Introduction and Episode Overview

Part 1 of 3 · Ep. 389

Guest [00:00:00] 1, 2, 3.

John Dehlin [00:00:07] Mormon Stories Podcast is a production of the Open Stories Foundation. All donations to Mormon Stories are fully tax deductible and go directly towards keeping the podcast alive and towards building a community of support for Mormons like you. To support the podcast or to join the community, please become a monthly subscriber today@mormonstories.org hello and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I am your host, John Dehlin, and today we have a very exciting discussion planned. Today I have with me Natasha Helfer Parker. Natasha is known to the Mormon world, or Mormondom as the Mormon Therapist. Her blog is on Patheos. If you want the URL, it's patheos.com blogs mormontherapist. But Natasha has been a licensed marriage and family therapist for 15 years. Is that right, Natasha?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:01:06] Yeah, something like that.

John Dehlin [00:01:08] And she's been helping out with Mormon Matters and Mormon Stories and the Open Stories foundation for several years. She's on the board of the Open Stories Foundation. And we're excited to announce that Natasha is going to be leading her own podcast called Mormon Mental health. And the URL is mormonmentalhealth.org and Natasha's going to come out with, you know, one or two episodes a month. That's the plan for now. And she's going to cover lots and lots of issues dealing with mental health. And she's just a great person. So, Natasha, welcome to Mormon Stories Podcast. Welcome back.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:01:54] Thanks, John. Thanks.

John Dehlin [00:01:55] I should say welcome back. You've been on before, right?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:01:58] Yeah, I've been on a few times

John Dehlin [00:02:00] as a guest and as a host.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:02:01] That's right. That's right. I'm glad to be back.

John Dehlin [00:02:05] Yeah. Well, good. So Natasha kind of specializes in therapy for Mormons. Did you say 98% of your clients are LDs or former LDs?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:02:16] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:02:17] Yeah. So Natasha not only sees clients in, you know, Kansas, Wichita, but also she does a lot of her therapy over Skype. And I've referred a lot of friends, family and associates to Natasha. What percentage of your business is Skype?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:02:37] Oh, probably about half of it right now.

John Dehlin [00:02:39] That's great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. So anyone who needs help, Natasha is there. I'll be. I'll be around in a few years, but I'm not licensed yet. So for now, Natasha, you get all the. All the referrals. Is that ok?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:02:55] That's fine. And I'm sure you'll be much help when you get around to it.

John Dehlin [00:03:01] I send people to Jennifer Finlis in Fife, too.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:03:04] Oh, yeah, she's great.

John Dehlin [00:03:05] And my buddy Dave Christian, okay, so we've got an exciting episode planned today. This is kind of going to be the kickoff to Mormon Mental Health. We're going to cross post it on both Mormon Stories and sort of the kickoff episode to Mormon Mental Health. And we'll do that occasionally. Sometimes Natasha will just record interviews that are only featured on Mormon Mental Health and sometimes either with me as a co interviewer or just Natasha by herself, we'll feature some of her interviews in the Mormon Stories podcast feed. But today, as we kick off Mormon Mental Health, we are going to talk about the top 10 things that Mormons or LDS Church members or former Mormons tend to present with in Natasha's experience doing therapy for Mormons for, you know, 15 plus years. So we've got a list. It's actually 11, we're going to say a top 10 list. Some of these things blend together. Some of them are more clinical in nature and some of them are just more kind of life issues that aren't necessarily diagnosable. But we're going to go ahead and cover them. You ready to jump in?

Top Ten Mormon Mental Health Issues Overview

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:04:22] I'm ready. Let's do it.

John Dehlin [00:04:23] Anything you want to say before we begin?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:04:27] I think that I would just say that, yeah, this is definitely my experience. This is not research based as far as the top 10 issues that get presented, but in my experience working with members and post members of the church, they seem to be largely the amount of, of issues that come across. My office.

John Dehlin [00:04:49] Excellent. All right, well, good. Well, I think, I think regardless, that's going to be super helpful to the people listening. So let's dive in. All right, so to begin with, we're going to start kind of with the classic DSM diagnosis number one. We're going to talk about depression. So there's going to be a lot of people here that probably know about depression, but there might be some people who maybe even have depression or members of the family with depression, but they really don't even recognize the signs. So let's just start by what are some of the classic signs of depression?

Depression in Mormon Culture

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:05:31] Well, depression is an interesting word because it's one of those things where all of us have times where we feel depressed and that's normal and part of life. However, clinical depression refers to when those feelings and those symptoms last for too long of a time and they're having too much of an impact in your life. So some of the classic symptoms of depression are obviously a depressed mood, meaning you're feeling sad or empty or just kind of emotionally upset. Many times it affects things that you used to enjoy are no longer enjoyable. So pleasure is no longer something that comes easily to you. It can affect your appetite either way. It can affect your appetite in ways where you lose a lot of weight without trying to or you gain a lot of weight without meaning to. It can affect your sleep habits so that you're either sleeping too many hours a day or too little, or you're waking up at times of the night when you can't get back to sleep. Obviously fatigue, loss of energy, feelings of worthlessness are a big one. So you start really self attacking. You have a self dialogue where you really speak very negatively to yourself. And it can affect obviously your ability to think and make decisions. So. So some cognitive effects. And lastly, and probably most importantly and seriously is that it can affect suicidal thoughts, ideation, and even of course, to the point of planning out a suicide attempt and having one.

John Dehlin [00:07:18] You forgot the most important symptom, which is sex drive.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:07:23] Oh, thank you. Yeah, no, that kind of went along with my pleasure thing. But yes. Right. So obviously I'm trying to motivate those who are depressed. Right. But yes, your libido can be highly affected by depression. So if you had a normal to high libido, now you have no interest in sexual activity.

John Dehlin [00:07:47] Yeah, yeah. It can affect things that we don't even anticipate. Now there's kind of a rumor that goes around and there's probably some data behind it, that Utah leads the nation in the use of SSRIs or antidepressant medications. And there's sort of this sort of. I don't know if it's a myth or perception that Mormon women are much more depressed than the average woman. It's probably hard to really know whether any of that's really true. Do you have any responses to those types of claims?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:08:27] Well, I do believe that there is research showing that Utah does have a high level of antidepressants being prescribed. So I believe that is true. I also know that women tend to present with clinical depression more than men, although there's some controversy as to why that is. I think men oftentimes present with different symptoms that maybe are not necessarily on this list. So a depressed man, for example, may be a workaholic or, you know, be spending a lot of time or energy on something that doesn't necessarily fall into this list that we talked about with these symptoms. So there's some controversy about why women present more than men with depression. Also, women tend to be more comfortable still to this day going to therapy than men. So that may be Another reason why they present is more depressed just because they're talking about it more.

John Dehlin [00:09:21] Right. And seeking treatment.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:09:23] Correct. And then thirdly, I know that there was a recent article that came out talking about single or not, I'm not single mothers, stay at home mothers as being high on the list for depression. So these, you know, and so they're young, they tend to be younger, you know, in their 20s and 30s, and they, they report as being stay at home moms. So obviously they don't have the same amount of interaction with adults as maybe somebody who's working every day or, you know, outside of the home or things like that. So that may be a part of it.

John Dehlin [00:10:02] Got it.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:10:02] And of course, you know, in Mormonism, there's a lot of stay at home mothers. We make that an important goal for many women.

John Dehlin [00:10:10] Yeah. And probably to be fair to, to Mormonism, an increased use of SSRIs or selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors or, you know, Prozac or these types of antidepressant medications, that doesn't necessarily translate into an increased incidence of depression. It could just mean that we seek treatment more than other people and that other people might medicate in different ways. Is that fair to say?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:10:36] I think that's very fair to say. And I think that one of the things that I think that Mormon people are, is proactive. And so if they're depressed or if they see something wrong in their lives, they want to fix it. And so although there's no research to back up my little theory, I think that part of the reason is that maybe Mormon women are good at going and getting the care that they need to get.

John Dehlin [00:10:59] Right.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:11:03] There shouldn't be any shame or stigma attached to the fact that a Mormon woman is on an antidepressant.

John Dehlin [00:11:10] Right. And given sort of our history of how we've spoken about the mental health profession in the past, I'm thinking specifically about Mormon doctrine, Bruce Armaconki's Mormon doctrine, and how it sort of seemed to condemn the mental health profession. I personally find it, you know, a positive step to see Mormons seeking mental health support of any kind, because it shows that we've maybe moved beyond that stage of stigmatizing, you know, seeking help for mental health.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:11:45] Yes, and I would agree with that. And I think that that has been a big part of that is I attribute it to really coming from the pulpit down that I think for probably the last 30 years, we have been hearing addresses from the pulpit where apostles or prophets will state directly that if you need professional help it is appropriate to go and do so. So I think that's been very helpful to have that type of approach.

John Dehlin [00:12:11] Yeah. Okay. So, you know, we're not going to be digging into depth on any one of these 11 issues too much. But. But, you know, and what we're going to do is, as you do episodes over the coming years, you'll dig deeply into these issues, probably across multiple episodes. So, you know, we don't want our listeners to expect that we're going to do a deep dive on anyone. But having said that, you know, what are the. You've mentioned a few things like, you know, mothers being isolated. Do you think that there are some things unique to Mormon culture that might contribute to depression? I'll just say, like multiple children, for example, or, you know, you know, callings, or too much pressure, you know, to be too busy, or high levels of expectation or, you know, or even tendencies towards perfectionism or even genetic factors. I just listed some off the top of my head. But do you think that there might be some factors about our culture that might, you know, lead a little bit to depression in some instances?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:13:24] Yes, absolutely. It's interesting because if you look at the Beck Depression Inventory, which is kind of a small way to try to measure what level of severity you might be suffering from, the first half of that questionnaire is what I call Mormon depression. This is just me. This is not professional. And then the second half of the questionnaire is more what I call biological depression, because the second half of the questionnaire asks questions, questions about, you know, like, are you having trouble, you know, making decisions? Are you having trouble with your sex drive, your appetite, you know, you're sleeping. The first part of the questionnaire really asks the questions such as, you know, do I feel like I've had a lot of failures in my life? Do I feel like I'm worthy? Do I feel like, you know, I like myself or hate myself? So it's very interesting to me that oftentimes when I'm seeing LDS women who present with clinical depression, that first part of that back depression inventory scores pretty high. And it really does have to do with this idea that they don't feel worthy or that they're meeting the challenges of the high expectations that we tend to idealize in our overall Mormon culture. These are women who oftentimes are staying at home with children. Oftentimes, if they're not staying home with children, they're working and also being excellent mothers. They are, you know, managing callings. They are paying their tithing. They are, you know, doing so many great things. But as we know, the list is long and you know, there's many wonderful things that we could be doing as part of our service to the Lord. And that list can be extremely overwhelming to people. And if they're not doing one of those things that they feel they should be doing, like reading their scriptures daily or having regular family home evenings, or paying their tithing 100%, then the immense amount of shame and inner guilt that comes along with that is really palpable. I mean you can really see it as they talk about that in their eyes and in their emotions and in their body language.

John Dehlin [00:15:42] Yeah, and I'm trying to think of the flip side of this as well. One thing I forgot to mention is, yeah, the financial pressures of having so many kids and paying tithing. Some people like to say that that contributes an extra burden. I'm thinking of Uchtdorf now. It almost feels like Uchtdorf has become sort of the anti depression apostle in the sense that so many of his talks seem to say, don't, you know, don't get too hung up on things. Give yourself a break, chill out, relax. Do you get the sense that, that at least Uchtdorf and maybe others are trying to proactively address some of this perfectionism and self loathing and guilt that we sometimes have?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:16:29] Yes, I think that people such as Uchtdorf are doing an excellent job in trying to normalize life and help people. I think it was even Anderson who said this isn't the spiritual Olympics in the April conference. And so just kind of trying to normalize that. We're all on a journey and we're. I think the words again that Anderson used was we're migrating towards something better. It's not that we're trying to sprint there or trying to get, you know, run faster than we should. I mean it's in our, in our own scriptures. At the same time, you know, you will have those types of talks and they're not, in my experience, they don't happen as often as the other types of talks that are very do oriented. In other words, do this, do that, you know, whatever you want to add to that. So in a general conference address, the reason why maybe an Uchtdorf talk is so refreshing is that it's one of 20 where you get that kind of a more grace oriented message.

John Dehlin [00:17:33] Right now I'm going to just flip to the other side. You know, I'm seeing lots of clients these days and I want to say for those who want to attack Mormonism as Being this, you know, this abyss of, you know, depression creation. I want to say that it's not at all that simple. You know, as I think about the research that I've read about what contributes to happiness, you know, there are three things that sort of always bubble to the top. One is a sense of meaning and purpose in life. A second is having meaningful relationships, both intimate relationships and social relationships and family relationships. And then the third is sort of, I'll say it in Mormon parlance, being anxiously engaged in a good cause or behavioral activation is another buzzword that's used in the mental health profession. And I would say that it's not as simple as get rid of your religion and you're going to be happy. The truth is, for many people, religion provides all three of those things. It provides a sense of meaning and purpose. It provides strong families and a strong close knit community of support. And it provides activities that you can get engaged in that help give your life focus and direction and meaning and that frankly, keep you busy. And sometimes idleness can actually lead to depression. And so I think that as much grief as the church might sometimes get in some quarters about leading to depression, I think you could argue that religion in general, and Mormonism specifically, probably helps a lot of people stay mentally healthy. Do you think that's fair?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:19:20] Oh, I would totally agree with that. And even with people who present with some of these things that we're going to talk about today, oftentimes a reframing of their spirituality or how they're looking at their religion, they can use those same principles or beliefs that they dearly hold onto and use them towards actually getting better. So, and I would agree, and I would add to your list, I mean, you kind of mentioned it, but volunteer service is something that's recommended to depressed clients all the time. So it's interesting because my Mormon depressed clients, I'm usually not telling them to volunteer more, they're usually volunteering too much. So, yeah. So it is interesting how the church culture does have a lot of different organizations and programs and things that can be very beneficial to people and can really be, in some instances, lifesavers. But like the scriptures say, there's opposition in all things. They can also be used to self berate and self loathe, and that's not helpful either. So it's just a matter of finding balance in these things that we hold dear and finding healthier ways to live the things that we want to find sacred in our lives.

John Dehlin [00:20:35] Yeah, and just to put a final cap on that point, I was trying to make earlier. I think there actually are empirical studies that I've been provided even by atheists and secular sort of experts in the psychology of religion. There's data that supports that religious people are happier than non religious people on average, and that religion provides a psychologically protective benefit. I don't say that to offend non believers or non religious. And of course you can find pockets of any population that are happier or less happy. But overall, religion is a protective factor psychologically. Is that your understanding too?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:21:15] Yes, that's true. And they've also been shown to have better sex lives, believe it or not. And they've also. What's another interesting tidbit I saw the other day was just optimism is such an important piece of being happy. And so the count your many blessings kind of approach to life is definitely helpful. And having gratitude journals, I mean, those are things that we're hearing even outside of Mormonism now that are helpful to people. I guess one thing that I'd like to just tease out a little bit is this word happy that I don't actually like to use very much. A lot of people will come in and say, I want to be happier. Very hard thing to measure, this thing called happiness. And on any given day, you know, we have moments of happiness and moments of sadness, moments of anger. So I prefer to use the word contentment, like general contentment and where our life is going in the direction we're headed and whether or not we're making kind of general progress over time. So I think that the search for happiness can be a little bit elusive.

John Dehlin [00:22:22] That's good. That's a good reminder in terms of how depression affects us. I'm just going to, for the sake of time, I'll throw out that it basically means you're not enjoying your life, you're sad, you're often sleeping a lot or avoiding the behaviors that bring you joy, not really fun to be around. Any other quick things you want to mention in terms of just how it affects your life?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:22:46] Well, again, to become a diagnosable type of thing versus just a normal part of life is that it has to be the frequency. So in other words, you're not having just a bad day or a bad few days, you're having a bad two weeks or a bad month or year or years or year? Well, yeah, then you're definitely in the frequency department. And then also that it's really kind of getting in the way of things in your life. So it might keep you from going to work, it might keep you from your regularly kind of scheduled events that you normally like to do might keep you from writing your dissertation or all different kinds of things that you maybe have interest in doing or would like to do, but really have no motivation or energy to get into. And sometimes people can be depressed and still function, but they're kind of functioning with a lot of work. It's a lot of work to just get the kids out of bed and get them to school in the morning. That's a lot of work to just get myself to work every day. So it doesn't mean that you have to just sleep all day necessarily. I mean, there's obviously severe cases where that happens and people don't go to work at all. But you can be moderately depressed or even mildly depressed, and it's affecting your daily life in ways that you start noticing. You know, I just don't quite feel like myself.

John Dehlin [00:24:07] Yeah, yeah. So, you know, knowing that we only have a minute or two to cover this point, and it's doing it kind of a great injustice. We're going to do that for all 11. What are some of the basic treatments for depression? How do you treat them?

Treating Depression and Anxiety

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:24:22] Yeah, best standard of care for depression from a medical model is probably a combination of pharmaceuticals and talk therapy. And so if you combine those, it seems to have the best effect. There's obviously many natural ways to treat depression, such as good diet, exercise, good sleeping habits. The problem with that is that when you're depressed, you don't feel like having a good diet or having good sleeping or exercising. So oftentimes it's helpful to start with the medical model and then incorporate the healthier lifestyle changes as you feel better.

John Dehlin [00:24:56] And it's true that meds alone, probably for most mental illnesses, doesn't ever really kind of quote, fix the underlying problem that there are very few. Unless there's some major genetic or chemical imbalances, there are few conditions that meds will actually, quote, cure or fix. So if you need meds to stabilize, that's very important. And for some people, meds are like a lifesaver. But my understanding is for most of these things, if you want to actually get to the root of the problem and have a chance at actually solving the problem or recovering or fixing things, it's talk therapy that's going to actually, quote, make you get better over time. Is that your understanding?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:25:48] Yeah, I would say that they both have their limitations and they both have their pros. For example, something like bipolar depression, which we're not even really going to address tonight, but that is really, more than anything, a medically treated disorder. Schizophrenia, you know, is another medically treated disorder that you can do all kinds of talk therapy and it's not necessarily going to help you because those are really, you know, psychological issues that are going on in your brain.

John Dehlin [00:26:17] So.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:26:18] But, you know, a lot of people for depression, for example, can take a med and feel somewhat better. And the research shows that just by taking a mad, you can feel better. And some people will only do the talk therapy approach and they'll feel better as well. However, when you take them, when you combine those two, you feel better quicker and you feel better longer. Now, some people will need to be on an antidepressant possibly their entire life, especially if it's a genetic type of thing. And oftentimes if you do a background kind of history on people, if they're presenting with depression in childhood or early adolescence, you know, there may be a genetic component there, but sometimes it's not necessarily genetic. Maybe there's been trauma like sexual abuse or child abuse of some kind. So for some people, they really need to manage a medicine kind of the rest of their life. For many people with situational depression, it's just something they may take for anywhere from six months to a few years and then they, under a doctor's care, kind of taper off and they don't notice any difference as they get off of the med. So that's kind of the two general ways that people use medications. There's also obviously ect, I think electroconvulsive therapy for depression. That's used for. Am I saying that right? I think so.

John Dehlin [00:27:43] Electroshock therapy is another term I've heard.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:27:45] Yeah, thank you. And that's used for severe depression, chronic depression treatment, resistant depression. So in other words, you've tried all these different things and it's just not working. And they actually have good results from that type of treatment. Probably it just sounds a little scary. And it can have some memory loss associated with it as far as short term memory loss. So it's somewhat invasive. And people don't generally like to have that type of treatments. It's kind of like a last resort, but it is very actually effective.

John Dehlin [00:28:20] It's also fair to say that for some there's some pretty unpleasant side effects to medication.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:28:26] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:28:27] You know, dosages, tolerance and just, you know, side effects like impotence and sometimes even suicidality associated with antidepressants. So meds sometimes can be problematic. True.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:28:43] Yes. And the problem with antidepressants is that they tend to take a while to start working. So you have to be kind of patient with finding the right medicine with the right dose. And for some people, that's pretty simple. And a primary care physician can help you do that, especially if you've got mild or moderate depression. If you have severe depression or maybe have comorbidity with other disorders in your life, it's probably more beneficial to see a psychiatrist who is more, you know, who's a specialist in that and would know to maybe combine different meds or would no to different dosing type of styles that your primary care physician is not going to feel comfortable doing.

John Dehlin [00:29:28] Tell us what comorbid means real quick.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:29:30] It means that you have more than one disorder happening at the same time.

John Dehlin [00:29:35] So like anxiety and depression.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:29:37] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:29:37] Eating disorder and depression.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:29:39] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:29:40] Okay.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:29:41] So the more, you know, the more diagnoses you have, it's just the more difficult it will be to find all the different treatments that will be helpful. A lot of people give up on antidepressants prematurely because, you know, they don't see results right away. They maybe have a side effect here or there. But one thing I really try to educate about is that you're having side effects regardless. You're having side effects from depression. And not that I want you to have side effects from medicine, but if you can be patient with the process and find something that will give you the least amount of side effects possible, they may outweigh the cons of the side effects from depression itself.

John Dehlin [00:30:22] And isn't behavioral activation kind of a key element of treatment for depression? Just getting people out there doing stuff?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:30:31] Yeah, obviously. I mean, that's why exercise is so effective. But it's just, again, it's difficult to find the motivation for that when you're depressed.

John Dehlin [00:30:39] Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Okay, great. Well, that's depression. Let's move on to anxiety.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:30:47] Yeah. Depression's best friend.

John Dehlin [00:30:50] Yeah. They're often comorbid, right?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:30:52] Yes, very often.

John Dehlin [00:30:53] Yeah. Yeah. But they all, you know, but they kind of seem a little bit oppositional. You know, depression means you're kind of sad and lifeless. Anxiety, when you think about it, you're kind of nervous and uptight. How in the world can they kind of co. Occur? And what is anxiety?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:31:14] Well, there's different types of anxiety, and right now I'm probably going to focus more on generalized anxiety.

John Dehlin [00:31:20] Yeah, there's many, many anxiety disorders, technically.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:31:23] Right, Correct. So, for example, you can just have a panic attack. Oftentimes people who are having a panic attack for the first time think that they're having a heart attack or think that they're having an asthma attack because they can't breathe and their heart rate is elevated. So that's something that kind of tends to happen very acutely and strongly and then it kind of goes away. Oftentimes they'll present in emergency rooms again because they think they're having some type of life altering problem going on. So those are panic attacks. But generalized anxiety is basically having excessive worry in your life and you find it difficult to control that worry. So you may lay awake at night with kind of thoughts running through your head that you can't control and they won't stop and they keep you awake at night. You feel kind of keyed up or on edge, you feel difficulty concentrating, you might be irritable. Again, it affects your sleep. And sometimes the anxiety and worry come from legitimate sources and sometimes there is no legitimate source. So you're just worried. Even, you know, you worry about things that may not even happen. So that's kind of a general overview of anxiety. And this kind of goes back to what you talked about, you know, with all the pressure that high expectations, for example, in the church create for people that oftentimes is what starts the cycle. So they'll, you know, like they're working in a calling and they're, you know, working overtime and they're not, you know, not having enough time with their kids and now all of a sudden they're short a tithing check. And you know that anxiety is just building and building. And if you have anxiety for long enough that goes untreated, that can often lead to these feelings of worthlessness. I can't handle my life, you know, so you can see how it very easily ties in then into depression. So chronic anxiety can lead to depression. Of course, depression can also lead to anxiety because if you're depressed and if you're not functioning and if you're sleeping all day long and you're not paying your bills and you know, you're not functioning the way that you should be functioning. You're not going to class or taking your tests. All of a sudden anxiety starts kicking in because you're not getting the things done. The bill collectors are paying, you know, whatever are calling. There's all kinds of ways how one of those can start the, the pathway for the other one to kind of jump on board.

John Dehlin [00:34:08] Right. So is, is, you know, is, is anxiety treated a lot like depression? What's the treatment? How is it different from depression?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:34:19] It's somewhat similar. I mean, there's, there's also pharma Pharmacological ways to treat anxiety. And obviously, you know, cognitive behavioral therapy and talk therapy is also very helpful. So they are similarly treated. And oftentimes many of the antidepressants out there actually help with anxiety anyway. So sometimes you'll get benefits from that without even having the disorder, if that makes sense.

John Dehlin [00:34:52] Sure. So treated. Treated very similarly to depression, then.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:34:57] Yes. A lot of to do with, you know, cognitions and trying to figure out what are the patterns of my thoughts. I work often with, you know, is there evidence for those thoughts? I want to know what your inner dialogue is doing. We start writing those things down. We start reframing. In other words, instead of I'm fat pig, well, can we say I could stand to lose some weight? Same thing. Maybe there's evidence that you are overweight, but do you really have to talk to yourself in such a crappy way that's fueling your depression or anxiety even further? Lots of different cognitive exercises, relaxation exercises, breathing exercises are very helpful for anxiety. Mindfulness, acceptance therapy. I think you're very familiar with that act. All those different things can be extremely helpful for anxiety.

John Dehlin [00:35:58] Very nice. Yeah. How treatable would you say depression and anxiety are? What's the recovery rate or the get better rate?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:36:06] I think in general, I'm trying to. There are numbers for this, I think that I want to say, like 70 to 80% of people who do kind of this combined treatment of meds with therapy find significant, you know, progress in their life. Again, the goal is not to. Not to ever feel depression or anxiety in your life. Those are kind of normal responses we have as human beings, but we want to get to a point where they're not running our life.

John Dehlin [00:36:35] Right.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:36:37] And so I want to say, I don't have the numbers in front of me.

John Dehlin [00:36:41] Just approximate. We're not going to hold you to it.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:36:43] Yes. I think what's really frustrating for people is when they have what we call treatment resistant depression or anxiety. In other words, they are doing these things and they're not feeling the relief of their symptoms. That's when I always recommend that a psychiatrist be involved in the treatment at that point.

John Dehlin [00:37:08] Right. Okay, so let's move on. So there's one more. There's a couple more that kind of fit within the anxiety realm. One is scrupulosity and obsessive compulsive disorder. You know, for my longtime listeners, they've heard two kind of full episodes on unscrupulosity and obsessive compulsive disorder. Why don't you talk about that? Really quick.

Scrupulosity and Obsessive Compulsive Disorder

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:37:34] Yeah. And I think that you've had really excellent programs on this. So obsessive compulsive disorder is basically an anxiety disorder where you have obsessions and compulsions. So the obsessions would be thoughts that are persistent, that are continued there. The impulses, they're bothering you, you can't get rid of them, you can't stop thinking about them, and you try to suppress those thoughts. And usually what helps to suppress those thoughts is some type of compulsion. So, for example, if you're overwhelmed with the thought of germs on your hand and you're just hyper vigilant about that, what can help you ease yourself from those thoughts is go wash your hands. But now you're washing your hands 20 times a day and your hands are getting chafed and it's interfering with your work because you're getting up so many times, comes from your desk, you know, so it's. It helps in the immediate, you know, coping mechanism thing, but it doesn't help really, in your lifestyle to cope with your obsession in that way. So the reason why I wrote this down is that obsessive OCD will tend to attack things that are important to you. And I think you've mentioned that before in your podcast. And so oftentimes when I'm being presented with ocd, it's Mormons who have really issues around OCD and their sexuality, or they're even maybe a little bit broader than just sexuality, but their worthiness in general. And so they've taken these issues of anxiety and taken it to a whole new level. So now they're having, you know, the obsession might be that they're not pure enough, not worthy enough. They're not going to get into the social kingdom. You know, there's all this persistent thoughts, and then the compulsion is, you know, something like reading scriptures, you know, three hours a day or confessing to a bishop on a weekly basis. I've had, you know, men that will go to all kinds of extremes to not masturbate, for example, and that the compulsion is actually not doing something. So not masturbating.

John Dehlin [00:40:00] How can not doing something be a compulsion?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:40:03] Well, because. Well, I guess the idea is that you're doing something else to avoid that. So maybe they're exercising five hours a day instead. But the idea is that they cannot masturbate. So I see that as the compulsion even though else is going.

John Dehlin [00:40:19] So it spills over in ways that negatively affect their lives.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:40:25] Right.

John Dehlin [00:40:26] Is that right?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:40:27] Correct. And sometimes bishops get very tied into this without. Many times without Actually realizing what's going on because the person is presenting themselves, usually in an exaggerated way as a sinner. And the bishop thinks that they're just going through a repentance type process when really it's a much deeper phenomenon than that.

John Dehlin [00:40:50] Right, right. And sometimes it's problematic because extreme religiosity can be praised within the religious culture. So that can reinforce some of these behaviors that aren't always positive. So that becomes a problem too. And then. Yeah, so it can be a real dragon. So what are the treatments for scrupulosity and ocd?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:41:20] Well, there's two treatments, I think, that are probably best. Well, okay, so three. One is again, pharmacological. As far as the therapy perspective goes, I think there's aversion therapy for ocd, which means that little by little you become exposed to whatever it is that's causing you anxiety. So if you're afraid of germs, you know, little by little you start putting yourself in positions where you might come in contact with germs and the therapist can help you do that. The problem with scrupulosity, especially if it's sexual in nature, is that, you know, putting yourself in a. In a position where, I mean, are you going to go to strip clubs, are you going to go hire a prostitute? Are you going to do things that help you become more comfortable with your sexuality in that way? That just isn't very ethical for most people. And so, or they, you know, they're not comfortable obviously with those types of treatments that would be considered part of aversion therapy. Even things like looking at pornography, Many members would not be comfortable with that, even though it would be part of an aversion type process. So then I think, and you've spoken of this at length, is the other treatment approach is this acceptance therapy approach where really you learn how to be mindful, where you learn how to be cognizant of your thoughts as separate from who you are as a being, how you see those thoughts. Possibly one way that we talk about it often in my office is a wave, like an ocean wave. There's going to be a crest, but it's also going to go back down. And can you ride that wave? And what do you learn about yourself as you ride that wave? And how do you deal with your anxiety as you're riding that wave? So it becomes more of an acceptance of what your mind is doing and understanding where that's going instead of trying to resist it.

John Dehlin [00:43:27] I'm just going to add one slight perspective. Normally I'm not hearing the first treatment you talked about, actually the second as aversion therapy. In the literature I've been reading, it's referred to as exposure and ritual prevention, or ERP for short. Or sometimes when it's shortened, it's just called exposure. But it's the same concepts that you were saying in that whether it's. Whether it's germs or not touching wood, if somebody feels like they have to touch wood all the time, or again, sexual types of things, it's exposing the person in a prolonged way to the feared stimuli such that they develop a tolerance, and the anxiety that is invoked by the feared stimuli decreases over time through prolonged exposure. So just a slight little addition to your excellent description.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:44:28] No, thank you. I don't. I'm not always very good at getting my words completely straight, so I always appreciate work help on that.

John Dehlin [00:44:35] So this just happens to be the one area that I've kind of dived into in depth.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:44:40] So, yeah, I need more experience, I think, even on this, than I do. So that's.

John Dehlin [00:44:44] You did great. Okay, so. So let's close out our discussion of anxiety disorders by quickly talking about, you know, post traumatic stress disorder or PTSD and sexual trauma.

Trauma and Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:45:03] Right. So a lot of people wouldn't put those two together, I think. And I will also include with that physical trauma and even emotional trauma. So any type of abusive situation that people maybe have encountered specifically in their childhoods, whether by parents or step parents or guardians of some sort, usually starts the same process that we see for people diagnosed with ptsd, which is post traumatic stress disorder. And what we tend to think about when we think of PTSD is war veterans. I mean, that's very. I think most people would be. That's what they would think of. So. But you don't need to be a war veteran to have ptsd. I mean, you can have. All it takes is one traumatic event where you really feel like your life could be in danger, to experience the type of adrenaline and fear that can cause, really, a lasting effect for you, that can really cause issues like nightmares and night terrors even and kind of generalized anxiety and all kinds of things that happen with ptsd. We find that the same things happen with people who are victims of childhood abuse of one sort or another. Not sure what else you want me to say about that.

John Dehlin [00:46:41] You know, my experience is that this is one of the more difficult things to treat, and the treatment can be quite prolonged. In other words, sometimes years and years of treatment. You know, how treatable is this? And what are the Best treatments for trauma.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:46:59] Well, the good news about our brains and the brain research that they're doing these days is that we can create new neuropathways. We. I don't know that we. I think we thought we couldn't do that at one time, but now we know we can. So that's really good news because in essence, that's what you need to do if you've been affected by something traumatic, like abuse or like a war or like even other things like natural disasters, you know, just a few hours away, we've got our Joplin neighbors who just survived this incredible tornado just a year and a half ago or so. That can be a very traumatic event that affects people for years to come. Specifically when it comes, I think, to chronic trauma. In other words, it's not just one event, it's over and over and over again, Especially in an abusive home type situation. Yes. I think the treatment can generally take years, and it doesn't necessarily have to be every week for seven years of your life. But you may go for six or eight months, you may take a break, you may go back, and really what you're doing in that setting is that you're reconstructing your neuropsychology so that you can feel safe again. Incredible thing that people cannot develop when they're in chronic traumatic situations is that feeling of safety in their general lives. And this can affect, of course, relationships and all kinds of their own parenting. It can just be pretty debilitating in a lot of different ways. So what I try to tell people, because seven years can seem like a long time. But if you've been dealing with something for 30 years, seven years isn't really that long to really find a complete change in your neuropsychology.

John Dehlin [00:49:11] Right. So you've seen, you've seen people get better.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:49:16] Absolutely. And I, you know, and again, it's not like it takes seven years to see any positive results. I can see positive results within three to six months for people, but it just is a continual journey and there's just so much work that needs to be done and so many different triggers and so many different areas of their life where this tends to have an impact. That it just takes a long time to see the type of results that most people want.

John Dehlin [00:49:46] Right? Yeah. It's definitely a more intensive kind of treatment, isn't it?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:49:54] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:49:55] Yeah. But there's hope. That's good.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:49:57] Oh, absolutely. And like I said, there's changes that can happen right away as far as the starting process. So people should not be Discouraged by that. And I just want to say, and again, seven years is just a number I'm throwing out. It can be one year, it can be two years, it can be 10 years. But just not to be discouraged by that because it can really be life changing. And if you've been through something like that, you really deserve the time to heal from it.

John Dehlin [00:50:31] Right. Very good. Okay, let's move on to addiction. What are the types of addictions that people are reporting to you?

Pornography, Addiction, and Compulsive Behavior

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:50:45] Well, most of the addiction that people are reporting to me is not addiction. So that's interesting dynamic, I guess, within the Mormon culture. Although I have worked with addiction, I've worked in. In fact, I started my career at a heroin treatment center in Detroit. So I definitely have had experience with drug addiction and alcohol addiction and addiction to certain behaviors that become completely over possessive in people's lives. Most people that I see present with what they would call pornography or sexual addiction. And what this tends to mean not always, because there are people that really do kind of present with symptoms that, you know, where sexuality or pornography can really be taking up an extraordinary amount of time in people's lives. However, what it tends to mean in my population is that the man or woman is looking at pornography maybe once or twice a month and is masturbating, you know, maybe once, two, three times a month.

John Dehlin [00:52:01] It's funny, that's the frequency I often get too. It's about three weeks for men on average, just in my limited experience. They'll masturbate about once every three weeks. And they call themselves addicts. They describe their life in terms of weeks of sobriety. They're part of 12 step programs. It's really interesting. Yes, you're seeing the same thing in Wichita.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:52:27] Yes, yes, I am. And I think. Well, and in other places that I've worked too. But I think the reason why this gets dubbed as an addiction is because part of the addiction language is that you have a behavior that you want to control and that you can't control and that it controls you. And the problem with sexuality and the same problem with eating, because a lot of people who are overweight will call themselves food addicts is that these are natural drives in our body. And so of course you're going to have these kind of urges or desires to be sexual or to eat food. Now, whether or not you do those things in healthy ways is definitely something to bring to therapy. We can always explore those things. But to call it an addiction just because somebody says, well, but I've been dealing with this since I was 13, and like you said, every three weeks it happens, and I have no control over it. It's completely ignoring a very natural biological drive that pretty much says it's probably a good idea to have a semen emission every three weeks, you know, or to have an orgasmic release every two to three weeks. And this is true for women as well.

John Dehlin [00:53:45] What would you say to someone who says that the body has a perfectly natural, you know, safety valve in nocturnal emissions, at least for men, such that masturbation, you know, can't be claimed as a biological necessity or the body would take care of it automatically?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:54:06] I don't think that there's good research to support that. I don't think that everybody has the experience of having nocturnal emissions. I think in general, most adolescent boys do as they begin puberty. My understanding, I believe, is that that tends to kind of decrease as we get older, and women in general don't tend to have this experience and yet have also just as much of sexual drives and sexual urges as men do. Yeah, I'm not sure that that holds up very well.

John Dehlin [00:54:40] Okay, so no data for that.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:54:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:43] And you're saying the. The apparent drive or need for some type of. A certain frequency of a release, it's just manifested through. Through masturbation, but it's. It's every bit as core to our basic need, Is that what you're saying?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:55:02] Yeah, Well, I think that, yes, I do believe that sexual release is part of our needs as human beings. And I believe that there are ways to do that relationally, and there are ways to do that individually, and there are ways to do that in a healthy way, and there are ways to do that in unhealthy ways. So all of that is true when it comes to, you know, sexual stimulation or manual stimulation of the genitals. This is something that as creatures, as human beings, we start in utero. So we have this tendency to want to comfort ourselves or soothe ourselves by touching our genital areas. It happens for little kids, and that happens for teenagers, and that happens for adults. So there is something there about biological kind of cycle that each of one of us has. It differs for each person, but oftentimes in general terms, it's, you know, you kind of have a sexual urge maybe once to twice a week, to once or twice a month. I mean, that's kind of a normal range. There's people maybe less than that. There's people more than that.

John Dehlin [00:56:26] Got it.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:56:28] Well, as though, however, is that if you try to suppress that need and you don't find that, release that then it can become kind of hyper sexualized. In other words, if you're trying not to masturbate once a week, all of a sudden you may want to masturbate four times a week. So the suppression of doing something that's natural can lead to actual more problems.

John Dehlin [00:56:59] Now, this is tricky because, you know, the bishops that I've spoken with, you know, it's in the strength of the youth pamphlet that we're not to stimulate ourselves. And I don't see the church changing, you know, this policy anytime soon. And so, you know, I think you're going to find two types of people. You're going to find a type of person that maybe you could talk to them and they could say, okay, well, there's a church norm here that I'm going to kind of just quietly disregard. And my guess is for you that the solution for those type of people is just to masturbate when they feel like they need it. Is that true?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:57:41] Well, I think that is happening. I also think what is probably more happening is that instead of just saying, well, that's something I'm going to disregard and be okay with, is that people are doing it and then feeling kind of awful about themselves. So it's not that they're disregarding it, they're just doing it and then feeling kind of this, you know, guilt or shame that goes along with this behavior and then attributing that guilt or shame to, of course, well, I wouldn't be feeling guilt or shame if it wasn't a sin. So that becomes a problematic pattern for many people. And then there are some people that really do try to adhere to it and either have masturbated very few times, and then I have met a few people that have never masturbated. So that's as far as statistically, I think right now, I think it's 98% of men claim to have masturbated at some point in their adolescent years. And I think it's up to about 82% of women have claimed to do that. But that's not a Mormon statistic, that's a general statistic. My few polls that I've taken on this, which are not really scientifically based or evidence based, but just through my website, Mormons tend to, you know, report similar numbers. And I would definitely say that my practice has reported that as well. People talk with people. In my practice, most of them have had, have masturbated at some point.

John Dehlin [00:59:17] Okay. So for a certain population who is open to the Idea, you know, the answer for them might be, you know, don't stress about it so much. You know, here's lots of things you can do to stay active and develop a healthy intimacy so that, you know, masturbation isn't necessary or is minimally necessary. What would you recommend? You know, what do you do when a client just basically says, it is my value to not do this and I want you to help me not do this? How do you help them?

Masturbation, Sexuality, and Church Teaching

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:59:52] Well, I have taken a pretty direct stance on this at this point. And at that point, I would really have to refer them to another therapist because I'm not willing to do that work. I'm not willing to do work that I find unethical.

John Dehlin [01:00:08] Whoa. So you find it unethical to help a client minimize their masturbation?

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:00:15] Well, unless their masturbation is presenting as truly problematic, you know, where they're masturbating like five times to ten times a day and they're hurting their genital areas because they're masturbating so much, or masturbation has really become a coping mechanism that gets in the way of their social life or, you know, other that it's problematic. I mean, just like somebody who's eating in a problematic way. But I'm not going to help somebody stop eating.

John Dehlin [01:00:45] Right. But. But it. But what makes you take the stance that this is an ethical issue? Just to help someone reduce their frequency, for example, even if it's not problematic? Let's just say it's once every three weeks. But they want to try and get it to once every two months or once every six months.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:01:10] Yeah, I just don't think that's a goal that's worthy of therapy. I charge a certain amount and takes a lot of time and energy to come to therapy, and I just think I'd be wasting their time. So that's part of the unethical part

John Dehlin [01:01:26] of it, because it's hard to find success in this area.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:01:33] Well, they. No, they could find success. There's plenty of people that sexually suppress and find success. So one aspect would be the time and energy, but the other aspect of it is that I'm not in the business of suppressing people's sexuality in unhealthy ways, and I do see this as doing that.

John Dehlin [01:01:54] So you see masturbation as somewhat healthy if done in the right bounds.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:02:01] Correct.

John Dehlin [01:02:01] Okay, what about the idea that if someone's married, if they have the right relationship, the right intimacy, that, you know, the occurrence of masturbation can decrease or be eliminated because the person is achieving full fulfillment within the marriage.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:02:23] Well, that's true. I mean, people who are sexually active in a healthy and generally happy relationship often don't find a need to masturbate. Oftentimes, couples who are married and content together will use masturbation as part of their, you know, tools to sexually pleasure themselves or to deal with libido differences. So masturbation can definitely be part of a healthy marriage. For a lot of people who are either overseas or, you know, travel frequently, masturbation and phone sex or things like that are ways that they can connect while being apart. So there's definitely. I'm not saying that masturbation doesn't play a role in marriage. I think where it's harmful in marriage is where it's being done in secret when it's being used as, you know, a coping mechanism to a sexless marriage, which, I mean, is one way to survive a sexless marriage. I'm not saying that that's necessarily incorrect, but I think that you can do better than that if both partners are willing to engage in a process of therapy together. And I think it's also not helpful when it's maybe tied to pornography, compulsive type habit, because that can happen even if you're having good sex in a marriage. So there's definitely times where sexuality is not being dealt in a healthy way. And masturbation or intercourse or whatever can be unhealthy because you're doing it in a way that's not edifying both people involved. And it's not taking your, you know, your needs into account in a way that it's in a healthy way. But to just attack masturbation for masturbation's sake is something I no longer want to play a role in.

John Dehlin [01:04:21] Right.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:04:22] And I think it damages our youth with the messages that we give them. And I think there's incredible levels of inappropriate shame attached to this. I have seen just in the last six months, two of our youth in our state be referred to addiction programs because they're masturbating, like, once a week. And I have seen several adolescents tell me that, well, it says it's next to murder in the scriptures. So to me, that's unethical.

John Dehlin [01:04:53] Right? Right. Yeah. I know you've thought a lot about this issue, and it's a very sensitive and important one to you. So I'm going to ask you a question that seems slightly confrontational, but I want to give you a chance to kind of explain and articulate how much you've thought deeply about this. So the question is, how do you sort of reconcile or work through the fact that you feel kind of strongly about an issue that, you know, an approach to, an issue that runs a bit counter to what church leaders are currently sort of recommending in a standard that church leaders are, are currently holding. My understanding of you is that this is not something that you would treat lightly, that you've thought a lot about this and would have some very good reasons and you wouldn't contradict church authorities sort of carelessly. So how do you work through that also as an active Mormon?

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:06:00] Yeah, and I appreciate that question because what I'm telling you today is probably a Good, you know, 15 to 20 years in the making as far as my thoughts towards this. And, and it isn't a decision I've taken lightly and I don't enjoy feeling or actually going against, you know, church leadership on, on certain issues. Having said that, I'm not sure that the church leadership is giving us clear direction on this topic. It's been a highly silent topic for about 30 years. And my understanding of church history is that when there's a topic that is going to kind of change, it tends to do so slowly and it tends to do so quietly. I can understand the reasons why that is. At the same time, I don't appreciate all the lives and getting caught in the middle of all of that kind of shift. I do think that the masturbation language in our church has changed dramatically. I haven't heard the word masturbation for a long time over the pulpit, probably since the 80s. And yes, we, you know, we, we still have it in the strength of, in the pamphlet for the strength of Youth. As far as like this kind of vaguer language, the word masturbation has been taken out of the Bishop's handbook.

John Dehlin [01:07:26] There's nothing, I've done a global word search of the Church Handbook of Instructions and it's nowhere in any of the Church Handbook of Instructions.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:07:35] Yeah. And there's nothing in our current training of bishops and stake presidents to have them ask our youth about masturbation. And yet they continue to do so at alarming rates. Highly. Because I believe that they were asked those questions and so that's just what they know or think that they should be doing. So I take issue with an organization that asks me to continually take a repentant stance and asks me to continually self evaluate and asks me to be willing to change and to see things from a different perspective and to look towards God, towards, you know, about things and that when I have had a wrong idea or wrong philosophy to repent from that and to take responsibility for that. So I see changes, but I don't see the full on coming out and taking responsibility for what we're teaching our youth regarding this issue. And therefore, you know, I believe that in 30 years this will be a non issue. I truly believe that we will no longer be talking about this. But there's a lot of kids that are going to be affected by this in the next 30 years and I'm not okay being part of that. I love my church. I love the leaders, I respect them. Doesn't mean I have to agree with them. And part of my sustaining them is in my book is to challenge this.

John Dehlin [01:09:07] Right. And I'll just sort of back up anecdotally what you're saying. In my experience, I've seen this lead to, you know, kids don't go on missions because of it. Even though there's lots of kids who do still masturbate and go on missions. And then when they don't go on missions, they reap. You know, it's often the honest ones that don't go on the missions because they don't lie about it. And then they experience a considerable amount of shame and ostracization and marginalization from their communities because they didn't go on missions. And people wonder why and judge them. And sometimes that can cause them to be disaffected from the church or to spiral into self loathing and depression. And I've honestly seen people frequently become suicidal, you know, or feel that they're not worthy to get married. Or like you said, their frequency, it almost becomes an addiction or compulsion for many because they're so wrapped up trying not to do it that they're doing it all the time. And so it really does wreck, in my experience, thousands and thousands of lives every year. So it's a really, it's a surprisingly serious issue.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:10:27] Well, and I can't tell you how many single adults have told me that they don't go to church because of this issue alone, that they don't feel worthy to take the sacrament and therefore they're not going to go to church. I can't tell you how many single adults, adolescents and married adults talk to me about masturbation when they are not talking to their bishops about masturbation because it's not a safe thing to be talking about. And like you said, usually the very honest, maybe more naive people are talking about it and then getting some consequences attached to that. Now that's not always the case. I've worked with many bishops who are extremely normalizing of masturbation, who, in fact, when I work with OCD clients and scrupulosity, I think it's part of my ethical treatment plan to actually work conjointly with the bishop because the bishop plays a huge role. So I see my role as educating that bishop and working together with that bishop to treat this client. And many, many times I have told bishops I will be asking this client to masturbate, and the bishop will say, okay, let's do it. Let's go for it. You know, I give permission for that. So I don't want to paint all bishops with one brush. But like you said very well, some kids are going and talking about this, and they're getting it normalized, and no big deal, go on your mission anyway. And yet, in the same church, in the same organization, really good kids are getting turned away or being sent to addiction treatment centers because of the same problem. So it's not. Of all the things that should be correlated. This is not correlated. It's because nobody's talking about it.

John Dehlin [01:12:11] Right. Last question about this. Are you aware of bishops that would let someone hold a temple, recommend or take the sacrament and masturbate? A bishop that just says, this is not an issue worthiness for me?

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:12:25] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:12:26] Many. Okay. So, you know, many bishops that are okay with masturbation.

Guest [01:12:30] Mm.

John Dehlin [01:12:31] Okay.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:12:32] Well, I wouldn't say okay in the sense like they're saying, no. I've never met a bishop that will say, oh, it's okay. Go do it. I don't consider it a sin, but they will normalize it and say, this is kind of, you know, something a lot of people struggle with and, you know, it's not that serious, and just, you know, worry about other things that you can be good at in your life and move on and still let

John Dehlin [01:12:56] people take the sacrament and go to the temple.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:12:59] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:13:00] Okay. That's important.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:13:04] Absolutely. If we kept everybody out of the temple who masturbates, I don't know who'd be going. So.

John Dehlin [01:13:09] Right.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:13:10] Same for missions, same for byu. I've got so many stories of byu, of good kids for getting kicked out, not because they're masturbating, but because they're presenting their masturbation as an addiction to the bishop who really doesn't understand how to ask appropriate questions to understand what's really going on with that kid. So the kid will come in saying, I'm addicted to masturbation. Therefore, you know, the bishop has probably an image of something going on that's not going on. When you start asking more detailed questions, that kid is masturbating once a month and those questions sometimes don't get asked and those kids have to leave byu. So it's I've had several clients, actually, where they get reinstated because the bishop comes to a better understanding of what's really going on.

John Dehlin [01:14:01] And again, the flip side, you're saying is true, that there are bishops who let kids go to byu, let kids go on missions, let people get married, let people go to the temple and still masturbate. Right?

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:14:12] Correct.

John Dehlin [01:14:13] Okay.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:14:14] And there are bishops who do not.

John Dehlin [01:14:16] Right?

Guest [01:14:18] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:14:22] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Music today was provided by the Saber Rattlers. Check them out@sabre-rattlers.com the Mormon Stories logo was generously donated by StudioCase.com thanks for listening.

Guest [01:14:37] Come, come ye saints. No toil nor labor fear but with joy wend your way though hard to you this journey may appear Grace shall be as your day Tis better far for us to strive Our useless cares from us to drive to the San Jo your hearts will swell. Oh, all is well, all is well. Why should we mourn? I think our lot is hard Tis not so all is right why should we think to earn a great reward Lord, if we now shun the fight Gird up your lo fresh courage take Our God will never us forsake soon we'll have this tale of tales oh, all is well, all is well oh, all is well all is well. Sam. And should we die before our journey is through Happy days All is well we that are free from toil and sorrow too with the just we shall dwell but if our lives are spared again There to see the saints the rest obtain I will make this ch swell. Oh, all is well, all is well all is well all is away well, all is well oh, all is well, All is well all is away Sa.

Part Two: Clarifying Addiction and Pornography

Part 2 of 3 · Ep. 390

John Dehlin [00:00:00] 1, 2, 3.

John Dehlin [00:00:07] Mormon Stories Podcast is a production of the Open Stories Foundation. All donations to Mormon Stories are fully tax deductible and go directly towards keeping the podcast alive and towards building a community of support for Mormons like you. To support the podcast or to join the community, please become a monthly subscriber today@mormonstories.org so, Natasha, let's loop back to the discussion of pornography for just a second. We've talked about masturbation. We started this topic by using the word addiction. But as I've dug a little bit more into this, there's a bit of a nuance. There's a difference between using terms like addiction and using terms like compulsions. And my guess is there's pornography use that isn't addictive or compulsive. And let's tease that out a little bit and then talk about whether, you know, this is gonna sound blasphemous to conservative listeners and even to myself, but ask whether, in your view, there's a place for pornography at all in the lives of someone who's lds.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:01:21] Okay, well, so let's start maybe with just re clarifying the word addiction, which in the past has mainly been used really for substance related disorders. In other words, you know, illicit drugs, alcohol, cigarettes, you know, things that affect us physiologically. All of the studies now with neuroscience show that because behaviors also obviously affect our neuropsychology. So there's a big debate within the mental health profession as to what behaviors other than substances can be qualified as an addiction. And so many mental health professionals are more comfortable maybe with the word compulsion. So maybe we can talk a little bit about those two words, addiction. For something to be addictive, there's kind of three parts that need to be present. So one is that you're building some type of a tolerance to the whatever it is that you're addicted to. So in other words, what used to be enough to make you feel better, now you need more of, there needs to be withdrawal. In other words, if you stop using a substance or stop, I guess, participating in a behavior, you have physical withdrawal symptoms that include, you know, for example, with heroin users, you know, they feel physically sick, they may even be nauseated and be shivering. And so there's physiological responses to a withdrawal. And then the third part is obviously kind of this craving, so a strong craving that kind of moves into compulsive behavior. So in other words, now I just, even if I don't want to be doing what I'm doing, I'm doing it anyway. So I'm kind of going against my own ideas of what my life should look like or what I want to be doing. So does that make sense with the addiction language?

John Dehlin [00:03:37] Yeah. And it's weird because, well, there's a couple of the things that I'm wondering if they need to be present. So in almost every DSM diagnosis, one of the requirements is that it is impeding someone's functioning in their daily life. Right. It's a significant obstruction to well being or functioning.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:04:00] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:04:01] Is that important?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:04:02] No, absolutely. And in fact, with true addicts, usually the behavior or the substance that they're addicted to is pretty much taking over every aspect of their life. So socially, you know, personally, they're occupationally, so, you know, they're taking risks that they would have never taken before. It's affecting every single aspect of their life. Their parenting? Yeah, anything you can think of.

John Dehlin [00:04:32] And then I would also assume then that there needs to be some sort of high level of frequency or pervasiveness of the activity, which is where I often sort of get confused when, when a client might present as an addict and then you find out they might look at porn and masturbate once a month or twice a month for 10 minutes, I'm like, wow, like, you know,

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:04:59] that's not an addiction. It's really, it's really almost daily that you have to be involved in these things for it to qualify as an addiction.

John Dehlin [00:05:09] So drinking heavily once a week might not count?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:05:14] No. There's plenty of people who drink who are not alcoholics.

John Dehlin [00:05:17] Or even getting drunk once a week, that doesn't make you an alcoholic, right?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:05:21] Not necessarily. When you start again, if you start, I mean, there's plenty of people who are socially driven to drink heavily once a week, especially in kind of our young populations, college aged, that's pretty normal. Even high school age, it's somewhat normal to see that. And by normal, I mean normative. It's happening a lot. And they're not necessarily forming into alcoholics because it's more of a social norm and it's part of the social life that the people are engaged in. But when, you know, a lot of times when you see the difference is that the college kids who can just keep that to the weekends, versus the college kid who is now coping with the stressors of college by starting to drink on Monday at noon, or not necessarily even drinking socially anymore, that's usually one of the steps towards alcoholism.

John Dehlin [00:06:19] Okay, so if somebody's just masturbating once a week or once every other week, to pornography. And it's 5, 10, 15, 20 minutes or even 45 minutes or an hour. That's a very different thing that may not reach the threshold of addiction versus someone who has to masturbate every day and might be looking at pornography 1, 2, 3 hours in a day. Right, right.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:06:46] And then taking risks, such as maybe looking at pornography at work or, you know, doing things that are going to really affect the quality of life of that person or they're no longer having sex with their spouse. Or it just. Yeah, it starts. It starts affecting their relationships and their work environments and their social environments. I mean, that's a very clear definition of addiction.

John Dehlin [00:07:12] Okay, so I can see. So you laid out three sort of criteria for addictive behavior. I could see pornography and masturbation fitting that description. For certain cases where, you know, the tolerance aspect is it takes more and more graphic or a longer duration or different types or fetishes of pornography to achieve the same type of arousal. Maybe it takes longer and longer to masturbate, to get the same outcome to reach orgasm. And I could see it. What were some of the other definitions? So there's a development of tolerance.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:07:56] Oh, withdrawals, cravings.

John Dehlin [00:07:57] I could see people. I mean, maybe someone could, if they didn't masturbate or look at porn at some point, start going into symptoms of withdrawal. Maybe not to the extent of, like shaking, you know, fever, cold spells, you know, need a blanket kind of stuff, but maybe anxiety or stress.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:08:20] Yeah, it's usually. That's absolutely correct. It's usually a withdrawal symptom of anxiety. That when we're, you know, when we rely on a behavior to cope, you have anxiety. It's true when you go on a diet. It's true when you try to change any type of behavior, you're not used to it. Your body doesn't like change, your mind doesn't like change. And so anxiety is increased and you get kind of tense or the jitters or nervous or just overall not feeling super great. I agree with that.

John Dehlin [00:08:53] So masturbation and pornography could be engaged with in a way that could qualify as an addiction, then, is the point you're making just that for most of the people that present, they don't reach that threshold.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:09:09] I would say, in an environment where pornography has been villainized and very much spoken of in a very fearful way as our church culture. Yes. It presents oftentimes as an addiction when it doesn't qualify for that type of a label. Okay, that does not mean. I want to clarify. That does not mean that if you're looking at pornography in a way that is non addictive, that it still is something you want to keep in your life. So I'm not saying that just because it's not an addiction that we don't want to address the behavior you're not happy with or that maybe your spouse isn't happy with.

John Dehlin [00:09:45] Right.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:09:46] I do think that it's unnecessarily labels people in ways that then their self esteem or their ideas about how much control they have over their behavior can be skewed if they're seeing this as an addiction.

John Dehlin [00:10:03] Okay, so there's a disadvantage to viewing non addictive behavior as addictive.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:10:09] Yes. And there's an advantage of seeing addictive behavior as addictive because then you understand that willpower and you know, the classic things that we think will change behaviors, which usually don't, are definitely very important when it comes to understanding true addiction.

John Dehlin [00:10:35] It's treated differently.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:10:37] Sure. Yeah, yeah. And there's, I mean, there's no, like, it's very difficult to have a clear delineation between these things. It's not like I've got a magic measurement tool where I can say, oh yeah, you're definitely on this side versus that side. But generally that's part of an assessment is getting a clear idea of where you do stand and what kinds of. So I mean, if you have unhealthy coping behaviors, okay, that's fine, but that's not necessarily an addiction.

John Dehlin [00:11:13] Is there a benefit to introducing the notion of compulsion versus addiction into this discussion?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:11:26] Well, I think compulsive behavior is different. It can lead to different diagnoses. So again, maybe these things are more beneficial for us in the mental health feel to understand the differences of. But I think obviously if you're suffering from some of these things, I would want to know the differences between these things.

John Dehlin [00:11:46] Would you treat someone with a compulsion differently than if they had an addiction?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:11:54] I would say. Well, it's so individualized, it's hard to answer that question. I would say that definitely as far. Yes, I would say yes, because addiction. I would definitely encourage the treatment of addiction to include group therapy. That has been shown to be probably the best treatment for addiction.

John Dehlin [00:12:21] So it's like 12 step programs. Alcohol is anonymous, things like that, whereas

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:12:28] compulsive behavior, not so much. And of course, if, if I'm seeing somebody who is villainizing themselves as an addict, when that's not necessarily the case, then that's. I'm not treating that person for addiction. I'm treating that person for, you know, educational reasons and also for self esteem reasons and normalizing kind of their, just their life experience. So that's very different from addictions treatment.

John Dehlin [00:12:57] So you're saying labeling, labeling yourself as an add additional shame that could contribute to a certain type of behavior, to maintaining it, making it worse.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:13:08] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:13:09] Real quick, the church has put together these 12 step programs to deal with addictions. And I think that's where a lot of this language comes from. These people who come in, who present, who say, I'm an addict, I've been sober for three weeks and they're talking about masturbating once a month. I get a sense that that comes from these 12 step programs that the church kind of co opted. Are you aware of these programs and do you have any opinion about whether they're good or bad or useful or not useful?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:13:42] Well, I think that like any 12 step programs, I think yes, they can be incredibly useful. And I think that, I mean, I'm aware of them and I support them and I know many members who feel very comfortable there. I know one of, probably one of the reasons why the church, you know, came up with this versus just relying on programs that already exist, you know, just out there in our communities, is that you do get a more. What do I want to say? I mean, for example, I am aware that if you go to an AA meeting where it has to do with, you know, maybe stopping alcohol or stopping illicit drugs, you're more than likely going to encounter other things that maybe LDS people might be uncomfortable with. For example, people kind of will substitute one addiction for another. And a very popular thing to substitute out is cigarettes. So it's not illegal and it doesn't ruin your life in the sense of socially, it ruins your lungs, but it doesn't ruin a lot of other things. So a lot of addicts will become chronic smokers and you know, traditional LDS members may not be comfortable in that type of environment. Another thing that's very much, I think part of the culture and other types of anonymous meetings are sharing a lot of detail about their addiction and about where they've been in their life and where they're going. That doesn't necessarily fit into our Mormon culture. We, you know, even if you think about testimony meetings, we don't share our sordid details of where we've been. You know, we're very happy about where we're going and the progress that we've made. And we make those statements kind of in general terms. The only time I hear at a testimony meeting, oh, you know, I just Quit smoking or. I'm so glad that, you know, cut down on my alcohol consumption as converts. Very new converts to the church.

John Dehlin [00:15:48] Right, right. So overall, these 12 step programs, you're saying are generally good, the ones that the church supports in your.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:15:57] I mean, I think there's pros and cons to everything. I think that they're generally good. I think that there's somewhat. I mean, I know a lot of clients who've complained about, you know, when you're in a room full of other members, it's difficult from a confidentiality standpoint. So a lot of members are not comfortable going because they don't want to meet other members there that they know personally. So that's difficult. And I know that because they're not talking. They're not supposed to talk about what they're particularly addicted to. You just go and you go through the steps that's supposed to apply to all these different behaviors. And so you don't get a sense of really what other people's stories are and really talk about, you know, I mean, there's pros and cons about talking about details. And then I think the biggest con in my book as far as a professional, is that I think there are people going to those groups that the information may not be completely applicable to because they're not addicts. So, I mean, the 12 step program is a beautiful kind of philosophy of life, and anybody can go and find value in those teachings. But if you're labeling yourself as an addict when you're not an addict and you're trying to apply these things to your life as an addict would, then I see a problem with that. For example, you know, a teenage boy who's been referred to this program because he's masturbating once or twice a month, I see that as problematic because he's shaming himself and he's trying to change a behavior that I don't. I don't see as necessary to change.

John Dehlin [00:17:40] Right, got it. Okay.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:17:42] And they're seeing, especially these sexual behaviors are being seen as, oh, well, I do have a craving, you know, so, oh, that means I'm addicted. And I'm like, no, that's your biological drive that is naturally giving you a craving at certain times of the month because that's how your body works.

John Dehlin [00:17:59] Right. Do men have a. Do men. You know, I heard once someone ask another who was slipping up in the sexual arena, it was a male asking a female, did your slip up happen while you were ovulating? Is there any monthly cycle that happens to women or men, that affects libido and that could affect one's proneness towards menomasterbation or other types of sexual things that you're aware of.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:18:35] Well, obviously for women, all the hormonal effects are very much tied to our menstrual cycles. And so, yes, there tends to be, in general, a spike of libido during ovulation for many women. Not for all women. But for many women, they notice that, um, men also have hormonal shifts and drives. They're just not, as, you know, they're just not on a monthly basis and they're not as easily noticed by men. So they're there. They just. I just don't think that they get a lot of attention or that we would even know how to understand them. But biological drive, I mean, most of us, when it comes to sexuality, have a certain amount of time that goes by until we kind of feel horny again. So that can be from one day to three weeks to. Yeah, it can be very varied for different people. And oftentimes that's what I, you know, when people come in for libido differences or sexuality issues, I try to have them pay attention to that. So when is your body asking for this? You know, how often does your body kind of get into this mode where you're feeling kind of like you would like a sexual release? And most people, you know, can come back and answer that after paying attention

John Dehlin [00:19:59] to that for a while, what their natural drive is.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:20:04] Right.

John Dehlin [00:20:04] Okay, real quick. Pornography. So, you know, I don't. I don't look at pornography. I have looked at it, you know, in the past. Not in any heavy way, but, you know, there have been times where I was curious about it or. Or even looked at it, even in times when I kind of didn't feel like I should, but I looked at it anyway. And that's something that isn't appealing to me anymore. So it might sound as sort of this really strange question. Why would someone LDS even ask this question? Is there any place for pornography in the life of someone who is committed to the LDS Church or involved in the LDS Church? And if so, what might that be?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:20:54] Well, I'm wondering if you mean by place, if there's something healthy about pornography or some way that pornography could be used in a healthy way? I mean, as an LDS member myself, and also as a mental health professional, there's not a lot of pros that I see to pornography. I think pornography has always been part of the human, I guess, predicament in some level or Another. And I think that there's some normal responses we have when we're just. When we, when we have access to pornography or when we view pornography. I think if you're going to see something pornographic, you're probably going to have some type of natural arousal or curiosity. I think that there's normative things that lead us to having experiences with pornography. But does that make it something that should be part of our lives or that, you know, we could integrate into our lives in a healthy way? I don't necessarily think there's a place for that. I do think that there are people who don't necessarily share our values, who have pornography be a part of their lives and are not necessarily completely scarred from that or turned into addicts or. A lot of times we talk about the slippery slope and there's plenty of people who look at pornography with their spouse or their spouse is aware that they look at pornography. It's not a big deal and they kind of. It's just part of their sexual contract amongst that couple. And it doesn't really end up being super problematic for people. At the same time, I think there's really huge issues with pornography as far as. Well, let me think of my list. My main issue with pornography is that it's very male centric. It's very much about pleasing the male. The plot stories are really pretty awful. There's really no relational kind of, I guess, example. Usually body image wise, it's pretty awful because first of all, the women are. Other than their breasts, they're really made to look very youthful almost in a weird way. For example, most vulvas and vaginas shown in pornography are very childlike and are not indicative of what most vulvas and vaginas look like.

John Dehlin [00:23:25] Oh, I had no idea.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:23:28] And also shaved, you know, so there's no hair. Which is also an adult type of trend that as we get older we get hairier. But there's no hair in pornography.

John Dehlin [00:23:42] I've heard about shaving, but I've never made that connection to it being more childlike. That seems kind of awful to me as I think about that.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:23:54] Well, yeah, I mean, most especially women who have. I mean, there's a huge movement in the plastic surgery world of women who are going in and getting what they call labial plastectomy or something along those lines. Because I think that they're seeing these shows and those vulvas and that whole genital area looks very different from what it looks like for most women. And most, if you look. Well, I'M a sex therapist. I've been exposed to a lot of different pornography just in my training. So I want to just put that out there as to why I know these things. But if you look at the vulvas of women in porn, generally the labia are very small and very tidy and neat. Whereas most women, or many women have labia that are larger, their lips are larger. If you have lips that are larger and you're looking at these women in porn movies, you can think, my goodness, there's something wrong with me. Then not only that, but men who look at pornography can be taken aback by the woman that they're with and be like, oh, my goodness, that's not what I expected. And can be. Can even support plastic surgery of normal labia because it doesn't look the way it's supposed to look. So that's hugely. Body image issues with pornography are huge and very problematic.

John Dehlin [00:25:27] Right.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:25:29] Everybody is usually very fat. Muscular men have the average size penis, I think, is somewhere between three and a half inches and six and a half inches. And I think that porn stars. Trying to remember my numbers here, but I think the average porn star penis is about anywhere from 6 to 10 inches. So larger than. So again, the expectations. Some men are like, oh, my goodness, there's something wrong with my penis size. And then also there's injections given and medicine taken that help erections stay longer during pornography. So the whole thing is just fake sex and fake intimacy and it's not real. And the communication is horrible. You know, I'm like, okay, that's lame. After a while, I mean, where's the talking and where's the. There's just. The whole thing is just not. It's very, very poor sexual education. And if that's our expectation or if that's. Especially as teenagers, when we're usually first. We first encounter pornography and that's our first sexual kind of experience, is to say, oh, this is what it's like. This is what it's supposed to be like. It can really set people up for inappropriate ways of thinking about their own sexual lifestyle and their spouse and their own self image, what they're supposed to look like and act like during a sexual encounter. And then the industry. The industry is a whole other problem for me.

John Dehlin [00:27:05] Just the exploitation and the disease and all that kind of stuff.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:27:10] Well, and the fact that most people who are involved in that industry, I think when they're really interviewed and asked questions, I think the number is as high as 90% have had sexual trauma in their past.

John Dehlin [00:27:25] So it's sort of exploiting a group who is already vulnerable.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:27:30] Yeah, I think so. I mean, there are companies that do a much better job with those kinds of issues than others. But I don't know that you can really guarantee that whatever video you're watching. I mean, there's a huge sex slave trade in the world still. And I don't know how you make sure that the porn you're looking at is regulated. I mean, it's illegal still activity in most places, and so it's not like there's a regulation committee coming in making sure everything's done right.

Marital Dysfunction in LDS Couples

John Dehlin [00:27:59] Okay, what are the main causes of marital dysfunction with the LDS couples that you tend to see?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:28:09] Well, I think in general, probably the main dysfunction that happens for couples is communication. Now, that can be translated to all different kinds of topics. You know, money is a big topic for people. Sexuality is a big topic for people. Parenting differences. So there's all different kinds of problems that can present, but it's usually how people are communicating about those topics that is causing significant distress in people's lives.

John Dehlin [00:28:45] Okay, so communication is a big thing. There are other typical causes like finances and sex and in laws. I suspect that LDS people sort of have the same general types of issues that other people do. True.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:29:06] Yes, I would agree with that. And we have similar, I believe, somewhat similar statistics as far as divorce. And we do tend to get married younger still than the general population. I think among Temple marriages, the divorce rate is lower, but I'm not sure it's completely significantly lower than the national divorce rate.

John Dehlin [00:29:33] Right. Okay.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:29:36] So children, which children are stressful.

John Dehlin [00:29:41] Okay, so maybe we're a little bit better. Temple married Mormons are a little bit better than national average in terms of divorce, but still lots of divorce. And if not divorce, still a lot of marital dysfunction, right?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:29:53] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:29:54] So what do you do for that?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:29:58] Well, I want to just clarify really quick. You know, when we say better because we're not getting divorced, it villainizes divorce. I'm not so sure that that's necessarily a good thing. Divorce, I think, serves a purpose. And I know that we tend to, as a culture, think of the good old days when, you know, the divorce rate was much lower. But really, that divorce rate being lower was not indicative of better marriages. It was indicative of lesser choice. So I think divorce definitely plays an important role in our society and gives people choices that for a large part of human, I guess, experience we haven't had. And we still see that. I mean, Afghanistan has a very low divorce rate, but I'm not sure that we would say that they.

John Dehlin [00:30:50] Or Saudi Arabia or.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:30:53] So I think divorce has its place. And I think there's a lot of myths about divorce. Usually people see it as an easy way out. You hear that a lot. And the research on divorce is that people who generally get divorced have been thinking about it for seven to 12 years. That's a long time to be miserable.

John Dehlin [00:31:12] Right?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:31:12] It's not usually an easy way out. And usually the there's children complicate that decision immensely. People don't want to get divorced because they know that it's going to have a negative effect on their children. And so they'll either put up with behaviors or put up with being miserable because they want to do the right thing by them. So I just worry about those members in our church who have gone through a divorce and what it must feel like for them when these kind of myths get thrown around, like marriage is the total ideal. And I also see people who don't get divorced who really are not being a good example of marriage either, but we don't tend to villainize those people.

When to Consider Divorce

John Dehlin [00:31:54] Okay, so when. I guess it's weird to talk about divorce before we talk about healthy marriage, but let's do it. When do you kind of. What's the threshold for you where you start recommending divorce versus trying to work through it? I imagine physical sexual abuse would be a part of it, or abuse of the children or the spouse. But are there some general guidelines you have for whether or not a marriage is even worth saving or not?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:32:31] I am very cautious, as I think most mental health professionals try to be, about recommending divorce. I don't know that I've ever done that. And I think probably the language that I use instead is seeing your body language, seeing the issues that you're bringing to my table. Here's my prognosis for your marriage. So I think you've got a fair prognosis, a good prognosis, a poor prognosis. But the decision, that's a very, very personal decision. And I would feel very outside of my boundaries recommending that decision to anyone because there's lots of things that go into the decision to get married to a person, and many, many of those things are subconscious. And we also know statistically that second and third divorces do statistically much poorer than first marriages do. So for example, when we say just

John Dehlin [00:33:32] to make sure, you said second or third divorces, you meant second or third marriages, Is that right?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:33:37] See, I do this with my vocab sometimes.

John Dehlin [00:33:39] No, no, no, no. No, I just want to make sure I understood. It's not to correct you, but.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:33:44] So, for example, we think that the divorce rate is 50%, which is somewhat misleading because first marriages have a divorce rate, I believe, of about 32%. All of my numbers, by the way, I'm picking out of my brain. So I'm sure they're a little bit different. But it's second marriages that go up to like 60 something percent and third marriages that go up to like 70 or 80% chance of divorce. So it's somewhat misleading to say, oh, well, you're going to have a 50, 50 chance if you get married. It's better than that.

John Dehlin [00:34:21] So if you get divorced, the chances are you'll get divorced again with your second partner.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:34:27] The chance that odds are kind of against you. That doesn't mean that there aren't plenty of wonderful second marriages. I'm not trying to discour anybody from getting married a second or even third time, and I'm not trying to even discourage divorce by saying that. What I'm saying is that there are subconscious things that we bring to a marriage from our past. You know, we fall into patterns with our spouse, we fall into kind of communication ruts. And half of those problems is we bring to that. The other half is our spouses. If we don't work through those things, if we don't take ownership for those things, the chances of those things continuing in a second or third relationship are pretty high because you're still bringing half of the equation with you and you're still going to be attracted to similar people. So that's probably the biggest pull for therapy throughout these times. And that's how often I work with couples who come in and are really on the fence as to whether or not they should stay married. I usually say something along the lines of, okay, well, give me three to six months. And the goal won't necessarily be staying married if you're really wanting out, but the goal is to figure out, what have we fallen into? What role am I playing in this so that that can be addressed and not repeated in the future. So best case scenario, that marriage improves and we can consider trying to stay in this marriage in a much more healthy way. Worst case scenario, the marriage doesn't improve, we're still going to divorce, but we both are leaving this therapy process, knowing what role I played in this and what patterns I was a part of and being more careful, you know, to recognize red flags moving forward.

John Dehlin [00:36:25] Right. So there's a lot of personal work that if it isn't done can jeopardize any future marriage that sometimes we look over when we think about the grass being greener.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:36:40] Correct? Right.

John Dehlin [00:36:41] Yeah. Okay.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:36:44] Research out there to show that, you know, some people do regret getting a divorce, or some people, the fantasy didn't quite pan out the way they should. So there is some research showing that people who made that decision without really giving it, like a therapy effort. And by a therapy effort, I don't mean going three times and saying, well, we tried marriage therapy. I'm talking about a six month intensive, at least six month intensive, weekly appointments with somebody who's really trained to do that type of work. I'm sorry, I lost my train of thought. But if they don't do that, then oftentimes, you know, 10 years down the road when things haven't turned out the way they had fantasized or hoped they would, they can regret having made that decision of divorce. So there's a lot of things that happen with divorce that are very unfortunate. I mean, for a huge part of that is financial stability goes way down for both partners. And usually the woman is more affected by that than the man. But really their financial stability hurts both of them. And of course, children complicate that decision. And so I think that any marriage is worth trying to save, and I think that a good effort should be put into that. But I also believe that there is room for making that decision at some point.

John Dehlin [00:38:09] Okay, so what I'm hearing you say is we shouldn't think divorce is bad. We should not have a stigma for divorce. There are instances where divorce is probably best, especially if A, someone's done their own work, B, the marriage, you know, a good effort has been made to try to save the marriage if it's worth saving or if there's some severe circumstances that just are unbearable. But in general, when there's two reasonable people acting in good faith who haven't done the work but are willing to try, both personally and as a couple, you say, give it a try. The odds of being happier in the long run are probably with preserving your first marriage over jumping to a second, third, fourth.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:39:10] Yes, the odds are in that favor.

John Dehlin [00:39:12] Yeah. Okay. Okay, so let's talk about marital therapy for a second. Now, is it true that men are less likely to want to come to couples therapy?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:39:21] Yeah, I think there's some research to support that. Is that your experience therapy in general? I think it's just not. Women are socialized to talk more than men are so comfortable in that arena than men in general. But I Don't know. I've had in my own practice, I've had a little bit of both. I've had women dragging their husbands in. I've had husbands dragging their wives in. And I've had probably more than not, especially in the Mormon culture, both kind of readily coming. I think that that's one thing that we're fairly good at as Mormons is what we're doers. We want to try, we want to improve. So more often than not, I get Mormon couples who are both very committed to the process.

John Dehlin [00:40:10] Okay, good. And what are the main. So are there. I can think of one specific scenario that I'm seeing a lot about divorce. But before I launch into that, are there some specific scenarios, some templates to a classic stage in life or phase in life or phases that you kind of see as common scenarios that lead to the precipice of divorce? So, for example, there's the midlife crisis. Are there. Are there. Maybe there's something going on when. When there's newlyweds. So what are the typical scenarios that usually lead to the need for therapy that you've seen?

Couples Therapy and Common Relationship Patterns

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:41:03] Well, I think, again, with my clientele being largely Mormon, a big piece of couples therapy that comes through my office is sexuality. So pornography. If the husband has, or the wife has any type of involvement with pornography, that usually is seen as serious enough to start therapy. I have seen some newlyweds where, you know, again, in Mormon culture, we tend to get married fairly soon. Our engagements and time of courting tends to be shorter than others because we're not being sexual before marriage in general, and that's difficult. So people get married and then all of a sudden, the first year or two before they've had children, generally they're running into issues of incompatibility they were not prepared for. So there's that. I do think that we go through general developmental phases. You mentioned midlife crisis. I like to call it a midlife transition because I think that they're really can be very positive things that we all go through. At around age 35 to 45, we're kind of in a developmental phase where we're reevaluating where we are in life. And oftentimes, you know, things have either not panned out the way we thought or we are. Even if we're pleased with where we are, we, you know, there's time to assess whether we want to be doing something different. And, you know, by this time, we've been married generally 10 to 20 years and have had children, and the stressors of children. And so a lot of that can play into. And we're starting to lose our feelings of youth. And so that can play out in really positive ways and really negative ways for people. And having to readjust in that developmental phase as a couple is pretty normal. I think we're going to talk about faith transitions and obviously that's a big reason why people come see me as a marriage in a marriage form, because maybe the faith or testimony or level of activity that they had in their early 20s, right now, in their 30s or 40s, and if they go through that at the same time as a couple or one has very different ideas than another, then that can be very scary for both that means to their family and especially parenting and what that means from, you know, in Mormon language and eternal perspective. So those are some.

John Dehlin [00:43:41] What about just cheating?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:43:44] Yeah, I get some of that. I don't get a lot of that, but I do get that as well. I have infidelity cases.

John Dehlin [00:43:50] I would think that with Facebook and kind of social media that incidences of cheating would be on the rise. But you're saying you are not seeing that?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:44:04] I'm not necessarily seeing that in my practice. I think that cyber sex and cyber relationships are definitely on the rise. And then of course we can get into the whole discussion of what is infidelity. I guess some people would even consider pornography infidelity. Some people would consider cybersex not infidelity. Some people, you know, those are not necessarily things I agree with. I'm just saying there's a whole range of definitions nowadays, right? What need to have an affair and there's emotional affairs, you know, and things like that that we've coined language for. So there's definitely some of that that I get into my office. I wonder sometimes if the reason why I don't see more of that is because I think at some level, my being an LDS therapist, if people know that they may not be comfortable coming to an LDS therapist just because of biases, they may think I have comfortable seeing somebody who's not of our faith and who won't place judgments they feel I might place because I am lds. So that's always a possibility too.

John Dehlin [00:45:21] So I know every marriage is different in that, you know, you say it's a six month to a year process for some of these couples to really get to a better place. But if you had, you know, some guidance as to what the main things are that you target in marital therapy, or even if you have sort of like top five or ten recommendations to a couple to get better. You know, what are the main things that you work on in therapy?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:45:51] Probably two good books that would qualify How I work with couples are John Gottman's work and his. He has like seven principles of making a marriage better or something along those lines. John Gottman, you can look him up. There's also Hold Me Tight by Boy, Her Name Escapes me, Sue Johnson. So those are both probably the best researchers out there where their marital like work and theory ideas, but they're actually being tested with scientific evidence. And a lot of that has to do. A lot of their work has to do with attachment. A lot of their work has to do with communication. A lot of it has to do with process, Learning how to be an active listener, learning how to validate your spouse's experience, learning how to stand up for yourself if you don't know how to do that. You know, taking into account obviously intergenerational patterns and things that we bring with us that sometimes we're not aware we're bringing with us, those are all things that, you know, in a very general broad stroke, I would say is what I'm doing in couples work. I try to focus on the four, what I call the four intimacies. So where are you guys at emotionally? As far as emotional closeness? Where are you guys at intellectually? And I guess what I mean by that is like common interests or finding each other interesting still. I talk about spiritual intimacy, which is different than religious intimacy, but it can include that. And then obviously physical intimacy. And physical intimacy being a lot more than just sex. So those are kind of four broad areas I try to assess each couple with and see where they're at. Most of us are good at about two or three of those, and we kind of stink at one or two of them right in life too. So, for example, with a faith transition couple, they may have had their spiritual intimacy was a huge foundation for them, and then that's crumbled away and it's leaving a huge blank. And so now they're know emotional intimacy has to increase or something else, you know, has to make up for that.

John Dehlin [00:48:06] And tell me the four again. There's physical, emotional, spiritual, and what's the fourth Intellectual.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:48:13] Intellectual that I've come up with? I mean, there's no. I'm sure that you could come up with more or less, but those are four things that I tend to use with couples I work with.

John Dehlin [00:48:25] And let's say, you know, let's say there's someone who's gotten to the point where you know, whether it's been a crisis of faith or some breach in marital trust or a midlife crisis or, you know, any big disruption, maybe there's a death of a child or something. But let's say that, let's say that someone's gotten caught in the narrative of, I don't know that I should have ever married this person. We've been married 15 years and it's just we're not really best friends and the sex isn't that good and you know, we're not really close. It feels more like a business arrangement, you know. You know, whatever that mindset can be where you just. And let's say on top of that you meet, you know, you meet somebody else and you think, wow, they really understand me. They would be really exciting, you know, life would be so much better, you know, can marital work, can marriage therapy help someone move from that mindset, which my guess isn't completely uncommon, to a mindset where the person is saying, wow, I love my spouse, I wouldn't leave them for the world. I love being with him or her, and this is the best thing ever. After reaching a stage where they were questioning whether there was even any value for them at all. Have you seen marital therapy really work?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:50:04] Yes, absolutely, I have. In fact, that's probably a good, I guess, description of non dramatic distress. You know, there hasn't really been anything dramatically wrong like an affair or death in the family or something. But it's a general dissatisfaction with our marriage. You know, like it wasn't all I thought it was going to be. You know, we have these expectations, especially in Western culture, of soulmate love. And, you know, it just. We've been stressing out about our kids and our finances and mortgage payments and all that for however many years. And the spice has kind of died out. And maybe I'm not as attracted to you as I used to be. Maybe I'm not happy with myself. You know, all kinds of things can lead to just general disaffection, which is a general feeling. It doesn't necessarily have to involve a big in or a big event. And so I think that, yes, marriage therapy can very much help in this regard. First of all, from an educational standpoint and normalizing these experiences, I mean, if you're going to spend 50 years with a person, there's going to be a lot of different kind of phases of the time you're going to spend together. And also kind of educating about the power of new relationships. You know, when you think about a new relationship, is Never. You're never going to be able to compete with the hormonal fluctuations that your brain goes through in a new relationship. That's why infidelity is so powerful, because it's like going on a vacation to Bermuda or something. That's just not going to compare to, you know, living in kind of your suburbia, Wichita, Kansas or something. You know, it's just more boring or more routine. But the vacation is exciting and adventure and it reminds you of how you felt when you were younger. And so all of that is very powerful. So you can't compete with that. But the problem with that is that no vacation stays a vacation. You know, even if you go live in Hawaii or in Bermuda, all of a sudden, if you've been there for 10 years, you're gonna. It's not going to have that same excitement either. So. And you know, people generally can gravitate towards understanding those things if they're in a setting that is supportive of them and is supportive of their relationship and of their marriage. Whereas when you're just kind of in the humdrum of life in your home, you can get very carried away by those kinds of fantasies, if that makes sense.

John Dehlin [00:52:51] And so you're saying this sort of grass is greener. Wow. I've met someone who really gets me and I'm really attracted to him. That wears off for most people.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:53:02] Well, it doesn't stay at where it is during what we call the honeymoon period. I mean, if you really go back and look at the first relationship that you're currently in, you probably had similar feelings. You know, why is it that 20 years later you've lost that spice of life? And so it is kind of just normalizing that as long term relationships go through different phases and working at the courtship, I mean, and you know, Mormonism does actually a pretty good job of talking about this kind of stuff. You know, go on a date night and, you know, continue to woo each other. I mean, you hear those messages, you know, coming from general conference talks or general lessons, and those are good things to be told, that we constantly need to be working on. The relationship that we have with our spouse. It's not just something that happens naturally or spontaneously or magically or soul matey. That makes sense.

John Dehlin [00:54:04] Right?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:54:07] So, but when we first meet somebody, the chemical drive to connect with somebody, that first kiss, that first sexual experience, I mean, those are very heightened moments that over time lose that heightened level regardless of who you're with. And that's why for some people, infidelity can be kind of a Chronic problem because they'll get that kind of high and then it'll wear off with that person and then they'll move on to, you know, the next relationship which offers that same high of first love. You know, first. The first feelings are pretty powerful things, right?

John Dehlin [00:54:50] Right.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:54:51] The stability and the, the feeling stable with somebody and feeling like somebody's got your back and feeling like you, you know, good, you know that person, you know, how they work sexually and emotionally. And I mean, that is also a huge benefit. And many, many married couples report that. So that actually married people report being happier than non married people. So there's not, I'm not saying that that high is so great we're never going to have it again. Now, there's other things that are really great about long term relationships that offer us a lot of other types of prose.

John Dehlin [00:55:32] Right. And of course there's the notion that one may think that someone that has caught their eye, you know, is the bee's knees and the cat's meow, when in reality they're not until they're living together and fully engaged in all that entails, a marriage or a partnership, do they get the full picture of what that relationship really is and who that person really is and what the differences are. And sometimes it really can be a fantasy land that is not grounded at all in reality. Is that also what you've experienced?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:56:15] Exactly right. So you're going to have some of the same, I guess, disappointments or the same process of, you know, having to come down off of this high with whomever you stay with in a long term relationship. So. But again, I'm not going to say that there aren't second marriages who aren't, you know, much better off than first marriages because that happens as well. So I'm not saying, you know, stay in a bad marriage or a chronically abusive marriage because, you know, all marriages kind of have this down, these down phases. I'm not saying that either. I'm just saying you really have to be very careful about figuring out what it is that you're really looking for and putting that all on another person. For one, you know, this other person is going to make me happy. When oftentimes it's really the only person who has control over that is ourselves and then having realistic expectations about what long term marital relationship, love and commitment and trust and just healthy relationships can offer you. And they're not going to offer you necessarily what you get the first three months you're dating somebody, but they offer you a lot of other things that are really wonderful too right.

John Dehlin [00:57:43] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Music today was provided by the Saber Rattlers. Check them out@sabre-rattlers.com the Mormon Stories logo was generously donated by StudioCase.com thanks for listening.

John Dehlin [00:57:59] Come come ye saints no toil nor labor fear but with joy wend your way though hard to you this journey may appear Grace shall be as your day Tis better far for us to stride Our useless cares from us to drive do the San Jo your hearts will swell oh, all is well, all is well. Why should we mourn? I think our lot is high Tis not so, all is right why should we think to earn a great reward if we now shun the fight? Gird up your loans Fresh courage take our God will ever us forsake soon we'll have let's tell it tales oh, all is well, all is well oh, all is well all is as well. Sam. And should we die before our journey's through happy day all is well we then are free from toil and Pharaoh too With the just we shall dwell but if our lives are spared again to see the saints the rest obtain I will make this chorus swell oh, oh, all is well, all is well all is well all is well, all

John Dehlin [01:01:55] is well

John Dehlin [01:01:59] oh, is well. All in the way, all in the way.

Part Three: Sexual Issues in Marriage

Part 3 of 3 · Ep. 391

John Dehlin [00:00:00] 1, 2, 3.

John Dehlin [00:00:07] Mormon Stories Podcast is a production of the Open Stories Foundation. All donations to Mormon Stories are fully tax deductible and go directly towards keeping the podcast alive and towards building a community of support for Mormons like you. To support the podcast or to join the community, please become a monthly subscriber today@mormonstories.org. well, let's talk quickly about something that I know you've studied in depth, and that's sexual differences with a couple, whether it's libido differences, arousal disorder for one or both in a partner, and just generally enjoying and maximizing sexual fulfillment in a marriage. Do you see that a lot? Is that something you can actually get therapy for?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:00:58] Oh, yeah, for sure. And I do see it a lot. And I see it a lot even in couples that don't come in originally for that problem. So it's. I mean, sexuality is such a huge part of our relationships. In fact, I see it as unethical as a marriage and therapist to not ask about that, even if it's not what's coming up and what they're bringing to the table is their initial complaints. So I think it's definitely something that's important to assess and understand where they're at in that department. But then there's a lot of people who come in just for those reasons. Generally they have a good marriage or they have things that are working well for them, but in this one area, they just are really struggling and oftentimes don't understand why. And it's difficult to talk about this again with a broad stroke because there's so many individual experiences and, and it's probably difficult for me to talk about it without the bias of the Mormon culture because that's where I work primarily. So primarily in my practice, I probably have more of the man being the high libido partner and the woman being the low libido partner, which is somewhat a cultural issue, not just a biological issue. And. But again, I don't want to just talk about it in those terms because I know there are many marriages where the woman is the higher libido partner. And I don't want women feeling like they're weird or different or perverse or who knows what they say to themselves because they're the higher libido partner. So.

John Dehlin [00:02:37] Right.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:02:38] Differences of libido are pretty common just for anybody. You're not going to have the same libido that your partner has. You're not in the same body that your partner's in. But I think that problems that arise in our culture is one that sexual drive is somewhat villainized. So if you want sex more than your partner does, then, well, why are you such, you know, a natural man? Or, you know, why are you letting your passions drive your. Your life so much? You know, so you get those kinds of messages from spouses who truly believe that, but who are not dealing with those higher drives and so don't really know what that's like. And you do get, obviously, the shutdown of sexual exploration from a very early age in our culture. And therefore, it's hard to know how to turn that back on. For many women, it's hard to know how to have an orgasm because masturbation has been either not explained or, you know, actually discouraged. And so many women don't know how to explore their own bodies and feel very uncomfortable with. With those kinds of things. Again, many men feel ashamed of their sexuality as well, because maybe they did masturbate. Maybe they did have some problems with. Well, I'm not gonna say problems, but some experience with pornography at a young age. And then that was problematized. So it wasn't normalized. It was seen as, oh, yeah, now you have an addiction, or you can't, you know, go on your mission because of this, or you can't do this or that. There's a lot of shame they're carrying about their sexual drive. Oftentimes, men are not being honest with their wives about their sexual drive because they feel like there's something wrong with them for having that type of drive, and they don't. You know, a lot of Mormon men are really very caring for their wives, and so they don't want to put their wives in a position of being uncomfortable. And, you know, I don't want to make, you know, force her to have sex or anything like that. I hear that a lot. So, again, I mean, there's just so many different scenarios that it's hard to pin down just one problem. Then you have more traditional scenarios that lots of people encounter, like, you know, painful sex, so, you know, vaginismus and problems that may have biological reasons attached to them. Maybe not. So those are more clinical type of issues. And really, probably the biggest piece of sex therapy is to explore that, though all these things in a safe arena allow the couple to learn how to communicate about sexuality. We are awful as an. As a culture at large and awful as a Mormon culture having any type of example of how you have sexual conversations that we just don't role model that at all. Starting from public sex education to Pornography to, you know, religious kind of language around sexuality. It's just we're very poor at that. Is it as just in general

John Dehlin [00:06:04] and talking about things is generally good. I'm taking.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:06:08] I'm taking it extremely liberating for people to have certain questions asked. And I never thought of that before or just understanding. I mean, a lot of it is educational. Understanding our anatomy, it's amazing the things we don't know about our own anatomy, specifically females. I mean, I remember taking an anatomy class in college and learning things that I thought were pretty basic that I was shocked I didn't know already just about labia. Like that had never been taught to me before.

John Dehlin [00:06:48] Right.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:06:49] So, I mean, I knew vagina, I knew clitoris, I knew even vulva. But, you know, just there's like 50 other parts to the women, genitalia I don't think women are taught about. So understanding that, understanding arousal, understanding, you know, the fact that vaginal intercourse is not that successful for women to have orgasm. I think the number is 70% of women do not have penile vaginal orgasm.

John Dehlin [00:07:27] How much of that is because the husband or the wife don't know what to do or how to do it? Right?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:07:34] Well, it might be some of that, but I think a lot of it is more that I think there's different clitoral placement in women. So missionary position sex isn't necessarily going to, say, stimulate her. Some of it is obviously, you know, learned. Like, you know, once we kind of get into a groove that's a groove we're comfortable in, then we often don't know how to explore other arenas. But I just. A lot of women think that that's a failure to not be able to experience. Or even men think it's a failure on their part. You know, well, yeah, I must be doing something wrong. And so a big piece of sexual therapy is just redefining what we consider sexual success and that it doesn't have to be a certain way to be successful. There's lots of different ways to have sexual success. And exploring that with each couple and seeing what works for them, what works for one couple doesn't work for another couple, you know, so it is very much an individualized approach. And of course, when we're not performing the way we think we should be performing, what does that do? That increases our anxiety and anxiety and sex are not good friends. So, you know, allowing just for relaxation. A lot of times we start off with sensate focus exercises, which are really just kind of massage exercises. And don't Involve sexuality just to allow the couple to have different types of encounters than what they've they think they should be doing or what they have been doing. Understanding and allowing for personal pleasure is a big deal. And again, we're not very comfortable with that. We're supposed to be sacrificing, we're not supposed to be focusing on personal pleasure. So if you've got that kind of mindset that's very difficult to shift into that when you're enjoying each other sexually.

John Dehlin [00:09:33] Right. And just so two questions come to mind. One is when you hear sex therapist or sex therapy, what can often come to mind is like, you know, the therapist actually, you know, demonstrating or helping in the actual observing or actually helping in the participation or coaching. That's my sense is that's not part of what is traditionally offered, right?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:10:08] No, that is not what's traditionally offered at all. There is, I think, a group called or that call themselves sexual surrogates, which kind of offer those types of services which are more, I guess, hands on, if that's an appropriate. But that's not a professional group and they're not a regulated group. That's not something that you get, you know, that there's licensure for that. There's programs where you learn how to do that. So, you know, that does exist, but that's not by any means what the sexual therapy field is about, which is really just therapy around sexual issues, just like you would go for therapy for many other issues.

John Dehlin [00:10:58] Right. And last question about this. So have you seen a couple, let's again say 10 or 15 years into their marriage or more, and sex isn't that frequent or it's not that exciting or, you know, it's routine? Have you been able to work with a couple to where sex has actually improved and it's become something that has become fun or exciting and really positive in the life of the couple when they had gone years before without it being that way? Is that possible?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:11:41] Absolutely possible, yes. One of the great things about neuroscience these days is that we're finding out that your brain can create new pathways. So there's, you know, it takes work, it takes patience, it takes time, but it happens. And so even though we're kind of in these ruts, you know, with time, patience and energy, those, those can really be changed. And I see that all the time. And I'm so proud of my couples that are willing to do that kind of work and, you know, just completely change their vulnerability status and really challenge themselves personally and, you know, share themselves in Ways that they never have before and be open to new ideas. I mean, it's really very, just very rewarding work to see people's lives change so dramatically.

John Dehlin [00:12:34] So you rec. You. So if there's a man or woman out there who wants to have better sex, go see a good marriage and family therapist or a good sex therapist or good psychologist. Is that what you're saying?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:12:45] Absolutely, yes.

John Dehlin [00:12:48] All right, you guys heard it. It's worth the money and time, right?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:12:53] Yes, absolutely. So, I mean, there's, you know, obviously there's couples that are in such a toxic state that I'm not probably focusing on their sexuality right off the bat. But, but in general, couples can and fairly easily. Because, you know, one thing that I do is I have my short term strategies and I have my long term strategies and I'm very clear about that. You know, here's what we can do short term. So to help just assage the anxiety or assage the sexual drive issues that you guys are having, here's some short term things that we can do right now and then that will open up some space for us to work on more long term goals and strategies together. So, I mean, a good example of that is incorporating masturbation into your marriage. If you've got huge libido differences and he's again, just stereotypically talking about the male with the higher libido drive, he feels like he can't even approach her because he's going to get rejected and she has no interest because even the touch of him feels like that's all he wants is sex because they haven't had it in four weeks or something. We include masturbation in a way that both are aware of and comfortable with and all of a sudden it just lowers that pressure and then we look for other ways that they can be sexual and then, you know, so I'm not saying masturbation is a long term solution for all couples because that's not usually what people want in a, you know, relational intimacy. But it's a short term strategy to help us get over some bumps in the road. And that can be very liberating for both to just feel that pressure come off of both of them because both of them are sad and both of them are upset that they can't meet the other person's needs. Usually that's what I find. So there's short term relief and then there's long term, really success that people can reach if they stick with, you know, doing some good work together.

John Dehlin [00:14:57] All right, we heard it so again, if you want, if you want to improve your sex life, give Natasha or a good marriage and family therapist or psychologist a call. All right, Natasha. Well, this has been great. Let's go and move on to the next issue, which you described in your list of top 10 or 11 issues that Mormons face in, you know, therapy. Parenting youth in the church, or adolescent issues. What are some of the common difficulties you're running into for parenting youth in the church?

Parenting Adolescents in the Church

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:15:35] Well, some of the issues with adolescence are pretty normal to what other parents in this country are dealing with as far as adolescence. There's kind of general themes like substance abuse, you know, experimentation. There's trends such as cutting oneself, there's of course, peer relationships and starting to date and sexual types of concerns with teenagers that parents can have. So a lot of that is pretty just normative, regardless of what religion you're in or what kind of culture you're in. But there are things also that are kind of specific to Mormonism that add another dimension to some of the expectations that we have for our youth and expectations that I think parents feel not only that they want their youth to comply by, but if their youth doesn't comply by those expectations, then there might be some feeling that they, as a parent have failed. So there's some projection there as far as their own self esteem issues or things, you know, how are they going to be perceived by other ward members? And so some of these things can be, you know, whether or not a teen wants to attend seminary, whether or not a teen wants to attend a mission, whether or not a teen wants to even go to church on a Sunday, and some of these power struggles. So, you know, the reasons why parents often bring their teenagers to my office can be quite varied, you know, in things such as severity and even again, things that are more unique to Mormonism. So it's difficult to manage a time frame in life where developmentally, you know, teenagers are supposed to be kind of more risk taking and flapping their wings and kind of doing things out of their own volition. I mean, it's kind of the normative developmental phase they're in. And yet, you know, hitting the natural limits and boundaries that parents have for them. That's a very natural kind of dilemma that most parents of teenagers are in. And so, yeah, I guess that's kind of what teens are about.

John Dehlin [00:18:06] And so there's a great book, there's a great book that I've been reading about parenting called the Conscious Parent. And in there it tries to apply a lot of the Concepts about mindfulness and contact with the present moment and acceptance that Eckhart Tolle or Buddhism would, would offer. I highly recommend that book to parents. But you know, how does a parent know whether they're part of the problem? How does a parent. What are some common parent behaviors that might exacerbate, you know, adolescent issues? And you know, it's probably also instructive to talk about why developmentally some of this stuff that we might see as problematic is actually quite healthy. Talk about that if you can.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:18:59] Okay, so I think probably classic problems that parents run into are again, projecting their own issues onto their kids. So again, worried about how people are going to perceive them. Or maybe they've had experiences from their own adolescents that they're either super anxious about or don't want their kids to kind of follow in patterns that either they themselves participated in or maybe they had a family or loved one that participated in. So there's a lot of fear and anxiety that can go along with choices that our kids are making. And so then our anxiety rises and we project that onto our kids and then the power struggle becomes larger than it need be. And of course the other extreme would be to have no boundaries or limits. And that's not really what's, know, necessary for teenagers either. So, you know, most parents need to find a balance between kind of two extremes. And that's difficult to do. And it's difficult also because it's not, it's not like a one size fits all answer. So if you have four different children, for example, in your home, you may have to have four different parenting strategies. And that's extremely challenging because what works with one teenager doesn't necessarily work with another one. So it is highly individualized. I think that one of the issues that I find a lot working with Mormon parents is that we usually tend to have very high expectations for our kids and have high expectations for compliance. And one thing that I try to remind my, my LDS parents about is that, you know, we do believe very much in this kind of doctrine of agency. And that agency is not something that our teenagers, you know, don't have. I mean, they definitely have that. And part of being a parent, I think, and the difficulties of parenting is to allow for that agency to be manifest in a person's life. And that can be extremely challenging if those children are rejecting your values or your religion or your rules or. And especially if they're perceived as self harming, you know, in some way. So it's natural for parents to have anxiety. I don't want to make anybody feel guilty about that. But learning how to manage our parental anxiety is definitely part of my work of working with teenagers and their parents.

John Dehlin [00:21:44] Yeah, just anxiety, parental anxiety management, patience, non projection acceptance would go such a long way. I think I've noticed how when I'm irritable, when I'm obsessed with work, when I'm not emotionally present with my kids and not connecting with them, how much of a huge impact that can make on their lives. And it may seem obvious, but for me, I think there's probably a time where I thought if I'm doing all the fatherly things, we're having dinners, I'm taking them to their events and I'm supporting them and teaching them to go to church and to be good and to get good grades, that I've done my duty. But there's something I found to an emotional attachment, a sincere, you know, compelling emotional attachment that really has a lot of power. Has that been your experience?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:22:51] Yeah, I would totally agree with that. And I think even what you're getting at possibly is mutual respect. And oftentimes, you know, there can be some natural sassing or you know, talking back during teenagerhood that elicits a response from us as parents. It's not respectful in return. And so, you know, we don't know anything because we're too old and well, they don't know anything because they're too young. And so there's a lack of really active listening and really valuing our teens opinions at times. Not, you know, again, not always. But at times it can be hard when what we perceive our teenagers thinking or doing is not going down the right path. It's hard to listen or validate or see things from their perspective and to actually value their opinion and thoughts as they're developing into, you know, adulthood. So it's a very interesting developmental journey. It's not always negative. I think a lot of times people tend to, you know, woe is me kind of around the teenage times. But there's plenty of really wonderful adolescent parental relationships out there. And just because your child is turning into a teenager, you're noticing differences, doesn't mean that you guys are due doomed. But at the same time, there are a lot of adolescents and parents who really struggle during that time as well. And oftentimes flexibility goes a long way as far as making that a smoother transition into adulthood.

John Dehlin [00:24:28] One final thing I'll just mention that I found to be really important is being there for them when, when they are ready or wanting to talk. So I found that if I want to sit down and say, how was your day? What's going on? How are you doing? I sometimes am often met with resistance because it's sort of on my timetable and not theirs. And instead what I've found to be more successful is just being available. Even if they come to me while I'm in my office working or whatever, being willing to drop what I'm doing when they are ready to have those important conversations can go a really long way because sometimes they're in the mood to talk and sometimes they're not. And it can't always be by your timetable.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:25:16] I totally agree with that. I think that's great advice. You had mentioned something about teenagers and just kind of understanding their developmental phase. I'm trying to remember now. There was a great article on this. I believe it was either Scientific America or might have been Time magazine, but it came out, it was called the Teenage Brain. And boy, they did an excellent job of explaining why teenagers tend to take higher risks and, you know, kind of just some of the processes that are going through just as far as their brain development. And it's also interesting to understand that really the brain isn't fully developed until about age 25 or 26. So, you know, even though we've got these kind of mini adults running around in our homes, we have to remember that we are not at the same level as they are as far as brain development.

John Dehlin [00:26:08] Yeah, totally.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:26:09] So that's good to remember.

John Dehlin [00:26:13] Any other Mormon specific types of things that are really common? I'm thinking of like dating girls, wanting to date early. I'm thinking about kids experimenting sexually during those teenage years. Talking to your kids about masturbation or sexuality. Any things that you find coming up often or that you have particular perspective about.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:26:44] Well, I just think that that in general is a huge theme. Whatever it is, that kind of goes against the standards of the church. Again, the teenage brain is going to be more risk taking. And that's actually part of their normative process. And it's actually healthy for them to kind of push the limits because they really need to learn how to become independent at this point. I mean, that's really what their testing is about. And so oftentimes if you have a teen who just complies all the time, even though that makes life very easy for a parent, there's concerns in that regard too. And parents shouldn't think that the only way to be successful as a teenager is to comply. And of course that we don't really make a lot of room for that within Mormon culture or even within Mormon practice. So that's a really difficult struggle. And it's concerning to me as well, because I think that most of us are going to look back on either adolescence or young single adulthood, and it's probably going to be the times when we're most likely to have made experimental decisions, whether it is with sexuality or substances or faith ideas or things of that nature. And if there's no room to safely be able to do that at some level, then it can really cause schisms in the psychology of people, or it can cause complete rejection of certain ideas. And I think oftentimes that's why, unfortunately, we lose a lot of our youth.

John Dehlin [00:28:29] Yeah. So a parent, let's say there's a parent for whom the most important thing is that their kid remains active and faithful in the church. What would you say if there's some overriding dispositions or approaches? Would you say not being too rigid or orthodox or controlling about the church is actually a pretty crucial approach to having a high likelihood that your kid will stick around?

Helping Kids Sustain Faith Authentically

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:29:02] Yes, I think that that's probably true to some level. I think, at least sustainably stick around. I think some kids can be feared into it or bullied into it, and that may last a lifetime, too, but that's just not a very authentic way to live a religious life. So I think that, you know, when we look at family systems, there's kind of two extremes, and one is rigid and one is kind of like completely just kind of loosey, goosey. And really the balance is somewhere in between there, where you have, you know, clear boundaries, clear rules. But you also have, along with that, the flexibility to be able to deal with situations a little bit differently when things arise that are unexpected or maybe there's an exception because of a special event. You know, for example, you've got a gifted child who, you know, skipped a grade, and so all her friends are going to the promotion at 16, but she's 15, but she's still a junior. I mean, there's exceptions that are reasonable to make if you're going to put a child in a situation socially where they are going to want to be kind of doing some of the things that the other kids are doing. And if you really have no flexibility, then oftentimes kids at that point will either comply out of fear or rebel and create a power struggle with you. And, you know, so you want to kind of try to avoid those things and be reasonable and be flexible and allow for these things that the church puts Forth to be guidelines, especially things that are not really commandments, that are more guidelines, and use personal and family revelation as parents to be able to make those decisions, you know, for your own family. And that might look a little bit different than the family next door.

John Dehlin [00:30:59] Right. Okay. I have to ask you one last question. Sure. And this has nothing to do with my household. What, what do you do, what do you, what do you recommend about texting, you know, media use, Internet, Internet accessibility, that kind of stuff. Because. Because nowadays kids can just be on Twitter, Facebook, you know, texting, freaking all day long. Right. And again, that wouldn't be my children, but it could be other people's children. And what do you do about that?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:31:29] My children either it's not even me.

John Dehlin [00:31:33] No. Or me.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:31:37] Oh, funny. Well, I think that trying to fight a battle against technology is a losing battle. And so I think oftentimes, because we do in the adult realm talk about technology in a very fearful way, you know, that kids are getting addicted or that all they're going to want to do is game or text or then oftentimes we have the extreme reaction of wanting to just go completely free of these things or we're not going to allow our children to have any access. Those extreme positions usually don't work out very well. Because in this day and age, whether we like it or not, whether we agree or not, our children actually need to learn how to be technologically savvy and keep up with the systems that are in place. Because as we well know, every two or three, it completely just transforms once again into totally new information that they need to be kind of savvy about. And that's true for work environments and all kinds of environments. So there needs to be, again, healthy boundaries set up with technology. And that means that we have a relationship with technology and how are we going to have that relationship within our family home. So I know a lot of parents who have like a cell phone basket and at 10 o' clock at night or 9:30 or whenever bedtime kind of is, you know, all the kids need to put their cell phones in the basket. I know there's parental controls and there's, you know, kind of things that you can say, you know, you've got an hour of kind of leisure Internet use per day or, you know, whatever that is that you want to create for your home and just kind of have those rules. And of course those are nice things to be able to use as leverage to for disciplinary purposes. You know, you lose certain privileges. Because another thing that's I don't think very wise is to take away all privileges at once. Then you really put the kid in a position where there's no more incentive to keep that keep up good behavior because if everything's gone, then might as well just sneak out of the house or sneak into your friend's technology access or, you know, all those kinds of things. So. And kids are usually much smarter than us technologically as well. In fact, that's proven brain wise. Most of us will never catch up to those who are, you know, 10 or 15 years younger than us because we didn't grow up with the same type of relationship with technology as far as our how our neuroscience developed. So we, we're not going to be able to outsmart our kids. So have reasonable boundaries, have reasonable discipline. You know, like groundings really shouldn't probably be more than a weekend or a week, depending on how bad the infraction was. And that makes it reasonable. If you ground somebody for an entire semester, then I can guarantee you they're sneaking around and doing things in other places.

John Dehlin [00:34:41] Right. Okay, well, good. All right, well, that gives us a good overview. And again, in the Mormon Mental Health podcast, I know you'll be digging into all these issues with a lot more depth. Let's turn to the last two on my list that you provided. One being a topic near and dear to my heart, and that's faith crisis. What's been your experience with that one?

Faith Transitions and Same-Sex Attraction

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:35:08] Yeah, that's been on the increase for me. Of course, that's difficult for me to gauge. Why is that? Because obviously I'm known to the Mormon Stories audience or is that because it's happening more, you know, widespread in the church? But I've had both clients come to me, the Mormon Stories audience, and also clients that aren't really very aware of Mormon Stories kind of facing this type of issue. So it is extremely life altering for usually both spouses or even if it's just an individual who's coming to me with that and can be very scary, can be very liberating. It can be very awful and depressing. It can be a huge range of things for people. And it can really run the gamut of everything from still being an active member of the church and maybe having a more nuanced view on specifically Mormon history or Mormon culture versus really just leaving the church altogether and even, you know, going as far as feeling like now, you know, they really are comfortable with the label of atheism. So it's a huge gamut. It really affects all different kinds of Family systems. And it's hard to talk about, you know, just kind of a five minute segment as far as what the range of that gamut can include. But I think it's something that we really need to be very aware of. I think this is happening in many, many wards and family communities. And I think the biggest danger is that we not ostracize our ward or family members due to differences of belief or faith. I think that really goes against what we really stand for as a church, and I think it really goes against Christianity in general. And I think we really just need to be very careful about that.

John Dehlin [00:37:16] Right. And how do you, you know, how do you guide someone who is, who's trying to decide what to do? You know, they're torn. They. Let's say it's either historical issues that have made them feel like the church isn't what it claimed to be, or maybe they just feel deceived by the church, or maybe they've had cultural issues, whether it's feminism or just the way the bureaucracies in the church or whatever it might be, but some type of cultural experience that doesn't resonate with them. Maybe they're Democrats and don't feel, feel like their political positions are welcome, but they've kind of reached the conclusion that the church isn't what they thought it was. But they're staring at that possibility that if they were to come out about that and be open and decide to leave, that they potentially could have their spouse leave them, their children, kind of disown them. Parents doing the same potential work implications, like it's, it becomes a pretty tight squeeze between what some people feel like is their integrity and the potential consequences of being open and honest. And how do you, how do you guide someone through that?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:38:42] Right. So yeah, that's a lot.

John Dehlin [00:38:43] That's a lot. Right. That's more than you can do in three more minutes.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:38:50] Well, you know, a big piece of it, of course, is whether the person coming to me with this issue is coming to me in a marital system or whether they're coming to me as an individual. That's very different. It's also very different if the marital couple is kind of going through it at the same time and united and they're facing kind of, you know, external family pressure or friend pressure versus having that be something that's now dividing the couple. And so, yeah, so there's a lot of different scenarios and a lot of different kind of outcomes. Probably my general advice to anyone in the situation is that there doesn't need to be any rash decisions made, specifically if you're in a situation where your partner is not on board with you and where there are children involved. So I just recommend not there be any major changes that happen, first of all, unilaterally, where one partner just decides, you know, this is the way it's going to be, or that they happen in a quick fashion. So those are probably my biggest two things. I just try to slow things down, and let's take time to process and let's take time to figure out what our commonalities are. It's very easy to get so focused on the differences when in reality, there's still many, many commonalities for people when it comes to their values and common goals, especially when they want to raise their children and things they want to teach them. So I think that that's usually generally helpful just to slow things down, take things into perspective. As far as the integrity question, I probably used to be more on the. On the line of just be open and honest and authentic with whomever. But that does at times come with consequences that are unfortunate and not necessary. And so I think my position now has moved more towards the only person that you really owe integrity to, as far as proactive integrity, is your spouse. You don't really owe that to anybody else. And, you know, how you want to manage that over time is something that can be obviously explored in therapy or in a safe environment where you can kind of, you know, little by little decide how you want to maybe be more open about things like that in a community setting or in a friendship setting or in a ward setting.

John Dehlin [00:41:48] Right. And you and I have talked for a while about collaborating on books and workshops, retreats around both navigating a faith crisis and navigating a marriage when one or both loses their faith. And I want to reaffirm my commitment to working on that when my dissertation is fully defended. So that's a teaser for our audience to look on the horizon for some important collaborations ahead. What do you say? You still good with that?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:42:24] Absolutely. But I think we're going to have something out in 2013, because I'm going to.

John Dehlin [00:42:29] All right, all right. I'll let you hold my feet to the fire.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:42:33] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:42:34] All right, well, the last one I think we can do in three minutes, and that's same sex attraction. So go.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:42:39] Oh, okay. Just go.

John Dehlin [00:42:41] I'm just kidding. No. So, yeah, so, I mean, there's been a lot out now. The church has put out its website, mormonsandgays.org but the church has a difficult history and current status with people who experience same sex attraction, gays and lesbians, bisexual individuals, etc. Do you see this and how do you approach it?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:43:06] Yeah, so, you know, this, the reason why I put this on my list is not necessarily because I see it most often. I mean, the LGBT community probably takes up somewhere between 5 to 8% of any community. So, you know, it's not going to be a majority of my cases, but it has been in my practice pretty much ever since I started as far as, you know, cases that come up. So I think my first interaction with this was really due to the fact that, you know, when we were growing up, John, we still got the advice or people in that situation of our age or older got the advice that, you know, they should just work through this issue by getting married and kind of following the Mormon lifestyle. And this would just kind of either go away or take care of itself or manage itself because, you know, you're busy living the Mormon lifestyle. And so the first few cases really that I dealt with were people really in their 40s or early 50s coming to the conclusion that this, you know, after a 20 year bout of marriage and really trying to, you know, wish this away or pray this away or, you know, live it away by just following all of the commandments. It wasn't going away. And that was, you know, so these are people who have children and who have long standing marriages and are coming to a place where they really just cannot live this, what they feel is a double life anymore. And sometimes that double life is physical, like they're literally leading a double life. And sometimes it's just emotional. So even though they're not having sexual encounters with other people, they still very much feel like they're not being authentic to themselves. And of course, their spouses suffer tremendously as well. Most of them don't know that this is going on for their spouse because again, the advice I think that was given for a long time through priesthood channels, leadership channels, was not to tell your spouse, you know, to just kind of keep this to yourself and move on and kind of in a sense pretend it's not there. So we know that that hasn't worked. And to give the church credit, I mean, it has, maybe I won't use the word dramatically, but it has significantly shifted its position. Since I think I was a young woman, I remember being at BYU and still having heated discussions within circles where professors were involved and all of that, where it really wasn't, it was still seen as a choice to be a homosexual. And so that that whole, I think, dialogue was happening then as far as is it a choice or not? And we have seen significant progress in that area. In fact, the current, you know, stance of the church is that they recognize that this is more than likely. I think they say more than likely, not a choice, and, you know, calls on us for understanding for those who are dealing with these kinds of issues. Obviously, where the church has not budged or, you know, moved its position is with the behaviors of homosexuality. In other words, that there's no room for homosexual activity even within couples who would be committed to one another solely. So that causes obviously, a problem for those in the LGBT community because they are really, in a sense, forced to choose between their faith and a life where they could have legitimate companionship with someone and sexual relationships with a person in their life who is significant to them, which is, I think, what most of us want still in this life, in this day and age. Most of us want a relationship, and a committed one at that. So, yeah, so that's kind of where we're currently at. And so when people come to me with this issue at hand, whether it's parents, whether it's the individual themselves, whether they're young or older, it really creates some huge dilemmas as to how to manage a faith that usually they dearly love and believe in, and yet in many ways, they feel is extremely harmful to them. And that's very devastating to have to kind of explore in therapy. And yet that's the work we do.

John Dehlin [00:48:15] Right. And it's always a tough call to have to choose, for example, between your. I don't want to say your sexual identity. I want to say your love identity and any religious faith. In my perfect world, you wouldn't have to choose. But sometimes people do have to choose or have to learn how to reconcile. And there's no easy answer. But I guess we can probably agree that it's better now in the church than it's ever been, and it's likely to keep getting better. That's probably the good news, right?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:48:50] Yes. And I do want to. Even though I hope for more, I do want to give the tuition credit for how far it's come in the last 25 years, because it's not going to be something that I think happens overnight. It happens in steps as far as understanding and tolerance and just basic kind of movement happens usually slowly. Change occurs, but it occurs slowly. And so it's sad for me for those who are caught in that time warp, per se, you know, because maybe 50 years from now, our LGBT community will not have to face the choices that our current LGBT community has to face. I don't know, but it's always sad to me to think of the people that are kind of caught in the. In the midst of a change.

John Dehlin [00:49:50] Yep. And there's still work the church, you know, will probably need to do with gays and lesbians, with feminists, same with intellectuals. And that's okay. You know, we're all humans, and we're all learning and growing, and. And I'm optimistic about the future for all these groups over time, and I think it's nice that in the meantime, there are people like you out there who's willing to help pick up the pieces and bridge the gaps when things get awful for people while they're waiting for bigger changes in society. So kudos to you.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:50:30] Well, thank you.

Closing Reflections and Therapist Resources

John Dehlin [00:50:33] Okay, well, I guess we've reached the end of this epic top 10 or 11 mental health issues that Mormons tend to face. I guess. Is there anything you want to say about the podcast?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:50:51] Yeah, I definitely want to talk a little bit about that. I mean, first of all, I want to say that we've. We've covered a huge range of topics, and most of this has been just from what comes to the top of my mind. So I want to be very clear that I probably have not been all inclusive, and I probably have not covered everything to the level it should be covered. And that's really what the whole purpose of this podcast is going to be, is to, like you said earlier, take each one of these topics and many other topics to a much deeper level and really bring both professionals and people who have lived through some of these situations forth for interviews to really better understand these kinds of issues, so that hopefully this will become a rich resource for those who are struggling and whatever ways they may be struggling in their life, to have a place where it's safe, where it's research centered, where it's, you know, faith promoting, and where it can be a place where. And by faith promoting, I don't mean that you have to continue with the faith. I'm perfectly comfortable people needing to leave the faith, but I just want it to be a place that's safe to have these types of discussions in a way that is intelligent and useful, you know, useful for members of the LDS Church, regardless of where they're at on the spectrum of belief, whether, you know, it's orthodoxy or more progressive or whatever words we want to use. I know there's a lot of discussion on which words are better to use in that scenario? So in that, I'm kind of, I guess, asking for those who may or may not agree with me, especially if you're a professional, to get in touch with me, or if you feel like you've got a particular story that you'd like to share or if you'd like to see a certain topic be covered to, please send me those types of requests. I can't promise that we'll be able to fit everybody on who wants to come on necessarily, but I do want to at least hear from people, and I'm always up for a challenge if you don't agree with me. I feel like I have lots to learn yet, and I appreciate being disagreed with as long as it's done politely. So just let's make this a really rich place for Mormons to get some mental health education.

John Dehlin [00:53:35] Okay. So the website, as I Understand it, is MormonMentalHealth.org Is that right? Oh, is that right?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:53:48] I believe so, yes.

John Dehlin [00:53:49] Mormon mental health. Sorry. Mormonmentalhealth.org how do people email? Should we set that up or. I know you have an email address, but maybe we should. We'll set up some type of email address like natashaormonmentalhealth.org, something like that. Are you looking for any particular support from people?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:54:09] Well, I'm definitely not feeling like I need to be the only host. So again, if there are professionals, I would ask for licensed professionals at this point to, you know, if they want to bring on a topic or want to interview somebody or have ideas and want to put together a podcast and pass it through me and see if it's something that we'd be interested in publishing. I'd be more than happy to accept that type of. Of assistance. So by no means does this have to be the Natasha Helfer Parker Show. I really want to include lots of other professionals so that we can create somewhat also of a formal referral system, but get to know some of the other mental health professionals who are serving our members that are doing fabulous work out there. And I know there's many, many, many of us out there. So, yeah, so this is an invitation to just kind of approach me with projects and let's see what we can improve and go forward with.

John Dehlin [00:55:10] And as I understand it, you're going to do both experts in the field that can talk about specific issues with the high level of expertise, but also stories of people who confronted various forms of mental illness or struggle to help dig deep on people's stories. Is that true?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:55:28] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:55:29] Okay. All right, good. And you got a promise one on sex, sexuality.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:55:34] That's another thing that I want to be clear about is I am a sex therapist, and so probably about, you know, half to a third of my podcasts are probably going to include sexuality. So there's. It's going to be a heavy leaning towards sex. And it's almost. Not that I want the podcast to be about sex, but I want there to almost be like, a separate, like, list, you know, like, okay, here's mental health and here's sex stuff, you know, So I just want to be able to build that up as well. So don't get bored with me if I have a lot of sex stuff on.

John Dehlin [00:56:08] Somehow sex always sells. I think people are always interested in how to enhance their lives that way. Okay, so what's your personal. Tell us one more time your personal web address so that people can also see how to contact you professionally.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:56:27] Well, I'm under the Pathios umbrella, and that's kind of a long thing. I mean, we can link to that, but basically, if you Google Mormon Therapist, you will find me. And my blog is called the Mormon Therapist, and it's under the Patheos umbrella. And like I said, we'll put a link up to that, probably from this podcast, not necessarily on Mormon mental health, but there will be a way to contact me through Mormon Mental health as well.

John Dehlin [00:56:53] Okay, well, I'll just say that I'm really excited to get this project off the ground. I'm really excited that you're leading it. I'm really excited for others who want to step up and support, and I look forward to many, many episodes on mental health to help increase mental health within Mormonism. So, Natasha Helfer Parker, I can't thank you enough for both today and your work in the past and in the future. So keep up the great work.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:57:21] Thank you, John. This has been a tremendous opportunity to work with you and to work with this community. It's just. It's fabulous. People are just so courageous and face so many intense things, and I'm just always privileged to be a part of that in some of those journeys. Anyway.

John Dehlin [00:57:39] All right, the website's MormonMentalHealth.org and we'll see you guys again soon. Thanks so much. Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Music today was provided by the Saber Rattlers. Check them out at saber-rattlers.com the Mormon Stories logo was generously donated by StudioCase.com thanks for listening.

John Dehlin [00:58:03] Come, come, ye saints. No toil nor labor feast, but with joy Wend your way though hard to you this journey may appear Grace shall be as your day Tis better far for us to strike Dry our useless cares from us to drive to the San Jo your hearts will swell oh, all is well all is well. Why should we mourn? I think our lot is hard Tis not so all is right why should we think to earn a great reward if we now shun the fight Gird up your lo Fresh courage take Our God will never us forsake soon we'll have tale to tell oh, all is well all is well oh, all is well all is well. Sam. And should we die before our journeys through happy death all is well we that are free from toil and sorrow too with the just we shall dwell. But if our lives are spared again to see the saints the rest obtain I will make this glorious swell oh, all is well all is well all is well well all is well all is well oh, is well. All is well all in the way Ram.

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