Introducing Dr. Claudia Bushman and the Episode

John Dehlin [00:00:51] Well, Dr. Claudia Bushman, thank you so much for coming on Mormon Stories podcast. It's a delight to have you.

Claudia Bushman [00:00:58] Well, thanks for inviting me.

John Dehlin [00:01:00] I just have to say that I think over 14, 1500 people have listened to your first episode, and that's a lot for only a week or two. I don't know if I want to compare that to your husband's statistics because we don't want to embarrass him. But I just want to thank you for that. I know a lot of people have really appreciated it, and because of listener requests, I wanted to follow up with another interview. And you've been very gracious to come on, so thank you very much in advance.

Claudia Bushman [00:01:27] Well, I hope that it's worth your while.

John Dehlin [00:01:29] Oh, I know it will be. So here's the goal. We've talked about feminism in the 19th and 20th century in the United States to give a background. We've had you talk a little bit about your background in feminism within the church and women's issues.

John Dehlin [00:01:51] But one of the things that I feel really sad to omit is a really good discussion of women in 19th and let's say, early 20th century Mormonism. One of the things I said in my introduction is that if you polled the average church member and said, name five inspirational women in our church history, you know, maybe they'd get Emma, but Emma has been in many ways discredited by some. Maybe they'd say Eliza R. Snow, but they wouldn't be able to actually say much about her. And then I think after that, you'd have a really hard time. And so what I would love to do is have you talk to the extent that you can about what it was like to be a woman in 19th century Mormonism and even early 20th century Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:02:38] And if you could just leave us with 3, 5. However, many are comfortable names and stories of women that every Mormon should know for one reason or another. So let's start wherever you feel comfortable, and I'll maybe ask some questions along the way.

Notable Women of 19th Century Mormonism

Claudia Bushman [00:02:58] All right. Well, I have 10 women I would like to just mention, and I would say you want inspirational women. What I want is real women. So I like very much the documents that they've written themselves that are from their time that tell how they really feel rather than putting on their heads this wonderful heroism. I like to write against the heroic pioneer stereotype because I think it gets so sort of sentimental.

Claudia Bushman [00:03:29] So I like to deal with people as much as possible as they present themselves. I know that's already a representation of how they Actually were. And when I write about them, that's another representation. But still, I like to avoid, if possible, this kind of tunnel history that we generally deal with. Where we just talk about the wonderful attributes of these women and don't talk about the circumstances that they live in. And so I would mention some people, and I would particularly say that it's the people who write who last.

Claudia Bushman [00:04:04] And if any woman out there has any inclination to be remembered throughout the future, the next few generations, she just better get busy, sit down, write out her story and her experiences. And so having said that, I'd say the first most important document, if you're looking at the church from a women's point of view, is Lucy Mack Smith's story, which has been published in a number of forms. But it's just a wonderful document and provides most of what we know about the early life of the church and of the prophet. And I would just like to read you a short from that. But tell you what to notice from this particular thing.

Claudia Bushman [00:04:47] And that is how immediate she is when she talks to us, how comical she actually is. And how she is at the center of the story that she writes about. How she dramatizes everything that she does with herself as an important figure. And how she writes dialogue which cannot be correct. I mean, Lucy Mack Smith wrote this after the death of her sons. And she dictated it for about a year to Martha Jane Corey Knowlton, I think her name was. Anyway, it took her about a year to do this. But you are right there all the time. So this is what she says about after she has been up late at night and Joseph and Emma have gone to get the golden plates.

Claudia Bushman [00:05:33] Well, she's up all night. And then the next morning, they're still not back. When the male portion of the family was seated at the breakfast table, Mr. Smith inquired for Joseph, for he was not aware he had left home. I requested my husband not to call him, for I would like to have him take breakfast with his wife that morning. No, no, said my husband. I must have Joseph sit down here and eat with me. Well, now, Mr. Smith continued, I do let him eat with his wife this morning. He almost always takes breakfast with you. His father finally consented. But then in came Mr.

Claudia Bushman [00:06:08] Knight, who was their guest for the evening. And he came in quite disturbed and said, why, Mr. Smith, my horse is gone. I can't find him on the premises. And of course, that's because Emma and Joseph have taken him up to the hill to bring back the plates.

Claudia Bushman [00:06:26] And I want to leave her home. In half an hour. And I don't have my horse. Never mind the horse, said I. Mr. Knight does not know all the nooks. I'll get William to get the horse. So then that satisfied him. And then he realized that his wagon was gone. He then concluded that a rogue had stolen them both. Is that not wonderful, Mr. Knight? Do be quiet. I'd be ashamed to have you go about waiting upon yourself. Just go out and talk with Mr. Smith until William comes. And then I trembled so with fear lest all might be lost in consequence of some failure in keeping the commandments of God, that I was under the necessity of leaving the room in order to conceal my feelings. Joseph came in. Then he saw this and said, do not be uneasy, Mother. All is right. Now, isn't that a wonderful account?

John Dehlin [00:07:16] Yes.

Claudia Bushman [00:07:16] What if we didn't have that? That would just really be sad.

John Dehlin [00:07:20] Tell us what you love about that.

Claudia Bushman [00:07:22] Well, as I said, I love the immediacy of it. Even though it's written years after. I love the drama. I love that Lucy puts herself, injects herself into the center of all her stories. Does it pretty well. I like that she fakes the dialogue. I like all the things about it. I think that's one of the best sections. But also it's this contrast between this high religious moment and this low comical dramatic moment. That's what I like.

John Dehlin [00:07:51] Very colorful. And yeah, Lucy Mack Smith was an important figure in Joseph's life, wasn't she?

Claudia Bushman [00:08:05] She was. And without her family's. His family support, I'm sure that things would have been much different for him. I like to think I read in the. In a Bible commentary once that said God chooses a family and then went on and talked about Abraham and Isaac and Jacob. And so I think that in Mormonism this is true. God chose a family. It was the Smith, and they were all involved.

John Dehlin [00:08:34] Very good. All right. Lucy Mack Smith, great, great woman for us to know. Do you recommend her biography, her autobiography?

Claudia Bushman [00:08:42] Absolutely. And there are a number of versions. Lavina Fielding Anderson's book that does an editorial job on it, comparing all the versions that have been printed over the years is probably the best one to look at. But I just have an old Arno republication that's one I've used. The book has been, as I said, it's been re edited several times to suppress various things or emphasize them in connection with. As you may remember, Emma Smith was somewhat under a cloud for a long time afterwards and Lucy Mack was the same because they didn't co west with the Saints. But I think that Lavina's book is probably closest to the most accurate. It's a wonderful book. Anyway, I've said that before.

John Dehlin [00:09:33] Okay, so all readers. Lavina Fielding Anderson's autobiography of Lucy Mack Smith.

Claudia Bushman [00:09:39] She calls hers Lucy's Book.

John Dehlin [00:09:42] Right. Yeah. I was. I have to admit, I was a little bit saddened when I heard that someone had taken the liberty to rewrite her autobiography. That didn't feel right to me. But maybe we can have some compassion and understanding for maybe why leaders feel like they need to do the things they do. I don't know.

Claudia Bushman [00:10:01] Well, yes, I guess that's enough. But then, actually, I have a quotation that talks about. Now, let's see. After the Smiths were killed, the newspapers began to publish stories about how various people would be. What do we call that? Ejected from the church. And Emma was usually listed there. And so the 12 defended Emma at that time, but as you know, she was fairly much demonized, vilified, if we want to use those strong words, later on by the Saints who did go west. But there's a quotation that the 12 used to defend her, which was published in the Times and Seasons, which I'm just going to read because I like it so much.

Claudia Bushman [00:10:51] Emma honored her husband while living, and she will never knowingly dishonor his good name while his martyred blood mingles with the Mother Earth. Mrs. Smith is an honorable woman. The very idea that so valuable and beloved a lady could be coaxed into a frame of disgrace like the above is as cruel and bloody as the assassination of her husband. Carthage.

Claudia Bushman [00:11:13] Yeah. So anyway, it aroused all kinds of strong feelings one way or another. You know that when the body was exhumed. When Joseph's body was exhumed, she had one of her sons cut off a lock of his hair of Joseph's hair, which he wore in a locket the rest of her life. Kind of a dramatic little detail.

John Dehlin [00:11:33] Yeah. It's hard to imagine someone who suffered more in the whole early Mormon experience than Emma did.

Claudia Bushman [00:11:40] That's right. They were just caught in a terrible, terrible set of dilemmas in that she believed he was a true prophet, but he was preaching something she couldn't stand. He loved her, but he also really did treat her badly in all kinds of ways.

Claudia Bushman [00:11:59] But I have another document here which I'm very partial to. When Emma was. When Joseph went off to Carthage to jail. Emma had asked him to write to give her a blessing. And you remember that he said that he didn't have time right then she should just write a blessing and he would sign it when he came home.

Claudia Bushman [00:12:23] That's like putting the telephone on your head for blessing. But anyway, she did this, and I only recently came across this blessing and was very interested to read it because I just hadn't been aware of what she had said. And reading it made me think that something that all women should do is write their own blessings. They should say what you want and reflect what you think should be done, and they have a good chance that it might happen. Anyway, I'm going to read you parts of her blessing, not the whole thing. It's not all that long. And of course, Joseph never did come home to sign it.

Claudia Bushman [00:13:03] But it made its way across the plains with Joseph Heywood, and eventually Juanita Brooks found it in somebody's possession. And anyway, eventually at least a copy of it made its way into the church archives. But anyway, just a couple of things that she says, and I'll give you the first part and then that gives the flavor and then some of the specifics. First of all, that I would crave as the richest of heaven's blessing would be the wisdom from my heavenly Father bestowed daily, so that whatever I might do or say, I could not look back at the close of the day with regret nor neglect the performance of any act that would bring a blessing.

Claudia Bushman [00:13:44] So on. And she desires the Spirit of God, so that she will have discernment from the Holy Ghost. She desires that all children that were born to her or were committed to her charge and she does take care of several who are not, as you know, that she will be able to bring them up in such manner that they will be useful ornaments in the kingdom of God, and in the coming day arise up and call me blessed. And she desires that her body will be taken care. But this is the part I'm getting to.

Claudia Bushman [00:14:17] I desire with all my heart to honor and respect my husband as my head ever to live in his confidence, and by acting in unison with him, retain the place which God has given me by his side. And I ask my Heavenly Father that through humility I may be enabled to overcome that curse which was pronounced upon the daughters of Eve. Two very interesting things. Despite all the trouble she's had with her husband, she wants to honor and respect him, and remain in unison with him by his side. And then in what we never do anymore, she talks about the curse of Eve may be enabled to overcome that curse which was pronounced upon the daughters of Eve, and then talks about her unison with those women.

Claudia Bushman [00:15:07] I desire to see that I may rejoice with them. These are the daughters of Eve in the blessings which God has in store for all who are willing to be obedient to his requirements. Finally, I desire that whatever may be my lot through life, I may be enabled to acknowledge the hand of God in all things. Isn't that a beautiful blessing?

John Dehlin [00:15:30] Very faithful woman.

Claudia Bushman [00:15:32] Much more than you'd expect, wouldn't you say?

John Dehlin [00:15:35] Yeah. And any detractors of the prophet Joseph would have to figure out how to explain her love and devotion to him. Because if anyone saw the ugly close up, it would have been her. Yet this clearly isn't a Posterity letter. This is a letter she wrote for herself. And she's still expressing a desire to be at Joseph's side.

Claudia Bushman [00:16:00] And I like the business of the acceptance at the end that I may be able to acknowledge the hand of God in all things. It was all meant to be.

John Dehlin [00:16:10] She also seemed to have a love for her sisters, a strong love for women.

Claudia Bushman [00:16:15] Yes, that's the Relief Society business in part. You know when she says we are going to do something extraordinary, which they did, which was fine anyway. Emma Smith is certainly what person that we have to put on that list, no matter what, particularly seeing as she was in the shade for so long. We have to really make much of her now. And that particular blessing I found in the book Mormon Enigma by Val. Linda Newell and Val Avery. That's a book that's full of things that are worth reading.

John Dehlin [00:16:51] Beautiful, beautiful. So Lucy Mack Smith and Emma.

Claudia Bushman [00:16:59] Well, then of course, things get more complicated since I wanted to talk about something that went on in Nauvoo. What I wanted to show was a little bit of the frontier high life that went on Nauvoo, but I don't have it by a member of the church, but by a Gentile who was visiting. And this is Charlotte Haven, a young girl who wrote from Nauvoo in 1843 how she had attended a party that was given by Sidney Rigdon and this party began at 3 o' clock in the afternoon. I like this because it is an example of the kind of social life they had. It's been one of my crusades over the years that we really celebrate Christmas incorrectly in the church.

Claudia Bushman [00:17:44] Why do we have Santa Claus? He belongs to other traditions. We could certainly use the manger and all that business, but we've got Joseph smith's birthday on the 23rd of December. I think what we should have is a Joseph Smith birthday party. And this is the model that I would use.

Claudia Bushman [00:18:02] Okay, so we've got Charlotte haven't going to this party at Sidney Rigdon's house. Arriving at three o'. Clock. And when she gets there, she's ushered into the room where there was a large quilting frame. That's how they had their parties, surrounded by eight of the belles of Nauvoo and to whom she was introduced. And she sat down and began to quilt. But no words were said at all. And she felt that her presence had maybe checked the hilarity of the occasion. So she offered a few kindly remarks, only to be answered very briefly. Yes, marm. No, marm. It was quite embarrassing. But the next neighbor timidly whispered, we talk in the evening.

Claudia Bushman [00:18:46] So she was stilled and she continued to quilt until 6 o'. Clock. And that's when the fifth quilt was finished and taken down. And then the door to the next room was thrown open and we were ushered in. And through the whole length of the table, the whole length of the room from the post office to the stove, there was a long table with a substantial supper of turkey, chicken, beef, vegetables, pies and cakes. To this they did silent justice.

Claudia Bushman [00:19:16] Anyway, then they left the family to clear that away and they went back to the other room and they sat around the room like wallflowers, she said. And then Mr. Rigden came in and shook hands with the men and proceeded to introduce each of the men to all the women. Mr. Monroe, this is Ms. So and so. Ms. So and so and so down the line. And then when he was done, another one was called up. Anyway, they were eventually all introduced. Then this ceremony over all seemed more joyous. Songs were sung, concluding with two little girls singing several verses of the Battle of Michigan.

Claudia Bushman [00:19:52] Then followed an original dance without music, commencing with marching and ending with kissing. Who could believe such things went on in Nauvoo, that holy city? So then they began to play merry games. The Miller grab, etc. And seeing as it was not at all an intellectual gathering, she suggested Fox and Geese, which she had played 10 years before. And that took well. Her brother came upon the group during the evening and Sidney Rigdon was saying to his wife, come look in upon the young people that he had been over half the world and had never seen anything equal to this in enjoyment.

Claudia Bushman [00:20:32] So at 9 o' clock they go in for more supper and then more games and more dancing. And she left about 10. But look, that's a seven hour party. The Ms. Rigden's called on her the next day and they said the party didn't break up until midnight. Now that's how they celebrated in Nauvoo. I don't know. Is that faith promoting? Maybe not enough.

John Dehlin [00:20:55] You know, when I think about how we entertain ourselves these days, that just seems spectacular. How do we get back to that now?

Claudia Bushman [00:21:06] What do you mean? What do you think is so spectacular? All the gaiety or what?

John Dehlin [00:21:11] Just it seems like they're loving life and loving each other. A rich, deep interaction of fun and joy and games. Am I misinterpreting what you read?

Claudia Bushman [00:21:22] No, you're not, and I quite agree. And a couple of memoirs that I've read just this last week, the one of Virginia Sorensen, who grew up in Manti, and of Juanita Brooks, who grew up in the southern colonies. I was very struck by that. What a rich social life they had because they have nothing else. And they created all themselves but all the pageants, all the parties, all the special events and. Well, how do you think we can get back to it? Well, we could. I actually have things to say on that subject, but never mind that for this moment.

John Dehlin [00:21:59] But you have hope that someday we can maybe return a bit to our. Our. Not frivolous, but our joyful roots?

Claudia Bushman [00:22:08] Well, I'm a project person, I believe. Yes, you do a project, you plan an event. You do things of that kind, and you do them with the people that you're around. And I just would like to see much more interesting cultural life in our church than goes on today.

John Dehlin [00:22:25] Wonderful. That's a wonderful reading. Thank you.

Claudia Bushman [00:22:30] All right. Why don't you ask me some questions? I've got some more of these people, and I think they're very interesting, but maybe this is more reading than you want.

John Dehlin [00:22:38] No, the reading is wonderful, I guess. You know, is there a way. Is this putting you too much on the spot to say, what was it like to be a mother and a wife in Nauvoo? You know, I guess it wouldn't hurt to talk about who some of the prominent women were in Nauvoo in terms of leadership or influence. That's really putting you on the spot. But it'd be great to paint a picture of how a woman's life then might contrast with a woman's life now. And just to sort of get a sense for, in the power circles or in the circles of influence, what role women might have played. But that's a lot to bite off, and so answer some or none or all as you feel fit.

Claudia Bushman [00:23:29] Right. Ask me tomorrow when I'll have it all on the tip of my tongue. But as you know, the situation in the church is that certainly in the early days, women have no official place at all. But what they do have is their prayer circles where they have. They practice their spiritual gifts, they speak in tongues, they bless each other, they do things of that kind. And that is all they have until 42. In the other broadcast, I think I talked about this wonderful revelation to Emma Smith.

John Dehlin [00:24:04] Yes.

Claudia Bushman [00:24:05] That said she should exhort the congregation and whatever the other word is, the Scriptures, so that. And that she could really be a person that took part in those things. But none of the women are doing that. They just don't. They have this life that is very different. And for my interests, I don't really like to deal with the importance. Important people as much as I do the ordinary people, because you get a very different idea of the church and of the people when you deal with the institutional life. If you're just going to talk about the president and the important people of the Relief Society, then you still don't get down to that ordinary person who is doing the milking and managing as best you can.

Claudia Bushman [00:24:52] And we have made a lot in the church about the glorious social life of Nauvoo, But Nauvoo, it lasts for seven years, and the beginnings are so hard, and it's so hard throughout the whole thing that I really think we tend to over to exaggerate the good things that went on. And then, of course, they had to leave that all and went down another step or two. I like an account that the friend of the Mormons.

Claudia Bushman [00:25:23] What is his name? Cain himself, when he goes to call on some Mormons who have just left Nauvoo and are starting on their trip west when they're just camped outside. And he says that he has never seen a group of women who are so attractive, that they are so clean and neat and beautifully put together, that they dance in the evening, that their ears all show the sign. But they had earrings in them, so they're all pierced, apparently. But of course, all their earrings have long since been sold, but really shows them as a group of beautiful heroines, which, you know, you don't really get that picture if you look at the photographs from Salt Lake of the people that have arrived.

Claudia Bushman [00:26:13] But he makes them much more beautiful and heroic than they would be otherwise. So I think I've got a lot more to do about reading in Nauvoo than I've done.

John Dehlin [00:26:25] Do we know if women were allowed to pray in church or hold callings or even speak in church?

Claudia Bushman [00:26:30] No, none of that. It was all Just the men until 42, when the relief Society is organized. And then even then, of course, that's not Joseph's idea. The women come to him with the model that they found from the greater world for sort of a helping society. But after that, of course, it moves very fast. And you have temple ordinances, you have women in the temple, you have all this whole new idea of an eternal family. And things change in 1842. And then you see you have a very short time before Joseph is killed. I really think there would be some big changes. There would have been some more things happening if Joseph had lived.

John Dehlin [00:27:24] So as a call to women today, it sounds like the positive changes or the progress that was made in Nauvoo for women started by actions of women.

Claudia Bushman [00:27:40] Well, you can certainly make that case. You can certainly make that case. You remember the dialogue on that, that said, where the women go to Joseph and say, we'd like to form this organization. He says, that looks wonderful. It's the best constitution I've ever seen. But I'm going to organize you according to principles of the priesthood. And that's first time women enter the structure of the church at all.

John Dehlin [00:28:03] Right.

Claudia Bushman [00:28:06] That's dramatic. Yeah, I know we tend to think that the old days were wonderful compared to the new days, and I don't think that's necessarily so. There are some surprisingly good things that happened to the women in the early days, and there are also some that were pretty tough. I still. I think my feeling is that Mormon women have really had opportunities all the time if they were willing to take them. But what we lack is vision. And I think that we got caught up in these last years in fighting battles that were just unwinnable because they just could not be.

Claudia Bushman [00:28:53] People just couldn't allow women to have certain powers. But there are other things. There are always other possibilities to do. Jan Shipps makes an interesting comment where she says that women's lives in the church have become much more passive than they were in the past, while men's lives have remained the same, and that it's because of that that women will never be allowed. Mormon women will not be allowed to write their own history. Well, I disagree with that. I think we have to write our own history, and we have to be as honest as we can about it. But, you know, you're certainly aware of that Women's. The woman's story is a very vexed subject in the church still, yet.

John Dehlin [00:29:40] Sure, sure. Okay. So that's. That's fascinating. Sounds like Nauvoo is an important Time for us to understand, you know, the past and the potential role of women. So what comes after Nauvoo?

Pioneer Women on the Trail and in Polygamy

Claudia Bushman [00:29:58] Well, I think we should talk a little bit about the pioneer trip. And I think we have. What we know when we talk about pioneers is we know about the first wagon train where Brigham Young set off with his hundred.

Claudia Bushman [00:30:11] We know about the Willie and Martin handcart companies when people suffered. And we do know that a lot of people did suffer and die crossing the plains, but the largest number of them didn't. And I would think certainly if each of us walked 15 miles a day, we'd probably be better off for it. You know, it's not exactly an easy trip, as we know. And I thought at least it was easy until you got to the Rocky Mountains. That after visiting Wyoming in the spring and seeing that terrible wind and knowing what happened to the handcart companies, I think it probably was hard throughout the whole thing.

Claudia Bushman [00:30:49] Anyway, I want to say something about the second wagon train, which was very large, as I said, Brigham Young had 150 men, and the second wagon train had 10 times that many people, 1553 people. And just because I like statistics, it had 2,212 oxen, 124 horses, and 587 cows, 358 sheep, 716 chickens and some pigs. I think it's interesting that they count the chickens and not the pigs. I don't know why that is, but what you've got is this huge, moving agricultural village. They have everything but land.

Claudia Bushman [00:31:35] And I am indebted to Mary Isabella Horne, who was later a woman's leader, who left these statistics, which I like a lot. And she tells a little bit about her travel across and her settling in New York, in Salt Lake City. That family had three wagons, and they had some real luxuries. They had a small cooking stove, a rocking chair, and food to nourish eight people for 18 months because they have to be fed until the next year's harvest of their unplanted crop.

Claudia Bushman [00:32:09] Now, that's really dramatic, I think. And so what you've got is women keeping house along the trail just the way they would at home, to the extent that they could. And when they passed Brigham Young's party, which was returning to winter quarters, they prepared a feast, roasting a fat steer and improvising a table for a thousand diners.

John Dehlin [00:32:33] Holy moly this.

Claudia Bushman [00:32:34] Despite that, the snow was falling heavily. So, you know, there you have the heroic housewife managing despite all. I think that's really wonderful. Anyway, when they get to Salt Lake, they're among the first to actually have a house. They lived in a tent for a while and then they got moved into a two room log house, but no floors or doors. And they improvise a corner bed by boring holes and two walls to insert poles which then met where there was one bed leg that sat on the floor. Can you picture that? I think it is so ingenious.

Claudia Bushman [00:33:14] Then they interlaced strips of rawhide for the spring and for light, they used a little twisted rag with some grease and made a lamp. And they brought with them two windows as well as their stove and rocking chair. And they made things out of packing boxes. So what is interesting to me is the way they managed to recreate the houses that they had lived in before, similar to those that they'd left behind.

Claudia Bushman [00:33:40] Now, what they had for a roof in this case was sod. And this meant, as she said, that even after the rain stopped, it continued to rain inside. And that meant that the people would go about their work carrying their umbrellas to shield themselves from this muddy water that was falling from their ceilings. Now, isn't that a great vision image?

John Dehlin [00:34:04] Yeah.

Claudia Bushman [00:34:05] Yeah. So they had some hard times, but also they managed. And when these wagon trains are going off and leaving the people behind, the women that are left in the. In winter quarters, that's where they practice all their spiritual gifts and do things of that kind anyway.

John Dehlin [00:34:30] Yeah. So was it just grueling? Was it just grueling to be a woman and a mother under these circumstances?

Claudia Bushman [00:34:41] I think it depends completely on your state of health and everything. I think though, that. But I just made it sound as good as possible, I think, because one of the facts that gets me is that the wagon trains would stop when there was a breakdown, but if there was a woman in labor or delivering a baby, they would not stop. So just imagine having a baby in one of those rocking, bumpy wagons. It would just be. Who could imagine such a thing as no surprise that mothers and babies died under those circumstances?

John Dehlin [00:35:19] You know, my wife has a hard time taking one child to the grocery store for an hour. And I'm not disparaging her. I've tried it and it's almost impossible. How do you take a family of four or eight across the plains under the circumstances? And maybe, maybe everyone rises to the occasion because they have to. I'm just trying to wrap my brain around how to maintain order in the family and not have a kid run off and get run over or catch disease or injure themselves. And you know, gosh, it seems complex,

Claudia Bushman [00:35:53] and especially when so many of the husbands would be in charge of them, companies of 10 and 50 and 100. So they would have to be gone all the time supervising whatever else was happening around? Yeah, I think it would be very tough. On the other hand, these people didn't know what they were getting into. And we have a lot of people that fell away from Nauvoo. Maybe if you had a place you could go to, you might have left at that point. The people. I understand we had a stronger percentage of people who had immigrated from Europe rather than people from local places in the United States, but stuck with it at that time. And again, I mean, what are your choices? Yeah, by this time, they're down to no money of any kind. Where are they supposed to go?

John Dehlin [00:36:50] Do we have a sense for how men on average treated women? Did they have, you know, behind the scenes, they were open and candid discussions about important issues where they felt equal partners, or was the man just sort of cavemanish and you're the woman and know your place, and I'm going off to do my man's work? I mean, do we even have a sense from journals as to what relationships were like between husband and wife during this time period? Mormon or not?

Claudia Bushman [00:37:19] We're going to have a complete range, of course. And there were certainly many men that depended very heavily on their wives who were taking care of things while the men were off. You know, the women have Mormon women who have the entire management of their households, of their families because their husbands are busy with business affairs and also because they're off on missions and things of that kind. And I don't know of any cases, I have not heard of any cases of serious physical abuse of wives.

Claudia Bushman [00:37:55] They are certainly treated not always respectfully, but not necessarily browbeaten. They just sort of ignored. They're just part of the. Part of the machinery of your household. But I think that'd be interesting to find out. I'm sure there were some pretty good companion relationships as well. But I'm interested in how many of the women always referred to their husbands as Mr. So and so, rather than calling them by any pet names or even their own first names. There's a certain kind of distance and respect in marriage at the time.

John Dehlin [00:38:35] So potentially for many, sort of a business logistical kind of relationship, but for many, maybe not close intimacy or confidence.

Claudia Bushman [00:38:47] Now and then with polygamy, you have a very difficult situation. Again, you have so many charges of inequality among the wives that many husbands bend over Backwards to be equal. And that means that they have to distance themselves from their wives as well. Augusta Joyce Croceron, in writing about polygamous relationships, says, anybody can be a regular wife, but takes certain abilities and skills to be a polygamous wife and to bear up under the sorts of things that are required. But it's even harder for the men who must then learn to manage their own households in peace. And.

John Dehlin [00:39:34] Yeah.

Claudia Bushman [00:39:35] So it's not easy for anybody that can be seen.

John Dehlin [00:39:40] Right. Well, that's fascinating. So it must have been. Must have been hard and maybe rewarding to be a pioneer and a pioneer woman.

Claudia Bushman [00:39:52] Well, but what are you going to compare it to? It's just your life.

John Dehlin [00:39:55] Yeah, right.

Claudia Bushman [00:39:55] The way you do things. And if you got people that are coming from the mining villages in England, you know, they're a lot better off in the situation where they had some promises of future than they are with no promise.

John Dehlin [00:40:10] Right, right, right. You're probably of one to not like the sentiment that people today could have never handled the harsh conditions of the pioneers back then. You think you probably. I sense that you have a faith that humans can rise to their condition.

Claudia Bushman [00:40:24] Well, I certainly do believe that. I think we're certainly better nourished and in better physical condition than they were. And we also have technological changes that would, of course. Are we going to be able to go across on the railroad? I mean, if it's. But if we're back to do that sort of thing, yes, I think we could manage it. It's not going to be fun. Takes a long time to actually get in shape to pull a hand cart in a great distance. But as with the party in Nauvoo, there are just wonderful, wonderful rewards from doing these hard things together. I know when I was involved a couple of years ago in working on putting on the Temple Jubilee in Manhattan, and we just had insuperable problems.

Claudia Bushman [00:41:15] We had no money, we had too many people. We had too much distance. We had no place to practice. We had no place to put it on. You know, just endless, great, big impossible problems which were solved one after another. And we eventually did put on the biggest show that was ever performed at Radio City Music Hall. Well, when that actually happened, I think any one of us would have walked to winter quarters or to Missouri on our knees. You know, you just have a heightened sense of sort of glorification when you do these hard things. It's very rewarding.

John Dehlin [00:41:56] Again, a call for. A call for project. Project based faith, maybe?

Claudia Bushman [00:42:01] Yeah, I think so.

John Dehlin [00:42:03] Yeah. Now go ahead. Please.

Mormon Women's Ambitions and Achievements

Claudia Bushman [00:42:08] Well, I was just going to talk about another woman. I talk about any. I mean, if you want me to answer questions, we'll do that, too. But I think as an example of a person that could do something in difficult circumstances, that Ella Schipp stands out as a significant person. And again, we really only know about her because she wrote her story, but she was a plural wife, had several children. When it became possible that she could go east to medical school. This is from Salt Lake. And so she determined to do it. Her husband was not exactly enthusiastic.

John Dehlin [00:42:46] Just to get a timeline, what year, approximately?

Claudia Bushman [00:42:49] I mean, I didn't say it. Time period in the 70s, 80s, 1870s.

John Dehlin [00:42:56] 1880s. Around there. Okay, okay, right.

Claudia Bushman [00:42:59] And medical schools were just opening up for women at all. But Brigham Young favored women being medical practitioners for modesty purposes. And so Ellis Shipp went off to Philadelphia and studied medicine. And the first year she came back for vacation over the summer, and when it was time to return, she discovered she was pregnant. And her husband said, well, you can't go now. Well, I'm going. And she did and managed to deliver this child just after she finished her exams. So I. And then she became a leader in this medical field. In Salt Lake, one of her sister wives, Maggie Shipp, also went off and studied medicine.

Claudia Bushman [00:43:45] Several others did. And we had this real flowering of Mormon women doctors. Now, that would seem impossible, but it still was doable. Her sister wives could take care of the children. She managed. She. She got some encouragement. Anyway, things like that show me that there are possibilities for Mormon women to do really whatever they really want that is reasonable at almost any given time.

John Dehlin [00:44:19] Because that was an extraordinary achievement in the day.

Claudia Bushman [00:44:22] Yes. I mean, there were more female doctors in Utah per capita than in any other of them places in the United States. Sa.

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