Recently a documentary series entitled “An Inconvenient Faith” appeared on YouTube, produced by Robert Reynolds and Jim Bennett (among others). The documentary seeks to promote progressive Mormonism within LDS church membership. The documentary is groundbreaking in the sense that it includes both Ex-Mormons (e.g. Jeremy Runnells, Sandra Tanner, John Dehlin, Bill Reel) and faithful Mormon scholars (e.g. Richard Bushman, Terryl & Fiona Givens, Patrick Mason). The series has also received a considerable amount of excitement and critique on the Internet.
Please join Mormon Stories for a livestream as a panel (John Dehlin, Bishop Beau Oyler, Julie Hanks, and Jana Spangler) react to the documentary. We welcome your participation as well!
Link to documentary: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZ0nfqDWsl-EILHfhgzJWuQ
Episode Transcript
Host: John Dehlin · Co-hosts: Beau Oyler, Jana Spangler · Guest: Julie Hanks
This transcript is machine-generated and lightly edited for readability. The audio is authoritative. Please excuse occasional errors in names and spelling.
Introducing the Panel and the Documentary
John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am your host for today, John Dehlin. It is September 4, 2025, and today we are here to review a new Mormon themed documentary that has made big waves in the faithful Mormon world, the progressive Mormon world, and even the ex Mormon world. It's a documentary called An Inconvenient Faith.
John Dehlin [00:00:30] It was released only to YouTube and it's a documentary made primarily by my dear friend Robert Reynolds, who I'll talk about in a minute. But it's basically, if I had to describe it, it's a documentary that covers like nine topics and its goal is to help encourage Mormons who are questioning their faith, Latter Day Saints who are questioning their faith, to consider what I would call progressive or nuanced Mormonism as a way to possibly stay engaged in or active in the church instead of thinking you have to either be orthodox and orthoprax, or basically leave and become ex Mormon. And without giving away any spoilers, what I think is game changing about this documentary is that it is the first known piece of media that I've ever seen created by relatively faithful, engaged Mormons that includes and shows respect for ex Mormon or critical voices.
John Dehlin [00:01:43] So we're talking about a documentary that has Jeremy Runnels, Sandra Tanner, Bill Real, myself and other critics of the church. And it also has Richard Bushman, Terrell Givens, Fiona Givens, Patrick Mason and lots of other faithful voices. It's got David Bacavoy. Anyway, I would say like 80% of the people there have been on Mormon stories at one point or another as well. But, but anyway, it's been reviewed a few times now. Steven Pineaker covered it on Mormon Book Review, Patrick Mason and Maxine were on that along with Jenna, Radio Free Mormon and Bill Real covered it.
John Dehlin [00:02:23] I was on that one. There were some fun sparks between me and RFM and Bill that we can talk about today if we want. But also check out that treatment. But this is Mormon Stories treatment. And. And so we have a panel we've assembled, as far as I'm concerned, an all star panel of people to discuss the documentary. We have back in Mormon Story Studio, the Julie Hanks. Hey, Julie.
Julie Hanks [00:02:48] Hello.
John Dehlin [00:02:49] Thanks for joining. How have you been?
Julie Hanks [00:02:51] So good.
John Dehlin [00:02:52] You've got a glow.
Julie Hanks [00:02:53] Well, thank you.
John Dehlin [00:02:56] So good to have you.
Julie Hanks [00:02:57] Thank you.
John Dehlin [00:02:58] We also have back Bishop Bo, Bo Burnham. Hey, Bo.
Beau Oyler [00:03:02] Hey, what's up? Good to see you again, John. Happy to be back in the studio.
John Dehlin [00:03:06] Super fun to have you. And your hair's grown out.
Beau Oyler [00:03:08] It's finally grown Back. Yeah. I think the last time I was on Mormon Stories, I had just burned off. So two years later, it's back, and
John Dehlin [00:03:15] I call you Bishop Bow, because once a bishop, always a bishop, always a bishop. You were Carolyn Pearson's bishop. I was in Walnut Creek area.
Beau Oyler [00:03:23] Yep. Still am.
John Dehlin [00:03:25] Julie's freaking out over there.
Beau Oyler [00:03:28] Yeah. I was Carolyn's bishop. And actually a number of my friends from our ward are in the documentary, and they showed our chapter chapel. So in chapter six, when it talks about women in the church, it zooms in on a chapel, and that was my chapel.
John Dehlin [00:03:43] That's super fun.
Jana Spangler [00:03:44] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:03:44] All right, cool. Well, thanks for coming, Bo. It's always good to have you. And if that weren't enough, back to Mormon Stories studio in her beautiful, shiny red hair, Janice Bengler.
Jana Spangler [00:04:00] Hello.
John Dehlin [00:04:01] Welcome back, Jenna.
Jana Spangler [00:04:03] Thank you. I'm so happy to be back.
John Dehlin [00:04:04] You're in the Margi chair. I'm in the Margi chair.
Jana Spangler [00:04:08] I am channeling Margi, and that is always a fabulous energy to be taking on.
John Dehlin [00:04:13] And it's been a while. How long has it been since you did? Bo was like, did Jan ever do her Mormon Stories interview? I'm like, she did.
Jana Spangler [00:04:19] I did. I want to say that was.
John Dehlin [00:04:21] It's like, right? Yeah.
Jana Spangler [00:04:23] I want to say it was early 21.
John Dehlin [00:04:25] Yeah.
Jana Spangler [00:04:25] So it's been a few years since I've been here.
John Dehlin [00:04:27] Yeah.
Jana Spangler [00:04:27] I've done some panels before that, but it's been a while.
John Dehlin [00:04:31] And Jana and I were both actually in the documentary. Julie, you weren't in the documentary. Did Robert reach out to you? No, I'm surprised Robert didn't reach out to you. But anyway, Jan and I were both in the interview, and then Bo approached me about doing this episode. Bo has produced many of our panels in the past. The Bishop's Panel, the Relief Study, Presidents panel, Young Single Adults panel. This is Beau's idea. So all credit to you. Beautiful.
Beau Oyler [00:04:57] I think it's kind of cool because we have two people who were in it, right. And you have the behind the scenes and the voice of, you know, the whole experience in. And then two people who. I mean, before it launched, I didn't even know this was happening at all. Like, all of a sudden, Reddit's filled with screenshots and people commenting. And then my wife's aunt Jerily Renshaw posted it to Facebook, and I'm like, well, if Jerry's watching it, I'm watching it. And so my wife and I watched it all within 24 hours. Like, we burned through the whole thing. And I Just thought it'd be kind of cool to have like two voices that were in it and then two voices who were out and just got to view it and kind of respond to it from the outside.
John Dehlin [00:05:32] Beautiful. All right, well, what I was thinking is since I assume that many people who are joining us, we do have a live stream audience. So we are hopeful that Julia can star any of the comments that she finds particularly valuable or useful or interesting. She can star those. So we could potentially incorporate live stream comments or feedback. Also, we really appreciate super chats. That's a way to help fund what we do. So if you give a super chat donation through YouTube with your question or comment, we for sure will. Will incorporate it. But either way, we welcome our live stream audience. What I thought we'd do, since many of our livestream audience, I'm assuming, haven't actually seen the documentary, I thought we might just show a couple clips to give a sense for it.
John Dehlin [00:06:20] But before we do, I will just say a little bit of background about it. So I met Robert Reynolds. So Robert Reynolds, I hope he's. I think he's okay with me mentioning this. He is the. He's an attorney. He's a member of this not Nevada, Las Vegas, Nevada, sort of Mormon elite family, the Reynolds family. The dad, the grandpa is an attorney. I've met Grandpa Reynolds and his wife at a Sundance Film Festival. Dan Reynolds is one of their sons. He's the lead singer for Imagine Dragons.
John Dehlin [00:06:57] But Robert Reynolds is an entertainment attorney who manages the Killers. So he manages Brandon Flowers and the Killers. Brandon Flowers appears in this documentary. I don't know if they actually show his name or what he does, but that's Robert. Robert also has helped out, I think, with Imagine Dragons and Neon Trees. But Robert's been a dear friend of mine for quite some time. And I met Robert Reynolds when I was at Love Loud. So when Dan Reynolds reached out to me to be in an HBO documentary about the LGBT suicide crisis that was going on, and this would have been 2015, 2016 timeframe, right around my excommunication.
John Dehlin [00:07:43] I had made friends with Tyler Glenn of Neon Trees, and eventually they did this documentary with Dan Reynolds that was in hbo, came out on HBO called Believer. So Dan Reynolds, Tyler Glenn, me, others. Then the Love Loud concert series came out of that, that Stephanie Sorensen of Encircle kind of teamed up with Imagine Dragons and Neon Trees to do. That's when I met Robert Reynolds. And it was at that point that Robert and I became friends. Robert was in the church while lots of people he was watching leave the church. And I always got a sense that Robert, he didn't have an agenda of pressuring people to stay or guilting people in the stay, in my opinion.
John Dehlin [00:08:29] Robert is clearly a progressive Mormon, but he's also sincere and he's also faithful. And he just has this question of is it true that you have to leave the church once you know the truth claims, that just by knowing the truth claims you pretty much have to leave. And Robert's view is, no, you don't have to. But there haven't been enough voices speaking up about that. But also, Robert wanted to make sure and have a film that presented at least did its best to present the difficult issues so that at least if they were going to be analyzed and responded to, they could have been given fair consideration.
John Dehlin [00:09:09] So originally, I think this documentary was meant to be a multi hour, multi part series where it'd be like Book of Abraham. Talk about all the details of it and then give faithful, apologetic responses and then do the same thing with Book of Mormon historicity and do the same thing with, I don't know, you know, pictured polygamy.
John Dehlin [00:09:30] That's kind of how it was originally envisioned. And then to do some of the social issues as well. I think over time, Robert realized that maybe that was going to be too much money or too much work. This is a project of passion that Robert funded, I think of his own pocketbook.
John Dehlin [00:09:48] This is not a lot of conspiracy theories have been that like, the church funded this or there's some shadow funders. My understanding is Robert paid for most, if not all of this documentary just out of the goodness of his heart and a desire to have Mormons who are questioning not feel like they have to throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak. And so not only did he want to cover historical issues, but also race and women's issues and LGBT issues, so. And ultimately prophetic fallibility. So long story short, this project ended up being a lot shorter than it was going to be.
John Dehlin [00:10:32] It ended up treating faith issues and truth claims issues a lot more briefly than I think it was originally going to be envisioned. And ultimately I think his idea was to shop it around to Netflix and Hulu and HBO and try and get this in Sundance and film festivals. That was scuttled as well. And what it ended up being is like a nine part series of like, what, 20 minutes each episode.
John Dehlin [00:11:01] And I think he would agree that he had to reduce the critical arguments ultimately in the final product. And I think he definitely gives more, more Time to the apologists than the critics, which isn't necessarily bad. You know, we could talk about if people felt like their comments may or may not have been taken out of context, but that was kind of the. The project, and we're going to be digging into it today. That's kind of the overview, and I think it might make sense. So why don't we just play a couple clips from it to start with, just to kind of give people a feel for what the documentary is trying to do.
John Dehlin [00:11:46] And then we'll have our panel give some initial impressions, if that's okay. So this is the YouTube page. You know, it's at An Inconvenient Faith on YouTube, again, there's nine videos. There's a description of what this thing is about and what it says is a new docu series exploring challenges faced by members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, commonly known as Mormons. Over the years, we have interviewed scholars, authors, historians, and experts both inside and outside the church to examine these issues with full candor. Our goal is to, one, foster better understanding and empathy for those who struggle with these challenges, which I think is groundbreaking for a faithful person to do, and then secondly, present honest and ethical approaches to remaining faithful and active while staying faithfully informed.
Background and Origins of An Inconvenient Faith
John Dehlin [00:12:46] This project has no formal affiliation with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And then Robert. Originally, I believe Robert's intent was to not have his name associated with this. I don't think that's because he was ashamed of it or afraid of it. I think it was because he didn't want people getting distracted by the substance by, you know, by trying to figure out whether he was in or out or what his background or motives might have been. But ultimately, immediately people were having conspiracy theories about who produced this thing and who funded it, and. And so he ended up making a little statement.
John Dehlin [00:13:27] Hi, I'm Robert Reynolds. I directed and produced An Inconvenient Faith in the past. I've written Unstuck, published by Deseret Book, and produced Believer on HBO about LGBT issues and the church. So Robert was also, I guess, a producer of Believer as well.
John Dehlin [00:13:47] And so without any further ado, maybe I'll just play a couple clips from it. We'll give some initial reactions, and then we'll dig into some of the more interesting details. So here is a clip or two from the documentary An Inconvenient Faith.
Overall Impressions and First Reactions
John Dehlin [00:14:06] There's a particular orientation to the Mormon Church now where it goes something to the effect of if you know the facts, if you Read the CES letter, for example. Then there's no way you can stay Mormon because the evidence is just too glaring.
John Dehlin [00:14:22] There's too much contrary evidence to the truth claims to actually stay Mormon. And I'm actually really sympathetic to that perspective. I, I don't refute it absolutely. I think it hinges on how we define what it means to be Mormon. If, if I'm Mormon, because I believe that there are historical, unalterable truths and claims that if they were ever, if they were ever disclaimed or proven to be false, then I would just be without a religion. I would just be out of luck.
John Dehlin [00:14:56] I don't personally define Mormonism that way. And I think there are more and more people who recognize that Mormonism isn't just about books and buildings and it's not even about truth claims per se. I've, I've heard it spoken from the pulpit. Mormonism, in a sense, is who we are and it's who we're becoming.
John Dehlin [00:15:20] And we can profess certain beliefs. Someone can say, I believe that the Book of Mormon is a historical artifact. And someone else could say, I don't believe that. But that belief won't give you a whole lot of information about the person's heart and their soul and how much they've been able to transcend their own selfish impulses and love their neighbor.
Julie Hanks [00:15:43] We covenant.
John Dehlin [00:15:45] Okay, so let's, let's dive in. That was obviously Thomas McConkey. He's like a grand nephew, I think, of Bruce R. McConkey as I understand it. But I think his dad may have been one of the founders of Kurt McConkey Law Firm. His grandpa. Okay, okay.
Beau Oyler [00:16:02] So I mean, and his other grandpa is Joseph Worthland. So he's got Worthland on one side and McConkey on the other side.
Jana Spangler [00:16:09] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:16:10] Yeah. So as Mormonism often goes, lots of connections in the family. So let's go ahead and go around the room and get an initial take, not just to Thomas's clip, but to this project overall. Julie, you want to start?
Julie Hanks [00:16:28] Yeah. I have really mixed feelings about it. On one hand, I really appreciate the generous giving, giving voice to the critics. I think that's groundbreaking. So many people have vilified you. John Bill, rfm.
Jana Spangler [00:16:47] Right.
Julie Hanks [00:16:47] And presenting all of you in a favorable light is just fantastic. And I think it softens the us versus them, which I think is really important to, to soften that, that binary. So I thought that was good. There were some parts where I'm like, I, I wish with, with the apologists that I wish that were true. But that's not what the church teaches or what it is. Like, I would like to believe that, but that's not what it is. And so I kind of felt that quite a bit during it, like that,
John Dehlin [00:17:22] that the Mormonism they're representing is not
Julie Hanks [00:17:24] actually what is taught by the leaders. And I think what, what Thomas was saying in this clip is, you know, we are the church. Yes. And it's also the leaders. And you can't just say, well, we can define it however we want because there are people who are defining what it means. And so I. There's a little. I just thought. I. Yeah, I can't buy that all the way, Even though I really have wanted to.
John Dehlin [00:17:48] Yeah. And yet I'm agreeing with you. And isn't it revolutionary for a member of the church, in the church, over the Internet, opening that topic or that can of worms of what it means to be Mormon and feeling like he do. I want to say courageous or bold to even say, let's have a discussion about what it means to be Mormon. And I'm going to take the first stab at it. Like, is that fair?
Julie Hanks [00:18:23] Yeah, that's. And that's one of the good things about it is that it opens up that dialogue and it, it paints everyone as equal instead of the. The bad guys, the good guys. It's like everyone has their perspective and these are all intelligent, well informed people who've come to different conclusions. So that is. That's groundbreaking.
John Dehlin [00:18:41] Yeah. And Julie, tell me if you agree. It's not just Bill and me and Sandra and Jeremy. Jeremy Reynolds and others who have been denigrated for being apostates.
Julie Hanks [00:18:52] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:18:53] It's just anyone who leaves the church. Right, right. Like it's, It's a bigger. The bigger problem than just this. The people that are kind of influenced.
Julie Hanks [00:19:01] Well known. Exactly. Yeah. In families, there's people are cut off or, or dismissed or not listened to, not validated. And so I think this makes it groundbreaking in that it gives people more room to maybe be curious about people who leave the church.
John Dehlin [00:19:18] Yeah. As I think about it, it kind of humanizes people that have left the church.
Julie Hanks [00:19:22] Yes. I love how. And especially Jeremy. I don't know Jeremy personally. He's the one. I don't know. But it humanize. He's such a, you know, the CES letter guy, and it just humanize. It's like he's sincere. He's just a person trying to figure this out like everybody else. So I, I really did appreciate that about, about the show.
John Dehlin [00:19:42] Beautiful. All right. Thanks, Julie. Bo.
Beau Oyler [00:19:45] Yeah, so I, I loved it. I mean, after spending quite a bit of time in the Faith Matters community and working with them, it, to me, it was. I devoured it all, all nine episodes within 24 hours and loved it. And there were times when I was brought to tears where I was crying and, you know, goosebumps. And there were times where tears. Because I felt so much watching it and, and going back to places that I've been through, through my faith journey for the last few years. Right. And just going back in and internalizing again and then rechecking.
Julie Hanks [00:20:20] Right.
Beau Oyler [00:20:20] And there were multiple times where I turned to my wife and one of us would say something to the effect of like, did we leave too early? Are we, did we make the right decision? Oh, my gosh. And then to contrast that, there were times where I wanted to throw my chair across the room out of frustration and disbelief that they peddled some type of crap that has been on the block for so long that, you know, I was like, you got to be kidding me. They just allowed him to say that and that didn't get edited or, you know, a time when like, Bill Real would say something as a, you know, a post bishop and it was like he, you know, it's.
Beau Oyler [00:21:00] Make a comment. And then I know, because I know Bill Real well enough to know that there was a, however and then a follow up or a second part to his sentence that got edited out. And so there are, and I know probably 75, 80% of the people in the, in the film and love many of them. And so I'm so grateful that there is a. I mean, can you imagine like five years ago even. Can you imagine a table being set where all of these voices were invited to the dinner, all with equal voice? Would not have happened. Could not have happened five years ago.
Beau Oyler [00:21:34] And now here it is in a nine part series where for the most part everybody's presented as equals. The titles don't say Excommunicated Member. They don't say the Cora Horror of our Day. Right, right.
John Dehlin [00:21:47] Mormon Voldemort. Right.
Beau Oyler [00:21:51] What do they do? They just give air to a full spectrum of Mormonism and I absolutely love that.
Julie Hanks [00:21:58] A full spectrum, though. No, I don't. Yeah, I have to disagree with that. I, I think it. The orthodox voice was not voiced as strongly as it exists in the church.
Beau Oyler [00:22:12] That's. That's very true. Yeah, that's a really good point.
Julie Hanks [00:22:14] It was represented a little bit, but I kept going. But that's not what the church teaches.
Beau Oyler [00:22:19] That's Very true.
Julie Hanks [00:22:20] I wish it was that way, but it's not. So that's true.
Beau Oyler [00:22:22] That's true. So I guess the most polarized voices. Right. So, so completely orthodox or employed by the church. All in, all the way to. They also didn't have people who are like absolute antagonists. They didn't have people who are just like burn it down, you know, and there's a lot of those voices too. And so the most polarized voices weren't. It was more of the middle way, which is the Mormon as I'm. I've been in for 10 years. And so I really appreciated that, you know, that spectrum of voices.
Julie Hanks [00:22:50] Got it.
Beau Oyler [00:22:51] It's a good point.
John Dehlin [00:22:52] Yeah. And I, I'm guessing, and I invited Jim and Robert to be on the show today. It looks like Jim's there, so we're going to bring, maybe bring Jim on here and there to have him provide feedback. But I guess I'll just say that, my guess is that would be out of scope to give voice to the orthodox because haven't they gotten plenty of attention over the past 200 years of
Beau Oyler [00:23:20] Mormonism and that's what we're trying to break down as the orthodoxy.
Jana Spangler [00:23:24] Yeah, they've had their say.
John Dehlin [00:23:25] Yeah, yeah.
Beau Oyler [00:23:26] And also there were lots of clips in it too. Like there they were represented through clips from Bednar to past prophets to, you know, so there was orthodox voice via the leaders.
Jana Spangler [00:23:36] Yes.
Julie Hanks [00:23:37] Yeah, that's true.
Jana Spangler [00:23:38] They did appear.
John Dehlin [00:23:39] Yeah. So anyway. Yeah. So kind of made for questioning and ex Mormons as the target.
Beau Oyler [00:23:47] Yeah. I mean, to me at the. By chapter nine, it was very clear how it swayed, you know, what the bias was. But I was so grateful. It was almost like, here's an instruction manual of how to be a progressive, nuanced member of the church. Beautiful.
Jana Spangler [00:24:02] Well, and I could make an argument that it was the way in which it is for an orthodox person is in way of listening to the other voices and maybe getting some empathy for it because there was enough, just enough people telling their story or their, their feelings about things that hopefully that can open that up as well for an orthodox audience.
John Dehlin [00:24:22] Yeah.
Beau Oyler [00:24:23] I mean, when I texted it out to friends, I was like, I wish that this would be every, like bring back the third hour fifth Sunday for one time. And, and everybody watch this for this third hour fifth Sunday special. Like, watch this. Like open, open your perspective. And it was such a soft opening. I love. That's what I loved about it.
Critical and Generous Voices in the Film
Julie Hanks [00:24:43] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:24:44] Jan, I want to give you a chance to give whatever reactions, early reactions
Jana Spangler [00:24:48] you want yeah, so I, I'm, I'm kind of similar to what's already been said. I have some mixed emotions about it and also I just want to presence what a, what a big thing that Robert was doing with this. And I experienced in the same way, John. I, I only talked to him a couple of times. He, he approached me to do this project after a session that I did at Sunstone and he just introduced himself and told me what he was doing and then we, we filmed one day. So that, that's the extent of my, my dealing with him. But yes, I experience him as a very sincere, very open minded, very curious, very like, you know, a person who really wants us to listen to each other, who really wants to, to face things head on, face hard things head on and see if there's a way to work through it and be in conversation together.
Jana Spangler [00:25:47] And I agree it's groundbreaking to have all of this happen in the same place. And I think that it's a nearly impossible task. It's like, I think there will be very few that will be fully satisfied with this project. Right, of course. And I think that's why it took so long. I mean, I filmed six years ago for this, so.
John Dehlin [00:26:06] Me too.
Jana Spangler [00:26:07] So when I hear, when I hear you say Bo, you know, five years ago this couldn't happen. It was happening. It was, he was, he was doing it. But I think a project like this is so daunting because no one is going to be happy with the balance of who's being. And as I read Commentary online, I'm noticing it's kind of a Rorschach test for where you are because people who are in, are really upset. I've seen, seen some really, you know, strong apologists for the Church who are, are not happy with this because it's, it's not faithful. It's giving too much airtime to. And too much empathy to certain groups of people.
Jana Spangler [00:26:45] Which blows my mind. Right. And, and then people who, yeah. Who have left and are in pain and they're like, well, this is, this isn't, this isn't what the Church says. And, and they're not giving enough of my voice of what, you know, the depth of what I feel for this. This is, I mean, you cannot do a treatment of the Book of Mormon in 15 minutes and like cover it. All right, So I think that, that it's a great first stab at this. It's a, I think its strength is to be a conversation opener. Like, can we have this be the beginning of a conversation?
Jana Spangler [00:27:24] Can we have the courage. Can we. To face it. Can we have the courage to face everyone in the room, not just retreat to our echo chambers, as we love to do, not just around the church, but also around politics, around everything else that's going on in our society right now. Can we lean in and can we actually deal with the reality of what all of us are dealing with in our lives?
John Dehlin [00:27:46] Beautiful. Yeah. Love it. All right, so one thing I forgot to mention was that it's. I talked to Robert. Robert called me. I, I was telling Bo that Robert called me the day after I appeared on the Bill real Radio Free Mormon episode. And we talked about how he felt about our discussion of it. Super gracious. And he reminded me, and he told me that he probably had seven different editors on this project over six or seven years. And one of the editors was Jim Bennett.
John Dehlin [00:28:25] Many of you might not know Jim Bennett. I don't even know. We have had Jim Bennett on Mormon stories. We had multiple hours of Jim Bennett on Mormon stories. But he is the son of former, the late, former U.S. senator Bob Bennett. Great guy. He wrote a response to Jeremy Runnels CES letter that the church really loved and I think the church still loves because I think the church would say that, that Jim Bennett's response to the CES letter is probably their favorite and in their view most effective response to date. So at some point, Robert and Jim connected up and Jim helped with the editing.
John Dehlin [00:29:08] And so I invited Jim to come on and Jim's here. And so what we're going to do is kind of do our panel thing for a while and then have Jim come on to just kind of clarify or share a perspective and then we'll, we'll ping pong back and forth. So. Jim, Jim Bennett, welcome. Thank you. Welcome to the show. And any quick introductory thoughts or responses to what you've heard so far? Well, I, I jumped in a little late. I didn't hear. I, it's okay. Just whatever you did here, you said at the beginning. No, I, I think that the responses, I think were, were, are wonderful in terms of, of the reactions here.
John Dehlin [00:29:49] And, and I, and I'm very grateful that all of you marvelous panelists are giving grace to the reality that this isn't going to satisfy everyone, that it isn't, you know, it's such a difficult balance to strike and, and a lot of people are going to be frustrated with it and it's not going to be perfect.
John Dehlin [00:30:11] And, and we sort of recognize that, but I think all three of you sort of recognize the intent here and are giving grace to that. And I, and I very much appreciate that. The one point that I thought was really interesting, I, I, I was interviewed by the Salt Lake Tribune's Mormon Land podcast and that that was when Peggy Fletcher Stack admitted to the world that she's related to me me, we've been keeping that a secret for, for quite some time.
John Dehlin [00:30:43] But, but she asked the same question about orthodox members, said why aren't there any orthodox members in this? And my answer there, well, first of all, I said I, I consider myself sort of an orthodox member, but I, that's not the right answer.
John Dehlin [00:31:01] My answer to a large degree was that orthodox members aren't looking for this. There are so many of them that go through their lives without even considering a lot of these issues or worrying about a lot of these issues that they just, they don't see a need for it.
John Dehlin [00:31:20] And I think the people who do see a need for it are really responding strongly to it. The, the criticism we get more is from the people who, who've left who insist that we're not showing their experience with, to, to the extent that we should and that we've biased the answers more in favor of people staying. And I think to some degree there, that's a valid criticism.
John Dehlin [00:31:51] I, I, I do though, really hope that they recognize how important it is, particularly to Robert, that we demonstrate kindness and empathy for people who leave, that there isn't any sort of official kind of church production or anything else that really does that. The, the us versus them narrative is just way too strong out there and we're trying to diffuse that. And I think that there are some people who have left that don't see it that way.
John Dehlin [00:32:27] There was one guy on Reddit who kept telling me, you've turned all of the critics into either apologists or antagonists. And I went, well, I, I really don't think that's, I, I don't think that's a fair criticism. But, but you know, you're not going to satisfy everyone. I, I know what the intent was here and I certainly know what Robert was trying to do. And you know, you, you try to strike a balance and sometimes you succeed and sometimes you don't.
John Dehlin [00:32:59] I loved everything he said. The only thing that I was wondering about is your self description as an orthodox Mormon. I have no idea what you mean by that, knowing. Well, I don't know. I, I know you sing for the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. I do, I do sing for the Tabernacle Choir.
John Dehlin [00:33:17] I, I'm not going to be singing this week. I, I, I called in sick on Sunday, and then they have a new protocol that if you're sick, you have to stay out for another week or something. And so I'm not going to be singing this week, which makes me kind of sad. But I guess I, I, I peg you as a, as a progressive Mormon.
John Dehlin [00:33:38] Yeah, I, I mean, I think that's probably fair. Well, the thing is, so when I wrote my CES letter reply and John, I had this conversation with you after I did these, you know, was on Mormon stories the first time around that time, I was invited down to what was then Book of Mormon Central and now Scripture central, and they said, can we take you to lunch? And I went, okay, yeah, I'd love a free lunch. That sounds great.
John Dehlin [00:34:08] And I went down there and met with them. And they said they had met with the secretary of the quorum of the 12, and they had research that showed how many people the CES letter had driven out of the church.
John Dehlin [00:34:23] And they said, and we'll share that with you. And they never did. I don't know what the numbers are, but they said they're, they're pretty significant. And they said they also have research as to what mitigates the effect of the CES letter and that the only thing that is successful was JIM BENNETT CES LETTER REPLY and I was kind of floored by that. And John, you and I were having a conversation between Tapings, and I said, I really don't understand why that is.
John Dehlin [00:34:51] And you said, I do. I said, I can tell you why that is. It's because you're willing to admit the church has been wrong, and the church is never willing to admit that. And the only way that you can deal with a lot of these issues is to just simply accept the fact that the church has been wrong.
John Dehlin [00:35:08] And the church in abstract is willing to admit that and accept that. They'll say, yes, we've made mistakes. Dieter Uchtdorf will stand up and say, we've simply made mistakes. And then you come back to them and say, well, what mistakes? And was this a mistake?
John Dehlin [00:35:24] And that's when, that's when it all falls apart. They're not willing to admit to any specificity of mistakes. They're willing to admit in principle that mistakes are possible. But one of the reasons why, I mean, I'm very much of the opinion that if you can create, if you can build a faith incorporating the idea of a fallible church and fallible prophets and fallible leaders, that a lot of these Problems really do go away the minute you can say, well, the reason why the priesthood ban was in place is because Brigham Young was a racist and this was a terrible mistake.
John Dehlin [00:36:03] Makes it so much. You don't have to go through all of the mental gymnastics that everybody talks about. Yeah. And that are increasingly less and less convincing. Beautiful. So I think a couple people wanted to comment. Julie, did you have a comment on that? Did I. Hi, Julie, by the way.
Julie Hanks [00:36:23] Hi.
John Dehlin [00:36:23] I'm a huge Julie Hanks fan. I thought I saw you guys react. Did somebody have a reaction to Jim or. No. Oh, okay, okay, okay. Sorry, I misread the panel, Jim. That's all right. That's good. That's great. That's a. That's great perspective, Jim, and we're really glad to have you. So thanks for being willing to. To jump in and share. Is it okay if we come to you here and there? Sure. So. So I'm. I have a quick call I have to make at 3 o', clock, so we'll just. When we see you, we'll bring you on when we need it. Okay.
Julie Hanks [00:36:54] So.
John Dehlin [00:36:55] But I'll be watching because I. I think these panelists are just absolutely wonderful. All right. And. And I think you're having a great discussion. What about the host, Jim? I think it's the most wonderful of all. No, that's not true. Now you. Now you've gone too far. We'll see you back. Thanks so much. Sounds good. Thank you. Okay, so I'm just being silly. All right, so let's go ahead and dive in and we'll play some clips. Clips. And then we'll react to it. The first is a quote about what Zion is. This is particularly interesting to me because I'm reading John Turner's book about Joseph Smith, and Zion had a very specific meaning once upon a time. But let's hear. Let's hear Lindsay Hansen Park's view. On what? On what? Zionists.
Jana Spangler [00:37:48] We covenant to build up the kingdom of God. That's what Zion is. And maybe instead of building Zion as a destination, Zion has to be the journey. Zion is a moment when we're sitting with someone who disagrees with us about faith and we find a way to have a conversation that meets everybody where they're at and doesn't try to change them. I think for me, that's where I'm at now is I'm not interested in rescuing people. I'm not interested in changing people. I'm just interested in sitting with them, you know?
John Dehlin [00:38:24] All right, reactions.
Julie Hanks [00:38:25] That's one of my favorite quotes in the whole, I'm just like, amen, Lindsay. Yeah, you go, girl.
John Dehlin [00:38:31] Why?
Julie Hanks [00:38:32] Because that would solve so many of the problems facing families in the church, right? If you could sit together, have differences, not try to change, not try to bring them back or pull them out or I think it would just be so healing for the church as a whole, for families and individuals to see Zion as that process of being with each other and being connected, not being the same, not necessarily conformity, because we value in the church conformity so highly and often more than we value connection 100%.
Jana Spangler [00:39:07] I think that we talk about unity because I think there's this element of unity in, in the idea of Zion that we mistake unity with uniformity. And I don't think that's what it is. I don't, I don't. I don't think that was ever what it was supposed to be. I mean, if you look at just the world creation, it there it is innate. Diversity is innate in creation. It is obvious that if there's a God who created this, this God loves diversity and that we've got to find a unity within our diversity because. But it's us who gets a little bit squeamish around diversity. Like, oh my gosh, no, we've got a.
Jana Spangler [00:39:53] That's not safe, that doesn't feel okay. And there's a discomfort in sitting with people who are not like you. And that is a skill that we have not even begun to start talking about what that looks like to make space for other people.
John Dehlin [00:40:09] And I think there's a good reason for that. I think whether it's a question or doubter who wants to talk to his family about the problems with the truth claims, that becomes almost a virus that can be contagious. Or if you accept a same sex married gay person into your ward and you start going, whoa, their love's a lot like my heterosexual love. And they're really nice and kind. Just that familiarity and love can infect you to question the church's doctrines around gay people and same sex marriage or a feminist. If you start associating with a feminist, heaven forbid, you might start really believing that women and men should totally be equal even in the church.
John Dehlin [00:40:52] And so I think church members come by their suspicion of anyone who's not on, who's not orthodox. I think they, not only do they come by it honestly, but I think that's bizarrely one of the most dangerous things about this documentary in particular, because by showing an empathetic side or even showing Empathy to questioners and. Or black people or women or LGBT people, or even suggesting that leaders can be imperfect. Aren't they potentially spreading the virus? Bo, I'll give you a chance to respond.
Beau Oyler [00:41:30] Yeah, absolutely, they are. That's why it's amazing to hear people, faithful people, say the things that they're saying and say the things out loud that so many of us have felt and thought for years. I think one of the beauties of the documentary is that they're. They're speaking to a need that we all have, and that is to see people and to be seen. If we can just see and be seen, like, at the end of the day, like, if we can just bring that into our families, into our friends, into our community circles and not fear that, then empathy can come in and do its work. And that's really what. You know, I think that's why they positioned that challenge or that statement at the beginning, because the Zion, this process of Zion, really is to be able to see and be seen.
Jana Spangler [00:42:15] Yeah. I mean. Yeah. Is it a virus? Sure. Like this. It does infect you. But here's the thing. It's going on anyway.
Julie Hanks [00:42:23] Yeah.
Jana Spangler [00:42:24] I mean, in every family that has someone come out as lgbt, for everyone who starts to have doubts, we. We're not stopping the virus by not listening to these people. It is there. I mean, yeah, sure. It. Are we holding it back? Sure. But I don't know that we're getting to our goals.
Jana Spangler [00:42:46] We're not getting to what the invitation, the deep invitation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is about. It's hard work, and you have to be willing to face what is there. You know, I came on here in 2021 to talk about contemplative Mormonism. And if I could sum up what that is, it's. Are we contemplation? Contemplation is meeting as much reality as we can bear.
Jana Spangler [00:43:10] That is a different thing than apologetics, and I think that's something that I haven't seen talked about in this. About this documentary, and we don't talk about it much in our culture, which is that there is a way to stay in this church that isn't apologetic.
Jana Spangler [00:43:26] It was actually the whole reason I wanted to come on and tell my story is because I do not consider myself an apologist. I have zero interest in apologetics. It actually bothers me. I don't want to do all the.
Jana Spangler [00:43:39] The, you know, the mental gymnastics and everything that it takes to just make it go away. And I'm also not for ignoring things and just Saying, oh, it doesn't matter. Throw it on the shelf. Just be faithful. That doesn't work. And not everybody in this documentary is in the same place, and they're not even talking from the same place. Some people are doing apologetics, and some people are not.
Jana Spangler [00:44:05] And there is this strain of that, that is willing to meet each other, that really does want to build Zion, that doesn't want to. That wants to meet the criticisms, wants to wrestle with the criticisms, with the critiques, wants to give fair voice to all of it and give fair voice to the orthodox and where they're coming from and see what we can build together.
John Dehlin [00:44:30] Yeah, I'll. I'll admit, and Julie, you may feel similarly, that when I started Mormon Stories, I had this naive hope or this hope that at some point the church could mature enough to tolerate diverse. Diverse voices and even critics, if, you know, they were always given with the intent of alleviating suffering or helping the church heal and grow. And maybe there was a point where the church just wasn't ready for that. But I think I share that vision that you mentioned, Janet. But also I think that Christ lays down, which is leave the 99, go after the 1. Let's face everything, and we're all going to grow kind of like Lindsay says, like Zion, if we can just face everything. Do you relate to that, Julie?
Julie Hanks [00:45:21] Yeah, I relate to that. Yeah. And it's. Yeah, I have less hope of that right now, which is sad to me, you know? Cause it's. Yeah, but that's my hope for the church, that as a group, it can mature like mature adults, you know, and recognize, like Jim was saying, recognize the mistakes. Just own it. Like, that's what we expect adults to do, is like, oh, my gosh, I'm so sor. That was a mistake. What can I do to repair it? I don't think that's too much to ask an organization to do and. And to take care of the least of these. You know, that's. We talk about it, but we don't do it very well.
Beau Oyler [00:46:06] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:46:08] Well, in that. In that sense, this documentary is kind of a step in the right direction, I think. Let's go and go to the next clip. It's funny. Yeah. Because my first instinct goes towards defending the inconveniences of it. That. That is, in my understanding of religion, the nature of religion, to push people deeper into thinking about their beliefs and the doctrines and the practices and the culture of the church.
Beau Oyler [00:46:32] One of the things we have to do, it seems to me, is to be able to live in paradox, to live in tension, live with a certain amount of uncertainty. I think that's what it means to live by faith. Any expectations that everything needs to be tied up in a nice, neat bow violates the very principle of agency that the gospel plan is founded in.
John Dehlin [00:46:55] The world is not clean and pure and black and white. It is by necessity confusing and contradictory at times because that's how we grow in the church. We see doubt as a sin, doubt as a virtue.
Jana Spangler [00:47:09] We need to have doubt in order to have freedom. So we need to be more willing to lean into that discomfort and not just run away from it or think that the Spirit has fled us when we're experiencing some. Some growing pains. If we only understood that some of these questions of faith lead to great growth in our connection with the divine.
John Dehlin [00:47:33] The gospel has to be picked up
Beau Oyler [00:47:35] and lived all over again from the inside out by every generation that comes. It's never enough to just inherit the father forms of religion that worked for our parents in their times, in their context. Part of what it means for the church to be not just true, but
John Dehlin [00:47:52] living is that we are perpetually faced
Beau Oyler [00:47:55] with the task of having to start again.
John Dehlin [00:48:01] Whoa.
Beau Oyler [00:48:01] I mean, that was the moment that I was speaking to earlier, Right. You get to that moment, I'm like, goosebumps. I'm starting to tear up. And it's just like, I love all of those people, and I love what they said. That's exactly, exactly what it is. Right? That's it.
John Dehlin [00:48:13] Does that. I mean, does that make you want to go back?
Beau Oyler [00:48:16] It definitely made me, like, the first time I watched it, and then even the second time, it definitely made me think, like, no, that is it. That is the journey. That is the journey of Mormonism through our own spiritual journey. Using the church as a vehicle for that.
John Dehlin [00:48:31] Yeah.
Beau Oyler [00:48:31] If there was a clean period there, I think that's fine. But there's a big fat comma instead of a period. And the comma is that nobody's asking it to be a clean, you know, little bow, like, tie a bow, and it's all clean and perfect and infallible. Nobody's asking for infallible people. Like, nobody's expecting that. And we sometimes tend to use that language of like, oh, well, you're expecting perfection. It's like, oh, no, I'm not expecting perfection. Oh, my gosh, no, no, no.
Julie Hanks [00:49:03] Just decent decency.
Jana Spangler [00:49:05] Yeah.
Julie Hanks [00:49:06] You know, not perfection.
Beau Oyler [00:49:07] Exactly.
Julie Hanks [00:49:08] I hate when people say that.
John Dehlin [00:49:09] So you're saying it's kind of a straw man. It is a straw man, critics want perfection.
Julie Hanks [00:49:14] Nobody wants perfection.
Beau Oyler [00:49:15] No, we're not expecting that.
John Dehlin [00:49:17] It's just like apologize when you do something wrong.
Julie Hanks [00:49:20] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:49:20] Just be a grown up.
Beau Oyler [00:49:21] Yes.
Jana Spangler [00:49:22] And that's it. We're not five years old.
Julie Hanks [00:49:24] Right.
Jana Spangler [00:49:24] And sometimes we act as if we are five years old.
Julie Hanks [00:49:27] Right.
Jana Spangler [00:49:27] When we have these conversations.
Beau Oyler [00:49:29] Yes, very much so. And the whole structure of the church, the way that it's set up, being a, you know, we're in a. It's a bottom up. Right. We're on the bottom and they're top down. And there is no conversation. Right. It's. There just isn't. And so if we look at it like a marriage, like, who's the couple that are the podcasters? You're all friends with them? Valerie.
Julie Hanks [00:49:48] Valerie.
Beau Oyler [00:49:50] I love them. Right. I remember a couple years ago when they started talking about what if we saw the church as a relationship? And I'm like, well, then this is the worst relationship of my life. If we look at it that way. Right. This is an abusive relationship.
Julie Hanks [00:50:01] Immature.
Jana Spangler [00:50:03] It's very immature.
Beau Oyler [00:50:04] Very. And so. And so, as much as I love that end of the first chapter and I'm just like, oh, my gosh, like, I love this. I'm all, yeah, sign me back up. I'm also just like, wait a second, though. Like, there's a comma and a very important sentence that we need to address.
Jana Spangler [00:50:20] Well, and that's the tension. Right. Like, I, I'm drawn to that, too. I want. Who doesn't want this? And, you know, you'll. You'll hear this, like, well, I would love that kind of Mormonism if I could have it. Well, yeah, I'd say, sign me up for your church. And that's the thing. We do yearn for it. And no, we're not there.
Beau Oyler [00:50:37] No.
Jana Spangler [00:50:37] And that is the problem. Like, and I think we need places where it can be that. Now, in some places in the church, if you're in a very specific word, if you're in a place where your specific leaders are going to be more open to that kind of thing, you can. We are able, bottom up, to build some of those spaces. Sometimes it's within the church building on Sundays. Sometimes it's in little groups outside. Sometimes it's in the hall, sometimes it's in the parking lot. We're able to do that, but we are not able, not everywhere. And it's really, really sad and painful when you have this vision and you think, oh, I want to go do this and build this. It is not that easy. It's Painful. You're in the minority. And it. It's. It's soul killing. It's.
Julie Hanks [00:51:26] I'm so sad. Yeah. Because, like, I want that church to be. To exist, but that's not what the leaders want, you know? And so it does exist. I have a sister who's still in the church who's like, my word is true. I have the true ward. Right. Because there's that. That love and acceptance and. And variety. But it's like, that's not what it is. Yeah. And it's hard to keep hoping for something that isn't happening.
John Dehlin [00:51:58] How would you describe how it is, Julie? And thanks for being vulnerable.
Julie Hanks [00:52:01] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:52:02] It's not that. What is it in your. I mean, if you can share.
Julie Hanks [00:52:05] It's a lot. It's a lot less mature. It feels. The church as an organization feels like an early teenager. Like, I'm gonna. You know, I have to be right or I have to like it just. There's not the maturity of one truth. Right.
John Dehlin [00:52:21] I know the truth.
Julie Hanks [00:52:22] Very binary, very black and white. I'm right. I'm not gonna apologize. No, you're. You're the jerk. I'm not. You know, I'm a good friend. You're not a good friend. And I'm right. You're wrong. It just sometimes feels like that.
John Dehlin [00:52:34] And I'm out of here, you know?
Jana Spangler [00:52:36] Yeah.
Julie Hanks [00:52:37] I'm out of here.
John Dehlin [00:52:37] My life.
Julie Hanks [00:52:38] Right, Right. Like, fine. We're not friends anymore, you know? Go away, John. Yeah. And it's such a beautiful vision that I've had for so long, and just to not have it come to fruition is so, so sad.
Jana Spangler [00:52:58] It's heartbreaking. Yeah. It's like. It's like me coming to you and saying, I'm in pain. I need help with this thing.
John Dehlin [00:53:06] And.
Jana Spangler [00:53:06] And the. As a friend, I come to you and say, well, let me just tell you why you're wrong. Let me just tell you why you shouldn't even be asking that question.
Julie Hanks [00:53:13] Right.
Jana Spangler [00:53:13] Like that. That is not ministry. That's. That's not even the gospel.
Julie Hanks [00:53:19] Yeah.
Beau Oyler [00:53:20] Yeah. So I love this vision for it. Right. And that's what you get when you go to a Faith Matters or whatever. It's like, yes, like, let's do this. Let's be the change. And a lot of it, as we will get into it, a lot of it is like, stay so you can be the change. I remember When I was 31, 32, I was a new bishop, totally overwhelmed. Carolyn Pearson was in my ward, and she called me and said, hey, could we have some time together. I'm like, yeah, of course. And so she took me on a hike, and we just went on a very simple hike together, a couple hours up in the fields.
Beau Oyler [00:53:50] She blessed the field. She blessed me. We spoke to Heavenly Mother, like, it was the most beautiful, like, and here, you know, she's training me. I didn't know this at the time, but she's training me. She's inviting me to think bigger and to think outside of, like, the orthodoxy that I had adopted, you know, in my young adult life.
Beau Oyler [00:54:10] And so that. That was all beautiful. And in the Berkeley, in the Oakland stake that I was in, we pushed the needle. Like, it's like the mission of the stake is to show where the church could be in 15 years. You got the Berkeley ward, Oakland ward. It's like, it was wonderful.
Beau Oyler [00:54:27] So to contrast that and Julie, to build on what you were saying, like, what actually is the church, the progressive, healthy relationship and conversations are mostly happening outside of the church. Once you get in the church, like Patrick Mason said in one of his clips, he talks about how at church, being at church has a different purpose. Right. He didn't say it's confirmation bias. He didn't go into that. But it is true. Because as soon as you start bringing these, this conversation into the four walls of a chapel, what happened with me was I got blacklisted. I couldn't speak in church anymore. I got released from a calling.
Beau Oyler [00:55:05] I was everything. Every time I then got a new calling a couple years later, and every time I was teaching, the entire bishopric was in the room to make sure that I was being monitored. The stake president was showing up when I was asked to speak in church, like, so you think. And then being called into the bishop saying, hey, specifically, two members of our ward have come to me saying, you are destroying their testimony by the comments that you're making in elders quorum or in high priests or in Sunday school. So that's kind of like on the outside, it's like, yes, let's explore this.
Beau Oyler [00:55:36] This is wonderful. But let's not forget that on the inside, the purpose of church is confirmation bias. The purpose of church is to all remind each other that we have the one and only true church and truth out there.
Jana Spangler [00:55:50] And whenever I hear leaders say this, I just want to call BS that you are actually damaging that person's testimony. Because the person who is going and telling on them, on you, to them, their testimony is just fine.
Beau Oyler [00:56:04] Yep.
Jana Spangler [00:56:05] They are uncomfortable and they're worried about everybody else.
Beau Oyler [00:56:07] Yep.
Jana Spangler [00:56:08] You know, but the truth Is that in my experience, in all the people that I've talked to, I've talked to hundreds, thousands, probably at this point, of people who start to have questions, the voices that end up getting excommunicated, often, you know, the people who are. Are saying, hey, let's talk about the issues. And that are making all of the orthodox people super uncomfortable.
Jana Spangler [00:56:32] They are actually helping the people who are vulnerable have a longer Runway to see if they want to stay in the church, if that is a natural fit for them or not. They are saying, oh, my gosh, someone is in this church and they're saying that thing. The only voices I've ever heard say that thing were out of the church. I thought that was the only path. Yeah. So voices like that are actually keeping people in. And it is. It just blows my mind. But the leadership does not see this. They do not see that these people are not taking people out.
Beau Oyler [00:57:03] No, not at all. And proof of that is the comment about the CES letter. Right. That conversation that you had, like, the church has all this data and proof of how the CES letter is leading people out of the church. The CES letter has led zero people out of the church. Zero. It's incapable of leading people out of the church. It's a PDF. Okay. What's leading people out of the church is when they process the content of the CES letter, AKA real Mormon history, then they go, this is different than the church I am a member of. Hold on. And when they process that, it can lead them out of the church. But that's not what the church does.
John Dehlin [00:57:45] Julie, you were nodding when Jana was talking about. Do you want to?
Julie Hanks [00:57:48] Well, I was just thinking of Jacob Hanson always telling me that I'm leading people out of the church. And the feedback that I've gotten is that like, oh, thank you for helping me stay. I realize it's not black and white or I can disagree with something, or, yeah, it. Women aren't equal, and let's do something about it. You know, So I was just going, yeah, that's very familiar to me.
Jana Spangler [00:58:06] Absolutely.
Julie Hanks [00:58:07] People say about me, and there is
Jana Spangler [00:58:08] a faction of people that not only would maybe vilify the. The Johnson bill. Real and RFM kind of people, but they actually think that the progressive Mormon. Worse is worse. Yeah. We are wolves in sheep's clothing.
Julie Hanks [00:58:24] Oh, yeah.
Jana Spangler [00:58:26] And. And we are so insidiously dangerous.
John Dehlin [00:58:32] Yeah. Amen. And our Julia, when. When there was a time where you and I were texting and I was sharing with you how. When I was giving my Liberal elders, quorum lessons. Beau back in the mid-2000s, and the Bishop was getting complaints. And then the podcast started, and then I was getting called in. I would bring the bishop hundreds of letters from early Mormon stories. Listeners saying, john's helping me stay, John's helping me stay. And they just. They can't wrap their brain around that idea. And when they excommunicate us, tens of thousands leave as a result. That's just facts.
Jana Spangler [00:59:09] I mean, that. That I saw that with Natasha's. You know, I had front row seat for Natasha's excommunication, and there were thousands of voices saying, she has helped me stay. And. And thousands of professional. There were 700 therapists, LDS therapists who had. Who had signed and things saying that there's got to be a distinction here between our professional lives and our personal discipleship. And none of that mattered. None of that mattered.
Julie Hanks [00:59:37] In healthy family systems, the. The kid who's acting out is the one who has the most to teach the family. And I see, like, John, you're, like, going, hey, hey, we're not dealing with doubt. Or Natasha's like, hey, sexual shame is a problem. Or Sam Young, hey, these worthiness interviews, bad idea. You know, and it's like, in healthy families, the parents go, wow, we really need. Yeah, we could really work on that. You know, that. Thank you for that input. Yeah, like, that can help us heal. And so my vision has always been to be to have a church where it's like, we thank the John de Linds. We, like, thank you for calling this to our attention. We can grow because of you.
Jana Spangler [01:00:22] Absolutely.
Julie Hanks [01:00:23] And that would just. That's like my ideal church where we. We thank people who call out the problems because we can become better and closer to Zion.
John Dehlin [01:00:32] So this. This highlights a little bit of attention, constructive tension that Bill Real and I had when I was on his show with rfm, because I think especially for people that either were traumatized by their time in the church or especially people that felt like they were the kicked out or excommunicated or whatever, or people that were raised super orthodox and then just felt like they just bought into the binary, that it's all or nothing, because that's what they were taught. So then they're like, well, I can't believe all the yes, so it's got to be no. They get really angry when they hear liberal or progressive Mormons talking about carving out a new path or a new approach to Mormonism or a nuanced Mormonism.
John Dehlin [01:01:18] And on the one hand, all of you are Saying that's not the church today. And I think that's kind of what Bill Real was also trying to say. But. But for me, that I didn't like. I didn't like that position.
John Dehlin [01:01:33] That because the orthodox line has. Has always been the one that the church leaders advocate for or because Brigham or Joseph taught it one way that that's what it has to mean to be Mormon. What I think a lot of some, I'll say some more angry sometimes or damaged ex Mormons want to say is sorry Patrick Mason, sorry Thomas McConkey, sorry Janice Bengler, or sorry, Maxine Hanks. That's not the Mormonism I was taught. That's not what the Brethren would sanction.
John Dehlin [01:02:12] So, no, that's not a legitimate way to be Mormon. And I don't for some reason. And maybe it's because I'm 20 years or 30 years down this road. I really hate that. I hate. I don't think that's fair. I don't think that's how humans work. I don't think that's how organizations work. And I don't think that's how any organization gets better. To say it all has to be exactly what the leaders say or what it originally was. And it can't ever evolve because there's all sorts of companies and universities and countries and marriages and people who just got better, but they got better because they were allowed to evolve.
John Dehlin [01:02:49] So what do you guys think about that argument that, sorry, that's not mormonism. So Thomas McConkey or Patrick Mason. That can't be Mormonism because that's not the Mormonism I was raised with. Or that's not what the Brethren say over the pulpit. It. Who wants to take that?
Jana Spangler [01:03:04] I would say yes, and they're not wrong. It's. But it is also. There's more to it. There's. It's boundary maintenance. Whether you're coming from the orthodox side or you're coming from where Bill and RFM are coming from. And I watched that, that exchange. You know, it's boundary maintenance. Who gets to decide what it is? Well, yeah, for the way the church functions, the leaders get to decide. That's the way it's set up. That's the structure. But then I get to decide how I interact within that. And there are people who want boundary maintenance. No, the pro. The progressive Mormons shouldn't exist. They're causing problems all over the place. They're living in a fantasy land. Depending on what side you're.
Julie Hanks [01:03:49] You're.
John Dehlin [01:03:50] That's Jacob Hansen and Some ex Mormons. Right.
Julie Hanks [01:03:52] It's both the same dynamic.
Jana Spangler [01:03:54] Both and what? Pretty progressive Mormons. The ones that I know are trying to say is, let's stop with the boundary maintenance and let's draw the circle bigger. You're trying to draw your circle. That only includes your point of view. Can we draw the circle bigger? And I will draw the circle to include you who are trying to exclude me.
Julie Hanks [01:04:13] That's how I feel about Jacob's criticisms of me. I'm like, I'm fine with you being in the church, Jacob. Leave me alone. Right.
Jana Spangler [01:04:20] It's not a me versus you.
Julie Hanks [01:04:21] It's. It's like, it's big enough.
Jana Spangler [01:04:23] It's big enough.
Julie Hanks [01:04:24] But it's big enough until a leader says, you're out. You know what I mean?
Jana Spangler [01:04:29] Absolutely.
Julie Hanks [01:04:30] So it's kind of we get to decide. And also they get to decide.
Jana Spangler [01:04:34] Yep.
John Dehlin [01:04:34] And, Julia, you may have heard me tell the story, but I'll tell it here. More stories, too. Like, there was this point when my brother Joel was, like, super high up in the church. He was besties with most of the quorum of the 15. He. He was working with Elder Holland. And I had played tennis with Elder Holland at byu. I dated his daughter at byu, and I had taken a class from him. So I had some relationship with Elder Holland. But once my brother started working with him, Elder Holland reached out to me for two lunches. And in the very first lunch, I asked Elder Holland, he's like, do you have any questions?
John Dehlin [01:05:08] Is there any way we could do better? What could. You know? And it was a private lunch, and it was at church headquarters. And I was very grateful to be there and very honored that he was getting my feedback. And I. I was trying to think about what's a question I could ask that would be valuable. I wasn't going to say, like, is it true Joseph Smith was a polygamist? You know, I just thought I was going to embarrass my brother and embarrass him. And we all know the answer to that. So the one question I thought of was, it took me months to come up with this.
John Dehlin [01:05:35] I said, oh, Lord, Holland, do you want people like me in the church? He could have said, no. This was 2009, 2010. This was. This is a good five, six years into Mormon stories. And also this was the time where I was speaking out about Mitt Romney running for president. And I was on Good Morning America, and I was. I was willing to be critical of the church.
John Dehlin [01:06:01] And what he said to me is, we want you in the tent. We need you in the tent. He literally said, I would have 100,000 Joel and John Dehlins in this church. And he said, I don't even care if you're in the farthest corner of the tent and half of your rear end is sticking out of the tent. We still want you in this church. And then he said, all I ask, and this is kind of reflects what Patrick said in this documentary, is that you're willing to point your tent in the direction of the brethren and. And give fair consideration to what they say, and we want you in this church.
John Dehlin [01:06:40] And then the other thing he said was, the ripple is strongest. You know, you throw a rock in the pond, the ripple is strongest closest to the rock. We believe that you'll have better results the more you listen to us. But if you want to stay on the outside, we've got no problem with that. We still want you in the church. So, Julie, what do you think about the idea. And this may be more tender for you, And I don't mean to be condescending. I'm just older, but, like, I think I'm older than you. Sure, I'm older. Yeah.
Julie Hanks [01:07:10] I think I'm older than, you know, I'm.
John Dehlin [01:07:11] Okay, well, I don't mean to be condescending, regardless, but it. Obviously, I was. You're not. You're not being excommunicated, but like, 10 years ago, as far as I know, 10 years ago, I was so. I was getting the heat 15 years ago, more than maybe some of the heat you're getting now.
Julie Hanks [01:07:27] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:07:27] But all that is to say that, like, I understand the mindset, especially when you're getting the heat of, like, they hate us, they don't want us. That's not the church. But, like, I. What do you think about the perspective that maybe they, you know, they're allowing restore. Restore's got 5,000 people attending this Progressive Mormon General Conference. They're allowing lots of different voices, a lot of these people who participated. Terrell Givens is a church employee, and he's participating in this documentary and in RESTORE and on Faithful Matters.
Beau Oyler [01:08:05] Quorum of the 70 at restore.
Julie Hanks [01:08:07] Yeah.
Beau Oyler [01:08:07] There's members of the Quorum of the 70 at the restore conference listening in.
John Dehlin [01:08:12] So what do we think, Julie? I'll ask you first. What do we think about the idea that they do want. They do want a big tent? They do want progressive Mormons. They're even supporting it. They just can't say it over the pulpit. And then maybe they've got a certain Set of red lines that people can't cross.
Julie Hanks [01:08:30] Well, maybe the top 15 do, but I think you get down. I think that fear really drives the regional and local leaders. Like they're afraid of getting in trouble. They're afraid. Right. And so if the leaders at the top don't say it over the pulpit, it's not going to get to the bishops and the stake presidents in the area authorities. Right. So maybe they do at the top. And I believe he was sincere in saying that. And, and that's what everyone would say because that's the right thing to say. But that's not how people act.
John Dehlin [01:09:09] Yeah, right.
Julie Hanks [01:09:10] Like we really want you as long as you know.
Jana Spangler [01:09:14] And I would imagine there's a percentage of bishops or stake presidents that, that would hear that story and go, yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know if he really said that.
Julie Hanks [01:09:21] He was just being nice, you know,
Jana Spangler [01:09:22] it's not, this is not, our, our leaders are not trained.
Julie Hanks [01:09:27] Yeah.
Jana Spangler [01:09:28] I, I, they're not trained in, in many things other than business administration, frankly. They're not trained in dealing with this kind of stuff. So if, if they're not setting the, if they, if they really have that feeling at the top, then yeah, they got to let someone know.
Beau Oyler [01:09:45] Yeah, yeah. But those conversations are always in private. They're always over a lunch. It's always like, I was told not to tell you. Yeah, but I'm going to tell you something that Elder so and so said and it's going to blow your mind. Yeah, always. Yeah, that's how, that's how it transfers.
Jana Spangler [01:09:59] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:09:59] And the critical answer to my own question to you, Julie, is there's a good cop, bad cop scenario where the brethren might publicly facing, or even in private at the top, say very affirming, backslapping things, but then use the mid level management as the hammers.
Julie Hanks [01:10:17] For sure. Yeah, exactly.
Beau Oyler [01:10:19] Well, that's why when you get in private also sometimes, like the audio that was leaked from Elder Holland and that dinner of him just literally banging the table of how furious he is with people who are leaving the church and, and so you get both sides, you know, I think he was saying what he needed to say at your lunch.
John Dehlin [01:10:34] Yeah.
Beau Oyler [01:10:35] And he may feel that way too. He may want it. I mean, I think that the church is facing a serious problem with the Jacob Hansen membership. Right. The membership who took a break from church because President Nelson said to wear masks and get vaccinated. And they're like, well, then I'm out. Like, there is that faction of the church that is very strong and that's why Jacob Hansen is so popular. Right. And so they have this balance of like, how do we keep the ultra. Right. And how do we keep the progressive or orthodox and progressive. How do we keep them both?
John Dehlin [01:11:03] So just to close out this section. So Julie, do you. Can you hold right now that the church, even the top church leaders support and want even the progressive wing that you were for many years, in my mind a face of that. Even if you got some heat because of Jacob Hansen or mid level management and I don't know how much you've even talked about this. So I'm not speaking out of.
Julie Hanks [01:11:25] No, no, you're fine.
John Dehlin [01:11:26] Okay.
Jana Spangler [01:11:27] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:11:27] Like, can you hold that? Maybe they still. And by the way, there is the. There's the tendency like with Sam Young of. Or Natasha of like taking the advice but then excommunicating the spokesperson.
Julie Hanks [01:11:38] Yeah, go ahead. No, that's, that's what I was thinking is like they'll. They'll say, yeah, yeah, we do need to do better with doubt. And then they come up with excommunicate you and then publish a bunch of books at Deseret book on doubt and. Right. Or like Kate Kelly and like, oh, we need to women to be more prominent in general conference. So they're actually listening, but they can't, they can't accept you. The messenger. Right. Like, we'll take the message, but we have to excise the messenger. And I just, I think they have
John Dehlin [01:12:09] to do that because they claim to be communicating with God.
Beau Oyler [01:12:12] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:12:13] So they can't make it sound like they're taking feedback from you, a woman nonetheless. Right.
Julie Hanks [01:12:18] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:12:18] So they're going to have to take the feedback but punish the messenger so that they can keep their. The perception that God's in command.
Jana Spangler [01:12:27] Yeah.
Julie Hanks [01:12:27] I just think fear is playing such a big role in the church right now among Orthodox members. Like, afraid my kids are going to leave. I'm afraid this. I'm afraid, you know, they're going to read the sea. I'm just afraid. Leaders are afraid. And so when there's a culture of fear, it makes it really hard to have open dialog like this. You know, this series is showing when you're just scared and holding on to everything. There's not a curiosity and an openness to other people's perspectives. And I Bet the top 15 aren't as, as fearful as like lower down could be. The food chain could be.
Book of Mormon Historicity Segment
John Dehlin [01:13:05] All right, well, let's, let's go to part two. So Part two was mostly, I think, about Book of Mormon historicity, which I thought was cool that they're hidden, that one head on. Let's go ahead maybe and play a clip or two from that. And then I've got. This is the one I have. This is like a pet. They're all big concerns for me, but this is one that I want. I'm going to be drilling on a little bit more. This is Jeremy Runnels. Oh.
Julie Hanks [01:13:32] The Book of Mormon is at great
John Dehlin [01:13:33] pains itself to insist on its own authenticity and historicity. The actual authorship by Nephi and subsequent prophets.
Julie Hanks [01:13:41] I think that if the Book Mormon
John Dehlin [01:13:44] is fiction, then Moroni was a fictitious character. If Moroni was a fictitious character, then he never appeared to Joseph Smith. If he never appeared to Joseph Smith, then the entire edifice of this church
Beau Oyler [01:13:54] just crumbles and collapses.
John Dehlin [01:13:56] Okay, so we're gonna be talking a lot. So what was your reaction, Julie?
Julie Hanks [01:14:01] I was like, exactly, exactly what he said.
John Dehlin [01:14:07] Well, like, I was like, why would anybody include that? Bo, what are you thinking?
Beau Oyler [01:14:12] No, it's same. I mean, they were saying things that, like, out. If you just took that clip, it'd be like, major consequences for saying these things. But then all of a sudden it goes number two. The Book of Mormon was the most frustrating chapter for me. Like, one of the most frustrating because it was just like, we're going to state, like kind of state a challenge or a problem, and then we are just going to pummel it with apologetics, some of which were so incredibly weak. And I want Jim to come back in and talk about this, because freaking Jim comes back like a month ago, right?
Beau Oyler [01:14:46] And Robert's like, oh, my gosh, we forgot archaeological facts of the Book of Mormon. Hey, Jim, could you drum up some facts that have been so debunked, but we'll talk about it in a way that everybody can be like, yeah, see? See, it is true. See, there is archaeological evidence for it. As long as you don't scratch and sniff.
John Dehlin [01:15:05] Yeah, you mean like Naholm and.
Beau Oyler [01:15:08] Come on, you guys.
Julie Hanks [01:15:09] Yeah, like, that's just been debunked for so long that it was. It was like, really? That's the best we can do? Isn't there better. Aren't there better arguments?
Beau Oyler [01:15:20] So I had a tough time with that, right? Because I loved the Book of Mormon. And there is this state. There is this idea that you could take the Book of Mormon and say, it's not historic. Right? And this is positioned there. It's not historic at all. It's just a book that can bring value to your life, that can spiritually bring value. I can accept that. Absolutely.
Julie Hanks [01:15:38] There's parts of it, there's truth in it. It doesn't have to be literal to
Beau Oyler [01:15:41] be valuable, just almost every other book.
Jana Spangler [01:15:45] Well, this goes back to what the first clip we showed with Thomas McConkey mentioning, you know, there's a discussion that can be had where you think it's historical and I don't think it's historical. We could have a really great discussion of value, I could imagine in a, in a gospel doctrine class where we don't even know if we, what we believe about it historically, but we're having a really rich discussion about how the text inspires us and what it's, what it's bringing up, what issue it's bringing up that I'm seeing in my life. You know, like that's where they want to go. And I think that's, that's important. If we're going to do big tent Mormonism, I think we need to get to more of those kinds of conversations rather than getting in the, you know, the fight club about who's right and who is it.
Beau Oyler [01:16:33] I can prove it either way.
Jana Spangler [01:16:34] And also, don't leave it behind. It's interesting. We've made a big deal out of our historicity forever. So it's not like you can just tell people, don't worry about it, don't worry about it. And, and there is that chain link. If it's fiction, is it this? And you know, only if people sit down and say, well, this is what it means. If it's fiction, this is what it means. If it's not fiction, this is what it means. If it's partially historical, this is what it means. If what does translate mean? I mean, there, there's value in that, but that discussion alone can actually help us get to another place of what is this in our lives?
Jana Spangler [01:17:06] So they both, they all belong. But I don't think it helps us to go back and forth with who's got the best argument over it because it will satisfy no one. If you want to believe in Nahome, you're not going to listen to the debunking of, of that. You are going to be like, nope, it's there, it's there, it's there.
Beau Oyler [01:17:20] That's why go ahead and leave it as this can be a spiritually uplifting book that if you believe his historic great. And if you don't, that's great, who cares? It's just, it can be a spiritually
John Dehlin [01:17:32] uplifting book, which I think the documentary says it does, but it says other things. And so, first of all, I'm just going to say, for whatever reason, I disliked Terrell's comments more than anyone else in the entire documentary. Do y'.
Julie Hanks [01:17:47] All. I felt the same way.
John Dehlin [01:17:48] Did you?
Julie Hanks [01:17:49] Yes. And I love Terrell and I've been inspired by his work, so it's. But there I was the most frustrated.
John Dehlin [01:17:56] Okay.
Julie Hanks [01:17:56] With. With some of his comments.
Beau Oyler [01:17:59] Oh, just wait till we get to the polygamy one.
Jana Spangler [01:18:05] There was someone who bothered me more.
Julie Hanks [01:18:06] Okay.
John Dehlin [01:18:07] Do you want to say or do
Beau Oyler [01:18:07] you know what it is? Sure.
Jana Spangler [01:18:08] I mean, it's. It's later in that. And I don't even know his name. It was the. The one who started the company.
Beau Oyler [01:18:16] Oh. Oh, James.
Julie Hanks [01:18:19] Josh.
Jana Spangler [01:18:20] James.
John Dehlin [01:18:20] Okay.
Jana Spangler [01:18:21] And what it is, it's the microaggressions, and Terrell has the microaggressions. That's what's bothering me about him. And it's bothering me when someone deems to tell you you disagree with me. Let me tell you why. Let me tell you why you disagree. Let me tell you why you made the decision that's not mine. I really have a problem with that. And we are expert at it, both in and out of the church. We are expert at this.
John Dehlin [01:18:42] We'll get to that one. Let me just. I was trying to. I wish Jim were here to explain why they played that clip with Terrell saying either the Book of Mormon's historical or the church is a fraud. Why were they using Terrell as a bad example of, like, rigid orthodox Mormonism? That's. That is fragile. No, like what? Because that's clearly not what the documentary's. Ultimately.
Beau Oyler [01:19:05] That's why chapter two was such a curveball. Because chapter two was a double down on the Book of Mormon is so special. We're the only ones who have it, and it is the keystone of our religion. I mean, that's what that comment was. And it is historical, by the way.
Jana Spangler [01:19:20] Yeah, it framed other people in a way. I just, you know, Maxine is a friend of mine, and I, you know, she explained this on the Mormon book reviews, if you want to go listen to her speak for herself on this. But it framed her in a way that her comment seems to be commenting on the historicity of the Book of Mormon. And it was. Her comment was not about the historicity,
John Dehlin [01:19:42] so she was taken out of context. All right, well, let's. Let's hear a little bit more, because I'm gonna actually go into a little bit of detail. On this one to say that Joseph Smith just made this up, just sat there and read it off when he's, you know, 24 years old with no learning to speak of. I do not think, think as a historian, you can say Joseph Smith could have written that book. There are sections in there that Joseph Smith could not have made up. There's something historical about it.
John Dehlin [01:20:14] Okay. And I want to let us comment on that, but I've got a couple more clips that I want to play first. So there we have Richard Bushman, Harvard, Columbia level historian, expert on Joseph Smith, saying, no scholar. You know, there's no way Joseph could have made it up. And there's no scholar that would claim that he could. I'm gonna. I'm gonna go ahead and play the next clip as well. This all drive me crazy.
▶ Video Clip 1Video Clip 1 [01:20:36] I don't like the word translation.
Video Clip 1 [01:20:37] It's clearly a channeling of some sort inspired by the gold plates.
Video Clip 1 [01:20:42] He always went back and revised his revelations. He even revised the language of the Book of Mormon.
Video Clip 1 [01:20:47] He.
Video Clip 1 [01:20:48] There's a kind of implicit recognition there that the language that he was using to try and communicate what he was receiving through revelation was never adequate. He was always frustrated with the inadequacy of language. Translation is always a creative process in which the translator is a part of it. And so I think this speaks to something deep within Mormon theology, that we are co participants with God.
Video Clip 1 [01:21:14] Then I found out that many of the animals and plants and technologies mentioned in the past Book of Mormon didn't exist in the Americas during the time the Book of Mormon took place.
Video Clip 1 [01:21:28] There were no horses in pre Columbian America. There were no steel in pre Columbian America.
Video Clip 1 [01:21:34] It's not a historical book.
Video Clip 1 [01:21:38] I'm always reminded that as a Greek
Video Clip 1 [01:21:40] student learning the word hippopotamus, of course
Video Clip 1 [01:21:43] meant horse of the river.
Video Clip 1 [01:21:44] So the Romans called a hippopotamus a horse.
Video Clip 1 [01:21:47] That was their name for it.
Video Clip 1 [01:21:49] So one could imagine, right, modern skeptics
Video Clip 1 [01:21:51] who didn't know much about antiquity saying,
Video Clip 1 [01:21:54] well, the Romans obviously invented this because there aren't any river horses in Egypt.
Video Clip 1 [01:21:58] You use names and terminology that are
Video Clip 1 [01:22:01] part of the resources available to you. So I don't know what horses in
Video Clip 1 [01:22:05] the Book of Mormon were.
Video Clip 1 [01:22:06] Were they llamas? Were they the horses that are now extinct? But all of the questions about silk or scimitars or steel fall into the
Video Clip 1 [01:22:15] same kind of category.
John Dehlin [01:22:15] They. They're just not really, really serious issues. While he was serving in the United States Senate, my father Bob, wrote a book. So couple things. First of all, we all, I think Everybody loves in the world loves. Patrick Mason, dear friend, what do we feel about this pivot of the Church? That it. Joseph Smith called it a translation. The Doctrine and Covenants professes Joseph Smith as a prophet, seer, revelator and translator. He has a translation room in the Kirtland, you know, in the school of the Prophets, and later in the Kirtland temple. We've all been told it was a translation since time immemorial. Converts to the church are taught by missionaries that it's a translation. And now all of a sudden, every
Beau Oyler [01:22:56] painting depicting a clear translation, from plates to, you know, the Book of Mormon, handwritten.
John Dehlin [01:23:03] So, like, what is going on? Is this gaslighting? Like, how in the world are we now questioning? And of course, the apologists have been doing this for 10 or 15 years. And I'm not calling Patrick an apologist per se, but what is this technique of now saying translation now means revelation? What do you guys think about that?
Julie Hanks [01:23:21] Wasn't that Terrell that said that?
Jana Spangler [01:23:24] Patrick said it too. They kind of said it together.
Julie Hanks [01:23:26] Okay. Yeah. Well, I think the facts as we know them now don't support translation. So we have to make up something that makes it make sense. Right. So it's like, well, he didn't have the plates with him. Okay, well then he must have, he looked. It was a rock in the hat. Well, then he must have been channeling. Let's call it channel. But that's not what I was taught.
John Dehlin [01:23:45] Yeah.
Julie Hanks [01:23:46] So we have to make it make sense somehow. So let's change what words mean.
John Dehlin [01:23:50] Yeah.
Julie Hanks [01:23:50] To make it make sense.
Beau Oyler [01:23:51] It's also not what Joseph wrote.
Julie Hanks [01:23:53] Well, it's not what he thought he
Beau Oyler [01:23:54] was doing, what he wrote and how he presented it like it wasn't a. I channeled an ancient prophet named Nephi.
Julie Hanks [01:24:01] Well, why have the plates?
Beau Oyler [01:24:02] Why have the plates.
Jana Spangler [01:24:03] Well, and, and I, and I'll, I'll, I'll try, I'm going to try to put on my really generous hat here and say, you know, if I'm, if I'm in the details enough, and I'm open enough to see that the historical record is not jiving with the story we've always told.
Jana Spangler [01:24:25] You know, maybe I'm not making it up, but I really am searching for how can I, how can these things come together and how can these things come together in a way that preserves what I believe and how I am in this, this whole project and this, in my religion, in my life, in my identity? I mean, this goes so deep. Right?
Jana Spangler [01:24:44] So I, I, I Think it's important. Even if it's not the, the. The ending spot, it's important for these people to start throwing out. Okay, what if it's more this? How does that land? Let's have that be part of the conversation. I want it to be part of the conversation.
Jana Spangler [01:25:01] And I want people for whom that just makes absolutely no sense because of xyz. I want them to bring it to the table and say, well, what do we do with this now? Let's wrestle together with this. You know that I think we're all so uncomfortable in that space that we want to just go to the answer as quickly as possible.
John Dehlin [01:25:21] Yeah. And what does it mean when we're changing the meanings of words or the 200 year history of explaining? Like, is that apologetics? Like, I wish they would have just left this entire part out. Because to change the history or change the meaning of words or to fundamentally change the narrative to try and save a historical book,
Julie Hanks [01:25:47] this to me is another sign of immaturity. Right. Just say, oh, we got it wrong. We were telling a story that actually wasn't how it happened. And now we have more information, and this is actually what was going on.
John Dehlin [01:25:58] But Erstadt Benson did call the Book of Mormon the keystone of our religion.
Julie Hanks [01:26:02] It still can be. It still can be. Like, it can be an important.
John Dehlin [01:26:09] What percentage of Mormons leave the church when the church admits the Book of Mormon isn't historical? Is it 10? Is it?
Julie Hanks [01:26:14] Well, how many are leaving now? Because they're still insisting that it is, and there's no evidence to support it.
John Dehlin [01:26:19] I don't know, but it would be more. I mean, you look at Community of Christ.
Julie Hanks [01:26:23] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:26:23] You make too many changes, you lose 70% of your active membership.
Jana Spangler [01:26:27] Yep.
John Dehlin [01:26:27] So, I mean it. Believe it or not, Julie, it could be worse.
Jana Spangler [01:26:32] Well, I, I think it's. It's all a huge problem. I mean, I think we actually. To speak for redefining words. I think we need to. Sometimes we get caught in a word and we just wrestle over it and trying to fit something into it. And we do need to redefine something and things and say, well, maybe. Maybe the way we've approached this isn't always great. What would it bring to the conversation if we. If we looked at it in a
Julie Hanks [01:26:54] different way, but I mean, acknowledge it explicitly. Like we're changing the meaning. Not like, not trying to be right, like Sly, just like, oh, we got it. We got this wrong.
Jana Spangler [01:27:08] You took the words right out of my mouth.
Julie Hanks [01:27:09] Okay.
Jana Spangler [01:27:09] That's exactly what. No, say it. Preach I mean, this is what I'm saying. We need more transparency. I think so many of us, and this is a deep psychological thing, we are so afraid to be wrong. And you're a church employee and you're trying to be more honest with this. And you know, if you go one step too far, it's going to cost you your employment. And people who don't understand what you're doing are going to come after you. Yeah, you're in a pickle. Like, we have to be able to make small steps. And yes, it's not enough.
Jana Spangler [01:27:41] It's not enough. And a lot of people are going to be in pain over that on both sides. But we also have to be willing to sit with those micro steps, not just accept them, not just say, yep, that's it. But to say, I like where you're going with that. Here's some problems with that. Have an adult conversation.
Beau Oyler [01:28:00] Yeah, it's part of the overall journey, I think, that we just see, it's like when I was a kid, we learned it like boiling the frog, right? Like if you boiling water, it's going to jump out. So what are the, what are we doing? What are they doing? It's, it's a. Nobody's trying to kill the frog here. Right.
John Dehlin [01:28:13] It's just going to say that metaphor is problematic.
Beau Oyler [01:28:16] It is problematic, but it's just the one notch at a time, right? You have to go from translate, you know, divine translation from golden plates to co authorship. From co authorship to authorship, acknowledge that it's changing.
Julie Hanks [01:28:31] Right. And be honest, don't just go, well, oh, we've always known it was a rock and a hat. What's wrong with you? Why didn't you know that?
Beau Oyler [01:28:37] The first time I ever heard rock in the hat was from a friend who was a Jehovah Witness who was teaching me the reality of the Book of Mormon when I was a kid. And he's just like, well, no, like, dude, he had like a rock, he put in a hat. And I'm like, you're an anti Mormon. We can't talk about this anymore.
Jana Spangler [01:28:53] You know, I actually heard about it in one of Terrell's books, by the Hand of Mormon. That's where I learned about it.
John Dehlin [01:28:58] And then he learned it on South Park.
Beau Oyler [01:29:00] On South Park, Yep.
Jana Spangler [01:29:01] That was the more fun way to learn it.
Beau Oyler [01:29:03] So when I was bishop, the, the essays came out and so President Krittle, our state president, amazing person, he used the third hour and of every word and he would go word to word and present the essays to the ward members. Literally, like slides on a screen, presenting it and saying, you need to study these. Okay. This is real Mormon history. That's really bold as our stake president. Okay. And. And then I would go. When he came to The Walnut Creek 2nd Ward, it was great. And. But it was also, like, eye opening on a lot of things. And I went to my office afterward and I sat there and there was a line out the door and members one after another, like, why would President Crittle do this? This is not spiritually uplifting. Why is he talking about this stuff? This is not good. And it was just. It was eye opening.
John Dehlin [01:29:55] Yeah.
Jana Spangler [01:29:55] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:29:58] And then the second part of that clip was Terrell basically saying, maybe horse doesn't mean horse. Maybe horse is a taper.
Beau Oyler [01:30:04] Chariots. You're going to put chariot on a llama, on a hippo, like, read the Book of Mormon. They were horses.
Julie Hanks [01:30:11] Yeah. Well. And if there are. If there's one anachronism, it means it's not historical. If one of them still. Like, all you need is one.
John Dehlin [01:30:20] Yeah.
Julie Hanks [01:30:21] And so apologists are like, oh, look, we've checked off all these. We found.
John Dehlin [01:30:25] And it's like the number of anachronisms are decreasing.
Julie Hanks [01:30:28] You know, it's like it's still. There's. If. If you have one, it's a problem.
John Dehlin [01:30:32] Yeah. Yeah.
Beau Oyler [01:30:33] And all of this is back to definition. All of it. Right from Thomas's. You know, how do you define Mormon to. How do you define a horse? It can always go to, like, I guess it depends on how you define that.
Jana Spangler [01:30:43] Yeah, that's fair.
John Dehlin [01:30:44] Okay.
Beau Oyler [01:30:44] You're right.
John Dehlin [01:30:45] And to be fair, strike a positive note. The fact that this is for believers and they're acknowledging the historicity problems, acknowledging the horse problem, that's. That's groundbreaking.
Julie Hanks [01:30:57] Yeah, that is.
John Dehlin [01:30:58] So, you know, so you got to give them credit for at least introducing the problems. And it's one of the most important and sensitive problems. Book of Mormon historicity, like temple, like female ordination, like, they're. Those are top three. I'm thinking. What do y' all think?
Jana Spangler [01:31:18] Yeah, it's huge.
John Dehlin [01:31:19] Yeah. So. So credit for that. But then in my view, Teryl just jumps the shark.
Beau Oyler [01:31:24] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:31:25] So. So I'm always reminded that as a Greek student, learning the word hippopotamus, of
Beau Oyler [01:31:31] course meant horse of the river. We saw the hippo.
Julie Hanks [01:31:35] So what?
John Dehlin [01:31:35] But. But what? He ends up saying, maybe I didn't play the whole clip. Because what he ends up saying is, I'm going to replay it because it's important. What he says, I have never found anything that, to my mind, poses a
Julie Hanks [01:31:48] serious threat or a serious challenge to the fundamental assertions about its authenticity given by Joseph Smith.
John Dehlin [01:31:58] And contrary to what is often the popular opinion, I think there is an abundant wealth of evidence that substantiates its historical claims. There are a lot of people who.
Jana Spangler [01:32:13] That. That tells me more about Terrell than it does whether there are substantial problems to the bookmark.
John Dehlin [01:32:19] Why?
Julie Hanks [01:32:20] Because.
Jana Spangler [01:32:21] Because. Because it tells me that he has a big need to have it be at least partially historical. And when you are in that place, it's really hard to see that there are substantial problems.
John Dehlin [01:32:41] Yeah.
Jana Spangler [01:32:41] Substantial challenges.
Julie Hanks [01:32:43] He claims that there's substantial evidence and.
Jana Spangler [01:32:46] Right.
Julie Hanks [01:32:46] I have yet to find any.
Jana Spangler [01:32:48] Right.
John Dehlin [01:32:49] Let me. Let me play that clip because I've
Jana Spangler [01:32:51] got that we're talking more about us. I always say this, like people's view of the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith and whatever says more about them than it does the reality.
Evaluating the Evidence for Book of Mormon Claims
John Dehlin [01:33:02] I think we have a clip on his claim of abundance of evidence. So let's see if that. I have never found anything that to my mind poses a serious threat or
Beau Oyler [01:33:13] a serious challenge to.
Jana Spangler [01:33:16] And then he goes on to say abandoned evidence.
John Dehlin [01:33:19] Yeah, yeah, yeah. That quote. I have never found anything to my mind that, to my mind poses a serious threat or serious challenge to the fundamental assertions about its authenticity given by Joseph Smith. I think that quote is irresponsible and deceptive if you have any awareness of the broader scientific community. And he is smart enough to know that. And so I don't ever want to judge someone's intentions or motives or even accuse them of lying or deceiving. So there's got to be some way he's wordsmithing to where he feels comfortable saying that and feels like he's being honest. But let me just play one clip from Michael Koh.
John Dehlin [01:34:04] He is a Yale. He's passed away, but I've interviewed him twice in Mormon stories. He's the world's foremost archeologist on Mesoamerica during the time of the Book of Mormon. And I don't. There's no greater authority on Book of Mormon historicity, in my view, who would be objective and knowledgeable about the Book of Mormon than Michael Coe? And to me, Michael Coe gives, like, literally the perfect answer. Not just destroying Terrell's false claims, but also endorsing the spirit of this documentary. And I don't think you guys have seen this, so I'll roll the clip.
▶ Video Clip 2Video Clip 2 [01:34:43] What. What would you. Let's just say someone isn't asking you to opine about spiritual or religious matters, they're basically saying, Help me, Dr. Code to decide whether or not I can rely on the Book of Mormon as an ancient record. Because my entire life and my children's lives and my grandchildren's lives are going to be based on this religion. And if the Book of Mormon isn't what it claims to be, then I don't want to build my life, I, my children's life and my grandchildren's life on this book. But if it is what it claims to be, then it's the most important thing I could ever build my life on. What counsel would you give these people if that's what it rests on? It's not resting on a firm foundation.
Video Clip 2 [01:35:27] I mean,
Video Clip 2 [01:35:30] as an old guy, seen a lot of the world and who once had a big Christian background, if you believe that the Mormon religion gives you a set of values that you and your children and grandchildren can profit by, for God's sake, don't leave it. But the whole idea that it's all going to depend on the truthfulness of the history, so called history in the Book of Mormon. And so that's a bad foundation.
Video Clip 2 [01:36:07] If the Book of Mormon and its interpretation and the way of life that's come out of that in Utah and other Henley Mormon areas is a good one. Stick to it. But don't hang everything on the truthfulness or untruthful of that document because in the long run you'll be sorry.
John Dehlin [01:36:35] So you're saying stay Mormon. If it makes you happy, we can stop. But I, you know, I, in my early interview with Michael Koh, I'm like, okay, let me name things in the Book of Mormon and you tell me if they were there during the time period. The Book of Mormon claims silk. No. Wheat? No. Barley? No. Steel? No. Horses? No. Golden plates? No. Like, he destroys any chance.
John Dehlin [01:36:59] And you know, the whole LDS discussion series, DNA, anachronisms, deutero, Isaiah, like it's the most ridiculously unscientific, unhistorical 19th century document ever written and everybody knows it. So what the bleep is Terrell doing here? Right.
Beau Oyler [01:37:19] Yeah, right, exactly. And he knows better.
John Dehlin [01:37:22] Does he?
Beau Oyler [01:37:22] Like, I, I think he does, but
John Dehlin [01:37:24] that means he's deceiving people intentionally.
Beau Oyler [01:37:27] I think he's choosing his words very careful.
Jana Spangler [01:37:29] Okay, I, I mean, and I don't know, I would have to have a conversation with Terrell to know what Terrell is doing there. But I'll, I'll, I will use his own words later in the documentary. Against him in this place. And this is, I, I, I do respect Terrell a lot of that. He admits in the polygamy episode that if you are not willing to see the problems with this, then you're morally oblivious. And I think if you're not willing to see the problems with the Book of Mormon, you're oblivious in other ways. And so. But it's one size denier.
Beau Oyler [01:38:04] Yeah, right.
Julie Hanks [01:38:04] Intellectual.
Jana Spangler [01:38:05] Are we willing to see? What are we willing as human beings to see? Terrell has carved out a place, as far as I can tell, and I don't know the man that he's carved out a place where we can, we can say polygamy was wrong and hold on to our testimony, our belief in the way that we do it.
Jana Spangler [01:38:28] I think that he's not prepared to do that with the Book of Mormon. And that's a spiritual wrestling that at least is not there right now. And so I think when a person is there, they can't see it. I mean, I remember when I was in my apologetic face, I had a very strong, very robust apologetic face, which is probably why I hate it so much now that where I was like, well, that, you know, those Book of Abraham problems, I mean, you know, there's this other document theory, you know, the multiple documents. And I mean, it was like the. So you're saying there's a chance, you know, I mean, you're in that place.
Jana Spangler [01:39:09] And so, yeah, do I want to redefine hippopotamus? If that like, you know, makes me be able to hold on to what's dear, near and dear. And I'm not ready to rip off that band aid. Like, who knows? And again, time has gone by. I don't know where Terrell is today, but what's he doing? We don't know.
John Dehlin [01:39:29] But he's speaking as the thing that's hard is he's speaking as an academic with a PhD telling sincere questioning members ignore all of the predominant scientific consensus along with the majority of faithful believing scholars that also say the Book of Mormon is a 19th century document. He's saying ignore all of that. I've never found even one problem that
Julie Hanks [01:39:58] I find is, well, there's a preponderance of evidence for, for it too, which is just not. I would like to see it.
Jana Spangler [01:40:04] I think what he's saying is I'm ignoring all of that. I don't know if he's telling us to ignore it. Yeah, I, I don't know if he's taking it that far. I think we're looking I think we hang on these people's words to see. Is there a place, Is there a place that I can go here with you?
Beau Oyler [01:40:19] Yeah. It's like, you're smart.
Julie Hanks [01:40:20] How are you?
Jana Spangler [01:40:20] Yes. How are you doing it? And, and for a lot of us, that's enough. For years, that was enough for me. A smart people's person said it, so I can go there. I don't have to worry about it. Terrell's smart, so there go. But, you know, all it tells me is that he can ignore a lot of things.
John Dehlin [01:40:36] Yeah. Yeah. And I guess we can also. You know, I, I'm super grateful to Robert and, and Jim for doing this. They didn't have to include this clip. And I, I think their documentary would have been way stronger if they had left these clips out of bad, horrible, misleading, deceptive Book of Mormon apologetics.
Beau Oyler [01:40:58] I think chapter two all together. Just. If I were to cut one.
John Dehlin [01:41:01] Yeah.
Beau Oyler [01:41:02] That would be only because it was
John Dehlin [01:41:04] done so badly, not because it's not important.
Beau Oyler [01:41:06] Very important.
John Dehlin [01:41:07] Yeah.
Beau Oyler [01:41:09] Hit the cutting room floor.
Jana Spangler [01:41:10] Everyone I've talked to is dissatisfied with this particular one.
John Dehlin [01:41:14] I have one more example. Just because this is a hobby horse of mine, but I think it's clear to me that the Book of Mormon
Beau Oyler [01:41:18] isn't just a plagiarized document.
John Dehlin [01:41:20] I think that's overly simplistic.
Beau Oyler [01:41:22] It's overly reductionistic.
John Dehlin [01:41:24] It doesn't take into account the inner complexity of the book.
Beau Oyler [01:41:28] Does it have borrowings from the King James Bible and possibly from other ideas and sources?
Julie Hanks [01:41:33] Sure.
Beau Oyler [01:41:33] This, this can. This can be part of Joseph Smith's mind as a translator, but it is a unique and, and complex and rather stunning work.
Jana Spangler [01:41:43] He's back to translation. Just like.
Julie Hanks [01:41:44] Who's saying. Yeah, yeah, I forgot.
John Dehlin [01:41:49] Who's saying what. No, who's saying that it's pure plagiarism. Right. Yes.
Julie Hanks [01:41:52] Yes. I've never heard anyone say that. It's a purely plagiarized book. So that feels like, like a, It's
John Dehlin [01:42:02] a bit of a strong.
Beau Oyler [01:42:03] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:42:03] And the only benefit of the doubt I want to give Patrick is maybe that was taken out of context.
Jana Spangler [01:42:07] Absolutely.
John Dehlin [01:42:08] Maybe Robert said, what would you say to someone who claimed the Book of Mormon was plagiarized? And in that sense. But if Patrick's offering that in response to the credible criticisms. But I've also. Patrick came on my podcast and said, the Book of Mormon is a 19th century document that's inspired. So I guess I want to give Patrick the benefit of the doubt.
Julie Hanks [01:42:29] Well, if he wasn't six years ago
John Dehlin [01:42:32] he could have just, I mean, you
Jana Spangler [01:42:33] know, I mean, there's a lot out of context in this thing. As someone who was used in clips all the way throughout in context that I didn't, I didn't know was going to be the context. I can see that.
John Dehlin [01:42:45] Because for the record, no credible thinking person that I respect is claiming the Book of Mormon is a plagiarism.
Julie Hanks [01:42:51] Right.
John Dehlin [01:42:52] They're claiming Drew Joseph Smith assembled it from a gazillion different sources, and they can identify lots of specific sources from which he drew, but nobody's thinking that he copied it from Solomon Spalding or someone else.
Jana Spangler [01:43:07] And given that he's saying it in this, I think it's important to say that.
John Dehlin [01:43:09] Yeah. Yeah. All right. One more. Couple more things. It's either a work of genius, of untutored genius that's hard to match anywhere, or it's inspired. And everybody gives Richard, you know, everyone loves Richard Bushman, like Patrick Mason. I think I didn't totally hold space for the fact that he really believes that the Book of Mormons, either Joseph Smith's a genius or it's inspired, but there's no other choices between those two. And he even goes on to say that no scholar can explain it. I'll play that.
Jana Spangler [01:43:52] Scholars, this is Maxine of Joseph Smith and his work, all admit they can't figure out how he did it. Oh, how he produced such complex, sophisticated, midrashic books of scripture that actually comment and clarify the Bible in, in ways that are so complex it would be difficult for today's scholars to reproduce the same thing.
John Dehlin [01:44:19] And I watched the, the Steve, I watched the Book of Mormon book reviews episode where Maxine expresses regret for how she expressed that. So in all fairness, I think Maxine would take those words back and say those things differently. Yes, if she had the chance. But it's, it's ridiculous. And I'm just. Julie, you were saying. What were you going to say, Julie?
Julie Hanks [01:44:39] No, I was just saying. Yeah. Just surprised that she would say that. And I love Maxine, have a ton of respect for her, and, and that was shocking.
John Dehlin [01:44:48] But recently I threw this question to, to John Turner, who I've been, who's a neutral pro lds, you know, non lds, Mormon scholar. And I just posed this question to him and I just. People all need to update. Richard Bushman needs to update his talking points here. Maxine Terrell, Everyone needs to update because here it is right here, if you didn't know it before.
Beau Oyler [01:45:15] So I don't think the Book of Mormon is like genius level could only come from God.
Jana Spangler [01:45:21] Right.
Beau Oyler [01:45:22] And you know, a lot of those arguments, they honestly, they have less to do with the literary merit or even how profound the text is. People more often point to the complexity of multiple editors, authors and things like that.
John Dehlin [01:45:42] So I do think the, I do
Beau Oyler [01:45:43] think the Book of Mormon, it's complex. I certainly grant that. I don't think it's so complex and so profound that Joseph couldn't have dictated it. And I don't think the length is something that could not be accomplished as a dictation within a couple of months. So I guess the answer, the short answer is yeah, this is pretty good and Joseph was talented enough to do it. I don't think the book is so remarkably complex or intricate or profound that it could only have come from God. But I also don't think it's so wretched that if Joseph produces is that it says nothing about his talent. I do think, I do think it's, it is indicative of a certain amount of theological and literary talent. But I think Joseph could get, get above that bar.
John Dehlin [01:46:49] Isn't John Turner great?
Jana Spangler [01:46:50] Yeah, he's awesome, 100%.
John Dehlin [01:46:51] Do you get the sense he's anti Mormon there?
Beau Oyler [01:46:53] Definitely not.
Julie Hanks [01:46:56] Here are the facts.
Jana Spangler [01:46:57] We need more of these voices from outside weighing in on these things we have been playing. We have been going back and forth, echo chambers turning against each other in this for way, way, way too long. I welcome these outside voices that have a little more perspective, perspective to bring to this.
John Dehlin [01:47:17] And for the record, John Turner published a biography on Joseph Smith with Yale University Press. It's a fantastic biography. I'm doing a 30 part series on it. We're on part 14, I think. But he's great and he loves, you know, Mormons and he loves the church in many ways. I have to play. I guess Bob Reese sometimes rubs me the wrong way as well. Let me play his ridiculous little banjo analogy.
Jana Spangler [01:47:42] Reproduce the same thing.
John Dehlin [01:47:43] For Joseph Smith to have written the Book of Mormon would be like some country kid with a banjo who could pluck out a few bars of Yankee Doodle Dandy on his banjo, being able to write a complete symphony in chorus with all kinds of intricate themes and integrated ideas. And thanks to Julia for grabbing that clip. She grabbed all these clips. I went ahead and just asked John Turner to respond to that specific argument and here was his response.
Beau Oyler [01:48:13] Well, I don't, I don't think so.
John Dehlin [01:48:14] And I think we also have to
Beau Oyler [01:48:16] be, I mean I haven't, you know, I haven't read that argument at length from Him. But I would say, you know, this is the early 1800s. There are a fair number of Americans without a lot of formal education who accomplish impressive things in terms of writing, and Joseph is not at that level. But I do think there's. There's a difference in literary attainments, say, between somebody like Joseph Smith and somebody like Brigham Young, like Joseph. Joseph has more of an education within the household and a little bit outside of it.
Julie Hanks [01:48:57] His.
Beau Oyler [01:48:58] His ability to write is. Is stronger. I think when you look at Joseph's letters, when you look at his later discourses, I think you see the same sort of engagement with the Bible and with narrative and ideas that you can find in the Book of Mormon. So, yeah, I think.
Jana Spangler [01:49:21] I think he definitely.
Beau Oyler [01:49:22] I think he was. He was up to it.
John Dehlin [01:49:25] I hope we haven't beaten a dead taper. Any final thoughts?
Final Thoughts on the Book of Mormon Episodes
Beau Oyler [01:49:30] So, final thought for me is on the Book of Mormon pieces that it's. I guess I'm disappointed that it's. They're still using false binaries to present an argument that's very disappointing to me. Right. That it's like back to Hinckley. Either the Joseph Smith is the prophet of God or he's a scoundrel. Either the church is true or is the greatest, you know, fraud, fraud known to mankind. Like, I was literally in the room on my mission when he said that. Like, looking at him saying it. And so, you know, these false binaries that we're all raised with, it's really hard to shake that. And so here we are in the Book of Mormon chapter, going back to false binaries. It's either this or it's that. It's like. No, it's far more than. Than either of those.
Jana Spangler [01:50:12] Yep.
John Dehlin [01:50:13] And disappointingly, it's some of my favorite people, theoretically, Patrick Mason, Richard Bushman, Darrell Givens that are used as voices to do this. And I'm just. I'm disappointed. But I also get it if there's a third rail. In other words, something that will get you excommunicated. It's claiming the Book of Mormon isn't divine. Right. That's, like, probably one of the top three things. So I can see why Bushman and Mason and. And Givens maybe won't even let themselves go there because the stretcher too high. They can't. Yeah. But it's. It's deceptive. So, yeah, that's feedback to which is
Beau Oyler [01:50:52] challenging with any production like this because 90% of the people that were interviewed in this are receiving money from Mormonism. The broader Mormonism, authors, podcasters, Church employees, whatever you name it, Endowed shares of
John Dehlin [01:51:07] Mormon scholarships are receiving money. Rich Mormons, Mormons, and ex Mormons are
Julie Hanks [01:51:11] making money from it too.
Beau Oyler [01:51:13] Across all of Mormonism. Across all of Mormonism. Right. I mean, your patience. Your patience, like, you know, it just is. It's an ecosystem that we've created. And so that is something that we do have to, like, kind of keep in the back of our mind.
Julie Hanks [01:51:26] There's motivation for it being true or not true.
Beau Oyler [01:51:28] Correct.
Jana Spangler [01:51:28] 100. And I. I just. I just always just roll my eyes when I hear anyone either say Joseph was completely, completely incapable.
Beau Oyler [01:51:36] Yeah.
Jana Spangler [01:51:37] Or, I mean, and I. And I kind of find it ironic and hilarious that the people who follow Joseph Smith want to make him the most dumb.
Beau Oyler [01:51:43] Yep.
Jana Spangler [01:51:44] You know.
Beau Oyler [01:51:44] Well, in order to Alister. Right. So it's just like he's a country bump kid and there's no way in the world it's clearly God.
Jana Spangler [01:51:51] Yes. But, you know, I. I also don't rule out inspiration, whatever that source is, what you can call it divine. I don't rule that out. And I don't think you have to be a historical historicity person to see some of that. And the truth is, on that note, no one knows. We'll never know one way or the other. Was there some sort of inspiration going on in this or not? Who knows? The question is, are you feeling inspiration from it? If you are, great. If you're not, there are things that will inspire you.
Beau Oyler [01:52:23] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:52:24] And the section ends there. I think it's out of Miller. That says something like, I don't know about my testimony is not based on the historicity, but do I have good encounters with the divine and am I inspired by Jesus?
Beau Oyler [01:52:38] This is what brought me to Christ. So I'm going to stay here and
Jana Spangler [01:52:40] I will, and I will fully acknowledge that a lot of people have found Jesus through the book. A lot of people have felt the divine through the Book of Mormon. And that's wonderful.
Julie Hanks [01:52:50] Whether it's historical or not. Like, I've had really great experiences.
Jana Spangler [01:52:55] Absolutely.
John Dehlin [01:52:55] Yep.
Beau Oyler [01:52:56] For sure.
LGBTQ Members and Church Policy
John Dehlin [01:52:57] Okay. All right. The next episode is on. It's LGBT Part one. There's a lot of clips we could play. I think it did a good job of. Of talking about how hard it is to be gay or lesbian and Mormon. And then I think what it really hit hard was with the 2015 policy. Do you all agree? Maybe let's play that.
Beau Oyler [01:53:20] Well, because that then went into prophetic, like, fallacy and who got it right, who got it wrong. This is revelation or policy.
John Dehlin [01:53:28] And there's two. There's two entire parts. But let's play some clips from part three. This.
Jana Spangler [01:53:35] The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has come under intense scrutiny following their new official orders against homosexuality, baptism and children. The new policy change states that same same sex couples will also now be considered apostates, saying it will no longer bless or baptize children of same sex couples until the child turns 18. Once a child turns 18, he or she will have to disavow same sex marriage. Then they can be blessed and baptized by the church.
Julie Hanks [01:54:02] Somebody used the word.
John Dehlin [01:54:04] Yeah, like I. I don't know if y' all agree, but I think the November 2015 policy is top three things in the past 20 years to cause people to leave the church. So the fact that they're retelling that story and keeping it alive is significant. What do you think?
Julie Hanks [01:54:18] Yeah, I. That was a huge. Personally, that was a huge blow. It was the first time I was like, okay, Jesus is probably not in charge here because this, he would never like, this is not Jesus. So what is happening? And that along with the, the essay is, you know, it was kind of like right after the essays came out,
Beau Oyler [01:54:39] they were like two years apart.
Julie Hanks [01:54:40] Super close. Yeah. It. I had a testimony that it was not true.
John Dehlin [01:54:47] Yeah. And then they go on to. Which is bold to play the clip of current prophet President Russell M. Nelson doubling down and calling, clarifying that it
Beau Oyler [01:55:02] wasn't policy, it was revelation.
John Dehlin [01:55:03] Yeah. So let's play that as well. Just, just because it's so significant. In an attempt to mollify that demographic within the church, at least one or two of the 70s started to make statements suggesting that this was just a temporary aberration, even saying, look, this will change and it will change soon, so don't sweat it.
John Dehlin [01:55:32] But shortly after those cracks in the facade began to develop, Russell Nelson apparently acting independently, meaning that his colleagues in the First Presidency, in the Quorum of the Twelve, didn't know he was going to make such a statement.
John Dehlin [01:55:50] Made a statement in a satellite broadcast from Hawaii that in fact this was not a policy, that this had the force of revelation. The recent additions to the church's handbook, consequent to the legalization of same sex marriage in some countries, it was our privilege as apostles to sustain what had been revealed. To President Monson, revelation from the Lord to his servants is a sacred process.
John Dehlin [01:56:24] I love the church so much. I mean, isn't that crazy bold for not just the filmmakers, but for anyone involved in the documentary to be in a documentary that's Calling out a current prophet.
Beau Oyler [01:56:38] Yeah, it's huge.
Julie Hanks [01:56:38] Yeah.
Beau Oyler [01:56:39] Yeah. Just ask Nemo how huge that is.
John Dehlin [01:56:43] Yeah.
Beau Oyler [01:56:44] Right. Like you were saying earlier, like, you can't. You can't attack the Book of Mormon. I mean, the number one is loyalty. Right. That's the fuel.
John Dehlin [01:56:51] That's right.
Beau Oyler [01:56:52] That's bigger than engine runs on. And so you attack the. The profit. Current profit. Zero tolerance.
Julie Hanks [01:56:58] Well. And criticizing policy is actually apostasy.
John Dehlin [01:57:03] That's true. Yeah.
Beau Oyler [01:57:05] We've got some friends who can prove that.
John Dehlin [01:57:08] Yeah. So they're treading. I don't know. I don't think they're like, there's probably no way the Church is going to excommunicate anybody. Because. Why? Why are you saying no?
Beau Oyler [01:57:17] Oh, because this is doing more for them. They're doing the dirty work here.
Julie Hanks [01:57:23] Well. And it's not trying to weaken anyone's faith. Even though it's more transparent than the organization of the Church is. The intent is not to weaken faith.
Beau Oyler [01:57:32] Yeah.
Julie Hanks [01:57:32] And that's I think.
John Dehlin [01:57:33] But I think Maxine Hanks would say that was true in 93 when she published a book on feminism.
Jana Spangler [01:57:38] I think most people would have been excommunicated.
Julie Hanks [01:57:40] But I think the leaders won't see this as weakening faith. And I think the leaders saw Maxine as weakening faith, and I think they're not going to see this.
John Dehlin [01:57:47] And that's weird because what this basically says is the prophet got it wrong. The quorum of the 15 got it wrong. And I'll even play a clip where they say that the Quorum isn't. Doesn't have unanimity. I'll play that really quick because that's also significant. Do that. Anyway. He also said in that general Conference talk that the proclamation on the Family was doctrinal.
Beau Oyler [01:58:09] The Family, a proclamation to the world. It qualifies according the definition as a revelation.
John Dehlin [01:58:17] He even uses a grammatical howler in there and would do well that the members of the Church to read and follow. That's not Boyd Packer. He was very precise. He wrote his talks out. He practiced them. This one, it looks like he spoke this far from. From the script. And they went out on a limb and tried to canonize it. The Church removed that part of his talk from the published version of his talk.
John Dehlin [01:58:52] Why did they do that? It must be what many of us have actually found out from conversations within the Church, which is that the brethren themselves, and I'm talking about the Quorum of the twelve Apostles and the First Presidency, the brethren do not have a unanimous position on the proclamation on the family. There are, according to sources that I've talked to, there are apostles that do not believe that the proclamation on the family should be canonized. There are others that do. So it is possible in the future that the status of the proclamation on the family could change.
Julie Hanks [01:59:28] It's interesting that we tout is one of our articles of faith, the principle of continuing revelation.
John Dehlin [01:59:34] As a people, as an institution, we are proud. We can pause it there. What. What do you guys think? Isn't that bold?
Beau Oyler [01:59:40] Yeah, it's super bold. Yeah. Because you're putting it right next to it. Right. It's like this happened. God said this, and then three years later, he changed his mind.
Jana Spangler [01:59:48] Absolutely.
Beau Oyler [01:59:49] And we're going to show you that happened right now with receipts.
Jana Spangler [01:59:53] And there were a lot of people who left the church when it was rescinded, not because they didn't agree with it, but because there was no recognition and no apology and no transparency. It was just throw God under the bus and God is playing, playing around with us like a cat and mice.
Beau Oyler [02:00:11] And no accountability for the lives lost and the families lost during those three years.
Jana Spangler [02:00:16] No reckoning. And that was as hard for people as for many as the initial policy.
Julie Hanks [02:00:23] The. The phrase, the doctrine of the family. I never heard until the family proclamation at trying. People trying to promote the family proclamation. I mean, did you hear it growing up?
John Dehlin [02:00:35] No.
Julie Hanks [02:00:36] There was no doctrine of the family. That wasn't a thing. And so I just think that's so interesting that, you know, we've created this doctrine to fight against gay marriage.
John Dehlin [02:00:50] It's illegal. It's. I think it's at its core, a legalistic argument, because you can't. You can't argue religious protection.
Julie Hanks [02:00:58] Right.
John Dehlin [02:00:58] If. If it's not doctrinal, whatever thing you're arguing for. So I think Oaks and others.
Julie Hanks [02:01:03] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:01:04] Had to create the proclamation on the family and this doctrine of the family so that then they could have legal standing right to fight against same sex marriage or to have the right to discriminate.
Beau Oyler [02:01:15] Yeah. And they. They tout that later on, I think in. In chapter four, in the next episode where they talk about how Utah all places pass new laws that are very inclusive for LGBTQ community. Right. And it was, like, celebrated. And at the same time, they also put in language that allows this religious freedom to discriminate legally. And so it's like, we'll give you the ability to get an apartment together as long as we can withhold blessings from you. Yes, that's the. That's the way I read it.
Julie Hanks [02:01:48] Me too.
Jana Spangler [02:01:49] Yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin [02:01:50] Really quickly. Here's the. Here's the clip on the reversal, which I think is powerful, that they admitted
Beau Oyler [02:01:55] it of God's children.
John Dehlin [02:01:57] So now we go three plus years into the future, and again, out of nowhere, there is an announcement that that policy had been reversed.
Jana Spangler [02:02:08] According to cnn, the Mormon Church said in a surprise announcement on Thursday that they will no longer label same sex
Julie Hanks [02:02:15] couples as apostates and will allow their
Jana Spangler [02:02:18] children to be baptized into the church without special approval from church leaders.
John Dehlin [02:02:23] Please disregard what we said three years ago. And that may be unprecedented in the history of the church. It's also caused a lot of heartburn for some of the more orthodox members who were locked into the idea that once something has the seal of revelation pasted on it, it's immutable. It wasn't. I'm reminded of Gilda Radner on Saturday Night Live. Y' all are maybe Julie's only one who remember Gilda. Rodney used to have this skit on Saturday Night Live where she would say something ridiculous and then someone would correct her and she'd say, oh, never mind. That feels like a nevermind.
Julie Hanks [02:03:03] Yeah, definitely.
John Dehlin [02:03:05] What were y' all gonna say?
Beau Oyler [02:03:06] Well, it's also classic, like, church behavior, right? We're going to make this big announcement because we received revelation from God. We're going to have bishops read it over the pulpit. I was instructed to read that part of the new handbook over the pulpit in church.
Julie Hanks [02:03:21] Really?
Beau Oyler [02:03:21] And I did. And then I said, if this upsets you like it upsets me, then we need, then come talk to me. Right. And you remember Sunny, who gave her interview, said that was the first time she ever saw a priesthood leader actually, like, say the thing that she was feeling. And so, I mean, we had active couples in our stake that, like, were families in our wards that now, like, they're apostates. And so what the church does, they big push to announce the. The revelation, the new policy, and then it just kind of disappeared. It wasn't a huge announcement. It was. It was all of us churning it up. But they don't do that. They just let it disappear. That way they don't have to apologize. They don't say we were wrong. They don't say God's playing games. They just throw them under the bus and let's just all move along.
John Dehlin [02:04:13] It was revelation when they implemented it, and it was revelation when they took it away. House always wins.
Beau Oyler [02:04:18] Yep. House always wins.
Jana Spangler [02:04:19] Absolutely.
Julie Hanks [02:04:20] And the damage done in those three and a half years, it just is heartbreaking. Heartbreaking. Just. I Mean, you, you've heard clients, right?
Jana Spangler [02:04:31] Absolutely.
Julie Hanks [02:04:32] People not wanting to live. People. Yeah. It was just so Jesus was not in that policy except for the little children. Okay.
John Dehlin [02:04:45] Oh, yeah.
Beau Oyler [02:04:45] And it was so obvious, right? It was just so obvious.
Julie Hanks [02:04:49] Yeah. And I think the thing, the first policy was so many active members were like, what is happening? And I mean, I remember crying for like two weeks straight, like, what is happening? This is not. This is not okay. Yeah.
Jana Spangler [02:05:04] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:05:04] And weirdly, if I'm remembering right, Thomas S. Monson was kind of out to lunch and senile at this point. And there's a pretty much a consensus that it was Nelson and Oaks. They kind of ram this through. And again, no accountability because we even know who likely did it.
Beau Oyler [02:05:21] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:05:22] And it's the current. Guess what, it's the current prophet and his right hand man.
Beau Oyler [02:05:25] Yeah. Who now have doubled down with the anti trans two pages policy in the handbook. Like, what other topic in the entire handbook has two dedicated pages to it?
John Dehlin [02:05:36] So I guess in terms of the documentary, we're saying this is amazing that they showed all this.
Beau Oyler [02:05:41] Yeah.
Jana Spangler [02:05:42] Put it in one place.
John Dehlin [02:05:42] They put it in. You know, they keep it. Keeping the story alive. Because Mormons forget stuff.
Beau Oyler [02:05:47] Oh, yeah. It's a very.
Julie Hanks [02:05:48] Right.
Beau Oyler [02:05:49] We're goldfish. Right. We forget very quickly. I also want to give credit to the church here too. Okay. Give credit to them that they made a huge mistake in 2015 and that three years later, a lot quicker than polygamy, a lot quicker than blacks in the priesthood. They overturned their own mistake. They didn't apologize. There was no justice. There was no, you know, but.
Julie Hanks [02:06:10] But they changed it.
Beau Oyler [02:06:11] They changed it. And kudos to them.
Julie Hanks [02:06:13] Yeah.
Beau Oyler [02:06:13] They learned from it rather quickly. A great risk.
Jana Spangler [02:06:17] At great risk.
Beau Oyler [02:06:17] Many, many members.
John Dehlin [02:06:18] But I think it was presenting an existential threat. I think this policy was presenting an existential threat.
Jana Spangler [02:06:24] You cannot come between people and their children.
Beau Oyler [02:06:27] Yes.
Jana Spangler [02:06:28] You're going to lose.
Julie Hanks [02:06:30] You cannot deny children baptism, blessings or priesthood and then say, well, they can do when they're 18. It's the same thing. It's like, well, then why don't we just baptize all kids at 18, right. Like, if it doesn't make a difference, why are we baptized?
Jana Spangler [02:06:43] And. And to think that that does not make a difference to a child who is wanting to be active in the church, that that does not make a difference to their experience in their youth program. Please.
John Dehlin [02:06:55] But Jenna, they are doing it with trans kids. They're still coming between parents and the trans.
Jana Spangler [02:06:59] Oh, they are.
Beau Oyler [02:07:00] Yeah.
Jana Spangler [02:07:00] And it's A big. It's a big omission that people have noticed in this documentary is that the trans is not even. It's completely left out.
Beau Oyler [02:07:09] Completely left out.
Jana Spangler [02:07:10] And, you know, again, filmed many, many years ago. But yeah, but they. They absolutely are still doing it with trans.
Beau Oyler [02:07:19] Yeah. And. And also there's a few times where we can give the benefit of the doubt, say, hey, I was filmed six years ago. It's a labor of love. I mean, it's all true. All wonderful. So why is it that the one topic that. That Robert called Jim and be like, hey, we got to get some historicity stuff in there on the Book of Mortal Mormon. Can you go ahead and just zoom this in? I need a couple of this, like, versus trans.
Jana Spangler [02:07:42] Agreed.
Beau Oyler [02:07:43] Versus the Instagram debacle of where the most, you know, we give. We give more authority to women in any other church in the world. Like, how are these things not covered? Oh, because it was six years ago. No, no, yeah, agreed. We know because Jim said. Yeah, he called me and said, oh, we forgot something. Let's go ahead and put a couple.
Jana Spangler [02:08:00] It's a huge omission.
John Dehlin [02:08:02] I mean, but I can see the trans issue is so explosive, especially the culture wars right now, for sure. I can see Jim just saying for the benefit of the project overall, it'll create more heat than light, maybe. So let's leave it out.
Beau Oyler [02:08:15] Yeah. You could also position though, as like, there are still things that are looming, like our trans kids, trans brothers and sisters, where we hope to see the day that.
John Dehlin [02:08:25] Yeah.
Beau Oyler [02:08:26] And then cite multiple, you know, references of how things have changed.
John Dehlin [02:08:30] Bo, do you want me to play the clip of the LGBT compromise or did you already make that point? I've got it ready if you want.
Beau Oyler [02:08:36] Remind me which one that is.
John Dehlin [02:08:38] I'll just play it.
Julie Hanks [02:08:39] You. You referenced this, but we simply gave additional rights to.
Beau Oyler [02:08:43] Oh, we already LGBTQ community and we
John Dehlin [02:08:46] gave additional rights to the religion that
Beau Oyler [02:08:48] we can legally, you know, discriminate in in our church.
Jana Spangler [02:08:52] Yeah. I thought this is really open minded at them to get on board with this. And then I saw the back deals and I'm like, oh, that makes sense now.
Beau Oyler [02:08:59] Yeah, now makes sense.
Jana Spangler [02:08:59] Now makes sense. Yes.
Beau Oyler [02:09:02] Yep, that's exactly what it was.
Jana Spangler [02:09:03] Because we've got to protect the instrument.
Beau Oyler [02:09:06] Yeah.
Julie Hanks [02:09:06] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:09:07] Really quickly. Let me play some quick comments. Julia says happy birthday. Happy anniversary, Mormon stories. This month is the 20th anniversary of Mormon Stories, so. And I'm horrible about celebrating my own podcast anniversary, so thanks.
Julie Hanks [02:09:25] That's a big deal. Congratulations.
Jana Spangler [02:09:27] Yeah, that is a huge Deal.
John Dehlin [02:09:29] Thank you. Thank you. Thanks. Thank you. Thank you, Julia, for mentioning it. A couple more thanks to Kevin, Kevin Pancake, for the support. And then M. Gunter writes, don't forget to like and subscribe. So YouTube pushes this panel to as many people as possible. Thanks for the support as well, M. And also, yeah, you can even forward a link of this. Of an inconvenient faith. Do that first. Share an inconvenient faith with all your believing family and friends, your bishops, your bishopric members, your elders, quorum presidents, your relief society presidents, stake leadership. Let's. Can we just say, blast this documentary to everyone. This should be groundbreaking.
Beau Oyler [02:10:11] Third hour, fifth Sunday, and every wardrobe. I know that doesn't exist anymore, but
Julie Hanks [02:10:15] it should be for every second hour.
Beau Oyler [02:10:17] Just second hour. Yeah, do the second hour fifth Sunday. Like, oh, my gosh, I would love for this to be distributed throughout the membership.
John Dehlin [02:10:24] Yeah, yeah. And then in addition, subscribe to Mormon stories like comment and share and donate as well.
Julie Hanks [02:10:30] And donate.
Jana Spangler [02:10:31] Thank you.
John Dehlin [02:10:32] Thank you. I'll take it. Okay, a couple more really quickly, and then we'll go back. So mtg, Danny boy writes, what criticisms do they have of you that you believe are fair versus what criticisms do you have of them? I don't even know who they and them are. Yeah, so we'll need a little bit more specificity to answer that question, but thanks for the super chat. Thanks to Salad Spoons and to Kevin Pancake for becoming new members on YouTube, as well as Hilda Gunner Aid's daughter. I don't know how to pronounce these.
John Dehlin [02:11:14] And then Alex Scott writes, thank you all for covering this. As a dad of two LGBTQ plus kids, this means the world to me. So thank you, Alex. We're really glad that you're finding this useful. And Doug Vincent, that's a familiar face. Love me some Mormon stories. Thanks, Doug, for the continual support. Okay, so those are some of the comments we're making. Okay. Velocity, progress. We should speed up a little bit. Maybe everyone else is laughing stories.
Beau Oyler [02:11:45] It's still the fourth Mormon story standard.
Julie Hanks [02:11:49] We're in eight hours, right, John?
John Dehlin [02:11:50] No, no, we're gonna try and do this in three. Hopefully. We'll try. All right, so we go into the next section, which is the LGBTQ part two. I believe Robert says that this is his favorite, one of his two favorite sections.
Same-Sex Attraction and the Cost of Staying
John Dehlin [02:12:07] So let's just play maybe a clip or two or three from that and. And comment older ideas. Even the church, which said in its website, mormons and gays.org this is not a choice, immediately began. Hedging and saying, well, it may not be a choice, but you're going to be held accountable for what you didn't choose to be. You know, that it's even a.
John Dehlin [02:12:32] A debate whether or not it's a choice is kind of crazy. I mean, so that's, you know, that's Greg Prince, but also Brandon Flowers, who is a believing Mormon. Devout believing Mormon. They're basically saying the church's position of, is it a choice? Is it not a choice to be gay? They're basically saying that's a ridiculous position. In 2025 or 2020 or 2010.
Jana Spangler [02:12:57] Agreed.
John Dehlin [02:12:58] Yeah. Any. Any comments on that? I guess they're just calling that out.
Jana Spangler [02:13:02] Yep.
John Dehlin [02:13:04] All right. Then they quote me from a. From a study I did for my PhD or my dissertation, which actually is an interesting finding. Julie's. Julie's, you're my fan today, giving John some love.
Julie Hanks [02:13:16] Thank you. Thank you.
John Dehlin [02:13:17] Thanks for that. All right, let's play that clip because I do think it's interesting that we're still talking about that. In 2011, I conducted a study with Dr. Bill Bradshaw of Brigham Young University to determine the optimal outcomes for LGBT Mormons. We surveyed 1,612 LGBT Mormons, and we were able to divide them into four main identity groups.
John Dehlin [02:13:41] The first group was those who denied their sexuality, the ones who just pretended to not be gay or found a way to convince themselves that they weren't gay, even though they were. The second group were those who compartmentalized, who publicly would present as heterosexual, but then they had their own private lives behind the scenes. Those two identity groups fared the worst in terms of depression, sexual identity distress, self esteem, quality of life, et cetera. The third group were those who just abandoned their religion altogether and left the church. They definitely had better outcomes than those first two groups. What surprised us was this fourth group.
John Dehlin [02:14:21] In this fourth group, these were LGBT Mormons who found a way to be openly LGBT in their congregations and to remain active in the church. But what we were able to find was that those who did not have to choose between their religiosity and their sexuality, but they could integrate them together in a lived LDS experience, had the lowest depression, the lowest sexual identity distress, the highest self esteem, and the highest quality quality of life. Jan, I'm seeing a lot of head nods from you.
Jana Spangler [02:14:53] Oh, yeah. I mean, I. I've, I've worked and I've known a lot of people that are trying to reconcile their, you know, their identities within the LGBTQ and then also with their faith and that. That is no small thing. And everyone's got an opinion about their lives, about what they should be choosing.
Jana Spangler [02:15:16] And I've heard people say, which. Which one of my arms would you like me to cut off? Because they're so deeply part of me. Both of these. And we make it nearly impossible for people to make that happiest choice. We make it nearly impossible for them to make that choice of incorporating and integrating all of who they are. I think the vast majority of us would. I mean, we couldn't even fathom having to choose between our lives, living and loving and connecting with people and choosing to create families with the person we love and our faith. Can we even. Can those of us who are heterosexual even get our brains around what kind of a choice that would be?
Jana Spangler [02:16:04] It's. It's, it's just. It's horrific for people, anyone who is in that. That place. And I've seen people make all of these choices, and I've seen people be happy making all of those choices. Actually, I think it can happen that statistically we're better off when we can be authentically who we are and then have a place of belonging, being exactly who we are. And we are terrible at offering belonging. We're great at inviting people to be with us and fit in and make us. Don't make us uncomfortable. Be with us. We'll make space for you as long as you just fit this particular mold, whether it's LGBT issues or doubt or anything else.
Jana Spangler [02:16:50] But we are not good at offering belonging. Bring all of who you are and see what we can benefit from in being with you. So it doesn't surprise me at all that that is the happiest way. We just. And it's a very small percentage. Why? Why? Because it's really hard and we are not helpful in it. I mean, you've got, you know, the beautiful story. Dear friends, John Gustav Raffle. Love him and. And his story is going to be challenging for anyone wherever you are and heartwarming wherever you are.
John Dehlin [02:17:20] Those who don't know what she's talking about, do you want to. Basically, he. He was gay Mormon return missionary, all the things. Was excommunicated, married his partner, gay partner, and then years later felt called back to attend church. And he attends church faithfully as an excommunic, gay, more excommunicated gay Mormon. I think to this day he does.
Julie Hanks [02:17:43] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jana Spangler [02:17:45] And. And I. I mean, and there are people that are able to do that. He's fully embracing both to the. To the fullest that he is able to. Because he, and he still hopes, it says in this, in this documentary, he hopes and believes that he will be able to be baptized someday. I don't know. No one knows. Jury's out. But I do believe that, that people like him, and it takes an enormous amount of, of love, trust, humility, and really strong conviction of who he is that he arrived at in a spiritual way, in a connection with God. Like, I, I, I just think that there are very few people who can hold on to themselves in that way, given the current, current setup and attitudes.
Jana Spangler [02:18:36] And he is also, again, church roulette. He's in a place that really embraces him. Really embraces. He's in Minnesota, and he really, he's his, his husband is embraced.
John Dehlin [02:18:49] I think his husband, who's never been Mormon and is black, attends church with him.
Jana Spangler [02:18:53] Yeah. And I think not always. Not always. And he has no interest in being part of it. That they, that he's embraced by the people. He's embraced by even, like, area authorities in the area. Like, they have a unique situation. Good luck doing that in Utah. Good luck doing that in certain places, you know.
John Dehlin [02:19:12] Other reactions.
Julie Hanks [02:19:15] No, just, I mean, what you're saying,
John Dehlin [02:19:17] Bo, you were in one of those wards and stakes that was trying its best to welcome LGBT people to the
Beau Oyler [02:19:25] point where our stake president, once again, amazing man, called all of us bishops together and just said, you have to stop giving temple recommends to gay members who are, you know, together with people like, you just have to stop. Because what happens is you give it to them, they come to me. I can't give it to them, and now it's my fault.
Julie Hanks [02:19:46] Don't make me the bad guy.
Beau Oyler [02:19:48] He didn't say those words exactly. And he was very lgbtq. Affirm me, like, this is a very progressive, very good man. So I don't put it on him whatsoever. Obviously, I put it on the institutional church. But yes, I mean, we had many families in the Oakland stake who were totally happy. We had a member of the high council who was openly gay temple worker. Right. So, like, it was as much as you could progress in that. That's what was happening there.
John Dehlin [02:20:15] So in 2025, and I'll have you weigh in on this too, Julie. The. If you hear a documentary saying, hey, and it's me saying it, by the way, hey, Dan Mormon. That's the best outcomes.
Beau Oyler [02:20:26] It's starting to happen. Charlie Bird and Alpine. Right. He and his husband are active in their ward, and from what I understand, totally accepted. And so is it healthy and safe
Jana Spangler [02:20:37] to recommend this yeah, that's what I was gonna say. I think we have to be so careful. There are so many families and friends and leaders around people that are trying to encourage people. Well, look, you're going to be happiest if you do that. Well, there's a small. That there, there's a reason it's a small percentage.
John Dehlin [02:20:56] Bishop roulette.
Jana Spangler [02:20:57] Right, It's Bishop Roulette. There is so much like. And it is not healthy to tell a person you need to do this because you're going to be healthy. You're not going to be. If you're not in one of those words, you're going to be traumatized developmentally.
Julie Hanks [02:21:10] The person has to be in a place where, where they want that and they can tolerate the tension of trying to hold two contradictory parts of their own identity. I mean, that's hard, hard work.
Jana Spangler [02:21:20] And let's not hold it up as you are more morally superior if you're able to do it.
John Dehlin [02:21:25] But also there's going to be wards, like, let's just say southern Utah, Utah county, northern Utah, Rexburg, parts of Idaho that are going to be hostile.
Jana Spangler [02:21:35] Absolutely.
John Dehlin [02:21:35] And potentially, I don't want to say violent, but definitely, you know, gay, same sex, married Mormons are still getting excommunicated.
Beau Oyler [02:21:44] Yes.
John Dehlin [02:21:45] In 2025.
Julie Hanks [02:21:46] Right.
John Dehlin [02:21:46] So you, you face the possibility of being excommunicated if you try and do what John Gustav Rothal does.
Jana Spangler [02:21:53] Yeah.
Beau Oyler [02:21:54] It shows the bias of the, of the documentary and rightly so. Right. It's like, hey, if you want to stay in the church, let us show you a few examples of how we do this. Right. You don't, you don't have any interviews of someone who I was return missionary, married in the temple. Now I'm, you know, left my family, but I'm with my husband for 20 years. Thank God I left the church 20 years ago or thank God I was excommunicated because I've never been happier. Like, you're not gonna get.
Julie Hanks [02:22:19] That group was the ones who, who left. Who left and.
Beau Oyler [02:22:22] Yeah.
Julie Hanks [02:22:23] And embraced their LGBTQ identity. Right. So the message I got from that research is like, don't compartmentalize or, or be in denial. Whatever way you go. You have to.
Beau Oyler [02:22:35] Yeah.
Julie Hanks [02:22:35] You don't have to, but. Well, it's healthiest to embrace it and
Jana Spangler [02:22:38] we have to be careful who that message is going to like. I want, I love that study and I, the people I want to listen to that is the church. I don't want to put that burden on the LGBT people. Like here now, this is what you need to aspire to. No, we need to. We need to care about what is good for people.
Beau Oyler [02:22:58] Yeah.
Jana Spangler [02:22:58] And what makes them happiest and healthiest and most connected to God. And on the. Go on a gospel path of, you know, being a good person and being Christ, like, and transforming and doing all of the things that we aspire to. I want the church to listen to that. We need to give that one to the people in power, not to the people.
Beau Oyler [02:23:18] And they've got. They've got a thing coming also that. That they're beginning to address with this. So I was on a hike with a very close friend, totally orthodox, totally active member of the church, and we were back in the hills in Moab, like, just the two of us all day long, and we were diving deep on some stuff. But I'm always very careful, very respectful. I'm not out to, like, break anybody's testimony or introduce them to stuff that, you know, they haven't learned or haven't dug into. But I asked the question, is there anything that you. That would be like that thing where you're just like, I can't be a member of this church anymore.
Beau Oyler [02:23:48] Clearly God's not at the helm. That was my question. And he said, yeah, of course. And I was like, really? And I'm expecting, you know, like, whatever. And he said, if the church ever changed its policy on gay people and they just accepted it and there was, like, gay marriage was okay. I would know that it was. God was not running this church then
Jana Spangler [02:24:11] I wouldn't feel that way.
Julie Hanks [02:24:14] That's the same as. As giving the priesthood and temple ordinances to black members of the church. Right. People left the church then.
Jana Spangler [02:24:22] And it's the same thing as we're getting rid of polygamy or we're doing polygamy, or, you know, any big thing like that is going to do it.
Beau Oyler [02:24:28] Yeah.
Jana Spangler [02:24:29] Yeah. So giving women the priesthood.
Beau Oyler [02:24:33] Totally. So they know that that's kind of. That. That's there. And so we got to start. We. They got to start, like, you know, slowly warming that water.
Jana Spangler [02:24:43] I mean, would we be better off if we had not changed this, The. That. The policy about Black people in 1978. Would we be better off? I mean, we've got to not be afraid of the ripples in order to do the right thing.
Beau Oyler [02:24:55] Great.
John Dehlin [02:24:57] Let's play one more clip, and then I'll ask you a final question about the LGBT stuff, and we'll move to race and women.
Beau Oyler [02:25:03] And I had this journey that God had been with me on And I
John Dehlin [02:25:06] knew that I was, you know, I
Beau Oyler [02:25:09] was okay with God and.
John Dehlin [02:25:10] And that I was with the person that I was supposed to be with. And I was like, how does that work?
Beau Oyler [02:25:15] Like, I know the church is true, but the church says this, and that
John Dehlin [02:25:19] doesn't fit with what I know is true in my personal life.
Beau Oyler [02:25:23] Ultimately, I can't reconcile it.
John Dehlin [02:25:26] I. I can't. I can't deny that there's a conflict,
Beau Oyler [02:25:30] and I. I can't personally reconcile it. All I know is I have these
John Dehlin [02:25:34] two truths in my life, and I hold them both. And.
Beau Oyler [02:25:40] And I trust that things will work out.
John Dehlin [02:25:42] We need to come to a place of true unity and love.
Beau Oyler [02:25:46] And.
John Dehlin [02:25:47] And when we're. When we're in that place, then we'll
Beau Oyler [02:25:51] be ready for whatever the Lord.
John Dehlin [02:25:53] More the Lord has to reveal to us about this. So from my point of view, it just. There's a time that's going to require
Beau Oyler [02:26:00] some patience on our part.
John Dehlin [02:26:03] So patience is. The theme is I. I want to hear your reactions to that. On the one hand, I'm like, that's the pinnacle of spirituality, like, holding two opposing truths. And in a culture that literally pathologizes you and makes many want to die, I'm going to stay committed to it and faithful in it and even loyal to it and just be patient until, you know, the church catches up with what's true. On the one hand, I want to say, that's amazing. Do you all have similar feelings and thoughts or different feelings and thoughts?
Julie Hanks [02:26:38] Different. What I was just thinking. I'm just struck by how sincere he is and how his personal relationship with God and Jesus is driving the ship, not the relationship with the church. And I think that's really important if for people who are trying to hold to opposing truths, like, they have to either leave or go deeper in their spirituality personally and not necessarily with the organization, if that makes sense.
Jana Spangler [02:27:08] 100%. Yeah, this. This brings up big thoughts for me. I recently. And I'm terrible with names, so someone might have to help me with this person who. So I listened to a podcast. This is going to seem out of left field, but it was on Ezra Klein with the New York Times, with the trans congressperson.
Patience, Advocacy, and LGBTQ Lived Experience
John Dehlin [02:27:30] Yeah, yeah.
Jana Spangler [02:27:30] Sarah. Yeah, I can't remember her name, but it was one of the most poignant, heartbreaking things. I just. I cried through it because I have this heart to want to just fix it all now. Like, can we just open our hearts and stop excluding people and meet people where they are and all of this. And she has such wisdom. Spoken in what it takes to be patient. And she made a comment like, we can be morally pure in this and say we need, we need everyone to see us right now. And you know, we can and we will be doing that from the Gulag.
Jana Spangler [02:28:11] And it's a heartbreaking reality of this work, whether it's civil rights work or any kind of social justice or anything. It is heartbreaking work. And it is painfully slow. And it is too slow for people in pain and for people who are losing their lives.
Jana Spangler [02:28:29] And we don't have a choice because if you try to go faster than the center of gravity of whatever group you're with, it's going to break and it's. And it's going to go really, really badly for the most vulnerable, vulnerable people.
Jana Spangler [02:28:47] And I hate every part of that. And yet it is such a way. I encourage everyone to go listen to that conversation. It was mind blowing for me to hear someone speak to that with such courage and also such vulnerability being in that position. So that comes up for me when I, when I think of this and the patience that we need and all of that can be used as a weapon.
Jana Spangler [02:29:11] We could use it as a weapon and saying, well, you just need to be patient. Because what we're trying to do is not sit in the pain with somebody. And. But I don't know. When I was baptized, it's my understanding that part of that was to mourn with those who mourn. And we suck at that.
Julie Hanks [02:29:28] I was just thinking that we're so
Jana Spangler [02:29:30] bad, we are so bad at it, we forgive.
Julie Hanks [02:29:34] Move past it.
Jana Spangler [02:29:35] Let. Let's explain it in a way that will make you stop needing to feel any pain.
Julie Hanks [02:29:40] Because I'm in pain when I see you in pain. And I need to get myself out of pain.
Jana Spangler [02:29:44] Exactly. And, and it, it's, it's just, it comes in the way of everything. And I think Christianity has become this cult of innocence. That's Nadia Bowles Weber, who said this. We want to be pure. Everyone wants to be pure. We want to be morally pure. When we leave the church, we want to be morally pure. We want to point out how the church people are not pure enough for us. And it makes it so we have no one has patience for anyone. We've got to get messy, we've got to get dirty. We've got to get patient. And we've got to stop telling other people what they've got to do in this fight.
Beau Oyler [02:30:14] Moral superiority.
Jana Spangler [02:30:15] Oh my gosh, we're so good at it.
Beau Oyler [02:30:17] So I don't know, John the guy who's speaking on it. I love him, though.
John Dehlin [02:30:23] Yeah.
Beau Oyler [02:30:23] Like, I just love him. And there's a couple of things that came to mind. So I, a few years ago, started what I call the BO Bible. So it's just a note that I keep track of, like, the things that bring me really, like, spiritual people are
John Dehlin [02:30:35] going to request that now. By the way, John, send me the
Beau Oyler [02:30:38] bow Bible work of love over many years. So the second thing. Okay. The number two entry in it is a quote from F. Scott Fitzgerald. The test of a first rate intelligent intelligence is the ability to. To hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function. And that's what he's doing. Right. That's what John's doing. And I love that. And the. When I. When I watched this specific segment. Yes. As part of the LGBTQ chapters. But you could just copy and paste stamp this on every single one of the chapters, because the process that he's going through of becoming spiritually independent and spiritually confident is what we all need to do. And what I had to do to go from a pretty spiritually immature person, even though I thought the opposite.
Julie Hanks [02:31:32] You're religious, but not spiritually so.
Beau Oyler [02:31:35] So spiritually and emotionally mature. To be able to say this is what I feel is right. It's contrary to what the brethren are teaching. I'm not going to do it out of rebellion. I'm going to do it out of respect for myself.
Julie Hanks [02:31:54] Amen.
Beau Oyler [02:31:55] And then to do that again and again and again, which each. With each of these topics that we have dissonance over. And he just told that story so perfect. So he's like copy and paste it on every single one of these topics because that's how we become spiritually mature and emotionally mature.
Jana Spangler [02:32:11] Right.
Julie Hanks [02:32:11] Integration is mental health when you're an integrated human being with. And you can hold all the parts of yourself. And so it's. Yeah. Beautiful example in. In what John has said, when we
Jana Spangler [02:32:24] can meet all the reality we can bear.
Julie Hanks [02:32:26] Yeah. Yes.
John Dehlin [02:32:27] I love that. It's beautiful. And I do worry. I. I remember I stayed in the church 13 years after I stopped believing, and at some point, I don't think that was healthy for me. I. I tried really hard. I almost felt a relief sometimes that I got excommunicated because it was so hard psychologically to stay in.
Jana Spangler [02:32:51] Yeah, absolutely.
John Dehlin [02:32:51] I'm trying to think if I was gay or lesbian or trans. Oh, trying to do that.
Julie Hanks [02:32:57] Yeah. You're in a marginalized group who's misunderstood
John Dehlin [02:33:00] Yeah, I was a straight white male.
Jana Spangler [02:33:01] Yeah. Right.
John Dehlin [02:33:02] Right.
Julie Hanks [02:33:02] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:33:04] So is it, you know, I go back and forth. Is it irresponsible to give this message of, like, well, there's John Gustav Rathel, there's Charlie Bird. Have patience. Is that literally asking people to kind of lay down on the railroad tracks?
Julie Hanks [02:33:19] I think what. What you were saying, though, is important, that it. That's not just a message for LGBTQ people. It's for all human beings to integrate the disparate parts of ourselves.
Jana Spangler [02:33:31] So it's absolutely.
Julie Hanks [02:33:32] That. That's a. That is one path, but we can never say for another human being what the path is for them or to be patient or to. That's for us to learn and for ourselves.
Jana Spangler [02:33:43] And I.
Julie Hanks [02:33:44] And I.
Jana Spangler [02:33:44] And I. I share your concern, John, because it's. It's way too often used as a. As a. As a weapon, as a. I know what's best for you. I. You can do this. See, these other people are doing it, and there's just not enough personal circumstances taken into consideration. And that is a discernment every single person needs to do. And we need to let people do it. We need to support people doing it, and we need to support them in their decisions and believe them when they are feeling called to any particular decision. This is like discerning a divorce. Like, it's very similar. You know, no one can tell someone else whether this is the best decision for you, and you don't know yourself. All you can do is take a step and see.
Beau Oyler [02:34:32] Yeah. This is a common theme throughout the whole thing, though, right? It's like, of course they're giving the examples of the people who are staying in and making it work. So one thing I did is I downloaded all nine episodes of the YouTube videos, and then I ran them through AI to create a transcript, and then I brought the transcript into chat so that I could ask chat if you few questions, one of which was around bias. Actually, like, a hundred of them were around bias.
Beau Oyler [02:34:58] And I just wanted to know from a data standpoint, like, what was the bias and how much so. And so on. And so one of the specific prompts it took me a little while to get to was the bias of celebrating those who stay in versus celebrating those who leave. Not just recognizing, but celebrating. Like Jim said in one of the first comments, right. Jeremy wrote the CS letter, and it was valid that he left. I read the CS letter, and it was valid that I stayed. Like, that's great. It was 20 specific comments of staying in to five specific comments of celebrating leaving. Right.
Beau Oyler [02:35:38] So four to one. Four to one was. Is the data. That feels right. Right. And so, of course, in the lgbtq, they're get. Well, in all the chapters, they're giving those examples of, here's how you stay in. That's why it's a. An instruction manual. I just think it becomes dangerous when we get to chapters three and four with LGBTQ to show. The only examples that you show are happy, thriving people in the challenge in the stride, the striving and the tension.
Julie Hanks [02:36:06] The options.
Beau Oyler [02:36:07] They are such the exceptions.
Julie Hanks [02:36:09] And.
Beau Oyler [02:36:09] And we're touting that now to say this is the way to do it. Now they're saying this is a way to do it. But nonetheless, I just think that's the only chapter where it can become dangerous.
Jana Spangler [02:36:19] Well, and five. I mean, race. Yeah, we'll get to that. Yeah.
Beau Oyler [02:36:24] Yeah. It's a good point.
John Dehlin [02:36:26] Yeah. So I. In. In Robert's defense, I don't think anyone in the film is saying gay people need to stay in the church or should stay in the church, although it can be weaponized.
Jana Spangler [02:36:37] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:36:37] When. When an orthodox member sees something like this and says, see?
Beau Oyler [02:36:41] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:36:42] Which is what you're saying. So I don't think that's the intent of the filmmaker, but that's also what
Beau Oyler [02:36:45] Mormons and gays did. All of those interviews from people who are. Here's how we're making it work. You go to Faith Matters, and you listen to that BYU instructor. I don't remember his name, who has, like, a hundred kids to. He has, like, six kids, and he's like, I'm gay. I'm openly gay. I've got a huge Mormon family, and
John Dehlin [02:37:00] I'm in the church, and I'm talking about Time Mansfield.
Beau Oyler [02:37:03] Right. And I'm sitting there just, like, getting lower and lower, and my seed just going, oh, this is not helping.
Julie Hanks [02:37:07] The.
Beau Oyler [02:37:08] This is one very unique option that's being touted as everybody should do this
John Dehlin [02:37:13] should have a big red or everybody could do this. It should have a big red warning label saying, this could be very hazardous.
Beau Oyler [02:37:19] Exactly.
John Dehlin [02:37:19] To your health.
Julie Hanks [02:37:20] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:37:20] And your odds of making this work are extremely low.
Jana Spangler [02:37:23] Well, any real conversation about this, we have to be really responsible with in. In lots of areas. But I know Tom Christofferson had that same feeling with his book. His book is necessary. His book. Book is so helpful to. For people to gain some understanding and acceptance. John Gustav Raal's story is really important. Like, and they did it different. Different ways. But I. But it. I know that caused heartburn for people I know it caused heartburn for Tom Kristofferson to have that. He saw it used as a weapon against young gay people. And that is not. That was not the intention. So it's really tricky to have these kinds of conversations.
Jana Spangler [02:38:02] And because, well meaning people will. Will use it as a weapon, we can use toxic positivity in the same way for people with doubt, like, just leave it alone. I don't know. All of it is. It's super, super, super tricky because.
Jana Spangler [02:38:21] Because people who are in that doubt place also do need to hold on to some positivity, which is hard to do for sure. So all of it's tricky.
Beau Oyler [02:38:29] Yeah, it is.
John Dehlin [02:38:30] And I guess kudos to the filmmakers because what's the LGBT bias? It's literally the church has gotten it wrong.
Beau Oyler [02:38:37] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:38:38] That the church is not healthy for LGBT people and that the church needs to improve and hopefully will someday. That's pretty bold. That's a pretty bold message for faithful, active church members. Agreed to be sending.
Jana Spangler [02:38:51] Yeah. And while it's not a great ratio, where else are you getting five to one? Totally getting out in the church.
Beau Oyler [02:38:56] Yeah, for sure.
John Dehlin [02:38:58] Yeah. All right. Okay, so. So I guess now the next topic is race, and we have to find a way to go faster. We're not gonna have time, but so really quickly, you know, talk about a marginalized group, that it's not healthy for them to remain. Remain. You know, dry. Scre is one of the first people I had on Mormon Stories podcast. He's. He's a. He was an African American, you know, black journalist that you turn it, Julie. Clockwise and then. Yeah, sorry, Julie had to go. Step out for a minute. Darius joined the church as a black man who was a journalist before the priesthood ban, which is crazy, you know, amazing and also crazy. And this is him talking about when he was past the sacrament.
Race, the Priesthood Ban, and Church Accountability
Beau Oyler [02:39:53] He's such a star in this, by the way.
Jana Spangler [02:39:56] This is my favorite episode, actually.
John Dehlin [02:39:59] Okay, well, let's just play a little bit of dryness just to give people a sense. I am reminded of a Sunday sitting in sacrament meeting in an LDS chapel, sitting in the center section on the aisle, and having the sacrament presented to me. And I partook of the sacrament. Then I reached for the sacrament tray to be able to pass it on to the person next to me. And the good brother who held that tray quickly withdrew it so that my hand could not even touch the handle. And he reached around me and passed it to the next person. What a story to share.
Jana Spangler [02:40:46] Oh, man.
John Dehlin [02:40:46] Right, yeah. Yeah, we'll play just for the sake of time.
Beau Oyler [02:40:52] Do you have the other ones too? Like, I think the other quotes are really important too.
John Dehlin [02:40:56] Which ones?
Beau Oyler [02:40:57] Well, meaning members. Like things that they said to him about there was the sacrament and maybe.
John Dehlin [02:41:02] I think I have next two or three others.
Jana Spangler [02:41:03] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Julie Hanks [02:41:04] As.
John Dehlin [02:41:05] As you would encounter and talk with individuals. Comments such as, well, Brother Gray, you're living so righteously. I can see already you're starting to lighten. And if you continue to follow the gospel, your skin will become lighter and lighter. They saw that as a compliment. I did not.
Beau Oyler [02:41:31] All right, so. So I love. You know, so it's so easy to get. Oh well, you know, Mormon culture. Like this weird cultural stuff that. Like, who knows where that came from, you know? Yeah, I'll tell you exactly where it came from. I'll say exactly. It came from President Kimball at state conferences and regional conferences, parading Native Americans who'd been placed with white families and joined the gospel and showing how their skin got lighter. Yes, that's exactly where from a prophet, seer and revelator. That's where it came from. And so for him to then receive this from members of like, oh, wow, like your skin's getting lighter. You've been a member for how long? This is amazing. Like, that's real stuff, man.
John Dehlin [02:42:15] That.
Beau Oyler [02:42:15] That's not.
Jana Spangler [02:42:15] That's just.
Beau Oyler [02:42:16] That's not just crazy people with old ideas. That's people listening to their prophet.
John Dehlin [02:42:21] Yeah. And. And for those who don't know the history, the first. First presidency of the church signed a declaration in the 50s affirming that the priesthood ban was doctrinal. So. And Bruce R. McConkie and Joseph E. Lee Smith published books sold. Published by the church, sold by the church called Mormons Mormon doctrine or doctrines of Salvation. Affirming that black people were black because they were less valiant or fence sitters in the pre existence. And there's a whole series on this called Second Class Saints, based on our amazing book called Second Class Saints by Matt Harris, where we dig deep into this. It's a great series, highly recommend it. But it's horrific. The church's history with race and the members were literally just following the teachings of the prophets.
Jana Spangler [02:43:08] Absolutely. And I think one of the reasons I loved this episode so much is there's just. It's full of truth telling and it's full of truth telling that that challenges our inherent bias that all of us gained just by being born and into this and being raised in it and hearing those things. And there are implicit messages that just get deep into Our psyche. We all have them. And I don't know, this gets into my definition of, of what a prophet is. This, this episode is full of prophets, prophets speaking truth, meaning, dry us and meaning. And all of them. Absolutely. If they are truth tellers, because they can see something the rest of us can't see inherently. And so we, that's. We. We need to listen to these people. I think that's what a true prophet is.
Beau Oyler [02:44:02] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:44:02] Yeah. So. So having said that, there were a little bit of apologetics that sat wrong with me, and I know that in the modern era, maybe I'm not allowed or supposed to have opinions about this, but, you know, I don't. I think it's. I think it's bigotry to like, not have thoughts or response just because you might be responding to a minority group. Like, I. We have to be able to talk about this stuff. So even though it, you know, some might be hurt by this, I'm going to play a clip that was a little bit hard for me to hear. Well, the Book of Mormon, they talk
▶ Video Clip 3Video Clip 3 [02:44:46] about this curse of black skin. I think that the curse of blackness is countenance. You know, I've seen some very white
Video Clip 3 [02:44:53] people that were very dark. You don't get to determine or you
Video Clip 3 [02:44:57] don't get to decipher for me what something means.
Video Clip 3 [02:45:00] And I'm not going to allow you
Video Clip 3 [02:45:01] to place something on me that God
Video Clip 3 [02:45:03] didn't take that same concept. And think about the white people that
Video Clip 3 [02:45:07] have left the church. If that was a true skin color,
Video Clip 3 [02:45:11] white folks would be back in the church so fast because they would turn black.
Video Clip 3 [02:45:13] How many white people that turn black
Video Clip 3 [02:45:16] because of their unrighteousness from leaving the
Video Clip 3 [02:45:18] church would come, oh, hell no.
Video Clip 3 [02:45:21] I love that, Lord, this black skin, I can't take it.
John Dehlin [02:45:25] They be back, the Mormons. So on the one hand, just to be clear, I have no problem with people interpreting the Book of Mormon how they want to, and I'm not opposing her interpretation. What I do have a problem with is apologists that say the Book of Mormon, when it said skin, it meant tattoos or furs that they were wearing or countenance instead of it literally meaning dark skin.
Julie Hanks [02:45:53] This is new theology.
Beau Oyler [02:45:54] It's new.
Julie Hanks [02:45:55] This is new theology. This was not taught my first 50 years of life, and I heard it about what, five to 10 years ago, people started floating this idea and now it's become really popular, but that the curse was. The curse was countenance, not actual skin color. When it's pretty clear in the Book of Mormon that it's, they're talking about skin color.
Beau Oyler [02:46:19] Yeah.
Jana Spangler [02:46:19] And I, I want to acknowledge the difference between a white person or an apologist or somebody who is trying to soften that message or, you know, make it go away, which is dishonest, and somebody who is directly affected by it saying, you don't get to interpret this for me. And I get to interpret it in a way that is more in line with what is Christ like. Right. So big, big difference.
Julie Hanks [02:46:57] It's a much better interpretation.
Jana Spangler [02:46:59] Well, it is.
Julie Hanks [02:46:59] I mean, I, I, I hope that's what it means.
Jana Spangler [02:47:02] Like, and I would be fine with someone saying this is the way we've interpreted and it is so messed up.
Julie Hanks [02:47:08] Right.
Jana Spangler [02:47:08] It is so messed up.
Julie Hanks [02:47:09] It's so racist.
Jana Spangler [02:47:10] It's so racist. This is not how God feels about his children, their children. This is not, this is not okay. And also, maybe we can start recognizing that there's a better way to look at this.
Julie Hanks [02:47:27] Yeah.
Jana Spangler [02:47:28] And better use of the language. But let's not forget, let's not forget where this came from. Let's not back away from how painful that's been and how harmful that's been.
John Dehlin [02:47:39] Yeah. Yeah. I'll play a clip that quotes Gordon B. Hicley's little flicks of history response. And I want to see what you guys think about this. Brigham Young said Cain slew his brother and the Lord put a mark upon
▶ Video Clip 4Video Clip 4 [02:47:58] him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Orson Pratt has advocated for black male voting rights in 1852, and Brigham Young stridently rejects that with racism.
Video Clip 4 [02:48:09] He says we just as well give
Video Clip 4 [02:48:10] mules the right to vote as Negroes and Indians. What we're trying to do today is to make black people equal with us. And my voice will be against that
Video Clip 4 [02:48:19] all the day long.
Video Clip 4 [02:48:20] He says we now in fact have a speech in 1856 where Pratt, an anti slavery speech where Pratt actually says that there is no proof that Africans are descendants of Cain. He's suggesting that multi generational curses are not a thing.
Video Clip 4 [02:48:36] God may in fact, in the Bible
Video Clip 4 [02:48:37] curse a generation or curse a person. Right. But that's specific to that time and place and it certainly doesn't pass down through the generations. In other words, he's really sticking with the second article of faith that, you know, people are punished for their own sins and not for Adam's transgression.
Video Clip 4 [02:48:57] It's behind us.
Video Clip 4 [02:48:58] Look.
John Dehlin [02:49:00] That's behind us. Don't worry about those little flicks of history. Yeah. So on the one hand, with the Gordon McGinkley, it's kind of like a sandwich with the Gordon B. Hinckley quotes. It feels like this documentary is kind of dismissing or downplaying the problems. And then that's, you know, in the middle of that sandwich are quotes that are basically saying there were church leaders early on who weren't as racist as others. So, anyway, I don't know. What did y' all think of. Of that segment?
Julie Hanks [02:49:32] Gordon B. Hinckley's quote of don't. Don't get bogged down with these little flicks of history is so incredibly dismissive to people of color who it impacted. Right. It's easy for anybody who's not impacted by it to say, oh, well. Oh, don't bother. You know, well, women vote. Who cares if they didn't vote for, you know, hundreds of thousands of years or, you know what I mean? It's just like, you can't say that about another group when you're the one that's not impacted. Just feels really disrespectful and dismissive and hurtful.
Jana Spangler [02:50:04] Absolutely. So minimizing to say, little flex of history. This is actually the bulk of our history.
Julie Hanks [02:50:10] Right.
Jana Spangler [02:50:11] And we, we have to reckon with it. I. I just, you know, don't know if it could be dealt with in a 60 Minutes interview.
John Dehlin [02:50:17] I wonder why they included those clips. You know what I mean? That's what I'm wondering. I guess we would be speculating.
Jana Spangler [02:50:24] Well, and yeah, I mean, it. It could be a lot of things, but it, it could be that they just wanted to show how inadequately we've dealt with it.
John Dehlin [02:50:34] Okay. And that's. That's a valid.
Jana Spangler [02:50:36] And. And it could be that to show, like, no, really, you can't just say. Because there. A lot of people do say, well, you know, it was just how the world was. Everyone was racist. And so that's actually challenging that to say. Actually, there were people who were not. And we need to reckon with the fact that Brigham Young was, was. And. And it wasn't just that he was a product of his time.
Beau Oyler [02:51:01] Yeah, I love the part two where the sisters and Sisters in Zion where she said, oh, so God wants a big church.
▶ Video Clip 5Video Clip 5 [02:51:11] If the church of allowed blacks to
Video Clip 5 [02:51:13] have the priesthood before 1978, because of the social climate of the time, then people wouldn't have joined the church, you
Video Clip 5 [02:51:24] know, because of how people felt about blacks. And immediately I'm. I'm like, okay, I will repeat back to them.
Video Clip 5 [02:51:29] So here's what you are saying to me.
Video Clip 5 [02:51:31] God wanted a big church full of
Video Clip 5 [02:51:35] racists instead of a song smaller Church full of non racist, black, brown and white people.
Video Clip 5 [02:51:44] So God needed to cater to the racist so that the.
Video Clip 5 [02:51:48] Like, if we could have a big church of racists. One of the hardest.
Julie Hanks [02:51:52] That is. That's probably the best sound bite of the whole series. It's just, it's so good because it's like, it just shows how that apologetic sound just does not make any sense.
Beau Oyler [02:52:07] And. And then once again, copy and paste that across almost every episode. Right. Oh, the Lord wanted a big church of homophobes. Right.
John Dehlin [02:52:16] Or haters
Beau Oyler [02:52:19] misogynist. Right. Then a small church of. And then it begs the question of like, well, if this is Jesus's church, why isn't it leading all of these things versus following 30, 40 years behind?
Julie Hanks [02:52:31] Yeah.
Apologies, Reconciliation, and Darius Orr
John Dehlin [02:52:32] There's a really moving part in this chapter, this segment about the fake apology that Jonathan Streeter published. So we won't play that just for the sake of time, but make sure you watch these because that was yeah, that was so.
Julie Hanks [02:52:48] I. That was the most proud I was of my.
Jana Spangler [02:52:51] I was like, we've turned a corner.
Julie Hanks [02:52:53] Like, we're healthy. This is like, this is like the dream of what the church should be.
John Dehlin [02:52:59] And when the fake apostle. I was like. And you thought it was real?
Julie Hanks [02:53:02] I thought it was real for the. Well, for the hour that I thought it was real.
Jana Spangler [02:53:05] Right.
Julie Hanks [02:53:05] You know, but I was like, this is, this is my church. Like, I'm so proud. And then it was. I can't imagine being a black person. And like, I just. The gut. I mean, it was traumatic for me and I privilege as they come. So it was. That was awful. Like the.
John Dehlin [02:53:28] It was kind of darkly brilliant.
Beau Oyler [02:53:30] Jonathan street is one of the smartest people. I mean, he's just so brilliant. And that was just dark and it
Julie Hanks [02:53:36] was just so real. That's. It was just perfectly. Yeah, yeah, it was perfectly done.
John Dehlin [02:53:41] Anyway, check out that.
Julie Hanks [02:53:42] Yeah, don't miss that.
Jana Spangler [02:53:43] It was. And also it caused a lot of, A lot of pain.
John Dehlin [02:53:48] Oh, no, of course.
Beau Oyler [02:53:49] Yeah, for sure.
John Dehlin [02:53:50] That's what I'm saying.
Jana Spangler [02:53:51] Yeah. And that. It does. Yeah, it does shine a light on. I mean, if the church could just see how many people, not just black people, like your experience, like so many of us, so many of us would are just like, oh, maybe this is, this is something I can trust this organization. Maybe this is something that I can be proud of being part of. Take the hint. Like, yeah, it, it's. It is a good thing. I mean, back in early 90s when I'm at the business school at the University of Utah. I remember them in a. In a PR class just talking about how brilliant it was that, you know, when companies would. Would take responsibility for harm and how they were always so afraid that that was going to make their stock price crater, but then it actually ended up doing the opposite. I wish the church could understand this.
Beau Oyler [02:54:45] Yeah. Yep. And then we get into prophetic fallibility.
John Dehlin [02:54:50] Yeah.
Jana Spangler [02:54:50] Yes.
Beau Oyler [02:54:50] And that's why we can't go there.
Jana Spangler [02:54:52] Absolutely. But I wish we could understand the healing power of truth and being trustworthy.
John Dehlin [02:55:00] Gotta end with Darius just really quickly. But his don't let nobody turn you around is again, all civil rights song. And it basically says, don't let nobody turn you around. Turn you around.
Julie Hanks [02:55:15] Don't you let nobody turn around. Don't you let nobody. And.
John Dehlin [02:55:25] And I'll bring that to the memory of these individuals. Let them know if you have a testimony of this faith. If you have had that and you joined and have felt that you were in the right place, don't let these circumstances turn you around. Don't let people run you off. Hold your ground. Hold your faith. Be hurt. Acknowledge it, it's real. Have a voice, speak to it. But don't let yourself be turned around.
Beau Oyler [02:56:02] Turn you around.
John Dehlin [02:56:03] Don't you let nobody. So should we all go back.
Beau Oyler [02:56:09] Such complicated feelings with that. With. With that. Right. Because once again, it ends on this. You know, here's. Here's how you don't leave. And
John Dehlin [02:56:23] gosh, it. Yeah.
Beau Oyler [02:56:26] Just had to sit with it.
Julie Hanks [02:56:27] Individual. It is journey that it's. Yeah. Like that's good for him. And I know a lot of other people of color. That doesn't work for that. It's not best for them. And so.
Jana Spangler [02:56:42] Yeah, it's. It's both an important part of the conversation. It is how people do it, who really want to do it. Yeah.
Julie Hanks [02:56:48] Yeah.
Jana Spangler [02:56:49] And also it doesn't mean you should do it.
Beau Oyler [02:56:52] Yeah. And that's why Darius and Eugene Orr and the Genesis group in general is so important. Right. So important as that safety blanket, as the. Let us show you how to walk this path that for 150 years we weren't welcome to walk.
Jana Spangler [02:57:07] Absolutely.
Beau Oyler [02:57:08] And that's a beautiful thing.
Women's Roles and Equality in the Church
John Dehlin [02:57:12] Well, the next section is women. And so you too.
Beau Oyler [02:57:18] Oh, we got this. John and I will do this.
John Dehlin [02:57:25] Let's go to the clip. Bad joke.
Jana Spangler [02:57:28] One of the biggest problems that we're facing within Mormonism today is the fact
Julie Hanks [02:57:31] that women aren't able to know in
Jana Spangler [02:57:35] the same way that men are.
Julie Hanks [02:57:36] For example, women's even personal revelation could be contradicted. By a priesthood leader, someone who has authority over them.
Jana Spangler [02:57:46] I think this is deeply troubling because it can actually work to undermine women's
Julie Hanks [02:57:51] confidence in even just private revelation and personal inspiration.
Jana Spangler [02:57:55] But then that grows to a much deeper level where women have to second guess themselves. They don't have this what I would
Julie Hanks [02:58:04] call epistemic confidence that they should have, but they learn to be reliant on men and on the structure of the church.
Jana Spangler [02:58:12] I need to decisions for my life based on what I thought God expected of me in terms of career, having, being married, having children, supporting my husband. It was always a supporting role. I started to feel the deep pain of being in an organization where my opinion would always come second. I could always be overridden by a man. And there's no. Never a space where a woman has an equal say, where her input can carry the day. If.
Julie Hanks [02:58:50] Well said, Diana.
Beau Oyler [02:58:52] Very well said.
Julie Hanks [02:58:53] Thank. Yeah, yeah.
Jana Spangler [02:58:55] I mean I, that what Deidra said that. Shakes an epistemic confidence. I've never put it in those words.
Julie Hanks [02:59:07] I know that's a brilliant way to say it is.
Jana Spangler [02:59:10] She's, she's, she's brilliant. But yes, there is this. I see it in my office all the time and, and it's not just the women but it's really bad with women.
Julie Hanks [02:59:24] Well, men are given permission to continue to self develop at least career wise or education or. And, and women are rarely the main character in their own life.
Jana Spangler [02:59:37] That's right.
Julie Hanks [02:59:38] And like you said, you know, supporting character. And I think personally my experience, I was just rebellious enough that as a teenager I, I didn't follow the prophet. Like I made that conscious decision to go. Well God's telling me to go to school and to start a business and to write songs and, and the prophet's not gonna answer for my life. So I've gotta, I've gotta do my life. And it was in that moment that I was like, I'm the main character. And I had to claw my way through the cultural baggage to do that. Like it's just, just, I mean literally clawing to. Because the world's not set up in the church to support women being the main character in their life.
Jana Spangler [03:00:24] That's right. And then what it does for someone like me.
Julie Hanks [03:00:26] Me.
Jana Spangler [03:00:26] Yeah, someone like me who I really, I needed God to be proud of me. That was like my reason for being. And there are a lot of reasons for that I won't go into. But it was really important for me and so I was going to do it the right way and I was going to follow. I mean I, I grew up. I, I mean I was a teenager in the 80s, you know, when this was a very strong message from Ezra Tough Benson of what we were supposed to do. And I was convinced of it. And I now look back and I'm so sad. I was super judgy of people like you.
Julie Hanks [03:01:03] Yeah.
Jana Spangler [03:01:03] Right.
Julie Hanks [03:01:03] Yeah.
Jana Spangler [03:01:04] I felt my sister was like, I'm
Julie Hanks [03:01:05] sure that's the clawing and Right. Like the, yeah. Just trying to cut through all of the judgment.
Jana Spangler [03:01:11] And it didn't just come from men, it was coming from women like me because I had bought in. I had sacrificed so much. And it's been one of the biggest things that I have had to reckon with in the last few years is people like me, the women like me who really internalize that message. How to make it hard for women like Julie who were able to, to make themselves a main character. I was, I was very judgmental of that. And it's something that I've regretted since I look back and I, I've had to do my own grief work and mourning over what I gave up. And also this like, I, I, I've had to go through all of the emotions of what I thought about someone like Julie and now deal with like, oh, I wish I could have had that. I wish I could have had that at an earlier age.
Julie Hanks [03:02:02] Right. Right. And I don't, I think sometimes it gets boiled down to like, did you have a career or not?
Jana Spangler [03:02:07] Yes.
Julie Hanks [03:02:08] And you can be a stay at home mom and be the main character and be doing your work and have passions and be living your dreams and
Jana Spangler [03:02:15] it's a really good point.
Julie Hanks [03:02:15] Right. And you can also have a career and go to school and, and not be developing parts of yourself.
Jana Spangler [03:02:21] 100. I mean I'm, I'm a person who would have chosen a career. So it comes across that way when I say it. Right.
Julie Hanks [03:02:26] Because that was my, that wasn't what you went against your.
Jana Spangler [03:02:29] I went against my internal compass. Exactly. And I absolutely want to honor. There are women who are called to doing that and to, to you know, doing what I was able to do. And there are women who want to do what I did.
Julie Hanks [03:02:43] Yeah. And aren't able jealous of people who are like, so couldn't wait for the next soccer game or just like, I'm going because I love my kid.
Jana Spangler [03:02:51] Exactly.
Julie Hanks [03:02:51] Like this is the last thing I want to be doing right now.
Jana Spangler [03:02:53] That was me.
Julie Hanks [03:02:54] And yeah, I was jealous. I'm like, I wish I could want what God, the prophet tells me. God wants Me to want. But I want that and a lot of other things. And so that's selfish.
Jana Spangler [03:03:06] Absolutely. And. And I will just say one thing about that. Epistemic. You know. Yeah. Women do come into my office. Just honestly, for some, it is. So I'm sure you see this too, Julie.
Julie Hanks [03:03:23] Every client, pretty much, right.
Jana Spangler [03:03:24] Where it's like, well, tell me what you want.
Julie Hanks [03:03:27] What never thought.
Jana Spangler [03:03:28] And literally they sit there and cannot figure out what they want because they've. That it's actually a muscle that has to be developed developmentally over time, and it gets shut down.
Julie Hanks [03:03:41] Yeah. Yeah. So I tell the women in my practice every day, check in. What do I think? Feel, want and need.
Jana Spangler [03:03:47] Yeah.
Julie Hanks [03:03:48] Like, if you can answer that just any given moment, like, you're developing a self. That's good.
Jana Spangler [03:03:53] And if you think that that is easy, it is not.
Julie Hanks [03:03:56] Right.
Jana Spangler [03:03:56] It is not people. How do I trust myself? How do I do that?
Julie Hanks [03:03:59] Like, you practice.
Jana Spangler [03:04:00] How do I do that?
Julie Hanks [03:04:00] Yeah. And I have trusted myself for whatever. I think it's rebellion, really. Like, I just go, well, I'm just gonna do what I want to do. And I've never regretted it. Never. When I've. So I've been practicing that for 40 years. And so for the women out there, like, it's worth it to. To do that work, to. To be in charge of your own life.
Jana Spangler [03:04:28] Absolutely. I didn't start doing the work. If it makes anyone feel better. I didn't start doing that work until maybe my 40s. And. And I can say with confidence today, it's been so worth it. Like, I. There's a freedom that comes from trusting yourself that just opens up possibilities that you just can't even believe. And that is so. Feels so dangerous to orthodox people, men and women. It feels so dangerous.
Julie Hanks [03:04:59] Well, it is, because you might choose the wrong. You might.
Jana Spangler [03:05:04] Yeah.
Julie Hanks [03:05:06] You know, or you might.
Jana Spangler [03:05:08] You might choose. I mean, this is the thing we've got to leave room for. When you can actually choose to be
Julie Hanks [03:05:17] part of the church, you might leave.
Jana Spangler [03:05:19] Well, you. And you might stay with joy.
Julie Hanks [03:05:22] Yeah.
Jana Spangler [03:05:23] And not just out of duty.
Julie Hanks [03:05:25] Right. If you don't have a choice, there's no.
Jana Spangler [03:05:28] If you can't say no to something, you can't say a full yes to something unless you can say no. That's a problem for everybody, not just women.
John Dehlin [03:05:39] Julie, I have a question.
Julie Hanks [03:05:40] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:05:42] Everyone who kind of starts to feel the heat of possible church discipline, you can usually kind of reduce it to one or two things.
Julie Hanks [03:05:51] Was it.
John Dehlin [03:05:52] Was it your messages around being a woman in the church that might have been the biggest causes for the heat you've experienced.
Julie Hanks [03:05:59] Or do you know, the two things that my church leader mentioned were criticizing policies. So there were two policies, because I don't criticize the leaders. Like, I consciously don't do that. And I don't say the church isn't true or, you know, anything like that. But I did say that the trans policy that you talked about, I said this is really harmful and perpetuates stereotypes. And then I said, when they were cracking down on garment wearing, that was last year, I said, this feels really targeted to women because garments are made patterned after male underwear, not female underwear. And so of course it's going to be harder for women to wear them because they're not patterned after women's underwear. So I, those. I criticize those two policies, and those were the two specific things that my state president brought up.
John Dehlin [03:06:51] But as I experienced, the reasons they give you are often going to be different from the real reasons.
Julie Hanks [03:06:57] Right.
Julie's Church Discipline and Women's Empowerment
John Dehlin [03:06:57] So do you have suspicions about how much you got in trouble for your messages around being an empowered woman and women's role in the church?
Julie Hanks [03:07:09] I'm sure that's part of it. Right.
John Dehlin [03:07:10] Because what would be the things you said that maybe.
Julie Hanks [03:07:13] Well, just this message for women of, like, this is actually your life. You. And you're the only one who can live it, and only you can live your dreams. And like, you don't have to be a mom, you don't have to get married.
Julie Hanks [03:07:30] And if you don't, you're still as valuable. Just kind of women's empowerment and empowering women to make their own choices. Also calling out that women are not equal in the church, like, there's. It's just a fact. And it's like, well, I've always felt equal. Okay, that's great. And you're not, like, we can quantify it, you know, and just kind of saying that, that women are not equal. Even if you, if you feel like it, you're always trumped by a man. Your. Your revelation, your decisions. There's always a male.
Julie Hanks [03:08:11] And someone just, just today said on a Facebook post or Instagram post, like, so you're saying that women have no voice. You know, when you're talking about the largest women's organization in the world, I said run by men, like, overseen by men. You know, that's just an example of. There's. Even the top female leaders are overseen by men. And that is not equality. That's not an equal voice. And so I'm sure all of that, because I kind of say the things that a lot of people feel or think but don't know they can say and do.
John Dehlin [03:08:45] A lot of leading women reach out to you. Oh, yeah, Say they agreed or felt, oh, yeah, the same way.
Julie Hanks [03:08:51] Yeah. Or like, no, you gave. I've had so many people say, like, I went back to school. You know, you encouraged me to go back to school, or you encouraged me to start painting again, or you and your work encouraged me to, you know, go back to work that I love or whatever. So, yeah, I feel like in some ways I've been able to make a difference that feels good.
John Dehlin [03:09:15] And then in some sense, my instinct is that one of your biggest offenses was gaining too large of a following.
Julie Hanks [03:09:23] Right. No one cares. If no one cares what you have to say, then no one. The leaders don't care. Right. But yeah, it was really. People started coming after me after I got to over a hundred thousand followers. It was like, okay, what, who is this and what is she doing? And you know, she's weakening faith and yeah.
John Dehlin [03:09:45] Yes, beautiful. I'm loving this. I know Bo is too. All right, let's go to the next clip.
Jana Spangler [03:09:52] Meetings at church, if you look at a picture of our leaders, it's all dark suits and then like four colors of pink, purple, red and yellow. And it's four women sitting up there and they'll put a little spotlight on them to say, see, we're not sexist. How many women go and speak at men's meetings? I have been taught by men my whole life. Men telling me how to be a woman. I, I can go on lds.org and google woman, and it's mostly men telling me how to be a woman. You don't have any talks, any at all from women in the church, Women in leadership telling men how to be men. And so there's just sort of.
Julie Hanks [03:10:30] I love that.
Jana Spangler [03:10:31] Yep. I love that quote 100% because. Yeah, yeah, we have, you know, when it's the women's session of conference of three men speaking. Exactly.
Julie Hanks [03:10:40] And a couple, maybe two or three women.
Jana Spangler [03:10:43] If this is a women's organization, let the women speak and let the women's inspiration be the message.
Julie Hanks [03:10:49] And I've had to undo the message of self sacrifice given by men to women because that is not the. That's a message men need to hear. Generally, it's not a message women need to hear. They're already self sacrificing. They need to hear take care of yourself. And so that's an example of the problem of having primarily men speaking to Men and women, is that they're saying things that actually can be hurtful or damaging to women's development.
Jana Spangler [03:11:17] 100%. And I think we have a problem because the women, typically, not always, but a lot of the women who. Who are chosen to lead are women who have taken in the men's message about how women should be. So I don't even think it's enough necessarily just to say women need to speak. We do need that.
Julie Hanks [03:11:40] Yeah.
Jana Spangler [03:11:41] And also, we've got to also excavate within ourselves the messages we've internalized. And see, it's not an easy thing in an institution like ours to find that genuine women's voice inside us.
Julie Hanks [03:11:56] Right.
Jana Spangler [03:11:57] And there's going to be a wide range of that. I'm not saying there's one. Right way. We need them all. But we've got to be aware of the. Of the influences that have gotten deep in us with our inherent bias again, you know.
Julie Hanks [03:12:10] Right.
Beau Oyler [03:12:12] So how can I ask a question?
Julie Hanks [03:12:14] Yes, you may, Bo. You may speak.
Jana Spangler [03:12:17] Questions are allowed. Out.
Beau Oyler [03:12:18] Thank you. How do you process the current church leadership? Right. Who are professional women who've had careers, owned law firms, you know, and now are out on the tour going. No, like, they're not saying I disobeyed the prophet. That's what they're not saying. But what they're saying is, you know, you can be all of the things.
Julie Hanks [03:12:41] Girls, there's huge uproar drawer. Oh, yeah, about that.
Jana Spangler [03:12:45] Yes, there is.
Julie Hanks [03:12:46] Yeah. Like, how. How dare you hold up someone who, like, I sacrificed my dream of being a doctor to stay home because the prophet told me to. How dare you become an attorney and a successful one at that, and then be held up as a. As an example? I think it is. I think it's a step forward, right, to. I think just anytime we have variety in terms of who we hold up as. As examples, I think that's good. But I think it's been really painful and has felt kind of gaslighty to women who. Who followed the prophet and gave up on their dreams. Jana.
Jana Spangler [03:13:28] Yes, 100%. I mean, I want people like you, people like Camille to be, you know, to be highlighted. I want my daughters seeing that. I want. I want people having that permission to say, hey, I am following what, you know, what I want to do.
Julie Hanks [03:13:48] Right, Right.
Jana Spangler [03:13:49] I want that. And also, again, it's without context. We never give the full context. We never have the full conversation. We just want to put this out there, like you said, without saying she was being disobedient to do so you know, which good honor I'm glad she was. And I wish I had had that. And I, and to bring balance to all of it again, I, I would want us to highlight women who may. Who were so excited for the soccer game to be, to be really celebrated for the choices they were able to make.
Julie Hanks [03:14:26] That felt really rigid gender roles. There's, there's no choice.
Jana Spangler [03:14:31] Right.
Julie Hanks [03:14:31] And so you, like you were saying, you can't do it joyfully because it's, you have no choice. It's just like, well, this is just your path. And I think it's the same for men too. Like you are to be the provider. You are to be the, the priesthood holder.
Jana Spangler [03:14:44] Absolutely.
Julie Hanks [03:14:44] And it. Rigid gender roles hurt everyone.
Jana Spangler [03:14:47] Yeah.
Julie Hanks [03:14:48] Because you cannot choose, you know, consciously and freely. There's punishment if you're not choosing the. The mold.
Jana Spangler [03:14:58] That's right.
John Dehlin [03:15:01] Love it. This next clip actually deals with a situation that I think, BO, you have insider information on just because I think it happened in your neck of the woods. So let's go ahead and roll that.
Jana Spangler [03:15:13] And they felt seen and powerful, sadly,
Julie Hanks [03:15:17] although the practice didn't cross any boundary.
Jana Spangler [03:15:19] Provide.
John Dehlin [03:15:19] Why don't you give a little context? Because I think the clip doesn't give the context.
Beau Oyler [03:15:23] Yeah. So Amy Jensen's the first one that we're going to hear from. I love Amy. She was the young women's president. And when I was the bishop, we had sister awards that shared, you know, we shared most, most resources. Amazing person, lover. Also shows Carolyn Pearson in this, in this segment shows our old chapel in Walnut Creek. It's great. And the reason is because for many years, multiple generations of bishoprics, the Berkeley Ward, the Oakland Ward, the Lafayette Ward, like the wards had.
Beau Oyler [03:15:51] It wasn't official. Right. But it was like special assistance to the bishop. And it was a female bishopric. It was women who sat on the stand every single Sunday. It was women who were in all of the priesthood leadership meetings, who were in the councils, who were not just giving input, but it was, they were seen as like a female bishopric. And it was beautiful. And it's just like the way it was for, for, I'm not gonna say forever. Right. But for like a long time.
Beau Oyler [03:16:19] And it just wasn't an issue, it was celebrated. And then a general authority newly assigned to the area started visiting wards and he started seeing this happening and he waited until the Oakland Stake president was on a two week vacation. He came back to the stake, visited it had the women come off the stand and announce that there will be no women on the Stand. Not just. Not your female bishopric. No women will be on the stand. And then he went to the Palo Alto stake, into the same thing, and I believe the San Mateo stake, and did the same thing. And so any stake that he then heard had women on the stand representing any type of authority and leadership. He came through and just swept them off the stand. Then any bishop who put resistance is now released. They're gone.
Julie Hanks [03:17:09] No, seriously.
Beau Oyler [03:17:10] So I have a. Yeah, I have a. I won't get into personal stuff. I have a friend who was bishop and it was very against this happening, and he is no longer bishop.
Jana Spangler [03:17:20] Wow.
Beau Oyler [03:17:20] Yeah. So part of a bigger thing for sure. So Amy, totally active member of the church, like, just wonderful person, was just like, where did this come from? What is happening? We were doing something very good to show our daughters that. That you can lead, you can have power and authority in this organization. And you just came.
Julie Hanks [03:17:40] No, you can't.
Beau Oyler [03:17:41] Yeah, exactly.
John Dehlin [03:17:42] Just kidding.
Julie Hanks [03:17:42] Just kidding. You can't.
John Dehlin [03:17:44] Never mind.
Julie Hanks [03:17:45] Yeah, never mind.
Beau Oyler [03:17:46] Yeah, never mind. This was not sanctioned. It didn't break the handbook. There's nowhere in the handbook that says fear based.
Jana Spangler [03:17:51] It's fear based. Right.
Julie Hanks [03:17:52] That person didn't want to get in trouble from the person, the man. And you know for sure.
Beau Oyler [03:17:57] And the 70 oftentimes do the dirty work.
Jana Spangler [03:17:59] Right.
Beau Oyler [03:18:00] They're the hardliners who come in and do the dirty work so the brethren can come in and be soft and gentle and.
Julie Hanks [03:18:04] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:18:05] I don't know whether I can let the first presidency in the quorum of 12 off the hook because it's hard to imagine the mid tier general authorities doing that level of intervention without running it by the higher ups.
Beau Oyler [03:18:20] Maybe there was a gap in time where he came and saw and then came back weeks later, strategically, when the state president was on vacation and started making these changes.
John Dehlin [03:18:29] But that could have been what Kurt McConkey or some president of the 70 told him to do.
Beau Oyler [03:18:34] Totally.
John Dehlin [03:18:34] I mean.
Julie Hanks [03:18:35] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:18:35] All right, well, let's go and play the clip that. That we have.
Beau Oyler [03:18:38] Oh, by the way, Amy didn't know she was going to be in this documentary.
John Dehlin [03:18:40] Oh.
Beau Oyler [03:18:40] So I texted her. I'm like, you're amazing. She's like, it was a total surprise to me.
John Dehlin [03:18:45] We got the footage from somewhere else.
Beau Oyler [03:18:47] Yeah. She's been all. All over from women. Women on the stand.
John Dehlin [03:18:51] Okay, okay. All right, let's go ahead and play a little bit of that.
Jana Spangler [03:18:54] And they felt seen and powerful. Sadly, although the practice didn't cross any boundary provided by gospel doctrine or by the handbook, our words And Stakes were asked to discontinue the practice of having all three women Stake Organization presidents sit on the stand during the stake conference and to halt the custom of inviting Relief Society presidents to sit on the stand during sacrament meetings. Many women in Bay Area are left questioning the reason for this latest edict.
John Dehlin [03:19:20] This whole thing just really took me
Julie Hanks [03:19:23] by surprise at first.
Jana Spangler [03:19:24] It was painful. For the last eight years, in my sake, women have been on the stand in different capacities. Just as a reminder, hey, women are represented, right? It's just a good visual reminder. I do not believe that the brethren
John Dehlin [03:19:40] in Salt Lake understand that what's going
Julie Hanks [03:19:42] on with women is a big deal.
Jana Spangler [03:19:47] Like, how do we make this better? How do we.
Julie Hanks [03:19:55] It's such a, like, it just shows how women, it's like, we'll celebrate any little tiny thing. Like, and then it's like, take it away. Right? I mean, sitting on the stand, who. It's not hurting anyone. Threatening male authority.
Jana Spangler [03:20:13] What are we so afraid of?
Julie Hanks [03:20:14] Right?
Jana Spangler [03:20:15] Like, literally, I mean, I know authority, but, like, no, like, really, what are we.
Julie Hanks [03:20:18] What, women are going to take over the church?
Beau Oyler [03:20:21] Yep.
Jana Spangler [03:20:22] What are they afraid of? What's going to happen?
Julie Hanks [03:20:25] You might think you have authority. You might think you have a voice in this organization.
Jana Spangler [03:20:31] And I, I just don't quite understand it. And I don't know if all the men understand it either. Like, we need to be asking this question.
Julie Hanks [03:20:41] Yeah.
Jana Spangler [03:20:41] We need to be able to.
Julie Hanks [03:20:43] It's not saying ordain women. It's not, it's like, have our female leaders be recognized by sitting on the stand. Yep. It's a crumb. Yep.
Jana Spangler [03:20:53] I, I, I'm just baffled.
John Dehlin [03:20:56] And the documentary makes this point that we don't even talk about it. I'll go ahead and play that clip really quick.
Jana Spangler [03:21:04] Sister Joan Chittister, who is a Catholic nun, I heard an interview with her where she was being asked about the fact that in the Catholic Church, the women do not have priesthood. And I really resonated with what she said, which was, you know, it's a separate issue whether women are ordained priesthood or not. The big problem is that we don't even talk about it.
John Dehlin [03:21:31] And I remember, just briefly, I remember when the ordained women stuff was happening, they ran a poll of what percentage of Mormon women actually wanted the priesthood. And I remember a higher percentage of Mormon men wanted Mormon women to have the priesthood than Mormon women.
Jana Spangler [03:21:49] Yep.
Julie Hanks [03:21:50] Do you know why?
John Dehlin [03:21:50] No. Tell us.
Julie Hanks [03:21:51] Yeah, well, this is according to me, but I've talked with thousands and thousands of women because they're afraid they're going to be doing everything. So if men were partners at home, women, More women would be thrilled to have the priesthood, I think, but they don't want to do the things that men are doing and do all. Everything that they're doing. So I think if. If there were more partnership in the unpaid labor of family life, then women would be a lot more willing to step into that.
Jana Spangler [03:22:23] Yep, I think so. And I also, speaking from someone who was very threatened by ordained women when it came out, like, I. I know, I'm telling you, I am not a born feminist. I was. I. I came to this late in life, and it really took me doing some deconstruction work to even get there. Like, I was raised in a very conservative family. My politics were very conservative. I was a Republican delegate as recently as 2010, you know, so. So I come from. I really kind of have a finger on the pulse of what some of this is. Right. I think there is also this thing, and we see it whenever some policies we haven't liked or understood get changed. You'll see. See a certain number of people fighting against it. It's the same thing as the women who fought against women's suffrage.
Julie Hanks [03:23:26] Right. More women didn't want the vote than did.
Jana Spangler [03:23:29] It's the women who fought against the era. It's the women who. Because when you have accepted, you've done the work to accept that all is right with the world and this is the order of the universe or the order of God. Yes, it is really hard to accept that actually things were just not great.
Jana Spangler [03:23:53] And psychologically, it feels better to know, to feel like everything is right in the world than to accept that it may not have been great. So I heard women, when things change in the temple and become more equitable, that was really hard for a lot of women.
Jana Spangler [03:24:10] When people could. When kids could start calling from their missions and they could talk once a week. That was hard for a lot of people because they'd internalized that there was some virtue in only letting people talk to their kids twice a year. So, you know, I think that's a really. It's a. It's a hard thing to accept.
Jana Spangler [03:24:31] And you've come up with all kinds of. You've done the mental gymnastics and you've come up with all the reasons why this is better this way.
Beau Oyler [03:24:42] You've endowed it with virtue.
Jana Spangler [03:24:44] You have.
Beau Oyler [03:24:45] And that's hard to undo.
Jana Spangler [03:24:46] Absolutely.
Beau Oyler [03:24:47] And you have necessity.
Jana Spangler [03:24:48] I had stories. I had stories that women that wanted priesthood. It was a selfish thing. They didn't really understand the priesthood. I didn't understand what it was about. Definitely. I've heard these messages all the time as well. Then we'd be doing all of the work. And I mean, there's so many damaging messages for men and women that come out of patriarchy, and we've just internalized them all. Like, you know, men. Men just wouldn't. Wouldn't show up for anything if they didn't have the priesthood.
Julie Hanks [03:25:12] They're not as righteous as women. Women don't need the priesthood.
Jana Spangler [03:25:15] Please.
Julie Hanks [03:25:16] They're more righteous.
Jana Spangler [03:25:17] Right. It's. It's so damaging.
Julie Hanks [03:25:21] Put me on a pedestal, please.
Beau Oyler [03:25:25] An untouchable pedestal.
Women Leaving and the Question of Authority
John Dehlin [03:25:27] What did y' all think about the inclusion of this. This one clip in the documentary entitled I Don't have to Push at All.
Julie Hanks [03:25:37] In the workplace, women have to push
John Dehlin [03:25:39] really hard to have their voices heard.
Beau Oyler [03:25:41] A lot harder than you have to push here.
Julie Hanks [03:25:43] I don't have to push at all.
▶ Video Clip 6Video Clip 6 [03:25:44] People are asking, what do you think? I sat down in my first meeting, an executive directors meeting, and I thought, well, I'm just going to sit here and I'm going to observe. And I got, well, Sister Johnson, what do you think?
Video Clip 6 [03:25:56] Very first meeting, very first day.
Video Clip 6 [03:25:58] Very first day. And it was sincere interest in what
John Dehlin [03:26:03] I thought about a particular point. Like, why. Why do y' all think that was included? And what'd you think about that quote? That was a church leader. Right.
Julie Hanks [03:26:11] Supposed to be positive. Right. But. But who is it that someone has to be showing interest and that someone is male? Well, the. The men I was around, they listened to me. Right. But it's. The irony is, it's. Right. It's still be. I. I'm allowed to speak because a man is interested in what I have to say.
Jana Spangler [03:26:34] Yeah, but what happens when that woman has an opinion that the man doesn't hold?
John Dehlin [03:26:39] Yeah, yeah.
Jana Spangler [03:26:40] Not just a. Like, you know, let me give you some insight into this. And they're like, oh, I didn't know that. That's great. No. What if she. She says something that the men don't want? Who wins?
Julie Hanks [03:26:50] Right? Never.
Jana Spangler [03:26:51] This will show you. You don't have. I thought this because I was in lockstep with the Brethren. And so I was one of those. Well, they always listened to me. They always listened to me right up until I started having some deconstruction and I was a little bit vocal about things.
Jana Spangler [03:27:06] And then you start to see real quick who's. Who's listening to and who's not and that you have zero say as a woman. I've seen Other men, you know, progressive Mormons who have been able to have more influence because people will listen to them. Well, oh, you've been a bishop. I'll listen to what you have to say. If I say it, everyone is just giving you the side eye and the eye roll and the, oh, she's dangerous now, you know, so. Yeah, exactly. It has to be initiated by a man. She would have just sat there if the man hadn't said, what do you think?
Julie Hanks [03:27:39] Yeah. So good. Like, I'm glad that happened, but very glad. Still at the mercy of men.
Jana Spangler [03:27:46] Absolutely.
Julie Hanks [03:27:47] In. In my experience, everywhere else in my life, I feel empowered, I feel equal. I feel like people value my voice. Except at church, the only place that
Jana Spangler [03:27:58] was the other part of Joan Chittister, what she said that did not get included. Oh, she went on to say that. And it was in the context. It was on. On being. And Krista Tippett was asking this, and it was in the context of her being a feminist and saying, I'm a feminist.
Julie Hanks [03:28:13] Yeah.
Jana Spangler [03:28:14] And she said that. She says, I'm looking at these girls that are in first grade right now, and they are going to be living in a world where their voice is going to be valued everywhere by the church. And what does that say about God's love?
Julie Hanks [03:28:26] Right.
Jana Spangler [03:28:27] For women.
Julie Hanks [03:28:28] Right.
Jana Spangler [03:28:29] Like it. And it is. It is becoming more stark.
Julie Hanks [03:28:32] My daughter place left in. In the US They.
Jana Spangler [03:28:37] They're looking at and like, why. Why would I want to.
John Dehlin [03:28:39] It was the Catholic Church.
Jana Spangler [03:28:41] Yeah.
Beau Oyler [03:28:41] Well, it's religion.
Jana Spangler [03:28:43] Well, it's religion.
John Dehlin [03:28:45] Okay.
Jana Spangler [03:28:45] Okay.
Julie Hanks [03:28:45] Yeah.
Beau Oyler [03:28:46] I mean, imagine the difference of. Sister Johnson, in her interview had said. Finished and said. So she finished with the quote. Was Sister Johnson like, what's your input? Imagine a meeting in which somebody was moving things along. Right. It's like, Sister Johnson, what's your decision?
Jana Spangler [03:29:03] Exactly.
Julie Hanks [03:29:04] Right.
Beau Oyler [03:29:06] Makes all the difference.
Jana Spangler [03:29:08] Absolutely.
Julie Hanks [03:29:08] What have you decided?
Beau Oyler [03:29:09] Never happen.
Julie Hanks [03:29:10] Yeah.
Jana Spangler [03:29:11] What have you decided?
Julie Hanks [03:29:13] Yeah. I think the younger generation of females are not having it.
Jana Spangler [03:29:18] That's right.
John Dehlin [03:29:19] Are young women leaving the church at a higher rate than men?
Julie Hanks [03:29:22] Yes. Women in general?
Jana Spangler [03:29:23] Yes.
Julie Hanks [03:29:24] I mean, in my family, boys are in, girls are out. It's just right along gender.
Jana Spangler [03:29:29] And we're just going to blame that on. They're following the world.
Julie Hanks [03:29:31] Right.
Jana Spangler [03:29:32] People are following the world.
Julie Hanks [03:29:34] It's not. It's not that. It can't.
Jana Spangler [03:29:36] It can't be us. It can't be that.
Julie Hanks [03:29:37] It's not equality.
John Dehlin [03:29:38] Now, so what did y' all think of this? And we'll end this section with this quote. What did y' all think of. And not to put women against women, but what'd y' all think of the Maxine Hanks? You know, it's all there. Really unfortunate.
Jana Spangler [03:29:51] Today you see a lot of feminists leaving the LDS Church and going to other churches and being ordained or getting ministerial training or undertaking formation paths in other traditions because they think it's not there. They think they can't have that in the LDS Church. What I learned on my path after going through ministry training and ordinations in other traditions was that it's all there in Mormonism. Women have more ministry, more types of ministry, more levels of priesthood, and a more complete formation and initiation path in the LDS tradition than I found in any other tradition.
John Dehlin [03:30:34] And for those who don't know, Maxine Hanks is one of the September six. She was excommunicated for publishing a book on Mormon feminism. And then eventually after, after that, she re baptized. I just want to give that context. That's Maxine, like 20 years later. What'd y' all think of that quote?
Jana Spangler [03:30:51] So I, I have context because I know Maxine and I know her too really well. Okay. So one thing that I would say is she sees it in the structure and in the history and theology. Yes. I would say she recognizes that. That is that we don't see it today. So it's more of this idea of, let me show you, from my experience, how there are paths to ordination in other traditions and that she participated in and that there is more available here if we would just see it. I think that's the part that she wasn't saying. So it came off as sounding a lot like the, the. Who was it that said it on the Instagram that just the woman that
Julie Hanks [03:31:46] said, oh, I know no other church. Yeah, right, right.
Jana Spangler [03:31:49] I mean, it was just a mess. Right.
Beau Oyler [03:31:51] We have the, we have a page of that.
Jana Spangler [03:31:57] It's sounds the same.
Beau Oyler [03:31:58] Sounds very much.
John Dehlin [03:31:59] No other religion, religious organization in the world that I know of that has so broadly given power and authority to women. And that's Jay, Annette, Dennis.
Jana Spangler [03:32:10] Yes.
Julie Hanks [03:32:11] Crazy couple of weeks watching that blow up, and every post ex Mormon or Mormon feminist showed up on that thread.
Jana Spangler [03:32:21] It was so awesome. All of us were there.
Julie Hanks [03:32:23] So awesome.
Jana Spangler [03:32:23] We were all there. Yeah. And, and because we, we need to give that idea push back. And, and it's a, both. And I think in a, in a certain way, what I, in conversations with Maxine, where she's seeing this is the, the variety of callings, the lay ministry. There is a breadth there of what women can do that you can.
Julie Hanks [03:32:47] Sacrament meetings.
Jana Spangler [03:32:48] Absolutely. Lessons and, and talks and. And things there. There is a lot there, even today.
Julie Hanks [03:32:54] Yeah.
Jana Spangler [03:32:55] However. However, there's a big but to all of it. What Maxine is seeing is not seen by the church.
Julie Hanks [03:33:06] It's not realized yet.
Jana Spangler [03:33:07] It's not realized. It's not seen. It's just if we excavated more full, there are seeds of it.
Julie Hanks [03:33:17] Yeah.
Jana Spangler [03:33:17] And there's. And it's there in ritual. It's there in ritual in our temples, in lots of places that we are not seeing.
Julie Hanks [03:33:24] Right.
Jana Spangler [03:33:25] So I do not believe that Maxine would say. We would. We've arrived.
Julie Hanks [03:33:29] Yeah.
Beau Oyler [03:33:30] She's publicly corrected it, too.
Jana Spangler [03:33:31] Yeah.
Beau Oyler [03:33:32] Like, she. She's come out since then on the. The one with Steve.
Jana Spangler [03:33:36] The other one we were on. Yep.
Julie Hanks [03:33:37] I. Two years ago, I officiated my daughter's wedding, and it was really profound for me because I realized, like, oh, I have the authority from the church of the Internet or whatever, you know, marriage, ordained ministers, whatever. Then I felt, then I experienced like I could actually do something that was unique for my child. And that was such a cool experience, and it was such a stark contrast to go back to church and.
Jana Spangler [03:34:15] Right.
John Dehlin [03:34:15] You're giving me idea like the church could allow women to perform temporal marriages right now and encourage it.
Jana Spangler [03:34:23] So I have performed a couple of weddings myself, and I. The experience was that there were people that. That were. Were in the church that were family members of the people that I was marrying who were very, very uncomfortable.
Julie Hanks [03:34:42] Yeah.
Jana Spangler [03:34:42] With them choosing a female officiant.
Julie Hanks [03:34:45] Right. And you don't hold the priesthood. And what's interesting is my husband at the time was the bishop, and they asked me to officiate. She's like, he's going to walk me down the aisle and then pass me off to you. And then we're going to. You're going to appreciate it.
Jana Spangler [03:35:00] And it was really amazing.
Julie Hanks [03:35:01] It's like, oh, I get to do something actually, you know, that's unique.
Jana Spangler [03:35:06] Absolutely.
Beau Oyler [03:35:07] It's official.
Julie Hanks [03:35:08] Yeah.
Beau Oyler [03:35:08] You get to have the final word.
Julie Hanks [03:35:10] And my kids are like, mom, finally got the priesthood.
Beau Oyler [03:35:12] Okay.
Jana Spangler [03:35:13] And this stuff, I think that I never fully appreciated how important this kind of representation is for. For, you know, for your. Your girls to see you doing something like that for. And, you know, even back to the women on the stand, I had such an emotional experience. Both of these things happened really close together, and it took me completely by surprise. But it was the first scouts who were girls in Utah who received their eagles. And there was a. And there was an article on it. And then Within a short period of time, Kamala Harris was sworn in as vice president. And both of those moments, I just was reduced to tears because I didn't even understand until that point what that meant to me because of what the absence of that had done to me and to limiting myself and my own opportunities and what I thought I could even do.
Julie Hanks [03:36:17] And you don't even know you're missing it.
Jana Spangler [03:36:19] I didn't know I was missing it until I saw it, and I just sobbed.
Julie Hanks [03:36:23] Beautiful.
Jana Spangler [03:36:24] It's so important. It's so important. And I just don't think that men in the church can understand this because they've always had it.
Julie Hanks [03:36:31] Yeah. Read dear Mormon man, what would you do? By Amy Alabest.
Beau Oyler [03:36:35] So good.
Jana Spangler [03:36:36] That is the thing. I. Because I was right in this, and I was not. I mean, it's that. It's the thing that, like, it was a moment in my life. I sat there after I read it. I couldn't even. I couldn't talk, I couldn't speak. I couldn't move.
Julie Hanks [03:36:49] So profound.
Jana Spangler [03:36:50] And I just sat there for 15 minutes. Like, what have I. What have I swallowed? My entire life. Yeah, it's. It can. It's a devastating moment.
Julie Hanks [03:37:00] Yeah.
Jana Spangler [03:37:01] Followed by some liberation. But it's. It's. It's devastating.
Beau Oyler [03:37:05] My wife and I had two. I had two moments like that where my wife sent me something to read or reread with a new light, with no filter.
Jana Spangler [03:37:14] Yes.
Beau Oyler [03:37:14] Okay. One was Doctrine Covenants 132 a few years ago.
Jana Spangler [03:37:18] Oh, that's a moment.
Beau Oyler [03:37:19] And I said. And I was. I was in Oakland working. She was in Salt Lake. She's sobbing. She's like, just read it. And I'm like, honey, I've read it. I've taught it in seminary. Like, she's like, just hang up and read it word for word. Not just the first 30 verses, the entire thing. To end and then call me back.
Jana Spangler [03:37:36] Yeah.
Beau Oyler [03:37:36] And that was that the moment. Right. And then another one was when I read the dear Mormon. Dear Mormon Man. And I just cried and cried because I now saw.
Julie Hanks [03:37:46] Yeah.
Beau Oyler [03:37:47] How ridiculous this is.
Jana Spangler [03:37:48] Yep.
Beau Oyler [03:37:49] It's insane.
Jana Spangler [03:37:50] I. I had.
John Dehlin [03:37:51] Today.
Julie Hanks [03:37:52] It's now 2025. I know.
Jana Spangler [03:37:54] I. I had three of those moments. One with. With feminism, with women, one with LGBT stuff. And I think, I believe Bill was listening to a Mormon story. It was. It was that moment. And then it was a moment understanding racial tensions and racial experience when I was at the center for Action and contemplation, listening to an incredible woman, Barbara Holmes, just moments of Like, I can't believe I never saw this.
John Dehlin [03:38:22] Yeah, yeah.
Missed Opportunities and Personal Stories
Beau Oyler [03:38:25] So before we move on, I want to go to the last page that I put in the deck. I do want to hit on what I'm calling a missed opportunity. And of course, there's so many missed opportunities. Like, I played a little game also, like, I almost put a slide in of, like, what would episode 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 cover. Right. There's so many good things, but this one, I feel like was one of the largest missed opportunities to address the Annette Denning Instagram debacle. Okay.
Beau Oyler [03:38:53] And so, and I don't mean debacle being the whole situation. I mean debacle and how they treated it. Okay. And so if we go back to that slide, I want to run a little bit of data on it. So once again, I'll read the quote. This, this was posted to Instagram as a quote from a meeting that she, you know, she, she had taught at. And she's in the highest, she's like, I guess you could say the, the second highest authority in the church is this person.
Beau Oyler [03:39:18] The quote is, there's no other religious organization in the world that I'm aware of that, that has so broadly given power and authority to women. That was last year, March 17th. Okay. In a relief study, devotional. Then the church celebrated it by posting on Instagram. So the church averages 200 comments per post. And they post a lot. Okay. They're very active on social. And they, they, they average about 200 comments per post across all of them. Outside of this one. I removed that from the data set so far. This has 17,200 comments on this one post.
Beau Oyler [03:39:52] 16,200 shares. Okay, so we're talking 66x average of engagement. Then I had a, I run an analysis of the comments. 90% of the comments disagree with Dennis's comment. 90%. And the vast majority of that 90% state they are active. You know, I'm the Relief Society president, I'm the young women's president. I am a temple goer, I am a tithe payer. I'm an active member of the church. And this is not true. Type comments.
Julie Hanks [03:40:28] Yeah.
Beau Oyler [03:40:29] Okay, so here we have with these 17,000 comments and it being in Wall Street Journal and you know, like we have what I'm calling the largest collective female voice ever in the 200 year history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day.
Julie Hanks [03:40:49] Historic. It was historic.
Beau Oyler [03:40:51] Historic.
Julie Hanks [03:40:51] I remember feeling that, like we're talking about the hard things on the church's page.
Jana Spangler [03:40:56] Yes.
Beau Oyler [03:40:57] Amazing for everyone. Who follows it to follow along. I mean, my mom was calling me. She's like, I was up till three in the morning reading every single comment. Bo, like you, the women are finally getting a voice, right? Like, amazing.
Beau Oyler [03:41:13] And somehow this, the largest collective voice of women in the church, didn't get included in this documentary. And then when I listened to Jim Bennett and Jim's like, oh yeah, you know, Robert needed me to make a couple comments on the authenticity and historicity of the Book of Mormon. So, you know, we zoomed in and I recorded, reported these little things. And you know, it's okay. I'm like, so you're going to go back and be like, oh shoot, we forgot historical Book of Mormon comments. Let's get that. But you're not going to put this in.
Beau Oyler [03:41:44] I don't, I don't understand that. I don't, I don't, I don't get it. I don't understand how this, they didn't lead with. This is like the biggest. You want to know what LDs, active LDs women feel?
Julie Hanks [03:41:54] Yeah.
Beau Oyler [03:41:54] Go read the comments.
Jana Spangler [03:41:55] Well, and, and beyond just this documentary, to the point of we are not talking about it, that this hasn't spurred conversation within the church from higher levels. I mean, no one even knows if anyone actually read it. I mean, Annette Dennis, I believe, made it, did. She did make a post.
Julie Hanks [03:42:14] But what she said was, we will pass this on to church leaders.
Jana Spangler [03:42:19] Yes.
Julie Hanks [03:42:19] It was like she denounced herself. You're not a church leader. I thought you were a church leader.
Jana Spangler [03:42:24] Right.
Beau Oyler [03:42:25] It was so telling. Pass this on. We'll make sure that the people who matter actually, you know, see this.
Jana Spangler [03:42:31] And A, did they. And B, yes.
Julie Hanks [03:42:35] What was the result?
Jana Spangler [03:42:36] Or does she not, does she not count? But there's been no follow up. There's been no, like, we heard you.
Beau Oyler [03:42:42] And, and I know somebody who is a progressive member, pretty dialed in with some of the brethren and somebody actually invited her to HQ to talk about the Instagram thing because she's quite, quite social or quite, you know, prominent on social media and asked her about it and she's just like, well, I think it's pretty clear. Like just read the comments and, and the general authority who was there entertaining this conversation said, okay, but tell me about Julie Hanks.
Julie Hanks [03:43:12] I know I'm pinned.
Beau Oyler [03:43:14] This whole thing, he wanted to pin this whole thing on Julie.
Julie Hanks [03:43:19] Wow, I didn't realize I'm that powerful.
Beau Oyler [03:43:23] This is what I heard. Okay, so. Interesting response. What a fascinating response. The most voices ever in 200 years and they're gonna be like, who's that? Who started this fire?
Jana Spangler [03:43:37] We exist because we love a scapegoat. Do you know that? We love escape.
Julie Hanks [03:43:41] You know that My comment on that had like 5000 likes just on a
Beau Oyler [03:43:45] comment on a comment. And almost 600 comments to your comment. And that's why you were pinned at HQ as here's the fire starter. Okay, well, not, not Dennis Gaslighting. Everybody's definitely been burning. Yeah, yeah. And I just thought that was very telling when I heard that story of like, wow, that's how they're reacting to this. It's like, who's the problem here? Whose fault is this?
John Dehlin [03:44:11] What's the problem?
Jana Spangler [03:44:13] It's the same. It's the scapegoat mechanism. Like when we came cannot psychologically take it in and have a real interaction with it. Yes, we. That's the first thing humans go to in scapegoat.
Beau Oyler [03:44:25] Yeah.
Julie Hanks [03:44:26] They could have said, let's call her in and see what she has to share. What can we learn from her LDS? Women for 30 years.
Beau Oyler [03:44:33] Exactly.
Julie Hanks [03:44:34] Wow.
Jana Spangler [03:44:34] You might actually know something.
Beau Oyler [03:44:36] Exactly.
Jana Spangler [03:44:36] There may be something to learn.
John Dehlin [03:44:37] And by the way, she's active and faithful. Right, Exactly.
Beau Oyler [03:44:41] Let's get hurt her. Let's get her input.
Julie Hanks [03:44:43] Right? No, no, let's, let's call her in.
Beau Oyler [03:44:47] Yeah, exactly.
Jana Spangler [03:44:48] It's one of the problems with hierarchy is we start to think we know more. You know, and this is one of my big messages in all of this thing is that you, you have to look to the margins for the wisdom of what is going on. The margins are the people, the ones without the power are always the ones who can see the evils in the system or the things that aren't working in the system. You are you. And it's not a knock on people. If you're in charge and you fit the, the, the demographic and you fit all of the things. You can see it, you can't see it.
Jana Spangler [03:45:24] You literally cannot see it. And we need to have this sensibility where we start saying, what are you seeing? And we. And, and there's gotta be a humility of what can I learn from you? Not that God's gonna tell me everything that needs to happen. We've gotta start like working together to find our collective wisdom.
Julie Hanks [03:45:44] What if God is telling them through that Instagram, right? Like through women's voices.
Jana Spangler [03:45:51] We gave you a clue.
Julie Hanks [03:45:52] Yeah.
Beau Oyler [03:45:53] And they get lots of clues. They have 50 full time employees that serve as, as an internal agency to show the brethren the data and what people are looking for, for and what they want they spend $50 million on retainer to Bane as an agency to, you know, get the data around what people want and to feed that back to the brethren like they know.
Julie Hanks [03:46:11] They know.
Jana Spangler [03:46:12] Yes. And they utilize it.
Beau Oyler [03:46:14] Yes.
Jana Spangler [03:46:14] In ways, but they don't want to be open about it for sure.
Beau Oyler [03:46:17] And that's why I thought the Instagram post was so important because it's like this is just raw. Straight from real women.
Jana Spangler [03:46:25] That's right.
Beau Oyler [03:46:26] Lived, like their lived experience.
Jana Spangler [03:46:28] And how many channels do just average women have leadership.
Julie Hanks [03:46:33] Well now Instagram.
Jana Spangler [03:46:34] Yeah, yeah. If they read it, if they pay attention to it. Yeah, yeah.
Beau Oyler [03:46:40] All right. So thank you for entertaining that.
Julie Hanks [03:46:42] Thank you.
Beau Oyler [03:46:43] It was such a missed opportunity.
Jana Spangler [03:46:44] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:46:45] And Julie, just for those who don't know, whatever you want to share. Yeah. I don't think people, there's probably a lot of people that don't even know discipline wise, what this, what's happened or what your status is. What do you want to share about?
Julie Hanks [03:46:59] Oh, just that I was called in by again, but so this. I had a stake president a couple years ago who called me in with the area authority and then in last winter was called in again, talked to by my bishop and stake president, read the definition of apostasy, gave those two examples that I shared earlier and I gave him 500 letters of like how I've helped people stay in the church. And then nothing has happened since then and I've moved, so I don't know, I don't know what's. Nothing else has happened. That's all I've heard.
John Dehlin [03:47:39] But that's the penultimate step to being called the disciplinary council is being warned.
Julie Hanks [03:47:43] Being warned.
Jana Spangler [03:47:43] Right.
Julie Hanks [03:47:44] And I was warned. Yeah. And so has that made you want
John Dehlin [03:47:49] to be more careful or cautious about what you say?
Julie Hanks [03:47:52] No, because I've stopped attending. So I, and I, I just was like, I, I don't want to play this game like I'm a 56 year old woman and I'm not going to have somebody tell me what I can and can't say. You know, just, I, I'm, I, I'm not playing.
John Dehlin [03:48:06] But they kind of drove you away.
Julie Hanks [03:48:08] Yeah, Yeah. I felt really mistreated.
John Dehlin [03:48:13] Yeah. That makes us the same age, by the way.
Julie Hanks [03:48:17] Oh, yeah. Oh, that's right. We've talked about this. I think you're like a month younger than me or something, so.
John Dehlin [03:48:23] So in summary, women, how we feel about how the documentary treated these issues, do we feel pretty good?
Jana Spangler [03:48:32] I mean, it gave a voice to important things.
John Dehlin [03:48:34] Okay.
Julie Hanks [03:48:35] Yeah, I gave it to me. Solid B.
John Dehlin [03:48:38] Nice Yeah. You know, I just had this thought. This is a bit of a side thought, but where in all of Mormonism in 2025 is there a show where thoughtful people trying to be fair talk about the happenings and the policies and the standards and the history and the practices of Mormonism? Where in the world does that happen?
Jana Spangler [03:49:04] I haven't found it.
Julie Hanks [03:49:05] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:49:06] Is that like. I'm just sitting here loving this.
Jana Spangler [03:49:08] Yeah.
Beau Oyler [03:49:08] Well, that's what you tried to do a couple years ago, right?
Julie Hanks [03:49:12] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:49:12] Yeah.
Beau Oyler [03:49:13] That he had to pull away. And then Patrick actually, like, rebuked the community on Mormon Reddit and just said, like, this is not healthy. This is not good. He posted and said, like, shame on you, basically.
John Dehlin [03:49:25] But is it weird that it doesn't just exist?
Beau Oyler [03:49:28] Exist?
Jana Spangler [03:49:29] I mean, and. And it. It just. It makes me crazy. When I heard about that project, I was so excited. I love the three of you, your voices like that. That could really move us forward.
Beau Oyler [03:49:39] Yeah.
Julie Hanks [03:49:39] Yeah.
Jana Spangler [03:49:39] And I don't know. I think while we have this heart to want to do that, we don't. That they're just. People get really. Certain people. Certain people get really squeamish.
Julie Hanks [03:49:51] Yeah.
Jana Spangler [03:49:52] About fear. It's fear. It's so fearful to give essay to all the sides. It's just. I just don't.
Beau Oyler [03:50:00] I don't know what's the in or out. Right. It's like everybody's trying to gauge, like, is he in? Is she out? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin [03:50:07] And I. I actually wasn't thinking of Patrick or Jan at all. I'm just thinking of what does it say about the church and its culture?
Jana Spangler [03:50:14] That's what I. That.
Julie Hanks [03:50:15] Me too.
John Dehlin [03:50:16] Where there's no adults who are having a weekly or a monthly conversation about what's going on. What do we think about it? How do we feel? What's the good, what's the bad? In all of Mormonism that does not exist and pretty much never has. Is that weird?
Beau Oyler [03:50:34] Yeah.
Jana Spangler [03:50:34] It's wild. It's sad.
John Dehlin [03:50:37] Yeah.
Julie Hanks [03:50:38] Yeah.
Jana Spangler [03:50:39] If we could do that, that would give me a lot of hope that I don't have currently.
Julie Hanks [03:50:45] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:50:47] Well, I'm glad y' all are here to do it.
Beau Oyler [03:50:50] I do want to say before we move on to both, both of you, so I. It sparked. Because I'm reading some of the comments on YouTube and one of my young women who lives in New Zealand now commented on it and just said, julie, I love you. You are the best. You have inspired me as a woman. Okay. And I know that for both of you and also sister in laws I grew up in a family of all boys. Okay. So, like, once I got married, I married into a family of almost all girls. And I got to experience, like, girls on a different level.
Beau Oyler [03:51:18] And it's like, awesome. And I've learned a lot. And so many of the women in my life just so appreciate you and you and what you do in your voices. And the church doesn't give you that voice. They're not going to give you that opportunity or authority. And so you take it.
Julie Hanks [03:51:32] Yeah.
Beau Oyler [03:51:32] And you do it on your own. And I just, I just do want to recognize, to you and those who did speak in this chapter, like, that's a.
John Dehlin [03:51:40] Just.
Beau Oyler [03:51:41] Thank you. Thank you for that.
Jana Spangler [03:51:44] It does.
Julie Hanks [03:51:45] That's my. Yeah. My heart is to make a difference for women with an LDS background. Like, that's.
Beau Oyler [03:51:51] Yeah, you're doing it. We have orthodox family who would never listen to a Mormon stories. I mean, God forbid. Right. But they follow you. Right. We're always looking, like when you post on Instagram, like, like my wife and I will look like who liked it. Interesting. Okay.
Jana Spangler [03:52:10] There's a power to people on the edge. On the edge of inside, edge of outside.
Beau Oyler [03:52:13] Yeah.
Jana Spangler [03:52:14] You know that it's just close enough that people can listen.
Beau Oyler [03:52:18] That's exactly right. So have you noticed anything since coming out when you did that Q A? I think you're on an airplane or something.
Julie Hanks [03:52:23] Oh, yeah, Well, I. I was in an Airport for 12 hours. I did a Q A, and I wasn't planning on announcing that I'd step back from the church, but someone asked and so I just kind of put it in this, like, you know, 50 Q A. Yeah. But people.
Beau Oyler [03:52:38] No, it was like you lit a match.
Jana Spangler [03:52:42] I think that's. I. I learned about it.
Julie Hanks [03:52:43] Yeah.
Beau Oyler [03:52:43] So what has happened since then with your following? And have you seen a decline? Have you seen a rise? Has anything changed?
Julie Hanks [03:52:50] No, not much has changed. Not much has changed. People have been extremely supportive and understanding, and I feel like I was pushed out. Like, I. I've just been mistreated by people online and bullied and harassed. And then when church leaders that are friends just like, call me in and I just feel like that's not. It's just not okay.
Beau Oyler [03:53:13] Yeah.
Julie Hanks [03:53:14] You know.
Beau Oyler [03:53:14] Yeah.
Julie Hanks [03:53:15] And I love the church and I don't know where I heard this, but. But like, food critics don't hate food. They love food. Movie critics don't hate movies. It's like they're. They love it. So they're trying to go, oh, this is the best part. And, oh, this is don't waste your time on this. And. And I feel like that, like, I love the church.
Jana Spangler [03:53:39] Absolutely. And we don't make a distinction between people who don't love the church and who really just want to criticize and people who critique right from love. There is a distinction.
Julie Hanks [03:53:52] Yeah.
Beau Oyler [03:53:52] Yeah.
Julie Hanks [03:53:53] I love. I love the church. I love the people.
Jana Spangler [03:53:55] Same.
Julie Hanks [03:53:56] And so I. I want to make things better from inside, outside 100. You know, halfway in. Halfway.
Jana Spangler [03:54:03] I would not do what I do if that were not my motivation.
Julie Hanks [03:54:06] Yeah. Yeah. It's nice to feel like. So.
Jana Spangler [03:54:09] Thank you.
Julie Hanks [03:54:09] It's nice to feel like some days it makes a difference, you know?
Beau Oyler [03:54:13] It does. It definitely does.
John Dehlin [03:54:15] Yeah. And thanks to both of you for sharing everything you've shared so far. I'm learning a lot, and I really admire your wisdom and strength. So thanks. Thanks for being here.
Jana Spangler [03:54:27] Yeah.
Julie Hanks [03:54:27] Thank you.
Jana Spangler [03:54:28] Thanks for having us.
John Dehlin [03:54:29] Yeah. Well, we're not done in Mormon stories fashion. 3. We're almost at 4. Do we want to do polygamy real quick?
Jana Spangler [03:54:38] Sure.
John Dehlin [03:54:38] You gotta go.
Julie Hanks [03:54:41] I probably have, and I could maybe do 15 more.
John Dehlin [03:54:44] Okay. All right. We'll rush through it. So obviously, the church talks about polygamy. That's episode seven. I'll just. I'll just cut to the chase. The. You know, they've got, you know, Fiona Givens and others.
Polygamy as a Deal Breaker and Terrell Givens
Julie Hanks [03:54:58] Go ahead, play Terrell.
Beau Oyler [03:54:59] Yeah, for sure.
Julie Hanks [03:55:00] That's like the clip from this section.
Beau Oyler [03:55:03] We could do, like, the big clip here, the big clip on the next one, and talk about prophetic fallacy or. Yeah, close it up.
John Dehlin [03:55:09] So, yeah, so here's the clip that put everyone up in arms. It's the Tarot Givens clip. We'll play it. I think anybody for whom polygamy is not a problem is, to some extent,
Beau Oyler [03:55:22] maybe a little bit morally oblivious.
John Dehlin [03:55:24] It should be disturbing that Joseph Smith married women without his wife's permission or knowledge that he married underaged girls. I don't think that any of those problems are or should be deal breakers. I think that that
Beau Oyler [03:55:40] is most troubling
John Dehlin [03:55:41] to those who have unrealistic expectations about the nature of prophetic infallibility.
Julie Hanks [03:55:48] And full.
John Dehlin [03:55:50] So, first of all, it's ironic that Fiona is included in the section because she worked for BYU and was basically forced out.
Jana Spangler [03:55:56] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:55:57] For talking too much about mother in heaven.
Julie Hanks [03:55:59] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:55:59] And yet she's somehow a spokesperson for, I mean, women's related issues. But at the same time, I admire her and I respect her in many ways, and it's good that she was included. So teeing this up, two things Number one, polygamy shouldn't be a deal breaker. Thoughts on that?
Julie Hanks [03:56:16] Well, the juxtaposition of you, if you have any moral. I can't remember the language he used.
Jana Spangler [03:56:24] But morally oblivious.
Julie Hanks [03:56:25] Yeah. You're more. If you don't have a problem, you're morally oblivious. But it's not that much of a problem to.
John Dehlin [03:56:31] And it's like be a deal breaker, right?
Julie Hanks [03:56:32] Yeah. So it feels like, well, which is it? You know?
Jana Spangler [03:56:35] Yeah, well, there's a difference between it should be a deal breaker and it doesn't have to be a deal breaker. Those are two different things.
John Dehlin [03:56:42] Yeah, but wait, what? Is there an argument that says that it should be a deal breaker? Does anyone have an argument for like.
Julie Hanks [03:56:48] Yes, yes.
John Dehlin [03:56:49] You can see why for many it is a deal breaker.
Julie Hanks [03:56:51] Marrying teenagers.
John Dehlin [03:56:53] Who?
Julie Hanks [03:56:54] Who?
Beau Oyler [03:56:54] Anyone.
John Dehlin [03:57:00] Keep going. I just want to make sure you said marrying Joseph Smith, marrying teenagers and
Julie Hanks [03:57:06] 20 plus women behind his wife's back. That is morally unacceptable. And that is a very legitimate deal breaker.
Jana Spangler [03:57:15] And using coercion and using coercion and
Julie Hanks [03:57:17] manipulation and threatening and then creating theology
Beau Oyler [03:57:21] around it that we didn't even know was created for it. AKA temple and families are forever and ceiling and all of that created so that you could justify this polygamy.
Julie Hanks [03:57:31] If anybody did that today, it's a deal breaker.
Beau Oyler [03:57:34] It's a deal breaker. Can you imagine going to your spouse and you're just like, well, my 21 husbands. So I got to come clean.
Julie Hanks [03:57:42] Not only have I had an affair, but I've had 25.
Beau Oyler [03:57:45] And then I decided to marry 22 of those. But don't worry, you get to have a say in them now, right? Yeah. For the next 18, I'd like you to have a say in this.
Jana Spangler [03:57:58] Yes.
Beau Oyler [03:57:58] So that's how important.
Jana Spangler [03:57:59] Not too much of a say.
Beau Oyler [03:58:00] But if I disagree with you, it's okay.
Jana Spangler [03:58:02] No destroy. And how is it not a deal breaker?
Beau Oyler [03:58:05] Like if I went to my wife and I'm like, yeah, so shoot. The 14 year old neighbor, 36 affairs, including multiple people who we took in as help around the house or as foster children. Foster children. And you know, oh yeah, our neighbors who are married to our friend. Yeah. That.
Julie Hanks [03:58:23] Can we just say, like it was a huge mistake. And I wonder if that's why he was allowed to, you know, like if you believe in a God, like God's like, he's off the rails. Let's. We gotta stop this. But then it didn't.
Beau Oyler [03:58:38] I mean, Brigham Young made it worse. I feel like this chapter very. Especially with the faith matters approach and with their, with the apologist approach, I just feel like it should have just been like, let's spend two minutes laying out the facts so that we can, you know, ignore the flat earthers who are like polygamy deniers, right. And just like, here's the facts, plain and simple. And then Terrell comes on and says polygamy was a massive mistake and it hurts so many people. Thank God it's over. End of chapter.
Jana Spangler [03:59:10] Yeah, I will, I will just say that in my practice, I am, I think it's the number one thing that gets, that starts women down a path of faith transition, faith examination.
John Dehlin [03:59:26] But then, but then that takes us to Terrell's second point, which is it shouldn't be a deal breaker because you have unrealistic expectations.
Beau Oyler [03:59:34] Oh yeah, that's right.
Julie Hanks [03:59:35] It's my fault. So that's the thing. Like you expect them to be perfect. No, I don't. I expect them to not be predators, to be honest. To like, it's not.
Beau Oyler [03:59:46] Julie, you've got pretty high expectations like that.
Julie Hanks [03:59:51] Yeah, I expect them to be honest most of the time. You know, it's really not, it's really not that high.
Jana Spangler [04:00:01] It's not. And this is one of the microaggressions I was talking about, you know, with the other guy that we talked about. Maybe we'll get to. But it's, it's this, it's this idea. It's, it is, it's a straw man. It's a. Let me tell you, let me explain your experience to you. And it's done in so many ways. Not just around polygamy, but I had it done to me. Like I, when I finally got honest with myself to say, I don't know if I've had a real experience with God in my life. I mean, I'm in my 40s and I'm like, I don't, I don't know if I've had this. And that was the answer I got from more than one person. Well, you just have unrealistic expectations. Expecting a sign.
Beau Oyler [04:00:43] Yeah, exactly.
Jana Spangler [04:00:44] There's so much more to this. There's so much more to this.
Julie Hanks [04:00:47] Yeah.
Jana Spangler [04:00:48] And it is not just your expectations that makes polygamy hard.
Julie Hanks [04:00:52] You expect him to be perfect. Nope.
Jana Spangler [04:00:54] Even if you reject it. Even if you reject it, it can still be a deal breaker.
Beau Oyler [04:00:59] Even if he left it open. Right. Like, let's say they go through the two minute sound bite on like the reality of Joseph's polygamy and then he says, for some, this is a deal. Breaker and for others it isn't. I think we all just need to look inward and, and ask ourselves, is this a deal breaker for me?
Jana Spangler [04:01:14] And I think it's fair to bring, I think it's fair to bring up, like what are our expectations of leaders? I, I think that has a place in the conversation. But don't dismiss people.
Julie Hanks [04:01:24] Yeah, right, right.
Jana Spangler [04:01:26] By saying that that's the issue.
John Dehlin [04:01:28] Yeah, yeah. And I'll just say there are several deal breakers and I would even say they reached the level of smoking guns for belief in the Mormon Church related to polygamy. One is that. One is that Joseph Smith told at least two women that an angel with the flaming sword would kill him if she didn't agree to practice polygamy with him.
Beau Oyler [04:01:56] One of which was a minor.
John Dehlin [04:01:57] Yeah, just think about that for a second. Like God won't send an angel with the flaming sword to stop Hitler. He won't send an angel with a flaming sword to, you know, but he
Julie Hanks [04:02:07] cares about marrying the neighbor.
John Dehlin [04:02:10] But he will send an angel with the flaming sword to make sure that these teenage girls have sex with Joseph Smith. Like that's, that is the smoking gun. Another smoking gun is, you know, 14 year olds. Another smoking gun is like 12 women who already married other men. Another smoking gun is when, as you mentioned, Julie, when he finally gives the revelation to Emma after He's already married 20 plus other women behind her back and lying about it, by the way, when he tells Emma that, that he's been doing it and now he has a revelation. In the words of Jesus, Emma's threatened with her destruction if she doesn't allow.
Beau Oyler [04:02:50] That's which is scripture, by the way.
John Dehlin [04:02:53] DNC 132 today. Yeah. The fact that he lied about it all along to the church membership, those are all smoking guns. Don't tell me that if you're going to claim this is God's one true prophet to restore his one true church and then he's doing all these things, that's a reasonable reason to leave Mormonism by any standard. So I think it's awful that Terrell would think or say things like that. And I do think if I had a criticism of Robert and Jim, they just should not have included those segments. They make the documentary objectively worse. So like the polygamy section and the Book of Mormon sections for me aren't beast. I'll put it nicely, you know, and I love Robert. Robert, I love you, you know.
Jana Spangler [04:03:41] Yeah, absolutely. Again, like, how are you gonna do something within the time constraints of what he's doing here and giving a full robust look. He can't do it. It can be. And I want it to be a conversation starter.
Julie Hanks [04:03:54] Yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin [04:03:55] For this point, just stick with things like I believe anyway. Or Joe, maybe. Maybe. I mean, the documentary goes here. Maybe polygamy wasn't of God. Maybe Joseph was a fallen prophet. You don't have to believe in polygamy like they. Yeah, they all do. Right?
Jana Spangler [04:04:09] Yes.
John Dehlin [04:04:10] Just freaking leave out Terrell Givens from that section, please.
Beau Oyler [04:04:13] That comment.
Jana Spangler [04:04:14] Yeah, that comment.
Beau Oyler [04:04:15] Yeah.
Jana Spangler [04:04:16] And. And maybe that comment without context. I don't know what context. Get better.
Beau Oyler [04:04:19] But yeah, yeah, I agreed. It could have been a lot shorter.
John Dehlin [04:04:23] Yeah.
Beau Oyler [04:04:24] Because like everybody in the documentary agreed.
Jana Spangler [04:04:27] Right.
Beau Oyler [04:04:27] With that.
Jana Spangler [04:04:27] I mean, no one was saying. Yeah, it's great.
Beau Oyler [04:04:29] I mean, same with Patrick Mason. Right. He said it on woman stories.
Jana Spangler [04:04:32] Yeah. Or. Or God. I mean, we just have to deal with it. They wanted it.
Beau Oyler [04:04:35] Yeah.
Jana Spangler [04:04:36] There was no one. There was no one. And there are a lot of people out there with that point of view.
Beau Oyler [04:04:40] Yep.
Julie Hanks [04:04:40] Oh yeah, for sure.
John Dehlin [04:04:43] Yeah. But, but. And again, unrealistic expectations. Where would we have had those? And that takes us to the next.
Beau Oyler [04:04:51] Why is that unrealistic? Why is it unrealistic expectation that I would expect my leader of any organization to not do those things? To be moral.
Jana Spangler [04:04:58] To be moral, like.
Julie Hanks [04:05:00] Yeah.
Jana Spangler [04:05:01] Or to own your morality and your immorality.
Beau Oyler [04:05:05] Yeah.
Jana Spangler [04:05:05] Own it.
Beau Oyler [04:05:06] When I think that the deal with it.
Julie Hanks [04:05:08] Yeah.
Beau Oyler [04:05:08] So painful. Because we were all, you know, gaslit.
Jana Spangler [04:05:12] Yes.
Beau Oyler [04:05:13] And not taught these things and then once we learned them. Oh, I knew those things all along. I mean, how many times you heard that? It's like, what, you're just learning about this now? Come on. I've known about this all along. It actually strengthened my testimony when I learned this.
Jana Spangler [04:05:26] Yes. I find it quite ironic now that the church is in a place because of the movement of people who are polygamy deniers, that the church is now in a place of really needing to affirm polygamy. I like.
Beau Oyler [04:05:38] Wow.
Jana Spangler [04:05:39] This would have made my 18 year old brain spin.
Beau Oyler [04:05:41] Yep. For sure.
John Dehlin [04:05:43] It's crazy.
Beau Oyler [04:05:43] I know. It's wild.
Jana Spangler [04:05:44] It's wild.
Why Members Leave and Outsider Perceptions
Beau Oyler [04:05:47] All right.
John Dehlin [04:05:48] Okay, so just for the sake of time, we're going to jump to episode nine, which is entitled leaving to sin or something. No, it's entitled High demand religion. It talks about the church asking members to sacrifice. That it's a good thing for the church to be a high demand religion, which I think is actually true. Like social scientists have demonstrated that the more a church asks of its members, the more commitment they feel to the church. And I also think there's a lot of us who are grateful for our upbringing where we had to work hard.
John Dehlin [04:06:23] And so it tries to make that point, that being a high demand religion is actually a good thing. And this is something I'm just going to say because I know Robert and I've talked to him about it. So there's the classic trope or stereotype that ex Mormons, many ex Mormons or most ex Mormons leave the church because they want to sin.
John Dehlin [04:06:44] And I don't think. Or they can't hack it, or it's too hard. And I know that Robert would not say that about the people close to him who. For the majority of the people close to him who have left. So I don't think Robert believes that generalization.
Beau Oyler [04:07:02] So he had Josh James say it?
John Dehlin [04:07:04] No, no.
Beau Oyler [04:07:05] But.
John Dehlin [04:07:05] But I think he believes that it's true for some. I think he does believe. And there is this idea of a Jack Mormon that there are people that do want to drink beer and they don't want to go to church on Sunday and they want to just have fun in life. You could even argue that's a healthy thing. But I think Robert does believe that there are people who leave because they want to sit, they want to have sex, they want to drink alcohol, they want to smoke weed, they want to get tattoos, they want to swing. And as soon as they have. I think Robert believes that there's some people that they see the CES letter and they're like, sweet, now I have a justification to bail. And yeah, he. I think he does have Josh James say it. Go ahead, Jenna.
Jana Spangler [04:07:46] I had this conversation with Robert.
John Dehlin [04:07:48] Oh, okay. Yeah, please. Yeah.
Jana Spangler [04:07:49] Because I saw some clips, because I was one of the later interviews and I saw that probably some of the clips you're about to play, and I saw all these sections like here. And I saw all these. These sections of the documentary as here are some things that trip people up. Here are some things that trip people up. And I had a big reaction to the high demand religion thing. And I said to him, you know, this isn't a reason people leave.
Jana Spangler [04:08:19] People don't leave because it's a high demand religion. And we can have a conversation about whether it's a good thing or a bad thing to have a high demand religion, that it's not a reason people leave, it is actually a thing that keeps them in.
Jana Spangler [04:08:33] And he said, but I know people that that's what they talk about when they leave. And, like, of course it is, because it's what you resent when you move beyond the paradigm that says that I made that sacrifice for a greater good that I no longer believe in.
Jana Spangler [04:08:51] You know, I mean, if. I mean, Stupid analogy, but if I found out today that I really didn't have to change seven years of poopy diapers with my three kids, that there was another way to make them happy and healthy and hygienic, that would. I didn't have to go through that. I'd be a little salty. Like, I would probably mention it. I'd probably be a little angry at times, you know, and this is so much worse. Like, the amount of our lives we get give to something that we don't resent when we're in it because we're doing it for a reason. And it does bring character and it does bring other things. But I'm like, this is not a thing. That's my opinion, that this is not a thing.
Julie Hanks [04:09:34] I never had a client say, ever, I've left because I want to drink. You can be a Mormon and drink. I mean, you don't have to leave ever. Ever. No one's ever said that.
Jana Spangler [04:09:45] Not once.
Beau Oyler [04:09:47] Thousands.
Jana Spangler [04:09:47] I. I did tell him that. And so, anyway, I was very interested to see how he was going to incorporate all of this. But it's one of the things I. I had. The biggest problem with is. Is still the places where that is insinuated, because I agree with you. I think that there is something in him that really does believe that people leave for that. And we're gonna hear.
Beau Oyler [04:10:06] I just think it's such a fraction of the population. And so j.
Jana Spangler [04:10:09] And they're probably 14 on this. They're probably 14. They're probably not 50 for that to
Beau Oyler [04:10:15] be your driving fact. Your driving force of like, oh, I really want to go, you know, do these things that I never got to do, and I'm salty about it. So I'm gonna let go of this way of life for that.
John Dehlin [04:10:26] Yeah.
Beau Oyler [04:10:26] Yes.
Jana Spangler [04:10:27] And to be fair, the ones who did probably are not in my office trying to wrestle with it. So.
John Dehlin [04:10:32] But I also think very few of the people that watch this documentary that bother to watch this documentary are going to fit in the that category.
Beau Oyler [04:10:38] Yeah.
John Dehlin [04:10:38] So in that sense, I think the documentary is missing the mark in terms of his target audience.
Beau Oyler [04:10:44] The whole Josh James. I was like, when I was watching,
Jana Spangler [04:10:46] I should play it first, and it's deepening the trope.
Beau Oyler [04:10:50] Yeah.
John Dehlin [04:10:50] Let me. Let me play the clip, and then we can comment on it. So this is. So Josh James started a company called Omnature that became a billion dollar company and he sold it to Adobe, and this is his clip for almost $2 billion.
Jana Spangler [04:11:08] Yeah.
Beau Oyler [04:11:09] I mean, there's a million reasons you cannot do this.
▶ Video Clip 7Video Clip 7 [04:11:11] Sometimes I find a lot of friends
Video Clip 7 [04:11:14] that'll make those mistakes and then read the CES letter and be like, oh,
Video Clip 7 [04:11:18] yeah, I'm out because of the CES letter.
Video Clip 7 [04:11:20] But I know that's not the case. It's. They want to do A, B, and C and not feel guilty about it. They don't want to go church and not feel guilty about it.
John Dehlin [04:11:31] So, I mean, that is, that. Does that capture the stuff that upset you?
Jana Spangler [04:11:34] Yeah, that. I, I, that was my least favorite comment in the entire thing.
John Dehlin [04:11:39] Why?
Jana Spangler [04:11:40] Because it is, it, it's, it's giving the worst. I, I want people to give generosity to other people and their experience. And I think that this trope paints people who leave in just a really. Not a great light.
Julie Hanks [04:12:00] Very shallow.
Jana Spangler [04:12:01] Very shallow.
Julie Hanks [04:12:01] And, and just not. Well, it's not accurate.
Jana Spangler [04:12:06] It's not accurate.
Julie Hanks [04:12:07] It's not accurate.
Jana Spangler [04:12:08] It isn't. It's not accurate. And there, I know that this was part of, I want to say it was then the Bridges book by David Osler where he, he asked a bunch of church leaders and asked a bunch of people who have left the church, you know, what, what the reasons were. And there was such a mismatch, and this was one of the big areas that a lot of leaders felt like people were leading to sin. And no one who had left felt like that themselves. So I just think it's perpetuating something. And it is an example of a microaggression. Like, I don't really think that much of you. And so I'm gonna paint you in this light as to why you're leaving. You just want an excuse. I mean, who wants.
Julie Hanks [04:12:46] Well, it's, it's just.
Jana Spangler [04:12:47] That's not great. It's to say another person, as ex
Julie Hanks [04:12:50] Mormons say, oh, they just say because they're blind. She's just dismissing someone's choice. And the complexity that goes along with
Jana Spangler [04:12:58] making a huge life change, it's an example of contempt. Like, I have contempt. I have the high road. I have the right way of doing it, and you don't. But there's more to what he said in another one. I don't know if you're gonna play it that I also have issues with.
John Dehlin [04:13:12] Just summarize it that you remember.
Jana Spangler [04:13:14] So it's when, it's when he Was saying, I don't want people who are imperfect to leave the church. Like, I want the people who are struggling.
John Dehlin [04:13:21] Oh, I'll play that. I'll play that. I'll play that. It's the vanilla milk toast.
Jana Spangler [04:13:24] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's okay.
John Dehlin [04:13:26] I'll play it. I'm in the right place.
Beau Oyler [04:13:27] I want the people that, that disagree, that don't like when people are judgmental, that have a hard time with drinking, that are screwing around with their boyfriend or girlfriend, they still come back. And when someone says something to them that they don't agree with, they stand up like, no, that's not right. I want those people to stay in and fight.
Jana Spangler [04:13:44] That's what we need.
Beau Oyler [04:13:45] Because if we lose all those people, we're going to be a pretty vanilla milquetoast place.
John Dehlin [04:13:51] And it is. It is going to not do nearly
Beau Oyler [04:13:54] as well as if we had the
John Dehlin [04:13:56] leaders and the passionate people fighting. What's wrong with that argument? I think there's something cool about that argument.
Jana Spangler [04:14:02] I think there's something cool about that argument. And then there's also. So it's basically a different version of telling an LGBT person that they have to stay in the church. We don't want it. We want. We, we need you. We need your diversity. We, blah, blah, blah. It's putting the onus on the people for whom it is really hard and they are really struggling to show up and be vulnerable and to go against the grain. That way, instead of telling the church, we need to make space for these people, we need to stop making it hard for them. It's putting the onus on the wrong people. Like, if you don't want a vanilla milk toast church, which. Great, I don't either, what are you gonna do? Rather than tell you to come fight, don't tell me to come fight. Make this a place where I want to be.
John Dehlin [04:14:53] But going back to that trans congresswoman that you and I listened to, Ezra Clark Klein.
Jana Spangler [04:14:59] Yes.
John Dehlin [04:15:00] She makes this beautiful argument that maybe what some call wokeness overreached.
Jana Spangler [04:15:06] Yes.
John Dehlin [04:15:07] Like, for example, in this, in this argument, that it's not. It's not a marginalized person's job to educate everybody else about their marginalization. She makes the comment, who better, who better to educate people about the harms of marginalized people than the marginalized people? When we remove ourselves from the conversation. You know what, what civil rights progress has ever been made when it wasn't the people being marginalized who weren't leading the charge on advocating for themselves and educating others? And I'M not saying. I know there's problems with it and there needs to be self care, but what's wrong with this argument that like stay in the church and make it better and it may be hard and maybe some of you won't be able to do it, but if enough of you do from the grassroots, we can all change the culture.
Jana Spangler [04:15:59] Well, this question is exactly why we're no further than we are in social justice, because we all wrestle with this, because it is the traumatized, marginalized that does.
John Dehlin [04:16:08] Well, isn't that what the Restored people are doing? Like, that's at least 10, 15, 20,000 people who are staying in their wards and speaking up in elders quorum and
Julie Hanks [04:16:17] speaking up in drinking. And some are, I mean, some are.
John Dehlin [04:16:22] I know some that are, in fact, that. That's another criticism of Josh, Josh James, of anyone in the world in Mormonism. Josh James knows thousands of Utah Valley, you know, Utah County Mormons that are drinking, smoking weed, doing psychedelics, swinging and are staying in the church. Joshims of all people.
Julie Hanks [04:16:47] And Restore is. That's the risk.
Jana Spangler [04:16:48] But the Restorer isn't talking about that.
John Dehlin [04:16:50] No.
Julie Hanks [04:16:51] Right. That's not. Come and, come and smoke your cigarettes at Restore. They're not like, that's not who they're catering to.
Jana Spangler [04:17:00] And I don't know that that's that. I mean, maybe more people at Restore are doing that than other places, but I don't think that's. You need to Restore.
John Dehlin [04:17:07] But I'm not talking less about the substances and more about advocating for LGBT people, advocating for women, teaching out your
Jana Spangler [04:17:15] accurate church history, some of the harder conversations.
Julie Hanks [04:17:17] But I think your point is it has to be both. Like, we have to change the system and we need people. It has to change from the top and the bottom. But just to expect the marginalized to change everything in this big giant system, it's not fair.
Jana Spangler [04:17:35] Well, and to expect them to do the heavy lifting. But the key is open from the inside, that the lock is open from the inside.
John Dehlin [04:17:44] And I just, I would say Robert and maybe Josh, I've met Josh once. But what if they're not saying it's your duty, they're saying if you can, that there you can help a lot of people.
Jana Spangler [04:17:56] Well, this is what I would want them to do is I want, I see this, I want you to fight. So this is what I am going to do to help that be easier for you.
Julie Hanks [04:18:08] And is he standing up in sacrament meeting or Elders quorum saying, what can we do to be more welcoming to
John Dehlin [04:18:16] people who I can't say Domo during. I don't mean to be a Josh James apologist, but I do know that during the Believer campaign, when Encircle was really big, I'm pretty sure Domo bought a bunch of LG LGBT affirming billboards and plastered them all along the i15 corridor.
Julie Hanks [04:18:34] Like, that's awesome.
John Dehlin [04:18:35] So I. I think he is putting some of his money. I know he donated a lot to Encircle into a lot of these causes. And again, I don't even know the guy.
Jana Spangler [04:18:44] Good people can do problematic things, trying to do good things for good, you know, for good reasons, but those are good things. They are good things. It's both. They are good things. And also we have to really be mindful of what we are asking of people. We have to be really mindful of what we're asking of people. And we have to be willing to put our skin on the line. We have to be willing to. If you've got the privilege in the system, you need to be willing to put your body in the game and say, this is what I'm doing to help that be possible for you.
Julie Hanks [04:19:22] Yeah, I forgot what I was going to say. No, that's okay.
John Dehlin [04:19:26] So, yes, Jana, I love everything you're advocating for, but I'm also going to say Carolyn Pearson, Darius Gray, Greg Prince, like everybody in this documentary, it's not just Josh James. Isn't that the most common progressive Mormon thing to say is, I'm staying in the church to help those, you know, to make the church better.
Julie Hanks [04:19:43] That's the difference. I'm staying in the church, not you should stay in the church. That's the difference.
Jana Spangler [04:19:48] Huge difference.
Julie Hanks [04:19:49] What I'm going to do versus what you should do, though. That's entirely different.
John Dehlin [04:19:53] Yeah, I see.
Julie Hanks [04:19:54] Does that make sense?
Beau Oyler [04:19:55] Josh's entire point would have been much better if it had just been first person. I hope you do this.
Julie Hanks [04:20:01] I wish that you.
Beau Oyler [04:20:02] And this and this. And if you scour the Internet, you'll see people talking about how I do all of these things and I stand up and I give my testimony on Sunday because I'm using the atonement and I'm trying to overcome my vices and my mistakes, and I'm going to be public about it and open about it and we're all together in this hospital. But that's not what's happening exactly.
Jana Spangler [04:20:20] He's not putting himself in that. That. That place to be vulnerable enough to say, and I want all of you to come with me because you do need people in that Place you do no movement ever, ever. And shouldn't be done by people who aren't in that position. So they need to be and we need there it is a special person who, who can do that and stay well.
Beau Oyler [04:20:42] Yes. And there is a. There is an invisible bond between the progressive members of Award. We all sniff each other out within like the week. Right. When you move to a new ward.
Jana Spangler [04:20:51] Yes.
Julie Hanks [04:20:51] You kind of do the eye rolls together.
Beau Oyler [04:20:54] Nobody says anything. But if you make a comment, then after church you get the texts and people stopping by. Thank you so much for saying that. Nobody will ever, you know, speak openly. I love all that. It's great. And that was my experience for a decade. What I will say is, as we've gone from going to church 50 weeks a year to one or two weeks a year, going to a mission farewell or supporting a loved one as they're speaking or something along those lines. The. There is this group of progressives within, I think every ward where they're the ones who are actually most salty that we've stepped away because it's like we're making a difference. Like you were saying. Nobody else would say you abandoned us. You abandoned us.
Jana Spangler [04:21:38] Well, because there are so few people really that, that are willing to even out themselves to each other, first of all.
Beau Oyler [04:21:45] Yes.
Jana Spangler [04:21:46] And then there are so few. I mean, my experience was that I would say things and yes, I would get the texts and I would get the thank you for saying that. That. Did any of them ever speak up?
Beau Oyler [04:21:54] Nope.
Jana Spangler [04:21:55] No.
Beau Oyler [04:21:56] No.
Jana Spangler [04:21:56] Because this is super hard.
Julie Hanks [04:21:58] Scary and hard. You get punished.
Jana Spangler [04:22:02] You do. And that came as a surprise to me. I'm like, where did everybody go? They left me when I was gospel doctrine teacher. What's happening? You know, I, I was very naive.
Beau Oyler [04:22:14] It takes leadership to do what Josh is talking about. And I actually love what the idea of what he's talking about.
Jana Spangler [04:22:20] Absolutely.
Beau Oyler [04:22:21] And there was this five year period of time, six year period of time because the bishop before me that I was serving as first counselor, he really set the mission of like, everyone is on an equal playing ground. Wherever you are in your journey is a okay here. And it totally changed the mood of our ward. And like we were talking, what he was describing is close to what was happening. Yes, but that's so rare. It's so incredibly rare because you're going to get punished. You're going to get your calling taken away, your temple recommend taken away, your garments taken away, your covenants taken away. If you go up and start bearing your testimony and talking about the things that you're doing and how these things are being overcome through the atonement, like, you're toast.
Jana Spangler [04:23:02] Yeah, for sure.
Beau Oyler [04:23:03] Socially, you're toast. Calling wise hierarchy worthiness, you're toast.
Jana Spangler [04:23:09] Absolutely. And I think, to be fair, John, and to come back to what you were saying with where the woke ideology goes too far and all of those things, I do think that even. And I'm doing it, here's an example of me doing it, is that I'm coming down on this guy. Right. When he really does have the right ideas.
Beau Oyler [04:23:29] Yeah.
Jana Spangler [04:23:30] And I'm coming down on how he's doing it. And that. That I. And I have to watch that in myself. And I've felt it from other people who are marginalized in different ways and in greater ways than I am. Right. And I'm like, no, I'm one of the good guys. I'm one of the good guys. I'm on your side. But I also, I think it's so important to listen to people and how it's landing with them, because you can see I'm activated. And I'm activated because I've been this person he's talking about. I've been on the wrong side of this. And it's like, you know, you just aren't seeing this whole thing.
Jana Spangler [04:24:00] And I wish that we could have better conversations around that, like, we're having right now where I can say, yes, I see your goodness. I can see the goodness of the privileged class and those people who are open to this and are awake to this and want to help. We have got to have a better way to let people do this. Work with dignity and to.
Jana Spangler [04:24:26] And not. Not just come. Come down on how word. They're doing it in an inelegant way. And that has been missing in the whole conversation. It's like, I. I can't even tell you how many white, heterosexual, you know, men came into. Might have come into my office since the whole George Floyd thing, feeling very, very picked on.
Jana Spangler [04:24:53] And, you know, anyone on a liberal side or marginalized side is going to be like, let me get out my tiny violin for you. And that's. That's not a great response to people who are trying to really honestly grapple with it. We've got to let people have their dignity for not knowing what they don't know. And we haven't figured out how to do that yet. And we're not going to move forward until we do.
Beau Oyler [04:25:17] Well, I think, Janet, that sums up the whole point of the last chapter and the thread throughout of like, can you leave the church with dignity? Can you stay in the church with dignity?
Julie Hanks [04:25:27] Yes.
Beau Oyler [04:25:28] Right. The ultimate end question.
Jana Spangler [04:25:30] Absolutely. And in mixed families that I work with, mixed faith families, that is one of the, that's. It's hard work to get there, to let your people choose differently.
Julie Hanks [04:25:41] Yeah. Differentiation of self. So hard. So hard.
Leadership Fallibility and Personal Revelation
John Dehlin [04:25:48] So I had the last episode mostly focusing on a message that leaders are fallible, which I think is the most radical and risky and dangerous message they could possibly share in the series. And they kind of start with it and they kind of end with it.
Julie Hanks [04:26:07] Yeah.
Jana Spangler [04:26:08] Which is bananas that it's that hard for us to say because we all know it.
John Dehlin [04:26:12] Yeah. But it's also probably a lot of. I mean the Mormon Church is worth. There's this idea in basketball called scoreboard. You kind of just say, you may not like what's going on, but look at the scoreboard. Like the Mormon church is worth 300 billion plus dollars. Super successful. You know, making criticism of authority, you know, a bad thing has probably really worked for them. Right. And is, and we've all acknowledged is the most sacred of all cows is priesthood authority.
Jana Spangler [04:26:41] Yes.
John Dehlin [04:26:42] So with that I'll just play a quick clip. So here's what the doc is saying works. There are many who do leave the church when they find out that their leaders are not infallible. I'm sorry that they do that because I don't think that that's necessary. But if their paradigm of affiliation within the church was based on that belief that these men are infallible, then they really have no other choice.
John Dehlin [04:27:12] The problem wasn't defallibility, infallibility, the leaders. It was the construction of that paradigm in the first place, aided and abetted by the institutional church that set them up for failure. That's the issue. If they can shift the paradigm and say, look, these are good men, well intentioned, and sometimes they get it right and sometimes they don't. But ultimately it's the responsibility of the individual member to figure that out. Then they'll be okay.
John Dehlin [04:27:43] It would be nice if there were an institution that did get it right all the time. An institution that was infallible. To the best of my knowledge, that's not out there and it never has been from the perspective of church leaders. Oh, you're laughing.
Julie Hanks [04:28:03] Wants an infallible leader or institution. Like, stop. Yeah, just. I want just a good, mature, responsible, like I make mistakes, own them. Like, yeah, this is obviously like, ah, driving me crazy.
Jana Spangler [04:28:21] Yeah.
Julie Hanks [04:28:21] But that is not what people want.
John Dehlin [04:28:24] It's a straw man, you're saying
Beau Oyler [04:28:28] perfection, you know, infallibility, or, you know, it's
Jana Spangler [04:28:32] like, no, yeah, we want transparency, we want honesty, we want trustworthiness, we want goodness, we want moral leadership.
Julie Hanks [04:28:41] Yeah.
John Dehlin [04:28:42] I think a lot of believing Mormons would say the Brethren are all that. They're kind, honest, good hearted, hard working, moral men.
Jana Spangler [04:28:49] I would.
Julie Hanks [04:28:50] They are. And the institution as a system does not always act that way by protecting sexual predators or by hiding money from the SEC or. Right. Like the individuals. Yes, yes. But as a collective organization, that organization doesn't always act according to its own professed values.
Jana Spangler [04:29:09] And, and how can we know without the transparency, without the conversation, without more real conversation going on from, from the top? Like, hey, we're wrestling with this. This is what happened. Instead of, this is our statement, the matter is closed.
Julie Hanks [04:29:24] Yeah.
Jana Spangler [04:29:24] You know, right?
Julie Hanks [04:29:25] Saying, hey, if you have problems with this, we get it. If, you know, we, we, this is really hard and we, we made mistakes and we're really sorry and this must be hurtful to you, like, like a healthy, mature adult would do.
Jana Spangler [04:29:38] Yes, that's.
Julie Hanks [04:29:40] It's not asking that much. It's not perfection, it's accountability.
Beau Oyler [04:29:45] What they're doing is they're establishing a way to think about this. They're saying, oh, well, you're, you're unrealistic. Expectations. Expectations. You're expecting this infallibility and nobody's infallible. Right. That these are good men who are just trying their best. And the way that that trickles down reminds me of a conversation I had with my bishop, one of the last ones, where he just said, he's like, I get it, like, Joseph Smith made some mistakes, you know, but like, do you expect him to be perfect? That's how that trickles down. They know that. They know that. And that's why this is, it ends with this.
John Dehlin [04:30:18] Who's they?
Beau Oyler [04:30:20] The producer.
John Dehlin [04:30:21] Okay.
Beau Oyler [04:30:22] Robert, he knows that. He knows that this idea trickles down to. Yeah, but like, don't expect perfection. He made some mistakes, but it's all worth it because he did so much. That's how it trickles down. That's how it comes into our words and into our lives.
Jana Spangler [04:30:36] That's the treasure in the field.
Beau Oyler [04:30:38] That's the treasure in the field.
Jana Spangler [04:30:39] I'm gonna buy the field.
Beau Oyler [04:30:41] That's exactly right. And it's like once you realize that the rest of the field has freaking hidden bombs, landmines that you didn't know about and they did know about.
Jana Spangler [04:30:55] And also there's another field over there that has some treasure and there's some fields over there that has some treasure,
Julie Hanks [04:31:01] some without as many landmines.
Beau Oyler [04:31:03] Yes. Imagine that. Yeah. So I think that's where it's the whole. It's the way it's framed is not helpful, to say the least, because of this, you know, this binary of infallibility. And nobody's expecting that. Zero. I don't know anybody who's expecting that. But when we actually look at what they did, both historically, Joe Smith, Brigham, John Taylor, et cetera, and what their actual misdeeds or infallibility is, when you actually look at it, it is far more than, oh, this person made some mistakes.
Jana Spangler [04:31:32] Yeah. And I think that gets to it. Like, this gets more confusing. You know, there are a lot of. I think there are a lot of people in the church who really believe in a certain level of infallibility when it comes to doctrine.
Beau Oyler [04:31:49] Yeah.
Jana Spangler [04:31:49] When it comes to what they're speaking in general conference, like, they'll. They'll be like they're infallible. They might, you know, lose their temper. They may not wear an ugly tie.
Beau Oyler [04:31:58] Yeah, nobody cares about your tie.
Jana Spangler [04:32:00] Exactly.
Beau Oyler [04:32:00] That's not what we're talking about.
Jana Spangler [04:32:01] But there is. There is a number, and it's. And it's because there's this conflation that they speak for God. So they. The. Ergo, they are God. Like, they are the mouthpiece. And that is where we get really squishy with the infallibility. Like, we can even go to the Old Testament. Like, you know, I think Patrick Mason was in here talking about Noah's a drunk. And, you know, and so we. We notice these things. And I think we would struggle with that more today if we found out that someone was, you know, a drunk or whatever in the top, you know,
Beau Oyler [04:32:36] would we, though? Because, like, hiding hundreds of billions depends on the dollars in secret. Shellcomb is strategically doing it for 23
John Dehlin [04:32:48] years because you're afraid the members won't pay tithing if they know how wealthy you are.
Beau Oyler [04:32:51] And then the leader of that is quoted saying what you just said, like, so I do challenge that, I think,
Jana Spangler [04:32:57] but it depends on the sin we have. We have a hierarchy of these things, and we have ways of giving people the benefit of the doubt. Well, who knew about it? Whose decision? Well, I was just a lawyer. You know, we have these ways of doing it. But if we found out that One of the 15 was a drunk.
John Dehlin [04:33:13] Yeah.
Jana Spangler [04:33:14] If we found out that one of them was an adulterer, like, yes, we would struggle more. We would struggle more. More with that. So, no, I mean, but, but yeah, it depends on how individual it is. And it depends on if there's a way versus collective.
Julie Hanks [04:33:30] Can you say, well, they, they advised us wrong. They, you know, it depends if we've
Jana Spangler [04:33:35] got enough scapegoats around it. Yeah, but yeah, we're, we are, we're, we're very, very. It gets into this really weird place when we imagine that they can be fellow about big things and personal things
Beau Oyler [04:33:50] and, and where does that come from? Right. Once again, you can, you can always.
Julie Hanks [04:33:54] The organization. The organization sets that up.
Jana Spangler [04:33:57] Absolutely.
Julie Hanks [04:33:58] And so if they could just say, I mean, how cool would it be every conference if they're like, okay, you know, let my last conference talk. Can I correct a little bit? Like that came off probably wrong. Or if they were, if there was transparency, there'd be so much more trust and there'd be so much more forgiveness for mistakes. Yep.
Beau Oyler [04:34:16] So why can't we do that? Let me give you a couple of quotes. Let's see if any of these seem familiar. Are you ready?
Jana Spangler [04:34:22] Yes.
Beau Oyler [04:34:22] Quote time. Whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same. Doctrine and Covenants 138. How about Brigham Young Journal of Discourses? When the prophet speaks, the debate is over. Then reiterated by one of the sister leaders, then by President Hinckley. Okay. And then it was reiterated again recently. Let's see. We must lean, we must learn to give heed to the words and commandments that the Lord shall give through his prophets. Okay. Harold B. Lee, 1970. Ezra Taft Benson. The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything. The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard word works. The prophet will never lead the church astray. President Hinckley, once again, when the prophet speaks, those who are listening know that it is the word of God.
Jana Spangler [04:35:16] Yep.
Beau Oyler [04:35:17] Okay.
Julie Hanks [04:35:17] Just speaking as a man.
Beau Oyler [04:35:18] They're just speaking as a man. In general conference.
Julie Hanks [04:35:20] Right.
Beau Oyler [04:35:21] Multiple times. Right. Our current president of the church, our sustaining of prophets is a personal commitment that we will do our utmost to uphold their prophetic priorities and sincerely heed their counsel. So this idea that like, oh, they're men doing their best. I take some, I leave some. Great. That's a very healthy way to Mormon. And I fully endorse that. Yes, comma, however, where does this come from? It comes from doctrine and 200 years of prophets saying, no, no, I speak for God. This is not immaturity as Terrell wants us to think. Like, oh, you're immature for thinking that God speaks to the prophet. And the sprout.
Beau Oyler [04:36:03] No, I'm not immature. I just. The prophet taught me that and still does. I mean, Sister Nelson said, my husband wakes up in the middle of the night, grabs a pen with a little light on it and writes what the Lord is dictating to him. That's where it comes from. We didn't make this up.
John Dehlin [04:36:18] But to bring it back to the film, isn't the film kind of saying that? Isn't the film kind of saying, yes, the brethren set up this expectation, but members, feel free to liberate yourself from that misperception. And I loved how it ended, almost sinisterly. It ends with the quote from none other than Dallin H. Oaks. And let's play that because I think it's a brilliant way to end. Whether an exception applies to you is your responsibility. You must work that out individually between you and. And the Lord. I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves. If you can get into that space
Beau Oyler [04:36:59] where you believe in yourself, you believe
John Dehlin [04:37:02] that God can speak to you, then
Beau Oyler [04:37:06] I think you can have a healthy life of faith. Agreed, John?
John Dehlin [04:37:13] What?
Beau Oyler [04:37:13] Agreed what with what he said, except
Julie Hanks [04:37:17] the church, the leaders also teach against that.
Jana Spangler [04:37:20] They do, Right.
Julie Hanks [04:37:21] You will never get personal revelation that goes against contradict.
Jana Spangler [04:37:25] And that's how you know you're off the. Yes, off the path. Right. And I think we've been in this tension since the very beginning. I actually think that as I read the. I'm no expert, but I'm a lifelong church member. Right. But as I read Joseph Smith, one of the things that inspires me about what he was trying to bring to the restoration was this idea of personal revelation, of no mediator between you and God. I think that Russell Nelson, President Nelson, has been very strong in this, trying to tell people to get their own individual revelation.
Jana Spangler [04:38:02] You know, there are many quotes and there are some quotes from some pretty. I have some quotes from Bruce Armor Conkey, from, you know, Joseph Fielding Smith. I think, you know, some pretty hardcore people that were like, we want to encourage people to be prophets for themselves in their own lives. And I think sometimes we just. We don't recognize. We think, well, you have a higher position, you're higher in the hierarchy, so you know more about what I should do for my life than I do. And it's the exact opposite. If anyone is getting revelation for my life, it's going to be me. If anyone's getting revelation for my ward, it's going to be my bishop.
Jana Spangler [04:38:39] If anyone's getting revelation for my stake, it's going to Be my stake president because that's actually the way this works. And what we're doing in sustaining the people at the top is saying you get to make that decision for as church wide and you can have good advice that we really do need to take this into our lives. And I don't think that's very heretical to say that I have a lot of voices behind me, but I also, the way I understand it, I think Joseph Smith also, he had that like deep inspiration of that, like I, this conviction everyone needs to be a prophet for themselves.
Jana Spangler [04:39:14] We can all have this. I'm, I've been empowered by this. I want you all to be empowered by this. Right up until someone else is getting revelations for the church.
Beau Oyler [04:39:22] Right up until it was challenged.
Jana Spangler [04:39:23] Exactly.
Beau Oyler [04:39:24] And then the priesthood appears.
Jana Spangler [04:39:25] Exactly.
Beau Oyler [04:39:25] Hierarchy appears.
Jana Spangler [04:39:26] And we've been wrestling with this ever since. How do you balance the, the, the keys, the priesthood, the authority, with having control of your own life, seeking your own, you know, answers and everything. And honestly, if, if we as people are not doing that, we are not going to get better revelation as a group. If, if I'm just giving it all away, I will not grow spiritually. So the quotes of me in here saying we need to wrestle with it and we need to be in that paradox. That's that we do and we need to not just give it over to. Well, that's what they said.
Julie Hanks [04:40:05] Yeah.
Jana Spangler [04:40:06] And I think that it's a perfect example of it was the policy of exclusion. Because it gets really confusing really fast when you have this and then it's reversed three years later. Well, who was getting the right revelation in between there?
Jana Spangler [04:40:27] You know, was it the people who wrote articles and said, you know, I had a problem with it too, but then I really got right with the Lord and now I think the policy of exclusion is great. Or is it the people who said, you know what? No, that never felt right in my gut. And my personal revelation says, now I do think you have a message. If you've got someone in that position saying, now I need to tell the Church what to do with that.
Jana Spangler [04:40:51] And what we all probably need to do is stop fighting over that and just own our own revelation and say, well this is telling me it's wrong. And so I am called to help people who are being hurt right now. But we've got to be able to say I don't feel right about this.
Beau Oyler [04:41:06] Yeah, well that's the, that's the comma that's missed here with Elder Oak's quote with them ending with of all people, for Elder Oaks to be saying that and the comma being. Okay, let's hear the story about the woman who came up to him in state conference. Like, my parents received revelation not to pay tithing. Well, they're off.
Jana Spangler [04:41:23] Exactly.
Beau Oyler [04:41:23] Well, you know, they're living. In almost every instance, I received personal revelation. If it contradicts what the brethren are saying today, not last year or the year before 20, today I'm out. I'm not worthy of spirit. I'm not following the prophet. I'm apostasy, whatever. Like, and I don't mean out of the church. I just mean, like, I'm out of line. I'm off the covenant path because all of a sudden I received a revelation. For me, doing exactly what the Brother John, you know, said, his process of receiving personal revelation, that's healthy. It's amazing. It just can't contradict the current brethren.
Jana Spangler [04:42:00] That's right.
Julie Hanks [04:42:01] Yep.
Jana Spangler [04:42:01] And you can keep it to yourself. Yes, that's it. You can hold that opinion, but you can't say it out loud to anyone. And if you have 100,000 followers, you really can't say it out loud.
Julie Hanks [04:42:11] No. Yeah.
John Dehlin [04:42:12] Julie, I'm guessing you felt that you had inspiration guiding the things you've been sharing with your, you know.
Julie Hanks [04:42:20] Yeah, yeah. That's what I would love to tell Jacob Hansen. Like, what if God's using me just like you feel like God's using you.
Jana Spangler [04:42:28] Yep.
John Dehlin [04:42:29] Or your stake president or your area authority. Right. You probably might have said that. Like. But you do feel that.
Julie Hanks [04:42:37] Yeah, I have felt guided throughout my life with decisions and. Yeah.
John Dehlin [04:42:43] Yeah. All right. Well, I think we are all in agreement that this is a very important documentary, that it's courageous, that it's going to move the needle in positive ways. So I don't want to end in that way because I think. Can we all just say, great job, Rob Reynolds. Absolutely.
The Documentary's Tone and What It Models
Julie Hanks [04:43:04] It models respect and it. It doesn't. Other. Which is such a huge problem in the church. Oh, the, you know, those active members or those people who've left or.
Jana Spangler [04:43:14] Yes.
Julie Hanks [04:43:14] There's just so much othering going on.
John Dehlin [04:43:17] And.
Julie Hanks [04:43:17] And this really models bringing all sides together in. In a respectful way. And I think that's revolutionary for the. For the church.
Jana Spangler [04:43:27] Absolutely. And we need more of these. And look at this great discussion that this has spurred in us.
John Dehlin [04:43:32] And I hope it's almost as long as the documentary.
Julie Hanks [04:43:35] Longer.
John Dehlin [04:43:37] Go watch the documentary.
Beau Oyler [04:43:38] It's worth it.
John Dehlin [04:43:39] Watch the documentary.
Julie Hanks [04:43:42] I'll see at midnight tonight.
Beau Oyler [04:43:44] I know. Exactly.
Jana Spangler [04:43:45] And don't. And don't be thrown off when things tick you off, you know, because. Because you know what? Thank the heavens it's there to. To be having those conversations. I hope it opens up more conversations.
Beau Oyler [04:43:55] I hope so too. There's nobody I wouldn't send this to.
Jana Spangler [04:43:58] Right.
Beau Oyler [04:43:58] In. In the sense that I hope that they see it. Like, I want everyone to see this. I love that it exists. I love the people in it, seeing the different people pop up that I look up to, that I've read, that I've, you know, gone to lunch with, that have guided me, and I'm just so grateful for them. So, yes,
Jana Spangler [04:44:17] I love the audacity of Robert saying, I'm gonna do this. Yes. I'm just gonna put it out there. It doesn't exist and I'm gonna do it. Yeah, I love it.
Julie Hanks [04:44:24] You know what? I would love to hear people like, never Mormons view of this. Like, did it make them understand, like, want to be a part of it, or was it like, this is crazy. I would love to hear.
Jana Spangler [04:44:35] That would be very interesting.
John Dehlin [04:44:36] I could do an episode so never Mormons. If you watched all of it and convenient faith and want to have a panel, I think that'd be so cool where we get your feedback.
Jana Spangler [04:44:45] I would love that.
John Dehlin [04:44:46] What you need, what you need to do never Mormons is as you watch it, write the time codes of the parts that you think are most shocking or cool or interesting or controversial. Write the episode and the start and start and stop time code, and we'll get Julia to put together the clips and then we'll do an episode.
Beau Oyler [04:45:04] It'd be cool to do one of those call in ones like you did a while back, right, where people can call in and they get three minutes to kind of talk about their. Really cool.
Julie Hanks [04:45:12] Because I'm curious to know, like, does it tip the scales, like, toward or against from people who aren't. They don't have, you know, dog in the fight. So.
Jana Spangler [04:45:21] And I want to know how many people this is going to reach, that the documentary is going to reach, that. That this is really, really helpful. I mean, I heard, I saw in just some comments of people like, man, if I had had this when I went through, would it might have changed my trajectory? It might have. You know, and this is. This is just. It's what I felt like I was when I first started having questions. I just longed for someone within the church that could hold space for those and not just be like, okay, yeah, you're having problems. But like, oh, what are those issues? Oh, I Can see how that would be troubling. You know, I validate. Yes. Like, I just wonder how many people can. Will be helped by this.
John Dehlin [04:46:07] Let me ask. Let me end with this question first. Let me just thank Trevin on. He's been moderating the comments from Europe. It's like, super early, early in the morning there, so. Trevin ON thanks for your help with moderation, and, of course, Julia, thanks for assembling these clips. Let me ask you one last question. Alternate universe. You were raised with modern approaches to church History, where the Gospel topics essays are out there and youth are being inoculated. Right. And you're raised in a church where the Restore and the Faith Matters movement is very strong and is growing, which is the way it is right now. The Faith Matters. The Restore Conference is progressive Mormon General Conference. It's big and it's growing. Faith Matters is big and it's growing, and the church is allowing it. And in that way, by not killing it, they're supporting it and endorsing it.
Beau Oyler [04:47:01] It's revelatory. Anybody who hasn't gone to a Restore, go to a store. It's like you're sitting there, I'm sitting there and I'm, like, crying, and I'm just like, this is what church should be.
John Dehlin [04:47:09] And it's coming up soon, so I
Beau Oyler [04:47:11] think it's this weekend.
John Dehlin [04:47:11] Yeah, it's. Yeah, yeah.
Jana Spangler [04:47:13] 26 and 27.
Wounds, Healing, and Returning to Faith
John Dehlin [04:47:14] Okay, so here's my question to all of you. Like, we all have our scars and our wounds and our baggage and our shrapnel because of what we went through. But. But it's fair to say the church is trying to course correct whether it's treating women better, you know, treating black people better, treating LGBT people better, being more honest in its history, even in some cases, admitting prophetic infatibility in the case of Uchtdorf and others. Like, the church is moving in all the right directions.
John Dehlin [04:47:45] So is there any universe where anyone here in the panel would go, you know what I mean? This is a church I could stay in. So in other words, Julie, if you hadn't have been pushed out above, if you hadn't have been mistreated or devalued or misled, and Jen, I think you're still sort of in. So, I mean. But okay, so if you, if you. If you had had Maxine Hanks as an advocate for the church instead of Maxine Haynes as an excommunicated whatever, is there any universe where y' all would be or even today are like, maybe I should stay so that's my final question. I'll let Jen, all of you go first.
Julie Hanks [04:48:29] Okay.
Jana Spangler [04:48:31] Yes and no.
John Dehlin [04:48:32] Okay.
Jana Spangler [04:48:33] So yes. Does my heart long for a place where I can be in community with other people who are open minded, who are open hearted, who are trying to live the gospel, who are noticing marginalized people wanting to make space for them?
Jana Spangler [04:48:47] Yes. Like no brainer for me. I would be part of that. My no is just that we are still in a paradigm with progressive Mormon General Conference where we're not making enough space for people to have their own individual journey.
Jana Spangler [04:49:09] It's actually my biggest complaint with post Mormon progressive Mormons spaces is people need a space to have their own journey and need to be heard. And what we do is we put the same 10 to 20 people. I mean, this happens with Thrive too. We put the same 10 to 20 people in front as the experts and people sit there and give their authority away to the new authority.
Jana Spangler [04:49:36] And I think that a really robust spiritual journey needs to be more encouraged to have your own personal journey. And because it wasn't any of the things I needed in progressive Mormonism, I found other spaces that have given that to me.
Jana Spangler [04:49:53] And my life is so enriched because I have outsourced some of my spirituality to spaces that are able to do that, that are able to help me develop my soul in a way that is divorced from dogma, is not totally divorced from theology, but is divorced from dogma.
Jana Spangler [04:50:16] And I wouldn't have found that without it. So I'm kind of glad that it was dissatisfying to me to find those things that have been so just soul expanding and beautiful for me. But without it, I don't know if I personally, my personality would have ever had the connection to whatever divine sources that I have today without it. So yes and no.
John Dehlin [04:50:43] Okay. All right. Beautiful. Bo.
Beau Oyler [04:50:49] There were definitely moments watching the documentary where my wife and I looked at each other and just like, did we make a mistake? Are we making a mistake?
John Dehlin [04:50:58] Can we make it work? Can we make it work now in the modern.
Beau Oyler [04:51:01] Which is what we did for many years. Yeah, many years. And so it brought those feelings back up. That's a very familiar space that we're, you know, that I'm very familiar with. I think that first of all, you know, I have no certitude around. Would I ever go back or not? Because I have nothing but curiosity. Who knows?
Beau Oyler [04:51:22] I'm open to anything at this point. I currently participate in the church exactly how I want to, like in every way that I want to. I go to Ward Parties, I go support friends, mission farewells I or baby blessings. I. If somebody needs help setting up a TV or what, like, I'm happy to participate in. In certain ways, and I do still. And.
Beau Oyler [04:51:48] And I spent three years looking behind the wizard of Oz curtain and studying the depths of that wizard to a depth that I never would have ever imagined that I could. And in so doing, I stepped out of this. What I saw, I thought was a massive, huge, eternal sandbox of spirituality. And as I stepped out of that Mormon spirituality into realizing, like, the field, right, that this massive sandbox, in fact, there's this beautiful beach and there's just these little boxes that are created along the beach. And I choose to walk along the beach now. And I just can't even fathom the spiritual experiences that I've had now in the space I am.
Beau Oyler [04:52:40] I can't even fathom being like, you know what? Actually, I'm gonna go put the baby back in. Put the toothpaste back in the tube. I'm gonna go back into this little sandbox, and this is gonna be enough for me.
Beau Oyler [04:52:55] And I know that sounds like there's moral superiority or there's, oh, I've graduated from Mormon. I know it reeks of all of that stuff. For me, it's more of this massive expansion of spirituality. And I just can't imagine letting go. Go of the beauty that I've discovered and experienced in the last three years.
John Dehlin [04:53:14] And Jana and Bo, y' all don't see progressive Mormonism being compatible or even supportive of individual spiritual exploration.
Jana Spangler [04:53:25] I do. I just don't think that we that like the organ. I think Faith Matters is amazing. They're friends. I love them. I love what they're doing. It's so important. We don't. We don't get anywhere without that. I think. And I think that we can do that individual path within the church, too. But a certain personality type like mine that just gives all my authority away to whoever is just going to tell me the right thing. It is not going to take me where I need to go the way they're doing it. Yes, it's going to open up more conversation around the history and we can get more real with it.
Jana Spangler [04:53:59] But spirituality is so much more than that. It's so much more than knowing what happened and what is right and what is true. It's not divorced from it, but there's more. There's more to it. And that is what I really want for myself and for other people. And I think even the church as it is Even without progressive Mormonism. But Mormonism is set up for this. If we.
Jana Spangler [04:54:25] It wouldn't take too many tweaks, but it would take some tweaks to make that available to everybody. I think that's what we need. We've talked about all the things that shuts down for women and for, you know, for different people in different ways here. I just want to open that up, and I. I think it can be done anywhere.
Jana Spangler [04:54:42] But we've just gotta. We've just gotta get out of this. Like, it's only about the truth claims. It's only about, you know, there was.
Julie Hanks [04:54:50] There.
Jana Spangler [04:54:50] There was a clip. Go look at the clip that Deidre says in this about just, you know, giving each other charity. Give each other charity in the way that we're talking about this and the way that we're doing it. That's what I want. And I want people to be able to have the dignity of their own experience and to be able to chat with somebody about that and have the other person say, wow, I've never thought about it that way. All of us need that experience. Not just. Well, let me quote what somebody else said, because now they're my new authority. I just think there's a danger in it. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. I love faith matters. I love restore. There's a danger in it stopping there.
John Dehlin [04:55:33] Yeah.
Beau Oyler [04:55:34] Yeah, I think so. Like, that's. You know, I also. It also comes down to, like, the parts of Mormonism that have blessed my life so much. So much I still practice, I have brought with me on the journey down the beach. There's nothing holding hard work and honesty and love and. And, you know, these. These great values. Right? There's nothing that's holding them back. They're chained to the sandbox. The beauty that I grew up with and was raised and have practiced my life, I've brought with me. I just don't have to step on the landmines of sexual shame, of cognitive dissonance, of Mosiah 3:19, enemy of, enemy to God. Like, I don't have to stand. I don't have to be afraid of all these landmines that are in my sandbox anymore. That's amazing.
Jana Spangler [04:56:23] This is what I always say, and I'm sure Julie is going to feel the same way with her clientele that I have never seen anyone deconstruct. They people deconstruct the right things. They deconstruct the things that are damaging. They don't deconstruct the deep values the honesty, the.
Julie Hanks [04:56:41] Yes, there's no need to. No, there's no need.
Jana Spangler [04:56:44] I've never had someone come in my office and say, you know, I'm thinking. I'm thinking of robbing banks. And I'm thinking now that I don't really need to love my neighbor. Yeah, no one does that.
Beau Oyler [04:56:53] I'm going to love less now.
Julie Hanks [04:56:55] Right.
Jana Spangler [04:56:56] I think I've just given a little too much love to people like I. That doesn't happen. We deconstruct. Which tells me something. Yeah. That. That the human soul is deeply trustworthy, especially if you've had a decent upbringing. And then Mormonism gives us that. Yes, it gives us a really good upbringing that helps draw us to those deep values.
John Dehlin [04:57:21] All right, Julie, you have the last word.
Julie Hanks [04:57:23] Yeah.
John Dehlin [04:57:23] The question was take away all the trauma. Take away all the trauma you have experienced in the church.
Julie Hanks [04:57:29] Yeah.
John Dehlin [04:57:29] And being pushed out now that you see progressive Mormonism really taking hold. If you were to subtract all the trauma, is there anything about the current progress and direction of the church that might be compelling for you to stick around?
Julie Hanks [04:57:47] No, because I've sadly. Like, it's not what I thought it was. And so just kind of like both of you were saying, I'm taking. It's like it was this. And now I feel like I'm living this. And it's. It's part of me, but it's so much bigger that. Yeah, it would feel like going back in this little.
Julie Hanks [04:58:12] And. And I just. I've lost trust, I think, with the institution. Like, oh, you're not what you claim to be. And that's really. And there I can see all the good things and I appreciate all the good things it's given me.
Julie Hanks [04:58:28] But I. Having just recently stepped away, like eight months ago, I feel so light, I feel so free. I feel so happy. I feel so much more love. I'm more in the present. And so it's really hard for me to imagine going from here to here and. But I mean, I'm curious and open to whatever that that could change. But at least where I am now, it's. It's hard for me to imagine that given the journey.
John Dehlin [04:59:01] People ask me all the time, like, John, if you could. If you could make the church change 10 things, would. Would. Then you go back. Like, if the church would say, okay, Julie, I'll do your top 20 things. If the church were to ask you that and then do the 20 things
Julie Hanks [04:59:14] you said, yeah, but it's not.
John Dehlin [04:59:15] Would you go back?
Julie Hanks [04:59:16] It's not just about Doing the things that are. Stop doing the things that are harmful. I, I've just come to fundamentally it's not what it claims to be. And, and that. So going back to how, you know, it just doesn't feel like that would. Is possible. But I'm open.
Jana Spangler [04:59:37] Yeah, I mean, can I say one thing about that that I see and that is that progressive Mormonism is not a monolith. And this is kind of what I started, started saying at the beginning. There are different ways to hold this. And there is a segment of progressive Mormonism that is just in tease. A Brian McLaren framing of simplicity, complexity, perplexity and harmony. They're pretty comfortably right in complexity, which means they haven't really gone to the. Is this what it claims to be? That perplexity stage is a whole different animal. And there are a whole bunch of people at Restore and that follow Faith Matters. They have both. And I think they better serve the complexity than they do the perplexity. Although they are very open and very empathetic to the perplexity. And some are there, some are there. But I think that perplexity is what gets you in trouble with the church.
Julie Hanks [05:00:37] Yeah.
John Dehlin [05:00:39] What's interesting, complexity and perplexity.
Jana Spangler [05:00:41] So complexity is, okay, you start with simplicity and you know, you're all about the authority figures and the simple message. Complexity is. Well, we can look at the problems, we can look at polygamy, we can look at all the, you know, all of what's going on in this and I think all of the conversation most of us have around it is in complexity. Like we just gotta, you know, have some better explanations for this. And there's probably a ten step plan that can help you get through this. That's complexity. Perplexity is what, what is this? What does, does, are prophets. Is that real? Is it, is, is, is there even a God? Is there what, who am I? What.
Beau Oyler [05:01:26] Internalizing it?
Jana Spangler [05:01:27] I mean, and it is in a deep, deep place of questioning, of like the, the ground has been pulled out from under me. And that is a different thing. And I don't know that anyone has gotten to the place where we can wrestle with that because that's the place where that individual comes out. There's no 10 step plan for it. There is only ministry. There is only sitting with you and letting you know you're not alone. There's only letting you go to the bottom of whatever question that is without fear of what that's going to mean because I trust you and I'm going to be with you to pop out on the other side, that is a completely different thing. This is not. Just let me give you some fancy answers on how to cope.
Beau Oyler [05:02:17] And I will say there are people that are core to the Faith Matters community who have those conversations privately.
Jana Spangler [05:02:24] Agree with. Agreed.
Beau Oyler [05:02:26] Privately.
Julie Hanks [05:02:27] There's no place for.
Beau Oyler [05:02:28] There's no place for it.
Jana Spangler [05:02:29] Well, and. And to. To their defense, it. It would fall apart pretty quickly if they did.
Beau Oyler [05:02:36] Yeah.
Jana Spangler [05:02:36] So I love what they're doing. They need to do that. And also it would probably help some people who are in perplexity that are looking to Faith Matters to know. To know that and to be clear about it. Because for me, I could not just do progressive Mormonism. It is going outside that, into the places outside of our community that are doing perplexity and a different kind of reconstruction that give me the tools to even survive in progressive Mormonism. I didn't get them within our community. I went outside our community. I supplemented there.
Final Reflections and the Future of Mormonism
John Dehlin [05:03:17] It's like Richard Roar falling upwards.
Jana Spangler [05:03:20] Brian McLaren.
Beau Oyler [05:03:21] Right.
Jana Spangler [05:03:22] And there. And it's not just them. I mean, that's where I have a deep connection to the center for Action and Contemplation. And they're doing it. But there's a whole host of just beautifully spiritual people out there that they partner with sometimes, but that are out there writing books and doing things. Rachel Held Evans the Rob Bells the. There are so, so many people in that community and it is so healing and sometimes less threatening than doing it within our. Just our community because we're young, we're new at this, and we do not know how to hold perplexity. We really don't.
John Dehlin [05:04:02] There aren't a lot of religions that do perplexity. I mean, I think for sure, probably some versions of liberal Judaism, maybe Unitarian Universalists, maybe some extreme versions of Catholicism.
Julie Hanks [05:04:16] Fowler says the organized religion seeks to maintain stage three out of stage six out of six stages. So they're. They don't exist to do that. That's not their core function. And it seems like it's. It's the mystics, it's the prophetesses outside of organized religion that are the ones that. That are kind of leading the way for the perplexity.
Jana Spangler [05:04:39] Absolutely. And there's a theoretical place. Ken Wilber talks about this. Richard Rohr talks a little bit about this. There's a theoretical place where we could have. You'd have to have leadership who understands this whole territory that could hold both. I've actually had conversations with some people outside our faith, pastors who have been able, at times, it didn't Last, but at times, to hold, like, a progressive church with a. With an orthodox church together in one place, it can happen, but it takes a really savvy leadership to be able to hold that together. It's probably exhausting, and it probably is. We haven't gotten there yet, but there is a theoretical place where.
Jana Spangler [05:05:28] Where we could have a conveyor belt through. Through development of state of faith stages where, you know, maybe you meet with these people and. And then it's just not so painful when you fall off the cliff, there's someone to catch you and. And shepherd you through. Right now that's disjointed. You've got to go searching for it yourself. But that's why I say, if I were born in it, and I, you know, I was inoculated, and in some ways, I was. I. I'm one of those that. I'm like, you didn't learn that? I learned that. I. I actually knew everything that was in the CES letter before it ever came around. And I'm like, okay, well, yeah, there it all is all in one place.
Beau Oyler [05:06:02] But you didn't get perplexed. You didn't. It did not perplexity until you allowed it to sink in and internalize. What does this mean?
Jana Spangler [05:06:10] Well, I had to have my own cognitive dissonance in my own life that opened me up to a new way of seeing it, because it's not about what to see, it's about how to see.
Julie Hanks [05:06:20] Yeah.
Jana Spangler [05:06:20] And. And that's the part we're still not getting to, is the how to see.
Beau Oyler [05:06:26] And that's where the catchphrase right now of, oh, I read the CS letter and it strengthened my testimony is so hot right now. Right. So hot. I keep hearing it again and again. And it's because of the how. Right. They're not digesting and internalizing and. And reading it in such a way that they can. That I could see it clearly because I read it when I was. When I was bishop. Someone gave it to me.
Jana Spangler [05:06:48] Yeah.
Beau Oyler [05:06:49] I read it, the whole thing, all 85 pages, praying every time that I opened it up that it would not hurt my testimony, that I would have the spirit and help me to understand it. But I didn't digest any of it. None of it. Did I say, what does this mean for the way that I view my church?
Jana Spangler [05:07:06] Absolutely.
Beau Oyler [05:07:06] And how I'm gonna, you know, dedicate my time, talents, and everything with which the Lord has blessed me to it?
Jana Spangler [05:07:11] Absolutely.
Beau Oyler [05:07:12] Until I did.
Jana Spangler [05:07:13] Absolutely.
Beau Oyler [05:07:14] All right, so Elder Holland's deathbed. He remembers, oh, my Gosh, I had these two lunches with this guy named John Dehlin, and I actually told him that I wish there were a hundred. Don Johnson, John Delins. Call. Call John de Lynn. I want him here for this very moment to which he reaches out his, you know, lovely apostolic hands, and he holds your hands in them, and. And he says, brother John, come back.
Jana Spangler [05:07:45] And then he gives a talk in general conference where he says that in a wide way, we are welcoming the members, like John Glenn.
Beau Oyler [05:07:54] What do you do?
John Dehlin [05:08:01] Well, man, do I lie to him and say, all right, I'll come back, let him die, and then do whatever I want just to be kind to the man on his deathbed? That's what I like.
Beau Oyler [05:08:13] He was kind to you at lunch when he said he wants a hundred thousand gondolins in the church.
John Dehlin [05:08:19] Yeah, I think it'd be. I. I really miss church. I want to go back to Sacrament meeting. If I thought it wouldn't make Margi furious and my kids furious, I think I would occasionally drop into Sacrament.
Beau Oyler [05:08:32] You came to mind my farewell talk.
John Dehlin [05:08:34] Yeah, I know. I went to a activity last week. I went to a golf scramble as a ward activity. It's the first word activity I've been to in 10 years. But I. I do miss being in a ward, and I miss knowing my neighbors, and so there's a lot I miss. And. And when I watch the. An Inconvenient Faith and when I go to Restore, there's. I feel really strong pangs of, like, man, what if I had just shut up and not done the podcast and. Or what if I'd done the podcast 10 years later? Could I have avoided, you know, being kicked out, and then I could have stayed and I wouldn't have had to choose. I still feel all that stuff, but, you know, to. I think it would just go against my own values to either lie about the temple. I don't want to be.
Julie Hanks [05:09:22] This is.
John Dehlin [05:09:22] This is what it came down to, why I didn't shut down the podcast when the ultimatum was delivered. I don't want to lie and go against my integrity. I don't want to be silent. One of the reasons I don't want to be silent is because I can't justify all the people that are being harmed in the church. And if I'm just silent, then I feel like I'm complicit in the harm. So I can't lie. I can't shut it down. I don't want to deceive people, and I don't want to be a second Class citizen in my own church. I don't want to be. Everyone else can go to the temple, but I can't. Everybody else can have all the blessings, and I can't. And so I.
Jana Spangler [05:09:58] And the church taught you all of that?
John Dehlin [05:10:00] Yeah. Yeah.
Jana Spangler [05:10:00] They instilled it.
John Dehlin [05:10:01] Oh, for sure.
Jana Spangler [05:10:01] And then you took your integrity.
John Dehlin [05:10:03] Mormonism led me out of Mormonism. Yeah. So unfortunately, Elder Holland, I can't do it.
Beau Oyler [05:10:08] Well, I love you anyway.
John Dehlin [05:10:12] I'll see you on the other side.
Julie Hanks [05:10:15] Or not.
Beau Oyler [05:10:15] Or not.
John Dehlin [05:10:18] All right. Well. Well, I feel super bad. On the one hand, I feel super bad that we went five hours.
Julie Hanks [05:10:23] On the other hand, John, we wouldn't expect any. Anything less.
Jana Spangler [05:10:27] This is locked out today. This is surprising.
John Dehlin [05:10:30] Well, I don't think it's all my fault that we went five hours. Can I say that?
Jana Spangler [05:10:33] That's the expectations. It's never all your fault, John. You ask great questions, and this is a place where those of us that come here are just dying to have good conversation like this.
John Dehlin [05:10:44] You're saying you had informed consent? Is that what you're saying?
Jana Spangler [05:10:49] And honestly, John, I'm so grateful for this. The. The way that you have provided this. I can't imagine a world where Mormon stories didn't exist on my journey.
Julie Hanks [05:10:59] Yeah.
Jana Spangler [05:11:00] So I'm just so grateful for what you do.
Beau Oyler [05:11:02] Same.
Julie Hanks [05:11:03] Me too.
John Dehlin [05:11:04] Thanks, y'. All.
Julie Hanks [05:11:05] Yeah, thank you.
John Dehlin [05:11:05] So does that mean we should do this again, but just two hours instead of five? Is that what you're saying?
Jana Spangler [05:11:09] Yeah, sure.
John Dehlin [05:11:09] Are you all signing up?
Jana Spangler [05:11:11] We can shoot for that.
John Dehlin [05:11:12] Can we be the change we want to see? What?
Beau Oyler [05:11:14] Inconvenient Faith Part two.
John Dehlin [05:11:16] If all we did is once a month, pick the top five issues that happened, current events that happened that month, and just talked about it for a
Jana Spangler [05:11:25] couple hours, I'm in. I love this group.
John Dehlin [05:11:27] We could order wings or pizza. What are we ordering to eat burgers.
Julie Hanks [05:11:31] Whatever.
Jana Spangler [05:11:32] Whatever.
Julie Hanks [05:11:33] Yeah, I'm down.
Beau Oyler [05:11:35] Change it up every month.
Jana Spangler [05:11:36] Down.
Beau Oyler [05:11:36] That's right. And go watch An Inconvenient Face. Go watch it. Share it with your friends. Work, hopefully the future of Mormonism.
Jana Spangler [05:11:44] Yeah. And watch some of the discussion around it, because there's some great fun. I mean, I. I would. I would pay admission to what happened between you. You and Bill and our.
Julie Hanks [05:11:52] Oh, yeah, that was awesome. It's like John the Apologist is coming out.
Beau Oyler [05:11:56] I love it. I love how they paint you with Jim. It's great. And Jim's just like.
John Dehlin [05:11:59] I love it. Oh, all right. Well, we love you, Robert. Thank you. Thanks, Jim. Thanks, everyone. Who's involved in An Inconvenient truth. Thanks, Julie. Keep up the good work.
Julie Hanks [05:12:11] Thank you.
John Dehlin [05:12:11] And inconvenient faith. I keep doing that. It's an inconvenient faith, not inconvenient truth. Julie, maybe I know more than many what some of what you've experienced. And so from the bottom of my heart, thank you for all you've done for our people. Thank you and the sacrifices you've made to help make our people healthier.
Julie Hanks [05:12:29] Thank you.
John Dehlin [05:12:30] And thanks for coming on the podcast.
Julie Hanks [05:12:32] Thanks for the invitation, Jenna.
John Dehlin [05:12:34] Thanks for all your wisdom. You're like a wisdom bomb.
Julie Hanks [05:12:38] Yeah.
John Dehlin [05:12:39] You're a human wisdom bomb.
Jana Spangler [05:12:40] Thank you.
John Dehlin [05:12:41] So thanks for coming on, neighbor. You're like a block away.
Jana Spangler [05:12:44] I know. We're neighbors.
John Dehlin [05:12:46] I haven't seen you in a couple years.
Jana Spangler [05:12:47] I know. It's so, so not okay. It's because we're not in the same word. We don't see each other. We live in Salt Lake and we're a block away and we're not in the same word. That's why we don't see each other.
John Dehlin [05:12:56] And Bo, thanks for making all this happen.
Beau Oyler [05:12:58] Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for joining.
John Dehlin [05:13:00] Can we do this again?
Beau Oyler [05:13:01] Let's do it again.
John Dehlin [05:13:01] All right.
Beau Oyler [05:13:02] I love it.
John Dehlin [05:13:02] All right. Hi to Heather, if Heather's still watching. Okay.
Julie Hanks [05:13:06] Delightful. Thanks. Thanks.
Beau Oyler [05:13:08] Thanks, John.
John Dehlin [05:13:09] Yeah. Thanks to Julia for moderating time code show show notes, moderating the clips, all that stuff. Thanks to Brooklyn for post production. Thanks to all the donors that make this possible. Thanks to all the viewers who follow us in the live chat. Please share like subscribe. Donate to Mormon Stories if you can mormonstories. Org Donate. Thanks to everyone who makes this possible. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. Watch An Inconvenient faith and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care, everybody.
Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.
Thumbnail Credits: Image of John Dehlin provided by John Dehlin; Image of Patrick Mason from his social media profile; Image of Maxine Hanks by Maxine Hanks; Image of Sandra Tanner from the Mormon Stories Studio; Image of Jeremy Runnells taken from An Inconvenient Faith; Image of Richard Bushman from Chris Samuels of the Salt Lake Tribune; Background image of the National Park Service.
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John, I love and appreciate you and Margi for you have done for me in the 25 years since I left. I watched you wrestle with your own faith journey with margi at your side in and then out of the church. I have been watching you since 2008. I am in a mixed faith marriage and have been married 41 years. I possibly could not have done it without your help with Mormon Stories. My wife is very orthodox and has ancestors going back to the Knight family. We have fought over church issues for about 25 years and are only now able to talk more calmly over our differences. Most of the turbulence was on my part and our kids suffered much because of all of this. As much as I would like my wife to join me out of the church I realize how much joy and support she gets from belonging. I no longer wish to take that away from her so am more careful how I handle our differences. I don’t have the money to support you but want to tell how much I appreciate the help you have been to me. I say this through tears. Thank you