Introduction and Episode Overview

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 374

John Dehlin [00:00:05] Mormon Stories podcast is a production of the Open Stories Foundation. This podcast is also available in high definition video@YouTube.com MormonStories so we've talked about how wonderful your relationship was with Heather, how she was a gift, how it was magical. And I remember you using a phrase where whenever you would have your emotional outbursts, you would say, I'll be here when you get back, or I'll be here when you're done.

Eldon Kartchner [00:00:41] I'll be here. Yeah.

Heather's Cancer Diagnosis and Early Impact

John Dehlin [00:00:45] So let's talk about when that became threatened.

Eldon Kartchner [00:00:52] Well, so we were married in 2001 and I started grad school. So this is, I think, just part of segmenting into this story. Grad school created a lot of cognitive dissonance for me because it was truly, fully the first time that I was spending a lot of quality time with non LDS people. And they were awesome, awesome, awesome, awesome sauce. Just the, just such quality, quality, incredible, amazing people who I just fell in love with. And some of them were gay and most of them were women. And this, this created a lot of dissonance with church ideas. And I was already trying to figure out how do I make sense of I got to get married, but I really am only attracted to every man except for Heather trying to make sense of that. I'm thinking a lot. And so that started me heavily into a spiritual journey of trying to explore that. And my way of exploring that was to. I kind of clung to this belief that if all truth is circumscribed into one whole, I just didn't have enough truth. I just need to know more. I don't know why this piece is true, but that's just because I just don't know all the stuff around it. So I just need more information. So I started really gathering as much information as I could.

John Dehlin [00:02:31] It's very dangerous, by the way, as

Eldon Kartchner [00:02:33] you will come to see. Yeah. And grad school, I think it's pretty, pretty common for people to feel like their mind starts getting blown open by grad school because you get a lot of great education about the way things are. And Heather loved watching this for me and me sharing all this information with her. And she's like, yeah. Because Heather really grew up with non member friends. She didn't have hardly any member friends. Her father was a bishop for 10 years and later in the state presidency. Her dad was a convert as an adult and married her mom, who reactivated herself as the only person active in her family when she was a teenager. I think her older brother might have been active, but they, so they just he was in the Air Force. They kind of moved around. They didn't have a lot of tradition. Like, I mean, Utah Trish. They're just. There just wasn't this cultural stuff that a lot of us seem to have a hard time with. Like, there's no bauble. I have the bauble. She had no bauble at all. She was really surrounded by the real world growing up and didn't get a lot of stuff. And when she was growing up and Saturdays, Warrior came out and people were into it, she was like, that's dumb.

John Dehlin [00:03:54] That's dumb, huh?

Eldon Kartchner [00:03:55] Yeah. And did you know she didn't have to listen to it on Sunday, so she never developed a taste for it. So, like, church music that I just loved, she was like, okay, some of it's really nice, not all of it. And as I began exploring and educating and trying to find things out, come 2005, I had started my private practice. So I finished grad school, started my private practice in doing couple and family counseling. And one day a week, I would drive from Denver down to Colorado Springs, which was an hour to practice down there because I would get referrals from LDS Social services there. And in so doing, I discovered the relatively new idea of podcasts at the time and first started with this American Life. But that's one hour long. It would get me there, and I wanted something to listen to. On the way back when I went searching for Mormon and I found you and went, oh. And after I listened the first time, I thought, jackpot. I mean, this is. This is good stuff. I was so excited by it. So I really. There's a lot of my personal journey that paralleled what I watched, what I think I watched you going through in terms of the moving in and out of your experience of testimony. Obviously, I'm not you, but I could really feel myself as the podcasts went from informational kind of into we should all stay into the whole why they stay thing. And, well, maybe everybody doesn't have to stay. I mean, I was really kind of following it that way. And I would come home to Heather and all of our relationship and. And I would tell her these, okay, you cannot believe this. Joseph Smith had this many wives and some of them were already married. And just stuff like this, lots of information because these podcasts were brilliant. And I'd share this with Heather. And she was like, that's dumb. Not as she's not dismissing me in any way. I'd just be like, you know this about the church. And she's like, I'm sorry, that's crazy. I don't believe that.

John Dehlin [00:06:21] So she wouldn't take any doctrine or teaching that was crazy. Any historical tidbit that didn't make sense to her. She would just say, that's not my Mormonism.

Eldon Kartchner [00:06:30] Which is exactly what she. She would say it in this way. Eldon, you and I grew up in different churches, completely different churches. We're only us, but we grew up in different churches, which was a great part of why she was who she was and could do what she did as a person. So I think that the journey that I was on, it fascinated her. But. And she was always with me wherever I was at and what I was believing or struggling with, I would share with her. And she would be like, yeah, okay, yeah, I'm with you. I really am with you. But usually it was. I was kind of stepping back from my absolute total believing. And when I would step back, I would always find that she was like, already here, you know, and we just were together about how we felt about things. So, yeah, there were times that I would talk to her and she'd go, okay, I didn't know that. But, yeah, it's disturbing. Okay, we don't believe that. In this whole interim, we decided it's time to start a family. A couple years after we were married, so bought a house. We had our first daughter, who is turning 8 in October here in 2012, and two years later had our second daughter, and two years later got pregnant with our son. So we're kind. And during this transition, this faith transition I was in, I call it a faith transition, as I was doing all of this Mormon studies and stunning stuff, I spent five years of that time as a gospel doctrine teacher in our ward. So I was using a lot of this information to go in and be like, let's not talk about the same old things. Let's talk about new information and new ways to look at the Scriptures. And, like, I can't say everyone, but lots and lots of people would come to me and say, oh, this is so great. I really love this. And these are helpful lessons because they're different from the thing we've heard our whole life. It's more information. And I'm thinking, this is all just goodness. Everybody needs more information. This. Get it out there. Yay, inoculation, Hooray. At the same time, getting a lot more liberal about not so sure that there really is anything wrong with being gay. Pretty happy about my life. Really not going to come out. I'm still homophobic. But I'm kind of thinking, all these people out here who are gay, that's really just fine. It might be just fine. That's in opposition to the church. So I'm feeling myself kind of pull these things apart into different directions and not being so, you know, absolute about things. And so that's. That's really where I was at in a place of going. I don't know. I still. I love this. I still really believe, but I don't really know a lot of stuff anymore. I know the church is true. Let's stick with that. Joseph Smith's prophetic church. True. But I don't know that we are really up on all of our revelation because the Lord might need to give us some more information about a whole lot of stuff these days. And it might surprise some people. This is kind of my liberal thinking. And so I was in a place of. I'm good, and certainly I was behaving. I wasn't doing bad at the time, like, you know, sitting. Wasn't saying there was nothing wrong. It was very faithful to have her. It's all really good. We're very close and connected. And then we had our son Kai In August of 2008, and eight weeks later, Heather was diagnosed with stage three triple negative breast cancer.

John Dehlin [00:10:21] What is that for those who don't know?

Eldon Kartchner [00:10:25] Well, essentially there's different kinds of breast cancer, and they classify them in a way to help identify what's going to be most helpful to treat it. There are some particular types of breast cancer that are really responsive to particular specific treatments and types of chemotherapy and chemotherapy with additional treatments that might really, really work. There's actually some breast cancers that, if you get it, you really hope you have this kind because we can treat it, and there's a great likelihood that it will be treated and it will not be fatal for you. The chances are really great for you. Triple negative breast cancer cannot be treated by any of the known treatments to this day. Still, they just can do some traditional chemotherapy, but there's no specialized drugs for it, which makes it. The doctor tried to say this is a good thing because it's the hottest ticket out there. Every drug company on the planet wants to have the specialized drug that works with triple negative because it's the worst way.

John Dehlin [00:11:34] That's a nice way of saying it.

Eldon Kartchner [00:11:37] In addition to that, so, you know, we have this brand new. Brand brand new baby.

John Dehlin [00:11:42] What year is this?

Eldon Kartchner [00:11:43] 2008.

John Dehlin [00:11:44] 2008?

Eldon Kartchner [00:11:45] Yeah, in October of 2008. Okay, October 8th. So she was given this diagnosis this

John Dehlin [00:11:56] is the same year Proposition 8 came out, right? It is. I mean, yeah, yeah. 2007, 2008.

Eldon Kartchner [00:12:09] But it kind of lost all sense of the world.

John Dehlin [00:12:12] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Eldon Kartchner [00:12:13] Everything when this happened. So I was in a place of. I believe the church is true, but I don't. There's a lot of stuff that I don't understand.

John Dehlin [00:12:21] That's actually pretty significant now that I think about it. I felt like I was detracting from the interview. But if you, as a gay man, didn't really pay attention to Proposition 8.

Eldon Kartchner [00:12:33] Right.

John Dehlin [00:12:34] Well, obviously, it's going to be devastating.

Eldon Kartchner [00:12:36] I did. I knew it was going on and it mattered, but I had too much going on in my life to be involved in that. And like so many people, I'm not proud of this. Maybe a little ashamed, but, you know, that's in another state and I have a lot to do, and I have three little kids and I am married and things are okay. And, yes, I feel strongly about that. But am I going to go door to door? No, I'm not. I have other things to. I'm sorry, I'm not. I'm not proud of that position. But truly, when Heather was diagnosed, like, the world kind of became very focused.

John Dehlin [00:13:17] And

Eldon Kartchner [00:13:20] when she received the diagnosis, we really were in a place of okay, I guess. Well, you probably should get this checked out. She had mastitis, which is. It's essentially a lump in the breast while you are breastfeeding because you get inflamed area and it becomes red and really hurtful. And she'd had it for weeks. Weeks and weeks.

John Dehlin [00:13:41] Very common.

Eldon Kartchner [00:13:41] Yeah. But she'd also had them before, but it would not go away. And we called the breast center and they would do anything about it. And that. It still makes me mad that they wouldn't do anything about it. And they didn't ask her about our family history. And I'm mad that we didn't say anything about our family history. We're two grad school educated people. I don't know how we didn't put together that. She has a grandmother, two great aunts and two aunts all who had breast cancer early. So we should have put that together. We should have said any sign of mastitis ever should have made people go, whoa, check it out. We didn't. They didn't check it out until her armpit was hurting and it had already moved into her lymph nodes. And we went in to check it out from a. Oh, we should just see. Kind of. Because it's not going away. Obviously, it's. It's nothing. It's nothing, you know? Well, I remember that the doctor called, and I was actually headed to work, and we had been waiting on the doctor to call, and I had to get to work. And so we kind of just did this whole, I'm sad that I left, but we did this whole reassurance, it's totally gonna be fine, and she might even call till tomorrow. And I got about five minutes away, and she called me, and I picked up the phone, and she was just sobbing. So I knew what had happened, and I came home and couldn't really. There's flashbald moments in memory, and I can remember walking in and seeing her sitting on one of these exercise balls, holding our little baby and just bouncing on the ball, sobbing and sobbing. And I think it's pretty natural to kick in. It's sort of. I call it emotional shock. It's gonna be okay. Okay, we can handle this. Oh, it's gonna suck, all right. It's gonna be terrible. But we can handle this. And we're gonna handle this because of course you're gonna be okay. Of course you're gonna be okay. Which is exactly what happened with her family. Her, you know, her parents and her older brother rushed up from Colorado Springs to be here and to reassure and everything will be okay. And that first evening is the first time her dad gave her a priesthood blessing. And I decided that first night that I would not be part of it. And I never once gave her a priesthood blessing, which is significant because I really believe in priesthood blessings. I really do. And because I'm a great giver of priesthood blessings all the time. You know, I love studying the Spirit and studying revelation and really getting the good stuff. And the blessing, not just, you'll be healed if your faith allows it, but rather, let's give some good stuff. But I decided that moment. There's something in me that said I can't be part of any priesthood blessings because I can't be neutral about this. My. You know, my priesthood revelation, it's possible that it can't be trusted because I'm so close to it. So if I were to say, sure, you'll be healed, then. Well, of course that's what I wanted to say, even though I would try very hard to be really honest about what I was feeling. So I. I didn't participate. Well, I didn't give it. And I never again. Never after. I never gave her a priesthood blessing. And it said, you'll overcome it. You will be healed. It will Be at her trial. You will get over the cancer.

John Dehlin [00:17:43] By her own father. By her own father, yeah.

Eldon Kartchner [00:17:47] Which it's true. And he knows that it's true, but we don't talk about it because he is sorry. It really destroys him to think about that he ever said that. But of course he did. Of course he did said that he, you know, she would be home. And so we started this journey of some really serious chemotherapy for her. And she immediately had to stop breastfeeding, which was very hard for her.

John Dehlin [00:18:22] Kind of a natural mom.

Eldon Kartchner [00:18:25] She's such a good mom. I mean, she loved it and she was good at it. And we had a glorious, just a perfect for us situation because I saw clients for the first two days of the week, and then she worked at Children's Hospital as a physical therapist for Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. So we split the work week and split getting to be at home parents so that we could kind of have the best of both worlds. And that was really. That was really wonderful. And. But she. Oh, as a mother, she was incredible. Just incredible. So, yeah, stopping the breastfeeding was really hard. She's a very scheduled person. And so not having baby, like right on schedule and having things be as they were supposed to be was really hard, obviously. And we started this nasty, awful chemo that had lots of side effects and was really hard on her. And the plan was that we would do this chemo till somewhere into the second year, and then we would look at a mastectomy because the lump was in her right wrist. They said it's stage three, and so we have to remove the breast. It can't just be a lumpectomy. But what they try to do is use chemotherapy to start killing the cancer so that the lump itself shrinks. And then what you can do is take all the tissue around the lump and you are sure, much more sure then to get out any cells that might have any remaining cancer in them. So that's what they were trying to do. But a couple. Well, it was about two months into the chemo treatment, which she started right away. They diagnosed her and started the same week because it was so fast. But her. On the chemotherapy, her tumor grew. So they said, we have to take it out now. So she was scheduled for New Year's Eve to have mastectomy. So all of my family and lots of her family came over for Christmas. And we're trying to do the best we can to create this normalized life for our kids and for how things are. But like, with all this craziness around Us and of cancer and treatment and how it's just ripping her apart, her whole body. But she also was such a fighter and such a trooper. I don't. I just like. Side note, people often say, and I. I honor what they need to say to get themselves through, but people will say, you know, I fought this cancer and I won. I decided to fight. So I beat it. I realized. I looked at my children and I realized I can't let it take me. So it didn't. And it makes me angry. Oh, because you don't get to decide just because you love the people that you're with that you get to stay with them. You have to decide to fight it, but only if your cancer is actually beatable, will you beat it. So she had mastectomy single. Yeah. We figured it would be double later, but right now they were just trying to get it done and get back on the chemo as fast as possible. So we needed the least amount of healing time just because the tumor that was growing while the chemotherapy was happening is just pretty damn dangerous. And through all of this, she was getting, you know, occasional blessings from people from our member. There was a member of the bishopric assigned to us when this happened, and he would come check on us and a really great guy, and sometimes the elders quorum president would come over. But it's also significant to note that the member of the bishopric assigned to us moved after three months, and we never again saw the bishopric. And there was some. There was some beautiful organization of the ward that happened to help things, but it was a little bit hit or miss. It was really, truly about individuals. There were some people in our ward that clicked into what was happening and decided that they were going to help, and they did. And it was beautiful for them individually. But mostly her people at children's Hospital where she worked, kicked it in. And they were there for our family, and they were just constantly. This whole group of women that were her co workers and some of her other friends from our old singles ward really kicked it in in a serious way and being there for this experience. And so there was a lot of incredible charity. But it was, I would say it was, you know, in great part from people individually who decided and from mostly non members. And that was really, really beautiful to see. But we were still feeling like this is going to be okay. We're all right. We're still going to beat this. It's kind of serious. It's a little crazy, but still feeling pretty reassured that this is going to be all right. And we're checking in with each other and, you know, we're going to church and doing our thing. Unless she's too sick, which was happening a lot. Then I'd stay home with her.

Pulling Away and Searching for Support

Heather's Father's Blessing and Treatment

John Dehlin [00:24:44] I think I remember you saying that you kind of pulled away from Mormon stories during this time. Like, talk about why not Mormon stories. But what did that represent to you? Well, in a larger sense, in your

Eldon Kartchner [00:24:56] life, you know, she was going to be okay, but this crisis made me go. I don't have my spirituality figured out. Even though I believe the church is true, there are a lot of things that I don't know about and I'm wondering and questioning about, and how about we just don't poke the bear? You know, like right now we're asking for some serious help, and I have felt like it's okay to question, but just in case it's not, let's not poke that bear. Like I. Well, yeah, let's not question too much in case I have it wrong. And faith really does mean not ever questioning. We'll get back to it is what I'm thinking. It'll be okay. And this will help me figure things out even more when this whole experience of status will be really significant. And it has always been significant to me that my patriarchal blessing told me I would see and testify of miracles, literally. And so I thought, okay, well, all

John Dehlin [00:26:00] right, here we go.

Eldon Kartchner [00:26:01] I didn't have to be this big, you know, so as. As things as we figured out that her tumor was growing while she was on chemo, and it kind of. That kind of got scary. And I think Heather would sometimes get more scared than me because she worked at a hospital with children who had cancer. And so she had a better idea that, you know, this doesn't turn out well a lot of times. So we approached a gentleman in our ward who we were somewhat close to. He was an older gentleman who we really loved, and he loved our family. And he had. He and I had been co. Switching weeks on teaching gospel doctrine, and he had talked many times, both in class and would sometimes talk to us about that he literally had the gift of healing and that there were some people that he had healed. And so

John Dehlin [00:27:01] now it's interesting that Heather's father's blessing at that point wasn't enough for you guys talk about that.

Eldon Kartchner [00:27:11] I think it's about being scared. I mean, his blessing was real, and we believed it until we got more scared. And so it wasn't about not believing what we had already been told. It really wasn't. I think it's more about kind of like the experience of when you get told the church is true by the Spirit and you have a testimony that doesn't always mean that you never need to hear it again. Just because someone says they love you doesn't mean, you know, this whole. If it changes, I'll tell you, that doesn't work because that's not so good for relationships. You should remind it.

John Dehlin [00:27:48] I don't know if this is going to connect with you, but it reminds me of your teenage years and your college years where you were righteous. But at some point, 30 minutes wasn't enough of scripture reading. You needed 40. And one day of fasting wasn't enough, so you needed two.

Eldon Kartchner [00:28:08] Right. Well, nothing was changed. If things were going to change in one day of fasting, well, then, great, we're done. But when nothing changes, then maybe you need to add, too. But it wasn't just nothing was changing. It was getting worse. The cancer was getting worse. And so, okay, that was good. And we do believe, but, well, it really couldn't hurt to have some more. And this guy has this particular spiritual gift, like, by all means. And this was actually really Heather's request. She said, I. I've been really thinking and pondering and praying, and I really feel like I need to get a special blessing from our friend. And so I called him and we arranged it. I mean, we were kind of, like I say, we were nervous and scared. This was after the mastectomy, and they put her right back on chemo. So this is into January 2009. Yes. And this is. I'm kind of skipping a lot of little, tiny spiritual experiences that we're having all along the way about that we're really scared, but things will be okay. They'll be okay. And not they will be okay. The Lord will work it out. Even though it's a terrible trial. It's really, they will be okay. She will overcome cancer and live. Anyway, we arranged this blessing, and it was a really big deal to us because she felt like she should get it, and it was from somebody important who claimed to have this gift. And we felt really good about it, and we really prayed a whole lot about it and arranged this. Monday morning, we went down to the church and met together and had this blessing. And I was, you know, we were kind of, I guess, hyped up enough about it that I, you know, pulled out my phone and I recorded it and later even transcribed it so that she could read because we wanted to be faithful about what we had been told. We really didn't want to do a blessing every week. I mean, it felt like things are getting low. Let's get a blessing. Why not? It will help. But we weren't, you know, it wasn't like we had to do this blessing all the time because we don't believe. And the blessing was gorgeous and it was beautiful and it was so uplifting. And it was absolutely one page transcribed long of great clarity. You will beat this cancer. You will live. You will live because you have work to do with the young women of the church. You have work to do with your children. You will live to see your son go on a mission. You have specific goals and things that have to be accomplished with other women in the Relief Society going on and on about all these details and things that have to happen and that will happen because she's gone. She's going to get this cancer. And lots of times we came back to that blessing and reviewed it because it was real. And we felt the spirit. We felt the spirit. There were wonderful feelings. It was so true. It was so right. And I was so grateful, obviously. So, so grateful. And so then as the months go on, we're still. It was. There's a real struggle. It's hard to like summarize this all up too much, but we're up and down and back and forth because this is really hard and it's super hard on her. And also we have a brand new baby and a three and five year old, Our five year old who's in kindergarten. I mean, we're just trying to live this whole life. And Heather had to keep working just enough where we had no insurance because I didn't carry the insurance, so. Which was fine because getting out of bed actually was very revitalizing for her, but not fine because she never felt well. And she told me as we were kind of finishing up the whole chemotherapy experience and getting into the radiation. We did radiation for six weeks at the end of it. So finally we can call it good and done. This was into the end of May and into June of 2009. She finally shared with me that she had an experience in January waking up after her mastectomy that was fairly rare for her, but she really, really felt like God came talk to her. That through the spirit, she was asked, do you want to live? You have a choice. And if you choose, yes, it will be very hard. And she said yes. I remember one time me feeling that. She shared it with me because I was feeling really scared because there are just times when I was really realizing, you know, you can be faithful and doubting at the same time. You can be two things at the same time. And when I was scared with doubt, this one time, she shared that with me. It was kind of weird that she hadn't shared it with me before. And I brought that up and she said, I thought I would scare you. I thought the fact that the Lord told me that it was my choice and if I chose, I'd die, I think I thought would really scare you. So. So she chose not to tell me that until then. But she, she answered the question in her very, very strong experience. Okay, I'll do it. Yes, I realize it will be hard, but I will do it. I want to live. I want to be with my family. So it's okay. This is gonna work. It's gonna be alright. It was emotionally taxing on a relationship. It was really up and down for us as individuals. But we made it into the beginning of June. She finished radiation. They did, they call it markers in your blood to see if there's any particular markers in your blood that indicate cancerous growth. And they had lessened down to the point of that we'd be there. Okay, we're okay. We're good. Through the chemo, through the radiation, and then we began, like, we picked up life's plans real quick. Like, okay, we've got this, we're good. We like Elle's school, but we kind of like to be in a better school district than we're at. So we called a realtor. We started working on, it's time to sell the house and we should move forward. And we called a family meeting with her family about kids. It's hard. We still have a lot of healing to do. But we're going forward. We're going to be happy. This is going to be okay. We're so grateful and this has been our miracle and we're going to be all right. But her back is really, really hurting, which is maybe that's just from the radiation. But it kept hurting and it kept hurting. And we finally went in and said, what's going on? And they said, well, it's probably just radiation again. And so by the first week of July, we, on Emma's birthday, my second, our second daughter. By that evening, we had to go to the ER because she couldn't stand anymore. And of course, they just did all these tests and come to find out that her cancer had just moved into her liver with a vengeance. And there was a lesion up in her lung, but that didn't look as serious, but it was all about. So it was all about the liver and breast cancer in the liver. So it had gotten into the blood and travelled to the liver. It was breast cancer in the liver, which is different from just liver cancer. Because the way that breast cancer shows up is with hundreds of tiny lesions, little tumors. So you can't transplant, you can't do anything except try to chemo it out. So we started up the chemo again. However, she. When we were at the hospital, her oncologist came in and she was out for tests. And the oncologist had kind of looked at everything and came in and she wasn't there. Just me. And I asked her, no, please, you need to tell me what you know and what's going on. Because then I will tell her, or you can tell her, and I will have prepped her, but that will be better. So her answer to me was, well, the longest I've ever seen anybody survive this is about four years. But you need to prep. She's gonna die. Which is a moment that's really indescribable. So the doctor, she left the room and I, you know, fell to my knees and felt like maybe I haven't been good enough. Maybe you're mad at me, but I really need you to hear me. She has to be okay. She has to be okay for our children, for me. And yes, I was thinking about, you know, like, I don't. This will never work again. If you take her. I will never have anybody again. And it's not okay for people to be alone. I didn't say that earlier, but let me be clear. The idea that you should be celebrating your whole life is absolutely horrific. That you should be alone in your life.

Cancer Spreads and Hope Fades

John Dehlin [00:38:09] No.

Eldon Kartchner [00:38:11] So I'm on my knees and I'd had this happen before. Sometimes I get emotional. Sometimes I get the goosebumps. Sometimes I get a burning bosom. I get. And sometimes I really feel like I heard voice. Really just this audible thing that nobody else is hearing, but I am that. And as I'm praying there, I got that. And the voice of the Lord said to me, I will take care of this. And I knew, like, with the testimony knowledge, I knew he would heal her. It wasn't like. It wasn't a matter of interpretation. And me getting that wrong. I know what he meant. He would heal her. He promised, promised me. And oh, how I banked on it. But also dangerous to me later is that with that feeling came the sense that, I like all of this. I better earn that And I better not blow it, because if I blow it, if I do something wrong, maybe he won't do it. So it really was this. I have to be perfect. I cannot down. I cannot do anything wrong. I mean, that all really kicked in. And so we started the journey of chemo. And that was second week of July. And from there they started a chemo that was a little like. It kind of helped a little sort of stop the growth and shrunk some of the bigger tumors just a tiny bit. But it also was not quite so side effect, intrusive. So she had a few months of a little bit better than it had been, and a few months of feeling a little better because her hair started to grow back on this particular type of chemo. And she had long, gorgeous, dark, curly hair that she loved. It was kind of her personal vanity that she loved her hair and so starting to go back. And that was really uplifting. But the truth is just her health started going and things were not good.

Heather Contemplates Her Own Death

John Dehlin [00:40:57] Did she ever have that conversation with you where she's contemplating her own death?

Eldon Kartchner [00:41:05] I say one and a half times. When we went. We love to celebrate holidays, we love to celebrate birthdays, we love anniversaries. We were a party with each other people. And on my birthday in October, things were not going well, and I knew it and she knew it, but we were 2009. Yeah, 2009. And we're banking on the miracle will happen, but we just have to wait on the Lord till whenever it is that he's going to do it. And meanwhile, we're going to do our part, because that's what you do, right? So we're doing our part of kimon or whatever. But on our birthday, they turned around to her, my birthday, in the middle of just enjoying the evening because, well, she hadn't been well. She couldn't eat the whole night. She couldn't eat it. And just being sort of overcome, all of a sudden, turning around to her and saying, what if you die?

John Dehlin [00:42:11] And

Eldon Kartchner [00:42:13] her in that moment saying, it's not going to happen. You know, I think she saw me hurting and instantly went into reassuring me, and so that's not gonna happen. It's gonna be okay. Then as she continued to get worse and worse, it was only a couple weeks after that that we finally decided, okay, we're gonna have this, like, not doubting, but practical talk. And this was about two and a half weeks before she actually died that we walked around the house and it was under, if you should die, then this.

John Dehlin [00:43:03] We're not doubting, no.

Eldon Kartchner [00:43:04] Because there could be a car accident. Everybody should have this talk, of course, with their significant others about if I should die, then this and this should happen. And I would like this and this and this. But it spikes all.

John Dehlin [00:43:18] But this theme has come up a lot, not just with Heather's illness, but with your struggles with same sex attraction. It's this idea that if you don't get it quite right, then God is

Eldon Kartchner [00:43:33] what, he's not gonna come through. I didn't deserve that. I'm not enough. I didn't deserve that. So you're right. We are not doubting.

John Dehlin [00:43:46] We're not doubting.

Eldon Kartchner [00:43:47] We are not doubting. I mean, look at what's on the line. If you doubt it just was not okay. And things were getting so obviously it's such a. This was massive cognitive dissonance. It's such a fight to literally watch her wither away and become incapable and see what is happening to her mind and to her body and be faithful. They had to put her on drugs for her pain that she was on for a little while one day. And she said things to me that were not really that horrific. But between us, she had never, ever been mean to me. And she said mean things to me. And I was like, is this how low we have to go? When does this kick in? But we had a talk about what if you should die, because you should just practically have that. And went through the house, discussed things that, you know, like, I want this to do this or this to go that, and these papers are here. And pretty much I was like, yeah, I already know all that. And she said, and if I should die, I would really like my dad to conduct my funeral and I would like you to sing that one. Sang my favorite song at the funeral, if you can do that. Years before, I had happened to sing in sacrament meeting for a friend of mine in a different ward. I was not his father. He was mine. From the Forgotten Carols. I don't think it's that, like, awesome sauce of a song, but for whatever reason, that performance had super, super touched her. She really connected to it. And so she was like, I like that one enough. That sing that at my funeral if that happens. So those are the one, the two things I know about her funeral

John Dehlin [00:45:40] then.

Eldon Kartchner [00:45:41] This is getting into November and I put up everything at the beginning of November for Christmas so there could be some sort of, like, cheer and hope you're gonna make it to Christmas kind of thing. All our Christmas trees and decorations and whatnot. And as we're it was only, I think it was a couple days later that.

John Dehlin [00:46:09] Didn't she also say something about your future potential relationship?

Eldon Kartchner [00:46:12] Yeah. Yeah. A couple days later, she pulled me aside and I think she was trying to have another, like, if I should talk. And I feel like it's the greatest parting gift almost, but she tried to give me, even though we weren't acknowledging it as parting, but she pulled me aside. We sat on the edge of the couch, and she said, I need you to know that if I die, if I die, I'm okay with our children having two dads. And I think I couldn't even talk about it. You know, I thought, you're getting serious about this. We're not talking about that. So we didn't say anything further. And yet it's one of the best gifts maybe she could have given me in praying. And I remember only just a day after that, pulling her out, like on an evening, to the swing in the front of our house, the porch swing I made her for her 30th birthday. She died when she was 34 and sitting on the porch swing and apologized. Just tell her I'm so sorry that I. She was dying and I hadn't been good enough. And true for her. She just, you know, she just told me. But it was right soon after that that she became bedridden. When you have liver failure, which was happening because of the tumors in your liver, your body can't clean your blood. And so her blood got filled with ammonia, and ammonia in your blood makes your brain stop working. And so she couldn't do anything. She became bedridden, and sometimes she would wake up just enough to say a few things. But for about a week and a half, she. She was completely flat in bed and really couldn't say anything. But the night before that became complete. So this is all, like, in a matter of, like, one week, all this stuff. I. We called over the gentleman again, and, you know, she had some more priesthood blessings from various people to help along the way. But we called our gift of healing guy over again and said, you know, things aren't good. He's hungry of a blessing. And so he did. He says it took lots of prep for that and came over and it was a Sunday night, and I helped carry her downstairs. We had an upstairs bedroom to a chair and sat her in the chair, and he came in to give the blessing, which tucked her into wakas and elderly gentlemen. And I really felt like things were completely on the line because I can remember literally laying at her Feet while he gave her a blessing and saying to the Lord, you know, I'll do what you want if I've had it wrong all along. And you need to take her. Okay, you. You know, I'll let it go. Whatever you need to do, you can do. If you need to take her, you can take her butt. Just tell me. Just tell me. And he gave her the blessing that said only I promise you, you will heal and you will live. And I cannot recall ever being so completely willing to hear whatever the Lord would tell me. And the spirit absolutely confirmed for me what he said. So I carried her back upstairs, and her sister stayed with her, and I drove over to my brother's house where a great deal of my family was, and walked in and let them all know she's gonna live. I don't know how, but she's gonna live. And I'm so grateful. I feel so grateful to feel peace about the fact that she's gonna live. It's gonna be a miracle. I have gotten myself to the place of being willing to hear whatever. And he told us. And it wasn't just the man speaking. Spirit told me. And then I watched her deteriorate for the next week further and further, and kept thinking, how low do I have to go? But it's going to be okay. And there's this thing in me that's saying, there's this part of me, I'm happy to say, that is not that stupid and was terrified. And yet this part of me that was very. I am consciously overriding you. We are gonna be okay. We have to be. And plus, the Lord told me

Losing Heather and Immediate Aftermath

John Dehlin [00:52:02] so

Eldon Kartchner [00:52:05] that was Sunday. By Friday night, Thursday was Thanksgiving. By Friday night, It just wasn't. Things weren't okay. It keeps using that phrase, but it keeps getting worse. And Saturday morning, one of her physical therapy friends came over and helped help me get behind her and prop her up so that I could just hold her in bed. And she died that morning. And I can remember thinking, maybe. Maybe this is part of the plan. She'll die. All the cancer will die. And then her spirit will come back to her body and she will live again, but the cancer will have died. And so then her body can sort of flush it out and this. Okay, that makes sense. So I sat there holding my bed with her for like, 30 minutes, waiting for her to come back.

John Dehlin [00:53:24] She didn't

Eldon Kartchner [00:53:28] yet. The world just ended. Just ended. And I did my best to help take care of her. And there's again, thank everything for emotional shock, because at some point you have

John Dehlin [00:53:53] to get stuff done.

Eldon Kartchner [00:53:54] There are funeral homes to be called and arrangements to be made, and this all has to happen. And I was determined there would be nothing that happened with or about her, nothing that I was not involved with or part of, because I would be with her every. In everything and everything. I would not leave her alone. So we prepped all this stuff that day and put together a funeral program.

John Dehlin [00:54:25] And

Eldon Kartchner [00:54:28] here's like. And here's where it became. Started to become really problematic, church wise was my experience. I mean, already there are obvious spiritual problems and implications going at this point. But I didn't have time. Like, I was so besought with grief that I didn't need to think about those for a couple days. That was. We could put that aside. But I knew of only two things she wanted for her funeral. And so we were going to make those happen. And we'd been full tithe paying, happy, active members our whole life. So of course we went out of the funeral and then the church. So we called and started trying to arrange that. And the bishop was out of town for a day and then he came back, but on the phone he was very adamant about, well, you can't do anything at a funeral that I don't approve and I will be conducting. And I was like, she really wants her dad to conduct. Who, by the way, has been a bishop twice. So if that's, you know, matters priesthood wise, he's a temple worker, he's been a bishop twice. It's really okay. And this bishop's like, no. And so we're like, could you please check the stake president? He's like, all right. So he checks with stake president, comes over 24 hours after she's died, like brisks right in with this whole, hi, how are you doing? I've just been with my family for Thanksgiving. It was marvelous. If 42 people in the same house, it was wonderful. And I was sitting on the couch going, what's wrong with you? I was out of my mind at the time. And he sat down, his first words to me were, well, this is a time of great sorrow, but also a time of great joy, because we know the plan. And I think I've heard this kind of sentiment before and understood it in the church, but never did I so fully get the kind of bullcrap that is there is no joy. The plan is not joy. She's gone right now. And if I live a normal life, I won't see her for another 50 years. That's not joy. That's later. So we were not off on the right foot. He commences to tell me that it's really important for me to be very careful right now because I need to watch my behavior. I need to be very. It's important that I not have any moral transgressions at this time.

John Dehlin [00:57:10] As if you hadn't been very careful.

Eldon Kartchner [00:57:12] Right. As if I hadn't been very careful or as if I was going to run out and have sex right now with someone else. It was ridiculous. Like you're trying to check my moral behavior right now.

John Dehlin [00:57:24] But, I mean, you've been trying for your whole life to be perfect in every way.

Eldon Kartchner [00:57:31] Yeah, yeah. So, you know, so I didn't know how to respond to him in those moments. So he continues and goes on to tell me that this, you know, the church handbook instructs that the current local bishop will conduct the funeral. And so it's important that he does that because it's a matter of faith and obedience. If you don't want me as the bishop to conduct the funeral, that's a show of disobedience and faith. And that you are not like, if you're not wanting what the church handbook says. He was very clear with me. You're not being faithful and obedient. Now, I can give to him that he may not have understood what that meant to me, but for the person who just thought my righteous, like her living might be contingent on my righteousness, he just told me I'm not faithful or obedient just because I want her father to conduct the funeral. And I lost my cheek. I lost it, as in. And I've never had this experience before since I literally started hyperventilating, bent over on the couch, gasping for breath. And then after I was sitting there fully embarrassed and unable to stop this in front of this man for several minutes, he finally reaches over and says, well, listen, listen. Okay, we'll let her father conduct the funeral. Okay, we'll let her him do it. Twitch felt to me like, oh, you annoying, whiny teenager. All right, fine, I'll give you what you want. And I couldn't handle it.

John Dehlin [00:59:12] I had to leave.

Eldon Kartchner [00:59:13] I just stood up and left. And I remember telling him something on the way out about like, you're trying to tell me it's my fault that she died because I'm not obedient and just left. And her father came in and handled the rest. To which the bishop told her father, look, the stake president said from the beginning that you can conduct this funeral. I just thought it was A good time for a lesson. And I, you know, I'm not, I wasn't. Well, I just wasn't in any, any, any way, okay, Mentally, physically, spiritually at all. And so I'm now going, my wife is gone. I don't know what to do with my life. And my priesthood holder disapproves of me. And I'm trying to have this funeral where he's like all upset with me. What do my priesthood leaders think about me? What's wrong with me? I just was. There's no great sense to why I was thinking what I was thinking other than the fact that I was absolutely out of my mind. But I think his behavior. It's important for me to note that I don't, I'm not out of the church or I don't leave the church or I don't let my spirituality be affected by someone else's behavior. That's not okay with me. My spiritual life cannot be governed by someone else being an ass. But as much I think it does speak to. I know that for many people, their experiences, maybe they don't believe in the truth claims of the church, but it is their people. It is not my people. That is my experience. I know individual Mormons that I love, love, love and adore, but I don't have a group inside the church. I never walk in a ward and think, these are my people. And to me this is an example of why someone being offensive doesn't drive me out of the church. But if the only reason I had left was because of the people, well, I don't have that left. And because as things progressed through the years after that, it's now been almost three years since she died November 28th. I have had way too many, way too many LDS people give me their opinion about how I'm grieving too much and too long and not faithful enough and don't believe in the Savior enough or the temple ordinances enough. And I need to be more focused on, you know, families are forever and isn't that wonderful and isn't it great joy?

John Dehlin [01:01:54] Meaning if you, if you believed more in the temple ceremony and in the plan of salvation, you wouldn't be sad. Yeah, yeah, trust more. You know, they would say, yeah, trust more in the plan of salvation. Yeah, I'm working for you.

Eldon Kartchner [01:02:10] Not even remotely. Not even remotely. I mean, in the end, the funeral service was okay, but I'm grateful. But I actually had ready a few things because, because I think this is inappropriate. I will be wide open about saying that I Can't get on board with this. The church can do what it wants to do with its own facilities, obviously. But I think that for an active church member, there needs to be some more concession, understanding and love and compassion when someone dies. Because, oh well, saying it's our building and we can do with it what we want. And there are rules that we will follow the way we want to. It's not okay to say to someone who just lost their loved one, well, if you don't want to follow our rules about funerals, then find a different place. That's not okay. Well, maybe you should have known beforehand. No, I don't accept that either, to be honest. My problems are this. In the church handbook, it says under funerals conducted in the church, teaching and testifying about the plan of salvation, particularly the Savior's atonement and resurrection, is an essential purpose of the services of. Associated with a church member's death. It is an essential purpose to testify. The bishop conducts it. And furthermore, a funeral conducted by the bishop, whether in a church building or another location, is a church meeting and a religious service. And yeah, I'm kind of like jumping into quotes here. Not everything in between. When a bishop conducts a funeral, he or one of his counselors oversees the planning of the service, but he ensures that the funeral is simple and dignified, with music and brief addresses and sermons centered on the gospel. And finally, funerals provide an important opportunity to teach the gospel and testify of the plan of salvation. They also provide an opportunity to pay tribute to the deceased. However, such tributes should not dominate a funeral service. The funeral of the church is expected that it not be about the person who we are there to remember and honor. That's ridiculous. It is the expectation that if we let you have a funeral in our church, you will talk about the plan of salvation to the people who are there. It is a missionary tool. And that's so inappropriate. It's inappropriate. If that's what a family wants, fine. Because lots of family and people do want that about their service. They do, but it just. It was not okay. It's not okay to direct grief about that. I understand that you have to have some parameters about not wanting to let people do whatever it is here. There again, I'm not trying to go to the bottom of the rabbit hole, but I just think the. The things they expected of us were not okay and it's not okay for other people. The funeral was not about missionary work. It should never have been. It was a moment to really focus on the grief of Losing my partner, of losing my children's mother of her. And I did everything within me to make it so. And I feel happy about that. But there were still, you know, several required talks from the bishop and another one about the plan of salvation that I had multiple. Lots and lots of people come to me afterwards and say, this was such a beautiful service. I think it really honored her. Well, except those two, because it just doesn't fit. I'm sorry. This is not a church meeting for missionary work. So on record, I can't stand it. It's not.

Funeral, Priesthood, and Religious Tensions

John Dehlin [01:06:11] Okay,

Eldon Kartchner [01:06:14] here's the. I also. I kind of say it this way about my experience. After Hazard died with the church, I did that. I mean, people even said, well, you say you felt the spirit, but it was really Satan just deceiving you. Because I know people are trying to make sense of what I was saying about the Spirit, giving me promptings that were obviously not true. But what occurred to me pretty fast is I felt the Spirit not softly and indistinguishably, multiple times, very clear. I have studied it most all of my life to understand it. I have sought it out. It's not foreign to me. I love to feel the Holy Ghost. And I sought to seek it. And I sought to seek it from a deep level, not an emotional level. And I sought to get it from a. Not just because this is what the answer. I want it to be level and do so very, very honestly. And every single thing that I felt, I made it up. I made it up. And if every instance of the Holy Ghost that I felt, I made it up because it's what I wanted it to be about, Heather, then every other confirmation of the truthfulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ is absolutely subject to doubt. That's how I know the church is true. The same thing that told me how they would live. I made it all up. And it started to be completely over for me. Completely over. I tried. I tried and I tried to make it continue to work, but it was. I mean, it was gravity. It was falling fast. That I can't go to church. It feels horrible to me. I know none of this is true. I know that. I know nothing. No, nothing. I can choose what to believe, but everything that has ever been what it's supposed to be is completely lost its absolute credit. And I can sort of hear in my head and heard for a long time people. People's excuses about why it was my fault. Again, it's always my fault. Always. I didn't get the spirit right. I didn't hear it correctly. I misinterpreted it. I didn't. It's always my fault if the church

John Dehlin [01:09:09] isn't true, if you're not cured of

Eldon Kartchner [01:09:11] your same sex situation.

John Dehlin [01:09:12] Right?

Eldon Kartchner [01:09:13] If everything. If Heather dies, If Heather died, like, yes, it's always my fault. Which is a weird way of making myself important almost, but so unhealthy. And it's so not. It's not. Okay. I can't. It doesn't make any sense to me to be part of a gospel where anything that goes awry is my fault, but everything that goes good is not credited to me. I mean, I guess that makes sense with how I felt about myself growing up, but it just kind of meant that the church for me started plummeting. And yes, people can try and nuance around in their own minds my story and say, well, this or that. You didn't feel the spirit, or you didn't know what you were talking about, or you just thought the spirit was emotions, when really it's something much deeper and richer and more pure. And I'm sorry. I did it all. I absolutely, fully, wholly reject that from my position. The spirit was made up. I did it. Which means while we're pretty amazing as human beings as to what we can convince ourselves of, that's what I got. And now I was left in a world where the church wasn't true. Or at least if it was, I certainly didn't know it, because everything I'd ever thought about it and all the things that held me to it were completely suspect. Then come in. All the knowledge that I've been gleaning. Remember how you say it's dangerous? All the knowledge that I have starts coming back to me and there's no spirit to hold up my testimony. And I go, no, thank you. I don't want this anymore. Even though I did want it, because I wanted it to be true. I wanted it to be true. You know, I remember it was actually the beginning of this summer, walking down one of the flights of stairs in my house at that moment and having kind of this moment of. Of prayer where I. I don't want to be sacrilegious to anybody. This is just my experience. But I remember saying, praying to Jesus, saying, okay, you and I were best friends, weren't we? How did you not tell me this is fake? How did you not tell me? And you know what I got back? Nothing. It's hard to live in a silent world spiritually, but it's where I'm at. And it's really really hard to be without the one person who loves me no matter what, who was my connect to partner all the time. And I can see what if by some medical weirdness and something that. What happens because this spontaneous kind of healing happens now and then. What if she got better? If she just happened to get better, we'd have done. It's a miracle. I'll testify. The rest of my life, I will throw down on you because I know it is true. And you can. I would like, what if she had spontaneously just gotten better? Because that does happen. Wow. We would have been locked in. Although as much as I'm grateful for kind of a lesson, more than kind of a full lesson, in reality that I feel like this has been. Let me be clear that you can take this lesson and shove it. Give me her back and you can have all the lessons you want. I don't want them. I don't need them. There is no sense of this Mormon idea that, like, I'm so grateful for my trials or I wouldn't trade my trials and my lessons for the world. Yes, yes, I do. But I don't get her back. And I couldn't. I couldn't be in the church. I couldn't be in the place that taught me that I'm worthless. Because without her here, I have to learn that I'm worth something, even without her reminding me that I'm worth something. And so I've been working on that and on what I do believe. But it's been really hard that the LDS world is what I grew up surrounded with. And I like to say it this way, in general, individuals aside, Mormons are really good at comforting those that stand in need of comfort. They're horrible at mourning with those who mourn. They don't mourn well. Our whole culture does not mourn well. Mormons do not mourn well. And so this grief process has been really, really lonely and hard with the exception of some amazing people that have been on it with me.

Faith, Doubt, and the Santa Claus Argument

John Dehlin [01:14:47] Let me ask you just maybe one question or two. So there's an argument that says, I may not believe in Santa Claus, but I. But I sure enjoy Christmas.

Eldon Kartchner [01:15:04] That's me. So,

John Dehlin [01:15:08] yeah, she didn't pull through. But look at how much hope you had through the process and how religion kind of plugged that hole of doubt and sort of nihilism that you might have felt in this desperation. You kept fighting, you had hope, you believed in that next day. How can you say that wasn't good? And would you have had it another way if you had it to do over again,

Eldon Kartchner [01:15:50] I think.

John Dehlin [01:15:51] Rewind in 2008, and you're both atheists because Mormon stories takes you both out of the church.

Eldon Kartchner [01:15:57] Right. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:15:58] Is it a happier, better death?

Eldon Kartchner [01:16:00] Okay. Well, first of all, would we have fought less for her to live if we were atheists? No, we would have fought just as hard. Would we have had more conversations about what was really going to happen? Yes. I think that it was sort of healing and calming and peaceful to her to believe she was going to live until she didn't, even though in her last days, I know she knew she wasn't going to.

John Dehlin [01:16:31] So it was meaningful to her to hold on, to hope that she would still live.

Eldon Kartchner [01:16:36] I think so. But could it have been better or just as good? Maybe not better, but just as good to not have that hope? I believe the answer is, yes, I do. We could have still held to each other. We could have loved each other just as much, been just as present for each other, and probably had a lot more conversations about reality and what we hoped for each other and what this experience really meant for us if we weren't spending all of our energy trying not to believe what was so obviously in front of our face, trying to

John Dehlin [01:17:12] avoid that conversation because it would be a symbol of doubt.

Eldon Kartchner [01:17:16] Right. Right now, does that. I mean, people can be faithful and still go, you're gonna die. So let's have that conversation. But just in our situation, yeah. I do believe we could have been atheistic and still had a as good or if not better experience together. I mean, it. This is small, but I don't know that maybe this resounds for everybody, but when she died, I was with her. I was holding her, but I. I was waiting for her to come back instead of with all of my heart and soul just being with. With her while she went. I wish that I had just been able to be with her instead of waiting for her to come back. So that. Okay. Does that answer your question?

John Dehlin [01:18:26] Yeah. Do you think that? Well, I remember you telling me that when you would come to her with questions you got from Mormon stories and she would say, that's not my church, you know, all that belief, we're not gonna believe that, right? Yeah. What if it's just as simple as you got the wrong teaching that priesthood blessings are really going to heal you, that sometimes they work and sometimes they don't, but God takes who he takes and death happens and there's no escaping it. And there's a lot of Mormons out there that when they get that Blessing that you're going to be healed. They do what Heather did when you brought polyandry to her, they're just like, it may work, but it may not. And let's not put too much stock in these. What if you were just like you talked about expectations. What if you were just set up to put too much stock in these a little bit superstitious kind of prayers, and you tied your Mormonism to a false doctrine or a folk doctrine?

Eldon Kartchner [01:19:39] Right. Well, in the conference, right after she died is when we had a talk about, you know, priesthood blessings really aren't to be trusted. You know, too damn late, suckos. You could have told me that before. No, I don't even know that. Everybody really took that talk and said, yeah, that's true. We don't trust them anymore. What if I just believe too much false doctrine? What if it's my fault? Everything's my fault. I'm not the one who chose what doctrine would be given to me.

John Dehlin [01:20:26] What if it's church's? What if it's that those Sunday school teachers and those seminary teachers fault for, you know, setting you up? Right.

Eldon Kartchner [01:20:33] Well, then just correlate more. That's not going to be the answer. It's that, you know, trying to control what people teach spiritually. I don't think having more control is going to be the issue. I think it's about teaching to pull from the Church correct principles. Correct principles and let people govern themselves. And I don't see the Church teaching principles. I do not. Well, okay, they teach principles, but that is not the crux of the Church. The Church teaches absolute obedience, and here's the rules and here's the laws, and isn't it nice they're based on principles? I think we just should always teach principles. You know, from what I'm hearing in your question, is a little bit, if I'd have been a different, maybe a different person, or if I'd have been taught differently, would my experience be different? Would I still go to church? Would I still believe it was true? Because it wasn't based on a whole bunch of spiritual things that I thought I felt. What if I was one of these

John Dehlin [01:21:33] more

Eldon Kartchner [01:21:35] solid people who just read the Scriptures and they know that it's true and it just makes good sense, and they're not questioning because they don't need to question. And what if I was just not so emotional? Well, in part, that's like saying, what if I wasn't me? But I am. And the other part, I think, is if I was. If I didn't believe all this stuff so surely and wasn't so invested the way that I've described the answer to your question is maybe I'd still be going to church. You bet.

John Dehlin [01:22:13] But that doesn't necessarily make it true either.

Eldon Kartchner [01:22:15] Right?

John Dehlin [01:22:15] That's kind of what you're saying.

Eldon Kartchner [01:22:17] No, it doesn't. Just because I was still believing doesn't mean that it's true.

John Dehlin [01:22:22] Right. And now I'm kind of flipping to the other side, the doctrine. There's more than one doctrine we're talking about here because one is priesthood blessings, but the other is prayer. And I remember talking to you about this a few months ago and you already alluded to this a little bit. But. What did your prayers mean? And what could you trust? Well, and why couldn't Heavenly Father communicate to you in a way to where things were clear when it was? So when this was the time where maybe it mattered most for you to get some clarity?

Reckoning With Prayer After Loss

Eldon Kartchner [01:23:11] Well, the church answer in my head again says it's my fault, something was wrong about me, that I didn't get the right answer. But prayer, it actually occurred to me during the experience of cancer very strongly as so many people are like, we're praying for you. We're praying for you. I mean, that's the, like, that's the answer ad nauseam that you're totally in our prayers, just in a million ways, our prayers and thoughts. And I think that that is not a bad thing. But what occurred to me, as people said this over and over and over and over and over, is prayer is for the prayer only. Prayer changes the position and feeling or charity or just like the soul of the person who is praying. And it puts them in a better position and space. It doesn't have to. It doesn't always. But that's the power of prayer. I think that it changes the prayer whether God is there or not. They are putting themselves in a quieter, more in tune, kind of a focused position that can be really positive and from which much great action and a lot of love can come. But I don't think that it brings about things that you ask for because you asked for them. I think it can put you in a position of feeling, of getting, you know, finding a way to get what it is that you have really focused on that you need somehow in your life. But it doesn't just happen just because you prayed and then the Almighty gave it to you. And it started to irritate me too. Prayer started to kind of irritate me as a principal because I heard so many, you know, over and over. Oh, my gosh.

John Dehlin [01:25:10] We're praying for you.

Eldon Kartchner [01:25:11] We're totally praying for you. And first of all, I wanted to respond, I don't need your prayers. Hug me. Send me a message. Like, I don't know. There's. I can list up a million things you could do that could be literally helpful and supportive. So to me. And praying for me is not one of them, because that's been done. The prayer has happened. Whatever's gonna happen from the prayer has happened. And it starts to feel like you're telling me that you're gonna pray for me as your way out of doing anything else. Now, that's dismissing a lot of people's charity and love and kindness, and I don't want to do that, but I still think I want to push against that and still think that there's an element of what people do when they say prayers and thoughts for you. That's about. That's my ticket. Like, that's my check mark. I've said prayers and thoughts for you. And so that's all I'm doing instead of really engaging with something that I might really need. Because does God. Do we really believe God needs to hear a thousand times instead of one? If you do, then I guess we're in opposition about what we believe. But I have a hard time with the heavenly father or mother or God of any kind that says it's like,

John Dehlin [01:26:36] nope, no, not yet. Not yet.

Eldon Kartchner [01:26:38] Not yet. Not yet. More, more. More like, you got to keep putting the coins in the spot. No. And my other issue with it is to feel like, honestly, I'm saying prayers for you. Are you. How many times do we just say, I'm praying for you on Facebook. My friend has cancer. Oh, prayers for you. How often does that actually equal somebody literally petitioning their God? So I just. I feel like prayer has become this out for people, and it's so often not actually happening. And in the end, it's a good thing, but it's for the person praying.

John Dehlin [01:27:25] So three final questions, and you can make them as short as you want. Would you take prayer now that you've had a souring on prayer? Would you take that away from everybody else if you could, in the sense that you could enlighten them as to your perspective?

Eldon Kartchner [01:27:42] Now,

John Dehlin [01:27:44] do you kind of wish that there could be a world without prayer? No.

Eldon Kartchner [01:27:48] No. I wish there could be a world with more directed, purposeful prayer. I wish there could be a world with prayer where we understand what it's for, where we own Prayers to put myself in my place, not to get something for you. I am not magic with my words. Getting something from you for yourself. Yeah. But if we really own the truth of it. I have prayed. I still occasionally pray. From my perspective, I really feel like I don't know if someone's listening. I don't. But I recognize something is happening right now that I am personally quite powerless about. So if there's something going on out there and this can help, please. And I'm really being honest.

John Dehlin [01:28:41] If not.

Eldon Kartchner [01:28:42] If not, I'm gonna do my best. Or, you know, going into kind of meditative prayers. If it's not just talking to God, but just putting yourself in a different place, what could be better than that? People putting themselves in a better place. If that's what you're calling for, I would not take it out of the world.

John Dehlin [01:28:58] So would you advise parents to teach their children and churches to teach their members of a more pragmatic approach to prayer, a less superstitious approach?

Eldon Kartchner [01:29:09] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:29:10] Does that take away the power of prayer?

Eldon Kartchner [01:29:12] Well, seeing as, you know, considering what I actually think the power of prayer is, no.

John Dehlin [01:29:19] It instead prevents people from being set up for disappointment.

Eldon Kartchner [01:29:23] Right. And like when you call for. When a whole nation together, so to speak, is all praying, and they're all praying for the same thing, I do think there's an energy about that where there's a togetherness and there's an understanding that you and I are doing something to focus on helping, on charity, on loving. And so I'm putting myself in a really good place with that. And you're putting yourself in a good place with that. And we're both doing that. And I think that there's a togetherness about that that is really powerful and beautiful, but not the. Okay, enough. People pray that finally, Heaven, Father's listening. Not that.

Did Heather Die a Believer

John Dehlin [01:30:06] All right, last two questions. Did Heather die a believer?

Eldon Kartchner [01:30:12] Yeah, I assume. I mean, I don't. I can't know what happened in her last days. I do know that she knew she was going to die. She started saying stuff and asking for stuff, indicating, I'm not going to make it. So maybe that means she wasn't a believer. And maybe that does mean that, although I don't think she was quite conscious enough often enough to necessarily put that together in her mind. How do you know what's really happening consciously with somebody in that position? But I also know from our experience together that on the journey we took, as far as we took it, we were together. And so I feel very comfortable in surmising no matter where she was when she died, which I assume is believe as. As believing as I was, she would be with me where I'm at now.

John Dehlin [01:31:10] So this is a compound final question, but do you. Do you believe she's still somewhere and that you'll be with her again?

Eldon Kartchner [01:31:20] I hope so. I have really made peace with the idea that she's not, because I don't

John Dehlin [01:31:31] know,

Eldon Kartchner [01:31:33] that started to break down a lot of church things for me as well, right away. Because the church answers are that because she is sealed and she has the gospel, she went to the spirit world where she was in spirit paradise and proceeded to be a missionary to those in spirit prison so that she could teach the gospel and they could learn it and do temple work. And maybe she's in the temple doing temple work, helping people through there so they can get their salvation and come back to the spirit paradise where they will eventually get resurrected. And this whole plan of salvation, she's busy doing all this work. It's really good thing. Except she really did not want to go on a mission because she didn't like talking to people. She didn't like this whole proselytic thing. So not her. There's no way that she went right over and started doing missionary work in the spirit paradise. Unless she became a different person altogether when she died, in which case, what's the point of this life if you suddenly become somebody different? So who she is did not match with what I knew about what she was supposed to be doing over there. So, yeah, that doesn't really work. Then there's the. Well, she's with you. She's always with you. She's around your children. She's in your house. Look, I love that idea. I'm not gonna lie. But it's not enough. It's almost insulting as an idea because it's so not enough. And it occurred to me rather quickly, if she is here, if her spirit exists with me, then she is spending all of her time watching me sobbing on the floor and her children falling down the stairs or doing their homework or whatever. And she can't help them. She can't stop their pain. She can't do anything. She can't even say hi to me. That's hell. That's hell that she has to sit here and watch her children and can say and do nothing. That's not guardian angel. That's not beautiful. It's hell. I cannot wish that for her. I like to imagine that time is so different that she died. And by the time she literally turns around, so have I. And so she doesn't even know she's gone until I'm already there with her. I like to wish that for her. I like to wish a lot of things that feel nice. But it's all wishing that I maintain. It's all wishing what we hope it is. If I die and there's nothing there, I'll never know. And I'm okay with that, because I'll never know. I can't. I hope I see her again. I saw her. That her children get to meet her. But I'm not banking my life on it. I do believe, I do absolutely believe by choice, that if she is somewhere and it's possible to see her, that I will. There is nothing, no temple ordinance or lack thereof, or behavior or obedience or law or ordinance of any kind anywhere that will keep me from her. If she exists and we all go to somewhere where we can see each other, I will see her and I will be with her. And it has nothing to do with the church. And I hope that's. I hope I do.

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 375

John Dehlin [00:00:05] Mormon Stories Podcast is a production of the Open Stories Foundation. This podcast is also available in high definition video@YouTube.com MormonStories so welcome back to this interview with Eldon Kirchner. I want to thank Eldon for all that he's shared with us so far. Certainly has been a very moving and, for me, an important story to share. A perspective about grief and of loss and of faith and of loss of a certain type of faith. And we thought it would be really interesting to end this interview bringing on some members of Eldon's family, because while we probably didn't cover it as much as would have been appropriate in the first few hours of this interview, Elvin's family number one played a really important role in supporting him both before, during, and after Heather's passing. But also, I think one of the important things to understand about grief is that it doesn't just end with the tragic event. It lives on, and it affects other people. It sometimes can even have a ripple effect. So we believe this is a story of hope, but that doesn't mean that it's always happy and shiny and rosy. The impact of Heather's death has been tangible, not just to Eldon, but to his extended family or his immediate family. Extended family. And so we brought on four members of Eldon's family. We have Carrie, Eldon's sister. We have Jason, Carrie's husband. We have Tyson, Eldon's brother. And we have Jen, which is Tyson's wife. Do you mind being introduced as Tyson's wife?

Eldon Kartchner [00:02:15] Is that okay?

John Dehlin [00:02:16] And Jason is Carrie's husband. Is that all right? Are you cool with that?

Jen [00:02:21] Yeah, we're Marri. Yeah. Yep. We're gonna go with wife.

John Dehlin [00:02:26] And the Karschners have great senses of humor, so this will be fun. This will be a little bit everything in this final segment. But I thought it would first make sense. You know, everyone knows Eldon's story, and we're listening to the past interview for the most part. So I wanted to give each a chance to share a reflection or two or three about Eldon's story, just to provide some color and some perspective from other vantage points. So maybe we'll start there, if that's all right. And maybe we'll start with Jen.

The Week Heather Died

Jen [00:03:11] So I think where I might choose to come in in the story is the week that Heather died. Earlier that year, you know, when Heather's cancer and treatments were going on, I was wrapped up in my own. My own thing. I was pregnant, and I just kind of said to myself, you know, What? This is really terrible, but Heather's going to make it through, so we're gonna let her do that. And I'm gonna just keep going with my life, too. You know, it's. You guys are not my blood relatives. You're the in laws or I'm the in law. So I kind of had my independence that way. In the week or two before Heather died, these family emails went around between the Kartchner siblings showing all this love and support and scripture references and just a lot of lifting up, a lot of help for Elden. And that was very touching to me that night when Elden came over to our house after he had gotten that last very strong confirmation that even though it looks bad, Heather's gonna live. And I believe it. I watched him there sitting at our kitchen table. I looked at his face, I heard his voice. I believed what he said, and I said, okay, that's pretty powerful. Then I guess there is going to be this miracle happening and I better get on board. It seemed like the family was getting on the miracle boat and I could make the choice to get on and be a part of this very special experience, or I could just keep on being independent and not have it affect me very much. So I remember, I think it was Wednesday night that week, Wednesday during the day, I had prayed a lot to if this was really going to happen, to offer my own asking of the Lord, you know, please, can we ask that this would happen? You know, whatever according to they will that you're supposed to add into prayers, you know, Lord, whatever thy will is, that would be great. But we're asking for this miracle and I would like my own confirmation whether or not this is really going to happen. As is usual for me, spiritual experiences and praying, I don't get that strong of a response right away. I usually, you know, pray or ask whatever it is I'm asking, then wait a while, sit on it, and then I'll get an answer later.

Guest [00:06:35] So.

Jen [00:06:38] So I did my praying and didn't feel anything right away and got up and went. Throughout my day, I just waited for the answer to come, whenever it was going to come. And that's usually what happens, you know, I think as far as my spiritual language, I guess it's not anything super strong or voices. I always felt like the Lord let me make my own decisions and did my own thing anyway to move along. Talking a long time. We're gonna cut this part out. Later that night, I went back over to Eldon's house. They didn't live too Far from us. As soon as I walked in the front door of their house, I immediately felt different. It was a very peaceful feeling going inside the boundaries of the front door. And closing the front door of their house. It was very beautiful. I just felt peaceful and wonderful. And the house was calm. It's not soundless at all. Their bedroom, where Heather was laying on the bed, was upstairs. I was taking note of how it felt throughout the house. They went up the stairs, and I stopped at the doorway to their room. And I leaned against the door frame and looked in at Heather on the bed. And it was even stronger there in the room, the peaceful feelings. And I just looked at Heather and I thought to myself that while Heather is laying there on her bed, she's fighting it. She's fighting with her body. She's fighting the cancer. That's what she's doing while she's sleeping there, and she'll be fine. And I told Eldon later that I got the feeling that his house was not a house of death. That's what I thought. And he said that was helpful to hear that. And so the next day, that still felt good. So at that point, I was in the boat, on the miracle boat. I was on board. And even though Heather died a couple days later, I think I can say that I've been on board, so to speak, ever since, with the family, with whatever. Whatever these guys are going through, with what Ellen's going through. I wanted to be on board. You know, it did happen to them, but I felt like it happened to me, too. I felt like my prayers were answered. And then I felt like something wrong happened. I felt like something crashed to the ground. So I felt like it happened to me, too. The end of that.

John Dehlin [00:09:49] So do you do. Does it leave you feeling like you understand what those feelings meant or don't understand or don't understand?

Jen [00:09:57] You mean now, looking back?

John Dehlin [00:09:58] Yeah.

Jen [00:10:02] I've had. I have talked to different people about it, trying to figure out what happened. I had lots of questions. What does this mean, what happened? And I've had people try and deconstruct it for me or help me deconstruct it, help me go through that. And I came to a point where I didn't like doing that anymore. I didn't like talking to other people about it. Because I felt like they were taking something that was sacred to me and trying to take it apart. I don't know. So I have great sympathy for that. I have great sympathy for other people's spiritual experiences and not trying to re Explain them. I don't really know. I guess my answer is, I don't know how I interpret that today. I haven't fully come to terms with it. I think it is more along the lines of, yes, our bodies are very powerful. Our minds, our brains are very powerful. I've had someone tell me that,

John Dehlin [00:11:17] you

Jen [00:11:17] know, when I prayed to Heavenly Father, maybe he didn't tell me, yes, Heather was going to live. Maybe his answer was giving me a hug. Maybe he was giving me a hug of comfort because he knew it would be a hard time. And I have different responses back to that. But. But that's not what I felt at the time. I felt that Heavenly Father's answer to me was that she was gonna live

Guest [00:11:44] and

Jen [00:11:47] I could get on board with the miracle because it was happening.

John Dehlin [00:11:52] How'd it taste Him?

Guest [00:11:57] For me, one of the differences between Eldon and I that we actually had talked about for years is how I can be very. You could call it lethargic. I can be very. Just unaffected by things happening and just sort of let him. Let him. And Eldon, on the other hand, is far more charged emotionally and hangs on to things. And spiritually, I think that applied as well. So when Heather was first diagnosed with cancer, I was part of the priesthood blessings that her family initially were all there to give. And I gave Eldon one. And it was a blessing of strength to do his part through the whole ordeal. I believed throughout the whole process, throughout the whole year, that she was going to get better. But I also just said, okay, well, God said she was going to be fine. I left it at that and didn't really go any farther. So I wasn't as emotionally invested throughout the full year. Complement to that is spiritually, people. Some people need a lot more answers to prayers or need a lot more communication with God. I didn't. Getting big revelations or very clear ones wasn't something that I was very invested in doing. I just sort of, you did what was right, and that was good enough, felt right. So I wasn't as vested in this whole process until it got towards the end and Heather really started deteriorating. Then it became something that was very difficult to say, maybe this is not going to be okay. And really questioning. When Jim talks about the night that Eldon. He came up to her house about two weeks before Heather died after this blessing, that really gave him hope. And he was different. He was really different than he'd been for a whole year. Eldon talks about how difficult this was for Heather in going through the chemo. But he hasn't talked it. He hardly ever slept. He was doing

John Dehlin [00:14:36] everything.

Guest [00:14:37] He was a wreck. And when he came over, he was a completely different person. He was the Elden that we knew before she got cancer. And I was just. It was everything that I thought that the fruits of the spirit were. It was joy, it was happiness, it was faith. It was these things that. That were this just amazing transformation. Like, Jen, I hadn't really doubted it before, but I said, this is real.

Spiritual Experiences Surrounding Her Death

Guest 2 [00:15:12] This is.

Guest [00:15:15] Heather's in a very bad place. She's not supposed to live, but she is. And as she just deteriorated and got into basically a comatose state for the next two weeks, there was an experience especially. I believe it was two nights before she. Before she passed away. So I'm right in there again. Eldon was a complete wreck. He never slept. And, you know, I can only guess. I mean, among everything going on, he was afraid that, what if she died while he was sleeping? What if? Who knows? All these terrible things that must run through your mind. And so I begged him, well, let me back up. We were sitting there, Heather's on their bed. Elden and I are sitting there. It's late at night. And. His oldest girl, Elle, came up because they had nightly rituals where he would read to them. And this happened every night, was started by Heather, I'm pretty sure. So part of the thing was reading children's book, but part was reading a scripture. And so I said, well, what do you want to read, Ellen? I think Ellen asked me to pick something. So I pulled out my phone, I had the scriptures on my phone, and I just handed it to Ellen. I said. And it was, you know, at the very top level where you can dig down into the pearl. Great price, Book of Mormon. Buy whatever you want. And so she pushed her way through a couple of buttons, and she landed on Joseph Smith's first vision, right in. I think it's verse 10, where he. So. We're waiting for a miracle, and it's not coming. And we've been promised so many times that it will come. And Joseph Smith describes how he's being attacked and the darkness is closing in, and he's basically giving up. And at the very, very last moment, the light shines forth and God and Christ come to him and he's delivered. And we sat there and it was. Enough for me because there was. I just hope. As the night progressed, I begged Albin

Eldon Kartchner [00:18:20] to

Guest [00:18:23] get some sleep. And I told him I would stay up with Heather all night long. I would not. And I would, you Know, I just begged him to get some sleep and I reassured him that I would stay up and be with her so that nothing would happen. And she hadn't been eaten, eating or drinking. And you know, in the middle of the night at certain times, she. She actually came out of her sort of comatose state, asked for some water, so, you know, sponge fed her some water. The next day she was able to eat a little bit. And, and I. You don't have to look at that and say, that's the miracle. That's God speaking. But that was for me, him saying, you go down so far and that's when the light shines. That's when Christ appears and things turn around. Which for 24 hours it seemed like maybe that was remotely possible. I thought maybe we were on the upswing. The morning that she died, we'd been,

Jen [00:19:42] yeah, you came home.

Guest [00:19:43] Yeah, we came home because I thought things are probably, things are going to be okay. I can go home for a couple hours, shower and do some things that we haven't done in two days. But later that morning, just got the call from our other brother who was at the house that she had passed away. And I was on the stairs and I sat down and I just stared for a while. I didn't. But.

Guest 2 [00:20:20] So

Guest [00:20:24] not leading anywhere. This is just, it's part of the story of. I think we were all really vested and if you need to continue believing and this story somehow says, maybe it's not what you think. I don't want to take away from whatever anyone else's experience is, but our experience, my experience and I think our experience, as much faith as you possibly, possibly can have, we had it. We had all the faith, the faith to move a mountain. We had was there and. It didn't work out. So not leading again to anywhere. But that's my experience. When

Guest 2 [00:21:28] we lost Heather.

How Others Responded to Heather's Passing

Jen [00:21:31] Did you want to talk about after that, like how you saw other people,

Guest [00:21:36] if you want to go there?

John Dehlin [00:21:38] Well, I just want to say that in talking about what we might talk about, you know, my inclination was to say, well, let's never, never leave it sad or leave it, you know, non hopeful. Let's make sure and give them hope. But the truth is sometimes there isn't a resolution and sometimes it's just terrible and that's it. Am I right?

Guest [00:22:07] No, you're right. I mean, Jen's referring to. As you try and piece together

John Dehlin [00:22:15] what

Guest [00:22:15] happened after the fact, you sort of go into autopilot for a while, but as you emerge out of that, you really Try and piece together what happened. And as you try and piece that together and the pieces don't fit, and no matter who you go to or what you read or where you look, they don't fit. Yeah, it takes. It's. A lot of. It changed a lot of things. So I didn't know if we wanted to go there or if we wanted to talk more about just the events surrounding Heather before we did.

John Dehlin [00:22:49] Are you referring about changes to your beliefs?

Guest [00:22:52] Changes to my beliefs changes.

John Dehlin [00:22:53] We'll come back to that. We'll have everyone talk about what they want to share about their belief changes.

Jen [00:22:59] Well, in fact, John, with what you just said about wanting to be hopeful but also acknowledging sometimes there's not hope right now. So we can't talk about that. We got really tired of reading stories with a happy ending. That's all that's. That seems like that's all that's provided in things like the ensign, stuff from the churches. This person went through a hard time, but that hard times over now, and now they're doing great. It always ended with they're doing great. There's always hope. And we were in the middle of the hard time, and that lasted for a long time. So we didn't really appreciate the stories that had a light at the end of a tunnel or the sun rising. We were in the middle of the darkness, and we couldn't relate to any stories with a happy ending. And that really needs to be acknowledged. People's pain needs to be acknowledged, and you don't have to try and cover it up with a happy story.

John Dehlin [00:24:15] In some cases, three years later, it's still there.

Jen [00:24:19] Yeah.

Eldon Kartchner [00:24:19] Well, you got.

John Dehlin [00:24:25] Jason. Well,

Guest 2 [00:24:32] Carrie and I are the oldest. We got married. Carrie's the oldest in the family, and we got married first. And years ago, everyone was young, so Eldon was in high school, married. All the siblings were little. So been around the family a long time, and one thing that has always stood out was how well all the siblings got along together and how they. I don't think. I think I've told Kerry multiple times that I don't think I've ever seen them fight. Even when they were little kids, we would go over and. And they would tease each other, but they'd never get into a fight. And so life was good. Everything was going to plan and the family was exemplary. And then life threw a curveball and. And it was interesting to see how everyone reacted. And they reacted like I thought everyone would. Everyone rallied and everyone went all in. I think the terms we kept using Was everyone's cards are on the table. We're all in tremendous amount of faith, tremendous amount of fasting, tremendous amount of prayer. I was quite taken back of how vested Carrie was just seeing every. Her focus for months was, you know, laser paint on this, on this family thing. And we're going to pull together as a family. We're going to pull through this. And there was unwavering faith belief by everyone. We used to get together every Sunday. Eldon and Heather would make a breakfast for dinner, pancakes and crepes. And so we get together, we do that, we play cards. And I felt a special bond with Heather because Heather and I were the two in the family that were ultra competitive. And the rest of these people were just around to have fun. And so we would play cards and Heather and I were deadly serious and the rest of them were laughing and playing and would never get as serious as we wanted.

John Dehlin [00:27:28] That's annoying. Yeah, I know, that's totally annoying. I would.

Guest 2 [00:27:32] And that's how you explain the rules of how you. How you play cards and serious stuff.

Eldon Kartchner [00:27:39] So I felt a second place is the first loser.

Guest [00:27:42] That was one thing.

Guest 2 [00:27:43] We were one time at their parents house and they were in the basement cleaning some things out and Heather and I were down there together and they were all there and there was a trophy that we found and it said second place. And Heather said second place. It was in their house. And I said, right, second place is the first dessert. And she started in as soon as I said that. We said it together. And all of these.

Eldon Kartchner [00:28:09] You were just appalled, you bunch of jerks.

Guest 3 [00:28:13] Second place rocks.

Guest 2 [00:28:16] So I felt a different connection to Heather that than I think the rest of the family did. It was kind of a kindred spirit in a different way.

John Dehlin [00:28:28] But

Guest 2 [00:28:32] at the same time I was nervous and scared the whole time. I'm more of a skeptic by nature. And so I. I wasn't all in and I was so. I was afraid to get too close. I didn't want to. I didn't want to taint the water. And so at times I would keep a distance.

John Dehlin [00:29:05] Because if you were to let on that you weren't necessarily on the miracle boat.

Guest 2 [00:29:10] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:29:11] It might what,

Guest 3 [00:29:15] make his wife mad?

Eldon Kartchner [00:29:18] Yeah, for one.

Guest 2 [00:29:20] And I wanted to be dead wrong. And I. I wanted to be proven wrong.

John Dehlin [00:29:26] Were you worried that you could be the one that would mess it up?

Guest 2 [00:29:34] Not, not to that extent. That I wasn't going to take my chances. And so I approached everything very carefully. And I think a month before when she started chemo again in October. Yeah, July. I asked Carrie if anybody had made funeral arrangements. And it was not the right question.

John Dehlin [00:30:08] Wasn't the right question.

Guest 2 [00:30:11] And I said, let me do some work behind the scenes, just in case. Life insurance and things like that. Just let me. And I realized I crossed the line, not just with my wife. I crossed the line of this isn't the time, this isn't the place, this isn't the right attitude. And so I'm ashamed to say I wasn't on the miracle the same level that everybody else was. And I hoped I was wrong. I wanted to be wrong. And so in order to be wrong, I believed everything. I believed the blessings. I believed everything that they're talking about with Eldon's changes, his experiences, I believed all those things. I wasn't skeptical of those things because that. That was my hope, that that's what. That's the way it's going to be. I was a little nervous about, You know, just. It was just. It was a very serious situation, and. And I didn't want to have any negativity. I wanted only things to be positive.

John Dehlin [00:31:55] I don't know if you heard this part, but it's just. You're reminding me of when Eldon was talking about wanting to have some conversations with Heather but not having the conversation because they didn't want to curse possible outcome. I'm seeing that somehow this. This religious layer is preventing people sometimes

Eldon Kartchner [00:32:17] from fully experiencing what's going on and

John Dehlin [00:32:20] from being authentic with each other.

Eldon Kartchner [00:32:21] Is that prevented us from really experiencing.

Guest 2 [00:32:27] We had to follow the script.

John Dehlin [00:32:28] But instead being not real and distancing

Eldon Kartchner [00:32:31] and not fully being there, we had

Guest 2 [00:32:34] to follow the script that all us good Mormons do.

Jen [00:32:39] I wanted the same thing. I wanted to claim privileged to be a part of the miracle because it was happening. So I wanted to be a part of the group that could praise the heavens for this.

John Dehlin [00:32:53] I'm sorry.

Eldon Kartchner [00:32:54] Which miracle was promised? I think that's important to say that we had all these spiritual promises of miracle. It wasn't just like us deciding this is how we want things to be. We don't want her to die, and so we're gonna have enough faith and bend the will of God. Our experience was, in so many times to be told this will happen.

Guest 2 [00:33:17] We had a family get together in November over at Tyson's house, and Eldon and Heather came over at the beginning of November, and I can't remember what we were doing. We were watching some show, but when everyone was getting up and making Dinner. I sat by. She was sitting on the floor, leaning up against the couch. You were behind her, and you'd gotten up to the kitchen. I sat by and we talked about football, college football.

John Dehlin [00:33:51] What does that mean to you?

Eldon Kartchner [00:33:54] Well,

Guest 2 [00:33:58] I don't know. I think it was. I think the reason it's. It just felt real. It didn't feel, you know, didn't feel like, we're going to get through this. We're going to push through. We're all, you know,

Guest [00:34:17] this is what

Guest 2 [00:34:18] we usually talk about. Let's talk about it now. It was too heavy. The script was too hard to follow. I was looking for more authenticity, less script. But I was afraid. I was afraid of it.

Jen [00:34:48] You're getting real in here, Jason.

Guest 2 [00:34:55] Show your shoes, Jim.

Eldon Kartchner [00:34:59] Moment of breath.

John Dehlin [00:35:00] Yeah, show the shoes. Show the shoes.

Eldon Kartchner [00:35:03] Not that you have to dismiss grief, but sometimes you have to just.

Jen [00:35:06] Sometimes you need a break.

Eldon Kartchner [00:35:07] Part of grieving is laughing, so.

Jen [00:35:09] That's true.

John Dehlin [00:35:10] Okay, so give me shoes. Do they come off?

Jen [00:35:13] Give it to you? No, they don't.

John Dehlin [00:35:16] They accuse him.

Jen [00:35:17] Hate her.

Guest [00:35:21] All right.

Jen [00:35:22] Even when you're in the depths of the stair, you have to look good.

John Dehlin [00:35:24] Sometimes you have to look fabulous.

Jen [00:35:26] Sometimes you don't have to. Don't put that in.

John Dehlin [00:35:31] Put it in.

Jen [00:35:36] I think going along with some of those lines and some of the things

Guest 3 [00:35:39] that you asked Eldon before about,

Jen [00:35:44] you

Guest 3 [00:35:44] know, wasn't it great to maybe have that hope through the whole process? Hope that she was going to live, belief that she was going to live. And in some ways, maybe there's some truth to that, but I have regrets because she's supposed to be here still. So it was okay if I couldn't make it to the zoo with her. It was okay if I didn't make it over to her house on a

Jen [00:36:18] Sunday

Guest 3 [00:36:20] because she was still going to be in my life. There was no question in my mind she was going to be the miracle and she was going to live. But she's not here. And I do think with that particular question, if I were to look back, I wish that I could have lived with more reality. Hope is wonderful, and I still have hope in a lot of things that I don't know if they're true. I wouldn't have known at the time whether or not Heather was going to live. I still could have hoped. I would have always hoped that she would live and that she would be with us. But at the same time, maybe I could have lived with the reality that cancer kills people. And because of that, I need to make These moments all the more special just in case my hopes don't come to fruition. So I think sometimes hope masks things that would be very beneficial and very real.

Jen [00:37:24] My experience was one.

Guest 3 [00:37:26] I have always been one who has had faith on the things that other people say. So growing up, if the prophet said it, it was true. If my parents said it, who I, you know, trusted and loved, then it was true. And I felt the spirit. I know, growing up, but even in the situation with Eldon and Heather, I think most of my belief rested on what. What other people said, you know, other people's priesthood, blessings and. And the spirit that came to Eldon and the answers that he got and the answers that Heather got.

John Dehlin [00:38:04] Pr.

Guest 3 [00:38:04] But that was enough for me. That was enough for me to say, okay, that's it. The miracle's gonna happen and Heather's gonna live, and I will absolutely have faith. And I did. I did have faith. And I was in the same position of being in the room when she died and saying, she's gonna come back. She has to come back, because that's the ending. This is not the ending. And then. It didn't make any sense. Having gone through everything that everybody else has already explained, all the experiences that we had along the way, and then to lose Heather, it didn't make any sense. And then on top of that,

Jen [00:39:09] I

Guest 3 [00:39:10] had to sit there and see my brother go to hell and stay there, because it hurts. And it's so hard. And you can't come back out of that right away sometimes, ever. And I've never experienced that. I've never experienced that level of pain or loss or grief. And I've never seen someone that I loved with my whole heart have to go through that. And it is not okay. So. Some of my difficulty came when all of a sudden, if that's how

Jen [00:40:05] our

Guest 3 [00:40:05] Mormon God works, then he's cruel. Because if he's able to tell you and send you feelings, so be it. Whatever. I'm the sister in law. You don't have to tell me anything. But Eldon deserved better than that. With everything he went through, he deserved to have Heavenly Father tell him to give him a heads up. She's not gonna make it if that's what was gonna happen. And if not, then to me, he just seemed cruel.

Jen [00:40:48] I just.

Guest 3 [00:40:49] I didn't understand, and he wasn't there to pick up the pieces.

Jen [00:41:03] That's what I didn't understand either. You know, my questions afterwards were not so much, why did someone I love die? Or why did God allow someone to die? Because I. I don't think that's a very wise question. I guess lots of people die

Guest 3 [00:41:25] every day.

Jen [00:41:26] You know, it seems kind of immature for me to. To get upset about. About, you know, only the fact of some dying. The thing that I got upset about was why did the Lord tell me that she wouldn't die and that she did die? That's where I came. That's where my confusion came from. It just.

Guest 3 [00:41:48] It felt so very hurtful. And I didn't understand, if Eldon had to lose Heather from the get go, why did he have to lose God at the same time?

Eldon Kartchner [00:41:58] It's horrible.

Guest [00:42:02] And I think talk about sort of this as an event as Heather died and all this happened, but this happened for months afterwards. I think for everybody, where it wasn't an immediate sort of, okay, God question. Everything you've done, it was months of just watching. Elded was in hell.

Jen [00:42:29] Yeah.

Guest [00:42:31] And everything we've ever read, everything that's supposed to happen is there's supposed to be some measure of comfort or. Who is this beautiful, wonderful, merciful being who steps in at your very darkest

Jen [00:42:58] moment

Guest [00:43:01] and carries you and carries you. Where's the footprints in the sand?

Guest 2 [00:43:07] They never came.

Guest [00:43:10] The only footprints in the sand came from a few people around him.

Eldon Kartchner [00:43:14] People.

Guest [00:43:15] And. It was terrible to. To watch Eldon go through this and on a personal level, to see everything that you ever thought was real about God and most beautiful somewhat just fall apart. And if people. It was really hard.

Guest 2 [00:43:48] It was also difficult to watch the Mormon script continued. And the Mormon script is okay. That's all, you know, from the outside in is everyone's supposed to be happy. And so everyone needs to get happier than they are, like, within a week, you know.

John Dehlin [00:44:16] And so because everybody around you, they've made this bargain that the church is the church, you know, they're gonna have that tragic moment. And part of their bargain is that the church is gonna make it all better. So they need you to make sure and reassure them that the bargain that they've made is gonna come through for them when it hits them right. Otherwise they're gonna start wondering what they're investing for.

Eldon Kartchner [00:44:41] People have an inability to mourn. It's too hard. It's too hard to watch. It's too hard to be with. And so I think it's natural, albeit dismissive, but it's pretty natural to listeners. And especially when you have the answer, when you have God's gospel truth, when you have the absolute answer, for heaven's sake, get back your happy. It Is too hard to. What should be said. We know the plan of salvation, so yay, you get to see her again. Get your happy. That came from all over the place. And I was too angry to hear that God was giving me comfort and peace, but I was too angry to take it.

Insensitive Comments and the Pain of Grief

Jen [00:45:22] Yeah.

Eldon Kartchner [00:45:23] And I was grieving too much to hear it.

Guest 2 [00:45:25] Well, the. All the. The script came out right. You know, we know that. We know what the script is. You know, script is you're too angry right now. You're angry at God so you can't fill his peace. That's a script. The other script is, you know, it's, we thank goodness we have the plan and we know the plan and we

John Dehlin [00:45:51] can celebrate because all those other people don't have it.

Guest 2 [00:45:54] Those other people don't have it. And so if we're grieving like other people, you know, let's kick it in here. We've got something they don't.

John Dehlin [00:46:04] You're almost stepping on the gift.

Guest 2 [00:46:06] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:46:06] To not take advantage of it. Right.

Guest 3 [00:46:08] Again.

Guest 2 [00:46:08] And so you're the problem here.

John Dehlin [00:46:12] So you're grieving already. You've already lost the person you love and God. And now people are saying.

Guest 2 [00:46:18] And members around them are uncomfortable that they're sad. And so what I think what was eye opening to a lot of the siblings was at the most, insensitive remarks and comments to Eldon's journal and to things were coming from members.

John Dehlin [00:46:41] His website.

Eldon Kartchner [00:46:45] I kept a journal online.

John Dehlin [00:46:49] And members would read it. Yeah.

Guest 2 [00:46:51] And they would say, just, you've got to get over this. You've got to.

John Dehlin [00:46:55] They would comment on his blog.

Guest 2 [00:46:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:57] On his grief blog.

Guest 2 [00:46:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:59] And say.

Guest 2 [00:46:59] Yeah.

Jen [00:47:00] Send him private emails.

Guest 2 [00:47:01] Sending private emails.

Eldon Kartchner [00:47:03] You know, always interesting that the worst of the worst ones were always private emails, as though they somehow knew they shouldn't be saying it.

Guest 2 [00:47:10] I mean, and it was. It was, you know, church is true. The church is true. The church is true. Let's be happy.

Jen [00:47:17] Let's.

Guest 2 [00:47:17] Church is true. And if you don't knock it off, you're making me very uncomfortable.

Eldon Kartchner [00:47:23] Lead your children to hell.

Guest 2 [00:47:24] You'll lead your children to hell. You'll do all these things.

Eldon Kartchner [00:47:26] Only one person said that.

Guest 2 [00:47:28] Well, and so I think it was eye opening because Heather had some, you know, she had some vested friendships other than just assigned friendships. And she. That's a way to say it. And a lot of those people weren't members of the church. And they still come around this house.

Eldon Kartchner [00:47:53] Yeah, they do.

Guest 2 [00:47:55] And they. Three years after that. And we know who they are. And when, you know, they are vested in the relationship, not in making sure that the church comes out looking good.

Eldon Kartchner [00:48:17] And their vestment has nothing to do with Mormonism.

Guest 2 [00:48:22] And so that was kind of eye opening. That isn't an indictment on individuals. That's just one of the real aspects of this particular experience was, I think you were quite taken back of the response, the differences that you saw.

Guest [00:48:49] I was. The most impactful moments, though, is when you see people and as Ellen talked about earlier, talking about, we're praying for you, and that's such a response that I was doing the same. And.

Eldon Kartchner [00:49:15] It became a very, very bad problem

Guest [00:49:18] when I realized that I was being so critical of members because I was seeing non members just do so much. And there. And again, there were some members. This is about people. There are people. But in general, the culture, I believe, goes along the lines of what Jason's been explaining, where you just say, look, you've been sad enough, now you need to get happier. We've been praying for you all this. And I was horrified to see that this gospel that I embraced my whole entire life, that I loved so much, that I thought was the most wonderful, compassionate way of life that could possibly be lived, was not and I was not. And it scared me. I realized that these people that I respected and loved and cared about so much, that could not relate to Eldon and would not go into the depths of anguish that he was experiencing, reflected somewhat on me. And I said, I will not allow that to be reflected in my children. So whether we find a way, find our answers in the church or out, there are some things within this paradigm that I've grown up in that are massively, massively wrong. So got to find some,

John Dehlin [00:51:17] got to

Guest [00:51:17] find a better place, got to become a better person than I was. And I thought, I thought I had everything and I found myself deficient this whole year. When Carrie talks about regrets, I look back and in the three years since Heather's been gone, the stories that Elvin tells, like, I didn't know about Heather, I didn't know that, I didn't know that. I didn't know she was that way. Because not not only this life, but the next life, we think we are so, so incredibly vested that that day to day things are not so important because we have such a long range scope going on, that dealing and embracing and being with people in the moment right now is just not as important people as the path. You're talking as the path, the people are not as important. And that was a major Paradigm shift. When I said this is. I've been wrong. This is wrong. This is really wrong.

Jen [00:52:42] So we're saying the word vested a lot. I think that should be the drinking word.

John Dehlin [00:52:46] Drinking words.

Eldon Kartchner [00:52:49] Take a shot.

Guest [00:52:53] Yeah.

Eldon Kartchner [00:52:54] I think the plan of salvation can like it can become. I'm not saying it is for everybody, but it too easily can become this idea of maternal family permission not to be in your own life to just do all the stuff that you're supposed to do instead of being really, fully, truly connected to people. Spending your time on your relationships with people and what they mean to you and who they are and investing in that, finding your joy there instead of in accomplishing. I mean, I want to admit that I think that one of the principles or intents behind things like having a calling is to accomplish what I'm saying, but its way it just doesn't happen.

John Dehlin [00:53:46] Yeah. I'm thinking the average active Mormon is thinking, I'm righteous, I serve, I love my fellow man. Families are the most important thing. And this is the track and it's a genuine track and it's a fulfilling track. It's a meaningful track and I want it and it's good. Right. Well, maybe it's true. Right. Maybe it's true. Maybe there, and probably there are people for whom that is true. But you're saying that there might also be people who think that at times.

Guest [00:54:29] I think people don't consciously make that choice. I think it's just part of how you absorb. Yeah. You know, the way that you live. I don't, I. You know, I brought this up once with my parents and my mom was horrified that. What do you mean? I would dare think, not think about people. And I don't think it's a conscious choice. I don't think people go about in their day to day and say, I'm going to neglect somebody or some relationship or something because.

John Dehlin [00:55:04] Or be less authentic or be less for you, be less sincere, less vested.

Guest [00:55:09] All of us felt very authentic from where we were, from where we are now. It's full of holes for you, for me, for us.

How to Support Someone Who Is Grieving

John Dehlin [00:55:32] So Eldon, real quickly, and this is kind of putting you on the spot, but for someone who, someone who's experienced grief and you had some family members. I'm assuming that the four people here were there for you each in important ways. And let's say that you were to use each of these four delightful people as some examples of how to be there for someone who's grieving. What if you went to each person and maybe just Shared a little bit about how their support, what their support meant to you or what was unique or meaningful to you about each of their individual support in terms of how it fit a piece of support for

Guest 2 [00:56:22] the grieving you were experiencing.

John Dehlin [00:56:23] Does that make sense to model for others ways in which we can be there for those who are grieving?

Eldon Kartchner [00:56:35] Well, for all of them. Heather and I figured this out during the time that she had cancer, where there was so many things to be done and so much that needed done, and suddenly she was so out of commission and I was trying to help her. And we have three little kids, including baby, like all this stuff. We realized that quite often there's such an important principle. And I think it's important to tell people what you need and what you want. I love communication that way. But we were being asked all the time, so what do you need? What do you need? What can I do for you? What can I do for you? What can I do for you? Which is, you know, like this typical at the end of the home teaching visit.

Guest 2 [00:57:16] What can we do?

Eldon Kartchner [00:57:17] Can we do anything for you? No. Thanks.

Guest [00:57:18] Bye.

Eldon Kartchner [00:57:19] And it got so tiring so, so fast because I realized we are kind of drowning here and all that's happening. And people are asking, tell you figure out what I can do for you, and you let me know and I'll decide if I'm going to do that. And it was really so much better, so, so, so much more helpful for people to look around and say, I figured out what I can do for you. I'm just gonna do that is all. I think I see a need and I'm doing it. And so in their own ways, all of them did that.

Guest 2 [00:58:00] And the other siblings.

Eldon Kartchner [00:58:02] Oh, yeah.

Jen [00:58:03] Did you establish how many siblings there are?

Eldon Kartchner [00:58:05] I did. There's eight of us, so seven siblings. And there's. They all did that in their own

John Dehlin [00:58:13] way,

Eldon Kartchner [00:58:16] like, she's not even here. But Tyson alluded to these emails the last week of Heather's life. My youngest sister Annie started up an email chain just to all the siblings. I mean, it essentially said, hello, siblings. You know, we know that Heather needs a miracle, but I really just feel like Elder needs our help. We have got to send him messages that we're here. And I mean, they started flying, and when they started, we were actually in the hospital and it was 1 and 2 and 3 in the morning, and they were still coming because these people were staying up all night just to try and send me more. To sacrifice some of your own comfort or time, I think is A really big deal makes people feel important. The other thing that I want to say about before, like, getting individual, is. I felt this analogy that still works for me about the grieving process, because losing Heather was a free fall for me. I just felt like I got shoved over the cliff and was just waiting to splat. And I kept falling, and it kept getting over and I kept falling. But I felt like there were all these people, these individuals, not a church, but definitely individuals of all kinds, some Mormons, some not, who were all doing what they could to help me. And it really felt like a million butterflies holding on to my clothes while I fell, so that I was falling just a little bit slower, because I think the efforts of a butterfly cannot keep you from falling. But if you get a whole bunch of them doing whatever they can, you fall a little slower.

Guest 2 [01:00:21] And it helps.

Eldon Kartchner [01:00:23] It helps. Anything helps. So instead of order, I'm trying to let go in what comes in my memory. I remember one time. I mean, part of this whole process over the last three years has been how do I deal with Heather being gone? How do I deal with now, what

John Dehlin [01:00:45] I'm supposed to do?

Eldon Kartchner [01:00:46] I'm a single dad. I have three little children. I've got to figure out how to work, how to take care of them. I mean, so much stuff. I lost my concept of lost. So it was this spiritual crash just so much, all at the same time. In addition to realizing if my life is going to go forward, if anyone's ever going to love me for who I am again, now people have to know who I am. So it's time, like, I have to come out to the people who matter to me. And so I started coming out to

John Dehlin [01:01:18] my siblings before Heather's passing, after. You didn't come out to your siblings until after. Nobody knew? No.

Eldon Kartchner [01:01:31] I kept it my business. So she was the only one that could, you know, fully love me. Except for my parents. I had told my parents, who

Jen [01:01:40] I

Eldon Kartchner [01:01:40] can't say good things for their reaction, but I don't think that's important at this juncture.

Guest [01:01:45] I just.

Eldon Kartchner [01:01:46] But as I began to tell my siblings, There was a moment where I was trying to also explain my spiritual journey to someone very close to us all. And she was really rejecting it and kind of rejecting me and being really harsh.

John Dehlin [01:02:14] That you were losing your faith.

Eldon Kartchner [01:02:15] That I was losing my faith and gay.

John Dehlin [01:02:17] That I was saying that I was

Eldon Kartchner [01:02:18] gay because this was not okay and it was not acceptable. And we were actually over at Jason's house at the Howard's, and I Remember?

John Dehlin [01:02:29] Just kidding.

Eldon Kartchner [01:02:30] I have to go now. And having a deep sigh and walking out to my car and having Jason, all he did was come outside, knock on my window, and I rolled down the window, and he just said, I need to tell you they are wrong.

John Dehlin [01:02:53] I need to tell you they're wrong.

Eldon Kartchner [01:02:58] And I am telling you it's just all I needed in the moment, really. Not all, but it mattered. It mattered to have him come and purposefully tell me their judgment of you is wrong, period. And so, like, just verbally, like, standing with me where I'm at was helpful. I realized that sometimes if someone's grieving the loss of somebody, you don't agree with them. Maybe you can't do that.

John Dehlin [01:03:31] I don't know.

Eldon Kartchner [01:03:37] And Jen. Jen has become my bestie. Because I think from what I'm hearing, you boarded the Miracle boat and stayed for the family like the miracle never happened. But you were now on board with us more than before. And so there we were. And so I leaned a lot on Jen because she can be very practical and she can be very helpful when you need to.

Guest 2 [01:04:13] To laugh

Eldon Kartchner [01:04:15] very much. But also, Jen was really good at saying, I was thinking about Heather today, and I had this thought about her and something, you know, this, that, or the other of something that she did or she said or that I missed about her. But she would say it out of the blue, as though I wasn't the only one with missing her and I didn't have to carry missing her all

Guest 2 [01:04:44] alone

Eldon Kartchner [01:04:47] and that it was okay to bring her up. I mean, she does this still. She still does this. Bringing up Heather to me when I haven't brought her up to her, as though Heather's still real and still part of us and that it helps the grief not be so alone. I think that's pretty much the theme across the board of what people can do. There's physical, literal assistance that is vital, and it really helps. But mostly it's about finding a way to let people know that you're still with them and what they're going through. That's what I think mourning with those that mourn is. Tyson. Tyson has helped me, like, countless times. Tyson's helped with physical things. If something is wrong, he has come and fixed it. Or when I am completely behind because I am a single parent, he has come over and mowed my lawn and just does it or takes care of things. He does that all the time. But also, Tyson has been with me in some of the really hard, emotional things about the church and losing what was so comfortable before and what felt so good before and is now just so lost about what I believed. Not that there isn't goodness about what I believe now, because there is. But Tyson, When Heather first died, he. Kind of shocked us all because he's so quiet and passive about things. And there were a few people in those first few days that got fairly critical, like, came into the home and were there trying to be supportive, but instead got really critical, and I kind of lost it. Like, that's, you know, that is not okay. And I was out of my mind with grief. So I kind of yelled at them. And I just want you to do

John Dehlin [01:07:34] what I want to do.

Eldon Kartchner [01:07:35] And, like, there was some criticism about me wanting. Not wanting the bishop to conduct. And you need to let the bishop do what he's going to do, and you need to be obedient to him and don't think about doing it at a different church building or whatever. And I really got upset. And so they just left, just completely left.

Guest [01:07:57] And

Eldon Kartchner [01:08:00] Tyson drove after them,

John Dehlin [01:08:08] went and

Eldon Kartchner [01:08:08] found them, sat them down and said, you go back to that house, you do whatever he says, and you shut up about it. And sometimes you need someone to take care of you when you just can't do it.

Guest [01:08:30] And he did.

Eldon Kartchner [01:08:34] And sometimes it's not that you need someone to take care of you or to talk about it or, like, tell you stuff. Sometimes you just need someone with you.

John Dehlin [01:08:42] And, like, the.

Eldon Kartchner [01:08:44] There's. Oh, my gosh, it can go on all day. And so I feel like I'm trying to select a really good example for each person. But Carrie. Carrie just went with me a week later when I drove down to the mortuary and had to pick out a headstone and pick, well, what stone do I want and what's nice and what shape do I want? Things that it's horrible for anybody to do. No one at my age should be doing it. It's not like she had something to offer. It's just that I told her, I can't. I can't go do this alone. I can't do it. So, of course she went with me.

Guest [01:09:39] Of course.

Eldon Kartchner [01:09:42] I just think physically or mentally, spiritually grieving, you need. You need people to be with you, sweat. And they have all been with me. My other siblings have been with me. And it's hard. Like they say, it's so hard to watch somebody hurt so much and go through so much and for it to never end. And it's so hard to feel like you can't fix them, especially when you so Just want to fix it. So I am grateful that they would just be with me. And they. I do not require that they believe the same things that I do. Spiritually, they don't.

Jen [01:10:34] But

Eldon Kartchner [01:10:38] the way that they have been with me truly spiritually, is that they would consider and be influenced by my experience. I didn't need them to believe the same thing or end up where I ended up. I really needed them to say, yeah, what you went through is really valid and it really matters, and I

John Dehlin [01:11:08] have

Eldon Kartchner [01:11:08] to consider it as real and decide what I'll do with it instead of dismissing it. And so I feel like in the spiritual journey, they were really with me too, just because they would let my experience matter to them. No matter where it led them, it affected them.

John Dehlin [01:11:31] So let's talk about that for a second. I'm going to go. I'm going to go down the line. So I think we're getting better as a society and within the church. I think we're getting better at putting people first and just loving the individual, regardless of the differences. I think modernity is forcing us to because people are losing their faith and people are leaving the church and people are coming out as gay. And I think parents are having to learn to love, or siblings or in laws are having to learn to love, even when someone makes a different choice. But I think each of you represents someone who probably still had some beliefs and some convictions in the church, you know, because you guys were all on the boat through the death except for Jason a little bit, but. But then within a little bit of time, within a little bit of time, Eldon's coming at you with, I don't believe in the church anymore, and I'm gay. Right? And there are lots of people that are going to be having these conversations in the future because these numbers are growing of people coming out as gay, and these numbers are growing of people who are losing their faith in Mormonism. It's just true. And every family member is gonna. Every believing family member is gonna have that opportunity to say, do I kind of turn away and hold to the church that I believe in? And that gives me comfort. Sometimes they feel like they have to choose. Like, I either have to stick, I have to just kind of dehumanize this person and otherize them and kind of close them off and go back on script. They feel like they either have to do that to stay loyal to their church or, like, betray their church and show that love and support. I don't know why people feel like they have to choose, but there's many people who do. And so I want to just go down the line. Start with Kerry. And what was it for you that prepared you or enabled you to not turn away from Eldon? Because for whatever religious or spiritual reasons that other people might choose to turn away?

Jen [01:14:06] I just love my family.

Guest 3 [01:14:10] I don't know. I don't know specifically what my parents did or what my siblings did. I don't really know that I can pinpoint something. I just love my family. And I've often joked that I would love nothing more than to have a big commune where we all had our individual houses, but, you know, on like an acre of land, that would be super nice. And that way everyone's kids could come to my house on this day and Eldon's house on that day and Jen's house on that day, and you just hardly wouldn't even know whose kid was whose kid, and we would just all be there together.

Guest 2 [01:14:52] We have different dreams.

Guest 3 [01:14:54] We do.

Eldon Kartchner [01:14:56] That's not as exciting for Jensen.

Jen [01:14:59] Poor guy, so. Oh, it's true.

Guest 3 [01:15:04] He probably should have taken my last name on marriage.

Eldon Kartchner [01:15:07] But

Jen [01:15:12] I don't know.

Guest 3 [01:15:13] I can't pinpoint. I just love my family and I love to be with them. I love to get together with them. We love to do things together. It's the best. They are my best friends. They are my best friends, and I will absolutely choose them any day over anything. So don't mess with my family.

Jen [01:15:38] That's how I feel.

Guest 3 [01:15:42] Why do you choose my family?

Eldon Kartchner [01:15:46] Yes.

Jen [01:15:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:15:48] Elders specifically.

Jen [01:15:49] Correct.

Guest 2 [01:15:52] It's like extensions of. I have to choose a family. Choose Elden. And that's part of the family.

Jen [01:16:00] That's right.

Guest 3 [01:16:03] I,

Guest 2 [01:16:07] You know, I think my personal face was a little more nuanced over the years.

Guest [01:16:14] A lot.

Guest 2 [01:16:15] A lot nuanced.

John Dehlin [01:16:17] Where'd that come from?

Guest 2 [01:16:20] Historical issues. I had. Studied a lot. It kept to myself, but I knew the issues.

John Dehlin [01:16:33] So the difficult church historical issues were there. And what did they do to you?

Guest 2 [01:16:43] They forced me to kind of put everything, you know, to box it up. And so I always loved the church. I loved all my experiences in the church and friendships in the church. Missionary, companions, all those things. Great, great mission experience. Would still probably do it again. Probably wouldn't cross sight as much, but it would do it again.

Guest [01:17:11] It was just.

Guest 2 [01:17:11] Everything was great, positive, nothing but. Too many things to learn about that just became troublesome and very hard to rectify. And so in order to stay positive and to embrace the community I loved, I needed a new one. And so nuancing it Allowed me to have, I think, some personal takes. Where I didn't have to be as orthodox in how I carved up my worldview. But it took a while to get there before. Eldon told each of his siblings individually. He didn't tell their in laws.

Guest [01:18:13] Except for Jen, who's with.

Eldon Kartchner [01:18:15] Yeah, Jen's kind of elevated. I would tell them and say, and you can choose what you want to do.

Guest 2 [01:18:21] Jen's got elevated status.

Eldon Kartchner [01:18:24] She makes pies.

Guest 2 [01:18:25] But, you know, I think Eldon knew.

Guest [01:18:29] I think Eldon knew.

Guest 2 [01:18:30] I struggled with the church's position on.

Eldon Kartchner [01:18:33] There was a point years before that Jason, like, said the word Mormon stories.

John Dehlin [01:18:39] So you guys were secretly in the closet listening to Mormon stories, but didn't

Guest 2 [01:18:42] know I didn't listen to Mormon stories. There was. There was a little. I did some of your older stuff. I did.

Faith Transition After Loss

John Dehlin [01:18:51] But you read a lot.

Guest 2 [01:18:52] I read a lot. And I became, I think, more troubled. When Prop 8 came around, I became a little bit more troubled. I was definitely troubled. They were all over at the house watching general conference during President Packer's talk. And they. I'm going to say this on tape. So you guys are going to.

John Dehlin [01:19:18] This is the talk where President Packer said, why would a loving heavenly father make someone.

Guest 2 [01:19:23] This is before Eldon has told anybody.

Eldon Kartchner [01:19:25] But after Heather died.

Guest 2 [01:19:26] But after Heather died. And so we're all. They're all over at the house watching Joan conference. And they liked. I'm gonna put this on tape. You guys pause it so that they don't listen. Have to listen to the choir. They not have to. So they can fast forward through the choir.

Eldon Kartchner [01:19:43] We don't listen to the choir. I don't love the hymns.

Guest 2 [01:19:47] So they fast forward through it. Well, to me, that delays too long. So I go into a different room and watch it. So I'm usually 30 minutes ahead of them. And so the talk came through and I struggled with it. And so I turned the TV off and came downstairs and went in the kitchen.

Eldon Kartchner [01:20:13] But you had a cousin you loved that you had already thought about this way.

Guest 2 [01:20:16] Yes. The family.

John Dehlin [01:20:18] Yeah.

Eldon Kartchner [01:20:19] A cousin who was gay who Jason had already thought, I love him. And this is not okay.

Guest 2 [01:20:26] I'm speaking for you.

Guest [01:20:27] Sorry. Right.

Guest 2 [01:20:28] And so I just processed. Well, it just was. It's just not something I'm real comfortable with, you know, just personally, it seems that we could do better, and it seems like we should be doing better. And so I came downstairs and I banged some plates around in the kitchen, and they were sitting in the living room and I said, I'm going to set the rest of this one out. And the talk came on and Eldon was on the couch and he was listening to it. And he looked at me and I said, it gets a little worse. And so it just. I don't know. When you have to nuance things a little bit anyway, I think you get a different perspective. So that perspective was there. And I think when Elda told Carrie, she came home and we talked about it, she said, I kind of feel like I've been prepared to hear this news. We've not disagreed on this issue, but

Jen [01:21:44] you

Guest 2 [01:21:46] had a different view on it than I would have expected over the last few years. And I'm glad we talked about it. So I feel like. So I think I was already there.

John Dehlin [01:22:10] We talk about church history and troubling church history like it's dangerous and to be avoided. But it sounds like for you it cracked you open to become a more compassionate and tolerant person. Is that true?

Guest 2 [01:22:26] I think it can break you if you. Well, that's. I. Maybe that's not the right word.

Guest 3 [01:22:37] It can be the right word.

Guest 2 [01:22:38] Yeah, it can.

John Dehlin [01:22:39] It can.

Guest 2 [01:22:40] Well, it can. It can shake up your worldview. The, you know, we've assimilated the story, the narrative, and we're playing for keeps. And when that narrative doesn't align with the historical accounts, it's devastating. And so you can go 500 different directions with that. You can. And one way I was going with it was I love the community. This is where I've been raised. I want to maintain family relationships. I've had nothing but positive experiences. Personally. I am a wife, upper middle class male, raised in a very good family. I've never been marginalized, so it worked. But the historical facts kind of speak for themselves. And so I had to nuance it to feel comfortable with it, to still get something positive out of it. I have to be honest and say that. But Carrie has always been just faith, 100%. No need to question anything, no need to look into anything. If it's not in gospel principles, there's no reason to read it. But once she got rattled, then she wanted to know. She wanted, what is priesthood? Blessed lessons, what is the narrative? What is the real story with restoration of the priesthood? I want to know it all. What is the real story with. So we started to discuss everything. And it was liberating for me to be able to now have these conversations with the person I love in a very safe environment. And, and so I think the more we learn, the more we're open to the Less dogmatic. We are, let's put it that way. It has to become more about humanity and less about dogma. Maybe that's the best way to put it. It has to.

Jen [01:25:20] Or dogs.

Eldon Kartchner [01:25:23] No dogs.

Guest [01:25:24] Just stuff.

Jen [01:25:28] It has been at least 30 minutes since a joke. I'm sorry, you're right.

John Dehlin [01:25:31] You're right. And we're on the same page.

Guest 2 [01:25:34] So for things to work in a positive manner for us, it has to be more about humanity than the dogma. So when two principles, when two values clash, for me, whether it's, you know, whether it's love or charity or loyalty to a belief system, I've got to choose the other. That's the only way I can make it work. Sometimes there's clashes, sometimes there's not. Which I think is the way the gospel was supposed to be.

John Dehlin [01:26:11] Tyson.

Guest [01:26:14] For me, watching Eldon spiral, not only after losing Heather, but losing his belief system, I was slower than he was doing that.

Eldon Kartchner [01:26:34] But

Guest [01:26:37] knowing Eldon my entire life, the most important thing for me was just saying he's not trying to force anything that he's believing on me. But I know my brother, and I'm not going to just dismiss anything that he says or experiences just because it threatens what I believed. I don't have to accept it. He wasn't trying to force it on me, and I never, ever internalized that. I have to accept what he's going through relative to his faith. I don't have to accept that just to accept him. But I'm not going to just dismiss it because I know he. And ironically, perhaps the whole family, all the siblings would all have agreed that Eldon was the most spiritual person among us, the most apt to get clear answers to be. I think it was difficult to see him spiral, but I couldn't dismiss it. I just. I know him, and therefore, that was enough.

Eldon Kartchner [01:28:19] Good job, everybody. Focusant. See how good. Shia, you have have to laugh when you're grieving. It's important. JLo is the bestest.

John Dehlin [01:28:33] Were you a believer?

Jen [01:28:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:28:37] Was there a point where he made you uncomfortable?

Jen [01:28:41] No,

Guest [01:28:49] Not much makes Jen uncomfortable.

Jen [01:28:51] People, I think. Let me start over. When Heather was still here, it was always Eldon and Heather. Heather had Elden, and Eldon had her. He needed her and he had her. So, you know, that was kind of it. And then when she was gone, I realized how much Elden, you still needed somebody around. And I feel like just by default, I was there. We did stuff together with our kids all the time. We drove together. We fit. At the time. Five of our kids in the same car and we would drive to whatever we were doing. We ran errands together and spent that time in the car talking together. Because there, there was a hole in your life now. And to quote the award winning movie, Robots see a need, feel a need. Elvin had a need in his life and there was an empty seat in his car now. So I just went with him, places in the car.

Guest [01:30:26] And

Jen [01:30:29] I think, to me, the gospel has always been about individuals, or it should be about individuals. I think the most important thing is individuals. And if I can interject a different story here, I remember one time in a church meeting in Relief Society after Heather died, and I was still thinking and having problems with the topic of prayer, among other things. And the Relief Society lesson topic was on prayer and all sorts of ridiculous comments were coming up.

Guest 2 [01:31:07] And

Jen [01:31:10] someone said in the class, prayer is just like magic. You just tell heavenly Father what you want and he just gives it to you. It's like magic. And I turned to the poor girl next to me and I said, that's it, I'm out of here. I stood up and left the room and I just had to pull myself together and think about it. Four minutes later, a handful of ladies walk out of the door, walk out of the Relief Society room and come find me in the hallway. And they say, you could just leave like that. And they let me know that they stood up for the other side. One of them said they made a very. They made a very specific comment about, no, prayer is not like magic.

Guest 3 [01:32:03] It's actually

Jen [01:32:07] not. She said, no, prayer is not like magic. It's something else entirely. So they followed me out of that room and hugged me and talked to me. Me that I had confided in a few people from church about what was going on and the hard time I was having and the questions and thoughts I was having. And so they knew I was having a hard time and they followed me and they were with me at that point. So while some of the policies and teachings and doctrines over the church are hard for me, it's also very hard for me to lead these individuals. I think that's where the strength is. I think the church knows that the strength is in the individuals. I think that's a part of why the I'm a Mormon campaign is going on. People relate to individual human stories. So. So by the time Eldon had the conversation with us about that he's gay, I. I was already in with Eldon. He was my best friend and there wasn't anything to work out in my mind.

John Dehlin [01:33:35] All right, so it's time to close. We're going to close in a semi typical Mormon stories fashion. It seems like to make movement from one place to another, you kind of have to give up one position and then trust and walk forward to claim another position. Because really the whole point of this is to help others deal with grief or those who are greedy better, or deal with those who are same sex attracted better, or deal with their loved ones better, or look at their faith a different way. And all of those things require movement. But movement's scary, right? Giving up one position for another one is scary. And so the final question, I just wanted to have each of you and we'll start with Jen and we'll end with Eldon. And if you want to close also with a little bit of what you believe now or anything you want to add to what you've already said, what have you given up? Whether it's a belief or a position or something, what have you given up? But what have you gained as a benefit to what you've given up?

What We Have Gained and Lost Through Grief

Guest [01:34:51] Start with Jim.

Jen [01:34:58] In the first couple months after Heather died, I remember having a conversation with my parents about it. You know, I had. Talking to him about. I'm so confused. I don't know anymore. About prayer, about blessings, about the priesthood, about the Holy Ghost, about feeling the Spirit, about Heavenly Father, about my relationship with him, about what God is or is not. I just don't know. I just don't know anymore. The same things. And I was just wondering out loud and just thinking out loud about what God is for me now and talking to my mom about that. It so happens that my mother lost her dad when she was young. The church and prayer and Heavenly Father was, was a source of strength for her. And so during that conversation, we didn't understand each other. I think. I didn't understand that by me questioning my relationship with deity that it was kind of a personal attack on her personal deity. She didn't understand that her source of strength was my source of confusion. So I don't know how well we connected during that conversation. During the next. During the next few months, we were writing emails back and forth. We were talking family talk time about gospel topics, trying to figure things out. What does this mean? What does the priesthood mean now? What are we going to do about all this now? We have to do something about it. And I remember six months after that, looking back on those emails, thinking back to how I was, you know, me, six months before that, after Heather died and Thinking that I was really struggling back then. I feel like I was swimming and getting nowhere. And what I really should have done back then is just take a break, go in a metaphorical cave, dig a hole, climb in whatever the metaphor is, and just take a break for a while. Just have some dark, silent, quiet time, not try and figure it out, not try and be at peace and not try and fight anything either. Just kind of go in a cave and just take a break from all that. And that was what I needed as part of my grieving process. My grief and my mourning needed that. So that's one thing that I learned or that I gained is that I needed that. I gave myself permission to do that, to take a step back and not to try and figure out a new path. It was okay to just be in the dark for a while and to just be silent. I think I gained other things, too, as far as the relationship that we had, Tyson and I, as we've been going along these three years, Sometimes Tyson would go ahead further in the spiritual journey than I wanted to. I think we've pretty much always

John Dehlin [01:39:20] been

Jen [01:39:21] the same, both kind of in whatever people. So we both have pretty much been the same. And I found a lot of comfort in that. And I thought, this is good, me and you. This is the way we should be. And so when he started creeping forward spiritually and I wasn't ready to move on, that scared me a little bit at first. I didn't know if I wanted him to move forward like that without me, because we always have to be together. Aren't we supposed to be yoked together? But that was okay. So there was. There was a little while of a little bit of scariness, and we made it okay. And then there were where I went further ahead spiritually on the path, and I don't know how much that freaked you out or not, but I learned and I gained the thought that we could be different. We could still be individual. We didn't have to be exactly the same place at the same time, but we could still be support for each other. And that's great.

John Dehlin [01:40:36] Thank you.

Jen [01:40:36] The end. No jokes,

Eldon Kartchner [01:40:40] man.

Guest [01:40:45] Quick. When you say what you gained or what you've lost, can I. Quick. I think the church has lost a huge, huge, wonderful person in Jin. I don't want you say that. Totally lost her, but I can't say that.

Jen [01:40:58] I don't want to say that.

Guest [01:41:00] No. And I'm not saying that, but.

Jen [01:41:01] Okay, start over then,

Guest [01:41:06] because. Okay. So Janet actually does still attend church more so than I. I don't want

Jen [01:41:13] to say that either.

Guest [01:41:14] Well, he can own his own.

Jen [01:41:18] When I.

Guest [01:41:19] Here's what.

Guest 2 [01:41:21] Why don't you just tell them that Jim wants to control your relationship and be done.

Eldon Kartchner [01:41:25] She is now a strong feminist than she was before.

Guest [01:41:29] When Jen walks out of a meeting or even in the past talks, she's giving and anything. Jen is a breath of fresh air for church, for people who usually feel you have to just conform to a certain way. And even though Jen believes she still. Just the breath of fresh air, I think that's just. Do you want to stay happily within the church? That's wonderful. But being authentic and being just a little bit spicy, not quite.

Jen [01:42:13] Do you want to smell my breath in fresh air right now?

Eldon Kartchner [01:42:17] Case in point.

Guest [01:42:19] All right, so total aside that I'll cut out.

Jen [01:42:22] Okay. I forgot one thing to say.

Guest [01:42:25] Gain and loss. Go ahead.

Jen [01:42:26] Do you want to say use first? And I'll go back to mine. I have one more thing that I go. Okay. I think for me, the gospel has always been simple. That's the way I was raised. Not a lot of complicated things, just simple. And then I feel like maybe there was a lot of confusion and complexity going on that maybe I took on in my life the past two years or maybe that was kind of thrust upon me. But I feel like now I can go. So I feel like now I can live my own personal gospel and it again, is simple. I can have my own simple life gospel. Let me say that a little bit louder.

Guest 3 [01:43:25] Love. I don't know.

Jen [01:43:28] Is that good? Should I say it again?

Eldon Kartchner [01:43:30] Move on to 10?

Jen [01:43:31] I don't know the word.

John Dehlin [01:43:34] Okay.

Guest [01:43:36] Gain and lost. Lost and gained. The. Of the things. I think there's certain things that you can maybe talk about surrounding the church that aren't as threatening to people. But the. The thing that I feel is the most impactful thing that I've lost is probably for most people, the most dangerous, terrible. I have lost a personal Jesus, a savior, a Christ who was just everything that my life revolved around. People again, this is just me. Not everybody who goes through a faith crisis comes to the end of not believing in the Savior anymore. But the Savior that I knew several years ago and the one that I believe existed now is very different. And that was. That was a terrible journey. I've cried many, many times just getting there. But. If I were to say what I've gained, I have to be careful how I say this because people employ the characteristics that we are taught from Jesus Christ and do it beautifully. And there are people who are just exemplary in compassion and the way they treat other people. And I take nothing away. I think that the Savior's life, as we are taught can just be beautiful, beautiful example to follow. I take nothing away from that.

John Dehlin [01:45:58] However,

Guest [01:46:00] looking at other people who don't believe the same way I do and not feeling that they are missing out on something or. Or are lesser as people or have lesser lives because they don't have that, that's what I've gained. I can embrace anyone, and that's not the right word. You, you can totally believe in embracing one, but I don't have any sort of idea that you are missing something in your life. You can be a completely whole person and believe whatever you want to believe. And that's been very, very wonderful to feel like you're part of the whole human family. I think that's one wonderful thing that I've gained.

John Dehlin [01:47:10] Instead of feeling chosen, you're not chosen. You just join the human.

Guest [01:47:14] You're part of everyone else. People are good and they can be good people. Not because they're part of your people. They're just good people. And that's wonderful.

Eldon Kartchner [01:47:34] Jen said, do you want to embrace me right now?

Guest [01:47:37] Jen is good people. We knew that.

Eldon Kartchner [01:47:40] Jen is good people. Go, Jay.

Guest 2 [01:47:43] My turn. What I've lost over the last 10 years or so, I think it's the

John Dehlin [01:47:53] comfort

Guest 2 [01:47:57] knowing all the answers, certainty, certainty and what I've gained, I think it's very similar. I think it's the comfort in knowing I don't know all the answers and. Just living a little bit more authentically within that structure. That's what's it for me.

Guest 3 [01:48:32] I lost my belief that God intervenes in our lives. As my journey took me through, I was just something that no longer made sense to me. But I gained then the thought process that says I am very much in control of my life. And not only do I have the ability to make a change for myself and others around me, but I also have a great responsibility to do that. If my belief is that there is no intervention from above, so to speak, then the intervention is here. So I need to make a difference in this world. I need to make this world a better place for other people. And that actually feels really, really good to me. Not that I didn't have some of that before, but it's different for me now somehow.

John Dehlin [01:49:38] Empowering a little bit.

Jen [01:49:39] It is.

Guest 3 [01:49:41] It is actually very empowering. And the other thing is I. In losing my maybe belief in dogma and the belief that everything has to Be a certain way. I think I have become a more. Much more tolerant person, even for little things. I think in feeling that just as an example, that there is a certain way that you should dress, then it meant that if I saw someone who was not dressed in the way that I thought they should have been dressed, my mind automatically makes a judgment call, even if I'm not intending to be judgmental. Some of that, I think, is just human. But I think that I have been able to let go of some of those judgments, which allows me to be a more accepting and loving person to everybody, regardless of, you know, who they are, how they think, what they wear. And I've really liked that, to become more of that person.

Jen [01:50:55] So it's been a good thing.

John Dehlin [01:51:00] All right, Owen, bring us home.

Eldon Kartchner [01:51:05] Well, I think first. Amen. So I don't need to say things to. Because this is all true for me, too. Everything that all four of them have said, also speaking for me. And I also think for those four of us that we haven't necessarily brought up, but we have gained in this process a beautiful feminism, like the beauty and amazingness of women and really shifting our thoughts about that in a really good way. Also, on a personal level, I think, well, it's always from everything I've talked about that I want to say, what did I lose? I lost everything, but I didn't lose everything. But it feels so giant that that's almost the word I want to go with, except what I didn't lose is so much part of what I gained. I also want to say I shifted because I lost. Like Tyson, I lost the Savior. What Jesus used to be to me is no more. I don't believe in the Savior concept. I don't believe we need it because we are good enough. But I remember very clearly and working and working and working in my mind and my soul, all of these things out all the time about having an experience one day of realizing that, you know, Jesus was. I didn't. The savior role didn't work for me. But he's an amazing mentor because the story of Jesus Christ, especially the Gethsemane and the road to Golgotha and his whole crucifixion, I mean, no matter how historically accurate it may or may not be as it's depicted, the story that we have depicts a man who was in pain with a great deal of grace, who really showed. If you have to hurt, here's the way to do it authentically and still lovingly. And I love that. I love that example. So I gained a better understanding from a sort of a different standpoint. In addition to all this that I gained, I do believe, I so believe in evolution. Not the Darwinism kind, although I do. But we change, we grow. I believe in the power and importance of growing spiritually, mentally, of just truly letting ourselves evolve. I think that when we really love people, we really, we evolve and we let them evolve, but we really evolve because we love them, because we will consider other people, we will let their experience matter. And that lets us change for the better all the time. I also believe, I would say I will share this experience to wrap it kind of a two part experience together. That's brought me to what I really believe. When I. On our first anniversary after Heather had died, July 28, which was exactly nine months after she passed away, obviously it was a horrible day.

Guest 2 [01:55:01] Horrible.

Eldon Kartchner [01:55:02] It was awful. It was hard. And I spent it grieving horribly. And I decided for the first time since her death because I was still really working through things and really trying to make it work and trying to figure out what had just happened. And I decided to go to the temple where we were married, which was here in Denver. But I wanted to attend the temple and see what that felt like and what that was for me on the day that we had been married

Guest 2 [01:55:32] 10 years before.

John Dehlin [01:55:35] So

Eldon Kartchner [01:55:38] I went down to the Denver temple and went in and sat just past the recommend desk in the foyer, trying to get myself really to go do a temple session. And I just couldn't do it. My heart was too heavy and it hurt too much. But it hurt particularly because part of the reason that I went to the temple was because I wanted to be made better. I couldn't. I mean, I could improve things and I can live my life as authentically as I possibly can. And I think that leads us into better enlightenment and happiness and reality. But I didn't want any of that. I was tired and I was weary and I just wanted to. To be made to feel better. And for us as les people, what better place to go than the temple? That's if you have to feel better, you go to the temple. And I was going to go there and it was going to make me feel better to walk in there. It just didn't. And I was. I don't know that I was shocked, but I'm still devastated. And so after sitting there for quite some time, I just decided it was

Guest 2 [01:57:09] time to leave and got up and

Eldon Kartchner [01:57:14] walked out to my car. And as I was walking to my car and feeling so sad that this one Place that could surely help. Didn't help. I remembered it sort of came together, this convergence for me, this experience on

John Dehlin [01:57:35] the day that Heather died.

Eldon Kartchner [01:57:41] After she had died, you know, within an hour, I sent everybody out of the room because I needed to be a alone with her and just, you know, throw some stuff around the room and just scream and shout it

John Dehlin [01:58:02] because

Eldon Kartchner [01:58:02] I just didn't know. I mean, what had just happened. What the just happened, what I didn't know. And we had. We had a bathroom. So we had double doors into our room that were closed.

John Dehlin [01:58:15] It's.

Eldon Kartchner [01:58:16] And everybody out and closed them. Then our bathroom was in our bedroom. And after a while, I just went into our bathroom and closed that door. And, you know, I remember there's actually a picture that I've been very familiar with my whole life and been taught about that is hanging in lots of church buildings of Jesus Christ in his red robe knocking on the door, but there's no handle. And it's this concept of, you know, behold, I knock, but you have to let me in. So the Savior is always there knocking, but you have to let him in. This idea. And I had never known before those moments as I walked into my bathroom and closed the door, I felt.

Guest 2 [01:59:12] I just fell on the floor

Eldon Kartchner [01:59:17] just sobbing. And I'd really never known before how completely deeply I could not open that door. I couldn't get up. I could not open the door. It didn't matter who was knocking.

John Dehlin [01:59:37] I couldn't.

Eldon Kartchner [01:59:38] I couldn't do it. That concept was worthless to me as I lay there on the floor until. Until my three siblings that were in the house came in the door, walked themselves in to find me, walked in the door. They opened it themselves because I could not. And fell upon me and wept with me. The temple is as sacred as people

John Dehlin [02:00:15] want to make it.

Eldon Kartchner [02:00:18] But people are sacred innately. They came and found me when I couldn't do anything about it. I believe people are innately sacred. And it is the only thing on this earth that is innately, inherently sacred. Our princess life. And we need each other. That's why love is so important. It's the driving force. And I think we can make other things beautifully sacred. And I love that. But nothing will be sacred enough that it can move you when you can't, except for other people. That's my testimony now.

Guest 2 [02:01:17] Amen.

John Dehlin [02:01:19] Do I hear an amen?

Jen [02:01:20] Amen.

Eldon Kartchner [02:01:24] But it wasn't worth it. Just. Just to be clear, it's not worth it. I'll take her back. You can have your lessons. All right. Amen. Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:01:35] All right, Jen and Tyson Kirchner, Jason and Carrie Howard and Ellen Kirchner, thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories.

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