Introduction and Guest Background

Part 1 of 3 · Ep. 126

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Mormon Stories podcast takes a ton of work and depends solely upon listener support to keep this program alive and to help me make it through grad school. Please consider a donation today@mormonstories.org.

John Dehlin [00:00:36] Sean McCraney, welcome to Mormon Stories.

Shawn McCraney [00:00:38] Thank you. Good to be here.

John Dehlin [00:00:41] It's my pleasure, too. Thought I'd begin by just kind of setting up maybe three reasons why I thought this would be a great interview. First is Mormon Stories is about interviewing interesting Mormons. And I consider you to be a Mormon. Anyone who sort of has been or will be or is a Mormon now or is affiliated in some way. I kind of see Mormonism as a culture and you're right there in the middle of it. So I thought your story would be interesting and I'm really excited just to hear about your journey. So that's the first reason. Second reason, there are plenty of members of the LDS Church who end up leaving it, and some would argue that far too many of them become disbelievers or atheists or just struggle to find some type of spiritual destination and a sense of meaning or community. Now, plenty of people who I talk to who are atheist or agnostic find a place that they're very happy with. So I don't want to give the impression that that's everyone, but I, you know, I know that there are many who leave who do want some type of spiritual or religious replacement. And, you know, evangelical Christianity is one place they could go. So to the extent that you can make an appeal for why a former member of the church might consider evangelical Christianity, I'd be interested in that. And then the third is there are a lot of believing Mormons, LDS Church members or non, who sort of have been following your show and have a lot of questions. So I've sent emails, put up a blog post to get as many people to ask questions as they can. And so I'll be just asking a bunch of the questions on behalf of my listeners. Sounds good and stuff. Okay, so let's begin with your story.

Shawn's Path Through Mormonism as a Missionary

Shawn McCraney [00:02:39] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:02:40] Tell us about your upbringing, your time in the church, and lead us up through your decision to leave and your born again experience.

Shawn McCraney [00:02:49] Okay. Mom and dad, Los Angeles, California. Converted prior to my birth. Had three children. Parents converted to Mormonism by two sister missionaries who my parents liked the social structure that the church brought them. And so I was born under the covenant or in the covenant and raised LDs throughout my teen years. Hard as it is to believe, I was a little wild, but I never miss going to church. All of my friends, except for One were lds. I had a great time. I loved the steak dances, I love the girls, I love the meetings. The social constructs were phenomenal. So my parents chose well and I liked being lds, although as I said, I was a bit wild. And then when the mission time came back in those days, it was a good thing to get yourself cleaned up. And so I did that and was called to Pennsylvania, Harrisburg, and was called to a two year mission. And then real quick. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:04] So for many people, they have a very spiritual upbringing and the mission is what they always wanted to do. For those who maybe have a lively teenage years before they go on a mission, there's usually some type of climactic spiritual experience which sort of brings them to want to go on a mission.

Shawn McCraney [00:04:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:24] Did you have any of that? And just in general, did you have testimony in your teen years at all?

Shawn McCraney [00:04:32] No, no testimony in the teen years, except a testimony of the church, but not of the gospel that Mormonism represents. God, Jesus.

John Dehlin [00:04:40] God, Jesus.

Shawn McCraney [00:04:42] Not really, to be honest. You know, and the change, the shift was they disfellowshipped me. They wanted to excommunicate me. I was that wild.

John Dehlin [00:04:54] What age?

Guest [00:04:55] 18.

Shawn McCraney [00:04:55] Oh, wow. But my mom went down and said, if you do the whole family's walking. And so they just fellowshiped me instead. I learned from that that there's. That it's interesting how those things work. And that was kind of a light bulb for me because I had talked to the bishop and I knew that they had wanted to excommunicate me pre mission. Pre mission. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:17] That's crazy.

Shawn McCraney [00:05:18] Yeah. You know, I'm pretty much a bad guy at heart. So, you know, I went on the mission and it was a time of reform and I was a damn dang good missionary man. I obeyed the white handbook rules like you can't believe, and I loved it. And it was an opportunity to hone my sales skills. And I believed in Jesus Christ in the mission, and I believed Mormonism was true. And I bought into it completely on the mission.

John Dehlin [00:05:51] But not a spiritual conversion.

Shawn McCraney [00:05:55] I cannot say that I had a metaphysical experience that altered my heart. No. But intellectually I made an intellectual assent to this church must be true. Look at the good and look at the mission. And being part of that group was so powerful that I liked it.

John Dehlin [00:06:15] Did you ever feel like you were. So you didn't feel like you were lying because intellectually you were convinced?

Shawn McCraney [00:06:18] Intellectually I was convinced. So I was able to sell the product. But I didn't know what spiritual change was. So I really Couldn't. Didn't have anything to base it on. Came home from the mission honorably, and baptisms, you know, I wasn't a great baptizer in Pennsylvania, Harrisburg. Worked a lot with Amish, and I think I baptized six. And, you know, I heard of people in the mission that would baptize, you know, many more. So I wasn't really a great. I was an assistant to the president for more than half of my mission.

John Dehlin [00:06:52] You were?

Shawn McCraney [00:06:52] Yeah. So. And I really enjoyed it.

John Dehlin [00:06:56] What do you think led to the people. Did the people who got baptized, do you think they were converted? Not converted.

Shawn McCraney [00:07:02] I think that I charmed them into becoming lds.

John Dehlin [00:07:05] So, charisma.

Guest [00:07:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:07] Do you think any of them are still members?

Shawn McCraney [00:07:09] I do, yeah. I've checked on a few of them and they are. And I haven't checked on them to yank them out. I just checked on them. Yeah. So came back the night I got home, got engaged to my wife.

John Dehlin [00:07:20] What?

Shawn McCraney [00:07:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:22] Had you known her?

Shawn McCraney [00:07:23] I knew her before going on the mission, but I didn't want to fall back into my old ways, you know, so it was important for me, according to my mission president, that I get hooked up really quickly. And she was. She's a good girl. Still married to her now. And so we got engaged, got married six months later, and embarked upon the life of a missionary. I mean, a returned missionary. But, you know, and I don't know. Do you have language things here? Do I have a problem with just speaking? I became a bastard because where I lacked in morality prior to the mission, the mission gave me now righteousness. And so I became somewhat of a religious jerk. And I was knowledgeable and I'm fairly intelligent, so I understood things. And I was put in leadership positions in the mission. That kind of puffed me up, and I was a jerk. So I realized that about myself. Became an Elders Quorum president here in Utah. We went to byu. Just was like Adolf Hitler running the Elders quorum. I mean, we were going to get 100%, come hell or high water. And I was determined. I really believe that if we're supposed to do our home teaching, it had to be 100%. And Dan Witherspoon, he once said that I was obsessive compulsive.

John Dehlin [00:08:39] Did you know him?

Shawn McCraney [00:08:40] No, I didn't. He told me this later, but he said, you're obsessive compulsive. Anybody who wants to get 100% home teaching every month as an Elders Quorum present, you're just a perfectionist. I said, I'm not But I just thought, hey, listen, if you have to do your home teaching and that's what pleases God, we got to do it. And I would go out, like, I remember a Halloween night and like 20 families hadn't been visited, and I was out there on Halloween night trying to do it myself. So we got all 100%, and that's kind of my mindset going in. Well, that can only last so long. And I began to sort of break down internally. And what happened was I started having questions and doubts and I. First, after leaving byu, I.

John Dehlin [00:09:22] What did you study?

Shawn McCraney [00:09:24] Fashion design.

Guest [00:09:25] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:27] Bit of a metrosexual.

Shawn McCraney [00:09:28] Yeah, I'm a metrosexual all the way. And just to let the audience know my issues of morality, unlike what the Internet says are not homosexuality.

John Dehlin [00:09:37] So.

Shawn McCraney [00:09:38] Yeah. But anyway, studied fashion design. And after I just started having the question. So I went to anti Mormon literature, studied it and realized no one cares in the church. Mostly when I was a member and I have all this information, hey, did you know they're like, well, who cares? Well, that's fine. We don't really. No one. And so that wasn't the avenue for me. So what happens? My wife and I, we start raising our family and I start. I'm putting an elders Corman, and then I'm putting a bishopric and I'm putting a stake high council as a high priest.

John Dehlin [00:10:10] Okay, wait, where are you when you're in a bishopric?

Shawn McCraney [00:10:12] Huntington Beach.

John Dehlin [00:10:13] So you move back to California?

Shawn McCraney [00:10:15] Moved back to California.

John Dehlin [00:10:15] Start a business. What are you doing?

Shawn McCraney [00:10:17] I was in the retail business for a while. And then after the retail business, I went into becoming a stockbroker and I worked for Dean Witter Reynolds at that time and hated it. Was not a happy guy.

John Dehlin [00:10:31] Were you good at it?

Shawn McCraney [00:10:33] Not that good, but I was okay. And I moved around doing that. And you can make a lot of money doing that. So moving around, they pay you to come up, come over. So I did that game, taught early morning seminary and learned and not. And really I was doing all these things outwardly. And I know this doesn't play well to my story in trying to reach people who are LDs, because almost everything I'm saying they can use against me because that's the mindset. He was a sinner. He never really had a testimony. He, you know all those things. And I understand that. But I'll tell you why I think it's important in a minute. So I started to have that. So then I started to kind of just roil in despair and I went to Eastern metaphysics. I studied philosophy heavily and my wife and I just call it Seventeen, the Lost Years. For 17 years I served in the church, but internally just had like this catabasis of downward spiral.

John Dehlin [00:11:32] Was it the church isn't true? Was it. How do I reconcile the history? Was it I'm just not culturally feeling right or spiritually fed?

Shawn McCraney [00:11:38] I knew I was a jerk in my heart, and I knew that God, I was not right with God, honestly. But I could not fix it. The mission didn't fix it for me because as soon as I got off the plane, I could see my marriage in the temple didn't fix it for me. Getting 100% home teaching didn't fix it for me. I knew in my heart that if this, if God, if I stood before him, he would see who I really was. And I, as much as this sounds difficult, I hate hypocrisy. And I was a hypocrite. And because I was a hypocrite, I just refused in the end to put up the facade anymore. And so in the end, I did. But for those 17 years, I played the game. I put on the white suit. I was popular, you know, involved with the youth and all those things. But internally, I was just dead. And so someone wrote a critique against me at farms on my book and said I was addicted to painkillers and vodka. I was not. And in fact, I say in the book I wrote, I used them to dull the pain of my doubt and not believing in the church, but being married in the temple to a wife who did my children singing, I want to go to the temple, you know, and that conflict and tension was too much for me. And so I began to secretly abuse when I could find times alone, vodka or hydrocodone or whatever, never addicted. And you know what happened then, John, was in the summer of 1997, I get in the car, my wife asked me to go pick up my children from gymnastics practice. I'm driving, and I could have driven off this bridge I was going over as well as driven to the practice.

John Dehlin [00:13:19] How old were you?

Shawn McCraney [00:13:19] So gone? 97. I was 36. And I flip on the radio and there's a preacher and he says, you know, if. Let me ask you a question. If you can, if you could get yourself right before God, why haven't you done it? That was his question. And I thought, I don't know, man, I've tried. I really have tried. And then he said, well, the reason yet you haven't done it is because you can't it's impossible in who you are to do it. So I listened. Long story short, he said, say the sinner's prayer. Now, I had done the sinner's prayer mockingly on many doorsteps in Pennsylvania. You know, Christians would come to the door and say, all you need to do is confess. And I'd say, jesus, I believe you. Am I saved? Now? You know, and we'd mock that. But this time, I was so broken inside because of my proclivities toward my own flesh that I said, hey, man, I need something. And I was at the bottom of the barrel. I discovered that within the Mormon Church, you usually don't go bottom of the barrel because there's so many supports to keep you going and up. And if you go bottom of the barrel, you usually go inactive. And then, you know, you're not walking on water anymore. You're turning into wine and you're drinking it. So I just hit bottom barrel. While an active Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:14:42] What's the sinner's prayer?

John Dehlin [00:14:43] Can you recite it? Do you remember it?

Shawn McCraney [00:14:45] You know, I didn't. There isn't an official sinner's prayer, but I just asked Jesus, God, Heavenly Father. I actually said, heavenly Father, forgive me of my sin. Help me to overcome my own propensities, which I can't do myself. And I know I can't. I've tried.

John Dehlin [00:15:01] You said this driving to pick.

Shawn McCraney [00:15:03] I pulled over the side of the road. Yeah. And it's the roadside experience, you know, and, you know, being raised lds, I really kind of believed, listening to him, that this was going to happen. So I opened my eyes. I think, you know, angels, he has been saved. Sean McCready's finally. But nothing. And I. And the guy said on the radio, and make sure you tell God you'll wait for him to change you. And so I said, God, I'll wait, but please help me.

John Dehlin [00:15:29] So no immediate answer?

Shawn McCraney [00:15:30] No immediate answer. Nothing at all. I went to the gymnastics practice and. Do you want me to go into this? Okay. I go to the gymnastics practice. I park the car. I'm waiting 15 minutes early. I close my eyes, and I go back to three specific stories of my life. The first one was, I'm 10 years old. I'm in the shower. The telephone rings. No one's home. I go to get it. I wrap a towel and. And on the other end is a guy who says it's his mission, and he has a speech impediment and he might be mentally disturbed or something physically wrong with him. And he says it's his mission to call people and talk to them about Jesus. And my mind went back as I'm sitting there waiting for my kids to come out about this call. Now I don't remember what the guy said to me, but all I do know is that when my mom came in from the store and put the groceries on, I could hear her come in. And the guy hung up. My hair was dry, so. So he blew dried my hair with prayer and he just prayed into me, something about, listen, Jesus is real. And I don't know what else. Next story, I get off my mission, I come to Logan, Utah and I'm working at the Elks Club cleaning the pool before I go to BYU with my wife. And I'm cleaning the pool and there's a guy with long red hair sitting poolside with a black book. And I get next to him just off my mission and I'm just buried in the temple and he's got this black book. And I said, what's that? And he's, he said, it's a Bible. And I said, you lds? And he said, I used to be. And man, it was throw down time. I mean, I started throwing it at him, he starts throwing it at me, back and forth we go. And then finally the guy just says, someday you are going to know who Jesus is. And my mind went back to that experience of that moment. The third one was I'm working at a bank as an investment officer. A girl is leaving to go get married and she leaves a letter from she and her husband to be on my desk. Just want to tell you, I know that you're lds and that's fine, but Jesus is real and that's all you need. And I thought I mocked it, really. I was teaching a late night temple prep class at that time and I actually took it into the temple prep and I read it and everybody mocked it. Yeah, Jesus only.

Guest [00:17:39] Jesus only.

Shawn McCraney [00:17:39] And I was kind of mocking it too. And there sitting, waiting for that to come out, my mind went back to that story. And I, you know, I cannot describe this any better than I opened my eyes and I watched the double gym doors open and my daughters come out with their little friends in their leotards and they just bounced across the grass like summer leaves. And I was changed. My heart was changed radically. But I didn't know what that would mean. I was lds, but for the first time in my life, it didn't matter. I felt peace. I knew that I had been unconditionally received by God because of what his Son did for me. And it changed the way I saw and heard and lived from that point forward. But I was LDS and I did not want to go to some evangelical Jesus freak church. So I still was LDS in my heart. I still love the church. I didn't believe it, but I loved the church. So I continued to go for four years. And during that time I wrote a book and I titled it Born Again Mormon. And my wife and I.

John Dehlin [00:18:47] What was the intent of the book?

Shawn McCraney [00:18:49] The intent of the book was then and still is now to help Latter Day Saints understand the miracle of spiritual rebirth. Their definition of it and what I experienced are wholly different things. And we can talk about that later if you want, but that's the intent of the book.

Doubts, Disaffection, and Excommunication

John Dehlin [00:19:08] Was there any, like, here's what Joseph Smith did in the book, here's why the church isn't, you know, what it claims to be, truth claim stuff?

Shawn McCraney [00:19:16] Yeah, I did some of that, but.

John Dehlin [00:19:17] So you wrote that while a member.

Shawn McCraney [00:19:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:19] Thinking that you would publish it and leave the church?

Shawn McCraney [00:19:21] Didn't know what I would do with the church. I wasn't really sure. But I was working on the book during those four years, moved to Park City, Utah, and decided that it was time to face the tribunal. And people say, well, why would you go and ask the Stake Presidency and the bishop to be excommunicated when you didn't believe it? I'd been raised in the church. I still wasn't sure if it's right or not. I didn't know what to do. I deserved excommunication. And so I wanted to go through the process that had been taught is what you do. And so my wife and I went before the Stake High Council in Park City, Utah, together, got together, sat at the end.

John Dehlin [00:20:00] Wait, was it a joint?

Shawn McCraney [00:20:02] No trial?

Guest [00:20:03] No.

Shawn McCraney [00:20:04] She's a member.

John Dehlin [00:20:04] She was there to support you?

Shawn McCraney [00:20:05] To support me.

John Dehlin [00:20:06] Was she a believer at the time?

Shawn McCraney [00:20:07] Believer, yeah. And her life was unraveling right before her eyes as her husband, you know, the guy, he's lost it, you know, and we had six men on the one side, pro kind, and six men on the other side. And we, my wife and I laugh how when it became that, the tough side, the bad cop side, one of those guys pounded his fist on the table and he stood up and who do you think you are? Who do you think you are? Because I had doctoral questions.

John Dehlin [00:20:39] You hadn't published your book yet?

Shawn McCraney [00:20:40] No. Hadn't been published yet.

John Dehlin [00:20:42] You hadn't done anything that people would call anti Mormon?

Guest [00:20:45] No.

Shawn McCraney [00:20:45] Nothing?

John Dehlin [00:20:46] No one you Just said, I want to have a trial.

Shawn McCraney [00:20:49] Yeah, I deserve it.

John Dehlin [00:20:51] Have you talked to bishops? Have you talked to. So you tried to discuss your concerns with.

Shawn McCraney [00:20:55] I put it in a letter and I gave all my doctrinal issues and the things that I believed I was guilty and wrong of.

John Dehlin [00:21:03] But had you tried to have a. Had you had a dialogue with the bishops or state. Okay.

Shawn McCraney [00:21:06] No dialogue.

Guest [00:21:07] Okay.

Shawn McCraney [00:21:07] They didn't care.

John Dehlin [00:21:08] It was kind of, probably came out of the blue.

Shawn McCraney [00:21:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:10] You were new to the ward anyway.

Shawn McCraney [00:21:12] Fairly new, yeah. I've been in there about a year. And what I found in that situation is that while I had doctrinal concerns, those are irrelevant if they know there's sin in your life. And through those 17 years, I definitely earned it, especially in, like the last five years of it. So once they learn their sin, they don't care if you believe it or not. They've got you on the sin and boom. So there was no discussion on my doctrinal differences, and I think that's important for people to understand.

John Dehlin [00:21:42] So they just excommunicated you?

Shawn McCraney [00:21:44] Yeah, excommunicated.

John Dehlin [00:21:45] Did you complain? Did you go down writing?

Shawn McCraney [00:21:48] No, I asked to be excommunicated. I requested that. They said, well, what if we don't want to? And I said, well, then I'll continue to pursue it to be excommunicated. Because I said, listen, if I want to come back to this church, I want to come back on my own choice, and I want it all severed so that I can re. Choose it if I. If I.

John Dehlin [00:22:04] And were you thinking of yourself as a born again Christian at this time?

Shawn McCraney [00:22:07] Yeah, I was a born again Christian, truly, Because this was in 2000, 2001, and my experience was in 97.

John Dehlin [00:22:13] Yeah.

Shawn McCraney [00:22:14] And that's hard for some people to understand. What do you mean? You're a born again Christian, and then you still have sin in your life? Well, you certainly do. And it's not a miraculous change. It's a progressive growing that you do in the Lord and with his Word and he leads you there. But so that thing is, how did you, in 97, say you're born again? How come you didn't become this perfect guy? Well, I'm still far from being a perfect guy.

John Dehlin [00:22:40] You know, that's part of the point of, I think your message. Yeah, it's not about perfection.

Shawn McCraney [00:22:44] No.

Impact on Family During Transition

John Dehlin [00:22:46] What was this like for your wife and kids while you were becoming disaffected all the way through your excommunication?

Shawn McCraney [00:22:53] Mary, my wife, she has known me since I was 18, and she knew me to be always questioning, seeker type. So she's gone through a lot and she thought this was another deal of him searching because, you know, I went from metaphysics to philosophy to Marx and Engels and Lenin and Trotsky and I embraced communism for a while and thought that was the answer. So she saw me go through all of this and just thought, oh, now here comes the born again Christian thing. And she wasn't really going to buy into it and she was kind of set and staying in the church and so I supported her in that. And I think that's important for people to understand in marriages that if you come out in for some reason and you become an atheist or you become a Christian to love your spouse, you know, I don't know what the motive would be if you're an atheist because you can't say the non God tells you to love. But at least for the. For the Christian, the command is love. So love your spouse. And if they stay lds, you love them. You know, and in our ministry we see so many families break up because someone comes to be a Christian and then they divorce their spouse. You know, it's unconscionable. It goes counter to what the gospels are about. So that's an important point. So I say you use love. And I drove my kids to the church. When they saw me falling away, I get excommunicated. I still supported them and everything.

John Dehlin [00:24:20] Was it traumatic for them though?

Shawn McCraney [00:24:22] It was more confusing for them because they didn't know really what to believe. They trusted me as their father in terms of information and at the same time, they like the culture. So it just took a process for them to kind of be exposed to both and then decide what they want. At one time, I remember my one daughter tell her friend that she was a Mischian, a Mormon Christian, because she really wasn't sure what they were. But what helped them was I changed. That bastard who came off the mission field and got the callings and was just very unhappy, he changed.

John Dehlin [00:24:57] So as an LDS dad, you weren't a fun guy to be around?

Shawn McCraney [00:25:01] No, you know, I played that role, but it just really wasn't me. You know, I am a much better father. As a Christian or as somebody, I don't even need to use the word Christian. As somebody who's been freed from the bondage and yoke of what I believe is institutionalized religion. So I wouldn't even bring Christianity into it. The freedom set me free and allowed me to then be free to love them.

John Dehlin [00:25:31] It's Like a big weight was lifted off the shoulders.

Guest [00:25:33] Huge weight.

Shawn McCraney [00:25:34] Huge. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:36] So how did you go from you being excommunicated to your wife and kids leaving the church?

Shawn McCraney [00:25:42] That took four years for my wife. And they all have left intellectually and in their heart in terms of belief, but none of them have had their names removed. Yeah. So they're still on by. And what's interesting is your name.

John Dehlin [00:25:56] You've been excommunicated. Yeah.

Shawn McCraney [00:25:58] Okay, so they're still on and they. My one daughter wants to take her name off and whatever you want to do.

John Dehlin [00:26:04] Okay, but how about to the point of them actually deciding not to go anymore? You know, be active.

Shawn McCraney [00:26:09] It came about processionally and over a course of four or five years they lived with me. They saw this wasn't a flight of fancy of their dad's going from another ism, and they said, this is kind of real with him. And so that helped them kind of make the change.

Guest [00:26:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:28] Were you fortunate enough to have your wife and kids at some point, have a born again experience like you did?

Guest [00:26:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:38] And what was the progression or the steps that led to that, if it happened?

Shawn McCraney [00:26:46] It's a really good question because starting off, they were very afraid of what I was doing and were hesitant to look at anything I was doing. And then in time, my wife, after four years, saw that my change internally and outwardly was permanent, or at least stronger. And so she had her own experience in praying to the Lord, and it didn't happen radically like me. Hers was in time, she just came to see and her eyes open and she now sees and speaks and believes like a Christian. But her religious spiritual rebirth was not a really big event. And that's important for people to understand because not everybody. God does not work with us all in the same way. And, you know, sometimes people say, well, what day and time were you born again? You know, some people don't know that he works in different ways. And with my wife Mary, she's such a good person that a guy like me, God probably had to give me something really strong. But she. He worked with her gently. And in time, she really came to see what everything was. Well, when she did, then my other daughters had born spiritual regenerative experiences. My one was radical. She went to Europe to backpack with her older sister and she came back a change girl. And she works with me in the ministry now. The younger one is still. She's 16 and she's searching. She believes in Jesus and she believes in the Christian way, but I'm not so sure that she's had the experience yet. My oldest is the fallout, so to speak, from her father uprooting the family and ripping those roots out from under them. And it's very difficult to do that.

John Dehlin [00:28:35] Fall out in what way?

Shawn McCraney [00:28:36] Well, she's not a believer in anything. No, she's much more humanistic. She's a great girl. I love her to death, but she is just. She doesn't fully go this way and I just believe that that's a matter of time. And she's come along and progressed in her belief. She doesn't discount God altogether like she at one time did. But there is a cost. You know, it's not always easy. But if you have faith and you do love, those are the two Christian commandments, in my opinion of the New Testament. You believe and you love. And if you do those two things, as someone coming out of Mormonism or any religion, your family will, I believe, come through. If you transpose any of those with disbelief or anger, then you start getting all messed up. So that's how it happened in our family.

John Dehlin [00:29:27] Do you think your oldest daughter feels like she's a disappointment to you? Do you think she feels disapproval or sadness or.

Shawn McCraney [00:29:36] I think that she watches our program. She sees the people who come and I think sometimes she would feel like a little sadness for not gripping at all. But you know, she certainly does not get that from her mother or from me. My daughter Mallory can die an atheist and I'm going to love her with all my heart. And I don't cram religion down her throat or Jesus. I just love her and she asks questions and that's how I believe it should go.

Extended Family Reactions and Starting Over

John Dehlin [00:30:10] What was it like for extended family when you went through your transition? Your wife's parents are believers?

Shawn McCraney [00:30:18] They're believers. Her father passed away. Not real strong, very kind of. They go very active, but not doctrinally strong. So they were bothered, I shouldn't even say upset. They were bothered a little. But I live in my mother in law's house with my wife and she is, she's seen me change too. So any problems she's had, she knew me before and she likes me much better now. So she doesn't have many complaints, you know, even though she's still faithful in the LDS Church. My parents pretty good. My mom's pretty strong in the church. It's been okay with them. My dad's not really a strong believer, so he doesn't really care. My siblings been more difficult. My younger brother very, very strong and he does not appreciate what I do at all. And so that has been probably the most difficult relationship that has resulted in My immediate family.

John Dehlin [00:31:17] You guys still get together and hang out. It's really tough family reunions. It's just a big wedge, kind of.

Shawn McCraney [00:31:23] We just don't go anywhere. Everybody's lds, everything revolves around Mormonism. And so there's a loss there. And that's hard, but it's worth it, you know, but it's hard.

John Dehlin [00:31:35] So you're pretty estranged from your siblings?

Shawn McCraney [00:31:38] I'm estranged from them. Not in the sense I know they love me and I love them and if something happened, I call them if they are ill or something. But it's not like it was. Not at all. I am now the black. I'm the official black sheep.

John Dehlin [00:31:54] So.

Shawn McCraney [00:31:55] But it's okay. So from there, Park City X Communication, I decided to then publish the book. I left the brokerage business completely.

John Dehlin [00:32:08] And this is in 2002. 2002, yeah. Okay.

Shawn McCraney [00:32:12] And I took jobs being a security guard and working in a parking lot, collecting fees. And I wrote the book, finalized all the book and put it together. During that time we self published it, 2500 copies.

John Dehlin [00:32:25] Did you have savings that you brought from California? How are you living?

Shawn McCraney [00:32:28] We moved from Park City, but I

John Dehlin [00:32:29] mean just to live to support your family?

Shawn McCraney [00:32:31] Yeah, we had savings, we had funds and I struggled to keep funds in. Borrowed money. We struggled a long time.

John Dehlin [00:32:42] So you weren't like a millionaire from your tax, from your stockbroking days?

Guest [00:32:46] No.

John Dehlin [00:32:46] Okay.

Shawn McCraney [00:32:47] No, I'm not a millionaire. Wasn't a millionaire ever. And not one now.

John Dehlin [00:32:49] Okay. Okay.

Shawn McCraney [00:32:50] Yeah, so we did the book and then I built a website and I decided to enter into this Calvary Chapel school of ministry to learn the Bible. That was a two year full time program.

John Dehlin [00:33:01] Is that here in Utah?

Shawn McCraney [00:33:02] No, it's in Costa Mesa, California. And so I did that and the website got about 10 hits every month. And I think that's when you kind of came on to me.

Guest [00:33:13] So you're.

Shawn McCraney [00:33:13] You were onto that one. And it was. The interesting thing is that in putting that website out, we had more heat from Christians than we did for Mormons. Mormons thought born again Mormon, that's cool. You know, that's us, you know. But the Christians really hated that title. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:29] Why?

Shawn McCraney [00:33:30] Oh, impossibility. You cannot be Mormon and born again. You know, that's just. Or if you're. If you're Mormon, Mormon and you're born again, you'll leave immediately. Well, my book said you don't have to.

John Dehlin [00:33:44] Okay, so your book makes it Makes a case for LDS Church members to stay in the church, but to be born again.

Shawn McCraney [00:33:50] Yeah. And then let God lead them where they need to be and not make some decision based off some information that upset them or personal insult. Let Jesus take over your life and, and let him just tell you what to do. And that was the whole premise of

John Dehlin [00:34:07] the book and the evangelical community. So give us some examples of what happened.

Shawn McCraney [00:34:12] They went online and all the major anti Mormon writers, Ed Decker, all these guys, I don't even know their names, they all came out against Bill McKeever. Sorry, Bill. You know, he's supposed to be my friend now. But they all came out publicly against this ministry that we started. And I was a Christian. I was in Bible school in a Calvary chapel, but they hated that title and they said I was preaching a false gospel. So the vitriol from them was as bad as from the LDS as I'm about to graduate.

John Dehlin [00:34:44] That must have been discouraging.

Shawn McCraney [00:34:46] It was very discouraging. Yeah. But I knew I was born again and I knew I was lds, so no one could tell me, you cannot know Jesus and be a member of the LDS Church. In fact, today I know there are plenty of people who are active, faithful members of the LDS Church who are better Christians than I've ever been. And I trust that completely. My, my deal is not about religion. My deal is about people having the relationship over the religion. And I know good, good Christian men and women who are in the LDS Church. So our ministry is one of the only ones who said, look it, Mormons can be Christians. And the anti guys hate that stuff. They make their living off the other side. You know, you're all going to hell. So as ridiculous as that is, we got the heat for it from there. I got a call from a manager of a television station here in Salt Lake City. I was trying to figure out ways to cook the books and eat them because we were so poor and no one wanted the book. And the station manager had seen the site a couple years earlier and said, do you want to come and be a guest on a show from our station?

John Dehlin [00:35:56] Was he Christian?

Shawn McCraney [00:35:57] Yeah, it's a Christian station. That's TV20 in Salt Lake City. So I was on this show, afternoon show, and it was live. And that show had averaged three or four calls every time they would do it. And we held the book up and said, listen, we're going to give away 10 copies, the first 10 copies of Born Again Mormon to anybody who wants it. And by the end of the show they had 130 requests. And so I went home.

John Dehlin [00:36:22] This is a local public access show on Christianity. What was it called at the time?

Shawn McCraney [00:36:27] Oh, gosh, it was Greg Johnson's program, who's very involved with Jeffrey Holland and Bob Millet and all that stuff, that ecumenical type thing. So it was Greg's program, and it just told the manager, he's onto something. So he called me a couple of weeks later. We met up, and he said, you want to do your own show?

John Dehlin [00:36:44] What year was that?

Shawn McCraney [00:36:45] This was 2005.

John Dehlin [00:36:47] 2005.

Shawn McCraney [00:36:48] 2005.

John Dehlin [00:36:49] Now, had you started a church or had you started.

Shawn McCraney [00:36:53] I graduated from pastoral school and I had nothing. It was just. I didn't know. I was working down in a parking lot and just sitting on the books. And this opportunity came into this television thing, you know.

John Dehlin [00:37:06] So did you go to Bible school to become a minister?

Shawn McCraney [00:37:11] I went to learn the Bible primarily. But they call you a pastor when you leave there.

John Dehlin [00:37:17] Two years?

Shawn McCraney [00:37:17] Yeah, two years.

John Dehlin [00:37:18] Is it expensive?

Shawn McCraney [00:37:19] No, it was very cheap.

Learning the Bible and Evangelical Christianity

John Dehlin [00:37:21] And you learned the Bible pretty well?

Shawn McCraney [00:37:24] I learned it differently than I had, and I appreciated the education. But so we. I get the invitation to do our own show, and I say, well, you know, it makes perfect sense. I don't have any money. I live in California. I've never done television before. Well, of course. Let's do this show. So we go to a dumpster, and we build a set out of this old wood. And I tell my. The people who are there, I want to make this set look like something that when people go by, they have to stop, like it's a bad accident and say, what the hell am I looking at right here? So we put up this Howdy, partner sign, and we make the set so hokey. And, you know, It's March of 2006 now, and it's Tuesday night. And they're like, okay, you know, five, four, three, two. I'm like, ty, I had, like, a note about this big, and I just started talking. We open up the phone lines, and the first or second or third calls a B1 professor. And he's like, sean, the Book of Mormon talks more about Jesus. I'm sorry if this is mocking, but that's how he was. Talks more about Jesus quantitatively than the Bible does. Don't you find that to be a bit ironic? And, man, it was game on. And I just said, okay, we're gonna battle, I guess. And we have never been without phone calls. The show went. The website went from getting 10 hits a month to we get, you know, Half a million or more a month. Now we get 200 emails from all over the world from people who are seeking to understand it. The show goes to 450,000 households, potential households in Idaho, Utah, Montana. We stream video all over the world. We have reprinted the book three times. We're doing it again. We're getting another version to come out. And the Lord has blessed it greatly. And I don't believe the Lord has blessed it because it's against Mormonism. I believe the Lord has blessed it because we used him as the operative key in a person's life to figure out what they want to do. Now, the show itself, that becomes controversial. You want to talk about that a. Separately?

John Dehlin [00:39:39] We'll talk about that in a bit.

Guest [00:39:39] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:39:40] At any point, have you started a church?

Shawn McCraney [00:39:43] We started a Bible study and we called it Lord's Word. And we started kind of being church like. And I just realized I'm really not about church. So we pulled back and we renamed something called Calvary Campus Christian Assemblies Meeting to prayerfully understand Scripture. We meet at universities on Sundays and I teach the Bible verse by verse. We get somewhere 80 to 100 people, most of them having come out of Mormonism and not really knowing what to do. That's what I do. It's an hour a week and probably will never plant a church. Probably never be a pastor over a church.

John Dehlin [00:40:19] Do you preach at churches ever?

Shawn McCraney [00:40:21] I talk at churches. I get invited. It's really funny, John, because the evangelical Christian community, as you want to call it, collectively here in the state, three churches have had me come. The rest of them continue to not like my methods. They'll let us do the dirty work. And we know we send people all the time who come in from Mormonism into their church, but they just don't like me, I guess they don't like my. They think I'm really arrogant or full of bravado or they don't like my method. But it's effective, you know, and that's.

John Dehlin [00:40:55] Again, it's got to be hard to have given your life to Jesus, to evangelical Christianity. Is that what you'd like to call it? What do you like to call it?

Shawn McCraney [00:41:05] Not at all.

John Dehlin [00:41:05] What do you call it?

Shawn McCraney [00:41:06] You know, I am a believer in Jesus, and I do not want any connection to evangelical Christianity. Christianity, even. Even though it has a great onset from Antioch way back, even that today is scary because of the way people approach it, you know, So I want to be known as someone who follows Jesus and that's not even his name, you know, Know Jesus or Yahshua Yeshua. I want to follow him and him alone. And I don't care about religion. You know, I really don't. I don't care if LDs stay in the church. You know, I tell them, look, come out if you want, get out of there. And this is the reason why. But. But come to know the Lord first. Know who he is. And others who say, hey, I'm staying in. Well, do you know the Lord? Yeah, whatever. You know, it's free.

John Dehlin [00:41:53] So you don't associate with any strain of Christianity other than. I had no idea. I would have just pegged you as evangelical.

Shawn McCraney [00:42:02] I know I seem like one of those raving guys, but I'm really not.

What It Means to Be Born Again

John Dehlin [00:42:06] All right, Sean, this has been great. I'm ready to move to the second part of what I hope to accomplish. For this part, I'm not interested so much in talking about, you know, criticizing the LDS Church just for its own sake. Not that you do that, but I do sometimes. What I'm most interested in, in this second part is having you give the pitch for what Christianity is about. If you want to get into doctrine, that's cool. If you want to get into theology, that's cool. If you just want to get into the experience, it's okay to contrast with the church, but not as a way to criticize the church again, more as a way to inform the difference and from your perspective, the beauty or the meaning or the import of, I don't want to say your brand of Christianity, but of Christianity as you see it. So imagine that there are listeners out there who have left Mormonism, left the church. They don't know what to think. Maybe they're atheist, maybe they're agnostic. Maybe they're still Christian. They're probably distrustful of institutions. They probably have read enough biblical criticism or historical criticism to even question the foundations of Christianity. And most importantly, as I mentioned before, they're just gun shy of churches. It's just like I'm out of the church business. Why? You know, paint a picture for your message and what it can mean to people, why it's important.

Shawn McCraney [00:43:50] Okay, let me preface. I'm going to do. This is an opportunity for me to give what I believe is the plan of salvation. It's like the old missionary thing. But let me preface it by saying this. It is certainly not about a church or organized religion. There are Hindus who are born again. They don't know who Jesus is, but they have that connection through him changing and giving them a heart. There are Muslims. There are People everywhere. The church is made up of believers, not a denomination, not a specific group or institution. It's made up of believers. And there are Baptist churches and Pentecostal churches and Catholic churches and Mormon churches that have all kinds of people in there who they are not believers. Okay. And there's a bunch of those churches, Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, all these same churches that have these certain people who are. And that's what makes up the body of Christ.

John Dehlin [00:44:59] Okay, what are they if you're a Hindu or Muslim? What are you believing in if you've never heard of Jesus?

Shawn McCraney [00:45:04] Well, they believe in the God that they know and they believe in what they have been taught. But we know that there are, there are seven. I can't recall them. So please don't ask ways that God reveals himself through nature as one. So we always say, well, what about the Aborigine? Well, the Aborigine looks to the sky and says, I believe there's something bigger. God works through that. He works through his law written on our hearts. He works through His Word written in print. He works through his Holy Spirit. He works through all these means and people. So now I don't mean to make it seem like a general thing. There's a lot of Muslims and a lot of Hindus. I think they're the exception, But I believe they do exist.

John Dehlin [00:45:41] Okay, so I want to get to the core thing. I don't want to start off on a tangent, but. So you're, you can have a born again experience never hearing the name Jesus?

Shawn McCraney [00:45:53] Yes, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:45:54] That's credible in God's eyes.

Shawn McCraney [00:45:55] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:45:57] So it's to the love and to the faith and to the redemption. I mean, what are they?

Shawn McCraney [00:46:01] The acquiescence of a higher power that redeems them and saves them to see themselves and something bigger than them and that spirit, he gives them that spirit and that spirit dwells in their heart and changes them so they don't know Jesus. Anybody who says you have to know the name Jesus is in this life to be saved is really being myopic because first of all his name's not Jesus. So what is that about? You know? And the way that, the way to save this thing from a biblical perspective is that Jesus was God, you see, so you acquiesce to God and then you have that connection whether you knew Jesus or not. So that's the point. I want people to understand, prefacing my pitch and that is the religions aren't going to save you. And they might claim to, but they're not going to do it. It's going to be you finding truth through. I believe God will give anybody who's willing to hear it. Now, my pitch is this. God created a world, and he put Adam and Eve in it, and it was a beautiful place. And he told them to multiply and replenish the earth. And I believe they could have done it. And if they didn't know how to do it, they could have said, God, help me out, man. We don't know what that means. And they would have gone to him in their relationship and he would have told them. Now, Adam and Eve were made of three parts. They're made of a body and they're made of a soul, and they were made of a spirit. Some people think soul and spirit are the same, but they're not. In the Greek, soul is the psuche. And it's the mind, and it's your will and it's your emotions. So just imagine Adam as three in one, okay? We have his soul, his mind, will and emotion. And he has an apartment in his heart where the Holy Spirit dwells. And he's created by God, and God breathes into his body and he becomes a living soul. And that spirit, he relates to God in this garden, right? And Eve. And they have this relationship, and God gives them two commandments. Multiply, replenish the earth, don't eat of the tree. They decided, look, we're going to take the shortcut to knowledge. And they brought sin into this world. And my point in saying all that is God told Adam, you're going to die in your. You're going to die if you eat of that fruit. And when he took of that fruit, he didn't die. He lived to 920 years of age, but he died spiritually. And that apartment in his heart shut down. Empty, Dead. And so, men and women, we now operate in a bipartite system, body and soul. We are spiritually dead. We don't have any apartment in us open to God anymore. Which is why Jesus in John 3 said to Nicodemus, you must be born again. That which is born of the spirit of spirit. You have to have that apartment opened up again. And that Holy Spirit comes into you and it takes over your life and it allows you to experience God in the first way. Okay? So we go through our life and we were born in this fallen world, and we are all sinners by nature. And we all rely on our mind, will and emotion and body to get through life. Now, s. Some people choose to do things Very bad in their mind, will and emotions and body. And some people choose to do a lot of good in their mind. But all of us still fail. And so we have a need of a redeemer. And my pitch is this, that God came down in the flesh and he redeemed us and all the variances in the story. I believe he was a historical figure. I believe he was God in the flesh. And I believe he died on the cross and he shed his blood, which typified what they had been doing, the Jews, with animals forever. And that blood, when you believe on that, that saves you. It's not your good life that you've lived, or it's not the evil life you lived. It's your faith on him that saves you. Once that occurs and that Holy Spirit opens that apartment back up, you then are a tripartite being. And you start to let that Holy Spirit operate in your life and it starts to work on your body, mind, will and emotion and get it in line with God. That's processional. So spiritual rebirth, just like physical birth is immediate. No, no woman gives birth over the course of a lifetime. It's an immediate event that comes by faith. And the Holy Spirit comes inside you. Once that occurs, you, you still are a sinful. You're a babe in Christ is what the Bible says. So you make messes. You're still addicted to drugs or alcohol. You still have been changed. You're redeemed, you die, you go to heaven. But the Holy Spirit is there working with you to get better. That is where the works come. That's where the sanctification of your life comes. The LDS Church distribute is very good at sanctifying people. They do a wonderful job at helping people progress in their body, in their lives. But they ignore the horse that goes before the cart. You have to change the Spirit first within you to motivate you to do those things rather than reverse doing those things to change the Spirit. And that's the big conflict, tension between Evangelical Christianity, Christianity and the LDS Church. So my plea is to not believe me, is to not believe your pastor or your religious leader. But you go to God and you test it. You say, look, I don't even know if you exist. You. He wants honesty. I don't even like you. He wants honesty. But I want to know. I want to know truth. You show me truth, that's all. And you open my eyes to truth. And I'm willing to receive whatever it is. That's my challenge. And I believe that what happens is he is Faithful to His promise. And when he comes in and he gives you and you become a full person again, like we were intended to be. You have fellowship with God, unlimited. Not being based, you weren't saved by your righteousness. You don't lose your righteousness based on your failures. So you have this place of security. And with that security comes unconditional love. And with that unconditional love comes a desire to serve this God and King who pulled you up and did, did this for you, even though you didn't deserve it. So in that sense, it's liberating. So what I would suggest and what I would offer in my experience and the experience experience of millions of others is freedom. Freedom from the yoke of tithing, whether it's in a Christian church, Sabbath days, dress codes, outward appearances. And what it does is you leave that law of the letter that the children of Israel were under and you now live under the law of love, the two great commandments. And you get convicted when you fail in your love and that Holy Spirit convicts you and you then say Lord and you move on. And I say it's the most liberating, life enhancing thing to come about in your life and all it requires is a willingness for God to work in you. That's my pitch.

How LDS Views on Salvation Differ from Evangelical Christianity

John Dehlin [00:52:49] What are the key elements of how the LDS Church views the atonement or salvation that you feel like can be harmful? Yeah, you've talked about it a little bit, but let's just focus in on that. How does the LDS Church get Christianity wrong?

Shawn McCraney [00:53:10] Okay. The LDS Church believes that it's a combination of his grace and your works. It's like, you know, after all that you can do, you're saved by grace after all that you can do. Now that's been rewritten and massaged a little bit by the LDS leaders. And it means after everything we've done, we're still saved by grace. All the variances are there. But nevertheless, they still believe that you are saved not by the blood of Christ alone, but by his blood, which gives you the opportunity to repent. Then to show forth a life of works, which in the end you're still short of the mark. But then Jesus says, well, you've done a good job. I'm going to pull you up now. And you're saved by grace and works. But biblically, if you believe the Bible or biblically it states you can't have both. It's either this or it's that. And so the lds, they give you an admixture of, of grace and works. I know they believe in grace. And the biggest manifestation of grace to the LDS is the fact that we all get resurrected. That's a free gift. And they say that's a graceful thing. And also the fact that he shed his blood. And so when a Latter Day Saint sins, they do have the repentance process to go through, but it misses the mark. And it's. The best way to explain it would be for me to give a quick analogy. There's a village, there's a king in that village. And the king says, listen, I'm going to give you a servant and he's going to give you your food, he's going to take care of mending your clothes, he's going to do your chores for you, okay? And the thing you need to do to understand is you just believe that that servant has come, alright? Now there are two groups in that village. There's one group who said, I believe it. And they sit back and they say, I trust in that completely. And that servant shows up and, and he cleans and he brings them their food and he's a wonderful guy. There's another group that says, I believe that servant came, but I also believe that I can do some things to make him love me more. So I'm going to put up a picture of the king outside my house and I'm going to dress really nice when the servants around and maybe he's going to love me more and the king will love me more. But it's never been based on that. It's always been based on the king gave a servant and he loves the whole village the same. And where the LDs go wrong is they start thinking that by the temple rituals or by their works or by their Sabbath day or their tithing or all these Old Testament manifestations of the law are somehow going to justify them before God. When God sent his son to shed his blood, you know, what the heck is tithing going to do when his own son sheds his blood? So I think where they miss it is they add that stuff in. Now there are some who say that's just not true. And we get into all these polemics and everything else, but I believe generally I'm speaking truth, that Mormonism teaches salvation is a resurrection. Exaltation takes this effort and work of righteousness on your own part.

John Dehlin [00:56:14] Is baptism by water required in your theology for salvation?

Shawn McCraney [00:56:19] No. We go to the thief on the cross, no font there. And that Old Testament idea of sheol, paradise and prison. And Jesus says, you're gonna be with Me in paradise. That's Abraham's bosom. He went there by virtue of just him saying, you know, hey, remember me? And so there's no baptism there. Now, the LDS missionaries I know say that he was vicariously baptized later. But baptism is another thing you throw in with the blood. Now, anybody who believes in Jesus and wants to follow him is probably going to say, I want to be baptized. And I wasn't baptized for like six years after being a Christian. And when I was, it was miraculous. It really is a wonderful thing. But it does not save you. Water can't save you. Circumcision can't save you. Circumcision didn't make a Jew a Jew. And a pagan can circumcise himself, and it didn't make him a Jew. It was. It's identification. Baptism is just a mode of identification. Not definitely not a. A rite necessary for salvation.

The Process of Becoming Born Again

John Dehlin [00:57:17] As a final part of your pitch, talk to an individual, potential believer. Tell them what the process would be for them to be born again and what you believe it would bring to their lives.

Shawn McCraney [00:57:35] Okay. Isaiah and Peter, a few other Old Testament prophets, when they came to understand who God was, they said, stay away, man. I'm a sinner. Isaiah said, I am a man undone when he came to see the glory of God. So the first thing to understand is what brings you to the point where you, as a capable, handsome, financially successful guy or whatever, is going to call out to this God to save them. And it has to be. You understand who he is. Like Socrates says, if we understood things, we wouldn't sin. Well, if we understand who he is and his glory and power and his strength, you will break. And that's the point you want to get to. So you acquiesce. You realize who you are relative to God. Do you have things that cannot be accounted for in terms of your life? Have you done things wrong? Do you need strength? And when you believe that you do relative to who this glorious God is, you go to him and say, lord, I'm a sinner. I've made mistakes. Now, you might be a really bad sinner, and you might not be a bad sinner at all, but you're still a sinner. And I want to be born again God. And so I'm asking Jesus blood to cleanse me and come in and take over my life. Be my sovereign Lord and king. You're making a new guy your king, and he's internal. And you're willing to do what he wants you to do. If you play games and it's semantical and it's perfunctory. Forget it. It ain't going to happen. But if you're broken and you want that, he'll give it to you, he promises. And what that will do is it will free you from all the confines and restrictions of men, and it free frees you from not only from the burden of sin that you've carried, but it frees you from the sins that you continue to do. Now, I know some people will say, well, that seems pretty slick. You know, you get to descend like there's no tomorrow. I have never met a Christian believer who says, I'm saved by grace. I can sin never. It's something that people say who don't understand it. When someone has been broken and realized that someone has stepped in and reached down and pulled them up from the gutter, then they experience rebirth. And they're grateful. And out of that gratitude, they serve. And they want to be righteous. And that is part of that progression. So I would pitch that if you want true freedom, you can have it only, only through Christ. Now that's dogmatic in this day and age, but it is absolutely certain. And he will give you that freedom. Come unto me, all you that are heavy laden, and I will give you rest, not a burden. And he makes the captives free.

John Dehlin [01:00:32] What does that feel like?

Shawn McCraney [01:00:37] You know, I don't know that it's a feeling. I think that it's a realization I feel with my hands, I can feel this, but with my eyes, I don't feel. It's a sense, but it's not a feeling. And I would liken spiritual rebirth to vision, not the tactileness of a feeling. Like people will say, you get a burning, but to seeing clarity and seeing the world for what it is. And because you now have truth, capital T him in your life, you then operate from a different platform and you are liberated from all the burdens that come with life. And I was the most burdened man. And I admit that readily. I wish I had the intestinal fortitude and moral character that many of my LDS brothers and sisters have, and I didn't. And there's a lot of people out there who don't. And so what happens to them? Where do they go in a religion that demands certain things for purity? When Jesus said man, he hung out with the worst of them. And so we have some people in there, we have a lot of them, we deal with them, and they like a little coffee on the side, Sly, or they like a little whiskey, or they like to smoke. But they are damn good people or they have some moral problems. What do they do when those problems plague them? And they're a member of that church because in the end, you know, it's conform or be cast out. And they're cast out to the gutter and what do they get? So I would suggest to the LDS audience, listen to me on this, that if Mormonism is true, let's just say it is. We are taking people from the telestial kingdom and we're bringing them up to the terrestrial, we're taking them from the gutter and we're saying Jesus is good and these people's lives change because of Him. You can bag on me all you want, but bottom line, we see, we have seen hundreds of lives changed like this and they never had a. I could, I was never really a Mormon and that's my problem. And I know that will be used against me. Well, he never really had the spirit and all that. And all I can say is, what can I do?

Guest [01:02:56] You know?

Shawn McCraney [01:02:57] But I do have the Lord now. So when I die and go before him and a Latter Day Saint dies and goes before God and the Latter Day Saint says, God says, tell me why you get to come to live with me. The Latter Day Saint says, well, I did this and I did this and I tried to do that. I'm going to say, I did nothing. I have nothing of value to give you. You, but you gave your son for me. And because of that I have life, his blood cleansed this reprobate that had no other options. And I tried, you know, I tried God, but I have no other options. And he came in and he reached below the dirt and pulled me up and saved me and made me a better man. So I couldn't get that through. I trying to be a good LDS man, I couldn't do it.

Guest [01:03:41] And so I, I got it from him and I can't renounce that and I can't change it.

Shawn McCraney [01:03:47] And he's put on my heart to

Guest [01:03:48] help reach the LDS people who so many are burdened. There are some good people who have all the right serotonin levels and they've

Shawn McCraney [01:03:57] made the right choices, they have the

Guest [01:03:59] right education and they've got it all together. And I know those families and my hat's off to them. I'm never going to affect them with my program. But we get those people who live in the trailers who are trying to get to sacrament meeting in their di clothes and you know, the Lord changes their lives. And so I'm so grateful to be a part of that and to be able to do something with the life I've been given.

John Dehlin [01:04:26] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. To comment on this episode or to provide feedback, please check us out at Mormonstra. If you want to help keep Mormon Stories alive, please consider either making a financial contribution or spreading the word about this episode through your blog, Twitter account, Facebook page, family newsletter, or through your Ward Bulletin and Ward newsletter.

John Dehlin [01:04:49] Just kidding about those last two.

John Dehlin [01:04:51] Also, this is a shout out to my tragically hip friends@studiocase.com in New York City that includes Travis, Jeff, Enoch and Tony for designing my new Mormon Stories podcast logo. Please check these amazingly talented guys out@studiocase.com and finally, music on this episode was provided by Clayton and Sky Pixton. Check them out@claytonpixton.com or skypixon.com that's sky with an E S K Y-E pixton.com thank you.

Shawn's Ministry and Outreach to Mormons

Part 2 of 3 · Ep. 127

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Mormon Stories podcast takes a ton of work and depends solely upon listener support to keep this program alive and to help me make it through grad school. Please consider a donation today@mormonstories.org.

John Dehlin [00:00:40] After that wonderful segment. I don't want to drag it down into sort of this back and forth bash or anything like that. No interest in that. I do have a lot of questions that are going to seem challenging on face value. Not because I'm trying to put you in a corner. Not because I'm trying to lay a trap. Not that I could. I wouldn't want to mess with you. There are a lot of questions. People have a lot of questions I have. You've answered a lot of them and just what you've said so far. But I just thought we'd do a Q and A for an hour, hour and a half and just go through as many of these as we can.

Shawn McCraney [00:01:18] All right.

John Dehlin [00:01:18] Is that all right?

Shawn McCraney [00:01:19] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:01:20] So you have an organization. What's it called again?

Shawn McCraney [00:01:22] Alathia ministries. It's a 501 California tax exempt. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:01:27] So it's a non profit.

Shawn McCraney [00:01:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:01:28] So donations to your organization are tax exempt?

Shawn McCraney [00:01:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:01:31] Okay. And what are the main products or offerings or programs?

Shawn McCraney [00:01:37] Tv.

John Dehlin [00:01:37] It's just all the TV program, television

Shawn McCraney [00:01:39] program and our Bible studies. That's pretty much it. We put them all online. Yeah, that's.

John Dehlin [00:01:44] And you exist purely through donations of supporters? Yeah. Okay. A lot of people criticize the LDS Church for their lack of financial transparency. Are you guys financially transparent?

Shawn McCraney [00:01:57] Anyone can see where we spend our money and why.

John Dehlin [00:02:00] What's your. I mean, are you comfortable talking about, like the annual revenue?

Shawn McCraney [00:02:03] Last year I think we brought in about 86,000.

John Dehlin [00:02:09] That's all?

Shawn McCraney [00:02:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:10] That's awesome.

Shawn McCraney [00:02:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:12] And your cost?

Shawn McCraney [00:02:13] Year before that? Nothing.

John Dehlin [00:02:15] So last year was your first year

Shawn McCraney [00:02:16] to make, to have. Well, I shouldn't say nothing. The year before that I think it was about 13, 14,000. And before that, less and less. We're not in this for the money. I know most people think we are. I do not make money. And I funded it, quite frankly, through credit for the first three years. And I can prove that to anybody.

John Dehlin [00:02:41] You talked about your show a bit. It's broadcasted to Utah, Idaho and Montana through public access?

Shawn McCraney [00:02:49] No, it's cable. It's dish and it's broadband. It's all.

John Dehlin [00:02:55] Do you have to pay licensing fees or how do you get picked up?

Shawn McCraney [00:03:00] Station. Other networks can pick us up, but we're not picked up by any other television station. It's just KTMW. TV20 and a sister station in Boise, Idaho.

John Dehlin [00:03:10] Okay.

Shawn McCraney [00:03:10] So the rest of the world, or United States, whatever, understands who we are by virtue of the Internet.

John Dehlin [00:03:17] Okay. Through. Through the streaming that happens online archives.

Shawn McCraney [00:03:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:20] Okay. What do you think the key to your success has been? How many people do you think you've reached in terms.

Shawn McCraney [00:03:27] Well, you can break that down. Reached. Millions.

John Dehlin [00:03:32] Millions have watched your show.

Shawn McCraney [00:03:33] Yeah, millions have watched the show.

John Dehlin [00:03:35] That's pretty cool.

Shawn McCraney [00:03:36] Yeah, it is. It's radical in terms of actually done something to. Well, there's a segment of people who go online to research Mormonism. Then they click on a YouTube video and that helps them to say, I'm not going to do this. Others. Then we have a segment of people who are coming out, and so it tutors them. All the shows. 200 shows are available. And then we have. We know of from emails at least, maybe 300, maybe a little less, of people who have actually were core LDS believers, at least in the sense that they belonged and went. Who have left because of the program.

John Dehlin [00:04:16] And they've written you?

Shawn McCraney [00:04:17] Yeah. Who have written us. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:19] What's your schedule like?

Shawn McCraney [00:04:21] I fly in on Saturday morning to Utah from California, and I do the Bible study on Sunday. I meet with LDS people all the time, searching people all the time, and then we do the show on Tuesday night. I write the show and the sermons throughout the week, and I fly back home on Wednesday. Wednesday is my day off. Thursday and Friday I'm working on the sermon. And that's. I've done that for four years.

John Dehlin [00:04:46] So Sabbath isn't a day of rest for you?

Shawn McCraney [00:04:48] No, no.

John Dehlin [00:04:50] And your wife's living with her parents in California and you have a daughter going to school there?

Shawn McCraney [00:04:56] No, my oldest daughter graduated from college and my middle daughter is in Utah and my younger. Oh, yeah. Going to school. I thought you meant college. Yeah, high school.

John Dehlin [00:05:05] Okay, Going to school.

Shawn McCraney [00:05:07] And when she graduates, we will move

John Dehlin [00:05:08] up, bring it full time.

Shawn McCraney [00:05:10] Yeah, it's really been a benefit not to live in the state, because we do. I do have people. I mean, we've had some death threats and we've had some. Some angry stuff. So it's beneficial for me to leave. And it's been nice to come back, do what I do, and get out of here.

John Dehlin [00:05:26] So the. The year that you plan on coming to Utah full time is when?

Shawn McCraney [00:05:29] 2011.

John Dehlin [00:05:30] Okay. So you know, Utah. Get ready.

Shawn McCraney [00:05:34] Yeah, get ready.

John Dehlin [00:05:35] A couple more years.

Shawn McCraney [00:05:36] I don't know if it'll make any difference.

John Dehlin [00:05:37] To prepare. Yeah. So death threats, Is that. Is it scary doing what you do.

Shawn McCraney [00:05:46] I say to everybody. And it sounds kind of tongue in cheek, but I really believe the Lord has my back. And I think that if it's. If someone, you know, the funny thing about the death threats is they call and say they're going to come and take me out. If someone's really going to take me out, they're not going to call and warn me, you know, so it's. It's kind of a game. And there haven't been that many. Generally, I find the LDs very aloof, but you can see them. They know and they watch. And that's another one of the beneficial things about the program. Never been done before, I don't think. But in the quiet of their home, when no one's looking, they can watch the show. And they do. And so we know they're watching. But it takes time, you know? Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:32] So do people see on the street all the time? What do they say? Hey, you're that guy. Anybody ever yell at you or get really mad?

Shawn McCraney [00:06:38] Yeah, I've had them yell. I've had them say, yell in the airport. You're wrong. You know, things like that. And most people are just. The ones I love are the LDs who are secret searchers who come along, they've been in the church, they're usually in their 50s or 60s, their whole family, their grandkids, everybody's in it. And they're just like, I just don't believe it. But I don't know what to do. And I say, man, trust the Lord. You know, what are you going to do? You trust the Lord and see where he leads. You pray with Him. On they go. And I love those.

Communication Style, the Bible, and Epistemology

John Dehlin [00:07:15] So let's talk about your style a bit. Yeah, a lot of charisma, you know, the appearance, your hair is always doing interesting things. I always, I always assumed, even from that first website I saw, that you must have made millions in your stockbroker business and that that funded. I think it's just the metrosexual thing we talked about earlier. Yeah, but it's not true. But, but you do you, you know, you do have a style, for sure.

Shawn McCraney [00:07:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:45] But probably the most common question I get about you is when your show gets a little bit harsh when it. Some people say that they feel like there's mocking that goes on, sarcasm, strong words. I've listened to several episodes and yeah, sometimes the words are really strong. Sometimes the way you talk about the church leadership is quite harsh to a believer. So talk about your decision to take sort of a more aggressive tone because I mean, I think a lot of people are gonna really like what they see here. They're gonna go, wow, he's really reasonable and really moderate. For some people, you may reach them better in this format than your show. And some might even argue that your show might turn people off when you could have maybe brought them in more by being more moderate. So talk about the decision.

Shawn McCraney [00:08:48] The title of the book, Born Again Mormon, said it all. And I started the shows off much more passive. But I realized quickly that when I would say, you know, something that was certainly biblical and certainly from the Christian side, the LDS would call and they would say, it's so great. We all believe the same thing, you know. And so I realized the love method in television did nothing but make people who didn't know the differences say, we're all the same. And so I had to make a decision to start to call people on things. For instance, people LDs would call and say, well, I'm born again too. It's so wonderful. You wrote Born Again Mormon. And so then I'd have to say, well, how are you born again? And they say, well, I believe in Jesus, and I go to the temple and I pay my tithing and I do all this. And I say, well, now we have a problem. And they say, what do you mean, we have a problem? And I say, well, you got a problem, because those aren't. They don't fit with the Christian purview of what Born Again is. Well, who do you think you are? Well, who do you think you are? And I realized that I represented a segment of society who's voiceless. The tiny voices out there, and they never get to come back at somebody. They don't have the answers.

John Dehlin [00:10:07] They.

Shawn McCraney [00:10:07] They're not articulate with the knowledge of the gospel. And so it really soon became apparent that there's an entertainment segment to the show that comes with some of it. There's been a. I can probably count on two hands out of 200 shows how many times I've actually been angry. But when I'm, like, throwing down, I'm not angry. It's a method of trying to reach people, get them to think, slap them in the face, make them hate me, make him prove that he is wrong, get on the Internet, look up utlm, look up Joseph Smith had wives. He's such a liar. What? So it's all a tool. When I meet people on the plane going back and forth, and I do all the time who are LDs, the conversation's like this. And they say, well, I believe in The Book of Mormon. Okay. You know, I believe in Les Miserables. I think it's an inspired book too. Let's talk about that. And it's very gentle. But television, you have to understand, no one's going to tune in if I sit there like they do on the BYU channel and discuss doctrinal issues. So I've got to do something. That's why the style is always changing.

John Dehlin [00:11:14] Yeah, Just in response to that, I mean, that makes sense to me. I did pull a couple scriptures from the Bible. Not again to trap you, but just to like. I'm curious how you juxtapose what you just said with the Scripture. So, you know, first Corinthians, though I speak with the tongue of men and angels and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gifts of prophecy and I understand all the mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith so that I could remove mountains and have not charity, I am nothing. And then it goes on to define what charity is. Suffereth long and is kind, envieth not, vaunteth not up itself, is not puffed up. So an approach for TV is understandable. But then, like, how do you square that with God's word? Do you feel like you're sinning or justifying his law to be loving and patient and long suffering and meek and humble?

Shawn McCraney [00:12:24] And I believe all of those attributes, and they are part of my life. I believe they're part of my character and what I do one on one. But there's a time and place for methods. Jesus had no problem calling the Pharisees vipers. No problem. Alright? And he told them that they were the children of the devil. Okay? So there's a time when it is loving to make somebody wake up. Now, we live in a society where love is everything alright, and truth takes a back seat. That's called irresponsibility. If I got up there and just said, you know, I love you all, Jesus loves you too, that's irresponsible of me because they're under the idea of another type of soteriology. And so I have to bring truth in. So there's a balance between truth and love in terms of my charity, my agape love for them, as Corinthians talks about. I have it, and that's why I sacrifice to bring the message to them. And we live the way we have lived in order to do this. But what people see is what they perceive as being attacking. Now I attack with, here's Another thing about the show that people don't understand. Having been LDS for 40 years, when a caller calls me, I know almost ahead of time, not from a screener, but where they're going. And so I cut them off because I can see in my head where they're headed in their argument.

John Dehlin [00:13:49] And.

Shawn McCraney [00:13:49] And so it sounds like, well, that's just rude. But I can almost see the type of character who's coming at me, and that's why I do it. Now. I have LDS people call who I don't get that from, and I would never argue with them or call them down. As far as my treatment for the leaders, I have absolutely zero respect tolerance. I would call them vipers from the First Presidency and the twelve. None. I have nothing for them in terms of my decorum. I am consider myself John the Baptist to those guys, and I'm going to call them out on them. Assigning the name Apostle to themselves and walking about in their suits thinking they're apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ who gave their lives. They were hanged and boiled and everything else gave their lives for Christ. And these guys walk around and they assign it. And when they walk into a room, we stand. Give me a break. If you walked into a room, if Peter walked in, he'd say, sit down. I'm a fisherman, man. These guys I have no respect for. And so I call them out on it and they say, that's disrespectful. I believe Jesus would call them out, too. I think he'd call them vipers.

John Dehlin [00:14:58] You can use your pirate voice to do Peter.

Shawn McCraney [00:15:01] Did you see that?

John Dehlin [00:15:02] It failed miserably. Your Peter was like, arrr, mateys, ARR. I mixed a pirate with fishermen. Oh, it's embarrassing. We're talking about an episode where he tries to do Peter. Didn't quite work, but it was fun. It was fun. So epistemology, ways of knowing. Probably the second biggest question I got is, you know, you had some type of experience where you felt something, you interpret it in a certain way to mean something, and that's meaningful to you. Plenty of LDS church members would claim to have had their own version of a spiritual experience, some type of confirmation that leads them to know what they know, and they feel like they've had the same type of spiritual confirmation about the Book of Mormon and the Bible as you claim to have had about the Bible. And this puts you in the position of saying, I'm Sean McCraney, my witness and my spiritual experience. Superiority is superior to yours is valid and all yours is invalid.

Shawn McCraney [00:16:21] Okay. I believe we have a manual, the Bible. And I believe it's linguistically and archaeologically and geographically and all the other Iphicles based. I don't believe it's inerrant. I know it has problems, but you

John Dehlin [00:16:39] don't believe in an inerrant Bible.

Shawn McCraney [00:16:41] I believe in infallible, but not inerrant. And what I mean by that is it has everything necessary for you to know about God.

John Dehlin [00:16:48] Alright?

Shawn McCraney [00:16:48] And that word is infallible. It doesn't fail. It's not going to fail you. And knowing what God wants you to know, inerrant, forget it. You know, I mean, we have so many. I mean you translate the King James into, into Gaelic, you're going to have problems. So I don't believe in inerrancy, but I do believe in inerrancy in the original manuscripts. I do believe what God told Isaiah to write was inerrant. But at this point, inerrancy, no. But infallibility as being God's word in our hands now, yes, I do believe that. So I use that manual.

John Dehlin [00:17:21] Has that ever come across in your show? Sure, because the way I haven't seen them all, but the way you talk about the Bible comes across as I see the Bible as perfect. Now you're saying right now you acknowledge the areas where Judas dies one way here and another way in Acts and the Old Testament gets it wrong about the ages and the versions of the Gospels all contradict each other at various points in terms of the facts. Well, if we, if of the story,

Shawn McCraney [00:17:48] if we went down each one of those points, I think I can answer what those points are. But I do believe there are errors.

John Dehlin [00:17:55] You know, were the ones I mentioned some of the errors or not?

Shawn McCraney [00:17:58] No, I don't think the ones you mentioned are some of the errors.

John Dehlin [00:18:00] For instance, so Judas in the Gospels

Shawn McCraney [00:18:04] and the other ones boughs gushed out,

John Dehlin [00:18:05] falling in a field.

Shawn McCraney [00:18:07] Okay, if someone, if a car drives down a road and hits a tree and a cat jumps on the car and runs down the street and two people report it and one person said the car hit the tree and the other one said the car hit the tree and a cat jumped down, it doesn't make either account wrong. It just means one account has more information than the other one. I find it absolutely beautiful that the four Gospels are. They don't converge exactly, or else we would know there was a collusion there to deceive. But because they're different to me, bodes well that we did have different men writing different things and it's not all exact. That's okay with me. But anyway, inerrant. Go ahead.

John Dehlin [00:18:52] It just struck me that's a similar logic that the LDS apologists use to explain the multiple versions of the first vision, that depending on who the audience is and what's being written, that's what Joseph said.

Shawn McCraney [00:19:05] And I would say to those apologists, let me tell you something, if I saw God, it's going to be the same story every time.

John Dehlin [00:19:14] All right, okay.

Shawn McCraney [00:19:18] So, but in terms of epistemology. So to continue that.

John Dehlin [00:19:23] So what are the. What are the. What are some errors in the Bible that you would acknowledge?

Shawn McCraney [00:19:30] Dates. There's date problems. We have problems with some places that they say existed that were named one thing and Acts calls it another. There are some scribal problems in the Bible that we have today. And any Bible student today is going to admit that it's dogmatism. It's a, for lack of a better word, kind of a feeble mind that we'll say, this is a perfect book in every single letter that we have in our hands today. That's just not true. But I believe in probably a high, high percentage. I believe in 98, 99. I really do believe in a high percentage. And I believe all the higher criticisms can be answered with scholarship. Maybe they'll be weak. But I do believe that the Bible does have scribal problems. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:20:24] What about like in Genesis, it says, for I have seen God face to face. But in John it says, no man hath seen God at any time.

Shawn McCraney [00:20:31] Well, I mean, those are Hebraisms. If you look at most of the Old Testament, they use Hebraisms face to face just meant they talked to him. It doesn't necessarily mean his face to their face. It also said that there's aspects of God that are anthropomorphically assigned, but it's a Hebraism to help invoke what the person saw. Just like Isaiah talking about the wheels churning and spinning. We don't know what any of that that means. So I don't think those are inconsistencies. And if you have something where it says no one has seen God at any time, then. And that's. It's that straightforward, you have to understand then what the other ones are meaning. And so you look at context, you look at what has been said, and I think they're answerable, they're debatable. I'm not going to die on the hill. You know, if someone wants to say, well, I don't like that, you know what I tell the LDs when they say the Bible, as far as it's translated correctly, I can't trust the Bible. I say you show me the verses that aren't reliable and we'll just read the rest of them and see what it does for you. Come on. I mean, so you either have a general story there where all the elements are necessary for you to grow with God and understand who Jesus is, or you don't. So in terms of the Bible, that's my thought.

John Dehlin [00:21:47] And if someone you know, I could go through a big list of things, it sounds like your position is there very well could be factual errors in the Bible in terms of names or happenings, you're just going to concede all that and that maybe even that your apologetic explanations for those potential errors might even be at times as feeble as an LDS apologist? Absolutely. You're cool with all that?

Shawn McCraney [00:22:14] Oh, yeah. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:22:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:16] I don't think our listeners or viewers will have any idea that that's your position, but that sort of obsoletes many of the questions that I had around the Bible, which is totally fine.

Shawn McCraney [00:22:26] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:22:27] Okay. So back to epistemology.

Shawn McCraney [00:22:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:31] Your spiritual feelings versus the LDS church members. Spiritual experiences. Yours are valid, theirs aren't.

Shawn McCraney [00:22:37] Okay, well, going back, that's why I brought the Bible up. If you have an epistemological experience that says something is true that isn't supported by the book that I believe comes from God, then I have to question your epistemological experience. If we didn't, then everybody's experience is true. So if we're going to go by everybody's experience is true, then I have to say to the lds, if you say you had a burning in your bosom and you just know that something's true, well, what about the Muslim who says the same thing? Jehovah's Witness. How can we differentiate? If that's the case, then everything's willy nilly. Nothing really matters in terms of what we believe or what we do, and it's just a universalism. It's all good. You know what's different about my epistemology is that you cannot know something that is not true. I can't say I know that bridge is safe to cross. I know it is. I know it is. And then cross it and have it collapse on me. I didn't know it, I just believed it. Okay? So therefore I can only say I know that bridge is safe if it is 100% safe. There is only one guy or one thing that is labeled true in the scripture. New Testament and it's a capital T. True. And he said I am the way, the truth and the life. Alright? So the only thing I can know is who he is because he is true and unfailing. Everything else is up in the air to me. So my knowledge is not based on a feeling, like I said. You said it's a feeling. I don't say my roadside experience was this feeling. My experience was the knowledge that comes to knowing truth and it transcends feelings. It's like what I said, the difference between my feeling that this chair is hard versus my seeing. It's more of a seeing in my epistemology rather than a feeling. And I hope that makes some sense.

John Dehlin [00:24:44] Sure.

Universal Salvation, Depression, and Theology of God

John Dehlin [00:24:46] So earlier in the interview you were coming across. I was feeling Unitarian Universalistic. I mean, I was feeling like you were talking about Hindus and Muslims and what goes on in their heart. I mean you allowed for that. You allowed for even a member of the LDS Church to have that born again experience.

Shawn McCraney [00:25:05] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:25:09] So what if it's like this? What if everywhere there's baggage? I bet you would even concede that in other Christian faiths, evangelical whatever you might be a little bit sympathetic to, they've got doctrines or teachings that aren't biblical or aren't sound.

John Dehlin [00:25:26] True.

Shawn McCraney [00:25:26] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:25:28] So what if it's that our challenge as humans is just to have this change of heart. And if you're lds, you're associating with a little bit of Joseph Smith and a little bit of Brigham Young and a little bit of Book of Mormon and that's sort of, you know, the packaging that comes around that change of heart. If you're a Muslim, it's with Muhammad and Allah and whatever's going around there. If you're an atheist, maybe it's around nature and around your family truths that you learn just through the great works, whatever. But what if God's working through all of these churches and atheists and agnostics and all the other doctrines are just peripheral, they're kind of window dressing. But that change of heart is happening in a TBM Mormon and it's happening in an evangelical person, in a Catholic, in a Muslim, in a Hindu. And it is God's working everywhere and

Shawn McCraney [00:26:28] I have no problem with that. So I'm not backing off that kind of wide ecumenical view. I believe God works everywhere, in the atheist through nature. I believe all that he works through. But I can't discount where Jesus said, I am the way, the truth and the life, and no man comes to the Father but by me and So I have to somehow be able to understand how that happens in these people who don't know him. So I am not a universalist because I do believe in hell. I think Jesus talked enough about it that I believe it what hell is. Well, hell gives up her dead. I won't even go into that doctrine. But in any case, I believe that Jesus is the only way. But how he comes into people's lives, that's not up to me to decide. The problem is when Latter Day Saints come and say, well, Jesus is important, but there's more to it that alters Jesus being the only way. You know, that takes Jesus and you know. And so I think that there's a clear path that very few find that is free of obstacles. It's you standing on it and there's Jesus and that's it. And that is the true relationship. You bring religion in, they start putting these cones and obstacles. The Pentecostals bring in their Holy Roller stuff and the born again revivalists bring in all their stuff. And so those things can be obstacles. They can actually lead away from Christ. I believe in the case of Mormonism, most of it leads away from the. Our bigger obstacles to. To getting to him standing there. And I think people do, and I think they'll discount and they'll get to him. But I just feel like there could be a revival where somebody's going to say, okay, why don't we just admit Pearl a great price? Come on, why don't we just admit some of these things and let them go? It happened with the Worldwide Church of God and take. It can happen. And so that's kind of what I hope for.

John Dehlin [00:28:30] Didn't serve them well, by the way.

Shawn McCraney [00:28:31] No, it didn't. And that's why it's going to be tough for it to happen in Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:28:36] So

John Dehlin [00:28:40] it seems to me like what you're doing is you don't feel like you're in the position to know who has had that experience or not.

Shawn McCraney [00:28:49] Never.

John Dehlin [00:28:49] It may be that a lot more people than you think have had it. It may be that a lot less.

Shawn McCraney [00:28:53] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:28:54] You're sort of there to challenge them, to make sure that they have had it.

Shawn McCraney [00:28:59] Yeah, I'm so glad you said that, John, because my whole thing is to challenge and to get people to think and to just consider. And I do it through making them mad. I do it through. Sometimes I'm mocking, sometimes with humor. I do it in any way possible to get them to think and just look and consider. Have they been born again? It was an imperative to Jesus. It wasn't. I hope you do. You must. And so I think it's so important that that heart gets changed. And so everything I do is to try to get people to consider that,

John Dehlin [00:29:36] you know, how would a member of the LDS Church know if they were born again? Like, what if there's someone listening going, I'm not sure. I think I've been born again. I love Jesus. I accept him as my savior, but I don't know if I've met the bar. How do I know?

Shawn McCraney [00:29:50] In the Book of First John, we got to go to the Bible. It says you can know. And that's the ginosko of the Bible. And that means you really can. It's the only time we, we hear about really knowing. And what it says is, you know, that you're, that you're saved. And to some Latter Day Saints, out of a, out of a space of humility, I understand, say, well, that's really arrogant to say that because they're viewing it from their righteousness and works. But to a Christian, you can have the epistemological certainty that that truth has saved you. And it transcends all religious barriers. I've met messianic Jews. I've met people who came to know Jesus with no sinner's prayer, walking along a road and changed. I've met many of them because of the name of our ministry, Born Again. And so people call us and they write us about this. So, you know, and I was going to. And it's just like a Latter Day Saint saying, we know. But what you know is not that an institution is true or that a man is a prophet. You know, you have been saved by the blood of Jesus Christ and you trust in that. And that scripture says people can know. And, and so that's my best explanation of it. You can. And this is the relief that comes when the people who come out of Mormonism have been under burden and they call or they write and they say, I cannot believe how free I am and how Jesus. And they become a Jesus freak. You know, that Jesus has saved me. And they're rejoicing this way. And it's, it's, it's a, it's an outward expression that is universal among anybody who's had it, regardless of their past or present position in religion. And it comes by that acquiescence and admitting yourself a sinner and needing help.

John Dehlin [00:31:47] Right.

John Dehlin [00:31:49] And you'll still have bad days.

John Dehlin [00:31:51] Right.

John Dehlin [00:31:51] Can someone who's been saved get depressed and be manic depressive can they?

Shawn McCraney [00:31:56] You know, such a good question. It is a great question, because within Mormonism, I believe the system is set up for happiness. Happiness is circumstantial. If you love money and I give you a million, you're going to be happy. I take it away, you're not. And so their experience in life is very happy. And so you can't discount that Jesus gave the opposite scenario of people who come to him. They say, you're going to be persecuted. They say you're going to be tried. I find myself in more deep depression having become a Christian than I ever had as a Latter Day Saint or a wild man. Because in him, you are an alien in this world and his spirit lives with you. And you don't have the ties to the things of the world. And so you become disaffected from the humanity. Hollywood takes on a different meaning. Movies, music, everything loses that value that was once so great to have. You know, I still like those things, but I don't live for them anymore. And that might be maturity, but it's maturity too, in Christ. So that's how I would explain it. Is that you. That's the best I could probably explain it.

John Dehlin [00:33:07] You'll still have down days, always.

Shawn McCraney [00:33:08] You'll probably have more. And, you know, and that's why the Jews didn't want Jesus to say, hey, we live under the law. We do something right, we're blessed, we do something wrong, we're cursed. You're saying, believe in you and we're going to be tried and suffer. Why would we do that? And it's true, you know.

John Dehlin [00:33:25] So one more time, what could an LDS Church member do to set themselves on the path of becoming born again? From your perspective, Go to the Lord

Shawn McCraney [00:33:36] in the quiet of your room or your car, and you just. You ask him to take over your life, to open your eyes, give you a new heart. And you're going to wait and trust him and then wait and start off every day and say, I'm in your hands. You show me and no one else. You show me. And you see what he does. That is the challenge. And I believe he comes through on anyone who sincerely wants it.

John Dehlin [00:34:01] That's McCraney's promise. That's McCraney's Promise instead of Moroni's promise.

Shawn McCraney [00:34:06] Yeah, thanks.

John Dehlin [00:34:08] Let's do a little theology. One of the biggest critiques against a belief in God is that he's a bastard. I don't mean that in a blasphemous way, but you look at like, you know, the Theodicy, the problem of evil. All powerful God loving, all loving God who's righteous and good. Holocaust happen, children get raped and killed. Wars, horrible, terrible, nasty things. Not just that. Think about how confusing it is for the average person in the world. I mean, forget Africa and all the, you know, all the starvation and poverty there and the suffering, people getting limbs chopped off, you know, Bosnia, just everywhere. But just think about someone, a middle class person in the U.S. maybe they're LDS. Which church do I join? There's so many different options. The Bible is, you know, it may be clear for you, but you got to go to Bible school. For a lot of people the Bible is just confusing. The Old Testament shows this. God who's vindictive and petty and malicious, who orders genocide. Some youth make fun of a prophet and God orders a bear to go, you know, slice up the kids and kill them. You know, for many Jews, God died in the 1940s. You talk about God with this gleam in your eye, like he's this wonderful, powerful, beautiful, loving person. But many people just can't get themselves to even go there anymore. They feel betrayed by God. They see no proof for his existence and they just see no compelling reason.

Shawn McCraney [00:36:11] I would first say that the condition of this world, from the genocides and all the pogroms and everything you described, are not his. They are not his doing. They are our doing.

John Dehlin [00:36:24] So you're saying he's not all powerful?

Shawn McCraney [00:36:26] I'm saying that he does not do

John Dehlin [00:36:29] evil, but he allows it to happen. He can't prevent it.

Shawn McCraney [00:36:33] He can, he can prevent it. But if he was really a bastard, he would be a despot and he would force everybody to be good. But he loves freedom. So he gave choice and men choose wrongly.

John Dehlin [00:36:47] Why couldn't he have created a better system?

Shawn McCraney [00:36:49] Well, I think it falls hand in hand with that love for freedom. I mean, he has to operate off some type of balance between love, justice, freedom, creation.

John Dehlin [00:37:02] Did we exist before he created us? Like the LDS doctrine is, we have spirits from before, even intelligences before that. So I mean, there's a reason. I mean there's some, there's an appeal to that doctrine.

Shawn McCraney [00:37:14] Yeah, there is.

John Dehlin [00:37:14] It kind of gets you out of this little struggle that I'm putting you in. Yeah, because if we have existed forever, then we bring that will with us. And it's not his fault, he didn't create us.

Shawn McCraney [00:37:24] Right.

John Dehlin [00:37:25] You're saying he created us and he created this world and he created this plan. I'm telling you, an all powerful, all loving God could have Created a better system.

Shawn McCraney [00:37:35] That's both of you, John.

John Dehlin [00:37:38] I'm speaking on behalf of my listeners. I don't know anything, okay?

Shawn McCraney [00:37:43] I believe he created. I believe God creates and he loves and He's a creator. And I believe freedom is everything and he does not. That's why he put a tree in that garden. He said, you can have open fellowship with me, Adam, but if you don't want to choose to not do that, you take that free, you take that tree, and you cannot do that. And it brought in a horrible situation called sin and death, and it brought in disease, and it brought in children dying of disease and all that. These things are not of God. They never have been.

John Dehlin [00:38:13] But why couldn't he have made it so those things would have never even happened?

Shawn McCraney [00:38:16] Because then what would he have? He would have Adam and Eve loving him and responding to him with no choice. And we would live in this Edenic state. That's just a great thing without choice. That's not free. That's a despot. That's a guy who makes clay figures to worship Him. That's not what this God is about. He's about love and living. And for every person who says, you gave me a bad deal down here, there's another person who received just as bad of a deal, who says, I praise you. And there will be the difference. I know the world is a terrible, horrible place, but I don't assign the blame to him. I assign the blame to us. Now, here's the problem. We live in a very humanistic world and everything. We are the center of the universe. And so we stop seeing who he is. And so we view everything from our perspective, the suffering and the disease, and it is horrible. But we don't understand his being. We think of him anthropomorphically. We think of him as a man, not so. He's a consuming fire. And so when we look around at the suffering, we get mad at this God, but we don't know his holiness. We don't understand his love. And where we saw that love manifested was when he said, look it, this whole creation has fallen into a slump and it's dead. I'm going to come down myself and I'm going to die for it. So to me, that shows a loving God who gave himself to suffer and die for all these things. And then he says, look, it does come to me. It's really easy, and I'll give you this peace. Throughout this turmoil, I was in a place of turmoil. I was in a place where I thought got I was a nihilist. I didn't believe in him. You know, why would you give me these passions that I don't know how to control or anything else? Well, then I saw that he gives you a solution, but you have to break to get to that solution. And somewhere, John, in the midst of justice, freedom, mercy, love comes this world we have. And that's the best I can do.

Satan, Science, Grace Versus Works, and Hell

John Dehlin [00:40:25] Do you believe in a literal Satan and followers of Satan that are like tempting, trying to like, oh, like, does evil come from Satan? Is Satan's God creation?

Shawn McCraney [00:40:36] I think evil? Well, biblically, Satan was an angel and he fell because he saw he was beautiful and he wanted to become like God and he was cast out. That's what hell was created for. Biblically, was Satan and his angels thrown down here. And I believe that Satan does exist. Yes, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:40:56] As a spirit, as a force.

Shawn McCraney [00:40:57] Yeah, he's a spirit. He's a fallen angel. And angels are invisible. And he's a spiritual force. Yeah, I don't believe he was a brother of Jesus. I believe Jesus existed eternally and I believe he is God. I don't believe the brother thing, but he was a created being. The heavenly economy has angels created. Just like we have foxes and rabbits and bears and humans here. There's a heavenly creation too. And angels were them.

John Dehlin [00:41:21] So angels don't become men or exalted man.

Shawn McCraney [00:41:23] Total LDS thing. Total LDS thing.

John Dehlin [00:41:27] Okay. And Satan does have followers or doesn't

Shawn McCraney [00:41:34] he has other angels? Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:41:37] And there. Are they the reason why we sin? Are they a contributor to our sin?

Shawn McCraney [00:41:41] They can contribute, I suppose. I suppose our fallen state does it. Temptations can do it. Satan can cause us. We can choose ourselves to be evil. I don't know the answer to that.

John Dehlin [00:41:51] And God doesn't want to keep them from tempting us, just use his power to cast them out and get rid of them.

Shawn McCraney [00:41:57] Well, remember the fall was brought in through man and Satan received the title deed to this world. He got Eve to eat of the fruit and give up the paradise. So Satan gets to rule. So God, God somehow in that justice and in the way the cards are dealt, Satan got a good hand for a couple thousand years, but. And he was able to get them to do something when God gave them the freedom to not. So he gets to rule and reign. Well, Jesus came and he got the title deed back. When Satan came to Jesus and said, hey, I'll give you all these things if you worship me. Jesus didn't say, you don't have the right to do that. He just he just, he just quoted scripture, but he never countered Satan's claims. Satan has, and Satan continues to have the claim on this world, you know, but the answer is in Jesus, who came and overcame what Satan brought.

John Dehlin [00:42:48] Is it, would it be fair to say that you can understand the types of questions I'm asking about the fairness of it all and about God's power, but that maybe you just have a faith in God, that it's all fair?

Shawn McCraney [00:43:03] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:43:04] So you're kind of just, you're putting faith in that deal, acknowledging that it seems like some get a raw deal and that it doesn't seem all quite right to balance the all powerful, all living God with all the evil. And you're just saying I just have to trust God, that I'm absolutely saying

Shawn McCraney [00:43:19] that and I inject everything.

John Dehlin [00:43:21] You don't think it all makes sense?

Shawn McCraney [00:43:23] No, no. I think there's a general model that helps me in my faith and maybe I have sold out in parts of my faith in order to have that work. But I do believe, generally speaking, that those principles hold true. I may be proven wrong.

John Dehlin [00:43:41] What do you think about atheists like Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins and all those guys? Have you studied their works at all?

Shawn McCraney [00:43:48] Yeah, those guys.

John Dehlin [00:43:52] Do you ever sympathize with their arguments? Do you ever. The thing God say, protect me from your followers, do you, do you have sympathy for that phrase?

Shawn McCraney [00:43:59] Sure, absolutely. You know, religion, organized religion has done a church history. Christian church history is a horrible, ugly mess. You know, we cannot look to men's institutions as evidence of God. We're just going to find evidence of Satan.

John Dehlin [00:44:15] You know, this is partly why you're not big on churches at all.

Shawn McCraney [00:44:17] Right? Right.

John Dehlin [00:44:18] Christians included.

Shawn McCraney [00:44:19] Right. I am big on gathering together, but it's got to be really based not on the money and the buildings. And you know, I'm foregathering together, the Bible teaches that, but I'm not big on religion.

John Dehlin [00:44:29] Corporations.

Shawn McCraney [00:44:29] Yes, but I understand where those atheists come from. I was one of them. This morning I was reading the atheist Bible. I read through it and understand much of their arguments and they make a lot of sense. But to me, you know, just give you a simple example, we can go out to a garden and we can get a watermelon and we can get a cucumber and we can get a chicken and we can get seasons and herbs and the foods around this world that in and of itself, the combinations, the flavors, the nutrients, all of that in and of itself makes me think Dawkins is an idiot. How could you believe that just in the realm of food, drink wine, milk, orange juice, fruits, vegetables, animals, fish, that there is not a creator? So I find those men to be stupid, really, truly stupid. And I think my belief in the Bible says they know, and it says they all know, but there's something in them. It might be pride, it might be anger, it might be pain, it might be remorse, but there's something in them that says, screw you, God. And I think that that's what they thrive on and live by. Instead of looking at a baby being born and evidence in the cell of God, they look for all the mockery. You know? Now, I have a heart for people who come out of Mormonism who are atheist and agnostic, a great heart, because they belong to the scorched earth of Mormonism, where it's all us or nothing. And then they walk around dead. And I was part of that. And I understand them. So Dawkins, I don't have the respect. I have as much respect for him as I do the 12, but for the other guys, I have a heart for.

John Dehlin [00:46:17] I don't totally want to challenge you on any of that. I do have a lot of listeners who are atheists or agnostics. And you made a comment at the very beginning of the show about how. What would an atheist. What reason would an atheist have to be moral? My experience is that so many of the atheists and agnostics that I know are deeply moral, kind, sincere, loving people who even recognize all the beauty in everything you've said. I mean, they feel like an evolved existence has the same type of beauty and marvel that you describe. They just think it happened through whatever science, scientific, natural means. But, you know, I don't feel like it's constructive for me to argue that about that. But I think my. My listeners would be angry or my watchers would be angry if I didn't at least. Are you okay with that?

Shawn McCraney [00:47:18] I am fine. And I agree with you. I think there are many. What I meant by what would motivate them to be moral is by what standard? And they can say their own morality, and then we get into complete relativism. And that means David Koresh's morality is as good as theirs. So I just wonder what standard they base their morality on. And that's all.

John Dehlin [00:47:44] I mean, let's talk about science. How do you feel about science?

Shawn McCraney [00:47:49] That's great stuff.

John Dehlin [00:47:50] You like science?

Shawn McCraney [00:47:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:51] You're cool with it? Sure. So, age of the earth?

Shawn McCraney [00:47:56] No idea.

John Dehlin [00:47:57] Billions?

Shawn McCraney [00:47:58] Could be.

John Dehlin [00:47:59] Not. Not seven days or seven days, six Day creation could be not a hill to die in. Don't care, don't care about that. Literal Adam and Eve corporeal existing. Sure, pre Adam and Eve cavemen.

Shawn McCraney [00:48:17] Adam and Eve were the cavemen. We picture them as this long blonde haired beautiful stud guy and his wife walking around. I think they probably look like cavemen

John Dehlin [00:48:25] but I mean you'll find human like beings in the fossil record 10, 50, 70, 80,000 years ago. I mean before Adam and Eve could have, you know, started. So how do you bridge evolution? Evolution, yes or no? No, no. Evolution.

Shawn McCraney [00:48:45] I believe in evolution but I believe in micro evolution, not macroevolution. I think I have those terms right. I believe that God could have used evolution. I believe there's evolution in our lives. I see it. So I don't discount that. I just don't believe that we came from a pond of scum that was not created, struck by lightning that was not created to create a little amoeba that grew into a man. I just don't believe that.

John Dehlin [00:49:11] So God is a prime creator and Darwin said maybe, right? Maybe use evolution to advance the world. Maybe does with animals.

Shawn McCraney [00:49:19] No, no problem. Animals know. I believe man is the only tripartite being created. Adam and Eve animals are bipartite. They don't have a spirit, they have a soul, they have a body, but they don't have a spirit. So I think we were created in God's image. I hold to that model. I believe in Adam and Eve. How the specifics fall in place. I, I don't die on it. I'm not smart enough. I can't fathom what scientists say and I can't fathom what theologians say in response.

John Dehlin [00:49:45] So maybe those prehistoric man like things were non humans could have been maybe or you know, the whole God evolved to this point where then he sent the spirits or whatever could have been.

Shawn McCraney [00:49:58] I'm fine with any of it because you know, the Bible gives us the first, I don't know how many hundred years in like the first 31 verses. It's not an exhaustive concordance on how things happen.

John Dehlin [00:50:10] What about a global flood? Literal global flood. Water.

Shawn McCraney [00:50:15] Don't think it's really necessary to believe it. No, I think there's evidence. Haley's Bible Commentary for those Christians who are going to freak out at me saying that and it's a very well respected Bible Commentary says no it was local, it was geographic, so couldn't tell you. I know many people stand and die on those things. I don't. Jesus is the only thing I stand and die on John.

John Dehlin [00:50:38] Okay, I want to come back a bit to your discussion about saved by grace versus works. Yeah, some people. Well, first of all, I was struck by the clearness of the language in James. I'm just going to read it. What doth a prophet, my brethren? Though a man say he hath faith and have not works, can faith save him even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead. Being alone, seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified and. And not by faith only. For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. I almost feel like it's a red herring. I think that if you've been born again, you're going to have good works. But you look at if you've been saved, but then you murder people and you cheat on your wife and you die a horrible, wretched person. It's hard for me to say that that person in God's eyes is going to be equivalent to someone who was born again and lived as righteous and as good a life as they ever could have.

Shawn McCraney [00:52:00] They wouldn't be equivalent.

John Dehlin [00:52:02] So, like Jerry Faldwell, was he not saved?

Shawn McCraney [00:52:05] Don't know.

John Dehlin [00:52:06] Or Jim Baker? Jim and Tammy Baker?

Shawn McCraney [00:52:08] Don't know. We know they sin.

John Dehlin [00:52:11] Yeah, we all do.

Shawn McCraney [00:52:12] Yeah. So saved or not, you're still going to have sin. Theirs was more public, bigger, whatever. But remember, there is an element of rewards. And the Christian teaching on rewards is this. All your works that you do as a Christian are going to be placed on an altar and they're going to be tried by fire. And those that remain, that don't burn like hay, wood and stubble, they're going to be the works you did out of the love of your heart. So the works that you do, if they're generated out of the love, those are going to be the rewards that you're based on. So when you say the murderer who dies, who was a born again Christian, I mean the born again Christian becomes a murderer versus the born again Christian who does many wonderful things. The rewards are going to be far greater. In his house are many mansions. So I think there's going to be another side of the tracks in heaven, probably. And so it does matter how you live. And it is indicative of your faith by how you work. It is solely indicative. But remember, James is talking about faith there. He's not talking about works. It's faith. Faith without works. Faith without works. So we know that we're talking about faith, and we're talking about what comes when you have faith. By the way, everything In James in 1 and 2 is talking about what we say as Christians. James 2, which you just quoted for me, is couched in a discussion about treating people preferentially based on their money. And James says, you see someone walk in with a nice ring and dress nicely and you treat them better. You don't have love for them and so you can't treat them preferentially based on their appearance. You got to love them all. I would suggest if you look at James contextually, Chapter one and two, you will find that you could translate that easily. Faith without love is dead. And those are the works we're called to do as Christians. To love. Faith without love. That is the work we are called to do. So the problem is religions, Mormons and others will say faith without works you got to go and do. And that's just not how it is. It's love. And the love produces the going and doing that is, I believe, contextual. I can argue it. We won't go to the time now, but I think that's how it would work.

John Dehlin [00:54:27] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. To comment on this episode or to provide feedback, please check us out@mormonstories.org if

John Dehlin [00:54:35] you want to help keep Mormon Stories

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John Dehlin [00:54:47] Bulletin and Ward newsletter. Just kidding about those last two.

John Dehlin [00:54:51] Also, this is a shout out to my tragically hip friends@studiocase.com in New York City. That includes Travis, Jeff, Enoch and Tony for designing my new Mormon Stories podcast logo. Please check these amazingly talented guys out@studiocase.com or email to thank them@infostudiocase.com and finally meet. Music on this episode was provided by Clayton and Sky Pixton. Check them out@claytonpixton.com or skypixton.com that's sky with an E S K Y E pixton.com thank you.

John Dehlin [00:57:21] Sa.

Part 3 of 3 · Ep. 128

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Sam, So literal hell.

Shawn McCraney [00:00:30] Remember, hell was a place, Sheol, and it's a place for Satan and his angels. And there's a prison there, and there's a paradise. Okay. When Jesus died, he bridged the gulf and everybody in paradise. The Old Testament prophets who lived by faith and believed and all the righteous, they went to heaven. Hell will give up her dead. This is what LDS do not understand. Hell gives up her dead, and they stand before God, before the Great White Throne. This is the Revelation. And they're judged by their works and then they are cast down. And there's different levels of eternal fire. There's a difference between Hell, Sheol. It's a holding place for those who did not go to heaven when they died. Hell gives up her dead.

John Dehlin [00:01:11] It's like a spiritual prison.

Shawn McCraney [00:01:12] It is. It's a spiritual prison. And they are there at the final judgment, the Great white throne, Revelation 22. They are all come before God and he opens up the books and he judges them by their works. Before that judgment ever happens, the believers in Christ have already gone. Okay, so this is what the LDS missionaries will say. Read Revelation. It says right here. And the books were open and other books, and we were judged by our works. Those are the people who were brought up and they are being judged who were not believers. So there's a difference. Then they will be put in their eternal place of torment and where the fire ascends. Whether that's a literal flame, whatever happens there, I don't know. But I do know that Revelation says those who are with God won't remember them. We don't know we'll never remember them again. So there's no misery there in heaven for that group. I think they're going to have to choose hell. Every knee will bow, every tongue will confess. I think they're going to have to choose it willfully to go there.

John Dehlin [00:02:11] Are you thinking few are going to go? Is that kind of how you feel?

Shawn McCraney [00:02:14] I don't know. I think maybe in the spectrum of humanity, no, maybe a lot. Jesus is straight as the gate narrows the way. Few be there that find it. So, you know, percentage wise, probably a few would find the straight gate. But I do believe in a benevolent, loving God. And all the wrath for our sin was taken out on his Son and he is appeased. And so I do believe many, many will go to be with him.

John Dehlin [00:02:40] That might surprise us, but eternal damnation for not having the right moment of belief.

Shawn McCraney [00:02:50] I don't believe that. Again, not having the right moment. No. I believe people acquiesce based on what they've been given. I don't believe there's eternal torment for those who haven't been given the chance to know Jesus name or to have a Bible. But I think there's a.

John Dehlin [00:03:09] Will they be given a chance?

Shawn McCraney [00:03:11] No, because God is. God is in control and his word is going out and people hear. And Jesus said, you know, pray that they'll have eyes to see and ears to hear. That's the whole thing. And those who will, will. Those who won't will.

John Dehlin [00:03:24] Not even like an aborigine in Brazil in the second century.

Shawn McCraney [00:03:30] He's relating to what he's got and he is saved by the grace of God. Okay, just like babies. Babies don't go to hell. They're saved by the grace and the shed blood of God. They can't choose. Children, they can't choose.

John Dehlin [00:03:42] So babies just get a free ride. Who died before some ages.

Guest [00:03:45] Yeah.

Shawn McCraney [00:03:46] What kind of God would send them to hell?

John Dehlin [00:03:48] But then what about somebody who just lives their life and doesn't really have a born again moment, but isn't really horrible and they die?

Shawn McCraney [00:03:59] All I'm going to say is Jesus is the way. How God handles that. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:04:03] This is again where you're sort of putting your faith and just saying God will make it just.

Shawn McCraney [00:04:06] And I say Jesus. I don't back off on Jesus being the way, but I don't know how that applies. Later, no teaching and the other later here before what it entails. I know the thief on the cross didn't say a sinner's prayer. I know the thief on the cross didn't say, jesus be my king. His profession was really simple, you know, but there are people who won't profess it, you know, they won't do it. And I think those are the ones who say, I, I spit on this shed blood, you know, and they don't know wrath because he poured his wrath on his son. They're going to sense wrath because they spit on that. They willfully spit. And you know, we say, well, what loving God would do that? I don't think he wants to do it. I think he's calling constantly. But we have our freedom and we can choose.

Homosexuality, Heaven, and LDS Reform Possibilities

John Dehlin [00:04:54] So you're with C.S. lewis, that all who are in hell choose it?

Shawn McCraney [00:04:57] Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:04:59] It's not God keeping them out. It's them choosing not to come to God.

Shawn McCraney [00:05:03] They won't want to. And I think you're talking about people with the attitudes of, I mean, Satan was in God's presence And rebelled. So it's not so big of an idea that men and women would. Dawkins, I think, in my opinion, is that personality type. I won't say him himself that personality type.

John Dehlin [00:05:21] So I had the question of, like, are Lutherans in or out? Are Catholics in or out? You're not. You're just not about that.

Shawn McCraney [00:05:26] Not at all.

Guest [00:05:27] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:05:27] So I won't go there. Homosexuality.

Shawn McCraney [00:05:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:35] Choice, Not a choice.

Shawn McCraney [00:05:39] I think that some homosexuals choose it. I think some homosexuals are born that way, and I have an answer for them. They need to be born again. And I believe that homosexuality is a sin.

John Dehlin [00:05:53] And I believe that not the feeling, but the. The act of sexual relations.

Shawn McCraney [00:05:59] Yeah, yeah. Active sex.

John Dehlin [00:06:00] Being gay is not a sin.

Shawn McCraney [00:06:01] No.

John Dehlin [00:06:01] In your eyes.

Shawn McCraney [00:06:02] No. No.

John Dehlin [00:06:03] But if you have intercourse.

Shawn McCraney [00:06:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:06] Or sexual relations, that's just like comparable to heterosexual.

Shawn McCraney [00:06:10] Sure. Having intercuity or whatever. And. But I also think homosexuals lie, and I think they have to deal with those sins.

John Dehlin [00:06:18] What do you mean?

Shawn McCraney [00:06:18] Well, I think homosexuals lie like heterosexuals do. I mean, we focus on their sexuality and that the sin of homosexuality. But I think there's homosexuals who are violent, and I think there's homosexuals who will lie just like there's heterosexuals who are. Why do we focus on their sexuality? I think the Christian community has made a big mistake in focusing all of our animus against the homosexual community because they're homosexuals. You know, I'm a heterosexual male who likes women. You know, what do you want? That's my sin. But I still go to church. The problem is the homosexuals say, I want to make my sin. Okay. I want to say it's not a sin, but it is. But just get your gay self into church. Let Jesus handle that. So you get born again as a gay and you die as a gay. Jesus has handled it. But no, they have to say, you know, no, you have to accept my homosexuality is okay. Why? The scripture's complete. Adam and Eve, you know, I mean, we have to go by some manual or standard. I don't hate them. I love them equally. We are all sinners. I don't hold their sin any differently than anyone else, but they should be going to church. I have a gay couple who live in Spain, two men.

John Dehlin [00:07:28] What do you mean you have them? You mean they come to your.

Shawn McCraney [00:07:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:30] What do you mean?

Shawn McCraney [00:07:31] They've come to the show. They flown from Spain. They're fans, they support us and they love it. And they have every right to be in a Christian church, as I do. Or anybody else, because their gays are relevant. And so the Christian community has made a big mistake in and trying to go after their sexuality. You know, their problems are just like mine.

John Dehlin [00:07:52] So can a gay person become born again?

Shawn McCraney [00:07:55] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:07:55] But then be married to a gay partner and live their life in celibacy to each other, commitment to each other? Sure. And be gay for the rest of their life if they were born again?

Shawn McCraney [00:08:05] You can die gay. Yeah, you can die not just gay,

John Dehlin [00:08:08] but like living, being intimate with other people, other men.

Shawn McCraney [00:08:12] You know, here's the problem with that, with the thinking. I know you don't think this, but the problem is we have this idea is when you're born again, you become perfect. You are perfect, but it's through his blood. So a gay man or woman who become born again, they are perfect through his blood, not through themselves. So if they continue to struggle with homosexuality, which I'm going to always say is a sin that's covered by the blood of Christ, he then lives in them and he works through them. We have this idea in the Christian community that because they're gay, they could never be born again. Just like they say, you're Mormon. You could never be born again. It's insane. A gay man and woman has the same right to that Holy Spirit coming and changing their heart. And then we let God work with them on their sexuality. All right, I could be an alcoholic. And if I'm born again in a bar and I've met them and they can't stop drinking, but they are the most. They love the Lord and they. They want to stop, but their flesh won't let them. I would never say they're not going to heaven because they died an alcoholic. They love the Lord. It's their faith. That's the difference. So a homosexual should have and embrace that same faith.

John Dehlin [00:09:22] What are we going to do in heaven for eternity?

Shawn McCraney [00:09:24] Play harps on clouds? Do you have any idea?

John Dehlin [00:09:28] It sounds boring, right?

Shawn McCraney [00:09:29] We don't know. All I can tell you is this. You know, Jesus gives some really vague statements. Eye has not seen or ear heard. The glories that wait them that believe. All right? So I trust in that completely. And we know we're going to get a new model of body. And I don't know what that's going to be like. So that might play into what we're going to do. Maybe we'll go on and we'll create things like Joseph imagined.

John Dehlin [00:09:53] You're open to that?

Shawn McCraney [00:09:54] Oh, sure. I have no idea. You know. You know, I view heaven as a very unique place. Think about this. The Garden of Eden had it continued on, and Adam and Eve done it and they procreate it, and there's a whole community and we're living in the Garden of Eden now. That's kind of Joseph Smith's idea of celestial marriage. So I am not dogmatic on stuff. I just know that Mormonism and their doctrines on many of the core issues are so far askew. I'm going to fight it.

John Dehlin [00:10:23] So have you ever found yourself thinking back about Joseph, kind of for a moment separating how he may or may not have impacted people coming to Christ in your mind, but just like felt a brotherhood or a kinship with him, even an appreciation and a beauty talk about that.

Shawn McCraney [00:10:41] Well, what was beautiful about me, the audience is going to really now think I've lost it. But I've always believed this. I have a kindred spirit with Joseph Smith, and I understand that man. I would love him as a great friend. I'm sure he was charismatic. I'm sure he was. And I'm sure he had a wonderful heart for things. I know he loved his family and I know he loved women, and I know he loved the pomp and power. And he cracks me up. I remember hearing the story about him giving out parcels of land, and someone comes up and says, joseph, I don't like that parcel you gave me. And he says, you know, that's where it was in Missouri. That's where Cain slew Abel. And the guy said, I want it. Then, Joseph, he was just amazing. He could whip it up anywhere and bring it forward and make you believe it. I think he started off with good intentions. I think that he got lost somewhere along the way. You know what's a really interesting point in terms of soteriology is you could say that Joseph Smith had the born again experience. And if born againers believe that you're saved by grace and it doesn't matter what you do thereafter, they. They would have to question where Joseph Smith is, because if he was saved, he was saved.

John Dehlin [00:12:03] You're open to the fact that Joseph Smith could be saved?

Shawn McCraney [00:12:05] I'm open to anything like that. But I also believe Joseph, he let it run amok, and I believe he did a lot of damage in the end. I think when he told people that the Bible can't be trusted, and now he's going to supply you with a new book, which I do not believe in that book at all, based off what I believe are facts. I think he started doing things that were wrong, but so did Tammy Faye Baker, and so did. So did Swaggart, and so did most religious leaders.

John Dehlin [00:12:34] You know, are you open to the fact that throughout the whole experience his heart was trying to be in the right place?

Shawn McCraney [00:12:41] I think I perceive it that initially in the beginning, he was trying to do well. And I just get that through his interaction with Emma Hale's dad and just different things. But I just feel like when he saw that he could convince people of some things, it just went. And I think he went right with it to the end of Nauvoo and riding the horses and wearing the uniforms and being ordained king of the world. I just have to start laughing. And had I. I could even see, you know, in my chicaneries and life, I could see myself conning people in ways like that too. So I understand him as a man.

John Dehlin [00:13:19] Given the fact that the Book of Mormon, like a fifth of it is direct quoted from the Bible. Have you ever read the Book of Mormon from just, you know, Grant Palmer's premise is that he's okay with the Book of Mormon because he feels like it brings people to Christ.

Shawn McCraney [00:13:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:33] Have you ever just read the text of the Book of Mormon just to see what type of Christ vibe it gives off?

Shawn McCraney [00:13:38] It gives a good one.

John Dehlin [00:13:39] So you're actually okay with the text of the Book of Mormon and the Christian messages?

Shawn McCraney [00:13:44] Most of it, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:45] Really?

Shawn McCraney [00:13:45] I don't like to say by grace after all that we can do. There's a few lines in there I

John Dehlin [00:13:49] don't know from the Bible somewhere.

Shawn McCraney [00:13:51] No. Okay. So there's a few twists in there, but generally, yeah, I would agree with Grant. Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:13:57] Do you feel like the Book of Mormon can bring someone to Christ? Can the Book of Mormon be the impetus for a born again experience?

Shawn McCraney [00:14:03] Absolutely. Yeah. But the problem with the Book of Mormon is this. It's a fraud. Okay. And then what it is, it's a hook. Because if you believe the Book of Mormon, then you're going to go on and you're going to believe the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price and then temple rites and rituals. And so it's a hook. So that's my problem with the Book of Mormon. I don't think that it necessarily teaches a bad doctrine. I just think that it is used by the church and it hooks people into things that I do believe are bad.

John Dehlin [00:14:33] Are you familiar with the work of Robert Millet and Stephen Robinson at all?

Shawn McCraney [00:14:38] I am

John Dehlin [00:14:40] a writer, wrote in, a listener wrote in and asked, what do you think about their work?

Shawn McCraney [00:14:45] I like.

John Dehlin [00:14:45] Well, first tell Our listeners what their work is.

Shawn McCraney [00:14:47] From your perspective, Robinson's. Is that how wide the divide?

Guest [00:14:51] Probably.

John Dehlin [00:14:53] And believing Christ?

Shawn McCraney [00:14:54] No, that's that believing Christ is Grant Palmer's, I think.

John Dehlin [00:14:59] Okay.

Shawn McCraney [00:15:00] Anyway, I really think that Robinson has some great points in what he says, and I like his writings. I think Bob Millet is a duplicitous man. And I think I've heard him speak in Christian churches. And I think he's a showman, as much of a showman as I am. And I think that he does not speak the truth,

John Dehlin [00:15:23] Dick. Plus, give me an example of what he'll say to one guy.

Shawn McCraney [00:15:25] I think he speaks from both sides of his mouth. He does not reveal what Mormonism is so as to appear that he is a Christian. And maybe Bob is, but he makes Mormonism appear like it is right nestled up with evangelical Christianity. And I think that when he is off camera or off scene, he is through and through. There's videos of him speaking to people about Christianity. He's gone to people's homes, I know, who are coming out of Mormonism and specifically went and bashed against the Christian religion they were trying to do. So he has this dog and pony show with Greg Johnson, and they go to Christian churches and they are friends, so they get along. And Bob paints this picture that is not Mormonism. And his response is when people say it's not Mormonism, I say, well, it's what I believe, but it really isn't. And so I think he's duplicitous. And I go on the record as saying, that's my opinion, but that's what I believe of Bob Millet.

John Dehlin [00:16:32] But aren't they kind of trying to inch the church more in a direction of it's not works and the grace. I mean, I've heard him interviewed and he does a lot of grace talk.

Shawn McCraney [00:16:40] Yeah, well, his book is called Grace Works and it's, you know, it's an interesting title, and I think it kind of really sets what it is. And people who are saved by grace, they do someone who really does. But I just believe Bob muddies the waters. And I know he's been taking the task for doing that, but he and I were going to have a debate, but it never came through because he thought I was too antagonistic.

John Dehlin [00:17:11] Are you friends with Grant Palmer?

Shawn McCraney [00:17:12] Yeah, I love Grant Palmer. He's a great man.

John Dehlin [00:17:19] All right, this is a question I didn't let you see beforehand.

Shawn McCraney [00:17:24] Oh, good.

John Dehlin [00:17:25] It's not a zinger. Oh, damn. Having our own little Nixon frost moment here. No. So let's just pretend that a member of the First Presidency and a member of the Quorum of the Twelve listens to this, and in their heart they know that things could be better. And they like what you're saying, and they think your message is about how works and perfectionism can burn down the member, that it really is about Jesus and giving it to him and how freeing that can be. And they, you know, they're open. Their hearts and their minds are open to Sean McCraney to maybe give them some advice. Here are the rules of the advice. The advice you give must strengthen the church or at least keep it as strong as it is now. And by strong, I mean butts in seats and tithing. But if you can give them advice that basically helps them lead more of their church members to have a born again experience, to accept Christ, if you can give them advice that will lead more people to that end without weakening the church, without weakening the institution, without driving members away or making people feel like it was a house of cards that fell down, what advice would you give the church leaders to right the ship to the extent that it could?

Shawn McCraney [00:19:05] Can't do it.

John Dehlin [00:19:06] What do you mean?

Shawn McCraney [00:19:07] They use totalistic methodologies to keep the church strong. The gospel of salvation by grace, which is what being born again is founded on, it will diminish the church if they said, listen, everybody, we're going to put aside this mandatory work ethic and we're going to just come to the knowledge this is the only thing we're going to say is you're saved by the. By believing on the blood of Jesus Christ. That is it. We're not changing anything else. You're not going to have people serving like they do. You're not going to have people paying the tithing like they do, and you're going to have attrition. And so you can't have those two works based on theology. Has churches grow. It strengthens them. The body of Christ has always been feeble. It's not a worldwide movement. It's never going to be a powerhouse in this fallen world. So it's counterintuitive to try to give advice, to say it can't weaken the numbers or the money, but this will help the members.

John Dehlin [00:20:19] Can't do it.

Shawn McCraney [00:20:19] Can't do it.

John Dehlin [00:20:20] All right. Change the terms.

Shawn McCraney [00:20:23] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:20:25] Put aside the money. Put aside activity rates. Let's just say someday the LDS Church looks at itself like the reorganized LDS Church did back in the 60s and 70s, and they say the evidence against the truth claims are Overwhelming. We are not what we claim to be. But they don't announce this. They say to themselves, we've got 4 or 5 million people willing to follow what we say and do. We've got all these assets and resources, all this land, all this money, all this power. We don't want to just like fold up shop and have everyone just be thrown into chaos. We want to evolve in whatever way we have to that's ethical and moral and Christ centered. And we want to give the church and ourselves over to Christ. Is there a way for them to do that and to still try and be an existing entity that is trying to do good?

Shawn McCraney [00:21:36] Yeah, I would say my advice would be retain all your great organizational structure.

John Dehlin [00:21:42] That sounds familiar. Sounds like Gordon McGinkley. Bring all you have and let's see if we can add something to it.

Shawn McCraney [00:21:48] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:48] Okay. So

Shawn McCraney [00:21:51] in honor of Gordon, retain all the good that you have. And I mean that in the terms of lifestyle. Keep your basketball courts open for the kids, keep your youth programs going. But you have to remove any teaching that says you have to do this. In addition to believe on the blood of Jesus Christ, you will free your members and you will release them from a life of burden. Make those temples that you've got, meditation houses, places for the poor or whatever you want, but remove that Masonic tie where they need to do those things that adds to faith in Christ. Use your assets wisely. Be a denomination that is known as being conservative and strict and rigid. Who cares? And you'll, you'll continue to have what people want from the church, but free those people from believing that they are going to earn their salvation through any way but by faith in Christ. That's what I would say.

John Dehlin [00:22:57] What are the most. I think you've covered this, but what are the most damaging things? Let's just say that the church wasn't going to do A or B, but let's just say they were going to say. Okay, Sean, most damaging things. We're open to listening. What are some of the most damaging things that you would make a plea for them to stop doing ways that it's most harmful or damaging to people's lives?

Shawn McCraney [00:23:26] I am so liberal in my views of religion that I think they could even keep the temple ceremonies, the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenant. Well, maybe not. Some of the, Maybe not. Doctrine and Covenants are pro great practice because they teach counter. The most damaging thing is that the blood of Jesus and faith in them is not enough. If they altered that alone, they could keep all their unique and Strange and out there practices and their culture or whatever. But that is the core to free people religiously. So even if people were doing that, it would be tough to go and do an endowment ceremony because you realize that the things you do in there are what help you get into heaven. So they're kind of counter. But I mean, if people could just hear that from their pulpit at general conference. We want you to hear this clearly. When you believe on Jesus, son of the living God and his shed blood, and you ask and you're born again, that is imperative do it. You know, I would probably stop the show. You know, stop the show, sure, I'd stop the show. I have no reason, you know, but I don't think they'll do it.

Closing Thoughts and Final Testimony

John Dehlin [00:24:45] Well, let's end with your equivalent of a testimony. If you had a few final words. I mean, you said a lot. I've asked you almost everything. Thrown the kitchen sink at you. All my questions are answered.

Shawn McCraney [00:25:00] My final testimony is the Lord changed a wretched man's life. I still fail, but he changed me. And people who have known me know he has. And that can happen for anybody of any faith, whether they decide to stay in that faith or leave it. I apologize to people if they feel that I have an axe to grind against individual Mormons because I don't. I love them. And for the record, I've said this on the show, I like them often much better than the Christians I know, you know, because at least they sometimes hold to a standard of decorum and you don't always find that in the Christian community. So I have a love for the lds and that's why I do what I do. I pray for grace and love from people if they watch the program. But my heart is to help people understand who Jesus is because he does change lives. We see it, and he changed mine.

John Dehlin [00:26:09] That's your testimony?

Shawn McCraney [00:26:10] That's it.

John Dehlin [00:26:11] It's too simple, really. It's got to be more complicated. Get out a little.

Shawn McCraney [00:26:15] I got nothing more, man.

John Dehlin [00:26:17] Sean McCraney, thanks for coming on Mormon Stories. It's been a pleasure.

Shawn McCraney [00:26:20] Thank you, John. It's been my pleasure.

Guest [00:26:23] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. To comment on this episode or to provide feedback, please check us out@mormonstories.org if

John Dehlin [00:26:32] you want to help keep Mormon Stories

Guest [00:26:33] alive, please consider either making a financial contribution or spreading the word about this episode through your blog, Twitter account, Facebook page, family newsletter, or through your Ward

John Dehlin [00:26:44] Bulletin and ward newsletter.

Guest [00:26:46] Just kidding about those last two. Also, this is a shout out to my tragically hip friends@studiocase.com in New York City. That includes Travis, Jeff, Enoch, and Tony for designing my new Mormon Stories podcast logo. Please check these amazingly talented guys out@studiocase.com or email to thank them@infostudiocase.com and finally, music on this episode was provided by Clayton and Sky Pixton. Check them out@claytonpixton.com or skypixon.com that's sky with an e s k y e pixton.com thank you.

John Dehlin [00:27:26] SA. Sa.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.