Introduction and Welcome

Part 1 of 4 · Ep. 701

John Dehlin [00:00:29] Hello and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. As usual, I'm your host, John de Lind. It's March 1, 2017. We are in Draper, Utah, and I'm super excited. Super excited.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:00:40] There's that word. There's that word.

John Dehlin [00:00:43] So excited to be interviewing today. Kim Sandberg Turner. Kim and Kerry Turner have been like, sort of like an additional family for my family. And while that's true, that's not why I'm interviewing them. They have this fabulously interesting Mormon story. Super devout.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:01:03] It's really just an ordinary story.

John Dehlin [00:01:05] Okay, I don't mean to speak it up too much, but they were certainly in it to win it as a couple. Multiple kids. Terry served as bishop twice. Kim served as Relief Society president at least a few times.

John Dehlin [00:01:21] Very devout members of the church, both in South America and in Utah. And I would say they were probably on their way to sort of mission president, mission president's wife status or beyond when things kind of derailed a little bit while they were living in Draper. So we're going to talk about the Turner family's Mormon transition and what happened and how, you know, what I think is most important about their story is the way that with grace and with style, with class and with fun and with a sense of humor, they have built an incredibly happy, fulfilling, rich, rewarding life after a transition. So it fits well with the series that we're doing on Mormon transitions and just with general some of the more epic Mormon stories interviews like Christine Jepsen Clark or Lisa and Paul hacking the one ordinary family's Extraordinary Mormon Journey.

John Dehlin [00:02:15] Definitely that caliber as far as I'm concerned. But also what's really important about their story is that Kim went on to form a community and a support group for women of a certain age. They're called wca. And it started out as kind of a wasatch front thing where 40 year old plus women would support each other and love each other and just pick up and build new lives after sort of the church didn't quite work out like they thought, but it's spreading. So now there's WAKA organizations and how many cities do you think?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:02:51] 11.

John Dehlin [00:02:51] 11.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:02:52] No, eight. And then an online one.

John Dehlin [00:02:54] Yeah, yeah. So lots of WAKA communities popping up and. And we are going to be talking about WAKA at the end of today's interview, but we're gonna actually have a special WAKA interview next Wednesday night. We're going to do a live Mormon stories event and talk about WAKA in depth. So we are here to interview you. Kim, welcome To Mormon stories.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:03:18] Thank you, John.

Kim's Early Years as a Mormon

John Dehlin [00:03:19] All right, so I'm going to flip. I'm going to flip back over and sit down. And, Kim, tell us about your early years as a Mormon.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:03:30] Okay. I was born into a family with parents that were not active in the church. My father was raised in the church, but later on became inactive after his stint in the Army. I met my mother, though, and the two of them were met, married, and got. They met on a blind date and were married two months later.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:04:01] And that marriage lasted over 50 years. But, yeah, it was long. And my mother was baptized by my father with the goal of going to church, which would have made my grandmother very happy. I think that was probably the only reason my father was going to do that.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:04:16] But it never happened. And so therefore, I was raised by inactive parents is, you know, the term that we used when we were growing up. Terry was raised very similarly. His parents were the same age as my parents. They were married the same year. They were the same.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:04:34] We had a lot in common when we met with our parents and their backgrounds. The only difference was that at 16, Terry's mom and dad decided to become active in the church. And Terry had a little bit to do with that because Terry was kind of going down a path they didn't want him to go down. And. And when they.

John Dehlin [00:04:55] He was having a little too much fun.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:04:56] Yeah, he was a little too much fun. In fact, the night that they were driving him home from the juvenile delinquent hall, Terry Turner, George said to Betty, betty, we're going to go tomorrow and get suits. It was Saturday the next day, and we're going to church on Sunday. And he kept his word and they went. So from 16 on, Terry had you full time church activity in his life. He came from a ward that was fabulous. It was the Bennion 3rd Ward. And Lynn Bateman was the priesthood advisor. And I think 99% of the boys went on missions in that quorum.

John Dehlin [00:05:36] Was this Kearns as well?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:05:37] No, this was Taylorsville.

John Dehlin [00:05:38] Taylorsville.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:05:39] Taylorsville. It was called Bennion at the time. And now it's Taylorsville city.

John Dehlin [00:05:43] And where's Taylorsville?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:05:44] About Taylorsville and Kearns hug each other.

John Dehlin [00:05:46] Okay, so around West Valley and back

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:05:49] then, where we went to high school, it took in kids from some kids that had gone to Cyprus, Granger, Cottonwood.

John Dehlin [00:05:56] Got it.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:05:57] It was a big, big area. But at the time, but now it's much smaller in that way. We had an idyllic childhood. We had the neighborhood that the kids played out in the streets we climbed trees, we played night games, we played tetherball, we set up treasure hunts, we had had clubs. We did all of that. And there were a lot of kids that I grew up with on our street, and half the kids were active in the church and the other half were not.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:06:26] I remember in my early years, I think the reason why the church became so dear to me was because of my grandmother, who was my father's mother. She had been widowed when she was 50 years old, and she was very devout in the church, Very one of those women that you always saw in the kitchen serving for the war dinners, the banquets, you know, she was always taking food to the neighbors. She was always. She was just always about that. And she used to.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:07:03] I don't know, it's really hard to explain her impact that she had on me because as I've been able to kind of analyze things through the years, it's kind of a hard realization because what I did was I ended up. Because my own mother was not active in the church. I know that I turned more to my grandmother, who was.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:07:32] And because of that, I think. I think I broke my mother's heart a little bit along the way. Because I remember thinking, oh, I wish I could talk to my mother about spiritual things. I wish I could talk to my mother about eternal things. I wish I could do all of these things. And so it naturally became a barrier between my mother and me. And my father was.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:08:00] He smoked and my father drank alcohol. My mother did not smoke or drink alcohol, which most of the women on our neighborhood, on our street, did, but my mother didn't. But the thing that was really interesting about that is that, you know, he still. They had him coach some basketball on the ward, so he would do that. And then my father always contributed to the budget because. Because his kids attended church, and so he felt like he should contribute in that way. And he was always the first guy with a hammer and nail to work on the buildings. Because back when I was growing up, the members built the buildings and we had budget meetings.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:08:38] I remember that budget dinners and dime a dip dinners where you'd get in a line and you paid a dime a dip and your whole family could come and you counted the dips. And they had budget movies on Saturdays where you'd go over and watch the movie and buy candy, and all that money went toward the building of the pre correlation. Oh, yeah, that's some of the best times.

John Dehlin [00:08:59] Isn't it weird? That's some of the best times.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:09:01] Some of the best times. Of my life. I have no problem whatsoever with my childhood in the church and how it was and how almost magical it was. The roadshows, that's where I learned how to speak in public. We had to give two and a half minute talks. We had speech contests. We had.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:09:21] There were so many activities. There were so many things that brought you together as a family. Now, the other problem that I did have, though, at the time is because as a child, it was always really hard for me because my parents were inactive in church. So that meant that they were less than. They were less than my friend's parents that did go.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:09:46] And I would be sitting there and they would talk about people who smoked were bad, you know, and there was that general feeling. But I knew my dad wasn't bad. My dad was a wonderful man. In fact, my dad never knew a stranger. My dad was beloved wherever he was.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:10:05] He spent his last days living in a condominium in Jordan, in South Jordan. And a lot of the people that came to his funeral were people that, as they walked by the front of his garage where he was a carpenter and he'd always work out in his garage. And he was in a jazzy by this time in his life after the effects of polio on his life. And there were people that were at his funeral that got to know him simply by walking by the garage. And he would wave, or he'd ask them about their families, or he'd ask them about, you know, and that's how they got to know him.

Growing Up, Marriage, and Family Life

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:10:38] And my mother was probably one of the kindest, most guilest people I've ever known. And it was always really hard for me that I knew them to be this certain way. And they're the ones that gave me my values, that gave me my.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:10:57] They're the ones that formed who I was. And yet I was always trying to put it all together with church and stuff. They weren't in church, so were they as valuable? You know, those are things kids shouldn't have to worry about or wonder about. And so just to jump ahead. So when the November policy happened with gay children and stuff, it was deeply, deeply personal because they were being made to choose with their parents, you know, to have to disavow their parents. And I remember as a kid feeling that same experience of, well, you know, no, my parents are good parents. They're good people. They're this and this and this.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:11:39] Because I was getting the message over here that they weren't. That there was something, you know, they were invalidated or whatever. So Anyway, those are always feelings that were back and forth, back and forth with me all the time.

John Dehlin [00:11:53] And then you said your parents were the type that would take people in for Thanksgiving.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:11:57] Oh, yeah, Thanksgiving. We sat by strangers because if dad knew somebody that hadn't had a place to go, they were at our table.

John Dehlin [00:12:05] And he was a full time carpenter.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:12:07] Yeah, he was a carpenter. Yes, full time at Kennecott. And then he went back to school and became a mechanical engineer. And see, this is the interesting part. Back in my childhood in this valley, this was a valley of Democrats. They were all Democrats. And it was a blue collar valley because most everybody either had a father, a son, an uncle, someone that worked at Kennecott. And so this.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:12:31] It's really interesting that my adulthood has been, you know, swimming in republicanism and that. But yeah, that's how it was back when I was. When I was growing up. The other thing about that was the church rarely if ever entered into politics. You. That was always kind of the thing that it was you.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:12:53] The church would never say anything because it was up to you to make that decision. And they weren't going to tell us how to. How to vote or. And there was not even. You know, there's one thing to say something, then there's another thing to have that feeling like, you know, the unspoken rules. There weren't even unspoken rules.

John Dehlin [00:13:08] Unwritten order of things.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:13:09] Yeah, that didn't exist. You know, it was just. It was like that. But I don't know. I had a wonderful childhood. I loved where I grew up. I loved the people that I grew up with.

John Dehlin [00:13:23] Do you remember your spiritual life, like trying to find out if the church was true, like wondering about that stuff. Was that in your teen years? Was that even a thing?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:13:31] Yeah, I went and I walked to church and went to church, but I knew the church was true because my grandmother said it was. And that's how she lived her life. And when I went to church, I always felt like that's where I was supposed to be. I went by myself and my two younger brothers. Was this 60s, basically, and my brothers underneath me. Yeah, I used to pay them to go to church or to go to seminary. I wanted them to go. I was going to save my family, my brothers.

John Dehlin [00:14:02] Your younger brothers? You'd pay them to go to church,

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:14:04] to go to seminary? Yes, and my dad and mom kind of encouraged them to go, I think up until they were about 12. And then my brothers never went anymore. And then my sister, we're nine years apart, she always attended church. And then My younger brother below him never went to church.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:14:24] And then. So as a teenager, I loved. It was called mutual at the time. I loved mutual. I had fabulous teachers. I grew up in the era of, you know, you nail a board or commit sin, you know, you can repent and pull the nail out, but there's always the hole or the gum chewing or all of those things. Those were stories that were accepted fully and believed. And you just. You. You always. So when someone made a mistake or you heard about someone doing something, you always thought, you know, too bad they've got that hole in the board. And I've been very happy to see different official places disavow that. Although my granddaughter had a lesson about the gum not even a month ago.

John Dehlin [00:15:18] Sure, sure.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:15:19] Still residue passed out the gum. And then my granddaughter said, that's not right, as the people were chewing the gum and saying, no, would you want it. Would you want this gum after it's already been chewed? So it's still out there in pockets and it's.

John Dehlin [00:15:33] So you grew up with that?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:15:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:35] So was there a. Was there like a 60s hippie influence?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:15:39] Oh, yeah. Oh, oh.

John Dehlin [00:15:40] So like marijuana was there like free sex, free love?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:15:44] Well, you know, I was isolated from all of that because I had a very conservative parents and 50s. But when the Beatles came, I was in the fifth grade and everybody went nuts with the Beatles. And that's when everything changed. And the Beatles were fabulous. And that's when my generation started growing their hair out long, you know, and that would last all through my high school years. I mean, there were. I know there were families that disavowed their children over hair and those kinds of things. Drugs.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:16:16] I think there were a few. The major things to rebel with were booze and cigarettes. You know, you'd smoke behind the school or you'd be found, you know, the class that have a keger or things like that. But actual drugs and things didn't really enter into school until I was a senior, but also when I was a senior in high school. Some started earlier, I know, with different things, but when I was a senior in high school, the last semester of my senior year, I got to wear pants. I wore dresses through school my entire life.

John Dehlin [00:16:57] I remember Christine talking about that. That was a big deal.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:17:00] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:17:00] Women wearing pants we had to wear. It was a big deal.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:17:03] It was. And our legislature in our high school had voted that women could. That the girls in the student body could now wear legislation, wear pants. And it was like. It was crazy. There were so many rules about Those kinds about how you looked and how you acted and. And it was all about outside stuff.

John Dehlin [00:17:25] What about Coca Cola?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:17:26] Coca Cola. I. I don't know. I could drink Coca Cola. I never had that kind of caffeine. Wasn't that big.

John Dehlin [00:17:32] Was David O. McKay your prophet?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:17:33] Basically, yes.

John Dehlin [00:17:34] Do you remember him?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:17:35] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:17:36] Do you remember having any feelings, like, towards him? Like.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:17:39] Yes, I thought he was magnificent. I thought he was a beautiful man to look at. He was beloved. I remember how people felt when David O. McKay was there. I've since read some things that break my heart a little bit. But, yeah, he was the man for the time, because I think television. There was more coverage on television. It was more. The face of the children. Church was now more out there at that time. And he was that. He was that beautiful, gentle soul that, you know. And then what? No other success compensates for failure in the home. And, you know, the things that he said were, I don't know.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:18:19] Pretty. Pretty. Yeah, that was. That was an interesting time. And I, you know, I remember those things. And as a young woman in mutual age and stuff, you know, I tried to do all of those things. And I used to always go stay with my grandmother on weekends, and I'd go to church with her, too, and do things with her.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:18:45] Then when I was about 18, my grandma was a bit of a workhorse, and I remember one time stopping by the church to say hello to her because I knew she was in charge of a big banquet and she was a phenomenal cook. Everyone knew about her. And she was a phenomenal quilter as well. And she quilted for lots of famous families here in the valley. She would do these quilts. And I remember standing there waiting to talk to my grandmother and give her a hug. And these women were coming in and out from the kitchen into the auditorium or into the gym, and they were saying, oh, Sister Whitehead, she's going to be the death of me.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:19:21] She's working us. We have to do this perfectly. We have to do this perfectly. And they were just kind of complaining and. And I'm standing there like this just in time for Grandma to come over and give me a hug and say, hi, Kimmy dear, how are you? And I remember looking at these girls, you know, thinking they probably wanted to crawl in a hole. And Grandma turned and walked away, and I went, I know just how you feel. She does the same thing to me. So I hope I made him feel a little bit better about that. But my grandmother was the center of my Mormon universe at that time, and Then Terri and I, we met when we were 17.

John Dehlin [00:19:55] High school.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:19:55] Mm. In high school. And we were. Our first date was to a seminary graduation at which I was going to be announced that my senior year I would be a seminary executive officer over the school. And so I had to have someone go with me as my date. And I asked Terry to go. And we were in the school library when I asked him. And as we started to talk, I think four hours, five hours went by, and it was just pretty stunning. I've yet to.

John Dehlin [00:20:37] What did you love about Terry?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:20:38] Forget that, because those four hours I sat there and I remember thinking, oh, my gosh, what a brain. I love the brain on this man. He had a. Ideas, he had dreams, he thought about the world. He was just that person. And I had never been around someone like him. And it was amazing. And we talked and we talked and we talked. And that basically, I think we're still talking. And that's always been really a wonderful side of our relationship. The. He planned on going on a mission. And so we're like, let me think. There's something. There was something else I wanted to say about the 60s. It was also. Civil rights had occurred.

Meeting Terry and Early Married Life

John Dehlin [00:21:34] Yeah.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:21:35] That was very, very difficult.

John Dehlin [00:21:37] So by 68, Robert Kennedy had been assassinated, Martin Luther King had been assassinated. Right.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:21:44] And we were still in the dark ages in the church. And as a kid, you know, exploring. At that age, you're exploring ideas in the world and you're seeing these things. And my parents raised us. I don't ever recall. You know, memories are. You can recall. I mean, memories are.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:22:06] They're already being deconstructed as you. Just five minutes after you've had them. Right. But I don't recall coming out of life with my parents with any prejudices at all, ever, at anything. In fact, it was kind of like we just had to be decent to everyone. I mean, there was always that feeling. I don't remember. My father said lots of jokes that were not politically correct, and as he got hold of those, things were corrected. But as far as any kind of prejudice, I never felt that. So when all this was going on and then the church would not allow black men to hold the priesthood.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:22:42] That was a bit. That was hard. That was hard. And so anyway, so Terry gets called on a mission, he goes to Mexico, and Terry actually served one of those missions that I think Mormon men dream about. He had probably.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:23:05] One of the kindest, dearest, smartest mission president who truly believed that, when, in fact, he said it many times when his boys were given to him in the mission field. They were his for the rest of his life. He felt a stewardship toward those young boys at the time. And he was a maker of men. He was just a kind, loving, fun, spiritual man.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:23:43] Rather than send a missionary home, he would do everything he could to rehabilitate a missionary. He was always conscious of taking care of the soul of that person. And Terry was really lucky to be in that place at that time.

John Dehlin [00:23:57] Are you comfortable sharing his name, the Mr. President, or would you rather.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:24:00] Yes, it's J. Marlon Walker, President Walker from Henderson, Nevada. And I don't know anybody from Henderson or Las Vegas that doesn't know President J. Marlon Walker, who recently just lost his wife a year ago, which was. Her name was Colleen. And. And they know all of my children. They know their names. They'd probably know my grandchildren if they were around them, because those are the kind of people that they were. And they have loved my husband unconditionally and me for all of these years.

John Dehlin [00:24:43] Wow.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:24:46] He's loved everyone. I don't know anyone that he hasn't. President Walker taught Harry Reid the gospel, and he was later baptized. In fact, I just read an article that Harry Reid had written about something and talked about this person who was instrumental in his life for making his life so wonderful. And he has an elementary school named after him. I think he speaks four or five languages.

John Dehlin [00:25:13] Wow.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:25:14] He was an instructor at basic high school, and BYU asked him to come to byu, and he chose to stay in basic and teach students there. And there's generation of students that dearly love that man. So Terry hit the jackpot when it came to that. And also the friendships that he made in the mission field at that time continued to be friends of ours to. To this day.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:25:41] And so it was an absolutely fabulous time for him. It was a wonderful time for me. I dated my brains out because it was easy because I was already in love with Terry. So I just had to go over here and just do all those things until he got back. And I think it was a little bit of a challenge for some of them because it would be like, I'd say, well, you know, you can date me if you want to, but I'm in love with this guy. And. And it was like, oh, yeah, let me see what I can do about that. You know, sometimes there are a few things like that.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:26:11] But anyway, I really loved my time. I moved out, I got an apartment. My friends that I made at that time, I had a friend named Leslie. And Leslie and I met when we were 12 years old and we are still friends.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:26:27] Dear best friends. I love Leslie and Pam and Claudia. I met when I was. And those friendships are still there. And they, as we get going in the conversation, there will be more to add to that one. But anyway, Terry comes home from his mission, his mission president.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:26:52] Back then they didn't have the tubes going out to the planes. They got off the plane on the Runway and then they walked up into the airport. And Terry's mom and dad were there at the airport. And I told George, I said, I'm just going to stand over here and let you guys have him first and let his family have him. And then when you're ready, you let me know. And he said, okay. He used to call me sis. And he'd go, okay. He said, we'll do that. So I went to Adrian and Emily's, the store downtown. And I had a beautiful red hat with a beautiful red plum.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:27:26] I had my navy blue wedgies on and my miniskirt, because miniskirts were the big thing. And all I could do is imagine when I saw him taking my hat off. I know it sounds really silly, but anyway, so I see him get off the plane. He's of course the last one off the plane. All the missionaries, they like to hold back and be the last ones off the plane back then. And so he's getting off the plane and I look at him and I thought I was going to die.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:27:55] I'm just waiting. And I look over at George and George goes get him and let me go first. That was George. And I shot like a bullet. And Terri and I met like this, you know, and he gave me a hug and then he said. And then he tilted me down, you know, like, what is that called when they drop you down like this? And he's looking at me and he said, my mission president told me to come home and kiss you and let you know there's still some steam steaming the old engine.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:28:27] And he started kissing me and then he stopped and he goes, oh, but I can't kiss you. And I said, what? He says, I've got a cold sore. And I said I could care less. And I got one kiss and then he brought me up, but it was all for drama because he was still a missionary. And back then they didn't have the rules about those kinds of things. Like now you can't touch them until they get released, much less kiss them like that, you know. So anyway, but everybody greeted him. We went to Terry's parents house and he couldn't spend more than five minutes talking to me. He felt so uncomfortable talking to me.

John Dehlin [00:29:06] What?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:29:07] Yeah. So I just watched him as he'd move around the room and saying hi to the neighbors and to family and friends and everything. And then he'd come over and he'd go, I really want to talk to you. But he just, you know, it was just so nerve wracking for him. So then he'd go and do something else. And then when?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:29:25] Oh, about a week later, I was up in my apartment and before he'd left in the mission field, I had a 1970 Camaro with a white top, fire engine, red, black and white houndstooth. It was such a great car. And one time he borrowed my car and he brought it back to me two days later. And when I got in the car, he pushed in an eight track that he had bought me. The eight track player that he bought and had it installed. But the tape he put in was the carpenter's close to you. Yeah, I'm really dating myself here. And we listened to that.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:30:01] Well, so now he's in my apartment. I got a new stereo while he was gone. You know, he's sitting back here on the couch. I go, I've got something for you to hear. So I walk over to my new stereo, push in, the carpenter's close to you. Turn around, and he's gone. He's not on the couch. He's gone. He ran.

John Dehlin [00:30:21] He ran away.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:30:23] He ran out there. But there were no cell phones. There were nothing like that. So it's like, I'm like, what's going on here? And later he told me, later he called me when he got home and he just said, I just couldn't sit there. I've been a missionary for too long.

John Dehlin [00:30:36] A little too hot. I didn't know things were a little too.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:30:39] What kind of designs you had for me?

John Dehlin [00:30:40] And I said things were a little too steamy.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:30:43] Yeah, it was just really kind of. That was really kind of fun. So we laughed about that. Three years.

John Dehlin [00:30:48] So how long until you were married?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:30:50] We were married. We were 22.

John Dehlin [00:30:52] So you waited how long from him getting home? Just a year.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:30:57] Yeah, because it was. Yeah, 22. And then we.

Temple Marriage and Church Involvement

John Dehlin [00:31:02] Mary in the temple.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:31:03] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:31:04] So were your parents able to attend?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:31:06] Okay, that's the hard part. I cry about President Walker. Now I'm going to cry about my parents. That was very, very, very difficult because I remember my bishop telling me, well, they've had 22 years to think about this. They knew what they had to do if they wanted to be there at your wedding. They knew what they had to do.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:31:27] And I remember thinking, well, okay, I guess that must be how it is, you know? And then I remember thinking, well, this is just one of my trials that I have to face, that I have to go in the temple and see, back then, there was no honor or dignity for those people waiting outside the temple. They sat on the planter boxes. That annex that is there, I think that was put in, what, during the Olympics.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:31:54] So there wasn't even a dignified place to sit and wait while your children were inside. So it was like all kinds of sadness all the way around for family. And I remember that was the first time I felt like I was choosing to be obedient.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:32:13] And that's when obedience kind of started meaning something where you had to choose to do something to show your faith, your obedience. This hard thing was that I had to let my parents sit outside. And I did get to do something fun, though, that night at the reception we had, instead of Terry walking me, well, my dad walked me down the aisle. We had it set up like a.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:32:45] We couldn't have it set up like a reception or like a wedding reception, because they said you couldn't do anything that looked like it was a mockery of the temple ceremony. Yeah, okay, so we were limited. So you couldn't do a ceremony or anything like that. But my dad walked me to Terry, and my dad lifted my vow instead of Terry, and my dad kissed me and gave me to Terry. And then we had a song, and so it was a really nice way, so my dad got to walk me down the aisle.

John Dehlin [00:33:14] That's nice. So.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:33:14] So we did that, and that was really nice. And, you know, my parents were proud of me. They weren't, but it was sad. My mother, at the end of her life, when she talked about different things that she had regrets for, that was one of hers, that she couldn't be there after all those years. All those years, you know, so it was still. Again, my parents. I'm still feeling that rub that I had to choose. When I was a kid, I had to choose because I had inactive parents. And now I'm getting married in the temple, and I've got to choose again.

John Dehlin [00:33:52] And Terry's parents went.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:33:54] And Terry's parents went. Yeah, they were able to go. And so we had a wonderful reception, and we had a wonderful honeymoon up in Jackson Hole. We came back and Terry started school at the University of Utah. And at that time, that was the first time when he was at the uc See, My job at that point was to support Terry. School was never an issue for me. My job was to be the wife and to start making babies and go this way. And, you know, I don't regret that. I just wish that there had been more of a choice or I wish that women didn't feel like that was the only alternative.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:34:44] I know that there were women that did not feel that way, but, you know, but in my world, you know, that was the thing. You married, you had babies, and you supported your husband. You got him educated. He got to get all these things so that your family would be, you know, taken care of. And very divided roles, very black and white roles.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:35:07] Your character was judged by the whiteness of your tile. You know, women's home, how their home looks. All of those things were all, you know, indications of how spiritual you were, how faithful you were, or how whatever. I don't know. Those are some of the pressures I think that women felt then. But anyway, so Terry's going to school, and I was working at the church office building in the graphic art department, and I had revamped.

John Dehlin [00:35:35] You didn't go to school?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:35:36] No, I didn't go to school.

John Dehlin [00:35:38] You worked for the church in the art department to put Terry through school. Nice.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:35:43] So anyway, I had revamped everything in the department, and I was going to teach them all what had happened so that everybody would know how it worked the next day. And my boss calls me in and he says, asks me to sit down, and he goes, kim, I need you to teach K everything that you know what you're going to tell everybody tomorrow. And I go, okay. Why? And he said, well, because he's going to do the presentation.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:36:17] And I remember sitting there not knowing what it was I was just hit with, but I knew I couldn't understand it. It didn't make sense to me. I didn't understand why I couldn't go make the presentation. It hadn't dawned on me at the time that it was because I was a female.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:36:40] And I go, well, I know everything. Why should I have to explain it to him? And I designed it. And he said, it'll just be better. And I could tell he felt a little awkward about it, but that's what he was going to do, and that's what he did. And life went on. And that was probably the first time I remember feeling like, okay, I'm different in the church.

John Dehlin [00:37:03] Kind of a tiny bit of a feminist awakening, a little bit different hadn't come yet.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:37:07] I felt the sting of it, but I had not learned the language yet. I just learned something was wrong or something was not right. You know, I remember asking this guy, we were walking to go to the. Go down to lunch. I said, oh, you're going down to lunch? And he said, yes. And I said, well, I'll join you.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:37:30] Instant freeze, you know, his whole body became stiff as a board. And I remember thinking, what's going on here? You know? And we got on the elevator, we go down. He can barely talk to me. We get downstairs, we go through the line, get our food, and he can barely talk to me. And I'm just thinking, this is so weird. I don't get this. And I go sit down at the table, and he sits right in front of me, and I'm trying to have a conversation with him, and he's very, very uncomfortable. Very uncomfortable. And that was then I started learning the rules about men and women, and men and women don't have friendships, you know, because at the time, I didn't know why.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:38:09] I've got my own views on it now, but at the time, it was like, okay, there's this natural separation because now I'm a married woman and stuff. You start feeling these things that you don't know quite what they are, but they just don't feel right.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:38:25] And so I started feeling that then. But then I got pregnant and took us two years longer than that, actually. And we didn't know if we were going to be able to have children. And then I got pregnant. And in fact, the night that Terry was telling his mission president that we were finally going to have a baby was at that same moment I realized I was losing the baby.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:38:55] And so it was a very hard experience. And went to the hospital because I was going in my. And so I had to go through the hospital and go through that. But I remember at the time that was probably.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:39:17] I don't know, those kinds of things didn't discourage me. But I also missed the message that God did things to us. I didn't think God did things to us.

John Dehlin [00:39:29] Right.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:39:30] You know, but a lot of people say, well, you know, God did this to you and this. But yield.

John Dehlin [00:39:35] And I not always test you or to strengthen you.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:39:37] Funny. Like, I don't know that God's doing that to me. Does that mean he does this to other people? And I don't know. That just always was kind of hard for me to accept. But I also believed that God was with me and God would love me and help me through this. That I felt like it was more of an experience of life, but that God was there for me, you know, instead of God did this to me and to teach me something. I don't know, that was always a real hard one for me. So anyway, we had that and then experience, and like six weeks later, I'm pregnant and I have Jared. And then every two years we had a child and all the J's came. There's Jared and Jenny and Josh And John and J.C. so five. Yep, five of them. And.

John Dehlin [00:40:29] And how many of that. That's like he went to law school, right? At byu. So between the U of U and the end of byu, how many kids?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:40:39] Well, let me see. We had one at the U. One, two. Two in law school. And then we came back and had two in Bolivia.

John Dehlin [00:40:51] Okay, so that two came in Bolivia. Okay, we're getting.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:40:53] Now let me tell you something Terry did about BYU law school. He only wanted to go to BYU law school. We had worked for a congressman back in Washington, D.C. when we were first married, and he had heard about this law school the church was putting together, byu. And he listened to Dean Lee, Rex Lee speak. He was the Solicitor General at the time, and he was speaking about he was going to put together this. This law school and who was going to be the teachers there and blah, blah, blah. And Terry met up his mind that's where he was going to go. And so he.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:41:32] When it came time to apply to law schools, most people turn, you know, put out 10 admissions or applications, and he did one. One because he wanted to go to BYU, and he did one to BYU. And then when he got a rejection letter, it was really hard.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:41:53] Turns out, though, he wasn't rejected at all. Half of his file went to byu. The other half went to the actual law school. So his file was incomplete, and it was rejected based on incomplete. Well, when they found out the problem, they put it all together. He went to Dean, I think it was Dean Hanson at the time. And Dean Hanson, when Terry was admitted to the Supreme Court, Dean Hanson took the attorneys back for that. And he remembered Terry, Terry during that time. And he said, that was Terry's first case. He officially won. Because when Terry put the evidence all together, he said, look at this.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:42:26] Would I have been offered a chance to come to the school? And he said, absolutely. Then I demand entrance. And basically he said, well, you won't have an office, you won't have a few things, because they'd given them all out. Terry said, I don't care. We governed our life to get to that point. And. And anyway, he ended up having everything that he wanted. And he was at BYU Law School. I think he was the second graduating class. But it was like during. Some of the greatest teachers ever in the law were at byu.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:42:59] In fact, I think his name was Woody Deam, and he's the one that wrote the book Criminals are Stupid. He had like a 98% conviction rate in Ventura County. Just this attorney did not want to come to BYU and teach. And I think they asked him several times, and the rumor was that he finally came after he was called to come to Provo to teach. And I think he ended up living his life there in Provo. But there were just some really. He just had. Again, he had this wonderful missionary experience. Has this great experience in the law school with.

John Dehlin [00:43:39] Now he went to school with someone whose name we might recognize.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:43:43] Denver Snuffer. Yeah. Denver was in the same class as Terry. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:43:47] And they were buds.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:43:49] Absolutely. And they're friends to this day. Yeah. In fact, there were three. There was Mike Eldredge and Denver Snuffer and Terry. And in fact, Denver couldn't afford to take the. The bar Study course. It was a course that you pay and they help you study for the bar. So Terry helped tutor Denver with that. And they were very good friends. We have some very wonderful memories of that time. It was nice. And we were very, very active. We were active down in Provo. We were in an older ward at that time.

Family Service and Life in Bolivia

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:44:23] Terry was called to be a bishop at 28. No, he was called to a. No. A counselor in the bishopric at 28. Or younger than that in Sugar House. And because of that, he was set apart as a high priest.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:44:41] So our entire married life, we were in the high priest quorum, which when we left Sugar House and the young people, members of the church there. When we hit Provo, he introduced himself. I think for the first five weeks he was in the quorum at Provo because we were in an old Provo ward. And they kept forgetting who he was. So he had to reintroduce himself. And he brought the average age of the quorum down to 73.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:45:10] So that was kind of fun. And then back then, they gave women degrees. Phts for putting hubby through. That always bothered me a little bit. There were just things. But we had kids there and came back to Salt Lake. He worked for a law firm in Murray, decided he didn't like private practice that much or working for a firm. And then after that, we ended up starting our journey in Bolivia.

John Dehlin [00:45:45] And that was a pretty important part of your family life. And probably your church life. Right. What stories would you want to tell from your time in Bolivia that would relate to your. Let's just say, your Mormon journey, your Mormon transition, good and bad. Right.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:46:05] I found my savior in Bolivia.

John Dehlin [00:46:08] What do you mean?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:46:10] Because here, working in a ward, I was basically helping people that were privileged, had all of their wants being met, had access to good schools, good food, work, all of those things. And to go to Bolivia, first place Terry came home, he was a bishop at the time, and he just felt like he needed to go. A company had offered him a job there, and I had never been out of this country. I didn't speak Spanish, nothing. And so going to Bolivia, I left with Jared and Jenny and Josh, and I was pregnant with Jonathan. And so when I got to Bolivia, I didn't know what to expect at all to. Terry had been there several times, but I didn't know what to expect. And it was an interesting experience in that it was the second poorest country in this hemisphere, Haiti's number one. Bolivia was number two.

John Dehlin [00:47:24] Right. Wow. So in all of central South America,

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:47:28] third World country was an experience in and of itself. But we were in a beautiful area in a town called Calicoto, which is in the south zone of Bolivia, La Paz. You land at the airport about 13,000ft. When you go to the edge of the meseta, you look down into the city and the mountains go like this, in a V. And La Paz is down here in the valley, and there's housing, houses, millions of houses on this side and millions of houses on this side. And in La Paz, you can only go to the edge of that road, and then you have to turn around and come back.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:48:03] There's no way out of that valley where the city is nestled. And the first time I saw the city of La Paz, it was one of the most beautiful cities I've ever seen. And so being there, and we were in a ward that was mixed.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:48:23] They call them white Bolivians, and they're the Bolivians that have money and have the ability to basically live in nice houses and have staffs and do all those things. And then there was the indigenous population of Bolivia, and they didn't mix.

John Dehlin [00:48:42] Yeah.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:48:43] I remember when the first time racial

John Dehlin [00:48:45] stratification is super severe in Latin America.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:48:48] We had a. This is back in the 80s, but we had a gringo bishop, and he called a Bolivian, a white Bolivian, for lack of a better word. And an indigenous Indian as his counselor, Felix Mamani. And so the stake president set apart Bishop Snedeker and Then his counselor set apart the first counselor and the other counselor was supposed to set apart the new president Mamani. And he said no. He says, my hands will never touch an Indian.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:49:29] This was in the church, right? So that wasn't. That was really difficult. To his credit, 20 years later, for the second time we were in Bolivia, he apologized and realized that it was just, I guess when you know better, you do better, you know, it was kind of the consciousness, that's what Oprah says. And he did, and he did.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:49:51] So I'll just throw that in there too, and stuff. So there were lots of things like that and the wards not mixing, because ward boundaries are the same like here, so you get all kinds. And they weren't used to that. That was one of the hardest things for members of the Church of Bolivia to be thrown in with people that you didn't talk to normally during the course of the week. And then we had a lot of American families there and they wanted to form an English speaking branch.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:50:21] And they asked us, we had, you know, there were seven of us, and we said, no, no, no. We wanted to be in our little Bolivian ward. We wanted to. In fact, that's the thing we encouraged with our kids when we went to Bolivia is you don't. When you go anywhere that's not your home, you shouldn't compare the experiences that with home or with a better way of life or whatever, because you miss out on the richness of the culture. You miss out on learning about the people. You miss out on so many things. If you say, oh, why do they make food this way?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:51:02] Or why did they do this in the government? Because of this. And why did they do this? Culturally, there's all these things that you could pick up apart, literally. And then you miss all the beautiful things about being in another culture and enjoying another group of people in another language.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:51:19] So we always encouraged our kids to just jump in and to be part of that. So to be asked to go be in an English speaking ward with Americans, it was like, yuck, no, we can get that when we go home. No. And why would we want our children not to know these people and be with these people? And so that part was. That was no question for us.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:51:41] So we served. Jared served in the orphanages. My kids worked in the orphanages. There were orphanages everywhere. We worked in the ward. Like if you stopped and got an ice cream for the kids. And I used the term ice cream loosely. There were no supermarkets when I was in Bolivia. I bought everything from the Indians down, down by the river.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:52:01] I take these big canastas or big baskets, and I'd hire these little boys to pack them for me. And I would buy all of my food fresh and put it in the canastas and then go home. And you would wash them with. It's called. You would. Yoda. Your fruits and vegetables. And it was iodine, bleach.

John Dehlin [00:52:21] Right?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:52:21] Iodine. And something else. So it would, you know.

John Dehlin [00:52:23] So amoebas killing.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:52:25] Yeah, it'd kill all that stuff. Because American kids eat out of the fridge. So I had to make sure everything that went in the fridge was okay for them to eat and things like that. But they would. What was I telling you? No supermarkets. Where did I get to?

John Dehlin [00:52:43] You were talking about, I don't know, cooking food. No, you were talking about.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:52:51] Oh, getting ice cream.

John Dehlin [00:52:52] Ice cream?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:52:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:53] Okay, Ice cream in quotes.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:52:55] So my kids were like, eight, six, four, you know, and then little. And so they run around those ages and they would eat their ice cream, and when they were through with it, and, you know, if you're here in the States, you would take the ice cream and just throw it away. You never threw food away. You take the ice cream and you'd find a child on the street, and you'd give a child that ice cream. If you went to a restaurant, you never threw your food away. Thanksgiving dinner, I did the same thing that my parents did.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:53:25] We invited everyone who had ever had a Thanksgiving dinner to our home. And Sometimes we had 50 people in our home for Thanksgiving dinner. And afterwards, I remember I had a doctor that was there that was Bolivian, that practiced, Learned his medicine at Johns Hopkins and was back in Bolivia. And his wife was the cook for the president of Bolivia. She was the main chef. And we had lots of different kinds of people that would come to these family things. And they were always fascinated by our Mormonism. And so anyway, we were in the kitchen, and I was cleaning all the plates off, and I had the food that was left over that I could put in the fridge and we could eat later.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:54:12] Right. Then I had the plate where I was scraping all the plates off so I could wash the dishes. And the chef, she came up to me and she said, what are you doing with that food? And I said, well, I'm going to throw it away. I mean, it looked like a big pile of food right from everybody's plates. And she said, oh, no. Oh, no, may I have it? And I said, yes. She says, I will take it to the orphanage.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:54:38] So I said, oh, just like. Of course. And I remember Getting my baggies out and filling the food in there. And there were just so many experiences like that that I can't begin to tell you where. It was pure service, it was pure love. It was pure human beings, just no rules. You just loved each other and took care of each other and were each other's keepers.

John Dehlin [00:55:06] What role did you and Terry play in the wards? Were there branches, were there ramas or what?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:55:10] No, it was a full on ward. And he was the bishop.

John Dehlin [00:55:13] He was Obispo.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:55:14] Uh huh. Obispo. Obispo Turner. And he was on the head council as well. And he was. Yeah, we did everything. We served. Chapels in Bolivia have volleyball courts, and the children literally live within the confines of the walls of the chapel.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:55:35] And every night of the week, there was something going on for young people over there, and we would be over there. When I landed. The first time I landed, it happened to me twice. But the first time I landed, the bishop called me in and I'd been there three weeks, and he called me to be the Relief Society president. And I just looked at him like I was aghast. I didn't speak any Spanish. And I said, but, Bishop, I don't speak Spanish. And he just said, you will.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:56:01] Wouldn't let me say no. And so I. So I cried. Every day, every Sunday for six months, I learned sign language. What's really funny is the Bolivian sisters, they have this thing where they feel like they need to let you know about all the gossip in the word so that you can understand the word on a much better level, much deeper level. And so they would come and they'd sit down, they'd say they want to tell me this story or tell me this thing about so and so. And I'd go, okay. And I'd sit there, they would tell me everything, and they just didn't know. I didn't understand a word that they were saying. But I'd go, oh, no, my dear. And I learned little phrases and little

John Dehlin [00:56:39] things that I could say.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:56:41] And they would leave and they would feel so happy because now I understood the ward so much better and understood them. And it was kind of an interesting. That was an interesting time. And that happened to me the second time I went back, too. So that was fun. In Bolivia, if you die in your ward, the Relief Society president is in charge of preparing your body.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:57:07] So. And I always prayed for the health of my ward because I wanted to do that and because, you know, because the family embalms. But when you're in the church, the Relief Study Would usually take the bodies, prepare the bodies, and do all those things. If you break an arm or a leg, you have to be bring all the equipment for the cast, for everything to the doctor, and then they.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:57:32] They fix it. And I remember this one night, Terry came home and he said. He came home and he had a cast on his arm and he had band aids on his head. And the kids looked at him and said, dad, what happened to you? What's the matter? I go, terry, what happened? He goes, sit down. I've got to tell you all about this. So we're all on this couch. We're all just sitting there, looking up at Terry's standing there, and he goes, hey. And he tells this story about walking down the road and getting hit by a micro. A bus, a small bus, and this whole story and everything.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:58:04] And they're all going, oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, dad. You know, and everything. And then finally, Terry stops and he goes, ha, ha ha. April fools. April fools. It didn't really happen. And the kids just sat there like this, and they look at each other like this, and they look at dad and they go, it's March 31st, dad.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:58:26] What? It's not April Fool's Dad. That's tomorrow. He missed the date. So they all thought that was funny. And so then they loved what Terry had done, so they had to go out to the pharmacy, and Terry made casts for all three of the kids to go to school with broken arms so they could go for April Fools. But the school that the kids went to was fabulous. We were.

What the Church Meant to the Family

John Dehlin [00:58:51] Any other stories about what the church meant to your family while you were born?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:58:55] Well, the church, we were known in La Paz as the family to contact when people came into La Paz. Any visitors that would go into the major hotels, the Radisson, the Plaza, big hotels like that, they would say, do you know where the local church is? Or something like that. And they'd go, oh, you need to meet the Turner family. The hotels always called us. We had so many people that we had at our dinner table because they. They knew that we were that family to do that. So that was part of it. The first time I went to Bolivia, we got to know the missionaries, the incredible, incredible missionaries that were serving at that time.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:59:37] Bolivia was a very tough mission. There was lots of diseases. They were sick. I A hard mission because of the altitude. Soroche was very difficult. It was all very difficult. But we're still dear friends with some of those missionaries that we knew back then.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:00:00] Try to think about the. There's One experience that I'll tell you about, that we were there. We were downtown one time, and we had just walked out of a restaurant, had called a cab. We were on the plaza, and the cab had just pulled up, and Terry was going to put me in the cab when he felt something touch his arm.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:00:23] And he turns around and there's a transgender individual standing there. And in Bolivia at that time, no one came out. To come out would be to risk death or injury or severe beatings, things. It was. You just didn't. You didn't talk about that. So to see this person. And after he touched Terry, he stood back like this, you know, one of the untouchables.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:00:57] And when he touched Terry's arm, he said, obispo. And then he stood back. And so Terry knew it was someone that had been in our ward. And he turns around and he looks at him, and he says, the guy said to Terry, I'm sorry, but I'm really down on my luck, and I don't have any money.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:01:19] Can you spare any money for me? And Terry said, yes. And he reached in his pocket and got some pesos out. But when he went to give it to him, Terry took his hand and pulled him close and put his arms around him and held him, didn't say anything.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:01:44] And I just stood there and watched. And then after he hugged him, he turned and he walked away, and Terry got in the cabin. We didn't say one word all the way home that night, because what can you say after an experience like that?

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:02:03] We were in a car one time with one of my cousin's former husband who had served a mission in Guatemala. And we were going down the road, and he was in the front seat, and my husband was in the front seat, and me and the kids were in the back.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:02:22] We stopped at a light, and there are beggars everywhere in Bolivia. There are beggars here. You just can't see them because they don't wear the clothing of a beggar. But there are beggars everywhere. And he said, here, I want to show you guys how we handled the beggars in Guatemala while I was on my mission.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:02:42] And the guy put his hand up and he pushed the door open and knocked him out of the way. And we, my kids and I, in the back, all of us went. My kids gasped, you know. And I'm looking at Terry, who's in front and looking at the kids, and Terry just gently says, well, we'll show you how we handle the beggars here in Bolivia. And my kids immediately jumped out. They always packed pesos in their pockets, always. And immediately gave pesos to this beggar. And so at every turn, I just. We just felt like, you know, we just felt the love of what we felt like Christ had always emulated.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:03:28] There were no church politics. There was no things like that. Well, there kind of was. The stake president kind of ruled the roost and told the members what to do. I think he had a little bit of unrighteous dominion going on there, but who's to say It's a third world war and he had problems that he had to deal with and things that way, but it was just. Yeah, it was. My heart is in Bolivia. The church was so amazing there.

Part 2 of 4 · Ep. 702

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:00:29] And then coming home was a shock. And we came home here 20 years ago, and in a war, they really didn't need us. I mean, there were clones of us everywhere, you know, which is good. I mean, that's not something to complain about, but it was like we missed being able to be so involved in that way. Now at that time, Kyle, you need to start asking me questions because I just meander here.

Josh Coming Out as Gay

John Dehlin [00:01:06] No, so let's just say. Let's just say that this first segment, we're at about an hour, and this segment's going to be kind of representing your faithful time. So what other stories do you think are really important for the listeners to know to sort of capstone your faithful Mormon experience?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:01:27] Well, one of the things if we're going to before this time is, you know,

John Dehlin [00:01:34] so next episode will be your faith challenges.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:01:39] My third son, we could kind of tell as a teenager that he was a little different and thinking, could Josh be gay? But then you go, nah. And then you go back and forth that you kind of know, but you kind of don't. And basically at that time, I really didn't have any feelings about that one way or the other.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:02:07] I had not been around that many gay people. And then I. But then my boss, when I first started working at 18, she was. She was a lesbian, but I knew she was a lesbian, but I didn't know what that meant.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:02:23] You know, you just didn't question anything, I guess, you know, and unless somebody was really open about things. But it was a great experience. And all the gay people, when I thought about it up to that point that I'd ever been around, were wonderful human beings.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:02:37] I had a guy that has done my hair now for years and years and years, and he was one of the first people. And I even told Ron, I said, you're one of the reasons why I had such good experience and good formation, because you were such a good person. That's all I had to go from because I never got anything negative from my parents. And at the time, the world really that I lived in didn't talk about things very much. I just had these experiences going along and stuff. And then.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:03:04] But then when he was 18 and confirmed to us that you don't know for sure until they tell you, and they don't know for sure until they say it. And he told Terry first, and then he was coming home here to tell me, and we went upstairs and sat in the chair and I remember thinking, what am I going to say? What am I going to say? What am I going to say, because I knew it was really important that I say the right thing and how did I feel?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:03:36] And so when he was sitting there and he told me and stuff, and I said, welcome to the world. I've been watching you as a square peg, try to fit in a round hole all of your life. I'm so glad you know who you are.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:03:55] And I felt love for him. I didn't feel anything. But then it was like, oh, now what are we going to do? And you go through a period of time, because then that's church. We were active, believing, faithful, committed in members.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:04:16] And now all of a sudden, we've got this problem. But see, at the time, it was still kind of. It was interesting because people would ask, well, what are we going to do? Or all this stuff. And I remember thinking, what do you mean, what are we going to do? You know, life goes on. I mean, I didn't know I had to do something. Right. Because 20 years ago, it was a choice in the church. You know, it was Dallin Oaks was saying things like, don't let your kids around.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:04:46] You're gay members. Don't. You know, everybody was getting kicked out of their houses. There was all of this going on. And I remember thinking, oh, my gosh, you know, if we kicked Josh out, that would destroy my family.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:05:01] Not keeping him in my family. I mean, I didn't get that. I didn't get that rhetoric at all. People have asked me why Terri and I were like that, but I don't know how else to explain it. I don't know. We just felt he was my son. I loved my child, I knew my child, and I felt. And that was around.

John Dehlin [00:05:20] What year was this?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:05:21] This was. Oh, he was 18. He's 36, so about 18. Oh, it's been about 18, 19.

John Dehlin [00:05:27] So around 2000.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:05:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:29] And it was like after Magic Johnson.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:05:33] Yeah. Oh, you know, speaking of Magic Johnson, that was interesting because Magic Johnson came on television and my kids were into basketball and all that stuff. And he did a press conference and he said something. He said, God gave me this disease, and I'm going to do all I can to be helpful to other people who have it and to help and to do this and blah, blah, blah, you know. And I remember sitting there looking at that, and I remember I walked over, turned the TV off, and I turned around and looked at my kids.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:06:06] I said, God didn't give him that disease. He gave it to himself. By his behavior and his actions in his life, he created that problem. God didn't I said, now, is God going to be with him? Yes. Is God going to help him? Yes. I believe that. I believe that. But this. No, this is wrong.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:06:24] It didn't work for me. God didn't give anything to Josh to overcome either. He didn't do any of those things. Josh is Josh. That's who he is and how he was born. And I remember that was so hard and trying to figure that and the church out.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:06:39] And then with. I remember I called this woman up who had a beauty salon, and I knew her son worked there, and I knew her son was gay because I couldn't talk to anyone. There wasn't anyone you could talk to. And I called her one day and I said, can I come and talk to you? And she said, yes. I said, I'm a stranger, and I know you have a gay son.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:07:05] I just want to talk to somebody, and I want to talk to a mother. She said, come over. And I went over. We went at the top of her business there, and we sat there and I just asked her questions and how it was.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:07:19] And I was really lucky because she loved her son and had accepted her son. It wasn't somebody telling me anything bad. And it was really nice to talk to someone and say that. I called a counselor one time and was talking to the counselor, and I made this appointment, and I said, I just want to come in and talk about some things. And she said, okay. And then before I hung up, I said, can I ask you a question?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:07:43] Yes. What do you think about homosexuality? And she said, oh, well, it. You know, it's an abomination. And she used words like pedophilia and even, oh, what's the animal one?

John Dehlin [00:08:01] Bestiality.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:08:02] Bestiality. She used these words, and I remember looking at my phone just horrified, and I'm going, oh, my gosh. And I put the phone back up to my ear, and I said, how long has it been since you were in school?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:08:17] She said, five years. I've been out five years. And I said, I think you need to go back to school. Why? I said, because I think you need to relearn some things. And then she said, does this mean that you're not coming in for counseling? I said, that's exactly what it means.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:08:34] And so, you know, I kind of felt like there weren't places for us to go. My children. My children. This is really an important story. You don't get very many opportunities to see your children being noble. And my children were noble. They were wonderful kids, and they were so good to Josh. But Josh asked me if I would tell John, Johnathan. And Jonathan's younger than Josh.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:09:10] And I said, okay. So I was in the car with Jonathan and Jonathan, I said to John, I said, john, Josh asked me to tell you something. Yes, he's gay. And John buried his head in his hands and started to sob.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:09:30] And he said, why has my life been. Been so easy and Josh is so hard? You know what I mean, about being noble? I mean, it's like he could have said, oh, why is my brother doing this to us? Anything. Completely loved him and accepted him and just had so much empathy for him.

John Dehlin [00:09:52] Do you connect any of that to your parents, their influence?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:09:58] Yeah, because I. It has to come from there and it has to. And I think I've just been surrounded by some really wonderful people in my life and decent, decent people. My dad, that's the story I wanted to tell you because my dad, born in the 30s, Air Force, baseball player, man, man's man, army guy, all that stuff. And Josh, my dad.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:10:25] Because my mother had to go to work when we were kids and they didn't want to get a babysitter. My mother would work nights and my dad would work days. So my dad had to learn how to cook.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:10:34] And I was always kind of a novelty because my dad cooked. And my dad would have my friends over and my dad would cook for my friends. Well, my dad always cooked. He cooked all of his life. And one of the funnest times you could have is going over to Meryl's kitchen and sitting down. And I don't care what was in the fridge, he just pulled it out, would make it and. And you would eat. And he.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:10:56] Anyway, so Josh, my kids were very close to my parents and he asked me and Terry if we would go out and tell my parents because he said I could not. I can't, I can't. I don't think I could handle it.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:11:12] My grandfather rejecting me. So we said okay. And it was really hard for me because even though my dad was really a good guy, he's still a product of his time. Times. I had no idea what to expect. And I really kind of knew my mother would be alright with it because that's how my mother was.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:11:28] And when we went and told him, I still remember, like when Kennedy died. I remember when Kennedy died. And I remember me here and Terri there and my dad there and my mother there. And we told them and my dad hung his head and he cried this deep, guttural cry that men cry, that you never hear that Sound and I had never heard before, and I thought.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:11:57] And then he lifted his head and he said in tears, you tell that grandson of mine that he will always be my grandson and that I will always love him and he can bring his friends here. And he goes.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:12:13] And then, of course, we're all crying now. And then he said, no, I don't want any of that mushy kissy stuff or anything like that. And he said, I tell the same. I tell Jenny and Jared that same thing, too. And I said, josh would never embarrass you or do anything like that. But until my dad died, Josh. My dad was Josh's advocate. And Josh never had to give anything up. And his whole family has been around. In fact, I think he had a therapist say one time that his family was his secret weapon.

Navigating a Gay Son's Future in the Church

John Dehlin [00:12:47] Did Josh serve a mission?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:12:49] No.

John Dehlin [00:12:49] So what was it like to have been a bishop multiple times, Relief Society president multiple times in the Gospel, to win it, 100% committed, full throttle. And then you've got a son. Where is he? In the order?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:13:03] Three? No, he's the second son out of three boys.

John Dehlin [00:13:07] Okay, so your number two son's not going on a mission, probably gonna be leaving the church and is gay. Like, what is that doing to, like, your. Your theology, your. Your beliefs, your standards, you know, your testimony. Like, how are you working through that? At the time, it.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:13:27] That. That was. That was the moment. Because, for one thing, it was hard because we knew we couldn't serve a mission. And. But, you know, he was raised to serve a mission, and he was raised to want a family. He was raised to have things. And I know those were some of his deepest sorrows, that he wouldn't be able to have a family in a traditional way and all of those things. And the thing is, though, he.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:14:02] What was I. I hope you can edit this. The hard part was trying to tell him after we'd told him all of his life to serve a mission. Now it had to change to, it doesn't matter. You don't have to serve a mission. We still love you, but the damage has been done in that, you know, you have to do. You know what I mean? It's like I've told parents now.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:14:37] You know, the thing with my parents, I think that they did really well was the fact that we were raised on principles. We weren't raised on rites of passage or things we had to do. So if we chose to get married in an LDS temple or chose to go to Vegas or whatever, it would be all right. Just as long as we had good principles and we were good people, my dad and mom expected us to be good people.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:15:03] Always to be. Always to be good people and to be kind people and those things. So there weren't any things we could fail at other than if we were miserable people, right? But sometimes in an LDS home, when you have all these rites of passage, and if they can't make one, how do you tell a kid they're okay? You know?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:15:23] Do you know what I mean? I think we need to go back to this principle thing. So if they choose to go on a mission, that's a good thing. If they don't, it's still a good thing because they've got everything that's important in their character and stuff like that instead of having. And so there we were, like, how do we do this? And this is very personal because I have to tell you, there's a movie called 20th Century Women. Women. It's just still out. Annette Benning's in it, and it's a fabulous movie.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:15:54] But there's one line in there that was really interesting in that she's talking to this girl that's dating her son, and she says to this girl, I envy you. I envy you because you get to see my son in real life.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:16:12] And I know what that means. You're a parent. Have you ever had moments? I've only had a couple where I can say I've seen my children in their real life acting like their real selves. Otherwise, they're my kid.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:16:26] They're like you expect them to be. But when you get a glimpse and you get to see them in real life, that is such an amazing thing. That doesn't happen very often. And, well, as I'm talking right now, I realize my kids are going to watch this and see mom in real life as I'm talking about things that I haven't talked about before.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:16:46] And I hope I'm doing it a service. I hope it's right and stuff. Forgive me if I have some things mixed up, but I'm explaining things in my real life that I was going through with Josh at the time, that I've never really explained to him how I felt about that. And I remember. So at the time, I started questioning, well, how does this fit with church? And how can I let Josh know that I love him just as much? That mission didn't matter. But I also realized, how do you unlearn that?

John Dehlin [00:17:23] Especially after the mission had been so formative? Right.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:17:26] They grew up on the lore of a Walker missionary. The lore of that mission, the things. Their father was an assistant for nine months. Their father had these amazing experiences. Jared went to Venezuela and had this fabulous mission. He didn't have the mission president, his dad did, but he had a wonderful, fabulous mission. And there are all these things, you know, and you're like, how do you say to your kids, okay, it's okay. You know, we don't measure you by that, you know, and stuff like that. So I think, you know, it's hard. And then it's like, I remember.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:18:01] I remember at the time, boy, this is really raw here. But as I'm analyzing everything, the church at that point had to be over here while I figured all of this out because I couldn't put the two together because it was like oil and water. How are we going to do this thing? But then we thought, no, I'm going to find the loopholes. Whatever has been revealed will yet be revealed. There's more coming, going to understand this, you know. And it was also, this is the great leading to the next chapter. It was also because that was the first time I ever said to myself, could the Brethren be wrong? Could the Brethren be wrong? Because I was right. I was his mother.

John Dehlin [00:18:52] Mother, love trumps prophecy

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:18:56] any day. If I remember at the time, thinking, at any time I will kneel before anyone and say I choose him,

John Dehlin [00:19:04] would you have told your bishop this, people in your ward?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:19:07] Yes. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:19:09] This wasn't some secret thing hidden under a bushel.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:19:11] But see, at the time, though, we kind of, you know, didn't talk because it wasn't a safe atmosphere to talk about this, because not only did we want Josh to marry, we wanted Josh to have a rich and full life. We never once said to him to be celibate. Never once.

John Dehlin [00:19:27] What do you mean marry? Marry a man or marry a man?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:19:29] Yeah, marry a man. Why would I want something different for him than I want for my other kids? I'd raise them all to be happy, to find love, to have fulfillment in their life. And yeah, it was going to be different and we had to learn new things. I had to mourn Terri and I had to mourn the daughter in law we would never have. We had to mourn the children, grandchildren we would probably never have. But we didn't mourn having him. It was just the dream changed a little bit for him, but we still had the same wishes for him that we had for our other kids, and we couldn't talk about that. In fact, at one point, Terry gave Josh a blessing because Josh was still trying to Figure everything out, too. And Terry gave him a blessing and released him from the church, from everything.

John Dehlin [00:20:24] Wow.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:20:25] And told him that we loved him, that he was ours, and that he blessed him as a father to be a good man, live a good life. And it was very, very profound for us. But I told one person, and I can't believe I'm saying this here. I told one person, and they said, you can't do that.

John Dehlin [00:20:47] Yeah, you can't do that. That's what my Mormon braid said. Use the priesthood to release someone from sin.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:20:54] That's unheard of. But, see, Terry just wanted him to know it was okay. We didn't know how to tell him it was okay. How do you do that? How do you do that? So that was the beginning. That was,

John Dehlin [00:21:14] uh.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:21:14] Oh, it's not like we thought it was, you know. And then I went through a thing as a mother that was very difficult because I remember thinking back, little things that Josh would do that I didn't understand. And so, like, he wanted to hang out with me in the kitchen, or he wanted to do little things with me. And I'd go, oh, Josh, don't you want to run outside and play? Don't you want to do this, do that? You know? And it was like I kind of felt like he wasn't acting the way he was supposed to act, but I didn't put my finger on it, you know, so.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:21:55] And then there were things that he would. Just little things that he would do, like when his dad would pull up to let the girls out, and then the guys would all walk in later, Josh would get out with the girls, and. And I'd go, josh, get back in the car. Dad. Walk in with dad.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:22:09] Just cute, funny things like that. But I also realized that those were messages being sent to him that his behavior wasn't right. And that broke my heart. I had to go through a period of time where, even though I never said things, there were things because I didn't know and stuff. So that's why in today's world, kids are growing up and parents can maybe see that their children might be headed that direction, you know, they can find. They can not have those messages. They can just. They can, you know, those. As you are educated and you understand how things are, We've got some family members that I wonder about, you know, and things that way, but.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:22:53] And you can. It's just so much more healthy. There was a movie, Love, actually, where Liam Nelson has a son, and the son's depressed. They've just lost their mother. His wife. And the son's been really depressed and he's really worried. It's really messing the son up. And he says.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:23:13] So he's sitting there talking with him on the bench and he says, you've been a little down lately or whatever. Is there something going on? And he says, is it about your mom or something like that? The scene was. And he says, no. He said, it's this.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:23:28] No, I'm in love, or something like that, you know. And he goes, the dad goes, is that what it is? You're in love? And he goes, well, who is him or her? And then the little boy said, oh, it's her and her name's Stella, or something like that. You know, I've totally messed up the scene. But the point was, I loved how the father just said, well, who is it? And just.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:23:51] It didn't matter. The kid didn't feel at that moment like whatever his choice was, it was going to be a good or a bad choice. You know what I mean? It was just a natural, organic conversation. I don't know.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:24:01] And I know that anybody that's listening to this is probably thinking, sister Turner's going to hell. But I'm sorry, but that's how I felt about it.

John Dehlin [00:24:08] That's great.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:24:09] I thought it was illuminating. More so all these things were coming together. Now that my. I love the church. I had a very strong testimony. There's a phrase I used to say that what I understand, I love. What I don't understand, I trust. So if I came up against something I didn't get, I would just trust that God was in charge. God was charged. There some reason bothers me that blacks don't hold the priesthood. But there's some reason that God knows that I don't know. And I kept giving it over, just giving it over, giving it over. Well, now all of a sudden,

John Dehlin [00:24:44] I

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:24:44] can't give this one over because I don't. We didn't feel like it was right. And that's the other thing, is it's been a privilege to be with Terry because, you know, dads with sons and things like that. And Terry has never once hesitated or been. He's been totally supportive of Josh and me. And it just blows me away that we were at one with this, you know, from the beginning. Now when you do everyday stuff, normal stuff, yeah, we can fight like cats and dogs and we can have problems with all kinds of things. But the big things in life, I've been privileged to have someone that has shared where we've shared that Same view. And I. I have such empathy for people that have opposites or have to deal with that. That would be kind of traumatic, I think, to go through.

Early Seeds of Doubt After Josh Came Out

John Dehlin [00:25:44] So by the early 2000s, because of Josh coming out as gay, you started asking yourself if maybe the brethren or the church didn't have it all right. How did things progress in terms of how things starting to unravel? Were there next sort of important moments where other things started?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:26:05] I started being taught. The universe started to teach me. I remember thinking that Josh was broken and that in the next life he would be repaired and every hair on your head will be restored. And then I'm sitting there talking to someone, and they were saying about some. They were just talking, just in a conversation, in a group, and they were saying how someone had said that to him and. And how terrible that was, that they considered him a flaw and that they can. And all this stuff. And then he talked about it and everything. And I remember sitting there, being taught, and I went, I'm never saying that again.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:26:40] I'm never saying that again. He is whole. He is how he was supposed to be. I don't know how it all works, but that's just who he is. And so I threw that one out the window really fast just from that person being brave enough to talk about that experience.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:26:57] There were little things like that that kept going. And then Prop 8 came. Well, the proclamation came out and, what, 95, something like that? I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:27:11] That was, like, proclamation on the family.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:27:14] Yeah, that was.

John Dehlin [00:27:15] You didn't like it? You didn't celebrate that?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:27:18] No, because there's all kinds of families. There's grandparents raising kids and single moms and single dads. And. Why do you want to start creating? I know the church will always have to preach the ideal, but that doesn't mean that they can't show compassion. And, I don't know, I just felt like it was. It denigrated or dismissed all kinds of families that were functioning fully as families, and. And they needed support. They didn't need to be marginalized or be made different, because a lot of times they were made different through no fault of their own or just circumstances. So, you know, there were things like that that always kind of bothered me. What was really interesting at the time is I told Terry, I said, you know what? If I didn't know better, I'd say this was a legal brief. And we just laughed about that. And then we talked about that years later.

John Dehlin [00:28:14] It was.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:28:16] It was. I feel like it was. I mean, you know, there were case law was always already being created in Hawaii.

John Dehlin [00:28:22] Did you hear my interview with Nadine Hanson?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:28:24] No, I haven't heard.

John Dehlin [00:28:25] She talked about that.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:28:26] Oh, yeah, it's already being developed.

John Dehlin [00:28:27] And long before projects some document to be able to show they had a vested interest in being sort of, you know, amicus, friend of the court, sort of filing briefs. And so it was drafted initially by lawyers so that the church could then have legal standing to fight same sex marriage. That was the impetus of the freaking document.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:28:51] And then it wasn't even shown to any of the female presidencies. No one had a say in this. And they're talking about the family. There was no female voice in any of it. And so it's like, okay, you know, but see, I didn't know that back then. I just knew it bothered me for this. But then I'm going. When I was reading at that time, I just thought, you know, this is the size of all this, you know, but so then that. So there, that is. So there's little things that are bothering me.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:29:24] And then I remember one time finding out that, oh, this is a good one. I saw this book called Mormon Enigma. Emma Smith, Mormon. A Mormon enigma, Right. And I thought, we never talk about Emma. This church never talks about Emma. And I didn't believe what Brigham Young said, that Joseph said he would go to hell for Emma and he. And Brigham said he might have to. And you know, people would make these little jokes about Emma. And I thought, that's not fair. There's something here that's. I wanted to know more about Emma. So when I saw that book, and trust me, I'm that person that you never said Gerald or Sandra Tanner's name, let alone read anything they wrote.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:30:12] I mean, they were like Hitler for our country. You just didn't, you didn't talk about that. By the way, I have apologized to Sandra for those feelings that I had not knowing her. But anyway, so there's all this anti Mormon literature out there, but you wouldn't be caught dead.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:30:32] Not caught dead. I don't even know how to explain that mindset. It's a high demand religion, right? And that was one of the things that it demanded, that you just stayed away from anything that was a different way of thinking or looking at the church.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:30:47] So I see this Mormon Enigma because it was a deseret book in the beginning and I got it. And when I started reading it, I remember one day, this isn't a book about Emma. This is the book about Joseph Smith and I. That was the first time I knew about all of those things about Joseph Smith, and that was like. And then I kept going. Part of my brain is going, no, no, no, this is anti Mormon literature. I need to throw this away.

John Dehlin [00:31:16] Do you have a sense for what year this is?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:31:18] I think it was in the 90s.

John Dehlin [00:31:19] So still in the 90s before Josh comes out.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:31:21] Yeah. And we're, like, going to Bolivia, I think. Was it. Yeah, it was 95, 94, 93, something like that. But the thing is, there's something inside of me that took my breath away when I read it, because I knew there was things that were true in this book.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:31:45] And I had never experienced that inconsistency before. I was always just, you know, even in and believed and never had a doubt or a worry. And it was like I didn't know what to do with that feeling. So I handed the book to Terry and I said, here. And he looked through this and he, oh, this is anti Mormon. You can throw this away.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:32:10] Which I tease him about that all the time. And so we went to throw it away, but I think I did throw it away, and Jared found it in the garbage and read it. Jared had read Jared. Jared, from the minute Jared started reading when he was about 10 years old, reading lots of books.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:32:30] He's read books for as long as I've known him on everything and he knows everything. And that was probably one of his first books. And anyway,

John Dehlin [00:32:41] he.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:32:43] Yeah, but I remember that stuck with me. And I've had the author standing right here in front of my fireplace talking to people about. Now that you asked me, I can't remember her name. Not Tippetts. The other. She's wonderful. Now you can't remember me.

John Dehlin [00:33:05] And.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:33:06] Yeah, she was great. I'll get to it. It'll come. This is what happens when you get older. It doesn't go away. You just have to wait five or six minutes or five or six seconds, and then it rolls down into the slot and then, oh, there it is. So anyway, so I'd had that one that stuck to me.

John Dehlin [00:33:24] Linda King Newell.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:33:25] Yes, Linda Newell. She was wonderful. And she told us the story about that and her and Valeen Tippets and on what happened to them during that experience. And it was an incredible night having her here. But that book, it just did something.

John Dehlin [00:33:43] And then you had her here in the 90s.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:33:46] No, had her here like a year ago recently. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:49] Okay. Yeah.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:33:50] So anyway, so there's these little things. So the gay issue had set me. Were setting me up. I was learning new things and feeling new experiences in my head, and things weren't adding up as easily as they always added up. And then this Prep 8, you said. Mm. And then this book, and then, gosh, I'm trying to think,

John Dehlin [00:34:16] like, what. How'd you go from Prop 8 to, like, listening to Mormon stories? Is there. Is there anything that kind of took you on that path?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:34:24] Well, we never found you till after we were already done or going through

John Dehlin [00:34:29] things, except I remember seeing you guys at meetings you were still in.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:34:33] You saw us at affirmations. Yeah, that was the first time we met you.

John Dehlin [00:34:36] I remember waiting years, like, what are they gonna. When are they gonna kind of move, you know?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:34:41] Well, this is the thing. We weren't done when we started doing Mormon stories, but we were pretty much there, and Mormon stories was like the frosting on the cake. And then it was like, we. We couldn't 24 7. We're, like, reading everything. Because, see, this is the thing. Terry and I are both first children, and we were obedient children. And so when we started thinking about things, we just started. Well, we had all these questions.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:35:11] We thought we were just asking questions that we needed answers for because we had these things that we were dealing with that nobody had ever discussed, you know, or said, well, how does this work with a gay child? How does this work with these things? I'm reading about, you know, stuff, but we were fully, fully confident there would be answers that we weren't. We didn't want to get out.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:35:40] We wanted to stay in. We just wanted our questions answered. We want to. How do we deal with this? Because we're not feeling it the same way. Right? We're doing all that stuff. So it's like, how does this all work? And I. Gosh, let me think.

John Dehlin [00:35:59] Do you remember what happened between Prop 8 and when you guys decided that you were done or you didn't believe you were?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:36:07] Okay, Prop 8 happens. That really bothers us at this point. People in the ward know which we have a gay son, and they know. And there's a few people that. Some things are said across the pulpit that weren't very kind. People were talking about being asked to go down to California to protest or send money, those kinds of things. Those all made us feel very uncomfortable. And to be honest with you, I think Prop 8 is what kind of blew a hole in my family with my kids, too. It just started with my kids at that point, too, because I think everybody was still thinking, maybe there's a way we can have both. Right? Or do whatever. But Then we could kind of see it was falling apart, all that being able to see.

John Dehlin [00:36:50] So when your kids start questioning and doubting.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:36:53] But see, they were still very subtle about it, and they were still doing it. We were all on our own journey, really, actually. And I know someone in the ward here had said that, well, she knew why the whole family went out, because I drug everybody out, because I'm more noisy on Facebook, for example, or something. But nobody. No, that wasn't the story, and that's not how it went.

John Dehlin [00:37:17] Everyone has their own journey.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:37:18] Everyone has their own journey.

John Dehlin [00:37:19] Nobody takes anybody out. People take themselves out.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:37:23] And most of the time, I want to say, well, why don't you just ask? I'd be very happy to tell you the story, you know.

John Dehlin [00:37:28] Oh, they don't want to know that.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:37:29] They don't want to know the story.

Children Leaving and Prop 8's Impact

John Dehlin [00:37:31] So as your kids start bailing intellectually over Prop 8, but you guys stay in until what year?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:37:38] Well, my kids don't start bailing at this point. Where are we at? Okay, when we're starting to kind of go through our thing. Jared had struggled his whole life, basically, but he did serve a mission. He's done all the things that he did, all the things that he was raised to do.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:38:01] But we knew he struggled. We always knew that he struggled. Always. And I think because Jared is the oldest of our family, he has a very special relationship with the rest of my children. He was always that guy that, you know, when they were going to college, he would always say, hey, make sure your butt's in the seat. You don't miss college, you don't miss this. And he's always, you know, wanted them to excel, and he's been very protective of all of them. But Jenny was very active in the church.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:38:34] Josh at this point was no longer attending church. John was extremely active in church, and so was jc. All of them were. John had a fabulous mission, loved his mission and everything. And then John comes home from his mission. And then I'm trying to think how we started.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:38:54] I think probably the first one to really have some questions was Jenny, but she didn't tell anybody. And I feel kind of uncomfortable talking about my kids stories because I think it's their stories to tell. So I'll do a very brief thing. And then one day, JC decides that she's done and JC's done fast. Done. And that was.

John Dehlin [00:39:20] So you have Josh and jc. That's two of five.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:39:24] Yeah. That was very traumatic. Even though Terry and I were going through our stuff, figuring it out, that was really traumatic because we were saying one crisis at a time, let us finish ours and then you can do your crisis to stay where you are. You know, that was really interesting to have JC do that and to find out how she felt. And it was, it was agonizing for her. It was agonizing for her. It was agonizing for all of my children. Nobody. It was not something that they were glad or happy about or anything. It was, it was very hard. It was very.

John Dehlin [00:39:59] Did she come out to you, JC As a non believer? What'd she say? Well, you don't have to share if you want to share.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:40:10] And then her and Travis had to figure that out and how that was

John Dehlin [00:40:14] going to work because she was married.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:40:17] And I have to say this, that J.C. could have no finer people as in laws than her, in laws who. Are very active in the church, want their children to be active in the church, love their children. And yet when this happened with J.C. they were nothing but kind and loving to J.C. nothing. They were, they were exemplary. It can be done. It can be done. And I know in their heart of hearts they want something different and would hope for something different. I know that and I honor that. I know, I know what that feels like. And Steph, so she, you know, they've worked all that out and they're doing wonderful.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:41:03] But see, but then when Jared, when J.C. did. I think that gave Jared permission to. And I may be wrong, but I think it gave him permission to be more open about things and stuff that way that he wasn't. He didn't have to. And so.

John Dehlin [00:41:16] And it's your oldest.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:41:17] That's my oldest.

John Dehlin [00:41:18] Now you're up to three out of five. Yeah.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:41:20] And then there's. And then when John told us that he had been having struggles, that was like a heartbreaker because John was probably the most tender about the church and everything that way and just loved the church. And he grew up having the best experience in the church. I think out of all of my kids, he was here in this house and in this ward and they were. He had a really wonderful childhood in Draper. In Draper, here with them. And so did J.C. when she was younger. And so when we found out about John, all of a sudden, then they knew about Terry and I and we started talking.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:42:00] And there's one thing, one of your questions that you had done was what would you do different about transitioning or whatever, or talking about that. I have a son in law who's married to Jenny who is still a believing, practicing Mormon.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:42:22] And when I look Back when. Because we all kind of went through it together. And then when we all started talking together. We've always been a family that talked. Always, always. Dinner tables, our two hour conversations. We've always been like that. Always. I think my children are each other's best friends, so it would be natural for them to talk about these things and do all of these things. But I think that at times it had to be very difficult for Andy because the whole family reneged on the deal.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:43:02] And I. Except Jenny, I mean, except Jenny goes to church with Andy and supports Andy and they support each other and they have worked that out. And I admire him so much, but

John Dehlin [00:43:13] all the in laws were failing.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:43:14] But when we were together, we would say things that. I know that we probably wounded him by things that were said as we were angry, as we were mad, as we were saying why this, why that, and going through all those things and talking about those things. And I wish we would have been a little bit more sensitive in that way. But he still loves us and he's an exemplary father. I love Andy with all of my heart and, you know, it's hard and sometimes I just feel like he's just in a tough position.

John Dehlin [00:43:53] Sure.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:43:54] Yeah. But he still loves us and we still love him and try to honor them. We ask permission for things that, you know, maybe that we do now that we wouldn't have done before and things like that. But I think it's been pretty difficult. But the two of them are working things out and talking and they're doing fine. They're doing great.

John Dehlin [00:44:19] Can you. So it sounds like there was sort of a bit of a death by a thousand cuts to your testimony over maybe a decade or two.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:44:26] Well, no, it kind of. I'd say acutely. Maybe eight years.

John Dehlin [00:44:30] Okay.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:44:31] No, eight years and then acute. Five years. It was an acute reaction. 13 total.

John Dehlin [00:44:37] Are you saying 13 total?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:44:38] No, eight years were where three of it was like, oh, we're in trouble. You know, like after Prop 8. Okay, uh, oh, we can't do this anymore. Blacks bothered us. And now this was the case. This is getting really. And could they be wrong? You know, it's just. And then we were. It bothered me about the mall. It bothered me when I heard that Elder Uchtdorf blessed the Marriott next to the Polynesian Center. You know, there were just things that I started to see that I never saw before.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:45:09] I just never saw before. Read section 132. I never saw that before. There were so many things that as things kind of opened up, we're going, ah, you know, this is interesting, but there's a way, there's still a way. We're going to find out. We're going to do it, it's going to happen, and we're going to find out that there's a reason for it and all this stuff. But see, once you take that thinking away, that there's a reason for it and that God isn't charge, you're left with yourself.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:45:42] And that's an incredible, scary feeling in the beginning, but it becomes an incredibly empowering experience later on as you start reading and learning. Oh, that's what I was going to tell you before. We were going to do this, right?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:45:58] Mormons do everything right, right? We were going to do it right? And so we only read from source material, we only read diaries, we read from original editions. We read all these things because it was too precious to us. We were mucking around in dangerous territory and we didn't know what the outcome was going to be because as we kept going, we knew one thing. We had to keep going. We had to keep going and we couldn't stop. And then once we started, we found Mormon stories. We found you. That affirmation was the last affirmation that I ever attended because when I sat in a testimony meeting, it ripped my heart out with all these beautiful young people feeling like failures or trying to. A bunch of square pegs trying to fit in this round hole. I couldn't do that anymore. And. And so I would.

John Dehlin [00:46:53] That was the year of the young Stephen.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:46:54] Yeah. And I wanted to. I wanted to go in front of the door and say, stop, don't go. Don't come in here. I wanted to say, this church isn't ready for you. You will never be whole in this church. You will never be considered par with everyone else or equal. Go, go live your life. Go be happy. You know, just be. And that was the last time. And I think that's when I first met you.

John Dehlin [00:47:16] That was around 2013, right?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:47:18] Is that what.

John Dehlin [00:47:19] Don't you think?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:47:19] Yeah.

The Gospel Essays and Deciding to Leave

John Dehlin [00:47:20] So were there things that, like, the essays came out, really slammed the door.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:47:27] Oh, the essays came out. And then when you're thinking all this, all my life, I said, okay, that blacks in the priesthood, God did that. That was a revelation from God for reasons God only understood. And his prophets just passed the word out. Right. And then all of a sudden you read the essay and you find out that it was not even a revelation, it was a policy. It was devastating. It was like I thought those things and did those things for something that wasn't even what I thought it was. That was the first one. That was the biggie that was. And it's right there. And then that's when I started noticing, you know, the things that they put out are not accurate all the time. And the way they, you know, she was almost 15. She was, you know, the little birthday

John Dehlin [00:48:32] two months shy of her 15th birthday. And, you know, it was common being disingenuous.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:48:36] It was common in that day. No, it wasn't. And it was just all these little things. And then I knew firsthand how bad Mormon PR could be because of the Ordain Women movement and what PR said happened and what I know happened because of the women of huge integrity that I know that were there and know what happened didn't happen, you know, but they painted them. Tried to paint them out to be something that they were not.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:49:09] That bothered me, too, because it was like pitting sister against sister. And I couldn't understand why my sisters in the church would have a problem with that, because you don't have to go and do that, but can't you allow them to do that? You know, there's always. There's this thing that kind of happens to get you to.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:49:32] How do I explain? To conform? And it's usually they use something against you. Like, I know the second action. They actually had a woman there to turn them away. Just things like that. There were just things that I just started picking up on where things weren't accurate because I wasn't looking at things with the glasses, that everything's perfect and they can do no wrong. I was raised to believe that the church would never go astray. In fact, I remember hearing general authorities say that can never happen. It's impossible. That will never happen. The church will never be led astray.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:50:12] And you're thinking all that, but once you start seeing these things that just don't make sense. And I'm thinking, would a superior being make all. It's like making everything was like a pretzel. When you talk about apologists and things like that, you know, every time we'd go there, it'd be like, oh, my gosh, you have to go here to get this and to get that, and then you figure this out, and then this is what happens, and this is the result. And I just wanted a. I'm Marilyn, Dede's daughter. I just want a straight black and white answer. And my parents always told me the truth.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:50:47] And the church that raised me always said to tell the truth and to speak the truth and to speak it clearly. And if I didn't say the truth and I was to apologize, do you remember the R's you recognize, restore, and then restitution, repent, and then restitution. I'm thinking, I'm not seeing any of this going on here. And I am a product of that.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:51:13] And I wasn't seeing it go. And then when Elder Oaks said, we do not apologize. We don't. We don't. Of course we do. Of course we do. It's, you know, that's. Things like that that, you know, I don't know. But it makes me sad. It makes me sad because do you

John Dehlin [00:51:42] remember the moment where you're like, it's not. Not. It's not true, or I'm done. Either of those moments can be really big moments for people.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:51:52] Well, you know what's interesting about that? We were having a conversation the other night with some people and everyone that I know that is a post Mormon has a moment like that and they can remember. I remember when Simon Symington went to bed at night a believer, and woke up in the morning a non believer. He did it in his dreams. I know someone that sat down at a computer to look up masonry. Four hours later, she wasn't even. That wasn't even a thing. But four hours later, because it went into Joseph Smith, she was done. And there's this feeling that you go, oh, my gosh.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:52:37] Oh, my gosh. You know, and for me, Terry was first. This is how I knew Terry was done. And it's when he came to me and sat down next to me and held my hand and said, there is not one thing I learned in primary that I learned when I was a young man in my priesthood quorums, that I taught people in the mission field, that I taught and counseled people as a bishop.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:53:18] Not one thing that is accurate or has not been distorted or is a fabrication. And he was bereft. And I knew because I kept saying, we need to hang on, we need to hang on, we need to hang on.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:53:37] This thing will work out. You'll see. And when I looked into his eyes and saw the sorrow and the depths of that sorrow and how he felt so betrayed, so betrayed. And I knew he was done. I knew. So I felt that first. And then he said to me, do

John Dehlin [00:53:59] you remember the year of that about

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:54:01] that would have been 2013, 14, something like that. And he said, he took my hand about 2013. And he took my hand and he said, I will go to church with you. I will Sit with you. I will hold your hand and tell, it doesn't matter. I will support you. And I remember thinking you better because this is the most important decision I'm ever going to make, and I'm making it all by myself.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:54:29] Because I was taken to church. I went to church because my grandmother loved me and I loved her. And I knew she would never have do anything, put me anywhere I'd be in any harm's way. I'd followed the commandments. Men had told me what to do, how to think, how to dress, how to walk. This was going to be my decision. It was going to be mine.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:54:49] Because I also knew that it would be something that I would have to. Because in the beginning, you worry about, am I doing the right thing? Am I harming my family? Am I being led by Satan? Am I being. Miss. You have all these feelings in the beginning, but then when you keep going as things fall from your mind and your mind becomes yours again, and you can make good judgments and you keep making good judgments and you keep making good judgments, and then you have that time where you just know you're there, and then you get that feeling of, oh, no, am I ready for my losses?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:55:31] Am I ready for the loss of your friends, your family? You don't know who's going to stay and who's going to go. Your reputation, your. You know, you fall from grace in many people's eyes and you just. You have all these things, but there comes a point in your life where you just have to own your stuff. And although I wish. You know what I hear every post Mormon say, never in a million years.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:56:08] How many times have you heard that, John? Never in a million years. And never in a million years did I think I would find myself in that position.

John Dehlin [00:56:19] So you're saying you did have a moment or you didn't have a moment?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:56:22] I don't know that I did have a moment because after I saw Terry and after that, and then we went a couple of more times, and then finally I just said, because we went two. Trying to think 2013, we didn't believe. So it would have been at the beginning, but we still attended because we thought we could be good. Maybe we could help with the gay thing, Maybe we can help with feminism.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:56:48] We can help. But then all of a sudden, we realized, wait a minute, you know, we couldn't do it anymore. I couldn't listen to what was being taught in gospel doctrine. I couldn't listen to what was being taught across the pulpit.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:57:04] I wanted to stand up many Times and say, if you're going to be here and sacrifice your Life and pay 10% of your tithing gross. Know your religion. Do you really know your theology? Do you even understand it? Because I didn't. I thought I knew. And I consider myself pretty smart. And I knew lots of things and I studied the scriptures. But until I really got in and just really saw the big picture and then saw how everything laid out it was, you know. And so I, you know, and I admire people, but I don't think I'm any.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:57:41] How do I. This is the hard part for me. I don't think I'm any smarter than anybody else. Just because I have. I have someone that loves the church and stays in the church. I don't look at it that way. I don't look at it like, well, yeah, open your eyes and you can. Then you'll really understand the truth. I don't feel that way. I feel like every person has to listen to the sound of their own drummer. And my drummer led me here. But I respect you where you're at. I would never take that away from you.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:58:10] Do you know what I mean? And so this othering of people is so terrible. It's so terrible. Why do we have to do that? But I know why. It's because we're conditioned like I was, that people like me are dangerous, people like me are bad. People like me are being influenced by Satan. So don't be around people like me. But you know where their cognitive dissonance comes in. Because they know me. They've been around me my whole life. They know I'm a good person, but yet they have this story in their head that they have to do. But they're looking at me and trying to decide, how does this work?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:58:46] You know? Yeah, I don't know. And that's why. I don't know. I don't know. But I'm just trying to think. So there we are. I knew we couldn't do it anymore. He knew we couldn't do it anymore.

John Dehlin [00:58:58] Church was driving me crazy.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:58:59] Church was driving me crazy. Then there was one more hurdle. I talked to my daughter and I said, which one? Jenny, my oldest. And I said to Jennifer, in tears, I said, I don't know how long I can hang on, but. Because I had been the Mormon grandmother to my children, my grandchildren. And I said, but, Jenny, I want you to know that I will fake it if this causes any harm to my grandchildren and your family.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:59:35] I will fake it. I will do. I'll just buck up. And I'll just go through the motions and I will be that person. And she said, let me think about that. And a couple of days later she came back to me and she said, mom, I thought about it and I decided that I want you to be who you are. I want you to be the person that you are. And she said, you're going to be the one to teach my children how to handle life. When it doesn't go the way you thought it was, you will be that person for them.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:00:11] And it's like the weight of the world. That was probably more my moment because it was like, I'm free to be me. I am free. I can do this thing, right? I can do this thing. I've had friends that have daughters and sons that say to their mothers, please lie, lie, do whatever you can, just fake this. Please don't do this to us. And I think how grateful I am for a wise daughter who chose to look at it that way. And because of that, I have really good relationships with my grandchildren.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:00:55] Nothing changed. I Talked to my 17 year old granddaughter and you know, and I told her just a titch, like now, you know, grandma's not going to church anymore and blah, blah, blah, and she goes, okay, what else? You know? And I said, so you still love me? Yep. Okay, let's get on with life. I mean, you know, it's just like that. It's just been really good. And I don't know if it's.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:01:19] I don't know if our family's just not judgmental. And that's why we've all been able to be more flexible or more caring or more something. I don't know. I don't know. But I'm grateful for whatever it is that's woven in here, you know, that is empathetic. I know that my children were changed in Bolivia. You can't see human suffering and poverty and the things that they saw and not be touched by that, you know. And so anyway, so there we are.

John Dehlin [01:01:49] But they're their mother's children and their fathers. They're their parents children and they're their grandparents, children.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:01:56] Yes, they are.

John Dehlin [01:01:57] And now you're able to be maybe in some ways to your children and grandchildren what your mother was to you and your children.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:02:06] Except for I have great sorrow about that, John, because I don't know if we ever really get to know our parents as people, you know, in real life. But I always had a. It was not unconditional. I always wanted my parents to be Mormon. And even Jennifer said That one time that one of her sorrows was that her. When she realized that she had that same thing about her grandparents that she adored. But why couldn't they be Mormon? Right? And so we. I don't know, we're just taught to make those labels or to make those boxes and put people in boxes or things like that, you know? And I feel. I feel bad because I feel like that kept me from really knowing my mother. Deeply understanding.

John Dehlin [01:03:15] Have you ever wondered why they weren't Mormon? Like, maybe they had good reasons?

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:03:19] Well, my dad had. My dad always told us kids that the reason he wasn't active in the church is because he said, no man has the right to judge another man.

John Dehlin [01:03:27] That's so profound, isn't it?

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:03:30] He said his whole life, he said, that's God's still, and no man has that right. And that always bothered him, that the interviewing, the, you know, all these questions and all this stuff. And that always bothered him. And my mother.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:03:46] My mother was a free spirit. She was raised back east and she was smart. She skipped her junior year, and that's why she was 17 when she met my dad. She'd already finished high school. She was an artist. She was incredible person in that regard, but she was. But I wish I could sit down with her now and talk to her about things and my dad, although it would just be about this part of my life, because the other part, the part that I had with them is I have no regrets. When my parents died, we had said everything we needed to say. There was no need to repair anything. We were lucky in that regard. We had all good feelings and we're able to. That was not.

John Dehlin [01:04:31] But now you get to model real intimacy and unconditional love to your children and grandchildren, Right?

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:04:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:04:38] Right.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:04:39] Yep. Yep.

John Dehlin [01:04:41] So that's like a step forward for the next generation.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:04:45] Yeah. And, you know, and the thing too is, like I told my granddaughters, I said, if you have a new beginning tonight or you have something where you get an award, I will be there. If you're doing something, anything in your life, I will be there.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:05:03] I don't think. Well, I'm not going in that church again or I'm not. I got over my angry phrase a long, long time ago when I was mad at a few things and stuff that way. But I've never been offended. You know, we've had one bishopric meeting with.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:05:23] We quit going first of 2014. We decided we would take a step back because we tried everything else and it wasn't working. Nothing was keeping us and so we thought, we'll just not go and see. And I remember thinking, I'm going to miss it, or the spirit's going to call me back, or I'm going to this and this, you know, and it never did. It never did.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:05:49] And we just kept going and we just kept going and we just kept researching and kept everything that way. But it was like. We thought that that somehow would change something, and it didn't. We weren't prepared for the gift of Sunday.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:06:13] Oh, my gosh, that was like, Sundays are amazing days. A lot of days are amazing days and all that stuff. But there was something I was going to tell you about Jenny, and now I can't remember what that was.

Leaving the Ward and Social Fallout

John Dehlin [01:06:34] So I think you were talking about your ward and maybe how they didn't. Did they come after you?

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:06:40] Oh, this is what happened. That's what I was talking about. We. So we hadn't been for, like six months. I think it was six months. And I answered the door one night and it was the whole bishopric. And I said, come in. Terry wasn't here. And so I had them come and sit down. And they're all exceptional men, and they're still serving as the bishopric here. And they sat down in the front room. And at that point, I have to tell you something.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:07:10] I had heard you say something long time before about there was something to keeping your journey private so that you could go through everything without outside interference or people trying to nail your foot to the floor or say, what is it you believe and don't believe when you're trying to figure all that out? Anyway, it was very wise for me. It was extremely wise for Terry. It was extremely wise because we were able to go through all the gyrations, up, down, in and outs of it, you know, everything.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:07:46] We could do that with ourselves. And consequently, what happens is the healing as you get going and you become stronger and you have more conviction about where you're at. And so when these brethren came that night, I was ready. I was ready talk. I didn't feel ambushed because I was ready. I wasn't afraid. And when I sat down and talked with them, they were very kind, very good to me. And the bishop did ask, why. Can we ask why you're not coming to church? And I said, well, before I tell you why, I want to tell you why not what it isn't, what it is, I want to tell you what it is.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:08:33] And he said, okay. And I just said, it's not because I was offended. I said, I've never been offended. Hey, if you're going to get offended, you don't belong in any church. People are going to offend you right and left. I said, I've never been offended. I forgive easily. I forget even faster. I said, so nobody has done anything, said anything, hurt our feelings, none of that. It doesn't exist.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:08:58] And I said, I love the people in my ward. I love them. I genuinely love them. And I said, so that's not it. I said, it's not because of my gay allyship. Because you know what I said, if I.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:09:17] I feel like I would be an asset in the ward with educating people how to love, you know, we don't have to go into the politics of it all, but I could teach them how families could work together and how important it is that families work together and do all of these things, right? But I said, you and I both know that if I came out as a gay ally, I will never serve in any position where there's children. I'll never serve in primary. I'll never serve in Mary. And they all went, yeah, you're right. But they didn't do it like, you know. No, they were saying, yeah, that's probably true.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:09:50] Kindly, they knew. And it was like. And then I said, and then. And it's not because of my feminism, because I think I'd be really great in the ward with the young women. I think I could empower the young women, and I think I could have meaningful experiences with the young women. I love young women. That would be where I'd want to be or be with the women in Relief Society, right? So it's like. And I said, but, you know, if I come out as a feminist, I will never teach Relief Society. I will never do, you know, all these things. And it was like.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:10:21] And I said, so, you know, And I said, and if I. So they're going. So I go through all these reasons, which they kind of think are the reasons, because that's what I include.

John Dehlin [01:10:31] A desire to sin.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:10:31] No, they didn't ask about that. And I said, I don't have any problems with anything. You know, I pay my tithing. I didn't go into those details, but I just said all of these basic ones. And then I said that. And then they're, like, waiting for the reason, because I think people assume that because of my advocacy on Facebook or whatever, when I talk to people or whatever. And I just said, I no longer believe. I said, I've done enough research and study and all this, and it's not what I thought. It Was. And it's not portrayed as I thought it was. It is not. You know, and then. I don't know that they knew what to do with me then. And then. And then Terry came home and then I said. I said, like, I had a hard time with the essays, you know, and the bishop said, what essays?

John Dehlin [01:11:30] What essays? Yeah.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:11:32] And I go, you haven't read the essays. And back then when I talked to them, you had to go looking for them. And they were very difficult to find, remember, until somebody put them all together, all the links together. Right. And then I think somebody thought that that was really going to a bogus website, that it really wasn't the church it was going to. They couldn't believe the church was saying that stuff.

John Dehlin [01:11:54] Yeah. Anti Mormon essays.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:11:55] So it was like. So anyway, so I said, well, I will send you the essays. And then I went upstairs and, you know, Bob Reese did that book with Caitlin Ryan, Family Acceptance Product. Family Acceptance Product. I had about 10 brochures upstairs. So I said, I got something for you. And I ran upstairs and I got those. And I said, here, these will be really handy for you. I said, if you ever want to ask me anything, I'm here, I'm here. And you can take this. And you know what's interesting is he took those. And then I did send him an email with all the links, and then there were a couple more, but I never heard back from any of the bishopric about that.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:12:35] One of the counselors, I think is. I'm not really. How do I put this? I don't really know my bishop very well, but one of the counselors I know very well, and he's just an outstanding person and he's been very good to Terry and I and stuff that way. In fact, I had an experience with Jeff.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:13:03] We had a kid just down the street that came out to me one night. He just sent me a message and told me. And I spent some time just talking to him to make sure he was okay. And he comes from a very, very good family, but I knew that they would have difficult time. And I talked to him. I wanted to make sure he was okay, that he wasn't depressed, you know, or anything like that and stuff. So I wrote him and then I. Yeah, so.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:13:33] And I told Brother Payo about that experience because I wanted him to know that I would never say anything to them that would be contrary to what they feel, you know, as Latter Day Saints and stuff. Stuff. So he's been great. And then I went to his daughter's homecoming a Week ago. First time back to church in three years, almost four years, right? And you know what? I loved it. You know why? Because I'm done. I'm so done. And I had no anger. I had love in my heart for everyone there. And I got to hug people even though they had othered me and hadn't seen some of them for three years.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:14:11] Nobody, I mean, I was cut off. And I came out with about five maybe really good friends that still kind of hung around. Wanted to be friends.

John Dehlin [01:14:21] From your ward?

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:14:21] From my ward. But everyone came up and hugged me and said they missed me and everything. And it was genuine and it was wonderful. And I just knew I'd made the right decision and I was happy to be there. Do you know what I mean? I was in a good mental state. It was my litmus test. If I would have felt angry or would have felt like, ugh. Then I thought, oh, you still have more work to do, right? I didn't. I just felt very confident in my decision, very happy about that. But I also was allowed, not allowed. But I also realized that they were an important part of my life and I loved them and you know what I mean? And. And even those that didn't communicate with me, I was forgiven. It all just went washed away. Just all washed away.

John Dehlin [01:15:12] So did they ever get back with you on the essays when you sent them the essays?

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:15:15] No, and I never got an email back. And it was just, we've never had

John Dehlin [01:15:18] to visit and you were just never had a visit. You're cut off. What is that like to serve decades in the church? And then when someone who should have all sorts of credibility, all sorts of capital built up as soon as you sort of say, this doesn't make sense, this isn't working, to just get stone silence and complete disconnection. You say now you've worked through it. Was there ever a point where that made you sad or frustrated you, that you hadn't built up enough credibility or capital to where, like, at least you deserve some. Some engagement, Right?

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:16:01] Well, yeah. I cooked so many meals for people and helped funerals and taught lessons and rubbed shoulders for years and years and years. And it's funny how that gets forgotten. Well, you know, you know what? I kind of knew a little bit because you know why?

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:16:18] We had been teaching young single adults, and I had one of my young single adults who was 18, resigned from the church. From one minute to the next, it felt like to me. And I remember thinking, oh my gosh, what 18 year old does that? You know, she's just a kid. Why would she make that gigantic of a situation? And blah, blah, blah, that she had made a decision based on things that she had read. And her whole family, one by one, went. And I remember sitting here thinking, this family is kind of disappearing from the warden. Nobody's turning an alarm on. Nobody's saying, what are we going to do for this family?

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:17:00] Nobody's doing anything. And I remember that's how I first noticed what was going on, because it was like. Because I never in a million years would have said Mormons would do that. Never, never. And I thought, this is so weird. And so I remember going in and telling. Talking to my bishop at the time and said, what are we going to do about her? And he said, well, her parents shouldn't have let her read the stuff she was reading.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:17:27] And I remember thinking, yeah, your kids are kind of young. Wait till you get teenagers. You don't tell them what to read and not read. You don't have that kind of control. You may think you do, but you don't. But it was like. But I could tell that that wasn't going to go anywhere, that there was anger at, but what had happened. And I remember walking out and I remember, oh, this is an interesting thing.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:17:51] I knew Terri and I were going. I could feel it. And I could feel these things happening. And this is part of your bargaining part, you know, where you try to work it out. Right. And after this happened, then I started noticing things, and then Brett Nord had.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:18:11] Had left. And I didn't know Brett very well at all. I just thought he was this really cool guy, but I didn't. I didn't know him.

John Dehlin [01:18:19] This is someone in your ward?

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:18:20] Yeah. And I couldn't understand why nobody talked about Brett anymore either. It's like Brett disappeared, and I'm like, what is this going on? What is this thing that's happening? You know, there's no missionary work or no efforts, no anything. It's like total out. So I'm like, I see him down at a grocery store, and I just. Well, no, I sent him a message and I said, I know we don't know each other very well, but I just want you to know I miss you. And I don't care what your reasons are. Can we always be friends?

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:18:51] I didn't know what was going on. I didn't know what this was, this thing, and then this othering thing. So we talked one time at Halloween down at Harmon's, and we talked a lot, and I got more of an insight into him. And his world.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:19:09] So I kind of knew as we were going down that path, uh oh, this is what's going to happen to us. And you know, where if I hadn't had these other experiences, I wouldn't have known what was going to happen. Right. Or how it was going to go.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:19:24] So our home teacher was the high priest group leader at the time. And he was sitting there and I remember saying to him, you know, there's a group of people that you need to be made aware of that need our help and need our support.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:19:50] And he said, well, who would that be? And I said, well, they're active, tithe paying, temple going, valiant, committed people in the church and they're struggling and they're struggling with their testimony and they're struggling with some things. And he goes, no, they're not. He said, that's not what the problem is. The problem is they just want to do something. They want to go sin or they just want to do something with their life. How can anybody be. And I remember thinking, okay, one down. Then I went to the mission leader or mission leader who I adore, he's a wonderful man. And at the time I said, this isn't going to make a lot of sense to you because I was speaking about myself, but I couldn't say it was me.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:20:36] And I said, jack, there's this group of people you've got to watch out for. You know how you in mission you are reactivating members. Your not just react. What is that? You're converting members to the church and reactivating members to the church, right? And he goes, yes. I go, there's a third group. What is that? And I said the same thing. I said it's active members that are hearing things, knowing things that are struggling, that have nowhere to go. You've got to, you've got to find them.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:21:13] And I remember him thinking, I remember he didn't, he scoffed the first guy, but this guy didn't. But I don't think he knew what I was talking about because I couldn't say it's me. There's a lot of us, there's a ton of us and there's no help anywhere and we can't talk to anybody and nobody's going to tell us we're bad or we're sinning or we want to do all this stuff. That's not what it's about, you know, blah, blah, blah. And so I tried on some level to get some awareness, you know, at that, but then later on, you know, but it didn't Happen.

John Dehlin [01:21:49] They don't want it. They don't want it. They don't want to know. They don't want to think about it.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:21:52] No, no. But I think there's some wards, though, that I think bishops are learning and they're trying to figure things out and maybe being kinder about it, and they're having some success with at least people feeling like they can maybe at least talk to people or ask about things or do whatever they need to do.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:22:12] I don't know. Some people do better talking about it, getting it out there and talking with their bishop and going through that. And some people, like Terry and I are more private and needed to do it by herself.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:22:25] We didn't, like, talk to our kids. I mean, it was like, we're going to figure this out first before we do this thing, you know, so anyway, so. So there. So those were my last attempts at trying to do something in. In that regard, even though I. You know. And then. Then we just quit going. And we had a cabin up in.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:22:49] It just coincided with the time we bought the cabin up in. In Midway. And we. We couldn't wait to get in the car. We get in the car and we turn on a podcast, and we listen to the podcast all the way up to Midway.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:23:04] And then we would talk our brains out all night long, get up in the morning, talk our brains out all morning. We just. I found that in a lot of couples who were on the same page, that. That was almost a profound byproduct was new communication, new ways of speaking to each other, new ways of speaking more authentically and speaking their truth, things they couldn't say before because they were supposed to be a certain thing or role model, a certain way. And I've heard that from countless couples that how communication got better. I don't know. You've probably heard that, too.

John Dehlin [01:23:47] No, there's all sorts of things.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:23:49] Yeah. And I'm sure. But, you know, to counterbalance that, there's also the marriages that destroyed and the marriages where people couldn't talk and couldn't find common ground. And I mourn for those. I don't know. That they're. I don't know. I don't know what came first, the chicken or the egg. I think sometimes those things, if they're just being held together by a fear, you know, when that. When that's gone. I know maybe there. I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:24:21] Yeah.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:24:21] I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:24:22] But to close out this second segment, it sounds like by. By mid 2014, you guys were done.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:24:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:24:29] All Right. So the. So the next section by the 1st of 2014, right.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:24:36] End of 13. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:24:37] Right. Yeah. And so the next section is going to be what comes next. How does that sound?

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:24:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:24:45] Can we move on to that?

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:24:46] Sure.

John Dehlin [01:24:47] All right. Well, let's wrap up this episode. So these are two episodes are gonna edit this, right? Yeah, yeah. But I'll just close. This is parts. Thank you for joining us for parts one and two of Mormon Stories podcast with Kim Sanders. It's been Kim Sandberg Turner. Yeah, it's been wonderful.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:25:08] And Danish.

John Dehlin [01:25:09] Stay tuned for parts three and maybe four and five. We'll see to hear what comes next. Thanks, everybody. Take care. Talk to you soon.

Life and Identity After Leaving the Church

Part 3 of 4 · Ep. 703

John Dehlin [00:00:29] Okay, so we're back with Kim Sandberg Turner. This is John de Lynn. We're now part three of our interview with Kim. And we've talked about her wonderful Mormon life, meeting Terry, their time in Bolivia. We've talked about raising their kids in the church. And that was a beautiful sort of part one, how much the church meant to them, how much it was about love and acceptance. And then we talked about how it all unraveled, starting with Josh, her son coming out as gay, and then having other kids struggle at various points in the journey.

John Dehlin [00:01:06] And then her own deep dive, along with Terry's, into the truth claims of the church and the history and the essays. And I think there are a few other things you wanted to say kind of about that unraveling. So why don't we start there? And then what we're going to move to is what comes after and how she and Terry have built a life after the church. And is there, is there happiness and joy after leaving the church? Well, no, we. We don't know. Stay tuned.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:01:35] Super duper happy.

John Dehlin [00:01:36] Don't, don't. Don't steal the thunder. You have to wait and see if there's happiness and joy. So, Kim, tell us a few things that were important to you about, about deciding that it wasn't true. There were a few lice pins for you.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:01:52] There was a distinction. I kind of wanted to talk about that. When people say when you left the church or when did you think the church wasn't true or things like that? It was never about the church per se, because it was because I could easily. And at that time, I believed that the brethren were erring in things and I could see where they were leading the church and things that were being done in the church weren't right and all of those things. And that was one issue. And I could have a problem with the church, but that doesn't mean that would affect my testimony of Joseph Smith, because when you talk to me about the church, the church was Joseph Smith and that experience in the Grove that I had dedicated my whole life to reinforcing or working the building up of the church, that sprang from that experience.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:02:47] Right. So when people tell me all the time, well, you know, they've left for social reasons and problems and things like this, I worry inside because this is not an ordinary church. There is that expectation or that belief that this amazing thing happened in this place.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:03:08] And until they really figure that out and decide if that happened or didn't happen, they're always going to be wondering. And for Me, the church things didn't bother. I had to go right to the story, right to the nub and figure all of that out.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:03:27] That took me probably a good part of a year. It was hard for me to let go of Joseph Smith. It was hard because I didn't want it to be true. I didn't want to. The things that were being said, the things that I read, the things that I knew, the problems with the stories, the different versions of the first vision, which were. That was a big shock to me, the fact that was it Joseph Fielding Smith that ripped it out of the original handwriting out of the ledger, put it in the safe for what, 20 years or 30 years, I don't know how many years.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:04:02] And things like this that I felt were. Were deliberate attempts to create a story that didn't exist and keep a narrative alive. So that was really important for me. I had to walk away because I didn't want to always wonder in my life, was it true or could it be true? I couldn't do that. I knew because of how I had been. It been processed for all these years that that would be a continual haunting. Right.

John Dehlin [00:04:36] Right.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:04:37] So I had to do that. And when I did, I remembered the moment when that was done, when I knew. And then I had to mourn. I had to mourn the man that I thought. I thought that Joseph Smith was. And, you know, you want to know something interesting about that?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:04:53] I don't have a problem with Joseph Smith, and I don't have a problem with Brigham Young, because I feel like they were both men at their times. They were doing what they needed to do to survive, to feed their families. They came up with ideas. I don't think he had any idea that this would happen, that this church would spring up in the desert in isolation, and that he would become what he has become to millions of members. And I just think I don't have any animosity. I don't have any. I don't know. I just think they were just doing. Doing their thing. My animosity or my feelings of betrayal come from those prophets following that knew that knew what was going on and knew and still perpetuated and formed and created a story that wasn't based in truth.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:05:51] It was based on PR or based on what it needed to look like or feel like so it could continue to grow and survive and. And be what it is. And just in the way that people were treated, just like, you know, the handcart company and I can't remember what his name was, you Know, we've grown up with these stories where they're worshiped and idolized when in reality they shouldn't have gone. And there was one man that was a voice of reason that said, no, we shouldn't go. We're going to die out on the plains. And remember how he was chastised and made. You know, you're not faithful.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:06:29] You're not this. And this was just men's egos. And I even understand. I don't know. I don't have the exact source right here, but I understood Brigham Young was waiting for. What is that called? That you brew stuff with a seal? No, a.

John Dehlin [00:06:51] That you brew stuff with.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:06:52] That you brew alcohol with and all that.

John Dehlin [00:06:54] Oh, like a still.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:06:55] A still. That's the word. That's the word. You know what I mean? So when you start getting into. You hear the other stories, you know, you're just going, hmm, okay. Then I also had something that I had to do through the process, and that was a lot of people said to me, but, Kim, what about your spiritual experiences? What about your feelings? What about the way you felt?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:07:17] Well, when you go to understand how things work psychologically and you learn about elation and you learn about what the mind does and how we try to make things bigger than ourselves, are we. I'm not a psychological expert, but there's all kinds of ways that the mind will enhance what we feel and believe, and it sends endorphins in your body.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:07:41] There's all kinds of things that go on when you want to believe something. And then there'd be these moments where something would happen and it was just something that happened, but it was because it was a little out of the ordinary. You know, you could almost hear, the church must be true. The church must be true. Because of this, the church must be true. And I had to go through some of my experiences and really think about them and really realize how it all worked. And I was able to do that successfully. And then the second thing was that of Revelation. I've always believed that our church was messy because it was a green church and we had revelation, and we were always constantly in communication with God and things like that. And when I did the research on Revelation, there weren't any, to my mind.

John Dehlin [00:08:33] Weren't any what?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:08:34] There weren't any revelations. When, you know, when polygamy ended, it was because, you know, we.

John Dehlin [00:08:41] Declaration.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:08:42] Yeah, the declaration that wasn't political wasn't a revelation. Blacks in the priesthood was not a revelation. In fact, you know, David O. McKay said, hey, we really should do this right now, but the members aren't ready for it and let it go because it was societal. It was something, you know, well, then there's. And I want to say, well, what would have happened if we would have done it? It wouldn't. Wouldn't that have been a good thing? If he felt like it was a good thing and he had done it, what was he afraid that he'd lose members of the church?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:09:13] And so was it a money issue rather than a human being issue? And then it was like, I mean, at every turn, I just see dollar signs or like. Like a business would run and what. How successful a business would be. And I know this sounds like blasphemy, doesn't it, even to say things. I still have body memories, but it's like. But it's like I just started seeing different things that, you know, like, why did this? And then what was the other, you know, this. Oh, and then. And then the November policy with. About the gays and families and children, you know, and Kristofferson comes on in that video and tries to do a press conference to, you know, patch it up, you know, with this big shock over the weekend, which is interesting, because think it was like, Friday, people were buzzing about it, rumor.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:10:03] And I remember hearing members of the church say, no, the church would never do that. That's a terrible thing. It would never happen. And then was it Saturday when it came out? When you. When you put it, it was like, you know, all that time. And then by Monday, it was like, oh, there must be a reason God did this for a reason. From this. Never do that to just the magic switch. And I'm thinking, stay here, analyze this, examine this. You were right the first time.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:10:34] Trust yourself. That was you saying this thing, and then you gave it away to somebody to make a judgment about it. And you see it all the time. I heard someone stand on the stand and say, I didn't want to go and protest Prop 8. I didn't think it was right.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:10:51] I didn't know what to do and stuff. And then somebody said, here, just go do this, and you'll be fine. And I was called to go do this, and I did it, and it turned out to be okay. But I wanted to say, trust your first instincts. Your first voice was telling you this wasn't right. This wasn't a good thing to do. But we turn it over. We turn it over. And because we don't think that we have, especially women. Women turn it over easier than men do because we don't have any authority whatsoever.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:11:23] That's another thing. I got tired of speaking two languages at church because if I wanted to, if Sister Turner wanted to, had a great idea about something, wanted to say something, and blah, blah, blah, I know how to say it. You go up to someone and I would say, brother Dehlin, I was. I had this really great idea and I think it'd be fabulous and it'd really help with the members. The missionary work had soar. Blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, I probably noticed about two minutes in, your eyes would start to glaze over and you would, you know, just kind of, you would be, listen.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:11:58] You'd listen to me and be really nice, really polite. But inside you'd be thinking, sister Turner, that's not your bailiwick and you don't have any authority to say that and all this. And you know, that's very nice of you to do this, but if I want the idea to be heard, then I learn my second language. And the second language is Brother Delynn. I was talking to my husband last night and I told him this idea and Terry thought it was fabulous. He said, oh, you've got to mention it to Brother Dehlin and you tell him that I thought it was a really good idea and you'll be all over it.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:12:33] You know what I mean? You learn things like that and. But see, all of that, that awareness came so much later as I started feeling that not being able to be a whole equal person without having derogatory terms like your what are the negative things women are that have comments out of place? Or all of those demeaning terms that women are used to having thrown at them and keep them. They're just meant to keep us in our place and to keep going is amazing. I remember reading Joanna Brooks, Book of Mormon Girl and Joanna Brooks.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:13:20] I love Joanna because Joanna was the first woman I'd ever been around where Joanna commands a presence. I don't know what that means. Do you know what? I don't know how to explain this. Where she's like, she's just Joanna and she doesn't care who you are. You are. I mean, she's very loving. I don't mean like that, but I just mean she's not afraid to say anything or she doesn't worry if what she's saying is important or not important. She doesn't have any of those things that women go through where they. Well, should I say this? Who wants to hear this? Or I don't have the right to say that.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:14:00] I don't have this. She owns it. She owns it. And I have since met many, many women like her that are that. And it's like, you know, and I admire them because you know what? They never saw that. They never saw that up on the stand. They never saw it in meetings of council. There's just so many wonderful women.

John Dehlin [00:14:27] That's homebrew.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:14:28] Yeah. Well, you know what's interesting is when I, when I. Well, we'll talk about that after. But because about that part, but I don't know, there were just so many things that at the time that. And I would counsel with anybody, I would say this isn't a race. If you're having a hard time or figuring things out, take your time, read it, know it, understand it and figure it out. Because it's probably one of, you know, for a Latter Day Saint, it's probably one of the biggest, hardest decisions they make in their life.

John Dehlin [00:15:03] You mentioned off camera feeling some frustration with some of the things maybe said by Richard Bushman or the Givens.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:15:10] Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:12] Kind of not apologists, but sort of, I call them neopologists, kind of New Order Mormons, progressive Mormons.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:15:20] They're trying to put a bow on a pig. They're trying to make it like justify it or make it right. You know, it's like Richard Bushman, when they caught him on tape saying, church's got to do something about this because this is an actual. This isn't factual. What did he say the quote was? Something like that, you know, the historical

John Dehlin [00:15:42] narrative is not sustainable.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:15:44] The historical. Yeah, it's not sustainable. Well, okay, duh, you know, I mean, we're way past that. Okay. Then he goes, this is going to cause some problems for some of the older people in the church. And it really bothered me because it's like, why is this going to cause problems? Because you're rationalizing now and going on and making this, what's the thing? You're going to be complicit in inoculating a new generation. And in order to do that, you've got to kind of shift the words and stuff. Only, you know, just like I said, I'm not mad at Joseph Brigham Young. I'm mad at every prophet from that point that has shifted that story and made it what it needs to be.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:16:23] And you're going to keep doing it. Only now I see it because now we have the web and we have video and we have some way of. Now people have to have accountability, don't they? They can't say things like that. And not have people know about them and see what's going on. And when they talk about, like, I'll say to somebody, well, like, did you know about the first vision? And they'll say, oh, yeah, because you know why? Because the church is doing this inoculation thing. And they're saying, yeah, there's problems with the first vision. And they throw the words out. The members pick up the words we've

John Dehlin [00:16:57] been talking about forever, and then they

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:17:00] say, we've been talking about forever. Yeah. And they say this stuff. So in other words, the church gives them words. They members pick up the words and then they repeat the words. But you want to say, oh, I know all about the first vision, and I just want to go, do you now? Tell me. Tell me what you think. But they don't know anything. They just know that there's problems with it. But it's okay because the church is taking care of it. They're doing all the thinking.

John Dehlin [00:17:24] It started with Hugh Nibley. It's like, oh, the Book of Abraham. But Hugh Nibley's really smart. He's an Egyptologist.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:17:29] We knew about that.

John Dehlin [00:17:30] We don't have to worry about that.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:17:31] Church knew about that in the 60s.

John Dehlin [00:17:32] Yeah, right, the 60s. But I'm just saying that technique is not new.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:17:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:37] You pick a really smart person and say they know it all and they still believe, and then the average member is going to be, that's fine. These are not the drugs you're looking for. And they just kind of move on.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:17:47] Well, how's it working for you? It's doing pretty good. Because it keeps people.

John Dehlin [00:17:52] No, I think it's because in many ways that's why they keep doing it. The church meets many fundamental needs of many people.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:18:00] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:18:01] So why would they want to consider your way? Because it's scary and dark.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:18:05] But if you are given your life. My husband was never home raising my kids. I raised our kids because he was in meetings or sitting on the stand or doing something, which at the time we were thrilled to do. But there were times when it was really hard. I had three kids under three, and I would have loved having him around more, but yet I believed in what he was doing and I supported him and we did this thing. But you kind of find out when you get the other end of it and start dissecting it. It really isn't a church about families. It takes fathers out of the families all the time and mothers and. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:18:44] But what if somebody says, you have wonderful kids and look at how blessed you Are. That's actually a good thing. Like you, yeah, you sacrificed, but Christ sacrificed and sacrifice is part of the deal.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:18:55] Well, I'm just saying, if you're going to do that, if you're going to sacrifice your life and you're going to give 10% of your income, you doggone well better know what it is you're doing it for and everything about it. If you're making a choice and say. And you decide, you, yes, I know about the problems. Yes. In fact, I don't even believe in Joseph Smith. I don't believe in all of these things. But I like what the church has become. I don't mind doing that or something, you know, and I'm sure there's a lot of people that make that bargain and do that deal. And for me. And it's like. And then people are starting to change things and making things more nuancey and more. You know, there's another method, symbolic.

John Dehlin [00:19:42] Look at. It looks metaphorical.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:19:43] It's metaphorical. And, you know, you're going to watch, you know, 10 years, the book of Mormon will not be historic. You know, we're seeing that happen now. You know, Book of Mormon stories has gone by the boards. There's no more Lamanites. I mean, but you know what? Nobody says, you know what? There's no more Lamanites. It just slowly gets pulled out of the landscape. Until one day you say to somebody, when was the last time I sang Book of Mormon stories? And they go, gosh, it's been years. I wonder why they quit doing that. And you just. It's like the lobster being cooked in the pot. And it's not because anyone's stupid. It's just because we turn it all over to someone else and say, make the decisions for me, and I trust that you are making them with God. And I don't have to think about this.

John Dehlin [00:20:31] And what if somebody were to say to you, it's a good way to live? And so, yeah, hand it over. Because you end up what you get. You. Maybe you lose some autonomy, maybe you lose some empowerment, maybe you lose, you know, a full knowledge of what's going on, but what you gain is a really good way to live.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:20:49] Well, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:50] If somebody said, I don't want to know because it's a good way to live, would you have an argument for them to.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:20:56] Well, my son said that, mom, you were happy. You and dad were happy. You can't say you weren't happy. He said that before. And I, and I, and I get that. But when I look back, I was happy. At what cost? And then when I look back, there's some things that, where I was actually exhausted and didn't like that got pushed down, got put away somewhere. And I don't think that was a healthy thing. It's sort of like what were you just saying about the. You were just saying something.

John Dehlin [00:21:28] Just that it's a good way of living. It's like, okay, I know what is

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:21:34] it a good way of living that, that women are not equal to men? Is that a good way of living? When I didn't know any better? Yeah, it was pretty good. It worked. The system worked. It kept everything even killed, didn't it? But is that what I want for my daughters? Is that what I want for my granddaughters? No.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:21:49] So it depends on where your consciousness is at the time. Do you know what I'm saying? So, okay, and then how about some other things? Like I said a gay kid. You got a gay kid? Yeah. Oh, the minute you don't do the party line, all of a sudden you're, you're never going to feel like you're in the club. Club. And then last night I was sitting at a table with women I had never met before, except for two. And as they were going around the room talking about their life and different things, they were saying what they were doing with their lives and how they were doing things.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:22:23] And it was like, when it got to me, I just said, do you know how amazing this is? I said, if I would have sat around at a table with my peers when I was your age and talked about working a job or doing something with a non profit or taking meals in, you know, part time with doing things like this, you know, it just wouldn't have been said, it wouldn't have been done because your role was clearly defined for you and that was your role and that's what you had to do. And women who worked outside of the home lived with such horrible guilt or shame and worried if they were ruining their kids or damning them to hell and all these things.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:23:02] And there was all, all this shame going around. And as I listened to all of these women and talk and then talking about their children and their. It's just so much healthier. So go back to that. When I was raising kids.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:23:20] I don't, you know, I leaked out everywhere. I had to do something. I've been a florist, a decorator, I got, I've worn so many hats because I had all this part that was Kim, that wasn't Terry's wife and wasn't my kid's mother that wanted some kind of expression. But yet I believed what the prophet said about being home with my children and taking care of my children.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:23:45] And I did love that. I did. But where would I be today if I would have still done that, but maybe went to school and got the degree I always wanted to do? Always. And you know what was really baffling about that is because they were always saying to stay home and raise the kids and do all this kind of stuff, and your husband was always gone and serving and doing things, and there was just these roles. So that life became something to endure that's gone. Life is, like, magnificent. It's not something to endure or to get through or to struggle with or to all these things.

John Dehlin [00:24:26] And it's sacrifice.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:24:27] Oh, my gosh. You know, that feeling that you're working for the cause keeps you working for the cause. And meanwhile, if you took five minutes and stopped, you'd go, this is really hard on me. This is really hard on us. I would do something different if I could do something different. And so when you say, well, you were happy. Yeah, I was happy because I was obedient and I was doing what I was getting A's for what I was doing. But I wonder what I'd be like now if I was able to do these other things, if you know what I mean?

Losses of Friends, Family, and Community

John Dehlin [00:24:59] It's like the Truman Show. It's like, yeah, Truman was happy in his world until he realized the world was fake. And then he's like, no, I want what's real, not what's happy, but fake. You know what I mean? So, I mean, that's the argument. I think the people deserve a chance to live in reality and to make their own decisions with the full information.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:25:23] Right, right, right. And that's why I think people should be able to choose. You know, that's why the facts aren't scary to me, you know, because, I don't know, somebody said, well, what if they told you all those things and you, blah, blah, blah, would you stay or would you, you know, do whatever? But I don't know that I would because I was there because I believe this miraculous thing happened. I don't know. I don't know why, but that was like, that answer to that, you know, it's what.

John Dehlin [00:25:53] You know, we've had a lot of people who were, you know, millennials, who were 20 somethings, 30 somethings, even 40 somethings. I think what's different about your and Terri's journey, that's Unique is that you're going through a faith crisis as grandparents. Like, even the.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:26:13] At the end of your life.

John Dehlin [00:26:14] Yeah. Even the hackings. I don't. Well, maybe. Maybe they've got a couple little kids, but not. Anyway, so let's talk about that. So what's it like, you and Terry? It's early to mid-2014, and you've just decided we're done. Done. What's it like to be staring whatever remaining years you have in the face saying, what do we do now? You got kids and grandkids still in the church, a bunch that are out. You've invested all this time and money in something that turned out to not be true. What was that like? How did you rebuild? Where did you start? Well, was it hard at first?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:27:02] The hardest part in the beginning were the losses of family and friends, my dearest friends for 50 years. I knew that that relationship would now limp along. I knew that I broke my sister's heart. And I don't know if that will ever be the same.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:27:29] I was the one that brought the gospel to my little brother. And he wrote me a note, and he said, tell me, Kim, about what you're going through. Don't you remember this? Don't you remember this? It was lovely. It was not judgmental. It was.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:27:50] Have you forgotten this? Let me remind you about this. And this. He told me he loved me, but he wanted to know why I still have the letter. It's been a couple of years now in my dress, because as I started to write the letter to him to tell him why, I didn't want to tell him, because I don't want to say something that could harm him. But the other thing is, I don't want to hurt him.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:28:22] I've been on that other side. It's true. Hurt. I know that Latter Day Saints hurt and have pain about members that leave or go or go astray or they lose their kids. It's real. I understand that. And I knew what I'd be doing to my brother. So that letter still sits there. And my sister was upset that I needed to answer his question, and I just said, I don't want to hurt him. And then the next time I saw him, he was just like my little brother.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:28:55] I have five siblings that are incredible. We love each other. I think there's a lot, in part, why my kids are the way they are. I think they've seen the Sandburn kids, you know, and how they treat each other and love each other, and we're all different. We're all so different.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:29:12] And the church never went between us. It was not a matter of the church. It was a matter. We love each other no matter what. But so. So with Court, he was like, kind to me when he saw me and he didn't act any different. So I went, oh, good, I'm not going to send the letter.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:29:26] He's okay with me. He's okay. You know, then, you know, months go by and I've never seen him change anything. But I know that he's brokenhearted. I know that he is. And I've pictured myself sitting down and talking. He's my little brother. We're 15 years apart and I adore him. I've always been his big sister. I was the one in the family that kept everybody together, the glue, you know, I was the Mormon influence. I was the one that taught him how to pray. I was the one that taught him how to have a spiritual experience when he asked. He joined the church when he was 19, 20, and he's still active in the church.

John Dehlin [00:30:09] So you feel what?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:30:11] I felt huge pain at that because we'd gone through our whole life with all of us at different levels, some active, some not. Not all this had never had a problem, but my siblings had never sustained one of us. Like leaving the church, it was like it would be a new thing, you know, and my, even my brother that's never been active cracks me up. My brother Kyle, he says, okay, get it out of your system and then get back to church. I'm not going back, Kyle. But anyway, my other brother just blew his mind. He just couldn't believe it because he knew the dedication that we had to the church all of our life.

John Dehlin [00:30:50] What else was hard?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:30:52] Let me see. What else was hard? That was wondering what friends would stick by and what friends wouldn't. Wondering how our children would survive. Wondering how at the time, if our son in law could forgive us and still love us like we still loved him.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:31:13] And just all those things, that was the hardest part. That by far is the hardest part. You know, going to church or going to meetings or sitting in a class. I never missed any of that because Turner's kind of didn't.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:31:31] Our life didn't revolve around the ward. Like that wasn't our only social and spiritual and community experience. We lived larger than that because of our experiences, living outside of the country and things like that. So that wasn't as big a loss for that thing.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:31:53] I remember the first time I went back to a chapel for a funeral after we'd been out of the church for a year and a half. And I thought, oh, how's it going to feel to walk in the church? And I went to the door and I was waiting for Terry, and Terry was walking across the parking lot, and he had on his beautiful gray suit, his white shirt, and a beautiful red tie. And I looked at him and I just remembered when he was active in the church and the many times that I saw him dressed like that and how you, you know, you have those kinds of moments that you miss that are good.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:32:26] But I've come to know that I don't have to quantify them. I don't have to say, well, I should forget about that experience now that I'm here or wish it hadn't happened. I don't have to do any of that. I own it. I own it. I love seeing him in a white shirt and tie, and I love that time. But that time's not here anymore. It's okay.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:32:47] I don't have to. You know, there was a thing with Doug Fabrizio and this woman who was Jewish and no longer believed. And he said to her, when you go in your house, you've got. I can't remember what the plaque was.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:33:02] It had a description of Jewish values and different things. I can't remember what it was called. And he said, I know for a fact you don't believe any of that yet. Why do you have that when you walk in your home? Why is it so. It's such a prominent spot in your home?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:33:17] And she said, because I loved my time when I believed in that and it was a part of my life. Why do I have to cut that out of my life? Why can't I own all the parts of my life? But we live in a world of polarization, don't we? Politics, church. You're either in or out, Democrat or Republican or liberal or conservative.

John Dehlin [00:33:46] So did you have to make a decision to come out to family and friends, and how did you handle coming out?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:33:51] We never made a formal coming out. We just kind of.

John Dehlin [00:33:55] To your siblings to.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:33:56] No, with our kids. We did with your kids. I did tell my sister.

John Dehlin [00:34:01] But most of your kids were out by the time.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:34:03] Yeah, well, they were all kind of coming out. Yeah. They were all working. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:06] So it's just Jen and her husband. That was the concern because pretty much everyone else was. Was done by the time he came out.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:34:15] And then we just told people, will. We wanted it to kind of go out organically. There's a lot of friends that are very dear to us. That we've never told our story to today as I'm sitting here. And we've thought about it, and we thought about the hurt it would cause, and we just thought, if they want to know, we'll tell them. But we had.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:34:41] Terry was part of a group that he loved with the Missionary Companions, that group that came out of his mission, and they met every conference for conference in Bones is what they called it. And then as they had sons and their sons got to be 12, the boys got to go. And even when Josh was not in the church, Josh would always go to the restaurants and save the places, because it's conference night, priesthood night anyway. And the restaurants would fill up and Josh would go save the places. And Josh always went to dinner with all these boys and Terry, and they would. And Terry, when the kids were little, you know, he'd give them money if they come up with answers.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:35:25] So they would listen to the priesthood thing. Right. Well, as we started going through this, and, you know, we've never had an official discussion with these people, but they just one day quit asking us to come. And I think they've observed probably on Facebook, some of our unhappiness with the church, with things. And of course, then when some of them saw John Dehlin at my son's wedding, they knew, oh, my gosh, this family's done.

John Dehlin [00:35:52] But you're saying with a lot of people, you just decided not to really go there. Why bother?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:35:57] Why? Because there's nothing you can say or do. And if somebody asks, we're honest and open about everything. I'm not ashamed of one thing. In fact, I tell women that I counsel with all the time, you don't look at the floor. You look them in the eye. You don't have to turn away that you've done nothing, nothing to be ashamed of. And then I think about this. All this is is just a decision not to go to a church anymore. And yet there's these huge ramifications in this society here on the Wasatch front. Don't you think it's kind of crazy?

John Dehlin [00:36:31] Totally. Anyway, okay, so that's about coming out. And you didn't get love bombed from your ward. Your ward just ignored you.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:36:43] Yeah. Except for the few people that decided to risk it.

John Dehlin [00:36:49] So the hardest parts have been.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:36:50] But they weren't mean either. When we see them. No, they were a couple. We had one guy that went with his shopping cart really fast and whipped around the corner. And another guy that Terry, called me on the phone one day and goes, I Had my first shunning. It was just like a month ago. I said, you did? What happened? Well, you know, so and so. He always said, I gave the best lessons, and we always had these great conversations. And I know we were really good friends and everything, but he saw me coming and I saw him, and I was going to give him a big hug, and he put his head down, looked at the floor, and zipped past me.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:37:23] He says, so I guess I've had my first shunning. But you know what? This is the thing. I keep going back to this forgiveness and love and empathy thing because the members don't know what to do, because the church isn't leading the way and saying, it's okay, it's okay.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:37:42] I think they're trying to do their best or they're trying to figure it out themselves, too, you know, and they're trying to try. I don't have any animosity towards that or them. It doesn't do any good to think that way. I'm tired of the sides. I'm tired of people taking sides.

John Dehlin [00:38:01] Sure, absolutely. So any other hardest parts about the transition? It's mourning, you said morning. Worrying about the close relationships. Like there's all sorts of. The identity, you know, the morality, the sense of meaning and purpose.

Mourning the Life You Might Have Had

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:38:23] Well, you mourn the life you might have had, too. You think about things like, what if I had gone to college? What if I had done other things? Or what if our goals hadn't always been to. I don't know.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:38:39] I think women pay that more or have to deal with that more so than men do, because I don't see at least the men in our generation where a lot was withheld from them. And, you know, what was always interesting, too, was the fact that I'd be told in women's conferences and women's sessions that I needed to stay home and raise my family and do all these things from women who sat on boards, who were educated, who had master's degrees, who had their doctorate. And they were the women that were telling me, and I remember as a young wife and a young mother, just saying, okay, okay, I'll do that.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:39:20] But, you know, I don't see one of me in the presidencies of the church. I don't see me up there. I don't see a normal, ordinary woman like me up there. Where is she? That was always, you know. You know, always made me wonder.

John Dehlin [00:39:44] Sure. So what about, like, did you feel a loss of identity, a loss of meaning, a loss of purpose? You say you lost friends Right.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:39:59] But you know what? I didn't lose any identity by then. I was pretty firmly entrenched in who I was. That kind of happens with women anyway when they turn 20. It's kind of a mix. 30, you start to individuate more. It's a good time. But 40 and 50 and 60, so just those normal experiences were already coming to me and those bode well for going through a. And I don't call it, by the way, I don't call it a faith crisis because it was never a crisis of my faith. It was a crisis of reason for me. It didn't make sense. And the faith crisis. I had faith that kept me in for eight long years of figuring things out. You know what I mean? It wasn't a faith crisis. My faith kept me in long, but it was like. It was like. I don't know, it was.

John Dehlin [00:41:03] Any other parts that were hard, trying to think?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:41:08] Yeah, it was hard. Worrying. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:41:13] Did you worry about what? About my kids? Will they. Will they. Their lives be screwed up? Will our grandkids not have something to hold on to? No. Did you worry about that?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:41:22] I didn't do that because, see, I knew that you could be a good person and you could have good values. Because I was raised by non animals.

John Dehlin [00:41:30] Because your parents.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:41:30] Yeah. Yeah. So it was like, yeah, it can be done. You know, See, the first hand I didn't feel. So I guess I didn't feel those worries other than just I was going to be different than I was before. But that got worked out with Jenny and I just figured things would work themselves out and they have. And then, you know, I'm trying to think what other things. And see, we took our time. And because we did it the way we did it, we were on solid ground. We were pretty sure of what we were doing and we were ready for any consequence at that point.

John Dehlin [00:42:06] Right.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:42:07] And, you know. Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:12] Okay, so let's talk about where you are now.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:42:17] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:42:17] Is that all right?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:42:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:18] And I also want to talk about why you started walking, but we'll get there.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:42:22] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:42:23] So what are your beliefs now about God? Let's start with God.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:42:28] Boy, you're really going for the gusto, aren't you?

John Dehlin [00:42:30] Oh, this is the easy stuff.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:42:32] Oh, my gosh. Okay. I remember thinking that if I ever didn't believe in God or have God in my life, that it would be a devastating thing. But when Joseph Smith no longer was the author of my spiritual life and my view of everything that had to do with religion I was left with a blank slate.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:43:04] It was blank. There wasn't anything there. And I know that this happens to a lot of Mormons. In fact, people always say all the time, why is it that Mormons become atheists after they leave? At the time, it was because I thought I knew about all other religions, and there wasn't one. I wanted, for one thing, if I couldn't be a Mormon or have Mormonism, there wasn't anything else I wanted to do or wanted to be.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:43:31] And so I just. And it was funny. People would say, well, are you going to go to another church? Are you going to do this? And it was like, Terry and I, we called it the allergy. The minute somebody started talking about doing another church or going to another meeting and doing another thing, it was like we could feel our body break out in a rash.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:43:50] It just wasn't going to be. So everything left. Everything left. I had a painting of the Savior that I love, that Minerva Teichert painted with Christ in the red robe that I love. And I had painted a room, and I had to hang that back up. And I thought, do I hang this back up?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:44:13] Then I thought, you know, my life has been governed by this man, Jesus Christ, and his words as I understood them. He has a place in my life. And the picture went back up. I don't believe him to be the Son of God. And I don't believe in.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:44:37] I don't know. I don't believe anything, actually. I'm open to the universe. Completely, completely open. I don't want to give it a name because I don't know, but I know it's empty. That spot is empty. And as much as I'd love to have a relationship with deity or with Christ or with God, there's nothing there right now. And I'm okay with it. And it's not devastating. I'm okay.

John Dehlin [00:45:09] Some people are like, well, that's just too bad for you. You're just. I mean, that must be terrible. You're. You're now in your 60s or whatever, and you're like, oh, no more God. Like, what do you have to live for? Why even bother?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:45:22] Like, well, you know, the first thing to go for me was what? Satan. First thing. Wasn't even thinking about it. One day I sat there and I went, there's no Satan. Oh, my gosh, this is the stupidest thing I've ever heard of. Why?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:45:37] And I analyzed that. Because, you know, you're always taught in psychology, you're taught that you have to own your stuff. Right. In order to change something, you have to own that it exists, right? You have to say, you know, I have this problem. And once you own it, then you can change it, right? It has no more power because you're, you know. But if you constantly give it to somebody else, right? Or keep it outside of yourself or blame someone else, right?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:46:03] There's no power to change anything. You've given it away, right? That's how it was with Satan. For me, it's like, wait a minute. Evil exists in the world. People are evil. Things go wrong that are evil because we do it. We cause evil to happen. We bring evil into the world by our acts, our evil acts and our evil thinking and all of those things. Nobody's making us do anything. Nobody's haunting us. When Sister Dalton said that terrible thing, that terrible quote about the women's march, and then the next paragraph was a paragraph of how he's in our thoughts and he's heightened his efforts, and he's doing this and he's doing that, I wanted to go, ah, oh, my gosh, no, no, because then what?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:46:52] That means we can't do anything to change it. We've assigned it to Satan or to God or to Christ, right? Well, now all the buck stops with me. And for me, eternal life goes the other way.

John Dehlin [00:47:07] What do you mean?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:47:09] I don't know if there's an eternal life. I don't know anymore because the person that gave me that doesn't exist anymore. So I go, what do I believe? And then it dawned on me. One day, my eternal life goes through my family.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:47:24] It goes eternally the other direction. And being 60 or going to be 65 this year, but when I turned 60, I remember thinking, am I living the kind of life that my children will be proud of when I die?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:47:44] Those are the people I want to impress or to have served and to have loved and to have value from my life, not some imaginary place or thing or person. And I thought, will my grandchildren? Will my life be important to them? Am I doing important things so they can say, my grandma did this, my nana did this, my Nana did that. You know, when I went up to the women's march up here at the Capitol building, and I took my granddaughters, you know, I was thinking, oh, you know, I don't need to be there, me, myself. But I think it was important that they saw their Nana there and fighting for things that she thinks are not right.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:48:30] You know, it's like when women were complaining about, oh, why do women have to march? And why do they have to complain about the world and fight about this and you don't even know what they're marching for and all this stuff? And I'm thinking they're sitting and one woman said, yeah, if I want to change something, I just change it. I just make my life better and everything. And I just wanted to.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:48:54] In all of your ignorant white privilege sitting here, do you know the reason why you can go and fix your life and do what you need to do and have the things that you do? Because you are standing on the shoulders of, guess what, Unladylike women, women who behaved unladylike and gave us the vote, gave us the right to have credit, gave us the right.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:49:20] The person that you need to talk to about all of those things are Nadine, because she understands those things backwards and forwards. And Nadine is one of the feminist greats of this church. She's one of the greatest. Yeah, she is.

John Dehlin [00:49:33] So when somebody says, what a sad, meaningless life to not have a God and a Christ in a heaven to sort of like, hang your hat on, what do you say to that?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:49:44] Well, I say, oh my gosh, I just got all my power back to make my life better, to take care. I mean, that's not scary to me.

John Dehlin [00:49:51] It's like, but what if they say life's too painful? Like, if there's not an afterlife, you're

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:49:57] talking to a perpetual optimist here. So that has a little bit to do.

John Dehlin [00:50:02] Because some people say life's too painful. If there's not afterlife, I don't want

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:50:06] to live it well, because they've been conditioned to think that life is painful and it's this, and they need to stop and look around. Because even if you like, for me, right now, I take great comfort from science. Science is amazing to me because to think that you and I are standing here because of what happened on this world billions of years ago and how. How it is all evolved and how it has all come to be that we're standing here and can. Can speak and say and do and think the things and live in this place. I don't know, It's. It's pretty amazing to me.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:50:42] There's just. I don't have to try to figure out how the Earth could only be 6,000 years old and. And did dinosaur parts come here from other worlds that were put here, you know, do these gymnastics, you know, about things. And evolution isn't scary to me anymore. And yes, when eternal life went, I had to say goodbye to my parents again. I had to Say I may never see you again and hope that, you know, if I do, I do. But I may, I may not. And I don't know why it's not scary to me, John, because if I would have you had asked me that 10 years ago, I probably would have just broke out in a cold sweat and said, I hope that never happens.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:51:22] But I don't know. It's. I feel like I'm still here. I'm still open. I. I love listening to people talk. I'm not into things. I'm not searching for anything. I'm not searching. That's the other thing. I don't feel a quest.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:51:40] I don't feel like I have to do something so I can make this life meaningful. I think the meaning comes every day in how I treat people, how I perceive a need, how I treat my children, how I love my husband, how I serve people. I don't know. I feel like I still look around. Only the neat part about it is, before, I used to have to wait until I was given an assignment, and then I only got to help the people in this little three block block radius. And if I ever. You know, it's like this perpetual help each other out thing. I never got to go out beyond those bounds.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:52:22] And now I don't have to wait for some woman to tell me, we've got this assignment or we're going to do this thing. I feel like I have the impetus that no matter what I want to do, I can do anything I want to do.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:52:38] There's no system I'm part of, no hierarchy that I have to get permission from. One of the biggest things we learn in WACA is, you know, we're used to asking for permission. We don't have to ask permission anymore.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:52:55] And, you know, it's really, really interesting how that has worked. But so. So I don't know why, but my world got bigger and my heart got bigger. Which reminds me of the time when Josh first came out, and I said, okay, I love Josh, and I can love all the gay kids like Josh, but I don't know if I can go the other way. I don't know if I can go with the others.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:53:27] And then I went, and I'd meet them and I would talk to them, and I'd go, okay, I can love you, I can love you, and I can love kids like Josh, but I don't know if I can go any further here. This is just stretching my limits here. And then I'd meet the next group, the transgendered or the Bisexual or the people that are asexual, just whatever. And I'd go, okay, I can love you, too. I can't stand this anymore. I have to draw the line. I can't do it. I can't love the ones that wear Carmen Miranda fruit on their heads.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:54:02] And of course, you know the end of that story. And I couldn't. It was an actual. I was actually. I was actually surprised that my heart was getting bigger, not smaller. And the same thing happened with transition. My heart has gotten bigger, not smaller.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:54:28] And I had to mourn the fact that I always wanted an obituary that said all these wonderful things like the song always bothered me about. I see my mother kneeling as the family gathers. You walk by and there's mom kneeling. And I say, apologize to my kids all the time. I'm sorry I'm not that Mormon mother that you get to see in my bedroom. And then I'm doing all these things because I'm a hugely, hugely flawed person, an imperfect person. And I did not fit the mold of the perfect Mormon woman. I tried, but it wasn't. You know, there were so too many things that just weren't me.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:55:10] I was more out here always kicking the pricks or wanting to knock the hole through the box and climb out and see what was there and all that stuff, you know.

John Dehlin [00:55:19] But this question is going back a little bit. Okay, but. Atheist, agnostic. Do you like those labels or no?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:55:24] No.

John Dehlin [00:55:25] You don't like them?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:55:25] No. But, you know. But if I believe in nothing, agnostic means you don't know.

John Dehlin [00:55:31] Yeah.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:55:32] And atheism means you don't believe in God. Yeah, well, I just don't know. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:55:39] So that's agnostic. But you don't like the label.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:55:43] Yeah, but I don't care. You can give me the label. I can own it.

John Dehlin [00:55:46] I'm just curious. I don't think it's important, but some people do.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:55:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:50] So.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:55:50] And I don't. I don't want religion joining another church.

John Dehlin [00:55:53] You're out of that choice.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:55:55] No.

John Dehlin [00:55:56] And morality, it sounds like morality for you is just based on love one another kind of golden rule.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:56:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:01] That's your morality. And somebody says, oh, you're good. I mean, I guess you're the age where it's probably not tempting to go out and try drugs and sleep around a lot. I mean, it sounds like at your age, how you root your morality is not really a concern. No, you root your morality in.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:56:22] Huh?

John Dehlin [00:56:23] You root your morality in what? I didn't want to.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:56:25] My parents gave Me, my morality. And then the church had reinforced it. But one time, I remember letting the church co opt my parents and they got restored back to their rightful place in my life.

John Dehlin [00:56:40] Yeah, yeah.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:56:42] And their influence and stuff. Oh yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:45] So your morality is based on your upbringing?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:56:47] Yeah. And see, I was solid enough in everything that I don't feel unmoored. And I don't know if it's because I'm older and life doesn't unmoor as easily as it does in your 30s and 40s or 20s even. I don't know if that's it. I've had a strong set of morals for a long period of time.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:57:10] But the one thing that I do know, that I've changed in lots of views about sexuality, about people, like having sex before marriage does not break my heart. Living together with someone doesn't break my heart. I feel like people just need to find their ways in those kinds of things. And.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:57:32] And you know, my little grandson the other day said, wanted to know if he's nine and if his girlfriend could come to a family party. And I said of course. And Jared said, well, he actually wants her to come to all the family parties. And I said, oh, that would be fun. Yes, of course she can come.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:57:55] And when they left and Campbell just got this, and he was so cute and he was so wonderful. And then they just walked out and left. And I sat down and I thought, my, how far you've come, Kim?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:58:08] Because normally I would have looked at that experience and I would have, I would have looked to judge rather than look to understand. And I would have. And when you look to judge, I would have said, now Campbell, you're only nine years old.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:58:25] You probably shouldn't have what you think is a girlfriend come to family parties. Those are things you do when you get older. When you get to be about 15 or 16, you'll be doing the six. That's what it would have been. But instead I looked to understand and I saw a child that's going through a normal, normal crush or normal first bloom, first experiences with, you know, having a little crush with someone. Do you know what I mean? And I didn't shoot it. So in those ways, lots of those things have changed.

Facing Mortality and Finding New Spirituality

John Dehlin [00:59:02] Okay, so the sting of death for you, your own death and other people's death and seeing all your family again after you live, what have you done with that?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:59:15] Well, I went and sat on my parents grave. Terry and I are going to be cremated because we have never really gone to our parents graves or things like that. Because when we were Mormons, we believed they weren't there anyway and it was just a grave to hold a body.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:59:31] But now I decided one day, went and sat down on my parents graves and I remember the grass and the mountain right there and looking at the mountain and hill and I said, okay, mom and dad, I'm here.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:59:47] I don't know what I believe. I don't think there's life after death. I think you're gone and I don't think I'll ever see you again. Let me know. I'm sitting here, I'm open. Let me feel something. Are you here? Are you there? And had this conversation and I sat there and I sat there and the thing that was pretty cool about it was they weren't there. There was nothing there.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:00:16] There was nothing there and I wasn't sad. And I looked at the mountain and I thought, but that mountain is there and that sky is there and this beautiful world is here. I'm looking at the most magnificent scene. There's nothing to be sad about.

John Dehlin [01:00:34] But you'll never see him again.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:00:37] How do you, how do you quantify that?

John Dehlin [01:00:39] They don't exist.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:00:40] If I don't see them again, I won't know that I don't see them again. But if I see them again, I feel like I will have lived. If this pre life is a precursor to something, whatever, I feel like I can stand proudly and say I did the best I could, I lived as honorably as I could, I made tough decisions and I did the hardest thing I could ever do. And if you fought me for that, then do with me what you will. I'm not worried. I don't know. I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:01:07] So if there's nothing after this life, you won't be around to be sad about it?

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:01:10] No. Think about it logically. You won't know there's nothing left in this life. And if there is, and if there

John Dehlin [01:01:18] is, that's a bonus.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:01:18] Then you'll work it out.

John Dehlin [01:01:20] Then it's a bonus.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:01:21] You'll work it out. It'll be what it is. And I think, well, if it's going to be based on any principles or any character or any integrity, I feel like I can stand shoulder to shoulder with somebody else. I made mistakes, but I tried my best.

John Dehlin [01:01:35] Isn't it funny? The Book of Mormon kind of mocks people who say, eat, drink and be merry now because, you know, tomorrow you die. And they're basically saying people who view this life as essential to really enjoy and make the most out of it,

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:01:51] that that's instead of it being a torture. Yeah, yeah. See, that's. That's. Don't you think that's a gift? I get the ward releases. I used to. Because I asked not to get it anymore, but I used to get the ward newsletter, the release setting. Newslet. Do you know why I asked to be taken off the list?

John Dehlin [01:02:07] Why?

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:02:08] Because every time I'd read it, it would say, now we know that you sisters have had a long, hard week and that this life is hard and we need to do this. It was some kind of language, like that every time. And I wanted to say, sisters, this world is not hard in that way. Life is hard, yes. And there's people that suffer terribly and have terrible things happen to them, but it's the nature of this life. It's the nature of being a human being on a planet. I don't know. I love the idea of getting up every day and trying to make the day the best that it can be and being the best person I can be so that my children are. And their children and their children. And that's the greatest gift you can give the world, isn't it? Is good.

John Dehlin [01:02:57] Kids, does spirituality mean anything to you now? Do you even like that term? Have you sought secular spirituality or other forms?

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:03:07] Well, I've always, always been connected to the planet, to animals, to flowers. I bring the outside inside my house. Whereas there's not a plant. There's a plant everywhere. I bring the outside inside. So all of those things are deeply spiritual for me, but not in a religious spiritualness. It's maybe in a specialness because I feel like we're all connected.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:03:38] I love when Neil Degrasse Tyson talks about we're made of stardust and how all of that works. And I remember a day when that would have been, oh, my gosh, the worst thing you could ever, ever say or think. But to me now, it's like, oh, my gosh, do you know how incredible that is?

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:04:01] And I want my grandchildren to live every day for today. Not for something that they perceive they're going to be given or something that they've got to win a prize for or. That's so subjective and so. I don't know, and so judgmental. And so to me, if there's a spiritual being, I mean, let's say there's a being that is all knowing and all powerful. Right? Do you think he really would set this kind of a system up here on the Earth for all of us to go through hoops like hamsters and do these Things say, don't love your kids or kill people or shoot people or do.

John Dehlin [01:04:51] I mean, cut people off and.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:04:53] Yeah, but go back to.

John Dehlin [01:04:55] That you're better than other people.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:04:56] Crusades. And go back anytime. Religion. I went through a period about six months where I hated religion. I mean, because you. The history books, the things. Anytime there's any kind of a conflict or there's huge deaths in civilizations or people, it's because of religion. A religious thing thought that somebody thought they were. Had the moral imperative, or they thought things better or they had the best idea or, you know, I don't know. It just. So I really have a allergy to religion even, too, because I just. I don't know.

Relationship with Terry Through the Transition

John Dehlin [01:05:31] So in terms of relationships, what has this done to your relationship with Terry, this transition?

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:05:41] Well, like I spoke of before, we've had conversations that we thought were never possible again. Like we had when we were young, those intense conversations where you discover new things about each other and new thoughts and new feelings. It's like, wow, that's pretty cool, because, you know, you kind of settle into this normal or timed relationship and, you know, everything and stuff. So that was interesting to see that.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:06:13] It was just like. I don't know, it was like the first time when I got to see him as a grandfather and I knew what he was like as a husband and as a father. But to see him as a grandfather was a gift. And then to go through this and to see him, how he handles something so devastating to him and, you know, for him, he had things to give up.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:06:38] He had prestige, and he was a wonderful teacher, and he had a certain cred in his life that wherever he walked, he had. And to know that that's, you know. And I think oftentimes men don't talk about that.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:06:55] Women have. We've always known our place, and we've never had the power anyway. And there's all kinds of things that women don't have to go through. But I would think it would be tremendously difficult for a person. Like, I was actually having a conversation with someone that said, you know, all of a sudden, I don't know my place in my family.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:07:16] I used to be the head of my family. Now I'm in partnership. And the wife is thrilled because for the first time, she's more empowered. Empowered. But that feels scary to this person who was used to having that job. And so you can't. You know, you can't blame them. There's all. And there's little done to.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:07:37] For men to. I don't know if it's even possible if men do those things, process those things or talk or really say those things, you know, to each other and. But I think they kind of need to, but.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:07:51] Because there is a. There is, I think, more of a psychological, sociological, physiological change all the way around for men when they leave. I do. I think it's hard. And women, I don't know. I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:08:12] So overall, stronger relationship with.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:08:15] Yeah. Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:16] It strengthened your marriage.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:08:18] Yeah, yeah, it did. It just kind of. Yeah. And it. Again, I'm so glad when another big issue hits us that we were on the same page.

John Dehlin [01:08:30] Right. What about with your kids? Stronger, better relationship.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:08:34] Oh, so much better.

John Dehlin [01:08:36] It sounds like you had a good one before.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:08:37] We've always had a good one. But what's been kind of fun is I feel very uncomfortable talking about my children, about their own private things. But I've watched a couple of them. I'll just be general. Become more who they always wanted to be.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:08:54] They have permission now to do certain things. I think it's been hard because even though you know something psychologically, I think it's hard for parents, I mean, for kids, like to see their parents drink for the first time, or I think there's all those kinds of issues. It was hard for me the first time, too, because, like, even seeing my husband drink because it was like, oh, you know, that comes with. That comes loaded. You know, you get loaded in Mormonism. And then if you have any family issues with alcoholism or any of those things, you know, that's a loaded issue. And the one thing that was really good about it was, gosh, when we lived the word of wisdom with our family, I never had to worry about any of my children having an alcohol problem.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:09:41] And I've got a family. Terry has a family with alcoholism. So all of a sudden that's removed. That artificial thing is removed. And you go, oh, my gosh, is me doing this thing going to bring something to my family that I. But see, those are the things. That's the thing.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:09:58] There's an enmeshment that goes on that you're taught that you're responsible for everyone and everything. And so you have to say to yourself, you aren't. You have to separate yourself from that and say, you know, you're not going to be responsible if something like that happens. It's still our choices. That wasn't your choice.

John Dehlin [01:10:24] And bad things happen to members and bad things happen to me.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:10:27] So, I mean, it's fallacious. It's just like people that have children that threaten to commit suicide, and they are vigilant because if they. You know, if they look away at one moment, and if they take their life, they live the rest of life knowing that they. They could. They didn't. And you. You can't live that way.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:10:44] So I had to make peace with that, that my kids are adults. They're kind, they're good, they're wise, they'll make good decisions. But I still remember those were some of the things in the early days that were going, am I bringing something into my family that could hurt us?

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:11:00] And then I remember with jc, there's something that JC said to me that I remember. I was just so upset inside about her leaving. And I couldn't put my finger on it, why I was so worried about it and why and everything, because I really did understand it, and I knew it from the framework of what we were all going through. But when she.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:11:27] One day, she's sitting next to me, and she puts her hand on my arm right here, and she touched my arm, and she said, mom, I'm not going anywhere. I still love you. And I remember that went inside somewhere and just took it all away. And I realized that my being upset with her or worried about what she was going through had more to do with worrying about losing her.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:11:54] You know what they say, Underneath anger is fear. And when she said that to me, I thought, kim, let this all go. Then she's not going away. Your job now is to love her wholly and completely and unconditionally, like you always have.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:12:11] And then I have two questions I ask myself. First thing is, whenever my kids do something crazy and life happens, it's really crazy, I say, okay, is it going to kill you? And I'll think about it. No. Like, I think, what's the worst thing? Well, what if one of my kids gets married five times? Or what if one of my kids, you know, goes and lives on a nudist ranch? Or what if they do all something wild like this. Is it going to kill me? Nope.

John Dehlin [01:12:46] But someone said that's a low bar. Like, let me ask you a question. Do you have confidence? You just think about, like, people who live the Mormon dream, right? They're gonna have a happy marriage and lots of kids, and everyone's gonna get a good education, and they're all gonna, like, be moral and healthy and kind of Brady Bunch, you know, Osmond sort of happy, educated, bright, affluent people, right?

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:13:15] The parents get the medal because they have perfect children. They won the medal.

John Dehlin [01:13:19] No, but I mean, do you have a confidence that without a church community, without our religious belief systems, without a standard of morality that is kind of a high bar. Do you have the confidence that your kids and grandkids are going to have. Be able to reach the same heights that you and Terri reach with the church? Like, certainly, you guys are amongst the 99th percentile of blessed and fortunate and privileged on earth. How do you say that the church wasn't an important part of that and that you're not. Your kids and grandkids aren't going to be missing something by not having it? Missing something that would be important to their health and development?

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:14:02] Well, maybe there'll be something else to take its place. I mean, they won't know. And I don't know what will be with my grandchildren. I don't know if they'll be still in the church or if they'll be out of the church. But, you know. So you're asking,

John Dehlin [01:14:22] how do you know you're not trading down for your children and grandchildren?

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:14:25] Yeah, I'm trying to, but I guess part of the.

John Dehlin [01:14:27] Part of the answer to that is they left first. So many of them left first. It's like.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:14:31] But you know. And you know what else is. The thing is, is it's kind of when you buy a red car, you drive around and you see all the red cars. Well, it's the same way, like when you've left something you thought made you happy and was what you needed, then you go out and you find out all these other things. All of a sudden you see red cars everywhere that you never saw before.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:14:54] There's other ways to be happy. There's other ways to help along the way. There's other groups and activities and things that you can do. But this is one thing that I. That I do understand and it's propelled me, and that is that human beings need community.

Kim Sandberg Turner [01:15:12] I think we do better. Just like the animal kingdom, you don't see one deer out there in the forest running around. They're in herds or in packs. Human beings are the same way. We need each other. We need to hear our stories. We need to feel connected as human beings to each other. So some need it to a greater or lesser degree. And that was one of the things that propelled me to do waka.

Finding Community with Post-Mormon Women

Part 4 of 4 · Ep. 704

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:00:28] I remember, see, when I was. One of the things I was rescued by were the feminist Mormon women at girls camp. And I'll forever be indebted to them because they gave me my language, they helped me make sense of things. And at this time in the group, most of them were all active members of the church.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:00:56] I think most of them still are. A lot of them have left or have changed or are going through transitions, but they were just this marvelous group of women that allowed me, gave me a soft place to land because with them, I could say anything I wanted and do anything I wanted. And I was schooled by them. And I will forever be grateful to them for the.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:01:24] I don't know just what they. What they gave me back when it. When it could have been a very lonely, difficult time because I had them and I didn't have them that often. This is like once a year type thing. But then just the friendships that continued, you know, through them. And I. I've met wonderful people on the journey too, because the other thing was, as I. That's why I wanted to talk to you.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:01:45] I wanted to talk to the people that were telling the stories or saying the things because I wanted to look in their eyes. I wanted to hear what they had to say. And so that's why I put myself out there to meet people and to talk to people and get to know people. I wanted to talk to Jeremy Runnels and I got to. And I wanted to talk to people that were saying Grant Palmer. I wanted to talk to these people and see them and feel them and see. You know, I didn't want to just take everything that was on paper or whatever. So that has been an incredible journey and an incredible gift to meet people like you. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:25] And so that led you to feel like community was important.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:02:28] Well, yeah, community was important. And then I was also realizing as I was getting older, even when I was in the church, you know, ageism is alive and well with women. And especially in the church, when a woman becomes pastor, childbearing years and things like that, you know, she has rarely little to look forward to as far as any leadership or any kind of roles that she plays, you know, and stuff that way. And where whereas men get to look forward to becoming bishops and stake presidents and high counselors and mission presidents and 70s and their life still continues in the church. And we seem to be the ones that sit by holding our purses and listening to our, you know, our spouses, which.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:03:11] And, you know, that's okay too, if it's a Choice that you want to. If that's what you want to do, I think that's fine. But. So I was seeing this was an unserved segment of the population and in the community, and both in the community and in the church. And I kept saying to the feminists, I say, okay, you guys, we need to pay attention to your. Your matriarchs. And, and. And Joanna calls me the matriarch of the feminist girls, and I'm the matriarch. And. And. But, you know, we get that, but they're not good. Now I've come to the conclusion is they're not going to know what that's like until they are matriarchs themselves.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:03:50] Because you can try to explain it, what it. Like, what it feels like to be older and to a young person. I don't know where they put it or how they even get it, but there's this huge underserved population. So anyway, so I kept saying, we need to take care of these women. We need to take care of these women, and blah, blah, blah.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:04:08] And I felt like that never got. It never grew seed. It never grew from a seed. And then I would ask you, I'd say you would put me in different groups because I was looking for my people, and you'd throw me in a group and I'd be in that group and I'd go. And I'd been there for a while and I thought, I can't do this anymore. And I'd get out of the group too angry, too mad, too this, too that. You know, it was all different levels depending on where the people were in their transition.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:04:36] And then, you know, after watching people that I know go through the pain of all this transition and stuff, and then watching them go on and do good. Like in Feminist Mormon Housewives, Lindsay leaves and goes on and does year of polygamy, and Kate leaves and does ordain women, and different people leave and go on and give to the community. They know that. You know what I mean? That through pain, these things, you take the experiences of your life and turn it for good and go on and help and change the world.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:05:19] And that's, you know, and I'm watching you and watching these things happen, and I think, okay, I gotta quit trying to find people to do this thing for me. I'm just gonna have to create it. It's time. And that's when I thought about Waka, because it was like, first of all, I kept complaining all the time because I didn't want to be an ex Mormon. I Hate that word.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:05:45] And I don't mind post Mormon because it's a kinder word. But I'm not an ex Mormon. I will forever be this is a Mormon girl. But it's like I hated the names that I didn't want to be part of the.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:06:04] Oh gosh. Everything was everything post Mormon. Every post group had the word Mormon in it. And I thought, okay, if you're really done with Mormonism and you're moving on and you need to do that to be healthy, I think you truly do. You know, if you're going through hell, you just keep going, right? And it's like, it's like I wanted something else. And so I thought, okay, I'm going to create it and it's not going to have the word Mormon in it.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:06:30] And that's when I thought, okay, who are we? And that's why I thought, we're women of a certain age. And there's things that, I know it's a little cliche, but there's things that women of a certain age only know and understand and feel. And women of a certain age going through a crisis of this extent, it's devastating because you don't go through it alone. You go through it, your children go through it, your grandchildren go through it.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:06:59] You are not just some 20 year old that has to worry about yourself. It's huge. It's huge. And then you have the feelings of was my life wasted? And you have to deal with the feelings of what would I have been? Then you have to deal with the feelings like many of my Waka sisters say, they felt like they lost their husbands, they never had their husbands, they raised their kids on their own.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:07:26] There's so many issues that women of a certain age feel. And so I started the group and I just thought it was just going to be my little community of maybe five or 10 women that I could hang out with that would get me because we're the same age, right?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:07:46] That's all I thought it was going to be. And then it just started going. And then I started thinking, what's happening here? And. And then people started writing and people started telling me their stories and people started. And I'm going, okay, because I have been given much. I too must give.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:08:13] I love that song and I can own that song. And so there were just things like that. And then I did it for about a year and a half all by myself. And then I thought, I need a team, I need some help. You know the feeling. And so I did something kind of interesting. And they're going to be surprised to hear this. But when I was thinking about the people that I wanted to work with me because I didn't want it to be, I wanted to take away a lot of the constructs, a lot of the rules, a lot of the have to's, a lot of the shoulds, a lot of the.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:08:52] I didn't want any of that stuff anymore. And so I started envisioning this thing and I. But anyway, so the women that I picked are all different from me, all of them. I wanted a whole brained organization because you have a tendency to choose people to be on your team that are like you because then they support you. I didn't want that because I knew that there would be many diverse women in there. And there were. I already had a lot of women at that point and they were all different, you know. And so the reason I chose the team that I did is because each one of them had something I didn't have.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:09:32] And I knew we would need that. And I knew I had to humble myself to be part of this thing that I was watching grow, that we all, you know, that I, you know, it was just. I don't know, it was just really.

John Dehlin [00:09:45] So what does WCA do? What is the WKA experience?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:09:48] Okay, the WCA experience.

John Dehlin [00:09:49] So it's a Facebook page?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:09:50] It's a Facebook group? Yeah, it's Facebook based. In fact, there's no email, there's no other notices. If you don't do Facebook, sorry, we can't do it. It's just there's too many women to manage. And so what we did was they have to be. When I, you know, people have to ask to be in Waka because I don't. We don't do missionary work. We don't try to get people to come in. It's people that are done, that are earnestly seeking. And we always say, have them write me a message because then I know they want to come in. I had people that were women that were saying, oh, I've got this friend, she'll love being here and blah, blah, blah.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:10:27] And then I would message them and they wouldn't know what I was talking about. So you learn as you go along what works and what doesn't work. So now people, Women have to ask to come in. And then basically, I think the magic of WACA is the in person experiences and the sharing of our stories. We have two retreats every year. One is spring and fall and they're storytelling. That's all that we do. And we just tell each other stories and then we have what's called hi Jinks. And it's really fun and I can't tell you about it or I will have to kill you, but it's really fun.

John Dehlin [00:11:03] I've seen videos.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:11:06] We just do fun stuff. But there's a. When they're vetted, they have to sign what's called affirmations because they do not want to use the word rules. And they're affirmations, and they're just things that you affirm in life that we know now at our age, there are good things, good values. I try to deal with everything open and up front because I know in other groups you get admins that are over here and they talk and then they talk about the group. And there's a lot of that that goes on. I decided I don't want to do that. And so I called the women a team.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:11:41] And we deal with everything on the wall so there's no thing. And then if there's something I write to someone, I always let my team know this is what I wrote. I just want to be like that. And then we have the bees where, you know, you're. Be kind, be.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:11:56] I need to go get my bees. I don't have them memorized. Be you, be funny. But the big thing that we stress too is no gossiping, no things like that, which, you know, things that we try to stay away. Like, for one thing, we've got people now that are in waka that know each other and we say, please remember, you may know that person and know their story, but they have the right to tell their story. Don't tell their story just because you know it. And there's things we've learned that human beings do kind of, you know, and the other thing is when women had come in and then they'd go out, we'd say people would be worried and I'd say, no, we're not going to worry about.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:12:37] We're not caretakers. We're not taking care of people like that. We don't have to bring that. Get what the sheep. We don't have to do that because that's good for a human. If they feel like they need to leave, they need to leave. We need to allow that to happen and we need to get out of that caretaking position. So when they're there, we love them. If they go, we can't look at that as a failure. We look at them as them going on or doing something that they need to do in their life. Okay. Maybe it doesn't work.

John Dehlin [00:13:05] So there's a Facebook group where I'm sure women are sharing experiences, stories, insights every day. I'm sure there's a ton of posts and comments. There's two, there's two annual retreats. What else makes it hard?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:13:19] We have takas. Takas are something. We just introduced the first of the year and we have a book club we just introduced. What's a taca is themes of a certain age.

John Dehlin [00:13:28] Themes.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:13:29] And so what happens is like right now there's one in the works where we've got several women that are now not able to go to the temple and have children, getting married. And it's very devastating for them. So what we do is when you say, okay, I'm having a talk, we're going to talk about sitting outside the temple and it's my home this time I've got 10 slots and then people will sign up for the slots to go. And they're personal conversations where they can really talk. Because when WAKA gets together, whenever we put the invitation for WAKA out there, we get 60, 70, 80 people coming.

John Dehlin [00:14:06] What is WCA? What is that?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:14:07] WKA?

John Dehlin [00:14:08] No, no, no. You haven't described yet what you're just talking about.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:14:11] Okay. Oh, the taka.

John Dehlin [00:14:13] No wka. It's a get together. It's just like a party. What is it?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:14:16] It is. It's a community support, but it's to help us go forward.

John Dehlin [00:14:22] You're saying there's events?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:14:23] Yes, there's events.

John Dehlin [00:14:24] The standard walk events besides retreats or what? Or what?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:14:29] Standard walk events. Well, one thing, it's all self propelled. Like I do events. Yes, but everybody can do an event. Anybody can do an event. And everybody's encouraged to do an event. And everybody.

John Dehlin [00:14:40] These events are like, what? Give us some examples of what you do.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:14:43] Oh my gosh. We've gone to the movies, we do shows. We do. I mean, that's the same thing. We do dinner, we do talks. We have. We did a really fun thing where we did a photography shoot and all the women wore black. And we went up to the photo collective and actually, I mean, did a real photo shoot with the group and individual pictures. And most of these women had never had their shoulders showing, let alone posing for a picture. Like for the photographer. It was a professional photographer. It was a riot. It was just so much. We had music playing. It was like.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:15:18] It made you feel, I don't know, it's just. So we're doing events. The object of being in WAKA is you have to be done. We do talk about church, they talk about their experiences. There is a lot of that. But the idea is to move forward because that's what makes will make us healthier and create community and make friendships. And at one point we said, should we shut this? You know, cap it at a certain thing that we haven't? Because we. What's happened is as these new people come in, it's new blood and new people meet friends. And I watch friendships come out of this all the time.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:15:51] There are so many groups of women that have friends that they'll have the rest of their life. And when I see things like that, I don't know, it just blows me away because to me that's the whole purpose. I saw sometime somebody on Mormon spectrum said, hey, I've got this problem.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:16:12] Some of our people, they're going to coffee alone and they're doing all these things together and blah, blah, blah. And I don't know how to keep them being with the group and everything. And I wanted to write him and say, you're doing what you need to do. That's the idea, is to create friendships, right? And to have friendships again. And you're be exposed to people that you, you can have friends again so you can go out in this life with that. So there's that. I'm just trying to think.

John Dehlin [00:16:41] It's dinners, it's movies, it's everything. Christmas parties. We do readings, White elephant gifts, we

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:16:47] hike, we have a hiking group, we have speakers that come all the time. We're starting a book club. But they're all. Everybody wants to do it together, so we're doing it in three groups, but we're all reading the same book.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:16:58] We have. Oh my gosh. The in person experiences are the magic because then you, you build memories with someone and experiences with someone. You see the same person all the time. We have, every Sunday on, on the wall, we have good news and everybody tells their good news for the week. So that's how you get to know them better and know their kids and know their husbands. So it's like it's, it's a, it's the part that is missing when you know, when you go to some things like other churches or Oasis or any of those places, you can get a different crowd every time, right?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:17:34] And sometimes people, if they want to build community, they want to be around people that know their kids names, know who they are and still and come all the time. And that day may come with some of those places, but I think that's what wacca is. WACA feels like home.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:17:52] And as everybody gets to know everybody, it's. And there's no rules. Like, one time somebody said the F word on the wall. And then somebody said, oh, you're not supposed to say those things on walls. Am I going to get in trouble? And I sat and I thought about it, and I said, I don't care.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:18:09] They can say what they want. I'm not interested in rules anymore. When people get sick in WCA or people need help, we made a decision that if people feel like helping and serving and taking in a dinner or doing something like that, we leave it all up to them. We're not in that business of making those assignments because we don't want to take that power away from them again, like it was taken from us, you know, in a. In a ward setting. And you just wait until somebody asked you. This way people go and they volunteer and they do things, and we never know about what.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:18:45] Who's doing what. Do you know what I mean? So a lot of the pressure, I think, has gone, you know, that comes with all of that. And it's born out of their goodness and who they are. And their kids know they're doing those things, and they get to do those things, and they do do those things. So really, the magic really is getting together and sharing and getting together all the time.

John Dehlin [00:19:05] Talk about Coca really quick.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:19:07] Okay? So the men were getting upset because the women were having all the fun, and we were doing all these fun things. So I said, okay, I'll make a Coca Cola Facebook page, and you guys can start doing things.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:19:21] Well, we did. And I hate to say this, I don't mean to stereotype men, but they were sort of helpless when it comes to creating events and parties and things that they needed to do so they could start bonding with each other, right? And then it was bothering me because I'd have to go in their space and create an activity, and they'd all go and everything. But it was kind of like. It just kind of felt weird, you know? And so I changed it from cocas.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:19:46] I mean, from mochas, which was men of a certain age, to cocas, which is couples of a certain age. And it works. And so what happens is people can be in coca with their husbands and their wives, and the men still have experiences by themselves, and they'll do it now because they're in there, and I can create something if I need to or whatever, but I feel like I'm in everybody's space instead of just, you know, just Their space.

John Dehlin [00:20:14] So what has. If you were just. We're going to talk about Waka next week, but if. If you were to summarize your experience with Waka as to what it's meant to you and what it's meant to the women, how would you summarize

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:20:31] that is a very tender subject for me because I am in awe of these women because I know their sacrifices, I know what they've gone through. I know about their bravery and their courage at a time when they could have just floated off and died and everything would have maintained. The status quo would have been maintained and.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:21:01] But there are women who couldn't. Felt like their life was important enough that they had to live it as authentically and as true as they could. And every day I get on the computer, there's somebody that's messaged me and tells me their story, and I'll never, ever, ever get over that.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:21:28] I'll never take that for granted. I'll never get over. Do you know what I mean? What a privilege this is for me to hear their stories and hear their courage and see what they go through and see them take those first steps to walk into a Wacca event and wonder if it's okay and wonder if they'll find friends and wonder how they got there and wonder all of that stuff and. And to see them, see them do those things, it's like.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:22:04] I don't know. I'll just never. I'll never get over it. There's some days that I just sit and think, how. How did I. How did I get in this position? How? I don't know. I just feel so lucky and so.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:22:17] And there's. I think of all of them and they're gifted and. I don't know, I think. And they try and they. I know that when a new person walks in the room, they will be surrounded within minutes and talked to and a seat found for them. I just. That's the thing, you know, you miss in the ward when you're around Mormons is, you know, how Mormons are going to act. If you're in trouble, things are going to happen, you know, and this thing's going to happen. That's how it is. The Waka women, it's like, I know, I know, I know.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:22:54] I don't know. I don't know. And we've got some women, though, that have left the church 10 years, 20 years ago and just never thought they'd ever make friends again. And they've found Waka and, I don't know, we Go through growing pains. And we always have to learn, well, how do we handle this? And this is a new thing. How do we handle this stuff? And so far, everybody's just stayed. But I don't look at anything as the negative because I think it's all just part of the organicness of it, you know, So I don't have the rules on it that a certain thing has to happen or certain expectation or something like that, you know? So, yeah, I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:23:37] Is Waka just for people on the Wasatch front?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:23:39] No, WCA Wasatches. We call her the Mothership. She's the mother ship.

John Dehlin [00:23:45] Wacca Wasatch.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:23:46] Wacca Wasatch. And there's a lot of people that are in other areas that want to be in Wauke just because that. That really is where everything's cooking right now. As other groups are getting bigger, they'll start cooking where they are. But this is. But I always.

John Dehlin [00:24:01] How many men allowed to be in the fishing group? Not one man.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:24:04] It's a female space. Oh, no, you wouldn't want to be. Although you might find it exciting now. No, but it's like sometimes I have to tell people from other places when they want to come into Waka just to be on the online part.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:24:20] I say, I really hate to do that because you're going to feel really bad because we have way too much fun and we really, genuinely do. There's just all kinds of fun things that we do to care about each other and stuff that way. But San Diego's growing like crazy.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:24:39] Sacramento is kind of holding in the Bay Area, and we're going to open one in Boston. We've got one in Seattle, and Phoenix is just kind of holding. What's happened is when the hackings came on and at that point, Lisa asked me if she could talk about waca, because you'd asked me about WACA before lots of times, right. And stuff. And I. I wasn't ready because I knew once Waka was mentioned with you that it would go crazy, Right. And I had to be ready, get ready. I had to get places for these women, you know? And so when Lisa called me, she says, can I say this thing?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:25:21] And I said, yes. I said, I've got everything in place. I'm ready. I'm ready for whatever happens. I've got them all set up, all the pages set up, ready to go. And she says, okay. And, oh, my gosh, were you ready? Oh, my God, no. I had places to put them, but I didn't have time I swear. Walk his part time job right now. But back then it was a full time job. I mean hours and hours and hours and hours. And it was like. And then, and then when the people from that Mormon story kind of quit coming in. You know, I still get the ones from you and, and Mormon stories and whenever you go visit somewhere, I get the women in that area because I'm a missionary. Yes, you are.

John Dehlin [00:26:04] I'm a Walker missionary.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:26:05] I love it. I love it.

John Dehlin [00:26:06] I can't even attend.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:26:07] I know. Well, you get to go to the Cocas. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:26:10] Occasionally.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:26:11] But it's so, it's. And so you know, when we have this coming out next week, we had to be ready for that too. It's going to be interesting to see, to see what happens and.

John Dehlin [00:26:27] But see, you know, somebody wants to join Walker. What do they do?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:26:30] They have to.

John Dehlin [00:26:30] How do they find it?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:26:31] Facebook me.

John Dehlin [00:26:33] What if it's San Diego or Phoenix still?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:26:35] They still have to Facebook.

John Dehlin [00:26:37] It all goes through Mama Kim.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:26:38] All goes through Mama Kim.

John Dehlin [00:26:39] Oh my goodness. You better get some support.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:26:41] Well, no, I have my team and right now and last month we, I divided everybody up so they all take an area and. But in between being sick and moving my house and having people stay in crisis in my little family, that's not anything but anyway, there's lots of stuff that's been going on but by next week they will all have their specific assignments for their different areas and I won't be doing that. That's the other thing. It's when it's your baby and you, you, you just, you know, I have this thing where I, I don't know, you just want to make sure everything comes along.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:27:21] But I've had to come to grips with the fact that it's just gonna grow, it's gonna be bigger and I have to let go. I have to keep letting go and keep giving more and more. You know, it was a big deal to get my team and doing all of that. So I'm getting there. But that will all be in place next.

John Dehlin [00:27:38] So they go to Mormon Spectrum. Look up waca.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:27:41] Yeah, it's on Mormon Spectrum. And then

John Dehlin [00:27:46] it's as a Salt Lake pin.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:27:47] Right, right. And I'm in the process of putting all the other people.

John Dehlin [00:27:50] You have a website.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:27:51] We do, don't you?

John Dehlin [00:27:53] So that you don't have to go to.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:27:54] Well, we just got a logo Random

John Dehlin [00:27:55] Draper pin in Mormon Spectrum to be able to find what you're doing.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:27:58] That's a very good idea. We were going to start. This is what our goals for this year when we had our board meeting is, we're doing. We had to get our logo and all of that stuff. So we have that. We've got that. We are going to start our book club. We're having our first feminist girls camp in July. Four days. We're having. What else were we doing?

John Dehlin [00:28:21] Podcast.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:28:22] Podcast. We're going to start a podcast and talk about. It's not going to be about the church. It's going to be about women of a certain age and what we go through. And of course, things are going to come up. I'm a grandmother and I've left my church and how do I. How do I deal with my grandkids? Things like that will come up, but it won't be a religious based, you know, argument from there. We've. And I don't like church bashing. I don't like doing any of that. I feel like.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:28:49] Who was it? My son said something really, really good. He was talking about his company and he was involved in litigation with his company and he said, I'd rather beat them out in the world than go to court.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:29:13] And I kind of feel that about Waka. I feel like I'd rather be successful and be happy and go forward and do that than stay here and fight this or talk about this. Do you know what I mean? It's like, like that. That's what I feel. And I feel like my job is to keep pushing, pushing them. I had one woman write, she didn't know what the word feminist was when she read the affirmations to join and she said she talked to her husband and they looked. She looked up the word and she said, I love it.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:29:48] I love that. I want to do that. I want to learn about that. This is an older woman. And I just go, yes, yeah, here we go.

John Dehlin [00:29:56] So, yeah, so, I mean, more isn't always better. So maybe a website whenever. But yeah, right now, if they want to find you, they go to mormonspectrum.org map they zoom into sort of the Draper area on the map and then they'll find a pin that says Waka. And then the other in a link to your Facebook account where they have to message you.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:30:21] Well, there's another, there's another. We're getting away from the email thing. There's another thing is, is I have women now in all the places, in fact, I just finished that yesterday, where their name and address and everything is going to be on Mormon spectrum. Not mine. Wherever they are, they will be that representative in that area.

John Dehlin [00:30:39] There'll be a pin in San Diego

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:30:41] for San Diego, and there'll be a local person to call, a local person to talk to. And if they want to, if they want to join, then they, they just. Then you message Kim Turner. I put them through the vetting or whoever is over, like San Diego, they'll put them through the vetting. It won't always be me. I'm spreading that baby out. So. So they'll always. There's going to be a team member over everything, you know, and go that way and just see what it goes. But you know what? We could do this for another year or two, and then Waka could just fade away. And it was just a need that came and went. You know what I mean? I'm really open to whatever happens. And then. And then who knows? I'm turning 65 this year. Maybe I'll just retire and give somebody the job for Waka. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:30] All right.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:31:30] I'd like to write. I'd like to do some fun things. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:33] So we'll dig more next week. What Waka. I mean, I think the focus is going to be on what Waka is meant to people.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:31:41] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:31:42] And. And so that's going to be really exciting. It's time to sort of start wrapping up your story tonight, if that's all right. If somebody were to say that you left the church because you wanted to sin or never believed in the first place or got offended, you address this a bit. But what would you say to them?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:32:07] You're full of baloney. No.

John Dehlin [00:32:10] No, you left because.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:32:13] No, I left because I learned things that were incongruent, that I could no longer. Stomach, for lack of a better word. No, I was living the way I had been raised, to find truth and just know. And I wanted it to be anything but. But that. But. And. But I'm fine with that. I'm fine. And I'm fine to call myself an apostate. I'm fine to call myself as a post Mormon. I hate ex Mormons. Don't ever say that one. But you know what I mean? I'm not ashamed of that. I'm not.

John Dehlin [00:32:51] If someone were to ask you if you've traded up, if you've improved your life, what would you say?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:32:57] That one's a hard one.

John Dehlin [00:32:58] Because your life better.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:32:59] There were lots of wonderful things in my Mormon life that I loved, but there are so many wonderful things now that are. That are just. There's this authenticity, this self empowerment, this freedom of expression, this. I don't know, all those Things I traded up for, I got. I love. I could never have created Waka as a member of the church.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:33:32] I couldn't have done that. That wouldn't have been my job. Right. And you know something else that's really interesting? One of the things I mourned the most in the beginning was the loss of certainty. I remember driving down the road thinking I don't know anything.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:33:49] Certainty. I had to grieve. Like a divorce, the loss of certainty. Well, now it's been three years and I think it was about, I don't know, five months ago or something. It dawned on me as I thought about things and I thought, wait a minute. That was the most wonderful gift you have been given, is to be rid of certainty. Because certainty took away my ability to think for myself, to demand answers or to look for answers, or to see things a different way, or to try new things or to experiment. Because you know what?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:34:32] I don't have to worry about the environment because I'm certain God will take care of that. I don't have to worry about doing anything with the water or things like that because God will never let us die. I'm certain of that and I'm certain of this and this. And so it never. It took away my advocacy, it took away my desire deseos, I took away my.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:34:57] Those kinds. Do you see what I mean? That's a two edged sword. Certainty is a two edged sword. And now I'm uncertain and I think so I better darn well work to make things better and good. And I now have impetus. I have. You know what I mean?

John Dehlin [00:35:18] Yeah, it takes a little.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:35:19] I'm like Joanna.

John Dehlin [00:35:21] What?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:35:22] I'm like Joanna. I count. Yeah, I'm not, you know, I'm not. Pennies to the nickel. See, that's why I never did an ordained thing. You know why? Because I don't believe with church, with church theology. I don't know how they.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:35:39] We can never. Women can never hold the priesthood. In the theology of Mormonism, men will have many wives. To make the highest kingdom in the celestial kingdom, you have to be a polygamist. Right? So we're pennies to the nickel. And if you gave women the priesthood, guess what we'd be?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:35:58] We'd be equal. You couldn't have. It'd have to be one for one. Do you know what I mean? We have to stay less than because that's how it's set up. So to me, it's never been whether or not women should have the priesthood or gender or the issue or the culture. I want to say know your religion. How do you get around that? Tell me how to get around that.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:36:26] They used to tell us it was because we will understand it better because we have a finite mind. But as we go on and have an infinite mind that we will understand that and we'll be fine. Women will be just fine. It was usually a man telling the woman that.

Tips for Navigating a Faith Transition

John Dehlin [00:36:44] What tips do you have for people going through a transition? Any high level tips?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:36:47] Yeah. Take really good care of yourself and those you love and allow time and cry. Be angry. Go through all the stages and go through them again. Don't let anybody give you timetable or tell you how you should be feeling or you should be through it now or you should go back or you need time. And I would recommend that people do that in private.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:37:19] But that's just me, you know, some people need counsel from bishops I guess and things like that. But I don't know that they can say anything to you that wouldn't be triggering or wouldn't be hard if you. You're trying to analyze everything without other voices.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:37:35] But I would say be sensitive to those that are not feeling the way that you are. And just keep being yourself. I guess hope springs eternal that if people keep seeing you be the person that they loved before they knew this thing, that maybe they'll still go after, they'll still love you after.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:38:05] But sometimes that works and sometimes it doesn't. But you just need to keep being who you are. Don't change because you're, you know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't really have any great advice with that. It'd just be no hurry. But I think they have to do it till they're done. Till they really feel like they can walk away and be done or. Or that they can stay and make peace with it or they can stay and enjoy it. Whatever it is, you got to keep doing it till you're really truly done if you value your life.

John Dehlin [00:38:39] You mentioned regrets of like maybe how you made your son in law feel. Any other regrets?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:38:56] I don't know. I'm sure there's some. But this brain of mine has this ability to just kind of forget bad stuff and let it go.

John Dehlin [00:39:09] Are the best parts of your life now?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:39:11] Best parts of my life now. I feel like I have access to the whole world 24 7. I don't have periods of time where. Where I see my husband and I don't see my husband or I don't see the. I just feel like I have I have the world and that. Hi, sweetheart. My husband just came in the door. Anyway, I feel like. I feel like the happiest parts. Is that what you just said?

John Dehlin [00:39:47] The best parts?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:39:48] Best parts. The best parts are, you know, some people will say, oh, I love coffee, I love being able to drink and stuff. Eh, the best parts for me are socializing with people and having friendships now that I think are going to go with me till I die. I think the best parts are just every day, Every day there is. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:40:20] I don't know every day what.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:40:26] I'm just trying to think. I don't live with fear. I don't have any fear. You know, you get normal worries about life and things like that. You know, that stuff doesn't go away. But I don't have a fear that I'm not doing it right or that I'm not good enough or that I didn't do it right or that I need to do more. Oh my gosh, just getting that out of my head. I mean, Mormons already do way too much. But you never get to rest and say. You always have to say, I need to do more or I need to. You know, a Mormon women has these very sensitive antennas that know when a person has a need even before they know they have a needle to give that responsibility up.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:41:07] And that enmeshment and that caretaking, it's runaway caretaking and it's harmful and it doesn't mean that you don't serve your mankind. Doesn't mean any of those things. But we sometimes do that to an extreme. So I feel satisfaction in what I do and I feel like I'm okay and I feel like I'm not trying to go for some brass ring and I'm not trying to earn something after this life. So it's pretty. It's pretty. Yeah. And it gets better with time, don't you think?

John Dehlin [00:41:38] Oh my gosh.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:41:39] It just gets better.

John Dehlin [00:41:40] It gets amazing.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:41:41] I know. It just keeps getting better.

John Dehlin [00:41:45] Everything is the opposite of what they said.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:41:47] Yeah, it is.

John Dehlin [00:41:48] Brighter, happier, funner, more honest, more moral, more connected, healthier relationships.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:41:55] Oh, and the things that we talk

John Dehlin [00:41:56] about, Marriage, healthier kids.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:41:59] Yeah. Walk is not your mama's relief society. I mean, we talk very frankly about everything. And I'm going, isn't this always the group we always wanted where you could be real and talk about things and. Yeah. Oh my gosh, yeah. That's really cool. That's really, really cool. And there's. I'm not saying that Mormons are Not authentic. But I think we're very protective because we have to be perceived a certain way, and it's important that we're perceived as being faithful and valiant and all these things. And so we oftentimes have to have to live lives behind that. And I really feel bad about that rather than think anything bad. I know.

Final Reflections and Closing Message

John Dehlin [00:42:40] All right, well, you know how he closed Mormon stories, right? Okay, you don't remember.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:42:46] Yes, yes. You want me to bear my testimony,

John Dehlin [00:42:53] Whatever it is, doesn't have to be religious.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:42:55] I know.

John Dehlin [00:42:56] If you were to conclude with your wisdom, you've been speaking it all along, right?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:43:02] Oh, gosh.

John Dehlin [00:43:04] This is your eulogy. Your self eulogy.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:43:06] My self eulogy. You know, that's really funny because I think I touched on this earlier. I had to give up the obituary. I knew I would never have that one where I was honored and my faith never wavered and I was true to my commitments all of my life, and I blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I thought, what are my kids going to write for my obituary?

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:43:31] And we laughed about that one night when I actually told them that, you know, what are you guys going to write? And then I decided I'm just going to write it because they'll write something really funny. You have to start throwing that stuff away that used to be important.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:43:46] Isn't that weird that you would live a life hoping your obituary look good? Who does that? Okay, back down to what you're saying. Okay. Okay. These are the things I know. If there is a power in the universe that exceeds all power, it's the power of love.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:44:21] And love isn't freely given. And I don't know. I don't want to put qualifications on love, but one thing I have found that through some of the most difficult times in my life, when I thought that love would diminish or that I would feel less of that, it's when it has grown fuller and been fuller and been more effective in my life.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:44:53] And I've always liked. One of the parts I loved about Mormonism is that we're not to judge one another. And I always thought that was the neatest thing because it left me out the hook that meant somebody else was going to do that. So guess what I got to do.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:45:09] I got to be the one that loved people and just accepted them and didn't have to worry about all that other stuff because somebody else is going to do that, you know? And so to come to this point of my life and not know what is out there and not know what is after this life or not know any of those things. I.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:45:33] I am pleasantly surprised at how peaceful I am with that, how okay I am with that. And I am very, very aware of a legacy that I want to leave my children and my grandchildren. And I hope that when they think of me, that they were not the things that I valued, the things that I thought were important, that they will know of my principles, my character, my integrity, and my ability to do whatever it took to maintain that.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:46:26] I have been honored by. By so many people that I have watched do difficult things, and I've been honored to be with people that have changed the world for good. I'm looking at one right now, and there are so, so many wonderful people that I. You know, like I told you I was going to show you this. Let me just show you. Okay, this is it.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:46:57] This came from the Encircle house down in Provo, which is a marvelous, wonderful idea founded on the belief that, as Stephanie Larsen said, she looked at different families with gay children who were successful. And she said the reason they were successful is because they had family around them. They were encircled by love.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:47:25] And that's the whole premise behind Encircle. And so I think in life, that's one thing I want to bear my testimony about. There are no sides. There's only love. And when we put down our walls and we open up our arms and we see humanity and we see the things that people are going through and stuff, and we're just there to witness their journey, I don't know. There's something really wonderful about that. And you don't even have to do anything. You can just sit there, sit in their space and be with them.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:48:10] I have these words in my head, don't give a thankimony and don't give a travelogue. I'm privileged to walk the earth with the man that I walk the earth with. In the many, many, many things that we have gone through, we've gone through some really interesting times and hard times, but we've been able to always find each other and always end up going to bed at night holding hands.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:48:42] And that, to me, is really amazing, really amazing. And I don't take that for granted. I have children that I love as people. They are good people. And I think all the time, you know, they're funny and they're smart and they're all these other things, but they are good.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:49:06] And to me, that is. It made me feel like I had to be. I wanted to be good for them, too. And my grandchildren, I doubt they'll ever take the time to watch this long of a thing. But they have.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:49:36] Wonderful examples around them. And I hope that they will always view the world as a wonderful place, as a healthy place, that they'll use good judgment for those places that aren't healthy and aren't wonderful, you know, But I don't know. So there's that.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:49:51] I am grateful for my Mormon life, for the things that. The hours and hours and hours that teachers spent loving me as a kid, teaching me lessons. And I remember one teacher, when he called my name, I didn't answer. And then he asked me later, well, what is your name? And I said I was a visitor. And he said, what's your name? And I said, my name's Edna.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:50:22] And he said, okay. And he. He proceeded to call me Edna for about six months while everybody giggled in Sunday school class. Right to this day, when I see him, he still calls me Edna. And I know I can't. You can't. You know, so many people want to do this thing. What's that say? Well, if you left the church, that means you hate the church, don't like anything about it, don't this and this. You know, that's not true.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:50:49] I'm really grateful for all of those things. And some of the things that I fight for now, that I even talk about within the church are just because I know that there are. There are children and people that I love in the church that if they just made some of these changes, it would be helpful for them because I care about them. You know, when people say, why don't you leave it alone? I think that's the motivation behind. Most people, they just want to make it better or something, but. And then you get to the point where you don't have to do that anymore. You.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:51:16] You leave it all behind, don't you? And you just go forward and then live your life. So anyway, I'm just trying to think. I know I'm going to lay in bed tonight and I'm going to go, oh, my gosh, you just rambled on and on and on. And you didn't say anything significant. And why didn't you bring this up and why didn't you say that? So I know that's what's going to happen. I'm going to lay there and say, I wish I would have said that. Why did I say this? And then, I don't know. I don't know. I just.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:51:46] I just. I would want my Mormon friends and people to know that we're still the same. People that you loved and honored before, and we still love you and honor you and just let that part go and just find each other, you know, with polarization. That's the problem. Nothing happens on either side because love grows in the middle.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:52:16] And I'm seeing a little bit of that. I think people are dropping their preconceived notions a little bit. Do you see that, John, at all? And loving each other better, for sure. I don't know. So I wish. I don't wish anything. Thank you, Waka. And the Cocas, for. The meaning you've given my life,

John Dehlin [00:53:01] this

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:53:01] service, the ability to serve that you've given my life, but just the example. And anyway, I can't talk very much more about them, so I'll just sit in Baltimore. I'm done.

John Dehlin [00:53:17] All right, well, I'm gonna come back around and I'll just.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:53:24] You didn't give me a hanky. You're supposed to. People, I'm sorry.

John Dehlin [00:53:27] Here, use my.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:53:28] Oh, no. Beautiful sweater.

John Dehlin [00:53:31] Thank you. Thank you for joining us on Mormon Stories. It's been epic. It's been beautiful. I wish Terry could have joined us. Maybe we'll have him do his own someday. But we love you. We're grateful for you. Thousands of us call you mom or Grandma.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:53:45] I love. No, Mom. I don't want to be Grandma.

John Dehlin [00:53:47] My grandma. And thank you and those of you who enjoyed, please, please comment. Please go up to MormonStories.org and let Kim know how much you appreciated this. If you have questions, maybe she'll respond to a question or two. If it's respectful and kind, check out WACA if you're at least 40 years or above. And maybe if you're between 30 and 40, there's a place for you.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:54:11] Yeah, well, we've got so many 30 year olds that want to do it. So we have a group called the Unders.

John Dehlin [00:54:16] The Unders.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:54:16] And that's women of a certain age and under.

John Dehlin [00:54:19] All right, so if you're 30s or above, there's a place for you to walk out, check it out, build and grow the community in healthy ways because we need Waka to thrive for a long time. And we'll be joining us next week to have one final interview with the women of Waka and to hear stories about what Waka as much of them. But until then, we love you, Kim.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:54:43] Bye bye. Love you. Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:54:45] Love everybody. Thanks for your support. Thanks for everyone who supports Mormon Stories and makes it possible. We couldn't do this without you. So thanks to everyone who contributes and makes it possible. All right, Kim. Take care.

Kim Sandberg Turner [00:54:57] Okay. Bye. Bye.

John Dehlin [00:54:58] All right. Because I have been given my eye to my skin.

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