Ever wonder what happens when a faithful Mormon Bible scholar has a crisis of faith and steps away from the religion he dedicated his life to? David Bokovoy’s candid interview takes you on a riveting personal journey from staunch believer to “spiritual atheist.” He pulls no punches in describing how the Church’s controversial 2015 LGBTQ+ policy shattered his worldview, leading him to lose his testimony and leave Mormonism behind. With raw honesty and hard-won wisdom, he shares profound insights about the transformative power of education from his work in prison rehabilitation. He grapples with weighty questions of free will, authenticity, and human connection.
You’ll be captivated by his stories of finding the “Holy Ghost” outside of religion, confronting trauma through therapy, and continually evolving his understanding of truth. Brimming with thought-provoking perspectives on everything from ADHD to patriarchy to psychedelics, Bokovoy’s interview is a must-see for anyone on their own journey of self-discovery beyond rigid belief systems.
Episode Transcript
Host: John Dehlin · Guests: David Bokovoy, Margi Dehlin
This transcript is machine-generated and lightly edited for readability. The audio is authoritative. Please excuse occasional errors in names and spelling.
Welcome and Introduction to David Bokovoy Week
John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am your host, John Dehlin. It is March 6, 2024 and welcome to David Bachavoy Week on Mormon Stories podcast. How does that sound, David?
David Bokovoy [00:00:13] I didn't know I had a full week. John, that's great. Thank you so much.
John Dehlin [00:00:18] And Margi, it's good to have you here. Thanks for joining us, Margi.
Margi Dehlin [00:00:21] Yes, my pleasure.
John Dehlin [00:00:22] For those who are joining us midweek or mid episode, David Bacavoy definitely would easily be ranked as one of the top 10 most important interviews I've done on Mormon Stories. I'll just do a super quick recap. If you're watching this stuff linearly, you will know that what I did is I took like a three part interview of David's Mormon story that was recorded years ago on Mormon Stories way back in the archive. We munged them together as one episode and we just shared that on the previous episode. To kind of catch you up to speed on David's Mormon story, I'll have him recap it. But basically grew up in San Diego, served a mission, got married in the temple to Coco, became a CES instructor, ended up as the institute director, I believe, at Harvard and mit. Was it director or just teacher?
David Bokovoy [00:01:15] I was not the director, just an instructor.
John Dehlin [00:01:16] Instructor. Just an instructor of Harvard and MIT Mormon students. And eventually had the hopes to become a, you know, PhD at Brandeis. Right.
David Bokovoy [00:01:30] In Hebrew Bible in the ancient Near East.
John Dehlin [00:01:32] Yeah.
David Bokovoy [00:01:33] So, yeah.
John Dehlin [00:01:34] And the goal was to end up at byu.
David Bokovoy [00:01:36] Absolutely.
John Dehlin [00:01:37] To become.
David Bokovoy [00:01:39] Yeah. You know, people ask me about that and they, they wonder, okay, you went to Brandeis, it's historical criticism. You studied with David Wright, a very famous excommunicated Latter Day Saint. Why did you think that BYU would work out for you? And it is a great question, but the, the reality is, is that I was already employed by the. The Church's educational system is set up with two sections. Right. You have the CES is divided into seminaries and institutes, which I had been employed with for 18 years. And then the more academic side of CES, which was of course the Brigham Young University. So for me it was staying, it was just moving into a different section where I had always spent my career.
John Dehlin [00:02:21] That's a better framing.
David Bokovoy [00:02:22] Well, yeah, but that didn't work out and I'm so grateful it did not.
John Dehlin [00:02:27] Yeah, yeah. So anyway, go back and watch that first part with Dave. We may try and put together. He did an entire three part series on Mormon scripture and historical criticism, Old Testament, New Testament and Book of Mormon. It's all classic stuff. We're going to try and put that together as its own. Part two, in theory, this will be part three, which is sort of a catch up on David Bacavoi's life. What's been going on since his last interview. Marty and I have been talking about bringing some of the classic Mormon stories interviews back for updates. So this may represent kind of the first kind of where are they now with David Bacavoi? That's what this episode is going to be. And if that weren't enough, we're going to have at least another part, I guess that would be a part four where we talk about Isaiah and we tap into David's expertise as sort of an expert on Isaiah as it relates to Mormonism, which borrows from a book chapter that he published with a book which we'll talk about at the end
David Bokovoy [00:03:35] which is called, oh, the new one, Latter Day Saints and the Bible. I have two chapters in that. It came out last year. Pentateuch. Pentateuch, yeah. First five books of the Hebrew Bible or Old Testament and then I did the chapter on prophetic literature. So it ties in with the Isaiah material and has been a passion of mine for decades now.
John Dehlin [00:03:59] And we'll be talking about not only, you know, Isaiah and the Book of Mormon, but of course deutero Isaiah, which speaks to Book of Mormon historicity, but also why, I want to know why Joseph Smith cared about Isaiah in the first place because clearly he cared about it. And we may even talk about Avraham Gileadi and the one mighty and strong as the Apartment. So welcome to David Abacavoy Week. Welcome to this sort of where are they now with David Debakavoy in today's episode. I appreciate your patience with this long intro. We're going to be talking about mental health, fitness, wellness, adhd, child rearing, marriage and so much more. Just to kind of as all patriarchy, deconstructing the patriarchy. So many aspects of David's journey. So we just like to let people know that ahead of time so they can know the cool things that we're going to be talking about.
David Bokovoy [00:04:58] Oh, thank you.
John Dehlin [00:04:59] To leave any big teaser out. Do we get most of the teasers?
David Bokovoy [00:05:03] No, I don't think so. I think that that sounds like. That sounds like quite the show.
John Dehlin [00:05:06] And you may even sing for us.
David Bokovoy [00:05:08] I'd love to if I can survive. Yeah, I enjoy sharing music for sure.
John Dehlin [00:05:13] All right, Margi, anything you want to say before we jump in?
Margi Dehlin [00:05:15] Just welcome and thank you for being Here.
David Bokovoy [00:05:17] Oh, thank you, Margi. I. I love you and John very much. You're such wonderful humans who do so much good. I. I hear regularly about the help that you've provided through these podcasts and through thrive with people, connecting with one another and establish community. And I am very grateful for this chance to be able to share some follow ups that I hope will help others with their own journey.
Margi Dehlin [00:05:40] Yeah. Thank you. Absolutely.
John Dehlin [00:05:43] And this is your jam, Margi. The reconstruction is your jam.
Margi Dehlin [00:05:45] It is my jam.
John Dehlin [00:05:46] Yeah. So we're grateful to have you along. Okay. So, David, I guess I gave a piecemeal review of your long form interview on Mormon stories from several years back. Is there anything else you want to sort of say in terms of a recap before we just jump into kind of life since that interview?
Reflecting on Six Years Since the Last Interview
David Bokovoy [00:06:13] Oh, I thought that was a good recap. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know that I feel like. Well, it was six years ago, right, that we did that almost now. And it's been a transformative journey over the past six years. So I have. I don't think a lot about Latter Day Saint issues very often anymore. In fact, I actually went through a purging process where I really gave away or, you know, almost all of my books on Mormonism, hundreds of them. So, yeah, it's not something I don't typically listen to podcasts or. I've kind of moved in a different trajectory and path since then, so.
John Dehlin [00:07:00] That sounds healthy.
David Bokovoy [00:07:02] I hope so.
John Dehlin [00:07:03] Yeah. Yeah. So like, pre. Kind of like predating your past episode, you would have spent a lot of time on the apologetic boards, both as a church employee defending the church, but then eventually probably feeling differently. We did talk about your faith crisis in depth, so please check that out in the past episode. And I think at the time you're not being hired by BYU was a HeartBR.
David Bokovoy [00:07:32] Oh, it was at that time the most difficult thing I'd ever gone through. Yeah, it was very difficult.
John Dehlin [00:07:38] And that's all essential viewing, so go watch that.
David Bokovoy [00:07:41] And I have a follow up to that that we'll jump into. I'm excited to share that connects with therapy?
John Dehlin [00:07:46] Yeah.
Giving Away Books and Leaving Mormonism Behind
Margi Dehlin [00:07:47] Can I ask you a quick question about when you gave away all those books, you know what it felt like for you to do that? If it felt like symbolic, like saying goodbye to a past self or like, what's the framing of that and what was the experience? Actually?
David Bokovoy [00:08:07] Thank you. What a great question. To understand that, I would have to share that I'm a person of great passion and it connects with adhd, which we're gonna talk about later on. But as an ADHD person, I have a lot of passion. And ADHD is sometimes misunderstood. It's like, well, attention deficit, meaning that you cannot pay attention. But it's actually kind of the opposite. ADHD has been described as something like. And I think it's a good description. It's like having a mind that you walk into a room and there are a hundred televisions playing at the same time on full volume. And that's kind of what it's like to be in an ADHD person's mind. And I've studied a lot and I've come to understand myself, but. But it's not attention deficit, it's attention hyperactivity. So once you obtain a passion, the person becomes hyper focused and it becomes problematic for relationships, lives, and other pursuits. But when I returned from my mission, I remember as a missionary, I would wake up, I think I shared this. I would wake up early to try to read whatever books I wanted to. Discourses of Brigham Young and Doctrines of Salvation and Going through everything. And as much as I loved the mission, I envisioned the time when I would return and spend hours and hours studying Mormon scripture, Mormon history. And so I went and worked part time at a used Mormon bookstore. This was not a nice thing to do as a young, married, returned missionary, but I would work part for part credit. And I started to obtain this massive library. And then, of course, as the years went on as a religious educator, it grew and grew and grew. And it was. These books were always prominently featured in our home. And it was just. It was something that meant a lot to me for a lot of years. And so it took time. You know, it took time. At first I got rid of some, you know, that I didn't want anymore, and then a little bit more. And then finally it was, with my wife's inspiration, she just said, you know, I think, you know, well, we walk into the house and we see all of these books and we've all gone a different direction now. It can be difficult to see this. And once she shared that, I recognized that it was time, that I don't foresee myself ever getting back into the fray, so to speak, or into jumping into these issues in any depth. So it was a process for sure. And it felt good. It felt good. It still feels good.
Margi Dehlin [00:10:54] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:10:56] Actually, John Larsen, who was like the coast of Mormon Expression podcast also who was a participant on Mormon Stories for several years, he just stepped down as kind of a podcast host on Mormon Stories with the same sort of idea of it's just really time for him to move on. And he also has this huge library of books that he's trying to figure out what to do with. He said if there's some wealthy Mormon that wants to buy them all, he's got quite a library, too. So you're not alone. You and John Larsen.
David Bokovoy [00:11:28] Good. And I should clarify, I didn't get rid of them all. I've kept some. Some historical ones that I do care about, mainly from people like Dan Vogel and Brent Metcalf and others.
John Dehlin [00:11:40] Yeah. It might be worth just also touching on as just a jumping off point. As I recall, your faith crisis was heavily interwoven with the LDS Church's not just Prop 8, but also the November 2015 policy and its reversal.
Marriage, Prop 8, and the Church's LGBTQ Policies
David Bokovoy [00:12:00] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:12:01] Maybe that's an important thing to reference, just because I think that might lead us down some other paths as well. Do you want to recap that at all for those.
David Bokovoy [00:12:11] For sure, yeah. That was really the biggest challenge that I'd ever faced in my life when that. First of all, yeah, the Prop 8 was very difficult for me, even though I was in Massachusetts at the time. My family from California was involved with it in one way or another. And it was. It was painful to me at the time, but nothing compared to the November policy that excluded the children of gay couples from baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. That was just devastating to me when that transpired. And that changed everything from then on out. It was like someone splashed water on my face and I recognized that I needed to go entirely different direction than I had gone up to that point in my life.
John Dehlin [00:12:59] And it wasn't easy for you to find a new profession. Like, once you're over a decade committed at ces, it's not like you're super marketable necessarily in academia or even anywhere else. Right.
David Bokovoy [00:13:14] That's true. In fact, most seminary teachers for the church do not even have a teaching license. And so when something happens, like a divorce, for example, and they're fired, I've had friends that have been in that situation. It can be very difficult financially for them. I was. It's been difficult for my family. I don't want to say that it has not. We took a $30,000 pay cut at the time, and I'm still dealing with student loan issues at age 52, so.
John Dehlin [00:13:42] Cause Brandeis ain't cheap. Right?
David Bokovoy [00:13:43] Yeah. You know, I paid for my master's and then they paid for the doctorate, but still I was taking out student loans with four children for diapers and things like that. So it's been challenging for sure. But I was very fortunate in that I kept my foot. I had my foot in two doors simultaneously. So, for example, when BYU went the direction that it did, I immediately contacted people at the University of Utah and I went in and did a postdoc at the U of U in their languages and literature program. I taught Biblical Hebrew, the language, historical Jesus courses. I taught a course on sex in the Bible and then the Book of Mormon is literature for two semesters there as well. And then I also was able to work for Utah State University designing online courses in those same areas, more or less. And then that's. And then I went from there to prison.
John Dehlin [00:14:45] And what you mean by that is.
David Bokovoy [00:14:48] Yeah, and from there, yes, I became the director of prison education for Salt Lake Community College. We've been running a program there for a number of years now. And it's been wonderful to be a part of. And I should actually state that anything that I share regarding that or any other situation is my own opinion, my own reflection and my own views as an individual. I am not representing those of the prison education program of Salt Lake Community College or the Utah Department of Corrections. I am my own entity in these interviews.
John Dehlin [00:15:21] Or Coco.
David Bokovoy [00:15:22] Or Coco. Yeah, Coco is the name. Nickname that my wife Carolyn has gone by for those who don't know, quite a while. So thank you.
Becoming a Prison Chaplain
John Dehlin [00:15:30] So how should we jump into kind of. I don't know if you want to do it. As you mentioned, I think it was six. Did you say six years ago?
David Bokovoy [00:15:38] Almost six years ago. Yeah, we did that. Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:15:40] Do we do. Do we do year by year? Like how do we. How do you want to take your transition? Like. Yeah, let's set it back. So six years ago, where about were you? This would have been 2018, right?
David Bokovoy [00:15:52] Yeah, so I was. Yes, working for doing the job. Employment that I was at the time. And then it became permanent and it's something that I've really enjoyed. I had never been into a prison setting before and I walked in and had incredible experiences. One of my first experiences was with a student or who'd been incarcerated in the women's facility. And I looked at her student audit report and she had maintained like a 3.7 GPA and was working towards her associate degree. The program started before I came in and so I looked at that and I looked at her and I said, my goodness, this is incredible. Look what you have done. You are so smart. And she looked at me and her tear, she got teary eyed and she said, well, wait I did that. I said, yeah, you did. And she said, my parents always told me I was smart, but I never believed them. And I said, well, your parents are right, and now you've shown yourself and you get to show the world what you can do. And that was one of the first experiences I ever had. And I was hooked. From then on out, I could see the power, the transformative power of higher education in people's lives. And I've always been driven, John and Margi, to do something to change the world. I don't know, to make it a little bit better, to help people. It's hard for me to imagine myself doing anything else that isn't involved with really trying to make a difference, particularly for those who have been marginalized or have not had opportunities like I have been privileged with. So it's been an incredible journey, which I'm very grateful. I actually then took on another position for the Utah Department of Corrections. I worked as a chaplain in the prison system, providing spiritual, emotional and psychological support to incarcerated individuals as a, like
John Dehlin [00:17:57] a night job or like, as a part time job.
David Bokovoy [00:18:00] So I would know, as a part time job, I would put in as many hours a week as I could. I'd go in on Sundays. So for a few years there, I was going into the prison six days a week between my job with Salt Lake Community College and then the second part time job as a chaplain, which is interesting because people would, you know, I would help as well train the religious volunteers, which would include LDS volunteers and even LDS Institute directors and so forth that I'd worked with and would hug them and see them and help them in their efforts. Because what I believe in is spirituality, and people obtain that in different ways, but it's quite frequently through religion. And so therefore it doesn't matter to me if someone wants to be a Latter Day Saint, Buddhist, Muslim or Jewish. I like to see people use that as a springboard to become the best version of themselves that they can. So it was a powerful experience and I had. By that time I had gone on a journey myself and I no longer. Well, I consider myself a spiritual atheist at this stage of my life. And people would often ask the question, why would a spiritual atheist want to be a chaplain? But it actually was perfect in light of my background with CES and of course with biblical and religious scholarship, to jump into that position because I did so without an agenda. I think a Latter Day Saint chaplain or a Muslim chaplain would have a hard time perhaps not pushing a little bit of their views and perspectives. Onto those who are incarcerated there, where my role was not that I was employed by the state. So my job was to support them in whatever it was that they pursued. So that's what I've been doing.
A Day in the Life of a Prison Chaplain
John Dehlin [00:19:51] Paint for us a picture of what a chaplain's day is like and how a chaplain at a prison interacts with and tries to support. Is it prisoner? Is that the right word, or is there a better word? Well, incarcerated individual.
David Bokovoy [00:20:10] Yeah, that's one I'll use. A systems impacted student. There are a lot of things that we can describe and use, but sure, prisoner is fine. We can go that for this purpose. What's a daily? Well, I would host spiritual support groups for the LGBTQ community that is there. I would. I hosted Muslim prayer services. So I would show up and do that and pray with the Muslim prisoners. And a lot of times I would sit there, and then, like, on Sundays, I was going on Sundays, and LDS meetings would be taking place, and I would be outside of that and in my office, and then people would come to me and. And want to talk about challenges and things that they had faced in an incarcerated system. I had a lot of very, very difficult issues that were brought to me over those years that I was a chaplain involved in.
Margi Dehlin [00:21:10] I can imagine.
David Bokovoy [00:21:11] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:21:12] Now I don't know anything. So, like, I'm envisioning prisoners in jail cells, and maybe they go to a workout area where they walk around for an hour and then go back to their cells. So is it structured so that a prisoner could come to an office and sit down, like a faculty at a university kind of office hours, or a therapist kind of. Is there that type of opportunity in a prison?
David Bokovoy [00:21:42] Not entirely. It's a lot. The prison is a lockdown facility that is focused on security, and incarcerated individuals there cannot move just at will. But there are certain times when they have access to the chapel, for example, or to classes, and that they can move depending upon whatever level of privilege that they've acquired. I had a very powerful experience, transformative experience on one of those. I would go up usually on Sundays, and one day a man came to me, and he had been a student of ours at Salt Lake Community College since the beginning and had been working towards his associate degree. But he came to me on a Sunday, not in that position or role, but as a chaplain, and he sat down and he said, dave, I know that you are an atheist and you don't believe in an afterlife, Because I would be. I'm very open. That's why I'm doing these interviews. I Don't really. I'm very open and I would tell them where I would be, where I am. And therefore, it's not my goal to convert or deconvert, but to support you. And so he said to you, don't believe in an afterlife. And he said, my HIV has turned to aids. And I just came back a couple of days ago from the doctor and he told me that I also have prostate cancer and they cannot treat the AIDS because that would affect the immune challenges of the cancer. And I. So I don't know what to do now. I will never walk out of these walls. Do I just hit any motion? Do I just slip my wrist? Or do I just wait to see which of these two diseases kills me? And first of all, in a situation like that, there isn't really an answer you can give. And what I found as a chaplain, that what I could offer is empathy. And I do have a lot of empathy. And it was easy for that situation because I knew him personally and wanted to see him succeed. I envision our college students moving on, earning their college degrees and re entering society and having a chance to live happy, successful lives. And so that was. It was. It was. It was difficult, for sure. And I didn't know quite how to respond other than show that empathy. And then I said, I can't tell you what to do. I will walk out of these walls in a couple of hours. That is true. Yet you may be the last person that I ever talked to. I could get in that car and have a heart attack or have an accident, and that would be the end. All of us are going to die, and we don't know when. We may have minutes left. We may have hours, days, years, decades. We don't know. All we know is we have now the present. And I believe that consciousness is an incredible sacred gift that we've received through evolution. And it is incredible that we get to take in the beauty of a sunset or a sunrise or smell grass or a flower and see the beautiful mountains that surround us here in Utah and the snow. We need to take that in every moment for as many moments as we possibly have. And I can think of no other, greater way to honor that sacred gift of consciousness than to do that specifically. And if you would like to take it to a second level, then help someone else with consciousness experience happiness and joy in that moment, because all we have are moments. And it was. I appreciate a chance to share that story because it really is important to me and it defines my. When I talk about being a Spiritual atheist. That's what I mean about spirituality. That's how I would define spirituality. Spirituality is focusing upon the moment, trying to be present, caring about others, caring about the planet, caring about life and living it to the fullest for as many moments as we possibly can. And he. And I don't know. Well, I do know that. I don't know that it was my conversation that made the difference. I would never suggest such a thing. But he hung on and passed away at the hospital eventually.
Margi Dehlin [00:26:32] So I have a question around, as you kind of described it, going from this place where you had never really been within prison walls, to dropped into a situation really where now you are serving as a chaplain and you're not only having exposure, let's say, to a new system, but also to really, it sounds like the very vulnerable parts to human beings. Was there anything particularly surprising for you if, maybe, I don't know, if you had assumptions going into kind of the work or what you thought it might be. Was there anything surprising or that stands out in your work as a chaplain with these particular human beings existing within basically a system of incarceration?
David Bokovoy [00:27:36] Thank you. I appreciate that question. I think the answer to that would
Margi Dehlin [00:27:42] be,
David Bokovoy [00:27:44] and I don't want to invoke trauma, but Utah has an inordinate amount of sex offenders for whatever reason. And typically in other states, those who've committed a crime such as that are housed separately from the general population because they are at risk for violent acts. We have so many here in the state of Utah that that is just not an option. And, you know, when I came, when I went in initially, it was. I love people, and I especially love people that are. I can see are struggling or going through a difficult time. I just. It's part of being adhd. ADHD people often have a lot of empathy. I mean, there's a lot of problems and challenges with it, but that's one of the nice sides of it. And I connected immediately with the gangsters and those who committed drunk driving accidents or white collar crime, the various things that would lead someone to such a state. It was difficult to think about working with those who'd committed a sex offense. I'm a father and I'm a grandfather and I. That's a difficult issue. And yet what I learned was that everyone has a story. I don't believe anyone turns to darkness just for darkness sake. Everyone has a story and it doesn't justify what has been done, but everyone has a story. And when you get to know a little bit about the story in the background, you see the humanity and develop, the compassion, the concern and the love. And that was a really important growth for me. And I. Yeah, I've come to deeply care about all those who are incarcerated, regardless of what they've done.
Free Will, Mental Health, and Crisis in the Prison
John Dehlin [00:29:44] This is the. You may not be prepared for this question, but I think it'd be fun to at least ask it nowadays. And this probably isn't super new. There's this enduring question about how much free will do any of us really have? And I think the area where that conversation is most useful is in situations with people who are in prison, incarcerated people, and I think it touches on empathy as well. Have you thought through that question of free will? And if so, where have you personally come out on it? And if you have thoughts on that, have you applied it to your work with people in the prison system?
David Bokovoy [00:30:29] Oh, thank you. Lovely question. I had an experience in my life where I hit what for me was rock bottom. I was very depressed.
John Dehlin [00:30:44] Was this before your last Mormon stories interview or.
David Bokovoy [00:30:46] This is after. This is after my Mormon stories. Yeah, after. So it's after that I hit a point where a rock bottom.
John Dehlin [00:30:52] Do you want to talk about what led to that or is that not as important?
David Bokovoy [00:30:56] Well, let's see. How'd you set it? Well, we can circle back to it.
John Dehlin [00:31:00] Okay.
David Bokovoy [00:31:00] Okay, let's circle back to it, if that's okay.
John Dehlin [00:31:01] Yeah.
David Bokovoy [00:31:02] Okay. It's. So I hit a point of rock bottom in my life where I was struggling with depression like I'd never experienced it before. And so I, I, it was. I would go to work and then come home, and I would start. I'd start to drink, and I'd start to drink until I fell asleep. Now, this went on for three days. Okay. And then I woke up on the fourth morning and I had a hangover, and I felt terrible. And I thought, my goodness, what am I doing? This is a terrible path that I am on. I need to stop this trajectory. I need to change. And I was very fortunate. I called some friends of mine and I just said, hey, I am struggling. And they came and picked me up, spent the day with them that day. I had a wonderful therapist at the time, and I set up three different therapy sessions. And anyway, I just. And then after about a week or so, things started to calm down, and I worked through this very difficult time in my life. It didn't last that long because of the resources that I had, but it was transformative for me, and I am so very grateful for what I learned from that experience. I learned and it changed the way I see humanity and free will. I no longer see humans as good or bad. People aren't good or bad in my viewpoint. I think humans are neutral. I see choices, decisions as good and bad based upon how they affect people, the pain or trauma or goodness that those decisions might invoke. So decisions are good or bad, but humans I see as neutral. And I see this because here I was when I hit rock bottom, I had the resources to overcome that. If I had not had those resources available, I don't know what would have happened. Right. I could have. I could have maybe gotten in an accident while drinking and driving or done something, who knows? And then I, with myself, would be incarcerated in prison. And so it is easier than people realize to make a bad choice or a bad decision in the most difficult periods of their life and end up living a life of incarceration.
Margi Dehlin [00:33:30] So
David Bokovoy [00:33:33] I don't know that I fully answered the free will issue that you've proposed, but that's. I don't know that we have entirely free will because I think we're so impacted by our environment and our DNA and our genetics and the trauma that we've experienced. And that is intergenerational as well. Now we know, right? The body keeps the score and they things.
John Dehlin [00:33:57] It's kind of a privilege thing. There's. When it comes to mental health, there's genetic privilege, there's life situational privilege, there's financial, economic privilege, there's social privilege. But like you said, if you don't have the money or the insurance or the friends or the genetics, any of us can go in any direction at any time if we think, oh, I'm a moral person. But you take a few of these assets away from us, these privileges, we're all monkeys at the end of the day.
David Bokovoy [00:34:30] Absolutely. Just advanced apes. Yeah, for sure.
John Dehlin [00:34:35] And so I'm guessing that's part of how you develop empathy for incarcerated people. Right. Do you find that. That most of the incarcerated people that you interact with just didn't have a lot of the same privileges that the rest of us?
David Bokovoy [00:34:50] Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And many of them are adhd and they're undiagnosed. Right. And adhd, it can be a superpower if it is. If people learn to manage the symptoms, but if the symptoms aren't managed, it is destructive. Destructive for people's lives, relationships and things. And so, yeah, there are a lot of people there that are. In fact, everyone there is dealing with mental health challenges, even if they weren't before they were incarcerated. The trauma of living an incarcerated life is so real. It was interesting to me as I would fill out applications for financial aid or admissions, help them, our students, fill these out for the college program. I was amazed sometimes at some of the mistakes they would make. So they were filling out and they would give the wrong birth date or Social Security number, things that seemed pretty basic, more or less. And yet then after a month or two of in class, we'd see not all, but some of many of them just flourishing. And I think our average GPA for our college program is about 3.6, probably. It's incredible. So, you know, it's. Sorry, I lost my train of thought.
John Dehlin [00:36:08] Oh, no.
David Bokovoy [00:36:08] What was the question?
John Dehlin [00:36:09] So empathy for incarcerated individuals tied to privilege or lack thereof. You talked about adhd.
David Bokovoy [00:36:17] Oh, yes, thank you. And so what happens then when someone is incarcerated? It's traumatic. And I read an academic article that was talking about something that your field, John, in psychology, and they were addressing what happens when a person experiences something traumatic in life. For example, the death of a loved one that they live with. It takes some time for the brain to make the new connections that that person is truly gone. They feel that they're still there or a severed limb, something like that, that goes on. And it takes a while for people to get their neurological connections together, to be able to survive in an environment such as that. They're worried about their safety. They no longer have choices or freedom. They no longer can interact with their loved ones. It's. It's incredibly traumatic. And that trauma lingers. It lingers. And it lingers once they leave as well. So, you know, it's. It was reported in the news when the Utah. The new Utah prison opened up. There were a lot of challenges. One in transferring information. For some reason, the data was lost as to, you know, which medicines people needed to provide. Sorry. And, you know, so we went. So they were. They were unable to administer medications for some time. And we're not just talking about blood pressure medicines or, you know, or what, something like. We're talking about antipsychotics.
Life as a Married Atheist After Leaving the Church
Margi Dehlin [00:37:56] Wow.
David Bokovoy [00:37:57] And yeah, and so imagine, you know, so many of these. Many people are incarcerated if they're on an antipsychotic. Lovely, wonderful. Just such pleasant people to be around and interact with. And yet without that medication, it's very difficult for them. So imagine going off cold turkey. I'd never sobbed like that after a week of being in that prison during that situation, because I understand, I'm adhd. I have family members with mental health issues. I understand it. I get It. And it was painful to witness and not be able to do anything. And I got home after a week. We had been just registering students for college classes. In the midst of all of that, I got home on a Friday and it was the hardest I'd sobbed in many, many years. It was difficult for my family to even see and I didn't know what to do. But I thought, well, I really only have one choice. I can either, you know, just say, this is too difficult, I don't want to be involved with this, the system's broken, or I can jump in and try to make a difference in people's lives. And. And so I was. That's what I tried to do.
John Dehlin [00:39:14] You know, it's funny because you might identify as an atheist now, but when you think about what Jesus focused on, it's like the poor homeless, the sick, incarcerated.
David Bokovoy [00:39:31] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:39:31] I mean, like you're. And these are all the things that widows, right. Like the outcasts. And these are all the types of things that the average citizen, Christian or not, is just like, oh, it's a little too much like, let's keep those people over there and I'll go to church and pay my 10% or like volunteer for Cub Scouts and feel like I'm contributing to humanity. And that's most of us, those who are willing to really take on homelessness or the prison system or like hospice care or hunger. That's a next level thing that few of us dare to trod. And yet, you know, there are all these associations that come. Well, first of all, I just. I would have to think that your upbringing as a Mormon and as a Christian may be informed that those values for you. And then I'm also just going to note the irony that someone might label you as a godless atheist and yet you're doing some of the toughest heavy lifting that Jesus himself said is his jam. Does that make sense?
David Bokovoy [00:40:45] Thank you. That's kind of. And I agree with you. I still love Jesus. He had a lot of wise and smart things to say, and I wouldn't agree with his apocalyptic views and things that he held, but I still love Jesus very much. And I would love to see those teachings incorporated and applied more in society. We'd be much better off, certainly. But I guess maybe to respond to that, I could share another experience I've had since the Mormon Stories interview. And it involves the Holy Ghost and what I once attributed, feelings I once had that I once attributed to the Holy Ghost. Okay. When I disassociated from the church all of a sudden, it was logical for me to want to experience things that I'd never experienced before. So all of a sudden I started thinking, okay, I'd like to learn to drink a beer and what that tastes like, appreciate a beer. I'd like to go dancing with my friends and clubs and do things like that. I didn't do that in my 20s. I was changing diapers in my 20s with little kids. And so I want to do this, I want to do that, I want to do this, I want to do that. And, and ADHD people such as myself can already be selfish because our brains don't process the dopamine as well as those who are neurologically typical. And so we're constantly seeking a fix, if you will, to provide that. So that can lead towards selfishness. What it is? Is it? What is the fix that I need? Or what is the obsession or passion that I'm hyper focusing on at this moment in my life? Because when someone is focused, society, the world often rewards them. Oh, look what a great violinist she became. Or, oh, what an incredible scholar. Or, oh, look at the accomplishments here. But when one is focused, it means that other things are left on the side. It doesn't matter. Anyone who has achieved any level of success because of intense focus is going to have left other things on the side, including relationships and self care. Yeah, absolutely. For sure. For sure. So that's important. I think that's very helpful to recognize. So what happened? I reached a point in my life where I was looking back on what had happened since I had left the church, and it was all about me. I want to learn to do this, I want to learn to do that. I want to experience that. And I realized that I had become quite selfish. And I don't mean to say that I didn't care about others. I cared deeply about my wife's happiness. I cared deeply about my children's happiness. I cared deeply about people who are incarcerated and the world at large. I care deeply. But the happiness that mattered the most was my own. And when I realized that I did not like that at all, I felt really bad about myself. And so I thought, I don't want to do that anymore. I want to instead prioritize other people's happiness. And the second I had that thought and I thought, I'm going to do that, I was filled with so much joy and peace and happiness and love. And I hadn't had those feelings in a very long time. They were the feelings that I had once attributed to the Holy Ghost. And they were back. And they were back with greater intensity and force than I had ever experienced before. Because it was without dogma. It was without, you know, I don't mean to, you know, say too much that is negative about Mormonism or my former experiences, but what can happen in Latter Day Saintism is this idea that we are separate, we're unique, that the world is different. I remember being a kid in Southern California and going to Disneyland. If you saw somebody wearing a BYU shirt or something like, oh, there's our people there. There are people right there. Oh, they must be Mormon. And now everybody's my person, Everyone is my person now everyone's my tribe. And I care about everyone's happiness. And so it's even more intense than that. And so I started trying to apply that. The clerk in the grocery store just taking a minute and thinking, can I say something to show this person, Help them feel happy or in the prison or wherever I was. And as I did that. But it was transformative and very helpful. And I still, of course, as everyone knows, my life is up and down, but I know how to get out of the down parts now. I need to refocus on other people and other people's happiness for a while. And that's what takes me right out of it. And it connects with my goodness. I learned. And then all of a sudden I started thinking about my whole youth and growing up as a Latter Day Saint and what was this Holy Ghost. And I understood what happened in my life. I was experiencing some challenges as a teenager, and I was more interested in rock and roll and in surfing than religion. But my mother came into my room one time and she said, I know you're going through a hard time, but positive thinking has been shown to really make a difference. So why don't you try this book out? And it was OG Mendido's, the Greatest Salesman in the World.
John Dehlin [00:46:44] Loved it.
David Bokovoy [00:46:45] Do you know that book?
John Dehlin [00:46:45] Oh, yeah, I read it myself.
David Bokovoy [00:46:46] Have you read it?
John Dehlin [00:46:47] Oh, yeah. Okay.
David Bokovoy [00:46:48] Have you read it?
John Dehlin [00:46:49] You know, kind of those late teen years? Yeah, it was very inspirational to me.
David Bokovoy [00:46:54] Really? For you as well?
John Dehlin [00:46:55] It was. Was it for you?
David Bokovoy [00:46:57] It was for me too, John.
John Dehlin [00:46:59] Yeah.
David Bokovoy [00:46:59] Yeah, exactly.
John Dehlin [00:47:01] Did you write the Greatest Salesman in the World as well?
David Bokovoy [00:47:04] That's. That's the one I'm referring to. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the one I'm referring to.
John Dehlin [00:47:07] Love that book.
David Bokovoy [00:47:07] Oh, my goodness, John.
John Dehlin [00:47:08] Yeah, yeah.
David Bokovoy [00:47:09] I'm so glad to hear you say that.
John Dehlin [00:47:10] I mean, it was that and C.S. lewis, those two. When I Was trying to prepare for my mission, but feeling depression. Those two books were instrumental for me.
David Bokovoy [00:47:18] Oh, we share that in common then. So she brought in Augmentido's book. She said, it's not about God, it's not about Jesus. But read this book, and it's about scrolls and mantras and you can be happy. Turns out the book kind of is about Jesus. Right? But that's okay. But I'm adhd, so I never finished the book, I have to admit, which is typical. But for those who aren't familiar with it, it's a self help book where this tells a story of a guy who journeys and finds these scrolls and he's told that if he reads each scroll three times daily, it will change his life. He'll become the world's greatest salesman. Right? And so the second one, so the second one was really transformative for me. And I hadn't thought about it in probably, I don't know, 35 years or something like that. And all of a sudden I started thinking about this and I'm like, oh, I remember that second scroll and the impact it made on my life. And I started thinking about it. I'm like, oh, yeah. I will greet this day with love in my heart. For love is the greatest secret to success in all ventures. Muscle can split a soul. Sword. But only the shield. Sorry. But only the unseen power of love can open the hearts of men. And until I master that art, I will remain no more than a peddler in the marketplace. And how will I greet those whom I meet? In only one way. In silence. And to myself I will say, I love you. Though unspoken from my lips, it will shine from my eyes and from my brow. And who is there who can say nay to my goods when they feel such love? I will greet this day with love in my heart. And I will say, succeed. It's a, it's a beautiful mantra, right? And. And I, I hadn't thought of it in, like, it's all these years, and all of a sudden all those words came back to me again. Because when I hit that second scroll, I'm like, okay, I'm adhd. And I'm, I'm like, okay, I'm going to do this. I'm going to. I'm going to become a loving person. And so I read those. I read it three days, every day, every day. And I tried doing that in high school. I would go up and I'd meet people and talk to people in the high school and I would, I would say, I would in my mind, I think I'd say him. And I'd say, I love you. And I'd say it and I'd think it. And I felt so happy. I was happier than I'd ever been up to that point in my life. And it's partly because ADHD people struggle to connect with people, sometimes others. Sometimes we struggle because we can become so focused on our passions and things. And what I crave most is connection, human connection. And all of a sudden, I felt it. I felt it very strongly because I wasn't focused on myself. I was really thinking about others and that. I shared this story in our interview from six years ago about how I was sitting in the math class and this girl asked if I was a Mormon. And I said, yes, I am. And she said, oh, is that why you're always so happy? And I thought about it. I said, well, yes, that's why. But it wasn't why. I mean, it's not totally disconnected, of course, but it wasn't why. It was because I had learned to connect with others. I had learned to love people and to really care and care about people. I'd learned to try to apply that, and that made me happy. And so that was the Holy Ghost. And then I thought about everything. I thought, my goodness, when did I feel that in church? When did I feel that on my mission? I never felt that when I had a testimony of the Book of Mormon, for sure, and I felt God had told me that it was true, but I'd never felt those same feelings of the Holy Ghost. Tell me it was true. And in fact, as a missionary, I remember I would pray and I'm like, where should we go tracting? And I couldn't feel the Holy Ghost because. Give me the answer. Because that wasn't what I was feeling or what I identified as the Holy Ghost. And so I developed this theological perspective of my own. I thought, well, even at that stage, I thought, well, God wants us to be here. He wants us to figure things out. He wants us to use our agency. So he's not going to ask. I shouldn't even ask him. I should use my own brain and figure out where we should go tracting. I should use my own brain and figure I didn't even ask God if I should marry Carolyn, my wife. I just. I knew I wanted to marry her. So I just. And I figured God would be okay, and if I was making a wrong decision, I'd probably get some sort of inspiration. But otherwise, the reason I developed that is because what I thought was the Holy Ghost was connection and love, human connection, human connection and love. And of course you're not going to feel that just by reading a book or just by, you know, figuring out where to go tracting or anything such as that. And so it really helped me understand what I went through as a Latter Day Saint and the good parts of that and how I can take those good parts, jettison those things that I need to that are problematic and harmful to me and others, and I can live a happier life, a better life that shows concern and compassion for others. So this was a long way then, John, of coming back to tell you thank you for the kind words. I don't feel that it. In some ways, I guess it's selfish. I feel better when I'm helping people and when I'm showing love.
Rethinking Spiritual Experiences Through a Secular Lens
John Dehlin [00:52:55] And just to summarize, and then Margi's got something like we were conditioned to call it the Holy Ghost, but really it's just elevated emotion. It's dopamine, it's serotonin, it's oxytocin, their chemicals, neuro pathways that we all have access to. Mormonism calls it the Holy Ghost, which is fine. The only problem is if you believe that you can only have that if you are an orthodox believing Mormon, then when you leave it, you all of a sudden are feeling this huge lack. But what I heard you say is you can tap right back into that Holy Ghost.
David Bokovoy [00:53:35] Absolutely.
John Dehlin [00:53:35] Just by really loving others and putting them first. Is that what I heard you say?
David Bokovoy [00:53:40] I believe so. I don't feel I have all the answers or I just have found some answers that are working for me right now and that have been transformative and I'm excited to share in case they can help others. And then I have a long journey ahead as well, hopefully.
John Dehlin [00:53:58] And just while we're at it, it's probably also true that those negative feelings of fear or anger that we were conditioned to associate with the adversary, with Satan, with Lucifer, or temptation, those are normal human emotions like anger, sadness, frustration, envy, whatever. And you have access to those as well. And maybe that's a good thing. Instead of suppressing them, you learn to understand them better instead of writing them off as Lucifer.
David Bokovoy [00:54:28] Oh, goodness, true. One of my heroes is Brene Brown. I love Brene Brown and she's an expert in trauma. And I'm so grateful for my wife for so many reasons. My companion, my life companion. She's incredibly wise and she's a fixer. I don't know how to describe it. She won't Leave something in the house, like a dishwasher or a drawer or something unfixed. If she can't do it herself, and she often can, then she'll make sure it's taken care of. But she's that way with relationships as well in her own life. And so she's constantly introducing me to things that I probably wouldn't notice, like Brene Brown's book we just finished, Echoes of the Heart, where she talks about human emotions and gives people vocabulary to be able to describe those things that are very natural. And, and indeed, once one disaffiliates from the church, there is an incredible amount of pain and sorrow and anguish that goes into that. And one of it just, it happens, it's inevitable and it affects relationships as well. We have been shamed by family members because of our journey for leaving the church. We have been shamed by friends. We've been shamed by people, especially my wife Carolyn. And there have been many times when I have sat and held her as she has sobbed and cried because it is so difficult to experience such a thing and go through such a thing. So I would never say that, you know, leaving the church is all, oh, happy, yeah, yay, run.
John Dehlin [00:56:18] Wonderful. Let's go.
David Bokovoy [00:56:18] Have a good, wonderful life. And you get to drink and you get to do that. It's incredibly painful and difficult, but worth it for sure. Absolutely.
Discovering an ADHD Diagnosis and Understanding the Brain
Margi Dehlin [00:56:34] I was going to ask you a bit about what it has meant for you to have the ADHD diagnosis, to have this sense of an understanding of your own brain, kind of what it does well, what it struggles with. Do you want to talk about that? Do you want to talk about the impact of that?
David Bokovoy [00:56:56] Oh, yes, thank you, Margi. I appreciate that. It's been really helpful to learn how my brain works. Everybody should learn how their brain works. I, I go to a weekly therapist. I'm just so grateful for therapy and for professional help. And yeah, I initially just kind of dismissed the whole idea of adhd. And I'm like, okay. Because, you know, growing up in the 70s and the 80s, as a child, it really wasn't an issue. People didn't really talk about stuff like that. And it became more of an issue in classrooms later on. And I tended to think of ADHD as just kind of a catch all expression or term for those who had a hard time sitting still or didn't want to work hard or whatever. I don't know. I wouldn't call myself a believer in such a diagnosis, but the more I studied, the more I learned. And again, that was all through my wife helping me to understand this, she brought, hey, let's read this book, the ADHD Marriage. Hey, let's read ADHD 2.0. Let's do this. And as she helped me to take advantage of those resources, I started to realize that there are challenges with being ADHD that affect one's life. For instance.
John Dehlin [00:58:21] Real quick.
David Bokovoy [00:58:21] Yeah, go ahead.
John Dehlin [00:58:23] Let me just see if I understand the stereotype, because I know a little bit about adhd, but I'm rusty. So the stereotype is like the kid that fidgets, that can't sit still, that can't pay attention, that loses focus easily, and maybe isn't that bright, maybe that. Let's just say those are some stereotypes. And because of those stereotypes, we often miss that those around us or even. Well, number one, we don't realize that it's a medical condition. But then also because of that stereotype is incomplete. We miss that it. That it could apply not only to other people, but also to ourselves.
David Bokovoy [00:59:07] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:59:08] In a richer way. Is that right?
David Bokovoy [00:59:09] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:59:10] Okay. Is there anything else you would add to the stereotype that I kind of.
David Bokovoy [00:59:14] And there's, there's. The stereotypes exist typically for a reason. There's a lot of truth to what you're saying there.
Margi Dehlin [00:59:19] I, I. Impulsivity is sometimes impulsivity.
Speaker D [00:59:23] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:59:23] Okay, good.
David Bokovoy [00:59:24] Oh, yes. Impulsivity.
Speaker D [00:59:26] Hard.
David Bokovoy [00:59:26] It's difficult to manage finances because for ADHD people, it's all the. It's either now or not now. So procrastination, I mean, they're just. The list goes on of challenges that come with this. The emotion. Emotional regulation is also difficult. We tend to wear our emotions on our sleeves, and for good or for bad, and fortunately for me, it's usually good. I'm a pretty happy person and I love people, and so I tend to be positive a lot of times. But then if I feel wronged or if someone else has been wronged, especially if I see someone who's been wronged that I work with or somebody that I care about, I tend to get deeply emotional. And then I. I can maybe do something, say something, or act in a way that I would regret for sure. And so because in ADHD people, since we're now or not now, and we can be a lot of fun, and I like to have fun and a good time. We're playful in some ways. Some ways can be playful, like children. But I remembered so much of my life started to make sense then because my wife and I, we were driving in the car, and all of a sudden a song came on, it was the 80s band, the Pretenders.
Speaker D [01:00:52] Okay.
David Bokovoy [01:00:53] And the song was, let me think, a song was Middle of the Road, okay? And we're driving along. And I said, oh, haven't heard this song in years. This song came out in 1984. It was on the album Learning to Crawl. And I remember that because I was going into summer school in between seventh and eighth grade year. And that's when I was exposed to this album in 1984. And that's when that album came out. I started to remember all that. And then I started thinking, oh my goodness, yeah, summer school. I had to go to summer school. 7th grade year, 8th grade year, 9th grade year, 10th grade year, 11th grade year. And then I barely passed high school. And I all of a sudden realized why. It's like I said, you walk into a classroom and if you're not engaged in whatever the topic is or a conversation with someone on the street and you're not engaged, you've got 100 television sets at full volume going at the same time. And so you'll get distracted and. And that's hard for classroom settings. It's hard for relationships as well. So ADHD people are typically fun and playful and childlike and therefore they bond with people deeply and have empathy and a lot of love. But my goodness, then what happens? So we make friends really easily. Really easily make friends, like deep friends, connections really quickly. Maintaining long term relationships for an ADHD person is very challenging.
Margi Dehlin [01:02:35] If you were going to kind of say the gifts of ADHD and then for you in particular, and then things that are kind of the challenging aspects of it, how would you kind of talk about that?
John Dehlin [01:02:50] And to piggyback on that, like, when I think of David Bacavoy, I think of a PhD from Brandeis, right?
Margi Dehlin [01:02:56] Like challenging.
John Dehlin [01:02:57] I don't think of a kid who would have gone to summer school for four, five, six years consecutive in high school with a mediocre gpa. But that, that reveals a misunderstanding about adhd, right?
Margi Dehlin [01:03:13] And can we just say, like, before you dive in, sometimes those things, like the summer school after, that's really. Can we just talk systems for a minute? Like that's what happens. I think for many brains that actually are trying to be forced into yet another system, the educational system, and there can be a lot of messages or stories that are created because of that. Right. That it's really not indicative of someone who has behavioral issues or isn't smart or. But really it's just kind of, oh, wow, not a fit for this system. This System does not really see or create a space for neurodivergent brains in general.
David Bokovoy [01:03:57] Yes, absolutely. I had to learn how to study and how my brain worked, even though I didn't know anything about adhd. Like, for example, when I was in the mtc, you know, classroom setting and things like that, I was learning Portuguese and all of the. Everybody was picking up Portuguese. I had a companion who studied Spanish in high school. Well, I had never taken a foreign language course before. We could take art classes or foreign language course. So I took every art class I could take. I didn't want to study. And so I get to the mtc and all of a sudden I'm trying to learn Portuguese and I don't really. I have no idea how to even really study and learn something now. And yet before arriving there, I was gobbling up everything from Hugh Nibley that I possibly could. And, you know, Talmage is the great apostasy and everything like that. So much so that I. The hyper focus had kicked in. And I was really interested in those things and not so much as interested in learning Portuguese. It was. It was a task. And so I was struggling. They took me out of the class and put me into another room where they gave me. Speaking of systems, trying to help in the system. This guy is clearly slow. He can't really learn like other people can. So let's put him in.
John Dehlin [01:05:15] David Blackavoy's slow.
David Bokovoy [01:05:16] Well, you can be, because if it's not something that grabs your focus or your interest, it's hard to master, and it takes some discipline and so forth. And I certainly didn't have it at that stage. Stage in my life. And I still struggle now, but. But once that passion kicks in, the ADHD person can succeed and create magic. I. I mean, just art. Art of all sorts of levels, whether it's music or whether it's poetry or whether it's scholarship, whatever it might be. And for me, that kicked in with Bible scholarship and with history and Mormonism. Once that kicked in, then, you know, I got through my math classes. I got through my English classes in college. I got through them, and I did fine because. And, well, because I had kind of learned how my brain had worked in ways that I could absorb information. And it is very different, going back to Margi, what you suggested, than what typically happens in a classroom setting. You stand and deliver or whatever it is, and it works if you're fascinated, and if not, you'll be off somewhere else in the mine.
John Dehlin [01:06:33] And this question Margi had about it, Adhd has the potential to be as much of an asset as a liability. Would you say it was a gift or an asset in helping you achieve what you've achieved?
David Bokovoy [01:06:48] Yeah. Yeah, it has been. And I am grateful for the gifts that come with being neurologically different. I'm very grateful for those. And I mourn the fact that I didn't understand it until about age 50 for sure.
John Dehlin [01:07:10] Do you have a sense for what you might have done differently if you had understand it earlier?
David Bokovoy [01:07:15] The most important thing would be that I would. I would focus more on those that I love and less on. Less on scholarship. And I would also, I would strive for emotional regulation. I use. I'm not a. I'm a hippie pacifist. I've never been in a physical fight in my whole life. It's not the way I. It's not part of my personality. And yet I can become confrontational with words, and I can use those words, and I know how to use them in a way that will, that will hurt. And I don't mean to suggest that I. It's not in my nature to, like, you know, swear at someone or, you know, denigrate someone or tell, you know, I would never do something like that, but it. Especially for someone I love and yet not regulating the emotions. Over the years, I looked back and could see how things that I'd said in conversations affected those that I love in a negative way. So I regret that and I mourn that. And it's been good, though, because I've had good conversations, even with my children, where I've told them about, yeah, I'm sorry I didn't understand. Made mistakes, and I love you and I apologize for the things that I have done, and that's helped us bond more deeply and, and, and so forth. Fortunately, I, I, Yeah, anyway, yeah, I, that's. Those are the big issues. It's really that.
Margi Dehlin [01:09:13] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:09:15] So your tips for someone who suspects they might merit an ADHD diagnosis, your tips would be what?
David Bokovoy [01:09:24] First of all, I, Yeah, I would learn everything that, that you possibly, possibly can about the subject. Learn how the brain works. There are wonderful resources available.
John Dehlin [01:09:34] You were mentioning books you read with Carol.
David Bokovoy [01:09:36] Yeah, yeah. My favorite One is ADHD 2.0. We read one a book, and I didn't finish it yet. I still have to finish, but ADHD marriage. And I gained a lot from that, but it was also painful because I'd read this story about a relationship right about. And I could see myself in that sense situation, and it hurt. But it was important. I Also, you know, as I've said before, regardless of one, whether one is neurologically typical or atypical, it matters not. Professional therapy is very important, I think, for everyone. I'm a big proponent of that. And then I guess to realize. Well, I'll quote. Well, you interviewed one of our good friends, Faith Erickson, a while ago, right?
Margi Dehlin [01:10:27] Yeah.
David Bokovoy [01:10:27] And she. Faith is a wonderful person. She was my former seminary student way back in the day.
Margi Dehlin [01:10:36] Oh, how about that? I had no idea.
David Bokovoy [01:10:39] Yeah. So that's how we have this connection. Grantsville, way out there, where J. Reuben Clark was from. So. Yeah, but she has a. She's such a wonderful parent, and she has a child that has adhd. And she was talking with that child, and the way that she framed it was so positive and beautiful. And Faith has ADHD too. Not to throw her under the bus, but that's why she's so wonderful. He looked at. She helped this child to recognize that it is a superpower. And yet, like Superman, there's kryptonite. So you have to be aware of the kryptonite. And I guess that's the big issue, is to realize that, realize the problems or challenges. And then what I have found helpful and absolutely necessary is meditation and mindfulness. Carolyn and I try to meditate every morning to the sunrise, and meditation and mindfulness has become a very important part of my. Of my life.
Margi Dehlin [01:11:55] Yeah. Yep.
John Dehlin [01:11:58] Love it. So, Dave, I wanted. If we can. If it makes sense. I know there are a few other topics we want to cover, for sure. I'm wondering if there's a way to kind of slightly shift into story mode in terms, and some of this will recover some of the ground we've already covered today. But like you do the Mormon Stories interview six years ago, you're working for the prison system by that point. You're, you're, you know, wondering if you're going to be able to let the church go or not. You're still probably having some anger at the church for misleading you, for the harm it's done to others, but also for not hiring you. But you're also discovering your freedoms. You and Carolyn are, you know, you move, you move to Daybreak and you start getting some new freedom friends, and you start experimenting with fun and life.
Post-Mormon Healing, Therapy, and Vision Quests
David Bokovoy [01:13:02] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:13:03] Tell us why that wasn't a Happy ever after and maybe talk us through. And you mentioned this before, that sometimes post Mormons talk about their faith journey is something that they, you know, they leave the church and then they arrive somehow and they figure it out.
Margi Dehlin [01:13:21] That's Right.
John Dehlin [01:13:22] You know, talk about how it wasn't just a linear thing that you solved and then happy ever after. And maybe if you can in story form, take us through some of the things that maybe led to the darker times. And then anything you want to share about how you have been healing and growing and I won't say, like got out of it because they'll come back probably, right?
David Bokovoy [01:13:46] Oh, absolutely.
John Dehlin [01:13:47] We're always a little bit of how you got depressed. If you can talk a bit about that and then how you healed from that.
David Bokovoy [01:13:55] Oh, yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:13:56] Or our healing or in process. Right.
John Dehlin [01:13:59] And again, I know we've covered some of it, but yeah, whatever you want to share.
David Bokovoy [01:14:02] I love the way that. And that was a great addition there, Margi. And the way you framed that. John. It is a journey. Sometimes we'll hear post Mormons speak about their period of deconstruction. I went through deconstruction. I passed through.
Margi Dehlin [01:14:18] It's like, glad that's over time.
David Bokovoy [01:14:20] And check, check. And I'm not going to speak about anybody else's journey. I can't do that. But I got to say, my own journey, I don't even know what that means, deconstruction, really. I mean, I know what it means, but I don't know what it means for myself. I am trying to deconstruct negative views that have been harmful to me in my life. Whether it's indoctrination into some homophobic view or whether it's, you know, the way that I behaved as an unmanaged ADHD mind. I don't know. It's a journey. Life is a journey and there is no arrival until we pass. Right. So for me at least, it's constantly trying to improve my happiness and live in the present and help others along the way. And I realized that I had suffered with depression for a very long time. It was connected with that experience with the Holy Ghost. What I thought was the Holy Ghost when it came back, when I thought, oh, I'm going to prioritize other people's happiness, and all of a sudden it takes off these great feelings. And I hadn't felt that in a long time in years. And I was able to mask that because as an ADHD person, the adrenaline of going dancing, having friends, having a good time, it was always kicking me into fun mode for sure. But the overall experience, there weren't those feelings that I had once had and I forgot and I'd forgotten about them because I had not feel, felt them really in many, many years. I don't even know how long. Really.
John Dehlin [01:16:04] Are you saying the fun mode was sort of a self medication, a numbing and an avoidance or distraction?
Margi Dehlin [01:16:12] It can be just a part of you.
David Bokovoy [01:16:15] Yeah, no, it's part of me, but it can be as well be used that way. And I think I certainly did because I realized that I had been. Then I understood what depression felt like, and I realized that I'd had those feelings for many years. In fact, as I started to realize that the Book of Mormon was not an ancient text, as I started to realize, really, some of the harmful, what I view as harmful perspectives and teachings by contemporary church leaders, that was difficult because I loved it so much. It meant so much to me. It's everything. And so I realized I'd been depressed for a long time and I didn't know it, and I was able to kind of mask it because. It was a good realization. And so I went through an experience. I had an EMDR experience. Obviously, you guys know that. I mean, you'd be better. Emdr, it's a type of therapy that can be provided where in essence, a therapist puts you into a hypnotic state and then has you revisit some past trauma. Often what happens. And I experienced that with a therapist, and it was so incredible. It was one of the. It was a really profound therapeutic session for me.
John Dehlin [01:17:42] And tell me if I'm wrong, but it usually involves some sort of what they call bilateral stimulation.
David Bokovoy [01:17:46] Exactly.
John Dehlin [01:17:46] Well, either through light or through some physical object. It's left, right, left, right. And you're tracking it with your eyes.
David Bokovoy [01:17:54] See, now you're putting me into it right now.
John Dehlin [01:17:58] And there's something about how that kind of helps. And then if you're leaning into some past traumas or difficulties while that bilateral stimulation is going on, I don't think we even fully understand why, but there's a way to kind of lean into it it and process it when it was sort of stored there. There's a way to kind of free it, maybe. Is that.
David Bokovoy [01:18:18] That's great. I'm glad we have a professionalism.
John Dehlin [01:18:21] That's great.
David Bokovoy [01:18:21] That was a good description. I.
John Dehlin [01:18:23] So your therapist was doing that with you?
David Bokovoy [01:18:24] Yeah, yeah. And. And. And the therapist said. Well, the therapist said. Kind of described it the way you did and said, there's science to it here in these areas. And then it's just part magic, like, okay, let's give it a try. And so I was put into this, in essence, a hypnotic state. And this therapist invited me to go back and visit a time when I was experiencing great Pain. And for me, it was the weekend that the November policy came out. The exclusion policy,
John Dehlin [01:19:04] 2015.
David Bokovoy [01:19:05] Yeah. I mean, I spent the weekend just. Just very. Very upset. I. I was. And I. And I. Anyway, so I.
John Dehlin [01:19:16] You were a church employee at the time.
David Bokovoy [01:19:18] Yeah. Okay. And I. So I. She said, I want you to go back and just see yourself in that. In that situation. And so I did. And I had my eyes closed, and all of a sudden. All of a sudden, just tears just started streaming down through my eyes, and it became very intense. And then I. You know, but it was. There was also just kind of. I don't know, a little bit healing. Just kind of revisit those feelings and understand them a little bit more. And so then after that, we spoke about that for a little bit, and then she invited me. She said, I'd like to do it one more time, but this time I would like you. She's. To go back as you are now and comfort your past self. And she asked, are you the same person now that you were back then? I said, of course not. She said, my life changed dramatically. She said, okay, I'd like you to go back and comfort yourself in that moment, and I want you to bring somebody with you. I'd like you to bring your future self along. Picture your future self, what you want to be, what you want to grow into. I see your future self happy. Emotional regulation. Loves everyone, forgives everyone. Doesn't hold grudges. Yeah. Just this really older, wiser version of myself. And so in this experience, we go back, and I began as myself now in this stage that I'm at, and I began to comfort myself in that moment. And I said things like, I know this is difficult. I know this is frightening. You don't know what the future holds for yourself, your family, or even for your employment. This will be difficult. But what you don't know yet is that you have children who are part of the LGBTQ community. What you don't know yet is that going through this process, you will meet Gary and Ernie, who we've interviewed.
John Dehlin [01:21:33] Yeah, yeah. Amazing, brilliant gay couple. I don't want to minimize them by saying a gay couple.
David Bokovoy [01:21:40] No, it's descriptive. I said, you don't know this yet, but you will meet Gary and Ernie and they will teach you about. They'll teach you to love hiking in the. In the winter time. They will teach you how to live in your body and take care of yourself and try to be younger next year. And they will be two of the closest friends you ever have. You don't know this yet, but you are going to go into the prison system and you're going to help establish a pathway for people who are struggling to and have struggled throughout their lives to have a new future and to be able to earn college degrees. You don't know this yet, but you are going to be very, very happy. So stay the course, do what is right. And it was a hard time because I was called into the church. I was vocal in my opposition. I was called in the church office building. I didn't know I was going to support my family. It was terribly frightening. But then my older, idealized self came into the situation and said to us both, really, stay true to your heart and your convictions and you will grow into me. And it was a really amazing experience. Margi and John, I was very grateful for that session was very profound and transformative.
John Dehlin [01:23:10] Wow. So it's your current self and your future wisest self. Healing, visiting and healing an earlier wounded self.
David Bokovoy [01:23:21] Yeah, that wounded self. That was looking at what I was going to do with my life because I devoted everything to biblical scholarship and church employ. And I didn't know that I could continue with that, given what the leaders had done that I found incredibly unethical and immoral.
Margi Dehlin [01:23:44] Yeah. So powerful.
David Bokovoy [01:23:46] Thank you. I'm grateful to share. If I could just follow up then, I guess because the story doesn't quite end there. The next day I decided to go on my own personal vision quest. And I decided, very Old Testament like, that I'd go by myself up a mountain and that I would try to have this spiritual. I sought out a spiritual experience. So, you know, this is. It's traditionally in indigenous cultures here in North America, such a quest would involve seeking a totem, you know, an anthropomorphized animal, a fox, a wolf, a bear that would serve as the spirit guide and give them advice or counsel that would help direct them throughout their lives. I already knew who my spirit guide was. It's my future self. Right. Older David, who is older, happy, wise and loving and forgiving and all these attributes. And I want to go talk. I want to go. I want to go see him. I want to go talk to him up on the mountain and get some advice. So I go by myself up this mountain and I get all the way up there and a lot of things happened. And then I closed my eyes and I tried to visualize that. That future self. And in my mind I saw my older self and then there was. And. And then my older self said to me, what do you want? And I responded, well, what do you mean? What do you mean, what do I want? You are me. You know what I want. I came all the way up here and went through a lot of things to just get a little advice and counsel. And then in my mind, my older self just sat there with loving, happy eyes and smiled back at me. Didn't say anything, of course. And I was. And I thought. And I'm like, okay, of course. And I thought, of course. My future self didn't say anything to me, for there is no such thing. Right. It's all. It's all in my mind. And then the thought came to me. There is no such thing. So you must be that spiritual guide and future self now. It's time. Be that person today. Strive to become that. And I. It was so powerful, Margi and John, I. It sounds perhaps trivial or insignificant, but for me, it was very emotional. And to realize that that's what I should strive for, I shouldn't. That was the message. Become that. That person today. And it's a journey. And I make mistakes and I hurt people and I'm selfish still. And I. I experience sadness and even feelings of depression, and I. All these things happen. And yet I'm grateful now that I feel I have the tools necessary to work through whatever comes along in life's journey and to love and appreciate every moment. Returning back to what I shared with that. That prisoner in my spirituality.
John Dehlin [01:27:08] Yeah. That story, in some ways reminds me of the many people that we've had on who have shared psychedelic experiences where the insight sounds like something that might be in a Stuart Smalley kind of Saturday Night Live episode. It. It could be easily seen as. Or dismissed as trite. But to the people experience it, I think it's because they feel it. They don't just think it, but they are able to have an experience where they feel something deeply. And that makes all the. The feelings make all the difference. Is that kind of how it was for you?
David Bokovoy [01:27:46] I love that you brought that up. I mean, indigenous peoples around the globe have historically used all sorts of substances to obtain a state of enlightenment or, you know, spiritual ecstasy, mescaline, psilocybin, lots of different things. I'm excited.
John Dehlin [01:28:05] Peyote, ayahuasca.
David Bokovoy [01:28:08] I'm excited that I think we should take advantage of everything that this earth provides. Every herb of the field, if you will. Right. That can.
John Dehlin [01:28:21] Mormon buzzwords, love the field,
David Bokovoy [01:28:26] that can help us live more comfortably and to have better experiences while we're here. So I'm excited that it seems to be that there will be greater opportunities to incorporate some of these things into modern medicine to help with relationships and overcoming trauma, ptsd. I think those things have been shown to be quite effective and I'm excited for that to happen, for sure.
Psychedelics, Legislation, and Personal Transformation
John Dehlin [01:28:55] I received notice this week that a piece of legislation has passed the Utah legislative process that is awaiting Governor Cox's signature. Where psilocybin or magic mushrooms and mdma, which some people associate with, with Molly. But these two psychedelic drugs are, if my intelligence is correct, my information source. They're set to be legalized under medical supervision in the state of Utah, which I did not expect that happening in 2024. If it happens, it could be scuttled.
Speaker D [01:29:35] But.
Margi Dehlin [01:29:36] Well, yeah, the research is growing, for sure.
John Dehlin [01:29:39] I hope for psilocybin and mdma. Yeah.
David Bokovoy [01:29:42] Oh, yeah. Well, I hope Governor Cox signs that he signs some bills this session that I would strongly disagree with and very painful. So it'd be nice to have something good go through like that because I certainly believe I've read and studied quite a bit on these topics and now both in the context of religious experience and in, in therapy, and many people experience great transformation and rebuild relationships and marriages through mdma, which is Molly. That's the same thing. MDMA is different than ecstasy. That's the difference. Ecstasy is, you know, the club drug that is typically used where they will add an amphetamine of some sort versus a stimulant. Whereas the mdma, or Molly as it's known, is often used for couples therapies and it can produce great feelings of love and affection and overcome challenges and problems, is what I've read. I would hope that he would sign that and that people can take full advantage of that in a safe and healthy way. That's lovely, I hope. Sign it. Do something good for us. Governor Cox.
Reflections on Mormon Faith Transitions and Podcast Impact
John Dehlin [01:30:53] Dave, I want to share something, just a personal reflection and observation with you. You know, whatever I have or haven't been able to do in this world, one thing I have done is I've observed tens of thousands of people's faith journeys and it's always very hard. LGBT people will say coming out as gay to my parents was nothing compared to coming out as a non believing Mormon to my parents. You know what I mean? It obviously is associated with depression, anxiety, divorce, suicidality. Like obviously Mormon stories stands on the idea that a religious faith crisis, and specifically a Mormon faith crisis or a faith crisis within a high demand religion context is severe and sometimes deadly, like serious. When I was watching you go through it, I Felt. I don't want to say an impression, like it's the Holy Ghost or something, but like, with my experience, I felt like. Cause I knew you before, I had exchanges with you while you were still a believer. And then I was able to have maybe a little bit of visibility into that transition. And then I was there when you really hit it hard.
Margi Dehlin [01:32:18] Like from a distance, you mean?
John Dehlin [01:32:19] Yeah, as a podcaster and as a friend. Like an Internet friend. A little bit.
David Bokovoy [01:32:24] Well, I've enjoyed our social experiences together first. Both you and Margi, you're lovely people.
John Dehlin [01:32:30] Yeah, yeah. But I'm talking back 2000 and.
David Bokovoy [01:32:32] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:32:33] You know, I'm going back to 2015.
David Bokovoy [01:32:36] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:32:36] Oh, we've got to know each other better since then. I don't think we knew each other super well prior to 2015.
David Bokovoy [01:32:41] Well, not. And we've had a few exchanges. Just Internet stuff.
Margi Dehlin [01:32:44] Yeah, yeah, got it.
John Dehlin [01:32:45] But what I wanted to communicate is I remember having the distinct impression this is going to hit Dave hard. As hard as it is, people don't understand. Mormons can't understand the severity then kind of the next level experience of someone who, like, in their college years, realized that they wanted to become a deep scholar in religious studies, orients their entire graduate and then postgraduate profession on becoming a deep religious scholar in the context of Mormonism commits not only their family's livelihood, their health insurance, their salaries, their retirement, their pensions, but their entire lives predicated on the idea that the Mormon Church is exactly what it claims to be, then you're going to become not just an employee, but like a teacher and an advocate and in some sense, I don't want to say apologist, but a missionary for promoting the welfare of the church and its teachings and its doctrines and its principles and its practices, bringing up young minds, training young minds into this ideology and. And with the idea of if you do it, if you really do it well, you can end up at the Lourdes University, you know, which is kind of like the Notre Dame for Catholics. It's like. And you earned it. And then that's the thing. You, David Bacavoy, you earned it. You earned that spot. And there's a level of intensity and of sacrifice and of commitment that is like the Mormon faith crisis. Triple. You're cubed.
David Bokovoy [01:34:39] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:34:39] You know what I mean?
Speaker D [01:34:40] Where.
John Dehlin [01:34:41] Where the severity of the disappointment, the rejection, the. The grieving, the anger, the disappointment and just the. The disillusion. I don't know. I don't mean to minimize anyone else's experience, but I've met some of your friends who were also in ces. I've met people who became very suicidal, realizing as a CS employee that their whole life was going to change and they weren't going to be able to get a decent job comparable their whole career trajectories were going to change and they weren't prepared for it. But more importantly, how much they sacrificed for something that just like in an instant evaporated and that they were again indoctrinating others into that thing that now they realize isn't true. There's a level of trauma, of complex PTSD and of grief and anger that I think people in your situation experience that the rest of us can't quite understand.
David Bokovoy [01:35:50] I think that's fair to say based upon my experiences again with friends of mine who've been in church education or scholars. Yeah, there is an added level, a layer there. Now, I was fortunate in that because I was so passionate about Mormon scholarship. I got off my mission and I was up in the archives of the BYU, you know, archives, looking at B.H. roberts material, collecting everything from Bruce R. McConkie that I could. And I came across, as I shared last in the last time, the McConkie letter that was written to Eugene England about the Adam God theory. I realized at that point that I was so passionate about this. I wanted to learn everything that I could about it and that it meant everything to me, but that I would have to shift my, my paradigm to accommodate new information and still make the church be true. And so that's what I did from 1990 till whenever. And so my journey was always one where learning, learning a little bit more learning and then shifting and shifting and becoming more progressive, more liberal, more open minded on things. And so once it kind of, so it was a, it was a, it was more gradual, it was a longer, it was a longer experience than most people have. And so it, it makes it different in that sense, I think, as opposed to somebody just kind of feels like the wool was, you know, carpet taken or wool covered, either eyes, whatever the metaphor is. So it was a little bit different in that. But you also bring up a good point in your question. How does one then look back upon all those years of teaching and indoctrination of others? And I wouldn't, it's difficult. But at the same time I was, what I realized was that I was teaching my own religion. I was using Mormonism to teach my own religion. It was a springboard to what I truly believe in. And so all of those lessons, all of those things that I was teaching students to think critically, to be open to scholarship and different perspectives, to question and to use that as part of their spirituality, to focus on loving others and service and kindness and then use. And I really articulated Mormonism that way as a springboard that they should use to get to a place of happiness and joy and love. And so it was my own religion. And what happened that was difficult is I realized that my religion was incompatible with the leadership of the church. And so it's not as difficult as it might seem, I guess, because of the extended nature of my faith crisis or whatever it will be that took years and years and years and years, but also because I, during that time, I was always a black sheep in ces, constantly in trouble, always in problems. And part of that was because I was adhd, probably. I'm sure I wouldn't blame myself. And then part of it was just because I was teaching my religion. And my religion would not always accord with institutional Mormonism. In fact, it doesn't accord with it at all. And it just took an experience like that for me to realize that I needed to disengage and unfortunately, John, from my. And Margi. Sorry, I need to clarify this. I'm looking at John, Margi and John. And what I learned was it was very helpful to me about this process, is how important relationships are and connections, and that we're all on a journey and we make mistakes, and I've made mistakes, and we all do this. The biggest mistake that the church leaders make, in my opinion, their biggest sin, if you will. They know the statistics. They know every single family in the church has people in their family unit that are leaving or have left. They should be, as spiritual leaders and guides of this institute of that institution, that it should be paramount to them to preach ways that families can retain connection when someone leaves. But they don't do that. Instead, they do just the opposite. They tell our family members that are still in. Don't listen to nonbelievers. Never accept the advice of a nonbeliever. They say, you know, and they paint us in ways that are difficult and problematic. And actually they encourage separation. The LDS doctrine of family is painful. It is painful because it is not. Family is forever or families are forever. Families can be together forever. If everyone adheres to this specific covenant path and gives over their agency to church leaders, if that transpires, then the family can retain the unit. But if not, a separation will transpire in the heavens. And so emphasis is not given here on earth, then by our. I should. There and they're not mine anymore. Their leaders are not giving them information to maintain human connection and bonds and love with those who separate. And that is their biggest sin, in my opinion. And it hurts. It hurts that they do that. I wish they would not. I. I wish they would do better.
Margi Dehlin [01:42:11] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:42:15] If there were someone you think about, like Jeremy Runnels in the CES letter, or Mike with LDS discussions, or John Larsen with Mormon expression, if there were a person maybe with the background who could very effectively create a book or a podcast series or a YouTube channel to kind of deconstruct Mormonism, it would seem like your experience and your knowledge base and your brain and your intellect could be very effective at that. And yet that's not you. So far, as far as I understand it, you haven't felt called to do that, although I think you could be very effective at it. I'm curious if you have values, if there are values that you have that have kept you from considering sort of that path or not, or is it just busy or, you know, other interests.
David Bokovoy [01:43:12] Yeah, it's a great question. Thank you. You're right. I haven't felt called to do that. Part of it is. I don't know. I really. I guess what it comes down to is that I. Again, I love human connection. I want to be with people. I want to be with them face to face. I want to be. And that can happen with podcasts. I don't mean that, but I like being boots on the ground.
Margi Dehlin [01:43:48] Yeah.
David Bokovoy [01:43:49] That's what I like to do. I like those interactions. So.
John Dehlin [01:43:53] But also, there's a divisiveness that comes from entering into this space.
David Bokovoy [01:43:58] Oh, yeah.
John Dehlin [01:43:59] Dealing with truth claims. And I wonder if that's something that you don't maybe resonate with as much, is the. The polarization, the divisiveness that comes from trying to address truth claims head on in. In all the different ways one could. Not that you don't go there ever, but.
David Bokovoy [01:44:17] Yeah, I know, you're right. It's. It's the problem that I have with interacting with apologetics at any level. It can be very frustrating to go that. And it gets contentious, for sure. Again, circling back to Brene Brown, that book has just been so helpful, and she talks about humiliation versus shame. And oftentimes what happens on the Internet and in apologetics, whether it's apologetics for political or social issues or certainly for religion, is humiliation takes place. And I participated in it, and I didn't understand it, even when I tried to be kind in correcting someone using My privilege of scholarship and information. I had to correct them online for something they said that creates humiliation and humiliating humiliation is so damaging to people. In fact, Rene Brown refers to studies that have been done on mass shooting in America. And one common denominator that the shooters all have in common is they have experienced intense humiliation. Humiliation is when you believe you're right, but someone made you feel wrong and you feel, you feel you're angry and you're upset over that. Humiliation inevitably leads to violence, self inflicted or otherwise. I'm not saying everybody's humiliated becomes a mass shooter. There's other factors, of course, but it is a contributing one and that is huge to recognize. And when I understood that, I realized that even unwillfully I participated in that. And so I made a decision. I don't ever want to humiliate anyone ever again. I'm going to try to never do that because humiliation is so painful and I've done it and I still do it, but I certainly try not to. And my goodness, there's a lot of it that happens in Mormon apologetics and it creates feelings of divisiveness and, and anger and things that I'm trying to let go of and move beyond.
Margi Dehlin [01:46:35] Yeah, I so appreciate that. And I really feel like it fits with your kind of decision, your resolve and even just noticing when there are certain things in the soil of being online that when that aren't there that you are more apt to have in person, they naturally exist there. So in other words, like it feels like it's much easier to get into a place of humiliating someone or when you don't really know them and when you're, you know, not in this place of viewing this person as complicated, real with children, with all the things that tend to come with in person relationships. And so I guess what I'm saying is that makes a lot of sense to me the in person at least there are some barriers. You're looking at someone in the eye, you're, you know, you have more of those things supports I think as a human being with you when you're in person. So it can still happen, but at least it feels like online they're just is some environmental things that.
David Bokovoy [01:47:53] Yeah, well said, Margi. And you lose tone, facial expressions, things like that. That would soften perhaps a statement at a time. And it's become such a problem in our society. We're seeing this certainly in United States politics right now on both sides particularly though it's just once we recognize that humility as Brene Brown has shown the humiliation is one of the contributing factors to mass shootings. We should be adamant that our political leaders do not humiliate their opponents or anyone else. If they are humiliating people, and they are, then they have no business being a leader of this country, engaging in that type of humiliation, calling them names, making up names for them, doing the types of things to humiliate your opponents. And yet we're putting people like that into power. And it strikes me as really hypocritical of us, particularly those, for example, who turn to gun legislation and say, oh, it's a mental health crisis. It's a mental health issue. It's not a gun issue. Okay, well, the mental health issue is humiliation. So you better not elect a man who goes out and humiliates people if you are telling people that that's the problem with gun control, because that's hypocritical. And my goodness, I live in a state that has just gone forward and was filled with Latter Day Saints, and they have gone and they're electing a man who has made his entire career doing just that. And that hurts me. It just hurts that we would do such a thing as a society, as a state. We need to be better than that. I want to be better.
John Dehlin [01:49:49] I share that. And I'm also mindful this is an and not a but. I'm mindful that each side can speak and act in ways that make the other feel humiliated.
David Bokovoy [01:50:04] Oh, for sure.
John Dehlin [01:50:05] It's. And there's different ways that humiliation can be experienced. And from. From one side, it's just feeling like they think you're dumb, feeling like they think you're not sophisticated, feeling like they think you don't love. Or even just like, instead of doing best faith arguments steel manning people's positions. Straw manning people's positions in ways that. But, you know, we have to be careful. I think if there's a way to get out of this polarization, it's to realize that all sides have to really figure out how to show that Christlike love and respect to the other side, whichever side you're on. Right.
David Bokovoy [01:50:53] I agree.
Margi Dehlin [01:50:54] Yeah. And like, going against it unilaterally as a tactic. Humiliation as a tactic.
John Dehlin [01:51:01] Yeah. Yeah. There's this book, How Minds Change, that is doing a really good. David McCraney. Just talking about this idea of deep canvassing where the way to change hearts and minds, for example, in LGBT stuff, isn't to quote them stats. It's not even to say you're causing deaths of youth. Your beliefs cause youth to die. That's a form of humiliation.
David Bokovoy [01:51:23] Sure is true.
John Dehlin [01:51:26] But yeah, yeah, the truth. But yeah, whether you quote global warming stats or gun control stats or questions
Margi Dehlin [01:51:34] or someone on whatever on like tax ancient texts, it's true.
John Dehlin [01:51:38] I mean evidence creates, when presented to someone whose identity is closely tied to a religious or a political position, factual evidence actually strengthens their conviction around their position. So it's not going to be facts or evidence that persuades this book how minds change. It's question asking. It's sort of the street epistemology
Speaker D [01:52:07] that
John Dehlin [01:52:08] we've covered here on Mormon stories. It's asking people questions, showing them love, making them feel safe, having dialogue and then asking them questions and through that Socratic dialogue, having them do their own work of processing the foundations of their and implications of their positions and their decisions. But nobody can be pushed into changing their mind. That's a journey they've got to go on with a loving, inquisitive guide.
David Bokovoy [01:52:40] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:52:41] And that's like, I don't know if there's harder work.
David Bokovoy [01:52:43] Yeah, I agree with you. Absolutely.
John Dehlin [01:52:46] It's tricky.
Margi Dehlin [01:52:47] And is that built upon also kind of the work of Jonathan Haidt where it's more emotional, it's informative. I know, it's more emotion based as opposed facts or cognitive brain based.
John Dehlin [01:52:59] Yeah, for sure.
Margi Dehlin [01:53:00] That informs people, that changes people.
John Dehlin [01:53:02] And I'm reminded of that most. I had a conversation with you, Dave, where I was noting that ex Mormons sometimes are angriest at progressive Mormons. It's weird because you think we would all be angry at the orthodox, but sometimes ex Mormons are particularly angry at like the Richard Bushman's or the Terrell Givens of the world or the Patrick Masons because it's like they should know better and they're somehow deceitful or lying or misleading or doing more harm. I remember a conversation with you because you were friends with Terrell Givens. Maybe you still are, but at least you certainly were. And I was trying to say, don't you think progressive Mormonism is problematic? And do you remember what you said?
Friendship, Fitness, Nutrition, and Rebuilding the Body
David Bokovoy [01:53:44] I remember the conversation. It was on my roof.
John Dehlin [01:53:47] Yeah, right.
David Bokovoy [01:53:50] But I don't know what I said. What did I say?
John Dehlin [01:53:53] You said it's a soft landing, that progressive Mormonism is a soft landing and if people don't have that soft landing, they can have a hard landing. Right.
David Bokovoy [01:54:01] That's been my experience. I'm glad I said that. I think that's true. But I, I, I think one of the things that I have learned, okay. Because I started because My children that are part of adult children now, that are part of the LGBTQ community, experience trauma in the church. And it's real and it is significant, and it hurts my heart. And I have had to deal with that. I have had to deal with that personally. And thinking I should have known better, I should have disaffiliated sooner and kept my children from experiencing the trauma that they have. And I wish I could go back and turn back the clock and do that. But. Yeah, but what we. I think what we have to realize is this leaving the church to a great extent comes down to luck or privilege. It can, sure. I think. I think it's luck, too. For example. For example, think about my own situation. I was for years just shifting paradigm, Shifting paradigm. And I loved the church so much. It was my career. I loved publishing books and articles and helping people make sense of their faith in light of critical, difficult issues. I loved it. I loved teaching. I loved institute. I loved seminary. I loved it all so much. It was so wonderful to me that had the brethren not issued that policy when they did, I would have continued. Right. If somebody at the last minute, I don't know, would have had the knowledge and the ability and the moral aptitude to step forward and say one of the members of the 12 and say that doctrine. That policy is against our doctrine. It is harmful. It is hurtful. We can't release that. And the first president would have said, oh, you're right. Okay, we won't do that.
John Dehlin [01:56:17] Oaks and Nelson backed down when fictitious Holland.
David Bokovoy [01:56:20] I would have just kept going.
John Dehlin [01:56:22] You would have been still teaching Seminary Institute.
David Bokovoy [01:56:25] I can't say that for sure. Yeah, I can't say that for sure because I don't think I would. I think that I was on it, but it would have lasted a lot longer than it did for. Absolutely. I would have continued eventually, though. I would have. I just think. I just feel I have too many differences and issues with church leadership to feel comfortable in that environment for the rest of my life. So I would have left, I'm sure, but it would have taken a lot longer. So what I'm trying to suggest is that that was luck. It was luck that that didn't transpire and that I experienced that right now. And if we recognize that, then. Then I don't need to feel quite so guilty for having not left earlier, because part of it comes to. Yeah, you're realizing. And the moral aptitude, I believe, to recognize the problems and the challenges and then understanding part of it is all of that, because I Do believe it's. People should recognize the hurt and the trauma that is produced by the church, particularly for its gay members. Yet leaving is not just that. It comes down to luck. The luck and the fortune of this privilege, if you want to use that, of the situation and circumstance that you are allowed or that you can go through such a thing. And so everyone is on their own journey. There are people still there that are. That will leave eventually. They've been progressive for years and years, and they'll go through things the same thing, and they'll probably think, oh, why didn't I leave earlier? I could have had this experience and my children could have done this or that. But it's important to remember it's not all on us. Part of it is luck. Part of it is luck. And. And that. That should free us of a little bit of the. The guilt. It has me just a little bit
John Dehlin [01:58:17] that's reminding me of how we started with the free will. Free will conversation around incarcerated people really quickly. There are a few slides that we put together, and we're gonna maybe jump out of order a tiny bit and come back. But let's start. We'll come back to the prison stuff, but let's start with this photo that you wanted to show that represents kind of your journey around fitness.
David Bokovoy [01:58:43] Yeah, thank you.
John Dehlin [01:58:44] Is that all right?
David Bokovoy [01:58:45] Yeah, yeah, sure.
John Dehlin [01:58:46] All right, so I'm gonna show you. Tell us. I'm putting this video up now. Those of you who are listening, audio only, you'll want to come to, I don't know, a couple two hours into this interview and on YouTube and look at this photo. But, Dave, can you describe for the viewing audience what this photo, what these two photos are?
David Bokovoy [01:59:04] I did want to share and why
John Dehlin [01:59:05] you wanted to share.
David Bokovoy [01:59:06] I did want to share. I don't know that. And then, yeah, showing my. Myself at different stages to 60,000 listeners or whatever. You guys, how many do you have that?
John Dehlin [01:59:16] I mean. Yeah, I mean, we're.
David Bokovoy [01:59:17] You got a lot.
John Dehlin [01:59:18] So the photo on the left, describe it to those. Okay.
David Bokovoy [01:59:21] The photo on the left is me. Right. That's 2012. Okay. And that is right at the. That is right when I was. You know, it. I was teaching at BYU in the. In. In the religion department at that time. And I was using food as. As a drug to. To deal with some of the depression that I was talking about earlier. Right. And I had no. And I realized it, and it was causing problems. And then I went on a journey towards trying to be more healthy and fit. And I started at that point, would
John Dehlin [01:59:53] it make sense to say how much you weighed or would you rather not say?
David Bokovoy [01:59:56] That we can talk about. Sure. I don't know. Probably about £250 at the time. But weight is irrelevant, though, because of muscle mass. Weight is irrelevant. It really doesn't matter. But I. But, yeah, probably about 245. 250 pounds, 5 foot 9.
John Dehlin [02:00:14] Yeah. Okay.
David Bokovoy [02:00:16] And so what I. And I realized, okay, I got to make some changes. And so I started to make some changes. I started to exercise and eat differently, and it was a fun, wonderful journey. But then I have a friend named James and he's a fantastic yoga instructor. This was years ago and I was talking to James and I said, james, I feel like I need more flexibility in my life. If I start practicing yoga regularly with you, how long would it take me before I really started to feel the difference in flexibility? And he said, oh, David, that is the wrong question to ask. Yoga is not about becoming. It's about experiencing your body in the here and now. And I don't know, it struck me and that changed. I stopped caring about trying to reach a weight or be a specific weight or to look even a specific way. Instead, when my mind shifted towards, okay, I have this body. It is a vessel for my consciousness. It's the one that I get. I want every day to feel as healthy and as happy as I possibly can in my mind and in my body. I'm going to focus on going and exercising and feeling and concentrating what it feels like to sweat, what it feels like to lose your breath because your heart is racing and feel those things of the body and appreciate those sensations and to experience life to the fullness. So that's why I feel passionate about sharing it. Because, yeah, you can look at the different pictures and. Okay, yeah, so describe the right. So the right is me now. So there's me now. And I just took a picture of that and I'm like, okay, this is the journey. And even though I'm saying it doesn't matter, I wanted to show visually, I guess, what that was like. So me on the left, you can see that I'm dealing with the depression, I'm dealing with the challenges at byu. I'm dealing with the problems that I see with Mormonism and feeling discontent, all these problems. And then now me today, I'm a totally different person physically, emotionally, and I don't know, I feel that. In fact, I ran into some friends from high school. Here I am like in my 50, 52 now, or whatever. I ran into some friends from high school school. And they're like, there you are, there you are. They recognize you'd never looked like yourself from the way that you always were. Every year I'm trying to become more and more of who I am and who I was always supposed to be. So as a teenager, I loved surfing and I loved weight training and I loved running and I loved doing all of those things. Things. And then I lost track of that. And so now I'm just trying to become the person that I. The best version of myself that I possibly can be.
John Dehlin [02:03:28] Yeah, I love it. And give. Give kind of a quick description of your eating paradigm and of your exercise paradigm, because I know you. You've gone deep.
David Bokovoy [02:03:40] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:03:40] In both of those. Just as a little starting point or tip.
David Bokovoy [02:03:44] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:03:44] For those who would like to see that sort of bodily transformation.
David Bokovoy [02:03:48] Oh, my goodness. So it's for everyone, regardless of where you're at, Even people in, you know, that are in retirement homes and places like that. Studies have shown that weight resistance exercise are essential. It's especially essential for. I love to see now when back in the day you wouldn't see as many women in gyms and things like that. We're afraid of getting too big or something like that. But the reality is the more muscle that a person has, the more calories they naturally consume. So one of the biggest problems that people make with a diet, for example, they'll cut calories and then they'll start doing a lot of cardio. And then what happens? They lose muscle. And if you cannot continue on that same trajectory, which no one can, then all of a sudden it's actually worse for you long term. So the key to this is really is not as much, in fact, people shouldn't do, as most people shouldn't do as much cardio as people think that they should do. Now, you need that cardio, of course, for your vascular system, but it's about three quarters of an exercise routine from the studies that I've read, should be about weight resistance training and any other. The cardio. That's kind of the way I live. And then on the weekends, look for physical activities to get out and do something. A bike ride. And my passion, as I've mentioned, is hiking.
John Dehlin [02:05:29] Anyone who follows your Facebook sees the photos that you share. Hiking with Coco, with Gary and others.
David Bokovoy [02:05:38] Yes.
John Dehlin [02:05:39] That's part of a lifestyle for you.
David Bokovoy [02:05:40] Oh, yeah. Every weekend it should be something like that. Something that we do physically to get out and do some movement. And then if we commit to that perspective and Again, returning back, I think people should almost get rid of the scale. You know what I mean? Almost get rid of it, because it really doesn't matter. I mean, you could weigh 500 pounds, and if you had 2% body fat, which would not be healthy, but still. Right? You see what I'm saying? It's not the weight and everyone's difference, but that's what I have seen and the studies have shown and has been very effective for me and that I feel very passionate about. In fact, Carolyn is actually going through and learning to become a personal fitness trainer right now. And certification, it's something that we share in common every day. I look forward to going to the gym with her in the morning. And at first, for a while, I thought about going to the gym. I'm going to the gym so that I'm in good shape so I can go out and hike, because I love hiking. And so I'd get on the elliptical or something that I didn't really want to do. I'm like, this is going to help me snowshoe with Gary and Ernie. And I would. And then I shifted and I realized, wait, I'm not just going for that. I'm going because I love this experience. And to change your life in that way is difficult, of course, but it's a process. The first thing that happens when people start a new pattern such as that, let's say someone decides, I want to go to the gym, I want to eat better, the first thing to recognize is that it's hard. It's difficult. Anybody that says that they can give you a quick change fast in terms of your body type and your health, fitness run, just run as far as you can. It's not like that. So it's hard. It must be difficult. But if you continue with the pattern, eventually it becomes less hard and it becomes a habit. And if it becomes a habit, then it's a little bit easier. In the habit of going to the gym, you're in the habit of eating healthy, you're in the habit of going and doing physical activities on the weekend. And if you continue with that habit long enough, it becomes a hobby. Right? It becomes a hobby. It's my hobby to go to the gym, and it's my hobby. It's something I like to do. But you continue with that hobby long enough, you get to the last one. And that's where you have to live that way.
John Dehlin [02:08:00] Like a lifestyle.
David Bokovoy [02:08:01] Yeah, you have to. If I don't go to the gym one day, something is wrong. Something is wrong. And I'll indulge. And I.
John Dehlin [02:08:10] Of course.
David Bokovoy [02:08:10] And eating habits are up and down, but when they're down like that, I don't feel good because I have to live the way I live now. I've gone through those four H's, which I actually learned from a friend of mine who. Former seminary teacher who is now very famous on the BYU religion channels. I see him directing things. When I'm at the gym, I'm like, oh, there's Ben Lomu. His four H's. Right, the four H's. You know, it goes from. It's hard. Hobby. Oh, sorry, hard. And then habit, then the hobby, and then you have to do it. And then once you get to that, you've changed your life.
John Dehlin [02:08:54] Nice. And you mentioned eating, you know, changing eating habits. Has changing your eating habits been an important part of this transformation?
David Bokovoy [02:09:03] Absolutely, for sure. Yeah. In fact, and I'm so grateful for my life companion Carolyn, again, I return to her. She has really taught me a lot about nutrition and has helped me to realize that food is medicine. Food is medicine. And that may seem like an overreach, but it is not. It affects us and our emotional state, our hormone levels, everything.
John Dehlin [02:09:30] And is protein and veggies. Is that a way to simplify the transformation or is it way more?
David Bokovoy [02:09:37] Sure, yeah. We want to reduce those complex carbs. We want to eat good carbs like the vegetables and. Yeah, certainly protein, particularly because we should be trying to put on some muscle mass. Yeah, yeah. And I'm not opposed to. In fact, I started with, I don't know, a couple I've done. It's been a long journey for me. I've done the south beach diet and keto, and there are different things that I had tried at different points of my life, certainly. So I understand that. And there's a benefit to those things. If somebody wants to do that to jump start. I have done that, and I've seen that to be very effective because, you know, I mean, if you. If you. It's kind of exciting to do something extreme like one of those extreme diets, and then just see the changes and the transformation happen quickly. And that can be psychologically very powerful. So if someone uses it as a jump start, that's great, but we have to remember that it's only a jump start. And then that has to shift into healthy eating habits and healthy exercise routines because we want to live a fullness in the here and now and in our bodies. And when that mind, at least for me, when that shifts, that's. That's. When real change turns.
John Dehlin [02:10:59] So it's not that there's wrong foods or bad foods, it's. It's just having balanced.
David Bokovoy [02:11:04] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:11:05] Intuitive kind of eating.
David Bokovoy [02:11:07] Oh yeah. I. It. Balance is key. I still love my ice cream and oh my goodness, they just put a Jack in the box next to my house. I grew up in California, so I'm all excited about Jack in the Box, but I don't look back in the day. Back in the day I was ID Taco Bell and Jack in the Box probably or something like that every day for lunch. And now it's like, now it's just a treat. So balance for sure. Balance is the key. So an extreme diet can work in the beginning, but then balance overall has to be maintained. Okay, I think. Thanks for letting me share that.
Margi Dehlin [02:11:38] I mean, one thing that I do think is worth noting about you is I think where, you know, if we're going to look at kind of research, diets tend to fail. And sometimes I think part of the reasoning of that is kind of where, where we come from, if we come from again, this place of kind of shame around our bodies or being really critical or very perfectionistic. Right. Which diets can kind of take that a little bit and run with it. It's like a very different experience from what I'm feeling as you're describing it, which is very much around nourishing a lot of connecting with yourself. I deserve what you deserve, feeling in inspired to kind of towards some of these things. And I think sometimes that really, that framing, that root of which, which route you're starting from scarcity versus abundance, you know, that there's something inherently shameful about your body to begin with versus on a level saying I really care about how I feel and I'm curious how I could feel better. Like what could. Right. Those roots really, really make a difference, I think, in where you go and your experience, I think with your body. And that's what I really, I feel that from you, this, this energy, this curiosity, this sense of like love and respect for your body and the experience that you have living in it. Do you want to talk for a minute about that too? Because there, that before picture to me really feels like also maybe you were feeling more at odds with your body, disconnected from your body, dissociating from your body, as opposed to maybe what's the difference and what does it mean to be in one's body more?
Body Image, Patriarchy, and Deconstructing Mormon Culture
David Bokovoy [02:13:38] First of all, Margi, that was so well articulated, the things that you shared in that question. And I loved your perspective Talking about how a lot of it is connected with shame. That is true. Men experience that. But our society sets it up for women to experience it. Body shame, particularly at such a deep level, is so tragic. It's frustrating to me particularly. Being a woman is hazardous to one's health, the studies have shown. It's just, I mean, the medical attention, the lack of medical research and attention that has gone into women's health as women go through the transitions of life, of perimenopause and then menopause. These are difficult stages and transitions that all women pass through. And yet we don't talk about these things. And it's frustrating to me in so many levels to see how that specifically affects women. And the way the sensitivity and the words that you expressed there were very important. Thank you. You know, I. You're right. What it was for me at least, is that picture on the left. I was only in my mind. I was reading, I was researching, I was publishing, I was doing all of the things that a scholar would do and I was thinking about topics and trying to. I was in my mind and it was like. I was like I was a mind dragging around the body in a way. And that's. That's what came to mind when I. When you shared what you. You did, Margi. Thank you. I was a mind dragging around a body. And that's what I didn't want to be anymore. I wanted to be a whole self. And so, yeah, it's I. To incorporate meditation, to incorporate daily exercise, good eating habits. These are things that help produce not just longevity, but happiness, at least is what I've found. And I'm grateful for those who have taught me and for the journey that I'm still undertaking because it's always up and down, but I don't think there's an arrival.
John Dehlin [02:15:57] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:15:57] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:15:59] Thanks for sharing that with us. And it's fun because there's this idea that, oh, you can't show that before and after because people are going to think you're being prideful, that you're boasting or showing off. But the truth is we can learn from and get inspired by people that figure stuff out. And who doesn't want to figure out a better mind, body, harmony and connection? So thanks for overcoming those unproductive stigmas.
David Bokovoy [02:16:25] And yeah, I love people and I'm an open book too much. So that's why I'm doing this. But yeah, no, for me, it's not about that. It is really about. It truly is. I had to abandon, I mean, people I still care about what I look like. I don't want to dress inappropriately or get my beard too long, which I've done in the past, or, or whatever it might be. But that's just not a focus any longer, especially at my age. It's about happiness and well being. And once that happened, that's when it was no longer a battle for me, really. That's when it was no longer an issue. So thank you, Margi, that was lovely.
John Dehlin [02:17:11] You mentioned Dave wanting us to talk about how you had to kind of deconstruct the effect of patriarchy on you.
David Bokovoy [02:17:20] Yes.
John Dehlin [02:17:20] And in your relationship with Carolyn.
David Bokovoy [02:17:23] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:17:23] Now you may have already touched on some of that, but is there more you wanted to say about that?
David Bokovoy [02:17:27] Maybe just a little bit. Yeah. I went through, you know, a time where I, I was doing some self reflection and I realized that I had still retained some of the patriarchal views that I had received, indoctrinated into, culturally appropriated, whatever. And I thought, and it was very painful for me when I realized that because even as a Latter Day Saint, I identified as a Mormon male feminist. I, I was sensitive, I felt sensitive to these topics and issues for most of my life. And I, and yet, you know, what happened was that it's hard when you're, you know, you, you publish articles and you write books and do things like that and you have people come and they say nice things about you and you feel good. Oh, that book helped me. Oh, I loved your article. I loved this. I loved the pot Mormon stories and, or these, whatever it might be. On the one hand it feels good. On the other hand it feels very uncomfortable to me. And one of the reasons why is because I crave connection. And so it's not like it's not, oh, look at me, or I did this or I did that and it's, this is me, this is my journey, this is what I've experienced. I want to share it with you and then I want to learn from you and I want to connect with you. I want to be authentic, I want to be open. And that's one of the greatest benefits of the journey that I have been on is I feel I've been able to be more authentic, as are those my friends. I think it's hard to be authentic as a Latter Day Saint when one is trying to live in accordance with the expectations and demands that are placed upon a person and always showing that they are living that way, even with their friends and family members. It's hard to just be authentic and open about Challenges and problems and growth and intimacy is what I truly crave. Intimacy. And intimacy has to happen, I think, when we open up and share and are authentic. And that's one of the most beautiful things that happens in leaving a high demand religion is an ability to be authentic and to be you yourself and accept others for who they are and then just learn to love the diversity and make everyone your tribe. It's a beautiful joy journey.
John Dehlin [02:20:17] And do you get a sense that maybe patriarchy is. It's expressed in Mormonism. It can be a burden to intimacy between spouses, let's say, or others.
David Bokovoy [02:20:30] Absolutely. I mean, I think I'll speak as a man, I'll speak to men. And what I think we need to learn is that the patriarchy doesn't just damage the life experience of women, which it does. It's destructive, it's deadly, amongst other things. But what the patriarchy does is it actually makes life very difficult and sometimes unbearable for men as well. It is highly problematic. And to the extent that we retain that in society, and particularly in religious context, it is highly problematic. I. When I realized, and what I had retained was that I realized that, you know, when people started giving me the accolades, I felt kind of good about myself. And then it's inevitably kind of, I started to think in my mind, I realized I felt like I was maybe a little bit better even than Carolyn, my life companion and best friend and connected with. Because as a man.
John Dehlin [02:21:46] Because you have all these worldly, acknowledged accomplishments.
David Bokovoy [02:21:50] Yeah. And that just. There's just something about. For example. And women do it as well. If you watch, I mean, you can listen to. For example, you can be in a room and a woman can say something in the room. And people may listen, they may not listen, but then a man will say something. Even that woman who said something before will turn and engage in that and give respect to that view because it's articulated by a male voice, we see that. And I have been victim to that. And not only that, but it has hurt those who I have loved. And when I realized to the extent that even as a post Mormon that I had retained a little bit of that and I wasn't aware of, was connected with that deep, dark moment that I talked about where I realized I needed to make some changes. And I'm so grateful for it because my wife and I, and I call her that because really she's my life companion. I mean, like the term wife anymore, truth be told. We have a relationship based upon equality now and a relationship between men and men. Or whatever women and women or whatever the situation is when you're in a relationship with people and it's based upon equality and there's not a superior or an inferior, but both are respected. It makes life so much better for everyone. And certainly they've shown, the studies have shown the more we can rid patriarchy from our society, everything gets better. Politics get better, people's love lives get better. Everything gets better. So it's something that I feel very passionate about that when I recognized I was still being affected by it a little bit, it was very hard for me. And I'm glad. I'm glad that I went through what I went through so that I could. So that I could become better.
Parenting, Substances, and Life Beyond the Church
John Dehlin [02:23:59] I've got a couple other micro topics I just want to run by you. One is parenting. Somehow the Mormon Church seems to condition us that you can't be. You can't raise healthy, happy kids. You can't be your best parent unless you're a faithful, orthodox Mormon. And that if you're trying to raise kids not as an orthodox believer believing Mormon, good luck, you're going to raise unhealthy children, to put it kindly.
David Bokovoy [02:24:26] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:24:28] Do you want to just. Do you have any comments to make about, like, how your transformation, maybe outside of the church, has impacted your quality of parenting or effectiveness of parenting?
David Bokovoy [02:24:41] Yeah. Thank you. It's tough for me to talk about it at too deep a level because my children were quite a bit older when we started going through our disaffiliation. And, you know, parenting adult children is its own topic. Right. And I'm sure you guys are much better at it than I am, but. So I don't have a lot of experience of. I don't have any experience when it comes to raising small children or young children outside of Mormonism. It wasn't my experience as a parent, but I have seen. I mentioned Faith Erickson and Brett Erickson, her partner, and the wonder. I love to watch them interact with their children and to teach them healthy mental and moral perspectives, to teach them in a way that doesn't indoctrinate shame, unfortunately, sexual purity and modesty, it inevitably produces shame. And shame is very damaging to people's psychological health. So there are ways that I've seen it accomplished very effectively, and I celebrate that. And I think what happens is that those parents that succeed at it realize that their children still need a community. They still need to find opportunities to socially engage and interact with others. And to do that, and then to have open conversations with children as well and ask them how they feel. Do you think that's wrong or is that right? Or is this. What do you think about this? And then treating them. I've watched Carolyn, my partner, do that a lot. She does that with our grandchildren as well. And it's just incredible to see that happen. Our grandchildren are in a family. My daughter is very active, eldest daughter, lds. And so those interactions can be difficult and challenging, of course, for families, as we've discussed already. But we have such a love for our daughter and it's so reciprocated. And for our grandchildren, in fact, just got back last week from taking care of them for 10 days. I had experience with my grandson because he's getting a little older now. And he said, grandpa, why don't you go to church? And I said, oh, I do go to church. He said, you do? I said, yes, Grandma and I always go to church. We go to church every weekend in the mountains.
Margi Dehlin [02:27:22] That's right.
David Bokovoy [02:27:24] That was enough for him to. It made sense to him, I guess at some level he didn't ask anything after. So, yeah, it's. I
John Dehlin [02:27:34] love it. Do you have, you know, one of the places people can maybe get themselves into trouble a little bit is with alcohol or substances or even certain types of sexual exploration. And I have no idea what do you have or haven't even thought of in that regard. Do you have advice, particularly around substances that you would want to share to help people navigate what can be tricky?
David Bokovoy [02:28:06] Sure. I think especially leaving the church is as painful as it is. And disassociating with Mormonism, the shame that families and friends can put upon you, you for that. It's so hard. And then it can be difficult for people to control substances. They can start to rely upon them as a crutch. I mentioned that I did that for three days, three nights straight in a difficult time. My advice is balance. It's the same as everything. I still love to drink a beer once in a while and I still enjoy it. Good whiskey. These are things that are really wonderful to experience and that can help create friendships and bonds and help relax and have some of the greatest experiences people can have. Dancing and having a good time. And they can also lead to damaging relationships and even incarceration. So the key is balance. It's always balanced. And when we find ourselves out of balance, it's time to then reassess and reevaluate and to move forward. But I do not think that Latter Day Saints should post Mormon should fear such substances. Now, there are some. I know, John, that you don't drink. And I respect that. I understand alcoholism and people's families and things and adhd. People like myself, myself have a propensity towards addictive behaviors. It's something I have to watch. And I've talked about having problems with eating and things like that. It happens. But then we just. But I think the important thing is to never be too hard on ourselves as well and realize that it's a journey and it's always okay to make a mistake and then to reassess and go forward. I guess that's my advice is that
John Dehlin [02:30:06] is
David Bokovoy [02:30:08] not to be afraid. But I'm not encouraging anybody to do anything they want to do. But still, if that's something that people feel they want to experience in life, balance. Balance is the key.
Bridge-Building Scholarship and Education Inside Prison
John Dehlin [02:30:23] Thank you for sharing that. We have a couple of slides we wanted to make sure. And talk about. But one, I'll just go ahead and refer back to a couple slides on your work at the prison and then a video. I think it would be nice to kind of just share some of that. Just to give people a sense for your work.
David Bokovoy [02:30:42] Sure.
John Dehlin [02:30:43] And then we'll talk a little bit about your kind of bridge building scholarship. That will be a good segue to our next episode.
David Bokovoy [02:30:51] Oh great. Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:30:52] But I'll turn your attention to the slides. Do you want to talk a bit little. Just a little bit about. And you'll have to look at that. But also talking to the mic. So it's tricky.
David Bokovoy [02:31:00] Oh yeah. This first slide then is an op ed piece that I published on the importance of providing education in the prison environment and how transformative it is. Talked about how it just. It's a no brainer that we should facilitate such opportunities. The reciditism rate, meaning those who return to prison drops dramatically if one receives an opportunity to receive education. For someone who earns a higher degree in higher education while they're incarcerated, about 60% or so of them will never return to prison. The studies have shown that therefore we can either as a society invest $1 in education or 6 to re incarcerate. That's what it comes down to. So not only by providing opportunities of growth and higher education in these environments are we saving money. But of course we're more. Much more importantly we're making society safer and giving people opportunities to have that. This was actually done intentionally in the Deseret News because they had run a piece before that that I felt was very concerning. It wasn't their fault. It was an apology article. But the headline was just so inflammatory. Intentionally so. And it said something along the lines of government to provide free education to prisoners, free college to prisoners. And that is not what transpired or is taking place. What has happened is that the Clinton administration in 1995 took away the opportunity for incarcerated students to access Pell. It's part of the tough on crime package and it proved disastrous for this country. And so fortunately, at the end of the Trump administration, Congress voted to restore Pell. Every US citizen that qualifies has a right to access that money and to receive that education. So it's not free college that they're providing, but it's transformative education. It's something we need to invest in as a society. So I wrote that piece one wanting to, to share a different message.
John Dehlin [02:33:13] Beautiful. Okay. Yeah, that's so important and it's so inspiring. And we'll show a video about that in just a second. Talk about this second, the second article real quick.
David Bokovoy [02:33:27] Oh, this?
Speaker D [02:33:28] I,
John Dehlin [02:33:31] or maybe we don't need to talk about it.
David Bokovoy [02:33:33] Oh, I think that was the one I was discussing. Did I look at the wrong slide then?
John Dehlin [02:33:36] This is the previous one.
David Bokovoy [02:33:37] Oh, I wasn't. Okay, I'm sorry.
Margi Dehlin [02:33:39] No, it's good.
David Bokovoy [02:33:40] Okay. I was talking about the other one, which was the op ed piece that we just looked at. Oh, no, sorry about that.
John Dehlin [02:33:44] No, it's. I'm making you crane your neck.
David Bokovoy [02:33:46] So it's all right. So I think these are just articles then that were run for SLCC's first graduation ceremony in the prison. So. Oh, my goodness, I forget my numbers now. I think 23 graduates we had with college degrees or certificates last year, and we have about 27 that will be graduating with associate degrees and academic certificates this coming May. So it was a really celebratory event. It was wonderful for me to be involved with that and to see higher education doing something so practical. There's so much elitism in higher education. I find it oftentimes very offensive. So to be in the prison on that graduation day in my doctoral robe from Brandeis University, carrying around soda pop bottles and things like that for the refreshments afterwards to our incarcerated students that graduated. I loved that because just, I, that's what I don't know. I, I, I, that's higher education. And it's powerful when, when it does those sorts of things.
Prison Commencement Ceremony and Graduate Stories
John Dehlin [02:35:00] Should we play that clip?
David Bokovoy [02:35:01] Yeah, let's do that. Sure.
John Dehlin [02:35:03] All right. This is just a new. Do you want to set it up?
David Bokovoy [02:35:06] I think this is just a news clip about that graduation ceremony. And again, I just want to emphasize that I'm sharing this as an individual, but not as a representative of Slick.
John Dehlin [02:35:16] All right, let's roll the tape.
▶ Video Clip 1Video Clip 1 [02:35:20] New this morning, Salt Lake Community College held its first graduation ceremony in the history of the Utah Department of corrections.
Video Clip 1 [02:35:26] Scott McCain joins us live with what
Video Clip 1 [02:35:28] it took for these students to get here.
Video Clip 1 [02:35:30] Good morning, Scott.
Video Clip 1 [02:35:31] It's a big deal.
Video Clip 1 [02:35:35] Yeah, very big deal, guys. And, you know, ideally, you know, a key part of incarceration is the rehabilitation aspect there, folks to come here, pay their debt to society, hopefully learn, and, you know, be better for it. Well, nearly two dozen inmates here at Utah State Prison graduating yesterday with a degree from Salt Lake Community College. And it's absolutely a huge deal. This has been a program that's been in place for nearly six years now. And these individuals getting a degree of Certificate of completion from Slick, they took their class passes through the community college's prison education program. And the goal in all of this is to help those who enroll and complete this to get jobs in the future and avoid returning to prison once they're released.
Video Clip 1 [02:36:23] It's very important that this continues in the future and that those students who
Video Clip 1 [02:36:28] come after see that there's the possibility
Video Clip 1 [02:36:31] that they can leave a better person
Video Clip 1 [02:36:33] than they came in. So. So it makes sense. And it's received a lot of support, politically bipartisan support, to make sure that higher education is an option for those who would like to pursue it and qualify so that we can reduce that recidivism rate and provide a way for them to earn jobs.
Video Clip 1 [02:36:54] Yeah, Ms. Bluff, who you heard there, she was part of the very first group to join this then pilot, pilot program back in 2017. She actually graduated before the pandemic hit, but of course, no graduation ceremonies being held as a result of all of that. She now, though, continuing to move forward while she still has some time to serve here. She's currently working toward her bachelor's degree in exercise science through the University of Utah, who is also helping some of these inmates to achieve a degree. Agree. Now, Bacavoi says studies have shown basically two thirds of those who complete some form of higher education while they're incarcerated do not return to prison. And he says, as you heard in his soundbite, there's a lot of bipartisan support for that. You know, you don't want to spend good money after bad. You put that money up front. These folks get a degree and they do not return. So a great program here. Congratulations. Congratulations to those who were able to complete their degree. We're now live in Salt Lake City Scott McCain, Fox 13 News, Utah.
John Dehlin [02:37:59] Love it.
Speaker D [02:38:00] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:38:00] That's good stuff.
David Bokovoy [02:38:01] Thank you. It's fun. I get excited about that. It's just. It's lovely to see. I'll just share one brief story. For example, that one of our students is graduating this upcoming year with an associate's degree. He was raised on a white supremacist compound. There are a lot of, believe it or not, there are a lot of. It's strange, but there are a lot of white supremacist, Nazi, I don't know, type gangs and things like that that are in the prison system as well as other gangs. And this man was raised in this, indoctrinated into this viewpoint. And he came to me about a year ago and he's maintained well. He just got an A minus, so it's not quite a 4.0, but this guy is like 3.9 now. And at that time, 4.0. And he was taking anthropology, criminal justice, and the first half of American history that semester. Okay. And he came to me, said, david, nothing has ever transformed me in my life like this semester has not. He said, it hasn't. Nothing has been transformative like this. Therapy hasn't worked to this level, but I feel like I understand things differently now. He said, I thought I overcame my racism. I was a separatist, meaning they felt like the races should be separated from each other. I had no idea that that was still racism that I was holding onto, and I'm so grateful. And. And at the end of that semester, I sat in his criminal justice class as this man gave an oral report on the systemic problems that African Americans face in the justice system. So that's the type of thing that happens when education is offered to those who want it, who haven't had a chance to pursue it and are looking for change.
John Dehlin [02:40:05] Love it. Love it. Okay. Well, as we. I guess. I guess I want to end with kind of a quick preview of what we're going to be talking about in the next episode, which is your work on scriptures and on Isaiah and the new book that's come out and your chapters in the book and basically the book of Isaiah and Mormonism. I think that's maybe going to be the title of our next episode. Episode. Before we do, is there any topic that you wanted to make sure we covered that we haven't covered? I know we've covered quite a bit. We got adhd, we got patriarchy, we got mental health.
David Bokovoy [02:40:48] Yeah, I think we got it. And Margi and John, I sincerely appreciate this opportunity to Share you two. I know you work very hard. I know you do. And you help a lot of people and sometimes mistakes are made and people get angry and frustrated and you get a lot of things that you throw in your way that you do not deserve as well as part of this journey. And I just wanted to say that you're loved and appreciated and I'm very grateful for this chance to share. I do not have all the answers. I don't want to sit up here and say, oh, okay, I became fit and I did this and I did that. It's not it at all enlightened now? Yeah, not at all. I'm still growing and learning, but I've learned some things that have helped me and I'm grateful for a chance to share with this podcast. So thank you both.
John Dehlin [02:41:36] Yeah, no, our pleasure. Now, were you going to say something, Margi?
Margi Dehlin [02:41:41] Just how much I appreciate you connecting with us the way you have at the level you have. Yeah,
John Dehlin [02:41:51] well, thanks. Well, we've got these clips. We've got this christofferson clip and these last two slides. Do you want to talk about. Do you want to show the Kristofferson clip really quick?
Literary Analysis of the Book of Mormon
David Bokovoy [02:42:01] This is great. I was still working for the church at the time, but was struggling because of, you know, I was a black sheep or whatever, but I don't need to go back there. But. So I was in the. But all of a sudden, Grant Hardy, who a famous LDS scholar, sent a message that David Bogwe quoted by Mormon apostle at the Library of Congress. And I'm like, what? Sure enough, he didn't get the last name correct, but still pronunciation, it's kind of fun.
John Dehlin [02:42:31] To what scholarship is he referring to here?
David Bokovoy [02:42:34] So what happened? He uses a quote that I was connected with the classes that I was teaching at the University of Utah. A lot of attention nationally was given to those classes because at that time, a semester had not been devoted in an academic environment to teaching the Book of Mormon outside of a religious environment. And so apparently grabbed onto one of those.
John Dehlin [02:42:59] Is this the. So I'm just going to show it. Is this the flyer for the class? This is the CLCS 4900. That's the University of Utah class.
David Bokovoy [02:43:09] Was.
John Dehlin [02:43:09] So you were teaching Book of Mormon at a state school?
David Bokovoy [02:43:12] Yes.
John Dehlin [02:43:12] That's kind of cool.
David Bokovoy [02:43:13] It was great.
John Dehlin [02:43:14] And it was at. I guess it would be academically legit, right?
David Bokovoy [02:43:19] Oh, yeah, yeah, it was. Yeah, it was an elective credit. It was a great experience. I enjoyed it very much.
John Dehlin [02:43:26] What was it basically about?
David Bokovoy [02:43:28] Talking about the literary qualities and things like that that the Book of Mormon possesses.
John Dehlin [02:43:33] Oh, yeah, Grant Hardy loves it.
David Bokovoy [02:43:34] Yeah. I talked about some of the connections because it's drawing upon biblical text and biblical ideas. I would show the connections with that from a literary perspective and then I would talk about how it also can be seen in its 19th century context as a literary work. Yeah, it was a great experience. It was a lot of fun. I enjoyed that one. It was more popular than my Sex in the Bible course at the U. I don't know why.
John Dehlin [02:44:02] Song of Solomon.
Margi Dehlin [02:44:03] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:44:06] All right, well, let's play. Let's just for fun, we'll play Christopherson given David B. Yeah, something like that. However he pronounces it, giving you a shout out. All right, let's roll the tape. Let's see here. Okay, here we go. Book of Mormon by both LDS and non LDS scholars have been published in recent years. There have been and continue to be literary readings of the book at university level English courses around the country. And these publications and classes do their best to allow the text of the Book of Mormon to speak for itself rather than debating its historical accuracy or questioning Joseph Smith account of its translation. As scholar David Balcovy said, you don't have to believe in historic claims to appreciate the Book of Mormon as literature. Beyond its impact on American literature and culture for Latter Day Saints, the Book of Mormon remains the keystone of our religion. I'm torn. On the one hand, I do. It is a book that's impacted many people and it deserves academic attention for that reason alone. For sure, it seems a little convenient that he's saying we don't, let's not worry about the translation process or its historicity.
Speaker D [02:45:32] That.
David Bokovoy [02:45:32] But he's talking about the classes I was teaching.
John Dehlin [02:45:34] Yeah, yeah.
David Bokovoy [02:45:34] The only way that they would be accepted at a state university, particularly in Utah, is if we could maintain that balance. Right. And so it's true. I, I, I did not delve into historical criticism a little bit, but not too much. The focus was more on reading it from those literary perspectives. And I stand by that.
John Dehlin [02:45:58] Of course,
David Bokovoy [02:46:01] I haven't spent any time in the Book of Mormon in about six years now, in fact. Yeah, I haven't picked one up probably since then. And so it really doesn't have the meaning now for me that it once did. But I still, even as we jump into this next segment, I think it's profound and lovely the way that the Book of Mormon incorporates the Book of Isaiah. It's just incredible. It's a really amazing book that Joseph Smith created It has its problems, right? I mean, racism and things like that. It has its problems. I hope that Latter Day Saints who believe in it will not skirt those things under the rug, but learn from them and accept them. They are there. And then use that as a way to improve their spirituality through the book. I think that's possible.
John Dehlin [02:47:01] I love it. Margaret's reminding me that maybe we want to have you go out on playing a song. Oh, but before.
David Bokovoy [02:47:08] I would love that.
John Dehlin [02:47:09] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:47:09] Can we do that?
John Dehlin [02:47:10] Yeah, we are. But before we do, just. We're gonna. Let's just show the book and tell them about the book and your chapters in the book, just as a preview for tomorrow. And then we're gonna end with. We're gonna go out on David singing a song for us.
Margi Dehlin [02:47:24] What a treat.
David Bokovoy [02:47:25] Oh, you're kind. I don't. I can't. I can't say it's gonna be good, but I'll have fun sharing.
John Dehlin [02:47:30] What's this book?
David Bokovoy [02:47:31] Okay, so this book, Latter Day Saints in the Bible, is one that came out recently through the University of Utah Academic Press. It's a wonderful book. Each chapter is written by a Mormon scholar. Most of them are connected with byu, so you'll see names in there that are. If people are familiar with that type of writing, those literatures, they'll see those names appear. But I was given the opportunity or invitation to write the chapters on the Pentateuch, as we shared. And then the prophetic literature. We'll draw upon a little bit of that prophetic literature article, I think, as we talk about Isaiah, because some of the things that are very important to share. And that book. I wrote the articles years ago. The book was originally going to be published by Oxford University Press. And then I don't know what happened. And then contracts and things like that. Book publishing is a strange business. But anyway, it was picked up then by another academic press and came out. And I reread those articles and I'm proud of the work. I'm proud to appear in there with those LDS scholarship. I stand by what was written there. It's quite nice to be a part of that, but I wouldn't do it again. Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:49:01] All right. Well, the photo of it's up there. I think the formal title is the Bible and the Latter Day Saint Tradition. Is that right? And I think Tater Petrie is the editor. Right.
David Bokovoy [02:49:13] It's edited by two of my. That's why I'm in there. Two of my very good friends, Taylor Petrie and Cory Crawford are two of the great editors. There and they both have. Are outstanding religious Bible scholars.
John Dehlin [02:49:25] Okay. All right, well, I think it's time for you to. To go out on a song because you do have a band.
David Bokovoy [02:49:30] We do, yeah.
John Dehlin [02:49:31] The band is.
David Bokovoy [02:49:32] Yeah, Dead Cowboys. We play here locally in Utah as frequently as we can. And it's always a good time. People are always welcome to come on out with us.
John Dehlin [02:49:43] Where do you normally play?
David Bokovoy [02:49:45] We'll play at places like Piper down or Ice House and places around Salt Lake. Our next show will be at that Ice House venue. I play with some incredibly talented musicians. I am not a talented musician. I was a singer, songwriter, hippie kid but that likes playing with these guys. But I started writing songs when I was about 16, I guess. And then I left music in pursuit of scholarship. And one day my wife and I
Speaker D [02:50:14] were
David Bokovoy [02:50:18] at a bar and listening to live music, which is something we are passionate about. And she said, you used to love that. You should do that again. And so I went out and bought a guitar and been playing with the band that my brother Brent, who's a movie producer, he named the band after kind of the old cowboy music that we like. But the band is morphed into rock and roll. And actually I teach the history of rock and roll as a fine arts course in the prison. So I went from Bible scholar to Jack Black in the school of rock. Thank you.
John Dehlin [02:50:53] All right, what are you going to play for us?
David Bokovoy [02:50:55] I'll play an original song that I wrote when I was about 16 years old. It's about a trip that was inspired. We would go down into Mexico a lot and do little surfing trips and things with my friends. And coming across the border was always very difficult because we would see the poverty that was there and that bothered me a lot. And I went home one day afterwards and wrote a song about that poverty. And anyway, it was. It was. I don't know. I've always been concerned about those sorts of issues. So it became a song and we recorded it and released it. Our songs, my original songs are streaming online with this band. It's kind of fun to come back to A passion.
John Dehlin [02:51:47] So you can go to Spotify and
David Bokovoy [02:51:48] look up Dead Cowboys, B Dead Cowboys and. And you'll see a lot of these songs.
Margi Dehlin [02:51:53] So in a way we're connecting with your 16 year old self.
David Bokovoy [02:51:57] Yeah, I'm coming back to exactly. I'm becoming more and more. I've been on this journey where I was going and then I took this long road of scholarship and Bible things and come back to where I should always felt Comfortable, I guess.
John Dehlin [02:52:12] All right. And the song's called.
David Bokovoy [02:52:14] This song is called Nickels and Dimes.
Closing Reflections and Musical Farewell
John Dehlin [02:52:17] All right, so this is David Vacavoy playing Nickels and dimes to close today's episode.
David Bokovoy [02:52:39] Gets so cold Maria starts to cry. Sometimes I wish I could just lay down and die yet I know she needs me Yes, I know that she needs me and so I beg for nickels and dimes. Dirty corner, you're my home with us tourist you tend to feel that you're not so alone hold my cup to you you just walk them by and if I'm lucky then I'll get your nickels and dime.
Margi Dehlin [02:54:00] Sa.
David Bokovoy [02:54:27] Jose's been gone for such a long
Margi Dehlin [02:54:34] time
David Bokovoy [02:54:37] in a foreign land where he promised that he would find maybe there's some way he could find the somehow to bring home more than just nickels and dimes. But it gets so cold and Maria starts to cry. Thank you.
John Dehlin [02:55:25] All right. That's beautiful.
Margi Dehlin [02:55:28] What a way to end.
David Bokovoy [02:55:29] Thank you.
Margi Dehlin [02:55:30] That was absolutely exquisite.
John Dehlin [02:55:33] Wow. That was beautiful, huh, Margi?
Margi Dehlin [02:55:35] Oh, all the feels for that.
David Bokovoy [02:55:37] Oh, you guys are so sweet. Thank you. It's. It. Yeah, it. Thank you. Yeah. It's tough to see all that poverty on the border, and it left an imprint for sure. In my life. We've always wanted to try to help people. My wife and I've been driven by that. It's been difficult, as we've talked about, to try to figure out what to do, leading the new life and the financial things that have happened, but we've been building our own business together in real estate, and it's been an exciting project to work on with her as an equal.
Margi Dehlin [02:56:13] Yes. That's so exciting.
John Dehlin [02:56:15] Like, tell us. Just tell us about it.
David Bokovoy [02:56:17] So she is. So she has become an agent. She was an agent in Boston, and she's now working as an agent here in Utah.
John Dehlin [02:56:24] So residential.
David Bokovoy [02:56:26] Yeah, commercial. So, yeah, I throw that out there. If anyone wants to, you know, is interested in investments in that area or if they want to. If they just want to work with someone that they feel cares and is compassionate, is concerned, she is absolutely that person. And they can just reach out to us on Facebook or social media. And we love working with people in the community to help them in that area because it is so important to have some place to live and feel comfortable. So we're available for that. And it's been exciting. I love partnering with her as an equal and that. So thanks for letting me do that. Shout out to her and what we're doing.
John Dehlin [02:57:05] So on Facebook, It's Carolyn Bachavoy.
David Bokovoy [02:57:07] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:57:07] Okay. B O K O V O Y.
David Bokovoy [02:57:10] That's correct. You'll be okay. O V O y.
John Dehlin [02:57:13] Is that what I said?
David Bokovoy [02:57:14] No, you'll be okay. Oh, Oh, V o y. It's a terrible dad joke that my dad would tell.
Speaker D [02:57:22] All right.
John Dehlin [02:57:22] And please come right back for part. I don't know if it's three or four with David Vacavoy because we're going to talk about Isaiah in the Book of Mormon and Mormonism, and there's no one, I think, alive maybe that could talk to this better than Dave Bacavoy. So come back for that. And that's how we'll close out David Bacavoy Week. Thanks for joining us. Thank you for David Bacavoy Week on Mormon Stories. Thanks, David, for being here.
David Bokovoy [02:57:51] You guys are sweet.
John Dehlin [02:57:52] And Margi, thanks for joining, as always.
Margi Dehlin [02:57:55] Absolutely. Yes.
John Dehlin [02:57:57] All right, we'll see you all next time. Come on right back. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. We'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care.
One Response
Time stamp 1:40:15-1:42:22 is the most accurate and succinct summary of the family experience for those of us who leave. Thank you David for saying it in that way.
🎯💔😭