Join Margi and John for our next episode of Thrive Stories this coming Tuesday at noon (MST).
Rachel of PostMormon Parenting on Instagram will be joining us in the studio! Rachel was born and raised in a Mormon family on the east coast. She spent her youth preparing to be a “mother in Zion.” She had three children before her faith transition, and her parenting style was modeled after the examples she found in the scriptures and at church. During and after her faith transition, she realized that this style was doing more harm than good, and things needed to change. Hear her story and WHAT has changed in her parenting style on Thrive Stories!
Episode Transcript
Host: John Dehlin · Co-host: Margi Dehlin · Guest: Rachel
This transcript is machine-generated and lightly edited for readability. The audio is authoritative. Please excuse occasional errors in names and spelling.
Welcome and Introducing Today's Guest
Margi Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to Mormon Stories, Thrive Stories edition. I am your host, Margi Dehlin, and I am joined today by my co host, John Dylan. How you doing?
John Dehlin [00:00:09] Hi, everyone. Hi, Margi. So happy to ride shotgun on this episode with you.
Margi Dehlin [00:00:15] It's always fun.
John Dehlin [00:00:16] Yeah. What are we doing here? Why are we doing this?
Margi Dehlin [00:00:19] Why are we doing this?
John Dehlin [00:00:20] Yeah. What are we doing?
Margi Dehlin [00:00:21] What are we doing? You asked such good questions. What are we doing?
John Dehlin [00:00:26] We're doing an interview with Rachel.
Margi Dehlin [00:00:28] We're super excited. So I mentioned a couple weeks back that we're going to do a series of parenting episodes, and I think that's because it's one of the areas that I feel like can be a hard hit amidst Mormon transition. And there are many, many good ways, I think, to approach parenting. And so I think having many stories is a great idea. So many options, many stories. I did want to just address really quickly before we do the Thrive story, a forehead story, because my forehead is bandaged clearly, so I know people will likely ask about it, those that are watching. So once upon a time, Margi noticed something on her forehead and found out it was a basal cell carcinoma. So went to the dermatologist, had some surgery, and it's. It's healing up and we're doing well and fine, and I have all the SPFs and. And it's just a great reminder for. For everyone, but hopefully, hopefully that, like, answers all the questions of the. The forehead at the current situation. Yeah. There.
John Dehlin [00:01:38] Wear your hats in the sun is basically the. The moral of the story.
Margi Dehlin [00:01:43] That's right. It's like hats and spf. So. But let's dive in today. I'm really excited to have Rachel here. Welcome, Rachel. Hi.
Rachel [00:01:52] Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. I'm so very, very happy to be here. And I love that you guys are doing kind of like a set on parenting. And as you know, I'm very passionate about this. I've had my own long journey with this and just really, really happy to be here and discussing that with you today. I know there's so many people who can really relate.
Margi Dehlin [00:02:16] Yeah, it is true. And this is kind of one of our areas that we feel kind of passionate about. Yes.
John Dehlin [00:02:22] Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Rachel [00:02:24] For ourselves.
John Dehlin [00:02:25] Yeah, for sure. In fact, and on Rachel was mentioning when we did the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis podcast, we. We did maybe one or two episodes on parenting, and we'll make sure to include a link to the show notes on that.
Margi Dehlin [00:02:40] Yeah, yeah. It was kind of one of my initial deep dives to get Grounded again amidst that transition was just noticing how much it. Like, how much anxiety and fear naturally emerged during that time. So we're excited to kind of dive into this with you before we begin. Maybe we'll have you give a brief intro if you want, just about what interests you, what lights you up, anything you want to share really quickly, you can even share where people can find you. I personally know of you through the post Mormon Parenting on Instagram, but now I hear about all your other. So just a brief introduction so people can get a sense.
Rachel's Background and YouTube Channel
Rachel [00:03:20] Yeah, yeah, sure. So my name is Rachel, and I started a YouTube channel actually, for postmormon parenting back in 2020, I think it was. Yeah, right at. Right at the beginning of the pandemic. And so I'm on YouTube and I'm also on TikTok and Instagram a little bit on Facebook, and that's pretty much it. I love having this as a creative outlet for me and also to be able to share things that I find are so helpful and have been really transformative for me because I know so many other people can learn from that as well. And so I don't necessarily have a lot of credentials as, like, I'm a parenting expert, and people should listen to what I have to say. My goal is more to point people toward resources that I found that I think can be really, really helpful and just kind of share, you know, so nobody has to reinvent the wheel. You know, we can all learn from each other and stand on the backs of giants, so to speak.
Margi Dehlin [00:04:23] Yeah. That's beautiful. Beautiful. Well, shall we begin? You ready, John?
John Dehlin [00:04:30] Yeah. And I'll just say that even though these thrive stories, you know, have a theme with them, I also just want to make sure people understand that we are just going to, you know, always try and do a classic Mormon story. So hopefully we all want to learn a little bit about parenting, but also, Rachel, I'm just excited to hear your story.
Rachel [00:04:51] Thank you. Thank you.
John Dehlin [00:04:53] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:04:54] Yeah. So why don't we begin, if you don't mind, like, as a child? Like, if. What do you remember about yourself as a child? What you loved, how you spent your time, and how it felt to be you.
Growing Up in a Large Mormon Family
Rachel [00:05:06] Yeah. So I grew up on the east coast to a very big Mormon family, and I was toward the end of the family. So by the time I came along, my parents were pretty chill and pretty hands off and pretty busy with the other siblings as well. So I had a lot of free time, a lot of unstructured playtime, and I feel like that Was really, really good for my development. I think that's really great for kids to have some unstructured play time. And they. My parents weren't super strict with me. I don't think they could be. I don't think they knew a lot of what I got up to. So there were definitely pros and cons about growing up that way. On the one hand, like I said, I grew up to be very independent and learned I can do anything and I have done a lot for myself and I can keep doing that. And that gave me this really incredible sense of self confidence and feeling like I'm competent and I can do great things. And that has stayed with me my whole life. And I'll forever be grateful for that. And at the same time, you know, there was a degree of neglect there as well, because there just weren't enough grownups to go around for all of the people that needed their attention all at the same time. Overall, though, I mean, my childhood was very fun and grew up in a really nice space with lots of land, and that was just fantastic.
Margi Dehlin [00:06:39] So would we probably. I'm kind of trying to envision you. Would we find you outside a lot? Was there a lot of imaginary play going on? Did you play a lot with others, like neighbors? Were you mostly by yourself?
Rachel [00:06:52] A pretty big mix?
Margi Dehlin [00:06:53] Yeah.
Rachel [00:06:54] As I got older and a little more brave and could go and wander the neighborhood more. Yeah, we found me and my siblings found lots of friends in the neighborhood we could play with. But I did a lot of solo play as well and was happy to be on my own. I'm very extroverted by nature, but I also, you know, love to nurture that introvert part of myself too. So I could go outside and find some alone time where maybe inside the house it was loud and chaotic and too many people. So I would often be outdoors and enjoying the breeze and. Yeah, enjoying the greenery there.
Margi Dehlin [00:07:26] If you were going to talk about your family culture.
John Dehlin [00:07:28] Right.
Margi Dehlin [00:07:29] And kind of the family system, so the time when you were inside or more together as a family, how would
John Dehlin [00:07:36] you describe that and also how Mormonism informed that family life?
Rachel [00:07:41] Absolutely. Yeah. So my family was first and foremost, before anything else, Mormon. And we followed the rules of the church. My parents followed the rules and us kids followed the rules. So very orthodox belief and very orthodox practice at home. And if ever there was a disagreement or we're not sure what to do, we would look to the church. So it wasn't like my parents were the moral authority or my parents had the final say about anything. It was, what does the prophet say and what do the apostles say? And, and what should we be doing? And so with that in mind, I, I feel like I was raised a lot by my church leaders because they were the mouthpieces, so to speak. And they were the ones conveying all of this information to us, me and my siblings. And so thankfully, I had some really incredible leaders. A lot of my young women leaders actually were quite feminist. You know, the word feminism wasn't a bad word in my house. And, and maybe that's part of being on the east coast. And a lot of them had their own careers. And that was really, really impressed me and helped me feel like, oh, everything is equal. Everything is. Everything is rainbow and sunshine and men and women are so equal. And I just love this church. And I really found a safe space at church. And when things were chaotic at home or I wasn't getting enough attention at home, I found that at church. And so church was really almost even more of a home to me than my own home was. I learned to really identify myself as Mormon first, above anything else. Like, that was who I was, that was where I was going. This would be my life, and I was happy to do it. I really, I feel like I had the kind of personality that fit the mold really well, and the ward that I grew up in was supportive of that. And I feel like I really enjoyed, I really, really enjoyed everything the church had to offer. Every activity that they had, I was there. If there was some kind of school thing that was on a Wednesday night, I was like, sorry, I can't be there. I have mutual. I did early morning seminary faithfully, almost got perfect attendance. And I really, that was my number one priority, was being the best member of the church that I could be.
Margi Dehlin [00:10:22] Yeah, it sounds like, it sounds like in that way, the church kind of gave you a little world.
Rachel [00:10:29] Absolutely.
Margi Dehlin [00:10:30] Yeah.
Rachel [00:10:30] And I loved it and I, I thrived in it.
Margi Dehlin [00:10:34] If you were to kind of describe the style parenting you grew up in, what, what would you say about that? And do you have, you know, talking about things like control, high control, low control, high expectation, low expectation. How would you talk about your experience, particularly, let's say, in childhood?
Rachel [00:10:54] Yeah. So again, it's going to be difficult to pin down because of how hands off my parents had to be, and
Margi Dehlin [00:11:04] that's based on just what time and resources they had because of 100%.
Rachel [00:11:09] Yes. And I don't think that was ever intentional. Well, maybe I don't think that was intentional on their part. But when they were around to discipline, it was pretty strict, it was pretty austere. It was, you know, you didn't do this thing and now you need a punishment. And it was a lot of like, you need to obey your authority figures. We are your authority figures. The church gives us, you know, they are authority figures. You need to obey us. You need to obey them or there will be consequences to pay. And so although I didn't face consequences very much, and although I liked following the rules and so that was really easy for me and I don't think my parents had to or felt like they even wanted to enforce a lot with me. That really was the, the culture at home. You know, we, we're expected to live this way and do these things or else we would be punished, we would have privileges taken away or, you know, whatever other punishments that they could think of.
Margi Dehlin [00:12:13] Yeah, yeah, okay, that makes sense. Do you have any questions, John, that are coming to mind?
John Dehlin [00:12:19] So I get the sense that, you know, well, if, if your ward slash family situation was anything like I've observed outside of kind of Utah, and maybe some of this overlays with how some Utah wards are. But they're often like families that are just really well known as important families, pillars in the kind of, in the ward slash, broader community. And I'm not asking to kind of dig in any details there other than what I've noticed is that with families like that, number one, there's a real high priority to promoting an image or an appearance. Like, it's really important that we as a family promise project, that we're all on board doing what's right and are happy and that the gospel is working for us. So that's one. A real emphasis on kind of appearance. And then sometimes that can lead to kind of a culture of like, well, we gotta look perfect. But then there, there are these problems behind the scenes and then kids are noticing that the, that the public face might be different than what's going on. And I'm not trying to dig or pry and you don't have to answer any of these question. I just know that sometimes that becomes a thing and it's almost. It's not about the integrity of the family, it's more about the pressure of keeping up the appearance. So is there anything that, that you are comfortable or even that matches your experience that you would want to talk about in that regard?
Being a Model Mormon Family in the Ward
Rachel [00:13:57] Yeah, I'm happy to talk about that and I understand what you mean. So my family was a really well known family. I think mostly because of the number of children that we had and that my parents had. And so. And a lot of us kids, I think, had the similar experience that I had where church provided this safe haven. And, you know, if these were the rules to be accepted and to thrive within this safe haven, then I am all for it. And a lot of my siblings really did conform very well, including myself. And so we. We really did have this reputation for, like, oh, that family. They're the family to look up to. And I got told a couple times, we really look up to your family. And. And that did have its own kind of pressure. I don't. I can't speak for my parents or my siblings, but for me, I didn't feel like I had to put on an appearance of anything that we weren't. That we had struggles just like any other family did. And I felt like authenticity was valued, at least in the spaces where I was in my Sunday school classes and in my young women's groups. So, again, can't speak for anyone else in my family, but I felt like we didn't have to pretend and be inauthentic and say, oh, yeah, sure, we're doing family home evening every Monday night, and we always have family scripture study every morning because. Cause we didn't. But I felt like it was okay to say we're struggling with those certain things. We understand that they're important and we value those things, and we struggle to implement the practice. And I didn't feel a lot of shame for not doing that. I felt like it was okay to be open about those things. So in that sense, I'm grateful for that. That was nice.
Margi Dehlin [00:15:56] Yeah. So I'm hearing kind of an integrated self, an integrated experience for you.
Rachel [00:16:01] Yes. I didn't feel like I had to pretend to be somebody I wasn't.
Margi Dehlin [00:16:05] Yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin [00:16:07] What about just pressure to be the model Mormons kind of thing?
Rachel [00:16:10] 100%.
Margi Dehlin [00:16:11] Yes.
Rachel [00:16:13] Pressure to continue doing all of that and never make a mistake, or at least not a noticeable one. I had felt the pressure to always be clean in all of my words that I would say I would never swear, never, ever swear, and I would always be kindly. And part of that was just who I was and embracing the values that the church had really instilled in me of kindness and compassion and equality and fairness. And part of that was also I knew that people were looking up to me. And so I needed to be this city on a hill, this light that you don't put under a bushel. I needed to be loud and proud and A little bit performative. And I think that might be answering kind of what you were asking, John, that for sure. A lot of my actions and words were performative to show other people, not necessarily how pious I was, but to inspire them to piousness as well and so that we can all be righteous together. And I remember having this feeling a lot in my youth of kind of looking over my shoulder and be like, are you watching? I'm doing it right. Is everybody watching? Are you falling in line a little bit like the Pied Piper? You know, I can be a leader. Are you following and a little bit judgmental like that?
Margi Dehlin [00:17:41] Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. And it makes this vicious cycle, particularly with, I think, the reinforcement you get.
John Dehlin [00:17:49] Right.
Margi Dehlin [00:17:49] And people starting to really value and notice that, and then it. Building more pressure, and then you get reinforced and then it builds more pressure and.
Rachel [00:17:57] Absolutely.
Margi Dehlin [00:17:58] Yeah. So interesting. Well, I hear kind of what you're saying with regard to your family system and growing up, and what I'm hearing is kind of a mixed. A mixed experience when you're home and you're kind of with your parents. The default is kind of the church. Right. We look to the leaders. We kind of follow that culture, and we look to kind of what they say. Is that right?
Rachel [00:18:24] Absolutely.
Margi Dehlin [00:18:24] And then sort of, at least in childhood, some space, you have a lot of room to roam to kind of get away from some of that. But I do think it's interesting to note when. And I think that's quite common to default to kind of church that for parenting to. To. Our parenting tends to fall in line with the type of style the church has, which is definitely authoritarian. More author. It's like obey. You know, you show up largely for the parent to make the parent comfortable to. And a lot of control. And sometimes moving into. I think it can move into authoritative, which is a little less, you know, where it's so commanding and so. But authoritative, even where it's kind of that conditional love model. A lot of expectation. High. High expectation. High. High control.
Rachel [00:19:17] Absolutely.
Margi Dehlin [00:19:18] High support, too.
John Dehlin [00:19:21] Yes.
Rachel [00:19:22] High support. We had lots of tools and resources at our disposal and extremely high expectations. And I really internalized that. Me and my siblings got very good at policing ourselves. Our thoughts, our behavior, our words, how we engaged with the world around us, and even the things that we believed. Oh, you. You can't believe that. You're not allowed to believe that. You have to believe this way. Yeah. And. And policing each other and even policing our parents.
Margi Dehlin [00:19:49] Yeah.
Rachel [00:19:49] And, you know, I. It's strange that they didn't like put their foot down and say, you can't police me, I'm your parent. But it was no, like we're all catching each other. We're all in this together and they're. The church is our authority, not necessarily the parents. But yeah, absolutely, that very authoritarian. These are the rules. You don't question them. And if you are questioning them, then we're going to treat you differently. And you, we're not going to give you answers, we're just going to give you shame. How dare you? Are you, are you saying you're doubting? Are you saying you aren't grateful for everything God has given you? And so there was definitely like obey without question. Obedience is the first law of heaven. And this is a life or death kind of thing. Because your eternal salvation rests on how well you can be obedient.
Margi Dehlin [00:20:46] That's right, yes. And kind of your inner life and emotions not super addressed. It's just sort of very like behavior focused.
Rachel [00:20:54] Right, exactly. Yeah. And so like you're saying I had a lot of that free time and space as a child and all of that really dwindled down and maybe a lot of that was self imposed. I don't think it was so much from my parents when I really hit young women's and now it's like, okay, things are getting real. Your eternal salvation is on the line. Here's your personal progress book. We really. You need to get this done and the sooner the better, things like that. And you need to make these decisions about dating and modesty so that you don't do anything in the future ever that could compromise your worthiness to enter the temple and get married there.
Margi Dehlin [00:21:35] Yes, talk about that if you want. Do you mind kind of sharing, moving into adolescence, a time, you know, developmentally where we individuate. I mean supposedly not many of us in Mormonism did, but like that's sort of the natural kind of path. And sometimes if you're going to get a rubbish in parenting, you get it with teenagers and that's sort of when splitting can happen with obedience and some of the control things can break down, I think naturally. Then what were you like as a teen if you were kind of gonna describe yourself and are there any sort of parenting insights from that time as to what you remember with your parents or if there were any rubs for you or moments that you remember that differentiation space or were you still kind of, you know, it's almost like a hustle, like you're hustling for the love. It's about basic Needs. You're just trying to get the love that and in the system and how it's spelled out right. But talk a little bit about that.
Life as a Rule-Following Mormon Teenager
Rachel [00:22:44] Sure, yeah, I'd be happy to. So I was such a good teenager. I never broke almost any rules. If it was. I was, like, driving above the speed limit a little bit and felt bad about it. I really embraced this idea of following the rules to a T. And so my parents, like, really didn't have to do much with me at all. One moment that sticks out in my mind was right when I was about to enter high school. It was a few days before the first day of school. And my mom said, you know, you might have some days where you're feeling like you need a break, like a. She didn't say mental health day, but that's what I would say now. Like a mental health day. You can skip school. That's okay. Like, you can do that. And I thought, wow, that's really nice. That's really cool that she believes in me so well. But it was just a mark of how good I had been and how I worked so hard to hustle to prove my worth, to say, I, I can do this and I can do it so well, and Heavenly Father is going to be so proud of me. And at this point, I really had let go of trying to please and make my earthly parents proud. At this point, it was, I want to make Heavenly Father proud of me. And so there was no, like, differentiation or individuation between me and Heavenly Father. Like, oh, what he wants, I want, what he says, I do. He says, jump, I say, how high. That was the kind of relationship that I had. And I policed myself so much that I really didn't get to enjoy life as much. And this part makes me sad. And sometimes I'll cry when I'm thinking about it, about how much I missed out during these adolescent years because I put so much pressure on myself. And again, this wasn't necessarily coming from my parents. This was just like, I, I'm going to do this on my own. I am independent, and I've had to be there for myself since early childhood, and I'm doing that now. And I'm going to be the police and I'm going to be the mom and dad for myself, and I'm going to make sure that I am following the rules and I'm going to punish myself if I don't. And so I, I, I missed out on some things. And even, like, when I was dating, I was so, so so worried that I might slip up, which I never came anywhere near slipping up, you know, in the way that we would consider what slipping up would mean. But I was so, so worried about it that I really sabotaged some really potentially just like fun relationships that could have been really good.
Margi Dehlin [00:25:33] Yeah. Yeah. So I hear you kind of leaning into some of the costs, right. Of kind of showing up in that way. It's interesting because as you're talking, what came to my mind was what happens when the system that you're in is so effective at teaching and informing and programming that you actually merge with the system. You, you know, you don't even need the external system to exist. It now lives in you. Your thoughts represent what the system would say about your behavior. You know what I mean? And as you were talking, I was kind of hearing that, like that on some level you adopted so you know, in such a deep level some of those things that they were coming up for, for you. So. So I'm hearing some loss come up, particularly around relationships and fun. Anything else that you. That comes up for you around loss, around this particular form, it's almost like of, of coping really. Right. Is there anything that comes. Else that comes to mind or is that kind of the main thing?
Rachel [00:26:45] I also wish that I hadn't been so judgmental about my friendships. So since I was in a very non densely Mormon populated area. That was a weird way of saying that. But since I was in a place where in my high school we had 1600 students and only like five of us were LDs and two or three of those were my siblings, all of my friends were not members of the church. And I wish I had not felt like I needed to proselyte to them. I wish I felt like I had not needed to worry about their eternal salvation. I wish I had been able to enjoy my time with them more and not be judgmental about the way that they lived their lives and the clothes that they choose, chose to wear and the words that they chose to use. And I think I could have been a better friend also. I was a, I was a pretty good friend, but it could have been better if I had not been so caught up in this need, this life or death feeling need to embrace things the way that I did.
Margi Dehlin [00:27:55] Yeah, that makes sense. Yep. Anything coming up for you over there?
John Dehlin [00:28:00] No. This sounds like many, many of us kind of a striving, obeying, conforming,
Margi Dehlin [00:28:12] you
John Dehlin [00:28:12] know, sort of Mormon upbringing. And I'm always torn at this part of everyone's Mormon story, including my own. You Know, if we learn about Richard Rohr and this idea of first and second half of life. Richard Rohr is kind of a progressive, semi believing Catholic leader who just says that it doesn't matter what, how we're raised. We need a, we need a structure to be raised in. And he says, and he calls that first half of life. And his argument is, is that you're going to get a structure, so get a good structure. And you're always going to eventually find the structure imperfect, but you need a structure. And he actually makes the argument that Mormons do first half of life better than anyone else he's ever seen. And he's seen everything. And so that we're, I think because many of us are in faith crisis or, you know, have lost our faith here in this community or are coming out of other religious traditions as well or curious about Mormonism, there's a tendency to want to kind of like focus on all the bad of like, oh, control and obedience and like hustling for worth. But if I'm trying to be balanced and fair, sometimes all those things keep you out of trouble. Sometimes they give you a sense of meaning or purpose or identity or spirituality or community or friends. And so it's mixed. And I'm curious if you think of it that way as well.
Rachel [00:29:42] Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Nothing is ever, from what I've learned now, like, nothing's ever just black and white. It wasn't good, it wasn't bad. It was so much of a complex mixture of here were some really helpful parts of being raised in that way, and here were some harmful parts of being that way. And here's where some things that were just neutral and there for sure is a whole mixed bag going along with that. Yeah, yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:30:09] And I'm just going to say that, like, I'm going to just address the privilege part of that. I do think for certain people growing up in the church who have less privilege and it, that mixed bag can be fully loaded in a harmful way. So anyway, just gonna say that. Okay, so moving kind of out of teen years, is there anything else you kind of want to, that you feel that you want to mention about your teen years with regard to it being important to the story that you're sharing?
John Dehlin [00:30:44] So the, the Mormon story or the parenting story? Yeah.
Rachel [00:30:48] Um, I mean, I think one thing that really reinforced this way that I was, was when I was 14, I met a boy who I thought was just like the bee's knees. He's the greatest, like God's gift to mankind. And he was Three years older than me and he liked me back. And so we both had a crush on each other, but I wasn't 16 yet, so we weren't going to date or do anything, so we just kind of had this long distance thing going on. And when, even when I did turn 16, he was out of state. So whenever we would correspond with each other, though, our correspondence would be almost like testimony, sharing things with each other. And because he was very much this same way that I was as well. And so we really like fed into each other this idea of like self policing and surrounding ourselves with all, all things church. And I even wrote to him when he went on his mission and we would do scripture trivia back and forth and I would write little questions and then he would answer, then he would write a question and then I would answer. And it was really fun. And it was another way that I felt like, wow, I really felt found someone just like me. And this is really, really great. And we've got something really great going on here and. And it made me even want to be that much better. And part of that is that like, relationship energy that you have when you meet somebody that inspires you and it makes you want to be better. And also part of that, I think, was us sharing more and more of the good things of the church, like the helpful ways with each other and us, because of that relationship that we had, committing to ourselves more and more and more. This is the way. This is the one true way. And this is how we want to live the rest of our lives. And this is how we're going to parent. And we even talked about getting married one day. And I mean, he came home from his mission, he's like, actually, I want to date around. So that was, you know, one of the biggest heartbreaks of my life. But I carried so much from that relationship with, with me going forward in the future. You know, getting past those adolescent years, going toward college now, still this incredibly closely held commitment to being the best that I can always. And really looking forward to getting married in the temple, raising my family and raising them in this same way with this exact same mindset.
Margi Dehlin [00:33:27] Right. So that kind of really leads us back to parenting in a way, right? Your expectations and kind of your experience within the church with around parenting. So what would you say, kind of moving into now? I don't know if you kind of want to continue the Mormon story, but I'm really curious about, you know, as you find yourself partnered and what expectations you had at that point around parenting based on Kind of church and what you learned and how it would work.
Formative Experiences That Shaped Parenting Values
Rachel [00:34:00] Yeah. Well, I'll bring up another thing that happened during these formative adolescent years that really informed how I was thinking about parenting, you know, at that time. And this was so girls camp, right? Young women. Every summer we get to go to girls camp. There's always a theme. And one year, our theme was army of One, meaning we are an army of one. And I think they stole that theme from the US army at the time, if I'm not mistaken. But it's this idea that we are an army. We are God's army. We're his chosen soldiers for these latter days to fight against dark forces in the world, and we are unified in it. And they even had a drill sergeant. I'm pretty sure he actually had experience being a drill sergeant.
Margi Dehlin [00:34:49] And.
Rachel [00:34:49] And he did different drills with us, and it was all fun and happy and kind of casual. But the message that they really wanted to hit home over the course of the week was we obey our drill sergeant. We don't ask questions. He says, drop and give me 20. That's what we do. We don't ask why. We don't protest. We don't say, I'm tired. We don't say, I need to go to the bathroom first. You just do what you're told. And this really reinforced this idea that obedience is the first law of heaven. And didn't I hear that so much, too, while I was writing back and forth with this missionary who is like, man, I'm really keeping all these rules really well, Rachel. And really, obedience is the first law in heaven. And we're really hitting on that a lot on my mission. So all of these experiences through life, including this experience at the girls camp and then writing back and forth with this missionary, all made me feel like, yeah, this is it. This is. I know how to be a good parent now because I understand we really, really need to teach our kids obedience to people who are in positions of moral authority over them. Another experience happened while I was in college. So I went to byu, studied psychology. It was fascinating and super fun, and I loved my whole time at byu because now I really was surrounded by the church. Finally, after all my growing up years, now I really get to absorb everything and just be in this holy space day in and day out. So I really had a good time. And while I was studying psychology, I needed a job one semester, and I found a place, a family that was hiring ABA tutors or ABA therapists. And for those who don't know ABA stands for Applied Behavior Analysis. And was. Maybe still is, but for sure was at that time the number one, go to treatment, especially for early intervention for autistic children. And it's based on principles of operant conditioning with psychology. So operant conditioning says there's a stimulus, a response, and a consequence. So the stimulus can be, I give an instruction, the response is the other person's response to that instruction. And then the consequence is what I do after that. I give a reward or a punishment based on this other person's response. And so the idea was, we can train these autistic children to be more normal, to be. To kind of look normal, so that if you were to say, look at a crowd of students, here's the kindergarten class, would you be able to pick out which one is autistic? And that was the goal. And so you can see how this is. It's very controversial now, and I'm not sure how I feel about it now.
John Dehlin [00:37:59] But anyway, it's basically kind of like Skinner and Pavlov. It's basically as psychologists in the 50s and 60s were trying to figure out human behavior. They would do a bunch of tests on dogs and pigeons and rats and then say, hmm, how can we apply this to humans? And it turns out with things like autism, it can be really useful
Margi Dehlin [00:38:21] when used in a healthy way.
Rachel [00:38:22] It depends on who you ask. Right. If you ask the parents of the child who want particular outcomes, and we were getting those particular outcomes, it was extremely useful in that way.
Margi Dehlin [00:38:32] It reminds me of Mormonism.
Rachel [00:38:36] Your grownups have expectations.
Margi Dehlin [00:38:38] Oh, just this idea of, like, adults deciding, you know, the. What they want from a child and having it be very adult focused, like, I want this for you. It would be much easier for me if the way you were and the way you showed up in the world made it easier for me. Forget if it's honoring to you. Forget if that's innately what would be healthy for you. It's just very much about the appearance, as opposed to the inner life of the child. What. What it feels like to be them, what their emotions are, what their reflections, having them reflect and be full human beings. It's just like, nope, what we're gonna. You know, what it kind of boils down to for me is, you know, can you look the part?
Rachel [00:39:23] Right.
Margi Dehlin [00:39:23] And in that way, make my ego feel secure and like, I'm doing a good job as a parent and, you know, all those things.
Rachel [00:39:30] Absolutely. And it can feel very dehumanizing to the person that you're doing it to. And so, anyway, this was my experience, so I taught this kid. He was two and a half when I started, and it was me and this team of other also BYU students. And we were trained on site. Everything was very, very tightly monitored by a psychologist. And he would give us feedback all the time. He would watch how we interact with this kid and say, no, you did that wrong. You need to go back. It was extremely precise protocol that we had to. And this also just reinforced this idea. Okay, I'm going to get obedience from my kids. And the way that I'm going to get that from them is to give a stimulus. They give the response, I give the consequence. Operant conditioning. I have made it. I have unlocked all of the secrets to parenting.
Margi Dehlin [00:40:28] So you have the key.
Rachel [00:40:29] I know everything, and I'm ready to have children now.
Margi Dehlin [00:40:33] Oh, I so get that. And I so relate to that honestly. And the security of that, like, you know, the security of feeling like I know the plan, I know the secret. So we just do this, this and this, and it yields this.
John Dehlin [00:40:48] Where token economy is part of it, where you, like, you know, you. You create a, like an economy of, of reward within the family. You want positive reinforcement. And so if kids do this or that, they get tokens and then they can buy stuff with the tokens. And was that part of it?
Rachel [00:41:05] Not necessarily the ABA therapy that we did? No. They wouldn't have been out of the question in the philosophy of parenting that I was having at the time. But no, that wasn't part of ABA therapy.
Margi Dehlin [00:41:16] And this, I did this. You were kind of exposed to this prior to you having children. So this was kind of part of you. Your kind of, what would I say? Foundation, moving into the expectations and kind of your personal approach.
Rachel [00:41:34] That's right.
Margi Dehlin [00:41:35] Yeah. Okay, that makes sense. Beautiful.
Rachel [00:41:39] So if.
Margi Dehlin [00:41:41] Describe maybe for a minute. Did you want to say something over there? I mean, describe for a minute if you would like the. Your parenting now, prior to your transition, if we were going to drop in on what you were doing and what it looked like prior to your faith transition, what type of parent were you? What structure kind of did you have and what were, like, some of the beliefs behind that?
Rachel [00:42:08] Yeah. So this would have been when I first had my kids. Obviously they're too little to really do much with.
John Dehlin [00:42:16] But then quickly, I'm assuming you married in the temple.
Rachel [00:42:20] Oh, yeah.
John Dehlin [00:42:21] Do you want to talk for a second? Just about, uh, yeah, kind of like to what extent you went through the Mormon milestones leading up to Margi's Christian.
Rachel [00:42:30] Yeah. So let's see. During that time that I was doing the ABA therapy, I. I met and got engaged with my husband and graduated byu, got my bachelor's degree, and then we moved out of state, so I wasn't able to continue ABA therapy. But by that time, by the time I had left, we had reached so many desirable outcomes. So I was very encouraged. So we move away, I get a job. We end up not having kids for about six years. So that was really the first time I really rebelled in a strong way, feeling like maybe I know what's best for when we need to start having kids.
Margi Dehlin [00:43:13] Was that a conscious decision? That was something. Mm.
Rachel [00:43:17] And really, for the first time, doing some critical thinking and saying, maybe I need to take the reins on this instead of just listening to what the prophets and apostles have said in the past about how we need to not delay having children.
Margi Dehlin [00:43:33] Yeah.
Rachel [00:43:36] And part of that is because of the psychology courses that I took at byu, actually learning critical thinking, really, for the first time ever.
Margi Dehlin [00:43:45] Yeah.
Rachel [00:43:46] So we get married. We got married in the Jordan River Temple. So that was fun. And I was ecstatic. Not only getting married to my best friend, because he's awesome, but also, like, I made it. I made it. The thing that I worked so hard for all these years, since I was, you know, 12 years old, I was taught temple marriage. Temple marriage.
Margi Dehlin [00:44:10] That's right. You have arrived. Yeah.
Rachel [00:44:12] I got my endowment. This ceremony was weird, but who cares? I'm here, and I'm wearing the garments, and I'm part of the club, and I have a ring on my finger, and I made it, and I could just, like, you know, just tears of happiness.
Margi Dehlin [00:44:26] It was like the young women's summit. It's like the summit. Right? That's the parallel. It's like.
Rachel [00:44:33] Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [00:44:33] Everest summit. When you're. That's as far as we go. There's nothing beyond that, really, with young women, but 100%.
Rachel [00:44:40] Yeah. This is. I have made it to the pinnacle of my life. Now I just have to endure to the end.
Margi Dehlin [00:44:45] Yeah.
Rachel [00:44:46] The hard part's over, Right?
Margi Dehlin [00:44:48] Okay.
Rachel [00:44:48] Yeah. So. So we do end up waiting several years before we have our first, and. And then we had. We had our first, and then 18 months later, our second, and that was really close. It was conscious also, and I knew it was going to be rough, and. It was rough.
Margi Dehlin [00:45:04] It was.
Rachel [00:45:04] It's really rough having two children so close in age, especially when they don't. They just don't want to sleep, and then they have different nap schedules during the day, so it's not like I can nap during the day to catch up. So that was rough. And then we had our third two and a half years after that. So. Yeah, so they're currently ages 9, 7, and 5.
Margi Dehlin [00:45:27] Okay, great. Okay. So they were probably pretty young then, right, when you were kind of prior to your faith transition, if we're talking about parenting. But what were kind of your beliefs, expectations at that point?
Authoritarian vs. Authoritative Parenting Approaches
Rachel [00:45:43] That's right. I realized I went around in a circular way a little bit, trying to get back to your original question. What did it look like? So what's a snapshot of my parenting back then? So I was very warm. I was very warm and tender with my children, but also had this idea that they really need to be obedient to me. And if they're not, then I will make them be obedient to me. Because that's what we do with operant conditioning. If someone doesn't do the correct response, then I make them do the correct response. If my son doesn't want to pick up his little Cheerios that he dropped on the ground, then I say I give the consequence, which is just no. And then I give the. The stimulus again, pick up the Cheerios, and then I take his hand and make him pick them up. And then the response. Or, sorry, then the consequence from me. Good.
Margi Dehlin [00:46:38] Right.
Rachel [00:46:38] Thank you. And so it kind of just like escalated from there as he got older and bigger and really didn't want to clean up his stuff or will. Yeah. Or hit his little baby sister or, you know, any little things that little kids can get into. Then we would start doing, okay, timeouts. You know, now you need to have a timeout. And if he wouldn't sit still in the timeout, then I would make him physically make him sit still in the timeout. And. And we would talk about it afterward. You know, why did you do that? Do you understand that was against the rules?
Margi Dehlin [00:47:16] What.
Rachel [00:47:17] Why do we keep the rules? Blah, blah, blah. And so there was a lot of good talking going on and hugs, and it was very warm. So again with that mixed bag. You know, this wasn't just this awful, terrible, super traumatic way of parenting. And I want to make that clear that just because someone is more of an authoritarian parent like I was, doesn't necessarily mean we need to call CPS or, you know, that they're abusing their children, you know, and it's actually like,
Margi Dehlin [00:47:50] you were more authoritative than authoritarian because of the warmth A little bit. Yes.
Rachel [00:47:56] Yes and no. It was definitely leaning more toward authoritarian, for sure. There's there's not like this one way or the other. It's a spectrum. Right. And I for sure leaned more toward the authoritarian part of the spectrum. And here's how that came up in really harmful ways is when somebody does something that is so, so deeply against your values, that's usually when you're going to get triggered. And that's usually when as a human being, you might fly into a rage or have a tantrum yourself or feel really, really big feelings about that. And so when my biggest value was obedience and, and my kids weren't doing that and they were stomping their feet and saying, I won't now like my heart starts beating faster, my blood starts boiling and I start seeing red. And now like my logical part of my brain is turning off. Right. I'm not thinking clearly anymore. I'm not making good decisions anymore. Now here comes the yelling. Now here comes. I'm going to make you sit in time out and I might be a little bit too forceful about it. Yeah, right. And you're not sitting good in timeout. I will strap you in for timeout and if you're going to be throwing things, I will close and lock your door and keep you in there.
Margi Dehlin [00:49:13] Right, Got it.
Rachel [00:49:14] And unfortunately, my oldest happened to be quite an anxious child just right from the get go. And all of these things, like seeing his mom have her own tantrum and being locked in a room by himself, all of these things really gave him a lot of fear and made him feel unsafe at home, which is the only place he ever gets to go because he's so little. And so this was causing a lot of anxiety in him.
Margi Dehlin [00:49:45] Yeah.
Rachel [00:49:45] And as time went on, I could see it was causing some self esteem issues as well. Him saying, I'm stupid, I'm not good enough. Mom doesn't like me. Because authoritarian parenting, what it does is says, I'm the person in charge, I'm the moral authority. If you don't do what I say or if you don't live up to my expectations, then that is your moral failing. And if I have a big reaction to your moral failing, that's justified. But if you have a big reaction to me, that's again, your moral failing. So my poor anxious child was growing up with this idea that he was not good enough, he wasn't worthy, and he wasn't safe with himself because he was so failing morally.
Margi Dehlin [00:50:45] That's right.
Rachel [00:50:45] So often.
Margi Dehlin [00:50:47] Yes. It so reminds me of the scarcity model with children. That.
Rachel [00:50:52] Right.
Margi Dehlin [00:50:52] It's that idea that I do think Is inherent in authoritarian, authoritative parenting of just your child comes with a basic lack. It's like the depraved. The depraved model. Right. Of just. Unless we teach, unless we control, unless we pour into them things. They, at a basic level are not inherently good. They're not inherently. As opposed to what we'll probably talk about a little bit later, which is the opposite. But that does. It informs everything about the child. The child can feel that sense of like lack, that inherent. Just sort of lack. And I think it's too showing how the difference between it being child focused, where the lack is always the child as opposed to the parent it being parent focused. Like, what's coming up for me and you know, how do I work through these feelings I'm having when it's. It's amazing how parents really can have a difficult time holding the emotions of a child when they tantrum. It's like we'll abandon you and put you in timeout and you get no right. But for their own tantrum, it's always okay. It's always like, well, you and you shouldn't have or. But it's really just a tantrum. Just an adult having a tantrum, you know. So that focus on that parent focus versus the child focus feels so telling in the models, you know. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I totally. I'm relating to a lot of. Of what you're saying.
Rachel [00:52:25] Thank you.
John Dehlin [00:52:27] A couple things I'll maybe throw in. Is it when you have. When you have an approach like ABA operant conditioning, you know, it's kind of almost like to someone with a hammer, everything's a nail.
Margi Dehlin [00:52:42] So true.
John Dehlin [00:52:43] You feel like you've got this thing and this is the way you're going to approach it.
Margi Dehlin [00:52:46] Just like hammer it.
John Dehlin [00:52:47] Yeah. And sometimes maybe it can be a robot. I don't want to say you were robotic, but it can just be like, oh, you're doing this. This is the answer. And it can, I guess maybe it can dehumanize the kid a little bit. Not seeing the kid and seeking to listen and to understand and to customize. But it's just like, oh, you're acting. I need to apply y response. There's probably good and bad to that. But then the second thing that I thought of is that this is very much parenting like the church.
Margi Dehlin [00:53:19] Exactly.
John Dehlin [00:53:20] You know? You know what I mean?
Rachel [00:53:22] Yes, absolutely. I mean, this is the God of the Old Testament. This is what he does.
Margi Dehlin [00:53:27] It's so true. Yeah. That is what we learn.
Rachel [00:53:30] Book of Mormon and the early saints, you know, you do what you're supposed to do. You please me and I will bless you. I will bless you so much. But if you cross me, boy, you will regret it for eternity.
Margi Dehlin [00:53:42] And you have no love. There is no love for you right in that moment. It's like I'm gone.
Rachel [00:53:47] Ooh.
Margi Dehlin [00:53:48] And you don't even get to talk to me.
Rachel [00:53:51] You don't even get to hear from me. You won't have access to the Holy Ghost if you do wrong things and you make yourself unworthy of its presence. Yeah, that was. Yeah. That's the kind of parenting that, that all of that really leads to this very conditional parenting. This. I'm mad at you and I'm not going to stop being mad at you or withdrawing my love and my support from you until you appease me.
Margi Dehlin [00:54:20] Yes.
Rachel [00:54:20] So you do the steps of repentance and make yourself worthy of me again.
Margi Dehlin [00:54:25] That's right.
John Dehlin [00:54:26] So we come by it honestly and there's probably. Maybe it works for some kids, maybe it doesn't work for others. Or maybe there's a flaw quotation mark.
Margi Dehlin [00:54:35] Works. Right. Because what you, what you really mean or what parents say by works is that I get the, the outcome of appearance, I get the desired behavior, but that completely, like it does not show what's going on on the inside to make that behavior. You can have a completely self betraying child. That's not working. Right.
John Dehlin [00:54:59] Even if they're conforming to the behavior you want.
Margi Dehlin [00:55:01] Exactly. What we want is like hopefully connected children, children who have a sense of who they are and actually can defy authority when they need to.
John Dehlin [00:55:11] Including ours.
Margi Dehlin [00:55:12] That's right. Yep.
John Dehlin [00:55:13] We'll get, we're getting there.
Margi Dehlin [00:55:14] We'll get there.
John Dehlin [00:55:14] We're jumping ahead. Sorry.
Margi Dehlin [00:55:17] So what I'm hearing as, so we're dropping in and what I'm hearing is kind of this authoritarian, authoritative and really, can I just say, like when, when you take that on this approach to your children's behavior, it can feel like this is hard. It requires something of the parent. And I think it's hard. It's an answer. And in that way it's, it's like you get safety from it, but it's effortful. And in your wiring, didn't it feel like love? Like I'm doing this because I love my kids. Like I want good things for them. I want them whatever, to be disciplined or I want them to be. What, what was going on in your mind when you were doing it?
Rachel [00:56:00] Yeah, this is, this is their eternal salvation. This is Their eternal life. If I can't get them to learn obedience here in their formative years, how are they going to learn it later on in life? How are they going to learn to obey Heavenly Father and the prophets and the Scriptures? And if they don't do that, I won't see them in heaven and I won't be with them in heaven. So all of this was done out of a feeling of love and concern and really feeling like this is life or death stuff. So when I was triggered by their behavior that I didn't like, that was not being obedient, it felt really big. Like this is a big deal and deserves a big reaction from me and my big reaction is justified because there's
Margi Dehlin [00:56:47] so much at stake.
Rachel [00:56:49] We're at stake.
Margi Dehlin [00:56:50] There's so much at stake. Right? Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:56:53] And that can make things super tense and stressful. Right.
Rachel [00:56:56] It definitely escalates things. I mean, if my 4 year old is escalating and I'm escalating and they escalate back and then I escalate back. Yeah. Things can feel and be out of
John Dehlin [00:57:08] control really fast, kind of disproportionate for what's going on. But if you've got eternal consequences on
Rachel [00:57:14] your mind, that's that eternal perspective. Right.
John Dehlin [00:57:20] Which I'm used to only hearing as a positive thing. Right. But you're saying it had.
Rachel [00:57:24] That's how it was weaponized. That's how it was weaponized. How I weaponized it against myself and then with my children as well.
Margi Dehlin [00:57:31] Yeah, that's such a good point. So in particular, how is religious orthodoxy kind of not serving your parenting style? What were the beliefs or the things you had learned where you can kind of say that was not helpful?
Rachel [00:57:49] Putting my children's obedience as the number one value in my home was so harmful. It was harmful to them in their tender, vulnerable little years. And it was harmful to me and my relationship with them too, because it's harder for us to connect with each other. If I am just that enforcer, I'm their jailkeeper, I'm their police. But I had gotten so good at that. I was so good at that with myself. And I thought, I'm going to be so good at that with my kids. But I was really missing out on the connections that I could have been making with them. And again, not to say like I had no connection with them. It was all on a spectrum. But it could have been so much better. And then to know that I was that source of anxiety and feeling unsafe for them and understanding my background in psychology, how our internal voice starts to develop at a pretty early age. It's around like age 5ish, depending on the child. And that internal voice stays with you your whole life, and that's going to be your constant companion. What kind of internal voice am I giving my children?
Margi Dehlin [00:59:11] Yeah, exactly.
Rachel [00:59:12] And when I realized that, so I realized something has to change. And I don't know what and I don't know how, but something's got to change.
Margi Dehlin [00:59:26] Yeah. Are there any stories or moments that you remember from this time, like just moments of suffering where you remember, here's the rub. Here's where my parenting. I see it. I see the suffering either in a child or in a. How did it show up?
A Turning Point in How Rachel Parented
Rachel [00:59:43] So after a particularly big tantrum on my son's part, and on my part, he apologized to me afterward. I thought, I'm the grown up. I'm the one who's supposed to have a handle on things. I'm the one who's supposed to be able to manage my feelings. He's a little kid. He shouldn't be the one apologizing to me. I should be there first apologizing to him. That really. That really hit home and that really made me feel, why am I getting so triggered by this? But I couldn't at the time, I couldn't understand why it was affecting me so much and why I had these really, really big feelings about it.
Margi Dehlin [01:00:29] Yeah. Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:00:32] And so I. What I'm. The theme I'm catching is that, like, if you have this conditional love model, if you have this Old Testament God model, if you have this behavior else model, withdrawal of love, even high stakes, that can lead to an escalation of. Escalation of frustration. That's kind of Old Testament Bible God slash parenting that's kind of Mormon for some kind of Mormon parenting that we all come by honestly. And you're saying that that wasn't the type of parent you felt was maybe best for your kid.
Rachel [01:01:08] Absolutely. Yeah. And like you said, we come by honestly. And right now I really want to emphasize that although this, my channel, is called post Mormon parenting and everything I do is about post Mormon parenting, I really don't want to give the implication that I believe that all Mormons are bad parents or that all Mormons parent with this authoritarian kind of way, because that's for sure not the case. I have some really, really beloved friends who are still very much active and believing in the church, whose parenting skills I really look up to and inspire me. And I think they are fantastic parents and connect really well with their children. And so I really, really don't want to give the impression that this is everybody's experience. That because you were raised Mormon, you must be an authoritarian parent. For sure. Not. But this definitely was my experience.
John Dehlin [01:02:04] How is it harming your kid, do you think?
Rachel [01:02:07] Well, like I said, you know, my son's self esteem, I could hear his internal voice developing, especially when he would talk to himself when I. When he didn't know I was listening. I could call himself stupid.
Margi Dehlin [01:02:21] So heartbroken.
Rachel [01:02:22] Yeah. So sorry.
Margi Dehlin [01:02:23] Yeah. Right.
Rachel [01:02:23] Like, that's. That's the internal voice that is going to be with him the rest of his life. I. I can't. I can't have that. So self esteem, his internal voice, and my son's anxiety seemed to be getting worse and worse as he grew instead of better. Like I thought, you know, he's growing up, he's having more experiences, he's gonna get more perspective, his anxiety will decrease. He can see that he's resilient. And really, the opposite was happening. And so at this point in time, my son is like 5 or 6, and my girls are younger, so they're not getting much of this because they're just not quite old enough.
Margi Dehlin [01:03:01] Yeah.
Rachel [01:03:01] For these things to be happening as much. So really, my. My oldest is. He really got the brunt of. Of this. This kind of parenting.
Margi Dehlin [01:03:10] Got it. Yep. Okay. And so what was. Would you name that as kind of the catalyst then for change? What would you kind of say was the turning point for you to kind of say, okay, you know what? New, we're kind of knocking down this tire. We're going to do tower. We're going to do something new.
Faith Crisis and Its Impact on the Family
John Dehlin [01:03:29] And was that. Did that come before, during, or after your faith crisis? Because we want to definitely hit that as. As you also answer this.
Rachel [01:03:36] So this started my time of being curious and saying, what else is there? Maybe, maybe I don't have it right. Maybe I need to go back and do some, like, remedial parenting courses or something. And I talked to neighbors and friends and all of the things that they suggested and the different kinds of courses that were available really was pretty similar to what I was already doing. So I thought, oh, well, maybe this is it. That maybe I am doing what I'm supposed to be doing and things will just work out eventually. But I still had this curiosity in my mind and still, like, keeping my eyes open for new ideas. Right around the same time is when my husband went through his faith crisis, which was absolutely devastating to me. Again, this is life. And Death stuff. This is our eternal family is at stake. I was not on board with him going down the rabbit hole of reading the resources that he did. It was an extremely difficult time for both of us. Thank goodness. A neighbor of mine had recommended the Marriage on a Tightrope podcast with Alan and Katie Mount, who are just fantastic hosts and really had a lot of great quality content to listen to. So I binge listened to all of their podcast episodes that I could and really felt like I got my grounding again and felt like, okay, I can do this. Here's my independent self coming back up. I've been through things before and I'll be get through this. And my husband and I are still really, really great for each other. We're gonna stick together and we're gonna see this through. And it also really, I was becoming more and more curious about things and wanted to make sure that my husband and I wouldn't have this like, taboo thing that we couldn't talk about between the two of us. So I'd say, go ahead, turn your podcast on. Like, I'll listen to what you're listening to. Like, what kind of garbage are they saying now about the church and how are they bashing this church that I love so much? This is the time when I really started understanding a few more things about the church that I loved so much that had really enmeshed with my personality that who I, who I was. And there was this one particular podcast from Radio Free Mormon and within 24 hours I binged listened to so many episodes and then by the end of it I was like, well, I guess it's, I guess I'm done. So it was very, very quick. Done believing in the truth claims of the church.
John Dehlin [01:06:20] Oh, wait, so what do you want to talk about? Like what, what the things were that kind of.
Rachel [01:06:26] Sure, yeah. I mean, Radio Free Mormon, all of his episodes are fantastic. So it could have been anything. But I just happened to listen to what he was saying about McKenna Denson because this was at the time when things were really going on with McKenna Denson and Joseph Bishop. And I, I hope I'm not mispronouncing her name, it might be Dennison. Anyway, someone can correct me. And he did a three part series. So my husband had turned on the podcast late one Friday night after the kids were in bed and we listened to it and I was like eye rolling, you know, half the time. But then as he presented his case more and more, I really started listening closely, realizing, oh no, oh no, there's something really sinister going on within at least someone in the top first presidency or quorum of the 12. This is not who I thought they were. And he laid out his case so, so perfectly and so convincingly that I realized, like, this really is the case. And I, I could hardly sleep that night. I listened to. It was a three part series. I listened to the next one and the next one and went to bed super late, Woke up in the morning, turned on more of his episodes like, well, what else? If the authorities that I had looked up to my entire life had lied or been deceptive and done something so bad, like, sure, they're men, they can make mistakes, but this is not just a mistake, this is really bad. What else, what else are they not being forthcoming about? What else are they lying about? What other things have they done? And so that got me even more curious. And so, like I said, I listened to his podcast all day. The next day I'm just like earbuds in doing all my regular chores. By that night, I had realized, you know, I, I don't think any of the truth claims of the church are true anymore. And I don't think that the members of the Quorum of the twelve and the First Presidency are who they say they are and represent who they say they represent. And so I, for a long time tried to make it work anyway, saying, well, this still is my home and this still is where my values are, I think, and this may still be how I want to raise my kids. So I still attended for a few months, really tried to make it work, but the more I went, the less value I got out of it. The more I had to give myself pep talks and saying, like, it's not that bad, it's okay. The more I started seeing the harm that the church was doing, and I felt like we had a pretty good Relief Society group that I could speak openly with until I said one thing.
Margi Dehlin [01:09:32] Until you spoke openly.
Rachel [01:09:33] Right, right. It was the. It was shortly after Russell M. Nelson had become the new president of the church and had decided, we're gonna not be called Mormons anymore. We're gonna use the full name of the church. And I had remembered back when I was a young teenager and he had said that in general conference. Can't remember what year it was, but when he was just an apostle, he had said, let's not use the term Mormon. Let's use the full name of the church. And I was like, okay, on board, because I'm going to follow all the rules and I listen and take notes on every conference talk, so I didn't miss it. And then I remember six months later, President Hinckley had said, no, no, Mormon means more. Good. We're fine. We can still use the term Mormon. And then there was the whole I am a Mormon campaign. So when now President Nelson came out and said, we're not going to be using the term Mormon, just the full name of the church. And then one of my dear, sweet friends gave a lesson on that in Relief Society. In subsequent weeks, I was sitting in class and she had said, you know, President Nelson said that when we don't use the full name of the church, that's a victory for Satan. And now I. I think back on all the times that I use the term Mormon, and that was a victory for Satan. And I just feel so bad. And she was like, really on the point of tears. This is very sincere and genuine. And I just wanted to, like, throw my arms around her and say, you're fine. This is fine. This is just an opinion thing. Like he said this way long ago. President Hinckley disagreed. Now he gets to be president and make the rules. And it's really just his opinion. You're fine. Like, you weren't doing a victory for Satan all that time. And so I raised my hand and I made mention of, like, oh, you know, he said this way back when. And I. There was just, like, total silence. You know, nobody agreed with me. Nobody supported what I said. The lesson went on as normal, as if I hadn't said anything. And I realized, you know, I can't really change the church from the inside out. I can't sit here and try to help other people see things like that. There's really no point in me being here anymore. So I think I went to, like, one or two after that and. And then solidified my decision. I'm just. I'm just not going to go anymore.
Margi Dehlin [01:11:58] Yeah. Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:12:03] Where was your husband during this time in his journey?
Rachel [01:12:06] Oh, I forgot to mention. Oh, yeah, he was totally out. So he was com. He had done several months of study for himself before he realized for sure the church is not what it claims to be. He doesn't believe in it anymore. And then from that point, it was probably about five or six months before I had listened to that Radio Free Mormon podcast and kind of came to the same conclusion myself. So it was a rough six months, but it's always nice to be on the same page again. So that was kind of nice coming out of it, to be on the same page again. And he had not been attending church. He would go with me if I really asked him to, to help wrangle the kids, but it was not a place that he loved to be anymore.
Margi Dehlin [01:13:00] Okay, so now your kind of faith tower falls, and on some level, this also affects parenting. Yeah. So you had kind of left off saying you would. You were kind of curious, right? You were looking around with parenting. Is that right?
Rachel [01:13:15] Right.
Margi Dehlin [01:13:15] And kind of looking for new ideas.
Rachel [01:13:17] Here comes the fun stuff now. Now it gets a little bit more fun because now the whole world is open to me, and now it's okay to not have the answers anymore. And maybe I don't need to know everything right now, and maybe I don't need an eternal perspective like I had had. Maybe I just get to live in the moment and have things, still be curious. Maybe I can just still be curious my whole entire life. And so I started devouring new books and podcasts and YouTube videos, and I really, really loved what I heard from Noah Rashada's podcast on secular Buddhism and got myself some books on Buddhism and loved this idea of, again, being. Being curious and letting go of this idea of moral judgment, saying that there's a moral judgment attached to every action or thought or behavior. It just. It is what it is. And let's be curious, where does that come from? How is everything connected? And then from there, being more conscious about things and trying to be more aware of my own self and my own thoughts and doing some meditating and trying to evaluate my thoughts without judgment, without saying that's a good thing or that's a bad thing, which you were.
Margi Dehlin [01:14:44] So that was one of your defining things. Right?
Rachel [01:14:48] That's superpower.
Margi Dehlin [01:14:49] That's right. So that reprogramming or rewriting. Right. Probably took some effort.
Rachel [01:14:55] Yes. Yeah, it was a lot of intense study for myself and by myself. And I would share some things with my husband and with my kids as I. As I saw fit. But mostly it was like, I'm so hungry for all of this new perspective and new understandings, and where has this been all my life? I thought I had the one true church. And sure, I never said we had a monopoly on truth, but I thought we had most of it, you know, and so why hadn't I ever heard of any. Any of these things before any of the principles of Buddhism. And then I was listening to, like I said, lots of podcasts, including your podcast that, Margi, you did with John and Natasha Helfer, the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis. And that was immensely helpful as well. And your episodes that you did about parenting. And don't forget to include that in the show notes, because those are really, really helpful. And your book recommendations. And Margi, you had suggested these books by Shefali Tsabari. And she. She really has this really great way of explaining how parenting, I think, like you had said in your couple weeks ago interview with John Ogden, we think it's so much about the children. We think we're shaping these children. We think we're raising and disciplining these children. But really, it says so much about ourselves. And so I had been on this journey of asking why for the first time, Really, I got to ask the why behind every commandment, behind every teaching, behind everything that I believed and everything that I valued. Why? And. And that didn't stop with my parenting, too. And this really helped me have some major breakthroughs. Why do I feel this way? Why do I value obedience so much? Why do I freak out when my kids are not giving me obedience? And that's when I really got to do some good conscious parenting and parent myself in a way that I hadn't been parented. And so some inner child work was helpful. I did my own therapy with a therapist. Just really got to learn so much more about myself and then be able to see my children's behavior and say, okay, that's not like a morally judgmental thing that you did. It's just, it is what it is. And why did you do that? And instead of having this operant conditioning model now, like, you did that, now you need a punishment or a reward now it's like, well, let's sit down and have a conversation. Why do you think you did that? Where did that come from? And understanding that just like all of my beliefs and behaviors and ideas, all of those come from a place, they come from somewhere. How can I extend that same grace to my children? All of their behaviors are coming from somewhere. There's a reason that they're doing what they're doing. So maybe instead of just punishing them for doing what they're doing, maybe if I find out the reason they did that, we can address the reason, the root. And this was a huge paradigm shift for me, and it made massive improvements with my children. That doesn't mean that they always do things that I like. But that's not the goal. The goal isn't to get them to behave in ways that I want them to behave. That's not the goal anymore. Now I really enjoy a much better relationship with each of my children. And here was a time when I. When I really knew things were going to be okay. My daughter, she was six at the time. Maybe she and I were driving out to get a treat for her. I can't remember why. I think it was just like, let's just spend some quality time together, just to me and you. And so we were going to this place to get some shaved ice. And in the car, she was talking about how excited she was, I was talking about how excited I was. I'm so happy to be here spending time with you. And she said the same. And then she said, you know, I wish that Daddy and my brother and sister were here with us to enjoy some shaved ice also. And that's when I knew, okay, like, I've made it right. Like, I. I can raise morally grounded children without the church, because at this point, we'd been not attending for more than a year, and I think something like that. And she still has all this love without threats of hell or shame or being disappointing to heavenly Father or having to repent and, oh, Jesus suffered for you because you did that. Without promises of heaven or the Holy Ghost being with her. None of these externally motivating things were shaping how she felt right then. And I hope that there was very little that I was doing in my parenting, too, that would be like an externally motivating thing that shaped how she felt right then, but that she really internalized this value of empathy and that she could express that. Not that she was too concerned with that to enjoy herself. Like, she really was able to enjoy herself and. And be present with me and at the same time, hold space for the others who didn't get to come with us. That was really, really groundbreaking for me. And I tucked that away in my memory of, like, I can do this. I can. I can raise these really kind children, and I can have a good relationship with them, and they can have a good relationship with one another, and. And they can learn these values without having to police themselves like I did, and without having to worry about this eternal perspective and without really having to worry and stress so much like I had to, and without feeling like, oh, Mom's gonna punish me, and I feel unsafe in this and I need to go hide in my room without any of that also. And so things really dramatically improved around our house. There was so much more peace at home, and everybody felt more safe. They felt safe to express themselves. They felt safe to express their emotions, and they felt safe about their emotions, too. Now I'm not having so much fear about, like, oh, my gosh, I Am having a tantrum and I'm out of control, and I don't know where this is, and this is kind of freaking me out. And same with my kids. Now we get to name our emotions, and we practice that. We practice naming our emotions. We why are we feeling this way? Why are we feeling it to this degree that we're feeling it, what is it telling us? What do we need to do about it? And how can we make peace together? What can we do about it together?
Shifting from Control to Connection in Parenting
Margi Dehlin [01:22:09] Yeah.
Rachel [01:22:10] Another thing that was really, really helpful at this time, besides learning about Buddhism and besides reading Dr. Shefali Tsabari's books and besides all the podcasts and things, another thing that was really, really helpful was this particular episode of Daniel Tiger's Neighborhood. And I highly recommend it, even if you don't necessarily have children. It's a children's show. It's a spin off from Mr. Rogers neighborhood. And every episode, they have a cute little song, and it. It just teaches the kids something. Something important. And in one episode, they were learning about conflict resolution. Like, what do we do when one person wants something, but someone else wants something different? Well, here's what we do. We each say what we want, and then we come up with a plan that makes everybody happy. And I was like, this is it. Where has this been all of my life? Because here I am, as they're grown up, I want certain things. I want them to keep their room clean. I want them to be kind with each other. I want them to pack their own lunch and be responsible. I want them please just go to the bathroom. And they want things, too. And so instead of now having this authoritarian view, like, well, I want these things, so you do what I want because I'm the adult and you're the kid. Now we get to do, I want things and you want things. What kind of plan can we come up with together? And it is so much more helpful. And at the end, I'm happy and they're happy, and everybody gets what they want. And there's. No, not really any reasons for tantrums. We still get overwhelmed sometimes, but we. We know so much better how to. How to handle that. Instead of just punishing the tantrum, we find out what's going on.
Margi Dehlin [01:24:00] Yeah. Yeah. There's so much there. There's so much there that you've talked about. But one thing that really sticks out is that shift away from control to connection. And it's connection with you, but it's also connection with them. Like, as you're talking about, you Know how you now hold emotions as part of a human experience, and you know how difficult it can be to hold difficult emotions. Right. And how desperate we can feel. But now they have a parent that actually can meet them there, as opposed to put them on a stair and leave them alone and say, that's what happens to you when you get upset, by the way, is you get sort of outcasted and the love's gone. Or there's just so. There are so many. And I love the conflict resolution of this idea of that is a life skill, if there is a life skill, is just. Yep. So here. Here's my perspective. There's your what do we do? I just love so much about that. Now, what's interesting is it's. We come from a different place when we don't know what we don't know in parenting. And then what happens, or at least what happened and continues to happen as my children get older even, is when you. When you do know what you didn't know, then you have grief. Right. And you have loss come up around some of the things that you did when you didn't know. Has that happened for you? And if so, where are your places of grief and loss?
Rachel [01:25:31] Absolutely. I think the best healing can come when the person that has wronged you can sit with you and hold your feelings with you and sit with you in that pit of vulnerability like Bernie Brown describes, and say, I own that, and I'm so sorry that I did that. And I recognize the depth of harm that I did to you, and I won't do that again. And so I have a lot of grief about it. And I've been processing that over the last years. And the best thing that I can do is to sit with my children, especially my oldest. And I don't think there's any expiration date on apologies. I think it's helpful to do it over and over and revisit that as my grief comes up and as his grief comes up and as his anxiety gets triggered, as he remembers those scary times when he felt unsafe, I can apologize again and again and again.
Margi Dehlin [01:26:56] Yeah.
Rachel [01:26:57] And sit with him and hold those feelings with him again and again. And that's all I know how to do.
Margi Dehlin [01:27:06] Yeah. That's where the healing is.
John Dehlin [01:27:10] Mm.
Margi Dehlin [01:27:13] Yeah. I love that. That's beautiful. That is one of the hardest aspects, I think, of parenting is just that we're all becoming amidst it so inevitably we don't know what we don't know, you know? And that's where the damage is done. And so that's the best we have. In addition to, you know, that. That apology and empathy and sitting with. And also kind of that commitment moving forward of like, what do you need? Okay, I'll do that. I'll show up in a different way. I commit to you. I will. And I'll change it. Moving forward. Yeah. Well, beautiful. So what would you say kind of some of your victories are and challenges, the hardest parts to rebuilding around parenting? What. What do you kind of. What comes up for you? You could do whichever first you can start with. Kind of if there's anything that sticks out, you kind of have done that you did a little bit with your. Your daughter going out. That. That was kind of a victory moment. Right. Of like, it's going to be okay. You know, clearly things are falling in line enough that we have this moment and we have, you know, if there's anything else that you wanted to share with regard to kind of victories or. And even how. Okay, let's go this direction for a minute. I'm curious because I do think sometimes in the process of parenting, you awaken to your own wounds. Part of it does shine a light on, of course, the parent. And sometimes the voice that we speak with is actually the internal voice we have. Right. Or it's the voice of someone who spoke to us in that way. Right. That we can hear so. So clearly. But I guess my question kind of there is, in this situation, in kind of evolving with your relationship with your son, did you awaken to anything about reparenting yourself around how you want to show up differently for you?
Challenges, Struggles, and Hard-Won Victories
Rachel [01:29:22] Yes.
Margi Dehlin [01:29:23] Yes.
Rachel [01:29:23] And this is kind of what prompted me to seek out my own therapist, realizing, oh, I think I have some unprocessed trauma that I need to work on that's coming up in these times when I'm getting triggered and I need to talk with someone about this and I need to learn how to process that so that it's not rearing its ugly head in front of my kids that I'm not taking out on them. And I didn't think that I had any kind of therapy to do. I thought my childhood was fine. Everything was fine. I love the way I grew up and I love my adolescence, and everything about my life has been fine. And there were some hard times, but I was resilient and I'm fine, and I don't really have anything to recover from. And boy, was I wrong. And a lot of things came up for me in therapy that I never really thought about in many years. And so processing that was really, really important so that it's not coming up at unexpected times. One of the things was when my son picks on his little sisters, that number one, that's not okay, right? That's harmful. And they're younger than you, and there's a power dynamic, and you're so much bigger and stronger than they are. And there's a consent issue maybe, you know, you're playing roughhousing, and they seem like they're having a good time, but they're actually not. But they have a hard time speaking up because they're younger. These kinds of things really trigger me when I see him picking on them. And it wasn't until I realized, because that's how I grew up, because my brothers would pick on me, and I had no grownup around to defend me and to make me feel safe again. And my brothers were kind of unpredictable, too. And so it wasn't just something particularly scary happened. And that's hard to recover from. It was every day, is something scary going to happen today? And living in that fear and being in that constant state and then seeing things happen in front of my kids, in front of me, I'm right back there. I'm like in my daughter's shoes, little tiny shoes, looking up at my big brother, so scared of what might happen. And so I've had to first become aware of that and then talk with my son about that. Listen, when you do this to the girls, it reminds me of when I was in that position and I didn't have any grownups and I didn't have any advocates advocating for me, and I felt really powerless and really explaining thoroughly what that felt like to be in that position so that he can understand. First of all, don't do that to your sisters. That's really. That's scary for them, especially, you know, your size difference and everything. But also, this is why Mommy has really big feelings about that. This is why in the past, I've yelled at you for that. When I don't yell at you for other things that seem like they're similar infractions. This is why I get really, really big feelings about this in particular. And I think that's been really helpful, too. And that has. I love one day when my son said to me, mom, don't yell at me. We don't yell at each other. I was like, oh, you've learned. I'm so proud of you. And I'm. I'm so glad that you understand that when I yell, that's a reflection on me. So going back to what we said about authoritarian parenting. When a child doesn't do what the grown up wants them to do, then that's a moral failing on the child's part. Now, my kids understand if an adult is freaking out at you, that's a failing on the adult's part. You know, that's not on you. You're not responsible for their emotions. You're not responsible for maybe what triggered them and what past trauma they might have. That's not on you. You know, you're just a kid. So that's been really helpful and I hope has eased some of his anxiety that he doesn't have to worry so much about, oh, am I. Am I going to make mom feel a certain way and then have the reaction that's going to be on me? So that's been really helpful. The other thing that I wanted to talk about that's been really a victory and a win and really awesome to see, was my youngest was playing all by herself. One day. I was nearby, but she was playing by herself, and she did something really difficult, and she says, yes, way to go, self. She didn't say self. She said her name, but, like, way to go, me. That was really great. And I was like, the internal voice.
John Dehlin [01:34:21] Yay.
Rachel [01:34:23] She's developing her internal voice, and it is encouraging and it's positive, and it's going to be her cheerleader. And so no matter where she goes, she's going to have a cheerleader along there with her. And that made me feel so, like, so much relief and. And just, like, so. So much joy and happiness at seeing that. So those have been some really, really good victories we've had.
Margi Dehlin [01:34:49] Yeah, beautiful. And what would you say? Have there been harder aspects or real, you know, blocks or in your parenting journey? And if so, what. What have the hardest or harder aspects been? Would you say it's the grief? Or what would you say?
Unlearning Deep Conditioning as a Parent
Rachel [01:35:09] I. Moving away from what was so ingrained in me, it's really difficult to remember to use my new practices and my new skills because my old skills are so strong. They. They really were my superpowers. I was so good at them, and I could write books on how to do it. I had really become an expert in, you know, stimulus, response, consequence. I was. When I get tired or when I get exhausted or if I'm distracted, you know, I will revert back into those ways. And so I definitely don't want anybody to feel like, oh, she's saying all these great things. She must be such a, you know, so good at it. No, These are new skills that are. I'm still working on and I'm still practicing and getting better at. This has been the hardest for me is to not slip into those old ways and into those old habits.
Margi Dehlin [01:36:12] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I love that you talk about them as practices, you know, on a. It's like an ongoing rewiring.
Rachel [01:36:21] Right.
Margi Dehlin [01:36:21] That we're all doing. I think oftentimes, you know, sometimes with my clients, it'll come up this idea of changing their thoughts. John. So, like, I wish I didn't have that thought about parenting, or I wish I didn't have that thought of shame or. Or like this idea of really wishing that they could erase some of that programming and just have it disappear from there. And I guess, I mean, I'm curious about your thoughts about that, but in coaching, I'm always talking about. Yeah, I mean, I guess. I guess there's that. It feels like that would be a very. Like, how long have we been programmed? Like, decades and decades worth of the socializing behavior, but. And internalizing all the things. But maybe it's just more that you're aware that you have that thought, and then you. You actually reframe or come up with your update and you act differently, and maybe that's enough. What do you think?
John Dehlin [01:37:22] Yeah, I mean, you're bringing up, I think what Rachel's bringing up, which is just how deep the wiring goes for the conditioning that we all or subjected to. And it's. It turns out it's not particularly useful to wish you didn't have certain thoughts or feelings, because what we know about the brain is you don't choose your thoughts and you don't choose your feelings.
Margi Dehlin [01:37:45] Exactly.
John Dehlin [01:37:46] They kind of happen to you. And the more you try and shame the thought or feel bad about the thought or try and make the thought go away, ironically, your brain magically produces the thought more or produces the negative feelings more. So, generally speaking, with the brain, acceptance is always going to kind of be better than resistance or kind of fighting what's going on inside. And so, and this comes from either acceptance and commitment therapy, which is my training, or kind of secular Buddhism, learning to just say, oh, I'm. Oh, I'm experiencing the thought that, you know, I'm experiencing the impulse to do consequences and punishment, or I'm. I'm having the internal voice again about shame or about, like, eternal consequences. And, hey, thought, welcome to my brain. You can be there, stay as long as you want, but I can also choose a reframe or I can choose other thoughts and so instead of, like, seeing those thoughts as enemies, instead of trying to make them go away, there's kind of this move that's kind of in fashion to accept the thought, welcome the thought, allow it to be there, not try and fight it, but then choose the reaction or the reframe or the thoughts that you want. And that's just usually a more effective approach.
Margi Dehlin [01:39:07] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:39:08] And patience, giving yourself time. Because if you're 30 or 40 years into your conditioning, it's not going to go away in one year.
Margi Dehlin [01:39:16] Yeah. And watch expectations, too, because I think that's part of it is like this expectation of, like, oh, well, I don't believe that anymore. So why am I having these thoughts still? Why am I in this sense of, like, judgment, of like, I should be farther or I shouldn't be having the thought, or like, just really watching and moving into noticing your thoughts as opposed to, like, overly judging them, which we all have PhDs in coming out of Mormonism, most likely. But yeah. And this. Everything that you've kind of like. I feel like you've given just such a beautiful rebuild and such a different, like a then and now kind of parenting approach so beautifully. And what. What really is coming to the forefront to me is just this empowered, conscious. It is this idea of moving away from reactivity, which, by the way, requires emotional regulation on the part of the parent. Right. Do you. And then. And then moving away from reactivity into intentionality. You are now you are choosing. Right. Talk to me, if you don't mind a little bit of, like, the emotional regulation piece. And in that moment, how you take care of yourself amidst those, like, initially very overwhelming, difficult feelings that can come up in parenting.
Rachel [01:40:37] Yeah. I'm still not very good at that.
Margi Dehlin [01:40:41] It's a process. It's a. I love the assessment, though. That's also very Mormon. I feel like I'm a c. I'm not.
Rachel [01:40:48] Great.
Margi Dehlin [01:40:49] Let me evaluate myself. Yeah, yeah.
Rachel [01:40:53] I'm still practicing. I think I understand that when our brains are flooded with emotions, we're not going to be using our best judgment. We're not going to be thinking straight. I've explained this to my children also, like, I'm not giving you a timeout. I just feel like we all need some space from each other. We need to feel our emotions. And then after we've processed or digested them a little bit, then we'll be able to think clearly and we can talk with each other about that, which is so different from how I used to parent. I used to look at the parenting Books that said, if you're going to give a consequence, you have to do it immediately, right away.
Margi Dehlin [01:41:33] That's big.
Rachel [01:41:34] Yeah. So that they associate the two things together, their behavior with the consequence, which really just. It really backfired. Because now their brain is so flooded with all these emotions, and you're trying to teach them something. Right. Then they're not going to learn anything. And they didn't. And so now we take space. And I, on days when I am well rested and good at it, then I'll say, mommy needs some time. Mommy has some very big feelings right now. I'm gonna go to my room or I'm gonna go to, you know, wherever I can take some deep breaths. I need you to do the same. And then we'll come and we'll talk with each other afterward. So having that space is so important to listen to your emotions, feel them. The more you try to fight against them, the more that's gonna backfire. But to feel them. And I tell my kids, it's like when you eat too many sweets and you have it and it's in your stomach. There's nothing to do about it. You can't really do anything. You just have to wait for your body to digest all of it and understand that you will feel better in a certain amount of time. So it's the exact same with these really big emotions. Maybe someone got really upset and the other person apologized, and they really did a genuine apology, but the upset feelings are still there. You just need to let them digest for a little bit. Now is not the time to start a new game or keep playing with each other. You need some space and go digest a little bit. And it's the same for me. I really, really need that space. And sometimes that's impossible. And this is where we get into, like, really, really tricky parenting scenarios. If you have one kid, great. You leave your one kid and you go and have your space. But if you have other kids who are like, one person's on the toilet and needs to get wiped up and another person just, like, dropped glass on the floor, I can't. I cannot go and have my own space. And so giving myself grace, understanding, like, those are times when I will be overwhelmed and I will have a big reaction, and I can apologize for it afterward, and I can try to, you know, make it up to my kids afterward and make sure they understand. That was a me thing. That was a me reaction. That was me being overwhelmed. This isn't on you. This isn't your fault that I reacted that way. So the tricky part is of course, remembering to go and take that space as often as I can.
Margi Dehlin [01:44:08] Yeah. Yep. New practicing. Yeah. Beautiful. Okay, so I feel like you were able to discuss a couple resources. You mentioned secular Buddhism, Noah Rashada, you mentioned Shefali Sabari and her books. And then were there any you wanted to add as being just important in your rebuilding that you found helpful?
Books and Resources That Have Helped
Rachel [01:44:33] Yeah, definitely. There's also the Explosive Child. I wrote it down so I wouldn't forget the Explosive Child by Ross Green. And that one was really helpful for really driving this point home that children, there's a reason behind what they're doing.
Margi Dehlin [01:44:49] Yeah.
Rachel [01:44:50] And if they're not doing something well, you know, maybe they're not getting ready for school in the morning and getting to school on time. And this is a big source of stress in my life right now. Why? What tools do they not have? Of course they want everything to go smoothly. Of course they want for everyone to be happy and peaceful. They're not doing this to push your buttons. A child will do well if they can do well if they have the tools and resources. So it's really like digging deep and saying, what does my child not have? What have I not given them to help them be successful in these ways? I want them to be successful. So that one was really helpful.
Margi Dehlin [01:45:35] That's with the Explosive Child.
Rachel [01:45:37] The Explosive Child.
Margi Dehlin [01:45:37] And is there some mental mention of also, like sometimes it's a child's brain. Right. And their makeup and their nervous system.
Rachel [01:45:44] It's been a few years since I read it and I can't remember, but of course, I mean, my oldest also has adhd and so the things that I can say or do or practice with his sisters aren't always going to be the same with him and the parenting. It's not a one size fits all.
Margi Dehlin [01:46:02] The true gift of parenting. Yeah.
Rachel [01:46:04] Yeah. So that's tricky too. Like what emotion regulation does he not have because he just isn't old enough yet. Right. And maybe he, he just can't pay attention in these ways. Maybe he just can't have these executive functions that I'm expecting him to have. So that. Yeah, that's absolutely helpful. There's also the Self Driven Child by William Sticksrud. I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing his last name right.
Margi Dehlin [01:46:36] I love that book too.
Rachel [01:46:37] That one's fantastic. And really drives the point home that children really need autonomy. They really need independence and this feeling of autonomy. And as much autonomy as we can give them, the better off they'll be. And really, it's true of any human being. If you think about yourself, like, if you feel like your life is not in your hands and your destiny is not in your hands, that can feel very, very stressful and very depressing. And it's really not good for mental health. And so if we can give our children as much autonomy as they can, their mental health will be all the better for it as well. So that one was really super helpful. And like you said, letting go of that control and letting them be in control as much as possible.
Margi Dehlin [01:47:26] Yeah.
Rachel [01:47:27] There's also Untigering by Iris Chen. She is interesting.
Margi Dehlin [01:47:32] Yeah.
Rachel [01:47:32] She's an Asian American woman who has spent some time living in Asia as well as in America, in North America. She's Chinese. And she talks about her upbringing by what she would call tiger parents. And it's very authoritarian, it's very cultural. And, and her journey in untiggering or deconstructing this, this kind of parenting for her. And the parallels are so similar. Although I'm coming out of a faith tradition and she's coming out of more of a cultural tradition, the parallels are just striking. So I highly recommend that book as well. And she has some really good takeaways for going through that deconstruction process and then rebuilding afterward. Lastly, I want to mention is Parenting Forward by Cindy Wang Brandt. She said that she spent her formative years in a school in Taiwan for children of missionaries, and that's really where she got her exposure to conservative evangelicalism. So now she is a parent and she's trying to raise her children unfundamentalist. And like, how do we go about that? How do we navigate that and what are the itty bitty details of that? She also has a really helpful Facebook group called Raising Children Unfundamentalist, which I highly recommend. And it has a lot of engagement, really, really great, thoughtful questions and thoughtful comments from people all around. And she also has a book and a, and a podcast that are very helpful as well. So those are all some really excellent resources for the parent going through this. And then I know I said lastly already, but I'm going to say lastly again, for our children, for our children growing up through this, especially for my kids, maybe felt like, well, what do we believe now? What's been helpful for them? Having these children's books called Annabelle and Aiden? Yeah, the Annabelle and Aiden books. They have a series of children's books and they go through things like how the world was created and how evolution works and what happens when we die. And these are very non theist, not religious kinds of answers. These are all like, let's be curious and let's find the awe all around us and, and also let's ask all the questions and let's practice our critical thinking. And so it answers some questions for kids and encourages them to think about things critically. And I absolutely adore this whole series and it's very bright illustrations and everything is very like on a kid's level, very easy for them to understand. Very well written. I, I love all of these books. So I highly recommend the Annabelle and Aiden series.
Margi Dehlin [01:50:27] Yeah, beautiful. That's beautiful.
John Dehlin [01:50:30] I've never heard of Annabelle and Aiden, but I wish we'd had that when we were raising our kids.
Rachel [01:50:34] It's really helpful. Oh one, one other book that's, that they have in their series is also about religious belief. And I really want my kids to be culturally literate and religiously literate and understand the things that their peers are believing and understand. You know, I think there's this temptation to think, oh, they're crazy for believing, you know, crazy things. But if I can help my kids understand, like, no, like this is, there are valid reasons for believing that I was like that myself. And here's what some other religions believe and why and what it means to them. And so if I can help them become literate in that way, that's also helpful. So they have one of a book like that in their series also which is just, just fantastic.
Margi Dehlin [01:51:21] Beautiful. Those are great, great resources.
John Dehlin [01:51:25] Two others that come to mind, there's one called Parenting Beyond Belief. I don't know if you've heard of that book.
Rachel [01:51:30] That was on my list too. Yes. By Dale McGowan. Also really, really helpful. That was really, especially when I was wondering like, how can I raise these kids with a sense of ethics without the church. That one was particularly helpful with that as well.
John Dehlin [01:51:46] And then just John Ogden's. We talked about, we had John Ogden on recently and I, I, I'm guessing his, his resources are really good. I'm not even remembering what they're called, but Uplift Kids. Okay.
Rachel [01:51:56] Yeah. He's the founder of Uplift Kids.
John Dehlin [01:51:58] Yeah.
Rachel [01:51:58] Yeah. Also really, really great helpful resources.
John Dehlin [01:52:01] Beautiful.
Margi Dehlin [01:52:02] What I think is so interesting about parenting is it, I do feel like, you know, you're the parent's personality comes into play a little bit. How much structure you really feel like you have the energy for and then versus so you can have a highly structured approach. And I, I know you could do many different levels with John Ogden, but Like, that does feel like it gives sort of parents this. This structural kind of idea this way or. And then they're just approaches too, where you're kind of changing your approach and relationship to yourself, to your children and how you kind of show up. And that's the magic. It's like there's a whole spectrum. And I think a key part, personally, I'm curious about your thoughts though, is I think finding that match of honoring yourself, showing up for yourself and showing up for what you're seeing as the needs for your children and finding that match and where it doesn't match, hopefully using resources to kind of supplement and help you. What do you feel?
Rachel [01:53:09] Yeah, no, absolutely. It's interesting. You talk about showing up myself and my kids. It was so mind blowing for me to understand my feelings and thoughts and approach aren't necessarily better or more important than that of my children's. I had this adultism. I'm better than you.
Margi Dehlin [01:53:32] We're superior. Yeah.
Rachel [01:53:33] I'm superior than you. And I will raise you to be as good as I am someday. And isn't that also the Mormon way? That's what our heavenly parents do. We are superior for us. You can't even be in our presence right now.
Margi Dehlin [01:53:46] You can barely mention Heavenly Mother.
Rachel [01:53:49] Right.
Margi Dehlin [01:53:50] She's so.
Rachel [01:53:50] Yes, right. We are so much better than you. But we will raise you to be as good as us someday. So understanding that my feelings and needs and wants are just as important as theirs. And that's where this comes into play, where we. This is what I want. This is what you want. Let's make a plan together and let's let it be unanimous. Because we all are so important to each other and not one of us has to be inferior or superior. And that's just been so transformative.
Margi Dehlin [01:54:26] Yeah.
Rachel [01:54:27] And yeah.
Margi Dehlin [01:54:28] Yeah, it kind of reminds me like it's the biggest maybe protector against creating another unhealthy system. It's just a family system.
Rachel [01:54:37] Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
John Dehlin [01:54:39] And you're reminding me of maybe one of the least helpful parenting resources, which is the book the Giving Tree. Because you're laughing. What were you gonna say?
Rachel [01:54:49] Well, I found on Reddit, I don't know, a couple years ago on exmormon subreddit, someone, and I wish I could remember who. Do you know what I'm talking about? Had done like, this is how the Giving Tree should have ended. Here's the Giving Tree. The book is found.
John Dehlin [01:55:05] Yeah.
Rachel [01:55:06] The tree has just gives and gives and gives and gives and gives and it's self sacrificing. And that is a value in and of itself.
John Dehlin [01:55:12] And it ends up a stump.
Margi Dehlin [01:55:14] Right.
Rachel [01:55:15] And so how it should have ended, the tree has boundaries and says, well, I'm just as important as you are and I'm happy to share with you and you share with me. We have this mutual relationship together. And isn't that so much, you know, like parenting where I think we were taught to be, oh, you're just supposed to be very self sacrificing and not have any boundaries and just give everything you can to your kids and. And now, you know, I think a much better approach is, well, I, I'm gonna do what's good for me and I will respect what's good for you as well and give you everything that I can that's good for you while it's good for me too.
Margi Dehlin [01:55:58] Yeah. Yep. Do you know what's interesting in thinking about the Giving Tree though, from like a literature perspective? John is just, I wonder people's experiences reading the Giving Tree because I wonder what people felt at the end because you can't get away from how you feel when you looked at the tree with all the apples and the leaves that at the end the boy's just sitting on a stump. Like there was a wrongness in that, there was a loss in that as the reader where you were like, that does not sit well. That doesn't. So, like, as an artistic expression, I think it's interesting.
Moving Away from Self-Sacrifice Toward Healthy Parenting
John Dehlin [01:56:35] Yeah. And what, what's complicated and I don't want to make things all of a sudden heavy and dark at the very end. But like in a Christian mindset, Jesus sacrifices his life.
Margi Dehlin [01:56:45] Yeah.
John Dehlin [01:56:46] For all of us. So there's this self sacrifice and there's the story of Abraham and Isaac and how the kid is the father's asked to sacrifice the son. And. And then if you think about Mormonism, parents sacrifice for their kids. And I think women maybe even sacrifice for their kids in Mormonism more than men. But then there's also this idea that the members sacrifice for the good of the church. And so there, there really is this self sacrificing narrative built in and the idea of selfishness. Right. You know, but what I learned from Oprah, a new prophet, wisdom, leader for me, and I've said this a gazillion times on the podcast, is you can't, you can't give what you don't have. And what you want is a healthy, vibrant parent with lots of interests and a lot of strength and resilience and mental health. And then you can show up as the best parent. So the model isn't drain your resources, beat yourself up, sacrifice everything until you're bitter and angry and resentful and spent and mentally unwell. You're not going to be your best parent that way. Instead, invest in yourself, get your hydrate, eat right, exercise, have fun time, invest in yourself, be the best you can be, and then you can show up and be the best parent that you can be. Instead of the giving tree, become a stump metaphor.
Margi Dehlin [01:58:09] Yeah.
Rachel [01:58:10] And if anybody is doubtful of like, oh, I didn't get that message from Mormonism, you know, think about the scripture. Greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friend. And aren't we supposed to be able to or be willing to lay down our lives, whether literally or just metaphorically. I'm going to lay down everything that I hold dear in my life for the church or for my children.
Margi Dehlin [01:58:38] Yeah. And I don't know how it felt for you, but that teaching with this idea of, you know, Jesus dying for me and me kind of coming like my existence comes with a debt, this terrible, violent thing that happened to. And I feel that, you know, and so you have that sense of like what that feels like to have that image and that story. Then you can also turn that with your children. Like, how, how do you think your children would feel if you give all, but they see you be completely fatigued, uninspired, disconnected. You know, that's not a gift for a child. If, even if you're giving them breakfast, even if you're showing up and driving them to school, like, you know, there's a loss there that, that I think children deserve the gift of seeing their parents, you know, be significant to themselves and thrive.
Rachel [01:59:35] Right. Not to be in just survival and crisis mode anymore, but to, to thrive.
Margi Dehlin [01:59:40] Yeah.
Rachel [01:59:40] To feel like I as a parent can thrive and, and I have so much more to give now. And I'm so much more emotionally regulated now because I am taking such good care of myself.
Margi Dehlin [01:59:52] Yeah. So let's end there. Let's end with this idea of like we had the then, you've done a bit of it, but let's just end on the now. You in parenting and what's the difference? Give us a slice of then just to end us with and then now this sort of new journey that you're on with parenting, why it feels, let's just say more honoring more values driven, more you. Whatever you want to say about it. Yeah.
Rachel [02:00:19] Then would be me feeling self sacrificing. I'm Going to give everything I can for my children so that they can live and have eternal life. And I'm going to make them accept that gift no matter how much they don't want it, because I know better than them. And there was so much stress in my life and I was burned out every day. Today I take a lot better care of myself. I have my own hobbies and I still feel that deep guilt in my bones about having my own hobbies. But I do them anyways because I know where, I know where those feelings of guilt come from and I know that's not my authentic self. I enjoy doing my own things. I don't get burned out so much. Still happens sometimes, but I don't get burned out so much. I'm so much happier, a more pleasant person to be around. And I manage my emotions so much better now. And I can be there for my children to really validate their emotions and validate their experiences and what they're going through and help them have a safe person, a safe, non judgmental person to talk to. And they tell me all sorts of things that I would not know otherwise. They tell me about people at school that have been mean to them and they tell me about like, well, grandma or grandpa did this thing and that made me feel safe and unsafe and I didn't like it. Whereas I don't think that they would have felt safe telling me those things before.
Margi Dehlin [02:02:12] Yes.
Rachel [02:02:12] And now I can address those issues, whereas I just wouldn't have been aware of them before. So things are so much more open. My kids can be vulnerable with me. They know that I'll take them seriously. I'm so much happier. We have so many fewer meltdowns and so many fewer tantrums from the kids and myself.
Margi Dehlin [02:02:32] Yeah.
Rachel [02:02:33] And. And life is just, it's so much more peaceful now. So I love it, love it.
Margi Dehlin [02:02:38] We appreciate you. Thank you for sharing your story, your parenting thrive story here.
Rachel [02:02:44] Thank you.
Margi Dehlin [02:02:44] Really been beautiful to witness.
Rachel [02:02:46] Thank you so, so much for having me here. It's been such a pleasure talking with you both.
John Dehlin [02:02:52] Yeah, thanks. Rachel. What a treat to have you and what a lovely story.
Rachel [02:02:57] Thank you.
Rachel's Post-Mormon Parenting Community and Resources
John Dehlin [02:02:58] Do you want to share what your resources are just to close and what you're trying to do and where.
Margi Dehlin [02:03:03] Oh, you mean her contacts, where people can find her.
Rachel [02:03:06] Yeah.
John Dehlin [02:03:06] And. Well, it's also an initiative. Right. It's like a project or you're kind of.
Rachel [02:03:11] I mean, I just, I do it when I can. So as life gets busy, I won't put out as much content. I Don't make any money off of it. So it's really just a labor of love. It's just when I feel passionate about something and I feel like, oh, everybody needs to know this, then I'll share as I can as I have time and space to be able to do that without children all up in the screen. But I do have several YouTube videos out, including a three part two series on raising ethical children with or without religion. And I think that's a really great place to start if somebody's just starting out on this journey and wondering like I was like, oh, I feel like I'm flailing around and I just don't know. I feel out of control and I don't know how I'm going to be able to raise the kids without the infrastructure of the church. That's a really good place to start. Is that YouTube series. And again it's just post Mormon parenting channel on YouTube. I also am on TikTok which is super fun and I love the ex Mormon community that we have on TikTok. Be prepared to spend a lot of time though there if you. It's a, it's a big time suck but it's so worth it. It's really, really helpful. Also Instagram and if anybody wants to get a hold of me, they can message me on one of these platforms or they can contact me via email. It's post postmormonparentingchannelmail.com It's a mouthful, I know, but again, postmortemparentingchannelmail.com and I promise to put out as much as I can and just be another good helpful resource. Not, not certainly not the only resource about parenting after Mormonism, but one voice of many adding to the conversation and adding to what can we all learn from each other as you know, people who are navigating this space together.
Margi Dehlin [02:05:06] Yes. Beautifully said. Can I say I love it. Thank you. Thank you for being here.
Rachel [02:05:12] Thank you so much. It was such a pleasure. Yeah.
Margi Dehlin [02:05:15] And thank you all for joining us for another episode of Thrive Stories. We'll see you next time.
Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.
One Response
Wow. You guys really nailed this with explaining the obedience/scarcity/authority model. I understand now why some of my friends raised this way never believed in their own compass. I remember my mother’s expressions of disdain for parents who abdicated their child rearing responsibilities to the church. (She always treated us as though we were essentially good. She would confer with us, even as children. That respect we eventually internalized into self respect. Not that we didn’t misbehave or get punished, but we had our own self respect as reassurance and our guide.