Introduction and Overview of the Episode

John Dehlin [00:00:31] So I definitely want to end by doing your story. But what's occurring to me is a middle piece of this interview where we talk about where you paint the picture of the modern orthodox Jehovah's Witness life, what their life is like and what their teachings are like, so that we can set up what Jehovah's Witness orthodoxy is in the modern era, so that then we can talk about your apostasy. Does that make sense?

Lloyd Evans [00:01:04] It does. Although I don't quite understand the term Jehovah's Witness orthodoxy because there is only Jehovah's Witness orthodoxy. It's not like there's an alternative. You can't be like an unorthodox Jehovah.

John Dehlin [00:01:21] I get it. And it's the same thing with Mormonism. I think we have introduced unorthodoxy to Mormonism. Just Mormon stories, me, whatever. Progressive Mormonism has kind of emerged.

Lloyd Evans [00:01:32] I see.

John Dehlin [00:01:33] But, but, but, but, but, but an orthodox Mormon would never ever even know what the term orthodox meant or. And they would never have heard that word ever used. So, so I understand what you're saying. So since there's no such thing as progressive or liberal Jehovah's Witness ism, what would I call it? Like there's Mormonism. What's the equivalent term for the Jehovah's Witness movement?

Lloyd Evans [00:01:57] I don't think it's just Jehovah's Witnesses.

John Dehlin [00:02:00] Yeah, well, as people, not as a movement.

Lloyd Evans [00:02:04] I don't think there is such a thing as Jehovah's Witnessism. No.

John Dehlin [00:02:07] Okay. Okay.

Lloyd Evans [00:02:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:09] Okay. So thank you for correcting me there. You're either Jehovah's Witness or you're not. Alright, so, so let me reframe that. What I'd like to do is, is spend some time discussing what it is to be a Jehovah's Witness in the modern context so that then we can discuss your apostasy.

Lloyd Evans [00:02:32] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:02:33] Is that okay?

Lloyd Evans [00:02:34] Sure.

Being Born and Raised a Jehovah's Witness

John Dehlin [00:02:35] All right. So a Jehovah's Witness is born. Let's start there.

Lloyd Evans [00:02:41] Wow, profound.

John Dehlin [00:02:43] What happens?

Lloyd Evans [00:02:46] Do you want me to go through the whole birth process?

John Dehlin [00:02:50] No, no. So like they're normally born to two Jehovah's Witness parents, right?

Lloyd Evans [00:02:55] Yeah, yeah. They're indoctrinated, same as probably with Mormons.

John Dehlin [00:02:59] So is there a, is there a birth ceremony or ritual?

Lloyd Evans [00:03:03] No, no.

John Dehlin [00:03:04] Okay, so you're born, you're born the child of a Jehovah's Witness parents.

Lloyd Evans [00:03:08] Yeah, there's no such thing.

John Dehlin [00:03:10] What is your upbringing like as a child? What happens?

Lloyd Evans [00:03:16] So from the moment that you can hold conversations or receive instructions. You're indoctrinated with the teachings. You're taken along to meetings when you're a baby, and that continues into when you're a child and so forth. You're wheeled around people's houses in the preaching work when again, when you're an infant. So by the time you're into your teens, all you've ever known is the life of a Jehovah's Witness. That's all you can remember? Yeah.

Weekly Meetings and Congregational Life

John Dehlin [00:03:54] So what are the main meetings that a Jehovah's Witness attends on a weekly or monthly or yearly basis?

Lloyd Evans [00:04:00] So there are two meetings a week. It used to be three. It's now two. So there's like a midweek meeting for us, it used to be on a Thursday, but it really depends on what the local arrangements are. And there's also a weekend meeting, which. The preference is that it's on a Sunday. But again, it depends on how many congregations are sharing a facility, what time they'll have it. But it's two meetings per week. And then you will have.

John Dehlin [00:04:34] How long are those meetings?

Lloyd Evans [00:04:37] Just under two hours.

John Dehlin [00:04:38] What are they called?

Lloyd Evans [00:04:41] Well, the meetings have different names, so there's like meetings within meetings, if that makes sense. It's easier to just refer to it as the midweek meeting, but they have, I think, the Christian Life and Ministry meeting and the service meeting or the midweek meeting. And then at the weekend, they have what's called a public talk. So basically, the midweek meeting is kind of like a members only affair, whereas the weekend meeting is, at least in theory, supposed to be for bringing interested ones along. So that there's like a more generic talk that will speak to the audience as though they might not necessarily be Jehovah's Witnesses. And that's called the public talk. And following the public talk.

John Dehlin [00:05:26] Okay, wait, and that would be a sermon. A sermon.

Lloyd Evans [00:05:29] Half hour sermon. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:30] Would there be songs?

Lloyd Evans [00:05:32] Yes, there's songs beginning, middle, and end of every meeting.

John Dehlin [00:05:36] And would they open with prayer and close with prayer?

Lloyd Evans [00:05:38] Indeed, yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:40] And is there some sort of sacrament or blood and, like, bread and water? Bread.

Lloyd Evans [00:05:44] No, blood is spilled during the meeting, I'm glad to report. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:48] But there's no equivalent to a communion or a sacrament.

Lloyd Evans [00:05:52] No.

John Dehlin [00:05:52] Okay. All right.

Lloyd Evans [00:05:56] So they have the. After the public talk, they have a study of the Watchtower magazine. So they literally study an article from the Watchtower magazine.

John Dehlin [00:06:05] And that's like a Sunday school format where people are. Yeah, there's a teacher and people are asking questions.

Lloyd Evans [00:06:10] And yeah, they have the. The speaker goes. The speaker kind of orchestrates the. The lesson, for want of a better word. And he has a reader next to him who reads the paragraphs. And the reader will read a paragraph and then the conductor will ask the question to the audience, and then the audience will raise their hands and try to rephrase the paragraph that's just been read to them in a slightly different way or give their thoughts on what's been read to them. But it must conform with the teachings.

John Dehlin [00:06:39] And are the children or youth peeled off into their own little meetings?

Lloyd Evans [00:06:44] No, they participate with the adults.

John Dehlin [00:06:46] Oh, wow. So is that noisy with kids screaming and children screaming?

Lloyd Evans [00:06:52] It can be. It's more a problem if it's like, material dealing with masturbation or sexual issues children still have to sit through regardless of what the meeting's about.

John Dehlin [00:07:03] You know, so sometimes there's adult content,

Lloyd Evans [00:07:06] sometimes it's not age appropriate for children.

John Dehlin [00:07:09] Okay. But also just, you know, in Mormonism, kids split off and sing kid songs and learn kid lessons and, you know, and sort of commune with other kids in a social way. So that's the difference between Mormonism and Joe's Witness on Sunday, at least.

Lloyd Evans [00:07:27] No, that doesn't happen. And then twice a year, there's what's called circuit assemblies, which is where you have a number of congregations meeting together. A circuit is like a grouping of congregations that are visited by what's called a circuit overseer, who ensures compliance with all the congregations with what the organization requires of them. And he also assists in appointing elders and that kind of thing. And so twice a year, these congregations all meet together and have, like, a program called. Is it still called a circuit assembly? They keep changing the names.

John Dehlin [00:08:07] So these are regional conferences, so to speak?

Lloyd Evans [00:08:10] Kind of. But yeah, they are regional. Yeah. So a circuit is, like, geographically chosen, so congregations that neighbour each other. And then once a year they have what's called a regional convention, which is a number of circuits, if that makes sense. So, for example, when I was growing up, circuit assembly was a thousand people. Let's say 10 or 11 congregations. And whereas a regional convention, or as we called them back then, district convention was say 12 to 13,000 people. And it was, again, a number of circuits meeting together.

John Dehlin [00:08:50] Okay. So we have a ward as a congregation. A stake is like 10 congregations.

Lloyd Evans [00:08:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:56] In an area, let's just say would be 10 or 20 stakes. So, so this level of bureaucracy, and you're saying you meet at sort of that area level annually for a large, what, Annual conference.

Lloyd Evans [00:09:11] So it's three days, a three day meeting. And it would typically be at like a sports arena or a sports venue, although they are starting to make these events smaller and kind of more fragmented. Just. Okay, the same program.

John Dehlin [00:09:27] So it would have been like Southern, like give us the sense of a size of a, like in terms of cities we would know, or states we would know, or you know, parts of the country we would know. Pick up, pick a geographical area for Jehovah's Witness.

Baptism, Elders, and Organizational Structure

Lloyd Evans [00:09:42] And the problem I have is I grew up in the uk so it's different because in. There are eight and a half million Jehovah's Witnesses and over a million of them are in the United States. So there's a greater density of Jehovah's Witnesses in the United States than where I grew up in the, in the uk.

John Dehlin [00:10:00] Okay, so for the uk, your, your local congregation would have been what?

Lloyd Evans [00:10:05] Where my local congregation was Wilmslow, when there were about 100 publishers in Wilmslow, which is just south of Manchester.

John Dehlin [00:10:11] What's a publisher?

Lloyd Evans [00:10:14] Sorry? A publisher is a Jehovah's Witness who preaches, who reports the time that he spends preaching.

John Dehlin [00:10:23] And that's kind of like an official designation of a legitimate member.

Lloyd Evans [00:10:28] Yeah. So you could be, for example, an unbaptized publisher, which means that you report your time preaching, but you're just not baptized yet. And then when you get baptized, you're just known as a publisher.

John Dehlin [00:10:40] Does baptism happen at a certain age for a, a born Jehovah's Witness?

Lloyd Evans [00:10:46] It's. There's no minimum age, although the youngest age that is reported in the publications is seven. So from, from seven years on your. It's acceptable to be baptized as a Jehovah's Witness, even though this entails committing yourself to the organization for life.

John Dehlin [00:11:10] Yeah, I get it. Yeah. And it's. It's boys and girls, right?

Lloyd Evans [00:11:13] Indeed. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:14] And is it by immersion?

Lloyd Evans [00:11:16] Full water immersion? Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:18] And is. And it. Does an elder do it?

Lloyd Evans [00:11:21] Usually it would be elders who do it, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:25] Would your dad do it?

Lloyd Evans [00:11:27] Would my dad do it?

John Dehlin [00:11:28] No, but like Mormonism, generally you're baptized by your dad, unless there's something wrong with your dad.

Lloyd Evans [00:11:35] Well, only if your dad happens to be one of the men who are appointed to do that role. It's not like you're entitled to be baptized by your dad, if that makes sense. So there are specific men who are chosen to stand in the pool and baptize people.

John Dehlin [00:11:51] Oh, okay. So there's a designated group of baptizing men.

Lloyd Evans [00:11:55] Indeed.

John Dehlin [00:11:56] Okay. And tell us what the role of the elder is. You said that leaders from up above come to these annual or semi annual conferences and are involved in the elder selection process.

Lloyd Evans [00:12:10] Yeah. Although the elder selection isn't done at the assembly, it's done during their visit to the individual congregation. So during a 12 month period, they will visit each congregation twice again just to make sure that everything is being done according to what the organisation expects. And during that visit, they will say to the elders, do you have any recommended brothers for appointment and are there any that need to be deleted? And same thing for ministerial servants, which is like a role just underneath elder. You could call it like a deacon position.

John Dehlin [00:12:50] Okay, so you. Okay. What do you call a local congregation again?

Lloyd Evans [00:12:56] A congregation, let's say.

John Dehlin [00:12:58] So congregation would have on average, how many elders?

Lloyd Evans [00:13:01] Just have a minimum of three elders, but the most I ever served in was a congregation with 18. So it really varies depending. Okay, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:12] And they're always men.

Lloyd Evans [00:13:14] Always men, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:15] Okay, so no female ordination.

Lloyd Evans [00:13:17] That's a big difference with Mormons because with Mormons, almost everyone who's a male is kind of an elder or those are an adult. Yeah, yeah. Whereas it's a far more exclusive position with Jehovah's Witnesses. It's like.

John Dehlin [00:13:32] And then is there a pat. Is there a designated pastor for a congregation or a priest or anything like that?

Lloyd Evans [00:13:37] No, although there is a coordinator of the body of elders who it could be argued has slightly more power than the rest of the elders because he's responsible for coordinating meetings and corresponding, receiving correspondence from the branch and that kind of thing.

John Dehlin [00:13:54] And is an elder ordained with the laying on of hands?

Lloyd Evans [00:13:59] No, they pray. They pray and they have a conversation and that's how the Holy Spirit selects elders.

John Dehlin [00:14:09] Selects them?

Lloyd Evans [00:14:10] Yeah, they say that elders are appointed by Holy Spirit, even though it's literally just a case of them praying and having a conversation.

John Dehlin [00:14:22] But I'm sure there's a vetting process where it's like, is he a sexual predator or is he rich or is he smart or is he a good leader?

Lloyd Evans [00:14:30] The vetting process for predators is, are you a predator? Yes or no? I'm being serious.

John Dehlin [00:14:36] You guys have a problem, like we do, of ecclesiastical abuse, right?

Lloyd Evans [00:14:40] Yeah, sure, Big problem. But I was an elder for a year before I left and that was one of the questions was, have you ever molested children? And it was just a yes or no answer.

John Dehlin [00:14:53] Okay, okay.

Lloyd Evans [00:14:56] No.

John Dehlin [00:14:56] By the way, you said no.

Lloyd Evans [00:15:00] I can confirm that I said no. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:02] Okay, well, all that means is you said no.

Lloyd Evans [00:15:05] Indeed. Exactly. I could have just said anything, couldn't I? Especially. Especially with so much power up for grabs, you know?

John Dehlin [00:15:13] Right. Do Joe's Do Job's Witnesses pay money to the church.

Lloyd Evans [00:15:20] Yes. But they don't have tithing. So designated percentage. You could in theory get all the way to the top of the organization and not donate a single cent. Because it's just assumed. It's just assumed that you're donating. You're not audited, you're not checked to find out whether you are donating or not or how much. It's just assumed that you are.

John Dehlin [00:15:43] And it's not tracked how much money you pay.

Lloyd Evans [00:15:45] Yeah, you're told that you should. You're repeatedly told, in fact, that you should, but you're not tithed. And it's not tracked how much money you pay.

John Dehlin [00:15:54] Okay, but members do pay a lot.

Lloyd Evans [00:16:00] Well, it depends on their circumstances. But I would imagine that if a member were to pay a lot of money, then they would, especially if they were a male, they would probably find their opportunities slightly. Slightly improved.

John Dehlin [00:16:14] Yeah, I get it.

Lloyd Evans [00:16:16] For donating so much. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:18] Okay. How. Okay, you were saying that your local congregation maybe had a hundred adults, basically,

Lloyd Evans [00:16:31] or it doesn't now, but it did back then. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:34] And then. And that would have been called a congregation, and that would have been in a city or in a part of a city or in a town or whatever.

Lloyd Evans [00:16:43] Yeah. So Wilmslow was just like a sleepy suburb on the outskirts of Manchester. There were. Let me think, how many congregations were there in Manchester? There was, I would say something like 40 congregations in the Manchester area.

John Dehlin [00:16:58] Something like that. And so the next level up above a congregation, again is what is a circuit? And the circuit would have had how

Lloyd Evans [00:17:08] many congregations typically it would have had, Let me think. It would have had about 20 congregations in a circuit.

John Dehlin [00:17:18] Okay. So maybe half of Manchester.

Lloyd Evans [00:17:20] Yeah, let's say a quarter of Manchester was a circuit.

John Dehlin [00:17:24] And then a level above a circuit is a what?

Lloyd Evans [00:17:26] No, hang on. It would have had. It would need to have had more congregations in Manchester. That's it. I'm thinking of Manchester. But my circuit included congregations from outside Manchester, if that makes sense.

John Dehlin [00:17:36] Okay.

Lloyd Evans [00:17:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:37] So the level above a circuit is

Lloyd Evans [00:17:39] a what it used to be called a district, but they've since got rid of that level. So it's just circuits now.

John Dehlin [00:17:48] But the district would have been how many circuits or how many total congregations?

Lloyd Evans [00:17:52] It honestly varied depending on the locality.

John Dehlin [00:17:56] Is there an annual conference or semi. Annual conference where all Jehovah's Witnesses are hearing from the council of Elders or the governing body or whoever the top leaders are.

Lloyd Evans [00:18:11] Yes and no. They have what's called an annual meeting, but it's not for all Jehovah's Witnesses or. How can I put this? All Jehovah's Witnesses get to see what's said a number of months later when the videos finally get released on the, on the website. But they. I can, I can think of only a couple of occasions where it's been streamed out live so that people could tune in. It's mostly a case of them having the meeting and then months later the videos are available on the website.

John Dehlin [00:18:43] Now do the elders or the mid level administrators all go to some central location for that meeting?

Lloyd Evans [00:18:49] Not all elders know it. The. The meeting is mostly attended just by people who are working for Watchtower at the American facilities.

John Dehlin [00:19:00] It's like a corporate headquarters meeting.

Lloyd Evans [00:19:02] And even not all of them meet that. It's like the cream of the crop, get an invite to the annual meeting.

John Dehlin [00:19:10] So would there be like the head of Jehovah's Witness in the UK position?

Lloyd Evans [00:19:16] No, it's not. They don't have delegates from other countries, as far as I'm aware. It's just a case of. I think they have. There's like a legal element to it. It's called the annual meeting because it had a corporate role going back in the organization's history to, for example, selecting the board and that kind of thing. And I think there is still that element to it, but it's done very secretively so that all most Witnesses know about the annual meeting now is the talks that are given by the governing body in which they will typically reveal new understandings of Scripture or release new publications.

John Dehlin [00:19:56] Okay, okay. So back to the life of someone who's raised Jehovah's Witness. So you're going to all these meetings as a young, as a baby and as a young child, starting at the age 7, you would get baptized. Is that a big special? What?

Lloyd Evans [00:20:14] I got baptized at 11. Seven is very rare.

John Dehlin [00:20:17] What took you so long? Four years. What were you doing?

Lloyd Evans [00:20:20] I was told that I was young when I was. This is the thing. It really does vary from congregation to congregation and from in some ways, parent to parent as to how, how these things are interpreted. Seven is extremely rare, although it does happen, but it's not, I would say 11 is more common. But it's also. You hear of young Witnesses getting baptized, say 13, 14, 15 years old. So.

John Dehlin [00:20:53] And is it kind of when the kid kind of feels ready and when the parents feel like the Kid's ready.

Lloyd Evans [00:20:57] It's supposed to be when the kid feels ready. And I can remember my parents saying to me, oh, you know, are you just doing this to compete with James? Because James was my friend and he just got baptized the year before, and it was totally to compete with James. But I was like, no, no, no. It's because I really want to be a Jehovah's Witness. And. But what you don't realize is that you are very much doing it to make your parents proud. And also because you're taught from as young as you, is from your earliest memories, that the only way of surviving Armageddon is to be a Jehovah's Witness. So it's like, you know, your choice is, well, death or, you know, get baptized. Which is it to be? You know?

John Dehlin [00:21:43] So, okay, that makes sense. And I can see something powerful about that in Mormonism. It's just you turn it, you get baptized. That process of having you feel like you really made a conscious, autonomous decision, even if it's totally conditioned and socially constructed, that extra step of having you feel like it was time for you, maybe there's something powerful or special about that at least. It's interesting.

Lloyd Evans [00:22:16] Yeah, it's a big deal getting baptized. And frankly, you don't realize just how big of a deal it is until you find out it's no longer true. Because that's when you realize it's your baptism at which you pass the point of no return. You are held to that decision for life. And I am now being shunned because of a decision I made when I was 11 years old, when I was too young to get a job, too young to sign a contract, too young to buy a house. But apparently I was old enough to know what my beliefs would be as an adult. And I'm held to that decision to this day.

John Dehlin [00:22:58] Totally. Okay, so what are the other rite of passages? As you're growing up in the church, are there other rituals or rite of passages in addition to baptism?

Lloyd Evans [00:23:09] Not really. Not really. But it really depends on whether you're a man or a woman, because it's a very male centric organization, as I understand it is with mums as well. So my rites of passage, you could say, were being appointed as a ministerial servant at the age of 19. That's a big deal. That's like the step below being an elder.

John Dehlin [00:23:35] But that's not a missionary.

Lloyd Evans [00:23:37] No, no, it's. It's purely. It's again, it's like an assistant to the elders.

John Dehlin [00:23:42] Yeah.

Lloyd Evans [00:23:44] And another thing that is you can do as. As a. As a male or female is join as a regular pioneer. And that means that you pledge to do 70 hours per month in preaching work indefinitely. And that's. That's a rite of passage that men or women can. Can have. Yeah.

Door-to-Door Evangelism and Missionary Work

John Dehlin [00:24:07] Okay, so one of the things Jehovah's Witnesses are known for is this missionary work. Right? Talk about what that is.

Lloyd Evans [00:24:17] Well, when you say missionary work, that has a very specific meaning for Jehovah's Witnesses. So a missionary is literally someone who is assigned by the organization to go and preach in a foreign country, typically a country where there aren't many Jehovah's Witnesses, and there's a need for them to go out to that territory, and they receive special training directly from Watchtower to do that. But you could say the evangelical element is expected of all Witnesses, not just missionaries.

John Dehlin [00:24:51] Okay, so is there an age where someone gets called as a missionary formally? Is that person married or.

Lloyd Evans [00:25:00] When you join the Witnesses, and indeed, when you're born into the organization, you reach a point where you. Well, first of all, you're taken out in the preaching work. And if you want to preach yourself, you go through a series of questions in which you are. If you're successful, which you always are, you become an unbaptized publisher, which, again, means that you are allowed to preach with the congregation, and you report your time to the elders every month, as all Witnesses do. So that's the step before baptism. So you become an unbaptized publisher, which means you can start preaching and then you get baptized.

John Dehlin [00:25:42] And I've heard it takes like a year to convert to Jehovah's Witness. They don't just let you in after two weeks, like Mormonism.

Lloyd Evans [00:25:50] Yeah, that's. That sounds about right. It's. They don't make it. They don't make it that easy, although it's certainly easier than leaving. You study the Bible. You don't really study the Bible. You study a book that's been written about the Bible by Watchtower, which, again, has the kind of question answer format of a Watchtower. So the paragraphs are all numbered with a question corresponding with each paragraph. And when you take the study, the person taking the study will ask the question that's been written out at the foot of the page. And your answer must correspond almost exactly with what's been said in the paragraph that you've just read.

Lloyd Evans [00:26:35] And so you go through that process for a number of months. It could be a year, it could be two years, could be three years. And when you decide that you want to become a Jehovah's Witness, you will go through a series of questions.

Lloyd Evans [00:26:50] And after you've answered those questions, which basically affirm that your beliefs are in agreement with the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses, it will be arranged for you to get baptized.

John Dehlin [00:27:03] So they tell you what the questions are, and they tell you what the answers to the questions are. And if you can provide the answers to the questions that they provided.

Lloyd Evans [00:27:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:13] Then. Then you get let in after.

Lloyd Evans [00:27:15] No creativity allowed.

John Dehlin [00:27:17] Right. Okay. All right. That's how someone converts. Okay. And so does every legitimate member. Becoming a formal missionary. We'll talk about evangelism separate. Who is it? Is it something that single people do? Women can do this formal missionary position. I'm just curious.

Lloyd Evans [00:27:43] Okay, so the formal missionary position. The missionary position, we've started a completely different kind of path at this point. Right. So the missionary status is reserved for a very, very small, you could say, elite number of Witnesses. We're talking about in the whole world. There's probably only a few thousand out of eight and a half million who are missionaries. And they commit to doing, I think it's 120 hours per month. And they receive a small stipend from Watchtower, and they typically operate out of facilities that are operated in that country by the organization. So, yeah, it's a very exclusive role, but it doesn't necessarily give you any special. Special status in terms of. It's not like you are perceived as being like the local equivalent of the governing body. It's just literally that you are committed to doing more preaching than anyone else.

John Dehlin [00:28:49] Okay, so talk about evangelism in a Jehovah's Witness family, an average Joseph's Witness family.

Lloyd Evans [00:28:57] How.

John Dehlin [00:28:57] What does that look like? How does it happen? Because what I've seen, or just I'm walking through a neighborhood, let's just say, on a Saturday, and I see all these boys and girls, young men, young women, adults dressed up nicely, and they're going door to door handing out magazines. Like, that's what comes to my mind. And I've seen that here and there. How does that happen?

Lloyd Evans [00:29:19] So, yeah, you again. You report your time every month. And it's a little bit of a Jehovah's Witnesses would deny this, but it's kind of like a competition as to who can do the most hours and who is therefore the most spiritual. And so at the end of every month, you tell your appointed elder how many hours you've done, how many magazines you've placed, how Many videos you've shown people, and all of these statistics get added up and the records are kept on you. And you would typically aim to do at least the average of your congregation if you're doing less than the average, Especially if you're.

Lloyd Evans [00:30:04] You could in theory do one hour per month. And that wouldn't. That would enable you to still call yourself a publisher. But if you're only doing one hour per month, you're going to get visited by the elders and they're going to want to know why are you only doing one hour per month? So you would typically aim to do, let's say, 10 hours in a month. And whereas pioneers would be doing 70.

John Dehlin [00:30:28] Is there a minimum age where you start doing this? Get a 5 year old, do it 7 year old.

Lloyd Evans [00:30:35] I think I can well imagine there being five year old unbaptized publishers.

John Dehlin [00:30:38] Yeah, but when does it generally. When did you start? When does it generally start happening?

Lloyd Evans [00:30:45] I can't remember how old I was. I probably would have been something like, let's say eight or nine when I was an unbaptized publisher.

John Dehlin [00:30:52] Is it like dad and mom wake up on a Saturday and say, get dressed, we're going evangelizing. Would it be done in families or in groups?

Lloyd Evans [00:31:00] Congregation meet as a group at a location. So it would typically, typically be someone's house, although it could be the Kingdom hall, depending on what the arrangements are for your group. And you, you go to the meeting, which is just a short, let's say five or ten minute meeting along the lines of, here's what we're going to be offering people today. Here's the suggested presentation. And now we're going to assign who works with who. And these are the streets that we're going to be working. And these are the numbers that we're not to call on because they've asked us not to call at these addresses and that kind of thing.

John Dehlin [00:31:42] And is it. Do you go in twos, two by two, door to door?

Lloyd Evans [00:31:45] Yes. Well, unless there's an odd number, in which case one person ends up working by themselves. But the aim is for it to be in pairs. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:54] Okay. And you do keep track of every house and which houses have said do not visit.

Lloyd Evans [00:32:00] Yeah, we allow people. I say we Jehovah's Witnesses allow people to request not to be called on, at which point they get registered as a do not call. But it's not unheard of for people to just forget, so they get called on anyway. But the aim at least is that they don't get Called on.

John Dehlin [00:32:17] Has it evolved? Did it traditionally. Was it a big neighborhood book and that over time, did that converted to a computer, a centralized computer system to track all this?

Lloyd Evans [00:32:27] No, it's just a piece of paper. Usually it's just every. The territory of a congregation is divided into maps. So let's say three or four blocks is a map. Okay. And so your map will be on a card, usually in a clear plastic sleeve. And on one side of the sleeve, there's a piece of paper that says do not calls. And it will have all the numbers and the addresses.

John Dehlin [00:32:55] Okay. And are you pretty much always visiting the neighborhoods in your congregation's area?

Lloyd Evans [00:33:06] Yes. Only ever? Well, when you preach with the congregation, it's obviously in your congregation's area, but there's nothing against you. If you have some friends in a neighboring congregation, you could, for example, join them on their territory and still get to count your time and include that in the time that you report at the end of the month.

John Dehlin [00:33:23] But each congregation has a geographical boundary,

Lloyd Evans [00:33:27] let's just say boundaries. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:29] And they're primarily responsible for the missionary work within that boundary.

Lloyd Evans [00:33:33] Indeed. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:34] And then everybody's reporting their hours.

Lloyd Evans [00:33:37] Yeah, Every. Every hour. And every placement gets reported and it gets stored.

John Dehlin [00:33:41] And every video shown. And a placement is a. Of a book or a magazine.

Lloyd Evans [00:33:46] A book or magazine. They might now include leaflets, but yeah, it was. It was recorded slightly differently when I was a witness. But they've since changed it to include showing people videos on their doorstep, which is now something witnesses do.

John Dehlin [00:34:00] And do they try and sell the magazine subscription or sell the Bible or just give it away for free?

Lloyd Evans [00:34:06] Distributed for free? Yeah. Or on a. On the understanding that people can donate if they want to.

John Dehlin [00:34:14] Okay. And there's also an accompanying invitation to come to church on Sunday.

Lloyd Evans [00:34:21] Oh, that would have to. The conversation would have to go really well to get that far. But yeah, there are special campaigns, for example, during the memorial I mentioned before about, like the sacrament, which is once a year, they'll have like a special campaign to invite people to the memorial. And there's a talk after the memorial, usually the week following the memorial that people are invited to. And whenever there's a convention people, there's usually a campaign to go out and give leaflets advertising the convention. So, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:55] Are there a set of formal, like, courses or. We call them discussions. Let's just say you knock on someone's door, they let you in, they receive a book. Is it a Bible?

Lloyd Evans [00:35:10] No, they don't know. If the aim is to study with them, they will Receive a book called what does the Bible Really Teach?

John Dehlin [00:35:20] Okay. Or a Watchtower magazine.

Lloyd Evans [00:35:24] Right, Or a Watchtower magazine. But if they're receiving magazines, it's with the aim of getting them onto receiving the book, which again, is the question answer format that I told you about, because you can only when you study the Bible with Jehovah's Witnesses, you can't get baptized unless you study this book called what does the Bible Really Teach? Which has the paragraphs and the questions.

John Dehlin [00:35:45] So it starts with the magazines, then it's that book.

Lloyd Evans [00:35:48] Yeah. The aim will always be to get people onto the Teach book. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:52] Okay. And so let's just say we knock on someone's door, they let us in, we talk, they take the magazine, there's a conversation initially, and then is that person invited to reach back out. Like, here's my phone number if you, if you want to learn more, you know, we'll come back and visit you kind of thing.

Lloyd Evans [00:36:12] They are stalked. So if you and I called on someone and it went well and they took a magazine, I would, after the doors closed, you and I would disappear around the corner. And without that person's permission, we would make a handwritten record of what the comb, how the conversation went, what the person's name is, what his dog's called, does he have children, what were his main objections, or what's his religion, what are his views. And all of this information would be recorded with the view of calling on him again, usually within two weeks, but it could be a week. And so the aim would be to get him receiving publications on a regular basis. And those visits where we give him, say, the latest magazine would be opportunities to try and encourage him to start a Bible study study.

John Dehlin [00:37:06] So you wouldn't set an appointment, you just show up again and say, hey, we're back.

Lloyd Evans [00:37:09] Yeah. It's only when he agrees to a Bible study that we would settle on an appointment. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:15] And it's not on a Bible study. It's studying the book about the Bible.

Lloyd Evans [00:37:19] Indeed. Yeah, The Bible study.

John Dehlin [00:37:20] Okay, that's interesting. Okay. And so. And so this person's showing interest, they eventually they get visited more, they start studying the magazine together and then eventually goes to study the book.

Lloyd Evans [00:37:36] Indeed. The aim is always to get them onto the Teach book. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:40] How often is the magazine released a new edition of the magazine?

Lloyd Evans [00:37:44] It used to be a Watchtower and an awake twice a month. But it's now more complicated than that. It's. Let me think. I think it's like six public watchtowers and six Public Awakes throughout the year.

John Dehlin [00:38:00] What's Awake?

Lloyd Evans [00:38:02] So the Awake is the partner magazine to the Watchtower, but they've. Because they've cut down on printing. It used to be that it was just the Watchtower and the Awake magazine, but they now have a public Watchtower magazine that gets offered to the public, which is just very watered down and intended to promote the religion to outsiders. And a more formal Watchtower magazine that is for people who are already indoctrinated.

John Dehlin [00:38:29] So. And again, what's. What is. Why does he. Why does Awake exist when there's the Watchtower?

Lloyd Evans [00:38:35] You'll have to ask them. I guess when I was in the Awake was like the more, shall we say, the more universally appealing of the two magazines because it was dealing more with world events and, you know, animal conservation and how to deal with poverty and that kind of thing, whereas the Watchtower was always more theological and Bible based and that kind of thing.

John Dehlin [00:39:04] Okay, so this evangelism is probably a really central part of your upbringing as Jehovah's Witness, is that right?

Lloyd Evans [00:39:14] You can't be a Jehovah's Witness unless you are spending at least some time every month doing the preaching work. And all Jehovah's Witnesses are considered ministers. If you, if you are Jehovah's Witness, you are a minister, and that involves preaching.

John Dehlin [00:39:31] Okay. And the term publisher doesn't have to

Lloyd Evans [00:39:35] be door to door. It could be standing next to carts. That's another new thing that they've brought in since I was a member.

John Dehlin [00:39:41] So the term publisher means what if you're a publisher? It means.

Lloyd Evans [00:39:45] It means that you report time every month.

John Dehlin [00:39:48] Okay.

Lloyd Evans [00:39:50] You report what preaching you've done, and your preaching is recognized by the congregation.

John Dehlin [00:39:57] Okay. All right. So what are, like Mormons have what's called the plan of salvation, which is like where you were before you came to earth, why you're here, you know, where you're going when you die, and kind of the different levels of heaven and what you have to do to get there. There's kind of that discussion. There's kind of the discussion of what it takes to be a member, and then there's the discussion of kind of the main teachings of Jesus and the Bible and Joseph Smith. Can you take us. Can we spend. Can we spend a little time talking about what those are?

Core Beliefs, Salvation, and Theology

Lloyd Evans [00:40:37] When you say discussions, do you mean like formal courses?

John Dehlin [00:40:44] Let me just. Let's just say it this way. What are the main principles and behaviors and teachings that you're going to learn from the evangelizers? That show up. What are the main tenets of your faith?

Lloyd Evans [00:41:01] Well, they are going to. They're going to want to spell out what the basic theology is and get you to agree to it. So they're going to want you to agree that, for example, the soul isn't immortal. They're going to want you to agree that there is no hell. They're going to want you to agree that blood.

John Dehlin [00:41:20] Okay, wait, go slowly. Go slowly. Okay, so start with the first one.

Lloyd Evans [00:41:26] The soul isn't immortal.

John Dehlin [00:41:28] Okay. There's no soul. Okay.

Lloyd Evans [00:41:31] There's the Trinity.

John Dehlin [00:41:34] Trinity's bad. Well, don't they start with something positive, like there's a God.

Lloyd Evans [00:41:39] Oh, always. Yeah. It all starts off with, not only is there a God, but wouldn't you know, he's got a plan for fixing the suffering, and it involves this paradise earth that is brought about by massacring billions of people who want Jehovah's Witnesses.

John Dehlin [00:41:57] Okay, wait, that's you. That's not, that's not the missionary, but

Lloyd Evans [00:42:01] that is what the teaching is. I've just explained. Explained it.

John Dehlin [00:42:03] You know, it's kind of, there's suffering in the world, but there's a loving Jehovah that wants to alleviate us from suffering.

Lloyd Evans [00:42:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:10] And he's going to bring about, wouldn't

Lloyd Evans [00:42:13] it be great if we could have a world without evil? Well, God has promised to get rid of the evil.

John Dehlin [00:42:19] And it's right around the corner.

Lloyd Evans [00:42:21] Exactly. And restore the earth to what was. What was originally planned for Adam and Eve, which was to live in a paradise on earth.

John Dehlin [00:42:29] What scuttled Adam and the Adam and Eve plan. Is there like a Satan or what? What took the plan off course when God had us on that Adam and

Lloyd Evans [00:42:37] Eve track, original sin. So they, they ate the fruit. And by eating the fruit, sin entered the human race.

John Dehlin [00:42:46] And so Adam and Eve screwed up, essentially.

Lloyd Evans [00:42:49] Yeah. So when Jesus came, he came to reverse that by basically offering himself as a human sacrifice to satisfy a standard of justice that God had devised to begin with. Because by dying, Jesus reversed the sin that Adam had burdened the human race with. So that if you become a Christian, or specifically if you become a Jehovah's Witness, you get to benefit from living forever in paradise or. Or in the case of anointed ones, going to heaven.

John Dehlin [00:43:27] Okay, so Jehovah's Witnesses go to paradise. Either paradise on earth. And by the way, that this is a Mormon teaching that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradis glory. So the earth being transformed into a paradise is actually an originally Mormon concept.

Lloyd Evans [00:43:48] The Mormons have like an Armageddon where this transition happens.

John Dehlin [00:43:51] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Revelation, apocalyptic, you know, Jesus returns, there's Armageddon and some climax where prophets are killed in the streets of Jerusalem and something with Gog and Magog and something about a final battle and then Jesus and his followers are victorious and there's a judgment and resurrection.

Lloyd Evans [00:44:19] But you also get to have your own planet, don't you?

John Dehlin [00:44:21] That, that comes later.

Lloyd Evans [00:44:23] Yeah, that's later. Yeah. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:44:24] That's for the ones that make the highest degree of heaven. But, but anyway, we're off topic. So for you, there is an Armageddon that Jesus has already come because he came in 1914, right?

Lloyd Evans [00:44:41] Yeah. So he's. He's enthroned in heaven, having re established. Having established his kingdom in 1914 by throwing Satan out of heaven into the confines of the earth. So the reason why there's been so much turmoil since 1914 is because Satan is confined to the earth's biosphere with his demons having been put there by Jesus in 1914.

John Dehlin [00:45:04] Well, there's a lot of bad stuff before 1914. Where do they attribute that to?

Lloyd Evans [00:45:09] Oh, well, it's. It's been much, much worse since 1914. To which I reply, when would you rather be living? 20, 20, 19 or 15 19?

John Dehlin [00:45:22] Tell that to the slaves, you know.

Lloyd Evans [00:45:24] Yeah, indeed.

John Dehlin [00:45:26] Okay, so, okay, so Satan and the angels were unleashed in 1914. What were they doing prior to that?

Lloyd Evans [00:45:37] They were causing mischief. Not just. They had free reign to. They could visit Earth and cause mischief there if they wanted to. Or they could cause mischief in the heavens. For example, there's the conversation in the Book of Job where there's this gathering in heaven and Satan starts taunting God. He wouldn't be able to do that now because he's confined to the earth.

John Dehlin [00:46:00] Okay, so 1914, Jehovah. What's the difference? So Jehovah is God. So how did God become a man, atone for our sins when he's God?

Lloyd Evans [00:46:12] No, he didn't. God isn't. Because I think. Isn't Jehovah like another name for Jesus or something in.

John Dehlin [00:46:20] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But what about you guys?

Lloyd Evans [00:46:22] Well, Jehovah is God and Jesus is his son.

John Dehlin [00:46:27] Jehovah's God. Okay, Mormonism. Jehovah is like the spiritual name of Jesus. God is named Elohim and Mormonism. So in your God is named what?

Lloyd Evans [00:46:37] Jehovah.

John Dehlin [00:46:38] God is Jehovah. Jesus is the Son of God.

Lloyd Evans [00:46:42] Yeah, He.

John Dehlin [00:46:45] Is he divine. Is he?

Lloyd Evans [00:46:47] No. Well, he is a God, but he Isn't the God. So he's the most powerful entity in the universe underneath God. So God is more powerful than Jesus. And Jesus is the first thing that was created by God before the. Before the universe was created. So Jesus participated in creating everything else.

John Dehlin [00:47:11] Okay, wait, but if there's no soul. So God creates. Incorporated Jesus as his first offspring.

Lloyd Evans [00:47:24] Yes. So Jesus was the firstborn of all creation.

John Dehlin [00:47:27] But then how did Jesus come out of Mary? If Jesus existed prior to Mary,

Lloyd Evans [00:47:32] he was transferred to human form by God inseminating Mary. Yeah, that's kind of more of a broad Christian thing. Lots of Christians believe that.

John Dehlin [00:47:47] Right, but you're saying there is no soul.

Lloyd Evans [00:47:50] In a trinitarian context, it's even more confusing because God gave birth to himself from Mary, whereas the JW narrative, God allowed his son to be reborn in human form through Mary.

John Dehlin [00:48:08] Well, at least with Mormonism, Jesus existed as a spirit when. So God created everything spiritually before he created everything physically. So Jesus was created spiritually and he had to come to earth to get his body. Right? You guys don't have spirits or souls. And so I'm just wondering how Jesus with the body, let's say pre earth Jesus with the body somehow becomes baby Jesus in Mary's womb. I guess that's just God's miracle, huh?

Lloyd Evans [00:48:41] There's a spirit realm and there's a physical realm and we can't see the spirit realm. But the spirit realm has always been there because God's always been there. And from the spirit realm came the physical realm. When God created the physical universe. And when, when Jesus came to Earth to offer his life as a sacrifice, he accepted giving up his spirit life to become a mortal for a few years.

John Dehlin [00:49:10] So does your God have a body?

Lloyd Evans [00:49:13] Not a physical body, no.

John Dehlin [00:49:16] Your God is a spiritual body.

Lloyd Evans [00:49:18] My God, because I'm an atheist.

John Dehlin [00:49:20] But no, let's, let's just pretend you're Jehovah's Witness. So your Jehovah has a spirit but not a body?

Lloyd Evans [00:49:27] Jehovah doesn't have a physical body. No.

John Dehlin [00:49:30] Has a spiritual body. So pre mortal Jesus had a spiritual body?

Lloyd Evans [00:49:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:36] Spirit bodies have hands and feet and head. And

Lloyd Evans [00:49:40] you'll have to, you'd have to ask the governing body. They. Well, this is one of the weird things, because angels are depicted as having wings. But why would they need wings? If they can move around and do whatever, why did they actually need the bird appendages on their backs? Understand, if they're spirit beings and they're not confined by the laws of physics, then it does it's irrelevant whether. Whether they have wings on their backs.

John Dehlin [00:50:07] Okay.

Lloyd Evans [00:50:08] Always confused me about the Bible.

John Dehlin [00:50:10] So spirit Jesus makes a deal with Jehovah that he'll accept a transformation from. From spirit, from premortal spirit Jesus into mortal Jesus as, as. As a product of Mary's womb.

Lloyd Evans [00:50:29] Yeah, because the only way he could die was by taking on human form because humans are mortal. So he. He accepted the assignment of becoming a mortal so that he could come and die for the sins of mankind.

John Dehlin [00:50:44] And then after he dies, does he get transformed back to spiritual Jesus in

Lloyd Evans [00:50:50] the heavens, you could argue? Means that he didn't really die. If the deal was to resurrect him instantly, then did he really die? But yeah, he. After he died, he was reinstalled as a spirit being in the heavens.

John Dehlin [00:51:03] So no body after that?

Lloyd Evans [00:51:06] Well, yeah, that's the thing. I mean, that's the whole thing with the resurrection, isn't it, that there was no body left in the tomb. So the Bible narrative goes.

John Dehlin [00:51:15] Yeah, but for Mormons, the body got. Because Jesus came down to spirit Jesus came back down. So in Mormonism, spirit Jesus entered into Jesus physical body when he was born. You know, somehow whenever spirits enter the body in the womb, then he lived as spirit plus mortal Jesus until he was died. Then when he died, his spirit left the body. And then three days later, spirit returns, reunites with the body, and that's why the body disappears, because Jesus, his spirit returned to the body and then walked away.

Lloyd Evans [00:51:50] Right, so just to be clear, the tomb was empty, but the body had disappeared, hadn't it? In the Bible, the body takes on different physical forms because people have trouble recognizing Jesus. And then there's the transfiguration. Not the transfiguration, sorry. There's the ascension, where Jesus is having his last conversation with his disciples, and then he floats up into the heavens, and that's where the body goes because it's floated upwards. And that's when Jesus gets transformed back into the spirit form.

John Dehlin [00:52:23] Okay, so for you guys, the body's lifted up to heaven. Like God takes the body out of

Lloyd Evans [00:52:27] the tomb, transformed midair, I guess, back into spirit form, and the body, I guess, just vanishes.

John Dehlin [00:52:35] So for you guys, the body vanishes?

Lloyd Evans [00:52:37] Yeah, I guess. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:39] I'm not, I'm not trying to mock. I'm just. It's. It's all crazy.

Lloyd Evans [00:52:43] Well, spirit Jesus plus physical Jesus, which I find even more confusing. But I guess it depends what you're used to, doesn't it?

John Dehlin [00:52:53] So, okay, so when Jesus dies, the body's put in the tomb. But at some point, okay, so Jesus, as soon as Jesus dies, he's transformed into spirit Jesus. Corporal Jesus dies, is immediately transformed into spiritual Jesus or retransformed into spiritual Jesus because he was spiritual Jesus before his mortal ministry, right?

Lloyd Evans [00:53:16] Yes. So he goes somewhere from this point.

John Dehlin [00:53:21] What?

Lloyd Evans [00:53:21] I'm just gonna say yes from this point because it's so confusing.

John Dehlin [00:53:24] And then at some point, spirit Jesus ascends with Jesus former dead body.

Lloyd Evans [00:53:32] It's weird to be advocating for beliefs that I knife I now find preposterous.

John Dehlin [00:53:36] Anyway, fill the role, just fill the role for us. It's like acting. So at some point, spirit Jesus ascends with his dead body into heaven. Yeah.

Lloyd Evans [00:53:50] The way they put it, with the way Jehovah's Witnesses put it, is that when he ascended to the heavens, he offered the sacrificial value of his life in like a ceremony in the heavens to God and it was accepted. And, and now people get to have immortal having mortality due to that sacrifice.

John Dehlin [00:54:12] So God and Jesus have no body. But Jehovah's Witnesses will have bodies once they die, right?

Lloyd Evans [00:54:22] They'll be resurrected with bodies. Yeah. So everything that makes them who they are will be remembered by God. So after they've died in the future, they'll be resurrected and God will remember everything that made them who they are, resurrect them with perfect bodies.

John Dehlin [00:54:39] Okay, wait a minute. So if I die, what happens to me? I die. So when I move from Jesus dying to I'm dying, if I'm a.

Lloyd Evans [00:54:49] Everything about you disappears in the biological waste that's left behind. And then in the future, if you, if you die a loyal Jehovah's Witness, God remembers everything about John De Lin, including what his optimal body would have been like. And literally out of thin air, reconstructs your body with all of the memories that you died with.

John Dehlin [00:55:11] So you don't. You never, you never independently exist.

Lloyd Evans [00:55:15] No, true. Yeah, well,

John Dehlin [00:55:19] see, in Mormonism, you, you existed as an intelligence eternally in the past, and then God creates you spiritually, which somehow this intelligence is given spirit form and then you're given a body. It's almost like a three layer existence where you're an eternal intelligence where you've always existed, but God gives you a spiritual form, sort of upgrades you to a spiritual form, and then upgrades you more by giving you a body so that the ultimate Mormon existence, you've always existed, but you were upgraded from intelligence to spirit to then spirit plus body which becomes a resurrected being. I think ours is More logically consistent.

Lloyd Evans [00:56:01] No, it's more like a Marvel script. Oh. We get upgraded with these superpowers and then we get the ultimate upgrade, and then we can do this.

John Dehlin [00:56:08] Don't you oppress me. Don't you call. Don't you liken my theology to a Marvel comic. What do you think? Who do you think you are?

Lloyd Evans [00:56:18] Hey, I'm just playing a role.

John Dehlin [00:56:20] Okay. Okay. So with you, you die and cease to exist, but then God recreates you.

End Times, Armageddon, and the Afterlife

Lloyd Evans [00:56:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:29] What happens to non Jehovah's Witnesses when they die?

Lloyd Evans [00:56:32] That's it. They never get resurrected.

John Dehlin [00:56:34] You just cease to be.

Lloyd Evans [00:56:36] That's the ultimate punishment. The scripture is the wages that sin pays is death. So once you've died, you've paid for all your sins.

John Dehlin [00:56:47] Okay. And so you just. There's no hell then of suffering in Jehovah's Witnesses?

Lloyd Evans [00:56:52] No, no, there isn't.

John Dehlin [00:56:55] You just cease to be you.

Lloyd Evans [00:56:56] Just. The ultimate punishment is to cease to exist.

John Dehlin [00:57:01] Interesting. Well, that's. That's kind of terrifying too, I guess.

Lloyd Evans [00:57:06] And I guess if you are raised to be on. If you are raised to not accept your mortality, then yes, it can be terrifying. But as we know, it's possible to become comfortable with your mortality and in fact, to derive some kind of meaning from that and meaning from the fact that the clock is ticking and we need to make the best of our lives. But when you grow up in that kind of fundamentalist background, you're raised to think that it's all about, you know, survive cheating your own death, basically, and following the steps to do that.

John Dehlin [00:57:42] Okay.

Lloyd Evans [00:57:43] Hmm.

John Dehlin [00:57:44] Interesting. All right, so no. Okay, so what, what do you do? Let's say you happen to be a Jehovah's Witness and. Okay, what happens to bad Jehovah's Witnesses?

Lloyd Evans [00:57:57] They die and they're not resurrected.

John Dehlin [00:58:00] So there's no judgment for you guys.

Lloyd Evans [00:58:02] Well, yes and no. Because although we don't have hell, you. You could argue that to some degree the teaching of Armageddon substitutes for that. Because whereas in the hell teaching hell is everlasting torment in fire and brimstone and what have you. We have the fire and brimstone, but it's just an instantaneous one off impending event where Armageddon comes and you know, you're done for and you're just waiting for the moment when the building falls on you. That's kind of. That kind of takes the place of hell in the. In the mind of the Jehovah's Witness. Because you're terrified that if Armageddon was to come, that you would be one of the ones that God kills.

John Dehlin [00:58:49] Okay, so that's important. So now, you know, we're talking about this chronology that's framed Jehovah's Witness teachings since the 1800s. You're. You're. You as Jehovah's Witness, you're waiting for Jesus to return. And is it. Pretty much every Jehovah's Witness probably is thinking it's a year or five or 10 years away, that it's definitely, probably going to be in your lifetime.

Lloyd Evans [00:59:13] It could, you know, we're talking. It could come to. You have to be prepared for it to come tomorrow. It's really imminent. If you really take the faith seriously, that is, you have to be prepared for it to come tomorrow.

John Dehlin [00:59:26] And are there signs of it? You know, with Mormonism, there's signs of the times, which is like the moon will turn to blood and two prophets will be killed on the streets of Israel, and there'll be wars and rumors of wars. You know, I remember growing up being taught the signs of the second coming. Do you guys have it equivalent?

Lloyd Evans [00:59:46] Yeah. So the signs of the last days, pretty much everything that's mentioned in Matthew 24 about wars and pestilences and that kind of thing is all applied to what we're seeing in the world now. There's then the kind of the astrological phenomenons of the moon being turned to blood and that kind of thing, which they say, well, maybe there's going to be literal things happening in, you know, in the heavens, but all these things could have some kind of metaphorical explanation. We don't know yet. We'll know more when it happens. But trust us, all of this stuff is just around the corner.

John Dehlin [01:00:23] Okay, and so how, and so what are. What are Jehovah's Witnesses taught? Sort of like, okay, these are the steps. So what's step one of? Is Armageddon the next step, or is it something else?

Lloyd Evans [01:00:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:00:39] So what's the first step of the end?

Lloyd Evans [01:00:42] The first step is the Great Tribulation, which happens when all of the world's leaders announce that there is peace and security.

John Dehlin [01:00:51] That's a bad thing?

Lloyd Evans [01:00:53] Yeah, well, they say that there's going to be peace and security, but that's just a lie.

John Dehlin [01:01:00] There's some big global conspiracy where all the leaders tell everybody that we now have peace.

Lloyd Evans [01:01:07] And so this kick starts, what's called the Great Tribulation. And the Great Tribulation is when all of the nations of the earth band together to fight, form an entity that's Described as Gog of Magog, who turns against. First of all, the nations turn on organized religion in general. And then they notice that Jehovah's Witnesses are still, you know, enjoying prosperity. And then they turn on Jehovah's Witnesses. And when the nations turn on Jehovah's Witnesses, God intervenes. And that is Armageddon. And that's when God slaughters all of the non Jehovah's Witnesses. And there's actually a chronology after that, because then the world is, you could say it's transformed into a paradise for a thousand year period.

Lloyd Evans [01:02:00] And then at the end of this thousand year period, there's supposed to be another rebellion where people who survived Armageddon decide that they actually no longer want to be under God's authority. And so they all band together. Then they get and Satan's released a final time, and then they get defeated along with Satan and then everything's okay.

John Dehlin [01:02:21] So you do have that thousand year millennial thing. Mormons have that.

Lloyd Evans [01:02:24] Indeed, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:25] And that's a thousand years of peace.

Lloyd Evans [01:02:27] A thousand years of peace and prosperity. Prosperity. At the end of which Satan is released so that he can go and round up everyone who basically filter out everyone who might be bad. They all mount a rebellion and they get crushed. And then everyone that's left are the super righteous ones.

John Dehlin [01:02:47] So starting whenever the thousand years starts, is it only Jehovah's Witnesses that are that survived to the beginning of the millennium?

Lloyd Evans [01:02:55] So it's the post apocalyptic world will be populated by Jehovah's Witnesses and those who are resurrected, including those who died having never heard about Jehovah's Witnesses, they are given an opportunity to become Jehovah's Witnesses.

John Dehlin [01:03:14] Hey, that sounds very Mormon. So you have you. So okay, so all the people who. Wow, you just blew my mind. So, okay, so who are these people that are. That survive Armageddon that are not Jehovah's Witness?

Lloyd Evans [01:03:30] They're nobody. Everybody who isn't a Jehovah's Witness dies at Armageddon. And only after Armageddon is everybody who died before Armageddon struck. So let's say an hour before Armageddon strikes, I drop dead of a brain tumor. And I'm not an apostate. I'm just a normal person. Let's say I'm not Lloyd Evans. I'm just some random person who's never been preached to by Jehovah's Witnesses and I dropped dead an hour before Armageddon. Technically I'm going to be resurrected after Armageddon at some point because I've died before Armageddon. Whereas if I'd actually died during Armageddon because I'm not a Jehovah's Witness, I'm not inclined to be a Jehovah's Witness, then a building would fall on me and I'd. Or I'd die in some other way.

John Dehlin [01:04:25] Okay, so everyone. Okay, what happened? Let's say a thousand. Let's say a hundred years ago, Jehovah Witnesses tracked it out. Fred Smith in Brooklyn preached him and Fred rejected, then he died. What happens to him during and after Armageddon?

Lloyd Evans [01:04:46] Did you say a thousand years ago?

John Dehlin [01:04:48] No, no, a hundred years ago.

Lloyd Evans [01:04:49] A hundred years ago. That's a tricky one because the religions change so much. But I guess in theory, if he has rejected the opportunity to join the organization, he would. He would not be resurrected.

John Dehlin [01:05:01] And then 6,000 years ago, UGA on the Savannah, who existed prior to Jesus and, you know, and the creation of Joseph's Witness. What happens to uga?

Lloyd Evans [01:05:18] Okay, we're delving into human evolution a little bit now, but

John Dehlin [01:05:23] let's say it's prior to 6,000 years. So, all right, some. Some.

Lloyd Evans [01:05:27] There were no humans prior to 6,000 years, according to Jew.

John Dehlin [01:05:31] Okay. In China, 5,000 years ago. Some dude, 5,000 years ago.

Lloyd Evans [01:05:36] I can work with 5,000. Okay. Anyone. Anyone like that would be resurrected? Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:43] Really?

Lloyd Evans [01:05:44] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:45] So there's billions of people in the

Lloyd Evans [01:05:47] resurrection, then it's going to be very crowded.

John Dehlin [01:05:51] Okay, well, that's really interesting. So everyone gets resurrected except for people who received the JEHOVAH Witness message 18, whatever, 70, whatever, and modern times. And rejected it.

Lloyd Evans [01:06:07] Indeed. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:09] Or bad Jehovah's Witnesses.

Lloyd Evans [01:06:12] Indeed. Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:13] So if you were Jehovah's Witness, Fred Smith, in 1905, and you committed adultery or had a transfusion in 1960, whatever, and you were shunned and kicked out, you would not be resurrected.

Lloyd Evans [01:06:31] Indeed. And it's even worse than that. Jehovah's Witnesses are told that if they aren't sufficiently active in the preaching work, then they're not worthy of surviving Armageddon and by extension being resurrected. I suppose you could say.

John Dehlin [01:06:46] So technically, it's better to have. It's probably your odds are better to

Lloyd Evans [01:06:50] have never ever heard of Jehovah's Witness,

John Dehlin [01:06:53] heard of Jehovah's Witness and. Or never been a member.

Lloyd Evans [01:06:57] Indeed.

John Dehlin [01:06:57] Then to have either heard of it or been worse off, been a member.

Lloyd Evans [01:07:01] Ignorance really is bliss if you want to make it.

John Dehlin [01:07:06] Okay, well, that's. That would, you know as a 15 year old Jehovah's Witness that, that I would have asked all these questions and I would have like said there's something about this that doesn't make sense. Yeah, well, I would have still believed, I would have still followed it, but it wouldn't, it would have registered as a problematic to me.

Lloyd Evans [01:07:25] When you get out, you realize how nonsensical it all is. When you're inside, it all makes perfect sense.

John Dehlin [01:07:31] Well, we're, we're very, we've got our own little contorted, twisted afterlife and millennium too, so.

Lloyd Evans [01:07:39] And superpowers and that kind of thing. Yeah, it's crazy.

John Dehlin [01:07:43] Yeah. Yeah. Okay, well that's really, that's fascinating. I'm glad we went there because that, that really reveals a lot about, you know, kind of this resurrection post life kind of thing. So the millennium is billions of people, a bunch of which, a small group of what, 104, whoever, however many of like righteous Jehovah's Witnesses. Right. The ones who were alive, that survived Armageddon, plus all the ones that had died who were righteous, plus all the people who ever lived who never had the chance to learn about it.

Lloyd Evans [01:08:20] Indeed.

John Dehlin [01:08:21] Okay, so the millennium, do you call it the millennium?

Lloyd Evans [01:08:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:25] So that starts with billions of people and then what do you do for that thousand years?

Lloyd Evans [01:08:31] I think that the way they teach it is that we don't know for sure how the resurrection will happen. It will probably be staggered. So they're not literally all just going to be there from the beginning. They're probably going to appear gradually over the period of the thousand years.

John Dehlin [01:08:46] And what are people doing in their lives during the meantime?

Lloyd Evans [01:08:50] Mostly eating fruit, petting pandas and, and wild animals are no longer meat eaters.

John Dehlin [01:08:58] So it's back to the Garden of

Lloyd Evans [01:08:59] Eden State, back to the Garden of Eden, basically making the whole Earth a Garden of Eden is.

John Dehlin [01:09:05] But are people preaching? Is there any ministering?

Lloyd Evans [01:09:10] Not, not necessarily preaching because there's only one religion and it's compulsory. So just teaching those, I guess, who are resurrected what their religion should be if they don't want to. It was always unclear to me what would happen if they turned down what you would. How would there be like beheadings or something? That was never made clear to me. There's a whole lot about Paradise Earth that isn't accepted, explained. And if you ask too many questions, what you're told is, oh, well, it's wrong to speculate. All of this will be made clear in the future.

John Dehlin [01:09:40] You know, that sounds very familiar. Do you, do you Die? Do people die in the millennium?

Lloyd Evans [01:09:46] No. Well, this is what I mean. I'm unclear as to whether people are executed if they know.

John Dehlin [01:09:54] What if you're righteous? What if you're righteous in the.

Lloyd Evans [01:09:56] Righteous. You're. You're never going to die. And again, that wasn't explained. Like, if I go near the edge of a cliff and I dangle my leg and I lose my balance, am I literally kind of levitated back onto the cliff? How does that work? None of that gets explained. And if you ask that question, you're told, well, just wait, Lloyd. Everything's gonna make itself clear.

John Dehlin [01:10:18] Okay, so righteous millennial livers don't die.

Lloyd Evans [01:10:22] You don't die once you've made it. Yeah, it's impossible to die.

John Dehlin [01:10:25] So you live for a thousand years. So billions of people are all living for a thousand years. Can you have children during that time?

Lloyd Evans [01:10:31] No.

John Dehlin [01:10:33] No babies?

Lloyd Evans [01:10:34] No, you can't.

John Dehlin [01:10:35] Do you age?

Lloyd Evans [01:10:38] You. You age only in one direction and to one optimal age. So if you're a child who survives Armageddon because you are a Jehovah's Witness child, for example, you're going to age up to, let's say, 21, and you'll stay there. And if you're in your appearance. Yeah. And if you're resurrected as, let's say, an 85 year old grandmother, you'll age down to 21, and then you'll stay there until eventually everyone is 21, at least in appearance.

John Dehlin [01:11:09] Okay, that's bizarre.

Lloyd Evans [01:11:10] Yeah, they don't say 21, I'm just giving you.

John Dehlin [01:11:13] That's like whatever the age, optimum age

Lloyd Evans [01:11:15] is, let's say you're prime.

John Dehlin [01:11:19] So there's no sickness, there's no illness, there's no aging. Yeah, everybody looks hot and fit.

Lloyd Evans [01:11:25] It's like a very unnerving Star Trek

John Dehlin [01:11:27] episode, basically, where everybody's hot, everybody's young, except for the children.

Lloyd Evans [01:11:34] If the Enterprise crew landed, they would quickly realize something was very wrong about this planet.

John Dehlin [01:11:38] Yeah, because there's no elderly, there's no sick, indeed, there's no overweight people, there's

Lloyd Evans [01:11:44] no ugly people, there's no one disagreeing with the rulers.

John Dehlin [01:11:46] Yeah, everybody's happy and fun and loving life and peaceful indeed. Except for the kids that are growing up to the point where they get to the optimum age and then they're like everybody else.

Lloyd Evans [01:11:57] And there's a complete animal kingdom with no food chain because none of the apex predators are eating meat. So, yeah, there's gonna be lots for them to study the Enterprise crew.

John Dehlin [01:12:08] So the Animals just live but never die too.

Lloyd Evans [01:12:12] I think it's different. In fact, there was a recent Watchtower article which I haven't read in detail, but it's basically was designed to tell witnesses that they don't get to welcome their pets back in the resurrection. So one, pets aren't resurrected, but pets aren't resurrected. So by extension you could say that animals will still die in the paradise, just not the humans, but not by.

John Dehlin [01:12:33] Not because they're being eaten by humans, because humans aren't eating or are humans.

Lloyd Evans [01:12:39] So the panda will just kind of go somewhere and die and not inconvenience humans by stumbling upon his corpse.

John Dehlin [01:12:46] But do humans eat animals in the millennium?

Lloyd Evans [01:12:48] No, they'll all eat fruit, mostly watermelons and an array of pleasing vegetables on picnic tables. Is how it's depicted in the literature. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:12:59] And we are revealing my 15 year old self. I would have asked in some Jehovah's Witness Sunday school somewhere, do we poop in the millennium? Do we poop and pee in the millennium?

Lloyd Evans [01:13:10] I guess you do. Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:12] But you just fruit.

Lloyd Evans [01:13:15] It's going to be mostly seeds. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:20] And then is there sex in the millennium? I would have asked that too.

Lloyd Evans [01:13:25] Again, there's. I guess. Well, here's the thing. Marriage is a bit of. You're only obviously allowed to have sex if you're married. And there's a verse in the Bible where Jesus is asked a question about if someone's resurrected, what happens to their dead husband or something. And Jesus answers to the Jewish religious leaders, no, the people won't be married in the new in the kingdom. And he's clearly referring to heaven. He's thinking of people being spirit entities and therefore not having sex and that kind of thing. But Witnesses view that as referring to the paradise. And they give very confused answers which basically amount to we don't know how it's all going to work, but trust us, it's all going to be fantastic.

John Dehlin [01:14:14] Yeah, that's totally the same line we get. Okay, so is your understanding is there's no marriage in the millennium?

Lloyd Evans [01:14:22] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:14:23] Which means there's no sex.

Lloyd Evans [01:14:25] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:14:26] Oh man. Okay. Yeah, the Mormons get to keep having sex.

Lloyd Evans [01:14:29] We'll get touching this very well.

John Dehlin [01:14:31] Am I okay, so what? So once the millennium happens and there's the final battle and the baddie goodies, so the goodies that made it but then that were judged to be bad, they get killed off or killed again. So they get to die twice.

Lloyd Evans [01:14:49] You could conceivably die twice.

John Dehlin [01:14:51] Yeah, yeah. Then you've got the 144,000 that get to go to advanced level Heaven. Right.

Lloyd Evans [01:15:00] That happens during the Great tribulation, that the 144,000. The last ones of the 144,000 go to the heaven.

John Dehlin [01:15:08] Wait, was that before the millennium or after?

Lloyd Evans [01:15:10] Before the millennium. During the millennium.

John Dehlin [01:15:11] Oh, so the 144,000 graduate right at

Lloyd Evans [01:15:14] the beginning of the millennium because they get to involve themselves in the slaughter. That's one of the interesting.

John Dehlin [01:15:20] Oh, they get. It's like everybody takes up a sword and Jesus has got 144,000 warriors slaughtering everyone.

Lloyd Evans [01:15:28] So the governing body literally get to kill people who don't agree with them and don't recognize their authority.

John Dehlin [01:15:36] And that'll be bad Jehovah's Witnesses. Bad Jehovah's Witnesses. And anyone who's heard the Jehovah's Witness message, who doesn't accept it, who didn't accept it.

Lloyd Evans [01:15:46] Yeah, they'll get a building land on them. Or a fireball land on them.

John Dehlin [01:15:50] What if you're like a genocidal maniac that just never had the chance to learn about Jehovah's Witness? Or do you get resurrected?

Lloyd Evans [01:15:56] Could, in theory, yeah. Because you're just a sinner, aren't you? If only you had. If only you knew the truth, you could put all of your genocidal behavior behind you. That's how. That's how things work as Witnesses. And that's why pedophiles, for example, are forgiven and allowed to just carry on. Because it's just understood that this is a sin and not an intrinsic part of your behavior.

John Dehlin [01:16:20] Because you don't have. You haven't been enlightened yet.

Lloyd Evans [01:16:23] Indeed, if you only applied the Bible's teachings, you'd stop being a pedophile is how they think of you when you're a Witness.

John Dehlin [01:16:31] That's some powerful doctrine and theology right there.

Lloyd Evans [01:16:34] Indeed.

John Dehlin [01:16:36] Okay, so the 144,000 get the privilege of assisting in the slaughter of everyone who's unworthy. And then when the slaughter's over, where do they go, the 144,000? They go to heaven.

Lloyd Evans [01:16:50] They're already in heaven. That they are. They become immortal spirit creatures who are able to, I guess, manipulate the physical universe when they participate in the slaughter. Because obviously there was. There's reports in the Bible of angels, you know, manipulating and being involved in. In the Bible narrative. So they do that Armageddon, and then once Armageddon's finished, they rule in heaven with Jesus over the paradise earth.

John Dehlin [01:17:16] So what. So what's what's the upgrade in heaven? How's heaven better than paradise?

Lloyd Evans [01:17:22] You'd have to. I don't see that there is an upgrade other than if you are narcissistic and enjoy wielding power. Then heaven is the obvious option because you're there with Jesus ruling over the earth. I can't see another benefit to heaven because paradise Earth is supposed to be a utopia.

John Dehlin [01:17:40] So there's no marriage up there. There's no marriage up there. Right.

Lloyd Evans [01:17:44] There are at least animals on paradise Earth to look at. All you've got in heaven is just, I guess, clouds, I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:17:51] And you're not married. Your family, your family isn't necessarily with you. Right.

Lloyd Evans [01:17:57] You could in theory have left your wife to inhabit the paradise earth while you're in heaven ruling over her. Yes, very strange.

John Dehlin [01:18:04] So ruling over it. So you're just powerful leaders who are going back and forth from heaven to paradise ruling everybody.

Lloyd Evans [01:18:13] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:18:14] And that's eternity. Eternity. You're just this sort of mid level God appointed bureaucrat leader that's ruling over people on paradise.

Lloyd Evans [01:18:25] Indeed. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:18:26] And after the millennium, in paradise, you just live forever being ruled over by these overlords that have been approved by God Jehovah and you're just living on earth with animals forever being ruled over.

Lloyd Evans [01:18:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:18:44] That doesn't sound as cool. We've got a better, We've got a better outcome. I mean, we win. We win.

Lloyd Evans [01:18:49] You also have magic underwear, so nothing beats that no more.

John Dehlin [01:18:54] With Mormonism, if you, if you meet the resurrection and you become exalted in the highest level of heaven, you become a God and you become Jehovah, basically. Which means you get sent off to your own existence. You get to. With your, with your wife or wives, by the way. You get to create your own spirits and then send them all to earth to get their bodies and you get to be a God ruling over an entire planet or existence.

Lloyd Evans [01:19:21] The Marvel comic really, isn't it?

John Dehlin [01:19:22] No. Come on, Ours is way better than yours. You get to become a Jehovah basically.

Lloyd Evans [01:19:28] Right.

John Dehlin [01:19:29] Wouldn't a Jehovah's Witness want to become a Jehovah?

Lloyd Evans [01:19:32] Right. So at least in the. With paradise, the aim is live in idyllic surroundings with people that you love and care about. With Mormons it's like, get an upgrade, have your own planet.

John Dehlin [01:19:46] Yeah.

Lloyd Evans [01:19:47] Other entities.

John Dehlin [01:19:48] Come on, man, that's way cooler.

Lloyd Evans [01:19:50] It's like a toy advert. It really is. But anyway, you're just jealous. I'm only playing a role here. You are, you're just Jealous.

John Dehlin [01:20:03] Okay.

Lloyd Evans [01:20:05] Can I just say something?

John Dehlin [01:20:06] Yeah.

Lloyd Evans [01:20:07] Whenever I raised this with, I don't know whether you know Jonathan Streeter, he's a good friend of mine. And whenever we used to encounter Mormons as Jehovah's Witnesses, my experience was that they tended to run away from me. I always found that very odd.

Lloyd Evans [01:20:28] It's like, I remember once we had a guy who I would call on regularly to leave magazines with. And at one point the wife, he said, oh, your friends have just been. And I'd say, have they really? Well, what did they look like? Oh, it was two guys. And I thought, no, I don't remember. I think I know who's calling and I'm not aware of anyone else calling on you. Then I realized one day that when he said, your friends have been calling, he was confusing two Mormon missionaries who were calling on. On him as being part of the same religion. And it all got very awkward because I called at the house with my partner at the same time as the Mormons were inside in his front room, and they literally couldn't get out of the house quickly enough, left very hastily, not speaking a word to either the couple who they've been talking to or me and my partner.

Lloyd Evans [01:21:29] They literally just walked past us down the path and left as quickly as they could. It was almost as though they were scared of us. It was very strange. I had a few encounters like that with Mormons where when they figured out that I was a Witness, they kind of almost. They ended.

Jehovah's Witnesses, Criticism, and the Internet

John Dehlin [01:21:44] Yeah, because you guys are a cult.

Lloyd Evans [01:21:48] Yeah, of course. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:21:50] No, I mean, yeah, Mormons are the one true church, you know, at least Protestants at some point had it right, but kind of fell away. You guys are just full blown cults. And that's scary.

Lloyd Evans [01:22:03] Sure. But when people act scared, it empowers you because you think they're scared of us because we have superpowers, you know, or creepy weirdness. We don't see it that way. We see it as we're invincible. That they know that we've got the truth and they can't handle being around

John Dehlin [01:22:19] us, you know, I'm just telling you, we see you guys. We see, you know, believing Mormons would see you guys as kind of like also ran weird, creepy cult people who are, you know, it's bad enough to be a Protestant Christian that's fallen from the truth. You guys are just creepy weird. Also ran irrelevant cultists, you know?

Lloyd Evans [01:22:40] Sure.

John Dehlin [01:22:40] I don't mean. I don't. I hope you don't take that as insulting, but I'm Just.

Lloyd Evans [01:22:43] Well, you're just playing a role, aren't you? So.

John Dehlin [01:22:45] Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. But also, we were missionaries. We would see you guys as kind of like, oh, we hate Jehovah's Witnesses because people confuse us awesome Mormon missionaries with you creepy, weird Jehovah's Witness missionaries. And you guys kind of spoil the fertile land of missionary work to our face.

Lloyd Evans [01:23:04] You just clear off.

John Dehlin [01:23:05] Oh, no, no, no. We would talk about you behind your back. We would never actually.

Lloyd Evans [01:23:09] Yeah,

John Dehlin [01:23:13] okay. This is awesome. Yeah, yeah. Mormons tend to stick to themselves. You don't have. You rarely have close friends that aren't Mormon and you rarely socialize with people that aren't Mormon.

Lloyd Evans [01:23:25] It's the same with jws. Everyone else is by dissociation. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:23:29] Okay. So we've covered a lot of your doctrine in theology by talking about the things we've already talked about. We've talked about the meetings, we've talked about evangelism, we've talked some about ethics and morality. I'm just reading through. I'm just reading through the Wikipedia page. So it looks like homosexuality is bad. Same sex marriage is bad. Abortion is bad, suicide is bad. You've got modesty in dress and grooming. Gambling is bad, drunkenness, illegal drugs and tobacco, Alcohol is okay in moderation.

Lloyd Evans [01:24:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:24:07] You definitely have a patriarchy. And the women are the women kind of subjugated to the man's male authority?

Lloyd Evans [01:24:15] Can't have any role of any significance

John Dehlin [01:24:17] if you're a woman in the church.

Lloyd Evans [01:24:19] Indeed. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:24:20] And in the home.

Lloyd Evans [01:24:22] In the home, a wife is under the subject. Under subjection to her husband.

John Dehlin [01:24:27] Okay.

Lloyd Evans [01:24:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:24:29] And so feminism's not a. There's not a lot of feminist Jehovah's Witnesses out there.

Lloyd Evans [01:24:34] Feminists.

John Dehlin [01:24:35] Okay. Divorce is frowned upon.

Lloyd Evans [01:24:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:24:39] What do you have to do to get divorced in Jehovah's Witness and stay

Lloyd Evans [01:24:43] credible for divorce or adultery? Which means that you could have a physically abusive husband and you're not allowed to divorce him. You have to stay married to him. The only way out of the marriage is for him to commit adultery or for you to commit adultery.

John Dehlin [01:25:01] And again, that's ironic because at least one of your two founding leaders got divorced. So Charles.

Lloyd Evans [01:25:08] Charles Taze Russell got divorced.

John Dehlin [01:25:12] He got divorced. And Joseph Franklin Rutherford, he didn't. He just had a mistress.

Lloyd Evans [01:25:18] Rutherford was estranged, was separated from his wife without justified grounds. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:25:25] Okay, well, that's got to be a huge scandal then. Just the fact that divorce is prohibited. But your founding prophet or leader got

Lloyd Evans [01:25:34] divorced, and Rutherford is still considered to Be the inaugural member of the faithful and discreet slave. But the only way they can get away with saying that is by trusting that Jehovah's Witnesses aren't going to do their research. Because they don't do the research. They just trust everything that Watchtower tells them.

John Dehlin [01:25:50] So are young Jehovah's Witnesses taught about Charles Taze Randall from the beginning?

Lloyd Evans [01:25:56] Russell. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:25:58] What did I say? Randall Russell. Sorry, Russell.

Lloyd Evans [01:26:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:26:01] Charles Taze Russell.

Lloyd Evans [01:26:02] You grow up with that name, but again, you don't know half of what, for example, most exjws know about Charles Taze Russell. It's only when you get out that you hear the other side of the. The story.

John Dehlin [01:26:13] You don't know that he got divorced.

Lloyd Evans [01:26:15] You don't know that he got divorced. You don't know all about his crazy pyramid theories. You don't know precisely what his beliefs were about 1914 and 1878. You don't. You don't know that he believed that in the kingdom the skin of black people would turn white, and that white was the original standard that people would all revert to. You don't know any of this until Russell taught that. Russell taught that in heaven, you get made white. In the kingdom. In the kingdom, in the kingdom being administered over by heaven, black people's skin would turn white. And he cited examples of. I can't think of what the skin conditions called off the top of my head. He cited examples of where there were pigmentation anomalies as evidence that black people could turn white.

John Dehlin [01:27:13] Okay, so you've got a. You've got your own version of kind of racist doctrine and theology in your. In your head.

Lloyd Evans [01:27:19] Very much so. But it's very, very carefully concealed. There's even a Golden Age article from the 1930s saying that the black people are a race of servants. They have been and are a race of servants is what it says.

John Dehlin [01:27:37] Okay, we've got our version of that. And then, okay, this idea that ultimately Jehovah's Witnesses will be persecuted by the world, new order that gets created, that builds in persecution complex as a really. Not only. Well, it's kind of a reinforcing positive vibe or energy within your culture. Talk about that.

Lloyd Evans [01:28:02] Yeah, well, you grow up hearing about the fact that Witnesses were in the concentration camps, and you're told, well, obviously we're going to be persecuted because Jesus said, if they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. So if we weren't being persecuted, we wouldn't be God's one true organization. So any stories whatsoever of Witnesses being persecuted and even though these stories inevitably arise from totalitarian regimes, which, I'm sorry, Russia is, you don't think about the fact that Jehovah's Witnesses aren't being persecuted in modern democracies. You only focus on the totalitarian regimes. And you say, well, here you go. This is what we were told to expect, and it's going to get worse the closer we get to Armageddon.

John Dehlin [01:28:53] Yeah, okay, got it. Let's say we're coming to the close of this second part, which is kind of what, you know, modern Jehovah's Witness life. Has the church made any big, big, big changes over the past five. You know, how has the Internet affected Jehovah's Witness movement? And I don't want to give too much away because my sense is, in some sense, you may be kind of the John Dehlin of Jehovah's Witness in the sense that I don't know to what extent there were others before you sort of apostate John the Baptist and Jehovah's Witness movement who paved the way for Lloyd Evans. But is the church changing in response to the Internet? And if so, let's give a little precursor.

Lloyd Evans [01:29:48] The organization's getting hammered due to the Internet. The whole organization evolved to operate in a vacuum of criticism where they're the only ones who literally print the material and there's no real way for people to do research. But Google's just changed everything. So although the organization isn't in decline numerically, there's certainly, you could say, stagnant. The growth percentages for the previous year and the year before that have been 1.4% growth.

John Dehlin [01:30:21] So you're grinding to a halt like us. Let's go back before we get to that. What were the teachings or the practices that ensured that members wouldn't become educated?

Education, Famous Members, and Lloyd Evans's Story

Lloyd Evans [01:30:33] Historically, you're not allowed to go to college and university, which is not how things are with the Mormons.

John Dehlin [01:30:40] Wait a minute. You guys don't go to universities?

Lloyd Evans [01:30:42] No. Not allowed.

John Dehlin [01:30:43] What the. Yeah, not allowed.

Lloyd Evans [01:30:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:48] What?

Lloyd Evans [01:30:49] There's videos about it. There's watchtower articles about it. If you go to college or university, you are risking your spiritual health. You're not going to get disfellowshipped for it, but it's very strongly dissuaded.

John Dehlin [01:31:02] So. But. But I'm just. You sound thoughtful and educated enough to where I wouldn't think it'd be safe to assume that Jehovah's Witnesses are a bunch of dummies.

Lloyd Evans [01:31:15] I don't think it's a case of them being. They're definitely less educated overall because they're forbidden from going to college and university. I don't think it's as simple as saying they're dummies. Some of the smartest people I've ever met were Jehovah's Witnesses. It's just that they have been lied to and manipulated through processes I'm sure you're familiar with, to the point where they think that any opinions that contradict the opinions of the leaders aren't worth listening to.

John Dehlin [01:31:45] So what's the. So you, you graduate from high school as a Jehovah's Witness or the equivalent? What. Are you encouraged to get married really quick?

Lloyd Evans [01:31:55] It's. Well, you are. You aren't encouraged to get married quickly. You end up getting married quickly because of the sexual repression, because sex is the only. Marriage is the only way of having sex. So if, if you want to have sex, you have to get married. So that's why Witnesses get married young, but they're not ordered to get married young. It's not like. It's not like the Mormon tradition of having a big family that doesn't exist really, with Jehovah's Witnesses. It's. In fact, there's examples of couples being told that it's advantageous perhaps not to have children because then you have less distractions for preaching and that kind of thing.

John Dehlin [01:32:35] So the average age that the average Jehovah's Witness ends up getting married is

Lloyd Evans [01:32:39] what could be, I would say, early to mid-20s and.

John Dehlin [01:32:45] But you're not encouraged to have a crap ton of kids. No, because that just makes 144,000 thing just more complicated. So let's not accelerate that problem.

Lloyd Evans [01:32:56] The more children you have, the harder it will be for you to, you know, give. Give Jehovah the first place in your life.

John Dehlin [01:33:04] Wow. So is the optimum one to two kids or just one or what?

Lloyd Evans [01:33:09] They don't have a recommended number. It's just, you know, try, if you can, to be content just to serve Jehovah, but if, if you must have kids, then have as many as is. As is reasonable and as many as you can provide for.

John Dehlin [01:33:25] And so the average family has what?

Lloyd Evans [01:33:31] Gosh, it really depends congregation to congregation, because they're in 230 odd countries. So it depends what the local culture

John Dehlin [01:33:42] in your local congregation. The average family had how many children?

Lloyd Evans [01:33:47] Okay. So if a couple got married, let's say they had one or two children.

John Dehlin [01:33:52] Okay. Yeah. Mormonism, I would say, on average has four.

Lloyd Evans [01:33:58] Really? Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:33:59] And growing up There were Mormon families with 12 kids.

Lloyd Evans [01:34:03] Right.

John Dehlin [01:34:05] And that was a really important part of, I think our growth was just large families. We. It was like Catholics and Mormons had large families.

Lloyd Evans [01:34:14] But it's like, because I know it's not the same quite, not quite the same with fundamentalist lottery saints, but it's kind of embedded almost in the theological DNA that, you know, we create new entities. You know, we, we grow by creating new life and new spirits and that kind of thing. Okay, Correct me if I'm wrong.

John Dehlin [01:34:38] No, no, no, It's. It's not just that. It's the glory. Your glory in the afterlife is tied to the how many kids you have and how big your posterity is and how many kids your kids have and then everyone you bring into the church. It's almost like this huge glory pyramid scheme where you're trying to build up your glory by converting people to the church and by having as big of a posterity as you can have.

Lloyd Evans [01:35:02] Yeah, there's none of that with Jehovah's Witnesses. Yeah, it's perfectly fine for you to have no kids.

John Dehlin [01:35:07] Okay. So you, you get married between 21 and 25, maybe have one or two kids, and then you just get a job.

Lloyd Evans [01:35:18] Yeah. Although you're limited in what jobs you can get, usually because you've not been through college or university. So.

John Dehlin [01:35:24] Yeah, there's no doctor, lawyer, dentist, CEO type. Jehovah's Witnesses.

Lloyd Evans [01:35:31] It's not unheard of to be a doctor who's a Jehovah's Witness. But what will usually be the case is that they became a doctor and then they became a Jehovah's Witness. Or maybe their parents made an exception with them because it's not like it's a disfellowshipping offense. I went to college for two years, even though it was frowned on. I would say that particularly in the most. In recent years, it's really, really been clamped down on higher education. It's in what I would say, especially in recent years, like, it's been frowned on. It's been. When it gets to the point where they're making videos about it, things are getting very serious. So.

John Dehlin [01:36:11] Well, but I'm just thinking if you go to med school, you're going to have to take blood and do transfusions. How do you do that if you're a Jehovah's Witness?

Lloyd Evans [01:36:20] There's actually rules about that in the. I think it's a document called Correspondence Guidelines where it says that you, if you are ordered to perform a transfer if you're a nurse and you're ordered to perform a transfusion by your doctor, you are allowed to. But if you, if it's your decision, then you could be disfellowshipped for administering a transfusion. But I think the rules might have changed very recently. I would have to check, but they have thought about all of those, all of those eventualities. There's even a rule, I found a rule somewhere about giving transfusions to animals. Believe it or not, you couldn't, you could in theory get disfellowshipped for giving an animal a blood transfusion or allowing your animal to have a blood transfusion.

John Dehlin [01:37:08] So I would guess if I were a consultant for churches, I would say not having your members go to college and university is going to limit the income your church pulls in over time because you're not going to get all these super wealthy CEOs and dentists and lawyers and doctors and engineers all tithing or donating. They're just gonna all have to get jobs, unskilled or skilled labor that doesn't, you know, that you can get without going to a college or university, which

Lloyd Evans [01:37:46] is exhibit A in my list of reasons why I believe that the leadership of the Witnesses is predominantly deluded rather than cynical. I think that they, if it was purely about making money, then of course they'd be encouraging their followers to. At least they wouldn't ban college and university. But they do ban it because they, I think more than anything, they are, they are deluded. They've bought their own bs. The leaders.

John Dehlin [01:38:17] Yeah, because post Mormons are continually vexed, wondering if the church knows it's a cult and the church knows it's not true. The leaders. But they're perpetrating your fraud anyway versus just being sincere believers. I think it'd be much easier to be a Jehovah's Witness.

Lloyd Evans [01:38:33] We have the same debate in the XJW community. Are the leaders knowingly doing this? And I think the evidence suggests that. I think it's nuanced. I think that there's an element of cynicism because the higher up you are in an abusive group, the more exposed you are to the corrupt and abusive elements of your faith. So the more accountable you are. So there's got to be an element of cynicism. But I think that it's nuanced and I think that it's mostly delusion that fuels their control.

John Dehlin [01:39:11] Okay, and then who of the famous Jehovah's Witnesses been over the past century? World famous was Michael Jackson. Jehovah's Witness.

Lloyd Evans [01:39:21] He was. He disassociated. Who else? Serena Williams is an unbaptized Jehovah's Witness.

John Dehlin [01:39:32] Serena and. Wait, the tennis player?

Lloyd Evans [01:39:34] Yeah, Serena and Venus. They identify as Jehovah's Witnesses, but they're not baptized, which is why Serena, in particular can get away with, let's say, behavior that is unbecoming of a Jehovah's Witness.

John Dehlin [01:39:48] Like what.

Lloyd Evans [01:39:48] What did she do, particularly in the clothing department?

John Dehlin [01:39:51] She dresses immodestly.

Lloyd Evans [01:39:53] She dresses immodestly. And she is an LGBT advocate, which is very definitely not. Doesn't fall within the remus of being a Jehovah's Witness, but she's allowed to get away with that sort of thing because she's not baptized. And Prince was also a Jehovah's Witness when he died.

John Dehlin [01:40:11] Did he convert?

Lloyd Evans [01:40:12] Yeah, he converted. He. He was a. He was a jw. And although I think because he was. I think because he was a celebrity, he was allowed to get away with more than perhaps he would have.

John Dehlin [01:40:24] Yeah, because, like, he had some pretty nasty. Like Darling Nikki on Purple Rain. Like, that's one of the nastiest songs I've ever heard.

Lloyd Evans [01:40:31] Indeed. Yeah. I think. I think they kind of gave him a long leash because he was so famous and influential. You don't want to piss off a celebrity if you're a cult. So just.

John Dehlin [01:40:46] He wasn't like your Donny Osmond or your John Travolta. Tom Cruise. Was Prince ever, like, a missionary? A public advocate for Jehovah's Witnesses?

Lloyd Evans [01:40:55] He went preaching from door to door. Yeah, yeah. Well, but like, a video about him. But.

John Dehlin [01:41:01] But. But I just never remember growing up in the 80s or 90s. Like, him doing what Tom Cruise or John Travolta would have done, which is, like, not just going door to door, but, like, on a mass scale. Say, my religion's awesome. Did he do that?

Lloyd Evans [01:41:16] It was in the 90s when he converted, and I think he probably went through a phase where he took it very seriously, but as far as I know. Well, he definitely died of believing Jehovah's Witness. And listen, there's layers to how seriously you take things. I think he definitely had the indoctrination. He definitely. His mind was captive to the organization, even if not every facet of his life was in conformity with what Jehovah's Witnesses would expect. But again, because he was a celebrity, I think he was allowed to get away with a lot more because he

John Dehlin [01:41:55] was addicted to drugs. He died of a drug overdose.

Lloyd Evans [01:41:57] Right. Indeed. Yeah. And there's some suggestion that the drug overdose was painkilling, a painkilling drug that he was taking because of an operation that he had had where a blood transfusion had been refused. But we'll never know all the ins and outs of that. But it's not impossible that the prohibition on blood might have played some role in his health predicament.

John Dehlin [01:42:27] Wow. Any other famous Jehovah's Witnesses that we should know about?

Lloyd Evans [01:42:32] Gosh, I think President Eisenhower was raised a Witness. I don't think he was one. There are one or two off the top. Off the top of my head. I can't think of what their names.

John Dehlin [01:42:52] Dwight Eisenhower was raised.

Lloyd Evans [01:42:54] Terry shepherd on the View, who used to present the View, is an ex Jehovah's Witness. I can give you some ex JW celebrities. Luke Evans, British actor. A guy that played Lando Calrissian in the latest solo movie. Can't think of his name.

John Dehlin [01:43:19] Terrence Howard.

Lloyd Evans [01:43:21] Sorry, Terrence Howard isn't a JW. I think he's just. His wife might be a JW and he's pro JWs. But, yeah, it's not a really a huge celebrity thing because JWS don't actively seek to recruit celebrities. It just so happens that they end up having some celebrities in their numbers.

John Dehlin [01:43:44] This says the Notorious B.I.G. was raised Jehovah's Witness.

Lloyd Evans [01:43:49] Possibly. Possibly. Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:43:51] And then it's got Michelle Rodriguez and one of the Spice. One of the Spice Girls.

Lloyd Evans [01:43:56] Oh, yeah. Jerry Halliwell. She was raised to jw, but she isn't one anymore. But what you find is they don't necessarily speak out against a religion when they leave. Because, for example, if. If you're a celebrity and you leave Jehovah's Witnesses but your parents agree to still speak to you, you're not going to want to piss them off, are you? So they don't. They quite a lot. Quite often they won't speak out against the organization.

John Dehlin [01:44:20] That makes all the sense in the world. Okay, so you haven't had a lot of high profile.

Lloyd Evans [01:44:27] Don Glover is an exjw as well. That's the name I was thinking of. Who plays Lando Calrissian in the latest Wayans Brothers.

John Dehlin [01:44:34] Damon Wayans.

Lloyd Evans [01:44:35] Yes, that's the one yet.

John Dehlin [01:44:37] And the Wayans brothers. Janet Jackson, obviously.

Lloyd Evans [01:44:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:41] The Williams Sisters. Okay. All right. Well, that gives us a. Jerul was raised. So a lot of. A lot of entertainers were raised Jehovah's Witness. And Selena was an active Jehovah's Witness at the Time of her death. Okay.

Lloyd Evans [01:44:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:45:00] All right. Very cool. Well, this has been super fascinating. I. I have learned so much. Is there anything that I haven't asked you that I should have or that we haven't talked about that we should have, knowing that we won't do this today, but if you're willing, I would like to bring you back and then just do a classic Mormon Stories episode where I have you tell your story.

Lloyd Evans [01:45:29] That sounds fantastic. It's hard to imagine you omitting anything from this interview, but it's. We've certainly covered a lot of ground, and I'm grateful of the opportunity to represent the religion, albeit reluctantly in some instances.

John Dehlin [01:45:47] Okay. But you feel like we kind of covered the main stuff.

Lloyd Evans [01:45:51] Yeah, we've definitely gone into more detail that I'm. Than I'm accustomed to. So you've got some details out of me that I wasn't expecting.

John Dehlin [01:45:59] So definitely it looks like Michael Hutchins from INXS was.

Lloyd Evans [01:46:04] Yeah, that rings a bell. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:46:05] Yeah, that's. That's. My childhood is in excess. So he was raised Jehovah's Witness, probably.

Lloyd Evans [01:46:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:46:13] Okay. All right, cool. Well, I just can't thank you enough, Lloyd, for coming on Mormon Stories, for teaching us something about the history at the Jehovah's Witness movement, and for teaching us about what it's like to be a Jehovah's Witness. And I should have learned this a long time ago, but thank you for being willing to patiently take us through in our ignorance to learn more about your people. And we'll close the second part. Just saying, I'm so excited for part three where I'm going to bring you on and just have you tell your story, because I can't wait to hear all about it.

Lloyd Evans [01:46:49] Thank you. I can't reiterate enough what a huge pleasure it is to be on Mormon Stories and what a big fan I am of what you're doing. So please keep up the great work.

John Dehlin [01:47:00] Absolutely. All right, Lloyd, you're awesome. And, listeners, thanks for joining us. And stay tuned for another episode of Mormon Stories where we're going to dig into the life of Lloyd Evans, the reluctant apostate, who is a YouTuber. Are you a podcaster as well?

Lloyd Evans [01:47:21] Occasionally, but it's mostly the YouTube channel. John Cedars.

John Dehlin [01:47:25] So you're an author of two books and a YouTuber. And I didn't mention you appeared as a panelist and a consulting producer on Leah Remini's Scientology and the Aftermath special where they talked about Joe's Witnesses. So you've have you met the Leah Remini?

Lloyd Evans [01:47:43] Oh, yeah, She's a friend.

John Dehlin [01:47:45] Yeah. That's freaking awesome.

Lloyd Evans [01:47:47] Yeah, it was. I was very pleased to have the opportunity. And I think if you need a brief summary of some of the worst elements of the JW religion, you could do far worse than watch that aftermath special.

John Dehlin [01:48:02] And then, you know, Herm, you've written for Hemant Mehta's blog, the Friendly Atheist. I've met Hemant. He's a great guy.

Lloyd Evans [01:48:11] He's just. He's one of those unnervingly nice people, isn't he? That you see.

John Dehlin [01:48:15] Love that guy. All right, Lloyd, you're awesome, and I can't wait to bring you back, so thank you.

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