Introducing the Episode and Its Guest

Shelise Sola [00:00:01] Hey, my name is Shalice Ansola and this is Cults to Consciousness where we discuss leaving high demand religions or organizations and finding healing and independence through awareness and true individual sovereignty. If you're listening only, you're definitely going to want to see this one. Head on over to my YouTube channel at Cults to Consciousness where you can like subscribe. Hit the bell so you don't miss an episode. Leave your comments. We would like to start featuring comments now, so if you have anything burning that you would like to ask, leave it below.

Shelise Sola [00:00:28] And today's guest, you probably already recognize this studio. I am currently sitting in the Mormon Stories studio. Amped up because today's guest is the number one voice in the ex Mormon space and even the Mormon space. He has a PhD in counseling psychology. He has been podcasting since 2005 and he has been featured on many different publications and a whole bunch of other podcasts. He is an expert voice in this space and, and he is here with me today. So thank you so much for joining me. John de Lynn.

John Dehlin [00:01:04] Hey Chalice, nice to meet you in person.

Shelise Sola [00:01:06] It's so nice to meet you in person. It's a little crazy being here in real life cause I've watched your podcast for so long, so it's an honor

John Dehlin [00:01:13] to be here and I've been just delighted at the quick and rapid growth of your YouTube channel and your kind of production quality.

Shelise Sola [00:01:24] Thank you so much. Yeah, I definitely have my fiance slash co producer to thank for that.

John Dehlin [00:01:28] Jonathan's in the house.

Shelise Sola [00:01:29] Jonathan's in the house. Yeah. So I'm thrilled to be here. I have been watching your show for years now and it's so nice to hear your perspectives, to hear your guests perspectives. Everyone just has so much to offer and so now I'm just curious after thousands of interviews, I want to know what you would do if you were the prophet of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Because I know in your interviews you always say, look, I'm not trying to burn the church to the ground. I just want to make it a better place so people have a healthier environment to raise their families to basically worship in a way that is, is good and healthy and you know, have their own thing.

Shelise Sola [00:02:11] So I cannot wait to hear your responses on what you think and what you would do. Because also, let me just like continue my rant here. You have done so many different things that have actually changed policies within the church. I mean people. And I've joked on my podcast before that you're kind of more of a prophet than the current prophet in the way that you affect change. So examples here, exposing harmful rhetoric about miracle forgiveness, and it gets pulled from Deseret book. You do a TED Talk on changing LGBTQ plus policies, and lo and behold, the church makes some changes. You inspired Jeremy Reynolds to write the CES letter.

Shelise Sola [00:02:50] So many things, and it's amazing. I'm just. Let me just applaud you in person. Congratulations on doing such a great job. So. So let's dive into it.

John Dehlin [00:03:01] And. And I. I guess I just have to give a caveat that I can't take credit for all that stuff at all. Some of that is kind of correlation, not causation. I. And, and any of us stand on the shoulders of giants that have made it possible for us to do what we do. So there's a combination caveat of I owe everything I do to a lot of great, amazing people. And, and a lot of that stuff I had maybe had some part in, but maybe shared a lot of credit with a lot of courageous, smart, capable people.

Shelise Sola [00:03:35] I mean, yeah, he's being humble. Guys, I would say that you are a big part of this, but that's also why I wanted to do this episode and just see what your thoughts are. And if you did have the opportunity to change some things and make it a safer environment for its members, what would that look like? So take it away, John.

Proposed Changes to the Mormon Church

John Dehlin [00:03:54] Okay, so you just want me to kind of list changes I would make to the Mormon Church if I. If I were prophet?

Shelise Sola [00:04:01] Yes, yes. Changes you would make. And we can go deeper into each topic if you would like. It's. It's all up to you.

John Dehlin [00:04:09] All right. Yeah. Because people ask me all the time, is there anything the Church could do to get you back? Right. And that's. That's a complicated question because in many ways, I. I'm one of the weird sort of scenarios where I didn't leave the church because it hurt me overtly or because I was having a bad experience in it. I mean, obviously as a white, straight, cisgender male who's middled, upper middle class and semi educated, the church was kind of made by and for me. Right?

Shelise Sola [00:04:45] Yeah, a little bit.

John Dehlin [00:04:46] So, yeah. So I, I just. And not to say that white guys can't be harmed by the church, obviously, but in my case, I didn't lose my faith in the church or leave it because of, like, significant trauma that I had experienced or even because I was having a bad experience. It was more things like the history and the truth claims and, and the way I saw the church harming other marginalized communities. So anyway, so when I, when I talk about the church or the possibility of ever returning to it. Yeah, it, it, it's more about changes it would need to make for other people.

Shelise Sola [00:05:27] Yeah. Which is great. I mean it's, it's really empathetic of you to consider other people because some people are very tunnel vision. They're like, well, I'm not hurt in the church, so why does it need to change? Like you guys are just being wimps or something. But it is, it's very empathetic for you, especially because you, you see these stories firsthand and you interview these people, these heart wrench stories. So. All right, so what would be your first change?

John Dehlin [00:05:50] So I think the, the first thing, if I were made prophet, if I were re baptized into the church and made prophet, the Mormon Church, the first thing I would do is get the church to formally apologize for all the ways it's deceived or harmed people. Because, you know, the church will talk about these things later because they're their own segments that need to be dealt with. But as you've probably talked about a lot in your podcast, the Mormon Church has not been open and honest with its problematic history. The Mormon Church has several credible science based and evidence based challenges to its truth, to its absolute truth claims.

Shelise Sola [00:06:36] Right.

John Dehlin [00:06:36] That are, that are deeply problematic. And then the Mormon Church is harmed a lot of marginalized communities. And so step one would be for the church to just offer a massive apology and say, you know, we, the Mormon Church, we are sorry for our misogyny, for, for making women institutional second class citizens for over two centuries. We're sorry for our racism. We're sorry for excluding, you know, black members from full membership and participation for, I don't know, 100 and whatever, 80 years. We're sorry for telling Native Americans that their skin was dark because their ancestors were wicked and the God made their skin dark so that they would be loathsome to the white man and woman. Which is factually incorrect and also, yes, grossly racist.

Shelise Sola [00:07:35] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:07:36] All the lgbtq, you know, the deaths by suicide and the depression and anxiety for the church's homophobic policies. The way that it's broken up families, mixed faith marriages and destroyed divided families asunder. You know, there's just so much that the church needs to atone for the way that it's extracted hundreds of billions of dollars, not to mention time and reputation of its members under the, under, under kind of fraudulous terms. And I'm to a, to an act of believing Mormon. My words are probably sounding super duper harsh. I don't hate the Mormon Church. I don't want to see it destroyed. And I think I'm of the rare opinion that I think the church has done a lot of good and may this would be the most heretical thing I say on your podcast.

John Dehlin [00:08:32] Maybe the Mormon Church Net does more good than I think. I'm, I'm ambivalent about that question. So even though my words are pretty harsh, they don't come from a place of hate or malice towards the church. It's just like, clean up your mess. Like, the US Government's made a huge mess and I'm still a citizen of the US government, you know?

John Dehlin [00:08:56] You know, like there isn't a corporation, I used to work for Microsoft. Like there isn't a large organization on the planet that hasn't done a lot of harm. So when I, when I speak harshly about the Mormon Church, it's just, it's from, it's from just a, it's from a realization that large organizations often cause harm. And the Mormon Church is no exception to that. So, so the church taught all of us when you, when you sin, the church taught us the steps for repentance. You know, it's things like confess the sin.

Shelise Sola [00:09:30] Accountability.

John Dehlin [00:09:31] Yeah, accountability. You forsake the sin, you stop doing the sin, you confess it, you try and make restitution and, and then you never do it again.

Shelise Sola [00:09:42] Right.

John Dehlin [00:09:43] And you know, the church knows how to repent because it makes all of us, it shames so many of us into this sort of very unhealthy and shameful sort of repentance for things that we actually have no business even apologizing or repenting for. So the church should be a world class leader in apologizing and repenting. And they don't. So that would be number one. And we could probably spend 10 years as a church just apologizing in all the ways we need to apologize. So that's step one.

Shelise Sola [00:10:15] Step one.

John Dehlin [00:10:16] Pause and let you respond.

Shelise Sola [00:10:18] I think that is a great step one. The thing, I think the reason why they don't do it is because people would be like, oh, so you're admitting that you did something wrong? And by admitting you did something wrong, that means that there's something that I need to check into. Like, I didn't know about the lame. And I think honestly, I didn't learn about that whole racist history with the lame knights until, I don't know, 2020. I was like, wait, I was supposed to believe that I had no idea. So by them admitting it would cause their members to say, oh, so all these things I had heard in the past were not ex Mormon literature.

Shelise Sola [00:10:51] It was actually truth. I don't know if they could withstand that, because, I mean, what's your opinion? Do you think that the members would be like, you know what? That was really brave of them. I. I'm glad they took responsibility. Or do you think they'd be like, yeah, I'm out of here.

John Dehlin [00:11:06] Yeah. So in my view. So once upon a time, I'll tell a quick little story. Once upon a time, my brother, My older brother Joel, worked at church headquarters at the highest levels of the church. So we're talking worked on a daily basis with members of the first presidency, the quorum of the 12, because he was the head of it.

John Dehlin [00:11:25] He was a managing director over computers and technology for the whole church. And he was friends with Elder Bednar and Elder Holland and all these apostles. And during kind of my, you know, the early years of the podcast, and then my own faith crisis, he's like, hey, John, why don't I set up a lunch with you and Elder Holland, you know, one of the apostles church?

John Dehlin [00:11:46] So I spent weeks planning for that lunch with Elder Holland. And, you know, I didn't want to just, like, ask him a bunch of gotcha questions, because that. About. By that point, I didn't believe anymore. But I. I didn't want to embarrass my brother. I didn't want to hurt his job. I didn't want to, you know, make the guy. I didn't want to ambush the guy.

John Dehlin [00:12:10] So I was. So I thought, okay, you know, he'll probably ask me for advice whether or not he intended to actually follow it. He would probably ask just to be polite. And so I thought for days and weeks, what's some advice I would give Elder Holland when he asks? But I gave myself a couple rules about the advice. It had to. It had to be advice that wouldn't weaken the church.

Shelise Sola [00:12:42] Interesting.

John Dehlin [00:12:43] And when I say weaken the church, I mean decrease its tithing, decrease its active membership. That was the only criteria. Right. It would. It would have to improve the church and not. Not damage it. And, you know, I couldn't think of one.

Shelise Sola [00:12:58] Really.

John Dehlin [00:12:59] Literally couldn't think of one thing.

Shelise Sola [00:13:00] Wow.

John Dehlin [00:13:00] And here's why. The whole premise of Mormonism is that God speaks to prophets today. That God spoke to Enoch and Amos and Elijah, and, you know, David and Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and Ezekiel, and, you know, Peter, James, and John, and, you Know, God speaking to prophets has not ceased that. Just like he spoke with Joseph Smith. He's spoken with every prophet, seer, and revelator from Joseph Smith till today. That's the whole premise. That's the value proposition of Mormonism, that our leaders speak to and for God and Jesus themselves. And that's. That's the secret sauce of Mormonism, that when you hear the leader speak, you basically are hearing from the councils, from Jesus and God's own lips.

Apologizing for Problematic Church History

Shelise Sola [00:13:53] Right.

John Dehlin [00:13:54] So if they were to say, we got it wrong on women.

Shelise Sola [00:13:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:59] Blacks, lgbt, black people, LGBT people, you know, laymanites, the Book of Mormon scripture. We. We were deceiving you all about our problematic history.

Shelise Sola [00:14:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:11] And we. We got all this money through fraudulent means. Sorry, everyone, but. But we're still talking to God now. And listen, you know. You know, polygamy was the first strike. Like, everybody do polygamy. Okay, never mind. You can stop polygamy and then giving black people the priesthood and full fellowship. It's like, okay, God changed his mind again a second time. If the church just keeps doing this, the members are going to catch on and say, I think you're just making this up. And at that point, they're kind of screwed. So that, you know, this apology would damage the church irreparably. I mean, it would still exist because there's a lot of people that make a lot of money off of the church. There's a lot of people who would lose too much if they left, but it would. The church would never be the same.

Shelise Sola [00:15:01] Yeah. And what do you do with that? I mean, when they clearly owe everyone an apology but they can't do it, they just have to gaslight us and say, well, we never said that. We never taught that.

John Dehlin [00:15:10] Now, what they do is they make slow changes over time, never explain why. And then when they've, you know, over a decade or two or three, completely transition to the new way of life, like, no polygamy, you know, like trying to be more honest about its history, treating women a little bit better, being less racist, whatever it is. Then once they've fully made that transition, enough generations have died off, then the church is like, what? We've always loved black people. What. What's the. We've always loved women. Like, we love LGBT people. What's the. You know, because. Because the memory, you know, people's memories are short, you know.

Shelise Sola [00:15:51] Yeah. Especially when you make a change that maybe skips a generation. So then the new people in the church are like, what are you talking about? Crazy temple ceremonies. And like slitting your throat. I don't, that must be ex Mormon rhetoric.

John Dehlin [00:16:03] That's not the Mormon Church. I never saw that in the temple. Right, yeah, yeah. Or even now when the church does something that appears pro lgbt, it's like, what are you talking about? We love LGBT people. We just supported legislation.

Shelise Sola [00:16:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:15] It's like, how about the decades of like conversion therapy and electroshock therapy on at byu? Yeah. And like, it's like what that other Oaks is like that never happened on my watch. And we're like, okay. Elder Oaks.

Shelise Sola [00:16:28] Yeah. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:16:29] Yeah. So anyway, the memory hole is real. The memory hole is real.

Shelise Sola [00:16:32] Yes. So apologize as number one. What would be your number two?

John Dehlin [00:16:36] Man, this is a long list.

Shelise Sola [00:16:38] It is a long list.

John Dehlin [00:16:39] So we're going to be here a while. Okay. So the second thing on my list is informed consent. So so many people are raised in Mormonism or join Mormonism under completely false pretenses.

Informed Consent and Transparency for Members

Shelise Sola [00:16:52] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:16:53] So the best example of this right now is the Church is doing a full court press in Africa, growing by leaps and bounds in one of the only continents left that A, we neglected because of our racist past.

Shelise Sola [00:17:05] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:17:05] For you know, well over a century. But B, you know, I, I, they probably have maybe a little bit less access to the Internet than maybe other continents, I don't know. But like there's just enough poverty there to where the church can kind of still really pull a fast one over an entire continent of people. So the Church is doing this full court press in Africa. They're baptizing Africans like gangbusters. It's really the only continent in the world where the Mormon Church is actually growing, but it's baptizing all these black people, never telling them that for over 150 years the Church literally institutionally excluded their ancestors from temple service, from full membership, from priesthood participation, etc.

John Dehlin [00:17:52] Well, that's, I mean that would, that, that's outrageous. If the church has this super racist past, it would be like the kkk, you know, no longer burning crosses and, and then like recruiting black people into the KKK is like a Elks Lodge Masonic fellowship, never really happening to mention when they sign on the dotted line that the KKK has a super racist past. Like that would never fly. But the Mormon Church does that all the time. And it's not just racism, but in terms of its history.

John Dehlin [00:18:24] And this would be with people born and raised in the Church. You, I got to the age of 31 never hearing the word polyandry in my whole life. Now what is, yeah, what's, what's polyandry? And you're like thinking, wait, do you mean polygamy, John? No, I mean polyandry. What's polyandry, John? It's the fact that Joseph Smith married amongst the 30 plus women that Joseph Smith, Mormon Church's founder. Amongst the 30 plus women that Joseph Smith married, 12 of them were actually married to other men at the time he married them.

Shelise Sola [00:18:58] Sends their husbands on missions and then like all take you in. Don't worry.

John Dehlin [00:19:02] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, why was I 31? I had served a two year mission for my church. I had gone to three years of, three hours of church for like 30 years each week. And I, you know, went to all that BYU religious schooling and early morning seminary for four years in high school. No one ever told me that super basic thing or that Joseph Smith married 14 year old girls that he married mother, daughter, pairs, that he married, sister pairs. Never once in my entire existence, 45 years within the Mormon Church on a Sunday did I ever hear any mention of Joseph Smith's wives other than Emma being a single wife.

John Dehlin [00:19:43] That's fraud. That'd be like joining Bernie Madoff's business and never hearing about all the people that he defrauded. Like, that's outrageous. And that's just two of like a thousand issues that the Church has hidden from not only its members, but from, from the world.

Shelise Sola [00:20:00] Yeah. And not not only hidden, but outright lied about. Like showing the depictions of Joseph Smith, translating the plates. And then later they're like, well, there was a hat. I remember when my friend first told me about that story, I was like, no, that's not how it works. I would know. I'm a Mormon, you know, in high school, trying to fit in. When I moved to Portland and no longer in the Mormon bubble and everyone had all these questions and I'm like, that's just anti Mormon. I had no. It was actually true.

John Dehlin [00:20:27] Yeah, the stone in the hat's a big one. Yeah, stone in the hat. The, you know, the Kinderhook plates, the Book of Abraham problems.

Shelise Sola [00:20:34] Well, the Book of Mormon problems.

John Dehlin [00:20:36] Yeah, yeah, exactly. The anachronisms like why are there horses in the Book of Mormon when there are no horses in the Americas during the time of the Book of Mormon.

Shelise Sola [00:20:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:44] But the Church has kept all of this, so. So informed consent would be my second choice, which basically would be devastating to the Church, but it would basically be the Church saying, here's the truth about our history, here's the truth about all the ways that we've Harmed everybody. And, and we'll educate all the members and if anyone's going to join the church, we'll give you a full education on the Church's problematic past. And then if you want to join or if you want to stay a member, great.

Shelise Sola [00:21:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:11] That would probably involve raising the baptism age from 8 to 18, because how in the world could you ever teach an 8 year old? How could an 8 year old ever even have the maturity and the intelligence to understand the implications of all the problematic history right before they've at least lived a little bit of life? So, I mean, 16, 17, 18 would be the ages where you could start to distribute that curriculum amongst your membership so that then they could, by the time they're an adult, decide if they wanted to be a lifelong member or not. Because make no mistake, when you join the Mormon Church, you're giving two years of your life for a mission.

John Dehlin [00:21:48] You, you're given several hours a week in church service, your identity, your reputation and 10% of your income and your posterity, you're giving all of that to the church and your eternity in theory. So like, you at least deserve to know what you're buying.

Shelise Sola [00:22:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:03] When you buy it.

Shelise Sola [00:22:04] I mean, I would even argue in the Church's standards, if you can teach a 12 year old about how to become a mother, you can teach a 12 year old about the actual history of the church. Start in young women's and young men's if you want to raise it up, maybe like 14 and 15 when they're old enough to really start to understand it in the Church's eyes. Because again, if you can teach a woman how to become a mother and get married in the temple at 12, you should be able to give them the full scope of everything. So I 100 agree with that.

Shelise Sola [00:22:30] And also, at the very least, just teaching the missionaries the full truth so that they can go out armed because you're sending these children out into the world against people who know the information about the church and they're becoming bombarded with questions and they don't know how to answer them. They just think it's, you know, just this isn't true. But if, imagine if they actually had the answers to those questions, those hard questions. Oh yeah, this is what the Church says is the reason for that. Instead of just being a deer in the headlights and going, I don't know how to answer that question.

John Dehlin [00:22:58] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. So informed consents number two.

Shelise Sola [00:23:02] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:23:03] Yeah. Be honest and open about its history and its problems. Okay, we keep going.

Shelise Sola [00:23:07] Let's keep going.

Making Women Equal Citizens in the Church

John Dehlin [00:23:08] Number three is make women equal citizens in the church. I mean the, the, the, one of the roughest, most disturbing things about Mormonism is this, this trillion dollar American church. And if it's not worth a trillion dollars now, it will be very soon. It's certainly worth 500 billion right now and it takes what, seven years for those investments to double. Like if it's not a trillion dollar church, it will be soon. It's somehow has built its power and wealth on the backs of women while subjugating them as second class citizens. It's, I don't, it's, it's a form of indentured servitude. I don't know what to say.

John Dehlin [00:23:51] But women are, in 2022, women are second class citizens and are not allowed to be leaders in the church. They're not allowed to kind of control their own budgets, make their own decisions. They can't even hold girls camp, you know, by themselves. Women can't even bring girls on girls camp without having men chaperoning. Like it's a outrageous patriarchy. And not only, not only is that discriminatory towards women, it's self undermining to the church itself. How imagine if the full power of women were unleashed within the Mormon Church. They could have prevented all these, you know, all this abusive children. They could have prevented probably a lot of the LGBT deaths and problems.

John Dehlin [00:24:39] If women had been fully enfranchised, maybe a lot of different decisions would have been made around gender, around sexual identity, around sexual shame, around disciplinary councils. Like there's so many problems with the Mormon Church that if women had been fully enfranchised, you, you kind of, I think you have a good case to make that those problems would have never been allowed to exist and, or continue if women had been fully enfranchised. So, so step up and, and make women equal citizens would be number three.

Shelise Sola [00:25:10] Absolutely, I agree with that. I always say that it seems like the church is stuck in the 50s of this like this little housewife picturesque thing where they want them to get married at 19, have babies by 20 so that they're just right back into the system, raised the, the babies as Mormons and you just multiply and multiply. But you're right, it would be so great if women could just step up into their power and really make the difference that we know that they can make and have their voices heard. But I mean, I wonder what the leaders are so afraid of. I mean they have quotes saying like don't be too loud sisters, like don't insert your opinion, like actually telling them, sit down and don't speak. But what are they afraid of is gonna happen if they stand up and speak?

John Dehlin [00:25:54] That's a great question. And make no mistake, feminism is the issue that the brethren are most terrified of. By far, they're more terrified of feminism than they are racism, getting right on racism, being honest about its history. And I think it just has to do with power. Like, yeah, their power is rooted in their maleness. And as soon as you. As soon as you open up leadership and decision making to women, you're. You're cutting your power in half. I remember reading Martin Luther King Jr. Books, you know, during kind of my intellectual awakening, and Martin Luther King Jr. Made the quote, power never relinquishes itself voluntarily. It must be forced.

Shelise Sola [00:26:40] Wow.

John Dehlin [00:26:41] And, you know, and. And yet you think about it, giving black people the priesthood doesn't. Doesn't disempower men. It just makes more men able to have the priesthood. Right. You know, even being honest about your history allows the men to stay in power, but as soon as you allow the women in on the power franchise, you're cutting your power and influence in half. That's probably it. You can probably just stop right there. But that's probably why they do it. But also, it's the undermining of authority. If the church is on record saying priesthood is for men for 200 plus years and the Bible, you don't see a lot of female prophets or prophetesses in the Bible. For whatever reason, they're probably excluded. But for all those reasons, the church is just. That's their biggest fear is empowering women, which is so gross and unfortunate.

Shelise Sola [00:27:38] It is very unfortunate.

John Dehlin [00:27:39] Yeah.

Shelise Sola [00:27:39] Because like you said, women could make a huge difference in the church in a positive way. Oh, really?

John Dehlin [00:27:45] Yeah. I mean, just imagine taking all of your most talented and amazing people and then dividing that in half and saying, half of you need to sit down. That's what they're doing. Plus, women offer gifts and talents and perspectives that men can't.

Shelise Sola [00:28:03] Yeah, of course. I mean, if you want to talk about how it's funny, the men always say this is how you raise a family, but women, it's your job. It's like, why don't you ask the women how to raise a fit? If you're making that their priority, why don't you ask them and let them speak on it?

John Dehlin [00:28:16] Yeah, totally.

Shelise Sola [00:28:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:18] So that's the next one. Empower women. Okay, keep going.

Shelise Sola [00:28:21] Move right along.

Addressing Racism in Scripture and Doctrine

John Dehlin [00:28:22] So the church needs to fix its racism because it's not like the, the racism's in the past. Like, you know, it turns out that the Mormons, you know, worship four basic, you know, scriptures. There's the Holy Bible, there's the Book of Mormon, there's the Book of Moses and the Book of Abraham, and then the Doctrine and Covenants. And guess what, like, of those five books, which is the least racist? Can you guess?

Shelise Sola [00:28:50] I would guess the Bible.

John Dehlin [00:28:51] The Bible is the least racist. And, and you know, we've been covering this on our LDS discussion series on Mormon Stories podcast.

Shelise Sola [00:28:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:59] Because the, the, the root of Mormon racism is this stupid Curse of Cain doctrine.

Shelise Sola [00:29:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:07] That when Cain killed Abel, God put a mark on Cain, which is what the Bible Sundays. But then 18th, 19th century Christians interpreted that mark to be black skin so that they could justify the enslavement.

Shelise Sola [00:29:23] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:29:24] Of Africans. And so that's where Joseph Smith learned about the curse of Cain doctrine being black skin, which was not in the Bible. But then Joseph, like one upped the racism in the Bible because the Bible is racist. But Joseph Smith, like one up to the racism in the Bible by injecting the Curse of Cain doctrine explicitly into the Book of Moses, the Book of Abraham, and the Doctrine and Covenants. And then it's in the Book of Mormon in the form of the Lamanite curse, because, you know, we got to explain the darkness of these Lamanites and they don't look quite African and they're Jewish somehow. So how do we, how do we account for their dark skin? Because obviously they were cursed.

Shelise Sola [00:30:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:12] So we'll make them cursed because of their wickedness. And so, like, Joseph Smith is like more super racist than traditional biblical Christianity. And that's all codified in Mormon scripture.

Shelise Sola [00:30:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:25] So the Mormon Church, to become, to fix its racism problem, it needs to start with its own scripture and take out. This is blasphemy. This is heresy. Take out all the super racist parts of the Book of Mormon, Book of Moses, Book of Abraham, Doctrine and Covenants. And of course, it's never going to do that. But that just, it's like a ball and chain. The Mormon Church is ball and chain bound to its racism because it's codified in Joseph Smith's own scripture.

Shelise Sola [00:30:54] Yeah. I mean, he didn't just double down on racism. He like tripled down on racism. And yeah. Even if Mormon Church, if you're listening, even if you want to just secretly slide that stuff out and then pretend it never happened, that's still better than still actively teaching that it's part of the Scriptures. But again, that leads to the whole problem of, well, the Book of Mormon is the most correct book on the planet and it's never changing. And if you were to take something like that out, then you're saying Joseph Smith got it wrong or he translated it wrong. And then what. What does that lead to then?

John Dehlin [00:31:30] What else did he get wrong?

Shelise Sola [00:31:31] Well, especially with the, the polygamy thing, I mean, everyone's like, well, Mormons don't do that anymore. And that's very much looked down on. You could get excommunicated if you practice. But it's still in the Book of Mormon. Or is it the dnc? It's still in dnc. So how do you get around that? Yeah, just pretend it never happened.

John Dehlin [00:31:50] Yeah. And that's just fixing the scriptures. Like its leadership is still super white, Utah, Idaho, Mormon leadership, you know, and then it's taught forever. It still teaches that mixed race marriages are bad things.

Shelise Sola [00:32:06] Does it still.

John Dehlin [00:32:07] Oh, yeah. You can still find just within the past few years, you know, passages in our, you know, gospel studies manuals that basically say, you know, marry within your race kind of thing. You know, that's, that's still a teaching of the Mormon Church today. So it's got to fix all that. Clean up its curriculum, clean up all the folk doctrines, apologize for its racist past, obviously, and then start empowering people of color and all the leadership positions to have representation. And, you know, there's so much more it needs to do. So fix this racism would be the next one.

Shelise Sola [00:32:44] All right. Yeah, yeah, good. Let's. What's next?

The Church's Treatment of LGBTQ+ Members

John Dehlin [00:32:48] Okay, the next one is to fix its LGBTQ plus problem because the Mormon Church has taught for 50 plus years that homosexuality is an abomination, to quote the church. That it's a perversion.

Shelise Sola [00:33:00] Right.

John Dehlin [00:33:01] That it's, you know, like, bestiality, that it, that it comes from masturbating too much and that. And that it's, you know, it's, it's a step on the pathway towards pedophilia. Like, all these horrific things I'm saying right now are things the church has been teaching for 50 plus years.

John Dehlin [00:33:19] And not to mention encouraging celibacy for its LGBTQ plus members if they can't marry in a mixed orientation marriage, and then encouraging mixed orientation marriages where you're gay or lesbian, but you're marrying a straight guy or a straight woman, and then confining yourself to a marriage where a. You're not attracted to, to, or maybe even have aversion sexually towards the person you're married to. And then, you know, they're not getting their needs met because you're not into them.

John Dehlin [00:33:51] And then all the kids become collateral damage when 70% of these marriages end in divorce, which is a much higher divorce rate than most first marriages. Right. It's two to three times the divorce rates of first marriages traditionally. Not to mention all the, all the LGBTQ youth that feel like this life is just either be celibate or to be stuck with someone you're not attracted to for the rest of your life, you may as well die so that when you get to the other side, Heavenly Father will fix you. I say that in air quotes. And that's why we have two to three times the national average of LGBT youth death by suicide or suicide attempts because of this horrendous doctrine.

John Dehlin [00:34:33] Plus all the family rejection. We know that family rejection leads to like eight times the normal prevalence of risky drug use of risky sexual behavior. If your family rejects you.

Shelise Sola [00:34:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:48] And in Mormonism, if you're super orthodox about Mormon parent and your kid comes out as gay, it's like, you know, you follow the rules. Oh, if you're going to start dating who you shouldn't date, or even, God forbid, experimenting sexually, you're out of the house. These kids become homeless or they become rejected. And that's why we have such a epidemic of depression, anxiety, and death by suicide within Mormonism. It's, it's horrific how much death and carnage, social carnage, that's come about as a result of the Mormon Church's homophobia.

Shelise Sola [00:35:22] Yeah. And this isn't even something that's in the past, because what was the 2015 policy that directly affected children? It was put in place. And the amount of suicides in that time. Do you want to explain to our listeners who aren't familiar what that policy was in 2015?

John Dehlin [00:35:37] Yeah. So basically the church was, was the leader in fighting same sex marriage within the United States for decades. We beat evangelical Christians, which is no tough feat. We beat Catholics. Like, we were the leader. When you think about, like the early fighting of same sex marriage in Hawaii or Massachusetts or, or, you know, California prior to Prop 8, which was Prop 22, I think, like, we were behind all that. But then in 2008, after same sex marriage was legalized in California and a few other states, the church is like, no, we're not having any of that. So the Mormon church started Prop 8 and which.

John Dehlin [00:36:20] Which basically meant it spent tens of millions of dollars and countless volunteer time manning phone banks and, you know, can community canvassers to take same Sex marriage away from a, from citizens of a sovereign state, which is California. And like, ironically, one of the great ironies in American history is that that led to backlash that led to same sex marriage being legalized.

Shelise Sola [00:36:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:45] Across the country by 2015. So the church was so bum hurt, can I say that? But on your podcast, yeah, the church was so hurt and offended that same sex marriage was legalized country that it came up with this horrific policy in November of 2015 that basically said that same sex marriage was an act of apostasy that was considered a greater offense than pedophilia.

Shelise Sola [00:37:14] What?

John Dehlin [00:37:15] Rape or murder. And you're like your, your mouth is open wide and I'll explain to you why.

Shelise Sola [00:37:21] Wow.

John Dehlin [00:37:21] Yeah. In 2015 you could rape someone, you could molest a child, or you could murder someone and your excommunication was optional, depending on the judgment of your leader. But, but in 2015, the church said, we are putting same sex marriage. Now let's just be clear. The crime of same sex marriage is committing your life to the person that you love most.

John Dehlin [00:37:55] That's the crime of same sex marriage. The church declared that mandatorily an act of apostasy that requires a disciplinary council and an excommunication. While to this day there are thousands of Mormons running around who knowingly molested children but were never excommunicated. It was just kind of hush hush swept under the rug because the church never declared pedophilia an act of mandate requiring a disciplinary council and apostasy. It's optional, right? Same with rape. So, so, so they made same sex marriage an act of apostasy and mandatory excommunication. And then they even like turned it up to 11 as they say, by also saying that children of same sex married couple, legally married couples could no longer participate in full fellowship in the church.

John Dehlin [00:38:51] So they couldn't get blessed as babies, they couldn't get baptized as 8 year old children, they couldn't get the priesthood if men. And they had to wait till they were 18 to. To get baptized. Only if it gets better or worse. Only if they explicitly denounce their parents marriage before they take that plunge into baptism at age 18.

John Dehlin [00:39:17] That was literally the November 2015 exclusive exclusion policy. You know, received by revelation by the prophet seers and revelators of the Mormon Church, which meant within Mormon parlance or belief that it was God and Jesus themselves implementing this policy.

John Dehlin [00:39:35] And it took four years. But to the church's credit or I guess, yeah, the church, you know, they had the revelation saying that the Devil policy was of God. And then somehow, miraculously, God changed his mind. And after incredible backlash, massive waves of defection, horrific public relations, embarrassing outrage, sort of, you know, events, the Mormon Church received a miraculous revelation that that policy was to be undone after it was implemented by God and Jesus. So God and Jesus needed. It, needed that policy somehow for four years until it almost destroyed the church. And then God and Jesus needed to take that policy away.

Shelise Sola [00:40:22] They said, whoops, never mind. And then they even claimed that the first time wasn't a revelation. No, it was just a policy. It wasn't really of God.

John Dehlin [00:40:31] Like, no, I mean, in that case, Russell M. Nelson himself, who's the current president, prophet of the church, had publicly stated that it was received by revelation.

Shelise Sola [00:40:41] So I don't take backs.

John Dehlin [00:40:42] I don't think the church has ever claimed that that wasn't revelation.

Shelise Sola [00:40:45] It was the members.

John Dehlin [00:40:46] Yeah, new revelation. Trump's old revelation. Right? Yeah.

Shelise Sola [00:40:49] It must have just been the members that I was hearing it from. They were like, no, no, guys, that wasn't a revelation.

John Dehlin [00:40:54] No, that would not be the church's policy, because they would have to say, russell Nelson got it wrong.

Shelise Sola [00:40:58] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:40:59] Yeah.

Shelise Sola [00:40:59] Can't do that.

John Dehlin [00:41:00] So is this list too long? Did we go on too long? I mean. No, this is.

Shelise Sola [00:41:03] I mean, we're just getting started. This is great. Yeah. I mean, that. That policy was devastating. I know, to many families who lost children to suicide. There were children who were already baptized going, am I gonna get excommunicated because I'm not 18 yet? There's just so much unnecessary confusion. And for what, like you said, something that does not affect them. It's two people who are in love. They're not hurting anybody.

John Dehlin [00:41:28] Yeah.

Shelise Sola [00:41:29] Oh, it's heartbreaking.

John Dehlin [00:41:30] Yeah. Yeah. There's just so much carnage with the LGBTQ policies of the Mormon Church. I mean, all the women that married gay men, all the straight women that married gay men, because the church, you know, Bishop, told Blessed, the gay man, that if he got married to a straight woman, that his gayness would go away if he was faithful enough in Jesus. Imagine what it's like to be a straight woman married to a gay man. Like, I don't mean to shame anybody, and maybe some people make it work, but the majority of these cases is just horrific for the. For the straight spouse. Right, yeah. So anyway, just carnage. So, anyway, that's the LGBTQ issue.

Shelise Sola [00:42:07] One more thing before we move on from that. Can you explain their most recent. I guess you could call it a publicity stunt where it seemed like they were for lgbtq, but in reality, it was the opposite.

John Dehlin [00:42:19] Yeah. So to the United States Congress's credit, as the Supreme Court has started to undo a lot of historically progressive or liberal landmark cases like Roe vs Wade, the US Congress kind of saw ahead and realized, whoa, now, you know, the genie's a little bit out of the bottle. We've got tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of same sex marriages all over the country. If the Supreme Court rolls back a Burger Feld, I think is the name of the Supreme Court case, and all of a sudden takes out the federal, you know, the federal Supreme Court ruling that paved the way for same sex marriage.

John Dehlin [00:43:03] If the Supreme Court chooses to undo a Burger a Burger Feld like it undid Roe vs Wade, then are states going to be allowed? Like, if, if you were same sex married in California, but you moved Alabama, would Alabama be allowed to no longer recognize your marriage in a state you move to as a same sex married couple? I may be slaughtering this. This is just my understanding.

John Dehlin [00:43:27] And so the Congress is like, this will be a disaster for health insurance, for legal reasons, for just kids, for, for hospital rights, adoption. Things like this could be chaos if states start declining the acceptance of previously accepted same sex marriages. And so Congress was on its way to passing legislation that would honor all same sex marriages across all the different states.

John Dehlin [00:43:58] That would still allow states, by the way, to, to not allow same sex marriages if, if Obergefeld were. Were undone, but at least it would, it would mandate that same sex marriages, you know, be accepted everywhere. So when the Mormon Church realized that that was going to happen, it saw a PR opportunity and it saw an opportunity to strengthen its, its power and ability to be bigoted. And this is sounding very cynical and critical, but this is my understanding, we have an episode on this, but basically they sent their lobbyists, the Mormons sent their lobbyists down to Capitol Hill and said, we will support your legislation.

John Dehlin [00:44:38] We will. We will descend from our throne of power and money and, and magnanimously throw our support behind, you know, their graciousness of, of allowing same sex marriages to be honored in perpetuity, knowing that this is going to pass anyway. We will graciously offer our support to same sex marriages being legitimized everywhere.

John Dehlin [00:45:05] If you also bake into this legislation the right for religions to continue discriminating against LGBT people. Because what the Mormon Church wants most is to be able to kick that gay student out of BYU if they in any way act on their same sex sexuality. They want to be able to fire any.

John Dehlin [00:45:27] Any gay employee that may come out or any member of the Mormon Tabernacle Choir that may come out as gay. It wants to retain the right to fire or to evict or, or expel a gay student or a gay employee. And so what it did is it said, we'll support this legislation if you also bake into the legislation our ability to continue homophobic discriminatory policies. And then the brilliant masterstroke is, to the general membership, all they said is, see, we love gay people.

Shelise Sola [00:45:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:58] And so now, like we talked about the memory hole, now the church can sort of like wipe clean. It's decades long in the minds of the members who aren't wise enough to kind of read the fine print, oftentimes aren't savvy enough or aren't or are programmed with undue influence to be afraid or unmotivated to actually read the fine print.

Shelise Sola [00:46:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:22] To the general current membership. That's orthodox. The Mormon Church could say, see, we love gay people. We're not a bigoted church. Now you can go tell all your family and friends that the Mormon Church loves gay people and supports them. That was the PR opportunity. Wow. Their actual behaviors were strengthening their ability to discriminate against LGBTQ people. It's. It's brilliant.

Shelise Sola [00:46:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:46] If it weren't so diabolical, it would be brilliant. And maybe someone is going to challenge my interpretation of that sequence of events, but I'd love to hear a better explanation.

Shelise Sola [00:46:57] Yeah, me too. So I'm curious then, John, if you were the prophet of the Mormon Church, would you. This is a two part question. First, would you allow members of the LGBTQIA community to hold temple marriages? And second part, since you're not actually the prophet, do you think the church will ever allow temple marriages?

Temple Marriage, Missions, and Family Pressure

John Dehlin [00:47:19] So, yes, I would. I. You know, there's a problem. I guess one of the things I didn't mention on my. What I would change as a prophet, like the whole temple ordinance stuff is deeply problematic because what's implicit in Mormon priesthood authority, Mormon exclusive truth claims and Mormon ordinances, what's implicit or explicit in all of that, is that a Mormon baptism counts in the eyes of God. But any other Christian baptism or non Christian ordinance that tries to be like a baptism is illegitimate in the eyes of God. That's. That's sort of like the value proposition of Mormon priesthood authority. The Catholic baptisms don't count.

John Dehlin [00:48:03] Lutheran or Presbyterian baptisms don't count. And same for marriages in Mormon church teachings, the only marriage that exists in heaven, the only Legitimate marriage that exists in heaven is a Mormon marriage solemnized in a Mormon temple. And that's a offensive and outrageous teaching by any standard. And so if we're, if, if I'm the prophet and we're making changes in the Mormon Church, we're starting a little bit upstream to basically say no, God accepts, if there's a God at all. God doesn't tear up families. God doesn't require a certain marriage by a certain group of white men in Utah or Idaho in a certain location of real estate owned by a trillion dollar corporate mega church like that.

John Dehlin [00:48:54] That's the only type of marriage that God approves of. Like, no. So like, I think I would probably just say there's no such thing as eternal marriage in a Mormon sense. If you want to get married in the Mormon temple, you can get married. There's, but anyone can get married there. And a Mormon marriage is no better than any other marriage. And by the way, if you choose to not get married but you love each other and are respectful to each other, that's great too. Like I would do some cleaning up upstream. Yeah, so I guess that would make it so. Yes, any, any same sex couple could get married in the Mormon Temple.

Shelise Sola [00:49:32] Yeah, I really like with any other couple. So you're, you're kind of getting rid of temple marriage in general. The idea that if you don't get married in the temple, you can't be with your spouse or yeah, getting married

John Dehlin [00:49:42] the temple is fine, but claiming that only a Mormon marriage in a Mormon temple is legitimate in the eyes of God is deeply offensive.

Shelise Sola [00:49:51] Yeah, right.

John Dehlin [00:49:52] Yeah, it's, it's horrible. I mean, and then, but, but then temple work is, is its own problem.

Shelise Sola [00:49:57] I was just going to get to that. So I'm so glad that you get, go continue.

John Dehlin [00:50:01] Yeah, like just this idea, like Joseph Smith reads some passage in the New Testament about like baptisms for the dead and he's like, what does that mean? Oh, I know what it means. It means that everybody needs a Mormon baptism and if they didn't get it while they're alive, then we'll, we'll get it when you're dead. And so the fact that Mormons, Mormon youth, Mormon adults spend hours each week, aggregate of tens, if not hundreds of thousands of hours each week or each year going to Mormon temples to get baptized in the name of some person in China and some person in Mexico because God requires that the billions and billions and billions of people who have lived on this planet since the beginning of time all need a Mormon Baptism to be able to go to heaven.

John Dehlin [00:50:48] Like, what an uncreative, you know, ridiculously pharisaical God to require. Instead of, like, all the Mormons who have extra time and money on their hands, like teaching literacy to people who can't read, cleaning up the water, getting clean water to pueblos and towns that need clean water, like fighting abusive children, like fighting poverty and war. Instead of all the human hours that could be spent actually turning this problematic planet into a healthier, happier place for its citizens, its members are going to spend their leisure time, their free time, going to the local temple and getting baptized in 20, 30, 50 times for Jose and Maria, who didn't ask for it, who didn't ask for it.

John Dehlin [00:51:39] Or Holocaust survivors. Like, how offensive is that? Baptizing hollow, like, baptizing Holocaust victims Mormon. Because there's an assumption that these people who died for their faith are going to somehow want to be Mormon in the afterlife. So we've got to get their baptisms. I mean, how insulting. But also, what a phenomenal, catastrophic waste of time and energy and resources to be spending a third of our time as Mormons doing these stupid. And it's super rude, but it's outrageous when you think about poverty, war and injustice on this planet, that that's how money and time is being spent.

Shelise Sola [00:52:19] Right?

John Dehlin [00:52:20] So I'm getting rid of all the proxy work for the dead. As Mormon prophet, I'm getting rid of all proxy work for the dead.

Shelise Sola [00:52:26] I think that's a great idea. I actually talked about it with my mom in one of our episodes where she was, yeah, I tried to go to the temple. And if I didn't go to the temple, I felt guilty. But every single time I went. She has three kids. She was just stressed the whole time, like, are my kids okay? What if they're trying to reach me?

Shelise Sola [00:52:43] Busy doing temple work instead of actually being the parent that she's wanting to be. Because all of her time is going towards this. And for what? And I mean, credit to these members and everything that we say. This is a little caveat disclaimer here. Everything that we're talking about. This is not a direct attack on the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. We love them, we respect them, we just want them to be healthy and happy. And so when we talk about this temple work thing, we. We know that you're doing it with the best of intentions and you're doing it hoping that the person that you're baptizing is getting something special in heaven because of your Time and effort and sacrifice.

Shelise Sola [00:53:20] So just wanted to throw that out there. But yes, I agree with you, John. Also, what, what kind of God would expect, expect. How many active Mormons are there? Like 6 million, 4 million to do the work of billions of people who have passed away and will continue to be born. And I'm telling you, I. So I had my records removed. If someone tries to baptize me when I'm dead, I will haunt you. I do not want it. These people didn't ask for it. They don't want it. Spend your time doing other things. Be with your families.

John Dehlin [00:53:49] Well, there's just so much pain and suffering in the world, so many problems. This, that, that, like Jesus. Even if, if you don't believe in Jesus or if you do like Jesus said, you know, take no thought for tomorrow, for the evil of today is sufficient. Something like that. I think Jesus said something like that. It's basic Buddhism 101. It's like be in the present moment.

Shelise Sola [00:54:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:09] There's so much need and pain and suffering all around you. The Mormon Church could take all its time, money and resources and just focus on all the need currently in the earth today and it could never, it could never meet all the needs. So why focus on the past in the future?

Shelise Sola [00:54:27] Yeah, I agree. And just the same as the church didn't allow black people to hold the priest and go to the temple and changed it. Do you think in the future they will have to or be forced to, or go under, accept and allow LGBTQ marriages in the temple?

John Dehlin [00:54:42] Yeah, probably like 30, 30 or 40 years from now. But I mean, it will, by that point it will be a totally different church. Like it's a dying church now. Yeah, it'll really be a dying church then because at that point there's nothing, no original doctrine. Yeah. It'll just, it will cease to be the church that it started to be and people won't. And that's the thing. I've tried to create secular community after leaving Mormonism because I, I had such a great experience as a Mormon and I really love community. And I, I see one of the biggest needs for people leaving cults, leaving high demand religions being finding friends and community because they're usually ostracized from their families in their community. Like, I've tried to create community and it turns out that exclusive truth claims, shame, and, you know, threats or promises for the afterlife are really powerful motivators for creating community.

Shelise Sola [00:55:37] Right, right.

John Dehlin [00:55:38] But as soon as you take away the exclusive truth claims, the prophetic connections to a Deity. Allegedly. And then all the shame and the guilt and, and, and all that stuff. As soon as you neuter the church, people are going to show up and set up chairs and give 10 of their income and spend two years of their lives volunteering.

Shelise Sola [00:55:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:56] To paying, paying to be, you know, Mormon missionaries pay.

Shelise Sola [00:56:01] Right.

John Dehlin [00:56:01] To be a two year salesperson for the Mormon Church. That's brilliant, Mark, super brilliant. Come up with this. But, but the way they came up with it is by having guilt, shame, exclusive truth claims, claiming to be the voice, you know, the literally the voices of God in Jesus. That, that's, that's the secret sauce that binds people's eternal commitments to the church. So once you lose that, the church is gonna just be in freefall. It's kind of already in freefall. It's gonna even be worse than freefall.

Shelise Sola [00:56:34] Yeah, yeah. If you were the prophet, would you do away with missionaries?

John Dehlin [00:56:38] I mean, I, I, I loved my mission. Like I, I had, yeah. Like I had an abusive, psychologically abusive mission president and I was, you know, like the, the, the cause of what we were doing was deeply problematic for all the reasons we've already mentioned. We're basically teaching a whitewashed, overly simplified version of Mormon doctrine in history to colonize, culturally colonize, you know, Latin Americans. In my case, like there's a million things that's, that are wrong with that.

John Dehlin [00:57:13] But I, I do think that for people in poverty, being connected to a super wealthy trillion dollar organization in another country where you get relational opportunities, educational opportunities, even financial opportunities, how can that not be beneficial to at least some of the people that join the church? So I did see people's quality of life, socioeconomic status improve as a result of joining the church. So that, that's, that's good. But just more importantly, I learned leadership, I learned communication skills, I learned self motivation, I learned discipline, I learned to work hard and to face rejection and, and just I got a cultural experience where I learned a second language and spent two years of my life trying to be in the service of other people.

John Dehlin [00:58:03] What's not amazing about all of that, you know what I mean? So I, there's a big part of me that wishes my kids would have had that opportunity. Unfortunately, the church kicked me out before my kids were ever of mission age. I guess I should say. Fortunately not. Unfortunately.

Shelise Sola [00:58:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:58:19] For different reasons. But I mean, well, suffice it to say I still believe in the mission experience just being a missionary for actual truth and actual injustice and poverty. So I wouldn't get rid of the missionary program. But I would find a way to retool it so that when the missionaries are going to serve their mission, they're actually addressing poverty, war, and injustice and not enriching an already grossly wealthy organization. That's a business masquerading as a church these days. Is that too harsh? No. Did I, Did I. Did I go too far?

Shelise Sola [00:58:57] No.

John Dehlin [00:58:58] Okay.

Shelise Sola [00:58:58] I didn't think you went too far.

John Dehlin [00:58:59] You sure?

Shelise Sola [00:59:00] Yeah. Yeah, I'm sure. I do think that that would be a positive thing because there are mission service missions and other churches that are vastly helpful. So maybe we just shift instead of trying to bring people into this church under false pretenses and not giving them all the information. Maybe the mission field is going out and building buildings for people, building schools, helping with food, building agriculture structures. Anything that you can do to actually help the person. Instead of say, you have to join our church or you won't be with your family and give us your money.

John Dehlin [00:59:33] Yeah, yeah. And don't masturbate or we're going to make you feel like you're a horrible person.

Shelise Sola [00:59:39] Yeah. So I think the bones are there, but it does need to drastically shift and change and give the missionaries more support to give them access to psychological help if they need it. Because so many missionaries come home depressed and they're just told to, you know, pull your boots up and go do God's work, and they're struggling and they. They don't have any resources. So beefing that side up a bit and then beefing up the side of the actual service I think would be really beneficial.

John Dehlin [01:00:05] You should be the next prophet, not me.

Shelise Sola [01:00:06] Oh, my goodness.

John Dehlin [01:00:07] Yeah, sure.

Shelise Sola [01:00:08] The first woman prophet.

John Dehlin [01:00:09] I'm in. I'm in. I'd vote for you. Wait, is that how profits work? I'd vote for you.

Shelise Sola [01:00:13] Can you sustain me? Thank you. Thanks, John. Okay, so I favor Manifest by the. By the like, sign everyone in the rooms, any post. It's official.

John Dehlin [01:00:24] Any post. Okay, you're in.

Shelise Sola [01:00:26] Perfect. Yeah, I think we'd be a great team. So I kind of hijacked your list as. Are there any more that you want to go?

John Dehlin [01:00:32] Oh, boy. Wow. Yeah, well, I mean, I could go on forever. I do think that another huge source of pain and suffering and family destruction that the Mormon Church has caused is by tearing lives and families apart when people lose their faith. Unless you've got familial or social or monetary forces causing your confirmation bias and motivated reasoning to be firing on all cylinders, which is every orthodox Mormon in existence. Unless you've got that, if if anyone just steps aside from that and neutrally and objectively looks at the Mormon Church's truth claims, it's obviously, it's obviously a fraud. It's obviously, Joseph Smith was obviously a charlatan who was also a sexual predator.

John Dehlin [01:01:23] There's literally zero possible interpretations if you look at the evidence objectively. And I, and I, I know I'm using very strong words. I've been doing this 20 plus years. I stand by what I just said. Now that doesn't mean super brilliant people don't find a way to still believe. We've still got Patrick Mason and Richard Bushman and Terrell and Fiona Givens and, you know, hundreds of thousands, if not millions of really smart Mormons who still believe. But again, my argument is it's because of social pressure, it's because of monetary pressure, it's because of familial pressure. And they would be deeply offended at this assertion. But I stand by it.

John Dehlin [01:02:02] And so, and they're all, there might be psychological binding forces too, like real vulnerabilities that just lead them to feel like they need a high demand religion or they need Mormonism to kind of keep their psychological wheels on the wagon. But I think those four things are, account for 90% of devout Orthodox Mormonism in the face of the evidence. I mean, there's a whole chunk of Mormons that if they could just see the evidence, they'd walk away today.

Shelise Sola [01:02:31] Right.

John Dehlin [01:02:31] But because they live in such a bubble, a protected bubble, where the church, you know, puts the fear of Heavenly Father into them that they not learn the truth about the church. They're never going to learn it. Right, right.

Shelise Sola [01:02:43] It's too scary.

John Dehlin [01:02:44] Yeah. And, and they've been threatened and made. Yeah. To fear it. So anyway, what I'm saying is, is that the church has made it horrific for people who start to question the church. And when you start to question Mormonism, you, you potentially can lose your spouse, you can lose the love and esteem of your parents, you can lose the love and esteem of your children, you can be disinherited by your parents or your grandparents, you can lose your job, you can lose your friends, you can lose your community.

John Dehlin [01:03:19] And I like to say that you could literally win the Nobel Peace Prize and cure cancer. But if you leave the Mormon Church, you would be viewed as a disappointment by your parents. And that's, I'm not exaggerating fact. And so the amount of carnage, individual carnage, depression, anxiety, suicidality over just losing your faith in Mormonism or the amount of divorces, family destruction, family Division is. Is infinite. It's incalculable.

John Dehlin [01:03:51] And so the Mormon Church has been horrific at punishing people who lose their faith. And I learned many, many years ago the definition, one definition of a cult. Maybe you've heard this is any institution that won't let you leave with your dignity intact.

Shelise Sola [01:04:06] Right.

John Dehlin [01:04:07] And there's no way to leave Mormonism with your dignity intact. We all know the tropes and the stereotypes that orthodox Mormons put on anyone who's lost their faith. Pop quiz. Shalice, what are some of the tropes of why people leave the church?

Shelise Sola [01:04:22] Oh, why people leave the church?

John Dehlin [01:04:23] Why do people.

Shelise Sola [01:04:23] Why do they just left because they wanted to sin.

John Dehlin [01:04:26] Wanted to sin. You wanted to drink beer. Right.

Shelise Sola [01:04:27] Or they left because they were offended.

John Dehlin [01:04:29] They were offended.

Shelise Sola [01:04:30] Or they left because they never really had a testimony.

John Dehlin [01:04:32] Exactly. They're a testimony to begin with. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or they looked at porn. Right. Or they, you know, wanted to have sex.

Shelise Sola [01:04:40] Or the most dangerous one, they left because they were led by Satan.

John Dehlin [01:04:43] Yeah, yeah.

Shelise Sola [01:04:44] How's that for a judge?

John Dehlin [01:04:45] Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So these are all just a subset of the total number of. Of, you know, tropes or stereotypes that orthodox Mormons put on people who leave the church as a way to protect their own faith, because they certainly can't go. Well, Shalice left because she was horribly mistreated by her leaders and shamed by the community and experienced all sorts of horrific abuse and is intelligent and emotionally and psychologically mature and realized that this was problematic and discriminatory and harmful for innumerable classes of marginalized groups. And so she gained her power by being intelligent and, and. And gained her strength by extricating herself from a very difficult, you know, organization to extricate yourself from. Paid a huge price. Followed the hero's journey and become a. Became a strong, empowered, healthy woman. Said no orthodox Mormon ever about you. Right, right. Shelley's like, that's not the narrative.

Shelise Sola [01:06:01] I don't think so.

John Dehlin [01:06:02] They found their power and wisdom and left the church. That never. Has that ever been said ever?

Shelise Sola [01:06:06] I don't think so.

John Dehlin [01:06:07] No, no, it's never said. So the church needs to just say to all the membership, there are lots of reasonable reasons to leave the Mormon Church, and it's okay to believe it if you want to, but lots of people leave for lots of good reasons, and they are to be loved and maybe even respected a little bit more for leaving simply because it's such a difficult, painful, excruciating and courageous act to leave any high demand religion but especially to leave the Mormon Church. So the church needs to just completely change its narrative, and it needs to tell spouses, parents, children, siblings, friends, community members, you need to love extra people who leave the Mormon Church because they need your love more. And by the way, ask them why they left. Show real empathy.

Shelise Sola [01:07:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:00] And learn about why they left, because that will help you gain the informed consent that we never had the courage or the respect to offer you.

Shelise Sola [01:07:09] Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:07:10] You gotta be ranty. I think I had too much coffee this morning.

Shelise Sola [01:07:13] It's great.

John Dehlin [01:07:14] This is Caffeinated John. You. You were able to extricate Caffeinated John.

Shelise Sola [01:07:18] I. I am honored that I am experiencing Caffeinated John, and so are our listeners. I think the issue is it's not just a passive, they actively teach people to create this us versus them mentality. They actively teach people, oh, they're just lazy learners. Oh, they just never were faithful enough. Oh, we're separating the sheep. You know, they said they sent letters home to people during COVID saying people will fall away, but the strong ones will stay. They are actively manipulating people into thinking, oh, well, yeah, I am better than that person. Oh, yeah, I. I do have a right to judge them and. And say bad things about them.

Shelise Sola [01:07:56] And that's just. It's. People's own family are saying that, and that's what's so difficult. It's not just them thinking, oh, well, just a random person out there left the church, and I'm angry or I'm judging them. It's. I'm judging my brother. I'm judging my sister. I'm judging my mother, and it just tears families apart. It doesn't help anyone.

John Dehlin [01:08:18] You're starting to get the feels.

Shelise Sola [01:08:19] I'm getting all the feels. I have big opinions.

John Dehlin [01:08:22] John, have you shed a tear on your podcast yet? I haven't.

Shelise Sola [01:08:24] I have. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:25] You have.

Shelise Sola [01:08:25] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:08:26] Okay.

Shelise Sola [01:08:26] Yeah. Good times.

John Dehlin [01:08:27] Well, that's good. You're. You're emotionally and psychologically connected because the pain is real. Like, I talk about it passionately, but. But the degree to which people have been shut off, shunned, cut off from marriages, from their own children, from their own parents. It's. It's its own set of travesties.

Shelise Sola [01:08:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:48] That is outrageous. And it's. It's. You know, there's so much carnage with the racism, the sexism, the homophobia that this is, like, fourth on the list of, like, severity. But it's real and it's significant.

Shelise Sola [01:09:02] Yeah. Anything else on the list?

John Dehlin [01:09:05] We're still going. Okay, well, if Our viewers and listeners aren't tired yet. Yeah. I'll say two more things. The next one is sexual shame and purity culture.

Sexual Shame and Purity Culture in Mormonism

Shelise Sola [01:09:15] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:09:16] Like, I, I, I realized in the past few years that sexual shame is literally like, the secret. You know how Coca Cola has, like, a secret ingredient, allegedly, that kind of makes Coca Cola, like, supposedly better than all the other colas. Like, Mormonism's secret ingredient is sexual shame. Because the, the basic premise of Christianity, no offense, Christians. Okay, I'll say this. The basic premise of Mormon Christianity, okay, and of other certain, other forms of Christianity is that we're all broken. We're all fallen. We're all despicable, worthless, dirty, evil creatures.

Shelise Sola [01:09:53] The natural man.

John Dehlin [01:09:54] Yeah. The natural man.

Shelise Sola [01:09:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:09:55] This is basic Calvinist Christianity that because we're broken and fallen and despicable, then we need a savior to be punished and die for our sins, to make up as, like, a righteous lamb to the slaughter for all of our horrific evil. That that's in our core nature. Now, of course, this is fundamentally flawed from the start because we're God's creation. So if God literally created us to be despicable, deplorable, you know, treacherous wretches of, of, of humanity, then why did God make us this way and then have to punish and kill his own child to then atone for or make up for our wretchedness that he created?

John Dehlin [01:10:41] Like, that's just effed up to begin with. Not to mention that someone innocent is going to suffer and die. Like, that's just like if, if God, if Mormon God, if Mormon heavenly father were an actual parent, he would be put in prison for child abuse and neglect, right?

Shelise Sola [01:11:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:00] Like, that'd be torturous.

Shelise Sola [01:11:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:02] To hold that over your children. Like, I made you a horrific person, so now I'm gonna go kill someone else who's innocent so that then you can forever feel indebted to me or to that dead person. And so that you'll do everything I say for the rest of your life. You owe me. And you're indentured to me and this other dead person for the rest of your life because I made you deplorable to begin with. Like who? Like, that's. But that's the premise of Mormon Christianity. And so, so sexual shame is you, you got to pick a sin that's, like, pervasive. Right. You can't pick, like, oh, I don't know, stealing.

Shelise Sola [01:11:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:45] As, like, the core thing.

Shelise Sola [01:11:47] Because not everyone steals.

John Dehlin [01:11:48] Yeah. Because, like, like a ton of people don't. Don't steal.

Shelise Sola [01:11:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:51] Right. Like it's a minority that's like really into ste.

Shelise Sola [01:11:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:54] So you got to pick, you got to go bigger. You got to pick a sin that's like way more pervasive. What's more pervasive than like sex? I mean, water drinking, maybe eating. Like you got to pick something that like, you know, you won't die if you stop for a while.

Shelise Sola [01:12:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:12:10] But that you're going to do eventually, but you're going to do it at least frequently enough to where you can get on that shame treadmill for the rest of your life. So they, they couldn't do sleep, they couldn't do food, they couldn't do water. Right. They couldn't do breathing. So like, what's like one level up on Maslow's hierarchy of needs? Sex. Yeah. Or sexual stimulation or gratification. And that's literally what they've locked themselves onto. So from the point that you're like eight years old and exploring yourself or you're a four year old girl getting a dress, it's like, well, don't have sleep, you know, don't have a sleeveless dress because you're showing your shoulders as a four year old girl and you're going to make some weird perverted man have bad thoughts.

Shelise Sola [01:12:58] So that's on you.

John Dehlin [01:12:59] Little girls. Make sure you dress modestly, make sure your skirts long so that some man doesn't have a bad thought. And so girls are carrying already before they're even going through puberty. They're already carrying men's sexual, you know, problems on their shoulders.

Shelise Sola [01:13:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:18] And then youth, as soon as they start to have sexual awakenings, whether it's prepubescent or of course, when, when the hormones start raging in adolescence, as soon as you touch yourself, as soon as you touch someone else's private parts, as soon as you do what is, by any other standard would be completely healthy, which is to understand, come to know your own sexuality and then start to gain proper sexual education such that you can explore in healthy ways sexually in a, in a, in a healthy way.

Shelise Sola [01:13:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:50] All that's shut down. You're not given any education and you're just shamed and made to feel horrific about ever touching yourself, about ever touching somebody else, about ever having a thought, even having a sexual thought. Heaven forbid. Like, like talk about pervasiveness. Who hasn't had a sexual thought? But that's in Mormonism, like having the sexual thought have. Committing adultery in your mind is like one step away from actually committing adultery, not to mention committing a Sexual transgression is like next to what?

Shelise Sola [01:14:23] Next to murder?

John Dehlin [01:14:24] Next to murder. So you just amp up the guilt and shame on a sin that's literally prolific universal a behavior or thoughts or feelings that are literally universal. We're literally wired as mammals to have these thoughts and feelings and to procreate. So let's, let's, let's harness that onto the shame cycle and let's use it to make all the Mormons feel infinitely shameful about themselves and indebted to the church as the only way that they're going to ever be rescued from this horrible sin and transgression and carnality that they're wallowing in, that of course, God made them to wallow in. But that's, you know, not mentioned.

John Dehlin [01:15:14] And so, and so, yeah, so whether it's modesty culture, rape culture, whether it's the law of chastity, prohibiting masturbation, not giving proper sex education, and then, you know, virginity culture that then leads to people getting married way too young without the education, marrying people they probably have no business marrying at an age way too young, and then sort of saddling young married couples with literally a lifetime of sexual dysfunction. And then all the pornography, guilt and shame that's, that's plugged into all those different channels.

John Dehlin [01:15:53] Surprise, surprise. Mormons, by some accounts, lead the nation in pornography use per capita sexual abuse of children per capita. Yeah, like just so much sexual dysfunction within Mormonism. And that's what you get when you, when you have a culture where sexuality is healthy, sexuality is never taught, and then it's, it's demonized and pathologized in every single possible way.

John Dehlin [01:16:19] And so the Mormon Church needs to throw out its law of chastity. It needs to throw out its purity culture, throw out its modesty standards. And by the way, that doesn't mean just like don't teach. What it does mean is teach proper sex education like the Unitarian Universalists, like the Our Whole Lives curriculum that the Unitarian Universalist Church teaches its youth. It means teaching consent. It means teaching sex ed, sexual health.

John Dehlin [01:16:49] You know, what is rape? What is assault? What is abuse? What is consent? What is healthy sexuality? What is respect? What is self respect? Self, self, knowledge, other knowledge, Teach all that and then nurture. You're probably going to get less, you're probably going to get less unhealthy sexual exploration. If you do that, you'll probably have less unwanted pregnancies, less abortions, and just happy healthier lives and happy, healthier marriages.

John Dehlin [01:17:21] But you can't get it all rid of that because it's core to your business model, it's core to your shame model, that then keeps everybody bound to your church. That's why the church doesn't do what I would do if they let me.

Shelise Sola [01:17:36] That's why they will never make you profit. Yeah. This is definitely one of my biggest problems with the church and why I have so many episodes on it. We did two episodes with Natasha. They were just incredible. She was talking about things that should be normal, that should not be shamed. And it's so important that youth and adults have this information because it can change your life and it can help you realize, oh, I am human. I'm not something that's dirty and sinful and gross and the whole purity thing and the chastity thing and the virtue thing and all those disgusting virtue lessons. That just gets me so angry.

Shelise Sola [01:18:13] The licked cupcake, the chewed gum. You're teaching women that, you know, this is an object lesson. You are the object. We are thinking of you women as objects. And your only purpose as an object is to push out babies somehow, after you've somehow figured out how to have babies. That's your only thing in life, and that's what you have to be focused on. But we're not going to tell you how to actually have babies. We're just going to tell you to not have them until you have to have all of them. It makes no sense.

John Dehlin [01:18:40] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's. This is one of the. And again, like. Like, we're like eight topics in. And this is one of the worst things about Mormonism. Right. Isn't that amazing? Yeah, we're like eight topics in, and then we're still at something super pervasive and horrific.

Shelise Sola [01:18:55] Yeah, there's a lot to talk about.

John Dehlin [01:18:57] You think the intensity would. Would dial down as we get farther down the list. And I. I don't think this is a less intense issue. Like, it's like, I know there are Mormon youth and even adults that. That die by suicide because of not being able to stop masturbating or not being able to stop looking at pornography. Like, there are Mormon wives or husbands that, like, view their pornography. Viewing spouses as despicable humans.

Shelise Sola [01:19:23] Right.

John Dehlin [01:19:23] Who can't. Who are addicts.

Shelise Sola [01:19:26] Right.

John Dehlin [01:19:26] Who can't, you know, quit their addictions of, like, masturbating once every three weeks. Like, that is. That is a real. This is tearing families and lives apart.

Shelise Sola [01:19:36] Heart.

John Dehlin [01:19:36] It's a real. It's carnage. It's social carnage. Yeah, yeah.

Shelise Sola [01:19:40] So viewers, if you want to learn more about is masturbation healthy? Definitely. Check out Natasha Helfer. She goes into depth and she has done so much research on how masturbation is a very healthy and normative behavior, even from infancy. So go check that out. Anything else, John?

Financial Transparency and Remaining Concerns

John Dehlin [01:19:56] Well, I mean I'll just, I'll just give like the miscellaneous. There are a few more that are huge that I kind of made reference to. Like, like the fact that Mormon ordinances are tied to tithe paying. So like the church has a huge problem with money. Let's just group it in the money problem. So number one, they're not transparent in their finances. They used to be. In the late 1950s, the church was still transparent in its finances, but at some point it wanted to deficit spend and get into a bunch of debt. So in the late 1950s, early 1960s, the church made its finances private and then started spending a, a boatload of money that it didn't have, building chapels all over the world and building temples and, and, and it turned out well financially for the church.

John Dehlin [01:20:37] But since then the church has been completely non transparent. Like I run a 501c3 nonprofit. I publish my finances every single year in a 990 that I file with the federal government. Why? Because the federal government says, look, if you're going to get a tax break, then you need to be transparent your finances so that people don't know, so people know if you're defrauding them and so that there's basic transparency into how you spend your money because it's a public service. So why in the holy heck would non profits be required to be transparent in their finances, but religions aren't. Yeah, like religions are nonprofits.

John Dehlin [01:21:16] And why should religions have an exclusion for being transparent in their finances? So I would make the Mormon church be transparent in its finances, which would reveal that it's a trillion dollar multinational mega corporation that doesn't need anyone's money,

Shelise Sola [01:21:32] that doesn't need missionaries to pay to work for them.

John Dehlin [01:21:35] No, like there's a gazillion things that members don't need to be putting up their time and money for. But, but that's, that's the first problem that the church, until it was exposed as having 120 million, $120 billion of stocks and bonds and real estate and cash and municipalities and real, you know, like until it was exposed as having secret assets approaching $500 billion, the church was keeping all that secret from its members.

Shelise Sola [01:22:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:22:09] So that, that would change and then the church would stop requiring 10% of its membership, especially if it's poor people, like if the rich people want to pay 10% but like optional, why, why are, why are Panamanians and, and Filipinos told in the Mormon Church that they should pay their tithing before they buy shoes for themselves? And I'm not making that up. There's a, there's a tithing video that I released recently that basically is all the instances of Mormon Church leaders telling people, poor people in developing countries to pay their tithing before they buy food or shoes. I am not exaggerating. Like, so, like that's horrific.

John Dehlin [01:22:52] And then 10%'s a lot of money. And then also what the Mormon Church has done that's even more diabolical is that they've tied these most sacred Mormon temple rituals that we've already kind of denounced in this episode. They've tied Mormon marriage, the ability to attend a Mormon wedding to your paying of your 10 of your income. So if I'm a Mormon, dad, dad. And I'm, I have a, you know, a 20 year old daughter and she goes to BYU and I lose my faith, so I don't want to pay tithing anymore. But then my 20 year old daughter, still at BYU, she finds her return missionary, they decide to get married and I'm not paying my tithing.

John Dehlin [01:23:30] I, as a parent who raised this child, is not allowed to attend the wedding of my own child in 2022. In modern Mormonism, non believing, non tithe paying Mormon parents are excluded from the weddings of their own children. Not making this up. And it's not just weddings. It's attending and attending endowment ceremonies, ceilings, all sorts of these most sacred Mormon family events. Sort of entrance into the temple is viewed by orthodox Mormons as worthiness. It means you're not cheating on your spouse. It means you're not looking at pornography. It means you're obeying all the commandments. So what's the inverse of that? If you're excluded from a Mormon temple, what does every orthodox Mormon assume about you?

Shelise Sola [01:24:17] That you're doing all those things, that you're a sinner, that you're not worthy enough, you're doing something wrong, Cheating on

John Dehlin [01:24:22] your spouse, that you're looking at porn?

Shelise Sola [01:24:24] Let's assume the worst.

John Dehlin [01:24:25] Yeah. So not only are you excluded from the most sacred holy or important familial ordinances within the church, but you're shamed by the entire set of family members and general membership. You're shamed because these whisper campaigns go around about why was he kept from the temple? Because obviously the church isn't going to go. It's because he didn't give us 10%. So we're keeping him out of the temple. They just keep it ambiguous. So that leaves all the members to assume that you're not attending the temple because you're addicted to porn and cheating on your spouse.

Shelise Sola [01:24:57] Or it could be something as simple as drinking coffee.

John Dehlin [01:25:00] Yeah. Oh yeah.

Shelise Sola [01:25:01] Or having a shot on the weekend.

John Dehlin [01:25:02] How outrageous is that? That if I drink coffee in 2022, I'm not allowed to attend my own son's wedding in a Mormon temple?

Shelise Sola [01:25:10] Or you could just lie about it and then feel guilty.

John Dehlin [01:25:12] Yeah, exactly. Sounds like you did you do that one time. No, you never did. Okay.

Shelise Sola [01:25:16] No, I was honest. And I missed both my best friend's weddings.

John Dehlin [01:25:19] Yeah, no, but, but the Mormon Church does have a culture of, of teaching and encouraging dishonesty by, by forcing members to lie.

Shelise Sola [01:25:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:25:29] So that they're not shamed and excluded from their most holy ordinances. So I would change that whole tying, you know, 10% of your income to these most sacred holy temple rituals because it really is, it's an indulgence. It's extortion. It's pay for play. It's, it's just unethical on every possible level. Not to mention taking advantage of the poor and causing all these people to pay money when the church doesn't need it. Like literally, you take what $150 billion that the church has right now. 7% interest on $150 billion easily pays the 8 or 9 billion dollar annual budget that the church has. The church, the Mormon Church does not need your money.

John Dehlin [01:26:16] I don't care who you are in 2022 or beyond. The Mormon Church is a trillion. It's, it's a five, it's at least a 500 billion dollar church. That's if not already a trillion dollar church, it will be in the next seven years.

John Dehlin [01:26:31] So the Mormon Church doesn't need your money. Keep your money. Give it to worthy charitable causes or to your own family, your friends in need. Don't give the Mormon Church your money. Yeah, so, yeah, so, so that's. So yeah, so that, that takes care of financial transparency, requiring 10% tithing and tying temple work to people giving the church money. Yeah, I mean that's, that's quite the list.

Shelise Sola [01:27:00] And there's probably more. And we could go on for 10 hours. So yeah, if John Dehlin or the prophet of the Mormon Church or the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, these are all the things that we would want to change and implement. So you, as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, can happier, healthier, more well rounded, better life and. And raise your children in something that you're really proud of and something that will help them become productive members of society and happy and healthy and all the things that you want for your children.

John Dehlin [01:27:29] You're so good at this.

Shelise Sola [01:27:30] Oh, thanks, John.

John Dehlin [01:27:31] Have you been doing this a year? Like, how long you been doing this? Like, three months. Like, how long?

Shelise Sola [01:27:35] My podcast has been going for five months.

John Dehlin [01:27:38] You are freaking amazing. Chalice. Seriously.

Shelise Sola [01:27:41] That is high praise, John.

John Dehlin [01:27:42] Thank you. No, you do. You're good.

Shelise Sola [01:27:43] She's good, Jonathan.

John Dehlin [01:27:46] She's no slouch. Yeah.

Surprising Stories from Years of Interviewing

Shelise Sola [01:27:49] All right, so, John, before we go, I have. Man, I just have so many questions that I want to ask John here because, you know, I've been following your podcast for a while, and here's just a few, and let's just see how many we can get through. What are the most shocking things that you've ever heard in your interviews?

John Dehlin [01:28:11] Wow.

Shelise Sola [01:28:13] Things that have really stood out to you.

John Dehlin [01:28:15] Yeah, I mean, we've covered, like, if people are kind of like, john, you're off the chain. Like, you're. You're overly exuberant, you're angry. You're, like, way too passionate. What, you know, what people need to understand is that my passion comes from spending 20 years, two decades, swimming in these waters.

Shelise Sola [01:28:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:28:36] So I know parents who have lost their children to death by suicide. I have close family and friends who have been suicidal because of their LGBTQ nature. I've seen marriages torn apart, and I've seen grandparents estranged from their own grandkids. And, you know, I've seen so much horrific stuff. I've seen people, you know, I've seen wives shame their husbands into sleeping on the sofa or. Or kicking them out of the house because they masturbated once every three weeks, and then the kids being estranged from their parents. Like, I've seen so much horrific carnage that when I am perceived to be angry or overly passionate, it's because I have corresponded with tens of thousands of Mormons who have lived this carnage that you and I have been now talking about for the past, I don't know, hour, hour and a half.

John Dehlin [01:29:40] So that's where my passion comes from. So having said that, all this stuff that we've been talking about, I've. I've seen in excess. So having said that, what are some interesting things on Mormon Stories podcast? One of the most shocking things that I. I learned on Mormon Stories podcast was about the second anointing, have you. I learned it.

Shelise Sola [01:30:06] I learned it from you.

John Dehlin [01:30:07] Oh, yeah?

Shelise Sola [01:30:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:08] Have you covered it on your podcast?

Shelise Sola [01:30:09] No, I haven't.

John Dehlin [01:30:10] Okay. Yeah. So, like, it's always crazy when, when you've been a Mormon your whole life, for decades, going to byu, going to gazillion hours of church, learning everything you can, and then you learn something completely new that's incredibly shocking and even revolting.

Shelise Sola [01:30:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:29] That was kept from you.

Shelise Sola [01:30:30] You.

John Dehlin [01:30:30] And the second anointing is just that. So orthodox Mormons, or never Mormons, if you don't know, there's a super secret temple ordinance called the second anointing, which has been around since the time of Joseph Smith. And it's basically, basically how it happens is you're called, you know, by your stake president, you know, by one of your church leaders, and they say you and your spouse show up at the temple on a Sunday morning at 8am and don't tell anyone you're coming. Literally lie to your friends and family.

John Dehlin [01:31:05] If they ask you where you're going, keep it from them. Show up at this, at the Mormon Temple and something very special is going to happen. So you show up and you're there with like five or six other couples, and a Mormon apostle shows up. Now, in Mormonism, a Mormon apostle is viewed as a special witness of Christ. And Mormons are taught culturally to believe that, that the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, the 15 men that run the Mormon Church are all special witnesses of Christ, which means they talk to Christ right Directly. They've met Christ, they've spoken to Christ, and that's what we're all led to believe.

John Dehlin [01:31:41] So this person who knows Jesus on a personal level, one of the top 15 leaders of the church, is there, meets you at the temple, invites you in, and basically performs this holy ordinance for and with you and your spouse, basically promising you that you are going to become a God someday. You have arrived. You are not only going to make it to heaven, you're making it to the celestial kingdom. And not just the celestial kingdom, which is the third highest tier of heaven, but you're making it to the. The highest level of the celestial kingdom, which is the third tier in the third tier, where you're going to become exalted and be made a God and a goddess to rule over your own Mormon planet or planets someday.

John Dehlin [01:32:28] And, and so they do what's called the second anointing, and they basically anoint you and your spouse with oil. I guess they put oil on your head. And they anoint you with hand. I have my little rustic feet. But, but they also wash your feet. But the apostle, the representative of Jesus washes your feet and your. I don't like, I'm rusty on the details, but there's feet washing involved. And eventually I think the wife and the husband retreat into a room where the wife washes the feet of the husband.

Shelise Sola [01:33:03] Yeah, that, that checks out. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:33:05] But I'm pretty sure the apostle washes the feet of the two of the couple. I think you guys can go look it up. Yeah, tell me I'm wrong. I don't care. Enough of what I've said is right. Yeah, that I'll, I'll stand by it. And the point I'm making is, is why is this horrific? Well, number one, it's horrific because it's a super sacred ordinance that has been withheld from the general membership for over a century. But number two, it turns out that it's, that it's, it's this elite privileged ordinance where like once you get the second anointing, then like your leaders ask you, hey, who's.

John Dehlin [01:33:43] It's almost like a multi level marketing scam. It's like, well, who do you recommend that you think should also be? And it's normally wealthy, wealthy grandparents that have given a crap ton of money to the church and then their children, you know, and, and it's, it's basically like if you have committed enough of your lives, if you're wealthy enough, if you're powerful enough, if we want to make sure you never leave and we want to reward you for all the time and money and reputation that you've given to the church, we're going to give you the super secret elite ordinance and promise you, literally. And this is the other shocking part, that the only thing you can do to disqualify yourself from exaltation, from becoming a God, is what Shalis?

Shelise Sola [01:34:27] Is it murder?

John Dehlin [01:34:28] It's murder.

Shelise Sola [01:34:29] I'm surprised it's not sexual sin.

John Dehlin [01:34:31] No. So literally, by, by the, by the rules of the second anointing, you can be a pedophile or a rapist and

Shelise Sola [01:34:38] still make it to the top.

John Dehlin [01:34:39] Absolutely. What do you, what do you think it does to the psychology of a human to tell them they're basically superiority complex, can do no wrong. As long as you don't murder, you're good. Like the horrible things on this earth. Just think of Chad Dabel and Lori Valo. They believed that they were gods. They believed that they were invincible. So they kill their spouses and Children thinking there's going to be no consequence because they've got God's power on their side. Like, trust me, I have a psychology background. Once you start telling humans they're invincible, horrible, horrific things happen. And so, yeah, promising these wealthy elite Mormons that because they've got the right, you know, parents or grandparents, because they know the right people, because they gave enough money that they're going to be God someday and there's nothing they could do in the remaining years of their life to, to disqualify themselves.

John Dehlin [01:35:35] It's just horrific on, on 15 different levels. And then that it's, it's withheld. A school teacher who's just a humble school teacher that never is wealthy, that isn't connected to some apostle school teachers and, and traditional housewives or, or husbands or whatever, they're never going to get access to this ordinance. It's only if, like your grandparents are apostles or your parents are super wealthy, only the elite are gonna, are gonna even get access to this ordinance. So I don't know, is that horrific?

Shelise Sola [01:36:07] Like, for something that's definitely shocking. When I first heard it on your channel, I was like, wait, what? There's like a super secret club in Mormonism? I thought Mormonism's already a super secret club.

John Dehlin [01:36:18] Well, that's one of the definitions of a. It's one of the criteria of a cult.

Shelise Sola [01:36:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:36:22] Is when there's secret levels where the more you advance within the high demand religion or cult, the more you learn. But that super secret troubling stuff, like the branding of Sarah Edmondson with the Nexium. Right. Like all that super secret stuff that's most shocking and troubling is withheld until. From the low rank. From the low rank members. Yeah, that's like, you know, other than like getting your own name. Like, there are a few things where if it's happening to you, you're freaking in a culture. One is if you're, you're being given a new name by your organization. And another is if there's super secret rituals where you're not told about them at the beginning, but you're told about them as you advance in money and power. Like, those are two sure signs of a cult.

Shelise Sola [01:37:07] Yeah. They take away your identity, give you a new identity and then tell you not to tell anyone.

John Dehlin [01:37:11] Yep. That's it. Yeah. Okay, so that's one.

Shelise Sola [01:37:15] Yeah, that's a good one.

John Dehlin [01:37:17] Is that all right? Yeah.

Shelise Sola [01:37:19] Okay. Are there any other things that come to mind or should we move to

John Dehlin [01:37:21] the next question of other shocking things?

Shelise Sola [01:37:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:37:24] Oh, my gosh. I mean, it was. It was shocking to learn that the Mormon Church participated in electroshock therapy of LGBT students at byu, where basically they were, you know, shown erotic, like, gay porn as BYU students and then were. Were shocked. Some say shocked on their genitals.

Shelise Sola [01:37:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:37:52] Whenever they got aroused.

Shelise Sola [01:37:54] Right.

John Dehlin [01:37:55] And it was a form of. Of aversion therapy, which is different than conversion therapy. Oh, it was a form of aversion therapy thinking that like rats, if you administered the right operant conditioning, you could de gay ify somebody through aversive stimuli. And basically it just drove these young gay BYU students mad and made many of them want to kill themselves. And the Mormon Church. Not only did the Mormon Church participate in that at BYU in the 70s, but the current number two leader in the Mormon Church, Dallin H. Oaks, who is next in line to be the prophet. He was the president of byu who approve those experiments. It's a little shocking.

Shelise Sola [01:38:43] Literally shocking. And yeah, I. I heard about that too. I think they actually released a documentary of some of these men who had to go through this, and I haven't watched it myself yet. They covered it on not so Molly Mormon podcast, and they even mentioned one where they inject something into their veins that makes them nauseous and throat throw up and then make them watch porn. So. Oh, it's so frustrating and, and sad that people had to go through this.

John Dehlin [01:39:12] Yeah. And. And one of the reasons I'm harder on the Mormon Church than maybe other organizations is because it's one thing to do harm. Like, you know, if you just look at the general medical industry or even the. The field of psychiatry, you go back into the 40s and 50s, they were, like, performing lobotomies on people indiscriminately. And this isn't Mormonism. This is just like, oh, we think lobotomies will help cure, you know, bipolar.

Shelise Sola [01:39:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:39:40] And so they're like, literally, like, separating the corpus callosum with the knife and. And scrambling parts of people's brains with an ice. Just like. Yeah, with the. Exactly. Through the nose or the eye socket with the ice pick. Like, horrific stuff. Just kind of like, trying to shit out to help people who are, like, not doing so well. Like. So, like the, you know, modern medicine or modern psychiatry has a really horrific track record and a good track record of, like, doing experiments to try and figure things out. Like, okay, we're going to cut humanity some slack for making some errors along the way. I can do that.

John Dehlin [01:40:20] I can hold a space of empathy and understanding for the fact that, you know, 200 years ago we thought spirits were what, like evil spirits were what caused depression. Like, we didn't know we're making stuff up. So, so, like, I can have a place in my heart of empathy for, for social science or science gone wrong. What's different about Mormonism is the Mormon Church gains its power by telling people it's led by God and Jesus.

John Dehlin [01:40:50] So it's one thing to say I'm a medical doctor doing my best to like, help people. So I'm going to perform some experiments to see if this helps. Like, yeah, there are unethical and ethical ways to do that, but you're going to cut those people slack when you're performing electroshock therapy on gay Mormon men on their genitals, saying that you represent Jesus and God and that this, that God and Jesus in effect approve of this experiment or even in a less benign way. God and Jesus told me, the Mormon prophet, that your gay lifestyle is next to bestiality and, and, and pedophilia in terms of evil.

Shelise Sola [01:41:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:41:34] And, and you're telling them that it's God and Jesus who believe that. That's a whole order of magnitude level, more severe, more abusive and, and more damaging. So, yeah, I, I expect more of the Mormon Church because their power and their wealth is tied to convincing people that their everything they do is, is from the lips of God and Jesus. And I'm not exaggerating.

Shelise Sola [01:42:00] Yeah. You have spiritual abuse, emotional abuse, mental abuse, physical abuse, sexual abuse, sexual abuse, all under the guise of this is what God wants for you.

John Dehlin [01:42:08] Absolutely. Yeah. So that's, that's the second shocking thing.

Shelise Sola [01:42:12] Wow.

John Dehlin [01:42:13] Should we keep going?

Shelise Sola [01:42:14] Do you have another one?

John Dehlin [01:42:15] Yeah. Are you kidding?

Shelise Sola [01:42:18] Lay them on me, Josh.

John Dehlin [01:42:19] So I did this whole series called Losing the Lamanites.

Shelise Sola [01:42:23] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:42:23] Which was, was, was. So, so obviously we've already talked about one of the most horrific doctrines of Mormonism, which is that Native Americans. I mean, this is shocking, but this isn't the shocking thing. This is the foundation of the shocking thing. So there's this thing called the mound builder myth, which was this belief in the 1700s in America that like, well, we're finding all these really cool civilizations, you know, remnants of really sophisticated civilizations. But, and I'm using, I'm using the language of white words, 19th century America. But clearly these savages, these dark, you know, savages couldn't have, they're not intelligent enough, they're not sophisticated enough to have been able to develop this agriculture and art in these major civilizations.

John Dehlin [01:43:14] There must have been a white race that lived here in America that built all these amazing techniques and civilizations that were then killed off. I mean, obviously dark civilizations couldn't, couldn't have done this amazing stuff. So, so, so clearly these dark Native Americans that are all around us, who we're displacing and committing genocide towards, right, clearly they couldn't have done it. So they must have killed off this white race of people.

John Dehlin [01:43:46] So that was a thing like Thomas Jefferson, like Benjamin Franklin. If you go back to the 1700s in America, that was kind of a general understanding that somehow like the, the 12 tribes of Israel, some of the remnants, the Jews of the twelve tribes of Israel somehow made their way over to America as white settlers developed all these amazing civilizations and somehow these dark civilizations killed off all the white people. And that's who, who, you know, the, the Puritans and the Pilgrims found when they came over and the Conquistadors when they came over and settled North America in Central and South America. So that's the mound builder myth, right?

John Dehlin [01:44:27] So, so clearly when Joseph Smith created the Book of Mormon, he, he needed a framework to tell the story of the Book of Mormon. So he literally like copies and pastes the mound builder myth into the Book of Mormon. So that, that's the, what I just told you is the central premise of Mormonism's holiest text, right? The Book of Mormon believes everything I just told you about dark skinned and light skinned Native Americans and the, the dark skinned, you know, Laymanites killed off the white and delightsome Nephites.

Shelise Sola [01:45:06] And that's actual text. White and delightsome?

John Dehlin [01:45:09] Absolutely, yeah. Dark and loathsome Lamanites, White and delight some Nephites in Mormon scripture today, 2022 has not been removed. So, so this is the teaching of the Lamanites. So whenever any, any Native American or, or Latino or Pacific Islander joins the Mormon Church, they're taught that they are the descendants of the Lamanites as if it's an honor, as if it's some great honor because on the one hand they're told they're the descendants of Israel because obviously these Native Americans were the descendants of the twelve tribes of Israel somehow. And so they're the pure blood of Israel. So that's the good news. The bad news is your ancestors were made dark and loathsome so that you would be viewed as repulsive by the, by the white Nephites who were killed off by your wicked ancestors.

John Dehlin [01:46:03] So that's the, that's the downside of being a Lamanite, right? So, so this idea of the Lamanite. So if you were join the church or baptizing the church in Latin America or the Pacific Islanders, you were told you're not Apache, you're not Mayan, you're not Incan, you're not Tongan or Maori, you're a Lamanite. Right.

John Dehlin [01:46:29] Your cultural identity is this Christian fan fiction, frontier American identity that Joseph Smith have pulled out of his rear and slapped on the Book of Mormon. That's your actual cultural identity. Why are you laughing?

Shelise Sola [01:46:43] Because it's ridiculous.

John Dehlin [01:46:44] It is, it's just erasing offensive, erasing the indigenous cultures. Like if you don't cry or scream or shoot someone, you have to laugh. You have to laugh. Yeah.

Shelise Sola [01:46:53] Because it's so awful.

John Dehlin [01:46:55] It's so awful. So anyway, so like imagine generations of, of dark skinned Mormons being taught that they're Lamanites. So you reach 20, the 2010, 20 teens. I'm doing Mormon stories and I'm like, whoa. So like what happens when someone who's been taught their whole life that they're a laymanite loses their faith in the Mormon Church and all of a sudden they're like, whoa. I had this whole identity that I had assumed based on what the church taught me, that now I'm realizing I'm actually Incan or Mayan or Maori or Samoan. Like, what's that like?

John Dehlin [01:47:29] So I, I, I interviewed a bunch of ex Mormon Native Americans or ex Mormon Pacific Islanders about their experience. And, and definitely one of the most tragic things I experienced on Mormon stories was hearing these people tell their story. Because like, like Sarah, you know, one of the people I interviewed, Sarah, she talked about growing up, she comes from kind of Alaska Native American tribes, kind of in the Pacific Northwest slash, Alaska. And Sarah talked about how there was this Mormon prophecy that if you were righteous enough, your skin would turn lighter.

Shelise Sola [01:48:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:48:11] That the more righteous you got, you and your descendants would become lighter skinned. And so she would like as an adolescent Mormon teenager, she would be super righteous, super righteous. And then look at her skin and see that it stayed dark. Oh, but then what was worse? That there'd be like a church activity where they'd go swimming. So she would go out in a bathing suit, the sun would hit and she would get even more tan, so she'd become even more dark. And for her that was a sign that she was becoming less, more wicked instead of more righteous. So she talked about like in the summer going out to like church activities, wearing long sleeves so that her skin wouldn't and Sunscreen and hats.

John Dehlin [01:48:56] Imagine you're at a lake or at the beach and you're covered up with long sleeve shirts and a hat and sunscreen because you're trying to defy the laws of physics and prevent your skin from, from getting naturally darker. And that was her teenage years trying to fulfill Mormon prophecy of having her skin tone get lighter.

John Dehlin [01:49:21] There was also another Native American that, that we interviewed who used to rub lemon on, on her skin because she believed in some sort of folk wisdom that if you rubbed lemon on your skin, it would bleach it. It would bleach your skin and make it lighter. So like that's, that's part of, you know, the many horrific examples of the, the Mormon quote, Laymanite experience.

Shelise Sola [01:49:50] That is heartbreaking.

John Dehlin [01:49:51] Yeah.

Shelise Sola [01:49:52] That. What was the end of her story? When did she get out and how's she doing?

John Dehlin [01:49:55] Oh yeah. So what episode?

Shelise Sola [01:49:59] And we'll link it right here.

John Dehlin [01:50:01] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So she is one of the, of. She is one of my favorite. She is one of my favorite Mormon stories interviews of all time. Her name is Sarah Newcomb.

Shelise Sola [01:50:11] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:50:11] S A R A H Newcomb. N E W C O M B And I've interviewed her a few times, but either Google the Losing the Lamanite series or Sarah Newcomb.

Shelise Sola [01:50:21] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:50:21] And you'll get some amazing, horrific and inspiring stories.

Shelise Sola [01:50:25] Yeah. And I, I heard about the, the Native American placement program where they would take children off of these reservations, put them in Mormon homes and who was it? One of the higher ups in the church that literally lined up the kids, took pictures and was like, see, they're getting wider.

John Dehlin [01:50:39] Yeah. Spencer Kimball.

Shelise Sola [01:50:40] Oh, freaking Kimball. I could do without Kimball.

John Dehlin [01:50:43] I know. And the miracle of forgiveness comes from him as well. Like. Yeah, the, the Indian placement program is what it was called, was basically cultural colonization at its worst where, where Mormons, White Mormon families would take, well, Native American, well, Laymanite Native American Mormon parents would give their kids to white Mormon Utah and Idaho families in Arizona to be raised by white parents because they were taught that they had no business raising these kids. That if they were raised in white Mormon homes and, and attended, you know, sort of, you know, Indian schools where they could be assimilated properly into white American culture, that eventually they would become righteous and their curses would be reversed and of course their skin would, would lighten over time. Like I'm literally not making this up.

Shelise Sola [01:51:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:51:43] Google Indian placement program and the Mormon Church and the Mormon prophet, the prophets were behind this program. Yeah.

Shelise Sola [01:51:51] I think that was one of the most shocking Things that I heard about the church just a couple years ago where I thought, wait a second, I was supposed to believe that as a Mormon, I had no idea that was even a thing. So even after hearing all of these horrific stories, you've been doing this since 2005. You've interviewed thousands of people. What is it that makes you continue to want to do this work? What inspires you to continue on this path?

What Keeps the Work Going

John Dehlin [01:52:15] Oh, you mean we're going to stop with the horrific things?

Shelise Sola [01:52:17] I mean, do you have more? We can keep going.

John Dehlin [01:52:20] That's what to say. That was a good segue. And I have more. But maybe we'll save it for my next interview with you. Okay.

Shelise Sola [01:52:27] Part two.

John Dehlin [01:52:27] Part two, yeah. Okay. So why do I do this work? Yeah, why do I do this?

Shelise Sola [01:52:32] What inspires you to keep going after you hear all of these tragic stories?

John Dehlin [01:52:36] Yeah. So I've been doing this work for 20 years. Like, it's kind of crazy. It's kind of crazy. Yeah. And you would think I would. Like, I had a hard time staying with one job. Like, even at Microsoft. I was there seven years. I probably had seven different jobs at Microsoft. Like, I probably could meet criteria for adhd. And I've been doing this so long, it basically makes no sense that I'm still doing it. I think I. And this isn't a flex. It's just a fact. I think I have one of the longest running podcasts in the history of the world because you won't find many, if any, podcasters that have been doing it since 2005. So why in the heck am I still doing it? Right.

Shelise Sola [01:53:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:53:17] Especially when it's so heavy.

Shelise Sola [01:53:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:53:19] Right. And then the truth is, like, I had the benefit of having careers for the first 15 years of my life that I wasn't passionate about. I thought about law school, but then I didn't. Didn't know many lawyers that love their jobs. They got into tech, which was fun, but was ultimately in many ways shallow and superficial.

John Dehlin [01:53:43] And it wasn't until I found Mormon Stories Podcast and started learning about the lives of the people that Mormon Stories Podcast influenced that I saw all this horrific carnage that we've been talking about for this entire episode. And as a result, I realized that this was an incredible opportunity to prevent divorce, to keep families from being destroyed, to prevent death by suicide, to improve people's mental health, to improve marriages, to alleviate anxiety and depression, to. Basically, it was this massive pool of suffering people who also, by the way, were universally deceived into these very damaging ways of life.

John Dehlin [01:54:36] I could be part of a small part, a decent part of their liberation from undue influence. And I could help prevent or heal the massive carnage that Mormons were experiencing within a Mormon context. So, like, I don't think there's any bigger gift in life than to find a purpose or a cause that makes it so every single day. You literally never have to set your alarm clock. I do not set my alarm clock because somewhere between 3am and 6am I wake up and say, I can't wait to get to work today. Like, that's literally my life for the past 18 years. I don't have a job.

John Dehlin [01:55:19] I have a passion. I have a cause that now I happen to get paid for. And so, like every day, if you get to wake up and say, I get to prevent a divorce today, I get to prevent a suicide today. I get to heal a family today, I get to alleviate depression and anxiety. I get to do things that would make people want to stop me on the street and say, hey, thanks for. Thanks for helping, helping me out.

John Dehlin [01:55:42] That's, that's, that's like the Holy Grail. Like King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table sought. The Holy Grail, I found it. The Holy Grail. Little, little safety tip, a little secret life tip. The Holy Grail of the human experience is finding a cause where you can alleviate suffering and promote joy to as many people as possible. You'll never work another day in your life, and you'll have more meaning and fulfillment and joy and satisfaction than I think you could get in any other and almost any other venue. Like, you know, next to my marriage and my children, this is the most sacred work I will ever do. And so I don't understand your question. I'm kidding.

Shelise Sola [01:56:31] No. That really is beautiful. And even though you aren't the prophet of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, you really are affecting change from the inside out. You are exposing truths. You are educating people who don't know the true history of the church. And even bigger than that, I think just having on regular people helps other people say, oh, I'm not alone in this. I'm not the only one who's felt that way. I'm not the only one who's had that said to me by a bishop or I thought that what I was feeling was a little weird, but I guess other people feel it too.

Shelise Sola [01:57:03] And giving people that sense of community that they have lost since leaving the church. And this is meant as a compliment and also just a fact for our listeners here you are the number one podcast that people go to when they are having a faith transition because you are gentle in the way that you, you say things. And like we mentioned before, you're not trying to burn down the church, but you really want to help educate people and help alleviate their suffering just by showing, hey, someone else has been through this, or, or this is how they dealt with this problem. Maybe you could try that.

Shelise Sola [01:57:34] Bringing on experts to talk about the history of the church. I love the whole what was with LDS discussions. Oh, such, such a great series where you just break down every part of the church and if people have questions about it, they can go to that. And it's just an important research resource that you're providing. So thank you for that and I think I could speak for everyone here. Thank you for what you are doing. It's immensely helpful, as you already know.

John Dehlin [01:58:01] Yeah, well, thank you. It's a, it's, it's an honor and it's a privilege and it's fun. It's creative, like learning new platforms. Like, I started out as an audio only podcast and to be able to like, like moving to video, moving to YouTube and then tick tock and Instagram and social media, like, it's, it's never ending. And we've done retreats and we've done workshops and I've done individual coaching. There's so much joy in this work. So I think it's a. I'm surprised more people don't do it. I'm so, like, whenever a creator comes up, I don't view him as a competitive threat. I'm like, holy smokes, we have somebody wanting to get in this work.

John Dehlin [01:58:39] I need more, like, I need more partners, I need more collaborators. We need more heroes. Like, I don't, I don't like to think of myself as a hero because that's prideful. But like, I love this idea of the Avengers or the X Men or the superheroes. Super friends. Like, Wolverine's awesome, but Wolverine plus Wanda, you know, plus Vision.

Shelise Sola [01:59:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:59:03] Plus Dr. Xavier, you know, plus, you know, Captain America. Like, that's amazing. So, like, this is fun work. It's hard, it's grueling, it's painful, but it's super rewarding and it's super needed and it's understaffed.

Shelise Sola [01:59:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:59:22] So like I, I love how, how quickly your, your YouTube channel is growing. A huge part of that is your talent and, and Jonathan's support. But it's also, there's just such a need, you know, I hope you're having fun.

Shelise Sola [01:59:36] I Am having fun.

John Dehlin [01:59:37] I hope you don't go away because what happens is people like you come online and then they, they, they get beat up and they quit.

Shelise Sola [01:59:43] You know what, that's, that's a really great point. And it, it is hard because it's such a big topic and it is very polarizing. I have people in the comments that are like, yes, thank you. I need your work, I need what you're offering. Thank you for doing this and other people that are just not for it. And it, it can get hard, the negative criticism. So I wanted to ask you from a fellow creator's standpoint, how do you deal with negative criticism? Like teach me the ways because I'm only in five months and I'm like, oh, this kind of hurts. Even though the pros definitely outweigh the cons, what are your, your secrets to approaching that?

Handling Criticism and Sustaining the Mission

John Dehlin [02:00:16] I see you getting emotional again. True.

Shelise Sola [02:00:19] Yeah, yeah, it's tough. It can be tough.

John Dehlin [02:00:20] Isn't the space brutal?

Shelise Sola [02:00:22] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:23] It just chews people up and spits them out. Like it's, it's no joke. Like I don't like to call the Mormon church a cult, but like fighting against multi hundred billion dollar high demand religions and or cults is extremely hard and painful and punishing. It's punishing. I don't think there's another word to describe it. Right. Yeah, yeah, it's, it's super rewarding and it's super punishing because you've got all the orthodox, you've got the millions of orthodox members that all want you not to exist. Yeah, right. That all want to criticize you and smear you or you know, criticize you. But then you've also got just, you know, the ex Mormon crowd. The ex religious group can also be,

Shelise Sola [02:01:14] it can be brutal too.

John Dehlin [02:01:15] Super toxic.

Shelise Sola [02:01:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:01:17] And, and, and even more mean spirited and more vicious. Like I would say if I had to pick my top 10 most vicious adversaries, all 10 would be ex Mormons.

Shelise Sola [02:01:29] Really?

John Dehlin [02:01:30] Versus any Mormon apologist. Or, or. Yeah, so, so ex Mormons are amazing and then some are horrific. That's just so you get it on all sides anyway. I would say just like when you play the guitar over time you get calluses on your fingers. Part of it is just time and just taking the criticism. So, so that's number one. You just gotta not quit. Like I, I know I'm not the smartest creator out here in ex Mormon land. I'm not the most creative, I'm not the most attractive. Like I'm not the Most knowledgeable. I am the one who's been doing it the longest. But that's just because I started really early. There might be someone who's been doing it longer than me, but I mean, my. If I have a superpower, which I don't, but if I did, it would be not quitting.

Shelise Sola [02:02:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:02:26] Not quitting. Because I've had people accuse me of abusing women. I've had me. People accusing me of harming children. I've had people accuse me of financial impropriety. I've been smeared and defamed in ways that are not only career ending, but are life ending. And that's, you know, that's just that, that's just the, the defamation on, on the whole other side of the spectrum is like, your teeth are crooked, your teeth are yellow, your nose is crooked, you're dumb, you're, you know, you're, you're old, you're irrelevant, you're boring. You talk over people. And all of that's true.

John Dehlin [02:03:07] Right. But. But at the same time, like, it's hard to hear all that over time. So there's no secret sauce other than just like, you just keep playing the guitar sometimes till your fingers bleed, and over time you develop calluses. And that's probably the number one suggestion is don't quit. Shalice. Yeah, don't quit unless your physical or mental health requires it, then quit. Absolutely quit. If it's, if it's damaging your physical or mental health, quit. But if you can survive it, then you're going to flourish.

Shelise Sola [02:03:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:03:43] So don't quit.

Shelise Sola [02:03:44] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:03:45] And just give it time. The second thing is you have to just ignore the trolls.

Shelise Sola [02:03:52] It's hard. It's hard to do.

John Dehlin [02:03:53] I know so many creators that feel like they have to engage.

Shelise Sola [02:03:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:03:59] First of all, they have to care about what these haters say who have no skin in the game. There's a really good Teddy Roosevelt quote that I should read. But it's, you know, Brene Brown was. Made it famous, but I was a Teddy Roosevelt fan before Brene Brown ever came up. But it's just this idea that, like, unless you're in the ring, unless you're in the. Unless you're on the battlefield, you've got no place criticizing those of us who are so literally like, you can. You can, you can literally ignore every single critic out there that isn't in this battlefield with you. And that eliminates a lot of voices.

John Dehlin [02:04:36] Right. And guess what? You're not going to hear criticisms from me because I've got too much respect. For somebody who enters the arena. So you're only going to get like praise for me and support and maybe some, A tip. Some tips.

John Dehlin [02:04:50] And so that, that really simplifies your life when you realize you can completely ignore everyone who's got anything to say about what you're doing. That isn't, that isn't putting their own skin in the game.

Shelise Sola [02:05:03] All right, that's great advice.

John Dehlin [02:05:05] I'm not done.

Shelise Sola [02:05:05] I see Jonathan nodding over.

John Dehlin [02:05:07] Why are you nodding, John? No, you don't have to answer. But, but I'm not done. But, but it's harder, you know, because so many creators just. This is hard enough work when you feel empowered. If you're constantly draining your emotional energy, reading and listening to and worst of all, engaging these people that just want ill for you and that offer nothing to the world, let alone to you, and all they want to do is SAP your attention, your energy and your time, you're done. You're dead. You're dead on arrival. So you just, you block those people. Anyone who comes to any of your channels showing mean spiritedness, cruelty, you know, bigotry of any sort, you block and ban them.

John Dehlin [02:06:03] Ain't got time for that. Right. And that's going to simplify your life. I used to get so much hate, hate for censoring and moderating people. And there are other people that are going to disagree with me. And all I'm going to say is, you enter this arena for 20 years.

Shelise Sola [02:06:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:06:16] And see how long you can endure without blocking and banning the haters. But over time, I just, I just decided they wouldn't treat me if they were in my house. They wouldn't have the courage to say the crap that they say to me to my face, you know, so why are we going to let them in my virtual house and let them disrespect me? No, if you disrespect me in my physical house, you're out the door. Why is he going to be any different on social media? So just liberally block and ban and ignore. Most of all, ignore the haters. And by the way, what haters want? What do they want, Shalis?

Shelise Sola [02:06:53] Your attention.

John Dehlin [02:06:54] They want your attention. They want your destruction. They want your attention and they want your demise and they want attention for themselves.

Shelise Sola [02:07:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:03] So you're only feeding them, literally the food that they, that will sustain them by giving, paying any, any time of day to them. So unless it like provides you with good video, like, you know, like reading the hater comments and making fun of them like that can get you Views and subscribers. Right. So unless you're using them to grow your channel, you ignore. You ignore them.

Shelise Sola [02:07:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:28] Don't feed the trolls. Ignore them.

Shelise Sola [02:07:29] Block and don't feed the trolls. I need a T shirt that says that. Don't feed the trolls.

John Dehlin [02:07:33] 100, 100%. Yeah, yeah. And by the way, I love constructive criticism. So I'm not saying block and ban your critics.

Shelise Sola [02:07:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:42] If people come to you with reasonable good faith suggestions, that's the only way you become successful is by listening to your critics. It's just the mean spirited haters, not the thoughtful critics that you want to get rid of.

Shelise Sola [02:07:55] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:57] Okay. You want, you want the next little bit of advice?

Shelise Sola [02:07:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:59] Become financially sustainable. So like, do you know that I've done a lot of hard things in the past 20 years? Do you know what the hardest thing I ever did was?

Shelise Sola [02:08:10] Asking for donations.

John Dehlin [02:08:12] No, that was hard. Yeah, that was hard. When I left Microsoft, I was making 200, 200,000 plus dollars a year when I left Microsoft. So that was back in 2004. Okay, so for the first 12 or 13, I don't know, I'm making this up, but let's just say for the first 12 years of Mormon stories existence. No, probably 17. For the first, I don't know, a long time, well over a decade, I was getting paid little to nothing for doing Mormon stories.

Shelise Sola [02:08:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:08:42] And then at some point, by not quitting, by improving and by sticking with it and be trying to be creative, grow the channel, we were able to get enough revenue where at some point I was able to, to get to the point where I had the cash to pay myself what I was making 20 years ago.

Shelise Sola [02:09:01] Wow.

John Dehlin [02:09:02] After two master's degrees and a PhD and 15 years in the business, like finally I had the, the money to allow my board to pay me what my market value was. And that was terrifying to me because Mormons are the cheapest, most sort of chintzy. Sometimes people, when it comes to people like us, they call, you know, Thomas S. Monson, Gordon B. Hinckley, Russell M. Nelson, down H. Oaks, they can pull down 300k plus a year, lifetime pensions, a million dollar signing bonus, they can free health care, they can pull all that down for themselves.

John Dehlin [02:09:47] But as soon as somebody who's actually trying to make Mormonism a healthier, happier place tries to earn a living, the Mormon and ex Mormon Internet goes mad. They go crazy and they're like, how dare you pay yourself a livable wage? Or God forbid, heavenly Father forbid, how dare you pay yourself your market value and so I.

John Dehlin [02:10:12] The Kraken was unleashed when I. When I allowed my board to pay me what I was making 20 years ago. And, and for years, I was terrified to release my financials. I did, but I was terrified. And I was mercilessly brutalized online for making a livable wage.

Shelise Sola [02:10:34] You know, which is crazy, because what you do takes so much time and effort, and you are on it every single day, working and doing episodes and, And I mean, flying people in. Like, the work you do that doesn't even come close to what you should be getting paid for, how much time and effort you put into it.

John Dehlin [02:10:50] I easily have worked 60 hours a week for the past 20 years.

Shelise Sola [02:10:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:10:54] And the sacrifices to my family, healthcare, retirement, all sorts of things will never, Will never make back the financial sacrifices we made for Mormon stories, even at my current compensation levels. So my, My, My next thing is, do not, do not be afraid to ask for money. Ask for money. Just like you asked for subscriptions and click the bell and all that. Ask for money. Get a, get a. A PayPal or a donor box and just ask people to donate you, viewers and listeners to from cult of consciousness, what's it called?

Shelise Sola [02:11:31] Consciousness.

John Dehlin [02:11:31] How do they pay you right now?

Shelise Sola [02:11:33] I have a Patreon.

John Dehlin [02:11:34] So sign up for Shalisa's patreon right now. Pay your creators for their work or they'll go. They will go away. You will lose them. How many amazing creators, like infants on Thrones, Brother Jake, John Larsen, like, like you're a polygamy. Like, pick your amazing, you know, you know, podcast or YouTube channel that's in the boneyards that you've never heard of anymore because their creators were never paid and they got sick of it and quit. Like, don't let that happen. Why does Bill Real and Radio Free Mormon, why are they still existing? Because they're making decent money now, right? Why am I able to exist? Because I make money. So get yourself paid. Don't be ashamed. Get all the money that you can, because this is brutal work. And you viewers and listeners, step up and pay chalice for her amazing work.

Shelise Sola [02:12:32] Thank you, John.

John Dehlin [02:12:33] Yeah, for sure.

Shelise Sola [02:12:34] Great advice.

John Dehlin [02:12:35] Yeah.

Shelise Sola [02:12:35] A lot to mull over and talk to, talk about with my producer over here.

John Dehlin [02:12:39] Because if you're gonna face the slings and arrows of your opposition, it's way better to do that when you're pulling home a fat or a healthy, sustainable paycheck. Yeah, right.

Shelise Sola [02:12:51] I can focus more on it. I mean, each episode that I do with editing and recording is probably like six, seven hours Per episode and I do that weekly. So. Yeah, it's a lot.

John Dehlin [02:12:59] Yeah, yeah, yeah. You should be making, you should be making at least five figures, if not six, for the good you're, you're doing people. You should absolutely be making that. Yeah, yeah, no question.

Family, Personal Faith, and Listener Questions

Shelise Sola [02:13:10] All right, well, okay, I have one more question from me and then I think I have one or two from our listeners here. But. And if this is too personal, we can skip it. I was wondering, because you are, I guess someone label you like, like the ultimate ex Mormon apostate type of thing. How does your family handle this? Or what is it like for you in your personal life being who you are and being this, this megaphone for Mormonism?

John Dehlin [02:13:36] Thank you for asking. Margi. Before I left, Margi's like, don't, you know, don't disclose anything about our kids. Like, allow our kids their privacy. Like that is top of mind in this work. Because by far the most painful part of all of this has been the familial pain and sacrifice that has been made by my, by my wife Margi, and by my four children. Because, you know, whether it's trying to live in Utah when your dad is viewed as the Mormon Church's number one enemy.

Shelise Sola [02:14:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:14:13] And all the ways that they were excluded from groups and friendships were cut off and were, were judged and punished socially for just being my child. That's been horrific for them. And then even, even the things that you would assume are good, like people stopping you and thanking you for what you do or them being noticed and maybe even being given an opportunity because they're my child.

John Dehlin [02:14:44] Like, turns out that any self respecting child wants to succeed on their own. They never, they never want to be known as someone's kid and they never want to get an opportunity because they're someone's kid. And so, and the last thing they want to do when they're at a jazz game or Home Depot with their dad is to be stopped by, quote, adoring fans or whatever to like, can we take a photo? They're just like, no, can I just go to the restaurant and have a meal with my dad and not be interrupted and not be stopped and, and not have to sit for 15 minutes while someone tells my dad their life story, while we're just trying to have fun.

John Dehlin [02:15:28] And I'm not trying to be disparaging to the wonderful supporters that are out there, but from the perspective of Margi and my kids, it's, it's not been good. It's been painful and very, very difficult for them. And in some ways, inhumane. And then if your dad's getting smeared constantly on the Internet, you're hearing the most horrific things about your. Your dad, who you love, and then you got to wade through how much of it's true, what's not true, and then, even if you don't believe any of it, why are people constantly smearing my dad and having all these horrible things to say about him? That's not fun.

John Dehlin [02:16:09] They're often bullied. If they venture to get an Instagram account or a Twitter account, they're often bullied on social media just for being my children. So that's not fun for them. But then should they not be allowed to be on social media? And then even the thing that you would think would be best of all for them, when someone comes up to them and says, aren't you lucky to have John and Margi as your parents? Isn't it? It must be wonderful to. To be their children. You know, you'd think that'd be a compliment, right? But. But my kids are very quick to say, you know what?

John Dehlin [02:16:46] You don't know what it's like to be John and Margi's kids. You don't know how good of a dad John is behind the scenes. You don't know what he's like. You don't know what my parents are like. You have no idea. We're a family just like any other family. My parents have flaws and weaknesses just like everybody else. Like, why are you assuming that it's wonderful when it might be the opposite of that? So, like, on every level, this. I completely, egregiously, horrifically underestimated the pain and difficulty and cost that my family would bear for. For what I do you ultimately.

Shelise Sola [02:17:24] Do they support what you do? Do they understand it's for some sort of greater good?

John Dehlin [02:17:28] For years and years and years, it was just something that Margi tolerated, like, lovingly, supportingly, but annoyingly. In other words, it's like, if you got to do that Mormon stories thing, I'll support you, but it's just. It's really painful and it's. It's. It's annoying and it's tedious, and I'm sick of it. And I wish we could just move on.

John Dehlin [02:17:51] You know what I mean? So for many, many years, my. My kids didn't care, and Margi was basically supportive, but. But. But bothered by all the things, taxed by all the things that I mentioned, always in a loving and supportive way.

John Dehlin [02:18:09] And then, you know, over time, all my family has become very Supportive mostly because they become very. They become feminists, they've become intellectuals, they become LGBT themselves or LGBTQ allies. Are affirming. They've seen the way the church has harmed families and people, and so they. They all value the social justice elements to what I do, but it's all sweet and sour for all of them. They're supportive and respectful on a level and probably disturbed and annoyed on a level, and it's always going to be bittersweet for them, but overall, amazingly supportive. They've sacrificed unbelievable amounts for us, for you, for my viewers and listeners, and so I'm infinitely grateful and indebted to them for their support.

Shelise Sola [02:19:09] Yes, shout out to John's family, thank you for allowing him to continue this hard, grueling. But work that is helping millions of people.

John Dehlin [02:19:19] Yeah, yeah.

Shelise Sola [02:19:20] Okay, so I do have a question. Let's see from one of our listeners here. Okay, so this is from Finding My Truest Self. What are your current beliefs or spirituality practices?

John Dehlin [02:19:38] Is all right. Well, I am. The term spirituality has been poisoned for me a little bit. And for many people who leave Mormonism or high demand religion, it's kind of tainted because it's associated with the literal idea of spirits, ghosts or spirits or.

John Dehlin [02:20:06] And obviously for me to even entertain the word spirituality, I have to kind of define the terms. So I no longer view spirituality as like a belief in a higher power or some sort of transcendent power or a belief in spirits, just because I've seen those beliefs hijacked by infinite religions to coerce and cause undue harm to billions.

John Dehlin [02:20:38] So, like, it's triggering for me now, that doesn't mean I don't have thoughts or feelings about God or an afterlife or whatever, but I have to define the terms. So for me, spirituality means being connected to a higher purpose, being connected to something greater than yourself. And so obviously, for me, Mormon stories is my main source of spirituality because I am constantly connected to a cause which is the cause of truth, the cause of justice, this beautiful community that I'm a part of humanity, in a sense, helping awaken humanity to undue influence, helping people get their lives back, and then helping people live the most healthy, happy, meaningful life that they can.

John Dehlin [02:21:23] So for me, that's enough spirituality to last me the rest of my life. I don't need to believe in a heaven or a hell. I don't need to believe in, like, chakras or chi or reiki or prophecies or scripture.

John Dehlin [02:21:41] I don't resurrection. I don't need to believe in any of that. To have an incredibly fulfilling life. And then if you add to that just my love for nature, being connected to the outdoors, like between humanity and the outdoors, all my spiritual needs are getting met.

John Dehlin [02:21:58] Now that's, that's kind of the term spirituality in kind of a very narrow sense. Do you have follow up questions to that? Because there are other domains of traditional spirituality that you may have actually been asking me about.

Shelise Sola [02:22:12] No, I think our, our question asker here was more just wondering what your current beliefs are. Yeah, if, if it's Christian or agnosticism or.

John Dehlin [02:22:22] Okay, sorry.

Shelise Sola [02:22:23] No, that's okay. I mean spirituality is a part of that.

John Dehlin [02:22:26] So I have never once in my life identified as an atheist. So I don't identify as an atheist and I've never identified as an agnostic, although I believe technically every human is agnostic. And what I mean by that is the term agnosticism I think literally means do not know, does not know.

John Dehlin [02:22:50] So when it comes to death or an afterlife or a God, I think it's for anyone who's objective, they're gonna just sort of admit that no one really knows what happens when you die. Nobody really knows if there's a God, if there's a God. Nobody knows what the nature of God is. Everybody's guessing. Even if you've had incredibly, even if you've had a near death experience and Jesus visited you, you don't know whether that really happened or is literally just neurochemicals coursing through your brain. You don't know. You may think you know, but tell that to the person that believes they were abducted by a UFO and had sex with an alien.

John Dehlin [02:23:28] There are people who would die for that belief. So how do you as a religious person distinguish between yourself and a, any, any QAnon person or UFO believer? You can't. So we're all agnostic. But I don't identify as an agnostic because I believe the terms atheist and agnostic tend to polarize more than they do unite.

Shelise Sola [02:23:50] Right.

John Dehlin [02:23:51] And I want, I am against polarization, believe it or not, even though some people view me as extremely polarizing, I hate polarization. So I don't choose identities or really invest in terms of like cult or atheist or agnostic that just tend to turn people off. Now I'm not against using the term cult. I think the term cult is very important and I think studying cults and undue influence whether Stephen Hassan Lindsay what is Luna Lindsay Corbin like cult awareness and studying undue influence is crucial. So you are, don't need my blessing, but you have my full support in your use of the term, but I tend to not use it because I don't like to alienate the people that I want to reach.

Shelise Sola [02:24:39] Right.

John Dehlin [02:24:39] So I. I have no idea if there's a God. I have no idea if there's an afterlife. I love Jesus. I love the teachings of Jesus. I also love the teachings of Buddha. I love the teachings of Lao Tzu. There's not a supernatural element to any of those teachings. But I'm better because of Eckhart Tolle. I'm better because of secular Buddhism. I'm better because of the teachings of Jesus. So any teaching that helps me be a kinder, compassionate, more loving person, I believe in. So in that sense, you could call me a Christian. But do I have an active belief that Jesus died and on the third day was resurrected and that he died for our sins and we'll live with them again?

John Dehlin [02:25:18] Again, I don't think anybody really knows. So. And then the only other caveat I'll say is that I kind of have already said this. When it comes to things like New Age stuff, Reiki, new, you know, like New Age mysticism, New Age mysticism, a little bit Reiki stuff, like mediums, Teal swan. Like, anytime any human is claiming supernatural powers, my alarm bells go off because I can. You can. You can leave the frying pan and jump right in the fire, and you jettison your Mormon prophet or your Mormon bishop or the Mormon cult or whatever you want to call it, and then all of a sudden, your spiritual advisor, your shaman is telling you what you need to do with your life and potentially financially or sexually exploiting you.

John Dehlin [02:26:15] So, like, like claiming. I've. I've said jokingly that, like, claiming to have special powers or a visitation from the divine should be made illegal. It's just too much power for anyone to have. Even somebody standing over you with their hands saying, your fifth chakra is blocked. And I, you need to unblock your fifth chakra. I've seen that be used as undue influence to control people's lives. Not to mention telling somebody, oh, I'm talking to your dead loved one that you miss, but let me channel what they want for you in your life. That's too much power. And so I'm. I'm. It's not that I'm saying all of that's invalid.

John Dehlin [02:26:56] It's not that I'm even criticizing people's sacred beliefs. I'm just saying any of that stuff raises immediate red flags for me just because of where I've Come from?

Shelise Sola [02:27:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:27:07] I say people beware of anyone claiming special powers. Chances are they want your time, your money, or your sex.

Shelise Sola [02:27:14] Yeah, it can get really tricky, especially when you leave a high demand group and then you see something that seems or appears to be opposite of that and jumping head first into that, and without realizing it, you're giving them your money and your time. Everything that you are trying to avoid in this other high demand group. So it can definitely swing both ways and there's always going to be levels within anything. Just like people always say, well, you left one cult for another. Because I, I am more of like the law of attraction type of person.

Shelise Sola [02:27:44] But just the same as yoga itself is not a cult, there can be cults that practice yoga and that's like all that they, they base their cult around is yogic practice. So, yeah, you just have to be careful. You gotta keep your eyes open. Follow the bite model. If you have any questions about am I in a cult? Let's see, is there behavioral control, information control, control, thought control, emotional control? If not, if you feel like you are a self sovereign being, which is what I promote on my podcast of consciousness. To me, consciousness is being aware of yourself, being aware of your surroundings and being able to decide for yourself what you want to do with your life without someone else telling you what to do with your life. Just being in complete control of yourself is my motto.

John Dehlin [02:28:26] Yeah, no, that's brilliant. And, and may I add, on the other extreme, do I believe that there's something propelling forward humanity? Yeah. Do I think there's awe and magic and wonder in this existence? Absolutely. Do I feel like some unexplicable force helped me do what I've done? Yes. Do I feel like that power, whatever it is, still engages my work every day? Absolutely. Do I know what that is? No. But I think it's important to have a sense of awe and wonder and curiosity and even mysticism. I think there's a place for that. It just needs guardrails, that's all.

Shelise Sola [02:29:12] Yeah, yeah, I agree. I think everything just needs to be regulated and monitored in some sort of way. All right, one more question before I. Linda, listen.

John Dehlin [02:29:21] Well, by the way, that's why your podcast is so awesome. Oh. Because you're focused on helping educate people so they. They have awareness. So kudos to you.

Shelise Sola [02:29:30] Thank you. Yeah, that's all I'm trying to do is just spread awareness. I'm not trying to tear anyone down. I just want people to see things from new perspectives and that's what people can offer when they come on my show, especially you. All right, so this next person, I don't know if they're okay with me saying their name, so we'll just leave it anonymous. What. What's been the most difficult thing about not being LDS anymore? Is there anything that's been more difficult after leaving the church?

The Hardest Parts of Leaving and Final Reflections

John Dehlin [02:29:56] I mean, there's the obvious stuff where you lose your identity, you lose your sense of morality, you lose your sense of meaning and purpose, you lose family members, you lose your friends, you lose your entire community, you lose your resolution about the afterlife, and you basically become a shell of a person. And you wonder, not only do you wonder why you exist, but you wonder who you are, and you feel resentful about all the decisions you made under false pretenses. Like, other than that.

Shelise Sola [02:30:24] Other than that, what's been the hardest

John Dehlin [02:30:27] thing about my faith crisis? No, I'm sorry. That was a ramble for me. It's been having, like, I have. There's a family member, a close family member, who is a really important part of my immediate family, who, when I come to their house to visit, they leave the house.

Shelise Sola [02:30:52] Oh, no.

John Dehlin [02:30:53] So they. And then because other family members are under the influence of that family member, I really don't have much a relationship with any of those other family members. So in a very real way, this sort of hard Jehovah's Witness or Scientology, like shunning, where major, major members of your family, you have no relief of your immediate family, and you see them and you run into them on a weekly or monthly basis. They don't talk to you, they don't look at you, they don't want you in their lives. You don't know them, and they don't know you or their kids because of. Because of their beliefs. Like, that's excruciating. And it torments me every day.

Shelise Sola [02:31:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:31:41] And I'm reminded every day of the ways I'm not able to be an uncle to, you know, and. And certain nephews and nieces don't even know me because they think I'm evil because of, you know, these types of relationships. So that's. That's one thing.

Shelise Sola [02:31:56] Yeah, that's difficult. And that's something that I always try and speak on to our listeners or people who have never been in high demand religions is you really do lose family members, and it's so hard. And then when you have that layered on top of your family, actively saying you're led by Satan and you have the church that supports them saying that you're led by Satan. And they're, they're getting this confirmation from the church that they truly believe in. It's really difficult to permeate that. Like you, you understand why they do it, because the religion that they love and they believe in, truly and honestly is telling them that that's how they should respond to these people who have left the church.

Shelise Sola [02:32:35] So it's so difficult because you can't blame them. Yet at the same time, you want to shake them and be like, I'm a real person. I'm still great. I'm still a fun uncle. I, I'm fun to be around. I'm not gonna give you alcohol before your legal age. I'm not gonna do, I'm not gonna try and tempt you and lead you down a wrong path. I just want to love you and I just want to have a relationship with you. So I, I can understand that. And it's really difficult and I'm sorry you've had to go through that.

John Dehlin [02:32:59] Well, it wouldn't be fair if I didn't have to deal with what every other ex Mormon, you know, and ex member of a high demand religion has to deal with. So, you know, it comes to the territory, I will say I have a lot of privilege. This podcast has afforded me a lot of privilege because on every other dimension that I mentioned to you, so like identity. I know who I am more now than I ever did as a Mormon. Morality. I'm a more moral, ethical person now than I ever was as a Mormon. I have a better marriage now than I ever did while I was a Mormon.

John Dehlin [02:33:34] I'm a better parent to my kids than I ever was as a Mormon. I've got closer friends now, truer friends, deeper friendships than I ever did as a Mormon. I've got a better community now. And I'm not. I don't sweat the afterlife.

John Dehlin [02:33:48] And just most of all, I just, I love life and I love every day I wake up. So not everyone who leaves Mormonism or high demand religion is able to fill all those domains as comprehensively as I've been able to do, fortunately for me. But that's why I do what I do to help other people do that as well. Many have.

John Dehlin [02:34:12] And that's why I created the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis podcast. It's atmormonfaith crisis.com It's 70 hours of free coaching in addition to Mormon Stories podcast where you you can learn about healthy sexuality, healthy marriage, healthy parenting, identity development, stages of grief, how to communicate with believing family and friends. It offers tools and Tips and tricks for free for anyone who wants to end up up feeling like their faith crisis was a gift, not a crisis. Because a lot of. One of the biggest criticisms I get is from ex Mormons that say, stop calling it a faith crisis. It's like a truth awakening. It's like a rebirth.

Shelise Sola [02:34:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:34:57] So stop calling it a crisis. It's like the best thing that could ever happen to you. And that it doesn't feel like that when you start going through it.

Shelise Sola [02:35:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:35:04] Or at least not for all people. But absolutely, more often than not, it becomes the best thing that ever happened to you. You just have to. You just have to navigate it right. And figure out how to make it an amazing thing. But for me, it's been the biggest gift of my life, for sure.

Shelise Sola [02:35:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:35:22] And it can be that for you. And that's why I do Mormon Stories podcast. That's why I release Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis Podcast. And that's what Cold Cult to Consciousness is all about. Right?

Shelise Sola [02:35:34] Yeah. I love ending on that high note, because I was gonna go back and say, well, how are those things now that you've covered it? So thank you. You read my mind. Because it can be difficult, and I think it is a crisis initially. And then once you realize that you can have all those beautiful things outside of the church and they can be better and stronger and happier and healthier, then it does become an awakening of self when you realize, oh, wow, I have an identity besides being Mormon. I. I can connect more with people who aren't Mormon. Whereas before I was creating this wall of us versus them, I gotta convert.

Shelise Sola [02:36:07] I don't know if I really wanna be their friend, but. But I wanna bring him to the church. So it's like these false pretense friendships. So I love that you're talking about how you can get over the hurdle of the crisis and find happiness again. I think that's the biggest thing, and that's what I wanna offer our listeners here, is that there is hope and there are resources.

Shelise Sola [02:36:27] So let's get into our Linda Listen moment. I think you wanted to go more of, like, the inspirational route, so it could be a sassy statement to. To someone who's pissed you off or can be some words of advice for our listeners here.

John Dehlin [02:36:40] Yeah. All right, Linda, listen. This faith crisis you're going through, if you're going through it, is a gift. It's the greatest gift of your life. And even though it's incredibly painful and you will sacrifice relationships and you will grieve it, and you will suffer. In many ways, the gift that comes out on the other side truly is the best friendships, the best marriages, the best parental relationships, the best identity and the, the most joy you could ever imagine if you'll just lean into this and experience it and learn and grow and find the right mentor or the right support to help you get there. But the biggest gift of a Mormon faith crisis or of faith crisis out of a high demand religion, the biggest gift is the rest of your life.

John Dehlin [02:37:43] Because you, we, I, all of us, were captivated under undue influence by false pretenses. That's just a fact. We were. And so when you escape from a high demand religion, you are given an incredible amount of time and energy and resources that you get to spend and money that you get to spend exactly as you want to give to the best charity that you can have, the best relationships that you can cut, cut people out of your life that aren't doing you any good service, and then draw to yourself relationships that are going to edify and strengthen you. And I just, I just promise you that if you seek support and lean into this and most importantly, get connected to yourself and learn to tap into your own wisdom and to your own sense of right and wrong and truth.

John Dehlin [02:38:44] Joy that you cannot imagine awaits on the other side of what feels like a terrible crisis. So. So don't give up and seek the joy.

Shelise Sola [02:38:58] Beautiful. Beautiful.

John Dehlin [02:39:00] That too long?

Shelise Sola [02:39:00] No, it's great. Longer the better. All right, do you have any final thoughts before we throw out all of your handles in ways that people can find you?

Closing Thanks and How to Find the Podcasts

John Dehlin [02:39:08] Yeah. Send her money. Sign up for her Patreon. Go to Colts to consciousness@patreon.com patreon.com Coles2Connectness.

Shelise Sola [02:39:16] I gotta shout out Walker. He's my newest patron. Thank you, Walker.

John Dehlin [02:39:20] Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, just. I think I've said enough. But I, I will say I. I really mean it when I say you are very talented. And I think, I hope you continue because you're. You're already going gangbusters for only doing this four or five months. But I hope you eclipse me. And I think there's a good chance that you will. So I hope you'll keep going. And I'm just so thrilled you're in the space.

Shelise Sola [02:39:46] Wow, John, thank you. I mean, I look up to you so much and what you've been able to build and your channel, and there's been so many times where Jonathan and I are having conversation. I'm like, what does John do? I need to see how he does things. Because you really created something pretty amazing that everyone can attest to, the ways that you've helped them out of their faith crisis and into finding who they really are. So the, the respect is mutual and I really appreciate you taking the time to sit down with me. We've been going for a while and I'm just thrilled and honored that everyone can have this information for themselves. So before we go, how can people find you? What are things that you're up to? Plug any events or things you want people to come and see.

John Dehlin [02:40:25] All right, so the best, the best way you could support us is by going to YouTube and subscribing to the Mormon Stories Podcast YouTube channel. We're trying to reach a hundred thousand subscribers, which for us is a huge milestone.

Shelise Sola [02:40:36] Yeah, it's huge.

John Dehlin [02:40:37] We've been doing this for a long time and we're just going to in the next couple months. So please go subscribe to us there. Please follow us or subscribe to us on Tik Tok. Our TikTok channel is over 200,000.

Shelise Sola [02:40:48] Yeah, you guys are killing.

John Dehlin [02:40:49] We're over 210 now. And Tik Tok is like, it's like fentanyl. It's like crack. I mean, it's, it's just like, it's social media on steroids.

Shelise Sola [02:41:00] It's the wild, wild west of social media.

John Dehlin [02:41:02] Well, yeah, but it's also like, there's. Where else can you create a one minute minute thing? Spend a couple minutes to create a one minute piece of content that's going to reach 6 million people? Like, it's, it's amplified in just unbelievable ways. I've been doing podcasting for what, 18 years and nowadays I walk around Utah and people are like, are you the Tick Tocker? I've been doing Tick tock for like 15 minutes and people are reckoning. And I've been doing podcasting for 18 years and people are recognizing me as a TikTok talker. Yeah, that's how powerful TikTok is. So anyway, subscribe to us on Mormon Stories podcast TikTok channel. Please follow us and subscribe to us on Facebook More Stories podcast channel and on Instagram. We've, we're on all those platforms. We love it when people are able and willing to donate. Become a monthly donor.

Shelise Sola [02:41:52] Send this guy some money.

John Dehlin [02:41:53] There you go. You go to more stories.org and then click on the donate button. Become a monthly donor. Donor. We're transparent in our finances and we, we try to spend every dollar supporting people who are in need. So after you support close to consciousness financially, become a donor to Mormon stories, podcast and subscribe and follow and then share our content. Spread the word, because word of mouth is a great way to get this stuff out there.

Shelise Sola [02:42:24] Yeah. Awesome. Beautiful. Well, thank you so much again, John. It's been a pleasure getting to interview you and thank you so much to our listeners. And until next time, follow your highest excitement, be conscious and be well.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.