Introduction and Guest Overview

John Dehlin [00:00:10] Hello and welcome to this new edition of the Mormon Stories) Podcast. My name is John Dehlin. Welcome. Thanks for listening. As you know, you can find us at mormonstories.org or you can email us at mormonstoriesmail.com it's very exciting to have you guys listening. I hope you've enjoyed the past two podcasts that we've had so far.

John Dehlin [00:00:34] Today we sort of bring to you a bit of a different podcast. Let me give you a little bit of background or history One of the phenomenons in the LDS Church that I see as being most significant is the following scenario.

John Dehlin [00:00:51] A young person, maybe in their 20s or 30s, is called to be a Sunday school teacher or seminary teacher, early morning seminary or whatever, and decides they want to learn a little bit more about their history. So they start going to Google and googling for information about Mormon, mormonism, Mormon studies, LDS history, and they quickly come upon anti Mormon websites exmormon.org post Mormon view from the foyer, ZLMB, the tanners. There's lots of lots of forums out there. Some of them are liberal Mormons, some of them are anti Mormon, some of them are post Mormon, ex Mormon, etc.

John Dehlin [00:01:34] But what's pretty certain is that after a significant amount of time on the web, a lot of these LDS folk become discouraged, become confused, feel disenchanted that the facts of the history or the stories about the history don't add up to what they were taught, what they were led to believe when they were young.

John Dehlin [00:01:59] And some of them end up making a relatively quick exit from the church and leave the church altogether. A small percentage of these people actually become anti Mormon, or at least that's what the label would denote, which means that they not only leave the church, but decide that they're going to do their best to help other people leave it as well.

John Dehlin [00:02:23] I think it's very easy within the church to use labels to stereotype and to stigmatize people. I think the X and the anti Mormon labels or apostate labels have been used rather freely to this end. And while I do believe that there are people who have ill will or ill intent, I believe that in many instances these labels of anti Mormon or ex Mormon or whatever are unproductive.

John Dehlin [00:02:54] I've talked with many people who have left the church and I find virtually all of them to be very sincere. And in some cases they're some of the most intelligent people I've met in the church, and in some instances they're some of the most honest people I've met in the church.

John Dehlin [00:03:12] This may sound controversial, but just think about it for a second. It's pretty much a well known fact that reading detailed, factual LDS history is something that we're warned against and sometimes can we're warned that can lead to apostasy. Well, who is it that would seek to read some of this history? It's usually the people who a really care about the church and want to learn more about it.

John Dehlin [00:03:42] So the seeking, thoughtful type. But secondly, it's the people who have high integrity, who are honest, who want to make sure that what they're teaching is right, that what they believe is right. And so in many cases it's the thoughtful, honest people that end up working themselves out of the church, whereas many of the people who stay in, and this is not all, but many simply don't care to learn the history because the history in the background isn't important to them.

John Dehlin [00:04:12] In addition, there are also a fair number of people in the church, I suppose, who stay in, whether or not they care that it's true or valid or factual, but they just sort of are along for the ride, so to speak.

John Dehlin [00:04:28] So this is a long way of saying that I believe that it's not of use to label people as anti Mormon in most instances. And I don't think it's necessarily what Christ would do. Instead, I think that he would sit down with these people, get to know them personally, ask them about their issues, ask them about their feelings.

John Dehlin [00:04:53] At a minimum, try and reach out to them and fellowship them. But most importantly, try and understand them and learn from them and figure out whatever caused them to leave, how those things can be fixed, to keep others from leaving or to bring other people back who have left. So in that spirit, I've decided to do at least a two part series on people that would be labeled as anti Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:05:19] Today we've brought on a fellow who's going by a pseudonym. The name that he's chosen is Hyrum. Hyrum is a young man, he's married, returned missionary, and he actually runs a website called thechurchisnotrue.com which has an accompanying podcast that he does with a fellow by the name of Mike Norton.

John Dehlin [00:05:45] And I've come to know Hyrum through my correspondence about his podcast as he's a member of the Mormon podcast community. And I asked him if he wouldn't mind coming on, coming on the show. The purpose of this podcast is simply to have Hyrum tell us his story, his childhood, growing up, where he came from, his early years in the church and then most importantly, give us a little bit of the background on why he decided to leave and, and what sort of fuels him today to do the things that he does with his website. So I hope you enjoy the show and I hope you understand that the spirit of this presentation is to come to understand and empathize with those who decide to leave purely with the intent of one, loving them and valuing them and not ostracizing them and ex, you know, sort of expunging them from our community, but also to see what we can do to try and keep this from happening from those who.

John Dehlin [00:06:47] Who maybe learn some of the history, learn some of the facts, but choose to stay in the church. One thing I should warn you about briefly is that in just a few seconds, the sound quality of this podcast, especially on my end, is going to drop quite low.

John Dehlin [00:07:02] Hiram and I did this podcast really late at night. I didn't have all my equipment with me at the time, and so I skyped in to his, his sound booth and didn't have a very good microphone. So please forgive my audio in just a few seconds. But without any further ado, we'd like to welcome Hyrum onto this podcast. Hiram, thanks for joining us.

Hyrum [00:07:26] Hey, thank you very much, John. I appreciate the, the welcome and the, the wee hours of the night. Thanks for having me. A lot of fun.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:07:39] We might even be able to consider this morning now.

Hyrum [00:07:41] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, how lovely was the morning.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:07:46] Yes, it's.

Hyrum [00:07:48] We're trying to keep our eyelids open and anyway, thanks for having me though. And it's a pleasure to be on with someone so articulate and especially a fellow podcaster. It's great to be here.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:08:02] Yes, well, I definitely aspire to being articulate, but I appreciate the kind words.

Hyrum [00:08:06] Oh, you're much more articulate than me. You'll be hearing me say quite a bit through this podcast. Suffer with me, bear with me.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:08:15] My goal is to never say sort of so you can track me and I'll track you. So I. So sort of. I have to admit that I've listened to every one of your guys podcasts so far.

Hyrum [00:08:27] Congratulations. I'm glad you made it through. We'll give you a gold medal. I think that they're out of the tickets for the bash. The bash already happened. Unless they have a time machine, they wouldn't be able to award you any of those. But congratulations. Did you. What, what kind of are your thoughts? We'll get a quick feedback from you. What do you think?

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:08:46] Oh, well, I think they're definitely Entertaining and they're fun. I think they're definitely well produced. And you know, my. My favorite part has been the interviews. And I found all your interviews to be interesting.

Hyrum [00:09:01] Me too.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:09:01] That's what, that's what this podcast is all about. I mean, I just. I want to gather as many stories as I can from around Mormondom and try and just help people communicate where they're coming from and why they feel the way they do. And you guys do a really good job of that.

Hyrum [00:09:16] Thanks. And you, I haven't heard your interview. I've listened to your first podcast and extremely well done. Loved it. You were all by yourself. And frankly, I don't mention names or anything of other podcasts, but there have been many, not necessarily dealing with Mormonism, but some, yes, that have bored me to death. And others, there's one out there in particular that I listen to faithfully. Haha. The pun is back. But anyway, yours is well done. I'm excited to hear the interview that you did with the author. What's the name again?

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:09:52] It's Gregory Prince and the Rise of modern David O. McKay and the rise of Modern Mormonism.

Hyrum [00:09:58] So you interviewed this Gregory Prince and he is the author of the Rise of Modern Mormonism? Kind of a biography of sorts of David O. McKay.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:10:09] Yep. He's actually the co author, but I think he's the principal author.

Hyrum [00:10:12] That's too cool. See, I get how hard is it for me to just, you know, scrape off the street your average ex Mormon to get him on the show, but you got. I'm. I'm sorry. No. Our past guests have been all sorts of fun. I. They were. I want to get Polygamy Porter back on. We keep getting comments about his show. Anyway, I'm glad to be here. Your label introduction was wonderful. I think it's the same thing, this podcast for the listeners of our show. It's obviously going to be missing Mike. He's not here. I don't know. I think you two have talked about probably doing something similar to what you and I are doing right now with him alone.

Hyrum [00:10:57] You voiced kind of a desire to have us be separated so that it would be more personal, which it is. But anyway, the listeners of the churchisnottrue.com they're going to realize that this podcast has a much more personal tone, yours a lot more humble. And anyway, I guess you invited me to talk about the story, but so whatever you want to ask me, I do feel thankful to be here anyway.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:11:30] Excellent. Well, good. Well, thanks for coming on.

Hyrum [00:11:33] Yeah.

Hyrum's Personal Story Begins

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:11:35] So what I want to do is sort of trace your story as personal and as emotional, not in terms of blubbering, but I mean, just as from the heart as you're able to give. I'd love to just ask you some questions about your journey and about where you are now. And just, you know, more than anything, the point is just to sort of help the listeners understand, you know, what makes you feel the way you feel, do the things you do, etc.

Hyrum [00:12:08] Sure.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:12:10] Oh, go ahead.

Hyrum [00:12:11] No, that's great. A lot of the listeners of the podcast, and especially people out there, communities out in bulletin boards and things, there were some rumors surrounding, and not just rumors, but kind of some speculation surrounding things that were going on in my life and kind of how that tied in a little bit with recent goings on with Mike Norton. And so this story wasn't going to be told for a long time. And pretty much I congratulate you. The. The. Your podcast and your invitation to me has brought it to light much quicker than what it would have been. So, anyway, well, let's.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:12:49] Well, that's. I'm excited to hear. So let's just start out. Tell us a little bit about your early years, you know, you know, your early years in the church. Were you born in the church, raised in the church? Talk us up through, let's say, you know, the age 19.

Growing Up in the Church

Hyrum [00:13:05] Okay. If I ever post the infamous exit letter, it kind of tells this story. But I was born in the church. I'm the great, great, great grandchild of Reynolds Cahoon and the great, great, great, great. I think there's another great grandchild of Hyrum Smith. And anyway, so there goes the Hiram. That's why that was chosen.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:13:37] So you're a direct descendant of Hyrum Smith.

Hyrum [00:13:40] Yeah, I mean, the polygamy makes it happen. You know, it's not that hard to be a descendant of. But yeah, so I do have Mormon roots. And definitely I appreciate, as I'll go on to say, the values that I was taught. And I'll always be a Mormon. And that's kind of your label thing. But, you know, people that are even ex Mormon, if you have been raised in Mormonism, where you've been confronted with the question of either a testimony or, oh, it wouldn't be a testimony. You can't escape that. You. You're a Mormon, either it's X or active or whatever, but it's kind of.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:14:25] It's kind of like a culture in addition to being a religion. Just like someone's Jewish, they may convert to Christianity, but it's almost in some ways an ethnicity in a culture.

Hyrum [00:14:36] Sure.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:14:36] As well as a potential belief system.

Hyrum [00:14:38] Exactly. And the more cynical side of whatever, the podcast or my personal views and opinions, I mean, you got to grab out those first letters of that word culture. And yeah, you know, in the ex Mormon community or anti. We say that Mormonism is a cult and we draw those. Those lines or whatever. But yeah, there's a. There's a definite social factor that's very different than other religions. And some people say it's a great thing and others don't, but. Yeah, so I was brought up in the church.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:15:13] Were you. Were you raised in Utah then?

Hyrum [00:15:15] Yeah. Yep. Never. Never lived outside of Utah other than the mission. And I only visited other states when my siblings moved there to get their higher education or whatever. So you.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:15:31] So you did the primary thing growing up. You. Your parents were active? Your parents were active.

Hyrum [00:15:38] Absolutely.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:15:38] Do you remember, like, in your early years, were you into it? Did you love the primary songs? I mean, were you.

Hyrum [00:15:46] Yeah, that's the question.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:15:47] Do you remember trying to memorize all your articles of faith?

Hyrum [00:15:50] Yeah, that's a great question. I remember being a valiant bee. I think that's kind of when the first recollections come that I was being taught lessons. I remember distinctly, and I haven't talked about this to very many people, but I remember those cartoons, the cartoons with the animated, you know, that they try to sell for a fortune in the malls.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:16:09] Yeah, the living scriptures.

Hyrum [00:16:11] Living scriptures, yeah. And the big noses where everyone has those huge gargantuan noses. That's the trademark. But I love those, man. I ate those up. I put those in. I plopped them in. And I loved the. I can remember the Nephi ones distinctly. The ones building the boat and whatever. As it got into more of the obscure Book of Mormon stories, it kind of. My interest would fade and wane. But then I'd like the Bible ones every once in a while, especially the birth of Christ. I remember that one. So, yeah, that was my primary experience.

Hyrum [00:16:41] And then we start getting into the deacons quorum. That's kind of when it. When it got interesting. It was cool. It was. It was cool to see other scouts when they brought in the scouting program, that they would go on the scout camps and see them have spiritual experiences.

Hyrum [00:17:01] That was neat to be able to see other youth recognize God and see that that was a special thing in their lives. And for me, too. Sure. I'm not going to deny that there were spiritual experiences, whether that makes the church True or not is isn't the question, but those are there, you know,

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:17:20] so you do, you do remember. So you remember studying or praying or being at youth conferences or scout meetings or whatever and feeling, feeling strong things that at the time you probably associated with the Holy Ghost and your testimony.

Hyrum [00:17:39] Absolutely. Yeah. There were times when. Yeah, you're brought to tears, whether I decide to make excuses for it now or whatever. Yeah, yeah. There are times when you really feel, you know, wow, this is overpowering. I feel good. I feel like this is something that there's a bigger thing out there and I feel privileged. A lot of it is a blessing, you know, I feel. Not that I'm better than others, but yeah, you know, I've been blessed with a great family and a knowledge of God or whatever. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:18:10] How central was the church in your, in your overall family? I mean, did you guys study the scriptures regularly? Was there family evening?

Hyrum [00:18:17] Great question, great question.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:18:18] Were your parents totally hardcore serving?

Hyrum [00:18:23] Yeah, that's a good question. I, of course, and I don't mean to say this for you to dodge other future questions, don't think of that at all. I have to be kind of careful, obviously.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:18:31] Yeah.

Hyrum [00:18:33] However much I reveal. Anyway. Yeah, definitely my family. I'll just say there were callings that not everyone received to family of mine that was very close, immediate family anyway. But yeah, the thing that I think we had more difficulty with because of jobs or whatever was the family home evening. We didn't do that much, but we read every single morning faithfully. They would wake us up and we would read the Book of Mormon faithfully and we would. And I talk about this in the exit letter. Anyway, I was reading See Spot Run and at the same time my family's waking me up and helping me sound out coriantumr.

Hyrum [00:19:14] So the Book of Mormon definitely helped me be able to read. So that starts my thing too. I'm a deacon and I'm reading, sounding out these words and learning how to be a studious person. But at the same time I'm trying to figure out why is this Book of God talking so much about war. But that's just a question. I pushed off, whatever. And then something kind of strange happened and this is kind of where it starts to go.

Hyrum [00:19:43] There was an emphasis when I was a deacon in the deacons Quorum about sexual purity. Anyway, I remember one deacon, president or president, whatever they call him, quorum teacher guy, and he was an ex bishop. He made comments about what. What are some of the sexual transgressions out there and mind you, a deacon in the Mormon religion means that you're 12 and 13.

Hyrum [00:20:17] And he was. He actually introduced us to people that commit bestiality. And I, I still don't feel good about that, frankly. I mean, if I were to have my child go and attend the Mormon Church, I wouldn't like that.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:20:37] Being told he kind of went into too much depth.

Hyrum [00:20:40] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you.

John Dehlin [00:20:42] So it was almost. It was almost.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:20:43] You were. Oh, I was sexually awakening. Was being. Being. Was being driven from church.

Hyrum [00:20:49] Exactly. Well, and you laugh about it, and I do too now, but inside it's. It still hurts. No.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:20:56] Yeah. So you felt like your, Your innocence was.

Hyrum [00:20:58] I felt dirty even back then. I'm like, what in the world? You know, I. I'm. I'm worried about dodgeball or how to, you know, turn the combination correctly on my gym locker. And I'm being taught in a place of God about such things now that might not seem too serious. Time moves on. My great grandmother passed away, and that was really moving for me. I mean, we were really close to even extended family like that visited them all the time. So I was envisioning how heaven would be okay. And the whole Mormon thing about families can be together forever. Okay, great. And there's a little bit of an introduction when a client or when I, a person is that age, about the three kingdoms of glory. But when I got into seminary,

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:21:47] there

Hyrum [00:21:47] was spiritual experiences there too. They show the Lamb of God video and you see the spikes going into Jesus hand and it's really moving. And oh my goodness. But the same time I was taught about the three kingdoms of glory and actually told in seminary as a ninth grade student that the highest kingdom of the celestial kingdom is where you would be able to have sexual relations. And again, I was just kind of like, well, why, why is this a running emphasis? The sexual part of the afterlife? You know, I'm picturing my grandma now, great grandma passed away, and yet now I'm having to picture her doing weird things and heaven. And I know that's morbid. That really is weird. I shouldn't have gone off to that thought process. But yet in my mind, I'm thinking, why?

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:22:39] Why? Your seminary teacher actually said that one of the bennies of highest degree of celestial kingdom is ability to procreate. All that stuff.

John Dehlin [00:22:50] Yeah.

Hyrum [00:22:50] And he's showing us, you know, things that say it. Sources. I mean, it was involved. I'm. And that's where I get to my point. That started me to doubt and started me investigating more about the church. Later on.

Doubts in Seminary and High School

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:23:07] This is ninth grade.

Hyrum [00:23:08] Ninth grade, yeah. The rest of my seminary career, I latched on literally almost like a leech to issues that I could see that kind of caused me to go, wait a second, that didn't make complete sense. The church is so black and white about some issues, but the gray areas that they don't want to answer. I would think to myself, why? And I'm not trying to prove the church wrong. I just wanted an answer.

Hyrum [00:23:37] I mean, it was one of my questions, but there were a lot of them. You know, we had our, was it 10th or 11th grade seminary teacher that showed us the logo, the new Jesus Christ logo. And he froze, frankly, said, I mean there was no trying to deny it. We are trying to make it so that the rest of the world sees that we want to emphasize Jesus Christ. We need to be more mainstream. And so whether again, whether that makes the church true or not, it's something that stuck into my mind and made me go, that's odd.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:24:09] It felt kind of disingenuous to you or a little bit too marketing y for what would be God's church.

Hyrum [00:24:15] Sure. And anyway, those are just things that I caught on to in seminary. I mean, and in my last year of seminary there was some weird things with the last person guest that we had on the show. He was a friend of mine who wasn't a member at the time we've had. And anyway, I went through things where seminary teachers are telling us don't hang out with non member friends. And I'm not trying to say this to again to get any listeners to think, wow, you know, the church isn't true. What I'm getting at is things that got to me, that made me feel, Wait a second.

Hyrum [00:24:48] Anyway, so I was told not to hang out with people that weren't members of the church. And then I even raised the question, well wait, I have these friends and what if I help convert them? Do I just not hang out with them? And so then his response back to me was, well, okay, but it's really who you spend most of your weekends with, you know, most of your time, your friends that you're really devoted to basically is what he was saying. They should be members of the church. And it got to me. And whatever his intentions were, it didn't, it didn't sit right with me. Anyway. Yeah.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:25:28] So let me ask you two quick questions.

Hyrum [00:25:30] No problem.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:25:31] Just to get both sides. Were there also moments in seminary of inspiration of yeah, you know, were you also at the same time building parts of your Testimony, even not a Mormon testimony, but just were you, was it enhancing your spirituality? Were you also having exciting things you learned about, you know, was there a counterbalance to that at all?

Hyrum [00:25:55] Yeah, I really enjoyed. Not that I thought that I was being better than the other religions or that I would one day be able to bash them, but I really enjoyed the thing that I thought, I'm getting more knowledge about this. I really am gaining an absolute understanding of the Bible. When the seminary teachers would help us understand what the Mormon Church professes that maybe this Bible scripture means, I would really enjoy that study and go, wow, I'm really getting a knowledge of maybe what things really mean. So I trusted it. That's what it was. I didn't know the church was true or have that testimony per se. I trusted it and I felt good that I was actually being taught something, was told it was right.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:26:55] Did you ever in high school try and take on the Moroni Challenge and kneel down, read the, read the Book of Mormon completely and have that, what I think is sometimes a disservice, but sort of the expectation that in one instance you read the book, you kneel down, you pray and then you get the answer. Did you ever even try that experiment, high school?

Hyrum [00:27:19] I wouldn't say I was motivated to need to do that. I was told that it was true and I didn't feel that I was banking off of somebody else's testimony, my parents testimony. I just felt I didn't need to know that. I knew, I felt that it was true. It was the only thing I knew.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:27:38] You didn't even consider an alternative?

Hyrum [00:27:40] Yeah, pretty much.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:27:41] No, that's, that's.

Hyrum [00:27:42] And I'd read the Book of Mormon many times through with my family, mind you. Every single morning I was waking up, people don't understand this about my family when they, we were waking up at 5 o' clock in the morning every morning as teenagers and our parents would drag us out and, and we would read from the Book of Mormon. So definitely I had a very ingrained whatever of the Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:28:13] Sure.

Hyrum [00:28:15] So like it's interesting that you said bring me up to when you were 19.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:28:21] Okay, wait, before you jump in, I have one last question about high school.

Hyrum [00:28:24] Okay.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:28:25] I grew up outside of Utah and there are all these sort of stereotypes of who I said. Sort of. Oh, I said it again. Sorry, that's a Monty Python reference. Remember the nights who say me?

Hyrum [00:28:35] Yeah, neat.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:28:36] Oh, I said it again.

Hyrum [00:28:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:28:38] Okay. So. So there's this sort of stereotype that, that Utah Mormons A lot of them don't really take the church seriously in high school and they party, but then they clean it all up and go on a mission kind of thing. And I don't want you to reveal what you're not comfortable, but like, you know, I was a hardcore. I never touched alcohol, never touched tobacco.

Hyrum [00:29:02] Good question, good question.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:29:03] So were you, were you sort of a social Mormon in high school or were you hardcore? How would you have characterized your, your behavior socially? As a matrix back to Mormonism?

Hyrum [00:29:14] That's a great question. I'm not exactly sure how much I'm going to be comfortable with what I'm about to tell you, but I'll avoid the things as much as I can. When I was in junior high, there was an issue with some members in the ward that were my best friends. And I was, it sounds like such a cliche word, but I was betrayed by them. It was quite serious, unexpected to say the least.

Hyrum [00:29:43] And so during high school I was, well, I don't know, kind of like what you would say a Mormon is outside of Utah would be where I had friends then that were. Not members of the church because I didn't basically those best friends that I had that were members of the ward had betrayed me or whatever. So I just stayed away from them. And my, basically my main group of friends, like I was saying before, were not Mormons. So I had to stand up for what I believed. And yet I didn't, I didn't do it. I took on a gutter mouth, I would swear. But maybe when they were inclined to check out some dirty things on the computer, I would say, and I would leave, literally, I remember that happening.

Hyrum [00:30:38] And also I would encourage them to go to seminary, even with all these lingering questions, which I jump back to. But my main question about the church was why the emphasis on the sexual things? And I'll get back to it in a second. But okay, so yeah, I stood up

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:30:53] for what I believe. You were alienated from sort of your, your ward. Sort of.

Hyrum [00:31:00] But I still went. And so, but I, yeah, I.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:31:02] But you felt almost like an outsider within your ward.

Hyrum [00:31:06] Absolutely.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:31:07] And, and that made you almost act as though you were a non utility kind of LDS person trying to represent the church well and be with my

Hyrum [00:31:15] other real friends who happen to be non Mormon. Yeah, okay.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:31:19] Okay, cool.

Hyrum [00:31:20] Okay, so 19 comes along. By that time I was in the musical project with the guy that was on last time and like he was saying pretty much that group of friends, almost all of them in that group little project that weren't members of the church ended up joining. Not necessarily because of me. Like he said, it was a girl. And I believe the other one. Even though this might harm his feelings if he were to hear it, I believe that the girl played a large part in the other guy's little conversion.

Hyrum [00:31:56] So they converted. They were baptized in the church at the age of 17 and 18. So anyway, the mission approached all of us and with me I had talked to my parents a little bit about things that I saw that were odd, mostly about their devotion to the church. I would kind of ask them, do you love me more than the church? Because sometimes when I do things that you, you know, I hang out with these other friends and you guys see the possibility that maybe they're influencing me. Whatever way you get so upset at me. And I just pretty much would put them to say, would you disown me if I left the church? But I really wasn't wanting to leave the church at all. At all.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:32:44] You wanted to parse their love and devotion?

Hyrum [00:32:47] Yeah. I had to know if it was conditional or not. Yeah. Anyway, the big occurrence, Huge. I'm going on a mission. I didn't want to go. I was frightened out of my mind that I wouldn't be able to learn another language. My brother had gone on a mission and I was afraid that I wouldn't live up to the kind of success that he said he had. And I just didn't want to go out of the country. And I just didn't want to leave for the two years. I was just frightened. I was a scared little boy. Just frightened.

Mission, Temple, and Deepening Disillusionment

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:33:24] You were called out of the US or before you'd received your call.

Hyrum [00:33:29] I'll go into it. I was called south of the border. I'm not exactly certain I want to say where.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:33:34] No, that's fine. That's fine.

Hyrum [00:33:36] But. Yes, but before the mission this is what happens. I had a question, the whole. Why can they tell me so much about things that, that are so odd? I thought, I think they're going into really detailed things and if that's how heaven really is, okay, I can accept it. But why go into such detail about some things if they won't tell me about the temple? That was a huge thing for me. I thought I'm going to go on a mission. Okay, but why are they so tight lipped about the temple? I didn't think that they were being cynical about it. I just sincerely wanted to know why nobody would say anything.

Hyrum [00:34:23] And so that was what started me. I got on the Internet And I tried to learn what was going on in the temple before you went. Yes. And obviously, and I don't know how much you're comfortable with me saying, but I was shocked. I was absolutely shocked, especially with the things that they were saying that my parents did previously that had been removed. I was just blown out of my mind and I couldn't. First I thought it was a lie.

Hyrum [00:34:57] So the second thing that I was doing was I got the church sources for the, you know, the, the Holy Temple. Read that. Of course it doesn't talk about anything, whatever details. So then I had a car, now I had a car. I was a 16 year old and I had my license. So I went to Barnes and Noble and I had them order in a book that now whatever I say, it's sacred for me, but Mysteries of Godliness. And I read it and that's pretty much the beginning of whatever. I asked my parents about it and their response to this day still surprises me.

Hyrum [00:35:47] It wasn't wrong for them and I don't blame them for anything. It's not their fault that I left Mormonism or whatever. But they just said their basic message was. My mother, understandably, just said, well, ask your dad. And I'm getting emotional about it now. Anyway, my father pretty much discouraged me from that sort of inquiry or inquiry. It just didn't

John Dehlin [00:36:22] believe.

Hyrum [00:36:22] And he voiced that he didn't believe I should be looking into that that way. So anyway, I.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:36:32] Did that make you feel angry?

Hyrum [00:36:33] Absolutely. Absolutely. Back then I was extremely upset.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:36:39] Why?

Hyrum [00:36:40] Because I was just. I was honestly just trying to, you know, ask something, why keep it from me? And then I found out. So then I went to people that I trusted, you know, the people that have raised me up in this. And I expected some sort of explanation, just honestly, you know, and just, just to make you.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:37:04] Are you talking about both the connections between masonry and the temple and the

Hyrum [00:37:08] history, everything that's in that book? You know, the things that have been changed, that have been taken out and the morbid things.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:37:17] We're a little more barbaric.

Hyrum [00:37:18] Exact. Exactly. The primitive, you know, archaic, you know, and the weird stuff. The weird, weird things, you know, the. And yeah, the technical questions. Why did it start out as just not even initiatories, but just this and then initiatories and full baths and just

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:37:38] the progression of the ceremony over time.

Hyrum [00:37:40] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:37:41] And how, and how did those trusted friends respond? Same way.

Hyrum [00:37:46] Well, I didn't. No, no, no. And some people could say this was a mistake on my part, but I Did not approach anybody else. I kind of curled up into a ball regarding that and said, never mind. You know, if this is a response that I get from people that I love, that love me, and apparently I think they have my best interest in mind, I better just not talk about this to anyone.

Hyrum [00:38:09] My goodness. I didn't expect. Expect that response. You know, they basically said, almost implied, that I had some sort of sinning motive to try to answer a question. So anyway, I felt shocked. And needless to say, I knew what was coming, more or less when I went into the temple. I mean, I envisioned it differently because I'd read it and pictured it in my own mind. And then when I went through. Through, gosh, I just.

Hyrum [00:38:42] I don't know. And see people that I loved. That was what was so hard, that I saw it as something so out of the ordinary, Just so out of the ordinary. And people that I loved dearly, that I trusted with my life and every drip of every word that comes out of my mouth. My grandmother, that I talked to almost every day, was. Was a temple worker and would go every day but Monday and Sunday to the temple.

Hyrum [00:39:07] And so these people can accept it. And I just said, well, whatever, you know, it's weird. And I specifically requested that I went to the Salt Lake temple for the first time because I wanted to see it live.

Hyrum [00:39:20] So then I went to the bountiful one with the group of friends. Now, yeah, they're baptized. So I went with them. One time in Bountiful. I just. I would literally get sick to my stomach. I would. Like in the temple, I would get sick. It was not a spiritual experience for me, and I wasn't trying to make it a bad thing. Anyway, got the mission call. Extremely frightened to go.

Hyrum [00:39:47] It was gonna be somewhere of foreign speaking and all that other stuff, But I went. I went anyway. I pushed it into the back of my mind, and I basically had the mindset of, well, I want it to piece together like they say it should, so I'm gonna do it. And I left and I worked my fanny off. I worked hard as a missionary, and I learned the language not only well, but I acquired somewhat of a. Not an accent that would have been. Been authentic for the country that I visited. But I guess. Well, I'm still asked sometimes by people if I'm from, I don't know, Argentina or somewhere.

Hyrum [00:40:29] But I worked hard, and not just on the language, but I really tried to help people come into the church. And I looked. I searched all kinds of Bible scriptures that I felt I Could bash with quite a few pastors, even though the need didn't come up too often. But I worked hard.

Hyrum [00:40:48] I got back off the mission, and I'm very touchy about how much I say about this, but I encouraged my family and I took part in something that was what I call now my charity project. I don't. Anyway, I did something that not a lot of people would do, and I was helping.

Hyrum [00:41:16] My motive on it was to try to keep making the church be true. I thought, well, if I didn't get the way that they want me to feel about it on the mission still, then I'll just try a charity thing and try even more. For three years, there was this charity project is what I'll keep calling it. Invested lots of money into it. And anyway, the.

Hyrum [00:41:45] Oh gosh, the individual that received the help, whatever, wasn't as receptive. And that didn't come out on my decision for all of it. But I didn't.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:42:01] For you as an active faith.

Hyrum [00:42:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:42:04] Sort of an act of desperation to say, let's. Let's apply the pure love of Christ, do something very charitable to help.

Hyrum [00:42:11] Exactly.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:42:12] And somehow maybe the perfect storm might converge to help jump start what you were trying to recover as a. As a strong testimony of the church. Maybe.

Hyrum [00:42:23] Yeah, I shouldn't. Even now I won't even in refer to what else it was. It was. It was a. It was something that took me very far out of my comfort zone for a long time. And I invested. And not only me, but my family, it was an investment and I wasn't putting conditions on it for Heavenly Father saying, you know, this better go right, or else this is the last thing. But as the story turns out, that was pretty much it.

Hyrum [00:42:54] I helped with Sunday school classes for quite a few years after the mission. Did not want to get married. Anybody that I dated that wanted to define the relationship, quote, unquote, that was a Mormon, I just backed away from because I knew that they might want a marriage in the temple. And I didn't feel comfortable going there, that's for sure.

Hyrum [00:43:18] So I just stayed away. But I didn't really talk to anybody other than my Heavenly Father. And literally, I mean, and I'm not saying this is going to happen to everyone, of course there's valid feelings for those who think the church is true, and they have their reasons. But I prayed and cried and sobbed and fasted and did my part to try to piece the puzzle together like they say it should.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:43:44] Let me just ask you real quick. Yeah, it must. It must have felt, you must have felt incredibly alone to be. To be so tormented and to be struggling so much and to not feel like you had anyone to talk to.

Hyrum [00:44:01] That's a good question. I had a support system and my family, they are such good people. And no, I wasn't alone. But as far as a doctrinal issue, yeah, yeah, I was. It was me and Heavenly Father, but I wasn't alone.

Hyrum [00:44:24] I had what I feel is the spirit and I. I was guided out of Mormonism and that was better for me. It ends up that the story goes, I. The high school sweetheart that never talked to about those issues and that I ran away from before the mission because I didn't want her to be, you know, wanting me. Right after the mission, she still came to me and wanted to be with me. And she was not from Utah, but she. So she had to stand up for what she believed in other places, in other states, but. And she went on a mission for a little while.

Hyrum [00:45:14] She had to. There were sicknesses or whatever, but. So she came back and. And we started to hang out. But I was cautious because of what I said before. And it came to a point where I finally told her, not in any detail, I just said. And I was sobbing to her, these are my issues, you know.

Hyrum [00:45:40] And I had studied quite a bit of church issues by then and I didn't go into them with her in detail. And so the story goes that she accepted me still and loves me for who I am. I loved her.

Hyrum [00:45:59] And yeah, she had me go to a. What I call a wannabe apologist. I met with a man in Syracuse who adamantly believes in the church had time where he didn't apparently or not very strongly. And he's back in it now, believes it. He says that he does because the geographical similarities in what he calls the Book of Mormon, the whatever, the Guatemala.

Hyrum [00:46:31] But I hit some of his excuses about what he has to rationalize away are just out there. And if he were to publish him, of course he'd be in trouble with the church hierarchy, but those sorts of visits to people didn't do it.

Hyrum [00:46:49] And I'd just been studying, but I couldn't ever buy books. My parents had thrown away the Mysteries of Godliness book. When I got home, I had every other book, but not that one. And I couldn't have books. I looked on the Internet for what I could find and people shunned the Tanners and they shunned.

Hyrum [00:47:11] What's his name, Ed Decker. And I shouldn't have have shunned The Tanners, but I did. I stayed away from their information for a while. But anyway, she did not shun me, my current wife. We got through it. We decided that we weren't going to get married for a little while and we kind of talked. And I remember one night when we understood we did want to get married was when we started talking about children and how to raise the kids.

Hyrum [00:47:47] And we were telling each other goodbye. We were saying, we'll find the right person for you. And we were kind of crying. But then when we said. When I told her to be a good mom to her children, it didn't work. It didn't come out. And she started bawling and we just realized, no, we haven't envisioned anyone else raising our children and our family. And we are the ones that we. We always pictured to be together.

Hyrum [00:48:09] So I did something and we did something. I don't regret it. I didn't see any value in it. It's almost like the Mormon Church doesn't see a value in a civil marriage. Now, I don't say any value. Whoa, I take that back.

Hyrum [00:48:30] I don't believe the same things that are believed. The celestial bindings that that is what makes a marriage and a family be together forever. I got married to my wife in the LDS temple and shortly thereafter, weeks, actually, I wrote my resignation letter, which ended up being 17 pages.

Hyrum [00:49:03] And I threatened with some legal threats and had an attorney write a cover letter. And I was out a week later. Sent me a letter that I find very spiritual. And it's not Satan. It's not Satan to me. I still love many things about the Mormon Church and yet they're not doctrinal and most of them have to do with the people.

Hyrum [00:49:33] I find the history fascinating and I find the social factors that we were talking about at the beginning also fascinating. I think that it's a really cool psychological question to see the following of the Mormon Church and the things that. That are what I call hidden from the general membership, things that are excused away by other people. I mean, they say they believe in being honest, but they don't act that way. And it's scary because we're getting a younger generation coming through. The Mormon Church could have what I believe they could have their out right now, their scapegoat. It's so perfect. They're putting in all these young authorities.

Reasons for Leaving the Church

Hyrum [00:50:17] They're putting in these young authorities. Have you seen it? They have the stake presidents and the bishops and even some of these regional reps are so young. They're not old anymore. And what I mean by that, I don't have anything against elderly people. They're wise and they know much more than me.

Hyrum [00:50:34] But they also are. You can't teach an old dog new tricks that they're very, you know, you have your Spencer W. Kid or, I'm sorry, your Ezra Taft Benson's who couldn't get away from some of the racist feelings that he obviously had. And these younger generations that are getting put in as the church leadership can change a lot of this. They can. And I'm not saying my membership is conditional and I would come back if it all changed. No, I would come back if I felt the church is true.

Hyrum [00:51:05] Definitely I'd be baptized again. I haven't really said that to too many people, but I just think if they say they believe in being honest and they don't do it, they're painting themselves in a corner instead of what they should be doing.

Hyrum [00:51:27] They're going to be not only seen as hypocrites, but they're really going to be hypocrites. So I don't know. It is so emotional for me. And it's not that I'm mad. I get more somber in my tone because I feel spiritual about it.

Hyrum [00:51:43] And yet I still go quite often to be with my wife to the sacrament meetings that she'll attend. And I love her and I encourage her to do what she feels is a spiritual experience for her. She's still in the church and whatever, I could lose listeners and credibility and whatever for that because, oh my gosh, I don't pull my wife out. How am I going to raise the kids? Which I talk about to her a lot. But it's her journey and it's our journey. You know, it's our journey. And for anyone to try to say, hey, Hyrum, you did the wrong thing by getting married and getting out of the church, you just disrespected and what were you doing?

Hyrum [00:52:27] It's not even their place to say. I don't respect them for even trying to pass judgment on what I did. I didn't go in the temple and make a scene. I wasn't smirking. I wasn't. I mean, sure, while I was waiting for my beautiful bride to come out, yeah, I was sitting in the little chair and I'd opened up to the eternal marriage section of the Doctrine and Covenants and just reading some of the. Through the polygamy or whatever. But also I felt this.

Hyrum [00:52:56] Well, and I told my wife this. I guess it's personal, but I'LL share it. The night of our. After we were married, the honeymoon night, I told her that I didn't ever feel good in the temple, except when I looked her in the eyes and knew that I was marrying her, her, for her. So anyway, and the decision was the

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:53:22] decision to go ahead and get marrying the temple, was it at least strongly, just to not spoil the event itself, the members from both sides of the family, so sort of to make it the best event possible, do it in a way that would make the most people feel good about the experience. Was that kind of what went into that decision?

Hyrum [00:53:42] Great question. I hope I only have to answer it once. And I knew it was coming. And so did she, because I was telling her that I was probably going to talk to you. Goodness, you know. No, it wasn't just for her. It was for me too. You know, I was getting out of the church. I knew it was coming.

Hyrum [00:54:06] You know, if the LDS church says a marriage in the temple is the culminating experience, I don't feel that I robbed it from them. Even though some people would say that I just, I was worthy to be there in many, I say, in all sense of the word, but that I didn't believe that Joseph Smith was what they say he was or whatever, that I don't believe their whitewashed story. I don't think that that was a requirement for me to be worthy to be there. But.

Hyrum [00:54:39] So no, it wasn't just for the family. It wasn't just for her. But would I have been okay with what they call a civil marriage? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, absolutely. The photography that could have come out of that. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:00] So.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:55:00] So it sounds like for you it was almost closure. It was almost like a goodbye to the church in a way.

Hyrum [00:55:07] It was one of those things. Yeah, it was a step towards closure, which sounds kind of scary. And I think that my wife, hearing that, could feel somewhat bad at first, but no, for me. Yeah, it was a step towards being finished with it in that phase. Yeah. Yep.

Life and Spirituality After Leaving

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:55:28] And how, how do you feel spiritually now? I mean, do you tell us about your spiritual journey? Whether you've, you know, evolved, progressed, strengthened, weakened? Do you feel closer? You know, a lot. It's very common for people who leave the church to not just abandon Mormonism, but abandon beliefs in God and Christ all the together. Not because I'm saying that they're sinister, but because there's so much devotion and yes, it's such a charge religion that they feel so disillusioned, they just throw it all out. So where, where Are you sort of on that spiritual journey or spectrum?

Hyrum [00:56:08] Interesting that you asked the question.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:56:11] Well, and just say whatever you're comfortable saying.

Hyrum [00:56:14] No, no, I understand. I don't want to lie here. Or I don't want someone to think I'm lying. I want to be able to let you understand and whoever is listening that I'm trying to be as sincere as I can. I don't know how else to get this across.

Hyrum [00:56:32] I do. I feel so spiritual. I feel. I mean, I have literally had some of the most spiritual experience experiences ever. Now that I'm able to actually deal with myself and not only be honest with myself. A lot of people could say, well, that's all psychology, too. That doesn't mean the church is false. That you have a testimony that it is and you just being honest to yourself, that's what's making you feel that way. Could be.

Hyrum [00:57:05] But no, I've literally had some amazingly spiritual experiences that I feel are divine and. And some. And that's a whole question that I'd probably go into on my podcast is a lot of people say, well, why can't I? Can't you leave the church and leave it alone? You always come back and they kind of have that persecution complex that makes the church true because you keep coming back and fighting against it and must be true. Then my dorky little podcast is not fighting against the church. How many people I'm reaching is so minuscule, but.

Hyrum [00:57:38] And I haven't called anybody back from the place that I served a mission and told them, hey, it's a farce leave. So basically, what I'm doing, it isn't just for me. I feel like I want to be there for other people that I didn't have on that journey.

Hyrum [00:57:58] My goodness, if I could have had someone like you, John, you know, just to talk about some of the issues. Frankly, I was craving that and then I got the smackdown. Such a cold shoulder from people that I understand why they did it. But goodness, you know, so I want to be there for people that.

Hyrum [00:58:20] And it's not like I want to lead everyone away from Mormonism. Please understand that I know that it's a culture, but I don't. You know, my goodness, my wife is still a member of the church. You know, I don't care to force everyone out, but I'm going to help you along the way if that's what you want to do. You know, I'll offer any advice or support that I can.

Hyrum [00:58:51] So, yeah, I do feel I can't. Just one thing I Want to tell everyone that's listening to this. I cannot imagine how to describe and do it justice the feeling that I felt when I received that letter. My goodness. You know, right now I just feel, wow, just wonderful about it. I feel good. And it's not Satan, and it's not like I want to drink alcohol till I'm drunk out of my gourd and I want to take up smoking and I want to dump my morals out the window. No, I just feel good because I know I did the right thing. Not just because I feel vindicated. But, yeah, I know the church is not true, and I had to act on that. For me,

Reflecting on What Could Have Been Different

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [00:59:53] looking back now, can you. And this is totally hypothetical, theoretical, but if certain people or if certain things had been done differently, can you. Can you imagine things that have been done differently or ways that people could have acted that might have changed you a little bit and oriented you less towards leaving and more towards staying?

Hyrum [01:00:28] This might sound doomsday or prophetic. No, no, it might have taken longer. But sincerely, I do believe. I don't see necessarily the doomsday or the downfall of the Mormon Church, although truth does prevail. And it is a frightening thing that the church is doing right now. It is not being honest, and it is. Is not what it says it is.

Hyrum [01:01:05] And I would have seen it later. You know, the Internet is out there and I would have seen it. I would have felt horrible about it, and I don't know how what would have happened to my wife. And I see much more of a horrible outcome. Uh, oh, the cops are going outside. We might hear some sirens.

Hyrum [01:01:25] Anyway, I see much more of a horrible outcome that we would have happened if I would have come across those things before that, that binding contract that I made with my wife. You know, my goodness, what if my marriage was based on the fidelity that I thought I had with an organization, an organization that I thought I knew? You know, you see all these couples out there in Mormonism now where one couple goes X and sure, my wife and I, I'm not gonna deny it, she's open as can be regarding the issues that I have and that I want to share, but she's very strong and she doesn't put up with things that she feels about.

Hyrum [01:02:16] And we go through hell a lot of times. I just can't imagine, though, if it would have been later on in life. So the truth is out there, and the truth is that the Mormon Church is not what it says it is. My goodness. You know, and it's sad. It's Tragic. It's just not the history that they say, you know, that's what's so odd to me.

Hyrum [01:02:43] In the United States, we look at those other civilizations and, and I don't know, I've been told that, like, what is it? Japan or China in their history books and especially Russia. Like, sometimes some of these other countries, they'll kind of edit and not tell their students the whole story and kind of make everyone else out to be villainous. And sure, America propaganda or sense. And America does that too, but not to a degree you can't, because it's a free society and we understand.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [01:03:15] Yeah.

Hyrum [01:03:15] You know what? Thomas Jefferson, he penned the Declaration of Independence. All men are created equally. But guess what? Right down in the bottom of the. What's it called in the Jefferson Memorial in D.C. you can read there. He had slaves. They aren't trying to hide it. In fact, they're putting it out there, you know, for debate, and they're saying, you know what? We'll have to deal with that issue. We'll have to resolve it. It doesn't make what we have now horrible. And it's not that that means that everyone has to resign their U.S. citizenship. But.

Church History and Honest Faith Questions

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [01:03:55] So let me. So let me. I mean, you mentioned. And I don't want to get in debate. I mean, the. Hear you.

Hyrum [01:04:02] No, no express but ask.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [01:04:04] So I mean, you know, I've read in the Ensign where it mentions, you know, Joseph putting a peep stone in a hat. And I've. I've read in the Ensign where it talks about.

Hyrum [01:04:14] And let me interrupt you. You're probably much more educated on a lot of these issues. I mean, you were mentioning to me before the podcast of a couple of books that I, my goodness, you know, I'm gonna go get. And I didn't even know they existed. So, you know, I'm just.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [01:04:26] But yeah, I was just gonna say, I don't, you know, you. You mentioned that in the Lincoln or Jefferson Memorial that it was written kind of very small in small print somewhere that he did on slaves. And.

Hyrum [01:04:39] Oh, it's a small print. But. Yeah.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [01:04:41] And if you, and if you look at how some most kids are educated about Thomas Jefferson, they kind of hear a lot of the good and maybe not so much of the bad, although that may be changing in recent times. But, but I, you know, I, I would say just as a matter of balance, that you can read in the Ensign where the church sort of acknowledges issues with the origins of the Book of Abraham or, or, you know, the, the a little more Description around the events of. Of the Navu Expositor and Joseph's martyrdom or the peep stone in the hat.

Hyrum [01:05:18] I. I credit where it's due. Yeah, they. They'll put in things. But have you noticed the sections that they're in? They're in the I have a section or I have a question section and it's not anything official by the brethren. And I think. I don't know, my, my malicious little comment on it is. I don't know, is that really in there for the general membership or is that in there to appease people like me and the apologist that you've got to say something, right? You know, I don't know. I don't know.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [01:05:48] So it is. Some things are being dealt with lightly, but certainly not in a broad sort of mass. Mass communicated sort of way.

Hyrum [01:05:59] Let's put it this way. There is a problem when all these people, these older. I don't mean to say older, but these apostles that are. Whether they're stringent in their ways or whatever, gosh, when, when their continuous actions are hiding, you know, they just hide. They want to hide. They do. They want to hide the information. I mean, the. Just that they vault it all up and people can't have access. And you aren't the first person that told me that the history vaults, of course they don't let people in there. I mean, you can go on the. You can go on the LDS stuff website and see the little rules that you would have to follow if you were going to gain access to go study in some of. Just the ones that don't have any of the cool information. And I don't know, literally not as

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [01:06:55] candid as you'd like, not as open.

Hyrum [01:06:57] Mmm, that's an understatement. Yeah, I. Oh, gosh. Well, put it this way.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [01:07:05] Too much control and protection of the information.

Hyrum [01:07:08] Let me, let me ask you a question on that. Do you see that a person in Guatemala, maybe that you had influenced on your mission, John, do you see them having any sort of access to a lot of the information that the church might vaguely put out there? I mean, what if they had questions? I don't believe that they would be able to even find it. That's definitely not what's published in Spanish. They don't put it out there for the general membership. That's my point. When they have published things on the very small issues that they have, it's been there. I believe at this moment, maybe that'll change that. It's just to appease the People who need it, the general membership all over the world, there's no way that they could get their hands on that information.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [01:08:06] Yeah. You know, I contemplate all the time the fact that blacks are being baptized every day, not, not knowing the pre 1978 history.

Hyrum [01:08:18] And it's unfair.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [01:08:20] And it's, it's got a. It's got to be a dynamic that at some point they find out from neighbors and that they reach this sort of crisis where they ask, why wasn't I told this before?

Hyrum [01:08:31] That's the painting themselves in the corner, John. I believe that's them painting themselves in the corner, like I said. Okay, yeah, maybe a sixth grader isn't told about the Thomas Jefferson having slaves. Okay, fine. But an adult, an inquiring adult, that, yeah, before they are baptized, I think it would be just fine for them to be confronted with that information and do what they may with it. You know, at least that's honest. At least that's honest.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [01:09:04] Yeah. Well, I definitely share a desire to see more candor and more openness about our history. Most people don't know. Most people don't know the, the basic mechanics by which the Book of Mormon was translated. Most people don't know how many wives Joseph had.

Hyrum [01:09:24] Right. Let me put it this way.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [01:09:26] The true events behind his martyrdom.

Hyrum [01:09:29] Let me put it this way.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [01:09:30] There's a lot of very basic events that people don't know. Go ahead.

Hyrum [01:09:33] Sorry to interrupt you. I just had a thought before it flees me. I'm not going to tack on. I would be baptized if they did this or I would stop my podcast if they did this. But isn't it ironic? Just picture right now, Jesus. Okay, you remember when it's a common thing in the Mormon whatever. The only time he ever got angry, you know, was when they were selling stuff in the temple, which is weird. Why do they rent out the stupid stuff in the temple that you have to put on and all that? Why do they, you know, rent it out and there's money changers in our temple.

Hyrum [01:10:04] Anyway, when he got upset and he was overturning the tables and got upset that they were doing things in his father's house that they shouldn't have been doing, do you think that later on in his sermons or in his encounters with anyone, any inquiring anybody, even if it's a Pharisee, do you think if they came to him and said, jesus, I really want to know if you are the Messiah, that is the Messiah in the Old Testament, the promised Savior of the Jews, I Just have this hang up. I want you to answer for me. Did you get angry over in that temple? I mean, my goodness, nobody overturns tables in the Jewish temple.

Hyrum [01:10:52] That's defaming the temple. I'm not trying to be, not trying to trap you in a corner corner, Jesus. I'm not trying to, I just, I just want to know kind of what, what the situation was. Because of course, I mean, of course the word would have been going around that he did something like that, you know, and so what do you think Jesus would answer? Do you think he would lie? Do you think he would hide the information? Or do you think he would honestly explain the circumstances, face up to what that person was asking and let them make the decision whether they were going to follow him or not?

John Dehlin [01:11:27] Right.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [01:11:28] Anyway, yeah, you want to, you want to think that Jesus would be completely candid and, and not apologetic or make excuses, but just say, here's how, or lie, here's why I did it, or

Hyrum [01:11:40] lie and deny that it happened? Of course he wouldn't do that. And, and that's just it. If it's going to be, or if it is the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, then we're not talking about making excuses and saying, well, the people can be imperfect. The people can be imperfect. Nuh. Wait a second. If the church is true and it is the church of Jesus Christ, we're in a dilemma here. It's going to have to officially act as Jesus Christ would. I mean, if he's really up there directing this thing, he's going to have it be directed in the same direction as if he would if he were down here. Right.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [01:12:20] Okay, but. Okay, but let's. From the standpoint of, of the Bible for those who.

Hyrum [01:12:26] Oh, sure, Bible.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [01:12:27] Okay, let's just, let's just sort of go through a couple stories. I mean, okay, you know, no, apparently Noah got drunk in the Bible, David not only committed adultery, the best, she got some murdered. Murdered. If you go to the New Testament, Judas, who is an apostle, betrayed Christ.

Hyrum [01:12:48] Yeah, yeah, Peter. Yeah.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [01:12:50] Denied Christ three times. Judas committed suicide. You have, you have stories of the apostles bickering and arguing between each other over who Christ loved the most. You had doubting Thomas. I mean, one of the things that I think makes the Bible so beautiful is that it's just so honest and candid about the frailties and the weaknesses of men. So I guess I'm kind of drilling, pushing back a little bit on your statement that if it were God's church, it would run a Little bit more smoothly when biblically, that's sort of not necessarily support. According to the Bible, the church and its leaders can withstand all sorts of frailties and missteps, including murder and suicide, and an outright denial of divinity, and still maintain its divinity. You know what I'm saying?

Hyrum [01:13:48] Yeah. And I feel that that would be some sort of the direction of an acceptance, acceptable answer in the future that the church could give to kind of deal with this issue on the onset with somebody that just wants to ask the question. Although I go back to whatever the conclusion that I've made of the church not being true and my response to what you're saying there is, again, I go with Jesus.

Hyrum [01:14:23] When Jesus had questions from the Pharisees where they tried to confuse him or get something out of him that was wrong, when he referred back to passages in the Bible, he didn't contradict himself. There wasn't things that he was doing and the way he was leading this church or that church that were in conflict with what it should have been.

Hyrum [01:15:01] And now you can say, well, okay, but then he left, and he left it in the hands of men. And they aren't, what the Mormon Church would say, half God divine, so they can goof up and our church has goofed.

Hyrum [01:15:18] Well, I kind of take the collective puzzle here. If the foundation of this church isn't what they say it is, and they say that Jesus is up there right now, right this very moment, directing this church and only this one, and through this one, it is going to be saved.

Hyrum [01:15:39] He didn't build it, so how he can be directing it now, it wasn't even built on a foundation that they say it is. And so if it's him, I mean, that's what it comes down to. I know that people, people make mistakes.

Hyrum [01:15:55] The central issue is here. If it's him directing this one, then its foundations are going to be right. They're going to be what he would have done. And it's not even what they say it is now. And it wasn't back then. It wasn't founded on.

Hyrum [01:16:21] I don't want to use the word lies, because that's so, but it wasn't founded on deceptions of a man. For from the onset it wasn't and it wouldn't be now. So that's my opinion on it. I just clapped my hands. That was the weird sound. But I don't know, John. I know I get the take from the Mormons and it's a debate and people feel really good about where they're at and they just can't be taken out of their comfort zone.

Hyrum [01:16:55] That's just something the ex Mormons, I guess, have over the Mormons. They've already been in that comfort zone. And a lot of them aren't having worse morals. It's not like they left to do something bad. They just know something that ended up being right.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [01:17:13] I hear you. I really appreciate, I appreciate your willingness to be so open and candid.

Hyrum [01:17:20] And you do. I really respect. I mean, and you put up valid things that I need to study more on. And if the church is true, and I've just completely ignored what you're saying, that men can be erroneous and that all the apostles in the New Testament screwed up and they're fighting with each other. And I don't take that into account, saying that this church could be the same if I'm just ignoring that. And, and I screw up and they throw me into outer darkness for the rest of eternity. My goodness. You know, that's a serious thing. I don't. I understand that perspective. I get how serious that could be, you know?

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [01:18:01] Well, what. I mean, I just have to say that what allows me to even have an attempt to believe in Christ and in God is. Is in the New Testament version of God. And the compassion that we learn about in the New Testament about Jesus.

Hyrum [01:18:22] I respect that, John, literally. I'm not saying that as lip service. The New Testament Christ, I mean, he did that little. I wouldn't say what it was for whatever reasons, but my little charity project, I mean, Christ was doing that 24 7. I mean, the man was probably doing it in his sleep. He was just, you know, he's the kind of thing that everyone should aspire to be, you know.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [01:18:48] Yeah. And what I'm getting at is be it Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, devout Mormon, Jack Mormon, anti Mormon.

Hyrum [01:18:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [01:18:58] I'm looking forward to that level of compassion with faith.

Hyrum [01:19:02] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [01:19:03] As we're each trying to make the journey that we feel good.

Hyrum [01:19:06] The end goal. And that's just it. Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [01:19:09] So I'll make. I'll. I'll be the first to say I don't. I don't stand in judgment to condemn.

Hyrum [01:19:13] Oh, yeah. Oh, gosh, me either. Me either. And I'm not. Yeah.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [01:19:19] And my personal. My personal strongest desire is just to see that we can talk openly and honestly share our views. Have a fortune.

Hyrum [01:19:30] You know, if I was evangelist right now, I'd jump up and. Amen, brother. Hallelujah. Yeah.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [01:19:36] So in the spirit of that, I just want to thank you for, For Coming.

Hyrum [01:19:40] Thank you. On Mormon stories, one little seed I want to plant if I could. Really quick. You said that you, you know, you. You're focusing on that New Testament version of. Of whatever. So my little goofy seed that I would like to plant as a question. Mormonism definitely is taking a lot from the Old Testament. Tons. Does it need to be there? Did it need to come back or go away with. With Christ, they take all sorts of stuff from the Old Testament. Should our focus be there on the New Testament or all of it as a whole? That's a. It's a good thing to think about. But anyway.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [01:20:18] Yeah, absolutely.

Hyrum [01:20:19] But anyway. Sorry.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [01:20:20] Well, very good.

Hyrum [01:20:21] Well, thank you so much, John.

John Dehlin [01:20:23] Oh, well, thank you.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [01:20:24] I. I look forward to the, to the work that you guys are doing.

Hyrum [01:20:28] You too.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [01:20:29] We're. We're taking different approaches, but I think. I think one thing that unites us is again, a desire for openness and candor and for truth.

Hyrum [01:20:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [01:20:39] In whatever form to kind of. To emerge the conversation.

Hyrum [01:20:44] And if you get any flack from any of the listeners of the program that we run, email me and I'll give them hell. There's another pun.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [01:20:55] Yeah, absolutely.

Hyrum [01:20:56] No, they shouldn't criticize either, but thanks so much. My goodness, it's the wee hours of the morning and thanks, John. You know, thank you. I'm glad there's people out there like you. I don't. All I have is respect. If we can have you on anytime, you're more than invited. And I don't want to put this off the record, but any help that I can be in your media projects that you're doing, the slideshows or just suggestions for feedback, let me know, man. Seriously.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [01:21:28] Absolutely. And likewise. Thanks, Hiram.

Hyrum [01:21:31] Alright. Thanks you. Thanks you. What the. Oh, goodness. I can't even. Yeah, let's go to bed. Hey, thanks, John.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [01:21:38] All right. Hi, I'm. We'll. I'll just close off and again think thank the listeners for tuning in to Mormon stories.

Hyrum [01:21:45] Yep.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [01:21:45] Feel free to email us with your feedback on this podcast or other ones@mormonstoriesgmail.com. we also have a website, mormonstories.org and Hiram, feel free to plug. Plug your stuff as well.

Hyrum [01:22:01] Who cares? Yeah, the church is not true dot com. Whatever. Hey, thanks, John. Thank you so much.

Closing Thoughts and Farewell

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [01:22:07] All right. Hey, go, go get some sleep. And you guys take care.

Hyrum [01:22:11] You too. We'll talk to you later, man.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [01:22:12] Thanks, Harm.

John Dehlin [01:22:13] Yep.

Hyrum [01:22:13] Bye.

John Dehlin (Mormon Stories) [01:22:14] Bye. The depth of your dreams, the height of your wishes.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.