Episode Transcript
Host: John Dehlin · Co-host: Margi Dehlin · Guest: Holly Ashton Wallin
This transcript is machine-generated and lightly edited for readability. The audio is authoritative. Please excuse occasional errors in names and spelling.
Welcome to Thrive Stories and Today's Guest
Margi Dehlin [00:00:02] Hello and welcome to another episode of Thrive Stories. I'm your host, Margi Delin. So happy to be here with you. Grab a cup of coffee or if you're listening, head out for a walk. Let's cozy up and enjoy another story of thriving. And it's a special one for me in particular today. But before we dive in, let's mosey on over to John. Hey, John, how are you over there?
John Dehlin [00:00:25] Hi, everyone. Hi, Margi. Hi. This is fun.
Margi Dehlin [00:00:28] How are you?
John Dehlin [00:00:29] It's so lovely to have you be hosting Mormon Stories today and it's nice to be your partner in life.
Margi Dehlin [00:00:37] Yeah. How are you feeling about the interview today?
John Dehlin [00:00:39] Oh, my gosh, I'm so excited because we get to interview a dear friend and someone that we love and respect and admire.
Margi Dehlin [00:00:48] Yeah, it's going to be a fun one.
John Dehlin [00:00:49] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:00:50] It'll be like a gift from us to you because we love you.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:00:54] Yeah, yeah, yeah. But before we.
Margi Dehlin [00:00:58] So before I go in, maybe I'll say just a quick bit about Thrive Stories. Sound good?
John Dehlin [00:01:02] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:01:03] Should I go ahead and do that?
John Dehlin [00:01:04] Let's do it.
Margi Dehlin [00:01:04] So Thrive Stories, the idea, it's a bit of a. A shorter interview so far, more around two hours, I would say. And the idea is just to highlight an area after kind of a faith transition that you feel like you are thriving in. And there are lots of areas you can choose from. It. It can be anywhere from parenting to marriage to. What would you say, mental health, Finding community, sexuality.
John Dehlin [00:01:32] Community, spirituality.
Margi Dehlin [00:01:35] Yeah, yeah. Lots of areas to choose from. You can nominate yourself. You can nominate someone.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:01:40] You know.
Margi Dehlin [00:01:41] If you're interested in participating, you can click on the link at the bottom of this interview.
John Dehlin [00:01:47] Yes, absolutely.
Margi Dehlin [00:01:49] Beautiful.
John Dehlin [00:01:50] Yeah. And then you can come on and. And help others learn ways to heal and grow after being in a high demand religion.
Margi Dehlin [00:02:00] Exactly. Yeah, exactly.
John Dehlin [00:02:02] And you get to meet Margi and hang out with Margi. Who doesn't want to hang out with Margi?
Margi Dehlin [00:02:09] Okay, so to begin today, we're going to welcome our guest who is someone very special to me, a kind of a soul human, one of my dearest loves. And that is Holly Ashton Wallen. Can we welcome her?
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:02:23] Hi. I'm so excited to be here today. Thank you. I love you. Love you. This is special for me.
Margi Dehlin [00:02:31] Thank you. We are grateful you are here. So we know you. Maybe if you don't mind, is there a little way to introduce yourself? You could talk about anything really, but where you live, who you love and what you love as just kind of a. A brief introduction to you.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:02:51] Perfect. I Am actually originally from Utah. Sandy, Utah. Have been away from Utah for the past maybe 15 years, all over the west. Ended up in Sacramento. So I've been there for about three years, or, excuse me, about ten years. I've got three children. Single mom. My children are my loves, my challenges, and my greatest teachers. I am just trying to rebuild my life and rediscover some things about my life. And I'm super glad to be here.
Margi Dehlin [00:03:27] We're excited. We're excited to just kind of dive in here. So the title of the interview is the Fire within. And you selected, like, how would you describe the areas that you selected or area of thriving right now?
Holly Defines Passion and the Fire Within
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:03:44] So this was a hard one for me, but I just kept coming back to this. This idea of passion and what that has meant to me at different times in my life and how that relates to this fire within, this, like, desire, this burning sort of just like wanting to do something with your life. And I've just had that ever since I was a young girl. It's kind of changed at different times in my life, the way that I've. I've understood passion and. And how that showed up for me. So I'll share a little bit about passion today and. And my own rebuilding and. And how that's. How that. What that looks like for me.
Margi Dehlin [00:04:22] Yeah, that sounds great. When. So when we're talking about passion or fire for you right now, let's say if we were going to kind of take a snapshot of what that means to you, what it means to. When we're talking about that, just so everyone kind of have a sense of what we're talking about. What does it mean to you to have a life of passion or to have. Have that sense of the fire within that you can feel connected to.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:04:51] I love that. I think it's just having, like, a willingness to. To do things beyond your comfort, to. To overcome fear and to. To work through fear and. And to just do things that are hard and to fight for the things you believe in, the people you believe in, the ideas you believe in. To just live with that sort of sense of, like, desire and passion and just like to get out into the world and shine. Shine your light.
Margi Dehlin [00:05:20] Yes, that makes sense. And I so feel that from you. So this is so. This is so perfect. I think. So let's explore a little. So maybe take us. I would. I'm going to just love this.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:05:35] But if we.
Margi Dehlin [00:05:36] If we kind of go back a little bit to Holly, the girl, and we kind of think about this idea of you as a girl with. In relationship to passion and to maybe having this sense of fire. Did you as a girl, and if so, like, what did it look like? How did it show itself in your life?
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:05:58] Yeah, I feel like as a young girl, I, I had a really simple life. I came from a loving home. My parents had kind of a special kind of love and I was the oldest of five kids, so we did a lot as a family. Our family was big on extended family and, you know, loyalty to family.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:06:24] My parents were just really salt of the earth, great, great people and, and my life was simple. I, I loved to write. I remember writing poetry about Jesus. I remember writing a poem about my family. I remember writing about nature.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:06:42] I was really passionate about that. I was like journal writing all the time. And now I look back and it was so dramatic in my journal writing. But I love to write. I loved to dance, and I didn't have fears back then. I didn't really care what people thought. I would gather my siblings together, my sisters, and we'd like choreograph a dance routine to Whitney Houston or some of those fun songs, and we'd gather the neighbors and I wasn't afraid to do. Do that. I, I loved, I loved dancing and I loved life and I wanted the people I loved to love the things I loved. So I kind of.
John Dehlin [00:07:19] What were your go to Whitney Houston songs?
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:07:21] Oh, I want to dance with somebody.
John Dehlin [00:07:23] Yeah.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:07:23] My all time favorite. Yeah, that's my go to.
John Dehlin [00:07:27] I like to save it all. My love for you. But that's kind of a slow jam.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:07:30] Good one.
John Dehlin [00:07:30] Yeah.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:07:31] And I will always love you. I mean, that's a classic, right? Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:07:34] What about the greatest, Greatest level of all?
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:07:36] That's a good one. Oh, and I like the message in that one. Yes.
John Dehlin [00:07:39] I believe the children are huge. Sorry, Sorry.
Margi Dehlin [00:07:43] Should just.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:07:43] We should just. Whitney, reminisce.
Margi Dehlin [00:07:45] We can.
John Dehlin [00:07:46] Life is about 80s pop. I mean, right? Life, 80s rock and pop. I mean, what else is there? Anyway? Sorry. I just derailed.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:07:53] That was the most profound thing that will have been said on this podcast, is that 80s music is.
John Dehlin [00:07:59] It's.
Margi Dehlin [00:08:00] It's easy to feel the fire within.
John Dehlin [00:08:03] Yes.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:08:04] You got journey going. I mean, come on. So I was a lover of all these things. I, I was a fighter too. I was kind of bossy. I, I went after what I wanted. I was not really afraid to share my ideas and to, to put together little routines and things with my siblings and, And I, I babysat kids and I was like always choreographing little routines with the kids I babysat and then I'd have them do a performance and I'm sure they all thought I was annoying, but it was. It's just what I did. And I loved it. So I was really passionate in that way.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:08:40] I. I loved nature. Many of my memories from growing up just revolve around settings. Being in my grandmother's backyard, lying on her trampoline, being in my parents yard under the cherry tree, writing a sprinkler, running through the sprinklers, and just being carefree. My life really was pretty simple and careful. Carefree in that way. And. And it had a slowness about it that I don't think I recognized then, but I discovered later in life the beauty of that slowness of my upbringing. So.
Margi Dehlin [00:09:20] Yeah. Being kind of outside time.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:09:23] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:09:23] Just having moments of being. Is that what you mean?
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:09:26] Yes. Just moments of being.
Margi Dehlin [00:09:27] Yes. Oh, that's beautiful. Yeah, I noticed. So in the synopsis, I remembered you describing being a lover, fighter and dreamer. Do you remember what your dreams were when you were a girl or what you would dream about?
Early Dreams, Writing, and a Sense of Self
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:09:43] Yeah, I mean, I. I dreamt about writing. I dreamt about writing. And so I wrote, I did wrote when I was young. I didn't need anybody to tell me I was a writer. I just did it.
Margi Dehlin [00:09:54] Yeah.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:09:54] Dreamt about that. I dreamt about. I dreamt about love. Like I was a total romantic at heart. I dreamt about love. I would listen to my Chicago journey and I would dream about. I would dream about love. I just kind of had that, had that in me. Yeah, I loved. I loved life. I, I think I was, I was a fighter in that. I, you know, I liked. I fought my parents a little bit. I was, I was old, the oldest and bossiest. And I just kind of had this fight in me and, and, but also this kind of soft, loving side to me. And I was a dreamer. I was a dreamer. I love that.
Margi Dehlin [00:10:37] So what if we were going to kind of follow that through as you grew up and kind of. Maybe if we were going to head into adolescence. Right. So a little more social programming, probably. Right. Family programming, school. Like if we were going to kind of get a snapshot of fire within passion, then. And, and it probably does change for all of us. Right. As we're socialized, as we're conditioned to show up.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:11:10] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:11:11] A little bit more to get our basic needs met, did it change? And if so, kind of. How. For adolescents, so maybe high school.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:11:22] Yeah. I would say those were the years when I. I did start questioning myself more I was the girl who tried out for all the things. I never stopped trying. I tried out for all the things, but I didn't make them. I would, like, get close and I didn't. And. But I, I just kept trying. I just kept fighting and, and didn't give up. But I started to buy into some of the stories that we all buy into, you know, like, I'm not enough, you know, and, and I bought into that and I think that's when my, my young girl confidence started to shift into some insecurity and some questioning.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:12:01] But I also, I had a lot of friends. People were drawn to me. I had a lot of friends always, and I had a great time with my friends and I really wanted to be dating. I wasn't dating a lot in high school and I had. I had a crush, crush on this guy named Kelly. And everyone knew about it, but I loved my high school years. I think I, I think I had a confidence, but I also started to develop some messaging that, that start that, that. That had me feeling some insecurity. So that was a, that was like a, A good time in my life and happy time in my life and also a time where I started questioning myself a little bit and, you know, maybe buying into some of the things that were taught.
Margi Dehlin [00:12:48] So in looking at kind of the fire, was the fire still kind of raging then, or are you feeling like it's kind of up and down kind of mixing with. Sometimes I feel like I still was.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:12:58] I still had. Had that kind of fire within me. I feel like I was, I was adventurous and, and I loved doing things with my friends. We would do silly, like, rebellious things. So I think I had that kind of still fire within me still. Yeah, definitely.
Messages of Not Being Enough Growing Up
John Dehlin [00:13:12] Are you, are you comfortable sharing some of the teachings or messages, explicit or implicit, that you feel may have been. May have started causing some of your doubt or uncertainty or devaluing of yourself? Do. Does anything come.
Margi Dehlin [00:13:30] If it could have been cultural, familial or religious?
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:13:34] And I think it was a combination. I think all of these, these issues are a combination of all of those things. They come to us through religion. They come to us through, you know, the culture, sometimes through family. Sometimes we hurt each other. But I think for me, the one that, that probably stands out to me the most is just this idea of, of not being enough.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:13:57] And I also think, like, there was an unlearning of trusting myself. There was a. Like, you don't, you don't know, but we know the answers. And so I stopped sort of trusting My own self and started listening to people that I respected. People in the church, people in my family. You know, I have wonderful aunts and uncles. I had wonderful church leaders. But I really started to listen to them. And I started to listen. Listening not just to them, but to the messages that they were giving. You know, in.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:14:29] In church and stuff. I started listening to those things and. Yeah, so I think the not enough one and that. And that just listening to other voices above my own would be the two that stand out the most.
Margi Dehlin [00:14:40] That shift from kind of internal.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:14:42] Yes.
Margi Dehlin [00:14:42] To the external.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:14:43] Yes.
Margi Dehlin [00:14:44] Really trusting, kind of moving away from yourself. Yeah, that's the. Yeah.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:14:48] And I was taught to like, it was important in my home to respect people. Respect was always something that was instilled within me. And so I respected other people's opinions and ideas and messages.
Margi Dehlin [00:15:02] Yeah, that makes sense. Are there any particular moments that stand out to you? Either way, it can be a burning moment, like a fire within moment that you remember as a girl or kind of growing up or a time when you kind of remember a little more of it. A fade or an insecurity or a moment of doubting yourself or. Does anything come to mind that way that you feel like you want to share?
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:15:30] I mean, I think it's just a compilation of ideas that come to mind. Yeah, I think just my life in general felt like I was. I was always living kind of from a state of passion when I was young. And I always kind of felt that, like, burning. It wasn't something that I experienced, like here and there. It was just like it was in me. It was like part of who I was. And I think as I started to get a little older, that fire just started. Started dying a little bit. But then I took it into my mission and I just did something different with it. And so we can get there when you get there.
John Dehlin [00:16:07] But were there. Were there like inclinations you had for like education you wanted to pursue or jobs you wanted to pursue or roles that you might want to fit into that weren't normative, that you had to kind of silence or beat back or not?
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:16:25] Not so much in my younger years. Yeah, not so much. I mean, I. I was passionate about work. I loved to work and I was taught to work. And so, yeah, I think, I think. I think working was. Was really important to me. I knew. I kind of always knew I wanted to work. I knew I wanted to be a mom. But I like, wanted to work. I love to work. I liked the idea of having that kind of independence and. Yeah, yeah, Was that kind of answering your question?
John Dehlin [00:16:56] No, but. Yeah, I guess. I guess when. When you start getting. And. And let's just. I don't know if this is part of your theme, and I don't want to interject it, but like, there is a common theme that within a high demand religion, oftentimes the woman has a certain role, there are certain expectations of a woman, ways that women are expected to present, ways that women are expected to behave, paths that women are supposed to follow, and some. And. And. Or just ideas you have or things you want to pursue that may not fit within the box of what maybe a high demand religion is kind of prescribing for you.
John Dehlin [00:17:34] And so I'm just wondering if you. If there were moments, if there are inclinations you had that you had to kind of beat down or goals or aspirations for yourself that didn't quite fit in the box that kind of your culture had for you, or was it more just not as explicit, but just kind of a diminishment of your listening to your own voice and more. More of a less explicit way because
Margi Dehlin [00:18:01] it also could have been a good fit for your personality or your desires at the time. That. That is something that I think we see.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:18:09] Yeah, Yeah. I mean, I think as far as like, messaging from society and the church in general, I knew from the beginning that I was like, sexual by nature. I had feelings when I was young. I felt that sort of passion and fire in that way too. As I got to be older, I do think messages about sexuality definitely had an impact on me. I felt confusion.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:18:34] I felt like I was having to suppress some of my. My desires. But also I was like kind of a late bloomer. I didn't really, like, start dating until I was a little bit older, so. But I kind of always had these ideas of.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:18:50] Of like, women's sexuality. Feeling. Feeling confusing and. And me knowing that I was. That by nature. I was like a sensual, sexual person by nature. But then feeling like there were all these rules around that, and even though I wasn't dating, it. It just. It felt confusing to have all this messaging and yet these internal feelings and knowing what to do with that. And I didn't really know what to do with that.
Margi Dehlin [00:19:14] Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense.
John Dehlin [00:19:18] Okay.
Margi Dehlin [00:19:19] Yeah. Would you say that it kind of still lived in you or you disconnected from sexual or sensual feelings then?
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:19:25] I think that shift happened after I got married.
Margi Dehlin [00:19:28] After you got married?
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:19:29] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think so.
Margi Dehlin [00:19:32] So what I'm hearing is kind of. You had a span of time in your life where it sounds like you had a good deal of space to develop that and nurture that passion in fire. Yeah. Is that how you kind of feel?
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:19:47] Yeah, I do.
Margi Dehlin [00:19:48] Yeah. Yes. Okay. So then moving maybe a little bit more into young adulthood, you kind of mentioned your, Your mission. And so you were saying kind of that passion and that fire maybe changed a little, changed direction. How so?
Marriage, Mission, and Living by the Formula
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:20:05] And I was not somebody that thought I would go on a mission. I got out of high school, I went to college, got my associates work, was working all of that time. And then when I finished my associates, I just kind of had an idea, maybe I'll. I think that that was like the fire, like me wanting to do what am I going to do next? What am I going to do next in my life. That was kind of that fire within is like, what are you going to do next? And I had the idea to serve a mission.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:20:30] I remember telling my parents and my dad, I think, was really happy about that. You know, he had four daughters and he was a missionary and loved his mission and had a strong testimony. And so that was something, in a way, I felt really connected to my dad, to my family. I think they were so supportive of me going on a mission. I had uncles offer to help pay.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:20:52] So I felt like this was kind of that next fire, that, that and not something I'd really ever wanted to do. But so I went on a mission and I realized soon into my mission that this was hard. And I, the. The idea of coming home never really dawned on me, but it was hard. It was hard work.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:21:13] I had. I felt like a lot of guilt on my mission for, like, in hindsight, really silly things, but. But I also loved being like a representative of something I loved. I just loved that sort of idea of like, I am part of something bigger and I represent something bigger than me. And, and I took that kind of with me into the mission field and, And I loved. I took that lover in me. And I really loved the people. I. I really grew to love the people. Um, I wrote letters on my mission on my. That was back when we wrote. We didn't email. And I wrote a lot of letters to my family, long about my experiences, about the hard, hard parts, about the beautiful parts.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:21:59] So I did kind of get to like, do some of those things that I loved during my mission, but it was also a confusing time for me and a hard time for me, but I made the most of it and, and I'm really grateful that I, I had that experience.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:22:14] I really think that is also where I developed a testimony of the church. I grew up it being more about family and sports and simple things. And then, and then the, the mission for me was really where I,
Margi Dehlin [00:22:29] the
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:22:29] fight that fire within was me wanting to know the gospel. It was me becoming passionate about the gospel and learning and sharing it with other people.
Margi Dehlin [00:22:38] Yeah, Yep.
John Dehlin [00:22:40] And it's worth noting just from a historical perspective that this was during a time where most Mormon young women didn't serve missions.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:22:48] Right.
John Dehlin [00:22:49] And oftentimes there was a cultural perception that when a Mormon young woman chose to serve a mission, maybe it was because they had gone to BYU and couldn't get married and it was like a way to do something maybe to have a last ditch effort to find a husband before quote, you're quote too old. I mean this is all awful stuff.
Margi Dehlin [00:23:10] Right.
John Dehlin [00:23:10] But nowadays young, young women, there's more Mormon young women missionaries than young men. But back then it would have been a real exception for you. It would have been a real sign of commitment and devotion to the gospel.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:23:23] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:23:24] For you to make that choice, I think.
Margi Dehlin [00:23:26] Yeah.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:23:26] I mean I wasn't like devastated that I wasn't married at that time. My college years is when I really started dating and, and, and, but I wasn't like, I wasn't, I, I didn't decide to go on a mission because I wasn't married. I like wanted to do it. I wanted to learn about the gospel, I wanted to grow, I wanted to do something different with my life. And it just felt like, felt like the right thing to do, the next thing to do for me. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:23:55] So that that passion engine is still really going strong at this stage. So at what point does that change? At what point do you, does that sort of fire. Right. Kind of that you notice like retrospectively thinking. But you know, what are the elements that you kind of pinpoint now as kind of creating this change where you couldn't really access it or you feel like it changed for you. Where are we and kind of what are the factors?
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:24:31] Yeah, I mean I think that when I got home from my mission, I, for the first time in my life I felt like I was like being seen. I had, I felt like I was like well respected and seen for what I had done and people that had not paid attention to me before my mission were now paying attention to me and it felt good. It felt good to feel like I was home for my mission and starting to be seen a little. And, and so I think I had this idea that my, my testimony, my, like my Mormonism was such a Big part of me being seen.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:25:06] So I really went kind of full in on the church and became very passionate about. About the church and. And that was a big, big part of my adult life. I also got married during this time, and my husband, Kelly, at the time, he was kind of this guy I had a crush on in high school, and he finally gave me the attention I want. He finally saw me. He finally saw me.
Margi Dehlin [00:25:33] Yeah.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:25:34] And that felt good. It felt good to. To finally be, like, chosen to be. To be seen. And I felt that. I felt that when I got for my mission. I felt it by the person that chose me to marry him. I felt like I was, like, seen. And that felt really good.
Margi Dehlin [00:25:48] Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. So you're kind of on your way. So you've. You're now married and give us a little kind of slice of life life of all in and what that looks like and, you know, where the. Where the turn or if it's kind of slow, kind of over years, but what that change looks like. So life then looked like being all in. Looked like what for you?
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:26:16] Yeah. So when I got married, I was. I was all in on the church. I was working and really loved what I was doing, Kelly. And I wanted to start traveling, and I had not traveled much as a child other than camping, so I was like, well, maybe I can get my foot in the door with travel. So I threw some different paths, actually, through a connection for my mission, I ended up getting a job in the travel industry. And. And that was awesome. And then for the next 20 years, I. I worked really hard, and I loved my job. I was raising or I was having children at this time. My. Okay, good, good, good. I was having children at this time, so I was married.
Margi Dehlin [00:27:00] And let me.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:27:01] Let me go back a little bit. So got married, got my foot in the travel industry, felt a lot of passion about that. I didn't have this, like, burning desire to have kids. In fact, I kind of wanted to, like, push against this idea that you're supposed to get married and have them.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:27:16] And so I didn't have kids for a while. Kelly and I waited for five years before we started having kids. And. And he was going through all of his schooling. When we got married, my intent was to go back to school, but that didn't happen. His schooling became kind of the thing. He was in his undergrad and then actually ended up going to law school for a little bit of time, then left law school, and several years later went to medical school. And then, you know, that comes with a Lot of years of training. So that kind of became my life, was kind of following Kelly around, you know, supporting his career, but still working all during this time and having children during this time, really, really staying involved in the church during this time.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:28:01] So my passion became. Became about my family, became about my work, and became about the church. That's what I was passionate about. And also during all of this rebuilding, which was beautiful, I mean, Kelly and I were building this life together, and I was. I was proud of the life that we were building, but also, there was a lot of pain, and there was. Marriage was hard from the beginning. You know, I think both of us came into it a little blinded. We didn't know really what compatibility was. You know, we both came into it with some messaging around sexuality that played a part in some struggles in our marriage.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:28:38] And. And we. We overcame a lot of. A lot of things in our marriage that were really, really hard, but we also were growing apart. Kelly's faith, he. He kind of started losing his faith when he was in medical school and.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:28:55] And what, on occasion, come to me, and I was just so all in. I wanted my kids raised in the church the kids were in, I was in, so I wouldn't really hear much of what he had to say. And so I think he learned to kind of keep some things from me. And over time, we just. We drifted apart. I went all in on the church. I thought if I did it, he'd come back, and, you know, his beliefs were shifting in another way, and we just started to slowly, slowly grow apart. And I knew it. I knew it. I knew that we were missing some things in our marriage.
Margi Dehlin [00:29:29] That.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:29:29] That, like, for.
Margi Dehlin [00:29:30] Fire.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:29:30] We were missing that fire. That's what we were missing.
Margi Dehlin [00:29:34] But.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:29:35] But we loved each other, and we were working hard, and. And we had three beautiful children, and. And there was. I'll save that story till later. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:29:46] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:29:48] As you're. As you're starting to grow apart, and we see this a lot, and also this dynamic of you becoming more faithful because he's becoming less faithful, and that just drives a wedge oftentimes. But as you're. As you're growing apart, it sounds like you kind of. You said you knew this on some level, but if you. If you had. Referring to a theme earlier, if you would learn to kind of ignore your voice, then your voice will be saying, hey, things aren't totally right in your marriage, but by that point, you're not paying attention to that, and instead you're paying attention to maybe messages the church had taught you about what's going to lead to the most successful marriage?
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:30:34] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:30:35] What, what. What would you have been putting your faith in? What types of messages would you have been putting your faith in at the expense of listening to your own voice?
Margi Dehlin [00:30:44] That's a great question.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:30:45] Well, that takes me to the scripture that I chose for my mission. And this scripture to me is important because it is kind of the way I lived my life from that point on. But it's the scripture from Proverbs. Trust in the Lord with all your heart, lean not into your own understanding. That was my mission scripture. That's what I did. I put my trust in everyone else in my life. And that, that, that voice, that, that internal fire, whatever you want to call it, that, that over time became more and more and more suppressed because I trusted. Instead of really listening to my heart, I listened to.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:31:24] Listened to other voices. I, I also was a pleaser. And I, you know, I was respected for my. For, for my goodness. I was respected for the good that I did, the good part of Holly. And so following the.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:31:43] The commandments of the church, like, helped me be that girl. And, And I liked being respected. I liked being seen, I liked being noticed. And it seems like if I followed that plan and I did really well at it, that, that I would. That I would kind of be seen and recognized.
Margi Dehlin [00:32:00] And.
John Dehlin [00:32:02] Yeah, so the, and this is just really important. So I. Thanks for letting me jump in a bit. So just quickly. We don't tease out enough this idea you had, that quote about trusting God. And there are. There are some people that leave Mormonism and retain their belief in God and their connection to God. I was having breakfast with my mom this morning. She's like, I believe in God, you know, and I always have. What did listening to God mean at the time for you? Because sometimes when you're really orthodox Mormon, listening to God actually means not necessarily listening to God, but all the conditioning that has been associated with what God wants.
Margi Dehlin [00:32:43] It's like listening to your leaders, listening to what they want for you, listening to the path, the structure and the formula. Right.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:32:50] Yes. I would say it was more about me trusting in leaders, me trusting in. I was the person that watched General Conference and I got all the tears and all the feelings from all the talks, and I trusted those people. I trusted that they knew what was best for me.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:33:07] And, and some of that was true. Some of what they taught was beautiful and true and really good for me. But not all of it was, we can't all follow the same script. We can't all follow the same plan. Like what works for one does not work for all. So yeah, I think, I think for listening to God it was to me trusting in leaders. But with that, I will say I always felt like. Like I had, I had.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:33:37] There was something in my nature that, that felt separate from the church, that, that felt like, like my. I wouldn't have called it my soul or even my, like, I don't know, something in me felt very connected to this idea of God or whatever. And, and I always had that like in me always felt that even though I trusted in all the leaders, I always felt there was like this conflict between this like this like spiritual part of me and this like trusting in other people, if that makes sense.
John Dehlin [00:34:10] So there's Holly, there's God or the divine, and then there's church leaders. And how do you, you know, tease out those different voices?
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:34:18] Right, yeah. And I also was influenced by other people. So I listened to friends and I. I had really great friends. I have to say. I had great friends when I was young, but I was influenced by people. I was influenced by my parents, by my aunts and uncles, by my friends. So I had all these voices kind of coming at me, you know, the leaders, the friends, you know, the, the spirit, me, like all these conflicting voices kind of going on. And it felt like a lot for my head. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:34:47] I had this thought because I'm thinking back to the girl Holly who. Where you were saying you were kind of romantic and would dream about like romantic scenarios and now and, and there's a cultural narrative around what love looks like. It's short lived. Like if you look at movies or stories, it's kind of, you know, it looks a certain way basically up to the point that you're with the person.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:35:11] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:35:12] After that we don't really have narratives about that that are kind of real and true and you know that we can. So. And then you kind of have the religious narrative around that. Right. Of what love looks like. And I feel like there's not a lot of differentiation in that narrative. It's sort of like to me, the. And I'm curious if this is similar for you, but love's like being the same. It's like believing the same things. Wanting the same things.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:35:40] Yes.
Margi Dehlin [00:35:41] Like a lot of sameness as it's very non threatening. So what did it feel like to have that sense all of a sudden that you and Kelly were not the same and what did it do to your sense of your kind of marriage at that point and what did it
When the Church Life Started to Unravel
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:35:58] mean, you know, I love that. I think that for me, it was like, well, this is not what I signed up for. I signed up for, like, a priesthood leader that was going to, you know, I don't want to say carry the home because I wasn't really big on the whole idea of, like.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:36:17] Like, patriarchy. Kind of always bothered me. Like, I kind of always knew that that's not how it was. And it. And my dad was a really good example of, like, not being that way. So. But. But I think that I. What happened is I felt like Kelly and I should be growing together. We should be enjoying the same things. We should be. My. If anything, like, our belief system should align like that, of all the things should align, and when that doesn't align, and that's a huge part of who I am now. That is part of my identity. That then, like, who are we without that, you know?
Margi Dehlin [00:36:52] Right.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:36:53] And we. We had, like, we love to travel together. We had a lot of fun together. We would, like. We love to work together, but, like, the way that we kind of saw the world, it just was drifting. And I knew it. And that's scary.
John Dehlin [00:37:08] Scary was his view becoming more secular and yours becoming more pious?
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:37:15] I don't think I really knew what his view was at the time.
John Dehlin [00:37:17] Just because he didn't feel comfortable.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:37:19] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:37:20] Confiding in you. Yeah. Because you were becoming more orthodox religious and he was afraid if he was open with you, he might be rejected.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:37:30] Yes. And. And there were a few times where he was open to me. And I remember one time him coming to me and saying, holly, do you really, truly believe that there's a Muslim woman across the world that believes as deeply in what she believes in as you do, and you really think you're more right than she is? And, like, I remember him. Him saying things on occasion that would make me think, but then I would just find a way of, like. Also, the church felt super safe to me. It felt like a really safe way to raise my kids. And in this. In this world.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:38:07] And I wanted to have, like, a guide, a map to help me do this thing. I. I didn't know how to do it on my own, and the church felt safe to me. And I think Kelly had a little less fear around that. I think he was like, we would be fine without. But he also wasn't, like, asking me to leave. He was. He was going and, you know, kind of like pretending and. And going along with it, even though he wasn't really believing. But he was also supportive. He Was supportive of the things I wanted to do and my callings. And so it was, it was. It was kind of crazy. Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:38:39] And when he would ask you that question about the Muslim woman, did you respond in a shaming way? I think you were going to say,
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:38:45] I probably was defensive. I. Yeah, I don't know that I was shaming. I probably. And honestly, I don't remember exactly how I responded. I know that, that, that question, like, it stayed with me, like, for many years. It stayed with me. I was like, yeah, like, that's pretty stupid to think that. But. But la, la, la. You know, so. Yeah, but.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:39:10] And in hindsight, you know, I feel like my heart was in the right place. I feel like I, I loved Kelly. I was willing to fight for our marriage. I. I was the fighter still. I loved the life we were building. We have three beautiful children. Like, I, I wanted. I wanted us to, like, come together on this. I wanted us to.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:39:37] I wanted him to come back. I just, it would just make so much. It would just make life easier if we would just come back and we could just do this together. And the irony is my, My, like, doing a lot of that time alone in the church is actually strengthening for me. And I had to, like, really. You know, I can say that in hindsight. Like, I think a lot of that time when I was the one getting the kids up, the one doing the callings, the one, like, I think it was hard and I had some resentment about that for sure. But it also is what, what strengthened me and what kind of built me.
Margi Dehlin [00:40:14] Yeah. During that time. It's so interesting to look at that. Oh, like paradigm or the rhythm between. What oftentimes happens is someone leaves or is kind of questioning within a marriage and then the other. Because it makes so much sense. Because as that person differentiates, of course, the other person is like, safety, safety, like danger, danger. Things are happening to double down. Right. So where do you go? Where do you go to? You go to the structure. You go to the. And it creates this just intense. Yeah. I'm curious just because I didn't know this, this Holly very much. This is before we. We met, but, like, when you were all in. In this, in this stage and seeking safety. Like, tell me what it looked like, all the things that you carried at this time for your kids as a Mormon woman, as a mother, callings wise,
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:41:19] like, what did it, what did it
Margi Dehlin [00:41:20] look like and what did it ask of you?
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:41:24] I mean, the church both gave me a place to shine, and it did. I had a lot of opportunities. And the church also took me away from a lot of things. And I said yes. I was like, I will say yes to all the callings, and I will show up every week for church, and I will go to the meetings, and I will. And it wasn't even because I felt like I had to. It was because I. I, like, wanted to. I wanted to give my heart to the church, and I wanted my kids to see me doing that. I wanted them to see me willing to, like, put my heart and soul into the things that matter to me. You know, I wanted them to see that. I just lost my train of thought.
Margi Dehlin [00:42:09] Yes, it happens.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:42:10] Okay? It happens.
John Dehlin [00:42:11] I'm dying. Asking this question. If you're looking back now at sort of orthodox Holly and push comes to shove, it's like, oh, you're forced to choose. Kelly's like, look, I don't believe it anymore. He comes out to you fictitiously and says, I don't believe it anymore. Me or the church. What was more important to you at that time? If. If we could go back and just give a microphone to orthodox Holly and say, holly, what's more important ultimately? What's more important, Kelly or the church? What would you say at that moment?
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:42:44] Honestly, I don't.
Margi Dehlin [00:42:46] I don't.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:42:47] I never felt like I had to make that choice. Like, I felt like I felt like Kelly was going to support me through it, and I felt like I didn't really feel like I had to make that choice, but if I did, I mean, I probably would have chosen the church because Kelly and I were having a lot of other struggles in our marriage. You know, we. We had this, like, beautiful part to our marriage. This, like, work heartedness and this funness, but we really kind of lost, like. Like our intimacy was missing.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:43:20] I was suppressing. He was suppressing. We never really had, like, great. We both just came into the issue or the marriage, I think, with some issues we didn't have. Like, I don't think we had a healthy, real understanding of. Of sex. And. And so that was kind of a struggle for us from day one.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:43:42] And we didn't have a great emotional intimacy. Like, we just. We, like, had fun together and we, like, watched the shows together and we built a life together, but we didn't have, like, real talks about real things other than if it was our children. And then there was that.
Margi Dehlin [00:44:01] So, like, that emotional vulnerability, is that what you mean?
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:44:03] It was missing. Yeah, missing. I don't think I felt safe, and I think Kelly didn't want to share that part of himself. I. I feel like we just. We didn't have the ability to be really vulnerable when. When we were in those times, we didn't know how to do it.
Margi Dehlin [00:44:21] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:44:22] And where would you have ever learned that that was an important part of marriage to be vulnerable? Where would you have learned that? It certainly wasn't one of the lessons we were taught. It wasn't by our parents or by our church. True.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:44:34] I will say this. I do feel like I had a really good example of parents who. Who had, like, a vulnerability and a softness and. And it. And it. Something to their marriage. And that was part of what gave me this young girl hope of, like, real love and, like, true love. I don't think. And I don't think I appreciated that when I was a child as much as I do now. But, you know, I. I wanted to have this kind of, like, love in my marriage that was, like, beautiful and. And connecting and respected, and it just wasn't that way. So that was so hard for me because I loved. I loved us. I loved what we built. But then it was like. But neither of us are really, like, in love. We're just committed and we're. We're gonna do this.
Margi Dehlin [00:45:24] Yeah.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:45:25] But, like, we're not really in love with each other. In fact, are we even really, like, good friends?
Margi Dehlin [00:45:30] Yeah. That is so real. I feel like. And this is where I think it gets so tricky is this idea of love. Because I think. Okay, I'll just speak for me for a minute. But growing up, it's just like if you. If you love someone, you marry them. It's like, that's the narrative is you fall in love. When you love someone, you. It's never like you are going to love a lot of people. Like, love is part of the human experience. There's a lot of love to be had. And not every love should you marry or partner with or connect with. Right. Love does not mean compatibility. To create a life and a family,
John Dehlin [00:46:09] you're saying you need more than love. Love isn't enough sometimes.
Margi Dehlin [00:46:13] But. But that's not something that I connected to at that stage at all.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:46:18] Right.
Margi Dehlin [00:46:18] It was just like. No, you. You. You get to love someone and you marry them. That is what happens. Yes.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:46:23] And then the problem is, is that when you realize the love that the love that you need is not there. It's just not there. But then you do love. You, love you. I loved Kelly. I loved what we built.
Margi Dehlin [00:46:35] But this.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:46:36] This other kind of love, whatever you want to call it, like, it was missing and I knew it. And he knew it.
Margi Dehlin [00:46:42] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:46:43] Thanks.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:46:45] Oh, the love was missing. Yeah, I just. I think. And it's not even. Just. It's not even the spark. Maybe it's the fire. Maybe it's that, like that. That fire. And. And look, I know that we go through periods in. In all sorts of relationships where there. There's, like, highs and lows, there's flaming enough time.
Margi Dehlin [00:47:05] Yeah.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:47:05] It's not like it should always be just on fire, but I think that there is just a feeling that you have when the love is really there and you. You know it. You know it when it's there. And. And I knew that it was not there anymore, and Kelly knew it was not there anymore, and. And we would throw around the idea of divorce sometimes, but. And we fought. Like, we. We fought. We. We're both passionate people. We're both, like, really strong, passionate people and opinionated people, and. And we just fought a lot. Like, we. We were fighters.
Margi Dehlin [00:47:42] It was.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:47:42] Yeah, we fought. And some of that fight, I think, is what kept us going and what kept us holding on when we wanted to give up. Because we went through some challenges in our marriage. Infidelity, betrayals. You know, we went through a lot of that stuff and that. That. That. We fought through it. We fought through it, but that. That just. That piece was. Was missing. That. That piece was missing. And. And I kind of felt like, you know, I. When I got home from my mission and Kelly, like, paid attention to me and wanted to marry me and, like, chose me, I felt like he was not choosing me anymore. And that sucked. To feel, like, so chosen and then, like, not chosen. Even though he was with me and committed to me, I didn't feel like he really was choosing. Choosing me.
John Dehlin [00:48:29] Why not? Just because he was so busy with med school, and.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:48:32] I mean, we were both busy. If you asked him, he would say the same. I. I don't think Holly was choosing me. I mean, I think we were both choosing everything else. We were both choosing our. Our careers, our children, you know, the church, whatever it was. We were. And we were just busy. We were, like, so busy between our lives. We. We were just our. Our kids. We had our kids, like, signed up for all the things, you know, like, all the things. And I was just so proud of how busy I was. You know, I look back now, and I'm like, oh, it's so silly. But at the time, you're just kind of priding yourself on this. This climbing the ladder, this building, this life, this. You know.
Margi Dehlin [00:49:13] Yeah.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:49:14] You know, we're gonna, we have this plan for our kids, we have this plan for our life. We're gonna do all these things, and you just keep building and, and doing it and chasing and climbing.
John Dehlin [00:49:24] I think Margi and I can really relate to a lot of, of what you're describing because I think we, and there's differences, but we definitely had those moments of super busyness and maybe not the emotional connection we wanted. But I'm thinking about the orthodox Mormon mindset, and it's not like you can be raised to adulthood in Mormonism, have several kids, and never have heard of Harvl Hendricks, or never have heard of Esther Perel, or never have heard of John Gottman. John Gottman, any of the real marriage experts that will help you understand if you want to fix and repair and learn to develop emotional intimacy, you would have never heard those names ever.
John Dehlin [00:50:08] And instead you would have been taught, you know, therapy is questionable and trust your bishop, and if you've got problems, go to your bishop or live the gospel better. And I'm not trying to, I'm not trying to, like, talk bad about Mormonism. I'm just saying there is zero culture in Mormonism to like, even know the names of who the experts would be to figure out how to make your marriage better, let alone the confidence or the recommendations to learn from the experts. It's literally just double down on righteousness. Are you doing your family prayer? Are you doing your scripture study? Are you servant in your calling?
John Dehlin [00:50:46] Are you paying your tithing? And somehow you would, you would be under the impression that that would be your best shot at making your marriage better. Am I wrong? That's, that's how it, that's, that's how my Mormon experience was.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:50:59] Yeah, I mean, I definitely think that I, I felt this, this kind of like, you know, if, if I, if I commit. So in a way, I chose God first because I felt like if I commit to God, if I commit to his kingdom, his church, that way, then. Then he will help my marriage come back together. Like, as if it's somebody else's job to, like, by me earning this. It's his job to, like, help my marriage come back together. It was like, no. So to me, it was all like this belief system in me that, that, that, that could even work. That it was like, it was mine and Kelly's job to make this thing work.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:51:36] It wasn't my goodness or my doingness in the church. Um, it was, it was like, up to us. And we tried. We, you know, we did the best we could we. We tried to communicate, but we. I don't think either of us had super healthy communication skills. And, you know, when you're in the fire doing this work, it's easy to think, you're like.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:51:59] Like, we know how to communicate. We know how to do all these things. It's like. But in hindsight, I can be like, we didn't know what the hell we were doing. We just did not really know what we were doing. We were. We just. We were doing our best. That's all we were doing. We were doing our best with what we knew.
Margi Dehlin [00:52:16] That's right. That is the human. Yeah. Like, what it means to be human. It's like, we don't know what we don't know.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:52:23] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:52:24] Right. At the time that we don't know it, we just don't. Yeah. Yeah.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:52:29] And to think about that, during some really challenging moments in our marriage, when Kelly and I needed to come together, you know, we were. I was going to the bishop to talk to the bishop about things about, like. Like, it's just so not.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:52:43] Not the way to do it. But I. I didn't know what else to do, you know, Like, I didn't know what else to do. So I would talk to family, I would talk to my bishop. I would, like, you know, what am I supposed to do? And I think somewhere deep in me, like, I just kind of knew that, like, this marriage might not last, but I wasn't willing to stop fighting for it. And I. And I was. I was scared. I was so scared. Like, everything I've done my whole life, everything I've prided myself on, you know, like.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:53:16] Like work and the church and my kids and, like, everything I prided myself on is just gonna come apart. Like, that doesn't seem fair. Yeah, it didn't seem fair.
Margi Dehlin [00:53:29] Yeah.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:53:32] Sorry. I don't know where that came from.
John Dehlin [00:53:34] A good place.
Margi Dehlin [00:53:35] It's so effortful, though. It's so effortful. I think, and I hear a lot of the roles thing as well in. In urine Kelly's life. That, I think is. It takes so much work, I think, to make those roles work as well. And I think there is. There is a taking away from each other in roles as a. As opposed to kind of a real partnership. Yeah, I think it's. It's this dividing and conquering, but they're different worlds. They just are, you know.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:54:09] That's so beautiful. That is. What we did is instead of a partnership, it was divide and conquer. I do these things, you do these things, and I'm Kind of mad that you're not helping with this thing because I. You think you should really be helping me, but I'm just going to do it and you do your thing. And meanwhile, you're building up all sorts of resentments towards each other that you don't even know are there. You know.
Margi Dehlin [00:54:26] Exactly.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:54:27] Because you're playing roles. Yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin [00:54:29] And the only point I'm trying to make is that if I could wave my wand to make every religion healthy, there would be a culture of like, hey, oh, you want to make your marriage better? Harvl Hendricks, Esther Perel, John Gottman. Here are the books, here are the experts. Here's how to do it. Maybe we'll have some. A special Sunday school lesson about making your marriage better. And it's not about necessarily reading your scriptures and praying. All I'm saying is you guys maybe wanted to make things better, but you weren't in a culture that actually was pointing you to the resources where you actually had a chance to make it better even if you wanted to.
John Dehlin [00:55:05] You were in a culture that was saying, well, double down, pay your tithing, serving your callings, read the scriptures. And that in the end, those things don't help, actually. In fact, they may have been driving a wedge between you and Kelly instead of actually helping. I'm not trying to impose this narrative on you. It's just something I've seen a lot.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:55:24] I agree. And I think here's the paradox about it, is that, yes, they're not teaching you these things, but they're offering all these other great things, like community wherever you go, you know, and when. When I was mid-30s, I was pregnant with my third daughter. Kelly had just found out where he was matching for residency. So we were going to move. We're like in this crazy period of I'm working with two kids. He's about to find out where he's going to residency and I get cancer. And like, we. I have to figure it out. And the church actually helped me so much during that time.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:55:58] I moved to San. I had my surgery, I had my baby, and then I. We moved to San Diego during all of this. And I immediately had like this. This beautiful. These beautiful people that came in and helped me and were a part of my recovery and they were instant community. So it's like you have this, like.
Margi Dehlin [00:56:15] It's like a trade off.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:56:16] It's a trade off. It's like. But I have this part of the church which is so wonderful and so beautiful and then. But also there's this. It's this. This, like. It's like this wedge, but also this, like, really beautiful thing. And it's so conflicting. It's so conflicting.
Health Crisis and the Slow Breakdown of Marriage
Margi Dehlin [00:56:30] So is this. So the time of year? So now I feel like we're getting into sort of when things start kind of breaking down. Is that right?
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:56:39] So you.
Margi Dehlin [00:56:39] You now have. You're diagnosed with cancer. Is this during the time also that you're feeling, you know, this growing kind of divide in your marriage, or is this before you've identified that?
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:56:54] I think I felt it because, like I said, we had struggles from the beginning, even. Yeah, we had struggles from the beginning, but. So I felt it. But this. This was a time where I. I think I was just so. Like, life was just so busy. I don't even think we had time to think about it. It was like, okay, just so busy. Life was just busy. And. And I can say in hindsight, like, that. That time. Here's the thing, though, that. That during those times in our marriage, actually, like, during the time I got cancer, Kelly and I had closeness. It was like something hard came up.
Margi Dehlin [00:57:30] Yes.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:57:31] And come together. We came together. So during what? During all of the times in our marriage where things got really hard. It's also this time where we came together. It was during all the other times when we were just busy and living. Doing. Doing life, that we were growing apart. Okay, Got it. That's how I would.
Margi Dehlin [00:57:49] So you were diagnosed with thyroid cancer, Is that right?
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:57:53] Yeah. Yes.
Margi Dehlin [00:57:54] And then treated.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:57:55] So I was diagnosed with thyroid cancer, which is like, a very curable cancer, one of the better ones to get. But it's like, you don't want to hear that when you have cancer, you're like, okay, I'm pregnant. I'm about to move away from my family again, and I've got cancer. Okay. You know, kind of sucks.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:58:11] And. And so that. That happened over a period of just so much. I had. I was diagnosed within a week. I met with doctors, had surgery, and then a couple months later, we moved to San Diego so Kelly could start residency. Then I had my baby. And then we got involved in the ward. He got involved in school. You can see, like, we're just busy again. We just get super busy again. So we have these, like, these sort of, like, moments that come up for us, and then we just go back to busy life. And what else do you do when you have to.
Margi Dehlin [00:58:42] It's the default setting. Right. So you'll have interrupters, but then you go back to sort of. Okay.
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:58:47] And I didn't know any other Way. Like, it's funny, I grew up in this sign of kind of like, simple, slower life, but, like, by this time, I was so ingrained in my new way of living, which was like, go, go, go. Do, do, do. Just keep going. Just keep going. Put one in front of. Put one foot in front of the other and just keep going. We don't stop to really think about things. We just keep moving. Move, you know?
Margi Dehlin [00:59:08] Yeah. Yep. So amidst this time, you know, do we have a catalyst for sort of a change or a transition kind of space? Was there something that happened, or is there, like, a slow kind of unraveling when it comes to. We've mentioned your marriage. We know your career kind of joins. Right. And some of these other things. How would you describe that? How things slowly start to kind of unravel, fall apart? You find yourself kind of in this faith transition, moment of suffering?
Holly Ashton Wallin [00:59:42] Yeah, that's a great question. I think that was a very slow unraveling for me, and that started around the time I was 40, just shy of being 40. I just felt, like, burnt out. I was so exhausted. I was, like, doing all the things, and I just started feeling really burnt out. My body, I mean, I was, like, so physically active and. And. And busy and. And mentally active, like. But I just was feeling this kind of, like, exhaustion hitting me.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:00:19] My stomach was, like, constantly in pain. I was, like, just sick to my stomach often, and. And I just really started to feel like my marriage is dying. I'm starting to question my beliefs. And it didn't really start with me having a huge shelf breaking. It was very gradual. But I do have moments, just moments of when I started recognizing this exhaustion and this busyness and this just kind of sort of unraveling of it all, and. And part of it was that I wanted to grow. I wanted to grow my horizons. I wanted to see out. I wanted to see the world outside of the church.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:01:11] I wanted to, like, you know, we. We traveled, and I would see these places and these people, and I was so curious about this different way of living. But then I would come back to my comfort zone, and I started wanting to, like, know more about the world around me. I just became curious. I started reading things, and I was, like, reading the ensign, reading my scriptures. Like. Like, the church just took a lot of my time. It took a lot of my time, in some ways, which were beautiful, and in other ways, which took my time. And I started wanting to really, like, grow kind of outside of that paradigm.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:01:47] I could feel myself wanting to grow, and. And then I was also scared because I loved the church, so and. And I felt like I wanted to grow. I was growing apart from Kelly. It was just. It was just such a mix of so many complicated feelings. And I would, I would, I would read books that inspired me that were not written by church leaders. I would, I would. I started actually recognizing, I think this was an important point in my shifting. I started recognizing that some of my dearest friends were people that weren't, didn't believe the same way as me. And most of my life I really associated with people who had my belief system.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:02:29] I loved people outside of it, but I really felt like safer with people within it. And I started making friends that were like I was having these kind of authentic connections with people that had totally different beliefs than me. And I loved that. I love the idea of like these people think so differently than me and I actually feel like I can be so myself. It was just this, like, kind of this expansion taking place in me of wanting to grow, but also wanting to stay and be this, this. Because I was like, I would, we would move places and I was not afraid to tell people I was Mormon. I was not afraid to like, let that, that part of me be known.
Margi Dehlin [01:03:09] Lead. Yeah.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:03:10] Because I was actually proud of that part of me. It was the part of me that was seen and recognized. And so I was not afraid to shine in that way. I was, I was like kind of a missionary minded. Not in an annoying way. Like I didn't really have this burning desire to like bring all these people into it, but like, I was proud of, of my Mormonism. I was proud of, of who I was. And, and so I, I took that with me wherever I went. Yeah, I just got a little sidetracked again.
Margi Dehlin [01:03:38] Well, I'm curious because in the beginning, like a little bit ago you were talking about kind of there being time where you know the role and kind of the. You kind of double down with the church and feeling kind of invigorated or emboldened or energized with within. And now we're kind of at a new space, a space of feeling a bit more tired, more fatigued, right? Yes. A heaviness kind of.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:04:08] Yes.
Margi Dehlin [01:04:08] That you're walking with. Is it feeling different now now to try and do all those things?
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:04:15] Yes, because it's feeling like my heart is not really in it anymore. It's feeling like I'm just like. It's one thing to do something when your heart is in it. It's another thing to do it when you're like heart's not really into this thing anymore. And, but also like, I. I had this one moment that was very pivotal during all of this. Kind of like me recognizing my tiredness, me feeling exhausted. You know, there's this whole idea of being chosen.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:04:46] You know, I, I think that there was this part of me, like, all of us want to be chosen, right? We all want to be seen and loved and chosen. And there was part of me that loved this kind of idea that in Mormonism, we were like, special and chosen. There's this part of it because you want to feel that way. But as I was going through this period of shifting that, that belief or that. That feeling just did not feel good to me. And I remember this one time I was in a. We had traveled to Utah. This was in my early 40s. We had traveled to Utah to come visit family and go skiing and, and I went to church with my in laws and there was a lesson in Sunday school.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:05:27] And I just remember this, the idea that day of, of. Of our chosenness being brought up and us being of this chosen, you know, this chosen people. And I remember, like, I physically felt sick that day. I was like, yeah, this doesn't feel very good anymore. To feel like we have something special, even though we did, it was unique. But also this idea of specialness started to really bother me, but it also made me feel.
Margi Dehlin [01:05:56] It's.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:05:56] It's just so weird how these things are so paradoxical. You can feel like it's so nice to feel special and chosen, but then, like, that doesn't feel really good. We're not any better than anyone else, right? And my dear friends who were not in my faith were like amazing people. And I was like, how am I supposed to work that? How am I supposed to work that through? Like, because I, I know something they don't. That makes me special. Like, that doesn't feel good to me. That didn't feel good. That was a moment.
Margi Dehlin [01:06:23] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, during this time, is this kind of. Is it sort of like a progression of. You know, we've.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:06:36] Now you've.
Margi Dehlin [01:06:37] You've taken us through this kind of building of a life using all your resources and energy and having almost this momentum, right, to create this, this life, you and Kelly together. And now we're kind of at this part, right, where a bit is unraveling. And do you want to take us through the unraveling? Just sort of the steps of where we had the building of a life. Now we're going to have a Bit of the falling part of a life. Yeah.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:07:06] Yeah. So that moment I just shared was probably the real beginning. I think there were things all throughout my life that built up to that, but that was kind of a moment for me. And during this time, I also started practicing yoga. And I was. I was drawn to yoga. I. It's funny because growing up, my sister taught yoga, and I was just always kind of like, these people do yoga. These people don't. I don't do yoga. So I kind of like, I. I wasn't really ever open to that. And I always thought it was like, kind of. There was something like a mystery about it, but I always was a little afraid of, like, that world of, you know, mysticism and just.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:07:46] I don't know, it just scared me a little bit. But I was. I was kind of intrigued by it. And so finally I kind of just felt like, you know, I'm going to try this thing called yoga that everyone's talking about, people that I love are talking about. I'm going to try this thing. And so I started practicing yoga during this time and.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:08:02] And that. That was a very pivotal part of my sort of unraveling because I would. I would go to this. This new practice that. And I didn't know what I was doing, and it was really, really hard for me. And I had to, like. I had to, like, feel like I had to start feeling again when I would. When I would be in my practice, I would really start to feel like all of these. These feelings of. Of.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:08:30] And they were hard. Like, I was really recognizing. And when I would go to practice and I would be on my mat, I would be in a certain pose or I would. I would be. I would be in a call to a place, and I would just feel. I would just feel like the kind of. The unraveling of what was happening and the confusion and. But I would let myself. I wasn't trying to, like, push it away. I wasn't trying to just stay busy. I was, like, letting myself sort of feel. Feel these things. And I had this one moment where I was in child's pose, and in child's pose is this beautiful kind of metaphorical idea of.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:09:12] Of being like a child and you're humble and you come down to earth and you place your forehead on the mat and you just rest into the earth, and there's this kind of feeling of humility that comes with that. And I was in child's pose and. And I was.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:09:27] I could feel like this, this. This, like, burning, this kind of Fire within me. I felt it. It was. And it was almost like I could hear myself thinking for the first time. I could. Almost like I could hear this. This voice. And I remember having this moment on that day where I felt like, you know, I had. I had trusted in. In the leaders my whole life. I had trusted in my spiritual experiences, which I attributed to the church. And I had many spiritual experiences, but I had trusted that those were a part of my Mormonism. And that day, in that pose, I felt this.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:10:03] This voice inside of me. And I. Or this call inside of me. I don't even know how to name what it is, but it was the first time I was like that. That voice that we're. We're taught comes from this external source. This. This Holly Ghost, this. This still small voice that comes from outside of me. That is my voice. It's mine. It always was. It always has been. My spiritual experiences do not have anything to do with anything other than I am a human being, and we all have them all the time. It's a matter if we see them or not. They don't have anything to do with our.
A Pivotal Shift in Perspective and Belief
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:10:38] Our, you know, where we're born or what, how we're raised. They're just part of this experience. And that was like, such a humble and empowering moment for me. Like, this humility of like, maybe I've been wrong, maybe I was wrong, and maybe I trusted in someone outside of me. And also this moment of like. But, like, I know, I know. I know better for me, I know that that voice is in me and I can trust that voice. And. And during the next few years, I really tried to learn how to trust myself. And I'm still. I'm still learning how to do that. That is not when you've learned how to trust everyone else for so many years. Learning how to trust yourself is not just something that happens overnight. It is skill.
Margi Dehlin [01:11:29] That's right. It's a practice.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:11:31] It's a practice. And even on my way here today, I was questioning myself and struggling with, like, you know, what am I going to say? Like, I don't know. And I had to just remember, like, you got to trust yourself and just practice that skill for it to get better. Right? So during this time, I really started kind of recognizing, I think first recognizing that the voice was mine. Recognizing that we all have an internal voice or call or fire or whatever within us, and it's just part of who we are. It's not given to us because we're special. It's not anybody else's to take. It's ours. And, and we can learn to trust it.
Margi Dehlin [01:12:11] Yeah.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:12:12] And.
Margi Dehlin [01:12:13] Yeah.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:12:14] So, yeah, that was kind of my. That was kind of the unraveling that took place for a few years. And finally I.
Margi Dehlin [01:12:21] And.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:12:21] And during this time, I started doing my research. I thought, you know what? I, I need to start. If I'm, If I'm questioning, like, my belief system, I want to know a little bit more about it. So I started questioning more, I started researching more, started asking more questions. I started going to the bishop, I started bringing things up to Kelly and ironically, my marriage was, like, falling apart. And at the same time, I could go to Kelly and we could talk about things that I was questioning that he had questioned before that we never got to talk about. And it was kind of this weird.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:12:50] Like, this weird. My marriage is falling apart, Our love has died. I don't really trust this right now. Like, Like, I was, I. I was hurt. I was questioning him. I was, I was in pain. And yet, like, this, this other part of our marriage was. We were kind of growing in our friendship because we could talk about hard things that we just didn't talk. We could talk about hard things, you know, that I wasn't willing to really talk about when I was, When I was all in. So. So the church or my belief system started unraveling and my marriage was unraveling. And that's.
Margi Dehlin [01:13:28] Your. What about the career aspect? Would have that come in yet? Or was that.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:13:32] Yeah, so I was questioning my career at this point. I had been in corporate travel for 20 years, and I was quite questioning. I really loved my job. Like, I, I was with an amazing company who took good care of me, and I loved working for them. I, like, loved my job. I loved that I could work from home. They trusted me to do that. They. I had some flexibility. It was. It felt good to be, like, working and, and to be. To be, like, contributing. Although my, you know, my contribution financially wasn't. Wasn't that much. It was like. It was. It was. It wasn't enough to help us to be able to do some fun things.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:14:08] And so I loved my job, but also I was feeling kind of burnt out. It was like, you know, it wasn't. I didn't have, like, a passion for it anymore. I didn't have, like, a passion for what I was doing. So I was questioning my work, questioning my marriage. I was questioning the church. And kind of. They were all kind of, kind of all going together, like, at the same time, coming in and out of questioning different ones, which was so. Really, I was having this, like, almost like, huge crisis of my whole life because it was like, my belief system, my marriage, and my career.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:14:45] Holly, Holly, Holly. That is who I am. So an identity and identity. And who am I if I am not these things that I have built my life around and that I've worked so hard for? And that was really, really, really scary at first.
Margi Dehlin [01:15:04] Yeah, I can imagine.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:15:06] And you had.
Margi Dehlin [01:15:07] So you have this, like. Which I could hear that yoga story, like, a million times.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:15:11] No, you've heard it all the time.
Margi Dehlin [01:15:12] Sorry. I just. I'm saying I could because I love it so much. Like, I. It reminds me. Your narrative of. That reminds me of the poem the Journey by Mary Oliver about. Right. All the voices that I view. I know we both love yoga, so all the yoga people out there, but I do feel like yoga presents, like, that clearing of stars, right, where you're able to hear a voice and you realize it's your own. That's what I kind of view as yoga. So you had, like, this moment. Yes, this, you know. Yes. And I'm so curious what, you know, what brought you to yoga class, though.
Discovering Yoga and Questioning a Career
Margi Dehlin [01:15:55] So was it. So I know what brought me to yoga initially, but, like, was it. You were just curious? Was it. You had a studio by your house and you saw it go up. Was it suffering? Actually, like, you noticing that. This loss of safety, noticing a lot of anxiety coming up, like, what was it that got you in the yoga door to have that moment that then allowed you sort of, in a way to connect with something that guided you through a, you know, your life kind of, you know, falling apart the way you knew it.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:16:31] I love that question. And I think all of those things brought me to it. But I think in the beginning, it was like, I wanted to try something different and new and challenging, and a studio happened to go up near me, and it was, like, a really cool vibe there. It was just, like, a beautiful studio. I went and checked it out, and I was feeling like. I think there was just something in me that felt drawn to it. It felt drawn to this, like,
Margi Dehlin [01:17:05] this.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:17:05] This sort of, like, there's, like, a mystery to the practice that. You know, there's just this mysteriousness about this practice that. That kind of drew me to it. What kind of initially pushed me away from it and, like, kept me safe from that. I was kind of drawn to that. The, like, mystery of this practice. And. And. And I could tell that people that really were practicing were.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:17:31] They seemed, like, just. They seemed different. I noticed Something about them. And so I started going to classes and I. I had really wonderful teachers that I really connected with, and I would. I would. It was like, for me, yoga became. It was like an experience. It was like, I wasn't just going to a class to, like, burn my calories because, believe me, like, before that, I was like the girl checking your watch and, like, making sure I'm getting, you know, like, doing all that. I wasn't going to yoga as much for the, like, calorie burn as, like.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:18:03] I just. I just want to experience something different. I want to feel. Feel more. And that is exactly what it did for me, is it allowed me to. To feel. And not all the feelings were good feelings. They were challenging. But I kind of liked. I kind of liked that challenge of, like, having to go within and, And. And. And really have quiet the mind and. And just practice not thinking about everything. Because I was such a. Like, yeah. Overanalyzing, overthinking, overdoing. Like, that was just how my brain worked. And I loved this idea of like, I need stillness. I need something to quiet all of what's going on up here. And I knew it. I was drawn to that. It was also really hard.
Margi Dehlin [01:18:54] Yeah. Yep. Simultaneous. Yeah. Yeah.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:18:57] I.
Margi Dehlin [01:18:57] One thing I do think in yoga is, as you're talking about feeling is I have been to so many classes in yoga where at the end of class someone's crying or in the middle of class, someone starts crying. You know, you just have. I just have such this love for those. Those people because oftentimes, you know, they apologize or they. And I always try to go over and say, you know, something of comfort because you're like, you know, me too. Yes, me too. I've been you too. And, you know, it's part of the practice, and you're doing it. You're like. You're feeling it all, you know?
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:19:35] Yes.
Margi Dehlin [01:19:36] So, yeah, feeling the feels.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:19:39] There's such a connection. There's. There's like a human connection that you feel when. Whether it's that you're witnessing another human crying or. Or you're, like, listening to the sound of everyone breathing. It's like the wind. It's like you hear the collective wind, and it's just this beautiful experience of. It's this. This like, very inward experience that you're having with yourself. And this feeling of being embodied when you're, like, moving your body in this way that is so, like, flowy. And it's just like this beautiful feeling. And also there's this energy. There's this energy with these people and this connection and it's just this beautiful spiritual whatever you want to call it.
Margi Dehlin [01:20:19] Experience. Yeah.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:20:20] Soulful experience.
Margi Dehlin [01:20:21] And you know what I'm realizing also another community. Yes. Like gives you also. So this, this feeling of you're part of something without losing yourself.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:20:33] Yes. Because you do.
Margi Dehlin [01:20:34] There is space for the inner as well while you're experiencing this kind of collective group thing too. So.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:20:41] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:20:41] Anyway, I just really wanted to ask, did you have something to say?
John Dehlin [01:20:44] I was just going to say that you would think that any organization slash religion would incorporate anything that's healthy and non threatening. But if I were to ask why maybe a high demand religion wouldn't incorporate yoga as part of a spiritual discipline. It's because of this very. It's very dangerous for you to learn to listen to your own voice. Like a high demand religion wants you obeying, listening to the authority.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:21:14] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:21:15] They don't want you practicing looking within.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:21:18] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:21:19] And. And it's ironic because Jesus taught the kingdom of God is where the kingdom of God is within. Right. And that's what yo. Yoga for so many people does. It directs you within. And that's actually quite dangerous to high demand religion. And it would make sense why the Mormon church doesn't have yoga classes regularly.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:21:38] Right. Can you imagine a yoga class like before you go into it, like a meditation session before you go into ward council? Like really? That would be amazing. But yeah, I mean I think that
John Dehlin [01:21:47] or, or if the temple.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:21:49] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:21:49] Instead of the temple being watch a movie over and over and over again.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:21:53] Right.
John Dehlin [01:21:53] Where you're told this is what you should believe and this is the narrative. And this. What if you just go to the temple and for an hour you meditate?
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:22:00] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:22:00] That would be disastrous.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:22:02] Well and I think a lot of that is because there's a hierarchy that comes with, with religion and systems. There is a hierarchy. Yoga is about your experience. It's about you are the author of your practice, you are the author of your life. It is you. And religion is very much very different from it being you. It's. It's not that way.
Margi Dehlin [01:22:22] So yeah. And there's. There is. I mean to be clear, there's guruism within yoga too.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:22:28] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:22:29] Like it.
Margi Dehlin [01:22:29] So these things follow us where we go.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:22:31] It is true.
Margi Dehlin [01:22:33] So I just.
John Dehlin [01:22:34] There's cults.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:22:34] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:22:35] Like the check out Beram.
Margi Dehlin [01:22:37] Just Google be so we, we can acknowledge that up front. Parado. Right. Yes. But so we're kind of in that part of your story where things are slowly kind of breaking down a Little bit. I wanted to touch on loss. Your experience with loss and coping with loss as you're experiencing kind of this change in your life where the things that you've put tremendous amounts of love, energy, and care are falling apart, you know, and what that felt like for you and how did you cope with that?
Leaving the Church and Feeling Alone
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:23:20] I felt really lonely and I felt like I was going crazy. I felt like I was going crazy. I was, like, questioning all of these beautiful things and. And I would bring these things up to people who loved me and wanted to support me, but there was just a part of me that felt like I was just going crazy. Like, why. Why would I question all of these things that I have, like, centered my life and my heart and my time and my energy around and like, something wrong with me. I'm, like, feeling so torn and so pulled into different directions. And I really. I really wanted to.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:24:01] To stay in the church and to find a way to do it. And. And when I knew I couldn't, like, when I knew I had to, that was the first thing I let go. When I knew I had to let that go and walk away, it. It felt. I felt both, like, crushed by that choice. I knew I would hurt people by that choice. And I cared about what people thought of me. I cared about not hurting my family, cared about not hurting people in the church. But I knew that, like, I could not do that anymore.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:24:37] I. My mom had a scripture hanging on our wall when I was a child. I saw it every day when I walked in and out of the door. It was a little cross stitch scripture, and it said, my greatest joy is to know that my children walk in truth. And, and, and I tried so hard to, like, walk in truth. My whole life. I tried to do the church thing. That was the truth to me. I tried to walk in truth. And when I. When I knew I needed to leave the church, like, I knew that no matter what anyone else thought, no matter if I even was, like, right or wrong about doing this, like, I needed to do what felt like the thing for me to do.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:25:19] And that thing was for me to leave the church and to, and, and, and to just grow in a new way. And. But it was scary because I had these children who were in the church and who loved the church and who were doing all the things. And I was so terrified that I was going to hurt them or, you know, like, the church was good for them in many ways. So it was just this, like.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:25:48] Like the hardest thing for me during all this loss was just this conflict of like, having this inner knowing about what I needed to do, but then feeling like, like, I am so crazy for doing this. Like, why would I do this? It was just so conflicting. And so I questioned myself a lot and I, I felt like I was losing myself. I felt like I was losing just like all of the parts of me that I worked so hard for. It, like, just this idea of, like, losing everything I believed in about myself was like, like, so hard. I was like, like, what? Who am I gonna be?
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:26:26] What am I gonna do? Like, I don't know how to do a life on my own. I don't know how to do a life without religion. Like, how am I going to do this? And so I felt like, I felt really lonely. I felt so, so lonely. I would just sit in my, my bedroom and I would, I would just like, cry. I would just like, like, I don't know how to do this. I wasn't like, really excited about losing these things. I wasn't just like, get me out of here. I want to go and do what I want. I was just like, I don't know how to do this without a guide and a plan and a committed relationship and a.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:27:04] Like, I just didn't know how to do it. So I was really, really, really scared. And loneliness showed up for me a lot. Fear showed up for me. But. But that, that, like that fire, that voice, that whatever it was within me was always a little bit more strong. It was like a little bit more strong. And.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:27:28] And eventually I ended up, you know, losing, losing the church. And then shortly after that, Kelly and I made the choice to, to separate. And the challenge is I. We were married 20 years and on our 20 year anniversary we went to dinner and it was the first time I tried wine. I got a glass of wine. We were on at dinner. And I knew that night our marriage was over. I knew it. I just knew it was over. And I was like, this is so confusing. Like, it's over, but like, here we are sort of celebrating this, like this milestone. Milestone. Yes.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:28:13] But I knew it was over and he knew it was over and. And I think both of us were conflicted. I think both of us felt that, like we knew it was over, but we. We weren't sure what to do.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:28:24] I sought help, I got therapy, I asked questions. But we decided to separate. And, and then, and that was, that was challenging. I was now living, you know, in a home with three children, alone, and I was trying to, you know, work and, and it was hard. It was, it was, it was like, we knew it was what needed to be done, but it was, it was really, really hard to finally let that go and to just say we need to move in a different direction and we need to go find ourselves and we need to.
Margi Dehlin [01:29:01] Yeah.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:29:01] Really ask the question, are we really good for each other at this point? Like, are we really good for each other? And I think we, we just, we're not anymore. I, I just don't think that we were. I don't even know if we ever were. But I'm also so proud of our lives together and what we did, you know, celebrating that, that's what's so hard about these things, that there's no, like, easy, clear answer. Sometimes it's like, either way you go there. There are consequences to choices. And so what do you do in these hard moments of, like, staying or going? What do you do?
John Dehlin [01:29:36] Right.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:29:37] I don't even know if we ever have, like, if we ever know for sure. But I think that there's, like, that, that something in us that, that, that knows what we need to do. If we're willing to listen, if we're willing to, like, do the hard job of, like, turning off all the outside voices and asking the hard questions, then I think we know.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:30:01] So Kelly and I separated, and then shortly after that, one thing led to the next. Covid came up, and my job in the travel industry was all of a sudden, like, super. There was, there was not as much job security in my job, and, and we were feeling that industry was impacted right away. We felt the effects from it.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:30:24] So that was really scary. But ultimately, I stayed on for a little while with my job and ultimately left that job. In a way, the job just changed. I, I, we were all kind of placed on furlough at work, and then we were brought back, but the work had changed, and it was very different. And I, I knew that I couldn't keep doing that in that space and raising my kids on my own, essentially, and I just couldn't keep doing it all. I was like, I can't keep being the Holly that just keeps doing all the things because I'm, I'm getting sick. I'm, like, getting sick when I just keep saying yes, and I keep doing the safe thing.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:31:05] And so, yeah, that felt like a big loss, though, and it felt scary. It felt really scary because I, I prided myself in my, you know, mom working in, in my ability to, like, be a mom and work. I also really struggled a lot in that space. It was a lot, a lot of pressure to, like, Try to do the work thing with. With kids and try to hold together a family and a calling and hobbies and community and, like, purpose. Like. Like holding that all together just felt like so much so. Yeah, I really started during this time just.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:31:45] And it's. It's ironic that kind of the. The. The. The last of my. Like the losing. The big things sort of happened for me at the beginning of COVID because I think that that was such a time for all of us to recognize that, like, something we need to slow down. Like, we cannot keep living in this way that we are all living.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:32:08] It is like the earth itself cannot do this. Like, people are sick, people are dying. Like, there was like, a deeper message within that.
Margi Dehlin [01:32:18] That moment.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:32:19] Moment that, like, we all started kind of questioning our way of living and. And going about life.
Margi Dehlin [01:32:25] And so you had this kind of larger thing going on, this macro thing going on. Yeah. At the same time that it's happening in your personal life too, in all these ways, because you have now your faith, you have your marriage, you have your career, and it's. It's kind of all compounded and affecting your health as well. Right. Which is a loss too.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:32:50] Yeah, it is.
Margi Dehlin [01:32:51] And then amidst sort of this kind of COVID framing. Yeah. Yeah, that's a lot. So you kind of talked about the suffering kind of showing up around crying. Right. And also therapy. Are there other things that either coping, like, were you still doing yoga? Things that emerged during that time as you were trying to process and manage suffering?
Finding New Ways to Process Grief and Loss
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:33:15] Yeah, I mean, that's when I. When I started walking a lot, I was. Would go on really long walks, and I just began, like, noticing things that I was too busy to pay attention to. I started to feel like the. The, like, young girl, Holly, the Holly that, like, noticed the horses in the field or the color of the grass or whatever the sun. Like, I started noticing that again. I started paying attention to nature and. And to my own internal thoughts. And so walking was like, really, really therapeutic for me.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:33:55] I was reading a lot of books. Eckhart Tolle is a favorite. His. His book A New Earth was probably the most pivotal of many of the books I read. I love so many of Brene Brown's works. Poetry reading was. Was really kind of a way to sort of help me deal with the suffering, like, to help me realize that the books I was reading helped me realize that this suffering was like, part of the journey. And it wasn't like a bad thing to be suffering. It was part of what this life is all about. And so There was kind of this, like, beauty and pain to my suffering during that time.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:34:33] There was this pain of, like, losing so much, but this beauty of, like. But this is part of, like, rebuilding a life. This is part of finding yourself. This is part of, like, developing empathy for. For. For humanity. When we suffer, we develop empathy for humanity. When we go through hard things, we cannot help but, like, feel and. And.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:34:59] And. And stop judging as month. As much. And so there was kind of this. This beautiful suffering that was taking place in me, you know, kind of this, like, metamorphosis, metamorphosis of this loss, but this, like, growth and it was all kind of happening together. And I started writing again, and I was just too busy to write for so many years, and I started.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:35:21] I started writing again. I started writing down thoughts. I would go on walks and I would have these, like, just epiphanies or these thoughts kind of come to me and. And I would. I would put them in my phone or I would go home and I would write about them. And so it was kind of this, this.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:35:38] And many of them were hard. They were like me writing about my suffering, me writing about these challenges. But I was. But at least I was like, getting them from my head to. From my heart to out. I wasn't just, like, keeping them all in anymore, processing. I was, like, processing. I was feeling and I was noticing, and I was just open to, like, exploring the. The hard feelings I was feeling. And there was kind of a beauty to that.
Margi Dehlin [01:36:05] Yeah, I love that. And I do feel like I love so much of what you touched on. This idea too, of, like, simultaneous loss, that in life, I feel like there's oftentimes simultaneous death and birth. So the moment you're losing things, also you're noticing things are being born. And I see that in a lot of what you're saying, because it brings you back to writing. It brings you your. This. This sensory self is bringing. Being brought back to you on your walks. And so I kind of love that sense of. We've been taught to fear suffering. We've been taught to personalize it. We've been taught to take responsibility for it.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:36:50] Yes.
Margi Dehlin [01:36:51] Um, as opposed to this idea that there can be. You can actually, you know. Yes, there's this death of self sometimes that comes about in these faith transition journeys. You can lose, you know, relationships and this sense of an identity and your place in the world. So there is this death of self, but there's also a reemerging. You know, there's that. And we don't Hear enough about that. We don't hear. And this is not to say go seek yourself some serious suffering. Like, for most of us, we don't have to. Right. It's just kind of part of the. But I think that willingness and surrendering and curiosity and willingness to, like, hold the suffering, though, there's just such beauty in that. And I'm just seeing it all over what you're describing.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:37:46] You know, you got back pieces of you.
Margi Dehlin [01:37:48] Yes.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:37:49] And I loved what you said about. That was just such a. Like a moment for me. Just of what you just said was so beautiful. But there was this. You talked about, you know, instead of feeling like we're. We need to take responsibility for these things. It's just this, like, surrendering this, like, it is what it is. It's part of life, and it's okay. It's okay. I think when we push this idea of suffering, this, like, you know, we push it away from us. Like, we don't just let it in to be what it is and it's. And it's really not. Doesn't need to be so horrible.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:38:23] There can actually be some growth in it when we let it touch us. And. And I. And I do also think sometimes we can stay in suffering too long. I've done that. I've. You know, it's like why we listen to sad songs. Right. Or why we. There's like this kind of beauty to.
Margi Dehlin [01:38:41] To.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:38:41] To sadness and, like, feeling into some of these feelings. There's. There's sort of this beauty in it, but. But sometimes we can get a little stuck in that and. And think we need to suffer more than we need to. But I think it is part of this journey. It's part of just being a human and really feeling like we're part of each other. We're part of something bigger. We all suffer.
Margi Dehlin [01:39:04] Yeah.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:39:04] We all feel we might have a really different experience in life, but we all have these same feelings. And that's. There's a connection to that.
Margi Dehlin [01:39:12] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I see what you're saying with. When we are maybe perpetuating suffering because of a belief we have about ourselves or we feel like we need to be punished.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:39:27] Right.
Margi Dehlin [01:39:27] That's different than kind of this sense of accepting the suffering that, you know, makes us human, makes us actually alive.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:39:37] Right.
Margi Dehlin [01:39:38] That those things are. Those are very, very different things. And as you're talking, it so reminds me in my, like, meditation practice, because I think this is new for us, you know, this sense of feeling and feeling really powerful emotions, you know, around grief and loss. And many of us are not really. It's new terrain. Maybe I'll say. And I just remember in those moments one of the phrases, that feeling. And I'm curious if you have some like this, but I just remember feeling this phrase where you say, this is what it feels like to be me right now. This is what it feels like to be me right now as this way of just holding it all and, like, letting it be, as opposed to, like, fighting it or wanting things to be different.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:40:28] Yeah. I love that so much.
Margi Dehlin [01:40:31] Do you have something like that that helps you just sort of lean into uncomfortable feelings, things you say?
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:40:37] This. This still shows up for me often, where it showed up for me a lot when I was making choices to leave. Things end, things change things. And it still shows up for me where I. I. This, like, fear can kind of overtake me sometimes, and I. And I start to feel, like, a lot of fear. And sometimes if I'll just, like, sit down and I just, like, be where I am in that moment, and I'm like, everything is okay. You have always been okay. You will always be okay. For me, it's just this simple, like. Yeah, okay.
Margi Dehlin [01:41:16] Yes.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:41:16] You've always been, and you always will be. That is very. A comforting feeling to me. That shows up for me.
Margi Dehlin [01:41:25] I love that. Yeah.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:41:27] And then the next day, I'm like, well, I'm gonna. I'm so scared.
Margi Dehlin [01:41:30] Like, it's like, that was a really nice moment.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:41:34] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:41:34] Okay.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:41:34] But 10 minutes later, the kids come home from school and gets chaos. And you're like, that is real life. That is real life. Real life.
Margi Dehlin [01:41:44] Before we Zen ourselves out too much. Yeah. So I feel like we're kind of at the rebuilding. How about you? Are you. Is there anything else you feel like we've missed up to kind of this point that you. You want to include?
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:41:59] I think that. I think we've done a good job. I think if there's anything else that maybe I would share just because I haven't talked a lot about my, you know, my mothering was my worries during this time around, how my choices would hurt and affect my kids. And I spent a lot of time, like, worried about that. And. And truthfully, like, my girls saw me in my worst of times. I mean, I was.
Navigating Divorce and Its Impact on Parenting
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:42:27] I was going through all the feelings. I was sad, I was angry. I was confused. I was all the things. And they saw me through so much, and. And I. I worried about, you know, how that would affect them, how. How my choices would affect them, and, you know, and I Still worry sometimes, like, would it have been better for my kids to have this, like, we all question certain things, you know? But my job as a parent has become more challenging because I feel like now I don't have a, like a, I don't have as much of a, A road map to follow. I don't have this, like, guide, this, like, plan to raise my kids a certain way.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:43:09] And that can feel really scary. But also what I've realized is that my kids cannot all be raised the same way. Like, my kids are so different, and one road map for all of them is not going to work. So I've just had to kind of, like, lean into parenting a little bit more and also let go of control. I, I, I think I spent many years, like, wanting to. And you don't know where you, you don't know you're doing it, when you're doing it. Right. Like, I didn't think I was controlling. Like, in hindsight, I was kind of controlling, you know? So learning how to re parent through all of this, I felt like a loss of parenting of, like, my parenting skills.
Margi Dehlin [01:43:50] Yes.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:43:51] Were like, that is real. And now I was left to, like, do this thing on my own with teenage girls, you know, who were all just like me when they were young, so confident and sure of themselves. And then as they get in to be the ages they, they are now, they start questioning and they start wondering and they start being curious. And that as a parent without, like a road map is, is feels like a loss and feels scary.
Margi Dehlin [01:44:18] Yes. Yeah. So another, Another kind of tower that kind of went down and another loss, it sounds like.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:44:27] And I still don't know what I'm doing with parenting, so I'm just figuring it out as I go. It's the truth. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:44:33] That's kind of how it's done.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:44:35] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:44:35] I kind of feel like we're all in process. Right. Right. So, yeah, our kids witness us in process, and it can feel really vulnerable. Yeah. To be human in front of them. One thing I just always try to remind myself is, is there in process too?
John Dehlin [01:44:51] Yes.
Margi Dehlin [01:44:51] And if we hide that or if we're too perfectionistic, like, how do they relate? How do they know how to grieve? It's like, I never saw my mom grieve.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:44:59] Right.
Margi Dehlin [01:45:00] Right. Or I never saw how, how do I work through hard things? Well, now, you know, by showing those things, you normalize it. And then they have some sense of like, I remember my mom actually, when. Which I think it's something. Yes. Right. It's Something. It doesn't mean they have to duplicate that, but it sure. Something.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:45:22] And it's beautiful to witness. I remember vividly a moment of being young when my own mom was. I didn't see my mom cry very often. I didn't, like, see that. That side to her very often. But there was this moment where my. It was my. I had, like, in a period of a few months, we had, like, several grandparents die. And I remember walking by my mom's door, and I could hear her in her room, and she was probably in prayer or just in a place of stillness, but she was crying. And it was like this painful but also beautiful experience for me to witness my mom being, like, human.
Margi Dehlin [01:45:57] Yeah.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:45:57] Being a human being.
Margi Dehlin [01:45:58] Yeah.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:45:59] And so my kids have seen me in that. In that way a lot, and. And also they've seen me through some, I think, past. Here's the thing about passion and that fire within. It can be like, this gift and this, like, thing that lights us up, and it can sometimes turn into, like, anger and rage and like. And. And that has. That has happened to me, but I'm just like. But that's part of it. It's okay. It's like what we do with it, you know?
Margi Dehlin [01:46:23] Right.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:46:23] It's okay to feel, though. It's like, okay to be angry.
Margi Dehlin [01:46:25] Yeah, yeah. Some things, you know, you should be angry about.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:46:30] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:46:31] Some things deserve some rage.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:46:32] How are we going to change things if we don't get angry, you know?
Margi Dehlin [01:46:35] Yeah, yeah. And how we process that and what we do with that. Yeah, yeah.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:46:39] But we have to learn how to. Healthy fight, you know, I don't think I was doing healthy fighting in my marriage. Healthy conflict, baby conflict. But we did our best, you know?
Margi Dehlin [01:46:49] Yeah. All right, well, take us into a little bit of rebuilding, if you don't mind, as you've kind of touched on these different areas now. And also with regard to kind of passion and fire, what is this? I kind of feel like we're. We're kind of always rebuilding in a way, in a good way. Right. If we're open to life and to sort of leaning into ourselves. But what has. What have some of those kind of pillars of rebuilding looked like for you?
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:47:23] I love that and I. I love how you said it's. I. I think we want to think, like, it's going to take me this many years to rebuild my life. Like, we just keep going through these things, you know, and, like, the rebuild is never done. Sometimes it all falls apart at once, you know, and then. But. But, like, things are Always happening. And so it's like, developing the skills to always be rebuilding, you know?
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:47:45] Yeah, I think. I think my. My rebuilding has really started with me learning to date myself, learning to be by myself. You know, I was always around people for so many years and really, like, tapped into that. If you talk to people from my past, like, I was an extrovert, I was outgoing, I was social, I was involved.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:48:09] And I really needed to get to know myself. And so part of my rebuilding was, like, just going on walks by myself, going to yoga, trying something new that none of my friends or, you know, that that was my thing. And then I got to meet all these new people, starting to learn and grow by myself. Not like in a class setting, in church or whatever, but, like, learning and, like, asking myself what I was interested in and what I was curious about. And yeah, just, like, learning to be by myself and learning that, like, I actually kind of like being by myself. Like, I.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:48:48] Why are we calling ourselves extroverts and introverts? Like, maybe I'm both, and maybe I'm just ready to, like, be with myself more. And so I think that was beautiful because I think I. I needed to, like, rebuild my confidence. And so learning to, like, be by myself and get to know myself and do things that I was passionate about, do things I wanted to do, not because somebody else wanted me to do them. You know, like, doing something because I wanted to do it. Felt. Has felt like a part of my rebuilding is just. Just.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:49:24] Just being there for me and learning to love me and. And that is always a work in progress. Right? Like, every day for me, insecurities come up, I feel confident, and then I feel. It's like this whole. It's just part of this life, but. But rebuilding kind of a confidence in myself and really getting to know myself. And the. The beauty about having sort of like a clean slate, like a new start is that then you. You have to, like, know who you are and figure out who you are and. And make decisions about your future. And so for me, I knew that, you know, I was.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:50:05] I was wanting to learn and grow and finish an education in some sort of a way. And so. But I. But like, I am. I am a different kind of learner. We all are. Right. Like, there's not one way to learn, but, like, I know that my brain works a little differently. First of all, it works differently now than it did years ago, and. And. And I am curious about things in life that I wasn't curious about before, so starting to learn about things that. That I'm curious about has been a part of kind of rebuilding a relationship with myself.
Margi Dehlin [01:50:39] Yes. This is all amazing. Identity rebuilding.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:50:44] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:50:44] Like the questions and you leaning into exploration and curious. And it reminds me of that chosen thing. Except now you're not dependent on someone else choosing you. You're choosing you.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:50:57] Yes, that's it. And I think for so much of my life, I wanted to be. Whether it was like, the romantic young girl that wanted, like, the boy to come carry her away or like, someone to see me dancing and think I was a good dance. Like, whatever it was that I. How, in whatever way I wanted to be seen, it was like, no, now I just want to, like, I want to choose me. I want to, like, choose me and learn to love me. And, like, I am the only person that will be with me the rest of my life. So when all is said and done, I don't know who I will be with, but I will always be with me.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:51:29] So, like, I want to like me and I want to love me. And so that's been a big part of my rebuilding is just rebuilding, like, a relationship with myself and. And realizing that, like, I am a passionate woman and I have that fire within, and it's okay to just, like, choose me and, and, and let myself shine and let myself, you know, take up a little bit of space in this world. That's okay to do that. And in fact, it's good because when we do that, when we choose us, then we teach our children that they can choose them first and that they can love who they are.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:52:11] I. I hope that's. That's what it's doing. You know, I hope that by choosing us, we. We give our children some sort of a roadmap because we're not giving them the one we had. We're giving them something different and they can take it. Take and do what they want with it.
Margi Dehlin [01:52:27] Yeah. It's kind of like twofold. Right. By choosing us, we get to live the life and beauty we choose. Yeah. Which we deserve. Just straight up. Right. And then. Yeah. The second is sort of like that hopefully our children get to see us living a life that we feel for and love. And I just think children. I don't think children want parents doing the right thing. Being miserable. Right.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:52:58] So true.
Margi Dehlin [01:52:58] Or living up to expectations, but having no joy. Yes. And no connection.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:53:04] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:53:04] I don't think children thrive.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:53:06] No.
Margi Dehlin [01:53:06] In scenarios like that. Married, not married. Partnered, not part. You know what I mean? So. So you are. It sounds like. So we've talked a Little bit about identity and you rebuilding a relationship with yourself. How about, do you want to touch on kind of the, the career or learning aspect, what you've been doing or. Sure. Okay.
Rebuilding Identity and Becoming a Single Mother
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:53:31] Yeah. So about a year and a half ago, I was faced with, you know, the realization that like, now I'm going to be a single mom. I'm going to have to like, figure something out for my future and. But I wanted it to be something that I, that I really loved. And so I.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:53:55] One thing led to the next. I was just doing a little bit of research and I came upon something called yoga therapy. And I was like, what, what's this? I was intrigued by it. I started kind of asking around in the yoga community and surprisingly, like, a lot of people didn't really know what it was. So that kind of scared me a little bit because I was like, what's this thing that I'm super intrigued by?
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:54:15] But I felt kind of called to this, this, this, this training and so I decided to just go for it. And I actually talked to Kelly about it and he was super supportive. He wanted to support, support me, you know, finding my way and I talk to my kids about it and talk to another special person in my life who's in my life about it, who
Margi Dehlin [01:54:38] will come up shortly in another rebuilding pillar.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:54:41] Did I just go there? Just kidding. Shoot, can't go back now. I'm just kidding. So anyways, I was kind of feeling like I wanted to learn and grow. This idea of going back to school and studying something kind of different study stood out to me and so I decided to go for it. I decided to jump in and to do it. And, and it's been about a year, just over a year. I'm about halfway into the program, two to three year commitment.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:55:08] And I'm studying all the things. I'm studying about the body, learning anatomy, I am learning physiology, I'm studying the brain, I'm learning about meditation and you know, all of the things that go under the umbrella of yoga, which are so many. And I'm, I'm just learning and growing. I'm learning how to be a student again, which has been challenging in its own way, learning how to learn again, being a part of, of something bigger than me.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:55:38] And you know, I have, like, I have a passion for this. I have like really high hopes. Like, I really want to integrate this, this into my life and into the lives of those I love. But I also, you know, I don't know what's going to come of all of this. And, but I do know this. I do know that I'm doing something that I want to do with my life and I'm choosing something that I'm passionate about and it makes the learning process fun. And even though it's challenging, it's like, but I'm choosing it. It's coming from my heart. I'm choosing it. And that feels really good to like, choose something for me.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:56:17] So that's where I am with sort of rebuilding my career. And I am. Yeah. And I should say in the, in the process. When I, before I had the job loss, I was doing yoga and okay. I decided to do a teacher training. That was my first kind of initial, you know, But I didn't do it because I wanted to be a yoga teacher. I like did it because I just thought it would be like a two week long, empowering like thing for me. So I did it for that reason. And then when the job loss happened, I decided to start teaching. And so with that, that led to where I am now. And that's kind of all how that's come together.
Margi Dehlin [01:56:52] Yeah. So you've worked as a yoga teacher too?
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:56:55] Yes, yes, yes.
Margi Dehlin [01:56:57] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:56:58] Within, within kind of a, the Mormon tradition, there's this idea that the brethren, the church leaders have all the wisdom or the scriptures, the Mormon scriptures have all the truth and that the, the gospel has everything. What's it like to kind of step outside that box and to start seeing other. You mentioned earlier in today's interview kind of feeling a little bit gross about the idea that you were better as a Mormon than, than a Muslim woman. What's it like to kind of step into the world of wisdom and knowledge completely unrelated to Mormonism contrasted with the worldview that we had, that the church had all the wisdom? What's that been like?
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:57:44] Yeah, I love that question because I think, and I think here's the thing is that when we come out of Mormonism, we are drawn to like different ideas and things. You know, like I was, I was really, at first I really wanted to like stay within Christianity and, and then I was more drawn to secular Buddhism and I've been drawn to different things.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:58:03] I think the difference is that now, like, now I'm, I'm just choosing like, now I'm choosing to see the world through a new lens and, and, and not through one lens, but through like many lenses and the acceptance of like, there's so many ways to do this life, there's not one way. And anytime we believe that there's that one way of doing things and I know even within Mormonism there's like a myriad of ways you can do Mormonism. So many people do it differently, and it's beautiful. Right. But, but also there are so many ways out there that we can do life. And I just feel like by limiting myself to that one, like, paradigm, I'm like, not able to, to, to just be as curious and, and as, as growth oriented is when I'm, when that's not like my, my lens of seeing the world.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:58:55] And I like being able to like, see things. I like the idea of, like, there's not. There's like a few things that are right and wrong. Right. But like, I don't like this whole idea of like, black and white, right and wrong, left and right. It's like, no, there's like a whole myriad of, of gray and color and like richness and dimension in between that and, and they all have their beauty. And I love being able to see the, the world in that way rather than like, this is the way.
Margi Dehlin [01:59:23] Yeah.
Holly Ashton Wallin [01:59:24] This is the path. And if that's the path for someone else, that's beautiful. It was for me for many, many years. And I really, truly, like, am grateful. Here's the thing. I, I am grateful for my life and for my marriage, even though it was hard. I'm grateful for religion. I'm grateful for all of those things because number one, they did, they did help me to build, build these, these ideas of work and service and love and commitment. I'm really glad I had that. But also they are like, questioning those things is what has allowed me to like, expand and grow. And if I wouldn't have had, like sometimes we say I would love to just have been born with like, no religion.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:00:12] No. But like, the fact that I was born in that and that I, that I, that I did that meant I came to a place where I got to question it and I got to like, actually have to say, am I right or am I wrong? Or is there like a whole lot of in between and, and that, that going through that experience, whatever you want to call it, like, awakening, rebirthing, questioning, whatever. It's like a really beautiful part of the human experience, and I think we should all have it. And one way or another, I think it should be part of like, liking the word should.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:00:43] Like, we should, but it's like, matures us. It, like there's a growth to it that happens when you have to question everything you've ever known and, and just ask those questions. There's just like a maturity and a wisdom that Comes from having to do that.
Margi Dehlin [02:00:59] Yeah.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:00:59] And so I love that I had the things that got me to the place where I had to question them.
Margi Dehlin [02:01:04] Yes.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:01:05] And then take some risks.
Margi Dehlin [02:01:06] Yeah. That reminds me of nihilism. Nihilism. That's such a beautiful.
John Dehlin [02:01:11] Also Richard Rohr's first and second half of life.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:01:14] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:01:15] There's a really good book called Falling Upward where Richard Rohr talks about. This is not a Mormon, uniquely Mormon experience. No matter what you were raised in, there's something developmentally normal and healthy about losing your faith in whatever you were raised in and then having the opportunity to rebuild. Kind of like Jesus said, being born again. Right. I mean, not to make it Christian, but you were kind of born again.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:01:42] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:01:42] Maybe that's what Jesus meant when he said being born again.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:01:45] Yeah. And maybe that's what those messages in the scriptures are. They're just. They're just messages and they're just parables. And, like, when we get so caught up in the. In the, like, literality. Literality. Is that a word? And the literality of it all, that's where the problems are. But when we can just look at all these ideas as, like, you know, ideas and messages, and Jesus was saying. And Buddha was saying them, and everyone's saying. I'm like, they're. They're all part of the human experience. And who's to say one way is better than the other way?
Margi Dehlin [02:02:16] You know, so rebuilding. Do you want to touch on any other areas? We could go into parenting, if you want, and do an update on that parenting area, if you want. You had talked about originally control. If you had to kind of say in this rebuilding process right now, where you're more leaning in now, if it's not control. Yeah.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:02:45] The parenting thing is. It's like, really is the. It's like, the hardest thing for me, but, like, the best thing for me, you know, Like, I. My girls are, like. They are. They are so passionate. They are, like, passionate human beings. And it's like, what I love about them, and it's also really, really hard. It's what makes parenting so hard is these children that have these, like, opinions and this. This, like, fire within them and this, like, you know, and they're all different and they're wanting to fight you on things, and. And, you know, I have sort of these patterns of, like, wanting them to, like, wanting to parent a certain way, but then realizing that.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:03:30] That the more I, like, try to push and. And, like, control, like, the less my relationship with them is. Is. Is genuine and real and Authentic. And. And I have someone in my life that is. Just come into my life when I've been. Been single parenting. His name is Dave, and he has. He has helped me to.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:03:53] To see parenting from a new lens. He has helped me to see my children and to recognize what they need in. In. In a lens that I can't often see as the mom. He has so helped me in that way. You guys are beautiful examples to me of parenting. The way I watch you do it, the way I hear about you talk about your children, it's. It's so beautiful to me. And, and what you realize is that, like, we're all in this together and that even if we don't have, like, a specific road guide or a map as to how to, like, do this parenting thing, like, we're all here to help each other and, and learn from each other.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:04:34] And. And so I. I'm inspired by other parents who are just trying to. To figure out how to do this thing, you know, we call parenting that is challenging and, And. But I think that what I really want more than anything right now is, you know, my kids might have some issues when they get older with some of the ways I've done things. Like, I've made a ton of mistakes on this journey. I have. But, like, I. I want them to have seen their mom, like, fighting for what she believed in. And I want them to feel, like, loved no matter what choice they make, no matter which path they choose or don't choose.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:05:15] Like, I want them to know that they are loved and they are part of me and that they are part of their father and that they are wanted in this world and that they belong. And I want them to just find their way. And. And it's hard to watch them all struggle. It's. It's hard to watch them all start struggle. We want to protect our kids. We want to, like, give them safety and we want to, like, give them a map to help them, but there's only so much of that that we can do, and I think we have to let go of a little bit of that.
Margi Dehlin [02:05:43] Yeah.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:05:43] Control and that wanting and just letting them be who they are meant to be. Because my daughters now are turning out to be much different than I thought they were going to be when I had the lens of Mormonism. They are turning to be out very different. They are turning out to be very different. And it's beautiful to witness. You know, the thing that was scary to me has become beautiful to witness. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:06:10] I'll just say One quick thing, because I was able to visit you in your home and see you with your girls and I just. I. One thing that's really remarkable is just how empowered they are. I feel like their voices, they use their voices, which is rarer, I think, when you look at tween and teen girls and how they're socialized. And I think it's refreshing and amazing to kind of see that sense of. Kind of who they are, that they will say their feelings and what they think and they're forming opinions and they stick up for themselves and they advocate for themselves. But the other thing is too, is as a mom, witnessing you really listen, really be curious.
Margi Dehlin [02:07:01] I see you be curious about them and I see you really see them, you know, and those things I think in parenting just can't be really overvalued, you know. So anyway, a little thing on parenting and so with regard to. Do you want to talk about personal relationship then? And a little bit about sexuality, that rebuilding kind of process. Do you want to or you don't also?
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:07:31] Yeah, okay, I think. And I'll just. Thank you for what you said about my kids. Thank you for what you said about that. That touched my heart. Yeah. So, you know, learning to date again when you're in your 40s is challenging. And the idea of it at first, and I didn't. When Kelly and I separated, I did not date for a period of time because I really just felt like I needed to like, get to know myself. So I didn't date for a while. And once I started dating, I. My eyes were opened to the world of, of dating in this day and age.
Margi Dehlin [02:08:09] It's.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:08:09] It's very eye opening.
Margi Dehlin [02:08:11] The world of Tinder.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:08:12] The world of yes or. And I. Yeah, it was, it was, it was a journey and it was also like, I had some wonderful dating experiences and also some experiences of like learning like things that I had things. You learned some hard things about yourself. You know, you learned that you might have some attachment issues or you might have some like, fear of rejection or like all the issues start to come up when you start dating again in, in your 40s, as, as a grown woman. You know, it's this whole new way of getting to know yourself. But I think that was an important time for me.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:08:51] And you know, I don't think that the path of, of. I don't think everyone needs to like date a ton before they get married, but I do think it's helpful if you want to get married. I think you should date different people first. And you Know, I think that, that I didn't have a lot of dating experience when I was young. I had some, I had a decent amount, but, but not a lot. So the world of dating was, was kind of challenging for me at first, but I, I, I discovered, what I discovered was that like, I think part of the problem when I was married with my.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:09:28] Not only was I suppressing my voice, but I was suppressing this part of myself that this, this like, sensuality, this, this sexuality I didn't like, I knew when I was young I had it, but I didn't really know how to name it back then. And it, it became scary and when I was married and it just wasn't like what I expected. And so I really suppressed that part of myself and being able to make choices and as an adult woman and kind of tap back into that part of myself and to realize that, that I am a sensual person and that I do have, like, strong desires and feelings and that is a beautiful part of, of who I am and that does not need to be suppressed or hidden.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:10:18] You know, And I. We've all had like, so many conversations with our girlfriends right about like, you know, oh, my husband just wants to have sex and I don't want to do it. It's like, it's like the ongoing conversation and, and it's like, yeah, but like, should it be that way? Should it be this way? That, like, women are this way and men are this way? Like, I just think that that is not true. And, and the fact that we suppress those parts of ourselves because of the messaging that we give each other.
Margi Dehlin [02:10:46] More virtuous. Maybe. Yes, we're seen as.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:10:49] Yeah, maybe, maybe there is a sense of like, we are more virtuous or we're like, we're just too busy for that. We just have so much going on, you know, and to be able to, to be. I'll say this. I am in a relationship right now that is beautiful. And, and where I feel like parts of myself that were suppressed and I withheld for so long are able to be explored and nurtured. And, and a lot of that is just about, like, slowing down, like slowing down the process. Whether it's slowing down in our busy work lives or slowing down, you know, love making or whatever it is, there is a part of us that we tap into that that is beautiful and that comes alive and, and that is full of this passion. And yeah, I'm feeling that right now. And it, it feels good.
Margi Dehlin [02:11:48] Yes, I love that. Integrating all parts.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:11:53] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:11:54] Of ourselves into kind of wholeness as opposed to that sort of. Yeah, pack it away.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:11:59] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:12:00] Stick it down in the basement of our lives. Shut the door.
John Dehlin [02:12:05] Live in your box.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:12:06] Yes.
Margi Dehlin [02:12:07] Yeah. Because no real good comes from that. It just reemerges in ways that usually hurt us or relationships long term. So, yeah, I love that integration. And I do feel like that is it. That's a huge part of the transition process, I think is honestly going down into. If our lives are like a house and we kind of live on the main floor, it's like when we're ready and maybe with a therapist, even you go down with the flashlight and you go into the basement and you look at what you hid and you look at the things that you, you know, that other self that you buried so that you could have the self that was lovable or the approved of self. But I feel like we all have to kind of do that work of like, okay, I'm ready. Let's go down and let's. Let's bring all those pieces up to the main level.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:12:59] Right. You know, and I think what I thought for so many years was like, like, you have to. What. You have to choose parts of yourself. And I just decided most of the time I'll just choose the good, hard working. Show up Holly instead of like, what about the Holly that's like, got this kind of wildness and like, like weirdness and like, what about her? She still exists and. And there needs to be room for all of it. Why do we have to choose like a box of who we are? And it feels good to. To. One day I feel like one woman, and the next day I'm like a whole other woman. It feels good. And sometimes it feels a little scary to. To know that there's all these parts to us that exist and they're all within all of us, but they're all there and they're all to be discovered and embraced.
Margi Dehlin [02:13:45] That's right. And watered water.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:13:47] Yes, yes.
Margi Dehlin [02:13:49] Beautiful. Beautiful. Are there parts to the rebuilding process that you want that seemed hard, difficult? Like, did you find certain parts of. And I know you're still doing it, and we're kind of all in process. But have there. Were there certain barriers or things that you found out that they just kind of emerged that you had to work through, or has it felt quite organic to you? This part?
Learning to Trust Again After Major Life Change
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:14:16] Definitely things I've had to work through. Number one, trust. Trust. I would say learning not only how to trust myself again and to trust that voice, but also learning how to trust people. People. Because people hurt people we hurt each other. And while I feel differently about some of the ways that I was hurt or betrayed or whatever now than I did then, I just think life is so complicated that, that, But I've had to learn how to trust again. And that is not something I'm like, a master of yet. I'm still leaning into the fact that I can still be a bit protective and a bit guarded and a bit untrusting because I do sometimes have some fears around.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:15:10] But when you put your trust into someone or something and then that trust is broken, like, I have some fears around letting myself be in that place again of, of, of trusting. But, like, what else can we do but to trust? You know, like to go around our whole lives, like, not being able to trust feels, feels a little bit sad for me. So, so I'm having to learn trust. I'm having to learn about boundaries. That's a challenging one for me because my, like, innate nature is just, just be like, we're all here. Like, like, be open and let's just, let's just all share in this journey together.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:15:52] But, you know, I'm not sure that everybody, everybody needs to be in our circle all of the time. And, and, and boundarying people that are really beautiful people is really hard for me because I don't like to, to like, cut people out. I don't like to, I don't like to boundary people. It doesn't feel very good. But sometimes it's just about, like, this isn't about them. This is about me. This is about me needing to have some space away from all the voices so that I can, like, hear me, you know, so that piece has been, been really important. And then I would say the, the last thing that comes to mind is when I was married to Kelly, my, I was really close to his family, had great relationships with his family.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:16:40] His family was there. His family was different than mine. They were quite a bit more orthodox than my family was. And I think I sort of, like, leaned into that a little bit. My parents were a little more neutral on things, gave us a lot of freedom when we were young. Kelly's family's a little more orthodox that way, and there was a part of me that liked that kind of rigidity. So I, I, I, I grew to be close with them and, and had close relationships with them. But they had this nickname for me. We used to travel with them and, and they had this nickname.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:17:09] They called me Planny Planning. That was my nickname because I was like the planner in the family. Like, everything for Me needed to be a plan. I like plans. The church worked for me because it's a plan. It's the plan of salvation. I like plans. You know, Planny Plany was my name.
Margi Dehlin [02:17:24] I hear that on a deep level. This is like our souls. Yes.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:17:29] Probably connect on this totally. And I still love the safety of a plan. And I think plans are important. If you don't have a plan, yes, you gotta have a plan. But there is, I am trying to tap into more of an open hearted way of living more of a, like trusting in what is to come and just letting things flow naturally instead of me fighting so hard to have my plan and my, you know, expectations. Just letting go a little bit of expectations, opening my heart, letting go of some plans, being and it opens. It brings this more like spontaneous, playful, creative side to me out, which I really love and need that side. So it's like learning how to balance that, that worker and that planner and that needing some rigidity with like the free kind of open, curious Holly. It's like learning how to mesh all that together.
Margi Dehlin [02:18:26] Yes. I so relate to that. And I know for me, because I am right there with you with plan plans. That a lot of that was about trust. Actually. The, the plan existed because I didn't feel like things would work out without a plan. Like if left to my own, you know, devices, without the work hard and have a plan, well, I won't get anywhere then. Like, I won't. Then I, you know, who am I without that? I need that, that part. So I've, I've learned that that spontaneity, leaning into being, being, being open to, you know, life as it's, as it kind of happens is actually an act of trust.
Margi Dehlin [02:19:10] It's an act of saying, you know, on some level I'll be okay. On some level I know you know, that and also worthiness too, where I don't have to hustle my way through. Right. I can let things be and just enjoy. Right. And savor.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:19:29] I love that there is a safety and a trust that comes with planning. And then also sometimes you gotta just let it go. Let it go a little bit. Let go of control and just, yeah. Be with what is.
Margi Dehlin [02:19:41] Yep.
John Dehlin [02:19:42] Yeah, I'm gonna start calling you Plenty. Plenty.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:19:45] This is such a, like the nickname. It's. It was, it was like an endearing name they called me and Kelly called me that and yeah, it was, it was kind of endearing. But I don't want to be so planning, Planning, be a little more open.
Margi Dehlin [02:19:57] That's what John got from the interview, he's like, now I got.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:20:00] Now I have a nickname. That's all he cares about.
Margi Dehlin [02:20:02] But, but you've got Halls, John.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:20:07] Halls was the nickname my high school friends gave me. And I, I, and my, actually my, my in laws called me that. That was. Yeah, that was a endearment, too.
John Dehlin [02:20:16] Hall's planning plenty.
Moments of Joy and Empowerment in the Rebuild
Margi Dehlin [02:20:19] Anyway, are we there moments of joy and empowerment that you've had so far in your rebuilding process? And, and if so, you know, what are a few that really stand out?
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:20:33] Oh, so many. And, you know, the thing about the moments of joy is that sometimes they can feel just like, little glimpses. Like, oftentimes they're just like the smaller moments that we miss because we're not paying attention. But I have come to find that for me, that the moments of joy rather than looking for, like.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:20:57] So, like, Kelly and I used to plan trips and like, the, the, the ultimate, like, moment was going to be when we went on the trip and we were going to have this great trip. And then you go on the trip and you're kind of like, well, that was fun, but, like, let's plan the next trip, you know, and, and now I'm leaning a little more into like, rather than like, orchestrating these, these moments and these ideas of. It's more about, like, just being present and being wherever you are and noticing. For me, moments tend to come up when I'm walking, when I'm in nature, I will just stand there and I will just like, listen to what birds sound like and I'll think about.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:21:42] The birds are like, singing a song, going about their day, and it's beautiful and, and noticing, like, the way that the waves sort of crash on the sea and how those, those waves are like us. They're like, they're like us where we are. The ocean. The ocean is us. Just being in nature and being in, in the trees and the mountains and feeling the wind sitting in the sunlight. Like, my moments of meaning are not as, like, big, but they're just like small, everyday kind of like tiny little miracles that show up for me and they show up when I choose to, to pay attention and just be present.
Margi Dehlin [02:22:29] Yeah. Yeah. Are there any resources that kind of come to mind when it comes to rebuilding and, you know, all that you've experienced and there are certain things that come to mind as being particularly helpful to you that you want to share?
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:22:51] Yeah, I think for me, learning how to meditate has been really important. Just learning how to take some time each day and, you know, they're like, meditation can. Can look so many different ways. There's like, so many ways we can do it, right?
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:23:11] But taking time each day to just sit with myself and breathe and let the voices that are always going just kind of subside and quiet, just so I can. Can feel what it means to just be present and be alive. So I think that meditation for me has been. And it's a skill, right? It's like, it's not easy, and some days it works better than others. And I think if we're going into meditation looking to have, like, Looking to have these, like, transcendent experiences, that's not typically what it's like. It's typically just like these more subtle kind of moments of.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:23:50] Of going within. So meditation has been a tool for me. I think gratitude, journaling is a great tool. Just like trying to have an attitude of. Of gratitude, being appreciative of the people in your life, the things that you have. It's so easy to fear loss and to fear, you know, and to, like, feel ungrateful or to feel bitter or to feel, like, angry that we got gyps or that the life that we planned didn't work out, you know, and so having time to just, like, be grateful and to focus on that is. Has been important for me.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:24:30] Books, I mean, when I. There's so many books that have been resources to me, it's so hard for me to, like, name, you know, I mean, I've loved just diving into so many different paths of, Of. Of reading and literature. And let me think.
Margi Dehlin [02:24:49] What about. Do you want to talk about yoga snacks? Because I could.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:24:52] Oh, yeah, that's. Thank you.
Margi Dehlin [02:24:54] Yeah.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:24:55] So yoga snacks. So yoga snacks. Oftentimes when we, you know, when we, when we decide we want to start, like, a yoga practice, it can feel like, well, I don't have an hour, hour and a half to give of my day. Like what? Like, yoga is not just about, like, going into a hot class with a bunch of people and getting on your mat and moving. Yoga is about a lot of little things that are just little mindful ways, like little, little things we can do during our day that don't take a lot of time. And so for me, yoga snacks look like, you know, going outside in the sunshine and taking my shoes off and just putting my feet in the grass and just standing there and closing my eyes, just breathing.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:25:37] I call it earthing. Just taking a moment in. In the sunlight. A yoga snack would be maybe when you're feeling like. Oftentimes when I'm studying I will get. My brain will just get overwhelmed. My brain can just get so overwhelmed. So I'll do alternate nostril breathing. I'll sit down and I'll breathe through one nostril and then through the other and I'll alternate nostrils, which balances the brain and helps with focus. And so that's a little yoga snack. I use just little types of breath work. Getting into a pose to, to get into your body, like laying on the ground in Shavasana, just taking a moment to just rest, to just be anything you can do to get you out of the thinking mind and just into your body or into the present moment.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:26:26] Those are little yoga snacks that, that, that you can do. And those, those are, those are things that I have to do all the time because life just happens, you know.
Margi Dehlin [02:26:37] Life does happen. It does happen. Yes.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:26:40] Did we go really long? Are we going really long?
John Dehlin [02:26:43] We went perfect.
Margi Dehlin [02:26:44] Oh, good.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:26:46] I got lost in, in the conversation a bit.
John Dehlin [02:26:50] We went the perfect amount of time and who knows where we go from here. Margi's in. Margi's in church.
Holly Before and After Finding Her Fire Within
Margi Dehlin [02:27:01] Well, the last, the last sort of question is kind of if we looked at the Holly before and particularly maybe with regard to kind of passion and fire within. Right. Kind of pre transition, and then we looked at you now, what's the difference? How would you talk about that?
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:27:23] I think, I think when I, when I almost like, I kind of look at my life in like, almost like three stages. So there's like the years of being a young girl and adolescent and like young life and kind of who I was then. And then there's kind of like this woman I became during my marriage and career, career building and you know, supporting my husband at the time, through school. There's kind of the Holly I became then and, and now there's kind of this sort of like.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:27:57] I think. I think at first when I was rebuilding, I was like kind of pushing away that, that, that, that, that second Holly, that like, part of me. And now I'm kind of just in a place where I, I really am trying to bring these two parts of me together. This, like, young, youthful nature loving, open, curious, simple girl with like this hard worker and this planner and this woman that's devoted and so trying to bring those two parts of myself together and, and, and really just like become all of it and not feel like I have to, you know, I have to be one way or another.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:28:38] That I'm just kind of growing into this idea that like, we are all, all of the things and, and There is a, there is a maturity I think that comes with, with just growing into and also accepting who we are. Like accepting parts of ourselves that are hard for us to accept. Like we can't change certain genetics, we can't change certain things. And we spend so much time, time trying to change.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:29:08] I think change is such a beautiful thing. And it's also like we fight so hard to change things that we don't really need to change about ourselves and then we're not really changing the things that we should, you know? So like.
Margi Dehlin [02:29:22] Yeah, yeah.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:29:24] I just, I just really. I just want to live my life with a sense of gratitude for where I came from and for what that did for me. And also like it served its purpose and I'm grateful for it. But like now I'm gonna do it differently and I'm gonna listen to me and I might make some choices that might end up not being the best for me. Sometimes we do that, right?
Margi Dehlin [02:29:53] Human. Yeah.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:29:54] Called being human. I don't really know for sure. Always like what is the best thing. But I'm doing my best and I'm just trying to live with a sense of trusting in myself and, and, and fighting for what I believe in. And yeah. Kind of coming back to that like fighter in me and the lover in me and the dreamer in me and just letting her be all of, all of, all of that.
Margi Dehlin [02:30:19] Letting her live.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:30:20] Letting her live. Yeah, yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:30:23] Yeah. That's what living a life on fire is.
John Dehlin [02:30:27] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:30:28] The fire within. Right?
John Dehlin [02:30:30] Yeah.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:30:30] And I, I had this moment this morning. I, I woke up early this morning and was a little, a little bit in my head and nervous about today and I just kind of just laid there for a moment and, and I, I put my hands on my heart and I felt like this like warmth and this like, it wasn't like this bursting like fire. It was like this warmth and the safety. Like just, just, just like live with this, like, just live with this, this open heartedness and this like love within you and this. Just go into today with that and go into every day with that, that little fire that's always there and we, we gotta nourish it and we've gotta like, we've gotta recognize it and nourish it and. But let ourselves just live with that sense of passion and that sense of purpose and, and
Margi Dehlin [02:31:22] yeah, I love that. And trust it.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:31:24] And trust it.
Margi Dehlin [02:31:25] Yes.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:31:26] Trust it.
Margi Dehlin [02:31:27] Yeah. Beautiful. Well, it's been a joy to witness you. Witness me. Look at you. Did we do it? I feel like you did it.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:31:39] Did it. I think we did it.
Margi Dehlin [02:31:41] How you feeling over there, John? How's it been?
John Dehlin [02:31:44] Delightful. Really powerful and wise and graceful and whole.
Margi Dehlin [02:31:54] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:31:55] Thank you. Thank you, Holly.
Margi Dehlin [02:31:57] Yeah. Thank you. We honor you. We honor your story, and it's a joy to witness you. Thank you for being here and thank
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:32:06] you for being in my life. I love you. I really looked at today as like, a conversation with my friends, and you are my friends beyond all of this. And that was. That was a good way to get through today, just to know I'm in the space of my friends. And I love you both very much. I love you all very much in this room. All of you in this room.
Margi Dehlin [02:32:27] Everyone in this room.
John Dehlin [02:32:28] Even Jen.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:32:29] Jen. I met Jen today. She is so awesome and talented and creative. She's amazing. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:32:37] Shout out to Dave. Dave's here.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:32:39] Dave's here.
John Dehlin [02:32:40] We love you, Dave. This is the same Dave Biesinger that we interviewed on Thrive Stories, episode one.
Margi Dehlin [02:32:44] My. Yes. Who was just dear and beautiful and inspiring on episode one of Thrive Stories. Living or no? The good life.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:32:55] The good life.
Margi Dehlin [02:32:56] The good life.
John Dehlin [02:32:57] That was a great.
Margi Dehlin [02:32:58] You can check that out.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:32:59] And living with Dave is the good life. I don't technically live with him, but he's in my life, and it's beautiful to have him in my life. He's amazing.
Margi Dehlin [02:33:09] And when you can, you share space.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:33:10] Yes, when we can, we share space. We do our best.
Margi Dehlin [02:33:13] Yes. Well, thank you again for joining us for Thrive Stories, and we hope you enjoyed this episode and happy, thriving. Until next time.
John Dehlin [02:33:23] Bye, everybody. Thanks, Holly.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:33:27] Bye, everyone.
Margi Dehlin [02:33:27] Thank you.
Holly Ashton Wallin [02:33:28] Thanks, John and Margi.
Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.
Join Margi and John for our next episode of Thrive Stories this coming Tuesday at noon (MST). Come listen and participate in the conversation as we talk to Holly Ashton Wallin. Holly will talk about the role of passion in her life, beginning as a young girl where she was a dreamer, a lover and a fighter. She will take us through how she lost herself along the way–and with that, her passion. Holly eventually came to experience the loss of her marriage, her faith, her career path, and her health. Witness how Holly rebuilt her identity and her life after loss by connecting back to that fire within. What does it mean to live “a life on fire?” Join us to find out!
Thrive Stories is a new podcast series where Margi (alongside John or Jenn) will be interviewing a member of the community twice per month. The interviews will be shorter (1-2 hours), story-based, but will be focused on a particular aspect of healing and growth AFTER a Mormon faith crisis (thus the THRIVE name). They will happen on Tuesdays at noon (MST). Some examples of areas of thriving include: Family Relationships, Healthy Boundaries, Finding Community, Finding Meaning/Purpose, Dealing with Grief/Death, Religion after Mormonism, Health Sexuality, Parenting, Improving Physical Health, Identity, Health Marriage/Relationships, Secular Spirituality, Word of Wisdom 2.0, and Women Finding Their Own Voice after Mormonism.
If you would like to nominate someone you know who would be a great candidate for a THRIVE interview, please nominate them (or yourself) here.
Show Notes:
- John Gottman – Marriage book- The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work
- Getting the Love You Want: A Guide for Couples: Third Edition
- Esther Perel – The State of Affairs: Rethinking Infidelity
- Brene Brown – Braving the Wilderness
- A New Earth – Eckhart Tolle
- Falling upward by Richard Rohr
- Mormon Stories Thrive interview with Dave
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One Response
Like…like…like…
Why can’t interviewees and at times, interviewers (Mormons?) speak definitively without inserting “like” into every friggin phrase? Why this constant hedge? “I was like, life was so busy?” (Was life busy or just “like” busy? Does one feel “like” safer or actually safer?) Similarly, is every experience a “kind of” experience?
It is difficult to listen to these excessive verbal ticks. Equivocation is one thing, but excessively tentative statements make me wonder if we really need, like, two hours to, like, tell, like, a story, kind of about, like, sort of, (otherwise) “you know”, what we’re talking about.
Please think about this. Practice with a buzzer. 🙏.
This broadcast is profoundly important and courageous. So my one request/suggestion is to further boost those great production values with cleaner speech. (A pause with silence is also moving). When you guys get rolling, you are beautifully articulate, spectacularly incisive and insightful. 👍