Welcome and Introduction to Carol Lynn Pearson

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 1708

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am one of your two hosts for today, John Dehlin. It's December 13th, if my blurry eyes are not deceiving me. And I am here, joined today by my lovely partner in truth and righteousness, Margi. Hey, Margi.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:00:18] Hey there, babe.

John Dehlin [00:00:19] We're trying out a new format which is where we live stream, sitting at the same desk, but bringing on a guest who couldn't join us in studio. How are you doing today, Margi?

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:00:29] I'm doing well. How are you feeling?

John Dehlin [00:00:31] It's good to have you.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:32] Thank you. Happy to be here.

John Dehlin [00:00:34] All right, well, we are super excited for today's interviewee. This woman is not a stranger to people who have been with us for a while on the Mormon Stories Podcast channel. And for anyone who has been around Mormonism and progressive Mormonism long enough to have been paying attention, we have with us the woman, the Myth, the legend, Dr. Carolyn Pearson. Hey, Carolyn Pearson. Hello.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:01:02] So happy to be here. I didn't know I had just received from you my doctorate. Okay, I'll accept that.

John Dehlin [00:01:08] You received an official Mormon Stories doctorate. Is that okay?

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:01:11] Oh, I'll accept it. Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:14] We should have a soon.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:01:14] Easy, easy.

John Dehlin [00:01:16] One of the weird things about the Internet these days, Carolyn, is that, you know, we have an audience of hundreds of thousands of people. And even though to us, you are literally a living legend pioneer, the overwhelming majority of our audience will have never heard of your name. Part of that is because half of our audience has never been lds, and then a huge chunk of our audience haven't been listening to Mormon stories since the beginning. So they will not have heard our epic interview with you, which to me is definitely a top 20 classic.

John Dehlin [00:01:50] Our interview with Carolyn Pearson on Mormon Stories is definitely an important one, but the world needs more Carolyn Pearson. So we are bringing you back on Mormon Stories to do a few things. One is we want to do kind of catching up on you and your life, reintroducing you to our audience as it evolves. We're, of course, wanting to support your sharing of this amazing book and a few others with the world. One book that we are sharing with and talking about today is a new book that you've come out with called the Love Map, Saving youg Love Relationship, and incidentally, Saving the World. It's available on Carolyn Pearson.com and also on Amazon, but if you buy it from CarolynPierson.com like ours, it will be a signed copy.

John Dehlin [00:02:38] But it's a book about love. Carolyn Pearson has at Least two other books. She's the author of, I don't know, several dozen books, a lot of them poetry books. But some of the most famous books or most noteworthy books that we're going to be emphasizing today are Finding Mother God, which is a book you wrote a few years ago about Mother in Heaven. You also wrote several years ago, a book that we have featured on Mormon Stories podcast and have mentioned many, many times since. The book is called the Ghost of Eternal Polygamy, which talks about how the Mormon churches, Joseph Smith's and Brigham Young's teachings about polygamy, doctrine and covenants, 132, still affect, and I would say, in your words, haunt the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to this day.

John Dehlin [00:03:22] Buy that book, the Ghost of Eternal Polygamy. But also, Carolyn Pearson, you have so many other important books, including Circling the Wagons, which was about Mormons supporting their LGBTQ youth. And the book that got it all started, which is Goodbye, I Love youe, which is this touching, epic memoir that Got yout on Oprah and Phil Donahue. And I don't know Good Morning America or the Today Show, I forget, but it's basically this epic memoir about how you and your husband, your late husband Gerald, discovered that he was gay and he ended up acquiring AIDS and dying of aids and how you nursed him, took him back in and nursed him to his passing.

John Dehlin [00:04:05] There's just no way to do your life and your career justice. But all of those books and many, many more. Can I add one, please?

Margi Dehlin [00:04:13] And then I have nostalgic personal memory favorite In Love Again and Always the poetry book, because I read that book to the poetry in that book to my dad when he had kind of Lewy Bodies Disease. So that's a personal favorite of mine because I would. It was harder. It got a little bit harder to connect with him. But when I would read him poetry, he would just. Your poetry. He would just cr.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:04:41] Isn't that lovely? I'm so glad. Thank you. Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:04:45] Yeah. So did I leave anything super crucial out? That was probably an inadequate introduction, given your legendary status. What do you think?

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:04:55] That is better than I deserve? Thank you. Thank you so much, John. Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:05:00] Okay.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:05:01] And it's great to be here. And wait, before we go any further, I do have a little commercial that I want to bring. I'm inviting everyone to go listen to the story that John and Margi told on a podcast called Marriage on a Tightrope, which serves especially for couples who have differing religious points of view. And I Just so enjoyed listening to you, John and Margi, talking about your life and dealing with some of the challenges that, what life thrust upon you, how, how that was worked out so, so gracefully. I, I appreciate that and I, I want to invite everyone to just listen to that.

John Dehlin [00:05:44] Oh, well, thank you. Thanks, Carolyn.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:05:48] Oh, you're a great couple. I, I, I am really honored every time I get to be with you. Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:05:55] Well, we love you.

Margi Dehlin [00:05:56] The feeling is mutual.

John Dehlin [00:05:57] Absolutely. So Carolyn, for those who don't know, well, first of all, I just want to say if you really want your lives to be changed, dear listeners, pause this interview and go watch my epic multi hour high quality audio and video interview with Carolyn Pearson. Carolyn, you are one of the first people that I interviewed with high quality audio and video in that sort of long format. And that interview with you is irreplaceable.

John Dehlin [00:06:29] So I do want to make sure people go check that out because we won't be getting into Carolyn's story in depth today. But I just wanted to plug that because it's a crucial interview. But having said that, Carolyn, would you feel comfortable just kind of introducing, giving people the five to ten minute let's background of your life?

John Dehlin [00:06:55] I also didn't even mention that you're the author of My Turn on Earth, the musical and you're the author of the song that's still in the children's primary hymn book, I'll walk with you. Like you're just, I couldn't say enough. But anyway, how comfortable would you be spending five to ten minutes giving people kind of maybe some of your background at a high level, 8,000 foot summary?

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:07:22] I would be glad to do that. You know, it isn't, it's too bad that there are billions and billions of people across the world, as you say, John, who have never heard of me. So let me, let me do my little, my little tiny bit. Who are who for those who, who are here?

Deep Mormon Roots and Pioneer Heritage

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:07:38] Well, I did come from very deep, deep Mormon roots. All of my ancestors back to fourth generation are our pioneers. A mother, so, excuse me, a grandmother who walked across the plains when she was 8. Somebody in the Mormon battalion, someone on the ship Brooklyn. So Mormonism has been very deep in my DNA and my experience.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:08:01] I was born in Salt Lake City, spent five years with my family out in a little place no one's heard of, called Gusher, where we had for two years had no electricity or running water, where my father was teaching for the government. Teaching, teaching the Indians about, excuse me, the Indians and the veterans about farming.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:08:24] And then we moved to Provo, where my major growing up happened. And I went to. By high school, went to byu, got a master's degree in theater. Loved my experiences at byu, got to perform some wonderful roles, such as Joan of Arc. It doesn't get any better than that to prepare me, really, for my life journey. Huh?

John Dehlin [00:08:48] Yeah, absolutely.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:08:51] And after graduating with the masters, I taught school at Snow College for a year. Saved my money so I could retire.

John Dehlin [00:08:59] Masters in what, Carolyn?

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:09:02] I. I taught at Snow College.

John Dehlin [00:09:04] No, but the master's degree.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:09:06] Oh, in theater, okay. Yes. Saved my money from teaching for a year, traveled for a year, worked on a kibbutz in Israel, studying Hebrew for three months, was in Moscow when President Kennedy was assassinated. All kinds of interesting things. Three months in East Africa when I came back, the eye, or did I mention being in Israel, studying Hebrew and working on the land there for three months. When I came back, I was in one more play, a BYU by the the Skin of Our Teeth by Thornton Wilder, in which I met a very charming young man that I already fell for named Gerald Pearson.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:09:55] And we ultimately decided to marry. And he had told me prior to our getting engaged about his homosexual experiences, but that's not who he was. He. He was just a recently returned missionary and he loved the church deeply, and he loved me the very best he could. And I did love him. So we married and soon discovered that what he'd hoped for had not happened, that his inner workings were as they had always been. And we had four children, tried very hard to save our marriage. Ultimately, a move from Provo to the Bay Area here in California and continue to hope and work. And we decided ultimately that we had to end the marriage in order to remain good friends, which we did.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:10:51] And yes, as John mentioned, four years later, he passed away from AIDS here in this home. And we had never discussed the idea that I would write a book about our story. It was just. Just too shameful. But not long after he died, I decided, you know, here all these young men dying on the streets of San Francisco, thrown away from their families, their churches, and Gerald and I had learned a lot, and he had put me on the map as a writer. Just one quick mention about that. When we first married, he insisted on self publishing this little book called Begin Beginnings Little Book of Poems, which put me on the Mormon map in a bizarre, strange, fluky way.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:11:42] And that opened all of my. My writing possibilities. At any rate, I. I decided that if I could, if I was strong enough, I. I could write our story and that would be useful. For a lot of people. And so I did, and Random House published it and it did create, well, particularly in Mormondom, but nationally it was well received. And within Mormondem, it was really pretty much the first large thing that opened the conversation about homosexuality.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:12:21] And this was in 86 that the book came out. And I still receive notes from LGBTQ people thanking me for saving their lives way back then. So that was a very, very big thing. And, and I just continue to write. I was, I was born into women's issues and then I married into gay issues.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:12:46] And in terms of the gay issues, I've done other things. I wrote a play that was so well received, powerful play, Facing east, story of a Mormon couple dealing with the suicide of their gay son. That was very, very powerful. In fact, that, that the Deseret News is that that's the church newspaper. They gave it the best drama of the year award that year, tied with Shakespeare's Hamlet at the Utah Shakespeare Festival.

John Dehlin [00:13:23] Nice.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:13:24] And then going back to women's issues, I've done things that I'm very excited about. When I wrote and performed Mother Woe of the morning, a one woman play, 16 women telling their stories of the search for the divine feminine throughout history.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:13:45] That was through the 90s when difficult things were happening in, in Mormondom for people who were going outside the the lines. But I performed that play over 300 times, and that is in the professional video that is available on my, my website as well, along with the book.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:14:04] So I've been centered on doing work about the gender issues, really. And we have a long way to go regarding both the LGBTQ issues that my husband brought to the plate and then my feminism. We seem to have, you know, melted into a very interesting circumstance there. And I'm grateful to Gerald for what he did for me.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:14:38] The ongoing question of the gender of God, even if you don't believe in God, the idea that God is male affects everything in our world. So that subject continued to be so deeply important to me. And as John mentioned, I wrote a book not too long ago, Finding Mother Poems to Heal the World.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:15:12] So in general, that's the scope of my professional life. And it has been done quite significantly within the context of Mormondom, because that's where I was sent fate or God or whatever it is that is this power that places us and moves us.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:15:40] I found myself called within this community to do my work. And I'm so grateful that I have been able to develop a platform and a voice so that John and Margi and other people would Invite me to expand my reach. I'm deeply grateful for all of that. So that's a general thrust of my life up to this point, Dear friends.

John Dehlin [00:16:22] Yeah, it's impossible to capture all the many contributions you've made and your importance to our community in a couple hours, let alone in 10 or 15 minutes, but thanks for giving us that overview. So, Carolyn, one of the really fascinating things about you, on the one hand, if you think about the biggest controversies that the Mormon Church has faced over the past, let's just say one to two decades, not only have those been issues for you, but they've been issues for you longer than most of our audience has been alive.

Feminism, Gay Rights, and Early Activism

John Dehlin [00:17:17] And by the way, when I read Goodbye, I love you in preparation for our first interview, I realized you didn't just have feminism and women's issues as a passion, and you didn't just have LGBTQ issues. Your book, Goodbye, I Love youe also discusses Mormon church history and truth claims. So you, you've literally been pioneering in these spaces that now all the blogs and all the podcasts, all the YouTube channels, all the TikTok accounts, all the ex Mormon and progressive Mormon discourses that are available, you've been working on this stuff since the 80s, all of it.

John Dehlin [00:18:03] And what's most mind blowing about that is you are still an active, faithful, participating member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Do I got that? Do I have that right?

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:18:18] You have that right, yes. But John, Even before the 80s, I was doing things. In the early 70s, I wrote two books of daughters of Light about the spiritual experiences of early Mormon women. I was on fire with all of that way back in the, in, in the 60s, I was. And then through the 70s.

John Dehlin [00:18:40] Okay, so I. Sorry, so you were, you were, you were well into the 60s. So I mean, that's just, you know, that's why, that's why I don't believe legendary or pioneer or, you know, hero are hyperbole. So, but, but, but to, to juxtapose that with the fact that you are still faithful, participating and believing, I think I want to kind of start there a little bit in as we kind of begin some questions. Would that be okay?

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:19:12] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:19:13] Okay. All right, so I think I want to start right at the very top. And this is where maybe you can bring in your book Finding Mother God. But I want to start really, really big and just ask, what does God mean to you? I know that you do not identify as an atheist. I don't know if you identify as an agnostic, but so Many of our listeners, over half our listeners because they lost their faith in Mormonism and they felt so betrayed and disillusioned by the Mormon Church to some degree all the dominoes fell and for so many, God and Jesus fall right along with Joseph Smith in the Book of Mormon and even the Bible. So let's just begin. What does God mean to you, Carolyn Pearson? And what does your belief in God look like in your day to day life?

What God Means: Evolving Personal Theology

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:20:17] That's not easy, John. And I waver a lot in everything about the concept of God I do believe. I mean, I think God is the best word that we still have, though it's been given a tremendous lot of awful baggage. But let's just continue to use the word God for whatever creative force brought us here. And listen, John and Margi, when I'm not in my right mind, I go way back to there's nothing, this is all an accident. And when I'm in my worst unright

Margi Dehlin [00:21:10] mind

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:21:12] I think why is there existence at all? I've had a lot of grief to deal with in my life and I have been sometimes at the point point of saying if there was a button here that said you push this button and you never would have existed, I would have considered pushing that button. Because in my, in my worst times I don't believe in very much.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:21:40] But I'm not in my, I'm not in that space the majority of the time. And when I'm in my right mind, I know that there is. Well see the word God pretty much equates with the word good in my mind.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:22:01] And the best definition biblical that I know at all is God is love. And so that's where I place my confidence. I know that there is love. I know that that's what we all live in when we're at our best selves. And if we can connect the idea of God with the word good, with the word love, then I'm on board with God.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:22:37] I could not draw God on a blackboard. I don't know about anthropomorphic God, I don't know that. But I know that there is some good huge power that has brought us here and that moves us to do good and godly things. And so when I see good happening, I am seeing God happening.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:23:08] And when I am creating good, I am creating more Godness in the world. So John, to your question, I have to kind of back up a little bit because I do not use the specific words that a lot of people do, but I have not thrown away the concept of God. At all.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:23:36] I, I sort of have redefined it for myself. And of course I bring in the what. What to me is the essential and an essential thing right now to redefine God as being a perfect balance of maleness and femaleness.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:23:59] And again, I can't draw that on the blackboard. Here's God the male, here's God the female. I don't know how all that works, but however it is, and I'm backing up to this, this, this general concept of something fine and beautiful and powerful that has brought us into being and that we are always a part of. When I can go back to that largeness and know that it is a force for good and of good and that we are all part of it, no matter who we are, no matter what religion we might have or not have, then I can feel that the word God can be meaningful to me.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:24:53] And, and I do. I have my, my morning prayers, I have my morning meditation. And sometimes I visualize God as this beautiful ethereal couple, undefined, not the way we could draw it on, draw on a blackboard. But when I can, when I can keep God large and beautiful and good and all encompassing and moving through all of us to create more Godness in the world, then I'm good with God. And that's about all I can say on that right now. John.

John Dehlin [00:25:37] Okay, I love it. Let me ask, let me drill down a little bit on that. And that's beautiful. And I resonate. I don't know, Margi, if you, if you resonate with that, but I do resonate with a lot of what you're saying, especially around this idea that there's a power or a force, a creative. There's clearly some sort of creative force that has led to all of us, you know, nature existing.

John Dehlin [00:26:03] And so I guess the first thing I want to drill down a little bit and ask is, you know, we could call that nature. We could call that just science or existence or earth. You know, we could. There's a lot of different ways we could describe that. But if we choose to use the label God, that does pull some other ideas like that there's maybe a caring. Maybe there's a being out there that cares for us. Maybe there's a being out there that is looking out for us, watching over us, protecting us. And of course, this is where it introduces the problem of some call it the problem of evil or theodicy, because as soon as we start to believe there's something loving and some creative planning force that's looking out for us Then we have to explain why there's so many horrible things on the earth.

John Dehlin [00:27:01] And so you could just say it's nature. And nature can be beautiful, nature can be horrific. But if you allow yourself to take that one step further and use the God label, then you're introducing something very beautiful, which is a more explicit meaning and purpose and potentially loving and thoughtful, almost anthropomorphic source. But then you have to deal with all the pain.

John Dehlin [00:27:27] So why, what is it? What's the difference for you? Why do you take that extra step to call it God? What's the difference between just nature, whatever the creative force is, and your perception of God? What's the difference? And then what do you do with the problem of evil in all that?

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:27:52] Well, John, of course we're just little kindergarteners here talking about postdoctoral concepts and I know exactly what you're asking, but I don't know that I have a really great answer. Poetically, I sometimes sort of imagine, just imagine that what we call physical or maybe nature.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:28:23] Here's the physical here and here's. Because I do believe that there is something about our soul that is eternal. And that boggles my mind that you just even think about that. But I don't think we're just a flash in the pan here.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:28:41] So in, in my poetic mind, I'm thinking, okay, here's, here's the physical, here's the spiritual. And before creation happened, the physical and the spiritual had a conversation maybe saying, you know, if, if we join up here, we can create something that's never happened before. Let's call it humanity.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:29:06] To be physical and spiritual and, and, and living in a world of physicality where stuff just happens and, and, and the rules are that we are, we are creating this, but we're not going to get, we're just going to let things happen. This is a beautiful experiment and accidents will happen, genetic problems will happen, diseases will happen, all kinds of things will happen. That whatever larger force there is. We're just not going to get involved in this. But, but, but this. We're going to create something that's never happened before, which is humanity. And, and they can figure out how to do godly work for each other.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:30:01] Because John, you know, I, I like a story of a miracle as much as anybody, but there, you know it sometimes when in, in church meetings we hear, you know, this, testimonies of miraculous healings and I think, well, I'm glad for you, but you know, that didn't, hasn't happened for a thousand people in, in terms of the One that you're talking about there.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:30:29] So I don't know what to do with the whole idea of begging God to keep us safe as we go on our automobile trip. I don't. Because wonderful, faithful people of all stripes have terrible things happen to them. And I don't believe in Satan, but I believe that there is evil.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:30:54] So, you know, here I'm just wandering around in the space that you asked me to enter, John, and I'm not doing a satisfactory job. But I'm just suggesting that as I kind of make this up in my mind as something that usually works for me, it's that we are in this wonderful, strange world where the best stuff happens and the worst stuff happens.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:31:31] And we being part of what I still want to call a godly process, can be instruments within all this chaos to minimize the evil and maximize the divine and just do what we can to bring what we. That if there is a God, I am going to be God's ambassador to do what I think God would do if God were here. And God is here within my intention and my action to do something godly and that.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:09] And I hear you kind of saying, and some other words, good love.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:32:16] Right, Right. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:18] Yeah.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:32:19] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:19] Can I ask, can I bring it back to you personally for a minute? I'm kind of curious if there are certain practices. You kind of went into a morning practice already. But I would be curious if there are times in your day or rituals that you have that allow for you to feel connected to this sense of what is godly, what is good and what is love.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:32:52] I do try to do something of a specific prayer ritual. And you know, I've added to it since writing and publishing this little book that does spring from the chakra concept I have added moving up my system at the end of my meditate. First of all, I meditate moving into my prayer.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:33:22] And then recently I have been just moving up the chakra system, saying I have everything this day that I need. I feel gratitude, happiness. I can, I can accomplish what I want. I love. I love. I speak love. I see love. I am love. I've added that interesting little addition to my meditation prayer. And throughout the day, you know, if something troublesome comes up, I, I, I, I, I just say, okay, God, help me to do this right. Help me to do this right. If I'm not going to have a conversation that might be difficult, dear God, help me to do this right. That's, I guess that's all I can say to your, to your question, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:34:19] I love that, and that kind of reminds me actually of a piece of the love map. Not to give too much away, but this idea of the question that comes kind of in the final chapters of the book of, you know, what would love do?

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:34:36] Right, Absolutely. And see, I've already in my mind equated God with love. And we have that scripture that says God is love. So when in that book you read, you know, the final, the final question, as we go through our day, always with all of the difficult stuff that we come up against to ask that question, okay, what would love do? What would love do now? And since writing that book, I have tried to bring myself to a higher bar and I'm able even to notice, oh, wow, I, I did not, I did not manage that with the true love that I think I ought to have. I, I, I fell down to the third. We probably get into that a little bit later. But I, I left the fourth, which is the heart, and I moved down to the third. I'm better now at observing when I do that. So.

Margi Dehlin [00:35:42] Yeah, yeah, that awareness. I also wanted to ask you really quick about how you view creativity, right, how you express yourself. I've, I've been listening to some interviews with writers, and I think it's really interesting to hear oftentimes, not just writers, but creative people that they're, you know, this concept of sometimes they'll say things like, it isn't me. It's like God comes through me and I write the thing, but it's really not me. And I'm curious about your point of view for you with that process. If you feel like, number one, do you feel a sense of God, good love, as you create something, and if that feels like something that is outside yourself, coming through you, is it from you? Is it a mixture? Just, I'm curious how, how you feel about that.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:36:41] Yeah, that, that is interesting. I, I have never had what we might call a paranormal experience. And I, I would never say that he. I, I am, I am channeling God in, in writing this. I, I don't. Everything that I write does come from my imagination.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:37:09] But as I have said before somewhere, I want to speak for a moment on behalf of my imagination because, you know, whatever God is, my imagination is connected to God. You know, we, in the word imagination, there is image. And I think that God imaged us into being somehow or other.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:37:39] So for me, when I, when my imagination, as it interacts with the world around me and sees a need like clearly, you know, fighting mother God was a response to. Well, I'll tell you what it was a response to. I was angry. I was angry that I heard a Mormon scholar say when I asked a question about why won't the Brethren address something really substantial for women, like reviewing the gender of God? And he said, oh, I don't see anybody in Salt Lake who would be interested in doing the heavy lifting that would be required to address that subject.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:38:26] I knew that what he said was true, and I knew that what he said made me so angry. And so I decided it was not their job, but my job. And the next day, I was still so angry that I would. I cried a little bit. I did. And then I grabbed a notebook and I wrote a poem. And to see all this was my. My response to my environment of what was going, what was being put into my mind, into my heart and my imagination, saying, I feel called to do something about this.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:39:06] So I imaged. This thought. We have to shift the way we see God to include the feminine as much as the masculine. That general concept evoked images in my mind. And of course, poetry is images. So suddenly all of these images were flowing through me and each became a poem. And I created this little story or this little thought.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:39:45] But. And because I say that I am a part of God, and one of the things I say in the Love Map, that's maybe heretical, is don't think for a moment that you are apart from God. You are a part of God. And I wish we could have that better in Mormon thought and speaking about God, because this severance that we're way away from God, just trying so hard to be worthy to get back into God's presence, I'm through with that.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:40:26] I am still a part of God, not apart from God. And being a part of God, whatever my imagined, when my imagination comes up with that feels godly to me and I have to trust myself. Does this feel godly? Does this feel like love? Then I can say, not that I've received some big revelation from God, it's much more subtle than that. But I am confident then that I am doing the work that we call the work of God. If I feel really excited that this is a godly thought and a godly image. So I guess that's the best I can do for you. Margi, on that.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:17] I love that. Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:41:19] That was beautiful. Thank you, Carolyn. And thank you. I love your questions, Margi. Carolyn, so I'm hearing you say two things, and I want you to speak, if you can, to both sides of the coin. On the one hand, you sort of said, I don't know about the anthropomorphic nature of God. And for those who aren't familiar with that word, sort of just like the, you know, Joseph Smith makes God not just a human, an exalted human, but with like 10 fingers and 10 toes and a beard. But then by introducing eternal polygamy, he makes there be at least one mother God and probably multiple mother gods to our heavenly father.

Heavenly Mother and the Gendering of God

John Dehlin [00:42:00] And then it's all complicated by the fact that in the modern church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints, we're not allowed to talk about mother in heaven. We get in trouble if we talk about her, we get in trouble if we pray to her. And that introduces all sorts of problems. So I want to speak about two sides of the coin. On the one hand, Carolyn, you're saying you don't know about the anthropomorphic nature of God, and yet by. By speaking about a mother in heaven, you're sort of introdu. You're introducing new. I don't want to say you're introducing new body parts. You're introducing the female body and the female body parts and female bodies to a sense of divinity for many. You know, we're trying to get away from the corporeal or anthropomorphic nature.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:42:48] So.

John Dehlin [00:42:50] So I want to talk about two sides of the coin is how do you address people who say, no, God's not about gender, God's not about body, God's not about body parts, so stop talking about mother in heaven. You're playing into the problem of making God and mother God anthropomorphic. So talk about that. Then we're going to talk about the benefits of talking about a mother in heaven, but what about the problems with talking about a mother in heaven?

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:43:20] I understand what you're saying, John, and again, I want to say we are little kindergarteners trying to talk about postdoctoral subjects here. For us to draw on a blackboard, what God looks like or to describe God is. Is way beyond the spiritual pay grade of any of us.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:43:50] And yet. Yet we. We do that. And I know people have visionary experiences. I've never had one to. To envision God this way, envision God the other way. And I have just personally become more comfortable in. Well, see, I'm human, and so it's fairly easy for me to envision deity in human terms. And of course, that's been ingrained in me being a little Mormon girl growing up.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:44:39] So I can manage that. And there are poems in this book where I visualize God as male and God as female. Dancing Together in this cosmic kind of fashion. We seem to need to have specifics when we talk about things that are beyond specific.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:45:08] And so I don't, I don't know of a good way to, to avoid the pitfalls that you've brought up, which indeed they are. And I know for LGBTQ people, for us to focus on a mother, father, God, leave something for them out.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:45:32] And again, we cannot draw a perfect picture of deity. So I have maybe my specific levels where I can envision some glorious larger than life, male and female being the way that we comprehend maleness and femaleness in some beautiful cosmic dance, creating the universe, being there for us.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:46:12] And I can also just acknowledge that that is so much larger than we have the ability to, to visualize and to comprehend. And, and we are limited by our words. So whatever words we choose, we're. We're leaving somebody out or, or we're making it too hard for somebody else who doesn't have that kind of concept.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:46:45] So I, I try personally to, to envision Godness, God as some wonderful combination that is beyond, beyond my mortal brain right now, but that whatever this force that we call God is, can be both very personal and very cosmic at the same time.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:47:19] And why not live in the mystery? So, John, as long as we've brought this up, I'm going to just read the last poem in Finding Mother God. And this poem is called Unpinned. I hope that humans never pin down love or God.

Epistemic Humility and Holding Beliefs Loosely

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:47:45] Things pinned down like butterflies lose something like life. I welcome progress. I am grateful for a long lifespan for medicine and computers. I like knowing that a black hole is born from the death of a star and that the universe has been expanding for 13.8 billion years.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:48:08] But let some mysteries when. Let love and God be at liberty to touch our faces with bright wings and leave wonder in our eyes as they rise, rise from the handheld pin or the handheld pen. Beautiful as a million monarchs and free as the space beyond words.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:48:49] So I have a hope that maybe we can not put all of our needs on getting the right exact formula picture of whatever this God thing is, is all about. Let this be a beautiful mystery. And all we know about God is that God is love. And we are participating in the beingness and the process of love.

John Dehlin [00:49:27] You're getting Margi to nod and sometimes Margi gets a little salty when there's God talk. So you're saying something that's profound.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:49:36] Good. Okay, let me.

John Dehlin [00:49:38] So I'm loving this. Let me just maybe ask a follow up question. You and I have often had these long when I lived in Logan. One of the things I miss most about living in Logan. There are very few things I miss about living in Logan. One of the things I miss about living in Logan were the long phone conversations you and I used to have whenever I had to make that drive to and from Logan. And I wanted to talk to my progressive Mormon godmother. But one of the things I love about your brand of faith is that I think if there are concentric circles between you and 1000 atheists, self identified atheists or agnostics, I think those concentric circles would very much have a lot of overlap.

John Dehlin [00:50:25] In other words, you have a lot of epistemic humility. And for you, like you said at the very beginning, one day you might push that button of I wish none of us had even existed. Is there anything out there? But you're wanting to also hold open the mystery and the possibilities and have a poetic sense of wonder and beauty about the life you're in. So you kind of give ground to atheists and agnostics in a way that I feel is respectful.

John Dehlin [00:50:57] But now let me flip that a tiny bit and say for our atheists and agnostic listeners and viewers, is there a degree to which you would say just like science maybe, you know, has a lot of value in it, science and evidence and physics and cosm, you know, all those sorts of things.

John Dehlin [00:51:24] Is there something that's lost in your view when somebody takes a 100% scientific, data based, evidence based, empirical worldview and they sort of reject any interest in God talk or theology talk or even in the mystery in your mind? I'll ask it in two ways. Is there something that's lost? And would you even be so bold as to venture to make an appeal to any self described atheist or agnostics out there as to value that they might consider reconsidering God or the divine in some way in their lives? That's a long John de Lynn two part multi part question. But you're brilliant and so I know you can tackle it

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:52:18] well. Let me firstly say that I am 100% convinced that the people that identify as total atheists can live wonderful lives doing what I would call godly things, which they wouldn't even grab that hold of that word. But we as we as humans are given the impulse. I think whether you call it anything about God or not, we're given an inner impulse, except for the few sociopaths who somehow have not been created correctly in their system.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:53:09] But almost all of us have an impulse to Behave well, to do good for others, to appreciate others. And if someone lives that kind of a life and says at the same time, I have no use for the concept of God, for the concept of eternity or the after death life, I'm not about to criticize them at all.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:53:43] But I do feel that it adds a little richness to be open to the possibility that we are part of this huge scheme that does not end death and that we are propelled by something brilliant. That the word God has been badly used maybe, but I think it's still the best word. We have to talk about all of this.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:54:27] And you know, a lot of our scientists, I think, have spent their life in science and made comments I can't come to, I can't find one in my mind right now, but that God is part, whatever we call God is part of this magnificent scientific work that they have been observing and doing.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:54:51] So John, I'm not sure that I have anything really great to answer your question with, but I know that the most firm atheist can be what I myself would qualify as a godly person. So that's all I want to do there.

John Dehlin [00:55:19] What I think I just heard you say, and Margi, you may want to share what you heard Carolyn say. What I heard you say is that there is a sense of awe and connectedness and magic and power and majesty and maybe I'll even put words in your mouth, meaning and purpose that you found in holding on to a very broadly defined sense of the word God. That's added richness and meaning to your life, that's allowed you to hold on to love, science and evidence and physics, but also to stay open to a sense of wonder and connectedness and awe and meaning and purpose that you pick up the stick, that, that has both sides and that you find value in both sides.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:56:15] I, I would accept that.

John Dehlin [00:56:21] Yeah.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:56:22] I mean whatever, whatever God is just is. And in a way it's, it's almost laughable for us to try to, you know, put the pieces together as if we, you know, make, can make a, a good logo out.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:56:39] We. This is such a personal thing and I, I think, when I think there are a lot of people who want to throw away the word God because we have given God such a bad rap. You know, the, the God who is a judgmental creature in the sky, who's making note of all of the good things and the bad things that we do. I gave up that God a long time ago and I think that's the, the, the impetus for so many people saying, you know, I.

Reconsidering God Rather Than Abandoning the Concept

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:57:17] Because they are throwing away a God that I think never really existed, but that we have created out of, out of the worst of the discussion about God that has come down to us from, from, from the ages. You know, we're, we're still, I think, impacted by, by this, this God of centuries and centuries ago who was just waiting for us to make a misstep to throw us into hell forever and ever.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:57:47] There's every good reason to throw that God away. So, you know, we're just talking about something so huge that we really can't get our arms around it. But it, we. We are drawn to talk about it anyway because it still is important to our minds and to our hearts.

John Dehlin [00:58:09] Beautiful. So let's do the flip side of the coin now because as somebody who cares about humanity and history, someone who hates war, someone who hates violence, someone who hates oppression, inequality, patriarchy, personally, like, I can see the massive downside of having our conceptions of God be male only.

Patriarchy, Power, and the Need for Partnership

John Dehlin [00:58:38] And that our sense of authority being male only and our sense of order and just our set of sensibilities as being male only. I think it's led to a world of corruption and violence and war and abuse and inequality that is deeply, deeply problematic. And it just has to be that if we turn down the maleness, the manness of our social structures and belief systems and, and if we turned up the womanness of our social structures, it's going to be better. Now of course, Margi and I don't even like the gender binary language so much these days, but certainly more womanness and less maleness is an improvement over what we have now.

John Dehlin [00:59:41] So can you talk about how interjecting into our sense of divine femaleness or womanness could possibly help us live healthier, happier, more meaningful lives and maybe a healthier social structure? Does that make sense?

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:00:08] Of course it does. And I'm just. It is just so huge. And you know, all of the little poems that I wrote in, in here sort of point to that and feel

John Dehlin [01:00:22] free to pull up any poem you want to read, you know, if anyone occurs to you.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:00:27] Yeah, This won't get exactly close to what we're talking about here. Well, let me just start with this. This is called a little light hearted one called Common Sense. I may not be the sharpest knife in the chandelier or the brightest bulb in the drawer, but seeing the creatures out in the zoo and the creatures up in the blue and the creatures on fifth Avenue who are pretty, equally girl and guy, I will not buy the Brooklyn Bridge nor Will I buy a story that says the creator of all the creatures, including me, was one or two or three male beings?

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:01:15] Never mind how potent their omnipotence might be now. Okay, but more. More specifically to what you were. What you were saying. I think I want to find on page 11 here, a God who looks like me. Why should women not be able to just adore a male God? And then. I know we want to take it further out into what happens to the world when we are without the. The feminine. But here, too, this is a little bit longer, but I. I think it's important. A God who looks like me. I studied the drawings and the statues and the words marked God, hoping to find a face that looks like me.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:02:09] A female face. But they all looked like my brothers. And I love my brothers. But it's like finding an empty stocking on Christmas morning and wondering why I have not been good enough. Not good enough to look like God, but not wanting to spoil the celebration for my brothers who never notice.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:02:31] A voice said, come to the grove. At the grove, there is always a God who looks like you. I went to the grove, and there were ribbon streams that flowed and curved. And there were trees stately in long green gowns that waved in the wind.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:02:51] A voice said, come to the pool. I went to the pool, and I knelt and peered into the water, still as a mirror, still as a moon. And I saw the image of God. There was one face. And then the face became two, like when you stare with soft vision.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:03:14] And one of the faces looked like me. She said, it is wonderful to see you seeing me. He said, I am so sorry. It never was intended that she be erased. Mistakes were made. Then she said, bless you for searching until you found me. And do forgive your brothers, for they knew not what they did. But I knew. And I know. And I weep.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:03:48] You and I are half of heaven, and to forget that is a curse in the land. Then he said, go tell it on the mountain. But this is only a poem. I said, then go read it on the mountain.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:04:06] And then the two faces became one again. A question, if I may. I said hesitantly, are you two or are you one? The water shimmered, and I heard a choral reading of soprano and tenor and smile. We are one that is two and two that are one.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:04:29] How can that be? He said, the solitary one is primordial, but often useless. Imagine that buck without the do. Imagine this H2 without the O, she added. Or distance without time or the occasional essential rhyme. Then both. We do arithmetic differently here.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:04:57] A Soft and rippling laugh like a kiss as the face in the pool, in the grove disappeared. Now to, to what you, you just brought up, an essential statement here is that to forget that whatever God is, is male, us and femaleist, to forget that is a curse in the land.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:05:30] Now we have had a curse in the land for a very long time. It's, as we go back into history, it's hard to find a time when there was a real balance of power between male and female. That's, that's pretty difficult.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:05:47] But the, the patriarchy that looms so large in our history is impossible not to see. And patriarchy is simply incorrect. It is just wrong because it leaves out the presence and the power of the female half, which is at least half because, you know, slightly more than half of the babies born.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:06:25] Well, no. Are male I think because they, they of the, the death rate there. But, but the point is that there is a curse in the land and there has been a curse in the land through the entire centuries of male centered worship.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:06:50] We, you know, we could, the list would go on and on forever of the witch burnings and the crusades and all of the violence that happened that appear to be and really are a male centered phenomenon of maleness exerting its power without the tempering quality that femaleness generally brings into the picture.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:07:24] And so, and see, I like to sort of rise up above the territory and what I call my spiritual helicopter and look down and see where we are right now from my very limited point of view and look back and see history.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:07:40] And as we look at the history of women and men, you know, it was such a dismal, dismal history. And then we see better things happening. You know, we see that finally women getting the vote. We see, you know, today there are more women in the universities than there are in men, which fact I do not like. I want to see a balance in that, that kind of thing. But we're just really beginning to understand what we have lost by excluding the female from our general religious perspective, our general social perspective, so that we, you know, and this, this thing that we call toxic masculinity.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:08:35] I don't, I don't like to see that thrown around just for so many things, but there is an, an excess of, of what we might call the masculine that, that does move us into the darkest times of history.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:08:54] And, and so over here is the future that we're creating right now. And here we are at the moment that we call now this moment. And of course this moment is the Only one we have, because everything does not. Nothing happens in the past, everything happens in the now. And we, at this moment have.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:09:17] We have an awareness. We have a consciousness that people back in the Middle Ages did not have. And it's easy for us to say, well, you know, damn all those things on those people that made those terrible, terrible things happen. But, of course, that's a useless way to use our energy.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:09:38] We have to say, wow, we are here in a time where consciousness has risen to the point where we can finally see the damage that has been done to history, to humanity, to our. To Mother Nature. You know, all of these things about our environment is Mother Nature crying out of how we have damaged her.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:10:09] And much of that because things have been seen through excessively masculine perspective. You know, And I dare say if. If we were a wonderful tribe where we would gather around the fire and to have an equality of chiefs of maleness and femaleness, to work out every problem and have as strong a female input as we have a male input, that's what we need to have in order to create the future that's happening over there.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:10:49] So we have to examine the past and condemn all of the things that brought us to a point where the balance is so skewed. But then the hopeful thing is to say, I'm living not then, I am living now, and I have a vision that they did not have. I am claiming a voice that. That not enough women claimed back there or men claimed who had the vision as well. Because it's not just women who have this vision, as you've explained here, John. We know that you see it clearly, and a lot of men are on board with the phenomenon. And my theme, really, and what I am personally up to, is to work on helping us cross the plains of patriarchy, the rocky plains of patriarchy, into the promised land of partnership.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:11:55] Partnership is a wonderful word. And it is not a killing of patriarchy. It's a birth, another birth of our concept that does not take anything away from the male, takes nothing away from maleness, nothing away from the masculine, because we need that. All this is doing is adding something that has been missing for so long.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:12:32] And for us to have the opportunity now to speak about this, to write about this, is a wonderful thing, because even our words right now are vibrating out into the universe somehow. And the concept of, okay, moving through patriarchy into partnership. Partnership. Partnership. That word just from me right now and from millions of women and maybe using different words, but the concept is vibrant across what the now is and helping to Create this new future where we will never describe it as patriarchy. We will understand that it is partnership and it is, as far as gender goes, the end of the journey. That together each can give our best gifts. And we need that.

John Dehlin [01:13:29] Yeah, we do. That was powerful. I want to jump to talking about the modern LDS or Mormon Church, but before we leave this topic of gender, I think it's essential to lift women's voices, to lift women participation, representation.

John Dehlin [01:13:55] So I'm with you on all of that. We absolutely need to lift all the voices into a sense of partnership because there are people close to us who don't identify as male or female and because there's this emergence in discussion about alternative genders besides male and female, including non binary individuals.

John Dehlin [01:14:29] And there's a long history of that that obviously predates any modern discourse around gender. I do want to just give you a chance to address. And one of the things that I hate more than anything in 2022 is the politicization of gender as a new culture war where people try and say that if we make space for other expressions of gender identity, including non binary, that somehow we're trying to end gender or kill gender.

John Dehlin [01:15:03] I do want to give you a chance to just address this idea that people close to me have introduced that there is a problem with even talking about gender in a binary way. What is maleness? Is it short hair? No. You have short hair. Is it being strong? No, there are many women stronger than me. Is it getting angry? No, women and men get angry. Is it nurturing children? Like. Like the proclamation on the family would say, hopefully dads are nurturing children too.

John Dehlin [01:15:31] And so if it's not hair length or muscles or height or parenting or yeah, aggressiveness or whatever, it can easily make you just realize that this whole gender binary has done us a huge disservice. It's provided some order and some structure, but it's also introduced as many problems maybe as it's. As it's solved. Do you. And even with the concept of the divine, I'm guessing that your sense of the divine transcends gender ultimately to be more than just a combination of maleness and femaleness.

John Dehlin [01:16:10] So start with just society. And if you also share a concern about just the gender binary, and then if you want to talk about whether your sense of the divine actually transcends a gender binary, I don't want to leave this talk of gender without at least making space for that discussion.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:34] And

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:16:37] that is not really something that I have addressed in a significant way. Of course I have not written anything on that. And I, my, my thinking has not really focused on that in, in a way that, you know that people who have that in, in their immediate lives are invited to focus on that. I know that there are people who, who experience, you know, especially trans people. I have several people in my life that I know have been greatly blessed by being able to make that change.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:17:28] I, my brain is not able to make the kind of sense out of the idea that the extent of the non binary that is moving in our social circles today, I'm, I'm not able to really grasp that in a way that I can make the best sense of it in my, in my mind now. You know, back when Gerald and I were having our most difficult discussions and I wanted more than anything to save our marriage. And I thought, Gerald, you have to see, you have to see that what, what is needed in this world

Margi Dehlin [01:18:22] is

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:18:22] maleness and femaleness together. These are what complement each other. You have to see that you as a man need a woman in your life to balance that. And I as a woman need a man. Maleness and femaleness have to balance each other. And Gerald's response would be, and I know this came numerous times, I understand that, but Blossom, and he always called me that, you have to understand that there are some of us who experience that combination of maleness and femaleness inside of ourselves.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:19:04] And that did not make sense to me then. And there's a way in which it still doesn't make sense to me, except I know that it makes sense to the people who, who experience that. And so I am committed that we find ways to incorporate the authentic experiences that people have and honor those people in our personal and our religious, our political, our general societal lives. And I wish I had more personally to add to that, but that's about all I have.

John Dehlin [01:19:53] Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [01:19:54] Yeah, I mean, I was thinking as you were talking, John, this idea of what it means to be socialized in a gender and how that really can change depending on what culture you're kind of raised in. So really when we're talking about even the, this idea of masculine or feminine, how culturally informed that is and really how gendered attributes we're talking about, like gendered attributes or characteristics that then we group people into and make associations. But I really love this idea of just like a fully embodied experience as human beings that very much is on a spectrum for people.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:38] And as Carolyn was talking about, this idea of partnership, right? Patriarchy to partnership in a very much. I see that as like a lived experience. But it also, like when I'm thinking about, you know, people that were socialized as men, right. And what it means to not have women, to not respect, you know, people socialized as women. Right. Or female in their lives, that it ultimately they're denying a whole set of human attributes for themselves. So it's a loss for them internally. It's not just in relationship to, or this lived experience. Does that make sense? It's like then if. If you're socialized as male and.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:26] And really, you know, living this masculine self, you only have a certain set of, you know, emotions and kind of human experiences that are accessible to you. So the individual. And that's same for. For, you know, people socialized as women, right? If you're kind of looking at feminine and bring the feminine, and that's what I have. Or you're. You're losing out on this whole set of characteristics that are regarded as. As more masculine. So the whole. Isn't the whole idea to sort of. That's why you were talking about kind of where gender becomes extremely limiting to these discussions, because what isn't, what we're really after, that a human, regardless of gender, can live fully embodied with a fully, you know, this.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:17] These experiences of sometimes I. I feel aggressive, sometimes I feel patient, sometimes I feel really nurturing sometimes, sometimes I show sadness and cry and grieve, you know, and it's not particularly even about gender. It's about what it means to be fully human. And individuals would benefit from that fully embodied experience and relationships would benefit from that. That experience too. It's inner and external. Does that make sense?

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:22:51] Yes, I can see that, Margi. I can see that. Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:22:57] Well, beautiful. Well, what I think I want to do, Carolyn, if it's okay, and Margi, if it's okay, I want to go ahead and have this be its own. Part one to our interview, I think that we talked enough about God and the divine and Mother in heaven and, you know, gender in heaven, that this should be its own encapsulated episode. That way we can launch into a part two, Carolyn, talk about your participation in the church and have that be also, because I know there's a lot of people that are going to be saying, how can anybody stay a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints in 2022, especially if they care about things like women's rights and LGBTQ rights, et cetera.

Introducing the Love Map and Wrapping Part One

John Dehlin [01:23:45] So I think I want that to be its own segment, but I want to say that we're still going to be talking about the Love Map, which is a new book that we're going to end by talking about that. And Carolyn, I want you to hold up the book that we've been talking about, because I think a lot of people would benefit from buying that book and learning about it. Finding Mother Poems to Heal the World by Carolyn Pearson. It's a beautiful book.

John Dehlin [01:24:16] So as we sort of just say we're going to wrap up this episode, Carolyn, for those who came here to learn about the divine, giving God another chance and considering adding some womanness to their concepts or femininity to their concepts of the divine, any final words you want to share?

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:24:38] I like what you just said, John. Give God another chance. You know, humans have. Have created images about who, what God is forever and ever and ever. Let us be bold enough to trust ourselves, to work with whatever we might have received and revise it in a way that feels more godly to us. So I think maybe some of your reader, some of your listeners would. Would benefit from giving God another chance and participating in establishing what God really must be.

John Dehlin [01:25:23] You know, I was delighted to see that you were still writing because for some reason I had the impression that the Ghost of Eternal Polygamy was going to be your last book. So I'm delighted to see that you keep plugging. But I wonder whether there's a book in you called Give God Another Chance. I wonder if you would ever want to write on encouraging this new wave of atheists to not completely discard a belief in God.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:25:51] I'll put that on the list to ponder. Thanks for the thought.

John Dehlin [01:25:59] All right. All right, everybody, we're going to wrap up this episode as part one. Please check out carolynpierson.com we have a bunch of links in the show notes to our past interviews with Carolyn Pearson. Of course, the Love Map is available on Amazon, but if you want a signed copy like ours with Carolyn Pearson's own signature, you can go to CarolynPierson.com, order the book directly from her. Amazon maybe won't take its cut. And she will.

John Dehlin [01:26:32] She'll sign it for you. But also check out the Ghost of Eternal Polygamy and Finding Mother God, Goodbye, I Love youe, and a gazillion other books written by Carolyn Pearson. And don't go away. Come right back for part two of our interview with Carolyn Pearson, where we will be answering the question, how can anyone who cares about women's rights, about LGBTQ rights, about humanity, about truth, about historical truth, about history, and even abuse, how can anyone who shares those values remain an active participatory member of the Mormon Church or the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. That's coming right up. Thanks, Margi. It's great to have you.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:18] Yeah, my pleasure.

John Dehlin [01:27:19] And thanks, Carolyn. You're a legend. We love you.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:27:22] Thank you. Always great to be with you.

John Dehlin [01:27:25] All right, don't go away. Come right back for part two with Carolyn Pearson. Take care, everybody.

Part Two: Faith Crisis and Staying in the Church

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 1709

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am one of your hosts for today, John Dehlin. I am here with my partner in truth and righteousness, Margi Delenn. Hey, Margi.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:00:10] Hey, babe.

John Dehlin [00:00:11] Thanks for joining.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:12] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:00:12] We are here in part two of an interview with one of our heroes, a giant in our lives, the one, the only, Carolyn Pearson. Hey, Carolyn Pearson.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:00:24] Well, hi there.

John Dehlin [00:00:26] Welcome back.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:00:27] Thank you so much. Great to be with you.

John Dehlin [00:00:30] We just spent over an hour with an episode that we're going to call Giving God Another Chance and is basically just an updated view, a view on how author and poet Carolyn Pearson and leaders. Carolyn Pearson, how she views God, Introducing the idea of the feminine divine into your sense of God.

John Dehlin [00:00:52] And just this idea of giving God another chance, that that's part one. We referenced a million books and past Mormon stories episodes. I'm not going to rehash all those. Go watch part one along with all the other references and links we have. What we're going to be answering today as a primary part of today's episode, we're going to be trying to answer this question. How can someone like Carolyn Pearson, who cares about social justice, who cares about women, who's a feminist, who's, who cares about race issues, who cares about history and LGBT people, who cares about all these things, how can she remain a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, where she even attends church, how does that happen?

John Dehlin [00:01:41] So many people like, of course, there's still, I don't know, 4 or 5 million people in the world that remain members of the church. But oftentimes when somebody becomes, let's just say, more progressive, not politically necessarily, but in their sensibilities around issues like feminism, race racism, social justice, historical truth claims, they're out of there. They leave the Mormon Church. But somehow, Carolyn Pearson, you have maintained a faith and you maintain the Mormon Church participation. And so we want to dig into that today. And of course, we want to end by talking about what love means and talking about this book, the Love Map. But, you know, as we begin this episode by talking about your church participation, you know, let me just ask you this, Carolyn Pearson.

John Dehlin [00:02:36] Did you ever have what many would term today a crisis of faith or a faith crisis where you had a more orthodox set of beliefs, anthropomorphic God. The Mormon Church is the one true church, exclusive priesthood authority. Joseph Smith was a prophet. The Book of Mormon is a literal translation of an ancient record. Just take all the literalistic Mormon Church truth claims that we've been Reviewing recently on our LDS discussions series, did you ever have a traditional Mormon faith to even lose, or did you never even have that to begin with? Let's start there.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:03:18] Indeed, I did have a very traditional Mormon faith. And you're asking me about my version of a faith crisis. And when, when I hear people talking about their, their faith crises and, and how it just makes them so sad.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:03:43] I think I have to describe my faith crisis. Well, I did sort of in the ghost of eternal polygamy, when, and, and way back, you know, when. When my, when my marriage fell apart and I had to acknowledge that this was not going to be what I expected my marriage to be.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:04:13] And it was so explosively disruptive that everything fell on the floor. My marriage was in shambles, my confidence in God was in shambles, my relationship with the church was in shambles. And I had to get down on my knees and pick up every one of those broken shards and say, I'm still living. I've got four children. I have to manage to figure out a life that I can inhabit.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:04:54] And so I looked at every piece of my faith, in everything and everybody, and I studied that piece to say, is this something I can hold on to, or is this something I need to throw away? And so I threw away a lot of things.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:05:15] I threw away. And we're speaking about the church right now. So I threw away a lot of things about the church at that time and before and in subsequent times. As an example, I totally threw away the concept of eternal polygamy. I threw away the concept of patriarchy, really that maleness is a commodity superior to femaleness.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:05:45] I threw away, in fact, the idea that God is most especially sometimes only interested in this church that I have been taught to call the only true church. From then on, I was not really thinking about, is the church true? But is the church good and is there godliness here now?

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:06:19] And I suggested just a second ago that when I hear people talk about the pain that they're going through because of a faith crisis, as I really examined my faith crisis, I was joyful, saying, oh, good, I. I get to throw away polygamy altogether. That was never anything that God established. That was one of Joseph's errors. Oh, that brought, that brought me such peace and such a smile.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:06:54] Oh, and I can throw away the idea that I am so special, that of all of the billions in this world, I am special because I was, I was saved for the latter day to do all this wonderful stuff. And, you know, that kind of had given me a good feeling about, wow, I really am special. But I like more believing that I am not special.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:07:22] I mean, everybody, especially in their own way. But I love the knowledge that this globe is teeming with individuals who are as special as any Mormon person ever was in the eyes of God. And so that was my faith crisis and could I maintain with all of that inside this institution. So, John, you may remember that years ago, you and I were both speaking on a Sunstone event, asked to speak on why I stay.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:08:02] You were in the middle of your really difficult times. I know, because I remember that as you walked up to the podium, you were, you were almost crying. And I know that you went through a great deal of hell in trying to figure out all of that. I had done a fair amount of figuring out already at that point. And you, you may remember that, that what I said of why I stay is that. And as we have established in our, our earlier discussion this morning, that the only thing I can really hang on to about what God is, is God is love. And therefore, wherever I see love happening, I see God happening.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:08:57] Now I continued, and I continue today to see a lot of love happening. Well, everywhere in the world. You know, I applauded whenever these brilliant moments of true individual societal love are evidenced. But we're speaking specifically of the LDS Church.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:09:23] And in, in my whole journey and certainly today, I see a great deal of love being manifest within the membership that I engage with. And therefore I see godliness. And so where there is love, there is God and there is God within the love that I see in the LDS Church. And in addition to that, and very primary to what we're talking about, where I do not see love, I know that God is not there.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:10:06] And consequently within this organization that we call the LDS Church, where I do not see love happening, I have an opportunity to bring love into the situation and therefore to bring more godliness into the situation. And you know, in my ward, I see a great deal of love happening. I can be part of it. I have received love and care from the people in my ward when I have needed it. And I am there to love and to give.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:10:50] Where I see love not happening, meaning God is not happening, I have an opportunity to do what I can to remedy that. Now in my ward, we have a brand new bishop. I sat down with him for the first time about three weeks ago and I said, bishop, you don't know a whole lot about me. I think he said, well, I know, I know a fair amount about you, but I want to know more. So tell Me? Who are you?

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:11:18] And I said, well, I am one of your somewhat unorthodox but highly useful members of the ward. And I had brought with me a little stack of I had signed to him and to his wife, the Ghost of Eternal Polygamy, Finding Mother God and the Love Map. And I said these books will tell you quite a bit about who I am. And he was very happy to receive them. So we just talked for an hour and I just started telling him my experiences and why and how I have committed myself to doing certain things to make our mutual church experience for everybody, not just me, not just the cutting the pattern Mormons, but for everybody.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:12:21] You know. I told him my experience in writing the Ghost of Eternal Polygamy, how I counseled with my Stake Presidency and told them exactly what I was doing and they were totally on board. How I sent that book to all the general authorities, signed and a copy to each wife as well. The copy signed to the brother saying in appreciation and in hope that you will lead us into a truly post polygamy future.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:12:56] See, the quick answer to your question is that I would not be able to stay in this church if I did not have and take the opportunity to make this organization. And this may be an arrogant statement to, to better it.

Resisting Patriarchy from Within Mormonism

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:13:17] Now that in our, in our first, in our conversation, just a little, a little bit, the first episode that we did here, I acknowledge that, that my calling and I feel that this is a calling, whether it's from God, whether it's from life, whether it's from my DNA, whatever it is. I have a calling to address the issues that have been brought into my life and I've been given the tools in order to address them.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:13:54] So here I am addressing the huge phenomenon of patriarchy as it affects women, as it affects people of more modified gender issues. And so I have been given a calling to be on the front lines. Well, I have been given the opportunity to be on the front lines of patriarchy.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:14:26] And I consider that the LDS Church is a wonderful place to be on the front lines of addressing the patriarchal phenomenon. And I'm not going to give up, see, I could drop out of the church and create a good life for myself and continue to do good work.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:14:52] But if you're engaged in, and I don't know, I don't like the word battle, but I'm going to say it, we're sort of battling against the phenomenon of patriarchy. I could go and be an important member possibly of the various community of Christ, for example.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:15:18] But if you're really invested in a phenomenon the way I am invested in the phenomenon of transforming patriarchy into partnership. Why wouldn't you want to be on the front lines? And I am on the front lines in my church, loving this organization, loving the people in this organization, and also seeing with very clear eyes the damage that is being done under the banner of patriarchy.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:15:58] So that is why I am here. Now maybe the interesting stuff around all this is why I have been allowed to stay here and do my work. And that's not really for me to judge. I am just here to do the best I can with the calling that I have been given to do this and then to take whatever comes from it.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:16:28] Now, see, the fact is that I am much loved in my ward and in my stake. I have not been called in. I have been very open about all of my work and about my ideas. Incidentally, I do not disrupt any meeting. I, I have had bishops thank me for not bringing my issues into the chapel.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:16:56] I, I write a book, I hire a theater to do Mother Woe of the Morning. And, and of course, that affects everything that, that I'm doing certainly within the church now. Well, for example, let, let me take us back to the, to the 90s. And, and as you know, that was kind of a difficult, dangerous time. And there were excommunications there, high level one, I mean, high profile ones.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:17:23] Now during the 90s, I was performing Mother Woe of the Morning over 300 times. And I would visit with my then stake president who brought the guests to see me perform that play in San Francisco at least three times because he told me, he loved to show me off and say to his high powered guests, look, we can do this kind of thing in our church. Isn't this great?

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:17:50] And he and I, as we discussed a number of times, various things, he said, yes, Carolyn, I get calls from Salt Lake City about you. And I had learned he had received calls seven different times about me from Salt Lake City saying, should we be doing something about Sister Pearson? And he told me, I say to them, leave her alone. She does better PR for this church than you could ever buy. Leave her alone.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:18:18] Now, maybe I have just been given a special blessing of having priesthood leaders who see the value of what I'm doing and who I am. And, and I know that's true because I speak to them, but I, and if I had been living in Utah in the 90s, I likely would have gone the way that the September 6th people did. Who knows?

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:18:49] All I know is that I have A calling to do what I'm doing. I do it openly, I do it kindly, I do it with love. And, and that's all I know. I'm doing what I have been called to do. So let's just go from there.

Navigating LGBTQ Issues and Selective Participation

John Dehlin [00:19:13] Wow. Well, now I've got like 10 questions I want to ask you, but that's a great, that's a great opening. So you talked about and. Yeah, so I have so many places I want to jump. So you talked about after your faith crisis, everything falling to the floor and you examining each piece of your Mormonism, picking it up and then discarding the things that you no longer liked or wanted to accept or that you thought were bad. One of the most common responses that both orthodox Mormons and formerly orthodox, now ex Mormons who are upset will say is that's not Mormonism. To pick and choose what things you like and what things you don't.

John Dehlin [00:20:06] What sections of the Doctrine and Covenants are okay and which ones are not, what doctrine's okay, what's not. That's not Mormonism. Mormonism is what the brethren say at General Conference. It's what's in the scriptures. It's what Joseph Smith taught. And you. So number one, picking and choosing is not Mormonism. The Church tells you what Mormonism is. You, Carolyn Pearson, don't get to decide what Mormonism is. And secondly, by what authority do you think you're allowed to pick and choose? What would you say to those arguments?

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:20:42] I laugh at those arguments. I think that, that every one of us does or should place in our hands everything that we read, everything we hear and, and, and make an evaluation and, and of course, do do so. But, but with a confidence that says, I, I really believe that strongly. I'm, I'm, I'm keeping that to help build my, my, my personal house on, or this other thing. This does not feel right to me. I'm, I'm not going to include it.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:34] Now,

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:21:37] as I said, as we know, I have been very public in my writings, But I, when I am, when I am in my, in, in the chapel with the people that I love and appreciate and exchanging, giving and taking love there, I do not become abrasive.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:22:10] And, and so far, nobody has said to me, well, you seem to be a cafeteria Mormon. You're, you're not choosing this and this and this and everything. So you're out. You're out. I believe that there are people who have had that very experience.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:22:30] I'm not one of them, and maybe I'm just a hopeful example that for people who want to maintain within the church, believing as I do that. And you know, John, you yourself have said that it's pretty impossible to find a way to duplicate the community phenomenon that, that the Mormon Church has.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:23:01] And, and I, I find that to be true. You know, there comes a need and instantly there's a way to fulfill it. What I, I might see a need, which, which I did recently. I, I, and I, someone that I was visiting teacher too for years. I'm still in touch with her even though she's in a different ward now, but not being treated as well as she was in, in my ward. And I learned from her that she didn't have a place to go on Thanksgiving and I was going to be out of town for Thanksgiving. So I called our, I emailed our Relief Society president, a fabulous never married woman, and I said, listen, I need you to do something, if you would.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:23:45] I know that there's some people in the ward who open their homes to make sure that everybody has a place to come for Thanksgiving. Our friend, I mentioned her name, who is no longer in our ward, but she is still our sister. And so I'm asking you to see if you can find someone in the ward who will be willing to invite her in for Thanksgiving. And of course that was easily done. I know it was easily done because I spoke to that woman and she was so pleased to have been invited by this fine family in her former ward.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:24:20] And not long ago I emailed that same Relief Society president and I said, listen, I need to ask, it's my turn to ask for some compassionate service. I need to go up to Sacramento to the memorial service for a brother of mine who passed away and I don't drive on the freeway anymore. And I think we can do that.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:24:45] The next day I got an email from a friend who is, by the way, a former bishop in the ward who said, carolyn, I'd love to drive you up to Sacramento. We can have so many good conversations on the way.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:24:57] So you see there are some kind of unique phenomena happening here of people being taken care of by their group, their tribe, their family in a way that I honor a lot. And I know that much of this can happen in other churches and in other groups who are not churches.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:25:26] But this happens to be the one that I was placed in. And as long as I'm going to be allowed to continue my work, which is to hold up to the light things that are not correct and not godly, I'm just going to stay here.

John Dehlin [00:25:48] I relate to that, and just to really put a fine point on it, because I think many people who are raised orthodox Mormons just don't feel like they have the permission to pick and choose. But they listen to their ces, you know, seminary teachers, their CES directors, their, you know, you know, general, certain general authorities, their parents, whoever it is, they got the message that, that Mormonism is not about picking and choosing. Mormonism is not about a buffet where you eat the things you like and you don't eat the things you don't like. They have been left with the impression that it's take it all or leave it all completely.

John Dehlin [00:26:32] So I'm going to ask you again to just, if you can find a way to summarize the question. By what authority, Carolyn Pearson, do you feel like you are allowed to pick and choose? And I think the more important question is for those listeners who don't feel like they have that power or authority or permission, where can they get it? How can they get it? And the permission to pick and choose and to make Mormonism what they want.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:27:03] Wow. Well, that's a, that's a huge, a huge thing to get into, John. I don't know. See, just looking at history, there has always been conflicts between individuals and religions. Now, somehow or other, you see, I want to invite people to claim their own authority.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:27:45] Not to be just for the sake of being rebellious, not for the sake of being lazy, but to see the word authority is related to the word author. And every one of us authors our own lives, we are the author of our experience.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:28:06] And I think we do have authority to say, this feels correct to me, and this other does not feel correct to me. Now, throughout history, we have these remarkable stories, you know. Well, we have Joan of Arc, who I was privileged to play in the drama about her life on the BYU stage when I was a student there.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:28:41] And maybe some of that concept has, is still in my cells. But even before that, see, all of us, when we see movies or stage plays about somebody whose conscience wins over the surrounding demands, we are inspired by that individual.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:29:15] And, you know, these things that I'm talking about me and my own personal life with the church, these are, these are pretty small, small things. But keep in mind, John, that I am the woman who performed Joan of Arc on the BYU stage. And, and I, even before that, and certainly since, that I have believed in personal authority and that sometimes personal authority has to trump the authority of anybody else.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:29:45] Now, I have not, and I do not expect that I will, like Joan, be burned at the stake center, that's not going to happen for me. I think I'm past that danger. I hope that I am. But if that had happened along the way and see, I'm not hiding any of my, if you might call them heresies, if you would call it a heresy for me to write a book saying that our founding father, Joseph Smith made an error in establishing polygamy and that God was never a part of it, someone could say that is, that's heresy. She should be cut off immediately.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:30:38] I sent that book to all the general authorities. I had already discussed this book and had my state presidency read it and nobody had any interest in taking me to task on it. So I'm not sure what I'm saying here except that if we, if we belong to an organization, we have to follow the authority to a large extent. You know, being being citizens of the United States, we, we have to follow certain laws and in general these are good laws to protect everybody.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:31:20] Organizations like churches that we, we participate by virtue of our choice, usually our heritage, We hopefully can contribute to making that a good and healthy place. And if it is not, we can choose either to leave or to do what we can to make it a healthier place.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:31:48] So I guess I would, I, I would, I perhaps encourage people who are listening to this to sort of think, okay, I, I, I have deep roots in the LDS Church. I want to stay here, but I really troubled it. This and this and this.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:32:14] I'm just asking everyone to be a little bit braver than you may have been before. And I don't know about making a big public, I mean sometimes making a big public exhibit is the thing that is called for.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:32:32] That has not been what I have been called to do. But I would not be able to stay in the church if I did not feel that I had a voice, if I didn't feel that my feelings counted. And I've been so fortunate in that the people in leadership around me have understood that what I am offering here is valuable.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:33:00] So I want to invite everybody who wants to stay in the church. And John, I know that your particular story, that you wanted to stay in the church for a long period of time, you wanted to even when you were going through the most difficult things.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:33:17] But you know, in that case, that's just a dramatic case of the authority above you simply cutting you off, which I personally feel is an incorrect thing to be done. But for those who want to stay, I, I, I, I could either have a voice in the, in, in the church or leave.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:33:49] And, and you Know, actually I, I, I, I don't think I've ever mentioned this, but there were six months that I went inactive in the church. You know, when, when, when Prop 8 happened and this presidency that I have already referenced that I had had become so very close to, they and I went through the hell of being in LDS community during Prop 8. It was really dreadful. And of course the church is not apologizing for that, but there is a general understanding that they knew they made some significant missteps at that time.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:34:28] Anyway, I was a valuable resource to my stake presidency during that time. And just at the, at the end of the, of the, all this conflict when the brethren were asking people to give everything they could of their time, of their resources, and people were giving their whole life savings into the Stop the, the marriage gay marriage thing in, in California, In, in my, my state, we were headed by very level headed good men and we, anyway, at the end of that terrible thing when I, I heard some of the general, general authorities giving these talks to the young people, you got to do this for the Lord.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:35:21] You got to get out there and make sure you go to house to house. You, we, you know, we've got to, we've got to pass Prop 8. And I don't know when I, when I heard that there was something in me that said I don't know if I belong there anymore. I don't know.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:35:39] I said next week, I can't, I, I can't go to church next week. And I didn't, and then I didn't go the next week and I didn't go the next week. But I continued to be in touch with my good stake presidency, giving them good ideas of what they could do to do some healing of all that had gone wrong here.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:36:02] And anyway, six months into my inactivity, I got a call from a former bishop who was now in the State presidency that I had worked so closely with. And he said, Carolyn, that we, the State Presidency, are ready to, to do some things and utilize some of the good ideas that you've been giving us. Would you be willing to meet with us? And I said, hallelujah, of course I will.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:36:31] So I went to an evening meeting with the three of those spectacularly good men and they had already decided. My stake president was a very smart man. Don't let anybody tell you that I was running anything about what they were doing. I was a valuable resource. But he had already determined from his own conviction that he was going to

John Dehlin [00:36:55] hold

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:36:57] kind of a fifth Sunday meeting in each of the wards and to have a particular meeting about how we can better love and understand our LGBT brothers and sisters. And so we talked about that and I gave them some further good ideas. And, and so the next Sunday, and they did, they went through our, our stake and did splendid.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:37:34] Little gatherings where a, a member of each ward who had a particular investment in this, a gay child, for example, that, that person spoke for five or 10 minutes telling their experience. And, and the whole thing was so healing and so many good things happened in our stake and, and they said nothing that would be condemned by, by central church leadership, but they did push the, the, the, the subject in, in a way that was strong, that we have to better understand and love our LGBT brothers and sisters. So any, any. Anyway, I, when we got that going and I, I had already said to my stake president, listen, I think if, if, if, if you find something to do that can help heal the problems in our stake, I'll come back and help you do it.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:38:34] Other than that, I'm not sure I'm coming back to church. And so after this opening happened, I just walked back into the chapel the next Sunday. Everybody loved me. I was asked to teach her lesson in Relief Society a couple of weeks after that. And so that, that was my period of inactivity.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:38:56] So, see, I'm, and I know I'm an odd phenomenon. I do have a position that I wish everyone had. I do have a voice that I wish everyone had. But whatever your position and your voice are, you've been given it so that, so you can use it. And if you are going to remain within this church, use it. And use it, of course, as, as you, you have to filter it through the whole concept of God, which is love.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:39:32] And if you're, if you're convinced that what you're offering is a loving and a godly thing, you have to give it. And you know, so, so my work for LGBTQ people, I know has been remarkable because I hear from them all the time and my work for women, the same.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:39:57] And I, and I'm not going to give up my voice. And I have no belief that I am in danger of being cut out of the church. So that's my personal story, and I'm just asking everyone who wants to participate to let this be your arena and do your work here. And if this is not the place for you, you can do wonderful work elsewhere.

John Dehlin [00:40:31] Thank you for sharing that story, Carolyn. Let me ask several follow ups. What if somebody were to say, but Carolyn, you haven't made a difference? Women still don't have the priesthood in 2022. In the Mormon Church, to be gay is still a sin. In the Mormon Church in 2022, you can still be excommunicated for having a committed, loving gay or lesbian relationship.

John Dehlin [00:41:01] You can be excommunicated for being same sex married. The church is still against same sex marriage. The church still views gay and lesbians as sinners and as excommunicable. And in just so many ways, the church is still doing the same harm it was doing 30 or 40 years ago.

John Dehlin [00:41:23] You really haven't made much of a difference. Carolyn Pearson. This isn't so much to ask about your particular difference. I think it's more of a question about how can someone look at the church and say, wow, positive things have happened and maybe if I stick around, maybe I can do positive things too. It's a question about, I guess, expectations and impact, velocity of progress and impact. Do you understand what, what I'm asking there, Carolyn?

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:41:57] Yes, I do, I do. And see, we're, we're talking it in one way. We're talking about the, the, the process of history. And history does move very slowly. And then something happens, you know, like a tipping point is reached. And so I'm totally unwilling to say that my work has not had an impact on the institution.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:42:32] Now certainly the brethren did not all of a sudden say, wow, look at this great book she's written. This is all powerful stuff. We've got to do something about this. However, that is one of the many things that eventually will, will cause for significant change. Let's just talk about the, the subject of this horrific concept of eternal polygamy. The damages marriages right now, today damages the minds and the hearts of women and the men.

Eternal Polygamy and Unresolved Church Doctrines

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:43:14] It would be hard to look at the church and say, oh look, look, this big change happened because Carolyn Pearson made that happen. No, and I'm not necessarily expecting that in my lifetime I'm going to see anything like that. But I do know that my work in these various areas have changed the lives positively for untold numbers of human beings.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:43:46] And there is where my satisfaction and my determination lies. Because I receive, I received and, and I continue to receive notes from, say, gay men reminding me that I saved their lives, they were going to commit suicide when, you know, I wrote Goodbye, I love you, and from women who tell me that they're so grateful for my book, the Ghost of Eternal Polygamy, because.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:44:22] They always, they knew they had to throw away the concept of polygamy, but they thought that to do that, they were going to have to, have to throw away the whole church. And that reading that book showed them that they don't have to. If they want to throw away polygamy totally and stay in the church, they can make that decision to do it.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:44:41] And I have had people tell me, well, here's, here's a more recent one. Now this, this should just break your heart. This should break the hearts of all the general authorities. The woman wrote, my husband wept when he finished reading the Ghost of Eternal Polygamy.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:45:04] Until then, he had never understood the anguish that I had gone through all the years of our lives. She said, I love my husband with all my heart, but I felt compelled to withhold a part of myself, a part of my heart and soul from him because I was anticipating that somewhere, even in the eternities, I was going to have to share him and see him behaving with other women, the way he behaves with me.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:45:32] She said, I wish now, because I can throw all that away because of reading your book and believing how you describe all that, how I wish I could get those years back, those years when I did not have that, those years when my soul was damaged because I had been assured that I would likely experience eternal polygamy. How I wish I could get those years back.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:46:05] Now, see, I call that wicked. It is evil to let so many women feel that about themselves, feel that about their marriages. And whether I think ultimately this book that I wrote is going to have an impact somewhere down the line on shifting this ridiculous concept that we're going to offer eternal marriage, eternal polygamy, to every man who wants to have another second woman sealed to him with the first is dead or divorced. That somewhere is going to change because it has to.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:46:48] And, and what I have contributed will be part of that. In the meantime, see, I, I, I'm convinced of a particular philosophy I, I learned from a writer named Byron Katie, that everything in my life is either my business, God's business, or your business.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:47:16] Now, in we're speaking about the church here, and let's talk specifically about this whole rotten thing of eternal polygamy. My business. I have no business in thinking I should run the church. My business is to let those who do run the church understand the pain, the distress, often the destroyed marriages that are happening because of that concept.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:47:55] So I stay in my business and I do it well, and I give the brethren what I believe they need to know in order to do their business.

John Dehlin [00:48:11] I love it. And part of what I heard you say is that your focus isn't on changing the church, maybe it's primarily on changing the lives positively, impacting the lives positively of the members of the church. Is that part of what I heard you say?

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:48:29] Yes, yes, I certainly say that. But I also say that, that the things that I'm committed to. Let's just isolate getting rid of the concept of eternal polygamy and being serious and enthusiastic about shifting the concept of God into bringing the feminine, bringing the mother back into the equation now because we have, you know, our Mormon language is already very clearly figured out the way that that has to happen there. Because, you know, the words heavenly Father are the words that we understand, the words that we use. And so adding the words heavenly Mother, that's the kind of LDS thing that, that happens that then needs to be done.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:49:32] You know, those of us who are thinking a little more esoterically will, will utilize that, the concept of, of God maybe in, in little more poetic ways, larger ways than just a father, a mother, in, in the way that we, that we visualize them. But, but you know, because that's the way that our church language is. That's the step that, that needs to be taken right now. So, yes, I am hoping that my work will at some point invite church leadership to think more truly and sincerely about the necessity, the opportunity of bringing the feminine back into the Godhead and also of eliminating some of the troublesome things, number one being eternal polygamy. I do want to change the church in those particular ways.

John Dehlin [00:50:36] Got it. Carolyn. You know, you framed in today's discussion very early on when you talked about having your faith crisis, sort of asking yourself the question if the church is good. And I want to follow that a little bit because I think one of the causes of so many people leaving the Mormon church in 2022 is that they look at the patriarchy, they look at women being second class citizens, they look at LGBTQ anxiety and depression and suicidality, you know, celibacy, the travesty of LGBTQ celibacy and mixed orientation marriages, which you know more about than, than all of us, the deceptions about history, the general just rigidity of the leadership and almost the callousness of the leadership in response to all of these marginalized groups, not to mention the mixed orientation marriages and the unnecessary divorce and family division that is accompanying Mormonism in the modern era.

John Dehlin [00:51:53] There are so many people who, you know, their testimony falls apart, all their bits of Mormonism fall to the ground. And they start looking at all these Mormon pieces like you did, to try and decide if the Church is actually good, and they end up coming down on the side of the modern Mormon church being wicked, more wicked and evil than good.

John Dehlin [00:52:20] How. What would you say to people who are inclined to just say, the church is too rotten, I don't want to stay in it. Ethically, I can't stay in it. It's too rotten, it's too wicked. What would you say to those people? And how have you avoided viewing the church that way and instead seeing it more good than bad and good enough to be willing to stay within it and fight it or fight evil within it? I should say.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:52:54] Okay, boy, okay, that's, that's really tough, John, for, for someone who observes all the difficulties in the church and says, I don't see enough good here that I want to stick around, I honor that. I would not sit down, I would not argue with that person, say, oh, wait, let me tell you this, you can't leave. No.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:53:23] My best female friends have left the church. Close family members have. I do not have one thought that they're not being correct in, in how they vision their own lives and what they want to see and how they are making their evaluations. I, I honor that.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:53:49] I don't, I don't. Well, I'm wondering if we want to use the term evil, but, and John, of course, you know, everything that you enumerated there. I, I see. And, and I'm sure you will understand that I do get angry.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:54:18] I, I get angry. I get very, you know, I write in my diary and I get snippy and I get judgmental and I, but I, I think it's only useful to, to try, to, to try to heal things rather than to destroy them. Now, wait, that, that's, that's not going to even sound sound right, because.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:54:49] Okay, can this marriage be saved? There are a lot of marriages that ought not to be saved, but some should be saved. And there are a lot of people I know who want to remain in the church and in our church, and there should be an avenue for that to happen if they want to see my, my difference in what. Everything you described there is that I do see those things, but I know that I have been planted here to, to try to heal some of the damage that I see being done.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:55:35] Now, I'm not lying when I see, when I say that I see so many loving interactions and helpfulness and true Christ like experience being shared by the membership. When I talk like that, I'm mostly focusing on my down on the ground ward experience.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:56:02] Sometimes it's really difficult for Me. And so sometimes I just don't think about Salt Lake City very much. I think about the group of people here who are committed to treating one another the way that Jesus asked us to treat one another and doing it very successfully and knowing that wonderful things are happening all over the world and that if I were a part of that community, I'd be doing the same thing in that community.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:56:35] But I happen to have been planted in this community, and somehow I have had enough. A good experience and knowledge that the people in my ward love and appreciate me. And knowing that the things that I give out into the church membership in general, knowing that I have confidence that those things are correct and helpful and things that are loving and are godly, I just know that this is a fertile place for me personally to work.

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:57:25] That's all. I know John and Margi, and I'm not. I'm definitely not in any way discounting the decisions and the correctness and whatever of people who say, boy, this stack of problems that I'm seeing here is something I don't want to be a part of. I'm out of here. I so understand that. I just have a particular mission to do, and I'm doing it.

John Dehlin [00:57:58] Beautiful. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:00] I was curious about connecting with you for a minute, about what it means and how it feels for you to do this work. So my question is kind of around your overall experience. You've kind of expressed that you have voice. You have this kind of area where you can write and express some of the things that are, let's just say, harder aspects of Mormonism for you. And then you have kind of this rich. I mean, I'm feeling from you a rich community locally where there's just a lot of love or what you would say, kind of godly showing up. Right. And so I guess my question is, you know, you talked a little bit earlier about when you show up.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:55] I think this was around excommunication, kind of how you've been allowed, how you've continued to be able to do the work kind of in your community. And so does it feel. How does it feel for you, let's just say, in your meetings, knowing that every ward kind of has its own kind of culture, there's some leeway as to, like, how lessons are taught, what you're hearing, particular messages around lgbtqia, you know, human beings. But how does it feel for you when you're hearing things or in lessons, just wanting to connect to your personal experience these days? Is it hard sometimes? Does it feel effortful? Does it Are there some Sundays you go home feeling more depleted than just kind of, that checks and balances what it feels like for you overall to kind of be where you are?

Carol Lynn Pearson [00:59:53] Sure. Well, yes, I, I sometimes just sit and kind of shake my head. Not, not literally just thinking I wish that had not been said. Or I, that that's, that's not going to be helpful, or I just, I just don't believe that. I don't

Margi Dehlin [01:00:26] know.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:00:26] For example, in Relief Society,

Margi Dehlin [01:00:33] I like

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:00:34] to participate in the discussions and I have never said anything that would embarrass a teacher or make anybody feel less. When I have a comment to make, I raise my hand. I always sit on the front row, and when I'm called on, I stand up and I turn around. I'm the only one who stands up to make a, I hate it when people just mumble, mumble, mumble their little comments.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:01:05] So I, I stand up and I turn around and I see people looking. Oh, is she gonna say that? It's because sometimes I, I do bring really interesting thoughts. I, I, I never have brought something that is, that, that would cause someone to, to be really, really, really upset. Okay. So in the lessons that we often have about, you know, the nature of God, so we talk about what is God? Well, God is a glorified man and, you know, all of these, these masculine kinds of characteristics.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:01:38] So rather than, rather than wanting to stand up and say the closing prayer and pray to Heavenly Mother and see, I don't do that. I, I just don't. That's not something I want to hijack. I, I would raise my hand and say, sisters, again, it falls to me to remind us that we have been created in the image of God, who is male and female, and we are at this moment handicapped by our history, by our language.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:02:21] But I just feel to remind us all that we as women are created in the image of God, specifically the divine female image of God, just as much as a man is created in the male image of God.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:02:40] So those are the kinds of things that I'm very confident about saying in a discussion. Maybe in the hallway I might speak to somebody, make it, have a little bit stronger discussion about something. No, I'm never trying to reprimand anybody, but, you know, I, I, I sort of choose where I speak certain things and, and it's not a matter of being dishonest. It's just a matter of being resourceful.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:03:15] So I, I, I understand about sitting in church and thinking, I don't know. But, you know, very often I hear something Brilliant. And just two days ago, we had our. It was a, A man who, who spoke from the, the, the High Council, who gave a good talk on a number of things. That's an emotional talk. And I went up to him afterwards and I told him I really, really appreciated his comments and he had remembered me from some prior theme that I had forgotten he had had any interaction about.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:04:04] And so he said, I have your book such and such, and I really, really appreciate that. And, and after that, I saw that he had gone on my website and ordered the Ghost of Eternal Polygamy. So I'm just saying that I utilize the personal things that I feel responsible to help move things in a positive forward direction without feeling I gotta get out of here as fast as I can or condemning anybody who's, who's there. And I know this is a difficult dance to do.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:04:51] And I have, you know, I am comfortable right now in my place in the church because I have said out loud and in books or on the stage the major things that I feel I came here to contribute to this organization.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:05:12] And I know that those things have been received by thousands of people that have made them feel more comfortable in their own concept of God or their own throwing away of this ridiculous, awful thing of eternal polygamy. I'm comfortable that this is. That I'm doing what I was called to do here. And that's. That's all I can say about it.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:42] Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:43] Yeah, that makes sense.

Responding to Members Who Are Leaving the Church

John Dehlin [01:05:44] How does it make you feel to see so many people leaving the Mormon Church, you know, in 2022? Do you. Are you just sort of. It doesn't matter what church you belong to, so find your bliss in or out of the church, or are you sad or frustrated by the defections?

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:06:06] Okay. A lot of things that I see and say, I have to go back to the fact that I'm a libra. On the one hand, there's this. On the other hand, there's that. You know, we libra are. But do the scales.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:06:22] And so everything I've said so far on this program shows my libra ness, that on the one hand, I really do value the Mormon community and a great deal of the Mormon teachings. On the other hand, there's this and this and this and this.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:06:43] And as I'm able, I address this and this and this. And so the people who were dear to me that have left the church, it has not made one iota of difference in my respect for them or in my relationship with them.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:07:04] And so how do I feel when I Say, I know that. I think the institution right now has a lot of challenges going on, and hopefully maybe those who leave the church will learn from some of the challenges and address a lot of the things that people are waking up and, and, and, and seeing.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:07:26] So for someone who leaves, I, you know, I, I wish them well. And, and here, here's what I hope that someone who leaves the church can take with them some of the good things they have learned from this organization and its teachings and utilize it as they add new things that they feel more comfortable with in whatever journey they're going to be taking.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:07:56] I think it's kind of sad if somebody, you know, leaves the church kind of shaking the dust off their shoes as they do it, and, you know, sort of a condemnation of everybody ought to leave this church. This church is worth nothing.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:08:17] Those who create a new life for themselves can create a wonderful life. But those who feel that I'm giving up my pioneer heritage, I'm giving up so many things, it's a shame that those people have to give up all of that, because this organization should be able to manage to embrace those people who are so hurt by some of the specific and obvious things that are not correct that they feel to leave. So, you know, again, that's a kind of a complex answer, but that's my Libra answer for you.

John Dehlin [01:08:57] Love it. All right, one last question about this topic before we end by talking about your book. So we've got a Focus problem on our camera. There we go. Okay. Okay. So, Carolyn, one more question before we turn to, you know, ending by talking about your book, the Love Map.

John Dehlin [01:09:22] Once I was given audience to meet with Elder Jeffrey R. Holland by my brother, who was, you know, worked with Elder Holland. So I sat for days and weeks, probably months, trying to ask myself one question. What are some changes I could recommend to Elder Holland that would strengthen the church, not weaken it?

John Dehlin [01:09:47] And I literally was never able to come up with one. So, for an example, give women the priesthood. Well, that makes it look like the brethren were wrong by denying the priesthood all these years. And maybe it'll make it so men feel less empowered. I just thought, does the church get stronger if all of a sudden it announces, sorry, we were wrong? Women share the priesthood. No, it probably weakens it. All right, should they let gay people get married in the temple? No. Because then all the people who have died or who have suffered, who have left, would say, why did God change his mind?

John Dehlin [01:10:26] He changed his mind about polygamy, changed his mind about black people. Now he's changing his mind about LGBT people. After a while, people would just realize you prophets aren't talking to God. You're just caving to social pressure. So, okay, giving, you know, LGBTQ people full status in the church, that won't help. Okay. Come clean about all your history. Oh, no, wait a minute. If the church admits that they were hiding and lying about its history, and everybody learns the true history, they'll decide the church was a fraud and they'll leave it. And I just could never come up with any recommendation that I wanted that would actually strengthen and improve the church.

Recommendations for the Church and the Love Map Book

John Dehlin [01:11:05] So before we get to your book on love, I'm going to give you one quick chance. Do you have recommendations for the church that would actually strengthen and not weaken the church?

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:11:22] I think that I would say that. That a foundational. You see, you know, there are all of these specific things that we're talking about, and of course, you know, I'm. I'm tempted just say, well, first of all, you know, make. Make temple marriage equal for men and women. Not giving the man the opportunity to be sealed to more than one wife. I mean, that's an. To me, that's an obvious thing that. That ought to go. But I want to speak just. Just very generally to that. I would ask the Brethren to. To bring the concept of partnership

Margi Dehlin [01:12:12] into

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:12:13] their language, into their mental pondering, into their spiritual meditations, into their prayers, to really concentrate on the opportunities that the. The word partnership opens up. And I'm thinking specifically in partnership between men and women, because in. In the. The highest levels down to, well, there's more partnership down here in the very, very bottom. But in all of the layers of the church, if the Brethren modifying the structure of patriarchy into a structure of partnership, I think that would automatically change a lot of the things that down here, because of that one shift in consciousness, a lot of things down here would just automatically change.

John Dehlin [01:13:30] And, And.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:13:30] And. And I know that would be a very hard thing to do. And, you know, the Brethren continue to. You know, just a few weeks ago, we heard Brother Ballard say, we Brethren, we need to have, you know, more women on our ward committees for our. Our.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:13:50] However he phrased that invite involve the women more. And I thought, oh, again, we're having a little phrase like that thrown out when there needs to be rebuilding from the bottom up and from the top down of grasping the opportunity that the word partnership gives us, starting with this partnership between men and women that no decision is. You know, recently the Brethren have made it clear that Relief Society is not a Partnership with the priesthood. It's not. We don't even get to have, you know, the women's Saturday evening predictable session.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:14:39] I, if, if a major thing could be done on, of shifting the lens out of patriarchy into partnership to really dwell on that, pray on that, examine the entire operation of the church with that in mind. Not saying that women now have to do all the same things that men do.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:15:05] And I find myself wanting in a conversation like this to bring up the wonderful statement from British author Virginia Woolf, men and women are different. What needs to be made equal is the value placed on those differences. Women have so much more to offer the thinking of the organization that just the absolute independent strain of patriarchy will never get to. Will never get to.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:15:41] So it's not that I just want to leave it at that. If I had a wish, it is that the concept of partnership would begin to really become green and nourishing and growing, and that the leadership would recognize that partnership would be so much more appealing to everyone.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:16:18] That alone would cut off a lot of the people who are just leaving the church, but would bring in new thinking that would give just a more holy, a more whole, and therefore a more holy way to create this church organization.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:16:43] So I give you the word partnership as what I would give to the, to our church to let that be the watchword for moving forward in the future.

John Dehlin [01:16:58] I love it. Okay, well, my strategy for having these two or three hours with you that were so profound was, Was kind of a Trojan horse strategy to help my, Our current audience find you to be so thoughtful, so articulate and so brilliant that they would want to buy this book, the Love Map. And now I think you've made such a compelling case for your wisdom and intelligence and articulateness that people will feel compelled that they have to go buy this book. And in fact, I encourage everyone to check out the Love Map. And really quickly, Carolyn, what I want to do is end today's episode just having you talk for a bit on what is the Love Map? And what were you doing? What were you trying to do when you decided to write this book? And why should people buy it? What value will it add to their lives?

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:18:03] Sure, I just had the best time writing this little book, the Love Map and the subtitles, saving your love relationship and incidentally, saving the world. I know we don't have time to tell very much about this. It's a piece of fiction. But I also bill it as the truth because there is enormous truth in here.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:18:28] And see, I think my husband Gerald was The first New Ager in Utah. And I began to study so much of the interesting things that were coming from the East. You know, we were meditators. And I learned about the chakra system. And as I studied the chakra system, I. I thought, wow, that is so. Such a powerful.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:18:57] Map, really. And I read this, this wonderful book that indicated that, that the. Well, for those who don't know the chakra system, it's of course, the seven energy centers that, that, that we move up from the lower places in our experience up to the higher ones, up to the godly. Really.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:19:19] And when I read that civilization in general follows this same general map of movement, I thought, wow, that's really interesting. And then I thought, you know, a romantic relationship follows the same thing. Now, even relationships that are not romantic can follow the same thing. But the story in this is a young woman whose marriage is falling apart after three years, and she ascended Jerusalem by her boss at Google. She's a map maker. She wishes there were a map for love. Why isn't there a map for love? It's so random, so difficult. And anyway, she's involved in a bomb accident. And in her recovery, back in her.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:20:10] Her hotel, in the middle of the night, she has a vision. She experiences her higher self that tells her, joanna, you have come on a hero's journey. You want to know about love, how to find it, how to keep it. Here's you. You and I are going to go on a journey together. So the rest of the book is that. And Joanna learns that there are. And I didn't. I don't call them chakras. I call them the seven kingdoms. From the beat, from the first one of just survival up through the second one of emotion and sexuality and reproduction, to the third, which is power and will, all engaged in moving us even higher up into the next one, which is the heart.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:21:01] The abdomen is the one that represents power and will. The higher one is the one of the heart that Jesus and every great teacher in the history of the world has led us to. That is love. And Joanna learns that she is stuck in the third. Guess what?

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:21:18] Most of civilization is stuck in the third. Religions are stuck in the third often. And there she sees that her relationship is. She has been exerting power, will, instead of trying to move upward into love. And she has to go through this whole process of learning what that would look like, what it would feel like. And of course, all of us understand that, wow, am I personally stuck in the third, which is my wanting, my will over somebody else's. Will. Even the person that I love the most.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:21:59] How. How can I, how can I change that so that I'm operating out of love? Out of your good is my good. And so what would it. And Joanna is told us, she's told that she is going to save the world because she is the tipping point.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:22:17] And so what if we each one are the tipping point? That our success in moving from my will over your will is up into the heart, into the place where every great master has called us to operate out of love. So that's in general the journey that we take in the love map. And I think the story is quite delicious and I know that the concepts that we get to here are really powerful and, and, and that they're true. So that in a nutshell is what this little book is. And I, I just love it. I'm having some good responses from people who are saying, wow, that made everything so clear for me.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:23:04] There is, there is a map to love and to, to manage to stay here in the heart is the challenge for all of us. But getting. Being able to see it clearly is helpful.

John Dehlin [01:23:17] Love it.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:23:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:23:20] I was telling Margi there's a little bit of almost a Christmas Carol vibes because the visitor to Joanna reminded me a little bit of the Christmas carol experience. You know what I mean by that, Carolyn?

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:23:36] Sure, sure. And Joanna is shown her past, her, her present and her future if she is able to become a permanent resident of the heart, which, you know, all of us visit and we, we do things out of love all the time. But wow, to be permanently engaged in the heart is, is what we need to, to try to do. But you know, it has helped me just to be able to, to say, oh wow, I just slipped out of the fourth kingdom into the third kingdom. I slipped out of love. And I spoke in a way that was not I. It has helped me just to see that there is a kind of a geometrical movement that, that we, that we are on, in, in our journey.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:24:27] And you know a phrase that I like out of Mormondom is eternal progression. We kind of reserve that for the eternities. But our journey right here in mortality is part of our eternal progression. And this map that I call the kingdoms moving upward and out of selfishness and my will over yours and out of control, but having our impulses always come from love. Now, as you know, as we were speaking about our church organization, our friend Dan Wotherspoon asked me when he interviewed me about this book. So where do you think the church is on this journey.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:25:13] And he and I both agreed that, you know, that there is quite a lot of love happening here, but there seems to be a lot of Third Kingdom, third chakra, energy of power of my will over your will.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:25:34] You know, and I'm sad to read the articles from the Salt Lake Tribune about, you know, some of the experiences of, of BYU professors, BYU by Idaho by professor professors over whom such control is being held that they do not feel that they are being loved, they are being controlled. So institutions have to look at this, as do we in our personal relationships.

John Dehlin [01:26:14] Love it.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:15] Yeah, a few things. I was going to just add a few things that I really enjoyed about the book and I was going to mention I really loved a few of the things that you created in this book. Particularly I love that Sylvia, you know, helps is the one that kind of helps in the journeying of. It's Joanna, right? Joanna. I've had like a mind flip and so for a minute it kind of feels quite external because she's like taking her places and kind of. But I really love the tie in that Sylvia is kind of the wise mind within Joanna. I really loved, loved that.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:59] And then I also loved. I thought it was so personally impactful to me. Museum of Pain. I don't want to give too much away. I think talking about books it's kind of hard because I don't want to say too much to then where people feel like they've already read it or experienced it. But I would just say for people reading, for me personally, I found the Museum of Pain, which is part of, of the Third Kingdom.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:25] I believe within that kind of concept of where you're, you're meeting hurts pains in relationship to. In journeys and it becomes this. I just thought it was visually so impactful, so powerful. And then I really loved the concept of one with the sword.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:47] I just feel like there were some of those things. And then of course the question, right, of what would love do that kind of centering a centering question to kind of bring us back to ourselves and to what matters in moments. Those are a few of the things that are going to stay with me.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:28:08] Carolyn Good, I'm glad to know that. Yeah. And those images all stay with me, of course, because the images, I'm the one that grabbed that particular image, but I did because it's a true image. And this Museum of pain that you speak of, which is created out of the abdomen energy, the Third Kingdom, third chakra, an energy of my will over your will.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:28:37] We every one of us has a museum of resentments that we dust and we shine and we take care of this museum because we love knowing that we were right and somebody was wrong. And so this is our museum of pain.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:28:59] And that without telling too much of the story, of course, Joanna has to get out of that so that she can truly move up into the heart. And she's given a little glimpse of seeing civilization, seeing her husband through the eyes of God.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:29:19] And thank you for really appreciating the book. I'm glad that you did. And honestly, I don't think anybody would feel they've been cheated by spending the time with. It's a short book, but it is very, very powerful. And I know that this is true. I know that it is. And so it is. Amen. And amen.

Closing Reflections on Love and the Christmas Season

John Dehlin [01:29:49] All right. Well, Carolyn, you've been so generous with your time. The book is the love map, saving your love relationship and, incidentally, saving the world. You. You can go to CarolynPierson.com and purchase it there. And if you do, she'll get all the money and she'll sign it for you, or you can get it on Amazon or wherever books are sold, I guess.

John Dehlin [01:30:13] There's so many other books and references you'll find in the show notes. Most importantly, Carolyn, we just want you to know there's this concept of standing on the shoulders of giants. And there would be no Mormon Stories podcast without Carolyn Pearson.

John Dehlin [01:30:29] There might not be no Margi and John Dehlin without Carolyn Pearson. So we just want you to know we respect you, we admire you, we adore you. We stop short of worshiping you. But it's a little close. So thank you for giving us your time, for giving us, you, your heart, your soul, and all the books and the art and the wisdom and the activism that you've given us over the several decades. Most of my listeners will never know.

John Dehlin [01:30:59] Most of our listeners will never know the true extent to which you have blessed their lives. And so we wanted to make sure we said that publicly.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:31:09] Oh, John, I appreciate that so much. I really do. And I honor the both of you. I love the both of you. I really do. I love who you are and what you are creating. And, John, it just occurs to me to say one more thing before we conclude. Here we are in the Christmas season, and even, you know, to everybody in the. In the listening audience, let's give Jesus another chance, too.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:31:37] You don't have to think about Jesus the way that you were taught when you were little. You don't have to even worry about, you know, the things about the story of Jesus that you have discarded. But let us maintain the great good and the teachings that Jesus came to give us so that at this Christmas time and always our friend, our brother Jesus, can be just part of our lives in a very profound way and in a way that does not mean that we have to be particular member of a particular church. If for people who have walked away from this or every church, you don't need to walk away from Jesus.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:32:22] He's the best we've got and along with plenty of other people who are teaching the same principles. But Jesus brought us love in a way that can really resonate with us. So happy Christmas to everybody and thank you again, John and Margi, for being my friends and the friends to so many people.

John Dehlin [01:32:42] All right, we love you, Carolyn. Thanks so much. Come back again soon and stay healthy and stay well.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:32:51] I will. Thank you. All right, many blessings to you.

John Dehlin [01:32:56] Well, we love you, Carolyn. Ghost, Eternal polygamy. Goodbye. I love you. Circling the wagons, rediscovering. What is it? The Mother Finding Mother God, and of course, the book of the hour, the Love Map. Check out all these books and more. You won't ever be disappointed by a Carolyn Pearson book. What's the book you love by Carolyn Pearson again?

Margi Dehlin [01:33:20] It's. What is it? Love in Loving.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:33:23] What is it? A book of love poems. It started out being I Can't Stop Smiling, and then it had a new title.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:31] I think it's In Love

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:33:33] and Love Again and Always. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:33:35] Okay.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:33:35] It's just beautiful love poems.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:37] It is. They are.

John Dehlin [01:33:38] All right, we'll include that on the show Notes.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:33:41] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:33:42] All right, Carolyn, thanks so much. We love you.

Carol Lynn Pearson [01:33:44] I appreciate you.

John Dehlin [01:33:44] And Margi, thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:46] My pleasure, John.

John Dehlin [01:33:47] All right, happy holidays. Be kind to each other, be good to each other, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Bye, everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.