran podcast.

David Michael [00:14:29] I did make an attempt.

John Dehlin [00:14:30] That was a joke.

David Michael [00:14:31] No, I did. There are two episodes on my laptop called My Quran. No, Firsttime Quran is what it was called. And did you guys know that? Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:42] Some of you did.

David Michael [00:14:43] Yeah, it's. It was. God, that book's so boring.

John Dehlin [00:14:46] It's.

David Michael [00:14:46] There's no way to make it fun. There's just not. If there's. I can't imagine that there's a Muslim in the room, but if there is, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with your belief, but your book is boring anyway, so. Yeah, it was a brave man.

John Dehlin [00:15:00] It's a brave man, Right?

David Michael [00:15:01] No way to make it fun. It just wasn't fun. I mean, the first. But the Bible is called the Cow. How exciting can it be? Anyway, all right. So anyway, the cow. The Cow.

John Dehlin [00:15:12] Is that what Quran means?

David Michael [00:15:13] No, that's the first book of the Quran.

John Dehlin [00:15:15] Okay, okay, okay.

David Michael [00:15:15] It's called the Cow.

John Dehlin [00:15:16] Okay.

David Michael [00:15:17] And it's about a cow. Anyway.

John Dehlin [00:15:22] Sorry. Okay. Did you. Did you false start any other holy.

David Michael [00:15:27] No, that one. And then so then I went to watch the Book of Mormon musical in Chicago and that's cheating, by the way. Was that spoilers? I got spoilers a little bit. I don't know. I don't think I did.

John Dehlin [00:15:39] Maybe it's kind of dancing Moroni, doesn't it?

David Michael [00:15:44] Well, I didn't know what it meant at the time.

John Dehlin [00:15:45] I'm kidding.

David Michael [00:15:46] You could tell the mark whenever there was like some Mormon jokes in there and then you'd hear like sporadic laughter and everyone else would be going, I don't.

John Dehlin [00:15:57] And the rest is just all F words, right?

David Michael [00:15:59] Yeah, pretty much. And maggots. And I'll leave it at that. Some. Yeah, the people laughing. I've seen it. Okay. But there was a full page ad in the playbill that said something to the effect of, you like, did you like the play? Question mark? The book's even better. And then it had a picture of the Book of Mormon and I thought, hey, I'll give it a shot. I'll take you up on your offer.

John Dehlin [00:16:22] It's almost like inspiration, isn't it?

David Michael [00:16:24] Yeah. As Mormon Expressions podcast. Where is he? There he is. He said, Adam, Adam, over here.

John Dehlin [00:16:31] Everybody say hi to Adam.

David Michael [00:16:32] Yeah. Adam, I believe you said that we should let the LDS marketing department know that it worked on at least one person. I took them up on the challenge. So, yeah, that's when I started it. And I thought. And the other reason, just people all my life have said, you should be in broadcasting. You have a good radio voice. And like, okay. But I just, I don't think there's money in that. So I'm going to go do the making money path instead. And so I honestly took this on as a hobby. I thought it might be something fun to do. I thought it might get difficult. Few laughs and we'll see. And I wasn't sure even if it was going to work. Like with the Quran. I just don't think it was going to work. But I read the first episode, I was like, oh, I got a winner. We're good to go.

John Dehlin [00:17:22] You were hooked.

David Michael [00:17:22] We're good to go. We're reading this thing. Yeah.

Guest [00:17:26] Yeah.

David Michael [00:17:27] That was a hell of a start to a book.

John Dehlin [00:17:32] By chapter three, you were really rolling, right?

David Michael [00:17:35] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:35] All right. So excellent. So what month and year did you start?

David Michael [00:17:43] April 2014. But then I didn't. I recorded five episodes before I released it.

John Dehlin [00:17:48] Okay.

David Michael [00:17:49] So it was released in May of 2014.

John Dehlin [00:17:52] Okay. A little over a year ago, just for the historians. Now we're at the end of June 2015. And you. You finished reading it a few weeks ago, is that right?

David Michael [00:18:01] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Reading the.

John Dehlin [00:18:02] What's the date? June. What? 25th. Okay. June 25th. It was.

David Michael [00:18:06] It was about a year.

John Dehlin [00:18:07] Historians. Michael Quinn, it's June 25th, if you're listening. Okay. All right. That's an insider joke.

David Michael [00:18:16] Okay. It was hilarious. Everybody else laughs. I was. You nailed it.

John Dehlin [00:18:20] Thank you. Thank you very much. Okay, so good. All right. So I think. I think what's gotta be most fascinating about your podcast, I think culturally, Mormons are a tad bit narcissistic. Is that fair to say? So, obviously, the appeal of your podcast to Mormons is that, like, we're fascinated to hear what an outsider really thinks about our scripture. And so that's interesting, I think, to a lot of your audience here, as I understand it, you have believing members who listen.

David Michael [00:19:00] Yeah, that's true. I don't know why still, but that's true. If you had asked me, think of any demographic that's going to enjoy this show, I never would have picked that one, but apparently, there they are. Well, a lot of people wrote and said that they were excited to hear me convert.

John Dehlin [00:19:17] Like, they knew it was imminent. Right, right.

David Michael [00:19:20] Because they're just taught your whole life that all you have to do, getting some feedback there, but all you have to do is get someone to read the book and then they'll convert. And so it's like the whole idea, as a missionary, and trust me, this is all hearsay. I Don't tell me if I'm wrong, but just get people to read it and God will take care of the rest. And so it was like, wow, we didn't have to work on this guy. He's just doing it by himself. It's fantastic. So, yeah, that was. That's. I know it's a lot, but surely a few episodes in, people had to realize, oh, this isn't going according to. According to plan.

John Dehlin [00:19:52] You disappointed about. You might have 16 million people.

David Michael [00:19:55] Well.

John Dehlin [00:19:56] Or 4 million. You know, depends.

David Michael [00:19:58] People deconverted listening to it.

John Dehlin [00:20:00] Yeah.

David Michael [00:20:00] At least what they said. So anyway, what happened?

John Dehlin [00:20:03] Okay.

David Michael [00:20:04] Turned down. We got to get closer now.

John Dehlin [00:20:06] Richard's adjusting the audience.

David Michael [00:20:07] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:20:08] Okay. So, yeah, so that's. But. But, you know, in addition to hearing. Yeah, I think in addition to Hearing your commentary and perspective, I think you provide really interesting insight, and I think that's super valuable. And honestly, it's so amazing how moved and touched believing Mormons are by the book. I mean, it's certainly one of the most important things in their life. And thank you, Doug. Appreciate that. Where's the love?

David Michael [00:20:43] In honor of Doug.

John Dehlin [00:20:44] Where's the love? No, I'm just kidding.

David Michael [00:20:46] Drink for Doug.

John Dehlin [00:20:47] Water. Water for me. Agu. I'm not there yet, guys. Give me some time. Not there.

David Michael [00:20:54] Do you not drink at all?

John Dehlin [00:20:55] I still never tried alcohol.

David Michael [00:20:58] You got. What do you think tonight? It's brand new.

John Dehlin [00:21:04] That's why they're here, by the way.

David Michael [00:21:06] Brand new.

John Dehlin [00:21:06] That's why they're here. They wanted to see.

David Michael [00:21:08] This is a little strong. Do we start them with an ipa? That seems a bit rough. Yeah, maybe some little. Will someone think of something?

John Dehlin [00:21:20] Thank you. Thank you, brother.

David Michael [00:21:22] You didn't know what you were walking into tonight?

John Dehlin [00:21:23] I'm afraid I have no idea. You'll have to tie me down and chip my tooth. Force it down my throat. That's a Mormon joke. Who got it? Raise your hand if you got that joke. All right. Okay. So. All right. So there are lots of reasons why, but honestly, so many people find this book inspiring and holy, and so it really is shocking to have somebody tell us what they really think, because, you know, if you're a missionary and somebody reads it, you either, like, they say they're converted and they get baptized, or you, like, never see them again. But how often have we, as Mormons had the chance to actually have a conversation with someone who's actually taken the text seriously and who's actually willing to share with us what they think of it in such a comprehensive way? And I think that's really interesting.

Reading the Book of Mormon Cover to Cover

David Michael [00:22:15] So, yeah, no pressure on me. No pressure to be comprehensive now. All right.

John Dehlin [00:22:21] All right, so. So we got to. We have to start kind of getting into the meat of this with the most important thing. So for those of you who are mimos will know that you have a drinking game as a part of your podcast. Now, that didn't start immediately, right?

David Michael [00:22:35] No.

John Dehlin [00:22:35] Tell us the story. Tell us the story of the drinking game.

David Michael [00:22:38] Okay, so it was around. It was episode nine. It was when it was introduced. It was never, ever did I plan for it to be a part of the show. I thought it would be a funny joke to do once. So it was an itunes review.

David Michael [00:22:51] And if I ever meet him, is 21st century boy here by any chance? He's never, never outed himself. No idea who he is. He's a mystery. Anyway, that's the person who left an itunes review that said, great idea for a drinking game. Every time David says it came to pass or yay, take a drink. And I thought, well, that sounds funny. We'll try.

David Michael [00:23:10] So, yeah, it was about the ninth episode. I was like, hey, let's try this. So I did it. And like, halfway through, I actually said, in my head, I'm thinking, God, this is getting annoying. Like, I'm saying drink all the time, you know?

David Michael [00:23:24] And so after that, I thought, okay, that's. That. That was fun. That's the end of that. So then, you know, I went to record the next episode, episode 10. Didn't even think about it. Just read it normally. And I've never gotten so many emails. Like, you guys blew up my inbox. So where did the drinking game go? That was the greatest thing ever.

David Michael [00:23:42] So I came back and said, okay, if you want it. And I even said, if you remember back, you can listen to the beginning of 11. I guess it would be where I said, if even one person emails me and says, stop, I will stop. But no one has. Everyone likes this.

David Michael [00:23:58] So now I can't imagine the show without it, quite frankly. So I've loved the. How much the show has evolved because of you. Like, when I even listen back to the first few episodes now, I'm like, oh, no. It's just. It doesn't. It's. You're not in it. You know, it's just me. And so, yeah, I think it was. It was a fun. It's absolutely become a huge part of the show. Half of the tweets that I see involve the word drink in them. So, yeah, great.

John Dehlin [00:24:23] So by show of hands, how many of you have actually consumed alcoholic beverages while listening to his podcast?

David Michael [00:24:28] Raise your hand, I'm afraid.

John Dehlin [00:24:29] Pretty good. That's pretty good. You have. Yeah, we know about that. There's a story behind that one. Okay, so, excellent. So we did have a. We did have a member of our audience. I think it was Cheryl who asked, what beer do you drink? She's dying to know, what beer do you usually drink when you.

David Michael [00:24:44] It's going to be disappointing because you never know. Yeah, it usually. Because you don't know what's coming up. I once had to drink eight beers in an hour. You can't drink that.

John Dehlin [00:24:54] It'll kill you.

David Michael [00:24:57] Yeah, yeah. So. So play it safe, because you just don't know. Actually, the record would have been episode five had the show been around and it would have been 17 beers. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:08] Can anybody beat that? Anybody here consume more beers in an episode?

Guest [00:25:12] No.

John Dehlin [00:25:12] Okay. All right.

David Michael [00:25:13] No one can drink 17 beers in an hour, can they?

John Dehlin [00:25:16] I don't know.

David Michael [00:25:18] We have some volunteers over here.

John Dehlin [00:25:21] We have some volunteers.

David Michael [00:25:21] Line them up.

John Dehlin [00:25:23] All right.

David Michael [00:25:25] If you drink them all, they're free. Is that part of the. That'd be a fun game.

John Dehlin [00:25:30] Okay, so. So do we. Do we instigate the drinking game here or is that too dangerous?

David Michael [00:25:37] Well, we have to pick a word.

John Dehlin [00:25:38] Yeah. What's the word?

David Michael [00:25:42] Holy crap.

John Dehlin [00:25:44] Super excited.

David Michael [00:25:45] I don't know that you're super excited

John Dehlin [00:25:49] to have at the beginning.

David Michael [00:25:51] All right, let's make it easier. How about every time we say the word Mormon?

John Dehlin [00:25:56] Whoa, that's good for Doug. All right.

David Michael [00:26:03] You don't even get to say you're not drinking.

John Dehlin [00:26:05] Okay, so. Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry. Okay, so you're going to yell drink or what does the audience yell? Drink.

David Michael [00:26:13] Yeah, let's.

John Dehlin [00:26:13] You guys, it's your job to yell drink when the word Mormon.

David Michael [00:26:16] Class participation

John Dehlin [00:26:19] and water counts. All right, so here we go. Okay, so. So I think. I think sort of jumping right into the meat from an outsider's perspective, were there. What were sort of the major things that kind of jumped out at you? Reading the Book of Mormon? Just.

David Michael [00:26:38] Drake,

John Dehlin [00:26:42] you guys are on the ball.

David Michael [00:26:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:45] All right. What stood out the most and why? Big themes, high level.

David Michael [00:26:51] Well, let's just start with the intro.

John Dehlin [00:26:53] Okay.

David Michael [00:26:55] So I really think, and I mean this, if you're. I don't think anyone ever wrote it, or. Or it's not designed in a way to be read cover to cover, but for anyone that's going to read it cover to cover, you need to move that to the end. Like, you don't open up with that. Like, it starts out kind of like a late night infomercial where you've got the. Well, I tried John's Get Rich program and it worked for me.

Guest [00:27:18] Right.

David Michael [00:27:19] You have that kind of thing, like these testimonials that don't really say anything other than, yeah, I believe it. You know, so that was like. It just made it seem less credible right off the bat. And then you had the.

John Dehlin [00:27:32] So you didn't buy the three and the eight witnesses. They weren't compelling to you?

David Michael [00:27:35] Well, they didn't really say anything. One of them said, we saw something that had. What was it? Interesting? No. What was the word? Curious workmanship or something like that. It was like, okay, what does that mean? And then the other one said like, well, an angel showed us Something. It's like, well, did you actually see something? And then. I don't know, I just. It just didn't. It just. Yeah, it sounded more like someone trying to cover their ass than someone. I just, I just how it felt, okay. When I read it, it just seemed like an odd thing to have in there. And also, 11 people.

David Michael [00:28:08] What are you talking. I mean, I've said this before. I can find 11,000 that swear they were abducted by aliens. It doesn't mean it happened. You know, it's just like 11 people, that's nothing. Anyway, so that was odd. And then Moroni shows up.

David Michael [00:28:21] That was. Wow. Like I. He just, he might have had Alzheimer's. He has an issue. He just kept coming back and forth saying the same thing. It was just so right off the bat you're like, what is happening? And then I was actually somewhat. When I heard about these plates in the beginning, I thought, okay, well at least they have plates. And then you're reading the story and it's like, oh. And then Ron, I took them back to heaven. You're like, oh, come on, there's not even plates. Come on. Like, this is so, yeah, all of that. If it just goes to the end, it's almost like you have the Bible.

David Michael [00:28:50] There's no like beginning story to say where the Bible came from. You just have it, right? So just tell the story and then maybe in another book, a little pamphlet somewhere. Where did it come from? I just think it. I think that would work better. It was a bit of a shock. Bit of a shock.

David Michael [00:29:06] So, yeah, that was the, the initial, that. But again, I knew I was like, I can have fun with this book if this is what they're starting it with. This is good. What was the actual question?

John Dehlin [00:29:16] Yeah, so that was the first theme. So the beginning.

David Michael [00:29:20] Yeah, yeah, that was one.

John Dehlin [00:29:22] What was.

David Michael [00:29:23] Let's just move down the list.

John Dehlin [00:29:24] No, that's all right. So, you know, just overall, like, were there any major sort of themes or surprises or things that really struck you? And we'll get into sort of some of the enlightening things and the more disturbing things. But any other kind of high level observations or.

Favorite Characters and Story Impressions

David Michael [00:29:43] There did. The story did start to repeat itself a lot. And especially the God character, he just didn't seem to be able to learn from mistakes at all. Like he kept making people rich, which would then make them prideful, which then he would have to kill them for being prideful and then he'd make them rich again. It just kept going on and on.

John Dehlin [00:30:03] And you were waiting for God to catch on.

David Michael [00:30:05] It was like eventually, you know, even. Even Captain Moroni eventually figured out how to lay siege to a city after losing millions of people running against walls. He figured it out. God never did. There was another thing God kept screwing up. Oh. His marketing plan for his message was always to send some old, ragged man into a city and just babble on a street corner. It's like, it's not working.

David Michael [00:30:27] No one's listening to them, figure another way out. And he just. He wouldn't do it. And then now and then, he could speak from the sky. So, you know, he had other methods, but that was just to brag about killing people. And so it was.

David Michael [00:30:40] Yeah, those two things. His. His marketing plan needed serious revision. He just never caught on. And then, yeah, his. His whole idea of giving money to corrupt people to punish them, and then they'd get better, and then you bless them again, which corrupts them. It's like it was an endless circle.

John Dehlin [00:30:58] Okay, all right. Were there any characters, like, favorite characters that stick out?

David Michael [00:31:03] I. I do. I had the most fun with army choppy guy, Hammond Ammon. Yeah, he was okay.

John Dehlin [00:31:11] What'd you think of that Ammon story?

David Michael [00:31:13] Well, Ammon was the. He was the. So first of all, he had courage, right? So he just wandered into enemy territory, this sworn enemy that would just kill any Nephite on sight, and he's like, well, I'm just gonna go there and meet the king. Worked so good for him. So, I mean, that took some. That took some Coneys, pull that off. So he made it in, and he's like, I'll just work for you. Which I think, didn't he offer him his daughter? And he didn't want it, so he might have been. Maybe didn't like ladies, but which, remember later, didn't he have a thing with Limhi? Is that right? Not Limhi. Yeah, so they had a thing. So that might have been why he turned down his daughter. But anyway, that's fine.

John Dehlin [00:31:59] But she could have been a beard, actually.

David Michael [00:32:01] Could have been. But then. Yeah, so then his character just got exciting when he just started just going crazy on the people that wanted to steal sheep, just chopping off arms and killing him with slings. It was just fun. It was fun. It was fun story because other stories were like, really bad things happened here and lots of people died, but you didn't get detail. That one was like. It was very detailed, so it was fun. And then he also, you know, as a missionary, was by far the most successful. I mean, he did his job Well, I mean, yeah, I had to break a few eggs to make the omelette,

John Dehlin [00:32:34] but he did pull it off.

David Michael [00:32:37] Most of the other missionaries in the book would just go like, well, I tried God, but they're stiff naked. What do you want me to do? Sorry. So he was. I thought he was the. At least successful as a character. I like Damon. Okay, all right.

John Dehlin [00:32:53] Any thoughts about Nephi? Do you like Nephi? Do you remember. Do you remember him? Do you remember?

David Michael [00:32:57] I remember Nephi.

John Dehlin [00:32:58] Okay.

David Michael [00:32:59] He was.

John Dehlin [00:32:59] Is it Nephi?

David Michael [00:33:00] What is it Nephi?

John Dehlin [00:33:01] Nephi. Sorry.

David Michael [00:33:03] You know, it's funny. I've listened back to the first episode and I pronounce his name differently every time it comes up. Like, I was like, nephi, Nephi, Nephi. It just. I couldn't figure it out. But, yeah, Nephi as we know it is now. Yeah, he was. He just wh. He was just a whiner. I mean, there's just no way to say that. He whined about everything and to everyone. Like, even when it's like, God, my dad got to have a dream.

John Dehlin [00:33:28] I want one too.

David Michael [00:33:29] You know, it was just like, all the time. You know, his brother's like, why don't you have as much faith as me? Come on, guys. It was just non stop whining. And that was annoying about him. And then also, he didn't really seem to have any, like, will of his own. It was always just like, well, I don't want to chop this man's heads off. Chop his head off. Okay. It's just like, wow, you listen to voices in your head and kill people. That's great. So

John Dehlin [00:33:58] was that, was that. Was that scene surprising to kind of start off with that, with that drama of.

David Michael [00:34:04] Yeah, quite.

John Dehlin [00:34:05] What was that like for you?

David Michael [00:34:07] It was confusing because it said, like, God was telling him, well, isn't it better for one man to die than everyone? And I'm like, why would everyone die? That case has not been made. The man just has some plates. You want what's happening here? Yeah, so that was quite surprising. And then especially the way he killed him. It was just like he lopped his head off. I was like, well, no, he ain't getting up from that. Okay, yeah, that was. And then he puts his clothes on. Everyone's like, well, you're him, clearly. Even his brothers. Who are you? Your brother. Oh, he put a different shirt on. I had no idea. So, yeah, that was. That was Nephi.

John Dehlin [00:34:58] All right, all right.

David Michael [00:35:00] There's more to him. You know, he. He did build a ship and it did get across the ocean, so good on him. And he was the only one that could get the compass thing working. The magic brass ball and they're out at sea. I would call it a Liahona, but at this point in the story it wasn't called that. Even though everyone's emailed me. Wasn't that Liahone funny? I was like, what are they talking about?

John Dehlin [00:35:22] What's the Liahona? What the hell's the Liahona? What'd you think about his brother Sleeman and Lemuel? Any thoughts on them?

David Michael [00:35:28] So I related to him well, because I. They were, they were the skeptics in the book. Right. So their dad said I had a dream and we have to give up everything. And they were like, wait, what. What dream? I had a dream too, Dad. I don't, I don't know that I read into it that much. The thing that, that bothered me about him. Well one, I know their brother whined a lot. I don't know if they needed to try to kill him. That was a bit much. So they were a little homicide y. So that one hard to forgive that. But the other problem I had with them, if you're taking the book literally, is that they many times got direct evidence from God or an angel or something that like.

David Michael [00:36:06] No, no, this is legit follow along. I mean it happened at least three or four times. And that would get them on the straight and narrow, whatever you say, for like a month, maybe, maybe a week. And then they'd be right back to their stiff naked ways. And it's like, I just don't believe you as characters that if that happened to you that someone physically came down and did whatever. I mean that's, that's it. That happens to me. I'm. I'm probably in.

John Dehlin [00:36:29] You know.

David Michael [00:36:30] You got me. Okay.

Guest [00:36:33] Yeah.

David Michael [00:36:34] So that, that they just, they became less and less believable. Right. As characters. At first their, at least their motivations made perfect sense. Who wouldn't question someone that said they had a dream and they wanted changed the whole world because of it? I think most you should. If you wouldn't question that you should. But my opinion. But anyway, that was. They started out good and then just kind of crept into. I don't believe that people would really do that world.

John Dehlin [00:37:04] I'm curious if there are any kind of quote, good guys that you thought weren't so good and then any bad guys that you think were actually kind of cool.

David Michael [00:37:14] Okay, well, I know you're trying to get me to Talk about Moroni, maybe, Maybe possibly, who I always called General Moroni and then later found out that everyone else calls him Captain Moroni. So I'll go with Captain Moroni.

David Michael [00:37:27] Yeah. I didn't know that. He was, like, a hero. He was horrible. He was like. So first he was in charge of the army, and they had, like, those terrible judges. And then. But then he just kind of slowly took over the government. Like, he started referring to himself as the leader of the Nephites. And I'm like, when did that happen? It's like, oh, wait, you have the army and you just took it. Okay. And then when people started to, like, challenge his authority or even challenge the government in any way, he would just kill them by the thousands. I mean, this was not a good regime to live under.

David Michael [00:37:58] This was a horrible regime to live under. And he also didn't really seem to value human life very much. So again with. They were in battle, it was just like, wave after wave of soldiers to be killed. And it's like, yeah, it took some time to figure out, or we could just block the city and do it the way the battles have been done for thousands of years before now and lay siege. Anyway. So, yeah, I. I didn't. I don't like him at all. I don't even know.

David Michael [00:38:25] The only good thing that people seem to like about him was that he, like, put his laundry up on a pole. But I don't even. I did not get the significance of that at all. Like, and then he kept talking. He was the one guy that wouldn't shut up about liberty. And then he killed political dissenters left and right. Liberty. It's like, no, that's not. That's not what that word means.

John Dehlin [00:38:52] All right, so good guys, Sabah. Bad guys that were kind of cool.

David Michael [00:38:57] I don't know. Give me an example.

John Dehlin [00:38:59] Oh, Kori whore. The great Kori whore.

David Michael [00:39:02] The Antichrist. I don't know. He got lame at the end, didn't he? He started out so strong, and then it turns out he was like, oh, an angel told me to do it. So, yeah, he had a chance. He started out okay because at least he was questioning it. But it didn't pan out for him. I do think that there were the people that were vilified. Many of the people that were vilified were the ones that just were asking questions, right? They just were asking for some sort of evidence or even just like, can you back this up with something? And the thing that bothered me the most about the book was that some people asked for that and God was happy to give it to them.

David Michael [00:39:40] And some people asked and it was, how dare you? Now you're deaf, dumb, and getting trampled by oxen or whatever happened to them. And then some people didn't even ask and got it. So, like Alma Jr. Being the great case. Although you don't call him that, do you? Alma II or something.

David Michael [00:39:55] I'm the younger. Sorry. I'm always going to call him Alma Jr. So just live with it. So, yeah, he was out there just being pure evil and stiff naked. And he just got proof. Just, here you go. And then he went all around the world talking about faith. You have to have faith. It's like, well, Alma, you didn't.

David Michael [00:40:16] Anyway, so, yeah, I think anyone that questioned it in any way seemed to be vilified. And even if the character ended up being not so great, I at least respected their courage to ask the question because it cost many of them their lives.

Christ, Theology, and Damaging Messages

John Dehlin [00:40:32] So the book bears as sort of a subtitle, another Testament of Jesus Christ. You were raised in a Christian tradition. Did you learn anything about Christ that you didn't know? Did it add to your understanding anything cool about its message about Christ? What did you glean about Christ from the Book?

David Michael [00:40:55] If there was something new, I totally missed it. And I really tried. It sounded like Jesus. Second stop on a world tour. And it was the same concert, right? I mean, it's the same songs, the same set. I mean, some of it was verbatim. And there was a few things different. Like, I remember some things, like some of the Beatitudes were slightly different. The Lord's Prayer had something omitted, which I can't remember what. Which does anyone remember? It doesn't matter. But something was different. And I. And I thought, well, I mean, if we're taking this literally, maybe it just didn't work out on the first crowd, you know, you're good.

David Michael [00:41:28] He's up there, he's doing his set, and he's like, oh, people are nodding at this one. And everyone kind of looked confused on that one. Okay, I'll drop that one on the second stop, right? So he amended the act and saw. But the doctrine didn't seem to change at all. It just seemed to be that I'm the son of God, you're all useless, worthless ants, and I died for you. You better be happy and believe in me and say thank you all the time. So it was pretty much the same message. I thought so. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe there was a big doctrinal difference between his second stop on his world tour in the first. But I didn't. I didn't pick up on it.

John Dehlin [00:42:03] Okay, so as far as the God that comes across in the Book of Mormon.

David Michael [00:42:13] Yeah, that guy. Hey,

John Dehlin [00:42:16] thank you very much. All right. How was the Book of Mormon? God? Drink. You're welcome.

David Michael [00:42:28] Well, he seemed to be mainly motivated more than anything for having his ego stroked. Like, that just seemed to be his main mission, even for creating. Well, I guess I'm cheating a little because that came up in pearl gray price. But anyway, just. Even the creation of man seemed to be so that someone could praise him and tell him how awesome he was. It just felt like, man, I'm so awesome. But no one ever tells me I'm awesome. And so it sucks. And I want people to tell me I'm awesome all the time and I want to do stuff for them and if they don't thank me well enough, I'm going to take it away and I'm probably going to bitch slap them.

David Michael [00:43:06] Like, that's just what I'm going to do. So, yeah, that seemed to be his. At least his, like, consistent theme. Right. That's what drove him. And so. But what that drove him to was sometimes pretty horrific. So obviously when his son died, he had a bit of a temper tantrum in America.

David Michael [00:43:28] Yeah. Killed I don't even know how many, Leveled half the cities for whatever reason. We don't know. And then talk from the sky, brag about it, so. That's right, I killed you. That was me. If you're wondering if that was a natural disaster. No, I did that.

David Michael [00:43:45] Yeah. So, yeah, I just didn't. It was. He was. And then of course, his way of punishing people, the one of like, changing your skin color. That'll teach you. Wow, dude, what is up with.

John Dehlin [00:44:03] Yeah. So how did you take that. That whole dark skin cursing thing? You've talked about it. I've heard this episode. But yeah, just give us a refresher on your overall musings about race in the Book of Mormon.

David Michael [00:44:22] So I'll admit, I will happily admit that it did start to numb me a little. Like towards the end when I would hear it, I'd be like, oh, racist shit again.

John Dehlin [00:44:31] Okay.

David Michael [00:44:31] Oh, sorry.

John Dehlin [00:44:32] But what's it like to read that for the first time in 2014?

David Michael [00:44:36] It was. I felt squeamish, actually. It was. The way it's worded is just so bad because it's not just like, okay, he turned his skin dark. You're like, well, that's horrible. And it's like, but he did it so they'd be ugly. You're like, okay, worse. Way worse.

David Michael [00:44:53] And it's like, no, no, no, no. They had to be ugly so the good white people wouldn't sleep with him. You're like, not better. And it's like. Because if they did sleep with him, well, then they'd be cursed too. You're like, okay, I'm just. I'm done. This is too far.

David Michael [00:45:08] So, yeah, it. I. It. It paused me. Like, I. I had to stop for a second and just say, did I really just read that? You know, was that some sort of euphemism or did I really read what that said? But it was pretty clear that was. That one was not left up open for interpretation. So, I mean, just the amount of pain that just that alone could cause in the world, if everyone thought that, you know, white and delightsome means God likes you more and you're more blessed and you deserve more, it's just. Yeah, I didn't like that at all. I just didn't.

John Dehlin [00:45:45] It was symbolic. It was metaphorical, by the way.

David Michael [00:45:56] Oh, was it? Yeah. You know, you could probably make that case a lot of times when it's talking about the whole white delights and stuff, but that one verse where it said, and then God turned their skin black as a cur, you're like, okay, that's. Yeah. Can't hide that. That ain't a metaphor.

John Dehlin [00:46:15] Do you feel like from reading the Book of Mormon you got a clear sense drink of Mormon theology? I'm gonna have to excuse myself.

David Michael [00:46:29] So I'm still a. An amateur in the. Just understanding Mormon theology, But I think that. But by.

John Dehlin [00:46:37] But by reading it, are you like, oh, okay, now I know what Mormons believe.

David Michael [00:46:42] Good God, it's a dangerous game. This is how you drink eight beers in an hour. So the short answer is no, not at all. Like, just for example, there wasn't anything in the book about masturbation, and Mormons seem to be obsessed with masturbation for some reason. Every other story I hear, I had to tell my bishop I was whacking off again. I was like, why do you talk about that? No one else talks about this. We just close the door, do our thing. Sorry, I had to think of an example on the spot. That's the one that came to mind.

John Dehlin [00:47:30] I know it's hard. It's hard.

David Michael [00:47:32] So, no, not just. Not at all. I actually thought that. We'll give you a minute. It's gonna be okay. That one was a hit. All right, so now, heads out of the gutter. Yeah. I don't know. It just. To me, it just didn't seem like it changed the doctrine of Christianity at all. I mean, it made a case that there was the current, I guess, church was wrong and there was a need for a new church, but it didn't really describe what that new church should be or how you should behave differently. If anything, it kind of sounded to me like kind of a theocratic, communal type thing.

David Michael [00:48:18] So kind of like a Soviet Union. If instead of being like an atheist, government was like a theocratic government. But. But no one really had property. They all shared it. And that kind of thing, that. That to me would seem like what the church should. Should have been like. I mean, and again, I would have been guessing because it wasn't that clear. It was just.

David Michael [00:48:38] That seemed to fit the theme of the book the most in terms of if I had to guess, what would a Mormon church. I knew, I knew it was coming. What would it look like and how would it be practiced? That would have been my guess.

John Dehlin [00:48:57] Yeah, makes sense. So I don't know if, you know, I had a listener, actually. Jay Nelson Seawright submitted this question. I'm not even sure to what extent you have thought about the context of this question, but he wanted to know whether you feel like the Book of Mormon advanced sort of the notion of a trinitarian God versus some other type of God, or if you. Even if you need me to kind of explain that more.

David Michael [00:49:27] No, I know what you mean.

Guest [00:49:29] Yeah.

David Michael [00:49:29] Because I've heard people talk about God's head or something, but. But no, the right. Did I say that wrong? Is it. No, that's not okay to answer your question. No, it seemed to fit the theme of the New Testament, that it was like three beings but one, and we don't really know what it means. We didn't explain it well then. Then and now we're not going to explain it well here either. So that's. Yeah, it seemed rather trinitarianism, or however you pronounce that. Yeah. Yes would be my answer.

John Dehlin [00:50:10] All right, Jason, the answer is yes.

David Michael [00:50:14] God said comes later.

John Dehlin [00:50:21] What do I say to that?

David Michael [00:50:23] Am I saying it wrong? Isn't it? Yeah, just for fun.

John Dehlin [00:50:32] Okay. All right. So did you learn anything positive from the book? I mean, there really are millions of people who feel. I know. This is the hard question, isn't it? This is the tough one. There are millions of people in the world who derive significant daily inspiration from the book. They view this as the most sacred thing in their lives. And More sacred probably than the Bible for many of them. And was there ever a moment where you kind of felt inspired or uplifted or touched or anything?

David Michael [00:51:10] Okay, so those are different questions. First, was there anything good out of it? The second part, was I ever inspired or touched or. No, just.

John Dehlin [00:51:18] No.

David Michael [00:51:19] I felt no burning in any part of my. Especially not bosom. Although some of those scenes might add some burnings. Otherware someone got exciting anyway, Amadin. What was his name again? Yeah, that was some hot stuff. Anyway, so. No, but in terms of the good stuff, I just, I think that. That it's the same kind of good feeling that people get from any religion, I think. And again, I've never been a Mormon, But from what I've seen from people that practice different religions, it is the same kind of comfort in believing that there's some order, someone in charge. Right. Like people just. I would. I would rather follow a leader than just have to be out on my own, so to speak.

David Michael [00:52:21] And that just gives people comfort and peace. That and especially not having to worry, like believing that when I die, that's not the end of the world, we're just going to somewhere better. I mean, it's a comfort for a lot of people. So I don't know that that's unique to Mormonism. I think that that's shared amongst almost every religious belief in the world. So in that sense, if that's what you're getting out of it, well, then this book's got plenty of that for you. But.

John Dehlin [00:52:45] But you were kind of turned off to that ideology from the start, so that wouldn't have resonated.

David Michael [00:52:50] Well, it didn't.

John Dehlin [00:52:50] It just.

David Michael [00:52:50] It's not turned off. It's just. It didn't make a compelling case any better than any other religion ever did. So in my mind it's kind of a. I'll give any religion a chance if make a compelling enough argument and I'll take you seriously. And it didn't any better than any others have, at least for me. I'm sure it has for others. Well, it does. Some people get converted for whatever reason. I don't know that one, but anyway, so I was personally never uplifted or touched by it or anything like that. I understand why. I mean, there's certainly parts in there where you could cherry pick some good verses that like God's got your back and if you follow this or if you just listen.

David Michael [00:53:33] But it did kind of paint the picture that if you give up your self esteem, self worth, self will, everything's going to be awesome for you, and I just don't want to live that way. So. Sorry. That's how I answered your question of was it positive?

John Dehlin [00:54:00] No, it's all right. I mean, next I was going to ask you kind of what you felt some of the more damaging messages were. And you've shared some of that.

David Michael [00:54:07] Yeah. Yeah, I did. So the one of them, which I know I mentioned quite a few times was this idea that you'll get good things if you believe or have enough faith, because that's just not how the world works. And there's people that just are dealt a bad hand when they're born. I mean, it happens all over the world. People that do the best they can just to scrape by and a tornado comes and kills them. Yeah, I mean, it's just bad things happen.

Guest [00:54:37] Right.

David Michael [00:54:37] And so this. This idea of something bad happened to you. You must have upset God somehow. Somehow it was your fault. You did something wrong. That, to me, is just. Just incredibly damaging on someone's psyche. And then the flip side is when you convince people that if you have a lot of good stuff, it means you're really doing the right thing. God really likes you. Keep doing that. And that's actually. And this is even pre Mormon, But even when Europe colonized the entire planet, they thought they were justified because they were saying, well, we wouldn't be winning if God didn't want us to do this.

David Michael [00:55:23] This is all good. This is great. Yeah, they don't like it. Yeah, we have to kill them. Okay. But you know God's plan. So that idea of good things happen to those who deserve it because they were faithful enough, and bad things happen to those who weren't faithful enough. I just think that's horrible, and it's a terrible way to think about the world. And then the other. Oh, Now that we have a drinking game, Doug's keeping me stocked.

David Michael [00:55:55] He knows that everyone likes me more drunk. Yeah, he had. He picked me up at the airport this morning, so he had to deal with me sober. He's like, good God, give him some beer. But the other. The other thing that we haven't really talked about yet was the misogyny in the book, which was an interesting type of misogyny in that it just ignored women. Like they just weren't there. It was just like you had an entire story about an entire population of people. Huge, millions of people. And I think. I know you can count on one hand how many women were mentioned. I think it was four, one of which was A.

David Michael [00:56:35] And the other Was, you know, I mean, these were not even. Even the first one. Le. The one of the only ones. Sariah. Yeah. One of the only ones that had a name. Her job was to doubt her husband all the time and be proven wrong. It was like, well, that's great. You're a great character. So just the.

David Michael [00:56:53] That I thought was upsetting. Like, there's no way that even if all the women were doing were making babies and keeping the houses in order, that's still a part of the story, and it's still an important role that was played, but they were just ignored, like they didn't exist. And that. That I thought was.

David Michael [00:57:16] For those that didn't hear that in the audience, we heard they still are. So want to make sure that made it to the show. Drink? Yeah. I just don't believe in telling anyone that they have limits. Let them set them for themselves. So whether. Whatever color your skin is, whatever you got between your legs, whatever your orientation, I don't care. You set your own limits for what you can accomplish in your life.

John Dehlin [00:57:51] All right. Any other. Any other themes you think are particularly damaging or is that. No, that's all right. Is that the main ones? All right. If you think of others, you can. You can join.

David Michael [00:58:03] I might. Well, being in an enclosed submarine for a year with animals. That sounds damaging. Sounds incredibly damaging. If you're in it.

John Dehlin [00:58:20] You didn't buy that part.

David Michael [00:58:24] All right, what's next?

John Dehlin [00:58:27] So someone wanted to know if you lived your life according to the teachings of the Book of Mormon, if you'd be a drink, if you'd be a healthy, happy, you know, productive person.

David Michael [00:58:41] I think I made a decent case for why the answer would be no. You guys agree?

John Dehlin [00:58:46] Yeah, point made.

David Michael [00:58:47] Okay. I mean, now. No. Just.

Guest [00:58:51] No.

David Michael [00:58:52] I was trying to defend to the other side. I can't. I can't. No. Just. No.

John Dehlin [00:58:59] But. But I mean, I think as Mormons, we. We would say, but Mormons are great people. Right? Like, I think we think we're pretty awesome. Right. So how do you explain all of our awesomeness, our collective awesomeness, if we've been reading the Book of Mormon our whole lives?

David Michael [00:59:22] I think you're. I think you're pretty awesome within your group. And that's not unique to Mormonism, right? Really? Mormonism, even any variation. It shall come to pass. Didn't count people. I'm just saying. All right, so, I mean, within the. In group, I think it is, but then you also hear these stories about parents disowning or shaming their children for life choices. They make. And I mean you just people being. Someone wrote me that said they got in a debilitating car accident. I think they were on a bicycle and got hurt and they were in like we really messed up by it. And everyone around them were just trying to help them figure out what they'd done wrong to displease God. Like you really screwed up.

John Dehlin [01:00:09] How.

David Michael [01:00:09] How did you. And that when you say they're awesome, that doesn't sound very awesome. So I think that it's. If you're following the rules, if you're doing again giving up your what did I say before Everyone liked it. Self worth, self esteem and self will I think then yeah, we're going to be great to you. We, we're all just going to be happy. And I mean I think it's, it's. You can see that almost anywhere when you see fans of a sports team when they're together and their team's playing and winning, they're great and everyone's just so happy and wonderful. But yeah, watch when their team's losing or when one person decides that they come in the room and they're rooting for the other team. Not as nice. So I don't know. I just don't know if I would agree with your awesome claim based on the stories that I've heard.

John Dehlin [01:00:55] That's pretty gutsy to come into Salt Lake City and tell us that we're not as awesome as we think we are. What do you guys think?

David Michael [01:01:03] But you do have a sphinx self

John Dehlin [01:01:05] loathing out there, everybody.

David Michael [01:01:07] You do have a sphinx with Joseph Smith's face on it. I have never seen that before. That's all.

John Dehlin [01:01:14] That's pretty awesome, right? It is.

David Michael [01:01:15] That was awesome.

John Dehlin [01:01:16] It was awesome. There's a picture of him picking the sphinx's nose by the way.

David Michael [01:01:21] We had something up his nostril and he has no hands. I had to help him out.

Taking Moroni's Promise Seriously

John Dehlin [01:01:26] So I did tune into your episode for Moroni 10 where you, where you actually take Moroni's promise on head on and can you retell that special moment for you how that went?

David Michael [01:01:45] Well for those that listen to it, you'll know that I'm not particularly good at praying. I don't quite understand it. Even when I started I was following the instructions. I got instructions from people you're supposed to start out by the ego stroking always got to start there. Thank God, tell him how awesome he is. And I just didn't even know how to do that. Right. Because I was starting out by saying thanks that I have Stuff I'm like, oh, but wait, other people don't have stuff that kind of feels crappy to say. And it's like, well, thanks for my family. It's like, well, the people lose their family.

David Michael [01:02:15] Like, that's mean. It just. It just. It. I. I don't know how to do that well. So I did my best there. And then the one thing that I think I did differently, and I think I got challenged by a lot of. I'm gonna say TBM so I don't have to drink again.

David Michael [01:02:32] Told you. Conversational Mormonese. I'm getting there. Anyway. Oh, bot. Now I lost my train of thought. Oh, praying. Yeah, we were praying. I knew that much. You didn't.

John Dehlin [01:02:51] You weren't praying. Right. Someone corrected you on how you were praying?

David Michael [01:02:53] Well, I think it was because I just didn't feel like if I got a little heartburn, that would cut it. Right. Like, the, the claims. The claims that were being made were fantastic. It's kind of like if someone comes up and says, if you chop your leg off, you're immune to cancer and AIDS forever. Here's a chainsaw. It's like, well, now, hold on.

David Michael [01:03:18] You better really prove this to me. So it was just. It was really, really fantastic claims being made. And so to me, I kind of let God know, you've got a. You got a big bar you got to reach here, like, knock me out of this chair.

David Michael [01:03:34] Because just. Yeah, if I just kind of feel good inside. Well, I felt good inside from getting a nice gift, you know? I mean, but you're God. You can outdo my friend that gave me, bought me a beer when I didn't expect it, you know what I mean? Like, you can do better than that. So I did. I kind of challenged God a little, but I was honest with him. I told him what it would take, and had he been able to do that, I'm. Hey. And I freaked some people out because I guess I paused too long and a lot of people were kind of like, wait, no way.

David Michael [01:04:11] No, no. But I. But I left the ball in his court. I told him he has my contact info, he can call back whenever. And so nothing yet.

John Dehlin [01:04:25] So were you sincere?

David Michael [01:04:29] I was sincere that if he could show me that it was true, I would listen, watch whatever, feel it. But again, it's just. I wasn't going to buy just something that could be explained, like, oh, I felt something. Well, okay, it might have been digestion. I could have been anything.

Guest [01:04:48] Right?

David Michael [01:04:49] So it's like, you need to really. And by the Way I didn't even have that. Didn't have to explain away heartburn. But yeah, I mean, I would have. Sure I would. Now if right now the roof got ripped off and maroon, I floated down and said, you two, stop it. I'd be like, okay, done. Dropping the mic. Sorry. And by the way, you look fantastic with your robe open. Lovely bosom. That's what the book says. Don't give me that look.

John Dehlin [01:05:27] So how do you explain. How do you explain that millions of Mormons have read that book and feel like they have obtained that witness and feel like that's. That's evidence to them that it is true and that it's from God?

David Michael [01:05:46] Well, there's so much pressure to believe it, right?

John Dehlin [01:05:49] I mean, when you're.

David Michael [01:05:50] Especially if you're young. I mean, I remember being a kid and getting baptized. I have no idea how old I was. I probably was. What are you, 8? That sounds about right. And I remember it being. It was a mountain retreat, so this was like cold. Lake water, pond water is freezing. And I remember going in and it was really cold and I dunked down and when I came out, I saw like my parents and they were just so overjoyed. And I just remember thinking, the water doesn't feel cold anymore, you know, because you're just like filled with this. Like, everyone's so excited right now and they're just like, wow. And it's like, I guess I'm excited too.

Guest [01:06:27] Woohoo.

David Michael [01:06:27] You know, and. And so it's like you can easily explain it, but I think when you, when you have so much pressure that you have to. I've actually heard people say, actually you said earlier, no, it wasn't you. There you are. Someone said, I didn't feel anything. And so I explained that away by saying, well, I must have always known it was true. There you go. So whether you feel something or don't feel anything, you can still get to that same conclusion. So, yeah, it just. It seems like a terrible litmus test to determine truth. Actually one of the dumbest ones I've ever heard. Really. There's.

John Dehlin [01:07:04] What would you say to someone who said, well, actually, that means a lot to me.

David Michael [01:07:08] I would say that I'm not attacking you. So even for the record, I actually don't know if you're a Mormon or not, which, I know we have to drink now, but this is kind of serious me. Well, I know the church doesn't think you are, but I don't know if you do. But quite frankly, I don't care. Because I've seen what you do and I've seen the work you do. And I'm like, that's a good person. I don't need to know what you believe. And I would never attack what you believe. But I will attack an idea or I will attack something that someone says is true.

David Michael [01:07:36] And I will say, well, let's see if it is. People do that all the time. If someone says, here, take this pill. Well, what is it? Well, to make sure you don't get aids. How do you know that? Like, you'll ask questions. How do you know it's not poison? Does it have side effects? Has anyone else tried this? I mean, it's just normal for us to do. Do that. But for some reason we get into this topic of religion, suddenly it's like, well, you can't. You can't do that. You might offend someone. It's like, what? I just. You're saying something's true. I'm just looking into it, that's all.

David Michael [01:08:04] So I don't. I know that some people look at it and feel like it's an attack on them as a person. And I've really tried to never say, wow, you must be dumb if you think this is true, or you must be an idiot if you believe this. I think it's more that this idea, I think, is not grounded in truth and I think is ridiculous as an idea. The fact that you believe it doesn't make you ridiculous. It just means that for whatever reason you got to that conclusion. So I think there is a distinction between attacking a person and an idea. And I think ideas should be fair game.

John Dehlin [01:08:46] So. So what about the argument that religion means a lot to people and that it helps give them a sense of purpose, a sense of identity, a moral code that they can live by? And there's so many positive, awesome things that religion brings people. Plus it's special and sacred to them, like, leave it alone and just let them enjoy their stuff. You go about your life and let them enjoy theirs and kind of don't pick apart or mock their beliefs. Just live and let live.

Connecting with the Mormon Transition Community

David Michael [01:09:21] Good. Good question. I'd say that one is that I actually didn't go into this even knowing this community existed. I actually thought my listening audience would be like atheists that wanted to laugh. Like, I really thought that's who was going to listen to my show. And so then all of a sudden we had like all of these ex Mormons and even believing Mormons and Jack Mormons and every other. Which that's a Lot of drinks. I know that's like a chug moment. Why wasn't I saying mo? What's wrong with me? Anyway?

David Michael [01:09:53] So I all jumped on board. So then it was suddenly like, oh, it does kind of take a different feel, like a whole different idea. And so then I can understand why people would think, like, well, now you're kind of, like you said, mocking. Right.

David Michael [01:10:07] So in one hand, I would say that especially when you went with the people use it to live morally. That I would challenge. Like, I would want to have a conversation about morality. I don't care where it comes from. What do you think is moral and what isn't.

John Dehlin [01:10:22] Yeah. So, like, I'm not gonna lie. I'm not gonna cheat on my wife. I'm not gonna steal. I'm gonna try and be a good dad, a good wife. I'm going to try and just serve others and be kind. Certainly there are questionable or dangerous messages in religion, but I think most people, in their practical application of religion generally tend to coalesce around a set of universal values that are generally favorable to mankind, some would argue. And so I'm saying, if that's the practical outcome, let's not take suicide bombers, you know, in this case into account, or jihadists or.

David Michael [01:11:02] I think there's. I just think that there are many examples. And I would actually like to think that I'm included in this number of someone that's found morality and helping others and, and wanting to do more for the. To help other people and everything you just said, being faithful, being a good father. And I don't need a book to tell me that.

Guest [01:11:24] So.

David Michael [01:11:27] And I understand. So I don't want. I don't want that to mean that, like, if someone else needs that, that they're somehow inferior. Right. I don't think that. I mean, I would much rather live in a world where everyone is trying to help each other and I don't really care why you're doing it, just help each other and all that. But I think that when there's a religious. When your morality comes from religion, then your morality is limited.

David Michael [01:11:51] You. You will help other people until a certain point. And then it's like, oh, well, we disagree here. So I'm not going to help you. I'm actually going to try and stop you or hurt you because of this thing. And that's where I think you're better off to find your own morality than to find it in a book. Because anything you find in a religious text is going to have limits. And they're Usually harmful.

David Michael [01:12:16] So I don't know. Hey, we could. We could talk about morality for hours. It actually sounds fun and we want to hang out and drink and talk about morality. Sounds fun.

John Dehlin [01:12:24] Okay. All right.

David Michael [01:12:32] And you always say it. Never tells me what that means. All right. So for the recording, we had Kyle in the crowd ask several times throughout the book. It said things like live righteously or don't be evil and things like that, but never really described what it meant. Like, what does evil look like? Because we can have very different definitions. I could think that stopping two people that love each other from being married and living their lives together is evil. It's evil to get in the way of that. It's none of your business. What are you doing? But. So if you're not going to define it, then yeah, to your point, I don't even know what morality there was in the book. Didn't explain it.

John Dehlin [01:13:18] And that is a perplexing thing that some of the things that we tend to emphasize most like masturbation, extramarital sex, same sex marriage or same sex sexuality,

David Michael [01:13:30] basically anything to do with your naughty bits is not.

John Dehlin [01:13:33] But it's not. It's actually not talked about in the Book of Mormon. Right. Did you.

David Michael [01:13:38] There was. Polygamy was outlawed.

John Dehlin [01:13:40] That's true.

David Michael [01:13:43] Twice, if I recall. And the other one, did you find that odd?

John Dehlin [01:13:48] Was that a little confusing?

David Michael [01:13:49] Shocking.

John Dehlin [01:13:50] Yeah.

David Michael [01:13:51] I was like the only religion I'm aware of that ever practiced. This is the only one I'm aware of.

John Dehlin [01:13:56] Islam practices it too, actually.

David Michael [01:13:58] Oh, you're right. My bad. It's okay. Sorry, Sorry. Wow.

John Dehlin [01:14:02] You.

David Michael [01:14:03] You. Islam got a lot in common these days.

John Dehlin [01:14:05] All right.

David Michael [01:14:07] That and. And just like whatever you do, under penalty of just the worst death possible, don't ever baptize a baby. That was. That was clear. Got that message. Don't know why that was so important, but man, that was hammered home at the end. I actually don't think there was another commandment in the Book of Mormon, more just strenuously hammered home. And it wasn't until the very end. But yeah, they were. He was really. Was it Mormon? Oh, God. No, it wasn't. That was either, wasn't it? Wasn't it neither. It was.

John Dehlin [01:14:46] It's been a while. It's been a while for me.

David Michael [01:14:48] He was so mad about it. He's like, oh, whatever you do, never baptize a baby.

John Dehlin [01:14:52] I'll kill you.

David Michael [01:14:53] He was so mad. He's fired up about it. Didn't get it.

John Dehlin [01:14:59] Okay, so whenever a post Mormon or a skeptical Mormon or a questioning Mormon or a non Mormon questions. It's like six chug, go crazy chug. Whenever a skeptic questions the book's historicity, you know, the fact that it's really what it claims to be, there's a really consistent answer that, you know, believers offer, which is, this book is so incredibly amazing. It's so inspirational, it's so intricate, it's so complex, it's so original that no one could have authored this by themselves, especially not within kind of a constricted time period, which to some could mean as little as 60 to 90 days, and others are going to say a few months or even a few years. But the basic answer is too awesome of a book for someone to author that isn't God. Basically. What would your. Is that. Is that how you experienced the book?

David Michael [01:16:12] I didn't think it was that awesome. So no. And large chunks of it were just copy and paste. So that's an easy part. And then. And again, I tried to read the book without the, I guess, history outside, you know, forgetting all that. And yeah, I would hear things and I would. People would let me know. And I did start listening to reading up on some certain things, but I tried to stay out of that. I tried to read the book, like forget about the fact that Joseph Smith is translating this or any of that. Just, just read it for what it is, right? So just assume this is true.

David Michael [01:16:49] What does it have to say? So I never really focused that much on it. So even all the anachronisms and all that, I didn't focus on them that much. And people get mad when I miss them. Dude, there were horses. How did you miss that? I'm like, whatever, sorry.

David Michael [01:17:03] Anyway, it was a fun story. He was chopping arms off. Who cares about the horses? Anyway, it was that same episode anyway, so I didn't focus that much on it. But just. But so just reading the book as it was didn't seem that hard to write. I didn't think, especially when you throw in so many. It came to pass, That's a lot of filler. And then you copy and paste a lot of it. And now you know, now I know that there's very possible that even bigger sections of it were copied from other things. But even if that wasn't the case, I don't understand why people think there would be a time limit.

David Michael [01:17:43] Why wouldn't anyone. If you're just going to write a book and it be bs, why wouldn't you start at any point and say, I started in April But I actually started 10 years ago. Like, there's just no way to know one way or the other. So I don't, I just. That argument just seems ludicrous. I don't know. Just does.

John Dehlin [01:18:02] But to you, does it, to you, does it seem like an amazingly complex masterpiece of a work? And if not, how do you explain the discrepancy between that and all the people who do?

David Michael [01:18:18] Because they were told it was right. And, And also there's parts of it that are just damn confusing and they don't make any sense. And it's like, oh, this is too complex for us. It's like, no, it's just poorly written. Like, I didn't realize. I, I, I think there was like three different groups of people that came over from Jerusalem, not just two. And I missed one somewhere. I can't even notice that.

John Dehlin [01:18:53] The Mulekites, Is that the other one? Yeah.

David Michael [01:18:55] And then there was some guys, I think he was working on a sequel because there's a bunch of people that got on boats, took off. That was it. They were just gone. What happened to him? Like, you know, there was a sequel waiting there. That was the setup. What were those? Who was that? Anybody?

John Dehlin [01:19:13] Hagoth.

Guest [01:19:14] Yeah.

David Michael [01:19:15] You know, there was a Hagar book of Hagar coming up, but he ran out of time. That have been a fun book. Where would he have gone? Hawaii? We don't know

John Dehlin [01:19:27] any. So you didn't. You know, someone asked if there are any major blunders in the book that sort of to you were very clear signals that it was, was fictional and not historical? Are you just saying you kind of weren't paying attention to that or were there?

David Michael [01:19:42] I tried not to. To be honest, I wasn't trying to debunk it. Right. And so that's.

Historical Problems and Describing the Book

John Dehlin [01:19:48] How about looking back, any big blunders that kind of are potential signals that it wasn't authentic?

David Michael [01:19:55] Well, there's the complete lack of evidence would be one, the lack of DNA evidence, the lack of any archaeological evidence. My God, they were mining ores. I mean, that requires digging into mountains, which we have never found any evidence of mountains being dug into. It's just, yeah, we can find civilizations in Europe and the Middle east from tens of thousands of years ago that we didn't even know existed. We are still uncovering stuff. And look at this from forever ago, but somehow in America just kind of got. Jesus, just a big old broom sweep across the whole thing. And yeah, I don't know. So that, that, that helps with the. What was the question? Is it does it, it's amazingness. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:20:48] Any blunders?

David Michael [01:20:50] The blunders, yes. The complete lack of evidence for any of it.

John Dehlin [01:20:53] That's a problem.

Guest [01:20:53] Yeah.

David Michael [01:20:54] Because at the time it was written or translated, I don't think, I don't think you would have known. Right. Like DNA wasn't a thing, then you could get away with it. Then there was no way to know. People weren't doing the amount of archaeological digs. And not only that, there's no other historical record of that magnitude. Talking about an entire civilization over a thousand years with only one source, it just doesn't exist anywhere else in the world. Like even there's some histories that we're skeptical about. We're not even sure if they're true because we only have three or four.

David Michael [01:21:31] Right. And just to have one that, by the way, not only don't we have that one, we don't even have the abridged version of it, and we don't even have the abridged version that was translated. It's like, my God, we have nothing.

David Michael [01:21:46] So, yeah, there's. To me, there's. I can't imagine anyone making a good argument for it as a credible historical document. That's just, there's. There's no foundation to stand on, in my opinion. I don't know, maybe somebody does. I'm sure there's apologists that try and it would probably be funny to listen.

John Dehlin [01:22:07] That's a different podcast.

David Michael [01:22:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:22:11] Okay, so someone asked you to describe the Book of Mormon in one word. If you had one word to describe it, is there a word you could come up with?

David Michael [01:22:20] Well, how about I let all of you answer that? It came to pass. There's my word. No, I don't know, I guess you would say incredible and not in a way that like, amazing, like not credible incredible. It doesn't mean it's not true. It just means it's not credible. It has nothing to back it up. That'd be a good word for it.

Impact of the Podcast and Listener Pain

John Dehlin [01:22:51] So did you ever imagine you'd become an ex Mormon rock star where 200 plus people would show up in Salt Lake City to praise your very name and like, that's why they're likeliness.

David Michael [01:23:05] Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, this was, this was a complete surprise. Like I said, I. I didn't even know this community existed. And when I first found out about it, I was like, oh, okay, some people that used to be religious, now they're not cool. And then the more I learned, it was like, this is different.

David Michael [01:23:30] This is very different. And I actually Think it was. One of the first podcasts I was on was when I realized that it was a. There was a different language. I don't know, because they started talking, and I was like, I don't know what you guys are saying at all.

David Michael [01:23:44] Something about a ward stake and a bishop. What are you talking about? What's happening right now? Anyway, so that. That was a surprise. And the. Once I got. Just said, okay, this is a thing. This is a group of people. They seem to like me. All right, what do you guys want? I think it did help shape the show, but then I think what was most amazing about it was the willingness of this community to want to help everyone. Just the.

David Michael [01:24:12] I know what pain feels like, and I don't want anyone else to have to feel that. And that, to me, has been the most inspirational. Kept me going more than anything else was the amount of empathy and willingness to help that I've seen from this community more than I've seen anywhere else in the world. And I've traveled a lot. And you guys seriously are the. You're inspirational in my mind. So thank you.

John Dehlin [01:24:44] See, we are pretty awesome, aren't we?

David Michael [01:24:46] All right, you got me. He's a sneaky one.

John Dehlin [01:24:57] So. And I guess talk a bit about the pain you've tapped into, and if you want to share some stories or just kind of. You know how that's impressed you.

David Michael [01:25:10] Yes. Probably the biggest shock, more so than just learning about this culture I didn't know that existed, was the amount of people that said that, what I was doing, and the word therapy. I've gotten that word sent to me so many times, and it was the first time I got it. I thought it was so humbling, but also shocking. I was almost like, okay, that's just too much pressure. I'm not qualified for that. What are you talking about? I'm just like a guy making dick jokes on a podcast. Come on. And so it was a little bit. I don't know, maybe even intimidating at first, but starting to understand that the level of indoctrination that so many people have gone through, that even after they leave the church, it's this feeling of guilt that I didn't have enough faith.

David Michael [01:25:59] So it's my fault. I somehow did something wrong. I'm the reason that my family doesn't talk to me or whatever it is, and somehow listening to me, or even some people said that I'm totally out, but, man, I just can't figure out how that book could have been written by a man. It was just yeah, that was awesome. And then they would. Then when they heard me read it, they're like, oh, okay, not me. No more guilt. So. And again, I'm not trying to take credit for that necessarily, because it was an accident.

John Dehlin [01:26:32] Right?

David Michael [01:26:33] It was. I wasn't intending to do that. It was a great byproduct that I was able to help a lot of people throw away their guilt from the. Whatever it was that they were holding on to. But I did feel like, because even if it was an accident, I'm in it. And so I wanted to do more than just that. And so that's when actually Taylor inspired me to do something more. And I decided that, well, what happened was actually I'll back up a little show. Got way more popular than I thought. And the weird thing about podcasting is the more popular you get, the more it costs.

John Dehlin [01:27:08] Weird.

David Michael [01:27:10] Until you reach a point where you can actually like have sponsors or something. I'm nowhere near that. But anyway, so I actually had to start asking. I was like, just don't need a ton. But I think it was like 20 episodes in like this thing took off. My God, this costs more than I thought it would. So could you help out a little? And I got way more help than I needed. And I thought, okay, this was always supposed to be a hobby. I'm not trying to make money off this. It's not my full time job. Right.

David Michael [01:27:35] And so I wanted something to do with it. So that's when I decided to start that scholarship to try and help people. And then the other thing that I did was that like you said, a lot of people, what you did, I took the lazy way out, people reached out to you, and you said, I should learn how to be a therapist. What I did was say, well, hold on, there's lots of people that are out already and other people that are struggling. What if I just pair them up? And so we created this network of people and. And actually there's some pairs here tonight.

David Michael [01:28:03] I don't know if they're willing to raise their hands or not, but I know that's true. They're not, but it's okay. Okay. But there are. Yeah. So people that were struggling pair them up with other people that I knew had, had come out and just asked people, hey, if you're willing to talk to stranger and help them, let me know. And boom. Influx of people saying that they're willing to do that. So.

David Michael [01:28:23] So yeah, it's. That's been to me again, just this community being willing to help each other has Been pretty inspiring and amazing. And, yeah, I really don't take credit for a lot of what I did, I think, because again, I wasn't trying to, but once I realized that's what it was, I don't know. I did my best, best I could to capitalize on that and help as many people as I could. So hopefully we together did. Did that as best, as much as we could. I'll say that.

John Dehlin [01:28:54] Let's thank David and all the people who have supported. Excellent. Okay, so. So what's next? Did you finish the Book of Mormon? What do you got going next?

David Michael [01:29:08] Well, we're reading the Pricey Pearl now.

John Dehlin [01:29:12] Pricey Pearl. That's Pearly Gray Price Pearl of.

David Michael [01:29:14] Great. It just takes too long to say, so I shortened it. Sorry. Pricey Pearl. And then. So after that, which I hope it gets better, this Book of Moses. I've been told the Book of Abraham's gonna get wacky, so I'm excited.

David Michael [01:29:33] I feel like I'm being hazed in the Book of Moses because I'm so bold. Boring. But we'll get there. Trying to make the most of it. And then after that, I'm actually teaming up with Bryce Blankenagel from the Naked Mormonism Podcast, who's become a bit of an expert on the. The history of where this all came from. And we're going to do the doctrines and covenants together. So we'll still get the. The knee jerk reaction of me reading something saying, wow, that's wacky. And then he can actually explain where it came from, how that came to be, because otherwise it would just be me reading bullet statements, and I just couldn't find a way to make that fun.

David Michael [01:30:07] So hopefully that. That works. We did an episode together. Bryce wanted to be here, but he's in Maui, so we can't really feel that bad for him. Aw, poor boy. Poor Bryce. So anyway, he was bummed out he couldn't be here, but, you know, Maui.

Guest [01:30:28] So the.

John Dehlin [01:30:29] The Pricey Pearl is. Is a little bit too short to want to bring you back out again when you complete that. But how about. How about we bring you back out after you finish the Doctrine and Covenants?

David Michael [01:30:38] Or you could come to Chicago.

John Dehlin [01:30:41] What's that?

David Michael [01:30:42] Or you could come to Chicago.

John Dehlin [01:30:43] Oh, we could. We could go to Chicago.

David Michael [01:30:45] I'm sure Jason would love to see you. All right, everybody. Or. Or meet you halfway. How about we meet in Nauvoo? That's halfway.

John Dehlin [01:31:00] Let's do it.

David Michael [01:31:01] No, let's do it.

John Dehlin [01:31:05] Someone wants to meet in Colorado. I don't know why she wants to meet in Colorado. Any ideas?

David Michael [01:31:12] I have no idea.

John Dehlin [01:31:13] I guess. I guess it's kind of halfway.

David Michael [01:31:16] Something about something being legal.

John Dehlin [01:31:17] I don't know.

David Michael [01:31:18] I don't know what you're saying. She looks high.

John Dehlin [01:31:20] I don't know. I'm way not there yet. I'm still. Yeah, so, okay, so I want to open, open. You guys have been really generous as an audience. This has been really fun. I want to go ahead and close as we normally do, kind of. And you may or may not know.

Open Stories Foundation and Closing Testimonies

David Michael [01:31:38] Well, actually, before we go there, can you talk a little bit more about what you see, the vision of the Taylor Scholarship and the Open Stories foundation and where you see that going and how we're going to be able to help people with that?

John Dehlin [01:31:48] Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, I don't know how much you guys have, how much experience you have with procuring mental health services, but the truth is the average therapist, you know, depending on whether they're a social worker or a marriage and family therapist or a licensed psychologist, I think the average kind of rate is a hundred dollars per session.

John Dehlin [01:32:09] Some of the more competent psychologists easily charge 150. If you're in a really nice, you know, like a New York City or LA Market, it can be a 200 plus. So. So the truth is 3,000 bucks, as awesome as that is, and it's going to help a lot of people. That's about 30 sessions if you're charging 100 bucks an hour. And you know, usually they say on average it takes about six to eight sessions for someone to really see, you know, positive results or, you know, 80% of the positive benefit from a therapy session. So what we've agreed to do, Natasha Helfer Parker, the Mormon therapist, she's on the board of the Open Stories Foundation.

John Dehlin [01:32:50] My plan is to work with her to develop, you know, just a simple little system. We have to maintain the confidentiality of the people seeking services. That's something that needs to be secured. And we also have to find a way to match up the right person seeking services with the right type of therapist. That's not always easy, but we're going to come up with a system that's kind of blind and respectful of people's authority, where there aren't any conflicts of interest to kind of match up as many people as we can. We imagine that hopefully there'll be some that can kind of pay for some of their services and maybe we'll support and do some co pays and that could make the dollars stretch out a little bit more.

John Dehlin [01:33:32] So we'll figure out a way to stretch those dollars as much as we can. What we can promise is that it'll respect the people's privacy. There'll be no conflict of interest of anyone making those decisions, benefiting from it directly and more indirectly. And we'll do our best to stretch that out and help as many people as possible. And, you know, it's the way these podcasts work is sometimes the support kind of increases exponentially. So the extent to which people still step up and support your podcast through its future episodes, we'll just make sure that money gets put to good use. You know, you're gonna have full.

John Dehlin [01:34:11] You're gonna have full visibility, David, you already do, into the PayPal account, so that you know. You know where the money's going. Those who actually receive services will be invited to share their story, even if they want to preserve their own anonymity, which is totally understandable. If they want to share a letter to you to thank you or to just let you know or your listeners know how much their donations have helped, we'll find a way to communicate that in a way that preserves people's privacy. But full transparency, no monkey business. 100% of the money goes to help people, and they can channel it through your. Through your page. Any other questions about that?

David Michael [01:34:55] Sorry. People in the crowd are, like, texting me questions right now, so I'm trying to convince them to stand up and ask for themselves. Anyway,

John Dehlin [01:35:04] nailed it.

David Michael [01:35:04] Well done. Thank you. Yeah, I think so. You did a great job.

John Dehlin [01:35:08] All right. Okay. And if people have ideas, we're welcome to. We haven't started distributing the money yet. It's just in a bank account that you. You have visibility into. I finished my internship in one month, and then we can really get a system going that's really effective.

Guest [01:35:23] So.

John Dehlin [01:35:25] So any other things before I ask my final question? Then? I want to open. Open the floor up. Just a few questions.

David Michael [01:35:30] So, yeah, let's open it up.

John Dehlin [01:35:32] Okay. So before we end, I always end my episodes the same way, and I ask people to share kind of what they're. You know, we call it a testimony in the LDS Church, but in Mormonism, we. We call it a testimony. But go ahead and. Go ahead and close by sharing kind of. Kind of what principles or truths you live by. If you want to inform that by any of your experiences in this podcast, that's great. But just go ahead and share with us kind of some closing thoughts, and then we'll. We'll open up the Floor to. Just a few questions.

David Michael [01:36:05] What am I supposed to do? Testimony closing. You went all over.

John Dehlin [01:36:11] I know.

David Michael [01:36:12] Pick one.

John Dehlin [01:36:12] So what. What. What beliefs are important to you now that inform your life?

David Michael [01:36:17] Okay. I think my beliefs that. That I live by is that I believe that helping other people is more rewarding than anything you can try to do for yourself. I've never owned anything that felt as good as helping someone else. And I think the more you can spread that virus amongst others, I think the better the world will be. And I also think that, yeah, I think what people believe, what they. What they do, as long as it's not harming others, is really none of my business. And knock yourself out. And, yeah, I will. I will try to get in the way of anyone that's stopping you from doing that. So, yeah, I don't know. That's. You put me on the spot is my spur of the moment answer to that question. Hopefully it was.

John Dehlin [01:37:14] All right, good enough. All right, so you guys have been super patient. There's a lot of. A lot of more fun and conversation and partying to do for those of you who want to stay and hang out. But anyone want to come up, you can use my mic and just ask David a question or two. Try to keep your questions brief.

Audience Questions and Advice for Loved Ones

David Michael [01:37:35] What you can't answer. Come on now. Me you can help.

John Dehlin [01:37:38] Okay, I'll help all my own. All right, anybody, go ahead and make a line so we can have the questions come up kind of. Kind of quickly so we're not waiting like in fast and testimony meeting where we have to. Anybody else want to come up?

Guest [01:37:55] Sorry, I'm still in the closet. I don't want my face on video.

John Dehlin [01:38:02] Hold it to the mouth to my.

Guest [01:38:04] This better?

John Dehlin [01:38:05] Yep.

Guest [01:38:05] Sorry. I post online under the alias Cold Dodger. I don't want to use my real name. David's been monstrumental. David's been monster. Monstru. Mental.

John Dehlin [01:38:18] Instrumental. Monumental. And instrumental. And slightly mental.

Guest [01:38:25] David's been instrumental in helping me out of a tight spot. I'm going up to school in Rexburg, so I just had one last question I wanted to ask him. When you're on the other side of the Mormon curtain, we call it the Mormon curtain, sometimes you'll almost do anything to make it work. There's nothing more you want in the whole world than to make it work. And when I was a believer in the Book of Mormon, it wasn't about that it was anything new. It was that it kind of fleshed out the biblical God and made him seem real. And the book seemed so audacious that no one would dare put it out there unless it were true and they were just trying to accomplish a good thing.

Guest [01:39:09] And especially after I did have that Moroni's promise experience, it did seem pretty real to me. And after that, the Book of Mormon came to represent my immediate access to God, and I would have done anything to defend the book just to keep that feeling.

Guest [01:39:26] So for those of your listeners who are believers still, I think that's why they keep on believing, is because even though the anachronisms are staring them right in the face, they will do anything to defend that feeling and to defend the great legacy they feel like they're marching at the head of. What would you say to them?

Guest [01:39:50] And especially a second question after that, what would you say to them about a family member, a son or daughter or so spouse who has stopped believing in that book? And they just can't seem to understand why.

David Michael [01:40:06] Really, the professional won't take it.

John Dehlin [01:40:11] I asked the questions.

David Michael [01:40:12] Yeah, yeah. All right, so I'll try and. All right, so the first part is the. Why would people continue to believe it even if there's evidence of. To the contrary thrown at him? And.

John Dehlin [01:40:29] Or just what would you say to him? If the book just means a lot,

David Michael [01:40:32] I would tell them there's nothing, you know, if you're getting value out of it and you're. It's helping you live a better life, that's great. Good. I would rather you do that than be a mass murderer. If that's what you think you would be. If Thou Shalt Not Kill wasn't in a book for you. If you think you would go kill people, then, yeah, believe that book. That's good. Do that.

David Michael [01:40:54] So, no, I think it's the man. You really put us on the spot here. But I think to be able to say that there's nothing wrong with someone else believing differently than you, I think that's what it boils down to.

David Michael [01:41:13] You need to respect that. Everyone's not going to agree with you. All of us need to. No one is ever going to agree with everything you agree with, ever. And the sooner you can say that diversity of opinion actually helps you, it makes you smarter, it makes you wiser. And so you shouldn't be afraid of hearing diversity of opinion. So it's great that you want to believe that. I don't. We can talk about it and we can respectfully talk about it. You can tell me what you find interesting about it. I actually do this with my dad, who is an evangelical pastor. We sit up hours on end at night and just talk.

David Michael [01:41:48] And we. I don't attack him. I don't tell him he's an idiot. He didn't tell me I'm an idiot. And we just talk about stuff. And I said, why do you believe this? Why do you believe that? And he's, you know, it's. It's. We actually get to know each other better, in fact. And so if you even look at someone and say, I want to get to know you better, explain to me why you believe this. Because I want to know you.

David Michael [01:42:09] Not because I'm trying to disprove you or debunk you. I just want to know you better. Because right now I feel like there's this distance between us because we disagree with this thing. And it's so important to you that it's created this chasm between us. Right. And so how do we bring that together? Let's talk.

David Michael [01:42:26] That's one way. And trust me, there's no. I don't have a silver bullet for this. Right. There isn't one. Every situation's different. But I think if you go into it without thinking that I'm right, they're wrong. And my job is to prove they're wrong.

David Michael [01:42:43] That is when everyone gets defensive quickly. And so I think that going into it with the I just want to know you more, I think is probably a safer approach. And I don't know. I'm really interested in the professional therapist answering this question a little better than I am, but that's my best shot.

John Dehlin [01:43:03] I don't graduate for another month, so.

Guest [01:43:05] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:43:08] What was this part of the question?

David Michael [01:43:09] Oh, how would you. How would you address it to a family member if they stop believing?

Guest [01:43:16] Talking to a believer? What would you tell them about a family member that they can't understand?

David Michael [01:43:22] Stop believing.

Guest [01:43:24] And maybe they're doing a hysterical.

John Dehlin [01:43:26] So what would you say to a believing family member whose family member has stopped believing? Yeah. To kind of.

David Michael [01:43:35] Your turn, John. Really? You're leaving this all on me? I don't know what you tell them. Okay. Again, I would say you should talk. Same answer. Talk. And get to know each other more in that. Make that the reason that you're having the conversation. Is it, I love you and I want to know you better. I want to know everything about you. I want to know what you believe, why you believe it, how your brain works. And let's do that together and we'll grow together.

David Michael [01:44:04] That would be. And not everybody can do that. That's why this. There isn't A silver bullet answer. But at least to taking that approach, I think it's a softer approach. Because you're right. If you go in with the I'm right, you're wrong, shields go up so fast and a. It's pointless. You're just bashing shields together, basically.

David Michael [01:44:24] So I know that's the approach I've taken, which has worked for me, to just have the. Like. I don't do very well in theological debates with strangers, quite frankly. Like, I'm not the guy that could just go up to someone on the street and be like, let's talk this out. I'm really good with having conversations with people I care about because I actually care what they believe, and I care about getting to know them more. And so that approach seems to work for me, at least in that context.

John Dehlin [01:44:53] Excellent. Next question. Me?

David Michael [01:45:00] No, no, you're just a student. What do you know?

John Dehlin [01:45:03] I don't know anything. Next question.

Humor and Funny Names in the Book of Mormon

David Michael [01:45:06] Got another.

John Dehlin [01:45:12] Do you remember what is the funniest part of the Book of Mormon that you found the most hilarious?

David Michael [01:45:18] Oh, man. Help me out, guys. What did I laugh the most about? Actually, I know what it was. It had to be those submarines. That was nuts. It was kind of like the way. Because it didn't just drop the bomb on you, did it? It was like they made a boat. So you're like, okay. Or barges, I think they call them. They barges.

Guest [01:45:39] Okay.

David Michael [01:45:39] Barge is fine, whatever. And it was like they were tight, like a dish. You're like, okay. They were. Of course they were waterproof. They're boats. It's like. And so was the top. You're like, the top. What? They had, like, a canopy. I'm not following. And then. And then all of a sudden, I was like, no, no, no, can't be submarines. And then somewhere it was like, yes, we'll be done with the whales. I was like, oh, my God, they're submarines.

John Dehlin [01:45:59] This is crazy.

David Michael [01:46:02] So, yeah, the way that one kind of came in, that one, that was pretty funny. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:46:08] All right.

David Michael [01:46:09] And then what was the other? Magic brass ball is pretty awesome, too. Just because it came from out of nowhere. That one was the opposite. Right. So the submarine, they kind of led you in. You're like, what is it? We're not sure. That ball was, like, nothing there one minute, next minute, magic brass ball. So, yeah, those two, I think, were probably funny. Does anyone else remember a moment that I found particularly funny? Am I missing one? All right. Oh, the names.

John Dehlin [01:46:40] Yes, yes.

David Michael [01:46:42] T and Cum is the funniest name in the history of Names which John, I first thought was teen come. I was corrected and told, no, don't be crude. It's not Teen cum. It's Tea Income. I'm like, oh, that's better. So much better. Sounds like a lovely beverage. Yeah. There were some other names that were pretty. I don't remember. I should go back and listen to, like, the craziest sounding. That one is by far the best, though. Tea Income is fantastic. And people are actually called that today. Right? Like that's a name, isn't it? People have told me that. Does anyone know a T incom or you know, one? That's awesome. Can't believe that's wrong. Is it pronounced that way? Yeah, that's a little bit. Okay, so you just kind of say it faster to make it not as bad. Tim, heard you.

John Dehlin [01:47:53] You're an.

David Michael [01:47:54] Oh, no, no, I said it fast. Doesn't count.

John Dehlin [01:48:01] Another question for David. We're good.

David Michael [01:48:05] Well, if you don't. If you want to talk and don't want to do it on the mic, then like I said, I'll hang out for a while. And John, thank you so much for having me and talking me into coming out.

John Dehlin [01:48:15] Thank you, David, Michael. Everybody stand up and give David a. Stand up and give David a round of applause. Let's give David a. Cheers, everybody. On three. One, two, three. Cheers. You can drink if you choose. All right, so thank you so much for coming out tonight. This has been a total blast. I had no idea so many people would come. It's a bad choice of words.

Farewell and Closing Remarks

David Michael [01:48:58] Yeah, right. I almost. And we didn't even have tea.

John Dehlin [01:49:05] But I hope to do these more. So if you guys are interested, if you have ideas on other people we could bring as soon as school's out. I can literally do these things once a week if that's not overkill. But thank you so much for coming. Thanks for your support. Please join us@mormonstories.org you're welcome to go up there and comment on this episode. This should be on YouTube, so for those of you who want to share it in video. And Dave in all his glory, you can share that on YouTube. But thanks so much for joining us today on Mormon Stories.

David Michael [01:49:44] I think he told a bald joke. All right, we'll let it go.

John Dehlin [01:49:50] You guys are awesome. Lots more cool things to come, so please stay tuned. And thanks again for coming. Drive safely.

David Michael [01:49:57] Thanks, everybody.

John Dehlin [01:50:00] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories podcast. To discuss this podcast with others, please check us out@mormonstories.org to join one of our 80 plus support communities across the globe. Click on the Support communities tab@mormonstories.org to keep this podcast alive. Please consider a tax deductible donation today by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org audio and video for this podcast were provided by Richard Holdman. A big thanks to the Saber Rattlers for providing the music for today's episode. The Mormont Stories logo was generously donated by studiocase.com come, come ye saints, no

David Michael [01:50:39] toil nor labor fear but with joy when you're.

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