Introducing Noah Rasheta

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's September 17, 2026, and today I am excited to announce the fact that I'm interviewing one of my favorite people on the planet. His name is Noah Rasheta. He is the founder of the Secular Buddhism podcast and he has been on Mormon Stories a few times and we've co led workshops together. But most importantly, he has a really amazing Mormon story. And Margi and I, him a dear friend. Welcome back to Mormon Stories, Noah Rasheta.

Noah Rasheta [00:00:35] Thank you, John. It's great to be back and to see you and Margi again.

John Dehlin [00:00:39] Yeah, likewise. And Margi, thanks for joining us.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:43] Yeah, I'm excited.

John Dehlin [00:00:45] So for those who are longtime viewers and listeners, you will have seen that I have interviewed Noah at least once in the past. Life happens and you know, I think. And also our video and audio quality have improved significantly. So I have no problem with more Noah Rasheta. It's kind of like number go up. More Noah Rasheta. That's how I feel. How do you feel, Morgan?

Margi Dehlin [00:01:12] I agree.

John Dehlin [00:01:12] Yeah, more is. More is better. So anyway, we are planning to have Noah tell his Mormon story for part one of today's episode. And what some of you won't know because most of you are newish viewers, is that after Noah had his Mormon journey, to the extent that it changed or ended or transitioned, he started a podcast called Secular Buddhism, which is probably one of the world's top podcasts on Buddhism. He also wrote a few books on secular Buddhism, and he's even writing a book now. And so he's kind of known worldwide as I would say an expert on Buddhism, but not Buddhism as a theology or as a religion, but as a practice and as a discipline and as a way of life. Now, Noah, what would you add, edit, or take away from my introduction?

Noah Rasheta [00:02:15] I think that's spot on.

John Dehlin [00:02:16] Okay. Yeah.

Noah Rasheta [00:02:17] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:02:18] Okay. All right, so should we dive in?

Margi Dehlin [00:02:22] Let's go.

Growing Up Mormon in Mexico

John Dehlin [00:02:23] All right. So, Noah, where does your Mormon story begin?

Noah Rasheta [00:02:28] Okay. It begins when I was about three years old. My mom and dad were converts. So my dad came. He had been previously married. That marriage fell apart. And his. He had a friend he was living with at the time in the airport or. No, he had a friend he was living with who needed to go to the airport. And he took his friend to the airport. And while he was there, he saw my mom, who was just getting off of a plane coming up from Mexico with her sister. This was in Dallas shopping for the weekend. He got brave and got out of the car and went and talked to her, and that's how they met. And that became its own unique love story.

John Dehlin [00:03:13] Your dad was from where?

Noah Rasheta [00:03:15] My dad was raised in an orphanage in Michigan, and my mom was from Guadalajarajara in Mexico.

John Dehlin [00:03:23] And was she lds?

Noah Rasheta [00:03:24] No, neither one of them.

John Dehlin [00:03:25] Okay. Neither one of them.

Noah Rasheta [00:03:27] So when it was time to get married, he couldn't get married in the Catholic Church because he had been married before. So they started searching for a church where they could get married, and they settled on a Lutheran church in Dallas, got married, and then Nick and I were born. So I'm an identical twin. He and I were born, and my dad started kind of going through his own little spiritual awakening. Um, you know, he had a rough life with what he grew up with, and he wanted more stability for us.

Noah Rasheta [00:04:03] And one of his good friends had survived a motorcycle accident that almost killed him. That friend discovered Mormonism. So he starts talking to my dad about it. He's like, hey, this. This way of life is really healthy. It's clean. It's going to help you to get cleaned up. And.

Noah Rasheta [00:04:23] And my mom was a little skeptical of it, but also recognized this could be great. And my dad had the missionaries come over, and he started reading and following with everything, and he decided it was for him. He wanted to join. And at the time, my mom did not want to. She was very Catholic, from a very Catholic family and upbringing.

Noah Rasheta [00:04:45] And my dad kind of told her, like, well, this. It would be best for the family if we're on a unified front. So he kind of pushed her into, you know, really, look at this. And they both ended up converting. So I happened when I was about three.

Noah Rasheta [00:05:02] So I grew up within the framework of the LDS worldview with, I would say, with a connection to Catholicism. So I. I was born in Texas, but then grew up in Mexico, went to private Catholic school, middle school, high school. So I kind of always had.

Noah Rasheta [00:05:25] I would say I had the traditional Mormon upbringing, with the exception that this is in Mexico. So it's just slightly different outside of the country than it is in Utah, for example. So I didn't really know much about the pioneers or a lot of the church history stuff was just irrelevant.

Noah Rasheta [00:05:46] And then at school, I would have Catholicism, and I memorized the Lord's Prayer in Latin and would go to Mass every month with my classmates. So I kind of had both of those frameworks to work with. And then when I turned 19, it was time to go on a mission. And at the time, I didn't want to, but my twin brother did. And that kind of put the pressure on me. I went ahead and told my parents that I wasn't going to go, and he was. And the closer that day got, the more I started picturing myself as, maybe I'm going to be the black sheep.

Noah Rasheta [00:06:24] I don't want to be the black sheep. Maybe I do want to go on a mission. And then I decided to go. So I went on a mission. Nick and I left the same day, came home the same day. He served in Bolivia, I served in Ecuador. So that gave me more time out of the US So from Mexico to Ecuador.

John Dehlin [00:06:44] Can I ask a couple questions about your upright?

Noah Rasheta [00:06:46] Yes, of course.

John Dehlin [00:06:47] And this is great. So as you're being raised Mormon in Mexico, you know, there's the primary songs, there's the teachings about Jesus and God and Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. There's the way of life, there's friends at church, and then there's youth programs and mutual and dances and all that stuff. How were those experiences for you?

Noah Rasheta [00:07:16] Yeah, so I should say the early part of my upbringing was in Texas, where I was born. But before entering that stage of going to seminary or church dances or any of the more social stuff, we had already moved to Mexico. So my memory of growing up LDS in the US Very young was scouts and camps and things like that. Then we moved to Mexico, and there I think I maybe went to one church dance. The.

Noah Rasheta [00:07:49] The experience from on the social side was. Was very different than what I imagined it would have been had I stayed in Texas. And that's because the. My social life in Mexico was within the framework of family and Catholicism and private school.

Noah Rasheta [00:08:12] And then church felt like something that we go to on Sundays. And. And then we did do seminary and seminary back then was the early morning seminary, and Nick and I were the only ones who could drive and had a car. So we would go around and pick up everyone for our seminary class. So if we missed or if we were late, everyone was late. So we were pretty good and diligent about being there on time. So when it comes to the songs, like, I feel like the formative years where I would have had a lot of the social activity and, yeah, I guess the songs and stuff, it's like, I remember very young in Texas and the typical songs and then Mexico, where you had a lot of those same songs, but a lot of them you didn't.

Noah Rasheta [00:09:02] And I know that because later, after my mission and moving to Utah, I would hear certain primary songs and think, I've never Heard this.

John Dehlin [00:09:10] Yeah. The Spanish hymnic was different.

Noah Rasheta [00:09:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:12] And there wasn't a children's hymn book for primary yet. In Spanish. Yeah. Yeah.

Noah Rasheta [00:09:17] Well, that makes sense. Why a lot of it was very new.

John Dehlin [00:09:20] Do you remember the hymn about brushing your teeth?

Noah Rasheta [00:09:22] No, I don't.

John Dehlin [00:09:23] The Spanish hymnal, Mistientes no me lava re unino exclamo. They had a. They. In the Spanish hymn book, they had a hymn about brushing your teeth.

Noah Rasheta [00:09:34] Wow. I do recognize the. That tone you're singing is familiar.

John Dehlin [00:09:41] They also had jolly old St. Nicholas in the Spanish hymnal, which I thought was weird.

Noah Rasheta [00:09:46] Oh, wow. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:48] Mi querido, Santa Claus, Vinay escuchar. Anyway, I always thought that was interesting.

Noah Rasheta [00:09:54] That is interesting.

John Dehlin [00:09:55] You know what they would put in a Spanish hymnbook for kids, but not in an English hymnbook for kids. Okay. So as you're getting into high school, there's this theology. I don't want to say indoctrination, because that's unkind, but there's this theology that you absorb about, like, God. My parents and I were chosen before we came to the earth, and God sent us here to be Saturday's warriors to prepare the world for Jesus, and Jesus died for us. And I am a sinner, but through Jesus, I can have my sins forgiven, and I want to have an eternal family and go to the temple. How much of that theology, plan of happiness, plan of salvation, however you would have thought about it, did you even contemplate or absorb through your senior year of high school, let's say? Or not.

Noah Rasheta [00:10:43] I mean, I remember having all the typical teachings and the narrative that you learn within the church through seminary and going to church. But I don't think it stuck the way that it normally would because simultaneously at school, I had theology and philosophy, all from the Catholic framework. And I remember being able to reconcile the notion of opposing beliefs and room for the potential of multiple things being true. And I was experiencing that at the same time, culturally, because I identified as an American living in Mexico, but also a Mexican living the American experience. So I remember singing at school, singing the national anthem the way that you would and feeling a sense of pride for Mexico's national anthem.

Noah Rasheta [00:11:39] But I would feel the same when I would sing the US national anthem. So I think that same sentiment crossed over into my worldview at the time, and I held space for, yes, this is probably what this is. But then over here, yeah, this might be what it is, too. And it wasn't until I went on my mission that that solidified into one predominant worldview. Which was the LDS one for me.

Childhood, Personality, and Being a Twin

Margi Dehlin [00:12:06] How would you speak about your personality growing up as a boy? So maybe before high school, and also your experience of being a twin?

Noah Rasheta [00:12:17] Yeah. Oh, that's. That's a good. That's a fun one to think about. So I'll start with the twin, because that's a very unique experience to have another you and to be able to see yourself in someone else and to try to delineate what makes me me and what makes us us.

Noah Rasheta [00:12:38] And we were a very cohesive pair all the way till, I think it was our senior year in high school was the first time that I went through wanting to discover who I am. And I remember it started with a thought. And the thought was, we were very social. We had a lot of friends, people like us. And then I remember thinking, but do people like me?

Noah Rasheta [00:13:02] They like us, but is it, do they like him or do they like me, or do they like us? And I started to question, would I have these same friends if it was just me, or would these friends like me if Nick was no longer part of the picture? And I genuinely doubted. I thought, I don't know. I don't know if people would like me. So I wanted to somewhat figure out, who am I?

Noah Rasheta [00:13:29] And that was the first time in our lives that we really separated our friends. Like, I had a very close friend that became my friend. He developed a friendship with someone else that was like his best friend. And I think that lasted most of the senior year intensely, about half where it was like, I don't want to do things as us. I want to do my things with my friends.

Noah Rasheta [00:13:51] And that. I think that was an important formative experience for me. And it wasn't. So that ended when I went on a mission. And then that was the first time that I really was just me. There's no influence of me as a twin. And I remember on my mission in a home, we were talking with a family, and I was cracking jokes. And when I realized everybody here is laughing at something I just said, a part of me wanted to look over my shoulder, like, did I do that? Nick's not here. He didn't influence that. And that's when I started to realize that I'm fun, too, and that I would have friends, people would like me for me. So that's the twin part. And then the remind me what the other.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:38] It was your personality. Like, how would you describe yourself as a boy growing up?

Noah Rasheta [00:14:42] Okay, yeah. So my personality growing up. And for this, I would go back to the we a lot of times I speak in we. Because our personality was very similar, Nick and I, but very curious in nature, very fun. Like, that's something that I think a lot of our friends liked us because we were always doing fun things. Nick and I are super adventurous.

Noah Rasheta [00:15:06] We went to the zoo, and while we were looking at things, Nick and I went and talked to the dolphin trainer and convinced the dolphin trainer to let us swim with the dolphins. And then we'd go tell my parents and they're like, what? How did. What happened? I'm like, yeah, we befriended the dolphin trainer and he said, we can come on Saturday. And sure enough, that's what we did.

Noah Rasheta [00:15:26] Or we got into skydiving at 16. Or we would build these really intricate boxes, like a fort that's made out of boxes that's designed to jump off the roof and you can land in the boxes to absorb your fall. We're always doing super adventurous, crazy stuff.

Noah Rasheta [00:15:46] So people liked hanging out with us. We were fun to be around. And I do feel a lot of that was my personality, but it was also his personality because we're still both that way today. So, yeah, I would say curious by nature might be one of the most defining ways that I would explain my personality.

Margi Dehlin [00:16:09] I love that.

Noah Rasheta [00:16:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:11] And along those lines, one more question about Mormonism. In your childhood and youth, was there any relationship, consciously or unconsciously, with. With a heavenly Father, with a loving God, prayer, a sense of worthiness, or a sense of like, hey, I need help with this or that, or I'm, I want to change this or that, or, you know, help guide me? Was there any form of that that you recall?

Noah Rasheta [00:16:39] Yeah, yeah, I would say there definitely was a very expected amount of that sense of, I know who I am, I know why I'm here, I pray regularly. I feel I'm being guided on my overall path and journey in life. At times, I would attribute the success of being able to start this or go do this other fun thing, because I prayed about it and it felt right, so I'm going to do it. I was very aware of what is typically taught as you have a loving relationship with a heavenly father who cares about you and is steering, you know, the direction of your life.

John Dehlin [00:17:26] So you were an I am a child of God or soy nihid idios Mormon. You know, he has sent me here. He leads me, guides me, he walks beside me, helps me find the way.

Noah Rasheta [00:17:36] Yeah, definitely.

John Dehlin [00:17:37] Okay, definitely.

Faith Fit in Teen Years Before the Mission

Margi Dehlin [00:17:38] I also have a follow up. Just in your teen years, especially before mission, how would you describe the overall fit of Mormonism? For you meaning like the lived part, the beliefs part, where. How easeful was it, as opposed to, like, this is hard work and it feeling like just a lot of effort to kind of do the things that are being asked of you. How would you describe that fit?

Noah Rasheta [00:18:10] Hmm. I don't recall it feeling like a difficult thing. I do recall. So in terms of the practice, how you practice being Mormon, because, for example, on Sundays we would go to the park like everyone else goes to the park. We would go buy a snow cone. And I never have had any thoughts of, I shouldn't be buying this. The one realm that I do remember was difficult for me was around the word of wisdom.

Noah Rasheta [00:18:44] Coffee, for example, is very common in the whole world. And in Mexico, the notion of not drinking coffee, it was extremely foreign. And there was a. A popular artist who had a song at the time that was popular. And in his song, he talks about, you know, Jesus is a verb, not a noun. And then at another part of the. Of the lyrics, he would say, and then there are these, like, strange beliefs, like Mormons who won't drink coffee because they think it's a sin, something like that in the lyrics. And I remember when that song was popular and friends would come up because, you know, I'm in a high school where there are two LDS kids, and it's my brother and I, and they would say, hey, and this song, Ricardo Arcona song, he mentions, you know, coffee.

Noah Rasheta [00:19:35] Mormons think coffee's a sin. Is that true? And I remember I never had a good explanation other than like, yeah, I guess it is. And they would immediately say, well, why? It's like, I don't know, because I knew. I knew at the time I couldn't say caffeine because other caffeine was okay, and I couldn't say hot drinks because hot chocolate was okay. So I just didn't have a way to answer it other than I kind of don't know. But I used to dread when that song was really popular. I dreaded the conversation. So that's one of the most huge

John Dehlin [00:20:08] on my mission in 88, 89. Jesus Verbo.

Noah Rasheta [00:20:13] You know the song.

John Dehlin [00:20:14] Oh, yeah. It was huge in Guatemala. And I didn't have good answers for that either.

Noah Rasheta [00:20:18] I know.

John Dehlin [00:20:19] Yeah.

Noah Rasheta [00:20:20] People would be playing the song. Someone's gonna ask me.

John Dehlin [00:20:24] Yeah, no substantive evil, huh? Yeah. Yeah. Fun. Okay. Yeah.

Noah Rasheta [00:20:30] I love that song.

John Dehlin [00:20:31] Oh, yeah, for sure. That was big. That was big on my mission. Okay. So, yeah, I was gonna make the comment that Mark Twain is famous for saying one thing, you know, that Travel is fatal to prejudice. And it's almost like your Catholic, Mormon, Mexican upbringing gave you an expanded worldview that was probably going to anesthetize you to some forms of Mormon ultra orthodoxy, you know?

Noah Rasheta [00:21:02] Yeah, I would agree with that. And then.

John Dehlin [00:21:05] Or inoculate. I should say inoculate, not anesthetize. Yeah.

Noah Rasheta [00:21:09] In my experience, it. That worldview was more open and more curious. And then I went on a mission.

John Dehlin [00:21:16] Yeah.

Noah Rasheta [00:21:17] And then that kind of tightened the window and closed it. And I do remember going through a phase of guilt, like, oh, I was not living right. And I started to close my worldview more. And on my mission, unfortunately, there were times I felt shame around my parents, for example, or I really looked up to my mission president. I still do. He was a really neat person, and we had a really special bond. He and I got along really well on my mission. I ended up being an assistant to him. And I remember thinking, when I'm done and I go home, I don't know if I want him to meet my family. Because I was ashamed that if he meets my family, he'll see that they're kind of more gray. Yeah. And by then I had adopted the. Your, you know, your. Your hot or cold, Right? No, lukewarm.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:15] You moved to more of the binary.

Noah Rasheta [00:22:16] I did, I did, yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:20] I made you a little bit ashamed of your parents.

Noah Rasheta [00:22:22] It did, yeah. Yep.

Serving a Mission in South America

John Dehlin [00:22:25] And what country again? You said in South America, right?

Noah Rasheta [00:22:27] In Ecuador. Ecuador, Guayaquil.

John Dehlin [00:22:30] And overall, how did you enjoy your mission?

Noah Rasheta [00:22:34] So I really enjoyed my mission experience. When I arrived, I saw the map in the mission office that had all the areas, and I knew that they were going to be opening the Galapagos at some point. And I remember feeling a very clear like, I'm going there. And when they opened that, I did. I was one of the two missionaries that got to go out there.

John Dehlin [00:23:00] That's what Charles Darwin did his stuff, right?

Noah Rasheta [00:23:02] Yes. The Charles Darwin Research Station is there on the island where we lived.

John Dehlin [00:23:07] Was your mission one of those Latin American missions that had hundreds of baptisms a month in the mission, it was

Noah Rasheta [00:23:14] right before the mission president, who was there while I was there, kind of stopped it. And I heard all these horror stories of, you know, filling the back of a truck with water. We're going to go play basketball. Any kid who wants to come join us here, get baptized first. You know, I heard of all those stories that had happened prior to the tenure of my mission president. And he cleaned all that up. And he really reinforced this idea of, we're Looking for the people who are genuinely looking for this, and it's not just a numbers game.

Noah Rasheta [00:23:50] And that worked well for me because that's how I approached it. When I was getting ready to leave, my aunt, my very Catholic aunt, said, good luck on your mission, but please remember, don't try to convert everyone. Only convert the people who are looking for this in their life. And that stuck with me because it made me realize, like, I don't want to go out there and approach this. Like, hey, everybody needs this. I believed that everybody needed it, but I didn't want to approach it with that mindset of, I'm going to force this on everyone I knew. Just like my dad had that happen in his life where there was a time in his life that this was a way of living that was going to be much more healthy and skillful for him. I wanted to find people like that, and that did influence a lot of how I approached my tactics on the mission.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:42] That's so valuable.

Noah Rasheta [00:24:43] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:44] Yeah. I was curious if you had any type of resistance, like, what your experience was, moving into sort of a high control area, like a mission can be. Did you experience your mission as having a lot of control around when you went to bed, what activities you could do, especially kind of given your Mormon background up until that point. Do you remember that being a shock? Or how did you respond to, and did you even experience a high control mission? And if so, like, how did you work that through?

Noah Rasheta [00:25:23] Yeah, I don't recall having thoughts around this is controlling. I remember appreciating the discipline and the routine and knowing that I wake up at this time and we read scriptures from this time to this time. Like, I appreciated all that. And I never saw that as high control or it didn't conflict with me in any way. The one thing that did conflict with me was on my mission was the first time I encountered, through other missionaries, the idea that every other worldview is evil. And it was particularly around Catholicism. So this was.

Noah Rasheta [00:26:04] It was there during the turn of the century, or was it the century? Yeah, 2000. So I was there for the whole Y2K scare and all of that. But around that time was the Jubilee that was being celebrated in Catholicism with Pope John Paul ii. And he had a.

Noah Rasheta [00:26:25] So I was celebrating all this in school, right in high school, right before my mission, and he had a. A CD that came out with him singing the Lord's Prayer in Latin. And I loved it. It was one of the songs I listened to on my mission. And so I had, like, most Catholic People did at the time an affection for John Paul ii. He was like the, I don't know, the Gordon B. Hinckley of the Popes, you know, and on my mission, then suddenly other missionaries would talk about the Catholic Church is the whore of all the earth, and he's essentially, you know, being led by Satan.

Noah Rasheta [00:27:05] And it really offended me because I thought, no, no, no, this is like my, the sweetest woman in the world. My grandma loves this guy. I've listened to countless of his teachings and sermons. He's a good guy. He's a sweet, kind person.

Noah Rasheta [00:27:20] And I did not like that narrative that I was encountering among other missionaries that, hey, we're out here doing this super righteous work and we're, you know, really sticking it to the devil and his servant John Paul II and, and the church which is the whore of all the earth. And I would get very defensive of the Catholic Church to other missionaries and, and I would always explain, look, this person may be misled and maybe doesn't realize that, but this is not an evil person that's intentionally spreading evil.

Noah Rasheta [00:27:54] And it would surprise me that other missionaries just didn't view it that way. They're like, no, every other system out here is evil. It's intended to lead people astray from the righteous path, which is ours. So that was, that was an area of conflict for me to genuinely believe, yes, I am on the right path, but the other path is not evil.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:16] Right.

John Dehlin [00:28:17] How did you, were you made aware? I mean, I'm pretty sure the Book of Mormon. It's been a while since I've read it, but I'm pretty sure the Book of Mormon says there's only two churches. The Church of the Lamb of God or whatever and the Church of the Devil. And then of course, the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith incorporated a lot of the anti Catholic rhetoric of the early 1800s, such that any reasonable reading of the Book of Mormon, it calls the Catholic Church the great and abominable whore of all the earth. Kind of, you know, that's the rhetoric in the Book of Mormon that Joseph Smith wrote into it.

John Dehlin [00:28:51] And then there was Bruce R. McConkie's book Mormon Doctrine, where he literally said that the Catholic Church was the Church of the devil. Did you absorbed the first around the Book of Mormon and did you ever hear anyone talk about the second? And then did you have to reconcile that with your more compassionate feelings towards the Catholic Church?

Noah Rasheta [00:29:17] Yes, I did. I encountered Mormon doctrine on my mission. It was one of the books that would float around and it felt like, oh, if you spend time and read that, it just equips you with all the tools you need to be the most gung ho best missionary you can be. And I do remember encountering that thought and feeling like, okay, maybe that's true. I mean, it must be if that's what it says in here.

Noah Rasheta [00:29:43] But I was very opposed to, like, but we don't say that, especially to a Catholic person, because that's not going to help. So I do remember believing that. I guess it is, because that's what I'm being told. But I knew, like, well, I would never tell my aunt or my grandma or someone like that. I'm not going to tell them that. I would try to steer them toward the truth without insulting them.

Noah Rasheta [00:30:10] And that's what bothered me. The missionaries wanted to just come and be like, hey, guess what? You belong to the great and abominable. And I thought, no, that's just never going to work.

John Dehlin [00:30:21] There's that quote. Not all things that are true are useful. Full.

Noah Rasheta [00:30:24] Yeah, that's right.

John Dehlin [00:30:27] Well, that's. That's smart. Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:29] I was going to ask you really quickly. How did you experience being separated from your brother during. Yeah, like, did you write letters? How was that for you?

Noah Rasheta [00:30:39] Yeah, so I mentioned right before going on a mission, we had kind of separated a little and we were trying to figure ourselves out when it was time to go on a mission. We had kind of come back together and we were super close and great friends. Then being on the mission, I think strengthened that because we were writing all the time.

Noah Rasheta [00:31:02] It brought a lot of comfort to me to know that he was out there experiencing a lot of the same things that I was. And in fact, we had a remarkable amount of similarities on our mission. We would usually find out within a letter or two that we were going through all the same experiences. Like, oh, I just became a district leader. Oh, so did I. Or zone leader, or even in the office as assistants to the president. Like, we mirrored each other in so many ways. I was the one who went out to the most remote part of our mission. Well, he did too, on his.

Noah Rasheta [00:31:37] To the. There's the one area that's in the jungle that you might go to. He went there. So we had a lot of very similar experiences and some fun twin moments before either of us knew that we were both in the office. I went to the airport to pick up a batch of missionaries that were flying in. And as they were walking towards us, I noticed they were all whispering to each other. And as they got even closer they said, elder Rasheta. And I was like, yeah. They're like, how did you get here?

Noah Rasheta [00:32:08] This is where I'm serving. And they're like, but no, you just took us to the airport. I was like, oh, where did you come from? Bolivia? They're like, yes. And they're like, how did you do that? And I was like, well, let me tell you, that was my twin. And then we're driving to the mission office, and they're like, you guys even drive the same.

Noah Rasheta [00:32:26] So we had a lot of those types of fun twin experiences that I think brought us closer in our friendship because we were having shared experiences.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:36] Yeah. Yeah.

Post-Mission Life and Getting Married

John Dehlin [00:32:38] All right. So that sounds like an amazing mission. So you finish your mission early, 2000s?

Noah Rasheta [00:32:44] Yeah, I came home. 2001. January of 2001.

John Dehlin [00:32:48] Okay.

Noah Rasheta [00:32:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:49] And. Yeah. Did you go back to Mexico or something else?

Noah Rasheta [00:32:53] I went back to Mexico, spent a few months there, and realized both of us wanted to go to college in the US and at the time, we now knew friends and mission companions who lived in Utah and decided we wanted to come to Utah to go to school.

John Dehlin [00:33:13] So you came to where?

Noah Rasheta [00:33:15] So our. The original plan was to try to get into byu. We had a bit of a unique situation in the sense that we are American citizens who don't. We didn't have a high school diploma or ged. We have a Mexican high school diploma. So we were in this weird gray area where to use our school credentials and to meet the qualifications of an international student, you had to have a visa. You can't get a visa if you're an American citizen.

Noah Rasheta [00:33:45] So to get in as an American, you had to have your high school qualifications, which we didn't have because they were international. So BYU finally was like, you're kind of an odd case. Just go to another school, get a certain amount of hours, then transfer in. So that was our plan. And we went to UVSC at the time, which is now uvu, but then never left. Stayed there and really enjoyed that experience as well.

John Dehlin [00:34:10] Okay. And I'm assuming you started dating.

Noah Rasheta [00:34:14] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:34:15] There.

Noah Rasheta [00:34:15] Yeah. So in. In school, the first is the first day of living in Utah. The family we were living with, their youngest did ballroom, and she had a recital. That night we went to the recital, and I remember another couple dancing, an older couple, and watching them and thinking, whoa, what is this? And how do I meet someone like her? And suddenly I was very interested in ballroom. So I started taking ballroom lessons and classes. And then my entire college experience was influenced by that because I ended up getting on the Ballroom team and traveling competitively all throughout college, was on a scholarship. And all of my closest friends in my whole college experience are all my ballroom friends from those ballroom years.

John Dehlin [00:35:10] I remember BYU competed internationally and often won. So, I mean, I'm guessing UVU had a similar track record.

Noah Rasheta [00:35:18] Yeah, UVSC at the time was the other predominant force for ballroom.

John Dehlin [00:35:25] So when you see Dancing with the Stars or, you know, whatever.

Noah Rasheta [00:35:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:30] Mormons be dancing.

Noah Rasheta [00:35:31] That's right. You know, a lot of the original dancers in the first season, those are friends of mine, choreographers that I had worked with or dance partners that I

John Dehlin [00:35:42] had, like, names people would recognize.

Noah Rasheta [00:35:43] Yeah, yeah, definitely.

John Dehlin [00:35:45] Who you want to share.

Noah Rasheta [00:35:47] Louis was one of the choreographers that would come do all of our team stuff. Ashley Del Grosso was her younger sister, was a dance partner on our team. I had several routines with her. Yeah, Several of those early dancers were people that I knew.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:09] I think it's so interesting to look at our stories and, like, moments like that that seem kind of serendipitous. The idea that, you know, first night you're here or really soon, and you end up going to a ballroom, and then that leads to a whole area of your life is born from that. That's just so fascinating. And a community, it sounds like.

Noah Rasheta [00:36:33] Yeah, yeah. My entire college experience was shaped by that one recital that I went to. And prior to that, I mean, I was the type of person that at a. At a social gathering or at a wedding or a party, you're not going to see me on the dance floor. I was too embarrassed. Like, you know, maybe at the end of the night for the last dance, I'll go out there for a little bit. But I, like most of my high school friends, later, when they found out, wait, you're doing ballroom and traveling? Like, what happened to you?

Noah Rasheta [00:37:03] It was a. It was a very formative experience, and I really enjoyed it. And it was through those social circles when I was leaving, so my last year of college, that through mutual friends, I met my wife, and she was just starting on the ballroom team. So, yeah, I mean, that was. That's how my whole marriage started. And so, yeah, it shaped a lot of my life.

Margi Dehlin [00:37:32] Wow. Yeah. I'm curious, too, like, how you experienced the church in America, like, the. How it felt. You coming back? Well, no. You arriving at UVU and experience, like, what. How did you experience it?

Noah Rasheta [00:37:50] Yeah, church culture. When I first moved to Utah and we were living with a family, their daughter is the one that did ballroom. That's a family that I had known for since my early childhood. So they felt like. They feel like family. In fact, one of the daughters of that family is who my twin brother is married to. So they our family now.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:11] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:12] Anissa.

Noah Rasheta [00:38:13] Yes. Anessa. A really fun family.

John Dehlin [00:38:17] Of Hendrix. No. What was the last name?

Noah Rasheta [00:38:20] Yes. Hendricks.

John Dehlin [00:38:21] Yeah. Yeah.

Noah Rasheta [00:38:22] And it was two blended families, so Hendricks and Thurmans, and then we sometimes refer to them as the Thermix clan. Just a really, really fun group of. Of people.

John Dehlin [00:38:33] And I'm realizing we. We interviewed Megan, Jake, Abhow. That was their name at the time. Earlier on Mormon stories.

Noah Rasheta [00:38:41] That's right. Y. Yeah. So then I started going to a singles ward. It was a BYU singles ward. And I remember encountering, again, some of that really orthodox doctrine that felt it started. It affected me even back then, even coming home from a mission where I felt like I'm about as orthodox as orthodox can be, and yet I would still encounter other frameworks or ideas that felt like, ooh, I don't know about that. Particularly around marriage or dating or things that you should or shouldn't do. And it was like, you don't need to be happy with who you marry as long as you share in common the faith. I remember the counselor in that ward was like, you guys should not be dating outside of this ward. Everyone here has someone here that's compatible enough, and you should all be getting married. Ideas like that. That I was like, I don't know about that.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:37] Yeah. That's so interesting, because I do feel like when we talk about sort of this identity that's created in the church, you have, like, a self. You have a self that differentiates in moments of being like, I'm not sure about that, as opposed to being fully merged. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Even then.

Noah Rasheta [00:39:59] Yeah. And then I feel like some of the orthodox approach that I had adopted on the mission started to slowly revert back to a more nuanced approach because of my upbringing in Mexico. And, you know, Mexico, of all places is one of those places where, as far as the rigid rules of how things work, you. You do live in a gray world, you know, like, if you get pulled over by a police officer, it's easier to transact in the moment and bribe them than it is to take a ticket and all of the bureaucracy of going to handle a ticket. So things like that, that started to seep back in, where it's like, yes, there's the spirit of the law and there's the letter of the law, and it's really skillful. To understand both of those.

John Dehlin [00:40:52] Yeah. So you fell in love.

Noah Rasheta [00:40:55] I did, yeah. So I started dating, got married, did all of the, you know, the traditional path that you do. Married in the temple.

John Dehlin [00:41:06] Which temple?

Noah Rasheta [00:41:07] It was the Salt Lake Temple. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:12] Nice.

Noah Rasheta [00:41:13] Yeah. I remember that day was stressful because I. I had secured the marriage license, but I didn't know I needed to take it with me. And I had family from out of town and from Mexico. Everyone was here for the day of. And we're standing in line to get checked in at the temple, and I heard the person at the front desk asking the couple in front of us, do you have your license? I remember thinking, I wonder why I need my driver's license for this. And then it occurred to me, oh, the marriage license. So that was a very stressful event. I had to get my older brother to get it and bring it, and it delayed our.

Noah Rasheta [00:41:48] We missed out on the room that we had assigned to us, and it ended up forcing us into a unique little room that isn't used. Like, they. They were able to squeeze us in, which later felt like, okay, that's kind of neat that it worked out that way. But it was a very stressful moment.

Noah Rasheta [00:42:05] And, yeah, went through the whole experience of getting married in the temple and. And having people from my side of the family that are not LDs, plenty of non LDs there. I remember that was difficult for me because I felt like you don't get to participate in this full experience, but you do get to participate in the celebration after.

Marriage, Temple, and Shared Mormon Faith

John Dehlin [00:42:29] So we kind of explain to never Mormons why some of your family members weren't able to attend your marriage.

Noah Rasheta [00:42:37] Yeah. So I had close family from Mexico coming to the wedding and not realizing until they got there. And we're talking that you don't actually get to be at the wedding if they're like, well, wait a second, why? And it's like, well, because you're not lds.

Noah Rasheta [00:42:54] And even if you were, like, you'd have to be. You'd have to, like, meet the requirements to enter the temple and have a temple recommend. And that. I remember that was foreign for them. They're like, well, but why wouldn't we be able to watch you get married?

Noah Rasheta [00:43:08] And I felt bad. It's like, I'm so sorry that, yes, I want you to be here, but you don't actually get to be here for the important part, but you get to celebrate with us after. That always sat wrong with me. Like, I always wished there was a way that close family members could be there for that particular part of the union of two people, you know?

John Dehlin [00:43:30] Yeah.

Noah Rasheta [00:43:32] So, yeah, that was still overall a great experience, I think. And then. And then had 20 years of marriage with its typical ups and downs, and then there were some pivotal moments in there as well. But then ultimately, before you get there,

John Dehlin [00:43:53] can I ask one question?

Noah Rasheta [00:43:54] Yes, of course.

John Dehlin [00:43:55] So when you got married, what plan or milestones were kind of what you agreed to kind of follow and pursue as a faithful Mormon couple?

Margi Dehlin [00:44:10] Just like, what was your map?

John Dehlin [00:44:12] What was the map?

Noah Rasheta [00:44:15] Yeah, that's a good question. I feel like it maybe wasn't discussed the way that it should be. Where it's like, well, what is your exact view on this or that? I think one thing that happens a lot in a shared faith is just the assumption that we're on the same page. And that was the case for us. So the marriage starts out, and then you start to iron out the little differences in how you approach the faith, but also the cultural differences in family dynamics, which can be quite different. You know, her family ecosystem and the way they operate is very different than my family and our ecosystem and how we operate.

Noah Rasheta [00:44:53] And then you rely on the shared part, which for us at the time was the faith. And it's like, well, I think we're going to follow this the way that we're supposed to. And then, sure, you encounter little things where it's like, but how do you interpret this particular thing versus how I do? And I don't feel that we had any friction.

Noah Rasheta [00:45:14] I feel like, for the most part, it was just working smooth. But maybe there were some parts of it that, unbeknownst to us at the time, weren't as skillful as they could have been. And I would say from, you know, looking back now, one of those, for me, would have been the overall belief that Heavenly Father is guiding my inspiration more so than hers. And at the time, you're taught, you know, in the temple that I look up to what Heavenly Father tells me, you look at me for what? Heavenly Father is guiding us.

John Dehlin [00:45:51] The husband covenants with God in the Mormon Temple, and the wife covenants to hearken to the husband.

Noah Rasheta [00:45:59] That's right.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:00] Not a direct line.

John Dehlin [00:46:01] As he hearkens to God, the wife hearkens to the husband.

Noah Rasheta [00:46:05] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:46:05] Yeah.

Noah Rasheta [00:46:06] And it's a patriarchal message. Yeah, it is. And unfortunately, that meant if we're discussing, like, where should we live, do we want to live in Utah, do we want to go to Arizona, closer to where my family might be, or career choices, we would discuss them. And if her opinion was different, than mine. Like, well, I want to live in Utah. For me, it was very easy to be like, well, too bad, because I feel like we shouldn't.

Noah Rasheta [00:46:34] And I feel like, as the head of the household, that, you know, that inspiration is more valuable or more authoritative than whatever you're feeling. And I mean, I hate to even admit that that was how I felt at the time, but it is.

Noah Rasheta [00:46:55] And, you know, those were unbeknownst to us, little moments of, well, that feels really crappy for the wife who's like, well, I really want this, but you won't even entertain it or give me the time of day to try to discuss it. And I didn't need to because I have been. I have felt that this other thing is what we should be doing.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:13] Yeah, that's really reflective, I feel like, of you. I'm curious if you'd be willing to go back just for a second and. And I'm. Because I would love to hear what you were looking for and, like, what was important to you in selecting a wife? Like, when you were thinking about partnership and what stood out to you? This is what I'm looking for.

Noah Rasheta [00:47:39] Yeah. Oh, that's a good question. I feel like, you know, I had been dating and there were people that. That I knew, friends that I liked. You know, you kind of. You're kind of getting a feel for what you want. And, and, and I didn't know it at the time, that the role that friendship would play in a relationship. You know, looking back, I would tell myself, you need to be. You need to have a solid friendship first, and then a relationship that's going to be healthy is a friendship on steroids.

Noah Rasheta [00:48:15] But I felt like friendship will happen. I've always been able to be friends with people, so the priority for me wasn't spend time and develop friendship. For me, the priority was, do they match? Are they LDs, and do they check all the boxes?

Noah Rasheta [00:48:35] So that was the primary one. And then, of course, attraction. So it felt like, well, if I'm attracted to this person, they're attracted to me. We're getting along. This is fun. We're both on the same overall wavelength of our belief system. Then there's no reason this isn't going to work.

John Dehlin [00:48:52] Really quickly, was there anything notable about the temple ceremony or your temple experiences that are worth mentioning, or were they not necessarily noteworthy for you at the time?

Noah Rasheta [00:49:04] So I do remember it was very odd. I didn't know what to expect. And I just remember thinking, wait, what are we doing? Why is this all so foreign to me? There's no hint of this in anything I've ever known or learned. So I do remember having that experience when I went through the temple, you know, to go on a mission.

Noah Rasheta [00:49:31] And then that was. It was just kind of like, okay, well, that was strange. But I'll just put that in the box of things I don't fully understand why we do them, and yet we do them. And then later, going through the temple for marriage, the. I don't really recall anything standing out other than feeling empowered in a way at the idea that, whoa, I am now the head of a household. Like, I have this tremendous responsibility that I need to live my life in a way that's always worthy because Heavenly Father is going to be steering me and through me, this family. I do remember feeling that sense of, my wife doesn't have to worry so much about this, like, but I do. I'm going to steer us in the right direction.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:50:20] Yeah. Okay. So you're married. You decide to move to Arizona and to settle. Kind of settle in Arizona at first.

Faith Crisis and Struggles in Marriage

Noah Rasheta [00:50:30] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:50:32] I do want to explore because one of the things that's been remarkable for me about you is how long you lived in a mixed faith marriage. Because I've known you. When did you first. When did you and I first talked as you became aware of Mormon's stories? Because I remember I was a student at Utah State University. I was walking around the track and for some reason, you and I had a phone call.

Noah Rasheta [00:50:55] Yeah, I remember that call. That would have been 2011 or 12.

John Dehlin [00:51:02] Okay. So there would have been maybe a year or two or three that would have preceded that. So without needing necessarily to get into what. Well, what caused your faith crisis. I think what I remember is something happened, and we don't have to even go there, but something happened to make you question or wonder about whether the church leaders were deceiving you. Right, yeah. Do you want to talk about just picking up at that point of your story.

Noah Rasheta [00:51:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:31] Or anything else.

Noah Rasheta [00:51:31] In fact, I'll go back a little just for context. So this is four years into my marriage where one of the dilemmas that we had was, where do we go? What are we going to do? I had selected at the time the career that I wanted to follow was flying helicopters. And I attended a flight school in Utah.

Noah Rasheta [00:51:54] And the flight school went bankrupt, like overnight. It was a national news thing. It was like a scandalous. Turns out they were running a Ponzi scheme type scenario. And all of the students at all of the locations nationwide, they robbed us of our money. Like we had prepaid for the whole flight training program.

Noah Rasheta [00:52:16] That was a really massive blow because my childhood dream was to fly helicopters. That was the time when I kind of realized, okay, this is a big thing. This is our first big hiccup that you encounter as a couple. Like, how do we navigate this?

Noah Rasheta [00:52:32] And again, what matters most, what I'm feeling, right? Everything that I feel Heavenly Father is telling me to do. I felt like we need to continue to pursue this path. And I'm gonna go to another flight school in Arizona and try to figure out how to keep this career going or this career choice and hoping that meanwhile, class action lawsuit, something's gonna help me with the dilemma that I'm in with this flight school.

Noah Rasheta [00:53:02] So we moved to Arizona. I do remember at that time also having the thought, in this family dynamic, I feel like I am a cog in a wheel. And the dynamic of this family, I'm just an addition to this ecosystem. And I didn't like that feeling. I thought, I want us to have our own traditions and build our own family dynamic and not feel like I just got inserted into this other larger family dynamic.

Noah Rasheta [00:53:34] So I thought moving away will do that. That's how we will develop our core identity as a family. So we moved to Utah. I don't remember. Or to Arizona. I don't remember if we talked in detail about that particular concern of mine. Actually, I do, I do remember mentioning that. And I remember her thinking, her saying, that's not what's going to happen. We are our own unique thing. And I was like, yeah, but I don't think that we actually are. Like, if you look at some of the other dynamics in the family, it feels like especially those of us who were the outsider marrying into this community, like we're the outsider and we just fit into your overall family dynamic.

John Dehlin [00:54:15] And if I can just tell you what, what I've experienced in Utah, and this may not be just a Mormon thing, I'm sure it's not. But like there are families in Utah where like everyone grows up in an area, all the kids go to high school in that area and then the kids all go off do their missions, get married, and then buy houses back in that same area and then raise their kids in that area. And all the cousins play together because they're all kind of neighbors and they all go over to the parents or the grandparents house on Sunday. And it's a very, I guess a more complicated way to describe it is an enmeshed family or an enlightened way would be to say it's a very connected and close family, but it's a very involved, interconnected experience where an individual, family unit and in laws could sometimes feel very absorbed or alienated or like you said, a cognitive machine.

John Dehlin [00:55:13] I don't know if I described your in laws, but I mean, I see that a lot in Utah. Is that in the universe of what you experienced?

Noah Rasheta [00:55:20] Yeah, that feels extremely accurate to what I was experiencing.

John Dehlin [00:55:24] Yeah.

Noah Rasheta [00:55:25] And I. So part of the desire to live in Arizona was to pursue my flying, but also to establish ourselves as a unique identity. So we moved there and everything seems to be working. And then I realized this helicopter stuff is more expensive than I would have anticipated. I don't have enough to, to pay for the program again, twice.

Noah Rasheta [00:55:52] It's looking like the way that the owner of this other flight school, he was very premeditated. I'm not going to recover anything. So my dream suddenly felt like I'm not going to obtain this dream. And at the time I didn't express that well or process it well with her, I wish I would have been more clear of, hey, I'm going through heartbreak because my dream is now on its final threads. And this is like devastating to me. But I was just hell bent on, I'll find another way. Maybe I'll join the Mesa Police Department. They have a helicopter unit. Maybe with luck I'll work my way into that.

Noah Rasheta [00:56:35] And I'm just like unilaterally making our decisions of what we're going to do. And at the time she's experiencing more and more discontent that I will not entertain the thought of moving to Utah. And she. So she was, she was unhappy.

Noah Rasheta [00:56:52] I was unhappy, but not in the marriage. I was unhappy with the way my career was going. I had no clue how unhappy she was. And in that ecosystem there's a violation of trust in the marriage. And that was devastating for me because I didn't know that things were bad. When I started to sense that she wasn't happy, I started to course correct, like, well, what is it going to take? Do we need. Is it about Utah? I thought it was all centered around we don't live in Utah. And that's the problem. And I immediately said, okay, then let's go up there this weekend, I will look for jobs and we will move there.

Noah Rasheta [00:57:37] And that's what we did. And so we come to Utah that weekend, we're staying with her family and everything is working out. I do an interview and I get offered the job. All this happens within like three days. So again, I'M feeling like Heavenly Father is steering the ship. Like, this can't be a coincidence, right?

Noah Rasheta [00:58:00] And when I expressed the news that we're going to be moving to Utah, and I'm thinking, this is going to solve everything now. She'll be happy. She, she. I could sense she was like, well, maybe you can come up here and start working. I'll just wrap things up down there and then eventually work my way up. And I was like, wait a second. Like, I thought, you've been chomping at the bit to get here.

Noah Rasheta [00:58:22] So that was the moment that I sensed, something's off, something doesn't feel right. And unfortunately, through that exploration while we were in Utah came the discovery that things were not right. Something was going on. And that was devastating for me because that's. In the midst of. My dream of flying has collapsed. I didn't navigate that super well with her. I didn't share the depth of the pain I was in at the time. Then comes this, and then I feel totally blindsided and rejected. But also comes the insecurity at that point of, I guess I can't judge because I would have bet all my money, I would have bet my loved ones lives on if someone said, something's wrong in your marriage.

Noah Rasheta [00:59:12] Like, if someone from the outside could have said, here's some red flags. This is what's probably happening, I would have said, no, that's definitely not what's happening. This person would never do that. That's how certain I was of my reality.

Noah Rasheta [00:59:25] So to have that, that moment of the rug pulled out from under your feet was. Was devastating for me. And so. And I said, okay, well, we need to leave now. And we moved to Utah. It was like in a. In the span of a weekend. I rented a truck, we packed all of our things and we move and everyone in our.

John Dehlin [00:59:47] And were there kids at this point?

Noah Rasheta [00:59:48] Yes, yes. Our first. We had one child. He was one at the time. And so we decided, okay, we've got to leave Arizona. Which meant she had to quit her job, like, with zero warning. She just had to leave. I had to leave. We drive up here and at that point I thought, I don't think I can. I can't do this. I was very hurt. And I said, you go to your parents. I'm going to stay with this family that I had lived with when I first moved to Utah, Anessa's family. I said, I'll just move in there. And I want Raiko, our son. I want him with me.

Noah Rasheta [01:00:30] As I figure out what we're going to do. But again, he's really young, he needs his mom. So I stayed there one night. He cried all night and I cried all night. And I was like, I can't do this. I can't lose him too. It's like he needs her and I need him. So what do we do?

John Dehlin [01:00:54] So you need her.

Noah Rasheta [01:00:55] I said, so I guess we can try to make this work. And I remember thinking, I don't care if I'm in a home, that if this is a loveless marriage, then that's what it is until we can sort this out. But we need to be under the same roof.

Noah Rasheta [01:01:11] So that's what we did. After one day away, I moved back into the home with her family at her parents house. And the three of us are together again. And we're just trying to make it work. And we go through this, you know, it's a long process to recover and to establish trust and to feel safety again. And as we're going through that whole process, I started to internalize that this probably happened because I'm not righteous enough, because I'm not.

Noah Rasheta [01:01:43] I don't have the depth of understanding in the scriptures that I should and things like that. Which, you know, ironically, looking back, you think, well, that's not at all what it is. This wasn't. This isn't about you, right? This is about the person and where they are mentally and in their emotional and mental health. Like, this is not me. I didn't know that at the time. I was like, this is my fault. I need to. I remember thinking, I will only listen to church music from now on. I will not watch any TV, nothing of the world. It was like, absorb yourself 100% in church stuff.

Noah Rasheta [01:02:21] And I started reading all the books, revisiting books from my mission, Mormon doctrine, just everything I could get my hands on. I only wanted church stuff. And that lasted two or three months. And the deeper I went with it, the more I started. That's when I first started to really encounter frameworks and stories and ideas that I did not know about. And they were deeply concerning to me at the point. To the point where I really started to doubt everything at that point. And because of the sensitivity I had at the time around trust and marital fidelity, betrayal and betrayal. What I was encountering with Joseph Smith was very troubling for me.

Noah Rasheta [01:03:09] I had never really gone deep into why was there polygamy, how was it practiced? Because it was uncomfortable and I didn't need to know details. So I didn't. But then this Forced me. As I was trying to become super righteous and super knowledgeable.

Noah Rasheta [01:03:28] It forced me to look at things I didn't want to look at. And then I started to sense this. The animosity and anger that I felt towards people who are unfaithful, particularly men. I started to see it in Joseph Smith. And because I never knew this person well, that the violation of trust happened with.

Noah Rasheta [01:03:53] But I did knew Joseph. And so my anger got redirected. And then suddenly I found myself processing these deep emotional wounds, directing the frustration and the anger at Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and others who practiced polygamy.

John Dehlin [01:04:11] Because Joseph and Brigham Young both took on plural wives that were already married to other men.

Noah Rasheta [01:04:15] That's right. Yeah. And reading some of the details, like rough stone rolling around, some of those connections to me felt like, oh, that could have been getting caught in infidelity and then spinning the story, like Pharaoh. Yeah, yeah. And I didn't want to assume because, like, I don't know, but it sure feels like. And that was enough to feel all the feelings of my wound transferred onto this person. So then I would say that was the moment that it felt like, now the full, full rug has been pulled out from under my feet. Because the stability of my relationship that I relied on up until that point, feeling like this is 100% the right thing.

Noah Rasheta [01:04:59] This was. We were locked and loaded. You know, that turned out to not be what I thought. And then the church. And then I suddenly felt like I lost all ability to. To trust my view of reality. It's like, I know this person would never do that, and they did. I know the church would never.

Noah Rasheta [01:05:20] And yet it seemed like maybe they did. And I was just. I was genuinely stumped. Like, I didn't know where to go or what to do, but I felt at the time I no longer had something firm to stand on. Like, that rug has been pulled out from under. You're literally in free fall. Where do you go with that? What do you do? And that's when I started to just dig everywhere. Like, what's out there? That's when I encountered Mormon stories. And that's when I called you. And I remember I was sitting in my car, so I had an office and employees at the time.

Noah Rasheta [01:05:55] I had a company manufacturing smartphone accessories. And I didn't want anyone to know that I'm going to be talking to someone about things you don't talk about. And I was sitting in my car talking to you, and you were so kind and gracious to just hear me out, hear my story. And it felt like I'm talking to someone who understands a lot of these things, which now the focal point was my faith, what's happening with my faith.

Noah Rasheta [01:06:21] And it felt comforting to know, okay, there's a lot more out there, and there are people who are trying to navigate this, too. And at the time, the intent of all of it was, how do we make sense of this, to hold onto it? There was no intent to leave any of it. The intent was, how do I wrap my head around what I'm learning?

Noah Rasheta [01:06:43] I knew I couldn't talk about it at home because I felt like, well, now that's for sure the final straw that will end the marriage. We were already in a very precarious, sensitive space of we're trying to slowly recover from something that happened.

Noah Rasheta [01:06:59] So I don't want to add this as another thing to put on the table. Like, now we've got to address this. So I reached out to my twin brother. You know, who else knows me better than him? And he had a very strong aversion to the topic and immediately shut it down. Like, no, we don't, Anita. You don't think about that. Don't talk about that.

Noah Rasheta [01:07:19] And then I think I let another month or two go by, and it's just festering, and I'm just still consuming everything I can from everywhere, listening to every one of the podcast episodes that you had produced. And then I reached out to him one day, just emotionally distraught, and I was crying, and I was like, I have no one to talk to about this stuff. You know me better than anyone. I need you. I need you to be, like the person I can talk to. And he immediately shifted and was like, you're right. That's exactly who I am. And I'm going to help you. Let's navigate this together.

Noah Rasheta [01:07:55] We're going to find answers to all of the questions, and we're going to sort this out. And again, his intent and my intent at the time was we're going to make sense of this, and this will strengthen our resolve and our testimony in the long run, and we're going to be okay, because the core belief still is this is the true path.

Noah Rasheta [01:08:14] So I start sharing with him. He goes down the rabbit hole. And then after a few months of that rabbit hole and deep dive, he tells me one day on the phone, I don't think I want to have anything to do with this anymore. Yeah, yeah. And I was like, oh, no. I did not want that to happen. I felt this.

John Dehlin [01:08:36] That wasn't what you were Going for

Noah Rasheta [01:08:37] that was not what I was going for. And I felt guilty. And I felt like, this is why you're not supposed to talk about this stuff. Look what I've done. I've affected his testimony, and he's sharing with his wife, so they simultaneously decide this is not what they want in their lives, and they exit. And then my parents start calling and they're like, what's going on with Nick? And I was like, I can't tell you. You're gonna have to talk to him. Cause I knew I had all this guilt. Now I can't tell my parents, but Nick did talk to them. And then my parents were like, well, as they went down the rabbit hole as well, they said, well, I don't think this is for us either. And they all left me hanging.

Navigating a Mixed-Faith Marriage

John Dehlin [01:09:20] So your parents and Nick stopped believing in the Mormon Church?

Noah Rasheta [01:09:23] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:09:24] Oh, yeah. And you started it.

Noah Rasheta [01:09:27] I know. And then my wife's asking me, like, what's going on with your family? And I couldn't say in detail, everything. It was just like, oh, there's. I don't know, there's stuff happening. And I'm trying to tread lightly because again, I have this deep fear that that's going to end the marriage.

Noah Rasheta [01:09:46] And then there are aspects of it that aren't super relevant. But my mom, turns out she was like, I never really was fully into it. I've always been Catholic. And I'm like, what? That's its own story. And I can get to that later. But going to what you're asking with the mixed faith marriage. So this point comes to where I realize the key for a marriage to work is authenticity. You just have to be yourself.

Noah Rasheta [01:10:12] And at the risk of this ending my marriage, I'm going to be authentic and say, this is what I'm dealing with. This is how I view the world. And I don't know if any of this is what I thought it was, and I kind of come clean. Right.

Noah Rasheta [01:10:28] And that had the opposite effect of what I was expecting, because instead of being like, okay, well, then that means this is ending. It was almost like you stood with me at a time when things were really difficult and I did something very hurtful to you.

Noah Rasheta [01:10:48] I can stick with you while you navigate this and figure out what all this means. And for a moment, it felt comforting where I was like, okay, then I didn't expect to hear that. So thank you for supporting me. We're going to figure this out. With time, it turned into a little resentment. I'm like, wait a second. You're making it feel like these are the same thing.

Noah Rasheta [01:11:09] I intentionally did something hurtful to you by questioning my belief system. That's not the same thing. So as that evolved and we were, we learned to sort it out. It was scary at first, it was rocky at first, but I think it genuinely turned a page for us because then to a new extent, I could be me and she could be her, and it healed us. And we made it, you know, over a decade of having a mixed faith marriage where we were able to navigate and respect each other's differences and still allow each other's worldviews to influence the dynamic of the overall family. And that took effort, it took time to kind of shift from.

Noah Rasheta [01:11:58] It feels like mine is the second class citizen in the family to make it balanced and equal. That took time, but we did arrive there. And I'm very proud of how we navigated the mixed faith marriage. And I think in a lot of ways, the. The influence of an alternate worldview that I ended up bringing to the table in a lot of ways probably strengthened and helped her in her LDS worldview. And I can get to those details later when we're talking about worldviews, but I'll just say, as far as navigating the multi or the mixed faith marriage, I feel like we did a good job and I'm convinced that people can navigate that skillfully. There are ways to do that.

John Dehlin [01:12:48] Yeah. I've been doing this 21 years, and there are certain stories you hear that just never leave you. And yours was one. And part of it was just this. It's almost like a Chinese finger trap, because you would have never had your faith crisis if your wife hadn't had struggles, you know what I mean? Her struggles kicked off your faith crisis. But then when you had your faith crisis, there was a point where I remember you feeling like your marriage might be in jeopardy because she married a faithful Mormon and she and her family expected her to stay married to a faithful Mormon. And that blew my mind.

John Dehlin [01:13:30] And I really remember having a lot of empathy for that situation because in a sense, you're both victims. Neither of you are choosing all of this. You're just trying to make. Pick up the pieces. And you've got kids now, and so you're trying to, like, keep the family afloat, you know? Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:13:51] And that's. I think when you told me that, that's when you started reading about Buddhism because you were just desperate for a way to be okay in the midst of this Chinese finger trap. You were.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:04] Yeah, like, I was just thinking with grief and loss, if we're just talking about the area of. Of loss, like you had so many things fall, you know, in a small amount of time that really you were looking to in life, like your dream too. It sounds like that was something that was part of your kid brain, was this dream of flying helicopters, right?

Noah Rasheta [01:14:31] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:32] So having that as the. And then kind of all. So many towers going down, including, you know, let's just say an existing existential tower of this idea of coming to a place where you realize, I don't know, reality, I don't know what I don't know and what that feels like. So I guess what my question around all of that grief and loss during that time is just, did you suffer? Were you in a place of how did it feel for you at that time? Because it feels like a lot listening to it.

Noah Rasheta [01:15:08] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:10] How did you manage that? And did. And did it feel dark?

John Dehlin [01:15:14] It.

Noah Rasheta [01:15:14] It absolutely felt dark. It felt. That was the first time in my life that it occurred to me. Like, I think I understand why somebody could reach a point where they choose to not live. It made sense. I hadn't reached. I never reached that stage where it's an actual thought that I would entertain, but I did remember thinking, I can see why someone would entertain that, because it's painful and you just want the pain to end.

Noah Rasheta [01:15:43] So during that stage, and you have, like you said, these series of towers that are collapsing, I like to visualize them as, you know, in Indiana Jones where it's trying to cross the bridge and like, the different sections keep falling, and then at some point, like, that's it. Everything's collapsed. There's nothing to stand on.

Noah Rasheta [01:16:03] And it was a very painful place to be emotionally and hadn't had the chance to fully process or heal from, you know, from the previous one, let alone the one prior to that one, and let alone the one prior to that one. So going all the way back to like, your. Your childhood dream was just crushed.

Noah Rasheta [01:16:24] So during that stage, I do remember thinking, still believing there is a path and there is the truth out there. And I became determined to discover what that truth was. And I went into seeker mode and I started devouring books and podcasts in addition to what I was learning about my current belief system, Mormonism.

Noah Rasheta [01:16:53] I branched out and I wanted to understand the origins of Christianity and how the. The New Testament was written. And so I. As I start to go down this path, I. I continually find what feels like it's problematic at every junction. Every. Every worldview has Its, its issues. You know, I couldn't rely on Catholicism because for a moment I entertained that. It's like, that's even more problematic.

Noah Rasheta [01:17:22] Everything has its, it's ugly pieces when you look under the covers. And I, I encountered a. The, the great courses has a series called the Meaning of Life. And you, it's like, you know, the existential questions, who am I? Why am I here? What happens when we die? And what is the meaning of life presented by these major world traditions. And I remember listening through it was like a 15 hour lecture series.

Noah Rasheta [01:17:55] And it's just going through all the different ones. And I have a notebook and I'm literally taking notes, thinking I would encounter from this tradition, the answer is this. And then I'd be like, I don't know about that. It's like, okay, next. And I'm working my way down this list of lectures.

Noah Rasheta [01:18:12] And at the time, all I knew about Buddhism was like, quotes you'd see on social media by the Dalai Lama. Stuff like that always sounded, it sounded nice, but I didn't know what was the view underneath it. So in this lecture series, toward the end, I get to the presentation on Buddhism and I'll never forget, it opens up with, okay, we don't have the answers to these big questions.

Noah Rasheta [01:18:41] Buddhism is going to have you flip it on its head and sit with the question itself. Why the need to know? Who is the I that needs to know this stuff? And it was all about the questions, not about the answers. And I remember putting my pen in the notebook and just closing it for a minute because I was like, whoa, I've never thought about this from the perspective of not the answers, but let's look at the questions. Do these questions even matter? Are they relevant? Are they answerable?

Noah Rasheta [01:19:14] And that was the start of my, let's go down this rabbit hole. Like, I remember thinking, who thinks like that? Okay, tell me more. I want to, I want to know more about Buddhism. And as, as I learned more and more about Buddhism and understood like, the entire premise of it is that to understand the nature of suffering.

Noah Rasheta [01:19:37] And I, it just spoke to me and I was like, this is really healing stuff. I remember thinking, wait, why did I consider this a religion? This feels like this is human psychology. And what I'm getting to understand isn't external, the cosmos or a deity. It's like I'm getting to understand myself and the way the human mind works.

Noah Rasheta [01:20:01] So I just went down the rabbit hole and kept learning and kept reading. I think I read through about a hundred different books on Buddhism and parts that wouldn't make a lot of sense. Then I would read something in another book, and if you understand this concept, then this concept now makes more sense. And I just kind of connect. Kept connecting those dots. And then at some point felt like, okay, I think I understand the premise of what it's teaching. And it was simultaneously helping me at the time with my own internal pain and suffering.

Noah Rasheta [01:20:38] And I wanted to share it. The more I was learning, the more I wanted to share it with others. And I. Well, and I wanted to practice it. So that was the first part of it, is I want to adopt this as a. As a. A practice, a lifestyle, a philosophy.

Noah Rasheta [01:20:53] So I. I would host meditation classes, and people would come, and it's like, well, for this to really make more sense, let me explain where it's coming from. So then it was like meditation slash, a quick intro to Buddhism. And then with the intro to Buddhism was, well, tell me more. So the more I started practicing and discussing all of this, I. At some point, I thought, I'm going to just record all of this. Maybe I'll do a podcast. And the goal is to just kind of lay out the premise of what Buddhism is and what it teaches. At this point, I had been practicing it for probably three years. And I mean intensely. Like, it consumed me. It became everything that I did and read and studied was all Buddhism.

Discovering Buddhism After Mormonism

Margi Dehlin [01:21:41] Can I ask you a couple questions about that?

Noah Rasheta [01:21:43] Yeah, of course.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:44] So when you're talking about practicing it, what are some of the concepts that you remember? Just sort of first off that you translated into your daily experience you thought about differently, where you noticed less suffering, less pain? When I, whatever, think about a certain concept or. I just think it would be nice to have a snapshot of kind of early Noah within Buddhism. What are the things that stuck out for you in the beginning?

Noah Rasheta [01:22:16] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:16] And what did you see?

Noah Rasheta [01:22:19] So for me, it started with meditation. You know, meditation is kind of the core practice. So I like to say that Buddhism has a set of perspectives and practices in the way that yoga has poses, and you encounter yoga and you start to learn to do basic poses. And yoga is something that you practice? Not necessarily. Would you say it's a belief system. Buddhism can be like that. And the core Buddhist practice that you would start with is meditation as a form of introspection.

Noah Rasheta [01:22:55] And I remember encountering this idea that how you interpret the sense of self is like, you're not what you think you are. And if you take the time to look closely at what's happening in the Mind. When you're looking at the mind, what you'll see is a process. And the sense of self is an experience you're having. That is, you're selfing. You're experiencing the sense of self.

Noah Rasheta [01:23:25] And what you will find is kind of going back to that Arjona song. It's not a noun. It's like a verb. It's a process that's unfolding. So with meditation as that core practice, when I would sit there and I would analyze. Okay, here's a thought. Oh, that thought just gave rise to an emotion. Oh, now I'm feeling that emotion, which triggers this memory. Ooh. The trigger of the memory is now either intensifying the emotion or it's given rise to a different emotion. And it's almost like you're looking at the sky and you're seeing clouds that just, you know, they start to form and develop. They're there.

Noah Rasheta [01:24:02] They could be big, they could be small, but they're shifting. Subtle movement. And then at some point, that cloud's not there. It's another cloud. At some points of the day, there are no clouds. And then suddenly, there are clouds. And so I started to observe this happening in my own mind. And what felt like just this solid, fixed place that exists, which is Noah's brain, felt like it's an experience that's unfolding. And I can see it, because just like with a cloud, if you look at it long enough, you see that it's not static. Well, the mind is the same. You start to look at it and you realize, no, it's shift, shifting all the time.

Noah Rasheta [01:24:39] It might be subtle, but moods, feelings, thoughts, emotions, even. Even your sense of identity, all of that is in flux. And as I started to observe that, you know, day after day, as you sit there and you practice, what I realized is there's so much you don't notice if you never pay attention. And if you do pay attention, what you start to observe is that's consistent, is everything has causes and conditions, everything's interdependent, and everything's impermanent. And that kind of became the foundation for what I would describe as the evolution of a new worldview that was taking place of.

Noah Rasheta [01:25:25] I don't think I can see the world the same anymore, because what I do see now is everything that is has things that make it what it is, and they're always changing. And I remember encountering the teaching from a Zen teacher, Thich Nhat Hanh, who's a Vietnamese monk. He's since passed, but it was a Very simple and beautiful teaching where he said, if you've ever looked at a flower and all you saw was the flower, then you've never truly seen the flower.

Noah Rasheta [01:25:55] Because to see the flower, you have to see the sun, you have to see the clouds, the rain, the storms that give rise to rain, the mud in the ground. Like all of the non flower elements are what make the flower.

Noah Rasheta [01:26:11] And as powerful as that felt at the, you know, at the moment thinking of, wow, that's this, that's true with flowers. Then I realized that. But that's true of everything. It's true of individuals, it's true of ideologies, it's true of things. You know, everything has its things that make it what it is, but none of those things exist independent or permanent because that's just the nature of reality. There is no flower without all the other things.

Noah Rasheta [01:26:44] And at the time that, that's what really healed me is. But there's no me at the center of this experience of suffering. That's fixed. It's like I'm a collection of all the experiences that I've had up until this point. Moments of hurt, whether it's physical hurt, like you hit your finger with a hammer type thing, or emotional pain from interactions with other humans, it's like I am who I am because of everything that I've been through.

Noah Rasheta [01:27:18] And who I am in this moment is not who I'm going to be in a year, or in five years, or in 10 years. And that sudden view and understanding of flexibility and constant change was the impetus for so much of the healing. Because it's like, oh, okay, this is going, this is going to, it won't always be this way. Like this too shall pass became like a very experiential understanding rather than just a, you know, it feels good to say that.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:49] Yeah. And at this point, would you say this is an internal journey that you're kind of having on your own? Or did you talk to your brother about it? Or like, is this pretty much, are you having this on your own?

Noah Rasheta [01:28:07] Yeah. So at this point, for years, this is a very internal loan. Not lonely. I would say a very individual experience. It's just something I was going through and I think I needed it to be that way because I didn't, I didn't know how to explain it or if this is even helping me. Like I, I didn't have.

Noah Rasheta [01:28:31] It was like this thing that's developing that I can't put a framework around it yet, but I know that it keeps helping me. So I just Went on that journey alone, reading, listening to lecture series and learning as much as I could. And then at some point, I want to say within a year and a half or so of really starting that deep dive, I felt comfortable to talk about it and explain. Like, by then I already could sense life has shifted. I don't feel how I used to feel. My interpersonal dynamics, even at home, have improved. Everything's improving.

Noah Rasheta [01:29:06] And I feel a sense of contentment and peace. That, yeah, what happens? What happened? But this is the moment, you know, like those, like you see in cartoons, like the Dragon Warrior, you know, it's like inner peace and just feeling like I think I'm starting to experience that to a degree, like, I'm okay, I'm okay with what happened. I'm okay with what is right now. I'm okay with not knowing.

Noah Rasheta [01:29:31] And that's when I started talking more about it. And that's like I mentioned, I started hosting meditation classes, started talking about it on, on the podcast. And that's when I decided I wanted to really formalize my practice. And I, I found a two year ministry program to, to become a Buddhist teacher. And then that was like the second part of my deep dive was to let's, let's take this more seriously and maybe formalize it. And I already knew I have no interest in another ism in my life, so I was very reluctant to share and talk about it because I just had an aversion to a label.

Noah Rasheta [01:30:13] I didn't want a label, but there was this movement that was growing around secular Buddhism. And there was a popular former Buddhist monk who had kind of left the order and thought, you know, we don't have to approach it the way that we've been approaching it. You can approach it as a philosophy. And he had a book called Buddhism Without Beliefs. His name is Stephen Batchelor, and he had a book called Confessions of a Buddhist Atheist. And both of those really spoke to me and resonated for me. And I thought, that's the framework that I'm comfortable talking about Buddhism. I don't want people to think that you need to be a Buddhist to benefit from these ideas.

Noah Rasheta [01:30:56] And then that became like the slogan of my podcast too, that you don't need to use what you learn from Buddhism to be a Buddhist. You can use it to be a better whatever you already are. And I genuinely feel like that is at the core of almost all of these teachings that you'll encounter in mindfulness traditions like Buddhism. You can take them and apply them to whatever worldview you have. Because as opposed to most worldviews, most worldviews are trying to give you the answers to the big questions. And then it feels like they're competing because this answer isn't compatible with another answer. But Buddhism doesn't have the answers.

Noah Rasheta [01:31:34] It's giving you all the tools to sit with the questions. So if you're someone who has an ideology that needs, that gives you answers, and you depend on those answers, you could add Buddhism as an alternate framework that now gives you tools to sit with the questions, rather than seeing it as it's not a competing worldview that's going to come in and say, wait, let's compare your answers versus our answers in this other tradition.

Noah Rasheta [01:32:00] So I think that's part of why it was so compatible as a framework in a mixed faith marriage too. Because we didn't necessarily have opposing views on specific topics. It's like we're approaching it in two different ways. One tradition says you need the answers and your sense of peace comes from having the answer. And the other tradition is saying maybe the question doesn't matter as much as you think it does. And if it doesn't carry the weight that you thought it carried, then not having an answer to the question is also a form of having peace.

Noah Rasheta [01:32:36] And that really spoke to me because that felt like nobody can ever pull that rug out from under me again. Because this is giving me a framework of having no foundation to stand on. That was the shift from being a truth seeker to just. I'm just a practitioner of peace. I'm trying to create and experience more peace in my life. And I don't need answers anymore. I'm not gonna look for answers. Cause so much of what life gives you are questions that can't be answered.

John Dehlin [01:33:10] Yeah. When Margi and I, you know, we lost our faith in 2001 and started Mormon Stories in 2005. And then we were trying to figure out. We found ourselves having to neutralize everything our kids were learning at church because we wanted to raise them in a tradition, but we also weren't really giving them a theology or a doctrine to live by. And we also didn't want them to become orthodox Mormons because we felt like there were harmful teachings there.

John Dehlin [01:33:48] So I remember when Oprah was doing her book club, towards the end of her show, she had Eckhart Tolle on and she plugged A New Earth by Eckhart Tolle. And I remember being around 2007, and I remember just it being earth shattering for Margi and I because I think of Eckhart Tolle as kind of popularized secular Buddhism in a new age kind of wrapping.

John Dehlin [01:34:17] And it really meant a lot to us to have the framework of be in the present moment. Don't get too attached to labels or stories or identities. Don't live in the past, don't live in the future, live in the now.

John Dehlin [01:34:36] You know, that stuff became really powerful to us. He talked about the ego and attachment and suffering. And then when I learned you were discovering Buddhism, I'd studied a little Buddhism, but not a lot. I think I had learned about it from my world religions class at byu.

John Dehlin [01:35:03] And I like this idea of life is suffering and attachment causes suffering. And then there's the Eightfold path that helps deliver you from being unduly burdened by your suffering, let's just say it that way. But I also never really gave Buddhism a serious consideration for the same reason I think many ex Mormons and or people who've left high demand religions haven't is because they immediately make the association between Buddhism and a world religion. And so many people who have come out of a world religion are allergic to anything that even sniffs of religion.

John Dehlin [01:35:43] And so that's always been a frustrating thing is that I don't think of Buddhism first of all, I don't think of it as religion and I more think of it as just positive mental health principles. But it's got that association that I think becomes a deal killer, possibly even for even if you stick the word secular in front of it.

Noah Rasheta [01:36:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:36:08] And I just. Yeah. And so I really do feel like. And weirdly, Eckhart Tolle kept referencing Jesus and in a New Earth and he would say things like Jesus said consider the lilies of the field. You know, and that's a Buddhist move. It's just sit in the present moment and Jesus said, take no thought for tomorrow because evil is sufficient of the day thereof. Like, oh, that's sort of Buddhist. You know, he's saying pay attention to the now and don't worry about the future. The now is kind of all you have.

John Dehlin [01:36:42] And so I just realized that the principles of Buddhism are just sound mental health principles. And also at exact that time I was starting my PhD in clinical and counseling psychology and I was being trained in a form of cognitive behavioral therapy called acceptance and commitment therapy, which, you know, so it's known as ACT Act.

John Dehlin [01:37:06] And it was basically a PhD level psychotherapy researcher who had grew up during the hippies movement and was exposed to transcendental Buddhism and he just merged. What he learned from Buddhism into cognitive behavioral therapy. And it became a really efficacious form of treating anxiety and treating depression and treating post traumatic stress disorder. So all these worlds start converging for me, Eckhart Tolle, you acceptance and commitment therapy. And I just realized that there is something to this. And I'm annoyed that ex Mormons are gonna associate it with a world religion and for that reason alone, might not give it a second thought. Which is why I always loved how you start every episode and say those words again.

How Buddhism Shaped Noah's Worldview

Noah Rasheta [01:37:58] You don't need to use what you learned from Buddhism to be a Buddhist. You can use it to be a better whatever. You already are.

John Dehlin [01:38:04] Yeah. And that's brilliant. Yeah. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:09] I mean, one thing I observe in your story that I really. I love this now, like, reflecting on where you are is just how you described yourself as a boy, as being curious. And I think inadvertently, what can happen when you're raised Mormon is that you overvalue this idea of what you know, what you think you know. And so the world becomes very stagnant, very, like, you know, everything. And so, and I've said this before on the podcast, but the world dies a little when you do that. If you walk around thinking you know everything. Right. There's no reason to really engage with it. So thinking about you saying I was a curious boy, I mean, Buddhism to me is like, the world is alive again.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:03] Like, you don't know. So you're always observing, you're always curious, you're always looking and feeling and, you know, and there's this real engagement there. And at the heart of it is sort of curiosity.

Noah Rasheta [01:39:17] Yeah, it really is. In fact, there's a Zen expression that I really love, and it says, with little doubt, little awakening, no doubt, no awakening, and great doubt, great awakening. Like, it's. It's at the heart of that is, like you said, curiosity. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:37] We reference Eckhart Tolle before. Eckhart Tolle for me actually was Thich Nhat Hanh. I read Heart of the Buddha's Teaching was one of the first books I read. And I would bring it to church with me, actually, and read it in second hour, just sit out in the foyer. It came from this place of deep suffering. That's where the journey began. And it reminds me of just like that lotus flower kind of symbolism of needing darkness and the mud, and from that it gives birth. It needs that actually to find it. And it weaves its way up, and then you get this. This incredible flower right at the surface, but at the root, like, where you start is deep pain. Right. And that's what drew you to. And I just think that's, that's really interesting and I relate to it.

Noah Rasheta [01:40:27] Yeah, yeah. That expression, no mud, no lotus. And it felt like I, I had reached a stage in my life where it's like, ah, I've encountered mud. I don't want mud, I only want lotus. And it was like, well, let's look at the mud, because that's where the lotus comes from. And that is what healed so much of my relationship with the past, with what happened, or even with the church. So going back to just my Mormon story became a story of once it no longer made sense to me as a framework for myself, for my life. I was still in it for over a decade In a family dynamic where this is what my spouse believes, this is what my kids are growing up in, this is what my people that I love in my family in laws, this is what they all believe.

Noah Rasheta [01:41:20] How do I work within that framework where it's not what I believe? And I want to give you a couple of examples of where a Buddhist perspective helped in living in an ecosystem like that, a framework like that. And one was early on with, with the, when home teaching was still a thing. We had a neighbor who, he was the previous bishop, older gentleman, and he was, he would never miss, like I don't know if I was his project or if it really was that our family was assigned to him, but he would come share a message every month and he would reach out. And sometimes it was the one time it was the end of the month, I want to say it was literally the last day of the month and a Sunday.

Noah Rasheta [01:42:09] And he called and I remember it was kind of late in the day and as I answered the phone I said, oh, hi. And my wife realized who it was and she's on the other side of the room kind of doing this like, no, tell him we can't because now we've hit it's bedtime. And that's a tone routine with three kids, you know, and he was trying

John Dehlin [01:42:30] to meet his quota.

Noah Rasheta [01:42:31] He was trying to meet his quota. And I, as I'm looking at her saying all this, I said, yes, of course, come on over and hang up. And she goes, why, why did you do that? It's we've got to get the kids ready for bed and blah, blah, blah. And I said, well, just think about this from his perspective. He, he feels like he's doing his God given duty to come talk to us. I'm not going to rob him of that. And she kind of paused for a second. I was like, think of how happy he'll be to know he came, he did it, he'll go home.

Noah Rasheta [01:43:02] And it's like, I did it. I hit the quota, and I almost missed it. And I remember she was, like, taken aback. She's like, wait, that's how you've been approaching this this whole time? Because this is years of me, not even, you know, I'm no longer attending or anything.

Noah Rasheta [01:43:18] And yet if someone comes like him and he wanted to come, I'd always say, yeah, come on over. And I said, yeah, that's how I'm approaching it. I like him. I care about him. I don't want to rob him of the joy he gets from feeling a sense of accomplishment to his duty for coming and sharing a message with me.

Noah Rasheta [01:43:35] And it doesn't bother you that he comes and the message is always about, you're essentially living life wrong. Come back to this path. I was like, it could be whatever it is that doesn't matter to me. I'm content with where I am in my path. But if he needs to say that, he can say it. He can say whatever he needs to say. And I remember that was a big shift for her that I think helped her to be a better whatever. She already was. In this case, she was doing visiting, teaching, and it changed her perspective of, why are we doing the things that we do that can be its own thing?

Noah Rasheta [01:44:08] Why do we allow people to do what they're going to do that can be a whole different one. And in this case, I had a reason for why I allow him to come share messages with me. That's rooted in my compassion for him, and that's all that needed to be. That was an impactful moment.

Noah Rasheta [01:44:27] And then another one later had to do with something that was in a conference talk, and she was really wrestling with something that was said. I can't even remember the details. And I remember telling her, but does it matter if it's true or not? She was trying to have a sense of, I can comply with this thing that was said if I know it's true.

Noah Rasheta [01:44:53] And it evolved into a conversation where I helped her view all of it from a framework of, what if it's not true? What if there's this box right here and it would confirm if you open it that it's definitely not true? Would that make you not want to go and not be involved with it?

Noah Rasheta [01:45:10] And she said, I think I would still want to because these are my friends. This is my community. And I was like, so, so that's not about being true or not. Then don't get caught up in that. It doesn't, you're wrestling with something that you don't need to be wrestling with when the real, the real approach for you is, I like this, I like how it makes me feel when I go, well, then keep going. It doesn't have to be anything more than that. And I think that was another one of those milestones for her to feel like she could loosen the grip a little and just appreciate the fact that she does love going to church.

Noah Rasheta [01:45:43] She loves the people at church, she loves a lot of what the church gives her and does for her. And certainly there are a few things that she doesn't like, but it doesn't have to all hinge on, you know, it's either all or nothing.

Noah Rasheta [01:45:58] So those were just a couple of examples of how a Buddhist perspective influenced and shaped an LDS narrative inside of this mixed faith marriage where it's like, look, we're on the team of we're trying to make this as easy as we can for each other and follow what feels right. And then that in return that allowed me to be clear of like, the reason I don't go isn't because I'm standing in a place of certainty of either it's true or it's not. It's, I don't, I don't like how I feel when I go. It doesn't make sense to me. This is not about if it's true or not.

Noah Rasheta [01:46:34] It doesn't resonate for me and that's why I don't do it. There are a lot of things I don't do in life because they, I don't like, I don't want to do it. And there are a lot of things that I do do in life simply because I like how it makes me feel, not because it's the, the right thing to do or not.

John Dehlin [01:46:51] I'll just tell people as we come up on the two hour mark, we're going to do a part two where we're going to do an introduction to Secular Buddhism and it's a real special treat. And if you're struggling with mental health, with suffering, I can promise you you're going to find things that will be valuable. Let's close this first part with this final maybe question.

Making a Mixed-Faith Marriage Work

John Dehlin [01:47:17] So I was surprised after, you know, you, you know, we were friends and then you kind of, you know, you moved on from the Mormon stories kind of domain and started secular Buddhism. It was always Just really impressive to me. But also it almost didn't make sense that you were able to stay in your mixed faith marriage. Not because mixed faith marriages can't be made to work, but when worldviews start to diverge in such fundamental ways.

John Dehlin [01:47:54] That always stuck with me. It's like, I love Margi, but if our worldviews got too far apart, there would be a point where I'm not sure it would even be healthy or fun for us to try to stay together. So I was always watching to see, man, is Noah still married? And then. But the other part was, I know that you, I'm sure your in laws are amazing, but I always, because I knew your story, knew that you were living in this town surrounded by your in laws, where they were all, as I understood it, devout, and they were all in it. And you probably didn't really feel ever fully accepted or appreciated or valued when the world was honestly valuing you as a source of wisdom and guidance and truth.

John Dehlin [01:48:45] You're living in this small community where your family and community kind of views you as a disappointment. Like for me, the math said, I don't know how. I mean, the only way Noah's surviving all this is because he's practiced Buddhism. But in my mind also, I thought, I don't know how this lasts forever. I don't know how this can continue. So maybe we end with you kind of talking about, how did the Mormon mixed faith marriage last?

Noah Rasheta [01:49:15] Yeah. So I feel like the mixed faith marriage was never problematic in the sense of this shouldn't work. And in fact, a huge part of the motivation to keep making it work was to show people that it can work.

Noah Rasheta [01:49:35] Now, to her credit as well, I do think it takes a softening of the grip. You know, it is a worldview that is fundamental in the sense of it's the only right way and any other way is not. And if you hold that with a super tight grip, it's going to be very difficult for that person to be with someone who doesn't have the framework.

Noah Rasheta [01:50:01] And again, credit to her, she did not have that. She was okay with elements of uncertainty, like, what does this mean when we die? What does this mean about what? The promises we made in the temple, things like that she held space for. We don't know. That can be sorted when the time comes. And that's a huge part of why this worked as long as it worked.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:24] I can see that.

Noah Rasheta [01:50:25] Yeah. Now then the ecosystem is a separate thing. And it was difficult to feel like you're in an ecosystem where you're tolerated and you're welcome, no doubt welcome. Because like I said, the family, they're incredible. All of them are very capable, intelligent, loving people.

Noah Rasheta [01:50:46] But sometimes the worldview itself, unintentionally, without you knowing it is blinding you to, you know, what makes a good person good. In that framework, it might be, well, how obedient you are or how much you believe. And for someone like me in that ecosystem, it's easy to be looked at sometimes as well. You're a good, kind person, but just stay quiet and sit in the back. We don't want to. Don't share and talk about your worldview because your worldview feels threatening.

Noah Rasheta [01:51:20] So there were aspects of my life that felt like they're very subdued, like, I'm not going to just share. For example, when I became a Buddhist minister, that was an experience I went through that was very solo, like nobody was there when it was done. It wasn't like, hey, congrats, tell me about that. It's just kind of like, well, we're going to pretend that didn't happen. There were moments like that that feel difficult because you just kind of feel like, okay, I'll just.

John Dehlin [01:51:50] And the kid turns 8 and everybody goes bananas because they get baptized. Right. But you become a minister and it's like, that's awkward.

Noah Rasheta [01:51:58] Exactly. Yeah. And if it's happening on their side, you know, their kids are turning 8, their kids are going on missions, and I'm supportive and I'll celebrate and congrats or I'll go to the opening. You know, I don't believe in this and yet I can support your belief in it. Where I felt that was very difficult to receive the inverse of that.

Noah Rasheta [01:52:22] So that takes a toll. And then ultimately one of one of the things that happened towards the end, because you know where this is leading, we, after 20 years, we decided to separate and get divorced. So divorced now. And that was.

Noah Rasheta [01:52:39] It's been. It was difficult to navigate, and yet aspects of it have been, I think, healthy for both. And I do remember one thing that was pivotal for me. My in laws were going on a mission to Nauvoo. That's where they are now. And they're loving it. They're having a great time there. I'm. I keep up with what they're up to, but the. They came to our. Everyone came to our house prior to them leaving.

Noah Rasheta [01:53:08] And there was a moment where all of the siblings were expressing appreciation to the parents, like, oh, you're wonderful examples. We're gonna follow suit and do this one day too. And I remember thinking, this has to be kind of hard for Giselle. It has to be kind of hard for her to hear expressions of, oh, we want to do that too. And she's got to be thinking, I wish I could, but I won't be able to.

Noah Rasheta [01:53:33] And realizing like much of what I feel, that I can't fully be me because it just doesn't, it doesn't work for her system, her belief system. It happens both ways. And we had encountered it once before. She was really excited to try to go on trek and I didn't want to go on Trek and she couldn't go alone because the way that the people get to go on that is as a couple, right? So I went and mentioned it to my brother in law at the time, was, was our bishop and told him I, there's got to be a way that we can make this work.

Noah Rasheta [01:54:12] Like, what if, what if we are a support staff and I'm the one doing all the videography and I'll make a video for you guys at the end of it all.

John Dehlin [01:54:21] That's so nice.

Noah Rasheta [01:54:22] And he said, yeah. And I remember she was so excited. Like I could just see the genuine happiness and joy that she gets to go participate in this thing that she thought she'd probably never get to experience. And it was fine, we did it, you know, and I enjoyed the experience of trekking and filming. But also it's like, this isn't, this doesn't jive with me. This isn't my worldview. The messages that are being shared here don't resonate with me. But that's okay. I can approach this the way that I'm going to approach it.

Noah Rasheta [01:54:52] So moments like that and then, and then thinking to the future mission, like, I won't be able to make that happen. And there was this moment of, why are we doing this to each other? I love you enough to want what's best for you, even if that means maybe that's not me.

Noah Rasheta [01:55:09] And she expressed the same in return. Like, I love you enough to want what's best for you, even if that's not me. And it's the culmination of a lot of things, right? Because there's the catalyst of an initial very deep wound that's really hard to ever fully get over. That's its own thing. But that alone was not enough. There's the differences in worldview, which is also a very big thing. But alone not enough. There's patterns and understanding ourselves. And your pattern triggers my pattern and my Pattern in turn triggers yours. Right. Like, that is a huge thing, but in and of itself might not be enough, but the.

Noah Rasheta [01:55:51] The totality of all of it felt like, what if we're not the most skillful pairing that we could be for each other? Could you be in a dynamic where you would. We don't want to survive our marriage. We want to thrive in our marriage. And we tried really hard. In the last two years, we did a weekly marriage counseling course that we were in that was like, every week. Like, we read a very thick book. We've done years of work to try to make it work, and that's why it's as good as it's been. And I would say at many times, there were intense highlights of a really good, happy, healthy relationship.

Noah Rasheta [01:56:35] And then, of course, there are the moments where very painful and hurtful experiences that have happened in our marriage. But the lowest lows weren't the defining and the highest highs weren't the defining. It was just the totality of all of it. What if we want to? What if we're two good people who just aren't right for each other going forward? Going forward.

John Dehlin [01:56:59] Yeah.

Noah Rasheta [01:57:01] And when we celebrated our 20th, because by then we already knew this is the end. And we did it like the end of Survivor where it's like, you go back and revisit all the highlights. It's like, what are your 20 favorite memories of our past together? And like, it felt like a moment of mourning and genuine celebration of everything that we did that we can be proud of, and we let it go with that. Like, we did something incredible that we're both proud of and we really both want what's best for each other moving forward.

Noah Rasheta [01:57:34] And it felt like a very healthy, amicable way to say, the story keeps going. This is a book, but that chapter's over. And I don't regret those chapters. I cherish everything that those chapters were. But the stories shifted, and there's the excitement of I don't know what the story has for the future, but no resentment or regret for the past either. That's kind of how we ended that.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:02] So meaningful.

John Dehlin [01:58:04] Yeah. I think more marriages need to end when they end with celebration.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:07] Yes. And that's right.

John Dehlin [01:58:10] Yeah. So with that, I hope you've enjoyed part one of our interview with Noah Rashada of secular Buddhism. The website is eightfoldpath.com is that right? And we're going to talk about that next episode. But, you know, like, subscribe, follow donate@mormonstories.org donate support Noah as well. Go to eightfoldpath.com and there's a lot of cool stuff he has, including an Ask Noah kind of AI engine where you've imported all of your wisdom and your writings into a automated AI bot that can actually serve as kind of a guide and a counselor. Is that right?

Reflections and What Comes Next

Noah Rasheta [01:58:48] Yeah, that's right. If you want to learn about Buddhism, you can listen to the first five episodes of the podcast, or you could read a book about it, or you could ask questions, and the chatbot will guide you through it.

John Dehlin [01:58:59] Yeah. But most importantly, if you are being mired in suffering and. Or someone you love and you want to learn the beginnings of an approach to mental health, dealing with anxiety, depression, trauma in a way that's also empirically supported, come back right back for part two, where we're going to do an introduction to secular Buddhism. And you don't join part two to become a Buddhist. You join part two to become the best whatever it is you are or want to be. True.

Noah Rasheta [01:59:34] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:59:35] All right. So thanks, Noah.

Noah Rasheta [01:59:36] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:59:37] Thanks, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [01:59:37] Yes, absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:59:39] And thanks, Brooklyn and Julia. And we'll see you all again for part two. Be good to each other, Be kind to each other, and come back for part two on Mormon stories. See everyone.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.