Introduction to Ordain Women

Guest [00:00:00] 1, 2, 3.

John Dehlin [00:00:07] Mormon Stories Podcast is a production of the Open Stories Foundation. All donations to Mormon Stories are fully tax deductible and go directly towards keeping the podcast alive and towards building a community of support for Mormons like you. To support the podcast or to join the community, please become a monthly subscriber today@mormonstories.org hello and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John delind, and I'm very excited to have with me today Kate Kelly. Some of you who have been longtime listeners will remember Kate, potentially from an episode we had several years back on a project called, what was it called, Kate? Mormon Mayday, Mormon May Day, which. What was it about? Social justice and equality, that type of thing.

Kate Kelly [00:00:56] Yep. And encouraging a variety of voices within the Mormon community.

John Dehlin [00:01:00] Right. And we're having Kate on today because she is one of the leaders of a new initiative called Ordain Women. You can learn more about it@ordainwomen.org the website says Mormon women seeking equality and ordination to the priesthood. It's actually not just women, but men as well, joining women in seeking priesthood equality and several this weekend at General Conference. You know, it's early April. We're about to have General Conference. There's going to be sort of a kickoff event in Salt Lake City. So we're here to talk to Kate about what she's doing and what she and her colleagues are doing and why. And just to understand better why the call for ordaining women within the LDS Church. Just a little bit of background on Kate. She was raised lds. She served a mission in Barcelona, Spain. She graduated from byu, married in the Salt Lake Temple. She's currently active in her ward. She's the Relief Society chorister. And she is an international human rights law attorney, which means that I'm going to have to be on my toes. Hey, welcome to Mormon Stories.

Kate Kelly [00:02:24] Thanks. Thanks so much for having me. I'm really excited to talk to you.

Kate Kelly's Mormon Upbringing and Early Life

John Dehlin [00:02:28] So let's just touch. I want to try and keep this interview to an hour, but let's begin. Was there anything about your childhood, adolescence, and this might be a really big question, but anything that sort of made you interested in activism or particularly sensitive to women's issues in the church other than being a woman and a thoughtful woman in the church?

Kate Kelly [00:02:55] Yeah, I grew up as a Mormon woman. I grew up as a Mormon child who happened to be female. And both of my parents are converts to the church. And in my household, things were operated on a very egalitarian basis. My dad did his fair share of the parenting. He called himself the laundry king. I remember that was one of his big chores that he took care of, was doing all the laundry. My mother worked as an attorney my entire growing up. And the parody that I saw in their relationship was pitted against what I was taught about strict gender roles within the church. So I, I wanted a marriage like I saw my parents have. But the things that I was taught in young women's were sort of at odds with, with, with that model that I was given. And so that increasingly became more and more irksome as I grew up. And I think. But I think that foundation and that model that my parents gave me of being truly equally yoked was something that stuck with me and helped me decide that I wanted to be involved in this way.

John Dehlin [00:04:11] So was there ever a moment of culture shock for you when you, you found out that the rest of the church wasn't necessarily as egalitarian as your parents?

Kate Kelly [00:04:20] I think there were a series of micro culture shocks all growing up. I grew up in Oregon and I didn't have very many Mormon friends. And so I saw different models of different, different ways people lived. But I went to Brigham Young University. Go Coug. So when I came to college for the first time, instead of swimming upstream and being one of the only Mormons, I was surrounded with this huge mass of very enthusiastic Mormon kids. And it was really exciting for me, but at the same time, I was at odds with different things that I was seeing. And I took a class at BYU called Teachings of the Living Prophets. And it was actually taught by Lloyd K. Newell, the voice from music and the spoken word. And in that class we were given an assignment. And the assignment was to study one issue that was important to you and what the prophets had to say on it. And I decided to study the issue of women working outside the home. And that was a very. I remember that as a crystallizing, very specific moment for me in life. I can remember exactly where I was sitting. I was sitting on my junky, old, raggedy couch in my apartment in Provo, and I just started weeping. I was sobbing because I felt like the things that I wanted in life were incompatible with what I was reading and all these different talks and all these different general conference enzymes. And the role that was prescribed for me was very different from, from the one I wanted in life. And so that was the one moment that I can remember that stuck out to me as when those two things just really, really collided.

John Dehlin [00:06:17] And so, you know, it's been A few years since you graduated from byu, has it been difficult to remain active in the church, feeling some of this angst or pain or discomfort?

Kate Kelly [00:06:32] Well, the one thing that I think has helped me remain active in the church is my faith in the Gospel, and that has never wavered. And also, my husband is a sort of miraculous feminist and came out of BYU sort of in the same way that I did, with a very strong belief that women and men are completely equal. And that has really helped me. He's been very supportive. And also, like I said, my family is very egalitarian and supportive in that way. So I think it's been difficult for me to remain silent. And I think that's part of the reason why I decided, you know, the straw that broke the camel's back was I wanted to be able to be my authentic self and be part of Mormonism. And part of being my authentic self is actually for true equality in the church. And actually, since we launched the website about two weeks ago, those two Sundays have been the most joyous experiences that I've had in a long time going to church because I have felt free, and I've felt that I'm telling my truth and I'm being authentic. And I have never been more excited to go to church. And it's been a really, really exciting rebirth for me.

John Dehlin [00:07:56] I totally relate to that. The more honest I've been with my leaders, the more tenable church has become for me as well. So let's jump to kind of your views on the church and priesthood and history and stuff. And let's begin. How do you see women as being treated in the church right now? And I'm sort of asking this on behalf of my sisters and mother. Like, if I were to ask them, do you want the priesthood? They would say, no, we're very happy. We love the church. We have a testimony of it. We believe that our leaders are inspired. We love our roles. We love being mothers. They would just say, we're completely happy. We think that it's appropriate for women and men to have different roles in the church. And people who say that women are mistreated or treated as lesser than don't understand the LDS Church in Mormonism. How would you respond to that?

Kate Kelly [00:08:54] Well, I think that's a general perception that a lot of people have. And I think it's important to. I think this brings up the point to me that's important to keep in mind that this change, as opposed to, for example, ordination in the Catholic Church or ordination in various other denominations, this Change would literally affect directly the lives of 7 million women and girls. And this would affect over 50% of the population. And so this isn't just a small handful of people that this would happen to. This is literally going to change the lives of every single person in the church. And so I think that that's, I think that's a big change for people to imagination and I think that's a huge part of our work at Ordain Women is to opening up people's imaginations to what this could be like and how women be integrated in different ways. And I also think that any institution that underutilizes over 50% of its population is suffering is missing out. And I think this is our way to fully invest and engage in the church and say that we want to contribute, we want to be invested. Not every woman is going to be called to a higher calling in the church because not every man is. Every ward is made up of lay clergy and a rotating basis. And every person can be given that opportunity to take on the burden. Currently in the church, women are given a lot of responsibilities and tasks and women do a huge amount of work running their local congregations and facilitating all of the work that goes on in the church, particularly compassionate service. But those roles and duties are delegated roles and women don't have any of the, you know, the ritual clerical decision making power on all the different levels. So women currently have a vast amount of responsibility. And some of the feedback I've gotten from some women is, you know, I don't want any further responsibility, I don't want to be a bishop, I just simply can't handle it. I can't put in all of those volunteer hours in addition to what I'm already doing. But to me that goes to, that serves to show how engaged and invested women currently already are in the structure of the Church. We do a lot of the work. And so I think to me this is just a reimagining of what, that, you know, what our contribution can be and how we can be engaged.

John Dehlin [00:11:27] So for you, does this come out of a place of feeling like women are treated mistreated or treated as lesser

Kate Kelly [00:11:34] than I think women, the voices of women are marginalized. Whether it's in your local congregation, whether it's in decision making, of who to focus on in the ward, of what lessons to give of, you know, all the decision making power rests with men who hold the priesthood. The decision making structure of the church is one that's ordered on the priesthood. And so I don't necessarily think that individual men treat individual women badly or poorly or abuse them, although that exists in every community. I think that women are valued for their roles as wives and mothers and all of the things that are wonderful about our roles as women, but our input is not equally valued.

John Dehlin [00:12:25] Okay. And you're clearly not given the same responsibilities and opportunities that men are.

Kate Kelly [00:12:30] No, no. And I think nowhere is that more clear than when I was on my mission. For example, I served a mission in Barcelona, Spain and the sister missionaries did a huge amount of proselytizing work. And we found a lot of the people who are, who were going to be baptized, but we couldn't interview those people, we couldn't baptize those people. We couldn't be the branches of the different missions and you know, where there were fewer members. A lot of the, a large percentage of the members in these small branches were women. And so the men in the congregations were extremely taxed. There would be, you know, one male Melchizedek priesthood holder in an entire congregation who held all the responsibility of all of that decision making power and you know, financial responsibility and all of the different clerical financial decision making responsibilities rested on the shoulders of one adult man when there were many women who were very capable of filling in those roles. So I think in, again, that goes to show that in, especially in certain places in the world, women's power and women's contribution is just really being underutilized.

John Dehlin [00:13:47] Got it. So let's define what priesthood means to you. Does it mean multiple things? Just be clear about what priesthood means to you, what you mean by ordination and kind of what you're calling for.

What the Priesthood Means and Why Women Should Have It

Kate Kelly [00:14:04] Well, to me, priesthood is the power by which the church is organized and also the power of God, the power of God that we can receive to act in his name. I believe that the priesthood is a real power and I believe that through that power that we can work miracles. I am a true believer, I am a faithful Mormon, and to me the priesthood power is real. So it's both the opportunity, if women were given the priesthood and were ordained, would to be able to act in the name of God to serve others as male priesthood holders use their priesthood to serve and bless the lives of others and also to be able to participate. So it's not only the social consequences that I would like to see change, but also I think that we need this power, especially as missionaries, especially as women who have families, especially as women who serve in the church. We need this priesthood power to be able to serve and bless the lives of others.

John Dehlin [00:15:15] Okay. Why is there any history here or scriptural basis for what you're calling for?

Kate Kelly [00:15:26] Well, there's multiple examples in the scriptures of female prophetesses, for example, and one example that we use on the website is from the original Relief Society minutes launched ordain women on March 17th. And the reason that we launched on March 17th is because that was the 171st anniversary of the original formation of the Relief Society. Joseph Smith formed the Relief Society. And in the minutes, you can read the Nauvoo Relief Society book, the original version online. And in those minutes, Joseph Smith talks about ordaining the women. And an interesting distinction is Emma Smith, he says, doesn't need to be ordained. She only needs to be set apart because she was ordained previously. And so to me, that's a distinction between was that just a setting apart was an ordination and we ordained. Women believe that Joseph Smith's original vision for the church was that women would be ordained. And this, since we're a church that's so heavily invested in the concept of restoration, to us, this, this is really a restoration of the true organization of the church.

John Dehlin [00:16:44] Some say that women already have the priesthood. What do you think they mean by that?

Kate Kelly [00:16:48] I think that women, I certainly think that women have the power to act in the name of God and that they can, you know, pray on others behalf. I think that some women consider the fact that we can communicate with God and consider the fact that in many ways we do have these responsibilities given to us that women have the priesthood. I would say whether or not that's true, it's functionally irrelevant because we cannot participate in the organizational structure of the church as though we had the priesthood. We're not permitted to give blessings. We're not permitted to serve in church callings. We're not permitted to do any range of the ordinances that the priesthood requires. So whether or not I know that people get into the discussion of, okay, some people say, well, women already have the priesthood, they're given these blessings in the temple, etc. Etc. To me, that's functionally irrelevant because we do not have the power of the priesthood and we are not given recognition as priesthood holders.

John Dehlin [00:17:54] A few years ago, we released a sunstone presentation that was given called A Gift Given, A Gift Taken Away. Are you familiar with a bit of the history on how women seem to be exercising priesthood? Sort of in the mid to late 1800s and early 1900s?

Kate Kelly [00:18:11] Yeah, in that time. And if you give that presentation, you probably know more about it than I do. But during that time, women and there's also a lot of LDS folklore about this, even in popular media. For example, you know, the. The movie at the Joseph Smith Building shows that scene of the woman blessing her oxen, and it gets up and walks again as she continues on, you know, her journey west. And there's also a lot of accounts in journals and all kinds of early Mormonism accounts of women blessing children, blessing their families, so. And particularly associated with childbirth and those types of things. So the powers of women to bless and to take on this mantle of the priesthood have varied depending on the period of the church.

John Dehlin [00:19:05] There's also a washing and anointing ceremony that was performed for women in preparation for childbirth that involved, as I understand it, hands on the head and anointing with oil and. And things that people would be very familiar with. You've heard about that, right?

Kate Kelly [00:19:21] Yeah. And that's, again, I think that's the beauty of the Ordain Women website, is that it's a chance for a lot of different people to give their views and their reasons why women should have the priesthood. And that is a reason for a lot of women is that they want to be able to bless their children or they feel that the sacredness of going through birth is something that they. They want to have this power. They want to be able to feel blessed and be blessed by other women.

John Dehlin [00:19:53] Right. So some practical questions. Are you thinking the same priesthood offices for men and women, so deacon, teacher, priest, etc. All the way up to apostle and prophet?

Kate Kelly [00:20:06] The ordination of women would put us on completely equal spiritual footing with our brethren, and really, nothing less will suffice. So in the event that women are given the priesthood, we will integrate into the current hierarchical structure of the church. That said, what we're asking for at ordained women is that the brethren prayerfully consider the chance for women to be ordained and that we believe that this change will come from God, that it's not us lobbying or voting. We understand and fully recognize that the church is not a democratic institution. It is the gospel. It is a religious institution. And so this change will come from God, and that particular order will also come. Come with God. I'm not sure whether that will change or whether it wouldn't, but I think, again, the project of ordained women, the idea is for us to open up our imaginations as to what would be possible. I know for many Mormon people, it's, you know, probably like your mom and your sisters and those people you were talking about, it's very difficult to separate the concept of the priesthood with the concept of maleness, and probably to asking your mom, you know, would you want to be ordained? Is the same thing as saying to her, do you want to be a man? And so I think part of it, part of this project, and part of the opening up of the imagination is to say to separate those two in your mind, to separate gender from the priesthood and understand the priesthood as a separate power. Whether or not those offices will change that. That's something I don't know. But I know that the priesthood can be associated with all of God's children.

John Dehlin [00:21:55] So would we do away with deacons, quorum and teachers, quorum or priests? Quorum, where it's kind of male only, and women meeting as young women and men in priesthood quorum and women in Relief Society? Would we. Would we ever meet as a gendered group?

Kate Kelly [00:22:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:11] In your vision?

Kate Kelly [00:22:14] I certainly think there's a lot of value in meeting as a Relief Society. Relief Society is one of my favorite meetings in church, maybe because I'm the Relief Society chorister and I get to pick the music. But it's not to say that there are no differences between men and women. I think that's another common misconception, that we want to erase all barriers between men and women and have them be the same, be functionally the same. That's certainly not true. Obviously, there's biological difference, differences that are incontrovertible between men and women. But there are also a lot of value to be able to gather as a group of women or gather as a group of men. That's not to say that there will be no differences whatsoever, that there won't be able to be different classes. I value a lot my participation in Relief Society. And again, we founded ordain women on the anniversary of the founding of Relief Society because that's. That's a heritage that we really value. Where we want to see things change is where women have the equal opportunity and availability to participate in the church. So would women and men serve side by side in a bishopric? Yes. That's something we need to imagine. Would women sit. Would we see women, general authorities participating, equal, and not being segregated on the side like a bunch of, you know, women dressed in brightly colored costumes sitting in their own section? Now, that's something that we need to begin to imagine, women and men being integrated and working side by side, And I fully anticipate that that will happen.

John Dehlin [00:23:51] You touched on this briefly, but what's. You know, I. When I interviewed Ralph Hancock, I tried to talk. He pushed back on this issue quite A bit. You know, you touched on the idea that men and women have biological differences. There are, you know, there are other differences, maybe even, you know, psychological or emotional differences that, you know, might not carry perfectly. But, you know, you could probably be safe to make some generalizations that would, that would be accurate. And what, you know, what would you say to those who say, we don't want equality. We want. We want men and women to have distinct roles, but to still be equal? Why does it need to be equality of power and of authority or of responsibilities? Why can't we have co. Equality with just different roles?

Kate Kelly [00:24:43] Well, separate but equal has been a way for people to avoid full integration of varying groups over the history, the history of our society. But I think separate but equal doesn't ring true. From my personal experience within Mormonism, I don't think that women are treated as equal. That hasn't been my experience. I don't feel that my input is equally valued, and I don't feel that I am equally utilized and appreciated within Mormonism. So while I agree that women, for example, one person said, you know, women, this is someone who sent us a comment said, women asking for the priesthood is like men asking to have babies. It's impossible. I guess I agree in one. The one thing I agree with that person on is, yes, women can have babies and men can't. However, I do not equate that to the same thing as the priesthood. The priesthood is not connected to biology in the same way. And I feel that it could be equally applied to both men and women, irrespective of the differences that we may have.

John Dehlin [00:26:00] I often hear the response that the male version of motherhood is fatherhood, not priesthood.

Kate Kelly [00:26:05] Right? Yep. And I think that's another common. There's something called romantic paternalism that it should be very familiar to most Mormons, especially Mormon women, where instead of, you know, romantic paternalism means you're put on a pedestal, but instead of a pedestal, that pedestal sort of turns into a box or a cage where, sure, you're. You're complimented and you're put on this high pedestal, but at the same time, you're not permitted to leave those boundaries of those things that are. That are prescribed for you. So in many ways, that describes my experience in Mormonism. I feel like the experience of motherhood is very important and often lauded in Mormonism. And it is important. And we value mothers. Everyone has a mother. My mother is an active participant in ordained women and has a profile up on ordained women. However, when you just think through the argument that motherhood is equal to the priesthood. It doesn't make sense because men also have fatherhood. And so the priesthood should be totally separate from gender and from being a parent. Additionally, obviously, there are many women who never have children. So if motherhood is the only thing for them, where does that leave them? I personally don't have any children, and so where does that leave me? Or where does that leave a single woman? And I think that's a big problem for the church right now. You know, a lot of single women are leaving the church. And I think that can be partly attributed to the fact that there is this gender inequality. And it's not just a fringe group that is experiencing this. It's not just, you know, a few women. It's a large portion of women who feel that they are. Are left out of the conversation. And, you know, Elder Marlon Jensen said that he. That members of the church were leaving in droves. And it was the first time, you know, that the church had had this exodus since Kirtland, since the time of Kirtland. And interestingly enough, FAIR had an article in which there was a. They talked about a survey of 3,000 people, and in this survey, women who had left the church, 63% of them cited the primary reason, not one of the reasons. The primary reason that they lost their faith was because of how women are treated in the church. And that actually goes up to 70% in the case of single women. So the. The way that women are treated in the church is not, you know, is often confused as being, you know, some fringe radical feminist blogger issue, but it's an issue for a lot of women. And I think that's something that we really need to take on as a community and as a church, and that's part of what we're trying to do. I was, you know, I've been. I've been describing ordained women to people as a retention effort because we are extremely faithful women. We're not the women who, you know, I'm not one of the women who has left the church. I've never left the church. I've always been active and faithful. But I want to see an organization. I want to see a church. I want to see a body. I want to see a community where I feel like I am included, where I feel like I have the power that is given to me by heavenly Father to act in his name and to serve and to bless the lives of others. I know that I have a great capacity to serve, and that's something that I want to do.

Practical Questions About Women's Ordination

John Dehlin [00:29:49] Having served in Latin America myself and seen how difficult it is sometimes to procure, you know, male priesthood leadership, adult male priesthood leadership, I do have to say that this idea that especially in third World countries and maybe even in other, you know, western areas where frankly, wards are having a hard time finding priesthood leadership, that allowing women to fill those roles could be a very important way to strengthen units in the church.

Kate Kelly [00:30:21] Well, then also you consider the recent change of the missionary age and the jump, the spike in application of sister missionaries. Right now that's not affecting the, you know, the different missions percentage wise necessarily. But eventually, if that spike continues, over half of all missions are going to be comprised of sister missionaries. And a lot of the work that's going on in reaching out to people and converting people to the gospel is going to be carried out by women. And so not only in the existing congregations, but also in our work reaching out to people and converting them to the gospel, this is going to be extremely useful and extremely important.

John Dehlin [00:31:07] Yeah, I think I saw that something between 30 and 40% of the missionary calls being handed out right now are to women. So it's clearly the lowering of the mission age has clearly energized and increased the percentage of female Mormon missionaries. Let's change a bit to just a topic about your views of God and of the church. And you've touched on some of this briefly, I'll acknowledge, but I want to just maybe cover it a bit more. What's your view on why God didn't ordain women from the start? I mean, the Scriptures are pretty explicit. The Doctrine and Covenants is pretty explicit. The Book of Mormon is pretty explicit. Like, you know, for those who view those documents as either translations or as direct revelation, you know, there's enough specificity in the Doctrine and Covenants alone, including word for word direction as to, you know, what to utter in the prayers, that if God had wanted to ordain women from the start, he, she would have done it. And so, you know, I'll take you at your word that you're a believer. But then how do you reconcile that God kind of left you out according to Mormon scripture?

Kate Kelly [00:32:30] Well, I think the original priesthood was given to Levites, and then the priesthood was extended to all the 12 tribes of Israel. Then when Christ came, after Christ came, the priesthood was extended to the Gentiles. And we know that in 1978, God extended the priesthood to all worthy male members. So this has been a progression throughout time to include more and more people, a lot of people who are saying that Women were never intended to have the priesthood themselves, had they lived in biblical times, would not have been ordained. And so I see this as a trajectory of Heavenly Father expanding and opening this opportunity to more and more people. And we started ordained women because we think now is the time that women should be included in this equation.

John Dehlin [00:33:28] But why? Why didn't God get it right from the start? Just any. Do you have any theories on that?

Kate Kelly [00:33:35] I do not have any theories on that. And I don't necessarily think that it's God that didn't get it right. And the same question could be asked of why in 1978 did God totally change his mind about black people? No,

John Dehlin [00:33:55] you're not allowed to quote the Book of Mormon musical on this podcast.

Kate Kelly [00:34:02] Not to quote any recent Tony Award winning Broadway musicals, but no, in 1978, God didn't totally change his black people. The revelation was given to extend the priesthood to all worthy male members. And that was a welcome change. Now, does that mean before that God didn't value black people? Does that mean before that God didn't want them to contribute? No. And I don't think that anyone would say, I think a lot of Mormon people would say we don't know. And there's, you know, the reason hasn't been explicit and you know, God works in mysterious ways. Whatever the reason you think is, I don't think anyone would say God got it wrong. And God never valued black people. That just isn't the case. And I don't think that's the case for women either.

John Dehlin [00:34:52] So in your mind, maybe he's portioning out priesthood according to our worthiness or readiness or ability to absorb versus his own biases or judgments.

Kate Kelly [00:35:08] Yeah. In Matthew, a scripture that we've been talking about a lot lately and that my mom brought up to me is Matthew 7:7. You know, in that scripture it's ask and you shall receive. You know, you have to ask before you receive. It's knock and it shall be opened unto you. You have to knock. We ordain women and this whole idea and this movement as asking, as knocking, we are saying we are ready to receive this. And you know, after that pattern, after that model, it's then that things that this will be given to us, it's then that the door will be opened.

John Dehlin [00:35:41] I do have to say that that's clearly, that seems to be the clear model that Joseph used, that he would stumble onto something, have a question, ask the question, and the revelation would come in response to the request.

Kate Kelly [00:35:53] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:35:54] There seems to be pretty decent precedent for that approach?

Kate Kelly [00:35:58] Absolutely. I mean, that's pretty much the whole. That's the cornerstone or the, you know, the founding stone of our entire religion is that Joseph Smith had a question, went to a grove, asked, and God gave him the answer. And so I think that's something extremely valuable and beautiful about Mormonism, is that at its roots, at its foundation, it's a place where we should go to God when we have a question, and we should sincerely seek that answer and be ready to receive it and imagine that it's possible.

John Dehlin [00:36:32] Right. So this kind of speaks to how you view revelation. I guess we just talked about it a little bit, the revelatory process, and I hear you saying that we need to ask to be able to receive. What about those who claim you're steadying the ark, that authority comes through the proper channels, and then it's not ours to be telling our leaders how to lead. It's the leader's job to lead and our job to follow.

Kate Kelly [00:36:59] Well, I want to state up front that we definitely support Thomas S. Monson s role as prophet and also the quorum of the 12. And I think that as things are modeled, it is true that we are led by our leaders and that we participate. But at the same time, I think it's important for us to demonstrate our readiness as a body. And. And a thing that we've been talking about a lot at Ordained Women is an interview that Gordon B. Hinckley gave. And I think a lot of people are aware of this. It was an Australian reporter named David Ransome, and he asked Gordon B. Hinckley specifically about why there were no women priests in the church. And Gordon B. Hinckley, you know, he said, well, you know, women are happy and women are satisfied. And, you know, the reporter pressed even farther, and he says, is it possible that the rules could change just like the priesthood did with black members? And Gordon B. Hinckley said, yeah, he could change that. God could change that, and through this is through revelation, and that's how it would change. And then he said, but there's no agitation for that. We don't find it. And to me, that is. That is an excellent example, an excellent insight into the readiness of the church and the members of the church demonstrating that they are ready for something and agitating faithfully for that change to happen and that precipitating the revelation to come.

John Dehlin [00:38:39] So you view that as an invitation?

Kate Kelly [00:38:41] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:38:44] I wonder if you meant it as an invitation.

Kate Kelly [00:38:48] He is a prophet of God, and so I think that his words are carefully chosen. For a very particular reason. Now, whether or not he was inviting women to organize and call for ordination en masse, I'm not going to say that. But I am going to say that I AM Perfectly, absolutely, 100% willing to say that faithful women and men should be able to ask their questions, should there should be a space for us all to be able to say what we think in a faithful way. And I think that's really new for Mormonism. I don't think that has existed. And I think that's part of why people feel so uncomfortable with it is that for the most part, that hasn't existed. You know, there was agitation for black men getting the priesthood, and a lot of people prayed for it, and they wanted to see the change, but there wasn't a match movement of members who openly advocated for that change. And so I think this is a very new thing for Mormon people. And so that I understand.

John Dehlin [00:39:57] Well, that. That brings up an interesting point then, because the truth is there were. There were Mormons agitating for allowing blacks, Black males, to hold the priesthood, you know, as early as, you know, probably earlier, but at least in the late 1950s, early 1960s, there's people like Lowell Bennion or Sterling McMurran that were already making noise about this, including Hubie Brown, you know, a member of the First Presidency. But some interpret history as basically saying that because the brethren need to make sure and appear as though they're not caving to the masses, that they're truly being guided by divine inspiration and not just public opinion polls, that actually the agitation that happened in the 60s might have actually delayed the eventual granting of the priesthood to black males. And so, you know, I guess I'll start by saying, you know, what. What about those who just call for more moderate steps? I've seen these lists that many modern feminists have put out there saying, hey, just let us be ward clerks or, you know, just let us have some. Some say into the young women's manuals, you know, so that they can be educated. But, you know, there's a hundred really good small incremental steps like praying in General Conference that we can call for without asking for the big ask that then could risk either retrenchment or even punishment or delay positive progress because the brethren don't like to be viewed as being put on the spot. So I think I've asked you what many refer to as a compound question, but are you happy with women praying in General Conference? What about those who call for moderate steps instead? Why the big goal and what if your big goal leads to retrenchment and a delay in the outcome you desire?

Kate Kelly [00:42:13] I think the. At first, I think the document you're talking about is all are alike unto God and in that document, and you can, you can find it online if you just Google all are alike unto God in that document. It's a call for the first presidency and the Quorum of twelve to prayerfully, you know, integrating women to the decision making of the structure of the church. But then also lists a long list of different ways that women can be included in and integrated into the structure of the church more holistically. And I actually don't see the priesthood as a complete panacea for the way that women are currently treated in the church. It's not to say that women couldn't still be marginalized and excluded from different callings or excluded in different ways in the church, or put on this pedestal in different ways. I don't think that the priesthood will totally eliminate that. There's other ways in which women. There needs to be inclusive language. There needs to be a balance of stories and images about males and females. There needs to be a whole list of different ways that women are included and made to feel valuable in the church. And that doesn't begin or end with priesthood. So all the steps that have been made thus far to make the church more inclusive and welcoming have been amazing victories. And I think if women are indeed allowed to pray in this upcoming conference, I think we should consider that a huge victory. I think it's an amazing step from particularly because it was brought on by a group of women who decided to do a letter writing campaign, which is a very respectful approach. And what they were asking for was a pretty small concession, and that was to be able to pray in public, in a gathering of all the members of the church. I think that that's huge. I think the pants protest is another great example. The interesting thing about pants is they weren't actually asking for any structural changes. It is permitted currently for women to wear pants in church. That's. They're not actually breaking any rules. But the thing that the pants protest or pants event really accomplished was women themselves gathering up their courage to speak out, to reach out to others, to build solidarity within their wards. I think those two events combined give us a really great model and really exciting possibilities for what this can look like. I don't think. I think we need to kind of distinguish between faithful activism or agitating and political activism or agitating. I don't see this as A political movement. I think it's certainly nonpartisan. We have Republicans, we have Democrats, we have everything in between. This movement is not a political movement. This is a faithful agitating. Faithful agitating movement. A faithful group of women who are getting together to, you know, hope hopefully bring about a change within our institution. But it's important to remember that it's not political. And so when people say, you know, could this help or hurt us, you know, strategically, etcetera, I think we need to remember that we're asking for God to bless us and we're saying we're ready. And whether. I just honestly don't think that the brethren are going to feel offended or, you know, make this move or that move based on what we do. I think this depends on the Lord and I. This depends on our willingness to show our readiness and to open up the imagination of the members of the church. And so do I think this is going to crush the chances for women to be able to be, you know, ward clerks in their ward? No, I don't. I absolutely don't. I think there should be a wide range of women. And I actually think that's the exciting thing about this time currently in Mormon feminism is that there are different kinds of Mormon feminists. You know, there's. There's a wide range of views. There are people doing different things. There are different movements going on. And so I think that's a really great sign. We have. We stand on the backs of our foremothers who have done so much, who have written about this for years, and who have, you know, suffered some really real consequences for speaking out about this. But we are at a time. We are at a time, a moment in time where there's room for all kinds of different agitation and action and. And conversation and questions. And to me, that's exciting.

Women's Ordination in Other Churches

John Dehlin [00:46:54] So have you studied at all how women's ordination has affected other churches? And I'm going to give you a little background, just really briefly. I mean, you mentioned yourself, Marlon Jensen's quote, that the church is experiencing its greatest sort of level of apostasy since Kirtland, which I believe is true, at least in the Western church and probably everywhere. And it's a really delicate time where the Internet has brought all sorts of historical issues to the table that are causing sort of educated middle to upper class Western church members to sort of defect from the church almost in droves. And if you look at which churches seem to be strong and which churches seem to be weak, you know, you realize that this challenge with the 21st century church is not just a Mormon challenge. Mainline Protestant churches are in decline. It seems they seem to be the ones who have taken more liberal turns like ordaining gays and lesbians and ordaining women. And you know, if you look at the community of Christ and others who have taken this path, you know, some have argued that this is going to harm the church, that you're going to turn the church in an already sensitive, fragile time down this liberal path that's going to weaken the base members faith in the Brethren's prophetic mantle. And instead it's going to make them look as though they're just caving to modern sensibilities. And in the end, you know, they're just going to weaken the church and ultimately destroy it. And I think there's some data that makes that a credible claim. Can you at all concede that there are potential significant institutional risks to making what many would say is a pretty sharp liberal turn that hasn't boded so well for other, other churches?

Kate Kelly [00:49:08] I absolutely cannot concede that point. I think I have more, more faith in Mormonism than that. And I have more faith in people than that. And I certainly have more faith in men than that. I think, you know, I guess the same argument could have been made in 1977. But did we see a mass exodus of people, you know, after the church quote unquote, caved in 1978? You know, was there a huge exodus of people? Maybe, maybe there were some who left the church because they were comfortable in a racist institution and then when that institution became more inclusive, they no longer felt comfortable. But I think that a more inclusive church does not mean that the brethren have caved, does not mean that they're not inspired by God. And I think of all institutions, Mormonism is one that could weather a significant change in policy like this. I think it would be exciting. I think it would be invigorating. I think in many ways, you know, a large segment of the people that you just talked about who are leaving the church are women. And I've talked to many women since starting this campaign who have said I would still be active member in the church, but for the way that I was treated, but for gender inequality, but for, you know, strict gender roles, but for the chance that I didn't have to serve, you know, in a, in a leadership capacity. I think actually I honestly believe that this would be a boon for the church. I honestly believe that fewer people would leave the church if they, especially women, if they were given, given equal opportunity and given ordination. I honestly sincerely believe that.

John Dehlin [00:51:00] But the data don't, the data show otherwise. I mean, just look at Presbyterians, Lutherans, Episcopalians. They're all in decline in community of Christ and they've all ordained women and the Catholic Church is still at least growing slightly and they haven't. Isn't the data, you know, not support what you're saying?

Kate Kelly [00:51:22] I mean, I can't say. I don't think we can point to one specific thing in all of those different denominations. I mean, is there data to say all of those people who have left specifically left over the issue of women's ordination? Certainly not. I think in general, you know, religiosity among Americans and in all different countries, you know, I served my mission in Spain. There's, it's, you know, being religious is extremely unpopular in Spain, let alone being Mormon. And so I don't, I just, I don't think we can attribute that to the fact that they became more inclusive. I think all of those traditions suffer for different reasons and, you know, there's a general downward trend. Now. I don't necessarily know if that's true of Mormonism, but again, I think it could be counterbalanced by the people that we could reach out to that, you know, by the, by the perception that we were more inclusive, by the, by the ability for women to fully participate.

Reactions from Family, Friends, and Mormon Feminists

John Dehlin [00:52:23] All right, so let's change gears a bit. How have family and friends reacted to your involvement in this initiative? Any positive reactions, any negative reactions?

Kate Kelly [00:52:35] For the most part, I've been overwhelmed by the extremely positive reactions that I personally have gotten. I have been, I guess what I'm going to call pleasantly shocked by the people who have been submitting profiles. You know, my mother submitted a profile. My sister, who is extremely orthodox Mormon who lives in South Salt Lake and is a stay at home mom, she submitted a profile. And you know, aside from my personal friends and family, we've gotten a profile from a currently serving bishop, we've gotten a profile from a woman who's in her Stake Relief Society presidency. We've gotten a profile from a 16 year old girl who's a young woman active in her ward. And so I've just, I've honestly been floored by the response. We put the website out there, we gathered as many as we could and we just hoped that other people, that it would be well received. We had faith that it would be well received. We had faith that even the people who disagreed with us would do so respectfully. And for the most part, that's been the case. And I also told my, you know, my bishop, my bishopricon, my Release Society presidency before the website even went up that this is what I was going to do and this is how I was going to approach it. And they've been also very supportive. So yeah, I've been pleasantly shocked.

John Dehlin [00:53:58] What about ward members, you know, anyone giving you funny looks or, you know, you know, not inviting you to the luncheon or anything like that?

Kate Kelly [00:54:07] Well, it's only been two weeks, so no one has treated me poorly. I think some people have been surprised because maybe we hadn't had that conversation before, but honestly, I haven't received anonymous commenters. Online is a totally different story. But for the interpersonal interactions I've had with people, it's been very, very positive. And even people who disagree and that, that's not to say everyone I know totally agrees with this idea. You know, for example, my sister in law, she's, she's like, you know, I've really, I want to think about this, I want to talk about this. What about this? What about this? What about this? She has a lot of questions and she's not 100% behind me, but I think for the most part people are really engaged in talking about this issue and I honestly haven't suffered any, you know, super awkward situations because of that.

John Dehlin [00:55:01] This.

Kate Kelly [00:55:02] And even online, I think, you know, online people feel free to say all kinds of crazy things that they wouldn't normally say in real life. But most of those attacks have been, you know, ad hominem attacks about our perceived activity in the church, or are we real or are we lying or is this real or that real, you know, or you're stupid or, you know, whatever it is. But I think for the most part in life, when you, when your opponent only has ad hominem attacks to use against you, you've got a pretty good argument. So I take those also as a good sign.

John Dehlin [00:55:36] So I haven't been paying super close attention, but I've been paying a little bit of attention and I'm wondering how sort of the mainstream Mormon feminists are reacting to this movement. I guess, I guess I, I've looked through the profiles, I've seen people that I recognize, but there's a lot of, let's just say, prominent, you know, people within Mormon feminism who don't give an indication yet that they are really joining or being a part of or supporting. And I'm not sure where like feminist Mormon housewives stands on this particular initiative. So how have feminists reacted to you? Have you been surprised has there been less or more engagement among sort of the mainstream, even high profile Mormon feminists or not? And how do you explain that?

Kate Kelly [00:56:39] Well, I think it's. Well, there's a post today on feminist Mormon housewives that I wrote, so they accepted my guest post and there's been a really good discussion on that. That blog is particularly known for their really active, engaged conversations in the comments section. So that's really been starting up at fmh and there are prema bloggers on FMH who have listed their profiles on our site and there are others who haven't. So I think this is a really challenging issue even for Mormon feminists because for a long time, maybe forever in the church, this has been the dividing line between what some called the good feminists and the bad feminists. And the good feminists, you know, they're totally traditional in every other way and they're housewives and they love their kids and they don't push back. But you know, in this particular way they want to be treated equal. And then there are feminists like Lori Winder who is, you know, who is helping us organize ordained women who have been speaking specifically about women's ordination for, you know, over 20 years. And so I think there is a little bit of a dividing line within the Mormon feminist community. But I have been again, pleasantly shocked by the people who have submitted their profiles, who have come around, who have been inspired by our website to really consider the issue and to submit a profile. So I again, we're, we're really new and the website is just a small part of what we envision for ordained women. And so I think it sparked a lot of really great conversations even within the online Mormon feminist community who you would anticipate would already, or at least I would have initially anticipated, all being my allies. Yeah. But I think it's really pushing people in some really good ways.

John Dehlin [00:58:33] But just I may have missed it, so I'm just going to ask it again. So for the, for sort of the more mainstream, maybe well known feminists who don't seem to have joined up, what is the general type of response you're getting as to why they're not joining you? Do they say,

Kate Kelly [00:58:55] you know, if I had a specific idea in mind of one person, I would say it's not a monolith. Yeah. It's not a monolithic thing. It's. People have different reasons. People don't want to stir up trouble in their families. People, you know, for whatever reason, don't see ordination as, you know, they have the Same concern that you brought up earlier, which is, okay, if we ask for ordination now, then how is this going to reflect on the different things we're asking for? Or, you know, we want to change young women's lessons, or we want, you know, a variety of ways for women to be included in the church. And so we just don't see this as the. As the next step.

John Dehlin [00:59:37] So a matter of timing and priority.

Kate Kelly [00:59:40] Yeah, Timing, priority and, you know, personal engagement. I think, for the most part, I haven't had anyone that's, you know, an avowed feminist say, you know, we will never be ordained. And I just think this is wrong. I think for the most part, it's more of a, you know, a strategy question.

John Dehlin [01:00:03] Right. What the right strategy is. And that makes sense.

Kate Kelly [01:00:06] I think that's. That's the case in every movement, you know?

John Dehlin [01:00:09] Yeah, yeah. And I'm. I'm not, you know, I'm not trying to call anyone out or embarrass anyone. I'm just trying to get a sense for, you know, like you said, there are lots of different types of feminists, lots of different ways of being a feminist. So I'm just trying to get a sense for other points of view here. That's all.

Kate Kelly [01:00:24] Yeah, yeah. No, absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:00:26] Yeah. So any reaction from church leadership? Has anyone with a profile been called in, been questioned, been disciplined that you're aware of so far?

Risks, Criticism, and How to Get Involved

Kate Kelly [01:00:39] So two people in our group thus far have been called in by their bishops directly related to their putting up a profile on ordained women. One of them is a current BYU student, and one of them is my mother. My mother lives in Provo, Utah. So both of those, I guess, are Provo bishops. But in both cases, for example, with my mom, what happened is her bishop called her in. You know, they have a good relationship. They're in Provo, so they live a couple streets down from each other. And he had read her profile. He had read the entire website. He had read a blog post that she put up on Exponent about it, and he had also read All Are Alike unto God. The document, the lists, the various steps and ways that women can be more integrated into the church. And he went through all of them with her and really tried to understand her point of view. And one of his main concerns was contention in the ward. He didn't want it to cause contention because, you know, a lot of people in the ward were talking about it, but he. He wanted to assure her that her membership in the church was not at risk. And so I think that's an important Victory for us. You know, we were all a little nervous at first about what would happen. And also the same thing happened with Alex, that his bishop called him in just, you know, to discuss. To discuss the matters with him, and he was not disciplined. He also was not disciplined. So I think that this. This in some ways makes church leadership nervous. But I think the tone of the website is very respectful, and the things that people have to say are also very faithful and respectful. And I think that puts people off guard a little bit and makes them take our message a little more seriously. And that's a great thing. I think that's an amazing thing.

John Dehlin [01:02:36] So as far as you know, there's no reason for people to. To fear that their membership or their status might be at risk, because you've got people having conversations with bishops and stake presidents and them being told that their membership will not be at stake by being part of this issue. Based on the data you have so far, right?

Kate Kelly [01:02:58] Absolutely. Of course, every local leader has a certain amount of autonomy. That's not to say that that's the case for every ward. And we do very specifically state on the website that each person should take into account their personal circumstances, where they live, and their own leadership. So that's really important to us because people are putting themselves out there and they are taking a risk. So it's important to evaluate what that risk really is. But for the most part, so far, it's been. The interactions have been cautious, but very positive.

Guest [01:03:36] So

John Dehlin [01:03:38] this is one of the questions where I sort of ask a harsh question on behalf of maybe a more skeptical listener, just to represent different points of view. I know that. Let's just say there's a more traditionally conservative or believing segment of Mormons that would basically say, you liberals who call for radical change in the church, you know, you don't really believe in the church in an authentic way. And really what you're doing is just making disruptive suggestions that actually would harm the church, and you do it not with a desire to really make the church a better place. So basically, the attack on your motives. And I know that that's an insulting question, but if you don't mind, I want you just to say from a heartfelt perspective how you would respond to somebody who would make that claim about you.

Kate Kelly [01:04:37] Yeah, that claim has been made. So don't feel like you're the only one, John, who is lofting that my way. And I would respond to that first of all by saying, I think for the most part in the church, it is a very New idea that people can be critical or can have a critique and be faithful people. I think, you know, both culturally and through the leadership of the church historically, the response to people who have legitimate questions and the response to people who have a legitimate critique and a faithful critique is to treat them like outsiders. The point of our website and the point of our group and our organization is to present our true selves and our authentic identities and say, this is who we are. We are Mormon people just like you, and we believe that women should be ordained. I don't know these people, so I can't convince them of my sincerity. And I understand that this is a very threatening thing to some people, and the fact that you can evaluate the church with any sort of critical eye or an eye to changing things is seen as very threatening. But I want them to understand that I come from this from a very faithful perspective and a very faithful background. And I am very invested in the church as an institution. And I honestly, this demonstrates my faith in the institution to me that, you know, that the church can change and be more inclusive. And it demonstrates my faith in people, that my message will be respectfully received and that other people will join us and that people will have an open conversation about female ordination. I think if they can just take me at face value, that I am invested in improving the church and making it it a place where I feel comfortable, people like me feel comfortable, and people like them feel comfortable. That's my message to them. Additionally, this is. If you read the profiles and if you knew the people, you would know that this is not a group of raging liberals. This is a. This is a group where everyone from the Relief Society president to the radical should feel comfortable. And it's certainly not a partisan organization. A lot of the people that have put up profiles or who are helping us organize are, you know, Republicans. So certainly not an issue of political conservatism or political liberalism. It's. It's a very broad and wide range of people.

John Dehlin [01:07:27] So what type of response do you expect and in what timeline? I mean, do you think this is a two year endeavor, a five year endeavor? 10, 20? You know, do you have any. Any guess?

Kate Kelly [01:07:38] Well, we're certainly in it for the long haul. And I'm a very patient person in some ways, and I'm a very impatient person in other ways. And this is something that I would like to see change tomorrow. And that's actually the beauty of having a church where there's a prophet at the head of the church. Something literally could change from one day to the next, if that's something that, you know, God sees fit and that the prophet, you know, receives revelation on. So that's the beauty of this structure that we have. On the other hand, you know, I'm seeing things change more rapidly than they ever have before. I'm seeing the church change in some really beautiful and amazing ways. And, you know, women started this letter writing campaign in December and this conference. Women are going to be able to change so. Or, sorry, women are going to be able to pray. So I see that as a very concrete, direct, you know, blessing that we have received for our faithfulness and for our engagement on this issue. Do I think women are going to have, you know, are they going to announce in the priesthood session this coming Saturday that women are going to have be ordained to the priesthood? Seems unlikely, but I honestly, and maybe this is just my, my idealism showing through. I think this will happen in my lifetime time.

John Dehlin [01:09:01] Okay, but you're in your 30s, right? I'm 32, so that could be 40 years from now or 50 years from now.

Kate Kelly [01:09:10] Yeah. And you know what? I, I will still be probably saying the same same things I'm saying today, whether or not it happens on my timeline or it happens on the Lord's timeline.

John Dehlin [01:09:22] Okay. But you, you see yourself as remaining active in the church regardless of whether this, you know, women get, get the priesthood or not?

Kate Kelly [01:09:30] Yep, I see myself remaining active in the church. I get a lot of value out of my current participation in the church. And I feel, you know, when I, when I held out the, the balancing scales, I guess I'm an attorney, so I'm imagining Lady justice, you know, holding the scales. The things that I receive and the blessings that I receive outweigh the challenges.

John Dehlin [01:09:53] All right, all right. So what's, you know, how can people get involved if they want to? What's going on this weekend? I'll Release this tomorrow, April 3rd, a couple days in advance of General Conference weekend. And can men be involved? So it's three questions.

Kate Kelly [01:10:09] Fabulous. So April 6th, from 6pm to 8pm you may recognize that time slot as the time, a popular time for men to be going to priesthood session. And so during priesthood session at General conference, we are going to be having a launch event and it's at the University of Utah in the student union building. And we're going to be, it's an opportunity for women to women and men. We do invite male allies who, you know, maybe don't have tickets to the priesthood session or wouldn't be attending to come Join us as well. And we're gonna. It's a chance for people to meet the leaders of ordained women. It's a chance for us to hear from them. I think one of the, you know, main problems is that women's voices are marginalized within the church. And so we want also to hear back from other women. What are their ideas, what are their questions? What are, you know, some of the things that you're asking me tonight we can bring up and we can have a discussion. And we want to hear from them. So that's April 6, 6 to 8pm at the University of Utah Student Union Building. And we want everyone to come join us. So please, if you're on the fence, if you have curiosity, you know, skip that ladies night at Deseret Book and skip that ladies night at the Quilted Bear and come join us at the University of Utah. We do invite male allies to join us. And you'll notice some of the profiles are from men. There's a recent survey that interviewed Mormon men and women on the priesthood, and there was actually a higher percentage of Mormon men that thought that women should receive the priesthood and be ordained. So we certainly welcome our male allies to join us.

John Dehlin [01:11:54] Okay, go ahead.

Kate Kelly [01:11:56] I was also just going to say they can submit a profile. One of the big things we're trying to do is get as many profiles as we can on the website to represent a wide variety of people and views. So on the website, there's a link to submit a profile, and you can write, you know, a couple sentences or you can write a couple paragraphs, whatever you feel. And we'll put your profile up on ordainwomen.org great.

Closing Thoughts and Testimony

John Dehlin [01:12:23] Okay, so this has been fantastic. Kate, I'm really glad you took the time to do this interview with us. Thank you so much. Do you mind ending just with your testimony as it relates to how strongly you feel about this? I know you've shared it a little bit, but what would you like to leave our listeners with in terms of a testimony?

Guest [01:12:49] So

Kate Kelly [01:12:51] I believe that the church is true. I've been a member all of my life. I served a mission in Barcelona, Spain. And during that mission, I reached out to strangers, complete strangers often, and I introduced them to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I feel equally strongly, and I feel the spirit when I talk about women's ordination. I feel it is time. I genuinely feel that women have so much to contribute to the church and that we can serve and that we can bless the lives of others and that the church as an institution will blossom and grow and that the gospel will be lived fully in people's lives. This will be a blessing. And I encourage people to just imagine what it would be like. Try to get beyond the gut reaction. Try to get beyond any, any negative feelings that you might have and try to think about what this would really look like. Think about having a male or, sorry, think about having a female leader. Think about having a female, you know, talking to you, interviewing you, counseling with you. All of these different roles that are currently held by men, think about them if they were held by your grandma. Think about them if they were held by your best friend. Think about them if they were held by someone that you know. And I think together we can begin to imagine a place and a church and a community where this is possible.

John Dehlin [01:14:32] Beautiful. Okay. Well, we've mentioned a lot of resources. You referred to the why Mormons Questions study to talk about women's and men's issues around treatment of women. I'll provide a link to that, that fair talk you mentioned. We'll provide a link to that you mentioned. All are alike. I mentioned a gift given, a gift taken away. I'll go ahead and make sure and include please send me any other links you want me to include and I'll paste those up there especially for those who want more information on what's going on this weekend. And of course, we'll include a link to your site site, which is ordainwomen.org so, Kate Kelly, thank you so much for listening. I'm really eager to see what happens. There's a part of me that thinks it would just be beautiful to have my mom or my sister be able to put or my wife be able to put their hands or my daughter, daughters, frankly, put their hands on my head to give me a blessing sometimes I could use that. And maybe there are many ways where we could could we could benefit from an expansion of the priesthood. So thanks for agitating faithfully and I look forward to seeing what comes of it.

Kate Kelly [01:15:46] Thanks so much for having me, John.

John Dehlin [01:15:47] All right, take care.

Kate Kelly [01:15:49] Bye.

John Dehlin [01:15:52] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Music today was provided by the Saber Rattlers. Check them out@saber rattlers.com the More Mormon Stories logo was generously donated by StudioCase.com thanks for listening.

Closing Hymn

Guest [01:16:07] Come, come ye saints. No toil nor labor fear but with joy wend your way though hard to you this journey may appear. Grace shall be as your day. Tis better far for us to strive Our useless cares from us to drive to the San Jo. Your hearts will swell oh, all is well, all is well. Why should we mourn? I think our lot is hard Tis not so, all is right why should we think to earn a great reward if we now shun the fight? Gird up your lo Fresh courage Take our God Will ever us for sake soon we'll have let's tell it tale oh, all is well, all is well oh, all is well, all is well. And should we die before our journey's through half a day all is well we then are free from toil and sorrow too with the justice we shall dwell but if our lives are spared again to see the saints their rest obtain I will make this chorus swell. Oh, I'll well. All is well all is well

Kate Kelly [01:20:00] all

John Dehlin [01:20:00] is well

Guest [01:20:03] all is well oh, is well. Talked about All.

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