Welcome and Introduction to Mormon Stories Live

John Dehlin [00:00:02] Hello, everyone, and welcome to the pilot,

John Dehlin [00:00:05] the inaugural, the episode number one of Mormon Stories Live. It's a call in show where we discuss all things Mormon. I am one of your hosts for Today, Dr. John Dehlin. And I'm super excited to be joined today by my dear friends, Kolby and Cam Reddish.

John Dehlin [00:00:27] Hey, guys.

Kolby Reddish [00:00:28] Hey.

Cam Reddish [00:00:28] Hi.

John Dehlin [00:00:29] Thanks for joining us.

Kolby Reddish [00:00:30] Neither one of us are doctors, John.

John Dehlin [00:00:33] No, you are too.

John Dehlin [00:00:34] You're a. You're a doctor of Judah. Judicial, whatever that. J.D.

Guest [00:00:39] what?

Kolby Reddish [00:00:40] That barely, barely counts.

John Dehlin [00:00:41] Well, it counts.

John Dehlin [00:00:42] It's similar to the extent to which mine counts. I'm not a medical doctor.

Guest [00:00:48] Yeah.

Kolby Reddish [00:00:48] It's so great to be with you.

John Dehlin [00:00:50] Anyway,

Kolby Reddish [00:00:54] so.

John Dehlin [00:00:54] Yeah. So, Kolby, I think this show was your idea, but I'll start and just

John Dehlin [00:01:00] say that what we were thinking is it would be fun to pilot a

John Dehlin [00:01:05] weekly show where we discuss a topic

John Dehlin [00:01:11] about Mormonism and we invite a live audience not only to, you know, be a part of the show, but to even call in and participate. So for those of you who are joining us, welcome and we'll.

John Dehlin [00:01:28] We'll tell you how to join in a second. But Kolby and Cam, since this was kind of your ideas as well, why

John Dehlin [00:01:36] don't you guys introduce yourselves and tell us what your vision was?

Guest 2 [00:01:40] Yeah.

Kolby Reddish [00:01:40] Do you want to start?

Cam Reddish [00:01:42] How about you start?

Guest 3 [00:01:43] Okay.

Kolby Reddish [00:01:44] Well, we're Kolby and Cammie Reddish. We appeared with John about three years ago on an episode of Mormon Stories. Really just about a month after we had stopped attending church. And we dealt with the issue of kind of our faith crisis and what catalyzed our faith crisis. And I think if I remember right, it's episode 1550. I just remember because it's the same backwards and forwards. John and so, you know, have done a few different interviews with John since then. Like you talked about John. I am an attorney that practices in Boise, Idaho. And so I feel like I. I like processing arguments, I like processing data and looking at history and have really appreciated digging into those things both here with you sometimes and with other podcasters. And that's really, I think, an introduction to me.

Cam Reddish [00:02:32] Okay, well, I'm Cami Reddish, Kolby's wife, and I haven't done as many things as he has because, I don't know, this just doesn't. I don't really gravitate towards this, but I'm really excited to be here tonight. And when we started talking about doing something like this and then we started talking to John about it, I think that there's a really big need to understand each other in this space.

Cam Reddish [00:02:59] I think it's hard to go from all believing something so similar or even just having similar understandings of things to then all of a sudden be asking yourself questions that you, like, didn't even know existed. Like, I didn't know how to ask myself questions about what I believed. I just believed things. And so to have a show where people can call in and talk, it is so good to hear other people's perspectives and to hear how other people have processed things and to kind of be curious about each other and to kind of get the information that we want from each other, because it's hard to.

Cam Reddish [00:03:40] It's hard to process this. And the world is changing so fast that it becomes even harder and nothing will slow down. I think we've had so many conversations about how if we could just press pause for a second because we've got three little kids and, like, work and all of this stuff, and it doesn't ever stop. So to be able to talk to other people who are also asking questions and thinking about these things is just so valuable. So we're really excited to try it.

John Dehlin [00:04:08] Fun. All right, well, thanks for joining us. Let me go ahead and take everyone just through a couple slides, just to kind of try and set some ground rules for this initial episode. So today's the theme. The topic for today is going to be what do Mormons believe about God? Again, this is Mormon Stories Live. We hope to. Right now, we're considering kind of Thursday nights, maybe 6 to 8 as the time that we do the show. We'll be flexible on day and time, both as schedules demand and as we get feedback. Although, you know, again, this is just a pilot, so it could end after today as well. But that's going to be the topic for today.

Ground Rules and Show Format

John Dehlin [00:04:59] Couple, couple ground rules. We're not here to offer any authoritative perspective.

John Dehlin [00:05:04] I'm not presenting myself as the world's authoritative expert on Mormonism, although I do have 20 years of podcasting experience discussing Mormonism. And Kolby and Cam are really smart.

John Dehlin [00:05:19] But, you know, that's not what this is about.

John Dehlin [00:05:22] So that's not what we're here for. We're here to discuss the Mormon experience

John Dehlin [00:05:27] and to provide you, the Mormon Stories

John Dehlin [00:05:29] podcast audience, a chance to share your perspective. And of course, what we love to do on Mormon Stories Podcast to share is to create community. You know, I should note that there are a lot of really cool Mormon and ex Mormon shows that live stream these days. The Mormon Newscast with Rebecca Biblioteca Bill Real and Radio Free Mormon is every Mondays, I think, around 6 or 7pm I Mountain Time. I know that Wednesdays are Mormonism Live with Ready for Mormon and Bill Real. I know that Friday they do Mormonism After Dark. That's Bill and rfm. I think Mormonish may do something on Tuesday nights. That's Rebecca and Landon. So right now we're landing on Thursdays. But we also know the Culture hall

John Dehlin [00:06:20] has a great show.

John Dehlin [00:06:22] He's going to be appearing with colby Tonight at 8:30 Mountain after this show.

John Dehlin [00:06:28] But we have a lot of respect

John Dehlin [00:06:30] for all the different shows, and we're not trying to compete with them. We're just, you know, seeing if there's a demand or a need for this type of show. Okay, a couple other quick ground rules. Once we bring y' all on to, to comment, we ask that there's no hateful or bigoted speech, you know, no racism, sexism, homophobia. We, we avoid politics. We don't want to get political on the show. No defamation of anyone, meaning no accusing anyone of breaking the law or anything that could get us sued or could get you sued. We're not here to get sued. Even though Kolby is an attorney, we still don't want to get sued. Is that right, Kolby?

Kolby Reddish [00:07:22] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:07:24] Yeah. So none of that.

John Dehlin [00:07:26] No proselytizing. And, you know, we're here for just

John Dehlin [00:07:30] thoughtful and kind speech to be a bridge builder.

John Dehlin [00:07:33] Also, if you're a commenter, if we

John Dehlin [00:07:35] do bring you on, we ask you that your questions or comments be short, maybe a minute or less. And then if we want to follow up, we absolutely will.

John Dehlin [00:07:47] So that's kind of what the show's

John Dehlin [00:07:49] going to be about. And so Kolby and Cam, anything else before we jump in?

Kolby Reddish [00:07:58] No. I really liked how you emphasized that note of being a bridge builder. That's what we're seeking to do here. I like how you talked about, even with all the experience you had with inside of Mormonism, all of the experience we had with inside of Mormonism, I think one of the things that's very unique about it, I mean, maybe every religion is this way, but Mormonism has. It runs such a gamut of different perspectives and approaches. And so we're really here not to, you know, play any type of accusation game or mislabel Mormon beliefs. We're really here to talk about our perspective, having been in the church and answered people's sincere questions, whether they're believing, never Mormon, whatever it is. So the whole aim and goal of the show is to be bridge builders. And I hope people will join us in that if they join us.

John Dehlin [00:08:41] Amen okay.

John Dehlin [00:08:45] All right, so we'll go ahead and jump in. We do welcome, we do ask you all to subscribe to the channel Mormon Stories podcast, YouTube channel to like it.

John Dehlin [00:08:56] We really do welcome your super chat donations. That helps us recognize your comments and it motivates us to share them. So we would welcome you if you want us to display your comment and share, you'll, you'll be guaranteed that we'll show the comment if you send a little super chat along the way. Also, again, please like and subscribe. Subscribe, share and comment. And we really appreciate the Mormon stories. Monthly donors, there are bread and butter. Like, three quarters of our revenue just come from monthly donors who go to mormonstories.org click on the donate button. We couldn't do the show without them. So huge thanks.

Overview of Mormon Beliefs About God

John Dehlin [00:09:42] All right, so the way we're going to do today is I, I wrote

John Dehlin [00:09:48] a little essay in a platform called

John Dehlin [00:09:55] Substack.

John Dehlin [00:09:56] I've got a little channel there called Understanding Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:10:01] And I was trying to think about what I could, you know, write about,

John Dehlin [00:10:07] because I'm trying to write again. And the topic that occurred to me came from one of you, our viewers or listeners. And the, the question or the comment was this. It was from Natalie D. And she wrote, would a Mormon say that the God they believe in is the same God as other Christian denominations believe in? What about other faiths, Islam, Jewish, Hindu, etc. Are these all the same God, or is the Mormon God unique and not the same as any other faith, including other Christian faiths?

John Dehlin [00:10:41] So that was the question that we started with.

John Dehlin [00:10:44] I went ahead and wrote that article in Substack. I welcome you all to check it out. And that's going to be the basis of today's episode. And so what we'll do is I'll

John Dehlin [00:10:59] just kind of read through that.

John Dehlin [00:11:00] Maybe we'll have a few initial comments and then we're going to open it up for people to call in and share anything from whether they were taught different things as Mormons, whether they were taught the same things as Mormons, if they're never Mormon, what they think about,

John Dehlin [00:11:18] you know, what we've discussed, how they view God.

John Dehlin [00:11:22] We very much welcome our never Mormons to the show, as well as our believing and active Mormons.

John Dehlin [00:11:30] And then about, you know, I just,

John Dehlin [00:11:32] we just want to have a fun conversation.

John Dehlin [00:11:34] So that's what today is going to be about. And the only other thing I wanted to share is a little survey that

John Dehlin [00:11:42] I recently put out.

John Dehlin [00:11:43] Some of you may or may not

John Dehlin [00:11:45] know that on YouTube. We've got a little community where you can go, I ask questions. I can poll the YouTube audience and get their feedback.

John Dehlin [00:11:55] And so, in preparation for this episode, I went ahead and just administered a little poll. And the poll was, this is just four days ago.

John Dehlin [00:12:03] Which answer best describes your belief in God or the divine? Please provide details in the comments.

John Dehlin [00:12:10] And, Kolby and Cam, if y' all just. If y' all wouldn't be flabbergasted, I

John Dehlin [00:12:16] had 10,000 people respond to this poll.

John Dehlin [00:12:19] Isn't that crazy?

Kolby Reddish [00:12:21] Yeah, that's a lot of people. That's awesome.

John Dehlin [00:12:23] That's a large N, as they say

John Dehlin [00:12:25] in the research biz.

Kolby Reddish [00:12:27] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:12:27] It's a large sample. So, anyway, I was curious, and I asked which of the following four

John Dehlin [00:12:35] descriptions best describes your belief in God or the divine? Please provide details in the comments.

John Dehlin [00:12:41] And 35% of you of my viewing audience identifies as theist or, you know,

John Dehlin [00:12:48] they would ascribe to the statement, I

John Dehlin [00:12:50] believe in God, 27% of you. So less than the theists. 27% of you identify as atheists or say that you would not believe a God. Believe in God. I think I was surprised by that 27 number. Kolby and Cam, what do y' all

John Dehlin [00:13:07] think about the 27 number of Mormon stories viewers that identify as atheist?

John Dehlin [00:13:12] Would you have thought that to be

John Dehlin [00:13:13] higher, lower, or about that?

Kolby Reddish [00:13:14] I would have thought it would have been higher.

Cam Reddish [00:13:17] Oh, I was thinking it would have been lower.

Guest [00:13:19] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:13:21] Yeah, well, I think it's lower than

John Dehlin [00:13:23] I thought, but it's about a quarter.

Kolby Reddish [00:13:25] We're surprised in different directions.

John Dehlin [00:13:29] Yeah. So. So I guess, you know, kind of an even split between theist and atheist. And then I gave the category of some people who wanted to say they

John Dehlin [00:13:38] believed in some higher power or force,

John Dehlin [00:13:41] but they don't call it God. 18% of you identified with that description, and then 21% of you just said

John Dehlin [00:13:51] you're still trying to figure it out.

John Dehlin [00:13:53] So that's. That's an interesting distribution. And I thought I would start there.

John Dehlin [00:13:58] So maybe it's fair to say that a good, you know, 50% of y' all either believe in God or a higher power, so affirmatively. And then another quarter are still figuring it out.

John Dehlin [00:14:12] So 75% of the viewing audience either

John Dehlin [00:14:15] believes in God, believes in higher power, or is trying to figure it out. And I think that's. That's an interesting way to start.

John Dehlin [00:14:24] Okay, so maybe. Maybe we can go ahead and. Well, I wanted.

John Dehlin [00:14:32] I want to do one fun thing really quick. I want to bring on a New friend Kolby and Cammie, y' all aren't expecting this, but I want to bring on kb. KB is a friend that I recently met. We had KB on Mormon Stories podcast recently.

John Dehlin [00:14:48] Kb, do you want to tell us a little bit about yourself?

John Dehlin [00:14:51] Because I'm super thrilled you were able to join us today.

Guest 4 [00:14:54] Yeah, thanks so much for having me. I think we landed on a descript for descriptor for me as being the neverest, never Mormon to ever come on Mormon Stories.

John Dehlin [00:15:06] Isn't that a great. Not a great description, guys?

Guest 4 [00:15:09] So I'm gonna roll with that. We'll see where that takes us. But, yeah, I have never been Mormon, did not grow up religious, actually. My parents were of mixed faith, but kind of no faith. My dad grew up Jewish, my mom grew up Catholic. And John and I and Margi had a fascinating conversation about secularism and belief and all kinds of fun subject matter. So I'm really excited to dig in with you guys.

John Dehlin [00:15:47] Yeah. And.

John Dehlin [00:15:49] And if that's not impressive enough, KB is a former. Well, she's written for the New York Times.

John Dehlin [00:15:56] She's written for Vogue magazine.

John Dehlin [00:15:59] She currently writes for a subset of Elle magazine. El Decor. Right. That's a style based.

Guest 4 [00:16:06] Yeah, it's about interior design. So, yeah, I didn't include that. I guess I most identify as never Mormon nowadays, so I forgot to say I'm a writer, journalist, screenwriter. And as John said, I've done most of my work writing about culture, art, and artists, and for a big portion, actually, fashion.

Kolby Reddish [00:16:30] Wow, that's awesome.

John Dehlin [00:16:32] And KB's we've already interviewed KB.

John Dehlin [00:16:35] She was here last week, we interviewed her, and her episode will come out in a few weeks. So anyway, Katie, it's just fun to have you. So thanks for joining us.

Guest 4 [00:16:44] My favorite subject matter,

John Dehlin [00:16:47] at least. At least when you're in front of us, you'll tell us that, right?

Guest 4 [00:16:51] That's in front of you.

John Dehlin [00:16:54] I'm sure your editor might. Might want to hear something different.

Guest 4 [00:16:57] They're not in this chat.

John Dehlin [00:17:01] All right, well, I'll go ahead and begin. We've also got a few people joining

John Dehlin [00:17:06] us, and we want to just let everyone know that if you want to be a part of this show, We've pinned in YouTube a link to how to join the studio, and we invite y' all to. To join us there.

John Dehlin [00:17:26] Okay, so I've got the substack open

John Dehlin [00:17:28] and I'm just going to start reading and I'm going to invite y' all to jump in at any point. Is that okay?

Kolby Reddish [00:17:35] Yeah. Great.

John Dehlin [00:17:37] Okay, so here we Go. Hopefully this won't be more than 10 or 15 minutes. So since Joseph Smith and the Mormon Church both have changed their positions on God dramatically over the years, and since modern Mormons often vary in their beliefs, in this essay, I will focus on what I was taught as a Mormon in my 45 years as an active, faithful member, based mostly on Mormon scripture and teachings from top church leaders. So this is my article, what do Mormons Believe about God Again? On substack.

John Dehlin [00:18:11] So I started by grouping ways that Mormon God is possibly similar to what

John Dehlin [00:18:18] I call generic Judeo Christian God.

John Dehlin [00:18:21] Now, Kolby and Cam and audience, y' all should know that KB converted to Judaism while she was what, While you were a university student or.

Guest 4 [00:18:34] I was a year out of college, so I was about 21, and that

John Dehlin [00:18:39] it's fair to say that that active observance didn't persist.

Guest 4 [00:18:43] Right, KB I still participate and appreciate all of the rituals. You know, I think if I were to identify with a religious group, it would be Judaism, but Correct. I definitely did not continue the pursuit of the faith and being active, as you would say.

John Dehlin [00:19:03] Well, that's fantastic. That's fantastic because you can represent all

John Dehlin [00:19:06] Jews in today's episode.

Guest 4 [00:19:08] That is what I do not want to do. So, no, thanks.

John Dehlin [00:19:13] Just kidding. All right, all right.

How Mormon God Differs From Other Christian Conceptions

John Dehlin [00:19:16] So ways that Mormon God is possibly

John Dehlin [00:19:18] similar to generic Judeo Christian God, number

John Dehlin [00:19:21] one, Mormon God is all powerful. And I kind of gave a caveat

John Dehlin [00:19:27] that at least in comparison to humans, Mormons do believe that God has limits, that God has sort of universe, cosmic rules that God cannot

John Dehlin [00:19:41] break.

John Dehlin [00:19:42] So, Kolby, we could talk about that in a little bit.

Kolby Reddish [00:19:45] Okay, great.

John Dehlin [00:19:46] Kolby's got some. Some perspectives on that. But as far as humans go, God's pretty much all powerful. I'd say Mormon God is all knowing, knows everything, at least everything that. That we would, you know, be able to know or care to know. Mormon God is considered to be all loving, you know, the type of God that knows each of us, knows us

John Dehlin [00:20:12] better than ourselves, each of us individually,

John Dehlin [00:20:16] you know, knows our deepest desires, all of our secrets, knows our wishes, and loves us just infinitely. And not just each of us, but all of his billions and billions and billions of offspring that not only live, but have ever lived. So a very loving God, kind of like a heavenly Father, basically, with superpowers.

John Dehlin [00:20:47] Mormons are encouraged to pray daily to their heavenly Father and are promised that if they do, he will guide and

John Dehlin [00:20:54] bless us if we keep his commandments. So there's this condition that where the Lord is bound, if we do what he says, and he'll bless us and take care of us. If we don't do what he says, then we can fall under the trappings of Satan. And he might need to withhold blessings from us or even potentially curse us

John Dehlin [00:21:21] or allow demons to possess us or

John Dehlin [00:21:25] to tempt us or to, you know, do bad things to us.

John Dehlin [00:21:30] And I, you know, I would say

John Dehlin [00:21:32] the Holy Ghost is kind of his

John Dehlin [00:21:33] arm, you know, his way of speaking

John Dehlin [00:21:38] to us and communicating with us and inspiring us. And in Mormon theology, the Holy Ghost withdraws as a comfort if we make bad choices. So that's an important part of God and his communication and influence with us as Mormons.

John Dehlin [00:21:57] Mormon God's blessings are conditional.

John Dehlin [00:22:01] I just said this previously.

John Dehlin [00:22:04] So. And that includes healings, miracles, forgiveness. God won't forgive you unless you're sufficiently contrite and apologetic. He won't perform miracles with you if you're not righteous and worthy in many instances.

John Dehlin [00:22:24] And again, even if people try and heal you with priesthood blessings, they don't work if you're not faithful enough and worthy. So, you know,

John Dehlin [00:22:37] those are some broad,

John Dehlin [00:22:39] probably familiar characteristics of God that Christians and maybe even Jews can resonate with. I'm not going to speak for Muslims or Hindus. Not even going to try.

John Dehlin [00:22:53] We'll then, we'll then conclude with some maybe possibly unique aspects of Mormon God. So number six, as with generic Judeo

John Dehlin [00:23:10] Christian God, Mormon God can be conditionally benevolent while also simultaneously racist, misogynistic, violent, and even genocidal.

John Dehlin [00:23:20] And that's kind of a probably, that's probably a hard take, or what's it called, a hot take to call God

John Dehlin [00:23:31] racist and misogynistic and violent and even genocidal. But we have receipts

John Dehlin [00:23:38] so we could talk about that. And then. Yeah, and so we have, we have examples in the Old Testament of God,

John Dehlin [00:23:49] you know, drowning people in the flood

Guest [00:23:51] of,

John Dehlin [00:23:55] in the Book of Mormon, of God basically destroying, you know, leveling entire

John Dehlin [00:24:01] cities just because Jesus died and was

John Dehlin [00:24:04] resurrected and for some reason entire civilizations needed to be leveled and decimated, men, women and children. We've got God commanding Nephi to chop off the head of Laban in the Book of Mormon, just four chapters in, we've got God cursing Native Americans with dark skin because of wickedness, and God

John Dehlin [00:24:25] cursing black people with the curse of Cain as well.

John Dehlin [00:24:31] We've got, in the Doctrine and Covenants, we've got Mormon God threatening Emma Smith, where if she doesn't let Joseph Smith continue to practice polygamy, she'll be literally destroyed. I'm not Exaggerating. We've got, you know, probably the biggest, most violent thing of all is that in Mormon theology, if, you know, if you come to this earth and you believe and you are inspired by the Holy Ghost, but then the Holy Ghost leaves you, or if you stop believing after you've been given a witness by the Holy Ghost, then you're cast out into what's called. It's called. What's it called?

John Dehlin [00:25:21] Darkness.

Kolby Reddish [00:25:22] Outer darkness.

John Dehlin [00:25:23] Outer darkness where there's no forgiveness in this life or the next. And you're basically going to be in a lake of fire and brimstone with the devil and his angels, and it's eternal punishment.

John Dehlin [00:25:35] So, you know, those are some very harsh aspects to Mormon God that I

John Dehlin [00:25:41] think are also shared with those who believe in the Bible, at least partially, Jews and Christians alike.

John Dehlin [00:25:49] And then ways that Mormon God is

John Dehlin [00:25:51] possibly different from Christian God. Mormon God's formal name is Elohim. That's revelation that Joseph Smith received. I believe Mormon God is formerly mortal, human, male, who once lived on an earth similar to ours. There's a sort of a saying in Mormonism that is man is God, once was, and as God is man may become so. God was once a man like us.

John Dehlin [00:26:25] God is gendered.

John Dehlin [00:26:27] Mormons believe that gender is eternal, which means that God has a penis, has male organs, and that has always been

John Dehlin [00:26:39] so and will always be so, and

John Dehlin [00:26:41] that he uses those organs to. In some mysterious way that we don't totally understand.

Kolby Reddish [00:26:48] Can I ask KB a question about that?

John Dehlin [00:26:50] Sure.

Kolby Reddish [00:26:51] One of the. I think one of the things that makes Mormonism so unique is its literality when it comes to, like, the physicality of God. Like, is that something growing up outside of this system entirely that just seems really weird about Mormon beliefs, or what's your take on that?

Guest 4 [00:27:09] It definitely feels particular that there is this, like, corporeal aspect to God, and especially because since God was once a man, then, and so there is this opportunity to also become a God, there's this sort of, like, fluidity between the realms of heaven and earth that actually, yeah, feels much more literal and tangible and fascinating. And it also then kind of begs the question, right. Of, like, well, then how many other earths are there if. If God was a man? It just sort of, like, makes it feel very infinite and yet extremely tangible in this, like, mysterious way. But it. It's also very confounding, I think, compared to what I would have, like, casually heard about in other Western faiths growing up.

Kolby Reddish [00:28:05] Yeah, that's interesting. Thank you.

Guest 5 [00:28:07] Of course.

John Dehlin [00:28:07] Yeah, thanks. Thanks, kb.

John Dehlin [00:28:11] All right, what else about. Well, we're almost done, everyone.

John Dehlin [00:28:13] What else about Mormon God?

John Dehlin [00:28:16] Mormon Jesus is named Jehovah.

John Dehlin [00:28:18] So God is Elohim, Jesus is Jehovah. We don't do trinitarianism. In modern Mormonism, God and Jesus are not one. They're literally separate souls, separate entities, separate bodies. Jesus is literally the son, the physical son of God. Somehow, God mysteriously impregnated Mary and Jesus was born with some sort of celestial conception. That's, that's, you know, that's what I was taught growing up. So that's important. Let's see.

John Dehlin [00:28:59] God is definitely married. There's at least a heavenly mother.

John Dehlin [00:29:04] And in Mormon teachings, God is likely a polygamist, which means there are multiple heavenly mothers. Although Mormons are discouraged from discussing heavenly mother or praying to her by punishment of potentially, you know, excommunication.

John Dehlin [00:29:22] And the ultimate goal of have Mormon

John Dehlin [00:29:24] heavenly father, Mormon God is for all of us, his children, to become gods, to rule over other planets as God and goddesses, and to procreate with our bodies. Remember, gender is eternal, so women are

John Dehlin [00:29:45] also

John Dehlin [00:29:47] resurrected with their full anatomy. And somehow, in a way we don't understand, we as, as exalted beings as gods and goddesses, will somehow use our anatomy to procreate our billions of spirit children in the, in the worlds that we rule over in the afterlife.

John Dehlin [00:30:14] And the last thing I'll just say is that Mormons will likely want to

John Dehlin [00:30:19] downplay this teaching that some call theosis of, you know, humans becoming gods. But it's absolutely something that Joseph Smith taught.

John Dehlin [00:30:31] It's.

John Dehlin [00:30:31] I, I think many would say it's one of the most important of Joseph Smith's teachings. It's, it's been incorporated into the Mormon Temple over the years. I, I already shared the quote. As man now is God once was, and as God now, as man may become. That's been in Mormon Sunday school curriculum and doctrinal books for over 100 years. Doctrine and Covenants 132, 20 says, then

John Dehlin [00:31:00] shall they be gods because they have no end.

John Dehlin [00:31:03] Therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue, Then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power and the angels are subject to them.

John Dehlin [00:31:20] And, you know, it's worth also noting

John Dehlin [00:31:24] that DNC132, that section that I just quoted from, is referred to as the new and everlasting covenant within Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:31:33] So, you know, that's my quick take on what I learned.

John Dehlin [00:31:39] You know, Mormon God, Mormon heavenly father and mothers is all about.

John Dehlin [00:31:44] I'm not claiming that that's what everybody

John Dehlin [00:31:46] learned or what all Mormons believe, but that's sort of. I don't want to call it a straw man.

John Dehlin [00:31:51] That's the. That's the Mormon God that we'll put up as the starting point for today's conversation. And. And now I want to hear Kolby and Kim, what y'. All, Any reactions y' all will have to that. Kb, I'm curious about your reactions, and then I also want to let everyone know that we're inviting y' all to join us here in our livestream. If you go to YouTube at the top, there's a link to join us in Streamyard. And the only thing I'll say, even to those who've already joined us, is if I can't see your live video in your feed, I'm going to boot

Host Discussion and Audience Reactions

John Dehlin [00:32:28] you from the stream because we do

John Dehlin [00:32:31] want people who are willing to show

John Dehlin [00:32:34] their face as a part of this episode.

John Dehlin [00:32:37] So please withdraw or show your full face. And if you're viewing and listening and you want to participate in this conversation, please join. And we'd love to have you. All right, so Kolby and Cam, why don't you all start with whatever reactions you have to what I laid out?

Kolby Reddish [00:32:59] Yeah, I'll go ahead and start. And I think one of the things that's interesting, I like how you gave your experience, having grown up in the church, been raised in the church, served a mission for the church. That's basically your conception of God. And I think, oh, I just got horrible flashbacks saying conception in that episode you did, John, with those apologists.

Kolby Reddish [00:33:20] I'll try and avoid that word, but I think one of the things that's really interesting about Mormon theology is every single thing that we talk about tonight, there are either general authorities or scriptures that will often say the exact opposite of even the things that most people accept about the Mormon conception of God. And I only say that to signpost and say there will be people who say that's not the God I believe in, and I'm Mormon. We are talking from our experience and what we understood about God. I think the thing to me that was the most interesting of all the thoughts that you shared in that piece was the idea that Mormon God is all powerful.

Kolby Reddish [00:34:01] Because one of the, I think, kind of necessary extensions of the doctrine that God is a glorified, immortal man is that it means that God is not all powerful, at least in, like, the actual all powerful, omnipotent sense. Means that he is, like, maximally powerful or he gained, you know, he gained the. The most power that he can have according to these laws. What that means is that in Mormonism, it's hard to tell whether the laws are responsible for the way things are or God is responsible for the way things are. And I know believing Mormons that take a different.

Kolby Reddish [00:34:36] Take a different tack on this. I. I read a great dialogue piece a few years ago called Getting the Cosmology Right that kind of explores this. I was always of the opinion that the laws were prime, like, that the laws controlled God. And I think that's kind of an extension of what Joseph taught towards the end of his life. And I like how you highlighted both the church and Joseph Smith's theology has evolved a lot over time. So I really just wanted to signpost that and say we understand that there are different takes on these things. Even for believing Mormons. We're not trying to straw man their beliefs, just sharing what we believed as believers.

Kolby Reddish [00:35:11] And I definitely believed all of those things that, that you just shared. Maybe I didn't think so much about the, you know, the physical interaction between God and Mary to conceive Jesus, but I definitely had heard those quotes shared in seminary that talked about that being a literal event. And I think one of the things, especially for conventional Christians who didn't grow up inside of Mormonism, that it's often surprising for them to hear is just how literal Mormonism makes God. And the whole thing about.

Kolby Reddish [00:35:40] The whole thing about bodies, we're basically taught that we needed to come here to get bodies. For some reason we don't really fully understand to become like God. And that's the whole point of this existence. That last thought that you shared, that basically we're just, you know, joining in this same plan, that God himself was a beneficiary of that scripture, Moses 139, that talks about God's work and glory, really, I think sums up the whole Mormon conception of God's plan and the Godhood together's plan for all of us. And so I think you. You stated it really well. Those were kind of my introductory thoughts.

Guest 4 [00:36:16] Cool.

John Dehlin [00:36:17] How about you, Cam? Anything shock or surprise or.

Cam Reddish [00:36:21] I loved that you did that and, and wrote it all down and brought the receipts, because as a believing Mormon, I. I don't think I really thought about it. If someone had asked me what God is, who God is, to me, God was.

Cam Reddish [00:36:36] God was like love, God was comfort. And it was very generic and very elusive. My understanding of God, not that I didn't understand the doctrine. Like I served a mission and taught at the mtc and I, and I understood those things about God and I probably would have been confused when you read that second list because I had never, I would have never asked myself if God should have done those things. When you say like genocide and, and I just, I would have been like, oh yeah, that's a Bible story or that's a Book of Mormon story. My, it's like my brain would have stopped me and just been like, well, well, that's just a story.

Cam Reddish [00:37:16] God did what he had to do. I wasn't asking why he did it or should he have done it or any of those questions, which sounds so silly to me now because I, I would ask myself a whole bunch of questions in I guess the real world or in a different part of my life if I were, I think we even talked about this before. Like if I'm going to research something to buy online, like I'm going to read a bunch of reviews and I'm going to figure, figure out if it's right, a good fit for me or if I, if I really want it.

Cam Reddish [00:37:44] There's so many things I would ask myself because I feel like I'm a thorough, logical person. But I did not do that when it came to my concept of God. I did not ask myself questions like is this a person that I would want to follow? Or, or he was just, he represented the space that I place all of my worries and fears and that's just the way it was and I needed a space for that. And so I don't think I would allow myself to ever like dismantle that on my own, if that makes sense.

John Dehlin [00:38:19] Absolutely. Were you say something else?

Cam Reddish [00:38:22] I, I don't, I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:38:24] Okay. All right. No, that's a good, that's a good starting point. Before we bring in kb, we do

John Dehlin [00:38:31] have some super chats that have come in.

John Dehlin [00:38:34] Share them really quick.

John Dehlin [00:38:35] Jackie Payne, thanks for becoming a YouTube member. That's a way for you to support

John Dehlin [00:38:39] the show as well. Thank you Jackie. The great Colts from Cultural hall writes

John Dehlin [00:38:45] happy to see my favorite nitpicking rando lawyer and cammie on Mormon stories tonight.

John Dehlin [00:38:51] Oh, and hi John. Thanks. Colts. Check out cultural hall at 8:30pm tonight. He does great work.

John Dehlin [00:38:59] He's doing some of the most creative and fun work on the Mormon Internet these days. So thanks for joining us. K. Also, Guy McDude writes, Elohim is

John Dehlin [00:39:12] separate in physical being from Jesus holy

John Dehlin [00:39:16] ghost, but one in purpose. Like in the late 19s, late 90s Chicago Bulls team. And then he quotes doctrine and covenants 2028.

John Dehlin [00:39:28] So yeah, that's important.

John Dehlin [00:39:29] He's basically doing what many Mormon explainers did to me to say when the Book of Mormon or the Doctrine and Covenants says God and Jesus are one, what they mean is one in purpose.

John Dehlin [00:39:45] Now, Kolby, we've talked a lot about this.

John Dehlin [00:39:49] What likely is really going on there is that Joseph Smith's conception of God when he wrote the Book of Mormon, which some call trinitarian, others call modalist,

John Dehlin [00:40:03] but basically amounts to God, Jesus and

John Dehlin [00:40:05] the Holy Ghost all being the same divine being that changed over time, such that by the end of his life, Joseph Smith believed what I described now, that God and Jesus were totally separate beings.

John Dehlin [00:40:21] And so when the scriptures say that

John Dehlin [00:40:24] sort of thing, God and Jesus being one, it was meant one until the church had to come up with a new justification or explanation.

John Dehlin [00:40:32] Did I get that right, Kolby?

Kolby Reddish [00:40:34] Yeah, exactly. That's one of the things that's interesting about the list you shared is very few of the references that you gave came from the Book of Mormon. If people were to read the Book of Mormon, they would likely walk away with a much different impression of who God is. Messiah 15 even literally says that they are one God. It, it's probably the height of the Book of Mormon's trinitarianism. And so you're exactly right. People can walk away with that conception if that's all they've read from Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:41:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:04] All right, well, that's. Those are some great comments. Kb, what do you think about Mormon God? We're dying to hear a secular, cosmopolitan New York Jews perspective on, you know, on, on Mormon God.

Guest 4 [00:41:19] I'm really grateful that you had that list, actually. And Kolby, I'm happy for that clarification as well. That was. The trinitarianism of God in Mormonism was actually something that confused me, but it seems like that's because it's a little confusing.

Guest 4 [00:41:37] I think what struck me in that list, I mean, first there's the conditional aspect of love and forgiveness. You know, it seems like every, every advantage to being in relationship with God. And it does seem like an actual relationship is extremely conditional and is subject to punishment.

Guest 4 [00:42:04] I also wonder again, thinking about God as an immortal man and there being in Mormonism specifically this spiritual existence ahead of time on earth and the mysterious purpose of our time on earth. So, you know, the, the spirits are meant to have this experience in a body and yet the body's expressions, experiences feel extremely limited. And in Fact, very punishable. So I think I just end up feeling curious to pose the question of, you know, what is the bodily experience? Is it this kind of test?

Guest 4 [00:42:42] What is the function then of that extreme rigidity, aside from two control people? What is that doing for God? And then my final point, this is something that I actually dove into, John, ahead of our episode and then we never brought up, but I remember listening to a discussion, I believe it was a very, very early episode about the Mother God concept. And so hearing this again and this idea that God the Father is sort of triangulating with his children, like, don't talk to mom, she's nuts.

Heavenly Mother and Her Role in Mormon Theology

Guest 4 [00:43:22] That's, that's really fascinating. And like even just to have the figure of the Heavenly Mother, but she's out of reach. She is not actually the creator or bearer of these children, which is in direct opposition to creation. It's just a fascinating role and spiritual presence that's meant to be ignored. That's very, very interesting and also seems unique to Mormonism, as far as I know.

Cam Reddish [00:43:56] It's really funny that you say meant to be ignored because I think the purpose of Heavenly Mother becoming prominent in a thing was to, it was an effort to be inclusive, which is, it almost seems silly. You're completely right. That is probably, definitely what it looks like from the outside. But from the inside, as a member, I would have said things like, aren't we like so great and inclusive? We, we talk about heavenly, Heavenly Mother and nobody else does. But you're right, she's completely out of reach and not really involved in anything. And she's put in this like really elusive place that we can't access.

Guest 4 [00:44:35] She's unreachable and non functional. But you're right, I mean, I think in even reading God the Mother, that's why I would have listened to that episode and revisited it. Because on the surface it does feel like this inclusive and incredible concept. Especially, you know, for women members, I can imagine, to have that model to not just be instructed by a father, and yet there is no relationship with God the Mother or instruction from her whatsoever.

Kolby Reddish [00:45:04] Yeah. And I, not to get conspiratorial with it, but I think one big reason that they never want to talk really in any detail about Heavenly Mother is because the natural extension of the theology is that it's not Heavenly Mother, it's Heavenly Mothers. And that starts with some very uncomfortable questions of what exactly that looks like and what that means for people's next eternity. You, you might not know this as someone who wasn't Raised Mormon, but like the. The first.

Kolby Reddish [00:45:34] First counselor in the First Presidency. So like the number two in charge of the church, Dallin Oaks, he told a story a few conferences ago where they're talking about, you know, all the messages for the people in the church every six months. And he told this story about someone, some woman writing him trying to figure out the details of, like, who will I be with in the. You know, in the afterlife? And him basically playing it off as a laugh line and a joke, saying, don't worry about it. No one's going to be forced to be together. And so there. I think the brethren are hyper aware that people ask those questions, like about polygamy and eternal polygamy and what that means.

Kolby Reddish [00:46:08] And I think that KB is the reason that they really can never talk specific in any level of specificity about Heavenly Mother is because it suggests the natural question of, well, which heavenly Mother is my Heavenly Mother?

Guest 6 [00:46:21] Yeah.

Cam Reddish [00:46:21] Or what her purpose or role. They don't go any farther than just mentioning that she exists, which is supposed to be like this. It almost feels now like a bone that they threw us because we still are living inside of this patriarchy and this world where men do know best because they have this power from God, and that's the way that it's supposed to be. And so understanding it any differently didn't. Wouldn't make sense to us. But we felt like it was inclusive to be like, there's also this Heavenly Mother, and aren't we so special for recognizing that she exists or something like that exists?

Cam Reddish [00:46:57] And the other thing that you said when you mentioned, like, what the purpose is, like, you said it was mysterious. And you're right, it probably feels mysterious to everybody else, but we would constantly be talking about our purpose, but from our perspective, it was our purpose is to bring others to our purpose, which is to come unto Christ. Because that's what I was doing as a missionary. I was inviting others to come unto Christ. And then it was to get through the test. But I never again. I was living only inside of the story of Mormonism. And so I did not know how to ask myself the kinds of questions that would have gotten me a different perspective. So it's like I was stuck. I was stuck inside of that perspective just believing this is our purpose.

Guest 7 [00:47:45] I just.

Cam Reddish [00:47:46] I just know it's my purpose. And then you're kind of trained from a young age to develop this, like, knowing of your purpose and that God is real and that he loves you. And. And it's a very, like, patient. It's not like this forced thing. It feels like we're nurtured into believing that we know God exists because we practice saying it every fast Sunday, which happens once a month at church. People can go up and bear their testimony about knowing that God exists. And this is the plan. And, you know, Mormonism is true and Joseph Smith was a prophet. And so we just kind of had this model given to us and, and then I, I knew it and I believed it and I testified of it and I ne.

Cam Reddish [00:48:30] I never even once thought about anything outside of it in any type of relevant way, which is kind of sad to, to admit, but it's just what I lived inside of.

John Dehlin [00:48:42] Beautiful Cammie and Kolby. I'll just add really quickly that what I was told growing up is the reason why we don't talk about Heavenly Mother is because she's so sacred that Heavenly Father doesn't want us, you know, saying her name in vain or desecrating her or disrespecting her in any way. So it's almost like a benevolent patriarchy where Heavenly Father is lovingly shielding Heavenly

Cam Reddish [00:49:11] Mother respectful to her by not talking

John Dehlin [00:49:14] from any, you know, any possible disrespect.

John Dehlin [00:49:18] And then I also just find it

John Dehlin [00:49:20] weird that in the Mormon Temple ceremony when it literally depicts videos of the creation of all things. It's got Elohim, it's got Jehovah, they're both white bearded dudes. It's got Peter, James and John all up in the councils of Heaven talking about the creation of the earth, coming back and forth from heaven to the earth to create the earth. No mention of Heavenly Mother being involved in any of that creation. Kb, have we overwhelmed you with Mother, Heavenly Mother info?

Guest 4 [00:49:56] Not at all. And it's very interesting to hear the visual of the video because I've only read the transcripts I wouldn't have actually seen. So even just having that visual is pretty interesting. But. No, I mean, it seems like there's a lot of tension there, but it also makes so much sense that for a polygamist like Joseph Smith, you know, in his conception of the immortal man God, that, that God would have multiple wives, that there would be plural Heavenly Mothers. And to have that kind of held up as this unique, respectful, even loving acknowledgment is so interesting because it also then sort of points this light into a question that's obviously such a source of tension within the church.

Kolby Reddish [00:50:48] Well, and that actually connects to something you said earlier or another question you had. K.B. before you asked about Heavenly Mother, you were talking about kind of the literality of it and the conditional nature of God's promises inside of Mormonism. And to that point of, you know, talking about how you can kind of see Joseph Smith's roots in the Heavenly Mother thing, you can also, you also might not know and might see Joseph Smith's roots in the fact that he was literally a treasure digger, a folk magic treasure digger before he got involved in Mormonism at all. So this was several years before that. And a big feature of that folk magic, treasure digging worldview were these special conditions.

Kolby Reddish [00:51:27] There are stories from Joseph's neighbors when he was a kid involving, you know, animal sacrifice and making sure you had to do all of these steps exactly right in the exactly right order or the spell wouldn't work right. It's, it's like almost like Harry Potter. You have to have all the, you have to have all the ingredients exactly right. And so a big, what I'm a big fan of today is looking at the model and saying, is this model of God more consistent with what I think a real God would do, or is it more consistent with a, you know, a treasure digging, folk magic participant?

Kolby Reddish [00:52:01] And when I look at stuff like that, that literality, that idea that you're binding God is even, I think, related to the idea that you could bind treasure guardian spirits and you could bind the spirits of the dead and all this stuff. And I think that's really interesting, the one last note I'd say about Heavenly Mother, because it, it is something that is found in the Bible.

Kolby Reddish [00:52:22] It is something that was found in, I think, pre exilic judaism. So around 600 BC is, I think, when it basically was transitioned out of Jewish practice and it basically was God's consort. Asherah is, is what you would want to look at, look at if you want more of a history and how that plays into, in ancient Judaism at least. And that's actually one of the things that Mormon apologists talk about. The depth of this teaching of Heavenly Mother connects to this ancient Jewish practice that basically was abandoned in later Jewish practices as the Old Testament continued.

John Dehlin [00:53:00] Is that stuff you've heard about KB

Guest 4 [00:53:04] yes, actually, I've researched it, you know, not only in the context of ancient Judaism, but in ancient religion as a whole, because the mother God figure was the central figure of worship in so many traditions. And as a woman, you know, I wondered, wondered what happened to her.

John Dehlin [00:53:28] Love it.

Call-In Guests Begin: Faith Journeys of Young Women

John Dehlin [00:53:29] All right, well, I think if it's okay, let's start bringing on our call in guests. We've got several people who have called

John Dehlin [00:53:37] in and let's start bringing them on.

John Dehlin [00:53:40] So, Katie, I think we're going to bring you on first. Hey, Katie.

Guest 8 [00:53:44] Hi.

Guest 9 [00:53:45] Can you guys hear me?

John Dehlin [00:53:46] Yeah. Welcome to Mormon Stories podcast. What a treat to have you.

Guest 9 [00:53:49] Yeah, this is fun.

John Dehlin [00:53:51] Katie, tell us just a bit about yourself.

John Dehlin [00:53:52] Give us your 30 second profile.

Guest 9 [00:53:55] Yeah, so I'm in my early 20s. I live in Logan. I'm a student at Utah State.

John Dehlin [00:54:00] Wait, you're an Aggie? Are you kidding me right now? Are you freaking kidding me?

Guest 9 [00:54:05] I'm in Logan right now. So I just finished finals.

John Dehlin [00:54:08] Show me the Scotsman who doesn't love the thistle,

Guest 9 [00:54:13] I guess, as far as I know.

John Dehlin [00:54:17] Hey, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. I was just excited.

John Dehlin [00:54:21] You're a USU student. Go Aggies. What else?

Guest 9 [00:54:25] I guess the big thing, like, I grew up Mormon. I kind of lost my faith when I was 17. I actually went to a private, like, LDS based school for kindergarten through 12th grade.

Guest [00:54:38] Whoa.

John Dehlin [00:54:38] Kind of an interesting experience.

Guest 9 [00:54:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:41] Okay, and you say you lost your

John Dehlin [00:54:44] faith while you were in high school.

John Dehlin [00:54:46] How'd that happen?

Guest 9 [00:54:48] Well, I read the CES letter in class. Like, like, not. We weren't supposed to. I was just not doing what I was supposed to. And I read it in, like, my history class, and I was like, oh, I'm done. So.

John Dehlin [00:55:01] Yeah, so like you said there on your phone in, like, conservative Mormon, private

John Dehlin [00:55:07] high school, reading the CS letter on

John Dehlin [00:55:10] your phone during history class.

Guest 9 [00:55:12] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:55:13] Why are you smiling? KB what's so.

Guest [00:55:14] What's so.

John Dehlin [00:55:15] Why is KB smiling?

Guest 9 [00:55:17] I think it's just funny.

Guest 4 [00:55:20] It's a cinematic scene. I mean, what an incredible moment, because you could not be in. You almost couldn't be in a more Mormon context. But also then the symbolism, especially for your generation, like, oh, the access to the Internet is what is, like, the end of faith.

Guest 5 [00:55:38] Right.

Guest 4 [00:55:38] And you just can bring that up in class and have faith dissolve before your very eyes.

Kolby Reddish [00:55:45] Wow, you put some Nora Jones behind that, and you've got a really heart film, you know, but I also.

Guest 4 [00:55:51] I also give you so much credit, you know, I mean, I'm. I'm so curious to hear what else you're gonna say, Katie.

John Dehlin [00:55:58] What town? Are you able to say your hometown?

John Dehlin [00:55:59] Or would you rather not?

Guest 9 [00:56:01] I can. My parents. I'm from Highland. Highland, Utah. Utah.

John Dehlin [00:56:05] That's Utah County. That's, like, right next to Alpine and Lehigh.

John Dehlin [00:56:09] That's prime orthodox Mormon real estate.

Cam Reddish [00:56:13] Okay, so who's the first person you told after you read the CES letter? And then, like, what did you do when you felt like you were done, so.

Guest 9 [00:56:22] I actually have a really good relationship with my parents. My parents are, like, still active and in. But I talk to them about it a lot, like, basically immediately. And we still. We still talk about it to this day, so they're. They're. They've been really, really great. And my. My dad's, like, familiar with everything, and we can have good, open conversations, even though we disagree at the end of the day.

Kolby Reddish [00:56:44] Was there one part of the CS letter or one argument in it particular that you felt like was just the last straw, or was it. Was it kind of the collective piece of it, or what was it exactly?

Guest 9 [00:56:58] I think it was, like, the polygamy thing. I always, like, really struggled with that. And then the Book of Abraham, I think, were the top. Top two. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:08] Those are biggies.

Guest 9 [00:57:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:11] How old are you now, if you want to share, Katie?

Guest 9 [00:57:13] I'm 22.

John Dehlin [00:57:15] That's amazing. Okay. Well, you're. You got us all beat in wisdom, I'd say, you know.

John Dehlin [00:57:22] But anyway, I'm curious. Tell us. Tell us to what extent how what I read about what I was taught about Mormon God does or doesn't align

John Dehlin [00:57:33] with kind of what you were taught,

John Dehlin [00:57:35] because you're, like, two generations prior or after me, two or three generations after me. And I'm curious whether you were taught

John Dehlin [00:57:44] a totally different God or not.

Guest 9 [00:57:47] So I think a lot of things, like, were super similar. Especially, like, the big thing that stuck out to me is I was, like, explicitly taught that God was, like, once a man, and so we had the capability to become, like, I guess, goddesses. In my. In my case, I was explicitly taught that in church and at school. So it was kind of, like, shocking to me when they kind of backpedaled on that. The only thing that I would say I didn't really. I wasn't super taught was, like, the whole. The whole thing with Mary and, like, God. They're trying to, like, kind of. Kind of explain how that happened. I never really. That was never really explained or. I never really thought about that.

John Dehlin [00:58:28] Yeah. And I'm curious if Kolby and Kim, if that was a shocker to you. I could just tell you. I remember reading it in, like, Joseph Fielding Smith's Doctrines of Salvation, I believe. I think it was called the Condescension of God.

John Dehlin [00:58:43] I think the Book of Mormon even

John Dehlin [00:58:45] might make allusions to it.

John Dehlin [00:58:47] But I can see why the church wouldn't want to teach that to modern people. And honestly, it's one of the types of things that the movie, the God Makers that came out in the early

John Dehlin [00:58:58] 80s probably would have made fun of

John Dehlin [00:59:01] and embarrassed the church to the point of. Of no longer really teaching it and trying to strip it out of books like Mormon doctrine and, you know, modern Mormon Church curriculum.

John Dehlin [00:59:13] But Kolby and Cam, was that a

John Dehlin [00:59:15] stretch for y' all based on what, what you heard?

Cam Reddish [00:59:18] I don't ever remember being taught that, but I do remember one instance of a missionary asking about it when I taught at the mtc. And. And so I. I mean, I looked up a quote or something, but no, I don't. I don't think it was a big part of anything that I was taught. But it makes sense because the church, they. They really are structured in a way with members teaching their lessons that embarrassing things that. That come up and things like that, they can easily fall through the cracks because we don't like talking about stuff that doesn't feel right or good. And so even if it is mentioned somewhere in the doctrine or it can get lost so easily because we're constantly turning over with just member teachers for Sunday school and things like that. And so I can see it kind of falling off really quickly. But previously being taught, yeah, I definitely

Kolby Reddish [01:00:13] remember talking about it with mission companions, and I definitely remember reading probably the book that you were talking about, John, or reading talks about it. I think it's also just kind of the only logical implication. So it's like, even if the church doesn't teach it explicitly, there's really no other explanation but that he is the literal, like the literal physical son of God. And that would mean, you know, obviously that he did have some form of physical intercourse with Mary, but also, like, just, you know.

John Dehlin [01:00:46] And I'm curious if our viewers and

John Dehlin [01:00:48] listeners want to share their perspective in the comments about celestial intercourse, basically, or if you'll forgive the candidness.

John Dehlin [01:00:58] But why else would we. Number one, why else would the brethren

John Dehlin [01:01:02] be so insistent that gender is eternal?

John Dehlin [01:01:06] Like, one of the reasons the Mormon Church is so anti transgender right now

John Dehlin [01:01:11] is because they believe that gender is eternal.

John Dehlin [01:01:13] Why is gender eternal? Well, part of it is the church

John Dehlin [01:01:16] doesn't know the difference between biological sex and gender. It just sort of munges them all into one thing. It means sex when it says gender, sort of.

John Dehlin [01:01:26] But also, if even if our bodies are to be resurrected such that not one hair of the head shall be

John Dehlin [01:01:34] lost, I think the scriptures say, then

John Dehlin [01:01:36] why do we have penises and vaginas

John Dehlin [01:01:39] as celestial beings, like we believe?

John Dehlin [01:01:42] Like the Mormon Church used to forbid

John Dehlin [01:01:44] cremation or discourage it because it would

John Dehlin [01:01:47] make the resurrection more difficult because all the cells would be scattered and I guess harder for God to reassemble. But. But again, why. It's because the physical body, all the

John Dehlin [01:02:02] anatomy is used in heaven eternally.

John Dehlin [01:02:07] So, you know, I want, if. If somebody disagrees, if they have a

John Dehlin [01:02:11] hot take, we want to bring them on the show to disagree with us or to tell us a different perspective.

Guest 7 [01:02:17] I think.

Kolby Reddish [01:02:18] I think what you're saying, John, is we finally figure out what our appendix is for in the celestial kingdom. That's what you're saying.

John Dehlin [01:02:25] Maybe it provides some sort of juzh in celestial copulation.

John Dehlin [01:02:29] I don't know. I don't know.

Guest 4 [01:02:32] Just make sure that men still have authority eternally.

Cam Reddish [01:02:37] That's definitely.

Guest 4 [01:02:38] If we neutralize, you know, if gender becomes ambiguous in eternity, how do we know who's boss?

Guest 5 [01:02:47] Who's.

Guest 4 [01:02:47] Who are the patriarchs? You can't lose patriarchy in heaven. You need a patriarch. Heaven absolutely sounds greater.

John Dehlin [01:02:59] Well, Katie, we'd love to. We'd love to have you back up Mormon stories to tell your Mormon story,

John Dehlin [01:03:05] if that's something you would ever want to do. No pressure.

Guest 9 [01:03:09] Yeah, no, I. I'd be willing to.

John Dehlin [01:03:12] Okay. All right, we'll apply. Will you apply? Just go to MormonStories.org and apply.

John Dehlin [01:03:18] And we would love to have you,

John Dehlin [01:03:19] because I, I love, love to interview. I assume you, sir. Did you serve. You probably didn't serve a mission, did you, Katie?

Guest 9 [01:03:26] No.

John Dehlin [01:03:27] So you kind of bucked the trend there.

John Dehlin [01:03:29] Well, I love to have on Mormon stories, young people. Oh, let me just ask you this while you're here, Katie. There's new data out that young women are leaving the Mormon Church at a much, much higher rate than men. Can you give us your quick three top reasons why you think Mormon women

John Dehlin [01:03:49] are leaving the church?

John Dehlin [01:03:51] You know, based on your experience and

John Dehlin [01:03:54] other people, you know, So I think

Guest 9 [01:03:57] something that's interesting that I've experienced is when I talk, like when I want to talk about these hard things with my family, my dad, I'm able to have the conversation with my dad, but I'm not able to have it with my. With my mom. And I think it's because it's too painful. So I feel like when women come across these things and they. They recognize them, then they. It's a harder way to like, I guess it's harder for them to reconcile it. And so they just kind of throw. Throw everything out, if that makes sense.

John Dehlin [01:04:27] Okay. Why do you think young women your

John Dehlin [01:04:30] age are leaving the church at such high rates based on Your experience, obviously learning about church truth claims was a big deal for you. You may know other women your age who have left the church. Anything else you'd add for why the Mormon Church is losing its women?

Guest 9 [01:04:48] I think the Internet, like just the availability to information is a big thing. And I think I, I think it's more personal with women than it is with men because the information that they find, I think it's more emotional for women to figure those things out, if that makes any sense.

John Dehlin [01:05:06] Sure.

John Dehlin [01:05:07] Yeah, it does.

John Dehlin [01:05:09] All right, Katie, well, thanks for calling in. You can stay on the line if you want. We're going to bring in some of our other participants. But it's so great to have you call in. You're kind of other than kb you're for.

John Dehlin [01:05:21] You're our first call in guest on Mormon Stories Live.

John Dehlin [01:05:24] What a treat.

Guest 9 [01:05:25] Thank you so much.

John Dehlin [01:05:27] All right, we'll see you soon, Katie.

Guest 3 [01:05:29] Bye.

John Dehlin [01:05:30] Okay, let's go ahead and bring on next Maya. Hey, Maya.

Guest 4 [01:05:37] Hi.

Guest 3 [01:05:38] How are you guys doing?

John Dehlin [01:05:39] Welcome to Mormon Stories Live.

Guest 9 [01:05:41] Hello.

Guest 3 [01:05:42] How is everyone?

Guest 8 [01:05:43] Great.

John Dehlin [01:05:44] Tell us where you're calling, where you're joining us from and a little bit about yourself.

Guest 3 [01:05:50] So currently I'm living in Orem. I work in Provo at the hospital. But I am from kind of all over the state. But more recently I, the most I've lived was in Roosevelt, which is a Podunk town in the Uena basin.

Guest 3 [01:06:08] Very close minded people, very tight knit group of people. But I am the only person in my entire family except one that has openly left the church. My entire family is very, very Mormon. I grew up very, very Mormon.

Guest 3 [01:06:27] So I am very familiar with all of it. But I chose to leave. I started losing my faith when I was about 15, 16. I realized that I was bisexual and I had kind of this like crazy crisis about it.

Guest 3 [01:06:43] I thought I was going to go to hell and I thought, you know, the world is ending and all this, all the things. So after that, little by little, I just kind of did a little bit of research and kind of just started exploring other people's points of views.

Guest 3 [01:06:58] And I think the number one thing that really sold everything was I saw videos of what happened in the temple posted by the creator, new name Noah. And I don't know how many people know about him or anything, but those really shook me. It was very scary. I was like, why is this never talked about and even you know, you can talk about how great the temple is or how much people feel the spirit in there. But seeing those videos, I was like, oh my God, this is a cult. And I freaked out. It was kind of shocking just to see those videos and I don't know if anyone else has seen them.

John Dehlin [01:07:41] How old. Yeah, how old were you when that happened?

Guest 3 [01:07:44] So I think I was probably 16 or 17. I'm 21 now, turning 22 this year. I think I was about 16, turning 17 when I saw those videos and it really jarred me.

John Dehlin [01:07:57] Wow. Okay.

Guest 3 [01:07:59] So.

John Dehlin [01:07:59] Wow.

John Dehlin [01:07:59] Well, that's cool.

John Dehlin [01:08:00] Wow.

John Dehlin [01:08:00] So another young, a Mormon young woman who left around age 16. That's kind of interesting. And you're in your mid-20s now, you say?

Guest 3 [01:08:12] Yeah, so I'm 21.

John Dehlin [01:08:14] Yeah. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:08:15] Similar. So similar to our previous guest.

Guest 3 [01:08:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:18] Well, tell us what, from your perspective, what we got right or wrong about Mormon God, how it was the same

John Dehlin [01:08:24] or different from the Mormon God you were taught. If you want to share.

Guest 3 [01:08:28] Yeah, so I definitely aligned with a lot of the things that were said, really the. And I, I also aligned with a lot of the things that were said about, you know, when we were talking about Heavenly Mother, I was told that, you know, we never talk about her for fear of she'll be made fun of or mocked or whatever.

Guest 3 [01:08:49] And so she's just never brought up ever, point blank. And then, you know, Mormon God, I was, you know, I was taught, oh, he loves us all. He knows us all better than ourselves. He knows everyone individually and, you know, kind of that whole deal. But with the conditions and with the commandments and with the, oh, I'll grant you blessings and I'll grant you this and this as long as you do what I say. But if you don't do what I say, I'm going to come back with a vengeance and you're going to be cursed and you're going to be punished.

Guest 3 [01:09:24] But I also, I don't know if this is just my family or if anyone else was taught this, but I was also taught that we were going to get like our own planets. Like, you know, if we achieved that celestial, celestialness, we were going to get our own planets and our own, you know, we were going to become that God and we were going to get our own mansions and everything like that. And so I, when I was younger, was like super excited about that because, you know, in my immaturity I was like, oh my gosh, I'm going to have a mansion, you know, I'm going to be rich in heavenly whatever.

Guest 3 [01:10:01] And I was so excited about it because, you know, but then, you know, once I started to kind of have those doubts and things like That I was like, but. But what's on the line? You know, I was like, I can't lose what's on the line. But, you know, little by little, it just came less and less of an achievable, Achievable thing.

John Dehlin [01:10:24] So I love it.

John Dehlin [01:10:25] Okay. Yeah. And. And one of the curiosities about this

John Dehlin [01:10:32] doctrine that we could become God someday

John Dehlin [01:10:34] is that it's kind of like the crowning purpose of Mormonism. And if you ask a modern Mormon, do you believe that you'll become a God someday and you can have your own planets? Tell me if I'm wrong, but I think a Mormon, if asked that bluntly and directly, would tend to want to

John Dehlin [01:10:53] downplay that or even deny it.

John Dehlin [01:10:57] And it seems like the church also in modern times wants to downplay or deny it. Is that Yalls experience?

Kolby Reddish [01:11:06] Yeah, Ever since it was in the Book of Mormon musical as a punchline of a song. There's even a gospel topics essay. So, kb, I'm not sure if you've ever heard about the gospel topics essays, but they're basically a Collection originally of 13 different essays written anonymously but released on the church's website and on their gospel library app, where people can access the scriptures, but they deal with different, like, controversial issues inside of Mormonism. So there are actually, I think, three essays on polygamy, one on the book of Abraham, and there's actually one about this, about what it means to become your own God or to.

Kolby Reddish [01:11:42] To become like God. And whether you get your own planet, you know, believing Mormons today, I. I think, like, you're right, John. They'll mostly say that that's just a caricature of what they believe. They don't really believe in getting your own planet. But I definitely remember as a kid, you know, as an 80s baby that was growing up in the 90s, having a primary lesson talking about this very thing. Because I grew up in the age when Pokemon was a rage, and I remember drawing a my world occupied with Pokemon brought to life. So I definitely remember being taught this.

John Dehlin [01:12:16] But also I remember Gordon B. Hinckley,

John Dehlin [01:12:18] when asked about this teaching, saying, it's just a couplet. I don't know that we teach it. I don't know that we emphasize it. Trying to sort of like double speak one way to the internal Mormon audience and a different way to the general public.

Guest 4 [01:12:36] How interesting to have a literal, immortal man God, though, and then within that particular part of scripture to say, oh, that's just this, like, conceptual, you know, piece of writing. This isn't a literal belief. But then to know that you were promised a mansion. I mean, not just conceiving of an afterlife, but that I could write about your mansion in El Decor. You know, this is like a real. Who's picking out the. The couches? Like, that's very, very detailed, very literal.

Guest 3 [01:13:09] The interesting thing was, too, is in my, you know, in my literal brain, I was thinking like, oh, I'm gonna have this mansion. And then as I got older and I kind of started deconstructing a little bit, I was like, I was promised a great and spacious building. And now, you know, since I've left the church and I've really, you know, I've become wayward. I'm like, well, I'd just be living it up in the great and spacious building, so I might as well have gotten all my. All my promises.

Guest 4 [01:13:39] So did you ever conceive, you know, is God coming into that home? Are you having a dinner party? I'm just thinking in terms of the, like, mental image and that relationship and bestowing this goodness and these gifts in the celestial kingdom. Is God there in that image?

Guest 6 [01:13:58] As a.

Guest 4 [01:13:59] As a kid, in the. Growing up Mormon, I kind of thought

Guest 3 [01:14:02] of it as like. And this sounds really weird when I say it out loud, but I kind of thought of it as like a galactic neighborhood. Like, everyone with their own planets, you know, everyone had their own little, you know, whatever they chose to create or whatever. But because we were going to become godlike and, you know, be able to do whatever, we were just going to be able to transport ourselves, you know, I was like, oh, my family, they're going to have their own planets. We we'll just be able to basically teleport, I guess, for lack of a better term, there and back. And, you know, God, if he wants, he can stop in.

Guest 3 [01:14:37] Heavenly Mother, she can stop in. It'll be like, you know, Sunday dinner. Everyone. Like, that's just how it was in my brain as a kid. I was like, everyone's going to have their own little area and we can do whatever we want, but we can visit each other almost like a video game. We can visit each other's worlds. You know, we can see what everyone else has created and take inspiration or, you know, visit and things like that. And I guess what also came from that was, you know, we're taught and KB I don't know how much, you know, about the three levels of heaven or whatever, but I need to get a life.

Guest 4 [01:15:09] That's why I'm here.

Guest 3 [01:15:12] We're taught that at Least I was taught, taught that if you make it to the celestial kingdom, you can go and visit whoever else in the terrestrial and telescope. If you are in the terrestrial and telestial, you cannot go up, you can't visit anywhere else. You can only reside in wherever you are put. So my, I wanted to strive and I wanted my family to strive to be in that celestial or at least make it somewhere so that I could be visited or I could visit others kind of a deal. So it was kind of just this like galactic neighborhood in my mind.

John Dehlin [01:15:47] Well, Maya, it's so fun to have you join us.

John Dehlin [01:15:50] Thanks for being our second or third call in guest for tonight's show.

Guest 3 [01:15:54] Thank you for having me. I love your show a lot.

John Dehlin [01:15:58] We'll come back anytime.

John Dehlin [01:15:59] All right, perfect.

Guest 3 [01:16:01] It was nice talking to you guys. Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:16:03] Likewise. Thanks. Thanks for joining us, Maya.

Caller Andrew on Philosophy and Leaving the Church

John Dehlin [01:16:08] All right, well let's go ahead and go to our next guest. Our next guest is Andrew. Andrew, you keep moving your camera around.

John Dehlin [01:16:18] It's frustrating me.

Guest 4 [01:16:21] You're on your.

John Dehlin [01:16:22] We can't hear.

John Dehlin [01:16:22] You're muted. Andrew, you need to unmute yourself.

Guest [01:16:26] Okay. Can you hear me now?

John Dehlin [01:16:28] Yeah. Can you turn your camera 90 degrees?

Guest [01:16:32] 90 degrees?

John Dehlin [01:16:34] Yeah, just sideways. Then, then we can see the full shot.

Guest [01:16:37] Ah, like this.

John Dehlin [01:16:39] Okay, beautiful. Thanks for joining us on Mormon Stories live.

Guest [01:16:43] Yeah, I, I apologize for that. I've got a son with special needs and sometimes I'm, I'm dealing with some like things I need to help regulate.

John Dehlin [01:16:58] No worries, no worries. Tell us what you got on this topic. Thanks for joining us.

Guest [01:17:04] Yeah, I really appreciate it. This is a, this has been super fascinating. So I'm 36, I live in the Boise area in Eagle, Idaho and I like short story. I in high school I took running start college courses and I, that's when I got into philosophy. And at that time I like, you know, I was, I was raised Mormon.

Guest [01:17:34] It was the philosophy for me that was, that first got me questioning. So my, my dad had a bunch of books on polygamy and honestly I felt like I was pretty inoculated by him on the history stuff though it was still somewhat whitewashed.

Guest [01:17:59] But yeah, it was a, it was a gradual decline in my faith. I still went on a mission but felt really uneasy about it. And then a year afterward after I came back is basically when I stopped going.

Guest [01:18:15] So yeah, what I was going to say is this heavenly father and heavenly mother thing. My, my mother passed away when I was 6 to leukemia. So it was, it was always talked about that like maybe mom's like, training to become a God. Maybe she is like, maybe they're taking lessons to become a God.

John Dehlin [01:18:50] Like, already, you know, they're.

Guest [01:18:52] They're getting a head start after they leave their mortal body. And another thing is

Guest 5 [01:19:04] the.

Guest [01:19:04] I also remember the. The PBS program the Mormons that came out in about 2007. I remember there being the quote. I think Terrell Gibbons quoted Nietzsche when he said I could never believe in a God who didn't dance. So the idea that God was passionate, that maybe he danced or I, I play jazz piano. So the idea that, oh, maybe God is a way awesome. He's a. He's a jazz virtuoso.

Guest [01:19:43] Those were all, like, super intriguing ideas to me. And I also think there are, like, there's certain pipelines for ex members or members that want a more nuanced faith. There's, there's like the. The Mormonism to Taoism pipeline with.

Guest [01:20:09] When you get. When you get into Taoism, there's the yin yang stuff, the masculine and feminine energies, and there's also the. The Mormonism to Kabbalah route, which I think Kolby was kind of like. When, when there's talk of the Jewish rituals that included a feminine side of God, I feel like that's also very close to it. So the. I feel like the. The unfortunate thing is that we have the. The difficult history of polygamy, which might lend us to think that there's. There's more than one wife and it's unequal that way.

Guest [01:20:58] I still feel like there's a lot of power in their. In the belief of a heavenly father and heavenly mother. And I feel like it's something that people can relate to outside of the faith as well.

Kolby Reddish [01:21:17] So it sounds like if. It sounds like if I'm hearing you, Andrew, that you really connected with the literality of Mormonism's God, that you liked that idea of a God that dances or. I know Terrell Givens also talks a lot about Moses 7, the God who weeps. I know that's a big thing he talks about a lot, so that's interesting. Thank you for sharing that perspective. Yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [01:21:40] Thanks, Andrew.

Guest [01:21:41] Yeah, definitely.

John Dehlin [01:21:43] Yeah. It's great to have you on joining us today. You're kind of close to Kolby and Cam, so y'.

John Dehlin [01:21:48] All.

Guest [01:21:48] I know we maybe meet up sometime? Coffee or something?

Guest [01:21:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:21:52] Yeah.

Kolby Reddish [01:21:52] Great.

John Dehlin [01:21:53] All right, Andrew, thanks for joining us today on more on Mormon Stories Live. Good to see you.

Guest [01:21:58] Thank you. Appreciate it.

John Dehlin [01:21:59] All right. All right.

Guest 4 [01:22:01] Question. Yeah, KB I was just thinking, you know, in terms of this idea that God has passion and emotion. I, I love when people reference sad heaven, you know, this idea that there may be family members who don't make it to heaven. I, I wonder, you know, where does Satan. Maybe I'm throwing out an idea, but where does Satan do you think fit in in terms of like, is there a sadness that God has for the, the plight of Satan for the fall? How again, within this literal conception does that fit in in terms of that kind of relationship? Or is it more in that context, a spiritual presence? And this is a question for any and all,

Cam Reddish [01:22:54] I think.

Guest 6 [01:22:55] I.

Cam Reddish [01:22:56] So actually Kolby and I talked about this a lot when we were teaching at the mtc, because it's interesting to try and fit Satan into the picture, knowing that Satan is just where we put all of the, the bad. Right, the bad things that happen. Well, it's because Satan and he didn't listen and he's trying to take us away from God and, but to, to rewind a little bit and ask yourself questions about how God feels about Satan. I mean, in, in Mormonism, it's God's son, Jesus's brother. We, he, he was one of us and now he's everything bad, everything against God because he wanted glory for himself and not for God.

Cam Reddish [01:23:41] And, and so it's really tricky. I, I actually taught my missionaries that of course God has love for Satan, but it was more in the sense of he's really sad that, that Satan didn't do the right thing, if that makes sense. So it was still fully inside of the story because again, I really didn't, I didn't, I lacked a skill and I don't know. And I think that was a difference of me and Kolby leaving the church. He saw things a little bit broader than I did. And I think part of that is because I was born in 88 and, and so I was raised in the 90s mostly and early 2000s, and so like the smartphones weren't around until I was having kids.

Cam Reddish [01:24:28] Like we would, we got married and had kids and did the whole Mormon thing. And, and so I wasn't, I can't even imagine being One of those 20 somethings that called in, that saw the temple on a video, just online or on like Instagram or something, and had to kind of process that. For me, it was just, you know, this is where we go, we go to the temple and it is sacred and it is good and it is the right way to worship God. And so I had no other way to place that. I couldn't put it in any other context, but this is what we do to follow God.

Cam Reddish [01:25:03] And so, yeah, see, thinking about Satan that way, I would have said that God does, He loves Satan and he's just so sad. But he saw that Satan didn't do what he was supposed to do because love it.

John Dehlin [01:25:17] Love it. Cam Kolby, how would you answer KB

Kolby Reddish [01:25:20] Yeah, so I'm gonna go back to the temple video because it, it is supposed to contain like the deepest truth of Mormonism. There's a scene, so you might be surprised to learn if you've never heard before. I guess you said you've read the transcripts, that Satan features very heavily in the endowment video. And one of the things he says that I think kind of answers your question is he says, I'm just at one point when he's exiled, he says, I'm just doing that which is done in other worlds.

John Dehlin [01:25:46] So, like, done in other worlds.

Kolby Reddish [01:25:49] Right. So this idea that like God, God's nature stretches back into eternity, like he's just one in a chain of gods, you have the same idea, I would say with Satan that basically, like Satan fell and that God needed some opposition in his plan. That's taught very clearly in the Book of Mormon. It's also taught in the Doctrine and Covenants. So we needed someone to tempt us, to give us agency. That's what the Doctrine and Covenant says. But that it didn't have to be Satan. It was Satan's choice to fall.

Kolby Reddish [01:26:18] But I'll also say with that, there are also people who have mixed theories on that, where they say, actually, maybe Satan has some special assignment from God that we don't yet know that he needs to fulfill to fulfill God's plan. Because that temptation element is a necessary part of God's plan. All to go back to what I said is the weird thing about Mormonism. And again, maybe, maybe this is with every religion, but it seems like Mormonism in particular because of how much we've had leaders just say completely contradictory things. You can believe either thing. You can believe that Satan chose to fall. You can believe that Satan was commanded by God to do what he's doing. If you really want to find those breadcrumbs, you can find them in a myriad of different places.

John Dehlin [01:27:04] The only thing I'll add, KB is that we're taught Satan is not eternal

John Dehlin [01:27:08] in the sense of, you know, he was Satan in previous mortal existences.

Guest 5 [01:27:14] Right.

John Dehlin [01:27:15] Satan is one of God's children, like

John Dehlin [01:27:17] us, who in the pre existence decided to go off plan and took a third of Heavenly Father's spirit children with him, but he's a sibling. Satan is not only Jesus's sibling, which for some reason really angers Chris, you know, sort of evangelical Christians, just the teaching that Satan is Jesus's brother. But the truth is we're all considered spirit children of heavenly father and mothers. Jesus, Lucifer and the rest of us, we're all siblings and children of heavenly father and mother.

Guest 4 [01:27:56] I mean, that narrative makes, especially if God has assigned Satan with the task of being the antithesis of good. That's a very Christ like sacrifice, I would say, to give your life to be the symbol of evil. I mean, that seems even more torturous than perhaps even death on the cross. It's very interesting.

John Dehlin [01:28:17] I would say that's not even a fringe Mormon teaching. That would be super fringe. Most Mormons believe Satan was super bad and is the most evil spirit that's ever lived.

John Dehlin [01:28:31] Rivaling me. Rivaling me.

John Dehlin [01:28:33] But like it's like Satan and then me, like.

Guest 2 [01:28:36] Right.

John Dehlin [01:28:36] Like, I like that. Basically.

Guest 4 [01:28:40] I just, I just agree.

Guest 3 [01:28:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:28:44] Manny Alger says, raising a glass of Diet Coke to the first of many of callers on this new platform. Thanks for your support, Manny. Maya also threw us a super chat. Maya Miller, thank you for that as well.

Rapid-Fire Caller Questions on Mormon God

John Dehlin [01:28:56] All right, we've got a lot of callers on the line, so let's try and bring them in. Let's ask our callers to make quicker

John Dehlin [01:29:05] comments, if that's okay.

John Dehlin [01:29:08] Let's go ahead and go to Carissa. Hey, Carissa, you need to unmute yourself.

Guest 6 [01:29:12] Oh, yeah. Hi.

John Dehlin [01:29:14] What's your, what's your question or comment? Thanks for joining us.

Kolby Reddish [01:29:17] Hi.

Guest 6 [01:29:18] I've just watched for a long time, so whenever I'm cleaning the house, I turn this on and then I was like, oh, you're doing like a live thing. And then looked at it so I could join.

John Dehlin [01:29:25] So where are you joining us from?

Guest 6 [01:29:28] I'm in la.

John Dehlin [01:29:29] Oh, cool. I was just there yesterday.

Guest 10 [01:29:31] Oh, really? Yeah.

Guest 6 [01:29:32] Long, long time fan of the show. I left the church quite a while ago, though. So sometimes when I open these up and get, I get reminded of all the lessons because I try to forget.

John Dehlin [01:29:43] What do you do in LA if you. Or if you're able to share?

Guest 6 [01:29:46] I used to work at Disneyland, but I had a kid, so. So I don't really do that anymore.

John Dehlin [01:29:51] Okay.

Guest 6 [01:29:51] So now I do a lot of

Cam Reddish [01:29:55] music festivals and like braid hair for

Guest 6 [01:29:57] music festivals and stuff.

John Dehlin [01:29:58] Oh, fun.

Guest 6 [01:29:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:00] All right, well, what's your question or

Guest 6 [01:30:01] comment basically just on the Mormon God. We can kind of go back to what you guys were talking about. You guys are talking about the Satan thing. I was always taught that he just left. And so since that was his choice, he just goes right or earlier. You were also talking about the.

Guest 6 [01:30:20] The. The levels of heaven. And I kind of always had it in my head that I probably wasn't gonna make it to the celestial kingdom. So I was kind of like, ah, I don't know if I'll see God. And I always kind of had questions. Like, my whole kind of Mormon career, a lot of things didn't make sense to me. So when it comes to the idea of a Mormon God, it always was just some, like, ethereal person that, like, maybe if I.

Guest 6 [01:30:49] I don't know, believe it hard enough, it'll actually come true sort of thing. And I was always deathly afraid of the Second Coming. That crap terrified me.

John Dehlin [01:30:57] Absolutely.

Guest 6 [01:30:58] I don't think that was more mine. I'm like. I'm like, if God comes tomorrow, I'm effed.

John Dehlin [01:31:05] Well, that's a fun perspective, Carissa.

John Dehlin [01:31:07] Isn't it weird that Satan had so much power? One of God's children, as a spirit, had so much power, he could convince

John Dehlin [01:31:17] a third of God's children to leave God's plan.

John Dehlin [01:31:25] A third? Like, talk about genocide. A third of God's children were spiritually annihilated for eternity because they were persuaded by one of God's children to follow

John Dehlin [01:31:40] him out of the plan.

Guest 6 [01:31:41] That thought, too, always terrified me. I thought that literally Satan could come and, like, pull my leg down. Like, I would have these weird thoughts at, like, 2am When I was in primary. Like, I had to get up to go to the bathroom late at night. I'm like, oh, I didn't do good today, man. Satan's gonna just pull me down with them.

Guest 3 [01:31:57] Like, I don't know.

Cam Reddish [01:31:59] I remember in seminary, we used to try and calculate based on how many people have lived, how many of those evil spirits were, like, running around on earth trying to take us. It really was this fear. And I have that same fear about the Second Coming, too. I. I went through phases of, like, anxiety, and probably it is what it is, ocd. But I would, like, pack a fire bag at night before I went to bed because I was like, I needed to be ready. Like, I was scared to pray.

Guest 6 [01:32:28] Like, if I had something extra exciting going on or my family, we're big Disney fans, so we go to Disneyland all the time. I remember prank. Don't let the Second coming be tomorrow, because I've got something to do.

John Dehlin [01:32:39] All right, Carissa. Well, it's great to have you on the show. Thank you so much for calling in. All right, thanks for joining us.

John Dehlin [01:32:46] It's great to have you.

Guest 6 [01:32:47] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:32:48] All right, see ya.

John Dehlin [01:32:50] All right. We've got so many people, so we're going to go through these a little more quickly. Kendall C, you had to bail and then you came back, right? Kendall?

Guest 8 [01:32:58] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:32:59] Hey, Kendall, thanks for joining us. Where are you calling from?

Guest 8 [01:33:02] Herriman, Utah.

Kolby Reddish [01:33:04] Where?

Guest 8 [01:33:05] Harriman in Utah.

John Dehlin [01:33:06] Oh, Harriman.

Guest 3 [01:33:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:33:07] That's west side. Yeah. Well, fun. Well, tell us what, what you wanted to share or ask.

Guest 8 [01:33:16] Yeah, I just wanted to follow up on what Kolby said where, like, when you get deep enough into it, like, you take any position and you can find evidence for both things. I, I was actually the research assistant to David Paulson for a number of years when I was at byu.

John Dehlin [01:33:34] He's a BYU philosophy professor, right?

Guest 8 [01:33:36] Yeah, but, but he's like my understanding, the number one researcher on the divine feminine. So he had a lot of research on that. But unfortunately, I didn't get into that part of the research. I, I was more on the God side, like arguments for God, church teachings on God. And so I just kind of have a list of things that I wrote down from that class of, of contradictions or things that are, are things that the LDS Church teaches that are mutually contradictory. So do you want to go through that list?

John Dehlin [01:34:09] Yeah, yeah, rifle it off.

Guest 8 [01:34:11] Okay. So let's see. Oh, or just things that go against, like, the milieu of Christianity. So in Alma 42, it suggests the Mormon God would cease to be God if he did certain things. I, I think that's unique to Mormonism.

Kolby Reddish [01:34:28] That was on my list of scriptures that kind of validate this view that God isn't all powerful in the typical Christian conventional sense. Kendall?

Guest 8 [01:34:36] Yeah, yeah, that's my next thing. So BH Roberts taught. This is really interesting, how specific he gets. God's omnipotent should be understood as power to bring about any state of affairs consistent with the nature of existence. So in other words, God is not all powerful. In Mormonisms, God is subject to the laws of the universe and he can never violate those laws. And that's. That's been taught explicitly. I thought that was interesting.

Guest 8 [01:35:07] This, this one confused me even when I was a believer. We have scriptures that say, you know, my word shall not pass away, whether it be my by my voice or the voice of my servants. It is the same. And, you know, there it's eternal, it'll always be. But then in doctrine and Covenants 56:4, it says, wherefore I the Lord command and revoke as seemeth me good. So it's both and it's eternal and will never change. And he can take away any teaching at any time. It's both.

Guest 8 [01:35:39] I think Kolby already went over this. God didn't create us in Mormon ex nihilo from nothing. God did not create us. He organized us from pre existing matter. I think that is foundational. And going back to your comment earlier when you asked people, you know, do you. Do you think you'll get a planet and create worlds? My position is absolutely the mo. Most of the members will say yes. That's what one thing I love about the church and, and this is similar, the King Follett discourse about the nature of God. A lot of people that I talk to are like, this is why the LDS Church's philosophical position is so robust versus Christianity is we can take off of God's shoulders all the blame for the bad things people do because God didn't create us, he just organized us.

Guest 8 [01:36:34] Our natures were eternal, so we're responsible if we do bad things type of teaching. So I think that is incredibly salient to this topic. And then I have some quotes where it says that, you know, matter always existed and we're co eternal with God.

Kolby Reddish [01:36:52] Let's see, Kendall, was your understanding that that part of us that was co eternal with God, that was what I think the book of Abraham calls intelligences, Right?

Guest 8 [01:37:03] Correct.

Kolby Reddish [01:37:03] Okay, yeah.

Guest 8 [01:37:05] Intelligence always existed and is as eternal and as old as God. So we, at least the intelligence part of us always existed just. Just like God. Even though I never fully wrapped my head around, well, God was once a man. So like he. He is only always existent in the same respect as we were all intelligences because he was an intelligence. So I never figured that one out.

John Dehlin [01:37:32] Well, Kendall, we've got a bunch of people on the line, so I, I probably need to jump out. You need to apply to be on Mormon Stories. I think we'd love to hear your story.

Guest 8 [01:37:40] Oh yeah. I've got a few things that I think you'd find really interesting with my work at BYU and being a seminary institute. Another time then.

John Dehlin [01:37:50] Well, well, Kendall, thanks for joining us. Thanks for bringing that list. You know how to apply, right? You go to MormonStories.org, click on the application button and fill out the application and.

Guest 8 [01:38:00] Yeah,

John Dehlin [01:38:02] so.

Guest 8 [01:38:02] So I should be number one in the queue. I was literally right on the the money. Well, what was that when you first posted that application?

Guest [01:38:10] Link.

Guest 8 [01:38:10] I. I applied, so you should already have my application.

John Dehlin [01:38:13] Did you send a video? Did you record a three minute video?

Guest 8 [01:38:16] No.

John Dehlin [01:38:17] Okay.

Kolby Reddish [01:38:18] A lot of people don't think I

Guest 8 [01:38:20] sent a link to my video on Mormon ish.

John Dehlin [01:38:23] So a lot of people don't. Don't fully follow the instructions. We want to hear why this is just for everyone. We want to hear why you think you would be a good fit, particularly for Mormon stories. So when people send us just generic videos that they put out there that

John Dehlin [01:38:40] aren't tailored to the Mormon stories audience, we don't consider them.

John Dehlin [01:38:46] So, Kendall, reapply and follow the gosh darn instructions.

Guest 8 [01:38:50] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:38:53] Just like.

Kolby Reddish [01:38:54] More just like Mormon God, John De Lin expects you to follow all the

Guest 8 [01:38:57] conditions exactly or makes them so vague that, you know, we can't follow them unless, you know, he makes an arbitrary decision. I think that's the type of God that the Mormons really believe in.

John Dehlin [01:39:08] Kendall, you're excommunicated.

John Dehlin [01:39:12] Thanks for joining us, Kendall.

Guest 5 [01:39:13] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:39:16] All right, come again. All right, well, the next participant we have waiting for us very patiently is the Colch. What's up, Colch?

Guest 11 [01:39:28] Not much. Hey, John, I could. I'm just gonna tell you, I can vouch for Kendall. I've had him on my show a couple times.

Cam Reddish [01:39:33] He's.

John Dehlin [01:39:33] He's a good guy, cold, shy. This is your first appearance on Mormon Stories?

Guest 11 [01:39:39] Yeah, this is my first time on. I figured I might as well, you know, you put the link out there, I might as well hop on.

John Dehlin [01:39:44] Why did you do this show and you're like, doing every show but mine?

Guest 11 [01:39:49] Well, we talked about. I'm way over in Florida, so logistics wise, it's very hard to get in studio with you.

Kolby Reddish [01:39:56] There's a frenemy of yours, coach, that will be very jealous here on this platform.

Guest 11 [01:40:01] I know who you're talking about, Kolby. I'm surprised that person didn't call in. This would be his chance to also get on Mormon stories.

Kolby Reddish [01:40:07] But no.

John Dehlin [01:40:08] Well, no.

John Dehlin [01:40:12] What do you think about Mormon God? Any thought or question or perspective you want to share?

Guest 11 [01:40:17] You know, when I was in, I loved Mormon God. My favorite thing was the idea that we could become gods. Like I loved when you guys were talking about that. That to me, to this day is still one of the. Probably the most attractive things about Mormonism, which is why it's so bizarre to me that they are distancing themselves from it. Like they're. They're still holding on to it. It's there, but you have to wrap it in this certain type of language. Like, if you say, you guys get a planet, they'll say, no. But if you say, like, you can become like God and God made worlds so you could make worlds too. And then they'd be like, okay, yeah, we're, we're on board with that. So it's, it's really interesting just how they've moved away from it and you have to speak a very specific language to get them to cop to it.

John Dehlin [01:41:01] I'll never forget. I, I think it was probably my very first Sunstone. So we're talking 2004. They were responding to, for some reason. Michael Quinn gave a speech at Sunstone, and he was, for some reason responding to, I think, how Mormons are portrayed in the media or what definitive statements church leaders had made in the media. And he specifically referenced Gordon B. Hinckley's denial of our teaching that Mormons can become gods effectively. And he described it as selling our birthright for a mess of pottage or pork.

Kolby Reddish [01:41:45] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:41:47] Basically saying that's our most precious T shirt and doctrine. And for, like, concern about popularity or,

John Dehlin [01:41:56] you know, rivalry and other Christian sects, we're basically going to downplay or abandon our most precious teachings.

Guest 11 [01:42:03] Yeah, it was really weird to see him sidestep that because I was, I remember when he did that interview, I was a teenager at the time, like 16 or 17, and I remember even listening to that and being like, huh, we do believe that. And then I believe when the next conference he got up there and said something to the point of, like, you know, like, we, you know, we know. Right. We know about the planet thing. Right.

John Dehlin [01:42:25] Don't worry, don't worry, I understand the gospel. You, you know, is it something like,

Kolby Reddish [01:42:29] I understand the doctrine? I think is what he said. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:42:33] So to the world, he wants to downplay it.

John Dehlin [01:42:36] And then to the members, he wants to say, don't worry, I understand the doctrine.

Guest 11 [01:42:39] And yeah, but that's very common. That's, you know, the. Just in Mormonism, the leaders, depending on who the audience is, they're going to change their language. You know, they're going to talk to non members differently and they'll talk to members. But yeah, I think that to this day, I think that that doctrine, I don't even know if they'd call it a doctrine, but I think it's dope. I think it's one of the coolest things about Mormonism. And even the famous atheist Alex o', Connor, when he was talking to our person, we were discussing Kolby, he mentioned that that's one of the coolest things he thought about Mormonism was a chance to get a planet.

Guest 4 [01:43:12] So I think it's really interesting because I think about contemporary simulation theory, and if you're to, like, sort of follow that thread, then Mormonism kind of would be the closest mainstream religion that matches up. It's sort of like, oh, we didn't have the language for what this is, but there's actually this bridge that you can build that. Guys, am I going to convert to the church? No. But that is a really fascinating and valuable

Guest 3 [01:43:43] factor.

Guest 4 [01:43:43] I would say from a certain angle, it could. It could be applied and made to be a very, very strong argument for the church now.

Kolby Reddish [01:43:52] Yeah, 100%. Coach mentioned that interview with Alex O' Connor, and what Alex says in part of that clip is he's saying that to someone who shares this very materialist worldview, the theology of Mormonism makes a whole lot of sense. It's one of the most, I think, materialistic religions. Not, I mean, yes, also in a literal materialist way and gathering funds. But when you're someone who wants to work from, you know, methodological naturalism, it makes sense that God is more. It's more palatable to that mind and to that worldview, that God literally has a physical body, and that's why we have physical bodies. Otherwise you run into these problems of, like, why is anything the way that it is?

Deep Dive Into Mormon Materialist Theology

Kolby Reddish [01:44:34] If God could create it from scratch anyway, why is anything the way that it is? The difficulty then with Mormonism's materialism is then when you turn around and start looking at the truth claims, like Joseph Smith directly claiming to materially have translated documents, then it runs into these huge problems. So it's like Mormonism's theology, Mormonism's reality are completely separated from each other. I would say there

Cam Reddish [01:45:04] the language is all over the place. But I remember when you get backed into corners when speaking, like as a missionary, I guess when you go out and try and tell people about Mormonism and there's things that don't make sense because there always is something that doesn't make sense. A lot of the answers came because, well, our, Our. Our idea of God being all powerful and omnipotent is just a little bit different than everybody else's. And he has rules that he has to follow because of this kind of more naturalist like man, God that. That once was man and has to abide by the laws of the universe.

Cam Reddish [01:45:40] We kind of made that part make sense. And so cosmologically we have this, like, trump card because God isn't All powerful and omnipotent in the way that most people would think. To us, he is. That's how I would describe it. I would have told people, to us, he is all powerful and omnipotent, and. And we couldn't even imagine the power that he has. But he is bound by the laws of the universe because that's what our doctrine says.

Guest 9 [01:46:06] And so.

Guest 11 [01:46:07] And he's subject to some other God.

Cam Reddish [01:46:10] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:46:11] But we have this thing over other likely.

Cam Reddish [01:46:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:46:15] Because if he was on another Earth like we are, then he must have had a God over him.

Cam Reddish [01:46:24] Yeah, yeah.

Kolby Reddish [01:46:25] Well, that's. I mean, that's found directly in the Doctrine and Covenants. Like doctrine Covenants 130 talks about how people who go to the Celestial kingdom receive their own Urim and Thummim, their own white stone, which for kb, again, links back to Joseph Smith's history as a treasure digger. And it literally says, like, it. It's crazy to me that most Mormons don't know this, but the Doctrine and Covenant says that only people who go to the celestial kingdom get this Urim and Thummim. And it says in the scripture right there that by that stone, by that Urim and Thummim, they will receive things of all lower kingdoms and of higher kingdoms.

Kolby Reddish [01:46:59] And that's only for the people who go to the celestial kingdom. So my point is that there's already built into this model of Mormonism, right. In the Doctrine and Covenants, explicitly that there are things higher than what we think of as exaltation. To the point, John, of. Well, is he subject to a God? I think the answer was a kind of a clear yes. If you look at that and you look at the King Fallet discourse.

John Dehlin [01:47:23] Coach, take 10 seconds and tell everyone about your channel.

Guest 11 [01:47:26] Okay, so I've got a channel. It's just Coach. If you look it up on YouTube. I do a live Thursday night show, Kolby's actually, as soon as he gets off here, he's going to take a little break and he's going to come on with me. But I have cool guests on. And then I also do some of my own, you know, funny. I think I do parody songs. I try to do satirical things, parodying, like Ward Radio and some of the. The Mormon apologist. So I think my brand's humor. I do it okay, I guess. But yeah, check it out if you can.

John Dehlin [01:47:57] Those are he who Shall Not Be Named on this podcast.

Guest 11 [01:48:00] There you go.

John Dehlin [01:48:01] No, Colch.

John Dehlin [01:48:02] Colch, you do great work and it's great to have you on Mormon stories.

John Dehlin [01:48:05] Let's get you out here to Utah and have you tell your story.

Guest 11 [01:48:08] Hey, man, I'd love to do it.

John Dehlin [01:48:10] All right. Thanks, coach.

Guest 11 [01:48:11] All right, y' all have a good night.

John Dehlin [01:48:12] Coach, tonight at 8:30, Utah time. Good to see you, coach.

Guest 11 [01:48:17] You too, John.

Callers on Joining, Afterlife, and Celestial Roles

John Dehlin [01:48:18] All right, so I think we have a guest who says she joined because

John Dehlin [01:48:21] of the teaching

Guest 8 [01:48:25] that.

John Dehlin [01:48:25] That humans can become gods.

John Dehlin [01:48:27] Jen, unmute yourself. Did I get that right?

Guest 10 [01:48:32] I actually was. Well, kind of. Not. Not for that specific reason. But what I was relating to was how God is like one of us and he's so relatable. Debatable. And also when I was studying with the missionaries, I was 16, so I. I was actually looking into several different churches. And to me, what I was taught in the missionary lessons, it all made sense. It filled in those gaps, kind of like what Cami was saying earlier. It kind of filled in all those gaps and made perfect sense because it felt so literal but also so relatable that God was like one of us. And so he literally was like our father.

Guest 10 [01:49:14] And Satan was one of our brothers. But he's like the black sheep brother. He's the really bad one. You don't want to follow him because you'll end up doing drugs and you know what I mean, and all that kind of stuff. But that's why I joined, because it made sense and because God was relatable, being like one of us.

Guest 4 [01:49:32] I'm so curious. When you were conceiving of an afterlife as a God, you know, obviously God is a man. Men have the priesthood, women do not. So was there a distinction in your mind between this concept of maybe an eternal woman and an eternal wife versus an immortal God? Or was there just sort of like flexibility in that language and you. You could conceive of being a God in the celestial kingdom?

Cam Reddish [01:50:10] I, for you Want to go first?

Guest 10 [01:50:12] No, go ahead. Go ahead.

Cam Reddish [01:50:13] I, for me, it. It was another thing I just didn't. I didn't ask myself the right questions about. I definitely had questions and I had feelings about it, and they were big. And I wondered about polygamy. I wondered about my role. I wondered. The men's roles seem so much more defined than the women's roles. We are this side role, this appendage or whatever you want to, like this. How the scriptures call it. Like, we're the help meet where the. We do what we're supposed to do. And so it was very elusive again, to understand what it was going to look like. But you're kind of built up to find power in believing anyway.

Cam Reddish [01:50:55] Like, kind of it felt good to be able to say, but I believe that it's going to be good. And whenever you'd have a question about it, the priesthood leaders that would come to help you understand, the only thing that we could really tell you is, you know what? I don't know what's going to happen with polygamy. We don't have that light and truth yet from God, but it's going to be good. And because it's God, because it's heaven, because of what we've told you so far, we know you're going to be really happy. And so I kind of just held on to that. And it sounds really silly to think about now because I don't think I would have never thought about it that way or had that perspective on it. But that did pacify me in all those big emotions that I had.

John Dehlin [01:51:39] Can I came and Jen, can I ask you all two questions real quick? So first question, aren't women and kb you may find this interesting. Aren't weren't you when you went through and took out your endowments, weren't you promised to become effectively goddesses in the hereafter when you went through the temple ceremony? Jen, you're, you're nodding your head. Was that your understanding that you were ordained to become a goddess in the temple?

Guest 10 [01:52:09] Yeah, like Bonnie and Clyde. I was going to be the goddess at my husband's side. And for me, obvious. I didn't have my feminist awakening until like a couple years ago when I decided not to go to church anymore.

Guest 10 [01:52:25] But yeah, I was perfectly fine being my husband's helpmate because it actually took the me some of the mental load off of me as a woman. We have so many responsibilities. Obviously there's a lot of pressure to, to be a mother and to be not just be a mother, but be like a perfect mom. Be like a Pinterest mom where every birthday party is perfectly put together and decorated and your home is beautiful and clean and pristine like a temple. Right.

Guest 10 [01:52:58] And so I was in it to win it for over 20 years. And I was happy to be just my husband's help me because it made things in that part easier. Or so I thought at the time.

John Dehlin [01:53:13] So Rebecca Loveless, our friend, says it was queens and priestesses. Did that translate to goddess in your mind? Cammie?

Cam Reddish [01:53:24] Yes, I think. I don't think I would. Would have put together really the big idea that I was. I mean, I was glad that I made it right. I'm glad That I had a husband and got married in the temple because in Mormonism, we can't get there without that. And. And I know the men also can't. We have to be this joint couple. There has to be this union that takes place. We have to be sealed in the temple to get into the celestial kingdom. And. And I. That's so funny that you say that it took pressure off, Jen, because I've said this so many times.

Cam Reddish [01:53:56] I really felt we're so busy as Mormon women doing all of the things, and they really do keep us busy. And there are things that we are stressed about that nobody needs to be stressed about, but we are. And we want to just raise our kids the right way and teach them the gospel the right way and do all of the things, and we're really the ones that make us do family prayer and scripture read. But to know that he was the ultimate decision maker did feel like, okay, well, if, like, I trust him to know. I wasn't ever taught how to trust myself, though.

Cam Reddish [01:54:28] And I wasn't ever taught how to ask myself how, like what. What I wanted or how to make decisions on my own. It was kind of. It fit very properly in my mind that I would refer or like, defer to him, the big decisions, because I wouldn't. I don't have the priesthood. I wouldn't know how to make those big decisions.

John Dehlin [01:54:50] Yeah, we should do a whole episode on that of just Mormon women. Guilt and shame.

Guest 4 [01:54:56] I mean, I just want to commend you for doubly deprogramming. I mean, as. As much as you're saying, oh, it wouldn't have occurred to me. That was like, a silly idea. Now it's just like an overwhelming admiration for then that additional layer of deprogramming that you had to go through. Like, it's incredibly. It just speaks to, like, an incredible intelligence. So I hope that you feel that.

Cam Reddish [01:55:25] Yeah, kind of. I see you and I. Ever since the beginning, you just look so comfortable in your skin. Like, you just look so comfortable as a person. And I'm finding that slowly.

Guest 4 [01:55:36] Yeah, talk about it anytime.

John Dehlin [01:55:39] Jen and Cammie. The second question was, were you taught

John Dehlin [01:55:42] that you would literally be burying billions of children out of your celestial uterus, or did you not think about that?

John Dehlin [01:55:52] Are children born out of uteruses?

John Dehlin [01:55:53] I don't even know.

John Dehlin [01:55:55] Jen, you.

Guest [01:55:55] You.

John Dehlin [01:55:56] You speak first and then Cam.

John Dehlin [01:55:58] Did you believe that you would physically

John Dehlin [01:56:01] bear billions of children with your body in as a goddess, or did you even think about that?

Guest 10 [01:56:07] So it's not. It's not something that I thought about very often. Just like it's just like the eternal polygamy principle is not something that myself or if I talk to my girlfriends in the church, would think about very often. It's kind of like one of those shelf items, but then it's something that you would cling on to if you had infertility. Like, my husband and I had some infertility in the beginning of our marriage. It took like two and a half years to get pregnant with our first. So for things like that, I would cling on to. Well, if this doesn't work out, even though it says it in my patriarchal blessing that I'll be a mother, you know, that's.

Guest 10 [01:56:46] I'll be able to have eternal children. And so you kind of grasp onto the concepts that work for you, for you to feel good in the place that you're at. Does that make sense? So it's not something that I lingered on or thought about often or I thought as a burden. I thought it a great blessing. Right. Because this is what I'm told, that it's a blessing that it's. We're actually extra special as women, you know, women, because we get the blessing of being mothers. And that. That's like a higher calling, you know, in a lot of ways.

Guest 4 [01:57:17] So do you have the pain of Eve's sin that get. Makes childbirth painful in the celestial kingdom or what?

John Dehlin [01:57:25] Or just all the joy.

Guest 5 [01:57:26] Just.

Guest 10 [01:57:28] Just the joy, obviously, because.

Guest 4 [01:57:30] Just the joy. Okay.

Cam Reddish [01:57:31] It's perfect.

Guest 10 [01:57:32] Because the celestial kingdom is perfect. We also were taught that our bodies would be perfect. Perfect in the celestial kingdom. And so my husband has Crohn's disease, and he believes his. His growth was stunted in his teenage years because of it. So he would always joke around and say, yeah, when we're in the celestial kingdom, I'm going to be 6 foot and we're going to have dragons, you know, in our celestial kingdom. So everything was going to be perfect. There would be no pain and our bodies would be perfect.

John Dehlin [01:58:01] Well, Jen, it's lovely to have you on the show.

John Dehlin [01:58:03] Will you please apply to be on the podcast? I think you'd be. We'd love to hear your story. Where are you calling from?

Guest 10 [01:58:08] I'm in the Phoenix area in Peoria, Arizona.

John Dehlin [01:58:12] Okay.

Guest 10 [01:58:12] We served our mission while lives in Salt Lake.

Guest 6 [01:58:15] Oh, you did.

Guest 10 [01:58:16] You served your mission out here?

Kolby Reddish [01:58:17] Well, we served our missions both. We were in the Tempe mission at the time, and we came home at the same time and became friends.

Guest 2 [01:58:24] So.

Guest 10 [01:58:24] Nice. I'm originally from California, though, so both me and my husband.

John Dehlin [01:58:29] All right, Jen.

John Dehlin [01:58:29] So plan to come on the show.

John Dehlin [01:58:31] Come visit your sister, come be on Mormon Stories. What do you say?

Guest 10 [01:58:34] Yeah, will do. Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:58:36] All right, thanks so much for joining us, Jen.

Guest 10 [01:58:38] Good night.

Final Round of Callers on Mormon God and Leaving

John Dehlin [01:58:39] All right, well, we've got so many people that have been waiting very patiently, so let's try and do a rifle

John Dehlin [01:58:45] round and get to them all.

John Dehlin [01:58:46] Hey, Harrison, you've been very patient. Thanks for joining us on Mormon Stories Live.

John Dehlin [01:58:51] You need to unmute yourself before you talk,

John Dehlin [01:58:57] and for some reason, your microphone's not working. So, Harrison, try and get it working.

John Dehlin [01:59:02] You are unmuted, but we're not hearing you, so I'm gonna have you work

John Dehlin [01:59:06] on that for a second. We'll go to Melanie, if she doesn't mind. I see Melanie's eating.

John Dehlin [01:59:11] You have to unmute yourself as well.

John Dehlin [01:59:13] Hey, Melanie.

Guest 2 [01:59:14] I'm done.

Guest 7 [01:59:15] Hi.

John Dehlin [01:59:15] Where are you joining us from, Melanie?

Guest 7 [01:59:17] I'm currently in Colorado Springs.

John Dehlin [01:59:20] Okay.

Guest 7 [01:59:21] Yeah. So I was born and raised in the church in Southern California. I'm 48 now. So in the 80s and 90s, I have not been. I left the church for good eight years ago, but have been really only in the church. And in my adult years when I needed help, coming from a wealthy family, my family, my parentals wouldn't help me unless I went to the church. And then the church kind of gone on them and said, you know, we'll help her, but it's your job first. So. So growing up in the church in the 80s, I'm a little bit of the black sheep in the family, in my family, as I'm much more emotional.

Guest 7 [02:00:13] And I, growing up in the 80s, had a really hard time with not having a connection with Heavenly Mother. And I think a big part of that was due to my mom died of cancer when I was 10.

Guest 7 [02:00:32] And I was sexually abused as a young girl by a neighbor man from the age of 3 to 13. And my parents knew. Unfortunately, they didn't protect me or anything, and the church knew, and it was just pretty much not talked about and swept under the rug.

Guest 7 [02:00:57] When my mom died, though, the hardest part that I experienced in the church was I was told that anytime I ever did anything wrong, that I would not be with my mom in the celestial kingdom. And because my mom was a very strong member and believer, like, she had almost a thousand people at her funeral at the Stake center, and she got up and led the, you know, the war choir on oxygen a few months before she died. And it was a really big deal. So that was extremely difficult for me. And then when in my teen years I'm had some other drama and issues and moved to Santa Barbara to live with my aunt and uncle.

Guest 7 [02:01:45] And during that time, John, you'll remember the work in the Glory series came out and that was a very popular book series based on a non on a fictional family during the start of the Mormon Church. And so I got really into church history and during that time I did a lot of studying on my own of church history and I. I had a very difficult time with polygamy. I approached my aunt about it, who I lived with, and she tried her best to explain to me in a way that she thought I might find comfort. She brought my best friend up and said, you know, if.

Guest 7 [02:02:33] If Virginia was married and her husband died and she couldn't take care of herself and her family, you know, wouldn't you want your husband to take care of her? And I had a difficult time with the fact that, well, I don't want to share my partner, but I do want to take care of my friends.

Guest 7 [02:02:53] So I really went back and forth. But the biggest part for me in regards to I. I had my own very special unique relationship with Heavenly Father because he was much more of a real person to me than what I was taught and raised.

Guest 7 [02:03:11] And I know there is difference in some teachings depending on where you grew up in the US and around the world. So California's Mormon teachings might be a little bit different or interpreted differently than some Utah ones, but for me, I actually prayed more to Heavenly Mother than to Heavenly Father and I kept that on the DL like I wouldn't really tell anyone about that.

Guest 7 [02:03:41] So. But I. It was really difficult for me because I never felt like I was going to be worthy to make it to the celestial kingdom, especially after my mom died and getting my patriarchal blessing. As a teenager, one of the items in my blessing said that I was one of the chosen few that was called to stand as witness at the right hand of Jesus Christ at the Second Coming. And apparently that was very rare to hear in a blessing and a really big deal.

Guest 7 [02:04:22] So when my teachers and family found out, everybody kind of spread that news around and I had a lot of pressure and guilt, which made it even more difficult for me. Now I'm in such a great place with my own faith.

Guest 7 [02:04:41] I am a very spiritual person. I believe in my own higher power that I really like what you said, kb, about the simulation world and how bringing in the whole view of the divine, masculine and feminine balance, I'VE really worked hard in my face deconstruction and in incorporating the higher power that I grew up loving and knowing with what I now have studied and researched throughout the years and come to believe.

Guest 4 [02:05:25] So different.

Guest 7 [02:05:28] But, you know, in, in my, in my own way. So, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:05:32] Beautiful. Well, Melanie, we really appreciate you sharing that story in that perspective. You just did a mini Mormon story. I know the stories.

Guest 7 [02:05:41] I know. I have thought about getting on there. My friend. Your friend, Dave Basinger. He's my friend. We were teen, we were teens together.

John Dehlin [02:05:49] Oh, I love you.

Guest 7 [02:05:50] And yeah. So, you know, I, I, I, I've been encouraged to get on there. I have so much about my life in the church and how much it has affected me.

John Dehlin [02:06:02] Sure.

Guest 7 [02:06:03] And how I'm so, like, again, I'm so grateful and blessed that I've been able to work so hard through my faith deconstruction and be in such a good place now. So, yeah, I will apply, John, because I would love to get on there and share. I think, you know, I have a lot of things that people can relate to in a lot of different areas.

Guest 7 [02:06:24] But, yeah, Heavenly Mother was a big deal for me. And the fact. And, and I will just say real quickly, I was told that Heavenly Father wasn't a polygamist. Everybody below him was, but, oh, okay. It was just Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother, and she wasn't talked about or taught about because she was so special and sacred that he kept her to himself.

Guest 7 [02:06:50] And, and so for me, that was a big deal. Why I prayed to her too. So I think I just connected more to the divine feminine.

Cam Reddish [02:06:58] But, yeah, isn't it funny how.

John Dehlin [02:07:01] So much for sharing.

John Dehlin [02:07:03] Yeah, go ahead, Kimmy.

Cam Reddish [02:07:04] I was gonna say, isn't it funny how those, those things that she says, like, I connected more or someone told you that God wasn't a polygamist. Just, there's so many open ends in Mormonism, and it leaves room for people to create more of the story themselves.

Guest 7 [02:07:19] Absolutely, Absolutely.

Cam Reddish [02:07:21] We need stories as humans. We need to understand our world through stories. And so to see the mirror of Mormonism onto everybody's personal understanding is just fascinating. And I'm so sorry to hear about how that story was used against you multiple times as you were talking. It just, it comes right back at you to say, well, if you don't feel perfectly right about this, then you won't get what you're supposed to get. Yeah, you won't get your mom. You won't. You know, the thing you need most? White, that relationship that you were saying was missing. It's, it's so hard because we need stories. And then if the stories are too rigid or the stories aren't created by us and what we like, want them to be what we decide they are, then they could be used against us like that. And absolutely.

Guest 7 [02:08:07] I know as a mother, I mean, all of us, as parents, we understand there's nothing my child could do that I would not want, I would not love them or not want them in my life. And I had so much, such a. I mean, it just tore me apart for years. I mean, the emotional abuse and religious abuse connected to that greatly damaged me my whole life that, you know, I, I what, My mother wouldn't even want to be with me, let alone that Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother wouldn't want to be with me or allow me to be with my, my mother. And it is, there's, it's so heartbreaking to me how much emotional and religious abuse slips through and in the wording and in the teachings instilled in the church.

Guest 7 [02:09:06] And that's such a huge part of faith deconstruction from members of the Mormon Church. And it's just sad that it's not talked about. So I, I greatly appreciate you, John. And you're. I've been following Mormon stories for eight years now, and, and it is a big deal to have, finally have people who are able to validate, you know, that that was emotionally damaging. You're right. We validate that, you know, and, and we validate your experience and you're loved for who you are and your God, whoever that may be. Of course they're going to love you and want you and hold you in their arms. I used to pray as a little girl and I would start my cross prayers with, heavenly Father, please encircle me in your arms of love so I can feel your love and know that you love me and that I'm close to you, even though I'm not worthy or good enough.

Guest 7 [02:10:19] So it is a big deal. I appreciate you, John. I don't want to take up too much time, but I appreciate you doing stuff like that. You know, these great shows, but also allowing other people, people, even if they just call in for a quick little few minutes to just share and that so many people are able to support each other and validate each other because it's such an important part of our life in, in accepting and loving who we are in our current places in life. So thank you so much for.

John Dehlin [02:10:52] Thank you, Melanie. Thanks for joining us.

Kolby Reddish [02:10:54] Thanks for.

John Dehlin [02:10:55] Thanks for joining us. Great to have you.

Guest 7 [02:10:56] Yes, thank you.

Guest 6 [02:10:56] Take care.

John Dehlin [02:10:57] All right, thanks, Melanie. That was wonderful. Thanks so much.

John Dehlin [02:11:03] Quick, quick super chat.

John Dehlin [02:11:06] Dehende07 says I've been enjoying this live

John Dehlin [02:11:09] and hearing everyone's story.

John Dehlin [02:11:11] I'm a never Mormon, but a recovering Catholic that's still deconstructing my faith. Thank you so much for that super chat. We love our Never Mormons on Mormon Stories podcast.

John Dehlin [02:11:23] We would love to have some orthodox

John Dehlin [02:11:26] Mormon believers call in. We would love to have people disagree with us or share their orthodox Mormon beliefs as well. So please, if you're a believing Mormon, maybe not this time, because we're running out of time, but next time, we hope you'll join us. Guy McDude writes, The ladies love him, and he has a huge harem of constantly pregnant wives to populate his universe of planets. He's talking about Mormon Heavenly Father as written about in D&C. 132.

John Dehlin [02:11:54] All right, we've got four more guests that we're going to try and jump through. We're going to ask each guest to just take a minute to either make a comment or ask a question. We won't have time for you to

John Dehlin [02:12:07] also share your mini Mormon story.

John Dehlin [02:12:10] So, Harrison, let's give you one more shot. Try and talk. Harrison.

Guest 12 [02:12:16] Okay. Can you hear me?

John Dehlin [02:12:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:12:18] Yeah, Harrison.

John Dehlin [02:12:19] Welcome to Mormon Stories Live. Yep.

Guest 12 [02:12:23] Okay. Can you hear me? I can't see my video, so hopefully you guys can see me.

John Dehlin [02:12:27] We hear you. Tell us what you wanted to share about Mormon God.

Guest 12 [02:12:31] Yeah, yeah. So I, I just thought it was interesting. Like, I was. I was raised to. To believe things much like you guys were talking about, you know, that, that God is. Was once man. And I was talking to my family recently, and, and it just seems like the, the view of God. Mormon God is changing so much. And so I guess my, My question was like, why is it that since, you know, the Mormons have a prophet, a living prophet, why. Why can't he clarify everything, like, clear it up for everybody? Especially since it seems to be changing, you know, so much since the beginning.

Guest 12 [02:13:14] If the, if. If the prophet, you know, speaks to God and, and, and can have that knowledge, why would that ever evolve? You know, why would, why would the. The planet stuff change? Why would things kind of. Anyway, I'm, I, I don't want to get to take up too much time or, or be too confusing. I'm a little nervous because, you know, John is, is a celebrity in my mind, so I'm like, oh, my gosh. But anyway, I just, I'm a little nervous. So sorry. But yeah, that's kind of my main one. I speak to my family and I asked my mom, you know, she. I'm like, do you believe that you

Kolby Reddish [02:13:46] can be a God?

Guest 12 [02:13:46] You know, and she says, no, I never even. I never think of that. But then I asked my. My dad and. And I'm not so sure. I'm not so sure. He doesn't kind of think that, you know, and so maybe that is a gender thing. I'm not sure. But anyway, that was kind of my questions and nervously saying them. So sorry about that.

John Dehlin [02:14:06] No, that's great. Thank you, Harrison. And my quick answer would be that it's a feature, not a bug, that, number one, the Mormon church leaders let members really have whatever beliefs they want to have and allow a diversity of views because I think in theory, they want as big of a tent as they can have.

John Dehlin [02:14:27] They don't want, you know, to be

John Dehlin [02:14:29] excluding people based on their views of God. They also want to be able to change things if society requires a change. And so I think this idea of continuing revelation or of new, new light and knowledge, I think the church leaders love that flexibility so that they can change and so that they could have as big of a tent as possible.

John Dehlin [02:14:55] Of course, if you're teaching false doctrine,

John Dehlin [02:14:57] they're going to shut you down or ask you to be quiet. But I think, you know, my opinion is they want to have as big of an umbrella as possible, and they

John Dehlin [02:15:07] don't really care what you believe as

John Dehlin [02:15:10] long as you're not contradicting them publicly.

John Dehlin [02:15:13] Anybody else have a quick response to that?

Kolby Reddish [02:15:16] All I would say is I actually think, you know, provided the response to this episode is good, I actually think doing a full digestion of the role of prophets, kind of like how today we've talked about the role of God inside of Mormonism, would be an interesting way to kind of answer Harrison's question. Because it really has shifted over time, like everything in Mormonism, the role that prophets play. And so I think it's just part and parcel of the same thing. The church leaders, a lot, like John said, are highly reactionary. They react to, you know, social changes, cultural mores. And so I think that kind of explains why you see those shifts, Harrison. They're not related directly to some revelation. It's just. It's kind of expediency. They need to change because otherwise they'll become increasingly irrelevant.

John Dehlin [02:16:09] Yeah, absolutely.

Guest 12 [02:16:11] That's great.

John Dehlin [02:16:13] Where are you. Where are you calling us from, Harrison?

Guest 12 [02:16:17] Northern Idaho.

John Dehlin [02:16:19] Oh, fun. Okay.

Kolby Reddish [02:16:21] All the Idahoans for us, John.

John Dehlin [02:16:24] All right, Harrison. Well, thanks for joining us. It's great to have you. All right, you take care. Thanks for joining us today. Sorry, go ahead. Okay.

John Dehlin [02:16:39] Sorry, we have a little bit of technical difficulties there.

John Dehlin [02:16:42] We've got a few more guests, and

John Dehlin [02:16:43] then we're gonna have to end.

John Dehlin [02:16:45] Cameron, hello. Thanks for joining us on Mormon Stories Live. What's your comment or question about Mormon God?

Guest [02:16:51] Yeah, I'll try to make it quick. So I was really just gonna say I haven't watched this whole thing, so I don't know what other people have said, but really I'm 31, so I kind of grew up in the, like, late 90s, early 2000s, and I really wasn't taught, like, the whole, like, God is. It was an exalted man and that he's a God among gods and that just, you know, he lives on colab. Like, all these doctrinal things, like, they really didn't stick to their doctrine, at least in, in the youth programs that I grew up in and, like, seminary that I went through, like, it wasn't until I was, you know, probably 18, 19, when I really started, like, coming to the doctrine of the.

Guest [02:17:28] Of those things. And I actually left the church when I was 19 and converted to Christianity. And I, you know, identify myself as a Protestant. And that was the largest reason was just like, who is God? What's his nature? And just learning, like, the truth of Mormon God and really just falling away from that. So.

John Dehlin [02:17:47] So you, you.

John Dehlin [02:17:48] These things we're talking about now really

John Dehlin [02:17:50] weren't part of your orthodox Mormon experience. They're things you learned later, is that what you're saying?

Guest [02:17:55] Yeah, that's correct. Like, I mean, they, I knew that, like, God was. Had a physical body, but just, they would really never have, like, a dogma about it or be really confirming of, like, no, like, he's an exalted man. And, like, so, yeah, they just really never taught that. And so I never really had that idea growing up. I knew that, you know, I didn't have a trinitarian view. I still had a Godhead view that he was separate from Jesus and the Holy Spirit. But no, it wasn't until, like, my early, you know, like I said, 19, early 20s, where I really got a trinitarian view of God and then converted Christianity because of that.

John Dehlin [02:18:29] Where are you joining us from, Cameron?

Guest [02:18:31] St. Louis, Missouri.

Guest [02:18:32] Fun.

John Dehlin [02:18:33] We got some Missouri representation. All right.

Guest [02:18:37] Thank you for having me.

John Dehlin [02:18:38] Oh, it's great to have you. Thanks for sharing your perspective. Thanks for joining us on Mormon Stories Live.

Guest [02:18:42] Yeah, no problem.

Kolby Reddish [02:18:43] Thanks, Cameron.

John Dehlin [02:18:44] All right, take care, Cameron.

Guest [02:18:45] See you.

John Dehlin [02:18:46] All right, we've got someone calling themselves Apocrypha now. Welcome to Mormon Stories Live. What is your comment or question about Mormon God?

Guest 2 [02:18:57] I'm a never Mormon, so I was actually kind of confused by some of the things in the document about the Mormon God. My question is, if God was a man on Earth, where did God come from? How did God get that body? And then the other question is, if that man later became God, where did the Holy Spirit come from? And like, when did the Holy Spirit start? Was that there when God was a man? Or did that come into existence once God changed to God the Heavenly Father? I'm just confused about all of that.

Kolby Reddish [02:19:32] I first just have to observe how delightful I find the confusion of never Mormons trying to make sense of this stuff.

Cam Reddish [02:19:39] I think it, it is really, I don't know, impressive that Mormonism was able to have a story that was just a cycle. It's, it's just this cycle, so we don't have to have the answers to that. Because if God is just part of the cycle and then we're just the next round of like, we'd call it rounds of creation, right? So there's the next round of creation that we're going to be the gods over if we can make it to the celestial kingdom.

Cam Reddish [02:20:07] But when your entire story is wrapped up in this cycle, you don't, you don't ask yourself the questions about what comes before the before because we still have the God like everybody else. And because he was a man, he must have come from, you know, the same thing. If he once lived as a man, he had his own experience on an earth and then became a God. Just like we're going to become gods and we don't have to know anything else. I think is what we were.

Kolby Reddish [02:20:36] Yeah, yeah, I've heard it described before. Almost like, like the way Cammie said it, like the rounds of creation, you can almost think about those, like a celestial franchising opportunity.

Guest [02:20:46] Right?

Kolby Reddish [02:20:46] Like God is running his own franchise. And our, the offer that we have if we succeed being his fry cooks in this mortal existence is we can then run our own eternal franchise somewhere else. So I wouldn't say that Mormons, current Mormon God.

John Dehlin [02:21:07] Current Mormon God was a fry cook

John Dehlin [02:21:09] for some other God who previously had an existence.

John Dehlin [02:21:14] And current Mormon God was so righteous in his mortal existence under his God

John Dehlin [02:21:21] that he became an exalted God after his judgment and then was able to, with his wives, be the God of this existence for us, and then we'll take that to the next. If we're worthy, we'll become franchise owners in the next existence, have our children, and the righteous ones of them will then become gods of their existence forever and ever, alpha and omega, till. Till eternity upon eternity.

Cam Reddish [02:21:55] And we're so focused on it, right, that we don't. We don't think about before because we're in a test. Like, this is what, what, what living feels like as a Mormon is very high stress. Like we're. You're in a test. What, what does a test feel like? It feels scary and, and kind of awful and. And you're worried about getting things right all the time and hearing what the Holy Ghost is trying to tell you all the time. I don't think I had room to ask myself those questions. And since it was this cycle, that made kind of sense, like the story made sense in a way. I didn't think to even go back farther and ask who's. Who is God's God?

John Dehlin [02:22:34] The other part of your. Yeah, absolutely. The other part of your Christian apocrypha

John Dehlin [02:22:38] now is we don't know much about the Holy Ghost. There are theories that the Holy Ghost is Mother in Heaven, but, you know,

John Dehlin [02:22:46] there are theories that Holy Ghost is

John Dehlin [02:22:49] just another one of God's children that has intentionally accepted the role of Holy Ghost to inspire us all. But we'll get their body someday. There's lots of theories about the origin of the Holy Ghost, but nothing close

John Dehlin [02:23:07] to official and nothing that anyone could ever really pin to anything doctrinal, I would say. Would you disagree with that?

Guest [02:23:17] No.

Kolby Reddish [02:23:17] The other theological problem with the Holy Ghost is that the Holy Ghost is supposedly part of the Godhead, but doesn't have a body. That's like the entire function of him being the Holy Ghost. That's why he can, like, there's literally scripture that talks about that's why he can inhabit, you know, and influence us. Yet the whole reason that we have bodies supposedly is to become like God. So it's very. The Holy Ghost creates a lot of theological problems.

John Dehlin [02:23:44] Apocrypha. Now tell us really quickly why you follow Mormon stories. As an ever Mormon, KB wants to know.

Guest 2 [02:23:52] It's interesting. That's a quick answer for you. I know you're trying to get to other people.

John Dehlin [02:23:56] Do you have a religious background?

Guest 2 [02:23:59] Well, I'll give you one reason. I follow Mormon stories. One of my better friends from growing up in elementary school through high school, was a devout Mormon and he told me things about the Mormon Church and He went on a mission to Indiana and was, you know, married in the temple in Logan, Utah. And so I got more of an exposure to Mormonism than you might expect from my other Never Mormons. So it's just, you know, kind of interesting to me.

John Dehlin [02:24:27] Well, we're super glad you joined us today.

John Dehlin [02:24:29] Oh, go ahead. Was something.

Kolby Reddish [02:24:30] Oh, I just said thanks for calling in. It's so nice to hear from Nevermore Mormons.

Guest 2 [02:24:33] You're welcome.

Guest 4 [02:24:34] I'm still the neverest, though.

Guest 2 [02:24:38] I guess you beat me, kb. You're just superior to me.

Kolby Reddish [02:24:40] And you're never Mormonism.

Guest 4 [02:24:42] There less reason to be here.

John Dehlin [02:24:44] Tell us what state you're calling from. Apocrypha. Now.

Guest 2 [02:24:47] California.

John Dehlin [02:24:48] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:24:49] All right. Well, thanks for joining us. It's great to have you.

Guest 2 [02:24:52] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:24:53] Call again.

John Dehlin [02:24:54] Sure.

John Dehlin [02:24:55] All right. All right, Carly, welcome to Mormon Stories Live. Tell us where you're calling from.

Guest 5 [02:25:02] Hi. I live in Knoxville, Tennessee.

John Dehlin [02:25:05] Whoa. Would you believe that I'm flying to Knoxville, Tennessee on Monday with Margi?

Guest 6 [02:25:12] No way.

Guest 5 [02:25:12] Are you coming to see Nathan Hinckley?

John Dehlin [02:25:15] We're interviewing Nathan and his daughter and

John Dehlin [02:25:19] another couple in Knoxville. Yeah.

Guest 5 [02:25:21] That's awesome. Yeah, we live not too far apart, actually. We keep in contact on Facebook a little bit. So it's. It's very cool being close to another kind of Mormon podcaster. Now. I have my own little channel. I'm on YouTube and on TikTok as Carly searches and praise.

John Dehlin [02:25:39] Okay.

Guest 5 [02:25:40] I'm very shortly going to be kind of rebranding to just ex Mormon Bible study. That's kind of my thing now.

John Dehlin [02:25:47] Oh, fun. Well, that's great. I'd love to learn more about your stuff. You should apply to be on the show, but I definitely will really quickly tell us what question or comment you have about Mormon God.

Guest 5 [02:25:58] I have some notes. I took notes so I can be quick, but these are like, things that I was always thinking about growing up that seemed contradictory, but I'd always just push out of my mind while I was stuck in the church. But I always thought it was interesting how the church claims to be the restoration of the church that Jesus Christ. Christ set up when he was on Earth, but it seems to contradict the New Testament and it mostly relies on the Old Testament.

Guest 5 [02:26:27] So I. I just took some notes of some of the many things that it contradicts from the New Testament, even, like, especially Jesus's own words. So when he talked to the woman at the well, he told her that the time was coming and the time was now that nobody would have to worship at the temple. Or on the mountain to stand to be with God, but that true believers would worship in spirit and truth. So he right then said you're not going to need this temple.

Guest 5 [02:26:56] He also said God is spirit which is completely contradictory to the Godhead. In the New Testament Jesus had female deacons. We can read about.

Kolby Reddish [02:27:06] Carly, does it, Carly, does it make you feel better to know that Joseph Smith changed some of those things? Check name no, not at all.

Guest 5 [02:27:16] Actually for a while this I'll just side now a couple of years ago that might have made me feel better because I kind of my exit from the church was actually on the pneumo path. So it was like the polygamy denier path. So I kind of did cling on to Joseph Smith a little more in the beginning of my journey. So I would have liked that maybe a couple years ago.

Guest 5 [02:27:38] So another thing was, you know, Jesus said when you're in communication, say yes or no, don't swear at all. He tells us not to take oaths upon us. And that's actually contradictory to the Book of Mormon as well. And Helaman 6 it talks about like don't make any secret oaths and covenants and that's completely contradictory to all the temple rituals.

Guest 5 [02:28:02] And the most important thing that I've found in my ex Mormon Bible study is Ephesians 2:14,15 said that Jesus abolished the Old Covenant ordinances. So it said that he abolishes, he abolished the ordinances that they were all doing in the Jewish temple yet Joseph smith restored them 2000 years later or 1800 years later. So it just seemed contradictory to me growing up. But I just have to put it out of my mind like well it's got to make sense somehow that God, you know, Jesus didn't say anything about these things, he actually spoke against them and then restored them again through Joseph Smith.

John Dehlin [02:28:42] Yeah, well I'm curious Carly, are you?

John Dehlin [02:28:44] Do you consider yourself a believing Christian these days?

Guest 5 [02:28:47] Yeah. So we, we're non denominational, we don't hold on to anything any one person says. We're very much on our own spiritual paths in our own personal relationships with God. We've walked a very hard path but it's turning out beautifully.

John Dehlin [02:29:07] Well you know, Joseph Smith kind of

John Dehlin [02:29:09] neutralized this whole argument about what Jesus said by denouncing the Bible as being mistranslated and corrupted over the ages. So it's on the one hand very valid to say the Bible. The New Testament contradicts Mormonism. On the other hand, the church just waves that away and says well, the article of faith says we believe in the Bible as far as it is translated correctly or not believe to the extent that it's corrupted or incorrectly translated.

Guest 5 [02:29:38] And so, yeah, that's interesting too. I've read a lot on the Joseph Smith Papers Project. And you know, there is one journal entry somewhere around 1832 where Joseph is talking to another Christian preacher. And the preacher saying, well, do you believe in the Bible? And Joseph claims we're the only religion who believes in the Bible. Like he was that sure that what he was doing was the most biblical. And he didn't seem to have any trouble with the translations or anything like that.

John Dehlin [02:30:10] Well, Carly, it sounds like we need to have you on Mormon Stories. When are you gonna apply?

Guest 5 [02:30:13] I'll apply quickly.

Guest 6 [02:30:15] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:30:15] Go to mormonstories.org Click on the apply

John Dehlin [02:30:18] button, and don't forget to record your 3 minute video.

Guest 5 [02:30:20] Thank you. Can I say one more quick thing?

John Dehlin [02:30:23] Sure.

Guest 5 [02:30:23] I thought it was really interesting how the genesis of the restoration is James 1:5. If you lack wisdom, ask of God and he will give you liberally. And afraid not, he won't withhold answers. But when it comes to hard Mormon doctrine, that doesn't apply. You just have to put it on the shelf and you'll find out when we die.

John Dehlin [02:30:42] No, the church wants you receiving inspiration from God as long as it 100% corresponds with what they're saying today.

Guest 5 [02:30:51] Not even what they said, but I'll let you go.

John Dehlin [02:30:54] All right, Carly, thanks for joining us.

Guest 5 [02:30:56] Thank you.

Guest 4 [02:30:57] Good night.

Closing Thoughts and Farewell

John Dehlin [02:30:57] All right, well, we want to thank everyone for joining us today on Mormon Stories. This is our inaugural Mormon Stories Live. It's a pilot. We don't even know if we're going to have a second one of these. The attendance wasn't what I thought it would, Kolby. I was thinking it would grow to over a thousand. It's stuck around 400. Maybe people will like it in.

John Dehlin [02:31:19] In the sort of post production, post

John Dehlin [02:31:22] show kind of feed. I don't know that we should totally go by audience, but I had fun and it seems like there was a lot of people who enjoyed it who were here. Kb, you got your check, but one of your checks from your bucket list checkbox has been checked. You kind of were a panelist on a Mormon Stories episode.

Guest 4 [02:31:43] I know. I kept waiting for you to tell me I could hop off or. But it didn't happen. So I hope it was okay that I was here this whole time.

John Dehlin [02:31:52] Oh, I love that. And before your episodes release. So y' all have that to look forward to. In the next few weeks, we'll be

John Dehlin [02:32:00] releasing KB's epic Never Mormon Mormon story.

Guest 5 [02:32:07] Yeah.

Kolby Reddish [02:32:08] Anyway, thanks, KB. It was so nice to meet you.

Guest 4 [02:32:11] Thanks so much, guys.

John Dehlin [02:32:12] All right. Yeah. Thanks for joining us, kb.

John Dehlin [02:32:15] We look forward to that episode. Join us again.

John Dehlin [02:32:17] And Kolby and Cam, what do you guys think?

Kolby Reddish [02:32:20] It was great.

Guest 3 [02:32:21] It was great.

Cam Reddish [02:32:21] Yeah. I like hearing from people.

John Dehlin [02:32:23] It was so fun to have you both. And this is a great idea, Kolby.

Kolby Reddish [02:32:27] Yeah, thanks, John. Thanks for creating these conversations, creating this space. It was great to hear from people and hear their stories, and I'm really glad. I'm really glad we had some people participating. And hopefully we get a lot of people listening and listening to the. To other people's perspective, because I think. I think this was right in line with what we wanted to create. So I appreciate everyone who called in

John Dehlin [02:32:48] any final, final words on Mormon God.

Kolby Reddish [02:32:53] If people are confused about Mormon God after this episode, welcome to Mormonism. That's basically.

John Dehlin [02:33:00] No. How about they could just. They could just create God in their own image and create whatever Mormon God they want to create, because it seems

John Dehlin [02:33:07] like that's what a lot of Mormons are doing.

Cam Reddish [02:33:08] Yeah. God is a mirror in Mormonism, and you're given. You're giving these little breadcrumbs, but at the end, he's a mirror to whatever you need him to be. He fills a gap, a basic human need gap. And yeah, Mormonism does a very good job at allowing him to be whatever we need him to be in the moment and whatever the leaders need him to be in the moment also.

Kolby Reddish [02:33:32] As long as it's unfalsifiable. Yes.

John Dehlin [02:33:36] Well, Kimmy and Kolby, it was so great to have you guys today. Thanks for making this happen. Yeah, thanks, John.

John Dehlin [02:33:44] Reminder everyone that Kolch and the cultural hall with Kolby is going to be doing an episode just in the next 15 minutes or so. Make sure and check them out. Please subscribe really quick to the channel. Please like this episode.

John Dehlin [02:33:58] We want to thank our donors who

John Dehlin [02:33:59] donate monthly to Mormon stories. We couldn't do this without you, so thank you. If you're not a donor and you want to see this stuff continue, you can send us super chats here on

John Dehlin [02:34:09] YouTube, but the best way to support us is just to go to MormonStories.org, click on the Donate button. Become a monthly donor. That's how we make this happen.

John Dehlin [02:34:18] If you like this series and you want to see continue, give us your feedback, send us email. Let us know if you think this is kind of just gumming up the podcast feed and you'd rather just stick

John Dehlin [02:34:31] to long form or truth claims or

John Dehlin [02:34:33] LDs discussions or current events. We want to hear that too. But, but you know, let us know. Thanks for joining us. And yeah, make sure and check us out in the days, weeks and months ahead.

John Dehlin [02:34:49] We've got a lot of content in

John Dehlin [02:34:51] the pike, so we plan on we're not sure if we're going to be able to do this next week just because I'm traveling, but right now our plan is to do it on Thursdays. We plan on pre announcing the topic. You can, you know, if you want to follow when we're going to be doing our next episode, follow us on Instagram or on TikTok or on YouTube or on Facebook. I made announcements today letting people know about this episode on all those platforms. And in the future, we're going to try and release a schedule, a weekly schedule of what the topic's going to be and you know, what time and date the episode's going to play. But we're targeting Thursdays at either 6 or 7, but we'll be solidifying that. So try and just follow us on

John Dehlin [02:35:39] social media to know when our next

John Dehlin [02:35:42] episode is, if we do a next episode. All right, everyone, thanks for joining us. Thanks, Kolby and Cam, y' all are great.

Cam Reddish [02:35:48] Hi. Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:35:49] Be good to each other, be kind to each other, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of

John Dehlin [02:35:54] Mormon Stories Podcast or Mormon Stories Live.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.