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J. Nelson-Seawright [00:00:36] The kindly light amid encircling gloom

David Michael [00:00:43] Lead

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:00:43] thou me on the night is dark

David Michael [00:00:48] and I am far from home Lead thou me.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:00:56] Hello, and welcome to Mormon Stories. I'm Jay Nelson Seawright, and with me this evening is David Michael, the host of the popular podcast My Book of Mormon Mormon, in which he reads the Book of Mormon chapter by chapter and discusses it on his first exposure. David, welcome to Mormon Stories.

David Michael [00:01:12] Well, thank you for having me on, Jason.

David's Background and Religious Views

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:01:14] Well, David, to start out, I'd like to ask you a little bit about your background. I mean, you are not Mormon.

David Michael [00:01:20] That is correct.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:01:21] So how were you raised? Religious or otherwise?

David Michael [00:01:24] Very religious. So was raised in a very evangelical Christian household. I know that can have many different meanings, so I guess best way to sum it up would be speaking in tongues, laying hands on people to heal them. During, you know, church was lots of loud music and clapping and dancing and that kind of a type of church. My father was actually a pastor, and so, you know, my whole life was Christian school and, you know, youth groups on Wednesday night and I think maybe twice a week. Anyway, actually spent my teenage years in the mission field. So my parents uprooted us and we moved to the former Soviet Union. Actually, it was actually Soviet Union when we first got there because they had a calling from Jesus that we had to go. So, yeah, it was with me, I was just born skeptical. I was the type of person that just didn't believe things at face value. I just naturally didn't. I just wanted to understand things more than just say okay, because God said so. And so I always, growing up, was always getting in trouble at school for asking questions when I shouldn't and that kind of a thing because, you know, just a lot of it just didn't add up. And so I think because of that and especially because of my relationship with my parents, especially my father, who I actually consider to be a very intelligent man, he actually has a PhD and he's a smart guy and we can talk about just about any topic. And I'm usually pretty blown away by his intellect. But whenever we get into the topic of religion, he just jumps to the, nope, this is a different way of thinking. It requires faith. Stop using logic. And that has always confused me. Just this concept of faith, it just doesn't make sense to me in a way that, like, I don't know, some scientists might say I'm missing the faith gene or whatever it is. Right. But so I've been somewhat fascinated by the concept of faith my whole life. And so for that reason, and I know I'm kind of getting into the.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:03:37] Yeah, but I want to actually slow you down just a little bit. Okay. Yeah. So I mean, for Mormons, this sort of world of evangelical Pentecostal, I mean, we maybe know a little bit about this, but there's a whole lot of variety and we don't necessarily know. Like, were you raised a biblical literalist?

David Michael [00:03:56] Probably, yes. But there was some cherry picking. Like, you know, I don't ever remember hearing a sermon about women shouldn't speak in church or something. You know, I mean, we had women that were Sunday school teachers and that kind of a thing. So there was definitely some cherry picking involved. And also when you talk about biblical literalism, it's. Especially when it comes to teaching children. I found this out later in life when I actually read the Bible all the way through. There was quite a few stories that you didn't hear. All of it. Right. Like, everyone knew Noah's ark, but no one knew the very end, which gets really weird. Everyone knew Sodom and Gomorrah getting destroyed, but no one knew the very end, which gets really weird.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:04:39] You mean the pillar of salt part?

David Michael [00:04:41] No, I'm talking about the daughters getting their dad drunk and.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:04:44] Oh, yeah, okay.

David Michael [00:04:45] Yeah, just, just that type of thing. So. So anyway, I think it's probably fair to say yes, in a way, literalism. But there were certainly, I don't know, blind spots that existed which in the parts that were just uncomfortable.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:05:01] So could you, would you mind telling. I mean, you say that you had sort of questions and doubts and just didn't have this experience of faith from early on. Were there maybe moments where this, this, you know, an anecdote that, that would show kind of how you, how you reacted to these things?

David Michael [00:05:17] Yeah, I remember once, I think in second grade or something like that, we had just learned about the solar system and, you know, just kind of how the planets moved around and, you know, we learned that the sun rises because the earth is spinning and all of that. And then the next class, because, remember, this was a Christian School. The next class was Bible class. And we were learning the story of Joshua when he was in a battle with. I don't remember which tribe, but they were just starting. They were losing all day, just started to get the upper hand. But the sun was going down. And apparently in biblical times, you just couldn't fight when the sun was down. So he asked God to keep the sun in the sky. And God granted his wish. And so the sun stayed. And I remember asking, so the earth stopped spinning. Like, we just learned that. And the teacher, it kind of startled her and she said, well, what, what? And I said, well, we just learned. I was like, is it okay for like, what happens if the earth stops spinning? Is that okay to happen? You know, like, what, what, what does it mean? And I distinctly remember her saying, we're not. We're done with science class, we're in Bible class now. And that, that type of thinking is what always confused me, that why are those mutually exclusive? I'm sure I didn't have those words in my head in second grade, but essentially that kind of. That's probably a best example I can think of. Top of my head.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:06:36] Yeah, no, that's perfect. So, I mean, as an adult, how would you describe your, your religious views?

David Michael [00:06:43] I've come to the conclusion I call myself an atheist in a sense that I've not seen any convincing evidence that there is a God. I'm not quite one of the die hard that says there absolutely is not. I just think that based on what we know about the universe, it seems incredibly unlikely. And so that's the. I guess that's my stance.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:07:04] But I mean, you know, some people, they hear atheist and they'll think that means that, you know, there is no God. And that's not what you're saying.

David Michael [00:07:12] Yeah, some people would label me agnostic. I don't really care that much about the title so much. And there's different definitions. Some people say agnostic means that you think there's an equal likelihood of God and not God and it doesn't really matter that much. I think you'd probably. I'm better defined as probably a humanist. That. And I don't even want to get into that. But not what all that means. But yeah, essentially I just, I kind of, I live on what, what I think can be perceived in reality, I think is the best way to say it. And I have. Yeah, I just, I just don't, I'm not aware of any evidence outside of people's anecdotes that would account for there Being some type of being that's controlling us.

The My Book of Mormon Podcast Project

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:07:58] So the reason I'm talking with you tonight is because you've been doing this podcast this year where you're, you're reading through the Book of Mormon carefully and discussing your reaction to it as a secular person. Why. Why take on that kind of project?

David Michael [00:08:11] Well, it's not the first religious book I've done. This is the first time I'm recording myself doing it. So as I briefly mentioned earlier, I did, you know, kind of once I reached either late teens or adulthood, tackled the Bible and just read it cover to cover.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:08:24] It's interesting that you hadn't done that when you were being a pastor's kid. I guess that, to me is a little surprising.

David Michael [00:08:30] Well, it's. I don't know, you hear all the stories, right? You don't actually think that there's a need to go in there and read the whole thing, especially just end to end, like, why would I need to read the story of creation? I know it. But then when you actually read it, the first thing you find out is, wait, there's two different creation stories. You know, I mean, so just. There's so many things that I don't know, just made it caused more questions, not less, when I read through it. But, yeah, I'm actually not, I don't know very many, and I'm using the term loosely, Christians that have actually read the Bible cover to cover, I mean, and even me, I admit, I cheated. I didn't care about all of the instructions on how to build a tabernacle, but I kind of skipped through some sections. All the big gats were not that compelling to read in detail, But. But for the most part, right outside of those few pages I might have flipped through, I just read it all the way through. And so it was the. I think by the end of that is when I really said, okay, I. This just can't possibly be true. I mean, just. Just based on all of the different things in it. So, yeah, so I did that. I. I actually knew some Muslims while I was in the military, and so I tackled their book, which is a very hard book to read. It's just. There's not really a story in the Quran. It's kind of painful. But anyway, read that one all the way through. Didn't, you know, again, didn't get any. I mean, I kind of feel like I like doing that because again, I am a humanist, so in a sense that I want to understand people. And let's face it, religion is a large part of most people's lives on this planet. And so I actually feel like I could at least have a conversation with someone that believes or a Muslim or a Christian and actually have a real conversation about not necessarily what they believe, but at least what their holy book says. Right. So, yeah, I just find it helpful that you can. You can understand different points of view in different cultures if you actually just understand what it is that they're talking about. And so honestly, I was out of stuff to read and I thought I would tackle this one next. And I had. I had found out about other podcasts that were doing something similar. So there's someone that's doing this with the Bible, some are doing with the Quran. And I thought maybe I should. Maybe I should record myself doing it and see if anybody wants to listen. Apparently quite a few people did want to listen. So, yeah, it's taken. It actually was pretty surprising how many people wanted to listen.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:11:05] I think we'll talk about that a little bit more and the kind of community that's come up around this. But going into this, I want to talk a little bit more about your approach to this book. I mean, would you say that you're going in kind of with an open mind or have you. Pretty much. I mean, if you're going in deciding that the Bible isn't true, that's a little bit of a handicap to reading the Book of Mormon in a way. Right?

David Michael [00:11:26] Yeah, that's true. Since this is supposed to be a sequel. Yeah, I can't. I can't deny that. So, yeah, it's definitely. There was an uphill battle. If this book was going to get me to a place of belief, then it was going to have to have some pretty compelling evidence or anything compelling really, to get me to really pay attention and take it seriously in a sense of like, instead of just being a nice work of fiction, but an actual word of God. Yeah, I think because I didn't. I had already kind of dismissed the Bible as a man made work of fiction. It did make uphill battle. But I will say I went into the project and very intentionally didn't do any research. I actually did not want to know what was in it. And I really didn't like the amount that I knew about Mormonism came from, I think, the musical. Right. Which I did see when it was here in Chicago, which doesn't really tell you much about the religion or the beliefs. I mean, there was a few snippets, but they didn't really make sense. I actually think most. Some of Those jokes were more for Mormons because I didn't get them. I would probably get them now. Right, right. So I really didn't know anything. And so I've been very intentional from the very beginning telling everyone. I really don't want any spoilers. So if you're going to email me or if you're going to post something on the website, please try and not tell me what's coming up next.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:12:57] Yeah, that's one of the fun things. So one of the parameters for our discussion is I can't give you any spoilers on this major world religious tradition we're discussing. So nothing after Alma.

David Michael [00:13:08] Well, Alma, chapter 56.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:13:10] Exactly. Right.

David Michael [00:13:11] I don't know how many hundreds of chapters Alma has because it seems to go on forever. I think half a million.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:13:16] It's essentially infinite. Yeah, yeah, you're right.

David Michael [00:13:18] It does seem to be. Anyway. Yeah, so that's. I'm. I don't even know if I'm almost done, Alma. It just seems like I've been in it forever. But, yeah, so we just finished. We just Learned about the 2000 Stripling soldiers.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:13:31] Awesome. That's a highlight. Well, so one of your rules then, coming into this is you know very little about Mormonism. You're not getting spoilers. So nobody can tell you about, you know, the history of the church or the contents of Doctrine and Covenants or Pearl of Great Price or the later part of the Book of Mormon. And what are the other rules to this?

David Michael [00:13:52] Honestly, it's. I've. I've actually just said, I don't want to know what's in the Book of Mormon. People have been, especially the ex Mormon community have been a little bit. I think they cheat a little in terms of Mormon history. If you went to the show's website, you would actually, you know, people do post like, you know this. Joseph stole this from so and so. And look here. So, so there's. There's that going on, that kind of dialogue going on. I don't, I'm not educated enough to be, you know, engage in the dialogue. But. But certainly some of that. But people are very careful about not telling me what's coming next in this book, even. There's. There's one listener to the show that every few episodes he gets really excited and he goes to the website and says, oh, good, I can show you more paintings by Arnold Freiberg, right? Yeah. And so he's like, oh, here you go, here's another one. You know, this is what you just read.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:14:44] And he gets the comic book Art with the naked men.

David Michael [00:14:47] Yeah, they do seem to all. He likes the topless look. But anyway, the. So. So that type of a thing where someone actually once sent me a bunch of pictures of some, like, children's cartoons on the Book of Mormon and they intentionally. If it was a picture of a thing I hadn't read yet, they actually blacked it out. You know what I mean?

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:15:07] Oh, yeah, there you go.

David Michael [00:15:08] I remember there was a picture and it just said like there was a thing that was blank over it and it said missionary to the Lamanites. And now I'm pretty sure it was a picture of Ammon. But. But anyway, at the time I didn't know. And so, yeah, the listeners have been pretty. I think they enjoy the fact that I don't know what's coming, so nobody wants to. To give me any, any spoilers.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:15:25] So do you ever read ahead or rerecord episodes?

David Michael [00:15:28] I have never done that. No. There's been times where I wish I did, but a few episodes I'm like, man, especially when you're going back and kind of editing out, you know, the different. And when I listened back, I thought, oh, man, that would have been really funny if I'd said this or that. But it's. Nope, I've stayed true. I've never re recorded one, never read ahead, which actually helps because I do have a job and family, so I don't have that much time to dedicate to it. So thank goodness I don't have to do a lot of research ahead of time. Right.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:15:58] It's a rule that helps save you. Yeah, that makes sense.

David Michael [00:16:01] It does.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:16:02] So you said just a moment ago, you know, it might have been funny if you said this or that. That's something to note about the show is that you are trying to be entertained and you're succeeding, I should say. I mean, I think you're very funny, but you're trying to be funny, not just sort of. This isn't a serious scholarly read, correct?

David Michael [00:16:19] Yeah, I don't know that I would say first and foremost entertaining, but it is. I understand that this is a, you know, you want people to listen to it. And so if you're not, you know, being entertaining, I know that there are actually I found a podcast that's nothing but an old man reading the Book of Mormon. So that's been done. It doesn't need to be done again. And so, yeah, especially when we get into the, like some of those Isaiah chapters and things like that. It's like if you're not adding Some sort of humor into that. It's just, it's torture. I'm sorry. Probably that might have been insulting to say, but I think a lot of

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:16:57] Mormons would agree with you. A lot of very faithful Mormons would agree with you.

David Michael [00:17:01] So, yeah, there was, you know, and so some of it is humor and some of it's just, you know, some people are entertained by the questions I ask. So even when you look at Isaiah, it was just the Isaiah chapters anyway, it just seemed like it was just, you know, just a big story about God burning everyone. And so we just kept joking about, you know, God being obsessed with fire and being a bit of a pyromaniac because according to those stories, it seemed that way. So different things like that where you. I guess sometimes I'm humorous, but in a way that's also critical.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:17:38] But I mean, I also get the sense, and this is something that's come through in what I've listened to, is that you're open to and excited about good messages in the book as well.

David Michael [00:17:47] Well, sure, yeah. Yeah. And so there's. Now you're putting me on the spot. I hope you remember some of them. But no, certainly there are times where there'll be someone that there's a good message and this is a good way to live. And I will absolutely point out, like, good message. I agree with that. That's a great way to live your life or anything like that. Now, I'm equally as critical when I, when there's something in there that just sounds harmful to both people in society, which I think has come up from time to time anyway.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:18:20] But. No, exactly. I think, yeah, I think we'll talk about some specifics of both of those later. But I mean, fairness, that's the point. Right. You're coming to the book. Kind of open to the idea that there's good things and maybe bad things as well.

David Michael [00:18:34] Sure, I would hope that there are some good things. Yeah. So there's always, I mean, any, and I found this in other religious books that I've read is there is always good parts to it. Right. I mean, I don't think that they would have survived if it was nothing but negative. So, so yeah, and it's, it's good to call those out. And yeah, so I, I, I'm trying to be fair as, as much as possible, but, but you are correct if, if there is the, the entertainment factor. Sorry, I think, Hope you can edit those out. Yeah, so, so I am trying to be entertaining at the same time. And so I, I understand why? Someone listening if they hear me joking about something, may be insulted if this is their holy book. But I just, I have a lot of people that listen to the show that are. Have nothing, that were just like me, nothing to do with Mormonism, and are just interested. And if you don't make it entertaining to those people, they're turning it off. I mean, I can't just read it. It would be right.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:19:36] No, absolutely. That's right. That's right. Well, I mean, I think the idea that you can. You can joke about things that you find absurd or problematic, but at the same time take the book seriously and look for the messages that are there, it makes sense, I think. And I encourage listeners to go to the podcast with that attitude because it isn't every day that we have outsiders taking this book seriously, and it's useful to see what someone like you has to say about that. So if it's all right with you, I'd actually like to go through a little bit your experience of some of the highlights of the book. And by highlights, I'm not going to necessarily ask for your highlights, but maybe the highlights for Mormons, kind of the cultural touch points in the book and see what they look like to someone coming in cold. Does that make sense?

Early Book of Mormon Stories and Characters

David Michael [00:20:19] Okay, sure.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:20:20] So, I mean, just going in, what did you expect the book to be?

David Michael [00:20:24] Oh, man. So ba. I mean, I gotta be honest, I didn't know that much about Mormonism anyway. I could count on one hand how many Mormons I'd ever even spoken to in my life. It just has not been something that has been. I've been around. So I don't know that I really had very many expectations. I'll tell you one thing that shocked me was the references. Actually, twice it's come up at how bad polygamy is. That was a bit of a shock because I will admit I did kind of expect that, because I, I, at least there's a assumption that that was a part of Mormon culture at some point. Actually, it's not an assumption. Bit of a fact. So, you know, seeing that was probably one of the most confusing things I read. Like what? You know, I didn't see that one coming. So, yeah, in terms of what I knew about Mormonism, that would be one that just kind of culturally, everyone knows, aren't they the ones that were polygamous? So. And I'm trying to think if there's anything else that I would have assumed I knew that, you know, Joseph Smith was the founder and there was something to do with Plates that he translated. So that. And that was in there. So that one I guess I expected and got the story was a little bit. Anyway, we can get into that later,

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:21:37] but I think, I think we should do that in just a moment. Absolutely.

David Michael [00:21:40] Okay.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:21:41] So I mean, you know the very first thing you get when you open this book, you get a title page and then you get this story about Joseph Smith. So how did that strike you?

David Michael [00:21:52] Actually, if I remember right, it wasn't the first thing.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:21:54] Okay. First you got a little summary maybe

David Michael [00:21:56] and you got like these accounts from these witnesses and stuff. And then you finally got to Joseph Smith, I think if I remember the order.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:22:02] Okay.

David Michael [00:22:03] Anyway, so the. I don't know. That was every time I've. So I've listened to the first episode a few times now, just going back and listening and every time I'm worried that I sound insulting because it was just, it was a bit of a shock that the. Just how for someone that never heard it, how implausible the whole story sounded, right. You had a guy had this dream, went out to the woods and then it. And this angel that just kept coming back and back and repeating the same thing. And it was just like, what is going on? It just sounded like a very not well put together story actually with. In terms of the like, why is this angel keep coming back and repeating himself? And then it was suddenly it's like we can't have the plates yet. You have to come back every year so I can talk to you. And it's like, what? It just, it was a strange story. And I don't know, I guess I was a bit. And then the, the bigger shock was that I didn't realize the plates were gone. Like I actually thought you could go to the some temple and see them. And so it was like, no, they got taken back up to heaven. And I was like, well, that doesn't help. So that was a bit of a surprise too. And, and then also even like I would have assumed that any normal person would have immediately looked at Joseph and said, I think you need help if you're, you know, people are coming to you at night and talking to you. And you know, his father was like, oh, this is great, God. And I was like, really? People, why, why would anyone believe him?

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:23:34] You know what I mean?

David Michael [00:23:35] Like instantly. So I mean it just. There seemed to be a lot of holes in the story number one. But again it was, it was, I don't know, a bit of, a bit of a shock that that would be right up front, like before you can even get to the next page, we're gonna drop this on you. And, yeah, I don't. I think it's an uphill battle for anyone reading it cover to cover that doesn't know what's in there to start with that, because it's a lot to swallow.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:24:02] Fair enough. Well, so you get into the book proper, and I guess Nephi sort of introduces himself, but then we get Lehi's stories. So tell me what you thought of Lehi.

David Michael [00:24:14] Lehi was. So let's just go with the. This is a historical record.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:24:20] Yeah, I think let's frame it that

David Michael [00:24:22] way for the moment. Let's assume it's that Lehigh, to me, seemed like an old man that had visions. Whether it was psychotic episodes or whether or not he just had vivid dreams and thought that they were God talking to him, there was never any credibility given to Lehi. He would just come out and said, I had a dream. And here you go. And it's like, now we have to change everything, and the whole world's different because I had a dream. And it was like, no, what if it was just a dream? You know, what if you just had a crazy dream last night? Did you ever consider that? And why didn't anyone ever ask him that? Well, actually, his two of his sons did ask him that quite a bit. They seem to be like, dad, I think it's just a dream. Good old Layman and Lemuel, the villains, we might say.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:25:08] Well, right.

David Michael [00:25:08] But I mean, they were at least skeptical. Like, you're asking us to uproot our whole life, leave everything that we've ever known because you had a dream. And so that in and of itself just seemed to be a bit. And then. And then if, when the two sons questioned him, he was very kind of passive aggressive, insulting to them, like, I wish you were more like this river that flows strong. And, you know, like, is weird. Like, he would name the river after them and then say, I wish you were more like it, you know, and that kind of thing. And it was just like, man, you're not exactly. It's like, I think maybe you should just like, I would expect a good father to sit down and say, okay, I understand why you may doubt me. Let me give you. Let me explain to you why I'm so convinced this is true. But, no, he was just like, how dare you question the dream I had? So, yeah, Lehi just. I don't know. He just. And it's weird, because the whole book kind of. You need him. He's Pretty integral part. But yeah, just that was all the credibility had is that he had a dream, right?

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:26:05] Well, I mean, he had. He had more than one dream, right? He had a few dreams, sure.

David Michael [00:26:09] Okay. He had several. I dream every night and I wake up and I say, crazy dream. And I go on about my day. But Lehi just thought they were more than that. So.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:26:20] But then, you know, Nephi got a repetition of at least one of them, right?

David Michael [00:26:25] Yes, he did. He. Well, his was a little bit more so. So Nephi got. I mean, it seemed to be more than even a dream, really. Like he got kind of talked to God and got taken up to heaven, if I remember right. It's been a long time, but. But yeah, Nephi had more of a claim of, at least from anecdotal claim that this was real. Right. Than. Than Lehi ever did, I thought. But again, it was. You just had to kind of take him at his word. And so in instead of the, you know. And I remember. I remember it was funny because Nephi said he wanted the same dream, but he was like, but it's okay if you don't. Because I believe it. Don't get me wrong. I believe. But if you have some spare time, wouldn't mind seeing it too, for myself. And so I thought that was kind of funny that you had to have faith in order to get proof.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:27:13] Yep, yep, yep. So I guess it would be fair to say that in the kind of Nephi League, Nephi vs Laman Lemuel rivalry, you have at least some empathy for Laman and Lemuel.

David Michael [00:27:23] I definitely identified with them. Well, most of the time I don't. I mean, just because they disagreed with their brother, I don't know why they're always trying to kill him, but that was a bit extreme. But, yeah, certainly I identified with the questions they were asking because it actually happened often where I would read and I would ask a question, then a few verses later, layman would ask the question. I'd be like, yeah, there you go. Somebody's asking the right questions here. So I definitely empathize with them, for sure, in most of what they did. Certainly they weren't perfect people. Again, a little bit murderous, or at least attempted to be murderous, but in terms of the reasons that they were upset, totally identified with them.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:28:05] So the dream we've kind of been talking around a little bit is one of the first really big touchstones, kind of a big moment in the Book of Mormon for Mormons and Mormon culture and theology is this iron rod, spacious Building Tree of Life Dream. Tell me what you thought of that when you read it.

David Michael [00:28:22] I had absolutely no idea what was going on. I was lost. I didn't know what it was supposed to be representing. The whole floating building in the sky was just like. I didn't know what to make of that. I didn't get it at all, just to be perfectly honest. And I even remember I have to go back and listen to it. But I was just so confused because some people would, like, make it to the fruit and they'd eat it, but then they'd be ashamed and run off and. And then some people were. It was. I just didn't understand what was going on or what any of it was supposed to mean. And I actually decided, because I was like, I kind of feel like this was important right after I read it, because I kept kind of referencing it, and I was like. But I didn't understand what it meant. And so I actually had the first guest's appearance on the show. I just kind of reached out and said, hey, if anybody would like to come on and help me understand what we've already read. And so I had two people, that. Both of them are former Mormons, that came onto the show and explained this is what that was supposed to mean. And then it started to make a little more sense. The building certainly makes sense. That's kind of the, you know, we're gonna ask you to believe in something that the rest of the world's gonna laugh at you for, I think is kind of what that was saying. But don't worry, everybody laughing will get their comeuppance eventually.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:29:39] And really, they're just floating in the air. Right. They don't have a foundation. They're just. They think they're safe, but they're not.

David Michael [00:29:45] Yeah. I didn't even. I never. No one ever explained why they were floating. So thanks for that.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:29:49] Yeah, there you go.

David Michael [00:29:51] I don't remember what the rod was. I know it all was supposed to be like. Because I remember the Nephi then explained the dream. It didn't help, but because Laman and Lemuel said, what was up with that dream? And he. It was like the rod was supposed to be the word of God and the tree was the. I don't remember repentance or something, but I. Yeah. So I guess to this day, I still. I remember understanding it once, but maybe it didn't quite sink in.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:30:16] So no problem. So. So bas. Basically, there's some challenges getting to that.

David Michael [00:30:24] Yeah, I think. Yeah, that one was tough because a Lot of the. I don't know. When you hear parables in the Bible and whatnot, they often actually either they just make sense. So, like in the Prodigal Son, for example, you don't really need to explain the meaning of it, right? It just makes sense that you should love, you know, your. Your fellow man without question, and no matter what they, you know, come back, you should always be willing to take them back and. And love them with open arms and be. Be willing to forgive any transgressions. It's.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:30:58] It.

David Michael [00:30:58] It just makes sense. You don't have to explain it. But that. That was a parable. That wasn't really even a parable, really. It was just a wild dream. And. And I guess even Nephi explaining it, no one explained it to him. That was just his interpretation of it. And I remember thinking, how does he know that the rod meant that? Or how does he know this wasn't just a weird dream? You know, so that was the. I don't know. I guess we just had to take Nephi at his word, that he somehow knew what everything represented.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:31:29] Mm. Mm. Okay, so, you know, they have this dream, then they're wandering through the wilderness, right? And they have to find the place where food is. So. So God gives them a miracle, Right?

David Michael [00:31:41] The brass ball.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:31:43] The brass ball. So tell us about. About the brass ball.

David Michael [00:31:46] That was a shocker. I'm not gonna lie. I thought I was reading it wrong at first. I thought that maybe this is some sort of metaphor for something, until I really realized, oh, my God, there was just a compass that appeared like that. That was shocking. I don't know. I mean, what can you say? God made a compass in 600 B.C. and put it in front of someone's tent. Just nuts. So, I mean, again, it's more than

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:32:10] just a compass even, right?

David Michael [00:32:12] Yeah, because it had, like, words that would appear if you were faithful enough, and it would point you to food. And, yeah, that was. That thing was pretty nuts. And then recently they just renamed it the Liahona or something, because then it wasn't called that. It was just the brass ball. And then they started calling it the compass, which I thought was interesting when they. They didn't start calling it's compass till they were on the ship. And then they actually started referring to it as a compass. And I thought, well, they know it's compass, but anyway. And then way later, like, man, recently in Alma, they started referring to this Liahona, and I didn't know what they were talking about until they later started describing It. And I was like, oh, that's called a Liahona now. So, yeah, I don't know when it got renamed, but it certainly was never. I. I would have remembered Liahona from the Nephi chapters. But anyway, yeah, I don't know what to make of that. I mean, I guess, I don't know, it was a. Interesting literary device to explain how they got food. But if that happened, what a miracle. Amazing. But.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:33:18] Right, Right.

David Michael [00:33:19] Yeah.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:33:20] So, I mean, in a sense, you know, one of the things that happens that I notice in listening to you read through this is that especially in those first books, they're just segments where it sounds like a secular story, right? We're out in the woods, we need food. You know, we're hungry, we hunt, we eat food. And then. And then suddenly you get something like the Liahona that jumps in and says, nope, not secular at all. Right. And when that happens, you get really surprised.

David Michael [00:33:46] I guess that's true. I think. I never thought of it that way, but I think you're right because there's often times where it. You can just feel like you're reading a story. Right. And the. And you do sometimes forget. It's almost like if. If you're reading. And again, I don't want to be insulting to anyone, but if you're reading Harry Potter and you're hearing about his trouble at home and blah, blah, it's this nice story, and then all of a sudden there's spells, you're not shocked because, you know you're reading a story about magic. Right. And so I think sometimes, especially to your point, when it does go for a long stretch, just telling a story, then, yeah, maybe sometimes I forget that, you know, there really are no rules here. Anything can happen.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:34:31] Because, I mean, stuff like the Laman Lemuel versus Nephi rivalry really, really has a realism to it. I mean, I don't mean to say by that that the miracles aren't real necessarily, but just that there's a. There's a everyday relatability, right, to the idea that brothers have those sorts of feuds and struggles. And so, you know, I take it that there's this. When you get those jumps, that's kind of interesting, right?

David Michael [00:34:56] Yeah. Because don't get me wrong, I'm actually enjoying this story. And there's no question about that. I am interested in finding out what happened. Well, actually, I know what happens since the very beginning of the book tells us that the Lamanites win. But anyway, I wish.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:35:11] So the book basically gives you a big Spoiler.

David Michael [00:35:13] Giant spoiler. Right off the bat, I actually do not read the beginning, the first section, the italicized part in the beginning of every chapter. I don't read them because that's all it is, is a spoiler. So I just skipped that. And I feel okay about it because in the very beginning of the Book of Mormon, there was this little instruction page on how to read it, and it said that the italicized sections were not officially part of the book. I said, okay, cool. And I learned pretty quickly that all this is a giant spoiler. I don't want to read it. So I skipped the spoilers. But, yeah, I wish I'd known that in the very beginning because we absolutely found out quite a bit. Found out Jesus was coming to America. Found out that the Lamanites win. We found out, actually. Those are probably the two big ones.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:35:54] Yeah. Although, to be fair, if they hadn't said that Nephi was going to tell you all of that, too. It's part of his vision in First Nephi, I think.

David Michael [00:36:03] Yeah. But did he anyway? Yeah, I think you might have. Yeah. Because I remember saying. Well, we already knew that. Yeah, I think you're right.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:36:11] Yeah. So Nephi and Laman and Lemuel fight all the time. They fight on the boat, Right. They get to the Americas and they keep fighting, but then they separate and then the Nephites develop very quickly. So what's your reaction to that sort of early setting up of the Nephite civilization?

David Michael [00:36:30] Oh, I don't know that I remember.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:36:33] I might have to pass. He makes a ton of copies of the sword and he builds a temple.

David Michael [00:36:39] That's right, the sword that he murdered a guy and stole. Yeah. So, yeah, I do remember that now. Yeah. So a lot of that did require a little bit of suspension of disbelief, that suddenly they had all these, you know, ores and foundries and they could make. Start making swords. You know, when you think about. You just went to a completely, you know, I guess, virgin landscape. Right. It would. You would think it would take quite a bit of time to get to that level of sophistication. But anyway, so just. Just for the sake of the story, I might have just said, okay, fair enough. They've got swords now, Right. Because they take too long to try and dissect. Yeah. So that was a bit of a stretch. And again, I guess once you've already accepted that there was a Liahona and Nephi could calm the seas, you stop getting surprised. So, yeah, that was probably. I'm trying to think what else? I do remember it seeming. I didn't quite understand why or actually, I know what it was. It seemed like the population was growing faster than it should have been. Because at first when I was reading about, okay, Nephi was worried that they were still gonna kill him, so he just, like, fled. I'm thinking Nephi, his wife, and a handful of kids, right? And then suddenly it was like they were a civilization and Nephi was still alive. I was like, my God, how many kids are they having? Like, it would. Like, even then, it's just a big family, right? Maybe a few dozen. You know what I mean? But that. I remember seeming odd that suddenly it was like cities. And I thought, okay, well.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:38:14] And a king, even by the time he's alive, right? During his life, there's a king.

David Michael [00:38:18] That's true. Yeah. You're even throwing more holes in it.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:38:21] No, I'm just saying, you know, that that goes with the idea that this must. Because, I mean, I can't imagine, like, you being king of your family or something, right?

David Michael [00:38:29] Yeah, yeah, that would be odd. But I suppose that's if we're taking it as a historical record. That is what would have happened.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:38:37] That is what happened. Right. So after. After Nephi dies, we get this quick succession of other people, and then the big next big kind of highlight for Mormons is King Benjamin's speech. So we kind of, you know, we've had a whole bunch of meanderings, and the Nephites have become wicked and then split off and gone to Zarahemla or whatever. And then King Benjamin is going to die and hand over the reigns to Mosiah, right?

David Michael [00:39:02] Yeah, you jumped over a whole bunch of good story there, but we'll go all the way. We'd be on all night.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:39:09] That's the thing. If people want to hear all you have to say about those middle things, they need to go listen to your podcast. I want to get to.

David Michael [00:39:15] Fair enough.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:39:16] The sort of gems. So we've got Benjamin's speech. Tell me about that.

King Benjamin, Abinadi, and Alma

David Michael [00:39:20] Yeah, he was the first one to reference Jesus, Right. If I remember right, was it him?

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:39:26] Well, I mean, they did talk about Jesus in first. I mean, Nephi and Lehi and Jacob and all those folks.

David Michael [00:39:32] But somebody just, like, came out and said, okay, everyone, listen up. An angel told me last night that that dude's name is Jesus Christ. And I remember that.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:39:39] No, no, that was King Benjamin.

David Michael [00:39:40] That was Benjamin. Okay. So, yeah, so he was the one that. And again, it's kind of the. I. No one asked for any Evidence of that. He just knew. Okay. But he was also the thing that I think confused me about him. He was the one that talked about that there was no taxes. Right?

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:39:58] Yeah, he had no taxes. That's right.

David Michael [00:40:00] I don't understand how a government can have no taxes. It doesn't make. It's not a government. I mean, what would it do? I. So that I don't. I don't get. It just doesn't make sense. I mean, and especially when the government is also the church, which it was. How do you build these churches? I mean, how do you do anything? So I get that they were trying to say that King Benjamin was very humble and didn't need riches. And all of this, which. Which actually goes to what I think has been one of the main themes of this. Of the book so far, which is that being rich is just. You're just asking for trouble.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:40:34] Right.

David Michael [00:40:35] Matter of fact, it's been pretty clear a couple times that if you have a thing and someone else needs a thing and you don't give them that thing, you're going to hell. I mean, it's just really clear. It's this whole concept of kind of commune socialism. Everyone's property is everyone's. That kind of a mindset that seems to be the central tenet. Every time I read that, you know, people starting getting rich, I'm like, oh, they're in trouble. And sure enough, they eventually get punished for getting rich. And so the. At least his character, King Benjamin's character fell in line with that kind of philosophy, or, I guess, more way of life, this whole kind of socialist mindset.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:41:19] Yep. So the thing about that story that, I mean, we all remember is that he builds this tower to speak, and then everyone's sort of lined up around him. And, I mean, you actually had some interesting stuff to say about that.

David Michael [00:41:31] Can you remind me?

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:41:32] Okay, I'll help out. So. So he starts talking about this, but not everyone can hear him. Right?

David Michael [00:41:38] Yeah, yeah.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:41:39] So they have to write it down and pass it out to the people further away.

David Michael [00:41:43] Got it. Yep. I remember that. And then. And then I remember he then went out into the crowd. So, what'd you guys think of my speech? And everyone's like, we thought it was great. You're the king. What do you want us to say? Yeah.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:41:55] And then he gives them a name.

David Michael [00:41:57] Guess who a name?

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:41:59] Everybody.

David Michael [00:42:00] Oh, yeah. This was me being an idiot. So it sounded like he told everyone that they had to change their name to Christ. And I thought, this is going to be a confusing kingdom. I later found out through context, because it comes up again. I think what he was really saying is, like, call yourselves Christians, I think. But, yeah, for a while, it sounded exactly like everyone in his entire kingdom had to change their name to Christ. And I thought, this is going to be one confusing place to live.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:42:25] Well, you know, I mean, I'm going to say. I'm going to just throw in my personal anecdote here and say when I was about 11, I was going to a church class on that, on the Book of Mormon, and the teacher actually had us do that, had us change our last name for the length of the hour to Christ. So I was j. Christ for an hour.

David Michael [00:42:43] There you go.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:42:44] We were all Christ, brother Christ, sister Christ. So, I mean, your read on that was not unique, at least.

David Michael [00:42:51] Okay. Probably aren't. That's good to know. So basically not, though.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:42:58] No, no, absolutely.

David Michael [00:43:00] Absolutely.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:43:02] What's a name if everyone has it? Right?

David Michael [00:43:03] Right.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:43:05] But so basically, I guess the impression I'm getting from this is that King Benjamin's speech pretty much wasn't memorable for you.

David Michael [00:43:13] No, not. Not particularly. I mean, I don't remember it being. The thing that stood out for me the most was when he just stood out and said, okay, hey, I got his name. It's Jesus. And I just thought that was, I don't know, comical. But, yeah, I don't know. I don't remember him saying anything that was really monumental. It seemed to be that he went on and on about his. That he was giving the keys to the kingdom. To what, Mosiah? Is that right? Yeah, yeah. So there was quite a bit about, like, it sounded to me more like he wanted to make sure there was a peaceful succession more than anything.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:43:49] Okay. So, I mean, I guess subsequently in the story, there's a lot more, you know, back and forth in the wilderness, and we end up with this group of people who go back to the Nephite land to try to reclaim it from the Lamanites. Right. And there we get sort of one of everyone's favorite figures, which is Abinadi.

David Michael [00:44:10] Okay.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:44:14] Yeah, I want to hear about Abinadi.

David Michael [00:44:15] All right. So I don't know. I'm kind of putting him up there with Lehi. He just. He showed up, and if I'm not mistaken, he kind of like, was described as almost like a homeless person. Like, he disguised himself in rags and stuff, and he just walked in and said, you're all wrong, and if you don't listen to me, you're cursed. And it's just. He reminded Me of a homeless person in a big city holding up a repent now sign like, it just. You just. Why would anyone take you seriously? You're just one person with no evidence of any kind, and you're just walking into a place that already has an established culture, and you're just saying you're all wrong. So I didn't understand why anyone would believe him, quite frankly, because if I was trying to put it in the context of today, no one would take anyone like that seriously. It's just some old man dressed in rags yelling at everyone. So I didn't even understand how he got. It took forever to kill him, too, because King Noah kept saying he was going to kill him, and then. No, no, no, wait. Was it his advisors? I don't remember. The other funny thing I remember about Abinadi is no one has ever given such a long speech. Being burned alive. That was.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:45:22] Yeah. While he's, in fact, being burned.

David Michael [00:45:24] That was impressive. He had ages and pages didn't. And there was never an ouch in there. So I'll give him. I'll give him that. That was a. That was an impressive feat, you might say.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:45:33] He was a bit of an iron man.

David Michael [00:45:35] Yeah. And even then, it was just like. It was. It was. The entire speech was just a curse. Like, you guys are screwed. Like, you don't have no idea who you just mess with. And, you know, even again, even if I was the executioner, I would still think, whatever, old man, just go away. You know, he just didn't. He just didn't have any credibility. I thought, like, there was never, like, here's. Here's how, you know, here's my letter of recommendation from a king or something. Right. To say I have some credibility. He was just a person that wandered in by himself. And Abinadi was also. Didn't he have some sort of dream and God told him to go do this? I think.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:46:14] Yeah, I think that's right.

David Michael [00:46:15] It was something about burning his lips with coal, which is weird, but I didn't.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:46:19] I thought that was Isaiah, but I'm not sure.

David Michael [00:46:21] It might have been. I don't know. I forget a lot of characters. Yeah. I. So, yeah, that was my opinion of Abinadi. I just didn't understand why anyone would take him seriously. Because no one would today.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:46:33] Right. Well, fair enough. And so a group of the people in the story do take him seriously. And Alma the Younger baptizes them. All right. And they escape back to the main Nephites in Zarahemla. Right.

David Michael [00:46:46] So far. Yep. That's right.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:46:48] But then Alma's son turns out to be, let's say, a little bit like you. Right. Son of the pastor, but not believing it.

David Michael [00:46:54] A little bit of a rebel.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:46:55] A little bit of a rebel. Right. So tell us what you think about his story, which, again, is another one of these major moments for Mormons.

David Michael [00:47:03] Yeah. So you know, his story, he didn't believe it. And so God gave him proof. He gave at least him and his. Was it friends or brothers? I think it was actually both. Anyway, him and some of his friends got some direct evidence. Here you go. Here's an angel and knocking you over and all this kind of stuff. And so I actually thought that he was a little bit disingenuous, because for the rest of his life so far, he's going around telling the world, you need faith. And as a matter of fact, there was some. Who was it? Korihor? One of them. One of those Antichrist was basically saying, give me some evidence. And Alma himself is saying, how dare you ask for that? You're cursed. And I thought, but you got evidence. Like, that's. How can you go around talking about faith when you didn't have any yourself until you had, like. Anyway, so that was my whole issue with him. I also don't understand why people seem to be dead for a few days before they get converted.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:47:56] It's kind of a pattern, isn't it?

David Michael [00:47:58] Yeah, it's quite a pattern. I actually joked that people were overdosing on spirit, so. Yeah. And I was telling everyone, you can't just let all the spirit in at once. Kind of let it in a little bit at a time. You guys are gonna kill yourselves. All that spirit anyway, so that. That was my. That was my biggest issue with that conversion story, is that it was. He just. It didn't require faith on his part to convert, and that's what he's asking everyone else to have.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:48:24] Mm. So he's asking other people, in a way, to be better at religion than he was.

David Michael [00:48:30] Yeah, I mean, I won't. If I had an angel that came down from heaven and knocked me over, and I had several witnesses with me that all saw it too, that's pretty convincing. Not gonna lie. Pretty sure I would at least very seriously think I'm probably wrong. Right. So, you know, it doesn't really require much of anything more than just observing reality. And if that happened, then, yeah, then it's. It doesn't really require any faith at all.

Ammon and the Antichrists

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:49:00] So one of his friends is one of every Mormon's favorite heroes. Which is Ammon, and I think one of your favorites, right?

David Michael [00:49:08] I think he was fun. He was a fun character. He was definitely the best missionary. Yeah, if you go back and read. Nobody converted like Ammon did. Alma actually wasn't very good at it. He. Everywhere he went, just. Just awful destruction happened. But no one ever seemed to get converted. You know, women and children being burned in fires and just awful stuff, but never really seemed to succeed. But Ammon didn't mess around. I mean, he's converting kings and whole societies. He was good. I did not understand that. The whole. Just chopping off arms of people that were kind of just cow tipping or whatever.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:49:48] Let's slow down on that. Right. They've taken the sheep off to the. I guess the oasis or something.

David Michael [00:49:53] Yeah, well, actually, first, let's go back one.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:49:56] Okay. Okay.

David Michael [00:49:56] Here you have your sworn enemy, right? You got a Nephite wandering into Lamanite territory. Everything up until this point we've heard about the Lamanites is that they are just pure evil. They wake up in the morning and say, how do we kill more. More Nephites? So here in walks a Nephite, and they capture him, they tie him up, they bring him to the king. Like, do we get to kill him? And king says, hmm, how about I offer him one of my wives to marry?

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:50:20] Or.

David Michael [00:50:20] I'm sorry, one of my daughters to marry? And you're like, what? What? Where did that come from? And then he's like, you know, Ammon's like, no, I don't want to marry your daughter, but can I work for you? And it was just made no sense. It did not follow along with what we had been led to believe about Lamanites. Right. And so anyway, that. That whole thing, I'm still confused about what that was, how that's supposed to make sense. And then. But then. Yeah, so then now. Now we can go into the. So now he's a shepherd. Okay.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:50:49] So. Yeah. Because instead of marrying the wife, who we don't know why he was offered the wife, and we actually don't know why he refused it. Right.

David Michael [00:50:55] Daughter.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:50:56] But, yeah, yeah, the daughter as wife. I mean. But yeah. So then he says, no, instead, I'll be your slave. And he takes the sheep off to water. Right?

David Michael [00:51:05] Yeah. And then we have some other Lamanites that scatter the flock. And I don't know the way it was described, I kind of, like, equated it to, like, cow tipping. Like, just kind of people pranking with these flocks because it didn't seem like it was that big a deal. The flock got scattered and all the shepherds were freaking out like, the king's gonna kill us. Which not a very nice king, but. And then all Ammon said was, no, no, let's just go get the sheep back. And they went and got him back. I was like, well, what was the big deal? Like, there was just some people messing around with your flock. That's really all that happened. And when he saw him again, he just started murdering them. I mean, just. He just pulled a sling out and started killing them. And when they came to kind of defend themselves, he just started lopping arms off, like, kill Bill. It was crazy. So that, that was just. I didn't. Like, he didn't even have a conversation with him. There was no discussion. So I think the story probably could have been better if they kind of vilified the flock scatterers a little bit more. Right. Because the way it was told, I don't really know what they did. I mean, sure, they were being a bit of a hooligans, right, But. And then later it kind of described them as maybe they were trying to steal the sheep, but. Okay, fair enough. Even if they were thieves, you murder them. I mean, it just. Yeah, that. Off the bat, I thought, Ammon's not a nice guy. He's. Well, it certainly doesn't mess around. You don't want to piss him off because you. You're either going to get killed or get your arm chopped off.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:52:32] Yeah, fair enough. And then he. He gathers up the arms, right. Which is not something I would have. I would have thought of doing.

David Michael [00:52:39] No, no. And then drops him in front of the king and said, check it out. It was as cool as me. And I love that at that point, the king's like, huh, maybe my shepherds. I should stop killing them for losing sheep.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:52:49] Great.

David Michael [00:52:50] Glad you had this revelation that that was a bad thing anyway. Yeah. So Ammon, but. But again, he was good at his job. His job was to convert. So it's. It's. I may not have liked the method, but you can't really argue the results. He. That whole kingdom, for the most part, got converted and became the Ammonites. So he did his job if it took. You know, he can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs, so can't really fault him.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:53:14] Well, there you go. So. So I'm going to point out that of the people we've talked about so far, this is the first one, really, where you've been sympathetic with the person you're supposed to be sympathetic with.

David Michael [00:53:25] Oh, okay. Sorry about that.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:53:29] It's all right. You like the villains more than the heroes most of the time, I think. But with Amman, job well done. Yeah, Yeah.

David Michael [00:53:37] I may not agree with all the methods to get there, but you did get the job done. His job was to convert people, and he did it, so I'll give him that. He was successful.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:53:46] Okay, well, so we've talked about Ammon, and a lot of Mormons have. I mean, there you can buy action figures of him. And another character you can buy action figures of is Captain Moroni. So tell me what you know about this guy.

David Michael [00:54:02] Well, this may be going out on a limb, but I kind of feel like he has been the most morally reprehensible character in the book so far. I hesitate to use the word evil because I don't really know that I can define that word properly like most spiritual people can. But he is.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:54:23] He just.

David Michael [00:54:24] He's a bad man. He rules like a tyrant. He has this army that he uses to. I mean, he just recently killed 4,000 of his own people because they kind of. They wanted a king instead of judges, which comes up often. He's killed, you know, people that have surrendered in battle. He's fine with using children's soldiers. He just. We just read about him using prisoners of war to test for poison, and many of them dying. What else just happened? Oh, he sent this prisoner exchange agreement, and the guy completely agreed with it. He said. What was the guy's name? A moron. Or I think it's Amaron, but I always call him a moron. But anyway, he's a Lamanite. We can call him names. But so. And he said, here's the terms of the prisoner exchange. And the guy said, agreed. And then he just said, I'm not gonna do it. Let's just go. Let's just go steal, like, bring them back or arm them or whatever. So even that, it's like he's even breaking oaths. It's just everything about. I have. I have yet to see any good thing that he's done. Now, in terms of a battle planner, he's good at it. I'll give him that. I don't think he's necessarily a very good field commander, but he's definitely good at, like, if I needed someone to build up my defenses, that's the guy you want. But if you need someone to be your administrator, I think you can do infinitely better than Moroni. And even he's calling himself several times now, especially when he writes something, he will say, I am the leader of the Nephite people. And I'm like, wait, when did that happen? I thought the judges were the leaders of the Nephite people. And anyone that even says that there should be one leader, you kill them.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:56:06] Right.

David Michael [00:56:07] And so. But then he kind of calls himself that, so I don't know. I, I'm not done with him yet. He's still alive, but so far he is. He's not an easy guy to like.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:56:20] Okay, so turning from, I guess a couple of the, the people who are supposed to be heroes, at least we've got. You've been through a.

David Michael [00:56:28] What's good about him? What, what do people like? I mean, again, he's, he's good at defense. He is. But what is there in terms of like, from spiritual well being, how that's a good guy?

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:56:39] Well, I'll tell you, the thing about him that people turn to is the story of the title of Liberty when he makes the one flag and writes stuff on it. And that's kind of the moment people have in mind.

David Michael [00:56:51] Okay.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:56:52] I mean, you remember that, right?

David Michael [00:56:54] I do. It was a bit odd.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:56:55] It didn't impress you, I guess he

David Michael [00:56:58] ripped his robe off and I mean, it just seemed sloppy. And then suddenly they were being hoisted up everywhere. It just seemed like a very tacky looking community. But yeah, I don't, I guess, I mean, I guess from maybe a patriotic kind of thing, like you're making a flag and getting everyone behind it. I don't, I still don't think that makes you a morally good person based on all his actions. And actually I will say that. Let me, let me jump to that real quick. One of the things that I find a little bit interesting is that oftentimes the book actually has to stop and explain who is like people's motives. Right? Because if all you get is their actions, they don't necessarily sound bad. So Amalakiah. Is that how you say his name? I guess the Nephite that somehow went up to the Lamanite territory and became king like overnight. Interesting how quickly he did that. But if you just read the story and didn't hear a single thing about his motives, you would have thought he was a hero. Here's a guy who's a Nephite. God's chosen people went into the enemy camp and actually took over. Like he got, he controlled them all and it was like, awesome. You're better than anyone. Anybody else that's gone up there, good for you. But the whole time they're telling the story, it was like, because he was evil, you know, they had to throw that in there because the actions alone, you wouldn't think. And so same thing with. With Captain Moroni is that he'll do these awful things and then they'll have to throw in there the. Because he was doing the Lord's work or something. Like, it's because he was just. And it's just like. No, that's not a just action. You can't just say. It's just. Right. So the. That. That I find telling that the book has to kind of stop and explain who's good and who's bad because based on their actions, you. You can easily get confused.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:58:44] Mm. Well, so as I was going to say, so the three people who. Who most clearly are positioned in the book as being bad up to this point are the Mormons. Call these the three antichrists. So the first one is Sherem, this guy who shows up and talks with Jacob.

David Michael [00:58:58] Yeah, he was brief, wasn't he?

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:59:00] Pretty brief.

David Michael [00:59:01] Right.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:59:02] But do you remember that story?

David Michael [00:59:03] Yeah, he was the one. I think he just came and said, like, I don't think Jesus is really coming.

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:59:11] Right. Do the law of Moses and forget this Jesus guy.

David Michael [00:59:15] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I remember him, which is fair, right? Somebody had a dream. I'm not buying it. And he was pretty vilified. Now, if I remember right, he. He also asked for proof. And his proof was like, I think it was him right where he asked for proof. And then he was like, struck down and almost dead or something. And that's right. Right. So he got his proof, but it was more of like a punishment because I think he kind of like died in obscurity shortly thereafter. And so I felt a little bad for him. Like, you know, someone had this weird dream. He just kind of said, can we have some sort of evidence that this is a real thing? You're asking us to live our lives by some. Someone's dream. And yeah, he got kind of smoked down for it. So that was a bit, I don't know, rude. Okay, so who's the next one?

J. Nelson-Seawright [00:59:59] The next one is Nihor.

David Michael [01:00:01] Oh, good old Nehor. Yeah, he. Man his character. He died early, but his. His.

J. Nelson-Seawright [01:00:06] He has a lasting.

David Michael [01:00:07] His heritage lived on. Yeah, yeah. So the. If. Remember Nihor, right? He wanted to pay priests, which I still don't understand what the big deal is with that. Like, what's the. Why is that such a bad thing to just say that that can be someone's job. But anyway, you want to pay priests. And then he also. He was the one that kind of sounded a little bit like an anarchist. Right. Like he's saying there really isn't any sin or crime, we don't need to repent. And really kind of follow through, like where he was going with that. Because I don't. I don't know that anyone would really buy into someone saying you can't do anything wrong, you know, like what society would get behind that. So it was a bit unbelievable that anyone really follow him because it just sounded weird. Like, has there ever been a successful anarchist movement? Right. I'm not aware. So that was a bit odd. But the. I do remember what was interesting about his character was that he kind of had to murder somebody. I can't remember. Do you remember who he killed? He killed.

J. Nelson-Seawright [01:01:12] I think it was a war hero from the escape of the people from the. From the place where Abinadi was, but I'm not 100% sure.

David Michael [01:01:20] Anyways, he kills a guy and then. So then he goes on trial. But his trial had very little to do with the murder. It was all about, you're spreading these lies and then it was like, oh, yeah, and you killed a dude. So it did seem to be more of a. His execution. Again, the justification was that he murdered someone. Fair. But when you look at kind of the quote unquote transcript of the trial that was in the book, didn't seem like that's really what they were upset about and what they were actually convicting him of. So I thought that was a bit. That's when I first started to think this is a theocracy, you know?

J. Nelson-Seawright [01:01:54] Right. So I mean, the book says that you have religious liberty in this society.

David Michael [01:01:59] It does say that. As long as you.

J. Nelson-Seawright [01:02:02] I mean, was that your reading that it's actually true or no.

David Michael [01:02:08] And actually probably the best example of that is who I assume you're coming up to next, which is Korihor.

J. Nelson-Seawright [01:02:13] Right.

David Michael [01:02:14] So Korihor comes up and he was the only one that was actually called Antichrist. I got a little bit excited. I kind of felt like I expected more from him. You hear Antichrist and from a Christian upbringing you're thinking like, oh man, he's gonna. Dragons are coming up from hell. And you know, it's a big deal. But anyway, he tended. He actually ended up being a bit of a letdown. But anyway, the. When he started talking, it was. The book was making a very big point that he technically wasn't breaking the law. Right. It said that several times. Anyone can believe whatever they want to believe, right? But then it kept going into their own. People are only judged for their actions. And then they started kind of getting into what are some of those actions could be that would be considered, you know, a crime. And some of them were religious, right? I mean, there were. Well, I guess it's a stretch to say completely religious, but there were references to the, you know, commandments of God. I remember specifically adultery being brought up. And those are. Tend to be more. Not necessarily crimes in terms of, you know, a secular crime, but. But more of what a crime would be if you were following religious law. So it seemed like the loophole that I gathered from the Kori horror story was you were allowed to think whatever you wanted to think in your head. That was okay, but you better be living by the, you know, laws of Moses, because that's our. That is our legal code. So I don't know how much religious liberty you can say exists when you've got. When you're basically living by a religious set of laws. That was my. My problem with it. And the other problem with Korhor is that at the end of the story, he had. He finally said an angel came down and told me to do this instead of God wanted me to. I guess it was actually I was deceived by the devil. And then I really felt bad for the guy because it was like, well, wait a minute. How do you know the difference if an angel comes and talks to you? How do you know? And so I felt pretty bad for. I don't know. I was expecting.

J. Nelson-Seawright [01:04:19] I always kind of felt like he. He failed in logic, though, right? Because if an angel shows up to you and says, hey, tell everyone there's no God, shouldn't you say, wait a minute,

David Michael [01:04:30] yeah. Yeah, I guess that is fair. I guess the coral wasn't very smart. But, yeah, that whole thing was. It seemed like it was an attempt. Well, again, no, I don't want to do that. So we're still going with this being historical. Korihor was not a very smart man because he basically said, there's no God, or he didn't say there was no God. He just said, I don't see any evidence, for one. I'm saying something simpler. And then he said to Alma, I think, yeah, it was Alma. He said, you know, show me some evidence. And Alma used some of the most rudimentary apologetic that I've ever heard. It was pretty much, well, look around their stuff. So God, I mean, it was just. There was no substance there. And. And then core was Like, I'll be darned. You got me. I can't. I can't argue that. And it was just like, wow, okay.

J. Nelson-Seawright [01:05:23] So, Coral, so you were not personally persuaded by that argument?

David Michael [01:05:28] No, no, I don't think so. I think Alma could have done better. I mean, and I actually thought, like. And again, that was one of the times I really got upset at Alma because it's like, you got your proof. Why are you so angry at this guy that needs it too. Right. And that upset me a little. I remember even joking, like, why don't you get one of those guys that Ammon dismembered, bring him in and say, God, grow his arm back. Everybody we convinced watch an arm sprout out of a stump. I'm in. Right. But anyway, yeah. So, yeah, I don't. I guess. I mean, everybody need. Every story needs a villain. I didn't realize that all three of them were considered Antichrist because only Korihor got the true title.

J. Nelson-Seawright [01:06:07] No, I think you're right. I think that's in the book. But I mean, that's. They're grouped together for a lot of Mormons, so it's interesting. Yeah.

David Michael [01:06:14] Nihor's legacy lived on, though. So there was every. Every other time they found an evil city, they were following Nihor.

J. Nelson-Seawright [01:06:21] So pretty much he was the most successful of the three.

David Michael [01:06:23] I guess so. And they had some weird stuff going on with him. Like they had that weird, like, prayer pillar thing. Everyone has to get up and repeat the same thing. I don't know, but. But I remember being odd that when the missionaries walked in and saw it, they were horrified. And I thought, why is this so different? You know, they're just preying on something different. I didn't quite. I don't think they made a good case of why the. At least followers of Nihor were such a departure from what they believed.

J. Nelson-Seawright [01:06:53] Fair enough. Well, so, I mean, summing up a little bit, what would you say have been the major messages of the book up to the point you've read?

Themes and Messages in the Book of Mormon

David Michael [01:06:59] Well, certainly there was the. Culturally, socialism is the right way to live according to God. We already kind of talked about polygamy bad, which still confuses me. And then, I don't know, it just. It seems to be this. This concept of if you follow God's commandments, you'll get blessed, and if you don't look out, that. That seems to be. And then, of course, I know we skipped over the whole skin darkening, but that's just so obviously was just a disgusting part of the story that oh, no, let's.

J. Nelson-Seawright [01:07:33] Let's stop there for a second. I mean, that is not a minor part of the story, right?

David Michael [01:07:38] It's not minor, but I. I'm sure I'm not the first person that thought that that was not a pleasant thing to read. So, yeah, I mean, everything about that, I mean, it was just like, not only so God made people's skin dark that he didn't think we're following them. So right there it's like, well, that's awful. And then it was like. And he did it so they'd be ugly. You're like, oh my God, even worse. And then it's like. And he wanted to make sure that no Nephite would ever want to be with them because they were ugly. I'm like, good God, worse. You know, it just kept getting worse the more that they told it. And if. And if any Nephite ever even like, mixed their seed with them, they're cursed too. I'm like, stop. Just stop saying it. You're not getting better. So that, that was pretty, you know, because again, it's like you're not just cursing or punishing someone for doing something wrong. You're punishing all of their descendants forever. And so that just the, the, I don't know, injustice of that is. Is hard to. To overlook, right? That how could any type of being that is trying to be just in any way justify cursing or, or doing, punishing someone that even born yet? So anyway, that bothered me. Everything about it bothered me.

J. Nelson-Seawright [01:08:55] So we could say then there's no polygamy, be socialist, some racial themes, but

David Michael [01:09:03] more going back to the whole, if you follow this, you're going to get the hookup from God, right? So it's just that follow God's commands. And again, I kind of given up trying to figure out what those commands are because I haven't really been very descriptive about it. And I mean, I'm assuming if it's Old Testament law, that's a little confusing because there's a lot of that, right? I mean, and you don't really hear a lot about animal sacrifice and, you know, just the things that were themes in the Old Testament that were a part of Moses and Abrahamic. Abrahamic. Is that how you say it?

J. Nelson-Seawright [01:09:39] Law?

David Michael [01:09:39] Anyway, so all of that type of stuff is not really mentioned. Even saying that it wasn't a crime to. To not believe. You know, technically thought crime is a crime. And even in the Ten Commandments, thou shalt not covet, it's a thought crime, right? So there's all. It's. I'm still confused about what was the law that people were supposed to be following and you better be following it. I just didn't quite know what it was. They referenced the, I don't know, law of Moses I think once or twice, but it doesn't seem like anyone's actually following that. So I'm not real clear on what the law is. But anyway, that, that message of what is it? Prosperity, I think is what people call it the prosperity gospel where follow God's law. And I actually personally have a problem with that whole line of thinking because I just, I don't know, my heart goes out to someone that is just the circumstances of their life. Things aren't going well whether they get a disease or whether they get, you know, live in a war torn country or whatever. And it just, it breaks my heart to think that anyone there could blame themselves to say, well, I must not have been, I must not have had enough faith. And that's why these bad things are happening to me. And I don't know that that to me just kind of eats me up inside that that's the problem with prosperity gospel is it has a flip side. If you're not getting the prosperity that you think you should be, then you're assuming that you're not doing something well enough. And some people do go to extremes to try and get to that. You know, what do I have to do to try harder?

J. Nelson-Seawright [01:11:14] Yeah, right. So we've mentioned, I guess in passing a couple of times that the book says, says one or two things about Jesus.

David Michael [01:11:23] A few. Yeah.

J. Nelson-Seawright [01:11:24] So what would you say the message of the book about what have you sort of taken away from all of that talk about Jesus?

David Michael [01:11:31] So I'll say that if I had not read the Bible, I wouldn't know who that character was. It wouldn't really make that much sense. I think there is an assumption that you kind of go into the book knowing who Jesus is already because, you know, I don't remember it being referenced that he is, you know, God like figure in human form and he'll be, you know, I don't remember getting into that much detail. It was more just like Jesus is coming, he'll redeem us for our sins and it kind of brushes past that the more the bigger focus is you better believe he's coming. Which has continued to confound me why it would matter in hundreds of years before he shows up. Why would it matter that you believe that this person's coming? Right. Because if we read The Old Testament, there was never anyone like Isaiah wasn't standing up saying, you better believe Jesus is coming. I mean, he might have prophesied about him and people like, okay, fine, but it's not, it wasn't like this critical component to life or death, whether or not you believe that. Right. And so I don't know why it's so important for people to believe pre Jesus coming that he was coming. And I still haven't heard that. But yeah, I think it just the way it's been and maybe I'm being unfair because possibly I read past the parts that I already knew because I know the story of Jesus and it did describe it better, but I don't remember it really describing who Jesus was in any great detail other than to say, he's coming, he's going to redeem us for our sins, moving on. And you better believe it. And so, yeah, I think the. I actually think there's just an assumption that everybody knows who Jesus is.

J. Nelson-Seawright [01:13:10] Okay. So essentially the assumed audience is kind of Christian before they start. Is your take.

David Michael [01:13:17] Yeah, I think so. And it's fair. I mean, it is from the beginning says it's a sequel. So you would hope. Well, not necessarily a Christian, but at least aware of what's in the other book.

J. Nelson-Seawright [01:13:28] Oh, fair enough. So I guess, I mean, looking at the stuff you've read in the book so far, is there anything that would have contradicted what you were taught as a kid, as a kind of a. I'm going to say mainstream Christian relative to Mormons? Very mainstream. Right.

David Michael [01:13:44] So if I was a kid, I'm a Christian and I read the book Mormon, that's worded a different way.

J. Nelson-Seawright [01:13:51] Yeah.

David Michael [01:13:51] And I wasn't told it was a different book. This is just like, here's some extra Old Testament chapters.

J. Nelson-Seawright [01:13:56] Yeah, exactly. This is, this is maybe slapped in between the Old Testament and the New Testament.

David Michael [01:14:01] Gotta be honest, I don't, I don't think there is. Not really. It's, it's. No, now they come to think of it, because, I mean, even the things like the Leona. Well, there's. There's some pretty outstanding miracles that occur in the Old Testament too. Right. People are coming back to life and there's just all kinds of stuff going on. So. No, I don't think so. So far. It just seems like a sequel.

J. Nelson-Seawright [01:14:27] Okay, well, there you go. So maybe Mormons are a little less weird than all that. Yeah.

David Michael [01:14:33] I have a feeling I'm gonna hang up and say, oh, wait a minute. But no. So I Don't think so. Yeah. And I've actually a few times mentioned that on the show that I, if, if I honestly had somehow lived on some deserted island and had no idea it was in the Bible.

J. Nelson-Seawright [01:14:50] Right.

David Michael [01:14:51] It'd be pretty hard to honestly not hear Bible stories because I probably think the only way you could do it would be if you were raised, like, Hindu or Buddhist or something, because even, you know, Muslims know what's in the Bible. Right. Because they're. They also claim the Quran is a sequel. So most people are at least aware of Bible stories. Right. But if there was somehow that you could come into that completely ignorant, I imagine that you would have very similar reactions that I'm having. Right. I mean, the first, if you were just reading Noah's Ark, you'd be like, wait, how did these animals get there?

J. Nelson-Seawright [01:15:24] What?

David Michael [01:15:25] What? You know, they all fit on a boat. What are you talking about? So it would just sound ludicrous if you'd never heard the story. Though I do tend to, like, make sure that I call that out that just because this sounds this way to me. I've never heard this before. And so I understand if this is something you were raised with, how it doesn't. You never really had to think of it that critically because it was just. You were just taught that this happened.

J. Nelson-Seawright [01:15:49] Okay, well, so up to this point, we've kind of taken the approach that this is a historical account and we're going to talk about these people as people. But I want, I want to step back from that for a second and say, you know, at this point being as far as you are, I think, a good halfway or more, right.

David Michael [01:16:05] Over half.

J. Nelson-Seawright [01:16:06] Yep, yep. So is this, Is this strike you as a credible historical narrative at this point, or. Not so much.

David Michael [01:16:14] Yeah, there, there's. There's some evidence that this is. Was written in the 1800s. It's hard to avoid. Yeah.

J. Nelson-Seawright [01:16:22] You know, so, I mean, again, and you're coming to this without having read, you know, apologetic and critical debates or anything like that, you're just kind of jumping in. So what stuck out to you as problems with claiming this as history?

David Michael [01:16:33] You know, things like if they just kept calling it a brass ball, it would have been one thing, but suddenly it became a compass. And how would they know what a compass is? There was horses in North America, which weren't there. At least I'm not aware of, actually. It did look that up. Like, when did horses come? And it was like Spanish settlers much later. So there's just things like that that pop up Some people have pointed out the whole steel thing, but that one's a bit. There's arguments that there was some ancient forms of steel, so whatever. But there's trying to think of some other things that jump out.

J. Nelson-Seawright [01:17:09] One that you mentioned very early in the podcast is that if this narrative was true, we might expect to find some DNA traces.

David Michael [01:17:17] Oh, yeah, heard that. Yeah, that one jumped out right away. And a lot of people actually questioned my credibility that you must have already know about this topic if you pulled that one out. And I remember thinking, why, no, that's what anyone would think if someone said that this person is a descendant of this person. We now know how to check that. You know what I mean? There's not. This isn't a mystery. And so we can. We can just go and look and say, are they. Aren't they? And, yeah, so that one is certainly. It's just not. I mean, there's absolutely no trace whatsoever within DNA evidence that there is any Native American tribe that came anywhere other than Asia. So, yeah, I don't know how you can say with just based on that evidence alone that they were from Israel. It just doesn't. It's just not there.

J. Nelson-Seawright [01:18:05] Okay, so. So I guess you're not being converted intellectually at this point.

David Michael [01:18:12] No, no, not yet. And I'm trying. I actually try to shut that off as I'm reading it. Right. There's. There's obviously things in there that make you wonder, and again, I'm forgetting quite a few, but there's things that jump out that you're like, I don't think anyone would have known about that at that time period or that wouldn't have existed then. But I do try to. That's not the focus of the show. The focus of the show is not to try and disprove the book. Right. The purpose of the show is to try and understand what's in it or what's in the book. Right. Not to just, like, discredit it completely. And so the. There are plenty of other shows out there that are kind of doing the more historical view and looking for holes in the story. And I didn't. Early on, I knew that the show could take that turn, and I kind of very consciously decided to not do that. So you might hear me mention a few things like the DNA evidence and the steel swords early on, like maybe within the first handful of episodes, but I actually stopped doing that and just kind of went with, you know what? Let's just enjoy the story and see where it goes.

J. Nelson-Seawright [01:19:17] Right. No, I Think that gives you an opportunity to see the book in its own spirit. Right.

David Michael [01:19:22] Yeah. I'm glad that you think so, because that is what I've been trying to do.

J. Nelson-Seawright [01:19:28] So as you've done that and as you've gotten through the many episodes, you've done up to this about 50 or so, right?

David Michael [01:19:34] Just finished 52.

J. Nelson-Seawright [01:19:36] 52. All right. How's the response been? I mean, I think you. When you started out, you were looking for maybe a couple thousand listeners.

Listener Community and Impact on Ex-Mormons

David Michael [01:19:45] I didn't know what to expect, quite frankly. I just. I thought, surely there's other people like me that might be interested in this. Right. And so I thought my audience would be people that were interested in religion but would never just sit down and read this from, you know, because it's not something you just think, gee, what do I want to read next? How about the Book of Mormon? So that was kind of what I thought my intended audience was.

J. Nelson-Seawright [01:20:08] Although. Although you did think that, so at least somebody does.

David Michael [01:20:11] Sure. I knew that there had to be some people out there like me, but, yeah, I didn't expect it to be any type of big show by any stretch. And so the. I released. I think I recorded the first five before I even released it. So I just had a backlog of recordings, and then I put it up there. I think it was either five or six that I had. And within a matter of weeks, the. It got the attention of the ex Mormon community, or former Mormon, whatever you call them, and from that point, it kind of went viral within that community. And I mean, and really, it was like on Reddit, things blew up and Facebook and Twitter, and it just seemed like all of a sudden my traffic just jumped up and I thought, what is going on? And actually, I don't. I don't know how many people can claim this, but within, I think two weeks of the show's launch, it was number one on iTunes in the religious other category, which just floored me. And so then from there, once it kind of gets that kind of level of attention, then other people start seeing it, and you know what I mean? So it just kind of compounded from there. Yeah. So I know that there are. There are people that listen to the show that are, you know, ex Mormons that just could kind of get a kick out of, you know, that they heard these stories growing up, always in Sunday school and that kind of a thing. And then hearing me read it, there are people that actually are like me and say, this is just entertaining and I enjoy it fine. There are some people this is kind of funny. There's some people that just like my voice. Apparently one woman actually wrote an itunes review that said, I just, I use your show to go to sleep at night because your voice puts me to sleep. And I was like, wow, I'm literally putting people to sleep with my show. That's great. That has value.

J. Nelson-Seawright [01:21:53] That has value.

David Michael [01:21:54] It was a five star review, so I guess, thanks. And then there are. And this, this. I have no idea how to quantify it, but there are I know some, you know, Mormon members of the LDS Church, Mormons that do listen to the show and some of them have reached out to me and emailed it said, like, hey, I'm a believer. But some of the stuff that you've, you know, I just enjoy this. Right. Hearing it for the first time. So I know that there are, again, no idea how many of any of these groups exist. I only know it from feedback and usually the people that are still believing. Mormons, I guess is the best term to give. Or true believing Mormon. I think it's actually that's what ex Mormons call them. Okay, sorry.

J. Nelson-Seawright [01:22:39] Mormons will call themselves faithful Latter Day

David Michael [01:22:41] Saints, but yeah, Saints. Thank you for giving me that one. I'm still trying to learn all this lingo. I actually was on one show that had a Mormon focus and they started talking and I actually said, you guys are speaking Mormonese again, I don't understand what you're saying. And they all thought that was funny, but it really is. I mean, if you're from completely outside this culture, there are times where you will completely lose a conversation just based on the way, like, just different words and terms. But anyway, so what was it again? Faithful Latter Day Saints.

J. Nelson-Seawright [01:23:09] Faithful Latter Day Saints.

David Michael [01:23:10] Yeah, Faithful Latter Saints. So I know that there are some of those that do listen to the show, not as, I guess, active on the different social media type of things. So I haven't really, you know, more the, the ones of them that I know listen to the show just emailed me directly and said, appreciate what you're doing for these reasons. And you know, for some of them, there was one person I know that said that I had kind of challenged their faith a little, but that only, only one time out of everyone that listens to the show said, you actually got me thinking that maybe this isn't right. But all of the other faithful LDS members. Yeah, got it. Were just kind of say like, hey, you're not really shaking my faith. But I'm enjoying hearing this because it's just stories we grew up with. And it's entertaining to hear someone that's never heard it before. So, yeah, it's quite a mixed bag.

J. Nelson-Seawright [01:24:05] Yeah. So, I mean, one of the things that's really interesting to me about the show is that you don't just have these kind of passive listeners. Right. I mean, in a real way, there's a community that's come together around your project.

David Michael [01:24:16] Yeah. So just like everything else, everyone's got a term in the Mormon community, it seems. And so fans of the show are now called Mimos. That's just. And so I just started calling them the Mimo family. For a while, I didn't know what to call them, the Mimo group or listeners. So now it's just the Mimo family because it's kind of turned into that. And. Yeah, so that's. That community has. Has grown quite a bit in terms of really the willingness to want to help each other out in different things. I think a lot of these people, and certainly there were a lot of people that have lost their faith and felt alone and just didn't. Didn't know that there was anyone else out there. I've actually had a few people that wrote me and said they had no idea that there was anyone else out there that. That had lost their faith. Right. They just felt like they had somehow, you know, were some freakish person that just couldn't believe it anymore. And so. And many of them, some of their stories were pretty heartbreaking that, you know, even to the extent of if they even told anyone what they were thinking, they could potentially lose contact with their family. I know one person said they were worried about getting kicked out of school. There's some people even said they might lose their job. I mean, some of this stuff was pretty. You know, I couldn't even relate to how traumatic that would be to not even be able to talk to anyone about it. So one of the things we did was set up what we call the. What is it called, MIMO Support Network, where it's just basically a bunch of people volunteered their contact information. And if someone just needs someone to talk to, you know, we just connect them together and say, here's a. Here's a buddy, Here's a phone number, here's an email, and they're just going to. They'll listen, and you can, you know, just take some free advice. So that's something that was set up within this community. Louis. Also, I partnered with an organization called Whitefields Educational foundation, and that's. I like them because it was not an organization that focused solely on, like, getting people out of the church. Right. It was not really at all.

J. Nelson-Seawright [01:26:18] Right, right.

David Michael [01:26:19] No, they are. They want to provide therapy to people that are having any type of face crisis. And so a lot of what they do are couples that. Where someone's struggling with their faith and someone isn't, and how do you kind of save that relationship? And then there's. I mean, I know one of the. Some of the things they do, especially when it comes to suicide prevention, because that, unfortunately, is something that can be a result of this, especially if there's some sexual identity that goes on. And so we actually set up a scholarship. So for anyone that kind of needs that level of support, if it's. You need more than just a friend to talk to, like, especially if you're at the point where you're considering whether or not to live, then we actually. If you can't afford those counseling services, we now have something called the Taylor Scholarship that the Mimo family funds and basically pays for people that don't need the. Or they can't afford that kind of help. And so I know as of like two months ago, I know that there's been a handful of people that have actually gotten direct help through that scholarship. And. And I know that, my God, we've given probably three times as much since then. So, yeah, it's pretty cool. I started the show early on. I never wanted to make money doing this. It wasn't the point. This was a hobby. And I. For a long time, I never even asked for money. And then when the show. The weird thing about podcasting is the more popular you get, the more expensive it gets. Right?

J. Nelson-Seawright [01:27:48] Yeah, that's.

David Michael [01:27:48] And so I eventually said, this costs more than I thought it would. So I actually, you know, am going to need some help. And instantly people just, like, flooded me with this contributions to the extent that I had way more than I needed. And so that's when I decided, okay, instead of just like telling people to stop giving money, maybe we could put this to better use. And that's when we set up that. That scholarship. And when I announced that that's what I was doing with the extra money, then it just almost triple the amount of funding that started coming in. Once everyone knew where it was actually going, nobody wanted to give me money, but they were all happy with giving the money to that cause.

J. Nelson-Seawright [01:28:26] So you've come to know a fair number of, I guess, disaffected and former Mormons through this.

David Michael [01:28:32] Yep, Yep. That's a fair statement.

J. Nelson-Seawright [01:28:35] So obviously they're very Angry and bitter people.

David Michael [01:28:40] I think it seems like there's a bit of a transition. And so I think early on there is. I think it starts with fear at least. And again, this is not to anyone listening, if you didn't go through these stages, this is just me. I don't know, being an armchair therapist, right.

J. Nelson-Seawright [01:28:56] This is you offering your sense of what you've seen.

David Michael [01:28:59] Yeah. So it seems at first it's a little bit of fear, just that really frightened that everything I've ever kind of believed might not be, and what does this mean for my life and that. And then once you kind of get out of that into a place where you're on firm ground, then I think the anger sets in. And there's a perception that I've been gypped, right. I've been, you know, I was. I was promised something and I found out it's not real. Right. And everything I've been led to believe wasn't true. And I had to make all these sacrifices my whole life for no reason. And so that tends to be. There is definitely an anger phase and certainly there's probably some people that never get out of that. But in my experience, the ones that I've reached out to, that does fade. And then it turns into just a love of humanity and a, you know, wanting to help each other in life because, like I said, the community that I have, which I know that the, the vast majority of supporters of the, of the show and the scholarship have been that ex Mormon community that are not only willing to help each other morally and give up their time for each other, but even financially to support people that need help, but they'll never know their names. I mean, this isn't like we get a bio of, here's someone that just got therapy, right? I mean, that's not even legal. So these are complete strangers that we'll never know that people are willing to give up financially to help.

Personal Reflections and Closing Thoughts

J. Nelson-Seawright [01:30:30] Well, so I want to transition a little bit as we're moving towards wrapping this up. And I want to ask you a question that's. I don't know. I mean, this is a question that if I were a missionary, I'd want to ask you, as you read the Book of Mormon, how has it affected you personally to read this book? Has it made you want to be a better person?

David Michael [01:30:53] I don't know how to answer that without sounding mean, but no, I guess.

J. Nelson-Seawright [01:30:58] Okay.

David Michael [01:30:59] I don't think so. I mean, no, I don't feel like being. I mean, I don't feel like I'M a bad person anyway, so.

J. Nelson-Seawright [01:31:08] But the book isn't motivating you to change your life?

David Michael [01:31:12] No. I mean, I don't even know how it would yet. Right. I mean, it's really just kind of a story about a family that turned into a civilization and we're just hearing their story. So. Yeah, I. I have a feeling that some of the. The real meat of it's coming later because so far it's been an entertaining story. And, well, outside of the whole, like, Isaiah copy paste, we've been. I still don't know why that was there, but anyway. Yeah. So for the most part, I don't know that there's been any kind of part where it's been like, hey, here's that moment where you've got to turn left or turn right necessarily. Because even again, the thing that's tough is that I still don't know what right and wrong is, according to this book. It's very confusing. It's often there's a discussion about follow the law and do good and God will bless you. And then you see the people that are supposed to be holy doing awful things, but it says they're good. And then people that are supposed to be bad, that aren't necessarily always bad, but get punished anyway. And so it's just, I still haven't been able to wrap my head around kind of what are the. What are the criteria for being a good moral. Just whatever word you want to use. Person in the eyes of God and what isn't. I don't know. I mean, outside of don't, whatever you do, don't get rich and marry one person. Those two things were pretty clear. But otherwise it's been, I don't know. So even to answer your question, I wouldn't even know how to. Even if I. Even if I thought absolutely this is the truth, I wouldn't really know what to do next so far.

J. Nelson-Seawright [01:32:49] Well, so now I'm going to turn things a little bit more on you for a moment and say, you know, I mean, ask you for an opportunity to share, you know, what you might call your secular testimony. If the book doesn't tell you how to be a good person, why don't you tell us what we ought to do to be good?

David Michael [01:33:06] Wow, there's no pressure at all there, right?

J. Nelson-Seawright [01:33:08] Hey, it's how we close things up on Mormon stories. Tell us what you know. I mean, maybe reflecting on the experience and thinking about, you know, you're talking to a whole bunch of Mormons, liberal Mormons, doubting Mormons and faithful Latter Day Saints. And what can we take from your experience to help us be better?

David Michael [01:33:29] All right, so I guess I'll just explain to you what, when I say I'm struggling to understand what's right and wrong in the book, how do I have a right and wrong for myself? I think it comes down to empathy more than anything. Being willing to put yourself in someone else's shoes and say, how would I feel in that situation? And I think when you're able to do that, or not just able to do, but willing to do it consistently, and that being the, I guess, main moral driver. Right. So I don't, I don't have any other criteria for, you know, is should I help someone or not, or should I be kind to someone or not, or should I lend a helping hand? It's just the, how would I feel? And so that kind of guiding principle has, has led me through just about anything. So even if I'm going to just throw out a controversial issue here and say something like homosexuality and gay marriage, if I were someone that was attracted to the same sex, what would I want? Right. And then that kind of guides me towards that. Well, okay, then we should make sure that this can happen for you. Because I would want that. Because I don't kind of have a dogma associated with it that it's right or wrong. Because some, because a book said so. It's easier to make those distinctions because you just have to put yourself in their shoes for a second and say, how would I want to. How. What would I want if I were here? And so I think that's the way that I've lived my life. I feel, I know when I've done wrong because I feel really guilty about it sometimes even to the point of being detrimental. You know, I've, for example, I've had, in my profession, I've actually had to lay people off in the past. And I felt physically sick. You know what I mean? Having to the point where I wasn't sure if I could keep that job. Right.

J. Nelson-Seawright [01:35:21] Yeah.

David Michael [01:35:21] Because it was just, it just hurt me to do that to someone, even though it wasn't necessarily my decision. I didn't like, you know, that wasn't done out of malice. It was. But still that, that type of, of empathy is just how I, and I don't even know that I choose to live my life. That's what that way. It's just that's how I am.

J. Nelson-Seawright [01:35:42] And, and that's, I mean, I guess that's what we, what you In a sense, that. That can stand in for some more formal code.

David Michael [01:35:50] Yeah, I think so. Because. Because again, Eve and I've actually. Man, this is gonna get deep. But I've had long conversations with my father about this. Like, can you define sin? Because I don't understand what it means. And, like, for me, if. If you were to ask, do you think, okay, sin is real? What do you think it is? I would say it's that feeling you get in your gut if, you know you hurt somebody and when you. I mean, I can't sleep at night till I go and somehow make amends. You know what I mean? Even if, like, I've. I've even sometimes thought back at, you know, where I've. Let's say that I made some type of, I don't know, remark in a conversation, and then later, I think someone kind of squinched their face and I didn't really notice it at the time. Like, I will make it a point to go find him and say, like, I'm sorry if I upset you with that. You know what I mean? Like, it. I just can't get past it. So that, to me, is the. And some people may say that that's. Well, that's, you know, God touching your soul and telling you. And it's like, maybe, possibly, but that's. I don't need a book to tell me that. My. I just. I feel it.

J. Nelson-Seawright [01:36:58] All right, well, thank you very much. This has been David Michael from the My Book of Mormon podcast. And I hope that this has been a useful taste of the project and a discussion of what's going on around it. And if you're interested in what David's up to, I really encourage you to go listen to his podcast at least a few episodes. I mean, it's really worthwhile.

David Michael [01:37:17] Maybe I should plug where to go.

J. Nelson-Seawright [01:37:19] Yeah, I'm going to give you a chance. Just a second.

David Michael [01:37:21] All right. Edit that out.

J. Nelson-Seawright [01:37:23] All right. All right. But I wanted to say that I think it's really worth taking a listen because we don't often have the opportunity to hear someone read this book without a whole bunch of preconceptions and prior knowledge. And it's just interesting to see the book from that point of view, and it's really worthwhile. So, David, where can people find you?

David Michael [01:37:42] Well, first of all, Jason, thank you so much for having me on, and thank you for all of the, I guess, kind words about the show, and I appreciate that at least what I've been trying to do has come across. So thank you very much for that. So the easiest place to go would be the show's website, which is mybookofmormonpodcast. All1word.com and you can kind of find everything there. Links to Facebook page, the Twitter even. There's links to itunes or Stitcher or Spreaker or any other of the podcast apps there. You can always just search for the show on any of your favorite podcast applications that you listen to your podcast on. And yeah, that's the easiest way to do it. And if anyone wants to reach out to me directly, you can email me at commentsybookofmormonpodcast.com I'd love to hear from people after they've checked the show out and hear what you have to think.

J. Nelson-Seawright [01:38:32] Thanks again and we'll be back soon with another episode of Mormon Stories.

David Michael [01:38:42] Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org music for this episode was provided by the Lower Lights and other sources. Cease to make me whole

J. Nelson-Seawright [01:39:04] when with the wounded heart, anger or malice

David Michael [01:39:15] I

J. Nelson-Seawright [01:39:16] draw myself apart, Searching my soul.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.