Introduction and Episode Overview

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's November 6, 2025 and today we have an epic, important, fascinating, riveting Mormon Stories interview. We're going to be covering themes like what happens when your dad's excommunicated in the Mormon Church? Or what happens when you're trying to date Mormon men and a bunch of them are gay? What's that like to date gay Mormon men? How does that work out? But even more interestingly, we're going to be talking about what happen when your spouse passes away and you're sealed to that spouse in an eternal Mormon marriage and you're a woman. And then you find another Mormon man that you want to get married to and get sealed to him. But you have to contemplate, do I try and get the sealing canceled or not? Will they let me cancel the sealing as a woman? Some of you may know that our current prophet and our previous prophet in the Mormon Church both were sealed to multiple women. And that that's been not a problem in the Mormon Church for a long, long time. But there's some weird double standard in the church around men being able to be sealed to multiple women, but women needing to get a sealing canceled to a first spouse to then get sealed to the second. And we've got someone who went through the process to try and navigate all that and she's got some insight to share on that as well. Those are just some of the themes that we're gonna be covering today. I'm gonna thrilled to be joined with my co host and partner, Margi. Hey, Margi. Hello. Are you excited for today?

Margi Dehlin [00:01:41] I am very excited for today, thanks for asking.

John Dehlin [00:01:43] I love that sweater.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:45] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:01:46] And today it's a hat day for me just cause I woke up on the wrong side of the bed.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:50] It's looking great, babe.

John Dehlin [00:01:51] I had a headache and Margi's like, you can wear a hat, it's okay. Wear a hat.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:55] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:01:56] I'm like, okay. So anyway, and most importantly, we're excited to have our guest who is also a professor in Texas, but Rebecca Lucero Jones, welcome to Mormon Stories podcast.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:02:12] Thank you for having me. I'm glad to be here.

John Dehlin [00:02:14] Now, I probably didn't do your introduction justice, so how would you want to introduce yourself to your audience?

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:02:21] Well, yeah, let me, I guess just do a really brief overview of who I am. I work as a professor in marriage and family therapy, so I train marriage and family therapists. I have a private Practice as well, where I mainly work with adults at this point. So, yeah, I'm a practicing marriage and family therapist. I also supervise marriage and family therapists who are already in the field. And I do. I recently started a podcast with my husband. So, you know, I just keep adding jobs. It's called Keeping it up with the Joneses.

John Dehlin [00:02:54] And is it couples, but also relationship, even sexual health. Is that right?

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:03:00] So both of us, one of our shared research interests is sexual communication. And so it mainly covers our research that we've done on sexual communication. So right now only season one is out and that's on our research in sexual communication in heterosexual couples. We are currently. We've actually already collected all the data for sexual communication in, sorry, LGBTQ and polyamorous couples because the basically you need to ask different questions and things need to be a little bit different for different populations. And so pretty soon we'll be publishing on that and we'll have a season on that as well.

Margi Dehlin [00:03:37] Exciting.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:03:38] Yeah. And then I think also other seasons will just focus on research based things that we can talk about in regards to relationships and in particular the sexual relationship.

John Dehlin [00:03:49] Excellent. Were there any major themes that you want to make sure we cover that I didn't mention in the teaser, or did I get them all or most of them?

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:03:57] I think you got the major themes. I'm sure little things will seep out here and there. It might. I'm sure it'll come out. But like being a working woman, as someone who is raised Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:04:08] Yes. And trying to.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:04:09] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:10] As a single Mormon mom who's working. Right.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:04:13] Yeah. And I actually have done research on working Mormon women and conflict in their families and published on that. So anyway, yeah, I'm happy to talk about that experience as well. I'm sure it'll just come out because it's literally how I exist, but.

John Dehlin [00:04:26] Okay, excellent. All right, well, Rebecca Lucera Jones, where does your Mormon story begin? Is it Dr. Rebecca Lucerra Jones?

Rebecca's Background and Early Life

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:04:34] Yeah, it's Dr. But even my students, I'm like, call me Rebecca. Some of them like to call me Dr. L.J. because they can't not call me doctor, but. Right. They.

Margi Dehlin [00:04:44] Yeah.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:04:44] I don't know, they feel more personal.

John Dehlin [00:04:47] Where does your Mormon story begin?

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:04:48] Yeah. So I am the middle of five children and I was born in Missouri, so I think that's important to know that, like, I'm not from Utah. My parents are originally from Idaho, so they grew up. And most of my relatives, like, we would always travel back to Utah, Idaho area. So most of our relatives Grew up in kind of a Mormon saturated community, but we grew up in St. Louis where there was quite a bit of diversity. My oldest brother, this is just kind of a side note, but I think it is interesting. My oldest brother was actually born with down syndrome. Well, so there are actually six children, but none of us ever lived when he did. He was born with down syndrome and died when he was 2 in surgery. Probably surgery that now would have been successful. So there was some grief early on, I think, for my parents with kind of the start of their family. Probably, I think the most important thing to start with is I. You know, probably my earliest memories of faith really are kind of grounded in the trauma that occurred in my family with my parents divorce. My dad ended up being excommunicated because he did fall in love with a woman that he worked with.

John Dehlin [00:06:09] You're like six, right?

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:06:11] And I was like five or six. Yeah. And so I actually, in preparation for this interview, like, pulled out old journals and just to kind of like check, like, are were things the way I remembered them? And I actually found a paper that I wrote in my AP English class, and it was me reflecting on my parents divorce and them disclosing that to me and how they like gathered us and told us. And at the time I really couldn't understand, right, like, mom and dad aren't getting along. Dad's gonna move out, Mom's crying. My older sister was like 12 or 13, and so she understood kind of what was happening, but I didn't. And I remember we. We lived in a huge home. So my dad had just. My dad's a doctor, he just finished his residency. And we'd moved into this like million dollar, beautiful French home in St. Louis. And it had a third story, and it had like a basement. It was really. It was a really large house. In fact, we had not filled it with furniture. Like, it was like we had this old furniture, like med school student furniture in this beautiful, gorgeous house. And I remember when they told us, like we were on the second floor and like my oldest sister like runs down all the flights of stairs into our basement. And our basement had a dance room. Like, wood floors, lined wall with mirrors. Like just a little girl's fantasy, right? And we had these big, huge gymnastic mats, and they ran to the mats and they were sitting on those and they were crying. And I remember thinking, I want to cry too, right? But I didn't know why we were crying and I couldn't cry, but I knew something bad was happening. And now as a therapist I will probably get emotional throughout all this. I, like, didn't understand what was happening, but I could understand that something really bad was happening to my family. And now as a therapist, I think I can see that, like, kids often don't have the story, but they do have all the feelings, and kids grieve in all sorts of ways. And as I reread that paper, I learned it was really interesting as a therapist to read it. And I was like, oh, yeah, this is. Even at 17, I'm reflecting on this the way a child does, which is, I'm grieving, something's bad. This is bad. And now I just want to go play. Like, why are we crying on the gymnastics mats? Why aren't we doing a cartwheel?

John Dehlin [00:08:31] Right?

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:08:31] Just kind of this back and forth that children go through. And so that's kind of, I would say, the formation of me really, I think, coming to terms with, like, what is a family. And I do remember my mom losing quite a bit of weight. And I don't remember her, like, being depressed, although I imagine, like, how could you not be? She was suddenly becoming a single mother, five children. Right. That had to be very overwhelming. I don't. My understanding is I don't think my mom could have ever conceived that divorce was an option. Like, I just don't. That's not how people. How families were where she grew up. It just was not in her realm, the realm of possibility for her. And so it was really tough on her to understand, I think, how my dad could leave, especially with a child that had been deceased. Right. Like, we were an eternal family. So how do you leave when one of our children, you know, is in the eternities? Right. Like, if we're not together, we won't all be together. So I think there was just, like, an overwhelming amount of grief. Obviously, they divorced and, you know, we did the, like, visits with dad and, you know, every other weekend, every Tuesday, we go out to dinner with dad. But honestly, that was like, some of my first memories of my dad in the sense that, like, my dad had been really busy with medical school and residency. So as far as, like, really getting to know him, having this set aside time, that's, like, when I did get to know my dad. Right. But in a lot of ways, I think my mom's grief and her experience formed how I also viewed my dad. My older siblings did not want to go with my dad. I also remember not wanting to go with my dad. I don't know how much of that's, like, as a child like, here's your house, here's your toys. We don't want to go in to Dad's, like, lame apartment, right. Or, like, that's not by our friends. Right. I'm not sure how much of it had to do with that, but there was quite a bit of conflict. And I do remember the police came to our house, would come. My dad would call the police because my older siblings would be like, we're not going, right? So they were not complying with the court orders. So my dad would call the police. And like, I kid you not, like, only, like, a couple years ago, I was, like, talking to somebody and I was like, yeah, I guess that was really weird, right? Like, I guess that was really weird, right?

Family Upheaval and Parental Conflict

John Dehlin [00:11:01] I've never heard of that, but I'm not super experienced.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:11:04] But, yeah, that. That's kind of a weird thing. And that may be traumatizing to a child that, like, the parents could not figure out how to support the divorce arrangement and that. Right. The kids are refusing to go, and now the police are being called. And I don't say that to place blame on any of them, on either parent, but it is kind of just interesting, right, to think that, like, they must have not had the skills or the support to really figure out a better way than to have the police come to the house and say, like, hey, you probably need to go with your dad. And I actually don't remember if the police really forced or anything, but there was just a lot of tension. And so a highly acrimonious divorce. A highly acrimonious divorce. And eventually we did stop going with our dad on visits, and just the younger two were kind of obligated to keep going every other weekend. It's kind of like as you got older and you had more, you know, extracurriculars. I think my dad kind of at some point probably was just exhausted from trying to get us to go.

John Dehlin [00:12:10] And so that probably shaped how you viewed your mom versus your dad. Is that right?

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:12:15] Yes. I think in many ways, I always thought of my mom as very strong. I still think my mom is a very strong woman. Yes. I think I clung to my mom a lot. I mean, I knew my mom. She was definitely a caretaker. She stayed home even after the divorce. She was able to get a really good divorce settlement where she was able to stay home and raise us, which is just unfathomable now. And so I do think that in a lot of ways, I aligned a lot with my mom. And I think as far as the excommunication Piece. Right. How does a six year old understand that? They don't. I do remember I have an older sister that was about eight at the time, which as a therapist, I think eight is a really young age, is a really rough age to have any sort of crisis happen. It seems in my clinical perspective, trauma seems to be worsened when it happens around that age. And I think it has to do with developmentally that you're just beginning to determine what's real and what's not real. Just that's what's going on in the brain. And she seemed very sensitive to what was going on. She was the one that was probably leading the, like, we're not gonna go with you. I also remember her asking, like, are you gonna get rebaptized? Like really longing for. Yeah, to him. Really longing for him to like come back in some sort of way. Not necessarily to the family. He did end up marrying the woman that he had had a relationship with while my parents were married, and they're still married and they have two grown children. I can't say, I can't speak to the health of the relationship in any way. But that's a long marriage. Right. Longer than my parents. So I imagine it's satisfying enough. Right. Which I think maybe the narrative had been like, right. If you step out on your family, that probably won't last long, but it has.

John Dehlin [00:14:13] And you mentioned the outline, like, mom good, dad bad. Right?

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:14:17] Yes, that's what I'm trying to get to. Sorry. Yes. And so I think for a child, the way. And again, I can't say that this is actually how it was conveyed to me, but this is how I internalize it, which I think is important to know is like, how do you explain to a child that dad is now going to be married to his nurse? Right. Like, it's not like at some point we're gonna put the pieces together of what happened. So ever since I can remember, I knew that there was an affair, which is a lot for a six year old to understand when they probably don't even understand sex. It's like everything was exposed. Right. Due to the level of conflict and understanding that too. And him leaving the church, like leaving. And again, the narrative was leaving the family. I don't know if that was my dad's intention to leave the family, but that was the narrative. Right. That he left all of us. Or at least that's how I internalize it.

John Dehlin [00:15:14] Someone's gotta leave. Right? Someone's gotta leave the house.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:15:16] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:15:16] Yeah.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:15:18] And so I think the way. Because he did get excommunicated. It was understood to me. Dad made a choice. Like dad followed Satan.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:28] That's right.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:15:29] And so I think in my mind it was dad. Is dad bad? Mom good. And not that I thought my dad was all bad, but I really didn't have the relationship with my dad. Right. I had not had. I mean, five kids, he's in residency. There's no relationship to contradict that he's making bad choices. Right. And that I should trust.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:52] Yeah.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:15:52] Or that I should trust him over my mother. Right. So. And I think this is true. Most kids in a divorce, especially if there's high conflict, they are gonna cling to a parent because your parents are one entity as a child only. Divorce exposes that they are separate. And once that breaks, you can be left, too.

John Dehlin [00:16:12] Yeah.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:16:13] Right. So you align with whatever parent it feels like it's going to be safest. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:21] Yeah. And then I. And you may know that I experienced Mormon divorce in my middle, middle school years. And what did it. What message did it send to you about the importance of living the gospel? You know, following the rules, being obedient.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:16:37] Yes. Yes. So. And I don't know. Right. It's hard to know what was, like, happening in real time versus, like, how it gets storied after. But I think definitely the story was vigilance. We need to be vigilant. That maybe there were things, like things we didn't see, things my dad had done that had maybe been ignored, that were signs. And so I grew up in a home that was very, very faithful. I wouldn't say it was completely rigid. Cause there's ways that my mom's really flexible and I think a really great parent. I think when it came to the gospel, though, I think some things were really intense. Like we couldn't watch PG13 movies even once we were 13. I have this wonderful story of how I'm 13 and Titanic was the movie.

John Dehlin [00:17:32] This has come up just this month.

Margi Dehlin [00:17:34] I will say.

John Dehlin [00:17:34] Really? This is a bit of a recurring second or third. Tell us more. Yes.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:17:41] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:17:41] So the question is who you were attracted to. Because sometimes it's different.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:17:45] Oh.

John Dehlin [00:17:45] Or both.

Margi Dehlin [00:17:46] That's the case.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:17:47] Or both.

John Dehlin [00:17:47] Who could be either one?

Margi Dehlin [00:17:49] Yeah.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:17:49] Yes. That's a great point. That's not where my story goes. So we had a movie theater at a mall, and I was 13. Right. So I was gonna be able to get in. And I knew my mom well. My mom didn't let us go to any PG13 movies, but I knew for sure. Not that one, because Right. There were gonna be boobs. But I was like, I got boobs, right? Whatever. Right? So it's like, not like I hadn't seen boobs before. I. I got a mom, right? Like, you know, you accidentally walking in a lot of people in my family and. But so my friend and I planned to go to the mall, and my mom dropped me off at her house, and they dropped us off there, and I was going to return something to one of the stores at the mall when I went to the movie, and I forgot it. So my mom calls the friend's mom and says, oh, Rebecca left the shirt. I need to get this to her at the mall. And she's like, well, they went to the movie. She goes, what movie? And my mom's friend was like, titanic. And my mom says, she's not supposed to be seeing that. And she's like, well, I let my daughter see it. Cause you were letting your daughter see it. And my mom literally came in to the movie theater and got me out. And it was right as they were getting on the boat. And so I never saw Titanic. I literally saw it, like, a year ago. We showed it to our kids. And that was the first time I saw the full movie was just a year ago. I was like. By the time I was like, the full movie? Yeah, the full movie. It's a long movie.

Margi Dehlin [00:19:09] Yeah.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:19:10] But by the time I think I just was. So, like, the time had passed to see the movie, and then it was like, you know, three hours. And, yeah, the moment had passed. In that moment, though, I actually did not process that as, like, my mom's ridiculous. I actually process that as, like, my mom's for real. Like, my mom really believes this.

John Dehlin [00:19:30] Stakes are high.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:19:31] Yeah. And not. Not to me, it's. In some ways, I think it did bring a level of security of, like, my mom will inconvenience herself to if she believes something. So in a lot of ways, I think it made me think, I gotta figure out what I think about this. Cause this woman is like, she's not messing around. You know what I mean? So in some ways, I think it built trust of, like, my mom's boundaries are her boundaries, you know? And I don't know that I was really embarrassed, but it is just like a funny story of, like, most people's parents would've just grounded them afterwards or something. But no, my mom, she's coming in and being like, Rebecca. And I don't remember getting in trouble. Just, she intervened. But that was kind of the level of commitment, right.

Growing Up in a Divided Mormon Family

John Dehlin [00:20:17] I Have to ask what was it like for you to sing? Families can be together forever. In primary, knowing your family had been separated or did that not register for you?

Margi Dehlin [00:20:27] That's something you were aware of.

John Dehlin [00:20:28] For me, it was like a childhood trauma, but maybe you didn't experience it that way.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:20:33] I probably experienced sadness about that. I don't remember it being traumatic. I do remember Father's Day sometimes feeling, like, painful, but that might be it. Yeah.

Teen Years, Dating, and Church Culture

John Dehlin [00:20:49] So should we talk about teen years and what that was like?

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:20:53] Yeah, yeah, let's talk about dating.

John Dehlin [00:20:54] And that's next thing in your.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:20:56] Yeah, yeah. So dating in Missouri with the Mormon standards of, like, don't go on, don't steady date was really rough.

John Dehlin [00:21:07] And don't date before you're 16.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:21:09] Because what it really meant was don't date at all. Right. And I think that's how it kind of ended up getting enforced. There was a boy I really liked. He had gotten, I guess, like, reactivated his family and he came back and so they were like the new boys in the ward. And he was really cute, and I remember having a crush and wanting to date him, but it was like, there were like, three boys and they were all really nice that were my age. But the other one, one of his friends, he liked me. And I was like, what, am I supposed to go out with the guy I like and then go out with his best friend that likes me, but I don't really like him? Like, am I supposed to rotate? Right.

John Dehlin [00:21:48] So you don't get too serious with one.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:21:49] Yeah, so you don't get serious.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:51] How does this work?

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:21:51] Yeah, like, how would that even work? And so what ended up happening is that I didn't. I didn't end up dating. Right. Because it just wasn't possible. I actually need to back up a little bit because I think this is really important too. When I was 12, the way our, like, junior high is organized, you kind of fall into teams. And so I ended up being in classes, like, grouped on this team. And all those classes, you're with that same group of people on the team. None of them were from my elementary school. So I made new friends and. And they were very popular. In fact, some of them were, like, smoking. Some of them were having sex. I had a sleepover. And I remember that one of them saying something about, like, oh, so and so said, his penis is bigger since the last time I saw it. And I just thought they were being kind of

Margi Dehlin [00:22:41] silly.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:22:42] Like, boys in sixth grade and seventh grade were kind of perverted. And they'd say, Things I didn't realize. I was like, oh, no. They had probably had. She'd probably given them oral sex. Is like, later what I. Later what I learned. So they were really doing things that weren't with. Obviously in the LDS norm. But that was what my friends, some of my friends were doing. My mom was worried about these friends. I didn't really hang out with them outside of school. But I think it's important to note that I really did fall into this popular crowd and that in many ways, I was enjoying popularity. I had quite a few boyfriends. And obviously in sixth grade, it's like, do you have a crush on me? Do I have a crush on you? And so it's kind of stupid and it doesn't last very long. But there were a lot of times boys would ask me to be their girlfriend. I literally didn't even know who they were. And one time they were like, Charles, you know, Anyway, that's his name, Charles. I don't know if you're out there, but he had asked if I wanted to be his girlfriend. And I said, well, I don't know who he is. And I saw him and he was really cute. And so I was like, yeah, I do wanna be your girlfriend. Anyway, one day he was, like, leaving town. We were waiting for our parents. And he's like, can I have a kiss goodbye? And I was like, sure, right? Like, just like a peck. And my sister was watching because she was also getting picked up by her parents. Well, she told on me. And again, this wasn't, like, anything super serious on my part, but I got him. I don't know that I even got in big trouble. I should not say that because I don't think. I don't think I even. There was no punishment, but I think I felt, like, ashamed that, like, I'd kissed somebody. And I don't know why this made me emotional, but I think it did feel like some sort of failure on my part. Like, I wasn't doing what I was supposed to. And when I was 16, there was a moment at a New Year's party where with all my friends and all my Mormon friends knew I liked this boy. And we were, like, really close friends and probably would have started dating. We weren't quite 16. Everybody, like, left the dance floor of my friend's basement so that we could kiss. But my parents, my mom's upstairs and. And I. I didn't obviously. Like, I felt, like, so awkward, right, that I was in a room. And, like, it's not that I wouldn't have wanted to kiss him at, like, I'm almost 16. Of course, I'm very interested in that. But I think what happened for me is, like, I was like, I can't. And then I remember, like, going outside and, like, talking to him and saying, like, it's not that I don't want to kiss you. I was like, my mom's upstairs. Like, everybody's leaving the room. That's, like, so, like, so much pressure. And we did end up dating. And I felt like, in a way, we did end up dating. Well, one cause of the rules, but also because he felt so rejected by me. And I felt like, in a lot of ways, that was me trying to protect myself from this. Kind of like, you shouldn't be kissing boys. You shouldn't be dating. And so in a lot of ways, that was just, like, cut off from me. Like, it wasn't.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:37] Yeah.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:25:37] Like, I wasn't allowed to be a young girl, and I was. Was super boy crazy.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:42] Right.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:25:43] Like, I always had crushes on boys, and so that kind of. I don't really necessarily always think of that as super painful, but I feel like it was maybe just an experience where things kept, like, preventing me from developing relationships with young men in a way that I would say is really normal and developmentally appropriate.

Margi Dehlin [00:26:06] That's right. I'm noticing, like, you're. It's clear you have desire. You're experiencing, like, developmentally appropriate, like, desire and yearning and even wanting that connection. Here's my question for you. I'm curious if in these moments, you've described a couple moments with your mom where your mom kind of comes in with regard to the standards of the church, and is this interrupter. Do you feel like, as a child that maybe you conflated the idea of your obedience, you being obedient to some of these things, not doing, like, not seeing PG13 movies, not kissing boys as, like, caring for her, like, not letting her down in a way that she had been let down and that you witnessed all this pain and fallout. Like, do you feel like that was confusing for you at all?

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:27:07] Um, yeah. I mean, I think definitely part of it's that, like, there could definitely be a part of that, of pleasing my mom or.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:15] Or taking care of her in that way, like, not wanting to disappoint, or was the disappointment you were describing for yourself like, I was. I was disappointed in myself when I did those things?

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:27:28] No, I really, like, with the kissing the boy when I was 12, I really had, like, zero thoughts or regrets about it. Like, I Understood it was a young age to kiss, but it was like a peck. So it was like, this isn't that big of a deal. I'm not making out, right? Like, I kissed him goodbye. And I could understand the concern. I think it. I think sometimes there was a feeling of like, my mom's got eyes in the back of her head, right? Like that. I think that felt really real for me. And there's a lot of moments where, I mean, she was paying attention. And on some level, like, I think that's really awesome, right? A parent that's paying attention. I think probably a bigger theme for me is often feeling like, I'm just doing me and, like, finding out that other people are like, that that's not the right way to be. Like, there's some stories about, like, how I would mismatch clothes and how it's like, why are you mismatching clothes? And it's like, cause, well, why do I always have to wear that shirt with that bottom?

Margi Dehlin [00:28:32] Right?

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:28:33] There's a story of me in a st. A keychain that says, I'm weird, not gifted. And I was like, mom, this is mean. And she's like, well, it's cause you were in the gifted program. And I was like, yeah, but it means I weird. And she didn't. I mean, she didn't mean it that way. But I do think I often feel that sometimes there's certain things about me that feel confusing to other. Maybe not to other people, but in my family, like, surprising. And so I think it fits into that other thing of, like, getting this feedback of, like, I thought this was normal. I'm doing what other kids do and then finding out like, oh, no, this is really. This is not appropriate. It's not okay.

John Dehlin [00:29:21] And also, one thing that came up for me just as curiosity, is just, if your dad blew up the family because of, like, mistakes he made, I don't know how you wouldn't feel like, stakes are always really high in any small thing you might do. I'm not trying to impose that on your narrative, but that would occur to me.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:29:41] Yes. Yeah. No, I think that definitely was there, right? Is don't abandon the family. For sure. For sure. Right? Like, we've been left. We are all gonna stick together, and we are gonna do whatever it takes to be together. Right? I think that was very real. I also did the sister. One of my sisters, I would say, is more rebellious in nature than I was. I would say I was more, like, clueless, right? Like, falling into crowds and kind of like, oh, this boy likes me. I'll kiss him. Like, I was more like, maybe fun loving or just kind of clueless. And I couldn't describe my sister's experience, but I do feel like in certain ways.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:25] Right.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:30:25] When you have siblings that are older than you and they're causing grief for your parent in a lot of ways, like, you try to get out of the way. Right. And you are like, I don't want to get in trouble like that. I don't want to get grounded. I don't want to get yelled at.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:43] And you don't want to add to the stress that's already existing for that parent.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:30:48] Yes. So in many ways, I think I ended up being quite independent.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:52] Yeah.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:30:54] And not like, independent like, I'm gonna do things on my own. Just, like, the energy is good. There's a lot of. There's conflict, and then there's other kids that are, like, testing boundaries. And so it's kind of like a lot of the energy in the room is being used somewhere else. So, like, don't ask for energy. I think that was the emotional message. I don't think anybody asked for me to not have needs, but I think that was just the reality.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:19] It totally makes sense.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:31:21] I could take care of myself, so I did in the ways I could.

John Dehlin [00:31:24] And that's also a middle child dynamic.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:31:26] Totally. Yes, very much so.

A Formative Spiritual Experience in Palmyra

John Dehlin [00:31:29] So talk about this formative experience you had in Palmyra, New York.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:31:33] Yes. So we had a bishop when I was a teenager, and I loved this bishop. He was very charismatic. He. Yeah, just a wonderful person. Really invested in the youth. He had two young children himself. He was like the CEO of a company. And he was like, we need to give these young people spiritual experiences. And so one of the things he wanted to do was help us go to the sites. And we're in St. Louis, so we're like, close, right? Like, we're close to Nauvoo. We're close to Independence, Missouri. And so we did, like, rent things and went all the way to Palmyra. And it was kind of, like, encouraged for us to have, you know, this experience of like, you know, finding out your own kind of testimony.

John Dehlin [00:32:22] Tell our never Mormons what significance Palmyra has.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:32:25] Yeah. So Palmyra is where Joseph Smith, I believe, was raised. And that's where he went into a sacred grove and had the first vision where he saw God the Father and Jesus Christ. And so it was kind of like, have your own sacred grove experience. And prior to that, I really had. I mean, I had switched friend groups a couple of times. Right. Because obviously I was not having sex in sixth grade. I was not interested in having sex in sixth grade. And so there were, like. I could see that some of my friends were, like, on a different path. Right. And so I had already switched friends quite a bit. But I do remember thinking, like, I could be popular, but if I do that, it's gonna be hard to keep the standards. But it's also gonna be hard to keep. Keep the standards if I don't really know if this is true. And so I really did look to that time to say, like, maybe this is my chance to figure out if this is really true for me. And so I will say, up until that point, it's probably important to know too. Like, my family, we're going to church every week. Even if we're on vacation, we're fasting, right. Like 24 hours. We have little after church dresses. So we have church dresses, and we have more casual dresses to wear afterwards so that we keep the Sabbath. We have family home evening. Every week. We are reading scriptures daily. We are praying daily. Like, in terms of all the things, like, my mom was killing it and. Yeah. And like, good on her. Right. Like, she really was doing all the things she could do as a mom to raise five children by herself and hoping that she gave them a really good chance. And I. Yeah, I mean, on some level, all of her kids have turned out really well, you know,

Margi Dehlin [00:34:12] so we

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:34:14] did have a moment where we were able to go off into the grove. And I remember reading the scriptures, and I'm guessing. I'm guessing it's was the dnc, because it was the story of. Well, is that where he. That first vision account is? Is it in the dnc?

John Dehlin [00:34:31] It's in the Pearl of Great Price.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:34:32] Maybe it's in the Pearl of Great Price. Yeah, one of those. And I read it. Yeah. So I did go and I read that, and I had, like, a very strong spiritual experience where, as I read the passage where he says, they call me by name, and I, God and

John Dehlin [00:34:53] Jesus called Joseph by name.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:34:55] And I had, like, such a profound experience that, like, if they know his name, they know mine. And in that moment, for me, it was like, I can give up popularity. I can give up anything, right. If God knows me. And that felt really powerful for me and, like, my spiritual formation, right, that. Yeah, that if God really knows me and knows me by name, like, I can do anything for God. And I think that shows up quite a bit in my life, right? This feeling of, like, I can do hard Things. Right. And so, yeah, that was kind of the formative experience. I don't know if you have more questions about that, but that's what it was.

John Dehlin [00:35:39] Yeah. And so that that meant to you. I mean, oftentimes Mormon youth or young adults have this experience that kind of seals them to church commitment. And it sounds like that was maybe one for you.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:35:51] Yes, Yes, I would say so. Yes. Yeah. I would say after that period of time, you know, I was one of those youth that would, like, stand up and bear your testimony. Went to seminary, early morning seminary. No problem getting up, going and doing that. Yeah, all the things.

John Dehlin [00:36:10] Anything else super important about your high school years before we go to your BYU years? Your relationship with your dad by the end of your high school? Is that even worth mentioning?

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:36:23] No, I think the relationship was pretty. I mean, it was there, but it's.

John Dehlin [00:36:28] Did he get rebaptized?

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:36:30] He did. He did get rebaptized, actually. He did get rebaptized and then he went to some. I think he tried. Yeah. If my recollection is correct, he came back. He was a Sunday school teacher. Sometimes he plays the organ. He's very good piano and organ player. My grandpa played the organ. He. I think the other thing. I don't know when this occurred, so I could be wrong. It might have happened later than high school, but my dad had come back and he was paying tithing. His wife is some denomination of Christian, I want to say, like Methodist or Presbyterian, I don't know. So she didn't join the church or anything. And she tried to be supportive, I think of him, but he had paid tithing. Right. And that's a lot. I mean, you're a doctor, it's a lot of money from your household, and you're also paying child support. And I think he tried to get his, like, temple blessings reinstated, and he was denied. And I think she said, no, we're not giving any more money to that church. Because I think for her, that didn't make any sense. Right. Like that you're going, you're committed, you're doing all the things, you're giving all this money, and then they're telling you no. I don't think she had any concept for that, which I don't blame her. Like, yeah, like, at what point? What do you have to do to get in? Right. So then I think at that point he. I don't think he. I don't know if he kept. I don't get the impression that he attends a lot. I think that created some strain in the marriage. And I think he responded however he needed to for his marriage, is my understanding.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:04] I was gonna ask you really quickly when you were kind of talking about the Palmyra moment, you know, this idea of your moment with the heavenly father who knows your name. Yeah. Like, do you feel at all, like, the idea of heavenly father relationship with a heavenly father who knows you, who's constant, who. That. That served as a balm, maybe, in the loss of your earthly father? Like, was there an aspect of that that, like, was able to kind of fill this maybe yearning of being known by a father figure or. How would you describe that? Because I noticed you got quite emotional with it, so.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:38:50] Yeah, I think that's a great question.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:52] Yeah.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:38:53] I think in a lot of ways, I did look to, like, having a heavenly father as a way of, like. Yeah. Having some sort of, like, father daughter relationship where. Yeah. There's, like, a father that, like, can be there for me, can listen to me.

John Dehlin [00:39:16] Always.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:39:17] Yeah, always. And. And I don't know that my dad didn't want to be that, but.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:24] Yeah.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:39:24] But it also didn't happen that way. Right. Like, whatever. Whether. I mean, he may say, your mom kept me from you. Right. Like, there might be a lot of ways to interpret that, but the result was that I didn't have an active. I definitely did not have an emotionally connected relationship with my father. And so I do think that's really probably part of it. Yeah.

Choosing BYU and Early College Years

John Dehlin [00:39:49] All right, well, so every Mormon kid who's faithful, who grows up outside of Utah has desires to consider byu, right?

Margi Dehlin [00:39:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:01] Did you have BYU dreams?

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:40:05] Yeah. I don't. It's hard to know at what point I decided that BYU was it. Right. I mean, probably. Obviously, that experience probably formed that. Yeah. My. Both of my older siblings went to byu. Utah. I did have some interesting. I remember that at some point, maybe earlier on, one of me and my sisters wanted to go to. I don't know, we got in our heads out, like, we wanted to go to North Carolina, Chapel Hill. So that was something that was interesting to us. But I. But I think also, like, my family was like, we don't have money. We got five kids to put through college, and that's out of state, so. Yeah. And it's out of state.

John Dehlin [00:40:40] What'd you end up doing?

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:40:41] So in high school, I knew that I loved history. I took an AP history class my junior year and fell in love with history. But I was like, nobody wants to be a history teacher because that doesn't make a lot of money. And I was like, but what if I could get into politics and I could make history? So I was really excited about that. Before Hamilton was a thing, I was very into Alexander Hamilton in my junior year.

John Dehlin [00:41:04] Really? Why Alexander Hamilton?

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:41:07] Cause he's the goat. I mean, he's a federalist. I wish I had a better memory of things, but I. Yeah, I mean, in some ways, I was a weird kid. I read a. Actually, I don't. This might have been more. In college when I was reading my journals, I saw. I was, like, writing in my journal about reading the Teddy Roosevelt biography. So there's some interesting, like, history books that I read. Yeah, I just think he. He was really wise. So I did know I wanted to do poli sci going into college, and I ended up. I did end up going to byu, getting in there. And I majored in poli sci and. And stuck with that. Okay. And I did end up. Oh, I don't know if I had this in my outline. So at the end of my freshman year, I ended up going on a study abroad. And I went to Ukraine, which is really.

John Dehlin [00:42:00] Whoa.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:42:00] Yeah. Which is really weird. But I had thought, like, there were, you know, there were different ones. And there was, like, one in France, and I was like, yeah, but if I go to France, it's probably gonna just be like a tourist. Like, it probably won't feel that different. And then there was one for Ukraine that was a lot cheaper. And I was like, that's an experience. Cause that, like, at the time, that was like, kind of a third world country. And I was like, well, maybe I should do that. And it was on religious freedom, actually, because. Right. With the communist wall falling now, there's, like, a lot of new religions going there. And they're like, how do we cultivate religious freedom from no God to all these churches coming in? And so it was a cool experience. It was. I mean. But yeah, I mean, I was 19 and I left, you know, for six weeks to a country. I didn't know the language. How many years that it was. It would have been 2003. We visited Chernobyl. I don't know if you've watched that series.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:52] I loved it.

John Dehlin [00:42:53] That's one of the best top 10 shows in all of television. Chernobyl. Check it out.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:42:58] Yes, it is an excellent show. Highly recommend. So me and my husband are watching that a few years ago. And at the end, it's like, this was successfully contained in, like, 2016. And I was like, we went and visited. Like, you don't go in the actual plant, but outside and this is the byu. The BYU Study Abroad just took us there. But we went through the classrooms, like, all those classrooms with the little toys and everything. The Ferris wheel that's outside. We walked there, and I'm watching the show, and I. And I have an autoimmune disease. And now sometimes I'm, like, wondering, like, could.

John Dehlin [00:43:34] Oh, so you went there with BYU before the radiation was fully contained? Yes, yes.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:43:40] Like, a decade for date, potentially. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember they told us to bring clothes we could throw away. Like, again, I'm 19. I don't get this thing.

John Dehlin [00:43:49] We.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:43:49] We brought clothes and shoes we could throw away. I kid you not. We got on this, like, scale that had, like, these, like. It was like bars of lights, and it, like, lit up and down and, like, was gonna tell you how much radiation you had. And even. Even as I'm doing this.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:02] Danger.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:44:03] Yeah, danger. And I, like. I'm, like, looking at it, and we're all like, oh, yeah, like, we believe this. But I was also like, I. I don't. I just had no clue about radiation, and who knows if that's why? But sometimes I'm like, oh, my gosh, I went to Chernobyl. So that's just a side note, but kind of a funny story. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:22] I mean, it does say something about you that you weren't like. And no harm for, like, the ones who wanted to go to Paris or, like, the Shakespeare thing in England or even Jerusalem center. Like that. The fact that you chose Ukraine as your study abroad says something about kind of where your heart was or your values were at the time.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:44:41] Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. Maybe that theme of, like, being a little different, like, open to a different adventure.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:47] Right. Yeah.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:44:48] An unusual adventure, but it. Everybody else that was on it had served a mission in Ukraine or Russia. I was the only one, so I was definitely the youngest.

John Dehlin [00:44:59] Did you do Washington seminar?

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:45:00] I did, yeah. I did Washington seminar and worked for Congress.

John Dehlin [00:45:04] Okay, me too. Yeah.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:45:05] Yeah. I thought I would stay. So that was another formative experience, I would say, at byu. I did. I actually planned it so that I would be in D.C. at the end and network to get a job. And, man, as an intern, I was bored out of my mind.

John Dehlin [00:45:19] Were those Bush years?

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:45:21] No, May. It was 2005.

John Dehlin [00:45:25] Yeah. That was Bush.

Margi Dehlin [00:45:26] Yeah.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:45:26] So maybe it was. Yeah. I just worked as an intern for a subcommittee, so they changed the name of the subcommittee, but it was like Regulatory Affairs. And I remember having to do some things about the flat tax. I don't know if you remember that being A big deal. They wanted to do a flat tax. And yeah, I had to do some research on things, edit hearing transcripts. And so I was fully bored. And I was like, oh, no, what am I gonna do? This is a really boring job.

John Dehlin [00:45:53] And this is all gonna be pre law to then maybe become a public politician.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:45:59] Yeah, maybe with the thought. Well, that's what I realized. I was like, well, maybe this is not the path. Because to be a staffer. And also, like, looking at the staffers, the staffers were either nepo babies or they were introverts big time. And I was like, this is not the path to being a politician and being like, in the decisions. This is not the path for that. And I realized I need to do something more social. So then I actually thought, I'm gonna get an mba. So I actually thought I would go into business. I was like, I need to be with people. I can't just be at a computer.

John Dehlin [00:46:30] You wanna be in the room where it happens.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:46:32] Yes, exactly. I do wanna be in the room where it happens. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:36] I can't do an episode without a Broadway reference.

BYU Culture, Dating, and Identity

Margi Dehlin [00:46:38] So I'm curious about your experience culturally, when you went to byu.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:46:45] Oh, I'm so glad you asked. I'm so glad you asked because I definitely want to talk about this. So right when you grow up. And especially like. Right. Because I didn't date.

John Dehlin [00:46:54] So wait, explain that.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:46:56] I didn't date and. Sorry. I didn't date in high school. Sorry.

John Dehlin [00:46:58] Oh, okay.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:46:59] I didn't really get to date in high school like I would have wanted. So then you're going to byu and the. I will say I had such a strong ward growing up where it really did feel like all the adults are invested in all the youth. Like just a really good quality community. And so they're so excited for you and they think the world of you. And they're like, you're gonna go and you're gonna have such a great time. And they'll say things like, you're gonna get snatched right up. You're gonna have so much fun dating. And so there is this, like, kind of idea of like. Like you're a wonderful person and therefore you will get married quickly. Right. That. That's what that means. And having never dated, obviously, I'm super eager. And it sounds like you just date and get married. And one of my sisters did get married at 19. Like, she went, and by February, she was engaged. By April, she was married right of her first year. Wow. Yeah. And I was close to that sister. So then when I got to pyu. I was like, super excited. I was gonna be in Heritage Halls, which is the apartment. So a lot of times you get paired with other boys in Heritage Halls, which means usually they're a little bit more responsible, a little more mature. Cause they're making their own meals. And so I was so excited to meet the Heritage boys, right? Like, I was like, I'm gonna get the cream of the crop or whatever. And we got paired with DT boys. And DT boys were the boys that were only admitted to BYU because they came in the summer. So they kind of like had some sort of offer. Like, if you start in the summer, then you can come. That's who these DT boys were. Now, I don't know if all the boys in DT were this, but that was a lot of who I met. And these boys had lightsaber fights. They were playing video games. I mean, they were like kids. And they were nice. They were an FHE group. And it's not like I didn't like them as people, but that was not who I wanted to date, right? Like, I. In my mind, I'm ready to get married, right? I'm ready to date. I'm ready to get married. And like, these boys are having lightsaber fights. And this is like pre Star wars being cool for everybody. You know what I mean? So it was like. It was not. It was surprising.

John Dehlin [00:49:11] First of all, Star wars was always cool for everybody. As someone who saw the original films, but also you were misled because we all know helam and halls is world the cool people. That.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:49:23] That might be true.

John Dehlin [00:49:23] Is that true, Margi? Is that true he halls? Is that where the cool people.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:27] I see what you're doing here.

John Dehlin [00:49:28] Okay. Anyway, sorry.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:49:30] You might be right. One of my sisters did live in Helman Halls. I don't know. There could have been some fear around that because she, like, there was. I will say this is kind of a sidetrack.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:40] It's a yes.

John Dehlin [00:49:41] And John, there were silly boys that be at heal.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:49:46] She had a. She had a. She had a great time. But I will say there was probably my first awareness of weight was when she had put on some weight when she first went to college. And that was my first awareness that, like, it's shameful to gain weight. So I don't know if me and my other sister chose not to go there in some ways because it was like you eat the cafeteria food and you have no control over your body, which this. We will also get to bodies at

John Dehlin [00:50:10] BYUVC, we call that the freshman 15?

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:50:13] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:13] Yeah, the freshman 15.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:50:15] So that was one thing that was really disappointing. And in some of my classes, I did meet some guys at Heritage Halls, and they were the kind of guys I wanted to date. I was like, I met a guy named Chad, which. Chad is kind of a funny name now, but I. But I do remember I was like, this guy, like, he's into poli sci. Like, he was getting good grades. He wasn't failing out of class like the kids in our ward. So, I mean, there were boys, but they were not. They were not, like, in our social circles as much. So I was like, that's the experience I wanted to. I think, in a lot of ways, you think you're gonna go find your people, right? And that, like, I've been. I've never fully understood in kind of the world. And you're kind of sold. You're gonna go to byu, you're gonna go to, like, the Mecca, and you're gonna date and you're gonna have fun and you're being understood, and then you find out that you don't fit in there either. I think the dating wasn't as much as I had anticipated. And again, I mean, part of that's like, I didn't wanna date necessarily some of the boys in our ward. But at that time, not just that year, but subsequent years, I really started to notice some patterns that were kind of disturbing to me. And I guess I should note I did have some disordered eating in high school, where I really started to control my food intake. I never met the criteria for an eating disorder. I never stopped eating. I never purged. But I was, like, counting calories, working out. And a lot of that was in response to my sister that had gained weight loss. She had lost some weight right before she went on a mission. And I remember her saying something. She's like, oh, I'm almost as thin as you. Or she's like, I think I'm as thin as you now. And there was something that, like, went off in my brain that was like, do not be the fat one. Which is interesting, because I had never really thought about weight before that point. But that was. There was a lot of perfectionism that happened for me, I would say, in high school and. And then I did kind of work my way a little bit out of that at the end of high school. And I would say I was definitely much healthier in college. I wouldn't say I was doing any, like, bad. Like. I don't know. I shouldn't say bad behaviors, but restrictive Behaviors necessarily. But I had two roommates at different times that were anorexic, and one of them had been my childhood friend. So we had been friends for quite a bit of time. And so I saw her become anorexic. And what was really fascinating to me was how disturbing it was to see that the two roommates I had that were blonde and anorexic were going on dates every single day and being asked to not go on missions, like, in such high demand in a way that I was like, what is this? Because I had other thin roommates that. And sometimes they were blonde, too, or they were thin and they had bruised brown hair, and nobody was desired like an anorexic blonde woman. And I even saw this later when I was in my master's program in Texas, how boys would be like, we can't date people on the board. And then a new anorexic blonde girl moved in. And I knew she was anorexic because she lived with one of my best friends. And she's like, she has some eating disorder stuff. And all of a sudden, the dating rules slipped away. And so. So I remember thinking at that time, like, I am not too fat. I remember thinking, like, I'm not skinny like I was. But, like, I knew what it took. It took. I was sick. And it was really disturbing to me that, like, men preferred a sick woman. And, like, they literally, like my friend that had become anorexic, they preferred her when she was sick as to when she wasn't. Right. And that was. And I don't. Part of me think some of that is the pressure on marriage, that if a girl has anorexia, she is emotionally suppressed. If you can't eat, you don't feel as much. So emotionally, that looks like avoidant and Mormon boys are very afraid of girls wanting marriage. So they are very paranoid that if they ask you out too close together, that you will think that they now need to propose to you. So I don't know. I don't know if it's kind of the indifference that an anorexic girl has because she's so controlling of everything that's going on for her that she kind of doesn't care. But it was very disturbing to me. And I was like, I don't want to have to be sick to be loved, you know? And so that, again, I think, was a hard moment for me in feeling like, I'm going to go here, I'm going to find people, find a partner. And then finding that, like, I am not what they want. Even though, like, we had looked at all those checklists and I've been developing my character to be a really good partner. And I have all these talents.

John Dehlin [00:55:02] Testimony.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:55:03] Yeah. I like, I'm smart, I can cook, I can do this, I can do that. Like, I have all these talents and. But I'm not blonde and I'm not anorexic, so probably not going to get asked out a lot. And so that was really weird. So a lot of things like that I would notice in the culture. And I'm like, this, this is fucked up. This is really fucked up.

John Dehlin [00:55:26] Thank you for sharing that. I'm sorry that happened. And do you mind if I add to it?

Margi Dehlin [00:55:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:30] If I channel my BYU brain. And we've talked about this in its inflection a million times on Mormon stories, that the path for so many Mormon young women is to study elementary education or maybe psychology, but. Or family studies. And it's all about prepping to become a mommy, a mom. Sorry. And you know, and then to have some sort of less driven by the world's standards backup plan for only if a husband dies. You know what I mean? And you have to have a job to support your kids. But like, if I'm in my BYU man's brain, a smart, sort of a confident woman who is into history, who's studying political science, who's going to Ukraine because she wants to, because she loves history and loves political science and is going to Washington seminar. That's not coding for me as what I would have been conditioned to consider as marriage material.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:56:44] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:56:44] And there might even have been like, I'm supposed to be the patriarch, I'm supposed to preside. I want. And by the way, none of this ends up fitting Margi, so I don't want to. You know what I mean? Like, Margi's an English major and so. And she's strong. So. But I'm just there, I am able to channel the. That type of conditioning that might have said, yeah, she's a little bit too confident, a little bit too brainy, a little bit too into history, a little bit too ambitious. How's that going to work in our home where I'm the priesthood leader and she's having babies. You know what I mean?

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:57:26] Yeah. No, I think that's a good point. And I don't know that I would have ever like, communicated. I don't know that I had thought I would do more than get a degree. Right. Like. Cause I did assume that I would get married and have kids, but I Knew I was certainly gonna finish my degree, and I did have interests. But I think you're right. I did get a lot of feedback, and I even got some feedback in high school about being really opinionated. People saying, I'm intimidating, that kind of thing. So. And I don't. I probably didn't get to know people. I mean, at byu, sometimes they're getting to know you, and they may be making those estimations, but they probably don't know you intimately enough. Enough to tell you, like, you're super intimidating. But yeah, yeah, I'm sure that that could have been a factor.

John Dehlin [00:58:13] Heather Gay had a very similar experience at byu where she wanted to be a businesswoman and be an entrepreneur, and she basically didn't date at byu, you know.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:58:22] Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's interesting, but it's confusing, right? Because as I went back and looked at journals and scrapbooks, I did see that, like, they were literally printed out templates of, like, attributes that you have attributes you should work on. And I was like, oh, those were given to us in high school.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:40] Yeah.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:58:40] I do remember, like, some of my friends telling me, like, you seem like you really want to get married. And I was like, well, yeah. And I do think that maybe I was more marriage hungry. And that may have come off in a certain way, because I did feel, like, mature. And I think part of that was, like, wanting to date, not wanting to just, like, mess around. You know what I mean? Like, I think I was serious about our relationship, and I think that probably came from, like, not like a Mormon.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:12] Be.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [00:59:12] Be a good Mormon, get married young. It came from, I think, an attachment place, which was like, I didn't have a dad. I, like, I would like to have, like, a healthy marriage. So I think it came from that. But I do think people probably did pick up on that. I mean, some of my friends were like, you seem more interested in marriage than you know me. So I think there was some of that, too. But I was, like, looking at those journals and looking at those checklists, and I thought, well, sure, like trauma mixed with checklists when you're a teenager, when you're literally kind of told to form your character to be a good partner by the time you're 16 versus, like, what do you want to sign up for next semester? Or where do you want to go to college? I'm like, yes, of course I was thinking about marriage. But it is confusing because those lists, right, they tell you to be the person you want to marry. But guess what? So I want to be smart. I Want to be successful. I'm ambitious, right. And it's like, well, be like that person, but don't step on a man's toes. Right? Like, kind of like what you're saying, don't step on a man's toes. But that's really hard because as a. As a good girl, you get the message to just literally be the best you can be. So be a good student. Be this. And if you're smart, then you're too smart. Right. You almost need to hide it. And so that's what I think I learned, is that, like, all of, like, Some of the, like, best things about me, like, some of my biggest strengths.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:43] Yes. Worse.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:00:45] Worse. Were, like, resented by Mormon men.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:48] Absolutely.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:00:49] There was no space for a woman. That's intellectual. And it's interesting now because in my current marriage, I connect so much intellectually with my husband. Like, it is, like, one of my favorite ways to connect with him. And I think it's probably one of his favorite ways to connect and

Margi Dehlin [01:01:09] that.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:01:10] Like, yeah. For so long, I got so much feedback that that was not lovable. And, um. And so that's so hard because, like, you can't change your brain. Not that much. You know what I mean? Like, you can't do that to make someone else comfortable. Like, it's. It's the way it works well.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:26] And, like, being able to see in yourself those things are, like, really valuable strengths that you had, like, just objectively and realizing, actually, especially if it's coded in any way, that there's something wrong with you, which I'm really interested in, in how this translated to you feeling valued. Like, if it changed. And we can get to that in a minute. But, like, I think that's part of reflecting and processing. Sometimes you were just in an environment that told you those things, like, through your experience, of course, of relationship, that those things weren't valuable, but they were awesome. Like, they were objectively amazing.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:02:07] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:07] Parts of you. And there's a bit of a process. Have you had that or kind of in reclaiming yourself and realizing. Oh, wait, yeah. Yeah.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:02:17] Yes. I do think that, like, in the latter half of my. Well, maybe going back to school, I think some of that's been really. When I went back for my PhD. I guess we'll get to that. I think that has really affirmed a lot of things for me. But I will say in my 30s, there really has been a process of, like, I am not gonna apologize for being smart anymore. I'm not gonna be apologize for being opinionated. I'm not Gonna apologize anymore.

John Dehlin [01:02:46] Yeah. And you said it way better than I was trying to. But, like, to summarize, it's like Mormon men sometimes are conditioned to want their women to be both physically anorexic and maybe intellectually anorexic.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:02:58] That's interesting.

Margi Dehlin [01:03:00] And emotionally, I think, oftentimes as well.

John Dehlin [01:03:03] Yeah, yeah. Cause you're trying. The overriding message here is get in the box, Rebecca. Get in the box. Stay in the box. Get in the box.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:03:13] Yeah. Yeah. And I think one thing that was really, maybe protective about it is I did grow up in an area where there was a lot of diversity. There's a huge Jewish population where I grew up. And so I think in a lot of ways, I had seen people of all, like, ethnicities in my school as, like, being attractive. Right. Like, that wasn't weird. Like, there were lots of attractive black people in my school, some different ethnicities, and then people, like, it was not as common to have blue eyes and blond hair where I grew up. And also in my community, I would say. And you see this in different communities, like, in D.C. what you do is who you are. Right. It's not necessarily the way you look. It's who do you work for? Right. And in St. Louis, it was also a little bit that way, where kids. Like, there were the theater kids, and there were these kids. And so there was a lot of both in the church. And I would say outside the church, people were valued for different things. But then when I went to Utah, it's like, you're valued for one thing. And so. So there was this, like, as I kept getting this feedback in the environment, even though I think it hurt, it felt like rejection, but it didn't feel like I thought I was bad. Like, kind of. Like I said, I have thoughts. I'm like, I am not too fat. I am not unattractive. Like, there is nothing so wrong with me that would explain this.

John Dehlin [01:04:53] Right.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:04:54] So I had a pretty firm understanding that I had a lot to offer. But it was so puzzling, like, to me, like, because I. I think the biggest problem was that I was sold that Mormon men were the best men. And I think that was part of the problem, is that I was trying to get a good man. And I could not understand how. I firmly knew I was a good woman. But why do good men not want a good woman? I was told that I become the best version of myself I can be, that a good man would love me. Me. But why isn't that panning out?

Margi Dehlin [01:05:26] So that's a bit of Deconstruction, honestly, you're doing right there.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:05:31] Yeah, that's a great point.

John Dehlin [01:05:32] Yeah. And I just think the. There's good and bad and, you know, in all different approaches to life and. And it's often said that religion works until it doesn't, you know, And I'm sure there are people for whom these boxes fit very well, and we want to be affirming of that. There are Instagram influencers who are like, I'm a Mormon, mom, and I love it, and stop telling me I'm oppressed. And, yes, that is totally valid. And there's going to be people for whom those boxes just don't end up working. And it sounds like it wasn't. You were trying to figure out why things weren't working at byu, and I imagine that the reasons why you chose to go on a mission and then also what you experienced in mission leadership just exacerbates maybe some of these feelings. Is that right?

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:06:24] Yeah, I've got some. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:26] Should we go there?

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:06:27] Let's move to the mission. Yeah.

Serving a Mission and Its Aftermath

John Dehlin [01:06:29] Because you went before women were really encouraged to go, correct?

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:06:34] Yes. Yes, it was before then. So I actually had no intention to go on a mission. I had an intention that I was, like, gonna go do the Washington seminar, write things I had found. Anybody didn't think I was necessarily. I mean, I date. I did end, have some serious, semi serious relationships that didn't pan out at byu, But I think I knew by the time I was, like, scheduling Washington seminar, that I thought, well, I'll go to D.C. there's a pretty good Mormon scene there. And I was like, maybe I'll find my people there. Right. Because these people are ambitious. They're into it, too. Like, those are maybe gonna be my people. Right.

John Dehlin [01:07:12] So Colonial Ward. Is that what it was?

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:07:14] Yeah. Oh, I can't remember. But there. Yeah. But, yeah, we were staying at the place they have there in Georgetown. So, anyway, I loved Washington. D.C. is a great city. I loved it. I run by the Vietnam Memorial in the morning. Oh, gosh. It was absolutely. It was so great. And while I was there, I was gonna apply. I told you that things shifted for me, and I was like, I'm gonna apply to business school. And so I had kind of reached out to the MBA school at BYU to find out, like, what do I need to do? They're like, you need. And I was like, okay, basically, I could go in a year and a half. And then that year and a half time, and they're like. They did say something like a mission could count for work experience. And I thought, like, okay, maybe I'll find a job. But something about them saying year and a half and I. All the girls. There were a lot of girls with us there at the Washington seminar and they were going on missions and some of them were deciding like, they wanted to go, but they weren't sure. And I was like, what the hell? Like, if you, if you want to go, go. If you don't want to go, don't go. I just remember, like, having that kind of attitude, like, this doesn't have to be rocket science, like, do you want to go? Do you not want to go? But when that 18 month time period, like, something about that something clicked and it was like, would you want to go on a mission? And I was like, I don't know. And so I like, prayed about it and then I got the prompting that, like, this has been so meaningful for you, why wouldn't you want to share? Share it, right? And I was like, yeah, this is everything to me. I'm gonna go share it. So. So all these girls were like, talking about their missions, getting ready. I literally, like. And this is, this is like how I operate is I decide something and like, I make it happen. And by February, I was leaving for my mission and some of these people hadn't even turned in their papers. And like, I'm making the decision, getting all the doctor's appointments and like, I am, I am off. And. And I got called to Russia. And. And so I felt really excited about that. And so I was actually 22. I was actually a little bit older. And so that was an interesting experience to be a college graduate as a missionary.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:19] Yeah.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:09:20] And I do remember, like, feeling more connected to my teachers in the MTC than the young men because they're like 19. And I do remember some of them saying, like, Rebecca, you have to remember, like, you. You've finished college. And we're talking like, I didn't have a 4.0 in college, but, like, I only got a couple Bs. So, like, you're talking about somebody with a really, really high GPA at BYU now learning a second language with 19 year olds. Right. So in a lot of ways I had a lot of great life skills. So the mission was a great adventure for me because I had the maturity. I'd been away from my parents, I had a.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:58] Traveled.

John Dehlin [01:09:59] Yeah.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:10:00] And I traveled to Ukraine. Yeah. So I'd been exposed to the culture on some level. It's very similar. And I was in Rostov, which is southern. It borders Ukraine, Right. So Rostov, that mission is Sochi's. In that mission. I didn't serve in Sochi, but that's where the Olympics were. So it's in that. That kind of region. And so I went on my mission. There's a lot of things I loved about my mission. My mission president, I really adored my mission president. He was really great. And there was one time he's like, if we could call women to be district leaders, I would have you be a leader. But that was also hard, right. Because I was more mature. I probably had more skills than a lot of the people that are over me. I feel like I got along pretty well with a lot of the elders, though. Like, we joke around. Like, I feel like I had a pretty good time. There was one. There's one story from a mission that I did want to. Because I thought, again, this can be some of the frustration, I think, of being a woman in the church. There was. We had a church member who was a beautiful young woman, probably in her 20s, and her mom became interested, and so she should have been an investigator that came to the sisters. But somehow the elders were seeing her, and we're like, well, why are you guys seeing her? And then it became obvious that one of the missionaries. Missionaries liked her. He was not American. He was Ukrainian. And I was like, this is like, he's doing this to get to her. He leaves the mission. Like, I had actually. Hold on. Let me back up. I had voiced concern, right, that they were. That this was inappropriate to the mission president. Obviously, it's, like, not mine to handle. But nothing changes in terms of their. They continue to give lessons to the mom, and the daughter has to be present, right? Because. Because you have to have so many people there or whatever. He ends up leaving the mission and coming back and marrying her.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:59] Oh.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:12:00] So he quits his mission early, comes back, marries her. By the time my mission is over, he's divorced her because he was super depressed. And I think he fell in love with her on the mission. I think that was what he thought was gonna make him better, was to get married to her. But in reality, I think his depression. It was like a band aid on his depression. And I think it destroyed the marriage, too. I don't know enough details, but, like, it made me really sad because I'd been friends with her, and then. Right. She's no longer going to church afterwards. And so there were things like that that would happen on the mission that would be frustrating where, like, you see it and you voice it and you Say something to priesthood leaders and it kind of feels like you get like poo pooed. Right? Like, no, don't worry about this. And then I'm like, But now look what happened.

Margi Dehlin [01:12:44] She was valid. Yeah, yeah.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:12:45] Now she has the trauma of a divorce and now she's no longer active.

Margi Dehlin [01:12:48] Right.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:12:49] So there were things like that sometimes that would happen on the mission. But I think the mission was a very big deconstruction place because until that point, I didn't know what happened on missions. And oh, I forgot to mention this. I had not wanted to go on a mission because I heard how shitty Mormon men talk about returned missionaries. And I thought, why the hell would I go sacrifice a year and a half of my life to preach the gospel so you can treat me like I'm garbage? Because, like, I'm. I did. I had to go on a mission because I didn't get snatched up. So I actually had not wanted to go on a mission because I felt like women got treated like it was like a ding on them. Yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [01:13:26] True. The perception was you go on a mission if you're a woman, you know, Pre Thomas Monson, and if you couldn't find a spouse by the time you're a junior or senior at BYU and you want to kind of draw out the clock, then you go on a mission.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:13:40] Yes. Yeah. You're like labeled undesirable.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:43] That's right. You weren't chosen.

John Dehlin [01:13:44] So it's a ding instead of like an ass. It's a liability.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:13:47] Yeah. So I forgot to mention that earlier that that was also one of the reasons when I was at BYU where I was like, that didn't. Being at BYU did not make me want to go on a mission because I saw the way people talked about return missionaries that were women. And I was like, why would I ever want to do that? Like, I wasn't interested. And I'm definitely not interested now. But anyway, so then I did serve the mission. Now I lost my train of thought.

John Dehlin [01:14:07] But you're saying also you saw how the mission was.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:14:10] Oh, okay. Yes. This is what it is.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:11] So

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:14:14] as a missionary, right. Before you're a missionary, there's all these things that like, boys will tell you as a district leader, a zone leader, as an ap, whatever, and you're like, oh, that's like, that's like something. Right? That means that you have mission president

John Dehlin [01:14:28] approved approval at his assistant to the president.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:14:30] Yes, yes.

John Dehlin [01:14:31] Very elite missionary.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:14:33] It's the top position. There's only two. And they're basically like the little Advisors to the mission president. And we did have one that actually ended up being like a third cousin. And he was of mine that I found out later. But he was wonderful, like a heart of gold, wonderful person. And the other one was like an asshole. And. And I remember thinking, he's almost like treating this like sales, very dehumanizing. And I thought, oh, okay, got it. So if you have leadership, you actually could be one of the best. Or you could actually be like counterfeit. Right. Like, you actually are not here for the right reasons and you are actually not a safe person. And so to me, that. That was really eye opening for me to see as a woman to say, like, oh, I should not. I need to discern past labels or past endorsements. So that was a big eye opener on the mission where I was like, do not buy the labels. They are not always accurate. So it was kind of like seeing behind the curtain. So that really changed, I think, a little bit, the way I dated and looked at Mormon men because I was interacting with so many of them. So that was, I think, a big part in expanding beyond kind of what the church sells you of. Look for this checklist. It was like, look beyond the checklist.

John Dehlin [01:15:58] And that is a real challenge to Mormon culture. Even on Mormon stories, it's like, he's a former bishop. She was a former relief study president. Oh, they were a mission president. Like, we're so title and status conscious in the church.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:16:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:16:10] So that is a major deconstruction.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:16:13] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:16:14] Okay. So what'd you take away from your mission? Or was there a story you wanted to tell other than the one you already told? Just about. Was your testimony stronger, weaker by the end of your mission? Was it a good experience, a bad experience? Were you traumatized? Did you love it?

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:16:31] I loved my mission. I did. I do remember midway talking to my mom, and that was the first time I was like, oh, my gosh, I've been gone for a long time and there's a long time. And so I do remember in the midway point, kind of feeling. Feeling really missing my family. But beyond that, for the most part, it was really positive.

John Dehlin [01:16:52] Did you have a sense for tension between Russia and Ukraine at that point or not? Had that not really emerged yet?

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:16:57] No, no, that's all Putin. No. Ukrainians and Russians intermarry all the time. Granted. I was in Rostov, which is right on the border. So to me, that war. Well, what one? We actually studied the future of Ukraine. When I went to Ukraine, and it was like, what's gonna Happen to Ukraine? Will they join the eu? Will they join Russia? Will they join Turkey? And we really talked about how Ukraine has a history of gaining independence and being taken over. And the thing that's really sad to me is it would be like us taking over Canada and saying, Canada's really bad. And you're like. A lot of us would say, what the hell are you talking about? I know Canadians. None of them have it out for us. They're not terrorists against us. That's exactly what it's like for. For them. They share culture in a lot of ways. Most of Ukrainians speak Russian. Some of them are Russian nationals. So technically they're of Russian descent, not Ukrainian descent. So the conflict, it's heartbreaking to me because I think the control is so strong that people can't speak out about it. But I really highly doubt anybody's for it unless they're buying the propaganda. There's no. There's just. It would be so unbelievable because they're

John Dehlin [01:18:12] just, again, that Ukraine's done something to deserve Russia's offensive.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:18:18] Yes. And, I mean, I'm not familiar enough with, like, special interest groups there at this point, that there couldn't be some sort of, like, I don't know, like, gang slash terrorist little group. But as a whole. The whole country. No, no, I don't think anybody would buy that.

John Dehlin [01:18:35] Russia's Canada, basically.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:18:37] And I think one of the things that really is heartbreaking for me is at least when I was there, all Russians served. One Russian male served one year in the army. And to me, the thing that's so sad about that war is Russians are dying too. So, like, it's awful what they're doing to Ukrainian. But, like, this is the motherland, Russia, and you're sending our sons to die killing our relatives, our cousins. Right. So to me, Russians are unnecessarily dying. So it almost feels like a betrayal of the Russian people in my mind, that we would sacrifice them for such a superficial war. Right. That's unnecessary.

John Dehlin [01:19:15] Hundreds of thousands of Russian deaths. I'm pretty sure.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:19:17] Yes. Yes. Yeah. So I. Yeah, it's awful to me.

John Dehlin [01:19:22] But you saw none of that while you were there.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:19:24] No, no, because I was there in. I got back at, like, I think, 2006.

John Dehlin [01:19:30] Okay.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:19:31] Yeah. So I didn't see any of that. So everything was fine. Yeah, it was peaceful. I think that coming home from my mission is an important part, but the mission was a great experience. When I came home, I obviously was gonna have to find a job. I'd already graduated, so I didn't come home straight to anything. And I was looking for. So I came home to St. Louis, and I was looking for a job in various places. I was looking at D.C. i was looking at Boston. I did look at some jobs in St. Louis, but I was thinking I was gonna move East Coast. And what I noticed was, on the mission, the scriptures become so alive for you, because it is. Everything is about eternal salvation. So, like, everything in the scriptures becomes relevant. And so for me, that was like this, like, aha. Like, total fulfillment, total purpose. And then you come home. And for me, I'd read the scriptures, and it would be, like, depressing because it was like, I am looking for a job. I'm not saving people's eternal lives. For me, it really felt. I relate it to being, like, military, where everything's life and death. You're defending your country, you're defending freedom, and then you come home and it's

John Dehlin [01:20:47] like, get a job flipping burgers.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:20:50] So you're saving souls as a missionary, and then you're in the secular world trying to schlep a job.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:20:56] Yes. And that level of purpose, unity in that group. Right. When you're abroad, I mean, veterans talk about it all the time. Right. Like, the brotherhood, that level of connection and purpose is really rare. And it doesn't. It's not the same in, like, civilian life. And so I felt. But it was weird because, again, it felt like kind of like depression, but not exactly. And I wrote an article to the Ensign about it, and I kind of. I'd read something in Moses where he was like, I wish I could remember Scripture now, but I don't read scriptures very much anymore. But it was like, something about, like, I don't know, the will of God, but, like, essentially, like, I trust him. Right. And so I wrote an article about that. Like, this has been hard. This has been really hard. And I don't know what's going to happen, but I'm going to trust God. And so it wasn't like, I got through this. It was like, coming home from the mission is actually harder than people say it is. They didn't publish it, which is fine. They don't have to publish it. And then, like, five years later, guess what? They're publishing it. Somebody else's story. Not my story. Someone else's story. Interesting, right? Probably because more and more people are getting depressed.

Meeting Her Future Husband After the Mission

Margi Dehlin [01:22:06] Like, too soon.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:22:07] Yes. So there's a lot of things like that, for me, that feel like a. Like a too soon. Like, oh, don't. Like, we don't want to deal with that until it's a pervasive problem. You know, maybe like the garments, like, now they're changing them. But how many women have suffered yeast infections and problems for years?

John Dehlin [01:22:24] But they make the change after the tipping point, when the damage is going to be. The cost is going to be too high to not change or the damage will be, you know, too great. Yeah, there's not enough suffering.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:22:35] Yeah, there's not enough suffering. We don't have to own this yet. We don't have. We don't have to name it yet. Right.

John Dehlin [01:22:40] This is probably human, normal stuff. I mean, I don't know. But you expect more when they're saying God's at the moment.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:22:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:22:49] So what'd you do? Did you find a job?

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:22:52] Oh, well, okay. So this leads to me. Leads me to dating gay men.

John Dehlin [01:22:56] Okay.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:22:57] So when I left on my mission, I gathered emails, right? To send the mass emails of, like, what I'm doing on my mission. And one of my roommates, she worked for byu. So I just. I just pulled her name off the roster because I hadn't gotten it. And I was like, oh, I'll just look it up and I'll add her. Well, it turns out I added a mother who worked at BYU who happened to be the mother of a young man who was getting his master's in St. Louis in occupational therapy. And so some way, I was already in Russia when I got an email. And she's like, I have to tell you. So she's a BYU employee. She's like, I have to tell you something. I think I've accidentally gone on your mission email list, but I love reading your letters. They're so entertaining. I hope it's okay that I've been reading these. She's like, but I think you accidentally added me. And, you know, this is my name. And then I saw, oh, my gosh, it's the exact same name as my roommate. That's how I added this person. And she's like, but it's ironic. She's like, because I have a son getting a master's in St. Louis, where you're from. And she's like, maybe at some point you guys could connect later on. And so then when I did get home, I did end up meeting him, and he. Again, he's in graduate school. He very accomplished person, very nice. And we kind of hit it off.

John Dehlin [01:24:16] Returned missionary.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:24:18] Yeah, he's a returned missionary. I can't remember where he served his mission. Very musically talented. We would, like, play duets on the Piano. But we dated. And so, yeah, he was really cool. And I think it felt like it was, like, serendipitous. Like, how did I accidentally email your mom? And you just happened to be going. You're like, I think he's from Utah. You just happened to be going to grad school in St. Louis when I'm getting home from admission. So it felt very serendipitous, like, you know, like you would write a movie or something. And so we dated for probably about four months. And I think at that point is when I started to feel like I think I really love this guy and

Margi Dehlin [01:24:57] could

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:25:00] maybe marry him. And I think we did say I love you. And I think one of the things that's really interesting about. There's a couple things that were interesting about the relationship. Our very first date, he asked me what I thought about if someone was bisexual. And I thought, well, what about it? That's, like, my answer. I was like, what about it? And he's like, well, what about a bisexual person getting married? And I was like, well, if they're getting married and they're choosing to be with a person, I don't know that it really matters. Like, if the goal is to, you know, be loyal to one person, you just gotta choose which person it is. Like, to me, it doesn't matter if you're. You're. You also find other men or women attractive. It's like your loyalty. And I did not. I don't know, maybe that was me being naive. I did not want for one second think that that was him telling me he's bisexual. It felt like, again, I'm. I can be very intellectual. And again, my thing is like, oh, this guy is talking about, like, thinking about interesting things, right? Like, thinking outside the box. And I think maybe that was how it was for him too. Like, he's struggling with his sexuality, and this. This girl is like. Has room for it. Like, isn't scared of it, isn't right, you know, rigid around it. Well, at some point, he did come out to me and he said he was bisexual, but. And so I ended up having a lot of questions for him about, you know, what does that mean? Right? And, you know, at first, I didn't really know what to do with the information. Obviously, that earlier interaction then became more clear, right? Oh, what is that? But as we talked more, I realized I don't think he was going to therapy, but I was thinking. I don't. I remember feeling like I loved him. I think he definitely was very clear that I was A woman that he felt attracted to in multiple facets, like intellectually, physically, spiritually, all those things. And he had usually not been able to find that. But at the same time, it felt like, are you really bi? How do you know that? In the context of our relationship of maybe wanting to make this work. And we did end up. We didn't end up breaking up. We, like, broke up and got back together and then broke up. Because I think it was kind of shocking at first. And we're like. But I. So we did get back together. I don't feel like it was for very long. It might have been a week or two. And then decided like, yeah, this. I think you need to figure out what this means for you. But I didn't feel like I could tell anyone what was going on because I felt like they would be spooked. I did go to my leaders, and they kind of treated it like, you know, it's just like any. I don't know, they might even use the word addiction. Right? Like, you just gotta manage it or do choose the right.

John Dehlin [01:27:53] We all have our cross to bear.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:27:55] Yes. I ended up being referred to, I think, like a bishop or some leader who also was gay in a straight marriage. And he kind of shared about his experience a little bit. And I remember thinking, I have to think about how this is going to work for me because I have a lot of trauma around infidelity, and am I the right person? I remember thinking about it this way. Am I the right person to support him in this? Or am I going to be paranoid and living in fear because of my trauma? And I don't know that I can. I don't know that that won't make it worse. Right. Or that his. Him being bisexual would make my anxiety worse about him cheat. Like possibly cheating. Right. So it felt. I think ultimately it felt like a mismatch in terms of if that. If he really is bi and he's choosing to be in a hetero marriage, that still could be difficult. And I just was like, I don't think I'm. I don't think I'm one. But I didn't. I remember feeling like when I broke up for a time and I didn't want to tell my parents. I remember my parents being really anxious. I think they thought it was like, porn or something. And I was like. I just felt like nobody would understand, and I wanted to make the decision on my own. And maybe I knew kind of what I was gonna make. But I do remember feeling like I. It has to Be mine. Right. Like, it has to be my decision. And so. But in that process, there were things I looked back on, and I was like, yeah, it was weird. Kind of like how he wouldn't spend money on me. It sounds really stupid, but I was like, we never even went to, like, Olive Garden. Like, he couldn't even take me to, like, a $15 dinner. Like, we'd cook at the house. And I knew he was a poor graduate student, but there was something that did feel off sometimes. Like, he's so cheap. And then I was like, well, yeah, because he did. He didn't desire me sexually.

John Dehlin [01:29:49] Okay, but you said he was physically attracted to you. Did I. Did I misunderstand that?

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:29:53] I didn't say that, but I think that. I mean, who knows what that means? And I don't know what could be

Margi Dehlin [01:29:59] more aesthetically, like, physically attracted. Like, aesthetically, but not sexually. But not sexually attracted. Aesthetically, but not such things.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:30:07] Well, and I think it's different to have some sexual attraction or sexual connection versus being deeply sexually attracted to somebody, right? I think it's very different.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:17] Um, yeah.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:30:19] So I think that's. To me, it was like, a level of depth or desire that, like. Cause we made out. It did seem like he was interested. Right. Like, I mean, we were, you know, I don't know, in our 20s. So, like, we made out and stuff. And I. I didn't feel like he was, like, weird. It felt like we did have, like, a physical sexual connection. But I don't think. Yeah, they're. They're. Yeah. I don't know. It's just kind of the way, you know how, like, men, like, maybe not all of them, but it's like the worry, his ability to be that anxious about money while also wanting a woman. Like, usually, like, when you're in that in love stage, you kind of get dumber.

John Dehlin [01:30:58] Right.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:30:58] About those things. And it was, like, so rigid. Right. And I think that was the weird part. Like, this is really rigid for someone you are. Are in love with that you, like, never want to take me out. And it's not like we wouldn't go out anywhere. It wasn't about being seen. It was like, I will not spend money on you. I will not ever be irresponsible. And I just don't think when you're in love, you're that responsible.

John Dehlin [01:31:20] You were wondering how into you he was.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:31:23] Yes, it was. I don't know if it was that. It wasn't that I didn't feel he was into me. It's like, later Reflecting on it, I'm like, maybe that's what that was. I thought it was like, man, you're cheap. Yeah, yeah. Like it felt like that. Like, gosh, this is crazy how cheap you are. But.

John Dehlin [01:31:37] But you want money per se. It's that you want to sign that he's really like head over heels maybe.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:31:45] No, yeah, it was more. I never had a man do that. Oh. And it's like if his friends went out to dinner, he would go out and pay for himself. To me it was just a weird level of financial restriction. And granted I come from like a decent amount of money, but I just had never seen where you would never take your girlfriend out to like a sit down restaurant. That was weird. And he actually later, I did Facebook stalk him many years later. And he married a man.

John Dehlin [01:32:15] Yeah. And in a Mormon context, sometimes bisexuality is a gay man's bargaining that he does until he ends up accepting that he's actually full. It can be both. But in this case you're saying maybe it was more the latter.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:32:32] Yes, that's what I wonder. And I don't know where he's landed. But he did eventually marry a man, which would incline me to say that he probably was more attracted to men than women.

John Dehlin [01:32:42] Closer to six than the zero on the Kinsey scale.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:32:44] Yes, yes, exactly. Exactly. So when after that all that happened and I was processing that.

Navigating Attraction and Sexuality

John Dehlin [01:32:50] Oh, really quick, I have a weird question. Probably for you or for, for many. And I'll just say woman versus man. Can a woman, a straight woman, be attracted to a gay man? I know that sounds crazy to ask that question, like sexually attracted to a gay man.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:33:03] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:33:04] Okay.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:33:05] Yeah. I mean, here's the thing about gay men. They are attractive. Jonathan Bailey was just voted sexiest man alive. He is so attractive. Yes. Gay men, I think are like a lot of gay men are very attractive. In fact, sometimes when attracted, I see that a man's very attractive. I'm like, he's probably gay.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:23] Right.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:33:26] A lot of times.

John Dehlin [01:33:28] And I want to distinguish between aesthetic attraction and sexual attraction.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:33] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:33:33] It can be both. I just want to distinguish.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:33:35] I think they're intertwined. But also gay men sometimes are emotionally a little bit different than straight men,

John Dehlin [01:33:42] more emotionally mature or catheter and fully embodied.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:46] Don't you? You think when it comes to like feelings and characteristics about themselves. Right. Holding more polarity strong but soft. Right. And that is a very attractive thing. Someone who's actually fully in the experience of being human as opposed to, let's say leaning more toward a masculine Presenting experience, Yes.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:34:13] I think a lot of times there's a sensitivity to them that's really attractive, especially in, like, a romantic partner. I think also that part of that could be that they can access it because they're not attracted to you. Right. They may be able to emotionally engage with you because they are not afraid of falling in love with you or you falling in love with them. Is where straight men, I feel like a lot of times they are very. Especially Mormon men, I think, are, if I let you in too much, you're gonna wanna marry me. And I have gotta regulate the distance between me and you. And so I think in a lot of ways, gay men are more emotionally available. So, like, the physical plus the emotional, I mean, that's sex, right? Being able to emotionally, physically connect at the same time, that is sex. So I think, yeah. Yes. I think the women are sexually attracted. Now, the problem with that is. And obviously people have their choices, but I also do think, having been married to men who are heterosexual, I do feel, I do wonder about women who marry men who are gay, because I will say being wanted, like, fully wanted by a man, physically, emotionally is like, to me, every woman deserves that experience. And I think sometimes that's why you can see marriages between gay men or bi men and women not work out. And I think sometimes the women don't know what they're missing because they. Again, in a lot of ways he's more available. But until they're with a man that really sexually wants them, I don't know that they can know that that is missing. Kind of like some of the things like that he was, like, cheap or rigid. I did not know what it was. It was something that bothered me. But it wasn't until he was gay that I was like, oh, that might be that. There's no wanting, so there's no sacrifice. There's no, like, willing to say, like, I'll splurge. Right. He can't do that because he can't give in to the want for me because he doesn't experience it.

John Dehlin [01:36:23] Yeah.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:36:23] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:24] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:36:25] So did you end up with this guy?

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:36:27] No. So we broke up. I ended up moving a few months later out to Utah because I ended up getting a job in Utah with Enterprise Rent A Car might have picked you up if you live in Utah. But in my processing of that relationship, I realized that I had dated another gay man. And that's when, like, things kind of of came crashing a little bit for me.

John Dehlin [01:36:51] You didn't tell us about him, though.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:36:53] No, I haven't told you about him. It was not very long. I dated him. So I was a TA for Poli Sci 200, which, if you are in Poli Sci 200, you know, that's a big deal.

John Dehlin [01:37:04] Poly Sci 2?

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:37:04] Yeah, you know, it's a big deal. Yeah. I was really hardcore and tried to be a Poli Sci 200 TA and so that was. I was a TA and he was also in Poli Sci. He. He was very handsome. Like, movie star handsome. He's from California. Like, tan, dark hair. I think he had brown eyes. Anyway, very handsome. And I was actually shocked that he liked me. He felt too hot for me, to be honest. Like, model hot. I was like, how does he like me? But I was like, I will go with it, right? And he was a friend of a friend. He's, like, from San Diego. And my roommate was from San Diego. She's like, yeah, like, I think you'll really like him. And we went out, and I remember our first date, he spent, like, over a hundred dollars on my meal. And I remember thinking, like, whoa, that feels improvo. I think we went up to Salt Lake and, like, saw a show or something. It felt like a lot. It felt like a lot. But he was, like, from California. But I think I didn't know how to feel about that because obviously I didn't feel like it was his money. Right. The dinner was good. It was my first trying of butternut squash. Highly recommend. But he was really nice, and I really enjoyed being with him. I do remember one time us being in a hot tub at his place and him trying to make out with me. And me feeling, like, really restricted in my body, feeling like he wanted to make out more than me. Not that I didn't want to make out with him, but I think still at that time, like, I've talked to you about my teenage years feeling really almost, like, scared of physicality. So this was earlier at BYU, and, yeah, between 12 and 20, I actually didn't kiss someone again until I was 21. So I dated a little bit at BYU, but didn't really kiss until I was in some of these relationships for, like, a month or two. And so one of the things I broke up with him, and the reason I broke up with him was because I noticed him canceling plans on me to, like, go out with his friends.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:00] Friends.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:39:00] And, like, his friends were, like, going to Wyoming, and he was gonna go, and I was like, this is so weird. And I remember us breaking up and him crying. And I was like, why are you Crying. I was like. And I remember explaining it to him this way. I said, I feel like when we're together, we're like best friends and we have the best time. I was like, but when we're apart, I feel like we're dating other people. And, like, you choose to go out with your friends, like, you cancel plans with me again, this, like, lack of want, lack of, like. Like, this. Like, I'll prioritize. You screw the friends, right? Like that. And I remember being really surprised, and he was crying, and I thought, like, you're the one that's half out in this relationship. So that's kind of how that had ended. And I felt. Yeah, I just kind of, like, couldn't keep emotionally being, like, the only one in it. Like, it just felt too disjointed. But that's when after my this second boyfriend, the one that had come out to. I was like, oh, my gosh, was the other one gay? And so at some point, I did reconnect with my roommate that hadn't grown up with him. And I said, is he gay now? Because this is years, right? This is like four or five years. And she's like, he is. She's like, I didn't want to tell you. I was like, well, why? And she's like, well, I didn't know if it would be. No, she didn't know beforehand. Sorry. She found out later. Later he came out. Later he came out. Sorry, that. That was kind of confusing. Later he came out. But I think she just didn't think, like, I'm going to call and tell you, like, hey, I found out he was gay. Which makes sense.

John Dehlin [01:40:23] You up with the gay guy?

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:40:24] Yeah. Yeah. It felt like, why aren't straight men attracted to me? Why are straight Mormon men not attracted to me? Am I not desirable? I think it really made me wonder about my level of desirability. And that put me in a funky place. And I think I did not know how to sort through that. And I remember going to my bishop and saying, like, something feels really off about this. Like, this happened to me. I'm feeling. I don't know, like maybe I need to sort through it. He's like, you want to go to therapy? And I was like, yeah, maybe. Maybe that would be helpful. And we went to therapy as kids because of my parents divorce. Right. We had gone to therapy a little bit with my dad, but that was really the only therapy I would say I'd gotten up to that point was like therapy as a child with my family. So I Went to therapy and they referred me to LDS services. And I remember I went three times, and they would have me fill out. It was probably like a phq, which is like a depression screener, maybe. They had me. They had me fill out a screener every time I went. And I remember looking through it and being like, yeah, none of these things are problems. Like, I don't have a mood problem. I have a I've been dating gay men problem. And I don't know how to sort through it. So I met with her, like, three times. And maybe because the church was sponsoring it, right? I don't know if she feels pressured to not let, like, I don't know, like, if the person's fine, right? To not, like, keep receiving money for the bishop for services or whatever. I think he was helping. I can't remember. I really don't remember about payment. I mean, I was working, but maybe they offered to help and I just took it. I don't know. Or I might have paid a certain portion on my own. But she, like, dismissed me after, like, three sessions. And we're like, you're fine. And I was like, okay. Like. But I was not gonna argue with her. She wasn't being helpful. She wasn't helping me get to the bottom of it. Right. I was like, okay, I guess I'll just chug along. Right? But I knew something was off, right, like, emotionally for me. And then at some point, I started to develop a friendship with somebody at work. And, like, it, like, the texting became flirty, and then it became a little bit more sexual in nature. And then we began to hang out, and then we did begin to, like, have physical interactions. Right. He was not Mormon. He's very charismatic, attractive, and I don't know what I thought about know, like, where that was gonna go, but it felt good. It felt really good to be desired. Yeah. And by somebody who was like, probably, right. Like, I. I think he, like, he was like one of those guys, like, like, tall, handsome, cool, collected. You know what I mean? Like, probably like a popular, straight. Very straight. Right. So in a lot of ways, he's like your, like, maybe kind of playboy a little bit. I don't know that. I did not know that he was like, he had gotten out of, like, a serious relationship. And in a way, it felt like our friendship maybe in some ways it was kind of like, oh, well, we're not, like, quite dating because he's still kind of getting over this other serious relationship. So I didn't think he was a playboy in that sense, it kind of had felt like, oh, we're keeping this kind of quiet because you're getting out of something and we work together, that kind of thing, you know, at least that's how I interpreted it. But I think it felt good and I think I went along too, because it did feel so good to be desired and it was fun and it was flirty.

John Dehlin [01:44:05] When you were getting emotional just now, what was, what was under that? When you were starting, you started to show some emotion as you were talking about maybe him desiring you or you know, that sort of thing.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:44:17] Yeah, I think my brain got to another point place. I just think it was like really good to feel desired. Right. Like that, that, that, that was like it like fed something.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:28] Yeah.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:44:30] That like had so many times just been like rejected. Right. Like, and maybe like confirmed. And I will say it was really interesting to work at Enterprise, Rent a car, because there's a lot of young people there. And sometimes the men were married, sometimes they weren't. Some of them, there was a lot more non members. And a lot of times even the married guys would be like, you're so cool. I'm so surprised you're not married. Which is like, kind of like is an awful thing to hear as a Mormon woman. But also like, there was this, like, even culturally, I was like, yeah, why can some men see me and others can't? You know? And like married men seem to like, see that, like, I'm funny or I'm fun or like, whatever it is like that I. And I didn't feel like they had a crush on me. I think they were just genuinely like, you're a cool person. I'm surprised you haven't found anybody yet. Right. Like, I didn't feel like they were hitting on me in any way. And so I think like that with. There was this kind of. Yeah. I mean, it's this feeling of like. Yeah. Almost like being malnourished. Right. And then like having something and thinking it's like thinking it's nourishment and then later finding out maybe, maybe it was like candy. Maybe it was like a little empty calories. But so we, up to that point, I really had not crossed any sexual lines. I'm like 26, so that's a big deal to not do anything other than make out with somebody to get to that point in my mind, in my mind, most people don't. And so we did cross some lines. What was really interesting to reflect back on that time was the clarity of mind I had was like Okay, I don't wanna do this. Cause I think I might regret that I'm willing to do these things, right? And also, like, I'm reading my scriptures, I'm praying, I'm doing all the things. And there's a part of me that's like. Like, I don't. Like, I shouldn't do that. I shouldn't do that. And, like, desperate for, like, some sort of, like, divine intervention or something to keep me from maybe going further than I otherwise would and feeling like this is not, like, a knowledge problem. Like, I know the standards. I've been able to keep the standards. Something's different. I don't know what this is. And, I mean, I guess I could have. Well, I'd already gone to the bishop and gone to therapy, right? And that hadn't worked. Anyway, so things did happen. Eventually I did go confess to my bishop and things did fall out with him. And part of that was that I found out that he had been texting other girls, some of my friends, and making out with them. And so I was like, oh, my God. In some ways, this guy is getting kind of predatory. And I don't pretend to know his story, but that felt bad. I think it empowered me to say I have been vulnerable. That did feel good. And he also is not a safe person for me. So I did confess to the bishop, and now I have thoughts about. That grosses me out to think about how bishops of young singles wards, how much they find out about. About women in their 20s and what sexually they're doing that grosses me out. It feels voyeuristic. And they're not trained as therapists. And I think. I don't know. To me, you're, like, setting. You're putting bishops actually in a vulnerable position, I think. But he wasn't inappropriate. I mean, he may have asked me some inappropriate, invasive questions, but I didn't feel like. I don't remember feeling creeped out. I remember feeling like, this man's disappointed in me. And, you know, he like, recommended, like, read these scriptures, read the souls and sacrament or whatever. And I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, I know. I know sex is sacred. I know it's special. Like, I know all this. And I was like, this is not a knowledge problem. But, like, cool, I'll skip the sacrament. I'll read your articles. But this is not that. Like, I knew very clearly that is not my problem. Like. And so for me, I think maybe part of the deconstruction was like, this repentance process is Bullshit. I'm literally. I've been reading this stuff before, during, after my sin, and this is punishment. So I do think it led to me being in a place where. When I moved for graduate school, I thought, I've been looking for that checklist. Right. Of all the things. And I feel like I got down to a place where I was like, there are not that many things on the checklist. Like, I just need to find a good man. Like, that's it. One criteria. A good person. That's it. Right. And so for me, in a way, it was healing, and it did help clarify my values of what I really wanted in a partner, because it stripped away all this extra stuff that we, like, you know, when we encourage young women to, like, I guess, identify exactly what they want in a partner. So often we're creating these long lists. And what it does is it de. Centers the most essential characteristics to a healthy, intimate relationship. And so I do feel like that when I moved to Texas for graduate school, I felt like I was really, really clear on what was essential in a partner. And so it kind of stripped away all the extras and all the bullshit that can, I think, steer us wrong. So in that way, it was healing and that. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:27] And it feels like you kind of walked away with some. A real tangible shift. For the better. Honestly.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:50:37] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:37] For the better. That level of discernment of, like, what matters, what truly matters. That's pretty big.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:50:44] Yes. Yeah. So I don't have regrets. Like, I don't know that I have, like, regrets about it, because again, in my mind, I was like, I reached out for help. I reached out for help in the way a Mormon should, and I didn't get that. And that's fine. Right? Maybe mistakes were made, and that's fine. You learn from them. You grow from them. And I did get to where I was going, so I don't have a lot of regrets about it. But it makes me sad because I realized that in that system, I'm not the only girl that feels that way. And I've seen girls that are 16 years old in that same place, and sometimes they get labeled as sluts and they kind of get ostracized for having sex at 16. So I'm very aware of the implications of what happens when a girl internalizes that mistake as her own failing, as opposed to a systematic failure to teach her how to hold boundaries.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:44] That's right. Yeah. And even maybe we'll add a little bit of a side of innocence.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:51:51] Yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:52] And how it can make you when you're experientially when you don't have the experience, the sexual experiences, it can leave you vulnerable.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:52:03] Yeah, yeah. That can also, like very underdeveloped.

Margi Dehlin [01:52:06] That's right. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:52:07] And for me, we've been talking about you feeling like you're not fitting in the Mormon woman box. And this is a milestone of you exploring, stepping out of the box a little bit and actually learning some important things about yourself. That's what's significant to me.

Margi Dehlin [01:52:25] Yeah, it's almost like a moment of conditioned. A conditioned. Like you have a new emerging self that's a little bit. It's coming out in this moment in the same time as that conditioned self. You have a conditioned self. You have this new emerging self that comes out that desires that really has needs to feel cherished and wanted sexually and emotionally. Yeah. And it's kind of a moment of that.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:52:53] Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

First Marriage and Relationship Dynamics

John Dehlin [01:52:55] So should we talk about your first marriage?

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:52:58] Yes, let's do.

John Dehlin [01:52:59] Okay.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:53:00] Yeah. So at some point I decided to. Well, I guess I should back up because how I got to Texas. Basically the 2008 recession happened, and my very fun job at Enterprise Rent a Car became a lot less fun when gas prices skyrocketed. They really tightened on a lot of things like sales incentives. And as you can see, I'm kind of ambitious, so I like to like, you know, have things to motivate me. And so the fun working place wasn't so fun anymore. And I thought about doing the MBA again. And then I was talking to one of my best friends who's going to social work, and she's talking about that. And I thought, oh my gosh, should I be a therapist? Like, one of my favorite parts of this job is picking people up and they just tell me their stories and I just listen to. I was like, maybe I should do that, because then it's just people. I don't have to worry about sales and things like that. And so I looked into it and I decided, like, yeah, I think I'd be a good therapist. I think I love to talk to people. I love to hear the stories, so maybe I will do that. So I applied and then ended up relocating to Texas and going to grad school. I went to Texas Tech. I applied to a few other schools, but I went to Texas Tech. At their interview process, my. One of my sisters happened to be living there. Her husband was going to law school there. And BYU had recommended their program. And so I was like, okay. I like, called BYU and I said, what other programs should I apply to. And they told me a few. And so I applied to that. And when I went there, I just remember feeling like I was home. It felt so collaborative. It felt like, we're going to help you become the best therapist you can be. It didn't feel competitive. It just. It felt very nurturing, like a very, very, like, good environment. And so when they made the offer, I was like, I'm skipping the unlv. I'm not even. Or in the Seattle Pacific interviews. I'm not even going to go. I'm just going to go to tech. So I started Texas Tech. Loved my program. Loved it, loved. Lubbock is like a really. I mean, it is flat for days, but it is a really nice place because a lot of transplants come. They have, like, a billboard that says, we're the friendliest city, and there is nothing else to do but be with people. So you do find a lot of new friendships and investment in friendships, which is really nice when you're a transplant. So I really liked it there. So I actually met my first husband at a food bank. So he is. He was raised Mormon, but I never actually saw him at the ward. I don't know how I didn't see him at the singles ward. He was getting his undergraduate tour degree, but the ward had done some activity at a food bank. And that's where I met him as we were both volunteering at the food bank. And I remember talking to him, and I was really surprised. He had kind of this, like, west Texas twang, but he was born in Mexico, so I kind of didn't expect that accent coming from that body. And then he was telling us about how his family had cattle and how he would, like, how they'd killed the cattle and prepared the cattle. And I just, like. I was just endlessly fascinated with this man. Like, who is this person? Like, he is so full of surprises. Like, it just felt like you're, you know, like those. Those little YouTube videos where they unwrap the presents for the kids. It was like that, but in a relationship, like, where you're just, like, unwrapping this person and endlessly fascinated by them. And so we became friends. I'd actually kind of been interested in one of his roommates, but as I interacted with him more, I was like, this guy is really interesting. We went to a football game one time, and we were, like, bantering. And I remember, like, noticing a little bit him a little bit more physically like, oh, this guy knows how to dress. And anyway, we were, like, joking Around. And then one time at maybe, like, church or an event, we were talking about, like, good places to eat, and I was like, well, now that I'm in Texas, there's gotta be some good Mexican restaurants. Like, yeah, where's good? And he's like, how about I take you to one? And I said, oh, yeah, that'd be great. And I didn't know if it was a date or not, but when he showed up, he looked like he was dressed for a date. And then when I got in the car and I saw how clean the car was, I was like, oh, this is a date. And it was. And it did end up being a date, but I wasn't sure. But anyway, he was. Yeah, he just endlessly fascinated me. And he was such a. Yeah, such a good person, focused on family. And I do remember he would. So we would date. And I was surprised, like, how he didn't physically touch me. Like, he didn't physically interact with me. I was probably more craving physical interaction quicker. And then one day, he biked over, and I remember feeling like he biked from his house over to my apartment, and he knocks on my door. It was, like, before church, we had, like, afternoon church. And he's like, hey, just a second. And it felt very like Napoleon Dynamite, like, taking his little bike, coming over. And he's like, I just wanted to tell you that I've really enjoyed going on dates with you, and I wondered if you want to be my girlfriend. And, like, we're in our 20s, so it kind of. It feels, like, kind of, like, silly. And at the same time, there was something about it that was, like, so confident and so clear, and I was like, yeah, yeah, like, that he could own. I'm having a really good time with you. I actually want to make this something. And. And so then we, like, started, you know, more seriously dating. And I can't remember how long it took before, like, we kind of knew we wanted to marry. But, yeah, he was majoring in communication. So in that way, he, like, I guess kind of got some of the marriage and family therapy stuff. I remember one time he was reading, like. I think it's called, like, Stonebutch Blues. He about talks, like, a gender class in communication. And I was like, again, you'll see me. And I'm like, this guy's reading a book, like, an autobiography by a transgender person. Like, again, just, like, really open mind. Like, not. And to me, I feel like there's something about that that feels very, like, empowering. But also it is, like, a form of masculinity I'm attracted to. I'm not saying it's only masculine. I think, like, it can be feminine to do. But there's something that feels like this man is not afraid of new things. And that's super attractive to me. Like a man who can intellectually talk about things and not be threatened to shut them down.

John Dehlin [01:59:33] And as far as the heterosexuality, sort of dynamic and you feeling desired, does that result?

Margi Dehlin [01:59:41] Yes.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [01:59:42] So he. He. He had a very. He had a very interesting way, so. Because he. He ended up working as a cowboy after he graduated. He loves horses, and he would train horses as well on the side. And he loved. He worked at a feedlot early in our marriage, so he loves that stuff. But he. So he would. I remember one time, he's like, your body is so fertile looking. And I was like, what? But he would. Like, it sounded like. It almost sounded like a farmer, right? Like, what in the world? But there was, like, a way that he would say it that did it. It might sound stupid to other people, but it was like, what an interesting way to do. But, like, you could, like, feel it. Like, he's like. Like there's, like, you. Like, it's almost like you're like. I don't know. Am I the goddess of fertility? Like, what does this even mean? But, like, it was just like an interesting. It didn't feel like demeaning. It was just like, you. I don't know. It kind of felt like you're so woman. I don't know, but meatball. Yeah, I don't know. So. Yeah, it's so interesting. Yeah, it was kind of weird, but at the same time, it was, like, validating, right? Because it wasn't like, you're so hot. It was like. It did feel very much like validating my femininity. I also think I felt like I lost weight over the course of our courtship. And I do remember thinking that that was also healing feeling like no matter what my body was, that he. Like, whether it was thinner or thicker, that he. Like, he was here for it.

John Dehlin [02:01:19] Right.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:01:19] And so I think that also felt. There was something about that that felt like it stripped away this expectation of, like, the fertile part. Like, maybe, like, using some of those weird terms. But it almost felt like it wasn't about some of these standards we have, right. For women. Like, you should be thinner. You should be this. It was more, like, centered in, like, me being a woman than, like, me fitting some, like, standard. Beauty standard we have of today. So I think that felt really Validating and made me feel like I could be more present in my body. Body for sure.

John Dehlin [02:01:58] So y' all got married?

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:01:59] Yeah, yeah, so we got married. That was not an easy road. I, I was pretty surprised when I first, I guess, got some feedback from people that felt like it was a little racist. Like, what about you two being from different cultures, questions like that, or like, are you worried people will be racist against your kids? And I'm like, well, now I am. Because you said that like you, someone who loves me said that. Like, I didn't think about that before because I don't feel that way about other people's children. Right. So that was kind of hard. But my in laws are such lovely people. And they at that time had a mixed faith marriage. My father in law was out of the church and she was. Isaac and his mom were actually the only ones that were active. And at the time when we married. And so seeing them being best friends, I think was a great example of just like a marriage based on real friendship and respect and family later on, you know. Yeah, there had been this question of like different cultures and I had seen things written in Mormon books and things like that that kind of had said things about like, intercultural marriage can be problematic. Right. So those were real teachings. So I understand that those of older generations, that, that, that was instilled in them, that fear. So I, I do understand where that comes from. It still was deeply painful to be 27 as a Mormon woman, finding someone who I loved, who loved me, who I felt like I could build a life with, and like people couldn't rejoice with me. Nobody could be happy for me. My friends could, but my family couldn't. And I feel like certain people's fears about that bled into everybody else's. And so I think even people who wanted to maybe support had other people that had so much anxiety, so much fear about this marriage that they too, it was like they, they were like frozen by it, right? By me saying, no, this is right, this is wrong. And I do remember asking some family members, like, did you get a revelation that I shouldn't marry him? Like, like, say it, say it if you did. You know, like, tell me, tell me what you know that I don't know. Because unless you do, I'm not, I'm not in taking this information. I'm not considering it in my decision.

John Dehlin [02:04:51] Because you felt that it was inspired. You felt good about it?

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:04:55] Yeah, I felt good about it. Yeah, I felt, yeah, I felt unwavering in it. Yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [02:05:00] And in, in the Mormon mind, there are a couple, say there's a pie chart and each one has a percentage. There's like, he's a dark skinned Lamanite. He comes from a cursed lineage. Let's just say that's one possible pie slice of concern. Another is just the general instruction that Mormon leaders have taught, which is we advise people to not marry outside their race. And along with that quote that's been there forever is we also encourage people not to marry outside of their socioeconomic level. Like, those two came together. So let's say that's a second. I just saw a facial reaction there.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:05:36] Yes, yes, I'm glad you brought that up because I forget about that. Yeah, yeah, but that was something. The socioeconomic level. Isaac grew up in a trailer home. His parents are immigrants. They moved here. His dad built a business by himself. And yeah, I mean, they're the American dream. His sister went into the Air Force. His brother's a teacher. His sister was a police officer. Right. I mean, they, they came and they built a life here and. But they did start off in a trailer home. Right? Because there aren't, contrary to popular belief, there are not handouts. Right. When you talk to people who are immigrants, they have scars on their body because they didn't go to the doctor. You don't go to the doctor unless you have to and you pay cash. Right. So. So his childhood was. I don't know that they would have said they were poor. I think a lot of times white Americans have a lot of stereotypes about you should have a house that is more expensive than your car. Right. Things like that is where a lot of cultures don't need a big house. They don't need a big house. So they will be fine to live in a small house.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:51] House.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:06:52] And they will get the car they want. And it's not that they're getting a nice car at the expense of the house. They just don't need a big house. And he at the time was a green card holder. I don't know if he would have been eligible for citizenship. But also like his family, like back then, being a green card holder, also like, you don't need to get citizenship. You have legal residency here. If you don't have any plan to do anything illegal, why give up your citizenship in Mexico? Especially for like people like his parents that could get health benefits so they could go down there for dental work or healthcare. Right. That is like free or very low cost. So it doesn't make sense for a lot of permanent residents to get citizenship in the U.S. unless leaders are like, taking away their rights or they feel like they're gonna get in some sort of trouble and they would need citizenship to stay. But if you're a good resident, why give up your citizenship? It doesn't, it doesn't make sense. So, yeah, actually, when I was talking to my husband a little bit about coming over the seas, he said something. Because I said something. I said, I feel like in my family there often is a lot of pushback against males who enter the family. A lot of. And I think a lot of that is like, are you going to be a safe man? Like, men have historically harmed people in this family. I have one brother, so most of us are women. And so I think that is true. But my husband did say something to me where he was like, yeah, but you gotta understand that, like, for Isaac, that was probably really different than even when I came in the family. He's like, because he was questioned not just about being a man entering, are you gonna take care of the woman in this family? But, like, what about your citizenship? What about, are you gonna provide for her? And that was directly stated to him. Something about like, Rebecca comes for money. Rebecca likes nice things and her sisters are gonna eventually have money. You know, are you gonna be able to provide that life? And I don't, I don't know what Isaac said. I mean, Isaac can hold his own for sure. But I do. See, I think he, I don't. He probably wouldn't have. He probably wouldn't have been like, I'm gonna make a lot of money for her. He probably would have responded, we don't. That's not our values. Like, and that's the truth. It's like, I am not, look, I mean, I am looking to share a life with a man. I'm not looking for a man to take care of me. That has never been. I've never needed that.

John Dehlin [02:09:29] Which is the least Mormon thing anyone's ever said on women's face. Sorry, just kidding. I mean, exaggerating. Let me, let me ask you. So just so you know, clearly the LDS church has had a history of problems with racism, but having grown up in Texas, I think any white middle to upper middle class girl marrying Hispanic immigrant in Texas would have raised eyebrows, probably in any family across almost any religious tradition. So is there any way for you to even tease out how much of that disappointing reaction from your family was Mormon versus just human or, you know, normal American stuff?

Margi Dehlin [02:10:11] Cultural.

John Dehlin [02:10:12] Cultural. It's probably, there's probably no way for you to know.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:10:16] That's a good. Yeah, that's a good question. I think so. I didn't grow up in Texas. I actually feel like had I grown up in Texas, there probably would have been less pushback. Cause there are. There's so many Hispanic people in Texas. I remember us having one friend that was from Mexico and my mom did befriend her and she was somebody in our ward and she came over a lot and cooked with us and we went to her house. And my mom has, I think, maintained contact with her over the years. But that was like one. That was like the one Hispanic person we knew. So they're just like. There just wasn't a big population. So I think it was a lot of stereotypes about Mexican culture. So I think it was not having interface with that culture. And then probably the fears perpetuated Mormonism, which is, you know, mixing other cultures is bad.

Margi Dehlin [02:11:17] And American culture itself, I think has it. It feels like there are a lot of layers of support for what you experienced.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:11:26] Yeah, yeah. And I think I was a little surprised because some of my siblings serve missions in Spanish speaking areas. And so I think in that way, like I have a sister that like her husband speaks only Spanish to the kids. Like they're raising their kids bilingual. They both serve Spanish speaking missions. And I think, I think those who had had interaction with the culture didn't have those same themes, those same concerns. But I don't think they. I don't know that they. I don't know that they were in a great position to defend me. Right. Or speak reason. I think in a lot of ways I just think sometimes when those fears are unlocked in my family because of the trauma, I think a lot of times people are like. And I can say this for myself because this has happened when a sibling of mine got married where I felt like there was a lot of anxiety and fear and the way certain behaviors of a man were interpreted were in a very negative light. And I think on some. And I was like, wait, is this that right? So you get kind of scared of like, maybe this person isn't good. And you know, it's like in these Mormon relationships, you're not. It's not like we've met this person and interacted with them for two years. Right. You've dated them for a couple months, a couple people in the family have met him and now they're gonna get married. So I think also the lack of interaction with, you know, within the courtship and when somebody's engaged also perpetuates this. If there is some sort of fear or misinterpretation or, like, a projection onto someone I've seen even. Even myself, where I have, in some ways been like that, frozen. Like, I don't know that I can step in and support my sister. Because. Because what if they're right? What if he is that right? So you kind of just let the other people who think they know what's happening handle it. But what it does is it resulted in really low support. And, you know, we showed my kids the wedding video a little while ago one time for, like, a family activity. And it's painful to watch the video. Cause there's the videographer, like, had family members sit down and, like, say well wishes. And you can see the difference in his family being, in my friends being, like, so excited. And you can see my family members and how they, like, kind of don't know what to say. You can see the restriction in their bodies. And also at the wedding, we had a very fun wedding. And we did it in Texas. That was also a thing. There were some. Some. There was some pushback on doing it in Texas, but I was like, I can't plan a wedding where I don't live. So that was kind of crazy, too, but I don't want to get too much into that. But that was also even just, like, where the wedding was held.

John Dehlin [02:14:23] It was a temple marriage, right?

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:14:24] It was a temple marriage.

John Dehlin [02:14:25] Okay. Yeah.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:14:25] Was a temple marriage.

John Dehlin [02:14:26] Which temple?

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:14:27] Lck.

John Dehlin [02:14:28] Okay.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:14:28] L has a small temple.

John Dehlin [02:14:29] Okay. Okay.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:14:30] And. But we did it in lck, because that's where we're both living. We're going to school. I'm in grad school planning a wedding. And we had, like, a long dance. We had a mariachi band. It was a fun wedding. And I do remember afterwards, family members being like, that was so fun. And also, like, they saw our love, and I think they knew they had been wrong. And so that also is really painful because it's like, you're not believed, and you should never have to prove your love. And, Yeah, it's like, we could have enjoyed that together. But, like, the fears, the. That. That drove distance.

Margi Dehlin [02:15:31] Yeah. Yep.

John Dehlin [02:15:33] I'm sorry for the. Well, I'm happy that you found love. Cause it sounds like you fell in love.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:15:39] Yes, I did.

John Dehlin [02:15:39] And you found a partner that you. That was good for you.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:15:43] Yes, absolutely. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:15:45] And I'm sad that some of those cultural aspects maybe soured a little bit. Some of.

Margi Dehlin [02:15:51] Yeah. Some of the support, some racism, some, you know, real tangible fear that, you know, created separation yeah, yeah.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:16:02] And later on I remember like thinking about it and thinking about their, you know, like, is the cultural problem. And I remember thinking like, over time I learned I'm the cultural. The culture isn't a problem. It's. The cultural differences are actually why I'm attracted to Isaac.

Margi Dehlin [02:16:23] Right.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:16:23] Isaac's family has so much warmth. I remember being surprised how I saw money work, like in a circular way where in my family worked top down. And at first I was like, oh, that's kind of different. And then thinking like seeing like how you could be supported by anybody at any time, somebody would come in and help you is where I probably never would feel like I could ask a sibling for help. And so there were a lot of things that I learned over time that like, this culture is really beautiful and that culture inside of Isaac is what attracts me to him. It is not a problem for me. It's exactly why I'm attracted to him.

Margi Dehlin [02:17:04] That is so beautiful. So beautifully said.

Married Life and Growing Tensions

John Dehlin [02:17:11] So for the sake of time, how do you want to describe, you know, those married years with Isaac and how it.

Margi Dehlin [02:17:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:17:22] How it unfortunately, I guess, ended?

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:17:24] Yeah. So we. We got pregnant pretty fast.

Margi Dehlin [02:17:29] We.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:17:30] I was about to turn 28, so I was like, maybe we don't do birth control because we both want a family. And I don't know if I have fertility issues. So we didn't use any protection. And of course it only took a month. So I was pregnant at the end of my master's degree and I had our first child in September of 2012 and we had a son. His name's Wyatt. And then I started a private practice after I graduated and Isaac worked at a feedlot. And so that was kind of like what we were doing. He was doing the cowboy thing, training horses on the side. And then I was doing my private practice. And then we had another child, that's a girl. Her name is Rose. And so, yeah, we were really enjoying family life. I will say I after Rose. I do remember feeling really anxious about our finances. Right. Which in some ways maybe confirmed my parents fears because I was seeing that last year, like the way Isaac was like doing the cowboy thing and doing the horses on the side. It did feel like there's no. Like this is how it's always gonna be. Right? Like it's never. There's no growth. And so things felt kind of tight with me working part time. And it was like, do we need to consider me working full time? Like, what do we need to do? And I think part of it was being really I was really anxious because I just had a second child. And then it felt like, oh, no, now we have two, and we don't have this figured out yet. And so that felt really difficult. And so that was a difficult time in our marriage. And it was hard because I'd had family come out to help, and they could kind of see it. Right. And so that also felt hard because I didn't want to talk to my family about it because in many ways they were like, you will be unhappy if you. If you're not rich.

John Dehlin [02:19:34] Right?

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:19:35] Or something. And it's kind of like, are you gonna be helpful or. You know what I mean? Like, how are. Like, can you support me as we work through this? Isaac is a very talented artist. He was actually gonna do architecture, but then when he went to school, there were some things that got messed up with the mission because, like, you have to, like, take certain prereqs and then get in the program at a certain time. So. But also he realized the architecture was more. More like, on computers than drawing. And anyway, he's an excellent artist. And so he started doing leather work, actually, like, where you make the chaps and the different. Like you could build saddles, boots, whatever. And so I felt like we actually had worked through that, and I was like, I think you need to focus on this and do the other thing part time. Like, switch your part time and your full time. And so it did feel like we had gotten to a place where we could kind of agree on something, that if he was going to be the main provider, that it. That maybe that would be better. And so we had kind of just worked through that. But he was, at the time, his last job was working at a ranch. Like, this guy owned, like, a bunch of Dairy Queens. So he was, like, really rich and bought this beautiful ranch and all these beautiful black Angus cows there.

John Dehlin [02:20:56] Was it called Yellow?

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:20:57] No, it wasn't called Yellowstone. But I've been to the Four Sixes ranch. I've been to a horse auction there.

John Dehlin [02:21:04] I just watched a couple seasons of Yellowstone, so had to ask.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:21:08] Yeah, but so he worked there, and so one day he was going to work. This is so interesting is 2015, September. We had just gone and visited my family a couple weeks ago, a couple weeks before. And so that was fun, and that was a good vacation. And I feel like in those last few years, it kind of felt like my family had relaxed around Isaac and could, like, enjoy him and really get to know him. And so that had been really nice. And we came back into town and there was something he was gonna do, move around his schedule. And I remember this. I mean, this day is so vivid for me, for obviously many reasons. And I remember our son, I think, had woken us up early. And I had decided to make breakfast for Isaac, which is not something I always did, but I was like, hey, let's make breakfast. And I remember him, like, eating it in bed. And Isaac would watch Fox News sometimes. He wasn't necessarily conservative, but he was watching it privately probably maybe for ironic reasons, I don't know. And I remember I was like. I said this to him. I said, they are gonna give that election to Donald Trump. They need to stop talking about him. Because it was like he was getting so much attention from the news. They were just focusing on everything he said. And I remember, like, that was the conversation we had over breakfast. And then he's like, well, he's like, you know, I don't think there's much to do today. What are you doing today with the kids? Cause I work Tuesday, and this was a Wednesday. And I said, I think I'm gonna take him to the park. And he's like, well, I think I'll go in. I'll, like, feed the cows. I'll talk to him. And I might take today off, and I'll come, like, meet you at the park. And I said, okay, cool. And so I, like, loaded the kids. So he left. And I actually, like, didn't even check my phone. Didn't even think about him. Like, I didn't really think more about him meeting up with us. Cause I wasn't sure if he was gonna be able to take off the day to be with us or not. Like, I wasn't sure what else they might need at the ranch. And so I remember throwing the trash in the back of the car to take it to the dumpster. And I put the kids in the car. And I see two cops walk up. And I think, oh, no, I'm being served papers. I'm being sued. This is my thought. And I'm thinking, did a client die? Right? This is my thought. It's like, I'm being served papers. And, like, I'm being sued for, like, something. Because I just couldn't conceive of why two cops would be there. They come in and they ask me to sit down, or they ask if they can talk to me. And I said, yeah, come in, whatever. I said, well, let me get my kids. And so I put them. Actually, I'm trying to remember the exact timeline events. I can't remember Everything. Exactly. But at some point I did take the kids and I put them down, but I might have already gotten the news. But they said, your husband's been in a car accident. And like in that moment, the mind, like your mind starts racing. And I began to realize, like, why are they. If they're here, why hasn't he called me? Right. Like, it becomes very clear that, like, it's really bad. And they did. He died on impact and yeah, like, fell to the ground.

The Death of Her Husband Isaac

John Dehlin [02:24:33] And they,

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:24:41] They like recommended I have someone come. They like, ask who can come and call people with you? And I was like, no, it's fine. I, I'll call. I'm the wife. That's what I'm thinking. Like, I'll like, why would I have somebody else call? Like, I'm his wife. I got to call and tell everybody, right? This is how my mind is working.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:00] And then

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:25:03] at some point they leave and I start to make the calls.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:10] And

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:25:14] I mean, they obviously had. They knew that I would need help. I mean, they tried to recommend that I do that, but I don't know that they necessarily explained or. And maybe it wouldn't have helped. I don't know.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:28] Know.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:25:28] But I did not know what it would be like to be on the other side of a mother's grief.

John Dehlin [02:25:36] And

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:25:39] like the wailing, like the sounds that come out of other people's bodies when someone has died is. It's not a sound you hear.

John Dehlin [02:25:51] Yeah.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:25:52] Like some movies get it. Right. But it's a very particular sound. And it was just. Yeah. Some people were like, are you serious? Are you joking? And again, obviously they're experiencing shock, but sometimes like, even questions like that, like, felt like, that felt so overwhelming to be like, no, I'm not joking. Why would I joke about this? Right? So, like, I don't think that was ill intentioned, but it was, it was too much. So I ended up calling. I don't know if I called friends, but I think one of the people that ended up helping me was actually my branch president's wife. We were in the Spanish branch at the time. And her, her son actually had died at like 28 and he had been a veteran. He was in the army, I think. I don't think he died in combat. I want to say he like got an illness while he was abroad or something. But anyway, he, her. Their son had passed away and so she really knew. And I am so grateful for her because she knew exactly like what we needed. And she came over and she's like, we need your babysitter. To come. The person who watched my kids when I was working, she had a babysitter. We need a babysitter to come. And we're going to call people. And she just knew exactly what to do. And she's like, the church will help with whatever we need to help with. And she. We wanted. Anyway, her and her husband, we were close to them. Isaac was really. Isaac was in the branch presidency, so he was very close to the branch president. The branch president had actually been raised in Chihuahua in the. My. Isaac's. Yeah. In the colonies. His family was from there, and so he's fluent in Spanish. And his. Isaac's family's from Chihuahua, the city and the state. His dad's family's more from the mountains, but his mom's from the city. But they. Anyway, they were godsends and really helped because family was coming up from Mexico. We wanted to do it on a Sunday. I guess doing a funeral on a Sunday is not kosher in the LDS Church, but the branch president was like, we'll do it on a Sunday. You know, he just. He made. He made the things happen. We did the funeral, and he allowed for us to have, like, a period of time afterwards where people just came up and shared memories of Isaac. It was so beautiful. So really, a lot of good support from that branch president and his wife. Yeah. Anyway, so they. They really stepped in.

John Dehlin [02:28:44] And what is it. What is the. What was your perspective as a Mormon wife and woman with children in a temple? Eternal marriage. To have your eternal companion die while you have young kids and you're in your 30s. What's that like? Especially theologically, but also emotionally, psychologically, Practically all the Lees, Basically.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:29:09] Yeah. I think psychologically, one of my first thoughts was like, of course this happens

John Dehlin [02:29:18] to me because it was so hard to get in the first place.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:29:22] Or no. So I feel like. Because my parents, like, divorced when I was really young.

Margi Dehlin [02:29:28] Oh.

John Dehlin [02:29:29] Cursed or.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:29:30] No, not a curse. It felt like I had from a very young age. I had no expectations that life owed me something. Right. And I think that's maybe why also kind of earlier I said I never expected a man to take care of me. I knew things didn't always go as planned. Life was not a fairy tale. Good people get hurt, good people get left, and bad things happen.

John Dehlin [02:29:57] That's. Of course this happened. Not, of course this happened to me. I guess I'm wondering about the. To me because the to me suggests that you felt like you had a curse or death wish or, you know, deserved it or something.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:30:11] Like, that it wasn't a deserving thing. I think it's a feeling of. Of like. It actually comes from probably a more prideful place of like, kind of like, you can handle it.

John Dehlin [02:30:29] Oh, yeah. Oh, like I'm strong, I'm chosen.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:30:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:30:33] I get the harder stuff.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:30:35] Yeah. And it wasn't that I felt chosen or I felt prideful. It was this kind of thing of like. And it wasn't like, deserving, but it's like, you can do hard things. You've done hard things, you've done hard things. And so a cushy life is not for you. And it's not about deserving, but it's like, you'll get through it kind of type thing. Like you're stronger. Yeah. Like, sometimes I hear people say, like, I can't watch the news, it's too hard for me. And that's like, so foreign to me to feel like I could be entitled to be like. Like I shouldn't be bothered.

John Dehlin [02:31:11] Right.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:31:12] Like, so there's this feeling of like, so I think when it happened, it's like, of course it happened to me because I won't be destroyed by this. Like, I will find a way through it.

John Dehlin [02:31:24] There's this Mormon teaching that God won't give you any opposition that's greater than what you can handle. I was taught that.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:31:31] Yeah. So it might be kind of connected to that. It's not like one for one, but of kind. Kind of that, like, if this happens to me, it is this confirmation of like, yes, like, you can handle this, you can do it. And of course it happened to you, not the next person, because the next person wouldn't. Would have just crumbled. Right. That type of thing. But, like, you'll find a way through it. So that's where I. I don't know if that's like a prideful thing, but it. It doesn't come from a. Like, you deserve it so much as, like, you can handle it.

John Dehlin [02:32:02] Well, I mean, the implications of the Mormon plan of salvation are that we're here to experience adversity and to become strong. And so if that's true, then the more adversity you have, in theory, the stronger you get. So there is a Mormon privileging of adversity and the whole pioneer heritage and the discriminated people where, like, if we're our strongest, most Mormon, obedient, healthy self, we're like, bring it on. And the more challenges we have are a sign that God thinks we can handle more adversity because we'll Become even stronger once we overcome it. I don't know.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:32:43] That's.

John Dehlin [02:32:44] Psychologically.

Margi Dehlin [02:32:45] Yeah. I just think it's ironic, though, because within Mormonism, there's always, like, the foil. Because the foil to that is like. And if you do all the things, and if you do the list and if you. You'll be protected, you'll be blessed, you'll be. So it is. It's like this. Yeah. It's a tricky.

John Dehlin [02:33:01] Well, there's. The house always wins. You know what I mean? If you don't have adversity, it's because you're righteous and you were blessed. And if you do have adversity, it's because you were wicked and didn't do the right thing. There's a million different ways where the church always comes out looking.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:33:13] Looking the best.

John Dehlin [02:33:14] Right. But in your mind, you were like, oh, this is a sign that I. I could do this, Right?

Margi Dehlin [02:33:20] Yeah.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:33:21] I don't know that I saw it. Like, I don't know that I had that exact thought, but it was more like, of course this would happen to me. I think that was one of the. That was, like, the only thought I can think of that I had about me. The other piece that I think is really unique to my situation is that Isaac had talked about dying early. Isaac had often, like, would say things like, I'm gonna die before you. And he wasn't, like, suicidal or depressed or something, but he had this. Like. He's like, I just don't feel like I'm gonna live a long life. He's like, I don't. And he didn't say, like, he was gonna. He made it sound like he's gonna die at 60, right? Like, he was not gonna live to 80 or 90. Like, he was gonna be the first person to die. But he did. It was. I did not think, you know, when he died that he would die in his 20s. But. But there was this thing, and I had even. I don't know if it was before or after, but I saw in some of his journals, like, he even said he's like, I've done everything I need to do in my life. I, like, found, like, I found a partner. I've made a family. I'm. I am, like, at peace. So he had, like. And, like, the fact that he. A lot of people would tell him they were jealous of him for working as, like, a cowboy because they're like, oh, I wanna do that when I retire. And, like, he was like, I don't wanna wait to live my life. So in a Lot of ways he lived for now and really did everything in alignment with his values. So there's several pieces of writing from him where you see he's very much at peace with the choices he made in his life. And what's interesting too is I think that allowed for so much acceptance about this being the path. Even though, like, I never would have wanted to lose Isaac, his dad also said something about how he had said something to him and how his dad said, yeah, like, I felt like Isaac thought he was gonna die before me. And so that even helped his parents. I think that they're this like, piece that like, Isaac knew that Isaac felt at peace, that Isaac somehow knew his life was short and he made choices accordingly. I think brought all of us a lot of peace because. And it wasn't peace like, because we're going to live together forever, but it was like he lived an honorable life and he did everything he wanted to do. So I think that helped a lot of. To let go. We also all knew he wanted to be cremated. Like, we knew how he. We knew how to handle the funeral. Like, we knew everything. And so again, that's really unique. Like, and again, I don't. It's not like he was planning it, but somehow we had had those conversations and we had known that. And again, in his writing there's no, like, I'm gonna die soon. There's nothing like that straightforward. But it really was, I think, a huge part of, of all of us being able to accept that this was the path, this is where his life ended.

John Dehlin [02:36:31] It was just an accident.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:36:32] Yeah, it was just an accident. Yeah. I mean, and it is sad, like the person did like turn into him. He wasn't wearing a seatbelt. It was an old car. There's a chance it could have been avoided. I don't know. They didn't check the person's phone. There's a lot of. But again, I think none of us, like chased after that because again, it was like, it was like a knowing for all of us that like, even as painful as it was to lose him, like none of that was going to bring him back and he was okay to go. I think that that more than anything, I think, like, I don't know that that was everything. To know that he was okay going kind of.

Margi Dehlin [02:37:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:37:22] And then what does that do for you theologically with your religious beliefs about eternal companion, eternal marriage, eternal family, as a Latter Day Saint?

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:37:33] Yeah, so that. Yeah, I was 32 and I've got a three year old and a one and a half year old. Like, my. My family life is just getting started. I didn't think I was done having kids. So a lot of it felt like life interrupted. Like, what? I lost my partner. I don't think I'm done having children. Like, what in the world? What in the world?

Margi Dehlin [02:37:59] So.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:37:59] And then with the ceiling, that was really hard too. Because what is eternal marriage when it ends at 32 or, like, you have a break, I don't know until what, I'm 90, like, 60 years. I. It just didn't feel realistic that I would live the rest of my life alone. And I didn't. I didn't feel any need to prove my love to Isaac by being alone. I really enjoyed being married to Isaac. We were best friends. I think I had people tell me, like, your guys. Marriage is different. Like, you can see that. You guys really like each other. So I. I think I didn't feel any sort of, like, I'm gonna prove my love by being alone or whatever. But it did make me. I just thought, well, I probably will remarry. So that felt like, really, like, this is strange because I don't. I just had never thought about any of it before. But, like, yeah, I'm 32. I'll probably remarry. How soon? I don't know. I don't know. Like, I'm not thinking about that. But, like, I imagine that would just be really crazy if I didn't, you know. So it did lead me to question and I heard a few things. I joined some widow. Widower groups. You know, there you hear people asking questions and things about the sealing practices. So all of that gets. You kind of get, like, pieces of that. And it probably doesn't become relevant until you do start really dating someone and considering getting serious with someone. I think another piece, I think, to think about is just the. I wanna get more into the ceiling because there's a lot to my story with that. But the theology, I think, is really important too, as far as death, right? This, like, we're gonna be together forever. And this, like, somehow allows you to circumvent grief. And it doesn't. And so I immediately knew that, like, grief is not about knowing what happens after. But if you really love someone and genuinely enjoyed being with them in your life, their absence, now, that's painful.

Grief, Faith, and Life as a Mormon Widow

Margi Dehlin [02:40:10] That's right.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:40:12] And like, for me, it was like cellular. You know what I mean? We, like, bear testimony. Like, what is it? That phrase that everybody says in their testimony? In my every fiber. Every fiber of my being, right? Like, there's there's these phrases and does it feels like every cell in your body, like, it will feel like this. Your brain knows that happened and your body's like, but where are they? And so it's like this. Like, it almost does feel like your brain has to tell, like your every little cell and you're like, has to call every cell in your body. And the way he's gone, like, he's not going to be here when we wake up. You need to remember. And I do remember, like, waking up being really painful until I had a dream where he was dead. And that when I had a dream that he was dead and he came to, like he was in the dream talking to me. And I don't know that it necessarily felt like deeply spiritual, like he, like, really appeared to me, but in a dream where I had. Where he was dead, that was. That was really impactful in, I think, the psychological, like, turn of not having to wake up and reminding myself and my body like, he's gone.

Margi Dehlin [02:41:38] I can imagine.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:41:39] Yeah. So that was hard. And I think. I mean, the funny thing is I'm a therapist, so there's a lot of things I know how to do, how to cope. And I think only about a year later I was like, oh, that was probably traumatic, which. Right. Like, I should know that it's traumatic. But I think because I had a lot of support and a lot of coping skills in a lot of ways, I don't think I really quite knew how traumatizing it was to my body. It was hard to sleep at night. I really procrastinate sleep. That was a big thing. I feel like I still can have sleep issues from it. Like, I don't. It's not this. It's not the same. But I do think it's like it feels residual. Right? This kind of like. Yeah, it. There's just like a residual of it that I feel sometimes. And I think for me, that felt like a big part of my grieving process. I wrote a blog, it is still out there on the Internet, where I just blogged sometimes about my process of grief. And I think that felt really important because I don't know that it felt like there was a lot of space in the church to tell the story as it really was.

Margi Dehlin [02:43:01] Right.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:43:01] Because you're always trying to. It's almost like people. I tell my friend, there's grief whores. And I mean, like, W H O R E S so when someone dies, it's really weird, but people want to be your friend. They don't know you and they want to be your friend. And you're like, why? Because I had someone die. What a weird reason to be your friend. I call them grief wars, but. And I had one person do it and like, I was like, sure, we can talk. And then it was like all of a sudden they were telling me all about their addiction. I was like, am I supposed to be your therapist right now? Like, I'm grieving. Like, you seem genuinely interested in maybe like being there for me. And now I feel like I'm turning into your therapist. So it was so weird. But what I think happens sometimes is people wanna be inspired by you. They also want you to confirm their faith. They want to see that the faith works for you, that it protects you from the worst nightmare. Right? People say, I can never, oh, I can never imagine that happening to me. And I'm like, well, you actually could, could, because you just did. And you said you didn't want it, right? Like, of course. And of course you don't. Of course you don't want this to happen. I didn't want it to happen. But that's a big piece. Is like this feeling of people looking to you to validate their belief system. And that feels, that feels bad. But also it feels like it didn't bring me comfort. It didn't bring me comfort that we were married forever because he was gone now. My children lost their father, I lost my husband and my best friend. My in laws lost a son and a brother. And, and the theology doesn't change that. And that isn't to be like dark. It, it just, it doesn't, it doesn't fix that. Can't take away the, it can't take away like the sting of death. It doesn't. And if it did, I wouldn't want it, right? Because to me, grief, the pain in grief is inextricably linked to the love we shared and the memories that we hold. And you can't. Can't. If you would fully embrace something, there's no way you can be okay or not feel totally disrupted by its absence. There's just no way.

John Dehlin [02:45:48] You know, people who haven't really processed something like this might say, why would you want the pain? But like, if you go and lift weights and you really work hard, right? It'd be weird if there was no soreness afterwards. I've heard people who are really into weightlifting say, I like the soreness. You know what I mean? Cause it's a sign that I worked hard. And you're saying a sign that you loved is that you're grieving.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:46:17] Yes. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:46:18] Is that right?

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:46:19] Yeah. Yeah. It is the direct result of having, like, been present for it all. Right. To have really lived. Right. I. I remember in my grief reading, C.S. lewis has some writings on grief.

John Dehlin [02:46:38] Grief observed.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:46:39] Yeah, Grief observed. And there's this beautiful part where he talks about, like, sometimes the grief is about not knowing who you would have been. Like the last, like, the. Like. Yeah. Missing the arguments, the things like the conflict that means there's tomorrow. The. How you would have interacted or responded to this new thing. Like, the way you're constantly revealing yourself to me like that. That is. When you know someone really deeply, it is painful to not know, to not get to see them evolve, grow. How they would have, you know, processed things. How he would be like a father to our children now. Like, our. The oldest, who are, like, 13 and 11. And the other day, my son, he had, like, to do a little TED Talk for his. For his assignment, and he gave it to me. And, you know, I'm seeing him move, and he moves just like his father. And because it's a speech, there's ways I see him moving his hands that are. I mean, it's just like Isaac. And he does look a lot like Isaac. Like, even the Apple ID once paired them together as the same person. And. Yeah. And so there's like, the facial recognition. Yeah, the facial recognition. And there's just, you know, like, I see Isaac in my son, and. Yeah. It's hard to know that, like, Wyatt will never quite know how much he's like his father or that Isaac won't get to see that. And same with Rose. I mean, those are the things where you're like. It feels like, yeah, it's such a loss that he didn't get to experience that. And I don't know. I guess I don't feel. And maybe because I've grown up in pain. Pain, you know, like, it was always there in my family. And people say this about grief. You. It doesn't go away. You just learn to live with it. And. And maybe that's just a reality for me, right. Where it's like, this isn't so aversive because it's. It's been around in different forms, but I've just learned to live around it and process through it, you know, and find a way to find meaning in my life and love in my life. Even though I carry this memory of what. What was and what could have been.

Margi Dehlin [02:49:14] Right. We actually. We. I'm just gonna share something Briefly, we just read a memoir in our book club called Lost and Found, and I think the. It's split up in different sections, but the lost part is about her losing her dad. And one of the things you just said reminded me of a part where she's talking about grief, in particular after her dad has died. And it's this idea of a 180, how visceral grief will grab you. And for a moment, she's in the past and she's grieving these memories of her dad. She's thrust into the past, and then the next moment she's thrust back to the future as well as in the present. And it's just this. You're grieving it all. You're grieving the future, you're grieving. She gets married and she's thinking about her dad not being there. She's thinking. And just, you know, how grief, you know, is just all encompassing. Past, present, future. And. Yeah, that visceral. The visceral kind of nature of it. And you were, when you were talking, just one last thing. It was reminding me also of a memoir. When Breath Becomes Air. I don't know if you've heard of it. Yeah, a memoir. And it's written by. I think he's a neuroscientist. It's a doctor who ends up having a stage four cancer writing about it. He writes about it as he goes through and eventually he dies and his wife writes the afterword. But in that novel, this just. You were talking and it reminded. There's this quote that I wrote down by Ms. Merwin, and it's about grief. And it says, your absence has gone through me like thread through a needle. Everything I do is stitched with its color. And I just.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:51:07] I love that.

Margi Dehlin [02:51:08] I love how integrated that is, how grief becomes. Becomes something that is absolutely. You know. Yeah. Everything you do is stitched. You know, it's the color of that loss. It's just. It's changed.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:51:24] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:51:24] You know how you live and how you see things. Yeah.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:51:27] Yeah. It really. Yeah. That's beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. Because I think that does. That's a beautiful imagery of, like, the experience which is it. It changed. Changes how you see the whole world, how you see life. It gives you such a different. Yeah. Like a different perspective on everything. You cannot see things the same as you once did. You can't unsee it. And. And it does. It changes how you show up in everything. There was something you said where you said it's like all encompassing. And I think one of the things too that when Isaac died, when I was thinking about our marriage and what that meant, right. Like that our marriage is eternal. And I thought about like the meaning of like eternal and, and how maybe I think what I started to think was maybe we think of eternal as like time, but maybe it's not time. Right. Maybe eternal is actually kind of like this infinite, all encompassing thing. Like our love is eternal because it's godly. And I don't know that that necessarily means it has to be like of Heavenly Father. I mean, there's something really holy about the love we shared that's really eternal. And I don't know that it has to be about time. I just think that is true. And so I think it changed the way that I looked at our love as not time bound or even defying time, but as being godly and holy unto it. Like worthy in and of itself, like not up for debate. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:53:11] Godly, sort of. Yeah. I've heard it said and I've maybe witnessed it a bit, that Mormons can be impatient with other people's grief.

Margi Dehlin [02:53:23] Grief.

John Dehlin [02:53:24] Did you experience that or did you not experience that? The people would get uncomfortable with anything other than I'm great things are great plan of salvation. It'll all be taken care of in the next life. Or did you find your Mormon ward members, family were. Were okay with your grieving and sitting with you in your grief?

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:53:46] I think for the most part I have people in my life that are really good at sitting with me. I had a Mormon professor who was also my stake president, and he's like, let's meet. I don't know if we met weekly or bi weekly. He's like, but let's just meet to chat for like the next six months. So I just want to check, you know, be able to like be there for you. And that was really meaningful. And so he's a therapist. So like he. So I think in that way I had a spiritual leader who was very. And again, my. I didn't continue to go to the Spanish branch because I don't actually speak Spanish, but the Spanish brunch president, I feel like. Yeah. So I feel like my direct leaders. Lubbock is a really unique place in terms of leadership where you have a lot of leaders who are therapists. So they're progressive in ways other Mormon leaders are not.

John Dehlin [02:54:36] Yes. And trained.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:54:39] And so I would say it's a very like, it ends up being progressive in maybe unexpected ways. But so I felt like in my leadership I definitely had people who got it Right. Like, and did not. That could sit with pain. I had a friend that was like, I'm gonna call you every day. Like, and she did. She called me every single day just to, like, say hi. Cause she's like, you've lost a life partner. I'm gonna call you every day. And so that was really meaning. So I think I did have people. I don't necessarily feel like my family was impatient. I think just overall, every now and then, both. Sometimes there's comments where it's like, when you're over this. Or like, I don't. Maybe they don't say it that way. There can be comments or like, oh my gosh, that sounds so hard. Or I could never imagine that there's ways that people distance themselves. Like, little comments like that. And that feels. It can feel. I think that can feel like a little impatient or avoidant maybe. But also I'm like, yeah, I don't know. There's also, I think a part of me as a therapist was like, I don't need to be offended by that. Like, I don't need you to get it. So I think there's also a part of me that just is, like, that's your own immaturity or your own fear of that. But it is my reality. So I don't. I don't know, it just kind of felt like I could. I feel like I, for the most part, could let that go. And I. It didn't really interfere.

John Dehlin [02:56:21] Nice. And then before we go to the second ceiling, whole issue, what did you experience about being a single working mom in Mormon church culture that you think is worth sharing?

Single Motherhood, Career, and the Church

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:56:38] Yeah. No. So this prompted actually a research study that I did that I've published on. On LDS women in conflict over their paid employment. And what I noticed is because I was a widow, everybody was supportive of me. And so I got a lot of great support from my church leaders, from my community people. So right after. So Isaac died in September. And I had already had some feelings that I wanted to go back to school, but I had a one and a half year old and a three year old. So I was like, when am I going to do a Ph.D. right? And so I thought, well, I want to go back to school. But I don't know that now is the right time. I don't think we have the money to do it. But when he died, I was like, there's no way I can do 40 hours a week of therapy while grieving. I was like, I do part time right now. I just knew, like, That's a lot of emotional stress. I just didn't feel like I could do that. And my plan had always kind of been to do private practice part time and then do adjunct teaching as what I thought I would do once my kids were in school.

John Dehlin [02:57:52] School.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:57:53] So that's how I would kind of work full time later on. And so I thought I should just go get my PhD now and become a professor, and then I'll be on the same schedule as my kids, and I can be a single parent and provide for them, and I also won't have to see clients. And that actually did end up being a really good decision. I did feel like I was starting to kind of slip into depression right before I started. And when I went there and I was with other adults and really intellectually stimulated, I was like, oh, this is so good for me. And I think part of it was the year after Isaac died. I was living in the shadow of our life.

Margi Dehlin [02:58:33] Right.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:58:33] I was doing the same job. It was every. It was our. It was our life, but without him.

Margi Dehlin [02:58:39] Yes.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:58:39] And when I went back to school, it was like I was figuring out what life was gonna look like for me as a widow. And so it was more, I think, embracing the reality and working with the reality versus. Yeah. Kind of living in the shadow of our old life. And so I think I forgot your question.

John Dehlin [02:59:05] Is it fair to say that you might not have pursued a PhD if he hadn't have died?

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:59:11] I don't think I would have pursued it that soon.

John Dehlin [02:59:13] Isn't that just like. We seek to avoid pain and difficulty? And I'm. I'm sure I would never ask you whether or not. I mean, you would trade. But, I mean, so often we want to avoid difficulty, but so often difficulty creates.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:59:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:59:33] You know, good. Good things can come.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [02:59:35] Yeah. Yeah. No, it is. It is interesting because it was such a good fit. I don't know that it. I can't say that it would have felt that way had he not died. Right. Like, I don't know, but that is a good question. It could have been different. I didn't know that the PhD was also, like, a paid or funded. It wasn't fully funded, but, like, mostly funded. I think I would have considered going back if had I known it would have been funded, but I didn't. I was never told that. So I think. Think I could have gone back sooner. It may have just took more effort, or it probably would have taken more desire on my part to have more conversations to find out the information I would have needed. Because to me it was financial, right. Like, how do I financially do that? But I think I, I think we could have. But I think I probably would have done it at some point. It just would have been, you know, a different point.

Margi Dehlin [03:00:30] That's right.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [03:00:31] But yeah, it is, it is a good question, you know. Yeah. But I think with the working thing, so I was gonna have to put my kids in daycare, right. And there was some like, you're gonna have to put them in daycare. And it's like, yeah, how do you think I'm, how do you think I'm gonna, How am I gonna go to school? I can't pay a babysitter every day. I'm literally going to school. I don't make that much money. I mean, I see some clients, but I can't see a lot of clients while I'm going to school. And it was funded, but it's not, it's like 20,000 a year. Right. It's not a full time payment or salary. And so. But people were really excited for me that I was going to do a PhD. I think in a lot of ways that probably was interpreted as like, oh, that's really resilient, that's really inspiring. Like, her husband died and now she's gonna do this. So I think a lot of people felt happy and excited and supportive. I also like, knew like I was living where my academic community was, right. So like my stake president had been my professor. So I also had a lot, I would say, like career support. I was in the community. I was like the first lds, sorry, lds, the first female LDS therapist in practice there in Lubbock. So I got a lot of referrals. So in that way I think I was well respected in the community. I think there was space in my family in my. On my dad's side of the family, there's actually quite a few doctors and PhDs, so quite educated on my dad's side of the family. So yeah, I think there's space for education in my family. Everybody has a bachelor's in my family. My mom has a bachelor's. So I think education wise, it didn't feel so far off. I do. I am the only girl to have a master's and a PhD in my family, but I have a cousin that has a PhD, so like, there are some other women in the family. So I actually felt a lot of support and. But there were those daycare comments, things like that kind of concerns. But that's what led me to do that study because I knew That I was being treated differently. Right. That because I was forced into this, I had people praising me for balancing all this as a single mom.

Margi Dehlin [03:02:46] Because it wasn't your choice.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [03:02:47] Because it wasn't my choice. And as I enrolled my kids in daycare, I saw that my kids had more people to love them and that daycare wasn't so scary. And I also saw that I was not a different mom. Yeah, I was the same me. I mean, obviously I was grieving and I had more on my plate, but I was like, oh, I, I am the same mom whether I work or I don't. Because I only worked like one or two days a week. Like, I, I was like a stay at home mom in many ways, making lots of home cooked meals and cleaning the house myself, things like that. When I only worked two days a week in private practice, I was like, oh, I'm the same. This literally is not different. People treat it like it's different, but it's not. Because motherhood's a relationship. Right.

John Dehlin [03:03:37] And so some women become better moms when they're working.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [03:03:41] Yes, some women, for sure. Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:03:43] Which I think some Mormons can't even imagine that being possible.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [03:03:47] But they need to ask their children. Yeah, they need to ask their children. Because I think sometimes when you're home a lot you think of more things to do at home and while you're there, you aren't always present. Right. I think it's a matter of presence. And every person probably has to do have a balance of responsibility that allows them to be most present in their relationships. And some people will never be present regardless of if they work or they don't.

Margi Dehlin [03:04:14] That's right.

John Dehlin [03:04:15] And also some people derive joy and meaning out of a professional life.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [03:04:20] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:04:20] And that's important to them.

Margi Dehlin [03:04:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:04:22] Or even essential for some.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [03:04:24] Yes, yes, absolutely.

John Dehlin [03:04:26] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:04:27] Okay.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [03:04:28] So, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:04:30] So excellent. Yeah. It sounds like in some ways you, you hit the church leader lottery in a positive way.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [03:04:37] Yes, very much so.

John Dehlin [03:04:38] You know, in Denton. So go, go Denton.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [03:04:41] No, it wasn't. It was Lubbock.

John Dehlin [03:04:42] Lubbock. Go Lubbock. Mormons.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [03:04:43] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:04:45] Mormon leaders. Yay.

Rebecca Lucero Jones [03:04:46] Yeah.

Closing Remarks and Donor Acknowledgment

John Dehlin [03:04:48] Hi, everyone, this is John. I hope you have enjoyed part one of our epic interview with Rebecca Lucero where she talks about becoming a Mormon widow show after having two children and what it was like to have her husband pass away after she had fought so hard to have her eternal marriage. Margi and I really love this interview and it was such a good interview that it went quite a bit longer than we were planning. And once it hit five, five and a half hours, we decided that it made most sense to split this episode into two parts. So obviously, you just listen to part one. We just want to make sure that you return for part two, because that's the main reason we did this interview. In part two, we're going to be discussing kind of more of the fallout in Rebecca's life after her Mormon husband passes away. And then we're going to be talking about how she falls in love and finds a second Mormon husband. And then the dilemma that she faces being sealed to her first husband, who passes away, but still being young and wanting to build a new life with her new husband, who she also wants to have children with. And then her dilemma of if she builds the rest of her life with her new husband, will she be sealed to her first husband? In the afterlife, can she be sealed to her second husband? What happens when she tries to apply for what's called a ceiling clearance, which would potentially allow her to be sealed to two men, just like Mormon men by default are able because of, you know, polygamy, Mormon men by default are able to be sealed to multiple women. What happens when a woman in the Mormon faith tries to get the same type of ceiling clearance that men get by default? And then, you know, she heals that all the way up to, you know, the first presidency of the Mormon Church. And then we'll find out what that decision was and then what the impact was and how that influenced her faith and her husband's faith and the rest of her life. So, again, hope you enjoyed today's episode. We want to thank all of our donors that make Mormon Stories possible. We couldn't do this without you, so thank you, donors. Please like and subscribe this channel. This episode. Please share it if you want. We love your feedback@mormonstoriesmail.com and please comment. And then finally, if you value this type of content and you want to see it continue and you're not currently a donor to the Open Stories foundation, we would invite you to become a donor super easy. You just go to MormonStories.org donate or go to MormonStories.org and click on the donate button at the top of the page. Sign up to become a monthly donor and we'll continue providing this type of content for as long as there's support for for it. But again, thanks for joining us today and please come right back for part two. I promise you you won't want to miss Rebecca Lucero's experience trying to get sealed to her second husband and trying to get a ceiling clearance. Thanks, everybody. See you again soon.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.