Introduction and Overview of Danish Mormon Scandal

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Delind. It's December 12, 2024 and today we have kind of a shocking and disturbing story for you. Although it's another in a very long line of stories we have brought to you on Mormon Stories podcast about sexual abuse and sexual coverups within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints or within the Mormon Church.

John Dehlin [00:00:29] One of the headlines we chose for today is Denmark Reacts to Local Mormon Abuse Cover ups. Another title we have is Faith, Hope and Rape, which is, I believe, the name of a documentary series done in Denmark covering a case where again, we have a member of the Mormon Church raped and, or abused.

John Dehlin [00:00:51] And the Mormon Church apparently, from what I understand so far doing its best to protect the perpetrators at the expense of the victims and, or to cover up. But that's just my brief understanding of what's going on. I'm going to be learning about this story along with you.

John Dehlin [00:01:09] But, but of course, all of the appropriate trigger warnings. If you're sensitive to matters of rape and abuse and cover ups, of course we encourage you to practice self care and to manage whoever you think might be within eyeshot or earshot of today's episode.

John Dehlin [00:01:30] We're super grateful to have with us the Maven. Maven is kind of the reporter in terms of Mormon Stories podcast. She helped research and learn about this story and to my pleasant surprise, she was able to get to local people from Denmark to, to be on this podcast to discuss this story. So Maven, welcome. Hey everybody, welcome back to Mormon Stories Podcast.

Maven [00:01:58] Thank you. I'm happy to be here.

John Dehlin [00:01:59] I wish it was on more pleasant circumstances, of course, but these stories are important, so thanks for getting into this.

Maven [00:02:05] Right, right. They're important to cover and, and I'm, I'm glad to see the coverage that this is getting. We've got a different country. So what's interesting about this to me is just seeing the church trying a lot of the same types of techniques that we've seen and we've covered in past podcasts, but in a different country where there are different laws and different protections available or, or that are trying to be available and, and the church doesn't have as much influence over there, but not for, not for lack of trying. So, yeah, I'll go ahead and pull up the slides if that's.

John Dehlin [00:02:40] Yeah, let's jump in.

Maven [00:02:41] Let's start there.

John Dehlin [00:02:42] Okay.

Maven [00:02:42] Okay. So Faith, Hope and Rape, that is the name of the documentary. I'll come over here. And again, just like John had mentioned the, the trigger warning here. These are the things that I noticed, just like a real quick, quick overview is that the. This is another story yet again, where the church knows about ongoing sexual assault, where the abuser is getting very minor punishment, they fail to report it to proper authorities. And of course, they do not protect and support the victim, not just from additional years of abuse, but once it was over, and really support. And then this is yet another case where it does become public, as much as the church likes to keep these things in house.

Maven [00:03:26] And when it does become public, the church does a lot of backpedaling to try to preserve its reputation. The. These are some of the headlines here. So these are translated over into. Into English from Danish. So Danish Rape Case Shocks Experts. And in the. The subtitle here, it says, man sentenced to Only One Year of Silence in the Mormon Church. I think that that's a translation for disfellowship meant so current members, that's how they would understand that. But to our, our never Mormon audience, I don't know. John, do you want to explain disfellowshipment? I feel like you're really good at these, like, short.

John Dehlin [00:04:08] Yeah. So excommunication is getting kicked out of the church as if you were never a member, canceling any baptism or blessings or marriage or anything. It's basically consigning you to the equivalent of Mormon hell. That's what the church did to me because I talked about things publicly on my podcast the church didn't like.

John Dehlin [00:04:28] And it's basically what the church does to people who fight for marginalized groups. So whether you're fighting for children like Sam Young or better mental health like Natasha Hover Parker or potentially Julie Diazevedo Hanks, or whether you're fighting for truth and transparency and honesty in history like Jeremy Runnels or Bill Real or others, excommunication is what you get for that. Disfellowshipment is what you can get. It's stopping short of excommunication. It's basically the equivalent of a slap on the wrist. And basically, you might not. You know, you will have. You will still remain a member. You'll be kind of silenced in the church and you'll have some rights or privileges withheld, such as taking the sacrament or going to the temple or praying or speaking in public, and it's temporary. And then within a matter of weeks or months, usually your privileges get restored. That's how I would describe disfellowship in Maven.

Maven [00:05:28] Right. And so the, the silence part is really just referring to the public prayer and speaking in sacrament or teaching lessons. And as we can see in this case, it was for a year, which I guess maybe is longer than normal, but still that's.

Maven [00:05:45] That's all it was. I'm going to go to. So the next slide here. This goes into the aftermath, and this is also where our guests can really fill in not just the impact of the documentary itself, but the effect that it's having across the country and the implications for their own laws and really how they want to protect victims, regardless of what institution is involved. So this headline here says, minister of Religion is initiates supervisory investigation of the Mormon Church. His name is Morten Dahlin, maybe a distant relative. John of yours potentially orders the supervisory investigation of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in Denmark, with the potential outcome of the church losing its status as a registered and acknowledged faith.

Government Scrutiny of the Church in Denmark

Maven [00:06:36] This is a really big deal, I think. I don't know if it was Denmark. I actually think it was the Netherlands. I know the Jehovah's Witnesses have experienced something similar in one of the Scandinavian countries due to their shunning policy. And I think it's a really great thing to see when other countries are willing to put all of their population above I think, the really cruel restrictions and religion can do. So let me bring on the next slide and I will introduce our two guests here. So the first person I reached out to is a former bishop. As we know, in Mormonism, once a bishop, always a bishop.

Meeting the Former Bishop and Documentary Background

Maven [00:07:15] So this is Lessa Milso, and he can correct my pronunciation there. I reached out to Bishop Milso. He was someone who appeared on the documentary, and he kind of, I think, is a good liaison for the insider church information that church members are often not willing to give. We tend to want to make the church look the best, and often it's people who are deconstructing or maybe have a foot out the door who are able and willing to be more honest. I'll let Bishop Milso explain more about his, or I guess where he's standing with faith and the church and how he came into contact with Michael over this whole case.

Maven [00:07:56] Because actually, maybe I should say this. So from what I understand, the population of Denmark is close to 6 million people. And the church statistics report about 4, 4,500 to 5,000 members, if I recall correctly. But from Bishop Mauso and also from another former Mormon Dean, it seems like maybe it's average, maybe a thousand members. So just 1,000 members actively in the country. Yet this story has blown up and become so big.

Maven [00:08:28] And I think that's really special. So I'm going to go ahead and bring on the stage Bishop Malsol, do you want to give us. Yes, correct. Anything, Add anything else you'd like and then we'll, we'll bring on a journalist, Michael Teschl.

Lasse Meilsøe [00:08:40] Yeah, thanks for the introduction, Maven. And yeah, so I, I was born into the church here in Denmark. My parents were members and I've grown up and have had a traditional, you know, upbringing as a non Utah or non American LDS member. And my engagement was because of some of the knowledge that I gained gradually that led me to be in contact with Michael. And I think what's important to say about Michael May, if you don't mind bringing up the, the next slide because I just want to give a. I, I, Michael and I did not know each other until a couple of months ago.

Lasse Meilsøe [00:09:23] And, and, and so I think it's important for the listeners not from Denmark to understand how important Michael is to the Denmark, which is a critical voice to, to someone whose story might otherwise not be told and also to really challenging powerful organizations and people. And he does that as an, an investigative journalist and several documentaries he's produced that has been shown on national tv like some of them as the one documentary I participate in just like one show and others several shows as part of a series and it's like both murder investigation by the police he's challenging. It's like a bank in Denmark that has been the fastest growing international banking success in Danish recent history that he challenges so he's not afraid to take off the gloves.

Lasse Meilsøe [00:10:33] And also I know from my communication with Michael that he's spending somewhere between one and two years investigating and doing research and so on in the process of creating these on, on the next slide just to also give Michael appropriate credit. He's also an author and is writing again about very influential, very rich people in Denmark as well as telling stories that he feels are important.

Lasse Meilsøe [00:11:05] And all of this came out in my experience with Michael and I when we were speaking he sounded like a Mormon, like how often do you meet a non member who knows not just that there's something called priesthood, but like what is a priesthood holder and like what is the difference between being a bishop and a high priest and so on. So really understanding the nuances like well was baffling to me.

Lasse Meilsøe [00:11:32] So, so I know that he does really, you know, amazing research and really goes sufficiently deep to be appropriately critical. And that's one of the reasons that once we met. Besides, I felt like there is a story to be told and that there. There is, like, it's an opportunity to bring to the surface some of these systemic challenges that we all know we have, but that are so difficult to break through and do something about. And I think that this whole story hopefully can be a driver for that.

John Dehlin [00:12:09] Thank you, Bishop Milso, that whether you're in Denmark or the United States or anywhere, what I know about Mormon culture is it's a particularly courageous thing for any member of the church to speak out publicly in a way that doesn't shine only the most positive light on the church, that you're still going to have family and friends in Denmark that will have strong feelings about you speaking out, probably negatively and positively, and that if you're a bishop, that's even amplified. So, Bishop Milso, if I could just thank you first for your courage on coming on the podcast. Thank you. And then, yeah, Michael, welcome to Mormon Stories podcast. I'm sure in all your journalistic ambitions, coming on Mormon Stories podcast never registered as something that, that you would do. So welcome. And is there anything you want to say as we. As we welcome you to the show?

Michael Teschl [00:13:04] Yeah, I would like to say thank you so much for the very kind introduction. It's. That was. That was actually almost touching. Thank you so much, and I'm very happy to be here. This is a tremendously important case that we have been working on for quite a long time now, and there's still a lot of things, a lot of issues that we are looking into, because, you know, when you release and when you broadcast a new documentary, people start calling and people start writing, and we get a lot of new leads right now that we're looking into that has some relation to the case that

Michael Teschl [00:13:42] we were looking at in the documentary, but also new issues that needs to be looked at, not only by people like me, but by the politicians in Denmark, and they are in the authorities, and they are actually looking at it as we speak. So there's a lot of things to do right now.

John Dehlin [00:14:06] Really quick. Sorry, Michael. Before, before we jump in, Michael, from a, from a never Mormon perspective, would you mind giving us your view of how the Mormons are viewed in Denmark? And are they even on the radar? Are they so small that, like most, most Danish people just don't even know anything about them? Just let us know what the, the basic Danish perception of Mormons might be, if anything.

Michael Teschl [00:14:36] Well, the thing is that we have. You have the right to have your way of religion in, in Denmark, and you have Your freedom of religion. So there are quite a lot of different societies and organizations that, you know, you. You said going under the radar. And that's exactly how I look at it, because I think that we have just turned the blind eye to. To these organizations and these different religions in Denmark for quite a long time. And we are, like, assuming that everything is okay. And, you know, we have the entire thing with the Jehovah's Witnesses, and we have some Muslim churches as well, or groups that are doing, you know, things that are under the radar.

Michael Teschl [00:15:32] And when it pops up, it starts to get a lot of attention. But no one has paid any attention, as far as I can see, to the Mormon Church in Denmark, because, first of all, it's. They're highly educated. It's. They are in. In places. In their. In their private life, they are. They have careers in. In the courts of Denmark and in other high places.

Michael Teschl [00:15:58] So I guess that the authorities, as well as the journalists in Denmark have been looking at it and thinking that it's probably all right, what's going on here. There's no need to pay special attention to this. And then suddenly this story popped out. Popped out, and we obviously had to look at it.

John Dehlin [00:16:19] So this might be one of the first major Mormon themed stories to really break and penetrate broad Danish consciousness, at least in. In the modern era.

Michael Teschl [00:16:31] Yeah. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:16:32] All right, that's good to know. I know you were about to jump to something, but I'm curious how this story came about. Was Bishop, you know, Milso early involved? Did Michael get, you know, Bishop Mileso involved? Where do you want to take us, Mavid?

Kiran's Story and Her Role in the Documentary

Maven [00:16:50] Well, first, actually, I want to pull up the documentary and just talk about Kiran real quick. I just want to give her a shout out. From my understanding, after doing this documentary, she's not wanting to talk publicly much, which is completely understandable. She was very vulnerable, and a lot of really hard things were talked about here. But just to kind of piggyback off of what Michael was saying was when someone is brave enough to come forward and tell their story like this, that gives encouragement to other victims to also come forward and report it sounds like that's what Michael was saying is happening. And so I just wanted to give her a shout out for her.

Maven [00:17:32] Her bravery and her willingness to share this story and have something so deeply hurtful and personal really blow up so popularly in her own country. So beautiful. And then we can go from there. I just wanted to acknowledge that.

John Dehlin [00:17:46] Super important. Thank you. All right, so who wants to. Maven's got some Slides. But who wants to jump in to start telling us how this story came into the public consciousness? Who wants to go first?

Lasse Meilsøe [00:18:01] I think you go, Michael, and you tell the story, because I think with Kieran not being here, and I also just want to second maven your attribution to Kieran, because she is the brave one, and she already has opened the door for others to also now have the bravery to also speak up. And so, following this documentation, Michael has made a podcast that also has come out in. In Danish here in Denmark, where other people, other women came forward, both some, you know, with their name and others as anonymous contributors. But. And I've personally had several women and also male write to me and, you know, say thank you for putting the light on this and thanking Kiran for being the first one to open the door so that others, you know, can feel more safe also sharing their stories.

Lasse Meilsøe [00:19:00] And so. So it's really her that's the hero of this. And I think Michael should, you know, tell the story about her and how it all evolved.

Michael Teschl [00:19:09] I would actually like to add that she is probably one of the bravest people that I have met in my entire career, because you have to understand how much courage it actually takes to come forward until something so.

Michael Teschl [00:19:25] So intimately as this story, that and what she's been through. And imagine that when we start, my colleagues and me, when we start to call out to the people involved and they get to know that we're actually looking into this and we are. We are doing a documentary on this, she starts to feel the pressure, obviously, from people around her and all the. The muscles in the church that does not want her to tell her story. So she has been through a lot. And that's actually also the reason why that she kind of said, I now. I had. Now I have told my story, so now I'm going to sit back and hopefully let the documentary work. And I fully understand that because she's been incredibly brave, and it's been very, very hard on her and her private life to.

Lasse Meilsøe [00:20:15] To.

Michael Teschl [00:20:17] To be first in line here on this story. But to tell you guys how it all started. Well, it always starts with the tip from somewhere. Obviously, I can't say from who, but we got a tip that there was this very serious case that a male member of the church was drugging and raping his wife and the mother of his kids and had been going on for several years, and that he actually confessed to this to. To the crimes he had committed, but not to. To anyone but his wife, Kieran, and to the Church leaders.

Michael Teschl [00:21:03] And when he confessed to the church leaders, what they did was that they. They set up the church court and the 15 men that runs the. The church court. Yeah, they tried the man for the crimes that he, He. He confessed. And that resulted in this sanction of him not being allowed to speak in the church. I don't know what you called it just before

John Dehlin [00:21:33] that point. Home. So this man confessed to drugging and raping both his wife and at least one of his children, is that right?

Michael Teschl [00:21:42] No, not one of the children. But what, what actually happened was that she. She'd been feeling weird in, in over a long period of time. Waking up in the morning with a strange feeling and.

Maven [00:21:53] Actually, should we just go ahead and, and jump into this story from the beginning?

John Dehlin [00:21:59] That's what we're doing. Maybe.

Maven [00:22:00] Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, like, like from her, from her point of view. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So actually. So, Bishop Milso, do you want to.

Lasse Meilsøe [00:22:11] Oh, yeah, if I can just supplement or preamp where Michael was getting to, because I think it's also a little bit important to just like, have the lead up. So Kieran comes from a family that's, like, challenged, and so she comes from a challenged environment.

Lasse Meilsøe [00:22:34] Her mother and stepfather. I can't remember if her mother is a member of the church. I apologize. So. But her grandmother certainly is, and her grandmother is taking her to church. And this is a little bit important or very important because it's in the church where she feels safe and feels at home and feels that there's stability, and this is where she can come for safety and predictability and so on, which is what she needed in her life. And growing up as a teenager, like as a young kid and as a teenager, you know, feeling at home in the church, it's part of the story of why she reacts, how she does later on in this story and for, for the, the.

Lasse Meilsøe [00:23:19] The reason. So, so, so she, she meets Peter, if you move on a couple of slides. Yeah. So they get married. And normal, you can say Danish Mormon stories or outside of the US Outside of Utah Mormon story. You know, we are a lot fewer youth and everybody knows each other. We're basically marrying each other within two or three stakes generally.

Lasse Meilsøe [00:23:43] And, and so she, she marries her husband Peter, which is from a good, strong family in the church, you know, with a lot of leadership roles assigned to the family and so on. So she's landing in a really good and safe place on a good Mormon journey, what nowadays is called the covenant path.

Lasse Meilsøe [00:24:07] All is going fine, except it's Not. And so I think that if you jump to Slide 14, I think that Michael then actually maybe can tell more of like Kieran's experience now in her perfect moment life.

Maven [00:24:25] Perfect.

Details of the Abuse Case and Church Response

Michael Teschl [00:24:26] That was very good to, to have that one just before what I'm going to say right now because. But I was actually getting to that because that's what happens when she starts feeling. She starts waking up in the morning feeling she has a strange feeling in her body that, that something has happened to her. And she actually starts getting the, the feeling that she have had sex during the night. And she knows that that's, that's not, that's not what's been going on between them because the situation in their marriage is, is quite stressed. She's working and she is taking care of three kids and he's gone a lot, according to her.

Michael Teschl [00:25:02] And so things at home are not going that well and the intimacy is. Is gone. Had been going for quite a while and suddenly she starts feeling that she has had sex and she actually one night wakes up while he is in the middle of, of raping her.

Michael Teschl [00:25:25] But when she notices it the first time, that's actually. She wakes up during the night's sleep and, and he is lying next to her. And it's something just, you know, it just makes sense now that this is what's been going on. The feeling of kind of nauseousness and blurriness. And she suddenly just asked him, please tell me, have you been drugging me? Because he was making a cup of tea for her every night before she's going to bed. And there was actually some prescription drugs, some sleeping pills that she had. She's a doctor and, and she has prescripted it for him.

Michael Teschl [00:26:12] And she just suddenly realized that this might be what has been going on. She thought she was losing her mind, but then she just confronted him and said, tell me straight up, have you been drugging and raping me? And he said, yes, I have.

Michael Teschl [00:26:28] And then because she is just like lesser explained, she follows church rules because that's what, that's what she's been taught to do all her life. So what they do is that they go to the church leaders instead of going anywhere else.

John Dehlin [00:26:49] Can I just jump in? And I'm going to just be driving home a point that, you know, that just bears repeating, that this is one of the most problematic things I've seen about the Mormon Church in the past 10 or 20 years.

John Dehlin [00:27:05] That oftentimes people who perpetrate fraud, people who perpetrate rape, even pedophilia are not excommunicated in the Mormon Church. At worst, they're disfellowshipped. Sometimes they're not given any consequence at all. Whereas if you criticize the church publicly for its treatment of abuse or any other unethical behavior, or, you know, if the church for some reason, or if you get same sex married, for example, if you legally marry a partner that you love and want to be committed to the first for the rest of your life, that's grounds for excommunication. So in some weird way, the church treats rapists and pedophiles better than it treats people who fight for justice or people who are gay or lesbian and want to engage in same sex marriage.

John Dehlin [00:28:12] It's a really disturbing disparity of treatment. And I just wonder, Michael, how what that sounds like to you as an observer of Mormonism or religion.

Michael Teschl [00:28:24] Yeah, well, I have to say that I have seen quite a lot of things during my time doing documentaries on murder cases and fraud cases and financial crimes and so on. So I'm used to a little of each. But I have to say that it is beyond my, I can't understand how 15 people, how 15 men can address a situation like this.

Michael Teschl [00:29:00] They can sit and hear that this guy has been drugging and raping the mother of his kids, his wife, and raping her, and actually kind of states that it is his right to do so. What else should he do?

Michael Teschl [00:29:14] And that none of these guys, what they actually do is that they send him back home with her to continue their marriage because marriage is, families are forever. Marriage is more important than anything. And they actually sent him back home with her or her back home with him, not knowing if, if these drugging and raping were going to continue, which they, according to her, did for many years. And what I don't understand is that how is it humanly possible not to react by calling the authorities and, and, and asking them to have a look at this.

Michael Teschl [00:29:57] I, I don't even care. I don't even know why she's not involved in this court, church court. She's not part of it. It's only the church leaders, the 15 men and him.

John Dehlin [00:30:10] So she wasn't, she wasn't invited to witness on, on behalf of herself against her husband in his own disciplinary council?

Michael Teschl [00:30:19] No. And no one was representing her in, in the church court. It, Lassic can explain a lot about this and you guys probably already know it, that you have the, the 15 men, where six of them from the, the high Council are representing the church and the Other six representing represents him. She's not represented in the case where she's the one being drugged and raped repeatedly. And that's. Well, I think everyone watching can understand that when you look at this from outside and, and in it, it just blows your mind that this is even, that this is possible, that this can take place.

Maven [00:31:06] John, I think you can correct me. I, I think we've had guests on before that have experienced similar things where there's an abusive relationship between spouses, and it, it does end up in a court situation like this. You, a court of love, as it's called now, where the abused spouse is not there. I, I, I want to say that we've had guests on who have talked about that or even if the, the victim is, you know, a child from somebody else, the, the perpetrator gets to have their full say on what did or didn't happen. And often it gets minimized. And I had that happen to a personal friend of mine also at BYU Hawaii.

Maven [00:31:43] I did just want to jump in and talk about consent because it's not something that's really taught in the church. And there is kind of an entitlement. It's not explicitly stated. It sounds like maybe Peter did explicitly state it. And Michael, you can correct me on that. But even if it's not stated, or even if the opposite is stated, I think this, it's still there. Your, your reward for being true and chaste growing up. It's hammered into all of us, men and women, I feel like, especially women.

Maven [00:32:13] But yeah, that you, you know, you get married and that's when you get to have sex. So that's, and that's the only time that it's okay. So there is kind of an entitlement there. And we've also had other guests in the past come on, you know, couples and talk about things that were really borderline or pushing consent or, you know, that they didn't actually just really ever consider like, like asking permission first or things like that or, or a lot of women feeling like they can't say that they don't want to do things. They just, you know, so they're not saying no, but they don't actually feel like they own their bodies and they really can say no.

Maven [00:32:47] And it's just all part of marital duty for them. And so I guess what stands out to me about this case is unfortunately, I've heard a lot of domestic violence stories between husband and wife, but this one really takes it up a notch with the drugging. This isn't like him complaining or, or pushing for it or, you know, but to go so far as to do this on, on such a regular basis, it, it also, it, it. I think that's. It just, it just adds a whole extra level of oh, what's, what is it I'm looking for. He, like, he had to know. I, I can see how some people who don't under.

Maven [00:33:29] Understand consent. Well, can understand or, you know, can maybe misunderstand that that pushing their wife to have sex when she doesn't want to is, Is okay, but like, you know, what you're doing is not okay if you're drugging her. So I think that's what brings it up a level.

Michael Teschl [00:33:45] Yeah, exactly. Exactly. He, he knows that actually what, how it all started is that he watched her one night taking sleeping pills because she had a hard time falling asleep. She was stressed. And when she falls asleep, when she fell asleep and was heavily asleep, he actually tried his luck. He actually went in and to the bed and he raped her. And that's how he found out that that's actually an option. And he, he actually later explained this in court in Denmark that that's how he found out that by putting these sleeping pills into her night tea cup of tea that he made for her. Well then when he felt like it, he, that was his way of.

John Dehlin [00:34:35] Yeah, getting his knees back. And again, I just highlight this pattern. This was covered here in the United States quite a bit with, with the journalist Michael Resendez, where, you know, Kurt McConkey, the church's law firm continually has discouraged bishops to report sexual abuse, even of children to police. And let me just confirm, Michael, in Denmark, is that what the normal course of behavior would be if a, If a, if a school or a government or a business or a church leader discovered that sexual abuse or rape was going on? The normal course of behavior is to report that to police authorities. Is that, is that true?

Michael Teschl [00:35:21] Obviously, obviously that's, that's the normal thing to do. And actually we have, we have. And that's what the entire documentary is about. We have this, we hear Kieran's story. And what she is telling us is that after 2013, when they reported, when they went to the church leaders and said, this is what is going on in our home and in our marriage, the drugging and raping and the, the abuse of her continued. And she actually explains, and she has her diary notes where she explains exactly what was going on on different dates through the years of the end of 2018. And she tells us that she, she every year talked to her, her bishop and to the church leaders and told them what was going on.

Michael Teschl [00:36:13] And this is the important part, because in Denmark we have a law that states that if you know that someone is in danger and if you know that someone is about to be or continuously is being raped at home, you are obligated to take action, you are obligated to report it, or else you can actually be punished yourself. So when we heard this, and when we heard that she states that she went to the church leaders and told them what was going on in her home, then obviously we had to look into this, because that would actually be a violation of the Danish criminal law in if they didn't do anything.

Michael Teschl [00:36:58] And they didn't do anything. But all that the church leaders admit to is that they became aware of the situation at several drugging and rape situations in their home in 2012 and 2013, and they became aware of this when they reported it to them in March 2013.

Lasse Meilsøe [00:37:18] Yeah. Would you allow me to just supplement a little bit with some observations here? Because there's so much to. To unpack on exactly at this point in the story. Because first of all, it was not like an incident or it was not a couple of incidents. It's like over a long period of time, like years. And Kieran is Saying is like 30 to 40 times.

Lasse Meilsøe [00:37:45] And so. So that's one thing. It's not just like what happened, what we just talked about. It's like an abusive relationship over time. That's one thing that' when you look at how the church leaders handle it. I also want to just point.

Lasse Meilsøe [00:38:04] So in the US you have this. Where is a priest obligated to report? Is a priest allowed to report? Or do they have an obligation not to report? And so on, which is different in each state. And so I just want to really carve out what Michael is explaining. In Denmark, if you are a person, for example, a school teacher, and if there are kids involved, as there was in this environment here, then if you are in a position of power and trust, then you have an extended obligation to report.

Lasse Meilsøe [00:38:42] Then below that there is an obligation to report for all citizens, regardless of whether you are a stake president, a bishop, relief society president, or the neighbor or the taxi driver. So all Danish citizens have an obligation to report, otherwise you are breaking the law. If you know that a person is in risk of being violated again and. Or if there's also even kids involved, as in this case, then all Danish citizens has an obligation by law to report it. And so it's Not a matter of. It is not a matter of, like, whether, you know, is it good for the church or do I have an obligation or if I don't collaborate, the police or I don't report, you know, will that be used against me as a bishop?

Lasse Meilsøe [00:39:36] So clearly all of the church leaders have an obligation. The last thing I just want to wrap up my comments with now is this particular member. He was on the high council in 2013. What we're just talking about when the, when the, this. When. When the court case was held against him. So he was a high councilman at the time.

Lasse Meilsøe [00:40:00] And this had been going on before. So just a little bit about, you know, abilities and discernment and so on. And then he's raping his wife multiple times over a long period of time, and he gets disfellowshipped. This, this member, this high priest, he was previously excommunicated for having consensual sex with another person. So you get excommunicated for having consensual sex and you get disfellowshipped for 12 months for raping.

Maven [00:40:45] It makes no sense. No, it makes no sense. So just to drive your point home,

John Dehlin [00:40:51] Bishop, can I just say, Maven, it does make sense. If you, if you think about the Mormon Church, and I don't mean to be cynical or unkind, if you think of the Mormon Church as a corporation that first and foremost has a motivation of protecting its own interests, then it makes all the sense in the world that punishment isn't based on protecting the victim. Punishment isn't. Punishment of the perpetrator isn't based on protecting the victim, isn't based on a severity of crime.

John Dehlin [00:41:24] Punishment isn't based on what the law dictates or how much damage has been done. If, if punishment is, however, based on what's going to minimize the risk and the harm and the financial risk or the public relations risk of the organization, if that's what the punishment, the severity of the punishment is based on, then it makes all the sense in the world that a corporation would look first to protect its own assets, its own reputation and its own interests, and look at the, the needs of the victim as secondary. It makes all the sense in the world. If you look at it from that.

Michael Teschl [00:42:13] Not even if. I just, can I just add, not even secondary. If it was secondary, she would be represented in the church court. She isn't. She's not even present in there. The secondary priority, that's him. That's the abuser. That's the man raping her. And that's actually what is. I think that most people and the viewers in, in Denmark who's been following this, this case is most shocked about, that's actually that, that she is. She's nowhere. She just disappears. The minute the case goes to the church court, she disappears. It has nothing to do with her. It has something to do with that. They have to protect the marriage and they have obviously, as a first priority to protect the church. That's. You can't make any other conclusions on that.

Maven [00:43:05] And the members, what's sad is the members don't know that though. I mean, from, from the inside, we're coming at it thinking that the church is literally Jesus's church, that Jesus Christ, the Savior of the world, the, the champion and defender of the vulnerable and the marginalized, that when something horrible like this happens and we go to our leaders who are called by God through direct inspiration, through priesthood power, we are as members, we trust that the church exists for our benefit. And that's why people like Kieran are able to be kind of swept under the rug like this is, is because of that trust that is placed in the institution.

Maven [00:43:45] And I just wanted to point out that, you know, in the US there's so many protections for religion. And so when we see cases like this where there's really egregious abuse going on, I'm thinking of the Arizona Bisbee case that even the, a lot of these states have clergy penitent privilege, which as far as I know, no state prohibits clergy from reporting, but it does put protections in place for when clergy doesn't report.

Maven [00:44:16] And, you know, a lot of people defend that. And so when, you know, when the, the bishop in that case was, you know, shown to have not done anything or, or not done enough, I guess, to, to try to get this poor girl out of this, this house where she was being abused so much.

Maven [00:44:32] It, it almost seems like, well, maybe because of some of these systems like this is what's causing the church not to do the right thing. Or, you know, if bishops are afraid they're going to get sued and some have been told or it heavily implied by the church's legal system that if they do report that they're on their own legally, if they get sued for telling that information. So it has been said and you know how true or not that is, that is a defense that's used by members of the church a lot for bishops keeping that confidence and not sharing.

Maven [00:45:03] But you and Michael are telling us is these kinds of things that we make excuses for in the US for why somebody didn't do the right thing in a leadership position do not exist in Denmark. So there's. There's no upside legally for keeping it secret and every, I guess, incentive to report, period. Is that correct? Am I. I'm like separating this. This is how Denmark is different from

Lasse Meilsøe [00:45:32] the U.S. you're absolutely right, Maven. Unless, of course, you are part of the paid priesthood or prayed. So if you are employed by the Church, you have, you know, close relationship with your own family members that are members of the Church, you are a state president, you're promoted to be a 70 general authority in the European area and so on. Then. Then you maybe have a downside related to the Church, but you do not to the Danish society.

Maven [00:46:03] Perfect. Shall we get into the. The post nuptial or do you want to move past that?

How Church Leaders and Members Have Reacted

John Dehlin [00:46:09] So, Bishop, anything you want to say about, you know, how this has been received by ward members, stake members, church leaders in Denmark as this story developing and as it starts to get news coverage with Michael? I don't want to jump too far ahead in the timeline, but I want to give you a sense for, you know, because sometimes, for example, we've had interviewees where, when they tried to speak up or when something got known, either victims were told to hurry and forgive the abuser, or families or ward members were told to keep things quiet, and the Church really clamps down, trying to really hide everything and suppress any knowledge or discussion of it. You also sometimes have wards or stakes having reactions where people get mad and some people leave. What's been the Church reaction so far to all of this, Bishop Mileso? Without. Without giving the ending away, so to speak.

Lasse Meilsøe [00:47:12] Yeah, no, so. So I actually, some of the process I had of learning about this, because it was a little bit of a gradual, you know, building information upon information that I learned about this, and I want to say, unwillingly I learned about it and, and me inquiring within my family and within some of my closer church friends independently those that I spoke to. Oh, you know, this is something. It happened a long time ago. He's repented from it. You know, nothing to see here, kind of. And. And I was. Yep. But he's in jail, so. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, the church obviously can't get to him when he's in jail.

Lasse Meilsøe [00:47:59] So. So, so there's nothing that can be done about it. And so that's one thing is like, it was just like immediately, instantly. So the, the patterns that you guys are familiar with, all members that are listening are Familiar with the, the, the behavioral patterns are so strong that it's almost like a reflex, just a reflex more so than, you know, decided behavior.

Lasse Meilsøe [00:48:24] And then my personal involvement in this, you know, the communication in a split second becomes about my participation, like, and why I'm participating or why, you know, so this is something that should be handled in the church or why is, you know, it's not good that there's someone that's, you know, communicating negatively about the church. So, so there's no one, as in Crow, that I've had communication with that said, you know what?

Lasse Meilsøe [00:49:00] The. Of active members, plenty of less active or non active members, but no active members said, you know what? This, this is not okay. And we filed on this one and we got to learn from this and we got to do better. Here was a girl that came to church as an escape from her family situation, and she grew up in our midst and we didn't protect her. We need to do better.

John Dehlin [00:49:28] Okay.

Maven [00:49:30] I just wanted to jump in and ask Michael about this because I also know that whenever there's any kind of criticism for the church, the members not just not doing anything and avoiding getting involved and keeping it quiet, but they will actively defend the church and often do that by attacking the reporters. That happened with Mike Resendez with the Bisbee case. And so I'm curious, Michael, what members have said about you? Do they feel like you just hate Mormonism? You work for the devil? You're only doing this to tear the church down. Have you heard anything like this?

Michael Teschl [00:50:06] Yeah, something like that. But what I noticed from the guidelines from the church court is that it, it stipulates that the church court is there to keep the church unspotted from the sins of the world. And that's actually a kind of the, the thing that we met every time we contacted or tried to get in the church to talk to us.

Michael Teschl [00:50:33] I think one of the, the first responses was that I was obviously, my errand was obviously to, to, to just criticize the church. No matter what they explained or tried to explain to me, it's like I was not listening to anything they said. That was the, that's the main argument you, you, you meet when you, when you raise these questions to them. But another thing that is very asymptomatic is that, and that's what we have experienced throughout the entire case, that is that they, the reaction is always the same and that is referring to and pointing at some guidelines and rules that appears on the church website.

Michael Teschl [00:51:15] You can, you can use this example, actually. We Tried to ask the church about this exact example. We said, okay, so in Danish, Danish legal system, in the Danish law says like in many other countries around the world, that you're not allowed to kill another living soul. But that doesn't mean that it's not actually happening. Murders are happening all the time. And that's, but that's their only response to the, the, to the questions we ask. That is. Well, it says right here that it's not allowed to do this and to do this. And then it's like, okay, then it doesn't happen.

Michael Teschl [00:51:54] It doesn't happen in, in our church. And that's, you know, you can only get that far. The other kind of response is that, oh, you're just after us. You're just trying to, to, to make us look terrible to the, to the public. But it's okay. You can't touch us. We are the chosen ones. So that's actually, that's what you, that's what you face.

Maven [00:52:17] So sometimes another defense is that abusers are everywhere. Like, it's, it's not a reflection on the organization. Like, you know, every church has men that will abuse their wives. So this isn't something that's specifically Mormon. Is that not something that you hear there?

Michael Teschl [00:52:35] Yeah, yeah, we hear that as well. But it's. And, and obviously what they also do is that they tell us that they have the, the victim is their main priority. They, what they actually do is that they, they point us to like we have the, the main priority is the victim and then it's the perpetrator. We need to get this guy back in, in line and making him a good, trying to, you know, make him a good person again. And, and in third, fourth, fifth, all the way down at the bottom is the church the priority. And that's just not what we experience when we dive into cases like this.

Michael Teschl [00:53:16] It's the other way around actually. It is to keep the church unspotted from the sins of the world. So obviously what they say is that, well, it all, it also takes place right here. But we handle it like this. And we always tell, we always tell our members that if they are, if they find themselves in a situation where they are being abused or victims of a crime, you need to go to the authorities. That's what they tell us that they always tell members.

Michael Teschl [00:53:46] But since we, we. The documentary was broadcast, we had, I have had, I don't even have the count of it, but quite a lot of emails and phone calls from, from members, active members from the church, but also Members that have left, former members that disagrees that this is what's. What the church is doing when they come and report that they have been abused.

Michael Teschl [00:54:15] So they say one thing, but they do another thing. And that's actually what we have been seeing in the way they've been communicating this as well. But I think we'll get back to that later on.

Lasse Meilsøe [00:54:26] Exactly. I was just going to say what blew me away when I met Michael the one time before I was even asked to or decided to participate in the documentary. What blew me away is what Michael is about to tell you about now. So it's a little bit like what happened next because it's already bad, but it's just getting worse from here.

Timeline of Abuse Reports and Church Knowledge

John Dehlin [00:54:49] Okay, so let me, let me just, just because I want to get the timeline right. So the, the abuse is happening in 2012, 2013, is that right? And there's a. Go tell us in the timeline. Just hit, hit some of those major points in the timeline in terms of when the abuse happened, when the disciplinary council happened, when the disfellowshipment was, and then what happened after and then how that led to a documentary and when that all happened.

Michael Teschl [00:55:17] Well, Peter, that's his name, he confessed that he, that he had drugged and raped her in 2012 and 2013. So according to the church, they only know about the cases or the, the crimes that he had committed in 2012 and 2013. But what we hear from Kieran, and it's backed up by several things, documents and papers that he has signed. Peter, it shows that it actually continued until December 2018. Okay, well that's six years.

John Dehlin [00:55:59] Okay. Wow. Yeah, so it kept for another six years.

Michael Teschl [00:56:04] Yeah, so.

Lasse Meilsøe [00:56:05] So the court case was in 13, which was the end of an initial process. And then in 2015 it has happened, it has continued. And in 2015, Peter is signing and presenting his wife a post nuptial agreement specifically noting that, you know, he's really sorry and now he will not do it again. And then it still continues after that. And then as a couple they go ahead, Mike, I'm sorry, can I just

Michael Teschl [00:56:46] say that just for, to have all the details here that Peter actually denies any wrongdoing after 2013. He has no recollection of doing anything to her. So you have to try to look at the exact wording in, in these documents that he's, he's signing because there must have been something going on when you look at that he needs to put into paper in an affidavit that he's not going to abuse her again.

Michael Teschl [00:57:26] And, and this is just one of the documents that, that we, we found in the case that there are another one that is even more horrible to read, but that's in 2018. So, but, but the thing is that he is, he's saying that he has done nothing to her since 2013. And, and we have this other. I can't remember when in our timeline here when we come to the document from the bishop, but that clearly shows that the, that leaders from the church fully knows what's going on.

Maven [00:58:01] Yeah, I think this one.

Michael Teschl [00:58:03] Yeah.

Maven [00:58:04] Do you want to explain what this is?

Michael Teschl [00:58:09] Yeah. In 2018, according to Kieran, she wakes up in the middle of the night while. And she actually finds a little part of the pill, sleeping pill in her. In her lip, in her mouth. And he is, and she wakes up while he is preparing a rape.

Michael Teschl [00:58:34] That's her. That's what she explains. And that's the reason why that the next morning they go to the bishop, who's also actually a family member of, of Peter and they present him to the case. What's just been going on during the night. And in the evening, the same day, in the evening, he writes a four pages email to them where he. And this mail is actually a, you know, it's an instruction to the couple to Peter and Kieran on how to handle this situation and how to protect their marriage and most importantly how to explain to the kids, three kids in, in their home that now you have to.

Michael Teschl [00:59:30] It has come so far that we now have to put a lock on the door to Kieran's bedroom so she has a safe place to go when Peter no longer can hold back on his addiction. And it's. And, and they also explain to the kids that in this, the, the instruction is that, listen, kids, you, you have to understand that sex is, is a beautiful thing. That's how you came into this world. And it's, it's, it's. You have to feel sorry for your father because he has a problem that he cannot control. And sometimes, well, mom is the victim of his, of his problem. But you need to understand that it's actually a beautiful thing and that it just blows your mind when you read that because it's, it kind of follows the church guidelines on how to handle how a bishop is supposed to handle situations when he is, gets the knowledge of what's going on here.

Michael Teschl [01:00:29] He needs to protect the family. He needs to, he doesn't say, oh, you guys need to split up. You, you need to call the police. You need obviously now we can see in 2018, it's been going on. It still goes on in your home. So obviously we need to report this. We can't just leave you alone. What they are suggesting is that she need. They need to lock her up because he's. So she can have safe space for not being raped by him. It's completely madness. But that's. That's the situation in 2018. And that's when she finally sees that she needs to leave and she leaves with no help at all from the church. And that's remarkable as well.

Maven [01:01:17] I wanted to. So we've shown this slide here with a picture, and this is the picture that the bishop actually sent as part of the email as an example lock, as I understand it. And this is where the case just gets more and more crazy. It starts off bad as it is. And then when you get these kinds of details. And for me, involving the children really, really bothered me because I feel like, first of all, it's kind of normalizing. Not kind of. It is normalizing this assault and making it seem like it's not a big deal when men do this to their wives. And then secondly, it's putting a burden on the children, I think, quite unnecessarily to.

Maven [01:01:57] To be watching out for their mother or you protect their mother from. From their father. And then on top of all of that, viewing him as. As the victim and the person that they need to pity while also trying to keep their mother safe. I just. What a terrible thing to do to children.

Michael Teschl [01:02:17] By law in Denmark, you are obligated. You are obligated to report it to the authorities. When you know or get to know that kids are involved in situations like this in their home, you are obligated to go to the authorities.

Michael Teschl [01:02:35] What, what we are hearing here is, and what we. What we see here is that this is a bishop and a family member, a member of the. The high council of the church that suddenly sees what's going on here. He is being told by the couple, by Peter and Kieran, what's going on in their home. And he needs to sit down and write four pages and instruction on how to handle this. And when you read the document, you. You realize that he knows in details what's been going on in their home. There's no doubt that he has been fully informed about what's been going on and the reason why they came to him for help.

Michael Teschl [01:03:16] And his response is that she needs to be locked up. And there is no contacting the authorities. There's no highlighting that this is a problem regarding the kids. The only thing is that you need to make the kids understand why Daddy is doing what he's doing to mom and how we have to feel sorry for Daddy that he has this problem. That's the church handling of this situation.

Lasse Meilsøe [01:03:42] That is.

Michael Teschl [01:03:43] Yeah.

Why the Victim Faced Consequences Instead of the Perpetrator

John Dehlin [01:03:44] So I. I have a question. How did they get to her? Her needing to go to jail instead of him? Can somebody explain how that happened? Michael or Bishop?

Lasse Meilsøe [01:03:58] So, like, Michael presented this email communication to me during an interview where there's a camera rolling. That's the first time I see it. And I'm like, I'm just baffled, you know, so this, you know, so like I said in the very beginning of this podcast, we are like, just a couple of mistakes. Everybody knows each other, multiple families are intermarried, and so on. So these are not just like some people. This is our community where this is happening. So. So it's like, really just baffling how a bishop can sit down and write that. And I'm just saying any man can feel privileged to tell a woman that is being assaulted.

Lasse Meilsøe [01:04:46] How she should protect herself by putting a lock on her bedroom door is just, like, outrageous. I want to just point out a couple of things that are important to the church. Interaction with this and just the whole disparity all the time about, like, how's the church acting to the amazing trust that Kieran has been taught throughout her whole life of how she can trust a church leader and how the church is the place you go for help and how the church is the inspired place where she can, you know, get the help from God that he wants her, as a daughter of God, to have.

Lasse Meilsøe [01:05:23] So this bishop, who I just want to point out is not their bishop at this time, he's a family member. He is a bishop, like I'm a bishop. So that means he is well trained or at least has had plenty of experience to understand what a role as a priesthood leader is when you're in this situation.

Lasse Meilsøe [01:05:45] He was on the High Council when Peter was disfellowshipped for rape. So it's not like. And. And Michael just said to you, there's plenty of written either indication or proof that he also knew that this was ongoing already when he's meeting with them in 18. So he knows about it in 18.

Michael Teschl [01:06:08] Very important. He was in the High Council when he wrote this email as well.

Lasse Meilsøe [01:06:14] So he's in the High Council at the time, and right now he's on the High Council, which is, you know, not a part of the state presidency. But a part of the state leadership. So, so the church is saying, oh, the church didn't know about it, but if the church is not the church leadership, then who is?

Maven [01:06:36] Right. So the church is fully implicated here at this point. We've got the same person who was on originally that, that now knows is what I'm hearing. And then I think there's one more detail. I'll put this slide up. I, I think we missed it. That the church told Kieran to go to the church's 12 step program to

Lasse Meilsøe [01:06:59] better understand her husband and his needs and his challenge.

Maven [01:07:05] That's wild.

John Dehlin [01:07:07] And again, at any point did the Mormon church in Denmark encourage Kieran to report this to the police?

Michael Teschl [01:07:17] Yeah, that's the discussion, ongoing discussion, because that's what they are saying. They are saying that they actually, that they told her that she should consider go to the, going to the police or reporting it to the authorities. But she says definitely no. They never told her anything like that. So that's their words, that word against her word. And then you have to look at who you believe most in this, in this case.

John Dehlin [01:07:45] Do they have any proof that they told her? No?

Michael Teschl [01:07:48] That's what I asked them. I asked them, did you have any. They said that there was a bishop back in 2013 that several times told her or suggested that she should leave Peter and that she should contact the authorities, go to the police. And, and I asked them, could we have the name of this bishop or do you have anything, do you have a note, do you have a text message, do you have an email, do you have a, you know, anything on, on the paper trail that can somehow indicate that this happened? And they don't just say no, we don't, they don't respond to it. So, so I think the answer is a no. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:30] Okay.

Michael Teschl [01:08:31] And also I have to. A really interesting point is that when the case was brought to the police finally when she left the church in 2018, I know we come to this, but I, I would just say that there they were interrogated by the police and the church leaders and no one said anything about suggesting her to go to the authorities back then or suggesting that it was an option for her to leave Peter at that point. No one said anything about that when they were interrogated by the police. So I think they would not say

Lasse Meilsøe [01:09:12] they were not saying that. I just want to make really carve that out. So they did not say that to the police, that they had told her to go to the police and encourage her to leave her violent husband. They did not say that when they were interrogated. But once there was a media storm, then they were, you know, falling over each other to express how much they had told her to report it to the police and for. For her to leave her husband. Then all of a sudden, media involved. Then that's like the only key message. I also want to point out something that we will get to in a few slides about the confidentiality.

Lasse Meilsøe [01:09:52] So the church leaders not being able to talk to Michael as a journalist because of their confidentiality obligation as a priest. So. But somehow all the members know about how Kieran was told that she should report it to the police. So. So there apparently is some kind of a filter about what things there is confidentiality about and what things there are not.

Lasse Meilsøe [01:10:20] So it's apparently possible to talk about the instructions they've given to Kieran, but the church leaders are not able to come out and just publicly apologize for maybe not having. Not having handled it right and for what they should have done and what they can learn from it and so on.

Michael Teschl [01:10:40] What you talked about just before, the thing here about what did the church know from 2013 to 2018, what we have to understand here is that we can see that Kieran has had these. These talks with the leadership in. In the church every year, every six months.

Michael Teschl [01:11:01] And we have to. If we are to trust what the church leaders are telling us right now, then they. These talks that she has regularly with the church leaders, she's apparently not telling them, even though she stepped forward in 2013 and told them that she was being dropped and drugged and raped and he confessed to it.

Michael Teschl [01:11:26] We are to believe that she didn't mention anything about this in 2014, 15, 16, 17 or 18 during her meetings with her bishop or with the church leaders, not once. She didn't mention that what she wrote in her diary, in detail, said this night, he did this and this and so on. They didn't mention that.

Michael Teschl [01:11:50] I have to say I find it very hard to believe that they were not fully informed about what was going on. And what actually tells me that I'm right here is that the church leaders tell their members one thing and they tell us another thing when they are trying to explain this situation, on whether they knew after 2013 that she was continuously being raped or abused or they didn't. Because when they write to us, they categorically deny knowing anything after 2013, after the church court handled the case in 2013.

Michael Teschl [01:12:33] But when they write to the members, after the documentary, when they write to the members and inform them of their, how they, they stand in this situation. They write that the leaders have no recollection of being informed about it. And that's a legal adjustment of what they are telling us and what they are telling the politicians in the government right now who's looking into the case. Because they're telling us outside the church that it's, it's, it never happened. We don't know anything about, we never heard anything about. But the members are being told that we can't, we don't recall being informed that the, the rapes and the abuse were going on after 2000, continued after 2013.

Michael Teschl [01:13:21] And that's very interesting because for me it shows that they might fear that there are some members in church or leaders in church or in the United States where they, Peter and Kieran stayed for about two years during this period that were actually informed about what was going on at home. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:45] Okay, Maven, go ahead.

Michael Teschl [01:13:48] Did that make any sense?

Maven [01:13:49] Yeah, yeah, yeah, it did. I just, I had a question about. So I know John more so than me for, you know, doing this for so long. This is so familiar. It's. I think we could write a textbook, a playbook for how the Church responds in these cases. And it's just the same over here. They, they do always, they, like Bishop was saying, fall over themselves to try to say that. No, we did tell them. I think they did that for the Bisbee case as well. And then there was also the, the Minnesota case.

Maven [01:14:22] I, I forget, I think was that Crawford or, or something like that. But anyway, they, once it becomes public, then the Church will always say that they said the right thing, did the right thing. They never have any evidence of it, of course, but then, yeah, they will.

Maven [01:14:37] They really try to make it sound like this is just a one off thing. And we didn't know that's the other thing is that we did tell them to do the right thing and we didn't know about what happened after. Over and over and over and over. I think John would, would you agree? And I, and, and I guess after you answer that, I, I want to know, Michael, if this is getting up to politicians and, and public discourse. There's a part of me that doesn't want the Church to get away with these same kind of lies or omissions of truth that these are really dirty things that they're doing.

Maven [01:15:10] And I, so I wonder, and I hope maybe, maybe Bishop Milso is helping you with this. Is it possible to use cases from the US where the Church is saying the same thing over and over when there's evidence that, that they're not telling the truth. Is that something that can help this case or in places where people aren't as familiar with the church and they don't see this pattern, I worry that they'll, they'll give the church the benefit of the doubt that this was just a one off or you know, that there's not something really systemic and insidious here. Do you, do you have thoughts on that or. I guess John, I had asked if I'm, if I'm noticing the pattern. Right. You've been at this a lot longer than I am.

John Dehlin [01:15:47] This sounds actually eerily familiar to the Arizona case that Resendes was a part of. But yeah, I'd love to hear Michael's response to your question. But then I also want to get Back to slide 20 and the end as well. Go ahead, Michael.

Michael Teschl [01:16:03] Well, my concern is that this is a very complicated matter for the politicians to handle for the. I, I think that what they're looking into right now is actually a bit broader than just the, the situation with Kieran and the, the church courts.

Michael Teschl [01:16:27] What they are looking into are a lot of things like, like lesson mentioned earlier that we did a podcast, three episodes of a podcast where we went through some other issues in the church about these, that the children may risk to sit alone in conversations with the middle aged bishop talking about sexual purity. And it's, it's a question in Denmark right now that has become.

Michael Teschl [01:16:56] Well, the politicians are very worried about this part because is it elite? Is it at all legal to make a requirement for children under the sexual minimum age that they must be sexually pure to be members of the church.

Michael Teschl [01:17:14] There's also this that we found out that one of the leaders of the Danish church is also a judge at the Danish courts. And that means that at the same time in one's private life he's a part of the leadership of a religious community where the laws that are judged according to, you know, in his professional line of work as a judge, he doesn't, he does actually sentence people by laws that his religious community does not respect. Is that, is that okay in, in, in a system like ours and that. So there are a lot of different things. It's not only the thing about the church, church courts and they are that thing that they are handling cases like this internally.

Michael Teschl [01:18:02] There are a lot of different things, subjects up right now in Denmark that the politicians are looking into. Not only the minister but also other politicians from different parties are looking into this because they think I think that the, the feeling right now is that we have been turning the blind eye to, to this. We don't actually know what's going on inside this community.

Michael Teschl [01:18:27] And we need to be, we need to look at what, how the, the children are being handled. What. And especially here in this case with Kieran, where you suddenly see that there are three kids at home, Daddy is, is abusing mommy and mommy needs to put a lock on her door.

Michael Teschl [01:18:45] There's something here that needs to be looked at and I think that's the, the, the atmosphere around the church right now when you look at it from politicians and the authorities view.

John Dehlin [01:18:56] Thanks, Michael. So, Bishop, you'd want us to go Back to slide 20. Where do you want to take us? Because we're not done kind of narrating the story yet. So.

Michael Teschl [01:19:05] What?

Lasse Meilsøe [01:19:05] No, no.

John Dehlin [01:19:06] You want to tell us about the story?

Lasse Meilsøe [01:19:09] Yeah. So I, I think that. Allow me just to supplement the last party, but leave the slide on. So I think that, that politicians, they have a certain way that they operate and it's not necessarily something that will make a big change for us members or for the safety of the women in the church. So. But I, I do applaud that politicians are reacting on this new cycle and opening up an investigation and so on. And that will, you know, put, put the church to be responsible for complying with the law in Denmark which protects us as members and citizens in general. So I think that's great.

Lasse Meilsøe [01:19:50] But I do think it's up to us as members and it doesn't matter really if you are a progressive member or really conservative, full blown tbm. So these things we're talking about today has to change and they will only change if we change them. And one of the things I would like to advocate for is that we are able to change it. So it's really interesting that you guys are saying, yeah, well, we can totally recognize that that's a case that happened in the U.S. or several cases in the U.S.

Lasse Meilsøe [01:20:20] it is exactly the same playbook, which means that my church leaders are simply just inheriting the playbook and they are just inheriting the systemic culture that is enabling this. So if you put slides when you're up, please maven. So, so what actually happened is that, you know, Peter was following everything that Michael just told you about a church leader was inspired to ordain him as a high priest and place him in the high council to sit and judge others while what we've talked about today was going on.

Church Leadership Conflicts of Interest

Lasse Meilsøe [01:21:02] And he was on the High council when When. When he went to the bishop who was also on the high council, it's just, like, you know, totally, like, out of this world. So. But he has remained a member in good standing through all of this. When he confessed, he remained in good standing when he was arrested, when he was serving time, and when he was doing his house arrest. He's all the time a part of the bishopric.

John Dehlin [01:21:39] Okay, wait, I'm confused. So the high council is different than the bishopric? First of all, I'm blown. My mind is blown that this guy has a history of rape. The church knows it, he's divorced, the police get involved in 2018.

Lasse Meilsøe [01:21:58] Sorry, I think he. He's on the high council in 18 when he's married still.

John Dehlin [01:22:05] Okay.

Lasse Meilsøe [01:22:06] And. And so. So I don't know when after 18, he is released from the High council, which is, like, at the time in 2018 when he and his wife goes to the. To the bishop and so on. He's actually. No, sorry. Sorry. I'm messing it up. Sorry, John. So it's in 2013, he on the high council. Sorry, my. My. My bad. It was the bishop that was on the high council in 18. Yeah, in 2022, when he's arrested and so on. He's like an assistant to the bishop. On the bishop Brick.

John Dehlin [01:22:40] Okay, so when. When was the perpetrator added to the bishopric? Can we just get that really solid? Does anybody.

Lasse Meilsøe [01:22:48] Yeah, no, I. I don't have that solid, but that's, like, before 2022. And. And then. And then in 2022, he's then arrested, and he then goes to jail, and then he's serving time, and all this time, he's still on the bishop brig. He comes, He. He gets into a house arrest because of logistical reasons. So he's wearing an ankle bracelet, like location bracelets, as part of him serving time. He's on the bishopric. And. And what you see on the next slide is actually that he's leading the congregation in prayer, wearing the ankle bracelet.

John Dehlin [01:23:33] Okay, so I just have to repeat. So. So after this man is. Confesses to rape of his wife over the span of multiple years after they divorce, after he's, you know, been arrested, after he's done jail time, somehow he ends up in a Mormon bishopric, leading his congregation. Michael, can you confirm this?

Michael Teschl [01:24:02] Yes, yes, that's true. That's true.

John Dehlin [01:24:05] Like, that's another level of disgust and shame that I don't even think we've experienced here in the United States as frequently as. As that's disturbed. Michael, how does that sound to you?

Michael Teschl [01:24:19] Well, I think we should actually ask that question to Alessia because that's about. Around this time that you. That you contacted me.

Lasse Meilsøe [01:24:29] Yeah.

Michael Teschl [01:24:30] Because you experienced this and you had actually had a reaction to this that I think was pretty strong. So I think you should explain it.

Lasse Meilsøe [01:24:40] Yeah, so. So. So there. There's a dilemma, John. And even as, you know, that, you know, when the. The war that we've grown up or we spent many years in, it's so full of good people. And like, one bishop after the other, statement after the other amazing people, Relief Society presidents, like, all of the members, like, we are all just people doing our best.

Lasse Meilsøe [01:25:07] And when you have a. Like multiple generations in the same environment, you know, we have these close relationships where we help each other, take care of each other and so on. And. And so we have that this is part of the systemic pattern. So it's so good. And we're kind of suppressing some of these things. So, like, I'm the only one that reacts to, you know, this gentleman closing the segment, meeting with prayer.

Lasse Meilsøe [01:25:35] And no one else is reacting to it because we have these, like, good relationship. Everybody is good, you're good, I'm good, and so on, and that we kind of overlook or suppress this. And I really appreciate Maven early on, you know, talking about consent, how we as male need to be educated because it feels like, yeah, well, we are married and we kind of have our needs and so, so on.

Lasse Meilsøe [01:25:58] And so as. As males, we have to be educated in that. And I think it's the same with members. We have to be educated. That it is not okay that bishops overstep their boundaries of what is okay for them to interview young people about whether it's young men or young women doesn't matter.

Lasse Meilsøe [01:26:20] And. And so. So. So that's like where. When. When Michael was telling me about this. Maybe if you don't mind jumping to slide 22, because. So really what was the most provocative almost experience I had is that this. The then state president, the state president during 2013 that was presiding over the council when Peter was disfellowshipped.

Lasse Meilsøe [01:26:46] And he was also the stake president in 2018 when Pieran Peter is going to the bishop. And we don't know if that bishop communicated to the stake person about it, but to me, it doesn't really matter because that bishop was a member of the high council. So the church leadership knows about this. The church leadership knew that he was disfellowshipped. And it continues. No one should feel like they're in a position where they say, well, I'm going to handle this case my way. And the state president doesn't need to get involved. That's the stake president's, you know, responsibility to keep the church clean. Right. And so, so no one that he chooses to be on the high council, you know, should, should get away with, you know, this, this kind of keeping the responsibility away from, from a peaceful holder.

Lasse Meilsøe [01:27:36] So when Michael was saying to me, oh, Lasse, you seem so normal and you don't mind talking to me and you are explaining things out of the handbook and so on. Like when whoever I talk to from the church, they're just saying, no, we have a, you know, we have an, an obligation not to disclose this to you.

Lasse Meilsøe [01:28:01] And the reason is that I'm a priest. So it's the priest pens and the privilege kind of that's invoked, sorry, and which does not exist in Denmark. And as you well know, all male members are priests. You know, if they're more than 16 years old and they're just a little bit active. So. But in Denmark there is some cases where an ordained priest actually has some kind of privilege. So which is the same kind of dilemma that you have in the US Whether, well, so you are always allowed to go to the police and share information you have. So you're never, you will never go to jail for that.

Lasse Meilsøe [01:28:49] But it's whether you have the obligation to do it or not. So there's like a light, light version of that doesn't really matter because it's only for the title of priest, which the state person in question then invokes. Well, I'm a priest by title, so therefore I cannot communicate to you about it. Of course, it's not actually him communicating this. It's communicated by lawyers who in Denmark happens to write in English.

John Dehlin [01:29:19] So let's let you, let's let you go ahead and finish out the timeline. So let's talk about the stake president becoming an area authority, which is even more sickening to me. Let's just finish out the story.

Lasse Meilsøe [01:29:33] Yeah. So it's just that the stakers are in question. So currently today he's an Area 70 general authority. And like I said before, he like others, good men and good women that are serving. But that doesn't mean that when we do things wrong that we actually have a pretty standard recipe for what we should do when we do things wrong. I used to flip chart teach that when I was a missionary. And so one of the things is to stop doing what you're doing wrong. It is to say Sorry. And it is to make good for, for what you have done wrong and is to ask for forgiveness.

Lasse Meilsøe [01:30:19] So these are like, I'm probably missing a step or two. So. And that's really what should have happened. So what should have happened is that the church represented by someone and apparently me should come out and say, you know what, you know, we are human and, and we are like serving in these voluntary positions. Besides the other full time job that we have with people that have all kinds of problems, we don't receive good full training in everything. In fact, we receive very little training in anything that's related to actual people and handling difficult people problems.

Lasse Meilsøe [01:31:04] And you know what, in the case with Kieran, whatever we might have done wrong, we are terribly sorry and we grieve with Kieran for what has happened to her and what she's had to endure and what I have done or what we as a church have done. You know, we want to make it better. We apologize and we want to just lie down and just try to see what can we learn from this and how can we do this better. And that was what really angered me that we can't do as a church what we as a church demand of ourselves as members.

Michael Teschl [01:31:45] Can I just say Lasse here from a journalistic point of view that when I call up the stake president here and other leaders from the church, no one, no one expresses one word of sympathy or feeling sorry about the situation or just a teeny tiny bit of understanding of the trauma that she has been through. Nothing. The only thing, it's like the shutters are going down. The only thing on their mind is protecting the church.

Michael Teschl [01:32:20] That is. And I actually. You, you asked before, John, about the, the most. I, I think that this is actually what left the, the, the, the biggest mark on, on me during the work on this case is that it's like you, you only get this close. The minute you start asking about things that are this serious, then it's like, well, you, you can come this far, but you can't actually touch us. You can't actually reach us with this thing that you are contacting us about because we are the chosen ones and we, we. Well, we stand trial to someone else than, than you do. And that's how it is.

Michael Teschl [01:33:07] And it's actually a little bit scary. I think that's the best word to put. It's a little bit scary that when you talk to people and when you say I'm calling you right now to try to understand a little bit better, your reaction back then when this happened and you just meet nothing. Nothing like not. It's just a little expression of sympathy towards the situation she's been through. Like Lesser said before, if he had said right away, we are horrified by this story and the things she went through is so terrible and we wish that we could have helped more and so, so on. And this gives us a course to turn the, the eye on ourselves and see how we can do things better in the future and so on. So nothing. There's nothing like that. It's immediately, oh, we can't talk about that. That is closed.

Lasse Meilsøe [01:34:06] That's so the reason I pointed out because you can say to some degree it doesn't really matter that the State President is now and Area 70, but it does because if the Church is to protect itself, it means to protect then Stake President and, and the fact that he had called this perpetrator to sit on his High Council when he is then disfellowshipped and so on. So it's, it's all a matter of protecting the perception or the possibility for exercising faith of men being called by God and promoted by God into a position like a general authority.

Lasse Meilsøe [01:34:53] I bet you anything that the European area presidency is paying sufficient attention to make sure that their people are protected and that the Church and the leadership structure is protected and so on. And not fully a matter of like what can we do to learn from this.

Lasse Meilsøe [01:35:15] I hope, and this is like one of the reasons that I'm participating in this, I hope that bishops will be significantly more careful now when they're interviewing someone or some male or female is coming to them asking for help in a situation like this. And I hope that they will do it not just out of fear, but also because they receive better training.

Lasse Meilsøe [01:35:38] And I at least hope that those people that have been involved in this and have known about this, that they kind of retract their noses a little bit and try to repent from what they, the ownership that they have had in this process. Like we all need.

John Dehlin [01:35:58] Thank you. Thank you, Bishop. Just so that we don't miss all the important details. So this Eric Bernstein guy who was the Stake President during a lot of this and later it became an Area Authority 70 in Europe. He refuses to really cooperate with law enforcement. He claims confidentiality and refuses to talk to the police to help with the prosecution of Peter. Is that correct?

Lasse Meilsøe [01:36:33] That's correct.

Michael Teschl [01:36:34] And then he does actually admit there to the police. It's, it's a four line interrogation report. He, he does admit to the police that they handled the case in the church internally.

Lasse Meilsøe [01:36:50] In 13.

Michael Teschl [01:36:51] In 13. But then he just says, well, I'm a priest, so I can't. I can't disclose anymore.

John Dehlin [01:36:59] And again, it sounds like from what you said previously, that he says that after, what, 13. That he wasn't aware of any other abuse that happened. Is that what you said previously?

Michael Teschl [01:37:10] Yeah. They categorically deny knowing anything to us, but to church members, they say they don't recollect. They don't have any.

John Dehlin [01:37:18] They don't remember being told, which the facts don't. Don't bear that out as being very likely.

Maven [01:37:24] Can he not be subpoenaed? If there's no clergy penitent privilege, can he not be forced to testify? And. And does. What about attorney privilege? That's stronger here. Does he have attorney privilege that protects him? Why can't he be made to talk?

Lasse Meilsøe [01:37:41] It was the. The actual legal case or criminal case was a matter of Peter admitting. I'm sorry, I'm fumbling the legal terms here. So. So he is admitting that he has perpetrated this crime. And. And so. So it's a little bit of like it's negotiated, so to speak, as the court case is being prepared and as it's executed. And it's a whole little story on its own how he initially, when he was reported to the lead to the police by Kiran, he admitted multiple rapes. And during the period up to and including 18.

Lasse Meilsøe [01:38:25] And then at the actual court hearing, there had been some changes done by the prosecution that Kieran was not informed or aware about. That ended up with him only being prosecuted for. For four instances of rape, but actually only ending up being, you know, serving time for the two of them for some legal, technical reasons about whether he had actually dropped her or if it was her taking the medicine on her own. So it's just like. And. And, yeah, so. So that's, you know, what happens in court from time to time.

Lasse Meilsøe [01:39:10] But. But. So when lawyers represent their client in court, that's an entirely different game than when in God's church, we are trying to serve justice and do what is right.

John Dehlin [01:39:25] Sure.

Lasse Meilsøe [01:39:25] And when a person, as Peter did, admitted that he had raped her multiple times, which is written, it's documented, it's available by documentation available to the church just in case.

John Dehlin [01:39:43] Yeah, the.

Lasse Meilsøe [01:39:44] Against all odds, so that they actually knew nothing about it since 2013, it's the written documentation available to the church now. And. And yeah.

John Dehlin [01:39:55] So what did y' all want to convey with this slide?

Lasse Meilsøe [01:39:59] It was just. It was like, in my participation so it's the first time on, I'm on TV and being reported and, and Michael interviewed me for it feels like a couple of hours and I was really nervous leading up to it and so on. And I, I feel that Michael skillfully has, you know, used, you know, made the whole documentation documentary and, and my addition to that has been carved out in a, in a way that is helpful to the documentation. This was the most important. This is the most important thing I

John Dehlin [01:40:31] said, John, where unfortunately the Church is more important than the members. The reputation of the Church, the financial interests of the Church, protecting your reputation is the most important thing that tracks. What about this slide?

The Church Denies Advising the Victim to Stay Silent

Lasse Meilsøe [01:40:48] And this, this slide is actually just that what the Church has protected itself against is that like in case the Church did know and the Church did know, because we know the bishop knew in 18 and the bishops are the Church together. The priesthood is the church. Right. So the Church did know and it is against the law for the Church to be involved in this and not reported. Like Michael, you know, help us understand in the beginning. So it is the lawful obligation of all Danish citizens and as well as the Church, the Church as an organization to report this to the police. And the Church didn't. So there are multiple things that's very

Michael Teschl [01:41:35] important to, to stress this. It. If you are aware that someone is, is being abused, then you are obligated to report it. And that's the entire question of this documentary. Were they aware that she was being. Did she tell them that she was being abused by him and that he has sexually abused her after 2013 and to 2018?

John Dehlin [01:42:03] Yeah. And clearly.

Michael Teschl [01:42:05] No.

John Dehlin [01:42:05] Yeah, clearly the Church can't be trusted. It has a long, long history of lying and hiding and covering things up. So, so you're. Basically the point of this slide is it's, it's a criminal offense.

Lasse Meilsøe [01:42:17] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:42:18] To fail to act when you know abuse is happening. And so what the Church does in that case is just lie and act like it did. No. And to the state is claiming it didn't know. I think that's right here. And then you have here that in a written response to the TV station, the Mormons Church denies they have been continually informed about the abuse. Obviously, Michael, you're not buying that, you're not believing that.

Michael Teschl [01:42:42] No. Yeah, I have to say. Well, that's, that's their answer to it. They say that they, they weren't aware that. And, and if they were aware of it, they would have asked her to, to contact the authorities. But as I explained before, she has this Those periodical interviews and talks with her bishop and her, the leaders of the church, and especially after the situation they were in in 2012 and 2013, the, the church knows that she had, that he has confessed drugging and raping her. So obviously they pay attention to this family and they talk to them and hear that. What's the status at home?

Michael Teschl [01:43:26] And so on, so on. I think it, I think it sounds very credible what she's saying, that she told them on these interviews and these, the talks that she held with the leaders from the church that she told them and informed them about what was going on and what she was writing in her diary when she, they came to visit. I, I believe she told her that. She told them that.

Michael Teschl [01:43:53] But can we prove it? No, but it, I think it's, it, it, it. I think it's very, I think she's very trustworthy. I have to say that.

John Dehlin [01:44:05] Incredible. She's credible. Okay, so, so, so basically he was prosecuted for minimal crimes. The Church did the best to protect him, to minimize the sentence that he received and served. The, The Mormon Church claims that it encouraged her to go to the police, which would be. Is completely unbelievable because that's something the church literally almost never does. It always does the opposite. It discourages people to go to authorities. So this is deeply, deeply suspect as well, saying that it advised Kieran to leave. Peter, again, the Church doesn't do that. The Church generally encourages abuse victims to stay with their abusers.

Michael Teschl [01:44:57] Well, you can see that in the bishop mail with the, the door lock. There's not one single mentioning of the option of leaving or the option of doing anything to the marriage or to the family situation. It is keeping it together by all means.

John Dehlin [01:45:14] Yeah. Which coincidentally is best for the church because as long as the family stays together, the marriage stays together, the kids are in the home, people are less likely to go to the police and they're less likely to speak the truth. So I think that the Church benefits from that sort of recommendation. Really quickly, would you mind sharing with us, Michael? You've talked about how the church basically just demeaned you as wanting to just criticize the church and having an axe to grind, so to speak. Can you talk about what the general public, what the reaction has been to this documentary from the general public of the citizens of Denmark. How has the story been received? How has it affected the Mormon Church's reputation and the case?

Public Reaction in Denmark and Political Implications

Michael Teschl [01:46:10] Well, I think I know that people have been shocked learning what's going on behind the church walls here, because in Denmark, what you, What We've been used to somehow is that these things happen in the, the Muslim communities with darkened people, you know, behind closed curtains and, and so on. Strong men that are ruling over all the women and telling everyone what to do. And you don't, you don't, you don't see that portrayed with people, highly educated, ethnical Danish people. You don't see that. You don't expect that to see that. But so I think that's what really shocked people that this is actually going on. This is this police officers, it's judges from the, from the court system, it's lawyers, it's engineers and so on. And in 200, very soon, 25,

Maven [01:47:17] You

Michael Teschl [01:47:17] know, a group of people looking at women as not equally qualified to be leaders of the organization for homosexuals to be less worthy. And you know, it's, it's just, it's unheard of. I think that people are really shocked to find out that this is how this church is operating in, in, in this day and age. I think that they're quite shocked at it.

John Dehlin [01:47:45] Let me ask you really quick, Bishop, two things. Has this affected activity rates in the Mormon Church in Denmark? Are people leaving the church over this? Are they outraged? Is it, is it having a backfire effect? And also, how are you being treated as a former bishop participating in a documentary that the church members would say is harming the reputation of the Mormon Church in Denmark?

Lasse Meilsøe [01:48:16] Yeah, well, first of all, so you do not win any popularity contest for participating in dialogues like this. And people consider it and are communicating to me that I'm participating in anti moment, like negative things against the church. And my response is, you know, we love the sinner, but we hate the sin. And it doesn't matter if it's a private person or if it's a church. And what I do not appreciate are these systemic challenges.

Lasse Meilsøe [01:48:54] So Brother Bansko, the bishop in question, anybody else that served as a bishop, I know that they are actually doing their best. And there's very little even cases where people are like deliberately, evilly doing something. It is a systemic problem. And so the only way we can change is change. This is if I speak up and if Kieran, who is really the hero of this story, and we cannot praise her enough for that because she's already opened the door for others to come and speak up, which is, so we need as members in Denmark, really members around. I'm, I'm sure that this is exactly the same in any other European country as it is true in many American states.

Lasse Meilsøe [01:49:42] Right. So, so, so we need for someone in each local area or for someone in Germany, in France, in Spain, whatever, to listen to Kieran's story and then members being willing to just say, hey, that's not us. This is not what we signed up for. This is not what is part of our local culture here. So if there is some kind of a lawyer based subculture, part of the church in the US that has nothing to do with the Danish culture and I can decide that and the other members in Denmark, we can decide that and we can be better at protecting someone like Kieran and we can help the other one.

Lasse Meilsøe [01:50:21] So to Michael and to myself, multiple women have already come forward also with abuse experiences. Some of them anonymously and some of them by name. And others have just come forward and said, well, thank you, Lasse, for you being a man and then stating this. It's a hundred times stronger when you do it, when you do it as if I, if I as a woman is doing it. So we need more men taking up ownership of, you know, this culture and wanting to break down whatever systemic problems that we are able to identify and do something about.

Lasse Meilsøe [01:50:59] So, so I'm not super optimistic. I'm getting the dead eye from most of my friends, former friends and, you know, ward members. And I just consider it out of ignorance and not fully understanding. And like I said to Michael in one of the podcasts that sometimes in history there's a line where you have to choose.

Lasse Meilsøe [01:51:28] And you know what, in our life, we sometimes look for purpose and define our role and mission and so on. And sometimes purpose just finds you. And that's what I feel, that in this case, purpose found me. And I just want to make sure that I stand on the right side of this line right now because history will obviously show that in this case there is only one correct line or one side to stand on.

John Dehlin [01:52:03] Are you worried that you might get excommunicated for, for supporting what many would perceive to be opposition to the church?

Lasse Meilsøe [01:52:12] No, I'm not worried about that because I am not in opposition to the church. In Denmark we have free speech and I have free speech even though I'm a member of the church. And I don't want to challenge fate. But I haven't talked anything about Joseph Smith. I haven't talked anything about whether the priesthood is real or exists or whether sacrament is actually something that makes a difference in, in life or a family home. Evening is good. I've talked about rape and covering up rape and pretending that it doesn't happen and lie about it. Support a rapist in his court case by not being willing to testify about knowledge that you do have and so on. I'm against that, and I'm against that at any time.

John Dehlin [01:53:02] Yeah, well, I certainly hope you're right. Of course, Natasha Helfer Parker and Sam Young never talked about Joseph Smith or priesthood authority. They only challenged the church on how it dealt with abuse and mental health. And they got excommunicated. But I'm hoping that, of course, that fate doesn't come to you. Michael and Bishop Mileso, you both have been very, very generous with your time. Michael, I want to give you a chance to share any final thoughts or impressions or requests with us. I know we've gone a little bit over time, so. So, Michael, what final words would you like to share with our audience?

Closing Reflections from the Reporter and Bishop

Michael Teschl [01:53:43] I, I would like to share that most of the, the members of the church that have contacted me, they have not walked away slamming the door, walked away in anger. What they actually are looking for is to bring this church into the time that we live in. They want to modernize the church and they want to be part of the leadership. They want to be. Have the same authority as men have. They don't want to have female roles. That looks like something from the last century. They want to modernize the church and, and, and actually keep the church stay in the, in the church. So I think that's actually very, I think that's a very fine way to protest and I think the church leadership should think a little bit about that. I think they should think about that.

Future Coverage and Ongoing Investigations

John Dehlin [01:54:45] Michael, do you, do you plan on doing. Covering the story more or do you feel like you're kind of ready to move on?

Michael Teschl [01:54:51] There's so many leads. It's still coming in emails coming in just today. I, I counted it right before we went online here. There's 12 today. New emails from members and former members of the church who wants to share their experiences and what they have seen and how they have been treated in the church. And I think the more. And that's because of Kieran and that's because of Lesser who's, who's also sharing his, his view on this, that they are actually coming out right now and, and, and sharing their stories. And I think that's what's needed in this situation. The more people that, that, that contact people like me, the more we can put focus on this in the, in the, in the public's eye.

John Dehlin [01:55:43] So Michael, if people want to reach out to you and give you a tip, how do they, how do they contact you?

Michael Teschl [01:55:50] Oh, we should put an email up here.

John Dehlin [01:55:53] Yeah, you go and just read it. Read your email if you want.

Michael Teschl [01:55:59] Oh, yeah, one second. I see the. We have a. A. We have a website called Meskefeld as a Danish word, but it's M, A, S, K, E, F, A, L, dk.

John Dehlin [01:56:14] Okay. And that's. That's a website. And on that website, how do they contact you?

Michael Teschl [01:56:20] There is a contact form they can write.

John Dehlin [01:56:23] Okay.

Michael Teschl [01:56:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:56:24] Any. Any final words to the church or to the members or anything. Michael, we just. You know, I. I personally can't thank you enough for covering this. It sounds like there's going to be, like, a spotlight. I'm sure you're familiar with that term in the United States. It references to the abuse, systemic abuse in the Catholic Church. It sounds like the Mormon Church might be having a spotlight moment in Denmark. Does that sound like what's about to happen, Michael?

Michael Teschl [01:56:51] Yeah. Well, you know, if I. If I could say one thing to them, to the leaders of the church, I would say, wake up. Wake up and. And smell the coffee. Wake up to 20, 25 and start on anew, because they are plenty of room for improvement.

John Dehlin [01:57:09] All right.

Michael Teschl [01:57:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:57:11] Thank you so much, Michael. I'm gonna give Maven a chance to close, but before I do, Bishop Mileso, I just have to ask you again. There's this thing called the Swedish rescue that happened, you know, back in the 2000 teens, where a bunch of Swedish members of the church started their faith, and. And it caused this mass apostasy in Sweden where the Mormon Church had to send Marlon Jensen and Richard Turley out to try and rescue the church in Sweden. Are you. Are you seeing any signs of a Danish rescue needing to happen on the horizon? Is this leading to significant apostasy of the church in Denmark, as far as you see? And is there any final words you want to share before Maven helps us wrap things up?

Lasse Meilsøe [01:58:01] Right. So, no, I. First of all, it's, like, happening more or less as we speak, Right? So. So these things are weeks old, so there's not, like, an effect that you are able to measure right now. Michael was asking me in the podcast that we did one of the episodes as well, about, like, is the church growing? Or, you know, what's the state of the church? So when I go to church on a Sunday, then there's like, if 50% of the seeds are filled up, then that's a stretch.

Lasse Meilsøe [01:58:37] So. So it's, like, half empty in my ward, which is like a big ward that is actually previously two wards combined, and we are like, not even filling up the seats as it is right now. So. So I think that there's like a general decline that you guys have actually analyzed from already. And. And so I think that the. The active members right now, it's like the remaining solid bunch, so to speak. So I. But. But several members that have written me in private messages have said, oh, let's say if you get excommunicated from this, then we're definitely leaving. Which is absurd to me. But I appreciate, like, the sentiment of the support.

Maven [01:59:18] Support.

Lasse Meilsøe [01:59:19] So I. I think that what members are looking for is like, Michael is encouraging something that's like, within this century. So let's just, you know, I'm talking about Denmark or European local communities right now. Let's create and own more of our local Danish culture. And let's not just in inherit from the US The. The lawyerish church, corporate church culture. And. And I would actually like Maven, if you don't mind. I just want to wrap up with slide 29. That was on there for a second before. I just think this is such a beautiful picture to end up on with Kieran's now husband protecting her.

John Dehlin [02:00:04] That's beautiful. So I'm guessing he's not Mormon and never been Mormon.

Lasse Meilsøe [02:00:09] No. Correct.

Michael Teschl [02:00:11] True.

Maven [02:00:12] I'll go ahead and read it for those listening. It's a quote from the show. Translated, she says, I had been let down in the religious community I was a part of, and then I am also let down by the rule of

John Dehlin [02:00:24] law, but supported by her never Mormon husband. Did you want to ask people that, Bishop Malso?

Lasse Meilsøe [02:00:33] Oh, sorry. Ask again. Sorry.

John Dehlin [02:00:35] Did you have feelings you wanted to share about that?

Lasse Meilsøe [02:00:39] Yeah. It's difficult to do without becoming emotional, I think.

John Dehlin [02:00:42] Okay.

Lasse Meilsøe [02:00:42] For me, it's just symbolic that he's doing what we were supposed to have done, and I'm happy she found it.

John Dehlin [02:00:51] Beautiful. Beautiful. Maven, you get the final word, because I'll just say I want to thank Maven. Well, I want to thank Bishop Milso. I want to thank Michael. I want to thank the TV network that covered this. I want to thank, of course, most importantly, the victim, Kiran, because none of this could happen without her and her courage and all those involved. And then finally, I just want to thank you, Maven, because this wouldn't happen without you. So final words from you, Maven.

Maven [02:01:27] Again, just more thanks for you guys for coming on. And this is my first time co hosting a show like this. I think our audience will notice, and I did notice as well. I'm a little excited And I might have jumped in a bit. Talking over you, Bishop. And over you, Michael Teschl. You guys took it like a champ, and I appreciate your patience with me doing something like this. And same goes for John. And, yeah, I hope that we can hear more about what's happening in Denmark. I really hope the country can keep the church accountable, and I really do hope. I know.

Maven [02:02:04] Same with you, Bishop. Based on how the members tend to act in a very predictable way, I don't have much hope either that we can change it soon. But I really do want to have that hope. And I hope that you'll keep trying and maybe in the future we can see some more systemic changes, because I also do not want to see the churches Curtin McConkey Lawyer culture end up everywhere else in the world, so.

John Dehlin [02:02:33] Well, Michael and Bishop Mileso, you guys know that we're the largest Mormon themed podcast in the world, so I hope you'll feel very welcome to come back on the show and update us as the story develops. Does that sound okay?

Lasse Meilsøe [02:02:48] Yeah.

Michael Teschl [02:02:50] I will keep you posted on what's going on in Scandinavia.

John Dehlin [02:02:53] Okay.

Maven [02:02:54] Thank you, Michael.

John Dehlin [02:02:55] Michael, thank you so much for all you do. Yeah. And Bishop Mileso, I hope we can have you back. Maybe you could tell your Mormon story at some point.

Lasse Meilsøe [02:03:03] I'd be happy to.

John Dehlin [02:03:05] Okay. All right, Maven. And thanks so much for making this happen. Maven.

Maven [02:03:09] Bye, everyone.

Farewell and Thanks to Guests

Lasse Meilsøe [02:03:10] All right, everybody.

John Dehlin [02:03:11] Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories podcast, everyone. If you've got stories, we love covering countries outside the United States. So if you've got big stories, wherever you are, New Zealand, Australia, Europe, Asia, Africa, Latin America, wherever you are, North America, Canada, we would love to have you write in and volunteer to come on Mormon Stories Podcast. You can go to mormonstories.org you could apply to be on the show, of course, and you can also email us@mormonstoriesgmail.com and, you know, we want to thank our donors that make Mormon Stories possible. If you're a donor, thank you. If you're not a donor, it's easy to become a monthly donor.

John Dehlin [02:03:59] You just go to MormonStories.org, click on the donate button, and sign up to become a monthly donor. If you want to see the Mormon Church held accountable, we do our part to help hold the church accountable worldwide and to help bring visibility to these types of stories that could potentially just stay in Denmark without more visibility. We also check out Nemo the Mormon. He covered this story as well. We want to give a shout out to Nemo. He's sort of our European bureau chief in some ways. So please support Nemo the Mormon and the good work that he does as well. Anyway, we appreciate everyone today.

John Dehlin [02:04:40] Thanks for joining us. Be good to each other, be kind to each other, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care, everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.