Introduction and Background to Peter's Story

John Dehlin [00:00:00] This is mormon stories. I'm John Dehlin.

Mary Danzig [00:00:52] So.

John Dehlin [00:00:52] So, Mary, you talked about the letter being one of the best things that could have ever happened in your marriage. Tell us what happened when the letter got sent out and published. From your perspective, what was the aftermath? Okay, from your perspective.

Mary Danzig [00:01:08] So the aftermath was that a couple weeks. Well, maybe a week after the letter was published, got a phone call from the manager of the orchestra at Temple Square saying that he and the orchestra president wanted to meet with Peter.

John Dehlin [00:01:23] And the president is Mack Christensen. Okay. He's Mr. Mack, right?

Mary Danzig [00:01:27] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:01:27] Okay.

Mary Danzig [00:01:28] And so Peter went to meet with them. Since we lived 100 miles away, they met in a Sizzler in Provo. Kind of a funny place to meet. But anyway, they had a meeting and told them that they had been asked to look into this by the Office of the First Presidency.

John Dehlin [00:01:45] And President Hinckley was prophet at the time, right?

Mary Danzig [00:01:47] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:01:48] Okay.

Mary Danzig [00:01:49] And we don't know. We know they would always talk about Brother Watson, who was the secretary.

John Dehlin [00:01:53] Michael Watson.

Mary Danzig [00:01:54] Michael Watson. So he was the one who gave them instructions. And. And, you know, we don't know beyond that who was involved or not involved. And they told Peter at that point that his membership was in question and that he was not allowed to play in the orchestra until this matter was resolved.

Mary Danzig [00:02:12] And anyway, to make a long story short, Peter comes home, tells me that I'm hysterical because, oh, my gosh, my husband might get excommunicated. And so I wrote some letters to them saying, oh, you know, what's going on? And we didn't hear anything back.

Mary Danzig [00:02:31] Couldn't really get any answers about what Peter was supposed to do to resolve this. And then we finally requested that we have a meeting. And I thought I would come, too, because I thought, well, maybe Peter's just getting too worked up or, I don't know, maybe he came across wrong. To them, I want to come see what's going on for myself. And they decided they wanted the bishop and the stake president there as well. So we met with the bishop, stake president, the orchestra manager, who was not any sort of ecclesiastical leader. He's a paid employee of the orchestra, which makes it kind of interesting that he was at this meeting and then the orchestra president, Matt Christensen.

Mary Danzig [00:03:10] And in that meeting, that was really kind of the beginning of the end of my testimony, because we went in that meeting, and they started out by saying, we want you to know we love you. And from there, it was just.

Mary Danzig [00:03:27] It just. They didn't say anything nice after that. They didn't say, we want to resolve this. They didn't say, we want Peter to be able to play in the orchestra. They didn't say anything. It was, it was, he was on the road to apostasy and that he wasn't, he was trying to bring down the church. And you wouldn't write a letter to that and a letter like that unless your intentions are really bad. And I kept trying to say, Peter's a good person and he has a real concern about this.

Mary Danzig [00:03:54] And it was like talking to a wall. And after about a half hour, I just started to sob because I thought, these men can't see that he's a decent person. We knew these people, we thought they were our friends. And it was like by speaking out, Peter had done something unspeakable. And all of a sudden they didn't see him in the same light. They didn't see him as the same person they'd seen before. Now he was a threat.

Mary Danzig [00:04:21] And I mean, I sat there and cried for an hour and a half and none of them even said, are you okay? And by the time we left, I thought, I don't think they think I should play in the orchestra. And I hadn't even expressed any political view. And my brother who sings in the choir said, well, I'm going to ask him if that's really true because I didn't even want to call him. And they said, well, we don't know if she should play because she seems to agree with her husband too much. And I asked my bishop if I was allowed to play and he said, well, he thought I should be able to.

Mary Danzig [00:04:57] And he called them. And anyway, they, they, they were not welcoming and they eventually said I could play, but in kind of a really derogatory way. But it was just one thing after another where Peter would try, try to meet with the bishop and the bishop would say, well, if you can't see things right, going to have to call a disciplinary court. And all of a sudden I'm finding out you could be excommunicated just because you think that homosexuality isn't chosen and just because you think that people can't reverse it. Like on those two things the bishop said that made him unworthy of a temple recommend that he could not renew his temple recommend with, with those two opinions and, and having my little girl who was six years old say, mommy, why is daddy so sad?

Mary Danzig [00:05:43] And telling her, well, some people disagreed with him and he's, and sometimes even grown ups have a hard time getting along. And there's some people at church and we're just trying to work it out. And she said, well, I don't think we should go to church if they're gonna make Daddy feel that sad. And so I'm really worried. I don't want her to stop going to church. And she says, well, I'll write him a letter, because you know what? Everyone thinks different stuff if I just explain that it'll be okay.

Mary Danzig [00:06:07] So I. And I'm thinking, I'm not sure it's a good idea for her to write a letter. But I. Well, okay, she wants to write a letter. You know, want her to feel empowered. So she'. Just at the beginning of first grade, she can barely write, and she writes this letter. She took, like, an hour writing this letter that nobody thinks the same, and that's okay. Love, Eliza. And drew this nice picture. So I wrote a letter to go with it and just said, this is the conversation we had. I didn't try to make anyone into the bad guy. But could. Could you just talk to her and just reassure her that you love her and that you love her dad and that we're just trying to work things out?

Mary Danzig [00:06:41] And I don't hear anything back for three weeks, so. And Eliza's checking the mail every day. And finally she's like, they can't even write me a letter back. I'm not going to church. They make Daddy sad, and they don't write me back. And so my eternal family was completely crumbling. And I make an appointment, and I talked to the Stake president, and he says, well, we can talk about your daughter once your husband repents.

Mary Danzig [00:07:05] And I said, well, she's just a little girl, and no matter what you think of her, dad, you have a responsibility to her as your priesthood leader. And he kind of. He kind of backed down, but he still didn't talk to her for over two months. And about Christmas time, he decided that. I think he never said he thought he'd made a mistake, but I think he felt like he had and did have a nice conversation with her. But by that time, the damage was done with my daughter. I mean, she.

Mary Danzig [00:07:34] And then it was done with me because, I mean, I would go in and I'd say, my husband feels completely valueless. He feels Peter was incredibly depressed. He would tell me it would be better if he were dead because I could find a priesthood holder that could make me happy and that our family could be happy, but he couldn't think right. So I was ruining. He was ruining the family. And so I was really worried about Peter. And he's so depressed. And I'm really distraught because I'm afraid Peter's going to get excommunicated.

Mary Danzig [00:08:08] And he can't have a temple recommend because of his beliefs. So we can't go to the temple anymore and can't play in the orchestra, which we enjoyed. So it just went on and on. And I wrote to my area authority, and I pour out my heart, and I got to form letter back, which was kind of the nail in the coffin at that point, because I thought, you know, if I had given as much money to a charitable organization as I've given to the church, they would have thought I was worth something just because of all that money. And if I wrote them a letter, they would have called me or written me a personal letter back.

Mary Danzig [00:08:44] But my church is supposed to care about me, doesn't care at all. They'll send me a form letter when I'm saying that my whole life is falling apart. And just over and over, it became very clear to me that my family was completely dispensable to the church. That my children didn't matter, I didn't matter, my husband didn't matter. Once you had crossed a line, you had no value anymore.

Mary Danzig [00:09:13] So I guess in that sense that it was the best thing that ever happened for our marriage. Because I realized I have placed all my allegiance with the church. But it was my husband who would stand by me when I was sobbing on the floor thinking that he was an evil person. He was still there for me and he still cared about me, and he would never abandon me, even when we had trouble. And at the first sign of trouble, my church would leave me entirely. And so. Yeah.

Letters to Church Leaders and Unofficial Discipline

John Dehlin [00:09:46] How are your meetings, Peter? With ecclesiastical leaders or the Sizzler?

Mary Danzig [00:09:51] Any.

John Dehlin [00:09:53] You know, we don't have to go into any of that if you don't want to or if there's anything interesting,

Peter Danzig [00:09:58] you know, let me speak to one thing. They were difficult. Barry Anderson, I thought of, and I still think of. Although we don't get to talk anymore, as a personal friend. No, he was the orchestra manager.

John Dehlin [00:10:16] Okay, Sorry.

Peter Danzig [00:10:18] And at that first meeting, he actually did most of the talking, which I thought was strange because he was the employee and the priesthood leader didn't talk very much. But at the end of the meeting, he said, peter, I know you. I know you didn't mean to bring down the church, and I can see that you're genuinely, deeply concerned about this issue.

Peter Danzig [00:10:43] So I will let them know that I don't know what they'll say. And he promised to try and Find out who I could speak with. Because I said. Because that was one of the things I said. Why did you write to a newspaper? And I said, because I tried to talk to my bishop and he didn't want to hear what I had to say. And I would gladly have this conversation inside the church. I would love to know who to talk to about what I'm concerned about and hear what we're doing about it. But I had no idea how to do it.

John Dehlin [00:11:12] That was a question that some people wrote in and said, why didn't you go to your stake president, your area authority, write letters to the quorum of the 12? Why did you make it a private family matter, family being church, such a public issue. And you're saying you tried with your bishop?

Mary Danzig [00:11:30] You wrote a letter to the Brethren?

Peter Danzig [00:11:31] I wrote a letter to the Brethren. It was about the same time, to be fair. So they maybe would have written back had I not sent one to the newspaper as well. But. Well, no, they never really wrote me back until I sent a little earlier, a couple weeks earlier. But that's not really enough time for a big but. I mean, working where I work, too. I was really clear. Sure, I could talk to my bishop. What's he going to do if, you know, he'll try and tell me. I already knew what would happen.

Peter Danzig [00:12:09] He would try and tell me, resolve my concerns that were a problem. And I wanted to talk to the people who were informing the church on this and see what they were telling the church. I was worried about, are they getting good information and honest, I would have gone that route if there had been anyone to write to.

Peter Danzig [00:12:31] But I kind of tried to research it a little to see who does the research on this in the church. And I never really could figure out. So he promised to find out who I could talk to. When I talked to him later on the phone, he said, or maybe it was. Did I meet with him twice? No, just really once. When I talked to him on the phone, I asked him about it. He said, there are people handling this and they're aware of your concerns and they don't need your input. That was what I was told.

Mary Danzig [00:12:56] Well, that was the other thing. When Peter wrote his letter, I felt. I kind of felt like maybe he shouldn't make it public, But I felt like I had to let him do what he felt compelled to do.

Mary Danzig [00:13:09] But my experience all the way through made me eventually decide that he'd done the right thing to write to the paper. Because I talked to my bishop, I talked to my stake president, I wrote to my area authority twice.

Mary Danzig [00:13:22] I mean, I went, I think, through all the channels you're supposed to, and it was like talking to a brick wall. And there wasn't anything I had to say that affected anything. And it wasn't because they were. I mean, at least my stake president and my bishop, you know, they're good men. I mean, people always say, oh, well, you had really bad leaders. They weren't horrible people.

Mary Danzig [00:13:46] Especially my bishop is actually somebody that I still really love and respect and stake president, I never knew him as well, but they're not bad people. They just. They felt like that was their job. And part of their job is not taking my concerns up higher and saying, well, Mary Danzig thinks that this is wrong.

Mary Danzig [00:14:05] I mean, that wasn't even in their mind that if. That I would. That I would know anything they didn't know. I mean, that was never.

Peter Danzig [00:14:12] And to answer that specific question, I was very careful in how I phrased what I was talking about. It was a public concern because it was an outside of the family issue. It was something that if we think of the church as my parents were doing outside in the community and that I felt completely powerless to do anything about except to, as a child, say, I don't agree with my parent here, and I need you to know that because I'm part of this family and I represent this family, and I can't in good conscience agree with that. And that's really what this was about. It wasn't.

Peter Danzig [00:14:52] It wasn't really something you could resolve inside. And number two, it was a public issue. I never advocated at that point that the church change their internal stance on anything because I knew that wasn't my right as a member of the church to advocate something like that.

Peter Danzig [00:15:10] But I felt like it was my right and responsibility to say, I think I'm concerned because this is out in the public thing, and I don't think it's right.

John Dehlin [00:15:19] There must have been a citizenship sort of voter constitutional imperative that you were feeling.

Peter Danzig [00:15:25] Well, we didn't read the other letter to the editor, but I really. I felt like the pursuit of happiness includes deciding who's in your family. That just seemed pretty elemental to me, and I felt like we were trying to infringe on that right for a lot of people who had very different beliefs. And I had done enough work with religion to know that there were a lot of religions who believed in the sanctity of the same gender marriage and that we were infringing on people's religious beliefs by trying to create A law. And that really didn't sit right with me because what I still really loved about the church were some of those principles.

Peter Danzig [00:16:03] We were taught that people worship according to the dictates of their own conscience, and we allow everyone that freedom. Those were things that still rang deeply true. It was part of why I could stay in the church without a literal belief were these things that I loved, that I felt were being trampled by this action. So as much as it was a civic concern, it was a deeply religious concern as well.

John Dehlin [00:16:30] That makes sense. So was there ever any action taken, ecclesiastical action taken?

Peter Danzig [00:16:38] Well, I mean, if you look in the church handbook, there's official and unofficial discipline. And I'm assuming I was unofficially disciplined. I was threatened repeatedly that I would be brought to a disciplinary council where I could be excommunicated. That happened fairly frequently. At the same time, the church was evolving. Mary said they were going to. The bishop told me I'd probably have to go through a disciplinary council if I refused to recant my belief that homosexuality was innate and for most people, not open to change sexuality in general, their orientation. So. But not too long after that, Elder Oaks and Elder Wickman did that interview with the PR department and clarified that the church no longer held that stance quite as strongly.

John Dehlin [00:17:32] Do you feel like that was related to your letter?

Peter Danzig [00:17:34] You know, I don't think that was. I think there was a lot close

Mary Danzig [00:17:38] to when he wrote that letter.

Peter Danzig [00:17:39] There was a lot of pressure just in general on the church at the time. And the most recent statement from Elder Oaks that everyone was pointing to was from 1995. And there was a lot of research since then. And so they desperately needed to kind of, I think, have an updated statement. But I pointed that out, and family wrote letters to the bishop and stake president saying, how come something's wrong here? Because the church seems to have changed this position that you're insisting Peter believe.

John Dehlin [00:18:12] I think you could argue that your mistake from the church perspective wasn't your stance on homosexuality. It was publicly criticizing their decisions. Is that fair?

Mary Danzig [00:18:24] Maybe it started that way, but honestly, once they got going, I mean, it was an issue. It was deeper than that because they were really concerned about what he thought, what he believed.

Peter Danzig [00:18:35] It was very interesting, actually. Initially, everyone thought I was gay. First off, nobody ever said, are you gay? But how are things with your wife? Are you all right? Are there any problems in your relationship? Which I. You could just. You could kind of.

Peter Danzig [00:18:54] Maybe I'm wrong, but it did seem like everybody was kind of plumbing. It's maybe Peter Gay. And that's why he's. And then it was, you're an apostate. You oppose, you disagree with the Brethren on this issue and you're willing to say it, and that makes you an apostate.

Peter Danzig [00:19:10] And then after the Church's stance changed and then the Church, as part of their response, it happened, gosh, a year in, all of a sudden the bishop said, you know, they didn't ever ask you to write in support of that. They just said, write your feelings. Which I did, incidentally. And Senator Hatch wrote me back and said, I'm so glad you support my legislation and I will continue to fight for it.

John Dehlin [00:19:37] So I didn't read your letter.

Mary Danzig [00:19:38] No.

Peter Danzig [00:19:40] Which I thought you had the same training as some church leaders. So all of a sudden at the end, they said, you hurt the Brethren's feelings and you have to apologize.

John Dehlin [00:19:57] They being who? Who said that?

Peter Danzig [00:19:59] The stake president.

John Dehlin [00:20:00] So you're having conversations with their bishop and stake president.

Peter Danzig [00:20:04] If I really push to have one.

Mary Danzig [00:20:06] In the whole year and a half between both of us, there were eight meetings.

John Dehlin [00:20:10] Okay.

Mary Danzig [00:20:10] Some with him or a total of eight meetings. And we made the majority of them. It really felt like once they saw that Peter thought these weird things, they really wished he would disappear, that that's

Peter Danzig [00:20:20] leave him alone and see if he shuts up. That's probably. I could understand that.

John Dehlin [00:20:24] So you. So you don't think now that some excommunication was looming?

Peter Danzig [00:20:29] It's so hard to know, but I was threatened repeatedly.

John Dehlin [00:20:32] But they let you. A year and a half.

Mary Danzig [00:20:33] No.

Peter Danzig [00:20:34] A year and a half in. No. They going to just let me be. I would not be able to get a temple recommend if I didn't write this apology letter. And I wrote one and the stake president said no, because I said, I'm really sorry. I probably used harsher language than I should have. Here's what I was trying to say in as nice a way as I can, and here's some of the background with why I would be upset about someone being fired. And I may have. You know, I tried to explain what was going on and it became very clear that I was to say I was wrong. I was a very bad boy. I'm so sorry. Please forgive me.

John Dehlin [00:21:13] So you did write an apology, but it wasn't.

Peter Danzig [00:21:15] I wrote three total and the first two were completely rejected. He said they would not do. And I finally wrote one that really biting my tongue. I said, okay.

John Dehlin [00:21:27] And why were you writing apologies?

Peter Danzig [00:21:29] To get out of trouble.

John Dehlin [00:21:30] So that you could. What?

Peter Danzig [00:21:31] So that I could Get a temple. Argument against.

John Dehlin [00:21:33] Why did you want that?

Peter Danzig [00:21:35] Well, because.

Mary Danzig [00:21:35] So I would stop sobbing so that.

John Dehlin [00:21:39] So you could go together. You were still going to the temple?

Mary Danzig [00:21:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:42] Putting his name in the box.

Mary Danzig [00:21:43] I was in the primary presidency most of the time this was going on. And one. I mean, our families, very lds, all returned missionaries on both sides of our families. I mean, Peter can have a temple recommend. I mean, then he's not allowed to participate. Weddings, family, baby blessings and some wards, all kinds of things.

John Dehlin [00:22:04] And it's just always Peter's on the aisle. Can't be in the circle.

Peter Danzig [00:22:08] Your children get a very subtle message.

Mary Danzig [00:22:11] Well, Peter and our oldest daughter is coming up on age 8. And I'm thinking, I can't tell her that her daddy's unworthy to baptize her. I mean, that was a huge realization to me when I realized that calling anyone unworthy is a really awful, awful thing to do. And it's a really terrible way to separate anybody, to determine that one person's behavior is unworthy and another person, well, they. They have different problems, so they can still be worthy. And just the fact that his mind made him unworthy, that his thoughts made him unworthy. So, I mean, it was a big issue. How could. He had to be active in the. I mean, he had to be fully worthy or.

John Dehlin [00:22:51] Well.

Peter Danzig [00:22:51] And ultimately, I mean, we did really love playing in the orchestra, and I was hoping to return to that at some point.

John Dehlin [00:22:57] You thought that there might be a chance they'd take you back?

Mary Danzig [00:23:00] Well, for a few months. I mean, well, before. A year and a half, we'd given up on that, but that's probably true.

Peter Danzig [00:23:07] But I did want to believe.

Mary Danzig [00:23:08] Yeah, well.

Peter Danzig [00:23:09] And it was just making a mess in our personal lives. And so I wrote the letter that the stake president finally said was okay. And I thought, all right, we're finished. And then he said, now I want you to make copies for all of the first presidency in the Quorum of the twelve. One for the bishop and one for me and one for the orchestra president, Matt Christensen, and one for Barry Anderson, and send them to everybody. And he did mention that by no means are you to ever send this to a newspaper.

Mary Danzig [00:23:48] So.

Peter Danzig [00:23:49] Which was kind of. It was a funny aside, but. And I went home, and then he read me. I can't remember what the scripture was, but he told me to go home and read a couple of scriptures. And it was about people who raged against authority and how they were like wild beasts and something about the mob. Another one was about the mobbers who Killed Joseph Smith. And I should read that and be glad. I don't remember exactly what it was, but it was just incredibly insulting. Like I had been this beast that had now been tamed. And we were going to. Now that you are bending down to us and you'll send all these letters off to everybody we tell you to.

Peter Danzig [00:24:34] It had been. I mean, part of it for me was I thought about it a lot. I thought I could just write the letter they want and get out of trouble. But it really. I wanted to be honest because I said. I said what I thought. And I don't want to lie in some letter about this because I thought I did. Honestly, I thought I could have been nicer and I could have been more careful with what I said. Probably true. I was extremely upset that month.

Peter Danzig [00:25:04] And I recognized some of my own experiences with my father had. There was a lot of my own stuff that went into that that made me upset. But I didn't disagree with what I said. I didn't even disagree with how I said it. I just understood that it had been painful for them, more painful than I had intended.

Peter Danzig [00:25:23] But that wasn't an acceptable apology. And so finally I thought, I just. This isn't going to work. Just send this to everybody and to pretend that I agree with it. And so I went back to him and said, people are. I had written down what happened because we had wanted to send it to a general authority. We did actually. Well, maybe we didn't actually send it to nobody, but I had sent it to Matt Christensen and Barry Anderson. Just saying, this is how I saw what happened. And correct me if I misunderstood anything or if it happened differently. And then I took it to the bishop and stake president, too, and I said, people are asking me why they don't see us in broadcast.

Peter Danzig [00:26:16] They're asking us why we aren't in the orchestra. I'm never going to have a temple recommend. And I have to. I cannot spend four hours on the phone with everybody I know explaining this.

Mary Danzig [00:26:25] Well, we don't want to go every wedding reception or something and you haven't seen everyone. And they say, hey, we haven't seen the orchestra lately. And that sends me into tears. And that totally ruins this lovely moment. You know, there's Peter's crazy wife. And so we just wanted everyone to know and if they wanted to talk to us, then we can. But it's not going to be at some horrible moment where it's completely inappropriate.

Peter Danzig [00:26:45] So I said, this is for me to share with people. And I said, it's long troubled me that the church can't articulate their point of view because you only get a one sided thing. And I understand that you aren't allowed to talk about this because you have a confidentiality agreement. And I have the same dilemma as a therapist.

Peter Danzig [00:27:08] People can say whatever they want about me and I don't get to respond. I said, so I can't really fix that. But what I promised to do is, whatever you tell me is incorrect here, I will either correct it or I will write at the end what you said and I will show it to you and you'll see what I'm sending out.

Peter Danzig [00:27:28] And the bishop said, peter, I don't think you should send this out to anybody. I said, well, do you have corrections? Because I think that's what I need to do. And he said the only correction he gave me was that the church hadn't asked me to write my senator in support of that. They had just asked me to express my views. And so I politely said, I think it was kind of implied, but I'll put that in at the end that you said that. And he said, I think you're going to have to go through a disciplinary council if this gets outside your family.

Mary Danzig [00:28:03] Immediate family, yeah.

Silenced by the Stake President

Peter Danzig [00:28:06] So then I took it to the stake president who read it and he told me, this is wonderful family history and it better not get to anyone outside your immediate family or we'll hold a disciplinary council.

John Dehlin [00:28:19] For what?

Peter Danzig [00:28:19] Because the church looked really bad in it because it wasn't a faith promoting story. And he was upset with me. He said, where's all the nice stuff that happened in the church? And I said, the last year and a half have not been nice. I said, my life has been a testament to the nice stuff that happened in my church. We just helped compose a musical about handcart pioneers. But this is what happened. This is why I'm not playing in the orchestra. This is what I need to tell people when they ask. And so he said, well then if you share that outside of your family, we'll have to call a disciplinary council and you'll probably be excommunicated.

Mary Danzig [00:28:57] Well, he said that Peter would be like Saul of Tarsus if he, if he did this. So I mean, he would, I guess, be like someone who would watch Stephen be stoned.

Peter Danzig [00:29:09] But now if it had just. I had thought about this for a long time. Would I go through an excommunication if it had just been me? I thought maybe I would because I felt like the problem that I was worried about in the church was that people were not free to talk about the abuses that happened to them and that this would be something people would hear about.

Peter Danzig [00:29:34] But it was pretty clear to me and talking to Mary, that she wasn't ready to go through an experience like that. And the other piece of it that was very disturbing was that I wasn't really sure I wanted to go through. I'd already been through a meeting like this with people sitting in judgment over me. And it was not a loving, kind experience. It was an abusive experience.

Peter Danzig [00:29:56] I wasn't really sure that I should force my family to go through my kid's best friend, dad, sitting in judgment on their father and throwing him out of their church. And I thought about it, and I had already thought about it, and I thought maybe the best path would be that if I'm not wanted in the church, there is an exit route that I can take.

Peter Danzig [00:30:21] And I thought people have asked why I chose this. I personally think it's very empowering to say, you know, I'm going to leave one way or another. Some people want the experience, and they find it empowering to go through the disciplinary council. I personally find it empowering to say, I will not submit to unrighteous dominion, and I will not submit to a council that's being held to be abusive to me.

Peter Danzig [00:30:48] And that was actually, I think it was a good choice for me personally, as part of my journey was to say, there's no reason for me to be abused or judged or harmed by you in any way unless it serves some greater good.

Peter Danzig [00:31:02] And we really aren't ready for that. It's a small community, and we know all the people are deeply involved in our lives that will be sitting in this council. And I don't know that this. I mean, there were a lot of issues mixed up in this because I don't know that the state president meant to threaten my employment. But he had talked earlier on about, what if I told everybody you were a dangerous counselor? And this was not a good thing, you know, particularly because I worked very hard to be a safe counselor for people who believed in the church. But I didn't need people having family press. Don't go to that scary apostate county

Mary Danzig [00:31:46] when you live in a county where there are two states in the whole county. I mean, it's social suicide to go through an excommunication or have the stake president say things about you. And just the things some of our kids had experienced just as we were going through this kind of seemed like a foreshadowing of bigger things that could happen.

Peter Danzig [00:32:10] And I knew what happened to social outcasts in the small town because I was seeing a lot of them in my office and I didn't want to see that in my kids future. So we eventually decided we have to move and we'll resign when we move. And then the real issue for me was I was told you cannot stay here and talk about what happened to you. And you can't talk about what's happening to other people if you stay here. So I decided and I will go. And it was my choice to go so that I would be free to speak about what happened and free to speak about the problems I saw. So it was my choice to resign because it wasn't them throwing me out, it was me saying I have to speak. And it was either shut up or get out.

John Dehlin [00:32:59] And so I woke up and you both resigned together.

Mary Danzig [00:33:04] We did. Well, Peter had decided in 2007, about September, October, we both decided that we really had to move. And I had decided I just couldn't go to church anymore at that point. Peter had stopped going a few minutes

Peter Danzig [00:33:20] before and Mary would go to church and just sob.

Mary Danzig [00:33:24] I did. I spent a lot of time in the bathroom crying. It was really not pretty. So I hadn't decided to resign. I felt like that would really hurt my mom. And I felt like these are my people.

Mary Danzig [00:33:39] Even if I don't ever go back to church, these are my people. I'm a Mormon. It's just who I am. And Peter, he was going to resign. I wasn't. But I went to the meeting with the Stake president, I guess it was in August where he had said to Peter that if he shared this outside of his immediate family, he'd be disciplined. And I thought, well, I kept going through my mind that I'm sure that applies to me too. And I felt like I can't live the rest of my life knowing that if I talk about this, two men will come to my door and call me to a church court.

Mary Danzig [00:34:15] And having lived in a small town where, I mean, there are 800 people in the town and you didn't know who was related to who. And I'm going through this awful experience and I'm trying not to talk to very many people about it because you don't know who it's going to get back to. And honestly, I mean, my bishop and stake president were decent people, so I didn't really want to ruin their reputation if that was possible. I mean, I didn't think I really would win out if it was me against them, you know, they were going to win. But I didn't really want to do that.

Peter Danzig [00:34:44] Yeah, neither, in fact. They were both great guys. They're just doing their job.

Mary Danzig [00:34:51] Yeah, they both were just trying to do what they felt that they were supposed to do. And so I finally just thought. And then the whole time this was happening, when I would tell somebody some of what was going on, they would usually respond to me by telling me something horrible that had happened to them or to a family member in the church. And a lot of the stories were a lot worse than what had happened to me. And I thought, this is rampant. This is because there's no way to resolve it. There's no way to make it public in some way or some place, you know, some place to go and, you know, your grievances or whatever.

Mary Danzig [00:35:30] There's nothing like that. And I realized these things are happening to a lot of people. And so I just thought, I really can't be quiet. I know what it feels like to be so deeply hurt, and I can't in good conscience be quiet, think that I'm making any change. And also, I become really evident that I would never make any change in the church because I'm. I mean, my sense was I'm a woman. And that means that any man who disagrees with me will know that I just don't know anything because he has the priesthood. And, I mean, that was really something that I got out of this experience that I hadn't really thought before, but.

Mary Danzig [00:36:07] And so in the end, about December, as we were getting ready to move, I finally thought, I'm just resigning. I don't want to. To worry that someday someone's going to come to my door and I'm going to have to go into a room with 15 men staring me down. I mean, it seems so incredibly intimidating and humiliating. And I couldn't live that.

John Dehlin [00:36:25] Was it kind of like living with an axe over your head?

Mary Danzig [00:36:28] Yeah, it was knowing that. Yeah. If I said something or say, well, we're still down in this little town, say that I talked to someone, you know, in confidence. Someone finds me in the bathroom crying. I mean, everyone in the ward knew something was terribly wrong. Like, I'm totally falling apart all the time.

Peter Danzig [00:36:47] And of course, they all have to guess.

Mary Danzig [00:36:49] Well, their guess is that I'm probably. Peter's probably cheated on me. Cause eventually he stops. And there were some people I talked to, but not a whole lot. And my fear is I'm gonna end up talking to someone that's gonna be the second cousin of the stake president. And the next thing I know, I'm gonna be in a disciplinary council with the piano teacher's husband and one of my best friend's husbands and. And my dentist.

Listener Questions and Reflections on Leaving

John Dehlin [00:37:22] So, real quick, I don't mean to interrupt, but there's a question that I got from a listener that just kind of blew me away. It caught me in left field. I had no idea what they were talking about, but they sounded like they had some inside information. And so I thought I sneak this in in between the wonderful story you guys are telling so far. So here's the question I feel the listener writes in. I feel very strongly that the way Craig Jessup was let go, Craig Jessup, being the former lead what?

Mary Danzig [00:38:00] Director of the Mormon Tyler, the Mormon Tide.

John Dehlin [00:38:03] I feel the way Craig Jessup was let go without really being honored in any way, after doing such a great job with the choir, says that he was being let go as punishment for not going along with the witch hunt in the choir for gay sympathizers. I'd never heard any of this. I think this had to come directly from the top. I would love to hear the Danzig take this on. So the questions that I would ask are, gay witch hunt, what, first of all, secondly, Was Craig Jessup let go, do you think? Or did he just resign? And what's behind this question? It just is totally out of left field for me.

Mary Danzig [00:38:50] Well, some facts. We do know the last broadcast that Craig Jessup ever conducted was the morning that our story came out in the Tribune. And we also know that President Monson was at that broadcast. Beyond that, we know that Craig didn't show up to the next rehearsal or the next broadcast. Right. And then the Tuesday morning, Tuesday night rehearsal where he resigned. He came in, read his letter of resignation, and left.

Mary Danzig [00:39:22] We also know that Craig Jessup was not involved in what happened with us in any way, but he was the one person who showed us compassion through this. So my brother sings in the Tabernacle Choir, and more than once, Craig asked my brother how we were and asked him to convey his love for us through my brother.

Mary Danzig [00:39:47] And when I decided I needed to just resign from the orchestra, that that was never going to work out. He wrote me a very kind letter, just telling, you know, wishing me well. So those are things we know.

John Dehlin [00:40:01] He never reached out to you guys personally, though.

Mary Danzig [00:40:03] Well, except the letter that he just sent. But my experience with Craig Jessup was very positive. My impression of him has always been that he's a very kind man. Who was really good to everybody he dealt with and very fair, and heard the rumors about the gay witch hunt, which make a lot of sense to me.

Peter Danzig [00:40:27] I will say it's a rumor, and it's probably the most persistent one I've heard. What I would say.

John Dehlin [00:40:33] So is it a witch hunt for gays in the choir or for gay sympathizers?

Peter Danzig [00:40:38] Probably both. Here's the choir. When I first talked to them, there was this panic that an enemy had infiltrated. This is how they said the first presidency is worried that an enemy has infiltrated the orchestra. So what I would say is the idea of a witch hunt coming out of that makes sense to me. If you look at this panic that there are people with agendas in our institution that may just pop out of the woodworks, like those Danzig.

Peter Danzig [00:41:10] Now, there's no organized. Good heavens, I don't know. Anyway, we're all silent. Of course there are gays in the choir, and of course there are sympathizers in the choir and the orchestra, because there are everywhere. And we don't know who each other are because we're all too scared to tell anybody. So that's.

Peter Danzig [00:41:31] But what I would say, too, if you are a student of church history, you'll notice that people who protest are discarded and erased, if possible. In fact, this particular instance puts me in mind of Jesse Gause, one of the original 12 apostles. Very recent discovery that there had been a different person in the first quorum of the 12 apostles. And you kind of see the same thing with previous directors of the choir who have resigned for one reason or another from the church, resigned from the choir.

John Dehlin [00:42:06] So former directors have resigned.

Peter Danzig [00:42:09] Derpens, Barlow Bradford, who was tasked with creating the orchestra, resigned after three years, I think, and Craig Jessup resigned. There's been one other farther back that I can't remember who it was, but if you quit, and my guess is that probably there's some kind of disagreement, you get erased. That seemed to be. Craig Jessup was an incredibly brilliant and inspirational leader for 15 years, and then he was gone one.

Mary Danzig [00:42:47] And it's just. He had a. There was an Easter concert coming up in, like, a month, and a conductor just doesn't.

John Dehlin [00:42:55] And hadn't President Monson just become prophet?

Mary Danzig [00:42:57] He had just become prophet. It's just not something that you. When a conductor is leaving. I mean, take the Utah Symphony. You know, they announce Keith Lockhart will be resigning, and then they spend a year looking for a conductor while he's still conducting before they.

Mary Danzig [00:43:17] Before he moves on. Conductors don't just walk up off, you know, like that. And for Craig to not be at a rehearsal, that's not Craig. And to just read a statement and leave, that's not Craig. He's a very personable person. So I don't know what happened but that is not, that is not a normal scenario in the music world that a renowned conductor is just going to disappear like that. That's just if he'd said, you know, I have a very sick family member or something like that. But there doesn't seem to be any indication that there was some family emergency.

Mary Danzig [00:43:57] You just don't leave a job like that so quickly. Because the conductor is such an essential part of the organization. They need time to figure out what they're going to do. You know, that's something that you would do over a course of months and you would have some sort of going away party or something.

Peter Danzig [00:44:14] I mean, honestly, pretty much all of this is conjecture and rumor.

Mary Danzig [00:44:20] The fact that the last time he was at anything was the morning that our story came out just seems, I mean I don't know that it had anything specifically to do with us exactly, but it just. To me I think it means it had to have something to do with the issue of homosexuality or the way that something. I mean it's just really strange timing.

Peter Danzig [00:44:43] Obviously our view is a little bit colored by our own experience which is that if you have dissented in some way, even if it's one issue, if you suddenly become seen as part of a big problem, then they're done with you. And I suspect that in some way that happened with Craig for whatever reason but. And Craig, if you're listening, we love you, miss you and hope to see you again.

Mary Danzig [00:45:09] Very good man.

John Dehlin [00:45:11] So we don't know if he was fired or if he quit.

Peter Danzig [00:45:15] Oh well, he quit.

Mary Danzig [00:45:16] I would guess he quit.

John Dehlin [00:45:18] And we have no idea whether he was quit because something because of you guys or because of how you were treated or it was totally unrelated.

Mary Danzig [00:45:27] Well, I don't know, I don't think that like Craig would have said, oh this happened to the dancing and therefore I'm gonna distraught the whole choir. I mean I think that would be kind of self centered of me. You know, I don't think that he quit because of me. I don't think that at all.

Peter Danzig [00:45:41] No, I'm sure there were other issues

Mary Danzig [00:45:43] but I think that there were issues around, you know, that we were probably a piece of, if that makes sense. And I would guess that homosexuality was that issue because if you look at. Well if you look at music in general, there are a lot of gay musicians, and the church is no different. And if you look around, if you look carefully, you're going to find that there are a lot of gay musician Mormons in the church. And if you go to other churches in Salt Lake and you see who the organists are and who the choir directors are, you'll mostly find that they're gay ex Mormons who got kicked out of the church. So, I mean, there are definitely gay people in the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. And because of other things that have happened there, I'm sure that the gay issue is a real hot topic.

Peter Danzig [00:46:34] That's all we know.

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