In this powerful and first-ever interview with a Latter-day Saint convert from Kenya, we explore the remarkable faith journey of Dr. Joe Ngatia (pronounced “ga-tia”). Africa has become one of the fastest growing regions for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, yet Joe’s story reveals the complexities behind that growth – from faith and miracles to history, race, and resilience.
Joe shares his encounter with the missionaries and how his family first reacted having only heard rumors about “Mormons being devil worshippers.” His story moves from Nairobi to Rexburg, Idaho, BYU-Provo, and on to medical school in Florida, chronicling his faith, struggles with racism in America, and developing cracks in his testimony. Joe reflects on questions of revelation, truth, miracles, and identity – asking what it means to remain true to one’s own spiritual experiences while confronting painful history?
This is one of our most profound and far-reaching conversations yet – bridging continents, beliefs, and experiences in search of understanding.
Episode Transcript
Host: John Dehlin · Guest: Joe Ngatia
This transcript is machine-generated and lightly edited for readability. The audio is authoritative. Please excuse occasional errors in names and spelling.
Introduction and Welcome
John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is October 7, 2025, and today we are super excited to have with us for the first time in Mormon Stories Studio, a human, a person who joined the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints from the country of Kenya. His name is Joe Ghatia. Hey, Joe, how's it going?
Joe Ngatia [00:00:23] Doing great. Thank you for having me.
John Dehlin [00:00:25] Thank you so much for coming to our studios to be on Mormon Stories.
Joe Ngatia [00:00:28] Absolutely. Thank you for inviting me.
John Dehlin [00:00:31] And there's several reasons why we're super excited to have Joe on the podcast. Number one, his outline is just fantastic. He's got a great story. We've also, as far as I know, never interviewed anyone from Kenya before. Joe's also a medical doctor here in the United States, and his Mormon journey begins in Africa, and it continues to present day in whatever flavor it now is here in the United States. But for those of you who don't know much about the LDS Church or the Mormon Church, the single continent that is experiencing by far the most growth in all of the LDS Church is the continent of Africa, and specifically sub Saharan Africa. And so we have certainly not had enough Africans on on Mormon Stories podcast, and now is a better time than any to do that. And I'm really excited to hear Joe's perspective on joining the church in Africa and the church's growth in Africa. But we're going to be talking about all sorts of things, including Joe's faith journey. And the final thing I'll say is that here on Mormon Story Studio, our motive is to build bridges, to help build understanding, to help promote peace, and to help provide support for people who want to learn more about Mormonism or the church, to hear people's stories, to develop empathy for all the different types of, you know, Mormon and LDS experiences that there are. So, without any further ado, Joe got the welcome to Mormon Stories podcast.
Joe Ngatia [00:02:14] Thank you very much. Thank you for that very warm introduction. And absolutely. I absolutely like, you know, the part about breeding, building bridges, obviously, because I think there's enough hostilities in the world that we don't need to contribute to that. And so thank you for that.
John Dehlin [00:02:34] My pleasure. I should also mention, just right up front, and I'll try and mention this at the end, Joe just let me know that he just recently published a book. It's called A Quest for New Dawn Again by Joe Gatia, MD, medical doctor. And that's exciting. Writing a book is a real accomplishment. And I can. I haven't Read the book. But I have read your outline, and your writing's fantastic. So if the book's anything like your outline, people should get it.
Joe Ngatia [00:03:02] Thank you very much. Appreciate that.
Life Before the Mormon Church
John Dehlin [00:03:05] All right, so I guess. I guess let's jump in. So where does your Mormon story begin? And do you have a life before your Mormon story?
Joe Ngatia [00:03:19] Yes. I was born in Kenya. And so, as you said in the introduction piece, I was one of, I suppose, the third generation from the time Kenya became independent from British colonialism. So my parents were both educated. They were high school sweethearts, and they got married while they were still doing their A level. That's like, after high school, there's two more grades before you. You went to college. And so they got married at that point, but the marriage broke apart when I was still a baby. And so by the time I came to know myself, I found myself in the custody of my maternal grandparents. So I grew up under the care of my grandparents in the village that's on the foothills of Mount Kenya. My village rests about 6,000ft above sea level, so I'm a mountain person. And so. And so because of the breakup of the marriage, my mom had to leave us and go back to the city, and she.
John Dehlin [00:04:26] Which city?
Joe Ngatia [00:04:26] Nairobi city, which is the capital city of Kenya.
John Dehlin [00:04:29] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [00:04:29] And so she work just for a job. Yeah, to go work and support us and her sibling. Younger sibling. And so I grew up believing my grandparents were my parents. Whenever my mom came, you know, we caught hygiene like everybody else. You know, I was always surprised there was a stranger that would show up and how, you know, flood my whole world with joy and kisses. And I. I did not know why she liked me so much, because I thought I was just another of the siblings until it took many years before I realized that was my biological mother.
John Dehlin [00:05:00] Oh.
Joe Ngatia [00:05:00] And so. And so that's really my childhood, in essence. And. But before I was old enough, my mom got a scholarship to go to the United Kingdom. That was in 1986. And so she had to live and go overseas for years. And that's why she met the Mormon missionaries while she was a student in the United Kingdom. And she joined the church there in 1988. And so that was the introduction of the family to Mormonism. So when she came back, I was almost done with primary school. And upon her return, we moved in with her back in. We moved to Nairobi city. And, you know, she was looking for this thing that she had. You know, the church was not registered in Kenya until 1991. And so. Oh, yes. And so she was looking for the church. And eventually when she found it, you know, she brought the missionaries home and we started our investigation.
Early LDS Church in Kenya
John Dehlin [00:06:04] So is it fair to say you and your mom were some of the first members of the LDS Church in, in Kenya?
Joe Ngatia [00:06:11] If you were pioneers? I mean, the Sitatis, you know, Brother Sitatu was a member of the first QURAN of the 70 those joined the church before it was even officially registered in Kenya. And so, okay, American expatriates living in Nairobi. And so those, they had own small congregation, but not officially.
John Dehlin [00:06:30] And forgive us for not knowing or, or at least me. What is the native language of.
Joe Ngatia [00:06:36] Of Kenya, the official language of Kenya? We have Swahili and English. So those are official language. But tell us the first, the first Swahili.
John Dehlin [00:06:44] Swahili.
Joe Ngatia [00:06:45] Okay, yeah, Swahili.
John Dehlin [00:06:46] And then.
Joe Ngatia [00:06:46] And then English. Yeah, those are the dual official languages. So. But Kenya has 40 different tribe, and every tribe has its own language, which is for the many, many years, that was the, the largest tribe in Kenya. We come from central province of Kenya. So I speak Kikuyu. And of course, every other Kenyan must speak English and Swahili. So most Kenyans speak three languages.
John Dehlin [00:07:10] So you speak Swahili and obviously English
Joe Ngatia [00:07:13] and my tribal language. Okay, yeah. So that's typical of most Kenyans. Okay, yeah.
John Dehlin [00:07:19] Okay. All right, back to your story. So you're in Nairobi with your mom.
Joe Ngatia [00:07:24] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:07:25] And were you baptized today or so when.
Joe Ngatia [00:07:30] So when she brought the missionaries in, it was about 1993. And, you know, when you're a teenager, you have newly acquired freedoms and you're not about to auction them to. In religion. And so I was very hesitant to join in a church. And so my sister joined the church first. I have an, an older sister, She's a couple years older than me. And so I resisted the invitation to join the church. But I remember I went through a few sets of missionaries. And finally there was this missionary, he was from Utah and his companion was from Ghana. And when he gave me a challenge, you know, after going through the, the discussion, he said, well, you're not asking you to believe what we say, believe there's a mechanism established for you to find for yourself. And he was so persuasive to me. And he. And I remember for the first time I decided to, you know, like, you go read the book and pray about it. And you.
John Dehlin [00:08:35] Around what age?
Joe Ngatia [00:08:36] I was about 17 years old this time. 16. 17 years old. And I prayed about it. And just like, you know, it's described, you know, you have this warm feeling in your Bosom. And I can say without a doubt I felt that. And just like he had described it, and there was no doubt I had made a connection that was not just an ordinary, you know, part of your ordinary daily life. And so after that, what to do was pretty automatic. I knew I needed to join the church, and so I was baptized in April of 1994.
John Dehlin [00:09:14] 94, yes. What language did you read the Book of Mormon in? I'm just.
Joe Ngatia [00:09:18] It was in English. Yes. Most of our education system is in English.
John Dehlin [00:09:22] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [00:09:23] And so. So we have the option to teach in Swahili, but most people in Kenya would speak English.
John Dehlin [00:09:31] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [00:09:32] Yeah.
Race and the Church as a Kenyan Convert
John Dehlin [00:09:33] Now, I don't mean to get right to the kind of more serious stuff, but I have to ask because I think this is relevant. Yeah. Obviously, the. Let's just say, like many churches to try and be compassionate, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has a bit of a complicated history as it regards to race and particularly Africans in the church or people of African descent.
Joe Ngatia [00:09:57] Right.
John Dehlin [00:09:57] And of course, the LDS Church didn't allow people of African descent to be members in full standing until 1978. Right. I. I've always wondered when missionaries are teaching to Africans.
Joe Ngatia [00:10:11] Right.
John Dehlin [00:10:12] Do. Do they know that before they joined? Is it just something all Africans know? Oh, yeah. Mormons didn't allow the priest, you know, black people to have the priesthood before 78. Or did they teach it to you? Did the missionaries teach it to you? Or did you just have no idea and you joined without even knowing? And do you have thoughts or opinions about that? And I know it'll probably come up
Joe Ngatia [00:10:32] later, but that's a good question, because at the time I was joining the church, first of all, the conception of race when you live in Africa is very different from, for example, an African American living in America. You live in a country where everybody, from your president to the crook, everybody looks just like you. And so you don't have a strong racial feeling, you know, one way or another. And so, in fact, the interaction with the American missionary was perhaps one of my first interaction with white people. Was.
John Dehlin [00:11:08] Was Kenya colonized? I should know this.
Joe Ngatia [00:11:09] It was colonized by the British. By the British until 1963. That's when, you know, the independence. We attain our independence.
John Dehlin [00:11:17] And there wasn't a large population of white British, you know, expats or whatever living in Kenya.
Joe Ngatia [00:11:24] Not at the time I came of age. You know, before 1963, there was. They called them the white settlers. And so they mostly were farmers. They took the best land and there was a Conflict that was lasting a whole decade. So my grandfather was a veteran of that conflict and so the feelings were limited to that history. But I was born in the late 70s and so by the time I came of age, yeah, you had this understanding, there had been a conflict, but it was more theoretical than it was practical, you know, and so the missionaries, of course, they projected warmth and kindness, as all missionaries do. And so the idea that there was this hidden history that you did not know could not have entered my awareness. And so in fact, whenever I looked at the Utah missionary, he really was, he embodied grace, you know, and it was, you know, his smile, his kindness, his interaction with us. I could not have imagined there was such a history as I would later on come to discover. That was part of the reason it was so shocking to me when you, you know, because it really went against the grain of everything I knew about Mormonism or everything I had experienced in my conversions journey. Okay, yeah.
John Dehlin [00:12:48] So you didn't know there, there had been a priesthood ban in the LDS Church and the missionaries didn't offer that information?
Joe Ngatia [00:12:55] No. And that would come like maybe a year later and, and we'll come to that how I discovered it.
John Dehlin [00:13:01] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [00:13:01] Okay, yes.
John Dehlin [00:13:02] I'm just curious and maybe you'll talk about this, but I'm, I'm curious if they had brought it up.
Joe Ngatia [00:13:07] It never came up.
John Dehlin [00:13:08] But if they had, do you think that would have changed your mind or do you think you were. Had such an empowerful experience that maybe wouldn't have made a difference?
Joe Ngatia [00:13:19] That's a good question. I, I think at the core of it, it all depends on how it's presented. Right. If they say, well, if they told me there's a time in our theology we believed people like you were not entitled to the full blessing of the gospel, that they could only play a supporting role and that somehow you are a descendant of Cain and that you know, that your type had been preserved through the flood in order for the devil to have a representative on the earth. Those sort of things. If anybody talked to you like that would be a non starter to the conversation. That would be an equivocal no.
John Dehlin [00:13:58] Even at 17?
Joe Ngatia [00:13:59] Yeah, there is. I had enough self respect for myself even at that age. Okay, yes, yes, yes.
John Dehlin [00:14:05] But if they, is there a way that they could have presented it where it might have not been as much of a problem?
Joe Ngatia [00:14:10] I suppose you could always pen and say, well, is this unknown just how the church usually presented it? Later they said, well, for a known reason black people are kept from the Priesthood for reason that the Lord never revealed to us, you know, and if you are not scrupulous, you just take it. Take, you know, whatever they told you. And you're not doing a research. And so if there was no way, no window to the past. Yeah, that would have. It would be an easy spin.
John Dehlin [00:14:39] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [00:14:40] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:14:40] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [00:14:41] But if you are seriously looked into the details, because the devil is always in the details. Right. If you look into the details and see what the brethren, the people you admired so much in the beginning, if you see what they had say, then of course it's disconcerting.
John Dehlin [00:14:57] Okay. But either way, you weren't told and so you didn't know.
Joe Ngatia [00:15:01] I had no idea.
John Dehlin [00:15:02] And you joined because you felt like you had a witness from the spirit.
Joe Ngatia [00:15:05] And it was powerful. It was different. It was not like an ordinary. As I mentioned, when. And, and, and now I know what that came from. But when it happened, I felt like I had made a very important connection with the other world. And there's really. There's only one thing to do. It was to join the church and to say that I know with every five of my being this book is a divine book, you know, so, okay, so what happens?
John Dehlin [00:15:32] Are you 17, you get baptized?
Joe Ngatia [00:15:34] So I'm 17, and, you know, most Kenyans send their kids to boarding school for high school. So I was in a boarding school. I could not stay home. And so as soon as my baptism was done, within a week, I went back to my boarding school. I took the Book of Mormon. And I could tell my mother was very concerned when I was leaving because the church was, at this point, was getting a lot of bad publicity from the press. There was a lot of accusation that the Mormons were devil worshipers. That was a common story in the media in Kenya when as soon as they built their first chapel in Nairobi and they did not have a cross, it had a spire. They said, that's the devil's sword.
John Dehlin [00:16:16] And so is that what Aspire can mean in Kenya? Is it a double?
Joe Ngatia [00:16:20] It's just, I. I suppose it's the fiction that was concorded by the media. And they said, this is the devil's spire. These people, devil worshipers, they eat babies. And so there was a lot of bad, negative things.
John Dehlin [00:16:32] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [00:16:34] And so my mom was very concerned when I was leaving home, and she said, well, you're gonna take the Book of Mormon. This may be a problem. And, you know, I had no doubt at this point. I had a very deep conviction that this was the truth. And I had to take it with me. And I took it. And of course, all hell broke loose when I went back to my school. So I went back to school. This is 1994. I was Form 4, which is Junior in high school. And as soon as I got there, I was really excited. I was reading my book moment, I think, you know, every. At the end of the evening study every day. And I was discovering all these wonderful things. And you know, of course, when in that phase of life you just want to share with people. And I remember approaching one of the boys and I said, hey, you gotta read this book. It's really awesome. And he took it and said, this is the devil's Bible. The Bible says you cannot serve God and Mormon.
John Dehlin [00:17:33] It's not a mammon.
Joe Ngatia [00:17:34] Yeah. He said, Mormon.
John Dehlin [00:17:35] What's the predominant religion in Kenya, by the way?
Joe Ngatia [00:17:38] Most people are Christians. And so Anglicans also, you know, Catholics. But I say, I would say at that point about 80 of Kenyans who are Christians, a good chunk of Muslims, you know.
John Dehlin [00:17:50] Okay, okay.
Joe Ngatia [00:17:51] But where I come from, around Nairobi, most people are Christians.
John Dehlin [00:17:54] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [00:17:54] And so, so they knew the Bible generally. We know that the Bible was part of your school curriculum from the time you're a little kid. Oh, it didn't matter. Your Muslim, Buddhist, whatever, you had to know the Bible. Oh, it was part of the examinations.
John Dehlin [00:18:07] Got it.
Joe Ngatia [00:18:08] And I had been raised with a pretty good understanding grasp of biblical concept. So when I showed this boy my, you know, and he said, you cannot serve God in Mormon, he went to the school chaplain and he said, there's a kid with a. The devil's Bible.
John Dehlin [00:18:26] Oh my goodness.
Joe Ngatia [00:18:26] And he has it in school. And so. And of course I lost. You know, like in boarding school, you need your friends. And so when you ostracize is a big deal. And so the chaplain came the next morning. He said, who is Joe? And you know, is that devil's Bible you have? And I gave him the book. Mormon. He looked at it and he said, you are Mormon. And he had gone to theology school in the Carolinas.
John Dehlin [00:18:55] In the Carolinas, yes.
Joe Ngatia [00:18:56] Oh, and he had good Mormon friend. He said, I am so sorry, I know you're not a devil. And so they said, little misunderstanding, I'll take care of it. But I need to take this book so I can show it because the teachers also knew about this. I need to take this to the, to the staff room for them to look at it and read it if they want to read it for themselves. I've read it. I'm not a Mormon. I don't agree with the whole construct, but I know you're not what you're accused to be. And so that was good. That was good.
John Dehlin [00:19:24] I was like.
Joe Ngatia [00:19:25] But it did not save me from the fact that I lost my friends. And for quite some time, I had no friends. They were afraid of this demonic contamination from me. And so that's tough for a boy in boarding school.
John Dehlin [00:19:39] But that didn't make you want to leave the church? No.
Joe Ngatia [00:19:43] I felt really privileged that I could be persecuted for Christ to belong to the honor true church. And I had read enough to know that essentially people who believe in Christ and believe the right way, they were going to be persecuted. So this was confirmation, the highest order. Yes.
John Dehlin [00:20:01] I felt the same way in high school.
Joe Ngatia [00:20:03] Great.
John Dehlin [00:20:04] Yes.
Joe Ngatia [00:20:04] You did not, I suppose he did not grow up in Utah.
John Dehlin [00:20:07] I grew up in Texas. And most of the kids in my town were like, Baptists, you know, evangelical Christians. And I. I was excited to be persecuted.
Joe Ngatia [00:20:15] Absolutely. Yes. Me too. Right.
John Dehlin [00:20:19] Okay. So how did things go from there?
Joe Ngatia [00:20:22] So from there, so, you know, we would get school break every, you know, two or three months and you go home. And so I went home and I told the branch president, we did not have stake awards, we had a branch. The church was still very nude in Kenya. The branch president, you know, discovered from my mom. My mom was heartbroken. The boy was being, you know, persecuted. And the branch president called me to his office. He said, you know, you're very. He opened this biblical verse where Peter is locked up and they are beat up, and then they are, you know, I think they received the revelation that it is a blessing for disciples. Those who truly believe in the true gospel will be persecuted. He opened that verse and we read it together. And he said, now, I'm so glad you're so firm in the faith. You need to be ordained to be a priest now because you really do not need to forgo the blessing of sacrament. While you're gone, you can bless the sacrament for yourself.
John Dehlin [00:21:26] Oh, wow.
Joe Ngatia [00:21:27] And so this was really like strength upon strength, you know, here I have really, like, that much trust from God. I felt really special. So I was blessed. I. I got the, the, the priesthood and I became a priest. And the next time I went to school and I had the pleasure of blessing my own sacrament.
John Dehlin [00:21:47] I've never heard of people blessing their own sacraments. So you'd go, you'd be in your private school. Yes. And on Sundays you'd get a little bread out and a little bread, a
Joe Ngatia [00:21:55] little water, and bless my sacrament. And there I Was having my communion.
John Dehlin [00:21:59] I love. I've never heard of that before.
Joe Ngatia [00:22:01] It was. I really special about it.
John Dehlin [00:22:03] Yeah. Yes. That's awesome.
Joe Ngatia [00:22:05] Absolutely. It was really awesome.
John Dehlin [00:22:07] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [00:22:07] Yeah.
High School, Crisis, and Staying in the Church
John Dehlin [00:22:08] All right. So, yeah, how did high school finish up?
Joe Ngatia [00:22:13] And so, and eventually some of my friends came back. You know, they start asking honest, you know, instead of this being cynical about it, they would ask honest question about the church. And. And I regained a good chunk of my friends, you know, they came back and I remember one boy, he was a Rastafarian and he was the kindest person I knew. And he said, joe, I don't wanna hurt your feelings, but one thing I know about Mormons is they believe that white people are better than black people. And I said, kevin, that cannot be true. I mean, I interact with white people at church all the time. They are some of the kindest people. You said, no, you need to find out for yourself. And I say, and just because it was him, I, you know, had it been from an evangelical Christian, I would say, wow, this is just persecution. I said, well, Kevin, I'm going to look it up. And so my home teaching companion was a professor at one of the universities back home. And he was, he had gone to Cornell University and he had joined the church in 1975 before the priesthood revelation. And so he knew quite a bit. And so we would go home teaching and it took long distant travel for us to go find all these families we assigned to. And so. Which gave me plenty of time to talk to my good friend. And I say, you know, this is boy who accuses our good, beautiful church of racism. And he says that somehow the church had, you know, bigoted teachings. And, and the brother said, you know, Joe, there's a part of the history of this church that you don't know. And I do not want to destroy your new faith, but I need you to know, you know. And then before 19, you know, he said, remember how Brother Masibo ordained you to be a priest several, you know, months ago? That would not have happened before 1978. I said, why? He said, well, black people could not have the priesthood when I joined the church. He said, I would sit down and have little boys be ordained to their priesthood, and I could not be. And because of it, he had gone less active for many years. He had just recently come back to church and he told me, you know, he was a professor, so he was going to approach this very academically. And he goes step by step. He, the book he appealed to was the pro. Of great price. And he Went to those specific quotes where people are cursed with blackness, where the descendants of Pharaoh could not have the priesthood. And it was. It felt like I had been banished out of the Garden of Eden. I felt terrible because before this, it was all beautiful, all these awesome experiences I was having, you know, from my personal study, from blessing the sacrament for myself. But this was the most awful experience of being the biggest crisis of my young adult. You know, I don't know when you're 17 or 18 is an adult, but I felt really had been thrown into a contradiction I could not resolve. And so, yeah, that's the first time I discovered that part.
John Dehlin [00:25:32] But you didn't just leave the church.
Joe Ngatia [00:25:35] I was. I felt like I had been poisoned. And for days and days I did not know what to do.
John Dehlin [00:25:40] You were sick?
Joe Ngatia [00:25:41] Yeah, I was, you know, heartsick.
John Dehlin [00:25:43] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [00:25:43] Because I felt like I had been led to this place and, you know, hung to dry pretty much because there was not going to be an easy solution to this problem because I had had this beautiful spiritual outpouring. Right. Experiences I had never had in my life. And also now I was having this most awful experience, you know, of my life. And for quite some time I did not know what to do with it and that information. So I kinda kept praying and over time, this thing went away. You know, I. It's just. It's more like once you get diagnosed with cancer, you go into remission, you still have the disease in your body and you carry it within you, but, you know, you have the disease and it could wake up in a time and.
John Dehlin [00:26:31] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [00:26:32] You know, do you. In.
John Dehlin [00:26:33] I get that.
Joe Ngatia [00:26:33] And I just lived with it, you know.
John Dehlin [00:26:35] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [00:26:36] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:26:37] Okay. And do you think at the time you felt like, why didn't someone tell me this before I joined? Or did that not even occur to you?
Joe Ngatia [00:26:46] The people who surrounded me, it seems to me, would not have known. For example, my mother. I don't think she knew.
John Dehlin [00:26:53] Oh, okay.
Joe Ngatia [00:26:54] I don't think she knew. And she has always been more like less destruction. Leave it alone. Right. And of course, the members of our local branch, those were pretty, you know, straightforward, simple folks who did not really. Would not have pursued those sort of, you know, questions.
John Dehlin [00:27:14] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [00:27:15] The only person really in place to know that was my home teaching companion, the professor. And that's the only person who could have. Who could have made that operation to me. And so I did not have any negative feeling towards whether my branch president. I don't even think he would have known. Yeah. So.
John Dehlin [00:27:35] And all the members in your congregation were Black, Is that right?
Joe Ngatia [00:27:40] Yeah. All the members were. Were black and most of them actually came from the shanty town. The church did not attract a lot of well to do people in Kenya. It mostly attracted people because there's an association unfortunately of whiteness as seen as this, this connection that people make between whiteness and wealth. And so to see a white person approach, you would have been very attracted to a person going through struggles, financial struggles, and so they automatically warm up or whatever they say, they don't care. They just, most people just followed and they came to church hoping for some sort of help, you know. And so these. Yeah, this were mostly the members you found.
John Dehlin [00:28:25] So when there were white missionaries, that would be extra interesting or compelling or persuasive.
Joe Ngatia [00:28:33] Absolutely.
John Dehlin [00:28:34] To someone from Kenya, to a lot
Joe Ngatia [00:28:35] of people, especially poor people from the shanty towns. Yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin [00:28:40] It was the same in Guatemala and, you know, Central America. White skinned, tall Americans. Yes, always were very popular.
Joe Ngatia [00:28:49] Absolutely.
John Dehlin [00:28:49] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [00:28:50] And, yeah. And as. And I'm sure we're going to go to that. Even when you, when I went on my mission later, people listen to you because. Not necessarily because they had an interest in the Gospel, a good portion of the people wanted to interact with. We call them Muslimas, white people. See, they wanted to be in the presence of the Muslim, you know, and that's just, you know. Yeah.
Preparing for and Receiving a Mission Call
John Dehlin [00:29:13] Okay, so you, you have this sick feeling inside, but you, you stay. So how does your Mormon story continue?
Joe Ngatia [00:29:20] I continued reading my scriptures and I continue, you know, the, the feelings I had, that outpouring, that expensive warmth in the, in the bosom came back and it kind of healed all the pain I had felt from the revelation. And, and it fortified my faith in a way that nothing else could have, you know. And so I continued and I. Eventually I knew I wanted to serve a mission. Mm. And so that was on my agenda number one when I finished high school.
John Dehlin [00:29:54] So anything else happened before then worth mentioning?
Joe Ngatia [00:29:58] Let's see, anything else? I. Not particular from my faith journey other than the fact that, you know, I got ordained into the higher priesthood.
John Dehlin [00:30:08] So you became, you got the Melchizedek priesthood.
Joe Ngatia [00:30:10] Absolutely.
John Dehlin [00:30:10] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [00:30:11] When I turned 18. And so that was also a highlight of my life, you know. And at this point, before I went to. On a mission, actually something was meant. So when I finish. Of course, when you finish school in Kenya, there's a national exam. It's like gcse, like. And so it's not. It's the biggest milestone of your life. If you do poorly, pretty much your life is Pretty much minimized to being poor. And so that was a big milestone. And I passed the test. And so I could go to. We only had three public universities in Kenya. And so I got, you know, out of thousands of kids, you the honest, so many could go to those institutions. So I got qualified to go to one of the public universities. And so I had to make a big decision to go on a mission mean, meant that you have to forfeit your chance to go to, you know, to the university.
John Dehlin [00:31:10] You couldn't just defer or delay.
Joe Ngatia [00:31:12] Well, you could, and that's what my mom chose to do. But there's no guarantee they'll hold you. You know, there was a degree of corruption back in the days. And so a professor, the, the chancellor on the university could easily sell you a slot to somebody with money and sell.
John Dehlin [00:31:28] Sell yourself.
Joe Ngatia [00:31:29] Oh, absolutely.
John Dehlin [00:31:30] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [00:31:30] Corruption was a big thing growing up. You could sell anything. And so if you have a rich person kid who did not qualify, you know, that would be thousands of shillings you could make out of that. And so one of the biggest event that happened between my finishing high school and my going on a mission is that the Kenyan government escalated its conflict with the church. And so the president of Kenya, who had been president from 1978 to he, I think he finished his term in 2002, what was his name? His president? Daniel Moy.
John Dehlin [00:32:06] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [00:32:06] And so he was always suspicious of Americans in Kenya. Part of it is the introduction of democracy. He did not. Sharing power was not very attractive to him. He wanted to be president for life. And Americans had different ideas about power, political power. And so having this young American go door to door was always seen as an encroachment type, you know. You know, there was talk that Mormon missionaries were seen as CIA agents.
John Dehlin [00:32:40] Same in Guatemala.
Joe Ngatia [00:32:42] So that's the same thing.
John Dehlin [00:32:43] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [00:32:43] And so they were always suspicious and they found a way to get rid of them. They said, well, if you did not come from the British Commonwealth, meaning you, if you're not from any of the African countries who are colonized by the British or Canada or the United Kingdom, you had to get a work permit to live in Kenya. And so by the time I was, before I went on my mission, all the young American missionaries were kicked out of Kenya.
John Dehlin [00:33:08] Oh.
Joe Ngatia [00:33:08] And so there was a crisis because they needed people to fill the slots. And so I was called, before my calling came to be a companion to a full time missionary, you know, as part of trying to stem the, you know, the problem. And so I was paired with this guy and it was an eye opening experience because he was a local missionary. And I came to realize some people went on a mission for the wrong reason.
John Dehlin [00:33:39] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [00:33:40] And so this was a job for him. And so the moment we were paired, I remember the assistant to the mission president, they came over, picked me up from my house. And it was in the middle of the night. It was kind of late in the evening in the night. And on our way to the first area, this, my new companion, his briefcase, which was on the roof of the van, fell off in somewhere in the middle of the night. And so when he got to the apartment, it was missing. And he was really. His reaction shocked me. This is not very Christian, you know, he was very upset. And then he said he had 60,000 shillings, which of course it was. Obviously he didn't, but, you know, because the moment the assistant said, you know, you can get compensated for your last good by the church, you say, actually, yeah, all my clothes. And I had 60,000 shillings in that briefcase. And so the back and forth was a little disheartening because this north kind of mission, I wanted to serve. I wanted to be there for the right reasons.
John Dehlin [00:34:49] And you felt like he was there maybe for the money.
Joe Ngatia [00:34:51] He was there for the money. There was no doubt.
John Dehlin [00:34:53] And you weren't even called as a full commissioner yet.
Joe Ngatia [00:34:55] No, not yet.
John Dehlin [00:34:56] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [00:34:57] And so the week I was with him, all we did was go around the city, go eat in nice cafes. And I was really. And I did not know what to do. I felt like I was a hostage, more or less. I had to follow him, whatever. He took me. And he started talking about some girl he needed to be with. And I'm like. And that really shocked me. And I'm like, I did not want to be a lookout where he performed Kamasutra on his love interest. And I said, it's not the kind of mission I want to be in. And fortunately, I was rescued out of that situation when the APs came, and they say, now you can go home. We're going to combine a bunch of missionaries and you can go home and wait for your mission call. But it was a very disheartening experience for me.
John Dehlin [00:35:50] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [00:35:51] But in some way, it gave me an idea of what I was going into and what I needed to prepare myself for. And so when I went, you know, I knew I was not going to do this kind of thing. I. I would take my place in the university other than waste my time doing that.
John Dehlin [00:36:05] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [00:36:05] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:36:06] Okay. Was there a temple in Kenya at the time?
Joe Ngatia [00:36:10] No, there Was no temple in Africa anywhere other than in Johannesburg, South Africa? Yes.
John Dehlin [00:36:16] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [00:36:16] And so I think the next temples were built in West Africa very recently, in the last decade.
John Dehlin [00:36:23] How did they allow missionaries to take out their endowments then?
Joe Ngatia [00:36:27] We didn't.
John Dehlin [00:36:28] What?
Joe Ngatia [00:36:29] Oh, that's another part that's different. So when I was finally called to be a missionary, it was at a time the mission was also in. Not in the best condition. It seemed like the missionaries were, as I said, were going about doing whatever, you know, the American missionaries were moved to because the Kenyan Arab mission had four countries in it. It had Kenya, it had Uganda, had Tanzania, and Ethiopia. All that was one mission.
John Dehlin [00:36:57] Wow.
Joe Ngatia [00:36:58] It was humongous. And because of that distance, I think some missionaries do not always follow the rules. And so the mission president more or less had lost control of the situation. So by the time I come on my mission, so we were called and we went to the mission home. That's why we were set apart. And it wasn't a happy situation. The mission president looked very sad. His wife was teary, and it was not a happy occasion. And I would come to find out soon, very soon, why this was going on. Because he had just been released early from his mission. Oh, yeah. He had been sent home, you know, out of there. They needed to get control of this situation. And so. But after your ordination, to be. After you're set apart to be a missionary, the night before, the next morning, you are prose riding. You did not go to the temple.
John Dehlin [00:37:55] Oh.
Joe Ngatia [00:37:56] You did not go to an empty sea.
John Dehlin [00:37:57] That's something I've also never heard of, is missionaries not taking out their endowments before their mission. I've never heard of that.
Joe Ngatia [00:38:05] Yeah, that never happened. I was. I did not got my. I did not get my endowment until I moved to America after my mission.
John Dehlin [00:38:13] Wow.
Joe Ngatia [00:38:13] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:38:14] I mean, I have to imagine the church had money back then. Like, you know, they. It seems like they could have afforded it to just fly to South Africa or. Or maybe would that have been the closest.
Joe Ngatia [00:38:25] That would be the closest temple that'll be for our flight to go there and come. Maybe they would.
John Dehlin [00:38:29] I. I mean, I would imagine they would create an MTC in South Africa Mission Training Center. Fly all missionaries there like they do in the United States. They fly all missionaries to Provo.
Joe Ngatia [00:38:41] Right.
John Dehlin [00:38:42] And in their MTC experience.
Joe Ngatia [00:38:45] Right.
John Dehlin [00:38:45] If they weren't able to go to the temple, wherever they live, they would do that at the mtc. I wonder why the church didn't do that for y'. All.
Joe Ngatia [00:38:54] I think cost savings, mostly. I don't, I, I don't imagine they presume we are so valiant that we could have done without the temple. You know, they would, they would not have thought that an African is so much more faithful, that the temple blessing would have been secondary. So I would think it's mostly cost savings.
John Dehlin [00:39:18] Yeah. But I mean, I just have never heard of that. It's. That's not true in South America. That's not true in Central America.
Joe Ngatia [00:39:24] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:39:26] At least I've never heard of it before.
Joe Ngatia [00:39:28] And it's probably not true now.
John Dehlin [00:39:29] Yeah, yeah.
Joe Ngatia [00:39:30] Even in Africa. But at the time I served my
John Dehlin [00:39:33] mission, I mean, honestly. Okay. I could think of one thing. Knowing what I know about South Africa and the book Second Class Saints.
Joe Ngatia [00:39:41] Yes.
John Dehlin [00:39:42] There might have been a majority of white members in South Africa at the time, and there would have probably still been a lot of residual racism and they probably wouldn't have wanted black people entering the temple in the early 90s in, in South Africa. I don't know. I'm speculating.
Joe Ngatia [00:40:04] And you know, though, I'm sure there were some rich Africans who had gone to the temple. Yeah, okay, right. But it's also a good point you raised because now you'd have had a whole lot of people coming to their temple as opposed to an occasional person. Yeah, right. And so that might have played a role in. And then, of course, the African, the average African would not have the, the financial means to fly to. You know, the church would have had to foot the bill from the beginning. The travel, accommodation, and every part of that experience. And. Well, could the church afford it? I presume.
John Dehlin [00:40:44] I mean, today the church has 300 billion. They probably didn't have that much back then, but they had billions and billions anyway. That's interesting.
Joe Ngatia [00:40:53] Yes. So. So I was set apart one evening. The next morning I was, you know, the APS drove me to my first area of assignment and that was, you know, in, in the same city where I come from, but on the other side of the city. I, I really didn't know many people there.
John Dehlin [00:41:11] Oh, wow. They didn't even. You didn't even go to a different country. You stayed in the same city.
Joe Ngatia [00:41:15] Oh, that's another point I gotta tell you. So when I received my mission call. Right. So of course I come from Utah and of course I was. I absolutely believe that the Lord spoke to the prophet and told him, Joe got, you need to go such and such place. And this, of course, you cannot receive the Lord's word. You know, the Lord says, you're going here that's why you go. Because no human being could be wiser than God. But the interesting thing, when I received my mission call, where a mission was going, it had be crossed. Somebody had crossed with a pen and written the Kenyan narrative mission. It said Zimbabwe Harare mission. But then somebody had crossed and written Kenyan Nairobi mission. And I suppose it happened because now we have a new emergency where the Americans are being kicked out. And the Lord had not anticipated this, you know, and so somebody had, you know, their assignment had to be rearranged after the fact.
John Dehlin [00:42:18] Now in the us, you know, you believe that your temple calling, it's signed by the prophet, right. So you just believe it's sacred that God sent you to whatever place you end up. And the prophet signed it.
Joe Ngatia [00:42:30] Right.
John Dehlin [00:42:31] So again, they would never do that with American missionaries. Just like cross out with a pen,
Joe Ngatia [00:42:36] with the pen and handwritten Kenya Nairobi mission instead of what was there before. And so, yeah, like it kind of inserted some doubt, you know, in my head.
John Dehlin [00:42:46] That makes sense.
Joe Ngatia [00:42:47] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:42:48] And I mean, it's, it's a new country, you know, so the church was just figuring stuff out, I guess.
Joe Ngatia [00:42:53] Absolutely.
John Dehlin [00:42:54] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [00:42:54] Okay. Yes.
Serving as a Missionary in Kenya
John Dehlin [00:42:55] So how was your mission?
Joe Ngatia [00:42:58] The mission, of course, I was not in a new environment, but I mean, I was in my country. So that was. That bit of, you know, the geographical, political, social environment was not. Was pretty familiar to me. But my first companion was a British guy and he was absolutely the most hard working person I ever met.
John Dehlin [00:43:17] Was he white?
Joe Ngatia [00:43:18] He was a white British. Okay, yeah. And so he was known for being very zealous. He was determined if anybody could summon the powers of heaven, was gonna be my companion. He knew his missionary discussion. This is the time we had the discussion. He had memorized them all. And when his presentation to investigators was like music. He was vastly knowledgeable, very charismatic guy, and so. But he was also pretty hard on his trainee. He said, you know, Elder, you need to memorize these things, know them like I know them. And so when you first come on a mission, this is an, you know, it was very hard. So the first area was difficult because I, I could see the gap of knowledge between who he was and who I was. And so that was a huge challenge for me. And of course, we did not have a vehicle. So you walked everywhere, Right? So we worked very hard, walked everywhere. And of course there are some things that, you know, and I'm sure you get into that there are some things that emerged from that experience because for the first time I was introduced to other aspects of church history. I Did not know.
John Dehlin [00:44:33] On your mission?
Joe Ngatia [00:44:34] On my first. In my first area.
John Dehlin [00:44:36] Well, I was going to say you already told us that Mormons were generally viewed as satanic or of the devil.
Joe Ngatia [00:44:43] Right.
John Dehlin [00:44:44] So you're in your own country and now you're wearing the name tag and you're trying to talk to people about Jesus.
Joe Ngatia [00:44:49] Right.
John Dehlin [00:44:49] I would imagine there would just. And you're not white, although your companion is white.
Joe Ngatia [00:44:53] Right.
John Dehlin [00:44:54] So maybe having a white companion was helpful.
Joe Ngatia [00:44:56] It was semi helpful in some way. It opened some doors, and in some other way, you, of course, you're pretty conspicuous. You can, you know, you stand out. And the part our assignment was in, you know, part of our area was a huge shanty town. Like, you know, what you'd call ghetto in America, one of the biggest shanty town. So a lot of people, even though they believe you're the devil worshipper, they also have real material needs that they would have, you know, one of the. One of the most memorable experience in that area where there was an area where most people believed we were divorced. Every time we walked by there, people be yelling, Devil worshipers are walking by, you know, and this man comes out, he really wearing rags, and he approaches us and he says, well, I need to come over to my house. Of course you don't want to do that because obviously you're afraid of being robbed. You know, this is not a place you could just walk into people's house without knowing them. But he was very insistent and he grabbed my companion, pretty much tore him to his shack. And when you walk in there, there's a lady with two look like twins. And the first thing, he grabbed one of the kid and handed it to my companion. And he said, take that one and we'll take anything you give us. And at first it did not register in my head, but the connection came to me. These people believe we are devil wash, but who eat babies and we pay for them.
John Dehlin [00:46:36] Oh, my goodness.
Joe Ngatia [00:46:37] And so it shocked Mike.
John Dehlin [00:46:39] So he was basically in your mind selling you this baby so you could
Joe Ngatia [00:46:44] eat it so we can give him money. I mean, his agenda, of course, is he wanted a way out of his, you know, but he.
John Dehlin [00:46:51] But he probably believed that you would
Joe Ngatia [00:46:53] eat the baby, you would take the baby and do whatever we do to babies.
John Dehlin [00:46:56] But he was that desperate.
Joe Ngatia [00:46:58] He was that desperate.
John Dehlin [00:46:59] Wow.
Joe Ngatia [00:47:00] And so it is. It was horrifying.
John Dehlin [00:47:02] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [00:47:04] And I. Wow. It was very unsettling, you know, that, you know, someday can be in that kind of mindset where you're willing to sacrifice your kid. You know, and. And so that was an experience.
John Dehlin [00:47:20] What is. Yeah. What did you do?
Joe Ngatia [00:47:22] Well, my companion, you know, being, you know, he, you know, of course he said, oh, that's a beautiful child. And he just kept complimenting the baby. And I, he didn't get it. You know, I didn't get it initially, like. So he's like, yeah. I kept saying, tick, tick, you know, he. And I'm like, and finally we said, we cannot have your baby.
John Dehlin [00:47:41] We.
Joe Ngatia [00:47:42] We don't have a place to take care baby. You know, we live in an apartment,
John Dehlin [00:47:46] you know, enough money to pay you.
Joe Ngatia [00:47:49] And so he says, so we wouldn't have the baby. So eventually we hand the baby back and we get out of there, you know, and that was very, you know, it was one of those memorable experiences in a negative way.
John Dehlin [00:48:03] Yeah. And. And growing up in Kenya, you had not experienced that level of poverty. So you were.
Joe Ngatia [00:48:08] I grew up in the village. You know, village people are not destitute. They may have very little, but we live off the land. We had plenty in our land to eat. You know, we grow corn, we grow potatoes. We. People don't go hungry in the countryside. But city poverty in shantytown, it's difficult because it's a dead ended. You know, they don't have any way they can farm. You know, it's grinding poverty.
John Dehlin [00:48:31] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [00:48:32] Yeah. So that's. I've. I had never been in that position, you know, and so. So that was an experience to remember.
John Dehlin [00:48:42] Yeah. Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [00:48:44] Wow. Okay.
John Dehlin [00:48:45] And then. Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [00:48:46] And then the other memorable experience in my first area, there was a. A guy who was like a teacher in high school, one of those prestigious high school. And he had joined the church and eventually he left. He was very vocal. He was very. One of those internationally unsettled people. I know every time we went there, he'll, you know, he would be. His job was to challenge mostly the white companion. He did not expect me to know enough. And he was right. I didn't know enough about the church. And I remember one time and I didn't know what he was talking about, he said, tell me something about the Salamander letter. Oh, and. And Kimball. And I'm like, how do you know what that. I'm like, what is that? And my companion knew something because he turned crimson red on his face. And he start. And so I said, what was that all about? He said, well, you don't have to bother yourself with such issues. You should first learn the basics before you to eat, you know, you know, drink milk before you try to Eat meat, like they say in the scriptures. And it will be years before I would see, I would know about Mark Hoffman, you know, and of course. But it kind of stayed with me. Simon. Delete. And back home, you don't have access to a lot of, you know, this is before widespread dissemination of the Internet and the, the research would come when I moved to America and I, I was, I was also perplexed.
John Dehlin [00:50:11] For those who don't know Mark Hoffman, we've covered it on Mormon stories. Mark Hoffman was a Mormon from Utah who forged a bunch of fake letters that were connected to early Mormon church history. And the Salamander letter was scandalous because it alleged that, I don't know, in an early version of Joseph Smith's history, Moroni, I guess, appeared as a white salamander. And it was a forgery. It was also created to embarrass the church. But also the church tried to buy up the Salamander letter and hide it. And so it's a big scandal. Check out Mark Hoffman. He ended up killing people. So we have episodes on it. We'll include links to that in the show notes. But in your story, that stuck in your mind as, like a question.
Joe Ngatia [00:50:59] Yes, because it was his reaction is what made it important to me.
John Dehlin [00:51:03] Me. Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [00:51:04] If he had, say, well, it's nothing, you know, but he reacted. It was a visceral reaction. He turned, you know, like. Like what was horror about.
John Dehlin [00:51:12] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [00:51:13] And he said, never mind, you know, should first learn to drink milk before you can eat meat. Okay, okay, I'll someday eat meat.
John Dehlin [00:51:21] So that wasn't the answer you were looking for.
Joe Ngatia [00:51:22] That's. No. You know, I've always been curious. So if you tell me no, I'll go look. Yes.
John Dehlin [00:51:28] So how was the rest of your mission? You did two years.
Joe Ngatia [00:51:32] I did, yeah. It was two years I had, you know, and then of course, after that first area I went to, I had some other memorable experience. So after that area, I was transferred to the Rift Vari province of Kenya, and that's six hours away from the capital. And so my companion was a white South African guy. And very early on in my second area, you know, I was, you know, we were teaching this investigating couple, right. And we actually had to meet the wife in the hospital because she was sick. She had had a miscarriage. And so we were meeting her at the hospital, you know, and. And it's horrifying when you go to, you know, some of these public hospitals in Kenya, like you have multiple people piled in the same bed, strangers. They don't know each other. They share a bed in the hospital because there's no bad spaces, right? And so we meet her in this environment, and then the next time I see her, she's back in her apartment where she lived. And her husband is happy that she's home, but she was still pretty sick. And so my companion says, you know, this Sunday, we're gonna fast, and we're gonna come back and give our blessing of healing. And so I was so happy about that. So we went to fast. We fasted for 24 hours. Found their sister. She was still very sick. When he found out, she crawled out of bed. We lay our hands on her. He performed the blessing, part of healing, and he gave her the blessing that she would be healed. And it was one of the most beautiful experiences I had as a missionary. And I remember on our drive home, we just were bathing in the glory and the beauty of that experience. And so. And so we went home, and, you know, the next morning, on our way to our chores, we decided to stop by, you know, at least to, you know, to see the miracle that had happened, you know, into the sister. And upon opening the gate, we were met by a very angry man. The husband, she was. He was irate, and he was accusatory. He said, why did you have to do this? Why did you have to kill her? She had died soon after we gave her the blessing. And so she died.
John Dehlin [00:54:00] Not only was she not healed, but
Joe Ngatia [00:54:02] she died that same night before morning, she was dead.
John Dehlin [00:54:06] And he was blaming y' all for the death.
Joe Ngatia [00:54:07] He was very upset.
John Dehlin [00:54:09] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [00:54:09] And so I remember. So we. When we finally extricated ourselves from that situation, we went to that van, and my companion was very upset. He said, I promise these people that she'll be healed. And I lied to them. And you could see the seeds of doubt in his own head. Sick. I felt a certain way. I don't know I can trust that feeling.
John Dehlin [00:54:33] Mm.
Joe Ngatia [00:54:34] And so this gradually, you get to realize feelings could not be fully trusted, because I had the same feeling about heart being healed. I had no doubt how to walk, but if I had found our walk standing on her head, I would have beat. Yeah. This is the miracle expected. She's how Vega has come back. Instead, we find, yeah, she's dead.
John Dehlin [00:54:55] I remember this. I. I believe. I believe. Yes. You know, you're just like, it's. It's gonna happen. I believe it. Yes.
Joe Ngatia [00:55:02] And you have that feeling to go with it. It's not necessarily like. It's not just a mental thing. I honestly Believed she will be healed. And then the fact that she was dead before dawn. Yeah. And so that was also an experience to remember. So. And finally how we. I got out of that area and I don't know how much time you have for this. I don't want to keep. Yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin [00:55:28] So.
Joe Ngatia [00:55:29] So my companion was transferred and he became the assistant to the mission president after that. And then my new companion, he was a Kenyan. He, you know, he became, you know, my companion was also the. The branch president, like, because this is a small, remote place. And so my new companion came over. He was much more experienced. He was further down the road on his mission. He became the mission president. And weeks into this, I suppose one of the members sent a letter to Nairobi, said the new missionaries here, they are not very good. My new companion was accused of seducing young women in his role as a branch president. And so there were things that were happening that they were not very pleased. Obviously, I did not know how much of, you know, obviously when you have a private meeting, I was not privy to this because whenever he went meet and do the interviews, I was never into that space. So I did not know whether that was true or not. But it was not beyond belief he was capable. So the mission, the assistant to the mission president, they just secretly came one day to see. To see what we were doing. And unfortunately they came on a day when you were now working hard. So they found us at the apartment. There were two companionship. There was an American, one American that had a work permit. He was almost at the end of his mission. And then there was myself, my companion, and another Kenyan. And so when the mission, the. My former companion, now as the assistant to the mission president, walks in and say, eldis, this is so disappointing. Here you are, you're supposed to be prose riding is the American making a cake and you guys are just goofing around. And I think my. The American companion was insulted that this South African could talk to him, so he punched him in the gut.
John Dehlin [00:57:25] What? Yes.
Joe Ngatia [00:57:27] And of course, now you have to see, it's important to see, like the American boy is probably 5 foot 7, 5 foot 6. You know, the South African is 6 foot 2. He's a big boy. And so when he got punched and I think he forgot about the gospel. And so it became a physical fight.
John Dehlin [00:57:47] Was a South African white or he was a white?
Joe Ngatia [00:57:49] Yeah. So white South African and a white
John Dehlin [00:57:51] American punches tall South African African in the stomach.
Joe Ngatia [00:57:55] And immediately the South African unleashes a beating on this American boy. And Beat him badly.
John Dehlin [00:58:04] Oh, wow.
Joe Ngatia [00:58:05] And then his companion, for he was a big Kenyan guy, he separates them. And when the American is set free, the next thing he goes about being. Breaks the windows everywhere.
John Dehlin [00:58:18] Whoa.
Joe Ngatia [00:58:19] He is berserk. And he is like yelling profanity in the most fluent way. I had never heard some of these words. And so then he was. Are looking over the fence, what's going on here? And this guy became a cyclone breaking everything. So, of course, within a few days, the mission president came down. He met with each one of us to express his displeasure. We were all transferred out of there. I was sent to Nairobi. He made me the zone leader. I mean, the district leader was before the zone leader. I was sent to Nairobi, became a zone lead, a district leader. The others were dispersed all over the city. And from that time I was in this readership role to the point that by the end, towards the end of my first year of mission, I was back with my British companion because he was about to go home being trained to be the new assistant to the mission practice. Oh, wow. And so he was training me. And when he left, that would be my calling, the rest of my mission. So.
Serving as Assistant to the Mission President
John Dehlin [00:59:23] So for the second half of your mission, you were assistant to the president?
Joe Ngatia [00:59:26] Yeah, the whole.
John Dehlin [00:59:27] Oh, wow.
Joe Ngatia [00:59:27] Yeah. So I was there and it was an honor because it kind of puts you in a place where you're being challenged constantly. And in that role, I got to see a certain aspect of the church that you wouldn't see. Like, I was working in the mission, you know, the church headquarters was also the mission office. So I got to see these people, some of the people I respected enormously in action and some of the. You know, I remember overhearing a conversation between. There was an American general who came to Kenya to be. He was a missionary couple. And he was in an argument with. He was making the arrangement for missionaries apartment all over the city. And he was in an argument with the landlord on the phone. And it's for the first time I heard the word nigger being used. Oh, oh, yes. And he said. And his wife got up. She was very upset when he said that. And she just looked at him and shook her head and very quickly, yeah, you know, his wife was a sweet lady. And, you know, he was a missionary. He was an order like a senior
John Dehlin [01:00:34] missionary from the United States. From United States, using the N word.
Joe Ngatia [01:00:38] Yes. To the landlord on the phone, who is a local cave. And he said, I think they were in an argument. And he called him the N word.
John Dehlin [01:00:47] Dang.
Joe Ngatia [01:00:48] And that's not common in Africa, people, you know, at least when I was growing up, that's not a word you hear, you know, But I knew I had watch enough movies to know that was not a place you went, you know. And he apologized later. He said, I'm sorry, I lost my temper. And, you know, but it was, you know.
John Dehlin [01:01:07] Well, he said that in front of you. You heard.
Joe Ngatia [01:01:10] I was in that mission office. His office is there. I'm sitting here. His wife is over there. She walks over, give my mean look, therefore using that language. And so. And of course, there was the guy who ordained me to the magnetic priesthood, was the Cesar director in Nairobi, and he turned out to be a terrible corrupt person. He's a local Kenyan guy, and he would just come to the office in the morning, disappear all day. He ended up being excommunicated years later for, you know, corruption and all that kind of practices. So you, you. I was in this space where I could watch church in action and sometimes not in very flattering ways, you know. And so there are two other events that happened before my mission was over. One of them, of course, as you know, I was. I believed we needed to work hard. I had a very passionate belief that this was the honorary church. And so I pushed the missionaries pretty hard. You know, I was his own. You know, I was the assistant to the mission president. I was insistent you have to place the Book of Mormon. And I felt comparable in an event that happened, like the sisters went and stayed out too late and two of them were raped.
John Dehlin [01:02:26] Oh, no.
Joe Ngatia [01:02:27] So I had to go pick him up and take him to the mission home.
John Dehlin [01:02:30] Oh, no.
Joe Ngatia [01:02:31] And so I remember thinking, you know, I push him to do this now. You know, you feel responsible for things like that. And you're young and, you know, I did not know how to process that very well.
John Dehlin [01:02:49] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:02:49] And so that was difficult.
John Dehlin [01:02:51] You. You weren't involved in them staying out late, were you?
Joe Ngatia [01:02:54] Well, I was. You know, as the assistant admission president, you are there pushing, insisting, you need to go there, work hard. Of course there's a road, you need to go home. But in some way, you feel if you push them this far to do these things, you know, and there's always a way of a human being to take the blame for things like that, you know.
John Dehlin [01:03:17] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:03:18] And so. So that was an event that was very uncomfortable.
John Dehlin [01:03:23] You know, I mean, we've covered that on Mormon stories before. Like, sometimes Mormon missions aren't safe. Like, I know people in Brazil who had guns pulled on them. I. In my mission, there were carjackings where people would literally stand at the car. This happened to the mission president, his wife, I think, multiple times, where they stick the gun in the car and say, get out, and they drive away with the car. Like, it sounds like. Was. Is it fair to say that. That sometimes the conditions weren't safe?
Joe Ngatia [01:03:54] Oh, yeah, absolutely. You have to know which areas to avoid and. And you have to use the best judgment. And. But, you know, but there's also this. People are incentivized to do certain things. You know, the system incentivizes people who baptize the most number of people, the people who teach the highest number of discussion. And so you can see how a young person, you know, would have gone beyond what was reasonably safe, you know, but safety was a big thing, you know, on my mission, especially in Nairobi.
John Dehlin [01:04:29] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [01:04:30] Especially if you stood out, like, if you're a foreigner, that was even a bigger deal.
John Dehlin [01:04:34] Okay. So, yeah, that would be really hard as an assistant to the president.
Joe Ngatia [01:04:38] Right.
John Dehlin [01:04:39] To feel like you had a part maybe, in not pressuring, but encouraging the sister missionaries to work hard and then they ended up getting raped.
Joe Ngatia [01:04:48] Absolutely.
John Dehlin [01:04:49] So, sorry.
Joe Ngatia [01:04:50] Yeah, that is. That was difficult. And so. But finally, you know, my mission ended and they ended, I would say, on a relatively good note. That's when Gordon B. Hinckley decided, you know, visited Kenya. Oh, yes.
President Hinckley Visits Kenya
John Dehlin [01:05:08] What year was that about?
Joe Ngatia [01:05:09] That was in 1998.
John Dehlin [01:05:11] 98. Was that a big deal?
Joe Ngatia [01:05:12] It was a big deal. Everybody wanted to see. You can imagine. You've been taught there is a person who carries the mantle of Moses, you know, and this person communicates with God directly, and he's coming to your city, you know, and so everybody. People took buses from across the country to come see him. And the church rented a big auditorium in one of the major hotels in Nairobi. And that's why everybody, you know, gathered to see him. And the only downside to it was he did not come greet people's hands. It was the danger of tropical diseases. You have to stay away from the crowds. And so that was. But having him in our presence, I felt really awesome, you know, and so we love.
John Dehlin [01:06:09] I remember that. I remember when the prophet came to Houston, it was just such a big deal growing up.
Joe Ngatia [01:06:15] Yeah, I can imagine. Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:06:16] And you felt. What did you feel when you saw President Kimball Hinckley? Sorry, he.
Joe Ngatia [01:06:24] I felt, you know, it was a unique, you know, opportunity to see a living prophet. You know, I felt, you know, here we, you know, we were not insignificant, you know, little dot on a map, you know, he the fact that he would take this trip and he was an elderly man, obviously the inconveniences of travel at his age.
John Dehlin [01:06:44] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:06:44] And so it was really, it was special to most people that he, you know, he would take the trip.
John Dehlin [01:06:49] Was it national news, do you think, in Kenya, Mormon prophet comes to Kenya or not?
Joe Ngatia [01:06:55] It would have made the news, but not as it would in Utah, in desert. News would make a bigger deal of it.
John Dehlin [01:07:02] But it have strengthened your testimony, like reading the Book of Mormon did something similar or not.
Joe Ngatia [01:07:08] I don't remember it being. Because at that age, of course, towards the mission, you're looking for something substantial, like you want him to say something. Yeah, I don't remember him saying anything particularly poignant. But is this presence really?
John Dehlin [01:07:31] Yeah, it makes total sense.
Joe Ngatia [01:07:32] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:07:33] Well, that's powerful, that's exciting. And yeah, to serve as AP for a year, that's a big deal.
Joe Ngatia [01:07:39] I don't think they had a choice. They had to keep me.
John Dehlin [01:07:44] What do you mean by that?
Joe Ngatia [01:07:46] Well, I, I, Part of the issue was the fact that most, you know, like now the Americans had been kicked out. Right. And so I was one of the few people who could drive a car. And this huge mission, they needed somebody who could drive a car.
John Dehlin [01:08:02] Well, you mentioned there were some. Okay, I was going to ask. You said there was someone from the UK who had a work permit. Was that deceptive? Like, how does a missionary get a work permit if they're not really working?
Joe Ngatia [01:08:14] Well, people from the British Commonwealth could stay.
John Dehlin [01:08:16] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [01:08:16] So, so South African British could stay.
John Dehlin [01:08:19] So they called it a work permit. Even though he was a missionary, they could stay.
Joe Ngatia [01:08:23] Yeah. I, I don't know though how they, you know, the specific, how they process that, you know, but there was a few Americans who stayed. I think they, I suppose it was a, whether it's a visitor visa because you can get like a six month, you know, if somebody was about to go home and they had a, a visitor permit for six months, they could stay. So the South African and the British, they could generally stay any other time because they come from the British Commonwealth.
John Dehlin [01:08:51] So I'm looking at, I'm looking up the history a little bit of, of President Hinckley's visit to Kenya. It was in February 1998. Yes. And it says that he made a prophecy which I think many people. It says that he visited Ghana, a Ghana temple site.
Joe Ngatia [01:09:12] Yeah. He went to several countries. Yes.
John Dehlin [01:09:14] Yeah. And he visited Kenya and Nigeria and that Elder Holland came with him.
Joe Ngatia [01:09:19] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:09:20] Do you remember Holland?
Joe Ngatia [01:09:21] Yeah, the Holland was, you know, that was not his first visit to Kenya. He had been there previously.
John Dehlin [01:09:27] And then it said that. I think it says the President Hinckley prophesied, quote, the time will come when we will have many temples across this continent.
Joe Ngatia [01:09:38] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:09:39] You. You faithful saints here in Kenya will not always have to travel such long distances to worship in the temple.
Joe Ngatia [01:09:46] Well, part of that is maybe coming true because finally they are building a temple in Kenya. I think they just opened this year.
John Dehlin [01:09:54] Yeah, yeah. It says. It says it was announced in 2017 by Thomas S. Monson that there'd be a temple in Kenya.
Joe Ngatia [01:10:02] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:10:03] But you're saying they just finished it?
Joe Ngatia [01:10:04] They just. I think. I'm not even sure it's open because this year they were doing the open house, I think.
John Dehlin [01:10:11] Okay. The groundbreaking ceremony was in. Okay. Yeah. 2021. And the public open house took place in from April to May of 2025.
Joe Ngatia [01:10:23] Yeah. This year. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:10:25] And it was dedicated May of this year by Suarez. Okay.
Joe Ngatia [01:10:28] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:10:29] All right. So any other stories from your mission that were really foundational for you?
Joe Ngatia [01:10:34] I think that that will probably. Yeah, That's. Those are the main ones I can remember.
John Dehlin [01:10:39] Did you meet any sister missionaries you liked?
Joe Ngatia [01:10:44] Not so much.
John Dehlin [01:10:44] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [01:10:45] Yes. They didn't have a lot of sisters on my mission. Oh, yeah. I probably had that problem. Probably A maximum of 6 at any given. 6 to 8 at any given time.
John Dehlin [01:10:54] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [01:10:54] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:10:56] Okay. So what happened after your mission?
Moving to America After the Mission
Joe Ngatia [01:10:59] So after my mission, of course, I had decided my sister had already moved to the United Kingdom. It was already here in the U.S. she came here in probably 96, 97, when I was still missionary.
John Dehlin [01:11:11] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [01:11:11] And so I wanted, you know, I was going to come to the US to pursue further education. And so you hadn't gone to college yet, right? No, I hadn't gone to college. And so I needed to go to college now I was done with school.
John Dehlin [01:11:25] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:11:26] And so my mom applied to Rick's college for me.
John Dehlin [01:11:29] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [01:11:29] And so I was accepted. And that's now called BYU Idaho.
John Dehlin [01:11:33] It's in Rexburg, Idaho.
Joe Ngatia [01:11:35] Right. So this is. No, this is before it was. And so. But applying and being accepted to college unites is only half the battle. The biggest problem, there are two, of course, the funding, and secondly, getting a visa from the United States government to go from your country to. To United States.
John Dehlin [01:11:54] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:11:54] So. So the first time I went to the American Embassy to get my visa, and I thought, you know, why not? I should easily get a visa. It should be easy. So I show up and, you know, I showed up at Six o' clock in the morning. And I was surprised. The line for the visa had gone around the whole block. And so I stood in line. And then, of course, four hours later, the security guard came and cut the line in front of me. Say the rest of you, you come back another time. So pretty much you had to show up there at 4 o' clock in the morning. You're gonna get in?
John Dehlin [01:12:31] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:12:31] And so the next morning, you know, I showed up at 4 o' clock in the morning. And so after standing in line for hours, I get into the building and. And I, you know, you kept looking. There are like four consular officers there, and you're trying to game the same stunt to see who is. Has a bigger smile, more likely to let you go to America. And I said, there was a gentleman there, and I thought, you know, I'm gonna walk, right guy. That guy looked like a guy who would be very generous to me. He was a big African American guy. And I went to his window, looked at my papers. Within maybe 30 seconds, he said, well, you look like you have good grades. Why don't you go to school here? I said, well, there's only one medical school in this country. I want to be a doctor. I did not make the grade. You have to have straight A's to go to medical school at that time, to go to medical school in Kenya. I didn't have straight A's. And he said, well, what did he ask? Did they ask you to study? I said, they. I was invited to study political science. He said, well, then you need to go study political science. You're not going to America. And he just did not meet a visa.
John Dehlin [01:13:39] Oh, no.
Joe Ngatia [01:13:40] I asked, now what? And so he. So I stood there and argued with him a little bit. He said, okay, if you don't agree with my decision, here's some papers you can file. You know, like, you can ask for a redo, you know, somebody else can look at your case. And I took the papers and I knew I was gonna. I was gonna do this. I went to my former mission president, I went to his office, I told him what had happened. He said he would write me a letter of recommendation and hopefully that'll make the difference. And so, long story short, it took several visits to the embassy before finally this lady approved my visa to come to America.
John Dehlin [01:14:23] Okay?
Joe Ngatia [01:14:24] And so. But it's important to know that as I was going back and forth to this embassy, there were other people going back and forth to that same embassy. Because within a few days after I got my visa, the embassy was blown up by Al Qaeda.
John Dehlin [01:14:40] Oh.
Joe Ngatia [01:14:41] And there were hundreds people died in that same building.
John Dehlin [01:14:45] Oh, no.
Joe Ngatia [01:14:46] Including the people, the consular officers who are there who. You know, the American died even in the embassy building himself. They died.
John Dehlin [01:14:54] Oh, no. And so this is before 9, 11.
Joe Ngatia [01:14:57] This is before then, the embassy bombing. The 1998 embassy bombing of the American Embassy.
John Dehlin [01:15:03] So that was the embassy you were getting.
Joe Ngatia [01:15:04] Yes, that's the same building I was.
John Dehlin [01:15:06] Oh, my God. In and out of how many weeks or months after?
Joe Ngatia [01:15:11] Within days. Within days that was blown up.
John Dehlin [01:15:14] Wow.
Joe Ngatia [01:15:15] And so I escaped with my life. This scenario, you know, probably the people
John Dehlin [01:15:20] you worked with died.
Joe Ngatia [01:15:22] Absolutely. Yeah. The consulate died. And, you know, a lot of those people died. And it. The bombing was so. It was such a strong blast. It brought down a huge motor of a building.
John Dehlin [01:15:35] Wow.
Joe Ngatia [01:15:36] And so it was a big deal. And so that. That happened the day before I was flying out of Kenya to come to America.
John Dehlin [01:15:44] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [01:15:44] And so that was a big deal.
John Dehlin [01:15:47] Dang.
Joe Ngatia [01:15:48] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:15:48] So you probably felt like God spared your life.
Joe Ngatia [01:15:51] Absolutely.
John Dehlin [01:15:52] Preserved your life.
Joe Ngatia [01:15:52] Thought it was. Yeah. You know, it's. It was a confirmation in some way I had a purpose in life, you know, and so it was a very big disaster.
John Dehlin [01:16:05] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:16:06] And so I flew to America in August. You know, I flew to Boston. My sister was living in Boston at this time. And among the first people to greet me in Boston was a guy who had taught me to pass sacrament when I first joined the church.
John Dehlin [01:16:22] Oh, yeah, he was there.
Joe Ngatia [01:16:24] He was there. He had gone to Rex College. And so I was surprised to see him because he was chain smoking, and I'm like, what happened? He said, I went to Rick's college. I strongly discourage you from going there.
John Dehlin [01:16:37] What?
Joe Ngatia [01:16:38] I'm like, why, brother? This is Zion. He said, oh, no. And he told me, he warned me. He said, you're gonna be disappointed. The church in America is not the same as in Kenya.
John Dehlin [01:16:52] What?
Joe Ngatia [01:16:52] You will not feel welcome. Oh, you're gonna feel very isolated. I was so disheartened. He said, I was so disheartened, I left the church, and you can see who I am now, and I'll never go back there. And he said, joe, whatever you do, do not go to Idaho.
John Dehlin [01:17:09] Wow. I mean, if I'm thinking about it, I mean, Idaho is definitely one of the more conservative states in the United States. I've heard that one of the heads. One of the places for the head of white nationalism is in Coeur d', Alene, Idaho. Northern Idaho.
Joe Ngatia [01:17:31] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:17:32] And so we're talking the late 90s. Yeah. I could. And Mormons have their history with race. Right. So I could see there being maybe a lot of racism in. In Rexburg in the late 90s.
Joe Ngatia [01:17:44] And I did not fully, you know, because, you know, the Americans you met in Kenya, they were very welcoming and, you know, and I suppose he had gone with that expectation that he would meet the same sort of people. This would be a continuation of a sweet, warm, you know, party. And I think he could not make the transition from. This is a different social environment.
John Dehlin [01:18:04] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:18:06] And for him, he could not stand it. He left, you know, and. But I knew for me, there was no question. I had served a mission.
John Dehlin [01:18:14] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:18:15] I was going to Zion.
John Dehlin [01:18:16] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:18:17] And I. You know, I blamed him for it. I said, you are the smoke and you're drinking, so no wonder you're in this predicament.
John Dehlin [01:18:24] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:18:25] I was a staunch moment. I say, whatever the case, I will die. A moment. There's no question. I would not. I was not. You know, I said, I'm not gonna leave the church because somebody was being mean to me.
John Dehlin [01:18:37] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:18:37] You see, my relationship is with God.
John Dehlin [01:18:39] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:18:40] I believe this is the only true church. And I am going there, and I'm gonna get my temple endowment and all those things that we didn't have.
John Dehlin [01:18:47] And now, wait, did you say he had been your bishop or.
Joe Ngatia [01:18:50] No, he had been one of the boys. Yeah. Three years older than me.
John Dehlin [01:18:55] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [01:18:56] Yeah. And so he had. Tommy. He had joined the church ahead of me, and so he was teaching me how to pass sacrament. Yeah. And so there he was telling me, you know, you really don't want to do this. Don't do it. You're gonna regret it. You're gonna come back to Boston in a year, and you're gonna be way behind everybody else. Because, you see, the Kenyans in Boston were doing pretty well. Oh, they worked two or three jobs. They were making money, and that as a young person, having a comment a lot. And so he said, look, I don't have a car. All these other Kenyans, they're driving Mercedes and whatever, you know, and so you're gonna come back and I'll be in the same predicament as I am.
John Dehlin [01:19:33] Oh.
Joe Ngatia [01:19:34] And I did not pay much attention to that.
John Dehlin [01:19:37] Yeah. It's a challenge.
Joe Ngatia [01:19:38] It's like, I'm gonna. I'm doing this. And my sister said, joe, you know, listen to. You know, your friend told you, don't go.
John Dehlin [01:19:45] Wait. Was your sister active in the church this time?
Joe Ngatia [01:19:47] She had left the church.
John Dehlin [01:19:49] Oh, okay.
Joe Ngatia [01:19:49] She was less active. She Said, joe, I'm not sure, you know, I don't know what makes you think you're so special. You should not do it. You stay here. They are beautiful school, for goodness sake. Harvard is here.
John Dehlin [01:20:02] Mit Harvard.
Joe Ngatia [01:20:03] Yes, exactly. You know, she said, why do you have to go? Try fate. Just stay here.
John Dehlin [01:20:10] Boston College, like Boston. Rexburg, Idaho. Yeah, I can see. I can see.
Joe Ngatia [01:20:17] Yeah. So I said, look, Joyce, I am a woman. I am going to Zion. And finally, after so many arguments, she said, you know, she put me in a Greyhound bus from Boston to Rexburg. That's how I. I came to the American West.
John Dehlin [01:20:35] And how was Rexburg? How was boys? How was byu, Idaho, slash Rex Ricks, Rick's College.
Joe Ngatia [01:20:42] Yeah. So I arrived. I arrived in Idaho Falls late at night, you know, on a Greyhound bus. And it was the last bus of the day. And so, you know, they got my stuff off. And, you know, I. The guy at the center, you know, at the bus stop, he said, well, I said, is there a bus that goes to Rexburg? He said, no, this. Is there a taxi? We don't have taxis to go. So I'm in this place. And he helped me try to find a hotel so as I could go the next day. Oh, there were no hotels. So he said, I could drive you to Rexburg, but I can't. I have work in the morning. And fortunately, this guy shows up, these two teenagers. They say, oh, we're going back to Rexburg. You can hitch a ride with us.
John Dehlin [01:21:23] Wow.
Joe Ngatia [01:21:24] It was like miraculous. Yeah, they took my stuff, took. Drove me to Rexburg, got me into a motel across Ricks College. And I didn't have a place, I didn't have my classes registered. And it was already the first day of school. So the hotel person said, yeah, you can leave your stuff here, walk on campus, get your things sorted out and come back get it later. So I went to the administration building and I met Aladdin. I still remember her name was Sister Bonnie. She said, oh, my gosh, we didn't think you're coming. We didn't hear from you. Oh, so I need. We need to get things going for you. You already behind the curveball. So I said, well, so she started working. She caught some Kenyan students who already go to school there. Oh, there's a Kenyan boy, his name was Kennedy. He called him and he said he wouldn't answer his phone. He said, I think he might have graduated. So you need to go to Devotional. There was Devotional. I'd be, you know, go to Devotion and come Back afterwards. So I walk for the masters of the student to a devotional. And as I. At the end of the devotion, I was really lost.
John Dehlin [01:22:32] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:22:33] Inside the head and outside in the world. And as I walked out the devotional, I heard a voice, somebody say, elder Gatia. And I'm like, who is that? And there was this white boy. He was from. Bound for Utah. We had met once on his way home from his. From Ethiopia. He served his mission in Kenya. Kenyan Arab mission.
John Dehlin [01:22:54] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:22:55] And he remembered me.
John Dehlin [01:22:56] You must have been. You must have been memorable.
Joe Ngatia [01:22:59] I don't know. But he said, how are you staying? You know, my name is Eric. You know, we met in Nairobi and on my way home and. Total coincidence, I would not remember. And he said, well, one of our roommates did not show up. If you're looking for a place, it's the cheapest place you could find. There's $150 per semester or something. It's behind this little lady's house and you can come live with us.
John Dehlin [01:23:25] It's a miracle.
Joe Ngatia [01:23:26] I know. I told him my situation. He was thrilled. He said, don't worry. Let's go. I have a car. I'm going to get your things.
John Dehlin [01:23:33] Wow.
Joe Ngatia [01:23:33] I'll take you. And just like, miracle.
John Dehlin [01:23:36] That's the best of Mormonism right there. Right.
Joe Ngatia [01:23:38] I had no doubt facing was meant to be.
John Dehlin [01:23:41] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:23:42] Like, everything was working out so beautifully.
John Dehlin [01:23:44] Yeah. Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:23:45] That's how I settled in Rexburg.
John Dehlin [01:23:47] Wow.
Joe Ngatia [01:23:47] I had my buddy from my mission.
John Dehlin [01:23:49] Yeah. That's not what your bro. What your. I guess your friend from Boston.
Joe Ngatia [01:23:55] That's not what you told you.
John Dehlin [01:23:56] No experience.
Joe Ngatia [01:23:57] He told me. And it was like. My experiences were awesome. You know, I got there and I was surrounded by friends. People are very present, you know, and. And immediately, of course, I had work to do. I needed to get my patriarchal blessing. I needed to go my. Get my endowment.
John Dehlin [01:24:14] Oh, yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:24:15] You know, I needed. It was a lot of work for me to do, and that's what I set out to do. And I. And I remember when I met the stake president, he was this cowboy. He was an older man. He was probably in his 80s. And he stood out because. Yeah, this huge belt buckle and, you know, and. And he was very sweet to me. And we spent a good 30 minutes discussing my life before he gave me my Patrick blessing. And he asked me, what are you. What do you want to go study? What do you call, you know, all those things that you say in a biographical, you know, information. Unfortunately, you know, when he gave me the blessing, it Felt so real to me, you know, the Lord, you know, told me I would really succeed in becoming a doctor. I'll become a very important leader in the church, you know, and I'd remain faithful to the church to the very end. Oh, and I would find a sister in Zion, you know, and that was.
John Dehlin [01:25:13] That was all in your patriarchal bus.
Joe Ngatia [01:25:15] That was only my patriarchal process.
John Dehlin [01:25:16] So you'd remain faithful to the end.
Joe Ngatia [01:25:18] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:25:18] Find a sister to get married, and
Joe Ngatia [01:25:20] I'll succeed in becoming a doctor.
John Dehlin [01:25:21] Oh, you would become a doctor. Yes. That's good.
Joe Ngatia [01:25:23] Yeah. Because I had told him exactly what I. You know. You know, and. And so. And I held on to these promises because to me, there were echoes from God, you know, even when I've encountered huge obstacles on my path, I knew the stake president, you know, the patriarch, had told me what would happen. So in spite of the bumps on the road, I knew this thing was gonna happen, you know, so that was, you know, and it's got to be
John Dehlin [01:25:54] that if you're promised by what you believe is God that something's going to happen.
Joe Ngatia [01:26:00] Right.
John Dehlin [01:26:00] It's got to give you confidence that you can achieve it.
Joe Ngatia [01:26:04] Absolutely. Because, you know, there was no gap between my belief, you know, and what. You know, and. And. And what I was going to do, my effort.
John Dehlin [01:26:14] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:26:15] So you are promised something. So my failure would. I would have to blame my laziness. So the Lord has already told me I'll become this. And whatever it takes, I must become this. Because he has done his part. I have to do my part.
John Dehlin [01:26:29] Yeah. And if you have doubts, you're like, well, the God said it, so it's gonna happen. I. I'll keep believing.
Joe Ngatia [01:26:35] Absolutely.
John Dehlin [01:26:35] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:26:36] And I think that was the biggest. To me, it was that carrot. I knew I could do this.
John Dehlin [01:26:42] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:26:42] You know, and had been promised it would happen.
John Dehlin [01:26:45] Yeah. Okay.
Joe Ngatia [01:26:45] You know, and so. So that. And then, of course, going to the temple, you know, and so my roommate, my immediate roommate, was a guy from Pentatona, Oregon. He. He was a cowboy, and we hit it off. He was a guy from rural America. I'm from a village. And so he became my closest friend, and he offered to take me to be my guide to the temple. He had a pickup truck. We drove it to Idaho Falls, you know, and I received my. My endowment, you know.
John Dehlin [01:27:17] And how did you find the temple ceremony?
Joe Ngatia [01:27:20] I suppose after so many years, you know, I had joined the church in 1994, and this is 1998, and all the things you read in church magazines about the Temple. You expect this phenomenal experience. Right. You. In fact, I would be remiss if I did not say I expected that I would have more or less a physical meeting with God.
John Dehlin [01:27:45] Oh, you did.
Joe Ngatia [01:27:46] I really expected to have a divine experience. It was not going to be just a building like any earthly building.
John Dehlin [01:27:53] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:27:53] I really believe this was God's house and I would have a remarkable trend. So.
John Dehlin [01:27:58] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:27:59] In some ways because of the expectation is bound to disappoint a little bit.
John Dehlin [01:28:03] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:28:04] Because four years of building this momentum, nothing could fulfill that.
John Dehlin [01:28:10] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:28:11] You know, and so, but, you know,
John Dehlin [01:28:13] I had the same experience in Utah. Right. In Arizona.
Joe Ngatia [01:28:16] Right.
John Dehlin [01:28:16] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:28:17] Because your expectations cannot be matched by reality.
John Dehlin [01:28:21] You know, Jesus just isn't appearing to people in the temples as much as one would hope. Yes. Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:28:27] So. So that was a little disappointing.
John Dehlin [01:28:30] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:28:31] Yes. But, you know, and so I was happy to be. You know, that was probably the pinnacle of any moments experience. Right. Like going to the temple. Yeah. Like this is the crowning event of, you know, of your youth.
John Dehlin [01:28:47] Yeah. Okay. So you, you felt like it was a good experience.
Joe Ngatia [01:28:51] It was a little confusing, but it was on the basis of what it gave me. You know, I felt I had been received in a very. To a very special club.
John Dehlin [01:29:01] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:29:01] This is a part of it that feels like being inducted to a special society.
John Dehlin [01:29:08] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:29:08] Right. And so that in itself is a huge reward, you know, for whatever you had to put up with together.
John Dehlin [01:29:16] Sure.
Joe Ngatia [01:29:16] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:29:18] Okay. So you, so how was, how was Rick's overall?
Navigating Faith and Race at BYU
Joe Ngatia [01:29:23] Well, I settled to, you know, I think I had grown up in this. You know, I've always been academic, ambitious. And so I got into my pursuit. You know, I needed to get good grades, you know, and so the rest of Brics College could only be I honor. I remember it on the basis of what I was doing academically. But it also did offer a window, you know, like finally become socialized into the American society. Right. So I, I, you know, you tell people. And I became black in America. Finally I could see myself as a black person for the first time. Right.
John Dehlin [01:30:05] Okay. So. Okay. So, yeah, if you're. They say if the fish doesn't recognize the water swimming in. If you're black amongst a bunch of black people, you don't, like you said at the beginning, you don't even think about race.
Joe Ngatia [01:30:15] You don't think of race much in
John Dehlin [01:30:17] Africa, but if you're black and a black African in white. Rexburg, Idaho.
Joe Ngatia [01:30:22] Right. All of a sudden you interact with people and they interact with you differently than they would Interact with their neighbors naturally. Right. And so you realize you start perceiving yourself on the basis this difference. And so very quickly you start learning yourself in a. You know, you start viewing yourself from a different prism. Right. And so things that would not have been noticeable soon enough began to be noticed. Like all the mention of blackness in the Book of Mormon, which I would have ignored in Africa. Now this was me they were cursed with. Their skin of blackness was no longer an issue. That was. No. A detail you could ignore.
John Dehlin [01:31:12] Even though that was technically referring to Native Americans or Lamanites in the Book of Mormon.
Joe Ngatia [01:31:18] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:31:19] You still thought it might apply to you?
Joe Ngatia [01:31:21] Well, if there's no. You know, because nobody was ever cursed with a skin of whiteness, so.
John Dehlin [01:31:27] Right.
Joe Ngatia [01:31:28] So you'd have to obviously make this a necessary connection.
John Dehlin [01:31:33] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [01:31:33] The blackness in this theological context was always a demotion.
John Dehlin [01:31:38] I guess The Book of Mormon says that they were cursed with dark skin to make them loathsome. Yes. Ugly.
Joe Ngatia [01:31:46] Yes. Undesirable.
John Dehlin [01:31:48] Undesirable.
Joe Ngatia [01:31:49] And so no one would ever read that and say, oh, it's not about me.
John Dehlin [01:31:53] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:31:54] Unless you don't have a mirror. Yeah. And so a self reflective person would make the obvious connection.
John Dehlin [01:32:01] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:32:01] That there's no context in the Book of Mormon, in Mormon theology where people are punished with whiteness.
John Dehlin [01:32:07] Yes. So I've never thought of that before. It's so true.
Joe Ngatia [01:32:11] Yeah. And so you begin to see these things. And then of course, because human beings are human, you start having occasional bad experiences with race.
John Dehlin [01:32:22] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:32:22] Right. And so one of the things I was remembering, I remember this morning there was a guy from India. He was a dark skinned guy from India. And I remember one time he was coming Book a moment class is required at BYU and those kind of places. And I remember he was not Mormon and he came out of class and he was upset. We were kind of friendly. I cannot say we were friend, but we were friendly. He looked at me, do you believe that stuff? And I'd say, what happened? He said, you're an idiot. And I said, what? What did I do?
John Dehlin [01:32:51] You know. Wait, he called you an Indian guy?
Joe Ngatia [01:32:54] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:32:56] From South Asia.
Joe Ngatia [01:32:57] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:32:58] Called you an idiot.
Joe Ngatia [01:32:59] Yeah. He said, if you believe that, you're an idiot.
John Dehlin [01:33:01] Oh my goodness.
Joe Ngatia [01:33:02] And I said, what? And he told me about. He had read about. He had his. He had read about dark skin in the Book of Moment.
John Dehlin [01:33:09] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [01:33:09] And he probably had. He had raised a question to the teacher.
John Dehlin [01:33:13] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:33:13] And whatever had happened, I wasn't privy to it, but whatever had happened had made him pretty Upset.
John Dehlin [01:33:18] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:33:19] And I remember he, you know, he was not very pleased.
John Dehlin [01:33:23] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:33:23] And there's no way to escape this. You know, these. I knew about these things, and I was beginning to see them in a different light.
John Dehlin [01:33:31] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:33:32] And for the first time, I thought, you know, I need to deal with this issue.
John Dehlin [01:33:36] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:33:36] And, of course, remembering my home teaching companion from way back when, he had mentioned about the power of great price being really the very rich ground for you to understand this issue, you know.
John Dehlin [01:33:49] And this is the book of Moses and the book of Abraham.
Joe Ngatia [01:33:51] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:33:51] Is that right?
Joe Ngatia [01:33:51] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:33:52] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:33:52] And so guess what? I signed up to take Pearl Grape Price.
John Dehlin [01:33:56] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [01:33:56] The next semester.
John Dehlin [01:33:57] That's a class at byu.
Joe Ngatia [01:33:59] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:34:00] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:34:00] And I took it. And I knew that this teacher, you know, one of the professors, religion professors, he was one of the best teachers. I'd taken the origins of the world from him, you know, and he had his teaching style I loved. He challenged you intellectually. And he went way beyond the normal, be faithful. Do you know, he. He went. He made it an intellectual experience. And so I signed up for his class to learn more about this race theology. And of course, BYU often meant, you are the only black kid in the whole class, you know. And so I remember the day he came to those verses where Pharaoh is, you know, forbidden to have the priesthood and authority, although he claimed it on the basis of his lineage. There's that verse. And he read it in class, and he said, a lot of people have read this and say, this is the basis why black Africans were not permitted to have the priesthood. This is what he said. But he said, the reason black people are not allowed to have the priesthood are not fully understood.
John Dehlin [01:35:08] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:35:08] And. But this is not the reason. And he said, and suddenly, you know, most kids, most students at BYU and Rex, very respectful, but suddenly this was a moment of diverging, departing from respect. There was a lot of people yelling at the teacher, more or less, like there was an uproar. He said, well, you're contradicting the brethren. And some of them quoted Brigham Young, you know, say, you know, this really there is a curse. Like, because the professor had more or less suggested there was not a curse on Africans, you know, but he said, no, that's not what the brethren said. And after some back and forth with students, he pretty much, you know, backed off. I remember he. Before he backed off, you know, he said, joe, what do you think about this? Yeah. He said, joe, what. What do you think about this? And I think he wanted an ally in this because he probably wanted to Humanize the issue. This more or less. I can see him wanting to say, this is not just a theoretical question. There are people whose feelings you're hurting. One of them is sitting over there. Right.
John Dehlin [01:36:21] So he was basically empathizing with people of color, black people, maybe even saying that the brethren may have gotten this wrong,
Joe Ngatia [01:36:33] say they got it wrong. But he did say, you know, that. You know, he more or less saying, we don't know that story fully, but we should not make this conclusion. Okay. Africans are cursed.
John Dehlin [01:36:45] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [01:36:46] Right.
John Dehlin [01:36:46] He was saying, withhold judgment.
Joe Ngatia [01:36:47] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:36:48] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [01:36:49] But my classmates did not see it that way.
John Dehlin [01:36:53] What did they feel?
Joe Ngatia [01:36:54] Well, they made it very clear in no uncertain term that the curse of Cain is real. Was real.
John Dehlin [01:37:01] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:37:01] And black people were the inheritors of that curse. And there was no doubt in their mind, you know, and it hurts your feeling. And I remember when he asked Joe, what do you think? And I really. I sheepishly. I remember, I said, I'm gonna withhold my comments.
John Dehlin [01:37:17] Oh, wow.
Joe Ngatia [01:37:17] That's what I said.
John Dehlin [01:37:18] You didn't feel safe? Probably.
Joe Ngatia [01:37:20] I did not feel safe. And I was more or less a shy kid when I was, you know, I new to our country. I sound different from everybody else. I was the only black kid, you know. So I say I withhold my comment, you know, but there was no doubt in my mind on that day. My journey out of the church started really.
John Dehlin [01:37:39] It really did start. Why?
Joe Ngatia [01:37:41] I felt there was no fellowship between me and these. The people I was sitting next to.
John Dehlin [01:37:47] Oh.
Joe Ngatia [01:37:48] I had respect for myself, and I felt they did not respect me. I felt they saw me as an inferior breed of humans and that the only reason I was there is that God had changed his mind on some issues. Ready. And that could never be fully rise to their level. I could never fall. You know, there was always gonna be a sudden gap.
John Dehlin [01:38:11] Oh.
Joe Ngatia [01:38:12] You know, and I guess you would
John Dehlin [01:38:14] have felt like your friend in Boston told you you were gonna feel that. Might have been the first time you really felt that way.
Joe Ngatia [01:38:19] Maybe. Yeah. I think in Rexburg, that's the first, most painful experience, you know, of the nature that he was describing.
John Dehlin [01:38:27] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:38:28] You know.
John Dehlin [01:38:28] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:38:28] And I knew somehow, and I hate to say this, I, I, you know, the mention of Brigham Young in that context, you know, it made me not like him too much. Right. You know, I think that was a person whose name was invoked in that discussion more than anyone else. Yeah. And they sent me on a path and a trajectory where I needed to get to the bottom of the issue. You know, from that time I feel I was always researching, you know, I was not going to depend on people. I was gonna find out as much as I could on the topic. And unfortunately, the more I found, the less I was happy that it was not faith promoting information. And not necessarily. I was not reading anti Mormon literature. I was reading directly from the words of people. I. Brigham Young, you know that discourses of Brigham Young.
John Dehlin [01:39:23] So you started reading those things.
Joe Ngatia [01:39:26] Yes, I started looking at those things. And I needed to know. I needed to know what the brethren said. I did not want to get a commentary from some other person, you know.
John Dehlin [01:39:37] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:39:37] And so, you know, it wasn't faith promoted to say.
John Dehlin [01:39:43] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:39:43] I felt Brigham Young undoubtedly did not have much respect for Africans, to put it mildly. To put it mildly.
John Dehlin [01:39:54] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:39:54] I felt that he did not contemplate a world here or afterwards in which would be the equivalent of an African.
John Dehlin [01:40:03] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:40:04] And so. And I did not feel I wasn't raised in a way that I could accept that. And I knew whatever. That whatever cost to me that was untenable. You know, I knew that to me, to me, I could trace my first step out of church to that day.
John Dehlin [01:40:24] It wasn't that you said, I'm out of here. I'm quitting the church. I'm leaving, I've lost my testimony. It's more like it became an item on the shelf, as we say, or something else. How would you describe it?
Joe Ngatia [01:40:36] I think in some way I started, you know, I start trying the first thing you do. Because I had had experiences that helped me to certain aspects of the church. I always felt that they're burning in the bosom meant something.
John Dehlin [01:40:53] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:40:53] And so I was stuck in this world in which I lived with contradictions. Right. And I tried to make an accommodation of some. Some sort of equilibrium in which you can loathe the messenger.
John Dehlin [01:41:06] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:41:06] And love certain aspect of the message.
John Dehlin [01:41:08] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:41:10] And of course, we know how that works. Eventually one side will win.
John Dehlin [01:41:13] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:41:13] You know.
John Dehlin [01:41:14] Yeah. Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:41:14] And so I lived with this contradiction. And I knew that I detested Brigham Young, for example.
John Dehlin [01:41:20] Oh.
Joe Ngatia [01:41:20] And. And I tried.
John Dehlin [01:41:23] And your school was named after him.
Joe Ngatia [01:41:24] Yeah, eventually. That is. Yes.
John Dehlin [01:41:26] Was it changed to BYU Idaho while
Joe Ngatia [01:41:28] you were there or the year after I left? Gift.
John Dehlin [01:41:30] Oh, my gosh. So like.
Joe Ngatia [01:41:32] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:41:32] That's adding insult to injury. Exactly. And name your alma mater after the guy you didn't like.
Joe Ngatia [01:41:39] Yes. And actually. And I had to go to byu being a foreign student, you really don't have many choices because as far as the cost of going to school.
John Dehlin [01:41:47] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:41:48] Meant like More or less. I had to go to byu.
John Dehlin [01:41:51] BYU Provo or BYU Provo.
Joe Ngatia [01:41:53] After Rex, I went to BYU Pro
John Dehlin [01:41:55] because Bricks was a two year, three year school.
Joe Ngatia [01:41:58] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:41:59] Okay, so you ended up going to Brigham Young University.
Joe Ngatia [01:42:02] I did apply to University of Utah and byu. Right. But the cost of going to University of Utah being a foreign student was gonna be twice as much as byu. I couldn't afford that.
John Dehlin [01:42:14] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:42:15] And so I knew. And I was afraid I would. When I went to byu. I was afraid I would be put in a situation where I'd have to confess my true feeling about Brigham Young.
John Dehlin [01:42:25] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:42:25] And there was always a fear in me.
John Dehlin [01:42:27] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:42:27] You know.
John Dehlin [01:42:28] Of course.
Joe Ngatia [01:42:29] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:42:29] So. And. And just to distinguish, you said that in your second year of membership, you learned about the priesthood band.
Joe Ngatia [01:42:36] Exactly.
John Dehlin [01:42:37] But I guess what you're saying is Brigham Young's teachings are way worse, were way worse to you than the priesthood ban was. Can you. I mean, it's probably obvious, but can you explain why Brigham Young's teachings were too. Too much, but the priesthood band was a little bit more acceptable. Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:42:59] And when. When brother. The brother who was a professor back home, when he went through, he appealed to ancient, you know, scriptures, the book of, you know, the progress price.
John Dehlin [01:43:12] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:43:13] So there was a distance there.
John Dehlin [01:43:15] Right.
Joe Ngatia [01:43:16] And it was not as personal in that context.
John Dehlin [01:43:20] Because it's talking about thousands of years of age.
Joe Ngatia [01:43:23] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:43:24] It's in the voice of Jesus or God.
Joe Ngatia [01:43:26] Exactly.
John Dehlin [01:43:27] It's kind of. There's a curse of, you know, whatever. And it's talking about ham and it's talking about Noah. Yes. Egyptus. And it doesn't feel current. I'm guessing it doesn't feel current. It doesn't. It feel. It's. It's shrouded in scriptural language, in King James, English. I don't know, I'm just guessing.
Joe Ngatia [01:43:47] And they felt remote and removed from you, but Brigham Young says the Negro. Okay.
John Dehlin [01:43:54] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:43:55] It's a very current. It's almost your contemporary in the grand scheme of things. This is someday within, you know, a few, you know, years from your birth. He's talking about issues that are relevant to this day.
John Dehlin [01:44:09] Do you remember any of his quotes that stuck in your mind?
Joe Ngatia [01:44:12] I remember the one thing I remember the most, and I think part of the reason I remember this because it was a 60 minute interview with, I think, Wallace. Yeah. Where Wallace says, you know, Brigham Young says the black man is, you know, the African is cursed with a black skin and a flat nose.
John Dehlin [01:44:31] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:44:32] You know, so that in itself is so. Sounds so prejudice. Right. And I remember the other thing. I remember him talking about them. Any white person who marries from that race deserve to be put to death.
John Dehlin [01:44:47] Yeah. You know, Brigham Young said that.
Joe Ngatia [01:44:49] Yes. And I remember reading this thing. I'm like, only a truly hateful person could say such things.
John Dehlin [01:44:55] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:44:56] And so this is far removed from, you know, the story of Pharaoh here, you know, as you sign, as you find in the book of Abraham and such places.
John Dehlin [01:45:05] And I. I remember learning about the journal Discourses probably when I was at byu.
Joe Ngatia [01:45:11] Right.
John Dehlin [01:45:11] And I'm going through there. I think Brigham Young has some quote about, like, if you find a black person, a white person having sex, you stick a javelin. Yes. Or something like that.
Joe Ngatia [01:45:23] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:45:24] Yeah. Like the only.
Joe Ngatia [01:45:25] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:45:25] The only forgiveness is death on the spot or something like that.
Joe Ngatia [01:45:29] Right, exactly.
John Dehlin [01:45:30] So I remember learning that as a white kid from Texas. Yes. I was disgusted.
Joe Ngatia [01:45:35] It is horrifying. This is a stuff you'd hear from the grand wizard of Ku Klux Khan, right? Yes. Not from a prophet, the mouthpiece of
John Dehlin [01:45:44] God that your university is named after.
Joe Ngatia [01:45:46] Exactly.
John Dehlin [01:45:47] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:45:47] So it was somehow terrifying that I would have a picture of this man hang on my wall as oracles of
John Dehlin [01:45:54] God or statue of him at the center of the university.
Joe Ngatia [01:45:58] Exactly. And so it was, in some ways you lived with this very deep visceral contradictions.
John Dehlin [01:46:06] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:46:06] You know.
John Dehlin [01:46:07] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:46:07] You could not exist within yourself as a self respected person and respect this kind of person.
John Dehlin [01:46:13] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:46:14] You know, you are universe. I. There's a clash, you know, you're not coming together. There's no way you can reconcile yourself with this. You know.
John Dehlin [01:46:24] And you know, you had mentioned before President Gordon B. Hinckley coming to Kenya.
Joe Ngatia [01:46:29] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:46:30] 2000.
Joe Ngatia [01:46:31] 2008.
John Dehlin [01:46:32] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:46:33] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:46:33] And so you would.
Joe Ngatia [01:46:34] 1998.
John Dehlin [01:46:35] Sorry, 1998.
Joe Ngatia [01:46:36] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:46:36] This would have been 10 years. Ish. Later.
Joe Ngatia [01:46:38] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:46:39] But he. When he was asked those questions by Mike Wallace.
Joe Ngatia [01:46:43] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:46:45] Do you remember what his answer was about Brigham Young and the race?
Joe Ngatia [01:46:48] He said, oh, that's the past. That's history. We moved on from there.
John Dehlin [01:46:51] He's like, it's behind.
Joe Ngatia [01:46:52] Yes. Behind us. And that's really, you know. You know, we are developing these people. People. I remember that quote, because we are developing these people sound a little condensatic.
John Dehlin [01:47:01] But you did it at the time. Well, because, I mean, in America would go, yeah, yeah, we're teaching the language. We're helping them get educated. They were helping you get educated. Like I guess you could say technically Americans and. Or the church were developing you because you were getting your education. America. I Know that sounds rude.
Joe Ngatia [01:47:20] No.
John Dehlin [01:47:20] But I mean, how did it feel
Joe Ngatia [01:47:22] to you at the time? When I was a Mormon.
John Dehlin [01:47:24] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:47:26] I mean, this is. You could excuse SM when you're active moment. You excuse a lot of things. Yeah, yeah. You say, well, but it. It rings as a condensation now.
John Dehlin [01:47:37] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:47:38] But I don't know what I would have felt then.
John Dehlin [01:47:40] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:47:40] Yes. You know, he says behind us. I probably accepted that too, at the time.
John Dehlin [01:47:45] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:47:45] You know, because it was. And most of it, you accept in the space of your ignorance because you. I did not know then I could not quote Brigham Young in all the things he had said that came, you know, after I read the discourse of Brigham Young and that kind of thing. When you read these things, then it sounds very, very, very personal, you know.
John Dehlin [01:48:08] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:48:09] But when God Behinga came to Kenya around that time, I mean, I was still way in. In the church of, you know, I was gonna cease under the mission president, for heaven's sake. You know, I was in it.
John Dehlin [01:48:22] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:48:22] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:48:24] Okay. So you are learning. Okay. Yeah, I'm reading the quote now. Hinckley says to Mike Wallace, look, that was a different time. He was a man of his time. We don't look for revelation or inspiration on the subject today from Brigham Young or anyone else of that period. We condemn racism in any form today. It's contrary to the teachings of the church, and we are glad the issue is behind us. So that's what Hinckley said.
Joe Ngatia [01:48:53] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:48:53] And so you. It sounds like you didn't like it, but you were like, okay, I accept that.
Joe Ngatia [01:48:59] You know, I accepted it because in some way, this was the current prophet and, you know, the fact that he was condemning racism meant a lot, you know.
John Dehlin [01:49:09] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [01:49:10] Yeah, it meant a lot. It meant, like, you know, nobody could hang behind, hide behind Brigham Young's statements.
John Dehlin [01:49:17] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:49:17] Or at least while being genuine, you know, the prophet had discouraged that behavior.
John Dehlin [01:49:24] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:49:24] And so that felt good.
John Dehlin [01:49:26] Okay, so do you remember what year you transferred to byu? Provo.
Joe Ngatia [01:49:31] I graduated from Rex. I stayed at Rex for three years.
John Dehlin [01:49:35] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [01:49:35] And I graduated from there in 2001.
John Dehlin [01:49:39] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [01:49:40] And so in 2001, the fall of 2001, I went to Provo.
John Dehlin [01:49:44] Okay. And, yeah, I think that interview with Hinckley, Mike Wallace, would have been around the time of the olympics, so around 2002. Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:49:51] Okay.
John Dehlin [01:49:51] Right. That makes sense.
Joe Ngatia [01:49:52] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:49:53] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [01:49:53] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:49:54] That's bad timing.
Joe Ngatia [01:49:56] Good time. Yes. So that's when I went to BYU Provo.
John Dehlin [01:50:00] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [01:50:00] And I. I was, you know, at this time, of course.
John Dehlin [01:50:04] Wait, did you date at all At
Joe Ngatia [01:50:06] BYU Idaho I went dates, but I never had serious relationships. You know, I was still so focused in my education. I mean I had. The funny thing, when you are in pro in places like Rexburg, they are girls that seek you out. And mostly, unfortunately, they are not the faithful sisters. You know, they are usually people who come from big cities who are looking for a good time time.
John Dehlin [01:50:34] And you're talking about white.
Joe Ngatia [01:50:36] Yeah, White girls.
John Dehlin [01:50:37] So there are white female students at BYU Idaho.
Joe Ngatia [01:50:40] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:50:41] Ricks.
Joe Ngatia [01:50:41] Yes.
John Dehlin [01:50:42] Who would look for black men to date. Yes.
Joe Ngatia [01:50:46] And they, they were fun people and. But they did not feel quite at home in the practices. They were not perhaps ready to be domesticated into the mom on cage.
John Dehlin [01:50:58] Right.
Joe Ngatia [01:50:58] And so they found you. I mean naturally you are an outsider. And they, they would gravitate towards people like me and you know, and, and it was good time. They love dancing. There was a club in town, it was called Ritrix and you go dancing. They had hip hop and so it was a great place to be, you know. But I never had serious relationship at Drex College.
John Dehlin [01:51:24] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [01:51:24] Yeah, you hang out with girls and you know, but never anything serious.
John Dehlin [01:51:29] Did you like. Once you read Second Class Saints by Matt Harris, you learned that the big fear from Brigham Young to the present was that black men would date and marry white women. Did you ever feel any concern about interracial sex and. Or interracial marriage while you're at BYU Idaho?
Joe Ngatia [01:51:57] There was only one time there was a girl, I remember, and we were. We went out a few times and we were kind of close. And I think one time she confided with me and she told me she went home and showed a picture, my picture to her family. And she was upset because that without knowing me, they had stronger discourage her from going out with me. You know, they discourage interracial dating, but in. I was not in a place where I was looking for a spouse, so it did not bother me.
John Dehlin [01:52:33] Okay, good.
Joe Ngatia [01:52:34] We move on.
John Dehlin [01:52:35] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [01:52:35] And so I did not really care at that point. But later on I. I would read about Mark Peterson feelings and teaching a BYU that, you know, the Negro is not just trying to ride in the same car, you know, train with you. He's trying to marry a white woman.
John Dehlin [01:52:52] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:52:52] And that stung a little bit. And the kind of informed me to avoid people who felt like dating me was a favor. Yeah, right. I wouldn't have did if someday if I liked a girl and I met their family and they said, you know, we discourage interracial. I think could have been the End of it.
John Dehlin [01:53:12] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:53:13] I'd say, look, I don't want you to feel you're doing me a favor. Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:53:17] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [01:53:17] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:53:18] It seems to me like I'm trying to imagine going to another country where the university was teaching in a language that wasn't necessarily my first language, and trying to succeed there where I have no family or support system to speak of. That seems like it would be extraordinarily hard.
Joe Ngatia [01:53:40] It was hard. I got pretty homesick after I got my first year. I was very homesick.
John Dehlin [01:53:45] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:53:46] The language issue was never an issue because for. In Kenya, from the time you're six years old, you're learning English.
John Dehlin [01:53:52] Oh, yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:53:52] And academically, our school systems are very strong. Academic. I'd gone to very competitive schools back home.
John Dehlin [01:54:00] Wow.
Joe Ngatia [01:54:01] And so, yeah, I. I never had any issues academically. I was honorable student the whole time was a rex.
John Dehlin [01:54:08] I guess Americans sometimes erroneously feel like they have the best school schools and they're building.
Joe Ngatia [01:54:14] Yes. And the technology. Yes, they have that. But as far as intellectual, bad with. I think a lot of people are capable, you know, as far as intellectual capability, it's not always true that they have.
John Dehlin [01:54:27] Right.
Joe Ngatia [01:54:27] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:54:28] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:54:28] And so I felt I was. In fact, I felt school in America was too easy. I'm not even kidding. My first semester, I think I took 18 credit hours, you know, and I was like, like. And the only reason I did not take more is because my buddy from Kenya said, well, you may want to have a job, you know. And so I did not feel challenged by. By the academic part of it. And then when I came to BYU Provo. Yes, BYU Provo. I was financially. I was struggling. You know, I had run out of money that summer. I had gone with my friend to Alabama because he was selling door to door. Pest. Pest control or can pest control. So I follow him. He had. He told me he was making $20,000 in three months. And I said, well, this is the place to solve all my problems.
John Dehlin [01:55:20] Oh, my goodness.
Joe Ngatia [01:55:20] So you go to Alabama.
John Dehlin [01:55:22] Oh, my gosh.
Joe Ngatia [01:55:23] There's a lot I did not know. And that was an experience in and of itself. Because knocking, you know, because the kind of people who are going to buy their stuff. I know the poor black folks in this house.
John Dehlin [01:55:36] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:55:37] So you're going to white neighborhoods in Alabama.
John Dehlin [01:55:39] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:55:40] To say the least. I didn't succeed. I quit after six weeks.
John Dehlin [01:55:43] You know, I mean, I don't want to make assumptions, but I. My guess, I would guess that there'd be a lot of white wealthy Alabamans that didn't like black people knocking on their door.
Joe Ngatia [01:55:55] Actually, you'll be surprised. The moment you start talking to people, they realize you're a foreigner.
John Dehlin [01:56:01] Oh, okay.
Joe Ngatia [01:56:01] I think most people in the south, and this is an assumption, they may have some feeling towards local people who are black in their community.
John Dehlin [01:56:09] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [01:56:10] But when they see you a foreigner, they treat you differently.
John Dehlin [01:56:13] So in the south, in your experience, black Africans were treated better than African Americans?
Joe Ngatia [01:56:19] Certainly I was okay. People went to their house, got me water to drink because it was hot.
John Dehlin [01:56:24] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:56:24] The only one time I went to this house, and this old man came out and he was upset that I was there, there, and he yelled some profounder to me, told me to get off his property. That's the only time I had a bad experience.
John Dehlin [01:56:38] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [01:56:39] But I was not successful. I. I did not make $20,000. My friend Jake. Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:56:44] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:56:44] And so I had to come back, scramble, come back to Utah, get a job in a nursing home, try to raise the money to go to byu. By the time the school started that fall, I had barely had any money.
John Dehlin [01:56:57] Oh.
Joe Ngatia [01:56:57] I was about to. To be kicked out of school because I had no money to pay for tuition. And I remember going to the administration, pleading. I said, look, I need help, you know, and now that. And the lady, she was very sympathetic with me, and she said, look, you have great grades, and I'm sorry you're in this situation. I'm gonna do everything I can. I'm not promising anything, but I do everything I can to see how I can help you. But at the same time, I'm registered for these classes, and we're talking about immunology, microbiology. These were hard classes.
John Dehlin [01:57:32] Yeah. Pre med.
Joe Ngatia [01:57:33] Yes. And so here I am trying to focus. I don't have books to read. I'm trying to make it happen.
John Dehlin [01:57:40] Yeah. You can't afford books.
Joe Ngatia [01:57:41] Yes. And then she. I was very depressed. I was really, really, like, I swear by the saddest I had been because I felt really my dream was just falling apart.
John Dehlin [01:57:52] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:57:52] And this. If this was not gonna work out, there's no nowhere to go.
Medical School, Immigration, and Marriage
John Dehlin [01:57:57] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:57:58] That to me was an extension, you know?
John Dehlin [01:58:00] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:58:01] Distress.
John Dehlin [01:58:01] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:58:02] Was really. Could have been the end of my life. And I remember I went home one time, I was so sad after the classes, and nothing was happening and nobody was home. And by this. By the way, I had found the cheapest place in South Provo to live. This guy had gotten a lease for an apartment, and he had. He had a nice room, but then he had two other rooms, and he. We Are subletting it from him?
John Dehlin [01:58:27] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:58:28] I didn't have a bed. I slept on the floor. And my roommate was some guy from. A Guy from Peru. I don't know how he did. He just. He went in and out of the place. I. You know, we slept on the floor. And so anyways, I went home. Nobody's home. I knelt down and prayed to God. I said, you know, I'm in a very bad situation, and I'm not kidding. And before the prayer ended, the phone rings. What this lady from the administration said, Joe, you will not believe what just happened. I got a scholarship for you. It's gonna pay for your books and for your tuition.
John Dehlin [01:59:01] Oh, my goodness.
Joe Ngatia [01:59:02] 3,000 bucks. It was gonna pay, but it was only gonna be good for one year. So whatever I had to do, it has to finish in one year, huh? Yes.
John Dehlin [01:59:10] One year. One year. So wait, two years of pre med in one year?
Joe Ngatia [01:59:13] So I had three years that Rex.
John Dehlin [01:59:15] Yeah. Okay, so one year.
Joe Ngatia [01:59:16] So I had one year. In which case I had to take about eight microbiology classes because that was my major.
John Dehlin [01:59:22] Yeah. Okay.
Joe Ngatia [01:59:23] Medical.
John Dehlin [01:59:24] So that's a tough year.
Joe Ngatia [01:59:25] It was a tough year. I had no time. And I had to do, not just take them. I had to excel in them.
John Dehlin [01:59:31] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:59:32] I also had to take MCAT somehow in the process, so. But, you know, once again, I had the promises of God in my patrek. A blessing it could happen. So I went to work, you know, and it was the busiest year. That year was probably tougher than my first two years of medical school.
John Dehlin [01:59:51] Oh, wow.
Joe Ngatia [01:59:52] Really? Because I had very, very busy schedule.
John Dehlin [01:59:56] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [01:59:56] You know, and it prepared me for medical school because I was doing difficult classes, you know, and I had this time window in which I had to finish it, you know.
John Dehlin [02:00:06] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:00:06] And so that was BYU for me.
John Dehlin [02:00:09] Me.
Joe Ngatia [02:00:10] And then now you ask about dating.
John Dehlin [02:00:13] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:00:14] So my. My last semester, I did not get to finish. In those two semesters, I could not. I had one class that I could not finish in that window. So I had to do an extra semester to do, I believe, a couple classes. And that extra semester, I met this girl who had traveled to Africa. She was a white girl. She was from Utah. And we met, and she was the sweetest person. And we started hanging out. She had traveled all over Africa. She had gone to Ghana, Zibamba, and all these places. And we started talking. And soon enough, we were hanging out all the time. And I fell in love. Yes. And we. We were inseparable. We went out everywhere. She didn't mind the fact That I slept on the floor. I was extremely poor. And she came from a well to do family, as I would discover later. I did not know that when we met, but when she invited me over to our house, they lived in one of the suburbs of Salt Lake City and they lived in a big home. And her parents were nicest to me. They had no qualms with the fact that I was different. And we continued dating and we decided to get married. So we were engaged and. And the relationship soured eventually, mostly because of political reason. This is when George Bush decided to invade Iraq. And I had strong feelings about that. I felt, you know, that he. The truth was not being told, that there'll be casualties. And it seems like nobody cared what was happening to poor people, what was going to happen after the invasion. And it seems. But my. My fiance at the time felt like I. I seemed to. I should mind my business, that was, I should trust the government. And I felt you can trust these things. I felt like something was being made up. And so it became a constant back and forth to the point where she, like the discussion became emotional, why she would cry about it. And I. It bothered me. I obviously, I didn't want to see her cry about this. And I thought if this thing, the decent walk could make somebody so, so sad. When you get married, you're gonna have real, real problems.
John Dehlin [02:02:38] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:02:39] And so eventually we broke up.
John Dehlin [02:02:42] And. Did you say that she was white?
Joe Ngatia [02:02:44] She was white. She was a white American and that.
John Dehlin [02:02:48] But that's cool. She. She didn't see you being black as a problem and that her family.
Joe Ngatia [02:02:53] Her family was acceptable. Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:02:56] I mean, that's cool.
Joe Ngatia [02:02:58] Yeah, it was really good. I mean, I never felt any kind of way racially with her, you know, I mean, of course there was always people, you know, my buddies, they would say something, you know, but race was not a big dynamic in that region. The more important, the most important dynamic in the whole thing is our socioeconomic differences.
John Dehlin [02:03:17] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:03:18] In some ways, I did feel like she was coming in. I would never extricate myself from the fact that she would be my savior.
John Dehlin [02:03:25] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:03:25] More or less.
John Dehlin [02:03:26] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:03:27] And I didn't know how to feel about that. You know, I did not want a situation in which I would be seen as exploiting a relationship in order to get out of my financial quagmire, you know, so that did play a role in my thought process.
John Dehlin [02:03:43] So for a long, long time, the church taught, even in its curriculum, even as recently as a few years ago, if not still, that the general guidance was to marry within your race.
Joe Ngatia [02:03:54] Right.
John Dehlin [02:03:55] And marry within your socioeconomic level. Did you come across those teachings that you recall or not?
Joe Ngatia [02:04:03] Not during the relationship. There's nobody who came. I mean, I, you know, in your reading, you know, of course, at this time, I had read about, you know, their opinions, their interview that they, the opinions of the brethren.
John Dehlin [02:04:18] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [02:04:18] In the past, but in our relationship, nobody ever openly came and suggested that we ought to break this up because of our race.
John Dehlin [02:04:25] Right.
Joe Ngatia [02:04:27] And definitely not because of our socioeconomics.
John Dehlin [02:04:29] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [02:04:30] But some, you know, most people are very encouraging. You're like, well, I, I, I remember one lady, she had served, she served a mission in Kenya, her and her husband. And when I took my fiance to a house, they lived in Orem, she was very happy about this relationship. Said, joe, this will solve all your financial problems. And I felt I did us something. It did not feel right. I did not wanna be with someone to solve my financial problems.
John Dehlin [02:05:00] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:05:01] Because that's, I know that happens a lot. You know, especially among immigrants. There are people who get married to get papers in order to solve their problem. And I did not, I did not think that was more already accepted, acceptable.
John Dehlin [02:05:12] You know, believe it or not, I relate. I, I, I dated Orrin Hatch's senator, Orrin Hatch's daughter while I was at byu.
Joe Ngatia [02:05:19] Right.
John Dehlin [02:05:19] And neither of my parents finished college.
Joe Ngatia [02:05:22] Right.
John Dehlin [02:05:23] And I just remember thinking, I don't want to succeed because I married Orrin Hatch's daughter. I want to succeed on my own. Yes. And that was actually a disincentive for me personally to keep dating her. Right. I relate to that a little bit.
Joe Ngatia [02:05:37] Absolutely. You feel like you, if you continue with this.
John Dehlin [02:05:40] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:05:42] There will always be a catch in your head that tells you, did you own, did you honestly do this for the right reasons?
John Dehlin [02:05:49] Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. I think there'd probably be a lot of people who would just assume. And this sounds terrible. Oh, he's black, he's from Africa. He would love to marry into a wealthy white family.
Joe Ngatia [02:06:00] Absolutely.
John Dehlin [02:06:01] But that's not what you felt.
Joe Ngatia [02:06:02] Yes. I'm sure a lot of people would have have thought that way. And especially if you had gone through with it.
John Dehlin [02:06:07] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:06:07] Right.
John Dehlin [02:06:07] Yeah. Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:06:09] But, and actually, people like, mostly Kenyan that I knew, they'll say, you know, this should be good for you. You know, this will solve a lot of problem for you.
John Dehlin [02:06:17] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:06:18] And, and it was all too convenient because especially when you. I was taken out. I had been accepted at the medical, in the medical school.
John Dehlin [02:06:26] So you got into med school.
Joe Ngatia [02:06:27] Yes. Maybe I didn't mention that. So I. I take the mcat, you know, I made it my troubles. Right. And I did pretty well.
John Dehlin [02:06:35] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:06:35] And so I interviewed several places for medical school back east, mostly close to my sister, and then. Yeah. Boston, Dartmouth and Brown and those places.
John Dehlin [02:06:48] Those Ivy League.
Joe Ngatia [02:06:49] No, I wanted to go. I mean, this is, to me, was big. I wanted to go big, you know, And. And then, of course, I also interviewed at the University of Utah job. And I remember when, you know, I was. I believe it's Dartmouth, they said, well, you know, we could accept you, but we have a problem for you to come to school here you are. You know, it's expensive. We need. You need to establish you can successfully pay for your education. So I. I was asked to put a deposit, I think, of $50,000.
John Dehlin [02:07:22] Oh, my goodness.
Joe Ngatia [02:07:23] And I'm like, if I had $50,000, my name would be Joe Buffett, you know? And I know that was Joe what? Buffett. Warren Buffett. I didn't have that kind of money. I never seen that kind of money.
John Dehlin [02:07:36] Wow.
Joe Ngatia [02:07:36] And so I couldn't. I knew that was not gonna work.
John Dehlin [02:07:40] You could have gone to Dartmouth.
Joe Ngatia [02:07:41] I could have, yes. I interviewed there, and the interview went pretty well.
John Dehlin [02:07:46] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:07:46] And they had a Dartmouth Brown program where you did two years at Dartmouth, and then the last two years you did a Brown.
John Dehlin [02:07:53] Dang.
Joe Ngatia [02:07:54] And so I was, you know, I interviewed both places, and I could have, you know, Ivani had been born in the right place, but then. So I had to give up those dreams.
John Dehlin [02:08:05] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:08:06] Because I had lived in Utah at this point. I had lived in Utah for two years. And I thought, you know, in situation at the time, Utah was going to be $12,000. This is another gross misunderstanding of my situation, because being a foreign student, you are never. You can never pay in situation, your tuition is always going to be double.
John Dehlin [02:08:25] I didn't know that.
Joe Ngatia [02:08:27] I didn't know either until I showed up. Oh, and
John Dehlin [02:08:32] now after you accepted.
Joe Ngatia [02:08:33] Yeah, I was accepted.
John Dehlin [02:08:35] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [02:08:35] And. And I'm like. Well, I was still. Remember, I was still financially destitute, more or less.
John Dehlin [02:08:41] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:08:41] I had a hard time paying for byu.
John Dehlin [02:08:43] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:08:44] Now, this is. We are talking about real money here.
John Dehlin [02:08:46] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:08:47] And I remember. So you accepted some time in the spring. So I contacted pf. The Perpetual Education Fund.
John Dehlin [02:08:56] Church. Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:08:57] And I said, you know, this is my best chance. And so I called and I. I talked to a guy. You know, I never met this man. He just picked the phone and he looked so. He wasn't always cheerful talking to you. He said that was his name. He said. So I told him my situation, said, look. He told me, look, this is for undergraduate studies. Your situation is different. You are not, you are not a candidate for this loan. So I left him be. I started looking elsewhere.
John Dehlin [02:09:26] Right.
Joe Ngatia [02:09:27] So I contacted all my friends in America, you know, that, you know, I realized you could get a private loan, but you needed to have somebody to call Signia loans. And at the end of my list of all the people I called and they all said no. You know, then it was already now almost time to start medical school. I had tried the whole summer looking for, you know, for a way to pay for my medical school.
John Dehlin [02:09:53] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:09:54] And I am in a serious predicament.
John Dehlin [02:09:56] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:09:57] And I remember when I went to the white coat ceremony. That's before you start medical school. They invite you to the auditorium, they put a white coat on you. And this would have been the happiest moment because now you made it, you're in medical school. But even as I put that white coat, I knew I hadn't found the money. I was terribly sad. I was really here. It's like going to the funeral to see the death of your dreams.
John Dehlin [02:10:20] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:10:22] And I went out of there knowing that this maybe is the last moments for my dreams. So I went away and I say, you know, I circled back to pf. I said, look. He says within a few sentence he start winding the conversation. No, you're not a candidate. I said, I'm not gonna let this guy off the phone. Easy. So I said, look. And I really persuaded him. He kept quiet for a long time. He said, I'm very touched by your story. I want you to write a letter for me. Write the things you just told me and then I'll take it to whoever, director of this program. We probably can give you a one time loan, but you cannot come back again.
John Dehlin [02:11:03] Wow.
Joe Ngatia [02:11:04] This will be it. But all I needed is $12,000 I had saved. I had worked this summer. I had had, you know, the church maximum for PF loan was going to be $10,000. I had the two extra thousand dollars for insta tuition that I thought I was. I could pay and call it good. So that went through. I paid for tuition when, you know, and then started medical school.
John Dehlin [02:11:25] Oh my goodness. So the church perpetual education fund financed your first year of medical school?
Joe Ngatia [02:11:31] They gave me a loan. Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:11:33] That's a miracle.
Joe Ngatia [02:11:34] Yeah, I thought, you know, so they gave me that PF loan and I came up with a little extra and I could afford to pay for my books. Because I had a great job. I was doing my microbial immunology, their lab in at the research park.
John Dehlin [02:11:47] Oh.
Joe Ngatia [02:11:47] And they're paying me pretty well.
John Dehlin [02:11:49] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:11:49] And so I just kept my job for the weekends, you know, and I could afford to pay for my books, I could afford to pay for my cost of living. And I thought, that's it. My first year is taken care of. Until I got a notice. Oh, your tuition is really twice as what you thought it would be because you're a foreign student, you have to pay twice as much. And that was really a dark day. And so the struggle continued. And that was the story of my medical school, really. It's constant struggle to try to finance it.
John Dehlin [02:12:21] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:12:22] Calling all sorts of people around the country to see whether they'll call, sign my loans, you know, and that the fact that I, you know, I succeeded, I, you know, like the education piece was never too much to me.
John Dehlin [02:12:36] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:12:37] I could do that.
John Dehlin [02:12:38] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:12:39] But coming up. And every year's tuition goes up. So the first year made $24,000. The next year is 28. Or in 33, by the time you're coming out of medical school is like almost, almost 40. That $40,000.
John Dehlin [02:12:53] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:12:54] And there was a constant perpetuous struggle. And I could never go back to bf, you know.
John Dehlin [02:12:58] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:12:59] So. But I did have friends, you know, to cosign some, you know, my loans and Mormon friends, mostly Kenyans who lived in America.
John Dehlin [02:13:10] Really?
Joe Ngatia [02:13:10] Yes. And my good friend from Oregon during my third year, because now I could no longer work. When you go to third year and fourth year medical school, you have really unpredictable. Unpredictable schedule. So I could never work in the lab anymore. So I needed to have finance the whole year.
John Dehlin [02:13:29] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:13:30] Otherwise it was going to be difficult. So my friend from Oregon, my first roommate in America, he cost on my loan for the whole year.
John Dehlin [02:13:39] Dang.
Joe Ngatia [02:13:39] That's like $33,000.
John Dehlin [02:13:41] That's not a Kenyan guy.
Joe Ngatia [02:13:42] No, he's. He's a cowboy from Pentatonia, Oregon. Yeah, My. It's like my. One of my best friends in America.
John Dehlin [02:13:49] That's a lot of money.
Joe Ngatia [02:13:50] That's a lot of money. And he was on the hook. If I left America, he would have to pay for the money.
John Dehlin [02:13:55] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:13:55] And so that's why it's so hard to find people too willing to do that. And so he jumped a few details because at this point, by the third year, married. that point.
John Dehlin [02:14:06] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [02:14:07] I married a, A lady. You know, during the space between my second and third year, I got married 2004. But yeah.
John Dehlin [02:14:17] Where was she from?
Joe Ngatia [02:14:18] My wife, we met in. In Salik. She had. She was starting her undergraduate when we met. I was starting medical school. She was from. She was a refugee from Haiti. They had come to America as refugees from Haiti.
John Dehlin [02:14:34] She French speaking or French speaking.
Joe Ngatia [02:14:36] They speak French Creole. And we hit it off. And so we did it for like a year. And then in 2004, during my second year of medical school, we got married.
John Dehlin [02:14:47] Was she lds?
Joe Ngatia [02:14:48] She was lds. She was born into the church in Haiti.
John Dehlin [02:14:51] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [02:14:51] Yeah. And so her dad was. He was a taxi driver in Salt Lake City. Her mom worked Walmart.
John Dehlin [02:14:59] They weren't helping you through med school? No, they were, you know, they were
Joe Ngatia [02:15:02] surviving like I was. But there was a sudden beauty in the relationship. Like, their family was a very welcoming place. Every Sunday, they would invite me to their house, give me Sunday dinner, and it was a beautiful experience. It was like. It gave me a family away from home. That's something I was really hungry for.
John Dehlin [02:15:22] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:15:22] It's a sudden understanding, spiritual understanding that, you know, social understanding that I received from interacting with them.
John Dehlin [02:15:31] And you met her through the church?
Joe Ngatia [02:15:33] Yeah, we met in. In the Valley. Yeah. And so we got married in Jordan River Temple, you know, in 2004, and, you know, and, you know, continued with our lives.
John Dehlin [02:15:46] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [02:15:47] And so. But it was not an easy, you know, marriage because obviously she walks into this and one of the most interesting thing, as soon as she. She would get married, she believed things could easily work because their family had very many, you know, a few Americans. I helped them a lot, you know, and she believed all you have to do. She said, joe, you're very stubborn. You know, you just need to go to someone. They'll fix all this for you. I said, it's not that easy. These are big problems. And so she. I remember I couldn't keep out of it. And so she said, okay, let me just give me one chance. I solve your problem. I said, okay. So she went to our family, they are a friend. Family friend of theirs, and made the pitch. You know, he's very smart. He know he'll pay the loan. Of course, you were sent away so that nobody. I can't blame people for not taking that huge responsibility, financial responsibility. So then she came with me to University of Utah to the accounting office, tried to talk to the lady there, say, well, there was, you know, he. You know, he's struggling. He's smart. You should. What can you do for him? And I remember that lady looking at my sweet bride here, young and naive wife, and she's like, oh, did you just get married? And she. Oh, yes, this summer. Like, I'm sorry you got dragged into this mess. That's what she said to her. I was horrified. And I said, no, you cannot be involved in this mess. This is my mess. You stay out of it, you know?
John Dehlin [02:17:21] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:17:22] And eventually I did. I finished Medical School in 2007.
John Dehlin [02:17:27] And it sounds like her family had experienced a lot of generosity.
Joe Ngatia [02:17:33] Absolutely.
John Dehlin [02:17:34] From Mormons in Utah.
Joe Ngatia [02:17:35] Absolutely.
John Dehlin [02:17:36] Because that was her expectations they had. You will be able to find generous Mormons that will help you.
Joe Ngatia [02:17:40] Absolutely. They had very, very good Mormon friend. And my father in law is one of the most cheerful guy you ever met.
John Dehlin [02:17:47] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:17:48] He. Everywhere he goes, he's surrounded by friends.
John Dehlin [02:17:50] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:17:51] And so I can imagine he never had a shortage of friends.
John Dehlin [02:17:54] Yeah. Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:17:55] And so. But they kind of she. The kind of problem we are dealing with. These are huge problems, you know, and so, so we, you know, I was surprised I was able to come up with the money. It was like $180,000 by the time you finish medical school. Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:18:13] That's wild.
Joe Ngatia [02:18:14] These are huge private loans you're taking.
John Dehlin [02:18:16] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:18:18] The unfortunate thing during my, you know, in medical school, you don't register your own classes. You don't go to the computer and register. So this secretary that puts your class in your schedule, you.
John Dehlin [02:18:30] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:18:31] And after I paid my tuition for the third year, I assume they were, you know, and I was going to school every day like everybody else and I was getting my grades.
John Dehlin [02:18:39] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:18:39] And then I get a letter like, towards the end, you have not been going to school for the whole year, even though I was. And as a result, you are no longer here legally in this country.
John Dehlin [02:18:53] Oh, your visa got canceled.
Joe Ngatia [02:18:55] Yes. And because it had happened so long, they said, you cannot just go to the office and fix the problem. You have to leave the country. And I'm like, what I thought was a joke, so I went to this to get my transcript, walk to the international students office and say, look, there's a misunderstanding here. I have all my grids. As you can see, I've never not gone to school. I've kept accept the terms and the conditions of my visa. This is a misunderstanding. You need to fix it. You say, sorry you took so long to come. I just found out. You look. So, you know, after five months, we cannot fix this. You need to leave the country.
John Dehlin [02:19:36] Dang.
Joe Ngatia [02:19:37] And I'm like, what? So there was a. A lot of heated argument about it between me and them. And finally they said, look, Joe, we Cannot kick you out of the country. Country. If you want to stay in the country illegally. We're not. We'll let you finish your school. But just know this, at some point before you go to the next part of your journey, you have to leave the country. And that was, to me, was an opening because I was not going to leave the country before I got my md, you know, So I stayed in that country, you know, illegally, for mysterious reason, finish my medical school degree. And then, of course, you have to apply for residency.
John Dehlin [02:20:18] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:20:18] So I just use my obsoleted papers to says, you know, they show me your papers, you're here legally. And I send them their visa I had, and everything was processed as usual. It's only when I show up to my residency, they say, your papers are not good. And then I explained to them the situation and they were upset about that. They. This is at the University of Florida where I did my residency.
John Dehlin [02:20:41] Oh.
Joe Ngatia [02:20:41] And they say, look, we're gonna use our lawyers to see whether we can help you.
John Dehlin [02:20:45] Whoa.
Joe Ngatia [02:20:46] Yes. So the University of Florida, they got their lawyers involved, but they said, we can't promise you because it's been so much time has passed.
John Dehlin [02:20:54] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:20:55] There's a good chance you still have to leave the country to pick up your visa from a third country.
John Dehlin [02:20:59] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [02:21:00] And so I was, you know, I had no money at this time. We will have one kid. We already had a son.
John Dehlin [02:21:05] Oh.
Joe Ngatia [02:21:06] I got. My son was born during my final year medical. Medical school.
John Dehlin [02:21:09] And did you have. We on Medicaid or Medicare? Like, how did you.
Joe Ngatia [02:21:13] Well, my wife worked.
John Dehlin [02:21:14] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [02:21:15] And so she worked part, you know, she worked. And of course, her mom and dad helped us, you know, however they could.
John Dehlin [02:21:22] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:21:22] And we lived in a one room place in South Salt Lake so we could manage. She was on wic. You know how they.
John Dehlin [02:21:30] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:21:30] When you get a baby, they give you eggs, whatever.
John Dehlin [02:21:33] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:21:33] And so you can be on Medicare when you're foreign. And so we couldn't be on that. But you got food, you got that wick food, you know, and so. So we go to Florida, the University of Florida. Lawyers get involved and after, you know, they say, the chance or take America for you not to have to leave the country.
John Dehlin [02:21:55] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:21:56] Three weeks later, I get a call from the department, my department of surgery. I started in general surgery. Surgery. They say, well, the secretary said, hey, miracle boy, come over to the office to pick up your visa. They don't. They don't want you to leave the country.
John Dehlin [02:22:10] So many, so many miracles. I know.
Joe Ngatia [02:22:13] And they didn't Ask me to leave the country. They said, well, it really. You went to school in four years like any other medical student.
John Dehlin [02:22:20] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:22:21] Somebody made a mess. It was not your fault.
John Dehlin [02:22:23] Oh.
Joe Ngatia [02:22:24] And that was the resolution of a very dark phase of my life.
John Dehlin [02:22:29] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:22:29] Because beyond this point, I was getting paid. I could support. Support my family.
John Dehlin [02:22:34] So as a resident, you get paid.
Joe Ngatia [02:22:35] Yeah, as a resident, you get paid enough to pay your, you know, it's enough income. You know, it's not. You're not paid as a doctor.
John Dehlin [02:22:43] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:22:43] You paid a little less than a nurse, but enough that you can feed yourself, pay for a place to live nice. And so the rest of them, you know, it. The rest. Life became so much easier from that point.
John Dehlin [02:22:55] And did you end up. You don't have to answer this, but, like, I would guess, you had to pay back all these people that gave you loans or.
Joe Ngatia [02:23:02] Well, I had to pay the loans themselves.
John Dehlin [02:23:05] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:23:05] So when I finished residency.
John Dehlin [02:23:07] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:23:07] I made it, of course, all our private loans, meaning, like, the interest rate is crazy.
John Dehlin [02:23:12] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:23:13] So we lived in a little. We rented little places. And the first. Within four years, all my loans were paid off. I needed to get all of it paid off.
John Dehlin [02:23:21] You paid off all those loans?
Joe Ngatia [02:23:22] Yes, I paid $180,000 in a very short time. I had to. We. We paid off our loans. And then I knew that. That, you know, the arbitrage was gone, you know, and because I needed to give people the reassurance that they will not be, you know, stuck with the money they had helped me with, you
John Dehlin [02:23:40] know, but that's so. That's so wonderful.
Joe Ngatia [02:23:44] Yeah. But I felt privileged, you know, as hard as I ever had been. There were all these miraculous events that happened, and I. I thought I was one of the luckiest people.
John Dehlin [02:23:56] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:23:57] You know.
John Dehlin [02:23:57] Yeah. Now, I'm guessing that during all this time in med school, you didn't have a lot of time to think about your testimony. Is that right? Or did you?
Faith During Medical Training
Joe Ngatia [02:24:05] Well, I, you know, obviously I went to church whenever occasion permitted.
John Dehlin [02:24:11] Yeah. Your wife was active, right?
Joe Ngatia [02:24:14] My wife was active. My wife, more or less. She's our return missionary. But she, you know, she went to church and. Yeah, I still, from time to time. I remember one time we lived in South Salt Lake, and I. It was. I don't know what the organization was we are sitting on before church. Like, our church started later and it was on tv. There was a commercial that shows knee fights. Fighting. You know, like the book A Moment story.
John Dehlin [02:24:44] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:24:45] And I just assume it was a church informatio. And then at the end of the whole thing, the voices some, to the extent. It's amazing after all these battles that are waged with metal and there is no archaeological evidence to support this Book of Mormon claims. And I remember that distinctly. It was on tv.
John Dehlin [02:25:06] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:25:07] And so in the background, I was always trying to understand. In fact, my quest for understanding the issues that had caused the contradiction was ongoing. As little time as I had was went on in the background.
John Dehlin [02:25:23] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:25:24] It was still as a medical student, I discovered the mistranslation of the hero graphics in the Book of Abraham. Yeah, that's. As a. That discovery pushed me a little further, you know.
John Dehlin [02:25:39] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:25:40] And so, yeah, I was still. I was active, but it was still that fine balance between, you know, what. You know, the objective reality and what you want to believe.
John Dehlin [02:25:51] Now, you would have learned organic evolution in your biology classes in undergrad, even at byu.
Joe Ngatia [02:26:00] Even at byu.
John Dehlin [02:26:00] Did you ever have to think about former church leaders, denunciation of evolution as a heresy and then reconcile that with what you were learning in your biology classes or not?
Joe Ngatia [02:26:14] I did not. I don't believe I spent too much time on that. Okay. You know, but I do.
John Dehlin [02:26:21] That makes sense.
Joe Ngatia [02:26:22] Before medical school, I had to do, you know, you have to do research. There was one memorable research lab I signed off to a byu. It was called Molecular Genealogy.
John Dehlin [02:26:34] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:26:35] And Molecular Genealogy, it was one of the most, most labs, usually the professor sits with you, they tell you what the objectives are.
John Dehlin [02:26:43] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:26:43] What they're trying to get to. But this was a top notch secretive lab.
John Dehlin [02:26:49] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:26:50] The professor never told you everything was hush hush.
John Dehlin [02:26:53] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:26:54] I would come to find out and people would bring their specimen. I remember seeing some Native American looking person, you know, outside the lab, you know, and I don't know whether this. I, in my. I made the connection in my mind later that perhaps this was a research into the claim, perhaps the Native American were Israelites or, you know, but I never, nobody ever told me this, but I'm like, it was called molecular genealogy. And I wondered what that was all about because it was one of the most secretive places.
John Dehlin [02:27:31] Oh.
Joe Ngatia [02:27:31] So if there was any issue between what I was learning and the contradiction with the truth claims of the church, that would have been the only thing. And I don't think I spent too much time on it.
John Dehlin [02:27:44] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [02:27:45] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:27:47] Do you remember, does the name Joseph Sitati mean anything to you? Yes.
Joe Ngatia [02:27:53] In fact, he's mentioned in my book.
John Dehlin [02:27:55] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [02:27:56] Yes. Joseph Sitachi. You know, he was one of the first members of the church in Kenya. So he was my first District president. When I was, you know, when I. When I joined the church, he was.
John Dehlin [02:28:07] So you knew him when you were in Kenya?
Joe Ngatia [02:28:09] I knew. Brother started very well.
John Dehlin [02:28:11] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [02:28:12] Yeah. And his kids, his daughter was one of. My classmate at byu. I played with his kids. And as a missionary, I spent some time in his house, you know, when, you know, dinner appointment and all that. He was in the same branch, like when he came to church, he was in the same branch, the same congregation as us.
John Dehlin [02:28:30] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [02:28:31] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:28:31] During my mission and tell our viewers and listeners who he is and why his name matters.
Joe Ngatia [02:28:36] Yeah. Joseph Study was. Is one of the most prominent Mormon leaders in Africa. So he was one of. I. I believe he was the first, First African to be called to be a general authority.
John Dehlin [02:28:52] It says the first black African.
Joe Ngatia [02:28:53] Yeah, the first black African. White Africans from South Africa.
John Dehlin [02:28:57] Yeah, yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:28:57] But Africans, when I see. Yeah, I should specify he was the first black African General authority from, you know, from af. You know, he was Kenyan, but he
John Dehlin [02:29:06] got called to the first quorum of the 70, which is a legit general authority. Not an area authority.
Joe Ngatia [02:29:11] Not an area authority. He was a member of the first Quran of the 70.
John Dehlin [02:29:15] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:29:16] And in fact, when, after we. After my residency, he would visit me in Bismarck, you know, he came to visit me in Bismarck with his wife. They passed by, and as part of my. My faith crisis, I had a discussion with him. So. So he will feature down the road in our discussion.
John Dehlin [02:29:41] Oh, okay. Okay.
Joe Ngatia [02:29:42] Yes.
John Dehlin [02:29:42] Well, do you remember feeling good about him being called, Seeing a black African, being called as a general authority?
Joe Ngatia [02:29:50] Oh, yeah, it was, you know, this is somebody I knew personally, so that's always exciting, you know, the fact that, you know, the. The church in Kenya was deemed to be strong enough to produce this. This stature of a man, you know, was exciting to me.
John Dehlin [02:30:07] Me. Okay.
Joe Ngatia [02:30:08] Yeah. And so that, yeah, that was, you know, you. But at this point, on the other hand, I was a little bit more than a decade removed. You know, I was. I was living in America, so it would have been less exciting because I was gone from home for so long.
John Dehlin [02:30:26] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [02:30:26] Yeah. But it was a familiar face.
John Dehlin [02:30:28] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [02:30:29] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:30:30] All right. So you graduated from med school, you're married, you have at least one kid.
Joe Ngatia [02:30:35] Yes.
John Dehlin [02:30:36] How did your Mormon story progress?
Joe Ngatia [02:30:39] So at this point, so I. We moved to Florida. And so that's why I did my residency surgery. I started in general surgery. And then in my second year, I moved to anesthesiology.
John Dehlin [02:30:50] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [02:30:51] I am anesthesiologist.
John Dehlin [02:30:52] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [02:30:53] Yeah. So I was, you know, I was always trying I. I would always think of all the things that had happened to me.
John Dehlin [02:31:01] Me.
Joe Ngatia [02:31:02] I felt it would be a great act of ingratitude in some ways.
John Dehlin [02:31:08] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:31:08] To walk away from the church.
John Dehlin [02:31:10] Well, that's. That's exactly how I was going to set it up. But I didn't want to bias.
Joe Ngatia [02:31:14] Yes.
John Dehlin [02:31:14] Load the question. But like, we've spent now two and a half hours.
Joe Ngatia [02:31:19] Yes.
John Dehlin [02:31:19] And it's like miracle after miracle after miracle after miracle.
Joe Ngatia [02:31:23] Yes.
John Dehlin [02:31:23] All connected to the church.
Joe Ngatia [02:31:25] Yes.
John Dehlin [02:31:26] And to white people, Utahns and Ida in America.
Joe Ngatia [02:31:30] Yes.
John Dehlin [02:31:30] And now you're on. Now you're set to be a wealthy doctor.
Joe Ngatia [02:31:36] Right.
John Dehlin [02:31:37] In America. Now, of course, you did the work. Yes. And you went to good schools in Kenya that weren't Mormon schools. So, I mean, I guess you can't credit the church with how well you did in school. That would be your African education and your upbringing. Right. But still, all those people that gave you loans and. And the family and your wife and the community.
Joe Ngatia [02:32:01] Yes. It was very hard to leave, you know, for me. And then, of course, to leave the church.
John Dehlin [02:32:06] Well, wait, you didn't leave right after middle school?
Joe Ngatia [02:32:09] No, I did.
John Dehlin [02:32:10] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [02:32:11] It was impossible for me to take, in spite of what I knew and the contradictions I thought existed.
John Dehlin [02:32:17] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:32:19] And had it been anything other than very personal things.
John Dehlin [02:32:23] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:32:24] Like the issue. There's no way you can appraise racial questions in a gentle way.
John Dehlin [02:32:30] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:32:31] If you're deeply visceral. To you. It's deeply. The things that were said were deeply offensive. But then the things. My experiences were so profoundly powerful.
John Dehlin [02:32:44] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:32:44] That you cannot just walk away.
John Dehlin [02:32:46] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:32:47] I felt like, you know, I was in this situation. Why I could not just leave. I had. In addition to the spiritual experience I had.
John Dehlin [02:32:58] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:32:59] The most important is that burning in the bosom.
John Dehlin [02:33:01] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:33:02] Because I still felt that it was just good people being nice to you. You could say, well, they're good Catholic, they're good Muslims. They'll do a lot of good in the world.
John Dehlin [02:33:10] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:33:11] If it's about having a good education, there are a lot of Kenyans who come to America who are normals, who become doctors.
John Dehlin [02:33:16] Right.
Joe Ngatia [02:33:17] So those things you can discredit easy, easily.
John Dehlin [02:33:19] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [02:33:20] The one thing you cannot walk away from.
John Dehlin [02:33:22] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:33:22] Is the burning in the bosom. Because that, to me, Mantis. This divine connection between you and somebody who tells you. Yeah. This book is divine.
John Dehlin [02:33:30] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:33:30] You know.
John Dehlin [02:33:31] Absolutely. Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:33:32] That this is the honor.
John Dehlin [02:33:33] True church.
Joe Ngatia [02:33:34] You can walk away from anything else.
John Dehlin [02:33:35] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:33:36] But that one you could not walk away from.
John Dehlin [02:33:38] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [02:33:39] And so when I was in Florida, I think halfway through my time in Florida, I was called to be the. Believe, the second counselor to the Squam president, Elder Scorm president in my ward. And as such, so we would. My Elder Scorm president was a young guy. We biked together. He was a good friend of mine. And I remember one time you. We would met, you know, he was a PhD student. So we go out whenever we had time to go see members, try to activate people. And one of the person we had to reactivate was this guy and his wife who are going through a faith crisis.
John Dehlin [02:34:21] Oh.
Joe Ngatia [02:34:23] And, you know, and I. You know, we left and went home and I thought, you know, I really want to talk to this guy more. I need to. So, you know, I invited the couple to our house and I told Vicky, my wife, what these people were going through. And he said, yeah, we should talk to them because we were, you know, in our. We secretly. We were going through the same thing. We knew these things.
John Dehlin [02:34:42] Things.
Joe Ngatia [02:34:42] Right. But they were a lot more vocal than we were. They were both American, and Americans tend to be more vocal about their discontent.
John Dehlin [02:34:50] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:34:52] So they came over and I remember discussing. They say, well, they went through other truth claims that they discredit, you know, especially the wife. He said, I. I no longer. I feel like I was lied to. I was told that the Book of Mormon was written by Native Americans who came from Israel. There's absolutely no evidence that any Native American tribe is Semitic.
John Dehlin [02:35:20] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:35:20] And she's. She's also a doctor. She's smart lady. And so she's. And then she went through the priesthood, she said. And then she turned to us, she said, I don't know what I would say. Like, the things I read about church leaders saying about black people, I'm amazed that you can stand it. Either you don't know it, or you have something that I could never have.
John Dehlin [02:35:46] Whoa.
Joe Ngatia [02:35:47] You know, it was, you know, it's a direct.
John Dehlin [02:35:51] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:35:53] And I admired her for her courage.
John Dehlin [02:35:56] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:35:56] You know, because I felt these things. She was not telling me anything. I did not know.
John Dehlin [02:36:00] You're. Oh, wow.
Joe Ngatia [02:36:01] Yes. I knew. Knew just about all those things.
John Dehlin [02:36:04] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:36:05] You know, I knew about the mistranslation of the hierographic. All those things she went through. There was whole laundry list of things. But she had. She was not sitting in. In. In action. Like I was sitting in this place. I was waiting for fate to resolve the questions for me. More or less.
John Dehlin [02:36:26] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:36:26] You know, I had acquired the knowledge, but it just sat in me.
John Dehlin [02:36:29] Me. Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:36:29] You Know.
John Dehlin [02:36:30] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:36:31] And so I, I, by the time I left Florida, I knew I needed to do something.
John Dehlin [02:36:38] And around what year was this again?
Joe Ngatia [02:36:39] I left Florida in 2011.
John Dehlin [02:36:42] But when you had this conversation with
Joe Ngatia [02:36:44] this couple, it would have been in 2009, 2010.
John Dehlin [02:36:49] Okay. So I'm just, I'm trying to think about where the Mormon Internet was in 2019. In, in 22,009, 2010. So Mormon stories would have had been started at that point, but hadn't I was in grad school.
Joe Ngatia [02:37:07] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:37:07] So I had paused it.
Joe Ngatia [02:37:09] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:37:09] Mormon Think was out the website. Mormon Think. But the CS letter had not come out.
Joe Ngatia [02:37:14] No.
John Dehlin [02:37:14] The gospel topics essays had not come out. Right. And there was not widespread knowledge of this issue about the long list of church issues. It would have been very hard.
Joe Ngatia [02:37:24] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:37:25] For someone to learn those issues.
Joe Ngatia [02:37:27] Right.
John Dehlin [02:37:27] Let alone talk about them. So. Yes. This is kind of rare that you would have found someone like this.
Joe Ngatia [02:37:32] Yes, absolutely. Knew I, I had, you know, and I remember writing in my diary, my journal.
John Dehlin [02:37:38] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:37:39] After this meeting.
John Dehlin [02:37:40] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:37:41] The fact that she, she was very fluent on these issues.
John Dehlin [02:37:44] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:37:45] And now to me mean, the question I had, why would you care? She was blonde hair, blue eyed person.
John Dehlin [02:37:52] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:37:52] Like in the first place, this is not your fight.
John Dehlin [02:37:55] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:37:55] That's what I thought.
John Dehlin [02:37:56] The racist stuff.
Joe Ngatia [02:37:57] Yeah. I mean, I did not feel like it had anything she could have sit comfortably in the church.
John Dehlin [02:38:02] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:38:03] And not be bothered.
John Dehlin [02:38:04] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:38:06] And of course, until I met her mom, I think they were. Her parents came from South America somewhere. They were darker people.
John Dehlin [02:38:12] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [02:38:12] And so I assumed that was a bridge, you know, but even then it kind of puzzled me that she cared.
John Dehlin [02:38:19] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:38:20] But she was very fluent in these issues.
John Dehlin [02:38:22] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:38:23] And she talked about it, you know, and as I said, I. The issue of raising priests, you know, the denial priesthood, that was nothing new to me.
John Dehlin [02:38:34] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:38:34] I knew quite a bit about the, the Book of Abraham, misranslation. I knew that as a medical student. Right. And those sort of issues were not new to me. And when she brought it up, I was a little, I think I felt a certain way when she said, well, I'm surprised that you sit comfortably.
John Dehlin [02:38:57] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:38:58] You know.
John Dehlin [02:38:58] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:38:59] In spite of knowing this and the book. What's. What's his Name? There was a book written about Joseph Smith, Rough Stone Roaring by Richard Bushman. Yeah. That was already out.
John Dehlin [02:39:10] Yeah, that was.
Joe Ngatia [02:39:10] And I had read it and I think that was. Yes. And so know anybody who have read that book? It kind of mentioned something about the character, you know, the polygamy issues, you
John Dehlin [02:39:22] know, but it was written to help people stay believing in the church.
Joe Ngatia [02:39:26] Yes. But it also kind of whets your appetite if you really want to go. You know, for a person who is reflective, you have read this and you think there's more to it. Right. And so you could have read. You know, there was. Was plenty of platform.
John Dehlin [02:39:42] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:39:42] And there's a lady named Fawn Brody or something.
John Dehlin [02:39:45] Brody.
Joe Ngatia [02:39:46] No, man, I read. I remember. Yes, I. I read that book, too.
John Dehlin [02:39:49] Oh, okay. Yes, that's a problem.
Joe Ngatia [02:39:51] Yes. So. So you reading these sort of things brought a sudden worldview that would not have existed.
John Dehlin [02:40:00] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:40:00] If you just focus on Mormon approved literature.
John Dehlin [02:40:04] Oh, that's the book that took me and Margi out of the church in like 2001. Done. Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:40:08] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:40:09] I mean, didn't take us out of the church. It. We lost our orthodox belief at that point.
Joe Ngatia [02:40:15] It got you on the journey. Yeah, yeah. And. And, And I remember I read it around that time.
John Dehlin [02:40:20] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:40:20] You know, and so there were. The thing is, once you start going on this path, this is snowballs. You get more and more evidence of what you're looking for.
John Dehlin [02:40:31] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:40:31] And so by the time I.
John Dehlin [02:40:33] We.
Joe Ngatia [02:40:33] I finished my residency to move to. You know, of course, when I was finishing my residency, I was still on a H1B visa, and so I needed to go to a medically underserved community. I could not just pick up and go to Salt Lake City, for example. I had to go to some rural America somewhere.
John Dehlin [02:40:48] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:40:49] So we'll say the Mississippi or North Dakota. So signed up to move to North Dakota. I felt I understood the American west well enough, you know, so we moved to North Dakota.
John Dehlin [02:40:59] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [02:41:00] And so that was seen at the end of 2011.
John Dehlin [02:41:03] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [02:41:04] And at this point, I had a lot more time to do more homework.
John Dehlin [02:41:09] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:41:10] And there's something that happens to you when you get children.
John Dehlin [02:41:13] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:41:13] You know, they start asking questions, you know, or sometimes people treat them a certain way, and then you feel, you know, you feel, you know, like you can live with your own doubt, but if something happened to your kid, it's different.
John Dehlin [02:41:27] Or mistreatment.
Joe Ngatia [02:41:28] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:41:29] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:41:29] Or like you feel like somebody think these kids are special. This one is not.
John Dehlin [02:41:33] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:41:34] You know, either with their body language or the little things they do.
John Dehlin [02:41:37] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:41:37] So that kind of gets you going.
John Dehlin [02:41:39] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [02:41:40] Yeah.
Life as a Doctor and Mormon in North Dakota
John Dehlin [02:41:41] So. So how did your Mormonism progress in North Dakota? As a doctor, As a physician.
Joe Ngatia [02:41:50] Yeah. As a doctor now, I had a lot of more space. I had a lot of freedom. I had a lot more space. I no longer was weighed down by the distraction of survival. Survival. Yeah. Because there's a lot of survival thing. The previous 10 years.
John Dehlin [02:42:03] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:42:04] I was barely surviving.
John Dehlin [02:42:05] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:42:05] Now the weight is off my shoulder. I can take time to do a lot of study.
John Dehlin [02:42:09] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:42:10] And you also, you would also remember, you know, the end of 2011 into 2012, these are huge things happening in the political arena.
John Dehlin [02:42:21] Yeah. That's Mitt Romney.
Joe Ngatia [02:42:22] Mitt Romney. Obama.
John Dehlin [02:42:23] Yeah. And Obama. Yeah. And Obama was elected in 28. 2008.
Joe Ngatia [02:42:27] Yeah. So this is his second term.
John Dehlin [02:42:29] He would run against John McCain in 2008.
Joe Ngatia [02:42:31] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:42:31] 2012. He was running against Mitt Romney.
Joe Ngatia [02:42:33] Exactly.
John Dehlin [02:42:34] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:42:34] This is rural America. Very conservative, very Republican people.
John Dehlin [02:42:38] Huh.
Joe Ngatia [02:42:39] And you'd walk in church and you hear some comment, you know, you need to send him to Kenya, you know, those sort of things.
John Dehlin [02:42:46] Oh, wait a minute.
Joe Ngatia [02:42:48] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:42:48] Obama was. Was. His dad was Kenyan. Yes. Which you were Kenyan.
Joe Ngatia [02:42:53] Yes.
John Dehlin [02:42:54] And then I think even Donald Trump at the time, not to get political, but at the time, people were questioning whether Obama was born. Was born in Kenya, your country.
Joe Ngatia [02:43:04] Yes.
John Dehlin [02:43:05] Versus the United States.
Joe Ngatia [02:43:06] Yes. So it was hard for people to say mean thing about this Kenyan without
John Dehlin [02:43:11] taking it personal in front of you.
Joe Ngatia [02:43:13] And people, here they are now, you know, obviously the extreme, you know, right of the right.
John Dehlin [02:43:18] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:43:19] And so there are commentary, there are a lot of polemics. There were, you know, np with our, you know, in church will be couched as, you know, religious discussion.
John Dehlin [02:43:30] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:43:31] About, you know, such thing as, you know, the gospel, you know, like especially the run up towards the election. There's this belief that somehow the socialists had introduced this aboriginal thing to America, Obamacare. The Obamacare. And everything about Obama was horrible. It was abhorrent in the views of these people.
John Dehlin [02:43:51] People. Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:43:51] And here was a brethren of the priesthood who would save the nation at the brink, from the brink.
John Dehlin [02:43:57] This is the whole white horse prophecy that Mitt Romney. That. That a Mormon would save the Constitution as it hung by a thread.
Joe Ngatia [02:44:05] Yes.
John Dehlin [02:44:06] And people believe Mitt Romney was the fulfillment. Mormons believe that Mitt Romney might be the fulfillment of the white horse prophecy.
Joe Ngatia [02:44:13] Exactly. And you heard a lot of this, you know, know, in church setting, you know, people had views about, you know, this and it. And it's one thing people have a right to believe, whatever they will.
John Dehlin [02:44:26] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:44:26] But people don't always articulate their political opinion in polite ways. No.
John Dehlin [02:44:33] I remember people saying that Obama was of Satan, like politically, not even religiously. They would say Obama was of the devil or something like that.
Joe Ngatia [02:44:43] Absolutely. There are a lot of things that was said anything. And, you know, people, you know, term like microaggression didn't exist then. At least I didn't know them.
John Dehlin [02:44:51] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:44:52] But there was a very toxic environment. Going to church. I did not feel very comfortable, really. It was not a very comfortable environment.
John Dehlin [02:45:02] And probably most members were for Romney.
Joe Ngatia [02:45:06] Overwhelming.
John Dehlin [02:45:07] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [02:45:07] Overwhelming.
John Dehlin [02:45:08] And then you would see in Obama a black man and a. And a man of Kenyan descent.
Joe Ngatia [02:45:13] Absolutely.
John Dehlin [02:45:14] So did you feel torn about. Do I. Do I support Romney? Do I support Obama? Would you have.
Joe Ngatia [02:45:19] No, I. Absolutely. Yeah. That was a thing in my, you know, I think our introduction to Obama, of course, happened during that convention in, I think, 2004, when he gave that, you know, Democrat DNC.
John Dehlin [02:45:32] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:45:32] And absolutely. He was, you know, electrifying.
John Dehlin [02:45:36] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:45:36] And I remember going out, reading his memoir, I think it was called Dreams of My Father or something like that, and I was in love with a guy. I love the man, you know, there's no question about it. But I cannot say had any negative feeling towards Mitch Romney. I thought he was a remarkable guy.
John Dehlin [02:45:54] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:45:54] And so it was like, you know, it's either, you know, this brotherhood of blood and brotherhood of the sacrament, you know.
John Dehlin [02:46:01] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:46:02] And so for me, I think how I settled the issue, I felt like, you know, I've always felt like, you know, there was a lot more in common between me and my Obama.
John Dehlin [02:46:11] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:46:11] You know, at least in the political arena.
John Dehlin [02:46:13] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:46:13] Right. And presidents are political. They are not bishops. And so as far as how I resolve that, I think I loved Obama.
John Dehlin [02:46:22] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:46:23] Undoubtedly.
John Dehlin [02:46:24] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:46:24] And it hurt my feelings, you know, and maybe I'm being, you know, a snowflake, whatever. The fact that when I heard these people say certain things, because it's some critics of politicians, you cannot say certain things without offending a whole class of people.
John Dehlin [02:46:43] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:46:44] Because it's not just about the person. It's about any person who come from the same background.
John Dehlin [02:46:51] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:46:51] And so that was hard. And then, of course, you know, at the same time, you know, I guess when Mitt Romney lost, you'd have. You'd have thought some horrible cataclysm had happened, you know, in the church, you're saying. Yeah, the church. Yeah. I mean, general I. E. In the church, because that's how, you know, that's with whom I was interacting. There was a sudden sadness, you know, some proclamation where people felt, you know, the nation had chosen the devil over.
John Dehlin [02:47:24] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:47:25] You know.
John Dehlin [02:47:25] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:47:25] And so that kind of pushes you, because church is about fellowship. And if you feel there's no fellowship with the people, it's so much easier to find salvation elsewhere.
John Dehlin [02:47:36] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:47:36] You know.
John Dehlin [02:47:37] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:47:37] And so would. I think it's possible I would still have walked away from the church.
John Dehlin [02:47:45] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:47:46] But it would have. It was less likely to happen if I had lived in Kenya, where I did not have these, you know, I was put off to the side where I did not feel fully a member of the congregation.
John Dehlin [02:47:59] Oh.
Joe Ngatia [02:48:00] You know.
John Dehlin [02:48:00] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [02:48:00] And so that kind of, you know, in a way, that was a very. Was a strong push for me to keep asking myself, you know, resolving the conundrum between objective facts that I knew.
John Dehlin [02:48:15] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:48:16] And. And my beliefs, my continuing participation in the church.
John Dehlin [02:48:22] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:48:23] But I continue to be faithful. I, I, I really had the, the question of the burning in the bosom.
John Dehlin [02:48:30] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:48:30] I was never going to walk away from that.
John Dehlin [02:48:32] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:48:32] God had talked about me, and I was not gonna, you know, he had come through for me so many times.
John Dehlin [02:48:38] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:48:38] And if I am. And I had to go through this, I was gonna stay.
John Dehlin [02:48:41] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:48:43] And I continued, I suppose, even through, I think, in 2014, there was. The political situation got worse, which. The worst thing of the political. National. Political situation nationally, that is always reflected in the fellowship in the church.
John Dehlin [02:49:03] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:49:04] Because as the single person who doesn't share the belief, people feel more and more. They're in an echo chamber. They are more important to say things that are more and more uncomfortable.
John Dehlin [02:49:16] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:49:16] And at some point, I remember watching Cleveland Bundy. He was like a tea party guy. He was a Mormon high priest.
John Dehlin [02:49:27] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:49:28] Saying some really racist thing on tv, like, you said the Negro would be better off to stay a slave.
John Dehlin [02:49:34] Oh, man.
Joe Ngatia [02:49:34] You know, that's really the things he's saying. And I think this is my brother in the priesthood.
John Dehlin [02:49:39] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:49:40] And it's a little embarrassing as a human being to find yourself repeatedly walking into these things. And then I say to my wife, look, we believe in the church, but we don't believe in this social environment. So we quit going to church. We said, we're going to have home church.
John Dehlin [02:49:58] Well, Bundy was probably just quoting Brigham Young. Right.
Joe Ngatia [02:50:02] Most likely. I mean, his beliefs were not far removed from historical Mormon position.
John Dehlin [02:50:07] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:50:08] He could have been quoting Ezra Top Benson.
John Dehlin [02:50:10] Right.
Joe Ngatia [02:50:10] Who went about the country saying that civil rights movement was a Trojan horse for communism.
John Dehlin [02:50:16] Right.
Joe Ngatia [02:50:17] So he could have been. He was not off base. He had, you know, he had. Had this. A framework for him to say these things.
John Dehlin [02:50:26] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:50:26] And they were supported doctrinally in the church.
John Dehlin [02:50:29] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:50:29] And so we felt like, you know, I wasn't ready to, you know, I was not happy in the environment. I needed to move out of this context.
John Dehlin [02:50:37] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:50:37] And so I said, well, I'll tell you what, I remember way back when I blessed my own sacrament, I was, had my own congregation when I was, you know, I can have a church right now. I have you. We have now this time we have two kids. No, we had a third baby. You know, we had three kids at this time. We said we're going to have our own church at home, you know, so we stopped going to church.
John Dehlin [02:51:00] Oh, wow.
Joe Ngatia [02:51:01] Oh, yes. We start having, we still read from church manuals.
John Dehlin [02:51:05] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:51:05] We taught our kids from home. We woke up every Sunday dressed up.
John Dehlin [02:51:09] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:51:10] And then when tithing came, I put my, I got enough envelope to send my tithing to church and offerings.
John Dehlin [02:51:15] Wow.
Joe Ngatia [02:51:16] And then, but then there was going to be a problem with this arrangement, you know.
John Dehlin [02:51:20] Well, yeah, because the church doesn't like people doing that. That's why I was surprised when I heard you could give yourself the sacrament back home. Because my memory is you had to have bishop's approval to ever bless the sacrament outside of sacrament meeting. Exactly. Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:51:35] But back in Kenya was different in America. The church was down the road from me.
John Dehlin [02:51:39] You weren't even endowed as a missionary, know. Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:51:43] So now here I am in Bismarck having home church, you know, and the boys were very happy. We have three sons and they were absolutely happy. They didn't like church.
John Dehlin [02:51:54] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:51:54] And so, but then the promise came in 2015, because my firstborn was turning 8.
John Dehlin [02:52:02] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:52:03] Now what are you gonna do? You can't baptize in my home.
John Dehlin [02:52:05] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:52:06] And so, I mean, you could, but you could, but I wouldn't count. So Vicki and I say, well, you know, we have to go to church. We have to, you know, I in, I still believe baptism was essential for his well being.
John Dehlin [02:52:18] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:52:19] And I did not want him to be my spiritual hostage. And so he said, well, we dressed up, I believe in January of 2014. We went to the ward and I, the moment we came back, you know, people, you know, were friendly enough, you know, and then the bishop said, you know, I need to meet with you. You, you know, and the bishop said, you know, I, I, I realize you have genuine, sincere questions. We're gonna have arrangement every Sunday after church. You and I will sit down and you can ask me any question you wish.
John Dehlin [02:52:53] Had you tried to talk to a bishop or stake president before?
Joe Ngatia [02:52:56] I had always tried.
John Dehlin [02:52:58] Oh.
Joe Ngatia [02:52:58] From the time I remember, the first time I brought the issue was when I was a medical student here in the past Valley you know, in Utah, and there's, you know, well, this is the past. Don't worry. You know, that's how I went. Yes. But now the bishop realized he was serious, had left the church for quite some time.
John Dehlin [02:53:16] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:53:16] And he said he would like to discuss these issues. And he was. There was no topic out of bound.
John Dehlin [02:53:21] Oh, wow.
Joe Ngatia [02:53:22] I could talk to him.
John Dehlin [02:53:23] He said, okay.
Joe Ngatia [02:53:24] And now I was, you know, I was very emboldened and I felt like for my own sake, I had to be candid and honest.
John Dehlin [02:53:30] Honest.
Joe Ngatia [02:53:31] And I remember when all over this issue, one by one, you know.
John Dehlin [02:53:37] Did you just say you were important?
Joe Ngatia [02:53:39] Yeah, you.
John Dehlin [02:53:40] Because you were the issue.
Joe Ngatia [02:53:41] Why these issues were important? Oh, the issues were, yes, because I felt like it was very important to me. Because in the sense, like, you know, it's not just an issue you could brush off, it had kicked, you know. Of course. Yes. So I felt this was important.
John Dehlin [02:53:55] Did you feel like the bishop have felt like you were an important person?
Joe Ngatia [02:54:00] I mean. Yeah. That, you know, they treat me respect.
John Dehlin [02:54:02] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:54:03] You know, I. I feel at least as a human being. Okay, good.
John Dehlin [02:54:08] Okay. So. So you talk to him about which issues.
Theological Doubts and the Priesthood Ban
Joe Ngatia [02:54:13] But first of all, foremost, the, the, the theological racism. To me, that was always going to be the starting point.
John Dehlin [02:54:20] Yeah. Okay.
Joe Ngatia [02:54:21] I say, you know, I did not make sense to me that for 130 years we preached the black people who are unworthy, regardless of their choices.
John Dehlin [02:54:32] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:54:33] Could now be ordained to the priesthood.
John Dehlin [02:54:35] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:54:36] And they were unworthy of being. And then he said, well, look, Joe, as long as the kingdom of God has been on the earth, even back in the old days, only the Levites could have the priesthood.
John Dehlin [02:54:50] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:54:50] You know, because that's the argument. I said, well, but that's different in the sense, like, that's having a chosen group.
John Dehlin [02:54:56] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:54:57] But this is a person unchosen. You know, this is a group unchosen. Not to receive something that's a different. This is a.
John Dehlin [02:55:04] And it's based on skin color.
Joe Ngatia [02:55:05] Exactly.
John Dehlin [02:55:06] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:55:07] And so it went on and I brought every issue, the hierographic translation, I brought all these issues.
John Dehlin [02:55:13] So you brought up the book of Abraham.
Joe Ngatia [02:55:14] Abraham, yes.
John Dehlin [02:55:15] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [02:55:16] And I was gonna lay it all out there on the table for him to go through. And we went through this and eventually he's. He couldn't answer my questions. And he said, he said, okay, I'm gonna, you know, he called my bluff, more or less. He said, look, Joe, are you now telling me if you knew the issues, you know, today, the day before you were baptized? Are you telling me you're not joining the church?
John Dehlin [02:55:38] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:55:39] And for the first time, you know, the discussion had always been theoretical, academic, Right?
John Dehlin [02:55:47] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:55:48] But really, he's pretty much. I mean, you either you put up or you shut up. More or less.
John Dehlin [02:55:53] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:55:54] Because if you are gonna argue this point, there has to be a logical conclusion to your questions.
John Dehlin [02:56:02] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:56:02] What are you gonna do about it?
John Dehlin [02:56:04] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:56:05] And I remember it just stung. It's just like. Are you now telling me you will not join this church if you knew these things? And I had to look deep within myself, and I remember. And I said, well. And I went over the issue. Eva knew that the Lord had said we were cursed. Eva knew that there were no. The descendants of Nephi were not true. He's all right. Eva knew that Joseph Smith had made up the translation of the book of Abraham. No, I wouldn't have joined the church. You wouldn't have, I said. I told him, no, I wouldn't have.
John Dehlin [02:56:43] Because that makes him a false prophet.
Joe Ngatia [02:56:45] Well, because all those things, you'd have to walk over a mountain of falsehood in order for you to say, I know this to be true.
John Dehlin [02:56:52] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:56:53] So I told him I wouldn't have joined the church.
John Dehlin [02:56:54] Oh, yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:56:55] But even when I say that, there was always a catching within yourself because it's that warm burning in the bosom you have to make sense of with. You know, because I still had that burning in the bosom question in my head to make sense of.
John Dehlin [02:57:07] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:57:08] And, you know, when I said I wouldn't have joined the church, he pretty much said, well, I don't know how I can help you.
John Dehlin [02:57:14] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:57:15] You just need to continue reading and praying and fasting.
John Dehlin [02:57:18] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:57:19] I realize your son is now the age of accountability. I'm not going to keep you from baptizing him, but if you want, I can find a worthy brother to baptize your son.
John Dehlin [02:57:30] Meaning you were unworthy.
Joe Ngatia [02:57:31] More or less. It's a polite way of saying this.
John Dehlin [02:57:34] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:57:35] But I thought, you know, that would be a surrender, and I'm not into surrendering. And I thought, you know, I. I said, let me go think about it. And I found a workaround. I said if I took my son to Kenya, I baptized him in the same war, the same building I was. But at least it will serve the purpose of connecting me, you know, at least my journey with his journey. Right.
John Dehlin [02:57:57] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:57:58] And that's what I decided. I said, well, could you interview him, make sure he's worthy? And I'll fly to Kenya and baptize him and he Said, well, that's okay with me.
John Dehlin [02:58:07] So he wouldn't have let you baptize your son in South Dakota, but he would let you baptize your son in Canada?
Joe Ngatia [02:58:13] No, he said he would not stop me from baptizing.
John Dehlin [02:58:16] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [02:58:16] He said, if you want to baptize your son, I will not stop you from doing it. But if you don't feel, you know, like. But I can also find out a word about brother.
John Dehlin [02:58:24] Got it.
Joe Ngatia [02:58:24] Right.
John Dehlin [02:58:25] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [02:58:25] And so you gave me permission. I could go to Kenya. And you were.
John Dehlin [02:58:29] You were more willing to baptize your son in Kenya.
Joe Ngatia [02:58:32] I wanted to baptize in Kenya because
John Dehlin [02:58:34] it had a connection to you.
Joe Ngatia [02:58:35] Yeah. It had a historical meaning.
John Dehlin [02:58:37] But you still didn't believe necessarily it was God's baptism. Or did you?
Joe Ngatia [02:58:43] I still hadn't resolved the fundamental conundrum, which is that burning. If I. If there was no burning anyway. In any bosom.
John Dehlin [02:58:50] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:58:51] This problem might have been resolved a long time ago.
John Dehlin [02:58:53] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:58:54] I still believe that it was necessary for his well being.
John Dehlin [02:58:57] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [02:58:58] Baptized. But I still did not know how he would ever cross this chasm between fact.
John Dehlin [02:59:06] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:59:07] And, you know, practice.
John Dehlin [02:59:09] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:59:09] And so. But something happened just before we went to Kenya. This, I believe, was, like, in. In June when he got permission. He turned 8 in January. He was still not baptized.
John Dehlin [02:59:20] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:59:21] And of course, he could not go Kenya until summertime.
John Dehlin [02:59:24] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [02:59:25] Because of school. But before we left, sometime in July of that year, I get a car out of nowhere, and guess who's on the phone. Hello. This is eldest Joseph Sitati.
John Dehlin [02:59:37] That's the guy we just talked about.
Joe Ngatia [02:59:39] Yes.
John Dehlin [02:59:40] The Kenyan general Authority.
Joe Ngatia [02:59:41] Yes. He was you a member of the first quorum of the 70s.
John Dehlin [02:59:44] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [02:59:44] I am coming through Montana. I'll pass through North Dakota.
John Dehlin [02:59:48] Whoa.
Joe Ngatia [02:59:50] Do you mind if I stay over to you in your house? I'm like, great. I'd love to. Now my questions would have a real answer, you know, And I thought, you know, I was gonna ask this question to him. This guy is, you know, he has access to the highest qualms of the church.
John Dehlin [03:00:08] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:00:08] Probably the most hidden doctrines, whatever.
John Dehlin [03:00:11] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:00:12] And so I thought, you know. Yes. If you understand. He said, could I stay over there overnight? I said. I said, you can, say for a week. So they drive over to our house. And, of course, eventually I have a chance to sit with him, you know, just him and I. I said, you know, brother Sitati have been going through a lot of struggles, you know, and something to do with some questions, you know, gospel questions. Oh, bring it on. You know, and then I say, when one after, you know, the racist. I mean, this, you know, in the doctrine. He said, you know, well, you. You should bless those who curse you. You know, that's pretty. He said, you know, like, you know, the curse, the history of the curse. He said, Jesus said, you must bless those who curse you.
John Dehlin [03:00:56] Oh, you know, so. So basically turn the other cheek.
Joe Ngatia [03:01:01] Yes.
John Dehlin [03:01:02] And bless the white Mormon leaders that cursed you.
Joe Ngatia [03:01:06] Yes. He said, you should bless those who curse you.
John Dehlin [03:01:09] That's a weird turn on that teaching.
Joe Ngatia [03:01:12] And it was. It was like, for him, it was so easy. It was as easy as breathing.
John Dehlin [03:01:17] Wow. And it's scriptural.
Joe Ngatia [03:01:19] Yes.
John Dehlin [03:01:20] And Jesus said it.
Joe Ngatia [03:01:21] Jesus said it. And he said, joe, you know, I think you get carried away the wrong questions here. You should bless those who curse you. You know, and now, wow.
John Dehlin [03:01:31] Never heard that. Never heard that before.
Joe Ngatia [03:01:33] Yes. And that. He said, but I was not going to let it go. I had more questions.
John Dehlin [03:01:37] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [03:01:38] I say, so brother Sitatio. No, they saw. So, yeah, I'm glad. You know, this is question about the Native American not being descendant of Israelites
John Dehlin [03:01:49] in the Book of Mormon. Yeah, yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:01:50] And I say. You say all of them. I say, yeah, all of them from Alaska to Argentina. There's no a shred of evidence that that's true.
John Dehlin [03:01:58] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:01:59] We have technology today, molecularized genealogy. You can find our have on specific clocks, you know, locations on your genetics, why your ancestors came from. No one among them come from the Middle East. I'm not even saying they're not Jewish. I'm saying they're not Middle Eastern whatsoever. Yeah, we know they come from, you know, Euro Asia.
John Dehlin [03:02:19] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:02:21] And he said, well, I have to look at that. You know.
John Dehlin [03:02:24] He said he hadn't heard of that.
Joe Ngatia [03:02:26] Yeah. He said, I've never heard of that. And I say, okay, that's fine. What about this translation on the hieroglyphic in the Book of Abraham? And then I explained that. He said, I have to look at that too.
John Dehlin [03:02:38] He hadn't heard of that.
Joe Ngatia [03:02:40] Yes. At least that's how he came across.
John Dehlin [03:02:43] Interesting. And this is 2015, so 10 years ago, by this point, CES letter had come out.
Joe Ngatia [03:02:49] Yep.
John Dehlin [03:02:49] I had been excommunicated.
Joe Ngatia [03:02:51] Right.
John Dehlin [03:02:52] For sharing a lot of podcasts about these topics.
Joe Ngatia [03:02:55] Right.
John Dehlin [03:02:55] And most importantly, the gospel topics essays that come out. Right. That included one on the Book of Abraham.
Joe Ngatia [03:03:01] Yes.
John Dehlin [03:03:01] And there was one on race in the priesthood. Now, had you read the gospel topics essay on race in the priesthood?
Joe Ngatia [03:03:07] I did.
John Dehlin [03:03:08] Really quickly. How did you experience that when you read it?
Joe Ngatia [03:03:13] Well, to me, it came across as the explanations I've always. I had always received previously.
John Dehlin [03:03:19] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:03:20] It's a nice way to shift your focus. It's a way of, you know, reframing the question. You say, well, mistakes may have been made, but it does not distract from the fundamental truthfulness of this gospel.
John Dehlin [03:03:37] Right.
Joe Ngatia [03:03:38] So I did not take it. I never would have. I did not feel. I was not persuaded. I felt like it did not answer the fundamental question. They went around the topic, but they did not address it.
John Dehlin [03:03:51] Seems like it said something like. Like we don't know why God did it. So basically blamed it on God.
Joe Ngatia [03:03:55] Right.
John Dehlin [03:03:56] And then it said these men, these prophets, like Brigham Young were products of their time. Right. And that it wasn't doctrine, it was policy. That's my memory of.
Joe Ngatia [03:04:06] Yeah. I would. I have to agree. That's more or less. And I felt like, to me, it was not answering the fundamental question here. If you're gonna claim that the prophet is a mouthpiece of God.
John Dehlin [03:04:19] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:04:19] On the earth, you do not have the luxury to then say it's a. This is a product of. Of his time.
John Dehlin [03:04:27] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:04:27] Because, well, God is. Has no time.
John Dehlin [03:04:30] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:04:30] You know, God has to stay ahead of the times.
John Dehlin [03:04:34] Doesn't change.
Joe Ngatia [03:04:35] So you cannot have that. You don't get the last to say those things. You have to address the issue. You cannot walk around the issue.
John Dehlin [03:04:43] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:04:44] So either. And then, of course, it did not address. You remember. And I'm sure you. You know, I remember reading about a guy, Larry Nelson.
John Dehlin [03:04:56] Yeah. Larry Nelson's a legend.
Joe Ngatia [03:04:58] Yes. And I remember reading his. His correspondence with the first presidency from the late 1940s. 1940s. Yeah. He was a professor of sociology. He had very good understanding of the nature of race. Right. He had interaction with intelligent black people.
John Dehlin [03:05:19] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:05:19] And his main point of contention is you're telling me these brilliant people, less than any white person, however low you find him.
John Dehlin [03:05:30] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:05:30] On the basis of color.
John Dehlin [03:05:32] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:05:33] And I remember one of the things that stood out in that whole interaction was the fact that. That the brethren say these are not just a matter of, you know, policy. Right. This is something to do this. The word of God, more or less.
John Dehlin [03:05:48] No, no, no. I mean. Yeah. If I remember right. And this is all covered in Matt Harris's Second Class Saints book. And on our 17 part series with Matt Harris, we have a full episode, I think, on Lowry Nelson. We'll include it in the show notes. It's very important essay, if I'm remembering right. I think he was an expert of Cuba.
Joe Ngatia [03:06:08] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:06:10] Or someone Else was there was a
Joe Ngatia [03:06:11] person, a friend of his.
John Dehlin [03:06:12] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [03:06:13] Wanted to open a branch of church in Cuba.
John Dehlin [03:06:16] Right.
Joe Ngatia [03:06:16] And he sent Laurie Nelson.
John Dehlin [03:06:18] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:06:19] A letter say, is there. Are there groups of pure white who don't have any intermingling with the Negro?
John Dehlin [03:06:24] Where can we find the white people in Cuba? So we can only baptize the white Cubans.
Joe Ngatia [03:06:29] Yeah. And more or less say that would be a great disservice to that community. And he disagrees with us.
John Dehlin [03:06:35] You know, there's no such thing as no one having a drop of African blood. Exactly. Like, he knows that in the late 1940s, the Brigham Young's one drop rule. Yes. That you can't baptize anybody that has at least even one drop of. Of African blood.
Joe Ngatia [03:06:50] Yes.
John Dehlin [03:06:51] He's like, that's all of us. We all have.
Joe Ngatia [03:06:53] Right.
John Dehlin [03:06:53] At least one drop of African blood. Right.
Joe Ngatia [03:06:55] Yes, indeed.
John Dehlin [03:06:56] Humans descend from Africa. Right. And Nari Nelson knows this in the 1940s.
Joe Ngatia [03:07:01] Yes.
John Dehlin [03:07:02] Right.
Joe Ngatia [03:07:02] And the beauty of it is if he forces the first presidency to say very categorical things about the policy, he
John Dehlin [03:07:11] puts them on notice. He educates the first presidency.
Joe Ngatia [03:07:15] Exactly.
John Dehlin [03:07:16] And. And, and David O. McKay was president by this point, right?
Joe Ngatia [03:07:19] Yes, yes. And he says, you know, the first President. To me, that thing that stood out to me the most is like the first president more or less says, this is not just. I think we came up with, yeah, it come from God.
John Dehlin [03:07:31] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:07:32] This. So. So even though later we would say, you know, we, you know, this is human policies.
John Dehlin [03:07:37] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:07:38] But that's not really what you get from the interaction of Larry Nelson with the David Omar cape first presidency.
John Dehlin [03:07:45] No. In fact, the. The David O. McKay issued a commission to study it. He ignored the results of the commission and he signed a first presidency statement affirming that the priesthood ban was doctrinal.
Joe Ngatia [03:08:00] Right.
John Dehlin [03:08:00] And it was signed by the First Presidency.
Joe Ngatia [03:08:02] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:08:03] So you can't have the first Presidency sign a statement saying it's doctrinal and then in 2015 come out with an essay that says it was just opinion.
Joe Ngatia [03:08:11] Exactly.
John Dehlin [03:08:12] I don't think.
Joe Ngatia [03:08:13] Yeah. There's a huge disconnect, you know, and that's why, you know, that, you know, race and priesthood, you know, essay would not have tried it was. It came across as being disingenuous.
John Dehlin [03:08:23] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:08:24] The only way you can come up with those conclusion is by picking and choosing, cherry picking the evidence. Yeah. And then choosing what stands your position best.
John Dehlin [03:08:32] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:08:32] And so I.
John Dehlin [03:08:33] And ultimately blaming God for it. Basically saying, we don't know why God did it.
Joe Ngatia [03:08:37] Yes.
John Dehlin [03:08:38] God Was racist, I guess. Absolutely.
Joe Ngatia [03:08:40] You know, he has not woken up to reality. That's really very difficult. Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:08:46] So you're talking to Joseph Satati about that.
Joe Ngatia [03:08:50] Yes. And so he takes my, you know, he said, well, some of these questions, I need to go study them out. And I was.
John Dehlin [03:08:57] Which, can I just say it's mind blowing that he's a general authority. He's African.
Joe Ngatia [03:09:02] Right.
John Dehlin [03:09:03] It's 2015, the gospel topics essays are out and he's not prepared to answer your questions.
Joe Ngatia [03:09:09] And you can understand why. Right. Like when you're in the church. Like when I was in the church, whenever I received as a mission, for example, when you received a question or an issue that did not stand the church in good light, you found a way to deflect it.
John Dehlin [03:09:25] Right.
Joe Ngatia [03:09:26] Because really you are fully in it. Your job is to make the church look good all the time.
John Dehlin [03:09:31] Time. Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:09:31] And so I can see why, you know, was it abstine? You know, there was a guy who was a congressman from Illinois way back when and he says, you know, if a man is paid not to understand something, you can never get him to understand it.
John Dehlin [03:09:46] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:09:46] You know, and that's really what it comes down to. He would not have understood this just like any other general authority.
John Dehlin [03:09:53] Okay. Yes. Oh, that's true. And that's the human. That's the. A fair, reasonable, compassionate perspective on why he wouldn't understand it. There's another perspective that I think is reasonable.
Joe Ngatia [03:10:07] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:10:08] What does general authority mean? General authority means you have the authority to speak generally for the church. So not to blame this guy. Not to blame, obviously, Joseph Satati.
Joe Ngatia [03:10:24] Right.
John Dehlin [03:10:25] But you would think that the church would, especially after it's released the gospel topics essays, it would sit all the, quote, general authorities down and say, you represent the church.
Joe Ngatia [03:10:35] Right.
John Dehlin [03:10:35] Let's educate you about all these things. So, you know, the official, you know, the questions you're going to get, you know, the official answer. And you can represent the church as a general authority. Right.
Joe Ngatia [03:10:49] I would agree.
John Dehlin [03:10:50] I don't need to be mean or unkind.
Joe Ngatia [03:10:52] No, it is true.
John Dehlin [03:10:53] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:10:53] That you ought to be the most fluent in these matters.
John Dehlin [03:10:56] Yes.
Joe Ngatia [03:10:57] You know, nobody ought to be ahead of you.
John Dehlin [03:10:59] No.
Joe Ngatia [03:11:00] But it's generally true. Like most general authorities, they are pretty coy in con, you know, controversial topics. They'll find a way to walk around it.
John Dehlin [03:11:09] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:11:09] You know, I think that's the first, you know, training they get how to avoid controversies.
John Dehlin [03:11:14] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:11:15] Yes.
John Dehlin [03:11:16] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:11:16] Yeah. So, you know, he takes my email and then and he said, you know, I'm Gonna go rook up these topics and when I get to, you know, conclusive evidence, I will send you an email.
John Dehlin [03:11:31] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [03:11:33] That's 10 years ago. I'm waiting.
John Dehlin [03:11:35] Oh my goodness. So you never got an email from him?
Joe Ngatia [03:11:38] Yeah, and I probably. He got busy, but. No, but this is, he's.
John Dehlin [03:11:42] This is Kenya. You're from Kenya.
Joe Ngatia [03:11:45] I have never of heard hard from him.
John Dehlin [03:11:46] That's like Jeremy Reynolds. He writes the CS letter to the CS instructor and he never gets a letter back.
Joe Ngatia [03:11:53] I never ever have heard from him.
John Dehlin [03:11:55] That's. If I were a Kenyan General authority, I would take the question of a fellow Kenyan Latter Day Saint who was a doctor. I would take that very personally. And I would make. I would like to think. And I'm not shaming him, right. Because I think I can get why he would feel uncomfortable or want to forget that this exchange happened. But I would think that I would feel especially desirous to answer the question of a fellow Kenyan physician who came to me feeling confused. So I'm surprised. Yes.
Joe Ngatia [03:12:34] You've never heard from him? I'm yet to hear. Maybe he's still working on the questions.
John Dehlin [03:12:39] Is he still a general authority?
Joe Ngatia [03:12:41] No, I think he's Emirates.
John Dehlin [03:12:42] Okay. He's. He's no longer.
LGBTQ Issues and Resignation from the Church
Joe Ngatia [03:12:44] Yeah, he's the retired, I think.
John Dehlin [03:12:45] Okay. Well, I don't mean to pick on him.
Joe Ngatia [03:12:47] No, no, absolutely, I understand. But you know, it's an important topic and I would think you would have. I expected to hear at least, you know, these, at the very least to hear these are not important questions. You need to focus your efforts elsewhere. But I never heard any of that. So that is. So that was in 2015.
John Dehlin [03:13:07] Oh.
Joe Ngatia [03:13:08] And then at this point, you know, I'm still like, you know, it's one thing initially I. Even knowledge has levels to it. Right. So when you first read about even race and priesthood, you know very little. You have a superficial knowledge.
John Dehlin [03:13:27] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:13:27] But over time the whole structure of knowledge gets very wide. And so now I'm having to balance something. I'm like carrying this thing. I in intellectually, I think I had left the church. I'm only holding on on the basis of my former experiences. I think the last straw for me was during the. The April conference in 2016.
John Dehlin [03:13:58] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [03:14:00] That's when the church. I gave an automatum. You could not baptize the children of gay people.
John Dehlin [03:14:10] Okay. So it was November 2015 where the policy came out.
Joe Ngatia [03:14:14] Yes.
John Dehlin [03:14:15] And then a couple months later, President Nelson had just passed away. Would have made some statement at byu. Hawaii, I think.
Joe Ngatia [03:14:24] Yes.
John Dehlin [03:14:24] That it was doctrine.
Joe Ngatia [03:14:25] Right.
John Dehlin [03:14:26] And so it comes up in April of 2016.
Joe Ngatia [03:14:28] Yes. So around that period, to the end of 2015, early 2016.
John Dehlin [03:14:33] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:14:34] And it just returned me back to Laurie Nelson. I thought, you know, this person was brave enough to fight for people who were not him.
John Dehlin [03:14:45] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:14:45] Like he took.
John Dehlin [03:14:46] He was white.
Joe Ngatia [03:14:47] Yeah. He was a white man.
John Dehlin [03:14:48] He was fighting for black people.
Joe Ngatia [03:14:49] Feeling very deeply about black people.
John Dehlin [03:14:52] Yeah. Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:14:52] And I thought, I'm not gay. But really, is it just for you to say children, little innocent children. Children.
John Dehlin [03:15:00] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:15:01] We have always preached children. Our response for the sins of their father. If you see homosexual as a sin.
John Dehlin [03:15:06] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:15:07] But now we have gone that far to say, well, these kids, you know, they're culpable for this crime of their parents.
John Dehlin [03:15:15] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:15:16] And it struck me because of where I was at the time. It struck me as rather. It was difficult for me to process that. I felt like we had moved way past this sort of, of general declaration they were heartless. And I think at that point I realized this whole project was not going to work. So I had to find my spiritual fulfillment elsewhere, you know, and of course, this is just, you know, this is. This was just the tip of the iceberg. But at this point, I was done with the church.
John Dehlin [03:15:48] Oh, had you come, had you concluded by this point in 2016 that maybe being gay wasn't bad or sinful or not?
Joe Ngatia [03:16:02] I had gay friend during medical school residency. One of my best friend in medical school. She was a Utah. A Utah girl that was married to a woman. Yes. She grew up, you know, sweet, you know, she was one of the genuinely kind people. And I remember saying, well, her name was Joe too, too, you know, And I remember talking to Johan. I say, when did you decide you were gay? And she was educating me.
John Dehlin [03:16:30] When did you decide you were black?
Joe Ngatia [03:16:32] I know. And, and she was very kind to a person who was rather ignorant in a lot of things, you know. And, you know, that's not the first time I knew about surety, obviously. But she told me how she had grown up in the church and the struggle she had about who she was.
John Dehlin [03:16:48] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:16:49] Deep down, herself, myself. And I could never take it for granted. So I had a context to put the gay fight right. I could always have joy in my mind. Right. And so I had. And so I. In a deep way, I did not feel that was right.
John Dehlin [03:17:09] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:17:09] And, and, and I don't know whether I was gay friendly the way I would like a person who has grown up with gay people would be.
John Dehlin [03:17:18] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:17:19] By the very least, it struck me as peculiarly unusual that the church would come up with a policy to punish innocent children.
John Dehlin [03:17:27] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:17:28] Who are children of? Gay people? Whoever. Whatever you felt about gay people.
John Dehlin [03:17:33] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:17:34] Children were out of question. You could not touch it. Yeah. Right.
John Dehlin [03:17:37] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:17:38] And so I'm not gonna pretend I was fully, you know, aware of issues of sexuality and all, but I knew that it was peculiarly wrong to punish children for whatever you felt their parents were doing.
John Dehlin [03:17:55] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:17:56] And so because, you know, you thought, you know, there have been all sort of, you know, bad people in the church. Right. There were militia men who did awful things. You never at one point say, the children of these people cannot be baptized.
John Dehlin [03:18:08] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:18:09] You know, and so it, it struck me as, you know, and maybe that was just the tip of the iceberg, considering what else I had been going through for many years. So at this point, it was like the last straw and I, I was done.
John Dehlin [03:18:23] Yeah. I guess you would be particularly sensitive to exclusion.
Joe Ngatia [03:18:28] Absolutely. Yes. Because that's really the issue that had dragged me this far.
John Dehlin [03:18:32] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:18:32] You know, and so, so it just struck me as. It felt very viscerally wrong, you know, and I stopped wearing my temple garment, you know, that spring. And it took a while before we decided we were done with the church. You know, it was not until 2017 that we wrote our letter to this church to remove our names of the records.
John Dehlin [03:18:56] Oh, wow.
Joe Ngatia [03:18:57] Yes.
John Dehlin [03:18:57] So why did you take that extra step to resign from the church? Why don't you just leave your names on the roll?
Joe Ngatia [03:19:03] Because I felt that was cowardly. It felt like a half measure. If you're gonna do something you needed to do it properly, you need to do officially. I did not want to be. I was not less active.
John Dehlin [03:19:13] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:19:14] I had a fundamental disagreement with the church at so many levels. Yeah, right. Historically, theologically. And so I said, we had a lot of discussion and my wife was a little hesitant because she didn't want to break her parents heart. My. My mom's heart. You know, my mom is still pretty active. Her parents were still active.
John Dehlin [03:19:33] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:19:34] But I say, you know, we are not going to do half measures. Personally, I say, you don't have to do it, but I will do it.
John Dehlin [03:19:39] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:19:40] I just feel I not gonna give my number. I'm not gonna. I'm not a nominal supporter at the very least of these things that, you know, have disconcerting. And so in, at the end of 2017, we officially resigned. You know, know our membership, they send us a letter, told us, you know, our names have been taken out and so that was that.
John Dehlin [03:20:07] Wow.
Joe Ngatia [03:20:08] Then.
John Dehlin [03:20:08] Oh, go ahead.
Joe Ngatia [03:20:09] Yeah. And I. I forgot to mention when we were doing home church, that's when we discovered Mormon stories. So. And that was a breath of fresh air because in the sense, like, there was this community. It wasn't in the open in. Of course, it. I don't know how we found wanted. I think it's through Facebook and the lady from Florida who had raised, you know, who was going through the faith crisis. I think there was something to do with that Facebook thing, you know, and that's how we found moment stories.
John Dehlin [03:20:40] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:20:40] And there was a place where people were having honest, genuine, you know, discussions, and they were not emotional, you know, because it's one thing to have a discussion with people at any. Angry. Yeah, you can't listen to that too much. But these were people having a well constructed rebut to a lot of things. Historical questions, you know, the church had raised. And. And we really appreciated that.
John Dehlin [03:21:04] Do you mean the Mormon stories podcast, Facebook group? Is that what you mean or.
Joe Ngatia [03:21:08] No, we were listening to you on the Internet.
John Dehlin [03:21:10] Okay, got it.
Joe Ngatia [03:21:11] And. But we discovered it through Facebook.
John Dehlin [03:21:14] Got it.
Joe Ngatia [03:21:14] Yes. Yeah. But we started listening to, you know, when we were doing home church. Eventually we drifted toward this space in which we could hear people who are sincere in the, you know, the same questions we had.
John Dehlin [03:21:27] Mormon story didn't cause you to lose your faith, though.
Joe Ngatia [03:21:29] No, no. We already, I mean, as I mentioned, I had been walking that path for many, many years.
John Dehlin [03:21:34] We get accused of causing people to lose their faith.
Joe Ngatia [03:21:37] If anything, it confirmed what I already knew.
John Dehlin [03:21:40] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:21:41] And if anything, it gave me a community.
John Dehlin [03:21:45] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:21:45] Of, you know, because you easily get gaslighted in certain spaces where you feel like you're the only person you feel like, you know, you're told you're making too much of a big deal out of little things. But in Mormon story, you have a platform in which people who are serious and sincere.
John Dehlin [03:22:02] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:22:03] Are discussing in depth the same questions you have. And so that was good for me.
John Dehlin [03:22:09] I mean, I guess from the church's perspective, that's evil to normalize a faith crisis to make it. To make you feel like you're not bad, you're not dirty, you're not broken, and that lots of people feel that way. I guess from the church's perspective, that's a bad thing that Mormon stories might do.
Joe Ngatia [03:22:25] I suppose the church would only wish that you went to them for answers to your question.
John Dehlin [03:22:30] Yeah. But I guess you tried that.
Joe Ngatia [03:22:33] But obviously that had. Did not work for me and not for Lack of trying. And I didn't just go to one person. I remember I had a brief meeting with a stake president in this valley before I finished medical school. School. And I raised the question and pretty much, you know, I never found satisfactory answers, you know.
John Dehlin [03:22:53] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:22:53] But I guess there was never going to be satisfaction. You cannot really make a donkey and a zebra, you know, you just have, you know, it's what it is, you know?
John Dehlin [03:23:03] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:23:03] Yeah. So.
John Dehlin [03:23:05] Yeah. Okay. I do have a couple questions that I have to ask. Yes. That. That I don't think they're going to be hard for you, but they would be hard for maybe some people. Like, there's two. There's two things that come to my mind. One is all the miracles that you told me you've experienced.
Joe Ngatia [03:23:31] Right.
John Dehlin [03:23:31] You're. You start out from Africa, but you're able to come to the United States to get your bachelor's degree at byu, Idaho, and then BYU Provo. You have these miracles that get you here. You have a church that has cheap university that makes it so you can afford it. You make friends, you make community. You have a sense of meaning and a purpose. And you have all these spiritual miracles that happen along the way, including that Book of Mormon witness.
Joe Ngatia [03:24:00] Yes.
John Dehlin [03:24:01] And then you have all these good people that give you loans, that help finance your medical school. Right. I'm just thinking. And you meet your wife and her beautiful parents and like. Like, there. There's a. There's a couple parts of the question. There's like, how could you have all these miracles and. And all these blessings and privileges and then walk away from it? Right. And that's. I have a couple other questions, but, like.
Joe Ngatia [03:24:30] Right.
John Dehlin [03:24:31] How do you. I. And I'm not trying to make you feel bad, but I mean, you can understand the question.
Joe Ngatia [03:24:35] No, I totally understand the question.
John Dehlin [03:24:36] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:24:37] Because that was. Was. And, you know, if they had been bought for those issues, would have been very easy to extricate myself. And the first time there was a bump on the road.
John Dehlin [03:24:48] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:24:48] Part of the reason I stay in the church so long.
John Dehlin [03:24:50] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:24:51] Because I believed deeply.
John Dehlin [03:24:53] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:24:54] That God was blessing me for my faithfulness to the church. Right.
John Dehlin [03:24:57] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:24:58] There was no doubt in my head.
John Dehlin [03:24:59] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:24:59] I believe this.
John Dehlin [03:25:00] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:25:01] And initially when I found these contradictions, I thought this was the devil inserting doubt to my faith, to my testimony. Right. And. And it took a whole mountain to move me. Right. Because it takes a lot believing as, you know, having those experience, believing as, you know, as having those spiritual experiences and having those miraculous experience. It's Hard to walk away from that. And so the question is, how could you walk away from. From it? First of all, there was no doubt towards the end that the issues, the falsehoods were truly verifiable. I had falsified the position like the claims the church had made, like upon I joined the church without proper understanding these questions. Right. If I had known these things as a bishop asked me once, would I have joined the church? And there has always been know. Right. I feel I was, in a way, I had walked into a situation I did not understand. Now the other question is, is it possible for people to find good people outside the construct of Mormonism? Right. Could has anybody ever had a life in which they had friends or they had, they were, they were able to find loans. There were co. Signs. Right. Was it possible for you to go through medical or school? Is it possible to find a wife without Mormonism? And the answer, of course is a resounding yes. Yes, yes, yes. That cannot be the reason you have to avoid, you know, you are moral respons. You know, you don't have to have intellectual dishonesty because of these experiences.
Life After Leaving and Personal Healing
John Dehlin [03:26:43] Catholics would help.
Joe Ngatia [03:26:44] Exactly.
John Dehlin [03:26:44] Refugees from, from Africa. Exactly. Evangelicals would.
Joe Ngatia [03:26:49] Yes.
John Dehlin [03:26:49] Jehovah's Witnesses probably would.
Joe Ngatia [03:26:51] Absolutely. Goodness can exist outside the construct of Mormonism. Right. Yeah. And so not to say like I'm not. I'm still very close with the people that. With like my friend who cosigned my alone who is still Mormon.
John Dehlin [03:27:04] Yeah. Oh yes.
Joe Ngatia [03:27:04] Oh yeah. He's still Mormon. He's a guy from Oregon. Right.
John Dehlin [03:27:07] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:27:08] We still meet at least once a year and we go camp together. We're still very good friend.
John Dehlin [03:27:13] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:27:14] And so it does not mean like, you know, unfortunately, sometime when you leave the church, some of your friends will never talk you to. To you.
John Dehlin [03:27:23] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:27:23] The good thing for him, he had our family member who left the church for similar reasons. And so it was easy for him to understand why somebody would leave the church now. But it's an important question you ask. Because I had, even after I left, I still had to resolve the question of the burning in the bosom.
John Dehlin [03:27:41] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:27:42] Because that is, you know, you can say the material situation, loans and success in the world, you cannot really equip that with a divine chance journey. Right. But the burning in the Buddhism, I had to make sense of this.
John Dehlin [03:27:54] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:27:55] And how I made sense. I. After I left the church, I immersed myself in serious, you know, study. Right. I had to really investigate like questions about spirituality. And I. It was by coincidence I was reading some Yogic literature about meditation. And as you read about meditation, they talk about, you know, when people meditate, they come to a point of when you have focus, single minded concentration. The ultimate end of that path is this luminous awareness. And if you read that, you know, like from thousands of years ago, how this is described, you'd almost feel like you're eating Alma. Burning in the bosom. Anybody who practice meditation, in fact, Mormons are often perplexed when they are eating other activities that are not faith promoting. Yeah, you can get that. Burning in the bosom.
John Dehlin [03:28:50] No, it's like I felt the spirit when I watched the Muppet movie in high school. Like I feel the spirit and I'm watching the Muppets.
Joe Ngatia [03:28:57] Yes. And it's about this. That's why if you do a deep concentration.
John Dehlin [03:29:02] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:29:02] Anybody who does meditation.
John Dehlin [03:29:04] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:29:04] Even now that I've left the church, I still have burning in the bosom.
John Dehlin [03:29:08] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:29:08] If I do my meditations.
John Dehlin [03:29:10] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:29:11] Or if you're hiking out there in nature in a beautiful awesome place.
John Dehlin [03:29:14] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:29:16] If you have single minded concentration, you will do or any breath work can you do, you know, meditation on breath, whatever, you're gonna have those experiences. And what the church had done, obviously is to take that and give it a religious meaning. Yeah, right. But it's not really a religious experience. Right. There are medications I could give you that, that would give you similar feelings. In fact,
John Dehlin [03:29:49] What's a medication that could, could duplicate the, the Holy Ghost, basically.
Joe Ngatia [03:29:54] Well, one of them is like if you. There's something called the psychedelic mushrooms, for example.
John Dehlin [03:29:59] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [03:30:00] So people who have psilocybin, they call them, if you take a silo, you know those, you can have a mythical experience from consuming those medications, you know those drugs, those substances. Right.
John Dehlin [03:30:12] Some people say psilocybin. Right?
Joe Ngatia [03:30:14] Yeah, Psilocybin. Yeah. Psychedelics. Yeah, yeah. And then the other thing is, you know, part of the surgeries we do, they are called awake craniotomies, whereby the patient is awake with part of their head open. Right. And you're putting electric probe direct into their head. Head, what is it? Into their brain.
John Dehlin [03:30:32] What's the medication?
Joe Ngatia [03:30:33] No, it's a surgical procedure. Awake craniotomy.
John Dehlin [03:30:37] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [03:30:37] While you open somebody's head.
John Dehlin [03:30:39] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:30:40] You put direct electrical trans stimulation in specific parts of the brain. And some place you can watch this on YouTube, some part the patient gets stimulated, has this amazing religious experience.
John Dehlin [03:30:55] Yeah, right.
Joe Ngatia [03:30:57] And then some parties team where you have a feeling of imminent doom. Oh, these are neuro circuitry. Oh, right.
John Dehlin [03:31:06] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:31:06] So and so. Yeah. You can have these experiences outside the construct of religious experiences. You know, and so, so I was able, you know, I. Down the road I was able to make sense of, you know, the burning in the bosom. And, and that was a huge relief for me because I felt like I had walked away from the testimony of the Holy Ghost for some time, you know, and until I came to make sense of that, that's something I struggled with. Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:31:37] So it sounds like you kind of logically deconstructed your spiritual experiences and the miracles you kind of logically be deconstructed.
Joe Ngatia [03:31:50] Well, the, the feelings. It's easy to deconstruct that.
John Dehlin [03:31:55] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:31:55] It's easy to put them in the proper place in nature. Those are natural experiences. Right. The brain is amazing. It can do a lot of things.
John Dehlin [03:32:04] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:32:04] You know, we don't, you know, the very idea of sentience consciousness is so complex.
John Dehlin [03:32:10] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:32:10] And what the brain can do.
John Dehlin [03:32:12] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:32:13] And what you can conceive is infinite.
John Dehlin [03:32:15] Right.
Joe Ngatia [03:32:16] And there's a lot of people who do neuroscience research and they can go into. But as far as miracles. Right. That one is easy to explain. I was, you know, the fact that I had a lot of good fortune in life. You know, you can read any number of books. Why people who are non Mormons have had equally, even much more miraculous, you know, outcomes in their life. Right. So you can find a lot of those books, you know, know Franco, Viktor, Franco survived the Holocaust.
John Dehlin [03:32:52] Yeah, right. Man's search for meaning.
Joe Ngatia [03:32:54] Exactly.
John Dehlin [03:32:55] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:32:55] You can read those, those kind of book. And you, you know, you get the idea that it's not unique to moments that people have miraculous experiences.
John Dehlin [03:33:04] He was Jewish.
Joe Ngatia [03:33:05] Yes. Yeah, exactly. And so if you could say, well, if everybody person, if everyone who has miraculous, what we call miraculous experience was Mormon, then you could say, well, you need to be Mormon in order to have them.
John Dehlin [03:33:16] Right.
Joe Ngatia [03:33:16] Right. But that's not true.
John Dehlin [03:33:18] Catholics have miracles.
Joe Ngatia [03:33:19] Buddhists have miracles.
John Dehlin [03:33:21] Right.
Joe Ngatia [03:33:22] Yeah. So anybody, anybody can have. The world is sometime has many graceful experiences and sometimes horrible experience that happened to good people.
John Dehlin [03:33:31] Yeah. You know, people in the embassy. Yes.
Joe Ngatia [03:33:34] They got blown up for no reason. Yeah. People right now who are starving and dying of hunger out of no fault of their own. Right.
John Dehlin [03:33:41] Yeah. So.
Joe Ngatia [03:33:42] Yes. So you can have both ways. But we focus in self affirming, doing that affirm our biases a lot. You know, I never, I could pick up all the terrible thing. And if I focus on them, I could say, well, this is, I've had a, I've had a horrendous life. But that's not true. If I pick up. If you pick up all the bad things that happen to you, you can tell the opposite story.
John Dehlin [03:34:07] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:34:08] Right. And then you can pick up on the good stuff. You tell a different story.
John Dehlin [03:34:11] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:34:12] So. But that's the journey of life.
John Dehlin [03:34:14] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:34:15] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:34:16] Okay, that makes sense. And you know, and, and you know, this isn't to be heavy handed. I'll just, it's just like to explore from different angles. But like, if I go through the list of. I'll just say church leaders of African descent, you know, there's Helvecchio Martins, there's Joseph Satati, there's Edward Dube, there's Peter M. Johnson, there's Ahmad Corbett, who's African American. There's Raymond Egbo, there's D. Martin Gory and I'm sure there's. And then there's many, just rank and file. Latter Day Saints.
Joe Ngatia [03:35:00] Right.
John Dehlin [03:35:00] Darius Gray.
Joe Ngatia [03:35:01] Right.
John Dehlin [03:35:02] You know, that were, that were black, many of them joined the church before the priesthood ban was lifted.
Joe Ngatia [03:35:09] Right.
John Dehlin [03:35:10] And many of them have heard all the issues and they either just say, I will not explain away the spiritual manifestations I've received.
Joe Ngatia [03:35:23] Right.
John Dehlin [03:35:23] Or they just say, whatever the intellect says this, I'm staying. I'm gonna ignore it. Or I'm gonna just rely on the feelings and just say, I'll put it on the shelf. I'll suspend final judgment. Too much good here.
Joe Ngatia [03:35:41] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:35:41] Too many good feelings. Can't walk away from it. Won't walk away from it. If anything, I'll just put it on the shelf. Intellectually, Yes. I guess lots of people do it.
Joe Ngatia [03:35:54] Yes.
John Dehlin [03:35:55] So why are they. Have you thought about how or why they're able to do it but you're not?
Joe Ngatia [03:36:01] I think part of it can be explained by their constitution. I think we constitute a very different. Like me, the human being associates is a social creature. Right.
John Dehlin [03:36:09] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:36:09] And so some people more so than others. Right?
John Dehlin [03:36:11] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:36:12] And some people put greater weight in their social interaction.
John Dehlin [03:36:16] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:36:17] As opposed to their intellectual life.
John Dehlin [03:36:18] Life.
Joe Ngatia [03:36:19] Right. There are people who live more in their head.
John Dehlin [03:36:21] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:36:21] And there are people who live in their heart. And I think that is part of it. Right. And so I suppose depending on the social environment in where you're living.
John Dehlin [03:36:34] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:36:34] It would have been. I'll admit it would have been very, very, very hard for me to leave the church, even never left Kenya.
John Dehlin [03:36:42] Yeah. Okay.
Joe Ngatia [03:36:43] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:36:44] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:36:45] It would have been. I would never become a black person.
John Dehlin [03:36:51] Right.
Joe Ngatia [03:36:52] And so these things would have remained remote to me in many ways.
John Dehlin [03:36:56] Right. You had to come To America to become a black person.
Joe Ngatia [03:36:58] Yeah. And so that's number one. It's like Eva lived in Africa forever.
John Dehlin [03:37:05] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:37:06] And I never became a black person. Reading the story of being cursed with a skin of blackness, becoming loathsome and all that.
John Dehlin [03:37:15] Like, that's not me.
Joe Ngatia [03:37:16] Yeah. It would have been a remote issue. I mean, it would have probably registered in my head, but not as strongly until you have social experiences.
John Dehlin [03:37:24] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:37:24] Where it becomes personal.
John Dehlin [03:37:25] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:37:26] These things are just distant.
John Dehlin [03:37:29] Well, yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:37:30] You can. You can easily explain them away. It's not. Yes. It's not your fight.
John Dehlin [03:37:35] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:37:36] It's easy to say that.
John Dehlin [03:37:37] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:37:37] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:37:39] I'd also say there might be a socioeconomic element to some of this. These situations where it's one thing, if you're a doctor, make good money independently doing great, versus maybe your career was only in the church. Maybe you wouldn't have a career without the church. Or maybe you wouldn't have a good income.
Joe Ngatia [03:38:04] Right.
John Dehlin [03:38:05] Without the church. But with the church, you have a really good income, a really good livelihood and a really good reputation.
Joe Ngatia [03:38:11] Absolutely.
John Dehlin [03:38:12] Social status.
Joe Ngatia [03:38:13] Absolutely.
John Dehlin [03:38:14] Right.
Joe Ngatia [03:38:14] I can see that. You know, and you know, and not to be, you know, and to be self critical. I would say there's a reason I did not leave the church when I was going to byu.
John Dehlin [03:38:24] Right.
Joe Ngatia [03:38:24] I needed byu.
John Dehlin [03:38:25] Right, Right.
Joe Ngatia [03:38:26] And so I might have known everything if I knew what I knew in 20, 2015, if I had known that when I was at BYU.
John Dehlin [03:38:34] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:38:35] Well, I think human being are always part of that. Part of our effort is self preservation.
John Dehlin [03:38:41] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:38:42] And so you get to a point where you are bound by your self interest not to know things or not to take them too seriously because it's not convenient for you to know those things.
John Dehlin [03:38:53] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:38:53] And so.
John Dehlin [03:38:56] Yeah, absolutely.
Joe Ngatia [03:38:57] So I think that's part of it. Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:38:59] Yeah. Not to judge anyone. What about just to stay in the church? Because it's good. Like, there's the idea that it's not true, but it's good. You can raise your kids in it. You can have community. You can. And it's not. People always say, well, you can. You can find community in Catholicism, you can find community in secularism. Yeah, fine. But this, you can also find community. Mormonism. And there are Mormons who are active who don't believe. So how about just like stay, because it's a good place to be and to raise kids and. Yeah, truth, schmoof. But like community. You know what I mean?
Joe Ngatia [03:39:37] Yeah. But is it possible because the church demands certain things of you. You cannot just course through it. Right. You're called to do calling. You know, those calling you have to at sometimes say the church is true. And even if you're not saying it, you're sitting there agreeing with things you don't agree with.
John Dehlin [03:39:55] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:39:55] And so you're fundamentally becomes untruthful to your core.
John Dehlin [03:39:59] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:40:00] Right. And the other thing is for us, for example, as the kids grew older.
John Dehlin [03:40:04] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:40:05] There's a lot of messages that are not. I mean I never had somebody really. I can't remember anybody being rude to me in my face. But there's a lot of messaging even in the art of the church. It's hard to look at your 78 year old or 90 old old who looks at all the painting. And I had this experience and you see everything about heaven is white and all those things. The kid may not have the bandwidth to understand difficult concept. But they know they can understand a picture.
John Dehlin [03:40:34] God's white, Jesus is white. You know, the first presidency is white. One of the 12 is mostly white.
Joe Ngatia [03:40:40] Overwhelmingly white. Right.
John Dehlin [03:40:42] The Book of Mormon still says the dark skins occurs.
Joe Ngatia [03:40:45] Exactly. And so it's kind of hard to read your chart that path. I remember a discussion I had with my kid, my firstborn. He was like, I think first or second grade. We were still in the church and. And I got him from school and you know, I like to mess with him. And I said so Aiden, his name is. I said, yeah. What do you think? How do you think God looks like? And he was quite for he's white. And I. Nobody had ever told him this.
John Dehlin [03:41:14] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:41:15] But it's very easy to see what you're reading your child. Right. You're giving them a complex.
John Dehlin [03:41:21] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:41:21] And an inferiority complex. If you begin to believe this deeply, eventually you're going to have this hierarchy in which certain people are better than you by nature.
John Dehlin [03:41:31] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:41:32] Right. And so I wasn't raised that way. I never had to deal with that kind of complex. And I felt like I should not startle my children with that kind of thing.
John Dehlin [03:41:41] Yeah. I think it's called internalized racism.
Joe Ngatia [03:41:43] Right, Exactly.
John Dehlin [03:41:44] Yeah. And I learned about this when I was getting my PhD in psychology. They show you this film where they would give a white doll and a black doll.
Joe Ngatia [03:41:53] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:41:53] To a little black girl.
Joe Ngatia [03:41:54] I remember watching that over and over
John Dehlin [03:41:56] and over and what would happen.
Joe Ngatia [03:41:57] And then, you know, so it was a, I, I believe it was a research and these are kids who are, they haven't gone to school. So you cannot blame it on teachers telling them this.
John Dehlin [03:42:06] Right.
Joe Ngatia [03:42:07] So they get all These black kids. Kids and raised by black families.
John Dehlin [03:42:12] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:42:13] And then they bring a black doll and a white doll.
John Dehlin [03:42:16] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:42:16] And then the kids, they say, well, which do you think this. Which doll do you think is good?
John Dehlin [03:42:22] Which is the good doll?
Joe Ngatia [03:42:23] Which is the good doll, which you think is the naughty one.
John Dehlin [03:42:26] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:42:27] And almost invariably, in fact. Invariably.
John Dehlin [03:42:30] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:42:31] These black kids always pointed to put the good virtues to the white doll and the bad vices on the black tone.
John Dehlin [03:42:39] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:42:40] And that's heartbreaking.
John Dehlin [03:42:41] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:42:42] Because this is some sort of an internal decimation in some ways that person is going to go through life. You know, it doesn't matter how loudly they say they are good, but deep down, they have internalized something that's not good about themselves.
John Dehlin [03:42:58] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:42:59] And so that's. That is hard, you know. Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:43:03] You didn't want to do that.
Joe Ngatia [03:43:04] I did not want to do that to my kids. And I did not.
John Dehlin [03:43:07] Not.
Joe Ngatia [03:43:08] I do not think it'll be spiritually healthy for them. So you can say, well, you can leave the kids in the church and raise them there, you know, you cannot have morality without religion. That's a fallacy. Right. You can have morals without religion. Yeah. You can do good to people, of course, religion to argue that you cannot have maritality without Christianity, for example. Christianity has only exist 2000 years. People existed before that. They must have had morals.
John Dehlin [03:43:37] Right.
Joe Ngatia [03:43:38] Yeah, Right. People are not killing them, you know, they are. They are evolutionary reasons for people to be kind to their neighbors. Right. To want to feed the hungry and
John Dehlin [03:43:48] to clothe the naked and to build a society.
Joe Ngatia [03:43:50] Yeah, exactly. Cooperation, really. We cooperate with each other because we know that pays, you know, and it optimizes our chances of survival, you know, and so you really, in fact, religion comes in to improve cooperation within species.
John Dehlin [03:44:05] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:44:06] And so. So. So it's not necessary that you need to have a region and religion can
John Dehlin [03:44:12] introduce violence and war.
Joe Ngatia [03:44:13] Oh, absolutely.
John Dehlin [03:44:14] Yeah. So the opposite could be true.
Joe Ngatia [03:44:16] It cannot. Yeah, exactly. But we choose the good, you know, the virtues of religion. We ignore the vices because that, you know, doesn't convert people, you know, so. Yes.
John Dehlin [03:44:27] So you don't need necessarily religion to raise moral kids or something.
Joe Ngatia [03:44:31] Oh, no, no, I don't. In fact, sometime you can raise, you know, religion in. Encourages in group cooperation, in group kindness and all that. Right. People who are very deeply religious tend not to be very inclusive of others who are not from that religious background. You know, it's kind of hard to break into them, into their group, you know.
John Dehlin [03:44:54] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:44:55] And so. Yeah. So you. I did not feel was necessary.
John Dehlin [03:45:01] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:45:01] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:45:02] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [03:45:02] Yeah.
Reflections on Mormonism in Sub-Saharan Africa
John Dehlin [03:45:03] Let me pivot a tiny bit then to ask you one of the questions I've been dying to ask a sub Saharan African. Yes. Mormon or ex Mormon for a long time. Yes. We all know that the LDS Church is basically flat in terms of growth in the United States. That if it weren't for the birth rate of Mormons being three children on average per couple and it's declining. But if it weren't for the high growth rate in the United States and even in Utah, the LDS Church would likely be in decline.
Joe Ngatia [03:45:44] Right.
John Dehlin [03:45:45] And in Western Europe and in developed Asia, the Church is full on in decline.
Joe Ngatia [03:45:53] Right.
John Dehlin [03:45:54] Like lose, like losing members. Losing more members than it's gaining year over year.
Joe Ngatia [03:45:59] Right.
John Dehlin [03:46:00] And then we know that in places like Latin America and the Philippines there are astronomical baptism rates.
Joe Ngatia [03:46:09] Yes.
John Dehlin [03:46:09] But that the retention is less than 10% and the activity rates are sometimes less than 10% countrywide. That there are discrepancies of hundreds of thousands of, of, you know, members that the Church claims in countries like Chile and Brazil and the Philippines where the national census shows hundreds of thousands of less people who self identify as Mormon.
Joe Ngatia [03:46:36] Right.
John Dehlin [03:46:37] That's kind of been established on Mormon story for a long time. The big exception globally is Africa.
Joe Ngatia [03:46:42] Right.
John Dehlin [03:46:42] And mostly sub Saharan Africa, not Northern Africa.
Joe Ngatia [03:46:45] Right.
John Dehlin [03:46:45] Where the Church is growing like gangbusters.
Joe Ngatia [03:46:49] Yes.
John Dehlin [03:46:50] We're talking stakes and missions and temples. I'd guess double digit growth rates, not just single digit growth rates, not just 5% growth rates, probably 10 or more double digit growth. Like as someone who is sub Saharan African, as someone who joined the church in Kenya.
Joe Ngatia [03:47:12] Right.
John Dehlin [03:47:13] Is someone who probably loves the African people.
Joe Ngatia [03:47:16] Right.
John Dehlin [03:47:16] And as someone who probably feels grateful for the role the Church played in your life, even if the church's role in your life wasn't exceptional.
Joe Ngatia [03:47:26] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:47:27] I'm guessing you still are grateful for it. So let me just start with a very general question. How do you feel about the Mormon Church growing at probably double digit percentages annually in sub Saharan Africa?
Joe Ngatia [03:47:41] Yeah. Oh, that's, yeah, that's a good, good question. I think the first step we take is the analysis, the reason behind it. Right. And you, this has to be. In some ways you have to see that through the prism of global economics. Right. And so the church is this rich organization and then it comes in and for the first time, if you look at most institution, even government in Africa, they're not very responsive to the people state needs. People have to survive on their own. Then you have this powerful organization that comes in that truly cares for you. Right. When the church moves into a place in Africa, you have these people who are hardworking, like the MO missionaries who set up camp to train people how to get job, you know, employment, who have charity, they give help to people in need. Right, Right. So there is that economic piece of it. Right. I doubt you can make the argument that the only place where the Holy Ghost has access to people is in Africa. So that argument it will be hard to make to serious people. Right. And so I don't think people in Europe or North America or rich countries, the distinction between them and people in poor country is not so much in terms of their openness to spiritual inspiration is saw the main difference is the economic differences. Right. And so that part attracts people to Mormons.
John Dehlin [03:49:17] So the Mormon church is a wealthy,
Joe Ngatia [03:49:19] it's a wealthy institution that cares for people and that.
John Dehlin [03:49:23] Oh, they care for people.
Joe Ngatia [03:49:24] Oh, absolutely. They come across as caring. And especially when contrasted with the local government, that corrupt government that don't care about people. People, at least they don't even pretend to. Right. So whether it's genuine or not is besides the point. The church camp sets, camp built this beautiful building. Well, previously there was none. They set up these dynamic and structures of support for people like how people get employment. Right. So I can see why people come especially in poorly developed countries, while they were would flock to the church. Right. Now the other question is, is it good for them? And I think help is always good. Giving people hope, it's good. Right. I can never fault this church for going into a place helping people who maybe get education, for example. Right. That's always going to be good. Helping people who didn't know how to interview for a job and the things they would have to say because that's one of the things that church did in Kenya, Kenya, they would have service missionaries who taught people how to get jobs. Right. That is good. Right. So it's, I think it's that intersection of caring and practicality. The church is there to, you know, they say we help people fish instead of giving them a fish. So they are really doing things that help people in real practical to solve real world problems. Right, Right. And so I can see why people in Africa and poor countries generally, they flock to the church. Is it also the reason why they, they don't stay too long? Because most of the people think they, if you came there and you're poor and you thought you were going to get a handout, the church, you know, does not necessarily give people a handout too much they are into helping people develop themselves, right. They give them the means to go gather fish for themselves. And so anybody who is looking for an easy way out their problem, sometimes they don't stay too long. If that's the only reason that brought you to the church, most likely you're not gonna stay. Either you're gonna have your problem, economic problem resolved and therefore they have no reason to stay or it's not going to be solved the way you thought or anticipate will be solved. And so you move on. So that's a problem with the retention. But would I say the church generally is a force for good? I think for generally in most poor country it is. Right. And so I would not say that, you know, I would never be. If I was in a position of power in Africa, if I was a president of a country, I would not stop Mormons from coming, doing what they do.
John Dehlin [03:52:08] Even though you now no longer believe
Joe Ngatia [03:52:10] the church to be true? Yes, I would not. And the reason is the real world problem. People live in real world, right. Anybody who, you know, just like the Islamic organization that give people eight, you know, the Catholic organization that give people. I'll never stop any of them. I would see themselves on the same plane, their truth claim not notwithstanding. You know, I'll put those aside because people in need are not looking necessary for a theological problem to the their economic problems. Right. Whatever your belief system are, if you feed somebody who is hungry, you've done good. Right? Right. And so. And once they get standing on their own feet, they will resolve their own contradictions. Eventually they will, Right. If you join the church and you did not know anything about the race and priesthood and all these other things, but you did not die of malnutrition, right? And you found access to employment because the church employment missionaries taught you how to get a job that is good, Right. You know, you can ignore the, you know, the theological structure and then look at real world solutions. You know, I think we have to be pragmatic, you know, and I think that's a pragmatic solution because I do
John Dehlin [03:53:32] meet ex Mormons a lot that are hurt. Maybe they've been traumatized, maybe they feel misled, maybe they feel like they gave too much money to the church or too much time or just believed under false circumstances.
Joe Ngatia [03:53:45] Right?
John Dehlin [03:53:45] And they're just like, if I had my wish, I would remove the Mormon Church from everywhere. I would have the Mormon Church go away. That's not your position.
Joe Ngatia [03:53:55] I would disagree with that. You know, even as a doctor for the years I Spend in the church. Church, you know, the church gave me if, you know, if you have to put a ledger, this is how much money the church gave me. This is how much money I put in the church. There's no question that money I put in the church was a lot more than I ever received from the church
John Dehlin [03:54:13] in terms of cash, real cash. Okay.
Joe Ngatia [03:54:16] But the church brought me a value. First of all, that is much more than money. The church gave me the tools, for example, to do the deep mental work, self reflection. I never, as a teenager, I was not in that business. Right. Most teenagers are not. Right. To ask hard questions of myself. Yes, eventually it will be. It was the same mechanism that forced me out of the church, but at least they got me to think to handle the big questions about existence. Right. So that was good as far as, and I cannot judge people who, for example, if they were traumatized, if somebody was sexually assaulted in a church, for example, or they were physically abused, they would come up to with a very different conclusions. Right. Because their journey was very different from mine. Right. So I can see why they would feel this is an, it's an evil influence for them. But generally in the context of Africa, I don't believe anybody was being abused by the church, you know, other than, yeah, there's, you get into a contract, if you can call Babson, a contract without informed consent because you don't have the information. Right. But I don't think that's how didn't harm me. You know, eventually. Yeah. A broad contradiction that I had to deal with down the road. But I think those contradictions were mind expanding for me. It forced me to do a lot of work within myself to look into questions that never would have. I don't think my life would be better if I never have to deal with the questions of race and the questions of theology, those, you know, if I had just joined a church in which I was born, who had these questions just, I took it as a matter of course that I belong to this church and I just went through the motions. I don't, my life would not be as rich as it is today. So there's a content, there's a mental content, if you want, and you can even call it spiritual content that was introduced to me by the, the Mormon journey that I went through, you know. Yeah, yeah. So I, I, I cannot father church for what they do. I think they, they do good work. You know, at least in those poor country, they do give people real, real help. Help. Because when somebody is hungry and suffering, I Don't think there's much you can tell them that make their predicament any better than the person who feed them.
John Dehlin [03:56:50] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:56:50] You know, and the church does feed people. Now you can make the. It's a different argument to say do they, how much fraction of their wealth do they employ towards charity compared to their full know what they have. But that's a different question. And I'm not sure I'll be the right person, you know, because I don't know how much church. The money, how much money the church has, but the little good it does. And, and I think it's a lot of good. It's good for the, the recipient, each person who receives it. I think it makes a difference in their life.
John Dehlin [03:57:25] And you feel like it's been good for you.
Joe Ngatia [03:57:27] It was a great experience for me.
John Dehlin [03:57:29] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:57:29] Yes. Did I go through some painful, in at least mentally painful journey. Journey, like internally painful journey? Yeah, it was. But I think it was good for me because it woke a part of me that was asleep. And once I, you know, once awakened, I feel it has remained, it continued to illuminate certain light. It brought a quality to my life. It expanded my landscape of awareness and that was good.
John Dehlin [03:57:58] There are a lot of ex Mormons here in Utah or in the United States or in the UK or wherever who once they decide the church isn't true, they're really angry.
Joe Ngatia [03:58:09] Yeah.
John Dehlin [03:58:09] They're just like, I was misled. I, I would have spent my, my adolescence differently. I would have, I would have gotten married at a different time. I would have had kids at a different time. If at all women say I would have had a career, I would have gotten my education. Like I'd say the majority of ex Mormons in the United States that I've met. Met. Right. Would say I'm angry that I was ever Mormon. I'm not hearing you say that.
Joe Ngatia [03:58:38] Yeah. And because I think my journey was very different. I did not get married until I was almost 27. Right. I can see from their lens if somebody got married when they were 18 and they, they did not even consider getting a good education because they were a girl and they thought my job would be a full time mother the rest of my life for them. A lot was sacrifice for the church in that case and it really truncated their life potentials.
John Dehlin [03:59:09] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:59:10] But that's not my journey. Right.
John Dehlin [03:59:12] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [03:59:13] In the sense I did not spend my life. If anything, the church enriched me in many ways. I came. BYU was a great place to go to school intellectually, you know, and even Socially, I did not have terrible experiences.
John Dehlin [03:59:29] No.
Joe Ngatia [03:59:30] I had very good friends. Friends, yeah. I've always had good friends. I mean, there's some uncomfortable experiences, but that would have been true even if I had gone to some other university in another place. You know, I think that's the nature of mankind, I think. Yeah, but. But also I think part of it is cultural. Right. I think in the west, people a little bit more rigid. Right. I feel like people in the. In the. Whether it's Europe or North America, being not told the full truth is taken a little like a personal injury. This is almost like Emmanuel Kant. There is this categorical imperative. You know, remember that the hypothetical you say even naughty, there is a Jew come hind under your bed and the Nazi soldier came to your door and asked you, is you in this. In this house? You have, you know, the categorical imperative to say yes.
John Dehlin [04:00:33] I think this is the first time Emmanuel Kant has been invoked in Mormon stories. I love it.
Joe Ngatia [04:00:38] No, it's more like a Kantian approach to life. Yeah, right.
John Dehlin [04:00:42] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [04:00:43] Like, it's a huge. Is a personal injury. And part of it is how they believed. Right. If somebody was raised believing strongly about the Urim and Thurmium, and then they find there was a hat and a rock in it.
John Dehlin [04:00:59] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [04:01:00] That is. It's almost an insult. It's a deep insult to a person who has been saying this all their life.
John Dehlin [04:01:07] But that happened to you?
Joe Ngatia [04:01:09] It happened to me, but I suppose it's a lot easier because I had been inoculated in some way. I did not join the church until I was 17. I had seen the world that it had been bit.
John Dehlin [04:01:18] And it sounds like you're saying in Kenya there isn't this categorical imperative.
Joe Ngatia [04:01:23] Oh, yes, it's. We grew up on folklore. My grandmother would teach me about moral lesson by telling me about a hyena was talking, like, to a wolf or whatever, you know, So I give different interpretation to things, and I do not. But I'm not very retro in my understanding. But I think, think if you grew up with a Kantian understanding of life, I think there's a certain literality and expectations that you have that are dashed when you discover that there was, for example, a hat in a rock. For example. There's no Urim and Thomas and all those things.
John Dehlin [04:02:03] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [04:02:03] Yes.
John Dehlin [04:02:04] Okay. Another question. This is great. Thank you. I'm loving this next question. So you talked about if you were like president of Kenya and you had the choice of evicting Mormons or not, you would keep the Mormons even As an ex Mormon.
Joe Ngatia [04:02:18] Yes.
John Dehlin [04:02:19] President of Kenya.
Joe Ngatia [04:02:20] Absolutely.
John Dehlin [04:02:21] Let's say you could wave a magic wand and either Mormon missionaries in Africa would teach truthful history to all Africans before they could join the church. In other words, they teach them about the one drop rule, they teach them about the curse of Cain, they teach them about. About the priesthood ban, they even teach them about the Rock in the hat and the Urimum Thummim and the Book of Abraham. And they teach them all those things and they have to because of informed consent. As a doctor, you know what informed consent is, Right. Like you have the choice of deciding whether or not Mormon missionaries have to teach all the truth to Africans before they join, or you have the choice to say no. Like, I want the church to help Africans and if they learn all that truth, they probably won't join. So I guess I'm okay with the church not teaching Africans all the truth because I want them to get the benefit of membership. Which do you choose? How's that? Is that.
Joe Ngatia [04:03:32] I like that question. I think I'll prioritize truth, obviously. Right. Truth is always. Should always be prioritized. Right.
John Dehlin [04:03:45] I think, well, if it's get starving or not, you know.
Joe Ngatia [04:03:48] Well, if you had to go to that hypothetical, the content hypothetical, of course, you don't want to say he's hiding under the bed. Right?
John Dehlin [04:03:55] Yeah. The Jew. Yes.
Joe Ngatia [04:03:59] To the Nazis there, you know, the consequences. Consequence.
John Dehlin [04:04:01] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [04:04:01] I think you have to weigh the consequence in that case. The consequence, of course, is a lethal for the person, for the victim. Right.
John Dehlin [04:04:07] And you could say that's true for Africans.
Joe Ngatia [04:04:09] Now the qu. You know, the question then in your hypothetical is if they were taught these things, there's no reason to believe people who are in need.
John Dehlin [04:04:21] Oh.
Joe Ngatia [04:04:22] Would not still join this church to fulfill their ambition, the aspiration to. To have their needs met.
John Dehlin [04:04:29] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [04:04:29] Right.
John Dehlin [04:04:30] Like if you're su. If you're super poor. Yes. In Africa.
Joe Ngatia [04:04:33] Right.
John Dehlin [04:04:34] In Kenya. And you don't. Maybe you don't have a lot of education.
Joe Ngatia [04:04:37] Right.
John Dehlin [04:04:38] And. And the church is offering pathways as a way for you to maybe get a high school diploma or maybe even a college degree. What it sounds like you're saying is maybe even if you learn all that problematic church history, you join anyway.
Joe Ngatia [04:04:51] There are a lot of people. Desperate time calls for desperate measures. Remember the story I told you about that guy who gave us their child?
John Dehlin [04:04:59] Child, yeah. Yes.
Joe Ngatia [04:05:01] So that person would join the church even if you told him about all those things. Right, of course.
John Dehlin [04:05:06] And so if they tell you their child.
Joe Ngatia [04:05:08] Yeah. If somebody's willing to sacrifice their child.
John Dehlin [04:05:10] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [04:05:11] So they're. That same person will be willing to sacrifice their ego.
John Dehlin [04:05:16] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [04:05:16] Right.
John Dehlin [04:05:17] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [04:05:17] And so I don't think it necessarily follows like if you've discovered all these things.
John Dehlin [04:05:25] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [04:05:25] That the truth claims were false and still you have this.
John Dehlin [04:05:30] Or racist.
Joe Ngatia [04:05:31] Yeah. Or racist.
John Dehlin [04:05:32] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [04:05:33] But it's, it's racism that's taught you by a very delicate person with a big smile and a bag of potatoes. Right. Because obviously they have gift to give you if your aspiration is to be helped. You know, you may be able to forego your pride for a little bit. It. Yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin [04:05:53] But maybe less Africans would benefit you. You, you've said on the one hand you benefited and Africans generally benefit from Mormonism. Maybe a lot less would join and benefit from Mormonism if they were taught the truth. So maybe I'll ask it a different way because I don't want to ask you. Are you okay with people being lied to? Are you up, how upset are you to know that Africans might be joining the Mormon Church in 2025 without all the information? Or are you kind of like, ah, the good outweighs the bad, I suppose
Joe Ngatia [04:06:31] the issue of incomplete disclosure, you know. Yeah. In this case it may be more relevant to African. But that's true of all converts everywhere. Most converts who join the church, they don't know. Know half the things they need to know. Right.
John Dehlin [04:06:46] Most Mormons.
Joe Ngatia [04:06:48] Yeah. Anywhere you go.
John Dehlin [04:06:49] Yeah, that's true.
Joe Ngatia [04:06:50] Nobody has a fully informed consent, whether in Africa as well, almost nowhere. Right. So as far as that goes, then that then cancels out because that. So the question will only be very relevant to come to the racist issues then.
John Dehlin [04:07:06] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [04:07:06] Right.
John Dehlin [04:07:07] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [04:07:08] So. And they would come down to, is the person teaching you this intending to harm you? Right. Are they telling you all these things? Because eventually they want to colonize you, they want to make you subordinate to them. And I think generally moments, even when they convert people, they don't intend to make him subordinate to themselves. Right. They honestly believe they are doing God's work and that this thing will make your life pristine and it's going to bring you from the dregs, whatever suffering you are, you're going through and the subsequent generation will be so much happier. So if you go to the question of motivation, most missionaries, they go to do good, they intend to do good and they believe they're doing good. None of that. And in fact, most missionaries have no idea about the things we are talking.
John Dehlin [04:08:01] Absolutely right. Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [04:08:03] And so it's a little complicated. So the question that is knowing what I know, Eva, would I force the church to teach everyone the truth, the full truth, or would I leave the status quo, the structure of the status quo to continue? Then I would have to make a global idea. It had to be global. It has to be everywhere, not just in Africa. Right? Yeah. Because it seems to me that, that knowing or not knowing the truth has not really factored into Mormonism anywhere in on the planet.
John Dehlin [04:08:41] No.
Joe Ngatia [04:08:42] Because nobody knows the truth fully. We made. We know probably a little bit more, but I'm sure there are certain things that we don't know. Right.
John Dehlin [04:08:49] Most never do.
Joe Ngatia [04:08:50] So then it comes the functional question that is, are they getting help that they need? Are they getting an infusion of hope? Right. And is this hope, whether this hope comes from a Catholic, a Mormon, or somebody who believe Muhammad is the last messenger? Right. Timmy is functionally equivalent. Right?
John Dehlin [04:09:14] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [04:09:15] Their children are now dying of hunger. They're getting immunization. So. Because unless you believe you're harming people, because I don't think there is any real harm, harm done because eventually, yeah. You know, the people who eventually grow up and they get realized to a lie to, or they had incomplete disclosure of whatever was known, then they should do their own work to get out of that situation. Right. And so. But at that point, they'll be in a better office position to decide for themselves.
John Dehlin [04:09:49] Yeah. And kind of what I'm hearing is kind of, kind of a reasonable position because I'd say the same thing about Guatemala. Like the members, the, the Guatemalans that joined the Mormon Church and really got into it.
Joe Ngatia [04:10:01] Yes.
John Dehlin [04:10:02] It made their lives better.
Joe Ngatia [04:10:03] Absolutely.
John Dehlin [04:10:04] Just did.
Joe Ngatia [04:10:04] Absolutely.
John Dehlin [04:10:05] So would I want to prevent them from improving their lives?
Joe Ngatia [04:10:09] No, I wouldn't. I wouldn't.
John Dehlin [04:10:11] So, like, I think ex Mormons oftentimes when they feel betrayed, they look at Mormon church leaders as like, like intentionally deceiving the world.
Joe Ngatia [04:10:21] Right.
John Dehlin [04:10:22] And I think what we're both agreeing with possibly is it's not that they're intentionally deceiving people. What they're just saying is, let's not, let's not introduce meat before milk.
Joe Ngatia [04:10:39] Right.
John Dehlin [04:10:39] Let's give them the simplicity of the gospel.
Joe Ngatia [04:10:42] Right.
John Dehlin [04:10:43] And then later they can, they can have the strength to learn more. It's not with the intent to deceive.
Joe Ngatia [04:10:52] Right.
John Dehlin [04:10:52] It's with the intent to benefit their lives, that they're withholding information.
Joe Ngatia [04:10:57] And it works like, I know the people I taught. I. A lot of people are taught. And after their conversion, it's a lot of people, their lives, you Know, they became committed family members, men and women. They raise their kids the right way because the principle, the church teach are good principles. Be kind to your wife, love your husband, love your children, raise them with good morals. These are not bad things anywhere. Right.
John Dehlin [04:11:27] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [04:11:28] We have the luxury to go far beyond in the theoretical sphere. Right. We can ask the. You know, we can probe the history, you know, but that's largely people who are hungry don't have. Have. Right. And so, you know, so. So I think. And also we make many assumptions. We assume that you can walk to any given general authority, and they have this meeting in which the whole trove of information is given to them. And they all have the intellectual, you know, means to comprehend it, and even the emotional capacity to want to understand it. Some people just push it out. I don't.
John Dehlin [04:12:08] Clearly, Joseph Satati, he didn't want to know those. Didn't want to know.
Joe Ngatia [04:12:13] And so. And there a lot of. And I don't think that's unique. I think a lot of general authorities of the church.
John Dehlin [04:12:18] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [04:12:19] They see the good. They focus on the good.
John Dehlin [04:12:21] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [04:12:22] They say these other things, hypothetical or even historical, may or may be not true. But it's irrelevant to my spiritual journey. I'm having these spiritual experiences. They are tangible. They are in me now, now. And from them has sprung this wellspring of joy and hope and I'm spreading out to the world.
John Dehlin [04:12:44] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [04:12:44] So I can see somebody say that.
John Dehlin [04:12:46] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [04:12:47] You know, I respect the opposition.
John Dehlin [04:12:49] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [04:12:49] You know.
John Dehlin [04:12:50] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [04:12:50] It wouldn't have worked for me because I'm a little stubborn and I'm a little, you know, unsettled, you know, and
John Dehlin [04:12:55] truth matters to you maybe more than it does.
Joe Ngatia [04:12:58] Absolutely.
John Dehlin [04:12:58] Other types of brains. Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [04:12:59] And I live in my head more so than, you know, they're living their heart, probably. You know, and so it was hard for me to balance that, you know, but I can see how somebody who is not. Honestly, who is not just dishonest.
John Dehlin [04:13:13] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [04:13:14] They may not be dishonest.
John Dehlin [04:13:15] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [04:13:16] But they feel the greater good is achieved by staying in the church for them and their family. And I can respect them.
John Dehlin [04:13:23] And I guess we do have to just also provide the disclaimer that if you're gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, if you were abused in the church, if you're, you know, if you're a woman who postponed education or postponed a career, or if you. Male or female, married too young or married without experiences that you wish you'd had or had kids earlier than you wanted or too many kids, more kids than you Wanted. There are plenty of people who experienced real harm in the church.
Joe Ngatia [04:14:00] Right.
John Dehlin [04:14:02] Where what we just got through spending 30 minutes talking about it would be experienced as a horrific, traumatizing, bad experience.
Joe Ngatia [04:14:11] Absolutely.
John Dehlin [04:14:12] And not like a positive experience for someone in the developing country where it was, it was the choice of starvation or, you know, loneliness or isolation.
Joe Ngatia [04:14:22] Right.
John Dehlin [04:14:23] You would have had a pleasant middle or upper middle class life if you hadn't have been put in the Mormon Church.
Joe Ngatia [04:14:31] Right, right, right.
John Dehlin [04:14:32] So we, we can create. It's a both and we can create space for different realities where people would have been better off or worse off. It's not universal.
Joe Ngatia [04:14:42] Absolutely. And I would, you know, I would. I agree with those sentiment because obviously, Eve, if. If you went through some of those horrific experience that you see described, there is no way you can be a passive critic of the church.
John Dehlin [04:14:57] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [04:14:58] It's deep thing. It's. It's a burden you must bear the rest of your life.
John Dehlin [04:15:02] And you are going to conclude that the world would be better off without the church.
Joe Ngatia [04:15:06] Absolutely, absolutely.
John Dehlin [04:15:07] But that's not what you've concluded based on your experience. No.
Joe Ngatia [04:15:10] And mostly because my experiences have been mostly past positive. Yeah. And I'm not saying, you know, and even in my memoir, narrated, I do speak of, like, I am very mindful to show the positive that came out of this. My spiritual journey, my faith journey.
John Dehlin [04:15:30] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [04:15:30] And later on I am, I go to the, to the depth of my internal struggles. No, because they are deep, emotional of experiences. When you realize, when you begin to come contemplate the possibility that God is a racist, this God that you loved had sudden feelings towards you. And so these are painful experiences generally. Right. And I, you know, I write these things in the most candid way because I want, I don't want to give this, you know, joyful or sad story because, you know, there is both sides of the coin and I felt the need to represent them and to come up before I came to my conclusion at the end, I wanted somebody to have walked the path I had walked because then otherwise my conclusion will not make sense.
John Dehlin [04:16:23] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [04:16:23] Yeah.
John Dehlin [04:16:26] Okay. Yeah. This has been super enlightening. Let me just ask you really quickly, like, you know, there really isn't. I mean, I think the CES letter has been translated into a few languages and I get all requests all the time to have Mormon stories translated in other languages. And I don't know how to do that. But like, you could have, you know, this is the book we mentioned at the beginning. A Quest for New dawn by Joseph Gratia or Joe Got the Maryland. You could have, you could have named your book like an African ex Mormon experience or like why. Why an African would leave the Mormon Church or something like that. Like I imagine that whether it's Latin America, the Philippines or Africa, someday there's going to be a Mormon stories equivalent for Africans or a CS letter equivalent for Africans where a John de Leonard, Jeremy Runnels or whoever, Sam Young, Bill Real RFM loses their faith and then wants to go public with it and tell everybody. I get the sense that you don't want to be that person. Is that true?
Writing a Memoir and Looking Forward
Joe Ngatia [04:17:44] No. Part of the reason I named the book as I named it question you dawn, because it's not. It's start from the beginning of my life. You know, I feel like I've lived three existences. Right. There's that my first 14 years I lived as a child of a tribe and these are deep, you know, primary connected people. And so I described the environment in which I was living in the tribe and what matters in that world. Right. And so that is a part 14 years or months life. And then there's this boarding school experiences, you know, and then there's conversion to Mormonism and, and you know, medical school training.
John Dehlin [04:18:28] Lots of things that are.
Joe Ngatia [04:18:29] Yeah.
John Dehlin [04:18:30] Mormon necessary.
Joe Ngatia [04:18:31] Yeah. A lot of things that have nothing to do with the church. But from my young adulthood, the church journey was always somewhere in the background because it became a fundamental part of my identity moment. Right. And so everything I had to give its meaning and interpretation through the prism of Mormonism.
John Dehlin [04:18:52] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [04:18:53] So there's a good chunk of my life that that is a fact, but not the whole story.
John Dehlin [04:18:58] Yeah. Okay.
Joe Ngatia [04:18:59] Yeah.
John Dehlin [04:18:59] And so if somebody were to say why if you believe that most Africans would probably benefit by being a member of the church. Now here you are talking about how you left. What reason would you give people for why you wanted to do this interview at all? If there might be a Kenyan Mormon investigator.
Joe Ngatia [04:19:23] Yeah.
John Dehlin [04:19:23] Who stumbles on this video on YouTube and then decides not to join because they.
Joe Ngatia [04:19:27] Yeah.
John Dehlin [04:19:28] See your story.
Joe Ngatia [04:19:29] Yeah, that's. No, I don't necessarily. I wouldn't say that. I believe most African would join. Will be hap. Will be better off joining the church.
John Dehlin [04:19:38] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [04:19:39] I would also say say most African who will be better off getting their help, whether from a religious or non religious organization. So if you had, let's say the Red Cross.
John Dehlin [04:19:49] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [04:19:50] And you're in trouble and the Red Cross had a, a program where people could get employment training and all those things, I would never say leave that and go find the moments.
John Dehlin [04:20:00] Okay.
Joe Ngatia [04:20:01] That program will not be any better.
John Dehlin [04:20:02] Yeah. Right.
Joe Ngatia [04:20:03] So my point would be any person in trouble, you know, the people who come to help them, regardless of whatever stripe they wear.
John Dehlin [04:20:13] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [04:20:14] That's good.
John Dehlin [04:20:15] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [04:20:15] Right.
John Dehlin [04:20:16] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [04:20:16] And so. But why would I do this interval interview in the context of the fact that if somebody was investigating the church, they would discover the falsehood and the deep insults? Because I think it's a very important part of my awakening reckoning. Right, right. It's important for them if. Would I have been better off knowing this thing? I don't know the answer to that question. Like, if I had known it, would I have my life been. It's very hard to adjudicate the question of what would happen. Right.
John Dehlin [04:20:52] I guess you could have gone to university in Kenya.
Joe Ngatia [04:20:55] Exactly. My sister never stayed in this church.
John Dehlin [04:20:57] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [04:20:58] She still managed to do pretty well. She has a doctorate in pharmacy and all that.
John Dehlin [04:21:02] Oh, wow. Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [04:21:03] She left the church the moment she stepped in, you know, even before she left Kenya. Right. So you don't necessarily need the structure of the church to be accomplished.
John Dehlin [04:21:11] You could have become a doctor.
Joe Ngatia [04:21:13] I could have become a doctor with, you know, because the church that's not really. Did not make me a doctor.
John Dehlin [04:21:20] It sounds like coming to the US it was easier to become a doctor here.
Joe Ngatia [04:21:23] Absolutely.
John Dehlin [04:21:24] Than if you had tried to stay there.
Joe Ngatia [04:21:26] Staying in Kenya. There was one medical school, another kid.
John Dehlin [04:21:29] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [04:21:30] So that would not have worked out because obviously it'll be. I wasn't accepted in medical school there. I had to go overseas, whether the United Kingdom or the United States. Right. And most Kenyans back in the days went to the uk.
John Dehlin [04:21:42] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [04:21:43] But the US was, I think for me personally, the US was the right place.
John Dehlin [04:21:49] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [04:21:49] You know, but do I think it's. The. The information I provide about my experiences is helpful? I think it is as painful as it. As it was for me to go through these deep pre disconcerting discoveries. Right. I think they expanded my intellectual horizon. They gave me a reason to seek even wider knowledge of the world. Right, right. And so I think it'll be useful to, you know, to a lot of people, even people who are in the church right now, especially black people, for example, example, who I can convert. I don't think they would necessarily read it and walk away from the church. I do not approach it with a missionary zeal or converting people to my
John Dehlin [04:22:42] position or deconverting people.
Joe Ngatia [04:22:44] Yeah. I have no. That was never my ambition.
John Dehlin [04:22:46] Me either.
Joe Ngatia [04:22:47] Yeah.
John Dehlin [04:22:47] So it's. So, yeah.
Joe Ngatia [04:22:49] It cannot be Right. Because people have to decide. They are, you know, we are on our own journey. You. You're ready to take whatever trajectory you want to go on.
John Dehlin [04:22:58] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [04:22:59] No.
John Dehlin [04:22:59] I surveyed recently, my audience, what percentage of them lost their faith before they started listening to Mormon stories versus lost their faith because they listened to Mormon stories. And I think over 90% had lost their faith before listening.
Joe Ngatia [04:23:17] And that's why they came looking for you, because they were looking to find a fellowship for the position they had already arrived at. I feel like, for me, I already felt and uncomfortable in the church. Right. I did not necessarily accept his position, and finding your podcast, to me, confirmed what I already believed.
John Dehlin [04:23:40] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [04:23:41] It gave me more richness, more substance, because there's a lot more. There are a lot more people, and some of them are experts in whatever given topic. And so that was helpful to me, you know, But I don't think. Think the podcast got me out of the church.
John Dehlin [04:23:56] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [04:23:56] Yes.
John Dehlin [04:23:58] Last question. What do you want to say about healing and growth after leaving the church? Whether it's mental health, marriage, parenting, spirituality. How has it been for you? 2017, y' all resigned from the church? 2018, 2017, it's been. Been seven, eight years. How has life been? Have. Have you grown spiritually, intellectually, emotionally? And if so, what tips do you want to give people about healing and growth after Mormonism?
Joe Ngatia [04:24:35] I think it, for me, it was. It was a big plus, the fact that we took. My wife and I took this journey together. Some people don't have the life actually. You know, their spouse could be devout and yet not. And that brings a lot of conflict in. In the relationship. Obviously, some people would pretty much divorce you.
John Dehlin [04:24:55] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [04:24:56] You know, so it's. I don't know what I would say to such a person. And. But for me, what has. I felt like leaving the church was invitation for me to expand my awareness. And I started this journey because when I was a Mormon, I felt there were certain things I could not look into because they were heretical. Right. And since leaving, I felt like my understanding of humanity, for example, and the world itself was so essential if I was to avoid a situation where I could be misled to believe something, something I needed to arm myself with knowledge of how the world truly worked. Right. So I embarked on studies of, about, you know, evolutionary psychology and even astrophysical. I. I get. I read books. I. I like to listen to other people experiences. Right. And then, most importantly, I think you still have to answer the fundamental question about meaning and purpose for life.
John Dehlin [04:26:02] Right.
Joe Ngatia [04:26:02] Because what want the church Gives you, tells you you were born and you have a purpose in existence. And this purpose is. It's a part of your basic nature. It started before you were born. A. The purpose of you to be on this earth is to earn some credentials to have a better celestial existence afterwards, right? When you take that all away, you have to replace it with something. And because you find that some people, they leave the church, they have. Have nothing. Right? And so I do not. I no longer believe there's a universal meaning for everybody. I don't necessarily think there's one meaning that serves our people right. But you, I feel like my invitation, when I left the church, I was invited to fight, to find what I live for, right? And you can find meaning in your work, right. You can find meaning in raising your family, family. Right. You can find meaning in achieving, you know, a deeper understanding of the world. The purpose is what you do. I still believe strongly that people who do good, they feel better, Right. I. I think service, if there's anything that you take away from Mormonism, is their need to reach out and serve other people. Yeah, I don't pay tithing, but I still feel strongly a good chunk of my income must be donated it to organization like Doctors Without Border or, you know, those organizations that truly do good who I cannot reach. I cannot go to Gaza or Ukraine or Sudan to do this. I have a life. But those people are there. They have infrastructure to help people. I think you must continue to believe that you're your brother's keeper or your sister's keeper, right? So I don't think the moment you leave male Mormonism, you should vacate our morals or your social obligations to your fellow man. Right? So for me, I have continued to do that work. And so that's how I find meaning as far as. Do I have the answers as far as what happened in the afterlife. That question to me is still an open question. I do not know. I don't. I don't consider myself religious, Right. But I still do believe, like, even outside the construct of religion, you can have a deeply, very rich spiritual life. Like, one of my favorite what I came into is I did a lot of, you know, I have. Do a lot of reading of the. It's research, really, the mind research that you find from Tibet, meditation, really observing the mind. And it gives you the core source of human suffering. Most of it come from a lack of proper understanding of, you know, your emotions, your reactions. And so the more you get to the core of that truth, right, the more you remove all the illusions that cause people suffering. The happier you are, you find contentment. And I'm not a Buddhist, but I feel like Buddhism is one of the best non religion philosophy philosophies that help people come to a better understanding of their position in life. You know, I feel, I feel better now. I feel much, I'm not looking on my shoulder. I don't feel like the need to please God or any other. I don't feel these people watching, keeping a note of what I'm doing every day. You know, like how you in the church, you feel like the angels are keeping little notes on you. I don't believe that anymore. I advocated that belief, but I still believe we have an obligation to be compassionate, to be kind, to understand our, our lives, you know, to understand. Because the mind is everything. If you understand your mind and you go to the core of it, you find contentment and joy.
John Dehlin [04:30:02] A lot of my Christian audience is frustrated that more ex Mormons don't just stay with Christianity. Any. Anything you want to say to them about why you're not just joining a non denominational Christian church? Not, not that I am wanting to promote that.
Joe Ngatia [04:30:20] Yes, yes.
John Dehlin [04:30:21] I think our, our Christian listeners just don't get that.
Joe Ngatia [04:30:23] Yes, well that's a good question. Part of the reason, reason is I feel like, you know, there's an American saying you fool me once
John Dehlin [04:30:33] you think that any religion might be fooling you. Is that what you're saying?
Joe Ngatia [04:30:38] Yes. I feel like you put yourself in a vulnerable position and there's always going to be peer pressure in the, in a, in in the stage of a reason for you to follow others, even when you may disagree with them. Right. Because you're trying always to please others people. And then the other thing, I'm not convinced that my ancestors who live from millions of years without Christianity, like in Africa, their life is worth nothing. You know, I don't believe that to be true anymore. I don't believe you. And I think the first step is I don't believe you need Christianity or any sort of theology for you to make sense of life or to find contentment in life.
John Dehlin [04:31:21] Life.
Joe Ngatia [04:31:21] Because there have been a good chunk of people to this day live outside those construct. You go to the whole of China, which is a huge population, the whole of India, you know, this is probably the two countries that constitute like half of the global population. They're not Christians. Right. And their life has meaning. Or you can tell that from the product of their cultural development that really they have purpose. Right. And so, so do I. Think it's necessary? No, I don't think it is. You know, I think religion give people lazy answers. And I know this is judgmental. It gives you easy answers. Why not to go beyond the obvious, you know, I. So I would. I don't think I would ever join church, ever, any church.
John Dehlin [04:32:08] But they'd say, oh, the Bible's true though, especially the New Testament. That's the word of Jesus. It's true.
Joe Ngatia [04:32:13] It's this true. For it's true because your name is Peter or James or whatever and because you are not born Muhammad in Tehran, Iran. Right. If you go, if you're born in Tehran, the Quran will be very true for you. Right. And so I think most belief is geographical as opposed to spiritual belief. Right. You are born in a certain part and you took it for granted that your ancestors have believed the zingfoil lineages and therefore is unassailable true truth.
John Dehlin [04:32:42] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [04:32:43] It's not necessarily true because it's objectively true. It's true because of your pedigree.
John Dehlin [04:32:49] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [04:32:50] And so I'm not willing to fool myself. I can. I might as well occupy the place and say, well, my tribe did not have books of mythology, but the hyena is talking their mythology. And so the hyena is true, you know, so that is as valid as the argument the Bible is true or the Quran is true. The books of mythology, to me, you know, does it have truth that you could apply? Yeah, of course. Shakespeare has truth. He's not a prophet, you know, so you can find truth anywhere in any culture. You know, even those people who talk to animals, they have certain truth that are useful to, you know, in their lives. That's how they have managed to survive for so many generations. If it wasn't entirely useful, you know, evolution is not kind to people who are, you know, there'll be elimination of the existence. Existence, you know. Yeah. So I don't think if it gives somebody solace and comfort to read those story, of course, you know, there's. There's nothing that will preclude me from reading a biblical story. I do not read the book of Jonah and the well and think, if I was ever stranded in the ocean, I'll jump in the mouth of a well, you know. But is there some truth? Yeah, there are some truth in the Bible. There's some truth in the Book of Mormon. Human, because it's basic human intelligence. Right. They are true than Shakespeare. There is truth in whoever you know. Chinua Chambe, we know, whoever you find, wherever you go. Yeah. So we cannot write off anybody, but we must be careful not to have definite truths that only found among our people or among the people to whom we were born. Because I think that. Is this genuine at some level? Yeah.
John Dehlin [04:34:35] Yeah. Beautiful. Well, I think that's a good place to wrap up. I'm just gonna plug your book one more time. The book is A Quest for New dawn by Joe Gatia. That's N G A T I A M D. And yeah, we've gone four and a half hours.
Joe Ngatia [04:34:52] Wow, that was quick.
John Dehlin [04:34:53] Well, yeah, I was. It was quick for me. Thank you for being willing to come all the way from South Dakota and to share your Mormon story with our audience. And specifically, I'm so happy that we're getting a sub Saharan Africa.
Joe Ngatia [04:35:11] Thank you.
John Dehlin [04:35:12] Mormon story. I mean, we've done Zimbabwe once or twice. One was a white Zimbabwean.
Joe Ngatia [04:35:17] Yeah.
John Dehlin [04:35:18] But I'm so happy that we have a Kenyan Mormon story. So thank you.
Joe Ngatia [04:35:22] Thank you for inviting me. Me, it's. It's been a great pleasure.
John Dehlin [04:35:25] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [04:35:26] And, you know, I can tell it's a pleasure because I didn't even notice the passage of time.
John Dehlin [04:35:30] Are you hungry? It's like we haven't had lunch yet.
Joe Ngatia [04:35:33] It's almost three hours.
John Dehlin [04:35:35] Wow.
Joe Ngatia [04:35:35] I can't believe it.
John Dehlin [04:35:36] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [04:35:36] That's amazing. Yes.
John Dehlin [04:35:38] Yeah. We didn't pause. We didn't stop.
Joe Ngatia [04:35:39] That was awesome.
John Dehlin [04:35:40] Yeah.
Joe Ngatia [04:35:41] Thank you. So, I mean, I looked forward to meeting you for years, you know, from the time we met on a, you know, on podcast. I believe it's 2014, but it's a great pleasure and thank you for, you know, for inviting me.
John Dehlin [04:35:55] Thank you, Joe.
Joe Ngatia [04:35:56] Absolutely.
John Dehlin [04:35:56] Well, thanks for coming on Mormon Stories.
Joe Ngatia [04:35:58] Well, thank you so much.
John Dehlin [04:35:58] Yes. And thanks, everyone, for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Thanks to Julia for her help. Brooklyn helps as well. Trevin on is been our moderator as of late from. From Europe. Thanks to everyone who makes this possible. I just want to say thanks to our donors. We couldn't do this without you. So if you donate to Mormon Stories and the Oba Stories foundation, thank you. We couldn't do it without you. We, we. We do depend on the support of our donors. So if you value this content and you want to see continue, just go to mormonstories.org donate click on the donate button and become a monthly donor and you'll be able to help us continue to do what we do. If you want to apply to Beyond Mormon Stories, that's how we learned about Joe. He applied.
Joe Ngatia [04:36:46] Absolutely.
John Dehlin [04:36:46] You can apply. You can go to mormonstories.org apply and the little application will pop up. You fill it out, record a three minute video. We'll review it. Focus on why you think your story would be interesting to the Mormon Stories audience. We're looking for people who we sense, really know Mormon stories and get a sense for why their story would be unique or valuable or interesting. Interesting. Focus on that. And we are always looking for great stories. So please do that. We we're sorry Margi couldn't join us today, but she'll join us again soon. We love Margi as well. Please subscribe to these channels. Like these channels? Thumbs them up. Comments. Send us your feedback@mormonstoriesgmail.com also please comment on these episodes and we'd just love to hear your feedback. So that's it. Thanks for joining us today. Thanks again to Joe Gatia. Buy his book, make it an international bestseller. A Quest for New dawn by Joe Gatia. Be good to each other, be kind to each other and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. And if you represent a country that hasn't been covered yet on Mormon Stories, apply because we want to cover every major country in the world world in time. So please apply and we'd love to consider you to be on the podcast. Take care everyone. We'll see you all again soon. Thanks again, Joe.
Joe Ngatia [04:38:14] No, thank you so much.
John Dehlin [04:38:15] All right.
Joe Ngatia [04:38:15] It was a pleasure.
Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.
Thumbnail Credits: Image of Joe courtesy of Joe Ngatia; Kenya flag from flagsexpression; Background image of Kenya from stock images
One Response
Joe Ngatia said the reason the church has so much success in bringing people into its ranks in South Africa is due to the real world help it gives to the people there such as teaching them how to improve their economic circumstances and bringing them hope of a better life. I believe he is correct but I also believe the church’s success is due to other factors such as the church’s model is good at creating community which resonates well with African people as their are a very tribal oriented culture. Also, I believe there is less reliance on the internet to enlighten the people in poorer countries leaving them less likely to discover the problems with the church’s truth claims.