Introducing Appio Hunter and the Episode

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is December 2, 2025, and today we have in studio someone who was at the center of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints or the Mormon Church's attempts at changing people's sexuality from homosexual, as they used to call it, to heterosexual. You know, you could also refer to this as the conversion therapy or the reparative therapy movement. And of course, I did my dissertation on this topic. We've had several people interviewed over the years on Mormon stories that have alluded to it, but I'm not sure I've ever interviewed someone who was as sort of central and as early and as involved in the Mormon Church's efforts. We're talking Nicolosi, we're talking Evergreen, we're talking those early, let's say 80s, 90s, 2000s years of helping gay men go straight or pray the gay away. And I say that in quotes because we all know now not only was it not effective, but it was extremely damaging to those who participated. So today we're going to be walking through the history or a history of the Mormon Church's involvement in conversion or reparative therapy with gay men. And our guest in studio is Appio Hunter. Hey, Appio.

Appio Hunter [00:01:23] Hey, John.

John Dehlin [00:01:24] Thanks so much for coming.

Appio Hunter [00:01:25] Thank you for having me. Happy to be here.

John Dehlin [00:01:27] Yeah. This is so, so brave and so generous of you to be willing to come on and tell your story.

Appio Hunter [00:01:35] Yeah, definitely. It's, I feel like it's. It's time now. I've been sitting quiet for a while and I figure, you know, now's the time to finally get it out there and, and share the whole story.

John Dehlin [00:01:45] Yeah. And I should also mention, for those of you who have recently watched the Heather Gay series on Peacock called Surviving Mormonism, part one of her series is with Dave Matheson, who was sort of the Mormon Church's leader in, in like, encouraging and administering conversion or reparative therapy for a couple decades. Well, Heather interviews Dave Matheson in part one, and that's also going to be tightly interwoven. You know, Dave Matheson's work, journey into manhood, that sort of thing is very much tied to the background of what you're going to be sharing. Is that right?

Appio Hunter [00:02:27] Yeah. Even though I didn't work directly with David Matheson, you know, we did meet a couple of times when planning some Evergreen conferences. But that's something further down in the story for sure.

John Dehlin [00:02:38] Okay, so hold on to your hats. This is going to be A really important piece of Mormon history. And to. To help guide us through that is my wonderful co host as well, Margi Dehlin. Hey, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:52] Hello.

John Dehlin [00:02:52] Thanks for joining us.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:53] Yeah, I'm delighted.

John Dehlin [00:02:56] All right, appio. Is there anything you want to say sort of as an intro before we dive into your story, or do you just want to dive right in?

Appio Hunter [00:03:05] We can just dive right in. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:07] Okay, great. So where does your Mormon story begin?

Appio Hunter [00:03:11] So my Mormon story actually begins in Southern California. That's where I was born. I was born in Torrance, California and we lived down there. My dad at the time was studying at Long Beach State to get a CPA license. And so my. And so one of my siblings and I were both born down there and then we moved to Utah when I was about three years old or so.

John Dehlin [00:03:33] So really quickly, your parents, let's talk about their backgrounds, nationalities and their, you know, let's say legacy within the church.

Appio Hunter [00:03:43] Sure, sure. So on my dad's side of the family, the legacy within the church goes back to Joseph Smith's day, actually. So my great, great grandfather was ordained a bishop by Joseph Smith himself. And then later on when they. When the pioneers all came out to Utah, he was made the presiding bishop of the church under Brigham Young.

John Dehlin [00:04:07] What's his name?

Appio Hunter [00:04:08] Edward Hunter.

John Dehlin [00:04:09] Okay.

Appio Hunter [00:04:10] And he was in that particular capacity, if memory serves, about 30 to 34 years, if I'm not mistaken.

John Dehlin [00:04:19] But yeah.

Appio Hunter [00:04:19] So no deep roots on my dad's side.

John Dehlin [00:04:24] And your dad grew up where?

Appio Hunter [00:04:25] He grew up in eastern Idaho. So let's see here. He's born in 40. 1942 town. Sorry. So let's see. Rigby, Idaho Falls, Rexburg.

John Dehlin [00:04:39] Got it, got it. So where. Yeah, we're byu. Idaho is basically. So that's your dad, multi generational pioneer Mormon roots, Hunter last name? Yep. And your mom?

Appio Hunter [00:04:51] My mom was born in Brazil and she was actually very, very early convert to the church down in Brazil. In fact, she's like in the 150s range. So there were fewer than 200 members of the church when she was actually baptized back in the 1950s.

John Dehlin [00:05:08] Oh, wow. Yeah, okay.

Appio Hunter [00:05:11] Yeah, so. So deep roots on both sides of the family as far as the pioneer heritage and everything.

John Dehlin [00:05:16] Yeah. How'd she meet your dad?

Appio Hunter [00:05:18] So they knew each other when my dad was serving a mission down in Brazil. They had just met but they really there nothing. There's nothing there obviously when he's on his mission. But then my mom actually came up. But this was back in like the mid-60s when it was very easy for People to be able to immigrate to the US and she came here. She was working as a nanny in New Jersey. My dad went out to visit her. They went to the World's Fair and everything. And then apparently they hit it off very well because months later they were actually married and married in the Idaho Falls Temple.

John Dehlin [00:05:53] Okay.

Appio Hunter [00:05:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:54] So then they ended up in California, which is where you and your brother were born.

Appio Hunter [00:05:58] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:05:58] Okay, how many total siblings?

Appio Hunter [00:06:00] Just me and him.

John Dehlin [00:06:01] Okay.

Appio Hunter [00:06:01] Just the two of us.

John Dehlin [00:06:02] Okay. So what happened now? Now we got that background. Who's older, you or your brother?

Appio Hunter [00:06:07] I'm the youngest.

John Dehlin [00:06:08] Okay, so what happens next in your Mormon story?

Appio Hunter [00:06:11] So when we get here, we were living in. When we first arrived in Utah, we were, I want to say, in Clearfield. And we were there for a little bit. Then we moved to Layton, and that's where I started going to school. I went to Whitesides elementary in Layton and just remember going to. Let me think here, kindergarten and first grade, and really loved it. Great neighborhood, really enjoyed it tremendously. Had very happy memories from the time that we were in Layton. And then right around the time of second grade, we ended up moving. We moved a lot before. Between the time I was born and the time that I was 10, we tended to move around a lot. And so after first grade, we moved to. Actually, no, it was after second grade. We moved to Sugar House in Salt Lake City, and we were there for a few years. I attended third and fourth grades in Salt Lake City, and then finally we had a house built out in Sandy, and we moved down to Sandy when I turned 10. And that's where I finished going to school, you know, elementary school, junior high, high school. And that's.

John Dehlin [00:07:29] You're a Sandy boy.

Appio Hunter [00:07:30] I'm a very much a Sandy boy, yes.

Early Awareness of Being Different

John Dehlin [00:07:33] So you write in your outline that you maybe started noticing you were different than some of the other boys at a young age. Do you want to talk about that?

Appio Hunter [00:07:40] Yeah. So I'd say probably around four or five. I just noticed that I was. And I was very, very sensitive. I could always just be. I was always very aware of just the emotions of people all around me. I could sense how they were feeling, you know, toward me or about me. It was just always something that was there and ever present. Then I also noticed that, yes, I was there. There were no boys within my school that I thought were very cute or whatever and very. I was kind of attracted to. Of course, at that age, you just don't have that particular language, you know, oftentimes culturally Especially at the time that I was growing up here in Utah. It's always just like. About the girls, the boys. And it's still that way, of course, but for me, I was always. No, the girls were just. They were my friends, you know, I would love to hang out with them. Had no problems playing dolls with them and so forth. And just the typical expectations of being involved in sports and so forth never really interested me at all. Some sports, maybe, but not really. It just really wasn't my thing. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:03] Okay. And then how did that sort of progress as you went into adolescence?

Appio Hunter [00:09:13] So I'd say that. So I actually hit puberty relatively early. I was around 13. And that's when I started to really notice that, yes, I was attracted to. To other men. And around what year is this? Let me think here.

John Dehlin [00:09:31] 13.

Appio Hunter [00:09:32] Around 1980. Ish. 81. Ish, yeah. 1981.

John Dehlin [00:09:38] Okay. Yeah.

Appio Hunter [00:09:40] And so that's when I started. Didn't really notice. And we were. I was just kind of very aware of that, that I was definitely attracted to other men. Again, that's also around a time when the expectations and other boys are always talking about the girls and so forth. I just knew that there was something very different about me, about how I felt. I was starting to question, why don't I feel this attraction to girls? Again, not a lot of words around it, but just a very, very heightened awareness of there's something very different about me.

Growing Up Gay in the Mormon Church

Margi Dehlin [00:10:21] So, yeah, I'm curious, were there messages that you absorbed about what it means to be gay or, you know, with friends? What were your impressions about, you know, what it would mean to be gay in Utah?

Appio Hunter [00:10:41] There's a lot of messaging around it. Actually, that messaging was very much that, you know, there. Back then. You know, a lot of words used like sissy and so forth were. Were kind of normal to be used. A lot of disparaging remarks about boys who like boys. And so I was again, aware that, okay, this is something which does not fit into the community. This is something that does not,

Margi Dehlin [00:11:07] you

Appio Hunter [00:11:07] know, that obviously I will get into trouble if I express myself openly about this. So I really learned how to mask my behavior. I became a chameleon at a very, very early age. And it wasn't just within the community or at church, but also just within the home itself. You know, there was. What's interesting is that my home life was very traditionally Mormon, and at the same time, not so much so. For instance, my mom, she was very, very extreme as far as, you know, her interpretations of behaviors and doctrine and so Forth. And yet she, she was fiercely independent. She did not want to, like, fit herself into the mold of the traditional Mormon wife. She's like, no, I'm not going to be silent. No, I'm not going to, you know, stay at home and be, you know, be the tradition traditional Mormon wife who raises the family and so forth. She worked out of necessity, honestly, but she was also not somebody who felt like as, as a woman, she should be silenced. So she was very fiercely independent in that particular way, and yet also was very. I would say that she, she lived by the spirit of the laws, not so much the letter of the law, but sometimes her interpretation of the spirit of the law could be very extreme, you could say. So there was that element as well. And then of course, just now you hear in the Sunday school lessons and everything else, there was just a lot of, of messaging that just was very negative as far as if you don't fit this particular mold, there's something very wrong with you. And so therefore, you know, some bad things might happen. Yeah,

John Dehlin [00:13:00] this, this 80s time period was sort of drenched in Spencer W. Kimball's miracle of forgiveness kind of rhetoric.

Appio Hunter [00:13:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:08] Did that, do you remember any of that rhetoric in your household? And do you remember any of that rhetoric at church specifically? Sort of the being gay is an abomination, being gay is caused by masturbation, that sort of thing.

Appio Hunter [00:13:21] So, yes, there was actually that rhetoric in both, both at home and at church. More so at church than at home. But my mom actually did read the miracle of forgiveness. Her big thing was the sins of omission versus the sins of commission. And so there was. Yeah, I was. The messaging was just everywhere. My mom usually would cite certain things, but nothing about being gay or homosexuality being. No. The sin next to murder or anything like that. No, that was. Was almost entirely at church that I heard that particular messaging. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:01] I have a quick question. Around your early years, I noticed in your outline you kind of described yourself as also highly sensitive.

Appio Hunter [00:14:11] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:12] And I am curious about, you know, do you remember when masking, you kind of talk about masking when that began, and if you felt in your home, if, if you were able to kind of be who you were in the highly sensitive way or, or did the masking start so early due to your perceiving it not welcome, you know, at home, church, and kind of just trying to kind of delve into your highly sensitive young self?

Appio Hunter [00:14:47] Sure, sure. Actually, that's a really good question. I would say at home I was definitely able to be my full self outside is when I would actually start masking. And I would say I'd started masking pretty early, actually. I just. Again, being very perceptive and being very sensitive, I realized that I could not be a very emotional person. The expectation was that boys don't cry, boys don't do these things. So I had to learn how to really kind of suck it up and kind of keep it inside. But at home, I was perfectly fine being able to just be my full emotive self and very sensitive self as well. However, I would say probably around the time that I was around 13, between 10 and 13, is when I started to have to start masking at home as well. So I wasn't as much of my real authentic self while I was at home right around that time, because that's also when no vehicle of forgiveness came out. And my mom would just. She never really said anything disparaging about. About, you know, homosexuality or. Or anything like that. But there was just, again, that sense that this is something that probably should not be brought up while. While I'm at home either. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:11] And I. I'm pretty sure miracle of forgiveness dates back to the 70s and 60s, but I think. You mean that's when miracle of forgiveness became influential in your home, Right?

Appio Hunter [00:16:20] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:16:20] Okay.

Appio Hunter [00:16:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:21] You mentioned in your outline that your dad was distant, and I think what you mean by that is he was probably just working all the time. Yep.

Appio Hunter [00:16:29] Y.

John Dehlin [00:16:29] Like work or callings in church.

Appio Hunter [00:16:32] I know it was more work. So, yeah, the. The. The dynamic between my parents is very interesting because my mom was definitely the more dominant personality there. And I think that. I mean, now that I look back and I'm able to kind of look at it from a broader lens and not through the lens of, you know, being hurt or.

Margi Dehlin [00:16:55] Or.

Appio Hunter [00:16:55] Or feeling victimized or anything like that, I. I can see that it was more along the lines of there was just a very, very. My mom had a very, very strong personality, let's say, and so she might. I really think that my dad spent a lot of time at work just to avoid being at home. Plus, there's another. Another element where I began being very highly sensitive, very, you know, very emotional and so forth. I just. I wanted to spend time with my dad, and he was somebody who checked off all of the things that were expected of him. So he went down the checklist.

Margi Dehlin [00:17:34] He.

Appio Hunter [00:17:37] He served his mission, he had his callings. He did all of these things. But I don't think it's really kind of in his nature to be the father figure or anything. Like that. So really, I think there was that dynamic of him just wanting to avoid the responsibilities. Now, obviously, I'm grateful. I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for him going down that checklist, but I think that was just kind of very much his just going through the motions more than really truly feeling like this is something that he wanted to do.

John Dehlin [00:18:09] Got it.

Margi Dehlin [00:18:10] Do you feel like part of that was kind of going down the checklist and ending up in this place of a family, but feeling ill equipped to maybe be in the role of a dad? You know, there's a way of living where you're checking off the boxes, not fully maybe understanding or knowing what you're choosing. And so is that kind of what you, you sense is just he ended up in a role where he just did not have the resources or the, you know, personality even to really, you know, show up in a father role. Is that kind of how you think about it?

Appio Hunter [00:18:50] Yeah, I think that's a great description of how, of how he showed up and how he was. He just wasn't prepared for it. He didn't realize the, the commitment that it takes to, to step into that role.

John Dehlin [00:19:02] For sure. And then you also mentioned in your outline some childhood abuse around age 10.

Appio Hunter [00:19:09] Yes, exactly. Right around the time that, you know, we moved to Sandy, there was some abuse that did take place. No, not a lot, not frequent, but nevertheless, you know, something that one of those early memories that I kind of stuffed inside and kind of kept compartmentalized, and then later on as I was going through actual therapy to kind of uncover all the things that I kept inside, that's when it started to emerge that those memories emerged and I realized it's like, oh, this took place. And at the time I didn't even think anything of it. For me, it was just like, oh, this is just part of family life.

Margi Dehlin [00:19:51] So.

John Dehlin [00:19:51] And I mentioned, I'm highlighting the abuse and the quote, distant father from your outline because, you know, they, they tie into the disproven theories that we're going to be discussing in a bit. Yeah, that. That Nicolosi, Dean Bird, Dave Matheson and others Evergreen would have perpetuated that the cause of being gay, either by Spencer W. Kimmel's account, might have been masturbation or by Dean Byrd, Joseph Nicholas, Dave Matheson. The cause of being gay would have been a distant father, quote, an overbearing mother and some history of abuse. So if you would. I mean, and again, abuse is so prevalent in Mormonism, we'd all be gay. Right. But And a distant father. That's just a patriarchy where men are working all the time and serving in church. They're just not going to be around. But again, your brother would be gay day if, you know, So, I mean.

Appio Hunter [00:20:51] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:20:53] Science or social science has disproven that abuse and. Or quote, distant fathers, close quote, cause homosexuality, not even mentioning masturbation. But you would have been potentially primed for those types of false theories. Oh, yeah. Because of your background.

Appio Hunter [00:21:12] Oh, yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:21:13] Yeah. Okay. I just want to. We'll get all to that later, but I just want to make sure we

Appio Hunter [00:21:17] covered it for sure.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:19] Okay. So I just have a quick question, and I realize you're kind of in developing years here, 10 to kind of early teens, but I mean, do you remember being conscious that you're holding quite a lot to yourself, like secrets, things that you feel are different about you? Like, are you conscious of that at that age? Or is it more of like a reaction and you're kind of in this unconscious mode of like, you know, put it away, just. And show up? It's an aspect of survival, I think. And so I'm just curious, as these things are now happening to you and you're experiencing you. Let's just say differentness, separateness, in a way. Things that you feel for yourself but might not be approved of or people may see you differently.

Appio Hunter [00:22:25] Right.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:26] In your early teen years, how does this feeling for you?

Appio Hunter [00:22:33] I actually had. Not really given it a lot of thought, but looking back on it, I would say that it was survival mode. I wasn't very conscious of what I was doing. I was just adapting to whatever situation. I just knew that my survival absolutely depended on me being able to adapt. For sure. Yeah.

Faith, Spirituality, and Family Religious Life

John Dehlin [00:22:55] Let's talk about your developing sense of spirituality alongside your religious experiences in terms of prayer, scripture reading, journal writing, and even participation in church and its activities, especially going into adolescence. So many of the gay LGBT Mormons that I interviewed for my dissertation or surveyed talked about deep spiritual connections with Heavenly Father.

Appio Hunter [00:23:25] Yeah, I would fall into that category as well. And again, this is where my. My family dynamic was very odd in that we were very deeply, very Mormon. And at the same time, things such as family prayer, family home, evening scripture study, journaling, all that stuff was not part of the. My dad didn't really prioritize it all that much. My mom was more along the lines of, it's your connection with, you know, with your connection with Heavenly Father, with God, that is the most important thing. The rest of it is just more like going through the Motions. It's really your connection. And so that's what I. That's what I gravitated to. For me, it was very much the. The deep spiritual connection with. With. With the divine.

John Dehlin [00:24:14] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:14] Okay. All right. So let's go into the youth program in high school.

Appio Hunter [00:24:18] Sure. So we went through a period of time just to kind of give you some context and backing up just a little bit. Around the time that we moved from Sugarhouse out to Sandy. We were inactive within the church, but that's also the time that my brother was going to be, you know, he was turning 12. He was going to be ordained into the priesthood. And so my parents went through the process of getting reactivated in the church and so forth. My. During that time that they were inactive as well, my dad got involved with some folks who were very, let's just say, kind of an extremist offshoot of the church. And so during that whole process of getting reactivated and so forth, he, you know, we went through the whole repentance process and so forth, but he never really let go of those contacts that he had.

John Dehlin [00:25:18] These are fundamental Mormon fundamentalists.

Appio Hunter [00:25:20] You. Not so much polygamous fundamentalists, although there is that in my family, of course, due to the history.

John Dehlin [00:25:28] But doctrinal fundamentalists.

Appio Hunter [00:25:30] Exactly. More doctrinal fundamentals. Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:25:33] That got tied up with them in kind of the Ogden Kraut crowd, I'm guessing. Yeah. So this is the Manti crowd.

Appio Hunter [00:25:40] Not so much. I didn't get a lot of details from it, except that I know that this is somebody that my dad had actually known for a good chunk of his life. They met, I think, around when he was in high school in Idaho Falls and had just been kind of back and forth in and out of my dad's life. He had been down in Southern California when we were down there. Then again, he just seemed to follow my dad around, is what I remember.

John Dehlin [00:26:03] Okay.

Appio Hunter [00:26:03] And that kind of gives some context as far as, you know, that particular period where he went inactive was more involved with this other person. And then, you know, when it was time that. I think it was my mom who was really pressuring my dad, like, hey, you know what? It's. It's time now. The kids really need to be able to go to the priesthood and hold the priesthood and so forth. So we started going back to church again. My brother, of course, received the priesthood when he was 12, and then two years later, I did as well. And that's where, when we. I was very much involved with a lot of the youth programs, went To Scouts. Really enjoyed it. Everything that was available for the youth, I enjoyed the social aspect of it. I was there for the social aspect of it, the friendships, the. Not so much the, you know, all the masculine required activities. You know, the. I loved camping, actually. That's one thing I did, like, really loved spending time up in the mountains and camping. That's something that my dad actually did do well, was introducing us to nature, sending us, you know. You know, those camping trips going up were fantastic. So anytime there's a Scout camping trip. Yep, I was on. I was on board. No problem. The sports activities and so forth, yes, I was there. But trying to basically find whatever. Whatever role I could fill that was. That allowed me to be part of the group and not call too much attention to myself and that I could at the very least do halfway decently. So for instance, football. I could either be a really good running back or a really good wide receiver, one of those two, because it didn't require me to be clobbered by anybody tackled. I could, you know, run very fast and I was very, you know, I could. I could very nimbly avoid people. So those were two things that I felt like I did well, at least in a. In well enough to avoid getting too much attention. Called to.

John Dehlin [00:28:13] Was this Alta, actually.

Appio Hunter [00:28:15] Yeah. So I did go to Alta High School, went to Eastmont Junior High and then Alta High School. And it was during this time. Yeah. That all that was happening.

John Dehlin [00:28:24] And how about dating?

Appio Hunter [00:28:28] So I was very grateful for the church's prohibition on dating. I loved that simplifier. It was a big simplifier. And it was also simplifier as, you know, I got older and just like, oh, well, you know, you have to be chaste. You have to be, you know, respect women and everything like that. I'm like, I have no problem in that department. Respecting women. Got that down. No problem. But, you know, I. The high school dances, again, were great. I would ask girls out in order to, you know, fit in with the crowd. I would ask, you know, every single. I think I went to just about every single school dance that there was. And I had a couple of girlfriends during that time. We actually. Mostly for. Even though we've kind of lost touch with each other over the years, we remained friends over the years as well. So my girlfriends were. I think some. At least one of them was like, why don't you ever want to kiss me? Why don't you ever want to? You know, and my excuse, my fallback was always. Well, you know, it just. I just Believe very strongly in being chased until marriage.

Coming Out to Himself and His Parents

John Dehlin [00:29:45] When did you come out to yourself as gay? Do you remember an age?

Appio Hunter [00:29:48] Yeah, I would probably say 13, 14.

John Dehlin [00:29:51] Okay. So when you're hiding behind the law of chastity, that's sort of conscious. You. You're thinking, I know I'm gay, but I need to present straight and date women. So I'll. You were consciously hiding behind the law of chastity, but knowing that really you were gay? Yes. Okay. Wow. Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:10] Like protective. Using it almost as a protective.

Appio Hunter [00:30:13] Oh, yeah, it was a shield. Definitely a shield for sure.

John Dehlin [00:30:17] Did you come out to anyone at 13 besides yourself?

Appio Hunter [00:30:20] No, no, I actually didn't come out to anybody until I was, I want to say 17.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:27] Okay.

Appio Hunter [00:30:28] Yeah, so that's when I actually came out.

John Dehlin [00:30:30] And, and when it came. When. When you came out to yourself, were you. Would you. Were you hoping it could go away? Were you hoping you could change it, or were you at peace with it and accepting of it, especially in light of the Spencer B. Kimball gay doctrines you've been taught as a Mormon?

Appio Hunter [00:30:49] Right. I think I did a fairly good job of being able to kind of. I think personally, I've always been a bit of a cafeteria Mormon. It's like I pick what works and just discard the rest. Although the messaging was still there and I was very aware of the messaging. So from a societal sense standpoint, being able to fit in standpoint, I was conscious of it, but at the same time unconscious of how I was adapting, how I was a constant chameleon in order to just blend in wherever I was. But as far as, as. Would you mind repeating the question again?

John Dehlin [00:31:28] So you were stewing in self shame, religious self shame. You compart. You is a cafeteria Mormon. You, you must. Maybe you concluded that God didn't really mind that you were gay, so that part of Mormonism you weren't going to buy into.

Appio Hunter [00:31:44] No, exactly. I didn't really buy into it.

John Dehlin [00:31:46] Got it.

Appio Hunter [00:31:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:46] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:47] Yeah, this is my question too, because it sounds like there was an emphasis, at least from your mom, about a personal connection with God. Right, With Heavenly Father or. So I was going to ask you about that. So what was your experience then of like a Heavenly Father at that time? Like, what was your. How would you describe your relationship?

Appio Hunter [00:32:12] It's interesting because I never, even until now, I never thought of. Of God, of Heavenly Father as being this, this angry, vengeful being, you know, who's very insecure, you know, people not obeying him or whatever. I never felt that way. Even at that Age. I felt like it was this. This beautiful, loving, unconditionally accepting relationship. It was just there on a personal level.

John Dehlin [00:32:43] You could have dodged a bullet in that regard.

Appio Hunter [00:32:45] I did. Even though I still absorbed a lot of the doctrinal shame and everything like that, on a personal level, it was always very, very deep.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:56] Yeah, that's powerful.

Appio Hunter [00:32:58] Yeah. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:59] And likely a bit confusing because you're having this internal experience of relationship with Heavenly Father that feels warm. Right. Unconditional. And yet you go to church or you're with friends and there's shame messaging still that you're absorbing. So it's both.

Appio Hunter [00:33:23] Yeah, it was both. It was very much both.

John Dehlin [00:33:26] And what were your fears around coming out to your parents, your mom and your dad prior to age 17?

Appio Hunter [00:33:32] Oh, it's interesting because I wanted to. I really, really wanted to, but I'm like, it doesn't feel right. It just never really felt right for it for. For me to be able to come out. So I was accepting of myself. And simultaneously there was. There's like this almost dual personality going on inside of me. The one who hated myself, who was shamed and wanted to just basically crawl into a hole somewhere and die. And the other part of me that was like, this is me. This is me. I want to be able to express me as I am, fully and beautifully, if you will. So what really kind of got me to finally come out, and it was only to my mom, because again, my dad was never really around, was just somebody who I had met that I was. No seeing at the time.

John Dehlin [00:34:36] A man.

Appio Hunter [00:34:37] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:34:38] Okay, but let's back up.

Appio Hunter [00:34:39] Yeah, sure.

John Dehlin [00:34:39] I was going to ask you about any experimentation with other gay men.

Appio Hunter [00:34:45] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:34:46] When and how did that. I'm not asking for, like, lure details, but like, how. How did you do that as a Mormon kid in Sandy, Utah? Sure.

Appio Hunter [00:34:55] So back at the time, the only place where you could really go were, you know, either restrooms or, you know, public restrooms or, you know, at. At the, you know, community center. Like, for instance, you know, where you go to go to the swimming pool or anything like that. Every once in a while there might be somebody that's like, oh, okay, this person is interested in me, whatever. And so there might be, you know, experiences there, but usually it's just you always had to do it in hiding. You always had to find a place where. Where, you know, other people that are, like, you could kind of congregate. So you can very quietly and, you know, secretly experiment, if you will.

John Dehlin [00:35:32] Wow.

Margi Dehlin [00:35:32] And public. Those are both public places.

Appio Hunter [00:35:35] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:35:36] So that's stressful.

Appio Hunter [00:35:37] Oh, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:35:41] Yeah.

Appio Hunter [00:35:42] I mean, I look back now, I'm like, oh, my gosh. I took so many crazy risks, but it was the only way I felt like I could really express myself. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:52] Definitely not go on dates because, you know, people would find out, they'd see you together, and you can't even develop friendships with gay teens again, people might suspect. Wow. So that drives you into, let's just say, romantic or sexual experimentation in bathrooms and parks or truck stops or whatever, because that's.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:17] You use what's available.

John Dehlin [00:36:18] That's the only place you can go where you can hide and maybe not be found out.

Appio Hunter [00:36:24] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:25] Oh, so unhealthy.

Appio Hunter [00:36:26] Yeah. Oh, yeah. And it really developed a very unhealthy. Not just coping mechanisms, but unhealthy relationships as I moved into adulthood as well,

John Dehlin [00:36:36] because my son's helping me realize this, that the prohibition adds to the pleasure. Because if it's forbidden and you have to hide, but then you're doing it in a place like a. I don't mean doing it, but you're, like, experimenting in a place where you could get caught, that all amplifies the dopamine and the serotonin and the oxytocin that makes it even more pleasurable. And that's just a. It's. It's a real lethal and insidious formula. Because if it were. If you were just dating a kid your age, it's. I mean, it's weird because it's going to be a lot less alluring because you're not adding so much forbiddenness and risk to it. So, in other words, they're driving you. The social mores and the religious mores are driving you to unhealthy, risky behavior because all of that makes it more attractive.

Appio Hunter [00:37:50] Yes. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:37:51] That's awful.

Appio Hunter [00:37:53] And, yeah, I look back at it now, and I'm horrified. I'm genuinely horrified at my behavior at that time. It was risky. It was. You know, I was putting so much on the line just to be able to express myself, to be able to feel appreciated. And during all of this time, as you know, through my childhood, through my adolescence, there was also this disconnect because, again, I had these two sides of me that I was trying to balance. I cannot love myself. I could just. Even though I felt. You know, I felt. No. A very deep, beautiful, unconditional love from the divine. I couldn't see it within myself.

John Dehlin [00:38:38] Okay.

Appio Hunter [00:38:39] And so that became a theme throughout my life until not long ago, actually.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:45] Yeah. Yeah.

Appio Hunter [00:38:46] So I was Always seeking validation. External validation.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:50] That makes sense.

Appio Hunter [00:38:51] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:52] I mean, one last observation about this situation where you are experiencing in, on some levels, some freedom to be yourself, but in this environment where there's risk and a sense of emergency, almost like where you're sense you're heightened because it's public, like there are people, is that it also separates you, it separates this, your sexual self from also just having an emotional, like a real emotional connection. Having the two be able to be intertwined as well, where you get to feel seen, you get to feel safe, you get to feel, you know, valued as you are. There's none of that for you in, in those situations, or at least very little. They're not built in for you to experience that for. Sure. Is that right?

Appio Hunter [00:39:52] Very much. That's a beautiful way of being able to describe it. For sure.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:57] Yeah.

Appio Hunter [00:39:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:00] Wow. Thank you so much for being willing to share this. So. So you didn't. Okay. So as you're graduating from high school, I guess the. Back in the 80s, the typical pattern would have been for you to go to one of the BYU's for a year and then go on a mission.

Appio Hunter [00:40:19] Right.

John Dehlin [00:40:20] And I'm also curious about if you did high school seminary just to know to what extent you were being indoctrinated. But talk about whether or not you were a seminary graduate, whether or not you were indoctrinated, and then how you thought about college and mission.

Appio Hunter [00:40:34] So this is another area where my family kind of diverged from the typical Mormon family, where my mom, when, you know, when my brother was getting ready to go to high school, she was presented with this release document of, you know. Release for what? To be able to go to seminary. Because, you know, here in Utah, high school students are released from school for an hour so they can go and attend, you know, seminary during the day. And in Utah, culturally, seminary is just part of your high school curriculum. Obviously outside of Utah, that's, that's very, very different. But my mom read through the documents. She's like, wait a second. I am releasing my son from school to go to religious instruction. That's what Sunday is for. That's what Sunday school is for. So, no, I'm not going to now. I'm not going to have him go to seminary during school time because school's for school. And my mom was very big on education, you know, even though she grew up in a very rural, viral, very rural setting in Brazil, her, her mother, my grandmother, was very big on education. And so, you know, all of her daughters were very articulate very well read. And so, no, the focus was you go to school, not to seminary, so. Yeah, I never went to seminary. I didn't get that indoctrination.

John Dehlin [00:41:57] Again, you kind of dodged a bullet.

Appio Hunter [00:41:58] I did dodge a bullet, yes. Yeah. And then going on to.

John Dehlin [00:42:06] Of college.

Appio Hunter [00:42:07] Yeah, college.

John Dehlin [00:42:07] Yeah.

Appio Hunter [00:42:08] So from there, I actually decided not to go to BYU like everybody else. It was a common. Almost expected. We did have a somewhat rebellious streak within my family, so I decided to go to the University of Utah instead. No. Right out of high school, I. I registered at the University of Utah, went, got accepted, went there. Went there for, you know, about a year and a half or so, and then I'm just like, it's. This doesn't feel right for me at this time. So I stopped going to school for a period of time.

John Dehlin [00:42:46] Okay. Okay.

Appio Hunter [00:42:47] Yeah. And that was actually right around the time that I was introduced to conversion therapy.

John Dehlin [00:42:58] Okay.

Appio Hunter [00:42:59] Or reparative therapy is what it was known as.

John Dehlin [00:43:01] Yeah. So. Okay, so you. You did come out to your parents at age 17. Did you tell us how they received that?

Margi Dehlin [00:43:07] How did that go?

Appio Hunter [00:43:08] Not well.

John Dehlin [00:43:09] Okay.

Appio Hunter [00:43:10] Not well at all.

John Dehlin [00:43:10] Both your dad and mommy came out, too, actually.

Appio Hunter [00:43:12] Just my mom. My dad was just like, yeah, you know, he really. He loved me. I know that. He just didn't really care about being involved, annoying or anything like that. Had he known, had I come out to him, he would have been full on, you know, priesthood, call you to repentance, the whole shebang. But no, instead it was with my mom. And that's another weird thing about my mom's dynamic, is that on one hand, she was very, very strict in her interpretation of the gospel and at the same time, very accepting of people who were not in the gospel, but people who lived very different lives there. She was working at UTA at the time, and there are a couple. No LGBT employees that she had. She was very kind to.

John Dehlin [00:44:06] She was.

Appio Hunter [00:44:07] She. She would talk about them periodically and, you know, not openly or all the time or anything, but I just knew that she had a couple of LGBT employees, and so I felt okay. At that particular point, I'm like, I think it's going to go well for. No. For me to come out with my mom. So when I did, her reaction was not what I expected.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:32] It was.

Appio Hunter [00:44:34] She. She went a little nuts, honestly. So she.

John Dehlin [00:44:39] She went nuts? In what way?

Appio Hunter [00:44:41] So she is like, yeah, no, you're not gay. You're just confused. You are. You know, this is. This is something that, you know, you're being indoctrinated you know, just basically all the typical things that, that a parent would typically say, especially a very religious parent. You know, it's like, oh, no, you're just confused. This is not really who you are.

John Dehlin [00:45:04] Also, the 80s would have been the age crisis.

Appio Hunter [00:45:06] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:45:06] So there would have been a lot of fear around on the part of your mom.

Appio Hunter [00:45:13] Very much. In fact, that was mentioned several times. And I had actually, even though I was very, very young, I had actually done enough research on my own about AIDS and HIV and everything. I'm like, no, it's just, it's. It's a result of very risky practices and I'm not engaging in those practices, so I'm okay, and there's no health risk to me. But so then my mom, she shifted tactics from a health. So from a health concern to more like societal acceptance concern. And it's not. And her, her. Then her message at that point was, it's not that I'm upset with you, and it's more like your society is just not going to accept you. I don't want there to be any doors closed to you as a result of you being openly gay.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:03] Got it.

Appio Hunter [00:46:04] Okay.

How Appio Entered Reparative Therapy

John Dehlin [00:46:06] So let's talk about how you end up in repair to therapy, especially as a non. As a buffet Mormon. Right? Sure.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:14] Yeah.

Appio Hunter [00:46:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:15] Who believes God loves you unconditionally.

Appio Hunter [00:46:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:19] How do you end up in repair to therapy?

Appio Hunter [00:46:20] Yeah, that's like. Now think about it. It's kind of weird how that all unfolded, but basically I was seeing, you know, seeing another guy at the time. We'd been dating for maybe about four or five months and just went through a very, very horrible, horrible breakup. I mean, it was the first time that I just was. I felt that devastating, the world is crashing in around me type of a, of a feeling. And I was just so horrible, so depressed from that that I actually asked for a blessing and from. From actually a family member.

John Dehlin [00:47:03] Okay.

Appio Hunter [00:47:04] And so during. When I received that blessing from that family member, it was. I just remember feeling like a sense of peace falling over me. And it was like, okay, I'm going to be okay. I can move on with my life. No, the world is not coming to an end. And so for several days after that, because I was so distraught, I was emotionally incapacitated for several days. And so that's when my mom kind of used the opportunity to say, you know what? I know somebody who might be able to actually help you. You know, obviously I see you're really, really upset. You're distraught. This has really been devastating. I know Somebody who could possibly help you through this.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:56] So kind of a vulnerable. You're in a bit of a vulnerable spot, it sounds like.

Appio Hunter [00:48:01] Yeah, I was. I was very vulnerable. So at that point.

John Dehlin [00:48:05] And you mentioned having a spiritual experience.

Appio Hunter [00:48:08] Yeah. So when I was receiving that blessing, that's why I just felt that immense sense of peace. I felt like that connection that I had that I always felt that I had with. With Heavenly Father was. Was validated. It was like, you're okay. You're okay. I'm here for you. I stand by you. For me, it was a genuine feeling, and it was, again, a validating feeling of me as a whole, unbroken person. That's what it felt like to me. Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:55] And I can tell those emotions are running deep for you. And I'll just say again, in my. In our research of surveying 1612 current former LGBT Mormons, something like 60% of them received some sort of divine affirmation that God accepted their sexuality.

Appio Hunter [00:49:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:17] So your story fits. Fits totally in line with that.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:22] Which again, and I don't mean to be ham visited, drives me to the question of if you now have received a deeply meaningful witness of God's unconditional love for. For you, that you feel touched by to this day, why would you turn to reparative therapy?

Appio Hunter [00:49:37] That's where the vulnerability comes in.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:40] That's where I see.

John Dehlin [00:49:41] It's social. It's got to be social.

Appio Hunter [00:49:43] It is very social. Very, very social. Absolutely. So that's where. Now.

John Dehlin [00:49:48] I don't mean to laugh. No.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:49] Because it's not funny.

Appio Hunter [00:49:51] It's not funny. But I can. I, too, can actually laugh at it now. I really. I really can because my. Wow, there's some crazy stuff that actually happened. But, yes, it was. It is. So one of my defense mechanisms is being able to laugh.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:10] So, yeah. Humor.

Appio Hunter [00:50:12] Yeah, absolutely. I'm very human, and that's. That's a big part of me. I'm always making jokes. Very, very flippant sense of humor. And yet with that validation, I felt like, okay, maybe my mom has my best interest at heart again. Her messaging up to that particular point was, I don't want there to be doors closed for you. I want you to be okay. I want you to be accepted by society. I accept you, even though I don't accept you. But I accept you. But let's.

John Dehlin [00:50:46] Let's see.

Appio Hunter [00:50:47] Let's do something here to kind of help you be accepted by society.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:50] Got it. In a moment of vulnerability, what I kind of hear is that her fear and desire for you to Be protected and safe in the world. It infiltrated you in that moment. Is that what you would say? Like, it infiltrated you to a point of like. And particularly fear of pain and safety and differences and being different, which is what your lived experience in Utah has been up to this point. Like, who wouldn't want a reprieve from that?

Appio Hunter [00:51:29] That's exactly what I wanted in that moment. Yeah, that's exactly what I wanted. Plus, it's also when I became aware of, consciously aware of this needs to always adapt and please everybody else. That's when I started to kind of put. And again, it wasn't super aware, but it was starting to enter into the back of my mind that the Oprah actually calls it like the disease to please. And that's kind of where I started to realize that, you know, I. In order for me to be truly fit in, I need to please everybody else around me.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:06] Wow.

Appio Hunter [00:52:06] Yeah. So again, being able to sacrifice, and that started through my entire adulthood, this pattern of, oh, you need somebody to climb up on your altar and be sacrificed? Sure. Happy to be that. No, that. Sacrificial lamb, if you will.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:19] Oh, got it.

Appio Hunter [00:52:20] Yeah. So that was the start of it.

John Dehlin [00:52:23] A final connection that occurs in my mind that may or may not make sense. I don't think religions necessarily intentionally co opt things like emotional or spiritual experiences, but whether or not it's intentional, you clearly, you had this breakup. You're devastated, you're vulnerable, you don't know what else to do. You asked for a priesthood blessing because you're told that'll provide comfort. You have a deep spiritual and even authentic interaction with the divine. But how can you not associate that with the Mormon Church since it's a priesthood blessing within a Mormon context?

Margi Dehlin [00:52:59] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:53:01] That is the conduit for you having this emotional or spiritual experience. So it would be completely. And your mom who recommended it, maybe, or was associated with it. So it would make all the sense in the world that you would say, okay, Mormon Church, I just had this spiritual, deep connecting experience with God. What's the next step? And then the church in a way would sort of like play off of that authentic spiritual experience with God and say, well, the next step is LDS social services and reparative therapy. I don't mean to put that on your story, but that's how I'm connecting the dots as I listen to it.

Appio Hunter [00:53:37] I would say, no, you're not putting it on my story as so much as you are accurately connecting the dots. And that is kind of what went through my Mind as well, is that, okay, this is the only. The only reference point of reference that I have is the fact that this is the only church that I've known. There's the messaging that this is the only true church. So therefore, if it's the only true church and my entire family is. Is involved with it, you know, yes, I had cousins and. And so forth down in Brazil that were not Mormon and. But nevertheless, my lived direct experience, particularly since, you know, didn't live that far away from Idaho and, you know, knew that side of the family, the Mormon side of the family, better, to be honest. That was just the whole thing. So that was the solution to me was to go to the one true church and. And go through that process of being able to learn how to truly fit into society using the resources that were made available to me by the one true church.

John Dehlin [00:54:37] Yeah. And there's also sort of this prodigal son slash Saul on the road to Damascus, slash Alma, the younger narrative of, like, the lost soul that returns. Right.

Appio Hunter [00:54:50] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:54:50] And I think that's also. Can be a really tempting narrative that can lure people. So let's talk about LDS social services and reparative therapy, if you want.

LDS Social Services and Conversion Therapy Begins

Appio Hunter [00:55:01] So after my mom said, I have somebody who can help you, she now we went down to. LDS Social Services is out in. Somewhere. I know it's just like in the western part of Salt Lake City and

John Dehlin [00:55:16] West Valley, kind of.

Appio Hunter [00:55:17] Actually not so much West Valley. It's just kind of like very close to, like, Welfare Square.

John Dehlin [00:55:22] Oh, okay.

Appio Hunter [00:55:23] Yeah, got it.

John Dehlin [00:55:24] Western downtown.

Appio Hunter [00:55:25] Exactly. Western downtown.

John Dehlin [00:55:27] Yeah, that makes sense.

Appio Hunter [00:55:28] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so.

John Dehlin [00:55:30] And by the way, in. There was a deep connection between Mormon bishops and LDS Social services at the time.

Appio Hunter [00:55:37] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:55:37] So it would be very likely that your mom would have gone to your bishop, your Mormon bishop, to say, hey, my son's gay. What do I do? And then the bishop would say, hey, go to lds. Take him to LDS Social Services. They've got a therapist in a program that will fix your son.

Appio Hunter [00:55:52] Yeah. And there's another component to that with my mom, and that is she actually happens to be driving pie church headquarters one day because she was still. She still worked, you know, at the UTA close to downtown. And one day online, she was driving past there, she just, like, got this urge to stop and talk to somebody. So she explained it to somebody at church, at church headquarters. They're like, oh, yeah, we definitely have something that can help you out. And then she spoke to my bishop, her bishop, our bishop at the time, saying, hey, this is What I did, and he was like, all on board. He said, yes, absolutely. This is going to be the right direction to go.

John Dehlin [00:56:28] Okay, so how was LDS Social Services?

Appio Hunter [00:56:31] Well, I got there, and the person that I met with just. You could tell that he was a genuinely kind person and very interested in listening to me. When I walked into the room, he just took, like, this deep breath and he's like, wow, I can feel the spirit accompanying you. And so, again, being somebody who at this particular point was aware that I couldn't love myself, but boy, oh, boy, I can sure get love from everybody else. So to be the very first thing to come out of somebody's mouth is like, wow, I can really feel the spirit emanating from you. Validation number one. And then we talked a little about. About the overarching. You know, we talked. He asked me some questions. I told him what had led to my, you know, my emotional breakdown. And, you know, I was completely honest and open, didn't try to hide anything. And then after I, you know, spilled the beans on everything, that's when he started the narrative, which, you know, you alluded to earlier, John, about absent father, you know, the mother who was always there, the one mother with a really, really strong personality. All of those things. I'm like, holy cow. This is me. This is my life.

John Dehlin [00:57:56] It's almost like tarot cards or astrology. If they can come up with the narrative that you identify, it's like, wait, that's me. Right. Even though it's a narrative that half or more of the church could identify with.

Appio Hunter [00:58:09] Absolutely right.

John Dehlin [00:58:10] Yeah.

Appio Hunter [00:58:10] So it was very personalized. I internalized it immediately. I'm like, yep, this is what I need. This is how I'm going to be able to fit into society. This is how I'm going to be able to finally.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:22] Yeah.

Appio Hunter [00:58:22] Reconcile these two parts of me, bring them together and be a whole person. So that's what got me down the path.

John Dehlin [00:58:31] And before we go into the treatment itself, just because I. I pursued my psychology PhD, even in the 80s, it would have been viewed as unethical to do conversion or reparative therapy.

Appio Hunter [00:58:47] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:58:49] And so these therapists that the church would have recommended and. Or hired to LDS social services were. Were doing. Were offering treatments that would be condemned as unethical. By their own licensure. Yes. Yeah. By their own licensure. Or ethics boards, whether it's the American Psychiatric association, the American Psychological association, the American Marriage Family Therapists association, the American. All of them, social. Social. Social workers, they all condemned conversion or reparative therapy by this time.

Appio Hunter [00:59:25] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:59:25] And yet it was being recommended to you as what God wants for you by therapists employed by the Mormon Church. I just want to give that context to then have you. Oh, go ahead, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:38] I have a quick question about that.

Appio Hunter [00:59:40] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:40] So is this taking place mostly in Utah or is this nation national?

John Dehlin [00:59:46] Oh, it's now. It's national. The 90s. This is that we're in the 90s now, right?

Appio Hunter [00:59:50] Correct.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:50] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:59:50] Yeah. The Catholics have their own version, the evangelicals have their own version. Jews. The Jews have their own version and Mormons had their own version. They were all networked. So Jonah was Jews offering new approaches to homosexuality. And yeah, again, I forget what the. I can't believe I'm forgetting what the evangelicals had. But each, each religious group had its own sort of franchise of conversion or reparative therapy. But they all worked with each other. They were all based on Nicolosi's teachings. Joseph Nicolosi, who is, who was a, who was a non lds. I don't know if he's a psychiatrist or a psychologist or a medical doctor or if he was just a charlatan, but he's, he was viewed as the, the grandfather of, of conversion therapy in the United States.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:42] I am kind of interested about his credentials just as a way of.

John Dehlin [01:00:47] I'll have to look.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:47] Yeah. Which is, which is fine. But what I'm getting from this, sorry, justice context is religion led though. Like, like is reparative therapy kind of a religious movement?

John Dehlin [01:01:01] They're really. Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:02] As opposed to.

John Dehlin [01:01:02] Go ahead.

Appio Hunter [01:01:03] I mean to, to my knowledge, I have never experienced anybody who has gone through conversion therapy that was not in a religious context. That's why oftentimes know people who have, who are shocked that even. Even exists. They refer to it as pray the gay away because of that religious connection that's there. To my knowledge, there are still people not officially affiliated with the church who do practice conversion therapy. It's no longer officially sponsored by the church, but there's like a tacit approval. But in evangelical circles it's still very much a thing. And it is. They may not necessarily be licensed practitioners or licensed therapists, but they're very much into the whole evangelical narrative.

John Dehlin [01:01:48] And Julie and I both just looked this up at the same time. Joseph Nicolosi was a clinical psychologist and he would be involved at the American Psychological association in these multi decade debates over whether or not it was ethical, you know, how it should be treated. He would have been involved in all sorts of clinical psychology studies. Yes. Along with Dean Byrd from the Mormon Church and eventually Dave Matheson and others, Evergreen International and the Mormon Church and others, they were all trying to do studies to prove, to prove that conversion or reparative therapy worked.

Appio Hunter [01:02:30] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:02:31] And. And then to establish them as ethical recommended treatments on behalf of the apa, the American Psychological Association.

Appio Hunter [01:02:40] Exactly. And during the time that I was actually going through reparative therapy, and I'm going to call it what it was back then, even though, you know, nowadays it's called conversion therapy, because obviously it doesn't sound quite as insidious.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:53] Right.

Appio Hunter [01:02:54] But, you know, I was very much aware of the debate that was going on with the APA and how there's this big debate about whether or not people should lose their licenses over practicing it and so forth. And so I volunteered again, one of those things like, sure, be happy to be the sacrificial lamb. So I actively volunteered to stand up and say, yes, it worked. So I was happy to be.

John Dehlin [01:03:20] Yeah. And let's back up. So what was the, quote, treatment that you received by LDS Social Services?

Talk Therapy, Men's Groups, and Core Narratives

Appio Hunter [01:03:27] So it was mostly, mostly talk therapy I never went through. Since I never went to byu. I never got exposed to the, to the electroshock therapy, which was a thing

John Dehlin [01:03:38] in the 70s, and BYU Dallin H. Oaks approved it as the president of the university. So you, you, you were able to miss again the electroshock therapy, which is good. Yeah.

Appio Hunter [01:03:50] Dodged multiple bullets here. So. So, yeah, I. But it was mostly talk therapy and, you know, it's like talking about, essentially no delving into a lot of the psychological history of my family, the dynamics and everything else. And there was always this emphasis on how absent my dad was and how, and that is a time that, interestingly enough, I came to understand how my dad just wasn't prepared, either emotionally or societally. He just was not prepared to take on the responsibilities of being a father. He was checking off all the boxes on a list without understanding fully what he was actually getting into, essentially. So that was around the time that I started to understand my dad a little better and forgive him as well, because, yeah, there was some resentment there because he's just this absent person in my life. I mean, he exists. I know his name. I know our church heritage, our roots, our genealogy, the whole shebang. But again, my dad was almost like the black sheep, if you will. Everybody else, all of his siblings were very, very devoted to. And, you know, have. I have lots of extended family on the hunter side in particular that have been mission presidents who have been temple presidents. There's always been like a very deep connection. But my dad, you know, and that's around the. Also before that, you know, kind of getting back to his involvement with the sort of.

John Dehlin [01:05:27] The doctrinal fundamentals. Exactly.

Appio Hunter [01:05:29] The doctrine fundamentalists. Finally, he ended up getting excommunicated.

John Dehlin [01:05:33] Oh.

Appio Hunter [01:05:33] As a result of that involvement.

John Dehlin [01:05:35] So apostasy.

Appio Hunter [01:05:36] Exactly. Yeah, it was apostasy. And it was right around the time that I was kind of like, stop going to church again.

John Dehlin [01:05:44] So normally people don't get a. Get excommunicated for just having weird beliefs. It's either for practicing unauthorized religious practices or teaching openly, you know, doctrines that are viewed as apostate.

Appio Hunter [01:06:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:06] Do you know. And you may not want to talk about that, and it. It's kind of a distraction from your reparative therapy conversation. But of course, I'm curious because.

Appio Hunter [01:06:15] Yeah, the reason why it kind of ties in because, again, it just reinforced how my dad was. Was always absent, but it also kind of reinforced why he was the way he was. So this is all stuff that kind of emerged during the course of the. Of the therapy.

John Dehlin [01:06:30] So.

Appio Hunter [01:06:31] So the.

John Dehlin [01:06:32] It was.

Appio Hunter [01:06:34] It was more apostasy. And so the person was teaching basically, that the prophets have all gone astray, that, you know, they're leading the entire church astray and so forth. And so he was wanting to kind of restore the restoration. Kind of like what's going on right now with Ember Snipper. Exactly. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:51] Yeah. Or. Or yeah, the.

Appio Hunter [01:06:53] The one who's, like, remnant.

John Dehlin [01:06:55] The remnant movement. Yeah.

Appio Hunter [01:06:56] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [01:06:57] Okay.

Appio Hunter [01:06:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:59] But you're pretty sure he didn't practice polygamy?

Appio Hunter [01:07:01] No.

John Dehlin [01:07:01] Okay.

Appio Hunter [01:07:02] Only my great, great grandfather, to my knowledge.

John Dehlin [01:07:04] Okay.

Appio Hunter [01:07:05] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:07] I'm just curious. If you look at that time in therapy where you're. You start processing, maybe the. The pain associated with your dad's. Let's just say, lack of involvement or interest in you, do you. Was that something that you had thought about before, or was that something you were hurting about, I guess, growing up? Did that feel like a rejection or a pain? Or was it that the reparative therapy brought that lens and then you were able. I'm just curious if it brought it to. Brought the pain to you or actually if you had felt that pain growing up?

Appio Hunter [01:07:50] That's actually a really good question. I did feel the pain growing up. I felt his absence. I felt the pain. I felt the rejection.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:56] Yeah.

Appio Hunter [01:07:57] And so, again, that kind of reinforced this. This always looking for outside validation if I'm being rejected by the one person I wanted most to love me.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:07] Right.

Appio Hunter [01:08:09] Then there again, I must be broken. I must, I have to be repaired. Which also feeds into the narrative of the reparative therapy.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:17] I'm seeing all the layers. Yeah. As to the reparative, how you ended up there.

Appio Hunter [01:08:22] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:22] Feeling.

John Dehlin [01:08:24] So when they talk to you about things like being abused or a distant dad or an over involved mom, that to me, that's half of what I think about when I think of reparative or conversion therapy. It's sort of explaining the origins in a way that you would connect to. Even if there's no scientific basis for those origins. You're like, okay, now I understand why I'm the way I am. But the second half, I don't say I understand. I, I allegedly understand why I'm the way that I am. Because back then the church would teach God would never make you gay. You know, it's got to be sin. God doesn't create, you know, simple gay people. It's a choice or it's temptation or it's a bad upbringing. But it's never just God made me this way. So they explain the origins in an unethical, unscientific, unsubstantiated way. But the other half is to fix you. Right? Yeah, it's, it's, it. So it's, it's usually some sort of either pray the gay away or some sort of masculine, you know, activities. Chop wood.

Appio Hunter [01:09:32] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:09:33] Play football. Go on manly retreats. Now these, maybe they developed later with Evergreen and Journey into Manhood.

Appio Hunter [01:09:40] Right.

John Dehlin [01:09:40] But there are all these, or even the hugging things where you would hug other gay men and desensitize yourself to unhealthy erotic. Allegedly desensitize yourself to unhealthy erotic impulses. But that's the second half of the reparative therapy that I'm not hearing in your treatment with this LDS Social Services person.

Appio Hunter [01:10:02] Correct.

John Dehlin [01:10:03] So can you talk about any of that? If it existed?

Appio Hunter [01:10:05] So yes, there was an aspect that did exist and that is getting involved with sports. So there was also a group therapy.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:13] Right. Really?

John Dehlin [01:10:14] Yes.

Appio Hunter [01:10:15] It's like it just.

John Dehlin [01:10:16] If you played football or basketball.

Appio Hunter [01:10:17] Exactly. No, this time it was actually baseball.

John Dehlin [01:10:20] Okay, if you just play baseball. Exactly. Just if only kids would play baseball, there'd be no gig kids.

Appio Hunter [01:10:25] Exactly. So it's like, yeah, I don't do basketball and football maybe, but there are only two positions that I will play.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:33] Okay.

Appio Hunter [01:10:34] Nothing else. And no tackling. Thank you very much. But so, so the baseball, you know, we all go out and know. They taught us how to, you know, Will the bat properly and how to step into the ball to, you know, to. To hit it properly. We learned how to, you know, if a ball was grounded, how to scoop it up with.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:51] Rather unbelievable.

John Dehlin [01:10:52] I mean, and you're in your 20s now. It's like you're in high school or middle school. So your therapist is recommending baseball therapy to cure your gayness?

Appio Hunter [01:11:00] Pretty much, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:02] I don't want to impose that in your narrative, but is that what you're saying? Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:05] Okay.

Appio Hunter [01:11:06] That's actually kind of accurate.

John Dehlin [01:11:08] Do more manly things. In this case. Baseball.

Appio Hunter [01:11:10] Huh?

John Dehlin [01:11:10] Okay, so how did that. Did that fix you?

Appio Hunter [01:11:14] It didn't.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:15] And is it with other, you know, gay men? So are you playing. You're all playing baseball?

Appio Hunter [01:11:21] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:22] Together with this idea of we're gonna develop our manly selves.

Appio Hunter [01:11:27] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:11:28] So these are groups. There's. Okay, so talk about groups, because we were just with one on one. Lds, social services, therapy. Talk about the groups.

Appio Hunter [01:11:37] So then there's the groups that essentially were designed to kind of help. They're almost like 12 step support groups in some way.

John Dehlin [01:11:44] Yes, yes, yes. Addiction therapy.

Appio Hunter [01:11:47] It is very much addiction therapy because there's this narrative which seems to be true across the spectrum of whatever it is that's afflicting you as a Mormon. There's an addiction somewhere in there. You masturbate, you're. You're a sexual addict. You, you know, whatever it is, there's an addiction. And so, yes, there was the, the group therapy, the group dynamic of. Of recovering from this addiction that I had to, you know, addiction to men. So that was part of the dynamic as well. So. And it was the group therapy, where to go and, you know, play sports and so forth to try to get us to be more manly, fit more into that. That heteronormative role that was expected of us especially back in, like the 90s. And so, because I was like, so invested in it, I was all in. And plus, there was a. There's a third group that was like, not officially tied to any. Any therapy. It was more like a support group. Again, very similar to like a 12 step program that we would just come together and support each other in our journey. You know, I very quickly became somebody who was viewed as kind of knowledgeable on the topic and very, you know, I was always sharing my testimony. I was always sharing my perspective of how this is what I learned and this is how it ties into this narrative, and this is how we can move forward with, you know, with what we've learned about ourselves.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:14] Yeah.

Appio Hunter [01:13:14] And so as kind of, I was never really a leader in the group or anything, yet was simultaneously an unofficial person who everybody tended to look to and who always had some kind of brilliant or spiritual insight to share. And so that was, that was one of the reasons why I started like, whoops. One of the reasons why I started to kind of move up within the movement and become more noticed within, within the movement as well. Because, you know, that was just me and I was somebody who, again, because I loved the, I loved the, the attention that I was getting, seeking the external validation.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:54] Right.

Appio Hunter [01:13:54] I was happy to lean into it even further.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:57] Right, got it.

John Dehlin [01:14:00] So, okay, so there's telling you it's because your dad was distant and you were abused and then there's putting you in men's groups. And again, that's, that's a weird. I don't think the church ever thought that through. The way we're going to cure men of being gay is by putting them in support groups with a bunch of other gay men. Like, like it's just gonna help you date. Basically.

Appio Hunter [01:14:26] Yeah, that's exactly what happened with a lot of them.

John Dehlin [01:14:29] But, but, but, but anyway, for the sake of the treatment, quote, treatment, you're in these 12 step programs with a bunch of gay men. You're playing baseball, you're, you're, I'm sure, also pray the gay away. Was that a thing at the time?

Appio Hunter [01:14:44] Yeah, it was.

John Dehlin [01:14:45] So was that part of the treatment, to draw close to Christ, to pray, to repent, to serve in the church?

Appio Hunter [01:14:52] Yes. You know, the typical prescriptive thing for to come overcome any challenge that you're having within the church. You read your scriptures every day. You, you know, you go to sacrament meeting, you know, you go to all of your church meetings, you have, you know, your family home evening, all that stuff, the family stuff. We didn't really do so much, you know, we didn't really do family home evening. But yes, I was very devout about doing my scriptures and everything. That's when I started to kind of enter my religiosity phase.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:19] Okay.

Appio Hunter [01:15:21] I went all, all in again. I'm just somebody who does. It's all or nothing for me. Which interestingly enough does actually tie into something my mom always said growing up and that is it's all or nothing, period. There's no halfway.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:34] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:15:36] So any other parts of treatment than baseball, men's groups, 12 step programs, and super righteousness. Any other parts of the. Because you're going to, we're going to talk about a second about how you became Almost like a poster boy advocate.

Appio Hunter [01:15:53] Right.

John Dehlin [01:15:54] Even to apostles, Mormon apostles, about the treatment's efficacy. Are there any other parts or components of the treatment that come to mind?

Appio Hunter [01:16:03] Yes, and it wasn't actually part of the treatment. It was something that I ended up doing strictly on my own. Because a part of the treatment was that, oh, well, the reason why you're gay is because you've always had, you know, you don't identify with, you know, with healthy relationships with other men. So therefore, as long as you're able to develop healthy relationships with other men, you're not going to be gay anymore. So I took it one step further. I'm like, okay, well, what's the most manly thing around here that I could possibly do that is that will allow me to help to develop healthy relationships with other men? Well, my best friend at the time was part of the church fraternity, Sigma Gamma Chi, which doesn't exist anymore.

John Dehlin [01:16:47] That's at the U.

Appio Hunter [01:16:47] That was at the U. Exactly. And he. For a year, I listened to him talking about all these great activities that they were doing and so forth. And I'm like, bunch of men, all of them straight. Let's see. I can probably, you know, nobody knows my background or anything like that. I could probably go and fit in just fine. And these are going to be healthy relationships with other men. So putting all that together, I decided that I was going to go ahead and join the fraternity. So that was entirely me making that decision. But it fit in very neatly with the narrative that I was learning through the therapy.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:26] Got it? Yeah, got it. So what I'm noticing is now you're regularly associating and developing relationships with men. You've got the baseball with gay men, and you've got now the fraternity with straight men.

Appio Hunter [01:17:42] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:43] But all within this idea, this nest of, like, trying to develop, and I'll just say in quotation marks, a healthy relationship with men.

Appio Hunter [01:17:53] Correct.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:53] Okay.

Appio Hunter [01:17:54] Correct. Yeah. So all that was within that context. And I will say that my time in the fraternity was one of the most positive, rewarding experiences of my entire life.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:06] Oh, tell me. Will you just say a thing, like a point or two about what you feel like it brought you? That was so valuable.

Appio Hunter [01:18:14] I felt like I was able to truly develop real relationships with other men that were genuine, real, and I could say I loved them without it being sexual or anything like that. I mean, to this day, several of my brothers are still some of my closest friends. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:18:33] So.

Appio Hunter [01:18:34] So that was part of it. And yes, they all. They all know about me now. And everything. But wow. So, yeah, I had gone back into the closet. I came out, went back in and decided to go all in on the conversion therapy, Developing healthy relationships with men and so forth. And I, I mean, again, I don't do anything halfway. So yeah, I was, I was in it to win it. I, you know, was ended up being like the social officer in my, in my chapter for, For a couple of years. Not just one year, but for two years in a row. Gay men do know how to no plan great parties. So those were all things that to me were very positive aspects of that particular period of my life.

Margi Dehlin [01:19:19] And I just want to be like, make sure I understand. Were you, were. Were they aware that you were gay at that time?

Appio Hunter [01:19:27] Not at all.

Margi Dehlin [01:19:28] Okay, so when you say you were back in the closet. So you're out at the baseball gathering though, Right? Reparative therapy out, but trying to be fixed. Fraternity friends though, they don't know.

Appio Hunter [01:19:48] Correct.

Margi Dehlin [01:19:49] And you're kind of keeping that.

The Split Self, Suicidal Ideation, and Hidden Costs

Appio Hunter [01:19:51] So once again, going back to compartmentalizing my life, having split self. Split self. Exactly. Okay, so the split self was back, was one side was thriving, the other side was self loathing, despising, shamed, the whole thing. So it was, it was a challenge. It was definitely a challenge. But again, because I was able to learn how in my early years how to compartmentalize so well, everybody saw the happy side of me. Everybody saw the positive side, the, the inspirational side, the. The one, the person who's always willing, wanting to be there for the other person, who's wanting to be of service, wanting to help. That was the side that everybody saw, nobody ever got to see. At least again, my fraternity brothers, they never got to see the part that was depressed.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:41] So can I ask you just a bit about that? Because I'm getting a real sense for the self that shows up almost in service of others. Like, how can I show up? So you all are comfortable. So you all, you know, you know, are able to be with me and value me. So if you were to talk about what people didn't see, the. I mean, that sounds effortful to me. That sounds like a lot of work. But what did that look like? What was the side people didn't see? What did it cost you to, you

Appio Hunter [01:21:24] know, what it cost me was a deeper deficit in self love. It was at the time, because I was so practiced at, was just all subconscious behavior at that point. And so it was very.

John Dehlin [01:21:44] I do.

Appio Hunter [01:21:44] I was aware that there was a sense of I am not lovable. I still have this Attraction to other men. I am not active acting out on it, but I'm still attracted to them. I'm trying to do everything I can to, to, to end this attraction, but it's still there. So again, there's this part where I'm, I'm acting, do, performing the role that I was expected to perform.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:10] Yeah.

Appio Hunter [01:22:10] And doing a really, really good job at it. You know, later in life, somebody joked, man, you should have gotten an Oscar for your performance because that's how well I played it.

John Dehlin [01:22:21] Yeah. And so there's two things there. One is, one is you becoming an advocate. That. I want to talk about that in depth, but before we do that, you must have been, you're experiencing these treatments, quote treatments, and you're probably looking inside thinking, am I really changed? Did these treatments fix my gayness? Did they work and, or have my behaviors changed? So before we go to the advocacy part, to what extent at the time you're experiencing these treatments and being asked to be an advocate for reparative therapy, what were your feelings inside about your gayness? Had you come to believe they had changed and, or had your behavior changed or not?

Appio Hunter [01:23:16] My behavior did not change.

John Dehlin [01:23:18] So you continued to have romantic experiences with gay men while you were experiencing convert, repair to therapy?

Appio Hunter [01:23:28] They were very rare, but they did haven't happened periodically. It was just like, almost like say for instance, if you're in a 12 step program and you relapse.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:35] Right.

Appio Hunter [01:23:36] That's kind of what it was like for me. You know, I would relapse. I

Margi Dehlin [01:23:44] was

Appio Hunter [01:23:47] definitely kind of sliding down, further down into the, the whole of, of self, self loathing again. I kept that hidden. I kept that locked away. I kept it stuffed down inside. But you know, I could tell it's not working. So what do I do? I go down the path that so many people do. And that is I need to read the scriptures more.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:08] I'm doing this double down, double down.

Appio Hunter [01:24:10] I double down. Exactly. It's this problem with me. I'm doing it wrong.

John Dehlin [01:24:15] And this, this reminds me of like masturbation treatment or even dieting where if you're on a diet or you're doing 12 steps for masturbation, you could always hold on for three weeks or a month or even a couple months. But you're, you're, from my experience, the people that I would see as a psychologist, they would always quote, relapse. Because humans aren't meant to go without food. Humans are meant to starve. Humans are meant to go without sexuality. So you can always white knuckle it for a time.

Appio Hunter [01:24:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:24:48] When you're under an unethical treatment, but you're pretty much never going to be able to psychologically or sexually castrate yourself.

Appio Hunter [01:24:58] Correct. And that's exactly what it was like for me.

John Dehlin [01:25:01] Yeah.

Appio Hunter [01:25:01] I would white knuckle it for a while, then there would have a relapse and then I'd go through the guilt, I would go through the shame. I'd be the self cycle.

Margi Dehlin [01:25:08] You're on that cycle ride again.

Appio Hunter [01:25:10] I was right back on the, on the, on the hamster wheel. Yeah, exactly. So it was, it was a rough, rough time. And looking back, I'm like, how did I even survive it? Honestly?

John Dehlin [01:25:24] Yeah.

Appio Hunter [01:25:26] I can't explain how I managed to make it through. Actually, the thought is just occurring to me right now. The narrative that I had in my mind is that if I were to take my life, how would that affect my family? How would that affect the people who care about me, who love me? I didn't care about myself, but how would that actually impact the people that I loved?

John Dehlin [01:25:51] So are you saying you had suicidal ideation?

Appio Hunter [01:25:54] I did.

John Dehlin [01:25:55] Okay. During your reparative therapy?

Appio Hunter [01:25:58] I did, yes. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:25:59] And that's, I mean, that's why I pursued this for my PhD in 2009. So I'll just, I'll tell, I'll back up and just tell you a quick story. So I'm at Microsoft. It's 2000. Okay, 2000. So you know, a little bit after you were in these reparative therapy and, and I've, I've subscribed to this new service that like sends me news notifications every time there's a Mormon related story. Because I'm, I'm in my own faith journey at this point, point at Microsoft, trying to figure out if the church is true and paying attention to the news. And all of a sudden in 2000, if my memory is right, I get an email notification, probably a Google News thing that says like, you know, Mormon dies by suicide. And I click on it and it's this man named Stuart Mattis who In 2000, ish, if I'm remembering right, drives to his. And this I'll just give a safety or trigger warning for those who are sensitive to discussions about suicide. Please take care either of yourself or those who are listening or viewing the news article. Said a young man named Stuart Mattis drove to his local California chapel, pinned a note to his chest that said do not resuscitate and shot himself on the steps of his local Mormon church. So that was in about 2000. And I, I thought, whoa, why would. That's dramatic. You know, I know this sounds terrible. I had started to become more sensitive to the LGBT experience in the professional world. Living in Chicago. My TED, my TED talk, my TEDx talk is about this. And then I had gay Mormon cousins who grew up in Ogden area who came out to me while I was at byu. And then Margi's cousin Scott came out to us while we were at Microsoft. And all of a sudden I'm realizing, whoa, being gay probably isn't a choice and people are dying. This is not good. So that's what. And so that's when I started thinking, maybe the church has this wrong. And then if I fast forward into the. I leave Microsoft in 2004 and I move to Logan and I start noticing the obituaries in the Salt Lake tribute in the Deseret News, and it's just, just week after week, it's like, Johnny loved the Lord was in theater, you know, served his mission, and. And now he's with his loving heavenly Father. You know, that's like every obituary, every week almost, there was an obituary that said something like that. And I'm like, wait, are these gay Mormon men? Is there a suicide epidemic of gay Mormon men in Utah? And it turns out that by all accounts, there was. And so now I'm going back to the 90s and you. Because nowadays apologists are going to say, oh, gay people weren't killing themselves. That was overblown, or gay people are happier in the church. Like, there's all this new apologetics around being gay and Mormon. Can you confirm whether these conversion or reparative therapy techniques in the 90s and 2000s were in fact causing suicidality for you and. Or for others that you came in contact with?

Appio Hunter [01:29:34] I can absolutely confirm that. Okay, Absolutely. Several of the people that were in my group that I was going to group therapy with are no longer with us as a result of the conversion therapy. And that's one of the reasons why I was wanted to tell my story now is because I know what the narrative is. I know what people are trying to say as far as the apologetics are concerned. And I can say emphatically, I was there, I lived it. I was a spokesperson for how it worked. And I can tell you from personal lived experience that it did not work. And if anybody wants to invalidate my story, that's on them.

John Dehlin [01:30:13] Well, not just that it didn't work, that it caused you suicidal ideation.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:17] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:30:19] And that's what. That's what I Found in my. The basically the results of my dissertation was 0% of those who engaged in conversion or repair to therapy had the gay go away. And that was like 900 people I surveyed. Zero percent reported that conversion or reparative therapy eliminated their same sex attraction or whatever it was called, whereas overwhelmingly high percentages reported harm. Whether it was psychotherapeutic conversion therapy, whether it was support groups, whether it was retreats, whether it was religious righteousness, whether it was going to bishops, stake presidents, mission presidents. We looked at like nine different forms of conversion or reparative therapy. All of them were reported as harmful and ineffective.

Appio Hunter [01:31:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:31:14] And often leading to suicidal ideation.

Appio Hunter [01:31:17] Absolutely. Yes. I can confirm all of that.

John Dehlin [01:31:20] Okay.

Appio Hunter [01:31:20] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:31:21] Yeah. So again, I, and I don't mean to be ham fisted, but what I just heard you tell in your story is this wasn't working. You were white knuckling, you still were gay, you would have these relapses, but you were trying to stay on the wagon and be, quote, sober and you wanted to die. And somehow they still recruited you to be their spokesman for these treatments. Working.

Appio Hunter [01:31:52] Yep. All the above.

John Dehlin [01:31:54] How in the world can you want to die and also want to be the poster boy? How does that work?

Appio Hunter [01:32:00] Again, it kind of goes back to that disease. To please.

John Dehlin [01:32:03] Yeah.

Appio Hunter [01:32:04] So what kept me going was it was the desire to please the people around me, to please my family, to please the community, to please my brothers. All of that. All of that. So that's what kept me going. That, you know, again, I was so afraid of how would my death impact the people around me? I don't want to do that to them. I do not want them to be mourning me as. Because. Because they had no idea. They had no idea the truth of my life.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:32] Right.

Appio Hunter [01:32:33] And at the very least wanted them to know the truth of my life. Even though as kid hiding such a huge part of my life from me, from them.

John Dehlin [01:32:43] But then there's another avenue which is just to quit the church and move to San Francisco and live your big beautiful gay life. That didn't appear to you as an option either in the 90s? No. Why was that not an option?

Appio Hunter [01:32:56] That was more of my home life, actually. So, you know, at home, and this is true in the Latin culture in general, but with my mom, it was taken off to an extreme. And that is men do not move away from home until they are married. And so I wasn't married. You don't move away from home. Otherwise it's like, it's offensive, it is hurtful, it is you know, the whole drama that, that no Latin moms like to put on their, their youngest sons especially. It's. And plus there was another underlying dynamic and that is when my dad left. So around the time that he was excommunicated a kid and so forth, he up and he left the family and he moved off to Montana. And so that just left my mom. I ended up becoming her replacement, her emotional support replacement for my dad. And so going right back into the narrative of disease to please.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:54] Right.

Appio Hunter [01:33:54] I am now my dad's replacement. I need to be there for my mom. I have to help her. I.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:59] She needs you.

Appio Hunter [01:34:00] She needs me. She needs me. So I'll do whatever she wants me to do.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:05] Yeah. So I just want to add, I also think there has to be that psychological component too of you. You know, what the church does in always making it your fault that that keeps you in oftentimes because you're like, oh well, I'll just try harder, I'll just read more, I'll just pray more. I'm sure if I just. That that'll be the thing. And I think it keeps, keeps you in that cycle longer as well.

Appio Hunter [01:34:38] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:39] Right. That this belief that it's inherent to you, which then of course points to. That it's within your power to fix it.

Appio Hunter [01:34:48] Exactly, exactly. You know, there's this, there's this narrative of, well, anything that shows up in your life, you created, which I know of a much healthier way to approach it now. Like, yeah, I'm sure I'm responsible for, for what shows up, but it's a result of my decisions. And what was showing up then was a result of my choosing to stay put but also learn, choosing to believe what I was being told.

Margi Dehlin [01:35:13] Yeah.

Appio Hunter [01:35:14] And so, so yeah, that was just like the self reinforcing cycle of it's you, the victim blaming, you know, it's you, it's your fault. You're the one who's not. Not good enough. You can't do it properly. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:35:29] So, okay, and so you, you couldn't be your big, beautiful, best gay self and you were doing conversion therapy and, and felt trapped. So you were suicidal. That all makes sense. But you were denying it because you wanted to please. The church at the time would have given two other options for you, celibacy or marrying a woman. So do you want to talk about whether those were two menu options given to you as a part of this therapy?

Appio Hunter [01:36:04] They were indeed.

John Dehlin [01:36:05] And how do you. How did that happen?

Appio Hunter [01:36:08] So the celibacy was more appealing option for me. Because I could not. I could not. I could not do that to another woman. I know that a lot of, you know, a lot of the people that I was in therapy with, yes, they went and they got married and so forth. And I told by their bishops.

John Dehlin [01:36:23] They were told by the bishop to marry a woman.

Appio Hunter [01:36:25] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:36:25] And that it would go away.

Appio Hunter [01:36:26] Exactly. Yes.

John Dehlin [01:36:27] Promised. Yeah.

Appio Hunter [01:36:29] But fortunately, because again, there is that element of growing up. It's like you pick and choose the things that you want to know, live by. It made no sense to me whatsoever. Why would I do this to another woman?

John Dehlin [01:36:42] Yeah.

Appio Hunter [01:36:42] Why would I, knowing how I feel.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:45] Yes.

Appio Hunter [01:36:48] Hurt her in that way. Especially if there were children involved. I mean, and there was no attraction whatsoever. I mean, women to me were my best friends. You know, they are the people I could emotionally connect to. They are the people that I could hang out with. There was just the. I respected women too much and I respected, not myself, but the other person too much to do. Do that to them. So that was something that just never resonated with me, ever.

John Dehlin [01:37:16] And our research showed like 70% divorce rates in these mixed orientation marriages and super low mental health, you know, attributes or reported attributes on the, on those straight spouses and the, the gay spouses. Depression, anxiety, suicidality. It was just a disaster for everyone involved.

Appio Hunter [01:37:40] I'm friends with some people who, you know, that that was exactly the result. The women who were in part of these mixed orientation marriages, and it has scarred them. Some have been able to move on. Some have actually very good relationships with their ex husbands. Others, even two decades later, still are traumatized by the experience. They have not been able to move on.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:04] Yeah. Yeah.

Meeting with Church General Authorities

John Dehlin [01:38:06] So you mentioned that you were invited to LDS Church headquarters to meet with three general authorities, including the late recent prophet or president of the Church, Russell M. Nelson, and President Henry B. Eyring, who's currently in the LDS Church First Presidency. Tell us what that was like to bear your testimony about reparative therapy to Mormon apostles, prophets, seers and revelators. You can go as slow as you want on that one. Do you remember what year that was? Ish.

Appio Hunter [01:38:39] I don't remember the year, but 90s. It was in the 90s. It was definitely the early 90s. I want to say possibly 91. 92. I want to say 92.

John Dehlin [01:38:48] Okay.

Appio Hunter [01:38:48] That's when it happened. President Nelson was still a member of a quorum of the twelve Apostles. President Eyring was actually in the Presiding Bishopric at the time.

John Dehlin [01:39:00] Oh, okay.

Appio Hunter [01:39:01] And I can't remember who the other general authority was but, you know, there. I think it was a member of the 70, but I can't remember who it was. I just remember Eyring and Nelson because they were like. They were like the big wigs, if you will. I was invited by my therapist because, again, I was, like, held up as the shining example of when you commit you how this works. Because I was. I was oftentimes, you know, other people who are just starting with conversion therapy were sometimes referred to me by the other therapists within church social services for me to kind of mentor them and help them along and so forth, because I was just so devoted to the religious aspects of it. And so they saw my religiosity, they saw my devotion to the church and to the doctrine and everything else as being an example of how this actually works. And so, consequently, because I was a mentor to several young men, I was kind of very vocal. In fact, at one point, when there was a panel of people at the University of Utah who are talking about conversion therapy and how it actually works, I wasn't part of the panel, but I was there to support them. And there's a lot of the people at the LGBT community that were there that were just angry, understandably so. And no Channel two was there. One of the reporters from the local news was there and, you know, interviewing people from the LGBT community. But I felt like this is going to be very lopsided. There's nobody who's representing the conversion therapy side. So I walk up to her and I said, no, I'm somebody who actually is going through it, and it's. I'm perfectly okay. So she interviewed me, and I did end up on the news, but no, it was edited. So that way, what I said kind of like fit into the narrative that they wanted, essentially. But because I was willing to, just because I was taking the initiative on my own, they knew that I had, on my own, gone and joined the fraternity. They saw the clip on the news and everything. So, like, this is somebody who truly is willing to stand up and be a vocal advocate for conversion therapy. So that's when I got invited to go to church headquarters somewhere on one of the upper floors. And that's when I met with President Nelson, President Eyring, and the other general authority. It was not a long meeting, maybe about 30 minutes. Not a lot of questions were actually asked. It was more like there were two other people that were in conversion therapy with me that were also present. My mom was there, I think the other two, they didn't have any family. That was supporting them at all. So it was just the two of them. And kind of funny, my mom almost became the adopted mom for a lot of the people conversion therapy group. She is just always somebody who is just very, very loving. Very loving.

John Dehlin [01:42:20] I'm kind of surprised Dean Bird wasn't there.

Appio Hunter [01:42:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:42:23] And Dean Bird was sort of the Mormon. I got the sense that he was closeted gay himself from the audio recordings of. I know that's a terrible assumption. But I mean. And I think I've had it validated that he himself struggled with being gay. But he was a physician who I would say was the grandfather of Mormon reparative or conversion therapy.

Appio Hunter [01:42:48] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:42:48] And he definitely, as far as I understand it, had the ear of the brethren and would have been behind the creation of Evergreen International.

Appio Hunter [01:42:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:42:58] And the church's program with conversion and repair therapy. Subscribe. He wasn't in this meeting.

Appio Hunter [01:43:03] I'm kind of surprised he was too. And none of the actual therapists were there. It was just, you know, the general authorities, the three of us, plus my mom. I think one of the representatives from church social services was there, if I'm not mistaken. It was my actual therapist that I was actually seeing. But it was a small, small group.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:24] So what was the purpose of that meeting to your understanding?

Appio Hunter [01:43:27] To bear testimonies how this church sponsored program was having a positive impact.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:33] I see.

John Dehlin [01:43:34] And it's so weird because many of us, and maybe you would want to be angry at the church leaders for sponsoring conversion or reparative therapy and they were having gay men and probably women tell them that it worked. But y' all were victims of the church, you know, too. So in some ways it was circular. It was like this circular self reinforcing disaster where the church made you suppress your homosexuality and told you to do conversion therapy. But then you would do the conversion therapy and want to please. So then you'd give feedback back to top church leaders that it was all working so they would feel like they wanted to support it and encourage it more. What a terrible self reinforcing cluster bomb. You know what I'm saying?

Appio Hunter [01:44:30] It's a horrible self.

John Dehlin [01:44:32] Yeah.

Appio Hunter [01:44:32] It's a horrible feedback loop.

John Dehlin [01:44:34] Yeah.

Appio Hunter [01:44:35] Echo chamber within a feedback loop.

John Dehlin [01:44:36] Yes.

Appio Hunter [01:44:37] Yeah, it's. It's awful. And. Oh yeah. I mean, cluster.

John Dehlin [01:44:42] Yeah, Cluster up.

Appio Hunter [01:44:43] Cluster F is.

John Dehlin [01:44:45] Yeah.

Appio Hunter [01:44:45] That my word for it too, honestly.

John Dehlin [01:44:48] Oh man.

Evergreen International and Being the Poster Boy

Appio Hunter [01:44:49] Yeah. So. But again, it's a short meeting. We each bear bore testimonies. Now this is what's really, really weird about it is that being in the room with the general authorities Was again akin to being in a. Having a spiritual experience. I believe that they were genuine in their expressions of love for us. But here's where I think that there's a part of me, it's like, yeah, but was there expression of love for me because of the fact that I was a poster boy for what they were doing?

Margi Dehlin [01:45:28] You were working within the system.

Appio Hunter [01:45:29] I was working within the system. So of course they're going to be expressing this tremendous love for me to. And support for me.

Margi Dehlin [01:45:39] That's right.

Appio Hunter [01:45:39] Because I was.

Margi Dehlin [01:45:40] Yeah.

Appio Hunter [01:45:40] I was everything that they were hoping.

Margi Dehlin [01:45:42] That's right. You were also of use to them

John Dehlin [01:45:46] very much at that point.

Appio Hunter [01:45:48] Very much, yeah. So that was.

John Dehlin [01:45:54] Yeah, yeah. And I'm reading, I'm. I'm looking it up, and I'm finding that Evergreen International was formed the summer of 1989.

Appio Hunter [01:46:05] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:46:05] So just a couple years before, you would have gone and borne testimony to the church leaders.

Appio Hunter [01:46:10] Correct. And. And interesting. So Evergreen International is an offshoot of one of those, a group that I had actually been attending. And the name of it at the time was called Phoenix.

John Dehlin [01:46:19] Oh, I've never heard of that.

Appio Hunter [01:46:21] Yeah, so that was actually the predecessor to Evergreen.

John Dehlin [01:46:24] All right.

Appio Hunter [01:46:24] And, you know, some of the people that were part of the Phoenix group were like, yeah, no, we, we think we should have a more structured approach because it was very informal. It was very, you know, let's all this is just get together. Let's support each other, let's bear our testimonies. Let's. Let's basically be almost like sponsors with, within the 12 step, you know, type of a thing. But there was a small handful, I think five or six of the individuals who are like, no, we need more structure. We need more this. So they went off and formed Evergreen. And those of us who remained in Phoenix kind of looked at Evergreen as being like the apostates of the group, if you will. So that was the, that was the origin of how it actually all started. And then Evergreen, you know, because they. It was very well organized and they were trying to bring in all these experts and so forth to kind of help with the, with the movement, if you will. They gained the credibility, they gained the attention of, you know, the church and others. And so that's how Evergreen actually started.

John Dehlin [01:47:26] Well, eventually Evergreen, the. The church, the Mormon Church, would send a general authority or an emeritus general authority to the. To the annual Evergreen Conference to speak. Evergreen Conferences were held on LDS Church property and through direct or indirect funding. Evergreen was funded by the church.

Appio Hunter [01:47:48] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:47:49] And its. And its financial Supporters. So it became an official. Unofficial, official arm of the church.

Appio Hunter [01:47:59] Yeah, yeah, exactly. And then my involvement with Evergreen, eventually I kind of got over my, okay, fine, you know, a bunch of ungrateful, angry people, because that was the narrative within the Phoenix group. So after I got over that and so forth, I was loosely involved. But I was invited to help plan a couple of the conferences, the very, very early conferences. I think it's like either the second or third that there are two conferences that I was involved with. And so I did help. I was part of the steering committee. They help with the planning and everything else. And the second conference that I was assisted with, the. Assisted with, that's where we managed to score a big, big coup as far as the. The Mormon community was concerned, because we managed to get the grandfather of the entire reparative therapy, Joseph Nicolosi.

John Dehlin [01:48:58] He spoke at Evergreen, to speak at

Appio Hunter [01:48:59] Evergreen at that particular conference. And it was a big deal because, you know, the evangelicals and Mormons, they do not talk to each other. He was. He was basically like the. The spiritual figurehead of Exodus, which was

John Dehlin [01:49:12] the Exodus International was the Christian equivalent to Evergreen.

Appio Hunter [01:49:16] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:49:17] Wasn't Nicolosi Catholic, though, But maybe. No. Okay. Okay.

Appio Hunter [01:49:21] Yeah. I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:49:21] Okay.

Appio Hunter [01:49:22] But. So that's. That's where I actually ended up meeting him at that point.

Margi Dehlin [01:49:27] And you were assigned to be his chaperone.

Appio Hunter [01:49:29] I was.

Margi Dehlin [01:49:30] What you said.

Appio Hunter [01:49:31] Yeah, exactly.

Margi Dehlin [01:49:32] And what. What was that like, what would you do as a chaperone?

Appio Hunter [01:49:35] Basically, I would just drive him around where he needed to go. You know, I would say with him at lunch and so forth. Just know two people just hanging out and then just talking and having a good time. Basically. That's kind of what it really boiled down to.

Margi Dehlin [01:49:49] Interesting.

Appio Hunter [01:49:51] Making sure that he got to his places. No way he needed to go, for instance, if he was speaking because he was the keynote speaker at that particular conference, so making sure that he got there to. To, you know, on time so he could attend his meetings or whatever. So. So that was part of it as well.

John Dehlin [01:50:05] And what types of, you know, speakers and. And presentations were given at these conferences and what types of social activities or clinical or therapeutic activities were conducted at these conferences?

Appio Hunter [01:50:18] So there really weren't any clinical or therapeutic activities that were actually presented there at the. It was more. Most of what was presented was actually just studies, you know, studies showing out how it's effective and so forth. You know, other. Other people within. Within other thera. Within church social services. Yeah, there was, I think, a general authority low Low ranking general authority that was there at the conference, Both conferences. So it's just basically a lot of cheering on helpful insights as far as how this can work and so forth. But yeah, for me, it had more of a social aspect of it than it did an actual therapeutic, like, part of it. But then again, I'm sure it evolved more because this is in the very, very early days when they're still trying to figure out what they wanted to do with the conferences.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:16] I see.

Appio Hunter [01:51:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:51:18] Okay. And then also these sorts of conferences. And later, North Star is another name that emerges as sort of a successor to Evergreen and Journey into Manhood, which is what I think Dave Matheson created as an offshoot of Evergreen. These gatherings of Mormon gay men had the reputation of also being havens or hotbeds for Mormon gay men hooking up. Is that. I don't want to impose that on your narrative about Evergreen, but.

Appio Hunter [01:51:55] Oh, gosh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:51:56] I mean, okay, talk about that. Like, you're there to say, I'm fixed. And all these men are gathering to say, we're Mormon, we're believers, we're fixed. And they're hooking up on the side. Explain how that worked.

Appio Hunter [01:52:08] I think it's so. Cognitive dissonance. Dissonance.

Margi Dehlin [01:52:11] I was gonna say. It's called, like, being a human being.

Appio Hunter [01:52:14] Right, Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:52:15] Yes.

Appio Hunter [01:52:15] It was pretty easy. I mean, behind the scenes, a couple of us are jokingly referring to it as a. As a second rate meat market. Honestly. Yeah, we were just like. I mean, we knew things were going on, but, you know, there's also kind of like an element of judgment. Judgment. It's just like, oh, they're not really committed. Or this.

Margi Dehlin [01:52:32] I mean, interesting.

Appio Hunter [01:52:33] There was. There was judgment, but no judgment. It was again, a weird dynamic. A really, really weird dynamic.

Margi Dehlin [01:52:40] I can imagine.

Appio Hunter [01:52:41] Yeah. But I mean, I was hit on a couple of times and honestly, it's just like, oh. I mean, the guys who hit on me, they hit on me. But, you know, you could. I could tell that there was innuendo and, you know, in their conversations.

Margi Dehlin [01:52:54] Yeah.

Appio Hunter [01:52:54] Oh, they were. I mean, they were really, really good looking. And had I not been so devoted to this, again, I'm committed. I'm in it to win it. I totally would have hooked up.

Margi Dehlin [01:53:06] Yeah.

Appio Hunter [01:53:06] Oh, yeah. But no, I'm on the steering committee. I have to set an example. I have to be the person that people look to.

Margi Dehlin [01:53:13] It reminds me of the pink elephant a little bit. Not to be like, very reductive, but what happens when it's like, don't Think of the pink elephant. You're in this like complete deprivation mode of living and then it's sort of like, let's put a bunch of just, you know, in one room.

Appio Hunter [01:53:33] Yeah, well, you know, the pink elephant reminds me of, of, you know, it's like, okay, fine, I can't hook up with these men, with these people, but at least I still have Rosie Palm, you know. Yeah, no, it's just. Yeah, so, so, you know, you, you, you find a way to relieve the pressure one way or another. So.

John Dehlin [01:53:49] Yeah, but Margi, I don't. I'll just add to what you say it's more than just the peak elephant, because the peak elephant suggest some external random thing that's just introduced that once it's introduced and you're told not to think about it, you think about it more. There's also just your innate drives. And it's not just sex. Tell me if I'm wrong. What else is it besides sex? There are other components, right?

Appio Hunter [01:54:15] Oh yeah. What are? From me?

John Dehlin [01:54:17] Yeah.

Appio Hunter [01:54:18] For me it was more emotional connection. The sex was part of it. But to me, I achieved that emotional connection through the sex, not the other way around.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:26] That's right, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:54:28] So it wasn't just you were after sex, you were after emotional connection, intellectual connection, psychological connection, aesthetic connection, spiritual connection and sexual connection. And you just happened to be along all those fronts, attracted to men, not women.

Appio Hunter [01:54:46] Correct.

John Dehlin [01:54:46] Women could be friends.

Appio Hunter [01:54:48] Yep. But the men were where I wanted all of that. It was, I wanted that, you know, from the men. And of course, you know, the way that I would. Sometimes I would be valid, self validating for myself because there's that huge gaping hole of self hatred that's sitting within me. My way of, of feeling like, yes, I was lovable was if I could successfully, successfully seduce someone. Of course this was after I kind of. After I left the whole conversion therapy thing in real and just decided this isn't working for me anymore. But that's where I, you know, kind of, I was depriving myself afterward. I'm like, yep, no more, I'm done. Then kind of going off the deep end as far as seeking validation through. Okay, can I, can I successfully seduce someone?

Margi Dehlin [01:55:38] Yeah, I mean, I guess with the pink elephant. What I was trying to say rather like ineffectively was just this idea of like extreme deprivation or absence of things that make us want to live.

Appio Hunter [01:55:55] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:55] Like emotional connection is part of what makes us want to be alive. Right. This experience of sexual connectedness with another person being known, being. It is part of like Aliveness. So the idea of, like, no, you. You cannot have that. But by the way, we're going to stick you in a room with a bunch of people while you're being deprived of that. Like, to me, that just feels so inhumane.

Appio Hunter [01:56:24] It's very inhumane and problematic.

Margi Dehlin [01:56:26] Like, no wonder. No wonder people were honestly human in the moment. And then.

Appio Hunter [01:56:34] Yeah, I mean, we see that. We see that in other religions. I mean, the constant scandals within the Catholic Church, you know, because. Because, you know, priests are not allowed to express any sort of intimacy at all, except for spiritual intimacy, intimacy. And within the Mormon Church, it's. It's the same thing, just expressed in a different form.

Margi Dehlin [01:56:51] Right.

Appio Hunter [01:56:52] So, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:56:54] Okay. And then really quickly, in your meeting with Henry Iring and Russell Nelson and the other general authority, did they say anything that came across as interesting or hurtful or inspiring, or were they just quiet and mostly listening? Is there anything that you walked away with, with other than feeling the majesty or spirituality of the formal, of their authority and of the surroundings?

Appio Hunter [01:57:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:57:22] Did they strike you as spiritual or uplifted or enlightened or not enlightened or not spiritual? Any. Any impressions?

Appio Hunter [01:57:31] My impression was that, you know, they spoke very little. Honestly. They looked there. Their attention was focused entirely on who was speaking. So they were very present in the meeting. What I saw in their eyes was a. The only way I can describe it is compassion. It wasn't like, oh, just like, here we are, you know, we're just going through the motions or whatever. I saw compassion in their eyes. I really did. It's like, you've been suffering. You've been suffering. And thank you for sharing this journey with us. And we're happy that we can provide you the framework with which you can receive God's love, with which you can participate in the atonement.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:21] That's so tough. Yeah, that's so tough because we love the idea of compassion. But like, the compassion comes from this place of a judgment about you as you naturally are, as a problem.

Appio Hunter [01:58:37] Yes, yes.

John Dehlin [01:58:38] And also it's them either intentionally or unintentionally creating the disease and then offering themselves up as the cure.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:47] It's almost like they cut you and then are treating you for the cut that actually they do. You know what I mean?

Appio Hunter [01:58:53] Exactly. You know, kind of goes back to the.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:55] The.

Appio Hunter [01:58:56] The conversation that frequently surfaces, you know, here Marmee's stories, which is the high demand religion that creates these environments where you become so dependent on the religion. They cut you, they offer you the healing, then they cut you Again, they offer you. There's this horrible cycle and then of course there's the narrative of, of, oh, well, you know, if you, if you choose to leave, it's because you just couldn't, you know, you couldn't handle it. My response to that is, that's true. I can't handle it. I can't handle hating myself. I can't handle going through this process of having to stick my, you know, stick myself in this little box and, you know, with a straight jacket on. You are absolutely right. I want my freedom. I want my freedom to be able to celebrate who I am as a full and complete human being. I can't handle, you know, the self hatred that is, that kept me imprisoned for such a long time. So the people who say that, no, you can't handle it. Absolutely. I 100 agree. I don't want that as part of my life at all.

John Dehlin [02:00:01] Yeah. And yet for what, five years you were the poster boy for it.

Appio Hunter [02:00:05] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:05] Yeah. Which is just so hard and sad and dark and.

Appio Hunter [02:00:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:11] You know, it's why your story is so important and why it's so courageous. Because, you know, today the church will just be approaching this and other things like it in different ways. But this model, this structure of denying of a human element, of pathologizing it, of making you feel guilt and shame over it, of then offering, quote, cures for something and the cures don't work, and then having non profits or poster boys or, or experts all try and support something that really is unethical and unsupportable and then churning through poster boys and churning through generations of people and doing damage is just, it's just rinse and repeat. And the thing that, what I think gets escaped, that gets missed from a story, an individual story like yours is tens of thousands of Mormon gay men or Mormon lesbian women either were celibate and lived horrifically sad and unhealthy lives, or they as gay people, married straight people and had horrific marriages or painful, dysfunctional, unhealthy marriages with kids now intermingled. And most, most of them ended up in divorce with really sad, horrible outcomes. Other than they probably love their kids and they probably had love for their partner.

Appio Hunter [02:01:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:01:43] But like this policy wreaked havoc on tens of thousands of Mormon families across multiple decades and multiple generations.

Appio Hunter [02:01:56] For an institution that focuses so much on the family, it's not amazing how many families they ripped apart.

John Dehlin [02:02:02] Yeah.

Appio Hunter [02:02:02] Through the counsel that they kept on giving.

Margi Dehlin [02:02:04] Right.

Appio Hunter [02:02:04] And how much damage was done. It's, it's, it's Sad. It's really, really sad.

John Dehlin [02:02:11] Yeah. And it's why after all these years, you would probably feel compelled to tell your story.

Appio Hunter [02:02:17] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [02:02:18] Because they made you part of it. They made you complicit. They made you a poster boy.

Appio Hunter [02:02:22] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:02:23] For this.

Appio Hunter [02:02:23] Yeah, exactly. And of course, part of it was for me also living up to my pioneer heritage.

Margi Dehlin [02:02:30] Yeah.

Appio Hunter [02:02:31] You know, there's that component of, you know, my great, great grand father Edward Hunter, who was, you know, the presiding bishop of the church under Brigham Young, you know, have all of the, you know, have these incredible, wonderful uncles who. Who have served as mission presidents and know cousins and so forth, that all have. Have served in high positions. Maybe not reaching the point of being a general authority, but nevertheless positions of great respect within the church. Why. Why would I not. Not want to contribute to that family heritage?

Margi Dehlin [02:03:04] Yes. It's hitting me too. This idea of, like, what happens when you believe you're innately created, like, wrong, that it creates this thirst to this. It and is so innately Mormon. To be chosen, like so much of Mormonism is like specialness and that you're chosen. So here you are, you know, a gay man meeting with, you know, the top people in the church, and you're chosen. You want to be chosen. You know, and of course you did. Of course you did.

Appio Hunter [02:03:44] Yes, absolutely. Yes. And another little string that feeds the narrative of I'm broken. External validation. I got it. I'm chosen. Yay, me. I can feel good about myself for now.

Margi Dehlin [02:03:58] That's right.

John Dehlin [02:03:59] And maybe even most importantly, mom can be proud of me.

Appio Hunter [02:04:05] Oh, yes. That was always a through line through it.

John Dehlin [02:04:09] All of it.

Appio Hunter [02:04:10] Mom can be proud of me.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:04:12] Yeah. So talk more about how it unraveled. How did you go from poster boy to both leaving conversion therapy, reparative therapy, and closeted gayness and basically leaving Mormonism and I think leaving Utah. Like, how. Take us through how all that unraveled after those five years.

The Unraveling of Conversion Therapy

Appio Hunter [02:04:32] Sure. So although, you know, the. It started to unravel shortly after that conference, actually, with. With Dr. Nicolosi.

John Dehlin [02:04:39] So we're in 97ish now.

Appio Hunter [02:04:41] Yeah, about that time. Yeah. But actually, no, we're talking about 95.

John Dehlin [02:04:45] Okay.

Appio Hunter [02:04:45] So 95 is. Was, you know, it's kind of like a slow burn. It just was reaching the point where it's like I was relapsing more. The level of self hatred was just horrible. AOL was starting to become a big thing at the time, so chat rooms, everything else. The Internet.

John Dehlin [02:05:02] Enter the Internet. Enter the Internet.

Appio Hunter [02:05:05] Exactly. Back when you had the dial up connections and the whole thing. So the chat rooms and so forth were just kind of my place of being able to feel connected, feel valued, feel loved and so forth. Met this one, started chatting with this one person out in Jacksonville, Florida. And we just had this real fantastic connection. And I'm like, you know what? This might potentially could go somewhere. So went out for a little visit. As far as my mom was concerned, I just had a good friend that I was going to go out and visit in Florida and spent a week there, had a wonderful time. And I'm like, you know what? I really need to live my life. And I was still going to church. I was still going to the singles wards and so forth. You know, the student wards up at the University of Utah. I was, because the fraternity was part of ldssa, the Latter Day Saint Student Association. I was in the BYU body bubble at, you know, the University of Utah. LDSSA is as much of a bubble as BYU is essentially. It's like BYU Light is what I called it. So, you know, I was there, I was active, I was going to the wards, I was going to activities. One of the things that always drove me crazy whenever I'd go to these activities is the two constant questions. I call them mandatory questions. Questions, where did you serve your mission and when are you getting married? I just got so tired of hearing those questions all the time. Finally, I just went to the mission thing because I actually did not serve a mission because at the time I was going through conversion therapy. I wanted, I desperately wanted to serve a mission. I wanted to serve God. I wanted to do everything possible, spread this beautiful message of love and everything else which I still felt that my personal connection never went away. I still believed in that and I still felt validated and loved. Cannot explain why I could hate myself so much and yet at the same time still feel so loved. It was, there's the. There's a lot of messed up stuff going on up here. And so when I wanted to go on a mission, I went through the whole process. I went through the interviews, the worthiness stuff and so forth. And then finally I had to go through church headquarters in order to be able to receive a mission call. And I was told, well, church no headquarters said that now is not the time. I'm like, okay, that's weird. But then after additional conversations with my bishop, I realized that, oh yeah, the reason they gave me now is not the time. It's like, well, you have repented, you have come clean, you have done all of These things, you are. You are good. But there may be other young men that are out there who have not gone through this process, and we do not want to put you at risk. That was the narrative. I'm like, no, it's more along the lines of, y' all are very, very afraid of me going out there and converting your sons or whatever. So I've now realized that it was more just literal homophobia of sending somebody who was acknowledged going through conversion therapy out to the mission field.

Margi Dehlin [02:08:31] Got it.

Appio Hunter [02:08:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:08:33] Yeah. And.

Appio Hunter [02:08:34] And it's.

Margi Dehlin [02:08:35] I.

Appio Hunter [02:08:36] My bishop was a wonderful man. I mean, I had. Honestly, I feel like my experience within the church, despite of all the harm and everything, like that, was always one of people genuinely loving you because they saw me as being completely 100 devoted to that path. Now, that's straight and narrow path. So, of course, you know, you're going to be supported and you're going to be, you know, you're not going to have people just like, oh, it's so sad that that narrative is not going to exist as long as you're showing up all the time.

Margi Dehlin [02:09:08] So.

Appio Hunter [02:09:08] Yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:09:09] And I do think that's complicated because I do think, you know, harm can be unintended for people that, you know, in their experience, feel like they love you and care about you.

Appio Hunter [02:09:24] And I know it's authentic. I know it's genuine.

Margi Dehlin [02:09:26] Yeah. And harm can still happen there. And I think that's kind of a complicated thing to experience and parse apart, I feel.

Appio Hunter [02:09:36] Yeah, yeah. Definitely complicated.

Margi Dehlin [02:09:39] Yeah.

Appio Hunter [02:09:40] So. So after, you know, so finally when I got tired of the, oh, when are you going on your mission narrative? I just finally said, I actually served my mission here.

John Dehlin [02:09:51] Yeah, you did. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:09:52] Yes.

Appio Hunter [02:09:53] And it was not the typical mission that you would think of, but, yes, I served my mission right here. Like, really, like. Yep. I had a, you know, I had a special mission that I was called to do.

John Dehlin [02:10:03] The Salt Lake City North Evergreen mission.

Appio Hunter [02:10:04] That's exactly right.

Margi Dehlin [02:10:07] That's right.

Appio Hunter [02:10:08] Yes, I did serve my mission, just not out there in the field.

Margi Dehlin [02:10:13] So.

Appio Hunter [02:10:14] So, yeah, that was basically the five year mission. I served a five year mission.

Margi Dehlin [02:10:19] Honestly.

Appio Hunter [02:10:21] Hallelujah. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:10:23] Same intensity, same control. Worse intensity, worse control. But all like the elements.

Appio Hunter [02:10:30] Yes, exactly. Oh, yeah, yeah. So. So that's. That's. And I'm like, okay, this works great. And so. And then of course, the whole thing of, when are you getting married? I couldn't avoid that one. So I just. I never really responded to it. I'm like, oh, I just haven't found the right person yet.

John Dehlin [02:10:48] I know a really cute girl I want to set you up with.

Appio Hunter [02:10:50] Oh, yeah, I got a lot of that.

Margi Dehlin [02:10:52] Yeah.

Appio Hunter [02:10:53] I went out on some dates and again, hit it off. Had a great time, but, you know, I would never let it go. Go very far.

Margi Dehlin [02:10:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:11:01] So.

Appio Hunter [02:11:02] So. Yeah. And, you know, so circling back to my decision to live authentically, it's like, I can't do this anymore, but I don't want to. I was petrified of, you know, coming out to my mom again and that whole drama. Don't want to deal with that. So what's the easiest thing to do?

John Dehlin [02:11:20] Move.

Appio Hunter [02:11:21] And since I'm not getting married. But I found a loophole in my mom's narrative because it's like, you don't leave the house until you're married. Well, my loophole was go as far away as I can. So I found a job in Tampa.

Margi Dehlin [02:11:36] Right.

John Dehlin [02:11:37] Funny. Margi's cousin that we referred to earlier lived in Vermont. He moved all the way to Washington state to. To come out to himself and to others. And we were out in Washington at the time. You went from Utah to Florida? All the way to Florida. My cousins. My gay cousins who grew up. Up in Ogden area, went to Cambridge, Massachusetts, and they. It's just like. That's really far.

Appio Hunter [02:12:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:12:05] It's like reverse pioneer.

Appio Hunter [02:12:06] Oh, yeah. Very much. You want to get as far away as possible without necessarily relocating to another country. That's what I did.

John Dehlin [02:12:13] So wild.

Appio Hunter [02:12:14] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:12:14] It also reminds me of the poem by Mary Oliver, the Journey, because it. It's basically, you're going out in a way to get beyond all the voices. Get. Get some space around you so you can hear yourself.

John Dehlin [02:12:28] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [02:12:29] Like quiet the external.

John Dehlin [02:12:31] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [02:12:31] That's what it reminds me of.

Appio Hunter [02:12:32] Oh, yeah. I really needed to quiet the external because it was the internal was. Was joining the cacophony of the external.

Margi Dehlin [02:12:41] Yeah.

Appio Hunter [02:12:42] And it was just starting to become unbearable. And I. I needed to be real to myself. I needed to live the life I really wanted to live. I was already like 20, 26, 27 by that point. I'm like, yeah, yeah. No, no, no, no. I can't continue doing this.

John Dehlin [02:12:56] Yeah.

Appio Hunter [02:12:56] So I use the. No, Moving closer to this person in Jacksonville is kind of a pretense to look for the job. And then I found the job in Tampa and I moved to Tampa, and we're still talking, and then suddenly, out of the blue, because he had been talking about. No, we. We. We really need to move closer to each other so we can see each other more Frequently moved to Tampa three weeks later, it's like, oh, no, you're not close enough. So that was that. Fortunately, I had made the decision to move for myself. I made the decision. Sure, there was, like, a slightly influencing factor, but I wanted to live authentically.

John Dehlin [02:13:32] So I want to bring out one last thing in your outline really quickly before we move on that you've alluded to, but I want to also make it very clear.

Appio Hunter [02:13:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:13:40] Is it right or wrong that you wrote in your outline that you saw Mormon male participants in Evergreen end their lives and that that was influential to you, realizing that you weren't going to stick around and be one of those statistics?

Appio Hunter [02:13:56] Yes. Yes.

Margi Dehlin [02:13:57] You're going to save yourself.

Appio Hunter [02:13:58] I was going to save myself.

John Dehlin [02:14:00] Because you had Evergreen or Mormon reparative therapy. Male peers die by suicide.

Appio Hunter [02:14:07] Yes, I did.

John Dehlin [02:14:09] I'm so sorry. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:14:10] Yeah. I'm so glad you brought that up, John. Like, we need a moment for that.

Appio Hunter [02:14:14] Yeah. No, it was. When I think about them and how they suffered. No, there are no words who can. That can really express the loss of those souls who. Who suffered as much and were not able to make it through. There just are no words to describe that. But it feels like especially these are people that I knew, that I cared about, that I loved. So. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:14:55] Needlessly lost.

Appio Hunter [02:14:56] Needlessly lost. Exactly. Exactly. So thank you for acknowledging that and acknowledging them. So I appreciate that.

John Dehlin [02:15:09] Yeah. Well, thanks for sharing. And that's why this topic is so important, and that's why we're so grateful you're willing to share your story with us.

Appio Hunter [02:15:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:15:19] Accountability, right?

Appio Hunter [02:15:21] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:15:22] So you move to Florida, leave the church. Did you continue believing. Did you have any theological, historical, or doctrinal deconstruction at that point?

Appio Hunter [02:15:33] No, I continue to believe. I just was like, I know, right? As far as I'm concerned, I am still Mormon. I still identified as Mormon. It was. There was no issues whatsoever as far as that particular aspect of it. That was. That was central to my spirituality. I just didn't want to go to church anymore because I just didn't want to be constantly asked, where did you go on your mission? When are you going to get married? And I just want to live authentically. So, yeah, still Mormon, still believing, still all that, but just not active anymore.

Margi Dehlin [02:16:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:16:05] Okay. And you, You. You write in the outline that you met your husband, but you didn't get married in the 90s? No.

Meeting His Partner and Building a Life Together

Appio Hunter [02:16:13] No.

John Dehlin [02:16:14] But you. You became partnered. We did in the 90s, yeah. Now, is this a partner that you were with for a Long time and. Or still with.

Appio Hunter [02:16:22] Yeah, we're. We will be. We're approaching 25 years.

John Dehlin [02:16:27] That's amazing.

Appio Hunter [02:16:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:16:28] So when you say you met your husband and partnered with your husband in the 90s, one of the first men you dated in Florida, you end up partnering with, finding a life.

Appio Hunter [02:16:40] Yeah. So he was probably, I'd say, of the serious relationships that I had because, yeah, there were a lot of hookups. I did kind of go crazy, you know, after being repressed for so long, you know, the pendulum swung one way

Margi Dehlin [02:16:53] and then finally find its way.

Appio Hunter [02:16:55] It finally found its way to the center. So when it did, there were maybe three people that I was. No. Dated very seriously, and. And my husband was the last of those. We actually do not celebrate our wedding anniversary as our anniversary. We celebrate the day that we actually met.

Margi Dehlin [02:17:13] Yes.

Appio Hunter [02:17:13] As our anniversary.

John Dehlin [02:17:14] What year was that?

Appio Hunter [02:17:15] That was in 2000. Early 2000. 2002.

John Dehlin [02:17:20] Okay, okay, okay.

Appio Hunter [02:17:23] So.

John Dehlin [02:17:23] So, yeah, that's amazing. You've been together with your partner for 25 years.

Appio Hunter [02:17:27] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:17:27] And I love, love the serendipity aspect of how you met.

Appio Hunter [02:17:33] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:17:33] Your husband as well. Yeah, he was lost.

Appio Hunter [02:17:36] He was lost. I helped him find where he was living because he just moved in the neighborhood. Genuinely. Like, he still gets lost to this day, honestly.

Margi Dehlin [02:17:43] Yeah.

Appio Hunter [02:17:44] It's just his thing. But helping him find where he moved into and then him taking me out to dinner that night as a thank you. And. Yeah, we've been together ever since.

John Dehlin [02:17:53] And he was never Mormon or lds. Right. Okay.

Appio Hunter [02:17:56] He grew up. He from Peru. Grew up. Grew up Catholic.

John Dehlin [02:18:01] And then you write. So you didn't tell your mom you had a partner?

Appio Hunter [02:18:06] Nope.

John Dehlin [02:18:06] Correct. Nope. So how'd you handle her visits?

Appio Hunter [02:18:09] That was creatively.

John Dehlin [02:18:12] She would come visit you.

Appio Hunter [02:18:14] She would come visit me. The first time that she surprised me, it's like, oh, I'm coming out to visit. Because for me, it was easier for me to go out to visit her because that way I can keep everything hidden and so forth. So she decided that she was going to come out to visit. I'm like, oh, crap, what am I going to do now? So I. I told my husband, could you go stay with a friend for a few days while she's here?

Margi Dehlin [02:18:34] Oh, wow.

Appio Hunter [02:18:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:18:36] And then he's gonna feel like you're ashamed of him or embarrassed.

Appio Hunter [02:18:40] Yeah. Somehow he.

John Dehlin [02:18:42] He got it.

Appio Hunter [02:18:43] He understood. Yeah, he understood. Yeah. Because, you know, he had been married, he had two sons. He gave.

John Dehlin [02:18:50] Marriage a woman. Woman.

Appio Hunter [02:18:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:18:51] Okay.

Appio Hunter [02:18:51] Exactly. So he had two sons. So he kind of understood because you Know, he wanted to, you know, protect them as well and everything. So there was a dynamic of mutual understanding there.

Margi Dehlin [02:19:02] Yeah.

Appio Hunter [02:19:04] Yeah. So we're like, okay, fine, no, we'll. We'll play this little game. And that just kept going on for a while. You know, Ivan was just my good friend. Yeah. Yeah. He was just my good friend.

John Dehlin [02:19:16] Oh, wow.

Appio Hunter [02:19:17] Yeah. So he was, you know, just very much a part of my life from the day that we met. And it really kind of finally came out again when we moved back to Utah.

John Dehlin [02:19:34] I could hide that for mom.

Appio Hunter [02:19:35] When you move to Utah, especially when you're living with her temporarily, trying to find housing.

Margi Dehlin [02:19:41] Indeed, indeed.

Appio Hunter [02:19:44] So that was a challenge. We did our best to kind of. Kind of keep things on the down low and just be very discreet and everything. We would actually take little, you know, road trips together so we could spend time together.

Margi Dehlin [02:19:58] Right. It sounds like. So did you experience when you moved back to Utah, living temporarily with your mom and partnered.

Appio Hunter [02:20:09] Right.

Margi Dehlin [02:20:09] Did you experience, I don't want to say like a. But like moving back into. How can I make you comfortable, your feelings, you know, before our reality, you know. Did you experience that?

Appio Hunter [02:20:24] I did, yeah, I did, yeah. Absolutely. And it did cause friction between us.

Margi Dehlin [02:20:28] Yeah. That sounds stressful.

Appio Hunter [02:20:31] Oh, it was very stressful for both of us.

Margi Dehlin [02:20:33] Obviously.

Appio Hunter [02:20:38] I don't know how he managed to endure my. My craziness. Yeah, I. I really don't understand how he managed to endure all of this, like, weirdness and just messed up head. That. No. Was part of me.

Margi Dehlin [02:20:53] Yeah. And I think too, it's. It's so indicative of roles like the. The importance of family systems, roles within families, and this idea of a child who has also been conditioned to take care of a parent.

Appio Hunter [02:21:13] Yeah, absolutely. He understood that aspect of. As well. I mean, if there's one person that I. There's one person that I genuinely admire and look up to my life, it is my husband.

Margi Dehlin [02:21:28] Yeah.

Appio Hunter [02:21:30] He has understood every single crazy thing that I've done. He has stood by my side no matter what. He's been there basically to help protect me for myself many times. You cannot ask for a better partner, a better husband, a better companion.

Margi Dehlin [02:21:52] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:21:55] That's love.

Margi Dehlin [02:21:56] I'm glad you found you. You deserve that as well. And I just want to say that, you know, that role of a child, taking care of a parent, it. It costs a child.

Appio Hunter [02:22:09] It does, it does. And emotionally it ended up. I realized after, when I started going to actual therapy because I was. I did not want to go back to therapy after the Experience with conversion therapy, I did not want to go back to actual therapy. When I finally started doing so, one of the main approaches that I took in order to kind of deal with that was IFS therapy, you know, internal family systems that helped me to really break down all my different parts, my different components, and being able to see how each. Each part of me stepped up to protect me one point or another.

Margi Dehlin [02:22:42] That's right.

Appio Hunter [02:22:43] Fortunately, now all of the. All of those parts are communicating. They're all in sync. Like, it's all wonderful. So. But yes. I mean, the child was the one who was almost always present, who was almost always there to. To protect myself, to do my mom's bidding, to be her support because my dad abandoned her and all that stuff. So there was that dynamic. There was that narrative that she needed somebody to look after her. And this is. Remind you again, this is a person who's, like, super independent. I'm not going to play that traditional Mormon wife role. And yet, because she had her own abandonment issues from when she was a child, that dynamic passed on to me. And I did not want to feed into her narrow. Her narrative of being abandoned by her husband, being abandoned by other important people in her life. Why would I do that to her?

Margi Dehlin [02:23:38] Yeah.

Appio Hunter [02:23:39] Yeah.

Coming Out Publicly and Leaving the Church

John Dehlin [02:23:40] So y' all moved here around 2012.

Appio Hunter [02:23:43] Does that sound like 2008, actually?

John Dehlin [02:23:44] What? What?

Appio Hunter [02:23:45] 2008.

John Dehlin [02:23:45] 2008.

Margi Dehlin [02:23:46] Yeah. So.

John Dehlin [02:23:47] And that's when you had to come out again to your mom or 2010. So you. You and your husband lived here two years near your mom and continued hiding your partnership from her.

Appio Hunter [02:23:58] Exactly. We try to get our own place as fast as we could, which we did. And it would just, you know, but my mom, she obviously knew, but just didn't want to kind of. We did. Both of us were avoiding the car conversation.

John Dehlin [02:24:11] It's so wild that you like it. It has to be a. An organization is acting cult. Like if you have to hide your spouse from your parent. Yeah. I mean, that's just a fact. Yep.

Appio Hunter [02:24:26] That is absolutely 100 true.

John Dehlin [02:24:30] So for two years, y' all live in Utah, hiding that you're together from your mom, and then you have to come out or did you get caught or. No.

Appio Hunter [02:24:38] It's one of those situations where I finally am just like, no, I'm not going to hide.

Margi Dehlin [02:24:43] Yeah.

Appio Hunter [02:24:44] Him anymore.

Margi Dehlin [02:24:45] Right. You hit a. You hit a. I had a point.

Appio Hunter [02:24:48] Exactly. And it was. It was a. It was a time when, you know, we were. We oftentimes would know. Take her out on the weekends to show she wasn't Sitting at home by herself or whatever. My mom was very active. I mean, she had a very big yard. It was kind of the end for a long time as the envy of the neighborhood, because that was her therapy. Her plants, her flowers, her. Everything was her therapy. So she was always out there working. But just to kind of help her get out, I. You know, we would take her out periodically, and one of these times we wanted to go out, she always, like, insisted she had to be on the front. You know, on the front seat. And one time it's just like, no, my husband's in the front seat. And she's just like, well, where am I. I gonna sit? You're sitting in the back. And she just started to kind of go off. I'm like, okay, well, if you want to stay, that's fine. So she's having this epic meltdown on the driveway, and we just go, yeah. And my husband's like, I'm proud of you. I'm proud of you. So that's when I'm like, yeah, I'm not doing this anymore. We're not. We're not playing this game anymore.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:55] And.

Appio Hunter [02:25:56] And just like the first time, lots of drama and everything else. And my mom did some. My husband will not tell me what actually happened, but she apparently did some really horrible things to him.

John Dehlin [02:26:08] Really horrible things.

Appio Hunter [02:26:12] He did some things to kind of annoy her, too. For instance, when we were.

John Dehlin [02:26:19] Again.

Appio Hunter [02:26:19] We found ourselves in a situation where we needed to. We were in between housing. We needed to stay with her again temporarily while we were, you know, figuring. Figuring out our housing situation. And so my. He decided to get me a dog as a. You know, as a Christmas gift to annoy my mom because she did not want a dog in the house. So it's like, okay. So he had his little ways of. It's like, fine.

Margi Dehlin [02:26:51] Some passive aggressive.

Appio Hunter [02:26:52] There was some passive aggressiveness there, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:26:54] Yes, for sure.

John Dehlin [02:26:55] For sure.

Appio Hunter [02:26:56] And he. He was upfront about me, with me, about the whole thing.

Margi Dehlin [02:27:00] Yeah.

Appio Hunter [02:27:01] But so anyway, what's really funny is that when they first met each other, they adored each other. Absolutely adored each other. Then, you know, when we came out here and there's that really awful dynamic, they. My husband started to realize that there's a lot more layers to my mom than. Than he realized.

John Dehlin [02:27:21] She knew him as a roommate or a friend. Exactly.

Margi Dehlin [02:27:24] And also, like, I don't know if I'm reading. Tell me if I'm reading too much in. But, like, it does sound like your role was as a. As a child to Kind of be a man, be the man of the house for her. As independent as she was, your role was very much at. Which would make her your number one person. Yep. So then perhaps she could also feel competitive or like she was being replaced. Like someone else was more important to you, and that could elicit. I'm just saying.

Appio Hunter [02:28:00] You nailed it. Absolutely.

Margi Dehlin [02:28:02] Emotions.

Appio Hunter [02:28:03] Some very strong emotions. And spot on. Yes.

Margi Dehlin [02:28:07] Okay.

Appio Hunter [02:28:07] That's exactly what the dynamic was.

John Dehlin [02:28:11] So.

Appio Hunter [02:28:12] So fast forward to, you know, us telling my mom what's going on and so forth. Again, she had several. We have several confrontations. I held my ground. I'm like, I'm not doing this anymore. I'm going to live authentically. And so we did. And there was always some tension that was there, but eventually she just started to accept him as being part of our lives. And what's very interesting is that my mom ended up developing vascular dementia towards the end of her life, which kind of exacerbated many of the underlying psychological challenges that she had, which, of course, because of my personal dynamic with her, made it very, very challenging for me to deal with the dementia.

Margi Dehlin [02:29:01] Yeah.

Appio Hunter [02:29:01] And it was my husband who actually stepped in to help her to deal with the worst of it.

Margi Dehlin [02:29:10] Wow.

Appio Hunter [02:29:10] Yeah. And he was working as. He was working at a nursing home, so he was exposed to it every day. So he had very quickly developed those skills, but it was always an innate part of him anyway.

Margi Dehlin [02:29:22] Wow, that's special. Yeah, that's really special.

Appio Hunter [02:29:25] So while I was kind of dealing with my. All of the things that were coming up, because that were all the stuff I kept inside that were. I was dealing with that trauma.

Margi Dehlin [02:29:35] Yeah. They're coming to the surface.

Appio Hunter [02:29:37] They're all starting to come to the surface. Through her period of. Of. Of her dementia and everything, he was one who stepped up again. Somebody who has. He just embodies.

Margi Dehlin [02:29:50] Yeah.

Appio Hunter [02:29:51] Unconditional love. I mean, just a walking expression of love.

Margi Dehlin [02:29:54] Wow.

Appio Hunter [02:29:55] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:29:55] Yeah. That's really something.

Appio Hunter [02:29:57] Yeah. He's very special. He's very, very special.

John Dehlin [02:30:01] That reminds me of Carolyn Pearson taking care of her ex husband, Jared, as he was dying of aids. Like someone who you could say hurt you, but you're there for them until the end.

Appio Hunter [02:30:16] Yeah. And that was. That was the dynamic that I witnessed. And I was just so grateful. Yeah, I'm so grateful because I don't know how I would have endured that, honestly. Yeah, honestly.

John Dehlin [02:30:29] So that was.

Appio Hunter [02:30:29] That kind of like closes that particular circle of the dynamic of me coming out a second time right to my mom and having to deal with all that for sure. And in the meantime, you know, my dad is still kind of there in the background. He, at this point, is not doing so well. He had moved to Idaho Falls, and he was in Idaho Falls. She was staying in an assisted living facility there. And he met Ivan several times. And again, I just. Because I'd never come out to him. Just. He was. This is my good friend. Then one time when my dad called me up, it's like, oh, I met this wonderful woman. She's. I think she'd be great for you, and so forth. I'm like, okay, well, here we go. So I told my dad, you know, I'm already in a relationship. And his response is really. I'm like, yes. You already know him. Wait, him? Yes. Said my husband's name, and he's like, wait, he's a man? I'm like, yes. And the issue is, so. And just what I expected, because by this point, I had actually re baptized my dad into the church, even though I was. I was. But, you know, years ago, maybe about 10 years before, he wanted me to. To re. Baptize him. And even though I wasn't active, I agreed to do so.

Margi Dehlin [02:31:52] So after being excommunicated, he wanted to rejoin.

Appio Hunter [02:31:56] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [02:31:56] Wow. And you were the one to rebaptize him. Okay.

Appio Hunter [02:32:00] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [02:32:01] Significant.

Appio Hunter [02:32:02] Very significant.

John Dehlin [02:32:05] So

Appio Hunter [02:32:07] he, you know, did the whole. After we hung up, about 20 minutes later, he calls up and is just like, I'm gonna call on you to repent. And so I just, like, I have been building up to this conversation for my entire life, and I'm going to have it, and I'm not going to feel bad about it. And so I said, you know, dad, forgive me if I say this to you, and please don't take it the wrong way, but you have been absent in my entire life. You do not have the right. You do not have the right to call me to repentance when you were absent the whole time.

Margi Dehlin [02:32:45] Yeah.

Appio Hunter [02:32:46] I love you. You are my father. I will be always grateful that you were the one who brought me into this world. I would not be here if it weren't for you.

Margi Dehlin [02:32:53] Right.

Appio Hunter [02:32:54] But if, as an absent father, you do not have that right. So that was that. And then just a few weeks before he passed away, one of my last conversations with him, he said, say hi to Ivan for me.

Margi Dehlin [02:33:14] Nice.

Appio Hunter [02:33:15] And that was his way of acknowledging.

John Dehlin [02:33:18] That's your husband.

Margi Dehlin [02:33:19] Yeah. Yeah.

Appio Hunter [02:33:21] That was his way of acknowledging him.

Margi Dehlin [02:33:23] Yeah.

Appio Hunter [02:33:24] Yeah. So. Yeah. So everything ended up very positively with my family, my parents. But then the journey continues. Because all of the trauma, everything that I kept buried.

John Dehlin [02:33:39] Yeah.

Appio Hunter [02:33:40] All that compartmentalism, all the compartmentalizing finally started to uncompartmentalize.

John Dehlin [02:33:45] Yeah. That stuff doesn't just. Where it did disappear, it doesn't just dissolve.

Margi Dehlin [02:33:49] It comes for you.

John Dehlin [02:33:50] You have to unwire all that conditioning and trauma.

Appio Hunter [02:33:53] Exactly. I did. Exactly. Because then what happened? Because I had no. I didn't have anybody else in my life to. To fear of upsetting except for my husband.

John Dehlin [02:34:03] Yeah, your parents are gone.

Appio Hunter [02:34:04] They're gone. So who's the next person on the list? Who's the next closest to me? It's my husband. So then I start living in fear of all of his reactions and everything else. And that just created a lot of tension between us. Because before, he's always directed elsewhere.

Margi Dehlin [02:34:18] Sure. Yeah.

Appio Hunter [02:34:21] And then in 2022, everything started to really bubble up.

John Dehlin [02:34:25] Up.

Appio Hunter [02:34:26] By the end of 2222, I was in pretty bad shape. And then, I mean, I was really unwell, psychologically. I was really, really unwell. Then late January 2023, it all just came to a head. In the space of about 10 days, my dog passed away. I ended up having to quit my job because I was just so in such bad shape. And Ivan and I temporarily separated. And that's 2023 is what I call my dark year of the soul.

John Dehlin [02:35:03] Dark night of the soul.

Appio Hunter [02:35:04] Darker of the soul. Exactly. And I spent that year. I won't go into much detail about that year, except to say that I spent that year trying to figure myself out. I was on multiple road trips. And finally, at the end of that year, my husband and I both refer to it as. I was just. I was on a trip. You know, we don't refer to it as a time of separation or anything. We were just. I was just on a trip. We finally reunited the day after my mom's birthday. Funny enough, December 29th of that year, we finally reunited. And two years ago, right? Yeah, yeah, exactly two years ago. And that's when the real work of reconstructing my life really began. That's when I started to really, finally understand, because everything that had come up was just so horrible. And I actually had watched your. Your interview on the bite model, actually, with Stephen Hassan. Exactly, Stephen Hassan. I even started to read his book. I'm like, it's a little too dry for me. But I got the ass out of it. And really, it's just kind of helped me understand the dynamics that really went into what happened with me in my life.

John Dehlin [02:36:37] And because you were under undue influence.

Margi Dehlin [02:36:39] Yeah, yeah, yes.

John Dehlin [02:36:40] By a. By an organization that.

Appio Hunter [02:36:42] Yeah, yeah, exactly. It was. I mean, yes, I could have chosen to. To. To walk away at any time, but I didn't think I really had that choice.

Margi Dehlin [02:36:55] Yeah.

Appio Hunter [02:36:56] Again, that undue influence was like, I don't really have that choice. So I walked away in the best way I could, which was, okay, I'll still keep believing, but I stopped going to church. I will. You know, I. Up to. Up to then. I still identified as Mormon. And so finally, when everything just, like,

Margi Dehlin [02:37:16] blew up,

Appio Hunter [02:37:20] you know, in metaphysical circles, I sometimes say, I know the universe will give you a nudge, then a tap, then a shove, and then finally we'll take a. A sledgehammer to. To your head. I. I just went nuclear. You know, I just skipped all of it, and I just went nuclear. And so I started the work of reconstructing the two, you know, cbt, ifs, you know, internal family systems, and then the emdr.

Margi Dehlin [02:37:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:37:50] These are forms of therapy for those who don't know.

Appio Hunter [02:37:52] Exactly. So those are all forms of therapy. And the. If the IFS therapy and the MDR therapy were perhaps the two most effective. I mean, I really unpacked a lot of stuff, and what I found was so beautiful, particularly about the EMA Dr. Therapy, is because it really did help me disassociate so many of the traumatic experiences from my life.

Margi Dehlin [02:38:13] Right.

Appio Hunter [02:38:13] And be able to process things in a very, very healthy way.

Margi Dehlin [02:38:17] Yeah.

Appio Hunter [02:38:17] Many of the fears that I. That had once plagued me, they're not even issues anymore. The fears of, you know, the need to. Please. No, I'll stand. You know, I'd be happy to help you out, but I. I will have my boundaries.

Margi Dehlin [02:38:32] Yeah.

Appio Hunter [02:38:32] Because before there were no boundaries at all. So I'm able to speak up for myself. I'm able to have my boundaries. I'm able to say, this is me. Take it or leave it. If you don't like it, well, okay, that's your problem. I'm good.

John Dehlin [02:38:46] So the people pleaser got put in its place. Yeah.

Appio Hunter [02:38:49] I mean, they still have residue. Every once in a while that pops up.

Margi Dehlin [02:38:53] Yeah. It's like a part. Yeah. Yeah. Of you.

Appio Hunter [02:38:56] Exactly. And it will always be a part of me. I now identify as a recovering Mormon, very much so, because I think I will be in recovery for the rest of my life.

Margi Dehlin [02:39:08] Yeah.

Appio Hunter [02:39:09] Here's the interesting thing. I have. No, I don't harbor any sort of resentment or anger toward the institution or even though I see the harm that the institution does, I will Stand up and I will speak up when I feel like it's really, really important to do so. And now sometimes I hear that there are criticisms from people, especially the Mormon apologists and some of the younger influencers nowadays. They, you know, I hear this periodically, which is people can leave the church, but they can't leave the church alone. That's why I think that this particular podcast and these stories are so important, because it's not about leaving the church alone. It's not like we can't leave the church alone. I left the church alone a long time ago. But people need to understand and realize that these stories are critical to understanding that every person's spiritual journey is a deeply personal one. There is no one size fits all approach. And just because somebody had this experience within the church doesn't mean that it is invalidating that we're not leaving the church alone. No, I'm sharing the story now because there, hopefully there might be some lives that could potentially be saved from it. Hopefully there are some people who can acknowledge and realize that it'll open up a dialogue. It'll, you know, maybe, just maybe somebody will say, okay, this was your journey. And that's what I'm speaking to, is my journey, my experience. Other people may have had beautiful and wonderful experiences and gay them, you know, yay for them, that they, that they still feel that, that embracing love within the church and, you know, that particular cocoon, if it works for them, fantastic. But don't invalidate all these other stories just because this is what we lived.

Margi Dehlin [02:41:03] Right?

Appio Hunter [02:41:03] This is what we lived.

Margi Dehlin [02:41:05] Yeah.

Appio Hunter [02:41:05] And so, yeah, I left the church alone. But the story still needs to be shared. It still needs to be told.

Margi Dehlin [02:41:12] Yeah. I do think there is an aspect too that can come up around erasure, this idea of like, as changes are made, or whether it be some, around something like garments or temple, things as changes are made, that oftentimes, you know, there's history, though, and there are people who lived that history. And so part of the power of your story is actually remembering where we've been and you being able to say, this is real, this happened. I am real. And that is so, so important. And it's so important to us that you're here and for us to be able to hear and say, you're real, you know, your story is real to us.

Appio Hunter [02:42:07] Thank you. Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:42:12] Yeah. And it's, I don't know how this is for you, but nowadays the church doesn't openly encourage conversion or reparative therapy. Yeah, the church doesn't seem to openly encourage mixed orientation marriages.

Appio Hunter [02:42:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:42:31] It doesn't seem to openly promote celibacy. And it doesn't even anymore publicly hold the position that it's a choice to be gay or even a sin to experience feelings of same sex attraction.

Appio Hunter [02:42:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:42:50] The church has retreated from all those positions it held for decades. And the only real, and it's even almost proud to say we love gay people, you know?

Appio Hunter [02:43:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:43:04] The only thing it would say is gay people have to live the same way as straight people. They can't have sex unless they're legally and lawfully married to a person of the opposite sex. Other than that, it would appear on the surface that the church loves and supports gay people.

Margi Dehlin [02:43:22] Yeah.

Appio Hunter [02:43:22] And, you know, it's like it's window dressing. You know, Mormon culture, especially Utah Mormon culture, is all about appearances. No, it's all about. It's like, oh, you know, it's like the perfect, you know, the perfect picture of the perfect family. And it's all about keeping up appearances and, and the whitewashing, the window dressing, the pretty flowers, the white picket fence, all of that. And so, yes, of course, you know, the church is going to want to put up, you know, the institution, because I do separate the people of the church from the institution itself. You know, the institution is going to want to do the same thing which everybody else does here, which is keep up appearances, put up a few, you know, positive statements, nice sounding statements, probably approved by no curtain McConaughey, more than likely. And just to make them seem as neutral and as affirming as possible, while under the surface, all of the ugliness remains, you know, if they were truly affirming of, of. Of, you know, committed couples, then why not amend the proclamation to the family? Because guess what? My husband came with two kids who have become my own sons. I have six grandkids now that I never, ever thought that I would actually be able to have. I never imagined that for myself. And yet they are such an integral part of my life. My oldest grandson, the first word I ever heard him say was actually my name. To have that, to have as normal a life as possible. The only thing that isn't, quote, unquote normal about it is the fact that I am married to a man, but I have my sons. They're my stepsons, but they are my sons. In my heart, they are my sons. My grandkids, they are. I am their grandfather. That is as normal a life as you can get.

Marriage, Faith Deconstruction, and New Spirituality

John Dehlin [02:45:26] So, yeah, tell us about your marriage. Because, you know, marriage was, wasn't actually legalized in the United states.

Appio Hunter [02:45:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:45:33] Until 2015 with Obergefellow.

Appio Hunter [02:45:35] Right. So even after that particular decision, you know, in fact, several of my friends outside of. Outside of Utah, when that decision came down, they're like, oh, my gosh, congratulations. Are you going to get married? And my husband talked about it, you know, that three week rush to go get married and everything. Exactly. Here in Utah.

John Dehlin [02:45:54] Yeah.

Appio Hunter [02:45:54] We're like, let's wait. Because I. I honestly, we both felt very strongly that it needs to be a settled question. So when the decision finally came down from the Supreme Court, that's when we decided that, yes, we would finally do it, but we were in no rush to get married or anything. We just were like, you know, it's for. For all intents and purposes, you're married. In fact, in. In Latin culture, it's not uncommon for unmarried couples to just say that they know, this is my wife, this is my husband.

John Dehlin [02:46:22] Y' all have been together, but for 15 years at that point, if I'm counting.

Appio Hunter [02:46:26] Right, Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:46:27] Okay.

Appio Hunter [02:46:27] Exactly. So. So yeah, we've been together for quite a long time, and. And we were committed. It was. It was a beautiful marriage. As with any married couple, you have your differences of opinion. You know, he's. We are opposites, definitely attract because we have very opposite personalities, and yet we complement each other so well. We never get, you know, tired of being with each other. We worked together up in Park City for the past two years after I came back from my dark year of the soul. You know, we went to work together, and it was just amazing and wonderful to be able to share that time. We love our road trips. We do not like to spend time away from each other. Honestly, it is the most wonderful, rewarding, beautiful relationship I could have ever imagined for myself.

Margi Dehlin [02:47:25] Yeah.

Appio Hunter [02:47:27] And that is for somebody who has endured a lot because I. I put him through so much.

John Dehlin [02:47:33] So were y' all formally married, and if so, when and where?

Appio Hunter [02:47:35] We were here in Salt Lake county, just set them up at the courthouse. You know, it's just very simple. We didn't. We only had two friends come by and do act as witnesses, but other than that, we didn't make a big deal of it or anything. That's not when we actually celebrate our anniversary at all. It's just. No, the day that we met is the island celebrate.

Margi Dehlin [02:47:55] But still, that. That ceremony, that decision, it was just for you.

Appio Hunter [02:47:59] It was just for us.

John Dehlin [02:48:01] What year? Just because I'm a nerd. Around what year?

Appio Hunter [02:48:04] Two years ago, actually.

John Dehlin [02:48:05] So 2023. Yeah.

Appio Hunter [02:48:07] That's when we formally legally.

John Dehlin [02:48:10] So after your vacation, after your trip, you got married.

Appio Hunter [02:48:14] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:48:15] Yep. That's nice. That's nice.

Margi Dehlin [02:48:17] Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:48:18] I like that a lot. Yeah. And were you at all surprised when the. The Supreme Court recently revisited Obergefell and decided not to strike it down?

Appio Hunter [02:48:32] I was surprised.

John Dehlin [02:48:34] Were you happy?

Appio Hunter [02:48:35] I was very happy. I was happy that Congress, in spite of its all current dysfunction, man, you know, pass asked something to say, okay, this is now law of the land. Because obviously with all the other craziness that's going on right now, it's like, well, no, Congress, Congress, Congress. Thank goodness Congress came through.

John Dehlin [02:48:52] Yeah.

Appio Hunter [02:48:52] For us.

John Dehlin [02:48:53] Or Supreme Court was Supreme Court that denied to take the. Correct to revisit. Yeah, correct. I don't mean to correct you, I just.

Margi Dehlin [02:49:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:49:00] Okay. And then you've already alluded to this, but I want to shine a light on it for just one second. Yeah. It's one thing to leave the church, it's another thing to process your faith deconstruction. And someone can go decades as what they consider to be a Jack Mormon or an inactive Mormon or just a Mormon who's not going to church. But that's different than unwinding the beliefs about God and Jesus and the atonement and the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith and the restoration and priesthood and, and the modern day prophet and all that. So when like it sounds like that happened in the past two years.

Appio Hunter [02:49:40] Pretty much, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:49:41] So how did you start, how did you start and follow that deconstruction process? Just because I think it's important.

Appio Hunter [02:49:48] Yeah, no, I think it's really important. I'm glad that you touched on that because my deconstruction process I think was a very unusual and strange path. It wasn't like there are a bunch of things that are. That were up on the shelf and the shelf finally broke. No, there were always things that I just knew was like, yeah, that doesn't make a lot of sense. I mean, for. Even when I was very active in the church, I knew that, you know, the word of wisdom came about because Emma Smith had complained about all the smoking, drinking and spitting on the floors and everything. So I knew that and I was okay with that. There were other things that again, I'm just like, yeah, probably not. But I can still continue to believe the deconstruction really started when I started to learn a lot about, you know, all of the other. Basically I did follow a lot of the early, the, the, the series that you did on the whole series of

John Dehlin [02:50:41] LDS discussions Discussions where we examine Mormons truth claims.

Appio Hunter [02:50:45] Exactly. So I'm like, okay, now this is all starting to make sense from my perspective. Why there are just questions that are in my mind. Why this note doesn't really make a lot of sense.

John Dehlin [02:50:55] The treasure digging, the first vision stuff, all of that stone in the hat, the Book of Mormon translation.

Appio Hunter [02:51:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:51:01] Joseph's polygamy, those types of things.

Appio Hunter [02:51:03] Exactly. But by that point, I pretty much already stopped believing a lot of like just the church stuff because my. My spiritual journey. So I continue to have that deeply affirming, beautiful connection with the divine.

John Dehlin [02:51:17] You write a metaphysical approach to spirituality.

Appio Hunter [02:51:20] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:51:20] What is that?

Appio Hunter [02:51:21] So for me, I kind of, you know, really kind of went off in like a new age direction for a while. So, you know, the. Just like referring to the universe. I couldn't say God at all for a long time. It's just like, no, no God. So for me it was more like a very affirming spiritual approach. There's the universe, there's the, you know, source, source, energy, whatever it is. That to me kind of helped me process things. But now I've kind of balanced out again that it's, it's. The metaphysical approach is more along the lines of understanding that where my. I'm responsible for every decision that I make and its consequences, for sure. But there is no angry God. Well, you know, standing out there waiting to zap me at any moment. What they're. All that there is as far as my spirituality is concerned is there's nothing but incredible love, unconditional love for every single one of us. And that one's relationship with the divine is a deeply personal journey. And that to try to say to everybody, no, oh no, you have to do this, you can't do this. To prescribe it to me is more along the lines of, I need you to feel better so I can. I need you to do this so that I can feel better.

Margi Dehlin [02:52:45] Yeah.

Appio Hunter [02:52:46] And I'm like, no, you know, you do you, I do me, we're going to get along just great. So that's kind of how I feel now. A lot of Eastern, you know, philosophies as well.

John Dehlin [02:52:59] What do you mean by that?

Appio Hunter [02:53:00] So, for instance, a lot of. No, Buddhist, you know, Buddhist philosophies, mindfulness, so forth.

John Dehlin [02:53:07] Secular Buddhism.

Appio Hunter [02:53:09] Yeah, secular Buddhism, exactly.

John Dehlin [02:53:10] So meditation.

Appio Hunter [02:53:12] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:53:12] Holding stories and labels and thoughts loosely. Contact with the present moment.

Appio Hunter [02:53:17] Impermanence.

Margi Dehlin [02:53:18] Impermanence, exactly. Yes.

Appio Hunter [02:53:20] Yeah, yeah. Impermanence is a big one.

John Dehlin [02:53:21] Are there books or podcasts that were helpful there for you?

Appio Hunter [02:53:24] Actually, yeah. The Secular Buddhism podcast with no Rochetta. Yeah, exactly.

Margi Dehlin [02:53:30] Yeah.

Appio Hunter [02:53:30] So I listened.

John Dehlin [02:53:30] He's a former listener. Mormon stories. I don't know if you know that.

Appio Hunter [02:53:33] Yes. Yeah. In fact, I actually saw that episode.

John Dehlin [02:53:35] Oh.

Appio Hunter [02:53:35] That's what got me turned on to his podcast. Yeah, so. So that was part of it. There was, you know, some. You know, some books that I read as well, mostly from kind of like in the. In the personal development realm that, again, kind of aligned with, you know, my. For my personal version of spirituality that I was constructing. And so it's just basically bits and pieces from here and there, from whatever seems to work for me, whatever seems to resonate with me, whatever lights me up inside is what I incorporate. And so for me, what it boils down to is, my path is, listen to my heart, do what brings me the greatest joy, because if I do that, then I will be doing my greatest good. I will be able to have the best impact I can. Because. Because I am approaching this from a place of absolute joy and excitement.

Self-Acceptance, Family Relationships, and Healing

John Dehlin [02:54:32] And what about self acceptance and brokenness?

Appio Hunter [02:54:36] Still a journey. Still a journey, for sure. But I would say that much further along, I can accept myself, I can love myself. Even though it's difficult for me to say at times, I do love myself, I can see myself as being whole and complete. So, yes, that is genuine and authentic, and I don't need to seek that outside validation anymore.

John Dehlin [02:55:02] And you write in your outline, I'm not broken, and I never was broken.

Appio Hunter [02:55:08] Yeah, that's very much where I'm at now. Yeah, I can. I can see. I never was broken. All this narrative. No, you need to be repaired. All of those things just. It's fallen by the wayside. It's. It's. I look at it as. These were other broken people who were trying to feel good about, you know, they're trying. They were. They were coming from a place of wanting to help. Okay, I get it. I understand. But in the process of wanting to help, they did so much harm. So much harm. I understand that and I can forgive that. Because for me, if I don't forgive and if I don't reach a place of understanding, it's. The way I look at it is. Is, you know, I'm taking the poison, but I'm expecting the other person to die, basically, so. So I can forgive. That's not necessarily. That doesn't mean that I'm going to let go of any anger that I might harbored. That doesn't mean I'm not going to have boundaries. I'm like no, that door is closed permanently.

Margi Dehlin [02:56:07] Yeah.

Appio Hunter [02:56:08] So, yeah, I mean, there have been, you know, people and things that I have situations that I had to completely close the door, seal it off. It's like, no, no more. I'm not going to. I'm not going to be, you know, subject myself to. To any sort of abuse, emotional, physical or otherwise. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:56:24] And what about your relationship with your brother and your extended Mormon family,

Appio Hunter [02:56:31] The Hunter? I don't interact with it with the extended Mormon family as frequently as I would like that I can say that the Hunter represent what the church could potentially be. They have always accepted me. No matter what they've accepted. They've accepted Ivan. In fact, I remember when my dad passed away and we were there in Idaho Falls for his funeral when we were having the portion of people coming by to pay their respects to, view and so forth. One of my cousins, she came up to Ivan and she gave him a big hug, and she's like, I'm so happy that you're in Appio's life. I'm so grateful for you, and I'm so happy you're in his life.

John Dehlin [02:57:25] He's a Mormon cousin.

Appio Hunter [02:57:26] He's a Mormon cousin in Idaho. In Idaho.

John Dehlin [02:57:30] I love it.

Appio Hunter [02:57:33] Not too far away from byu, Idaho. All of my family up there, all of my family in eastern Idaho, all of the Hunter, they are beautiful examples of. Of love and compassion. They really can't. They are examples of what? Of the potential the church has that has. They've never reached. And my brother, again, supportive. Supportive. Amazing. Wonderful. I could not ask for a better brother.

John Dehlin [02:58:14] You still in the church?

Appio Hunter [02:58:15] Still is.

John Dehlin [02:58:16] Wow.

Appio Hunter [02:58:16] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:58:18] See, that's the thing. If I were to say, has the Mormon Church gotten better? The Mormon people have gotten better on LGBT issues between 30, 40 years ago and today. It's just undeniable, Right?

Appio Hunter [02:58:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:58:30] And as go the members, so goes the church. Like, the church will keep getting better on this issue because more and more members are becoming healthy on this issue.

Appio Hunter [02:58:43] Yes, they are. They are. And I think it's a beautiful thing.

John Dehlin [02:58:48] Yeah.

Appio Hunter [02:58:48] I mean, I personally would. I mean, there was a time when I said, you know what? I could see myself being Mormon again and being active in the church again if this, you know, were completely embraced and accepted and so forth. But then I look at it a little bit further as I've been on my. My spiritual journey, I realized it's like, no, there's still too many. There's too many. Too many constrictions, you know?

Margi Dehlin [02:59:09] Yep, I hear that.

John Dehlin [02:59:11] Yeah.

Appio Hunter [02:59:12] But to See a healthier church. Heck, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:59:15] Yeah.

Appio Hunter [02:59:16] That would be amazing and wonderful, and yes, it could do so much good. But just for me personally, this is the only path. No, there's every path. I like the gnostic approach.

John Dehlin [02:59:27] Your.

Appio Hunter [02:59:28] Your relationship is with God, no one else.

John Dehlin [02:59:30] Yeah. So, I mean, I think I. I think what happened was the Internet forced the church to fix its broken messaging around LGBT people. And by the church fixing its broken. Broken by the church acquiescing to the Internet and fixing its broken messaging around LGBTQ people, that allowed the members to be more affirming and supportive of LGBTQ people.

Appio Hunter [02:59:58] Yes. Yeah, I. I 100 agree with that. Because before the messaging was. Was improved, there was a lot of just black and white thinking.

John Dehlin [03:00:11] Yeah.

Appio Hunter [03:00:12] And the only people who did accept the, you know, who. Who accepted their children, who were affirming towards LGBTQ people were those who decided that their relationship with their children was more important than the church's dogma and. And doctrine.

John Dehlin [03:00:29] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Appio Hunter [03:00:31] So, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:00:33] And now people who care about the church more than their children can also love their children. Yes.

Appio Hunter [03:00:40] What's there not to celebrate?

John Dehlin [03:00:43] So this has been so wonderful. I'll just say really quickly, one of the reasons we picked you and I picked you, in addition to the fact that you just did a lovely application and a lovely video audition video, was that I was, you know, because obviously when I dropped into the LGBT stuff in the 2000s and then did my PhD research, I'm thinking about these Evergreen, you know, Mormons of the 80s and 90s, you know, all through the 2000s and 2010s, but in some sense, so many of them were, of course, sort of Lost Boys. Right?

Appio Hunter [03:01:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:01:23] They washed out of the church in the 70s, 80s and 90s, and they weren't sticking around to watch or listen to Mormon themed podcasts.

Margi Dehlin [03:01:32] And some didn't make it.

John Dehlin [03:01:33] It. A lot didn't make it. Yeah, yeah, thank you. And that's totally true. So in. In some sense, I'm giving a decade or more of my life to try to improve things that harmed your people of your. Your generation and previous ones without having really talked to or met many of you. Right, right, right. And so when you apply, I'm like, whoa, Appio. Like, he knew Nicolosi. He, you know, was at the Evergreen conferences. Like, we gotta bring this guy back and have him tell a story. But what the freak is he doing listening to Mormon stories? Like, these dudes don't watch or listen to Mormon stories. They moved on or passed away. So anyway, that's a long way of saying, I'm so delighted that one of you. I say you circle back to Mormon stories. That just makes me so happy.

Appio Hunter [03:02:30] Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:02:31] And then so it's just a pleasure to. To hear the story from someone who lived it because my knowledge of it was mostly academic.

Appio Hunter [03:02:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:02:40] Or historical, so that's lovely. But then also, Margi and I had this idea of ending all Mormon stories episodes with a list of questions. And one of the questions is, name a book or a podcast or a TV show that you've enjoyed lately. And the first one on your list was Mormon Stories. Right. So that's. That makes me super happy. What else?

Reflections, Recommendations, and Closing Thoughts

Margi Dehlin [03:03:04] That did not come into the selection process

John Dehlin [03:03:09] together. It brought us together.

Margi Dehlin [03:03:11] It just brought us joy, right?

John Dehlin [03:03:14] Yeah, but it brought us together. So aside from morbid stories, what podcasts have been meaningful to you?

Appio Hunter [03:03:21] So there's one that I've been listening to recently, it's called Next Level Soul. And it just kind of encompasses the entire breadth of the whole human experience and, you know, spirituality in general. And I just really, really kind of gotten into it and enjoyed it a lot, particularly interviews with near death experiencers. It's really fascinating to see how similar those stories really are. So that's been fun. As far as book that I'm reading, I started reading rereading the entire Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan when they came out with a series on Amazon. I'm like, ooh, that reminds me, I think I want to go back and start rereading the series. It's been kind of like here and there, working my way through it, but enjoying it. And then as far as TV show.

John Dehlin [03:04:13] You're a UFO guy.

Appio Hunter [03:04:14] I'm totally a UFO guy.

John Dehlin [03:04:16] Skinwalker Ranch. Oh, my gosh. I've never seen it, but, oh, I've

Appio Hunter [03:04:20] gotten so sucked into it. It's. It's fascinating.

John Dehlin [03:04:22] And it's got a Utah tie.

Appio Hunter [03:04:24] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:04:25] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:04:25] Is that the Winter neighbor?

John Dehlin [03:04:26] Yes, that's the one.

Margi Dehlin [03:04:28] Okay.

John Dehlin [03:04:28] Talks about.

Appio Hunter [03:04:29] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:04:30] But also Grace and her boyfriend came out, you know, like. Yeah, it's a. It's a big thing. Skinwalker Ranch.

Appio Hunter [03:04:35] Oh, yeah, yeah, it's. It's fascinating. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [03:04:39] It's like seven or eight seasons now.

Appio Hunter [03:04:41] Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. I've also enjoyed watching Ancient Aliens, honestly. But, you know, not because it's like, I really believe all of that stuff. It's more along the lines of really fascinating questions about how is that all these ancient cultures, all these similar things all at the same time.

John Dehlin [03:04:55] Yeah.

Appio Hunter [03:04:55] Like legit.

John Dehlin [03:04:58] So have you Been to Skinwalker Ranch? Have you taken the tour?

Appio Hunter [03:05:00] I have not.

John Dehlin [03:05:01] It's just like a couple hours drive. What are you doing?

Appio Hunter [03:05:04] I know, exactly. Maybe I can wave as I'm heading on over to no Vernal because my husband wants to actually go see Dinosaur National Monument.

Margi Dehlin [03:05:12] Okay.

Appio Hunter [03:05:12] We'll wave on our way past or something.

John Dehlin [03:05:15] I think you've answered the question of someone you admire.

Appio Hunter [03:05:18] It would be my husband. Yeah, absolutely. Yes.

John Dehlin [03:05:23] And then things lighting you up lately?

Appio Hunter [03:05:29] I can't remember what I asked.

John Dehlin [03:05:31] You put a new job.

Appio Hunter [03:05:32] Right? Yes, a new job. I'm going to Peru in three days. And then.

John Dehlin [03:05:40] What a way to celebrate your Mormon stories interview.

Appio Hunter [03:05:42] Right, exactly.

Margi Dehlin [03:05:43] I know. I was teasing him. I was like, do the Mormon stories interview and then leave the country.

Appio Hunter [03:05:47] Don't go to Disneyland, go to Disneyland. No, Peru, exactly. We've actually. So I've been down there three times now. This will be our fourth trip down there together.

Margi Dehlin [03:05:56] Lovely.

Appio Hunter [03:05:57] It's wonderful to have somebody from the country to be able to show me around, around and everything. The food is. Oh, my gosh, it's amazing. But, you know, the first trip down there, he surprised me with a trip to see the Nazca lines that was amazing because that had always been on my bucket list of places to go see. Or the NASCAR lines. And then the following year, for my birthday, he surprised me with another trip to Machu Picchu. We're both very nerdy when it comes to archaeological stuff. So Peru is. Is like the place to go for a lot of. No. At least in the Americas. It's Mexico approved. It's one of those two. Yeah. And so, you know, just love it. You know, we've seen a lot of different places down there and gone to a lot of, you know, it's so fun. So I'm. This time around, it's just going to be hanging out with family.

John Dehlin [03:06:45] And here's the most important question of all.

Appio Hunter [03:06:46] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:06:47] Have you had a pisco sour? I have.

Appio Hunter [03:06:50] I have.

John Dehlin [03:06:51] We have friends with.

Margi Dehlin [03:06:52] We have watched people enjoy.

John Dehlin [03:06:55] We've never had that, but we have friends who went to Peru and they came back. That's all they could talk about. Oh, pisco sours.

Margi Dehlin [03:07:01] We had some book club.

Appio Hunter [03:07:02] Oh, they're so good beverages.

John Dehlin [03:07:03] They flatten people.

Appio Hunter [03:07:04] Oh, they will. I don't drink, but I'm not afraid of, you know, testing something or try something out.

John Dehlin [03:07:10] Well, if you had a good pisco sour, you drink or at least you have.

Appio Hunter [03:07:14] Exactly. So, yeah, not often, let's put it that way.

John Dehlin [03:07:18] It's a It's an alcoholic beverage for Lisa.

Appio Hunter [03:07:21] Yeah. And, yes, it's very good.

John Dehlin [03:07:26] All right, well, Appio Hunter, what an important and delightful Mormon story. Would you agree, Margi?

Margi Dehlin [03:07:35] Yes. So, so grateful for you.

John Dehlin [03:07:38] And we did it in three hours. Ish.

Appio Hunter [03:07:40] Amazing.

John Dehlin [03:07:40] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast and for sharing your story. This is an important part of history. And the only other thing I'll say is that whether it's Ty Mansfield or Josh and Lolly Weed or David Matheson, like the church has and continues to parade poster boys and poster women for whatever LGBTQ slash lifestyle that wants.

Appio Hunter [03:08:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:08:19] And what they do, what they never do, is they'll use these poster men for their purposes. But then once they leave the church, they never go back to all the people who were influenced by those poster boys and say, hey, I know we use these people to advocate a lifestyle that we wanted to promote, but guess what? They've all left the church or admit now that the lifestyles we were advocating didn't work. And so for me, maybe the most important final message is, you know, Mormon Church, please look at the literal graveyard of poster boys and poster women for LGBT lifestyles that you've paraded across generations without owning up to and taking responsibility for the tens of thousands of lives and families that have been harmed by your usage of these poster boys and poster women. So please, someday be accountable for what you've done and find a new way without, you know, commandeering the. The lives of your vulnerable members, like Appio.

Appio Hunter [03:09:33] Yeah. Thank you. Amen to that.

John Dehlin [03:09:35] Right?

Appio Hunter [03:09:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:09:37] There's got to be a new way.

Appio Hunter [03:09:38] Yeah. There has to be. And I agree. I. I can see it eventually happening, and I think that the church will evolve away from being a place of. Of, you know, strict dogma. I hope that it will serve the community in the way that everybody hopes that it will. And know there are those who find the spiritual component comforting and fantastic. That's wonderful. But at the end of the day, I think honesty, integrity, accountability, which are all things I learned from the church that the institution itself doesn't practice. Sadly, I hope. I, too, hope that someday it will be that. And all they need to do is just look at the members to see that in motion and being lived day to day.

Margi Dehlin [03:10:25] So.

John Dehlin [03:10:26] All right.

Appio Hunter [03:10:26] All right.

John Dehlin [03:10:27] Well, thanks again, Appio.

Margi Dehlin [03:10:28] Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:10:29] Thanks, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [03:10:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:10:30] And thanks to all of you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Please subscribe to this channel. Please like it the episode. Please share it with friends and family. We love your comments on YouTube on Spotify, Apple Podcasts. Wherever you consume this content, you can also follow us on TikTok and Instagram and Facebook. We could not do this episode or these episodes without our donors. We don't do ads, we don't do product placement. Sorry, we do ads, but we don't do like commercial sponsorships. So we, we. 80 plus percent of our revenue is just the generous voluntary donations of our donors. It's giving time. It's Christmas, you know, Thanksgiving time. If you're not a. If you do donate to Mormon Stories, the Noble Stories foundation. Thank you. We couldn't do without you. If you don't donate. We lose dozens of monthly donors every month. So what you can do if you value this content and want to see continue is to go to MormonStories.org or MormonStories.org donate click on the donate button, become a monthly donor and we'll continue providing this content for as long as we have your support. We're super grateful to Julia and Brooklyn along with Margi, who do so much work behind the scenes to make all this possible. So thanks to them as well. Thanks to you, our viewers and listeners. Email us with feedback mormonstoriesmail.com and if you want to apply like Appio to be on Mormon Stories, we are always looking for new applicants. Margi and I review the applications every week. We're looking for great storytellers with great stories who really understand the Mormon Stories library and understand how the content will be useful or their stories will be useful to our audience today. So if you think you would have a story to tell that would be good for our audience, go to mormonstories.org apply fill out the application form. The most important part is a three minute video where you make your case and we'll review it and if we feel like it's a good fit, we will contact you. We'll also let you know. We'll do our best to let you know if we're not ready to have you tell your story at this time. But we're sorry, we can't take everyone who applies. We get over a thousand applicants each year for basically 50 slots. So I don't know, is that one out of 20? Something like that. We can't accept everyone, but we're always going to be pushing for the best applications we can find. So please apply. Be good to each other, be kind to each other, be bridge builders and peacemakers. And we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care everybody.

Appio Hunter [03:13:26] See you.

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