Introduction and Welcome

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is December 28, 2022. We're live streaming right now. And I am just so amazingly excited to have with us today Mark Schultz.

John Dehlin [00:00:17] It's not every day that an Olympic gold medalist and world champion reaches out to you to say, hey, can I, should we do a Mormon Stories podcast episode? And maybe I invited Mark. But that's not the point. If you don't know about, you really should. Mark was a three time NCAA wrestling championship at, I believe the University of Oklahoma. He won an Olympic gold medal in wrestling in 1984. In 1985 and 87, I believe he was a world champion wrestler.

John Dehlin [00:00:50] I, I think it he was in the Guinness Book of World Records for the most world or Olympic titles by a US Wrestler. He can correct me if I've got that wrong. He, his, he has a New York Times best selling memoir called Foxcatcher, the True Story of My Brother's Murder, John Dupont's Madness and the Quest for Olympic Gold, which was published in 2014.

John Dehlin [00:01:15] He actually had a movie made about him called Foxcatcher, which he's not a big fan of, but it's starring Steve Carell, Channing Tatum and Mark Ruffalo. Like that's kind of a big deal. I never saw that movie. But, but what I did see was the 30 by 30, 30 for 30 ESPN documentary called the Prince of Pennsylvania, which wasn't, you know, totally about Mark, but it does talk about Mark in that documentary. But then also he, he fought in A, in UFC 9 Ultimate Fighting Championship 9. I think it was in Detroit, but he actually won. So I mean, I think he was the first Olympic gold medalist wrestler to compete in a UFC event and win it.

John Dehlin [00:02:01] But that whole experience is covered this month in a really cool 30 minute documentary called Wrestling Demons, Mark Schultz's Ultimate Victory on, And it's on UFC FlightPass.com and I really enjoyed it. And, and then also he's got his own business called Mark Schultz Grappling, where he teaches self defense in Medford, Oregon. And then he's also a public speaker, you know, where corporate, you know, corporate folks and others invite him on to speak. So I mean, it would be hard to find a more interesting person with more cool experiences to interview on Mormon Stories podcast. But what does this have to do with Mormonism? Well, it turns out that Mark Schultz joined the Mormon Church in 1991 after he became an assistant coach, wrestling coach at Brigham Young University.

John Dehlin [00:02:54] He went on to be a head coach, I believe, of wrestling for byu. And he was a head coach for them up until, I think around, you know, 2000 or so. Again, his brother was killed by, by multi millionaire John dupont. And you know, we're just, but, but, but Mark, just a few months ago, as I understand it, lost his testimony in Mormonism. So basically he was a, you know, John de Lynn hating orthodox Mormon for many, many years, maybe a couple decades. And then just recently, he started studying Doctrine and Covenants 132, learned about Joseph Smith's polygamy, and, and, you know, resigned from the Mormon Church. Now, I probably got all sorts of details wrong, but without any further ado, Mark Schultz, welcome to Mormon Stories Podcast.

Mark Schultz [00:03:49] You didn't get anything wrong.

John Dehlin [00:03:51] Oh, wow. Okay. I lucked out.

Mark Schultz [00:03:53] That was great.

John Dehlin [00:03:55] Well, thanks for joining us, Mark. Yeah, so I just really want to tell your Mormon story, but your story begins earlier than that. So I guess before we begin, is there anything you want to say, kind of set your intentions? Some people just basically say that if you tell your story, Mormon Stories Podcast, you must hate the church and want to destroy it and, you know, hate everything about Mormonism. Is there anything you want to start out with, just to kind of say what your intentions are for telling your story?

Mark Schultz [00:04:27] Yeah, I don't, I don't want to bash any, anybody in the church. I have a lot of Mormon friends. I'm still, you know, best friends with my, with the head coach that was the head coach when I was, that hired me at byu.

Mark Schultz [00:04:47] And I, I love my wrestlers and I love the people of the Mormon people. I think they're a great group of people. I just, I, I, I just did the research. I found out how the church and the religion started, and I, I, I don't, I don't believe it. And I, I, and I took my name off the records and, but I, I, I actually do believe in God. I believe that I was led to BYU for a purpose.

Mark Schultz [00:05:29] And some of that purpose can be seen in that documentary that was just released four days ago called Wrestling Demons. It's on ufc Fight Pass. And I, I don't believe that that story would have come true had I not gone to BYU and met the people that I did.

Mark Schultz [00:05:56] And they're great people. I met Pedro Sour, I met Dave Beneteau. I met Ben Ojai, Alan Albright Hickson, Gracie Chael Sonnen. And none of that would have happened without byu. But I can't believe in a religion if it's fiction.

Mark Schultz [00:06:26] And now I, and I, I don't want to, I don't wanna, I don't wanna. You know, there's some people I think that are better off living in a fantasy world where they, you know, they come from like, really traumatic backgrounds or broken homes or something. And you know, they, they, they join the church and, or they've been raised in the church for years.

Mark Schultz [00:06:55] They have all their kids are members, and to leave the church would be so traumatizing. I think there's just some people that are better off in the church. You know, me, I'm the only member of my family. I, I, and, and I think the reason why it was so easy for me to leave was because I never really, I, I, I, I consumed my religion like I consume everything in moderation.

John Dehlin [00:07:30] So I love it. Well, well, Mark, let's, let's follow your story. And you know, you obviously converted to the church as an adult, but I do want to talk a little bit about your upbringing, if that's okay. And, and let's begin with the fact that you're part Jewish. What can you tell us about your, your Jewish heritage and if you had any religious upbringing at all, let's start there.

Mark Schultz's Background and Upbringing

Mark Schultz [00:07:57] I did not have any religious upbringing at all. And my father is 100% Ashkenazi Jew from Belarus. And the, my mother is from Western Europe and she didn't bring, bring me or my brother up in any religion at all. I didn't know whether there was a God or not. But in 1978, a miracle occurred in my life, a bona fide miracle, and I started wrestling in 1976.

John Dehlin [00:08:41] Wait, Mark, Mark, can I ask you, can I ask you a quick question?

Mark Schultz [00:08:44] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:08:44] You ever talk so your Dad's a full 100 Ashkenazi Jew? Did your dad ever tell you why he didn't raise you Jewish? Did you ever have that conversation with your dad?

Mark Schultz [00:09:01] That's a good question. I, I've never asked him that.

John Dehlin [00:09:08] Okay.

Mark Schultz [00:09:08] I, I, but I'm gonna ask him next time I see him, did he,

John Dehlin [00:09:15] was he born, and you may have already said this, was he born in the United States?

Mark Schultz [00:09:19] Yes, he, he was bar mitzvahed when he was 13.

John Dehlin [00:09:23] And okay, so he was raised Jewish, but something, but something made it so he didn't, he didn't raise you and your, your brother Jewish?

Mark Schultz [00:09:34] Yeah, he didn't get along with his father, who was also hardcore Jewish and so was his mother and everybody going back to Hungary and Belarus, Russia and where. And yeah, he, I think that's the reason why he didn't Raise us that way because he felt like he was kind of forced into it, and I think he screwed up at his own bar mitzvah or something. He couldn't. Forgot the words or something, and I think turned him off. Yeah. Oh, Echo.

John Dehlin [00:10:12] Oh, Let me fix that. Sorry about that. Okay. Okay. So. So, yeah, I'll be interested to follow up with you to learn why you're. If there's any more to that story

Mark Schultz [00:10:28] about your dad, I might join the Jewish religion.

John Dehlin [00:10:32] You might. You might now?

Mark Schultz [00:10:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:34] Okay, well, we'll get there. We'll get there in the timeline. So you were. So you were raised.

Mark Schultz [00:10:40] I'm already half right.

John Dehlin [00:10:42] What's that?

Mark Schultz [00:10:43] I'm already halfway there.

John Dehlin [00:10:45] Yes. Yeah.

Mark Schultz [00:10:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:47] Okay. So. So you were raised. I. I guess mostly in Oregon, is that right?

Mark Schultz [00:10:53] No, I was raised mostly in Menlo park and Palo Alto, California.

John Dehlin [00:10:58] So, like, in the shadow of Stanford.

Mark Schultz [00:11:00] Stanford, yes. Stanford. My. My grandparents were both Stanford professors.

John Dehlin [00:11:05] Whoa.

Mark Schultz [00:11:05] My grand. And my grandfather was a professor of ichthyology. My grandmother was a professor of medicine. They were both doctors.

John Dehlin [00:11:13] Now, was that on your dad's side?

Mark Schultz [00:11:16] No, that's my mom's side.

John Dehlin [00:11:18] Okay.

Mark Schultz [00:11:18] My dad's side lived back in New York with the rest of the Jews. And that's. He came all the way out here, I think, to get away from his dad because he didn't get along with him. That's. He met my mom at Stanford. They both went to Stanford. And so. Yeah, and so I. I coached at Stanford, too. And so we lived right around Stanford. That's where I grew up.

John Dehlin [00:11:48] And so did your mom have any religious upbringing?

Mark Schultz [00:11:51] No.

John Dehlin [00:11:52] Okay. Okay. Okay.

Mark Schultz [00:11:56] My grandfather was a hardcore scientist evolutionist. He had pictures of Darwin in his library, and I don't know if they even believed in God.

John Dehlin [00:12:08] Okay, so your parents were kind of secular, science loving people, basically?

Mark Schultz [00:12:14] Yeah, I think so. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:12:17] Okay.

Mark Schultz [00:12:18] My mother and father were both in the entertainment industry. My dad was a drama professor, and he had his improvisational commit. Comedy theater. He plays the piano. He was a screenwriter. Director. He's an actor. My mother was a costume designer for Oregon Shakespearean Festival, and I was a child actor when I was a kid for Oregon Shakespeare Festival.

John Dehlin [00:12:44] Oh, cool.

Mark Schultz [00:12:45] Okay. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:47] Okay.

Mark Schultz [00:12:48] So funny.

John Dehlin [00:12:50] That's why you're so funny and entertaining.

Mark Schultz [00:12:54] I love it. How. How can. Pete, can I cuss on your show? Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:01] Yeah. Well, you. We just want you to be authentic, so do whatever feels.

Mark Schultz [00:13:04] Oh, man. Okay, good.

From Gymnastics to Wrestling

John Dehlin [00:13:08] Mark, so you were a gymnast before you were a wrestler. Do you want to talk about that?

Mark Schultz [00:13:13] Yeah. I was the Northern California all around champion for my age, 15 and 16 year old when I was a sophomore in high school and I also won the high school league championship and they wouldn't give me my medals because I was too young, wasn't it? Anyway, that's what I did before I switched to wrestling.

John Dehlin [00:13:40] Okay. And that's, I mean that's, that's a bit of a different, different kind of sport. Right. Instead of just being a solo competitor, you're, you're basically competing against, against others. That's quite a switch. Why don't you tell the story about what made you switch to wrestling?

Mark Schultz [00:13:57] Well, I was a really good athlete and I knew that if I got into gymnastics that no matter what happened after that, if I switched to another sport, I was going to be able to pick that sport up pretty good. Because you look at gymnast gymnasts, it doesn't take a brain surgeon to see that they're the greatest technicians athletically on earth. They can do anything. You can do break dancing, they can do parkour better than break dancers and parkour guys. And they are the best when it comes to technique, athletic technique. However, they don't have the conditioning that it takes to win in wrestling, which is what wins in wrestling.

Mark Schultz [00:14:43] Conditioning. And so I was, I, I, I, I, I was my, my brother just, I just happened to be born into the same family as the greatest high school wrestler in history, Dave Schultz. And I had no power over him. Not none. I mean, it's, if he wanted to watch the channel, we were watching that channel.

Mark Schultz [00:15:19] And so he came up to I, I after I. Gymnastics gave me great athletic ability. I was doing two and a half twisting one and a half backs off a three meter board. But it wasn't giving me the confidence I knew I needed to be happy with myself. I didn't know how to defend myself and I didn't really know. Nobody in America really knew what the best martial art was. Everybody was just kind of grasping at straws, reading Black Belt magazine, going to watch Bruce Lee movies, you know, and here we're watching Bruce Lee and he's kicking the crap out of 20 guys at once.

Mark Schultz [00:16:01] And I was like, God, if I learned what he knows, I can at least beat one guy, my brother Dave. So I quit gymnastics and I started taking this Chuck Norris style karate, it's called Tang Soo Do. And I took it for about four months.

Mark Schultz [00:16:20] And my brother came up to visit me in Oregon for my birthday, my 16th birthday. And he said something to me really disrespectful. I don't even know what it was. But I thought, okay, I'm going to show you who the real boss of this family is. With my 4 months tang soo Doe training, we went out in the front yard and I took a swing at him and he double legged me to the ground, got the mount and punched my face into hamburger.

Mark Schultz [00:16:57] And I was pretty embarrassed and I slept in the car and I just so embarrassed. And then it occurred to me if I could just beat up everybody on earth, I could be happy with myself, live with myself.

Mark Schultz [00:17:19] And so after that fight with my brother, that's what got me into tanks, you know. But after that fight with my brother, I was like, screw tanks though. I'm going out for the wrestling team. So the next day I signed up for the wrestling team. And I was living in Oregon at the time.

Mark Schultz [00:17:36] And I started as a 130 pound junior and I wasn't very successful at all. I was losing record. I was 4 and 6 my first year. And then the coach kicked me off the team because I wasn't winning enough in conference competition.

Mark Schultz [00:17:55] So I went and complained to the principal and the principal told the coach, look, you've created this challenge match system. Mark has won and earned his spot under the system you created. And then you kick him off the team because he's not good enough, that's not fair. And you got to put him back on the team. So he did. But because I went to the principal and complained, it destroyed the relationship between me and the coach and I had to leave. And that's when I transferred back to Palo Alto.

Mark Schultz [00:18:30] And over that summer I grew 30 pounds and I started wrestling at 154 pounds the next year and I went the entire year, the entire regular season. Our team went to three tournaments that year. Now the only tournament I've ever been in was my first year at Ashland High School. I went to a four man tournament and I took second. And then I went to Palo Alto and I out of the three tournaments I broke my toe and missed the first tournament. Then I went to the Alice out tournament and I got beat. My first match and I was eliminated.

Mark Schultz [00:19:18] And then my last tournament was the Monte Vista Invitational and I took third. It was my only experience in wrestling. Then a miracle. At the end of the year I won. At the, at the end of the regular season they have the state qualifying championships and it goes league, region, section, state.

Mark Schultz [00:19:47] I won the league which was nine schools. Then I won the section, I mean this the region which was 20 schools. Then I won the Central coast section which was 90 schools. And I beat the defending Central Coast Section champion, Joe Guillory in the finals. And I was named the outstanding wrestler.

Mark Schultz [00:20:11] And then at State, Joe Guillory gets beat right away. And I'm like, man, these guys at State are the toughest guys. But I. I had studied this Eastern Indian philosopher named Jidu Krishnamurti. Have you ever heard of him?

John Dehlin [00:20:28] No, never heard of him.

Mark Schultz [00:20:30] Oh, this guy will completely. He changed my life. And I. And I. And I was just using his philosophy, I guess you could call it, to keep my head about me. And I just took every. I lived in the present. I took everything one match at a time. And I won my first match by one point against some guy that was fifth in his section. My second match was against the guy that was ranked to win, seated to win. And we. I got. I was losing by a point with 10 seconds left, and I got an escape to go into overtime. And then I caught him in a couple inning combinations in overtime, and I won.

Mark Schultz [00:21:15] And that put me in the semifinals. And that guy took me down, rode me the whole first period. Second period, I catch him with this side roll and put him on his back and hold him there. And he's so exhausted, he can't even wrestle anymore after that. And now I'm in the finals, and the guy takes me down right away. I escape after about a minute, he takes me down again right away. I escape at the end of the round. Now it's four to two. Second period, I reverse side roll him for two, and now it's four. Four. Third period, all he's got to do is get an escape, and he's the state champion.

Early Wrestling Career and College Years

Mark Schultz [00:21:55] And he stands up with about a minute left, and he breaks my lock. And I reached down and grabbed on his leg, and I didn't know what to do, but I knew if I let go, he was gonna win. So I held on. And when my cardio recovered, I did something I had never done before. I did a backsuit play with a single leg, and miracle upon miracles, he landed on his back and I slapped in a half nelson and cradled him for three. And I won the state. After 16 months of wrestling, I was the California state champion.

Mark Schultz [00:22:30] And that's a very far cry from my brother who had this incredible senior year. I mean, you would. You can't. You couldn't find two more opposite types of California state champions if you tried. And we're brothers. I mean, he won the. He. He won the Great Plains was an open tournament when he was a senior in high school. He took second in Russia. He took, he won the national, the US Open while he was in high school. He pinned his way through the State and won 12 to one of the finals at the weight above his normal weight his senior year. I mean, he had the greatest senior year in high school and I had what I thought was the most miraculous senior year. And that actually was the, the, the catalyst, the catalyst theory for why I believe in believing God.

John Dehlin [00:23:26] Well, wait, so what, what made you believe in. What about that made you start believing in God?

Mark Schultz [00:23:31] It was a miracle. I won the state after 16 months of wrestling. I was state champion. Now I was going to go to college and I was going to get a full ride. It changed my whole life.

John Dehlin [00:23:44] And what was it that made you attribute that success to God?

Mark Schultz [00:23:52] I don't know. I just seemed like it was impossible and it happened anyway. It's a miracle.

John Dehlin [00:24:01] Yeah, that does sound impossible. I agree with you. And as I just kind of didn't know a lot about your background, I just would have thought, well, you probably had a dad who was really into wrestling and he probably raised you and your brother to be wrestling all as you're growing up. And then you probably wrestled with your brother a lot and that's why you were both champions, because you were raised by a dad who was into wrestling and you guys supported each other in your careers. And it sounds like that's nothing like what happened.

Mark Schultz [00:24:31] That's not even close. I never wrestled with my brother. One time, from the time I started to the time I won the state, and then he, because he's off at Oklahoma State wrestling. His freshman year, he went 35 and 1. His freshman year he took third in the NCAA. His freshman year, he's named freshman of the year and then he comes back from Oklahoma State and now I'm the same weight as him and I'm the state champion. And he'd go, come on, let's go work out. And I'd be like, nah, if I ever said no, I don't feel like it or something, he'd say in his high pitched effeminate voice, you, you know, and I was like, okay, let's go, you're gonna die.

Mark Schultz [00:25:13] And then we go, and he just kill me like 30 to nothing, like every day all summer long. And I was like, why is he so much better than me? I'm, I'm, I'm built better than him. We're the same weight class. What is he doing that I'm not doing? And then at the end of the year, I started to change my tactics. And I was like, you know, he's taking advantage of my shots. Every time I try something, he counters me and scores. So I'm not even going to try any offensive techniques, and I'm just going to block his offensive techniques. And so I did.

Mark Schultz [00:25:50] Every time he tried something, I broke his lock. I back up. I became this incredible staller, and he couldn't score on me. And if I could keep him from scoring on me all practice, I knew I could keep anybody in the world from scoring on me. It helped my confidence a lot.

John Dehlin [00:26:10] But that wasn't until college. Now, do I have it right that he went to Oklahoma State, but you went to University of Oklahoma? You went to different universities?

Mark Schultz [00:26:19] No, he went to Oklahoma State his freshman year. I. After I won the state, I went to ucla, and he transferred from Oklahoma State to UCLA to be with me, and then we both transferred to the University of Oklahoma.

John Dehlin [00:26:35] Got it. Got it. Okay. Okay. All right. Well, that really is miraculous that you would transfer from being an. A champion gymnast to wrestling and then in such a short amount of time, win a state championship and go on to have an NCAA successful NCAA career. That's amazing. Um, so. So once you started believing in God after winning that high school state championship, did you start going to church? Were you ever religious or. Or not?

Mark Schultz [00:27:05] No, not at all. I just started believing God. I didn't know. I didn't know in what form. I didn't know. You know what? I. I wasn't imagining that he looked like a person. It was just. It was such a. It was. And. And let me tell you, I have had so many miracles in my life. It's. It's impossible for me to deny the existence of God. I don't. It just. You got to be me to know what I mean. But that's my. That. That's. That's true.

John Dehlin [00:27:49] Yeah. Well, I know that's. That your faith is an important part, so I'm glad you're sharing it. So you have this amazing NCAA career as well, and ultimately you end up competing in the Olympics. Do you want to take us? Take us for how you get from University of Oklahoma to the Olympics.

Road to the 1984 Olympics

Mark Schultz [00:28:11] Yeah. After we graduated from Oklahoma, we took jobs as assistant coaches at Stanford, and then we tried out for the Olympic team, and we both made it, and we both won, and we became the first brothers in history to win the same Olympics.

John Dehlin [00:28:34] And what. What was that. What was that like? Well, first of all, do you feel like you became close to your brother during those. Those years? You start you're at the same university, I guess you both go to Stanford. Did you guys become close? Were you friends? You know, what was that like?

Mark Schultz [00:28:54] Yeah, we were roommates after my freshman year in college, me and him became roommates at Oklahoma until his senior year when he got married and moved out of the dorms, and I stayed in the dorms, and we were as close as you can be. I mean, we're training partners, you know.

John Dehlin [00:29:14] Yeah.

Mark Schultz [00:29:15] And we. We were around the same size, so it was. It was very convenient to have a brother that you could train with and, you know, you know, iron sharpens iron, you know, and he was the best training partner I could have possibly asked for. I mean, a lot of people consider Dave the greatest technician in U.S. history. And he really did change the whole paradigm of making wrestling a much more technical sport than it used to be. It used to be just about parent conditioning and just matches were longer. And it was the. You could, you could. A guy that was in great condition could beat somebody who wasn't, regardless of how good their technique was. So Dave really changed the whole paradigm of the sport, and I didn't.

John Dehlin [00:30:18] Well, you did. You did your own stuff. And did you both compete kind of in different weight classes in the NCAA and in the Olympics?

Mark Schultz [00:30:30] Yes, yes. He was always one weight class below me.

John Dehlin [00:30:35] Okay, so you caught up and. And became kind of larger in size.

Mark Schultz [00:30:39] Yes. I ate my way to dominance. That's kind of true, though. When I hit puberty, I knew, you know, I better. I see the good thing about me was I was a gymnast and I knew how to do all these athletic movements, and I knew that if I could move quick like a small guy, but I was bigger, I'd have a huge advantage. So when I hit puberty, I didn't do anything to cut weight. I. I grew as much. I let my body grow as much as I could.

John Dehlin [00:31:18] Yeah. Let me just show. I'll just show our viewers. That's a picture of you and your brother, Dave. And, yeah, you do look. You. You look bigger. You look.

Mark Schultz [00:31:27] Your.

John Dehlin [00:31:27] Your chest looks larger. You look a little taller. And honestly, your arms. I'm not trying to be flattering. Your arms seem more muscular than your brother. So, yeah, I, you know, I didn't know.

Mark Schultz [00:31:41] Yeah, that's the thing that, that a lot of people ascribe, you know, Dave being a great technician, too, because he's not really built like a wrestler. He's built like, I don't know, every. You know, just a regular, everyday guy. You know, I have more of the typical wrestler. Built, but he is deceptively strong. His hips are incredibly strong. Even every time he used to throw legs in on me, I used to swear it was illegal. That's a joke.

John Dehlin [00:32:19] Anything else comes to mind when you see this photo

Mark Schultz [00:32:24] that happened at the Olympic trials. That was right after we both made the Olympic team in 84.

John Dehlin [00:32:31] But you're wearing medals already.

Mark Schultz [00:32:33] Yeah, but they gave us those for winning the Olympic trials.

John Dehlin [00:32:36] Oh, Got it.

Mark Schultz [00:32:37] Got it.

John Dehlin [00:32:38] Okay. Was that a pretty happy time for you both to win?

Mark Schultz [00:32:43] Yes. There's no such thing as a good time when you're losing. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:54] I'm assuming you didn't lose a lot in your NCAA career, is that right?

Mark Schultz [00:32:59] I lost my freshman year after that. I never lost again.

John Dehlin [00:33:03] Like, never lost any match?

Mark Schultz [00:33:06] Oh, no. I lost matches, but I never lost a NCAA title. I lost my. My. My record my freshman year was 18 and 8. And half of those losses came at 150 pounds. My coach wanted me to cut to 150. And I was so lean from being a gymnast, I had to dehydrate to get down that way. And I lost four matches in a row because cutting weight killed. Dehydration kills your conditioning. And so I. And I never cut weight again after that. And then my sophomore year I was 24 and 3. My junior year I was 27 and 2. My senior year I was 27 0.

John Dehlin [00:33:49] Wow, 27 0. Undefeated your senior year?

Mark Schultz [00:33:53] Yeah. I set the Oklahoma record for most wins in a single season without loss.

John Dehlin [00:34:00] So if I. So the. The 1984 Summer Olympics were in Los Angeles, I guess. I think Carl Lewis. Is that. Was that the year that Carl Lewis.

Mark Schultz [00:34:10] Kind of dumb.

John Dehlin [00:34:11] Yeah.

Mark Schultz [00:34:12] Any.

John Dehlin [00:34:12] Anything you want to say about the 19? I mean, I guess training for the Olympics and then what it was like particularly to compete in the 1984 Summer Olympics?

Mark Schultz [00:34:25] Well, it was extremely high pressure because there was a boycott that year. And I tell it.

John Dehlin [00:34:32] Tell our. Tell our gen zers what that means.

Mark Schultz [00:34:37] Okay. I think nine Soviet bloc countries boycotted the Olympics that year because of our boycotting the 1980 Olympics. And they were getting revenge. So a lot of guys, a lot in the different weight classes on the US Team won gold medals that probably wouldn't have won had the entire world been there, especially the Soviet bloc countries. But other weight classes were really tough. They weren't dilute, diluted very much. And 12 of those weight classes were Dave's and mine.

Mark Schultz [00:35:20] Dave still had the 1981 world champion in his weight from West Germany. And I still had the European champion from Turkey that beat all the Russians. So it was not easy for us. So it was. I. I knew Dave was gonna win, though, and I think he was ranked to win. I came into the Olympics ranked second behind the European champion from Turkey.

Mark Schultz [00:35:44] And. Yeah, but. And. And the way. The way that you weigh in, the way at the Olympics when you. When you weigh in, you get on a scale, buck naked, you reach into a bucket, and you pull out an egg, and inside the egg is a number, and you open the egg up, and I drew the number six.

Mark Schultz [00:36:11] Well, you open the egg up, and they put all the even numbers on one side of the bracket and all the odd numbers on the other side. And so I get on there, pull out the number six, the number one ranked guy in the world right behind me. He gets on the scale, weighs in, pulls egg out of a bucket, and it's number eight. So first match two is gonna wrestle four, and six is gonna wrestle eight. I have the gold medal match, my very first match, and this is only my second international tournament, and I am scared out of my mind.

Mark Schultz [00:36:46] And so I go back to my hotel room, and I just stare at a wall for two hours, sweating, sitting, waiting for this match. And the first move of the match, he does a limp arm to a high crotch, grabs my leg. And I had seen this move by some Cuban to some guy from Paraguay or Uruguay, one of those GWE countries. And he did this double wrist lock.

Mark Schultz [00:37:12] And I. I had never done it in that way before, but I felt I had no other option, and I threw it, and he landed on his head, broke his elbow, and I landed on top of him and pinned him.

Mark Schultz [00:37:27] And then I had another match later that day. And then I'm sitting in the stands and the loudspeakers come on and said, mark Schultz has been disqualified from that match for excessive brutality. But because the guy that I hurt is out of the tournament with a broken arm, I could still win the gold medal as long as I kept winning, which is what I did.

Mark Schultz [00:37:55] But I had a very tough third match with the Canadian, who was just the closest match I think I've ever had in my life. And. But thank God. That's another miracle. It makes me believe in God. Thank God I won that, too. But, man, it was hard. It was. I didn't know if I could do. It was an experience, a learning experience, that's for sure.

John Dehlin [00:38:24] I would imagine that you wouldn't have broken that guy's arm on purpose, that you can't really control those types of things, right?

Mark Schultz [00:38:32] No, it was a freak accident.

John Dehlin [00:38:33] Yeah. So here's a photo. Is that a photo of you and your brother as Olympic championship, right?

Mark Schultz [00:38:40] Yes. That's in Olympic Grove in Palo Alto. They created a grove there next to our house and gave us these redwood trees to plant. And so that's what we did right there. That was like three days after we got back from the Olympics. Wow.

John Dehlin [00:39:01] Did you, did you have any interaction with other famous Olympians that, that's worth mentioning? Carl Lewis.

Mark Schultz [00:39:08] Yeah, I took a, I took a Jacuzzi with Evander Holyfield. Boy, he got screwed in the 84 Olympics. So man, it was bad. He hit the, I think the New Zealander like you know, a half a second after the bell wrong and they disqualified it anyway.

John Dehlin [00:39:26] Yeah, okay, so, so that's kind of a big deal to win an Olympic gold medal when you come back, I imagine. Are you, were you on the Wheaties box? Like did you get endorsements? Did, did any financial compensation come as a result of winning a gold medal? What was that like? Were you in ticker tape parades, you know all that?

Mark Schultz [00:39:49] Well, I met the Met President Reagan and Nancy and then we went on a three city tour afterwards we flew to New York City and Dallas and went into these parades and stuff and, but no sponsors were forthcoming. There was no money for our wrestling for wrestlers.

John Dehlin [00:40:22] I mean, it's kind of mind blowing. I'm showing a photo of you and your brother with Ronald and Nancy Reagan. It's kind of hard to imagine, like I, I don't think the rest of us would, would imagine that you could literally win a gold medal, meet the President of the United States and his wife and, and not have it lead to like to not be set for the rest of your life. I mean, that's kind of what I think the rest of us would assume happens when you win a gold medal. But that's not what happened.

Mark Schultz [00:40:53] No, they're wrong. That definitely not what happened. There's no money for wrestlers now. There is, but when I was competing there wasn't. There was no regional training centers, no athlete resident program, no bonuses for winning gold medals. It is very difficult to compete with the professionals in the Soviet bloc countries. You had to sacrifice everything to spend all your time training, right?

John Dehlin [00:41:28] I guess. Do some want to diminish those gold medals because some of those Soviet bloc countries weren't, weren't competing?

Mark Schultz [00:41:37] Well, yes, I, I, I admit that some of the, of the status or prestige from some of the other guys gold medals was not as, as, as great as it would have been if the Soviet bloc countries were there. But the guy that, the guy whose arm I broke, he beat all the Soviet bloc countries. He was the European champion. Russia and all the Soviets, they compete in the European championships.

Winning the Olympic Gold Medal

Mark Schultz [00:42:12] So you know, to me it wasn't, it wasn't really a, a let down in status. It wasn't like I had a lower status gold medal or anything. The other guys in other weight classes might have thought that because a lot of the other weight classes were wiped out by the boycott. But like my brother, I don't think he, his was definitely the toughest weight in the entire Olympics and my weight was probably the third toughest.

Mark Schultz [00:42:45] But the next year my brother was also the only guy, only wrestler to win the world championships the year before the Olympics. And I was the only Olympic champion from 84 to win the 85 World Championships where all the Soviet bloc countries were there.

John Dehlin [00:43:05] Oh, okay. Well that answers, that kind of answers that question. And then you went on to win in 87 as well, right?

Mark Schultz [00:43:13] Right.

John Dehlin [00:43:13] Yeah. Okay, well that's super, that's super cool. Really quickly, talk about some, somebody mentioned in the comments that cutting weight. This is a comment from Nathan Peterson. Cutting weight is the worst. Do you want to talk about that and if you had to do that and what that was like for you?

Cutting Weight and Life as a Wrestler

Mark Schultz [00:43:36] Yeah, all wrestlers have to cut weight and it's just part of the sport. It's a, it's one of the most mentally grueling, grinding parts of the sport.

John Dehlin [00:43:49] And how, so what makes it so grueling and grinding?

Mark Schultz [00:43:54] You ever been thirsty?

John Dehlin [00:43:57] Oh, see, see you don't drink or eat to, to lose weight.

Mark Schultz [00:44:03] Not towards the very end. I mean you, you have to cut back a lot on your, on everything

John Dehlin [00:44:11] while still, while still training.

Mark Schultz [00:44:13] I, I, I tried to cut back on eliminating my food first and then my liquids after that. And you know, the last day of weigh ins, you know, the day you gotta weigh in, you typically don't drink anything until after weigh ins and then, you know, bulk back up as much, you rehydrate as much as you can. I didn't really, I didn't really cut a lot of weight. I, I, well my sophomore year I think I did, but after that I didn't. I, it grinds on you mentally. It's, wrestling is already so hard anyway. If you add the grind of cutting weight on top of that, it's gonna burn you out pretty quick.

Mark Schultz [00:44:58] So I, I tried not to wrestle it, cut too much weight. You know, I, I just figured if I trained as Hard as I could. And my body would assume the optimal weight and whatever that was, I just go to whatever the weight was right below that.

John Dehlin [00:45:18] Got it. Okay. All right. So I guess does it make sense to kind of try transition in the story to the Fox catchers, John Dupont kind of portion of your life? Because that idea of you not getting wealthy from your, your Olympic gold medal in 84 and, you know, they're not being the opportunities for wrestlers in the 80s like there is now. Should we talk about how you got, you know, how you got connected with, with John Dupont and the Fox catchers outfit?

John du Pont and Foxcatcher Farm

Mark Schultz [00:45:49] Yeah. You know, if, if, if I had had any other source of income from anywhere, I, I wouldn't have gone there. But he lied to get me there. He said he wasn't going to have anything to do with the Villanova program. That's the reason I went there. Well, not to join Team Foxcatcher. It was to get the job at Villanova. And he had sponsored basketball and swimming at Villanova. He's got his name on the pavilion, the John Dupont Pavilion and John Dupont Swimming Complex, but he has nothing to do with those sports.

Mark Schultz [00:46:33] But when it came to wrestling, he would not leave me alone. He wouldn't leave wrestling alone. And he started at first, he didn't come around at all. And then he started coming in a little bit more and more. And pretty soon he's there every day just wasting my time talking about nothing, just coming in drunk or on drugs and just. I couldn't stand being around him. He just. I. But I didn't have another. Looking back at it, I should have joined the military, but I grew up in the Vietnam era and I saw people coming back that were completely screwed up. So I thought, that's not an option for me either.

Mark Schultz [00:47:17] So I was kind of trapped in a way, and I didn't really know what to do. And there just wasn't a lot of jobs out there that, you know, their Title nine is wiping out college men's wrestling programs. And there used to be, you know, when I was competing, there was like 400 something programs. Now there's like only 70.

John Dehlin [00:47:41] Don't know about title nine. Why don't you just explain that really quick and how it impacted college wrestling?

Mark Schultz [00:47:48] Yeah, as a matter of fact, that was the reason they gave me that. They dropped wrestling at BYU because of Title 9. But I don't believe it.

John Dehlin [00:47:55] We'll get to that.

Mark Schultz [00:47:57] Title 9 is the Federal law. It says you cannot discriminate based on gender or religion or sexual preference or skin Color. And because football is the goose that lays the golden egg and pays for all the sports in every athletic department, usually they never can cut football. So that's 60.

Mark Schultz [00:48:28] It might be 80 full rides going to men. And women complain using Title 9 as their to as their. The reason they're complaining, saying, you can't discriminate against us because we're women. So you have to give us the equivalent of 60 full rides and foot to match in football and whatever other. So what they do is they wipe out men's sports. And since wrestling doesn't have a corresponding female sport, I mean, it kind of does now a little, but it's not much.

Mark Schultz [00:49:06] They are. Wrestling is always usually axed, like first. So that's what killed. That's what killed wrestling across the country. That killed so many programs across the country. That's why we land 70 D1 programs now.

John Dehlin [00:49:25] Yeah. Okay, so I'm going to show really quickly. There's a photo of John Dupont. You're on the. Right there. And who's that guy in the middle?

Mark Schultz [00:49:34] That's Dan Shade. I drug him around with me to be my workout partner when I went to Oklahoma, and then when I went to Fox Villanova. I'm the godfather to his kid. He named his kid after me.

John Dehlin [00:49:52] Oh, wow.

Mark Schultz [00:49:52] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:49:53] All right, so maybe just explain what John Dupont's pitch was, what, what team Fox Catcher was, what it was trying to do, and why he hired you and, and you know, what you did while you were there.

Mark Schultz [00:50:07] He didn't, he didn't hire me to go to Fox Catcher. He hired me to be an assistant coach at Villanova. Got it. And part of the deal was that I would wrestle for Fox Catcher as my club. But the only, the only difference between representing one club versus another is what do you write in the club affiliation blank at the tournament. And so I used to be a Sun Kiss kid, but I couldn't survive financially, so I. I took the job at Villanova and I agreed to wrestle for Team 5 catcher during the freestyle season.

John Dehlin [00:51:02] But I guess I don't understand what a club is or does, you know, because I'm imagining you're on his estate and there's a wrestling sort of like Jim, and that there would be lots of lots, lots of fellow athletes and some type of coach, and you would be practicing and getting better, you know, at Dupont's mansion slash headquarters kind of thing. That's. That's how I imagine it in my mind. That's. That's not how it was for you.

Mark Schultz [00:51:31] Not at all. Okay, that. That was kind of the way it was for my brother.

John Dehlin [00:51:37] Is that right? He came later.

Mark Schultz [00:51:38] He came, yeah, two years later, and I had left by then, and the. The wrestling room that dupont built on his estate has. Wasn't built when I was there. And he was. He told me that if I came to Villanova, he was going to turn this building called the Butler Annex into the next wrestling room.

Mark Schultz [00:52:03] But when I got there, we didn't have any wrestling room, so we had to roll mats out every day, which was a real pain in the ass. And. And we never did get that wrestling room at Villanova. And it was just a series of lies and just promises that was never kept. And, you know, plus the fact that he told me he wasn't going to even be a part of it, and here he was right in the middle of it, you know, taking over as, like, the head coach or whatever, and it just.

Mark Schultz [00:52:42] It almost within three months after going to Villanova, I knew I made a big mistake, but I didn't know where. Where to go from there. So I just bided my time waiting before I left. And. But yeah, that was. It was a doom program. They dropped the program two years after they started it because it was. It was chaos. It was. It wasn't functioning. No, he destroyed it before it had it. There was.

Disturbing Behavior at Foxcatcher

Mark Schultz [00:53:16] He was. Just kept firing people and hiring new ones and firing them. It was like. I don't know, it's like musical chairs. And the athletic director was fed up, and the president of the school was fed up, and finally Dupont just said, we're dropping the program, and they dropped it. I finished out the 88 Olympics for team Fox catcher, and then I packed up my shit and got out of there. I just. So.

John Dehlin [00:53:53] So the, you know, you know, we'll. We'll talk later about what happened between John Dupont and your brother, but there were.

Mark Schultz [00:53:59] There.

John Dehlin [00:54:00] There are a lot of rumors. I mean, obviously he ends up killing your brother, and we'll talk about that in a second, but, you know, there are rumors of sexual abuse, of drug use, you know, and of just him being unstable. And. And obviously you end up competing in the 1988 Olympics, but you. You end up, you know, by your report, you intentionally lost because you didn't want to. To have. Give John Dupont any credit or glory for in any way being associated with that win. What were the. What were the behaviors that. That you saw in John Dupont that made you so revulsed by him that you would intentionally throw an Olympic match because you didn't want Anything, Any positive associations to accrue to him. Does that make sense? What, what, what behaviors were disturbing, most disturbing to you in John Dupont?

Mark Schultz [00:55:00] Well, first of all, he was about the ugliest person I've ever seen in my life. He just had this stomach that looked like he swallowed a basketball. He had this orange, weird orange Ronald McDonald hair and he didn't keep it up, so he had these gray roots in the middle. And then he had food, like caked on these yellow teeth. And he'd be spitting all the time when he was talking. And.

Mark Schultz [00:55:33] He just, he was always drunk or on drugs and he wouldn't shut up. And he didn't. He wasn't a serious person. He was just. He was like a kid that never grew up. He just spoiled the rotten his whole life. Trust fund baby to spoil. And here he wants to try to associate with really tough guys like me and Dave and, and other wrestlers because, you know, he's, he's not. And he, and it just, you know, if you want to win, you have to associate with winners. And if you don't, if you're associating with losers, it rubs off on you. And, and it, I, I could not get away from this guy.

Mark Schultz [00:56:28] And finally I just. So that's it. I can't do this anymore. And. But yeah, you know, some people talk about sex abuse, but people don't know. He had. He was a eunuch. He lost his testicles in a horse riding accident. He was a pentathlete and he would.

Mark Schultz [00:56:49] He was jumping over a fence and the horse threw him onto the fence and he straddled it. His testicles were infected and had to be removed. So he was a very. He had a lot of feminine characteristics because he didn't have any testosterone in his system.

Mark Schultz [00:57:11] And anyway, he, that, that would screw me up if I lost my testicles. I'd probably be a drug addict and alcoholic too. I don't give him any credit for that because, you know, the way he acted and the way he was real arrogant and he just had no reason to be. It just wouldn't shut up. I couldn't stand him.

John Dehlin [00:57:33] Yeah, I think in the 30, 30, 30 for 30 documentary I saw, he got into like weapons and assault rifles and that sort of stuff. Like. And he was doing cocaine a lot. And like, man, cocaine and automatic weapons, that. Those two don't mix, right?

Mark Schultz [00:57:51] I guess. Yeah. Nah. No, they don't. I get, you know, he proved that.

John Dehlin [00:57:57] Yeah.

Mark Schultz [00:57:58] So he had this huge thing of cocaine in his dresser drawer. It had the words Evidence written on the side of the bag. And he stuck his straw in and he took this hit. I thought he was going to go into cardiac fibrillation. And I go, what do you want me to do? If you go into cardiac fibrillation, you goes, call my lawyer. Are you sure you don't want me to call ambulance? It's like, no, call my lawyer. But it was like, it didn't affect him. He. I think he was so, like, already zonked out on drugs, you know, nothing affected him.

John Dehlin [00:58:37] So. Yeah. So you. You go on to compete in the 1988 Olympics, and you lost, and you're not. You're not a loser. I've already kind of alluded to why you lost, but do you want to talk it. Talk to anything about your 1988 Olympic appearance and loss?

Mark Schultz [00:58:58] Well, if you go on the UFC fight pass, you can see all the. They cover that. That issue pretty. Pretty thoroughly. It's. It's the latest episode of fightlore. It's called Wrestling Demons, and that's Mark Schultz. It's. It's called Wrestling Demons, Mark Schultz's Ultimate Victory.

Mark Schultz [00:59:23] And you can watch if you're interested in why I threw my last match, and it was just. It was against a Turkish guy, and I would have thrown it to anybody. It wouldn't have mattered what country it was from. But because I had broken the Turk's arm in the 84 Olympics, I've been told that there's a story going around Turkey that this guy that I threw the match to got revenge for the first guy. First Turkish guy. But it wouldn't have mattered who. Who I was wrestling. I was. I was gonna throw the match and quit wrestling, walk away from wrestling because I just couldn't deal with it anymore. I couldn't deal with Dupont.

John Dehlin [01:00:10] What. Why didn't you just not compete in the Olympics at all and just not even go?

Mark Schultz [01:00:19] Yeah, it was. I should have. I shouldn't. I should. I should have let Mike Sheets go. I'm sure if I would have let Mike Sheets go, the guy that I beat to make the Olympic team, I'm sure he would have won a gold medal.

John Dehlin [01:00:34] Yeah, because that's You. You won. You won in. In the Olympic trials, right? I mean.

Mark Schultz [01:00:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:00:43] Yeah. Okay. But I. I guess maybe you just got caught up in. In a repeat kind of thing. Maybe.

Mark Schultz [01:00:52] What? I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:00:53] Do you remember when you decided to throw it versus. You know. Yeah. Do you remember when.

Mark Schultz [01:00:59] Yeah, it was. It was right before that match.

John Dehlin [01:01:04] Okay. Got it. Okay. And that's not the way I imagine you would have wanted to end your wrestling career. Right,

Mark Schultz [01:01:17] right. I wanted to go out a winner, but I just could not give dupont the prestige and status of producing an Olympic champion. And he was so kind of just so overbearing and just always around, and I'm not used to that. I do not, I do not respond well with that kind of encroachment upon my privacy. I just, I can't deal with it.

John Dehlin [01:01:49] So what, what, what was it like for you psychologically to go out that way to lose?

Mark Schultz [01:01:56] Depressing.

John Dehlin [01:01:58] Yeah, it was.

Mark Schultz [01:01:59] I was almost like traumatized, you know, because I had to live with that for, by myself for all this time.

John Dehlin [01:02:11] So you got, did you, did you kind of get to a dark place after the 88 Olympics?

Mark Schultz [01:02:16] Yes, really dark. That's when I ended up going to byu.

John Dehlin [01:02:25] Yeah. So tell us how you ended up after losing the 1988 Olympics. How did you end up at BYU?

Mark Schultz [01:02:33] I was on a ski vacation in Park City, and I had traveled there to find the most vertical drop in the country for the money. And so I went there and I skied for about a week. And then I just felt like I needed to work out. And the only people that could work out with me were Division 1 college guys.

Mark Schultz [01:03:05] And the only Division 1 college team in the state of Utah was BYU. So I went down there and the first guy I met, he, I, I asked him and I loved. When I first pulled into byu, I was so impressed. I mean, the Y mountain in the backdrop and just this really clean campus, it was pretty impressive. And I was like, man, man, this would be the greatest job if I could get the head coaching job here and run my own wrestling camps, I can make a lot of money. Turns out BYU is the only college in the country that runs all their own camps, so I never got to do that.

Mark Schultz [01:03:54] But the, the, when I showed up on campus, I was so. And there was like this, I don't know, it's like a eight point mule deer or something walking right between the Richards building and the Smith field house. I was like, man, this is the greatest campus in the world. And so I'm first guy I met, I talked, I was asking him, you know, I saw you Mormon. He's like, yeah. And I go, why'd you come here? He goes, well, he's trying to brag me. He goes, well, actually, tell you the truth, I came here to wrestle. I was like, really? Oh, we'll probably run into each other then.

Mark Schultz [01:04:34] Mark Schultz. And he got so embarrassed because he Knew I caught him in a lie because he knew I wasn't going to see him in the wrestling room. So that was my first person I met on campus. And then I went to the athletic department and I got a brochure, a wrestling team brochure, because I wanted to look at who the head coach was so I could walk up to him. Like, I already knew who he was and stuff, but I really didn't. But I acted like I did because I read this pamphlet, you know, so when I saw him, I was like, hey, Alan. But me and him became really fast friends, and he's a great guy.

Joining BYU and Encountering Mormonism

John Dehlin [01:05:16] What was his name?

Mark Schultz [01:05:17] Alan Albright.

John Dehlin [01:05:19] Okay. And what, what year were you, did you show up on BYU campus?

Mark Schultz [01:05:26] That was 1991. February 91.

John Dehlin [01:05:29] So I was at BYU in 1991. That's kind of fun.

Mark Schultz [01:05:33] Really?

John Dehlin [01:05:34] Yeah.

Mark Schultz [01:05:35] Wow.

John Dehlin [01:05:35] Yeah, I finished my mission in 1990. So I was there when you, when you were on BYU campus. So was I.

Mark Schultz [01:05:44] That's crazy.

John Dehlin [01:05:45] Yeah, that's fun. Yeah, I finished at BYU 93. So we were there during. We overlapped. So what, what did you know about Mormons? You know, you know, by the time you're showing up at byu, what was your impression of Mormons in the Mormon Church? Or did you have any.

Mark Schultz [01:06:05] Yes, I, I told my, my wife at the time, I said, you know, be careful. These guys are all brainwashed cult members. And I had, I had known a couple of Mormon people when I was younger that I didn't really like that much, and that was the only thing I knew about him. And I, you know, I, I shouldn't have, you know, ascribed, you know, any characteristics to anyone else other than the people that, that I met. But I, I did not have a positive view of Mormons at the time, and I, I really thought it was a, it was a brainwashed cult.

John Dehlin [01:06:59] Well, that's, that's kind of weird, though, because I imagine with an Olympic gold medal, having competed twice in the Olympics, with three NCAA championships, you literally could have gone to any wrestling program in the United States States and got a coaching job. So, like, if you add to that the fact that you thought the Mormon Church was a cult, why in the heck would you choose BYU as, as a place to coach?

Mark Schultz [01:07:27] I don't know. I, I, you know, I wasn't getting any job offers when I went out in the 88 Olympics, I kind of turn my back on wrestling is very painful, and, but because of who I was, I didn't have a lot of options for jobs and stuff, so. I knew I could become a coach somewhere, but you know, I thought, I don't know, you know, politics is kind of plays a part in it too, you know, getting a job somewhere and you know, who you know and stuff. I don't know, I, I just really liked byu. I liked the campus because it was so clean and the people were really clean, like a bunch of Ken and Barbie dolls.

John Dehlin [01:08:21] It's impressive.

Mark Schultz [01:08:25] I just, I, I don't know, I just thought. I, I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:08:34] Yeah, well, I mean, the campus is beautiful and that's probably one of the reasons they make it so beautiful, because it's impressive. Really quickly, one of our viewers, Coco B. Asks, did you get a degree? University of Oklahoma? And if so, what was it in or did you not graduate?

Mark Schultz [01:08:49] Yeah, I have a, I have a bachelor's from the University of Oklahoma and a master's from byu.

John Dehlin [01:08:56] What are they in?

Mark Schultz [01:08:58] Exercise science.

John Dehlin [01:09:00] Okay, all right, thanks for the question, Coco B. And really quickly, all our viewers on YouTube. It would mean a lot to me if you guys would just take a minute to subscribe to our YouTube channel. That will make it so you're notified whenever a new episode comes out. So you won't miss any of our shows. But also we're trying to reach a hundred thousand subscribers. That's really good for the channel and for the algorithms once you hit a hundred thousand. So please subscribe to YouTube if you can. For you and for Mormon Stories podcast. Okay, so, so you joined BYU as a never Mormon, thinking that the Mormon church might be a cult. So what was that like?

Converting to the Mormon Church

Mark Schultz [01:09:46] Well, you know, I didn't really pay much attention to religion my whole life. You know, I believed in God, but I didn't know, like I couldn't visualize him or anything. So I start coaching. Alan Albright hires me almost right away and after over a period and one thing he says to me, I want to. After a couple weeks, I think maybe three weeks, he goes, you know, Mark, the BYU is threatening to drop wrestling and I'm thinking of getting out. And if they don't drop it, I'll probably be gone in three years. And if you want, I can make it so you take over as the head coach.

Mark Schultz [01:10:43] But I can tell you right now that they're not going to hire a non member again because the guy they had before Alan, what got rep, got some kind of scandal or something and so I, I just was like, okay. So for about eight months after.

Mark Schultz [01:11:09] Arriving there and getting the job there, Alan was constantly feeding me the scriptures, like, you Know, there's, you know, these other sheep which, you know, not of this fold and, you know, the stick of Judah and the stick of Joseph. And he keeps feeding me these lines, you know, and I, I'm like, oh, okay. So he gave me these, this tape, not, not a cassette tape of the Book of Mormon because my eyesight's not that great, so I would rather listen than read. But so I'm listening to these tapes in this story about, you know, we high coming to America, you know, the whole nine yards. And I'm like, wow, this is one hell of a story, you know,

John Dehlin [01:12:13] So.

Mark Schultz [01:12:14] But I was, I was constantly searching for something I could hang my hat on, because I didn't. I needed some kind of scientific evidence to, to live with myself. If I was going to join the church. I, I needed to have a reason that I, that, that where I felt like I could prove in my mind scientifically that this is true. And then when I found chiasmus, that became my piece of evidence and that gave me the rationalization to get baptized. And Alan baptized me.

John Dehlin [01:13:02] Okay, really quickly, for those of our listeners, we have non Mormons. Half of our audience has never been Mormon. So is there any way you could just try to explain a little bit about chiasmus and how it relates to the Book of Mormon and, and why you felt like that was evidence that would make you want to join the church?

Mark Schultz [01:13:23] Yeah, yeah. It's a chiasmus is like a palindrome. It's like the, the name Hannah. H A N N A H. The first half is exactly the same as the second half, but in reverse order. Well, in chiasmus, instead of letters being formed in that forward, backward order, there are words or ideas that are formed in that, that, that, that strict order. It's mathematic, you know, it, it. Anyway, in my mind, when I found chiasmus in Alma 36, I was like, wow, what are the chances that Joseph made up the Book of Alma or Alma 36 off the top of his head? And these words are ordered in this specific order.

Mark Schultz [01:14:29] And I thought because of that, it's beyond chance. It's beyond random chance. Therefore, he this must be it. Chiasmus is an ancient Hebrew poetic device used in the memorization of long text and significant spiritual events. And it only found in ancient Hebrew literature.

Mark Schultz [01:15:03] And when I found it in Alma 36, I convinced myself that there's no way Joseph could have made it up. Therefore, he's a real prophet. And I mean, I have defended Joseph as a real prophet up until about three months ago.

John Dehlin [01:15:26] So, yeah, so I think it was John Welch who. Or Jack Welch who came up with this idea of chiasmus in the Book of Mormon as a proof that. That the Book of Mormon is. Is an ancient document. The problem with that logic is that you can find chiasmus in, like, Dr. Seuss books, like it's in the Bible and it's. It's repetitive everywhere. But I mean, you alluded to this in a phone call we had earlier today. You. You kind of had some motivating factors to make you want to believe. Is that right, Mark?

Mark Schultz [01:16:00] Yes, I wanted the job. I'd say half the reason I joined was to get the job. I just needed some kind of scientific evidence to prove that, you know, it was true. But then I find out, you know, a couple months ago that there's Chaosmus in Alice in Wonderland, the Late War and First book of Napoleon, you know, the view of the Hebrews. And I'm like, oh, maybe he just plagiarized it, if that. That would explain how it got in there.

John Dehlin [01:16:36] Yeah, yeah. But. But you. You really wanted and needed a good job, and you were captivated by. By the BYU campus. And I just think that that kind of explains how conversion can often happen when. Whether it's a girl or a woman you fall in love with, you know, whether it's a job you need, whether you're just lonely and desperate, there's this idea of confirmation bias or motivated reasoning, which is you can almost talk yourself into literally believing anything if psychologically or emotionally, you want it bad enough. Is that fair to say? I don't mean to put words in your mouth.

Mark Schultz [01:17:15] Yeah. And also due to the fact that. That missionaries are trained to only speak about certain things in their. Whatever. What I. Back when I joined, it was six lessons. Well, they're not. They. They. They're not even taught the history of the church, so they can't even teach that to us, to new investigators. They. So because the truth is omitted, there's so many omissions that, I mean, I found out, you know, recently, but that's what kept me in. It was the fact that I didn't have the information and I didn't want to look for it. I just wanted to get my. Get paid, feed my family, you know, and just live in peace, you know?

John Dehlin [01:18:18] Yeah, we. We always love it when scholar Joseph Smith, scholar Dan Vogel joins us. And Dan Vogel wants to remind us that Alma 36 is a very sloppy reverse parallelism. So. So Dan's basically saying, even as Far as chiasmus goes, Joseph didn't pull it off very well. Have you heard of Dan Vogel yet?

Mark Schultz [01:18:37] Oh, I'm a huge fan of dance.

John Dehlin [01:18:39] All right, so shout out to Dan Vogel. We love you, Dan. All right, so you. So you join the Mormon Church. Chiasmus helps convince you. You say that the. The missionaries withheld a lot of important information from you. We won't have you go into that. We'll come to that later at the. Towards the end when we learn about your unraveling. What can you tell us about what it's like to teach, to coach at an intercollegiate level at the Lord's one true university? What was that like?

Mark Schultz [01:19:11] It was outstanding. It really was. Oh, it was the greatest experience of my life. I loved it. I really did. I. But made me happy. I mean, all the things that made BYU so great for me was the people that I met there.

Mark Schultz [01:19:34] I recruited Chael Sonnet to come to byu. He is one of the greatest UFC fighters. He's my favorite UFC fighter. I wouldn't have met Pedro Sauer, my Brazilian jiu jitsu black belt. I wouldn't have met David Benito, the. The guy that I was training for UFC 9.

Mark Schultz [01:19:56] I wouldn't have met all the wrestlers that I had. Aaron Holker, NCAA champion. When he, when he wrestled for me, he was the first all American in 13 years as a freshman, and they dropped the program. He transfers to Iowa State and wins the NCAAs the next year.

Mark Schultz [01:20:16] And I just. I. I just was. I just felt really lucky to be part of that, that, you know, that, that, that, that world. And I. And. And, you know, I was a staunch defender of Joseph Smith up until a couple months ago. I. I'd take down anybody I could. I even tell Joe Rogan, I'm so stupid. I was like, I.

Mark Schultz [01:20:48] Joe Rogan, he makes fun of the Mormon Church all the time. And I. I sent him a message one time after the movie came out. He wanted me on really bad, but I didn't go on that. But I. If I would have gone on there and, like, defended the Mormon Church on Joe Rogan, I would have ruined my name. I thank God he didn't put me on. Anyway, that's another reason I believe in God. So.

John Dehlin [01:21:18] So you. You want Joe Rogan, wanted you to come on his podcast, but you wouldn't go on because he was critical of the Mormon Church?

Mark Schultz [01:21:24] No, no, no, Not. Not at all. There. There was an. It was almost like a miracle. It was. An unforeseen series of strange events took place Right after he wanted me to come on and I just couldn't get there. It was just strange. And I.

John Dehlin [01:21:43] You view it as a miracle because you. You don't want that. That video out there of you trying to defend Mormonism to Joe Rogan. Is that what you're saying? Kind of like the Brandon Flowers. Was it Christopher Hitchens? When he goes on that talk show with Christopher Hitchens, it just gets dressed down. You didn't want. You didn't want. You're glad that never happened? Is that what you're saying?

Mark Schultz [01:22:05] I look like a fool.

John Dehlin [01:22:10] So that's another miracle that makes you believe in God? Is that what you're saying?

Mark Schultz [01:22:16] Absolutely. I really do. I honestly believe that occurred for a reason, the way it occurred for a reason.

John Dehlin [01:22:24] So, dude, now you can go on Joe Rogan now.

Mark Schultz [01:22:27] Now it's the time, right? The fight episodes out. I'm out of the church. It's time Joe Rogan. Call me.

Coaching Wrestling at BYU

John Dehlin [01:22:37] Okay, so going back to your time at BYU. So I.1 of the jobs I had as a. As a BYU student was being a tutor to NCAA athletes at byu. And one of the things I noticed there was that a lot of those athletes did not obey the honor code. One of the football players that I was tutoring lived with his girlfriend at byu, but just kind of hit it. I know that there was a lot of partying and sex going on with the BYU athletes. And then obviously a lot of these BYU athletes were not Mormon, would never be Mormon, and were there for. For the athletics, not for the honor code or for the religious stuff. Do you have any stories you want to tell about trying to be competitive in. In the NCAA world at byu? While. While your athletes are, in theory, expected to. To obey the honor code?

Mark Schultz [01:23:32] Yeah, the honor was the biggest stumbling block for recruiting because you have to sign an agreement, an honor code agreement saying that you're willing to stay celibate or not have sex until marriage. Well, how many kids in the world will sign an agreement like that? It's pretty rare. Only. Only LDS kids. So I ended up with an almost in all LDS team because of that. But they were very, you know, family oriented. I mean, I used to go to tournaments and I like, talk to the Purdue coach and I'd be like, how many guys on your team are married? He's like, none. I'm like, are you married? No. About your assistant coaches, no. I'm like, okay. He goes, how many guys are married? I go, seven of my 10 starters are married. One of them's got two kids. Another one's got another kid, and I don't know how they do it.

John Dehlin [01:24:41] So would. Is being married a disadvantage to being a competitive wrestler? Is that, Is that what you're saying?

Mark Schultz [01:24:52] I. I don't know that answer to that question. I, I'm not, I'm not saying it's better or worse. I'm just saying it's different.

John Dehlin [01:25:06] So how competitive were your, your wrestling teams at byu? Did they do well? Did they not do well?

Mark Schultz [01:25:13] The first year I took over, we were like fourth in the conference, and then for like the next three or four years, we were like third. And then we. The ne. Our final year, we beat all the schools in our conference, but we moved into another conference, so we took second in that conference behind ninth ranked Northern Iowa. But we destroyed everybody my final year in the, in the WAC championships.

John Dehlin [01:25:46] Okay, so you were in the whack before the Mountain west was created, is that right?

Mark Schultz [01:25:51] Yeah. Yes.

John Dehlin [01:25:54] Okay. Okay. So you, you definitely improved the program while you were.

Mark Schultz [01:26:00] Oh, yeah, I had an all American wrestler. Athletic director Rondo Felberg, he's the one that told me he was dropping wrestling. Can you believe that?

John Dehlin [01:26:12] Oh, that BYU was dropping the rest. Dropping the wrestling program?

Mark Schultz [01:26:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:26:18] Do you, do you know, a lot of people ask that before the show even started. What can you tell us about why BYU dropped the wrestling program? You said it might have been Title 9. What do you, what can you tell us about that?

Mark Schultz [01:26:32] I, I think Title 9 might have played a part in it. You know, it's always about money, and we're not a revenue sport, so cutting us is going to save them money. They could put more money into football or women's sports. They cut wrestling. They took our wrestling room away and turned it into women's athletic offices.

Mark Schultz [01:26:56] And so I don't think they liked wrestling. I just, I think, I think we scared the them. I, you know, when I fought in the ufc, you know, they put, they put me in the color photograph on the COVID of the Sally Tribunal, Blood on the ground. And they got women saying, I don't think it's becoming conduct for a BYU faculty member to turn God's children into hamburger. And I get called into the president's office and he says, of course what I did is not what we're about, and I can't do it anymore. And I was like, okay. So I stayed and kept my job. I kept the health insurance for my kids. But what was the question?

The Death of Dave Schultz

John Dehlin [01:27:48] Yeah, so maybe, so maybe let's back up a tiny bit. Your, your brother's Death preceded your competing in the UFC 9 matches to. You want to. Do you want to just quickly tell. Tell everybody about what happened to your brother, why he was killed, how he was killed, what led up to his death, and then how you heard about it, and then how that led to you competing in the UFC 9?

Mark Schultz [01:28:13] Yeah. There's no motive proven at the trial. John Dupont murdered my brother. And this was January 26th, 1996. And I'm in my office, and I get a call from my.

John Dehlin [01:28:32] He was threatening to leave and not. Not work with John anymore.

Mark Schultz [01:28:36] Yeah, he said he was gonna leave after the next Olympics, and he knew that if Dave left, everybody was gonna leave, because everybody was there for Dave, not John.

John Dehlin [01:28:48] By that time, Foxcatcher or Fox catchers, whatever it was called, they were training, what, Olympic athletes? Is that what it was?

Mark Schultz [01:28:57] Well, Dave was training for the next Olympics. He was going to represent Team Fox Catcher in the next Olympics.

John Dehlin [01:29:04] Okay.

Mark Schultz [01:29:04] He had brought in a whole bunch of guys on to the farm as workout partners, and they were training, too, so everybody was training.

John Dehlin [01:29:14] Did Dave ever call you and say, man, these guys are crazy. Did you ever warn Dave not to work with John dupont? Like, what can you tell us about Dave's experience and why he even went to John dupont after you had such a bad experience?

Mark Schultz [01:29:31] Well, I think he just saw a way to keep competing and survive financially, you know, feed his family. There was not a lot of opportunity for wrestlers to do that, and so that was one of the few places that you could do it. So he took the job. I told him, you know, I. Obviously, I wouldn't have done it. That's why I left. But he wanted to get in there, and, you know, I don't know. Just, you know, we separated after I left Stanford for Villanova. Dave stayed at Stanford, and then he went to Wisconsin. And so we weren't really training with each other. We.

Mark Schultz [01:30:24] He was married. He had kids. I didn't. And he's, you know, is. He's living his life. What he. What the reasons why he went and was willing to work for dupont, I can't tell you, but I. I told him I wouldn't do it if I was you. But you're an adult. You make your own decisions. Yes. You know,

John Dehlin [01:30:49] well, I. I love the. The ESPN series, 30 for 30, just generally. But I'll refer everyone to that documentary called the Prince of Pennsylvania, because it tells the story of just dupont's craziness, including, like. Like I mentioned before, automatic weapons and cocaine and, you know, allegations of sexual impropriety. Whether or not those are true, like that's, It's a really compelling documentary. So, so sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off. So do you want to go to the. The day you learned about your. You probably had no idea that your brother's life was in danger, Is that right?

Mark Schultz [01:31:27] No.

John Dehlin [01:31:28] Yeah.

Mark Schultz [01:31:29] Nobody did. Yeah, that's weird. As dupont was, no one thought he would be. He, he would trade an 800 acre estate for an 8 by 10 cell. But he did.

John Dehlin [01:31:41] Yeah. So, so what happened? Tell us the day you found out about your brother's death.

Mark Schultz [01:31:47] Well, you can see this on that fight war episode. Wrestling Demons. I'm at my office in byu. I'm head coach and I get a phone call from my dad. He says, hey Mark, I got some bad news for you. I was like, what is it? John dupont pulled up to your brother's house, pulled out a gun and shot him and killed him. And I lost it and I started screaming and cursing. I probably cursed more than anybody in BYU history. And they, I just, I went home and I saw his 48 hour stand up. Dupont had barricaded himself in his house and for 48 hours. And finally the police turned the heat off and he asked for permission to come out and turn it back on. And when he came out, they tackled him, tried, convicted, went to prison for 14 years. Died in prison in2010 or 2009 one of the year.

John Dehlin [01:33:01] Did he die of natural causes or something else?

Mark Schultz [01:33:04] COPD and emphysema. He was smoking three packs a day. That's what I heard.

John Dehlin [01:33:12] So how did, did your Mormon faith in any way impact how you coped with, with the loss of your brother?

Mark Schultz [01:33:22] Yes. Yeah, I, I've really read the Book of Mormon like maybe two times or something. I don't know. I, I wanted to know, you know, if I was going to see Dave again. Yeah, Like I said, I didn't take my religion that seriously. I was just, you know, taking it in moderation. I never really, I mean, I defend it, you know, but I wouldn't, I wouldn't really. I never stopped drinking coffee. A friend of mine goes, mark, do you drink coffee? Yeah, every day.

John Dehlin [01:34:07] So you were a BYU athletic coach who drank, who drank coffee?

Mark Schultz [01:34:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:34:15] Okay, but, but the, but the Mormon church theology didn't, didn't really penetrate you in terms of helping you deal with your brother's death?

Mark Schultz [01:34:25] Now? I, I don't think so. Okay, I would.

John Dehlin [01:34:33] You would. Were you the type of Mormon that would like go to church on Sunday and bear Your testimony kind of thing or. Not really.

Mark Schultz [01:34:40] Yeah, I got up fast and Testimony probably like seven times in my life over 30 years.

John Dehlin [01:34:53] Not a lot.

Mark Schultz [01:34:54] I went to the temple three or four times over 30 years.

John Dehlin [01:35:00] What, what was your, what, what was it like going through the temple for the first time for you taking weird experience of taking out your diamonds?

Mark Schultz [01:35:11] Yeah, really weird. Those hats and the apron and. Oh, weird. Where I was like, what? This is definitely a cope.

John Dehlin [01:35:26] So you, you're. As a BYU coach, you're, you're still. You go through the temple and you feel like that you're cult, but you're, but your employer is the Mormon Church, is that right?

Mark Schultz [01:35:36] No, I'm, I'm kidding. But yeah, I, like I said, I only went through the temple twice the entire time that I was at byu and one was to baptize my brother and the other was to get my endowments.

John Dehlin [01:35:56] So you, you, you had your brother, you performed a baptism for the dead for your brother after he died in the Mormon Temple?

Mark Schultz [01:36:06] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:36:07] How was that a spiritual experience? And if so, what was that like?

Mark Schultz [01:36:13] Well, that was my very first time in a temple and I was very reverent. I thought it was a sacred place. You know, you're being told this is heaven on earth, you know, and you're going to learn all these things. Things. And so I went in there with my eyes open and my mouth shut and I just wanted to, to take it all in. I was very reverent and very respectful of everything that went on in there.

John Dehlin [01:36:48] And you came, came away from that experience thinking and feeling what?

Mark Schultz [01:36:57] Thinking and feeling that it's rooted in, in a lot more earthly materials and physical ceremonies and stuff than I expected. I thought I was going to have a spiritual experience and all I learned was, you know, these handshakes and code words and, you know, the, the. It wasn't, it wasn't like, you know, I wasn't blown away. You know, I, I thought it was a really beautiful building, but, you know, I would stare at it for, you know, how they built those, like the, the moldings and stuff. And I was like, wow, that. Because I'm a carpenter too. So I was admiring the construction more than anything.

John Dehlin [01:37:57] Did you hope that maybe you would be visited? Like, when I went to the Mormon Temple for the first time, I had been led to believe that maybe one of the spirits of the dead people that I was being baptized for would come visit me and appear in front of me when. While I was doing their baptism for the dead. Was there any part of you that hoped your brother. Your brother's spirit might visit you while you.

Mark Schultz [01:38:23] Yes, I. Yeah, that. Yeah. And I think maybe that's why I went in there, too, because I had some other members telling me that they went into the temple and they had, like, lost the baby when they were. When they were really young and that baby had grown up and appeared to them in the temple. And I'm so, you know, gullible. I believed them. So that's what I was expecting or not expecting, but I was hoping I might have an experience like that. But of course, that I didn't.

John Dehlin [01:39:03] So you didn't feel your brother's presence or anything like that?

Mark Schultz [01:39:07] No.

John Dehlin [01:39:09] And was that. Was that disappointing for you or not so much or.

Mark Schultz [01:39:17] Like I said, I didn't take religion that seriously. So I came out of it, and I go, well, that's. That's that. And I went home and I went back to the temple one more time to do some endowments with a friend of mine. I didn't really have much invested. And then I went to the temple here in Oregon a couple times. That's the only times I've been in an LDS temple.

John Dehlin [01:39:43] Okay, well, I'll make a joke here. Maybe it's because you were drinking coffee. Maybe that's why you didn't have that experience. I don't mean to. I don't mean to be making fun

Mark Schultz [01:39:55] of a serious thing, but I'm sure you're right. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:40:01] Your brother's like, I really want to visit. I really want to visit Mark, but he can't. Just can't quit the coffee. So I'm not coming.

Mark Schultz [01:40:10] Yeah, like you're. So if you LDS leaders are so perceptive, how come you couldn't tell I didn't belong in here?

John Dehlin [01:40:18] Oh, yeah. Yeah. But, I mean, you must have believed it enough to want to try. So you. You say you didn't take Mormonism too seriously, but you took it seriously enough to get a temple recommend to go in and to baptize. To baptize for your brother. So, I mean, I think maybe you hoped or believed a little more than you might be letting on. Is that possible?

Mark Schultz [01:40:45] Yeah, I'll admit I defended Joseph Smith and the LDS Church all the way, very strongly up until about three months ago.

John Dehlin [01:40:56] Yeah.

Mark Schultz [01:40:57] Two months.

John Dehlin [01:40:58] Yeah. Okay, so. So your.

Mark Schultz [01:41:03] So your brother requires so much from you, you can't be perfect. And so you're constantly, you know, being told, you know, by yours, by yourself, that you're. You're not living a good enough life. And so I Thought, man, if I. If I get too invested in this, I'm just gonna think I'm a piece of crap. So I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna worry about it too much.

John Dehlin [01:41:27] So you never really gave Mormonism your full heart because you felt like you could never live up to the standards, Is that what you're saying?

Mark Schultz [01:41:35] Yeah, I don't know how anybody can. I mean, it's impossible. They got like, 140 things you gotta do. It's ridiculous.

John Dehlin [01:41:44] Yeah, it's a lot. So how did you go from. From your brother's death to four months later? Tell our. Tell those of us who don't know what. What Ultimate Fighting, ufc, Ultimate Fighting Championship is and how you got into that and how you got into that as a Mormon and as a BYU athletic coach, because that some of those things don't seem to totally fit.

Mark Schultz [01:42:11] Yeah, well, that's why I say that my experience at BYU was outstanding, because for some reason, I get a phone call one day, and it's this guy named Steve. And he says, the greatest Jiu Jitsu fight. He goes, this Mark Schultz, the Olympic wrestling champion. I go, yeah. He goes, the greatest Jiu jitsu fighter in the world is in town.

Mark Schultz [01:42:42] Do you want to fight him? And I asked him, what are the rules? And he was trying to intimidate me. He goes, there are no rules. I was like, really? No rules? Okay, so what's gonna happen? I'm gonna commit a homicide, gouge his eyes out. I'm gonna bite his throat up. I didn't know what. What to think, but I wasn't gonna get anybody punk me. So I said, okay, meet me in the BYU wrestling room. I'll knock the shit out of him.

Mark Schultz [01:43:17] So we made a date. And I show up in the room, and it was Hickson Gracie. And he says. He says, you know, Mark, when I fight, I punch and kick and elbow and knee, but today we're just gonna do submission grappling until one of us taps out. So it wasn't anything like the guy on the floor phone said he was just trying to intimidate me.

Mark Schultz [01:43:40] And so we went in the center of the room and we went for about 40 minutes. And he tapped me twice and moves that I had never seen before. And after that, I found a student of his, a black belt student of his that was living in Provo at the time.

Mark Schultz [01:44:02] He just moved there. His name was Pedro Sauer. And so I went to Pedro's club and I asked if I could sign up and take jiu Jitsu from him. And so I started going to jiu jitsu, and then I combined the jiu jitsu with the wrestling and formed my own style.

Mark Schultz [01:44:21] And then I get a call from Pedro Sauer, my instructor. He says, dave Beneteau is either the national heavyweight champion of Canada in wrestling or the runner up is going to come down and train for UFC 9, and he wants to do jiu jitsu with us, and he wants to get some wrestling training. Would you be willing to wrestle with him? And I said, yeah. So he comes down, we wrestle for about two weeks.

Mark Schultz [01:44:53] Last day, I'm wrestling him, I slam him, and he broke his hand. And I took him to the doctor, and the doctor says, if we put a cast on, obviously you can't fight, but if we open you up, put a plate in, join the two bones, and cover it up, you might be able to get away with it and cover it up, and you won't even know that you're. You broke your hand. And so he said, put a plate in. So he put the plate in, and me and him, Dave and Pedro, we all went to Detroit for UFC 9. I was going to be his cornerman.

Mark Schultz [01:45:38] I thought he was going to get in trouble with that hand, so I was going to throw the towel in if he got in trouble. And at the press conference, were sitting there and somebody ratted Dave's out and said his hand was broken. And so the doctor came over to Dave and looked at his hand, and it was pretty bad. He had a big purple bump on there.

Mark Schultz [01:46:02] And the doctor said, I'm not going to let you fight. Or maybe it was Myra, the promoter. Myra said he wasn't going to let him fight. I know. But either way, he was out. He could no longer. And so my instructor, Pedro, he says to me, I know. I know who Dave's fighting, and I could beat him. I think you can beat him, too.

Mark Schultz [01:46:24] So I went over to Bob Meyerowitz, the promoter, and I said, what do you think about me taking Dave's place? And he said, and I quote, oh, that's a great idea. You're Olympic champion. When you lose, it'll be even better.

John Dehlin [01:46:45] This reminds me, Mark, this reminds me of your high school wrestling career, because you don't just walk into a professional sport, you know, with very minimal training or competition, and actually win against a professional. And. And that's exactly kind of what you did. And it. It kind of reminds me of how you, like, won the California High School State Championship having never won a tournament before. Like, what's up with that.

Mark Schultz [01:47:21] That's why I believe in God. One of the reasons I believe in God. But yeah, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I didn't know. Look, I, I, I actually feel like I had an advantage over the other fighters because I didn't just know wrestling, I knew wrestling and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, and I had combined the takedowns and the conditioning of wrestling with the submission holes of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. And just because I know these sports doesn't mean I can't punch and kick either. I can punch and kick hard, so I, I felt like I had a huge advantage over, over my opponent. So that's why I went over to promoter and asked him if he, if he could let me take Dave's place. So,

Competing in the UFC After Dave's Death

John Dehlin [01:48:19] so when you went to Detroit, you weren't planning on, on fighting?

Mark Schultz [01:48:24] No, I didn't bring anything with me. I brought a pair of shorts to just train with the Brazilians, but I didn't, that's all I brought.

John Dehlin [01:48:35] And you had never competed in any UFC official competition before, ever?

Mark Schultz [01:48:41] No, but I did fight with my heavyweight. I had this heavyweight at BYU named Mike Bolster, and kind of ironic or coincidental, Bolster means to boost. And he would come in after I started doing Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. I had, he had, he was friends with a MMA fighter named Tank Abbott, and Tank Abbott came to BYU to train at BYU with me and the wrestling team. And before then, me and Mike would, Mike would like, challenge me to fight him like every day for like three months to. When we took, we, we put gloves on, we took our shoes off, and then we, we just threw down. You know, anything goes. I mean, we didn't bite or eye gouge, but we punched and kicked and just whatever we had. And so I actually had had quite a bit of experience doing that, but I had never competed in that.

John Dehlin [01:49:47] And was that, it was UFC 9 like a tournament where you compete until you win the whole thing?

Mark Schultz [01:49:54] No, the, that was the first time they went to a, a bout card format the way it is now. But back every other UFC before that it was a tournament format, like eight man tournament format. But that didn't really work because guys were getting hurt and then people would take their place that didn't win anything. And I mean, one guy won a tournament, he only won one match the whole time he didn't and everybody else got hurt, you know, so it wasn't working.

John Dehlin [01:50:28] Okay. Because I was wondering why you didn't go on to a championship sort of thing.

Mark Schultz [01:50:33] But that's not.

John Dehlin [01:50:34] That wasn't the format.

Mark Schultz [01:50:36] Right.

John Dehlin [01:50:38] Okay.

Mark Schultz [01:50:39] Gary's really tough. He's fought all the toughest guys in the world, and he's really got a lot of guts and he's really strong. Matter of fact, he fought Paul Herrera and knocked him out with a crucifix. And Paula was Tank Abbott's best friend when. And those two came to BYU to train with me and the BYU wrestlers. Paul was training with us, and then he met my Future opponent in UFC 8 and got knocked out with a crucifixion. One of the most brutal knockouts you'll ever see on the ufc.

John Dehlin [01:51:19] Okay, so again, the guy you beat, what was his name?

Mark Schultz [01:51:23] Gary Goodrich.

John Dehlin [01:51:25] Okay, Gary Goodrich. And yeah, let's. Let's go ahead and plug another time. This, this little documentary that is. That is found on the UFC website. I just watched it. It's a 30 minute documentary. You can. I mean, we don't want to encourage people to do this, but you can literally join it, pay like 10 bucks or whatever. It's discounted to a couple bucks. You can watch it and then quit if you want to. But the, the documentary is called Wrestling Demons, Mark Schultz's Ultimate Victory, and it's on UFC Fight pass dot com. And I think one of the things that came out of that documentary that I really en was that it was.

John Dehlin [01:52:03] Was it. Well, it was tied. You know, it was tied to your brother's death and John Dupont, but it was also a form of closure in response to you having lost in 1988. Do I have that right? Anything you want to say about what that victory, that UFC victory meant for you in terms of your brother or the 1988 Olympics?

Mark Schultz [01:52:28] Yeah, it. You do got that right. I, I wanted to go out a winner. I was going to. You know, if I had won in 88, I probably would have quit wrestling and never done anything again. But because I threw that last match, I gave up my one and only chance at the time I thought, to go out of winner. So I, I didn't. I didn't get a chance to do what I wanted. And so I just.

Mark Schultz [01:53:02] So fighting and winning in UFC 9 allowed me to go out a winner. And, you know, my brother, my dupont had murdered my brother. And, you know, I mean, he couldn't have done any more to damage me psychologically, make me miserable. And what he did, I mean, it ruins my motivation to compete. Then he kills my brother. So when I went in the UFC, UFC 9 and 1 and came out a winner, I. It allowed Me to go out of winter, and I was. And I.

Mark Schultz [01:53:36] I became happy again, and I. It gave me my happiness back. And it was a miracle. Just the way all the things that had to happen to fall into place to make that happen, it was pretty miraculous. I've had so many miracles. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:53:56] So you. You referenced this before, but let's. Let's have it be in the. In the chronology. What was it like to have a BYU coach get national recognition as a UFC fighter? It's kind of a brutal, violent sport. Did you get in trouble? Did you get called on the carpet? Did. Did your job get threatened? Did you have to talk to your bishop? What happened when you got back?

Mark Schultz [01:54:25] Yes, the first thing that happened was they put a color picture of me on top of my opponent on the COVID of the Salt Lake Tribune.

John Dehlin [01:54:35] Yeah.

Mark Schultz [01:54:36] And that was. And then byu, the universe, they created a cartoon, and they said the cartoon had three characters. The one, it said the 1970s, and then it showed a picture of the Osmonds, and then they had the 1980s, and it showed a picture of Miss America, and then said 1990s ultimate fighting champion.

Mark Schultz [01:55:10] And the full cartoon character is looking at his friend, and he goes, at least it's better than the Osmonds, I guess, or something. I don't know. But anyway, then I got called on the carpet by the new BYU president, Merrill Bateman. He had just been made new president, and this guy is a hatchet man. He's cutting programs left and right and pissed a lot of people off. But he called me on the carpet and he told me, what you did by fighting in the UFC was not what we're about here at byu. And you can still keep your job as wrestling coach, but you can't keep fighting, or you can keep fighting and you can quit your job.

Mark Schultz [01:55:51] And back then, the only way you got paid was if you won. So if I was going to give up my job for a career in fighting, I would have to win every time. And the money was not that big back then.

Mark Schultz [01:56:07] I mean, I won $50,000 that night, but I. It just. And the UFC was. Was. Was. Was constantly in trouble in court. They were being called human cockfighting and excessive brutality. They were trying to shut it down or keep it off paper view. And so the promoters were having a difficult time making money until Dana White bought it and then added a bunch of rules to protect the fighters and then get the boxing commission, I think, in Nevada, to sanction it and then get it on pay per view. And now it's a Huge sport.

Mark Schultz [01:56:53] But back then, it was just like the primordial days of the ufc. You know, we. We. You know, now they're wearing gloves. You know, I didn't wear any gloves. You could kick them in the nuts. You could grab his fish hook his mouth. He could pull his ears off, break his fingers. There's all kinds of stuff you could do.

John Dehlin [01:57:19] That's violent, man. That's super violent.

Mark Schultz [01:57:22] It is.

John Dehlin [01:57:23] Yeah. Well, so what'd you. Overall. What'd you think of Meryl Bateman? And in your conversation with him?

Mark Schultz [01:57:32] It was very short. He just said, look, this is your options. Make your choice. And I chose to stay at BYU to keep my health insurance because I had three kids that needed health insurance. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:57:47] Did you marry your wife in the temple? Did you marry in the temple?

Mark Schultz [01:57:52] She got baptized, but she was not active after that.

John Dehlin [01:57:56] Okay. Okay. And you were raising your kids in. In Provo, Utah?

Mark Schultz [01:58:02] Yes. And then in Linden, Utah?

John Dehlin [01:58:05] Yeah. Okay. All right. So you stayed at BYU another five or so years. And anything else you want to say about your time coaching at byu? Before we talk about what came after, Let me ask you this. Did. Did the church ever, you know how, like, in the church news or on the church website or whatever the church likes to. To celebrate and, you know, use its celebrities for PR reasons, whether it's the Osmonds or David Archuleta or Steve Young, Sean Bradley, Ty Detmer, like, any chance the Mormon Church can get. Just like Scientology, they want to put its celebrities up front. Even Peter Vidmar, you know, want to put its celebrities up front to help improve the image of the church. Did the Mormon Church ever sort of celebrate you, put you forward, put you on the COVID of the church news, try and use you for their. For their positive priority?

Mark Schultz [01:59:13] No, I don't think I was the type that they wanted to promote or be associated with. I was too much of a Neanderthal. I think that's what they thought.

John Dehlin [01:59:27] Well, did that make you feel sad? Did that make you feel bad?

Mark Schultz [01:59:32] I didn't care. I didn't care. Okay.

BYU Drops the Wrestling Program

John Dehlin [01:59:38] All right. All right. Well, so. So do you want to talk about finding out that the program was canceled and. And how you found out and. And what that was like?

Mark Schultz [01:59:52] Yeah, we were. I was in the wrestling room with my team, and the athletic director came up with the guy who was like, the assistant. Two of his assistant athletic directors came up with him. So the three of them are standing there in front of us, and we're sitting on the benches, you know, and he tells us that they're cutting the wrestling program and this will be our last year. And I just couldn't believe it because our athletic director was an All American wrestler. And I just never thought in a million years. Plus I had like done some research on Joseph Smith and his wrestling career and I actually submitted his name to the National Wrestling hall of Fame to be inducted as an outstanding American. Thank God he never got in. God.

John Dehlin [02:00:47] You submitted Joseph Smith's name to, to be admitted into the Wrestling hall of Fame. Did I get that right?

Mark Schultz [02:00:54] Yeah. The National Wrestling hall of Fame has a category called Outstanding Americans. And basically it's a category reserved for people that are outstanding Americans known in their fields and known as wrestlers. Doesn't matter if they're good or not, it's just they're known as wrestlers, but they're public figures or celebrities or something. And that's made the National Wrestling hall of Fame banquet a lot more interesting. And back when they, when they added that category, and that's the category, I submitted Joseph's name, but I recently just. He never got inducted. And I told Leroy Smith, the executive director, to take Joseph out of that, out of contention for that, that induction. And it was based primarily on the fact that he built the largest city in Illinois. It wasn't based on his religion. The religion, though, I think is probably what kept him out of it. That's why he never got in it.

John Dehlin [02:02:01] Well, he did. He didn't. He didn't get in. And now you're, you're glad.

Mark Schultz [02:02:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:02:05] Okay. He did that like leg pulling thing, right? Isn't that what he did? Some type of stick pulling kind of thing?

Mark Schultz [02:02:13] Well, back then it was they. The pioneer style of wrestling. They called it catches catch can. And what they did was they drew a circle in the dirt and the object was to throw your opponent out of the circle and off of his feet. It was kind of a little bit like sumo, I guess. I've never done it or seen it done, but that's what I read some of the literature at the time.

John Dehlin [02:02:44] Did that, did learning about Joseph Smith, stick pulling or whatever, did it make you feel closer to Joseph Smith, like you both were kind of wrestlers?

Mark Schultz [02:02:51] Yeah, kind of, sort of, kind of. But you know, the difference is, did I ever tell you, oh, this I'm gonna blow your mind right now. I've got a letter in the mail from what I. What from Is written in the first person from my brother Dave, the three page letter. I've got it sitting in my file right behind me.

Mark Schultz [02:03:20] And I found out later it was written by a member of the church in my ward. And I don't know why he did this, but he wrote a three page letter in the first person, in the voice of my brother, talking to me about what life is like in the afterlife. And he's telling me he met Gordon B. Hinckley and Joseph Smith as a great love for others. I'm thinking, wait a minute, this is a three page letter from my brother on the other side. My brother's dead. This guy, he sends me this letter. The return envelope has got your brother on the. On the return address.

Mark Schultz [02:04:05] No, nothing else. I. And I read it and it's. And part of. Part of the letter says Joseph really was a good wrestler or a great wrestler or something like that. He could have given you and I a decent go. I've met Joseph. He's. I don't know. I. You want me to read it? I can get it. It's right behind me.

John Dehlin [02:04:33] Yeah, sure, but, I mean, I'm just. I'm just kind of blown away. While you're grabbing the letter, let me just make sure I understand. You're saying that a member of your ward forged the. Let. Forged a letter from your dead brother as if he was your dead brother, writing you. As if your dead brother was. Was writing you from heaven to tell you about his experiences in heaven with God and Jesus. Is that. Is that what you're saying?

Mark Schultz [02:05:10] That's right. And.

John Dehlin [02:05:12] And was he trying to fool you into believing more seriously in heaven? Was it. Was it a joke? Like, why would a Mormon member of your ward forge a letter on behalf of your dead brother and send it to you? What. What would. What would his motives have been?

Mark Schultz [02:05:34] Look, this is. This is it. Three page letter from my brother written in the first person. And you know, there's a lot of references to LDS stuff in this letter. And I finally found out who the person was. I'm not going to say their name, but I don't embarrass you, but I. I don't know why he would do something like. Maybe he thought I was. I was mourning my brother's death. I don't know what he was thinking,

A Letter Purportedly From His Late Brother

John Dehlin [02:06:08] but the good reason record. Read the letter.

Mark Schultz [02:06:12] It says. Okay. My dear brother Mark, I have been trying to reach out to you for some time now. I think that you have been under the pressure of so much anger, pain and frustration that you have not been able to feel or sense my attempts to reach you. Look, brother, you need to know something about me. I am in a place that I cannot even begin to describe to you in earthly terms because it is. Because it is magnificent beyond anything that you've ever seen. When I first arrived here, I was completely overwhelmed by the incredible combination of visual and sensory beauty. Some of our brothers and sisters that have had the responsibility to, quote, return you call them near death experiences have attempted to describe what it is like here.

Mark Schultz [02:06:59] But I can tell you this, there is no way to describe it. Let me sum this place up by saying there is really no reason to fear death at all. Someday soon you will know for yourself what I'm talking about. Those things that you have learned in the LDS Church are true. Well, most of them anyway, because people on Earth have some crazy ideas sometimes. In fact, Joseph really was a prophet.

Mark Schultz [02:07:30] I have met him and he is a great guy with an incredible love for others. There have been literally thousands of prophets down through the ages of man. Some have been recorded in earthly literature and some were simply prophets in their own dispensation or period of time. Funny thing about time. It may seem like a long time since you have seen me, but really, it was only moments ago that John put an end to my earthly life. More about that in a moment. Pardon the play on words.

Mark Schultz [02:08:05] And yes, most religions have very true elements. It was Father's plan that there would be many philosophical paths as it is impossible for any earthly religion to contain all truth at one time on the earth. That is why the teachers or prophets within the LDS church have talked about the fullness of the gospel and have not used the terms complete or quote all of the truth.

Mark Schultz [02:08:34] I tell you, Mark, it is a testament to Father's love for his children that elements of his truth are scattered throughout the earth. Gordon really understands this principle. Well, he, you know, Gordon B. Hinckley, your prior church president.

Mark Schultz [02:08:49] And he and I have spoken about you and the difficult path that you have been called to walk in life. By the way, those stories you have probably read about Joseph's physical prowess are also true. He could have given you and I a decent go on the mat. That's how I knew it's fake.

John Dehlin [02:09:14] Now say that again.

Mark Schultz [02:09:18] You want from the letter or from what I said?

John Dehlin [02:09:20] Just that last part that made you know that it was fake.

Mark Schultz [02:09:24] He said, Joseph could have given you and I a decent go on the map.

John Dehlin [02:09:32] And that was your competitive nature said, no way.

Mark Schultz [02:09:35] Right? It's. It's reality. There's no way some frontier guy is gonna beat an Olympic champion wrestler and not even close.

John Dehlin [02:09:48] And your brother, your brother, your brother would have known that. More than anyone. So there's no way.

Mark Schultz [02:09:54] That's right.

John Dehlin [02:09:55] Your dead brother would have told you after meeting dead Joseph Smith, that dead Joseph Smith could have beat you in wrestling.

Mark Schultz [02:10:04] That was the only thing about this letter that I had a question about. Because the rest of the letter, I. I didn't. It wasn't until I left the church that I knew this letter was fake. Because now you want me to keep reading.

John Dehlin [02:10:21] Okay, yeah, I do. I do. I do. Keep reading. Yeah, keep reading.

Mark Schultz [02:10:25] Okay. Now, about us. First, I want you to know that you have nothing to worry about with regards to me. I am surrounded by the most incredible brothers and sisters. And the emotional state of being here is so love filled that there is not anything earthly that in any way compares to being here. So when I want to request something really difficult from you, I want you to let go of me. No, I do not want you to forget me. But I want you to know that you do not need to, quote, keep my memory alive because I am eternal. You got that? I am forever.

Mark Schultz [02:10:58] And my memory will never diminish because I am only increasing. I want you to begin today, to live for today and for yourself. Mark, you are beautiful. I love you with every part of my heavenly self. And Father loves you. And this is the incredible part, Mark. Jesus, our Savior, brother, he loves you so very much. He has a special place in his heart for you because he feels that you remind him of his apostle Peter.

Mark Schultz [02:11:34] He sometimes smile when Jesus refers to you as one of his, quote, sons of thunder. And you are already forgiven for your sins. Forgiveness is the most indescribable experience. Mark, When I first arrived and had my life review, there were so many things that I had forgotten that I was ashamed of. Especially when it related to you, mom, dad, and my precious wife and children. Yet when the Savior met me and reached out and touched my cheek, the shame faded away in an instant. And I felt this love. Love is the only earthly word that comes close to describing the feelings that completely purged all my feelings of guilt and shame.

Mark Schultz [02:12:12] Now I only feel happiness, joy and peace beyond anything you can understand. During your earthly life, Mark, one of the greatest joys is watching other brothers and sisters arrive, meet their families, have their life reviews, you call it judgment, and then have their moments with Jesus. Every time I witness another person touched by the Savior, I experience the same incredible joy all over again. What you call the atonement really does complete until we come home and spend time with the Savior. That is when we know how magnificent it all truly turns Out. And you should see the atheists and non believers. It is especially joy filled to see their expressions of surprise and gratitude as so many live out their lives on earth so at a loss for faith and hope.

Mark Schultz [02:12:55] There are a couple things that I would like you to know. First, thank you for being such a beautiful man. In the midst of so much sorrow, you can now let go of the sorrow. I have forgiven John and Mark. He was more sick and twisted that you are. I could even imagine. He has been healed now and I love him as my brother and I know that may seem hard to believe because you would like to see him punished for what he did to me, to Nancy, Danny, Alex, and to you. What I want you to know is that he suffered in ways that you and I cannot even understand.

Mark Schultz [02:13:30] When you get over here, you will instantly begin to understand what I am alluding to. But for now, please take my word for it. Someday you will forgive John too, but you will need Jesus's help to pull it off. Trust me on that. One second. I know that you were stronger than me, even though I like to make you think otherwise. There are some things that an older brother that just does not want to let go of. But that is part of why you are still there and I am here. Father knew that you would be strong enough to walk the difficult path that you have endured.

Mark Schultz [02:14:04] Now, Father, Jesus, Gordon, and our relatives that are here with me, we all want you to live for your future. Study the scripture that Jesus left in Luke, chapter 9, verse 62. And Jesus said unto him, no man having put his hand to the plow and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

Mark Schultz [02:14:23] Stop focusing on what has already happened. Brother, you need to be the best father and grandfather to your children and mine. They need the man you are today. They do not have me. They have you. And they need you to step up. And as long as you are looking back at me, they do not have you. Trust in this message. It has come through an earthly man who could sit at a terminal and type this letter for me. I am working through him to deliver a message in the only way you will receive it.

Mark Schultz [02:14:55] Finally, thank you for reaching out to me with your message about your gospel. And I want you to know that I have learned and accepted all of it. I hate to say it because you will think I am acting like your bossy big brother again, but from where I am now, I actually know a few things. Actually a lot of things that you do not know about the Gospel or Father's love. As we Describe it here.

Mark Schultz [02:15:16] Your time seems long, but it is literally just moments in eternity. Your apostle Neil Maxwell said it several times when he was with you. There are no clocks in eternity. And it is true, my beautiful baby brother. You and I, we are forever. And the power of grace and forgiveness cannot be fully appreciated until you are here experiencing it for yourself. I want you to quit worrying about who makes it and who does not get in. You will be happy to find out that Father plans on seeing all of us back here with him and our Savior. That is what is so very, very cool about Father's plan.

Mark Schultz [02:15:59] It is the truth. It is Father's love. And I promise you, Marky, he loves you completely. So, so much. I love you, brother. So until you join me, get off that sore, beat up, bruised backside of yours. I could use another set of vocabulary that we both know, but it does not seem fitting here. And get busy living the rest of your life and be happy for every father's sake and mine. Love earthly big brother Davey.

John Dehlin [02:16:25] Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. I have so many questions I want to ask Mark. I think the first question I want to ask is, I, I guess this is a two part question. Number one is, how did that letter make you feel? And then the second part is, did you believe it, that it came from your brother? And then I've got a bunch more questions. So first of all, how did it make you feel?

Mark Schultz [02:16:52] Well, I was skeptical. I didn't, I don't believe anything unless, you know, I have something to back it up, you know, and so I had never, like, I, I, I, I, I read it to a lot of my friends and family members and stuff and asked them for their opinion. And I never really formed an opinion about whether it was a hoax or not until I left the church.

John Dehlin [02:17:18] Okay. So yeah, let's, we'll come back to that. But so you were kind of ambivalent about whether or not you were going to believe that letter was from your brother or not. You weren't. You were skeptical, but you were open. Is that fair to say?

Mark Schultz [02:17:34] Yeah, I guess.

John Dehlin [02:17:36] Wow. Okay. And then how did it make you feel when you read it? Were you happy? Were you sad? Were you confused?

Mark Schultz [02:17:45] Confusing, because I didn't know whether it was a hoax or, or genuine.

John Dehlin [02:17:52] Yeah, yeah. And if it was true, I guess part of you would want to believe that your brother was alive and was reaching out to you, right?

Mark Schultz [02:18:02] Absolutely. I mean, the, the I, you know, he flatters me in the letter. He says, here's the amazing part, Mark. Jesus himself has a special place in his heart for just you. I'm like, well, that makes sense because I'm Mark Schultz, Right? No kidding. No, but that's how he's appealing to me, through flattery. And that's how Joseph appealed to a lot of people. Flattery will get you everywhere. And I just didn't really. I mean, how could a three page letter come to me from heaven? I mean, if I was going to receive something from heaven, it might have been one word shouted out from the ceiling or maybe an appearance of somebody for one second. Not a three page letter with 5,000 words. But I, I did hope it kind of was true. I mean, you know, in my fictional mind, you know, I didn't give it much thought. I didn't take it that serious.

John Dehlin [02:19:06] Yeah, well, that's, that's, that's interesting. I was gonna say there, there's a funny comment from one of our viewers or listeners. Leston Buell writes, does this count as pseudepigrapha? And, and I know you're relatively new to kind of studying more mature truth claims, but the term.

Mark Schultz [02:19:26] I know it, I know. Pseudepigrapha.

John Dehlin [02:19:29] Okay.

Mark Schultz [02:19:29] Yeah. So it's automatic writing.

John Dehlin [02:19:32] Well, no, it's. It's basically somebody writing as if they're a historical figure who is dead.

Mark Schultz [02:19:39] Oh.

John Dehlin [02:19:40] Or who is in the past because it gives the letter more or the scripture more credibility. So some say that Smith wrote that. Richard Bushman, Mormons. Joseph Smith, scholar Richard Bushman is basically on record saying that when Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Abraham, maybe it was an example of pseudepigrapha. Joseph had things to say, but if he just said it, it wouldn't be as meaningful. So he wrote the things he wanted to say as if he were Abraham, claimed that he translated the papyrus, and in that way people would pay more attention. Pay more attention and give more credence to, to, to, to what they had to say.

John Dehlin [02:20:22] This guy, maybe he wanted, I mean, it seems like he was worried about your testimony. It seems like he was worried about your faith. And so he figured if he wrote in the name of your brother as if he were your brother, maybe you would believe more what, what he wanted you to think and feel and believe. And in that sense, it was pseudepigrapha. What do you think about that?

Mark Schultz [02:20:47] It's a complicated subject because the guy that did this, I'm sure had the best intentions, but doing something like this is actually a malicious act. Lying is a malicious act. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:21:05] That's horrific. Like it's super. It's super. It's super dishonest and it's super manipulative. And it's just really weird that a believing Mormon would. Would for religious motivations lie in such an offensive and manipulative way. It's. It's hard to wrap my brain around. Because he had religious motives, right?

Mark Schultz [02:21:30] Yeah. And I think he also had motive of wanting to associate with. With me for some, because, you know, I am. I think there's a group of people out there that my. My best friend is. He has a lot of connections in the NFL, and there's a group of people out there he calls jock sniffers. And what they do is they do anything they can just to have any contact with any great athlete that they can. They can have contact with. And I think that might have been a part of. Possibly part of his motivation. I'm not sure. Oh, I. I don't know.

John Dehlin [02:22:21] I mean, did you ever, I guess at the time, did you ever tell anyone that you got this letter? And would you ever. Would you have told this guy who wrote the letter not knowing that he had wrote it? Would you have told him that you received this letter?

Mark Schultz [02:22:38] Actually, what happened was I went to church with the intention of trying to find the person that wrote it, and I put it in my pocket. I went to church, and the first person I ran into goes, hey, Mark, how's it going? I can't talk to you right now. I'm going to deliver a message. Message to the state president. I said, oh, really? Well, funny you talk about delivering a message because I just received a message and I pulled it out of my pocket and I read the one paragraph that said, trust in this message, for it has come to you through an earthly man who could sit at a terminal and write this for me.

Mark Schultz [02:23:17] I'm using him to get a message to you and the only way you will receive it. And then I said, let you read the whole letter after sacrament. And so we went to Sacrament, and then I let him read it in the basketball gym. And he took a really long time. And then at the end of it, he goes, let's go outside.

Mark Schultz [02:23:37] So we went outside and he goes, mark, I was running the other day and I wasn't thinking about you or anything. And then all of a sudden I received this revelation or this prompting, and I knew I had to go home and write this letter. So I did. I sent it to you. I deleted it off my computer because I knew it was only for you. I'm the guy that wrote the letter. And I'm like, what are the chances the very first guy I run into is the guy I'm looking for, you know? So I was, like, looking up at heaven going, oh, my God.

Mark Schultz [02:24:14] This is like another, you know, amazing coincidence, you know? And, you know, I've always say coincidence is how God talks to us on earth, you know? So I'm thinking, this is a coincidence. And then I start to get to know him, and I went out and had lunch with him a couple times, and he's a really nice guy. He's just. I think he's. He's. He's been indoctrinated too. Too much. Just. I don't know.

John Dehlin [02:24:49] I mean, so. So you kind of knew who. Who it probably was?

Mark Schultz [02:24:54] No, no, not until he admitted it. I didn't know.

John Dehlin [02:24:57] Oh, okay.

Mark Schultz [02:24:58] Tried. I tried to find out who it was a couple times and. Oh, I had some. Yeah, A couple people in church were helping me and everybody. I asked the bishop and. And a couple other people and. But, Yeah, I just. But when I went looking for the guy to really to. To look. When I went looking for the guy that I didn't. I. I wasn't. I wasn't trying to determine who it was. I was trying to look for the guy that did it. And then I found it. The very first guy I met was the guy that did it. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:25:38] So. So I guess I. Do you believe that he believed he was truly channeling your brother through revelation? I mean, because a Mormon that believes in Joseph Smith and, you know, Fe Stones in a hat and the Book of Abraham catalyst theory or whatever could just as easily believe that he had the power to. To channel revelation. A lot of people are making jokes asking if his name was Chad Daybell. You know, like, do you think this guy believe. Was just lying to you, or do you think he believed he was channeling your brother when he wrote the letter?

Mark Schultz [02:26:24] I. I can't speak to the. I can't get inside the mind of another person. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:26:35] Okay, so when he told you he.

Mark Schultz [02:26:37] What year it was sent? 2015. August 7th.

John Dehlin [02:26:43] So that was seven. That was seven years ago. So when he told you he had done it, what did you think and feel when you found out who had written the letter?

Mark Schultz [02:26:53] I questioned him. I asked him, you remember this part? This part? This part? And he said, well, I kind of remember this a little bit. Not that much. And, you know, it's kind of all a blur.

John Dehlin [02:27:07] Yeah. Interesting. Well, that's a fascinating story. Thanks for sharing it.

Mark Schultz [02:27:13] You bet.

John Dehlin [02:27:14] Okay, so. So you, you. Your time at BYU ended what year?

Mark Schultz [02:27:21] 2000.

John Dehlin [02:27:22] Okay, so what did you do for the. For the next 20 years, professionally, once you stopped coaching at BYU?

Mark Schultz [02:27:33] Well, I was thrown into a terrible divorce and custody battle for years. I lost almost everything I ever worked for. And then I became a. An estimator at USA Masonry, a masonry contracting company. And then I, I moved to Fresno and we were managing apartments, and then I moved to Oregon, and. Oh, yeah, I made the movie and I wrote the book, you know, and I started doing seminars just.

John Dehlin [02:28:17] So you left. I guess you left Utah around what year did you leave Utah?

Mark Schultz [02:28:23] I'd say 2000. Four, maybe. I don't know. Is the, the justice system in Utah is totally anti male. They treated me like. Like dog. And I just couldn't. I couldn't deal with it. I. I was being alienated from my kids. I was being robbed by lawyers, and I just said, you know what? I'll come back later, and I left. I had to get away from them or they were going to keep persecuting me. No, that's what I did.

John Dehlin [02:28:59] Okay. And. And so it would have been. I guess. So you had various jobs, and then you ended up deciding to write your memoir. I'm curious, what. What led to the resurgence and what led to the movie? Because not everybody. Not. Not everybody's life is featured in a movie that includes Mark Ruffalo Channel Tating or Tatum Chan. I don't. Channing Channing Tatum and. And freaking Steve Carell. So how do you explain. Well, tell us about writing your book and then tell us about the, the movie. Anything you want to say about it? Kind of. What led to the resurgence in interest, what, 20 years later after your brother died?

Mark Schultz [02:29:48] Yeah, I wrote that, that, that book in about two weeks. Right. In 1996, as soon as I got back from the UFC. And I didn't do anything with it except sell my life rights to different people that would try to get it produced. And it took 18 years from the time I wrote it to the time that it was turned into a movie and a New York Times bestseller. So, you know, it. It wasn't like I was. I. What was the question?

John Dehlin [02:30:34] Well, okay, so if you wrote the book, you know, right after you won the UFC championship In, in what, 1996, is that right?

Mark Schultz [02:30:45] That's right.

John Dehlin [02:30:47] But the, but the book, it. But book didn't come out till 2014 or 15, right around the same time that the, that the Hollywood movie came out, right? What. Why was it so, why did it take so long for the book to come out in the movie to come out?

Mark Schultz [02:31:08] We just couldn't find anybody that wanted to. To turn it into a movie or publish the book. But once the movie was made, publishers. Penguin Books, the biggest publisher in the world, came out and wanted to publish it.

John Dehlin [02:31:29] Okay, so the. So the movie. The movie got made, and the success of the movie made a publisher want to publish your book.

Mark Schultz [02:31:37] Is that right? That's right.

John Dehlin [02:31:39] Okay, and what was. So what was the. Like, you know, there's a photo of you that we included in the thumbnail of you and Mark Ruffalo and Channing Tatum and. And Steve Carell, all in a photo. I can pull that up. But what was it like to have your. After kind of fading into obscurity after leaving BYU in Utah, you know, after having your line and. And divorces, you know, after having kind of things go south. South? What was it like all of a sudden, 10 or 20 years later to, like, have a movie be made about you and your brother and then also to. To have a. A book end up on the New York Times? That's kind of like probably many dark years followed by some incredible highs. What. What was that like?

The Foxcatcher Book and Film

Mark Schultz [02:32:36] Yeah, I. It. Making. Making. Making that movie was. Was not that great. I don't. I don't really like that movie. I don't like. The story is changed too much. The director changed my story. My story exists in my New York Times bestseller. He took my story and changed it into his story. And if you can't really follow it, make that. It doesn't make any sense. But I did like the fact that People magazine, Sexiest Man Alive, played me, because, of course, that's the only person they could find. But other than that, I didn't like it. But it did serve as a platform to get word out about my. My autobiography. A lot of people think my. Think my book Foxcatcher is a true crime. It's not. It's my autobiography. I have people all the time going, mark's all about me, me, me. I'm like, it's my autobiography.

John Dehlin [02:33:49] Yeah, that's. That's. That's dumb criticism. I think I read somewhere that your brother, your late brother Dave's wife, like, approved the movie or something to that effect. Is that true? Not true.

Mark Schultz [02:34:05] Yeah. She said it was very close to the truth. She became friends with the director. I became enemies.

John Dehlin [02:34:13] Yeah.

Mark Schultz [02:34:13] I mean, I. I attacked him viciously on Twitter, but.

John Dehlin [02:34:18] But I guess there. There was a sense that you were. You were ambivalent. That you, you know about the movie that in some ways you liked it, but in some ways you didn't. And even that you were excited about the movie up until it was released and even after. And so I, you know, I'm imagining that you were happy the movie was being made, happy that the story was being, you know, given some sunlight, but then just maybe frustrated with how it all you all got portrayed is that,

Mark Schultz [02:34:47] yeah, I mean, this, this is my first time, you know, do anything like this. So I had no experience and I trusted the wrong people. And it was, it was a mixed bag. You know, it was like, it was great that Channing Tatum was playing me, but it was terrible that the direct that I had this director that was so, you know, intent on disrespecting and demeaning me, and I, I just, I, I thought, well, you know, it, it was, it's hard for me to explain because it's such a mixed bag.

John Dehlin [02:35:29] Yeah, that makes sense. And so what was the reception on. On your book and what was that like? Like few people. Holy moly, Mark, you've got an Olympic gold medal, several world wrestling championships, a UFC victory, a movie made about you, and then a New York Times bestseller. Like, you're a super hyper achiever, brother. What was that like to have a New York Times bestseller?

Mark Schultz [02:35:57] Oh, I loved it. You know, lifted it my story up to, you know, this a higher status, which is where I wanted it to be. And it. Not only is it a New York Times bestseller, but it's an Amazon editor's pick, which means they've read it, they like it, and it's also the best selling amateur wrestling book on Amazon.

John Dehlin [02:36:27] Yeah. Okay. And did you, like, do a book tour where you traveled around and, and went to bookstores and signed copies of the book and met. Met readers of the book and all that stuff?

Mark Schultz [02:36:39] Yeah, I did that for a little while when the book and the movie was first released. And. But then, you know, the, the, you know, the, that, that, that, that doesn't last forever. And you know, people, you know, they move on it. That's. But it was, it was, it was great, you know, to, to, you know, the problem with nobody reads anymore. So everybody's watching movies, they're watching, you know, this fight lore episode, but nobody's reading my book. And just because people don't read like they used to. And so when I would go give like a speech somewhere, let's. I'd ask the audience, how many of you have seen the movie? You know, half the hands go up. How Many have read the book. 1. Two hands might go up.

John Dehlin [02:37:37] Oh, that's frustrating. Was there an audio version of the book, or was it just a print version of the book?

Mark Schultz [02:37:43] There's an audio version you know, too.

John Dehlin [02:37:46] Did you. Did you read the audio? Did you narrate the audio?

Mark Schultz [02:37:50] No, I'm not the narrator.

John Dehlin [02:37:53] Okay. Okay. Well, so I. You don't have to answer this question, but I feel like I want to ask it. Did you. Were you able to receive any monetary compensation either for the movie or did you make any decent money on the book? Or like. Like I misunderstood with the Olympics. Those two types of things that you would think lead to fame and fortune. A Hollywood movie and a New York Times bestseller. Did they leave you in the same financial state you were before?

Mark Schultz [02:38:25] No, I made. I made a lot of money on selling my life rights, my film life rights. I carved out my literary rights and kept those for myself, and then I sold them to Penguin. But I made a lot of money selling my. My film rights to Annapurna and my. My literary rights to Penguin.

John Dehlin [02:38:46] Okay, well, that makes me happy for your life that you finally. Because I imagine you were struggling financially, you know, between your BYU years in 2014 and 2015.

Mark Schultz [02:38:59] Yes, tremendously. You wouldn't believe it.

John Dehlin [02:39:04] Yeah.

Mark Schultz [02:39:05] I mean, what. What the. The justice system did to me is. It's a crime. They kicked me out of my house. Nope. No possessions. Out onto the street. You know, it's amazing what you can do.

John Dehlin [02:39:26] I'm so sorry. So sorry that happened. And I'm glad that. That 2014, 2015 happened, like, makes me happy.

Mark Schultz [02:39:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:39:37] So during all that time, from leaving BYU till even after the movie, in the book, what was your relationship with the church? Did you go inactive? Did you stay faithful for all that time?

Mark Schultz [02:39:49] I stayed faithful. I went to church. I'd say maybe half the time, maybe. And call myself. I just thought I should. I just went myself. I didn't bring anybody with me. I. I just did it just because being around other people is better than being alone. I. The social aspect of the church is a benefit, you know?

John Dehlin [02:40:24] Yeah. Okay, so you. So was there a big letdown after the. The movie in the book happened where you had to come back down to earth and just become a normal citizen again?

Mark Schultz [02:40:41] Or were you able now, I.

John Dehlin [02:40:43] Able to parlay the book in the movie into kind of a new type of career or set of careers?

Mark Schultz [02:40:52] Yeah, I mean, yeah. I don't know. I. The book, in the movie, it was separate, you know, but it. It did bring in some money. Allowed me some freedom and some time and it, but, and, and gave me a lot of publicity. Some of it I didn't like, but some of it I did. And a lot of people, when, when I got to know what other people really thought about the movie, I didn't sweat it so much. I, People calling me, hey, I saw the movie, it's great. I'm like, I'm glad you like it. I don't really like it, but glad you do. And I just, I just quit sweating about it and just realized, you know, that people don't really care about anything that's going on in the world.

Mark Schultz [02:41:54] All they really care about is what's going inside between their ears. That's their world. So if they're not living in my world, it doesn't really affect them. They don't affect me.

John Dehlin [02:42:07] Okay, so what, what did you end up doing career wise between 2015 and, and now? What'd you, what'd you do for career?

Mark Schultz [02:42:19] I would do wrestling camps, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu camps. I do like corporate speaking engagements. There's a speech on, if you type in Mark Schultz speech, you'll come up with this speech I did in, I think around 2015 or something. It was on. It's the only one I've managed to capture on film. But I, I spoke for Kepler speakers for a while and. Yeah, that's it. That's, that's, that's what I did.

Losing Faith and Leaving the Church

John Dehlin [02:43:01] Okay, well, let's just. So. So as of a few months ago, you were still a believing, devout member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Right? Should we talk about.

Mark Schultz [02:43:14] That's right.

John Dehlin [02:43:15] How in the world Mark Schultz lost his faith in 2022?

Mark Schultz [02:43:21] Yeah, sure, I'll tell you.

John Dehlin [02:43:24] Okay.

Mark Schultz [02:43:26] I, I have a friend, my best friend actually, who will remain nameless, but he got the West Nile virus and he had a near death experience and he went to the void and scared the hell out of him. And he, when he got out, he read the Bible like crazy. And I had always been thinking, I hope he comes back to the church because his whole family's members and you know, he's, he's got a lot of generations going back as members and I thought he needs to get back into the church. Well, he comes back from this, from the void and all he reads is the Bible. And finally one day I just asked him, why don't you read the Book of Mormon? And he said, why? I go, well, scripture, right, like the Bible. He goes, yeah, but it's not true. And that floored me.

John Dehlin [02:44:29] Now, was that this year? Was that this year in 20. 2022?

Mark Schultz [02:44:33] Yeah, three months ago.

John Dehlin [02:44:35] Oh, wow. Okay. Okay, so wait. Prior to three months ago, had you ever heard of the CES Letter? Had you ever heard of Mormon Stories podcast? Had you ever heard of any of the problems with church history? And if so, how did you deal with it before three months ago when you heard about problems with Joseph Smith of the church?

Mark Schultz [02:44:57] Well, I. I didn't. I. I vaguely recognized you, but I knew you were anti Mormon, so I didn't think I could. I don't know. I should. I should listen to you or anything or. I never heard of the CES letters. I never heard of any problems with the Scriptures, the Book of Abraham, the Kinderhook Plates, Fawn Brody view, the Hebrews. No man knows my history. You know, the First War, Napoleon.

John Dehlin [02:45:35] Like, I am just. I just have to say I am stunned that you're, like an. An international athlete celebrity, you're an intelligent guy, and, and it's 2022, and in all of your. And you've been Mormon since 1991.

Mark Schultz [02:45:57] That's right.

John Dehlin [02:45:58] And in all that time, the Mormon Church was able to enculturate you in a way where you would have never heard about CES Letter, Joseph Smith's polygamy and polyandry, like the Book of Abraham problems, the CES Letter, any of the problematic podcasts out there. I am stunned that you were in such a bubble that. That through mid-2022, you had no exposure to the criticisms of the Mormon Church's truth claims. I. I'm stunned.

Mark Schultz [02:46:37] Well, I had no reason to question their truth claims. I was, you know, fat, dumb, and happy. I didn't. Didn't look for, you know, anything behind the. The, you know, the curtain. You know, I, you know, like the wizard of Oz curtain. I just had no reason to search for anything like that. But when my best friend told me that the church has a doctrine that says unless you get married in an LDS temple, you lose your kids in the afterlife, and I was stunned when he told me that. I was like, there's. This can't be true. He goes, yeah, it is. And I searched for it. I found DNC132, and I read it meticulously and consumed it very carefully, and I saw the. The dark side of that doctrine, and I was out like that.

John Dehlin [02:47:41] Okay, so you're saying reading Doctrine and Covenants, Section 132, which Mormons like to refer to as the new and everlasting Covenant. I like to refer to it as Joseph Smith's polygamy revelation that he published years after he had already started practicing polygamy. You're saying Mormon scripture, actually reading Mormon scripture cause you to lose your faith in Mormonism?

Mark Schultz [02:48:05] That's right. I read it very carefully. I saw the dark side of it and I could not believe it. It was what's what.

John Dehlin [02:48:14] I'm just. This is going to sound ridiculous, but what's not to love about DNC132?

Mark Schultz [02:48:21] Well, you know this better than anybody.

John Dehlin [02:48:23] What's that?

Mark Schultz [02:48:24] You know this better than anybody.

John Dehlin [02:48:26] Well, for those who are, who've never been Mormon, who haven't listened to our multiple episodes on DNC 132, including with Mike of LDS discussions and including those with Sandra Tanner. I'll ask Maven to include those in the show notes. But can you, can you share anything that you found particularly offensive or repugnant about?

Mark Schultz [02:48:49] Absolutely, yeah. Oh, man. If you don't get married in an LDS temple, not only do you lose the kids that God gave you on this earth, no matter how bad or how much you love them and how much they love you, you're going into eternity as a single ministering servant angel, never to increase, never to get married, never to have a family and serve those who have been sealed in LDS temples. That makes no sense.

John Dehlin [02:49:34] And I guess having been threatened with estrangement from your own kids in, in the US legal system, I imagine that is probably going to touch your heartstrings in a particularly forceful way. Is that fair to say?

Mark Schultz [02:49:51] Yes, Absolutely. All right. And I, I even went in front of my entire church and I, I even, I, I, you know what? I'm, I started asking around in my church. I'm like, how can you guys believe this? Look at what it says. And you know, my answer was, you know what? The answer I got most of all, don't worry about it. And some people even told me, oh, you're not being sealed to your spouse in the temple, you're being sealed to Jesus. Like, I never heard that. My best friend has been a member his whole life. Never heard that. He's just making up.

John Dehlin [02:50:36] So I have to ask, like, did it bother you that the Jesus Mormon, Jesus was threatening to kill Emma if she didn't let Joseph have extra wife. Did that bother you at all?

Mark Schultz [02:50:49] Now that I could accept.

John Dehlin [02:50:51] Well, what. Wait a minute. Are you joking? I hope you're joking.

Mark Schultz [02:50:54] I'm kidding.

John Dehlin [02:50:55] Okay. Did, did that, did that bother you or the fact that Joseph was told that he, you know, that he could marry as many virgins, that Mormon Jesus told Joseph Smith that he could marry as many virgins as he wanted to. Did that bother you?

Mark Schultz [02:51:10] Well, that. No. The, the thing that bothered me was losing your kids and becoming a servant, ministering angel to these idiots that go through the temple. These guys are going to be my, my superiors in some stratified form of heaven in the afterlife simply because they went into some building and said some words and wore some clothes. There's no way that's happening.

John Dehlin [02:51:42] Well, you are literally the first ex Mormon I've ever talked to who wasn't bothered by the actual polygamy in DNC132, but instead were bothered by, I guess, the, the model of heaven in the afterlife. This is a first for me.

Mark Schultz [02:52:00] No, I think polygamy. There's nothing wrong with polygamy. If consenting adults can get married of the same sex, why can't consenting adults marry whoever they want? Why, why not? What, what's wrong with polygamy? What? The problem with polygamy is Joseph Smith going after 14 year olds when he's 37.

John Dehlin [02:52:25] Yeah, well, so yeah, I agree that

Mark Schultz [02:52:29] that's the other men's wives. That's not polygamy. That's polyandry.

John Dehlin [02:52:34] Say that again.

Mark Schultz [02:52:36] That's not polygamy. That's polyandry marrying other men's wives.

John Dehlin [02:52:39] Okay, so you don't like that Joseph Smith married 14 year olds and, and teenage girls and you don't like that he married other men's wives. That's a problem for you? Is that, is that what you're saying?

Mark Schultz [02:52:51] Yeah. But to take a beautiful 14 year old girl and violate her and you're 37 years old, that, that needs. That, that, that cannot exist.

John Dehlin [02:53:05] And Mark, I don't, I don't want to, you know, argue or challenge you really, because that's not my style. I do want to say for me, there's a structural problem with DNC132. It's not so much the problem is, you know, like consenting adults do whatever consenting adults do. It's the fact that it's Mormon. Polygamy is structured. So even though Joseph was able to do polyandry sort of probably as a ruse or a cover up to allow him to take on these wives but have the COVID of them being married to other men, there's a structural problem for me with DC132 because it's only the men that are allowed to have multiple wives. There's Nothing in the DNC 132 or in, in the Mormon Church's practice of polygamy that allowed one woman to have multiple husbands. So structurally it was, it was unequal in that sense. Does that make sense?

Mark Schultz [02:53:57] Yes. And you're right. I did have a problem with the Mormon Jesus destroying Emma for not accepting the polygamy doctrine, their eternal marriage doctrine, and Joseph, you know, taking on all these other wives, 20, 20 other wives, before he even told her about polygamy.

John Dehlin [02:54:22] Right. And what about just the structural problem of there being in inequality that the men could have multiple wives but the wives can't have multiple men? Is that, that a problem for you?

Mark Schultz [02:54:32] Well, they can have multiple men as long as one of them is Joseph. Right. Isn't that the deal?

John Dehlin [02:54:37] Right, but I'm saying the way DNC132 is written, it says nothing about a woman being able to have multiple husbands. And that's unfair. Right?

Mark Schultz [02:54:46] Yeah, right. I. What, Dean? See, okay, yeah, that, that is a problem. It didn't bother me as much as the other problems, but it's a problem.

John Dehlin [02:55:01] It bother, you know, it bothered you for the reasons that bothered you. I'm just saying there, there are a couple people who are, who are saying, hey, you know, don't, don't be insulting to the, the wives of Brigham Young. You know, don't be mean, you know, calling out their, their appearance.

Mark Schultz [02:55:16] Well, okay, I'm going to refer to Mark Twain, you know, about him.

John Dehlin [02:55:21] I, I mean, I know who Mark Twain is. Did he make a comment about the appearance of.

Mark Schultz [02:55:25] Yes. Google it.

John Dehlin [02:55:28] Yeah. Okay.

Mark Schultz [02:55:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:55:30] You're saying Mark Twain made a comment about the appearance of Brigham Young's wives.

Mark Schultz [02:55:35] Okay, I thought that was a famous quote. I thought I was just parroting a famous quote.

John Dehlin [02:55:40] You know, there's a lot I don't know. So.

Mark Schultz [02:55:43] Okay, I don't mean to disrespect the women, you know, but I didn't.

John Dehlin [02:55:52] Well, you were making the point that it's predatory for a. More for a older Mormon prophet to prey on young teenage girls. I think that was the main point you were trying to make.

Mark Schultz [02:56:04] Yeah. And you know, this whole thing about equality of, you know, whatever. I just, when, when beauty comes in, when factors in to that whole equation, it changes the equation completely.

John Dehlin [02:56:21] Yeah. Okay, I kind of hear what you're saying. So, so it sounds like you didn't stop with DNC132. You started studying other stuff. So can you talk about kind of what resources you found to teach you about other issues and could you spend for those of us. For the, for those who are listening, who are orthodox Mormon that don't know about what's in the CES letter or elsewhere, or who don't know the problems about the church, or for the non Mormons that have never heard about any of this stuff and are just like, hey, I like Mark Schultz. Let's learn about his Mormon experience. Can you tell about where you learned about the major problems with Mormon Church history and truth claims? And can you spend some time talking about some of the things, other things you learned outside of D&C132 and why they were a problem for you?

Mark Schultz [02:57:18] DNC132 was just starting point for me. I mean I've been on a quest, I mean every day pretty much since like three months ago, looking for more and more information. You know, I, after 132 I, I just started searching the Internet and I found no Man Knows My History by Fawn Brody. And I read that.

John Dehlin [02:57:49] You read no Man Knows My History?

Mark Schultz [02:57:52] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:57:53] What'd you think? What'd you learn?

Mark Schultz [02:57:56] I learned Joseph's full of like.

John Dehlin [02:58:00] Were there a couple stories from the book that stood out for you that

Mark Schultz [02:58:05] kind of, well, gosh, I don't know. Did the Book of Abraham, the Kinderhook plates. DNC84. You know, if you know the Bible, you know saying that if you know a prophet makes a prophecy and he, it doesn't come true, that means he's not a prophet. D&C 84 prophesied Joseph prophesied New Jerusalem temple be built before the end of the generation and it wasn't. And then Kinderhook plates Joseph's made a fool.

Mark Schultz [02:58:47] And there was a, there was a, an Egyptian dictionary or something that Joseph claimed. Some, Somebody brought somebody in something into a room that Joseph proclaimed this was an Egyptian dictionary language dictionary and it was actually a salter or whatever that is psa.

Mark Schultz [02:59:12] And he just got up and walked out. He didn't defend him. His, his, his declaration that this was Egyptian language and the Book of Abraham was really the big one for me, that there's no getting out of that. And if that is because we know now that the Book of Abraham is pure fiction, that means he's not a translator.

Mark Schultz [02:59:45] And if he's not a translator like he claimed, and he can't be a prophet, seer or revelator like he claimed either. And I started looking at him and I started digging into his scrying. The, the, when he got, when he was convicted for, for glass looking scrying

John Dehlin [03:00:11] when he was treasure, when he was treasure hunting with the stone in the hat.

Mark Schultz [03:00:15] Yes. And, and then even this, even the, the, the, the gospel topic essays that the, the LDS Church put out, you know, those, was it 13 answers to 13 questions or something? And they, they gloss over the, the whole Book of Abraham papyrus thing, you know, they say because, because there's, there's controversy among Egyptologists. We're still not certain about what this means. Yeah, we are, we are certain. We know exactly what it means. It's wrong. It's, it, it's fiction. Joseph Smith made it up, especially Facsimile 3 and Joseph references Facsimile 3 in the book of Abraham, tying those two together. And he tries to translate the Egyptian hieroglyphs above Osiris and he says this means this, but it doesn't, which means he has no gifted translation, means he's making it all up.

John Dehlin [03:01:26] And I just have to say for only, for only being sort of, for only having learned about three months ago or decided three months ago that there are problems with the church, the fact that you're like quoting facsimile 3 and the kinderhook plates, only being a few months into your faith crisis, I guess maybe shows a lot about, maybe your personality, but also maybe about how important this finding was to you and how serious, serious you take it.

Mark Schultz [03:01:58] I, I think I am, I am just one more, you know, cog and a, a huge machine that is going to take down the church. Not right away, but it, it's, it's going to affect a lot because we're in the information age. I couldn't have done this. In 1991 when I joined the church, so much was kept from me. So much of the church's history was kept for me. I, I met Gordon B. Hinckley, I talked with Hugh Nibley a long time about issues that I had with the church.

Mark Schultz [03:02:40] And anyway I, I think because the information age that of course, but they have a hundred billion dollar instant peak funds so they're not hurting financially and they've got all that real estate, so they're not hurting at all.

Mark Schultz [03:02:59] And you know, anytime you get a group of people together, regardless of why they get together, let's say they're getting together because they all believe in some fiction. The fact that there's so many of them gives them a lot of power and that people like that, they like joining something bigger than being part of something bigger than themselves. I can see why people would stay in the church knowing it's, it's based On a foundation that's full of lies.

John Dehlin [03:03:34] And did you. Did you contemplate sort of. You know, this is something you referenced a little bit earlier, but would. Do you think you would have joined the church? I guess I have a couple questions. Do you think you would have joined the church back in 1991 if. If the missionaries had given you all the. The facts about Joseph Smith back then?

Mark Schultz [03:03:57] Absolutely. No, I don't think anybody would join if they knew the. The truth about Joseph Smith and. And the church and how they cover up and omit. They lie by omission, mainly. And they don't teach the missionaries what, you know, any of the real history, you know. And there's no way I would have joined. I don't think I would have anyway. Maybe I would have. No, I don't think so.

John Dehlin [03:04:35] So how did it make you feel to realize that you had joined the Mormon Church based on false pretenses?

Mark Schultz [03:04:49] Well, I never really took the religion that seriously, so I wasn't really that hurt that bad, but. And plus, my experience, BYU wasn't. I mean, it was a good experience. And church is paying me. I'm not paying them everybody else, you know, they're paying the church tithing. I'm paying tithing, too, but they're paying me a lot more. So giving up 10% of what they're paying me, part of the deal, at least in my mind, was. And so it was a different experience for me than for, you know, your average, you know, whatever member finding out it was. It was all false. Actually, it was kind of a relief. It was like, as soon as I knew that it was, it was all bs. It was like the yoke just lifted off my shoulders and I. I, like, I'm free. I feel, like, free now.

John Dehlin [03:05:56] Okay, so. So are you saying that over the past three months, your reaction hasn't been, like, anger at the church?

Mark Schultz [03:06:04] It's more.

John Dehlin [03:06:05] You feel liberated and free.

Mark Schultz [03:06:07] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:06:08] What do you feel liberated and free from?

Mark Schultz [03:06:15] Because I used to believe that, you know, you had to do all these things to get to heaven, and now I know you don't. Now I know that it has no effect on my eternal, eternal salvation.

John Dehlin [03:06:33] So I. Mark, if it's okay. I'm hearing two conflicting things. I'm hearing. And by the way, you're like, you know, you're texting me and you're emailing me, and, like, I can tell you're taking this really seriously, and that's how we ended up on this podcast together. But the two conflicting things that I'm hearing are I never really believed that much. I never really took it seriously. But then you're, like, studying it voraciously and texting me and. And coming on the podcast, sort of like, you know, with a lot of intensity about how it's not true and that now you feel liberated and free. So how do we square? You know, I guess what I feel like is you actually did care and did believe and did feel suffocated or. Or controlled or harmed by the church, and you really feel to be free of it.

Mark Schultz [03:07:33] But I don't.

John Dehlin [03:07:34] I don't want to put words in your mouth. You know,

Mark Schultz [03:07:39] finding out that I had been lied to was an injury, but being hurt like that, like, eliminated any guilt I felt for leaving. I was like, oh, okay, good. I'm done with this. And I don't know what. What two things I. I don't understand what two things you're seeing that are conflicting.

John Dehlin [03:08:04] Well, first of all, it's. This isn't me, like, saying I don't believe you. This. This is a. This comes from a respectful place. But. But there's a. You know, there's a part of your narrative that you've shared in your story, and just sometimes we don't even understand our own thoughts and feelings. That's kind of. This is kind of maybe the. The psychologist in me coming out a little bit. On the one hand, you've said a lot during today's episode. I never fully believed it. I never fully bought in.

John Dehlin [03:08:31] You know, I joined for the job. But on the other hand, you stayed active for a very long time, and when you. When you found out it wasn't true, you felt deceived, and you also felt relieved by the burden of your beliefs. And so there's kind of. There's a bit of parallel messages about. You never took it seriously and never totally believed.

John Dehlin [03:08:56] But, you know, you were. You were mad that you were deceived, and you felt real relieved that. That you no longer believed it anymore. Does that make sense?

Mark Schultz [03:09:06] Yeah. Humans are complicated. You know, it. It. You're a psychologist. You know how complicated psychology can be.

John Dehlin [03:09:16] Yeah. Yeah. So I'm just one. I'm so. It's not me doubting you, it's just me wanting to ask you how you reflect upon, you know, those contrasting kind of narratives that you've got within your own brain. It sounds like you were kind of compartmentalized. You never took it too seriously, but maybe on some level you really did take it seriously. Maybe on some level you really did care and really did Believe. Is that possible?

Mark Schultz [03:09:44] Yeah, I don't know. I mean, you know, look, I guess, I don't know. Whatever mood I'm in, if I feel like I'm good, argue with somebody over whether the church is true or not, I'll fight him to the death. If I'm, if, if I'm, you know, tired, I don't care. Do whatever you want. But it, you know, I go up and down. We all go up and down. So, yeah, I could see how you could, how you could see those two sides in, in my mind or whatever. But. Yeah, I, I don't know. I just thought I'd come on here to make sure any potential investigators have informed consent before they decide to join.

John Dehlin [03:10:41] Absolutely. No, I'm not like, I, I love your story and I love your courage and I love your passion and I love your integrity. So many people, you know, are, are on even after they lose their faith completely, especially if they're public figures.

John Dehlin [03:10:59] They're, they're terrified to ever like, speak openly and publicly. And so I, I have deep respect that you're, that you're willing to do it now because, because the, you know, without, you know, wanting to harm the church directly. The deception. And the, the deception continues. Right? There's still people joining the church without all the information, and there's still people in the church who don't have any idea. And so the only way people become aware so that they can make an informed decision is if courageous people like you speak up. And then when somebody who has public notoriety like Tyler Glenn did, you know, like Mindy Gledhill did, like a few courageous people have, Wayne Sermon, Benji Schwimmer.

John Dehlin [03:11:55] You know, occasionally a high profile Mormon loses their faith and instead of just going away quiet, they're willing to speak up. And I see it as one of the most courageous and important things somebody can do in your situation. So I'm, I have deep respect for you, for, for your willingness to tell this story.

Mark Schultz [03:12:17] Oh, well, thank you. I, I, I have deep respect for you, but you're getting the truth out there that people don't really have. They're not getting it from any other place except people like you. Arf and Chris Johnson. Chris Johnson really affected me when he showed me that, that the display of all the books that contained chiasmus, that blew my mind. I never thought I'd ever see another book with that much chiasmus in it. And when I did, when I found that, it pretty much blew me out of the water. I mean, I had nothing to, to to hold on to anymore.

John Dehlin [03:13:21] Yeah, we'll, we'll make sure and share a link to the Chris Johnson video about chiasmus. I, I, I spoke to Radio Free Mormon this morning, and Radio Free Mormon is, is, is following right now on the chat.

Mark Schultz [03:13:37] So we have to, hey, rfm.

John Dehlin [03:13:39] We have to give a shout out to rfm, because everybody knows that RFM is, is the, is the King. You know, the podcast.

Mark Schultz [03:13:46] He's really entertaining guy. It's funny.

John Dehlin [03:13:50] He is, He's a great guy. We love your, we love you, rfm. Okay, so, so, yeah, your, your cry, your chiasm pillar falls along with the Book of Abraham and the Kindred Plates and Joseph in the translation and all that. Now, there are still some Mormons, you know, let's just say, like Richard Bushman or Terrell and Fiona Givens or Patrick Mason or others who say, well, maybe, maybe the Book of Abraham wasn't a translation and maybe the Mormon Church isn't the only one true church, but it's still a good way to live. It's still a good place to find community.

John Dehlin [03:14:30] You can still follow Jesus in the Mormon Church. So, you know, let's just say, okay, we don't believe a lot about what the Mormon Church teaches, but we can still have it be the place where we worship and follow Christ. What's kept you from going that route and just being kind of a progressive, liberal Christian Mormon? Because a lot of people are choosing that route. What keeps you from choosing that route?

Mark Schultz [03:15:01] I mean, why don't I join another religious organization?

John Dehlin [03:15:04] No, no, no. Why, why don't you just stay as a Mormon and just be a Christian, but within the Mormon Church, like a lot of, you know, intellectual, scholarly, progressive Mormons are doing these days?

Mark Schultz [03:15:20] Because I don't.

John Dehlin [03:15:28] Okay, I mean, yeah, that's brilliant and beautiful and simple, but a lot of people say they don't know about Joseph Smith, but they can still worship and follow Jesus as a Mormon. But what do you think about that?

Mark Schultz [03:15:43] I can't follow the Mormon Jesus because the Mormon Jesus is very different than the biblical Jesus. The Mormon Jesus. I mean, he, what does he do? He, he'll destroy Emma Smith for not accepting polygamy. It, you know, he, he's, you know, and I'm still, I, I, I, I have to admit, I do not know a lot of things. Right. One of the things I don't know is, Is Jesus Christ, did he really rise from the dead and pay for our sins?

Mark Schultz [03:16:45] I want to believe that, but I don't know. I don't have the evidence to base it off of yet. I'm still searching for that. But there's no way I could be a member of the Mormon Church now because the Book of Abraham, you know, everything, almost everything. You look at everything. Every time Joseph Smith opened his mouth, lies came out. How are you going to be. This is the prophet of the restoration of the Church of Jesus Christ. This makes no sense.

John Dehlin [03:17:30] Yeah, well, Mark, I don't, I don't know if you feel this way, and I don't even know if what I'm about to say is going to make sense to you, but just like you went from warp speed to, you know, starting your wrestling career in high school to winning the California State wrestling championship, just like you went from never being in a UFC fighter to winning a UFC match in, in light speed, I have to tell you that you have gone, typical Mark Schultz fashion, you've gone light speed from starting to have the idea that you are going to question the Mormon Church's truth claims to, like, three years later, sorry, to, to three months later being able to rifle off the number of issues that you've been able to internalize and absorb.

John Dehlin [03:18:25] So on the one hand, I, I want to just say, in typical Mark Schultz fashion, you know, you're going at light speed in your processing of the problems with Mormon Church truth claims, and there's also some viewers and listeners that are saying you're still a baby in your process because, you know, it's very early. You know, by any other standard, this is still very new to you and a lot to absorb, given that you've been a Mormon for over 30 years.

Mark Schultz [03:18:58] Yeah, I mean, I don't, I don't fool myself into, you know, thinking that I, you know, I can just leave religion like that, that it's so full of indoctrinations and, and come away, you know, unfaithed. I'm sure there's issues that I have with this, but there's no going back, that's for sure.

Mark Schultz [03:19:30] And, and I, and I, I, I attack the problem like I attack everything a hundred percent. Once I believe something's true, that's all I need. And you know, that's the great thing about the truth. Oh. If, if the, if the Joseph Smith says the Book of Mormons, the most correct book on earth, you don't need much evidence to prove it's false. All you need is one contradiction, mistake, error, anything that doesn't make sense. And the whole, you can just throw the whole thing in the trash.

Mark Schultz [03:20:04] And I, I don't I don't need to know every single thing that's wrong with the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith, Book of Abraham, the doctrine of. Because all I need is, you know, one or two things, and I've got way more than that.

Historical Problems With Mormon Truth Claims

John Dehlin [03:20:21] But what is it that you've learned that, that, that that demonstrates the Book of Mormon to not be true? What if. Just tell us really quickly a few things you've learned because you haven't really mentioned problems with the Book of Mormon yet. What, what are a few things you've learned about the Book of Mormon that have led you to believe that it's not true?

Mark Schultz [03:20:47] Well, Joseph has no gift of translation. The witnesses never saw the plates. The plates never existed. Joseph never even needed the plates to exist in order to write it. There were competing or no, not competing, I should say there were similar books existing in this around the same time and place as Joseph Smith that are very similar to stories in the Book of Mormon. His father, Joseph Smith senior, told him the story about his dream he turned into the, the tree of life and the, the, the iron rod Lehi.

Mark Schultz [03:21:37] And yeah, it's, it's all just, it's all just plagiarized and filled in with fiction. And he speaks and, you know, kind of like Mark Twain said, he's got this sort of folksy country, you know, way of speaking, but then he has to throw in a couple of, you know, King James vs. Version Bible quotes to, you know, give it that feeling or that sound that this is scripture, you know, the way I think, you know. And also, you know, the paintings and stuff that the church, like Arnold Freeberg, he's got these paintings of pictures of Joseph sitting at some table looking at these gold plates.

Mark Schultz [03:22:29] Got his finger on the gold plates. That never happened. The witnesses that saw the gold plates left the church. All of them, every single one. And Joseph sitting here bragging about how he can keep any church together better than anybody in history, including Jesus Christ.

Mark Schultz [03:22:51] But he didn't. Everybody was fleeing him at the end after he started screwing all those women. You know, William Law, it's like, this ain't happening. Nauvoo Expositor, you know, Joseph decides to send the Danites in to burn the Navu Expositor. And Governor Ford has him arrested.

Mark Schultz [03:23:16] Ends up in Carthage. And he killed two people before he died. He didn't. He wasn't martyred. He's not like, you know, letting, like Jesus letting him die. Like Jesus is letting people letting the, the Romans crucify him. He's fighting for his life. He's shooting two people, killing three.

Mark Schultz [03:23:38] And he's giving them the masonry signs to try to, you know, it's like, oh Lord, my God, is there no mercy for the widow's son? You know, he's trying to use the Mason science to stay alive. He's not giving up. He's fighting for his life.

John Dehlin [03:23:58] He's not quite an innocent lamb to the slaughter like we were taught.

Mark Schultz [03:24:04] No.

John Dehlin [03:24:05] Yeah.

Mark Schultz [03:24:05] And you know, everything has been set up for the benefit of Joseph Smith so he can get more rich, more powerful without doing any hard labor like his dad did he ever, he, he, he admits he hated hard labor, he hated working the farm. He figured out a way to, you know, buck the system. I, you know, I gotta hand it to him. The guy, you know, built my vu and that's biggest city in Illinois. It's, you know, I, I've never done that. But the way he did it was so, I mean, I could have done it in 1830, but not in today's, you know, Internet age.

John Dehlin [03:24:51] But you, you, you didn't mention like anachronisms in the Book of Mormon or DNA. Were those a part of your deconstruction?

Mark Schultz [03:24:59] Yes, absolutely. Elephants, wheat, barley, dogs, chickens, horses, steel. None of that stuff existed in pre Columbian America. And they're in the Book of Mormon, right? Yeah. I mean, every time you turn around there's some problem with something Joseph said or did, it wrote. Yeah, it's an avalanche of lies.

John Dehlin [03:25:35] Man, Mark, you've really done your homework. I'm super impressed.

Mark Schultz [03:25:40] Well, you know, the way I approach everything, you know. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:25:47] All right, so, so you've, you've touched on this. But so, so have you told anybody before now? Did you reach out to anyone that you really cared about who is still in the church to tell them you no longer believe? And if so, what's been the reaction of people who you've told you no longer believe?

Mark Schultz [03:26:09] I've told. I've told a lot of people on Facebook and Twitter, a lot of people. And a lot of my wrestlers will come on there and argue with me and I'll tell them what they know. I love you guys, but this, you know, you know, you want to keep, you want to keep giving your 10% of your income to a tax free corporation. You know, it's got a hundred billion dollars in the Anson Peak fund. Go ahead. But you know, I don't trust them with my money. And anyway, I forgot the question.

John Dehlin [03:26:56] Yeah, so what, what are the people who are in the church, who are still in the church, who still Believe who you've told you no longer believe. What's their reaction been and, and how have they treated you?

Mark Schultz [03:27:11] Well, I, I, I'm the only member of my family and well my, I baptized my son so, but he's getting out and I sent him Mark Noggles letter to send in and get out and that's really the only person because, you know, I don't have any family members to tell. You know, I, I, I go to church alone.

Mark Schultz [03:27:48] I don't, and now I don't even go to church, at least not the Mormon Church. But yeah, I, I, I, as soon as I realized that I was done, I, I, I haven't had any contact. Well, I had one contact with one guy. I told him I left and he was, he was accepting of it, I guess. I, he didn't ask me why. I don't think he wants to know.

Mark Schultz [03:28:24] But I, I understand that I, I, I saw myself doing that, you know, when I was a member. I haven't told many people that are in the church that are like my former, you know, ward members or anything.

Mark Schultz [03:28:42] I haven't said anything. There's no re one. My home teacher, he called me and he said hey Mark, your name's not on the records anymore. Did you move your, your name to a different ward or something in California? And I told him I did because I didn't want to hurt his feelings because he was such a good guy.

John Dehlin [03:29:06] Well, well, people are going to find out now. You may be contacted by some people after this interview.

Mark Schultz [03:29:18] The Danites?

John Dehlin [03:29:19] No, just people who are surprised or people you may find former, you know, BYU wrestlers that you, that you coached who have left the church and who are going to say me too or former colleagues or former ward members.

Mark Schultz [03:29:34] You may have a lot of them. I had found several that have left the church. Yeah, I'm not gonna name names, but yeah, it's the people that I relate to and I think like the, the most, they left the church. My, my best friend left the church, you know.

John Dehlin [03:30:01] Yeah, yeah. Well, somebody asked how you, how you removed your records. You used, you used quit Mormon with Mark Noggle, right to, to resign.

Mark Schultz [03:30:11] Yeah, I, I didn't move them. I quit. I took, I had my name taken off the records.

John Dehlin [03:30:17] How did you, how did you do that?

Mark Schultz [03:30:20] I just filled out the form with Mark, the one Mark Nago provides and get, got it notarized and sent it to the address that was on the letter.

John Dehlin [03:30:33] Okay, and you found that, you found that equip Mormon, is that right?

Mark Schultz [03:30:36] Yeah, that's Right.

John Dehlin [03:30:38] Okay. Okay. So really quickly, you've alluded to this, but I know you, you still have a belief in God, and you're exploring a belief in Jesus. Do you want to talk about why God, Jesus and the New Testament are still, are still important to you? And if you've even tried, you know, what other Christian churches.

Mark Schultz [03:31:00] You know what I would like to know? I, I know I'll never find out now, but I'm a big fan of Robert Rittner and Dr. Robert, the Egyptologist, and I would like to know what he thinks about Jesus and, or God, because there's a very similar story about the God Horus. And this is born on the same day as Jesus rose from the dead after three days and went against the, the establishment. And I, I, I'm, I'm still searching that, but I, I wish I, I really liked Robert Rittner. God, he was so great in that. Matter of fact, it was on your show that I, I really, really fell in love with that guy.

Mark Schultz [03:31:59] He's, he's a cool guy. Somebody dedicated his life to Egyptology, and he's so certain. You know, he's so forceful, and he just, there's no room for error in his, you know, whereas he talks about, you know, guys like John G. And Mulestein.

Mark Schultz [03:32:20] I understand those guys, though. I mean, they're just trying to hang on to their jobs till they retire. They're just, you know. I understand that mentality.

John Dehlin [03:32:34] Yeah, yeah, you're, you're, you are an example of someone that, that defended the church in part because your job depended on it, right?

Mark Schultz [03:32:44] Yeah, I, My job really didn't depend on defending the church. It depended on being able to live in that culture with, you know, in peace and, you know, having a stable life. You know, I mean, what, Imagine what would happen to Guy and Mealstein if they, if they all of a sudden just started telling the truth. Who was the guy that. That left? There was a Guy. I, I just read about him last night. He's not BH Roberts, but the guy that left, and he changed completely from apologist to accepting Dan Vogel's view of the Book of Abraham. Do you remember?

John Dehlin [03:33:35] Oh, yeah, that's Brian. Brian Hauglet, right? Yeah.

Mark Schultz [03:33:39] Yeah, that's that. To me, his story is kind of a classic sort of example of timing. You know, he stayed in it long enough to get his, his retirement, and then as soon as he got retirement, he revealed the truth. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:34:03] Yeah. Grant Palmer. I don't know if you've run into the name Grant Palmer yet, but he's the same, he's the same basic thing. He was a, a CES director, seminary institute teacher. And once he knew he could retire with his pension, that's when he started feeling comfortable opening up about his loss of faith.

Mark Schultz [03:34:21] Yes. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:34:26] You can't really fault people for protecting their pension when they've given their lives, you know, to the church.

Mark Schultz [03:34:33] Yeah. Especially, you know, those who were born into it. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:34:39] Yeah.

Mark Schultz [03:34:40] They meek. The idea that we're baptizing 8 year olds are making them feel that they're at the age of accountability at 8 is ridiculous. The prefrontal cortex isn't even formed till you're 25. Yeah. These guys are, it's, you know, they're get up and say, I know the church is true. That's child abuse, in my opinion. Well, especially knowing what I know now. Yeah. Back then I thought, you know, look at how cute that kid is. Whatever. Yeah.

Life After Mormonism and Closing Reflections

John Dehlin [03:35:15] So, so in terms of still wanting to believe in a God and in Jesus in an afterlife, it sounds like you're still trying to, you're still trying to make sense of, of those things. But, but you do, you do have a disposition to want to still believe in God and Jesus, correct?

Mark Schultz [03:35:35] Well, my, yes. Because I've had so many miracles happen for me in my life, I cannot deny the existence of miracles. If not God, then at least miracles. And if there's miracles, then maybe there is a God. And I, I think there is. I, I, I just can't imagine.

Mark Schultz [03:36:02] I don't know, it's just the way, I mean, the moon, the moon and the sun are the same size going around the Earth, and they block each other out once in a while? What are the chances that those two objects would be the exact same size in the exact same orbit, but only from the position of standing on this Earth?

Mark Schultz [03:36:28] That's pretty remarkable. I think maybe there's something special about the Earth. Maybe this is, you know, a place where, a sacred ground for where we're going to learn or be tested or whatever. I mean, I have a very, My brother, when my brother was four years old, he was playing with my dad at a playground. And my brother said, dad, you want to hear a big secret?

Mark Schultz [03:36:59] And my dad goes, sir, what is it? He goes, you won't laugh at me, will you? No, it was okay. Before I was born, I was standing in the clouds and I was looking down on the earth and I was surrounded by 12 men. And the oldest one pointed down to the Earth and said, you're gonna go down there to be Tested.

Mark Schultz [03:37:21] And then my brother ran away and played in some jungle gym or something. And my dad's kind of stunned, you know, and he's sitting there going, did that kid just say what I thought he said? And he runs over to Dave and he goes, dave, I have to know, did you pass the test? And Dave said, yeah, I passed, but I'm not gonna be here very long.

Mark Schultz [03:37:47] And he was killed at age of 36. I don't know, I just, I, you know, I, I don't, I, you know, look at all the near death experiences they have on YouTube. Yeah, I, I tend to believe that we're gonna, we're gonna live our con. Einstein said, you can't destroy or create energy. So where's our, our human spirit, our consciousness gonna go? The, that's energy. It's not going to be destroyed when our body dies. I mean, do you think that's gonna happen?

John Dehlin [03:38:34] I mean, I, I hope that there, I, I do hope that there's an afterlife. I do. I, if I can, I love living. And so if I can keep living after I die, I, I love it. So. I hope, I hope that there's an afterlife. I absolutely do. Yeah.

Mark Schultz [03:38:53] Yeah, yeah, me too.

John Dehlin [03:38:56] And I bet you hope you can see your brother again someday, right?

Mark Schultz [03:39:00] Yeah, I, I, yeah. And, you know, Yeah, absolutely. I want to, I want to be with, you know, people that I love. Love me forever, hopefully. Yeah, who wouldn't?

John Dehlin [03:39:20] Yeah, yeah, that's true. So you would have joined the church before your brother died? So I'm curious really quickly, I didn't ask you this. What, what did your dad and brother or anyone else in your family say when you joined the church? And, and then was your dad able to say anything now that, that you've left it?

Mark Schultz [03:39:46] Yeah, he kind of makes fun of me. Like you were so brainwashed, you know, like, why you have to rub it in like that.

John Dehlin [03:39:55] What, what did he, what did your dad say when you joined?

Mark Schultz [03:40:03] Not really much of anything. I tried to convert my brother. I brought him up to Temple Square, I brought him through, you know, the whole tour thing. And I thought I would be able to convert him. And of course, I never did. His wife doesn't believe in God, but. So I never, I never did.

Mark Schultz [03:40:26] And, but I mean, you, you know, if I'm willing to try to convert my brother, you know, I believe it so. But thank God he never joined. And see, I think God, there is a God and that God protects me. And I've been, I think I've had a lot of strange Experiences where, you know, it just.

Mark Schultz [03:41:01] All these things have to fall in place in order for, like, the fightlore episode that just came out. You know, the number of things that had to fall in place to create that was incredible. It's, like, beyond coincidence. I mean, you saw it, you know, Anyway, that's how I left the church. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:41:33] And I. I will say your life has been miraculous in so many ways. So I understand why. Why you still want to hold on to those beliefs, and many people do, and I respect it. So I respect you. So, Mark, as we're. As we're kind of wrapping up. What. What. What are you doing now? And, you know, how can people follow you? You know, what are you doing?

Mark Schultz [03:42:03] And.

John Dehlin [03:42:03] And. And what do you want people to know about your life now?

Mark Schultz [03:42:09] Okay, if you want to follow me, I'm. My name On Facebook is Ms. Grappling. My name on Twitter is Mark Schultz. That's my name with a Y at the end. And my name on Instagram is mark P. Schultz. Ps for Philip. So I do grappling seminars, wrestling camps that I. I make appearances, speeches, speaking engagements, that kind of stuff. Martial arts instruction.

John Dehlin [03:42:57] Okay. And you do that in Oregon, right?

Mark Schultz [03:43:00] I do it all over the country. I travel everywhere. All over the world, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:43:07] Really quickly, I'm going to read you just a couple quick comments a guy named Shane Cunningham wrote. You're laughing already. Do you know who Shane is?

Mark Schultz [03:43:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:43:19] Did you read the quote? Did you read the comedies already made?

Mark Schultz [03:43:22] No. What's it say?

John Dehlin [03:43:24] Shane writes, I know Mark from my associations with him in Southern Oregon and from my time when we were both in the same ward. He really tried hard to defend the faith. After my excommunication, I lost touch with him. I'm so looking forward to his story. Please tell him that Shane Cunningham says hello. I would definitely allow time for him to talk about how the profound loss of his brother Dave informed his conversion and belief. They had a deep connection. And Dave's death was so profound to Mark's journey. That's what Shane Cunningham has to say.

Mark Schultz [03:43:59] Okay. Okay. I'm gonna tell you something about Shane, but I. I'm not going to humiliate him in front of him or in front of anybody, but I will share one thing with you after we get off the website.

John Dehlin [03:44:18] Well, what's it. What's it like to hear from Shane now?

Mark Schultz [03:44:22] It's fine.

John Dehlin [03:44:23] Okay.

Mark Schultz [03:44:24] Yeah. I wish him the best. He's a good guy. Did he say he was excommunicated?

John Dehlin [03:44:30] Yeah.

Mark Schultz [03:44:31] Okay, that. That makes sense. No, He's a good guy. He really is. He's got a good heart.

John Dehlin [03:44:40] Yeah. Okay. And then Nathan Arthur Peterson writes. I'm excited about this one. Mark was one of my heroes in high school. He was good friends with my high school coach and would come run wrestling clinics at my school. I loved going to the BYU wrestling matches and camps. I got a recruiting trip to BYU after my senior year, and it was a close second on my college list. I was so disappointed when BYU dropped the program while I was on my mission. I am really interested in this time at BYU and his interactions with the administration. I think we kind of covered that stuff.

Mark Schultz [03:45:14] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:45:19] Oh, Scott Brown wants to know if you're close with Rulon Gardner. That's Mormon wrestler Rulon Gardner. And if there's anything you want to say about Rulon.

Mark Schultz [03:45:30] Well, Rulon is Olympic champion. He's a Mormon, and he, he is the winner of what we called Miracle on the Mat, where he beat Alexander carillon in the 2000, 2000 Olympics in the finals. And, yeah, Rulon's a great, great man. You know, I. And he's. I recruited Rulon to come to byu. He ended up going to Nebraska, which was better for him because we dropped the program. But I recruited Rulon to come and wrestle for me at byu. I really liked him a lot.

John Dehlin [03:46:21] Do we know if he's still a believing member of the church? Do we even know?

Mark Schultz [03:46:27] I'm pretty sure he is.

John Dehlin [03:46:29] Okay. All right.

Mark Schultz [03:46:34] And then maybe not.

John Dehlin [03:46:36] Go ahead.

Mark Schultz [03:46:37] Maybe not. Maybe not after today.

John Dehlin [03:46:44] Really quickly, one last comment. My friend Rebecca Peterson writes, my husband wanted me to tell you to say hello to Mark Schultz for him. He wrestled for Ben Ojai at, in high school. That would help him make the connection.

Mark Schultz [03:47:02] Yeah. Yeah. Ben Ohis really good friend of mine. Yeah. Yeah. I'll tell you something about Ben after we're off the air.

John Dehlin [03:47:15] So we'll have, we'll have. We'll have the after after show conversation.

Mark Schultz [03:47:19] Right.

John Dehlin [03:47:20] All right, Mark. Well, just to close like, you've made a big announcement today. The Mormon Church was really important in your life, and. And now you found out it wasn't true for you, and so you're letting the world know. I guess I'll end with a two part question. Do you regret having been Mormon? And what are the final words you want to say to any believing or active Mormons or even anybody investigating the Mormon Church? What are the final words you want to say? So do you regret having been Mormon? And what are your final words to anyone who's Mormon or investigating Mormonism.

Mark Schultz [03:48:01] I, I don't regret going to BYU and becoming the head wrestling coach and joining the Mormon Church, if that's what I had to do to do that. It wasn't a negative experience for me. It was a positive. A lot of it because of the non members, the non Mormon members I met there, but also the Mormons that I met. I had a great group of kids, man, they were just really good kids. They were like the top academic school in the academic wrestling team in the nation three times.

Mark Schultz [03:48:40] And I'm glad I got my master's degree. And I don't. I don't regret joining the church. The only thing that is wrong with what happened with me was they lied by omission to get me and keep me and what. And I don't blame anybody for that. I don't think the people that. That did that, that, you know, I know Alan Albright didn't lie to me or he would, not intentionally anyway.

Mark Schultz [03:49:15] And. But I know the truth now and I think I don't have any regrets about it. It's just the fact that I was lied to that injured me and that injury, the pain of that injury made me feel good when I left. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:49:48] Well, Mark Schultz, it has. It has been a real honor for me to. To have you reach out to hear about your story and, and to be able to just have you be willing to come on Mormon Stories and share it. You know, things really, you know, when, when somebody with power and influence is willing to be honest and open about their experiences, sometimes that, that really has a big impact on people's lives. And so I just want to thank you for your willingness to be open and honest and come on Mormon Stories and tell your story. It means the world.

Mark Schultz [03:50:30] Yeah, I'm not afraid to. Of the truth. As much as it might hurt, I'd rather have it than not. And I. I think most people are like that, and that's why I'm here. I want you to know I appreciate what you do and you know, Mike and Gerardo and our fam and all those guys that are getting the word out. But the truth, the foundation, the history behind the Mormon Church that nobody really knows about. If they did, they wouldn't join.

John Dehlin [03:51:04] Yeah. Well, let me just plug a couple things. So your book is called Foxcatcher, the True Story of My brother's Murder, John Dupont's Madness and the Quest for Olympic Gold, published in 2014. Please check out Mark's book and go to UFC fight pass.com register and you can Watch a really cool documentary called Wrestling Demons, Mark Schultz ultimate Victory where he defeated Gary Goodridge in UFC 9. And please reach out to Mark on Facebook, Twitter or Instagram because he's always up for public speaking engagements and, you know, self defense instruction. Mark Schultz, we honor you and we wish you the best and we, we hope you'll, you'll reach out anytime. Let us return the favor and we hope this isn't the last time that we hear from you, brother.

Mark Schultz [03:52:05] Well, thank you. It's an honor. I appreciate you too. I hope come back someday.

John Dehlin [03:52:13] All right, Mark. Take care, brother.

Mark Schultz [03:52:16] Okay, thank you.

John Dehlin [03:52:17] All right, and thanks everyone for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Please right now subscribe to our YouTube channel or click the alarm or both. That will inform you every time a new episode is released and it will help us with the algorithms. We have a goal to reach a hundred thousand YouTube subscribers that will help the channel reach more people. So Please become a YouTube subscriber today.

John Dehlin [03:52:42] Also, you know this podcast exists through listener and viewer support. So if any of you are in the position to donate to Mormon Stories Podcast, you can go to mormonstories.org click on the donate button. Become a monthly donor. We're tax deductible in the US we're transparent in our finances, and we are committed to promoting informed consent and transparency within Mormonism and to support people like Mark who are experiencing a faith crisis. Also, Mormonism Live, if you are joining us in the live stream right now, Mormonism Live starts in like 15, 20 minutes. RFM and Bill Rule have a really important episode about automatic writing and Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin [03:53:28] So please support Mormonism Live and Bill Real and radio Free Mormon like, like all the other things that we encourage. And most importantly, just be good to each other, be kind to each other and let's keep seeking truth. Like Mark said, truth matters. Let's keep following the truth wherever it leads. So thanks everyone so much and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. Take care, everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.