Introducing Katie and Matt Todd

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is February 7, 2026, and today we have a super exciting interview. We are interviewing a father and his daughter, both raised LDs.

John Dehlin [00:00:16] And the hook or the topic for today is what happens when an adult child or a Mormon teen, Mormon young adult decides to leave the church. What's that like for a parent? What's that like for the teen adult child?

John Dehlin [00:00:35] And how do they navigate it gracefully and skillfully, probably with some mistakes such that in the end, maybe their relationship is even strengthened by that entire process. Definitely not ruined. And that is what we're gonna be covering today. It's part of this bridge building theme that we've been trying to build on for the past year or so where we want to interview believing Mormons, active Mormons, faithful Mormons, and make sure that we're not just focusing on ex Mormons and deconstruction, but instead are providing you content that helps build bridges, that helps unite families, heal relationships, and that can bring our families and our communities together instead of more polarization and divisiveness.

John Dehlin [00:01:26] Please subscribe to this channel if you find this content valuable. We're like 3,000 away from hitting our 300,000 mark on YouTube. It would be really helpful to reach that 300,000 mark, not just for the algorithms, but because it helps other people want to come on the show when we have 300,000 subscribers. And it'll let you know when new episodes are coming out. So please subscribe. Thanks to our donors for making all this possible. And without any further ado, I want to welcome to Mormon Stories Podcast, Matt Todd. Hey, Matt.

Matt Todd [00:02:00] Hello.

John Dehlin [00:02:00] Thanks for coming.

Matt Todd [00:02:02] My pleasure to be here.

John Dehlin [00:02:03] I assume you're the dad.

Matt Todd [00:02:04] I'm the dad.

John Dehlin [00:02:05] Okay. And joining us also is Katie Todd. I guess you're the daughter.

Katie Todd [00:02:12] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:02:14] All right. I just want to say thank you both so much, and I don't know if this is going to hurt your feelings, Katie, but thank you especially Matt, because I think you represent the believer in. Is that right?

Matt Todd [00:02:26] That's right. Yep.

John Dehlin [00:02:27] And it's no small thing in 2026 for a believing Mormon to be willing to come on Mormon Stories podcast. Right.

Matt Todd [00:02:38] You know, I'm happy to be here. I just. I love and respect Katie and I'm sure I wouldn't be here if it. If it weren't for her. But I, you know, I'm happy to be here.

John Dehlin [00:02:52] Wait a minute. You wouldn't be here just for me.

Matt Todd [00:02:55] I wouldn't be here just for you.

John Dehlin [00:02:56] Oh, my goodness. Well, I'll try not to be heard about that. No, that makes sense. Well, thanks for doing it. And yeah, I think that I am predicting that your love for Katie is going to shine through and be inspiring to a lot of people today. So thank you for that.

Matt Todd [00:03:11] Yeah, thank you.

John Dehlin [00:03:13] And Katie, it's no small thing as well that you're willing to come on here, be so vulnerable, and to share your story as well. So thank you.

Katie Todd [00:03:21] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:03:23] Anything y' all want to say before we jump in? Should we just jump in?

Matt Todd [00:03:26] Nothing in particular? Yeah, let's go.

John Dehlin [00:03:28] Okay. So let's start maybe with you, Matt, if that's okay. I guess my first question for you is, were you raised LDs? And, you know, what was your Mormon upbringing life? Just really, what was it like? Just really briefly?

Matt's LDS Upbringing and Background

Matt Todd [00:03:43] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I was born. My parents were both members of the ch. My dad's a convert to the church. My mom comes from pioneer ancestry. And yeah, I think I was kind of raised in my young years there. Pretty typical LDS upbringing and background.

John Dehlin [00:04:08] Are you comfortable sharing what city, state, high school kind of thing?

Matt Todd [00:04:11] Yeah. So I was born in Rexburg.

John Dehlin [00:04:14] Okay.

Matt Todd [00:04:14] Lived there until I was five years old.

John Dehlin [00:04:16] Yeah. Okay.

Matt Todd [00:04:17] And then we bounced around a little bit throughout the country.

John Dehlin [00:04:20] Okay. And high school was where.

Matt Todd [00:04:22] So I did my first year of high school in South Carolina, and then we moved to Provo and I finished my high school in Provo.

John Dehlin [00:04:31] Okay. Does that make you a bulldog or what?

Matt Todd [00:04:33] Temp view.

John Dehlin [00:04:34] Okay.

Matt Todd [00:04:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:35] So BYU after that?

Matt Todd [00:04:37] Yeah. So my dad. The reason we came to Provo was my dad taught at byu.

John Dehlin [00:04:43] Oh, what did he teach?

Matt Todd [00:04:44] So he taught mechanical and manufacturing engineering.

John Dehlin [00:04:47] Oh, okay. So you attended BYU with your dad as a professor?

Matt Todd [00:04:55] As an undergrad. And then I stayed there for law school as well.

John Dehlin [00:04:58] Okay. But you decided not to become an engineer.

Matt Todd [00:05:02] Yeah, I did. Well, I did do. My undergrad degree is chemical engineering.

John Dehlin [00:05:07] Oh, wow.

Matt Todd [00:05:08] I did an engineering degree and then my dad was actually part of the reason why I ended up going to law school.

John Dehlin [00:05:15] Okay.

Matt Todd [00:05:15] So.

John Dehlin [00:05:16] And you do patent stuff, so.

Matt Todd [00:05:18] I do.

John Dehlin [00:05:18] I do patent stuff. So I'm sure there was some connection between getting a science based undergrad to then help you be a really good patent attorney.

Matt Todd [00:05:27] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:05:28] Okay, cool. That's fun. So I'm assuming that did you end up doing the typical meet your fiance at BYU and temple marriage kind of thing.

Meeting, Marriage, and Family Life

Matt Todd [00:05:39] So we actually met in high school. Senior year in high school at Temp View. We had an English class together and we just. We met each other There. We went on three dates that senior year in high school, and I didn't really get to know her really, until through letters. When I was on my mission, we exchanged letters, a lot of letters. Every other week. I would write her, she would write me, and I think that's where I really got to know her.

John Dehlin [00:06:12] Okay, so you got home, got married relatively quickly.

Matt Todd [00:06:17] So within a year. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:18] Okay.

Matt Todd [00:06:19] A year to get married.

John Dehlin [00:06:20] Temple. Temple marriage.

Matt Todd [00:06:21] Yep. Temple marriage.

John Dehlin [00:06:22] Oh, Provo Temple.

Matt Todd [00:06:23] Provo Temple that no longer exists.

John Dehlin [00:06:25] The little dreidel that you spin. The dreidel Temple. You know what I'm talking about there.

Matt Todd [00:06:30] I know what you're talking about.

John Dehlin [00:06:31] Katie's like, what is he talking about?

Katie Todd [00:06:34] I think I remember.

John Dehlin [00:06:36] You've seen the photos.

Katie Todd [00:06:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:37] Okay. Okay. All right. So that's weird. It doesn't exist anymore.

Matt Todd [00:06:42] It's strange. It's strange to think about. It's not there anymore.

John Dehlin [00:06:46] Yeah. Yeah. When I was in the mtc, we would visit. That's where we would do the endowments each week. Yeah, Yeah. I fell asleep once during. In the mtc, I was so exhausted. During one of the weeks that we did, you know, did the ceremony, I fell asleep, especially at snow. I started snoring, and all my companions were laughing at me. Anyway.

Matt Todd [00:07:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:09] That's a memory in the Provo Temple that didn't. No longer exist. Okay, Sorry, Squirrel. So, all right, so temple marriage. Provo Temple. This is sounding like a very Mormon story, and. Yeah. So how many children did you and your wife end up having?

Matt Todd [00:07:27] We've got three daughters. Katie's our oldest.

John Dehlin [00:07:30] Okay, so, all right, so once you graduate from BYU law school, did you stick around?

Matt Todd [00:07:39] So we built a home in Highland after graduating from high school. We liked Utah County. We wanted to stay in Utah County. My first kind of real job at a school. I worked for a law firm that's based up in Salt Lake, but we liked Utah county, so we built a home there on the edge of Utah county, as close as we could get to Salt Lake. And I would do the commute up to Salt Lake every day.

John Dehlin [00:08:06] Highland and Alpine's just such a special area in so many ways, but to get there early was kind of a good move, right?

Matt Todd [00:08:13] Yeah, Yeah. I mean, I don't know that we could afford to be there now. I mean, we've been there 20, 22, 23 years. Yeah, it's been good to us.

John Dehlin [00:08:23] Yeah. I love Highland, Alpine, Lehigh. Okay, so, yeah, let's bring Katie in now. So, Katie, what are your earliest memories of being raised in your Family. As a Mormon, That's a good question.

Katie's Childhood Faith and Religious Routine

Katie Todd [00:08:38] I think I feel like my dad would remember more than I would, but I definitely remember we did family home evening every Monday. We did scripture study every morning. Tried to. Yeah, I think it was pretty much every morning. Like, I remember setting aside, like, probably 20 minutes before we'd go to school and we would read the scriptures and then have family prayer. I always went to all the mutual activities and then, you know, the church on Sundays, which was three hours at the time. I remember, like going into young women's. I was very passionate about getting my, like, young women's medallion, so I got that pretty, pretty early on. I think I was 14.

Matt Todd [00:09:27] You got it young?

Katie Todd [00:09:28] Yeah.

Matt Todd [00:09:28] Do you remember that?

Katie Todd [00:09:29] Yeah, yeah. I think something that is a little unique is I went to like an LDS based private school from kindergarten through 12th grade.

John Dehlin [00:09:39] Oh, wow. Like a charter school kind of thing?

Katie Todd [00:09:42] Kind of, yeah.

Matt Todd [00:09:43] It's actually a private school, not a charter school, but yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:46] What's it called?

Matt Todd [00:09:47] American Heritage.

John Dehlin [00:09:48] Where is that?

Matt Todd [00:09:49] It's right across the street from the Timpanogos temple.

John Dehlin [00:09:53] Oh, and so let me, let me ask Matt really quick. What made you want to put your kid in American Heritage?

Matt Todd [00:10:01] It was my wife's doing.

John Dehlin [00:10:03] Ok, sorry. I shouldn't have assumed.

Matt Todd [00:10:05] And she could tell the story better than I could, but she somehow became acquainted with the school and just fell in love with it. And we love the school to this day. I mean, I just love spending time down there. It's just a wonderful environment, wonderful teachers, wonderful faculty administration. We just love the environment. And I think she felt like, I want my kids to go here if there's any way I can do it. I think that's kind of how that came to be.

John Dehlin [00:10:37] Was part of it an interest in do they integrate faith with education?

Matt Todd [00:10:41] They do. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:43] So you wanted. And I'm guessing there's some of the sort of constitutions inspired founders were Inspired America. Katie's nodding yes. And also. So I think I'm zoning in. I think I'm tracking like it's a combination of faith and country and Mormonism all rolled into one. Was that part of it?

Matt Todd [00:11:07] Yeah, I think so. And Katie would know best because she actually went through their curriculum. But yeah, that's my impression.

American Heritage School and Early Questions

John Dehlin [00:11:12] Okay. All right. So Katie, talk about American Heritage. I mean, I'll have to say I've had several people reach out to me saying that they grew up going to American Heritage, meaning that there's at least a certain percentage of people that end up leaving the church who Go to American Heritage. I don't know if there's a connection, but they want to tell me, I went to American Heritage as if it's, like, something important to them that they wanted to communicate. So, Katie, what's it like?

Katie Todd [00:11:42] Yeah, I actually loved it. I loved being there. I did leave. I wanted to try public school, so I left American Heritage and went to public school for, like, half of the academic year in second grade, and I didn't like it, So I wanted to go back.

Katie Todd [00:11:59] Back to American Heritage. It has, like, especially going into high school, there's smaller class sizes, and so you have a really good group of friends. And I feel like the teachers are very involved, and they. I don't know. Like, you just develop these close relationships with teachers and then also with your friends.

Katie Todd [00:12:22] So overall, I think it was definitely a very positive experience. Some. I think some things are a bit of a culture shock to people to hear about, because we would start, like, a lot of classes with a devotional and a prayer and, like, a hymn.

Katie Todd [00:12:36] And so sometimes when I tell people that they were, like, what? Like, they didn't understand how that would even be implemented. But it was.

John Dehlin [00:12:43] I mean, BYU does that. Oftentimes. BYU starts a Division 1 university, often has professors start classes with prayers. So you just started young.

Katie Todd [00:12:53] Yeah, yeah. And we did have uniforms, and they. They were pretty strict about the uniform dress code. I feel like it got more lenient as I got older. I don't know if that's an actual accurate statement.

John Dehlin [00:13:08] Like, the school got less intense, I think.

Katie Todd [00:13:10] So, like, in, like, we weren't allowed to wear ankle socks when I was in, like, middle school and elementary school. And then they kind of went away with that. Even, like, we couldn't have more than one, like, bracelet or hair tie on our wrist, and our nails, like, couldn't be painted, like, cool colors. They had to be, like, clear or, like, pink.

John Dehlin [00:13:31] And did you feel like there were religious pillars or foundations for those types of rules?

Katie Todd [00:13:38] Yes, I think they. They would kind of argue that it's like, you show, like, your faith and devotion in, like, little things. So they're like, it's not actually about this little thing that we're doing. It's just the bigger message and principle that is, like, being enforced kind of

John Dehlin [00:13:55] obedience culture a little bit.

Katie Todd [00:13:57] Ye.

John Dehlin [00:13:58] Okay. Not to make that sound pernicious. I think rules can be very helpful.

Katie Todd [00:14:03] Right, of course.

John Dehlin [00:14:04] Yeah, of course. Okay. So. All right. So, I mean, most of us who are Mormon, growing up, you know, three hours of church on Sunday, which is What a lot of us grew up with. Plus young men's, young women's during the week. And then once we're in high school seminary, like, that's a lot of religious instruction. But you had that on steroids because you're getting extra religious instruction from K through 8, right? In Utah.

Katie Todd [00:14:35] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:14:36] And also really quick, before I go there, there's patriotism. What was that? Like, just the whole Constitution founders America.

Katie Todd [00:14:43] Yeah. I think it was introduced to me so young, and I didn't question it for such a long time that I didn't think much of it. I think there was definitely, like a whitewashing of history, which.

John Dehlin [00:14:56] Of American history.

Katie Todd [00:14:57] Yeah, yeah. And there were just so many things that I wasn't familiar with. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:05] But also, it's not terrible to grow up loving your country and learning about your country. Right. I enjoyed that growing up. Okay, so what was it like? How was your faith in elementary, middle, and then high school? And like, what was the. Sorry. Like, did it get strong or did you start noticing problems early on? Or were you totally in it and then something happened? Like, how did your faith arc develop in that context?

Katie's Faith Crisis Begins

Katie Todd [00:15:32] Yeah, I was totally, like, totally in it, especially through, like, middle school and then high school. And then I started kind of questioning things the end of my junior year of high school, and it was pretty abrupt. Like I.

John Dehlin [00:15:46] Okay, so through your junior year, you're like, in it to win it.

Katie Todd [00:15:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:49] And. And Matt, I'm assuming that you and your wife were full orthodox believers all through this time as well, is that correct?

Matt Todd [00:16:00] I think that's a fairly accurate description.

John Dehlin [00:16:03] Okay, before we just assume that. Were there bumps before Katie had her bumps for you or your wife?

Matt Todd [00:16:10] I don't know that there was ever anything significant. I think we all have questions and things that raise in your mind and you think, well, that's kind of interesting or OD or whatever. I do remember I read Rough Stone Rolling in this kind of time period.

John Dehlin [00:16:29] So that came out around 2004, 2005.

Matt Todd [00:16:32] Yeah. And it must have been in that. I don't know exactly what years, but before 2010, I think I probably picked it up and read it and enjoyed reading it. But there are things in there that you read it and you think, okay, that's a little interesting. And I didn't necessarily understand that whole picture before, so I think there were things like that that you read or you learn about. And it takes time to process things and just kind of think through. What do I think about that?

John Dehlin [00:17:04] Are you comfortable sharing the top three biggest Things that surprised you reading Rough Stone Rolling.

Matt Todd [00:17:12] It's been a long time since I've read it, but some of the things I think that are still in my mind is just the feeling of that Joseph, as he was going through these experiences, he was figuring things out as he went along. He never had a full picture, I think, of the whole thing. I think he was peeling layers, kind of an onion and trying to figure it out as he went. I look at it, you know, it was kind of a precept on precept type, you know, way of developing something.

John Dehlin [00:17:54] And the church says an ongoing restoration, Right?

Matt Todd [00:17:56] Yeah, yeah. That was interesting to me. I don't know that I had ever thought about that before. Of that he had questions, you know, and he wasn't sure exactly what he was doing. I mean, you read in the things in there about, you know, the washing with whiskey and just kind of funny, funny things that you read it and

John Dehlin [00:18:15] you think, oh, like when they did washings and anointing. Temple washings and anointings, but with alcohol.

Matt Todd [00:18:20] Some of that very early stuff. Yeah. It's just when you look at it from the perspective where you are now, you look back on it and think, okay, that's a little different.

John Dehlin [00:18:31] Okay, so just the idea that revelation wasn't some big totalistic channeling of a finalized policy, but instead Joseph just kind of trial and error figuring stuff out. That was one big thing.

Matt Todd [00:18:44] Things out bit by bit.

John Dehlin [00:18:45] Any other big things stick out and you don't have to.

Matt Todd [00:18:49] You know, I think that the polygamy things are always interesting, you know, just the whole history of the development of polygamy from its early beginnings and stumbling, you know, through how that. How that would work and whatnot. That's. That's always a thorny issue, I think.

John Dehlin [00:19:06] Yeah, yeah. And Brigham and Richard Bushman did touch on it, but he didn't really go in. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, even what he did cover was kind of groundbreaking for a faithful Mormon.

Matt Todd [00:19:23] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:19:24] To have written in 2005.

Matt Todd [00:19:26] Yeah, yeah, I think so.

John Dehlin [00:19:27] Okay, so that hits you. Polygamy. Should we stop there? Is that, Is that.

Matt Todd [00:19:30] I mean, those are the ones I think that come to mind. And it's probably been, you know, 20ish years since I've. Since I've read it, so.

John Dehlin [00:19:38] But you didn't have like a faith crisis or you was just like, aha.

Matt Todd [00:19:42] Yeah. I don't know that I would describe it as anything of a real faith crisis, but it did make me think about things.

John Dehlin [00:19:50] It was a head scratching instead of A crisis? Yes. Okay. Okay. All right. Okay. So should we jump, Katie, to what happened in your junior year, or are there other parts of your childhood, adolescence, or Mormon story that's important background to share before you talk about the big reckoning.

Katie Todd [00:20:12] I think the only thing that I want to mention is I kind of felt like I was a part of two different churches because there was the church on Sunday and at Mutual, and I'd never felt like I really belonged very well with the girls, and I had a hard time feeling like I fit in. And I feel like they weren't as orthodox and strict with the requirements as my school was. So I definitely felt like. It felt like two different expectations. So I never. I don't know, I had a hard time always feeling like I fit in and belonged into, like, my ward.

John Dehlin [00:20:49] You mentioned in your outline feeling anxiety at just. Even your baptism. Do you want to talk about that?

Katie Todd [00:20:55] Yeah. Yeah, I think. Yeah. This is a funny story. Before the night before I got. I was baptized, I. Obviously you're taught that, like, children are accountable once they're. Once they're 8 years old and you're baptized. And I felt like everything. There was no way that I could be perfect. Right. Like, obviously I'm gonna make mistakes. And I. It was very anxiety inducing to me to, like, have to sleep the night before, and then, like, the next day I wake up and suddenly I'm, like, accountable for everything. So there was a lot of anxiety just along, like, worthiness. I think that's kind of what I. And it sounds kind of morbid, but I was like, would it be better if I just died before I'm eight?

John Dehlin [00:21:45] Because then I had those thoughts. I had those exact thoughts. It's like, why would I want to keep living? Like, die while I'm good, and then I'm guaranteed celestial kingdom. That is a very common thought in Mormon theology.

Matt Todd [00:21:58] Yeah.

Katie Todd [00:21:58] And I. I had it. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:00] Yeah, yeah.

Matt Todd [00:22:00] Interesting. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:01] In fact, I had it worse. I had the thought. The mo. This is a terrible thought. I never. I never wanted to do this, but this is what made sense to me, purely logically, that the most. Logically, the most charitable thing you could ever do is kill all babies before they turn eight. Because you'd be guaranteeing there's salvation in the celestial kingdom forever if you just killed all children and babies before. Because there's the Mormon teaching that anyone who dies before the age of 8 automatically goes to celestial kingdom. Somebody said that at some point, right?

Katie Todd [00:22:44] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:46] So I'm like, that's what we should do, but of course I never did it. Well, I mean, it's just trying to make sense of the theology and, like, draw it forward. Anyway. I get you.

Katie Todd [00:22:57] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:22:58] In a demented, twisted way, I get you. You mentioned also your parents not making you go to church. Do you want to talk about that?

Katie Todd [00:23:07] Yeah. So growing up, I think I was always pretty willing to go to church and I wanted to be there because I felt like it was the right thing to do. And there were definitely a couple times, like, as a teenager that I just didn't go because I didn't want to. And they didn't, they didn't give me much pushback. And it's interesting because now, I mean, I go to church, like with my family, like, at least twice a month. And I think that might be part of it is because it was never, like, really shoved down my throat. You'd probably remember more. That's kind of what I remember, though.

Matt Todd [00:23:49] Yeah. I think we just tried to. Tried to encourage you to go, let you know that we felt like it was important to be there. But at the same time, we're going to let you make your own decision, but we're going to make sure that you understand this is how we feel about it. You know, I think that's what we tried to do.

John Dehlin [00:24:10] And I'm curious, Matt, as you're reflecting on Katie prior to her junior year, every parent wants their kid to be a righteous, faithful, strong testimony Mormon. I assume you did, too.

Matt Todd [00:24:24] I. I definitely want.

John Dehlin [00:24:25] Yeah, that's. I mean, that's why you sacrifice and make all the decisions you do. Were you, like, up until her junior year? Like, we're doing it. We're doing it, honey.

Matt Todd [00:24:33] We're doing it. She's.

John Dehlin [00:24:34] She's like Nephi in female form. Were you feeling good about her? Mormonism?

Matt Todd [00:24:38] Yeah, I think generally we felt like she's turning out to be what we hoped she would be.

John Dehlin [00:24:44] You know, you weren't like, oh, she's a rotten egg or like she's a, she's a layman or she's, you know, kind of straying. You were feeling. Yeah, she was on track.

Matt Todd [00:24:54] I think we felt very good about kind of the, the general direction. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:58] Okay. Okay. Okay. So what happened your junior year? What was the big thing?

Katie Todd [00:25:04] So I.

John Dehlin [00:25:05] And what year is your junior year?

Katie Todd [00:25:06] Oh, gosh, I graduated in 2020. So this would have been 2018, 2017.

John Dehlin [00:25:13] 2018, yeah. Okay.

Matt Todd [00:25:15] Yeah, 1920 would have been your senior year.

Katie Todd [00:25:17] Yeah. So around there.

John Dehlin [00:25:18] Okay. So around 2017, 2018.

Matt Todd [00:25:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:21] Okay.

Katie Todd [00:25:22] Yeah. I. Pre.

John Dehlin [00:25:25] Covid.

Katie Todd [00:25:25] Yes, definitely pre Covid. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:25:27] Okay.

Katie Todd [00:25:28] How it kind of started, because I think I naturally kind of questioned everything, and I was interested in just, I don't know, just exploring things. And so I read. This is kind of random, I guess, going back to the teaching that, like, America's, you know, it's. I'm, like, trying to think of the right way. Inspired. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:50] Like, the Book of Mormon teaches that America was prepared by God for his chosen people, honestly.

Katie Todd [00:25:56] Exactly. Yeah. So I guess going back to the whitewashing of history, I got, like, a copy of, you know, like, just a published copy of Columbus's diary. And so I read it, and there's obviously atrocious things. It's not good.

John Dehlin [00:26:12] Give us some examples.

Katie Todd [00:26:13] There was a lot of, like, definitely, like, human trafficking, like, sexual assault, sexual abuse, and, you know, racism, I'm sure. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, definitely racism.

John Dehlin [00:26:27] Yeah.

Katie Todd [00:26:29] And so I read that.

John Dehlin [00:26:30] I mean, that's pretty bad. Sexual assault, racism, and human tragedy.

Katie Todd [00:26:33] Pretty bad. Yeah. Not great.

John Dehlin [00:26:36] And colonialism. I mean, that's all very bad.

Katie Todd [00:26:39] So it was the first time that I had been, like, exposed to the other side of things. And initially I was like, well, this can't be true, because I was taught. I was taught this, like, this version, you know, And I just knew that that stuff was wrong. And so I. I once I learned that that actually, like, some of that obviously did happen, it made me question kind of the narrative that I had been told. And so I ended up. I don't even remember how I got it or how I knew about it, but I ended up reading, like, the CES letter. And it's funny because I read it in the.

John Dehlin [00:27:16] You don't remember how you first heard about it?

Katie Todd [00:27:19] I don't remember.

John Dehlin [00:27:19] Huh.

Katie Todd [00:27:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:20] Wow.

Katie Todd [00:27:21] I don't remember. It's kind of a blur, to be honest, but I remember I read it during class. Like, I was on my phone during class.

John Dehlin [00:27:29] Let's slow down there. So, for those who don't know, CES Letter is a PDF and a website written and published by someone who's now been excommunicated. Well, he resigned when he was facing excommunication, but he basically. Jeremy Rundles is his name. We've done entire episodes with him, but basically, he was faithful Mormon deaf. Lost his, you know, learned about a bunch of church history, lost his faith, wrote all about it, and it's called cesletter.org so that's just to give our Never Mormons a background for what we're talking about. So he published that around 2014, 2015 time period. So it would have been around for a few years when you discovered it.

Katie Todd [00:28:16] Yes. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:16] And it just talks about polygamy, Joseph's folk magic, Peepstone in a hat, Book of Abraham stuff, race stuff. Like, it basically hits the 1015 Biggest Challenges to Mormon Church Truth claims in one 80 page document, and it can cause people to lose their faith in literally a couple hours. So I'm just. I want to slow down. So why would you even like. I feel like Mormons are often immunized or inoculated. To say anything that makes you feel uncomfortable is that the adversary is dark force. It's. It's Satan. So, like, I would think Mormon girl raised in Highland Utah county, going to American Heritage, you would see CES letter and go, no, that's Satan. That's evil. That's anti Mormon. Not even gonna read it. So was it your disillusionment with Christopher Columbus that cracked you open, do you think?

Katie Todd [00:29:18] I think that's part of it. I think the other part is I was so confident in it, and I'm like, if something is true, then it doesn't matter what you're gonna read or what information you're taking. What's true is true, so it's not gonna change anything. I think if something is true, then it should be strong enough to withstand that. So I never really bought into the information control kind of aspect of it. I just believed that it would kind of stand on its own if it was true.

John Dehlin [00:29:47] And the CS letter starts with that quote, if the church is wrong, it should be harmed. You know, if the church is true, it cannot be harmed. If the church is wrong, it should be harmed. Something like that. Right?

Katie Todd [00:29:59] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:00] So, I mean, okay, I mean, that's solid logic, but it could take you hard places. So anyway, so you're a junior at American Heritage in Highlands, Utah county, and you start reading about Peepstones and polyandry and Book of Abraham. So what's that like?

Katie Todd [00:30:18] Yeah, I was done pretty quickly.

John Dehlin [00:30:22] With what?

Katie Todd [00:30:23] Just with the church.

John Dehlin [00:30:24] What?

Katie Todd [00:30:25] Yeah, like, I just was like, okay, like the end.

John Dehlin [00:30:28] Wait, so you're raised for 16 years faithful in Utah, and your testimony evaporated in like an hour?

Katie Todd [00:30:36] It was fast. I don't remember. Not more than a week, probably.

John Dehlin [00:30:42] Dang.

Katie Todd [00:30:43] I think he would remember more of the specifics of what I was talking about at the time. But I think I knew what things were right and what things were wrong.

John Dehlin [00:30:53] What do you mean?

Katie Todd [00:30:54] I feel like I had my own moral compass and I Just recognized that things were wrong and I couldn't comprehend or, like, I couldn't believe that those things would happen in, like, God's church. So then I was like, well, this isn't God's church.

John Dehlin [00:31:09] Let me ask you about that. So, like, critics of Jeremy Runnels and the CES letter would say, oh, no, no, no, the history isn't a problem. It's that Jeremy manipulated and deceived people and contextualized and framed the history in a. In an intentionally deceitful way to rob people of their faith. But the facts themselves aren't the problem. It's Jeremy's deceitful, cunning, evil contextualization. Did you then or have you now considered that it was actually Jeremy's spin that took you out, not the actual information? Or did you find a way to sanity check or to verify the information Jeremy was sharing?

Katie Todd [00:31:59] Yeah, I definitely verified the information both with, like, with the gospel topics essays. Cause all that information is in there. Like, it's not anything that's. That's really that different.

John Dehlin [00:32:10] And those were out by then?

Katie Todd [00:32:11] Yes. Yeah. And then I definitely talked to my dad about it because my dad was also very familiar with church history.

John Dehlin [00:32:20] So, like, that week you reached out to your dad. Yeah, I mean, let's talk about that.

Matt Todd [00:32:25] Do you remember when in the year this was? Because I remember some specific things, but I don't know when other things exactly happened.

Katie Todd [00:32:33] This would have been like, March.

Matt Todd [00:32:35] Okay.

Katie Todd [00:32:37] Yeah. Like end of junior year. So, like March or April.

Matt Todd [00:32:39] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:32:40] Okay. So you talk about, like, sometimes things are so intense in Mormonism that you would be afraid to tell your parent. I'm going to say already it's an amazing testament to your dad slash your relationship with your dad, that if you're going to tell me you felt comfortable talking to him about this, I'm going to say, that's remarkable. And you're already nodding your head, Matt.

Matt Todd [00:33:08] I'm grateful that she felt that way and I think still feel kind of feels that way. She's very open.

John Dehlin [00:33:14] Yeah. But that also means she felt safe. But I don't want to put words in your mouth, Katie.

Katie Todd [00:33:19] Yeah, I didn't even think about not telling him. Like, I was like, I find this interesting. I want to talk about it. Who do I know that I trust

John Dehlin [00:33:27] that I can talk about it? That's amazing. That's rare and amazing. So I'm gonna call that out.

Matt Todd [00:33:33] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:33:35] Okay. Keep going. So, gotta talk to dad.

Katie Todd [00:33:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:38] Were you thinking dad will fix everything or.

Katie Todd [00:33:41] I think, yeah, I. I think I Was just curious if it was true, if the things that I, you know, that were in there, if they were true and kind of I was interested to hear his perspective and what he thought of it. That's. Yeah, okay. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:01] Okay, cool. So do you remember what you told him? And then do you remember how. And then I want to hear both of your accounts of how you talk through the issues.

Polygamy, Book of Abraham, and Race in the Priesthood

Katie Todd [00:34:11] I think the biggest things for me were polygamy, the book of Abraham, and then race in the priesthood. Those were the big three.

John Dehlin [00:34:20] Okay, wait, Polygamy, race, and the priesthood, and the book of Abraham. Okay. And for those who don't know anything about those, give a one or two sentence summary of each one.

Katie Todd [00:34:31] Yeah, So I guess starting with polygamy, I was familiar that polygamy happened, but I wasn't ever told the specifics. And so specifically, like, underage girls.

John Dehlin [00:34:41] Now, are we talking Joseph Smith specifically?

Katie Todd [00:34:43] Yes. I mean, I would always be confused why people would argue to, like, with Joseph Smith, they'd say, oh, it's not like it wasn't sexual. Like, it was just for, you know, the next life. When obviously, Brigham, he had 55 wives, and I don't even know how many kids he had.

John Dehlin [00:35:02] Lots.

Katie Todd [00:35:02] So I'm like, why are you making that argument if it's not gonna apply to the next prophet?

John Dehlin [00:35:07] Well, I've been hearing two things. One, you were never told about the details of Joseph Smith's polygamy. And this is not. We're not talking 1970s or 1980s or 1990s or even 2000s. We're talking late 2000 teens. You grow up in Utah to almost adulthood, and often to adulthood, never once in a Mormon context ever hearing any discussion about Joseph Smith and his plural wives and again, underage wives and the sister mother pairs and the sister pairs and the mother daughter pairs. And that's important.

John Dehlin [00:35:47] And then so it's that you weren't told, and then you know the details and the bad excuses for it. So that's all. I think that's all really important. And it might be hard for people to just understand that that's even possible, but that just speaks to the bubble. I call it the bubble. But when you're raised Mormon, even in 2026, you know, I just interviewed David Archuleta, and, like, he gets off his mission, knows he's gay, is trying to struggle with it. The November 2015 policy happens, which we're about to talk about, and he admits it. He was just like, la, la, la, la, la, la, la. And he's gay. You know, and he didn't want to even deal with it. So he, like, it didn't even really phase him.

Katie Todd [00:36:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:35] Even though he's trying to figure out his life, it didn't faze him he was gay. So, I mean, that's just an example of how strong the Mormon bubble is. I don't mean to belabor the point, but I think it's important to call it out.

Katie Todd [00:36:47] And I have a specific memory. The only specific conversation I remember about polygamy in church was at a young women's lesson, and they kind of brought it up for a little bit, and then they were just like, oh, with the pioneers, too many men passed away. So you had all these women that didn't have a spouse. So that's why we practiced polygamy. So that's what I had been told, and that's what I believed. And then when I learned that that isn't actually what happened, I felt like I couldn't trust what I had been told. So it kind of started unraveling everything.

John Dehlin [00:37:19] Yeah. And what's really confusing for people to really understand this whole timeline is prior to the Mormon and ex Mormon Internet and Mormon stories and CES letter and Mormonthink, and all the things that happened in the mid to late 2000s, all that led to the church coming out with the Gospel topics essays, which then was the church finally starting to try and be honest about its history that then would make it so that maybe someone's experience in 2026 would be a little bit different? So I will admit the church is better in 2026 than it was in 2013 and much better then than it was in 2000, but it's not. The church was forced to get better. And so you were on this early generation of people that had the Gospel topics essays to validate the information available to the Internet. And that's important.

Katie Todd [00:38:21] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:23] Okay. So you, polygamy, Book of Abraham. Do you talk about that?

Katie Todd [00:38:27] Yeah, I think the thing with the Book of Abraham is it's just illogical. Like, just that. Just that we have. We don't have, obviously, all the papyri, but we have a good amount of them. And we can see that the translation, it's not, like, accurate. And there is, you know, there are different apologetic arguments, but none of them could satisfy my questions. Yeah, they just didn't make sense.

John Dehlin [00:38:52] Yeah, There's. It is not a translation by any standard. You have to re. You have to redefine the word translation to claim that Joseph Smith translated those papyru into what we now have as the Book of Abraham. So the apologetics didn't work for you?

Katie Todd [00:39:08] No.

John Dehlin [00:39:08] Okay. And then how has the church been racist? What are you talking about?

Katie Todd [00:39:12] Yeah. Right. Yeah, that was really hard for me. I think a repeated theme in this is seeing the church implement policies and doctrines that harms people. And I just have a really hard time reconciling that with being God's, that he would be involved in something that would harm people. And so I think the racism is a big example of that. And once again, there's just no way to rationalize or explain that.

John Dehlin [00:39:43] So you're talking about Brigham Young's racist statements.

Katie Todd [00:39:46] Yeah, And I think it bleeds over even today. Like we still have remnants of that.

John Dehlin [00:39:52] Yeah. And the Book of Mormon Lamanite curse and. Yeah, and the priesthood band.

Katie Todd [00:39:58] Those things I was taught, like, I, I was explicitly taught that, that like Native Americans are like descendants of the Lamanites. Like, I remember being. Being taught that.

John Dehlin [00:40:08] And cursed with dark skin.

Katie Todd [00:40:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:10] Because their ancestors were wicked.

Katie Todd [00:40:12] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:40:12] Right. Yeah. Okay, okay, okay. So I've already made this point, but let me just say it in a different way. Like I, I think I bear the honor, the dubious honor of having spoken with more ex Mormons than anyone in the world. And so I can tell you how this often goes.

John Dehlin [00:40:32] Well, I've already told you. Daughter loses her faith, she's terrified to tell her parents and just hides it and never talks to them. That's what I would predict as the average experience. You obviously didn't do that. But the second thing I would say is the reason why most people wouldn't come out to their parent is because the most likely reaction of a parent is, is, this is evil. This is terrible. Stop reading anti Mormon literature. Put it back in the bottle.

John Dehlin [00:40:58] You're bad for even asking these questions. So stop. You know, and so. And that would be a horrible thing to HEAR As a 16 year old, Matt, that's not how you reacted. So tell us what it was like for you and how it was that you made a miraculously non average parental response as a believing Mormon to his daughter's faith crisis.

A Pivotal Conversation About Church Policy

Matt Todd [00:41:28] The one kind of scene that I remember from all this experience was it was in April. So this would have been April 2019. The thing that I remember, it was

Katie Todd [00:41:40] when they reversed the 2015 exclusion policy.

John Dehlin [00:41:44] Let's go back. So tell everyone what the 2015 policy did. Unless you want me to. But you can't.

Katie Todd [00:41:50] Yeah, you probably do a better job. And it's basically like children of Like LGBTQ parents couldn't be baptized unless they. And they had to like denounce their faith and they couldn't be baptized until

John Dehlin [00:42:01] they were 18 after denouncing their parents marriage.

Katie Todd [00:42:05] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:42:05] It's like you as a Mormon kid can't get baptized till you're 18 because your parent is gay. And when you're 18, the only way we'll let you get baptized is if you tell us you condemn and denounce your gay parents. Legal same sex marriage. Just mind blowingly barbaric. Horrible policy. Good intended, I think, but just disastrous in effect.

Katie Todd [00:42:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:33] Yeah. So you didn't like that?

Katie Todd [00:42:36] I think I was okay with it. Like, I was like, okay, like maybe this, you know, I had a hard time with it, but up until. Cause I think they reversed it. And in 2018. Right.

John Dehlin [00:42:45] Like April, I think it was 2019.

Katie Todd [00:42:47] 2019.

Matt Todd [00:42:47] He would know best.

Katie Todd [00:42:48] Yeah. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:42:49] It was like a little less than four years, but almost four years.

Katie Todd [00:42:52] Yes. And so once they reversed it, I think it just like added accelerant to the fire.

John Dehlin [00:42:59] And what's wrong with changing your mind?

Katie Todd [00:43:02] Yeah. Well, if you claim that both are revelation, like they contradict each other, that

John Dehlin [00:43:07] God did it in 2015 and then took it away, and he happened to accidentally take it away after there was a massive public outcry and bad PR for the church, and a gazillion people resigned from the church.

Katie Todd [00:43:18] It seems like there's a simpler explanation, which is that they're just doing what they think is the right thing to

John Dehlin [00:43:26] do, but it's not from God.

Matt Todd [00:43:27] They're doing the best they can.

John Dehlin [00:43:28] What's that?

Matt Todd [00:43:28] They're doing the best they can.

John Dehlin [00:43:29] Of course that's a valid perspective. But I mean, it can't be that God did both. Is that fair?

Matt Todd [00:43:38] To me, it kind of goes back to the comment earlier about Joseph figuring out as he goes along. And I think it's the same thing, you know?

John Dehlin [00:43:47] No, that's valid. Like, that is a but. But we're not always raised with that

Matt Todd [00:43:53] expectation, to put it that way.

John Dehlin [00:43:54] Right. We're raised to think, oh, God says do this. Okay, we'll do it. That's what God wants.

Matt Todd [00:43:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:00] So even though your dad had this mature perspective, you, I guess probably because you were partly a product of church education, the church probably didn't teach you. This is an important point. Like, we raised our daughters LDS after we lost our orthodox faith. We thought if we just kind of had our influence on our kids that they would absorb our Mormon worldview. That we felt good about the surrounding culture is gonna be way more influential on your kids than you are as a parent. And so it doesn't matter how cool or progressive you were. Matt, your daughter sounds like you picked up the church's perspective on prophets and leaders and infallibility.

Katie Todd [00:44:47] Yeah, I think the other aspect of this is we didn't talk about this kind of stuff until I brought it up, so it might have been different if my parents kind of explained their more progressive views on these things. Cause I wasn't. I didn't know that he thought that or knew or thought about things that way.

John Dehlin [00:45:06] Yeah.

Matt Todd [00:45:07] I think also, I think you. You've described before, and you correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you kind of also have a tendency to see things in black and white.

Katie Todd [00:45:16] Yeah.

Matt Todd [00:45:17] Rather than shades of gray, like any good lawyer.

John Dehlin [00:45:22] Right. I'm kidding. Were you that way before law school? Were you a shades of gray guy before law school? Or is that partly your viewers?

Matt Todd [00:45:30] I think the shades of gray thing has been probably a progressive thing throughout my life, and I can't really pinpoint when did that begin? So it's hard to say.

John Dehlin [00:45:39] I think shades of gray is a healthy way to see life.

Matt Todd [00:45:41] I think so, too.

John Dehlin [00:45:42] But, you know, not everybody gets that message.

Matt Todd [00:45:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:47] Okay. So you feel like you do you feel okay with your dad's characterization that you were kind of black and white?

Katie Todd [00:45:53] Yeah, I still am that way. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:57] Whoa. Okay. So challenge us on the shades of gray things, you know?

Katie Todd [00:46:01] Yeah, Yeah. I think. I mean, it just goes back to. There are things that are wrong and there are things that are right. You know, Like, I just.

John Dehlin [00:46:08] Yeah, it's true.

Katie Todd [00:46:09] I'm just not gonna believe that. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:12] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So when the church in 2019 reverses the November 2015 policy, after they had called it doctrine, they then undid the doctrine that made you feel.

Katie Todd [00:46:29] I think that that's when I was, like, done. Like, I had already kind of deconstructed my testimony, but I wasn't exactly sure what I. You know, like, if I still wanted to be involved or what I wanted to do. But once that happened, I. Yeah, I was. I was pretty much done. And I remember I called. Yeah, I called you pretty.

Matt Todd [00:46:50] I remember the phone calls.

John Dehlin [00:46:52] You want to talk about that?

Matt Todd [00:46:54] So it was over general conference weekend. If I'm thinking of the same thing you are. April 2019, and I was actually in France with our second daughter Katie's younger sister on a school spring break field trip. Went there with a bunch of American French Students. Yeah, to Paris. And I remember I was on it, it was a Sunday. It was that general conference Sunday. Sarah and I, your sister, were on a train going from Paris to go see some friends in Lille. I served my mission in France.

John Dehlin [00:47:35] Oh, cool.

Matt Todd [00:47:37] And so we were on that train ride and Katie called me and I think you were at probably my parents house for general conference and you just kind of, you know, let it all spill out that I can't do this anymore.

Matt Todd [00:47:56] And I just, I remember the feeling that I had at the time was just to let her know that I believe in her. And you know, you, I have confidence in you and in your ability to make a decision that's going to be, that's going to be good for you and your life and the fact that I'm your dad. But I'm not going to be here forever. You know, you're going to live well beyond I, whatever I might live and you got to make your own decisions.

Matt Todd [00:48:36] But I remember also, I think talking about take your time, you know, there's no hurry to make a decision. Take your time to think things through. And I think this has been a theme with you and I for a long time is use your noodle. You know, God gave you intellect and use that.

Matt Todd [00:49:00] I just think, you know, that gift of conscious and the ability to have a conscience and that to me is priceless. I think above all to be true to what we feel within us is good and right. And I think that's what I remember from that phone call is just encouraging you to listen to yourself, whatever it is that, that you feel like you ought to do. But also I think I encourage you to spend time in the Book of Mormon. Spend time in those things that I know have been an anchor in my own life from my own experience, that those things have been important and key to me and they still are.

Matt Todd [00:49:52] But just encouraging you to. I think that those things could also be helpful to you. But I tried to make sure that she felt love and confidence and it's all going to be okay. No matter what you decide or what you do, I'll still love you. You'll always be my daughter.

John Dehlin [00:50:12] I mean I'm like beautiful and I was like said almost no Mormon parent ever. You know what you just said, right? Like, I don't know, in my experience that's like a 99th percentile. A healthy response, but incredibly rare. Are you feeling, do you want to tell us what you're feeling right now?

Matt's Response to His Daughter Leaving the Church

Matt Todd [00:50:36] I just, I feel gratitude, you know, I just feel love. I Think for Katie, just. I think I got some of that same perspective on things from my own parents. And I think I've tried to live my life in a way where I never wanted my children to be afraid of me. I wanted them to feel that they could always come to me with anything or everything, you know, whatever was on their mind. I wanted them to feel like my wife and I would be a safe place that they could come and we could help them through whatever that might be, they might need.

John Dehlin [00:51:28] Wow. I'm moved. Thank you. And, Katie, what was that like for you to get that response? And did you realize how rare that response was or not?

Katie Todd [00:51:39] I definitely didn't realize how rare that was. I also don't think I realized that until I moved. Moved out to go to college. And I talked, like. I started talking to, like, my friends that had left the church, and they. A lot of them, like, they still feel like they can't talk to their parents about these. These kind of. These kinds of issues. I think initially I was so focused on myself and, like, what I was feeling, and I definitely went through, like, the anger. The anger phase. And so I didn't. In the moment, I didn't recognize how, like, thoughtful and, like, empathetic his response was. But, yeah, definitely, looking back, I. Yeah, I appreciate it. And it's been, like, a repeated theme like that. That isn't the only conversation that we've had that's. That's been like that.

John Dehlin [00:52:34] It's so tricky because, like, the fish doesn't know the fish is in water. So if you grew up with that dad and mom, you're going to be just like, oh, that's just dad. You know what I mean?

Katie Todd [00:52:45] Yeah, that's exactly what it felt like.

John Dehlin [00:52:47] But that's why this story is so remarkable to me. Do you have other thoughts really quick?

Matt Todd [00:52:54] I don't know that I have anything else to share right now. I just, you know, just like anybody else, I think I'm trying the best I know how. Parenthood doesn't come with any. No, there's no instructions. You know, you pick up little bits and pieces as you go along, and you make mistakes along the way. I mean, we made plenty of mistakes, but maybe this is one area where maybe we did something right, you know?

John Dehlin [00:53:18] Yeah. Okay. So you didn't feel some huge sense of relief that he still loved you, and you just knew that you knew beforehand he'd be that way?

Katie Todd [00:53:30] Yeah, I don't think that that was ever in question.

John Dehlin [00:53:33] Yeah. Because. Yeah, like you said, there's Parents that will disown their children or will put them in a wilderness camp for a summer, you know, or ground them endlessly, or shame them. Worst of all, just shame them as bad and evil, or guilt trip them into silence or acquiescence. Like really, really painful, hard stuff. And I don't blame those parents because, like, if the church is true and the gospel is everything and the stakes are eternal, then I could understand why a Mormon parent would be intense about it or even hurt or angry or upset like I was. Let me ask you this, Matt. Like, you raise a. It takes a lot of work to raise a Mormon kid as a devout member. So like, and it. I think even today you would say your kids eternal salvation is one of the most important things to you in your life. Is that right?

Matt Todd [00:54:37] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:38] So like, how, like, did you feel fear or anger or disappointment? Not in who she is, but, you know, I just think about some of my own family members whose kids left the church. They gave their everything to raise their kids, to be faithful Mormons, and then their kids leave, and it's just like, why did we spend decades, all the sacrifices to then just have our kids leave? The emotions must be really hard underneath. Right.

Matt Todd [00:55:15] I definitely felt some of those, you know, fear, scared. What did we do wrong? You know, all those things, I think that anybody would kind of feel under those circumstances.

John Dehlin [00:55:26] But what about worry for her? So.

Matt Todd [00:55:29] Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I think it began to change my perspective, and it's probably still changing today, of how I look at the big picture. And I think as a believing Latter Day Saint, I think where I came from, sometimes we have a too small of a view of what the picture really is, what God is really doing and how he's going to go about doing it. Mm. I think the picture is much, much broader than any of us realize. Or, you know, I just think there's. And I think I'm beginning to see that even I think I'm. I think that's still a work in progress.

John Dehlin [00:56:14] What I think you're touching on is what I understand as being Leon Festinger's cognitive dissonance theory, that if you're distressed about a situation, one of the most natural ways to cope with the distress is to think differently about the situation. And it sounds like you had a certain theology or cosmology of Mormonism that maybe was more constricted or limited. And what you've done is matured or developed your Mormon cosmology or theology in a way that helps you to feel less worried or that you feel is more accurate? I mean, something. Right, right.

Matt Todd [00:56:57] Yeah, I think that's true. I definitely have a different perspective now

John Dehlin [00:57:02] than I did then on how heaven works and the judgment and the afterlife and all that.

Matt Todd [00:57:07] I just think. I think I've always felt some things matter more than other things. I've always felt like the way that we treat other people is very, very high on the list. And a lot of the other kind of do's and don'ts and little bells and whistles, I think you could describe them as bells and whistles of kind of the restored gospel.

Matt Todd [00:57:36] Those may come around, but can we learn how to treat other people well while we're in this life? And if we can do that, I think that's maybe the biggest part of what we're intended to learn. I still, you know, I believe, you know, God's work in glory is to bring to pass the immortality eternal life of man.

Matt Todd [00:57:59] I believe that. But I think I have a bigger, more expanded view of that might look different for different people and the pathway may be very different for, you know, some people versus other people. But I think in the end I just trust in God's goodness that he knows what he's doing.

Matt Todd [00:58:16] And we don't necessarily understand what the picture really looks like and how he's going to get it, how he's going to want it to be. But I just trust in his goodness, love it.

John Dehlin [00:58:29] I mean, just the core of treat people kindly, that's huge. But then God trusting God. If you're a believer, be a believer, but just trust God that he's more powerful and loving than a rigid, constricting Mormon theology interpretation might allow. Is that fair?

Matt Todd [00:58:52] Yeah, yeah, I think that's generally fair. I just have a. I think I have a more expansive view now of what. How we might get to the. The be all, end all than. Than I would have, you know, 20 years ago.

John Dehlin [00:59:07] I love it. All right. So, Katie, what was that like for you to have your dad? I mean, again, we've already said you were swimming in the water of his love anyway, so it must have just been like a Tuesday. It was just a Tuesday. But so what was. How did. So going back a tiny bit, Julie asked. This is just kind of funny. Did you, like, have a faith crisis at your desk at American Heritage High School? What was that like to like, lose your faith as a. More at your desk at American Heritage High School in, like, Utah County?

Social Isolation and Family Reactions

Katie Todd [00:59:39] I think it was isolating because all of my friends were definitely active in believing and there is a Risk. This is probably a little irrational. It's probably not 100% accurate, but I was worried that if I kind of stepped too far out of line, I would get in trouble at school, and there was the possibility that I'd get suspended or expelled. So I felt like there were only a few people that I could talk to it. Like, talk. Talk about it.

John Dehlin [01:00:11] Wait, you thought you might get expelled from high school if you talked about your Mormon doubts with other students?

Katie Todd [01:00:18] Kind of. And I'm an anxious person. Like, I'm not saying that that would have happened.

John Dehlin [01:00:23] Yeah, no, no, you just thought. You thought it might.

Katie Todd [01:00:25] But I. That was a thought that I had.

John Dehlin [01:00:26] Sure.

Katie Todd [01:00:29] Because we. I mean, we had like, an honor code, like byu, and it was basically like, for the. For the Strength of Youth pamphlet. Yeah, it was basically that put into a contract. So I think there were. Yeah, there was definitely a lot of isolation and fear, but I felt like I had an outlet to talk about it with my parents. And so it wasn't. It wasn't debilitating.

John Dehlin [01:00:58] But it does set you off from your peers in a very orthodox Mormon town, which.

Katie Todd [01:01:03] And the funny part about this is I am still really close friends with one of my friends from high school. She has also since left the church, and she actually mentally left before I did, but we never talked about it.

John Dehlin [01:01:16] Yeah, that's a bizarre aspect of Mormonism that, like, I've met married Mormon couples were. Both lost their faith, but neither felt safe telling the other.

Matt Todd [01:01:28] They wouldn't talk about it.

John Dehlin [01:01:29] So they were in parallel not believing, but in parallel keeping it from their spouse and parent child. Where, like, a father lost his faith but wouldn't dare tell his spouse or children. And a child loses their faith but wouldn't dare tell their parents. And so they're both suffering in silence in parallel, living under the same roof. That's kind of wild.

Matt Todd [01:01:52] Nuts.

John Dehlin [01:01:53] Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so you had your dad as an outlet. What about your mom? Or do you even want to. You don't have to talk about.

Katie Todd [01:02:00] Yeah, we can talk about my mom. She and I. This is also, like, a repeated theme, so this is good to bring up. Initially, I think it was really hard for her to have those kinds of conversations. And so I'd say the first few years, we didn't really talk about it much or she would, like, separate herself from the situation. Since then, we, like. Yeah, we talk about it with her, too. I think me and my dad are a little bit more like. I like to analyze things and really kind of fall down the rabbit hole and think about things. And I think we're similar like that. And so we can have. I don't know, we're just more interested in having that conversation. But I feel the same way. Like, I feel like I can talk to her and approach her about anything.

John Dehlin [01:02:52] I'll just say from the standpoint of, like, all the people I've talked to, because of the way Mormon culture is and particularly like the proclamation on the family, I think the Mormon mom tends to take more personally choices that the kid makes, because if the dad's primary role is to. To provide, he's working all the time. It's the mom that stays home to, quote, raise the kids. So if the kid leaves or loses their faith or gets into trouble, oftentimes it's the mom that feels that more deeply and specifically feels that whole, what did I do wrong? Thing way more deeply than a dad might on average.

Katie Todd [01:03:34] I also. Yes, that's totally fair. I also think, like, I've noticed that I have a hard time finding women that are active and believing in the church that are willing and familiar enough to talk about polygamy and things like that. And I don't know if it's. Cause they have. We as women have a different experience and it's more personal to us because I think the thing with polygamy that was so hard for me is that I just see myself in those women's shoes. And I think for women it's harder to rationalize, and so they just don't want to talk about it or think about it. So, like all of the active believing members of the church that I've had conversations like this with, they're all men.

John Dehlin [01:04:21] Yeah. Another possible explanation or contributing factor. I think there's different brain types. And I'm not saying all women have the same brain type and all men have the same brain type. I'm not saying that. However, I've talked about two types of Mormons. Validity Mormons and utility Mormons. A validity Mormon cares about whether something's true or not, like the evidence, the facts, the logic. A utility Mormon cares about whether it works, whether it makes you happy, whether it's good for raising kids. And sometimes men, on average, are more validity Mormons caring about facts and evidence and truth. And sometimes on average, I. I found women to be more utility Mormons about whether it's just working. And for me, that I think, contributes to some of this dynamic. Not all. Yeah, there's exceptions always.

Katie Todd [01:05:18] Right. That makes sense. Yeah, I've seen that too.

John Dehlin [01:05:20] Okay, okay, okay. So your mom eventually all got to a good place. Okay, so what's it like? So did you, like, let's just say between your loss of faith as a junior and your graduation, did you still graduate from seminary? Did you hide this from your bishop? Did you just play along? How did that make you think.

Matt Todd [01:05:42] She's had some good bishops.

John Dehlin [01:05:44] Okay.

Matt Todd [01:05:44] She can tell you about them.

John Dehlin [01:05:46] And this would have been after Thomas S. Monson lured the mission age for women, so you would have had to also face this decision of all your. Your female peers going on missions and what you were going to do about all that, plus BYU or not. Like, yeah, so many things. I'm just trying to empathetically channel what you would have been thinking about your junior and senior years.

Matt Todd [01:06:07] Yeah.

Katie Todd [01:06:08] So, yeah, going into my senior year, I did still graduate from seminary. I graduated from American Heritage. Obviously, Covid threw a wrench and everything, so I was only in school till March.

John Dehlin [01:06:20] Yeah, yeah.

Katie Todd [01:06:21] Yes, I do remember. I. I would push back, like, a little bit against teachers just because I was interested in having those kinds of conversations, but I was starting to feel more comfortable with talking about the doubts and things that I had. Yeah. What was the other part? Sorry.

John Dehlin [01:06:47] Yeah. So how did you. Did you. What did you do about a mission? What'd you do about byu? What'd you do about, like, all your friends going on missions? All that?

Katie Todd [01:06:56] Yeah. So for a mission, I. I never felt like I wanted to serve a mission, so that. That wasn't. That wasn't a big problem for me. I never really thought about it too much. My friends, we. We kept in contact. I think Covid threw a wrench and everything, so we kind of fell out of contact for a few months, probably close to a year. And then I just have, like, one really good friend from high school, and we're, you know, we still are in contact and see each other a lot, I think. I mean, a lot of things was with high school. I just left in high school, college. I didn't think I wanted.

John Dehlin [01:07:36] You didn't stop going to church in high school?

Katie Todd [01:07:38] No, I didn't. And I still technically haven't stopped.

John Dehlin [01:07:41] Okay, cool.

Matt Todd [01:07:44] Home with us. She'll almost always come with us, I think, just because she wants to be where we're at, you know?

John Dehlin [01:07:51] Yeah.

Katie Todd [01:07:51] Yeah.

Matt Todd [01:07:51] And we have what we call the cool Sunday school class that she enjoys.

John Dehlin [01:07:56] I love this. I want to get to that. I love that. I love that. Okay, but before Julia wants to know, did you ever want to talk to your younger siblings or did you, like not talk to your siblings, to not infect them, or did that get stressful with your parents, them telling you, don't ruin your younger siblings?

Katie Todd [01:08:15] I talked. I definitely talked to my younger siblings. I think my younger sister that's in the middle, she. I don't want to speak for her, but I know she's not at an orthodox place either. But I don't think she is as interested in actually deconstructing everything and thinking about things. So I think we just have different personality types, but we definitely talked about it. And I've talked about it with my youngest sister, too, but she's quite a bit younger. So it's.

John Dehlin [01:08:46] Did you feel the urge to, like, get them out of the church, or did you feel, oh, let them have their own journey?

Katie Todd [01:08:52] I didn't feel like I wanted to get them out of the church. I just. I feel like I would have this information and I'd be like, this is so crazy. Like, I feel like I should tell you this, which I guess it could sometimes cause some problems, but it definitely wasn't from. It wasn't motivated by trying to get them to leave.

John Dehlin [01:09:13] It's such a ex Mormon impulse or doubting Mormon impulse to want to, number one, tell everyone. But number two, sometimes you feel angry and betrayed or hurt by things like patriarchy or racism or whatever, and you feel like you want to get people out. And I just think, on average, sometimes that can be effective. If that's your goal. I question the ethics of even that being your goal, but I also think it's rarely effective. It more often than not ruins your relationship and sometimes strengthens their faith. And so I think I just have to say I'm calling balls and strikes here. I think that was a wise ethical approach.

Katie Todd [01:09:56] Yeah. I think that also goes into maybe why we have such a good relationship. Because he was never forcing me or, like, putting the pressure on me to go back. And I try. I mean, I definitely am not perfect at it, but I tried to not want to convince people to leave. And so I think having mutual respect and just meeting each other where you're at and giving, you know, giving that person space to do what's best for them, even if it's different than what you would do. I think that that's the foundation.

John Dehlin [01:10:29] I think that's the theme of this whole episode, really. Just let people trust their noodle, trust their conscience, show them love and support them on their journey. Right?

Matt Todd [01:10:42] Yeah. Yeah. I think that we can all be aware of the same information and come to a different conclusion. And that's okay. There's nothing wrong with that.

John Dehlin [01:10:51] Yep. Amen, brother. Amen. I love that. That's just the world we live in. And. Yeah. Okay, so. All right, that answers the sibling question. So. Yeah. What'd you do post high school?

Life After Faith: College and New Directions

Katie Todd [01:11:05] Yeah, so I. I work with horses. I love, like, working with all kinds of animals. So I took that year, I worked as like a working student, which is kind of like an intern at a horse for like a horse facility, I thought.

John Dehlin [01:11:17] So this is like equine assisted therapy.

Katie Todd [01:11:19] No, it's just like. Like as a trainer. Like, I just worked under a trainer. Just working with. With sport horses. I thought that that's what I wanted to do. So I taught a lot of lessons, mucked a lot of stalls, rode a lot of horses, and I got pretty burned out.

Matt Todd [01:11:37] It was way better doing that, though, than trying to do that Covid. First year of college. Yeah, it was great.

John Dehlin [01:11:45] Yeah, that hurt a lot of people.

Matt Todd [01:11:47] Took a year off. Yeah, took a year off and worked

Katie Todd [01:11:49] with horses and it was really good. Cause I once again, like, it's like a mission. Yeah, it's like a horse mission.

John Dehlin [01:11:55] Yeah. Well.

Katie Todd [01:11:56] And once again, my parents weren't, like, pressuring me to go into college. To go to college. And then I decided that I wanted to go on my own. And so I decided that I wanted to go into animal science with the hopes of going to veterinary school. So I went up to Utah State up in Logan.

John Dehlin [01:12:15] Go Aggies.

Katie Todd [01:12:16] Yes. I love it up there. Yeah, I love everything about Logan in Utah State.

John Dehlin [01:12:24] Me too.

Katie Todd [01:12:26] So I've been up there. It's. Yeah, it's been like four. Four years.

John Dehlin [01:12:33] And how's Logan been for non believe? Because Logan's still 75. Utah State's 75% members of the church. Right.

Katie Todd [01:12:41] Yeah. So I think I have a little bit of a different perspective because I went up there already. Like, I had lost my testimony already, and I knew I didn't want to be involved in the church. So I've never attended, like, a YSA ward up there. But I'll just say, like, you can find your people. Like, I've. I've found a good group of friends up there, and I. Yeah. Like, I've never. I've never felt like I don't belong up there or I don't fit in. Like there. There are people up there.

John Dehlin [01:13:08] Did you go ahead and attend student wards?

Katie Todd [01:13:11] No, I never did.

John Dehlin [01:13:13] Oh, wow.

Katie Todd [01:13:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:14] And you're still able to find a friend group. How do you find a friend group in Logan? Not in your ward.

Katie Todd [01:13:21] Well, my best friend, she. We just met through mutual friends and I can't explain.

John Dehlin [01:13:27] In Logan.

Katie Todd [01:13:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:28] Cool.

Katie Todd [01:13:28] Yeah. And we're. Yeah, we're definitely at like a very similar place with like religion and church. I meet a lot of people. I'm still like, I'm still involved in horses, so I meet a lot of people at the barn and in classes and. And so yeah, there's lots of places

John Dehlin [01:13:46] to meet people also. No. Avalon Hills is an eating disorder residential treatment center in Cache Valley and they do equine assisted therapy.

Katie Todd [01:13:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:57] But also I know because I'm an aggie nerd and went there for nine years. I did nine years of grad school at Utah State. Can you believe that?

Katie Todd [01:14:04] That is crazy.

John Dehlin [01:14:05] It is crazy.

Katie Todd [01:14:06] If you're going to do it, you may as well do it there, right?

John Dehlin [01:14:08] It's cheap, it's great education. But yeah, at the time I was there they had a partnership with Washington State University for like a combined vet program. But I've seen they're building a building like a vet sciences building now to have their own veterinarian degree. Right.

Katie Todd [01:14:26] Yeah, so that's. I'm hoping to be there. So we'll see.

Matt Todd [01:14:30] She has applied to vet school in the fall and we're waiting to hear back.

John Dehlin [01:14:34] That's so cool.

Katie Todd [01:14:35] It's so scary.

John Dehlin [01:14:37] You might be in the anomaly inaugural class.

Katie Todd [01:14:39] Yeah, maybe. Well, I guess technically the inaugural class was this last year.

John Dehlin [01:14:43] Okay. But.

Katie Todd [01:14:44] But the second one. Yeah, same thing.

John Dehlin [01:14:45] But yes, it's penultimate is. The second to last is penaugural. Is that a word?

Katie Todd [01:14:51] Sure, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:14:52] That's the second inaugurated class called I don't know. Okay. It doesn't matter. Okay. So you're on, you're on track. Hopefully. Did you apply to other schools or just Utah?

Katie Todd [01:15:00] Yes, I did and it is so. Vet school is so competitive and it's saturated. So Utah's my last. Last.

Matt Todd [01:15:08] Yeah.

Katie Todd [01:15:09] My last hope for this.

Matt Todd [01:15:10] Five to three and we got two no's and we're waiting on the. The Utah State. Fingers crossed.

John Dehlin [01:15:16] Hey, life is long, you know what I mean? Yeah.

Matt Todd [01:15:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:15:19] I started my PhD at age 40. Okay.

Katie Todd [01:15:22] So I'm. Okay. Well and I. It's not uncommon for people to take like multiple cycles and so I'm sure if I don't like it's meant to be and I'll find something to do for a year.

Matt Todd [01:15:33] It's okay if she doesn't get in this year. She would be a great vet if they'll let her in.

John Dehlin [01:15:39] Okay. So really Quickly, I want to get back to your relationship and Mormon stuff. But there is a. Some would say stereotype or trope. Others would say a legitimate question around, like, can a teenager, young adult in 2026America be healthy and moral and thriving without religion? In other words, is modern young adult life so treacherous with social media, with cannabis, with alcohol, with, you know, STIs or unwanted pregnancies? Like, and I'm just being intentionally, ridiculously apocalyptic. But, like, with all these challenges and all the anxiety and depression, like, if you don't have religion, if you don't have Mormonism, you're just going to get. You're going to become, you know, lost and a drug addict and a sex worker. I'm being extreme. But, like, how have you found living what seems to be a healthy, successful life without religion at all? Have you done that?

Morality and Identity Without Religion

Katie Todd [01:16:53] I don't think anything has changed. Like, I think I'm struggling to put it into words, but it's like, I have my moral compass and I know what's right, and the church doesn't fit in that. And it's not. Like, that's not a reflection on me. That's a reflection on them and the organization. That's kind of how I view it. I know that is definitely a worry.

Katie Todd [01:17:17] I do remember in high school, one of my teachers, he asked me, he was like, so. Because I think he was kind of pushing back of, like, well, what? Like, why wouldn't you, like, murder someone? Or, like, what's gonna keep you from, like, sleeping around? And I was like, I don't even. That feels like kind of an offensive question to ask because that's not even.

Katie Todd [01:17:39] I don't know, it just. I feel like I already have, like, my moral compass and I know what's right and what's good. And so nothing has really changed since then.

John Dehlin [01:17:51] And just for the viewers and listeners, I'm not. Obviously, lots of people in the world raise healthy, happy kids without Mormonism or religion, but I think as Mormons, many of us were conditioned to think or fear that you can't be healthy, happy outside the church. Whether the church wants us to think or feel that is different than the fact that many of us do. I know I was terrified to raise my kids outside of the church, you know, even after I lost my faith. Okay, now I'm going to push back on you a tiny bit because you're saying the church didn't fit in your moral structure. But someone could argue the church gave you your moral structure.

Matt Todd [01:18:29] I think I would. I mean, my Perspective is. I think a lot of the foundation that she has probably goes back to that. But that's just my opinion.

John Dehlin [01:18:39] I mean, that's my observation.

Katie Todd [01:18:41] I'm not going to disagree with that. I'll just. Just say that it's. There are. It's. It's like, hip. It's, like, hypocritical. Like, like, obviously there's good things that I took from it, and then there's things that obviously aren't good. So, yeah, I'm not gonna disagree with that.

John Dehlin [01:18:57] What's hypocritical? Tell me what you mean by that word choice.

Katie Todd [01:19:00] Well, just like, I'm trying to think

John Dehlin [01:19:04] and it's nice you were able to concede that, because I think we. I think we just, like, we find we. We like, like, we become doctors and lawyers and PhDs and like, Mormons. Ex Mormons can just be exceptional people. Mormons and ex Mormons.

Katie Todd [01:19:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:19:22] And then if you're ex Mormon and you're really hurt by credible things, legitimate, credible things, oftentimes it's just so easy to go. It's all bad. The church is evil. The church is terrible. The church needs to be destroyed. And I'm always just like, okay, I get the trauma. If you feel that way, it's legitimate because you feel that way. And, like, didn't it do a lot of good until it didn't. Like, can there be a mindset of, I graduated? Kind of like, I rode the raft across the river and I'll leave the raft for someone else, but I don't need to destroy the raft. It got me across the river. I don't mean to be telling people that's what they need to conclude because other people have more traumatic experiences than me. But I do think that's a legitimate mindset. What do you think?

Katie Todd [01:20:09] Yeah, no, I think that that's true. I think that that's true for a lot of people. I think I, like, totally just space.

John Dehlin [01:20:18] No, and I'll just say that's true for a lot of people, not true for everyone. Right, but you're saying you're okay with this framing, that maybe graduating?

Katie Todd [01:20:27] Yeah, I think the church holds its members to a higher standard that they hold themselves to, and that's. That's what I see as hypocritical. So, yes, like, they make really good members and there's really good people in the church, and that's probably partially or, like, mostly due to the church, the church's influence. But I don't think that a lot of, like, the historical leaders held themselves to the same standard.

John Dehlin [01:20:54] Yeah, sure, yeah, that's fair. But also, it's just so complicated because I'm reading, I'm 30 episodes into my series on Joseph Smith and there's two things that are undeniable for me. Well, several things, but one is how incredibly hard it was to build a lasting faith community.

Matt Reflects on His Ongoing Belief

John Dehlin [01:21:25] When I look at what Joseph had to deal with, it's impossible to not feel admiration and respect for his resilience and how hard that job was, but also how effective he was. Because look at the scoreboard. It's a church that claims anywhere between 5 and 17 million members in 2026 worth half a trillion dollars. That's affected a lot of lives and like how many of us have that legacy? So on the one hand I see that and then on the other hand, of course I see all the horrible, painful bad things that he did. And so it's the only thing I can conclude is both.

John Dehlin [01:22:09] And yeah, I think it's impossible and inspiring and a lot of bad things happen. And that's just, I almost want to say that's life, you know?

Katie Todd [01:22:19] Yeah. I think there has to be room for both.

John Dehlin [01:22:23] Yeah. And I'm not saying marrying 14 year olds is in any way acceptable or mother daughter pairs or polyandry marrying other women married to men. Like, I'm not excusing that anyway. You're saying that's fair. You're agreeing with me. Yeah. You know, you're agreeing with John Dehlin right now.

Matt Todd [01:22:40] I can't, I can't excuse any of those things either, you know, but, but I think it's, I like the perspective of looking at it as that everybody that you look at and organizations I think kind of fall under the same umbrella is there's going to be good and bad to anything, even really bad.

John Dehlin [01:23:04] Is that fair?

Matt Todd [01:23:05] Yeah, I mean, some people are going to have a bad experience that may

John Dehlin [01:23:09] harm them seriously, like child abuse or child abuse cover ups. You're going all the way with that, right?

Matt Todd [01:23:16] Yeah. I mean, there are some things that just should not be. But on the other side, you know, there's a lot of good that happens as well. And I think that's true of anybody or any organization that we look at. I think we ought to get away from cardboard cutouts.

John Dehlin [01:23:37] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I, you know, for me, part of what bridge, you know, this is a bridge building themed episode and bridge building doesn't mean everyone has to arrive at the same conclusion. It means we need to learn to talk about hard stuff, get better at talking about hard stuff. And that's what y' all model for me.

John Dehlin [01:23:59] So that's part of what bridge building means to me, is getting better about talking about hard stuff. I think it also means seeing the gray or seeing the multicolor of things and not having everything be either divine or evil, like good or bad. It's being able to say, what's the. In this mix in the stew.

John Dehlin [01:24:19] Can we step back and acknowledge the good and the bad? If we're a believer, acknowledge the bad. If we're. Don't believe anymore, still acknowledge the good so that we're not in our mindset, always so polarized. Because I think polarization is harming relationships and society. What do you think?

Katie Todd [01:24:39] Yeah, no, I agree with that. I think one thing that comes to mind is because I go to church pretty frequently with.

John Dehlin [01:24:46] Talk about that with my family.

Katie Todd [01:24:47] Am I surprised?

John Dehlin [01:24:48] Ex Mormons that are like, I'll never step in that chapel ever again. How is it that you're willing and able to step in a church that you just have no belief in theologically and the memory.

Matt Todd [01:24:59] Know where she is and she's welcomed.

John Dehlin [01:25:02] I love this. Yeah. How is this. How is this possible?

Katie Todd [01:25:05] I don't know. I.

John Dehlin [01:25:06] No, but I mean, like. Yeah.

Katie Todd [01:25:07] Yeah. I. I mean, I guess the first thing that comes to mind, because I'll have people, like, in the ward that will come up to me, and they'll have kids that have left the church, and they just, like, express gratitude that I'm there, and they're like, oh, you need to talk to, like, my kid and get them to come here. And I'm always kind of taken aback. Cause I'm like. I feel like you should. Like, the reason I'm here is because my parents talk to me and know exactly how I'm feeling, and I want to be here. Like, I'm not doing it to gain approval or any sort of reward from them. Like, I just want to be here to spend time with them and support them. But, yeah, I think it works because I'm candid and I think everybody knows where I'm at with things.

John Dehlin [01:26:00] So you're out to your. Is this your home ward you attend, the one you grew up in in Highland?

Katie Todd [01:26:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:26:06] But you're open with everyone, but it has to be respectful.

Katie Todd [01:26:09] It's. Yeah, it's super respectful. Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:26:12] So you're not trying to take other people's faith away when you go to church?

Katie Todd [01:26:16] No, and I think I'm pretty quiet. Like, occasionally I'll make a comment, like, in. Cause we have, we have like a Sunday school class that is. Is it gospel doctrine?

Matt Todd [01:26:28] Yeah, I mean, it started out as a gospel essentials class, but, you know, we, we do kind of follow just the typical gospel doctrine lessons now. But it's a, it's a small, kind of intimate class. We just meet in the, you know, the bishop's office and there's as many as we can cram in there. People like to come to this class, but I think everybody knows each other well and where they stand and where they're at and they recognize that people are in different places, you know, faith wise. And Katie's very welcome there and, you know, people will solicit. What do you think about that, Katie? You know, occasionally it's a neat place to be.

John Dehlin [01:27:13] I mean, that's. Again, just like I was expressing. Marvel at your reaction to Katie. That's like what I want every Mormon ward to be. And I'm so thrilled to hear that it's possible. Are you feeling emotional again?

Matt Todd [01:27:27] I'm just grateful. I love our ward, you know, I love. I just.

John Dehlin [01:27:33] You have a special ward?

Matt Todd [01:27:34] We do have a special ward.

John Dehlin [01:27:35] You've been there a couple decades now?

Matt Todd [01:27:37] Yeah, we've been there 20 plus years, since Katie was one, when we moved into that neighborhood there.

John Dehlin [01:27:44] Yeah. Wow. So you've built up this capital with this ward community that's really matured in a way where the ward is healthy.

Matt Todd [01:27:55] I think so relatively. You know, everybody's got their, you know, like I said, any organization there's always going to be good and bad. But by and large, I sure get a lot out of that ward and neighborhood. They're wonderful.

John Dehlin [01:28:07] I love that. Well, I just love. I want every ward to have. It's like I desire all to receive it. You know what I mean? I love this. I want this. I want every Mormon ward to be like this. I don't need people to leave the church or lose their faith. I want people to be able to stay or leave and be respected either

Matt Todd [01:28:26] way or wherever they're at.

John Dehlin [01:28:26] Right?

Matt Todd [01:28:27] Wherever they're at, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:28:29] How do you. Let me ask you this question, Matt. There's this credible fear that believers naturally have. That doubt or history or information or criticism is a virus that spreads and infects people. Now, obviously your daughter doesn't believe anymore and it hasn't infected you or your wife. So obviously that's a bad metaphor. Although it's not a bad metaphor because viruses don't take everyone down. Some viruses get people sick, some viruses don't. And I'm Sure. Katie, you don't like the idea of truth or your perspective being viewed as a virus. Is that true? Yeah, but I mean, you know, go with the metaphor for a second.

Katie Todd [01:29:08] Yeah, I get it. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:09] From a believer's standpoint, doubt or history or criticisms of the church are like a virus. How do you, and I would even say your ward members resist? Do you conceptualize it that way? Or if you don't, how do you frame it so that you don't treat her like the enemy? You know what I mean? You or your ward or your wife with your kids is another example. Right. So many parents are like. Like, you need to stay away from your younger siblings because you'll infect them with the doubt virus. Right. But you don't. It just doesn't seem like you see it that way. How do you see it?

Matt Todd [01:29:48] Yeah, I mean, I think everybody has felt that at some point, but.

John Dehlin [01:29:54] Okay, so you have felt that.

Matt Todd [01:29:56] I think we've all felt that at some point. But to me, that when that feeling does creep in, I think it's important to recognize that's coming from a place of fear. And I think generally speaking, when we do something motivated from fear, that's typically not going to be a good thing.

Matt Todd [01:30:19] And so I think I just typically choose to look at it as most people are going to be exposed to these ideas somewhere somehow, anyway. I just feel like we should, you know, let's do this in a way where we can. I think the overriding principle to me is let's love people.

Matt Todd [01:30:51] Let's try to not be afraid. You know, help people where they're at and let them make their own choices, whatever those choices may be. Continue to love them, appreciate them, no matter what they choose. I think that's, to me, that's what the gospel of Jesus Christ is actually about. To not be afraid. To not be afraid.

John Dehlin [01:31:14] It's almost like Jesus's argument in the pre existence, like, let people choose.

Matt Todd [01:31:19] Let people choose.

John Dehlin [01:31:20] Right. Is that right?

Matt Todd [01:31:22] I think so, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:31:24] Okay, let me read you a quote, Julia. It comes from an LGBT standpoint. And so she's like, man, I wish more parents would respond to their Mormon LGBT kids. Like, you know, like Matt did to her daughter who lost her faith. Right. But so Julius shared this quote, and let me be clear, this is a quote from former prophet Russell M. Nelson. I'm not trying to get you to talk ill of the Lord's anointed or even trying to put you between this quote and Nelson, but I do, at least. I mean, there's Two possible options. Well, three, I agree with that quote. Or B, I think Nelson's wrong. Or C, I read that quote differently than maybe some would. So let me read you the quote from former prophet Russell Nelson, and then I want to hear your reaction to it. Is that okay?

Matt Todd [01:32:15] Sure.

John Dehlin [01:32:16] So I think this is a quote according to Julia from Nelson. While divine love can be called perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal, it cannot correctly be characterized as unconditional. In other words, there needs to be conditional love. That's how some would interpret that quote. Love should be conditional. In other words. And I'm saying how someone might interpret this, like, no, no, no, I'm going to be stern with my child or kick them out or make them feel bad, because love is conditional. Love is, you know, you do what's righteous, and love is a consequence of that. But there needs to be tough love where you're mean or harsh or strict or punishing, because love is conditional, not unconditional. So, yeah. How do you respond to that quote?

Matt Todd [01:33:08] Yeah, I don't know that I've heard that quote before. It would be interesting to hear the context, you know, when it was given, what not. But, I mean, my feeling is love ought to be enduring, and I don't know that it necessarily should have conditions on. I mean, there are times when we do need to correct or discipline or, you know, and it's a fine line, and I think we mess it up half the time, you know, as parents, when we're trying to do that.

Matt Todd [01:33:44] But I think at the end of the day, you really want your child to understand that no matter what, I'm going to love you no matter which path you choose. I feel for Julia, you know, just kind of that background of if I had a parent, if I had a child that was struggling with LGBT LGTB identity, and what do I do with this? I mean, I would hope the way I would respond would be, you're going to do what you're going to do. But I want you to know that I love you no matter what, and I want you to never forget that. That's what I would hope that they would feel.

John Dehlin [01:34:34] Julie said she's crying, so. Because I think that's not the most common response. And I'm not saying Mormon parents are bad. I just think they've got that fear of, like, oh, my gosh, if they're gay, then blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I've got to act in a. In a harsh way.

Matt Todd [01:34:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:34:55] Follow thought.

Matt Todd [01:34:56] I. I mean, I. I can see where that comes from. Because I. I know I've felt the fear myself, just in the things that I've been through. And again, I have to catch myself and recognize that's coming from a place of fear and that's. I shouldn't take counsel from my fears, you know?

John Dehlin [01:35:17] Well, we're gonna plaster this all over the TikTok and Instagram and Facebook because Julia just said he's such a good dad. That's what Julia is saying.

Matt Todd [01:35:26] Katie knows all my faults. She knows I'm not perfect.

John Dehlin [01:35:29] I don't think she's. She'd bring you on here if she was obsessed with your faults.

Katie Todd [01:35:33] I think the other thing about this is because he gives me space and understands where I'm coming from, I'm able to understand where he's coming from, and I totally understand why Mormon parents, they panic, and it is out of fear. And I think it often helps, like, if you're having a communication or, like, a conversation with your parent and you're, like, explaining. And I've asked him this, like, does this make you feel this way? Like, I'm trying to understand how it's affecting him, and I don't think I was interested in understanding how it affected him until it'd been, like, a couple years that I had, like, deconstructed everything. Yeah, I don't. Because he just always gave me the space and the encouragement to communicate how I was feeling. And I feel like I didn't do the same thing for him until after I had kind of already thought through everything.

John Dehlin [01:36:36] Yeah. And I'm just gonna. I'm gonna now speak to believing Mormon parents out there, and I know you may be reluctant to take any advice from, you know, Mormon Voldemort, but trust me, I've spoken to tens of thousands of ex Mormons and the ones who resign from the church, hate the church, would never want to ever go to church again, and who would, like, be a torment to their family relationships?

How Parents Can Support Departing Children

John Dehlin [01:37:13] Almost always. They do that when they feel rejected by their parents and demeaned and mistreated and unloved. We create angry, bitter, you know, disruptive ex Mormons by how we treat them. And I want you to, you know, rewind if you need to, or watch this episode in full at your own leisure. What did you just hear? Katie doesn't believe anymore. And she's got a great relationship with her parents. She doesn't try and take the faith away of her siblings. She is still a member, and she still attends half of the Sundays of a given month.

John Dehlin [01:38:02] Why? Because her parents didn't reject her, didn't shame her, didn't make her feel terrible, but said, we trust you, we're not going to act in fear and we're going to let you have your journey and we're going to love you. What, unconditionally? Within reason.

John Dehlin [01:38:20] I just think that's the answer for you. You believing Mormon parent. You want the best outcome with your doubting or disbelieving child. The best answer for you and for them is love and acceptance and charity. I think it's the best outcome for everybody. Is. Am I wrong?

Matt Todd [01:38:43] No. I think that to me is the essence of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That's it.

John Dehlin [01:38:49] It's also Jesus. Right? Keep going. How so how did Jesus. So like Greg Mattson or Cardinalis or whatever, like Mormon apologists would say, no, Jesus said, I come to divide mother from child. Right. There's the. They can find quotes in the New Testament. They like, mock Teddy. They call it Teddy Bear Jesus. And they say, no, no, Jesus came with a sword and he turned the tables. So you could be harsh. And I'm not again asking you to address my characterization of them. And I don't mean to say that what I just said is really what they think. I'm exaggerating to set up a point, which is, what's your understanding of Jesus? Given that some would say he flipped, cursed an olive tree and said he came to divide mother from child. How do you interpret the Gospel of Jesus Christ as it relates to this scenario?

Matt Todd [01:39:47] That's a good question. I mean, I feel like we have enough of the divisiveness already in the world. And I just feel like if we're going to work on something, let's work on loving each other, treating each other better, understanding one another. I just think better things come from taking that approach than any alternative.

John Dehlin [01:40:14] And that approach is what?

Matt Todd [01:40:17] To try to love, to just try to love and understand.

John Dehlin [01:40:20] Listen, go one level deeper on what love means. I'll tell you. Kindness, trust, connection, closeness, like, keep going.

Matt Todd [01:40:34] To me, it also has to do with just acceptance of the reality of the way things are, that I'm okay letting Katie or anybody else make their own choices. And I'm not going to nitpick you over those choices. You know where I stand. You know, you know what my standards are, and it's okay that yours are different. I think that's a part of it.

Katie Todd [01:41:03] I think it's also like validation, like feeling validated and understood and that people believe you. Like, even if we disagree, you believe that I'm being authentic and true to myself. And I think that that's the biggest impactful thing.

John Dehlin [01:41:21] Yeah, because that's. Thank you for sharing that, Katie. Because that's like one of the most stereotypical tropes that believers tend to want to put on people who lost their faith, that they never believed in the first place, that they wanted to sin, that they were just looking for an excuse to sin, or that they're bitter, or that they're angry because ultimately those are all insulting. But what's even worse is you're ignoring that so many people leave the church as a matter of conscience, as a matter of love, as a matter of courage, as a matter of integrity. In other words, they're almost living truer to the values their parents or their church gave them. It's an expression of the values, the positive values they got from their parents or their church. Am I putting those words in wrong?

Katie Todd [01:42:14] No, I agree. 1% hundred. And I would extend that. Those are the values that I got even in my LDS private school. Like, yeah, that's just what I was taught. And I. I like, implemented those.

John Dehlin [01:42:26] And also love for truth. Like, I. Yeah, when I lost my faith, I basically said Mormonism led me out of Mormonism because it taught me truth matters. I'll say, what is truth? Tis the fairest gem. Do what is right. Let the consequence follow. And that's. That's how I ended up here. You know what I mean? Honestly, I still haven't tried beer. Like, it's not because I want descend. You know what I mean? It's. That's not it.

Matt Todd [01:42:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:42:50] And it's not because I didn't believe. Because I believed. You know what I mean?

Katie Todd [01:42:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:42:54] Yeah. But also, I'm not telling you your beliefs are illegitimate. That. That's probably nice, right?

Matt Todd [01:42:59] It is nice.

John Dehlin [01:43:00] Yeah.

Matt Todd [01:43:00] I. I think just that we can all recognize that, you know, we can come to different conclusions. We don't feel a need to push each other, you know, that. That we can just. We can understand each other and just live together in peace and harmony. Why can't it be that way?

John Dehlin [01:43:22] Yeah. Like, why can't it be that way? Like, why is this so hard? You know? And I think part of the reason it's hard is we don't have enough role models. And I think that's why I just love today's episode. Like, you could say after 2100 episodes, I'd be bored of this stuff, but I've got, like, hair standing up on my arms because this is so powerful and so beautiful.

John Dehlin [01:43:47] Yeah, I said it. So what else do y' all want to say about where you are now and counseling to nonbelievers and to believers? I think we've done a lot of counseling along the way, but I want to give you each a chance to give advice to quote your own side or to the other side or any other parts of your story you want to share. I want to give you all the time to finish whatever you wanted to share or we can wrap it up, whatever you want.

Advice for Believers and Nonbelievers Alike

Matt Todd [01:44:17] I mean, the only thing that comes to mind, and I think I've already said this before, but from the perspective of a parent who's just trying the best that they know how, just. And I continue to try to do this, I'm not perfect at it, but to just try and take things from a perspective of faith, don't take counsel for my fears.

Matt Todd [01:44:48] Let people have their own choices and try and give them good advice. We still do this. I still give Katie advice on. And here's what I would do, you know, in a given situation or whatnot. And I think she, you know, she often will listen to what I have to say, but she's going to make her own decision with any given thing, and I just need to be okay with that. And I need to be able to step back and say, you know what? At the end of the day, she's going to be her own person. She's going to make her own path, and I'm going to be dead and gone someday, and she's going to continue on.

Matt Todd [01:45:30] Hopefully she'll have some kids of her own one day. And. And I would hope that she would be able to instill and teach them things that would be valuable to them, you know, that she might have an experience similar to maybe what I've had as a parent. I mean, there's nothing like just trying to be a parent and raise kids the best you know how. That's all you can do, is just the best you know how.

John Dehlin [01:46:00] That's all I can do. Amen, Katie.

Katie Todd [01:46:06] I think it's interesting because listening to him talk about that, I think the same things are applicable on the other side of the. Of the spectrum. And just. I think the biggest thing that I've learned is the importance of validating the other person, even if we disagree and just recognizing that they're doing the best that they can and they're being authentic to themselves. And even though we might disagree, we don't need to change each other. We don't need to try to convince each other of our different perspectives and just giving each other room to do that. I also think it's important to continue to have room to change. I think our relationship has definitely evolved and a lot of things have changed since it first started. And I think that's just a part of the process.

John Dehlin [01:47:02] Love it. Yeah. You can reduce it to the same rules for both sides. Validate, love, respect, empathize and differentiate, but stay in connection, build on common beliefs, but also learn to talk about differences and learn to be okay with differences. It really is the same rules for both sides, isn't it?

Katie Todd [01:47:32] It is.

John Dehlin [01:47:33] Yeah, it is. And I think believers sometimes feel just so hurt or shamed or guilty that someone lost their faith or defensive. And then, you know, people lost their faith, feel angry or like they have to justify or accusatory or, you know, like they want to be understood. And I think that drives a lot of the unproductive conversations.

Honest Conversations About Doubt and Truth

John Dehlin [01:47:59] Let me ask you this. And Matt, it's okay if you're just like, yeah, let's not go there, because I don't even know if it's the right thing to go. But like, I love the idea, believe it, or of believers having role models for knowing the difficult parts of the church, the history stuff or the, you know, but still believing. Do you want to share, like picking up three or five topics and say, I know that people find X thing to be a problem. Here's how I work that through in my mind. Do you want to do that or would that pollute what's otherwise a perfect, literally a perfect episode?

Matt Todd [01:48:39] You can go through any of those that you want, want. And I think I'm relatively familiar with the facts as they stand. But to me, at the end of the day, earlier in the conversation, you talked about kind of the utilitarian versus the truth side thing. And to me, there are very few things that I know.

Matt Todd [01:49:07] And the things that I, that I would be comfortable saying I know are the things that I know from my own personal experience. And those things have to do with just kind of guidance in my own life, strength that I receive from spending time in the scriptures, doing the things, you know, that you do as a faithful Latter Day Saint.

Matt Todd [01:49:31] But there are a ton of things that I don't know, but I believe or I hope, and that's kind of where I am. You know, I just feel like there is enough to keep me rooted in the gospel and able to choose to believe that holds me there.

Matt Todd [01:50:01] And it's definitely faith based. I mean, to me it's. There's a balance between the things that. That would support and the things that would say, no, that's all just a bunch of garbage, you know? And in my mind, I've felt like it has to be kind of closely balanced for there to be a real choice there for me personally to be able to have a real decision to be able to.

Matt Todd [01:50:34] And. And what I. What I do is I choose to believe in spite of. In spite of the things that are. That don't make sense to me, that I don't totally understand. But in spite of those things, I think because of. Because of the good things that I've seen flow into my life, that's kind of where I'm at.

John Dehlin [01:50:58] And if you don't mind, and I know, Katie, you're about to say something, so I want to hear, but let me just say quickly, I heard two things there. One is what I call epistemic humility, where it's like, you know, this is where I tend to believe, but I'm open. I don't have this certainty. And that allows you some flexibility, I think, which is quite useful. Allows you to bend and not break, belief wise. And then the second thing I heard is that you lean more towards a utilitarian belief than one that's dogmatic.

Matt Todd [01:51:31] I think I probably do, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:51:34] Yeah. And again, I think that's a solid way, because theology, doctrine, history, our understanding of it, they all change.

Matt Todd [01:51:42] Yeah. There's plenty of things there that can make you scratch your head and think. That doesn't make sense to me. I don't really understand that.

John Dehlin [01:51:49] Okay. I love that.

Matt Todd [01:51:49] I'm okay with that.

John Dehlin [01:51:50] I mean, that really. That really answers any specific issue. We could take issues one by one, but that framework can really explain almost any problem into not being so much of a problem, right?

Matt Todd [01:52:05] I think so. I think so. Just to recognize that there are things that we're not going to understand that are not going to make sense, that are going to seem wrong. And some of them could very well be wrong, you know, because we're all humans. Prophets are human. Sometimes we tend to put them on a pedestal, but we probably do that more than we should, that they are human beings and they're going to make mistakes just like the rest of us. Yeah, I think that's. That's the reality of the situation, in my mind, anyway.

John Dehlin [01:52:44] All right, your turn, Katie.

Katie Todd [01:52:46] Yeah. The one thing I was gonna say is I think he's more familiar with church history than I am, which is interesting.

John Dehlin [01:52:54] Wow.

Katie Todd [01:52:55] Yeah.

Matt Todd [01:52:56] Maybe because I'm older.

Katie Todd [01:52:58] Yeah. No, I think that he is So I think seeing him, that he's put in the time and effort to research these things and really think about it, I think adds to, like, his credibility and I can take him at his word.

John Dehlin [01:53:13] Oh, wow.

Katie Todd [01:53:13] So I think that that's been very.

John Dehlin [01:53:16] That's remarkable because a lot of believing Mormon parents, for example, just don't want to learn. Don't tell me. Don't infect me.

Matt Todd [01:53:24] Yeah, I don't want to hear about it. Because when you dig into any of those topics that are troubling, it's unsettling to me, anyway. That's been my experience. It's unsettling, it's heavy, and you kind of have to wade your way through it. But each time I've done that, I come back to a point of I'm okay with the big picture, even though there are things that don't make sense to me. Can't understand that, but the big picture, I'm okay with.

John Dehlin [01:54:01] Yeah. And it's weird because again, I mentioned this a lot, but, like, I'm reading John Turner's biography on Joseph Smith, and it's not making me believe more, but it is making me have more empathy and compassion and respect for Joseph Smith than I had before. So in other words, it makes me feel more favorable towards Joseph Smith, more empathetic towards the church and even towards its modern leaders. When you just really see in detail how it all happened and unfolded, it's funny and it's interesting and it's miraculous and it's tragic and it's terrible. And guess what? That's a lot like my life. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean?

Matt Todd [01:54:43] To see any individual more as a man or woman with all of the good and all of the bad and just every, you know, nobody is a cardboard cutout.

John Dehlin [01:54:54] And again, people are gonna be like, yeah, but he dated 14. You know, he had sex with 14 year olds. Or he was a predator. And I'm just like, yeah, and the more you're empowered, the more you're susceptible to those things on average. And that's part of the human journey. Not to excuse it. It's horrific. Abuse is terrible, horrific, inexcusable. And look at Jeffrey Epstein. Like, pretty much every powerful, important person in the United States was freaking in his Rolodex, Right? Because power leads to a lot of bad stuff. And Joseph had power not to excuse him. And not to say everyone who has power is a predator, because they're not. Okay, Katie.

Katie Todd [01:55:37] No, yeah, I agree. That makes a lot of sense. And I. Yeah, yeah, I'm trying to think what could have done.

John Dehlin [01:55:46] No, no, it's good. It's good. You're doing great. You're doing great. Okay, so just to kind of wrap things up. This has been really powerful. I really love how things are. So. Okay, let me ask you this, Katie.

Church Membership, Community, and Resignation

John Dehlin [01:56:03] Is there. So, like, there have been, like, I. In a moment of vulnerability? Well, I thought, you know, I've lived in my neighborhood, like, seven or eight years. Never attended my ward. Like, I'd like to kind of get to know some of my neighbors and, like, just see what church is like again. And, you know, not. Not become a member in good standing again. But, like, I'd kind of want to visit my word once just to see what it's like and to meet people and to be friendly. Right. Just again, in the spirit of bridge building.

John Dehlin [01:56:34] So I, you know, I reached out to my bishop. I still haven't heard back. It's been, like, months. But, like, so many ex Mormons were furious at me, saying I was disgusting, saying I was a traitor, just because I, you know. But you're going to church, so let me take it one step further for you. Is there any world where, like, let's say, you fall in love with someone and they're faithful, you're like, oh, you know, we love each other. Okay, you're saying no already?

Katie Todd [01:57:02] Yeah, that wouldn't work.

John Dehlin [01:57:03] What? What wouldn't?

Katie Todd [01:57:05] I couldn't. Yeah. I don't think that, like, my future partner, I don't think I could have a relationship with somebody that is active and believing in the church. I don't know why that's the line. Because I'm thinking about it and I'm like, well, I have that relationship with my parents and, like, a lot of my family, but I think it would be really difficult for me because I think I would. Well, and I guess this goes back to it. I feel like I would always be trying to drag him out, and he'd always be trying to drag me in, and that just wouldn't work.

John Dehlin [01:57:40] I get it. Well, what's kept you from resigning? Like, still going to church but resigning your membership?

Katie Todd [01:57:45] You know, that's a great question. I don't know. So, yeah, I'm not sure. I've thought about it a few times. I've come close a few times. I just haven't. I think it feels like a big step, and it feels final. I also, maybe some of it is a subconscious worry of how it would affect my family if they would feel how that would negatively affect them,

John Dehlin [01:58:17] and

Katie Todd [01:58:17] just for me personally, I don't think resigning my name would do. I don't think it would have a big impact on me. So I just haven't done it.

John Dehlin [01:58:27] I mean, it's like the church takes you out of their database. They still keep you in their database. Right. So they're just a field on a record in a database. But you know, I will say that like I'm in a lawsuit with the church right now. They're trying to sue us or they're threatening to sue us. And we had a mediator yesterday who was Catholic from Dallas and she's like, oh yeah, I stopped going to church a long time ago. But she would have never thought to resign. Like in most Christian traditions in the United States, Lutheran, Baptist, Presbyterian, Evangelical, even if you lose your faith or leave your church, you don't resign.

John Dehlin [01:59:04] You just don't go. Or maybe you go on holidays. But like this idea of needing to resign or feeling the need to resign is actually pretty uniquely Mormon. For good or for bad. I'm not saying it's good or bad, it's just unique. There's no rule in religious American life that says you have to resign when you stop going or don't believe. And you haven't stopped going.

Katie Todd [01:59:27] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:59:28] Yeah. So I mean, that's interesting.

Katie Todd [01:59:31] I think maybe part of this is too. Cause I know a lot of people resign. So the missionaries don't like contact them or they don't have family members reaching out. And that hasn't been a problem for me. So it's not causing me anything issues. So that's probably part of it too.

John Dehlin [01:59:48] Yeah. And I always just need to give these disclaimers. If you hate the church, that's valid. If you want to resign, that's valid. If you never want to step into a church again, that's valid. Like part of what we're saying here is that trust your experience, be kind, but do you. And every choice, every path deserves love and respect. And we're just all going to do better when we treat each other that way. So just because I'm trying to shine a light on other possibilities, some that are bridge building and less polarizing, less extreme, more nuanced, does not believe that even I think there's any one right path or preferential paths.

John Dehlin [02:00:30] I just think everyone's got to just have their journey. I think that's just it. And I just want to show lots of different types of journeys instead of just, just a particular journey. That's all in any direction. Yeah. Okay, well, I will say that this may be my favorite sort of like mixed faith family episode I've ever recorded because we got it in two hours. We've got great video and audio quality, and y' all were just fantastic. And people love the parent child dynamic. And by the way, we've done phenomenal parent child episodes that I don't want to say this is my favorite, but I do love that we got it under two hours, and I think that's actually almost unheard of. Anyway, thank you so much to both of you. Thanks to you, Matt Todd, for being willing to come into Voldemort's Den.

Matt Todd [02:01:30] You know, you're welcome. This is actually the second time that we've met. You won't remember this Thrive, right? But we met at Thrive. Was it like 2022?

Closing Reflections and Farewell

Katie Todd [02:01:41] Yeah, 2022.

John Dehlin [02:01:42] Now, which thrive was that? Do you remember it? Was it the Salt Palace?

Matt Todd [02:01:45] It was at the Provo Library.

John Dehlin [02:01:48] Okay, I remember that one. Yeah, that was in the fall of 2022.

Matt Todd [02:01:52] Yeah, she wanted to go. She asked me if I'd come with her, and I. Sure, I'll go with you.

John Dehlin [02:01:57] That's amazing.

Matt Todd [02:01:58] It was. It was a neat experience.

John Dehlin [02:02:02] That's the one Tiffany Rowe gave a keynote at. And Nemo was there. Is that right? Yeah, that was a good one. That's cool. Yeah. Well, good to see you guys again. And by the way, there is a Thrive coming up in St. George. I don't know if this will air before or after, but, yeah, there's going to be amazing thrive in St. George in the later part of this February 2026. And it's got just. Sam Young's going to be. Jeremy Reynolds is going to be there. Brandi Bell is going to be there. I think Julie Hanks is speaking. Greg Prince is speaking. So many amazing presenters are going to be there. So if you want to have a great relationship with your believing parent or disbelieving child, go to Thrive. Right.

Matt Todd [02:02:52] Invite them to come with you. We were not the only ones there who were a believer and a nonbeliever. It was fun to see them that there were others in that same situation besides just us.

John Dehlin [02:03:03] Yeah, yeah. And yeah, you can check out Thrive at Thrive Beyond Mormonism. ThriveBeyondReligion.com Check that out if you want to host your own Thrive or attend another Thrive. This is not a Thrive commercial, but

Katie Todd [02:03:18] since you mentioned it, yeah, it was influential and impactful.

John Dehlin [02:03:23] That's great. All right. And also, Katie Todd, I think you more than anyone made this happen because you applied and did the video with Your dad and all that. I hope it was good for you.

Katie Todd [02:03:35] Yeah, no, this has been awesome.

John Dehlin [02:03:36] Oh good. Yeah. Well, Julia says this episode is so good. So you've got the John and the Julia thumbs up really quickly. Please subscribe right now on YouTube and Spotify. That really helps. We really want to get to 300,000 subscribers. Thanks to everyone who donates to make Mormon Stories and the Oba Stories foundation possible.

John Dehlin [02:03:56] And if you're not a donor, our ad revenue is in decline for whatever reason. I don't really care, but it does make things financially tighter and our donation revenue is in decline because I'm not harping on it all the time. I'm just getting tired of all this fundraising. So if you value this content and you want to see it continue, the way to do that is to go to mormonstories.org donate and become a monthly donor. Enough said. Also, if you want, if you think you've got a great bridge building episode or a great interesting Mormon story, we would love to have you apply. We do get over a thousand applicants, but we only find about 50 a year that we feel like are going to be really good for our audience at the time.

John Dehlin [02:04:39] So we have a low acceptance rate not because we don't get great stories, but because we're looking for stories that are going to connect in a special way and there's a lot of duplication and a lot of stories that we've told a lot. And so if you feel like you've got a unique Mormon story, if you're a great storyteller and you feel passionately about your Mormon story, just go to MormonStories.org apply. You'll fill out a quick form, record a three minute video.

John Dehlin [02:05:11] If you want to know the secret to getting accepted, it's to be a great storyteller with a great story story and to demonstrate that you watch and listen to enough Mormon stories that you understand why our audience would find your story valuable. If you're just like I had X thing happened and I think it's an important story but you really can't don't have a sense for how common your story is or what might be exciting or needed or unique about it, knowing our audience, then you might not. But in this case, how often do we have a believing parent willing to come on with a non believing adult child come into the Voldemort's den and really tell they keep why are you laughing when I say Voldemort?

John Dehlin [02:06:00] Why do you keep laughing when I say Mormon? What it's obvious. I'm just speaking facts here. Sorry. So, yeah, so, like, this is a cool story and hopefully you can see why we picked it. Like, I think it's pretty obvious today why we picked the story. So if you've got a story, if you're a storyteller like this, I don't want to set too high of a bar. Apply mormonstories.org apply. We would love to consider. And if we don't consider you, it's not because you're not an amazing storyteller or don't have an amazing story. It's because we get so many applications. We can't. You can't choose them all.

John Dehlin [02:06:37] So don't feel bad. We're doing our best and, you know, take a risk. But who knows, Maybe your application will lead to good things even if you're not accepted. Or we may reach out to you later or you apply another time with a different angle. You know, lots could happen in this world, but please apply if you're interested. Thanks for your support. Be good to each other, be kind to each other, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care, everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.