Introduction and Episode Overview

Part 1 of 3 · Ep. 1712

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host for today, John Dehlin. It is November 21st. We're almost at Thanksgiving in 2022, and we are so excited to have back with us for a epic long form Mormon Stories podcast interview. To have back Chanel Achenbach. Hey, Chanel.

Chanel Achenbach [00:00:21] Hello. How are you guys doing?

John Dehlin [00:00:23] Good. For those who've been following us recently, we had Chanel on our LDS discussion series where we talked about race and Mormonism. She joined us for part one of that, was kind of a special guest and people loved having her. We've had her back at least one or two other times as a panelist. She was recently on the discussion of gender with John Larsen.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:45] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:00:45] And just so many people have been like, more Chanel, more Chanel. So today we are going to be hearing Chanel's Mormon story. What would make a an African American, a black teenage girl in San Antonio, Texas, of all places? What would lead her to want to join the Mormon Church? A little bit of her background. She serves a mission. She'll be talking about that. She, you know, ended up pursuing Mormonism, trying to be a faithful, devout, happy Mormon. And then things got complicated. So we're going to be hearing her full Mormon story and, and joining me as shotgun riding shotgun is my brilliant, amazing partner, Margi Delin. Hey, Margi. Hey. You are also much loved these days. People are loving having you as co hosts.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:35] Oh, that is so lovely to hear.

John Dehlin [00:01:36] Yeah. So thanks for joining us.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:38] Oh, I feel like the luckiest. I'm glad to be here.

John Dehlin [00:01:41] Yeah. All right. So, Chanel, maybe sometimes people like to begin stating their intention. So oftentimes, if you talk openly and honestly about Mormonism, some believing orthodox members will just assume you're trying to hurt the church or criticize the church or tear down the church. If you just wanted to state up front your intentions for why you're coming on Mormon Stories podcast, what would those intentions be?

Chanel Achenbach [00:02:06] One of them is awareness. And surprisingly enough, another one is forgiveness in a passion for some, some members. And I think also I'm hoping in praying for change.

John Dehlin [00:02:25] You want some change?

Chanel Achenbach [00:02:26] I want change. It's necessary.

Chanel's Upbringing and Early Life

John Dehlin [00:02:30] Okay, well, let's jump in. So tell us about your upbringing and anything about your story that kind of, you feel like primed you to be open to those Mormon. I'm assuming Mormon missionaries knocked on your door. Maybe it was friends in high school, I'm not sure. But tell us about your upbringing. Anything that you think is important for your Mormon story.

Chanel Achenbach [00:02:54] Okay, so I'm from Texas, so that's a Bible belt. So everybody. Most everybody I knew was from some religious organization. So many. So it was kind of like Joseph Smith, where I was like, well, which one? Like, I come from a very religious background. My father was Catholic. My mother was Baptist. My uncle was Methodist preacher. So I was around a lot of religion. And all my friends were either Catholic or Baptist, and they all had different youth programs. So I was familiar with religion and wanted to be part of religion. Well, the thing that really got me searching and what happened was I had a car accident.

John Dehlin [00:03:37] Okay, wait, let me. Can I jump back? Just.

Chanel Achenbach [00:03:39] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:03:39] Okay. So you're. Were you raised by two parents? One parent?

Chanel Achenbach [00:03:43] Two parents. My mother, my father, my. So we went to church with my dad as a Catholic and went to church with my mom, Baptist.

John Dehlin [00:03:51] So you. So would you go to two. Two churches on Sunday or.

Chanel Achenbach [00:03:55] It was like. So sometimes we went to my dad's church, sometimes we went to my mom's church.

John Dehlin [00:03:59] Okay.

Chanel Achenbach [00:04:00] So we just. And sometimes we went to my uncle's church because he was a preacher. It was my mother's uncle. Uncle. He was a Methodist preacher. So we went to his church.

John Dehlin [00:04:09] And then. How many siblings did you have?

Chanel Achenbach [00:04:11] I have three sisters and a brother.

John Dehlin [00:04:14] Where are you in the birth order?

Chanel Achenbach [00:04:15] I'm the second.

John Dehlin [00:04:17] Second of five.

Chanel Achenbach [00:04:18] Second of four.

John Dehlin [00:04:19] Second of four. Okay. And were your parents from San Antonio as well?

Chanel Achenbach [00:04:23] So. Yes, they grew up in San Antonio. Both of them did, but my father, I think his family is originally from Louisiana.

John Dehlin [00:04:31] Okay. Okay. And so anything about just your family system kind of in your childhood years? That. That's interesting. Did both parents work? Was it a single. You know, was there a single income provider? Anything. Anything about just your family system?

Chanel Achenbach [00:04:49] I think that's important. My father worked. He worked for a phone company, Elluciant, which is AT and T. He did the fiber optics, and he was really into sports. He had played football. He sang. My mother was a seamstress, a really amazing one. I'm talking. All you need to do is send her a picture and she gets your measurements. And she made clothes. I mean, she was amazing. She made all my friends. Prom dresses. My prom dresses. Oh, yeah, she was really good. She can begin. She would upholstered couches. I mean, she was good. Phenomenal. So she stayed home. She was home. And my mom was always home, and my father sometimes had to work out of town. So that's how I grew up.

Growing Up in San Antonio

Margi Dehlin [00:05:37] I have a question. What was your experience with San Antonio like? Did you love living There, did you. What was your experience kind of as a particularly like a child and a teen? Was it a place that you felt safe? Was it a place that you. That felt like home? Was it a rough place for you for whatever reason? Like, how would you talk about that place?

Chanel Achenbach [00:06:00] I would talk about it as all of the above. It was all the above. Very festive. A lot of Latin influence. San Antonio is a Spanish name. Lot of Tex Mex food, a lot of Tex Mex speaking. A lot of diversity were near Lackland Air Force Base. So there's a lot of diversity. So we were around Asian people, black people, Hispanic. I mean, just any demographic of people you were around. So it was diverse and it was fun. It's just a fun city. The only thing I didn't like about it and why I'm not there, it is hot. It's hot and humid and I'm terrified of lizards and bugs, like big water bugs. I am terrified and I can't do it. I can't do the heat. And high crime. A lot of crime in San Antonio.

John Dehlin [00:07:02] So was it kind of a typical suburban kind of neighborhood?

Chanel Achenbach [00:07:08] So when we grew up it was more not. It was more lower middle class, so more around a lot of, I guess I could honestly say poverty. You know, those things that come with that. You know, worried about if your lights are on, worried about if you're going to eat, worrying about stuff like that.

John Dehlin [00:07:30] What do you mean worrying about if your lights are on?

Chanel Achenbach [00:07:32] So in, in my community and how I grew up, it, it was a struggle to make sure your lights are going to be on. San Antonio is a very hot. Oh, like power out, power outage, you know, just worrying about that.

John Dehlin [00:07:47] And growing up in Houston, if the air conditioner goes out in the summer, you could have heat stroke and potentially have life threatening kind of. Was it like that?

Chanel Achenbach [00:07:57] It was like that. And the thing about San Antonio, I don't think people realize is that your electric bill, like for your ac, the power bill is so high because it's so hot. And I mean, Utah, it was not a big deal. But to even, I mean, you had to choose between keeping your power on or paying your car or eating because it was just so high, you know, so if you get your lights turned off, you just lit some candles. That's just what you did. You just got used to it. It wasn't a big deal.

Margi Dehlin [00:08:26] So I'm curious too about your family culture. Like if you were to describe your family growing up, what it felt like being in your home and kind of what was important maybe to your family or what was taught by your parents, like, the values that they really felt like were. Were important. Do you have many memories about that? What would you say?

Chanel Achenbach [00:08:51] So my. My dad had passed away in 2018, and I remember when I got up to say some words about my father, my sister, my oldest sister, Lydia, she just shook her head and she's like. She's just like him. My dad is. Was very assertive, spoke his mind, said what he wanted to say. My mom is a peacemaker. She just wants everybody to get along. She wants everybody to be friendly. My father and I love people, but we were honest about what we didn't like. We were honest about setting boundaries and that that wasn't good for a lot of people. But I think that also made my dad very, very hard. Very intolerant sometimes of different things. Very religious person, intolerant of mistakes. Like, you didn't lie, you didn't steal, you didn't do those things. Because my dad wasn't having it. My mom was a peacemaker. She didn't care. She's just like, oh, just, you know, behave and just be polite. Just do what you're told. And she was more. My father was more strict. Like, it had to be clean to a T. I mean, if my family's watching this, my siblings will tell you. If you clean the bathroom, my father was the glove person, where he would go and touch the sink, and if there was residue, he'd make you clean the whole bathroom over the whole thing. My mother was opposite. She was like, trash it. I don't care. And so we grew up with two different types of parenting. But my father was out of town a lot, so we kind of. When dad was gone, we kind of just let loose and did what we wanted. But when dad was around, it was very, very, very, very strict.

Margi Dehlin [00:10:40] I'm okay. So to kind of build on that. What kind of girl were you like growing up? Do you remember what you loved to do, you know, how you felt? Just anything about you during kind of, yeah, the. Your kind of beginning grade school, even into middle school.

Chanel Achenbach [00:11:00] Funny. So, okay, me, I didn't like getting in trouble. I don't like consequences. I didn't like getting in trouble. I, you know, I knew spankings, grounding. I didn't like that. So I pretty much did what I was told to do. And I was terrified of God. Terrified. Like in the south, if you do that, God's going to get you. God's going to strike you down. And so I Was terrified. Terrified of God. And so did you pick that up

John Dehlin [00:11:28] at the churches you attended? The Catholic church? Doesn't seem to be. Or are they.

Chanel Achenbach [00:11:32] No, it was more my mom's side, the Baptist, you know, my aunties, my uncles, saying, you know, you're going to get in trouble. God is going to strike you down for saying that. But as a girl, I was. I pushed for answers all the time. I always, I want to know. You need to explain to me. I don't understand this. I was always asking questions, always told, be quiet, be quiet, be quiet. But I had a potty mouth. I've always had a potty mouth. And that was hard for people because I said what I wanted, and. Which is interesting, but I always said what I wanted. I. If I felt it, I said it. And I. And I asked questions. I pushed the envelope. I want to know, why did that happen? Why did he say that? Why did this happen? Why is this built A lot of why.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:16] I love that. So curious.

Chanel Achenbach [00:12:17] It sounds very much.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:18] And then also expressive, like, very much ardent.

Chanel Achenbach [00:12:22] Just. Yeah, ridiculously so.

Growing Up Black in a Predominantly White Church

John Dehlin [00:12:27] So one of the weird things about being raised Mormon, especially in Utah and Idaho, is you can. You can reach adulthood having never really known a person of color, a black person. I know that sounds ridiculous, but you. You get it probably, but here. Right.

Chanel Achenbach [00:12:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:44] So we. We generally can be just very insensitive to what it's like to grow up black in America. Right. And of course, you're just one experience and you know about what it's like to grow up where you lived in San Antonio. As. As a woman of color, is there anything you want to share about, like how growing up. Growing up as a black girl and woman in San Antonio would be different than growing up as a. As a white girl or boy in Idaho or Utah?

Chanel Achenbach [00:13:14] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:13:15] Anything worth sharing. I know you could talk for weeks about it. I'm sure.

Chanel Achenbach [00:13:19] I'm sure it's, well, us. One of the things that I think people don't realize, or maybe they do realize, black culture is very festive. Lots of parties, lots of dancing, lots of singing, lots of dance battles. I mean, that's what we did growing up, you know, and lots of, you know, joking, lots of, I'm a comedian. Watch me. You know, my parents would have parties, and that's what you did. And one of the things that is culturally, if you hear most black people, there are two things that are iconic with black culture is spades and dominoes. Those are huge. And if I meet a black person, I will judge them for not knowing how to play spades, I'm like, excuse me, you don't know how to play spades, you don't know how to play dominoes. That's fine, but excuse me, you don't play spades. Oh, my gosh, you're not black. And that is. It's huge. It's a big thing, and it's a fun thing because it's very competitive. Because with spades, you play with a partner. There's a person across from you that you're playing with, and there's the other two on that end that are playing. And that is a huge thing. Even at family get togethers and reunions, that was a thing. Who's playing spades? Who's gonna be whose partner? It's huge. It's a big deal. Dancing and spades and dominoes. Huge.

John Dehlin [00:14:35] Did you know that many Mormons grew up with a derivative of spades called rook? Have you ever heard of rook?

Chanel Achenbach [00:14:42] I've heard of rook, but I.

John Dehlin [00:14:44] So we were all taught that face cards were of the devil growing up. So in the 70s, 80s, 90s, 90s, face cards were bad. So, like an a believing faithful Mormon home would not have face cards in the entire house. So there's this game called rook, where there's four colors and then a rook card, which is like the ultimate trump, but you have to choose the color. That's the. That's the trump for the. For the hand, and you have a partner and you try and get points. Five point, 10 points, you know, that. That sort of thing. I love rook and I love spades, so let's play spades sometimes.

Chanel Achenbach [00:15:17] I would love to see that. That's a funny thing, is that was the thing that was hard for me. I. Wait, we can't play cards. I can't use face cards. They were like, don't you dare pull those out. And I was like, oh, darn it on, please.

John Dehlin [00:15:28] Culturally, that was significant.

Chanel Achenbach [00:15:29] Yeah, it was hard.

John Dehlin [00:15:30] Yeah, it was really hard.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:32] I love what you're describing too, because what I'm hearing on a level is this sense of gathering. You're gathering together, and it's light. It. There's like a lightness. There's joy, there's dancing, there's singing, there's, you know, playing games, as I would imagine, like, a reprieve to maybe the heaviness of the world, like a tradition of sort of this as a people coming together and offering something different, maybe some hope to an experience. Would you say that?

Chanel Achenbach [00:16:07] I would definitely say that. And the thing about it is. It's loud. But the loud is good. The loud is. It's. I mean, there was a game that the kids knew what was going on when this happened. Spades was one thing. Domino's is another thing. But when they played Bidwiz, oh, my gosh. That's when you heard the screaming, the swearing, the loudness. And all the kids would come running out of the room, because if it was my Aunt May and my dad and my uncles, and they were going at it, oh, my gosh, what was the game? It's called Bidwiz. So it's kind of like a bidding game. And they would. They would say these chant. They would swear, but they. You would. You knew what was going on when you'd hear who shit, and you're like, oh, my gosh, they're playing with. You would run down there because you know they're going to go at it now. You know, my father's, like, gonna tear it up with the cards. He's gonna smack him down. My aunt is gonna sit there, and it's my mother's aunt. And so you're just watching these adults go at it, and you're just sitting there watching, oh, my gosh, who's gonna win this game? And they're slapping cards, they're standing up, they're screaming, they're pointing, they're cracking up. And it's loud and it's fun, and it's gathering. And your cousins. After that's over, all the yelling's done. Then you go back to playing with the kids. And you're dancing, you're singing, you're having talent shows, you're having dance contests, dance battles. That's just how you grew up. That's what we did. And we ate a lot, a lot of great food.

John Dehlin [00:17:35] All right, name five of your favorite types of food growing up.

Chanel Achenbach [00:17:39] It was definitely my mother's cornbread stuffing. Cornbread stuffing is great. She would make something from Texas that I cannot find here. I make it a lot. It's carne guisara, not carne asada. Carne guisara is Tex Mex. It is basically stew meat with a little bit of Mexican spices and a little bit of heat and, like a brown gravy, and you put it in a flour tortilla, and it's really good. It's one of my favorite things. My mother also makes Spanish rice, which I love. Hers. Another thing is, mostly, probably, they call them tostadas here, but we call them chalupas. It's a hard shell with beans and lettuce and tomato. I mean, that was huge. And I'm a barbecue snob. I will judge the hell out of you. If you don't know how to cook brisket. That's a. That's. If you don't know how to cook brisket, I'm going to judge you. I am a barbecue snob. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:18:43] Do you have a favorite barbecue place now in Salt Lake or not?

Chanel Achenbach [00:18:46] Okay, there is one. It's called the Holy Grill.

John Dehlin [00:18:49] Where is that?

Chanel Achenbach [00:18:50] It is actually Bias Smiths and Pleasant Grove. Oh, Holy Grail, that is. I'm like, oh, my gosh. Finally. Finally, somebody knows how.

John Dehlin [00:19:00] And so what about rnrs? You've been rnrs.

Chanel Achenbach [00:19:02] RNRS is okay. I mean, it's fine.

John Dehlin [00:19:04] It's okay.

Chanel Achenbach [00:19:04] It's fine. But Holy Grill is good. Brisket is a hard thing to smoke. It's very hard. It's either too dry or undercooked, and I will snob you to death on it. But they also know how to cook chicken thighs. Chicken thighs is another thing that's hard to smoke because either they're too greasy and undercooked, or they're so dry and burnt. Holy Grill. They know how to cook food.

John Dehlin [00:19:27] All right.

Chanel Achenbach [00:19:28] They know how to barbecue.

John Dehlin [00:19:28] John, we got to check that out.

Margi Dehlin [00:19:30] Are you on it? It is good.

Chanel Achenbach [00:19:31] So good.

Margi Dehlin [00:19:32] You're speaking his language.

John Dehlin [00:19:33] Oh, yeah. I love barbecue. Yeah. So, okay, this question is impossible to do justice, but obviously, in the United States and in many places, there's a history of very significant. Well, there's a history of slavery, history of heavy discrimination, civil rights, and social justice around all sorts of different discriminated populations, but obviously African Americans. So is there anything you can share or want to share about how your family lived and experienced America with its past, with its history of past and

Experiences with Racism Growing Up

Margi Dehlin [00:20:12] present discrimination, its present kind of systems as well?

John Dehlin [00:20:17] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:17] Systemic racismic, racism still alive and well.

John Dehlin [00:20:20] Was that something that you thought about and talked about and lived with every day that you tried to ignore? What was that like?

Chanel Achenbach [00:20:27] So my mother, like I said, is a peacemaker. She didn't really talk about it. She just said, be careful. That was mostly what she said.

John Dehlin [00:20:33] Meaning what?

Chanel Achenbach [00:20:33] Just be aware of your surroundings. Don't cause trouble. Don't get any attention. My father, it was different for him, and I wonder if it was more different for him as a black man. He talked about it consistently because he was experiencing a lot of stuff at his job. It was really bad. And there were some legal things that ended up happening where his company got in trouble for some of the racism and systemic things that they were doing. And he would always. He was always talking to me. He's like, you have got to be careful. You have got to know that when you're around certain people, you need to listen. You need to observe. You need to pay attention to their body language. They might say they like you. Look at their face. What are they saying? What are they talking about? How are they treating you? And I remember I started dating a boy, and he was like, listen to me. You know, we. We're not racist. We have white ancestors. You know, my great grandpa's white. And so he was like, you need to be careful, because what's going to happen is when you're dating somebody from a different race, it's not even you and him. It's going to be you, him and his family. Doesn't matter how he feels. How does his family feel? I didn't care. I was like, no, it's just me and him. He's like, listen to me. You have to be careful. You don't understand. Just. If you think about it, my parents couldn't drink from the same fountain as the friends I have now. That was only, what, how many years ago? And I don't think people realize that My father. My mother. Couldn't go to the movies with your parents. Okay, so it was serious. My. My father talked to me about that, and he said, be careful. He says, chanel, what are you going to do? Be prepar. What are you going to do when you have a fight with this man and he calls you the N word? And I was like, he would never call me the N word. He's like, I am trying to teach you, child. I am telling you, you need to be careful. And I was like, okay, you know, like, what's the big deal? Because I didn't go through what he went through. Not yet. I didn't notice it. My friends, we played, but there was always things said. A lot of microaggressions. I remember saying, let's go inward knocking. And I was like, okay. Didn't think about what that meant.

John Dehlin [00:22:53] Oh, yeah, that.

Chanel Achenbach [00:22:54] That was huge.

John Dehlin [00:22:55] Going around and knocking on someone's door and running away. Yeah, I remember that.

Chanel Achenbach [00:22:59] And they would say that. I didn't. I didn't even think about it.

John Dehlin [00:23:01] You ever heard of. Yeah, yeah.

Chanel Achenbach [00:23:03] They would say, let's. We're going inward knocking. Or when we would do, you know, 1, 2, 3, 4, catch it inward by the toe. If he hollers, let him go. They would say that, you know, all of These things that were said, I never knew how bad they were. And to a person who was. There's a difference between racism and a difference between white supremacy. And most of these kids were just say insensitive things, but weren't intentionally trying to hurt. They weren't. It was more like ignorance. So they weren't trying to hurt. But nonetheless, it was. It was hurtful. But you just kind of like, okay, it's your friends, though. Your friends are allowed to say things because they're your friends. And I don't think people realize just trying to hide blackness. The. It was a couple of months ago, I typed in movies of the 80s. I was asking already, what was your favorite 80s movie? What was your favorite 80s movie? And people were listing their 80s movie. And so I typed in, I wanted to see the top 180 movies. Top 100 movies of the 80s. Do you know that black movies aren't listed?

John Dehlin [00:24:12] You're saying there's not one movie, there's

Chanel Achenbach [00:24:14] not one movie that was listed in movies from the 80s? I had to type in black movies of the 80s to get them to pop up. They weren't automatically listed. And I thought, okay, that's telling. Suppression of black movies and all. All of the movies I was mentioning, people hadn't seen them. They didn't even know what they were about.

John Dehlin [00:24:35] I'm trying to think. Like, I remember Eddie Murphy did 48 hours in Beverly Hills. Those were big.

Chanel Achenbach [00:24:40] Trading Places.

John Dehlin [00:24:42] Those are big.

Chanel Achenbach [00:24:42] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:43] But visibility overall, what I mean, is low, for sure.

Chanel Achenbach [00:24:47] I mean, there's movies that people never even heard of that were center around black, but it was around black Harm and Shame.

John Dehlin [00:24:54] Right.

Chanel Achenbach [00:24:55] And y. Yeah, I remember Glory. Oh, gosh, yeah. Deliverance. Glory.

John Dehlin [00:25:01] Yeah. Just trying to remember some of the movies I saw that were okay. So you're in your childhood playing with kids in the neighborhood, and in your middle school years, was it pretty interracial? Did you just have friends of all types?

Chanel Achenbach [00:25:19] So growing up, growing up, I mostly had Hispanic friends because that was mostly what was in San Antonio, around the schools I went to and black friends I didn't. And there was a few white. More white people as I got into high school. But, like, elementary, middle school, it was mostly Hispanic and black mostly, but not totally.

John Dehlin [00:25:48] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:49] And what was your kind of. What was your personality? Were you pretty extroverted? Were you introverted?

Chanel Achenbach [00:25:55] Like, what Were you loud, wild? You know, I think attention seeker? Like, look at me. Watch what I could do. I'm gonna do this. Am I funny? I thought I was a comedian. I really did. I thought I was Eddie Murphy, Richard Pryor. I thought I was all them. And I tried to be funny. I thought I was funny.

John Dehlin [00:26:16] What. What were your. Did you have hobbies or talents or pursuits that you were really into? Going into high school, I was in choir.

Chanel Achenbach [00:26:23] I love to sing.

John Dehlin [00:26:24] Ooh, what type of choir?

Chanel Achenbach [00:26:27] So I was in a few of them. There were show choir. There was ensembles. There was. You know, there's a group part, like quartets and different things. You know, I. I didn't know much about choir. I just grew up singing. My dad sang. My dad sang in a group, and so I like to sing. And then the singing went south when I started singing country because people weren't liking country, but that's what I like to sing. I like to sing the country songs.

Margi Dehlin [00:26:56] So.

John Dehlin [00:26:56] Okay. Were you a soprano or alto?

Chanel Achenbach [00:27:00] I can sing all four parts. I can do first and second soprano, first and second alto.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:05] Wow. Wow.

John Dehlin [00:27:07] Did you have any favorite, like, entertainers, like musicians growing up that you kind of modeled.

Chanel Achenbach [00:27:13] You know what growing up? I've always liked boys to men. I like Whitney Houston. I liked. Okay, so my sister teases me, but I had this mad fascination with Debbie Gibson. I don't know why, but I liked her voice, and I was obsessed with her.

John Dehlin [00:27:29] Was she. I think we're alone now. Is that her?

Chanel Achenbach [00:27:31] No, that was Tiffany.

John Dehlin [00:27:33] Tiffany.

Chanel Achenbach [00:27:33] Which one was Debbie Gibson sang Foolish Beat. She's saying Electric Youth. That's her. One of her famous songs. I just liked her because she wrote her own music. She was like Taylor Swift. She wrote her own music, she could play, and I just was obsessed with it. Okay, so I sing a lot of her songs, and she's a soprano.

John Dehlin [00:27:54] Okay. All right, so. So you joined the church when you were 18, the Mormon Church when you're 18. Is there anything you want to say about religion or your life in high school that kind of led to you even being open to Mormonism? Like, what did you. Had you heard of Mormons in high school or before? Did you know anything about them? Were you religious in other ways? Did you get. Did your life go wrong in some way that made you open to the message of the missionaries? Talk to us about what led to ultimately you taking the discussions.

First Encounters with Mormonism

Chanel Achenbach [00:28:34] Okay, so I was out pretty late with some friends at that time. There was a movie theater that was open till one, and so I was with a few friends. We were in a station wagon on 4:10. We were driving home, and I'm 4:11, so I'm short and I'm sitting In the front seat. There's probably, like four of us in the front seat and people in the back. And I don't want to put my seatbelt on. And I'm like, I'm not going to. I don't like seatbelts, and I'm not going to put it on. And we were driving down 4, 10, and I just had this feeling I needed to put on my seat belt, and I was like, I'm not putting it on. And I seriously thought. I don't know if I thought or it really happened, but I seriously thought. I heard a voice, kept saying, put on your seatbelt. Put on your seatbelt. Put on your seatbelt. And I'm like, I'm not going to put on my seatbelt. And I kid you not, right before we got hit, to this day, I believe that I heard a voice yell to me loudly, very aggressively, put on your seatbelt now. And I did. I just was, like, scared. And I put on my seatbelt, and we got hit. And so I went forward, I hit the dashboard. And I was in shock. Kind of got up, started walking around. EMS came, took us to the hospital. And I was laying there, and I thought, okay, if I wouldn't have put on my seatbelt, the EMS guy said I would have gone through the windshield, probably would have died. And then I thought, okay, what happens if I die? I mean, if I'm bad, I go to hell. What if I'm not bad and what's bad and what's good? And I didn't have any answers. So after that, I started asking my mom, I started asking my dad, I started asking my uncle. Oh, you know, you just, you know, just be good and got to take care of you. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. I want to know. I could have died that night. Do I transform into something and become reincarnated? Do I go to hell? Am I going to purgatory? I want to know. And everyone just kind of like, Chanel's asking questions again. And so I started asking my friends. I remember Patty. I asked her. She was really, really religious. She took me to church with her, and I was like, no, this is not working. So then I went to a church with my other friend, Marie, which was, like, my favorite person. And I went to her church, and they had a great youth group, and I went with her, and that was great, but nobody could answer my question. So then I started going to different churches with different friends that were different religions. Not one of them were the same religion. So then I started studying with Jehovah's Witnesses. Oh, yeah?

John Dehlin [00:31:10] How'd that happen?

Chanel Achenbach [00:31:11] That happened because I had questions and a friend said, hey, I have a friend that teaches about. You can learn about us. And I said, okay. So I, I, I went with her, I think about six months. And mostly, mostly because I had questions. But then it turned to my questions weren't being answered. But she gave me Doritos and Sprite, so I kept going to visit her.

John Dehlin [00:31:33] What age are you? At this point?

Chanel Achenbach [00:31:34] I was 18.

John Dehlin [00:31:36] Now, I don't know that this even matters, but my understanding was the Prince was Joe's Witness. Did you know that?

Chanel Achenbach [00:31:43] I heard Prince and also Michael Jackson's family.

John Dehlin [00:31:45] Yeah. Was that in any way influential?

Chanel Achenbach [00:31:47] No, I didn't, I didn't really know what it was. They would come to the house and knock on the door.

John Dehlin [00:31:52] Yeah.

Chanel Achenbach [00:31:52] You know, and as far as Mormons, I never heard of Mormons or missionaries or anything. I just remember I'd see kids on bikes and didn't really know what that was. I thought they were Jehovah's Witnesses. And when I realized what Mormons were, it was a commercial. It would say something about Jesus Christ and the nails in his hands and his feet and these two books and him being on the American continent. But I never called a number. I was like, that's another book. I can't do that. But what led me to finally meet the missionaries is my mother was meeting with them. She wanted to read the book and find out about it. I assumed that she was tailoring suits because they had suits. And I saw them in the house a few times, and I was just like, okay. And so I finally asked mom, who, who are those boys that you were talking to? She's like, they're Mormon missionaries. You should talk to them. I was like, what is that? And she's like, I don't know. They have that blue book. And I was like, well, do they have answers? And she's like, I think so. I don't know. Talk to them. And so she told them I wanted to talk to them. One day I was leaving and there was a knock on the door. And there, I barely opened the door, and I saw them. I was like, hi. And they're like, hi. Hey. Your mom said you had some questions for, for us. We're from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saint. We're missionaries. We teach about the church. We teach about the book. And I was like, okay. And they're like, okay, so listen. And this is what had me open the door. They said, you know, I don't know how you feel about the things that we're telling you, but you don't even have to believe us. You can ask God. God will tell you for sure if we're lying to you. And that impressed me because everybody else was just saying, this is what you need to do. Because I said so. And they said, no, you want to know for sure? God will tell you. He will answer you. There's a promise in at the end of our book that tells that God will answer you if you ask sincerely. So I was like, ask what? Come in. So I let him in, had my first discussion, and then I said, yeah, I'll take the rest of them. I'd like to know more about God, and I'd like to know. See, I didn't. I wasn't worried about religion. I wanted to know about God. Because if I died, I wanted to know, where was I going to go? I needed to know that. That was important to me. Well, they said, we know that we have the plan of salvation. We can explain that to you. And I was like, okay. So then I had the discussions. Things set okay with me, but to be honest, I liked them. I'm 18. They're cute.

John Dehlin [00:34:21] They're boys.

Chanel Achenbach [00:34:22] Yeah, they're boys.

John Dehlin [00:34:23] Okay.

Chanel Achenbach [00:34:23] They're cute.

John Dehlin [00:34:23] Do you know they're from Utah, Idaho.

Chanel Achenbach [00:34:26] One was from Utah and one was from California.

John Dehlin [00:34:28] Okay. And they were cute.

Chanel Achenbach [00:34:29] Very cute.

John Dehlin [00:34:30] American.

Chanel Achenbach [00:34:31] American boys. Cute boys. And they were nice and they were funny, and they were teaching me things that I thought were appropriate.

John Dehlin [00:34:38] Giving you answers to questions.

Chanel Achenbach [00:34:39] Giving me question. Answers to questions I had.

John Dehlin [00:34:42] Okay. So how long did you take the discussions? Do you remember?

Chanel Achenbach [00:34:46] I think there was six, maybe eight. And as soon as I was done, I had an interview with another person, another missionary, I think, maybe a zone leader, a district leader. And then I met with the bishop of the ward and then the ward mission leader and was love bomb, like crazy. I'm talking. I was all. All of a sudden, I wasn't just an ignored kid. I was now a kid worth something. A kid that was important because I was learning about God, you know, growing up. You know, my dad was out of town, My mom did her thing. We kind of just did our own thing. My aunties and uncles were doing their thing in different cities and different sides of the town. My friends were. I was graduated, so I was kind of like, I wanted to go to school and. And that didn't pan out. I wanted to, you know, write music and sing and do all that and that wasn't working out with the school I wanted to go to. And so I met these people in the church, and I'm serious. I told my parents I was getting baptized, and they weren't having it. So at my baptism, really quick, what

John Dehlin [00:35:53] was it like att the ward? You're saying that whatever San Antonio ward it would have been. What was the ward experience like prior to your baptism?

Chanel Achenbach [00:36:04] So, like I said, it was love bomb. A lot of people were giving me a lot of attention for showing up, for being there. And I was like, oh, my gosh,

John Dehlin [00:36:14] was it super white? Was it Hispanic?

Chanel Achenbach [00:36:16] It was mixed. It was white. And there was a few Hispanic families, but mostly white.

John Dehlin [00:36:22] Any. Any African Americans?

Chanel Achenbach [00:36:24] There was one lady. One lady, and she was. She was a lot older. And then there was a family. There was a married black family.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:33] Okay, and was that different than the congregations? Like your mom's congregation or your dad's?

Chanel Achenbach [00:36:40] Oh, way different.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:41] So.

Chanel Achenbach [00:36:41] Oh, my gosh. It was. Yeah, bizarre. Not bizarre, I guess, just like, it

John Dehlin [00:36:46] could have been appealing or it could have been scary.

Chanel Achenbach [00:36:49] It was just. I don't know how to describe. Was just not something I was used to. It was like, for example, somebody sang a song, and I went to clap, and they were like, no. And I was like, oh. Because in other churches and somebody sing, you clap. You know, there's music. You clap, and people are singing, you clap for them. And I was like, why wouldn't I clap for them? And they're like, you have to be reverent. And I was like, oh, okay. So I. I wouldn't. I was like, okay. And then there was no. Everything was just so quiet and just obey and quiet. And I was like, okay, okay. You know, but the congregation was huge. It was a huge ward that covered several different, like, far parts. It was a. San Antonio is a huge city. So this ward, some people Traveled an hour, 45 minutes, 30 minutes to get to church, you know, and so there was. There was a few Hispanic families, but mostly white.

John Dehlin [00:37:51] And when you say love bombed, what does that mean for people who don't know what that means?

Chanel Achenbach [00:37:55] That means that every time I walked in, it was, hey, how you doing? How you doing? How you doing? Oh, it's great. You're great. And I was like, oh, my gosh, these people like me. They know my name. And then it was, come over to our house, come eat. We're having this, we're having that. All these activities come to this. I was 18, so I didn't go into young women's but all these people were. Their kids were paying attention to me. They were paying attention to me. They were smiling at me. I was in trouble. And growing up in a black household, you're in trouble a lot. You don't even really know why sometimes, but it's stressful. And I know my parents are going through stuff from the outside world, and my dad dealing with racism and dealing with stuff he did, and then my aunties and their stuff, and it was like always, except for when we're playing games. It was sad. You know, these people weren't sad. They didn't seem sad. They were laughing and. But not loudly. They were. They seemed to be financially successful, which I wasn't around. You know, people I knew were struggling financially on a huge basis. And so these people, they didn't seem like they were struggling at all. They. They were dressed nice. They had nice cars, they had nice homes. So they were pulling me into their home on a pretty consistent basis.

John Dehlin [00:39:17] And I like that they made you feel loved.

Chanel Achenbach [00:39:20] They made me feel very loved. And not only they made me feel loved, they made me feel like I was part of their family. I mean, one family. I didn't have a car. I had a license, but they let me use their car. They trusted me in their house. They gave me their car keys. I wasn't trusted like that by anybody I knew. Not outside my home, definitely. I was just so shocked that people I didn't know were just like, hey, you use our car. Go do what you need to do. Come on over. Here's some food. I was like, why are they being so nice to me? Why are they so nice to me? I was puzzled but happy that they were being nice. That was a love bombing.

John Dehlin [00:40:00] Was there a YSA ward or singles ward that you would have attended prior to baptizing, getting baptized, or.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:06] No?

John Dehlin [00:40:06] No singles.

Chanel Achenbach [00:40:07] Nope. I didn't go to any of that. It was a home ward, the family ward.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:11] I'm interested. It is Texas, and I do think, you know, you're kind of speaking a little bit about home life stress, economic stress in particular, which I think is so important to highlight this idea of, like, did you feel like there was a bit of a prosperity gospel in the Mormon Church when you went, as opposed to, like, what you experienced in attributing it to the religion instead of perhaps race, like this fact that a lot of them were white, as opposed to the struggle and what it means to try to make a living and to try and have financial security amid systems that are basically built up around making that really hard for you? Like, do you feel like part of that attraction was hope?

Chanel Achenbach [00:41:04] Absolutely. And sort of I can be like them. They're showing me a blueprint of what I can be because I'm Mormon. These people are Mormon. Other people I know. And they told me that, they were like, okay, we are living this way because we pay tithing. That was, that was a big thing. We pay tithing. You're gonna do well if you pay 10%. And I was like, okay, I'm paying it. I, I want what you have. You're living a good life to what you're showing me. You have a good marriage. Everybody was cookie cutter. They had a husband and a wife and kids and a house and a car and jobs.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:44] Yeah.

Chanel Achenbach [00:41:44] But they were Mormon.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:45] That's right.

Chanel Achenbach [00:41:46] And that's what Mormonism. And they, they explain it to me. This is what Mormonism will give you. This is your life. If you're Mormon. If you're not Mormon, you will not get this.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:56] Yeah.

Chanel Achenbach [00:41:56] And it's mostly because you're paying 10%. And I was like, okay, easy, I'll do that.

John Dehlin [00:42:02] Kind of a prosperity gospel.

Chanel Achenbach [00:42:03] Oh, absolutely.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:04] So makes sense.

Learning About the Priesthood Ban on Black Members

John Dehlin [00:42:06] Okay, now, for those who don't know anything about Mormonism, if any of you are joining us, the Mormon church for 150 plus years excluded black people from, you know, what's called the priesthood or, you know, offices of male leadership in the church. And then we have these temple ceremonies that you do. And black families were kept out of the Mormon temples for over 150 years. And it wasn't until 1978 where that. Where the church changed and allowed black members to be in full fellowship. Did you know anything about that history? Was it ever discussed prior to your baptism? Did you have any of that knowledge when you were investigating the church?

Chanel Achenbach [00:42:56] Not a chance. Race was not brought up at all as far as the priesthood ban. Curse of Cain, Mark of Cain. Nothing was brought up. No priesthood ban, no temple. All I know is they were saying, you go to the temple, but nothing to the fact that had my parents joined before 1978, they wouldn't have been able to take us there. We wouldn't have been sold out as a family. They wouldn't have been able to go to temple. None of that was discussed with me at all.

John Dehlin [00:43:27] Wow. So. And then, you know, that's surprising. But then also, as word gets around with your parents, it may be that your parents or friends of your parents or other members of your community, aunts, might have known that the Mormon Church had or has A racist past and even a racist present. Did nobody speak out and let you know?

Chanel Achenbach [00:43:54] Oh, they did.

John Dehlin [00:43:55] Before your baptism.

Chanel Achenbach [00:43:56] Yes, but not about. Not necessarily about the priesthood ban. What they did do, my mother, for good concern, a very religious person was concerned, so was my father. So what they did do is have my uncle come talk to me, which was my mother's uncle, a Methodist preacher. And I remember we were all around. It was my mom, my uncle, maybe some cousins, I don't remember. And he was like, you understand you cannot join that church. And it wasn't more about the race. He didn't know about the priesthood ban. I don't believe that he knew about the Book of Mormon. He was upset about that.

John Dehlin [00:44:30] What about it?

Chanel Achenbach [00:44:30] He said it wasn't true. It was not. It was a Joseph Smith book, but it was not a God book. And that I could not read that book. That. That was the thing that was going to take me to hell is reading a book that a bunch of people wrote to go against God's book. And that was not something I needed to do or be a part of.

John Dehlin [00:44:48] Okay, so the concern was that Joseph Smith produced a book other than the Bible.

Chanel Achenbach [00:44:54] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:44:55] That was seen as blasphemy by your author?

Chanel Achenbach [00:44:57] Absolutely, yes.

John Dehlin [00:44:59] Okay.

Chanel Achenbach [00:44:59] He was like, no, that is, if you join for any other reasons, if they didn't have that book, we wouldn't care. That book is damning. You cannot read that book.

John Dehlin [00:45:08] So how did you deal with that?

Chanel Achenbach [00:45:10] I was, of course. You don't tell me what to do. I'm 18. These people are good. How could good people produce an evil book? That doesn't make sense. And I started quoting to him. By their fruit, you shall know them, Their fruits are their nice. So how could the book be evil if they're nice? Well, then no one said anything. And I said, well, see, there you go.

John Dehlin [00:45:30] And did you. Did the missionaries encourage you to read the Book of Mormon? And if always. What was your impression of the book?

Margi Dehlin [00:45:38] Well,

Chanel Achenbach [00:45:42] I didn't like it. I like them. I like that they said families could be together forever. I like the social part of the church. I didn't like the doctrine. I didn't. I didn't believe it. I thought Joseph Smith was cool because I, I related to the fact that he was asking questions. He said that he was going around asking which church is true and went to all these churches and none were true because that's what I was doing. So I related to him. And he was young. I was 18. He was what, 14? So I was like, I Get Joseph Smith. I know what it's like to want to know the truth and which one God wants you. So I never believed the book, but I believed in apostles and prophets and they claim to have them on earth. So I was like, wait a minute, is that true? Wait, do they really talk to God? There's somebody talking to God right now. I don't care what their book says. I don't have to read the book. And that's what I thought.

John Dehlin [00:46:46] Interesting.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:48] Did you ever pray to know if it was true and if so, what was your experience with that?

Chanel Achenbach [00:46:55] So, honestly, at the point where they challenged me to read it to know if it was true, I did. I read that whole thing because I like to read. I didn't feel it. I wanted to. And I was so mad at myself that I really just started like trying. I'm like, God, you have to come here right now. You have to show me why it's true. I don't believe this. I don't believe that is true. And you have to help me. You have to convince me. Please convince me. Because if you don't, they're going to be mad at me. You know, these are my friends, these are my new people. I don't want them to think that I don't believe it. I don't want to tell them that I don't believe it. And I liked everything else but the Book of Mormon I liked. But then they would say these things and then I would feel so guilty. It's the cornerstone. Without the Book of Mormon, we have no religion. So then I'd feel guilty, like, oh, gosh, you, you don't want it to be true. I would tell myself, you just don't want it to be true. You're just, you're just letting your uncle talk to you and tell you that it's not true. And it's an ev book. That's your problem. So I kept reading it. I just kept reading it and kept reading it. Just didn't. I. I wanted to so bad though. I did.

John Dehlin [00:48:07] Sounds like you kind of had a social conversion where you were converted to the social aspects of the church mostly, is that fair to say? Plus the doctrine of modern day prophets.

Chanel Achenbach [00:48:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:17] And then just somebody saying they had answers made, maybe made you feel like, whoa, these guys have the answers.

Chanel Achenbach [00:48:24] The claim, the claim was very powerful to me. How dare you claim that. You're talking to God and Jesus Christ. I'm talking to you. Then you, you are bold to claim that in this climate. Oh, I'm definitely joining Your church, you know, And I liked Doctrine and Covenants, but I just couldn't get into the Book of Mormon or the other one, the Pearl of great price. I couldn't do it. But I like Doctrine Covenants because it was Joseph Smith that I feel I can relate with writing.

John Dehlin [00:48:54] Do you remember the passages in the Book of Mormon where it said that God cursed Lamanites with dark skin because of their wickedness and to make them loathsome to the white Nephites in the Book of Mormon? Do you remember reading those teachings and do you remember how you processed them as a black woman?

Chanel Achenbach [00:49:16] I didn't like it. So I asked members, I started asking questions and they would just tell me, hey, there's a lot of things we don't understand. This is God's word. And they would sidestep with, hey Chanel, it's either true or it's not, right? So if there's things about a pie you don't like, you don't throw away the whole pie, right? You just take the piece out of it that is not desirable. But the whole pie is beautiful and it tastes good, right? And I was like, yeah. And they said, we don't understand why God had this there. We don't, we don't know. And I accepted that because again, they were nice. They smiled at me, they treated me good, they said they love me. So I said fine. They said, look at the whole Book of Mormon. That is one of a few passages that say some things that are uncomfortable. So what, what about the rest of it you're going to focus on? You're going to let this one little passage affect our, all of the other stories. And I was like, no, you're right. And God hasn't answered me and he'll answer me in the afterlife. So okay, that's fine.

John Dehlin [00:50:18] You know, I, early in my Mormon stories time, I remember interviewing a guy named Darren Smith and he's a, he's a black Mormon and ex Mormon now. And I was just stunned by the fact that any person of color would ever convert to this church knowing what was in the Book of Mormon or you know, its racist past. And he was the first one to sort of say you don't understand what it's like to be black in America because in some sense we're always picking up the scraps, we're always discriminated against. So like if we, if we held out for a non racist church there, there'd be no church.

Chanel Achenbach [00:50:58] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:50:58] And so that, that shifted my brain because if you always are Having to just take what you can get. Then it, then, then I could see why that history of institutional racism and Mormonism would be just one of many things you'd be considering because there were a lot of things that were really important to you, like having a good family, being economically successful, thriving and like, okay, the church had racism, has a little racism in this book, or had some really racist things 10 or 20 or 30 years ago. Who didn't? Like how's this going to help me now? Is. I don't mean to put words into your experience, but that's it. But that's what you know, Darren told

Chanel Achenbach [00:51:40] me that's what you have to do. You have to think, okay, so this is the best way I can describe it. If someone tells you I'm going to kill you today, you get to choose which weapon. I am either going to stab you, I'm going to shoot you, I'm going to set you on fire, I'm going to drown you. But you have to pick one, same thing. It's going to happen. You want to be part of a religion and they all have this in it because this is the foundation of America. I just didn't know at the time how bad, how significant.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:23] Yeah, that's powerful.

John Dehlin [00:52:26] So you know, we can get to this. But like looking back, do you feel like you, you were misled or that important information was withheld for you that you wish you had been told by the missionaries and members at the time?

Chanel Achenbach [00:52:39] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:52:40] Okay, yeah, yeah, at the time. Could there have been things they said to you that would have dissuaded you or were you just so socially converted it almost didn't matter what anyone said,

Chanel Achenbach [00:52:54] that would have mattered up front because I'm just now getting into it. That would have gotten my attention. A passage, not so much, but to know about the temple and the priesthood ban, that's huge. That's not just a passage. That is a. You're telling a whole group of people that they can't be in the temple, why everybody else can. That's important. And not only that, also the pre existence being valiant in the pre existence, I needed to know that that's what church leaders were teaching about black people.

John Dehlin [00:53:30] That's important for those who don't know. What did the church teach about black people?

Chanel Achenbach [00:53:34] So taught that in the pre existence that the reason why we're having struggles now as black people and the reason why our skin is dark is because we were cursed and marked because of the choices we made in the pre existence.

John Dehlin [00:53:48] So as spirit children before any of us were came to this earth. Mormon theology is we're all spirits before we were came to this earth as spiritual children of heavenly Father and mother. And there are these councils of spirits in heaven in the pre existence where like it was discussed the right plan for earth and what was taught.

Chanel Achenbach [00:54:10] So the thing that was taught that. So I have to tell how I first found out about it because I think that's important. I had got invited to a member's home and the funny thing is I have pictures of that day. I still have those pictures 30 years ago. And we were all having fun. Some missionaries were there. Actually the missionaries that taught me were there. And we were laughing, we were playing, we were eating. It was a big family, was a big, a big area. And we were all just kind of talking. And it was the weirdest thing because the host started telling black jokes. And I was like that is so weird. Why is she telling me black jokes? But I laughed. Everybody was watching me. I was the only black person there and I just laughed. I was like that's funny. Oh my God, it's so funny. I didn't. What? I didn't know what to do. And then she says, just out of the blue, no prompting, she says okay, did you know that black people are cursed? Just like that. And I went what? With what? Like, like a disease. And she's like no, no, no, listen, black people are cursed. And I said what do you mean? She said oh, do you know what happened in the pre existence? And I said no. She's like okay, so I'm going to tell you. And I can feel the information she's trying to give me. I didn't feel like she was trying to harm me at all. I felt she wanted me to know. She's like okay, so this is what happens. So you know, in the beginning, you know, we were all spirit children. We were with Heavenly Father, there was Jesus Christ, there was Satan. You know how he took a third of people with him? I said yeah. She said, and then Satan took a third, the host of heaven with them. And then the rest of us went with God and Jesus Christ, but not black people. And I went wait, what? And she said well in the pre existence black people weren't valiant. And I said valiant? She said, and they were fence sitters. And I said what do you mean? Like sitting on the fence? Like I don't understand. She said listen, this is what happened. So when Jesus Christ was giving his plan and Satan was given his plan, you didn't choose either one you kind of wanted to come down here, get your body and see who would win the war and then you would choose then. And so you were punished for that. But the good thing is you're here now. You're baptized and now you can prove yourself. So you get your body. You live a good life. Now remember, it's going to be hard because of your decision. Your lot in life is going to be really hard. But you chose that. You knew that you have a veil put over you. You won't remember, but you guys made these choices. You accepted this as part of the plan. You wanted to be black. You chose to be black. You chose this trial because you knew you can endure and you knew that you were going to be reward it in the hereafter.

John Dehlin [00:56:59] Not just that, but you were a fence sitter. You weren't valiant. And so it's almost like you're black because you were lazy or indecisive.

Chanel Achenbach [00:57:07] But that's what she said in the pre existence and I said, okay. But she, she said this was her face. She said, but you're baptized now. You can prove yourself. You can endure. You will be great. Hustle, hustle, hustle. Yeah, you will be so great. You will be forgiven. Now it's going to be hard. And you chose this trial. You chose this trial.

John Dehlin [00:57:28] It's all your fault.

Chanel Achenbach [00:57:29] You chose it, so don't complain about it. And I was like, okay, okay, what do I do? She said, you did the first step. You got baptized. And I was like, I know, I did. I did. I was so excited to prove myself. At first I was offended and like, what? No, I, I couldn't have been bad. I, I, no, no, I follow rules. I, I do what I'm told. And then she told me that and I said, okay. When she said, you, you can fix it though, I was so happy. You can fix it.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:59] Wow. Wow.

Chanel Achenbach [00:58:04] Everybody else was around. Nobody stepped in and said, she's lying or they were looking at me all, see, you're here now and you're gonna, you're baptized and we're here to help you and we're here to push you. And I was like, yes, I have a team. I have support. I'm on this team now and I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do, I'm gonna be the best, the best one ever. I'm even going to be a missionary because this and that, they're like, yeah, yeah. And I'm like, okay, you just watch. I'm gonna get back there. And I'm saying, I endured. I did all of that, and he's going to be so happy with me.

John Dehlin [00:58:36] And for those who don't know, this teaching that Chanel just laid out was Mormon doctrine for well over a hundred years, starting with maybe with Joseph Smith, probably Joseph Smith, but definitely with Brigham Young, all the way through the 2000s and 2000s, until the church finally issued a gospel topics essay where they sort of said, well, that wasn't doctrine. Those were the teachings of men. Which was not true, right?

Chanel Achenbach [00:59:03] Not true at all. Yeah, not even close.

John Dehlin [00:59:06] Because first presidencies, Mormon first presidencies signed statements of these teachings as doctrine, right?

Chanel Achenbach [00:59:12] Yes. And made it a stamp to say, excuse me, this is doctrine. They made that very clear. Don't even question. This is doctrine.

John Dehlin [00:59:22] Yeah, yeah. I'm so sorry.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:26] Yeah. Honestly, it's like at the. At such a basic level, it is so like, you cannot trust who you are. So hustle and work really hard, and we've got you, and you're saved because of us, and, you know, continue on. But, like, also, it's sort of like they give you this identity, this past that you never asked for that's, like, deeply problematic. And then your charge is to spend your whole life trying to prove.

Chanel Achenbach [00:59:54] Trying to catch up.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:56] It's so insidious.

John Dehlin [00:59:57] It's almost like they're inoculating you as well for the racism you're likely going to experience within Mormonism. Because they're basically saying, well, it's going to be super hard for you in this church, but it's your fault.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:09] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:00:10] You did it to yourself.

Chanel Achenbach [01:00:11] You chose it.

John Dehlin [01:00:12] If you work really. You chose it. And if you work really hard, you can endure the racism that we're about to put you through, but never rest.

Chanel Achenbach [01:00:18] Exactly.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:18] Like, you will never rest.

Chanel Achenbach [01:00:19] I am serious. Looking back. Sorry, just looking back. Wow. I was so eager to please. I was so happy that I was being loved, that they could have told me I was a serial killer, but I could be redeemed. That was a thing that I can be redeemed for being so bad and so wicked and so awful. But you can be redeemed.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:58] You are.

Chanel Achenbach [01:00:58] You're a serial killer. You're a terrible person. But guess what? You can be forgiven for that.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:06] And guess what? Like, it's like redemption is serving us. It's us using your labor, us getting your money, and that's your redemption. You know, we want your free service. We want you showing up.

John Dehlin [01:01:18] Your obedience, right?

Margi Dehlin [01:01:19] Yep. We want your obedience. We want your time, we want your Resources. And that is the recipe for your redemption.

John Dehlin [01:01:28] Also, for the church to dismiss or get rid of the perception that it's racist, it needs black members to say, this church is awesome. So it also needs kind of your pr like, it needs your testimony and your reputation that the church is actually good for black people, right?

Chanel Achenbach [01:01:50] Oh, yes. And I gave it to them. I did PR for them on my mission. I was on a panel discussion with a bunch of different religious leaders, and I said exactly what they wanted me to say, even though I had just gotten into it with an elder in my mission. He was not good. It was really racist a thing he had said to me. And I still remember this day what I did to him because of what he said to me. We were at a Brahms ice cream in Bartlesville, Oklahoma. I grabbed his ice cream and I licked it. And I said, when you lick this now, you're going to be black, and you'll receive all of the stuff I'm receiving. I was so mad.

John Dehlin [01:02:31] But what led you to want to do that? Well, back up.

Chanel Achenbach [01:02:33] He was saying, so you were.

John Dehlin [01:02:35] You were at an ice cream store with some machines.

Chanel Achenbach [01:02:36] We were on P day. We were at Brahms in Bartlesville, Oklahoma. And he was saying some really dumb things, and they were racist. And I'm just looking at everyone like, you're not going to say anything. You're not going to say anything. And they were like, sisters, don't. Contention is of devil. And I'm like, then I'm evil, but this is okay. This is not okay. So I remember they freaked out because I grabbed his hand, and they're like, you can't touch him. I grabbed his hand and he was really tall. I pulled down the ice cream and I licked it. And I told him, you lick it now. You're going to be black. You're going to receive everything I received. Because he was like, well, the thing about black people, because he was teaching somebody and he was like, well, they're not going to be worthy because this. And, well, their family life is like this. And they're just so violent and they're so this. And I was like, black people are like that. I'm here. Am I like that? Yeah, we're not talking about you, sister. And I was just like, what is your problem? And he was just saying these really

John Dehlin [01:03:35] kind of perpetuating racial stereotypes.

Chanel Achenbach [01:03:37] Oh, my gosh. It was terrible. And I was getting really mad. Spirit of contention. He was bringing contention by the things that he was saying. And one of them was really upset because his sister had had a baby with a black man that wasn't supporting her. And he was going off, and I was like, okay, I'm not doing this. I don't need to hear this. Well, this is how black people are. They are never committed. They're not committed to anything. Look what they did in the pre. Existence. And I was like, all right, that's it. And then I just started saying things. I was really upset because nobody was defending me. No one was saying, hey, this is not okay. They're like, just. Just be quiet. Why do I have to be quiet? Just be quiet. Just let it go. Why do I have to let it go? This is wrong. This is wrong. You know? And then people come to me after. It's like, yeah, you're right. Well, why didn't you say anything to him? Why did I have to fight for myself by myself?

Margi Dehlin [01:04:29] Yeah. And this was on your mission? Did you say that you. You kind of came alive in this way?

Chanel Achenbach [01:04:33] My mission was the worst as far as racism. And because it was in Arkansas, Missouri, Oklahoma, and Kansas, it was the members and my mission companions saw that, and they were just like. I'm like, she just called me an N word. She just called me a coon. And she's like, just stop.

John Dehlin [01:04:57] Members of Mormon Church called you the N word.

Chanel Achenbach [01:05:00] Call me coon. I remember she kept calling me coon and was laughing about it. And I was like. And my companion was like, just, wow. Don't say anything. I'm like, because we are told in our mission, whatever the members give you to eat, you eat it, you drink it. You don't question what they give you. It's offensive. And don't fight with the members because, you know, if they say stuff or they do things, you don't question them. You don't challenge them. You just keep the spirit. But in front of my companion, I'm sitting there. It's not like it was a conversation, and it slipped out directly saying things to me on purpose. And I'm sitting there taking these words and looking at my companion like. She says nothing. Nothing. But to just take it.

Baptism and Joining the Church

John Dehlin [01:05:51] I want to come back to your mission, but we. We passed over your actual baptism.

Chanel Achenbach [01:05:56] And I'm sorry.

John Dehlin [01:05:58] Maybe. Maybe not. But I do want to cover a few things before your mission. So when you come back to your family and you say you're going to get baptized after they had expressed concerns, what was it like to tell your parents, your siblings, your aunts, uncle, whoever, that you were going to get baptized? And what. What was that?

Chanel Achenbach [01:06:19] Like, I think I'm so glad you came back to that, because I think there's two important things about my baptism that's really important is my family wasn't having it. They were really scared for me, and they were really not supporting that at all. They didn't want me to do it. They were like, don't do this, Chanel. Don't do it. Don't do it. And then I told some friends there was an older couple I was babysitting for. I told them, and they were just like, nope, don't do it. And to tell you how serious I took the baptism, I think this is very important. Very telling. I had on white shorts and, like, a sweatshirt, and I was playing football with my friends right before the missionaries picked me up to get baptized. So I didn't understand the significance or the sacredness of how important it was supposed to be. I was just getting baptized. There was two missionaries picking me up because nobody would take me. And at that time, I didn't have a car. And I went and got baptized. I'm sure the members had a fit, but nobody made me feel uncomfortable at that time. I had short shorts on. White shorts. It was a blue and white striped sweatshirt. And I had a football. I was playing football.

John Dehlin [01:07:34] So you weren't wearing some type of white dress when you got baptized?

Chanel Achenbach [01:07:37] When I. When I actually got into the water and got baptized, somebody had a white dress ready for me.

John Dehlin [01:07:41] Okay.

Chanel Achenbach [01:07:42] But I showed up. I didn't show up in a nice dress. Most people show up in a nice dress or a suit. I showed up in short shorts and a sweatshirt after playing football. Kind of sweaty. Yeah, I did.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:52] Yeah.

Chanel Achenbach [01:07:53] They probably thought this uncultured kid. I didn't know. Nobody said, you need to dress up. It's a baptism. I've gone to baptisms. People wore shorts. I didn't think anything about it.

John Dehlin [01:08:04] Did family come and attend your baptism?

Chanel Achenbach [01:08:07] No, nobody. Just me and the ward. That's why I'm saying I imprinted on them. They were all there. I come out of the water, and I see this huge room full of people looking at me, happy, smiling, crying for me, for something I did. So, yeah, I was going to be loyal to them.

John Dehlin [01:08:33] Some were crying. Some of the.

Chanel Achenbach [01:08:34] Yeah, people were crying and happy and. And there was the ward mission leader who became one of my closest friends, him and his wife and their family. There was other people. I mean, I was looking at this room full of people that were nodding their head like, you did good. You did good. I did good. Okay. Good. I'll keep doing good.

John Dehlin [01:08:58] I imagine that felt amazing.

Chanel Achenbach [01:08:59] Absolutely amazing. I mean, I love my family, but our family was hard, you know, my mom was home. My father was gone on road trips for his job. My aunties and uncles were all over the place. My cousins were doing their thing. I didn't have any of support. I wasn't talking to anybody. I wasn't hanging out with anybody. And these people were like, oh, we love you. What. What can we do for you? Is there anything you need? I was like, what, me? You can do something for me. I want to drink at Sonic. Okay. What? I'm 18 and I'm. I'm still kind of young minded. I'm not adult minded. I'm 18 and kind of like testing the waters. Like they're being. Why are they being nice to me? People aren't nice. San Antonio is a high crime place. There's a lot of fight. I got in lots of fights in middle school. Lots of fights, physical fights. And so these people aren't fighting. They're not swearing, they're not hitting people. They're not gonna beat me or hit me. I'm joining them. I'm hanging out with them.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:15] Yeah. I think it's so important to highlight this idea of. Particularly with populations that feel unsafe perpetually. So that could be because of where you live. That could be, you know, if you're a marginalized human being or how do you overstate what it means if you walk through the world where so much of your experience you're feeling unsafe to then shift to a place where you do feel safety and you do feel a sense of belonging? It just makes all the sense in the world why that would be moving, attractive, you know, something that you really, really have looked for, like, looked to. Yeah.

Chanel Achenbach [01:10:59] Well, what does love finally look like? It looks like people smiling at you. It looks like people hugging you. I didn't grow up like that. I have good family. Don't. Don't misunderstand that. But my aunties weren't my uncles and my cousins. They weren't huggy. And you didn't say, I love you. You had to be strong. I mean, think about black culture. You have to be strong. I am so sick of that. I don't want to be a strong black woman. I'm tired of hearing I'm strong. I don't want to be strong. I just want to live. And you have to think about that. I saw my aunties and my uncles go through. Through hell and always having to fight and be strong. So Now I'm in an environment where I'm not having to fight and I can just be. And people are hugging and shaking each other's hand and, oh, okay, I'm definitely joining that. I'm definitely going to be in that environment.

John Dehlin [01:11:57] What was it like being embraced by a predominantly white community? Because you're saying your high school was mostly Hispanics and black people. You know, you. You lived in a part of town that probably was not predominantly white. What was it like to have this large group of white people in suits and ties and dresses embracing you and asking you if they could do things for you and crying for you?

Chanel Achenbach [01:12:19] Exactly. It was hope. It was like, hey, guess what? We're gonna model the life you want. You want this life? Okay, this is how you get it. This is me, this is my wife. These are my children. This is our house. You can be like this too, because this means you're going to be happy. This means you're not going to struggle. This means that things will be better for you. You know, you're going to have lots of friendships. And they kept saying over and over, you have to come to church. And the reason why you have to come to church is because you need to be around other people that think like you. You need to be around other people that are celebrating God the way we need to, the correct way, with authority. Authority was huge. They kept saying, authority. We have the authority. We have the right authority to bestow the Holy Ghost upon you. We have the right authority to tell you what you should be doing. Nobody else has that. We are the only true church on this earth. Do you know what that means? That means whatever Jesus Christ had back then, we have it now in this church. They made those claims very, very boldly. And I thought, being scared of God, they weren't struck down, so they couldn't have been lying. Because I was taught that if you lie and you blasphemy against God and say you make a claim, God is going to strike you down. That's what I learned growing up. They weren't struck down, and they were saying they talk directly to God and that he gave them the authority to teach these things. So I'm going to listen. I'm. I don't always agree. I don't really know what they're saying, but they're not struck down, so they're telling the truth.

Ward Life and Preparing for a Mission

John Dehlin [01:14:08] So any stories about being Mormon in your ward prior to your mission and what kind of got you on the mission ultimately? Was it prior to your mission, was your Sunday ward Experience positive. Did people's behavior of you change after you got baptized? And what was it like being a Mormon prior to your mission?

Margi Dehlin [01:14:30] Yeah, like were you still love bombed? Did you still experience like a lot of love? That's.

Chanel Achenbach [01:14:35] Yeah, that's one of the most reasons why I went on my mission is because they talked about missionary work. And that's what I was used for, is missionary work. That's what I was used for is to my testimony, I'm a black person saying that the church is wonderful. Look at me, me, I didn't know about that, all that other stuff yet. And look at me. Even though I heard that at that party, it was kind of no, remember, just don't focus on that, focus on everything else, okay? And I did. And so remember. So now I'm isolated. I'm starting to be isolated from friends. They don't believe like you. They don't have the authority. You got to come with us, you know, your family, you can love them and we're going to show you how. You come here, you learn from us, and then you can give them the gospel and then they'll convert. Okay, but you can't be in that and convert them. You need to come here. And I was like, okay. So I spent a lot of time in their homes. I spent the night, I babysat their kids, I cleaned their house. You know, I, I did those things and I was only around them, only around Mormons, you know, these Mormon families. And like I said, my family did think that was weird. They're like, why are you spending a night? I'm like, I don't know, it's nice over there. And I would, would leave. I was 18. It's not like they could tell me I couldn't. So I would just go over there and like I said, watch their kids, clean their house, help them with things. And in return, they were loving, they were fun and, you know, calm. And I grew up around a lot of violence, a lot of physical and verbal violence. None of them were like that, not in front of me. So why would I, why wouldn't I want to be around that? The kids seem happy. They had toys, they had things I didn't have in my house, you know. And growing up in Texas, I don't know about you, but in Texas, in communities, a sign of wealth and prestige was two story homes or a pool. Well, some had pools and some had two story homes and then some had massive homes. And so that is a sign that you're doing good by God is what you Had. It was always about money in class.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:57] Wow.

Chanel Achenbach [01:16:59] And I didn't want to be. I wanted to be around that. And so they would tell me, you know, you got a good testimony. They only patted me on the back when I bore my testimony with, you know, a bonfire of a testimony or when I was teaching other people, you know, ward missionary, nursery leader, nothing else. And, you know, growing up, you're shushed a lot to just do what you're told, be quiet. You don't talk back to your parents. You don't talk to. Spoken to. Well, now they're asking me to speak. I have these people now valuing or seeming to value my voice, but only if it was about certain things. If it was about missionary work, then they wanted me to talk, but if it was asking questions about the doctrine or the gospel, it was a no.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:50] That conditioning kicks in.

Chanel Achenbach [01:17:52] So I. Yeah, I learned real fast. The more you bear your testimony, the more you learn the doctrine, the more you defend the church and the pr, the more support you'll get.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:04] That's right. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:18:06] Like, I don't think this is probably conscious in the minds of many Mormons, but. But we all know about our racist past. We all know about the exclusion policies and the priesthood ban and the temple ban, and we all know that we're largely a white church. So psychologically, it's going to feel very good to an orthodox Mormon to have a black person join the church and to bear their testimony in the church. It's almost like that would help us feel repentance, kind of like social, collective repentance. It's like, hey, yeah, we were super racist. We still are kind of super racist. But, hey, if black people are joining and bearing their testimony, then maybe. Maybe we're doing okay now.

Chanel Achenbach [01:18:53] And we helped her and we treated her good.

John Dehlin [01:18:56] Right. So you were kind of helping them feel better about their racist past and present a little bit, maybe be.

Chanel Achenbach [01:19:04] Absolutely. Because things will slip out of their mouths. And I didn't care as long as I got sonic or, you know, I'm 18. I'm getting things that, you know, my. My parents weren't. You know, they didn't have things. And. And these people did. And they were, you know, we'll give this to you if you. And I was like, okay, I don't care. I will say whatever you want me to say. You keep treating me like this. Done. That's a good deal.

Margi Dehlin [01:19:33] Yeah. Yep. Goes back to those basic needs. Just trying to get our basic needs met.

John Dehlin [01:19:39] And I don't mean to paint it all as nefarious because they're in their minds they're just loving people. They're just being kind to people. They're excited for you. They absolutely best for you.

Chanel Achenbach [01:19:48] And I believe that.

John Dehlin [01:19:49] So they're, they're not rallying around you to in their minds to bribe you or to manipulate you, not at all. Or even for self serving reasons. In their minds they're just loving a new member and wanting the best for you.

Chanel Achenbach [01:20:01] And I believe that because with some of them it was like, so imagine never having chocolate before. You've never tasted chocolate before. And they all have. And they're like, hey, guess what? Have you ever had chocolate? And you're like nope. And they're like here's some chocolate. And you're like, oh my gosh, they're going to feel good because they see that they've had this chocolate meaning prosperity, prosperity. And now they're like would you like some chocolate? And, and I can feel they meant it. They meant it and then things change. But at that time they meant it and they wanted me to have chocolate because they had chocolate and they wanted to share. I believe they meant no harm in the beginning.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:45] Yeah, I think what's hard about that and I do feel like strongly about this part is the, the hard thing about intention is that it's connected to the level of awareness you have. So it's important to say yes, that they didn't intend to do harm or they weren't intending to take on a role of white savior or they weren't intending to do these things. And it is also important to say it does harm. It does harm very much so when you don't intend it. And I think that's important and that's part of being nuanced and realizing the paradox and why this is complex.

John Dehlin [01:21:23] Well, I don't know, we want to kind of follow the timeline. But did it feel like harm at the time or is it was the harm. Are we going to hear about the harm later?

Chanel Achenbach [01:21:36] I think yes and no because it started to be harmful later. You started to see that what that was giving was a cost.

John Dehlin [01:21:51] It kind of lured the kindness lures you in. Right. For harm. That maybe it's like a sugar coating. I don't mind. I don't want to put words.

Chanel Achenbach [01:21:59] No, it's so. I don't even know if this fits the timeline. But this is what I started noticing when I was hanging around these members that were love bombing me and giving me chocolate and sonic and whatever. I can feel that they meant no Harm. But then they started molding me. I remember one said, listen to me, you're 18. You cannot vote Democrat anymore. You cannot do that. My parents voted Democrat. And he said, don't do that. And I was like, why? He was like, let me explain to you the difference between the Democrat and a Republican. He loved Rush Limbaugh. He gave me the books. He quoted him. He listened to him on radio. And I was like, okay. He's like, listen to me, Democrats. Let's say that there's a. You're in a boat, and there's people out in the water that need a rope to get to the boat. A Democrat. Let's say that you only need 50 yards of rope. A Democrat wants 150 yards of rope. More rope than they need. A Republican will only take like maybe 10, 10 yards of rope and swim to it. That's the difference between the Democrat and a Republican. And so you want to be Republican because it will always teach you to work for what you want. Democrats want everything to be handed to them and way more than they need. So don't vote Democrat. You're now a member. You're understanding this is how it is. And I was like, okay. And I remember telling my dad, oh, my gosh. And I didn't really understand politics then. I just like, dad, I can't vote Democrat. And I told him that story. I think he wanted to smack me. I told him the story. This is what Democrats do. If they only. If they need 50 yards of rope, they want 150. A Republican takes 10 and swims to it. And he was like, what the hell are you talking about? And I was like, well, that's how it is. He's like, are you brainwashed? I was like, no, think about it. And I didn't know what the hell I was talking about. But I remember my dad was just like, okay, get out of my face. Just. Just go. Go. But I didn't. I didn't understand that. Now I do. Oh, my gosh. But I'm 18. These people, these respect. Respectable people that are doing better, that have now increased in wealth and prosperity and different things. They were doing better. Why wouldn't I listen to him? And my parents never owned a home. He just moved from a smaller one to a bigger one. So that made sense to me. You know, I. I didn't know. I was just thinking about my brain, and I thought. And then judge my parents, you know,

Margi Dehlin [01:24:43] And I. Yeah, you, like, you mentioned love bombing being a key component, but I think, I mean, what I'm hearing is there's this huge layering of. You're depraved, though they, they gave you a history you didn't know about before you were born, where you're lacking in some way. And then. And that is what makes you hustle and then makes you kind of one down from, you know, your congregation who's white. And that allows them to now be in a state of power above you to say things like, you know what, we don't vote that way or we don't do that. And for you to be like, well, I, you know, I don't have what you have because I have, you know, I'm a woman of color, so I guess I'll listen to you. And so the insidiousness may be planted then, you know, to answer your question, because you were like, but was it lovely in the beginning? And I just think it's important to kind of see the planting of it was then. And, and that's kind of part of. So it was love bombing, but it was also sort of giving you this depraved sense of yourself that then, you know, made you easier to use a little bit.

Chanel Achenbach [01:25:55] Oh, absolutely. I don't know how any other way to put it. As I think about all these times being in homes and listening to things consistently being told that you're less, but I can help you become better. Fixing me, always fixing me. My looks, what I ate, how loud I was because I was like, oh my gosh, what's up? And Reverend, Reverend, you need to be reverent. Just toning it down. I want to play cards. We don't play cards. You know, you don't do face cards. Everything about me, that was me. I was no longer me.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:34] Wow.

Chanel Achenbach [01:26:34] I was no longer me. I was them. They were taking this person and taking everything about her that was wrong and making a. A better person. Because that person right there, that person wasn't good. That wasn't that person. You didn't love that person. You loved what it did for you and your community. You didn't love this 18 year old that was just like, oh my gosh, I want to do right. I want God to like me. I want to be liked. Just stripping it down. Stripping down and rebuilding to what you think is good. This little 18 year old is not good, but we're going to make her good.

John Dehlin [01:27:23] I'm sorry.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:24] I'm so sorry.

John Dehlin [01:27:30] Yeah. When. Well, two things occurred to me as you were telling that story. One was I'm imagining in the member's mind they're saying, don't vote Democrat because Democrats do this, that or the other. I wonder if in their minds they were thinking people of color do this, that or the other. Vote Republican, but maybe, maybe vote more white. Like, in my mind, I wonder whether that member was thinking people of color when he said Democrat or, you know, you know what I'm saying?

Chanel Achenbach [01:28:01] Yeah. And I agree because I brought up my parents. Like, we were talking about politics because at that time some things were going on and, and it's like, well, how will you vote? Because I think it was Bush, Clinton, and my parents were talking about Clinton. And he's like, no, no, no, no, no, you can't do that. Clinton is not for the people. And I was like, wait, what? And he was like, he's like, don't vote Democrat. And we don't do that. This is why Rush Limbaugh. And I was like, okay. So I started listening to Rush Limbaugh.

Margi Dehlin [01:28:36] You know, I have a question about you with regard to your family during this time. Do you feel like your relationship with your parents, your siblings, your extended family, was it, was it like strained? Was it impacted?

Chanel Achenbach [01:28:52] Oh, very much so, because part of it was a mindset. Well, I'm better than you because they told me, I'm better than you because I found the truth. You don't have the truth. And I need to save you. I need to convert you. They're not good enough. Being my parents. I needed to fix them. I mean, look at your childhood. Was it perfect? Did you have this? Did you have that? No. Then you need to convert them so that you can have this. You cannot have a good, prosperous life without the gospel facts. Look at us. And I was like, man, I gotta fix my parents. I gotta fix them. I was fixing people. I wanted to fix people. I never thought that before. I just enjoyed people. Was just fun to hang out and play spades and do that. Now I was fixing everybody.

Margi Dehlin [01:29:47] Yep.

Chanel Achenbach [01:29:48] Very strange. I mean, how you feel is now your 18 year old telling you you're terrible and that you need to do better. And I remember, here's, here's, here's a great thing, though. One of the missionaries that taught me, I remember he was over for a dinner appointment and I had made them dinner and I was giving my mom a hard time. I was like, you need to put that cancer stick down and you need to stop drinking that sin coffee and stuff like that. And he's like, come here. And I was like, what? He goes, let's go outside. He's like, don't you ever talk to your mom like that. He was like. Everybody else is like. And he was like, you don't talk to your mom like that. Okay. What makes you think you're better than her? Everybody else is like, no, you are better than her, though. You don't do that stuff. And he was like, no, this is wrong.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:33] Right?

Chanel Achenbach [01:30:33] This is wrong. He was one of the very few people that spoke up. Very few. Everybody else liked that mentality. Fix your parents, fix your family. They can't be eternal to what they're doing. That. That's not going to happen. You'll never get to the temple with them if they're doing that right. Those things are wicked. So my mom was wicked.

John Dehlin [01:31:00] So, Chanel, so you joined the church, and it. It kind of puts a strain on your family relationships where you kind of feel like they're not good enough and you're not good enough. How long was it between your baptism and your decision to serve a mission? If I. If I got my dates right, you probably would have gone on a mission at age 21 or later, because this would have been before the age change. Is that right?

Chanel Achenbach [01:31:28] Right.

John Dehlin [01:31:29] So you were. You were a member for a few years before deciding to serve a mission?

Chanel Achenbach [01:31:33] Yes. So I joined in 1990. November. And my mission was from September 1993 to March of 1995.

John Dehlin [01:31:42] Okay. Anything else about your Mormon story before we talk about your. Your decision to serve a mission? No, I just date, you know. Did you date Mormons? Did you do anything?

Chanel Achenbach [01:31:53] I tried to, yeah. Oh, I tried to.

John Dehlin [01:31:55] Before your mission?

Chanel Achenbach [01:31:56] Before my mission.

John Dehlin [01:31:56] Do you want to talk about dating Mormons before your mission?

Chanel Achenbach [01:32:00] Yes, I tried to. Oh, my gosh. So when I joined the church, I went right into Relief Society. Okay. And so I'm around a bunch of women that are older than me. You know, they're 40, they're 50, they're in their 60s. And I don't remember who it was. Some of the youth are like, hey, do you know there's a singles ward? And I was like, what. What do you. What do you do there? And they're like, no, it's. It's a ward. It's just people that are single so you can meet people. And I was like, ooh, that sounds like fun. They said, and you could date people. And I was like, that sounds like fun. And so I started attending a singles ward and meeting people and just kind of hanging out with men, but not really dating. I tried to. Like, I was interested, had crushes on. But they always Were more like one guy. I remember he was Hispanic and he was like the hand. Like, hey, you know, we could be friends. Can't really date. I didn't understand at the time it was about race. I thought it was just. He wasn't interested, you know. Later on, he did explain the race. You can't mix. But. But at the.

John Dehlin [01:33:06] What do you mean you can't mix?

Chanel Achenbach [01:33:07] He said that interracial dating is frowned upon about the church, and that is something that you can't do. Said it's against the church policy. And I said, okay. Like, I didn't like it, but I. I'm not going to fight their policy. I said, okay. So then there was others accepted that I accepted it. Like, I was never trying to challenge the church. I kept asking questions, and when they would shut it down, I just stopped, you know, I was like, okay, yeah, what.

John Dehlin [01:33:32] What people who weren't raised Mormon won't know Is that up until. I think even this year, it. It might still be there. It's officially taught in Mormon church curriculum that interracial marriage is a. Is bad, really bad, not preferable. Is that right?

Chanel Achenbach [01:33:47] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was with him. But then there was a guy that. He was a lot older than me, and he was absolutely amazing. And I remember. I remember I was crushing on him really bad. And I was assuming he was crushing on me too, because I remember the conversation we had, and he was like, chanel, I gotta tell you something. He said, this is not going to go forward. And he wasn't mean. And I was like, what do you mean? He's like, chanel, there is no way I can take you up north. I almost said the state, but I'm not trying to out him. And I was like, why? And he's like, my family is not going to go for that. That is not going to happen. That's just not going to happen. I said, why? He's like, we can't mix. The racist. And he was a lot older than me. And he was explaining that his parents came from a time that they just weren't open. Even though he was open, his family wouldn't be open. And he was like, you know, if we have a wedding, don't you want, you know, people to be happy there? And I was like, okay. And then he said this. Oh, my gosh. He said, chanel, I need to find a white Chanel. He said, everything about you is so cool. So it was like a slap in the face. But then a no, you're fine.

John Dehlin [01:35:13] The black Parent compliment.

Chanel Achenbach [01:35:15] Yeah, I remember. And he was amazing. And he was like, I just gotta find a white Chanel. You know, this and this and this about you is so great, but I need to find a white version. And I was, like, devastated. He was so cool. And I was like, wait, just because I'm black? He said, you have to understand, we can't do that. The church isn't. The church is not going to allow that. I said, allow. I said, they can tell us that we can't that. And he was like, the church is not going to allow that. He never really answered and said yes or no. He said, the church is not going to allow that, and my family's not going to have it.

Margi Dehlin [01:35:52] And.

Chanel Achenbach [01:35:53] And I was like, okay, all right. And I was so bummed because with him, as opposed to another one that was more devastating, it was okay. Not what he said, but it was more okay that that relationship didn't work out, because I think I was like, mentally, he was professional and busy. I was young. I think I was. I think I was 19, and I think he was Keep forgetting his age. I. I thought I was older, but actually I wasn't. I think I was 19, and I think he was probably maybe 30. So he's a lot older. And I was kind of goofy. So. So to me, it was like, okay, probably better for him. And I wasn't really focusing on the race thing at the time, and. But when. When he said the white version, a white Chanel, the sad thing is I was like, yeah, that probably is better. Yeah, that's. That's probably better. I. I was accepting those things. And I thought he was so great. I thought, yeah, good for him. He can find a better.

John Dehlin [01:37:13] I'm so sorry.

Chanel Achenbach [01:37:15] Yeah. Oh, crazy.

John Dehlin [01:37:19] So what led to you wanting to serve a mission, deciding to serve a mission?

Chanel Achenbach [01:37:25] Members kept telling me that missionary work is everything, and I was so good at it and that I had a great testimony and I can help bring other black people that I can also, because I could help them understand that I'm okay and I'm safe there. And that my testimony was just. Was so good, my conversion was just so good that sharing that with people would just be great. Basically. It's like when you think about the Boy Scouts, all their different badges, it was like a badge, you know, if you go on a mission, then you'll get this badge. If you do this, you'll get this badge. So it was another badge, another. Lots of support, lots of recognition, lots of pats on the back, pat on the Head how great of a person I was, not because of Chanel, but because I was going to go on a mission to help the church.

John Dehlin [01:38:21] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:24] And again, even subconsciously, the church has to collectively feel like it, number one, needs to atone for how it's treated black people historically. But it needs. It can't have white people saying, this church is not racist. It needs black people saying, this is a great church. And so there would be a real cultural incentive to get you out on that mission to be the. A black face for the church.

Chanel Achenbach [01:38:51] Now, I think this is really important. It's one thing to have a black member of the church that's kind of there and doesn't know the doctrine or the scriptures or anything, but I was in it. I'm talking. I. My scripture mastery was done fast. My discussions were memorized fast. I was leading that. I was. You know, we had to learn 65 scriptures for scripture mastery, but they only quizzed us on, like, 20 years. I knew them all. Like, I wasn't messing around. And so that was pushed, you know, more of, she knows her stuff. And so when I went to deal with this, and I realize now what they were doing, when I went to go talk to the ministers and pastors of the religions that were black, I could school them. They're not going to mess with her. She knows her stuff. She knows it better than us. Send her. So not only does she know the doctrine and know about scriptures, she's black and she's smiling and she's not complaining. Send her. And I went happily.

Called to Serve a Mission in Texas

John Dehlin [01:40:00] So you were called where?

Chanel Achenbach [01:40:02] I went to the Oklahoma Tulsa Mission.

John Dehlin [01:40:05] And your family's reaction to you getting a mission call?

Margi Dehlin [01:40:09] No.

Chanel Achenbach [01:40:10] They were like, my dad was terrified. My mom was just like, what are you doing? This is goofy. My father was terrified. Like, I'm being serious. He was scared to death. And he's like, don't go. He's like, they're gonna hurt you. They're gonna do this. Especially when he found out where I was going. I didn't know. I didn't know much about Arkansas. No, that was one of my areas.

John Dehlin [01:40:31] Oklahoma and Arkansas.

Chanel Achenbach [01:40:32] It was over four different states. It was like, the bordering parts of these states. It was Oklahoma, Missouri, Kansas, and Oklahoma. Kansas, Missouri, Oklahoma, Arkansas.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:44] Wow. Yeah.

Chanel Achenbach [01:40:47] So he was terrified. He. He was really scared to death and said, this is not. Oh. And I remember his face. This is what I said that freaked him out the most. He said, you know, Chanel, if you go out there in these racist parts, because I went from Texas Right until another Southern place that was was really racist. He said, they're going to hurt you out there for knocking on their doors, talking to them about God. People don't like you messing with their religion. And I said, dad. And he goes, you could be killed. And I said, good. If I'm killed while I'm on a mission, I'm in the celestial kingdom. And he was like, what are you saying? I'm like, if I die while I'm on my mission, that's like the second anointing. I'm going to heaven. That's fine with me. And he didn't take that well for good reason. I look back on it now, but at the time, I was happy to die on my mission. Could you imagine Sister Johnson dies on her mission serving the Lord. That's great. That was my mindset. It's not my mindset now, but it was my mindset.

John Dehlin [01:41:49] Wow. I have to ask, what was it like to go through the temple for you prior to your mission? The temple endowment ceremony? How was that for you

Chanel Achenbach [01:42:04] besides the Book of Mormon? I didn't like that at all. Not even a little bit. I didn't like that.

John Dehlin [01:42:11] What about it?

Chanel Achenbach [01:42:13] I didn't like the initiatory.

John Dehlin [01:42:16] Why not?

Chanel Achenbach [01:42:18] I didn't like people touching me.

John Dehlin [01:42:22] Where was it? Was it back when it was kind of naked on the side? Oh, yeah, Like a white shield.

Chanel Achenbach [01:42:28] Oh, gosh.

John Dehlin [01:42:28] And they're touching different parts of your

Chanel Achenbach [01:42:31] saying, this is for this and this is for that. And I did not like that at all. I thought that was the weirdest, creepiest, freakish. And that's when I started getting like, okay, what am I in? You know? Cuz there's being things told to me outside from all my friends and family about the church. And now I'm in this place. Nobody warned me, told me anything. They just said, it's going to be a beautiful, wonderful spiritual experience. And then that happened. Yeah, but you have to smile when you go out of there. You've got these people. My parents didn't take me. Great members took me. So I can't go in there and say, oh my gosh, that was so weird. I don't like that. I have to go. This was great. And I am dying inside because I hated every minute of that. I did not like that. But what am I supposed to do? I'm going to go on a mission. And I did tell a friend and she said, you don't understand everything. Right now you're feeling weird because, you know, maybe you're not really worthy. So that started thinking, what did I do? Oh, that time I cussed and, you know. Yeah. So it was just weird.

John Dehlin [01:43:32] What about the actual endowment part? The. The film, the endowment part?

Chanel Achenbach [01:43:38] So I felt I didn't like any of that either because there was a little bit in me saying this feels like there. There's like the part of the film where he's like, if you don't do this and you know. Yeah. When Satan is telling. That didn't feel lovely and spiritual and sweet. That feel like, you do what I say or you're gonna burn. And I was like, I didn't like that. I was like. And then to depict Eve a certain way as a woman and it's her fault and, you know, the innocence and that there was no choice that they had. I didn't. I didn't like. I didn't like that vibe. I did not like that vibe. I liked my friends and the people that were with me. I didn't like anything about that vibe. And then you have to understand, everybody around me look like what they said, what happened in the temple of what was going to be in heaven. Nobody looked like me in the temple.

John Dehlin [01:44:33] Meaning they're all white. They're all white, and they're all dressed

Chanel Achenbach [01:44:36] in white, and they're all dressed in white. So there's nothing about me that would be in the celestial kingdom that was devastating to me. And I didn't know how to feel about that. And then I really, really internalized what an evil person I was for feeling like that in the Lord's house. You bad person. How dare you freaking feel that way in the Lord's house. You are so messed up. There's problems with you. That's how I felt. I really let myself have it. Like, you disgusting person. How dare you? You're thinking these things feel bad and weird. You're not spiritual enough. You're not reading your scriptures. You're a bad person.

John Dehlin [01:45:10] I remember reading the. It wasn't until I read the Autobiography of Malcolm X where he talks about. Not in Mormonism, just in Christianity and in white culture. White is equated with good and black and dark is equated with bad. And it just occurred to me, Satan's robes in the temple are dark, right? Lamanites are dark. And heaven, the social kingdom, is white and bright, and Nephites are white and the prophets white. And Jesus in Mormonism is white. And it, you know, know there's just this subtle message that dark is bad, Satan is bad. If. If you are not righteous with more in Mormonism, what's your countenance like?

Chanel Achenbach [01:45:53] You're not white. And delights them if you're white and delights him if you're good.

John Dehlin [01:45:56] Right.

Chanel Achenbach [01:45:57] That's what you're going to be changed to. White and delights. You're going to be dark and loathsome.

John Dehlin [01:46:01] Yeah. So that I guess that would really come across in the temple of all places. That whiteness. That whiteness is good. Good.

Chanel Achenbach [01:46:09] Well, when you're talking, it takes me back to that moment when that member first told me about. Remember I told you they're telling black jokes? Man, I hope she's listening so she can know that it was just bad, that she's not a bad person. One of the jokes that they told was referencing white babies as angels and black babies as bats. That was the joke. And the other one was why does black people not play in the sand? Is because the cats will cover them up because they're dark like poop. And that's the jokes that were being told right before she told me about. Why. Why would they tell me those particular jokes? It wasn't them, it was her. Why did she tell me those jokes? Why did they laugh too? Why didn't they say black babies are bats, white babies are angels? That's horrible. It's terrible.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:10] So terrible.

John Dehlin [01:47:13] I'm so sorry. Yeah. So you left the temple, Mormon Temple ceremony feeling what?

Chanel Achenbach [01:47:21] Questioning a lot. Just. And then questioning myself, thinking you're like doubting Thomas. You're doubting this beautiful place that they told you about because you feel weird, because you don't understand, because you're not spiritually equipped enough to get it. Shame on you.

John Dehlin [01:47:38] So you turn it back on yourself. There must be something wrong with you if this feels wrong.

Chanel Achenbach [01:47:43] Absolutely. Everybody else is smiling and crying and you're sitting here questioning. Shame on you. You have no right to question the Lord or what happens in his house.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:51] Else.

Chanel Achenbach [01:47:52] Yeah, I was, I was really internalizing how evil I must have been. Why is everybody else crying and so happy and you're having doubts and you're, you're questioning things that happen in there. You are not even close to being equipped to understanding.

John Dehlin [01:48:07] I guess that teaching of being a fence sitter in the pre existence might come to the back of your mind. Then it's like, well, if I'm not feeling the Holy Ghost in the temple, maybe there is something spiritually inferior about me.

Chanel Achenbach [01:48:21] Absolutely. I, I have to keep going to learn to be better. And I trust me, I wanted to, I wanted to love every minute of Everything they promised would happen and it was the most cruel letdown. It was so just. Oh, just everything about it, like. And I. I feel weird now saying it because I feel like, like some. Sometimes I know better, but sometimes in the back of my mind I'm like, see, you still weren't spiritual. I know better, but I don't. I'm still like, how could everybody feel so spiritual and say they have spiritual experience and you didn't? It's because you're wicked, that's why. Because you're a bad, carnally minded woman.

Margi Dehlin [01:49:09] Those things, they can stick and stay.

Chanel Achenbach [01:49:12] Yeah, they do. I question to this day why I didn't have a spiritual experience. Yeah, it was pretty. And that's what that was. My spiritual experience is how beautiful it was. But that's it. Yeah, white and the white and the chandeliers and the color. It was pretty clean and pristine. Yeah, that's it. And then the people I was with, not the experience at all.

John Dehlin [01:49:38] Right. Okay, so tell us what you want to tell us about your mission to the South. I mean, I don't think people realize I grew up in Texas, but like. And there could be racism everywhere, including in Texas, obviously. But I think about my upbringing in Houston or what I know about, like, Austin or Dallas or San Antonio. For me, there's a catego. Categorical difference between that and sometimes, you know, Alabama or Mississippi or. Or Arkansas or some of those other southern states. I don't know exactly how I would describe it, but it's different in terms of. I just have to say it. How many white people would treat black people? I don't know if that was your experience, but sometimes Texas has lumped into the south in ways that it's a little bit unique to some of the other Southern states. Is that right or not?

Chanel Achenbach [01:50:28] Yeah. Texas is a huge state. So you have different diasporas. I mean, it's just. Yeah, yeah, it's. It's different. I mean, you've got Tex Mex and Hispanic and you've got black and you've got Asian. I mean, you have a lot of military bases there too. So you have a lot of different

Margi Dehlin [01:50:52] people from other places.

Chanel Achenbach [01:50:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:50:55] The oil, at least to Houston. The oil companies brought a lot of cultural diversity.

Chanel Achenbach [01:50:58] Yes. The oil companies, the military, the schools.

John Dehlin [01:51:08] Yeah.

Chanel Achenbach [01:51:08] You know, and. And one thing that I think is a little bit different too is the police. The police are Hispanic, black a lot, mostly white. But at least you have. I haven't seen any black police officers in Utah. I'm not saying that there's none, but I've never come in contact with them. But on my mission, it was hard dealing with other missionaries and other members. That's the one place I didn't expect racism on my mission from members and other missionaries. And the crazy thing is, I do have a letter from one missionary who apologized. He said, you know what? I can't believe how racist I am and how my family is. And then I meet you, and none of that's true. Do you know what I've been taught about you, about your people? He says, I feel awful, but he wrote me a letter. He wrote me a letter and apologized on my mission, and I'm so grateful for that. And then to go through different things with members and missionaries and nobody say, stop.

John Dehlin [01:52:22] What are the. If you. If you're comfortable sharing, and I know it's probably heavy for you, can you share some of the stories of racism you experienced for missionaries and for members on your mission? And I know it's probably sensitive for you to.

Chanel Achenbach [01:52:39] One of. One of these things was on a p Day at a Pizza Hut. And like I said, the missionary was upset because his sister had a baby with a black man and it wasn't working out, and he was going off. And I remember I was so mad that everybody sat around at this big table we were at and didn't say anything. And so when the waitress came around, she was taking our order on what kind of pizza and drinks we wanted. I remember I told her I wanted a black drink. And she was like, what? I said, a black drink. I don't want Sprite. I don't want water. I want the blackest, darkest drink you have, the darkest cola you have. And I was staring at this missionary the whole time that was saying racist things. And then she was like, okay. And so then when we're ordering pizza, and I said, you know what? I need my own pizza. And I want it burnt. I want the white cheese burnt. I want black olives on it. Anything black, I want you to put on my pizza. And I just stared at him and said, that is enough. There's nothing wrong with black. I am sorry that your sister's having a problem. That doesn't have to do with me or anybody else that looks like me. That is so messed up that you're saying this in front of everyone. No one said anything. That was one instance. Another instance was a few missionaries dressing up. I guess I could say blackface, you know, putting on my makeup, saying that they were black. And, you know, like, what's up? Girl and just acting silly. And then one missionary, and just to preface this, I will never out anybody and I'll tell anybody that ask me, I will not tell you who they are because I do love them and I'm friends with some of them. This day as 21 year old, I guarantee you we didn't know any better. And there are some awareness and some teachings that we've learned since then. But there was an incident where me and another missionary dressed up like. Like slaves and we had like the red tie bandanas on our head and we were slaves. And there's a belt around my neck and she's holding like a noose. She's holding. She's holding the belt around my neck like this and I'm playing right along with it.

John Dehlin [01:54:56] What was the context of dressing up like that? Was it playing around?

Racism Experienced During Missionary Service

Chanel Achenbach [01:55:01] It was our p day and I don't know why. I don't know if I suggested or she, she suggested. I just. I have pictures of it and, and I won't share who she is. I don't know why. I don't know why that was. Okay. Why were we playing like that? Why was I allowing that? Why?

Margi Dehlin [01:55:20] Do you have any memories about what you felt

Chanel Achenbach [01:55:25] during just to be accepted and at that time, as in a black culture, I know my parents, my father talking to him a lot. You are taught to comply with white people or you can get hurt. You are taught if they, if they're walking towards you, you move out of the way. You are taught that if they speak to you, you cannot not speak to them. They, they are allowed to touch you, they're allowed to examine you, they're allowed to. You are not allowed to say no or you can get hurt. And you make them comfortable. You always make them comfortable. If they say you need to dress up like a slave to play and to deal with their racism, that's what you do.

John Dehlin [01:56:15] Well, that's a tough story. Thank you for sharing, sharing that with us. I guess I'm trying to imagine what it would be like to be in your shoes of just wanting to fit in. And so if missionaries are saying or doing really racist things, I could even see you wanting to diffuse the tension by, by even playing along or making jokes yourself sometimes. Is that.

Chanel Achenbach [01:56:46] Of course? Yes. Like I told you earlier, we are taught to make, as my dad would say, make them comfortable so they don't hurt you. Make them very comfortable. You just smile and I guess it's what they call the shuck and jive, you know? Yeah, Massa, I'LL be good. What you want me to do? You know, you just kind of make them comfortable, and you. You're there. What is their gesture or something? You just kind of like, hey, I'm terrible, right? Yeah, you are. See, and everybody's happy. They. I don't know what that mentality is from, but, you know, I was talking to some friends. It's like when they'll say, hey, Chanel, you know, you see that store? It's funny how they're selling chicken and watermelon in the same place, and you're like, yeah, funny. You know, just things like that. It's like, why do. So if you think those things, why do you need to say them to me? What do you want me to do with that? See, if I get mad, though, I'm an angry black woman. If I get mad and say, excuse me, that was racist, then I'm a terrible, mean, angry person. But if I just smile and say, you're so funny, that's okay. But they don't realize what they said was harmful, shouldn't be harmful. It's just a joke.

John Dehlin [01:58:09] Mm.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:11] It's so powerful because at the. At the core of that is survival.

Chanel Achenbach [01:58:17] Pretty much like, literally life or death.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:20] Like, that is. It feels like that's the historical. Like, where it comes from is at. On a basic level, preservation, like life.

Chanel Achenbach [01:58:31] You question. If you question, then they feel threatened, like, oh, so I'm bad. Oh, so I'm terrible. It's a. It's a thing I. I read in a book that was titled With Fragility. And if I say, john, that wasn't nice, then instead of saying, oh, my gosh, what can I do? I am so sorry. It's more like, oh, so I'm a bad guy. Also, I'm evil. And then the tears start. And so people stop focusing on the harm you did to me and focus on your tears that you are now upset and you feel bad. He felt bad. What's the problem? Well, did you not hear what he just said to me? Well, you chose to be offended. It's weird. But that's. That's the atmosphere.

John Dehlin [01:59:16] Yeah. It sounds like one of the hardest parts about experiencing racism, either in your ward experiences or on your mission, was that other missionaries kind of didn't call it out or come to your defense.

Chanel Achenbach [01:59:28] Not at all. Not at all. And the weird. The. The crazy thing about that particular situation, I had made a video on TikTok, and I was talking about that experience when that member kept calling me a coon. And I described My mission companion at the time, very distinct to describe who she was. Well, sent the video out. I'll say it. I was saying, yeah, my redhead companion just sat there and laughed about it. Well, she saw it, and I don't ever call out anybody. I never used her names, and I try not to use anything that'll identify them.

John Dehlin [02:00:00] I.

Chanel Achenbach [02:00:01] And I'm like, stop outing yourselves, people. But what she said is, she's like, wait a minute. I love you. I'm support. I laughed. I said, yeah, you laughed. And you were like. And she haven't heard from her since. Because in another video of mine, she saw. She was like, oh, I love you. I'm here for you. Until I said that. And then she was like, shut down.

Margi Dehlin [02:00:23] It's like, until there's a sense of accountability.

Chanel Achenbach [02:00:26] Correct. And I was like, I wanted to know, were you laughing? I said, yeah. Were you laughing because you were uncomfortable and you didn't know what to do? Were you laughing because you thought it was funny? I don't know. I'm sitting there next to you going, she's calling me a coon, and you're laughing and. But it is what it is, right?

John Dehlin [02:00:50] So what was it? How were you received as a black Mormon missionary in the south? When you're knocking on doors and tracting out people, did people double takes? Were they used to it? Did they call you out?

Chanel Achenbach [02:01:05] All of the above? Because part of it in the Bible Belt, they didn't like Mormons. So I was getting it because I was Mormon. Then I was getting. Because I was a woman, then I was getting it because I was black. And then I was getting it from the black people because they're like, what is wrong with you? You know that that church is racist. How can you be a part of that? Shame on you. So it was like, there was no win. There was. There was no win at all. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:01:35] So what, was it fun? Was it hard? Did you have success? Did you teach people? Did you bring any people into the church?

Chanel Achenbach [02:01:42] Sure, there were some people that I cared about a lot. The people that I can remember and cared about a lot was in a small city town in Pawhuska, Oklahoma, and that was a church welfare farm. They had cows and a land about like 200, 200 something acres of land where they did the welfare farm for the meat. There were some cowboys and ranchers that were members that were working with us as, like, missionaries. The town was giving us a hard time, giving us a really hard time about that. But, yeah, there was a lot of racism knocking on doors. A lot of threats. Yeah. It's one thing coming from outside members. I don't know if this is important to know, but it's something significant to know. At that time, the OJ Simpson trial was going on. So guess what was happening? People were taking sides on race and they were pissed off about black people because this black man killed this beautiful white woman. And we remember, we don't have TVs or email or nothing. So we go knocking on the door and they be like, come back later. OJ's on slam. And we're like, oh, Jason, he's a football player. Like, is he playing football again? So then we kept going. And then you'd hear inward that N word killed her and that N word this and that, N word that. And you're just like, oh, my gosh, what is going on here? And that was pretty significant on the mission at the time, is that OJ trial. So if you try and knock on doors and there's already tension and it's racial tension because a black man killed a white woman, to them, that was really uncomfortable for me.

John Dehlin [02:03:43] So being a missionary to white people, when. When you were attracting white people. Yeah, there was maybe less reception than even there otherwise would have been.

Chanel Achenbach [02:03:52] Oh, yeah, that was harsh.

John Dehlin [02:03:55] Did you ever serve in areas with predominantly black kind of a prom. Predominantly white population.

Chanel Achenbach [02:04:01] And it was military. It was a military. Wayne's World. Wayne's World, Waynesville, Fort Lennon Wood, Missouri. Military. Yes, that was for a short time, but yeah, predominantly, mostly black. Very, very diverse. But other than that, no.

John Dehlin [02:04:25] So did you ever bring any individuals, black or white, into the church?

Chanel Achenbach [02:04:30] Well, I don't think he ever joined, but I just found his picture the other day. I was laughing. I can't remember his name, but there was a black man in Missouri and they had me talking to him a lot. He wasn't having it. He was like, nope, I'm not joining. And I was like, come on, I'm here. There are black people. Come on, you could join. And he was like, no, but I'll talk to you. And so we tried. And they were sure I was going to be the one to get him in. And he never joined. And then there was no I. There was no. No other black people. Nope. Other than that, the people that we taught and got baptized were white.

John Dehlin [02:05:16] Okay, so. So overall, how did you view your mission?

Chanel Achenbach [02:05:22] I viewed it yin and yang. It was really, really bad and painful, and it was good. The reason why it was really bad and painful because I didn't expect the Members and the other missionaries to be racist and say racist things and say harmful things and to go through that. And it was good because I learned a lot. And I learned that you can endure. I learned how to endure very well in that because I remember I had called the missionary who. Who taught me that. The lessons when I got baptized. Like I said, I still talk to him. He's one of the greatest people in the world. I was complaining about some stuff going on in a mission, and he just said, you got to increase your resolve. That's the best thing I can tell you is you can't change your circumstances. You can increase your resolve, you can set boundaries and you'll get through it. And I just have taken that as great advice. But it was hard. It was a very hard mission. I even threatened to go home one day. I was. Something was happening with a missionary at that time. I didn't understand senior and junior companion thing and made me a senior pretty quickly. And the person was like, you're not going to be a senior over me. And I was like, okay, like, what would you like me to do? I didn't ask for this. Can we just do the work? And it wasn't happening. And so I told our zone leader A. This is happening. This is what she's saying. You either take care of it or I'll call my father. I am 13 hours away. He will come pick me up. I'm not doing this. I've been dealing with a lot. I've been going through the racism. I've been letting people talk trash to me. I'm on my mission, so handle it or I'm leaving. I'm done. I'm not doing this. This is the last place I expected to have really uncomfortable racist comments and. And situations with missionaries and members. I. I was. I was done. Like, I. At that point, I was like, I'm not doing this anymore. And then he tried to address it, but before, everyone was just telling me to take it and deal with it. And, you know, they kept using a trial of your faith. Some scripture they kept quoting to me of, after a trial of your faith, burn of the fire, something out of a trial of your faith. And I was like, okay, my faith is tried, and I don't want to do this anymore. So

John Dehlin [02:07:54] do you. Did you feel like you had a good relationship with your mission president?

Chanel Achenbach [02:07:57] Mission president was. We had three.

John Dehlin [02:08:00] Oh.

Chanel Achenbach [02:08:01] Because one was supposed to come in and got sick, and then the other one wasn't ready. We had three. The first one was my favorite. The Intermediate one. And here, neutral, indifferent. Nothing profound, remarkable or not. And the last one, he was interesting. I don't really know what to say. Yeah, I like my first one. I'll just say that I loved the first one. I thought he was great.

Post-Mission Life and Racist Dating Experiences

John Dehlin [02:08:39] All right, so you finished your mission and came back home. What did you leave your mission wanting to do next in your Mormon journey? What were your plans as you're finishing the mission?

Chanel Achenbach [02:08:52] I just wanted to go to school. Education was important to me. I just really wanted a degree. I really wanted schooling, and I wanted to go to byu. And they discouraged me from that and said, try Rexburg. Well, I don't remember what happened with that and why I didn't get into that, but something had happened. But I felt I had to go to a Mormon school because a Mormon school would, first of all put me around other Mormons and would also put me around the possibility of finding other black Mormons, is what they told me. So you're not going to typically find black Mormons in just other cities, but you will find them at the schools, because from different cities and states, they will come to the school, school. And I was like, oh, okay. Like, you need to find a black man. Okay. And I was like, okay. And so they said, you need to go to school where you can find other black Mormons. And I said, okay. I don't remember why it didn't work out, but it didn't work out okay. And I. I don't. I really don't remember. I think I know BYU didn't work out because they just said they didn't think that would be a good fit for me. I don't know why, but they said, don't do byu. Try Rexburg. And I'm following my leaders. I. I don't know the difference between BYU and Rexburg. I don't think I even had about BYU growing up, ever, much less Mormons. So I get home trying to get into school, then I just start working. Then they said, you know what? We think it's best that you get married. You know, you're already older, you've served the mission. You're. You're a great candidate for marriage, but you need to find a black man. And I remember kept asking, where am I supposed to find a black man? And they're like, it doesn't matter. You find a black man, convert him, or go to an area where there's predominantly black people in the wards. And then I said, so I'm supposed to move out of state. Which one? Which one? And that's when I started to get testy. I was like, which one? Which one would you like me to move to? Because I don't know. I was getting irritated. And they're like, that we don't know, but that's what you need to do. And I'm like, so what are you saying? I started putting my thumb. What are you saying when you say, I need to go find a black man? I need to move out of state to find a black man. Why is that? And they're like, like, well, sister, is just what I need you to say it. Say it. So black people and white people aren't supposed to mix. They're like, no, they're not. And I said, is there a reason why? Yes. Because your seed is cursed. If your seed mixes with their seed, then your children, your husband, won't be cursed, but your children will be. You want that. You want that for your family? And I was like, well, no. And said, well, this is why it's not supposed to happen. So two black people, we're just going to stay cursed. So you want me to find a black man so I could be cursed with Hannah so our kids can be cursed? Got it. Okay. I'll work on that. And I was just irritated by then. I was kind of, like, starting to get bitter. Started to get just like, what the heck? So then after my mission, here's a beautiful thing that happened. This is the only reason I could say I love my parents, so don't misunderstand. But I think this is what saved me from really losing and just going off on the church is after my mission, there was an area in my mission where there was a woman in the ward who we were at a dinner appointment, and she said, hey, after your mission, would you like to come live with us? And I was like, nope. And then as I got to know her, I don't know what it was. Something said to do it. By then, I was bitter. I was. After my mission, I was tired of all the racism. I live with her and her family. She was a white woman. She was married to a Filipino man. She's. I feel bad for saying this because I don't want anybody else to think that I don't care for them. And maybe I misunderstood. I knew for a fact she loved me. She really did. She wasn't doing it to get anything. She wasn't. And I think she had gotten through her own stuff with people being racist to her because of her Filipino husband. But she was the only person that I truly feel Tried everything she could to get it. My mom loves her. My parents loved her. They never really. They talked about a few other people, but this was a person that they loved because they knew I was so angry and so bitter. And she kept telling me that I was worth it. She kept saying, do not listen to them. I don't care what they say. And I know they were saying stuff to her. You have that black person living in your house, she's gonna steal, she's gonna do this. Because it would get back to me. She didn't care. And they were grilling her pretty hard. You got to be careful. She's going to try to go after your sons, you know, what, whatever. And she was like, no, she. She treated me so good. And I remember this is what changed things for me. And then I really tried to make it work. I. There was a Christmas at her house, and she asked me some things I wanted for Christmas. And I was mean. I was like, what, you gonna get it for me? And she was like, chanel, what is it that you would like? I said, okay. She goes, just give me some lists about some things you like. So I was being a jerk. I just wrote down 33 things. Just. Just, you know, just being a jerk because I was so mad. Just about. Cuz some of the people around the neighborhood, they're being racist. They would say things, their kids would say things, and I'd take it. And she got me everything I asked for and then some. And I just was softened because she's like, I don't care about your skin. I don't care anything about it. And the thing that she did for me, to keep me from wanting to die, is she said after my mission, remember I told you that dancing is a big deal in. In our culture? While everybody else was trying to mold me and make me something. In this area in Fort Lenwood where the black people were my last area of my mission, there were some black women that were teasing me. They were like, you're a Mormon? And I was like, yeah. And they were like, you don't dance? And I was like, we're missionaries. We don't do that. And they're like, you don't know what the Tootsie Roll is or the butterfly? And I was like, no, but there. And so they did the dance in front of me and I was like, that what you guys are doing now? And they're like, yeah. And I'm like, I can't do that. I'm a missionary. I can't dance. And they're like, do it. And I'm like, no, I'm not doing it. I said, I have a month left. I'll go home and I'll do it then. So I get home and I go to a party. My family's all there, my cousins, my aunties, my uncles. And they're all doing this dance. My brother. And they were laughing at me because I was like, I don't know how to do that. You know? They're like, you're so boring. You've been on this mission, you ain't learned anything. And I don't want to do this dance. I don't want to try it. So I tried it and they laughed and it was a funny thing. But when I went back to live with her after my mission, I was telling her this story and she said, said, well, show it to me. I was like, what? She's like, show me this dance. And I was like, but it's it. It might be sensual or it might be. She was like, just show it to me. And so I performed the dance for her. And the way she was looking at me, she didn't care. She loves me. To this day, she doesn't care. I know it's hard for her that I left the church, but why couldn't everybody else try to understand? Why couldn't everybody else say, hey, let me listen? Because the other ones were telling me, there's no racism. You're over exaggerating. You're making a big deal. And she says, it's here, okay? But I am here. And I was so mean sometimes because I was just tired of it. She never tried to mold me into anything but me. And I guarantee you several times the things that I said and did were so painful for her, especially me leaving, believing. She talks to me now. She shows a lot of love for me. And Jehovah's witnesses believe only 144,000 will go. And if that's true, it's going to be her. She's going to be one of them. Because she just tries to understand racism. She tries to understand. She doesn't always understand, but she can empathize because it happened to her family. She can teach her children. These kids, their cousins weren't like them, racist as hell. But these kids in her home never said a racist thing to me, never said a microaggression, never made me feel like I was less to them. I was royalty always. And today she like, why can't everybody be like her? Why can't they just be like, you're human. That's enough. Why can't me loving people be enough? Why? And I have to say it's their teachings. Like people don't really just think people are that disgusting just because of their skin. And then I think all of the things that the church has been teaching, it's horrible. And for the members that don't know about this and the members that don't know this doctrine, it's horrible. It's really, really bad.

John Dehlin [02:18:31] Which teaching?

Chanel Achenbach [02:18:32] Specifically the teachings that black people are cursed, that black people are marked, and that we did really horrible things in a pre existence and that's why we deserve to be hurt by police. That's why we deserve anything that we have. And that's why we are wicked, terrible. Looting people is because of our choices and that the spirit is withdrawn from us because of who we are.

John Dehlin [02:18:55] So it's not just the racist teachings that are racist in and of themselves. You're saying some of the Mormons, you know, use those racist teachings to, to either justify or feel good about or even perpetuate bad behavior, horrible behavior.

Chanel Achenbach [02:19:12] Because to, to the thing. I think that was a first time that, that I felt I was broken. Not that first guy that was holding my hand telling me him to me. I don't know why that was funny. It was, I think it was his face. He was like, you know, I need to go find a white Chanel. Okay, love you. And then he was gone. But this other one I think broke me for the simple fact we were. The situation was like for two years. And I remember he was always like, like we didn't fight. We never had disagreements if we disagree. Well, if we disagree about something, it was never like, you see people having these blowout fights. It was never like that. Anytime we disagreed, it was always respectful with kindness, with. I was a single mom. He helped me with, with vehicles. He helped me. If do you need something? What do your kids need? He was wonderful. He came to my house, we went to Int Institute together, we went to church. I mean it was just great. He even visited with me to the Genesis group. He went with me to, to one of those because he was trying to understand he was so racist. He was so racist. And. But he was trying, I could tell he was trying. And I can see how badly he fought within himself to get over it because he would get mad at himself about me, that if he liked me and I remember he would get frustrated and be like, I, I like I'm not supposed to like black people. My family said if I ever dated or Married a black person, they would kill me. This is wrong. This is wrong. This is wrong. And I was like, dude, what do you mean it's wrong? And he was like, this. This. This situation is wrong. Like, black people are not supposed to mix. You understand that. You know the doctrine. You know what the church teaches. And I was like, but here you are. So I'm kind of confused. So this went on for, like, two years. And I thought it was great, but it really wasn't until the day he came over and he was kind of irritable. And I was like, what's up? And he's like, we need to talk. And I'm like, okay. And he's like, give me your scriptures. I give him my scriptures. He opens up to second Nephi 5. 21. And he reads it. And he reads it, like, with the mad face. And then he looks at me like. Like, do you understand? Do you get it? We can't mix. No matter what we think or what we feel, this is wrong. We're going to be damned. Our children going to be damned. We're going to be hurt. Our families are going to be hurt. This can't work. And I was like, so the whole time you knew I was black? It's not like I just surprised you with it. I've been black the whole time, and you're just now figuring out that you can't mix? Got it. He's like, no, this is wrong. This is wrong. And I was reading my journal, which is so painful to read because on a pretty consistent basis, me thinking how great it was wasn't all that great. Because he would get mad at himself and say, I'm not attracted to you. I can't be attracted to you. I am not attracted to you. And I'm taking this. These are like slaps to my face. But I'm. I'm taking it because I'm like, he can't mean that because he's here. But he wouldn't hold my hand, though. He would freak out. He was just like. Like. Like he wanted to throw up because of the color of my hand. I remember, like, I couldn't take that now. Oh, my gosh. But I did. I did. I did. I just wanted his acceptance so bad. He wasn't all that either. But to me, to just be told I was so gross because of my skin and to see how mad he was at himself and how disappointed at himself that he could like a black woman was so disgusting to him. It was. And so the nail on the coffin for that Is. I was devastated. Devastated. He's like, so we're done. It's done. And he left. I called my home teacher was upset. Home teacher came over, gave me a blessing. I still was not taking that well. So I thought, I got to go talk to my bishop, because if my bishop can say that he's misunderstanding, then my bishop can tell him he's misunderstanding that scripture.

Margi Dehlin [02:23:28] Scripture.

Chanel Achenbach [02:23:29] I go to my bishop, and again, another person's angry. He was so just like, grossed out by me even asking. I remember I asked him, I said, bishop, I am dating a young man who's saying, we can't date, we can't marry. And the bishop was like, okay, like, what's wrong? Like, he thought maybe we had a sexual sin or something. I said, well, he's white. And. And right when I said that, that bishop just was like, like, like put off. And I was like, well, we've been, you know, seeing each other for like two years and this and this. And he was just like, hey, stop. He's like, utah is not ready for this. Not. I'm not ready for this. The church is not ready for this. He said, utah is not ready for this. And I said, ready for what? He said, interracial marriage. This is not a good thing. So he's a priesthood holder. And he is correct. You are not supposed to mix. And I was like, okay, so we go to institute together. We don't commit any sexual sins. We are good friends. My kids love him. Seriously. And the bishop was. He was like, like sinking in his chair. And he was like, full of contempt and disdain. He was just like, okay, I already told you. I don't know what more you need me to tell you. So I just went home and I think I cried about that for months. It was just because I can't change my skin. Like, I. Don't you think I asked for this in the former life? I don't see how I could have asked for this. There's no way in hell I would ask for this so that I can then pass this on to my kids. To think that their skin is gross. To think that their skin is disgusting and cursed and marked and that everything bad happens to them is because of their preexistent choices. That's evident in their skin color today. That that determines their worth and their value and their attitudes on life because of before. The reason why your looters and welfare recipients and these horrible, terrible people is because you did not choose God in the pre existence and you didn't even have the Courage to make a choice at all. You didn't even choose Satan. That is what we're taught.

John Dehlin [02:26:00] I'm so sorry. Thank you for sharing.

Margi Dehlin [02:26:05] It feels so. I don't know, it just feels so intense that on some level, you know, you live in an environment, a world, a culture, you know, and that's one thing you're absorbing kind of messaging around race in America. Right. But then you kind of make this attempt at safety, attempt at hope, attempt it by, you know, joining this religion. And it is just. Yeah, I'm just so sorry for your experience that in this place where you're face to face with, with people, you have relationship with people, you're, you know, showing up and repeatedly you are feeling like such a violent thing. Things from human beings, you know, just. Yeah, I'm just so sorry for that.

Chanel Achenbach [02:27:05] I. I think people don't get it because they can't relate. It's not relatable to everybody. And I think a thing that they can relate to is money. Imagine that maybe, because remember I said in the beginning I felt love and valued, and I thought that I was receiving all this love and sweetness. And then it turned into. It's like you marry this man that's showing you the world and then he starts beating you later. That's what it was like. It got worse. But it's like. So imagine your, Your children, your. Your. It's three siblings, okay? You all are talking all the time and you talk about your parents and everybody's happy. And then 10 years later you find out that your parents have secretly been. Been giving the two children 50 grand a year, not giving you any. And celebrating those children that are getting the 50 grand because they're doing great, they're buying things, they haven't given you anything. And you're busting your ass, you're doing everything right, but they've had a little bit of extra help that you didn't know about. So you're thinking it's all just you and how are they, man, where I'm working the same and just as hard as them. Why are they getting these things and I'm not? And so then you find out at year after year after year, these two siblings have been getting 50 grand and you've not getting anything. Not that you deserve it, but just that not only are they giving it to them to help them prosperity, they are now making fun of you because you're not prospering. But you don't know that they've been given that to them to help them do better. And they're like, well, you suck, you know. Huh? Jenny has a, you know, a million dollar house and you only have a hundred thousand dollar house. I mean, what's your problem? And you're like, yeah, what is my problem? Jenny and Jake, man, they're doing great. And we work at the same job. Like, what am I doing wrong? I, I, I've got to figure it out. And then you keep trying harder and harder and harder, but they keep getting this money that you don't know about to help them. That's what it feels like. It's like you're doing everything you can. You're reading your scriptures, you're going to the temple, you're avoiding all your friends that could be naughty or bad or apostate. Just because you're trying so hard and it's, it will never be good enough. Enough because they're receiving help and because they're praising them with that to make them think that they're, they are better. And you're sitting here going, what could I possibly do to be better? I don't know anymore to do. And then you ask them, is there something I can do? And they're like, nope, you just suck. And you're like, yeah, I do, I do suck, you know? And that's, that's what it's like.

John Dehlin [02:30:09] I'm so sorry.

Chanel Achenbach [02:30:11] Oh, me too. I can't believe I let it go so long.

John Dehlin [02:30:21] So after, I guess there was. You went many years after your mission before you got married, is that right?

Chanel Achenbach [02:30:28] Yeah. So I got home. See, my mission was 93 to 95. I got married in 90.

John Dehlin [02:30:36] 1998 and Ninja marrying a Mormon guy maybe. Anything you want to say about that first man?

Chanel Achenbach [02:30:44] Yes. And it's, it's already out there. So I don't have a problem commenting on. Everybody already knows about it.

John Dehlin [02:30:48] Let me, let me. Maybe it was dating prior to marriage, super hard. Like very hard. So if you're in San Antonio while you're dating as a returned missionary, you're an adult, you're not supposed to have sex, but you're, it's probably hard to find Mormon guys. So was that, what was that like, either dating or not dating as a return missionary?

Chanel Achenbach [02:31:11] Just didn't date because it wasn't from a lack of trying. It was a lack of, it was the, you're cursed. It was, we can't mix with you. It was Chanel. It's just not gonna happen.

John Dehlin [02:31:22] Like these are like singles wards.

Chanel Achenbach [02:31:24] Oh yeah. I even. And singles wars in San Antonio. Singles wards here in Utah. I even taught. I even taught celestial marriage knowing I'm not getting married. Yeah, I taught that.

John Dehlin [02:31:34] Before your first marriage?

Chanel Achenbach [02:31:36] Before my first marriage.

John Dehlin [02:31:37] Okay. You came to Utah before your first marriage, huh?

Chanel Achenbach [02:31:40] My. I got married here.

John Dehlin [02:31:41] Oh, okay. So what. What brought you from San Antonio to Utah?

Chanel Achenbach [02:31:45] So I went to that lady and live with her in Missouri. And that was wonderful. She was amazing. Absolutely amazing, her and her children. And then from there I went. I came to Utah specifically for massage school for Utah College of Massage Therapy, because of. My mission companion had told me that Utah had the best one in the nation. And they did. I researched it, and I was like, okay, I'll come to Utah. And so her family was here. She was here. And so I came to Utah, went to school, did massage, But I was trying to date then too, but it just wasn't. And the weird thing is, there was a guy. I was seen, and. Oh, I did have one boyfriend, and I lived with his family for a short time because the. The family I was living with, the. The girl, she. She wasn't doing very well. She wasn't. She was trying to control me and telling me, you need to be home when I get home, I want to see you. And if you're not here when I get home, I'm gonna throw your clothes on the lawn. I was like, whatever. So I went and lived with my boyfriend and stuff. Family, interesting. They. He. He was fine. He didn't care about race. They kind of did. And there was a lot of microaggressions and a lot of things.

John Dehlin [02:33:01] This is a white family.

Chanel Achenbach [02:33:02] The white family. But they weren't cruel. It was just ignorance and cluelessness, just some of the things they said. But I. I could see that they saw me from me. And they're like, you know what? She's fine, so we. We can be nice to her. And that's what I got. And they were good. Good. They. Microaggression happened a lot, but they were good. Like, they didn't. They weren't saying anything to my face. Like, I never felt. I knew they thought stuff, and I knew the surrounding people thought stuff, but they never made me feel unsafe.

Margi Dehlin [02:33:37] What are some examples of. When you're talking about microaggressions?

Chanel Achenbach [02:33:42] Like, things like, well, you know how black people are. Okay, how are they. Or, you know, so is it true that black people, you know, things like, do you know. So is it true, like, black people, like, watermelon and chicken and, you know, stuff like that? Just like. Like. Like small, little things where. Well, I like It. I like watermelon, I like chicken, but I don't like them together. And. Well, what about this?

Margi Dehlin [02:34:06] Or.

Chanel Achenbach [02:34:08] So, I mean, just like, things. Or about my hair, you know, how come you don't have an afro? Don't black people have afros? And braids are like rope. And you just like small things like that. Nothing overtly white supremacy or just like,

John Dehlin [02:34:26] where are you from?

Chanel Achenbach [02:34:27] Yeah, nothing. They never said the N word. Nothing like that. It was more just like microaggressions. Like things like, well, you know, black men can jump or, you know, just stuff like that. Jabs like that, you know, or, you know, teasing him. Is it different kissing a black girl than it is because they got fuller lips and, you know, just stupid things like that. You know, dumb things.

Margi Dehlin [02:34:56] So.

Chanel Achenbach [02:34:57] And. And that. That was just for part course, you know, people would say things like that. And I was like, yeah, okay. And. But then things were starting not to work out. It was getting really weird with him. But it wasn't because I was black with him. He was bipolar and he was struggling bad. And so one minute he'd be fine. And so that was starting to die down and. And I was at the singles ward, so there was other people I started to meet. And there was this one guy that I really liked a lot, and he knew I liked him back. And throughout my friendships, they would never, ever claim we were dating, even though we were dating. But they would never say, you're my girlfriend. But we'd go to movies, we'd hang out, we'd do things, you know, but they would refuse to say I was their girlfriend.

Margi Dehlin [02:35:45] So it was like hiding. Yeah.

Chanel Achenbach [02:35:46] And it was always, I'm gonna find something better. It was always like, hey, you're cool. I remember this one guy, he's like, you're cool, but, you know, I'm holding out. I. You know, you're fine. We can hang out, we can be friends, but I'm gonna marry a white girl. This is why we have to have white children. They have to be blonde hair, blue eyes, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, yeah, whatever. So funny because like, four years later, he tried to contact me. And I laughed and I was like, dude, no, go away. But that's how it was. It was like these. These men. And then the. There was another one that was a lot older than me. And his thing was weird. His was a conquest thing. He said, I think I was 25, and I think he was like 40, maybe 37, 40. And he said he was. He was looking at me Weird. And I finally looked up at him. I was like, you good? And he was like, I heard you. Black women are exotic. I was like, exotic. He's like, like a panther. Like a leopard. And I was like, ew. What? And then I started laughing because I'm like, okay, so he's joking. And he's like, no. He's like, like, I think I need to try some chocolate. And I was like, wait, is he propositioning me? Like, ew. I was like, that's what you. No. He was like, we're not going to date. But I heard that you guys are. They say bang Bangles. Bengals. I heard you guys are Bengals in bed. And I was like, oh, my gosh. I called my girlfriend. I was like, do you know what he said? Yeah, so. So for him, it was like some weird, fetish, creepy thing. Like, I heard you guys are Bengals and you're. He was like, rawr. And I was like, oh, my gosh, dude, this is so weird. But it was that. And I remember him saying, remember, we're not gonna date, but I just want some chocolate. I want to try some chocolate. And I was like, oh, that is not a turn on. That is just really creepy weird. It's gonna, like. Like put me in the basement, like on Criminal Minds or something. It was. It was just weird. And so I didn't talk to him anymore. It was. It was just too bizarre. So it's like stuff like that. So it was either, like, fetish sizing, kind of creepy sexual stuff with no commitment, or it was them mad at themselves. Like they had disappointed God in themselves for even possibly considering a black woman. Yeah, that was so offensive. Because the one guy I told you was like. When I was reading my journal, either I imagined it or it happened, but he was, like, hitting himself. This is wrong. I. I just can't be attracted to you. It was, like, punishing himself. And that was offensive. That was so offensive. But I was like, he's nice. He treats me good, I think. But he was mad at himself.

Navigating Relationships and Church Teachings on Race

Margi Dehlin [02:38:40] Can I ask you a question during this time? So we kind of have. From 18 until now, we're at kind of 25, it sounds like. And it's just. It feels like you are repeatedly having experiences where you are told on some level you're depraved, you're not good enough, you're not, like, aversion people want. You're not white, you're not. Whatever. All. All these. It just feels like you're having these compounded experiences with other human beings during this time. Did you have any relationships during this time where people were, like, just celebrating you, like, just literally seeing it? Sounds like the woman, the one woman you mentioned.

Chanel Achenbach [02:39:35] Oh, yeah, she did.

Margi Dehlin [02:39:36] Right. But like anyone else during this time, friends, people you that honestly could just like, shine a light on your already whole and glorious self, like, as you are.

John Dehlin [02:39:50] And you kind of mean in Utah, right?

Margi Dehlin [02:39:52] Yeah, I'm just kind of saying actually from 18 to 20, like the minute she's like repeatedly getting these messages, particularly in the church, because this is the community in the system that she's in that are just. It's like a brow beating. It's like always coming up just on so many levels. Violent, overt, covert. Just all the things, you know. Did you have anyone? Because I'm. I'm just feeling like a bit of the psychological impact of what it would be like to just have that day in, day out. Like, that is what you're getting from people. You're not being seen. It's all like a projection of these people, you know, in this horrible way. So did you have any, I don't know, friends were in your immediate sphere that were able to really see you? Because it just sounds. It sounds like incredibly wounding.

Chanel Achenbach [02:40:51] I thought so. I thought so. And then the truth comes out and it's crushing. I wish I didn't know, to be honest. I should know. So at that time, there was a few friends that were cousins of some of these people that I hung out with. And she was Latina, so I thought, oh my gosh, she loves me. We hung out. It was great. She married a white guy who was ultra conservative, far right, and things started getting really weird. And her brother. Oh my gosh, I. I remember I asked him. This was still right after my mission, and I was trying to hang out with the single adults. He was saying that so and so was attractive. And so and so was attractive. Oh, gosh, stupid me. But I remember I asked him, I'm like, do you think I'm attractive? And I remember his face. He was like, Well, You're not unattractive. And I was like, okay. And. And he was Hispanic and all the women that he liked were white women.

Margi Dehlin [02:42:17] He.

Chanel Achenbach [02:42:17] He was showing me the girls in the ward that he liked. The other one that was telling me that we can hang out but not be boyfriend and girlfriend was. Was the one also was explaining about the blonde hair, blue eye. So no, wasn't being celebrated. And then some of the girlfriends I had, we hung out and we had fun. I mean, we had fun. Oh, My gosh, I forgot about this. Oh, my gosh. I forgot about, like, what is so wrong with me? I was. I wish they could have said, you're too fat, you stink, you're ugly. It was skin all the time, this one. We were really, really close, and I think we're like best friends. But I. I did have a crush on him, and I think I misunderstood some stuff going on between us. And so I told that lady that I said treated me well, and she told the aunt of this guy because I really thought maybe, you know, him and I were going to get together. And he flipped out. And before that, him and I were like this. He flipped out and he's like, did you tell so and so that we're getting married? And I was like, no. And he was like, look. And I was like, first of all, I never said anything like that. I said that I liked you. And he was like, no, no, no, no, no. Listen, listen, listen, listen, listen. And I had forgotten about that. This thing with race. And his aunt was the person who had told me a couple years ago, there's no racism. You guys are misunderstanding things. You're over exaggerating. You're offended because you want to be offended. There is no racism. I'm telling you, you're misunderstanding. And then other people within that community that I was in was also telling me stuff like, well, black people, you know, you have to understand, Democrats, liberals, are all Marxists, you know, And I'm just like, so you. None of you guys are understanding me. Nobody's celebrating me. Nobody's celebrating black people because black people are less. Black people are worse than. They're bad. They're looters. That's what I kept hearing. They're looters. Even though everybody else was looting, littering. And the other friend, all these people, I'm thinking, are my friend. It was like, there's a movie I watched, it's called Lovebirds. There's a scene where they're in this room and everybody has masks on. Everybody has masks on and like sheets or robes or whatever. And they're trying to find out the two people that shouldn't be there. And so they say, okay, on account of three, I'm going to have you remove your mask. And so they count to three, and just this, this couple removes their mask and everybody's in mask. The point of that is that they kind of outed them, but not themselves. And I feel like people started outing themselves. People I felt comfortable with, people that were in the room when I had my Babies that were that intimate with me were now removing their hoods, mask or whatever, and they did not care and was like, 2016 was awful because now everybody that I was friends with in that time, right after my mission now was showing me that they are very racist and not. And racism is different than white supremacy. Racism is soft compared to white supremacy. Now these people that I was comfortable with in this room are now showing themselves as white supremacists, saying that black people that I need to start listening to Candace Owens, that I need to not be liberal, that I've changed, that I'm awful person, that I'm bad, that I'm wicked. Kamala Harris is wicked. All black women are wicked. Look at Michelle Obama. Black women are masculine. They look like men. All these people that I let my guard down with and told them everything about me are now the people I shouldn't have trusted. Now I'm knowing what they really think about black women. They're not even talking about black men. These women, these girls that I thought were celebrating me were not celebrating me. They were celebrating what I could do to make the church look amazing. This black woman thinks the church is great while every other black person is saying the church is racist. No, it is not. Because Chanel says it's great. Now are revealing themselves. That was. That was. That was probably the most scariest time. Because how could I have been that comfortable that whole time knowing they felt this way for years? That was eye opening. That was terrifying. Absolutely terrifying.

Margi Dehlin [02:47:23] Yeah.

Chanel Achenbach [02:47:26] No, I didn't feel celebrated at all. Unless. Unless I gave a good talk. The only time I got patted on the back or told I was amazing is when I did missionary work or when I gave it to all walk. Right, that's it.

Margi Dehlin [02:47:39] Kind of when you fell in line.

Chanel Achenbach [02:47:40] Or if I did, if I was quiet, if I sang because I sing and if I sang a hymn, if I sang a ensemble, it was a church song, then I was great. They thought I was great. If I came with them, with the missionaries or I held the missionaries over for dinner, I was great. But if I was anything of Chanel, no. Playing cards is evil. Dancing is evil. You're too loud. Your hair is too much. You need more neutral color, natural color hair. Your nails are too long. Prostitutes have long, red nails. Red lipstick is for. I mean, harlots. Oh, I remember. That was the one. Harlot. Jezebel. That's because I usually have long nails and I usually have color nails, like blue and green and red and bright pink and yellow. And I usually have blue hair and blonde hair and they're like, no, you need to be more natural. You are. That is not virtuous. That is not lovely of good report. No, don't feel celebrated at all.

Margi Dehlin [02:48:56] Yeah,

John Dehlin [02:49:00] I keep saying it, but I keep wanting to say I'm so sorry.

Chanel Achenbach [02:49:04] And I did endure it. I'm just tired of it.

Margi Dehlin [02:49:09] But enduring too. You take a hit, right? I was taking lots of it psychologically, I would imagine. Physically, how it plays out on physical health, stress.

Chanel Achenbach [02:49:18] And where was I gonna go, though? They made it very clear. Where are you gonna go? Go? You don't have your family anymore. You don't have any of your friends. If you leave here, what community will you have? Where will you go? That was a big. It was like. It was a Mormon out or something. Where will you go? Really? Are we really that bad just because a couple of people are racist? I was like, they're right. Where am I going to go? If I leave this church, I will leave, lose all community and all support. If I take my name off the record. If I walk away, who will be the support of my children.

John Dehlin [02:50:01] In part two? We're going to come to kind of your. Let's just say, faith crisis and kind of the walking away in the church. But before we get there, so. So you. You have had a few. You have a few children and you've been married. You've. You've had at least one Mormon marriage, is that right? Do you want to talk anything about your marriages or children?

Chanel Achenbach [02:50:27] Yeah, I don't mind talking about that. He was not. So he was supposed to be a member. He hadn't told me that he wasn't a member. He had been next to me.

John Dehlin [02:50:35] Sorry, can I ask you one quick question for that? I'm sorry, I was. I. I just spaced it for a second. Second. I would think, given the way Utah and Mormons work, that if a. If a black woman who's a convert or a black man who's a convert comes to Utah and wants to get married, but there's this kind of underlying or even explicit or over no interracial marriage that they would have, like wards or groups or clubs, some way for single black, black Mormons to meet each other, to find each other and to get married now, maybe there's just not enough of them to even have a club.

Chanel Achenbach [02:51:13] Correct. They had Genesis group.

John Dehlin [02:51:15] So would you. Is it. Did you go to Genesis group as a single?

Chanel Achenbach [02:51:19] I did and it did. It was not happy. It was. It was. I don't even know.

John Dehlin [02:51:23] Maybe tell People, what you know about Genesis group.

Chanel Achenbach [02:51:26] I don't even know what that was. I went. I went with that guy who broke up with me and told me that he couldn't marry me and read me scripture. He went with me.

John Dehlin [02:51:33] White guy.

Chanel Achenbach [02:51:33] The white guy. He went with me because we were like. He's like, let's take the kids. Let's try to. He was trying. I know he was trying.

John Dehlin [02:51:39] So. So maybe. Maybe I'll try. And you tell me if this sounds right, that. That for many, many years, maybe even pre1978, there would be people like Darice Gray, people who were black Mormons, who wanted fellowship, they wanted a community of other black Latter Day Saints. And so they form this group called the Genesis Group, which the best I can think of it is as a support group for. For black Mormons that don't have any other black friends, or they're just looking for support for how hard it is to be black in Utah or to be a black Mormon in Utah. But they would meet weekly. Is that right?

Chanel Achenbach [02:52:20] Once a month.

John Dehlin [02:52:21] Once a month.

Chanel Achenbach [02:52:22] Once a month. Like on a Saturday or Sunday. I don't remember. I went once and I was like, no, I'm not doing this. It was just.

John Dehlin [02:52:27] Okay.

Chanel Achenbach [02:52:28] It's like the best way I can describe that is like, if you. Okay, so whatever culture, not even white, but just like whatever culture you're in. And now you're being. Let's say that your culture is to bake. All you guys do is bake. You've been taught to bake, and now you're in a group that thinks baking is weird and strange. You're not going to be comfortable in that group. I'm a black woman. Just because I'm black doesn't mean I could relate to these people because I'm not around them. Who am I around? Who's molded me since I was 18? White women. I'm white. White culture. Anything about Mormonism and white. I don't. I don't play cards anymore. I don't dance. I don't do any of that. So now I'm supposed to relate to these people. I don't know.

John Dehlin [02:53:20] Know.

Chanel Achenbach [02:53:21] So. So now. So now they're like, just. Just go over there. Go to your people. I don't know my people. That's. That's like. If you drop me off in Ghana right now and say, good luck, you're with your people, we might look the same. We're nothing alike.

Margi Dehlin [02:53:34] Right?

Chanel Achenbach [02:53:34] That's what they did. They didn't want to deal with it. Because I remember the bishop. He was like, a couple years ago, he's like, there is a black bishop. Why do you want a cookie? What does that do? The black bishop's married to a white woman. He's. He's like, I understand. He doesn't do anything culturally black. Black. So how could he relate to me? Just because of his skin color?

Margi Dehlin [02:53:55] Right.

Chanel Achenbach [02:53:56] It doesn't matter. Yeah, they think it does.

Margi Dehlin [02:53:58] So much sense. Yep.

John Dehlin [02:53:59] So they'd kind of taken your culture away from you when you joined.

Chanel Achenbach [02:54:03] Absolutely. Easy. Stripped it and. And told me it was bad.

John Dehlin [02:54:08] So they're saying, be white, be white, be white. But then when you come to Utah, no one wants to marry you. It almost feels like a cultural ghetto to create a group, like the Genesis group and say, we'll just go there.

Chanel Achenbach [02:54:19] I thought that was terrible. I didn't think that was a flexi. Thought it was. Was. Why can't you. Okay. So you can integrate Polynesian culture, Hispanic culture, every other culture, Hawaii, but you can't integrate black culture in anything. That made no sense to me. Y'. All. Y' all go to your building. Everybody else is integrated. Look at the big. Polynesian culture is huge.

John Dehlin [02:54:39] Yeah.

Chanel Achenbach [02:54:40] They. They, they. They engulf that in culture halls and stuff. What about black people? They won't do it. Even Hispanic. Any places I've been. Yeah. Wow. Not black.

John Dehlin [02:54:55] Yeah. Like. Like, we sent missionaries to Tonga and Samoa, Hawaii, like, really early on. And, like, almost the. Much most of the islands all converted.

Chanel Achenbach [02:55:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:55:06] But, like, we were intentionally not sending missionaries to Africa because we didn't want black members because, one, they were cursed, two, we were racist, and three, they couldn't really get the priesthood or really exactly lead in the church. So. So we just have over a century of just like. Yeah. We don't even know you guys.

Chanel Achenbach [02:55:27] Go play over there, and we'll talk to you later.

Margi Dehlin [02:55:30] And we're the ones that created that.

John Dehlin [02:55:31] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:55:31] Like, we created the structure where they couldn't do that.

John Dehlin [02:55:34] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:55:34] And then didn't. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:55:36] Didn't it come. Yeah. So. And then there's just the whole racism, just generally United States, you know, fear and suspicion and, you know, that makes a kid running around in a hoodie get shot just because he's running around in a hoodie. Exactly the wrong skin color.

Chanel Achenbach [02:55:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:55:53] So, like, how do you. If you're white Mormons, Republican in Utah, how do you integrate this culture into your white Utah culture, which is kind of whitest of white almost. Right.

Chanel Achenbach [02:56:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:56:05] Yeah.

Chanel Achenbach [02:56:05] I mean, just that's. That's why I'm speaking, John? Just awareness. Because. Because there's too many now that are so scared because they want to integrate. They don't know how. So if I can't. If I don't talk about this, they don't know. You think that girl thought it would. It was cruel and horrible to put a belt around my neck like a noose. No, that's why she did it. But if I talk about that, yes, it's uncomfortable, yes, it's painful, but then people learn why it's wrong, why it's harmful, why blackface is harmful instead of justifying it.

John Dehlin [02:56:44] So you. They end up. I guess you end up finding someone to marry. Miracle of miracles in Utah. I guess I say that tongue in cheek.

Chanel Achenbach [02:56:55] Well, the thing about it is, how it came about was a white person came to me from a single adult roster and said, hey, I'm your visiting teacher. And she stares at me and says, oh, my gosh, you would be perfect for my friend because. Because you're black and he's black. Because I know one other person. I said, you know, a black Mormon? She's like, oh, yeah. He was a companion of my. My husband. And I was like, really? She's like, yeah. Oh, my gosh, you're pretty. You would be perfect for him. Why would I be perfect for him and not her brother?

Margi Dehlin [02:57:26] Yeah. Yeah.

Chanel Achenbach [02:57:27] Why wouldn't I be perfect? Her brother's a redhead. I like redheads. My husband's a redhead. Why would. Why. Seriously, why wasn't I perfect for her brother? But I was perfect for this black man that she didn't know if we got along or would like each other. Why was I perfect for him? Why not her husband's friends or her friends? Why him? Because you're black and he's black. Perfect match. So intrigued. I'm like a black Mormon. Mormon besides me. And it's a male. I'll talk to him.

John Dehlin [02:57:56] So you hadn't really dated a black Mormon up until that?

Chanel Achenbach [02:57:58] I never dated a black Mormon.

John Dehlin [02:58:00] Whoa.

Margi Dehlin [02:58:00] Ever?

John Dehlin [02:58:01] Seven, eight, nine years?

Margi Dehlin [02:58:02] Never.

John Dehlin [02:58:02] Oh, wow.

Chanel Achenbach [02:58:03] That's why I was like, oh, okay, I'll. I'll talk to him while he was in Missouri. So we talked over the phone. She sent me a picture of him. He wouldn't send me a picture of him, but she had an old picture of him. And I was like, it's okay. And so we started talking, talking, talking, talking, talking, talking. And then they flew him down. Either he flew down. I don't remember, but I knew he was coming. I told my. My My girlfriends, hey, he's coming down. They're like, cool, we'll come over. We'll meet him. So it was my best friend at the time and her husband and her kids. And we're like, okay, he's gonna come. So he comes over, and instantly I'm like, that's a no. There was something about his demeanor that just shut me down. And I was like, this is a friend zone thing. We're friends. We're gonna be friends. I. I liked him as I could tell that this was not going to. He came in, he was loud. He was rowdy, which didn't bother me because I'm a loud, wild person. And my friend looks at me. I look at her, and we're like. We just shake our head. But I said, okay, I'm gonna be nice. We got. It was just something. And so we go to dinner. Everything's fine. I'm just like. I don't know, Just something off. So anyway, I. We still dating. We're still talking, still kind of going on. I'm talking to her, who introduced us, met her husband, and so now it's forced on me because I like them. I thought this girl was light, I mean, nice, and her husband. And then I met another friend of his, and so they all were kind of pushing me on him. You're pretty. Be with him. You're black. Be with him. And I was like, I don't want to be with him. And they're like, oh, no, no, no, no. You're misunderstanding. You guys are perfect for each other. You're perfect for each other. You're perfect for each other. What makes us perfect? So then I started talking to my branch president. I was like, like, I'm not feeling this. I was, like, hyperventilated. I'm like, this is not working. He goes, sister. And I'm like, what? He goes, are you reading your scriptures? I'm like, yes. He starts going through the questions. Are you going to the temple? Are you paying your tithing? I'm like, yes, yes, yes. He's like, then what's the problem? Any two Mormons can make it, Especially two of the same race. Two black people that are Mormon, Why wouldn't they make it? They are the perfect couple. Why would we be perfect? So I was like, but I don't. I don't. I'm not feeling it. He's like, what is it that you're not feeling? And I'm like, it. I. Something's off about this situation. I don't. I think he's Nice. And I think we'd be great friends. I think we would be absolutely fantastic. I'm not feeling. And he was like, okay, you need to go home, read your scriptures. Do you not trust your priesthood holders? And I was like, I do. And says, we feel that this would be perfect.

John Dehlin [03:00:40] Perfect.

Chanel Achenbach [03:00:41] Okay. Is he hurting you? No. Is he beating you? No. Is he trying to make you do something you don't want to do? I'm like, no. He goes, then what's the problem? What's the problem? And I'm like, it is me. Oh, my gosh.

John Dehlin [03:00:56] Just like when you went to the temple.

Margi Dehlin [03:00:59] Comes back around again.

Chanel Achenbach [03:01:00] It was me because they're right. I was reading my scriptures. He didn't hit me. He. He wasn't awful to me. He didn't say mean things. So it's me. And I was like, you're right. I'll. I'll pray about it. I'll. I'm sorry. I'm just scared maybe, you know. So I started talking myself into it. And the more and more I get around him, I'm like, something is off, something is not. Long story short, no, he was not even a member. Not anymore. He hadn't told me that he had

John Dehlin [03:01:30] been a member before.

Chanel Achenbach [03:01:31] He had been a member.

John Dehlin [03:01:32] Okay.

Chanel Achenbach [03:01:33] But see, they didn't check. They just assumed he was perfect for me because of what he looked like. He's black, so there's no reason.

John Dehlin [03:01:40] Black guy.

Chanel Achenbach [03:01:41] So whatever I was feeling here, even though I was doing all those things.

John Dehlin [03:01:45] Yeah.

Chanel Achenbach [03:01:45] Was my bad.

John Dehlin [03:01:48] So you married him. So we got married in the temple or.

Chanel Achenbach [03:01:51] No. Oh, my gosh, no. We couldn't get married in the temple because he told me that he. So there's temple questions, and one of the questions was something of this. Do you associate or empathize with any other religion or any other church or something like that? He said they took away his temple recommend because he had spoken at a Reorganized Religions ward at their. Because he was friends with them and his bishop found out and they took his temple recommend for that reason.

John Dehlin [03:02:18] RLDS Church?

Chanel Achenbach [03:02:19] Yes. Reorganized church. So I told the bishop that, thinking maybe they can do something because there was a. Wasn't a sin. It was just, you know, maybe a misstep on his part. And they said, no, that sounds about right. You know, he shouldn't have been giving talks in their ward. So I'll tell you what. Get married now, and in a year, go to the temple. I was like, well, you have to get married in the temple first. You said never to get Married, you know, don't get married civilly. First you have to go to the temple. I'm worthy. You know, I tried to reserve the Jordan River Temple, and they're like, no, no, no, no. Just get married now. And, you know, because you guys are good, you know, you don't want to wait that time, you know, I was like, but everybody else is getting married in the temple, and I'm worthy. I can get married in the temple. I want to get married in the temple. They're like, sister, just marry him. And then later on, you can just, you know, we'll. We'll go. So it's okay for everybody else to get married in temple but me? I'm the one that has to sacrifice and just do this thing, even though aim lower. Yeah. I was like, okay. So I'm telling him, I don't feel good about this. So then next thing I know, we're at a culture hall. He proposes to me in front of everybody. All these people that think we should be together that knew about it but me. So what am I doing? I'm just like, yeah, okay. I take this ring, and I'm like, oh, my gosh. I don't want to do this. I don't want to do this. I don't know what's going on. I feel weird. I like him, but I don't feel good about this. And we, you know, start planning this wedding. His family can't come. My family's not going to come. So we just go to the courthouse, we get married, but then we have this beautiful, huge reception. These. These wonderful members got it together. They were great. They all stepped up. All the Relief society women. I mean, they were great. They were. And I'm thinking, what the hell have I done here?

John Dehlin [03:04:04] So. Yeah. Can I ask if this is. If this analogy is coming to my mind? Mind. And it may be totally off, but I just want to offer it. Did you ever see the movie Get Out?

Chanel Achenbach [03:04:14] Of course I did.

John Dehlin [03:04:16] Remember, like, the big, rich white family and then the people of color in their lives.

Chanel Achenbach [03:04:23] Yep.

John Dehlin [03:04:23] And it, like, what would it be like to be surrounded by all these wealthy, powerful white people and you're trying to fit in?

Chanel Achenbach [03:04:30] Yep.

John Dehlin [03:04:30] And they all kind of act like they know what's best for you.

Chanel Achenbach [03:04:33] Yep.

John Dehlin [03:04:33] And you almost are just gonna do whatever they say because they're rich and powerful and they're the in culture, and you just want to fit in.

Chanel Achenbach [03:04:43] Who else are you going to fit in with? I've been cut off now from any other culture. I don't even know who I am anymore. I'm unrecognizable to my girlfriend that I've been friends with 40 something years, you know, since young, because she's like. And then they treated her bad when she came out. When she came out for our wedding to this man. She was my maid of honor. She came out with her boyfriend. We were talking about this probably three months ago. Two or three months ago. How badly they treated her because she was staying at a hotel with her boyfriend who she was unmarried to. They didn't even know her. And they were insulting her for staying with him. Oh, my gosh, that's bad. And she's like, I don't even like these people already. And now they're doing this. They didn't even know her. She was my friend. To support me, and they were giving her a hard time. And she's like, chanel, this is not. I don't feel good about this. Don't do this. You know, I've had so many people trying to say, chanel, no. That my friends, not the members of the church, members of the church were saying I wasn't spiritual enough. That they don't understand why two black people can't make it. Why two black Mormons can't do well. It's me.

Margi Dehlin [03:05:55] Me.

Chanel Achenbach [03:05:56] It's not him. It's me. And he's a priesthood holder. They didn't know that. Did they ask? Did they ask about his recommend? They asked about his membership. Nope. They assumed I was so good for him, but not for their sons, not for their brothers, not for their friends. Just great for this man

John Dehlin [03:06:18] and great as a spokesperson for the church, that the church loves black people.

Chanel Achenbach [03:06:22] You see this black color couple. There you go. See, we do have black members in the church.

John Dehlin [03:06:31] As. As we kind of wind up this first part, I'm. As I'm reflecting upon your story, I can't help but think about the enormous power the church ended up having over your life because you're. You're raised by a family that probably isn't perfect, but none are. And you know, by all accounts, you felt loved by your. You're loved in your family.

Chanel Achenbach [03:06:51] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:06:52] And you loved your culture. And yet all that was going on. And I was going to also mention this. 18 is such a vulnerable age because developmentally, you're almost supposed to differentiate. You're supposed to kind of rebel against your family because you're. You're flying from the nest, right? You're flying from the coop. So you're going to rebel. It's such a vulnerable time where the missionaries, the white missionaries show up, up. They project affluence, they project money and love and power and unity. You're at a time where you're going to be trying to differentiate from your parents anyway. You had a near death experience in a way.

Chanel Achenbach [03:07:29] Oh yeah.

John Dehlin [03:07:30] You have questions and they swoop in just at that right time. And it's like they took over your life, they took over your identity and you went on to like pay for a mission, sacrifice all that time, move to Utah, do your best to integrate into the culture. All along the way, they're telling you you're less than, you're less than, you're less than. They're showing you you're less than, you're less than, you're less than. They're literally discriminating against you, excluding you, making you feel. And you're coming back, and you're coming back for more. And you're trying harder and you're saying, it must be me. Let me try harder. To the point where you're, you're marrying a man you're not even really attracted to, but it's because you feel like that's what this white culture around you wants you to do. And then you arrive at the place where you don't even feel like you know who you are anymore. That's an incredible amount of power. It starts out with good intentions with, with sonic slushies or whatever they were.

Chanel Achenbach [03:08:32] Ocean water.

John Dehlin [03:08:33] Right, right. Like kindness and love bombing and sonic ocean water beverages. But it ends up 10, 15 years later with you being isolated from your family, isolated from your culture. And I, I hate to say it, isolated from yourself, married to a man that you never would have ever wanted to be married to. Is that, is that what happened? Am I reading that right?

Chanel Achenbach [03:09:03] That is exactly what happened. I let them change everything about me because I believed what they said. When they said God wants more from you. When they said you are cursed, you weren't valiant. You did these things. But the but is what got me. I was like really offended and mad when she first said that. But then when her face, when she said but, but, but you can fix it because now you're a member. Celebrate now. We could do this now. All you have to do is read your scriptures, endure to the end, serving your colleagues, go on a mission, and you are great. I was like, that's all I have to do to get this curse off me. Done. That's easy. I can do that. I want to do that. But. But still, it's like this. It's like when my kids do this to each other, hey, go tell him to go dance. And then the whole room is laughing at him because he's not doing this dance correctly. And they're like, did you see? He's thinking, he's doing great. They're like, yeah, do your dance. Do your dance. And he's dancing. And the whole time they're like, that's how it felt to really find out that they're all cheering me on. When they don't hope anything for me except for. For their amusement. Get out. Me and. Me and another friend always refer to that. That's what it's like. If you guys want to understand, watch. Get out. Because that is how it is. And that's. It's so weird. It's like that when they. She's stirring that and sends him into that place. I let them. They can. They had so much power and control over me. I let them.

Margi Dehlin [03:10:47] That reminds me to get out. And this is talked about extensively in the book Cast by Isabel Wilson.

Chanel Achenbach [03:10:54] I've read it.

Margi Dehlin [03:10:55] She speaks to that as well, don't you think?

Chanel Achenbach [03:10:57] Oh, yes, very much so.

Margi Dehlin [03:10:59] Yeah. So if you have any interest in, you know, learning more, that's a great resource for sure.

John Dehlin [03:11:09] Well, I. I mean, I just. I'm so, so sorry. Like, I feel responsible. Like, this is my people, and I feel like we. We did this to you. You know, even though I'm not in the church anymore, I still feel partly responsible for what happened.

Chanel Achenbach [03:11:29] It's so weird because 20 things could be true at once. And part of it, the members that are to blame are the ones that didn't want to hear or learn to be better. But who's to blame is the people that taught it. Them also feel. Feel fearful that if they didn't follow that, they, they. They couldn't get to the celestial kingdom. That's a lot of power over people.

John Dehlin [03:11:52] Yeah. Yeah. The church has way too much power. Religion can have way too much power on people over people. Well, maybe. Maybe this is a good place to end. Part 1 1. Is there anything else you want to talk about in your Mormon experience prior to. Kind of when you started, the crack started to really form for you.

Chanel Achenbach [03:12:18] I think the thing that leads into everything else is me always, like, so strong and trying to do. And them saying, sit your ass back down. And me say, well, no, no, I'm gonna go to school and I'm gonna sit down, because this is what you need to listen to. I'm your priesthood holder. Or the Most sinister thing about this whole thing, it wasn't the men, because that's patriarchy, misogyny.

Margi Dehlin [03:12:52] Sure.

Chanel Achenbach [03:12:53] The most sinister thing about this is that I'm 18, and everybody that's telling me what to do and molding me are all older white women telling me, how dare you? You're not virtuous. You're too wild. You're too this. And when I don't listen, then the love is withdrawn. I only love you if you listen to me and you do what I say. I have so many texts for them saying, do what I say. You're not listening to me. You're not listening to me. I know better than you. I'm married. I've only been married once. I have children. I have a house. You have nothing. Nothing. And I am better than you. This is a text from a friend. I am better than you because I live the gospel better than you, and because my life reflects what I do. She's mean as hell, but she's better than me because she has children that are living a great life and a good husband and a good house and good money in this. And I suck. That's not just her. These are all these women I thought were my friends are all now saying this to me.

Margi Dehlin [03:13:54] Wow. Yeah, that's.

Chanel Achenbach [03:13:58] That's all I want to say. That's more sinister than the men, because these are the ones I trusted.

Margi Dehlin [03:14:03] Yeah.

Chanel Achenbach [03:14:04] Intimately.

Margi Dehlin [03:14:05] I totally see that. Yep.

John Dehlin [03:14:08] Well, we'll leave that as kind of the. The cliffhanger for part two, because we'll come back.

Margi Dehlin [03:14:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:14:14] And in part two, we'll talk about. I mean, the marriage you just told us about lasted how long? Long.

Chanel Achenbach [03:14:20] See, that's what I'm saying. I think it was two years.

John Dehlin [03:14:22] Couple years.

Chanel Achenbach [03:14:23] I. I don't even remember what day. This was a mess. It was a. It was a blur. We're friends now, but.

John Dehlin [03:14:29] And you had a few kids with him.

Margi Dehlin [03:14:31] Uhhuh.

John Dehlin [03:14:31] Okay. Those are your first kids.

Chanel Achenbach [03:14:33] Yep. They're, like, 15 months apart, and they are so much fun. And I. Yeah. Great kids. Amazing kids.

John Dehlin [03:14:39] Okay. So. Well, Chanel Achenbach, thank you so much for part one of your story. Yeah, I'm feeling. I'm feeling very heavy things, but also so much gratitude because it's not your job to educate us, and this is a heavy thing for you to kind of be reliving probably.

Chanel Achenbach [03:15:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:15:02] But we're. We all need to learn. Like you say, we have to learn, and this is one way we can learn, you know, And. And hopefully it's a very generous way for you to help us learn.

Margi Dehlin [03:15:13] Yeah. And hopefully we can. We can take the baton and educate ourselves. Take that and run with it and start that process. But we're so, so grateful you're here.

Chanel Achenbach [03:15:25] Thank you. Thanks for letting me be here.

John Dehlin [03:15:27] Our pleasure. All right, well, thanks, everyone, for joining us. And please don't go away. Come right back for part two where we hear about the unraveling of Chanel Achenbach faith as a black Mormon woman in Utah. So stay tuned. Thanks again, everybody. Thanks, Chanel.

Part Two Begins: Marriage, Divorce, and Discipline

Part 2 of 3 · Ep. 1713

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is December 6, 2022, and we are back for part two of our epic interview with Chanel Achenbach. Hey, Chanel.

Chanel Achenbach [00:00:13] Hey.

John Dehlin [00:00:13] Welcome back.

Chanel Achenbach [00:00:14] Glad to be here.

John Dehlin [00:00:16] And of course, we are so thrilled to have Margi riding shotgun. Hey, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:20] Hey there.

John Dehlin [00:00:20] Welcome back.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:21] Thank you, babe.

John Dehlin [00:00:22] So if you haven't heard part one with Chanel Achenbach, pause this episode, go back and watch part one. We just shared a tiny short from Chanel's interview on Facebook, and it's already got over 500,000 views, something like 5,000 likes and like 2,000 shares. So you're already taking the world by storm, Chanel. Oh, how does that feel?

Chanel Achenbach [00:00:50] Scary.

John Dehlin [00:00:53] Just as a recap, or for those who are going to be obstinate and aren't going to go back and watch part one, we talked about Chanel growing up in San Antonio, joining the Mormon Church as a late teenager, how her family wasn't thrilled with that idea, but she had several loving Mormon individuals and families reach out to her, and she joined the church immediately. Almost within a few years, she went and served a mission in the South.

Chanel Achenbach [00:01:20] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:01:21] Right?

Margi Dehlin [00:01:21] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:01:22] And then ended up in Utah. And we talked about her first marriage and how she was just kind of corralled into a marriage that she probably should have never even gotten into. But there was a lot of Utah culture and Utah pressure and frankly, a lot of racist and kind of cultural expectations and microaggressions and doctrine that pushed her into a marriage that was doomed to fail. She had two children in that marriage, and that's kind of where we left off, but with a lot of important stories and context around racism within a Mormon context and just her experience. Would you add anything in terms of my summary of part one? Sure. Chanel.

Chanel Achenbach [00:02:13] No, I think that pretty much sums it up. It was like everything that happened led to other things.

John Dehlin [00:02:19] Yeah.

Chanel Achenbach [00:02:19] No, gosh, 30 something years. Yeah, 30 plus years. So that's a lot.

John Dehlin [00:02:25] And I guess we should add white supremacy along with racism, right? Yeah. Yeah. So thank you so much for part one, and we're just thrilled we're going to be talking about marriage two, the kids, and. And what comes after that. But maybe the main theme for today, overriding everything, the, The. The racism with. And. And white supremacy within Mormonism will be a constant theme throughout. But we're also going to talk about what eventually becomes Chanel's deconstruction from her beliefs in the Mormon Church. And then Margi's favorite part, and what we think is one of the most important parts, is Chanel's reconstruction and where she is now after deconstructing her orthodox Mormon faith. So that's what we're in for. And Jimmy Johnson's already been ordered for lunch. This is not an endorsement, but this will be. We'll probably have at least two parts to this interview and possibly a third part. But buckle in, everybody. This is a really important story. And Chanel, where should we pick up from here? I think, let's just say your first marriage, that should have never happened, and.

Chanel Achenbach [00:03:33] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:03:35] And where does that leave you? So you were temple married, right?

Chanel Achenbach [00:03:39] No.

John Dehlin [00:03:39] You weren't temple married. That's right. You weren't temple married in that first marriage.

Chanel Achenbach [00:03:43] Right.

John Dehlin [00:03:43] But still, there's a stigma to divorce within Mormonism. So what was it. What was. What was it like to have that marriage end and what was the aftermath in a. More. In the Mormon context?

Chanel Achenbach [00:03:55] What a very difficult time. Because first of all, you're going through a divorce and people get it wrong. They think because you want it initiated and submit for it, that it doesn't bother you. Yeah, it does. It's still a death of something. Rather, the marriage is good or not. It's still an uncertainty. And in a religious atmosphere and culture where you're supposed to be married and multiply and replenish the earth, you just failed that. So you're already failing. You already have black things that make you. You know, you're already in trouble for that or you're already less for that. And now you got divorced. You didn't get buried in the temple, and now you're divorced, lady, you are not going to do well in this environment. And so it was really hard because I had two. I had two children. And then not a. I don't even know if it was on purpose or culturally, what. But after that, we had friends. We lived in, like, a little apartment neighborhood, and the friends were members. And after that, things just went weird. Like, we didn't hang out anymore. It was a couple, some other couples, and our children didn't hang out anymore. They didn't know what to say to me. They didn't know what to do. I didn't know what to say or do. Everyone was uncomfortable. They didn't want to ask questions. But then they did ask questions, and then they just kind of like, just avoided. Like, I think it was worse avoiding me than to just say, hey, you're dumb for getting divorced. I think I could have Taken that better than just avoiding me Because I'm like, are they avoiding me because of me? Are they avoiding me because I'm divorced? Because before it was fine, you know, we all hung out, we talked. Even if those talks were uncomfortable, at least there was some engagement. Now it was like, here she comes, here she comes, here she comes. And I was just kind of like, I don't know what to do. So I talked to other friends who were single, had never been married. I'm like, I don't know what to do. Like, I don't feel like I'm getting Colleen's now. I feel like, you know, they're not, you know, why? Is it because I'm marked? Because I'm divorced? Is it because they're trying to be nice and think I don't need callings because, you know, I have more responsibility as a single mom? I don't know. But everybody was weird. It was like, okay, so that was uncomfortable.

John Dehlin [00:06:19] And that's got to be hard because that's kind of when you might need support the most.

Chanel Achenbach [00:06:24] A lot, right? Very much so.

John Dehlin [00:06:26] So to feel that support withdrawing right at the time you need it, that's gotta be hard.

Chanel Achenbach [00:06:30] Really hard. Because then I didn't have family here either. The church was. What was their substitution for family members of the church?

John Dehlin [00:06:39] Right.

Chanel Achenbach [00:06:40] So.

John Dehlin [00:06:41] And for me, one of the most powerful parts of last episode was kind of these racist curse of Cain teachings and the preexistence, unworthiness or fence sitting associated with the curse of Cain doctrine and dark sk. You know, you learning about that and just feeling like you were never enough, but then that you had to hustle to become good enough. So then you take all that that you should have never been carrying, and then you're pushed into a divorce that. Into a marriage that never should have happened because, look, we found a black guy. You know what I mean? And then that. It only puts you even further behind in. In your hamster wheel hustle to try and become worthy, right?

Chanel Achenbach [00:07:27] Very much so, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:30] Yeah. That's. I don't know. That sounds really hard.

Chanel Achenbach [00:07:34] It's. How do you manage that? How do you navigate that without anyone kind of saying, hey, so we are also black members. We've also been through it. And this is what you do now. There was none of that. It was just me trying to. Just being thrown in a water, not knowing how to swim, and being told, figure it out, you know, and trying to figure that out, and then trying to think about who you are, what you're supposed to do. You're you're already marked for. You're already starting behind. So, like at the, if you're going to run a 50 yard dash, everybody else starts on the, the line, you already back there, and they're telling you you're going to work harder, run faster. They're going to start on the line. You, you get back here and start. And you're like, okay, I'm in this race. And they are telling you the whole time you're starting back there, but guess what? You can do it. And if you do it, you're going to be rewarded. And you're like, yes, I can. So you're already behind. And then, then they say, wait, wait, you're behind. But hold on, let me add some other stuff. This is for your own good, though. This is for your own good. So you're black and now you're divorced and you don't have family. Like, just keep putting you back, putting you back, putting you back, putting back. But you can do this. And you're like, okay, I can do this. Have faith, endure to the end. It doesn't matter where you start, it matters where you finish. And I'm like, okay,

John Dehlin [00:08:53] now, there were no dis. Do you. I know at some point we're going to talk about disciplinary councils, because you mentioned that in a different Mormon Stories episode. Were there any disciplinary councils involved in this first marriage or divorce?

Chanel Achenbach [00:09:04] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:09:04] For you?

Chanel Achenbach [00:09:05] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:09:05] Okay. I don't. I only mentioned that because you've mentioned it in other contexts.

Chanel Achenbach [00:09:10] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:09:10] Is that something for us? It's. We want to talk about that whenever it's possible because we feel like disciplinary councils are horrendous. It was awful, terrible. But that doesn't mean you necessarily want to talk about it today. So I'm literally checking in with you. No pressure. You can say, I don't want to talk about it today or you can talk.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:30] That's good.

Chanel Achenbach [00:09:31] It's important to talk about.

John Dehlin [00:09:33] Okay, so do you want to give us some background on that? And again, only share what you're comfortable sharing.

Chanel Achenbach [00:09:38] Sure. So this first marriage was this black man that I, you know, I had met because someone said that she thought we'd be good for each other. And this is after finding out he can't get married in the temple. This is finding out that family is not going to come, his family's not going to come, my family's not going to come. And I'm just like, oh, my gosh, I'm not having it the way my girlfriends, they're all getting engaged. But they're getting married in temple, all their family's here. So kind of frustrating. And so he was who he was. And so he kind of pressured, you know, pressured, you know, for some physical intimacy. And I was like, no, we can't do that. We're going to get in trouble. And, you know, he's good, you know. I was like, well, you know, it's not a big deal because we're not going to get married in the temple anyway. And I was like, yeah, I understand that. So long story short, we were intimate, okay. And this was after. This is like a week before we got married and we got married and that was that. Got married at a courthouse, had a reception and things. Things were weird for like, for a minute. And then one day I went to go pick him up from work and he said, I can't go home right now. And I'm like, what's going on? He's like, hey, there's something going on. He worked for a church company at the time was ecmi. And he had said that he knocked over TV and they were holding his check and they were keeping him. And I was like, that's not right. I'm gonna call the bishop. So I called the bishop. I said, hey, they're. They're not, you know, this is a church owned company. They're not treating him right. These things are going wrong. And the bishop's like, yeah, that doesn't sound right. That's awful. Let me call. He called them and the bishop had asked me questions. He said, I need to ask you questions. Is your husband a member of the church? And I said, yes. Does he have any kids? No. He's like, he is. He's not a member. He does have a child. And I was like, what? And so we started discussing. He says, is there anything else I need to know? And I said, well, we were intimate. Like, to me, it was just like we were intimate. And he's like, what? And I was like, yeah, a week before we got married, he's like, what? And I was like, yeah, like we already getting married. It was just a week before. And he's like, no, that's. That's actually wrong. That's actually really bad. And I was like, why? We got married and it was a week before. And he was like, no, no, no, no, no. He said, you're going to have to go for disciplinary counsel. You're going to have to talk about this. And we need to assess what we need to do. And I go, about what? We're married. We Were married. And this was after we had been married, I think six weeks. Maybe six weeks. And so I went and it was in the culture hall. It was a bishop, his counselors, a secretary, and some other men. So me alone in the culture hall with like six men telling them what we did.

John Dehlin [00:12:32] Were they six white men?

Chanel Achenbach [00:12:33] Yeah, of course they were. Six white men asking this black woman about her intimacy with now her husband. They asked me how, what, when did you know how many times what the situation was? Did we do it more than once? And I was like, wait, what? Like I just told you it would happen the week before we were married. And it was detailed questions and I was really uncomfortable, but you have to answer them now. I would be like, it's none of your business. But at that time, indoctrinated for sure.

John Dehlin [00:13:06] Are you comfortable saying how detailed the questions got to? Very details them, not you.

Chanel Achenbach [00:13:11] Right, Very detailed. They specifically asked what we did, where we did, how many times we did, and if, who liked what. They're very, very detailed questions. And the reason for the details they explain. Well, there's, there's, there's a difference of necking and petting is what they're explaining than other things. So we want to make sure. So when we have to assess what happens to you, rather you're disfellowshipped or excommunicated, we. And plus you, you've been through the temple. So we need to know in detail to know what to do about this situation to help you with your repentance

John Dehlin [00:13:49] because you had been endowed as a missionary.

Chanel Achenbach [00:13:51] I had been endowed, huh.

John Dehlin [00:13:52] Okay.

Chanel Achenbach [00:13:52] So this was after my mission. And so they're like, you're an endowed member. Things change. So we need to know in detail because you know, necking and petting is one thing, but if you're doing other things, then you've broken your covenant. And I was like, what? But we got married, like, I don't see. And they said, but you still broke a covenant, so we need to know what degree of. And they said also the more times you do it, the more it shows that you're not repentant, the more times it shows that you're not sorry that that is a habit as opposed to a one time fail. And so I was like, oh my gosh. And all these men are looking at me. There's, there's just all looking at me and I'm just sitting there trying to explain what I did with my now spouse. That was terrible, uncomfortable and awful. It was awful. Awful.

John Dehlin [00:14:41] No one's been Able to explain to me how the information of who enjoyed what has relevant do with anything?

Margi Dehlin [00:14:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:50] Can you explain that to me?

Chanel Achenbach [00:14:51] Like, no. Well, they were explaining. So if it's, it's one thing, if you were talked into doing something and you didn't enjoy it, then it wasn't your fault. But if you enjoyed it, then you're couple, like it's part of your problem.

John Dehlin [00:15:05] What if you're talked into it but enjoyed it?

Chanel Achenbach [00:15:09] I'm just, I was, I was 26, so a very adult woman. And just like. Yeah, I. I don't know. Like, okay, that was weird. Yeah, it was really, really uncomfortable.

John Dehlin [00:15:23] So you felt uncomfortable?

Chanel Achenbach [00:15:24] Extremely uncomfortable. I. It wasn't even about being ashamed after that, because to me, I was an adult woman who got married to the man. So to me, I didn't understand why it was so horrible. But what was devastating to me is talking to a group, not one man, a group of males watching me explain my personal intimacy with my now spouse. My now husband.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:51] It's so interesting too, that this all started in the context of you reaching out to your bishop for help with a situation that was completely separate. And so you're in this sort of almost like trust confiding, asking for help, and then he asks you just kind of on the side about kind of intimacy. And in that, in that sort of context you share, and then it kind of flips on a dime. It's really, really awful.

Chanel Achenbach [00:16:23] It was really awful because when I realized what that meant, he says, you know, you're going to have to be disfellowshipping. You're not going to be excommunicated, but disfellowshipped. And I said, okay, what does that mean? He says, so you can't take the sacrament, you can't pay tithing, and you can't give talks. So I'm in Relief Society one day and she hands me a slip to read a passage from Gospel Principles.

John Dehlin [00:16:44] And.

Chanel Achenbach [00:16:44] And I have to hand it back to her in front of everybody else. And I said, I can't. And she just looks at me like, what? So she could take that as I know why, or she could take that as you're being rude. So everybody's looking at me like, what? And I can't give prayers, I can't talk in church, I don't take the sacrament. So everybody knows something's up. So everybody, you know, are looking at me. And I'm really embarrassed because I've already talked to these men about my intimacy. And now these women in Relief Society or even in Sunday school, even I've lost my calling. So they know something happened. I. And now I give the slip a paperback or someone, because nobody else knows. Oh, can you give the prayer? And I can't. What? I can't. So then only explain to a few people, because they're like, well, what do you mean? I didn't know. I couldn't tell him or shouldn't tell him. I just said, well, I'm disfellowshipped. And they're like, what? And I was like, well, I thought everybody knew that because these men asked me about it. So I assumed it's common knowledge. And they were really uncomfortable, like, oh, my gosh. So I was like, okay.

John Dehlin [00:17:56] But it's such a scarlet letter.

Chanel Achenbach [00:17:57] It was awful.

John Dehlin [00:17:58] Every time you go to church, you have to pat the tray. You have to literally pass it on by, and you're thinking in your mind, well, some people are watching, but in your mind you're thinking, everybody's watching.

Chanel Achenbach [00:18:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:09] And then. Yeah. At any moment, you can get us to say a prayer, and you have to tell them no.

Chanel Achenbach [00:18:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:14] And you know immediately what they're going to assume.

Chanel Achenbach [00:18:17] Of course.

John Dehlin [00:18:18] So it's this awful, shaming scarlet letter. I can't believe they do this to people.

Chanel Achenbach [00:18:22] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:18:23] Yeah. It's part of that kind of conformity culture where. Where everyone is expected to follow to a T. Then you have members who are actually, like, looking around to see who's not kind of for those cues of like, wait, who's on the outside? Wa. Who. Like, where's the danger? Where's the. And it creates this public shaming kind of event. Yeah. In these. In these interactions that are. Yeah, it's.

John Dehlin [00:18:52] That's the last thing you needed, right?

Chanel Achenbach [00:18:55] It was the absolute last thing I needed. You know, just wasn't a promiscuous person who was just running around with a bunch of different people. And even that's my own personal business. If that's. So it was a person with a man who she was promised to marry a week later.

John Dehlin [00:19:15] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:19:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:17] Okay. I'm so sorry.

Chanel Achenbach [00:19:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:20] So that was how the marriage began. That first marriage began. Yes. Okay. And then it lasted a couple years.

Chanel Achenbach [00:19:26] A couple of years.

John Dehlin [00:19:27] Okay. Okay.

Chanel Achenbach [00:19:30] Pretty quickly.

John Dehlin [00:19:31] Okay. So in that marriage ended. Were bishops involved? Were church leaders involved?

Chanel Achenbach [00:19:36] I had a good. I had a good bishop at the time. He was really good about counseling. Like, I think you guys could try counseling that obviously was never going to work, but attempted that. And he. He was really good about, hey, I don't know. What else to do. I know you're getting divorced. He tried. He really did. I think he was a good bishop. It was just everybody else. And then after him being released. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:12] So how in the world you're away from your entire family, support system is in another state and basically feels like you joined a cult, so you're basically kind of estranged from them. You're living here in Utah, you're a person of color when everybody else is white. And now you're divorced. How do you make ends meet? How do you support two young kids? And now you've got a husband that may or may not be providing support for you. How do you survive?

Chanel Achenbach [00:20:40] I had really good friends at the job that I worked. I felt. So what I did is I end up taking a serving job because I had two kids and I needed to be able to leave the job without getting in trouble. So other jobs were requiring that you don't miss any days. You know, you can't call in. Well, you have two babies, you know, they're 15 months apart. If I need to leave, I need to be able to leave. They're in daycare. And so working at a restaurant gave me that flexibility because in the job I had was extremely flexible. I'm like, you know, Brian, I gotta go, I gotta go. They just called from the daycare. My child just threw up. They have hand, foot and mouth. I have to go. I can get out of that. I can, you know, get my things, have somebody else take my table, and I can leave. I couldn't do that. Other jobs, you would lose your job. I didn't lose my job for going to handle my business with my children.

John Dehlin [00:21:34] What was the restaurant? I'm just curious.

Chanel Achenbach [00:21:35] It was Red Robin.

John Dehlin [00:21:36] Oh, fun. Where?

Chanel Achenbach [00:21:37] In Layton.

John Dehlin [00:21:38] Okay. Fun.

Chanel Achenbach [00:21:39] I loved it. It was good. They were very, very. They were very supportive. And it was hard too, because. Because they would tease me sometime because at. For a long time I was a straight lace Mormon and they would go, have fun. They would go to Wendover, they would drink. And I was always like, so I didn't fit in the church, but I didn't really fit in with them either because I was like, oh, my gosh, you can't drink, you're going to burn in hell. And so they didn't want to hear that. And. But then at church, I didn't have people I was hanging out with, but they were really good to me. Like, I. I know Christmas time, I didn't ask them to do anything, but they themselves got together and thought we need to help her. You know, she's got children. Sorry. She doesn't have family here. And they just. On their own, just. I remember one of them was a male and he got a card and he had a bunch of people get together and they gave me gift card to Sego Lily to go get a massage. And they said, we know how hard you work. I didn't ask them for anything. And they were not Mormon, but they were. They were good. They were like. And the customers there, too. I worked there for a long time because the customers were good too. I had developed relationships with customers because I remember what they ordered and had it ready for them when they'd walk up. I knew what they drank. And so it was a real. I really felt that it was a good family. And I was like, why can't I maneuver within the church? But I can maneuver in these people that don't even like the fact that I make them feel uncomfortable judging them, you know? So. Yeah. Weird.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:19] But it sounds like it provided a community where you felt seen at a time when you really, really needed support. Right?

Chanel Achenbach [00:23:28] Yeah. And I think a lot of them worried. One of them was. A couple of them were really good friends. I'm talking close friends. Like, if it was 3 o' clock in the morning, I said, I need help. They came over. Like, it was that supportive, you know, some of them were concerned, like, you know, this religion is not good. Like, you know, they're not good to black people. And I'm like, yeah, but here's the thing. I'm. I'm learning. And I've been told that things get better. And I told, if I endure that, I'll figure it out. We don't know everything. I said the same thing. We don't know everything. We'll learn after this life what this all means. You don't understand. You're not in it. You've not had the Holy Ghost conferred upon you. So you don't know these things. So it'll be fine. You know, they're very concerned.

John Dehlin [00:24:11] It's also just super weird. If you read the Bible and you read the story of Jesus, like, it couldn't be more clear. All these men drag a woman in front of Jesus and say, hey, she's committed adultery. Stick it to her. Jesus. And like, Jesus couldn't be any more clear.

Chanel Achenbach [00:24:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:28] He's like, who among you is without sin? Let. Let him cast the first stone. And they're all embarrassed and they walk away. And that's it.

Chanel Achenbach [00:24:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:36] It wasn't like he didn't turn to the woman and say, hey, you're disfellowshipped, and I'm gonna stick you with a red, scarlet A and now keep you from taking the sacrament and saying prayers in church. It's just like, go that way and sin no more. You know, do better. Right.

Chanel Achenbach [00:24:53] So mark again, huh? So marked again.

John Dehlin [00:24:55] But, I mean, but Jesus made it clear you just love these people, right? Why is, why can't the church. I wonder just why the Mormon Church couldn't just like, see what Jesus did and do that. How they add all this other stuff that's clearly not biblical and not Christian.

Chanel Achenbach [00:25:14] Well, I have my theories.

John Dehlin [00:25:15] What? Well, yeah, but I mean, you're getting more love and support from your colleagues at Red Robin. From your colleagues at Red Robin. You're getting love and support and from your supposedly Christian church. And I'm not trying to bash on the church, but, like, I'm just dumbfounded that your Red Robin colleagues are loving you and supporting you and your church leaders who are supposed to be Christian are condemning and shaming you. Yeah, I just don't know where Christ is in that.

Chanel Achenbach [00:25:43] I don't either. Because looking back, I'm like, oh, my gosh. Like, nobody asked them to do anything. And they, according to the church, they were the evil ones because they, they went to. To clubs and they drank and they went to Wendover. So they were evil, but yet they were the ones that were mourning when I was mourning, you know, they. They were the ones that love my kids. You know what I mean? Like, I was overwhelmed. I didn't have my family in town. I was overwhelmed. And couple of times one of them got into my apartment and cleaned it, and they would just do stuff like that. Nobody told them or had a manual or scriptures to tell them what to do. They did it because it felt like something they needed to do. And I'm not saying that the church people, throughout my years have never been helpful. I'm not saying that. But what I'm saying as a whole and as a default, it was more of a shaming thing than it was love, because with all that supposedly love came a lot of condemnation. Like, okay, we love you hate the what. What was it love to sin or hate the sin? And I was like, but we all sin, so what business is it of yours? You know? And then comes all of the. Well, you sin because this. And if you hang around this person. Yeah, but these people that you're saying are sinners are. Are the only ones I feel loved by. I truly Feel that they care what happens to me and my kids, these sinners.

John Dehlin [00:27:24] Yeah. Yeah. The church doesn't do single people very well either.

Chanel Achenbach [00:27:28] No.

John Dehlin [00:27:29] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:29] Well, it's almost like, you know, at any time when you're othered for any reason where you're. It's like you can live in this little tiny box of a space, and anytime anyone kind of steps out of whatever that. You know how small that is. I feel like. I mean, I think interview after interview, there are just countless times you feel love taken away. It's just denied access. Access denied. You are now a threat. You are now not. And it's so incredibly painful.

John Dehlin [00:28:03] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:03] Yeah.

Chanel Achenbach [00:28:03] I think I saw that when I was talking to some women about Relief Society presidents, and they were like, well, you. You wouldn't be a Relief Society president. And I was like, why not? And they're like, well, you're not married and you've been divorced and you don't. So the image that. No, not the image, she said, the mold. The example has to be what we're striving for. What are we striving for? We're striving for the celestial kingdom. What does celestial kingdom have? Man and woman, married with children. Multiply and replenish the earth. Well, you're not doing that. It doesn't mean that you're a bad person, but you have to set. What kind of example would it be to show a single person, not that single people are bad, but a single person that's divorced, with two kids struggling. You have to show the model. A mom with a husband. This is what it looks like. You know, you can't strive to something if you don't show the model of what it looks like.

John Dehlin [00:29:08] And I'm like, how'd that make you feel?

Chanel Achenbach [00:29:10] Awful. Because. But they weren't understanding. There was other people that were divorced and other people struggling, and that model can't relate to any of them. But I can relate to them. And so that was weird. You know, I just thought. I don't know why we were talking about that. I think we're just talking about a new person going to be called and who her counselors might be, and. And I don't know why we were talking about this. Yeah. But you could never be a Relief Society president, not as a single person. And I was like, okay. And that was a discussion.

Early Cracks in Testimony

Margi Dehlin [00:29:41] So there are sometimes moments people can reflect on where it's like a crack in their kind of testimony. Crack in there, as you were kind of living this new reality, seeing, let's say, the church system in this way. Do you, at the time. So at that time, did, did it, do you, did you notice that it changed your perspective or changed on some level how you viewed the church in a way that kind of played out eventually or. No, not yet. Yes.

Chanel Achenbach [00:30:23] Because when things, everybody will question when things change and then you reevaluate. You're like, well, what does that mean? So, for example, being disfellowshipped. So now everybody knows my business. And repentance is a personal, private thing between God. Yeah. Why does all the word know what my problem is? Isn't repentance supposed to be just between me and God? Why was it with several men in the culture hall?

Margi Dehlin [00:30:54] Yeah.

Chanel Achenbach [00:30:54] And so that was, that was disturbing and traumatic. And then to be divorced and to lose that kind of support and then to then have conversations with women that you look up to, to then say here again, you suck because of your circumstance, not because your heart isn't in the right place, that you are living the gospel, that you're reading your scriptures, that you're going to the temple, you're doing all this, but you don't fit a model we've created. The model says you need to be this, this is the picture cookie cutter of what it needs to be. And you are not that. So.

John Dehlin [00:31:34] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So where does your Mormon story go from from there? Single, divorced mom working at Red Robin. Where does it go from there?

Chanel Achenbach [00:31:47] Then? It goes to, I think the most eye opening place to where I really started questioning hard and was ready to leave.

John Dehlin [00:31:56] But that's in 2000.

Chanel Achenbach [00:31:57] This is in 2002.

John Dehlin [00:31:59] Okay.

Chanel Achenbach [00:31:59] Okay. So now there is a young man that I'm spending a lot of time with, a white male that I think is great. I think he's a good person. I, we go to institute together, we go to church. We're doing all the right things. We're not doing anything wrong. We're doing the right thing. And I think that went on for about two years. I, I just thought it was great. I mean we conversation was good. I thought chemistry was good on my part. But he made it known to me several times, kind of angrily though, which I was reading my journal and it is painful to read, but he was annoyed. He was like, ew, like, and it was like, this is how he was. He was like, ew, like, I don't know why I would be attracted to you. I'm just not. And I was like, wait, what? And, but you're here and you're doing these things and he's like, yeah, but, like. And he would say stuff like, even my family said if I ever brought home a black girl, they would beat me. And I was like, but you're here. I'm so confused. Um, but we still hung out. We'd have these difficult conversations. We talk about black and white issues. They'd be difficult, but they were never to the point where I didn't think at the time he was being hurtful and harmful until I reread my journal. Man. He was like, you're gross. Your skin. This is gross. This is not good. And then I remember what. Finally, I think, like, I said, I think this went off for about two years, but finally did it as he

John Dehlin [00:33:43] was getting date you for two years and say, you're gross.

Chanel Achenbach [00:33:46] Well, this is what he told me. He says, you cannot say I'm your boyfriend. I'm like, really? What are we doing then? What. What is this? We were kissing. We were holding hands. We're doing all this stuff. But he's like, why? I. I'm not holding your hand. Like, I'm not doing that. I'm not touching. I'm. I'm not doing that. But it was like. It was like a struggle. I can see that he struggled. Like, there are people around us. They knew what was going on. We talked about it, and he. It was like this. This conflict. It's. It was like, I don't want to misspeak, but talking to my friend, it was like a person who is told being gay is wrong, but they can't fight what they. They know about themselves. So he was like, he. He was like, no. Like, I can't. This is wrong. This is wrong. This is wrong. And I'm like, what's wrong? He said, this. This is not right. This is so wrong. So finally, I was kind of trying to pin him down on, okay, what. What's going on here? Like, we're adults. I've already been married. I have two children. What's. What's going on here? And so he's like, let me think about it. Let me pray about it. So he comes over. He says, I, I. I need to talk to you. So I said, okay. He said, this is not gonna work. This is wrong. I said, what's wrong? So he reads me the scripture, second Nephi, I think it was 5:21, about the skin of darkness as a skin of blackness and mixing. He said, chanel, this is a curse. It's not a curse on me. It's a curse on you. And what will happen is if we Mix. He. He didn't say Mary. He said, if we mix and we have children, then the curse is going to be on our kids, and it's going to be a curse on our union. We cannot do this. The scriptures are very specific on what they say. And I was like, what? And I'll be honest, I was mad. I was like, I didn't all of a sudden become black. I've been black for the past two years. So what changed now? He said, well, marriage. It's one thing to mess around. And I was like, whoa. But marriage, now we're affecting kids, we're affecting generations. And my family's not. They wouldn't come. Would you like that? If we try to get married, my family's not coming. They're not going to support this. And so we had a long discussion about it. And I told him, I said, so interesting how I prayed. I feel right about this. You said you prayed and you don't feel right about this? Is it because you're misunderstanding the scripture? He goes, don't question. He says, I have priesthood authority. I know what I'm talking about. You don't get to tell me what God wants from me. And I said, you're correct. And so I was devastated. And then. So I went to the bishop. I made an appointment with the bishop. And like I said before, I. I was take. I was more taken back by the bishop's reaction than his, even because the bishop was really angry. He. Other ones I've talked to about this issue are uncomfortable. This one was angry. I went in, I said, bishop, I've been seeing this guy for a while. And he said, he can't marry me because of the Scripture. And the. He was sitting in the chair. It wasn't behind a desk. It was like a. Like. Like a chair. And I was sitting in front of him, like, very close. And he was kind of, like, slouching, laying down kind of. And it was weird. His body language was so weird. But I was like, that doesn't make sense to me. And he's like. I mean, his face, his. He had red, like. Like pink, red face. And he was like, it's like his face. I still remember how mad he was. He goes, he's right. Just cold like that. He's right. First of all, he's a priesthood holder, so you need to listen to him. Second of all, he's correct. And then he said, utah is not ready for that. I said, ready for what? He said, interracial marriage and dating. No, that is so wrong. He is correct. And I said, that doesn't make any sense to me. We're humans. Like, I don't. He said, do you not understand? I mean, he was so mad. Like, how dare you say this? This is not okay. He is right. And I left, called my home teacher, was upset and said, I need a blessing. I am not doing well. I don't know what I just heard. I don't like what I heard from him. And now the bishop didn't give details. I told the home teacher a little bit about what's going on, but didn't get into details. He said, sure, he came over, he gave me a blessing. I was visibly upset, was crying, was upset. I think for about two weeks. It was really difficult. I talked to my friend about it, talked to all my other friends, and I'm like, I can't believe the bishop said that. And they, they, they were just kind of shrugging. They didn't give any kind of support either way. They didn't say the bishop is wrong. They didn't say the bishop right. They just kind of was like, yeah, that sucks. And I'm like, that was awful. Like, but you're telling me I need to get married. I need to get married in temple. I need to be in the celestial kingdom. This young man was temple worthy. We could have been married in the temple, unlike the one before. So, yeah, I took that really hard. I, I think that was like a huge, huge, huge step to where I was like, I need to really question. This doesn't feel right. This does not feel right.

John Dehlin [00:39:31] I'm so sorry.

Chanel Achenbach [00:39:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:33] And there's a part of me thinking, how in the world would you even give time to somebody so disrespectful? And that goes to the man you were dating for two years, but it also goes to the church. How could you give the church any time if it's teaching such racist things? But then I think about the fact you're in Utah surrounded by white people. You're, you're, you've been cut cut off, in effect, from your family and your support system. And you've been taught, oh, yeah, you're lesser than. Like you told in the last episode, you were warned. You're going to have a hard time. And it's going to be your job in this church to be resilient, to be strong, because adversity is going to be baked into this experience for you. So you were almost like primed. Primed and groomed to withstand constant abuse by individuals and by the institution and, and told you were lesser than from the start, and that you just need to hustle to become equal to everybody else. And so, of course, you were willing to endure endless abuse because you were part of an abusive system that groomed you to be okay with the abuse.

Chanel Achenbach [00:40:54] You have to trust the majority. You're looking at all these couples that are married, and they seem to be doing well. Why would they be lying? And you're just one black person. Yeah. It has to be you, so it has to be me. That's misunderstanding. So then the gymnastics start. You start making it work. Well, why are they wrong? Why is he wrong? It's right there in the scriptures. Are the scriptures wrong? So then they do this. They tell you, chanel, you have to decide if the scriptures are true or not. And if the scriptures are true, everything else is true. So then I decide, do I believe the Book of Mormon is true? And I'm like, I don't think it's untrue. Right? It can't be untrue. Right? Because I've had good feelings. Those good feelings were true, but they weren't of the church. They were the people. But you're in your mind. But those feelings were good. Remember the day you got baptized? It wasn't because I was thinking about Jesus. It was because when I came out of the water, there was 30 people I'd never seen in my life cheering for me, you know, so how am I not going to feel good about that? I have people who I value or people that seem that they're way better than I could ever be, saying, I did a good thing. I'm gonna make it work, you know? And so you read that scripture. And then they would say something like, chanel, they'd use the pie analogy, which is funny because they use a pie analogy for other stuff, too. But they would say, okay, so they talked to me about my favorite pie, and at that time, I told them coconut cream pie from Marie Calendars. And they'd say, okay, so think about this pie. So if you have one sliver of that pie that's bad, you really going to throw away the whole piece? No, you're not. You're going to take that bad part out. You're going to either throw it away or just don't eat it, but you're going to eat the rest of the pie because it's good. And I was like, yeah, that's true. So this racist part of this scripture is just a few scriptures. It's not the whole Book of Mormon. The rest of the Book of Mormon is good, right? Yeah. And you chose this trial, right? Yeah. And this is what God wants, right? You gonna question God? No. You're gonna question a priesthood holder that has a direct link to God? Hell no. It's me. I'm supposed to go through this. It is my fault. I chose this in the pre existence. Okay, I'm good. I don't like it. It's good. Okay, next I'll. I'm over it. Okay, I understand. I wrote that down in my journal.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:38] Yeah. So much emotional manipulation there.

John Dehlin [00:43:42] I'm so sorry.

Chanel Achenbach [00:43:44] But it sounds good. It fits so good though.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:47] And these, to be clear, were white people telling you what the pie was and that racism was one slice?

Chanel Achenbach [00:43:54] Yes. Just a small part. You're making it a bigger deal than it needs to be. Okay, sorry.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:02] Right.

John Dehlin [00:44:04] And. And you mentioned kind of our LGBT brothers and sisters. There's this idea of internalized homophobia where you hate the gay part about you, even though you're gay. And from the studies I've done with, you know, Malcolm X, Martin Luther King and others, if you grow up in a society where white is perceived as supreme, you can grow up hating your blackness, even if you're black. Not, not hating it, but also kind of hating it.

Chanel Achenbach [00:44:34] Definitely mad at yourself that why would you choose this trial and why didn't John choose this trial? What was I thinking? That I really want this? Yeah, you did. Because you know what, Chanel? You know what you're getting in the afterlife? You know that you're sure in the harder the trial and the better you endure it. You think you're not going to get gold in the afterlife? It's not going to be here. That's fine. But you know that after you die, you're going to be like the first. You'll probably sit on the right hand next to Jesus. I will. Yeah. Because I endured harder than you. I chose this trial. Okay. Yeah, I'm down with that. Yeah. Okay, cool. That's what I thought. I'm 18. I'm 20. I'm 26. Everybody's telling me these things. Okay. Everybody's a big word. Most people are telling me these things because I'm telling them. I'm uncomfortable. I don't like this. I don't like the racism. But you chose to be the trial. And you have to understand it was what you and your people did in the pre existence that brought this trial. I didn't think to question, but we said people are punished for their own sins, not for Adam's transgression. So why Would I be punished for something in the pre existence that didn't click until now? So, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:58] Yeah. And that whole. In the afterlife, it'll be great. Just pray to endure a miserable life now.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:05] Exactly.

Chanel Achenbach [00:46:07] But Jesus Christ endured a miserable life. And he was a son of God, you know, Sister Baker, he got nailed on the cross. His own people did stuff to him. Why do you think you're any better than Job? Why do you think you're any better than Jesus Christ? That you don't have to go through these trials? Who are you? Yeah, you're right. If Jesus can do it and Job can do it.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:27] Yeah.

Chanel Achenbach [00:46:28] And Alma went through it and Abinadi and all these people went through that. Oh, my gosh. And Nephi, he had it from his own brothers. Who am I to question? I. I bought into it heavily. I just wanted to do good, you know, if you talk to my family, I have. I say exactly what I think. But I didn't do bad things. Like, I've never been arrested. I don't. I don't like getting in trouble. So if you said God said it. I'm not questioning that. That was my thought process then.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:06] Yeah. Which kind of brings back that element of safety, trying to keep yourself safe. Right, Right.

John Dehlin [00:47:18] I'm so sorry. So how did things end with this man you were dating?

Second Marriage and Ongoing Racial Harm in the Church

Chanel Achenbach [00:47:21] So I divorced him. He got papers. He didn't.

John Dehlin [00:47:24] Oh, no, no, no. The man dating man, it was so

Chanel Achenbach [00:47:28] weird because we were really good friends, though, so that made it really difficult. He was racist. He'll admit it. He was racist very much. But from where he was from, it's understandably why. And plus, he would remind me that his siblings were older and they were. They were the age of my parents. So he was very young. You know, he was. He was younger than me, and so that was how he was raised. So after that, it was tense for a minute. But then we remained friends. And then I started dating somebody else after a while. And I remember a couple of times he said he thinks he made a mistake, you know, but then it. It was what it was, and we still remain good friends. And then I got married to my second husband, and he knew about it. And he was weird because he was white.

John Dehlin [00:48:25] Correct.

Chanel Achenbach [00:48:26] He was white.

John Dehlin [00:48:26] So that.

Chanel Achenbach [00:48:28] Okay, so the second husband's family were all members. Oh, my goodness. He was not. He was. It was his aunt, his cousins, his grandparents. They were all members and active. He was not.

John Dehlin [00:48:48] So the fact that he was willing to marry you, a black woman was in part because he wasn't A believing Mormon? Is that what you're saying?

Chanel Achenbach [00:48:55] I'm saying that he told me up front, he's like, listen, they're not going to go for this. They are racist. And I'm like, no, they're not. He's like, yeah, they are. And I'm like, no, they're not. They're polite, nice to me. He goes, yeah, to your face. And I was like, okay, okay. And I don't think, I don't think people understand what racism is. There's white supremacy, there's prejudice, and there's racism. Racism. If you just look at me and all these thoughts come in your head about what you think I am based on not even knowing me and based on my skin color, that's racist. If you think I'm on welfare by looking at my skin, that's racist. If you think that I eat a certain way based on my skin and you don't know me personally, that's racist. If you think that I'm trying to trap your nephew into getting pregnant to hold on to a white man because it's better based on my skin, that's racist. So, yes, they were racist.

John Dehlin [00:49:57] Okay?

Chanel Achenbach [00:49:58] And then white supremacy is what white supremacy is. When you believe that your race is superior and that people need to suffer under your heels because of that. That you think that not only are you better, but that they are inherently, inherently evil or bad and that you start making policies, laws, systems, systems to oppress them because of what you think they do, capable of doing and so forth. It's, it's intense racism. Racism is, is, is part of it racism. I think racist can be taught because racist doesn't mean that, that you're a bad person. It just means you might be ignorant of things. It means you're not open. It means that you could be incorrigible and clueless, but white supremacy, you are incorrigible. You cannot be taught, you cannot be taught that what you're thinking and what you believe needs to happen. When they say stuff like black on black crime, that is the most ridiculous thing I, I've ever heard. Because I'm in Utah and there's crime being committed all the time. And they're not black, but black on

John Dehlin [00:51:14] black crime, you never hear in Utah, white on white.

Chanel Achenbach [00:51:17] No, it justifies their actions.

John Dehlin [00:51:19] Utah, it's just crime because it's just crime. White people committing crimes against mostly white people. So you'd never hear ever white on

Chanel Achenbach [00:51:26] white crime or Mormon on Mormon crime. I'm just like. That is the most recent. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:33] So, so if a black person happens to commit a crime against a black person, we're going to call that out.

Chanel Achenbach [00:51:39] It's black on black crime, not proximity, that they're all living together. So it's like if, if I live with my siblings and I'm fighting with my siblings, it's because they live with me, not because they're my siblings. Yeah, they're getting on my nerves.

John Dehlin [00:51:55] So, like, just because we're talking about it, like, I think more for some reason Mormons and probably lots of white people, they're okay with the idea that white people can be racist sometimes. But if you bring in the term white supremacy, it's like, oh, no, no, no, no, wait a minute, that's the kkk. That means you have white robes and you're like lynching people. Like, white supremacy is going too far. But then you look at Mormon doctrine and you look at Mormon practices. If we define white supremacy as a, a race, and we know race is a problematic construct to begin with, but people that think of them, a group of people with a certain skin color, if we call white supremacy, a group of people with a certain skin color thinking they're superior to another group with a different skin color, if we call that white supremacy, that's Mormonism.

Chanel Achenbach [00:52:44] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:52:45] That's in the Book of Mormon. It's in the Book of Moses, it's in the Book of Abraham. And every single prophet, Syrian revelator prior to 1978 taught it that, that people with dark skin color made mistakes and were punished as a result, whereas white people didn't. Didn't experience the same punishments. That's definitionally white supremacy.

Chanel Achenbach [00:53:09] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:53:10] Yeah.

Chanel Achenbach [00:53:11] And I think what they don't understand is the sources that I have are their own church leaders. And the books that I read, I refuse to read anti Mormon literature. What is anti Mormon? Something that people are using to try to, to make up lies. The books I read like Mormonism and white supremacy, it is Joanna Brooks. She loves the church. She's an active Mormon. So if she's saying it and she is showing pictures and doc documents and who said what when to. To bring this out. She has a whole book on this and she likes the church. Then you have John Lund. He was a professor at byu. He taught that. He liked the church too. You've got Jesse Embry, also a member of the church that loves the church. Black saints in a white church. They bring that up because they're saying it's an issue. So if we can't talk about it and acknowledge it we can't fix it. So when people keep saying, that was just a long time ago, that was. And it was Brigham Young, why are you only blaming Brigham Young? Let's be honest here. Joseph Smith was just as bad. Okay, or just not. Okay, let me rephrase. He wasn't just as bad, but he was part of it, too. And he had his own beliefs about that. There are discourses that are printed with his words on what he believed. Then you go prophet after prophet after prophet explaining what they think about black people. Okay, so let's say that members avoided. That they really lived in the bubble and they had no clue. I joined the church in what, 1990. Who was the prophet then? Ezra Taft Benson. Do we really want to talk about him? Ezra Taft Benson was part of what, John Birch Society? What is that about? He didn't believe in civil rights. He said that fighting for civil rights was communism. Well, okay, let's say that it stopped at him and no more about racism was talked about. They going forward, they never taught anything racist. But they didn't unteach. So if you taught, let's just say only 100 members believe what Ezra Taft Benson and other prophets taught about black people. You never untaught it. And even, let's say Bruce Allman Conkey, they're like, oh, that was his own ideas. But you let him say it. You can't excuse that right now. How do you think it would go over if in Sunday school they started teaching that they want all their kids to not marry the same sex? I mean, that they want their kids to marry the same sex. How do you think that would go? Well, they would say something because they don't agree with, that they let things be taught that they agree with. So Bruce Amonkkankanki was terrible, and that was just one prophet's idea. But you let him teach it at a podium. You let him write about it. You never said, stop that. Do not write that because you supported it. So then you come later and you disavow. Disavow means what? That, hey, I don't know. But I want no part of that. Disavow does nothing. It just makes people research deeper the racism and white supremacy within the Mormon Church. You could take that for whatever you want. You could either say, hey, I can see the problem. I want to acknowledge and do something, or you can say it doesn't exist, but it does. And there's so much proof. That's what makes it look bad. So then what happens? Now? The only way they Combat this and make it right. They're going to have to apologize. So Mormon Church, if you want me to shut up, first of all, you're going to have to apologize to me and everybody else. That is a demand. You're going to have to apologize. Number two, you're going to have to unteach that, meaning actively teach anti racism. You're going to have to say, hey, we are human. We got it wrong. We messed up. We have no problems with inner marriage. We have no problem with black people. That stuff that in the pre existence is wrong. It is not true. It wasn't of God. We made mistakes. Now what racism looks like is xyz. What it looks like in our church buildings, what it looks like in our homes is xyz. We're not doing that because our brothers and sisters are important. Then I stopped talking.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:29] Thank you. I'm sorry you have to teach us this.

Chanel Achenbach [00:57:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:33] But thank you for teaching us.

Chanel Achenbach [00:57:34] Of course.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:35] And as you were talking and saying, you know, hey, look at all these resources, Joanna Brooks or. And all these kind of. Within the church, it's also, it's also like, hear my experience. Like, it matters, you know, and this idea of privilege, right, that the more privilege. If you're in a group, you know, the people with the most privilege should not be the ones talking. Right. It's this idea of you should be listening to people who have less privilege as they talk about their experience as opposed to like, well, that's just not my experience or, you know, and so your experience matters. You know, your voice matters. And I'm really sorry. I'm really sorry that in the times that you were trying to use your voice or share, you know, parts of yourself, you know, that it's kind of like you weren't listened to. It just. It didn't matter.

Chanel Achenbach [00:58:31] Well, I. I understand as I think about it and I manage conversations with people. What happens is just recently, my dear friend, I hope that she's watching because I want her to understand how painful this was. So this is a person that wasn't considered my friend. This person was considered family. This is how we talk to each other. Hey, sis, we're sisters. And I was telling her about some of the concerns I was having as I was learning for sure about racism and white supremacy in the church. We were talking, she's like, well, let me call you. So she calls me and she's saying, hey, that's not true. There's nothing about the church that's racist, much less white supremacy. I said, sure. There Is. And I'm like, you don't know about. She said the church never taught that that is not true. That I don't know what those documents are. I don't know what that is. So then she gets him on the phone. I gotta be careful with who him is. And he's like, no, I think what happened is there's a couple of people that are racist, but the church as a group as a whole isn't. And I'm like, you really want to go with that? Very much so. Because you've seen it. It's, it's, here it is in the document. It's not even just documents. These men, church leaders made quotes with their whole chest saying the skin and the curse of the black man, the Negro this. And they are not. Oh gosh, just, I'm thinking just the different church leaders over the years that have made comments about black people and, and, and, and so definitive. It wasn't like, hey, I think black people might be cursed. I think it was like, they are deal with it. They made choices in the pre existence, they deal with it. And members, don't you dare mix with them. Because if you mix with them, you're going to die on spot. Your kids will be killed on spot. This was taught to people.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:48] And this is a dear friend of yours. You were making someone dear friend of

Chanel Achenbach [01:00:53] mine who was like, no, nope. And then I thought, okay, so why is she struggling to accept this information? Well, first of all, if you acknowledge it and admit it, what do you have to do? When you know something, you have to act. And if you have to act, what does that look like? Does that mean you question the church, what they're telling you not to do? Do you leave the church? No, you can't do that because the community and your family and what you have in your head about, you know, visiting, you have callings, you have prestige, you have this. If you admit this, well, what does that say about your church? That it may not be true. So you have all of these different things that transpire as you admit something. If I, if my kids, if I have to admit something about my kids that they tell me, mom, I think you were a little too angry the other day. I'd be like, no, I wasn't, I wasn't. Or I could say, yeah, I was. And then what does that look like? Now I have to acknowledge my behavior. Now I have to do the work to change my behavior. And then I have to apologize and, and manage that relationship with them so that it doesn't Happen again. People aren't willing to do that. They like their comfort. Well, it didn't happen to me. So not only are they having attitudes of, well, it didn't happen to me. Well, I don't want it to happen to me. I see how you treat, you're treated. I don't want them coming after me. So I'm sorry, you, you deal with it. I'm not saying it didn't happen or it's not true. I just don't want it to happen to me. So good luck with that. I got a lot of that.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:23] That feels like gaslighting. Is that gaslighting to be like, no, you've. That, that actually hasn't happened to you or no, your experience really wasn't that way?

John Dehlin [01:02:33] Yeah. Like, I just Googled like, you know, statements by Mormon leaders about race.

Chanel Achenbach [01:02:39] Oh, gosh.

John Dehlin [01:02:41] You know, and of course, you know, there's, there's Brigham Young quotes. You know, Brigham Young will say, and I'm just like, this is one of like 50, you know, you must not think from what I say that I am opposed to slavery. No. The Negro is damned and is to serve his master till God chooses to remove the curse of ham. You know, that's, that's Brigham Young, you know, but, but it, that's just one of really many, many, many awful things. But you can go all the way up to the 60s and 70s, you know, we've got, you know, Joseph Fielding Smith saying, who was a prophet of the Mormon church in the 70s, right. While I was alive. Right. Not only, you know, was Cain called to suffer, but because of his wickedness, he became the father of an inferior race. A curse was placed upon him, and that curse has been continued through his lineage and must do so while time endures. They have been made to feel their inferiority and have been separated from the rest of mankind from the beginning. And, and again, just Google like Mormon leader racist quotes and you'll find hundreds that are horrific. And so when a white woman tells you that Mormon church leaders have never taught racist things, it's gaslighting and it's just like objectively false and super insulting. And I'm so sorry.

Chanel Achenbach [01:04:06] Well, not only that, she also was like, you really need to not speak out on this because you're going to ruin people's lives. My life is, is pretty hard, Hun, because of the things that people are saying and being taught.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:21] You.

Chanel Achenbach [01:04:22] You have to understand, you have a bowl and you're pouring things into this bowl. Everything that you poured into it is what it Contains even if it's good. Was there love? Sure. Was there friendship? Sure. Was there hate? Yes. Was there gaslighting? Yes. Was there harm? Yes. Was there racism? Yes. Was there white supremacy? Yes. Did they help bring beautiful gifts on Christmas? Yes. That doesn't change racism. It doesn't change white supremacy. It doesn't change. Could you imagine having conversation after conversation with people that you love about race when they said they don't want to talk about race, but they don't want to keep bringing it up about stuff? Like, I, I, I think the most iconic, powerful, horrible time was 2016. That's when I was like, okay, I'm done. There's no way. There's no way I can. I said, God, if you are real and I have to endure this, then I rather go to hell.

John Dehlin [01:05:29] Okay, what time period are you talking about now?

Chanel Achenbach [01:05:32] 2016. That's when I was like, I'm done.

John Dehlin [01:05:34] Okay, wait. So I, I just want to make sure we don't lose the story. So you marry the second husband who was not a member when you married him.

Chanel Achenbach [01:05:41] He's not a member ever?

John Dehlin [01:05:42] Yeah, he, he never joined?

Chanel Achenbach [01:05:43] No.

John Dehlin [01:05:44] Okay, so you did marry him in the temple either?

Chanel Achenbach [01:05:46] No.

John Dehlin [01:05:47] But you found someone to help share life with?

Chanel Achenbach [01:05:49] Sure.

John Dehlin [01:05:50] Had. Had two children with him. And you two were married for how long?

Chanel Achenbach [01:05:54] We're married for 16 years.

John Dehlin [01:05:56] And did you stay active in the church during those 16 years?

Chanel Achenbach [01:05:59] He was good about it. But you know what? I'm going to tell you something about him that was really good. He, A lot of times we would have conversations where he legitimately seemed scared, and he would say, chanel, you gotta get out of this church, as opposed to. The first one was like, no, everything's great. We're fine. He was always like. It was like, this is an exaggeration, but it was like him looking over his shoulder like, okay, you need to get out of here. You are not okay. You need to get out of this. I'm telling you, I know my family. Get out. Don't. You cannot stay in this. Chanel, I'm telling you, get your children out of this. And I said, no. Well, you know, I, I struggled this month because, you know, both kids had hand, foot and mouth, and I missed a month of work. So they helped me with Bishop Storehouse. I'm not going anywhere. And he's like, you're being bought. And I go, no, they're helping because I've paid tithing. No, you're being bought. And so he was just like, you know, I'm telling You this will not end good. This is not good. He's like, I've been around this my whole life. I am telling you, get out.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:05] And at that, at that point, what did you feel when he would say those things to you? Was it reassuring because you felt like actually some of those experiences that you felt like he was actually seeing a reality that you're like, yeah, actually that is part of my reality. Or was it disturbing to you? Was it confusing because you felt split? Like how did it feel when he would say those things to you?

John Dehlin [01:07:26] I guess he wasn't a member. So he didn't have authority in your eyes.

Chanel Achenbach [01:07:30] Correct.

John Dehlin [01:07:30] As a non member? Is that part of it?

Chanel Achenbach [01:07:32] Part of it was I knew what he was saying was true, but I felt because I had one or two people that were kind and got it, that was enough and I can make it better because they're going to see how great I am and they're going to see how well I endured despite the circumstances. Oh, they're going to love me. I'm going to do it right, I'm going to do it better. I'm going to know my scriptures, I'm going to know this. I'm going to read my scriptures every day. They read the Book of Mormon once in a year. I've read it three times in a year. So they're going to really know that I'm in it. So because I'm in it now, they're going to light, they're going to, you know, let up on me. They're not going to make me feel as cursed or as messed up and they're going to see that even though I chose that in the pre existence and then I'm cursed. That curse is not defining me because look, look how good of a member I am. I like swearing, but I didn't swear then, you know, I didn't watch rated R movies. I didn't do anything I wasn't supposed to. I like coffee. I grew up with my mom drinking coffee. I stopped doing it because they said if I did I would burn. I didn't want to burn. So things that I liked that I really didn't think were awful. I had to trust the people around me who lives seemed good. I had to believe what they were saying so I had to endure it. Even though I believed him, he wasn't trying to hurt me. He was like warning me. He's like, you know, I'm telling you, you this is not good. Yeah, but what am I going to do? Where am I going to Go. My family is where I don't know how to relate to anybody. But Mormons, my friends who are non Mormons, they weren't having it. Who am I going to talk to now? If I leave? What. What will I do? Who will I talk to? So I'll make it work. I will make it work. Just like I'm making it work with you in this marriage. I will make it work.

John Dehlin [01:09:34] Because going back after you had that boyfriend between your first and second marriage. Boyfriend, I say in quotes, dump you with really racist justifications. You said you almost left the church then.

Chanel Achenbach [01:09:46] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:09:46] But it sounds like even though you married as your second husband, a non Mormon, something. Something pushed you to. To keep going.

Chanel Achenbach [01:09:56] Friends. What do you. Don't you dare, Chanel, you're just listening to apostates. You're just listening to the wrong people. You know, you're just upset right now. You're just upset. And because you're upset, you're not thinking clearly. And when you're upset, that breeds contention. Contentions of the devil. You've lost the Holy Ghost, so you have to do the part in the work to get the Holy Ghost back so you can make better decisions. And I'm like, oh, yeah, that makes sense. So.

John Dehlin [01:10:23] So it's. So many conversions are social, right? And so many people stay in the church for social or familial reasons that we. We conflate with. With the spirit. Because I always say the Holy Ghost feels a lot like social approval.

Chanel Achenbach [01:10:44] Let me tell you.

John Dehlin [01:10:46] You know what I'm saying? And you know what the adversary feels a lot like social rejection.

Chanel Achenbach [01:10:52] Absolutely. Well, I had to learn to maneuver through this. And I finally realized, you know what? When do you get the most support and a pat on your back? Because remember, I'm needing to feel secure and that I'm great, not great, that I'm a good person and that I'm capable of having good lives. But how do I do that if I'm divorced? If I'm not financially savvy, I struggle as a single mom? How do I win their support? That's how. When I give good talks, they love and support me. When I give good talks, that's when they talk to me. When I give eloquent prayers, that's when they talk to me. If I'm emotional about a scripture that they like and get emotional about, they relate to me. Oh, okay. So I got it. That's what I need to do. If I tell them what they want to hear, that they're the most spiritual people I've ever seen and that their talk was the most amazing thing, that I was so moved that I thought it was going to be translated. They listen to me, but if I ask them questions, they don't have anything to do with me. Got it. That's what I need to do.

John Dehlin [01:12:13] I'm thinking of this moment in the Malcolm X book slash movie when. When Malcolm X learns that if he. If he, you know, when he's shining the shoes, if he behaves a certain way, he gets the tip and he gets the pat on the back. You know, I don't know if he. I think you mentioned the term shuck and jive or something, but, like, it's almost like the race or the group of people in power train the people who aren't in power how to behave, and the church want that. I can imagine a bunch of white Mormons feeling uncomfortable about our racist past and present. But if we can have some people of color around, if we can influence them to stick around and occasionally give a good prayer or occasionally give a good talk, or occasionally appear in a church video saying, hey, I'm black and the church treats me great, you can kind of pat them on the head, show them a little bit of attention. And the function they serve in society is to make the Mormon society, is to help us all feel a little bit better.

Chanel Achenbach [01:13:19] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:13:20] About our racist past and present. And if we have to, you know, make you feel horrible, put you in a disadvantaged position, and then throw you a little welfare every once in a while or help you with a utility payment or whatever, I guess that's a small price to pay for your existence being there to help us feel a lot better about all our problems and our mistreatment of a whole group of people. I don't know if it hurts or is uncomfortable for me to be saying it that clearly, but that's just how I'm processing what I'm hearing.

Chanel Achenbach [01:13:51] But that's the truth, because I think about conversations I have with people where I'm like, hey, Brian, there's some stuff that happened in the church that I have a question about something that happened years ago and stuff that's happening now. Can. Can I talk to you about it? Oh, sure, of course. Well, you know when they said this in the Book of Mormon about the race. Oh, shut down. Automatic body change. Whoa, whoa, whoa. That's Sister, Stop. Because that is headed to apostasy, and that is contention of the devil. I'm feeling uncomfortable and contentious. You can't do that. That is not of God. That's. The Holy Ghost is not here. And I'm like, I. I brought in a bad spirit.

John Dehlin [01:14:36] Yeah, you for asking us sincere questions.

Chanel Achenbach [01:14:40] Don't. Don't do that. That's so messed up. And by the way, you need to understand something. Africa is growing. Church, the church in Africa, they're like, the church in Africa is growing. I'm like, wait, what? What does it have to do with me? Like, what? And I said, but they're not growing for what you're teaching them. You are throwing things at them. I know.

John Dehlin [01:15:02] We're not teaching them about the racism.

Chanel Achenbach [01:15:03] No, you're not. So your discussions aren't. Hey, so Brian, here's. Here's the thing. So we have a history. We have some stuff we're working on with racism. And you're going to encounter that with members and non members, but the church is true. Oh, okay. No, in. No informed consent.

John Dehlin [01:15:22] We're not having those conversations with.

Chanel Achenbach [01:15:24] Not at all.

John Dehlin [01:15:25] Converts.

Chanel Achenbach [01:15:26] Nope.

John Dehlin [01:15:26] Yeah, yeah.

Chanel Achenbach [01:15:28] No.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:29] Yeah, yeah. I mean, this may seem obvious, but like, this idea too, of there's like a layering that goes on. I think if we're going to talk about conditioning as white people and Mormonism is a layer, but I also think it's important to kind of nest it as an American religion too. Like, it was started in America and America has its own problems, seeing its history, apologizing, accountability, how to repair, how to like, make amends and actually make things right. So, like, there's so many layers here that, you know, as white people acknowledging, you know, this idea of Mormon. Mormonism isn't racist or, and therefore your experience, it's like there's. There's just so much there because it's like, yeah, you're walking with layers and layers of conditioning, as in white supremacy as white people. It's like literally the water we swim in. You know that there are many, many sources of conditioning going on here.

John Dehlin [01:16:39] Yeah. And Margi, on the one hand, I totally agree with you. Obviously there are many, many racist churches in America.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:47] Sure.

John Dehlin [01:16:48] Not just the Mormon Church, of course, but I'm reminded by my Christian friends that the curse of Cain does not appear in the Bible. The curse of Cain does not appear in the New Testament. Nope. Cain gets a mark in the Old Testament, but it says nothing about skin color or any. Any curse related to skin color that then gets passed down generationally. That's all stuff that gets added later. But it's Joseph Smith that ties the curse of Cain to skin color and then writes it into the Book of Mormon. In the Lamanite narrative and into the Book of Moses and the book of Abraham. It's in. So, like. Yes, yes. Mormons aren't the only racist church, but we are the only Christian church with explicitly racist scripture.

Chanel Achenbach [01:17:41] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:42] Yeah, I totally hear that. I totally hear that. My point was just kind of in saying Mormonism is a nest of racist ideology that sits on a foundation of racist ideology in America. That's all. I was just kind of saying we

John Dehlin [01:17:59] kind of take it to 11. Like, there's traditional. That's a. That's a Spinal Tap reference. But it's like this. This amplifier goes to 11. It's really loud. It goes to 11. So that's. Sorry. It's a Spinal Tap reference.

Chanel Achenbach [01:18:12] That was huge.

John Dehlin [01:18:12] Mormonism takes. In some ways, Mormonism takes racism to 11.

Chanel Achenbach [01:18:17] It just blows because I don't. People hear racism and they automatically think, she's saying that I'm a bad, horrible person and that I'm evil and I beat black people and I string them up and. No, you do worse because you don't even know. And when I try to tell you what it looks like, you don't want to hear it. For example, I had a friend. I was. I was. She was like, well, why are you leaving the church? Like, I've seen stuff that you've said and what's going on? So we went back and forth, and she says, okay, well, let me explain her exact words. In the beginning, God cursed the evil people with black skin, but that is to protect them. That is also to help us white people to learn to love better. Because we're going to see that there's a mark, and we're going to want to judge and be mean, but it's teaching us how to love despite what we see. Oh, okay. So let me.

John Dehlin [01:19:24] Let me.

Chanel Achenbach [01:19:24] Let me tell you what I'm hearing. I'm hearing you say that God cursed me with black skin to make you a better person, a better lover of people. Got it. Happy to oblige. You know, I was like, are you being serious? Oh, doi, too. Yes. It's to help love you better, and we are getting good at it. The hell you are. No, you're not.

Relationships With White Women in the Church

Margi Dehlin [01:19:51] Okay. Can I ask you. I'm curious if I can ask you about the end. I feel like, of the last interview, you touched on a really powerful, I feel like, important thread of your experience, and you kind of talked a little bit about white women in particular, in your experience, being exceptionally damaging, hurtful, betraying. Do you want to. Do you feel comfortable Speaking a bit about that now. Yes. Wow.

Chanel Achenbach [01:20:28] Like I am. And maybe her, to her point, maybe they all believe this because she said it's to help us love you better. So I think about these experiences that I've had with white women and let's. White Mormon women, not, not white women outside the church. White Mormon women. And this is the same feel. I think I've. I've even had instances with them in MLMs and what they would say to me and what they would think. One told me that I would do better if I was. What was it? Do what I was told that I would do better in this MLM if I would just do what I was told. Even though it was supposed to be my own business, I still need to do what I was told by the white people. And the friendships and the relationships with the white Mormon women is.

John Dehlin [01:21:30] It's.

Chanel Achenbach [01:21:30] It's the age of probably 30 to about my age 50. Those are the people I'm interacting with. And it's like kind of Karen's like, like, I have no choice in my life, no decisions to make. You need to do this. You need to do it like this and like that. Do you see how I did it? And I'm like, what? This is how they talk to me. And ah, my husband can attest to this. As we started dating, he started meeting my girlfriend. You need to do it this way. No, no, no. You cannot watch that. Nope. You went to the club with your friend. You cannot do that. You cannot do this. That, that, that. That is how they talk to me. They talked down to me and scolded me. And if I didn't do it the way that they said, then the friendship was strained. I had one tell me we were getting into it kind of hot and heavy because she started with the black on black crime. She's like, the reason why you guys have problems is because you don't know how to behave. You're not good people. Look at your communities. I was like, really? And she's like, yeah. And she says, and the reason why your life is the way it is is because you make really bad choices. You make horrible choices, so you're getting what you deserve. And I was like, oh, okay. And I said, so what I'm hearing is that you think you're better than me. She said, yes, obviously. She said, I am way better than you. I live the gospel. Look at my life, look at yours. How many times have you been married? That's because you're a bad person. But I love you. Okay, lady you just punched me in the face and now said you love me. I don't want that kind of love. I mean, it was. I mean, just how they talk like that. So in consistently misunderstanding what I'm saying to them and then coming at me, I mean, some of these things are public on Facebook. I mean, one, all I said was that I loved her. I loved her so much. In fact, I loved her so much. My daughter and I went to her house and we told her we have not felt such a good feeling. And my daughter, still kind of, like, religious, said she described it as like, the spirit. She said, mom, I felt such a good spirit in her house. Me, I was kind of like, I don't know how I feel about that spirit and God stuff right now. But she was right. I don't sleep very well. I suffer immensely with insomnia. But when I was at her house, I was, like, getting tired because I felt comfortable. And so she. She says some pretty racist things, and she says some pretty ignorant, clueless things. I meant her well. I was trying to help her. I didn't want people seen because people on the side were telling me things about her. Like people that she thinks are her friends are actually telling me, we don't agree with her, but we're not going to start anything. She's wrong. And so I worried for her. I really loved her. And so one day I called her clueless. I said, that is clueless. You're clueless. I meant it. I'm clueless of a lot of things. I didn't think clueless was a bad word. She lost it. I mean, she just went crazy, started insulting me and saying, you're a terrible person. You're not my friend. You're not this. You're not that. Well, a lot of times, I would. Something she would post, I would put it in the form with my friends and we would discuss it. And I. I was trying. So she said, your triggers are your problem. She posted something where it says, people that have triggers, your triggers are your problem. So I called her on it. Your triggers are your problem. I'm trying to help you. I'm trying to tell you those things are not good. You like to try to tell me about my behavior, to help me. I do care about you. This is not smart, lady. This is not. This is racist. This is not good.

John Dehlin [01:25:13] Yeah. Just to be clear, the stuff you're calling her clueless about are opinions that she's publicly sharing, Correct?

Chanel Achenbach [01:25:21] About black people, about black people, about lgbtqa. I mean, she is just like, not getting it.

John Dehlin [01:25:27] So bigotry. She's basically saying bigoted things, really? About blatantly black people and LGBT people publicly on the Internet. So when you say you're being clueless, you're basically saying you don't understand what you're talking about about these persecuted minorities. You're trying to help her.

Chanel Achenbach [01:25:44] I meant very much so. The way she. I matched how she talks. So if I said to her, hey, Becky, listen, this is not okay. That's not how she works. That's not how she talks to people. So why would I think that would work? So I talked to her confidently as what I thought confidently, and said, this is how you talk.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:03] With an air of authority, I bet.

Chanel Achenbach [01:26:06] And she says she can handle it. And for the most part, she does. She was like, you're right. And she had been receptive many times to, you know what? You're right. I got that wrong. So I thought our relationship was enough to where I can say, hey, you're getting it wrong. That's clueless. She lost it. Just lost it. And then was like, well, let me tell you something about you and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was like. I said, honey, take a step back. Hold on a second. Reread what I wrote. Reread what I said. I said, this is coming from a good place. I said, you're clueless. You are clueless. I am clueless about this. This. This is not. It didn't mean harm. Maybe I can choose a better word. But you don't know. You're not in these spaces. You can't understand. And you are harming people by the things that you're saying. I mean, they had. They posted these horrible, horrible memes and quotes about Kamala Harris. And I was like, you keep insulting black woman women. I'm a black woman. I see your post. And she didn't take that well.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:15] That's also, like, boundary, by the way, which is brilliant. But it's like, I love this idea of, like, you know, giving her feedback, direct feedback. And you have every right to protect yourself in those situations. Just, you know, because she's doing harm and you're in relationship with her to. To say, absolutely not. Like, right now, this is causing harm. You are not seeing that. You are causing me, your, like, friend or supposed friend harm with the things that you're saying.

John Dehlin [01:27:45] So I. I just, you know, I have to be careful about how I talk about this. But because we're talking about it, I want to just address one quick thing, you know, so There's. There's politics, which is like, oh, I like Republican policies. I like conservative policies, or I'm Democrat. I like liberal policies. And that reasonable people can have reasonable points of view about policy on either side. This is a nonpartisan show, period. Okay. There was a level of animosity that I saw towards Barack and Michelle Obama.

Chanel Achenbach [01:28:24] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:28:26] And that I saw, that I see about Kamala Harris. Setting aside Barack Obama's politics.

Chanel Achenbach [01:28:33] Correct.

John Dehlin [01:28:34] Setting aside Kamala's politics. I. Before Barack Obama, I never heard anyone refer to a president as the devil as Satan. Somehow that crept into the acceptable political discourse once Obama became president, where all of a sudden, was okay to call a president the devil, literally. And. And again, you know, I know that Kamala Harris has a personality just like Hillary Clinton. As a strong woman, sure, we could talk about misogyny after we talk about racism. Like, I understand why a strong woman being vocal rubs a lot of people the wrong way.

Chanel Achenbach [01:29:17] Sure.

John Dehlin [01:29:18] But. But the level of animosity that sometimes is leveled towards black political figures is people's. People can hide racism in a cloak of political partisanship. And it's. It's troubling when you see it happen for me, and I imagine it's probably more troubling for you.

Chanel Achenbach [01:29:40] Like you said, politics aside, we're not talking about policies. We're talking about the people that are in politics. And this is what you have to understand. As I read my journal, so for a long time, people compliment me and say, your hair looks nice. You look pretty. And I would lose it. I would start sobbing. And they're like, okay, that's not a good response. Well, in Mormonism, everything about. About being black makes me ugly. Okay. They were saying Michelle Obama was ugly and that she looked like a man. They were saying, Kamala Harris is ugly. She looks like a monkey and a cheetah. They were saying Katanji Jackson, the justice. She looks weird with her hair. Beyonce is a. All of these derogatory things about black women, yet the white women that were actually doing these naughty things, they have a word to say. We know about certain people's wives, other president's wives, what they've done. I didn't bring that up, but. And then to say that black women are masculine and ugly and look like apes and look like men. And to talk about Serena Williams, to then to just shred Meghan Markle compared to Kate, Y' all don't like black women. I don't care what you say, because I'm seeing all of your. Facebook is a different place. Than TikTok or Instagram. These are people that you both have chosen to add as friends.

John Dehlin [01:31:18] So they're not hiding behind fake names.

Chanel Achenbach [01:31:19] They're using their real names. They are using their real names.

John Dehlin [01:31:22] Yeah.

Chanel Achenbach [01:31:23] And they are just shredding Rihanna. They are shredding Katanji. And so they're. They're shredding me, too. Not only they're shredding me by shredding these women, but they are actively saying things to me.

John Dehlin [01:31:37] And the. Yeah, the point I'm making is they're. They're. They're not saying necessarily anything about blackness. They're hiding it in political. Political differences or, of course, more general features.

Chanel Achenbach [01:31:54] Sure.

John Dehlin [01:31:55] But it's kind of obvious that it's dripping with racism. Just with the words kind of swapped out.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:01] It's kind of. Oh, yeah, sorry, go ahead.

Chanel Achenbach [01:32:04] No, you go ahead.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:05] It's kind of the difference between, like, that covert versus overt.

John Dehlin [01:32:08] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:09] Racism.

John Dehlin [01:32:09] It's covert.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:10] Yeah. Yeah. Sorry.

John Dehlin [01:32:11] I may not even feel covert to you. What were you gonna say?

Chanel Achenbach [01:32:13] No, she's. She's right. And what I noticed is that I would say, you know what? I'm going to step back and not feel hurt, and I'm going to ask you, so what is it about their policies? I'm not going to turn this to political thing, but I would ask them, tell me about their policies, because maybe I can understand where you're coming from. Crickets. I know a lot about politics, so I was like, I'm listening. I would like to hear about which policies that she's done, he's done, they've done. That is so horrible that makes you think these things about them. Not a word. Yeah, not a word.

John Dehlin [01:32:54] Yeah. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:57] So for a minute, can I go back to white women? Is that okay? Because I really want to talk about. I kind of really want to. You know. So I've heard a few things in you describing a couple of your relationships. Right. I'm hearing kind of this idea of white women, a heavy emphasis on, like, them idealizing themselves and. And kind of putting you in your place. Right. And then I'm hearing a lot of times this idea of your reality isn't real to them. It's kind of just their. Their reality that they kind of place over you and kind of try. Try to tell you kind of how it should be. And then this syrupy, like, kind of the context is that they're your friend. So they use kind of that trust in a way to control and hurt you. Am I getting that right? And am I Missing key parts too. Because I think this is really important

John Dehlin [01:34:01] and just to give you a full chance to answer. Add on top of that kind of like a status where they're able to talk down to you in a way that maybe makes them feel superior, makes them feel better because they get to coach you.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:34:17] Provide you with direct help.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:19] They're being providing help or helping you.

John Dehlin [01:34:21] They're showing service to the person who needs love. So you're almost reinforcing their ego, making them feel like they're great because they're helping lowly who needs help.

Chanel Achenbach [01:34:33] Yeah. Oh, definitely. And some of them, I mean, there are some significant things that happen to my children, some horrible things that happened and not having support. I've had some support for, for some of them. And they would be like, you see, we don't have problems and people don't harm us. And we are doing well financially because of how we live. The Lord blesses us because how we live. You obviously are not blessed. I mean, look what you do and where you live compared to us. You need to get it right. And when you get it right, he will bless you. I had one friend end a friends with me when I was dating someone because she said she didn't like him. She didn't think he was doing enough and said, this is what she said to me and got really mama hen. She said, you need to break up with him. And I was like, what? No. She's like, you need to break up with him. He's not doing this, he's not doing that, and you need to listen to me. And I said, no, I'm older than you, first of all, I got 15 years on you and I think I'm doing okay. She's like, nope. Even though she's too has been married three times, but she knew better than me and that I needed to listen to her. And so I refused to listen to her. And so she hung up on me, stopped talking to me for a few days. And so I, I got upset. I unfriended her, I blocked her. And then she sent her husband to me. And I was like, wow. Because I wouldn't take her calls. And so he kept trying to call me. I said, I want to talk, I don't want to talk, I don't want to talk. So he comes over and force tries to force me. She wants to talk to you, you need to talk to her. I go, I don't want to talk to her. He's like, you need to talk to her. And so I eventually talked to her. But. And then the thing about it is, I do not like that person. I was. Do you know how many times I apologized to her? I didn't do anything except say, I won't listen to you on this. This relationship. And she says, I accept. I still remember many times trying to make sure her and I were good and apologizing profusely. And she's like, okay, I accept that. Okay, but don't do it again, okay? And I was like, okay, okay. So another one. She was upset because she told me to get off of TikTok. This is also public. The ones I'm talking about are public that you can see, so that I'm not, you know, telling private things that happen between us. She told me to get off Tik Tok. And I said, no, I like Tik Tok. And she says, well, Tik Tok is being invaded by China and they're going to steal your. Your data. You never listen to me. I always get it right. You always get it wrong. That's why your life sucks. You're not listening to me. And I said, I like Tik Tok. She goes, fine, stay asleep and never talk to me. Ever talk to me again. So then I keep thinking about these relationships I have with these women. If they tell me to do something and I refuse because before, remember, they could tell me what to do and I would listen. How can I be better? What can I do to be a good wife? What can I do to be a great example? You need to do this. You need to do this. How long. How many scriptures are you reading? Are you reading for an hour? Are you reading for 30 minutes? I read 30 minutes. You need to read an hour. Okay, what I need to do. You need to not hang out with that friend. That friend is bad. Look at my friends. My girlfriends are wealthy. They have good husbands. They go on trips. You don't do any of that stuff. So those people are not good for you. Okay, Okay. I am good for you. I always look out for you. Don't I look out for you? Yes. Okay, then you need to listen. Okay? You need to listen. You're not getting it. This is how most of them talk to me. And I told you the one that was telling me. Me and my husband laugh about this because she was like, well, you're not going to be successful in this MLM unless you do what you're told. You need to listen to us. We know better. And I mean, just kind of conversations I had with her about black people and about poor People and what she thought about black and poor people or people she considered poor. It was weird.

John Dehlin [01:38:38] I mean, I guess I'm noticing this contradiction of they're helping you. Sometimes they provide you with financial support.

Chanel Achenbach [01:38:45] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:38:46] Social support or friend. Friendship support.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:49] Or is that like kind of white savior, though?

John Dehlin [01:38:52] Yeah, it's like, I. I get to help you, and so you need to be grateful. But what comes with that is, number one, I get to also act like I'm better than you and talk down to you. And then you exist to help me feel like I'm a great person because I'm giving charity to those who are unfortunate. And I get to give tips to somebody who needs to learn to live better, to live more like me. So you're kind of being kept in a lower place so that white Mormon women can feel better about themselves. I don't know how else to say it.

Chanel Achenbach [01:39:23] You know, John, I don't. I don't think people really understand how deep it gets with being in their presence sometimes. It was like, oh, I need to hurt myself to make you feel better. Okay, watch this, watch this. Look, I punched myself in the face laughing about it. Good. Do it again. Do it again. I'm a shuck and jive for you. What else do you need me to do? Yeah, black people are stupid, right? We're stupid. Yeah, you guys are stupid. Okay. What else you gonna. Oh, let me call your kids some names. You know, they're little nigglets. And I'm like, what? What? Wait, what? And then have to accept that because she was helping at a time when I was going through a divorce. What was I gonna do? So let me just. Let me just keep hurting myself to make you feel good. Is that enough? Is that funny for you? What else do I need to do to make sure you're not going to go anywhere? It's almost like prostituting yourself. You know, I know it's harmful, but I don't care. At that point, I am desperate. At that point, I am terrified. At that point, no matter how hard I am working as Red Robin, I busted my ass. They. They noticed that. You know, I did. You know, I. I wasn't late. I never was late. I don't care if it was snowing. I don't care if I was sick. It was important to me to not be late. If I had to be there at 10, I was there at 9:30.

John Dehlin [01:40:45] Like with us, you're always there. You almost beat us here at Mormon Story Studios.

Chanel Achenbach [01:40:48] I don't want to be late because somebody that's somebody else's time that rather you agree to it or they ask you to. You don't waste people's time, especially at business. So I wasn't going to be late.

John Dehlin [01:40:58] But you also don't want to fulfill the negative stereotype.

Chanel Achenbach [01:41:01] Oh, that too. Oh, gosh, no. I worked. I, you know, black people are lazy. They always want a handout. No, I busted my ass and it still wasn't enough. It still wasn't enough. Going to school, trying to go to school, trying to raise kids, trying to do all this, it's not enough. It's deficient. So I can never see my kids and have daycare, which was taking, you know, the state help with part of that. But I still had to pay my part. So I'm supposed to manage a car payment, supposed to manage insurance, manage my household and manage daycare. Daycare for two kids. Even back then that was more than my rent, car and insurance. But I had to work and just. You need to get a better job. Okay, so if I get a better job, this is what the job requires, that I don't miss work. I have children. I will miss work. I have babies that are 15 months apart. I will miss work. The restaurant is flexible because if I call in, they can implement another server or they can give somebody to cover other jobs. It's not like that. And they will fire you.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:10] Yeah, it reminds me too, when you're talking of using. It's actually privilege, their lives. A lot of, well, I'll just speak for myself. Like a lot of the lives that we enjoy are, are, you know, privilege, privilege that we have. But they're using it like it's virtue, like it's goodness. And then using that as sort of like in a violent, aggressive way against you. Like just do this. See how virtuous I am. See how, you know, good I am. And that's why my life looks like this and your life over there, because you're. When in fact it's. It's actually privilege. Right. That they have those things as opposed to. So it's like weaponizing. It's, it's weaponizing their privilege and calling it something else.

Chanel Achenbach [01:43:04] With you, I mean, always. And it's. Then it starts to, well, you. We don't like the way you're dressing because, you know, you shoulder. And I don't want you around my husband. I think what you're doing for a career is disgusting. You know, you want to give massages. You went to massage school. That is gross. And it's just like why is that gross? Because you have a misconception about massage. You making. You're making it something that. It's not just. Just different things. Like, well, I don't want you to come around our family. Not because you're a bad person, but I just think. I just think the way that you are and the way that you dress is just so inappropriate. You know, it's just so weird. And so that would probably be best. Now, I love you and I'm saying this with love, but there's just something really wicked about you. Got it. You know, it's just.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:04] Yeah.

Chanel Achenbach [01:44:06] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:07] I'm so sorry. Really. I'm really so, so sorry.

Chanel Achenbach [01:44:16] Just weird.

John Dehlin [01:44:18] And if you went back to these, let's just say, white Mormon women to try and have this conversation, I imagine what they would think in their minds is, but we helped her.

Chanel Achenbach [01:44:27] We.

John Dehlin [01:44:28] We helped her so many times.

Chanel Achenbach [01:44:29] That's what they keep saying.

John Dehlin [01:44:30] How ungrateful.

Chanel Achenbach [01:44:31] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:44:32] Her food. I helped her kids. We gave her money. How could she be so. No good deed goes unpunished. No matter how much we tried to help her. She had to talk bad about us.

Chanel Achenbach [01:44:42] Like, she's very ungrateful. I get that a lot.

John Dehlin [01:44:45] Yeah. And that's. I mean, can it be both? Can it be that they did help you? But also, there's a bigger problem that needs to be addressed and we should be able to talk about it. And maybe they harmed you, too, and maybe there was some self interest woven into the times that they helped you. That also a lot of guilt, right?

Chanel Achenbach [01:45:03] Yeah, I can tell that they had a lot of guilt. And what, what, what? You notice if you ever had mean girls or mean people and you walk into a room and you notice the room gets really weird and silent when you walk in. They're like, hey, how are you doing? I'm like, okay, something's off here. Same thing is that you know that they have thoughts about you. And some are so bold, they like to tell you, yeah, I think you suck. Yeah, I think your life is terrible. Yeah, I think you're evil. That doesn't mean I don't love you. That doesn't mean I'm not saying this without love. They keep saying this, but I still love you. You're evil. You're terrible. You're cursed. You're Mark. You're deplorable. But I still love you and love this. Love the sinner, hate the sin. I will always love you. No matter how evil, wicked, and terrible you are, I'm still gonna love you.

Margi Dehlin [01:45:55] You.

Chanel Achenbach [01:45:55] But I'm not gonna be nice to you. I'm not gonna have you over anymore. I'm gonna ignore you. I'm gonna be passive aggressive and say things to you. I'm gonna make. I'm not going to interact with anything you say. Great. That's happening in your life. But when you say something I don't like, I'm going to come up and say something mean to you because I love you. That is my relationship with these women. It's. But the other thing is I just talked to a woman yesterday who's been my friend for 22 years. I work with her at Red Robin. She's white, she's not Mormon. What does she do? She's extremely busy. She's wealthy. She, her and her husband have a wonderful company that they participate in. And what does she do? She Marco Polo me and said, hey, I got some time. And she, the way she looked at me was like. She was like, she goes, tell me what you're doing because I know you're going crazy right now with all the Hallmark Christmas movies. Tell me what you're doing. That's. How hard is that? How hard is that for these other women to do that? She sees what I post sometimes. She doesn't always agree with what I post. She doesn't always agree with what, what, who or what I'm about. But this is how she was. She's like, oh my gosh, you know, I know that your 13 trees are about to get decorated. I know this. Oh my gosh. And then you, your grandson had his birthday, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. That was a conversation. How hard is that?

John Dehlin [01:47:25] She sees you.

Chanel Achenbach [01:47:26] She sees me, she sees me. She's my cheerleader. It's not that hard.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:31] Right. And back to your comment. Just one idea I have about when you were bringing out. Well, it sounds like the white women helped you some and then hurt you some. But it can maybe it's both. Maybe they did actually help you. I just always fall back to that alok, like that alok statement about a use versus care. And I think sometimes it gets real, real messy there. But what I'm hearing anyway from Chanel is this idea of feeling so used by white women, feeling so much commentary as like that's what I'm hearing having white women feel like they can truly comment from the white kind of reality point of view in a way that's using. It's. It's not care because what I'm hearing is you don't feel seen. Your reality isn't seen. You're not heard, heard. You're not actually, you know, valued in that way. And so for me, it feels abusive. It feels abusive to give in one moment, here's money, or here's something you need that we see that systemically you don't get to have because you don't have the privilege we have. So here, enjoy that. But the cost to you is that I actually view you as less than me. And I'm going to remind you of that. And anytime you share voice or spirit with me, I'm going to put you back where you belong. That, to me, is abusive, much like another abusive relationship where sometimes you get flowers or chocolates after you're beaten. To me, it's not that different. So I really appreciate you sharing something that clearly has been really painful for you in your life.

Chanel Achenbach [01:49:26] Yeah, I. Not an easy thing to hear. Because it's true. Because you think about these women, that you try everything you can to see them for who they are, their mistakes and all, but they refuse to do that for you. Why is that so hard? And a woman on Tick Tock said, fear. She said, yeah, we're afraid of you guys, but it's not for the reason that you think. And why would you kick? I hate this analogy, but I don't know any other way to help people understand. Why would you kick a dog

John Dehlin [01:50:21] that

Chanel Achenbach [01:50:21] keeps licking you, loves you, lets you pet them? And you kick it and it keeps coming back and you kick it and you feed it, and then you kick it and then it comes back again. Because it thinks and believes while you feed it. You must love it. And when I think about these women, I am not their equal. And they've explained that I couldn't be their equal because they are motivated by material things. They're motivated by material things and they're like, you don't have these things, so you are not the same as us. And the reason why I were able to treat you like this is because you deserve it. Because you don't say nice things. You say things we don't like. What do you think's gonna happen?

John Dehlin [01:51:13] Meaning you criticize the church.

Chanel Achenbach [01:51:15] Correct. That's what you get. That's what you deserve. But even before that, what about when I was active? What is their reasoning then?

John Dehlin [01:51:33] It's a treadmill. They just keep you on the treadmill. You're always hustling to be good enough. No matter where you are, you're never good enough. And you always have to keep hustling.

Chanel Achenbach [01:51:46] But even trying to move forward a little bit, that's not right. I mean, what kind of mother leaves her kids and goes and does that? You need a husband. Stay there. But consistently telling me a place I belong and putting me there. No, we're going to grab you and put you right back there. You stay right there. Do as you're told.

John Dehlin [01:52:15] Thank you so much. It shouldn't be your job to educate us, but thank you so much for being willing to help us understand your experience and how we all need to learn to do better. Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [01:52:29] You're welcome.

John Dehlin [01:52:31] So this second marriage lasted over a decade.

Chanel Achenbach [01:52:35] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:52:35] You had two kids with this man? He never joined the church?

Chanel Achenbach [01:52:39] No.

John Dehlin [01:52:40] And when that marriage ended, how was that?

Chanel Achenbach [01:52:45] So that was how many years ago I divorced him. 2014.

John Dehlin [01:52:50] Okay, so we're talking. We're talking eight years ago. And what was. What was your relationship with the church at that point? And was there any fallout with the church for that second divorce? And at the point with that marriage ended, were you still active and faithful?

Chanel Achenbach [01:53:07] I was still active and faithful.

John Dehlin [01:53:08] Okay, and was there fallout from that? Were there disciplinary councils in that?

Chanel Achenbach [01:53:13] No, not at all.

John Dehlin [01:53:14] Okay.

Chanel Achenbach [01:53:14] That was. That was a fair time. Like, I didn't mind going to church. The ward I was in seemed. They seemed to do it differently than other people. And what I mean by that is the bishop at the time tried. He tried with as much understanding as he can possibly give to include my family and I. He really did. He really meant well with that. He couldn't possibly know. Or maybe he didn't know of other people's thoughts, though, and what they thought. A Relief Society president, she. She meant well, too. All of these people meant well and did well until. And we'll just leave it at that until we get to that point. Every one of them seemed to do

Margi Dehlin [01:54:14] book

Chanel Achenbach [01:54:16] to do good until.

The Church's Response to Racism and Leaving

John Dehlin [01:54:19] Okay, so the year that things really started to tank with the church was. Was what year?

Chanel Achenbach [01:54:28] 2016.

John Dehlin [01:54:29] Okay. And your second marriage ended again, what year?

Chanel Achenbach [01:54:32] 2014.

John Dehlin [01:54:33] Okay. So. So those two years, you're back a single mom again, and now you've got four kids as a single mom still in the church. Anything you want to say about that before we kind of end this episode? And I guess the part three will be when. When the Mormon. When your Mormon kind of dream slash nightmare falls apart completely. Anything else about your life you want to share? Those final two years as a single mom again, was that hard to be? At what age were you a single mom again with four kids now, see, I'm 50 now.

Chanel Achenbach [01:55:12] That was eight years ago. So 42 in my 40s.

John Dehlin [01:55:15] What was it like being a single Mormon black mom in Utah at 42? Any better than at the younger age? Yes, worse.

Chanel Achenbach [01:55:24] Here's the thing, the reason, like, I'm trying to think, why was I so active at that point? I was sick. I was extremely sick. Like, very ill. Meaning I had a doctor say, all right, we got to do something or you're gonna die. Like, you are not doing well. Your high blood pressure. I mean, I was in the er, like, every other week with nosebleeds, passing out. Blood pressure like 216 over 180. I mean, things were bad. Like, I was not doing well. And they were helping a lot. Like, hey, do you need somebody to bring dinner? And I knew that as long as I went to church, if something happened to me, somebody could grab my kids. So I didn't go to church because I believed I went to church to survive. So if I go to church and I pass out right here, at least there's a bunch of people around. I'm home alone. I'm home alone with four children. If I pass out and die in front of my kids, that's not going to go well. So at least if I'm at church, God's not going to let me go in front of the church, right? Like, I'm going to church. I'm doing the right thing. So all of these health issues are not going to happen at church. So I'm going to go. And I was early. So when the word, when the church started, 8:30. I was there at 8, front row, ready to go. I'm not dying at church. I know that nothing happened at church.

John Dehlin [01:56:55] And I don't want to say that the Mormonism was the cause of your illnesses, but I just can't imagine several decades of living under this. What I would say is a culturally oppressive slash to your point, Margi, abusive system, how that couldn't impact your physical health. And if that's the case, then to me, it's another example of the church causing an illness that then they offer themselves as the cure for sure.

Chanel Achenbach [01:57:25] Like, I don't think they'll ever get it unless I explain it and talk about it. And in a room full of a hundred people, maybe only three will get it. And the rest don't want to hear it. But of course it did, because what am I doing now? I am questioning heavily. This is my second marriage. I'm questioning God. I'm questioning me. I'm questioning, questioning them. I need answers to know how to maneuver. So I am Trying to work. I am now worried about four children instead of two. Things are not good. And I'm trying to trust these people around me to get answers on how to live, what to do. And the people I'm hanging around are saying racist things on holidays, you know, or really, you know, remember, the Obamas were depressed, you know, the couple at that time. So I was consistently hearing, we're not talking about their policies. We're hearing things. I mean, we had this one kid, and we laugh about it now because we don't know how to take it, but he came to the table, we're eating, and he says, oh, yeah, he says some really derogatory things about President Obama. And I said, said, do you know what you just said? Do you know how. How racist that is? He goes, no. My mom says that. And I said, you can't say that. He's like, why? And we all educated him. Like, my kids were getting mad. My one is feisty. And she was like, I'm gonna hit him. I'm like, don't you dare.

John Dehlin [01:58:57] And comfortable sharing what he said.

Chanel Achenbach [01:58:59] Yeah, he said that. He said that Obama was a porch monkey. And I was like, porch monkey? I haven't heard that in years. And I said, do. He was 17, and it's a Mormon kid. Yeah. And I said, do you know what that is? He's like, yeah, he is a porch monkey. And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no. Listen, listen, listen. You cannot say that. And he called my daughter inward, and they did get in a physical altercation. But I told him, I said, sweetheart, do you understand how bad that is? He's like, why? My mom says this? And I was like, I'm gonna have some words with your mom. And we. We sat there and he was crying, and we were upset, and. And I said, honey, you can't say that. You're saying it around me, a person who loves you. You're gonna say that around a black person that doesn't love you and they are going to hurt you. That brings out some very, very intense emotions. Maybe they won't physically hurt you. Maybe verbally they will. But I'm gonna tell you they're not gonna like that. Those are some very harmful things. And he was like, sorry. And

John Dehlin [02:00:05] you said your kids were teaching him too.

Chanel Achenbach [02:00:08] 1. Unfortunately, they were teaching each other, and they got in a physical altercation that was not fun because he was screaming, N word. N word. And she didn't take that well. We were like, no, they were fighting, and we talk about that now because it was just so weird to see a girl fighting a boy because he said the N word to her, and he was screaming it at her.

John Dehlin [02:00:31] So I'm so sorry. Yeah, okay. All right. So you're. You're kind of having a physical breakdown during those years of being single post second divorce. Anything else you want to share before we kind of end part two and. And then come back for part three about kind of your leaving the Mormon Church?

Chanel Achenbach [02:00:58] I just wonder what it would have looked like had they just been like, we gotcha. No strings attached. Like, you don't have to take this. When you tell us you, this is not comfortable or this is wrong, or this is actually a racist thing that we say. Hey, we're sorry. We got it wrong. Let's figure out what we can do. Let's pray about it. Let's have a blessing or something to know that these things that we're saying about black people are not okay. I mean, I'll say one last thing, but, for example, my children obviously have different skin tones. That is for many reasons.

John Dehlin [02:01:39] Oh, you were talking about because you married a white man. Your third and fourth children are treating different skin.

Chanel Achenbach [02:01:47] They had a way lighter skin, different texture, hair, different facial features. And so one day I did walk in, and there was four kids with me. So even just being fully black, you're gonna have different skin tones. My. My ex husband was darker than me. One of my children is darker, and one of them is lighter. Lighter than me. They have the same dad. So then my two with a white man. One is very, very white. Passing you. You wouldn't know she was black. They tell her she's not black. And then my son looks more. They say he looks more Polynesian. He has a darker skin tone. So I walk in with four kids, little babies. You know, they're kids, and I kid you not, a woman comes up to me, this is before church is starting. It's like, you know, you're starting to find the pew. Where you gonna sit? And she says, oh, my gosh. Do all your kids have the same dad? And I go, what? She's like, well, there's four, and they're all different skins. Oh, my gosh. Do they all have the same dad? I was not nice. I said, ask your husband. And I walked away. And I went and sat down. I was really angry. I was very offended. That was just not a good question that, like, who cares? Like, what if they did? What if each one of them. What if all four of my children each Had a different dad. Who cares? Why does it matter? I didn't ask her any questions about her life. Yeah. I was not nice

John Dehlin [02:03:15] on the one hand, I guess all over the world, people are going to say and do racist things. This is the church that claims to be led by God. This is the church that claims to be led by Jesus. This is the church with hundreds of billions of dollars and the church that claims to love black people, and they could educate 5 million members in a weekend and make it all better. And so I guess where much is given, kind of much is expected. The church in a weekend could. Could solve that problem.

Chanel Achenbach [02:03:50] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:03:51] But they. But they don't. They say, you know, they'll say whatever PR Things they can say to avoid an actual apology and then to say, look, we donated a couple of million dollars, the NCAA, P&L, ACP. We're not racist. Those. Those things that were said in the past. That's folklore. That's not. They could fix it, but they don't. They put lipstick on, you know, something.

Chanel Achenbach [02:04:16] They could fix it.

John Dehlin [02:04:17] Yeah.

Chanel Achenbach [02:04:18] General Conference. They can fix it.

John Dehlin [02:04:19] Yeah.

Chanel Achenbach [02:04:20] But they know what they've created. Won't accept that. That will not go well because there's

John Dehlin [02:04:26] too many racist members.

Chanel Achenbach [02:04:28] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:04:28] That would leave the church question, the. You know, the inspiration of the leaders. If they recanted, if they explicitly denounced and apologized for the racist past, they would lose too many of the racist members they themselves created from the church.

Chanel Achenbach [02:04:49] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:04:49] Is that unfair?

Chanel Achenbach [02:04:50] That is absolutely fair.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:53] And they're tithing dollars.

John Dehlin [02:04:55] Yeah, of course. Yeah. These days, the church can't afford to be losing anybody because they're losing people in droves anyway.

Chanel Achenbach [02:05:02] Oh, yeah. This would just. The Exodus. I don't think they could withstand that. It will crumble and different sex will start.

John Dehlin [02:05:11] Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's super hard. All right.

Chanel Achenbach [02:05:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:05:21] Well, I guess, should we say that's part two of our interview with Chanel Eckenbach, and we're gonna grab lunch and then we'll come right back.

Margi Dehlin [02:05:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:05:32] Either later today or another time. And we're gonna do part three, which is how the. The Mormon dream. And I say that Chanel's Mormon dream, how it. How it fell apart.

Margi Dehlin [02:05:45] Yeah. And maybe. And maybe with a touch of reconstruction.

Chanel Achenbach [02:05:48] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:05:49] With a heavy dose of reconstruction. Yeah. You strike me as a happy, healthy person, so. So you've done some healing and growing.

Chanel Achenbach [02:05:59] So when you have a disease and you took the medication and you no longer have that disease, you're gonna feel better. That's the best way I can describe it. Ooh.

John Dehlin [02:06:09] Stay tuned. Beautiful three.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:06:11] Do not go away. Come right back, because part three is going to be good. Chanel, none of us probably understand how courageous and resilient it is for you to be telling these stories today. And you. You tell these stories so gracefully. You're just so used to being strong and resilient. But I know this isn't fun, easy stuff to talk about, so thank you.

Chanel Achenbach [02:06:41] You're welcome.

John Dehlin [02:06:42] Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. And thank you, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:06:49] You're brilliant as always.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:51] Yeah. I'm grateful to be here.

John Dehlin [02:06:53] All right. All right, everyone. Thanks for joining us today. Come right back for part three of our interview with Chanel Achenbach about her Mormon story. Take care. See you on the flip side.

Part Three Begins: The Breaking Point in 2016

Part 3 of 3 · Ep. 1714

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's December 6, 2022, and we are here in part three of a powerful, heartwarming, thoughtful and epic Mormon Stories interview. Three part series with Chanel Achenbach. Hey, Chanel.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:20] Hey.

John Dehlin [00:00:21] How you doing?

Chanel Achenbach [00:00:22] I'm doing good.

John Dehlin [00:00:22] You ready for round three?

Margi Dehlin [00:00:24] Maybe,

John Dehlin [00:00:26] yeah. You're coming back for more? We're like, hey, if you want to take the night off, we'll come back another time. You're like, nope, I'm Rocky. Yeah. And of course, we've got Margi with us again. Hey, Margi, thanks for writing Shotgun.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:38] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:00:39] So for those who haven't joined us for parts one and two and just stumble on this, this is part three and a three part series. In part one, we talked with Chanel about her joining the Mormon church as a black teenager. R.A. around 18 in San Antonio way back in the day. Talked about how she served a mission in the south just a couple years after her baptism, ended up in Utah. And we got up to kind of her first marriage she was pressured into by fellow white Utah Mormons here in Utah and how that didn't go so well and a lot of kind of racism and white supremacy that she experienced in, in those first early years as a black Mormon. We ended and then came back for part two where she talked about kind of the aftermath of her first divorce disciplinary council that happened within the context of that first marriage. And then of course, a second marriage to a white man such that her, her second set of children were biracial and kind of her experiences as a black woman in Utah, in the Mormon church, again experiencing just way too much racism and white supremacy. And we kind of focused on white Mormon women in Utah and how they interacted with Chanel and how that was harmful, you know, helpful with air quotes, but also harmful. And we ended part two with Chanel's second marriage also failing eventually. I guess I shouldn't say fail ending. Yeah, some say when a marriage ends, it's not necessarily failure. Sometimes it was successful while it was there, and sometimes it's a good thing that it ended. So it shouldn't be called a failure. But regardless, by the end of her second marriage, she has four children. And your physical health wasn't super good. And by this point, we're in the 2000, we're about seven, eight years ago, when you're kind of in your early 40s, when you're kind of single again with four kids as a divorced black Single mom in Utah.

Chanel Achenbach [00:02:49] Right.

John Dehlin [00:02:50] And that's kind of where we left it. And so the focus for part three with Chanel Achenbach is going to be her faith crisis as a black Mormon woman, convert, single, divorced, in Utah. And what would cause her, honestly, after sacrificing so much for the Mormon Church to join it, to be in it, to move, to relocate to Utah, to be, in some ways, I don't want to say estranged, but it certainly affected her family relationships. She gave everything to the church for a good couple decades, including mission service and everything. What would cause her after all that, to start really questioning, is it and. Or to finally kind of part ways? So that's what we're in for. Part three, along with what Margi likes to say is her favorite part, which is reconstruction. So we don't like to just deconstruct Mormonism, but we also like to talk about how people who feel like they want to or need to leave the church, how they build a happy, healthy life afterwards. So we're going to talk about that as well. So where should we pick up, Chanel?

Chanel Achenbach [00:04:04] We should pick up to where I was like, oh, my gosh, there's no way I can continue to remain in this.

John Dehlin [00:04:12] Okay, so you're so your second. Your second marriage ends for a couple years. You have real serious health problems. Was there some breaking point or series of breaking points that really brought. Because there's always this point where you were not really willing to ask yourself, is it true? Is it really true? Could it be not true? There are all ways that we've been programmed to never let ourselves even ask that question. Can you take us to the point after your second marriage fails, before you meet Brian or.

Chanel Achenbach [00:04:46] Yeah, before I met Brian.

John Dehlin [00:04:47] Before you meet Brian, where you were, where you started, whatever happened that led you to start being open to reconsidering your testimony that you got when you're 18, what happened?

Chanel Achenbach [00:05:00] So it was 2016, and I just want everybody to know this is not going to be a political discussion, but I think it's important to bring up 2016 and why that was so instrumental in me finally leaving. It was election night. I was part of an mlm and they were predominantly Mormon, and they had been in a while, and everything was revolved around church, even in that they wanted to pray on calls, they wanted to talk about prophets, they wanted to talk about going to the temple to help them in the business. And I was getting annoyed because I'm like, okay, you wanted me to bring people into this, but the people that I know I'm working with are not Mormon. They're not going to want to hear this. This shouldn't be a religious atmosphere. This is a business atmosphere. So I was kind. Just getting annoyed and kind of trying to challenge that a little bit. And so that was causing some irritation.

John Dehlin [00:05:56] And let me just make sure I remember right. So Obama was elected in 2008. He served two terms, so he would have gone to 2016. So the 2016 election would have been Obama against Hillary. No, sorry. Donald Trump against Hillary Clinton.

Chanel Achenbach [00:06:12] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:06:13] Is that right?

Chanel Achenbach [00:06:13] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:14] That's the 2016 election.

Chanel Achenbach [00:06:16] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:16] I just want to make sure I got it in my memory.

Chanel Achenbach [00:06:18] Yeah, I think that's important.

John Dehlin [00:06:19] Okay, so it's. It's Hillary Clinton versus Donald Trump. Donald Trump. You're in an MLM in Utah. That could be its own episode, I'm sure.

Chanel Achenbach [00:06:27] Oh, my goodness.

John Dehlin [00:06:27] Yes. But we don't want to get sidetracked. So. Okay, what happened?

Political and Racial Tensions Among Church Members

Chanel Achenbach [00:06:32] So. So I'm listening to these people talk about religion and then just listening to them talk derogatory in a pretty specific way about Hillary Clinton. But, you know, I'm still just kind of listening. No big deal. And kind of just like, whatever, whatever. And then I think I was like, what? Remember, I've been semi safe around these people thinking I'm good. That, you know, we might have disagreements about how to execute different things and religious beliefs within the church, but we're good. You know, we're okay. We could tolerate each other. And then the racism was like, I kid you not, it was like they took off their coats and showed a shirt they're wearing to say I am a racist. Because the comments then were like, now we can say what we really feel

John Dehlin [00:07:27] was this after Trump was.

Chanel Achenbach [00:07:28] This was after Trump was declared president. President. I'm talking. I'm so glad we're not going to have that inward. Wait, what did you say?

John Dehlin [00:07:37] Meaning Obama?

Chanel Achenbach [00:07:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:38] In the White House.

Chanel Achenbach [00:07:39] Yeah. And I said, excuse me, I'm not talking about you, Chanel, but I am not a racist. I am calling him he. Him an N word because he's acting like an N word. And I was like, really? So what's an N word? I was like, like, wow. And so.

John Dehlin [00:07:58] And I don't mean to rub it in, but these are Mormons.

Chanel Achenbach [00:08:01] These are Mormons. Mormons in Utah. And so I'm just like, okay, wow. Okay, so that was starting. That was irritating. So then I'd complain about it to other members, and they're like, you know, no, no comment. Either way. Not. Not that don't question them or they shouldn't say that. Just indifferent. Like, nothing. Like, shut up, Chanel. Like, stop. And you're just causing problems. So I just kind of didn't say anything, but was irritated and a little uncomfortable. So, of course, there's a lot of. A lot of different situations with that. And just kind of now feeling like, these are my friends, like, they're not racist, right? They're not racist. They just said a racist thing. But that doesn't mean that they're racist, right? Like, do they really say these things when I'm not there? If they're saying this in front of me, do they say. So I'm trying to process what my friends are saying. And then it was gloves off. George Floyd died. Protest riots, and then gloves were off. They did not care. There was no misunderstanding. There was black people. There's black on black crime. Black people are awful. George Floyd that he's a criminal. If a black person wants to whine, if they're criminals and they're going to get shot, they deserve to get shot. And I'm like, wait a minute, hold up. You're telling me that if a plaque. A black person is a criminal, he is supposed to and will get shot by a cop. Wow. It's like, well, if you weren't doing anything wrong, you wouldn't get shot. And I was just like, what? This is death. This isn't. He got slapped with a night stick or got pushed. We're talking about death, execution. Because somebody said something you don't like, well, you have to respect the cops, okay? And so I would say to these same people, I said, okay. So, Bob, let me ask you a question.

John Dehlin [00:09:52] So.

Chanel Achenbach [00:09:53] So you're being disrespectful to me, right? Right now. Okay? You're being disrespectful to me. I don't like it. So therefore, I can kill you because you're being disrespectful to me. You just said a cop should kill somebody. That's disrespectful. That's okay. Said they're like, well, if they're a criminal, I said, okay, so what's a criminal? Let's define criminal. A criminal is what, a person that commits a crime, right? I said, so when you go to a buffet and you ask for water and you get a soda, that's a criminal act. That makes you a criminal. So if I'm a cop and you piss me off, I get to kill you. It's different then. Well, that's different. I said, that's not what you said. You said, a criminal disobeying a cop deserves to die. You're a criminal. I said, also, do you know that your kids laughing about unpants, you know, when you pull down somebody's pants and. Or you move the chair, Those are criminal things. So if you move somebody's chair and they fall, that is assault and battery. Rather, somebody, you know, takes you to jail or arrests you for it or not, that's assault. Okay? That's assault and battery. So that makes you a criminal because it's a criminal act. So now your children are criminals. And so a cop has a right to kill your child for being a criminal. Whoa, whoa. I said, oh, do you mean only if they're black? Right? And then the faces, oh, why are you making this about race? I said, you made it about race. You brought it up. You said, the only people that are rioting and looting are black people. That's not true. You said that there's black on black crime. That is not a thing. So you're listening to different news outlets and you're. You're saying these things. So I am a black person. I have black children. What are you then saying about my children then? Silence. So I'm having these conversations now. These are the consistent conversations now. I'm consistently fighting in the comments with these people that were my friends. Now we're into blackface. Now Halloween's coming around, and I'm saying, this is 2016. And I'm saying, hey, guys, when Halloween comes around, do not do blackface. It's offensive. Oh, you're offended because you want to be offended. I said, no, I'm saying it's offensive because it's offensive. So then we're having this discussion. So then that one friend takes it one step further. So we're 146 comments into this subject, arguing about it. And so he goes and gets a charcoal mask from his wife's Mary Kay box and puts on blackface and says, oh, you mean like this? This is a problem. Just a charcoal mask. And I'm like, really? Really? This is public. Just so you know, this is public. And I'm like, so this is what we're doing now? So black people deserve to be killed if they're criminals and they tell the police no or disrespectful to the police. Got it. And blackface is not a big deal

John Dehlin [00:12:56] because it's just makeup.

Chanel Achenbach [00:12:58] It's just makeup. So I'm. These are the conversations I'm consistently having

John Dehlin [00:13:03] In Utah with believing faithful Mormons active.

Chanel Achenbach [00:13:07] Believe Mormons. So then even at this mlm one says, I can say the N word because my brother is. My adopted brother is black, and I'm not a racist. Okay, but you just said it's okay to say the N word because your adopted brother is black. Why would you want to say that? Y' all say it to each other. My question to you is, why would you want to say it if you know that it is a word that has been used to harm? And why would you want to say it? I'm just listening. Tell me why you'd want to say it. Nobody had any answers. But now this is what I would consider hostile environment. I don't feel any safe place because people are consistently challenging and arguing with me about the lives of black people because they're disrespectful. I said, so a person deserves to be executed because they're disrespectful. Well, you need to listen. So I said now. So you're trying to exercise dominance over black people then. So now if we don't listen, we're going to get beaten or killed or worse, right? So these are the conversations I'm having. And now I'm getting really irritated. And now I am angry. I am pissed. Because who am I safe around? I never knew these people had these thoughts. I have no black people around me. I don't know any black people in Utah. Not one black person. And I am freaked out. I literally am like, are we really so much less. It is coming out. There was so much hate and contempt and disdain. I was just like, I now can't even speak on it because I still. This is bringing up so much shock, I guess. Like, you don't really believe that, right? You really cannot believe that we are so worth so little that we deserve to die from making a mistake. Oh, it's beyond mistakes. Cold, angry. Beyond mistakes. You people. You people. Who?

Margi Dehlin [00:15:20] What?

Chanel Achenbach [00:15:20] You people. Not you, Chanel. You're taking this out of context. Not you. You said you people. Who is you people? I am you people. Look at me. I am black. Understand that I'm black. So you're talking about me. You're talking about my children. Because when you're not in my presence and you're discussing this with your friends, they don't know me like you do, so they're talking about me, too. So when they come into contact with me and they think like this, I am not safe. And I don't think you get that. So now I'm Arguing in this tone I have now is what consistently I am now battling with members of the church that I thought understood that everybody's valuable.

John Dehlin [00:16:06] Like, I'm trying to wrap my brain around the fact that you're. By this point, you've been living in

Chanel Achenbach [00:16:10] Utah 15 years, since 97.

John Dehlin [00:16:14] Yeah. And you don't have a black friend and that.

Chanel Achenbach [00:16:16] Not one.

John Dehlin [00:16:17] That seems unbelievable, except for the fact that this state is comprehensively white. Unless you live in, like, a few little pockets where there are people of color. Like, there's some.

Chanel Achenbach [00:16:29] Yeah, I don't live in Oxid.

John Dehlin [00:16:32] And I mean, maybe there's Polynesians on kind of the west side of Salt Lake City, but, like, you can go to an entire high school and not know a black person in the whole high school unless they were recruited to come play basketball or football on the sports team. You can go to BYU and never know a black person unless you meet one of the athletes, you know, on. On the athletic teams. And. And it's just. It's so super white here that you had no white friends. And us Mormons can, like, never have to think about race. So of course we're not racist because we never even talk. We don't even know any black people, let alone ever have any interactions with them. So we can just all kind of convince ourselves that we don't see color, that we love all people. But it's. It's kind of just allowing. Allowing the racism to just live under the surface where it's never dealt with until it comes out in the open by kind of a. And then this isn't political, but by the Trump election. There's something about the Trump election that brought this out.

Chanel Achenbach [00:17:35] And then NFL Colin Kaepernick kneeling. Oh, my gosh, that was probably worse

John Dehlin [00:17:42] than talk about that.

Chanel Achenbach [00:17:44] Okay, so we hear Colin Kaepernick is in some hot water because he. He nailed. And so I like.

John Dehlin [00:17:52] During the what during the Pledge of Allegiance or during the national banner, national anthem for The San Francisco 49ers.

Chanel Achenbach [00:17:58] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:18:00] He.

Chanel Achenbach [00:18:00] He nailed. Because in solidarity and to protest inequality and racism and so forth. Right. So then I understood why he did that. So I tried to have conversations with people that wasn't happening. So what I said is, for example, Brian, I'd say, hey, Brian, I have a question for you. You have made some really nasty comments about Colin Kaepernick, about black people, about whiny black people. So let's talk about why he knelt. Nope, nothing to discuss. I said, okay, that's fine. So move on. To the next person. Hey, you want to discuss that? Sure. And I said, so I have a question for you. So do you know why he knelt? Yeah, because he's a jerk. I said, okay, but do you know why he knelt in? Why he was kneeling? Because he's being a jerk and just trying to start stuff. I said, okay, so besides how you're reacting to what he did, because I'm trying to ask you. So let me tell you why he knelt. I said, do you know all of the verses to the Star Spangled Banner? No. I said, so let's start there. I do. They're not good. Let's talk about what that song is about. We discussed that. And I said, so. Well, he shouldn't do it at his job. I said, okay, so let's talk about that.

John Dehlin [00:19:15] Wait, what's wrong with the Star Spangled Banner?

Chanel Achenbach [00:19:18] Well, there's a lot of verses, and they're not. They're not nice. They explain some things about slavery and about black people and why things are the way that they are. And I would like to pull up those words one of the days and discuss it. But I'm trying to stay away from politics. But it's not good.

John Dehlin [00:19:36] Okay? There's some racist stuff in the Star springing band.

Chanel Achenbach [00:19:38] It's not good.

John Dehlin [00:19:39] So it's not a great song to be.

Chanel Achenbach [00:19:40] It's not a great song, first of

John Dehlin [00:19:41] all, especially when the predominant. The majority of your athletes are black.

Chanel Achenbach [00:19:46] Correct? Correct.

John Dehlin [00:19:48] Okay.

Chanel Achenbach [00:19:48] So we're trying to have this discussion. So what I explained to them, I said, okay, so this is where I'm asking you to give me 20 minutes as your friend, to understand my perceptive. So you can better understand me and why I don't mind him kneeling, for one. Let's take away the song. You said he shouldn't be doing this at his job, that it shouldn't be political. Then why did he have to do it in the first place? Why did he have to stand for it at his job if he can't kneel at it at his job? No answer. And I said, okay. Also, before 1990, what happened? Because I'm a huge football fan. I have a Dallas Cowboy tattoo. I'm a huge football fan.

John Dehlin [00:20:27] So, O.J.

Chanel Achenbach [00:20:29] huh?

John Dehlin [00:20:29] Were you gonna say O.J. simpson or.

Chanel Achenbach [00:20:31] Heck, no, Dallas Cowboys. So I say to them, I say, okay, so the NFL before 1990, people weren't doing what? They weren't standing. So all of a sudden, who decided that they need to stand and why? And I said, so let me ask you a question. If it's so important to stand. Why are there still some people sitting when you know the camera's going through? And I said, and when you're at your house and it comes on, do you stand or are you sitting? But that's different. I said, no, it's not. So it's either important to you or it's not. We've associated something with that. That doesn't mean that you're wrong and I'm right. It just means that people should have a choice to decide what, no, he's just a prick and he's just racist and he's just this. And I said, okay, well, I tried to discuss it with you so that we can have a common ground, because I'm going to support the NFL because I love the NFL for the simple fact I love football. I'm from the south. We love football. This is our religion. But the man didn't deserve to lose his job and get all the hate because he did something. And I said, and just so you know, I worked for USAA for many years and I talked to military people and they said what he did was fine, that kneeling is more respectful than to do other things. If he went to a military base and he was protesting there, that makes sense. That's not what he did. He is at his job being told to stand. So he has a right to kneel if he chooses to do so. But you are entitled to your opinion. But when you, you made it about race by saying black people are always whining, if it's so bad, move to another country. And I'm saying, if you don't want to treat people with equality that's now promising amendments of the Constitution, then maybe you should leave the country. I mean, you see how that works. And so then these were hard conversations to navigate on a pretty consistent basis. NFL Colin Kaepernick. Candace Owens.

John Dehlin [00:22:26] Just what happened with Candace Owens?

Chanel Achenbach [00:22:29] So they essentially, they tried to tell me two things, that I should follow her and I should listen to her because I'm a black woman and she's a black woman.

John Dehlin [00:22:37] And for those who don't know who

Chanel Achenbach [00:22:38] Candice Owens is, that she's right wing, conservative black woman.

John Dehlin [00:22:45] And their point is that their point

Chanel Achenbach [00:22:47] is, see, she agrees with us that there's black on black crime. And I'm like, she doesn't speak for the black community. She speaks for herself. Because I understand my family. My family is all black and 50 things can be true at once. But when you are trying to oppress people even more, instead of Saying why? I asked these friends, why do you have statistics on black people? Why would you have statistics on black people? That's a weird thing to have. You don't have statistics on the rapists and the different things that happen here in Utah and the crimes, but you have them on black people. Why is that? Because you have a narrative you want to push. Why would you be talking to me about black people when you don't know any black person but me? That is weird and suspect. Explain yourself. So then, oh, you're contentious. You just want to start a fight now? I want you to explain yourself to me because you're saying you're my friend and I don't feel safe. I don't feel safe because of this. This is weird. This is scary, and this is alarming. You say that the people that are doing bad things in our country, that are bringing down our country, Mexican and black people. Because we are wild, we are criminals, and we're doing this. You're saying that in front of me. But it's not you, Chanel. I never said it was you. You're not like that. I'm not like what? That's my brother. That's my cousin. That's my mother. Those are my uncles that you're talking about. So when I say white people are racist, you get mad, right? Because you don't think you're racist. So if I'm talking about you, then it applies. If I'm not talking to you, then it doesn't apply. So is your mom a racist? Are your cousins racist? But if I do a blanket statement and say white people are racist, then that means all of you or the people that rise to it. So black on black crime. That is just really weird that you're saying that. And when you're trying to prove to me how awful and wicked black people are, why would you want to do that? What would be your reason for telling me how wicked and awful black people are? Because aren't we all sinners? Aren't we all wicked and evil and do things. Why just black people? No answers ever.

John Dehlin [00:25:10] How do you make sense of a Candace Owens? Because some would say she seems to be betraying her people.

Chanel Achenbach [00:25:17] Candace Owens is an opportunist. She meant well and nobody listened to her. And now she's being heard by doing the opposite. I think she meant well in the beginning. She questioned and said, hey, what's going on? And they told her to shut up. So then she said, okay, I'll take a different side then. And now you can't shut me up because I have their support.

John Dehlin [00:25:40] So I guess there's fame and money that comes along with parroting back whatever. Maybe the white people would want her

Chanel Achenbach [00:25:46] to say they love. Why you wouldn't believe how many people say, Candace Owens says this and she's black. And I said, that's funny. You keep telling me that Candace Owens agrees with your narrative of wicked black people, but that's funny. How many white people tell me that you all are racist. So that's a weird thing for you to try to push on me, and yet people that look like you don't agree with you, but you're not talking about them either. There are a lot of books written by people that look like you that talk about white fragility, white privilege and other things. They don't look like me, but you don't quote them to me. You quote her to me because you want to justify your racism. Doesn't work with me. I call bullshit.

John Dehlin [00:26:34] Mark is nodding.

Chanel Achenbach [00:26:36] Yeah, so that doesn't go over well.

John Dehlin [00:26:39] Yeah. Okay, so from your perspective, Candace Owis. Candace Owens is an opportunist.

Chanel Achenbach [00:26:45] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:26:47] Okay, so there's George Floyd, Colin Kaepernick, Candace Owens, Donald Trump, and Herschel Walker. Herschel Walker. Now that's. Now I know. Yeah, we'll come back to. We'll come back. We'll end with that. But.

Chanel Achenbach [00:27:02] I'm just kidding.

John Dehlin [00:27:03] But like, I guess it's like. I guess it's almost like for you, maybe in 2016, all these Mormons that you felt safe with, they kind of take the mask off and. Or put the hood on and reveal themselves who they really are. Is that too harsh to say?

Chanel Achenbach [00:27:24] John, I don't understand these people. There is no way in hell they would have thought this stuff or I could believe the things that were coming out of their mouth. So. So imagine if I stood up right now and I just ripped off my skin and I was an alien. I was green and I had slanted eyes and I was all this. You would be shocked, wouldn't you? You would feel like, wait, who are you? Same thing. I could never. I have no words to describe the different conversations and the things people were saying about black people.

John Dehlin [00:28:10] Well, believing Mormons.

Chanel Achenbach [00:28:12] We just have to say believing Mormons.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:15] Good.

Chanel Achenbach [00:28:16] I have some now that I don't even know how to manage the conversation, except I'm going to have to be brave. They're like, you understand that it's a Marxist, communist, socialist, disgusting thing that a lot of black people are asking for Chanel and don't Fall into that trap. And I'm looking at them like, meaning what?

John Dehlin [00:28:36] What is the communist socialist thing Black people are asking for?

Chanel Achenbach [00:28:41] Equality. Equality. Just to say, can you not hurt us just because of our skin? Can you not hurt us because we disagreed with you? Can you not hurt us because me, I'm a passionate person. Ask my husband. My husband. If we get into something and. And we're not seeing eye to eye, or I'm beating him in a game because I'm better, then it's more of a. It's more of like, I can. I can lose gracefully, okay? Not, I can lose loudly. And I can win loudly either way it goes. I'm a passionate, ardent. I'm an ardent person. I'm like, yeah, I just won. I just dominated you. I'm loud not because I'm dangerous, but because it's a culturally thing I learned from my family. Because we've always been told to be quiet and you're not unheard. So I think by default we have energy and we have passion. And we're like, listen to me, I'm talking. And so it's loud. And it scares people who have been taught, what, in the temple? To not even laugh, that laughing is wrong. I'm loud. If I'm at a movie theater and something's funny, I'm loud. If I see something funny, I'm loud. If I'm telling a story about something, I'm loud. I'm just loud and passionate. And to a lot of people, that scares them. I'll be in Smith's with headphones on. I'll be dancing because I found the ramen that my daughter wanted that they stopped selling. And I'm. Yes, that makes me happy. And the person next to me is like. Or I'll go up and say, hey, how you doing? And they're like, I'm fine. I'm fine. And I'm like, hey, life's good. Christmas is coming up. Grinches out. I'm decorating. And they're like, okay. Then they calm down. But at up front, they are terrified. Like, what are you gonna do? I'm like, oh, life is good. Life is good. You have to enjoy it. I'm 50. At any minute I could leave this earth. And right now I'm good. I mean, I had a heart attack on Mother's Day, right? So it's like this year. No, it was like last year or year before. And I'm here, so sorry. I can't live my life making you feel comfortable if you're supposed to Be uncomfortable. If you are a person who is saying racist things, I don't want you to feel comfortable. I want you to be very uncomfortable, and I want you to stop. That is my purpose for talking to you about these things. I am excited about life. And so if I'm talking to somebody, they're like, you're irreverent. You're irreverent. You're irreverent. I'm like, okay, but I'm just talking to you. I don't like that you're making me uncomfortable. The spirit is not here. It's not reverent. And it's like, okay, so that's what I'm dealing with, is people who have been taught that people that look like me are scary are very scary and dangerous and have to be stopped. Shoot first, ask later, my friend.

Systemic Racism and Race in America

John Dehlin [00:31:47] There is. There is one topic I want to bring up in addition to all the ones you have. There's a movie that Margi and I watched a few years ago called 13th.

Chanel Achenbach [00:31:56] Oh, wow.

John Dehlin [00:31:56] On Netflix. Have you. Did you see it? Yeah. So just, you know. Do you want to summarize the movie? Do you want me to.

Chanel Achenbach [00:32:04] You can summarize it. I can tell you what I thought about after you.

John Dehlin [00:32:07] Yeah. So. So on the. On the one hand, we don't want to talk about black people in America, you know, as if they're a monolith or, you know, as if you can make any generalizations about them. And that's all seems totally right and true to me. On the other hand, there's this kind of war on drugs that, you know, basically, if I could just summarize the movie 13th, it's civil rights movement happens. A lot of the Southern states had to make compromises to allow black people to vote in the South. But that made them really nervous and uncomfortable because it's like as soon as we let black people vote in the south, they're going to be taking over our governments and angry and we're going to lose all our power.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:55] Not just uncomfortable. Angry.

John Dehlin [00:32:57] Angry. Yeah. And so the. The movie document documentary, 13th kind of gives the impression that kind of like politicians, especially Southern politicians, but not only Southern politicians, kind of includes with Nixon. And this sounds conspiratorial, but it.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:13] They have recordings.

John Dehlin [00:33:14] It provides recordings. They basically said, how can we make sure the black people don't get too much power in this country? And it's by shifting the. The narrative from let's keep them from having the votes, all the Jim Crow laws to a war on drugs and what we'll do is we'll start really emphasizing as politicians how dangerous drugs are, and we'll get all our police forces out throughout the country and we'll make sure and imprison all the people involved in drugs. And it just so happened that a lot of, you know, from their perspective, whenever they could find a person of color who was selling drugs, they would incarcerate them. And you, you know, the documentary 13 just shows this exponential growth in the incarceration of black men under the guise of enforcing the war on drugs to the point where they were ripping families apart. Because of course, it's going to be people in poverty that are selling the drugs. Now, of course, police care a lot less about who's buying the drugs, and it's usually white, rich, middle or upper class people that are buying the drugs. Somehow they don't get as incarcerated as much or they get good lawyers who get them off. But what it shows is this exponential increase in the incarceration of black men predominantly, and prisons that profit from that, prison systems and prisons that profit from that. And it got to the point where there's literally like, we have more, we have more, a higher percentage of our population in prison than China. Like, we have more prisoners in our prisons than China has, and they've got like 10 times the population we do. Like, I'm, I'm getting these numbers wrong. But, but, but the impression is, is that the drug war was used as an excuse to incarcerate black men and to keep. And to break up black families and to keep black people kind of in their place in lower socioeconomic status kind of positions. And is. It's true. And Today, today in 2022, state after state is decriminalizing marijuana and letting people out of prison that were incarcerated for decades. Well, why were they ever put in prison in the first place? And what does that do to a community? What does it do to a family? What does it do to a community? What does it do to a whole group of people when they're. They're young men are consistently thrown in prison and that the prisons are making a ton of money off of that, you know what I'm saying?

Margi Dehlin [00:35:51] And, and what does it do to the men of color who are young being put in a brutal system like a prison and then released? Like, what happens to them for 20 years being locked away with, you know, violent criminals and, you know, what happens

John Dehlin [00:36:11] to them when they're falsely incarcerated in the first place?

Margi Dehlin [00:36:14] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:36:15] Yeah. I mean, when. And again, another really important documentary for me was O.J. simpson made in America.

Chanel Achenbach [00:36:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:22] Because when, when the O.J. verdict came down, of course, we all had a good sense he was guilty. But then you see black people celebrating. You're like, now that's wrong. But then we didn't understand that they had been living decades or centuries of injustice, and this was just a chance to finally, you know, have a little bit of power in a judicial system that had been stacked against them forever. So I'm kind of monologuing, but, like, we didn't understand this history, you know, until in some cases, relatively recent. And I, I don't know, I just, I wanted to kind of do my part to advocate for some of the things I've learned. See the movie 13th, see the documentary O.J. simpson made in America, because there's a lot that it continues to be done to oppress and disempower communities of color.

Chanel Achenbach [00:37:18] Yeah. I mean, Candace Owens always says the biggest problem in the black community is not being shot by the cops, but the father's not in the home. Well, why aren't they in the home? Like, seriously, lady. And the thing about it is too, is that people don't understand. So they say, well, if people just not commit crimes, they wouldn't get in trouble. So let's, let's, let's be honest here. So if I commit a crime and my friend that is white, commits the same crime, who's going to get more time? Be honest? And this is by this how the system works. And when they say, you know, black people have problem with drugs, do they not understand? Utah that is the statistics I'd like for them to engage me on. So when you talk about statistics. So when I was dating my husband, he can attest to you how many white Mormon women between those ages I mentioned before asked me for my medication, my pain medication, because I've had surgeries and such, and because in their mind, it's prescribed, even though it wasn't prescribed to them. Opiates, they wanted them. So Chanel want to call me at 3 o' clock in the morning? Chanel. See, well, what happened was, see, I ran out and I lost mine and one bottle got stolen from me out of my house. And so they justify their opiate problem because it's a prescripted, it's a prescribed drug. But you black people that do these, these illegal drugs and marijuana, you guys are bad. It's like, honey, this wasn't a prescribed to you. This is illegal. I cannot give you my pain meds.

John Dehlin [00:39:00] Yeah. And these are believing white. These Are bleeding white Mormon women asking for you, for you to break the law?

Chanel Achenbach [00:39:07] Some of us had the same doctor. So it's like, yeah, I'm not giving you anything. Like, that is so bizarre. But everybody else is bad, not them. And it's weird. Have you seen the movie the Hate U Give?

Margi Dehlin [00:39:19] Yeah, yeah, that.

Chanel Achenbach [00:39:22] That resonates so much. Because my son, he's a big black boy, and I told him, he. He gets mad. He's. He's. He's bratty. I love him, but I. I spoiled him. I'll admit that wholeheartedly. Absolutely. And so he doesn't like to be told no. Too often. I like to take away his phone. And he gets mad. He gets mad. And I. Me and the siblings kind of give it. Like, oh, look at him. He's being a little. He's being a little pill. Well, I have to have conversations with him. And I told him, I'm sorry, but you cannot get angry the same way your little friends get angry. So if you're in a group and your beautiful white friend gets angry, they'll probably get a slap on the wrist or pat on the head. Stop being angry, Bob. You get angry, they're going to take you down. You are a big black boy. Do you understand that? And he's like, I said, I know you. I'm your mother. They don't know you. You are already considered a threat by your color. That is the society we live in. And I have to have those conversations with my children. And then the other kids we were with, the one he was laughing, he's like, chanel, I'll be honest with you. He says, I was cussing out the cop, I was smoking weed, and I was drinking in the car. And I told the cop where he can put it. He says, I didn't get in trouble. But I guarantee you, if my son talk like that, he's getting in trouble. That's true.

John Dehlin [00:40:45] Or getting shot.

Chanel Achenbach [00:40:46] Or getting shot. That is the world we live in. Oh, you're just making it about race. Absolutely, I'm making it about race. If you don't get it, you don't have to. I'm no longer trying to convince you of something you're not ready to accept. But that is the reality of what we live in. Even with me, I'm a pretty chill person. Takes a lot to piss me off. But if I'm pissed off because you've wronged me, I'm probably gonna be a little disrespectful. And so people don't like that. They like to be disrespectful to you, but if you match their energy, they don't like that. And I'm seeing that a lot with Mormon white women. If they say mean and nasty things to me and I match that energy, it is crazy, the comments back and forth, and I'm like, okay, this is what you said to me. This is how I responded. And now you've lost it. You've completely lost it and are saying these awful things to me. I thought we were friends. Friends can get upset. Friends can get impatient, but now you're slipping and saying some pretty derogatory things, and that's. They. You can't say something you don't feel even when you're angry. And I'm. I'm thinking about this. This space in my life now after leaving and thinking about what it took to finally walk away, of just listening over and over, every time an issue would come out, this. These conversations would happen, even now. Well, what did you think about the first black woman speaking at General Conference? And I'm like, what am I supposed to feel about that? You think that's a flex? That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:30] That.

Chanel Achenbach [00:42:30] You think I'm supposed to be jumping up for joy for that? First of all, little too late. Sure, it's something. Second of all, she's not echoing the problem. She is echoing what they want her to say. That is not the same as having a black woman speak at General conference and say, hey, I'm a member of. I see challenges and I hope for the best. And why, while I'm here, this is why I'm here, is to help integrate, help improving quality, help improve relations of a problem in a dirty history that we have. And that's why I'm here. That's a different kind of general conference than to just say, look, we got a black person there.

John Dehlin [00:43:11] All is well in Zion.

Chanel Achenbach [00:43:12] No, it's not. It's awful.

John Dehlin [00:43:14] Yeah. So six or seven years ago, I guess, 2016, the masks, the Mormon masks come off or the Mormon hoods go on, and you discover that all these friends that you had loved, who had been a part of your social system, they start showing you racism that you just would have never imagined.

Chanel Achenbach [00:43:37] There's no way.

John Dehlin [00:43:39] And. And again, I think. I think we were talking about this at lunch. It's one thing if it's just your average American, but. But for better, for worse.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:49] Which. That was happening too.

John Dehlin [00:43:51] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:51] Of course, in the broader. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:53] Narrative between Utah and the difference between Mormons and The reason why I keep, you know, people who are believers and who are listening to this are going to be saying, john, why do you got to keep saying believing Mormons? And every time Chanel talks about a friend, why do you keep shoving believing Mormons in there? I'll tell you why. It's because the Mormon church claims to be led by a prophet of God who speaks to God and Jesus. And he speaks for. Not only speaks to God and Jesus, he speaks for God and Jesus. So if that's true, and of course all the Mormons that pay their money and give their time and energy to the church, if they're all committed to the church based on that assumption that our scriptures are the word of God, then clearly we have a higher level of responsibility to be non racist, to be non white supremacist, to be loving and accepting, intolerant and accepting. We have a higher standard than anyone else in the world. We should be Mormons. Believing Mormons. If they're led by, if the church is led by God and Jesus and true prophets, we should be the world's leaders in anti racism and in anti white supremacy. We should lead the earth. And I, I don't know that we do, do we, Chanel? Instead, we lead the Republican Party. Utah is literally one of the top three most read most Republican states. And again, it's not about partisanship, but there's going to be a problem. You know, where are the black people? Which party are they in? They tend to be Democrats. Right. And, and white supremacists tend to be Republicans. So if, if, if in Utah and if Mormons tend to be the most read of all states slash religions, there's, there's something wrong there.

Chanel Achenbach [00:45:49] Yeah,

John Dehlin [00:45:52] I'm ranting, I'm ranting. I'm sorry.

Chanel Achenbach [00:45:53] No, you're fine.

John Dehlin [00:45:54] He's nodding. She says, yes, you're ranting.

Margi Dehlin [00:45:56] It's official.

Chanel Achenbach [00:45:57] I. Can I ask a question to Mormons?

John Dehlin [00:46:01] Yeah.

Chanel Achenbach [00:46:04] I think this is important to feel because I was gambling when I asked this question to somebody, but I was talking to a church leader, it was a bishop, and he was the sweetest thing. And he says, hey, we get it wrong sometimes. I understand. And I said, okay, getting it wrong is different. I said, I'm going to ask you to do something. And he was like, okay. And I said, so I'm going to ask Mormons to do this. I'm going to ask that they close their eyes and just think for a minute. Just close your eyes. Think about your life. Think about how things are. Race is not an issue, Right? So your eyes are closed. You're in sacrament meeting. They just sang a hymn. You're passing sacrament. Everything's good. You feel good. It feels amazing. Now you open your eyes, and everybody in that congregation is black. The kids passing the sacrament. You look up. The bishopric is all black. Everybody around you is black except for you. You say, you don't feel anything. Yes, you do. Because I saw the face of the people I did this to. You can't hide it. I read people like a book. I love playing poker. So when they open their eyes and I say, picture, everybody is black. Relief Society president, the primary president, Elders quorum, Everybody that you now know is black. Still, they're kind of uncomfortable. Then I say, okay, do you have daughters or sons? Oh, I have three daughters. All three of you are white daughters married to black men. I said, that's what I'm talking about. That face right there. And then I say, okay, so now you're going to these parties and all these babies are born. Now they're biracial babies. And now you have in laws that are all black. Their culture, the doctors. Now you're in the city. Now you moved. Now you're in the city. All the doctors are black. All of the grocery store people, like the bankers, are black. Everybody. The. The police are all black. They cannot hide how they feel. I said, now, welcome to my world. That is what I live in. And a person joked, but it's. It's true. They said, you're like a. You're like a raisin in a box of cornflakes. And I'm like, correct. Does it have to be a problem? I wish it wasn't, but it becomes less of a problem with awareness. I have a white husband, so when we go to the store, I can't believe how many times his mouth has dropped from seeing how people interact with me. We were at a Smith's. I was looking at a cell on some salmon, and this man comes up to me and starts asking me about where I'm from, where I'm really from. And I'm just like. I'm consistently having to have conversations. How many times do people go up to my husband and just ask him questions like that? They don't, but he sees them come up to me and ask me questions all the time, or touching me. Could you imagine if somebody went up to one of your children and just started touching them? They touch me all the time as if I'm a pet, as something to be examined. They probably mean well, but that doesn't mean that I'm comfortable. They just come up to me and say, oh, honey, how are you? Start touching me. How so in return, if I just went up to somebody and just started touching them, that wouldn't go well, but that's done to me on a pretty consistent basis.

John Dehlin [00:50:10] These are examples of microaggressions, right?

Chanel Achenbach [00:50:12] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:50:13] Nobody asked me where I'm from, you know, so to speak.

Chanel Achenbach [00:50:16] Right.

John Dehlin [00:50:17] When he comes up and touches my hair.

Chanel Achenbach [00:50:19] Nope.

John Dehlin [00:50:20] Yeah.

Chanel Achenbach [00:50:20] And they're doing it out of curiosity and love. Like, I can tell they don't mean me harm. It doesn't mean it's not harmful. You don't touch a person you don't know because you're trying to be nice. You stand back and say, hey, how you doing today? You make eye contact and you keep going. You don't touch them. You don't start asking them really weird questions about what country they're from. You don't start being loud and calling them different names and say that your President Nelson told you that you can love black people now, as if you needed his permission. When that happened at the Macy's, my kids were just like, they thought it was funny. And I wasn't laughing. My kids were laughing because this lady wouldn't leave me alone. And she was explaining to me that but I just love black people. And President Nelson said we need to love black people. And we're just trying to be more exclusive because you guys are so wonderful. What's wonderful about us? You guys are just so great. Oh my God, you're just so good. You're just a cute little. Felt like they were saying you're a cute little creature. Like, oh, look at you. I'm just like, I'm a grown ass woman. I'm 50 years old and you're touching me and pinching me and I didn't even fight or do anything. I was so like, she's trying, so don't discourage that. But if you encourage that by not telling her to back off, why am I consistently having to figure out how to tell them how to be? That doesn't happen to my girlfriend, but it happens to me.

John Dehlin [00:51:43] Your white girlfriend?

Chanel Achenbach [00:51:43] Yeah, it doesn't happen to my white girlfriend. Oh, and I just wanted to clarify. I did meet a black lady for a short time and that was the thing. She was what they considered a stereotypical black woman. And so they were like, like making comments like that, thinking it was funny. Told you black women are loud. Told you that they're wild and crazy because she Was loud. She was loud. She was over the top. But instead of just saying, hey, how's your friend? Man, that's a crazy black woman. Man, that's a loud, wild. She's just like we said. Why would you say that to me? Why would you say that?

John Dehlin [00:52:25] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:26] So it's exhausting.

Chanel Achenbach [00:52:29] Very much so.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:30] It's exhausting. Can I ask you a question, kind of back in your narrative. Sure. When you were talking about this time with George Floyd, and then kind of what was going on here in Utah with your experiences with people in your Mormon community, what do you remember about that time? Like, for you, do you remember feeling a sense of, like, tremendous grief and loss as you were kind of, I don't know, having this wider experience and a deeply personal experience. Were you angry?

Chanel Achenbach [00:53:08] Were you.

Margi Dehlin [00:53:09] What do you remember feeling during that time?

Chanel Achenbach [00:53:14] Wow. Well, a plethora of feelings and like, a conglomerate of different emotions and experiences. Because I was worried, because I felt an immense amount of guilt for my children that I made this decision for them, to put them in harm's way. That was the. That was really hard for me. That was very, very a low point for me. But then to think, I need to walk away. I am not safe, but where am I going to go? So trying to reach out to the black community was hard because they weren't having it. They were like, you were part of that Mormon church, weren't you? Yes. So you chose white people over your own community. No, that's not how it was. Yeah, but you knew they were racist and you still joined. And I was like, well, it's. That's. They didn't tell me up front anything about that. But then you knew and you stayed. That meant you chose white people over your community because you thought it was better. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. That's not what happened. Like, it's not that simple. And so I couldn't even relate to people outside that. I. I tried and was like, okay, yes, I know that you consider me different because I like different things. What you considered culturally of black people, but so I couldn't relate that way. And they weren't having it. They were like, nah, we good. We. We don't need to talk to you. And then white people are like, I don't care if you think I'm racist. That's your problem, because that's your triggers. And so then I was like, in the middle of this road, trying to cross here, being told, nah, get your ass back over there. And then trying to Cross over here. No, we don't want you because now you're making us feel bad. And so I was just kind of like stuck here and I'm like, I can be by myself. But I now I've put my kids without support because of my decision. They had no support.

Margi Dehlin [00:55:30] None.

Chanel Achenbach [00:55:30] So if mom wasn't available because she was sick and mom's husband's on the road, who do you have? They had nobody. Nobody. Because the, the father's families were not available. And the people we knew were now mad because I was calling them out on racism and now they felt I was attacking their church. So that beautiful grandson, I have his baby shower. Her baby shower, her gender reveal. No support. No. Nobody came, nobody cared. So punishing me because of what I now am talking about is different than hurting a young 18 year old girl who was the sweetest thing because you're mad at her mother.

Margi Dehlin [00:56:20] Right?

Chanel Achenbach [00:56:21] That was hard. Yeah, that was really hard.

Margi Dehlin [00:56:25] Yeah.

Chanel Achenbach [00:56:26] My son, our kids, no support because mom is telling her truth and nobody likes it. That has been like, there's no way there could be a God. There is no way. Because either he is teaching people to be cruel or he can exist. There's no way, if I'm a creator, that I would create children to treat people in such a harmful way that's supposed to know better and do better. No, there's no way. It's impossible.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:09] That's.

Chanel Achenbach [00:57:10] It's not. It's one thing to have a disagreement and a fight. That's normal. Like people do that. But the level of things that were said. No, that's. No, I don't believe it.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:31] Yeah, so I'm kind of hearing that that time. Tremendous, tremendous stress, grief, loss, all the things. And kind of no support anywhere. And not just for you, but your kids too. You were just kind of, kind of alone as a unit.

Chanel Achenbach [00:57:49] Yeah. And they like that. I, I even know some smart remarks and some digs of. That's what you get. You reap what you, you, you reap what you sow. You made a bed, you lay in it. I, I wouldn't, I don't treat people like that. Like if I still forgive you and around you, even though you said racist things or allowed me to, to be around you while people are doing racist things and saying racist things and I still remained your friend. You made remarks about black face and black hair and racist jokes and telling me why you can say the N word. And I am still here to give you a chance to become better and to a fault. I wish I was cold. I wish that I can be formidable and cold, like, not care. I don't know how to not care about people that are doing wrong, people that are being racist and okay with that and justifying why they. They are.

Formally Leaving the Church and Processing the Exit

John Dehlin [00:59:11] So what became your next steps once you experienced this avalanche of Mormon racism in 2016? How did your relationship with the church start to change?

Chanel Achenbach [00:59:25] I started saying things to church leaders like, I don't like this George Floyd, Colin Kaepernick. I started questioning him on these things, like, this is not right. People don't deserve to die just because they're black and loud, or black and criminals and black. And it was just pushback, pushback. Well, if they weren't criminals, they wouldn't get hurt in the discussion. And so I was just like, what in the world? So then I. I got a little nervous and thought, shut up, shut up. Just stop talking. Just shut up. Conform. Just so 2017, I kind of was like, just go back. Say nothing else. They're not going to listen to you. You've already tried to step out. You already tried to talk to other people. Just shut your mouth. So I did. So for a short time, I was like, just conform. Just do what they say. Just smile, just give your talks. Just do. I started teaching. What is it, the Weebles or Weevils or whatever.

John Dehlin [01:00:31] I don't know.

Chanel Achenbach [01:00:32] Weeblos, Weebleos.

John Dehlin [01:00:33] Cub Scouts.

Chanel Achenbach [01:00:33] Cub Scouts had my son in. And I just shut up. I was miserable, but what else was I gonna do? I didn't know anything else. And then I couldn't breathe. I was like, I am miserable. And it was like, either breathe and be on an island by yourself or be on the island with a bunch of people and being suffocated all the time.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:01] Right?

Chanel Achenbach [01:01:02] I finally chose to breathe, and they dropped off. I started being very public about what I thought and what I was.

John Dehlin [01:01:10] At church or just with your friends?

Chanel Achenbach [01:01:12] Both. Just kind of church people, friends. They were not taking it well. They're like, shut up. We don't want to hear it. We don't want to hear it. That's apostate. We don't want to hear it. We don't want to hear it. If you have a problem, then just go away. Then it's like, okay, like, if you're

John Dehlin [01:01:25] criticizing past Mormon prophets for their racism,

Chanel Achenbach [01:01:27] you're criticizing anybody, even us. If you're criticizing us. If you don't like it, you don't have to listen. So you don't have to stop being racist. I just don't have to listen. Okay. Understand. I understand. And so I. It was. It was hard because it was, like, up and down. Like, just. Just like, shut up, Chanel. Just. You dealt with it this long. Why are you complaining now? Like, what do you hope to change? They're not going to listen, so it's kind of stupid to keep trying to move the goalposts. They're not going to come, so. But I wasn't breathing. I was suffocating. And I'm like, I can't be quiet. It doesn't feel right. So I found TikTok, and I wasn't saying anything about Mormon stuff. I wasn't going to because my friends would have had a fit, because that's really public. I noticed TikTok was huge in public,

John Dehlin [01:02:27] so TikTok was right. Before COVID did you stay active in the church up through, right?

Chanel Achenbach [01:02:33] No, no. When I got to TikTok, I wasn't active at all.

John Dehlin [01:02:36] Okay, so you went inactive around 2017. And were people concerned? Did they want you back? Did they try?

Chanel Achenbach [01:02:44] Always trying to get me to come back. Always trying. People come visit, you know, when it was your birthday, they give you a little whisk and say, I want to whisk you a happy birthday. You know?

John Dehlin [01:02:53] A whisk?

Margi Dehlin [01:02:54] A whisk.

Chanel Achenbach [01:02:55] We had four whisks, and I was just like.

John Dehlin [01:02:58] Like to beat eggs or cake batter,

Chanel Achenbach [01:03:01] but I didn't see their face. It was just something you leave on the porch and then go away.

John Dehlin [01:03:05] Mm.

Chanel Achenbach [01:03:05] And then I was getting irritated, and

John Dehlin [01:03:08] so did you ever have, like, a confrontation with the bishop? Like, this church is racist, and it bothers me.

Margi Dehlin [01:03:13] Oh, yes.

Chanel Achenbach [01:03:14] So I talked to a bishop, and I said, I want my name removed. And he said, no, I'm not here to help you ruin your salvation. I am here to help you save your salvation. So I will not help you remove your name. That's not happening. And what is your problems? What are your issues? What are your grievances? So I told him, and he said, well, we don't do that anymore. One of them was.

John Dehlin [01:03:36] I told him, you mean we're not racist anymore?

Chanel Achenbach [01:03:38] That was part of it. And the other thing is, I told him that I had a hard time with. I thought that the church was very sexual and.

John Dehlin [01:03:45] Meaning what?

Chanel Achenbach [01:03:46] Without permission? Well, I told him the incident of, you know, having to tell my personal situations with, you know, in front of all those Migos. Well, we don't do it that way anymore because I was worried about my kids. What if they did something? I don't want my Daughter having to do that, explain her. So that was a concern. You know, she was a young mom, she was 18. And if she wanted to go to church, I didn't want her having to have a talk with these men about her intimacy with her boyfriend. So he says, well, we don't do that anymore. And I was like, okay. So then I started telling him all the other. He goes, you know what, whatever. Because I was telling him, well, I don't want to be around a bunch of people that don't understand black people. I don't know any black people. They don't know any black people. And these conversations I don't like. And then I don't understand these scriptures. Who, what about these scriptures? Do they really mean the things that they say? Is God really a racist? Does he really believe that we are horrible, wicked people that need a skin of blackness to distinguish that why would he let us live then? Like he's got to hate us. He has got to hate us with everything. He has to let a prophet, prophets go years and years and years saying these things about black people. So what about my kids? He hates them too, because we chose this. I said, I don't believe it. I'm having a hard time with the pre existing stuff. Well then your faith is challenged. You're apostasizing. Am I apostasizing or I'm asking questions that doesn't make sense. If you lack wisdom, let a mass of God. I'm asking a braid of knot, which means not to scold. So why are you scolding me for asking questions? You said the mysteries of God will be open to you. I'm asking questions because I am not feeling good. I am confused, I am angry, I am scared to death, I am terrified for my children and you are telling me not to ask questions that doesn't make sense. So yeah, now I'm angry, now I'm pissed off. Now I'm like, nope, I'm not shutting up. So you are the leaders that tell us what to do and say. You have all the answers. You have general conference, you have enzymes and new areas and all this, but you have no answers for me today. I call bullshit. Answer me. Oh man, you're so angry. I said I am very angry. And well, there's a spirit of contention. I'm contentious. Now answer my questions. What is this? You want me to be a good member? I want to be a good member, but you have to answer me. Well, sister. Nope, I'm not. You need to answer me. I deserve an answer. Because your scriptures and God's scriptures and these other scriptures. How many scriptures you want me to show you that says I get to ask? And if you're my church leader and you want to lead the church, you want to lead your whole congregation, you want to tell us what to do in our families, you tell us we supposed to keep the Sabbath day holy, not to watch rated R movies, not to do this and that and drink coffee and tea and stuff. And you can't answer me a question? Nope. You don't get to tell me what to do then. No. And I'm going to talk to everybody. So if you can't answer me, I'm going to ask other members. And if they don't answer me, I'm going to ask other members. And if they don't ask me, I'm going to go to the news. And if they don't answer me, I'm going to go to social media and I'm going to keep talking until somebody answers me. I deserve an answer. And it was just like, oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. And I said, and I want an apology. Racism is wrong. And you teaching that God wanted you to be racist is cruel. And it's not of God. And I want an apology. I'm sorry you feel that way. That's not an apology. So that happened for a while.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:33] That is powerful. That is powerful, though.

Chanel Achenbach [01:07:36] It happened for a good long while. And so, man, she's difficult. You know, I was just considered difficult and angry black woman. And I didn't really. I really didn't care. Because I was at that point thinking, if this is true and I have some answers, I'll stay and I'll shut my mouth. I will conform. I will do everything I'm asked to do with exactness. And I'll go out on a second mission if they need me to. I'll do whatever. But you have to answer my questions. Not to my liking. Just answer them like I told you. When they told me that I was cursed and I needed to prove myself, I said, okay, what do I need to do? I didn't like it at all. But if that's what God said, who was I to argue with God? Well, now I'm like, I don't know if I believe any of that. Actually, I don't believe any of that. So now what? So now you guys keep saying, love God, love your neighbor. I don't know what your definition of love is, but that's not loving. And all those things you're saying, all those Things you're doing is not loving. So I ventured out. My TikTok was just kind of like football and just, like, food stuff, kind of cutesy stuff. And then I went to Ex Mormon. I saw a bunch of ex Mormons, but they weren't having it because it was about race. They were not having it. They were like, we're not touching that either. We just want to make fun of people and wear our garments, but we don't want to talk to you. And I was like, what? You're dancing around in your garments. What are you doing that for? And they're like, well, that's our thing. We don't. We don't want to get involved with you. And I was like, okay. I said, I just have questions. What you think about things. Nope. We'll talk about lgbtq. We'll dance in our garments, but we're not talking about race. No one would touch the race thing. So I made a video and said, hey, I'm not trying to hurt anybody. I mean, nobody harm. I want answers. And this is my experience. These videos, at that time, they weren't three minutes. At that time. It's 59 seconds. So I said, hey, this is how I feel. I'm sorry if this hurts anybody. I love you guys to death, but I have questions. And that was it. And then, you know, a couple people were like, oh, well, what's that about? And it was just very slow. And then I got more of, I can't worry anymore about people's feelings. I have to worry about my feelings and my answers. And so I started just boldly saying my truth and said, this is my truth. If you are hurt by my truth, I hope it puts you on your ass, because this is my truth, and I am not trying to hurt you. But if you're hurt by it, then you're part of the problem. And they weren't liking that at all. And that's the way it went. And that's. I mean, I'm pretty polite. I just kind of giggle. I kind of say, look, I mean, if they're wearing a red shirt, I'm like, dude, you're wearing a red shirt. I don't really know what you want me to unsee, but you got a red shirt on, and you just said you weren't, so let's talk about it. And then they're like, we're not wearing a weird shirt. It's actually not red. It's actually pink. It's like, no, it's red.

John Dehlin [01:10:41] What's your tick, Tock?

Chanel Achenbach [01:10:42] Handle it is BET noir. So it's B E T T E n o I r 4.

John Dehlin [01:10:50] So the number four b e t t n o I r 4.

Chanel Achenbach [01:10:56] Yeah. B e t t e n o I r 4. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:01] Okay. All right, we'll add a link to that. Do you want to say something, Margi?

Margi Dehlin [01:11:05] Oh, I was just going to clarify. So at this point, you. I feel like you said when you started Tick tock, you were no longer attending. Is that right? Okay. Yeah. What did it. How did it feel for you to start actually expressing and talking?

Chanel Achenbach [01:11:26] It was awful.

John Dehlin [01:11:27] Awful.

Chanel Achenbach [01:11:28] It was absolutely awful because I wasn't trying to hurt anybody. I just wanted answers and I was hurt and confused. What do I do now? For 30 something years, I've been a part of this church. I have children. I don't know what to do. I don't know. I don't like reading and pretending anymore. And I had tried to talk to ex Mormons and they were not having it. They're like, wait, you're black? Oh, no. Nope, nope. We're not getting involved in that. And I was like, what do you think about some of the teachings of the church in the. Racism? Did you say racism? Yes. Nope, we're not doing that block. And I was like, oh, But I thought we were the same. We're ex Mormon. That's when I learned race and racism. People do not want to touch that. So we learned, just because you're ex Mormon, you're not the same when it comes to race. Because a lot of ex Mormons don't want to hear it. They don't. They don't know because maybe they're. They have their own issues with racism. I don't know. I'm just saying I thought it was weird. If I didn't want to dance around in my garment, then for the most part, most of them were talking to me and I just thought that was. I was like, okay. I thought we were the same because we were both X and trying to find answers. But okay. And then I don't know how. Alicia. I had found. Alicia found me and we started talking and that was amazing.

John Dehlin [01:13:09] And Alicia Lee. Yeah, she's faith unraveled on TikTok.

Chanel Achenbach [01:13:13] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:13:14] Shout out to Alicia. We love you.

Chanel Achenbach [01:13:15] Oh, my gosh.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:16] She.

Chanel Achenbach [01:13:22] I think she's the first person that truly gave me a voice because she interviewed me and I have never was able to tell my story at all. And she let me tell the truth. She let me. You know, I think my platform was just at a thousand and I Think she was over like 60,000 or something like that. And she just listened. She wasn't comfortable when I was talking about racism and how I just still was in that mindset of pleasing them still. Like, yeah, you're hurtful. And, yeah, you're devastating me. Yeah, this is racist. But I still want to try to have a relationship and maybe I can even come back to church. I don't know. I just know that I, I would like to talk about what I experience and what needs to happen going forward. And she just, she just let me talk. She just let me talk. And then. So from there, I met Spencer, and then Spencer was another person who.

John Dehlin [01:14:30] Spencer Nugent.

Chanel Achenbach [01:14:31] Spencer Nugent, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:14:32] He's another person by Blacksmo.

Chanel Achenbach [01:14:34] Blacksmo.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:14:35] TikTok. We've interviewed him on Mormon stories.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:38] We'll.

Chanel Achenbach [01:14:38] I saw his before. Yeah, he also was another person who had a pretty big platform that just let me talk. He just listened to. He just. And then we did lives together a lot and those, those went really well. We had a pretty good chemistry for, you know, we just, he, he understood. And his, his story is different than mine, you know, him being Jamaican. And. Then from there, I met other black ex Mormons, which shocked me. I didn't know there was any other people but me. And now Spencer, it was like. And then it's like weekly meeting more black ex Mormon. And so now there's even more sad things that members. Members are. They're just not getting it. This is a whole nother subject. But a lot of transracial adoptees are devastated if, if you. So imagine. And I'm not saying anybody is, but just imagine. I'm just trying to explain what that might look like. If you have. Okay, let's say that you have parents that are meat eaters and you're a vegan. You refuse to eat meat, but they tell you you have to, because they do. That's how it is with a lot of members adopting black children is that if they have racist ideologies or white supremacy ideologies, and they're saying they're not racist because they adopted this beautiful black child, but this black child's like, wait, what? I don't want to listen to Candace Owens. And they're like, you need to listen to Candace Owens and you need to be conservative. You need to be. Do you know how harmful that is? These are your parents. They're reaching out to me, and I don't know what to do because I'm like, my friends adopt kids. I, I this. And so now I'm not there for them because I'm like, back up. I. I'm uncomfortable. I don't know what to do. I'm doing to them what other people do to me because I'm uncomfortable and I don't have the answers. I've never adopted anybody. I'm not an adoptee. I don't have the answers for them. But they're coming to me because I'm a black, older, ex Mormon. And I'm like, I don't know what to do. I don't have the answers. I'm just listening to you. I don't know what you want me to do. I'm so. Every time I turn around, the LDS Church is involved in something that's harming people, and they think that what they're doing is helpful. But I asked them, would you like to talk with me and your child? These are my dms. This is what your child is telling me. And I'm trying to help you. And you don't want to hear because it makes you feel bad, but this is your child talking to me. They don't know me, so it's just. It's just a thing of harm. They are harming people, and they don't want to hear it. If I harm somebody and my kids, tell me, mom, this is what you did. I'm like, what? Oh, my gosh. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Can I fix it? Not them. They want to hurt you more. You're telling them, hey, you harm me. They take a bat and keep hitting you over the head. That is. That's not working. If you're harming people instead of worrying about your guilt, where is the empathy? Where is the compassion? Where is the, oh, my gosh, What I did, I'm unaware. I'm sorry. What does that look like? What can I do to stop that? John? I'm sorry I hurt you. What did I do? I did that. That hurt you. I'm sorry. If I do it again, can you please let me know? I may not be aware, and I will do everything I can to make up for it. Or I can say, you know what, John? Shut up. You're being a baby. Stop being a whiner. You know, be a victim if you want to. Okay, John. And now I'm gonna hit you over the head. That is what is happening instead. That's not kind. That's not Christlike at all. In words, sure, but in execution and not being kind members, you can do better. You're not being Kind you can do better.

John Dehlin [01:19:00] So following up on Margi's question, when she asked you about speaking out, you said it felt horrible. But I imagine it. That wasn't the only thing you felt. Because I imagine it felt good to raise your voice.

Chanel Achenbach [01:19:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:19:16] And to start speaking your truth when you had been told to be quiet for so long. True.

Chanel Achenbach [01:19:23] Yeah. I was like, the funny thing is it was like talking to myself. My 18 year old self was talking to my now 40 something year old self was saying, hey, this is what happened. And now that 40 something year old person is listening to the 18 year old tell their story and validating that and listening and saying, okay, I hear you now I'm gonna tell your story and I'm gonna keep telling. And they were like, shut up. If you don't like it, you make it your whole life, your whole personality. And I said, I do now what? Sure, if that's the narrative. You like to shut people up. I won't shut up though. So you want to call me names? You want to say I'm a victim. Okay, I am victimized. Now what? You want to say that I want attention? I do. Now what? Anything else you want to say? It's not going to. It's not going to make me be quiet. You want to call me names or say this? That it doesn't do anything. You don't understand. For the past 30 years, I've already been victimized and beat. You kicking me now doesn't do anything. It's like, honey, you just try to kick me in the butt I've been kicked in, but for 30 years I don't feel that anymore. Like you're hitting a spot that is so numb that. Okay, did you feel good? I mean, you kicked me in the butt. I've been kicked there for 30 years now. What? That does nothing for me. Now you're coming for my kids. Now that's going to make me angry. They did nothing. They are innocent kids brought into something their mother brought them into. Now, don't mess with my kids. I will be polite to you and I will be respectful. But if you come for my kids, I will show everybody my DMs. Just so you know, don't mess with my kids. Other than that, I'll keep all these dumb conversations between me and you. Anything that's said to me in private, I keep it between me and them. Anything that's public is fair game. If you went for me on Facebook, I'mma show everybody because it's public. But don't mess with my kids, I won't honor any kind of request.

John Dehlin [01:21:41] And at some point, at least within the exormy community, did you start to feel embraced and supported?

Chanel Achenbach [01:21:47] Yes, over time, I think, like I said with Alicia, she. I mean, you know who she is. She's amazing.

John Dehlin [01:21:55] And she was recently on our polygamy. I saw her discussions. Yeah.

Chanel Achenbach [01:21:59] And there's another. Oh, my gosh. You also had Lauren. Oh, my gosh. She was another one. I also went on live with her again. She just listened. She's like, yeah, her. And she was like, yeah, I see this. I understand. And I was just like, what? You're gonna let me talk about my experience? Sure, I can talk about my experience. Yeah, I can talk. Okay. Yeah. And. And the funny thing is, I'm going to give a little bit of praise to. There are some active Mormons that said, hey, listening to this, I'm sitting in a very uncomfortable place and I feel guilty as hell. But you're not lying. And I want to do something, so I'm going to listen. And it's hard as hell. Chanel. I don't like hearing it. I really don't, but I know it happens. I don't know what to do. And I want my husband to see it. I want my kids to see it, and we need to talk about this. That's very few, but it's amazing because I'm like, you know, your church leaders are going to get mad. They said, shane, I care more about what God says than that. I know that the church has things to work on, and I think I can make it better if I understand what's happening. That is shocking. Really shocking, because most of the time it's like, die. We hate you. You're evil. Okay,

Speaking Out on TikTok and Finding Community

John Dehlin [01:23:36] So if you had to kind of summarize why you do TikTok, what. What's your end game? What are you hoping to accomplish with TikTok? Are you trying to change the church? Are you trying to educate the church? Are you trying to tear down the church? What are you trying to do?

Chanel Achenbach [01:23:51] Everything but tear it down. Awareness. I want change because I still have children that are active, not active. They are on the book, still Mormon. If they decide to go one day, I will not feel comfortable. If they're hurt, if they're going through this stuff. A lot of members don't know about these teachings. All they know is get baptized, repentance, temple, marriage, that's it. They don't know these things. I think awareness is everything. Awareness.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:21] If.

Chanel Achenbach [01:24:21] If you're not aware of something how will you know? If you, if you're diagnosed with a disease then you have options to know how to manage that disease or cure it. If you don't know about it, you can't really do anything about it. The church on a grand scale is doing it wrong. The members are reacting to what they're told to react to. So they get a little bit of a pass sometimes. With me, the church does not. The 15 they get no pass with me they get no respect, they get no love. I'm calling them out, I'm calling them in and I want an apology. Simple.

John Dehlin [01:24:58] Yeah. So what do you want from the Mormon Church?

Chanel Achenbach [01:25:02] There's no way they can repair the past 30 years. There's nothing they can do about it.

John Dehlin [01:25:07] Or 150 years.

Chanel Achenbach [01:25:09] Yeah, 150 years. And then my past 30 years and then my kids, there's nothing they can do. So what they're going to have to do for me, they're going to have to apologize because they knew what was happening. They, they participated in it. And they keep saying that it's not an issue anymore, yet the effects of it will carry on forever until the they apologize because that alerts the members that something is wrong. And then as they teach anti racism then the members understand what that looks like and that that is wrong. So that's what it's going to take for me. But I'm not stopped talking. I'm going to tell everybody that will listen. This is what happened. So yes, this happened. This is where I'm at. This is what the effects of it is because this happening to me affected this, this, this, this, this. And that's just me. We haven't talked about other black people we haven't talked about. And I, I think we all forget one thing that nobody is talking about. Do you know who else are victims? White members. They are victims. They're being told by their leaders that this stuff is okay, that that anybody that questions is evil and wrong. And they're reacting the best way they know how because they've been taught to. God hasn't come down to say hey guys, yeah I am a racist or hey guys, this is wrong. So they're trusting what's being told to them that's been indoctrinated to them by 15 old white men that have no clue about how to really deal interpersonally with different races and diversity. Pan NAACP doesn't mean shit. That means you gave some black, a black organization some money so they can shut up and not bring bad press. That's not fixing anything. No, it's not fixing anything. They're not members.

John Dehlin [01:27:25] Right. Okay. So you want the church to apologize and teach anti racism.

Chanel Achenbach [01:27:31] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:27:31] Is that right?

Chanel Achenbach [01:27:32] Yes. Okay, so they have to admit. They have to admit what they did, though.

John Dehlin [01:27:38] Admit what they did.

Chanel Achenbach [01:27:40] Apologize. Apologize and then teach anti racism to its members.

John Dehlin [01:27:46] Teach them what is what it means to be a racist. And equality,

Chanel Achenbach [01:27:52] solidarity, all of it. If you truly say everybody's equal, you can't just make a claim and not back it up. You have to do the work.

Reclaiming Identity and Life After Mormonism

John Dehlin [01:28:04] So when you join the church, there were things that the church offered you, things like spirituality, community, morality, a sense of meaning and purpose, some sort of resolution about the afterlife. And as problematic as the church was, it was appealing to you because it made you feel good, and it. It gave you a lot of those things you were needing at the time.

Chanel Achenbach [01:28:33] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:28:34] Now that you've left the church, I imagine you lost a lot of those things that the church was providing. And yet I. I imagine I'm, you know, I'm going to hear you say that you kind of feel like you're better off now. So let's switch. Let's transition now to the part of rebuilding. How have you rebuilt your life to build up and replace some of the, you know, some of the things the church offered that were no longer providing meaning and value to you? How, in what ways are you rebuilding?

Chanel Achenbach [01:29:12] That's a good question. So I talk in metaphors, stories, parables, whatever, to explain what I'm thinking and the best way I can describe where I'm at now and why I feel. People keep asking me certain questions, and I say, I'm at peace. I have never had that. I feel peaceful. And what that is is Golden Corral. So you go to Golden Corral, Checkarama, whatever. You go to a buffet. And before I left the church, it was like I went with a friend, and the friend said, okay, you see all of this food? And I'm like, yes. And they said, okay, so you can have a tomato, you can have some turkey, and you can have some jello and some chocolate pudding. That's it. And I'm like, but there's all this other stuff. No, no, this is what you can have. Not only that's all you can have. If you eat anything else, you're gonna die. You're gonna get really bad diarrhea, and you're gonna suffer. Do not eat anything else. And I'm like, yeah, but it looks good. And I think it. Nope, you can't decide. You don't have enough information to decide for yourself, you're gonna make a bad choice. I know what's best for you. I'm telling you, these bad things are gonna happen, and then it's scary. Okay, you listen to me. I'm not telling you. I am telling you this. If you eat anything else besides those four things, I said, I don't care what that other stuff looks like, you are going to die and you're going to suffer immensely. And now I'm scared, Okay? I won't. I won't, I won't. And so I go there, I eat my pudding, I eat my tomato, and I'm happy because it's sustainable. I mean, it's okay. And then I go there 10 years later, and I go with a different person. And they say, hey, guess what? You can choose anything that you want. Not only will you not die and get diarrhea, you're going to feel really good and you're going to be happy. And not only that, you're going to get more vitamins. If you eat this. This. This is not. And that just tastes good. And I'm like. I'm like, nope. They're like, try it. So if something bad happens, then you'll know that they were right. And if you do try it and it's what I say, then you'll be happy. And I'm like, no, I'm not trying it. So then I try it. And they're not lying. They say, going forward, I can't tell you what to eat. No one tells you what to eat. You decide for yourself what your body needs, and your body will react accordingly to what you need. And so that is my life. I decide. Nobody tells me what to believe. No one tells me how to enjoy life. And nobody tells me what that joy looks like. I know what it looks like. Because I've made the choice to pursue different things I assumed would make me happy. And they do. And one of that is being me. Not everybody likes me. They make that known. Not everybody can deal with me. I'm direct and I say things that I see, even if it's hurtful. I'm not trying to hurt you. But if you punch me in the face and I say, hey, John, I don't like you punching me in the face. And you say, well, I'm gonna punch you in the face again. And I say, john, if you punch me in the face, I'm gonna punch you back. Well, it doesn't feel good. So I match your energy. People don't like that. I'm okay with that. It used to devastate me if someone didn't like me or if somebody misunderstood me. I used to just like be devastated when someone unfollowed me or blocked me. And I was like, I'm so unloved, everybody. Now I'm like, do you want me to help you? Do you want me? Okay, here's the block button. This is what it looks like. It doesn't bother me. If I can be me without being a harmful person and you still like me at the end of the day, then I have a true friend. But if you only like me and tolerate me when I tell you what you want to hear, I go to your church and I give good talks. You're not my friend, you're your own friend. You are trying to get me to stroke your ego to make you feel comfortable and good. In the meantime, I feel like hell. So to answer your question, that is what it looks like for me. And that's why I feel like Michael Jackson, like Michael Jackson was 50, but when you saw me kind of act like a kid because I don't think he was ever able to be a kid. So I'm 18, I joined the church and I'm supposed to do all these adult things that they're telling me to do. But I'm a kid. Not, I didn't go into young women's, I didn't go into any of that. But I'm 18 and now I'm around 40 year old women and I'm supposed to get it. Well, Now I'm a 50 year old woman acting like an 18 year old. I have fun. I like sports, I like to play games and beat my husband and rub it in his face. That's what I like. And I do it often. I like music, I like to wear my, my beats and go into the stores and pat myself on the back because Something that cost 10 bucks, I got it for 10 cents. I like to rub that in their face because sometimes they mark them wrong. Like you wanted this to be $10. Well it's 10 cents and you can't take it back. I want five of them. That is fun for me and that's what I do. That is me. I. If somebody makes my food right, so this kid at Domino's for example. I'll tell you this one last story and I'll be quiet. But I don't like pizza. I, I just think pizza is gross. But when I do, like when I craving pizza, I like a supreme pizza and I like it At Domino's. This kid made my Supreme Pizza wrong. I was hot. I was like, that's it. I went to Domino's, and I was like, who made this pizza? And they're all like, oh, my gosh. And this kid's like, I did. I was like, come here. He's like. And they're all staring like, oh, my gosh. Is she gonna hurt him? He's 17. I said, what kind of pizza is this? And he's like, it's a Supreme. I said, does this look like a Supreme pizza? And he's like, well. I said, spring pizza, because they have a lot of peppers, a lot of onions, lots of olives. I said, what do you see on this pizza? And he's like, well, I. I said, you have three onion slivers on this pizza. That is not a Supreme pizza. And he's like, yeah, okay. Well, what happened? The reason why I made it like this, because I was having a bad night, and I was mad, and I said, okay, but what does it have to do with me? I paid for a pizza. I said, I want to be a Supreme Pizza. You gonna. You gonna redo this? He's like, I'll redo it. So he redoes the pizza, and he goes, you like this? And I said, that's what I'm talking about. That's a Supreme Pizza. You did good. I complimented him. I started having this conversation with him. And my point is, I wouldn't have done that before. I would have just been in there, like, fine, the pizza sucks. Go home and complain about it. Because just in Mormonism, you're taught not to confront anything. You're taught to just suck it up, be miserable, and go home and complain. You can't say anything. No. I told that kid, you messed up my pizza. Fix it. And he's like, okay. And we had this great. Now when my husband's like, guess who's making your pizza? I'm like, oh, he's making my pizza. That means he's gonna make it, right? And I'm excited about that. I get excited and happy about the dumbest things because I'm good. And when I had a heart attack for not having any blockage, that was weird. I have high blood pressure, though, and I wasn't taking my meds. But my point is, I wasn't scared. I was always scared when I've had close calls, when I was really ill and EMS have come, and I was like, God, if you just let me live, I'll do this. I wasn't this time. I wasn't scared. I didn't care. I was like, if this is my time to go, this is my time to go. There's nothing I can do. So what? I wasn't at peace before. It would always scare me. So that is where I'm at. I have hard days because I'm human, but I'm, I'm at peace. I'm. I'm good because I'm me. I am authentic. I swear. Really bad. But if that's the worst thing about me, that's the worst thing about me. But I love people and I would do anything for anyone if I can. Even people that don't get it right. I'm good. Like at the same time, Mormon church is going to have to do some work with me and I will keep advocating and pushing until they do. My 30 something years has a value, maybe even a price, I don't know. But they're going to have to answer for that.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:29] Yeah, well, I hear a lot of like healing and victories in the way you're describing kind of where you are right now, you know, contrasted to kind of where you've been. What would you say some of the harder parts of rebuilding have been for you?

Chanel Achenbach [01:38:50] Insecurities still doubting. I think I'm pretty confident. But there are days where I told you I struggle. I will be in a public place and someone will stop me and say, you are beautiful and I will lose it. I will be like. And I'll just start sobbing because Mormon men and women would say stuff to me like, you know, about your looks or that you. The skin thing was really hard. Just always reminding me directly or indirectly that something was up with my skin. Mostly from the men, but the women did too. But roundabout way that women are just mass Black women are masculine. They have man face and their masculine. So unattractive. Un. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:51] So I kind of hear that you sometimes hear those voices still.

Chanel Achenbach [01:39:55] Yeah, yeah. A lot. Or triggering when I'm being silenced. I don't like it when I'm misunderstood or unheard. That is a really huge trigger for me is. Is trying to be silenced. Like don't talk. I don't want to hear it. That that's a trigger. That's something I'm gonna have to work on. That's gonna take a while. Yeah, it's gonna take a long time.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:26] Yeah. Because you lived that for so long.

Chanel Achenbach [01:40:29] Yeah,

Margi Dehlin [01:40:31] yeah. What's bringing you joy these days? We've talked about some of it off interview but what are some places that I might put it this way? It's like things that are bringing you joy. And also. Are there spaces of safety for you now?

Chanel Achenbach [01:40:54] Yeah, I think so. Back in. In November, I think it was a week before Thanksgiving, I got invited to a party. And it was a ex Mormon party. It was a bunch of people from TikTok that got together. That was the best thing I have ever seen in my life. I cannot tell you enough watching those people interact. This might sound weird, but something I saw that was refreshing and majestic was watching LDS couples who are no longer feeling confined. I could tell that those couples liked each other. That is so different than what I'm used to seeing. They liked each other, the men and the women. There was so much mutual respect and chemistry. I'm like, what the hell? It was like, these people are my age and some a little older. They're dancing, which, you know, and they were laughing loudly that we're not supposed to do. They had some sippy sip, had drinks, and they were happy. They were laughing, they were telling jokes, they were hugging each other. Hey, it's nice to meet you. Oh, my gosh. Good to see you. And they meant it. I can feel it. I. It was. It was so damn cool. It was so cool. The couples, I think they weren't feeling. My interpretation, they weren't feeling confined. They weren't feeling like they were touching each other, but it wasn't sexual. It was like when you first see two people that like each other that are dating, like it's their first month of dating. These couples have been married for 30, 20 years, and they liked each other. They were dressed up for Halloween, and it was cool. And so those spaces, ex. Most ex Mormon spaces of people that get it, that included me and mine, we weren't talking about Mormon stuff. We were just enjoying each other's company. And when I go to Mormon things now, I'm tired, I'm restless, I'm uncomfortable because they're uncomfortable and not them. They're at peace. They were fun. And that's the kind of celestial kingdom I want to go to.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:53] Yeah. Anything else that's bringing you joy lately? We've kind of talked about your cooking and might I say your Christmas trees.

Chanel Achenbach [01:44:03] Oh, my gosh, I love my Christmas trees. So the story with that is that I've always worked. I've always been like 70, 80 hours a week work. I never had time for the holidays. And when I did have holidays, of course they were not fun. They were stressful because I was either in somebody's home that I was uncomfortable, like they had me there, but they didn't really want me there. It was just like, hey, let's just invite her. She's a single mom. But I wasn't able to be myself. Not. I couldn't just relax. I'm uncomfortable. I'm shifting. I'm, like, having small talk. Hi. Hi. How are you? Good, how are you? There's corn. Yeah, I like corn. Then now the conversations at different engagements are, oh, my gosh, haven't had some corn. Corn's great.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:59] This is great.

Chanel Achenbach [01:45:00] Oh, my gosh, you like popcorn. And it's a different type of conversation because we're just being ourselves. I've not been able to be myself. I've been told who to be by many people for so many years. You need to be like this, you need to do this, you need to do that. And now I'm just like, no, I'm gonna go to that buffet and I'm gonna decide what I wanna eat, and I'm gonna enjoy that. And the trees are one of them. It reminds me of holidays that I've now created for me and mine that don't resemble anything that anybody's created to tell me me how to enjoy. So we enjoy Christmas like this. We don't watch football, and we do nothing. You want to watch football and be loud and have fun, and that's why you like 13 Christmas trees. So that's fine.

Margi Dehlin [01:45:49] Yeah.

Chanel Achenbach [01:45:51] And you said something about food. So now I feel I can cook whatever the hell I want, that I don't have to worry that what I'm cooking is too much. And I feel like now I can be me. And it's okay, because even in these spaces, in Mormon spaces, like, when I'd post a new picture of my wild hair because I do platinum blonde, I do black, I do green, I do purple, I change my hair a lot. And so LDS women would be like, wow, I think you look better with natural hair. I don't think I asked you, but thanks. You know, you look better with natural hair. And, you know, your nails are too long. You know, usually prostitutes have really long nails. And I'm like, okay, so I usually have really long nails. It's because I have fat fingers and I want them to look skinnier, so the longer the nails, but that's beside the point. And they'd be like, wow, red is the color of this. I mean, just always judging and telling me, you know, do this, do that. Those are too long. Those are not natural. But I don't want to be natural. Your boobs are Natural. And that's okay. So leave me alone. Like, I was getting annoyed and I was like, I didn't say anything to you about what you had done. So if I want to have blonde hair, platinum blonde hair with a mile long nail, so what? What does that have to do with you though, right? Like, why can't you just like me for me? Besides, what I'm doing with me, I don't care about what I know you're doing. That's your business. I don't care. I like you. But that wasn't for me. It was always critique. Well, maybe you shouldn't be so angry on Facebook and maybe you shouldn't share this. It's just always critiquing on what I need to be. And then I decided I'm gonna be me. And you can decide to stay or not. I won't unfriend you. But if you want to go, then you can go. I'm okay with that.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:45] Mm.

John Dehlin [01:47:49] Couple questions to wrap up. First of all, going back to that. You know, this is a hard question because most people don't ever want to say they regret anything most people want to say somehow. Even though I had a lot of hard things in my life, I'm still glad I went through it. I like where I am now. So no regrets. So I'm going to ask you, and you may have the same answer in the answer. And that's fine. You know, go back to that 17, 18 year old girl. Your parents are saying, don't join that church. And you're. You're thinking about joining. You know, do you regret joining the Mormon Church?

Chanel Achenbach [01:48:31] No, I regret not standing up once I started realizing what it was. That's the regret I have, is not speaking up when I wanted to,

John Dehlin [01:48:44] Which was pretty early on. Is that right? Because I think still in San Antonio, you started learning about the racist teachings and the curses.

Chanel Achenbach [01:48:55] It was literally a month after.

John Dehlin [01:48:57] Yeah.

Chanel Achenbach [01:48:58] And I was.

John Dehlin [01:49:02] Yeah, yeah. Do you regret speaking? Not speaking out?

Chanel Achenbach [01:49:06] Yeah, I regret. Well, not so much earlier because I was still young and it was. But once I really start realizing what it was, I regret not saying, hey, that's not right. That's enough. I regret not calling a lot of. Not calling the church leaders in, not speaking. Once social media started being what it was, I had a platform then I could have said something, and I didn't. And I wish I would have said something earlier.

Reflecting on the Costs and Benefits of Membership

John Dehlin [01:49:42] Okay. And overall, obviously you shared a lot about how the church or church members have helped you and how the church and its teachings and sometimes Its members have hurt you overall. Can you even make the assessment of whether you've been hurt or helped more by your membership in the church?

Chanel Achenbach [01:50:10] Because I'm trying to be polite.

John Dehlin [01:50:13] No, don't do that. Just be honest.

Chanel Achenbach [01:50:14] No, it's awful. It's awful. And I've been hurt more than I've been helped. That's 30 plus years. And the journals I read, it is not good. It really is not good. Is not good. And how do you fix that? So it's like, it's like this 30 year marriage. First year was kind of interesting, but not bad. And you get beat up, but you get some flowers and some candy and then you adjust to that and then you get beat up again. And so then now you've got, hey, listen, listen, listen. You wanted to go to school, let me pay for that. And then something else happens again. And then, well, you did want this kind of car. Where are you going to go? If you go, you're going to lose all this and the kids are going to suffer. So you're like, okay, fine. So you take it again. And that's just what it's like. You keep getting things to say, it's okay that we're hurting you, but we're taking care of this need, right? So you have to take the hurt because it's part of being human. Okay, but I'm gonna beat you up again. But you can take it. And not only that, they do tell you you could take it. Okay? You said you would. You made a promise to God already knows this. You're gonna endure it.

John Dehlin [01:51:44] So you chose this.

Chanel Achenbach [01:51:45] You chose this. I'm gonna kick you, I'm gonna throw something at you, but you can take it. And after you take it, I'm going to give you, you know what. And then the worst thing happens. It's one of the biggest blows ever. The biggest, nastiest, awful year of that whole marriage. But then they give you the one thing you've been wanting. So now you're leaving. You're like, I'm out of here, I'm not dealing with this. And then they give you season tickets to the Dallas Cowboys. You're probably going to shut up and take it. That is, that is a trade off. I don't know if I can get them on my own, which I can, but I don't know how, but they made me believe that they can only provide it for me. So I just got season tickets to Dallas Cowboys. Let it rip. What else you got for me? That's. I'll take it all day long because I know I get to do something I like from you. You provided this for me, so you get to abuse me, that's fine. But I'm gonna go to Dallas game because that day I'm gonna have fun. Even though all this is happening here, that's the equivalent.

John Dehlin [01:52:53] So maybe I'm a tiny bit confused because I just heard you say you've been hurt more than you have been helped.

Chanel Achenbach [01:53:00] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:53:01] You've been harmed more than you've been helped.

Margi Dehlin [01:53:03] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:53:03] But in the previous question, I asked if you regretted joining and you said no.

Chanel Achenbach [01:53:07] No.

John Dehlin [01:53:08] So why don't you regret joining the Mormon Church if it's harmed you more than it's helped you?

Chanel Achenbach [01:53:15] Because I think for me, I don't know any other life, I don't know anything else. I don't regret joining, I regret staying. And I think that's a different thing. The 18 year old joining at that time doesn't regret that. No. After that, after my mission. So after 1995, there's no reason I should have been in that church. After my mission, there's no reason I should have stayed. Dallas Cowboys tickets or not, I shouldn't have stayed at that point. I shouldn't know what to do. And I did try to kind of get out, like try to say, hey, if I leave and everyone else is like, no, screw you, you messed up our friendship. Joining the church, there was a little bit of strain with my family because I had left and they didn't really understand that I didn't know how to relate to them. I was all Mormon in my head. I was preachy, I was indoctrinated, so people weren't feeling it. At least Mormons understood my brain. So make it work. So regret joining? No. Staying? Yes. Oh my gosh. If I could take a pill and go back in time after or during my mission, I would have stopped going. If I did have a genie that said, hey, what do you want to do if you want to go back and not join, I mean not stay and speak up, I would in a heartbeat. If that's really an option, I would do that. I would erase all of that.

John Dehlin [01:55:05] Because by your mission. What?

Chanel Achenbach [01:55:08] Because in my mission I knew for a fact that the church was racist because it wasn't just the members, it was other missionaries and they were not standing up for me.

John Dehlin [01:55:19] So once you knew the church, once

Chanel Achenbach [01:55:22] I knew that I wish I can go back, then I regret staying past that. Past that.

John Dehlin [01:55:28] Got it. Okay. So this may be, I mean, it's going to Be hard to top all the important moments so far because we've had so many important ones. But what I want to do is create a segment for any black person who's considering joining the Mormon Church.

Advice for Black Investigators and Final Reflections

Chanel Achenbach [01:55:49] Oh my.

John Dehlin [01:55:50] And this is going to be labeled. You know, should I join the Mormon Church as a black person? And this is going to be me asking you to communicate. And you take five minutes, take 10. Like I want you to share a message with a black person who's considering joining and saying whatever you've been taught based on your experience. Chanel 30 years in the church. Here's some things you want to make sure they know before they make the decision to join. Take as much time as you want. Should. If a black person is considering joining the Mormon Church, what should they know from you?

Chanel Achenbach [01:56:30] They should know that from what I experienced and from documents from many prophets and church leaders that in addition to the Book of Mormon, that foundation includes white supremacy and, and oppression of black people. There is a belief that black people are less, that they are marked and that they are a certain way. That they are unruly and that they should be hurt because they are unruly and criminally minded. That there's black on black crime. So if there's black on black crime, they don't want that in the church. I think that they should know that people don't look like you, people don't understand you and people aren't going to want to understand you. They're uncomfortable that these. It's still in scriptures too. That's. That's never changed. So there's Moses. No, I think it's Abraham.

John Dehlin [01:57:33] You're saying the curse, the curse of

Chanel Achenbach [01:57:34] Cain doctrine, the curse of Cain doctrine, the mark of Cain, the curse of Cain, which are two different things. Pre existence stuff disavowed. But it's still felt and believed by active Mormons. They still believe that things like blackface is okay. They believe that it's not a big deal, that racism is not a big deal, that it is a choice that you made in a pre existence to

John Dehlin [01:57:59] endure to be being black, to being black.

Chanel Achenbach [01:58:03] And with that comes a lot of painful things. It's just not a safe place for black people to say that we're inclusive, we like black people. How. What is it that you're doing to show that? What solidarity and what equality are you showing? It's not being shown. It's being swept under rugby and put on a shelf because it's uncomfortable. Even ex Mormons have issues with black people. It's just A fact.

John Dehlin [01:58:41] What if the church says we're sending missionaries to Africa all the time. We love black people.

Chanel Achenbach [01:58:45] No you don't. So that's called a PR stunt. That is called, you are sending people to Africa for what? If you went to every country that is predominantly black and you baptize them. What does that have to do with black people in America though? What are you doing? That's called smoke and mirrors. What are you doing with the black people that you have here? So that's like having a bad marriage and not taking care of your marriage, but going out and helping people with their marriages that don't have anything to do with yours. You're like, okay, so John's marriage is good and that person's marriage is good. And you send them tapes and books on how to better their marriage. Why aren't you taking care of your own? There's a reason why you can go baptize as many Africans as you want. Africa is not in the US which the church was founded. Why in the hell wouldn't you want to take care of your base, your home? So you're going to take care of everybody else's home but your own. That doesn't make sense to me. It is not being taken care of. Black members aren't being told it's okay. The problem is, it's that all of the bad that was taught a long time ago has not been untaught. That is the problem. Because if they don't unteach it, those teachings are still and people's hearts and minds. And even though some people might get better, it is still the thought of most people.

John Dehlin [02:00:30] And this is that black people are black because there were less value in the pre existence. So they chose to come to earth to be black knowing that it was a curse that black people are black because Cain killed Abel and God gave him a curse which was black dark skin. And that God wanted all these less valiant spirits from the pre existence put in black bodies as, as. As a result of their less valiance in the pre existence. So black people carry the curse of Cain because of their weakness and weakness in the pre existence. And also Native Americans are also dark and loathsome because God made them dark and loathsome because of their wickedness so that they would be viewed as filthy and unattractive to white people. And you're saying that's all in Mormon

Chanel Achenbach [02:01:23] scripture that has been in throughout the many years in the church. Over 100 and something. I mean they recently had a monument of three black slaves up Nobody I know heard about it. Why wasn't the church promoting that? Why is it that I was a member for 30 years and just last year I finally heard about Green Flake and Jane Manning. Why, why now? Why haven't I ever heard about them?

John Dehlin [02:01:57] Yeah.

Chanel Achenbach [02:01:59] Well, because Jane Manning was. Wasn't she sealed? She was sealed to Joseph Smith as a servant, an internal servant, but not as anything else. And she begged to be sealed for better conditions than just a servant. Yeah, no one's talking about that.

John Dehlin [02:02:20] So the church continues to keep racist teachings in its scripture? Well, it's still in the scriptures and won't apologize.

Chanel Achenbach [02:02:29] They're not changing their name. They just. They just say, we love our black members. Okay, that's a statement. That is not an action. That is not anything that's being implemented to, to show that if I say I bake cake and I never bake a cake, it's a good statement, but my action doesn't prove that. And the thing about it is, is ask questions. I could walk around right now with a microphone and a camera and say, hey, I can go down Temple Square during general conference and say, hey, Bob, how would you feel if your daughter dated a black man? Have you ever asked people questions like that? And then there's nothing wrong with preference. And, and all the excuses come if you ask me, Chanel, how would you feel about your daughter dating a Mexican man, An Asian man, a white man? Okay, whatever she wants. What, what's best for her, it's easy. It's not something I have to think of. But if people can't admit that it's a problem for them and it's a bias, we can't fix it. There's nothing wrong with having bias. There's nothing wrong with having fears and ignorance and cluelessness. It's that if you're incorrigible and you can't be taught and you don't learn from that, that's a problem. And it's a problem because people believe the church. People believe the church leaders and the church leaders have been racist. That's their own doctrine, their own signatures on documents doubling down on racist conditions. That's the church.

John Dehlin [02:04:10] So if you're to summarize to a black investigator your experience with the Mormon Church, it would be what it would

Chanel Achenbach [02:04:17] be if a missionary comes to talk to you and teaches you the discussions, ask them, besides the black people in the priesthood, what is the mark of Cain? What is the curse of Cain? And what is it that black people in the pre existence didn't do what they're supposed to do. On Unvalient. Explain that and ask them, why did it take 150 years? Ask them, what is the church policies now on interracial marriage? Ask them.

John Dehlin [02:04:43] Yeah. And if you, Chanel, were to summarize your experience as a black woman in the Mormon Church, it would be what?

Chanel Achenbach [02:04:50] Hell, Brimstone, misery, Endurance.

Margi Dehlin [02:05:00] Sure.

Chanel Achenbach [02:05:00] But that's the truth.

John Dehlin [02:05:10] I'm so sorry.

Margi Dehlin [02:05:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:05:17] And it seems like you're feeling better now than you maybe have in a long time. I don't know if we're kind of. Kind of wrapping this third part up. How are you? How are you doing now?

Chanel Achenbach [02:05:29] I think it. I think as a default, I'm good because I have children watching and I have to manage this. I can't read my journals, though.

Margi Dehlin [02:05:42] Yeah,

Chanel Achenbach [02:05:45] I tried to. No, I'm not reading that.

John Dehlin [02:05:48] Why?

Chanel Achenbach [02:05:49] They're bad. They. There was a time I lived in Roy in 92.

John Dehlin [02:05:56] Utah. Roy, Utah, huh?

Chanel Achenbach [02:05:59] I think I lasted two months. It was awful. The bishop and the ward, they blatantly ignored me, wouldn't talk to me. And I was reading up on why I was mad at the bishop and what he was saying and what they were doing, and it was not good. And then I started reading. So I have it from 1990 till now. I still have my journals. I won't read them. I think I'll get to the point where I can or I can't read them right now. Right now, I think I'm okay if I read them. I don't think it's good. I really. I don't want to read them.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:41] Yeah. You deserved so much more than what you got.

Chanel Achenbach [02:06:53] I don't disagree.

John Dehlin [02:06:58] Well, Chanel, thank you on behalf of Margi and myself. On behalf of our listeners and viewers, we can't thank you enough for being willing to share your story. As difficult as it's probably been for you to relive it and have to muster the energy to educate us, we know that you're representing a lot of people who have had very hard experiences. And on behalf of all of us, thank you for your courage and your strength and your compassion and kindness and generosity. Generosity.

Margi Dehlin [02:07:36] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:38] Share your story.

Chanel Achenbach [02:07:39] Well, thank you for letting me. I mean, being silenced for so long, it's a little uncomfortable at first to, like, wait, I can talk about this. Okay.

Margi Dehlin [02:07:51] Yeah. Well, we all benefit from hearing your story. Thank you for sharing it with us. Yeah, let's give Chanel a massage. Let's give Chanel some. Little something. Can I just say a little something? For this. This intense, really exerting experience.

John Dehlin [02:08:17] So thank you.

Margi Dehlin [02:08:18] We honor you.

Chanel Achenbach [02:08:19] You're welcome.

John Dehlin [02:08:20] And if people want to support you, do you like, if people want to hire you as a cook, do you do that type of work? Are you too busy?

Chanel Achenbach [02:08:29] You know, I've been doing it, and I just been kind of like, you know, it's a mostly Mormon state, so I know they're mad at me for speaking up, so I haven't really promoted anything. But I do like when people ask, I will take care of it. You know, for Christmases, I did lasagnas, and then I did, you know, the Creole. I don't know why, but they just like the Cajun food, which is funny because it's kind of spicy.

John Dehlin [02:08:56] You do Cajun cooking?

Chanel Achenbach [02:08:58] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:08:58] Catering, basically.

Chanel Achenbach [02:09:00] That.

Margi Dehlin [02:09:00] That's kind of part of the joy, right?

Chanel Achenbach [02:09:03] Yes. I love doing that, because people could

John Dehlin [02:09:06] argue if they wanted to.

Chanel Achenbach [02:09:07] Sure.

John Dehlin [02:09:07] To do some Cajun food.

Margi Dehlin [02:09:09] Yeah. That's such a great idea.

Chanel Achenbach [02:09:10] Definitely. Creole, Cajun gumbo, all the good stuff.

John Dehlin [02:09:12] How do people reach you if they want to? They can.

Chanel Achenbach [02:09:15] They can reach me on TikTok. They can reach me on Facebook, Instagram. I have all of my. I think. I think they all are. Bet Noir 4. I think I changed everything to just kind of be more uniformed.

John Dehlin [02:09:28] E T T E N O I R4. Number four.

Margi Dehlin [02:09:33] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:09:33] Right. Okay. So they can direct message you.

Chanel Achenbach [02:09:36] Yeah, they can direct message me.

John Dehlin [02:09:37] To hire you or.

Margi Dehlin [02:09:38] Sure.

John Dehlin [02:09:40] To. To cook for them.

Margi Dehlin [02:09:41] Sure.

John Dehlin [02:09:42] Love it. All right. Any other way we can support you?

Closing Thoughts and Farewell

Margi Dehlin [02:09:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:09:46] Follow you on TikTok and all the social medias.

Chanel Achenbach [02:09:49] That works, too. And then ask me questions like, they don't have to be easy questions. We don't always have to have easy conversations. But you can ask me. I'll be honest, you know, and you can be honest with me. You. I will give you room for mistakes if you're willing to grow. If you got it wrong, but you're like, hey, I got it wrong. I don't know what to do now. I'm supportive of that. I don't care who you are. I don't care if you're active. Not active. I don't care who you are. I really don't. I mean, my husband will tell you that I will open up dialogue for anybody. I will match your energy. Sometimes, though, most of the time, I'll just like. If you're being nasty, I'll just be like, whatever, and I'll give you room. Sometimes I won't. I'm human, and sometimes I'll match it. But for the most part, you can ask a lot of Mormons on TikTok. I'm pretty fair. I'm a fair person. I want to help invoke change because I think everybody has an opportunity and a chance to have good spaces and. But we have to actively participate on what that looks like to achieve the safe spaces for everybody. Everybody can be in a safe space. 50 things can be true at once. But we have to do it. We have to work at it. We have to listen.

Margi Dehlin [02:10:56] Beautiful. Yeah. May we all send Chanel support and love?

John Dehlin [02:11:03] Absolutely.

Margi Dehlin [02:11:04] Yeah. Send a little support and love Chanel's way. Can we?

John Dehlin [02:11:09] And if we can't control the Mormon Church, let's make the ex Mormon community supportive and affirming.

Margi Dehlin [02:11:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:11:14] A bit healthier, you know, Less racist.

Chanel Achenbach [02:11:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:11:18] More.

Margi Dehlin [02:11:19] Yeah, please.

John Dehlin [02:11:21] Right?

Margi Dehlin [02:11:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:11:22] Yeah. All right, well, thank you, Chanel Achenbach.

Chanel Achenbach [02:11:27] You're welcome.

John Dehlin [02:11:28] Yeah. Please stay in touch.

Chanel Achenbach [02:11:29] All right, I will.

John Dehlin [02:11:30] Good luck.

Chanel Achenbach [02:11:31] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:11:31] And if we can ever return the favor, please let us know.

Chanel Achenbach [02:11:35] We'll do.

Margi Dehlin [02:11:35] That's right.

John Dehlin [02:11:37] All right. And Margi, thanks for joining me today. It's always great to have you.

Margi Dehlin [02:11:40] My pleasure.

John Dehlin [02:11:41] Shotgun.

Margi Dehlin [02:11:42] Thanks.

John Dehlin [02:11:43] All right. Thanks, everyone. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. Follow Chanel. Support Chanel and share this episode with as many people as you can. If you. If you can, please subscribe to her channels. And also if you want to, we're trying to reach a hundred thousand YouTube subscribers as soon as we can. So Please subscribe on YouTube. If you watch or view us or listen to us on YouTube, that would be really great. And also, we just thank all our donors who make Mormon stories possible. We're reaching the end of the year, so have Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year or a Festivus or whatever it is you celebrate. Be kind to each other. Be good to each other. Let's listen with empathy and learn to love each other more and more each day. Become more tolerant and more affirming. And we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care, everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.