Introducing the Abhau Family and Their Story

Part 1 of 3 · Ep. 508

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Guest [00:00:19] Come, come, ye saints. No toil nor labor fear, but with joy when you're.

Meg Abhau [00:00:33] My name is Meg Abhow and I was born and raised in the Mormon Church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And I have 10 sisters and five brothers. And I was raised in the gospel and I met my husband Jake in 1996, and we got married in 1998 in the bountiful Temple. And we raised our son John. We have one child, his name is John, and we raised him in the church. And that's.

Jake Abhau [00:01:01] Yeah, so I'm Jake. And yeah, we've been married for almost 16 years. My parents, I have one brother. My parents were baptized into the church when we were about eight or nine where the missionaries tracked us out, knocked on our door. We were baptized about three weeks later. And then my brother and I both went on missions. I served a mission in Montreal in Canada, and yeah, then came home and found Meg and then we got married.

Meg Abhau [00:01:31] Well, we. John was born in 1999. I. I don't know if this is relevant. You can cut this out. He. We. We. I was told that I could never have kids. And so when John came along, I think we were just barely married, not really ready for it, but we found

Jake Abhau [00:01:50] out on Christmas Day.

Meg Abhau [00:01:51] Yeah, Christmas Day. A little Christmas miracle. I found out that we were expecting and so of course I was terrified because I'm going to be 21 and have a baby and we felt like babies ourselves, but we're so excited.

Meg Abhau [00:02:05] And so he was born in August of 99, and Jake blessed him at my sister's baptism because all my family was there and we were just over the moon, just in love with him from the second we met him and just raised him up. And I always had callings and young women.

Meg Abhau [00:02:33] I'm just like the perpetual young women leader. I was anywhere I went from secretary to young men's president and everywhere in between. So I was always carting my little baby around to all of the, of the activities. And basically I think I have my PhD in young women.

Meg Abhau [00:02:53] I mean, it was like 15 years of young women. So, yeah. And John was just loved church. He was so cute in his tie. And we took him to church and he loved nursery. He just, Bye, Mom, Bye, Dad. He never had any issues in nursery and everybody loved him in primary and he Was always like, everybody's favorite. He's just so sweet.

Jake Abhau [00:03:15] Yeah. So we were married in 1998, and we had. And then John was born. But for me, prior to that, we were baptized. I was 9 years old when we were baptized. And then as we. A couple years later, my father, who had rapidly progressed in the church, I guess you could say he was a 70 at the local area, the stake level. When they had 70s, he was diagnosed with leukemia, and he passed away when I was 13.

Jake Abhau [00:03:45] So my brother and I were kind of forced to, I guess, look at the world a little bit differently at a young age. But when I originally was called on my mission, I was actually called to go to the Ivory coast in West Africa.

Jake Abhau [00:03:57] And I went over there. And in the Ivory coast, they have a. The men in the Ivory coast have a. I don't know if it's a tradition or what you would call it, but for two men, if they're very, very close, a sign of friendship is they would hold each other's hands or they would just kind of just touch the arm or something like that as they're walking together. And in the missionary training center, they actually use the words, warned us of this, but really they kind of gave us the idea that that might be the case and just have not be shocking or whatnot.

Jake Abhau [00:04:33] And this was 1992. And so I went out there and my admission companion was. He was a local. He lived in the Ivory coast there. And so, in fact, his mother lived right up the street from us, and we would go see her about once a week. But about two or three weeks in, we were walking down the street, and sure enough, he kind of grabbed my arm and then. And then grabbed my fingers, you know, and it was really, really uncomfortable to me. You know, I was a little, you know, because I didn't know. Really know what to expect, but I didn't dare show that emotion, you know, So I held.

Jake Abhau [00:05:05] I held my missionary companion's hand for, you know, we probably walked a couple of miles, you know, because I was, you know, I understood that it was a cultural thing and that I should feel honored for that, you know. And so it was just. It was my culture, culture that had taught me to be uncomfortable, which I was. But I didn't. I didn't show that there. So. And then a couple years, and then, oh, I guess I should note that I got sick in Montreal.

Meg Abhau [00:05:36] I'm sorry.

Jake Abhau [00:05:36] I got sick in the Ivory coast and came home. And then they. Since we were learning French there, they had me finish My mission in Montreal. But a couple years after that, I had a roommate who was gay as well.

Jake Abhau [00:05:49] And he and I became very, very close friends. And we didn't. I intentionally did. I kind of skirted the subject, you know, it didn't really bother me or anything, but I didn't. It was something that I wasn't comfortable with, you know, so we didn't really talk about it. But I enjoyed him as a person. And he took me down to West Hollywood and showed me everything, you know, the whole lifestyle down there that I had no idea existed. We used to talk, we would walk down the street and I said, so does everybody, everybody here know that you're gay? He goes, oh, yeah, it's really obvious.

Jake Abhau [00:06:21] I said, do they know? Do they think I'm gay? Do they think they were together? He goes, oh, no, everybody knows that you're straight. And I was like, well, how do people know? So I was. I just learned a little bit. Little things here and there, you know, from. From this guy. And he's. He's still a good friend, but yeah, so that's a little bit about my background anyway, leading up to when John told us about.

Jake Abhau [00:06:46] About himself. So I. So I had a. I've had several gay friends in. In the past in my life I've kind of crossed paths with, but nobody that I ever stayed really long term close with. And I think that was probably because of my views. I held very traditional, conservative views on homosexuality and what it was, you know, that it was a sin that was wrong, and politically, everything, you know, I still held tight to those views, but I did have a feeling of compassion towards the individual, you know, and that. And that didn't add up completely in my head. But, you know, when I went.

Jake Abhau [00:07:21] When I would go vote, you know, in politics, I typically went, you know, the. Definitely the conservative Republican. Right. So, yeah, yeah, I don't know.

Meg Abhau [00:07:39] John was the. Just as far as the church goes and his activity in the church, he never even asked to miss mutual. He never complained about going to activities or going to church or going. The only thing maybe he complained about was camping. Because as far as like the traditional boy goes, Jenna's never been your typical. He is not interested in sports and he basically. He just has no, zero interest in sports. But he's very musical and very compassionate and loving and sweet and could get along with anyone. And so he loved Mutual and all his friends at Mutual, and he loved passing the sacrament. And so he was like, I guess there's a term in our church. It's called Peter Priesthood. So I guess John would be considered Peter Priesthood. And everybody in the ward would always ask me, what do you do? What are your.

Jake Abhau [00:08:42] If I can say, parenting tips?

Meg Abhau [00:08:45] Such a good kid.

Jake Abhau [00:08:46] Yeah, well, somebody in our ward. Yeah, somebody in our ward even pulled me aside one day and they. And they said. Or he said, every. Every parent in our ward wishes that John was their kid, you know, or was. Wishes that he was half as. Half as great as your son.

Meg Abhau [00:09:02] And so he was loved.

Jake Abhau [00:09:03] Yeah. So he set. I mean, at some level, he set a bar, you know, of what other parents were kind of, like, hoping that their kids would be like. And. And we. I mean, I don't know, we hid him from media. We were really strict on what movies and TV shows that he could watch, and we were really, really tight on that.

Meg Abhau [00:09:22] Yeah, we're really. We were strict. Yeah.

Jake Abhau [00:09:24] And he was. And he never really had a. I mean, he would be a little bit upset that he couldn't watch this certain PG13 movie that all the other kids at school were. But he never. He was a good kid. He didn't sneak around and go try to watch stuff or he'd tell us that he didn't watch this because everybody else was watching it.

Meg Abhau [00:09:40] And he didn't complain too much about it. No. But, yeah, so basically our typical kid, that. He was just a typical Mormon kid, I guess. Just a really happy, sweet boy. Still. Just happy, sweet boy. So you can maybe understand my.

Son Comes Out as Gay at Age Thirteen

Meg Abhau [00:10:09] Okay, so John was what some people say about effeminate. I didn't really see it. I think as a parent, you just don't notice these things. And I. I just thought he was different. Everybody's different. Everybody comes in all different shapes and sizes and personalities and characteristics. And I didn't label him. I didn't think anything of it. But in my mind, I saw John growing up and getting married and going on a mission and being married in the temple and just doing just basic going to byu, just your basic things that I think is pretty typical in our Mormon community.

Meg Abhau [00:10:50] And so when he decided to come out to me, I was very shocked. He was 13 years old, and it was in March of 2013. And he said I had rented a carpet cleaner because I was unsatisfied with the service that we had. And I have a bit of ocd, I guess you could say. So I.

Meg Abhau [00:11:21] I'm cleaning these carpets and it's super loud. And he said, mom, would you like to play a game of Hangman? And he had the iPad. And I said, sure. No problem. But we couldn't really hear each other, so we started signing the letters to each other. And he's got this game of Hangman on the iPad.

Meg Abhau [00:11:40] And I was kind of getting. And I was just kind of getting focused on something in the carpeting age, kind of clapped his hands at me and said, mom, this is really important. I need you to listen to me. So, okay, so we're signing, and all of a sudden I realized it's not one long word, it's more of a phrase. And it said, I am like Andy. And I said from the office. And he just shook his head no, and the carpet cleaner still going. And right over the top of that phrase, he wrote gay.

Meg Abhau [00:12:13] And I just turned the machine off, and I was like. Just like, my voice was shaking. I was like, are you telling me that you're gay right now? And he just. He just shook his head like that and he closed his eyes. And for information sake, we have a good friend Andy, who is gay. So he was saying I was like our friend Andy, who John had never met in person, but it was my sister and Andy were going to be engaged. Well, immediately I turned the machine off, and I just don't remember exactly how long it took, but I think seconds, I hope. Seconds.

Meg Abhau [00:12:55] I was across the room and I just embraced him and I said that, I love you, John, and this will change nothing, and nothing could ever change. And we will figure this out. And I don't know what this means, and I don't have any answers. And.

Meg Abhau [00:13:14] And then I just started bawling because I think all of a sudden it was like the selfish part in me didn't think of his beautiful future, of who he truly is. The selfish part of me just saw my grandchildren just float away in wisps. And his mission was just gone and his temple marriage was gone, and everything that I had hoped for him was gone.

Meg Abhau [00:13:47] And there's this. I didn't understand. I didn't know. Jake, fortunately, had been exposed to a lot of gay people in his life. Myself, not at all sorry. I didn't know anything about it. So we sat there hugging, and for a while, and I just was like. He said, mom, I don't want you to be sad. And I said, john, I'm not sad. I'm not disappointed in you at all. I love you so much. I just. I'm sad because I'm worried. I'm worried this will be a hard life for you. And from what I knew of gay people is that they were bullied. They were Mistreated.

Meg Abhau [00:14:33] They were. And maybe a small part of me thought that it was a choice. I don't think I ever consciously thought that it was a choice, but I thought, here's this boy that's 13, and he is not choosing this.

Meg Abhau [00:14:47] And so I said, okay, how do you feel about this? Are you okay? Because I thought maybe he wouldn't like this about himself or that he would start to have low self esteem. And I instantly kind of went into this overprotective mother mode, which we affectionately call the mama dragon.

Meg Abhau [00:15:05] And he said, mom, I'm okay with this. I feel like this is a special part of me, and I feel like I want to shout it from the rooftops. I'm not. I don't want to. And he said something that's really cute is that he said, so I've been doing a lot of research, and there's this thing called the closet. I said, I know. I've heard of the closet. And I had mistakenly thought that the closet was to protect yourself because that. Because you weren't accepted from society, so you were going to be safe in the closet. But John told me that the closet is a place of darkness and loneliness and depression, and he didn't want anything to do with it.

Meg Abhau [00:15:45] And he asked me, within minutes of coming out if I could help him facilitate a coming out, if he could live authentically. So I really had to play catch up immediately. And I said, john, I will support you in anything, and we will do this, whatever it takes. I need to learn some more things. And he was like, okay, you know, just take your time. And so Jake came up at that moment, and because he had the. The carpet cleaning machine had. Had stopped, and. And John and I are just still hugging and crying, both of us just crying.

Jake Abhau [00:16:23] And I was like, hey, what's going on?

Meg Abhau [00:16:25] He comes in the room, and we. We were. John, it was in my room, and so we were sitting on my bed just hugging. And Jake sits on the couch that was in our room. And he was like, guys, what's going on?

Jake Abhau [00:16:37] Well, I'll go back a little bit, and we can mesh these together. But the previous year, probably Meg has a sister who lives here in Arizona with us who had. She and her daughter. Her daughter and John are almost exactly the same age, and they've always. They've kind of treated each other like twins, you know, all growing up, and they're really, really close. Well, she. Well, the two of them had become kind of activists in the LGBT community in the prior year. And we knew A little bit about that. We knew that, but we were still really unfamiliar with it because it wasn't something that we did, and it was still part of that thing for me.

Jake Abhau [00:17:21] I was still a little bit uncomfortable with that whole idea. Even though I knew some people and had good friends, but it still wasn't something that I really wanted to kind of face head on. And so Meg's sister had become, you know, quite the activist. And so we kind of knew that. And so at some point, you know, we're out here, we're doing the carpet cleaning. I'm boiling water, and I'm dumping it in the machine. And then I'm carrying, like, the heavy water up the stairs. And Meg keeps at it, and then I go clean it out and keep boiling water. We have this system that's going really perfectly, and we're doing our whole house, and we're trying to get ready for a move, and.

Jake Abhau [00:18:02] And then suddenly it just, like, stops. And now I have. You know, I have all this water. It's all ready to go. And it's just, like, dead quiet up there. And I'm just like, what is going on? Come on, people. You know, we've got a time limit here.

Guest [00:18:13] And.

Jake Abhau [00:18:14] And so finally I go upstairs, and I'm just like, hey, guys, what's going on? But I could see in the room right when we walked in, it was just completely somber and quiet. And John was kind of staring off, like, at the wall, apart from me. And Meg was just kind of sitting on the bed and. And I was just like, oh, my God. I mean, what? You know, I literally. I was. In my head, I thought somebody had died, but I was like, okay, neither you two are both living, so that's good.

Meg Abhau [00:18:41] How bad can it be? Yeah.

Jake Abhau [00:18:43] And so. And so they started to interact a little bit. And Meg said, jake, John has something that he wants to tell you. And she said she was asking John, should I tell him? You know, and he just kind of, like, nodded his head. And so Meg looked over at me, and she said, well, John, just inform me that he's gay. You know, just like that. And she said it really with, like, really confidently, like, no tears or anything like that.

Jake Abhau [00:19:13] And so it was interesting because I'm sitting there, so I'm processing that immediately. And she continues to have a little conversation with John about how much he wants to get involved in this conversation. And John is just facing the wall.

Jake Abhau [00:19:28] And as she's talking to John, she keeps looking over at me, you know, where John can't see. And Just like trying to hide, hide the tears from John, but show them to me. Like, I don't. Like, I don't know what. What do we do? You know, this is all.

Jake Abhau [00:19:41] So we're trying to communicate while they're trying to communicate all in this moment that is going to be this epic moment in our life, probably, you know, that we'll go back and remember. And we're trying to. I think all of us are trying, doing. We are all trying to do it the right way, you know?

Jake Abhau [00:19:55] You know, and I'm just. And I'm processing. I'm processing everything because for me it was to say I was shocked is probably the right. Is the right word to surprised. No, because, you know, we knew John his whole life and there was, you know, like she mentioned, I mean, he was effeminate. There was a couple little things.

Jake Abhau [00:20:13] He definitely fell under a lot of the stereotypes, but not so much that was super obvious. And it seemed that in the prior year it had become less obvious than the whole previous 12 years. And so that's what I was saying. I was more shocked, but still not surprised. And then if you want to tell him what I said, I don't ever remember. I don't even remember this.

Meg Abhau [00:20:37] I know he doesn't remember my analogy. So John likes to say that when he looked over at his dad, he had his thinking face on. So he looked like he was thinking,

Jake Abhau [00:20:50] and I had my thinking face on.

Meg Abhau [00:20:52] You had your thinking face on, and you were just really contemplative. But Jake said the first words out of his mouth were, you know, John, I don't like tomatoes. He said, I. I can't. I can't eat tomatoes.

Jake Abhau [00:21:13] We should preface this really, really quickly with I, literally, since I was a kid, I've never been able to eat tomatoes. And at age about 20 or 21, I decided I was going to eat a tomato every year. Like have a bite of a tomato and just try to eat it. And until. Until eventually I got used to it. And so that's what I did from

Meg Abhau [00:21:33] about 21 till 30, because eating tomatoes is normal. You should be able to eat tomatoes.

Jake Abhau [00:21:38] Everybody eats tomatoes. But literally, for every year, I would eat a tomato and I would spit it out. I could not swallow it. So John was the same way, but at a younger age, he couldn't stand tomatoes, which is common for, obviously kids are developing their taste buds. But he joined me in that, and he was, I'll eat one every year too, you know, with me. And he spit it out. So there's A little back.

Meg Abhau [00:22:01] That's the. That's the. That's the history of it. But he said, you know, I don't like tomatoes, and that's okay. And he said, and, John, you're gay, and that's okay. And I. I love you. And so that was. That was what Jake said.

Jake Abhau [00:22:13] Yeah. And I'm thinking, you know, my twisted mind, I'm thinking, what's normal? You know, normal people like tomatoes.

Meg Abhau [00:22:19] I can't change that. I don't like tomatoes.

Jake Abhau [00:22:21] People make fun of me for it.

Meg Abhau [00:22:23] I've tried.

Jake Abhau [00:22:25] So that was my really kind of pathetic analogy in that moment.

Meg Abhau [00:22:31] You know, here I am thinking, so

Jake Abhau [00:22:33] now I understand what it's like to be gay. That's what I'm getting at.

Meg Abhau [00:22:37] But I thought that was pretty good. I was just, like, sobbing, and I love you, and just kept it together. So we talked. We all talked that night. And I remember John just being like, mom, I don't want you to be sad. Like, he just. We were both. It was just this really kind of heavy situation. I think he didn't expect that. So he just stepped outside. He went outside just to take a deep breath. And I was just looking stunned. And Jake and I were just like, what?

Jake Abhau [00:23:08] Yeah, we didn't talk to him much that night.

Meg Abhau [00:23:10] What do we do? I did.

Jake Abhau [00:23:11] I mean, us together. Yeah, we talked to each other.

Meg Abhau [00:23:15] So all of a sudden I just thought, oh, my gosh, did he just, like, run away? And I just. So I went sprinting downstairs and I went outside, and he just was pacing on the sidewalk. And I was, john, am I doing this wrong?

Meg Abhau [00:23:27] What can I do? I'm sorry. And what did you expect? What did you expect from me? And I'll be. That. I'll try. I want you to know that I love you. And we just hugged again. And he's like, mom, I'm so sorry. I don't want you to be sad. He's like, maybe I could make it work. Maybe I could be bisexual. And maybe there's just this one person out there that even gay men.

Meg Abhau [00:23:52] This one woman. And I'll find her and I'll try. And I said, well, I don't know anything about this, but whatever you choose, John will support you. And so I didn't tell him right away that, like, I was just kind of. That. That almost gave me a little bit of hope, if you will, that, okay, he can still have that vision. But then I started just thinking, I don't know. So we put him to bed that night. I tucked him in, told Him. We loved him for the millionth time, and he went to bed, and that's when we both just broke down. We were just both so sad.

Meg Abhau [00:24:30] So I was in. I don't know what Jake was doing, but I needed a moment by myself. And so I'm in my closet. The irony of that is. But I wanted a quiet space where John couldn't hear me cry. So I was in my closet, and I was. I was crying because I was just sad.

Meg Abhau [00:24:55] Some people call it like mourning the loss of the future you had for your child, but that. That's the only thing I can kind of relate it to. And I. I was just crying, and I was in this desperate situation, and I. All I knew to do as a Mormon girl was pray. And I had never prayed like this. I have never felt this desperate for comfort and to know everything was going to be okay in that moment. And so I audibly cried out. Who could deny such a soul as this?

Meg Abhau [00:25:26] And the most spiritual experience of my entire life, it started at my head, and it just poured through me. And it went all the way to my fingertips and to my toes. And I remember it to this day. And I heard the words, not I, And I felt like I knew the purpose of our gay brothers and sisters and how special they were. I don't know how it just flooded into me that they are special and that this is a gift.

Meg Abhau [00:25:56] And that Heavenly Father was aware of John and that he loved him exactly the way he was, and that he was created this way for a purpose. And interestingly enough, John told me that he felt that he was made this way for a purpose, that he knew Heavenly Father loved him and that he was totally okay with this and that this is okay with him.

Meg Abhau [00:26:19] So here I am having this amazing spiritual experience. Some people like to think of it, of the spirit within or the divine. And my head was kind of getting in the way, but all of a sudden, my heart just screamed louder, this is your son. And because I was kind of like, I don't know this boy. This is a gay boy, do I? But then it said he was gay. Yesterday, he was gay. When he came to you, you've always known this gay boy. And so all of a sudden, I just felt like this loud screaming in my mind, call Anessa. My sister Anessa, who Jake had mentioned is LGBT ally.

Meg Abhau [00:26:56] And I didn't know what that meant. What's an ally? So I call her up, and I just started crying again. I didn't know if I could spit the words out. And Anessa was like, I'm just sobbing. And she's like, oh, my gosh, did somebody die? Because I couldn't get the words out. And I said, no. And so she just got quiet, and she just kind of just waited. And I said, john's gay. And she said, meg, I can help you.

Reaching Out for Help and Finding Community

Meg Abhau [00:27:25] And within, she talked to me, and she said, I've learned so much, Meg. There's so much misunderstanding. I can help you. I know so many things. And I was like, okay, okay. And she said, I have reading material. Do you want me to send you? And I said, yes, anything. Just send me everything. And she started with Mormonsengays.org, the official church stance. And then she said, read through this, and when you're done with this, then start here. And she sent me to the affirmation page, affirmation.org and then she said, okay. And when you're done with that, read this. And so she said, go slow, take your time, read through everything, and call me if you have any questions, and we can talk about this.

Meg Abhau [00:28:08] But she said, I think John is perfect just the way he is. And I have to say, I think I saw this coming. And so she had been preparing herself for like, a year for this. And anyway, so I started reading. I didn't sleep all night long. I read and read and read. And the more I read, the more I understood. And I think knowledge is power. And I just was. I just didn't know. And so I woke John up the next morning for church. And I said, john, I have some really good news for you. And he was like, what? And I said, you're gay, and that's okay.

Meg Abhau [00:28:45] And you don't have to try to be bisexual for me. I accept you and love you just how you are. And he says, I know he knew. So then we go to the bishop that day, because we were like, right, we need ecclesiastical direction when we go from here.

Jake Abhau [00:29:05] Well, I'll go back. And so after the night that John came out to us and told us, and we. After we put him to bed and we kind of went our separate ways, Meg went into the closet. I never went into the closet. I started out of the closet.

Meg Abhau [00:29:22] That didn't dawn on me at the

Jake Abhau [00:29:23] time, but I did have. I didn't know who. I didn't really have anybody to call or reach out to. You know, we didn't have each other because we. Neither one of us knew what was going on. I mean, it wasn't. We. We weren't going to be able to help each other, other than just kind of comfort each other, but that.

Jake Abhau [00:29:41] And so when he told us, I remember looking at him, or when Meg told me through him, and he was kind of staring at the wall. I remember just kind of looking at him, probably after I said the tomato thing and just thinking he looked different. Like, really different. You know, he was like a different person to me. You know, not bad, better. Anything, just different.

Jake Abhau [00:30:04] And. And Meg mentioned already, you know, you felt like you're mourning the loss of somebody, but I think what I've realized now is you're mourning the loss of the future that you had anticipated, you know, what you've prepared for.

Jake Abhau [00:30:20] And had we been more open, I think, when we were younger to realize that there were multiple routes that. To sexuality, you know, we might have. It might not have been that way because we could have been more open and prepared for it, because, like I said, it didn't surprise me that he was gay. So if I had done a little research when I was younger or when he was younger, then that whole process probably would have been a lot smoother, a lot different.

Jake Abhau [00:30:45] So. But I remember feeling like I'm mourning the death of a child, but I'm getting a new one, you know, But I didn't know that new one yet. And so that wasn't as exciting for me because that was a new person.

Jake Abhau [00:30:59] But I was just sad about the. About the death of the old one. But I also, immediately, immediately I felt guilty for feeling that way, you know, for feeling like, why am I. Who am I? You know, I was like, how awful is that of me to act like, okay, my straight kid's dead and now I have a gay one. That seems really awful to think that. And I was feeling guilty about that.

Jake Abhau [00:31:24] And so that was my biggest dilemma, I guess. And so while she was in the closet, I actually drove. I drove. We didn't have great cell service in our house. And so I drove across the street and I had a tennis. A tennis buddy of mine that we played tennis. We play tennis together a lot. And he's a pastor for a Baptist church. And we had had long, long conversations about similars and differences between the Baptist church and the Mormon church. And we've really.

Jake Abhau [00:31:59] And at the end of each one of these discussions, we were both felt edified. They were really positive learning experiences that we were trying to help each other understand one another. Very civil conversation, because I know the whole Baptist. Mormons aren't supposed to be able to be in the same room, but he and I were really, really good friends and a great guy and one of the best people I know.

Jake Abhau [00:32:23] So I drove across the street and I called him, of all people. And I don't know why I called him first, but I called him and I told him. And I was emotional, trying to process everything, because now I had to actually say the words to somebody else. And that was my own little version of coming out, because I was admitting it to somebody else, like it was a problem, you know, which is. Back then, you know, I looked at it a little bit differently.

Jake Abhau [00:32:54] So I told him about it, and then I just told him. I said. And I feel the worst part about it is it was the way that I feel. I feel awful that I feel like I'm. I feel guilty for feeling like I'm. Like, he's. Like, he's dead. You know, there's a new one there, you know, And I felt awful about that. And he said, this guy's young. I think he's. He was probably 33, 34.

Jake Abhau [00:33:19] And I don't know a lot about the Baptist seminaries or their education, but he had been doing, I don't know, whatever his education is. I guess it would be the equivalent of a thesis or doctorate in mainstream education on basically helping Christians come to terms with homosexuality in their lives and kind of meshing the two. He'd been doing this for the last 10 to 12 years, and I had no idea. We actually never talked about this prior to that. And so when I told him, he goes, you have no idea. He said, you called the right person.

Jake Abhau [00:33:59] So here I am talking to my Baptist buddy with my Mormon kids, telling me he's gay. So that was the first person I called. But he told me, he said, that he has sat there and counseled probably 30 couples in his tenure. And he said, without exception, every single couple have felt the same way that I did, you know, and he. And he said every single one of them has felt like they've had to go through a mourning process, like they've lost somebody, you know, but then over time, you know, you realize that you get somebody as well, and then you realize it's the same somebody.

Jake Abhau [00:34:35] So, yeah, he'd mentioned my pastor friend. He'd mentioned how. How it was really, really, really common for a lot of parents to have those similar feelings. And it was really just what I needed, what I needed to hear, because I was feeling bad just about myself, that I was handling it the wrong way and that I was.

Jake Abhau [00:34:51] That John would look back on this, you know, or that I would look back on it as like I was this horrible person who, you know, couldn't accept him for how he was. And this is how.

Meg Abhau [00:35:02] What I.

Jake Abhau [00:35:02] How I internalize it, but there's some sense of, I guess by feeling like I was normal, you know, that felt better at some level. But then I haven't really talked to him again about it. We Talked for about 45 minutes to an hour and he's kind of followed up with me a little bit since then. But I kind of feel like I got what I needed from the Baptist. But, you know, but it was really

Meg Abhau [00:35:25] helpful at the time as I was forming. Well, to start out, this, this will be relevant as I was forming my thoughts about what. That. What life's going to look like for John as an out gay teenager. I'm on the phone with my sister and I'm just kind of like talking all this through and all of a sudden just this powerful protection comes over me. I've always been a mama bear, but in that moment, I told Anessa, I said, I'm not a mama bear. Isn't. Isn't tough enough. I was like, I need to be like a dragon and I need to have scales and talons and claws and I need to breathe fire.

Protecting a Gay Son From Church Harm

Meg Abhau [00:36:01] And I just all of a sudden thinking if anybody were to hurt him, it just. I. And so that, in that moment is when I kind of started telling her about that and I started feeling very protective. I even felt like I needed to protect on from Jay because I, at this point didn't know where he was at with it. We hadn't discussed it. I. We were just kind of both like, kind of processing in our own terms. And then it just.

Meg Abhau [00:36:24] I felt like I had to protect him from Jake. I felt like I had to protect him from the church. I felt like I had to protect him from anything that could hurt him or like, or anybody. And just because in that moment, that's what I was going through. And I understand children get hurt and they fall down and they get their feelings hurt and they, you know, get our hearts broken. But I just. I just started feeling very overprotective. So we go to our bishop the next day, it was Sunday, and I was just sitting in the pew and just looking around and thinking, I wonder who else, what other youth here is gay?

Meg Abhau [00:37:01] And I wonder how they're being treated. I wonder if their parents know. I wonder if they know or if they're struggling at all. Because of everything I had read that night. I started to read about the plight of LDS Youth who are gay. And I, and I just, I just started getting really nervous. So I wanted to meet with the, I wanted to meet with the bishop right away.

Meg Abhau [00:37:25] And so to kind of start that process. And I, I told him that, that John was gay and that he knows it, and we, we know it and we're fine with this. And what is where I was kind of going to be like, okay, so where's the group of moms and dads? Where can we go and kind of have a support group and meet other people like us? And he didn't have anything.

Meg Abhau [00:37:54] He had nothing for us. And I was disappointed. I think his heart generally felt sad for us. And then all of a sudden, I was getting annoyed that he was feeling sad because, is there something wrong with John? And so I instantly started getting great, Now I have to protect my son from the bishop, even though he was, like, so kind and so nice. I, I started just kind of like, John wasn't there, but I just started kind of, like, gathering him in my little mama dragon wings, like, wait, you too?

Meg Abhau [00:38:25] So I, I, everybody, it was like, he's a minor. Everybody got filtered through, and I was very careful who. I didn't want ideology to get in the way of him loving himself. I really liked where he was at that moment. I liked that he felt peace. And I didn't want that to be disrupted, if that makes sense. But we have a really, we have a really great bishop. He was really kind. He didn't have, he didn't really have anything for us. He gave us a little pamphlet, which I gave to John, and John felt that wasn't very helpful. So I didn't have anything, we didn't have anything to kind of look for. And look. So that's, yeah.

Jake Abhau [00:39:04] And I talked to our bishop several times after that, and he is a little bit more socially liberal than probably your average Mormon bishop. But he's also very, I guess he would also fall under the lines of, like, obedient as well. And so he followed the letter of the law. But some of our conversations offline were encouraging to me. But in our conversations, it felt like he was walking away with more, you know, than I was. I felt like I was just educating him on the things I learned. And this is over the next couple of months, you know, which is when we initially were going to him for the council, you know, he just, it was new to him. He hadn't, hadn't. Yeah, it was brand new not to deal with it. So that, that Sunday, which was, he told us on A Thursday night?

Meg Abhau [00:39:55] Friday. No, Saturday. Because then he. We woke up and went to church.

Jake Abhau [00:40:00] No, because it was.

Meg Abhau [00:40:02] Did we, like, say go back and look?

Jake Abhau [00:40:04] I'm pretty sure.

Meg Abhau [00:40:05] I think it was a Thursday. You're right.

Jake Abhau [00:40:06] Because on Friday was the. And I'll get this right. Friday was the. The Supreme Court. What was the deal? Everybody had read equal signs all over the Facebook page.

Meg Abhau [00:40:17] They were taking Donna to the Supreme Court. They had made a ruling yet.

Jake Abhau [00:40:20] Right. Anyway, the.

Meg Abhau [00:40:22] That's right.

Jake Abhau [00:40:23] So he came out, and the next day, we immediately saw on Facebook who. Immediately. Who allies were or who were going to be of our friends, because people were changing their statuses to that or their pictures to their red equal sign.

Meg Abhau [00:40:35] Very accommodating.

Jake Abhau [00:40:36] Yeah, it was very, very. And we were just. Mental note, check. And then some people who would make comments very, very derogatory against. We were like, okay, mental note, check. And so, yeah, the timing of that was really, really good.

Meg Abhau [00:40:50] Yeah.

Jake Abhau [00:40:51] But so over that weekend, I'd had a thought, because I'd been praying, too, and really trying to understand and internalize, like, what does this mean? We were reading scriptures in the Bible together. And, I mean, all kinds of stuff. Stuff that we didn't. I mean, I can't remember the last time we'd ever read the Bible together. Actually pored over it, you know, studying some of Christ's words.

Jake Abhau [00:41:16] But I had a thought going back to. In the Book of Mormon with Alma, for Alma the younger. I mean, Alma, the quick backstory is Alma. Alma was a. We'll just call him a religious leader in the land. And his son was basically disobedient. I like to look at him as a. He probably was out egging houses and causing all kinds of vandalism. But for him, it was all the name of the church. I mean, he fought his dad against the. You know, he fought the church, you know, because he probably had. He had issues with his father.

Jake Abhau [00:41:51] But. So, anyway, long story short is he's out and he's. He's essentially. He's visited by an angel, told that he needs to stop doing this, rendered unconscious for a couple days, and during this time, he's converted to the gospel. He has a vision or whatnot, and he's. And he's converted to the gospel, essentially wakes up the next day, and he's out off and running, preaching the gospel. And he kind of led the way for everybody else who went in and ended up teaching the Lamanites and bringing the gospel to those who were considered outcasts, I guess.

Jake Abhau [00:42:24] But my Thought on it was he's an undeserving prophet. I mean, he was. Because he did nothing, he literally did nothing for his testimony. He did nothing for that change. I would assume that his father and other people were praying for him and that kind of thing. But Alma the younger, by himself, he didn't do anything. He wasn't trying to change. And there's people that their whole lives, they struggle and they pray and they fast trying to change and they try to have a testimony or just trying to believe in God or anything, you know, and they go their whole life wanting that and don't quite get it the way that he was.

Jake Abhau [00:43:02] He was just given, given it. And so, you know, but granted he was given it and then he went off and did great things with, with that. So, so then a couple days after that Tuesday night, John came and told me that he had a project that was due or portion of a project that was due in one of his classes. He's a life skills class where he, they were actually making pillow cases in class. And he was supposed to show up at three pieces of material, different colors for his pillowcase.

Jake Abhau [00:43:33] And so it's nine or ten o' clock at night and the only place that opens is Walmart. And so we get in the car, we go to Walmart.

Meg Abhau [00:43:40] I wasn't there.

Jake Abhau [00:43:40] Yeah, no, Meg wasn't there.

Meg Abhau [00:43:42] I was asleep. Meg goes to bed really early.

Jake Abhau [00:43:46] But so we get in the car and we go and we go. And this might have been one of the first times that John and I really got to be together. Just he and I going to do something since he told us it had only been about four days.

Meg Abhau [00:43:57] And so Jake had proven to me that he could be trusted.

Jake Abhau [00:44:01] Right?

Meg Abhau [00:44:02] Right.

Jake Abhau [00:44:02] I was allowed to take our son out in public. So, so we go to Walmart and we're walking around Walmart and looking at fabric and it kind of dawned on me, you know, the stereotype I'm okay. Four days after my son tells me he's gay, I'm out picking fabric. You know, we're picking fabric out together and we had a little bit of a laugh about it.

Meg Abhau [00:44:24] Well, this is fast.

Jake Abhau [00:44:26] And you know, and you know, it was totally comfortable. But so we picked out a couple. We picked out three fabrics that he liked, three different colors and patterns, and we brought them up and we were trying to find somebody to cut them. Of course, it's now 10, 10:30, and so we finally find a gentleman. There's this African American, really, really young guy. He looked like he might have been 18, 19.

Jake Abhau [00:44:49] And I kind of got his attention. He came over to cut the fabric that we needed. And it was really apparent, you know, every stereotype out there, you know, this Walmart associate, and he fell under every one of the stereotypes. I mean, there was no way in my mind, in my judgment, that he wasn't gay. I mean, this guy was definitely gay, you know?

Jake Abhau [00:45:13] And I kind of looked down to John, and I kind of motioned him, and I said, you know, and. And he's like, really? You know, he. John didn't have any gaydar at that point, you know, And I was. And I was even thinking. I was like, wait, is it appropriate for me to even say that he's gay or I think he's gay, you know, because this is all new. And I didn't know what was appropriate or what was offensive, but.

Jake Abhau [00:45:33] And so anyway, he starts to cut our fabric, and I'm watching him cut our fabric, and I'm kind of looking at this guy, and he's behind the counter, and suddenly I realized I had this incredible urge to basically walk around the counter. I want to put my arm around him. I wanted to bring him back for dinner. I wanted to get to know this guy. Didn't know anything about him, you know, but just because of this label that I just put on him that I thought he was. He was gay. I wanted to welcome him into our house. And at that point, I realized that, like, I'd been given, like, a gift, you know, that, like, literally almost done, like, overnight, you know, to nothing.

Jake Abhau [00:46:12] I had nothing I had done. I've been given this kind of gift, if you will, to accept people in the LGBT community. I mean, just like that, you know, And I hadn't. Cause for my whole entire 40 years of life, I. You know, I saw LGBT people a little bit.

Jake Abhau [00:46:33] It was like, yeah, there's something that, you know, okay, I'm sure there are people. That's fine. But it was something that was unsettling. I didn't want to. I didn't want to overly engage, so I always had a little bit of a guard up, and now I just went. I just flipped. And it was the opposite. I wanted to. I literally wanted to climb up the counter and welcome this guy in.

A Spiritual Turning Point for the Family

Jake Abhau [00:46:48] And that's when I realized I was like, Alma. I was Alma. Where I'd been given this thing, I'd basically been given this gift. I didn't deserve it. I hadn't done anything to have this change of heart. And I had this just incredible amount of love for A group of people that I had always felt uncomfortable around, you know, and it was.

Jake Abhau [00:47:10] You know, and I was felt. I was, like, grateful. And then so to me, like, in my own mind, you know, I was like, I'm so glad. For selfish reasons. I'm so glad that John's gay because he's taught me, you know, he's taught me how to love in a way that I thought I had always loved before, but at that moment, I realized that I hadn't.

Jake Abhau [00:47:33] And so. And I told some people this later that I was like, yeah, I wouldn't. If I could make him straight, I wouldn't. You know, other people are like, really? You know, why would you wish that hard life on them? And I was like, no, because it's changed who I am, you know, and there's no way.

Jake Abhau [00:47:51] There's no way that I could ever. I don't know if I would have ever become like this if it hadn't have been for that. And when I see other allies out there who are so loving towards the LGBT community, who aren't directly affected like we are, have that much more respect for them, you know, because they came to it on their own, through their own. Their own method and their own mind. But, yeah, I owe all that to John.

Meg Abhau [00:48:19] It's always surprising to me that when I would share my. My personal experience that I had in that closet and kind of what I say was, like, my lowest moment, where I needed some assurance of him, of his standing, I guess, with God and his eternal salvation and questions that weren't answered, that aren't answered, we don't have these answers. And when I share that with people, I'm always surprised that they're not having this. They look. They aren't having the same experience that I am. So I just feel like I have a lot of work to do to kind of just gather more allies and just to help people come to a place of love and acceptance. And I just feel like, Jake, it was just kind of a gift. It was given to me.

Jake Abhau [00:49:17] And, yeah, people ask us all the time that that is the number one question that probably LGBT youth ask, or even adults.

Meg Abhau [00:49:26] Adults.

Jake Abhau [00:49:28] They ask us, like, what is it? What did you do? Or what did John do? Or what was different, you know, that made you accept John, you know, and there's not. There's not an answer. We didn't do anything. I felt we. We both feel like we were just, here you go. Here's a big plate of acceptance. You know, we just kind of ate it up, and we were just fortunate, you know, because there's so many. So many other parents that I know, or I should say children of other parents who have quite different experiences. And so we're just. I'm just glad that John. I mean that. I don't know. I'm just. I don't know. I feel really thankful that we were able to luckily just kind of be that way for John's sake.

Meg Abhau [00:50:10] Here's. Here's how I kind of like, say it. If you want something to say to your parents or if you want something to say to a friend, and you really do kind of have to unlearn everything you already know. But initially, I feel like we all have a piece of divinity within us. We all have this. In our church, we say the light of Christ, and it's just. Just pure love.

Meg Abhau [00:50:36] And what is the greatest commandment is love. So I understand that your mind and what you've learned and everything in your head can get in the way, but somehow the divine. The divine, this divine within me was able to emerge, was able to come out louder than my mind. So what I would say to people is to just learn. Learn about it. Read. There's so much to know. There's. There are noble things out there. There's so much to learn and know. And. And then. And then, like, just let your mind go and let your heart lead you, let your follow. That's really all it comes down to, is follow Christ's example of love one another.

Jake Abhau [00:51:23] For the first three or four months, I probably was unlearning more or as much as I was learning. And then after. Now I'm more learning. But there's so much unlearning that needs to be done, especially for coming from, you know, a Christian background, you know, and being politically. Politically to the right and everything else that you've kind of been told, you know, a lot of it's just not. Just not true.

Meg Abhau [00:51:51] So a couple of months after John came out, I had heard about. We. We got in contact with Randall Thacker. He's the president of Affirmation, was instantly in contact with all these people. Daniel Parkinson, Randall Thacker, Bryce Cook. Just a lot of John De Lind, Carolyn Pearson. A lot of people were reaching out to me, which was. I was so grateful for. But Randall Thacker had mentioned that there's. He. There was a D.C. pride parade coming up. In my mind, I was like, this is what we're going to do. We're gonna go march with Mormons for

Jake Abhau [00:52:27] equality, and we're not gonna tell my Husband.

Marching Together at a Pride Parade

Meg Abhau [00:52:31] I. I kind of just tricked Jake into the car. I. He didn't really know what was going on, but I was worried he would be leery of marching in a Pride parade. But I just felt like, this is. This is what I need to do. I was off. I was on fire. I was lit up. And I was telling John, like, grab your rainbow bow tie. We're gonna go march in the D.C. pride parade. Jake, bring some church clothes. Cuz we dress in church.

Meg Abhau [00:52:55] But it was a superhero theme, the parade. And so I had Jake wear Superman shirt underneath because I called Jake super. It's kind of like my term of endearment for him. He's super because he's Superman. He's just. You are. Anyway, so he. I got him a Superman shirt, and he wore a white shirt underneath it with his tie going like this way. So here's Jake kind of like, I don't know what Pride Parade really is. I'm just gonna go. He would. I could tell he was like, I don't know if I'm here yet. And I just ignored it. I was like, we're. We're gonna march as a family.

Meg Abhau [00:53:30] We're all hold hands and we're gonna march and we're gonna hold our signs and. And so we get there and there's a big banner, mormon's for equality. Just showing that though the church doesn't support marriage equality at this time, that there are people within the church that do. And I was definitely one of those people. The more I learned, the more I wanted John to have love and companionship in a marriage, and I believe that that is what God would want him to do.

Meg Abhau [00:54:02] So we're marching. So we get to TC Pride, and Jake's just kind of like a ghost. Like, I mean, there's the most amazing colorful people all around, and just in these bright headdresses. It was just so exciting. For me, it was a feast for the eyes. It's something I'd never experienced before. And I just remember feeling so much love and thinking, do you all know how special you are? Because to me, the LGBT community is special. It's more special than I am. I'm just regular. I don't know. Not regular, but anyway, so to me, I was just, like, I had just wide eyes. I was really excited.

Jake Abhau [00:54:38] And Meg talks about all the colors. I just talk about the, like, the big platform of 80 Abercrombie and Fitch models, like, in their little skinny underwear. They're dancing.

Meg Abhau [00:54:48] They look good. Those guys are. Those guys look good. But Jake was just like, yeah, it

Jake Abhau [00:54:54] was definitely a culture shock for me. But we're, you know, we're over there, this little group of Mormons. They're Sunday dress, 50 or 60 of us, maybe 16, two. But we're over there, you know, in the staging area where we have colorful people behind us, Abercrombie models in front of us.

Meg Abhau [00:55:11] Oh, we have drag queens, the most beautiful dresses. And.

Jake Abhau [00:55:14] And one of the. One of the Abercrombie models comes over. They're not really Abercrombie, but he comes over, you know, wearing almost nothing, you know, comes over. He's like, hey, I'm Mormon, you know, and do you remember this guy?

Meg Abhau [00:55:26] Yes, I do. I. And I said, and I gave him the biggest hug. And I was like, oh, me too.

Jake Abhau [00:55:34] Yeah. And he was so excited that we were there, you know, probably teary eyed. Yeah, he got really choked up.

Meg Abhau [00:55:39] It was emotional for him. He was really appreciative that we were there.

Jake Abhau [00:55:42] I guarantee that when he woke up that morning knowing that he was going to the parade and, you know, put his underwear on and that's it. But never thought he'd see a bunch of Mormons or have a conversation with Mormons. And so it was really kind of. It was neat to kind of be there and just have this little tiny impact on this individual of, you know, to represent a group of people who have been kind of perceived as the enemy for so long. And so, you know, you could see there was like this little hope, this little like, oh, wow, you know, there's only 50 of you, but wow, you know, you guys are here. This is awesome.

Meg Abhau [00:56:17] So we had these stickers that said hugged. It says hugged by Mormon.

Jake Abhau [00:56:21] I was hugged by Mormon.

Meg Abhau [00:56:22] I was hugged by Mormon. And so I said, well, I've hugged you. Do you want a sticker? And he was like, sure. I mean, so muscular. I mean, just like bulging muscles everywhere. And I just kind of took my. So I was like, okay, there you go. Okay. I just thought he was. Oh, he was. He was so nice. And it's just so genuine. And you could just tell. Yet this was the sweetest spirit. Just a good soul. Too many S's. He had a lovely soul. Good to see it in his eyes. So then somebody hands you what, you get handed a sign. Mormons for marriage equality. And Jake's like, well, I guess I'm for this now.

Jake Abhau [00:57:03] Yeah, well, I didn't know. I didn't know why we were there. I was like, okay, this is why we're here.

Guest [00:57:07] All right.

Meg Abhau [00:57:08] Okay, I You know what? I feel like I was being just a little deceptive.

Jake Abhau [00:57:16] It's okay.

Meg Abhau [00:57:17] But it all worked out.

Jake Abhau [00:57:17] No, it's fine.

Meg Abhau [00:57:19] It works out. John knew all. John knew John and I knew what was going on.

Jake Abhau [00:57:24] I would have come.

Meg Abhau [00:57:24] Yeah, he would have come regardless. I didn't know if you wouldn't.

Jake Abhau [00:57:29] Yeah.

Meg Abhau [00:57:30] So Jake's marching, of course. He's a huge hit. Everybody was loving Jake. So I had my sign. It had rainbows on. It was an equal sign. And then on the back it says Jesus. Jesus gave his love. Carolyn's Pearson song, I'll Walk with you. I quoted from it because it's been my favorite song my whole. Since it came out in the 80s. And I'm sorry, I'm forgetting. Anyway, so I was just in my rainbow dress and rainbow sign and we were walking. But Jake, Jake was a hugging machine.

Jake Abhau [00:58:13] So that was my job.

Meg Abhau [00:58:14] Tell him what happened to you.

Jake Abhau [00:58:16] Well, I was. Yeah. So our job is to hug people. And Edward Jones and I were kind of the.

Meg Abhau [00:58:21] Edward Jones was the huggers. He went crazy.

Jake Abhau [00:58:24] And so we were running along the side. We're walking at a parade marching pace, you know, pretty slow. But he and I had just this huge pamphlet of stickers. And then we're going around and, you know, every time someone's giving you a high five, you know, we're like, hey, we don't give high five. You know, we give hugs. And. And so we would give hugs and give out stickers. And, you know, and I didn't, you know, anybody that was right there, anybody that seemed engaging or anybody that seemed kind of not engaging, you know, I would.

Guest [00:58:51] Those.

Jake Abhau [00:58:51] The two people I would kind of target. And I was like, I'm gonna hug whoever. But what happened, though, what surprised me is time and time again, this probably happened 10 or 15 times during this two mile walk is I would run into somebody and I would give them a hug and they would hold me for a couple extra seconds. And so it might be like a 4 second hug, which is an eternity when you're walking in a parade, but in a small segment of time. This one individual in particular, he was able to relay this information to me that he was Mormon, he was returned missionary, he was gay, and that us being there was saving his life.

Jake Abhau [00:59:37] I mean, it was just. He said, you have no idea what kind of hope this gives for me. So he said that us being there was literate. It was like saving his life and that it gave him so much hope that if we could change or we could accept him for who he was, that he could accept him for who he was because he was raised Mormon, you know, and literally we'd had this like really, really quick conversation, really in a matter of seconds, and we kind of pulled apart, you know, and he was just in just waterfalls, just tears coming down and you know, of course I gave him a sticker, you know, but then, and then we're off, you know, and now, and now I'm 30ft behind my group and so I have to like run up and.

Jake Abhau [01:00:15] But that kept happening over and over and over. I mean, every single time I would stop, you know, about every 10 people I hugged, there was like a moment where somebody, the fact that the Mormons were there supporting them, it just made all the difference in the world. And people were shocked that we were there and just so grateful. And the biggest thing is it was hopeful because here we were, we were the perceived enemy out there and we were coming in there and saying, no, this isn't.

Jake Abhau [01:00:45] Not everybody went door to door. Prop 8. Not everybody thinks the way that you probably think that they do. So here we are doing what we can. It was a small group comparatively to obviously the size of the church in the D.C. area, but we, we represented, you know, where we could. And yeah, that I tell people all the time that that two mile walk, I mean, that's probably the single thing that changed my life probably more than anything, so. Or changed the way I looked at life.

Meg Abhau [01:01:15] Yeah. Hands down, one of the most spiritual experiences I've ever had. Just a pure love. It was like a very concentrated dose of love. And so I think, I think that's just sad that some people are keeping themselves from just loving and recognizing gifts and special qualities of people and our differences and something I was guilty of before, but thankfully I, thankfully I've had these, this experience. And I always feel so bad when people don't have a gay child. I feel bad for them because it's such a gift. It's the greatest gift of my life. And I thought just having a baby, I thought I would never have a baby.

Meg Abhau [01:02:03] And I thought that was such a gift. And I feel like I've tried to never take that for granted. That I got, I got, I get to have a child because I know that that is a gift and not everybody, that not everybody has. So I always wanted to just do the best I could as a mom and not take that for granted. And so now I feel like everybody's capable of this. You don't just need a gay child, you just need a Good heart and to be loving.

Navigating Love and Conditional Acceptance

Meg Abhau [01:02:43] And some people will feel like they're being loving to you. In the Mormon community, there's always a but if we can get rid of the I love you, but that would be amazing if it just ended there. I love you. That's where it ends.

Jake Abhau [01:03:02] Well, I always look at it. I mean, we've had a lot of conversations with members of the church who are probably trying to understand. Some of them are probably trying to understand. Some of them are probably trying to help us understand.

Jake Abhau [01:03:17] But when I talk to somebody, it's very, very simple to determine if this is going to be somebody that is worth talking to, is whether or not they're asking questions of us to try to learn what we've learned, or else if they're just trying to tell us stuff, to tell us what they know, you know, because I've had 40 years of. Of knowing what you know. You know, I mean, I've seen it. I've seen it through that lens, you know, almost my whole life, you know, and having been there and then been here is. This is so much better.

Jake Abhau [01:03:48] So much better. Feels good, you know, And I know you couldn't have. You couldn't have talked me into this, you know, you couldn't have. There's nothing that you could have said to make me. Probably make me convert, you know, but, you know, we kind of had to go through it. And like. Like Meg said, I mean, we're so thankful. We owe it. We owe it to John and John's courage to just even say something, because, I mean, most kids are in their 20s, 30s, 40s, whatever, before they ever say something, we would have missed out.

Meg Abhau [01:04:17] Yeah. So there's a lot of people in John's life, too, that we owe John's life. You know, there's a lot of things. It's just really lucky that he instantly accepted himself. And that's just. That's just.

Jake Abhau [01:04:33] Yeah, we learned really quickly how rare that was at that age, especially in the Mormon faith or any Christian kind of background, how there's not. I mean, being gay, or I should say realizing that you're gay and being of some kind of Christian denomination, they don't go together very well. And most of these kids, I mean, they suffer.

Meg Abhau [01:04:57] That was before.

Jake Abhau [01:04:58] They feel like God himself hates them. And John never had any of that. So that's been our goal ever since that. That's always been the number one priority, is to make sure that he doesn't ever get any of that. Because it's such a unique. It's such a unique part about him.

Meg Abhau [01:05:14] Yeah. That was one of the first things John told me about when he was coming out to me that first night is that he had heard about children killing themselves as early as 12 years

Guest [01:05:27] old

Meg Abhau [01:05:30] because they're gay and they feel like there's no hope. And I was stunned, and I started doing my own research. And then it just. Every. Everything I learned, it was just more and more sickening. And I thought, we have to do something. We have to change this. We can't lose one more of these beautiful, precious souls, what I think is the most precious soul. And we need our LGBT brothers and sisters. We need everybody here. We can't lose anymore. We can't lose anymore. And so that was really why John wanted to be vocal. He wanted to. He said. He told me his exact words were, I want to be a beacon of hope for other kids out there, other gay boys out there, girls or transgender. Anything that is out of the societal norm, that you can be happy and you're okay, you're perfect just how you are, and that you were made this way.

Jake Abhau [01:06:31] And, yeah, when he said, this is. Back when he was telling Meg, you know, hey, there's this thing called the closet, you know, and he thought he was educating, which just goes to show how innocent he really was about everything.

Jake Abhau [01:06:46] You tell me he's choosing to be gay. He didn't really. He didn't even know what it was. But, yeah, he said, yeah, I'm gay. I know it. I know. God knows it. I know he made me this way. And. And that's when he said he wants to be out. And, you know, and that scared. That scared us badly, because we're like, okay, you're 13. We'll help you do this, but we'll do it as a family. We'll do it kind of on our terms, too, a little bit, because we know. We felt like we had to protect him from the unknown a little bit. But we realized really, really quickly he was.

Jake Abhau [01:07:19] He was going to have none of that, because his motivation for coming out was to be out. So that other kid who sat in the classroom across from him, who was also gay, felt like he had somebody else that was like him, somebody else that he could kind of lean on. And that's why John said, he goes, I want to be a beacon of hope and light for those, you know, those who don't have any. And that just in the time, I mean, I don't think I didn't realize, like, how powerful that was, you know, or how Mature, that was. But that was his motivation. Was, was not for him, it was for other kids that were probably in his school.

Meg Abhau [01:07:57] I think some of the most selfless people I have ever met are gay or fall under the LGBT category for sure. So that's just a selfless part of him. And interestingly enough, once he did come out at school, he. There's this domino effect, like everybody comes out, everybody that is lgbt, they're all out at school. And since we've left, since we've left, it's just kind of this steamroll effect. And they're all felt like it gave everybody courage to be their own. So John accomplished what he set out to do.

Jake Abhau [01:08:37] We began to research options for John for the future of what it would be like to be gay, be a Mormon, and for the future options that you had as we with the church and the church. Basically, the doctrines of the church are very clear. And they teach that, you know, while people don't choose to be gay, you know, obviously choosing what lifestyle they choose or what lifestyle they go is their choice, but that leaves very little options for somebody. I mean, that leaves a life of celibacy. And to me, that when people talk about celibacy, that suggestion that being gay is only about sex, which is not, you know, it's not just being celibate.

Jake Abhau [01:09:21] The end result of being celibate is also being alone. And that's, I mean, nobody. That's not for anybody, in my opinion. And so that leaves John's future of being alone, or it leaves him in a mixed orientation situation where he would be with a woman, somebody that he'd be limited, I would say, in how much he could love.

Options Facing Gay Members in the Church

Jake Abhau [01:09:46] But I think even the church, they don't even encourage those kinds of relationships anymore. And then of course, the other option is to being with someone of his same sex. And whatever he decides to do, we'll support, because ultimately it's about his happiness. And as long as he holds tight to the foundation and the morals, then they apply across the board. Whether you're gay, straight or anything.

Jake Abhau [01:10:16] Those morals are still ingrained in us and we want to pass those on. Because the principles that the Mormon Church teaches are sound. They're sound principles. I mean, the family structure, I understand why they support the family structure, but I also can see another family structure that may be out of the norm a little bit, but equally, it can be equally supported.

Jake Abhau [01:10:45] So as we did research on a lot of this, we came across the Family Acceptance Project, and Meg did a lot more research into that. And Got involved really quickly. Do you want to talk about that?

Meg Abhau [01:11:00] Yeah, sure. It does kind of shed a light on the plight of a gay teenager and the percentages that I was reading, which I recommend to everybody to read the Family Acceptance Project. But the threat when children aren't accepted is the threat of drug addiction, suicide, promiscuity, all of these things when you're kind of bottling something up and not being accepted for who you really. Which is intrinsic and is your orientation. My orientation is intrinsic in me. And so I got in contact with a really good group of people, and they were. I just got more information, and so I felt like I was armed and ready to protect him.

Meg Abhau [01:11:49] Another thing that it kind of warned against was homelessness in our LGBT youth community, and that there were. We have. We have. The suicide rates right now with LGBT kids or with teenagers in general are at epidemic levels. And for some reason, that wasn't.

Meg Abhau [01:12:14] That doesn't sink into people like it did me. I thought that was the deal breaker here. I felt like I was saving my child's life. I'm giving him the best chance at happiness and a wonderful time, future, and just by loving and accepting him.

Meg Abhau [01:12:31] But for some reason, that wasn't. That doesn't fall into the cultural norm of our church. So I would reference, if I could, the 11th article of faith, which kind of gave me permission to follow my heart and that I was taught personal revelation. Our church is founded on personal revelation. So I felt entitled to my own personal revelation about my family and my child. And the 11th article of faith says we claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty. Sorry. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience and allow all men the same privilege.

Meg Abhau [01:13:16] Let them worship how, where, or what they may. So I started putting that into the context of. How I can view this and with my own conscience and with my own heart and with revelation, that personal revelation that I feel that it was very strong and very direct to me and just know that I'm doing the right thing. And yes, I think some of my ideals ideologically go against the church, but most of it does.

Meg Abhau [01:13:51] I want him to be chaste, and I want him to be respectful. And all of the things that I would require him before, I still require of him. And I want him to get married. I want him to have fidelity with his spouse, and I want all these things, the same things for him. I just know that it, or it most likely will be with someone of his same gender.

Jake Abhau [01:14:17] And, you know, right now There really is no revealed doctrine on LGBT people. I mean, the only thing that we know is what. Because they don't fit into the mold that the church has set forth. This is how you gain salvation. You do this. Well, if you're lgbt, it's a little bit different, because you don't. That's a different path for you. It's more of what you can't do and not about what you can do. And so I think what Meg's saying, too, is, you know, we're entitled to some kind of personal revelation here to help guide our son towards his own salvation, you know, and help lead him the right way and give him some principles for him to follow for when there may or may not be other doctrines revealed.

Jake Abhau [01:15:02] I mean, who knows what the future will be? But it's hard to lead somebody down a path of a bunch of cannots, because that's just a path that doesn't exist. And so we love the Mormon Church and the foundations and the teachings and the moral guide that it offers, and we would hope that John would follow those same moral principles, what. No matter what he decides to do with his life or who he decides to be with.

Meg Abhau [01:15:31] So, yes, basically what I would suggest is for people to, like I said, listen to your own heart, but just, you know, get. Get your own personal revelation about this and accept and embrace your child and. And see what a blessing it is and that they are a treasure that. That should be treasured. They are.

Advocating Against Rejection of LGBT Youth

Meg Abhau [01:15:55] And when I hear about another child being neglected or kicked out of their home and living on the streets in the wintertime. There's a camp in a valley in Utah called Safe and Sound, and they have the biggest request of the homeless youth that are living in these tents there.

Meg Abhau [01:16:21] The laws are stated as such in Utah that you can't. Underage kids can't go to homeless shelters. So Safe and Sound offers them shelter and protection with tents. It's the best they can do. They can't offer a permanent structure, so their greatest request is a piece of board, like wood board, so they don't have to sleep on the frozen ground.

Meg Abhau [01:16:48] And these are your deacons and your priests passing you the sacrament, and they. They're thrown out. And that is unacceptable to me. If I had a big enough home, I would take them all in. You know, I would. But that was very disappointing for me when I heard that. Never, ever crossed my mind to throw my child out.

Jake Abhau [01:17:17] I agree. The weird thing is, I think it's happening from loving parents who honestly feel that they are Doing the child a favor.

Meg Abhau [01:17:27] Yes. It is not taught over the pulpit to throw your child out of the home. That's not what the LDS Church would teach. But for some reason parents, I've heard of parents kicking them, their child out to give them some tough love, come back once you're straight or, you know, and they feel like they're honestly doing the best thing for them. And that's, that's really kind of the saddest part.

Jake Abhau [01:17:56] And it goes to. What I was saying is I think I'm just thinking as a, as a priesthood holder in the home, if I was going to do that. I'm just trying to justify the thought process is you're told that gay lifestyle, being gay or whatever is not, it's not right.

Jake Abhau [01:18:18] You can't make that choice in life and receive salvation. And so all that, you know, okay, if you can't do that well, then the only way to receive exaltation completely is if you end up straight eventually, some level. And so I think a lot of parents are like, well, I'm going to teach them really young that their path that they're, that they're on right now won't get them anywhere. You know, hopefully if I show them tough love that that'll turn them around and that. And that's the biggest, it's kind of the biggest. I don't know, it's a conundrum really of there is no, because there is no pathway for the, for the gay youth.

Jake Abhau [01:18:56] There's no, there's not a, there's not a pamphlet, you know, that tells you, you know, what you're supposed to do, what you're not supposed to do. It's just one that says, it's just one for all the straight kids to say what, you know, that if you're gay, you know, you can't do any of this.

Jake Abhau [01:19:14] But it's. And I don't think parents know what to do, you know, and I don't, you know, that's why I feel lucky for the gifts that we've kind of been given because we could have easily been like any other parent out there. And I don't know why we weren't. But I'm glad for John's sake.

Meg Abhau [01:19:35] So we came out to the ward with a letter. We just starting the process of coming out. We started with my family and it was very well received. My family was very loving. And then we came out to the ward. We got a lot of positive feedback from the ward. But I wondered the coming up fast Sunday, what might be said or what messages received. And I just wanted John to be left with a message of love from his mom. And so I sprinted to the pulpit. I was the first one up there.

Meg Abhau [01:20:06] And I shared an experience that I'd had just the day before. It was a Saturday. I was trying to get somewhere really quickly, but I was stuck in traffic. And I was getting all frustrated that I was stuck in traffic. But I noticed that there was a man on the side of the road that was asking for money, and he was homeless. And usually I would hear the voice of my father in my head saying, he's just going to use that to buy beer or, you know, or whatever. But I just thought that, you know, at that moment, like, whoa, whoa, whoa, what would Jesus do?

Meg Abhau [01:20:46] And so I rolled the window down and I thought I was giving him a dollar, and I saw that it was $5, and I felt even better. And I was giving to him. And I thought, why have I been.

Meg Abhau [01:20:55] This feels amazing to give and just to love. And who cares if he's going to go buy beer? Who cares what he's going to do with it? But it's my responsibility to feel love and take care of my fellow man. So I was bearing my testimony on this and I said, Jesus, when he healed a lame man, he didn't immediately say, now what are you going to do with those legs? Are you going to do good deeds with those legs?

Meg Abhau [01:21:22] There were no circumstances to his love. It wasn't conditional. It was just. He just healed and he gave love. And so I finished my testimony with that. Jesus said, love thy neighbor. Who is our neighbor, everyone. And I sat down and I, you know, said, in the name of Jesus Christ, amen. And I sat down and I just wanted. I just wanted. I didn't say anything about John. I didn't really say any messages, but I just wanted a message of unconditional love. And that, that message, that beautiful message that we get from Christ and Christ's teachings.

Daniel Parkinson [01:21:53] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories Podcast to discuss this podcast with others. Please check us out@mormonstories.org to join one of our 80 plus support communities across the globe. Click on the Support communities tab@mormonstories.org to keep this podcast alive. Please consider a tax deductible donation today by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org a big thanks to the Saber Rattlers for providing the music for today's episode. The Mormon Stories logo was generously donated by studiocase.com come, come, you saints.

Guest [01:22:28] No toil nor labor fear but with joy wend your way Though hard to you this journey may appear, Grace shall be as your day, Tis better far for us to strive Our useless cares from us to drive to the San Jo, you, hearts will swell, oh, all is well, all is well.

Part Two Begins: Family Reflects on Their Journey

Part 2 of 3 · Ep. 509

Daniel Parkinson [00:00:00] Foreign. Stories. Podcast. Is. A. Production. Of. The. Open. Stories. Foundation. All. Donations. To. Mormon. Stories. Are. Fully. Tax. Deductible. And. Go. Directly. Towards. Keeping. The. Podcast. Alive. And. Towards. Building. A. Community. Of. Support. For. Mormons. Like. You. Come. Come.

Meg Abhau [00:00:20] Ye.

Daniel Parkinson [00:00:20] Saints.

Meg Abhau [00:00:22] No.

Daniel Parkinson [00:00:22] Toil.

Meg Abhau [00:00:23] Nor.

Daniel Parkinson [00:00:23] Labor. Fear. But. With. Joy. When. You're. Away. John. I. Was. Just. Wondering. If. You. Would. Tell. Us. About. Coming. Out. To. Your. School. Or. Do. You. Want. To. Talk. About. Your. Process. Of. Coming. Out. Like. How. You.

Meg Abhau [00:00:43] Learned.

Daniel Parkinson [00:00:43] About. It. You. Told. Me. Before. Yeah. What. Made. You. Decide. To. Go. Look. Look. Into. That. Issue. And. What. Made. You. Think. You. Might. Be. Needing. To. Figure. This. Out. Well. I. Don't. Exactly. Remember. Where. But. I. Saw. Two. Guys. Kissing. And. Just. Something. Inside. Me. It. Just. Felt. Right. For. Some. Reason. I'm. Not. Sure. I. Wasn't. Really. Sure. How. How. Or. Why. And. It. Was. Nearing. It. Was. Near. The.

Meg Abhau [00:01:20] End.

Daniel Parkinson [00:01:20] Of. The. Quarter. In. School. And. We. Had. This. Big. Party. Thing. When. We. Were. Just. Outside. All. Day. We. Could. Pretty. Much. Just. Do. Whatever. We. Want. Talk. With. Friends. And. So. I've. Been. I. Was. Researching. Before. Just. A. Little. About. Like. Doing. All. These. Pointless. Tests. Like. To. See. And. They. Came.

Meg Abhau [00:01:47] Up.

Daniel Parkinson [00:01:48] Like. Bisexual. But. The. More.

Meg Abhau [00:01:49] I.

Daniel Parkinson [00:01:50] Did.

Meg Abhau [00:01:50] Them.

Daniel Parkinson [00:01:51] The. Higher. The. Percentage. Was. That. I. Was. Gay. But. So. I. Started. So. At. School. On. The. Day. When. We. Had. Free. Time. I. Asked. A. Friend. If. He. Ever. Knew. Anyone. Who's. Gay. Or. Bisexual. And. He. Pulled. Me. Aside. And.

Meg Abhau [00:02:11] He. Asked.

Daniel Parkinson [00:02:12] Me. If. I. Had. Any. Feelings. Of. Homosexuality. And. Something. Inside. Me. Just. Urged. Me. To. Say. Yes. And. I. Did.

Meg Abhau [00:02:20] And.

Daniel Parkinson [00:02:21] He. Shared. With. Me.

Meg Abhau [00:02:22] That.

Daniel Parkinson [00:02:23] He. Also. Had. The. Same. Feelings. And. We. Just. Talked. Probably. Two. Hours. About. That. And. It. Was. Really. Helpful. For. Both. Of. Us. Talk.

Meg Abhau [00:02:35] A.

Daniel Parkinson [00:02:35] Little. Bit. About. Researching. Though. You. Researched. A. Lot. And. You. Want. You. Yeah. So. Over. A. Course. Of. A. Week.

Meg Abhau [00:02:42] I.

Daniel Parkinson [00:02:43] Was. Just. Kind. Of. Researching. Just. Kind. Of. Like. What. Made. People. Gay. Or.

Meg Abhau [00:02:51] If.

Daniel Parkinson [00:02:51] It. Was. A. Choice. Which. I. Found. Out. It. Wasn't. And. Yeah. I. Don't. Really. Know. I. Didn't. Research. A. Lot. Do. You. Want. To. Talk. About. Andy. At. All. Or. Is. That.

Meg Abhau [00:03:07] Or. Just.

Daniel Parkinson [00:03:08] Talk.

Meg Abhau [00:03:08] About. Coming. Out. At. School.

Daniel Parkinson [00:03:10] Yeah.

Meg Abhau [00:03:10] Just. Tell. Your. Coming. Out. Story.

Daniel Parkinson [00:03:12] Like. After. You. Came. Out.

Meg Abhau [00:03:13] To.

Daniel Parkinson [00:03:13] Us. And. We. Were. Like. And. You. Were. Just. Like. I'm. Doing. This. I. Don't. Really. Care. No. So. Normally. On. Friday. We. Have. A. Frozen. Yogurt. Shop. Called. Yolo. Near. Our. School. That. We. Walk. To. Every. Friday. After. School. And. So. I. Was. Just. Kind. Of. Tired. Of. Being.

Meg Abhau [00:03:37] In.

Daniel Parkinson [00:03:38] The. Closet. I. Just. Wanted. To. Just. Come. Out. And. I. Already. Planned. To. Do. It. Monday. But. I. Was. Just. Too. Impatient. So. I. Just. Went. Up. To. One. Of. My.

Meg Abhau [00:03:51] Friends.

Daniel Parkinson [00:03:51] Who. She. Was. A.

Meg Abhau [00:03:54] Good.

Daniel Parkinson [00:03:54] Friend. But. She. Kind. Of. Teased. Me. About. Being. Gay. But. It. Was. All. A. Joke. And. She. Kind.

Meg Abhau [00:04:00] Of.

Daniel Parkinson [00:04:00] Had. A. Little. Crush. On. Me.

Meg Abhau [00:04:01] A. Little. Bit.

Daniel Parkinson [00:04:01] Just. A. Little.

Meg Abhau [00:04:03] How. Could. You. Not. So.

Daniel Parkinson [00:04:08] I. Came. Up. To. Her. And.

Meg Abhau [00:04:09] I.

Daniel Parkinson [00:04:09] Just. Go. I'm. Gay. And. I. Walk. Around. The. Counter. To. Just. Start. Ordering. Ice. Cream. Or. Whatever. Just. Like. There. Was. Nothing. To. It. And. Her. Face. Her. Jaw. Just. Dropped. It. Was. Really. Funny. And. She. Had. Some. Of. Some. More. Friends. That. Were. Also. My.

Meg Abhau [00:04:28] Friends.

Daniel Parkinson [00:04:29] There. And. Sierra. A. Friend. From. The. Ward. Just. Started. Laughing. At. Her. Reaction. Because. She. Already. Knew. But.

Meg Abhau [00:04:38] Because. We.

Daniel Parkinson [00:04:38] Had.

Meg Abhau [00:04:38] Come. Out. To.

Daniel Parkinson [00:04:39] The.

Meg Abhau [00:04:39] Ward. At.

Daniel Parkinson [00:04:39] That. Point.

Meg Abhau [00:04:41] But. It. Says. A.

Daniel Parkinson [00:04:42] Lot.

Meg Abhau [00:04:42] About. Sierra's. Character.

Daniel Parkinson [00:04:43] That.

Meg Abhau [00:04:44] She. Never. Talked. She. Never. Gossiped. About. It.

Daniel Parkinson [00:04:46] Or. Talked.

Meg Abhau [00:04:46] About. It. Sierra.

Daniel Parkinson [00:04:47] And.

Meg Abhau [00:04:48] John. Were. Very. Good. Friends. He. Got. A.

Daniel Parkinson [00:04:50] Lot.

Meg Abhau [00:04:50] Of. Acceptance. From. All. Of. His. Friends. In. Our. Ward. And. Then. You. Said. Go. Ahead. And. Tell. I'm. Not.

Daniel Parkinson [00:05:00] Yeah. And. So. I. I. Said. That. Maybe. They. Could. Spread. The. Word. Or. Whatever. I. Didn't. Really. Care. I. Actually. Told. One. Of. My. Friends. To. Tell. Other. People.

Meg Abhau [00:05:10] And.

Daniel Parkinson [00:05:11] Then. On. Monday. Pretty. Much. Everyone. Knew. But.

Meg Abhau [00:05:15] And. Then. You. What. Did. One. Girl. Say. To. You. I. Always. Wanted.

Daniel Parkinson [00:05:20] A. Gay.

Meg Abhau [00:05:20] Friend.

Daniel Parkinson [00:05:22] Yeah. There. Was. A. Lot. Of. Girls. Who. Told. Me. I've. Always. Wanted. A. Gay. Best. Friend. And. I. Became. Everyone's. Gay. Best. Friend. Yeah. Tell. The. Story. About. The. Other. Girl. That. The. Really. Christian. Girl. Yeah. So. She. Just. Says.

Meg Abhau [00:05:43] This.

Daniel Parkinson [00:05:43] Was.

Meg Abhau [00:05:43] The. Only. Negative. Comment. Pretty.

Daniel Parkinson [00:05:45] Much.

Meg Abhau [00:05:46] Yeah.

Daniel Parkinson [00:05:46] Pretty. Much.

Meg Abhau [00:05:46] The.

Daniel Parkinson [00:05:46] Only. Negative. Except. She. Wasn't. Even. Trying. To.

Meg Abhau [00:05:48] Be.

Daniel Parkinson [00:05:48] Negative. She.

Meg Abhau [00:05:49] Was.

Daniel Parkinson [00:05:49] Just. She. Said. I. Don't. Mean. To. Offend. You. But. You. Know. You're. Going. To. Hell. Because. You're.

Meg Abhau [00:05:56] Gay.

Daniel Parkinson [00:05:56] And. I. Didn't. Really. Know. What. To. Say. But. Inside. I. Just. Wanted. To. Like. Just. Pat. Her. On. The. Head. And. Say. It's. Okay. Just. Because. She. Didn't. You'll. Understand. One. Day. Yeah. She. Didn't. Know. Much.

Meg Abhau [00:06:10] She. Needed. Some.

Daniel Parkinson [00:06:11] Education. So. That. Helped. Us. Deal. With. Some. Members. Of. The. Church. Too. Who. Are. Really. Kind. Of. Aggressively. Wanted. To. Let. Us. Know.

Meg Abhau [00:06:21] Yeah.

Daniel Parkinson [00:06:22] They. Wanted. To. Reteach. Us. The. Stuff. That. We. Learned. For. The. Last. Forty. Years.

Meg Abhau [00:06:25] I.

Daniel Parkinson [00:06:25] Guess. But. We. We. Just. Thought. Of. Them. As. Like. Little. Children. You. Know. And. It. Helped. Us. Have. Patience.

Meg Abhau [00:06:31] With.

Daniel Parkinson [00:06:31] It. Kind. Of. That. Mentality. It's. Like. You. Know. It's. Okay. You. Know. Like. If.

Meg Abhau [00:06:35] A.

Daniel Parkinson [00:06:36] Three. Year.

Meg Abhau [00:06:36] Old.

Daniel Parkinson [00:06:36] Is. Telling. You. How. To. Drive. A. Car. You. Know. Put.

Meg Abhau [00:06:39] Both.

Daniel Parkinson [00:06:40] Hands. On. The. Wheel. You. Know. Or. Whatever. You. Know. It's. Like. I. Know. Well. And. You. Just. Humor. Them. And. You. You. Know. It. Doesn't. Hurt.

Meg Abhau [00:06:47] John. Really. Led. By. Example. To. Me. Is. I. Would. Watch. Him. React. To. Things. Situations. And. His. Thoughts. On. It. Because. I. Would. Get. So. Fired. Up. My. Mom. And. Dragon. Just. Flare. Up. And. I.

Daniel Parkinson [00:06:59] Would.

Meg Abhau [00:06:59] Want. To.

Daniel Parkinson [00:07:00] Just.

Meg Abhau [00:07:00] Bite. Someone's. Head.

Daniel Parkinson [00:07:01] Off.

Meg Abhau [00:07:01] And. John. Had.

Daniel Parkinson [00:07:02] So.

Meg Abhau [00:07:02] Much. Patience. With. Everyone. And. He. Just. Was. Like. That's. That's. How. They. Feel. You. Know. And. He. Just. He. Was. Very. Understanding. But. I. Just. Thought. What's. That. Selfless. Part. Of. Him. Again.

Daniel Parkinson [00:07:16] And. Meg.

Meg Abhau [00:07:17] And.

Daniel Parkinson [00:07:17] I. Were. A. Good. I. Think. Our. We. Were. A. Good. Team. Out. Of. This. Because. Meg. Came. Out. Protecting. The. Lgbt. Community. And. That. Was. Like. Every. Like. Last. Minute. Of. The. Day. I. Swear. Was. Her. Either. Researching. Or.

Meg Abhau [00:07:31] Doing.

Daniel Parkinson [00:07:31] Something. Or. Texting. Somebody. Or. Facebooking. Somebody. And. People. Were. Coming. When. We. Got. On. Facebook. People. Were. Coming. Out. To. Meg. Left. And. Right. That. Hadn't. Come. Out. To. Anybody. Because. She. Put. Herself. Out. There. As. The. Biggest. Ally. You. Know. Like. This. Just. Mom. That. I'll. Be. Your. Mom. Too. And. I'll. Be. Your. Mom. You. Know. And. I'll. Protect. All. Of. You. And. She's. Been. So. Good. At. That. The. Whole. Way. I've.

Meg Abhau [00:07:52] Always. Wanted. More. Children.

Daniel Parkinson [00:07:53] Yeah. So. Now. She. Has. Some. Of. Them. Older. Than. She. Is. I.

Meg Abhau [00:07:55] Have. Hundreds.

Daniel Parkinson [00:07:58] Where. My. Role. Has. Been. More. With. The. People. In. The. Church. And. Like. Trying. To. Understand. And. Because. I. Remember. I. Feel. Like. I. Still. Remember. It. Really. Well. How. I. Used. To. Think. And. How. I. Used. To. Used. To. Process. Information. You. Know. And. I. Can. Still. Kind. Of. Speak. That. Language. You. Know. And. Try. To. Speak. To. Where. I. Won't. Offend. Because. I. Remember. What. Might. Have. Offended. Me. Back. Then. So. We. Have. A. Good. Balance. Of. Our. Roles. Kind. Of. In. This. Situation. And. We. Wouldn't. Be.

Meg Abhau [00:08:31] Able.

Daniel Parkinson [00:08:31] To. Do. It. With. John. Without. John. I. Mean. We. Wouldn't. Be. Able. To. Do. It. With. You. You've. Had. Some. At. Least. One. Of. Your. Cousins. Maybe. Some. More. Do. You. Want. To. Talk. About. Like. Coming. Out. To. Them. And. If. They've. Been. Supportive. And. Stuff. Like. That. How.

Meg Abhau [00:08:46] Many.

Daniel Parkinson [00:08:46] People. Who. Doesn't. Know. I. Mean.

Meg Abhau [00:08:49] Well. Some. Of. My. Siblings. Have. Asked. That. They. Be. Able. To. Tell. Their. Children. When. They. Feel. Comfortable. And. They. Feel. Like.

Daniel Parkinson [00:08:55] Their.

Meg Abhau [00:08:55] Children. Can. Understand. So. The.

Daniel Parkinson [00:08:57] Little.

Meg Abhau [00:08:57] Ones. Don't. Know. But. Most. Of. All. The. Teenagers. Know.

Daniel Parkinson [00:09:04] What. About. For. You. Any. Conversations. That. You've. Had. With. Particular. People. That. You'd. Like. To. Share. On. How. They've. Reacted. Or. Maybe. Helped. You.

Meg Abhau [00:09:10] Or. I. Tell.

Daniel Parkinson [00:09:10] You.

Meg Abhau [00:09:10] What. Robin.

Daniel Parkinson [00:09:11] Said. I. Don't. Remember. Anything.

Meg Abhau [00:09:16] Remember. Rob. You. Called. Robin. You. Skyped.

Daniel Parkinson [00:09:20] And. I. Typed. Because. I. Couldn't. Say.

Meg Abhau [00:09:22] It. He. Couldn't. Say. It. So. He. Typed. It. And. She. Said. Do.

Daniel Parkinson [00:09:26] You.

Meg Abhau [00:09:26] Remember. What. She. Said. John. You're. My. Cousin. And. I. Love. You. Doesn't. Matter. To. Me. Who. You. Love. And. Then. They. Just. Spent. The. Rest.

Daniel Parkinson [00:09:35] Of.

Meg Abhau [00:09:35] The. Conversation. Talking. About. Whatever. Teenagers. Talk. About. She's. Been. His. Best. Friend. And. Biggest. Supporter. Since. Then. And. He's. Had. Very. Similar. Experiences. With. All. Of. His. Cousins. They've. All. Just. Loved. Him. Unconditionally. And. This. Doesn't. Change.

Daniel Parkinson [00:09:53] The.

Meg Abhau [00:09:53] Way. They. Treat. Him. Or. Feel. About. Him. And. One. Of. My. Sisters. Said. That. It.

Daniel Parkinson [00:09:57] Was.

Meg Abhau [00:09:57] A. Really. Proud. Moment. For. Her. As.

Daniel Parkinson [00:10:00] A.

Meg Abhau [00:10:00] Parent. To. See.

Daniel Parkinson [00:10:01] How.

Meg Abhau [00:10:01] Much. Love. And. Concern. And. Compassion. That.

Daniel Parkinson [00:10:04] Her.

Meg Abhau [00:10:04] Teenagers.

Daniel Parkinson [00:10:05] Had. When. She. Told. Them.

Meg Abhau [00:10:06] Their. Greatest. Concern. Was. For. John. And. If. He. Would. Be. Bullied. Or. If. He. Would. Feel. If. He. Would. Have. Any. Trials. Or. Hard. Times. In. His. Life. And. So. Got. A.

Daniel Parkinson [00:10:19] Lot.

Meg Abhau [00:10:19] Of. Big. Hearts. In. Our. Family. My. All. My. Nieces. And. Nephews.

Daniel Parkinson [00:10:24] Yeah. I.

Meg Abhau [00:10:24] Don't. Think.

Daniel Parkinson [00:10:25] I've. Gotten. Any. Bad. Comments. At. All. Even. If.

Meg Abhau [00:10:29] Like.

Daniel Parkinson [00:10:30] They. Either. Don't. Say. Anything. Or. They're. Super. Supportive. That's. Right. Could. You. Just. Tell. Us. A. Little. Narrative. Of. What. You. Want. To. Do. With. Your. Life. I. Know. You. Got. Some. Different. Plans. You. Don't. Have. To. You. Don't. You. Don't. Have. To. Actually. Do. These. Things. But. Just. What. Are. Some. Of. Your. Different. Dreams. Okay. Well. When. I. Grow. Up. I. Want. To. Be. A. Doctor. I. Want. To. Be. An. Anesthesiologist. And. That'll. Require. A. Lot. Of. School. So. That'll. Take. Up. Most. Of. I. Don't. Know. What. I. Was. Gonna.

Meg Abhau [00:11:06] Say. Your. Twenties.

Daniel Parkinson [00:11:07] Yeah. Most.

Meg Abhau [00:11:08] Of.

Daniel Parkinson [00:11:08] My. Twenties. And. Like. I. Want. I. Want. To. Have. A. Family. And. They. Are. They.

Meg Abhau [00:11:20] Are. I.

Daniel Parkinson [00:11:20] Don't. I. Don't. Know. Like. I. Just. I. Just. Want. Kind. Of. A. Normal. Life. But. Just. With. A. Guy. Instead. Of. A. Girl. Yeah. I. Don't. So.

Meg Abhau [00:11:39] Those. Grandbabies. That. I. Was. Scared. I. Would. Lose. John. Doesn't. Plan. On. Losing.

Daniel Parkinson [00:11:44] Them.

Meg Abhau [00:11:46] So. We'll. See.

Daniel Parkinson [00:11:48] What.

Meg Abhau [00:11:48] The. Future. Holds.

Daniel Parkinson [00:11:54] Could. You. Also. Maybe. Talk. About. I'm. Saying. These. Things. I. Think. These. Are. Things. People. Need. To. Hear. About. A.

Meg Abhau [00:12:02] Little.

Daniel Parkinson [00:12:02] Bit. But. One. Of. Those. Is. That. You. Know. Your. Parents. Told. Us. Already. That. They. Were. Already. That. They. Were. Pretty. Strict. Are. They. Any. Different. Now. I. Mean. I. Feel. Like. Rules. And. Expectations. Have. All. Stayed. The. Same. Like. Nothing's. Changed. At. All. And.

Meg Abhau [00:12:24] When. Can. You. Date.

Daniel Parkinson [00:12:25] Sixteen.

Meg Abhau [00:12:26] Sixteen. That's. Right. And. Still. Expect. You. To. Keep. High. Standards. And. Morals. And. Be. A. Gentleman. So. Movies. No. Everything's. The.

Daniel Parkinson [00:12:52] Same. I.

Meg Abhau [00:12:52] Mean.

Daniel Parkinson [00:12:52] You're.

Meg Abhau [00:12:52] Fourteen. Now. You're. Fourteen. So. We. Do. We. Do. Have. A. Little. Bit. More. Leniency. On. Movies. But. That. Was. Coming. Anyway. But.

Daniel Parkinson [00:13:01] You. Know.

Meg Abhau [00:13:01] We. Still. Have.

Daniel Parkinson [00:13:01] To.

Meg Abhau [00:13:01] Preview. Them. And.

Daniel Parkinson [00:13:03] Make.

Meg Abhau [00:13:03] Sure. They're. Okay. And. We. Look. Up.

Daniel Parkinson [00:13:04] On.

Meg Abhau [00:13:05] The. Parent. Guide. What's. In. This. Movie. Is. This. Something. I.

Daniel Parkinson [00:13:08] Went. Down.

Meg Abhau [00:13:09] To. See. So. I. Still. Have. That. Early. Strict.

Daniel Parkinson [00:13:14] It. Was. It. Was. Interesting. We. Did. We. Had. A. Very. Strict. Rule. We. Didn't. Allow. Him. To. Watch. Glee. You. Know. Mostly. Because. It. Was. We. Felt. It. Was. A. Little. Bit. Inappropriate. Or. Whatever. But. Actually. After. We. Found. Out. That. That. He. Was. Gay. After. He. Told. Us.

Meg Abhau [00:13:26] He.

Daniel Parkinson [00:13:27] Was. Gay. We. Allowed. Him. To. Watch. It. A. Little. Bit. Because. I. Think. It. Painted. It. Is. Tv. But. There's. A. Character.

Meg Abhau [00:13:33] In.

Daniel Parkinson [00:13:33] There. Who. Was. Gay. Well. Now. I. Think. There's. Several. But. It. Painted. A. Little. Bit. Of. An. Idea. Of. What. It. Might. Be. Like.

Meg Abhau [00:13:39] In.

Daniel Parkinson [00:13:40] High. School. Real. Or. Not. And. So. We. Actually. Allowed. Him. To. Watch. That. And. It's. Full. Of. Music. And. He's.

Meg Abhau [00:13:44] All.

Daniel Parkinson [00:13:45] About. Music. And. So. That. Was. The. Reason. He. Really. Wanted. To. Watch. At. The. Beginning. Was. The. Music. But. There. Were. Just. Certain. Things. That. Were. Probably. More. High. School. Level. That. We. Were. Shielding. Him. From. As. A. Twelve.

Meg Abhau [00:13:55] Or.

Daniel Parkinson [00:13:55] Thirteen. Year. Old. When. It. Was. On. But. Then. Later. We. Thought. There. May. Be. Some. Good. Things. In.

Meg Abhau [00:14:01] There.

Daniel Parkinson [00:14:01] Actually. That. Might. Be. Helpful.

Meg Abhau [00:14:04] Yeah. Also. John. Do. You. Remember. Saying. This. To. Me. Something. John. Said. To. Me. Was. That. I. Don't. Know. What. My. Future. Could.

Daniel Parkinson [00:14:11] Look.

Meg Abhau [00:14:11] Like.

Daniel Parkinson [00:14:11] I.

Meg Abhau [00:14:11] Don't.

Daniel Parkinson [00:14:12] Know.

Meg Abhau [00:14:12] What. This.

Daniel Parkinson [00:14:12] Could.

Meg Abhau [00:14:12] Look. Like. So. I. All. Of. A. Sudden. Just. Popped. My. Eyes. Open. And. Realized. This. Is. A. Heteronormative. World. We. Live. In. This. Is.

Daniel Parkinson [00:14:21] All.

Meg Abhau [00:14:21] He. Sees. On. The. Tv. Are. Boyfriend. Girlfriend. Relationships. Or. Any. Of. Developmental. Stuff. Is. All. Has. To. Do. With. What's. Considered. The. Cultural. Norm. And. Hopefully. You. Know. We. Can. See. More. Loving. Couples. On. Television. Like. Modern. Family. And. Things. Like. That. So. I. Realized. He. Should. See. What. Appeals. To. Him. So. We. Watched. The. New. Normal. Which. Was. So. Good. Like. One. Of.

Daniel Parkinson [00:14:47] The.

Meg Abhau [00:14:47] Most. Wholesome. Television. Shows. You'll.

Daniel Parkinson [00:14:48] Ever.

Meg Abhau [00:14:49] Watch. And. You. Did. You. Look. Like.

Daniel Parkinson [00:14:52] It. Was. Really. Good.

Meg Abhau [00:14:53] Yeah.

Daniel Parkinson [00:14:54] It. Was.

Meg Abhau [00:14:54] Such. A. Good. Show. It's.

Daniel Parkinson [00:14:56] Cancelled.

Meg Abhau [00:14:57] I. Know. I. Wish. Maybe. He'll. Bring. It. Back. I. Don't.

Daniel Parkinson [00:15:00] Know.

Meg Abhau [00:15:01] But. Yeah. So. We. Just. Started. Exposing. Him. More. To. What. Would. Make. Sense. To. Him. That's. The. Only. Thing. That. Really. Changed. With. Tv. Shows.

Daniel Parkinson [00:15:11] We. Love. To. Watch. Yeah. Roles. And. Everything. Nothing's. Any. Different.

Meg Abhau [00:15:15] Everything's. Still. The. Same.

Daniel Parkinson [00:15:18] So. Now. He. Has. To. Shave. A. Little. Bit.

Meg Abhau [00:15:19] More. Sometimes. He's. Growing. Up.

Daniel Parkinson [00:15:25] Maybe. While. You're. Saying. With. John. Maybe. The. Parents. And. John. Could. Pipe. In. About. You. Know. What. You. Wish. Existed. For. Mormon. Youth. In. Mormonism. Like. You. Know. What. Would. The. Perfect. Mormon. Experience. For. A. Gay. Youth. Be. In. I'll. Comment. On. That. Introduce. Sex. And. State. Yeah. I'll. Address. It. It's. Not. Gonna. Be. What. You're. Asking.

Meg Abhau [00:15:47] Me.

Daniel Parkinson [00:15:47] But. I'll. Address. It. It's. A. Real. Challenge. For. I.

Meg Abhau [00:15:52] Think.

Daniel Parkinson [00:15:52] For. Mormon. Youth. Obviously. To. Be. Gay. And. Mormon. And. Be. Active. And. To. Know. Kind. Of. Where. You. Fit. In. And. I. Think. It's. Even. A. Bigger. Challenge. For. Bishops. And. State. Presidents. Because. As. They. Set. Up. Rules. For. Like. A. Church. Dance. For. Example. I. Had. A. Conversation. With. The. State. President. About. His. Policies. At. Our. Local. Church. Dances. And. He. Said. We. Have. A. Policy. That. We. Don't. Allow. A. Lot. Of. Pda. And. So. They. Allow. Boys.

Meg Abhau [00:16:22] And.

Daniel Parkinson [00:16:22] Girls. To. Hold. Hands. They. Don't. Allow. Them. To. Kiss. When. They. Dance. They. Have. To. Have. Some. Kind. Of. Separation. Between. Them. There's. A. Couple. Rules. Like. That. But. They. Don't. Allow. Any. Same. Sex. Holding. Hands. Or. Same. Sex. Dancing. And. I. Understand. Why. You. Know. Because. It's. Because. If. You. Allow. That. At. That. Age. Then. You're. Sending. Mixed. Signals. About. What. The. Future. Doctrines. Or. I'm. Sorry. What. The. Doctrines. Are. You. Know. Because. Ultimately. You're. Saying. Okay. We. Can. Dance. Now. But. Then. At. Some.

Meg Abhau [00:16:49] Point.

Daniel Parkinson [00:16:49] It. Has. To. Stop. You. Know. And. So. It's. A. Big. Challenge. I. Think. In. The. Culture. For. People. At. Local. Levels. To. Try. To. Navigate. And. To. Manage. That. As. Far. As. What. I. Would. Be. Hopeful. For. I'm. Not. Really. Sure. What. I'd. Be. Hopeful. For. Because.

Questions and Hopes for Church Policy Change

Daniel Parkinson [00:17:06] The. Mormon. Faith. As. It. Is. Right. Now. I. Wouldn't. Expect. Or. Wouldn't. Ask. Them. To. Change. It. Would. Be. Surprising. To. Me. If. A. Stake. President. Suddenly. Allowed. Two. Teenage. Boys. To. Dance. Together. Because. That. Would. Seem. Inconsistent. With. What. The. Church. Teaches. Now. I. May. Agree. Or. Disagree. With. That. Doctrine. But. But. It. Is. What. The. Doctrine. Is. And. It's. Important. For. The. Church. To. Be. Able. To. At. Least. Teach. What. They. You. Know. For. It. To.

Daniel Parkinson [00:17:35] Trickle. Down. If. You. Will. You. Know. I'd. Love. To. See. More. Of. A. Support. Group. Out. There. For. Parents. And. For. Children. You. Know. Who. Are. Homosexual. Because. I. Think. There. Are. A. Lot. More. That. Obviously. Come. Out. And. Say. That. They. Are.

Daniel Parkinson [00:17:56] And. So. It's. Kind. Of. A. Chicken. Or. The. Egg. I. Mean. What. Do. You. Do. First. You. Create. A. Pamphlet. Specifically. For. Homosexual. Teens. In. The. Mormon. Faith. And. Then. Maybe. More. Will. Come. Out. Or. You. Just. Wait. For. Them. To. Come. Out. Before. You. Do. It. But. At. This. Point. People. Don't. Really. Come. Out.

Daniel Parkinson [00:18:15] In. Many. Christian. Faiths. Not. Just. Mormonism. And. Until. There's. Something. In. Place. You. Know. I. Mean. Kids. Just. Want. To. Be. Accepted. They. Want. To. Feel. Like. They're. Normal. You. Know. And. When. You're. Gay. You're. Different. You're. Normal. But. You're. Different. Normal. And. Until.

Daniel Parkinson [00:18:34] I. Think. Until. More. People. Have. The. Courage. That. John's. Shown. I. Don't. Know. If. We'll. See. A. Lot. Of. Change. There. But. We. Talked. About. Our. Bishop.

Meg Abhau [00:18:42] A.

Daniel Parkinson [00:18:42] Little. Bit. And. We.

Meg Abhau [00:18:43] Were.

Daniel Parkinson [00:18:43] Hoping. That. He. Would. Have. Something. For. Us. Or. Say. Hey. Go. To. This. There's. This. Support. Group. You. Know. And. There. Was. Nothing. And. That. Was. Really. Disappointing. We. Even. Brought. The. Family. Acceptance. Project. To. Him. And. It. Made. Him. A. Little. Bit. Nervous. Because. It. Was. We. Were. Giving. Him. Non. Church. Supported. Writing. If. You. Will. You. Know. And. Wanting. Him. To. Kind. Of. Look. It. Over. And. Maybe. Spread. It. But. I. Understand. From. His. Perspective. Too. He. Gets. Things. From. A. Certain. Command. But. It. Doesn't.

Meg Abhau [00:19:17] Come.

Daniel Parkinson [00:19:17] From. The. State. President. Ultimately. Up. To. The. First. Presidency. You. Know. He. Can't. Start. Preaching. His. Own. Opinion. On. It. And. So. It'd. Be. Great. To. See. From. The. Very. Very. Top. Down. To. Have. Something. In. There. Something. Out. There. To. Address. These. The. Kids. And. And. The. Adults. Because. Right. Now. It's. A. Bunch. Of. What. You. Can't. Do. And. There's. No. Place.

Meg Abhau [00:19:48] I. Guess. I.

Daniel Parkinson [00:19:48] Would.

Meg Abhau [00:19:48] Be.

Daniel Parkinson [00:19:48] A. Little.

Meg Abhau [00:19:49] More. Liberal. For. Me. I. Would. Love. To. See. Just. Regular. Coming. Of. Age. Situations. And. That's. Getting. To. Go. To. Dances. And. Holding. Hands. And. Kind. Of.

Daniel Parkinson [00:20:01] All.

Meg Abhau [00:20:01] The. Stepping. Stones. Toward. Marriage. If. You.

Daniel Parkinson [00:20:04] Just.

Meg Abhau [00:20:04] Don't. Have. Any. Of. That. When. You're. A. Teenager. Then. When. You. Get. To. Be. Twenty. Twenty. Five. Thirty. And. You. Start. To. Date. And. You're. Really. Kind. Of. At. The.

Daniel Parkinson [00:20:13] Level. Of.

Meg Abhau [00:20:13] A. Thirteen. Year. Old. And. So. For. Me. I. Just.

Daniel Parkinson [00:20:15] Always.

Meg Abhau [00:20:16] Remember. Going. To. Dances. And. Going. On. My. First. Date. When. I. Was. Sixteen. And. All. Of. The. Stumbling. Through. All. Of. That. Awkwardly. And. I. Just. Want. That.

Daniel Parkinson [00:20:27] For.

Meg Abhau [00:20:27] John. I. Want. Him. To. Just. Experience. Life. What. Feels. Authentic. And. Natural. To. Him. And.

Daniel Parkinson [00:20:35] So.

Meg Abhau [00:20:35] I. Would. Love. It. If. If. It. Was. Just. Accepted. I. Mean. In. My. Utopian. Society. It. Would. We. Wouldn't.

Daniel Parkinson [00:20:42] Have.

Meg Abhau [00:20:42] These. Conversations. We. Wouldn't. Have. To. Kind. Of. Figure. Out. What. Do. We.

Daniel Parkinson [00:20:46] Do.

Meg Abhau [00:20:46] With. All. Of. These. Gay. Boys. Or. Girls. Or. You. Know. That. It's. Just. Like. I. You. Know. I.

Daniel Parkinson [00:20:51] Want.

Meg Abhau [00:20:51] To. Dance. With. This. Boy. And. He's. So. Cute. And. Flirt. And. Just. Be. Just. Get. To. Have. What. I. Had. I. Don't. Think. That. Things. Should. Be. Withheld. And. So. That. Obviously. As. Jake. Said. Would. Have. To. Be. A. Major. Shift. In. Doctrine. But. Maybe. Someday. And. I. And. That's. Personally. Speaking. As. Megab. How. That's.

Daniel Parkinson [00:21:18] What. I.

Meg Abhau [00:21:18] Would. Like. To. See. And. To. Have. Same. Standards. In. The. Strength. Of. Youth. Pamphlet. You. Know. That. For. But. To. Include. Our. Gay.

Daniel Parkinson [00:21:27] Well. Nothing. That's. Why. So. Many. Lgbt. People. Leave. The. Mormon. Faith. Is. They're. Looking. For. That. They're. Looking. For. Guidance. They're. Looking. For. Direction. And. They're. Not. And. They're. Not. Finding. It. And. So. If. The. Lds. Church. Wants. To. Include. Gay. People. In. Their. Congregations. And. I. Mean. Let's. Create. Something. For. Them. Let's. Include. Them. You. Know. Instead. Of. Not. Because. Just. Like. Mank. Said. I. Mean. Yeah. When. They. Finally. If. They. Stay. Within. The. Mormonism. Once. They. Get. Out.

Meg Abhau [00:21:58] In.

Daniel Parkinson [00:21:58] The. Real. World. If. You. Will. Like. As.

Meg Abhau [00:22:01] An.

Daniel Parkinson [00:22:01] Adult. I. Mean. Yeah. They. Have. The. Dating. Experience. Of. A. Novice. You. Know. Twelve. Thirteen. Year. Old. But. If. There's. Something. In. There. Now.

Meg Abhau [00:22:10] I.

Daniel Parkinson [00:22:10] Understand. Also. Within. The. Faith. That. It's. Not. That. Mormonism. Isn't. Going.

Meg Abhau [00:22:14] To.

Daniel Parkinson [00:22:14] Suggest. That. You. Date. Even. Still. And. So. It's. A. Vicious. Circle. You. Know. There's. No. Really. Way. Out. Of. It. But. But. It'd. Be.

Meg Abhau [00:22:24] Great.

Daniel Parkinson [00:22:24] To. See. If. There. Was. Something. That. Members. That. Could. Hold. To. The. Doctrines. But. Could. Also. Be. Inclusive. And. I.

Meg Abhau [00:22:34] Don't. Know.

Daniel Parkinson [00:22:34] How. You. Would. Write. That. I. Don't. Know. How. You. Could. Create. That. But. Just. Something. That. Was. Specific. For. The. Mormon. Youth. Because. I. Know. Our. Bishop. Gave. John. Something. To. Read. And. He. Just. Kind. Of. Read. It. And. Was. Like. It. Wasn't. That. Helpful. Because. It. Wasn't. Really. Wasn't. Really. For. You.

Meg Abhau [00:22:50] What. Was. The. Most. Hopeful. Thing. You. Read. Carolyn. Pearson's. Book. Yeah. Tell.

Daniel Parkinson [00:22:58] That. Carolyn. Pearson. Wrote. A. Book. The. Hero's. Journey. And. It. Was. About. A. Twenty. Minute. Read. And. It. Was. Incredible. It. Was. A. Really. Really. Good. Book. It.

Meg Abhau [00:23:12] Filled. You.

Daniel Parkinson [00:23:12] With.

Meg Abhau [00:23:13] Purpose.

Daniel Parkinson [00:23:13] Yeah. It. What'd. You. Like. About. It. The. Entire. Purpose. Of. The. Book. Was. To. Bring. Back. It. Was. About. Going. On. This. Journey. And. In. The. End. You. Brought. Back. Love. And. Just. Everyone. Had. All. This. Different. Type. Of. Love. Whether. They. Decided. To. Be. Celibate. Or. Signed. To. Go. Have. A. Heterosexual. Or. Homosexual. Lifestyle. They. All. Had. What. Was. Called. The. Elixir. Which. Was. Love. Which. Was. Love.

Meg Abhau [00:23:52] Yeah. She. Sent. That. Book. To. Him. In. The. Mail. And. Sent. Him. A. Personal. Note.

Daniel Parkinson [00:23:57] That's.

Meg Abhau [00:23:58] Really. Nice. We're. Big. Fans.

Daniel Parkinson [00:24:03] So. This. Is. Daniel. Parkinson. You. Have. Probably. Already. Listened. To. The. Other. Parts. Of. The. Interview. They. Were. Done. In. A. Different. Format. And. So. We. Have. Here. Jake. Abhow. And. Meg. Abhow. This.

Meg Abhau [00:24:17] Is.

Daniel Parkinson [00:24:17] My. Cat. Who. Might. Make. An. Occasional. Appearance. Jake. And. Meg. Have. A. Fourteen. Year. Old. Son. Who. Is. Gay. I. Guess. He's. Just. Turned. Fifteen. Or. Turning. Fifteen. Almost. He's. Been. Out. Just. Over. A. Year. And. They. Have. Been. On. This. Journey. For. Just. Over. A. Year. And. So. If. For. Some. Reason. You're. Just. Coming. To. This. Interview. Now. They. Explained. All. That. In. Their. Other. Parts. And. So. What. We're. Really. Getting. To. Now. Is. What. Is. What. Has. Become. Of. Their. Journey. As. Far. As.

Meg Abhau [00:24:51] Their.

Daniel Parkinson [00:24:51] Relationship. With. Mormonism.

Meg Abhau [00:24:53] And.

Daniel Parkinson [00:24:53] With. The. Lds. Church. And. You. Know. Basically. I'm. Gonna. Say. It's. Taken. A. Hit. But. And. So. I'm. Gonna. Let. Them. Describe. Their. Journeys. They've. Talked. To. Me. About. It. Before. So. I'm. Gonna. Kind. Of. Ask. Them. Each. To. Describe. Sort. Of. The. Process. They. Went. Through. I. Think. I'd. Like. Meg. To. Start. Cause. Her. Sort. Of. Faith. Change. Happened. Earlier. In. The. Process. And. So. Why. Don't. You. Kind. Of. Just. Fill. Us. In. On. How. That. Happened. I. Mean. First. Of. All. You. Were. Totally. Mormon. Until. You. Found. Out. John. Was. Gay.

Faith Crisis Triggered by a Son's Coming Out

Meg Abhau [00:25:30] Of. Course. I. Never. Really. Had. A. Reason. To. Question. My. Faith. I. Never. Had. A. I. Didn't. I. Didn't. Think. That. We. Could. Do. Anything. Wrong. It. Seems. A. Bit. Naive. But. I. Felt. Like. It. Was.

Daniel Parkinson [00:25:44] Just.

Meg Abhau [00:25:44] Perfect. And. Right. Just. The. Way. It. Was. And. That. Everything. Could. Be. Answered. And. Explained. If. You. Just. Took. The. Time. To.

Daniel Parkinson [00:25:51] So.

Meg Abhau [00:25:51] When. John. Came. Out. And. I. Hear. This. Boy. Is. So. Good. And. So. Pure. And. He. Was. Just. It. Just. Kind. Of. Said. It. Made. Me. See. That. The. Church. Did. Not. Have. This. Right. That. We. Didn't. Have. It. Right. When. It. Came. To. The. Treatment. Of. Our. Lgbt. Brothers. And. Sisters. And. So. It. Just. Kind. Of. Started. Me. Down. A. Path. It. Was. A. Bit. The. Catalyst. Down. The. Path. Of. Like. How. Can. We. Be. Wrong. About. Anything. What. Else. Are. We. Wrong. About. And. I. Just. Started. Doing. Some. Research. And. Found.

Daniel Parkinson [00:26:22] A.

Meg Abhau [00:26:23] Lot. Of. Discrepancies. Between. What. I'd.

Daniel Parkinson [00:26:29] Been.

Meg Abhau [00:26:29] Taught. All.

Daniel Parkinson [00:26:29] My.

Meg Abhau [00:26:29] Life. And. What. I'd. Read. And. Researched. With. History. And. Again. These. Are. Things. All. On. Lds. Dot. Org. Comma. A.

Daniel Parkinson [00:26:35] Lot.

Meg Abhau [00:26:35] Of. People. Caution. Me. Not. To. Read. Anti. Mormon. Literature. First. Of. All. I. Don't.

Daniel Parkinson [00:26:39] Even.

Meg Abhau [00:26:39] Know. What. That. Is. I. Don't.

Daniel Parkinson [00:26:40] Know.

Meg Abhau [00:26:40] How. To. Find. It. I've. Never. Read. Anti. Mormon. Literature. That. I. Can. That. I. Can. Think. Of. I. Mean. Maybe.

Daniel Parkinson [00:26:47] Some.

Meg Abhau [00:26:47] Maybe. In. Some. Somewhere. Along. The. Lines. Of. My. Life. I've.

Daniel Parkinson [00:26:51] Read.

Meg Abhau [00:26:51] Something. Negative. Toward.

Daniel Parkinson [00:26:52] The.

Meg Abhau [00:26:52] Mormon. Church.

Daniel Parkinson [00:26:53] But.

Meg Abhau [00:26:53] I. Certainly. Wasn't. Going. Digging. Just. To. Get. Out. It. Was. Information. That. I. That. I. That. I. Came. Across. And. I. Was. And. That. Kind.

Daniel Parkinson [00:27:03] Of.

Meg Abhau [00:27:04] It. Was. Just. Something. That. I'd. Read. And. It. Was. Like. Well. This. Isn't. Right. That's.

Daniel Parkinson [00:27:08] Not.

Meg Abhau [00:27:08] What. My. Church. Teaches. Me. So. I. Went. To.

Daniel Parkinson [00:27:10] My.

Meg Abhau [00:27:10] Church. To. Investigate. And. It. Turns. Out. That. Actually. Was. True. What. I. Had. Read. And. So. It. Just. Kind. Of. Started. Down. There. It. Was. Like. A. Thread. You. Just. Keep. Pulling. And. Everything. Just. Sort. Of. Unravels. Does. That. Make. Sense.

Daniel Parkinson [00:27:24] Yeah. And. So. I. Mean. I. Don't. The. Point. Of. This. Isn't. To. Get. Into. The. Exact. Details. But. The.

Meg Abhau [00:27:30] Point.

Daniel Parkinson [00:27:31] Is. That. To. Sum. It. Up. This. Kind. Of. Cracked. Open. A. Box. For. You. Then. So. It. Wasn't. Would. It. Have. Taken. You. Out. Of. The. Church. I. Mean. Would. You. Have. Prior. In. The. Past. You've. Said. That. You. Would. You. Know. You. Weren't. Gonna. Stay. In. The. Church. It. Was. Gonna. Be. Damaging. To. John. Even. If. You. Believed.

Meg Abhau [00:27:51] In.

Daniel Parkinson [00:27:51] It. But. I. Still. Got.

Meg Abhau [00:27:55] The.

Daniel Parkinson [00:27:55] Impression. That. That's. What. You. Wanted. To. Do. Was. Stay. In. The. Church.

Meg Abhau [00:27:58] Yes.

Daniel Parkinson [00:27:58] And. What. You're. Telling. Me. Is. That. You. Never. Would. Have. Or. Maybe. You. Later. Would. Have. For. Some. Other. Reason. Opened. This. Box. But. Really. You. Weren't. This. Is. This. Has. Got. You. To. A. Point. Where. You. Started. To. Investigate. Other. Things.

Meg Abhau [00:28:13] Yeah. I. Would. When. John. First. Came.

Daniel Parkinson [00:28:16] Out.

Meg Abhau [00:28:16] It. Wasn't. Like. It. Wasn't. As. If. I. Was. Just. Throwing. My. Hands. Up. In. The.

Daniel Parkinson [00:28:20] Air.

Meg Abhau [00:28:20] And. Saying. Okay. We're. Walking. Out. I. Did. Say. We. Attending. I. Don't. Feel. Like. Is. Safe. It's.

Daniel Parkinson [00:28:27] A.

Meg Abhau [00:28:27] Safe. Place. For. Him. There's. Really. Nothing. For. Him. And. We. We're. Not. Going. To. Leave.

Daniel Parkinson [00:28:31] Him.

Meg Abhau [00:28:31] Home. By. Himself. While. We.

Daniel Parkinson [00:28:32] Go.

Meg Abhau [00:28:32] To. Church. So. I. Was. Initially. Telling. Jake. Well. We. Just. Can't. Go. And. It's. Not. Safe. And. He. Agreed. And. So. I. Was. Like. Well. We. Can. I. Mean. It's. Only.

Daniel Parkinson [00:28:41] A.

Meg Abhau [00:28:42] Few. More. Years. Before. He's.

Daniel Parkinson [00:28:43] Out.

Meg Abhau [00:28:43] Of. The. House. And. Then.

Daniel Parkinson [00:28:44] We'll.

Meg Abhau [00:28:44] Go. You. Know. Not. To. Ostracize. Him. We'll. Go. We'll. Go. Back. Kind. Of. Take. A. Break.

Daniel Parkinson [00:28:50] Can.

Meg Abhau [00:28:50] I.

Daniel Parkinson [00:28:51] Stop. You. For.

Meg Abhau [00:28:51] A. Second.

Daniel Parkinson [00:28:51] And. Then. Just. Tell. Me. What. Brought. You. To. The. Conclusion. That. It's. Not. A. Safe. Place. For. Your. Son.

Researching LGBT Issues and Youth Suicide Risk

Meg Abhau [00:28:57] I. Started. Doing. A. Lot. Of. Research. Just. To. Help. John. Initially. I. Just. Wanted. To. Know. As. Much. As. I. Could. About. The. Lgbt. Community. Unfortunately. I. Wasn't. As. Well. Versed. As. I. Am. Now. I. Didn't. Understand. A. Lot. Of. Things. So. I. Instantly. Started. Doing. Tons. Of. Research. And.

Daniel Parkinson [00:29:12] What.

Meg Abhau [00:29:12] I. Had. Come. Across. Was. The. Extremely. High. Rate. Suicide. Rate. In. Teenagers. In. Our. Church. High. Rates.

Daniel Parkinson [00:29:19] Of.

Meg Abhau [00:29:19] Homelessness. Self. Loathing. Shame. Drug. Abuse. A.

Daniel Parkinson [00:29:24] Lot.

Meg Abhau [00:29:24] Of. Things. That. Kind. Of. I. Feel. Like. Are. Unintentionally. By. The. Church. Propelling. Them. Down. This. Path. Because. It's. Not. Like. We're. Saying. Oh. You. Might. Do. Something. Bad. It's. That. You. Are. Bad.

Daniel Parkinson [00:29:37] Well. Can. You. Be. Specific. What. Is. It. About. The. Church. That. Makes. Them. Suicidal. Or. Abuse. Drugs. I. Mean. The. Church. Isn't. Telling. Them. To. Use. Drugs.

Meg Abhau [00:29:45] From. What. I've. Heard. Because. Obviously. I. Don't.

Daniel Parkinson [00:29:47] Have.

Meg Abhau [00:29:47] Personal. Experience. With. This. But. From. What. I've. Heard. And. From. What. I've. Read. And. A. Lot. Of. Accounts. From. My. Friends. They. Say. That. It. Feels. Hopeless. There's. No. Hope. And. You. Take. Hope. Away. From. Someone. Hope. Of. Love. Of. Affection. Of. Companionship. It's. Pretty. Abysmal. And. A.

Daniel Parkinson [00:30:09] Lot. Of.

Meg Abhau [00:30:09] People. Try. To. Compare. It. To. You. Know. It's. Fine. Just. Be. Celibate. It's. What. God. Requests. Of. You. So. Just. Do. That. And. They. Try. To. Compare. It. To. Single. Women. You. Know. Or. Single. Men. If. You're. Single. They're. Celibate. And. They. Can. Manage. To. Live. The. Gospel. But. The. Difference. Is. And. The. Difference. With. The. Gay. Community. Is. That. You're. Never. Going. To. Have. Hope. To. Be. With. Somebody. That. You. Love. You're. Never. Going. To. Have. Love. And. To. Take. Hope. Away. And. Love. Away. Pretty. Damaging. And. Then. On. Top. Of. That. You're. A. Sin. Against. God. You're. Taking. That. Would. Be. Taking. You. Away. From. Your. Family. Eternally. There's. Just. Like. Extra. Thing. Just. Some. Extras. Added. On. To. That. I. Think. That. The. Church. Believes. It's. Giving. A. Loving. Message. That. It's. Just. Doing. What. God. Is. Asking. According. To. The. Mormon. Doctrine. Or. Dichotomy. But. What. It's. Doing. To. Real.

Daniel Parkinson [00:31:09] He.

Meg Abhau [00:31:09] Human. Beings. Doesn't. Feel. Loving. It. Doesn't. Feel. Hopeful. It's. Devastating. And. These. Are. Our. People. These. Are. Souls. And. We. Should. Care. For. All. People. All. Human. Did. I. Explain. That.

Daniel Parkinson [00:31:29] Something. That. I. Heard. Somebody. Say. Once. Which. Made. A. Lot. Of. Sense. To. Me. Was. That. Single. Women. Who. Are. Are. Trying. To. Have. A. Family. And. Try. To. Find. The. Companion. And. Basically. Follow. That. Path. Towards. That. Eternal. Salvation. Which. Requires. A. Companion. Requires. Children. And. Requires. All. That. They're. Going. To. Go.

Meg Abhau [00:31:48] To.

Daniel Parkinson [00:31:48] Bed. Every. Night. Praying. For. That. Asking.

Meg Abhau [00:31:50] Their.

Daniel Parkinson [00:31:50] Heavenly. Father. For. That. Because. That's. What. They. Want. Where. The. Gay. Individual. Goes. To. Bed. Every. Single. Night. Praying. That. He. Doesn't. Fall. In. Love. He. Doesn't. Find. That. Person. Because. That's. Because. Then. What. Do. You. Do. You. Know. It's. One. Thing. Saying. Okay. Be. Celibate. But. What. Happens. If. You. Fall. In. Love. You. Know. And. You're. You're. Denied. That. And. It's. Such. A. Different. I'm. Not. Saying. One's. Better. Or. More. Difficult. Than. The. Other. But. They're. So. Different. To. Compare. The. Two. Is. Is. Kind. Of. Unfair.

Meg Abhau [00:32:20] Also. They're. Praying. To. Change. To. Change. Part. Of. Who. They're. I. Can't. Imagine. Going. To. Sleep. At. Night. And. You. Know. Saying. Heavenly. Father. Just. Change. Me. To. Love. Women. I'll. Do. Whatever. I. Can. I'll. Fast. Every. Sunday. I'll. Give. Twenty. Percent. Tithing. I'll. Go. On. A. Mission. I'll. Do. Everything. Perfectly. So.

Daniel Parkinson [00:32:43] For.

Meg Abhau [00:32:43] Me. When. I. Started. Reading. All. Of. These. Things. I. Recognized. That. These. Gay. Boys. These. Teenage. Boys. Who. Start. To. Recognize. Their. Sexuality. Through. Puberty. Or. Whenever. This. Happens. That. They. Start. Just. Like. Doubling. Down. In. The. Church. And. Just. Being. Extra. Good. Hoping. That. They'll. Change. And. When. It. Doesn't. Happen. That. Can. Be. Devastating. I. Can. Imagine. You. Know. And. Just. Asking. To. Change. And. Then. There's. Just. So. Many. Added. Complications. So. Once. You. Recognize. That. You're. Never. Gonna. Change. I'm. Never. Gonna. Change. My. Sexuality. I. Can't. Imagine. Anybody. Ever. Changing. Their. Sexuality.

Daniel Parkinson [00:33:23] Do. You. Think. There's. Other. Messages. That. Are. Getting. At. Church. That. Are. Damaging. Too. I. Mean. Do. You. Think. The. Experience. Of. Sitting. As. A. Teen. In. Priesthood. When. They. Talk. About. Morality. And. Chastity. And. The. Way. People. Talk. About. Gay. People. In. Church. I. Mean. What. About. That. Could. You. Comment. To. That. I'll. Speak. On. That. I. Had. A. Conversation. Earlier. On. With. My. Stake. President. He. Gave. Me. This. Example. And.

Meg Abhau [00:33:47] I.

Daniel Parkinson [00:33:47] Thought. This. Was. Pretty. Telling. He. Said. That. We. Were. Talking. About. Church. Dances. Because. John. Was. Almost. You. Know. He. Was. Fourteen. Or. Almost. Fourteen. About. To. Be. Allowed. To. Go. To. Church. Dances. And. We. Kind. Of. Decided. At. This. Point. That. We. Weren't. Going. To. Have. Him. Go. Back. To. Church. Anyway. But. We. Were. Having. This. Conversation. Hypothetical. And. He. Said. That. The. Stake. Policy. Was. That. They. Don't. They. Don't. Allow. Like.

Meg Abhau [00:34:08] You. Know.

Daniel Parkinson [00:34:08] Pda. Public. Display. Of. Affection. At. Church. Dances. They. Allow. They. Allow. Slow. Dancing. You. Know. They. Just.

Meg Abhau [00:34:13] Had.

Daniel Parkinson [00:34:14] To. Have. Some. Kind. Of. Space. Between. The. Two. People. Which. I. Felt. Was. Appropriate. They. Didn't. Allow. Kissing. But. They. Did. Allow. Like. A. Boy. Or. A. Girl.

Meg Abhau [00:34:22] To.

Daniel Parkinson [00:34:22] Hold. Hands. That. Was. Kind. Of. Where. They. Drew. The. Line. Or. Whatever. And. He. Said. But. We. Do. Not. Allow. Same. Sex. Dancing. We.

Meg Abhau [00:34:30] Do.

Daniel Parkinson [00:34:30] Not. Allow. Same. Sex. Holding. Hands. So. It. Was. Different. And. I. Understand. That. As. A. Stake. President. Making. That. Decision. And. Implementing. It. Because. It's. Consistent. With. The. Message. Of. The. Church.

Meg Abhau [00:34:42] I.

Daniel Parkinson [00:34:42] Mean. If. You. Allowed. If. You. Allowed. Two. Boys. To. Dance. At. A. Stake. Youth. Dance. That. Would. Send. A. Weird. Message. You. Know. Or. Inconsistent. From. The. Brethren. What. The. Brethren. Are. Teaching. And. So. I. Countered. You. Know. I'm. Sorry. So. I. Asked. Him. I. Said. Well. Kind. Of. Leading. Him.

Meg Abhau [00:35:01] A.

Daniel Parkinson [00:35:01] Little. Bit. I. Said. Well. Why. Why. Do. We. Do. That. You. Know. And. He. Said. Well. This. Is. Like. This.

Meg Abhau [00:35:05] Is.

Daniel Parkinson [00:35:05] A. Safe. Place. To. Start.

Meg Abhau [00:35:06] To.

Daniel Parkinson [00:35:06] Nurture. Those. Relationships. To. Have. Those. Healthy. Appropriate. Relationships. At. Age. Fourteen. To. Learn. How. To. Be. Socially. Interact. With. The. Opposite. Sex. Which. Ultimately. Will. Lead. Towards. Marriage. Of. Course. I. Said. And. Of. Course. I. Said. And. Leading. On. To. Exaltation. Children. Forever. And. Everything. Else. I. Took. It. From.

Meg Abhau [00:35:30] An.

Daniel Parkinson [00:35:30] Eternal. Level. And. He. Said. Well. Yes. Of. Course. I. Said. So. It. Sounds. To. Me. That. Since. We. Teach. Our. Gay. And. Our. Gay. Members. To. Be. Celibate. Which. Is. Basically. We're. Really. Teaching. Them. To. Be. Alone. Their. Own. Life. Because. It's. Not. About. Sex. It's. Really. About. Being. Alone. Because. We. Don't. Allow. Two. Gay. Men. To. Live. Together.

Meg Abhau [00:35:49] And.

Daniel Parkinson [00:35:49] Just.

Meg Abhau [00:35:49] Not.

Daniel Parkinson [00:35:49] Be. Intimate. That's. Still.

Meg Abhau [00:35:51] Not.

Daniel Parkinson [00:35:51] An. Accepted. Choice. Within. Church. And. So. I. Said. I. Said. Well. Why. Aren't. We. Just. Having. Our. Fourteen. Year.

Meg Abhau [00:35:58] Old.

Daniel Parkinson [00:35:58] Gay. Kids. Stand. In. A. Corner. By. Themselves. And. Just. Having. Them. Be. There. And. They. Can. Watch. But. Not. Allowing. Them. To. Participate. Because. That's. Really. The. Message. That. We're. Telling. Them. So. Right. There. From. The. Very. Very. Early. Stages. We're. Teaching. Our. Gay. Children. To. Just. Be. Straight. You. Know. You. Can. Go. To. These. Dances. But. You. Can. Only. Dance. With. A. Girl. Or.

Meg Abhau [00:36:20] Be.

Daniel Parkinson [00:36:20] Sidelined. Or. Be. Sidelined. Right. So. Your. Choices. Are. Either. Yeah. So. Your. Choices. Are. Either. To. Be. Straight. Or. Or. To. Not. To. Not. Yeah. Just. To. Take. Yourself.

Meg Abhau [00:36:31] Out. Of.

Daniel Parkinson [00:36:32] It. And. That. There's. Just. Nothing. For. Them. Right. There's. Not. A. Place. For. Them.

Meg Abhau [00:36:36] In.

Daniel Parkinson [00:36:36] The. Church. Is.

Meg Abhau [00:36:36] Basically. What. You're.

Daniel Parkinson [00:36:37] Saying. And. That. Moves. On. To. Adulthood.

Meg Abhau [00:36:39] That's. How. It. Felt. That. Really. Ostracized. Like.

Daniel Parkinson [00:36:42] Those. Are. Your. Two. Choices.

Meg Abhau [00:36:43] You. Ostracize. These. Beautiful. Lovely. People. I. Mean. John. Was. Such. A. So. Involved. In. The. Church. And. Active. In. His.

Daniel Parkinson [00:36:52] Quorums.

Meg Abhau [00:36:53] In.

Daniel Parkinson [00:36:53] His.

Meg Abhau [00:36:53] Quorum. Forums. And. You. Know. Did. Pass. The. Sacrament. Every. Sunday. You. Know. With. This. Cute. Little. Bow. Tie. He. Was. This. And. People. In. The. Ward. Would. Come. Up. To. Us.

Daniel Parkinson [00:37:04] All.

Meg Abhau [00:37:04] The. Time. And. Just. Say. He's. Just. Such. A. Sweet. Kid. He's. The. Perfect. Kid. You. Know. Like. We. Pray. That. Our. Child. Is. Like. John. We. Heard. That. A. Lot.

Daniel Parkinson [00:37:15] Just.

Meg Abhau [00:37:15] Because. He's. Just. You. Know. He. Was. Really. Kind. And. Polite. And. He's. Not. He's. Not. Extremely. Rambunctious. And. He. Was. A. Hot. Commodity. With. Babysitting. As. Well. So. I. Think. It. Did. Probably. Come. As.

Daniel Parkinson [00:37:29] A.

Meg Abhau [00:37:29] Shock. To. People. That. When.

Daniel Parkinson [00:37:31] He.

Meg Abhau [00:37:31] Came. Out. As. Gay. But. Maybe. Not. To. Others.

Daniel Parkinson [00:37:36] Yeah.

Meg Abhau [00:37:36] But. So. Here. Here. We. Have. John's. Not. You. Know. The. Only. Person. Like. That. We. Have. Here. We. Have. A. Lot. Of. Kids. That. Love. Their. Culture. And. Love. Their. Their. People. Their. Religion. And. Love. Their. Church. And. We're. Letting. I. Think. I. Feel. Like. We're. Letting. Them. Down. We. Felt. Let. Down. I'm. Not. Going. To. Speak. For. All. Of. The. Church. And.

Daniel Parkinson [00:37:59] Of.

Meg Abhau [00:37:59] Course. This. Might. Make. Some. People. Upset. To. Say. Negative. Things. About. The. Church. But. For. Us. Living. It. Walking. It. Going. Through. It. Day. By. Day. It. Was. Lonely. It. Was. Hopeless. So. So. It's. Not. Going. To. Be.

Daniel Parkinson [00:38:17] A.

Meg Abhau [00:38:17] Positive. Experience. It. Wasn't. It's. It. Wasn't.

Daniel Parkinson [00:38:20] A.

Meg Abhau [00:38:20] Positive. Experience.

Daniel Parkinson [00:38:22] And. I. Just. Wonder. I. Mean. I. Know. In. My. Generation. There. Was. Just. A. Really. Open. Hostility. Towards. Gay. People. At. Church. And. So. It's. Not. Just. This. Lack. Of. A. Dream. But. It's. Also. I. Don't. Know. If. You. Experience. This. But. There's. A. Lot. Of. Just. Really. You. Know. This. Is.

Meg Abhau [00:38:42] A.

Daniel Parkinson [00:38:42] Sin. Next. To. Murder. You. Know.

Meg Abhau [00:38:44] This.

Daniel Parkinson [00:38:45] Is. The. Filth. Of. The. Scum. Of. The. Earth. And. This. Is. What. Fourteen. Year. Olds. Are. Hearing. I. Don't. Know. If. It's. As. Bad. As. It. Used. To. Be. But. I. Do. Know. That. There. Even. When. Your. Son. Came. Out. All. Of. A. Sudden. He. Was. Seen. As. This. Vile. Evil. Thing. By. Certain. People. And. Those. Messages. Come. I. Mean. Can. You. Speak. To. That. If. There's. This. Hostility. Both. From. Some. Leaders. And. Some.

Daniel Parkinson [00:39:07] Some. Of. These. Older. Messages. That. Used. To. Be. In. The. Church. About. How. Horrible. Homosexuals. Are. And. Can. You. I'll. Speak. That. A. Little. Bit. And. We. May. Differ. On. This. I'm. Not. Sure. But. With. With. John. And. When. John. Came. Out. He. Was. Literally. In. Our. We've. Been. We've. Been. In. This. World. For. A. Year. And. A. Half. Or. So. And. Met. A. Lot. Of. People. Heard. I. Mean. Thousands. Of. Stories. People's. Stories. And. Everybody's. Unique. And. What. John. The. Unique. Thing. About. John. Is. That. He. Was. Never.

How Their Son Avoided Shame and Self-Doubt

Daniel Parkinson [00:39:33] He. Never. Felt. That. Shame. He. Never. Felt. That. Those. Thoughts. Of. Suicide. Never. Felt. That. He. Was. Being. Treated. Differently. Because. He. Was. Different. And. He. Didn't. He. Was. Very. Confident. About. Who. He. Was. And. He. Knew. He. Was. And. He. Knew. He. Was. Gay. And. He. Had. No. Problem. With. It. Which. Is. Very. Very. Unique. To. The. Point. Where. He. Came. Out. Right.

Meg Abhau [00:39:52] Yeah. I. Don't. Know. How. He. Avoided. Those. Messages. That. Are. In. Church. That. Everybody. Else. Seems. To. Hear. I. Don't. Know.

Daniel Parkinson [00:39:58] If.

Meg Abhau [00:39:59] We. Count. Encountered. That.

Daniel Parkinson [00:39:59] At.

Meg Abhau [00:40:00] Home. Just. By. Having. A. Constant. Open. Dialogue. And. Just. Being. Loving. Accepting. To. Everyone. We. Always. Tried. To. Be. That. Way. But. Obviously. We. Weren't. I. Didn't. Know. As. Much. As. I. Know.

Daniel Parkinson [00:40:12] Well. Yeah. And. As. Soon. As.

Meg Abhau [00:40:12] He.

Daniel Parkinson [00:40:13] Came. As. Soon. As. He. Realized. That. He. Was. Gay. He. Was. Out. He.

Meg Abhau [00:40:15] Came.

Daniel Parkinson [00:40:16] And. Told. Us. And. I. Think. A. Lot. Of. That. So. He. May. Have. Heard. Some. Of. Those. Messages. And. Not. Thought. They. Applied. To. Him. At. That. Time. Because. He. Just. Didn't. Register. You. Know. At. Ten. Eleven. Twelve. And. So. As. Soon. As. He.

Meg Abhau [00:40:27] Told.

Daniel Parkinson [00:40:27] Us. Then. We. Were. Able. To. Not. Shield. Him. From. That. But. At. Least. Be. Aware.

Meg Abhau [00:40:31] Of.

Daniel Parkinson [00:40:31] That. And. Have. He. Would.

Meg Abhau [00:40:33] Have.

Daniel Parkinson [00:40:33] Stayed. In. For. A. Couple. Years. A. Few. Years. Do.

Meg Abhau [00:40:36] You.

Daniel Parkinson [00:40:36] Think. Or. Especially. People. Knowing. About. Him. Do. You.

Meg Abhau [00:40:39] Think.

Daniel Parkinson [00:40:39] You. Would. Have. Started. Getting. Some. Shameful. Maybe. But. We. Never. Really. Allowed. That.

Meg Abhau [00:40:46] Yeah. My. Mother's. Intuition. Kicked. In. Instantly. And. I. Went. To. Church. We. Left. John. At. Home. Because. It. Was. The. Couple. Days. After. He'd. Come. Out. And. He. Was. Super. Super. Tired. And. Just. Like. We.

Daniel Parkinson [00:40:59] Were.

Meg Abhau [00:40:59] All. Emotionally. Drained. And. John. Said. Can. I. Just. Stay. Home. And. I. Was.

Daniel Parkinson [00:41:04] Like.

Meg Abhau [00:41:04] Sure. Of. Course. You. Know. You're. Not. Feeling. Well. So. We. Went. To. Church. Without. Him. And. I. Was. Just. It. Was. Like. Night. And. Day. The. Week. Before. Walking. Into. That. Building. Was. Comforting. It. Was. Peaceful. It. Was. Everything. That. You. See. The. Warm. Fuzzies. You. Feel. And. I. Felt. Very. Comforted. By. The. Organ. Music. Playing. And. Everything. That. You. Know. As. A. Mormon. Girl. You. Grow. Up. And. You. Kind. Of. Become. Accustomed. To. I. Walked. Through. Those. Doors. And. I. Sat. In. That. Church. And. It. Was. A. Great. Stranger. To. Me. I. Felt. All.

Daniel Parkinson [00:41:35] Of.

Meg Abhau [00:41:36] A. Sudden. Very. Nervous. You. Know. What. Are. People. Going. To. Think. How. Are. They. Going. To. Treat. Us.

Daniel Parkinson [00:41:40] How.

Meg Abhau [00:41:40] Are. They. Going. To. Treat. My. Child. Is. John. Going. To.

Daniel Parkinson [00:41:42] Start.

Meg Abhau [00:41:42] Getting. More. Messages. Now. Because. They're. Trying. To. Send. Save. Him. And. Help. Him. You. Know. By. Saying. It's. Wrong. It's. Wrong. It's. Wrong. It's. A. Sin. Against. God. You. Can't. Change. That. It's. Never. Going. To. Change. So. Would. They. Start. Doubling. Down. On. Taking. His. Hope. Away. And. I. Couldn't. Combat. That. And. What. Would. That. Do. To. Him.

Daniel Parkinson [00:42:02] What.

Meg Abhau [00:42:02] Would. That. Do. To. His. Spirit. And. His. Soul. And. Breaking. It. And. I. Just. Turned. To. Jake. And. I. Said. We're.

Daniel Parkinson [00:42:06] Not.

Meg Abhau [00:42:06] Going. To. Be. Able. To. Go. To. Church. And. He. Said. I. Agree. We. Were. Always. On. The. Same. Page. About. That.

Daniel Parkinson [00:42:13] Yeah.

Meg Abhau [00:42:13] And. It. Was. Sad. It.

Daniel Parkinson [00:42:14] Was.

Meg Abhau [00:42:15] Devastating. I. Sat. There. Crying. Through. All. Of. Sacrament. Meeting. Because. I. Wanted. My. Church. To. Be. Safe. I. Want. To. Feel. Safe. There. I. Want. It. To. Be. A. Safe. And. Happy. And. Emotionally. To. Lift.

Daniel Parkinson [00:42:28] Up.

Meg Abhau [00:42:28] My. Son's. Emotional. Well. Being. And. I. Knew. It. Would. Just. It. Just. Couldn't. Do. That. Not. Not. At. Its. Current. State.

Daniel Parkinson [00:42:35] But. Even. At. That. State. You. Kind. Of. Thought. You. Would. Go. Back. But.

Meg Abhau [00:42:39] You.

Daniel Parkinson [00:42:39] Just. That. You. Could. See. That. There. Wasn't. A. Place. For. John. So. Let's. Go. To. Jake. And. You. Had. A. You. Know. Your. Journey. Was. A. Little. Bit. Different. Because. You. Didn't. Arrive. Quite.

Meg Abhau [00:42:52] As.

Daniel Parkinson [00:42:52] Quickly. Or. Maybe. Didn't. But. It. Sounds. Like. The. Process. Might. Have. Been. A. Little. Bit. The. Same. This. Cracked. Open. A. Lid. Somehow. Or. A. Box. A. Little. Bit. I'll. Even. Say. Today. That. The. Way. That. I. Don't. Love. How. The. Church. Handles. The. You. Know. The. Issue.

Meg Abhau [00:43:09] You.

Daniel Parkinson [00:43:09] Know. The. Gay. Issue. You. Know. Obviously. But. I. Understand. The. Lds. Church. Having. Their. Doctrines. That. They're. Putting. Out. And. Having. To. Hold. To. Them. You. Know. Until. There. Is. Something. That. Obviously. Would. Change. So. The. Doctrines. Before. John. Came. Out. They. Made. Sense. To. You. And. Even. So. Even. Though. It. Even. Though. It.

Meg Abhau [00:43:32] Didn't. Say.

Daniel Parkinson [00:43:32] Sound. Like. A. Very. Hopeful. Plan. For. John. It. Still. Wasn't. This. It. Wasn't. Breaking. Your. Testimony. No. Not. At. All. Questions. Or. Before. Like. Before. John. Came. Out. I. Mean. I. Was. I. Was. I. Wasn't. Wouldn't. I. Wasn't. Really. Anti. Gay. Marriage. But. I. Wasn't. Pro. Yeah. Or. I'm. Sorry. I. Was. I. Was.

Meg Abhau [00:43:54] Pro.

Daniel Parkinson [00:43:55] Traditional. Marriage. But. Not. Really. Anti. Gay. Marriage. I. Understand. People. Say. That. To. Me. Now. And. I'm. Like. That's. Know. You. You. Can't. Really. That. That's. You. Know. That. Negates. Itself. But. That's. How. I. Define. Myself. And. I. Realized. That. You. Gay. People. Actually. Pro. Traditional. Marriage. As. Well. As. Gay.

Meg Abhau [00:44:10] Marriage.

Daniel Parkinson [00:44:10] So. Fair. Enough.

Meg Abhau [00:44:11] Yes.

Daniel Parkinson [00:44:12] So. We. Don't. See. It. As. Right. And. I. And. I. And. I. And. I. For. Me. I. Usually. I. Like. The. Term. Marriage. Equality. You. Know. Because. I. Think. It's. It's. All. Encompassing. But. And. I. Really. I. Really. Don't. Use. The. Term. Gay. Marriage. But. I. Think. People. Oh. Yeah. Under. People. But. I. Think. People. Understand. What. That. Means. Yeah. I'm. Not. Offended. By. The. Term. But. But. I. Do. But. I. Do. Want. Yeah. I. Do. Want. To. I. Do. Want. To. Mention. That. Because. I. Have. There's. A. Lot. Of. People. From. My. Kind. Of. For. My. Church. Past. Who. Are. Bothered. By. The. Term. Marriage. Equality. Because. To. Them. It. Sounds. It. Makes. Them. Sound. You. Know. Hateful. Or. Whatever. You. Know. And. The. Truth. Hurts.

Meg Abhau [00:44:50] The. Truth.

Daniel Parkinson [00:44:50] Does.

Meg Abhau [00:44:51] Hurt. It's. You. Really. Aren't. Equal. So. Let's. Just. Use. The. Right. Term. You.

Daniel Parkinson [00:44:55] Know. And. They're.

Meg Abhau [00:44:56] Trying.

Daniel Parkinson [00:44:56] To.

Meg Abhau [00:44:56] It's. Hard. To.

Daniel Parkinson [00:44:57] I. Mean. I. Mean. They're. Trying. To. Understand. That. Because. I. Can. Remember. Being. There. And. I. Just. Hadn't. Put. Enough. Thought. Into. It. You. Know. And. I. Had. A. Conversation. With. You. Early. On. Like. Really. Early. On. Like. Maybe. Well. Not. Maybe. A. Month. Into. It. Well. I. Still. I. Still. Held. To. That. Like. You. And. I. Talked. It's. Hard. To.

Meg Abhau [00:45:17] Be.

Daniel Parkinson [00:45:17] A. Member. Who. Is. Basically. All. About. Fairness. And. Equality. And. Have. Your. Church. Tell. You. That. You. Can't. Support. This. Even. If. It. Makes. Total. Sense. To. You. So. It's.

Meg Abhau [00:45:30] A.

Daniel Parkinson [00:45:30] Hard. Position. I. Feel. For. People. Who. Are. In. That. Who. Want. Who. Want. To. Be. Fair. And. Want. To. Be. Equal. And. Yet. Somehow. Their. Ideology. Convinces. Them. That. Somehow. This. Unequal. Thing. Actually. Is. Okay. Well. And. This. Is. What. Really. Did. It. For. Me. And. Has. Continued. To. Kind. Of. Push. Is.

Meg Abhau [00:45:53] Appearance. Number.

Daniel Parkinson [00:45:54] One. Say. That. So. This. Is. What. Did. It. For. Me. And. Continues. To. Push. Me. In. The. Direction. That. I'm. Going. Is. I. Felt. Right. There. On. That. One. Political. Issue. Which. It. Is. Is. That. The. Church. Was. Telling. Me. To. Believe. Something. Or. Do. Something. Even. Though. They. Don't. Stand. From. The. Pulpit. And. Say. Be.

Church Stance on Marriage and Political Involvement

Daniel Parkinson [00:46:13] Well. They. Do. On. That. Actually. They. Say. You. Know. You. Know. Get. Politically. Involved. In. Traditional. Marriage. And. Being. Pro. Traditional. Marriage. But. They. Haven't. Really. Done. That. With. Other. Issues. For. Whatever. Reason. They. Pick. This. One. Politically. But. The. Church. Is. Telling. You. To. Go. That. Route. And. You. Just. Kind. Of. Say.

Daniel Parkinson [00:46:30] Historically. They. Were. They. Came. Out. Against. Era. So. There's. It's. Not. The. Very. First. Time. Ever. In. My. Lifetime. I. Guess. I. Should. Say. In. My. Lifetime. Remembering. Remembering. Feeling. Like. I. Need. To. Think. This. Way. Because. The. Church. Is. Telling. Me. To. Think. This. Way. Prop. Eight. Is. Obviously. The. Most. Well. Known. Thing. And. We. Weren't. In. California. But. Everybody. Knew. About. That.

Daniel Parkinson [00:46:55] But. What. Made. Me. Realize. Is. Okay. The. Church. Is. Telling. Me. To. Think. This. Way. And. Then. After. I. Started. After. John. Came. Out. And. I. Started. To. Think. For. Myself. A. Little. Bit. On. On. That. Issue. Yeah. On. That. Issue. What. It. Might. Be. Like. To. Be. Gay. And. What. That. Would. Mean. I. Start. To. Realize. Well. Now. For. The. First. Time. In. My. Life. I. Really. Felt. Like. The. Church. Is. Telling. Me. Something. Wrong.

Daniel Parkinson [00:47:18] That. Was. Incorrect. I. Never. Really. Felt. That. You. Know. Because. I. Kind. Of. Just. I. Don't. Know. If. I. Would. Say. I. Just. Kind. Of. Followed. Like. Blind. Faith. But. I. Think. I. Made. My. Faith. Fit. Or. I. Made. My. Mind. Kind. Of. Fit. Into.

Daniel Parkinson [00:47:37] Into. What. The. Church. Taught. I. Don't. Think. I. Ever. Felt. That. The. Church. Was. I. Never. Felt. Like. They. Had. Been. Wrong. About. Something. Before. And. That. Felt. Like. That. Was. Wrong. And. So. I'd. Always. Just. Kind. Of. Had. My. Just. Wrapped. My. Brain. Around. The. Way. The. Church. Kind. Of. Thought. And.

Meg Abhau [00:47:54] I.

Daniel Parkinson [00:47:54] Think. Probably. Partly. Convinced. Myself. That. That's. How. I. Thought. About. Having. A. Son. Or. Was. It. That. You. Really. Just. Needed. To. See. Someone. In. Front. Of. You. Who. Was. Facing. This. In. Order. To. See. That. It. Was.

Meg Abhau [00:48:06] Wrong.

Daniel Parkinson [00:48:07] I. Think. I. Had. To. Know. Somebody. Like. Really. Know. Somebody. That. Was. Facing. It. Yeah. And. And. I. We've. Done. A. Couple. We've. Done. Some. Podcasts. Where. I've. Talked. About. Other. Gay. Individuals. In. My. Past. Who. I. Knew. And. I. Loved. And. I. Think. They. Felt. Love. For. Me. And. They've. Told. Me.

Meg Abhau [00:48:23] That.

Daniel Parkinson [00:48:23] Since. Even. Though. I. Wasn't. All. Yay. Gay. But. You. Know. But. They. But. They. Did. Say. That. I. That. They. Felt. Safe.

Meg Abhau [00:48:30] Around.

Daniel Parkinson [00:48:31] Me. If. You. Will. Even. Though. I. Mean. My. Views. Didn't. Line. Up. But. So. Meg. Meg. Brought. Up. A. Couple. Things. To.

Meg Abhau [00:48:40] Me.

Daniel Parkinson [00:48:40] And. As. Being. A. Former. Missionary. I. Definitely. Thought. That. I. Had. Kind. Of. Been. I. Had. Faced. Everything. Before. And. So. I. Remember. Thinking. She. Would. Mention. Something. I'd. Be. Like.

Meg Abhau [00:48:50] Yeah.

Daniel Parkinson [00:48:50] Okay. I. Know. I. Know. About. That. You. Know. And. She. Had. Mentioned. Something. Else. About. It. Little. Bit. More. In. Depth. And. And.

Meg Abhau [00:48:57] I.

Daniel Parkinson [00:48:57] Felt. Like. I.

Meg Abhau [00:48:58] Had.

Daniel Parkinson [00:48:58] To. Kind. Of. Go. And. And. Support. My. Support. My. Claim. I. Guess. Yeah. And. So. So. I. Would. Go. And. I. Would. Research. And. And. Sure. Enough. I'd. Come. Back. And. I. Would. Be. Like. Like. Meg. You're. Not. I. Say. May. You're. You're. Actually. Not. Right.

Daniel Parkinson [00:49:16] It's. Way. Worse. Than. You. Thought. You. Know. Because. There's. This. This. This. And. This. You. Know. And. That. Happened. Over. And. Over. And. Over. And. Over. Again. And. It. Just. Became. It. Became. Problematic. But. The. Whole. Time. I'm. Just. I. Mean. I'm. Holding. On. With. Your. Life. With. My. Faith. Because. This. Is. What. I. Want. And. I. Want. The. Mormon. Church. This. Is. The. Path. That. I. Want.

Daniel Parkinson [00:49:36] And. So. Going. Back. With. What. I. Was. Saying. Before. About. The. Church's. Stance. Of. The. Gay. Issue. Certainly. It. Was. A. Catalyst. If. That. Was. The. Only. Thing. If. That. Was. The. Only. Thing. For. Me. I. Would. Still. Be. I. Would. Still. Be. In. The. Church. I. Don't. Know. If. I. Don't.

Meg Abhau [00:49:54] Know.

Daniel Parkinson [00:49:54] How. We. I. Don't. Know. How. We. Would. Be. Handling. John. You. Know. As. Far. As. His. Attendance. You. Know. Because. Even. If. You. Were. In. The. Church. You. Wouldn't. Have. Insisted. John. Go. You. Wouldn't. Have. Tried. To. Promote. One. Of. The. Church. Recommended. Past. Which.

Meg Abhau [00:50:07] Is.

Daniel Parkinson [00:50:07] Celibacy. Or. Mixed. Orientation. I. Would. Assume. I. Can't. Say. For. Sure. What. I. Would. Have. Thought. Because. I. Because. But. I. Certainly. Wouldn't. Have. Promoted. Paths. That. Were. Unsafe. But. Part. Of. Me. If. I. Was. Still. Believing. The. Church. Like. Any. Member. Of. The. Church. Who. Believes. The. Church. Wants. The. Church's. Path. For. Everybody. In. Their. Life. That's. What. You're. Taught. That's. What. You. Believe. Of. Course. You. Want. That. Because. You. Think. There's. A. Higher. Power. Kind. Of.

Meg Abhau [00:50:33] At.

Daniel Parkinson [00:50:33] Work. That. Understands. More. Than. We. Do. Because. That's. How. You're.

Meg Abhau [00:50:36] Taught.

Daniel Parkinson [00:50:36] And. That's. What. You. Think. And. So. As. Things. Kind. Of. Started. To. Unravel. For. Me. That. Became. Less. And. Less. Clear. That. There. Was. A. Higher. Power. At. Work. Specifically. Within. The. Mormon. Church. And. Then. So. Everything. Else. Kind. Of. Started. To. Break. Down. Then. Of. Course. The. Gay.

Meg Abhau [00:50:53] Issue.

Daniel Parkinson [00:50:53] Was. The. Easy. One. To. Kind. Of. Fall. Into. Line. But. The. Gay. Issue. On. Its. Own. Wasn't. Enough. I. Mean. Not. Even. Close. Enough. For. Me. To. Be. Like. The. Reason. That. I. Would. Leave. The. Church. And. People. Have. Asked. Me. That.

Meg Abhau [00:51:04] A.

Daniel Parkinson [00:51:04] Lot. They've. Said. Are. You. Leaving. The. Church. Because. Your. Son's. Gay. And. It's. A. Very. Very. Complicated. Question. To. Answer. But. The. Ultimate. Answer. Is. No. There's. Really. Nothing. To. Do. With. It. But. Was. That. A. Catalyst. It. Was. A. Catalyst.

Meg Abhau [00:51:18] But.

Daniel Parkinson [00:51:18] It's. Certainly. Not. The. Reason. And. It. Doesn't. Even. Really. For. Me. It. Doesn't. Even. Really. Contribute.

Meg Abhau [00:51:23] To.

Daniel Parkinson [00:51:23] The. Reason. Because. That. I. Could. Live. With. That. I. Would. Have. To. Change. Things. I. Think. On. How. Parent. John. And. To. Keep. Him. Safe. But. That. Wasn't. Enough. To. Make. Me. Not. Believe. At. All. But. Let's. Have. Let. Me. Remind. You. I'm. Just. Trying. To. Put. This. In. Place. Because. I. Was. Talking. To. You. Periodically. During. This. Period. And. There. Was. At. One. Point. Where. You. Had. An. Interview. With. Your. Bishop. Where. He. Didn't. Renew. Your. Temple. Recommend. And. It. Seems. Like. That. Was. Literally. Over. Something. To. Do. With. A. Gay. Issue. I. Mean. Can. You. It. Was. I'm. Not. Sure. Quite. What. Stage. That. Was. At. But. I. Thought. It. Was. Funny. You're. Still. Relatively. Believing. Or. I. Was. I. Was. Believing. I. Was. I. Was. Struggling. With. Some. Issues. And. Trying. To.

Meg Abhau [00:52:02] Kind.

Daniel Parkinson [00:52:03] Of. Make. Have. Them. Make. Sense. In. My. Head. As. Meg. And. I. Were. Talking. About. Some. Of. These. Things. And. He. Didn't. Renew. Well. Wasn't. Renewing. My. Temple. Recommend. What. Happened. Is. I. Actually. Went. In. To. Speak.

Meg Abhau [00:52:14] With.

Daniel Parkinson [00:52:14] Him. Well. Let. Me. Step. Back. What. Happened. It. Was. My. Stake. President. And. What. Happened. Was. Is. Very. Very. Quickly.

Meg Abhau [00:52:23] We.

Daniel Parkinson [00:52:23] Met. We. Got. Involved.

Meg Abhau [00:52:25] A. Little.

Daniel Parkinson [00:52:25] Bit. With. Affirmation. And. Started. To. Get. To. Know. Some. People. Around. The. Raleigh. North. Carolina. Area. Who. Identified. As. Gay. Identified. As. Mormon. Some. Of. Them. Went. To. Church. And. Nobody. Knew. They. Were. Gay. Some. Of. Them. Just. Haven't. Been. To. Church. In. Years. But. They. All. Had. This. One. Commonality. And. So. Randall. Thackeray. Kind. Of. Put. Us. In. Touch. With. Some. Of. These. People. And. Really. Quickly. Essentially. There. Were. Twenty. Eight. Individuals. That.

Meg Abhau [00:52:50] I.

Daniel Parkinson [00:52:50] Knew. In. That. Area. That. I'd. Met. Once. Or. Twice. Here. And. There. Who. Identified. That. Way. And. They. Felt. Like. They. Couldn't. Either. Either. They. Couldn't. Be. Open. To. Church. Or. They. Felt. Like. They. Couldn't. Go. To. Church. Some. Of. Them. Felt. Like. They. Couldn't. Go. Back. Home. And. Visit. Their. Parents. Because. Their. Parents. Would. Make. Them. Go. To. Church. And. They.

Meg Abhau [00:53:05] Would.

Daniel Parkinson [00:53:05] Say. Leave. The. Gay. Back. Up. There. And. You. Know. And. So. I. Saw. All. These. People. Individually. Who. Were. Just. Struggling. You. Know. In. Life. And. These. Age. Ranges. From. Seventeen. Into. Fifty. Six.

Meg Abhau [00:53:18] Fourteen.

Daniel Parkinson [00:53:19] Well. The. People. That. The. People. That.

Meg Abhau [00:53:21] I.

Daniel Parkinson [00:53:21] Was. Referring. To. Yeah. The. Age. Was. Like. Seventeen. To. Fifty. Six. And. Everything. In. Between. And. So. I. Called. Our. Executive. Secretary. And. Set. Up. An. Appointment. With. My. Stake. President. To. Talk. To. Him. About. These. Twenty. Eight. Souls. Who. Weren't. Who. Didn't. Feel. Welcome. At. Church. And. What. Do. We. Do.

Meg Abhau [00:53:41] About.

Daniel Parkinson [00:53:41] It. I. Mean. That. Was. My. Goal. You. He. Didn't. Know. Why. I. Was. Calling. I. Think. He. Thought. I. Was. Doing. A. Temple. Recommend. Interview. Because. He. Didn't. Know. But. My. Temple. Recommend. I. Was. Like. In. The. Middle. Of. It. I. Had. Another. Year. Left. And. So. When. We. Sat. Down. And. Talked. And. I. Told. Him. And. I. Mentioned. These. Twenty. Eight. People. I. Said. Listen. They're. Twenty. Eight. People. I. Don't. Care. Why. They. Don't. Feel. Like. They. Can. Go. To. Church. We. Can. Blame. Them. We. Can. Blame. Us. Whatever. It. Doesn't. Matter. But. These. Twenty. Eight. People. Want. The. Gospel. At. Some. Level. You. Don't. Know. Who. They. Are. I. Knew. Who. They. Are. What. Can. We. Do. I. Mean. That. Was. My. Right. That. Was. My. Intention.

Meg Abhau [00:54:12] And.

Daniel Parkinson [00:54:13] What. I. Led. With. And. What. Transpired. Over. That. Was. We. Uncovered. A. Couple. Things. We. Talked. About. A. Couple. Of. The. Well. I. Mentioned. An. Experience. I. Had. In. A. Pride. Parade. That. We. Marched. In. In. Dc. I. Had. Mentioned. Some. Of. Meg's. Faith. Situations. And. How. I. Didn't. Feel. Comfortable. Paying. Tithing. Because. That's. Not. Completely. At. Least. You. Know. Because. I. Was. Like. That's. I. Knew. Where. Meg. Was. I. Was. Like. That's. Her. Money. Too. And. I. Would. Feel. Like. That's.

Meg Abhau [00:54:48] Not.

Daniel Parkinson [00:54:48] Fair. To. Her. And. You. Know. I. Basically. Was. Like. We're. Trying. To. Work. That. Out. You. Know. Right. Now. As. We. Kind. Of. Go. Through. This. On. What's. Fair. Because. I. Certainly. Didn't. Want. Her. To. Feel. Like. I'm. Choosing. The. Church. Financially. Over. Our. Family. If. She. Was. Uncomfortable. With. That. And. We. Hadn't. Really. Talked. About. That. At. That. Point. Yet. You. Know. I'm.

Meg Abhau [00:55:04] Just.

Daniel Parkinson [00:55:04] Thinking. My. Family. Or. Marriage. Is. First. You.

Meg Abhau [00:55:08] Know.

Daniel Parkinson [00:55:08] Here. And. I. Mentioned. That. And. But. When. I. Was. When. I. Mentioned. The. Pride. Parade. And. My. Experience. There. Which. I. Was. Actually. Sharing. My. Very. Personal. Emotional. Experience. That. I. Had. At. The. Pride. Parade. His. Takeaway. Was. That. He.

Meg Abhau [00:55:23] Thought.

Daniel Parkinson [00:55:23] He'd. Revoke. He. Thought.

Meg Abhau [00:55:24] It. Was.

Daniel Parkinson [00:55:24] Appropriate. To. Revoke. My. Temple. Recommendations. And. At. That. Exact. Moment. That. He. Did. It. I. Realized. How. I. Had.

Meg Abhau [00:55:36] I.

Daniel Parkinson [00:55:36] Mean. Any. Respect. I. Had. For. Him. It. Was. Gone. Like. In. An. Instant. And. I. Didn't. Really. Show. Anything. I. Just. Was. Like. Okay. You. Know. I. Said. You. Mean. Like. Right. Now. You. Know. And. He. Said. Yes. I. Didn't. Have.

Meg Abhau [00:55:48] It.

Daniel Parkinson [00:55:48] On. It. Wasn't. On. Me. So. I. Didn't. Have. It. I. Said. You. Want. Me. To. Mail. It. To. You. He. Goes. Yeah. That'd. Be. Fine. Like. Okay. I. Was. In. My. Mind. I'm. Rolling. My. Eyes. But. I've. Trying. To. Show. Him. Respect. Because. He's. My. Church. Leader. And. This. Is.

Meg Abhau [00:56:02] The.

Daniel Parkinson [00:56:02] Same. Person. We. Went. On. To. Talk. About. The. State. Dances. And. The. Policies. You. Know. And. Some. I. Mean. It. Made. Sense. I. Understood. His. Perspective. Through. What. He. Had. Been. Taught. And. All. The.

Meg Abhau [00:56:15] Rules.

Daniel Parkinson [00:56:15] And. Everything. That's. In. Place. He's. Just. Doing. What. He. Thinks. He. Should. Do. You. Know. To. Basically. Enforce. Isn't. The. Right. Word. But. Like. To. Enforce. The. Doctrines. Of.

Meg Abhau [00:56:25] The.

Daniel Parkinson [00:56:26] Church. And. What's. Consistent. But. When. I. Walked. Away. From. That. I'm. Like. There. Were. Twenty. Eight. People. That. I. Felt. Like. I. Could. Help. Or. That. He. Could. Help. And. I. Could. Help. Facilitate. That. And. All. I. Did. I. Walked. Away. Going. Well.

Meg Abhau [00:56:42] Now.

Daniel Parkinson [00:56:42] There's. Twenty. Nine. You. Know. Because. He.

Meg Abhau [00:56:44] Just.

Daniel Parkinson [00:56:44] Pushed. Or. Really. Twenty. Nine. Thirty. Thirty. One. I. Mean.

Meg Abhau [00:56:48] With.

Daniel Parkinson [00:56:48] Our. Family. And. So. He. Just. Kind. Of. Pushed. That. Away. And. I. Was. Like. And. At. That. Moment. I. Realized. This. Steak. Is. Not. Okay. For. Us. For. Our. Family. This. Is. The. Head. Of. The. Stake. You. Know. And. This.

Meg Abhau [00:57:02] Is.

Daniel Parkinson [00:57:02] This. Is. How. He's. Approaching. People. Who. Are. What. I. Felt. Were. Completely. Just. Being. Trying. To. Be. Open. And. Loving. Towards. Gay. People. And. Your. Son. Yeah. And. My. Son. You. Know. I. Was. Like. This. Isn't. A. Safe. Place. I. Really. I. Mean. That. Was. The. Moment. I. Really. Realized. This. Is. Not. A. Safe. Place. But. We'd. Also. Always. Protected. John. From. Stuff. Like. That. Yeah. You. Know. We've. Always. Been. Out. In. Front. Keeping. Him. From. Having. To. Have. Those. Kinds. Of. Situations. Our. Bishop. In. Raleigh. Was. A. Great. Bishop. And. He's. A. Great. Man. And. I. Think. What. He. Wanted. To. Do. He. Probably. Would. Have. Just. Given. Us. Hugs. All. Day.

Meg Abhau [00:57:33] Long.

Daniel Parkinson [00:57:34] And. Been. Like. I. Love. You. But. He. Didn't. Really. Know. What. To. Do. But. I. Do. Appreciate. Him. His. Efforts. You. Know. He. And. I. Had. Had. Lengthy. Conversations. And. They. Were. Really. Really. Positive. But. He. Just. He. Didn't. Have. Anything. To. Offer. And. He. Knew. He. Didn't. Have. Anything. For. Us. But. But. But. What. We. Knew. Is. In. The. Stake. That. It. Was. Just. Wasn't. Going.

Meg Abhau [00:57:54] To.

Daniel Parkinson [00:57:54] Be. A. Fantastic. Place. And. Fortunately. For. Us. I. Mean. That. Well. That. Was. The. Moment. I. Realized. This. Stake. Is. Not. Good. We. Need. To. Do. Something. And. Then. In. A. Matter. Of. Basically. Weeks. We. Were. Actually. In. The. Middle.

Meg Abhau [00:58:06] Of.

Daniel Parkinson [00:58:06] A. Movement. And. I. Got. Laid. Off. From. My. Job. Like. In. The. Same. Little. Situation. And. So. We. Found. Ourselves. In. A. Spot. Where. We. Were. Basically. Homeless. And. Jobless. You. Know. And. We. Could. Go. Anywhere. To. Kind. Of. Restart. And. So. The. Logical. Thought. Was. If. This. Isn't. A. Safe. Place. We're. Not. Sure. What. We. Were. Doing. Going. Forward. With. The. Church. But. We. Know. This. Isn't. The. Place. To. Do. It. Right. And. Then. Ended. Up. Moving. To. Arizona. Okay. So. So. This. Was. This. Happened. And. This. You. Had. An. Experience. Of. Kind. Of. Feeling. Pushed. Out. While. You. Were. For. Really. Trying. To. Support. Lgbt. People.

Meg Abhau [00:58:49] And.

Daniel Parkinson [00:58:50] This. Was. While. You. Were. Still. Trying. To. Stay. In. The. Church. Correct. Yeah. I. Went. In. There. In. Hopes. To. Make. A. Difference. To. Change. To. Try. To. Change. The. Culture. Of. Our. Area. For. Twenty. Eight. Individual. People. Who. I. Knew.

Meg Abhau [00:59:04] Were.

Daniel Parkinson [00:59:04] Struggling. Yeah. And. That. Was. That. Was. It. And. I. Realized. Really. Really. Quick. At.

Meg Abhau [00:59:09] The.

Daniel Parkinson [00:59:09] End. Of. This. Hour. Conversation. That. This. Was. Going. To. Be. I. Suddenly. Identified. It. With. The. Twenty. Eight. People. That. This. Was. Not. Gonna. Happen. Here. And. It's. Sort. Of. Like. You. Know. There's. This. You. Know. If. The. President's. If. The. Church. Leaders. See. The. Church. Like. The. Body. You. Know. And. They.

Meg Abhau [00:59:27] See.

Daniel Parkinson [00:59:27] This. Body. Body. Has. A. Cancer. We. Got.

Meg Abhau [00:59:29] To.

Daniel Parkinson [00:59:29] Take. Out. The. Cancer. And. Kill. It. And. That's. Kind. Of. How. They. Historically. Have. Treated. Gay. People. You. Know. They're. A. Cancer. Let's. Get. Them. Out. We. Don't. Want. Them. Let's. Excommunicate. Him. Let's. Ostracize. Them. And. I. Think. That. In. The. Past. Back. Before. Gay. People. Had. Much. Support. From. Their. Families. And. That. It. Worked. And. They. Got. The. Gay. People. Out. And. In. General. Their. Families. He's. Also. Ostracized. Him. And. This. Was. How. It. Happened. To. The. Church. But. It. Wasn't. About. Trying. To. Save. Them. It. Was. About. Trying. To. Save. The. Church. From. Their. Horribleness. You.

Meg Abhau [01:00:03] Know.

Daniel Parkinson [01:00:04] Perversion. Or. Whatever. And. So. There's. It. Wasn't. Ever. Really. This. Idea. Of. The. Ninety. Nine. And. Going. After. The. One. Which. Sounds. Like. It. Was. A. Philosophy. You. Were. Going. In. You. Got. Confronted. With. You. Know. Let's. Treat. Him. As. A. Cancer. That's. Got. To. Be. Sacrificed. Kind. Of. Thing. I'm. Guessing. I. Can. Only. Assume. That's. Why. He. Thought. He. Was. Helping. Me. By. Taking. What. You. Recommend. At. That. Moment. It's. Hard. To. It's. Really. I. Mean. Obviously. I.

Meg Abhau [01:00:31] Don't.

Daniel Parkinson [01:00:32] Know. What. He. Was. Thinking. But. To. Relay. With. That. I. Mean. What. A. Lot. Of. People. Say. Well. That's. The. People. In. The. Church. You. Know. It's. The. Culture. Of. The. Church. Which. Isn't. Really. The. Church. And. Yeah. That. That. Argument. Drives. Me. Crazy. Because. The. Church. From. The. Top. Down. Has. Complete. Control. Over. The. Culture. Of. The. Church. If. They. Decide. To. Exercise. That. Control. I. Think. In. One. General. Conference. Talk. You. Could. Make. One. Super. Loving. Gay. Friendly. Say. The. Word. Gay. Once. It's. Not. An. Offensive. Term. Most. People. You. Know. Have. That. One. Talk. And. Be. Very. Specific. Yeah. And. You. Could. Save. A. Lot. Of. People. A. Lot.

Meg Abhau [01:01:15] Of.

Daniel Parkinson [01:01:15] Heartache. Yeah. But. Instead. You. Know. There's. Definitely. A. Lot. Of. Anti. Gay. Rhetoric. Yeah. And. Regularly. Every. Single. Time. You. Count. On. And. Then. There. And. Then. There. And. Then.

Meg Abhau [01:01:24] There.

Daniel Parkinson [01:01:24] And. Then. There. Is. The. We. Love. Everybody. Yeah. So. Once. While. They're. Vaguely. Affirming. That. You. Could. Kind. Of. Say. Might. Include. Gay. People. From. Someone. Like. President. Uchtdorf. Sure. But. There's. Never. A. Specific. Invitation. To. Gay. People. Nobody. Has. The. Guts. To. Do. It. It. Seems. Like. Or. Else. They're. Not. Being. Allowed. I. Don't. Know. But. It. Doesn't. Happen. And. Until. That. Happens. I. Don't. Know. How.

Meg Abhau [01:01:45] The.

Daniel Parkinson [01:01:45] Culture. Of. The. Church. Won't. Change. Because. The. Culture. Because. People. Hear. That's. Your. Believing. Members. They. Hear. The. Same. Thing. They. Hear. Okay. We're. Kind. Of. Anti. Gay. But. We. Love. Everybody. You. Know. And. What. Does. That. What. Does. That. Mean. You. Know. That. Means. That. My. Stake. President. Is. Like. Well. We're.

Meg Abhau [01:02:01] Kind.

Daniel Parkinson [01:02:01] Of. Anti. Gay. I. Mean. Gonna. Love. You. But. From. Over. Here. Which. Isn't. Any. Kind. Of. Love. So. To. Me. It's. I. Mean. The. Church. As. A. Whole. Could. Make. A. Big. Difference. If. They. Decided. To. Yeah. I. Don't. Know. If. They. Want. To. I. Wish. They. Did. Or. Enough. Of. Them. Did. And. We. Are. Hoping. And. A. Lot. Of. People. Are. Praying. That. That. Will. Happen. But.

Jake and Meg Reflect on Their Shared Path

Meg Abhau [01:02:25] Also. Just. To. Kind. Of. Be. Clear. On. This. Jake. And. I. Are. Usually. Always. On. The. Same. Page. We. At.

Daniel Parkinson [01:02:33] Least.

Meg Abhau [01:02:33] Try. To. I. Think. We've. Got. A. Really. Good. Relationship. As.

Daniel Parkinson [01:02:35] Well.

Meg Abhau [01:02:36] As. A. Friendship. We. Really. Like. Each. Other. We. Love. Each. Other. So. Much. We've. Got.

Daniel Parkinson [01:02:39] A.

Meg Abhau [01:02:39] Really. Solid. Family. Foundation. And. Relationship. But. Where. We. Differ. Is. That. And. What. Some. People. Might. Relate. To. Me. And. My. Story. Is. That. The. Gay. Issue. Was. Enough. To. Drive. Me. Away.

Daniel Parkinson [01:02:55] From.

Meg Abhau [01:02:55] The. Church.

Daniel Parkinson [01:02:56] I.

Meg Abhau [01:02:56] Know. It. Wasn't. Enough. For. Jake. It. Took. A. Lot. More. And. Some. People. Might. Say. Well. Maybe. My. Testimony. Wasn't. Strong. Enough. Or. I. Don't. Know. What. They'll. Say. But.

Daniel Parkinson [01:03:06] For.

Meg Abhau [01:03:06] Me. It. Was. Enough. So. There. Might. Be. Some. Other. People. That. I. Happen. To. Stumble. Across. These. Things. So. It. Didn't. Hurt. As. Much. Because. My. I. Think. If. You're. Holding. On. To. The. Testimony. You're. Holding. Onto. Your. Testimony. And. You're. Holding. On. To. Your. Like. The. Gay. Issue. You. Know. You. Want.

Daniel Parkinson [01:03:29] To.

Meg Abhau [01:03:30] Hold. That. Protect. It. And. Be. An. Advocate. In. That. And. Hold. Your. Testimony. It's. Really. Hard. It's. Really. Hurtful. It's. An. Extremely. Painful. Process.

Daniel Parkinson [01:03:42] Why. Is.

Meg Abhau [01:03:42] It.

Daniel Parkinson [01:03:42] Painful. Why. Is. It. So. Why. Is. It. Hard. To. Hang. On. To. Your. Testimony. If. The.

Meg Abhau [01:03:46] Only.

Daniel Parkinson [01:03:46] Issue. Is. That. You. Care. About. Lgbt. People.

Treatment of LGBT People as a Catalyst for Doubt

Meg Abhau [01:03:50] That's. A. Really. Good. Question. For. Me. It. Was. Just. The. Treatment. Of. The. Lgbt. People. And. I. Don't.

Daniel Parkinson [01:03:58] Know. If.

Meg Abhau [01:03:58] It. Would. Have. Been. My. Testimony. I. Don't. Know. It's. All. Encompassing. It's. Hard. To. Separate. All. Of. The.

Daniel Parkinson [01:04:03] Issues.

Meg Abhau [01:04:03] Out. From. Each. Other. Of. What. Exactly. Kind.

Daniel Parkinson [01:04:06] Of.

Meg Abhau [01:04:06] Hurt. My. Testimony. And. Pushed. Me. Out. Of. The. Church. But. I. Say. Push. Me. Out.

Daniel Parkinson [01:04:12] I. Don't.

Meg Abhau [01:04:12] Feel. Like. I. Walked. Out. Willingly. It. Felt. Devastating. But. The. Treatment. Of. The. Lgbt. People. And. My. Love. For. That. Community. And. Again. I. Wish. That. I. Knew. More. Beforehand. I. Thought. I. Always. Loved. Gay. People. You. Know. They. Don't.

Daniel Parkinson [01:04:31] Go.

Meg Abhau [01:04:31] To. Church. Because. It. Just. Doesn't. It. Doesn't.

Daniel Parkinson [01:04:33] Work.

Meg Abhau [01:04:33] For. Them. And. I. Respect. That. And. I. Understand. You. Know. You. Have. To. Follow. Your. Life. Path. And. Find. Ultimately. What. Makes. You. Happiest. But. Until. It. That. Was. So. Naive. That. Was. Such. A. Naive. Position. Because. I. Didn't. Think. It. Through. I. Didn't. Think. Through. What. That. Was. Going. To. Do. And. How. We. Treated.

Daniel Parkinson [01:04:51] Them.

Meg Abhau [01:04:51] And. Why. They. Leave. It's. We're. Pushing. Them. Out. And. The. Treatment. Of. Lgbt. People. Has. Been. Awful. And. That's. Just. The. Truth. It's. What. It. Is. I'm. Sorry. That. There. It. Can't. I. Can't. Put. A. Positive. Spin. On. That. Now. Some. People. Might. Say. I. Love. Gay. People. You. Know. And. I. Still. Have. My. Testimony. But. You. Start. To. Look. At. The. Church. Organization. With. A. Critical. Eye. When. You. When. You. See. When. You. Really. See. That. When. You. Really. Read. That. Why. Are. These. Kids. Killing. Themselves. Why. Are. Parents. Kicking. Their. Kids. Out. Of. The. House.

Daniel Parkinson [01:05:25] In.

Meg Abhau [01:05:25] The.

Daniel Parkinson [01:05:25] Middle.

Youth Suicides in Utah and the Cost of Rejection

Meg Abhau [01:05:25] Of. Winter. And. These. You. Know. We. Had. Five. In. One. Week. Just. In. Up. In. Wasatch. County. And. One. Of. The. Girls. Is. A. Straight. A. Honor. Student. And. She. Slept. On. The. Stoops. Of. Her.

Daniel Parkinson [01:05:37] School.

Meg Abhau [01:05:37] Building. Because.

Daniel Parkinson [01:05:38] She. Didn't.

Meg Abhau [01:05:38] Want.

Daniel Parkinson [01:05:38] To.

Meg Abhau [01:05:38] Be. Late. For. Class. But. She. Was. Kicked. Out. Immediately. With. The. Clothes. On. Her. Back. It's. Just. We. Need. To. Do. Something. About. That. We. Need. To. Change. That. So. I'm. Not. Shedding. A. Light. On. This. To. Bash. On. The. Church. I. Really. Am. Hoping. To. Shed. A. Light. On. This. So. We. Can. Change. The. Culture. Of.

Daniel Parkinson [01:05:54] At.

Meg Abhau [01:05:54] Least. That. At. Least. Our. Treatment. Of. The. Lgbt. People.

Daniel Parkinson [01:05:57] Yeah.

Meg Abhau [01:05:58] Now. If.

Daniel Parkinson [01:06:00] You.

Meg Abhau [01:06:00] Are. Somebody. Who. Agrees. With. That. And. You're. Still. Trying. To. Hold. On. To. Your. Testimony. It. Gets. Hard. It. Gets. Tricky. Because. You. Have. To. See. The. Church. In. A. Critical. Light. And. Hold. Your. Testimony. It's. Really. Complicated. For. A. Lot. Of. People.

Daniel Parkinson [01:06:15] So. You. Just. See. Something. That. You. See. Seems. Blatantly. Wrong. That. The. Church. Is. Doing. And. That. Makes. It. Hard. To. And. You. Kind. Of. Mentioned. That.

Meg Abhau [01:06:24] Too.

Daniel Parkinson [01:06:24] Jake. That. It. Was. The. First. Time. That. You. Were. Confronting. Something. Where. You. Thought. The. Church. Was. Patently.

Meg Abhau [01:06:29] Wrong. They. Don't. Have. Policies. Like. The. Church. Doesn't. Have.

Daniel Parkinson [01:06:33] A.

Meg Abhau [01:06:33] Policy. To. Kick. Your. Kid. Out. But. Somehow. People. Are. Getting. A. Message. That. This. Is. The. Best. Way. That. This. Is. What. They. Should. Do.

Daniel Parkinson [01:06:43] Or. That. It's. An. Option.

Meg Abhau [01:06:44] Or. That. It's. An. Option.

Daniel Parkinson [01:06:45] It. Shouldn't. Be. An. Option.

Meg Abhau [01:06:46] Yeah. That. Somehow. They're. Choosing. God. And. The. Gospel. Above. Their. Own. Children.

Daniel Parkinson [01:06:52] Right.

Meg Abhau [01:06:52] And.

Daniel Parkinson [01:06:53] That. Hard. Love. Is. Appropriate. Which. I. Think. Is. I. Think. That's. What. The. Parents. Are. Yeah. The. Tough. Love. I. Think. That's. What. Parents. Think. It. Is. They. Think. That. It's. Appropriate. Well. Ambitious.

Meg Abhau [01:07:02] With.

Daniel Parkinson [01:07:02] That. I. Saw. A.

Meg Abhau [01:07:03] Message.

Daniel Parkinson [01:07:03] Today. From. A. Bishop. Who. Responded. On. No. More. Strangers. Blog. Saying. Basically. That. That. You. Know. The. Bishop's. Doing. His. Best. But. He. Has. To. Condemn. The. Sin. And. So. Instead. Of. For.

Meg Abhau [01:07:15] Some.

Daniel Parkinson [01:07:15] Reason. He. Got. It. That. He. Instead. Of. Being. Empathetic. And. Trying. To. Understand. The. Gay. People. And. Trying. To. You. Know. Take. There's. This. Reality. Most. Gay. Mormons. Are. In. Same. Sex. Relationships. Most. Of. Them. Leave.

Meg Abhau [01:07:26] The.

Daniel Parkinson [01:07:26] Church. And. They're. Mostly. In. Same. Sex. Relationships. A. Lot. Of. Them. Would. Like. To. Come. Back. So. You. Have. Two. Choices. Let. Them. Or. Not. Let. Them. But. His. Kind. Of. Like. He. Has. To. Condemn. The. Sin. Therefore. He. Has. To. Remind. Them. Every. Time. He. Sees. Them. That. They're. Sinning. And. That's. Not. Inviting.

Meg Abhau [01:07:41] Them.

Daniel Parkinson [01:07:41] Back.

Meg Abhau [01:07:42] To.

Daniel Parkinson [01:07:42] Church.

Meg Abhau [01:07:42] It's.

Daniel Parkinson [01:07:43] Not. Well. Came. Into. The. Church.

Meg Abhau [01:07:45] Go. There.

Daniel Parkinson [01:07:46] I. Mean.

Meg Abhau [01:07:46] This.

Daniel Parkinson [01:07:47] Was. A. Comment. He. Made. And. That. Was. The. Response. I. Had. I.

Meg Abhau [01:07:49] Said.

Daniel Parkinson [01:07:49] Not. All. Bishops. Do. That. There. Are. Bishops. Who. Do. Welcome. Them. In. But. There's. Too. Many. Who. Don't. And. You're. Right. They're. Somehow. Rooted. Into. Our. Culture. And. There's. No. Direction. From. Church. Leaders. To. Do. Otherwise.

Meg Abhau [01:08:02] Yeah. And. At. What. Point. Do. We. Put. The. Human. First. I. Believe. At. What. Point. Do. We. Just. Love. Unconditionally. What. We. Talk. About. Unconditional. Love. And. You. Know. At. What. Point. Do. We. Put. Human. Beings. Above. Sin. You.

Daniel Parkinson [01:08:17] Know. The.

Meg Abhau [01:08:17] Word. Sin.

Daniel Parkinson [01:08:18] Well. There's. Other. Sins. That. Don't. Lead. To. Ostracism.

Meg Abhau [01:08:21] Exactly.

Daniel Parkinson [01:08:22] Why. Does. This. One. Have. To. There's. Plenty. Of. Sins. That. And. Some. Are. Different. In. Different. Places. But. There's. Everyone. At. Church. Is. A. Sinner. But.

Meg Abhau [01:08:29] Yep.

Daniel Parkinson [01:08:31] Soapbox. Thank. You. For. Joining. Us. Today. On. Mormon. Stories. Podcast. To. Discuss. This. Podcast. With. The. Others. Please. Check. Us. Out. At. Mormonstories. Dot. Org. To. Join. One. Of. Our. Eighty. Plus. Support. Communities. Across. The. Globe. Click. On. The. Support. Communities. Tab. At. Mormonstories. Dot. Org. To. Keep. This. Podcast. Alive. Please. Consider. A. Tax. Deductible. Donation. Today. By. Becoming. A. Monthly. Subscriber. At. Mormonstories. Dot. Org. A. Big. Thanks. To. The. Saber. Rattlers. For. Providing. The. Music. For. Today's. Episode. The. Mormonstories. Logo. Was. Generously. Donated. By. Studiocase. Dot. Com. Come. Come.

Meg Abhau [01:09:06] Ye.

Daniel Parkinson [01:09:06] Saints.

Meg Abhau [01:09:08] No.

Daniel Parkinson [01:09:08] Toil. Nor.

Meg Abhau [01:09:09] Labor. Fear. But.

Daniel Parkinson [01:09:13] With. Joy. Wend. Your.

Meg Abhau [01:09:16] Way.

Daniel Parkinson [01:09:20] Though. Hard. To.

Meg Abhau [01:09:21] You. This.

Daniel Parkinson [01:09:23] Journey. May. Appear. Grace. Shall. Be. As. Your. Day. Tis. Better.

Meg Abhau [01:09:33] Far.

Daniel Parkinson [01:09:36] For.

Meg Abhau [01:09:36] Us.

Daniel Parkinson [01:09:37] To. Strive. Our. Useless. Cares.

Meg Abhau [01:09:42] From.

Daniel Parkinson [01:09:43] Us.

Meg Abhau [01:09:43] To.

Daniel Parkinson [01:09:44] Drive. To. The. San. Jo. Hearts. Will. Swell. Oh. All. Is. Well.

Meg Abhau [01:09:55] All.

Daniel Parkinson [01:09:55] Is. Well.

Part Three Begins: Becoming LGBT Advocates

Part 3 of 3 · Ep. 510

Daniel Parkinson [00:00:06] Mormon Stories podcast is a production of the Open Stories Foundation. All donations to Mormon Stories are fully tax deductible and go directly towards keeping the podcast alive and towards building a community of support for Mormons like you.

Guest [00:00:19] Come, come, ye saints. No toil nor labor fear, but with joy. When you're

Daniel Parkinson [00:00:34] Jake, I don't think we need to dwell on which particular issue got you, you know, really, but can you just sort of give us the narrative that you guys moved and.

Jake Abhau [00:00:43] Yeah, so. So with Meg and I, by the end of the summer, we were pretty much on the same page as far as our feelings towards the church, as far as whether or not we. I mean, there's two things is whether or not we were going to go. And then it kind of became whether or not we believed, you know, And I think ultimately around when we came to the same conclusion, probably around September, October last year, where both of us, I think we were completely together and everything, we took a little bit of a different path to get there in a different pace.

Daniel Parkinson [00:01:15] But.

Jake Abhau [00:01:16] But for me too, it was. The gay issue was. It may have been enough reason for me to leave the church, but it wasn't enough reason for me to not believe it.

Meg Abhau [00:01:25] Right.

Jake Abhau [00:01:25] And that's the distinction that I should make. But so. So by the end of the summer, we were together and we decided to move to Arizona because we had, we knew we had kind of an already built in support group out there that we had kind of been cultivating over the, over the summer.

Daniel Parkinson [00:01:41] Yeah.

Jake Abhau [00:01:42] And so it kind of became a logical place. I. We ended up in Arizona. We lived there before, so we had friends, support and I got a job, you know, so that was kind of an easy transition. And so then we just kind of settled in Arizona. And like the first week we were there, I think we looked at each other and we were like, are we going to church? And I think we said nope. And that was kind of it. Over the months I had kind of debated this is how I think. I'm thinking, what if there's a 14 year old kid there who's gay, who's feeling suicidal and needs that person.

Daniel Parkinson [00:02:18] Yeah.

Jake Abhau [00:02:18] To support. And that was like my one, the only reason I could think of why I wanted to go to church. And it. But it wasn't, but I didn't know if that existed or not. You know, it wasn't enough for me to kind of open up, to bring this kind of unhealthy thing back into our lives. Yeah, yeah. It's like I didn't want to throw John. And I wasn't saying I want to bring John to church, but I didn't know if I just wanted to bring that. We kind of just walked away from it, you know, and I felt like I needed to get on my. We need to kind of get on our own two feet, our own four feet, I guess, you know, and make sure our family. We know where we are before we really try to go out and do something like that.

Daniel Parkinson [00:02:59] And I hear that about wanting to stay to help others, and I really. I've been well known to encourage fence sitters to stay, if for nothing else, to help the lgbt.

Jake Abhau [00:03:09] Everybody was telling us to do that, and we need you to stay. We need you to stay.

Daniel Parkinson [00:03:13] And I do encourage a lot of people to stay, but I think I can only encourage the fence sitters to stay. I can't really encourage someone who is really, truly no longer getting at least something there. I can't encourage those people to stay who feel like there's harm being done to them by staying. So I really hope more people will stay.

Daniel Parkinson [00:03:36] I hope that becomes possible for more people. If the church culture changes, even if no doctrine changes. But I can't say it's right for everybody. And I. So I don't even on that front, even if it's only for the sake of others, every person can be there. It's a help. But I also realize that people have to choose where they're gonna fight their battles. But you guys have gone on to fight battles for the LGBT community since then. I mean, maybe you can talk a little bit about, you know, what you're doing, what you've been doing. I mean, you've even been involved in the Mormon LGBT activism from your place.

Daniel Parkinson [00:04:16] And I realize that it's been. You've been doing this while you've also been going through your own transition sort of out of the church, which can be kind of awkward. And it's also awkward for me. I'm someone who's well known to be outside the church, but I'm fighting an issue. I'm actually sort of fighting side by side with active Mormons who. Who they are in the church, and it's their church really to change, and it's mine just to help out how I can.

Meg Abhau [00:04:42] Right.

Daniel Parkinson [00:04:42] I mean, it's not my church now. I mean, I was raised there. It's my heritage. But so maybe you guys could speak to how this evolution has happened for you, both in your lives and in your activism, because you have remained strong. LGBT activists shall start with that.

Finding a Voice in LDS LGBT Activism

Meg Abhau [00:04:59] Sure. I Guess I started in activism within the LDS community for LGBT people just because it's my language and I understand, I can, I can understand, I can really know what that, why they feel so devastated, what the doctrine does to them or you know, what they, what they must be going through, losing your baptismal covenants, your eternal family, all of those things.

Meg Abhau [00:05:27] So I feel like I could have a good conversation with that. So we got involved in Affirmation Gay Mormon stories. No more strangers all Arizona. We just jumped into all these groups and we blogged and we did events, we marched in pride. I did a fundraiser last year for Affirmation too. And we could choose a facility or choose something in our community, some people to help in our community. So we looked in our all Arizona group and Affirmation group. We looked into one in 10.

Meg Abhau [00:06:04] They have halfway houses for homeless LGBT kids and they give them meals a day and do character building skills and just kind of provide mentorship. They also have their own high school. So they're in need of stuff. And so we, our LDS community got together and we did a fundraiser the supporting something that is an LDS based, but, but it's in our, our community. So we did that. This year we again with Affirmation, we're going to be doing a fundraiser for another facility for halfway houses for gay boys called Mulligan's Manor. And they are desperate for materials and clothes and shoes. You can imagine how fast they go through shoes.

Meg Abhau [00:06:49] So we provide bedding, shoes, clothing, socks to just the basics. And the most wanted items are socks. That's the thing I can imagine if you don't have a home or a couch to sit on all day, you wear through your socks pretty fast. Yeah, so.

Meg Abhau [00:07:08] So yeah, we stay really active in our LWS community. When people ask me, are you still active? I say of course I'm totally active in the Mormon church. I mean I don't go to church on Sunday and my faith has wavered. I, I don't have a belief system in the faith, but I'm so active with, with my Mormon people. Right. So to me it feels like I'm the most active I've ever been.

Daniel Parkinson [00:07:33] Because you're involved in a LDS LGBT activism and this is still a Mormon cause, even though it's not a Mormon sponsored thing. It's certainly not Mormon sponsor. But you're devoting as much of your life to that as you were ever devoting to the church.

Jake Abhau [00:07:47] And you're rep, you're representing yourself as Mormons. I mean you've got 15 Mormons bringing clothes and supplies to this halfway house, you know, and they always want to know, who are you with? You know, like, what do you say? We're, we're an unorthodox. What do you say?

Meg Abhau [00:08:03] You know, I do still feel Mormon and it, like you said, it's your heritage, it's what you're raised with. I mean, it's just a year ago, like a little over a year ago that I was active participating. So I don't know if I'll ever get to a point where I, I can separate the Mormon and the Meg. I don't know. But I still feel like they're all intertwined. Just this, just little things that you just grow up with, you can't. Yeah, I'm sure maybe they will unwind themselves eventually. Maybe. I don't know. But I, you know, if somebody says, ask me if I'm Mormon, I'll say that I'm Mormon, but that I don't, I don't, I'm not a practicing.

Guest [00:08:40] Yeah.

Meg Abhau [00:08:41] Mormon. So you kind of lose your culture and your community and all of that. I wish there was more space for non believing Mormons because it is your people, it's your culture, it's your neighbors, it's your friends. And maybe that we could have like a discussion in the church building about still maintaining your community and your friendships, but have like, teach more honest history. Just be a little more open and honest about historical transparency.

Daniel Parkinson [00:09:16] Well, even just the way the Mormon community is set up socially, it creates a way of excluding anyone who's not fully active. Yeah, but it doesn't have to be that way.

Jake Abhau [00:09:29] It doesn't.

Guest [00:09:29] I don't.

Daniel Parkinson [00:09:30] They could, they could create a space and social life and a structure that it was inclusive of former believers. And I think it'd be wonderful if we could all feel as if we're part of this community, this Mormon community. It's not that way now, certainly. We certainly feel like, you know, when we're not an active member, you sort of. There's us and them, and anyone who's even a little bit inactive is already a them. That's kind of this sad reality with how the society works.

Meg Abhau [00:10:03] But, and as a whole, I mean, of course you have some really super awesome wards and. Yeah.

Daniel Parkinson [00:10:09] And exceptions to that.

Meg Abhau [00:10:10] San Francisco. Yeah, there's always exceptions to that. And everybody would probably like to believe that they are the most accepting ward ever. But I mean, as an outsider now, it's, it's really kind of hard, it's really sad to go through that. And I. I feel like I'm still the same person. I'm still Meg.

Meg Abhau [00:10:26] I still have all the same hopes and dreams. I still love to hold babies and hug trees, you know, or. You know, I feel like once my whole being and whole life was so wrapped up into my. The church, it was all encompassing. So when that was taken for me, and I don't feel like I walked away, I felt like it was a death. It was something that I had to mourn, and it was taken from me. And so I kind of had to do, like, a body check. Like, I almost physically checked. I was like, okay, okay. It's. You feel, like, jarred, and then you're.

Meg Abhau [00:11:02] And then you're like, okay. I still. I still love to read books. I still. You know, you have to kind of go through and. And see what. Who you still are. It feels like an identity crisis almost. But I'm pleasantly surprised to know that I'm still me and I'm still a good person, and I still have high, high morals, and I want good things for people. I just want to make the world better and do my little part. But, yeah, we are active in. Actively involved in LGBT rights and activism, especially, like, politically. In Arizona, I was very involved in fighting against SB 1062 when we were

Daniel Parkinson [00:11:46] trying to make an ill. Make it a protected right to discriminate against gay people, basically was what they were trying to do. Yeah.

Meg Abhau [00:11:53] Yeah. And I took John down to the courthouse that day when they were voting on it, because I thought we're. If I had a chance to speak, I'm gonna speak. And I wanted John to see that people will fight for his rights. That.

Daniel Parkinson [00:12:06] Yeah.

Meg Abhau [00:12:07] Because, I mean, essentially what it was saying is you could put a sign in your door saying, it's against my religious beliefs to serve gay people, so no gays allowed was just a vision in my head. And I just thought, you're gonna see that it's 2014, and this law is not going to pass. And I'm. And you're going to see that, and we're going to focus on the positive things in this. In this world, and that people were evolving, and we're changing. So I was expecting to have this very positive experience down at the courthouse, and it passed. And I was shocked. And I was just sitting there shocked, and I just looked at my son and I said, I.

Meg Abhau [00:12:42] I am so sorry. I'm so sorry. And he said, what does this mean? Like, I can't, like, go into a store if they don't. If they don't if they don't serve gay people. And what does that mean, Mom? And, you know, obviously, it's easier to hide if you're gay or not. You know, you can go into a store. You don't have to disclose that information.

Jake Abhau [00:13:01] Yeah.

Meg Abhau [00:13:01] I mean, we're not. We're not marked.

Jake Abhau [00:13:03] You could be evicted from your. From your home. Yeah.

Meg Abhau [00:13:07] You could lose your job.

Daniel Parkinson [00:13:09] There were medical professionals can refuse to

Meg Abhau [00:13:11] treat you like, I have an equality sticker the back of my car. If I was in a car accident, they would be well within the law to not treat me whether they needed.

Daniel Parkinson [00:13:20] Unfortunately, the law ended up getting vetoed by the.

Meg Abhau [00:13:22] Yes, the law was vetoed. But at that moment, I had to, like, look at my child and say, I'm so sorry. I was shocked. And he was like. He was shocked. He'd never been faced with anything like that before. And anybody that's faced with discrimination will say, it doesn't feel good. And I can't speak to that. You know, but it was terrible.

Daniel Parkinson [00:13:45] Sort of a jolt to him in a rude awakening, which is what. The discrimination a lot of these have faced.

Jake Abhau [00:13:52] It was really the first time that he really saw what we kind of been protecting him from for the longest time. Yeah, it was from the LDS Church initially, but now in, like, you know, now it was, like, political. I'm from the state that we had

Meg Abhau [00:14:04] chosen to move to, and the representative that wrote it was lds, so I don't know if his Mormon background lent itself to writing that bill. Yeah, I don't know. And I'm.

Daniel Parkinson [00:14:17] Was he also the same one who changed his mind? He actually. Because I know there was one LDS sponsor of the bill who did change his mind after actually having conversations.

Meg Abhau [00:14:28] Yeah.

Daniel Parkinson [00:14:28] And there's several.

Jake Abhau [00:14:29] Several of them changed their minds. I don't know who was lds.

Meg Abhau [00:14:32] Two were LDS and one was not.

Jake Abhau [00:14:34] I mean, I kind of want to at least point out, but it was

Meg Abhau [00:14:37] the person that wrote it. The person that wrote the bill never changed his mind. And he still. I think he still stands because Sat behind it. But the. The three that wish they had voted differently, they couldn't change their vote. But they did come out saying, I wish I'd voted differently.

Guest [00:14:49] Yeah.

Daniel Parkinson [00:14:50] Okay.

Meg Abhau [00:14:50] So we did.

Jake Abhau [00:14:51] We marched, which is great. I mean, that's hope for. That's all we. That's all we can ask for.

Meg Abhau [00:14:56] And we were interviewed on NBC, Al Jazeera America and Al Jazeera.

Guest [00:15:02] Yeah.

Daniel Parkinson [00:15:03] Who else do I know who was interviewed by Al Jazeera on that?

Meg Abhau [00:15:05] I know, I know. So yeah, we're very open, we're very vocal. We've, like, we aren't doing that to hurt the church or hurt anybody. We just want to help.

Daniel Parkinson [00:15:16] No, I saw your interview, and you really only talked about your desire to protect your gay son and any other gay person.

Meg Abhau [00:15:24] I mean, not that, like, gay people need my protection, and that's.

Daniel Parkinson [00:15:28] I don't feel gay people need parents who are fighting for their protection. So they do need your protection.

Meg Abhau [00:15:33] And I know one boy that's 14 years old that I would do anything for. There isn't anything that we wouldn't do for our son.

Responding to High-Profile Excommunications

Daniel Parkinson [00:15:40] Yeah, well, let's move on a little bit, Jake. I know that we've all been a little bit jolted by the excommunications have been going on. And I, you know, I'm just gonna point out that that's pretty unnerving for the LDS people who are trying to advocate for gay people and other Mormon parents who are still members, because when they see someone get excommunicated for expressing their ideas or hearing that they're losing their recommends, that makes it even harder for them to come on board when they're needed. We need the parents to be advocating for their kids. We need the allies.

Daniel Parkinson [00:16:23] And all of a sudden, there's something arisen that makes that scary, which is that someone who is doing that. We don't know all of why they're getting excommunicated, but it sure seems to have a lot to do with their advocating for changes. We know Kit Kelly, obviously that wasn't specifically about gays, but people are wondering if John De Linds, you know, he hasn't been excommunicated, but there's some concern that he might.

Jake Abhau [00:16:47] And

Daniel Parkinson [00:16:49] so, you know, I just want you to talk about what your response to that was and which we, you know, I know about, but I want you to explain it. And since it's controversial, I want to get a chance for you to kind of point out your rationale and your belief behind that.

Jake Abhau [00:17:06] Okay. Well, I should say from the very, very beginning, I mean, as soon as when we wrote, we wrote kind of a coming out letter for John where we came out everywhere, like on Facebook, and we did it all at once. But he didn't want to have to come out to this group of friends and then this set of family members and these people, like, over and over over the next six months. And we kind of debated how do we do this? And so we did it on Facebook one time. Everybody knew.

Jake Abhau [00:17:33] Since that day, especially early on, Meg was Like this too. Meg suddenly was put in this world of this mom that all these gay kids and gay adults could suddenly reach out to and connect with. And I think you represent. I think she represented a mom to all these people that didn't feel like their mom was supportive, you know, and so Meg was always like messaging people. And I was. At the beginning, I was kind of apprehensive to jump in and get involved. And it took me a little bit longer because I just wasn't sure what I wanted to do or how I wanted to get involved.

Jake Abhau [00:18:06] I wanted to help. And so more in the last four to five months for me, I've had so many people just because I. Well, I should go back and say I blog pretty much continuously and. And every time I write something, I get a lot of feedback, good and bad, and a lot of it is through private messages, through Facebook or whatnot. And over the last couple months, I've really started to hear people's stories and their pain, like we were talking about earlier, of these self loathing, shaming, suicidal thoughts and drug use and all kinds of stuff that has one thing they've all had in common.

Jake Abhau [00:18:49] It's all been generated from how they felt that they've been treated either by their church, you know, or their family or their friends, but all behind the, kind of. Behind the church. I mean, the church is like the belief system behind the church. And what the church as a culture is kind of seems to be pushing, it all stems from that. And so it's just to continue to watch this and see these people

Meg Abhau [00:19:16] suffer

Jake Abhau [00:19:17] for something that I no longer believe and which makes me feel like is no longer necessary. I just want to say, just. I just want to say, well, just don't believe it. You know, you can move on and be accepted. But I also know that the church is good for a lot of people and I wouldn't like push somebody away from it, you know, if it's. If it's good for you. But if it's not good for you, I like, you know, you can move on, you know, without it and you can be happy. And so I'm very careful. That's a.

Daniel Parkinson [00:19:44] Very careful. Sometimes I wish the church would just say that to the gay people. Say, you know, you're not welcome here, but go have a nice life somewhere else.

Daniel Parkinson [00:19:51] Yeah.

Jake Abhau [00:19:51] You know, sure, sure.

Daniel Parkinson [00:19:53] At least just if you're gonna kick us out, kick us out nicely and with the hope for the future.

Jake Abhau [00:19:58] Yeah. Leave your guilt and shame and go

Daniel Parkinson [00:20:01] and have a nice life and find A good, good moral system for yourself.

Jake Abhau [00:20:06] And it is, it's super complicated because it's inconsistent with the doctrines and the messages that are trying to teach. They're trying to be all encompassing and welcoming, but just. It's oil and water. Yeah. It just doesn't work. And so I've seen this a lot and especially John Dehlin for the last six, seven months to me has represented, I didn't know a lot about him, obviously does the Mormon Stories podcast and stuff and, and, but he's always represented one of the maybe most well known LDS LGBT activists. I mean, that's who he's been for me, you know, and I've gone and I see his status and see the TEDx talk that he did and everything I thought was phenomenal and I've shared that a million times and love it.

Jake Abhau [00:20:56] But for me, that's what he represents. And so when I was reading, when I was learning about the, I guess the threat of his excommunication, that hit home to me because my, my thought on that was, if you're going to excommunicate our, maybe our most outspoken, strongest, most influential LGBT activists within the church. Yeah, the ripple effect that's going to trickle down from all these people that I've been like messaging, you know, I mean, it's, it's like putting a muzzle on, talking about, you know, all things gay and all things like, you know, positive LGBT and how to, how to build a support, you know, within the church.

Jake Abhau [00:21:37] It's like muzzling it, it makes people want to go back into their shell, back into the closet. And it's, I mean, it just, and I, you know, I'm looking at 14, 15 year olds that may see that or read about this and be like, it's not safe to come out. It's not safe to be gay and to be Mormon, you know, and I've, and like I said, everything stems from one on one conversations I've had with, I mean, hundreds of people, you know, and it's, and like just read through, read through everybody else's pain and what they're going through. And it all stems from the church and now, and now where I'm at now being comfortable in my belief system, where I'm at with the church, which is out of the church.

Jake Abhau [00:22:19] Yeah, the, I see the church as the problem, you know, and I see the church as really wonderful for a lot of people and I have family members that are in the church and I would never want them to leave or ask them to leave or try to convince them to leave.

Jake Abhau [00:22:38] I mean, because I see that it's good for them, but for the people that it's not good for, which there's a lot of. It's such a frustrating thing because I'm seeing the results of this pain that they're causing. And so a friend of mine in Arizona and I, Micah Nicolaison, he started with these pending excommunications of Kate Kelly and John Dehlin. He kind of organized a mass resignation from the church and kind of put it on Facebook and had a lot of interest. Like, kind of right away he was trying to say, hey, this isn't right, you know, And I was kind of just kind of watching him, you know, and watching him create it.

Daniel Parkinson [00:23:27] And I think we should just clarify that. I don't know exactly what Micah's philosophy is, but I think a lot of people are resigning because this is saying, well, if there's not room for Kate and John in the church, there's really not room for me. I'm trying to stay, but this is just showing me that there's not. And this is what I can do. But maybe they want to do it in a way that will at least bring some attention. Because I don't think anyone would want to bring attention to their leaving the church unless they were hoping the church

Jake Abhau [00:23:54] would change without a purpose. Yeah.

Daniel Parkinson [00:23:57] I mean, it's not like you're motivated to stick it to the church.

Jake Abhau [00:24:01] I mean. No.

Daniel Parkinson [00:24:02] And so.

Jake Abhau [00:24:03] No. Well, I can speak to Mike. I mean, I. Obviously, I can't speak for Mike entirely, but I know somebody. He definitely. I mean, he's like a lot of us who have left the church or not believing feel somewhat.

Jake Abhau [00:24:15] We feel. I mean, it's hurtful. We feel a little bit betrayed, you know, because we feel like we didn't. Weren't quite given. We were given this kind of fairy tale vision of what the church was and kind of realized, okay, it's not exactly that.

Jake Abhau [00:24:27] And we feel a little betrayed. And some people are very angry, and there's all different kinds of stages. And I think Micah went through a part where he was. He was angry at the church. And then seeing other people kind of get kicked out of this church, especially when someone like Kate, who is a total believer and she wants to stay, you know, it's just. It's frustrating. It's like, okay, I feel betrayed, and that stinks for me, but I can kind of walk away. But for a believer and they're getting. I mean, I just can't imagine.

Daniel Parkinson [00:24:57] And these gay People who get excommunicated.

Jake Abhau [00:24:59] Yes.

Daniel Parkinson [00:25:00] They want to stay. Desperately.

Jake Abhau [00:25:01] Yes. And Mike is not pushed out. Mike is pro lgbt, but he's not an LGBT activist.

Daniel Parkinson [00:25:07] Yeah.

Jake Abhau [00:25:07] And so when he started this resignation, this was kind of his motivation was just to bring awareness to the situ of what was going on with the excommunications and how they felt like they were just like muzzles on people who may not fit into the cookie cutter mold. And so I looked at this, and I was reading it, and my thought was, what does that do? I mean, if you get 500, 1000. Even if you got a hundred thousand people to quietly resign from the 20 church, even loudly resigned, you can't really loudly resign. You can just. Because all you do is quietly resign. That's kind of the definition of it.

Meg Abhau [00:25:41] Yeah.

Jake Abhau [00:25:41] And to me, I'm like, well, that the church just got rid of a couple thousand people that were probably the troublemakers anyway. So I felt. I felt that the mass resignation wasn't going to be a powerful enough message.

Jake Abhau [00:25:54] And so I was reading. He was organizing on Facebook, and I was reading over it, and I had the thought, what if we did? How can we make a bigger message? And I thought, well, in the church, when you sin or you do something wrong, part of the repentance process is we're supposed to come forward and confess for certain levels of sin. Obviously, if they're going to excommunicate Kate Kelly for something that we're all doing, then obviously that is a confessable, a sin that needs to be confessed. And so I was kind of playing with this idea in my head saying, well, I should have a disciplinary council as well.

Jake Abhau [00:26:35] So should Micah. So should 8,000 other people, you know, 800,000 other people, you know, who are all. We all think the same thing. We're all doing the same thing. And it seems so inconsistent, you know, thinking back to a gay person in one city getting excommunicated for just being gay, you know, just having the thoughts or being ssa, as they say, and. And then another gay couple who is welcoming to their award and they're not excommunicated.

Daniel Parkinson [00:27:05] Yeah.

Jake Abhau [00:27:05] You know, and it just seems so inconsistent. And. And I feel like, how. How do we. How do we. How can we help make a difference and make a change to help bring consistency to acceptance, you know, if you will. And so I kind of have the idea is, what if we all request a disciplinary council? Because in a disciplinary council, I'll have an audience of 15 people, the stake president and the high councilman, and I look at it as I have a voice with 15 people where I can obviously express some of my concerns. And for me specifically, this is where Mike and I differ on this idea is for me, it's about helping the culture of the church to stop contributing to these suicidal thoughts that these kids are having and adults are having and everything.

Jake Abhau [00:27:56] And if I can sit in front of a council and I can tell one story about one person and that one person of the 15 people can kind of see it and they go back to their ward and there's a kid in their ward or adult in their ward and that makes a difference. And that person can be there for that, for that individual and to help them just be just a little bit less suicidal. And if it saves one life in my stake, multiply that by however many other people do the same kind of thing.

Jake Abhau [00:28:27] The amount of impact that I feel like we can make. This is what I'm thinking in my head. And I reached out to Micah and I kind of pitched him on the idea. And in less than 24 hours we were full throttle with this.

Jake Abhau [00:28:44] And we realized that at face value, this is going to be taken as these apostates kind of going up there causing problems. They just hate the church. They're trying to be problematic.

Daniel Parkinson [00:28:56] Yeah, I think some people look at it as being a very anti Mormon

Jake Abhau [00:28:58] sort of, and I can see how it would look that way, but it kind of depends. And I think there are probably people that may be involved in it that may treat it that way. Yeah, they want, they may just want to kind of cause problems, you know, but that's not why it exists. And Micah, Micah wants, like I do kind of wants to hold the church accountable for some of the stuff that they're doing. And this is, this is a way to do it. And certainly not for everybody. It's a very disciplinary council is a very personal thing and a personal choice to actually want to even go through.

Daniel Parkinson [00:29:32] Yeah.

Jake Abhau [00:29:33] You know, I mean, and I can't imagine as a non believing Mormon, that's not that big of a deal to me. You know, I'm definitely looking there more to kind of help educate, if I'm honest, and help try to make a change within the culture the best I can, but for a bleeding Mormon, that that's gonna do it. And I know many who are, that's my hat's off to them because they're putting everything on the line.

Daniel Parkinson [00:29:59] So are there some believing Mormons who are definitely. Who are pushed, who are joining that action?

Jake Abhau [00:30:04] Definitely. And those are the ones I kind of. I mean, I really. I don't know if I say I have a lot of respect for, but I'm just. I'm blown away by.

Daniel Parkinson [00:30:12] I have respect for them.

Guest [00:30:13] Yeah.

Daniel Parkinson [00:30:13] Putting things on the line for what they.

Meg Abhau [00:30:16] Yeah.

Jake Abhau [00:30:17] What they believe in. And. And so. And even I know the ordained women movement. I know they looked at it a little bit as not a really good reaction. I don't think Kate wanted anything to do with it, you know, and that's why I make it very clear that Kate has nothing to do with it. Neither does John, you know, but. But they are. But their activism and their being public figures is what has really prompted Mike and I to kind of act forward.

Daniel Parkinson [00:30:46] Yeah.

Jake Abhau [00:30:46] And do those.

Daniel Parkinson [00:30:47] Well, I'm assuming. I mean, I. Obviously, anyone who participates there might have different reasons for doing so, but when I look at it from the perspective I might have, I just. To me, I would. I think the excommunication procedure is problematic. And just the fact that they excommunicate people now in this day and age, it's. It's really for. I've never heard of anyone.

Daniel Parkinson [00:31:12] I mean, there's out there people shouting, yes, it was a loving thing. It brought me back to God. But no, most people get excommunicated, never come back to the church. It actually ends up being the last straw, and it ends up feeling very abusive and very traumatic. And when it's a gay person being excommunicated, there's really not a way back for them. And so from my viewpoint, I would like to see them stop excommunicating altogether. And I think the church could stop excommunications, and I think they could find another way of helping people repent or a different process. At least if someone wants to go through a process where they have a chance to be rebaptized, I think they can find a way for people to sign on if that's what they want, but not force it on people, not force people out.

Daniel Parkinson [00:32:00] So to me, it'd be a win if people aren't excommunicated. If none of the people who signed up for the Strangers in Zion. Cause if none of them get excommunicated, I go, hooray. You know, we have all these bishops who are seeing that they. These are people they want in their church, they want in their communities. They want people to be conversing, and that would be. You know, I wish they wouldn't have excommunicate, obviously. I hope they don't excommunicate, John. But to Me, it'd be. The biggest win would be if none of you guys get excommunicated. On the other hand.

Jake Abhau [00:32:34] Well, that. That's. And that's. I know that's one of Micah's big. Micah's with you on that. I think he's. He's very against the excommunication idea. I'm not a big fan of it, but even that has very little. That has little to do with my motivation. That's not my thing. But I recently did a interview for the Washington Post where they're asking me about that, and they're asking about John Dehlin, and they asked me if I thought he should be excommunicated. And I'm not an attorney, but if I were to look at a legal document, it seems like, okay, this, this. Yeah. But I completely disagree with the concept behind the excommunication.

Daniel Parkinson [00:33:12] Yeah.

Jake Abhau [00:33:12] I mean, John Dehlin has helped so many people in their faith crisis transitions. He's helped people in the. Stay in the church, help people kind of comfortably get out of the church, you know, and so much in the LGBT community. I would hate to see him be excommunicated over something where he's being a support to so many people.

Daniel Parkinson [00:33:33] Right.

Jake Abhau [00:33:33] I don't think he should be.

Daniel Parkinson [00:33:36] By the way you were quoted. Made it sound like you supported him.

Jake Abhau [00:33:39] Absolutely. And it was really. It was more of a. I was referencing the way that the church is handling things versus how John.

Daniel Parkinson [00:33:46] Or how. According to their rules.

Guest [00:33:48] Correct.

Jake Abhau [00:33:48] Correct. Their current rules. And that speaks to. What you were just saying is I would. I would like to see those changed, even though that's not my major platform. Yeah, here. But. So I have a.

Daniel Parkinson [00:34:01] But let's clarify. Your platform is really. You want to. You're feeling fed up with the mistreatment of gay people.

Jake Abhau [00:34:10] And I. I wrote in our blog a couple weeks ago, kind of an explanation of what we're talking about right now, of why I was part of starting this movement. And at the end of it, over the next. The next 24 hours, the people that kind of reached out to me privately and just. It was like I was suddenly like a. On the other end of a suicide hotline. And it was. And I'm not equipped. I'm not trained, you know, and I'm getting people just pouring their souls out to me because I think they suddenly realized that I'm a safe person, you know, because I'm obviously anti gay suicide, which seems like everybody should be, but. But obviously, I mean, people aren't safe. They don't feel comfortable talking with her.

Daniel Parkinson [00:34:59] And they tell that you're willing to go on the line and suffer some of the consequences. Obviously not in a full way, and you're not trying to keep your membership regardless. But you. But your statement is, is that you're willing to stand there and suffer the process that your gay brothers and sisters suffer when they're disciplined by the church.

Jake Abhau [00:35:17] And what one person told me is they. I mean, they wrote me a book I got their whole life pretty much. And they said that it was amazing to them that there was somebody out there who had never met them, you know, that was willing to basically put everything on the line for them in their life. You know, and it's just. And I'm reading stuff like that, and it's. I mean, that's not a demotivator. That's a motivator. You know, I'm like, if we can try to make a little bit of change somehow within the church, within the culture, I mean, you literally can save lives in the same.

Jake Abhau [00:35:51] The very next message I got was from somebody else who said that I wrote my blog on a Thursday, and they said. I wish. They said, there's somebody in our ward that I wish I could have shown your blog or your post to their parents last week because their son just killed themselves on Monday.

Jake Abhau [00:36:13] And I don't know if this would have made a difference or not, you know, but it all. I mean, it all matters. And I'm. And I'm reading this, and then I go on to our Strangers and Zion page, and people are, like, ripping me personally down for wanting to attack the church, you know, And I'm like, you don't get it. And that's fine that you don't get it. I mean, you. You know, I mean, you don't have to get it, you know, but I'm gonna do what I can do just to help stop this. And it's.

Meg Abhau [00:36:43] And it's not. Jake's not recommending everybody do this. Like, for me personally, a disciplinary council would feel abusive. I. I have no interest in going through a disciplinary council, and. And I support Jake in. In his efforts, of course, and he supports me. And I. I feel like I. I should kind of do that just to go. And plus, maybe it would give me even more empathy to the plight of our LGBT brothers and sisters. And to say, like, I've been excommunicated, too. It feels awful. It's not a good feeling. But I don't know. I don't know. I just can't. I couldn't I don't think that they would wish that I had a disciplinary council.

Daniel Parkinson [00:37:27] Yeah.

Meg Abhau [00:37:27] To feel what they feel. And no one deserves to be abused or to feel abused.

Daniel Parkinson [00:37:33] No.

Jake Abhau [00:37:33] And the hope is that. My hope is I go into it one. I really hope to have one. And my hope is that you go in there and I can have a conversation with 15 men in our stake that I've never met because we haven't gone to church and realize, wow, this steak's amazing. This is awesome. And then possibly get involved at some level and helping, you know, the gay community within that stake feel accepted. I mean, that would be. That is the ultimate outcome that you want, you know, And I think both

Daniel Parkinson [00:38:07] you and I know a lot of gay people who want to be in the church, and neither you nor I want to take the church away from them. What you and I both want is the church to be a place where they can be. Grow. Where they can be safe and grow and find love and have a nice life. And so to me, that's. I understand that people are gonna be frightened by this kind of action, but I don't hear you saying that you want to destroy the church. I hear you saying you want the church to do something that will make it a better church, and certainly for some people you love dearly, which is these Mormon gays that you know personally who want to be part of this church.

Meg Abhau [00:38:50] Right, exactly.

Daniel Parkinson [00:38:51] You're not telling them to run away from. Well, you kind of. I mean, we kind of are saying you gotta.

Jake Abhau [00:38:56] I mean, if I can be blunt. I mean, if I can be blunt. I mean, I don't. I'm not out here to destroy the church. I'm out here to stop the church from destroying gay people.

Daniel Parkinson [00:39:05] Yeah.

Jake Abhau [00:39:06] I mean, that's what. Because that's what it.

Meg Abhau [00:39:07] Yeah.

Jake Abhau [00:39:08] Or the lives of them. I'm sorry, but. And that's what. I mean, that's what it feels like.

Daniel Parkinson [00:39:11] And that's based on a lot of conversations you've had.

Jake Abhau [00:39:15] Oh, absolutely.

Daniel Parkinson [00:39:17] So, yeah.

Meg Abhau [00:39:19] Even if it destroyed one person's life? Well, every soul is important, you know? Well, it doesn't have to be hundreds, you know, but even if it were one, it should be enough to at least stop and think about this and think.

Jake Abhau [00:39:33] And suicide is the dramatic end, you know? But I mean, like you were saying earlier, I mean, being thrown out of your house, that needs to stop, you know, having these. So many of these kids, you know? And again, I say kids, but I mean, adults, you know, turn to drugs and turn to all kinds of things.

Daniel Parkinson [00:39:48] And let's remind people why they turn to drugs. They turn to drugs because they've been rejected and thrown out of the church. They're left without a moral foundation based on their reality and they're left floundering and they're left with no self esteem. And they turn to dangerous behaviors because they don't have a self esteem, they don't have a spiritual home. And so the drug abuse, it's hard to for some people say, well, why does the church cause drug abuse? Well, it causes drug abuse by kicking them out and leaving them floundering.

Jake Abhau [00:40:21] And even if the church doesn't, if the parents do, it's the whole culture that contributes to it.

Daniel Parkinson [00:40:25] One thing I wanted to just discuss a little though is that I think

Meg Abhau [00:40:31] that

Daniel Parkinson [00:40:34] I'm thinking about the parents. I'm nervous about the parents who might see John Dehlin get excommunicated and think, well, that's only because he supported gays. And I think it's a more complicated story than that. I think that it is that John is.

Daniel Parkinson [00:40:52] They're not. If some people aren't happy, they also has talked about other issues on his podcast, not just the gay issue. So it's. It's impossible to say if John is getting excommunicated for supporting gay issues. But I think I'm nervous that a lot of parents might be seeing that that's why he's getting excommunicated. So I'm worried about my parents who are hearing of people losing their recommends because they're supporting their gay child. I'm worried about the parents who are nervous about being there, you know, because the life of their child might depend on them being supportive. And if they're feeling like by being supportive, they're putting their membership at risk or their temple recommends at risk.

Daniel Parkinson [00:41:36] So I'm already nervous about that. And so I guess if I have a concern or if I've heard some other parents concerns about this, it's that they see this as one more polarizing thing that with the church, they don't react well to protests and criticism, as Kate Kelly shows, you know, they, they only, they work best with behind the scenes working. And you know, the, the idea is to work in a way that's more polite. And you know, as their publicist said, the church PR person said it's. She's got excommunicated beasts because of her tone. Now, I don't know if.

Meg Abhau [00:42:13] Yeah, it's true.

Daniel Parkinson [00:42:14] I mean, obviously listen to that podcast, but she did say that. And so people are Hearing are we doing with this? Right. Tone. So I guess I could see why parents might be nervous about something polarizing. But you're also telling me that you've got believing members who are putting themselves to this process. So this is not people trying to tear down the church, but this is people who are definitely putting something online to bring attention to the church leaders, because this is a message to them. Right. I mean, I'm not sure who else you would be talking to by doing this, but do you have some sort of response to that as to the. You know, the nervous parent who believes in the church? They. It's important to them. They don't want to get excommunicated. They do want to support their gay child.

Jake Abhau [00:43:04] You know, like, how to support your gay. I mean. Well, I mean. I mean, I think that's kind of what we're talking about. I mean, that's. That's the purpose of. I mean, that's the big thing is like. No, I don't think people don't know how to. People don't know how to love or maybe how to show love. I mean, or they.

Daniel Parkinson [00:43:27] Maybe they know, but the way they think. Maybe they think the church is telling them they can't love as they naturally want to or as a parent would. What seems right to them.

Meg Abhau [00:43:40] Right.

Jake Abhau [00:43:40] Well, I think people have a very hard time with, you know, with the term, you know, hate the sin, love the sinner. That term is so. It's confusing, you know, because I think people are. They think that. I think the way that people hate the sin is kind of accidentally not loving this, loving the sinner. What happens so many times is that the parent becomes more pushy or more throwing the church more down, like the throat of the gay kid.

Daniel Parkinson [00:44:10] Yeah.

Jake Abhau [00:44:10] You know, read your scriptures more, do this more. You know, all that. All that kid wants is for their mom just to come and say. Just put their arms around them and say, I love you. That's all they want. And I think. I think parents are worried that if they come or if their kid is like, I'm gay, and the mom comes and puts her arm down and says, I love you. The mom is worried that the kid is gonna think that they're okay with them being gay. Yeah, I'm sorry, that's not. That's not fair to say. But the mom would. That thing would endorse their.

Jake Abhau [00:44:40] If they decide to live a, quote, gay lifestyle, that the parent would be okay with that. You know, but all their. I mean, by saying I love you, they're Just saying, I love you. That's all these kids want to hear. And I say kids all the time. And because I've. There's a lot of people who are a lot older than me that I talk to all the time who talk about their relationship with their father and how they didn't, they didn't have that and they wish that, you know, they had more relationship that John and I have, you know, and it's weird because these are older, older men to me, you know, but they never had that.

Jake Abhau [00:45:12] And so it's, It's a weird dynamic to talk to so many different people who just have never really felt loved, like from their parents.

Parental Love and Staying Connected to Community

Guest [00:45:23] Yeah.

Meg Abhau [00:45:23] Interestingly enough, I just want to point out Caitlin Ryan, who heads up the Family Acceptance Project and she helped co write the. She just does the Family Acceptance Project. What she noticed from parents of Mormon families is that they feel like they are loving their kid and it hurts them to. That their child hurts. But this is how they show love. They are loving them by helping them overcome their. This. This, what they feel like may be an overcomeable issue. Yeah, it's a really interesting thing. I don't think that these parents don't love their kids. Yeah, yeah. But they feel like the way they're showing their love isn't healthy for the child.

Daniel Parkinson [00:46:06] Yeah.

Daniel Parkinson [00:46:06] I mean, you frame the perspective this way. They're told by the church that now if their child acts on their homosexual feelings, they're lost to God. Right. They're lost to the family. So therefore, if we love them, we need to keep them from acting on their homosexual feelings. Okay. So yeah, it's natural to arrive at, oh, we need to do whatever we can to prevent that. And so if you should never compare homosexuality to using drugs, but since it happens all the time, I'm just gonna do that. If you're using heroin, how do you best help a heroin user? Well, it's hard to say. You don't give them heroin.

Meg Abhau [00:46:41] Right.

Daniel Parkinson [00:46:43] But if you find. If you come to a point where you realize that nothing you do is gonna impact whether they use heroin or not, do you just love them? Do you kick them out? I mean, sometimes if you're giving them money and they're buying heroin with it, yeah, you don't. But. But should you stop talking to them or withdraw all love from them?

Daniel Parkinson [00:47:07] Now, the difference with gay people is that these measures don't take away their homosexuality. In fact, most people, most gay people, regardless, they end up choosing same sex relationships. And there's virtually no parents action that has kept someone from acting on their homosexuality. And so the only impact of throwing them out doing this tough love is that it leads them to suicide and leads them to be separate from family and makes it harder for them to ever reconcile with the church if that's what they want to do.

Daniel Parkinson [00:47:40] And so it's really, people have to realize that the tough love doesn't work there. It's never going to work. It never has worked. That you just have to let go of the judgment, let the gay person make their decision and love them. And so that's sort of my soapbox about that. But that's how it is different from drug and alcohol abuse or some other thing that in the eyes of you or your religion equals a big sin. Now, I hope that the church will kind of someday take a look at what a same sex marriage is. And what is, might we think, what's really so immoral about two guys or two women, you know, committing to each other?

Daniel Parkinson [00:48:26] You know, whether that is really so terrible, you know, as there seem to be. They don't say that right out, but they seem to imply that once in a while that that's what most Mormons believe. So hopefully that's going to evolve. But even if that doesn't evolve, you know, what about just not judging and loving? Because the fruits of that is that you don't have a dead son on your doorstep, you're not attending his funeral, you're not, you don't have him on the street, you don't have him using drugs, you don't have him infecting himself with HIV because of his very low self esteem. You don't have him hating God and hating the church. You have him anyway.

Meg Abhau [00:49:07] Yeah, if you could have some, some guidelines and just somebody to help you through life no matter what, no matter what your life choices are, no matter what you do in life, you know, everybody can benefit from love, guidance, nurturing, safety, stability, all of these things. It's not so it's interesting to me that you throw a kid out and then you're shocked that he manages to stumble into drugs and promiscuity and sexually transmitted diseases or, you know, whatever. It's, it's, it's, it's incredible. They're still developing youth that need our guidance and our love and our acceptance. And I just feel like we should put humans first. I just really stand by that.

What the Church Could Change Without Changing Doctrine

Daniel Parkinson [00:49:56] What do you feel like the church, what do you feel like the church should change without changing their doctrine? I mean, assuming that they're not going to change doctrine what can they change?

Jake Abhau [00:50:05] The biggest thing for me is I think you could have, I think you could include very gay specific topics to either address in general conference and manuals to target gay people in a way that would have them feel loved and feel accepted, you know, because right now all the, all the rhetoric is negative. It's all don't, don't, don't. There are no do's. And I think there needed to be. What do you do? How do you treat this gay individual that's coming to church? How do you show them that you love them? How do you do this?

Meg Abhau [00:50:39] Also, like maybe level the playing field so we allow holding hands and dating and you know, I mean, it's you, you're pretty. There's a lot of boundaries and when you're a teenager and you're dating, but maybe have the same standards for a gay person as there is for a straight person. Celibacy before marriage and you know, no heavy petting or whatever. All of the guidelines that the straight people so that these kids aren't other something wrong or, or completely unnatural and against God. So it's just, let's level the playing field. And I mean, I don't know.

Jake Abhau [00:51:18] That's the problem. Yeah. And then, but then what do you do without change?

Daniel Parkinson [00:51:22] That's complicated. Without the doctor. I wish that there could be discussion.

Jake Abhau [00:51:27] Go, go, go.

Daniel Parkinson [00:51:27] But that's one step, that's one step ahead.

Meg Abhau [00:51:31] Right, sorry, I'm 20 steps ahead.

Daniel Parkinson [00:51:35] Well, I mean, it doesn't, they don't need a doctrinal change to say, to tell the gay people, okay, you know, we aren't going to bless your marriage as a temple marriage, but we'd rather see you being monogamous. I don't think it requires doctrinal change to teach our gay youth that monogamy might be a better path to God for them within Mormonism than promiscuity, that they should take advantage of whatever is available to them. If that's gay marriage, if that's going to promote their monogamy, they should just take whatever the law allows them to live the most non promiscuous life possible. I don't, it doesn't seem like that should require gay. They don't. Even if they don't put it on equal footing with heterosexual marriage, which, you know, I'm not saying I agree with that, but I'm saying it would certainly

Meg Abhau [00:52:27] be

Daniel Parkinson [00:52:29] easier for you to raise your children if you could say to them, okay, I want you to be monogamous until. And then once you're of the right age, I want you to, you know, if you're more apparent saying, I want you to be true to one person. And even though we, you know, you'll never get married in the temple, at least we'll know you're living a safe and healthy lifestyle.

Jake Abhau [00:52:47] And I mean, you asked this question, and there's somebody that I know very, very well. I don't know if they want me to say who they are or not. So that's a very believing Mormon. And I asked this person that same question.

Jake Abhau [00:53:01] I said, what's your solution? I said, if you were the 12 or you were the prophet, And I said, well, if you were God, if you were our Heavenly Father, what would you do? If you could rewrite anything, how would you fix the gay problem, the gay issue, as far as how it fits into eternal plan within Mormon doctrine? And he goes, oh, it's simple.

Jake Abhau [00:53:25] He was like, it's really simple. I was like, oh, I'm like, waiting for this. I'm like, oh, I'm excited for this answer. And he goes, you don't make gay people. And the point was, he wasn't being anti gay. He was just saying it's a problem, it doesn't fit. He's like, you can't, you have to change doctrine. You have to change what's already there for it to fit.

Daniel Parkinson [00:53:49] Fit.

Jake Abhau [00:53:50] Because right now it doesn't, it doesn't make sense. And it's. And it's a problem. And it's. I think it's a problem that the church is facing right now.

Daniel Parkinson [00:53:55] Yeah.

Jake Abhau [00:53:57] You know, and. But it was, I was shocking to kind of hear him say that. But, but that was his, that was his solution. I was like, okay, I guess that would be a solution, you know, but. But he wasn't.

Daniel Parkinson [00:54:08] Obviously he's not God, so.

Jake Abhau [00:54:11] And of course he wasn't saying he didn't want gay people not to exist. He was just saying this is a major problem. You know, since we have gay people, then you have to change the doctrine as being like the only really way to, to make it work.

Daniel Parkinson [00:54:26] Well, let's not say change the doctrine, but let's put it in the terms of Mormons, which is it sort of evolve the doctrine by revelation. And I hope I don't. We don't have more gay people doing the ordained women thing, asking them to pray about it. But I sure hope the problem. Praying about it. But I do want to focus a little bit on the here now of the things that people can do within this doctrinal Structure. And you've talked about that they can show love, the wards can show love, that they can allow participation of their gay people who want to. I mean, the gay people are going.

Daniel Parkinson [00:55:01] Are willing to be there without equality. There are gay people attending, and they are totally accepting that they aren't going to have temple marriage for their gay marriages. And they're just asking for the crumbs, you know, but they're not. They're not even being given the crumbs.

Meg Abhau [00:55:18] Yeah.

Daniel Parkinson [00:55:19] So, I mean, I.

Jake Abhau [00:55:21] So, yeah, it comes back to me with the gate, with our gay youth, especially with what my state president said about church dances at the very beginning of what we're teaching our gay kids, whether. Whether they're out or not, because they're there and what we're teaching them by having these policies in place. It starts. The shaming starts young. And I think there's. There's got to be a way to safely navigate that. I would love if. If my state president had called me up proactively and said, hey, your son's going to be 14 in two months. I know he's. I understand he's gay. What. What do you want me. From me. To help me. These are our policies at the dances. What can I do to help that be better?

Guest [00:56:09] Yeah.

Jake Abhau [00:56:10] You know, if he'd made that proactive call, I don't know what I could have said, you know, because I know he's not gonna let him dance with other boys, you know, but if he'd given me the opportunity to have that conversation, that just would have been such a. Much more comfortable. Just a comfortable environment, and I wouldn't. I wouldn't have felt as nervous or scared to have John at church knowing there's a story. Presence that's like, I don't know what to do, but what. You tell me what to do, you know?

Guest [00:56:35] Yeah.

Jake Abhau [00:56:35] And then obviously, it's still his choice, but get input from me. Yeah.

Daniel Parkinson [00:56:40] At least be empathetic to what your son's going through and what you're doing

Jake Abhau [00:56:43] instead of just saying, oh, yeah, we're gonna know Temple recommended. We're gonna keep showing all 28 of you. He's just.

Daniel Parkinson [00:56:49] Well, he doesn't have to worry about the problem of what to do with John or you anymore, does he? That was. That solved his problem. That was.

Jake Abhau [00:56:56] I know.

Daniel Parkinson [00:56:57] I know.

Jake Abhau [00:56:57] You make it clear. We have. We know several gifts. Teens back there and who are in that state. It's still there. And it's. Yeah. And so what can we do? And I have. I have A close friend who. Well, somebody that I didn't know. Well, I knew his family, but he's. He's. He's sending a letter for, to request a disciplinary council in that stake. And so I'm really. I'm really curious to see kind of what happens there, you know? Yeah. And he's a very pro LGBT individual, so that's exciting to me a little bit to know, because I'm going to know a lot of these people. Yeah. And he. And he's a semi. He's a fringy kind of semi believer. He still believes a little.

Daniel Parkinson [00:57:41] Yeah.

Jake Abhau [00:57:41] But he's going to be in front of. I mean, hopefully he'll be in front of 15 people, and I'll probably know 10 of them.

Daniel Parkinson [00:57:46] Yeah.

Jake Abhau [00:57:46] You know, and they'll know us, you know, and they'll know John. And so hopefully that one little thing, to speak to strangers as I am, that one little thing could make a difference back in that stake and could help the three individuals that we know. Who are you with right now who are gay in that stake and who aren't out?

Guest [00:58:04] Yeah.

Jake Abhau [00:58:05] You know, it can help make their lives easier, so it's encouraging.

Encouragement for Parents of LGBT Children

Meg Abhau [00:58:12] I also just, you know, talking about that, but we kind of got sidetracked a little bit. But I was wanting to just kind of give a little bit of encouragement to. If a parent's watching this and kind of doesn't know how to handle this, that.

Meg Abhau [00:58:30] I always say this, but I always feel bad for people that don't have gay kids. Just find the joy. Just find the happiness. See that your child can be happy and find joy in that instead of being devastated about the child that you thought you had or the expectation that you have. Love the child that you have unconditionally, and your life will change in amazing ways. Jake and I, our family is closer than ever. We're so fortunate to have John, obviously, and our relationship is stronger.

Meg Abhau [00:59:04] It's interesting. Putting family first is what the church asks of you. And. And that's what we did. And, yes, it did take us away from the church, but we know, ironically

Jake Abhau [00:59:14] enough, but we also know plenty of parents of gay kids who are in the church, and they make that work, you know, so just because you love your gay kid, don't. That doesn't mean you're gonna come in and be like us.

Daniel Parkinson [00:59:27] And I'm working. And I'm working. You know, I'm interacting with lots of parents who are in the church, and I. And I've been really struck with how many parents are doing the right thing and how they. It's putting it. They feel troubled about it, but they are choosing the right thing for their kid. They're loving their kids unconditionally. They're choosing their health. They really want to see the church in a good light. They really want to stay active. They would never join Strangers in Zion.

Meg Abhau [00:59:52] Sure.

Daniel Parkinson [00:59:52] I don't want them to. I want them to stay in the church. I don't want them to have a faith crisis. Some of them are going to. I don't want them to. I wish that I didn't see that in their future. But a lot of them will come out. Some will come out on the side where you guys did. Others will come out on the side and stay. I really want to, you know, root for those who are able to stay. And I also. Not, not because I'm criticizing you, but because I really just want the church to change and some parents need to stay there in order to save the lives of some of the kids in their wards and stakes. And so I just hope that some of the people listening will be able to hear your story, but take from it that this isn't their inevitability.

Meg Abhau [01:00:38] Right, Exactly.

Jake Abhau [01:00:39] And we certainly support those parents of gay kids or gay relatives who want to stay in the church. I mean, we don't have to be in it to obviously show support completely.

Meg Abhau [01:00:51] Right. If you're going to stay, if you're going to go. Really what it all boils down to is just be there for your child and love them no matter what.

Jake Abhau [01:00:57] I can imagine what John would be like if we'd not been accepting of him right now.

Meg Abhau [01:01:02] I don't want that.

Daniel Parkinson [01:01:03] I just.

Jake Abhau [01:01:03] I don't want to think about that.

Meg Abhau [01:01:04] Nope.

Jake Abhau [01:01:05] He's such a happy kid and he's got everything going for him.

Meg Abhau [01:01:08] So happy, well adjusted.

Jake Abhau [01:01:10] I don't want him.

Meg Abhau [01:01:11] He's not spiraling wildly out of control.

Jake Abhau [01:01:14] Yeah. I don't want him sending messages like the ones that I get to somebody else.

Meg Abhau [01:01:18] Right.

Jake Abhau [01:01:19] You know, I mean, that's. That's like a horrible thought.

Meg Abhau [01:01:22] Oh, right.

Jake Abhau [01:01:23] If he couldn't reach to me and he's messaging somebody else because they happen to love their kid and he has. Wants that relationship with that person.

Meg Abhau [01:01:31] Yeah.

Jake Abhau [01:01:31] That's just sad.

Daniel Parkinson [01:01:33] And me too. I've just had. I just get messaged all the time from tortured souls. I just don't. I didn't have that experience myself, but I just saw so many. I just see so many people where they just spend so much of their time tortured.

Meg Abhau [01:01:45] Yeah.

Daniel Parkinson [01:01:46] Because they can't come to a place of happiness, and they can't use their religion to move forward. They try and they can.

Jake Abhau [01:01:59] Yeah. And I should say that. I mean, as many sad and frustrating messages and painful messages that I get, there are so many that are positive. I mean, so many. Your brother texted me yesterday.

Daniel Parkinson [01:02:10] My brother?

Jake Abhau [01:02:10] Yeah, Sam.

Daniel Parkinson [01:02:12] Okay.

Jake Abhau [01:02:15] Yeah. Your brother text me yesterday, and he had just. Just a really positive message. It was something I needed to hear, you know, and he had no idea. And, you know, but. But those kinds of things. I mean, him messaging me in a positive light helps me continue to want to do.

Daniel Parkinson [01:02:31] Yeah.

Jake Abhau [01:02:32] You know, what? Kind of like what we're doing. And so. And because if. If it was all negative, it would be really hard.

Daniel Parkinson [01:02:38] Yeah.

Jake Abhau [01:02:40] I want to disappear.

Daniel Parkinson [01:02:43] Well, I'm really glad we had a chance to bring this out. I, like I say, I know that this action is controversial. I know that when you're involved in activism that you're open to criticism from a lot of sides. And some people might totally disagree with you. For all I know, they might be right. For all I know, they might be wrong. I can't know which is the best way to impact change. You know, there's people who think we should do it all behind the scenes, do it nicely, and there's other people who think snow. We just have to be out there and be as loud and angry as we can.

Daniel Parkinson [01:03:18] And I just can't say which is right. So I just have to assume that we need all of the above. And I'm with you guys. One thing is that I'm not inside the church, but I really love Mormons, and I really want the gay Mormons. I see these young kids who are 25 years old. They're coming home from their missions. They're 22, 23, 24. They are so Mormon. They're these happy young men, and they just get hit over the head with a hammer, and they just. All they want is just to be.

Daniel Parkinson [01:03:54] Have their happy Mormon life, and they can't. And it's. They're not even given any chance of doing it, and they're starting to create a space. Affirmation is creating a great space for some of these guys. And they're able to sort of hang on to their Mormonism and hang on to their values and find an affirming place. But I just really. I want them to stay Mormon. I want them to be welcome there. I want the church to invite them. I want the church to be a wonderful, healthy place for them.

Daniel Parkinson [01:04:19] So I hope that you know, for better, for worse, that what I do, what you do, will help promote that for them. Even if it's not for me. If it's not for your son. Now, in Mormonism. Yeah.

Jake Abhau [01:04:34] We want what President Uchtdorf says. We want there to be a place for. We want people to be able to come back. Yeah. I mean, that's what they want to do. Yeah.

Daniel Parkinson [01:04:41] So I don't. I don't want to. So if your action, I, you know, if. Isn't to tear down the church, is to build up the gay people in the church or help the church, and you're seeing that. The change, really I'm fighting the way I advocate is from the bottom. I'm just trying to work with members under the sort of circumstances we have. You're. This kind of action is trying to communicate a message more to the top.

Jake Abhau [01:05:07] This is not something I would have. I mean, a month and a half ago, not something I ever thought I kind of be part of, you know, but it's just been this snowball of something. Something's got to be done bigger than what's being done, in my opinion.

Daniel Parkinson [01:05:22] And.

Jake Abhau [01:05:22] And it's something that I feel like I can do because I feel like I have to do something.

Daniel Parkinson [01:05:26] Yeah.

Daniel Parkinson [01:05:27] Well, let's watch how things unfold. I really appreciate you giving the time and to this interview and the other ones, and I hope that we can communicate something that makes sense to people or at least gives them understanding of where you're at if they don't agree with you or.

Meg Abhau [01:05:41] Thank you for giving us that opportunity.

Daniel Parkinson [01:05:47] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories podcast. To discuss this podcast with others, please check us out@mormonstories.org to join one of our 80 plus support communities across the globe. Click on the support communities tab@mormonstories.org to keep this podcast alive. Please consider a tax deductible donation today by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org a big thanks to the Saber Rattlers for providing the music for today's episode. The Mormon Stories logo was generously donated by studiocase.com come, come, ye saints no

Guest [01:06:22] toil nor labor fear but with joy wend your way though hard to you this journey may appear Grace shall be as your day Tis better far for us to strive Our useless cares from us to dread do the Sanjo, your hearts will swell. Oh, all is well, all is well.

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