Welcome and Guest Introductions

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's February 5, 2021 and we have a super cool Mormon Stories episode for you right now. I am sure these two guests are not strangers to most of you, if any of you. Today we have back on Mormon Stories to incredible humans.

John Dehlin [00:00:30] Many of you will remember Tyler Glenn on Mormon Stories, but even if you haven't seen Tyler Glenn on Mormon Stories, you will know him from his work outside of Mormon Stories. Tyler Glenn is the lead singer of the amazing group Neon Trees.

John Dehlin [00:00:47] He is also, you know, a couple years ago put out a really important and incredible album called Excommunication, which we had Tyler Glenn on Mormon Stories podcast during the time of his making of the album Excommunication. And that was a really important sort of top 10 top 20 episodes of all time for Mormon Stories podcast. And that album remains one of my slash, our favorite albums as the Mormon Stories podcast community.

John Dehlin [00:01:17] Tyler Glenn is back with Neon Trees. They've been doing some cool stuff and Covid has not been helpful. But regardless, Tyler Glenn, it's so cool to have you back on Mormon Stories podcast.

Tyler Glenn [00:01:29] Thanks for having. Thanks. Thank you. Good to see you.

John Dehlin [00:01:32] Welcome. Yeah, it's great to have you. In addition, we also have Paul Cardall and many of you will know Paul Cardall because we recently had him on Mormon Stories podcast. Paul has sold more Mormon themed music on Spotify than anyone else I know. Maybe even more than the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, I'm not sure. But Paul was raised Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:01:58] He, you know, did the fireside circuit. You know, many of you have, whether you know it or not, have been listening to and or streaming Paul's musical compositions and specifically his hymns through Spotify and through CDs and through however else you get your music.

John Dehlin [00:02:18] Paul recently has talked about his faith journey within Mormonism that has included him, ironically, maybe having, let's just say, some distance from orthodox Mormonism and rediscovering and even enhancing his own personal journey with Christianity. And Paul Cardall is coming out with a new album launching this week that also coincides with the brand new book project and a lot of other cool things. He's got a lot of really important musical artists on his new album that includes Tyler Glenn, but it also includes several other cool artists and I'm just thrilled to be a part of the launch of this new album that we're gonna have you talk all about Paul and we're gonna have Tyler, you talk about it as well. So Paul Cardall. Welcome back to Mormon Stories podcast and congratulations on the launch of your new album.

Paul Cardall [00:03:13] Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much, John. It's always good to be with you and I love your podcast.

John Dehlin [00:03:20] Thank you. All right, so we are, we are super excited to have listeners joining us. We've already got some comments coming in. Harry writes, tyler Glenn rocks. And I'll just share a couple things. Raymond is saying hello. Oh, no, that's Harry saying, tyler Glenn rocks. We've got Raymond saying hello from Odessa, Texas. That's Friday Night Lights territory, the Odessa Permian Basin. Thanks for joining us, Raymond.

John Dehlin [00:03:49] Gary's joining us from Aberdeen, Scotland, and we really want. And of course, Allison is saying, I'm really looking forward to this chat. So we really want our live listeners to have this kind of be collaborative. We've got a live stream going to Facebook. We've got a live stream going on to YouTube as well.

John Dehlin [00:04:11] Lots of Tyler Glenn love. No offense, Paul, I love you, but. And of course we love Tyler. But the listeners are super excited to see Tyler Glenn in the house. Julie is saying, love Tyler Glenn. I've been so looking forward to today. Katie is saying, tyler, I've been thinking about you and your healing journey. So great to see you, Paul. Actually, it's. Justin is saying, paul and Tyler, I love you guys. So many comments are streaming in. Welcome to you all. Paul, if it's all right, let's start with you for, for this interview, why don't you talk a bit about the Broken Miracle album, What it's all about, what I missed in your introduction, and maybe let's start there. Is that okay?

Paul Cardall [00:04:56] Yeah, that's great.

John Dehlin [00:04:57] All right.

Paul Cardall [00:04:58] Yeah. So the Broken Miracle album is my memoir album. If there's an opportunity for an artist at some point in their career to tell their story, and obviously people are probably familiar with my instrumental piano based music. And though there's 11 tracks on here that are very calm, soothing the way I usually do it, there's eight additional songs with words that are very specific to this spiritual awakening or shift that I've had in learning more about really how to value not only myself, but the people around me.

Paul Cardall [00:05:42] And it's inspired by this novel that JD Neto has written called the Broken Miracle. And why does that novel exist is mainly because congenital heart disease is the number one cause of infant related deaths. And I was born with only half a heart.

Paul Cardall [00:06:03] I had countless surgeries, a lot of medical trauma, and I've been able to survive and thrive and live my dream of making music. And you know, so I get all these families who are really nervous, stressed and worried about their child, whether or not that child with their chronic illness is going to have a bright future.

Paul Cardall [00:06:31] So they tend to email me. I've spent thousands of hours and thousands of emails sharing my story with them in hopes that they would recognize that if you take control over your health care and do research and really apply yourself that you can have a productive, healthy outcome to these illnesses.

Paul Cardall [00:06:56] Not just the physical, but the emotional and the mental that come later in life as a result of the surgical procedures that you have. So I wanted to create a something that people I could share with them. Because, you know, John, as you start to answer emails, it's time away from family, it's time away from living life.

Paul Cardall [00:07:23] And so that's why I got with JD Neto, who's a best selling fantasy writer, born in Brazil, first language is Portuguese, studied English, became a best selling author. And I just thought, this is a guy who can create a story based on everything I'd been through that's going to help people recognize their value.

Paul Cardall [00:07:47] The fact that you can survive and that the people that come into your life teach you so much about who you are, who they are, and how to see the world. Not through a glass darkly or through a specific type of glass, that you can see everything without that, that the veil can be removed from your eyes to see the true character and nature of everybody. And that's why with this album, this album, you know, I've been really tired over the years of systems that tend to draw a line in the sand to define what is good and what is not good, what is right and what is wrong.

Paul Cardall [00:08:38] And they create these truths that are not necessarily born out of love. They think they're doing it out of safety and protection, but in what it's doing is it's actually hurting people, it's hurting families. And there are some people that can stay within that box of the moralists that just do everything because it's just what they do. But then you have seekers and people that are different, that are considered outcast and misfits. And so I'm an outcast, I'm a misfit, I'm a creative, I'm an artist. We're often seen as strange, but we are the guys on the ground, the women on the ground that are really trying to express and explain life.

Paul Cardall [00:09:28] And with the hopes that people, the moralists get can take a, take a note and maybe change some things for society to improve so that we can all be Loved and accepted the way I see Jesus, the way Jesus encountered us. So you have a large group of people that are on this album. And the first person, I mean, the day I met Tyler at Love Loud, I'd been a fan of his music.

Paul Cardall [00:09:58] His album Excommunication had a deep impact on me artistically. The song Midnight that he did, I mean, I've listened to it thousands of times. You know, for a kid that's had heart surgery, it's almost like a make a wish foundation to get a chance to work with Tyler.

Paul Cardall [00:10:17] And, you know, he accepted that and we started working on this song. I know it hurts hoping that people recognize how valuable they are and that nobody can define your worthiness.

John Dehlin [00:10:39] I love it. Let me. Let me just say, let me incorporate one comment from a listener. Andrew McFarland writes, My son was born with a congenital heart disease. Plus, Paul Cardall's music was a staple in our home to help feel some peace during the stressful times.

Paul Cardall's Background and Musical Journey

John Dehlin [00:10:58] Thanks for your work and for sharing your story. And I just want to reiterate to my listeners, you need to. If you haven't listened to my interview with Paul Cardall, his story is really important. There's a lot of people, number one, who leave an orthodox religion and really struggle to. To sort of answer the question, what is spirituality? What do I do with God and Jesus?

John Dehlin [00:11:24] Can I still believe? Should I still have beliefs? How do I emerge from the dark night of the soul, so to speak? And Paul, I think my interview with you is really inspirational because you've been through a lot. And yes, there are a lot of ex Mormons and post Mormons that go towards atheism and agnosticism and even enjoy spirituality without religion. But there are others that really want to hold on to God or Jesus. And I think your story is inspirational just because of all you've accomplished and all you've accomplished with so many, you know, odds against you, and then how you're kind of turning so much of your adversity, including your own faith crisis, including your own struggles with the Mormon Church, including your own struggles with, you know, with faith, into something that is offering people a light and a model for what ways that they can, if they want to hold on to God in Christ and still have hope and meaning after kind of a really traumatic set of life experiences and or religious tradition.

John Dehlin [00:12:30] And so I just want to. I want to thank Andrew for his comment and refer my listeners to my interview with you because your story is really important and it's kind of epic,

Paul Cardall [00:12:40] and I really appreciate that, you know, I. I let you know that, you know, within weeks of doing Mormon stories, 1800 people unsubscribed from my mailing list. And I can understand that because a lot of them are still very active in the faith. And I respect that. I completely respect that. At the same time, we had several dozen reach out and say thank you.

Paul Cardall [00:13:05] I have wanted to get out and focus more on my relationship with Jesus Christ. And I've had others that have said, I already have a relationship with Jesus Christ, and I'm not asking you to have a relationship. I'm asking you to be nice the way Jesus was.

Paul Cardall [00:13:24] That's what I'm trying to be, is nice. He never treated people anything but with compassion. It was the religious zealots that he chewed out. There was never a council held for any person when Jesus was on the earth except a council held for him and they ended up killing him.

Paul Cardall [00:13:49] So I think people, you know, it's a tough situation. It's sad because I have so much love and respect for faith, for people who believe and people who don't necessarily know the past, the history, all that stuff. So I really admire the fact that they continue forward. And it's not my job to say, you're wrong. It's more, I'm just trying to, through music, heal hearts because my heart's been healed and just bring some awareness to the fact that Jesus was a really good example of how to treat people with love and respect. If there's anybody that understood love and acceptance, it was Jesus.

John Dehlin [00:14:39] I love that. A couple comments I'm just going to share because they're relevant. Julie writes, okay, now I love Paul too. So that's a Tyler Glenn fan that now is a Paul Cardall fan. Really important listener, John Maclay. One of the Very Early Mormon Stories podcast episodes, John and Brooke maclay. John, John McClay was a former CES director in Colorado who lost his faith while he was a CES director. And John McClay writes, very inspiring, Paul. I'm sure John was a big fan of yours, Paul, and probably still is. And he writes, very inspiring, Paul. I think we all know people with whole hearts who have less heart than you.

John Dehlin [00:15:18] So sweet. Lacy writes, excommunication is some type of positive icon. I think she's talking about Tyler's album, of course. My dear friend Kimberly Anderson writes, much love, my friends. Now I think it's time. Oh, and Andrew writes, loved, loved the Mormon stories interview with Paul. Highly recommend. Though I'm no longer a believer, I still love his music and have it on various playlists. And of course, Mindy says, paul and Tyler, you are two of my favorites. All right, so now I think it's time to bring.

Catching Up with Tyler Glenn

John Dehlin [00:15:54] To catch up with Tyler Glenn. So, Tyler, it is so awesome to have you back on Mormon Stories. And I think my first question is, what the heck have you been doing since. Since our last Mormon Stories interview? Fill us in, brother.

Tyler Glenn [00:16:10] Yeah, a lot. I think I talked to you five years ago, which is kind of wild. You know, I think. I think a lot of. A lot of. A lot of people don't realize that when I put. When I was creating the record Excommunication, when I was also having a faith crisis, those two things were happening at the same time. And I think for the health of my mind, I gotta be honest, I was trepidatious to even come on today. You know, I was trepidatious to do the song with Paul when he asked me last year. The truth and the fact of the matter is that this is a traumatic experience to leave something that you put so much stock into and you felt

John Dehlin [00:17:08] was

Tyler Glenn [00:17:10] the key to everything. And the troubling part, for someone that's divinely queer, like me, I'm gay. And I spent so much of my life pushing that down and conforming to something that didn't even have space for me. And for me, the last five years has been, how do I get away from the trauma and the pain and not live in the space of anger and sadness the rest of my life? Because I think a lot of your listeners and a lot of the people that you. As someone that hosts a platform like this, you greet a lot of people as they're leaving and waking up and seeing a lot of light, especially in a face setting.

Guest [00:18:00] And

Tyler Glenn [00:18:04] I come on here to encourage people to do everything they can to move past this space of heartbreak. I also validate how long that journey may take, and everyone's experience is different. But, you know, I. When Paul asked me to do this song, I was. I was instantly like, I've said everything I want to say about God. I've said everything I want to say about the religion.

Tyler Glenn [00:18:38] I've said everything I want to say about my pain, my breakup with what I thought God was. And I've moved. I've dug really deep to move past this image of being the sad gay ex Mormon. And I then really sat with that. And I knew that instead of writing a song about the anger and the pain, let's validate those that are just starting to feel that Hurt. Let's validate those that haven't felt, seen, or heard yet. And I think this song. I know, I know it hurts. I feel more empowered on this song. I feel more like I'm in a place of greeting those as well, that.

Tyler Glenn [00:19:26] That are coming to the light. You know, there's a bigger picture than just Mormonism and ex Mormonism. You know, there's a bigger world out there. I think Paul asked me to do this song right around Black Lives Matter and right around a lot of other serious actual things going on in the world. You know, the pain and the trauma that the Mormon Church inflicts on people and the space that they don't have for many is real. But let's not forget that the Mormon Church is made up. Right? It's a fantasy land. So to put stock and to give power to something that's essentially been made up is silly.

Tyler Glenn [00:20:14] So I come here today to encourage, you know, those that feel like they've been stuck on a Reddit thread for way too long or they're tired of waking up and feeling angry and lost every day to. To truly assess what. What are we doing here on this earth.

Tyler Glenn [00:20:33] And as I speak, I get choked up. As I speak, I get, you know, the pain is still raw. So I think what I've been doing last five years is just trying to get a sense of myself as Tyler and not Tyler the Mormon, not Tyler the ex Mormon, not even Tyler the gay man.

Tyler Glenn [00:20:56] But. But truly, like, how do I merge all of these weird double and triple lives I've led my entire life and dismantle that compartmentalizing. And I found myself in a really great space and then Corona happened and it's like I feel instantly retested.

Tyler Glenn [00:21:16] But luckily I feel like I have this new toolkit since the trauma of having a faith crisis and the trauma of codependency to, To. To ex Mormonism, to a friendship with you, John, to. To this codependency, to feeling like I needed to be some sort of savior symbol or martyr symbol.

Tyler Glenn [00:21:40] I feel really free and I. I desperately want those that are in pain or feeling like they're waiting in a sea of. Of trauma to feel free, to feel freedom. So, yeah, that's my piece at this point.

John Dehlin [00:22:01] So beautiful. And listeners are just loving what both of you have to say. And Tyler, we will just, speaking as part of a broader community, we will never be able to thank you for the courage and the sacrifices that. That you made.

John Dehlin [00:22:20] You know, one thing I know for sure is that whether, whether it's music or TV or film or even psychology. The safest thing is always to stay away from religion because in some sense it's hard to, it's always hard, it's always impossible to succeed creatively as an artist. And so, and so why would you ever talk about religion? There's, there's almost only downside. And so I see what you did five years ago as this monumental act of courage, but it also, I, you know, from, from the amount of time I was able to be observer of that. It, it's not, it, it is re traumatizing and you were almost willing to re traumatize and sacrifice yourself over and over again and you know, probably like Paul mentioned, maybe lose a couple fans or supporters, but you did it for the good of all.

John Dehlin [00:23:24] And it's also just so inspiring that you decided you wanted to make some acts of self care and take care of yourself. And I'm just, I think we're all so inspired by your courage and glad to see you putting yourself first to heal and grow. It's so inspiring.

Tyler Glenn [00:23:46] Thank you. I mean it's true like I, I feel, you know, just re traumatizing as I was making that record. But then I stayed, I felt like I was doing that for, for years after, you know, I've had, I've been able to have the distinct pleasure of getting to know other fellow ex Mormons and post Mormons that remain friends and I, and then people that I watch and I, I, I just, I just don't want us as people that have suddenly found ourselves thrust into the world. I just don't want us to feel like that was all that we had, that was our only purpose, you know, and I, I hope my words don't come across as self absorbed or enlightened in any way.

Tyler Glenn [00:24:38] I feel, I just feel like I want to remind people there is a giant world that is actually real and let's dismantle those systems while we're also dismantling, you know, this, this religion. And I also don't want to come across disrespectful to Paul's journey because although I haven't found a replacement or clarity in what the savior or what a God or what any of that looks like, I'm not even in a rush to do so. I also respect Paul's, you know, there's things that I have never experienced that he has and I, I can't take that away. And so listeners as well, like I can't, I can't begin to put myself in anyone else's shoes.

Tyler Glenn [00:25:34] But my personal experience, especially as a gay man, I know that the upbringing in the Mormon church resultingly traumatizing didn't have messaging for me in the slightest. Therefore to stay in a place of ex Mormonism and hurt would be would almost just be wasting time and I'm so much more interested in in what the world has for me and in store as that's affirming that that I can share my voice to you. That also affirms others especially in the LGBT space.

John Dehlin [00:26:06] So I love it. So we got to incorporate some wonderful comments. Julie writes so beautifully said Tyler, I think I left about the same time as you. Everything Tyler is saying is hitting my heart so deep. That's Julie. Belinda writes divinely queer. I love that phrase. I love you Shout out from our mutual friend Kevin Jensen. He says I love you Tyler.

John Dehlin [00:26:30] Hey Kevin, it's good to see you joined. Let's see Person of Interest writes Tyler, I feel your heart so much. Thank you for your courage. I broke up with the church as a 70 year old widow in November 2015. We all know what that date means and Person of Interest says your song Midnight was one of the first songs that came up and just a couple others.

John Dehlin [00:26:58] Jaden writes, tyler is a badass and a great friend, super down to earth and one of the most real people you'll ever meet. I can say that's true as well. Yvonne writes, both of your journeys are amazing. Thank you for sharing so many other good comments. Well, if it's okay guys, let's now I let's, let's just spend a couple minutes on the history of this song and how it, how it came to form and how you guys came to create it. Then we'll play it and then we'll do a little bit of reflection on it and then we'll, we'll end with some Q A. Is that all right?

Tyler Glenn [00:27:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:39] Okay, who wants to start on telling the story of the birth of this song? I'll go.

The Making of a New Album in Nashville

Paul Cardall [00:27:45] All right, Paul When I moved to Nashville, one of the first artists I met big stars was Ty Herndon, who was the first country artist that's Grammy nominated to come out in 2014 and it almost ruined his career. But he came full circle and asked if I would be willing to go play Love Loudfest. He knew I was from Utah, he knew I was Mormon and had influence and he knew that I had lost my best friend Chris Beers, who had worked for President Packard in the Mission Department and had taken his life. And so we went out to play Love Loud. And that's where I met Tyler for the first time. And

Guest [00:28:40] I just.

Paul Cardall [00:28:40] I just observed this amazing man, his talent, the way he presented himself. When he went to the crowd to sing Somewhere over the Rainbow, it was such a. Like, there are certain people that walk in a room and, you know, they're a star. And that's. That's Tyler Glenn. So right there and then I was

Paul Cardall [00:29:05] like, man, I gotta figure out how

Paul Cardall [00:29:08] do I work with this guy?

Paul Cardall [00:29:09] Because

Paul Cardall [00:29:11] I'm a pianist, but occasionally I'll do a song and have a vocalist. So part of. I mean, part of the process of doing the Broken Miracle was the chance not just to work with other artists, but to work with Tyler.

Paul Cardall [00:29:26] And, you know, I just. I reached out to him, I kept keeping in touch with him, and. And then I think, Tyler, if I remember what happened was you agreed to do it, and we got together over at the studio during COVID This was, like, near the end of where things were kind of loosening up a little bit, but we were still kind of nervous about getting together and, you know, we still kind of kept some social distance and stuff. And it was hard to make a record during COVID but he came to the studio in Salt Lake, and I just sat on the couch and pretty much cried for two hours, telling him my story and things I'd been through and frustrations and confusion and.

Paul Cardall [00:30:24] And he just started pinning down the lyrics and it wouldn't. It was within. It didn't take long. It took probably less than an hour to write this song. Gave me a little bit of a melody. I started playing the chords, and then he went in and just sang it like.

Paul Cardall [00:30:43] Like out of the park. Like, it was. It happened so quickly. It was. It was so mesmerizing as a. I mean, I've been in this business 25 years, but to work with Tyler, and I'm not just kissing your ass, Tyler, that you are.

Paul Cardall [00:31:02] I mean, it's mind blowing, the talent that flows, but not just the. I mean, there's this divine inspiration that flows through him. If there's anyone that lights up when they're writing some revelation down some music, that's Tyler. It's really.

Paul Cardall [00:31:21] It was amazing. Just the whole process. I would relive that again and again. Not so much the crying, but to be. I was the only one in the room, like, literally watching him unfold this.

Paul Cardall [00:31:36] This.

Paul Cardall [00:31:36] This ballad that is almost like a. Like a Broadway pop alternative ballad.

Paul Cardall [00:31:43] It's just insane.

John Dehlin [00:31:47] That was beautiful. Tyler, what do you want to add to that? The the origin stories of this song. What do you want to add? Sorry, you're muted. Tyler, just one second. Sorry. Okay, Tyler, go ahead, Go ahead.

Tyler Glenn [00:32:05] No, I mean, you know, like I said. Like I said, when he asked me, I. It had nothing to do like it had. I was absolutely excited about the idea. I think even Paul had sent me, like, two.

Tyler Glenn [00:32:20] Two songs that, like, were already written and kind of fleshed out that I could have sang. And I think, what if I was going to be a part of something, especially in regards to a faith journey or, you know, anything that I could personally speak to? I wanted to be able to at least, like, share. Share lyrics and vocal from my own life, you know, and.

Tyler Glenn [00:32:47] And I think the only reason why I was trepidatious is because, like I said, I think when I worked really hard, I'd done Broadway in 2000, end of 2018, summer of 2018, and I think when I did that, I left. I got to go to New York for. For, like, five months and live there and, like, envelop myself in this other world. And I didn't want to come back to Utah, where my home is, and regress again into despair. I didn't want to regress. And I knew I wasn't, like, healed from my faith journey. Clearly. I still get shaky talking about it, but I think I needed to be able to have the space if I was going to do it on this record, to be able to just be authentic as well.

Tyler Glenn [00:33:37] And the gift was that Paul was totally down to create something fresh. Like he said, it was Covid. There was only three of us in the room, and it was special because it was quick. And I think my favorite creative space is when we all know our worth in the room and we're all bringing our best and we're not stepping over each other. And that was that experience that afternoon, writing the song.

Tyler Glenn [00:34:10] Paul's an exceptional pianist and has a distinct, you know, melodic. You know, obviously he plays. And although I can play piano guitar to write songs, I think there's just something extra powerful to have someone that. That owns that and knows that and brings that. And. And I just felt like, let's. I think we even talked about a few song references. Like, I brought up Peter Gabriel's Here Comes the Flood because that song, although is a secular song and it's, you know, is a. It comes from a genius that's not necessarily even. I don't know, related to it. Spirituality, in a sense, I felt that. I've always felt that song as a hymn, you know, There was a couple Billy Joel songs that were always, you know, these really minimal piano ballads that had this.

Tyler Glenn [00:35:01] This really, like, husky vocal on it, and Bruce Springsteen, as well as one of my, like, direct influences. And I just to jump at the opportunity to have a ballad, because Neon Trees, typically, we don't have many ballads on our records. I think the last ballad I did was my song Midnight, and I think I just was so excited to be able to really sing on a. On a song. And.

Tyler Glenn [00:35:25] Yeah, so it's exactly how Paul. How Paul put it. And I had had some poetry from my faith crisis that I was able to pull from certain parts of the verses. But as he was playing and speaking and as he was telling me his story, you know, the overarching theme that I wanted to get across, especially because although this is a song about leaving a system that's not for you or waking up to something that you realize was a fraud or just seeking validation for your pain, I also was writing it in the midst of COVID where I felt like my entire, like. Like many, if not everyone, their schedules were ripped from them, their calendars, their.

Tyler Glenn [00:36:16] Their comforts. And I found myself. After we put out the Neon Trees album in. In July, I found myself in, like, peak despair mode, you know, And I was so sad that I was back to this place of.

Tyler Glenn [00:36:33] I felt like I've really worked to, like, shake some of those demons. And I found myself tested again. And so, you know, the chorus. Excuse me, the chorus to the song is. I know it hurts. Finding your worth I know it hurts. You've been through worse. Feeling so small in a big universe. I know it hurts.

Tyler Glenn [00:36:57] I was. I was essentially singing to myself at that point. Because you work so hard to be seen. I've worked so hard to be seen and understood and yet felt found myself thrust in this, this year like everyone, where there's so much unknown, so much unrest, and I just. I didn't want to write a song where I was necessarily sobbing through it again. I just wanted to validate those that also feel the pain that I've felt.

Tyler Glenn [00:37:35] And I just am so happy the way the song turned out. It's so tasteful in its minimalism, and to be able to just sing, sing with my whole heart on a song is really powerful. So, you know, although it's not my record, although it speaks to Paul's journey and a greater universe in these novels, I just feel grateful to be even a portion of it.

John Dehlin [00:38:04] I love it. Thank you, Tyler. We have to share a comment from Mama. Mama Glenn. Deborah. Glenn writes. I've always known of Tyler's aura. He is a gift. So shout out.

Paul Cardall [00:38:17] How do I get my mom on here?

John Dehlin [00:38:19] I know.

Tyler Glenn [00:38:19] Yeah, we gotta get mom support, right?

World Premiere of "I Know It Hurts"

John Dehlin [00:38:22] Well, let's do it. Let's play. Let's. Now, without any further ado, let's play I Know It Hurts by Paul Cardall and Tyler Glenn. And this will be the Mormon Stories premiere of. Of I Know It Hurts. You guys ready?

Tyler Glenn [00:38:35] Let's do it. Let's watch it.

John Dehlin [00:38:36] All right, let's do.

▶ Video Clip 1

Video Clip 1 [00:38:57] You've been floating out in space you just wanted to believe? There were tears upon your face and your body felt no ease. Dear God, is there not more? Cause it's cold on the church floor. Oh, Seemed like no one here would listen. But you found in pain a friend. We were victims of the system? Still we prayed our hearts to mend. Dear God, is there not more? Cause it's cold on the church floor?

Video Clip 1 [00:39:35] Oh,

Video Clip 1 [00:39:40] And I know it hurts. Finding your worth, I know it hurts You've been through words feeling so small in a big universe? I know it hurts

Video Clip 1 [00:40:02] in a graveyard There were crosses, there were stained glass window doors. And the church bells rang and angels sang. But the symbols were not ours. Dear God, is there not more? Cause it's cold on the church floor?

Video Clip 1 [00:40:19] Oh,

Video Clip 1 [00:40:24] Here you find yourself a new road and they wish that you could stay.

Video Clip 1 [00:40:30] There's a faint light at the ending

Video Clip 1 [00:40:32] and it's calling you away. Dear God, I hope there's more? Cause it's cold on the church floor?

Video Clip 1 [00:40:40] Oh,

Video Clip 1 [00:40:45] And I know it hurts. Finding your worth? I know it hurts You've been through words Feeling so small in a big universe? I know it hurts and I know it hurts. Finding you worth I know it hurts You've been through words feeling so small in a big universe? I know it hurts. Finding your way back home. Finding your way back home. Finding my way back home? I'm finding my way back home. Finding my way back home? I'm finding my way back home.

John Dehlin [00:42:27] Wow. So many feels. Kimberly Anderson writes. Damn you, Tyler. I'm not supposed to cry halfway through a work day. Much love to you and Paul. Shout out to Kimberly. Trans lives, gender non binary lives as well. Matter grateful for what you do for us. Kimberly, Can I do this?

Paul Cardall [00:42:56] Yeah, man.

John Dehlin [00:42:58] I preparing for this interview. I listened to this song a bunch of times and it got in my brain and like I. I woke up at 3am with the song going through my brain. It's such a powerful song and such a powerful performance. Really quickly, Tyler would You mind sharing with us any reactions you have that, that specifically might. Might speak to the audience that you know, is listening that you want to share just in response. In response to watching what we just watched?

Reactions to the Song and Its Meaning

Tyler Glenn [00:43:27] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hairy Chest Lives Matter as well. No, I'm just kidding. My. I, I was paying attention. You know, it's nice to remove and just watch something that I'm not picking myself apart in. And that was probably the first time I just was able to simply watch and I, I was paying attention to the lyrics. And you know, when you just freely write something, sometimes you put it to you pen to pad and then you. You sing it and then you. You live with finishing it. You want it to sound good, but you don't really sit and with. Sit with it. And I hope that the song speaks specifically to.

Tyler Glenn [00:44:20] To a lot of the journey of. Of. Of, you know, specifically leaving the faith or adjusting your view in the. In. In regards to faith. You know, the. The stained glass window doors, graveyard, there were crosses, you know, that speaks to that search for where. Where do I put all of these spiritual feelings that I was told were divine and from the spirit, but yet I now know or have discovered that a lot of that was either fabricated or, you know, that was the biggest kind of blow to me because I, you know, you carry.

Tyler Glenn [00:45:07] I carried for so long this weight of trying to be. Be a good Mormon, knowing I was gay, suppressing that most of my 20s. Then I was in this, this band that was doing well and touring the world and we were all Mormon and we were telling. We weren't shying away from that.

Tyler Glenn [00:45:29] And so you for so long carry this weight in this message, even though, you know, you're so conflicted inside and you're doing so many. You're jumping through so many hoops in your mind to make it all make sense, that when you finally let yourself look at everything and truly assess for yourself and you're not worried about what anyone's gonna say, you just are really looking like, what am I doing with my life? And what is. How does this apply?

Tyler Glenn [00:45:56] You feel taken advantage of, you feel lied to, you feel misled and you feel embarrassed. And so all of those. I know all those feelings. And so as. As much as I want to put all of that behind me, as much as I want to never speak about the Mormon Church again, I also know how special it is to be able to be a person or an artist that. That has a space to write music. And how. How can I use that experience? Because for better, for worse, this is only one life. And my body's always going to remember being a Mormon. My mind, my life, my story is always going to have that in it.

Tyler Glenn [00:46:44] And I. I choose to take that and try to put it through something that's going to help someone else. And, you know, I'm not. I'm not. I have my own set of issues and workaholism and. And, you know, all kinds of things that I. I have to get through. And.

Tyler Glenn [00:47:07] But I. I do know that there is life outside of Mormonism, outside of post Mormonism, and. And I also am so ecstatic to still not know anything. You know, I've said this before, but, like, as a Mormon, we always recite how much we know. We know the church is true. We know Joseph Smith is a prophet. We know. We know. We know. It is so blissful to live in the space of not knowing anything for sure and taking it as it comes. And I'm. I, you know, if I can speak to that and those people that feel the same way, then.

Paul Cardall [00:47:43] Then.

Tyler Glenn [00:47:44] Amazing. So that's kind of what I was feeling.

John Dehlin [00:47:47] Beautiful. Thank you, Tyler. Paul, what. What were your thoughts for our audience as you were watching?

Paul Cardall [00:47:55] Well, I. You know, I've heard this song hundreds of times, and I still get emotional, particularly as Tyler takes that chorus and it crescendos to even a higher melody. And that was all him. And I think ideally, what this song does is validate that you are not alone in your pain, your frustration, your faith crisis.

Paul Cardall [00:48:30] I. I'm not a big fan of the faith crisis word. I think we are shifting away, evolving into who we were supposed to be in the first place. But philosophy mingled with scripture kind of took us on this other path. And I am forever blessed and grateful to have been a Mormon because it led me to where I am now, to this big, beautiful world that exists that, like Tyler says, you don't. You used to kind of know because it was packaged so perfectly and so you would believe it and you'd say so much. I know, I know, I know. But what we do know is that it hurts when you discover and learn that the.

Paul Cardall [00:49:24] The principles that are being taught are not really working. I was not getting the healing. I know hundreds of people that are not getting the healing by doing the process of what is taught. And the main reason I have pursued a relationship or a Christian life is because for me, Jesus embodies every virtue and value of the type of person I want to be that I'm far from. And then the Christ I've come To understand, accepts everyone as they are, unless they're intentionally putting a line in the sand and saying, you're not worthy.

Paul Cardall [00:50:15] He attracted the irreligious. He attracted, you know, those that wanted nothing to do. So if. If that's what he attracted, and the churches today are not attracting that, there's something seriously flawed in the message. It doesn't matter if, for me, if, you know, there's a fraud. It's. It's to exclude people, you know, over this idea of revelation.

Paul Cardall [00:50:49] I mean, I've learned about more people receiving revelation outside of Mormonism than when I was in Mormonism. When I was in Mormonism, it was always confusing. Is it the spirit? Is it me? Is it? And yet outside, I live in the south, and everybody is receiving revelation the way that Mormons say you're supposed to receive revelation.

Paul Cardall [00:51:11] So it's a big eye opener, but obviously. And I can ramble and go on and on, but for me, I mean, I know it hurts this life when you are told your entire life, it is this. And then, you know, the veil is removed. You know, Dorothy goes and discovers it's not the grand old wizard. It's just a guy who looks through a ball and sees things. You know, I mean, it's.

Paul Cardall [00:51:43] It's crazy.

Paul Cardall [00:51:44] It's crazy. But I think what the song does is validate that everybody is valuable. Everybody is welcome to the table. Everyone's welcome to my table. And I can't imagine a world without all this. All these unique differences, all these unique things that challenge us to learn how to. How to love and how to get along and not be such a jerk. So. But the great thing with music is people are going to get what they need out of it. You're going to get what you need out of it. And so as you listen to this song and the other songs on the the Broken Miracle album, there will be moments where you'll be like, oh, my gosh, that was written for me. Because music is so personalized.

John Dehlin [00:52:39] I love it. So I asked listeners beforehand to share some questions. We've got probably, I don't know, eight or nine questions that have been sent in. I don't. And I don't want to put you guys on the spot because we agreed to just kind of an hour, and that's super generous. Tell me real quickly if you guys have more time than seven more minutes. And I just want to be able to adjust the questions accordingly. How are you on time, Paul? And there's no pressure if you got to run.

Listener Q&A Begins

Paul Cardall [00:53:07] No, I. I think we should answer people's questions, if that's okay.

John Dehlin [00:53:11] Tyler, you got, you got a few extra minutes maybe? Oh, wait, Tyler, I, I, I keep muting you. Okay, so to get. Tyler, I keep muting you just because your phone sometimes has a little tick, so.

Tyler Glenn [00:53:22] Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, no, I'm down to answer questions. This is great.

John Dehlin [00:53:26] Beautiful, Beautiful. Okay. This is just. I'm just so loving this. All right, so, questions. First question is from philofscience@exmormon Reddit, which Tyler you referenced. He writes for both of you, but mainly for Tyler Glenn. Was the pain you've experienced as a result of being a Mormon worth it when you consider the influence it has had on creating the art you've made both before and after your Excommunication album? That's an interesting question. So, Tata, you take that first. And then, Paul, if you want to add anything to that, that, I mean, like, I, that's such an impossible question.

Tyler Glenn [00:54:04] Yeah, I just suppose, like, it was my life, so I, I don't, you know, it's worth continuing to live and see what happens, but I, I think, you know, I'll answer that with a statement that kind of pivots a little bit. But it's just, I never want to make an album like that again if that's, you know, I, and that's to say I never want to be in a place where I'm that raw and having to write about something so existential and yet so personal. And I, I, I'm so grateful that I had the space to do that. And it's a, It's a special kind of record because I think I went into it thinking I was making a mainstream pop album, but because it was, like, on a label and all that.

Tyler Glenn [00:54:53] But I, I, I've, since five years, you know, it's gonna be five years in a few months. I, I can look at it now and kind of see it's finding an audience every few days. You know, I'm always, I'm always. There's never not a day or week where I'm getting a message about finding the record or listening to the record again and realizing it means something different. And that's powerful.

Tyler Glenn [00:55:19] And that's not to say I never want to write another record that's deeply personal. I feel like everything I do, I put myself into, but I, that, you know, I also, on the flip side, don't think you need to be sick or broken to make great art.

Tyler Glenn [00:55:35] Although I am forever a Morrissey fan and, you know, like, to wade in the sorrow a bit. And I'm kind of a goth at heart. I. I know how detrimental that can also be for me. And I know staying in the dark too long can actually hurt me. And as a 37 year old, I. I realize, like, you know, that might kill me. I don't. I kind of want to stay alive to see how much I can do or discover. So I don't think it's worth it. But I am grateful that through my life's traumas and experiences, I was in a place where I was able to make a record like that, with the infrastructure backing it with the talent that I was able to make that record.

Tyler Glenn [00:56:29] And then it's gotten me to do things with Dan Reynolds and Love Loud and our whole board and how we evolve the message of LGBT inclusion within faith. And it's led me to be able to make this song with Paul. And so, you know, I continue to want to be able to use that for good, but I don't think anyone should ever have to go through, especially in your 30s, that. But I think it's good. You know, I know plenty of people. You know, there was a comment earlier where someone in their 70s, it's never too late to.

Tyler Glenn [00:57:08] To open your eyes, but. But, yeah, I don't know. I don't know if it was worth it, but I think I explained my answer the way I explained it.

John Dehlin [00:57:17] Thank you, Tyler.

Tyler Glenn [00:57:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:19] Paul, you want to add anything to that question?

Paul Cardall [00:57:21] Yeah. I'm a huge Tolkien fan. And, you know, Sam Gamgee always that quote where he says, even darkness must pass, a new day will come, and when the sun shines, it will shine out the clear. And, you know, it's fascinating because I've said to myself, when I was orthodox Mormon, I'm so grateful for all this pain because it's enabled me to create such a deep understanding of pain.

Paul Cardall [00:57:56] And yet, as a Christian, now I go, wait a second. I shouldn't have been carrying that weight, that burden, you know? And again, Sam G. Another one. He says, Come, Mr. Frodo, he cried, I can't carry it for you, but I can carry you. I was carrying all the weight, and I needed to. To get rid of that weight. And once the heart transplant came 11 years ago and all of the, you know, the PTSD evolved into. Into a divorce and then just completely unsure of who I was and my purpose. Yet I, you know, continued be. Be a good, strong priesthood leader, take their advice.

Paul Cardall [00:58:42] And as I was taking their advice, my life just got worse. And then finally meeting my wife, Tina, who was not Mormon. And it's not like she ever said, hey, come with me and let's, let's get out of that. No. If anything, she was encouraging me to be loyal and faithful to my heritage, but it was watching her and then observing and traveling and all these experiences, I just came to the conclusion that I didn't have to carry this, this burden anymore.

Paul Cardall [00:59:19] You know, the, the taking the ring to Mordor, that there was someone who could carry me. And it was this, you know, it's still this process of letting go, because the Mormon mentality is, we're going to do this, we're gonna, you know, we're gonna conquer, we're gonna overcome. But when I finally learned that, you know, you don't have to do that, you just let it. He took care of it. I know that sounds like real easy and, you know, but just that whole concept of letting it go. And there's a lot of atheists and agnostics that go through AA that recognize in step three, you have to let go and let a higher power let something much bigger than yourself take over.

Paul Cardall [01:00:08] And so now it's more of a reflection back. And I know this is a long answer to that question, but it's a reflection back on that. Now I can just interpret what I went through and say, I totally understand where you are at in, in terms of doubting and questioning.

Paul Cardall [01:00:30] And I'm hoping that through the music, we just are bringing validation to your value. That doesn't mean we're encouraging you to, you know, to get in arguments with family, because that would be contrary, and that would be. That would be counterproductive. And, And I don't think that's.

Paul Cardall [01:00:50] You don't leave to hate. You leave to be free. And the freedom that I'm talking about is that, that that burden is just removed. But like Tyler said, you know, you pretty much, you can take the boy out of Mormonism, but the Mormonism, it takes a long time to get out of the boy.

John Dehlin [01:01:14] Love it. Thanks, Paul. All right, next. Next question is From into the Unknown 99 Again on the ex Mormon Reddit forum. The church teaches we will never be happy outside of it. How do you overcome that thinking? All right, Paul. All right, Tyler, what's your answer to the people who, who are believing the church's message that you'll never be happy without the Church?

Finding Peace and Happiness After Leaving the Church

Tyler Glenn [01:01:44] You know, that's, that's why, that's why I'm, I'm choosy about even the, the, you know, that's why I mentioned trepidations about coming on the podcast today, trepidatious about lending my story to yet another song about, you know, pain, leaving faith. And on the flip side, I, you know, I desperately want to be.

Tyler Glenn [01:02:16] To move past that pain, but I think you need to be patient with yourself, I think, is what I'm trying to say. I think especially, like I said, I think I thought I was in the clear. You know, I. Around the end of 2015, when I began my journey out, you know, and technically, I'm still on the record, so it's like I didn't get excommunicated, as though some people think I. I didn't leave the church technically, in a. In a record sense. I have no need to either. I. For me, it was like the minute I knew that it wasn't true, and I truly let myself know that that's when I began the work of reading everything and looking everything, looking at everything.

Tyler Glenn [01:03:04] It takes time. I speak from a different experience, being raised Mormon, but knowing I was gay the whole time and being told, for much of my Mormon experience, a narrative and a message that had nothing to do with me or my values or who I am as a gay man.

Tyler Glenn [01:03:26] There was no. There was no plan for me. There was no salvation for me. And I know that there's recent smudging and recent reinterpretations on websites and in handbooks, but it's all there. And the trauma inflicted by the system, especially on the LGBT community, is one that they, you know, a day of reckoning is upon us. And I think for me, I, you know, I. I love the Mormon people, and that's the truth. It's like my parents will always be Mormon, even though they, too, have realized that.

Tyler Glenn [01:04:08] That it was sort of a. A fraud. I think it takes a long time, and obviously, I have. I have emotion when I speak about it. You know, I look out my window, I can see Temple Square still.

Tyler Glenn [01:04:25] Staying in Salt Lake was always like a. Should I be here? Should I be surrounded by it all the time? But I. I just think, give yourself some slack and. And if you can, take. Take the power back. You know, I think to give so much power and stock to something that was.

Tyler Glenn [01:04:47] That's essentially a fantasy blown way out of proportion, you know, like, don't. Don't give so much power to something. But I understand, like, it's. Everyone's trauma is different. Everyone's journey out of it's different. But there's also greater tools ahead of you outside of. Because we're still human beings, at the end of the day, we still have to exist in this world that also is screwed up.

Tyler Glenn [01:05:14] And so I think for me, moving past just the trappings of Mormonism or ex Mormonism has helped me. And so it's not necessarily abandoning everything I knew and throwing the baby without out with the bath water, but if you have to do that for a time to get some balance, I encourage you to do so. You know, if. If looking at Reddit and, and texting your ex Mormon friends and living and only going to ex Mormon events and feeling like surrounded by pain and anger is actually going to be not good and not validating, then don't do that for a while, but be patient with yourself, you know, because one truth that I do know is that we do only have one life on.

Tyler Glenn [01:06:01] On this earth and I don't have any idea what the afterlife looks like. So I don't want to. I don't want to waste my days on something that never had space for me in the first place. That's my sort of. Maybe it's blunt, but I. This is sort of my M.O. with it.

John Dehlin [01:06:21] Beautiful. Thanks, Tyler. Paul, how do we overcome the conditioning that there's no joy and happiness after Mormonism for those who felt like they needed to leave?

Paul Cardall [01:06:32] Well, I kind of feel like the term happiness is used in the context of mental or emotional states and everybody is different when it comes to that. And like Tyler just mentioned, you know, as a gay man in Mormonism, that messes with you mentally because you're told you can not have an eternal marriage, and yet, you know, I've got a. My friend that was gay that committed suicide. All he wanted was a covenant relationship. And my other friend, who was a heterosexual, had a covenant relationship, but consistently cheated on his wife and ended up committing suicide.

Paul Cardall [01:07:12] So it's such a weird dynamic when you draw these lines. And, you know, I. I can look to a space within Mormonism where, you know, my childhood was very loving. I have parents who are incredibly wise and, you know, they're deep in, and they are faithful and loyal, and I have to take a step back and have this overwhelming love and compassion for them and admiration because it, it works within the context of what they've created, and it was beautiful for me. But I would say that happiness was really not about the religion. It was about two parents who cared for each other, not leaving each other and taking care of us and creating great memories.

Paul Cardall [01:08:01] And then we progress and we move on and we have these experiences in our life. And I think These relationships where you're engaged in helping each other and serving people, you're going to find purpose and meaning. That's why it's going to be true, is because you're doing good for other people. But when we get to this concept of who can do it and who can't do it, that is not Christianity. That is what Christ was fighting against and telling them, look, this is all breaking it all down. You know, you don't need these middlemen. Come to me and me alone. And so I think it's a matter of perspective, of what happiness is.

Paul Cardall [01:08:47] And, you know, there's all these analogies, joy versus happiness and, But I think the bottom line is in every great tale, you know, every great story, you go on a grand adventure. You do not know what is, what is ahead of you. You're hopeful that it will be interesting and unique and you try to plan it out, but life happens for you and it's, it's this grand adventure.

Paul Cardall [01:09:16] And I think it's just a matter of perspective. And when you change your perspective, for me, when I've changed it to, I now wake up and I go, God, I don't even know what you got planned today. I can tell you what I got planned, but I'm really excited just to breathe, just to, you know, be alive, to have a, somebody else's heart working inside of me so that I can just continue to enjoy this beautiful world that is complex, that is painful, that is joyful, that people have quit on. And I don't understand, you know, because I fought my entire life to survive, and yet I have so much compassion because I get it, I get it.

Paul Cardall [01:09:57] I've had those desires as well, to just quit. But I've fought too much to, to live. And, and there is more joy. There really is. There's the, the freedom that exists when you don't have to, when you can do things naturally, the way God intended. Rather than a list. There's a lot more purpose led purpose in your, in your life. At least, at least for me.

John Dehlin [01:10:31] Love it. Thanks, Paul. All right, Tyler, this one's for you. Charles Amador writes, I'd like to know if Mr. Glenn is still in touch with any former missionary companions from his believer days. Thank you.

Relationships, Family, and Moving Forward

Tyler Glenn [01:10:49] You know, I, I, I use the, the term in touch lightly. If you count, you know, Instagram likes or the occ, you know, story dm. Then there's, there's one Elder Reaper lush. I haven't seen him in a while.

Tyler Glenn [01:11:14] You know, the others there, I have fond memories of certain people on my mission. I have fond memories of certain families, I think. On the flip side, it was sad when I actually, when I came out as gay, not even leaving the church because I came out as gay and then, and then stayed sort of in as a gay Mormon for a couple years after. And I, it was sad, you know, the Nebraska Omaha Mission Facebook page back in 2014 or whatever, it was really sad to read a bunch of like unaffirming comments, if you will.

Tyler Glenn [01:11:55] I, I definitely think once I spit on Joseph Smith's face, I burned a bridge. But I have a lot of really compassionate people from Nebraska that still reach out, that still follow, you know, And I, you know, it's so strange because you serve a two year mission and you baptize people and you spend so much time converting and also converting yourself and it's your coming of age experience. So I, it's actually one of the things I don't, I don't even know if regrets the term, but that I don't necessarily want to erase from my life because it was my coming of age for better, for worse.

Tyler Glenn [01:12:42] And I, the things I can take from that experience, although it was totally weird when you look at it and contextualize it in a, in a sort of normal way, I, I came of age, I got sort of a social backbone. I got, I got time and space in my head. Walking the flat streets of Nebraska in the winter, I just got to think a lot and I am very cerebral. I'm always in my head and I got to, I got to kind of turn off being Tyler Glenn, the weirdo with the weird hair in high school, and I got to just like assimilate and that was kind of nice for a couple of years.

Tyler Glenn [01:13:30] So, long story short, there are a few people that keep in touch and I, I should do better. I think we both probably feel the same way, but I, I know that there are people that still follow my story and care about me and that means a ton, you know. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:49] Thank you. Since you mentioned the, the, the Trash video, there's a question from Marshall Bond 2020. He writes for Tyler. Any regrets on some of the imagery in some of your music videos? He says, thinking particularly of the Trash video, he says, I, I totally get that art needs to be expressive and challenge boundaries. I'm just wondering if hurt feelings of any of your believing friends and family has impacted you in some ways. And then he writes, P.S. shameless is now our personal favorite. So any, any thoughts on, on that? Any regrets?

Tyler Glenn [01:14:27] Not at all. No, not at all. You know, and I think that any of the hurt feelings that did exist, you know, I think about my family, you know, and I don't, I don't want to speak beyond just experience, but I, you know, there was some pain within, just, you know, within, within the people that mattered to me in my circle.

Tyler Glenn [01:14:51] And when I challenged them, like, even in my band, you know, like, half of my band is still lds. But we have a show tonight, a virtual stream. It's like we're, I think, hurt and challenge and pain. If it, if it, if it's coming to the table for a conversation and learning and patience, I think it only provides space to grow, you know, and so I have no regret. I know.

Tyler Glenn [01:15:21] And to be honest, that was authentically me. I, I, I was just, I was in it. I was feeling every ounce of my, of everything you can feel when, when you're sort of going through something like that. So, no, I would never regret that. Pure, that pure rawness. And what I did wasn't, it may have offended people that were believing in something that was sort of made up, but that's, you know, I, I didn't do anything wrong. I actually did something that was very cathartic and important, me. And, and if it ruffled feathers or made people uncomfortable, then, then, you know, that's kind of on them.

Tyler Glenn [01:16:06] But, you know, it wasn't set out to hurt. It was actually set out to, to free myself. You know, that video and those subsequent videos, if I could see if you believe in, you know, certain things and, and, and it can, it can be jarring. But I, I don't, I don't consider what I did blasphemous or sacrilegious because it, it's, it's fraudulent.

John Dehlin [01:16:36] So thanks, Tyler. I'll start with this one with you, Paul. And then, Tyler, I think you may have a response to Enos Needed Coffee again on ex Mormon Reddit. These are names are great. He writes, how do you deal with loved ones feeling like you're lost, knowing you're going to forever look broken to them? So, Paul, do you, do you have loved ones viewing you now that you feel like you've really healed and even grown loved ones thinking you're broken and lost? How do you deal with that? And then, Tyler, I'll have you answer after Paul.

Paul Cardall [01:17:15] Well, I mean, I have a question for you, John.

Paul Cardall [01:17:17] I mean, you're a, you're, you're a psychologist. What is it about Mormons writing letters instead of calling you on the phone? Why do we write letters. Are we writing epistles? Are we Alma and Ammon?

John Dehlin [01:17:34] What.

Paul Cardall [01:17:34] I mean, do we not have the guts to pick. I got a letter from a relative that I have a relationship with, but not like a daily relationship, telling me that I'd become successful, I'd become successful and made some money. And what that then does is make you have an ego, and you basically ego out.

Paul Cardall [01:17:57] You become too prosperous in the land for keeping the commandments. And I know that's not what that scripture actually implies, but my answer back was, now I understand the dynamics of why money's always been a sensitive issue in our. Our family. And, you know, this was an extended family member, but, yeah, I mean, for the most part, everyone's been very respectful and kind.

Paul Cardall [01:18:26] And yet I know that it is frustrating for family because they are committed and they do believe. But the bottom line is I've always been the subject of different because, you know, I'm not gay, but I. I was born with half a heart. And President Hunter gave me a blessing, and in the blessing said I would live to be a man.

Paul Cardall [01:18:54] And my entire childhood was revolved around that message. So I was drawn to President Hunter, who I. Ironically, I think maybe that's part of why I'm so. Why I like Jesus so much is because he never really talked about anything but Jesus, but he gave me a blessing. So I was always kind of this side, like. I don't want to say like this freak show, but I was the. I was the person, the man, the. The blind man that was healed, the leper, the woman at the well, the. I was this person that, you know, I. I didn't choose that.

Paul Cardall [01:19:35] I. I arrived with it. Do I know what it's like to not have that? I don't know. I don't know. So. But Mormonism helped define why I had that and gave me purpose. But with family now, it's, you know, we'll see.

Paul Cardall [01:19:56] We'll see how it goes. I have quite a few siblings that are actually out. And yet, you know, it's. It's a difficult predicament because you love your parents so much, and my parents are incredible. And it's very. You know, I think everybody understands this whole concept of dealing with family, but I think for us, the best thing we can do is have compassion and just take it.

Paul Cardall [01:20:27] I mean, just take it. I mean, there. Until the veil is removed from their eyes, until they have their own spiritual awakening and. And, you know, read. I mean, it's just

John Dehlin [01:20:46] really.

Paul Cardall [01:20:46] There's no words for any of this, that's why I did an album to express it through music and, and some

Paul Cardall [01:20:52] lyrics, you know, that, that it hurts, but, you know.

Paul Cardall [01:20:58] Yeah, it's not that the church. It's not. I'm not hurt that the church is wrong or that it's a fraud.

Paul Cardall [01:21:05] I'm hurt that

Paul Cardall [01:21:08] we love our beliefs ahead of. If, if you love your children based on their beliefs, then you love your beliefs more than your children. Powerful words.

Paul Cardall [01:21:25] That's what's hard, man.

John Dehlin [01:21:27] Yeah. How about you, Tyler? Have you had to deal with people thinking you're lost and fallen family or friends and, and how have you dealt with that?

Tyler Glenn [01:21:38] I think, I think for some, for a good part of my life, I've always. I'm used to that. I'm used to being, you know, even. Even before I was known in my band or music or whatever, I, I, you know, a lot of it has to do with the fact that, you know, I won't put soul blame on the church. I think culture in general hasn't. Has come a very, it's been taken a very, very long time to affirm anything queer. And if you are getting something in, in culture, you know, it was caricatures of a gay life or, you know, you were set up to only have, you know, so much.

Tyler Glenn [01:22:34] There was a. There was a very low bar on where you could go, what you could do. And I know things have changed, but for me, it's like I always kind of felt like everyone was like a little side eye and a little. Not everyone. There's been amazing people that have affirmed me in my life and.

Tyler Glenn [01:22:52] But so I think when it comes to the church, you know, I agree with Paul when he says there's really. It's hard to come find words or like a distinct, a succinct answer because it's like, that's why I think we've turned to music to, to sort of get those feelings out.

Tyler Glenn [01:23:15] I just think being patient. What's beautiful about my story five years later is that I do now have a talking relationship with my older brother that at one point unfriended me from Facebook. And we had a very, like, kind of up and down a couple years.

Tyler Glenn [01:23:36] We don't have the same relationship, but I actually think that's healthier because I think living in the truth and meeting people where they're at is the best. That's my. That's the best. Because I think when we force people to instantly meet you, meet that, meet you. What am I trying to say? When we force people to Instantly come to where you are.

Tyler Glenn [01:24:01] That's impossible because think about your own, your own self. No one really wants to be told what to do. And when it comes to beliefs, people really, really cherish them. Especially within the Mormon religion because we're were conditioned, we're messaged, we're wired to protect at all costs this key, the truth, you know. So for me I think it's being patient. My parents the first year or so were very, I felt on, you know, my mom hated when I first put out the video for Trash. We had very uncomfortable conversations. We had a lot of non conversations and a lot was said in, in between seeing each other and it took a few years and I think I can look at it now and at least for my family and my friends, I became a source of comfort when they all of a sudden had questions.

Tyler Glenn [01:24:58] And if you. It's very difficult to, to be othered and to be the black sheep or to be the one that people have pity on. But I think as you feel confident and more secure in the things that you've discovered, you know, radiate that by being stoic in your, in your life and, and using that to prop yourself up and, and achieve new things. And I understand, I, I hate being the guy five years later going like just give it time like saying these cliches because I didn't want to hear that five years ago, three years ago.

Tyler Glenn [01:25:41] But you know, something I've learned about life is cliches are there for a reason. There's time does heal wounds. The people that truly love you are gonna ride with you. The people that leave you, you might be better off not, not having them in your life. And I am just so about calling it what it is and not beating about around the bush anymore and not doing any more jumping through hoops. And at least for me, that's giving me freedom. So be patient and you know, if wear it as a scarlet, wear it as a badge of honor. I don't know, like it makes you more interesting. I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:26:29] Leaving the church is so rock and roll. It's punk rock, right? It's punk rock, sure. On that line, I've got a great question from Marshall Bond 2020. He writes for both of you from your vantage points in the music industry. It's a two part question. So number one, is the church hemorrhaging more artistic types? You know, kind of on average. So either of you have any perspective on whether the Mormon church seems to be hemorrhaging its artists?

Art, Creativity, and Faith Transitions

Tyler Glenn [01:27:02] Well, I don't know what they're doing.

Paul Cardall [01:27:06] What they're doing is they're spending a lot of money to prop up BYU Television with programming that allows them to look and feel very Christian. Tyler's bandmate and I went on the show Grace Notes and it's an amazing show. Elaine is an amazing host.

Paul Cardall [01:27:32] It's like.

Paul Cardall [01:27:34] But now they're inviting all my friends that live out here in Nashville that I now go to non denominational churches like Lauren Daigle, Matt Hammett, Torren, all these Christian artists that are big in the gospel music scene that, you know, we used to say in the LDS music industry that we're not embraced. But when I was in that LDS music scene, I thought it was because they didn't accept us. They didn't. And when I got out to Nashville, it was, we hadn't written anything that was good enough for and we hadn't spent any money to actually get on Christian radio. And that was the bottom line.

Paul Cardall [01:28:20] It was about just business, a business model and money.

Paul Cardall [01:28:25] So now you have BYU that's propping up Christian artists. Because then when you're watching TV and you see TBN 700 Club, Joel Osteen, BYUtv, you are seeing Christian artists. So you pause and you go, oh, wait a second, it's byu. Oh, they're Christian. They're Christian. Okay, so you know the definition of Christianity, you know, that's a whole nother podcast.

Paul Cardall [01:28:54] But the bottom line is the LDS market is kind of shrinking as. Because the Internet affords musicians to do LDS music but treat it for everybody. I never treated my hymn albums like they were from Mormons. That's why people in Iraq buy the music. That's why there's more people in Egypt than Provo streaming my version of Joseph Smith's First Prayer because it's.

Paul Cardall [01:29:26] I just treated it like it was universal and not for those drinking the Kool Aid, you know, so. But again, Utah has produced more, more people dominating the classical Billboard charts than any state in, in the United States. In the United States, there are more artists dominating those charts and then like artists that evolved bands out of Provo. I mean it's crazy the amount of talent that evolved and everybody has a tie to Mormonism and, and there's one thing that as Mormons that we've been really good at is, is pyramid marketing and making sure people know about everything.

Paul Cardall [01:30:22] Maybe Tyler has more on, on that since he was actually in that the rock and roll scene, which I wanted to be in, but I wasn't cool enough. I wore my Tie and played at the roof restaurant and earned tips and then it evolved into doing more.

John Dehlin [01:30:42] Tyler, your, your, your response to that question.

Tyler Glenn [01:30:48] Yeah, I mean, I, I suppose it is. I think, you know, and I, I also want to tread lightly because I think like, you know, Elaine, you mentioned Elaine in my band, you know, we've been on a, on a journey together, accepting each other and meeting each other at the table because she, she's extremely Mormon and conservative and Christian.

Tyler Glenn [01:31:16] And yet I think we just know, we just meet each other and see past those things. I, I got to see her this week. It's been a, it's been a very long time. We haven't been able to play. She lives in Germany and we're getting together for a thing tonight for a Covid friendly virtual stream. But she, she's an artist, you know, so when I say, you know, I don't want to just classify the, the ones that appear to be artists or artistic, you know, I think there's people that are, that are artistic, that remain in the church, are able to sort of cherry pick and, you know, I have my personal feelings about people sort of calling it Mormon 2.0 or whatever they want to do.

Tyler Glenn [01:31:59] Like, I, you know, I'm more like interested in like the church purging the youth. I think, I think the, the youth is. I, I think that's the, that's why we're seeing, you know, messaging change. That's why social media has become so important to the church. That's why you kind of are really seeing the pr. The scenes of the PR system.

Tyler Glenn [01:32:26] So, you know, I don't know. I don't really have a definitive answer. I, I would, I'd venture to say, say that those that are really taking an artistic journey and starting and trying to push themselves, eventually maybe they just come to the conclusion that, like, that this isn't, that this is probably not sustainable. But. Yeah, I don't know. I guess I know, but that's just kind of what I think.

John Dehlin [01:32:50] Yeah. Yeah. I guess as I'm thinking about that question, I mean, we've had Angela Sofa and Mormon Stories. We've had Sarah Sample, we've had Mindy Gledhill, we've had Wayne Sermon. I don't know if Dan Reynolds has been public or not about his journey, but, you know, with confirmation bias, you would see a lot of these artists and you, Tyler, and you would. And Paul and you would say, wow, it seems like there's a flood of people leaving. But then I know that I'm pretty sure that braided flowers is still very orthodox and believing. And. And I'm sure there's many more that I don't know or aren't on top of mind, so it kind of doesn't matter.

John Dehlin [01:33:29] I like this idea of, like, if it works for you, great, and if it doesn't, great. And there are artists leaving, there's probably artists staying. But I do sometimes wonder if there's something about the artist disposition or mentality that might make them a little bit more susceptible to a faith crisis or a faith journey than. Than a non artist. But I guess that would just be speculation.

Paul Cardall [01:33:51] Can I say something about art in general? Because I think, you know, anyone who tours the Vatican and sees the history of art within the Catholic confines of art can plainly see the way Mormonism

Paul Cardall [01:34:08] is taught through our art.

Paul Cardall [01:34:10] You know, now you have all these debates about paintings of Joseph Smith translating plates, and now you've got the hat added, and then you have the hat to the side, the plates to the side, you have a curtain drawn. But I remember there's only one person that ever mentioned there was a curtain, but for so long paintings had curtains. So what happens is members create art and they promote it.

Paul Cardall [01:34:40] And without actually reading content, like reading actual content, like, a lot of the art that I see, you know, about the Book of Mormon is not in the context of what the Book of Mormon is saying or even the Bible. The way they create, you know, like Noah and the ark, you start to see like.

Paul Cardall [01:35:01] And there's memes, like the dinosaurs. There's two dinosaurs standing on the rock and they're like, oh, is that today? So when we see art, we're taught in such a powerful way that I think art has a much bigger influence than the actual sermons that are like a PowerPoint presentation at a parliament.

Paul Cardall [01:35:30] And so you have all this art being projected. Movies, you know, and the movies of Jesus are continually changing. More and more people of ethnic background are being put into films and they're trying to make it more accurate. And so. So be careful when you see art.

Paul Cardall [01:35:53] Is that the true historical moment? Take the first vision visitation. You know, even back then, art tells the truth. If you go back and you look at the art from the 1838 on and how it evolved in telling the story, you'll learn that when President Hinckley was in charge of all that creating all the film scripts and the slideshows and everything, you see a lot of that race division. And, you know, Jesus is a very European God and all these things. And so that's what you're. You think Nephi, you know, works out at Vasa because he's so buff in all the Arnold Freeberg paintings. And so that's.

Paul Cardall [01:36:45] Every young woman wants to date a Nephi. So art is really interesting and unique. And, you know, what really kept me in was Afterglow, Kenneth Cope, Michael McClain. I mean, I was drawing on that because I was so desperate to feel the spirit. Michael McClane enabled me to feel such strong emotion. And I love Michael.

Paul Cardall [01:37:13] Pray for Michael. He's got some health issues and just, I mean, all these people that have had such a big impact on me, influence on me. You know, I remember sitting down with Kurt Bester and going, dude, how did

Paul Cardall [01:37:31] you get the opportunity to write the Endowment score?

Paul Cardall [01:37:34] Like, Mozart never got the chance to

Paul Cardall [01:37:37] write, you know, he got to write for Popes. And I was like belittling because I was that kind of priesthood Mormon.

Paul Cardall [01:37:45] And you got to do this.

Paul Cardall [01:37:46] Oh, man, what a dream come true.

Paul Cardall [01:37:49] And you look back now and it's like Kurt is so much happier outside

Paul Cardall [01:37:57] than when he was inside. And I'm not going to speak for

Paul Cardall [01:38:00] Kurt, but you know what I mean? Like, everybody loves Captain Moroni. Oh, my gosh, what woman? What man doesn't want to date that guy, you know?

Paul Cardall [01:38:09] So anyways, there's my rant on art.

John Dehlin [01:38:15] Do you want to add anything to that?

Paul Cardall [01:38:17] Tyler?

Tyler Glenn [01:38:18] That was beautiful.

John Dehlin [01:38:19] Okay. All right. Beautiful. All right, well, I want to end really quick, Paul, by talking about the album in the book. But before we do, Tyler, there's so many of our listeners. There's so many comments I get. Can't include them all. There's so many questions. I can't include them all. You've been so generous with your time and your art has been so important. Not just your art, but your lived example has been so important to me and to just hundreds of thousands of listeners and Latter Day Saints and LGBTQ Mormons and non Mormons and ex Mormons and never Mormons. I guess I just want to end, Tyler, with.

Final Thoughts and Messages to LGBTQ Youth

John Dehlin [01:39:04] With my portion with you. Just asking like any. Any final words that you want to share with with our listeners? With any LGBTQ youth, trans youth, gender, non binary youth, gay, lesbian youth, hetero youth, whoever, young, old. Any final messages you want to leave? And then just as a follow up, if people want to support you or follow you, what. What can they do? Those are a few final questions for you when you've been so generous with us with your time.

Tyler Glenn [01:39:35] Yeah, I mean, I would say. I would say I've definitely Probably said everything that I. From my heart throughout this last hour, hour and a half, but to just reinstate that, that I think it's important to think about something bigger than yourself. But if right now in your life, all you can do is take care of yourself and find strength and power within, I think that's an important time in your life to do so. Because you know what I realize every day is I'm with myself all the time, and if I loathe myself or I distract myself from everything and I don't really sit with my stuff, years can pass and all of a sudden you go, what was that for?

Tyler Glenn [01:40:44] I think we have a lot more power. And I'll speak specifically to the LGBTQ community. Take the power back. I don't, you know, I don't want to like, you know, sort of like paint us as these, as these extra special people, but at the same time, there are special qualities as queer people and insight as queer people that we have that others just don't, and use that to your. To your advantage as you walk through this life and use it for.

Tyler Glenn [01:41:24] Pay attention to that insight and that intuition and that, you know, for so long as a Mormon, I was told that the Holy Spirit of the Holy Ghost was those feelings. I now know that it all resided in me, that core intuition. And, and when you spend time getting to know that and getting to know yourself and how you tick, you can only better help the world or better help the people around you.

Tyler Glenn [01:41:52] And as LGBTQ people, even though that I have appeared emotional today on the podcast, I appear emotional in times in other interviews because to me, that's how I feel about, especially about things that have been traumatic in my life.

Paul Cardall [01:42:12] We.

Tyler Glenn [01:42:12] We need to. We need to lift ourselves up and not be the sad and broken ones. The amount of time that I reach that I'm faced with people coming at me with sad looks on their face and sort of like, I know they come from, from care and from empathy, but I am a powerful person and I. And you are, you are as well. And I think we need to lift each other up and, and live in our power and, and use it for good and use it for growth and community. So as. As best as you can continually make steps forward to moving on from pain and anger, validate it, because anger and things that make you uncomfortable are just as valid as things that make you happy.

Tyler Glenn [01:43:07] But if you can just every day try. This year has been one of the greatest challenges since leaving the church. For me, because my self worth at times, it's dipped to all time lows. But I can live as a 37 year old and not a 34, 3 year old or a 35 year old that I've. That I have new tools in my tool chest to get through it.

Tyler Glenn [01:43:36] It's never worth taking your life. It's never worth giving up. And I also have to consider as I speak that I come from immense privilege in the fact that I have shelter and funds and a platform and I get to do what I love and I'm good at for a living.

Tyler Glenn [01:43:59] So anyone listening that doesn't have that currently or doesn't have an affirming space, please don't hear my words as flippant or as general. But if you can know that you're powerful and know that you have worth. But yeah, I'm glad. Thank you so much for letting me share all that and also share this song.

Tyler Glenn [01:44:26] I'm so grateful that Paul ended up including me and it's a really, it's a special song to me to have in my personal catalog of music out in the public as well beyond everything that it has to do with. But yeah, thank you beautiful Tyler.

Upcoming Projects and Where to Find the Music

John Dehlin [01:44:44] And for the Tyler Glenn Neon, you know, trees or trees fans, I think you referred to them.

Paul Cardall [01:44:50] Any.

John Dehlin [01:44:50] Anything you want to say about what's going on with the trees?

Tyler Glenn [01:44:53] Yeah, we put an album out only six months ago. I know that that feels like nine years, but it's only been six months and the minute we can go play live, we will and we're working on more music and yeah, I just appreciate everyone writing with, with me and with my band and with everything I've gotten to do, it's. It's never lost on me that I, I'm able to have an audience that's amazing. So.

John Dehlin [01:45:22] And tell us the name of the. Oh, go ahead, go ahead.

Tyler Glenn [01:45:25] I was gonna say you can see us all on neon trees on all social media. Tyler in a coma is my nickname on most of my social media. So reach out.

John Dehlin [01:45:36] And the name of the new album is.

Tyler Glenn [01:45:38] The new album is called I can feel you forgetting me and it came out in July and it was our first. It's our first album in six years and I'm intensely proud of it and as though, even though I know that people were like, you're ever gonna write an album that has to do with the things on excommunication. Everything I write is always going to have a piece of me. So this Neon Trees record is definitely a post Mormon, Tyler. You know, it's, it's, it's taking everything I've learned, and so I hope it. It sues and is a bomb just as much as anything else would be that. That I've done. So, anyway, I really appreciate it.

John Dehlin [01:46:24] Beautiful. Thank you, Tyler. Thank you so much. All right, Paul, tell us about. Just. Just tell us one more time. Quickly. Tell us about the book and the album.

Paul Cardall [01:46:34] Sure.

John Dehlin [01:46:34] So that those who want to follow your amazing stuff can. Can support you.

Paul Cardall [01:46:38] Well, I have to. I do have to say that, you know, mess me up. Tyler, on the new Neon Trees record

Paul Cardall [01:46:45] is one of my favorite pieces. It's so well done.

Tyler Glenn [01:46:49] Thank you.

Paul Cardall [01:46:50] I'm just.

Paul Cardall [01:46:51] I'm just always in awe that the fact that. Here we are. Tyler.

Paul Cardall [01:46:56] You know, John, everything you guys are doing is so inspiring to me in my journey.

Paul Cardall [01:47:04] Do you know that? The Broken Miracle. This is the. This is the book. Got a little piano.

Paul Cardall [01:47:09] There's Mount Olympus for those that know Mount Olympus.

Paul Cardall [01:47:13] And really, it's about me and my brother.

Paul Cardall [01:47:16] My brother had mental illness and came home from his mission. He was the first to. To, you know, remove himself from going to church. And really, it was his exploration of knowing that he had deeper purpose and meaning outside. And he would joke with me, and there's a scene where he says, you know, you like to go sit on a dead tree and hear somebody talk from a dead tree instead of going out and being among the living trees to actually feel God.

Paul Cardall [01:47:57] And so the events that transpire in the book is the story of one who's very religious and is a. You can see his illness on an X ray. And the other person is spiritual, but doesn't necessarily enjoy organized religion and finds himself on the outside, and yet he's got an illness you cannot see.

Paul Cardall [01:48:26] And so it's our journey about, you know, what it's like to be moths and butterflies. Butterflies. Everybody's like, oh, they're so beautiful. They. They're in the. You know, we all want to be butterflies, and yet moths actually outlive butterflies.

Paul Cardall [01:48:42] They can thrive in the darkness, but, you know, they're obsessed with the light, but if they get too close to the light, it always gets them in trouble. But I'm a moth. Moths are misfits, outcasts. So this is a novel for the outcast, for the misfit, for anyone who's ever felt unworthy, unloved, not accepted.

Paul Cardall [01:49:05] And how. How life just kind of on. On kind of takes a flip on it, you know, Takes a flip on it, like a spiritual awakening.

Paul Cardall [01:49:15] And of course, this is just part one and.

Paul Cardall [01:49:20] And Then part two will come out later. And then of course the album is out today. It's out today.

John Dehlin [01:49:27] And, and tell us, tell us some of the other artists that are on the album in addition to the amazing Tyler Glenn.

Paul Cardall [01:49:33] So Thompson Square, they're a Grammy nominated country duo. They sing a song called are you gonna kiss me or not?

Paul Cardall [01:49:41] Tyler obviously the handsome guy right there next to him is Ty Herndon, country artist.

Paul Cardall [01:49:47] He was the first to come out there was a Grammy nominated country artist.

Paul Cardall [01:49:54] We have a song on there called

Paul Cardall [01:49:55] Some kind of Wonderful. Rachel Yamagata who is, you know, I saw her on tour with Ray Lamontagne. Her voice is like butter. I mean just amazing. And David Archuleta, he sings my heart beats for you. And David and I have done a lot together and he's fantastic on this record. It's nice to have you know him on there. And.

Paul Cardall [01:50:17] And then Jay Daniel is a big R B artist. He sings this song called we could

Paul Cardall [01:50:23] be kind with Akili and the Virginia Union all black Gospel Choir. It's one of the biggest, biggest gospel pieces on the record. And Matt Hammett who is a, used to be in the band Saint this real and toured all over with Mercy Me and a lot of Christian bands and big fan of Neon Trees. And he was, in fact he was just on grace notes and him and Elaine became friends and he just loves Elaine. And then Trevor Price who was a local Salt Lake City artist that has engineered and produced, I mean six of my number one records. And so he has a song that called Change. And that song Change is about my, my breakup with Mormonism. People think it's about my ex wife, but it's not. It's. It's about something else.

John Dehlin [01:51:18] So Paul, do people buy CDs or albums these days or is it all spotified? How does, how does the music industry industry work these days?

Paul Cardall [01:51:25] Well, you know, you ask Alexa or Siri to, to play it, but for the most part people are still buying my physical CDs. We in fact Desert Book is carrying this CD. They're being supportive and they have the

Tyler Glenn [01:51:41] book

Paul Cardall [01:51:43] and so that's nice. And

Paul Cardall [01:51:47] so yeah, I mean a lot

Paul Cardall [01:51:48] of people still have CDs. I don't know if they have cassette. There's no cassettes.

Paul Cardall [01:51:51] But some people in the rap business

Paul Cardall [01:51:52] are making cassettes vinyl.

Paul Cardall [01:51:55] But this one for now we just

Paul Cardall [01:51:56] have CD download and you can ask Alexa or Siri to, to play it and.

John Dehlin [01:52:01] Okay.

Paul Cardall [01:52:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:52:03] So if people want to support you, do they just go to thebrokenmiracle.com Amazon. What do you want people to do?

Paul Cardall [01:52:09] Well, you can go to brokenmiracle.com.

Paul Cardall [01:52:12] in fact, you can get the first three chapters for free if you just. If you subscribe. You just take it for a test drive.

Paul Cardall [01:52:20] But the album, this song, you do have to get.

Paul Cardall [01:52:22] I know it hurts. It's. I can't believe I was involved.

John Dehlin [01:52:28] Yeah, it is. It is epic. Beautiful, powerful. Healing. Healing.

Paul Cardall [01:52:37] You can do that.

Paul Cardall [01:52:38] Yes, it is very healing.

John Dehlin [01:52:41] All right, well, Paul Cardall and Tyler Glenn, I. I respect you both. I adore you both. Tyler, I will always think of you as one of the most caring, loyal, thoughtful humans I've ever had the privilege to know. Giving. So, Tyler, it's so good to see you again, and I'm so glad you're hanging in there, and I'm grateful for your resilience, and I'm moved and honored that I got. I got to see you again on Mormon Stories podcast. I can't thank you enough for coming back and for doing this great work for others, so thank you. Oh, wait, you're muted. Go ahead, Tyler. Sorry.

Tyler Glenn [01:53:34] I was just saying thank you, John.

John Dehlin [01:53:37] No.

Paul Cardall [01:53:37] All right.

John Dehlin [01:53:38] And good luck tonight with your performance. It's great to see the trees back, and I hope you guys have. Have great, great things ahead of you.

Tyler Glenn [01:53:46] Yeah, I can't wait till we can do what we do again, but I appreciate that. Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:53:50] All right, Tyler, great to see you. And Paul Cardall, you're awesome. It's great to have gotten to know you a bit and know your heart, your old and new heart a little bit more. And I wish you all the best with the book, with. With the album, and with all your future endeavors. Thanks for standing up for truth and giving people an idea that there's healing and growth and change. So thanks for doing that.

Paul Cardall [01:54:17] You're welcome. Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:54:19] All right, brethren, it's been fun. You guys take care. Okay?

Tyler Glenn [01:54:23] Thanks, everyone.

Closing Remarks and Listener Thanks

John Dehlin [01:54:25] All right. And listeners, thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories podcast. It's been so great. Want to thank everyone who has tuned in and who has shared your comments and questions. If you support us, thank you so much. Your. Your contributions make everything we do possible.

John Dehlin [01:54:46] So thank you. If you don't donate or support us, you know, less than one out of a thousand of my. My listeners or supporters contribute. So if you want to see programming like this contribution continue, we would love your support. If you go to MormonStories.org and click on the donate button at the top of the page, you can become a monthly donor and.

John Dehlin [01:55:08] And for as long as we have support. As long as I have support, I'll keep making episodes and interviews and creating content on YouTube and elsewhere to support people who are looking to heal and grow. So please support us if you can. There are other ways to support us as well. Spreading, spreading the word. Sharing these interviews. Liking us. Following us on YouTube, following us on on Facebook. Giving us positive reviews on our Facebook page or on the Apple podcast app.

John Dehlin [01:55:41] Following us everywhere. Sharing, spreading the word. Giving us feedback@mormustoriesmail.com just thank you for your support. Support us if you can. And please support Tyler, Glenn and Neon Trees. Please support Paul Cardall and all our artists because we have to support artists if we want to see them do well. So please, please support Paul and Tyler and just stay in touch. Love you guys. Grateful for the fact that I get to do that I get to do this work and grateful for Gerardo who's helped with with our studio, the audio and the video. Gerardo has done great work.

John Dehlin [01:56:19] Thank you so much. Thanks to the Open Stories foundation board and you know, Clint and Carrie and for everyone who's who's made this possible. Brooklyn Alden has been doing amazing work for me as an editor and as a producer and I want to thank Brooklyn as well and you guys just thanks, thanks for all you do. Thanks for your comments and questions. If you have feedback or ideas, please share them because I just want to do good work until I can't do it anymore.

John Dehlin [01:56:47] And I wish you guys healing and growth in your journeys, Mormon or not Mormon. Thanks for all you guys. Do love you guys and please tune in again soon for more Mormon stories in the months and years ahead. Take care everybody. We'll see you guys soon.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.