Opening Bishop Interview on Church Attendance

Part 1 of 6 · Ep. 1264

John Dehlin [00:00:04] Patience. Well, hello. Close the door. Sure.

Guest 4 [00:00:10] How are you tonight?

John Dehlin [00:00:11] Good.

Guest 4 [00:00:13] How are you doing? Well. So have. Have the iPad, huh? Is that what it is? Yeah, those have become quite the popular item and I have seen them around and had people show me things, but I've never, never really played with them. More convenient than a laptop or just smaller for me.

John Dehlin [00:00:35] I have to read a lot of PDF files for my dissertation and I won't have to print them all out. And if you're reading something for a long time, holding a laptop, like in bed or on the couch, hurts your wrists and stuff.

Guest 4 [00:00:51] So this is like a light. A big Kindle. Exactly. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:00:56] But you can check email on it, you know, and do other stuff.

Guest 4 [00:01:02] Another topic. Haven't seen you much out of church. I thought you'd kind of committed to becoming as much as you could. So just wondering if I was going to see you soon or where we're at there.

John Dehlin [00:01:18] Yeah, I actually enjoy coming and I have come some. I don't know, I have a minimum where it's really important to me to come at least once a month and I think I've been making that. But I do travel on some weekends. Like I was in Boston last weekend and then sometimes there are family things. But I'm committed to staying active, so. So I don't know how to bridge the gap between what you've seen and what I'm feeling I've been doing. But there's probably something in the middle between how much you've seen me and how much I've been there. But there's also been some things that caused us to miss, so. But I don't think my commitment's changed on my end.

Guest 4 [00:02:08] Okay. So still committed to being active and coming to church. And last time we talked a little bit about where your testimony was, I think last time. Boy, that's been months ago. You may not even remember that conversation. But I did ask you specifically about your testimony of Jesus Christ and where you were at with that and felt like we had a good discussion. Feel like that's about where it was or a little stronger, a little less. Where are we at.

John Dehlin [00:02:39] Such a big topic. I still consider myself a believer in God and I still believe in what I consider to be the core teachings of Jesus and try to follow him and the things that. The things that would be different. Well, if there'd be any difference in the way that I would articulate my testimony about Christ than yours, it would be just in areas where I don't have an understanding or certainty. But I don't deny anything that you would say. I just sometimes, like I told you before, just get confused about certain things or don't understand certain things. And so I don't kind of put my focus on him and just try and focus on living the behavioral guidelines he taught us to live like faith and repentance and love and charity and kindness and obedience and all that stuff.

Guest 4 [00:03:59] Those are all good principles and that's good. The first one you mentioned though, the faith part, that would be easier if you were here more. It would. Well, good. I'm glad we're not declining in that area because that is something that I worry about when I don't see people is where are they at with their faith and their testimony. Want to help you in that regard. If there's things that I can do.

John Dehlin [00:04:36] I think I told you this a couple times ago when we met before I met with the Stake President. The hardest part about coming to church for me is it's not the people because I really love the people and I really love coming.

Guest 4 [00:04:54] That's good.

John Dehlin [00:04:55] It hurts me to not come to church. It's not something where I'm like woohoo. I feel a big loss when I don't come to church and I've always loved it. What's hard for me is sometimes things get taught that go against my values and that's just sometimes. And so it's hard to hear things that feel wrong to you spiritually. And then sometimes I have a different perspective than people and I just, when I share it, it makes people uncomfortable. I feel like. Or I worry. But then if I just quiet, I feel like I'm kind of a second class citizen. So I don't want to be disruptive.

Guest 4 [00:05:47] Right.

John Dehlin [00:05:49] But being quiet makes me feel like I'm not really accepted as a full member. And so I just. But I really don't want to ruin like I used to. I used to teach elders quorum and there would always be like four or five guys who just were really bothered by the things I'd want to talk about or want to work through. And I just. Others were really grateful. They're like, wow, we love your lessons, we're really glad you do it. But I never was able to feel good about making those few brethren uncomfortable. Right. And so that's just, that's the hardest part for me is just

Guest 4 [00:06:28] I did hear that you gave great lessons, so I've never heard anything other than that. I do believe that you would, could have from our conversations the potential to get on some Tangents that could cause people to be uncomfortable or to have some disagreements. And depending on the setting. Yeah, that may or may not be the right venue. But I did not ever hear anything other than that you were an excellent teacher. So that's good.

John Dehlin [00:07:06] But that's what I struggle with. I don't like splitting up the family. I'm supportive of my kids being in the church. So that's just the thing I have to figure out how to work through.

Guest 4 [00:07:22] That's really the problem.

John Dehlin [00:07:24] And the only temple recommend question that I feel like I can't answer in the right way is just this. This tithing thing. And we. We've started paying some tithing again. So we're. We don't feel good about having our family benefit from affiliation with the church and not supporting it. So I don't. What we've done is we've taken a good chunk of the 10% and we pay that, but we save some of that and just give it to a few other causes that we feel good about. And I'm not proud of that. I'm not, like, throwing that in your face. I'm just telling you that's how we've worked through, not feeling super good about a couple things. So I don't know. I'm not trying to be difficult.

Guest 4 [00:08:10] No, no. I'm once again just trying to see where you're at, because. Yeah. And that actually is interesting to me that that's the one that you highlighted that you're concerned about. So as far as the others, I mean, the first three questions are all about testimony. And so.

John Dehlin [00:08:30] Well, that's an interesting thing because, you know, I just visited the Cambridge ward in Boston, Massachusetts, and, you know, depending on the bishop, you'll get different perspectives

Guest 4 [00:08:47] on what a testimony is or unlike

John Dehlin [00:08:51] what's a problem and what's not a problem. You know what I mean? And having doubts. Some, Some. And I'm not. I don't say this is a judgment. I don't. But. But I think there are sometimes different thresholds of empathy for doubts, you know, for, like, I feel. Sometimes I feel in a conservative place, like my doubts or questions are kind of looked down upon. There are other places where it's like, doubt all you want. Questioning is good. And, you know, none of us know for sure. Anything really. And there are different gifts of the spirit. And so I guess I'm just saying that there are. I know that there are bishops who, if I were to express my concerns about the Atonement or Jesus or God or whatever, and just Say I have doubts or I have concerns or I have questions or I don't understand. They'd be like, don't worry about it. As long as you're trying and you're working for it and you're studying and you're helping.

Guest 4 [00:09:54] Well, see, I think you hit the key right there. If you're working towards things to have a perfect knowledge and understanding or perfect testimony in all areas is probably not that many people could say that. But you can have the burning in your bosom, you can have the witnesses that you need to know that the major components are correct. And once you've got that down, then you can start working on those little ones. But, yeah, if you're working towards it, that is different than. So to me, yeah, I don't see a problem with people having doubts if they are striving to find out truth.

John Dehlin [00:10:39] And I really. It may be natural for you to think that because I'm not always in church, that I'm not working at it, but I work really hard at it, believe it or not. And I'm really trying. I'm not goofing around. I'm not, like, looking for ways to get out of things. I'm a pretty serious guy, and I work really hard at my religion and trying to find out what's right and study and pray, and it's just hard. It's just people like me have a hard time. We don't want to. You know, it's not something we would choose. If I could choose, I would feel good about coming to church, and I would come all the time, and I would have a calling and I would contribute, not split my family up. And I'm really. I'm still working on it. That's how I feel.

Temple Recommend Questions and Testimony

Guest 4 [00:11:41] The third question in the temple recommend is about the restoration of the gospel. Do you have a testimony of that?

John Dehlin [00:11:48] Well, see, I can answer all those questions the way that you would. The way that I would need to, to get a temple recommend. It's just about how I would describe what that means.

Guest 4 [00:11:58] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:12:00] Do I believe that there's a God and that God inspired what's led to today's church? Yes.

Guest 4 [00:12:09] Part of the reason I'm asking about that is because that restoration, if there was no restoration, then we have no priesthood, then there is no reason for you to even want to baptize Winston. That whole scenario just. Yeah. Be a complete waste of time, actually. And so. Yeah. Well, so would the restoration be a waste of time if there weren't? If we didn't have Jesus Christ and the atonement and the gospel plan itself. So those, I guess, are significant questions, and maybe they're asking that order too. The first question is about God the Father, Son, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost. So do we believe that God's out there and then this is what he did for us? And those second two, they're all related?

John Dehlin [00:13:04] Well, I believe that the priesthood has power and that the church is inspired by God.

Guest 4 [00:13:14] Good.

John Dehlin [00:13:16] And that hasn't changed in years. Now, details, you know, we might have some.

Guest 4 [00:13:24] Well, I know you've had some frustrations, or maybe that's not the right word. Some concerns about some of the history of the church, which, by the way, the church itself. There's some history out there that's not very pretty. I mean, I could sit and list all the things that. Things where we were wronged and some things that we did that were flat out wrong and the people of the church are not perfect.

John Dehlin [00:13:54] Yeah, that hasn't been an issue for me a long time. The thing that I struggle with is feeling like I'm forced to say that other churches are false. You know, I don't have a hard time saying our church is in spite of God, but we talked about this. I just don't like saying that if someone gets baptized Methodist, that that's illegitimate. You know what I mean? And I don't even know if it's legitimate. I just don't like being put in the position to have to judge others and say that we're better. It just makes me. I mean, it feels unchristlike to me for a church to say we're better than everybody else. So I just don't like to think that way.

Guest 4 [00:14:39] And I think part of what you're saying is very accurate. We don't ever want to give the impression of holier than thou or something else. In my way of thinking, which often comes across just like you've described, though we have the whole truth and more to offer, and this is not to demeanor diminish anything that these other churches have. It's just that certain things have been revealed to us, particularly the detailed nature of the plan and the purpose of life. You know, it's just so. Well, to me, it is so clear and helpful to have that direction. And having spent a lot of time, and I have to admit in almost all cases, I've spent the. The time with Christian religions and people of Christian faiths. I have not. Oh, I've delved a little into some of the other beliefs, but it's been mostly Christianity but to hear their beliefs and their aspirations and their goals, to me, they're nice about to hear. But when you can realize that we can progress and become much more than just returning to Heavenly Father, that's a wonderful thing. But when we can continue to have eternal progression in itself, just become better and better as we go, if we'll just follow his plan, keep his commandments, to me, that is something more and extra. And that's what I want to share with people. It's not at all to make them feel bad about where they're at or about the.

John Dehlin [00:16:30] Yeah, I don't believe that Mormons intentionally are judgmental or arrogant. I don't believe that that's in anyone's heart, really. It's just a technicality that is meaningful to me to never want to demean another's faith. And so I can accept the restoration and not want to say things like, this is the only true church. You know, I just don't like saying those things. Touching things, you know, makes me uncomfortable. But I can say this church is inspired by God. I think we're kind of saying the same thing, maybe, or at least very similar.

Guest 4 [00:17:07] Well, yeah, similar. Not exactly the same thing, because I honestly would not want. I would be careful where I said it and in the settings and the way I said it, but I do believe that this is. Has the complete truth. And so in that sense, you could say, as the Doctrine and Covenant says, that it's the only true and living church on the face of the earth. But these other churches came historically from where a lot of that truth came from. So there's a lot of good in them. A lot of good in them. And that's something that I think that sometimes we can get where we can be offensive to other people. Now, part of my reasoning for that though, too, is as you look at the difference in these religions and the difference in teaching of doctrine and things, and you can't have conflicting things both be true and correct. So at some point, the other, the logical side of me says, okay, yeah, these two are not conducive to each other. So one or the other or both are incorrect. And so I guess I am okay saying, yep, we've got it.

John Dehlin [00:18:35] I even think that we. It feels like there's even truths and doctrines that we don't fully understand.

Guest 4 [00:18:46] Oh, I believe that too.

John Dehlin [00:18:47] And things that aren't yet revealed.

Guest 4 [00:18:51] I agree there.

John Dehlin [00:18:52] And even I think sometimes the church makes mistakes.

Guest 4 [00:18:57] I'll go with the church making mistakes.

John Dehlin [00:18:59] Yeah. So I mean, that's why I want humility on this side, too.

Guest 4 [00:19:05] Yeah, but the church. And see, that's. You almost want to hesitate when you say that. But the church is led by people who make mistakes. Everyone, you know, that's. And there is also a progression of knowledge and understanding.

John Dehlin [00:19:19] Yeah, Yeah. I don't mean that in a bad way. I think our church is amazing. Like, I don't even. Joseph Smith amazing. I know he had 32 wives. Still think he's amazing, right?

Guest 4 [00:19:33] He was amazing.

John Dehlin [00:19:35] But I even.

Guest 4 [00:19:36] And I didn't have that count. I knew I had multiple wives. I did not know the 32 where all of those living wives or were a lot of them proxies after.

John Dehlin [00:19:47] Almost all of them were living.

Guest 4 [00:19:48] Were they. I know that there was some. At least some stories given about people after his death, in fact, that were being sealed or married to him and I.

John Dehlin [00:19:59] But that was just a small percentage. Yeah, but I love the church. I really love the church. Church. I love Our Word. I love the gospel. I miss the temple. It's not fun being me sometimes.

Guest 4 [00:20:18] Well, one of those things we're talking about is eternal progression. So, you know, as you're ready and if I can be of assistance to you, I'd be happy to do that. And I would like you to commit to get here as frequently as you can so that

John Dehlin [00:20:40] I need a punch card. So you know when I'm here, just to make sure you're not listening to me. Because when I'm here, I want you to know I'm here.

Guest 4 [00:20:47] Well, let's see. The last time I honestly saw you here that I remember was one of your daughters performing. That's about a month ago. Or maybe more than that. Or was someone else performing. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:21:00] Anyway, I've had a couple trips. I've been to Boston. I've been.

Guest 4 [00:21:05] I really don't remember seeing you in April, but you.

John Dehlin [00:21:11] So.

Guest 4 [00:21:12] So I've been a little concerned.

John Dehlin [00:21:13] Oh, I appreciate it. I. I keep. I maintain my commitment to coming.

Guest 4 [00:21:22] Okay. Very good. Is there anything I can do for you or your family?

John Dehlin [00:21:28] I think we're. I think we're doing pretty well. Appreciate you calling me in. It makes me feel good.

Guest 4 [00:21:35] Well, yeah, I was just, like I said, a little concerned, a little curious about where we're at with things, so.

John Dehlin [00:21:44] Oh, I told brother Lundberg that I'm happy to help out with Cub Scouts whenever he needs me because I think it's a great way for me to contribute where I won't be a threat and contribute to something that my son's benefiting. From and spend a little time with him.

Guest 4 [00:22:08] Well, that's good to know. Well, thank you. I appreciate that. Cubs is a great thing where the tasks aren't too difficult, the kids can have fun, and at that age, they can be solo, for lack of a better word, just silly. Some of the. From the humor to the things they enjoy doing. But those interactions are great and in a positive way where they're working with some adults that do good things. So thank you. I appreciate that. All right, well, that's all I had.

John Dehlin [00:22:45] That's it.

Guest 4 [00:22:45] Hope I didn't keep you too long.

John Dehlin [00:22:48] I thought I was in trouble.

Guest 4 [00:22:50] No, I just. Like I said, just. Just curious where you were at. Things were going all right. All right.

John Dehlin [00:22:55] It's good to know. Thank you, Bishop. It's good to see you.

Guest 4 [00:22:58] It's good to see you, too.

John Dehlin [00:22:58] Hey, Brother Lloyd.

Guest 4 [00:22:59] Brother John.

John Dehlin [00:22:59] How are you? Good. How are you? I'm doing good.

Guest 4 [00:23:02] Good. What's up, man?

John Dehlin [00:23:03] You guys are moving. What's up with that? I know. I need a bigger house. Need a bigger house.

Guest 4 [00:23:07] We do need a bigger house.

John Dehlin [00:23:08] Can't blame you for that one.

Guest 4 [00:23:10] Oh, you've been waiting.

Second Bishop Meeting Begins

Part 2 of 6 · Ep. 1265

Guest 5 [00:00:03] Hey, how are you tonight, Bishop?

Guest [00:00:06] All right.

Guest 5 [00:00:08] Thank you for coming in.

Guest [00:00:10] I'll be right in.

Guest 5 [00:00:11] I'll just. I'm gonna ask the bishop to join us tonight.

John Dehlin [00:00:13] All right.

Guest 5 [00:00:14] So.

John Dehlin [00:00:14] Come here.

Guest 5 [00:00:19] I haven't seen you in a while. There must be. As ever.

John Dehlin [00:00:25] Yeah.

Guest 5 [00:00:28] Last time I used that article in the paper, you're going to go down to what, Orem. And you were some conference or something. You were presenting some paper.

Guest [00:00:39] Yeah, I did.

John Dehlin [00:00:40] I presented it.

Guest 5 [00:00:42] So that's the last I. Anyway, so that was, let's see, kind of a broad conference, if I remember right. Broad in the scope. And they invited you to come, sponsored by the university?

John Dehlin [00:00:55] Yeah, Utah Valley University.

Guest [00:00:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:00:58] And they invited me to speak.

Guest 5 [00:01:03] So as a keynote or one of the sessions or.

John Dehlin [00:01:06] Not as a keynote, as a panelist.

Guest 5 [00:01:09] Panelist.

John Dehlin [00:01:10] I spoke for 20 minutes. I released the results of the survey we conducted for Elder Jensen.

Guest 5 [00:01:17] Oh, okay. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:01:19] Should have brought you a copy of that.

Guest 5 [00:01:21] I want to ask you about that. I hadn't heard anything about that, so I wanted to hear how things went there. Last I heard, you were going to go meet with him, and then I was just wondering how that went. So you finished the work for him, then, that he asked you to do? I thought this in the paper said this was work that was funded from and actually part of your own, I think, Mormon stories money went to that or something.

John Dehlin [00:01:49] Yeah, we didn't get any money from the church, but we did it for Elder Jensen.

Guest [00:01:53] Oh, okay.

Guest 5 [00:01:53] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:01:54] And then he asked us to present it to church headquarters to four general authorities.

Guest 5 [00:02:00] Oh, okay. And you've done that already.

Guest [00:02:04] And.

Guest 5 [00:02:04] Oh, really?

John Dehlin [00:02:06] So is the head of ces, the head of curriculum, head of pr, and the head of the History department.

Guest [00:02:15] Okay.

Guest 5 [00:02:16] Head of curriculum, PR and history. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:02:21] And ces.

Guest 5 [00:02:22] And ces. Okay. So that was where Elder Jensen was still over the History Department, then, right?

John Dehlin [00:02:28] He's still technically over, but he'll be officially released, I think, in October.

Guest 5 [00:02:34] Phasing. Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:36] Okay.

Guest [00:02:39] Okay.

Guest 5 [00:02:42] Now, you were telling me at one time you were doing something with somebody at byu. Correct me if I'm wrong. BYU or something. Was that part of this, too? Or a professor at byu or. You said it hasn't just been you, you've been working with some others on this kind of stuff. I thought there was somebody else that. Can't remember.

John Dehlin [00:03:02] I've worked with a lot of BYU

Guest 5 [00:03:04] professors, actually, with regard to that.

John Dehlin [00:03:07] Or I'm working with the BYU professor on my dissertation.

Guest 5 [00:03:11] Maybe that's what I remember. That's probably what I Remember?

John Dehlin [00:03:14] Yeah. On reparative therapy and same sex attraction.

Guest 5 [00:03:19] Oh, okay.

Guest [00:03:20] Thanks for waiting on me.

Faith Struggles and Approaching Church Leaders

Guest 5 [00:03:22] Okay. I think the paper said something about one thing from your studies that you wanted to focus in on was people wanting to approach their leaders and reluctance to do so. If I remember the article right, it said something that that was. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:41] The study that we conducted for Elder Jensen said that about 20 to 30% of the people who struggle in their faith actually talked to their bishop about it.

Guest 5 [00:03:52] And you wanted to find more about that, the reasons why they don't and so forth. Yeah, Something kind of interesting. So are you going to pursue that?

John Dehlin [00:04:01] Yeah, I mean, it's basically because bishops usually aren't trained in the issues that people struggle with. And so often the bishops either feel defensive or they're not informed or they give kind of simplistic answers.

Guest 5 [00:04:19] So do they seek out and then kind of get these. I guess I won't say cold shoulder, but not the type of. They just feel like it's a dead end and so they don't pursue it. They don't go back. Or do they just not even try to go in?

John Dehlin [00:04:40] About 70% don't try.

Guest 5 [00:04:42] Don't even try.

John Dehlin [00:04:43] Yeah.

Guest 5 [00:04:43] So they have. They preconceived that they just don't feel like they are going to get any

John Dehlin [00:04:48] help there or they've talked to other people who have tried and they've had their temple recommends taken away or they weren't allowed to baptize their children or, you know, they were. They were punished for expressing their doubts or concerns.

Guest 5 [00:05:02] Okay, well, that's interesting. So how did they. How was it received? How did they. Very well.

John Dehlin [00:05:09] The brethren were really grateful for. Was presented to Elder Cook, President, Elder Cook, the apostle. And they're going to take the results and do their own internal survey to kind of validate our findings. Because we didn't have a scientific representative sample. We had a large end. We had over 3,000, but you know, it wasn't randomly distributed and that's a scientific survey, so.

Guest 5 [00:05:37] I see. So we're still working with it. That's quite a group though. 3000. How did. Was that mainly from online type?

John Dehlin [00:05:46] We just went to places where people who are struggling in their faith tend to congregate and said fill out the survey.

Guest [00:05:53] Okay.

Guest 5 [00:05:57] So it's probably representative. Yeah, that's always a hard thing to know.

John Dehlin [00:06:03] How it's representative of people on the Internet who struggle with their faith.

Guest 5 [00:06:09] I mean, just even talking to people on the street or whatever, it's just always kind of. Do you really have an accurate cross section of what's going on. Yeah, that's the art, I guess, of doing that kind of stuff.

John Dehlin [00:06:24] Tough.

Guest [00:06:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:26] Survey research is difficult.

Guest [00:06:28] Yeah.

Guest 5 [00:06:28] Yeah. Yeah. So what else you've been up to? We haven't really talked for a while. I just like, say, saw that in the paper that you. And then the emails that you sent that you were going to talk to Elder Jensen still, same kind of stuff or new things or bring me up to date, I guess.

John Dehlin [00:06:53] Like what kind of. What things, like, do you want to know about?

Guest 5 [00:07:00] Oh, I don't know. I just want to. You're not doing any more studies or papers or anything for anybody. I mean, it's just. You're just pursuing your research and your degrees and working Mormon stories and the other things that you got going. That's just basically what you mean.

John Dehlin [00:07:19] Well, I'm doing. I'm doing my dissertation on reparative therapy and same sex attraction and trying to

Guest 5 [00:07:25] help understand reparative therapy.

Guest [00:07:29] Boy, you're gonna have to even define that one.

John Dehlin [00:07:32] Reparative therapy is when someone tries the. To go to a therapist to change their sexual orientation.

Guest [00:07:40] I was not aware that that was

Guest 5 [00:07:42] the term that was used.

John Dehlin [00:07:43] Okay. It can also be called conversion therapy, but those are the two most common terms and all, you know, the psychologists, social workers, marriage and family therapists, psychiatrists, medical doctors, they've all denounced reparative therapy because it often leads to. It doesn't work. And because it often leads to suicidality and more mental illness. So it's viewed as unethical. But highly religious organizations, because same sex attraction just isn't in the program, often still encourage it. BYU doesn't do it anymore. They used to, but they stopped. BYU used to actually do electroshock therapy. I think we talked about that. Where they would like electrocute your genitals and show you pornography to try and use basic conditioning to try and change you. But that just again, makes people crazy. So anyway, since Evergreen is still doing this or encouraging it, we're doing a study. We surveyed 1635 Mormons with same sex attraction, asked if they've engaged in reparative therapy, and then asked them whether it was damaging or not or helpful so that we can let people know what the chances are of being damaged versus being cured or fixed. So that's.

Guest [00:09:30] How did you find that statistic? Because that's confidentially. I mean, Evergreen's not going to tell you who they're counseling or no counselor is going to tell you. I mean, that's common. So how do you get the information to get, once again, that random sample.

John Dehlin [00:09:47] We don't have a random sample.

Guest 5 [00:09:49] So you just those that.

John Dehlin [00:09:51] Well, we have a semi random sample. So what happened with our survey was the Associated Press wrote an article about our study and it went out in about 250 newspapers across the world. And about three, about 30% of our participants found the study through a newspaper, which isn't purely random, but it's a pretty good.

Guest [00:10:13] Mm.

John Dehlin [00:10:13] It's a pretty good way to draw a pretty good random sample. So around 4 or 500 of our participants found it that way. The others, we went to all the support groups for people, Mormons of same sex attraction, and then through Facebook and email and blogs.

Guest 5 [00:10:33] So it's not non denominational.

John Dehlin [00:10:35] Oh, it's LDS only.

Guest 5 [00:10:36] Just lds only.

John Dehlin [00:10:40] Former lds. So that's my dissertation.

Guest 5 [00:10:44] It sounds like you've got some work done already or are you right in the middle of it then? Sometimes those are hard things to close and know when you're going to be done.

John Dehlin [00:10:54] I have a couple years to go up on that.

Guest 5 [00:10:56] Yeah.

Guest [00:10:56] Yeah.

Guest 5 [00:10:58] Been my experience anyway. Yeah. First of all, it's defining what you want to do and then figuring it out.

Guest [00:11:06] And

Guest 5 [00:11:09] usually you thrash around.

John Dehlin [00:11:12] So we're making good progress. But I have three to four more years to go on my dissertation, so

Guest 5 [00:11:17] it'll be a while. Yeah. Well, good. I asked Bishop to come join me tonight. He told me that you were wanting to baptize your son. I want to talk to you a little bit about that. So I thought it'd be good to have him here since he's been in the midst of it. And it's one of the things I want to talk to you about. So I remember from our visits kind of where you were at and the issues that you're dealing with personally. I think you call it your journey of faith or whatever.

Guest [00:12:02] But

Guest 5 [00:12:04] I guess I just want to know why you want to baptize your son. Kind of knowing where you're at, why your thought reason is there. Why do you want to do that?

Guest [00:12:22] Well,

John Dehlin [00:12:26] first reason is because he wants to get baptized. Second reason is he wants me to baptize him.

Guest 5 [00:12:33] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:12:34] Third reason is we're supportive of him getting baptized. And fourth reason is it's a nice thing to be a part of our son's baptism.

Guest 5 [00:12:52] Yeah, all good reasons. I guess the reason I ask that is just knowing your struggles and where you're at.

John Dehlin [00:13:00] And

Guest 5 [00:13:04] I just wondered if it kind of makes sense for you to even want to embrace something like that. So I Just wanted to know where

John Dehlin [00:13:13] you were coming from.

Guest 5 [00:13:14] That and I should also say the other. A while ago, I just poking around on the Internet

John Dehlin [00:13:25] and I put your

Guest 5 [00:13:26] name in and second page on Google. There was, I think, a recent

Guest [00:13:34] interview

Guest 5 [00:13:34] you did, I think back in January. Who is John de Lynn? So I listened to it and because I kind of want to know too. I've talked with you, but I kind of. And I really liked the page. Eric had different shades. Had your cap and gown, you know, and different shades of colors. So anyway, so I listened to it and I just. I don't know, I just came away from that. Just wondering why you wanted to even have any dealings at all with the church or why you would seek. I mean, it almost seems like a mockery to where you're at. I mean, if you don't believe in God or Christ or atonement or church, then why would you want to be involved? I mean, it's almost like you're saying you're this person, when in reality over here, you're saying, no, I'm not. I don't really believe any of that or don't embrace. I embrace the culture. I embrace the. So that's why I say it almost seems like a mockery to me. I just. Anyway, help me understand.

John Dehlin [00:14:57] I try and use precise language and I change. You know, it's kind of an up and down kind of thing for me. I would be surprised if I said I don't believe in God. I would be surprised if I said I don't believe in the Savior.

Guest 5 [00:15:15] Well, you left it so open. I mean, you said the probability is very low that it even exists. You said it's absurd to say that God exists, but it's absurd to say that he doesn't exist. You know, and I guess I was just thinking I could almost take anybody off the street no matter what they believed. And if they would pay their tithing and keep few commandments, I could have them do about anything in the gospel, no matter what they believed. So am I saying that right?

Guest [00:15:55] Or

Guest 5 [00:15:57] where are you at? I mean, with. I mean, you're not totally dismissing God, but you're not totally embracing him either.

John Dehlin [00:16:08] Yeah, for me, that's what faith is. Faith is to not have a knowledge, but to hope. That's how I read the scriptures. So I hope there's a God. I consider myself a believer in God. I just don't have. I just don't totally understand all the details.

Guest 5 [00:16:43] Mm. Well, yeah. I mean, none of us. None of us do. I mean, that's That's a fair statement.

John Dehlin [00:16:50] But you won't find anywhere where I said, I don't believe in God, and you won't find anywhere.

Guest 5 [00:16:55] But it's so loose. I mean, it can embrace almost any definition.

John Dehlin [00:17:01] There's a place in the Doctrine and Covenants that says that people are given different gifts, and it says that some are given the gifts to believe or have knowledge, and that others aren't.

Guest [00:17:13] It doesn't say that they're not. The second half of that verse is that. And others are given to believe on their words that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful. So there's a lot in that scripture that said, but it doesn't say others aren't given that opportunity.

Guest 5 [00:17:32] But you're right.

John Dehlin [00:17:33] I think that's implied, though. I think it's implied that if some are given it, that others aren't.

Guest [00:17:38] Well, maybe not in the abundance, but I.

John Dehlin [00:17:41] Well, that's. Your interpretation. Doesn't say that.

Guest [00:17:45] Well, it certainly doesn't say they're not given.

John Dehlin [00:17:46] It's implied some are given the gift and some are not given the gift.

Guest 5 [00:17:54] Yeah, well, I know people who just have that gift of belief since they're small and others have to really dig in and work for it when it comes. It's a gift from the Holy Ghost.

John Dehlin [00:18:11] Well, I'm working hard.

Guest 5 [00:18:15] What are you doing? How are you trying to. I mean, in that interview, you basically said, no, I'm really not into going to church. I only really go because kids. It just seemed like you were distancing yourself so far away from these people.

John Dehlin [00:18:34] It's because I feel distant in many ways. There's nothing that's changed since I've talked to you. The last time you told me I

Guest 5 [00:18:40] could baptize Winston, and I don't remember talking to you about baptizing yourself.

John Dehlin [00:18:45] Yeah, we met.

Guest 5 [00:18:47] I don't remember talking about that. I remember talking about Temple Recommend, but I don't remember talking about that.

John Dehlin [00:18:53] No, we did.

Guest 5 [00:18:54] I'm pretty sure I could have not. I mean, I could be wrong, but I just don't remember.

John Dehlin [00:19:00] Yeah, yeah, we did talk about it.

Guest 5 [00:19:03] Okay, well. And what did I say?

John Dehlin [00:19:10] I don't want to. I mean, we talked about Bishop Stevenson and I don't want to.

Guest [00:19:15] No, but I'd be happy. Do you want me to?

Guest 5 [00:19:19] Well. So you've talked with Bishop Stevenson anyway? Well, I just. I don't know. I just. As I. As I would listen to that, and I just. I just struggle. I just.

Guest [00:19:33] Why?

Guest 5 [00:19:36] It's almost like, why would he want to do this.

Guest [00:19:39] Why?

Guest 5 [00:19:40] It's almost like it's a mockery, almost, if that's really how he believes. So anyway, I'm struggling with that.

John Dehlin [00:19:51] So if someone's struggling in their faith, they shouldn't. So if a boy is struggling in his faith, he shouldn't pass the sacrament? If a member is struggling in their faith, they shouldn't teach primary. If a member is struggling in their faith, they shouldn't baptize. You know, missionaries struggle in their faith all the time and they're still baptized. Happens all the time.

Guest 5 [00:20:11] Sure. But I think the difference is you say you're trying to work on a. You know, I agree there's individuals who struggle with that, but they're trying, with good effort to. I mean, I've left the door open to come meet with me. You haven't talked. I was hoping.

John Dehlin [00:20:31] I've met with you five or six times in the past year.

Guest 5 [00:20:33] Oh, I don't know. I don't remember that many times.

John Dehlin [00:20:36] That many times? Yeah. In the past 12 months.

Guest 5 [00:20:39] I only remember a couple of times. Maybe three. We've talked, we've had some communications go back for.

John Dehlin [00:20:47] This would be the fifth time.

Guest 5 [00:20:48] Okay, that's probably right. Probably right. No, I don't think it means that. That in that regard, but it. I don't know, just to feel that I don't embrace any of that. I don't. I mean, I can read to the words. I transcribed them down here, wrote them down so I could. I could have them.

John Dehlin [00:21:11] Okay.

Guest 5 [00:21:13] I mean, Do you believe in God? My view on God is I go. I got to the point that I didn't know if there was a God.

John Dehlin [00:21:27] I know what I said.

Guest 5 [00:21:28] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:21:29] So, I mean, what is it? Are you. What are you reading these to me for?

Guest 5 [00:21:34] Well, I just. I mean, you're saying you don't believe in God.

Guest [00:21:38] Okay.

Guest 5 [00:21:38] You don't. You don't embrace. You don't know if God's real. You don't know. He's not done real.

John Dehlin [00:21:45] I didn't say real. Is the word real in there?

Guest 5 [00:21:50] That's why I thought I would read it, then get it right. So you know what you're saying here instead of me just trying to remember

John Dehlin [00:21:56] here, but do you want to ask me what I believe? Well, yeah.

Guest 5 [00:21:59] Well, I. I have here what you. You said that you believe, and. But it seems. It seems more moved. I mean, we. We talked about some of this. These kind of things, but not to this point. Not to this point where you're actually saying, you know, I Don't believe in the atonement. I don't embrace the atonement. I don't believe in sin. I don't believe in. You know, I follow Christ with the teachings that I think are okay, but there are others I don't embrace. I just. It just seems like you're moving further away. Am I going? I don't know. Help me out.

Personal Beliefs About God and the Afterlife

John Dehlin [00:22:44] I consider myself a believer in God. I don't know what that means, but I have a hope that there's a God and that there's an afterlife. And I'm living as if that's true. That is my belief in God.

Guest 5 [00:23:02] Do you accept him as our Eternal Father? Are we his children? Sure.

John Dehlin [00:23:08] I mean, I. Yeah. I don't know what that means, but.

Guest [00:23:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:12] Depends on how literally you take that. But, yeah, if God exists, then we're his creation. And so you can call that his children.

Guest 5 [00:23:23] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:23:24] Yeah. It's faith. I don't know that he exists. I do not know. I hope that he exists.

Guest 5 [00:23:34] Faith to me has some knowledge associated with, you know, I have experiences that's basis of my faith. I would say what you're describing is more belief. You know, you're saying you haven't had any real experience. I believe.

John Dehlin [00:23:51] I believe in God.

Guest [00:23:53] Okay.

Guest 5 [00:23:55] Okay. And what about Christ? What about.

John Dehlin [00:23:59] I just want you to know the answer is the exact same as what I told you and what I've told you before. But I'm happy to say it again. I absolutely believe in Jesus's teachings. I don't know. I don't have a knowledge of anything. But the idea that we can become resurrected and live again, I think that would be fabulous. And I hope that's true. And so I think that would be wonderful. And I'm doing my best to follow his teachings and live his example. I don't believe. I don't believe I ever said. I don't believe in sin. I believe that people make bad choices that hurt people. And I live my life to try and not make bad choices and not to hurt people.

Guest 5 [00:24:55] Yeah, you alluded to something. The evil was, I live the word of wisdom.

John Dehlin [00:25:01] I live the law of chastity. I try and be honest in my dealings with my fellow men. I try and be a good father to your husband.

Guest 5 [00:25:11] And as far as the church goes, you talk a lot about, you know, which is really correct. You know, that there's good and inspiration found in myriad of peoples and groups and religions and so forth. I mean, that's doctrine that we embrace in the gospel, that God inspires the light of Christ is in all things and so forth. But you equate the Joseph Smith and the Restoration just as one of the others. You know, nothing unique, nothing different.

John Dehlin [00:25:49] It's hard when you put words in my mouth. The Restoration is obviously unique.

Guest 5 [00:25:54] I can read you what you said.

John Dehlin [00:25:55] I did not say that it's not unique because there's nothing like the lds.

Guest 5 [00:26:00] Oh, that's true. I shouldn't have used that word.

Guest [00:26:03] You're right.

John Dehlin [00:26:03] But I am absolutely opposed to judging other religions. I think that's judgmental. I think it's unchristlike.

Guest 5 [00:26:12] What do you mean, Judge? Judge.

John Dehlin [00:26:13] To say we're better than them, to say that they're inferior, to say that they're.

Guest 5 [00:26:20] So you think there's multiple paths that a person can go, A myriad of different paths that God is. I mean, I've talked with people that believe this type of thing.

John Dehlin [00:26:32] 99.95 of the world's population will never get baptized Mormon while they're alive.

Guest 5 [00:26:38] Right.

John Dehlin [00:26:39] So clearly there's lots of paths.

Guest 5 [00:26:41] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:26:42] How it all gets worked out on the other end, I don't know.

Guest 5 [00:26:48] Yeah, well, you know, I certainly don't

John Dehlin [00:26:51] deny that there's divinity in the Restoration. If God exists, then I'm absolutely believing that if he worked anywhere, he worked through the Restoration. So I would never deny that the Restoration was an inspired thing. And I've told you this.

Guest [00:27:15] Right.

Guest 5 [00:27:15] And that's basically what you say.

Guest [00:27:17] But.

Guest 5 [00:27:19] So it's not. I mean, we're not claiming that we're better than others. We just claim that the Lord has given us all of his truth to enable us to return back. I mean, that's the only claim that we have.

John Dehlin [00:27:32] I wasn't criticizing anybody. I was just telling you what I'm comfortable doing and not doing. I'm not comfortable judging other religions or other people's religious journeys. I wasn't accusing anyone.

Guest 5 [00:27:46] So if you had a say, your son wanted to get baptized or embrace another religion, that'd be okay with you, too?

John Dehlin [00:27:55] Well, he has free agency.

Guest 5 [00:27:57] Sure, sure.

John Dehlin [00:27:59] I would never encourage him to do that. I wouldn't personally want him to do

Guest 5 [00:28:02] that,

John Dehlin [00:28:05] but I'm not gonna, like, forbid him.

Guest 5 [00:28:07] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:28:08] That's what he choose.

Guest 5 [00:28:15] I guess my feeling is if you really don't think there's anything really divine about it, then

John Dehlin [00:28:26] you keep putting words in my mouth. That's not what I said. I just said that I do believe that there's divinity in the restoration. That's what I just said.

Guest 5 [00:28:37] Yeah, right. But I mean, as far as if you don't flee, believe it's the one and only true church on the earth that embraces all truths. And why, if you're accepting it just as with all the others? See, that's a basic tenet of the gospel that we claim that we embrace that. That's why the restoration, that's why it happened. That's not another path, but the path. And yeah, the gospel is that eventually all will have the opportunity to hear all of those truths and accept them. And you're right, they're probably not going to happen on this side, but it will happen. Well, I mean, that's our doctrine.

John Dehlin [00:29:37] I don't deny that it's the path. I'm open to it being the path. And I'm choosing this path for me and my family. I'm supporting my children in their desire to follow the path and the one and only true church thing to the exclusion of other things. I just don't like using those words. It's hurtful to me. I'm not denying it. I'm just saying it's uncomfortable for me to frame things in a way that feels judgmental of other people. It feels unchristlike to me to say your baptisms are illegitimate, your beliefs are wrong. I'm just. I'd rather focus on what I believe and let other people believe what they want to believe and let the Lord be the judge. That's all I'm saying.

Guest [00:30:40] You say it sounds unchristlike, yet Christ in the New Testament did that himself. He talked about the scribes and Christians.

John Dehlin [00:30:47] He can judge. I'm not gonna. He can judge all he wants to. I'm not gonna judge him for judging.

Guest 5 [00:30:54] And we have his words in the Scripture saying this is the only true living church. So.

John Dehlin [00:31:04] I'm not denying it. And I'm clearly choosing this path and raising my kids in it. I could have chose to leave and they. I didn't. The things I don't understand.

Guest 5 [00:31:21] And I think one of the things that amazed me from that interview was just you're in a tough spot. I mean, I didn't realize how those who've left the church don't like. I don't want to say don't like you, but they're confused by you as well. And you've had a lot of guess interaction with them that hasn't been positive in many ways. So that was interesting to me.

John Dehlin [00:31:48] I'm hated by anti moment.

Guest 5 [00:32:00] Are you trying to embrace this universalist idea and sort of be an appeal to all, wherever they may be? Is that just. Is that you, or is that just so you can reach out to more people or what?

John Dehlin [00:32:17] I don't totally understand your question.

Guest 5 [00:32:19] Well, the universal is to accept, you know, anybody's belief and where they're at.

Guest [00:32:23] And

Guest 5 [00:32:26] there's quite a bit of discussion in there on, you know, trying to appeal to people at different. Different backgrounds or wherever they may be coming from. And you're trying to have prayer and hymns and so forth in some of your meetings so that the people who have been involved with the church feel some comfort, some familiarity, and yet you're not trying to be so like the church that others who aren't as involved, you know, find us different. I mean, and this idea of everyone letting everyone believe what they want to believe.

Guest [00:33:06] I mean,

Guest 5 [00:33:09] so that's really you. I mean, that's so.

John Dehlin [00:33:13] First of all, my family and my entire family had gone inactive. I chose to bring them back. I led them back to activity. We pray and we sing hymns and we read the scriptures in our home by choice. I support my kids going to seminary. I support my kids coming to church actively. We pray and sing hymns when we meet because it helps us feel the Spirit, and it helps invite the Spirit into what we do. And everybody who comes to those meetings, including members of state high councils and bishops and bishopric members, all say that they feel the spirit when we meet because we try and hold meetings that are conducive to the Spirit. That's why we hold. That's why we do prayer and hymns. What are we trying to do in those meetings? A couple things. There are people who have left the church altogether that have no association with Mormonism whatsoever and no spirituality whatsoever. And we feel like it's a good thing to provide them with some if they aren't getting any. We don't claim any authority. We don't claim any doctrine, we don't claim any theology. We explicitly state we're not a church, we're not trying to be a church. But we do try and hold uplifting meetings that will help people feel uplifted and nourished. So that's a big part of it. And then there's just issues and struggles that people are having that they can't talk to their bishop about, they can't talk to their stake president about, they can't talk to their parents or spouse about, and they've got nowhere to go, or they feel like they have nowhere to go. And we try and give them a place to be able to meet other people and talk about the things that they're struggling with so that they can work through their issues and find more joy and happiness.

Guest 5 [00:35:39] Do you see it. Do you see it being broader than just with lds, those that are struggling with the LDS faith?

John Dehlin [00:35:46] So it's just. I'm tired of these conferences. I don't even know how long they'll continue.

Guest 5 [00:35:53] I can imagine traveling around.

John Dehlin [00:35:56] We don't make money off of them. They usually. We hold them at a loss and they're really tiring and I'm away from my family. But they meant a lot to the people who've been involved. And we're trying to do our part to leave the 99 and go after the 1. That scripture is at the core of what we're doing. Scriptures say it's not meet that we be commanded in all things. And Christ made it pretty clear that you leave the 99 and go after the 1. And that's what we're trying to do.

Guest 5 [00:36:32] So what can I do? How can I help you with your faith, with establishing faith, I guess, and moving from belief to faith to. How can I. I mean, part of it, as I heard you describe this, I just. I felt a lot of sorrow, really, because of your struggle and just wishing that you had a firmer foundation to embrace God and to not just base it on probability or whatever. How can I help you with the Savior? How can I help you with the atonement? I mean, you're right, some of these things seem very confusing. But what can I do to strengthen you and help you in your search? And I'm grateful for what you're saying, that you're still trying, you're still working, you're still. I don't know. I just came away from the tone, from this, that maybe you were totally given up, you know, totally just happy where you're at, kind of kind of there with some social interactions with these people.

John Dehlin [00:37:54] I'm happy where I am. I told you this. I told you both that I would if I could, if I could find, if I could get help working through the things that I'm struggling with and. And if I could feel comfortable at church, I would love nothing more than a return in full fellowship. But usually most of my issues are around questions.

Guest 5 [00:38:23] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:38:24] And usually when I try and talk to priesthood leaders about questions, they don't really listen. They don't really know the issues. They're not very informed and they don't really thoughtfully consider. They kind of just have reactionary responses that aren't really well considered. And they're kind of preachy and lecture but they don't show a real grasp of the questions that I have. And so they come off kind of. The answers often come off as either demeaning or belittling or kind of disrespectful. And that is discouraging. It makes me feel less understood, more judged and less welcome. So the best thing either you can do for me would be to become aware or maybe you are aware and I don't understand it, but to talk to me about the issues, to not just give a knee jerk reaction, but to really listen and think through it and enter into a dialogue where we can talk about the tough issues and maybe you can help me see things I don't see or understand things that I don't understand. I'd be thrilled to do that.

Core Doctrine Questions and Church History

Guest 5 [00:39:52] So there's the issues I know that you've been dealing with and so forth. There's also I'm concerned about is just this need to strengthen you on the core doctrine teachings of the gospel. I mean, the fact that is there really a God? Is there really a Savior?

John Dehlin [00:40:13] The issues are directly related to all these things. They're directly related to the core doctrine of the church. They're not tangential.

Guest 5 [00:40:22] I mean, I know individuals who long before they embraced the gospel unquestionably knew the existence of God and unquestionably knew the existence of Christ.

John Dehlin [00:40:37] For me, they're all wound together.

Guest [00:40:43] See, I see that as somewhat self inflicted because you have focused on these things instead of focusing on the core doctrine. I don't know or claim to know or understand everything but once, but if I can know that Jesus Christ and God the Father appeared to Joseph Smith, that knowledge and that testimony spills all the way across. Instead of worrying about all the, the frailties, the things that Joseph Smith did that weren't perfect, or all the other things that, the mistakes that members of the church made. If I can come back and say, okay, this is what God set up and I know that's true, then it just makes the rest of these things easier first off. And then one at a time I can pick them off and understand.

Guest 5 [00:41:30] That's according to President Hinckley. That's where it is. He defines first vision is the hinge everything else turns on. He says if you really did see God the Father and Jesus Christ and all the other falls into place. If he didn't, then all the rest is false.

Guest [00:41:49] See, and that's my concern for you is you have dealt so much on these peripheral issues.

John Dehlin [00:41:55] Can I respond to that? Sure. You haven't talked with me enough to. To even know where I've dwelt. You haven't even really entered into a conversation to try and understand. We've had a few. You've always assumed that I've. That it's about Joseph's character or about mistakes people have made. I've told you numerous times, that's not what this is about. I understand there's no problem with people making mistakes and with the frailties. And I'm just saying that. I would love you to spend some time. I mean, I've read the Church Handbook of Instructions and what it says bishops and state presidents should do, and it says they should listen a lot more than they talk. I don't think that's how our exchanges have been. I think that you'll ask a quick question, you'll ask a question, I'll give a quick answer, and then I hear kind of a mini lecture. Then you ask a little question, I'll give a little answer, and then I get a lecture. And that's kind of what's happened. It hasn't been a real dialogue. And I'm just saying you're going to have to. If you really care, if you really want to understand, and if you really want to help, you're going to have to spend some time, listen.

Guest 5 [00:43:18] And the offer's there for me. The offer's there for me.

Guest [00:43:21] I mean.

Guest 5 [00:43:22] I mean, I was hoping that we could do some of that. And I'm not going to run from these other issues. I just want to, you know, embrace all of it and look at it all. Your analogy of the church, or like the Concorde jet, you know, that has a failure every time. Thousands, flight. I guess that's one way to look at it. My thinking is back to this rose, this beautiful rose that has all these thorns. And, you know, whenever I read or look at a gardening book, it focuses on the rose, the beauty of this rose and how, you know, they don't say anything about the thorns, even though they're there. And I think oftentimes that's what happens within the church. We're focused on the good, beautiful things of the gospel, and, you know, we're not just because we don't mention these others or talk about them. Some people don't want to talk about them, some people don't know what's involved there. But I don't want to just focus on the thorns either, without looking at the roses as well. I think we've got to. And you've been particularly sensitive with the thorns, with the Issues with the things that are out there. I just hope. I just hope that you're accepting of the rose and paying attention to that as well. So I would welcome dialogue as we can kind of work the whole thing, I guess, is what I'm saying. Fair enough.

John Dehlin [00:44:58] I mean, I have always loved the church. I've always loved attending church. I've always loved the people at church. I've always loved many of the teachings of the church. I think it started when I had my crisis of faith while I was a seminary teacher. And it was a really devastating experience. And if you haven't been through it, you really don't understand it. And there was no one to help. And you get to the point where you're almost suicidal. And in fact, some people become suicidal. And so that was just my journey, and that was fine. But then when I started, you know, when people kind of found me, they started coming to me and talking about the pain they were experiencing, how their wife would leave me and take the kids or they would. They were in major depression or suicidal or whatever, Eating disorders, cutting. Whatever it is because of the pain they were experiencing. Not able to talk to their spouse or their bishop or whoever. And my. My heart is. I'll go back to the analogy of leave the 99 and go after the 1 I'm not. You don't. You don't find me running around the ward trying to encourage people to lose their faith. I don't even talk to members of the ward about religion because I want to be sensitive to people's faith. I'll be surprised if someone's come to you saying, john's trying to lead me out or John's talking to me.

Guest 5 [00:46:33] I mean, I haven't had any reports of that.

John Dehlin [00:46:38] I don't know that I'm perfect, but I'm certainly not. So it's not like I'm trying to tear the church down or destroy the beauty in it. I'm focusing my temporal efforts on administering to those who are suffering. It's a really hard place to be.

Guest 5 [00:46:56] Well, yeah, because some of that came out of this interview.

John Dehlin [00:47:05] So. Thorns and rose. I appreciate that analogy. I don't. I don't. I value that analogy. Leaving the 99 and going after the 1 is kind of the analogy I like better.

Guest 5 [00:47:21] Well, for what you're doing. For what you're doing. Yeah.

Guest [00:47:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:24] But you can't help these people unless you get. And you can look at something you've never said to me.

Guest [00:47:32] Really.

John Dehlin [00:47:32] Maybe. I don't know. Either of you is like I fully understand what you're struggling with. This is difficult. These issues are legitimate and they're difficult. And I understand. And I don't judge you. And I can see why you're struggling. That's something I don't think either of you have ever gotten to the place where you could actually say that. And you have to get to that place. It's like they say with the Savior, he descended below them all. He. He suffered everything that we would suffer.

Guest 5 [00:48:06] Now you have your answer for the atonement when you say you don't understand.

John Dehlin [00:48:09] Okay, okay.

Guest 5 [00:48:10] See?

John Dehlin [00:48:11] Okay, okay. But do you see my point? That's what it takes to help these people.

Guest 5 [00:48:18] That's why he can say, I understand. I know how to help. Because he has this interval of all. That's why he had suffering, and that's why he had to be perfect. So he knew perfection. He knew how to get people there.

John Dehlin [00:48:36] Yeah, I've had two lunches with the.

Guest 5 [00:48:38] Just a little aside.

John Dehlin [00:48:39] No, I appreciate that. That's when I say I feel like I believe in the Savior or I'm trying to follow his teachings. I mean, you turn that around. I don't know if you were doing that to kind of if that was like aha or gotcha or whatever, but

Guest 5 [00:48:54] I was just impressed for you to say that. I just.

John Dehlin [00:48:58] That's an example of me trying to live what I understand the doctrine of the Gospel to be. You know, there's a reason Elder Holland had lunch with me twice and said to me, I Wish we had 100,000 more John de Linds in the church, where he said, we want you in this tent. And he thanked me for what I was doing. There's a reason why Elder Jensen has reached out to me and asked for help. There's a reason why when the Maxwell Institute was writing a hit piece on me, Elder Jensen intervened in my behalf, along with the president of BYU just a few weeks ago, and asked the Maxwell Institute not to publish the piece that they were writing on me. There's a reason that they came to me and asked for the results of my survey and asked me not to publish the results until they had a chance to present it to the general authorities of the church, which I honored. And I sat on the results of my survey for five months so that we could present to the general authorities of the church. It's because I'm doing work that they see value in, that they are learning from. And it's because they don't quite know how to handle this problem. And they see that We've tried really hard to be a part of the solution, and it's dark and it's dirty work and it's hard. But there's a reason why I have these interactions with them. And I wish you guys saw that, you know.

Guest 5 [00:50:31] Well, I appreciate it a little bit that, you know, you did keep me informed on that. I do appreciate that. And I'm not going to sit here and say that by just meeting with me, I'm going to solve all your problems or issues, I should say I'm going to call them problems. It's the concerns that you have or your struggles with the doctrine or the things that have happened or those thorns are that are there. But, you know, if you were, I think by doing so, I could sense, you know, your sincerity and your desire, you know, to want to try to move and learn and embrace what's there. I mean, my desire would be that, sure. Yeah, completely. But I know they're big issues. I know they're. And I don't pretend to have all the answers either. And some things you might just say, well, I don't know, or I don't know what happened there, but. And part like what the bishop brought up as well, you know, some things I do know, and that sustains me for what I don't know. And that's kind of how you have to be.

Challenging Specific Church Truth Claims

John Dehlin [00:51:48] Can I ask you guys a couple questions? Do I have. Okay. The Doctrine and Covenants says that the earth is 6,000 years old. Okay. Do I have to believe that?

Guest 5 [00:52:00] No.

John Dehlin [00:52:01] Okay, well, so I can disbelieve at least one part of the Scripture.

Guest 5 [00:52:07] Well, well, time. I mean, how do you define time? How do you define a day? How do you define a year?

John Dehlin [00:52:11] So I'm saying it says 6,000 years. I think we know what a year is. We all know what a year is.

Guest 5 [00:52:18] Yeah. According to how we measure it. There's also.

John Dehlin [00:52:20] And that's why it says 6,000. I mean, the idea was that there were seven seals. A thousand years for every seal. We all know what a year is. And that Adam started about 4000 BC and Jesus was 4000 years into the existence of man. And we've come 2000 years since then. 6000 years. It's in the Doctrine and Covenants. Do I have to believe that to baptize my son?

Guest 5 [00:52:49] You don't have to.

John Dehlin [00:52:50] Well, can I believe that the earth is billions of years old and still baptized? My.

Guest [00:52:54] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:52:55] That's different than what's said in the Doctrine and Covenants. Now, you've taken a Liberal interpretation. But I can show you an Ensign article that says it is 6,000 years.

Guest 5 [00:53:06] Years.

John Dehlin [00:53:07] Okay. Do I have to believe?

Guest 5 [00:53:10] See, there's just some things we don't know there. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:53:13] Good.

Guest 5 [00:53:14] There's just some things we don't know.

John Dehlin [00:53:16] Good. That's all I'm saying to you today. Today, there are things I don't know, and there's more, and they sometimes conflict with scripture. Polygamy. Do I have to believe what most of the prophets said, that polygamy is a requirement to be in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom, that you can't be in the highest degree of the social kingdom, kingdom without practicing polygamy. Do I have to believe that?

Guest 5 [00:53:49] No, that's not. That's not official doctrine.

John Dehlin [00:53:52] It's taught by prophets, revelators. I'm not trying. I'm just.

Guest 5 [00:53:58] But the Book of Mormon also says that they're perfectly acceptable not living polygamy either, so.

John Dehlin [00:54:05] Yeah. Yeah. So I'm just trying to help you

Guest 5 [00:54:08] see, all truth has to agree. I mean, the problem is sometimes we take this scripture and we stand on it and say, this is how it is, and then we take this one over here and everything has to agree. It has to fit together.

John Dehlin [00:54:23] I'm only bringing these things up as two small examples of. The types of things that are important to me. I think whether Adam and Eve really existed is pretty important. Right. I think whether the flood and Noah, whether that really happened is pretty important. Do I have to believe that knowing that there's enough species of beetles alone to sink the ark, do I have to believe. Do I have to believe that Noah got every existing animal in existence onto that ark and the food to feed them for 40 days? Do I have to believe that?

Guest [00:55:14] No.

John Dehlin [00:55:14] To be.

Guest 5 [00:55:15] I mean, we don't know how that was done. We know what was said in the scriptures.

John Dehlin [00:55:23] So all I'm saying is what I think you're saying, which is that there are things I don't understand, and they're hard, and I think they're important. I think whether or not Adam and Eve really existed, whether or not Noah's the flood is just a fable or really true. I think those are important things.

Guest 5 [00:55:41] So that's why there are key things, and then there's things that we just don't know.

John Dehlin [00:55:50] Do I have to believe that God turns people's skin dark as a curse?

Guest 5 [00:55:59] That's an interesting question. Well, we know what's said in the Book of Mormon with regard to that,

John Dehlin [00:56:05] but I know apologists for the church who say that when the Book of Mormon says skin, dark skin, I know

Guest 5 [00:56:11] Nible's got a whole different way of dark skin. They don't mean interpreting that.

John Dehlin [00:56:15] They mean it's their aura.

Guest 5 [00:56:17] Yeah. And that I don't know. But this much I do know that the glory of where God is with respect to all of us, we're all pretty dark compared to him.

John Dehlin [00:56:29] I agree with that.

Guest 5 [00:56:30] And so for us to make relative comparisons and the other thing, you know, I think it was as much of the people's problem of why that happened. I mean, the Lord didn't want them to mix with them, so if he made them a little bit different, then they wouldn't mix because they had their prejudices, they weren't embracing. They. You know, that's just my thought, my interpretation. I don't know. I leave those things as. I just don't. I don't have a perfect understanding of what it is.

John Dehlin [00:57:07] That's exactly.

Guest 5 [00:57:07] But I have a perfect understanding that the first vision.

John Dehlin [00:57:11] I don't.

Guest 5 [00:57:13] I know it happened.

John Dehlin [00:57:14] I know it happened because I don't feel fully understand the first vision because there's eight different accounts written by Joseph's hand.

Guest 5 [00:57:23] And I.

John Dehlin [00:57:24] Each one's different.

Guest 5 [00:57:25] And I understand that, too.

John Dehlin [00:57:27] And so I'm not going to say nothing happened. I'm not going to say it was a lie, but I'm going to say, which version do you believe in? And they were all by his account.

Guest 5 [00:57:37] Right, right. And some people said they've progressed over the years. You know, first of all, he. He didn't even really say he saw God. You know, he had this vision and then he didn't even say that there were two of them until later on.

John Dehlin [00:57:49] And this is all from him.

Guest 5 [00:57:51] Right.

John Dehlin [00:57:52] And I'm not saying he's lying.

Guest 5 [00:57:54] Right.

John Dehlin [00:57:54] I'm just saying I'm a little.

Guest 5 [00:57:58] And I remember a sister in the mission field that was devastated over that.

John Dehlin [00:58:01] I'm not devastated. She's still hanging in there.

Guest 5 [00:58:04] That she was in the mission president's office and he was trying to reconcile it all. And I think sacred things have to be treated very carefully. In fact, the first time the church even knew, had a testimony that Joseph Smith had even seen Christ wasn't until the 76 section of doctrine and Covenants.

John Dehlin [00:58:26] Yeah, no, I know.

Guest 5 [00:58:28] So these things, I mean, the first

John Dehlin [00:58:32] vision is pretty important.

Guest 5 [00:58:33] And so, you know, we talk about

John Dehlin [00:58:34] it like it's just one thing, but it's not.

Guest 5 [00:58:36] It's a story. I know it happens.

John Dehlin [00:58:39] I know it happens.

Guest 5 [00:58:41] I've had that witness to Me of the Spirit.

John Dehlin [00:58:43] I have faith.

Guest 5 [00:58:45] You want to believe that it happened.

John Dehlin [00:58:50] I am willing to say that I believe that something divine happened there, but I don't know what. And that the fruits of the gospel and the restoration show that God is behind this endeavor. And that's why I'm willing to raise my family in it and to try and hang on and be a part of it.

Guest 5 [00:59:07] Yeah, I guess. And that's a good point, because from this you get the impression you're just there for the social part of it. That's why you keep hanging on. And to maybe be in a place where you can help others struggling.

John Dehlin [00:59:23] But you know what.

Guest 5 [00:59:25] But what you're saying is broader than that.

John Dehlin [00:59:27] Just like you're not going to take one of Joseph Smith's account of his first vision and pin that on him. Because if you stuck with the first one, you wouldn't get the one that we have now. There actually wouldn't be God and Jesus. Right, Right, right. There would just be the Lord. We don't know who that is, God or Jesus. Right. There's lots of things that I've shared and expressed and that represents one story, one day, one set of questions,

Guest [01:00:03] might

John Dehlin [01:00:03] have even been a bad day.

Guest 5 [01:00:05] So what do you tell people that someone approaches you and they're struggling with their faith? What do you tell them? What's your. They're probably obviously interested in where you're at and how you reconcile. I mean, that's what I understand a lot of these are. People share stories and experiences and their support for one another. I mean, I believe you when you say that you're who you are. I mean, you don't try to. You have some sense of integrity about you. I believe that are you, are you. And I can understand why. Not everything comes out in one thing. I mean, certainly this is a different setting here than this was. But is that a concern, I mean, to you? I mean, people may. I mean, you're a very elegant man as far as talking with people and friendly and so forth. How is that a concern to you at all? Where you were at and your journey and how it's affecting you may. How does it affect others, I guess, is really what I'm trying to ask.

John Dehlin [01:01:21] I can give you probably hundreds, if not thousands of people who will tell you that the work we've tried to do has helped keep them in the church, that they would have left a long time ago without it. I tell people, I told people is as recently as this weekend in Colorado, you're crazy to leave this church if you can find a way to make it work. I tell people that regularly. There's no benefit to leaving this church if you can make it work. And I don't believe I've ever told someone that they should leave the church, ever.

Guest 5 [01:02:03] And I don't have any. Anything. Just tell me that you have. I mean, I just.

John Dehlin [01:02:08] And I've told a ton of people. I started a website that I still own and operate called Stale ds. And the whole purpose of it is to give people a way to stay when they thought there was no way. And the other podcast that I own and sponsor called Mormon Matters, which you guys probably haven't heard, the entire purpose of that podcast is to help people stay in the church. Mormon Matters and patriarchs. Richard Bushman came on it just the other day. Several BYU professors come on it regularly. And the entire purpose of Mormon Matters is to help people stay in the church. And it's really popular. And I started it about a year ago. I went to my friend Dan Witherspoon, and I said, dan, we need a podcast for people who want to stay in the church. Will you start it up?

Guest 5 [01:03:11] Are most of these people. Are some of them still going to church? And are some of them totally not going? Is there a mix of people? There's no. Who. Who.

John Dehlin [01:03:22] The person that runs Mormon Matters for me is a temple. Recommend holding active, committed.

Guest 5 [01:03:28] No, I mean these ones that you interact with, the ones that you go around and have meetings that come to you.

John Dehlin [01:03:32] Most are members of the church.

Guest 5 [01:03:35] Are they still trying to go, or some of them. I can just probably see a broad mixture.

John Dehlin [01:03:41] There's a broad spectrum, but it's at least half active in the church, probably more.

Guest [01:03:49] Mm.

Guest 5 [01:03:53] Okay. Well, I. Thank you, but I don't know. Just. I think it concerns me that. And I know it's a hard thing, like you say, having things out there, but it concerns me where you're at. I wanted to know where you were at, if you were, because some of these. Some of these things that you talked about seem a little, like I say, a little more distance than what I mean. We did explore some of these aspects, but you're right. I don't know who you are. I don't know what some of these core things are. I welcome that. I welcome interaction. I would hope that there could be established a trust so that you could feel open to discuss things. And at the same time, you know, I could. I know I'm not going to be able to answer everything that you have, but let me just. Here's the thought I had as we were talking Book of Mormon. I know there's a lot of issues with the Book of Mormon, at least, you know, and I'm not saying that you have all of them, but I know individuals that have issues with the Book of Mormon, and I know that you try to embrace a lot of these issues so that people can know what they are and so forth. I mean, you talk about that, but with all these issues, can you truly read it and open, seeking answers and guidance and direction? I mean, do you get to a point where you totally can't even stand to open it and read from it, or do people get to that point? I've. Since some people do, where are you at with regard knowing the issues that you know?

John Dehlin [01:05:59] And I mean, I have a very warm place in my heart for the Book of Mormon. I read it like nine times by the time I finished my mission. Some of my most spiritual experiences of my life have come from reading the Book of Mormon.

Guest 5 [01:06:19] What about in recent years? What about as you've been joined through

Guest [01:06:23] this

Guest 5 [01:06:26] journey that you been on?

John Dehlin [01:06:30] This is a typical area of quicksand for conversations like this because there's sort of a, you know, there's sort of a. If you don't read the Book of Mormon, you're not going to have faith. But there's also. If you're struggling with things in the Book of Mormon, you might not always read it like you did because.

Guest 5 [01:06:49] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:51] And so.

Guest 5 [01:06:54] Well, that's why I'm asking.

John Dehlin [01:06:56] So an answer that a bishop or a stake president will often give is, read your scriptures and pray. And sometimes that works, and sometimes it doesn't work.

Guest 5 [01:07:05] Well, what I'm saying is, if you came in and visited with me and I opened the Book of Mormon and said, here's this doctrine, this teaching on the atonement, let's look at it. I mean, would you be able to. To look at it in the light of, or would you just totally, you know. Yes, I know people who just get to the point, they just don't even

John Dehlin [01:07:25] want to look that way. I'm not that way at all.

Guest [01:07:28] No.

John Dehlin [01:07:29] I have warm feelings in my heart for the Book of Mormon, but. There are problems with the Book of Mormon that are pretty significant, and they're legitimate, and they strike at the very core of its legitimacy. And they're not making them up, and they're not side issues. They're some of the most central issues in the whole restoration.

Guest 5 [01:08:02] Okay. But then on the other hand, there's some amazing doctrines and teachings that are found there. So, you know, how do you reconcile the two?

John Dehlin [01:08:10] That's right, yeah. And it's hard. And I don't feel like. I don't feel like I've thrown it away.

Guest 5 [01:08:18] Okay. That's what I want. Basically I wanted to ask is, no,

John Dehlin [01:08:21] I've not thrown it away. And I still read it sometimes. But I would love to talk to you guys about those issues. Not for any other reason than that. I want to hear, hear whether you agree that they're significant, whether you've thought about them and whether they seem as challenging to you as they do to me. Or maybe you have ways to work through them. But that's one of the hardest right now. The hardest thing for me is the Book of Mormon.

Guest 5 [01:08:51] This is the Book of Mormon right now.

John Dehlin [01:08:52] Okay.

Guest 5 [01:08:53] Yeah. All right.

John Dehlin [01:08:56] I'm not saying that I've thrown it away. I'm just saying that. Okay, well, I guess struggling with whether it's historicity is the word I use, whether it's inspired but not a trans, you know, so the Book of Abraham, right? They uncovered the papyra that Joseph claimed were the source of his translation. Egyptologists have translated. It has nothing to do with Abraham. The church, even Elder Holland has admitted this right. On television. So people no longer claim that the Book of Abraham is a translation. What they now claim, and this is believers, is that somehow the papyru were there, but God channeled the Book of Abraham to Joseph, but it was not.

Guest 5 [01:09:51] That's almost like how Moses came about,

John Dehlin [01:09:56] but not as a translation, right? Was the Book of Mormon created the same way?

Guest 5 [01:10:04] Well, I think if you try to look at it as strictly a history book or archaeology or whatever, it's going to have issues is for sure.

John Dehlin [01:10:12] Okay.

Guest 5 [01:10:15] And yeah, but these are all things, you know, we can talk about. But I guess my hope was, is if, as I know, people who would totally reject the book more wouldn't even crack it open or if they did read it, they were reading it, you know, with the wrong intent, trying to disprove it or trying to. And they couldn't. They didn't even see the rose. They didn't even see the. Or what's there if, if you can't.

John Dehlin [01:10:43] I don't love the violence of the Book of Mormon.

Guest 5 [01:10:46] My grandmother, my 101 year old grandmother, she says she skips those chapters and

John Dehlin [01:10:52] I don't understand Isaiah, but there's, you know, King Benjamin's sermon and Stephan Alma, stuff about faith, stuff in Third Nephi, some of the stuff in the Very beginning of Second Nephi. Some stuff in First Nephi.

Guest 5 [01:11:08] Love that. I'm reading the wars right now. And yeah, I understand where they're coming

John Dehlin [01:11:18] from, but some of the letters written by the generals to each other, you know, those are still special to me with the courage and, you know, even Ammon, I mean, that's a great. I don't love the chopping off the arms, but I love the idea of his courage, you know, so that stuff never leaves. You know, it never leaves, you know

Guest 5 [01:11:42] that you were talking about the atonement and the doctrines. There's some pretty powerful ones there that might. I guess what my point is, if you are going. If there is any hope that we can work through some of these things, if you totally reject it, I won't even crack open that book, then it's going to be tough. It's going to be tough, you know, to try to.

John Dehlin [01:12:07] I will never reject God or Jesus or the Restoration or the Book of Mormon ever. And I will always be open to any of those things. To further light, knowledge. A fool. It's a fool who closes their heart and mind to further light and truth. Okay, that's how I feel.

Guest 5 [01:12:30] Good, good, good.

John Dehlin [01:12:35] But I don't think God gave us a brain to shut it off. I think he gave us a brain to use it and to synthesize it with spiritual understanding. But I don't think you can just shut up the brain and believe. And I don't think you can just shut off belief and live on knowledge or science or fact. I think they have to be harmonized. If I could come to church and talk openly about these things without disturbing people, I would love to. Love to. I've told you this several times. I would love to. What I find is that people can say what they want to say if it's sort of the generally accepted narrative, right? Even if it's false. You know, like they'll call. They'll call Latin Americans Lamanites, even though we. Even though the church doesn't do that anymore because we know that 99% of the DNA comes from Asia, so they can't be Lamanites, right? So if someone in church says, oh, the layman, you know, I was in Latin America and I just love those Lamanite people, right? Well, that's okay. They can say that, right? Even though it's not doctrine. But what I don't feel comfortable is saying it's kind of dangerous to call them Lamanites because there's the DNA thing, because, you know, that's Kind of. Because what happens when I do that? People get offended. They feel like I'm a troublemaker, even though I think I'm on the side of the brother on this one. And so I don't know how to. I can go and just sit there, but if I just sit there, I feel like I'm a second class citizen. It's like sit in the back of the bus and don't talk about. And so I don't know how to engage constructively where I don't end up feeling like I've spoiled everybody's day because I don't want to go ruin people's faith. But I want to be able to have an exchange. And that's the reason why I don't come to Sunday school and elder school. If you could create a little Sunday school, we're like in the spirit of faith, people could have an open dialogue.

Guest [01:15:08] Sure.

John Dehlin [01:15:08] I would love that. I would come. You would see my attendance skyrocket. I would,

Guest [01:15:16] I would.

John Dehlin [01:15:20] I might even teach it.

Guest 5 [01:15:23] I wish I had the power or way of making something like that happen.

Guest [01:15:28] Yeah.

Guest 5 [01:15:31] We have so much momentum, you know, with the church as it has been and is. And it's just like you say, it's hard to change anything like that. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:15:43] And I don't sit around saying all those people at church are lame. I'm just like, I wish I could be with them.

Guest 5 [01:15:48] I don't know how.

John Dehlin [01:15:50] I don't judge the brethren for introducing all these issues because they're problems. So.

Guest 5 [01:16:01] And you know, and I see God not answering everything or having everything perfect just so that we will have to have faith because he wants us to develop it. If we had all the answers, if we had everything figured out, there would be no reason to develop faith. Faith is, is such a hard thing to define, but it's a stronger, more empowering thing than just mere knowledge.

John Dehlin [01:16:38] What were you saying?

Guest [01:16:40] Oh, I had several things on my mind, but I didn't want to stop the dialogue.

Guest 5 [01:16:44] Go ahead.

Guest [01:16:49] Well, I just feel that there are. When you talk about feeling the spirit and strengthening your faith and stuff. I do believe that coming to church would be a benefit. And it is something that the first time we visited a long time ago that I told you needed to do. And to my knowledge, I've only seen you in sacrament once since that time. Last time we visited you said it was more and I might have missed some, but I just. You really. I think, I think that would benefit you. And as I look at the things that would benefit you and Help you with what's been called your journey or

Guest 5 [01:17:27] your struggles or whatever.

Guest [01:17:33] I still come back to that focus, and I'm not going to be able to articulate this very well, but I almost want to make it like the analogy of someone that's trying to do good things, like someone that sits and edits film so that it cleans it up for family viewing. You can sit and look at the trash and cut and snip, but eventually it just wears you down. And I feel like you are getting worn down because you are dealing with all of this stuff out here instead and never getting back to the core, the where the faith ought to be, that you're always out there and it's because you're trying to do good things. But at some point, man, you got to quit trying to save the world and save your family and yourself and come back. And that's what I've. And I don't know if I made that very clear, but that's my concern for you.

John Dehlin [01:18:28] I think you have the spirit of discernment because I am worn down and I'm not happy with where I am.

Guest 5 [01:18:40] But I don't believe that you're going

Guest [01:18:41] to get where you want to be by being out there. And I understand that you have to work through some of those issues that are a concern for you and stuff, but if you could come back and focus on those again, the core ones, and then whittle off those others, I just think that's better than trying to get back by whittling down everything around instead of circling the wagons until you're kind of in there. If you come back in and start building out, I just think that would be a much stronger way to build your faith and to get you where you want to be.

John Dehlin [01:19:19] I want to come back. I want to come to church more.

Guest 5 [01:19:27] You say it's. It's hard to have meaningful dialogue, but sincerely, if we were able to establish something on a regular basis where we could discuss these issues, the doctrines of the church, the whole thing, the whole. And see what we could do, try to circle, move you back in with focus. I like that in some regard. I guess that's my fear too. Would that help? How would we do that?

John Dehlin [01:20:02] I always leave these meetings feeling.

Guest 5 [01:20:07] Well,

John Dehlin [01:20:10] the last couple meetings that we've had, I didn't feel super great. But before those meetings and all the meetings I've had with you, I've always left feeling motivated for sure. It's always been helpful because it feels like. It's nice to feel like Somebody cares, and it's nice to feel. It's nice to have you guys reach out. That means a lot. So, yeah, it's helpful. If I haven't taken you up on that offer, it's because I've seen these issues take people clear out of the church.

Bishop Expresses Care for a Struggling Member

Guest 5 [01:20:48] Are you fearful for me? I guess if you were to come drop all the hay on me,

Guest [01:20:57] not

John Dehlin [01:20:57] out of any assessment of your character or strength or. Not strength, just out of a general desire to not disrupt people or disturb them.

Guest 5 [01:21:09] You don't want to.

John Dehlin [01:21:10] I'm not saying. Cohab, state president. You knew what I knew. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that when I first met a Bishop farmer, I said, bishop Farmer, I'm struggling with a lot of issues. Do you want to talk about him? And he said, I'd rather not. It's like, you know, if it's all the same, I'd rather not. It wasn't mean. He was loving, but I just. He didn't want to get into it. And I think there's wisdom in that for someone who just doesn't want to go there. And so I just. I really try and be respectful.

Guest [01:21:47] Okay.

Guest 5 [01:21:48] Well, I'm saying. I guess I do care. I do. I did sorrow over how this came across as somebody who's just almost given up, you know, with no thought that, you know, that they're totally just here and they can't ever.

John Dehlin [01:22:12] That was a dark time. And there are ups and downs, and that was a dark time. And it's a. It's an antagonistic kind of forum, and that probably influenced me some.

Guest [01:22:29] Mm.

Guest 5 [01:22:31] But, you know, I would. I would have you tell. I know you're busy. I know you got things to do. I will try to arrange my schedule. But if. If there was. If you want to. Weekly, monthly. I mean, I'm willing to meet you at. However. And no, we won't take the whole load of hay at once. We'll work. If we want to start with the Book of Mormon, if we want to. We want to start with. If you have issues with God and Christ. I mean, those sort of seem the central one. And you're right. They kind of intertwine. But I don't know. I mean, I sorrow when I hear that 70, 80% of the people can't get answers from their leaders. They just don't feel like they can even approach them or have discussions, you know, And I sorrow. And so is that right? No, I mean, is that what Christ would do? Would he kind of shun them? You know? No, I don't. I try to follow Christ as well. And I feel like I need to reach out to all and do what I can. And I know I'm only who I am. And I'm willing to impart to you what I have in the hopes that maybe that will can strengthen and help you with your journey and if it can move you back closer to faith and conviction of our Heavenly Father and our Savior and of this work and what it's all about and, and help you to maybe work through some of these other issues. I mean, sure, if that can be positive, then I'm willing to attempt it and to go through it.

John Dehlin [01:24:32] I think the other hesitancy I've always had is that I see how much time you guys give and how much time you're away from your family. And it pains me to think that you would have to take that much time for one person.

Guest 5 [01:24:45] Well, I'm doing it for others right now in various aspects. And I'm meeting regular with individuals on a myriad of issues and concerns. And that attempt, I mean, that's what it's all about. And I remember when I first got called as a bishop, my boss, who had served in the kind of callings for many times, he says, I don't know how it works, but he says, you'll have the time to do this calling. He says, God is not a servant to time. He gets done what he wants done when he needs to get it done, and you'll have that blessing. He says he was kind of laughing because one of the associate directors of the department was serving as a bishop at that time. And he was getting near the end of his release and he was going around saying, oh, I'm going to have all this time to do this and do that and all these plans, says, you wait and see, he won't have time to do anything. And sure enough, several months later, he was going around, I just can't seem to get anything done after he was released. So I know it's real. I've felt that in my life, if the Lord needs me to make time for somebody, it'll happen and my family won't suffer. I don't know how. I can't explain it. It's an amazing, amazing thing. So don't. And other people say the same thing. You're not the first one. But I'm willing to do that, more than happy to do that and to dig in and to try to find, address these things, not just give the tried or trivial type answers. And I recognize you as a sharp individual. You probably know what all these. The arguments are for many of these different things. I mean, you've obviously even, like with Mormon stories, you've talked to a lot of different people, different backgrounds, different things. So I remember I was teaching a Seventh Day Adventist minister in my mission, and he was really sincere.

Guest [01:26:55] He was.

Guest 5 [01:26:55] He was really sincere about wanting to know about what the church was about. He just wasn't trying to poke at us or something. He really wanted to know. And he read and studied the Book of Mormon. And I know we would come to different teachings and we would open up the Bible and we'd read something, then we'd read something out of the Book of Mormon, and it was just amazing. He says, I always wondered what that meant in the Bible. And this gives so much more insight on it. Anyway, he was just really wanting to learn. And of course, knowing he was Seventh Day Adventist, there's always the issue about worshiping on Sunday or on Saturday. And he says, well, we're going to have to talk about that one of these times, but let's talk about these other things. So he wanted to learn. So meanwhile, we're in the background boning up, you know, we're reading everything we can, you know, about that. So we're getting prepared because we knew it was coming. Well, the day finally came and so we're giving all these arguments. I already know that one. I already know this one. No, that doesn't. You're no different than the rest of the Protestant churches wanting to. Or Christian churches wanting to worship on Sunday. You haven't told me anything. I don't have told me anything. I don't know already. And finally I remember, I just got. I don't know, I don't call it desperate, but I was just running out of things to say and I just finally said, well, you know, we testify that we have a prophet of God, prophet, Joseph Smith's prophet of God, and the Lord told him to worship on Sunday. He hit the table and said, that's the answer. He says, either you have a prophet or you don't. And if you have a prophet, then sure, he could tell you to worship on Monday or Tuesday or whatever day of the week he wants you to worship on. He says, nobody else can make that claim. So it comes down to that. So, yeah, I know there's probably many things that you probably already know and understand, and I may be able to say something or point you in a direction that may make a difference. I don't know. I'M hopeful. I'm hopeful that I might, but I welcome that. I open myself up to whatever to help you at your terms, whatever will work best for you. And. And I want you to know I'm very sincere about that.

John Dehlin [01:29:41] Thank you.

Guest 5 [01:29:44] And, you know, I appreciate when you let me know about things just because I am interested and so do you have an email?

Guest [01:30:01] Do I. Yes. I don't check it quite as regularly as I probably ought to. I'll give you the one that I. That I do check because it's the work one, but I can't always respond

Guest 5 [01:30:17] fast to that one.

Guest [01:30:18] So it's either one I don't look at or one I can't always respond to, but.

Guest 5 [01:30:21] So I only have one. I'm glad they let me mix everything.

Guest [01:30:25] Oh, they'll let me mix everything. I mean, I can get the emails. I just can't take the time off.

Guest 5 [01:30:29] Yeah, I understand.

Guest [01:30:31] So Sometimes I get 25 minutes for lunch and that's when I do the personal stuff on the emails, if I can. In fact, I emailed you today.

Guest 5 [01:30:40] Yeah, you did. I'm not always as responsive as I ought to be either. I mean, I can't imagine what you'd try to do, John, with everything you have coming at you from various sources. I can't imagine you trying to keep up with him.

Guest [01:30:56] I.

John Dehlin [01:30:59] I would love to meet the. You know, when my brother asked me if I wanted to meet with Elder Holland, I almost said no, because I'm not. The last thing I was interested in doing is, like, pulling out 10 really hard questions and trying to, like, catch Elder Holland or like, you know, stump him or. Or even really expect him.

Guest [01:31:21] Jim Stevenson@csdut.org that's Cache County School District.

John Dehlin [01:31:29] It took me a long time to figure out what would I ask Elder Holland if I could have a lunch with him. And what I realized is the biggest questions I have. I'm not going to, like, try and want to talk about all these really hard, controversial things. It's more, what do I do with the knowledge that I have that I think is credible that impacts a traditional belief in Mormonism, like the Flood or the age of the Earth, but ones that are central, like the Book of Mormon, what do I do with those things? And how. What do I have to believe or not believe to be considered legitimate? Those are the questions that I'll have. It's like these things I don't understand. So if I believe in this way, is that unacceptable? That's really what any conversation we have will be About?

Guest 5 [01:32:34] Well, what about if I ask you what you believe or feel about this to just kind of help seed it and go along, you know? What about? Well, yeah, we could talk Book of Mormon, we could talk Christ, we could talk the atonement, we could talk some of these. And I come at you with, you know, you don't necessarily have to supply everything to me and maybe something I bring up is something that really is important. Maybe it's not as big and important, I don't know. But at least, I mean, it could

John Dehlin [01:33:11] be sort of as you like.

Guest 5 [01:33:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:33:13] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I would love that.

Guest 5 [01:33:18] You know, I was looking the other day, you know, this book preach my gospel. All the missionaries have. But in it, it has the. I can't remember where it's in the baptismal questions. And you're kind of wondering, well, where am I at? You know, these are the basics. These are what if a person were to join the church? This might be a good measuring stick where you're at.

John Dehlin [01:33:50] So.

Guest 5 [01:33:50] Do you believe that God is our Eternal Father? And we've talked a little bit about it tonight. Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God, the Savior and redeemer of the world? Do you believe the church and gospel of Jesus Christ have been restored to the prophet Joseph Smith? Do you believe that current church president is prophet of God? What does this mean to you? What does it mean to repent? Do you feel that you've repented of your past transgressions? Some of these are more pertinent then it was. Have you ever committed a serious crime? Are you probation or parole? Have you ever participated in abortion, homosexual relationship? Have you been taught membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints includes the living gospel standards? Do you understand and follow standards? Are you willing to obey them? Law of chastity prohibits sexual relations outside the bond of legal marriage between a man and woman. Law of tithing, the word of wisdom, Sabbath day, including partaking of the weekly sacrament weekly and rendering service fellow members. And when you're baptized, you covenant with God. You're willing to take upon yourself the name of Christ. Keep his commandments throughout your life. Are you ready to make this covenant and strive to be faithful to it? I don't know if you were interviewing for be Baptized, where would you stand on those? I mean, would you even be. I don't know if I ever interviewed anybody for baptism that. I guess people had maybe different reasons for becoming. I know some of them weren't exactly where I wanted them to be, you know, they were. Because I had a girlfriend that said, you know, and so forth. But I know that's kind of a measuring stick right there. Just the basics. Fundamental. Get you in the gate, gets you on the path. So how do you think you do with us?

John Dehlin [01:36:07] Well, I guess that's what our discussions would be about.

Guest [01:36:09] Yeah.

Guest 5 [01:36:10] Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Well, that and other things, too. Other things, too. But that's the fundamental of the course. Especially those first questions, I think, are the key ones. Because if you really didn't have any. If you were just joining the church for social reasons or for. Because the rest of your friends are, or whatever, I mean, you're gonna have problems down the road if that's why you're.

John Dehlin [01:36:42] Yeah, I don't think that I'm staying a member because of the friends in the wall.

Guest 5 [01:36:47] Sound like you got more friends in some of these other groups.

John Dehlin [01:36:50] But the truth is, I'm very much. I don't want to say ostracized, but, like, I don't hang out with people

Guest 5 [01:36:58] in the Lord, not because I don't

John Dehlin [01:36:59] love them, just because there's a distance there. Maybe partly of my creating, maybe partly of theirs.

Guest 5 [01:37:05] I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:37:07] So I'm not here for something.

Guest 5 [01:37:09] I wish we could somehow break those walls down, and I wish we could really break walls down to others, too, because there are a lot of good people out there, and they do have truth.

John Dehlin [01:37:21] Well, I'm not claiming people mistreated me. People have always been nice.

Guest 5 [01:37:25] Well.

John Dehlin [01:37:27] But I'm a little scared.

Guest 5 [01:37:29] Would you seriously consider us having some kind of interaction and consider how it would work. Frequency. I mean, it doesn't have to be on a fixed time, because a fixed day, because I know schedules are tough that way. But if we could just. I think that would. At least. I don't know, maybe you should think, well, maybe I would feel good. My sincere desire would be that maybe I could be some help to you.

John Dehlin [01:37:58] Let's do it. I appreciate it. I don't take that lightly.

Guest 5 [01:38:02] Okay. And as far as, you know, this baptism goes, and I'm still going to. I still want to be prayerful about all this, but I appreciate this dialogue because, you know, if somebody really is not really wanting to have anything to do with the church, but yet wanting to do things, I mean, that seems kind of contradictory.

John Dehlin [01:38:29] So

Guest 5 [01:38:33] I'm grateful for the things that you shared, and I know you have a lot of. There are people that are tuned in that are listening and so forth,

Guest [01:38:46] and

Guest 5 [01:38:47] I know words and being represented equally the right way, all Places, all times is truly difficult.

John Dehlin [01:38:53] But

Guest 5 [01:38:55] you're in a tough position where you're at. And I recognize that. I don't understand it like you say completely because, you know, I haven't had this necessity go through that on my own. But let me tell you a little insight here. We alluded to this a little bit. I've had times when I've had somebody sitting across from me and they've experienced something or had, you know, I've never been raped before. I've never gone through some of these things. And how do you emphasize. How do you understand where they're coming from? But he understands because of that atonement. And there are times that I know I have been given insights and understanding as to what that person is experiencing and I know where they come from. So I may not truly understand because I haven't experienced what you have. But I know he understands all because anything imperfect, not just what we consider sin, sometimes we use that word just in the wrong way. But anything imperfect about us, he understands because of what he went through. And it was a personal thing. He saw each and every one of us. I don't know how, I don't know how that works. I don't understand that. But I know that because I know he knows me and he knows me better than I know myself. And he knows. And I've seen him work and interact with others and I've been given inspiration and understanding and been able to help. So I know that to be true. So that's what I've got eye on and that's what I will rely on. That's the only way it's going to work. That's the only way I have hope. If I'm just trying to do this as a man, then I'm going to fail. At the same time, I know he's not. He doesn't micromanage us. We're not puppets. He doesn't pull all the strings he leaves us to. And he provides here a little and there a little and sometimes we don't have answers. I accept that. Okay, so would you consider that and let me know, Shoot me an email or something and say, you know, I've thought about this and no, you don't have to come into your top 10 if you just bring one in or if you don't bring anything in, I might have a question for you. Say, John, where are you at here? What's the issues here? And let's talk about, about this aspect.

John Dehlin [01:41:44] Okay, I'll do it.

Guest 5 [01:41:47] Anything you want to Add Bishop.

Guest [01:41:49] No. Just want you to know I do appreciate you and what you said tonight. And I. I too, would be happy to visit with you. I'm possibly someplace between Bishop Farmer and President Jensen where I'd like. I've. I need to be here. I'll go out and investigate, but I don't want to stay out here on all of the. So you can pick one, we can go do it, and then let's come back here and then we can go get another. But. Come back here, and then we can

Guest 5 [01:42:19] go get another but I just don't

Guest [01:42:20] want to be out there all the time.

Guest 5 [01:42:23] But I respect that. Okay. Well, I appreciate the Bishop being here because we. I want to make sure we do the right things for you.

John Dehlin [01:42:36] I appreciate it. Thanks for coming.

Guest 5 [01:42:39] So, any. Anything else that you want to tell or you didn't get a chance to. Or something that just before we part here.

John Dehlin [01:42:52] Well, I feel a really good spirit. I feel really grateful for your time and your. Just hard to reach out. I'm not the kind of guy that. Wants to feel like he needs help, you know, like I'm not. There's some people who, like, seem to want to always have attention and help, and I'm not that guy. But I'm not happy where I am spiritually. And I do feel worn down.

Guest 5 [01:43:38] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:43:40] And I do miss the fellowship.

Guest 5 [01:43:45] And

John Dehlin [01:43:47] I would love to find a way to come back.

Guest 5 [01:43:54] Oh, you're very welcome. We want you. And I'll do all that I can to help you. Thank you, John.

Guest [01:44:10] Okay.

Guest 5 [01:44:10] Well, thanks for taking some time. There's probably a lot hundred others that

John Dehlin [01:44:14] you could be doing.

Guest [01:44:15] Whoa.

John Dehlin [01:44:16] Yeah.

Guest [01:44:17] Thanks.

John Dehlin [01:44:18] Sorry it took so long.

Guest 5 [01:44:19] That's okay. Good things. All right.

John Dehlin [01:44:23] All right. Thanks.

Guest 5 [01:44:24] Say hi to your wife.

John Dehlin [01:44:25] I will.

Third Meeting Opens with Personal Conversation

Part 3 of 6 · Ep. 1266

Guest 6 [00:00:00] Come on in. How are you? Good. How are you? Good, good. Things are busy, but, yeah, that's not necessarily a bad thing either. So, yeah, there's all kinds of things going on, which is pretty typical just in life in general. Let's start with the prayer, if it's okay, if you're all right on the inside. Our Father in Heaven, as we come before you this afternoon. We are grateful for the blessings which we have received. We are grateful for those things which Thou has given us. We are grateful for the opportunities and the blessings which we have been provided. Grateful for the blessings of the church and the things which it affords us, for the blessings that it provides our families, atonement of our saints for the gift of the Holy Ghost and the ability and assistance it provides. And ask thee to bless us that we will fill with thy presence and know of thy will and be able to freely and openly discuss the things which we should discuss. Again, we are grateful for the many blessings which we have. We say these things in Jesus Christ. Thanks for coming to see me.

John Dehlin [00:01:29] My pleasure.

Guest 6 [00:01:32] I guess there's just a couple things I wanted to review with you and kind of get an understanding as to where things were. Where things are. What's going on with John de La. Okay. And I previse that a little bit. I know when I was called as bishop, you were meeting very regularly with President Jensen and had been for quite some time. You know, I had a nice visit with you and your wife for one day and didn't really reach out a lot because I knew you'd been meeting with President Jensen. But I guess, honestly, John, in. I think it was November, Winston poked and prodded and, you know, said, dad, why don't you go bear your testimony? And you stood up and you bore your testimony. And I was concerned with the lack of the important testimony of things which are meaningful, important. But there weren't some of the core things of the gospel, which, as I understand some of your conversations with President Jensen, some things that maybe are. I don't want to say a struggle, but there have been some interesting thought processes and discussions and so on and so forth there. And I'm not familiar with any of the particulars associated with those things, but as I listened to you share your testimony, I just felt that it would be good to visit with you a little bit and talk about where you are, what's going on. And then with Titus, I don't want things being so busy in November and December. It's now the end of January. Just getting around to that. So I guess where are you with your testimony? Where's John de Len's, you know, comfort level place? How do you feel you fit in with the church?

Sharing Personal Testimony and Beliefs

John Dehlin [00:03:16] Well, I guess. I guess there's things that I know and things that I. Believe, and then there's things that I hope for. And if we're talking about belief and the stuff that I know is around, like, I think somewhere in the scriptures it says if you have not charity, you are nothing. So I think, I think charity is Christ, like love, service. I think that's. That's at the center of my testimony.

Guest 6 [00:04:05] And.

John Dehlin [00:04:10] I think everything else kind of pales in comparison to that. I believe in faith and repentance and. The law of chastity, Word of wisdom, Sabbath day. You know, I believe in most of the commandments, pretty much all of them. I can't think of a commandment I don't believe in really. So those are important parts of my belief and behavior. Emphasis on family is super important. And then, you know, I think the thing I always, you know, I just don't. I think people. I think people in the church have different comfort levels with being able to say I know or knowledge. And I think anything, any material claim, you know, any claim that has to do with an actual someone who's dead or historical stuff or that stuff's just stuff that I used to. Was really important to me. It used to be really important to me finding out what was true and not. And it got really confusing for me, you know, So I guess I've lowered the importance of that kind of stuff. For me, it's. And that's where I think the hope, you know, believe or hope comes in. Like, I don't know for sure that there's a God, but I believe there is. You know, I don't know for sure that there's an afterlife, but I hope there is. And I don't know for sure that, you know, Jesus was resurrected, and I don't know that for sure, but I, you know, I hope it's true, but I. I'm going to live the gospel as I understand it, as if those things are all true. And I won't feel bad or cheated if they turn out not to be true. I think I will have lived a happier life. And if they turn out to be true, that's even better. And that's how I understand faith is. And I don't sit in judgment of those who characterize their beliefs in terms of knowledge. I don't, like, think in my mind they're lying or wrong or deceiving people. It could be that they're just using the word no for what I say belief. It could be they've got something I don't. It's not like I haven't tried to know. I feel like I've tried really, really hard. So I just have to. I have to be at peace with what I've been given and live according to the most central things. I have no problem believing that Joseph Smith received inspiration and no problem believing that the leaders of the church have the keys to lead the church. So I don't have any problems with that aspect of the restoration. So there's no. There's no problems for me. I don't. I don't see any big. I don't have any. Like, there's nothing that I'm, like, angry at the church about or like,

Guest 6 [00:08:17] you

John Dehlin [00:08:17] know, so I think I'm aware that that may come across as weak or feeble to a lot of people. Sometimes I console myself by saying, you know, there are people who. I think Christ said that, you know, blessed are those who know, but, you know, maybe even more blessed are those who don't know but still do their best to follow. I hope that that offering is ultimately going to be found acceptable, that I don't have a knowledge of things, but I'm still willing to try and live a good life. There's my summary.

Guest 6 [00:09:03] I appreciate that. I know from. Discussions from many years ago when I was the Elders Quorum president and you were an Elders Quorum instructor, there were some, I don't want to say questions as to testimony, but there were some things that were maybe a little bit difficult for me to teach about with regards to, say, Joseph Smith and some of those things, because there was a. I'm not an eloquent speaker. I'm not an eloquent thinker. I bumble my way through a lot of these things, so.

John Dehlin [00:09:34] Me too.

Guest 6 [00:09:36] Forgive me with that. But Elder Holland last April, I very much appreciated his talk on testimony. When he talks about having a desire to believe and a true desire is important and very first step. I've perceived and understood, as I've listened to you in a couple of different settings, that the wholesomeness of the church, what the church provides as far as family or things that are very important to you, you see a lot of good that comes from that, if you will. Maybe the fruits of the church are things which are meaningful and important because there's things that you identify with that are meaningful as far as raising a Family as far as being good people and so on and so forth. And so, you know, I approach appreciated what Elder Holland said as he talks about a 14 year old boy who recently, as I quote, recently said Brother Holland, I can't say yet that I know the church is true, but I believe it is. I hung up going to a ice bowl now. I told him my soul that belief is a precious word even more and even a more precious act. He may never apologize for only believing. I quoted Christ as saying, be not afraid, only believe. And I think there's a lot of people that's where they are. It is a belief and hopefully it's the desire to believe and the desire to help that to grow into more. Faith is seeking after something that's not known. There's a certain amount of unknown that's required for faith to really be what it is. And as I stand up as a bishop and bear my testimony and say that I know this to be the case, how much of it's true knowledge have I seen God the Father and Jesus Christ of Joseph Smith? No, I haven't. Have I seen and felt the influence of the Holy Ghost? And enough things happen in a way that help me to say that I can know? Yes, that's very much where I find myself. As I may have doubts or start to struggle, I come back to those situations where I can feel them and know them presence and know I was guided such that it helps me to understand that there's a heavenly Father who is a real and tangible person who can help me. So there are definitely different levels that are associated with what different people identify as a testimony. As a young child stands up and says that I know this in his mind where he is is that different than an adult that stands up and says the same thing or a teenager does, or one of the apostles who stands behind the Pope and says there's varying different levels that are associated with what I think you and I would full term to be knowledge, if you will.

John Dehlin [00:12:36] So.

Guest 6 [00:12:44] Understanding a little bit more which that's beneficial, that's helpful. I will tell you that I'm also concerned John, with some of the online presence is there and some of the things that you propose and say to the world in general as you will and some of those comments with regards to who the church is, what the church is and what the Church's policies and processes are. Again I do not know at what level or what length you visited and talked about some policies with President Jensen. There's some things there that are things you've written or things you've interviewed which are of a concern to me because they lead in my opinion, sometimes to more questions and more doubt than to seeking for truth.

John Dehlin [00:13:39] Are these things you've collected or that other people have given you?

Guest 6 [00:13:42] Well, there are some things that I have looked at on Mormon stories or on some of the other websites and things from some Facebook posts. I will tell you I am not actively on the Internet all the time looking and following. There are some snippets of things that others have forwarded to me. There are some things that I identified and read and looked at as myself on my own as well.

John Dehlin [00:14:04] Stake President.

Guest 6 [00:14:06] No, President Jensen and I talked briefly on a few things, but he, I think he did forward me one link shortly after I was called to bishop to things. But I do know from talking to President Jensen there were some things that were very positive that you posted as well as some of the things that I do think lead people to question what they really, truly think is important to them, if you will. I know. Questions. I believe, again, trying to be careful with words that you find that the things that you post there can be very beneficial to people. I think you find, I guess I shouldn't say what's your motive? What's the intent? What are you hoping to accomplish with

John Dehlin [00:14:57] some of what you put out there online? Do you have any examples?

Guest 6 [00:15:02] Let me see. I am terrible at the specifics and.

John Dehlin [00:15:06] No, it's just. It's just helpful to talk about specifics.

Guest 6 [00:15:10] For instance, there was a. An article I read a short time ago about progressive Mormons, also one that I looked at regarding women in the priesthood and that we'd be a better place if we gave priesthood to women in the church.

John Dehlin [00:15:25] Okay. Okay.

Guest 6 [00:15:32] So.

John Dehlin [00:15:36] What's the motivation behind progressive Mormons?

Guest 6 [00:15:44] So.

John Dehlin [00:15:49] Let's just say that a conservative Mormon might be Bruce Armakanki. Okay. Bruce Armaconki taught that the reason why blacks were black was because they were less value in pre existence. Okay. Taught that the church has since denounced that teaching and said that that. And he himself denounced that teaching and said I was wrong. Right. And obviously the priesthood was ultimately given the blacks. Even though, even though many apostles said it would not ever be given to blacks, it was given to blacks. There are lots of issues that the church was, you know, many of the apostles opposed the civil rights movement. Mr. Ted Benson said it was a communist conspiracy to overthrow the United States while he was an apostle. There were people during the time, members of the church during the 60s that said, no, the Civil rights movement is trying to give freedom and allow blacks to vote. And they disagreed with, they disagreed with the apostles. Sometimes they even got punished for disagreeing, even though 20 or 30 years later they were vindicated because the church ended up denouncing what was taught in the 60s. Right.

Guest 6 [00:17:38] So

John Dehlin [00:17:41] there's a lot of people who are more liberal in the church

Guest 6 [00:17:49] and

John Dehlin [00:17:49] they feel like, what time do you have to go?

Guest 6 [00:17:53] I think I have a home teaching appointment a little after six, I believe. My son has not. No, I'm sorry. 5:15 is what time I'm supposed to be done.

John Dehlin [00:18:07] So there are people who feel like they either have to believe the very conservative, orthodox perspectives.

Guest 6 [00:18:19] Polygamy.

John Dehlin [00:18:21] There are people who say, I can't believe that I'm going to be practicing polygamy in the year after. I just, I don't believe it. They read DNC132 and they say it says that a man can be given 10 virgins. I don't believe that. I don't believe that. That's God's way.

Guest 6 [00:18:38] Right.

John Dehlin [00:18:40] And sometimes people get caught in this position of feeling like you either have to believe the stuff that feels wrong, spiritually wrong to you, or you have to just leave Mormonism altogether. So the purpose behind progressive Mormonism is to say, actually you can be liberal and progressive and still be Mormon. It's an identity. It's not a movement. There's no membership. It's just an attempt to say no. There's conservative Mormons and there's liberal Mormons. And you know that. I know that the, you know, same sex attraction, homosexuality, LGBT kind of issues are a polarizing issue today. If you were to look, 30 years ago, the church was telling people to keep a secret, to go ahead and get married heterosexually even if you're gay, not to tell your spouse. This is what the church leaders did. So thousands of gay and lesbian Mormons went and got married heterosexually. And then those, you know, 80% of those marriages ended in divorce. Awful infidelity, families split apart. Well, guess what? Now the church says that's not the way that you should handle being gay or lesbian.

Guest 6 [00:20:08] Right.

John Dehlin [00:20:09] Church used to have the position that it was a sin to be gay. Now they've changed and now their position is it's not a sin to have same sex attraction. It's just a matter of how you behave. That's a big change. The church used to try and encourage people to change their sexual orientation, to go to a psychotherapist and try and make that go away. They now Say that you shouldn't, that those efforts oftentimes are damaging and that that's not necessarily the way to go. And they're not supporting the groups anymore who encourage that when they used to give them money. So I feel like I'm being led by the spirit in the things that I kind of believe and do. And so that's progressive Mormon. It's just a way to have people not have to abandon their Mormonism and to know that you can be progressive on their own still. What was the second one? Oh, ordained women. So did you know? Did you know that? Did you know that women used to put their hands on people's head to give them blessings of healing? Probably from 1840 into the early 1900s, you can find quotes where Brigham Young actually speaks to the Relief Society and says, chastises the women for not exercising their priesthood, for not laying their hands on head and using their gifts of healing. It's a tradition that Joseph Smith started that Brigham Young carried forward, and that existed in the church for about 100 years. And there's nothing we believe in continuing revelation. Women weren't allowed to pray in General Conference. And just a year ago, for the first time, they were allowed to pray.

Women's Ordination and Ongoing Doubts

Guest 6 [00:22:19] True. Can't say that I do. Can't say I know they weren't allowed to previously. I can say that I haven't remembered seeing one pray.

John Dehlin [00:22:27] Yeah, there's no. As far as I know, there's little to no record of women praying before last year. So ordained women is not saying the church is an apostasy. It's not saying that. It's not even saying we're telling the brethren what they need to do. It's simply saying we think that the church might be better off if someday they pray and receive the revelation that women can share in the priesthood. So it's just a hope, really. But it's not calling the prophet into apostasy. It's not demanding anything. It's just saying, hey, just like all the people that prayed and asked the prophet to pray about blacks in the priesthood, decades, decades of time went by and people were saying, please pray about this. Please reconsider it. Please see if God has continuing guidance. And eventually he did entertain women is the same type of thing. It's just saying, hey, pray about it. So that's. That's the spirit behind it. I'm not mad at the church. I don't. It's just my belief, my hope, really.

Guest 6 [00:23:48] So. And Mr. Bishop, as an individual, I don't have any issue with you Having beliefs that may be different than mine or different than other people's, how that belief may affect other people is where I become concerned. As it talks about in. I think it's Alma. And again, understanding a little bit more. What. What to you is important. What to you is something that you truly believe. If the Book of Mormon isn't something that you truly believe, then it's difficult for me to say in the Book of Mormon. John, I'm reading this and this. The Book of Mormon is concerning to me with what I see. I'm not sure how that, you know, what that means to me.

John Dehlin [00:24:40] I believe there's truth in the Book of Mormon.

Guest 6 [00:24:44] Truth, not necessarily that the entire Book of Mormon is true or the devil is translated by Joseph Smith by the power of God and is God's word.

John Dehlin [00:24:53] You're asking.

Guest 6 [00:24:54] I guess I'm asking. Yeah, I guess I am. Let me ask.

John Dehlin [00:25:09] Yeah, I don't understand how the Book of Mormon came to be, but I'm willing to accept the truths in it. Again, that's where we get to the material stuff.

Guest 6 [00:25:26] Understood.

John Dehlin [00:25:27] And I don't base my testimony on history or material things. So if we can. If you want to talk about a specific truth in the Book of Mormon, that's.

Guest 6 [00:25:37] No, not necessarily. And Isaiah indicates that in this day and age, it's a marvelous work and a wonder, not necessarily a marvelous work as a whole. Wow. It's that it's a work that people will marvel about and wonder about. That God does not intend for this to be clear cut, dried. And I can go back and find historical research that's going to prove everything is what it is. Hence no need for faith. That for those who truly find that truth, seeking inspiration from above is the true answer and the place to go to get that. And that there has to be a level of exertion of faith and of trust to get that we can be led astray, so to speak. And where I am and where I'm concerned is in Alma 5, verses 57 to 60, it says, and now I say unto you all that are desirous to follow the voice of the good shepherd, come ye up from the wicked, and be ye separate, and touch not their unclean things. And behold, their names shall be blotted out. That the names of the wicked shall not be numbered among the names of the righteous, that the word of God may be fulfilled, which saith, the names of the wicked shall not be mingled with the names of my people, but the names of the righteous shall be written in the book of life. And unto them will I grant an inheritance at my right hand. And now, my brethren, what have you to say against this? I say unto you, if ye speak against it, it matters not, for the word of God must be fulfilled. For what shepherd is there among you, having many sheep that will watch over them that wolves in earth mock and devour his flock? And behold the wolf enter his flock, and doth he not drive him out? Yea, and at last, if he can, will he destroy him? And now I say unto you that the good shepherd doth call after you, and if you would hearken unto his voice, he will bring you into his fold. And ye are his sheep. And he that commandeth you that ye suffer no ravenous wolf in among you, that ye may not be destroyed. There's a lot in that many different ways that I can look at that and think about it. I've been asked to be the shepherd

John Dehlin [00:27:47] if there's still a flock.

Guest 6 [00:27:51] And I need to make sure that. Protect this little flock as best as I can. And I reach out to those who I feel may have strayed. I want to know in what ways can I reach out to John and help John? And at the same time, I need to make sure that John. Is John a wolf or is John a sheep? Is John helping the flock and keeping together, or is there an intent or a. An opportunity to deceive and to tear down? I don't know that I know that answer right now, but I know that it's something that, as I've pondered and thought and considered, that I'm concerned about. No criticisms at all about John wondering and questioning what John truly believes, but definitely concerned if in an open and public forum and as that is expressed, that it may cause others to step away or to lose the faith that they may have.

John Dehlin [00:28:53] Does that happen?

Guest 6 [00:28:55] I don't know that I can say that it has. But I'll tell you that it's something that, as I have been thinking about and think about, that I'm concerned about, the church does not. I think my instructions have been fairly clear from the handbook. I'm not a private investigator on an investigative unit. You don't go out and you, you know, try to track things down and follow after things. That's not what my intent would be. I can't say that I have heard for certain from. I've not had a bishop call me and say so and so's left the church. And they attribute it to conversations with Brother Deland. I can't speak to a prior bishop or the prior stake president or any other of those discussions, if you will. All I know is the very short time that I've been here,

John Dehlin [00:29:49] all I can say is my beliefs haven't changed since my. Since my times with President Jensen. And he was fine with my beliefs, and he allowed me to baptize Winston and allowed me to be in full fellowship. There's nothing, there's zero in my beliefs that have changed between now and then. So I'd be confused if he felt inspired to tell me things were okay. And yet you're feeling something different that'd be really confusing.

Guest 6 [00:30:25] I understand that. And it is something that I probably need some more therapy introspection on and a little more seeking for guidance on myself. I can't speak for President Jensen. He's the man who was leading me. And now President King is in that position, and that's who I've gone to, President Jensen and gone to President King a number of times as I'm looking for direction and seeking for help. So I guess I need to do some more research on my side of things. To see where I think we are.

John Dehlin [00:31:17] Okay. Is there a specific. Is there a specific belief or teaching them that is of concern to you?

Guest 6 [00:31:30] I can't, John. I have not researched a tremendous amount. I know that from my discussions with President Allen. You know, he had probably disagreed on a number of different things, and he's visited with me a little bit on some of the things that have been of concern to him. But I myself have not researched into one thing, one way or the other. I know that there was a point in time where you were fairly active and involved in a priesthood meeting, and, you know, that's something where you don't feel like you're real comfortable or maybe even welcome there, if you will, which I find just unfortunate that you wouldn't feel welcome there. And if that's something that others are doing that make it that way, I find that that's unfortunate as well.

John Dehlin [00:32:17] Well, it's. I don't blame anybody. But, yeah, I'd stand that Tyler Bruff kind of not made me feel very

Guest 6 [00:32:26] comfortable

John Dehlin [00:32:29] because they've attacked me for my beliefs and positions and even given lessons where I was there that were very clearly directed right at me in very kind of shaming and embarrassing ways. So, yeah, I don't want to go to elders quorum and be shamed and embarrassed. And I didn't want to cause problems and fight with them and go tattle with a bishop, but they were aggressive towards me. I didn't Come after them, they came after me. It's just not constructive. I'm certainly not going to argue with them during elders quorum. I'm trying to defend myself, and I think that would just be disruptive. So, yeah, that was sad. I really enjoyed that going, but. So I'm not offended, though sometimes that's a stereotype that we put on people. I'm not offended. I still come to soccer meeting, but if I feel like I'm not welcome or respected, then it just doesn't feel constructive for either party for me to go. And it's nothing that I said in elders corner. It's stuff outside of elders corner. It's. It's, you know, so you can, you can initiate a church court against me. You know, you can kick that process off. Let me finish. You can kick that process off. If you want stake president get involved, that's fine. It's your right. It is your privilege. It's your responsibility. Same with the stake president. Is that potentially where you're going with this? Is that in your mind of possibility?

Guest 6 [00:34:41] It's definitely my mind of possibility. It's not that I have an intention and that's where I'm going.

John Dehlin [00:34:47] So in your mind, you're not gathering data for that intent? Okay. Because all I can say is I've met with Elder Holland. I've met with Marlon Jensen, former church historian, member of the first pres. You know, former 70. I've. I've met with a lot of people.

Guest 6 [00:35:14] Right.

John Dehlin [00:35:15] And these feelings that I have and these questions that I have and these doubts that I have, they're not going to go away. Their doubts that any thinking member either has or is going to have. As information becomes more and more

Guest 6 [00:35:37] available,

John Dehlin [00:35:38] you know, I'm not, you know, it would be easy for me to take offense at you reading that scripture, which. Which alleges indirectly that I'm a wolf in. In the flock, I can understand how you might be contemplating that perspective. What I would tell you is that pick any doubt or question that I have, it's a legitimate doubter question. Just like somebody 30 years ago, just like someone a hundred years ago might say to the prophet, I'm not sure this polygamy thing is the right way for the church to go, and it ends up that the church backs away from polygamy. Or just like Joseph Fielding Smith denounces evolution and denies that dinosaurs even lived on the planet and that there was death before the fall, and there were apostles who disagreed with him even then, and someone might have stood up and Said, I think evolution might be true. And I. I think there might have been dinosaurs who walked the earth. And I think you might have been wrong. President Joseph Fielding Smith. History vindicated those people because now the church has no position. And you can absolutely be a BYU biology professor, teach evolution, and be in complete good standing. Right. And so it may be that I take positions as an informed person on issues that seem scary to you or even counter to the church's teachings. But I'll just tell you, there are thousands and thousands and thousands of people like me. And if you. And if you go after and remove people like me from the church, or if you send them messages to the world that people with doubts like mine aren't welcome here, which to me feels like the opposite of what President Uchtdorf's message was in the last General Conference. Right.

Guest 6 [00:37:53] Then

John Dehlin [00:37:56] that's a significant decision because you're not just kicking me out of the church. There are thousands of other people who are going to say we're not welcome here. They don't want people like me here. And you're impacting generations and generations of people that might otherwise say there's room. And most importantly, they're people whose views in 10 or 20 years very well might be vindicated by changes that the church makes in the future. So I hate feeling like I'm not welcome here. I hate being accused of being a wolf. I'm raising my kids in this church. I'm letting them attend in spite of my doubts, and I'm supporting them in that. I'm doing my best to not be find anyone in this ward, Find me anyone who feels like I have been proselytizing my beliefs to them, trying to sow doubts to them. The stuff that happened with Stanton and Tyler was them coming into my spheres of community. It was not me going to them saying, hey, let me sow a doubt or a fear. And, you know, it just makes me really sad and uncomfortable when as much as I'm trying, as hard as I'm working to make it work while still having integrity for my beliefs, I'm cast as a wolf. So just had to tell you my feelings on that.

Guest 6 [00:39:33] Well, and I appreciate sharing your feelings with me. I appreciate your openness with not taking offense or being able to be offended or so on and so forth. And that perception very much is there. And it's not my intent to offend. It's also not my intent to sidestep an issue if I feel there's an issue. I will tell you that I'm not the one who would initiate a church court. Any Melchizedek priesthood that's initiated on a stake level, there will be some input from me. And there may be a request of me for information, but those things are not necessarily mine. Have a concern, or someone comes to me and says, I've committed a sin, I'm confessing, then that may be the prompting for an initiation, as I understand it from the handbook. I will also tell you, John, I'm not an extremely learned individual. I think I'm fairly bright. But I am not one who recalls information. I'm nowhere near the intellect that you are. I've not been through anywhere near the schooling, and that's not the type of person that I choose to be or want to be, if you will. I have not done nearly the level of research on some of the topics that you have because that's not where I felt prompted or impressed or that I needed to go. Do I understand there's some dirty laundry, if you will, up there with the church? Most definitely I do. Do I understand that we're men here on the earth and we're not perfect? Silver Holland said a year ago April. Most definitely I understand that. I understand I'm not going to make every decision correctly. I'm gonna do the best that I can do based on the information I have and what I feel is the inspiration that I'm given. Where that may lead, I can't tell you. I know that. I can't tell you that there's. I can tell you there's definitely never been anybody who's addicted and said, bishop Hunt, you need to go visit with Brother Glenn, and this isn't right. That's not where this is coming from. Whether you've had discussions with apostles or others in the church or things that I'm not aware of and haven't been privy to, that's not where I am.

John Dehlin [00:41:51] I only tell you that to let you know that I've asked them my questions and they've acknowledged that they're legitimate and the church is now just a tiny bit of history. About five years ago, a former area authority 70, from Sweden lost his testimony in the church. So he'd been in the third quorum of the 70, lost his testimony. He was troubled by a lot of the same issues that I've had. So he arranged for a meeting with Marlon Jensen in New York to try and talk about these issues. And he asked me to prepare a survey to distribute to people who have left the church to understand what the main reasons were for why people are leaving the church. So a survey was administered to over 3,000 people who left the church. And we aggregated together for Marlon Jensen all the reasons why people say they left. President Jensen was so grateful for the information from that survey. Several months later, he asked us to present our findings at church headquarters to the head of ces, to the head of seminary, the church curriculum, to the head of the missionary department, to the head of pr. Two apostles were involved, and they were super grateful for the research that we did. As a result of that and other things, the Church is now starting to publish on its own website official response responses to the top issues that we helped identify. And so I don't know if you've seen over the past six months, but they put out one on the first vision addressing the multiple versions of the first vision. They put out about the translation of the Book of Mormon and Joseph using the stone and the hat is the way that he translated the Book of Mormon. And they put out one on block in the priesthood, where they denounced the teachings of Bruce Armaconki and Brigham Young. And they're slowly starting to come clean on these issues and to publish official responses, and more is going to come. And so I'm just telling you, you can call me a wolf in sheep's clothing, but the Church has been asking me to help them indirectly figure out how to deal with these issues, because Marlon Jensen said while he was at Utah State University that the Church is experiencing its greatest apostasy since the time of Kirtland. And it's not because of me. It's because the historical issues and the scientific issues are fair and reasonable concerns that people have. They're credible concerns. They don't prove the Church is false. But there's significant enough challenges that if the Church doesn't come up with good reasons or explanations for them, it makes people say the Church isn't what it claims to be. So I just give you that information to know that I've been trying to help. I've been trying to be a constructive part of the answer. I appreciate the information, and the questions are scary. So Stanton's scared or Tyler's scared, right? Because it's unsettling. But I didn't make up the questions. I didn't make up the information. I just learned about it and have been trying to talk about it. Because if we don't talk about stuff, then how do we find answers if we don't even know the questions,

Guest 6 [00:46:07] and

John Dehlin [00:46:07] if we don't spend time trying to solve the problems they just become like that gorilla in the basement that nobody wants to talk about. So just wanted to share with you that perspective.

Guest 6 [00:46:22] I appreciate that. Again, by no means is this brain on having a soul John delaner saying, you know, I have issues. I think you're a great individual. I think you got a great family. Do I have some concerns? Yeah, I have some concern. Are my concerns founded? I don't know. I definitely profess to know all the answers and even a lot of the questions, if you will. I know where my faith leads me to believe. I know what actions that I take because of that. I truly believe that I've been asked to sit in this chair for a reason. And there's good that I can do while I'm here. I've seen God's hand in that over just the last six months that I've interacted with and worked with some members of our ward. What that opportunity may bring for you and I in the future, I don't know. It's worth.

Bishop Outlines Concerns About Membership

John Dehlin [00:47:31] Okay, so the purpose of this meeting was for you to express your concerns. And what?

Guest 6 [00:47:38] Well, A, I want to understand more of where you were. B, I wanted to let you know that I am concerned that I'm. I'm not sure what level that concern is or what actions my concern may or may not bring. There's no imminent. This is. I made up my mind. This is what I think and where we are. I need to learn and understand and seek direction from our Heavenly Father as to what I feel like I need to do and how best I move forward. And would tell you that most likely I'm gonna ask you to come and see me again. This isn't just a one time thing because I need to learn as I move forward. What can I go for?

John Dehlin [00:48:30] Any idea when?

Guest 6 [00:48:33] I have no timetable on anything. At some point again, I have no directive. I don't have something when I'm saying this is my goal and where I am. It's a concern I've had for a while. It's taken me a number of months to make things happen such that it would have had, you know, the first minute. And again, I need to seek some counsel for presenting and seek some direction from him as well. I can tell you that the direction I've been giving, everyone I've talked with, they come in with questions or problems. Is that my answer? Is that our answers come from our Heavenly Father. Our answers come from the Spirit. And that's when we seek and look and go for those answers. We can collaborate and we can talk about and we can learn good things, things on our peer level, on the level that we are. But our answers are going to come from the man upstairs. And I firmly believe that's the case. And I believe that's where my answers are. I've come from and will continue to come from as I communicate with and talk with and visit with my peers. It helps me with a broader information base and a maybe broader basis to consider and think about what my answers come from, that through the Holy Ghost. And I believe that very strongly. Oh, wow. Okay. I need to go.

John Dehlin [00:49:59] Okay.

Guest 6 [00:49:59] But thank you for coming to see me.

John Dehlin [00:50:03] Thanks, Bishop.

Guest 6 [00:50:03] Thank you for coming. I'll keep you posted. Okay. If I've got questions, I'll reach out and let you know. Questions I have. Okay. By no means am I having a gender or place that I'm trying to get to. I need to understand more.

John Dehlin [00:50:23] Okay.

Guest 6 [00:50:23] Okay. Appreciate it. Thank you. Have a good evening. To you, too. I hope so.

Meeting with the Stake President

Part 4 of 6 · Ep. 1267

Guest 7 [00:00:01] Come in. John. Hello, President King. It's nice to meet you.

John Dehlin [00:00:04] Nice to meet you.

Guest 7 [00:00:05] Margi.

John Dehlin [00:00:06] Hi.

Guest 7 [00:00:06] Hi. How are you? Good.

Guest [00:00:10] Margaret. Nice to meet you.

John Dehlin [00:00:11] How are you?

Guest 7 [00:00:12] I'm great. Are you coming to support or be a part?

John Dehlin [00:00:16] To be a part, if I can.

Guest 7 [00:00:18] Certainly. That's if you've been invited by brother and sister Lynn. That's their decision.

John Dehlin [00:00:22] I haven't been invited.

Guest 7 [00:00:26] I already tend you that would be a decision that I won't push that budget. But I appreciate your support.

John Dehlin [00:00:31] That'd be great.

Guest 7 [00:00:33] Well, thank you for coming.

John Dehlin [00:00:36] Jenkins.

Guest 7 [00:00:37] Yes, President Jenkins.

Guest [00:00:38] King.

Guest 7 [00:00:38] King is easy because for everyone it's certainly the President King thing is something they've struggled with for a long time. Well, I can't even probably touch how much stress this has caused on your family. And I understand that. And I want you to know that while not in the same magnitude, I've wrestled with this as well and I've lost sleep, but again in a totally different perspective. And I hope you understand that. But this is not something that I've taken lightly and I think you need to understand that as well. And it's something that I want you to know that I prayerfully considered spoken with President Jensen. I know you've spent a lot of time visiting with President Jensen.

John Dehlin [00:01:29] Marlon Jensen.

Guest 7 [00:01:30] No, Mark Jensen. Mark Jensen, our previous stake president. Something that we've. We visited about as recently as just this morning. And so one of the things that I want you to know is that as a result of these conversations, the most important thing that I want you to know is I prayed about what we could talk about this morning. The answer that's come clearly to me is that it's my responsibility to listen. And so I want that to be the premise of kind of how we begin, what we want to talk about. And President Jenkins may ask. He may ask a question. He is certainly here just to be supportive of me, just as your wife is supportive of you.

John Dehlin [00:02:13] Sure. President Jensen would honor.

Guest 7 [00:02:17] Well, you know, sometimes it's important to have someone with you to help you. And so you speak clearly and so you can understand where you need to go. One of the things that I'd like to do, if it would be okay, would be to start this meeting with a word of prayer.

John Dehlin [00:02:29] Sure.

Guest 7 [00:02:30] And. And I'm going to be presumptuous and I'm going to say I would like to offer that, if that's okay. Okay. Our dear Father in heaven, as we come before thee at this time, we're grateful in our hearts for the many blessings that We've received. We acknowledge at this time that this is a difficult meeting. We acknowledge at this time that this is a difficult discussion. We simply ask for thy spirit to

John Dehlin [00:03:01] be with us, to

Guest 7 [00:03:04] help us to be understanding, to help us be direct, and to help us to know the path and the way that we should go. We acknowledge the strain and stress that this has caused upon the Delin family and all those individuals that have been involved, both those that have been supportive and those that have voiced their opinion in other directions. We ask that we might be able to discern the truth, the matter, and that we might be able to be inspired. Most importantly, we ask for thy spirit to attend us at this time. And we say these things humbly, in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

John Dehlin [00:03:46] Amen. Thank you.

Guest 7 [00:03:48] Well, and things that you will probably learn about me if you don't already know. I'm a surgeon. So subtlety is something that I'm not good at, and the reality of that matter is. So as a result of that, I'm pretty direct. So without changing the context or the spirit that I actually asked to be here, I have to ask you a straightforward question. And this comes through a discussion with President Jensen. Are you recording this? Both you, brother Sister Delynn, in any manner?

John Dehlin [00:04:18] Well, I brought paper in case I need to take notes.

Guest 7 [00:04:21] Notes are okay, but any voice or video recordings are not appropriate.

John Dehlin [00:04:26] Okay.

Guest 7 [00:04:26] Okay. And I think that's only fair. And then the next question is just a leap of faith that, you know, I would hope that our discussion would remain private and confidential. That was as we work through this and as we decide what we need to do. I'm not sure if you're at the point right now that you can actually feel that you can commit to that, but I put that out there on the table.

John Dehlin [00:04:47] Okay, well, I don't want to. I don't want our ability to communicate to be negatively impacted by that. There's obviously people who care about the story and people who care about what's going on. So what I can promise is to be super responsible about how and what I communicate.

Guest 7 [00:05:10] From my perspective, I think it would be better as we work through this privately that it would be something that would be private, and that would be my hope. What you choose from that is your decision. Okay, I appreciate that, but my counsel is that I'd like this to be private. I also think before I get into the just listen mode, that you need to know why we're here. I think that's fair. I mean, I can only be speculative and that can only be. I just. Just need to tell you, first of all, as I've shared with you in an email, that there's been no directed. Not received any instruction from our first presidency member quorum of the 12, presidency of the 17, to proceed in this manner. Sure. So I think. And then I wrote these down so that I would at least be clear in what I'm sharing with you. The prince that President Jensen and I visited earlier, and then we visited a couple of times. One visit that we had was immediately after I became the Stake President. And you need to understand that this situation was very much on his mind at that time. And so the attitude that I prayerfully considered was watch and see. And so a couple events transpired in that watch and see period of time. One of those was the letter, however that is interpreted, that you wrote to Bishop Hunt. And as a result of that, I thought, well, we will just wait and see. Another was not long, I think, in early May, a statement that basically reiterating or proclaiming or saying that you didn't believe in the core values or beliefs of the church. Core values, yeah. And I know that you sent me something the other day, and I read those, and then probably the most compelling reason why, and this is why we're here, is the tearful members of my stake that have come and shared with me how they felt that their families had been negatively impacted by Mormon Stories podcast. And so that's the reason why. And it would have happened sooner. And you understand there was no coordinated event about releasing the letter that I sent you. I would have been a couple of months sooner, but I had some moderately significant health issues that delayed that for at least a month, month and a half. But we would have been sitting here a month sooner if that not had happened. So I think that's fair to me to share with you why we're here. And my thought then is to listen. So your thoughts tell me your thoughts. Well,

Stake President Reviews Written Statements

John Dehlin [00:07:52] So I don't know how much you've read of what I've already written.

Guest 7 [00:07:55] Well, I've read what you sent me. Okay. But that's changed a few times, I think, since you've been sent to me.

John Dehlin [00:08:01] Just.

Guest 7 [00:08:01] Yeah, I think now you've got it, at least. So I. I even read back and. And went to the parts of the correspondence you'd had with Elder Oaks and your experience with remission. And so I hope that I have read that carefully. And recently, after you sent that to me, and I have to apologize, as a result of my surgery, I Had my thyroid out, so I can't. I have problems talking sometimes, so my mouth gets dry, so.

John Dehlin [00:08:31] Well, I mean, for me, everything I've tried to do has been an act of love for either the church or the members of the church. Up until my mission, I was just 100% completely committed in what happened in my mission, which Elder Oaks apologized me for, was really traumatic. And then when I got off my mission and found out that lots of missions were experiencing the same type of thing, and I even met with Elder Holland, and he told me about closing 30 stakes while he lived in Chile because of all the horrible practices that were going on down there. That was. You know, that's one significant thing that seen cause a lot of people pain. But, yeah, I mean, learning all the stuff I learned as a seminary teacher was devastating. I had not been taught about Joseph's polygamy or Joseph's polyandry. I had not been taught about the Book of Abraham and translation issues. I had not been taught about the Masonic Lodge stuff and the connection to the temple ceremony and just all that stuff. And it was incredibly. I felt lied to, I felt deceived. I felt betrayed, really. But my reaction wasn't to hurt the

Guest 7 [00:10:01] church,

John Dehlin [00:10:04] just to notice all the pain and suffering around me, notice the lack of resources that the church was making available, and then to try and be a part of the solution. So I left a really lucrative job and got paid almost nothing to try and be a part of the solution out of love for the church and for the members. So, of course, there have been times in my podcast where I've leaned more affirming, you know, and that's made people really upset at me. And there's been times where I've been angry and upset at the church, and that's made others upset at me. But I feel like it's an act of love. I feel like it's a testament to my commitment to the Mormon people and Mormonism. That's how I see it. This is like the fourth investigation now. Bishop Farmer investigated me several years ago.

Guest 7 [00:11:15] I'm sorry.

John Dehlin [00:11:16] No, it's okay. For drinking water. Water.

Guest 7 [00:11:19] No, it's just not. I can share. I have more in my.

John Dehlin [00:11:22] It's okay. Drink all you want. It was investigated by Mr. Farmer. He said, no problem. I spent a year with President Jensen. Oh, yeah, Stevenson. I met a year with President Jensen. What was most traumatic about that was to find out that my home teacher and Elders Quorum president, Stanton Allen for months was investigating me, copying and pasting things from my Facebook page from my Twitter feed while he was acting as a loving home teacher, betraying that confidence. It just felt really.

Guest 7 [00:12:02] Did he come back and talk to you about that?

John Dehlin [00:12:04] At some point, I had to confront him. I had to confront him. And also Ben Godfrey. You know, Bishop Stevenson had assigned two people to investigate me. And that's. It's just an awful feeling to feel like you're secretly being investigated by your church and by your home teacher, by your elders. Quorum president.

Guest 7 [00:12:28] But I'm sure at some point, you probably felt that the nature of what you were sharing on your podcast would be somewhat controversial.

John Dehlin [00:12:35] Oh, of course. Of course. Yeah, of course. But it's all there. Like, my priesthood leaders could look at it. I don't feel like I've been trying to hide who I am. But he even tried to. He discovered a secret group that I was a member of. Just because people wanted their confidentiality kept. He tried to join a secret group with a fake name.

Guest 7 [00:12:59] One.

John Dehlin [00:12:59] Yeah. There's nothing honorable about that. Nothing that's deceitful in my view and really invasive of privacy.

Guest 7 [00:13:08] So that.

John Dehlin [00:13:08] That was really traumatic. We forgave Stanton, or at least I did. And then I engaged with President Jensen, and I had a great exchange with him. And by the end of that, he's never asked me to take down Mormon stories.

Guest 7 [00:13:22] Right. And we talked about that.

John Dehlin [00:13:23] He's never asked me to do anything.

Guest 7 [00:13:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:26] And my beliefs. He let me baptize and confirm my son last year. Nothing of my beliefs have changed since then.

Guest 7 [00:13:34] Well, it's interesting, because as you make this statement, I asked President Jensen that same statement, and I share with him the most recent link that you had shared with me. And the question I asked him was, is this the same Brother deland that you visited with a year ago? His answer is much different, though. He feels that there's a change in spirit and a change in direction.

John Dehlin [00:14:00] Can I address that? Sure. Okay. So a year ago. A year ago, I'm paying my tithing. I'm living all the commandments, I'm active in church, bringing all my family to church. And I hear word that Stanton is speaking ill of me in pec or whatever it's called, that he's telling people I'm doing the best I can. I'm living the gospel. Temple Worthy. And Stanton's telling people, in the war. John's backsliding. John is not living the gospel. Stanton and Tyler Bruff start assaulting me online, like, challenging me, trying to egg me, trying to draw me out, trying to egg me on. Right. Trying to embarrass me. Trying to sow contention is how I see it. And I go to Elders Quorum, and Tyler starts giving these lessons where he's really sort of aggressive and kind of offensive to me, and they start sending me these private emails that, again, are really offensive and really aggressive. And that's not a warm. You know, that's just not a warm environment to go to Elders Quorum when you're feeling assaulted, to feel like your neighbors are spreading lies about you. Honestly, a year ago, I was feeling great.

Guest 7 [00:15:30] So.

John Dehlin [00:15:30] And then when I confronted Stanton about it, he denied it. He said, I haven't said a word about you to anybody.

Guest 7 [00:15:38] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:15:39] And people were in the meeting telling me, stanton is saying bad things about you. And then I said, stanton, are you saying bad things about me in bec. And he says, no.

Guest [00:15:53] So that was part of it. But then Bishop Hunt.

John Dehlin [00:15:56] Okay, yeah.

Guest 7 [00:15:56] So that.

John Dehlin [00:15:57] No, but that was last.

Guest [00:15:58] That was a part of it.

John Dehlin [00:15:59] That was last fall.

Guest 7 [00:15:59] Right.

John Dehlin [00:16:01] Okay. I went to President Jensen trying to get a temple recommend. It was right after Elder Clayton had come.

Guest 7 [00:16:10] He came twice. Well, he came one time in the summer, and then one time in the fall. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:16:16] Yeah. And when was the fall when they

Guest 7 [00:16:20] reorganized the state presidency?

John Dehlin [00:16:22] Okay.

Guest 7 [00:16:24] That would have been in November.

John Dehlin [00:16:25] Yeah. So. And President Jensen said he didn't feel good about giving any type of recommend, but he wouldn't tell me why. He wouldn't say, you're not obeying this commandment. You're doing this thing wrong. He just said, no.

Guest 7 [00:16:46] Right. And I asked him about that because I knew that that would be a question that you would probably pose to me, because I think that's a reasonable question. He felt it. And his answer to me when I asked him about that question is he felt that he was not in a position after praying that he should be doing that. And that's as simple as the response was. It wasn't that he was directed by anyone or that he had been informed or instructed by anyone as well, but

John Dehlin [00:17:10] you can understand that influence can be wielded without direct instruction.

Guest 7 [00:17:14] You know what? I look in President Jensen's eyes, and you've looked in his eyes before, and I don't believe this. That necessarily was the case in his situation or in yours. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:17:26] That may be true. So I felt like the church was rejecting me. When I was bringing my family to church, they were in callings. I was doing my best to. To cooperate and to. And I won't lie, my PhD research is on LGBT youth and the suicidality in the church. And I have become increasingly concerned by Elder Oaks rhetoric about same sex attraction and LGBT issues. And his talk in the October conference I worried would lead directly to more suicides. We had Debbie Barlow came into our house just yesterday with Phil, told us that a dear friend of hers, her son, just committed suicide just last week. They're in a support group of mothers who have gay and lesbian children. And I'm sorry, but I do feel like the rhetoric we use around same sex attraction can lead to suicide.

Guest 7 [00:18:32] So you basically feel that at the time you baptized your son, you were in a position where you were comfortable with the beliefs and teachings of the church?

John Dehlin [00:18:39] Well, no. I was completely honest with President Jensen. I mean, I didn't start this to, like, dig up dirt, but doing nine years of interviews and readings, there are huge questions that I have. There are huge doubts.

Guest 7 [00:18:57] Right. Well. And one of the questions that I asked, as I shared with you earlier, was just, you know, are. Was this the same person in this letter? That was the same person he felt like he interviewed or visited with for a year?

John Dehlin [00:19:11] When President Jensen worked with me, I felt loved. I felt like he wanted me. For me, my interactions with President Jensen were as much a test as anything. Not a test in the sense of trying to trap anybody, but it was to say, I'm going to be completely honest with you about my thoughts and feelings. 100% honest. I didn't hide anything from him. Every single thing that I wrote that I referred to in that. In that May blog post that concerns you, I shared with President Jensen. Every single one. And so, yeah. Do I sometimes have doubts about God? Absolutely. Do I sometimes not understand the atonement or Christ? Absolutely. Do I sincere concerns about the Book of Mormon's historicity? I think I have credible reasons to have concerns about that and the Book of Abraham. Do I believe in polygamy? No, I don't believe in polygamy. Do I believe that God curses people with dark skin for wickedness? No. Has the church backed off that rhetoric?

Guest 7 [00:20:18] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:20:19] And they backed off polygamy. So, yeah, I've got doubts and fears and concerns. So, anyway, what I experienced in the fall, if President Jensen wants to say I've changed, what I feel changed is that the church became hostile to me. I stopped feeling loved and accepted in this stake, and it started with Stanton and Tyler, but it wasn't encouraged at all by President Jensen's unwillingness to talk to me, to dialogue with me about why he was not allowing me to have a temple recommendation. Just to say I Don't feel good about it. I mean, it's his right. But it felt like rejection. So, anyway, then when Brian King calls me in his office, or Brian. Brian Hunt.

Guest [00:21:04] Wait, give me why he called you in. Because you bore testimony.

Guest 7 [00:21:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:09] So, Winston, my son, asked me to bear my testimony last fall, so I did. And I bore testimony about the things that I feel really strongly about in the gospel, like love, charity, love, compassion, forgiveness, faith, humility, repentance, the community. Those are things I have a strong testimony of, and I still do. A couple months later, Brian calls me in his office and says, I swear I thought he was going to offer me a calling because he had asked

Guest 7 [00:21:46] for a calling.

John Dehlin [00:21:47] Yeah. So he calls me in his office and he says, I remember your testimony from last fall. And I thought he was going to compliment me. I cried. My family cried. Other members of the ward came up and said how much they were touched by it. What he said was, I was really bothered by your testimony. And I said, why? He said, I didn't hear you bear testimony to any of the central elements of the gospel. Christ, the atonement, like forgiveness, love. That's not central. Charity. That's not central. The Book of Mormon says, if you have not charity, you have nothing. That was deeply offensive to me. And then he went on to read Alma 5, that said, what good shepherd among you would allow a wolf to run among the sheep? And he told me Stanton had been complaining to him about me. It's deeply offensive. And then he said, I am going to start another. Yet another investigation.

Guest 7 [00:22:54] I went, well, that was not the precipitating investigation or why we're here, too. He never came to me and said, this is what I did.

John Dehlin [00:23:02] I didn't. I'm not alleging.

Guest 7 [00:23:04] No. I'm just saying just to put this in perspective, too.

John Dehlin [00:23:07] Okay, well, I went back and talked to my wife, and she said, I do not want to put the family through another investigation. And should I have home teachers that may be investigating me? Like, can you see how. How awful this. This would feel? Can you see my point of view? And by the way, if you talk to any members of the stake who could tell you that I've actually helped them stay in the church. Have you even tried?

Guest 7 [00:23:32] Yeah, I have. The invitation's out to all parties equally. I don't have the list of individuals that you've helped, but the invitation has been extended.

John Dehlin [00:23:41] In what way?

Guest 7 [00:23:43] Through just the same ways to everyone else. Whenever people want to come and talk to me, I can visit with them. They can call, they can talk with me. I don't necessarily want to start a list of individuals that have been hurt or not hurt. That. That door is open. And that invitation is to all members of the state to come.

John Dehlin [00:24:02] Okay.

Guest 7 [00:24:03] All right. So those may. They may not have come forward yet, but they're welcome to come forward. Okay. But there hasn't been a selective. Pick these, Pick those. Okay. But this invitation is to all people.

Church Membership Status and Disbelief

John Dehlin [00:24:15] Okay. So I'm. You know, I can let people know that.

Guest 7 [00:24:19] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:24:20] But I hope that. That. I hope that you're not just listening to Tyler and Stanton.

Guest 7 [00:24:25] No, there are other members that I'm listening to.

John Dehlin [00:24:30] Okay. So. Yeah, so we didn't want to go through another investigation, and I hope you can understand why, especially because, as far as I was concerned, maybe my tone's changed because of the events of the past year, but the substance of my beliefs and the substance of my activities haven't changed. And so you can say, oh, well, your tone. The difference between President Jensen letting you baptize and confirm your son and now is that you're acting a little bit more upset. And I would just ask you, do you think that I have cause to be a little bit more upset?

Guest 7 [00:25:06] I do. I understand your position. I understand that you feel betrayed. I also understand that you're dealing with imperfect people.

John Dehlin [00:25:15] That's fine.

Guest 7 [00:25:16] But on the other hand, I don't think that necessarily. I take issue with some of the basic beliefs that you have in relationship to the way I believe.

John Dehlin [00:25:28] You take issue with my beliefs?

Guest 7 [00:25:30] No, I just take issue with the things that you say here. So I don't think those have changed.

John Dehlin [00:25:35] Like what things?

Guest 7 [00:25:36] Well, let me get out of the. I need to listen. Better Let me back off.

John Dehlin [00:25:45] No, no. Okay.

Guest 7 [00:25:48] Now, I just. I mean, you made it fairly straightforward about where you believe in the letters that you sent me or that you posted and you referred to.

John Dehlin [00:25:59] But I. If you have ways. If you have ways to help me, if you have answers to some of these questions, I'm.

Guest 7 [00:26:05] Well, I guess I need to just ask you a simple question, because it goes back to. And maybe this misinterpreting. And I think you've explained this to me, as you've said, shared with me the content of your letter when you said, basically, don't consider me a member of the ward or don't contact me. And I think you've clarified that later and said you really just mean not to be contacted. Is that correct?

John Dehlin [00:26:28] Because we're tired of investigations. And, yeah. We want to be loved and accepted, not investigated. And Judged.

Guest 7 [00:26:37] Right. So I guess the simple question I have is, what does the piece of paper that says you're a member of the Church of Jesus Christ and Latter Day Saints mean to you? Because, I mean, I just posed that question.

John Dehlin [00:26:53] I don't know, is it the piece of paper you want to understand my feelings about or just my identity?

Guest 7 [00:26:59] And the membership issue, I guess, is the part that I'm asking about.

John Dehlin [00:27:08] It's complex. I think I made it clear to you I love everything good that I am, in some ways, I feel like comes from my upbringing in the church. There's a ton of teachings. I still, to this day, never tried alcohol, never tried a cigarette. I believe in the law of chastity, like my family, in many ways, is completely benefiting by affiliation, as am I. I completely. President Jensen helped me through some incredibly difficult times in my marriage. And I love the hymns. I love the core teachings. I love the community. I'm proud to be a Mormon. Like, I started, this is an act of love for Mormonism. But anyone who looks at the past 150 years is going to realize that the church has changed on a ton of very important issues. Right? You know, polygamy caused a lot of pain to the church, and they stopped it. They stopped it after saying it would never be stopped. They stopped after saying it was a requirement to be in the celestial kingdom at the highest degree. Like, they gave blacks the priesthood, then they took it away, then they gave it back. Change happens, right? And I think those were good changes. And so if I sit up there at USU Counseling center and counsel youth after youth that is contemplating suicide, okay. And I ask myself, is the church's position the fact that there's no real place for LGBT people to be active participants in the church today and. And to be able to love who they want to love, love who they're wired to love, I have to be able to say, maybe there's change here, too. And, in fact, the church has changed over the past 20 years on this issue radically. So what I hear from your question is, if you want things to get better, you don't. Why would you value the church at all? That question doesn't make sense to me. Doesn't make sense at all. That's all. All I'm saying is I want there to be less pain and suffering in the church.

Guest 7 [00:29:52] How do you think being a member of the church helps you solve that problem?

John Dehlin [00:29:57] Helps me solve the problem?

Guest 7 [00:29:59] Well, what does the. I guess the actual response, the reality of this is if you. What keeps you in the church. What keeps you from leaving the church? What keeps you from moving to the side where you say, I believe.

John Dehlin [00:30:19] There's a lot I do believe. Everyone wants to put this in a binary thing where I've rejected everything about the church. I still believe in what I think the church put out a statement on Mormon doctrine a few years ago. What it said is, the teachings of Jesus Christ are at the center of the church. And you and others seem to want to just ignore that. I'm telling you, I believe in charity. I believe in faith. I believe in repentance. I believe in humility and service. And I think that's what's at the center of this church. And I think the church does a great job at encouragement imbuing those virtues. Is that not. And I sat with President Jensen in that chair and I said, I don't know that I can tell you that I believe the Book of Mormon is historical. I don't know that I can tell you that I know God lives, but I can tell you that I completely sign up to following the example of Christ. And I said to him, what I need to know from you is, is that enough? And what he said to me in tears was, that's enough. So for me, there wasn't some litmus test of beliefs. You have to believe this or you can't disbelieve that. It's like. And the church is full of people that believe all sorts of things.

Guest 7 [00:31:44] I understand that.

John Dehlin [00:31:46] So it sounds like you're saying, why do you love the church and the members? And I. I don't know how else I could communicate that to you. Everything I've done has come with a huge personal sacrifice and a family sacrifice. It's not like I'm making a ton of money off of this. It's not like my neighbors like me better and my kids are happier in the community. It's been awful. But I've done this out of love for the church and its members.

Guest 7 [00:32:16] What about. And this is just a question that I throw out for you to think about. What about those members that have come to me who have been tearful, who have felt that their families have been influenced negatively by the content of what you've done or what you've shared?

John Dehlin [00:32:30] I'd love you to really think about that for a second. Okay. I didn't. Okay. So I'm going to tell you what the historical record as I understand it shows. Okay? Joseph Smith was practicing polygamy. Okay. Joseph Smith was lying about it and telling people he wasn't Practicing polygamy openly. Okay? Joseph Smith was going to other people's wives. He would meet with them while the man wasn't home, and he would say, will you be my wife? Then the man would come home and say, what was Joseph doing with you? And the wife would say, he was asking me to be his plural wife. The person then would say, joseph, sorry, we're not comfortable. Joseph, I'm not comfortable giving my wife to you. Joseph would turn around and publish that that woman was a whore in the newspaper, okay? While still denying that he was practicing polygamy. So then Joseph gets a printing press. These people get a printing press to say, Joseph's lying and he's approaching other people's wives and they tell the truth, and then he has the printing press destroyed. I didn't do all that. That's not me. And you know what? The church hasn't been open and honest about what really happened there. We talk about it like, he went like a lamb to the slaughter. Okay? If somebody learns that factual history on my podcast, it's very easy to blame me. The fact that they learned that, okay, but that's not my fault. And what I think is the problem is that we're not talking openly about these issues. And I can say the same issue about the Book of Abraham. It's not my fault that Egyptologists translated the papyrus. The Joseph said that he translated, and that the translation of that papyrus has nothing to do with the text in the Book of Abraham. I didn't create that scenario. But that's important information. That's not a trivial matter. Joseph claimed to have translated that. So what I can tell you is that thousands of people have told to me that I've helped them stay in the church. And if I did this with Bishop Farmer and I did this with President Jensen. If you want me to ask my listeners to email or mail you letters, I imagine over a thousand will arrive. And I haven't done that because that feels like gaming the system. That feels like. But I can do that. Okay, so you can cherry pick a few people that have expressed concern, but I'm just telling you, I'm the. I'm. I'm. And I had Richard Bushman on my podcast. I've had Terrell Givens. It's not like I've just brought on the dissenters. And the church is just now starting to come clean with its history just now. So I. So I feel bad. I feel bad. Thousands of people come to me and say, what should I do about the church? And you Know what I say? I say stay as long as you can stay. That's always my counsel. Can you find any place where I've told someone to leave the church ever?

Guest 7 [00:35:53] I don't have the time to listen to.

John Dehlin [00:35:55] No, I'm just telling you I never have. Never once. I'm still in it. My daughter is a beehive president,

Guest 7 [00:36:04] so

John Dehlin [00:36:07] I feel bad, but I didn't do those things. And I. That's the record. That's the historical record. So. And you know what? Do you know how many people told me that they've left the church because of fare the apologetic site or farms? They go up on that site and they learn all sorts of issues. I could probably get a thousand people to send you letters about how Farron Farms has led them out of the church. I can get people to. I can get people that say that Joseph Smith's own words led them out, out of the church, that the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham led them out of the church. I just don't think. Blaming me for discussing these issues and trying to do it in a balanced way. I think what that does is it misses the fact that the church and you and others need to take more of a responsibility to help people and to be. And to offer good solutions. I would have you, if you had answers to these questions, I'd have you on the podcast.

Guest 7 [00:37:05] The problem is that I may not have the answers to your questions, but I have a testimony. And that testimony has been through a crisis of faith myself. And I've heard all of the arguments. I served my mission in Texas, Oklahoma, Missouri. So many of the things that you share about the history were things that I've seen. I'm not that much older than you, but I was able to see them sooner than you saw them. So somewhere along the lines I had my crisis of faith and I came to resolution that irrespective of these things at this time I may not understand, but in a bigger perspective, I have a belief and a testimony and I'm not stumbling on these small things.

John Dehlin [00:37:54] And I love that I. And I'm not trying, I'm not trying to convince you. I'm just trying to help the people that are struggling get to a place where they can be happy and healthy. If somebody, if some, if a husband in a marriage is struggling in their faith, it's not uncommon for the wife to say, look, you either straighten up or I'm leaving you and taking the kids. That's a situation where that person needs help. And that's What I've been trying to help.

Guest 7 [00:38:27] One of the things that I'll share with you too, and a few of the podcasts that I've listened to,

Guest [00:38:34] and

Guest 7 [00:38:34] this may go contrary to what you say here, I do believe in Jesus Christ and I believe that he is the literal head and organizer of this church. I also believe that when I counsel, I counsel seeking his inspiration. Observation, not criticism. I don't see, and obviously you counsel in a secular way too, that you can't say I received direct inspiration or I feel privileged inspiration. But I see absence of that as you counsel or share with these individuals that overriding influence or spirit of a belief or a testimony of Jesus Christ specifically as the savior of mankind, as the literal son of our Father in heaven. And I see that absent in the core teachings of what you believe on Mormon stories. And I weigh that probably unfairly as I. You know how we always say it's a trite statement in the church sometimes, and we always say in the name of Jesus Christ, I think sometimes we need to step back and say to ourselves, are we really saying that? And I worry about, as we share these facts and as we share these thoughts, that there isn't some better purpose other than disclosure to belief in Jesus Christ. So that's probably, Brother Dylan, probably my biggest concern.

John Dehlin [00:40:07] Okay. And I'll just say two things. There's a part in the Doctrine and Covenants that says it is given to some to know and is given to others. Given to others to kind of believe on their words. Right. I read the Book of Mormon as a 16 year old cover to cover. I was regional Scripture Chase Champion, Seminary president. Lived all the commandments as best as I could. Okay. The church was everything to me because my parents were divorced when I was young and it's just what I cling to. My whole identity. I got to the end of that and I prayed and I prayed and I prayed and I didn't get any type of response that I had been led to believe I would get. And I kept trying and I kept trying. Now that doesn't mean that I haven't felt anything. Inspiration. Over the years I have felt moments of incredible inspiration. But I don't have communication with the divine in a way to where I can say I know that there is definitely a God or that there's. That Jesus definitely lived for me. Yeah. Do I hope that we're all resurrected and live in the afterlife? That'd be awesome. I hope that's true. But for me, and I wrote this about my Savior, it's just a hope. I have hope or faith, but not knowledge. I don't have knowledge. I just don't have it. And so that's. Yeah, that's missing because I don't have that. But it's not because I haven't tried.

Guest 7 [00:41:39] And I understand that there have been, as you put forth, a good effort. There have been things that have sabotaged that effort, at least by your home teachers or your perception of what they were doing. But I guess the question I have too is, do you think you could ever resolve this crisis of faith or this belief or not belief?

John Dehlin [00:41:57] You know, one of the people counseling me is Maxine Hanks. She was excommunicated as part of the September 6th. She's rejoined the church. I don't know. Like, I think it would be short sighted and arrogant for me to say that I'll never change. You know, who else has been counseling me is Elder Christofferson's brother, Tom Kristofferson. He's a gay man who's been excommunicated from the church and he still believes it all, but he said that wasn't how it was when he left the church. So I guess right now I'm like, wow, I don't know what that would look like, right? But in theory, I'm holding myself open to that possibility because who knows? The older I get, the less life experience, I don't know. But right now, right now, I'm where I am and I'm having trouble and I feel rejected by the church community and I have a lot of doubts and questions and no one's been able to really help out with them. And so, you know, I guess all I can do is just do my best.

Guest 7 [00:43:15] Well, I'm sure you're aware of that. I know you're aware of the statement that the church recently released. As of yesterday, I'm not sure what this means either. I'm sure you've read that statement and I know you posted it on your Facebook. And, You know, it's an interesting dilemma that we face, that simply asking the questions does never constitute apostasy. And I think that's the issue that I brought up with you, is apostasy. Apostasy is repeatedly acting in clear, open and deliberate public opposition to the church or faithful leaders, or persisting after receiving counsel and teaching false doctrine. I do not know how that applies to our situation. Our. I have not prayed about that. I have not taken that to the Lord. I am concerned about the content of Mormon Stories Podcast, the content of the other Websites.

John Dehlin [00:44:12] Which ones?

Guest 7 [00:44:15] I don't have. There's. I don't think you're associated with this one this day. Lds. There was a Mormon and I don't remember there's others. Mormon living or Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:44:26] Mormon Matters?

Guest 7 [00:44:27] Mormon matters.

John Dehlin [00:44:29] So you are concerned about those?

Guest [00:44:30] No.

Guest 7 [00:44:30] I know that you asked me what

John Dehlin [00:44:32] other websites were, but you said you're concerned with Mormon stories and other ones.

Guest 7 [00:44:35] Well, I meant this one and the fact that there are other websites out there.

John Dehlin [00:44:39] Okay.

Guest 7 [00:44:41] And I'll be honest with you, this is a new thing that the Church is dealing with, is social media. And social media actually provides a voice for you in North Logan to contact someone in Holland or contact someone in Germany or someone in South America. And it certainly does bring to question some of the things that you present. The question is, what do we do as a church? One of the responsibilities that I have is to maintain the pure doctrine of the Church, to protect the members of the church, to counsel with members of the church as well. And that's one of the things that I'm learning as a stake President of what to do and where to go. But I do know that through inspiration we are here at this point. I'm not sure where we will go from this point. It's something that I haven't inquired of the Lord. It's something that I will take to the Lord and I will prayerfully consider what we need to do. I can't give you an answer yet of what we should do and where we should go. I can tell you that I don't think this should string out for another year. I think this is really truly the point of the road that we stand, that we say, which way are we going to go? What are we going to do? Because I don't think it's fair to your family to have this happen every year or every time a stake president changes or every time a new bishop is called or anytime something else happens. I believe that the keys exist. I believe that men are learning how to administrate in these keys. Sometimes we do it better than others. And I'm learning my subtleness to try to be more compassionate. I mean, my directness in trying to be more compassionate and more listening and more understanding. I'm learning, I'm evolving in that.

Family Concerns and Emotional Exchange

John Dehlin [00:46:21] I know this is probably hard for you guys, and I'm sorry for that. Your letter scared me.

Guest 7 [00:46:28] Well, it was. My intention was to frame it in such a way to show you my concern, show you my directness, and to resolve the issue about where do we Go with the letter you sent Bishop Hunt. I mean, because one avenue would have been to follow that avenue down. The other avenue would be to visit, which I offered in the third Avenue, which is something we haven't even decided would be a disciplinary council.

John Dehlin [00:47:00] Well, we would. We still. Margi just said to me the other day, I hope we still go to church. You know, my daughter's beehive president. If we don't feel like everybody's out to get us, we still like going to church.

Guest 7 [00:47:15] Yeah, I don't know how to take that away, other than to know that we will always have this. I mean, this discussion will exist because that is my responsibility, is to visit with you like that. I just don't think it's in the nature of your neighbors to not talk to you. I hope it's not in the nature of members of our ward or our stake not to play soccer with you or to have your kids.

John Dehlin [00:47:40] That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about Stanton or Tyler emailing me saying that they hope I get excommunicated, or them secretly gathering information and giving it to you. I don't know if you're encouraging that or supporting it.

Guest 7 [00:47:52] No. In fact, I was very clear with Brother Allen at one time. I met with him in preparation for our meeting. I told him several months ago to stop.

John Dehlin [00:48:01] That's good to know.

Guest 7 [00:48:02] And just because I think that it was not healthy for you and it wasn't healthy for him. So he's not actively been part of that or in giving me information for probably four or five months.

John Dehlin [00:48:16] What about Tyler?

Guest 7 [00:48:18] I've never even spoken with Tyler about this, so that's as straightforward and as honest as I can be,

John Dehlin [00:48:26] so. Well, you're welcome to ask me questions directly.

Guest 7 [00:48:28] Yeah. Well, if it's okay. I just. I want to make sure that. Well, it's like I shared before. I don't want to bring any more pain to your family, but I also have to take this matter to the Lord, and I don't want Sister to Lynn. I don't want you to feel any. I want you to feel important in this process, and I want you to feel like you have an opinion or a voice. I know you're here to support your husband as well, but I don't want you to feel that your presence here is not acknowledged. In support. Well, I just. You know, when we talk, I don't want you to feel like I'm not directing questions to you or asking you questions as well. So, you know, really, that was I tried to come up with questions, to come up with some thought, but I can't. I mean, really, truly the answer that I received is listening.

John Dehlin [00:49:41] Well, thanks for listening.

Guest 7 [00:49:42] Well, and I. And this is something that you've wrestled with, and I will wrestle with this. I will lose sleep and I will prayerfully consider, I will counsel. But any decision we make will not be trivial nor be directed. That's something that has been clearly explained to me, that this is not someone's other than my decision. This is. I hold the keys. This is a local decision. So I don't really have anything else to say. I don't know, President Jenkins, if you have anything to say or.

John Dehlin [00:50:24] I think you've done well.

Guest 7 [00:50:26] Well, we share a mutual friend. You know, the mutual friend that we share. And he's a great guy and I love him to death. And when he put the two, the Brian King. How many Brian Kings can there be in Logan? There's probably one. There's probably several that wish they weren't right now. But he came to me very tearful and he loves you and I think he's an amazing man. So I know that there are good people out there. I want you to know that. I think you have a good heart. Well, you don't know me. I'm the bad guy. And I don't mean to be. I don't think well, and I appreciate that. But it's in it. And my belief carries with it a huge responsibility, one that I didn't ask for and one that I'm learning on, how to learn to exercise the keys that I've been given. And I believe in those keys and I believe in the restoration of the gospel. You know that it was interesting when you said your parents were divorced. I come from a similar background and I made a commitment similar to you, to use the church as my belief system. And it's worked well for me, but that's the result of that. That's where my testimony lies. And I believe in the truths of these things that we talked about. So we'll be different. And I can hope that we can agree to. Yeah, we believe in the end results are the same, but the mechanics may be different. But I hope that we can agree to disagree about some things.

John Dehlin [00:52:26] Sure, no problem.

Guest 7 [00:52:29] So. But I appreciate you coming today.

John Dehlin [00:52:31] I think we agree maybe on many of the most important things.

Guest 7 [00:52:34] I'm sure we do. So thank you for coming.

John Dehlin [00:52:39] Do you want to say anything?

Guest 7 [00:52:42] I mean, I want the opportunity to be here for you.

Guest [00:52:49] I tend to get emotional.

Guest 7 [00:52:50] It's embarrassing, but that's okay. I have tissue. I'm kind of a quit to Christy present, too. It's not something I'm proud of.

Guest [00:53:05] Okay. At one point, you asked a question about Christ with regard to John and counseling. And I just wanted to say I find that to be a really tricky question, because to some, John is extremely Christlike, and they would be. The church is not very Christlike to them or to those that struggle. And I know that cuts both ways. I know there are people that struggle based on things that they've read. But for me, living with John, he's extremely Christlike and privately pained for people's pain and suffering. And that doesn't mean that he hasn't made mistakes. But his love is action. He lives it, you know? So I just wanted to put that out there, that there are many, many people right now who I feel like, with regard to the church, aren't feeling a Christlike love, who do feel it through John and do feel that hope and that. And I look at that picture, and I look at that one Lamb, and he's there for that one Lamb that's not being reached for some reason by the church right now. And I would think that the Savior would want. That would want someone there as an

Guest 7 [00:54:27] adventure, not by accident. That's in my office. I shared that same responsibility.

Guest [00:54:33] So there's that. And then the only other thought I had was, we're not out of touch with what we're doing. And when John started almost 10 years ago, the biggest thing on my mind was that this was his journey. And it turned out kind of being our journey. But I wanted my children to have their own journeys, to not wear our baggage, that they have the freedom to have their own. And the worst thing about this process for me is that when we got your letter, we had talked about excommunication, and we thought, we will do nothing different. We will go, we will love people, and we will just continue on as we have. But when you talked about announcing it on the pulpit, that is what mortified us, because we thought we would just have had our kids, not be touched as much as possible, let them have their own. That is my only desire as a mother, is that I don't feel like I've taken something for them or ask them to bear something that wasn't theirs to begin with. And now I feel like through this process, I have a fear and a concern that some of that. And I'm not blaming anyone, because I think we. We are very well aware that we Play a part that our choices, you know.

Guest 7 [00:56:01] Well, you're also very aware that this has been taken to the world because you've released it to the world.

John Dehlin [00:56:07] Right? Right. What, the podcast?

Guest 7 [00:56:09] Well, no, our letter and our meeting.

John Dehlin [00:56:10] But the letter said, if you resign, that's why I will be telling all the adults a mistake.

Guest 7 [00:56:17] So that left us with.

John Dehlin [00:56:18] No, that left us. It was going to go public anyway.

Guest 7 [00:56:21] So the letter would be. If you read carefully, that if we proceed with a disciplinary council as a

John Dehlin [00:56:27] result of that, can I read it?

Guest 7 [00:56:29] Yeah, go ahead and read that.

John Dehlin [00:56:31] And if it's a misunderstanding, I just want.

Guest 7 [00:56:33] Well, let's clarify that, because my intent, at least as I think about that was, is that it wasn't. If you resigned, you would announce.

John Dehlin [00:56:43] You should be. You should also be aware that if you choose to have your name removed from church records, I feel it is important to make an appropriate announcement to the adults in the stake that you have chosen.

Guest [00:56:53] At that point, as a mother, I'm

John Dehlin [00:56:55] thinking it's going to go public either

Guest [00:56:57] way, with people that they know, and then we have a decision to make. I'm not. I'm not blaming you. I think this is a really.

John Dehlin [00:57:05] Maybe church policy.

Guest 7 [00:57:06] It's a tricky thing, actually, is church policy. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:14] So it's not. We're not saying you're a bad guy, but I'm just saying that letter, it's going to go public. It's just a matter of when.

Guest [00:57:20] So then we thought, oh, my gosh, now we have to tell them, which I don't. For us, we were going to. Our plan had always been, let it be ours. Let it be, and we'll just sort of. And so at that point, it put us in a position where it's just uncomfortable and we share a part in that. But I just. It's my concern now, as a mother that. And we're doing our best with our kids right now to say, this is not yours to bear. This is not yours. If you love it, Claire, you're president, you go. And there's goodness there. But I just want you to be aware that their stories aren't written yet, you know, and that they still.

John Dehlin [00:58:00] Our daughter Maya, her whole life is wanting to go to byu.

Guest [00:58:02] Byu.

John Dehlin [00:58:02] And now she's saying, they won't let me go.

Guest [00:58:04] They're not going to let me in. You think Bishop Hunt is going to write my bishop's letter? What kind of letter is he going to write to byu? It's just.

Guest 7 [00:58:11] I would bet in relationship to everything they've told me about your children, that there would be no hesitation to write a letter of endorsement for them to go to church school. I know that for a fact. I know every time that they mention your children kid's name, it's been, they're amazing, great kids. And that actually has come through. Brother Stanton several months ago mentioned that, too. You have a great family, and I

Guest [00:58:36] guess I would hope that that would be so. But I feel shaken a little bit for that. And my kids have had different interactions with Bishop Hunt, and I don't expect this is easy for him either.

John Dehlin [00:58:47] You know this. But, Bishop, my daughter Anna, if she masturbated behind a closed door, Anna has no problems with anything. And that was. She was active in the church until that point.

Guest [00:58:59] Yeah, but not only that. Like, my daughters have taught lessons where Bishop Khan has sat in beautiful lessons where they pull in music and pull in different. And the girls in the classroom are not on their phones. They're participating. They cry, they share heartfelt things. And at the end, he did to Maya what he did to John with his testimony, where it was like, you know what? I didn't hear a testimony at the end of that lesson. No positive feedback. It's just I didn't hear. So for us, maybe our experience is a little bit different, and I want to have that hope, but I don't feel very secure in that at this stage in the game. And so my Mama Bear comes out a little bit with that, because I do feel protective of them, and I do want to them to have choices and feel. And so I'm doing the best I can with just sort of the stuff at home anyway, and trying to have them know this is not a loyalty test. And by the way, I'm like this with our friends, too, who come and they're trying to say, well, we support you and, like, we want them on our side. And I say, I don't want you on our. This isn't a side thing. This is our journey, and you love it, and it works for you, and we see it and go your way, and you don't have to hold it for us. This is not some battle or war to be won. And I feel that very much with our kids, too.

Guest 7 [01:00:12] You know, I think that's very wise, what you said. This is not a war to be won. This may come down to just a difference in doctrine, difference interpretation of the doctrine and direction and not a battle. But I can promise you, your kids, I would wholeheartedly, because I graduated from by byu, write that ecclesiastical endorsement. You May not get that from President Jenkins because he graduated from Utah State. And there's a certain animosity here if you don't go against BYU and Catch Valley, but we matter.

John Dehlin [01:00:44] Byu. I have two degrees from utested.

Guest 7 [01:00:47] And so I wholeheartedly endorse any young men or young women who has the courage to say, want to go to

John Dehlin [01:00:53] BYU and catch Valley.

Guest 7 [01:00:56] But, you know, it's interesting and I. When you said, John, that you came from divorced parents, I felt empathetic for you because I did, too. And I had the same situation. My father left the church for various reasons, and so I, you know, left with the. Lived with the stigma of a father who had been active, had been a member of the church and who left and, you know, suddenly was in a situation that wasn't ideal and wasn't perfect. And so I can, I, I will never say I can be empathetic with the position you're in, but I can share some of the feelings that you're having about, you know, questioning and what's going on and what's my position going to be. Fathers and Sons was always a difficult time for me because I always worried who would be assigned to take me to Fathers and Sons. But you know what? Years later, I realized it was probably as difficult for them as it was for me, but the sheer fact that someone did was a great thing.

John Dehlin [01:01:51] It's beautiful.

Guest 7 [01:01:52] So, but family wise, you know, this is your journey. You start and finish as a family. Please understand, your kids are loved, your family's loved. And I've reiterated that to you, that if we, if our differences come to where we're in a different place, that will not change. So thank you for coming.

John Dehlin [01:02:18] Thanks. So it's got this thing about teaching false doctrine.

Guest 7 [01:02:23] You have the list, right?

John Dehlin [01:02:25] No, I'm just saying I don't know that I am much of a teacher that way, so I don't know how you interpret that kind of stuff.

Guest 7 [01:02:34] I'm not sure either. So I'll know more as I pray. Well, thank you. And I don't want to draw this off forever. It's not kind. That's me. And that's the part where I have to exercise. I have to learn to be. I don't have to learn to be quick. That's my problem. I have to learn to be at the right time.

Guest [01:02:55] We like quick, too.

Guest 7 [01:02:56] Yeah.

Guest [01:02:57] So we may be a good match.

Guest 7 [01:02:59] You could have been a great surgeon. So. Well, I'm sure your dad's out there and I'm sure he's been very supportive, very grateful for you.

John Dehlin [01:03:08] Well, thanks.

Guest 7 [01:03:16] Thank you.

Fifth Meeting and Formal Discipline Discussion

Part 5 of 6 · Ep. 1268

Guest 8 [00:00:02] How are you? Hello.

John Dehlin [00:00:05] Hey.

Guest 8 [00:00:06] Come in. Have a seat.

John Dehlin [00:00:08] Your name is?

Guest [00:00:10] Dave.

John Dehlin [00:00:10] Dave.

Guest 8 [00:00:10] President Jenkinson.

Guest [00:00:13] Okay.

Guest 8 [00:00:14] How are you? Good. Thank you for rearranging our time because I would not have made the original plan.

John Dehlin [00:00:21] Oh, good.

Guest 8 [00:00:22] So it worked out okay. That worked out. It actually worked quite well.

John Dehlin [00:00:25] Good.

Guest 8 [00:00:26] Well, thank you for coming.

John Dehlin [00:00:28] Thank you.

Guest 8 [00:00:29] I think there have been a combination of some things that have happened in my life and things, responsibilities that you've had as well, that have kind of pushed this longer than I wanted to have gone. But I wanted to at least to have it in a position that all of us could be here together. So I appreciate you coming again this evening. Do you mind if we again open with a word of prayer?

John Dehlin [00:00:49] Not at all.

Guest 8 [00:00:50] Okay. President James, do you mind?

John Dehlin [00:00:55] Our dear Father in heaven, we are

Guest [00:00:56] very grateful this evening for the. Any blessings that we enjoy in our lives. We are grateful that we can meet together this evening, continue the discussions that we have had. We pray for thy spirit to be here. May be a spirit of understanding and love that is felt and appreciated and known. We pray that we may speak openly and seek to understand and to appreciate each other's positions. We are grateful for the many blessings that we enjoy, for the blessings that are upon our families, and we pray that they will watch over and protect them in our absence. Grateful for the Savior and his atoning sacrifice on our behalf. And we say this with gratitude, in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.

Guest 8 [00:01:41] Amen. Thank you. I want you to know it's interesting how things happen in life. I'm sure you appreciate that as well. I think my whole experience in anticipation of our meeting was kind of summed up today in a mutual friend that we met. And it was just in a conversation in the hallway, and it was one or two words, and it was Mike Con. We were both in the OR today, and we were passing, and Mike mentioned to me, he said, so you meet with John and his wife this evening? And I said, yes, that's true, I do. And he mentioned in observation the toll that this has taken on your family and how he has seen that. Wait. And I stopped and reflected for a minute, and I just briefly shared with Mike that I equally have shared some of that responsibility and some of those experiences. Well, mine may not have been as open, as public as yours. Mine have come in emails, messages, left on answering machines at work that have not always been very supportive.

John Dehlin [00:02:54] I've never given your information to anybody.

Guest 8 [00:02:57] It's easy to find out, and it's easy.

John Dehlin [00:02:59] I've never encouraged anyone to contact you

Guest 8 [00:03:01] and I don't believe you have other

John Dehlin [00:03:02] than the ones you and I do

Guest 8 [00:03:04] not believe in any respect that you have. And I only use that to illustrate. I'm sorry, if you've received, and I full well knew as we embarked down this path that that would be something that would happen. It's unfortunate because my family's been affected just as your family's been affected in ways that have extended even beyond our little local area in which we live. The Internet is a worldwide tool that basically exists and can affect people all over the world. So I just want you to know that since we last met that there has not been a day go by on more than one occasion that I haven't reflected upon our association and the decisions that may be before us in what we do. So I have taken this with every, every measure of sincerity. Also, it's a weighty responsibility to be the stake president. You are given keys, oftentimes not a lot of instruction with those keys as to what to do. There's general guidelines and handbooks and instruction that are contained in those. At the end of the day, it is your responsibility to see and do and be responsible for those members that reside in your stake. And so that's a large responsibility. It would be much easier if someone had said this is what you should do or not to. And I assure you again that that's not been the case has been speculated before. There is no direction, there is no coordinated effort. And it was purely coincidental that our first association started at the same time that Kate Kelly's association started in the paper. 100% coincident. I think as I've pondered and prayed and fasted about what we should do and where we should go, I think it comes down simply to we have differences in doctrine. Many people have. And I think it's fair that I share with you too that people have contacted me and have said, neighbors, what great individuals and people that you are, and close neighbors, people that you probably share backyards with or side yards, other people. And I've accepted that and I've been gracious as I've received those. And so you need to know that there is support and concern for you. My only comment to them is that I do not have an issue with the Delins as a family or the Delins as people or individuals. My responsibilities to stay present is doctrinal. And it comes down to the differences in beliefs that we have. And it can be based simply in the fact that as I shared with you last time, my testimony that I believe in God. I believe that his Son is Jesus Christ. And I believe in his saving power of the atonement, which I think is different than some of the things that you have said and we've shared, that you've shared with me and that you've published. And so I think it comes down simply to the fact that we're here at that crossroads where we go from this point. At that crossroads, I have specific feelings of where we should go. There are no doors closed. I have some predict thoughts that I've written down or thoughts that I've written down. And I'd be happy as we go through this and share those with you. But I think that. And I've written you a letter that I share with you. I would hope, and this is your prerogative of what you do with that letter, based upon your decision of what you decide to do. I would hope that our discussions could be in confidence, again, not recorded, simply because I think in that sense I can speak more openly. No one wants to feel like every word that they may say may be taken out of context. It's very, very difficult to do that in my professional life. Many times it's interesting to read a patient's perception of the care that they received. A patient do the things over and over again. And I think I'm the same person. Some things I do over and over and over again. But how interesting it is to see how the same words of my mouth and I have the same sentences and the same discussion that happens over and over again. Sometimes it's misinterpreted or ghost. So I hope and I share that with you in the sense that our conversations are not shared outside of this. They're not shared in our High Council meetings. President Jenkins and I are the only ones who talk about this. And it's within the confidence of that capacity that we talk. So that's my invitation to you. I will share with you this letter that has my thoughts, because I think that's clear of what I feel and what I feel inspired to share with you this evening. So it's your decision at that point, what you do with that. So I think most of it stems, Brother deland, from a long history of where we are. It started a long, long time ago. Our meeting today was probably inevitable. If it wasn't me, it may have been another stake president 10 years from now. But at some point, our past would come together. I share this in point. I was looking up something about an author that I enjoy reading about, Robert Millet and I was googling something, trying to find some information about him, and one of the opportunities that came up in relationship to his surge was a podcast or a post that you had done about him in, I believe, 2006 or 2005, long time ago, about a

John Dehlin [00:09:28] statement he made to UAE students about.

Guest 8 [00:09:31] No, it was about missionaries in the MTC and about teaching them how to. The context was not encouraging and not what I would like to see. It was about the deceptive practices of the missionaries and how they've been taught in the mtc. And that was part of your podcast for that period of time. So I share with you my experience as I've had an opportunity to research some of these things, statements that you've made that I think are why we're here. And I think it's fair that I share these with you, if that's okay. Okay. One of these things, and these as best as I can, are quotes from things that have come from either Internet posts or podcasts in the past.

John Dehlin [00:10:14] Did you gather these or did other people provide them?

Guest 8 [00:10:17] I gathered some. Some came to me unsolicitedly from resources throughout the world. That's the problem. That's what happened as my name got out there. So some of them I've seen personally, some of them have been shared with me. I have tried to equally filter. You know, I originally put restrictions on who could email you or who could email me with members of our stake. That didn't necessarily always happen. It happened. So I read each email from all parties that send those. One of the things that you've taught is the probability of God that he exists is quite low. And if God and Jesus really exist, they have a lot of explaining to do. Another thing that you've said is you've expressed your belief that the odds are very low that Christ was the Son of God and that he was actually resurrected.

John Dehlin [00:11:10] Do you have dates for these?

Guest 8 [00:11:11] No.

John Dehlin [00:11:12] Do you think that's important at all?

Guest 8 [00:11:14] I do, because I will give you this letter and give you the opportunity to go and refute everything that I

Guest [00:11:18] say,

Guest 8 [00:11:21] and you'll see my logic there as we come to further down what I'd like to talk about. You've criticized the church teachings about the atonement, stating that it bothers you that an act of atonement is even necessary. You've rejected the very basis of the atonement, claiming that punishing that guy over there for what I did doesn't make sense at all. You stated that you do not believe and actively teach against the concept of God restored his true church to the earth with exclusive priesthood authority. And this is a recent statement that you've made in the beliefs that you shared with me since prior to our last meeting, that his true church on the earth to the earth with exclusive priesthood authority through the prophet Joseph Smith. You stated that the LDS restoration is not a credible narrative and that you've declared that you are repulsed by the teaching of one true church and would rather roll around in some text than ever teach or support this notion. Do you have sources you can. They are direct quotes.

John Dehlin [00:12:21] No, but do you have the sources I can give?

Guest 8 [00:12:23] The sources are yours to refute. These come from your podcast or your Facebook or your Internet.

John Dehlin [00:12:32] You didn't collect them.

Guest 8 [00:12:33] Some of them were shared with me.

John Dehlin [00:12:34] So you don't know if they actually come from my podcast. You just know that someone's given them you and claim that they come from.

Guest 8 [00:12:41] You can argue the semantics.

John Dehlin [00:12:43] No, no, I'm not arguing semantics. Semantics would be arguing over what word choice we use. I'm asking you if you have confidence in the sources.

Guest 8 [00:12:52] I do. I have 100% confidence in the sources.

John Dehlin [00:12:54] But you haven't actually seen.

Guest 8 [00:12:56] I have seen these sources. I do not know the referencing points. I do know the. And I didn't include this as source. This is not a debate in theology. It's not a debate in sources. These are things that you've said. You teach that the Book of Mormon is a 19th century work of fiction. You contend that the church governance is no longer about doctrine or revelation. Instead, it's about power and money. You've also been critical of senior church leaders, stating that they are hastening the church's demise. And that's Elder Oaks specifically. And I've read that recently you become an ordained minister in another faith so that you can perform wedding ceremonies. I do not believe that these are in harmony with the Gospel of Jesus Christ or the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. These are the things that I'm asking you to do, and I think this is fair. Fair is the wrong word. These are the things I'm asking you to do. Publicly renounce and apologize for the false concepts you've widely expressed regarding God, Jesus Christ and the Atonement, the restoration of the Gospel and the Book of Mormon. Cease providing a public forum for any person who is critical of the church or doctrine. Stop promoting groups or organizations that expound doctrines contrary to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Resign your status as an ordained minister in another faith. I acknowledge the fact that you have the right to speak openly and that I'm not trying to stop you from saying the things that you want to say. But I also need you to know that you do not have that right to say these things and remain a member in good standard. I think where we go from here is simply that I would like to. I am placing you on informal probation. And I'm not sure if you understand exactly what that means.

John Dehlin [00:15:13] Go ahead.

Guest 8 [00:15:14] Okay. Informal probation is that. It's informal probation. It's the opportunity where we come to a crossroads. And where you decide to go from this point is up to you. These are the things that I've asked you to do. These are the things that I have laid out that I think are straightforward. And where you choose to go determines where we go after informal probation. Informal probation can be as simple as the fact that you and I know it's not publicly disseminated, that this is the position that you're in. It doesn't take away your opportunity to partake of the sacrament. It may take away your opportunity to serve in church callings. Until that's resolved, it's much different than any kind of formal probation or which I cannot put you on because I believe that the position that we're in is that if informal probation does not work, then the next thing we would do is go to a church disciplinary council. So I want you to know that I've taken this matter seriously and I've prayed about it and I feel comfortable with what I've decided and the inspiration that I received to come to this crossroads. And the next step is that I stand ready to help you in any way possible in whatever decision that you make, in whatever direction you choose to go. And also reassure you, as I've reassured you before in the past, that there is no withdrawal of love or support from members of your family for your spouse, for your father, or for any other individual. And I'd be happy to share this with you.

John Dehlin [00:17:10] Okay.

Guest 8 [00:17:12] I'm sure you have thoughts and ideas or questions.

John Dehlin [00:17:22] Some of the, Some of that I probably. Some of that definitely reflects doubts or concerns that I have. I think those things are well founded and well based. And I guess I would expect at least, you know, an invitation to talk about things.

Guest 8 [00:17:49] You know, I'll share this with you too as well. Part of the preparation of this is speaking with your previous priesthood leaders. I cannot tell you of a more patient, long suffering individual than President Jensen. And the two of us sat in this room, knelt in prayer and prayed about you together to try to Determine which direction we should go and what we should do. I will tell you. The answer that came is that I looked at him and said, I'm not sure that I would have as much patience as you had to spend the extensive period of time working with Brother Dolan like you had. And he shared with me the same, a different thought. He said, I'm not so sure that I would have the courage to confront Brother Dolan about the things that he has said. And so I extend you the invitation to continue to talk about these things. But I don't know that that would be something that would be very prolonged, I think depending on your heart, where you want to go. I would be happy to accommodate the visits and visit with you.

Guest [00:19:07] Would you need to see movement on those requests that you have as an initial step, though?

Guest 8 [00:19:13] I think that's fair.

John Dehlin [00:19:17] Okay. So I think some of those matters reflect genuine concerns that I have. I think some of them reflect things may be taken out of context, and some of them reflect things that I may have written in the past, past that are angry or hurtful.

Guest 8 [00:19:40] And I'll share with that. And I acknowledge that to you, I think that they may things that you've been have said in the past, and your mind may have changed, your heart may have changed, but at some point you need to acknowledge the fact that you said those and renounce those. Because the Internet is an interesting, interesting creature. You and I both grew up in an opportunity when we used to have to write a report by going to the library and checking out the encyclopedia. The Internet is full of truths or untruths. You know that.

John Dehlin [00:20:17] And the positive things I've said about the church, the good things I've said, the things that are in harmony with the church. I'm curious why that isn't reflected in anything you've offered.

Guest 8 [00:20:28] Unfortunately, at the end of the day, sometimes we're only remembered for the things that we do. I mean, the reality of this matter is, is that if I go onto your website and follow you on Mormon podcast or Facebook, I see opportunities where things that I find most sacred are discussed. Well. And for instance, your recent post about not posting your interview with Tom Phillips, but yet at the same time providing the link so that anybody that would follow you could easily go there. It's much like me telling a someone, don't open that door, but here's the door, here's the key.

John Dehlin [00:21:10] I don't know whether that has to do with the positive things I've said or done.

Guest 8 [00:21:14] Well, the positive things are positive I appreciate those, but I can say a lot of positive things. But you have said a lot of negative things about the church that we all are accountable for. At the end of the day, we're accountable for everything we say, positive and negative. And there isn't a balance that says if I say five more positive things, I can say four bad things. There is no check and balance or positive balance like that.

Public Dissent, Doctrine, and Same-Sex Marriage

John Dehlin [00:21:52] Well, I'd at least appreciate the chance to talk about the issues you list there. You want to do it real quick?

Guest 8 [00:21:59] Sure. We talked a little bit about last time.

John Dehlin [00:22:01] Can I have the letter?

Guest 8 [00:22:03] Sure. Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:22:16] Yeah. Regarding God. I hope there's a God. I want there to be an afterlife. I felt power and influence in my life before that's motivated me.

Guest [00:22:45] And

John Dehlin [00:22:49] I consider myself a believer in God. But this does reflect doubts that I've had about God. And that's why I think it's a little bit taken out of context. Because if you. I'm not asking you to respond. Do you mind if I just share?

Guest 8 [00:23:05] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:23:05] Since these are kind of accusations. Go ahead. So I don't. I don't think anybody really knows if God exists. I think that people have feelings and emotions and they choose to. They choose to describe their perspectives as knowledge. But that's semantics because I don't think anybody really knows. So is that grounds for excommunication?

Guest 8 [00:23:38] I haven't mentioned that.

John Dehlin [00:23:39] Is that grounds for disciplinary council?

Guest [00:23:42] No.

John Dehlin [00:23:43] So we're okay on that one.

Guest 8 [00:23:45] We all work in our testimony and belief that there is a God. And I believe that people have different levels of faith. But I think it's another thing. In your position. And I'll be straightforward. I think you play that to people as an opportunity to draw them in, to reinforce their doubts as well.

John Dehlin [00:24:02] Play what?

Guest 8 [00:24:03] Your doubts about God.

John Dehlin [00:24:05] I play my doubts.

Guest 8 [00:24:06] Will you give other people the opportunity to feel more comfortable that they doubt because you doubt?

John Dehlin [00:24:13] Are you saying I'm doing that on purpose?

Guest 8 [00:24:14] I'm not going to get into semantics and I'm not going to argue and I'm not going to debate semantics because my experience in visiting with you is always trying to ask me to say something that you will. At some point or another. I believe. Misquote me.

John Dehlin [00:24:38] Have I misquoted you so far?

Guest 8 [00:24:40] No. But I still have that belief.

John Dehlin [00:24:43] You have that fear.

Guest 8 [00:24:44] I do.

Guest [00:24:46] I think part of the nature of this too is that the church is filled with all levels of faith and testimony of individuals. And you're well aware of that. There's a public nature to this of expressing your doubts publicly, that causes other people to have doubts and to question it far beyond perhaps what they normally would have and to seek avenues that are different than the church would hope and recommend. Meaning going to the Lord in prayer, going to their bishop or priest or leader to seek guidance and direction with their doubts versus having those publicly proclaimed

John Dehlin [00:25:21] through the world of.

Guest [00:25:22] Well, here are my doubts. I am a member. Those are incompatible as a member of the church. Church also publicly expressing doubts that also encourage other people to have those doubts and to nurture those doubts versus to nurture faith. As I read that or listen to that, that's where my perception of it is, that there's this public nature to it. But members have all these different ones, just like you. There are other members like you who have those same doubts. Their membership will not be in question.

John Dehlin [00:25:51] So you can have doubts, you just can't speak publicly. Is that right?

Guest [00:25:56] In those forms that you've got there? Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:00] Do you agree?

Guest 8 [00:26:01] I think again, that's a slippery slope because then you'll take me for my word, and then. That's not necessarily what I mean.

John Dehlin [00:26:07] So what do you mean?

Guest 8 [00:26:07] I mean that there are several people that struggle with uncertainty, that people don't know. I worry that as they come to you and look at your websites, that why they feel akin in your spirit about doubting. I worry that they become comfortable with the things that you share, and then if it's in another podcast, you move to another extreme and allow them to question their testimony about the prophet Joseph Smith. So I think that there is a part of this that brings them in closer. They feel comfortable, and then at the same time, you share something that you believe, and I don't like that. And I don't feel comfortable with that.

John Dehlin [00:26:47] Okay, but you've expressed that you guys don't like the public expression of doubt.

Guest 8 [00:26:53] No, it's okay. Well, not true. Everybody has doubts.

John Dehlin [00:26:59] I'm talking about the public expression of doubt.

Guest 8 [00:27:01] You can publicly express you have a doubt. You can. You can.

John Dehlin [00:27:05] Okay.

Guest 8 [00:27:12] The problem comes that I have is when other people come to you or align themselves with you, and then they become more comfortable in their doubts. Because you have doubts,

John Dehlin [00:27:26] which I have no control over.

Guest 8 [00:27:28] Well, you do in the sense you express them publicly.

John Dehlin [00:27:32] So it is about expressing doubts publicly.

Guest 8 [00:27:35] It's a circular argument.

John Dehlin [00:27:36] Okay, so. As far as the resurrection, you know, I believe in and try to live the teachings of Christ as it relates to charity and love and kindness, and

Guest 8 [00:27:58] that's what you expressed last time we visited.

John Dehlin [00:28:01] I think it's a matter of faith about resurrection in the afterlife. It does bother me that. It does bother me that an all powerful, all knowing God couldn't have come up with a different plan to make things right than to have to torture and punish somebody. That does bother me. It just feels like violent and feels like there's got to be a better way. Again, I put the atonement into something that none of us know for sure about. So, and from my perspective, we're all speculating about that. But that is true. That bothers me. Is that grounds in your mind?

Guest 8 [00:29:05] These are personal expressions and personal things that you have. Those are not grounds that I have to take any churches for an action against you. We're missing the vote. You have a flock of Internet followers.

John Dehlin [00:29:19] I don't think we're missing the boat if we talk about these things.

Guest 8 [00:29:22] Well, it seems like you're asking me to say what you're doing is okay. And I'm not saying that what you're doing is okay. If you came to me irrespective of Mormon studies or whatever you've posted and said present king, I'm struggling with my faith, then I would say to you this is a personal issue. I'm not saying you can't visit with your wife around that your friends, people that are important to you. But I don't believe in taking this to the world.

John Dehlin [00:29:55] So the problem is speaking openly about my doubts and concerns.

Guest 8 [00:30:01] It's more about again, providing a forum for other people to come to participate in the discussion about their doubts and concerns.

John Dehlin [00:30:11] But I also have people come on and talk about the faith and their belief.

Guest 8 [00:30:16] You do. And at the same time, I'm not so sure that I, the nature and individuals that come on are not the nature and individuals people that I commonly would go to to reaffirm and strengthen my testimony.

John Dehlin [00:30:31] Okay, but Richard Bushman is a stake patriarch. Terrell Gibbons contracts with the church where

Guest [00:30:38] a long time ago as well.

John Dehlin [00:30:40] I'm interviewing Terrell Gibbons in like two weeks.

Guest [00:30:42] That's future.

John Dehlin [00:30:44] So what's your point? We weren't aware of your future ones.

Guest [00:30:47] I'm saying those people you mentioned there have been quite distant in the past. You may correct that here in two weeks. And great, we'll see what he says.

John Dehlin [00:31:01] But you didn't hesitate to pull quotes that were very distant in the past. Those seem to be relevant.

Guest 8 [00:31:06] Well, we can't see the future.

John Dehlin [00:31:07] Those seem to be relevant. I'm just saying I don't get credit for positive things I've done in the past. But you can take negative things I've done in the past and use them. Is that what you're saying?

Guest [00:31:21] You have a statement to that. But many of those things he's listed there are not that far in the past.

John Dehlin [00:31:27] No. Yeah, but there are positive things I've done in the past.

Guest 8 [00:31:30] But again, it's like I said before, it's not a five things here and four things there or five things and five things. It's the context and nature of the direction in which you go.

John Dehlin [00:32:03] Yeah, I don't love the teaching of one true church. That's true because I feel like it judges and subjugates other faith traditions that are honorable. So my perspective there is that we have important and special things, but other people do, too. And then to speak about us as true implies that they're false. And that's the narrative that I don't like. I'm okay with saying that our church is special, has good things and unique things, but the idea that although the churches are an abomination, that is repulsive to me. Calling other churches an abomination, thinking of them as an abomination, is that a problem?

Guest 8 [00:33:02] You know, here's. Let me just summarize something in the direction we're going, and maybe this answers your problem, your questions, and not, I think our paths are different.

John Dehlin [00:33:10] Why won't you give me the respect of letting me answer the. Well, because it's like you're impatient.

Guest 8 [00:33:17] I'm not impatient.

John Dehlin [00:33:20] Yeah, you're cutting me off.

Guest 8 [00:33:23] Go ahead and finish that.

John Dehlin [00:33:26] This is the dialogue it should be. It's the second time we've ever met. You've got these charges against me. I'm trying to explain my perspective. You seem like you want to pull a trigger.

Guest 8 [00:33:38] That's not what the letter says.

John Dehlin [00:33:40] That's how you're acting.

Guest 8 [00:33:41] That's not what the letter says.

John Dehlin [00:33:42] Okay. So do you have a problem with what I just expressed about the one true church?

Guest 8 [00:33:49] Yes, I do. Because our doctrinal beliefs are different. I believe there is one true church.

John Dehlin [00:33:56] So do you believe that all the other churches are an abomination like the Doctrine and Covenant says?

Guest 8 [00:34:02] I believe that we have one true church. I believe that the abomination comes in the sense that they don't have the full truth. That's why we do missionary work. That's why I don't think we have

John Dehlin [00:34:14] the full truth, which is why we need continuing revelation.

Guest 8 [00:34:16] Then this is why we are having this kind of discussion. Because my thought, that keeps coming back to me honestly, is why you Keep thinking I'm pulling the trigger. I keep saying, why are you fighting to become a member of the Church when you're fighting so hard to not believe in the Church?

John Dehlin [00:34:33] I want to really understand why you are taking these actions. I want to understand exactly what I've done wrong.

Guest 8 [00:34:41] It's clearly stated in the letter.

John Dehlin [00:34:44] No, it's not clear to me, but it's sad to me that you're not willing to at least spend an hour talking about it.

Guest 8 [00:34:54] I have not put a time frame on our discussion this evening, but you're interrupting me.

John Dehlin [00:34:58] And you're showing a desire to shortchange the discussion. And you're not speaking in Goodwill. Nothing like President Jensen.

Guest 8 [00:35:08] Well, we're different. And he and I both acknowledge that. And you know what? It's interesting because one of the concepts that you maintain to understand, Brother Dolan, is that the Lord administrates his church through imperfect people.

John Dehlin [00:35:20] You don't need to watch your meal. I'm well aware. But I don't think you're acting Christlike right now.

Guest 8 [00:35:32] That's your opinion.

John Dehlin [00:35:34] I'm just thinking about the Doctrine and Covenants.

Guest 8 [00:35:37] It's your opinion.

John Dehlin [00:35:39] Long suffering. Think you're being long suffering.

Guest 8 [00:35:44] It's your opinion.

John Dehlin [00:35:45] No, I'm asking you what you think.

Guest 8 [00:35:46] I think I am.

John Dehlin [00:35:47] Okay.

Guest 8 [00:35:49] I think I am. I think it our. I think I have tried everything I can to prayerfully consider this, to come up with a heartfelt to you. You don't know what draft this is of this letter and how many times I've sat down and said, no, I can't say that, or I need to say that. So long surfering. Yes, but. Because while it may not be in how you perceive it, it's in how I perceive it.

Guest [00:36:19] I think the Church has been long suffering. Well, the administration changes from time to time, as is the way the Church does things as a whole. As the representatives of the Church. I think there's been a lot of long suffering because there's been a long period of time that this has transpired. President Jensen was very long suffering. And this is just a continuation.

John Dehlin [00:36:38] You're saying the Church has been long

Guest [00:36:40] suffering with me, as these stake presidents are the representatives of the Church?

Guest 8 [00:36:46] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:36:58] Are you aware of the problems of the Book of Mormon in terms of its history?

Guest 8 [00:37:02] I've read your articles.

John Dehlin [00:37:05] I don't think I've written an article on the histories.

Guest 8 [00:37:07] I read what you published and what you asked me to read before he visited last time.

John Dehlin [00:37:11] But are you aware of the historicity problems of the Book of Mormon?

Guest 8 [00:37:16] I'm familiar with them. I have a testimony of the Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:37:21] Right, but are you aware of the historical problems with it?

Guest 8 [00:37:24] Yes. As I shared with you before, I was reading literature against the Book of Mormon long before our association ever came, and I'm comfortable with the positions and the statements that I've had in the past. I'm comfortable and I have a testimony that is the word of God.

Guest [00:37:45] Right.

John Dehlin [00:37:50] And do you understand why someone would struggle with the historicity of Gomorrah?

Guest 8 [00:37:58] Yes, I do.

John Dehlin [00:38:00] Do you have any sympathies or empathies for that position?

Guest 8 [00:38:03] I do, in the sense that I would hope that they would try to gain a stronger association or testimony of that.

John Dehlin [00:38:10] That's not sympathy or empathy with the position. That's a desire for them to change their position. But do you have any empathy or sympathy for people who feel like there are serious historical problems with the Book of Mormon?

Guest 8 [00:38:26] I do. Because if I don't say that I do, then you'll say that I'm not.

John Dehlin [00:38:30] So that's why you're giving.

Guest 8 [00:38:33] No, but I just. Every discussion that we have and every question that you ask me, I'm trying to carefully choose my words so that you understand how I feel. I feel in the position that I am, that as a stake president, that we're discussing these things, and I feel a responsibility as a stake president to protect the good name of the church.

John Dehlin [00:39:03] So you're not telling me how you feel. You're telling me what you think you should say as a state president.

Guest 8 [00:39:09] I'm telling you how I feel as a stake president. And I hope that those are two. The two things are in harmony with my own personal beliefs.

John Dehlin [00:39:19] Okay, so you don't want to answer that question?

Guest 8 [00:39:21] I don't know how to answer that question.

John Dehlin [00:39:29] I'm trying to get a sense for whether you even understand the concerns that people have about the Book of Mormon and why they would die.

Guest 8 [00:39:35] I do. Because many people don't believe it's true.

John Dehlin [00:39:38] Do you understand why?

Guest 8 [00:39:39] Yes. Because of DNA evidence. Because of episodes where certain things are talked about in the Book of Mormon, as far as swords and horses and other things like that. I understand.

John Dehlin [00:39:50] How do you make sense of that?

Guest 8 [00:39:53] Because as I read the Book of Mormon, I have an overwhelming comfort with how I feel. And that's the difference. That's what I can't explain, and maybe that's what I'm going to share with you, is I can't necessarily explain all the things that you're concerned about, but I can explain how I feel when I read that and how I feel when I apply the principles of the Book of Mormon to my life.

John Dehlin [00:40:22] But do you believe that Native Americans had horses before Columbus came? Do you believe that they had steel swords?

Guest 8 [00:40:28] You know, I don't want to get into discussion. I'm just asking.

John Dehlin [00:40:32] That's not theology, that's history.

Guest 8 [00:40:36] I believe in the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:40:38] Right, but what about the historicity?

Guest 8 [00:40:39] If it says it's in the Book of Mormon, I believe it.

John Dehlin [00:40:42] So you believe there were horses before?

Guest 8 [00:40:44] I believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

John Dehlin [00:40:48] So there were horses.

Guest 8 [00:40:50] I believe the Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:40:51] You don't want to answer the question?

Guest 8 [00:40:52] I want to just tell you that I believe the Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:40:55] You don't have to keep repeating that. But my problem isn't with your feelings. My problem is trying to understand what to do with the historical anachronisms in the book. So it says steel swords. We know that ancient Americans didn't have the ability to develop steel and then no steel sword has ever been found. So that there's a credible reason for someone to have pause about the Book of Mormon. We know that Spaniards brought horses over, so Native Americans couldn't have used horses. That's a legitimate concern people have. Right.

Guest 8 [00:41:28] Brother Delynn? We just are going in different directions. We are just headed in a different direction. I believe that there is one true church and I believe the Book of Mormon to be the truth.

John Dehlin [00:41:42] I'm seeing if you understand why people have concern.

Guest 8 [00:41:45] I feel like you're questioning about whether or not I'm intelligent enough.

John Dehlin [00:41:48] No, I don't. I know you're intelligent. I'm asking you whether you have any empathy and understanding for people in my position.

Guest 8 [00:41:57] I do.

John Dehlin [00:42:00] Based on the concerns I'm voicing, it

Guest 8 [00:42:04] really isn't about your personal beliefs. It's about the method by which you portray these personal beliefs. And that's what I keep coming back.

John Dehlin [00:42:10] I speak openly about my doubts.

Guest 8 [00:42:12] And you speak openly about your doubts with the church, which creates a forum. And I'll talk a little bit about that formula because as I've watched that happen, I've watched people come on who repetitively come on who comment on a regular basis. I've seen out of coincidence people that come onto your Facebook page and comment, go onto other church websites and make comments that would draw them to your website full welling. No. And I know you say that you have no responsibility for that, but that's what happens. You've opened the playground for those individuals to plan and that is where I come from as the stake president is because of your openness to express these and actually bring these individuals together. That I believe many of those individuals turn to you before they turn to their church leaders.

John Dehlin [00:43:22] Is it a problem with a member if they believe that people who people of the same sex should be married?

Guest 8 [00:43:36] That's a personal decision of those individuals. That's a personal thing for them to express or feel

John Dehlin [00:43:47] so one can be in good standing in the church and support gay marriage.

Guest 8 [00:43:52] I think that that's pretty clear. I think the church leaders have said that how you feel about that is your own personal decision. How you public express those feelings about those. The counsel is to stay in harmony with the teachings of the church.

John Dehlin [00:44:11] So if I speak openly about my support of same sex marriage then that's a problem.

Guest 8 [00:44:18] Again it recruits a group.

John Dehlin [00:44:21] So yes, yes. So it's out of harmony with the church to be be publicly vocally supportive of same sex marriage.

Guest 8 [00:44:32] Identifying yourself as a member of the church that you can do anything you want as a member of the church. As a result of that, as I shared with you, one of the issues is that as you those individuals and groups are part of teachings and doctrines that are not in harmony with the teachings of the Church. So if you come out openly in support of that, that is a problem.

Guest [00:44:58] Okay, that's not why we're discussion but

John Dehlin [00:45:03] I'm telling you right now that I am obviously in support of same sex marriage.

Guest 8 [00:45:07] Right, but that's not what I've mentioned in my letter.

John Dehlin [00:45:09] But you're telling me now it's a problem.

Guest 8 [00:45:11] This is what I'd like to focus on in your letter.

John Dehlin [00:45:13] But you just told me that's a problem. True, true. I'm happy that I filled out a form on a piece of paper because a friend asked me if I would perform a wedding ceremony. If that's a problem, I'm happy to. I'm happy to resign from that. That's not a problem. I just did that as a favor and I didn't even end up performing the wedding. So. So if that's a concern I'm happy with.

Guest 8 [00:45:48] Well again and let me just speak openly too. It's a concern to me how easily you could do that and not think that it would be something contrary to the priesthood that you hold or something that wouldn't discredit that priesthood by joining another church just simply for the fact that you can. You know, to me that speaks to the symptom of the fact that you

John Dehlin [00:46:15] don't value the priesthood, that's your interpretation. But I can see why. Why didn't you mention my support of same sex marriage?

Guest 8 [00:46:25] Because this is the direction that I felt to go.

John Dehlin [00:46:27] Okay. Okay. Okay. So I'm happy and I've done this. I think, I mean, I think what I wrote in my letter to you, in my Q and A that I sent you, I think that most accurately reflects my current feelings and thoughts. It's curious that none of that, you didn't pull any of that from. You used up from years ago, sometimes 10 years ago.

Guest 8 [00:47:03] Well, in my thoughts in relationship to that is those things are set. Those things exist. So as I googled what I chose to exist or to look at, that's what I came across. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:47:16] Is there anything in what I wrote in that Q and A that grounds?

Guest 8 [00:47:20] Well, you talk about the Book of Mormon. You talk about the divinity of.

John Dehlin [00:47:24] My doubts about it.

Guest 8 [00:47:25] The prophet Joseph Smith. You also talk about living prophets, whether or not there can be one true living prophet. Those are fundamental beliefs of the church. Those are basic missionary interview questions when people come to join the church.

John Dehlin [00:47:52] Have you also heard that President Monson has dementia? Have you ever heard that?

Guest 8 [00:47:56] I have. I've seen it on your website.

John Dehlin [00:47:58] But have you heard it?

Guest 8 [00:47:59] I have heard that. From any other source.

John Dehlin [00:48:03] You've never heard that?

Guest 8 [00:48:04] I haven't. I've seen it on your website and our associated other websites.

John Dehlin [00:48:14] Okay. Well, just in response to your requests, some happy to write out very clearly what my beliefs are and aren't. I think I've done that for the most part. If you want clarification, I think.

Guest 8 [00:48:31] I think you clarified it before. What I'm basically asking you. And the things that I'm asking you to do is stop producing this public forum that brings people in, reinforces their doubts, leads them to question their testimony. The Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:48:46] So take down Mormon stories.

Guest 8 [00:48:48] No.

John Dehlin [00:48:49] So I can leave it up?

Guest 8 [00:48:50] As long as you stay. I didn't ask you to take it down.

John Dehlin [00:48:53] What does it mean, providing a public forum?

Guest 8 [00:48:55] Well, Facebook posts.

John Dehlin [00:48:58] So don't make Facebook posts about the church or about.

Guest 8 [00:49:01] Or even in Mormon stories, too. I'm not. It's your. I'm not. How can I best say this? You are free to speak your mind, but as the consequence of speaking your mind, there may. There are church responsibilities that I may have.

John Dehlin [00:49:15] So what? I just want to know what you mean. That's all I'm asking. When you say cease providing a public forum. If I left Mormon stories up,

Guest 8 [00:49:23] you can change direction of Mormon stories in whatever direction you want to change. I would like to see Mormon stories be more faithful.

John Dehlin [00:49:31] Okay. So it's not take down the things I've done. It's in the future, be constructive and positive.

Guest 8 [00:49:39] I think that's a fair thing to say.

Guest [00:49:41] To the degree you make those changes, I think is a reflection on where your heart is in sincerity to your faith.

John Dehlin [00:49:48] So I can leave everything in the past that I've done?

Guest 8 [00:49:52] No, I think what I'm asking you to do in the letter is the things that you have done that have raised doubts and concerns, the statements you've made that have been critical about church leaders, about Elder Oaks, about other individuals, those are the things that you need to have responsibility for. Okay,

John Dehlin [00:50:17] so if I've criticized Elder Oaks, remove that.

Guest 8 [00:50:22] I would acknowledge the fact that you criticize Elder Oaks and then remove that.

John Dehlin [00:50:29] Other examples because I. I've done so much. It's. I just.

Guest 8 [00:50:32] Well, I can't go through and go through all those

John Dehlin [00:50:36] if you're asking me to make restitution. I want to understand what you mean.

Guest 8 [00:50:40] Well, I think it's pretty. I'm sure you know where you stand. You could go back and just look at your, you know, your numerous Mormon podcast and know the ones that you think are controversial or not.

John Dehlin [00:50:51] So take down any controversial episode.

Guest 8 [00:50:56] Um, yes, that would be the thing to do.

John Dehlin [00:51:00] Is that what you mean?

Guest 8 [00:51:02] Well, I don't want to appear in any form or print saying that. That's exactly what I said. Because I would like you to move your personal testimony in line with us being able to resolve your questioning God, your questioning, your testimony of the Savior Jesus Christ. I would like you to move in a direction that you felt that the Book of Mormon was the word of God. If you can't let go of those things, Then that's your personal decision.

John Dehlin [00:51:44] Okay, so. So I guess we would have to deal with the past stuff on a case by case basis because there's so much I could do. My best faith effort at taking stuff down. But there could be more.

Guest [00:52:01] Or.

John Dehlin [00:52:02] I mean. Okay, let me just tell you a problem. Okay? I'm being honest. I'm being very sincere here. Okay? People have left the church over Richard Bushman's rough stone roller. Okay? It was sold and it continues to be sold by Desiree Book. More people may have left the church over rough stone rolling than Mormon stories. Okay? So if a book written by a patriarch and a former stake president is causing people to leave, if the church's own essays. I know Dozens and dozens of people who, when they read the Church's recently published essays, those were the things that sort of. They would say I was doing fine. Then I read this essay about. About race in the priesthood, and it basically said that the past leaders misspoke on those issues and that caused them a problem. Right. My point is that by. By that standard, anything could cause someone to doubt their faith. Even a book written by someone who believes in Joseph Smith and who supports him. Do you understand the concern I have?

Guest 8 [00:53:16] I think as you. Change of heart, if that's your decision or change of desire to answer these doubts in your heart, I think a natural fruit of that is that the context of the things that you write and publish would change accordingly and not go back to these fundamental things that you keep going back to that you've shared recently in the most recent letter you shared with me.

John Dehlin [00:53:52] Okay, so it's talking about the Church's truth claims that a problem?

Guest 8 [00:53:57] It is. It's talking about them and at the same time understanding that there are responsibilities of being a disciple of the church or being a member of the Church.

John Dehlin [00:54:17] Okay. Okay.

Guest 8 [00:54:20] And the Church, again, is a voluntary membership with certain responsibilities with church, Handbook of Instruction, with expectations. And it's a voluntary organization.

John Dehlin [00:54:38] What do you mean by stop promoting groups or organizations that espouse doctrines? What groups or organizations are.

Guest 8 [00:54:44] I think that's inherent. You know, those. Those that would be supportive of ordained women.

John Dehlin [00:54:50] Okay, I don't know that until you tell me. That's insulting for you to assume that I know what you mean. I did not know what you mean. I asked you because I did not understand it.

Guest 8 [00:55:01] I've explained that to you now.

John Dehlin [00:55:03] Okay, so that's ordained women. Is it anything else?

Guest 8 [00:55:07] That's the one that I can think of that would be most important because

John Dehlin [00:55:10] it says groups or organizations, plural. You mean ordained women.

Guest [00:55:14] There.

Guest 8 [00:55:14] That's one, I would think that comes to my mind.

John Dehlin [00:55:16] So stop like expressing support for Daemon.

Guest 8 [00:55:23] Yes, okay.

John Dehlin [00:55:27] And I'm happy to resign. Do you have feelings or reactions you want to share or thoughts?

Guest 8 [00:55:57] I don't want this to be an adversarial relationship.

John Dehlin [00:56:02] I don't either.

Guest 8 [00:56:03] I don't. In fact, that's interesting. That's probably one of the things that I prayed most about and I've tried not to be that way.

John Dehlin [00:56:12] I'm sorry.

Guest 8 [00:56:13] When I've gotten here, I'm human. You're human.

John Dehlin [00:56:21] Absolutely. So philosophically, here's. So do I feel like I love the church? I do. Do I feel like I want a disciplinary Council. I don't. Would we be here if in February Bishop King hadn't, or Bishop Hunt hadn't called me a wolf in sheep's clothing? We were active. Our kids were serving in their presidencies. We were working very hard to be committed members. I'm not going to lie. I do feel like the church's stance on people of same sex attraction leads to suicides. And I don't feel like the church's culture is as supportive as it needs to be. And when I've criticized Elder Oaks, it's been because I felt like he gave talks that could lead to more suicides. Just so you understand that. That's just. I hope you can understand that if the church can release an essay saying Bruce R. McConkie was wrong about his beliefs on blacks or Joseph Felix Smith, which they did. And would you agree that Bruce Armaconki and Joseph Felix Smith were wrong in their doctrinal statements about blacks being less valiant?

Guest 8 [00:57:53] Well, the church's doctrine has changed since theirs.

John Dehlin [00:57:56] So they were wrong. Doctrine doesn't change.

Guest 8 [00:57:58] Right.

John Dehlin [00:57:59] Well, what they said is that those people spoke in error. That's what the church has said. You don't want to say that they made a mistake?

Guest 8 [00:58:08] No, I don't. I'll support the church's doctrine for the church's.

John Dehlin [00:58:12] It says that they spoke in error.

Guest 8 [00:58:13] Well, then I would fall in the same guidelines that the church.

John Dehlin [00:58:16] And I just want you to know as my priesthood leader that I honestly do believe that in 30 or 40 years we're going to have the same type of thing happen where past statements about gays and lesbians are going to be reversed. So it is a matter of conscience that I. That I. And it's based on my clinical time spent with these people. Those are where my siblings come from.

Guest 8 [00:58:51] And they may also not happen.

John Dehlin [00:58:54] Right, right. So it's just me listening.

Guest 8 [00:58:57] That is your own personal feelings, just

John Dehlin [00:58:59] like you're basing everything you're doing here on your personal feelings. That's all any of us have. So I'm just letting you know that when I've criticized the Brethren, it's usually been over that issue.

Guest 8 [00:59:23] There are things that I read that include about tithing and City Creek and other things like that.

John Dehlin [00:59:28] I definitely have wondered whether Christ would build a commercial shopping mall. That's true. And I don't think I'm the only one who's wondered that. And that's based on my reading in the Book of Mormon in the Bible. I just don't know that's how I think he would feed the naked and feed the hungry, clothe the naked. My reading of Christ is that he was against materialism, conspicuous consumption of wealth. That's based on my reading of the Scriptures. So I guess reasonable people could disagree. I don't know. But anyway, so as someone who works in the mental health field, what I've experienced is that one of our biggest problems as a church is that we're uncomfortable talking about difficult things sometimes. And I personally believe that the church has been more willing to talk about these difficult things because people have been willing to raise the issues vocally and publicly. And I think that's led to positive results. I think that when we suppress, it feels like what you're saying is you can have doubts and fears and questions, but don't be public about them. And I just want to say that from my experience as a mental health professional, when people hide or suppress or keep quiet their doubts and fears, it often will leads to really unhealthy results. And so the whole premise behind Mormon Stories has been to try and discuss the positive and the negative aspects of the church. And I think I've done both.

Guest [01:01:41] And.

John Dehlin [01:01:49] So I am absolutely willing to receive your counsel about tone.

Guest 8 [01:01:59] Well, this is the interesting thing about that. I've been thinking about this and trying to come up with something I think that best reflects what I think. I think without me telling, I've given you parameters or ideas or thoughts or constraints or suggestions, however we choose to use those. I think it's a personal decision for you as to how you change your tone without me saying to you it's appropriate for you to do this, for you to do this. I think that's a personal, personal decision that you make. And that's something that I. I may be able to hear your thoughts, but I cannot take you by the hand and say to you this person's appropriate to interview. This person isn't. You need to have hopefully in your heart a filter that will allow you to determine what is right. So in that case, I can't tell you who's appropriate and who's not appropriate.

John Dehlin [01:03:06] Did I ask you to tell me?

Guest 8 [01:03:08] No.

John Dehlin [01:03:08] Okay.

Guest 8 [01:03:09] But I just said it. As a matter of fact.

John Dehlin [01:03:10] I appreciate it. So I appreciate that. And all I'm saying is that I'm just trying to figure out, you know, if as. As beautiful of a man as President Jensen was, he was not able to help with kind of most of the underlying concerns, he could do what you did, basically, which is to say, this is what I feel the problem with that is the Pope feels what the Pope feels and Baptists feel what they feel and Muslims feel what they feel. And feelings sometimes can lead. When Bruce McConkie said the things about blacks and into pre existence, he felt like that was right for him. And so everybody is trying to base their religious positions on feelings. But I think evidence is important too. I don't think that evidence should be the only thing that's important, but I think that feelings also should not be the only things that are important.

Guest 8 [01:04:25] Important, but I don't think at the end of the day that evidence will be the thing that will bring you salvation. And at some point we all make a leap of faith. You're a mental health professional, I'm a health professional. There are a lot of things that I know exactly if I do this, this will work. Yet I've seen many miracles in what I've done that I can't explain and I can't explain all the things and I look at the way things were taught and this is in support of what you just said. You know, in Medical School 30 years ago. We're getting more knowledge, but many people made a leap of faith before they gained that knowledge.

John Dehlin [01:05:06] Sometimes those work and sometimes they.

Guest 8 [01:05:08] Yeah, and that's a difference, I guess, that we have too is that I'm not as important about the. I have to know exactly about the swords in the Book of Mormon as I am about the feelings that I get when I read the stories that touch my heart, that help me personally in my life, that I feel bring me closer to God. Those are feelings, I acknowledge those. But they also in some respects go past feelings because they change an action and they form an individual. And that is the sole essence of my core and my beliefs. And. And I think as a result of that, it does me good.

John Dehlin [01:05:47] I'm sure it does. And I appreciate that. At the same time, you know, if all the religious leaders said the world was flat and the data showed that the world was round, even if they had really sincere feelings, and even if those really sincere feelings moved them to be kinder husbands and fathers, I would still want to go with the evidence if the earth was round. If that's actually true.

Guest 8 [01:06:21] I think you've said that before too.

John Dehlin [01:06:23] Yeah, so. So I'm just giving you my reaction, which is that I. So I can tell you one thing for sure. I won't be being silent about my support for same sex marriage like that. That's going to be a no, probably just because that's what my conscience and whatever Inspiration I'm able to receive tells me is the right thing. Is that a problem?

Guest 8 [01:07:00] You know, I can't answer that right now. I don't know the answer to that. Because at the end of the day, the church has a specific stance on that or opinions, or not opinions, but a belief. There's websites for that that the church has put out, some that I was not aware of, honestly, until a member of our stake expressed that to me.

John Dehlin [01:07:19] The Mormons and gays website. You didn't know about that?

Guest 8 [01:07:22] I didn't. You know, there's a lot of things I don't know about.

John Dehlin [01:07:24] Oh, it's all right. I understand.

Guest 8 [01:07:26] And so I'm glad you've learned about it. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:31] So do you know that I just want to make sure you understand the Ordain Women website. Its position is that it is simply asking the brethren to pray to see if God will reveal to them that women should have the priesthood. You understand that, right?

Guest 8 [01:07:51] Well, I'm not sure. I haven't read the website.

John Dehlin [01:07:53] Yeah. I'm just saying it doesn't. So is it wrong to ask the brethren to pray? I'm not trying to play games here. That is exactly what they stand for. Is that wrong to have the position to ask the brethren to pray?

Guest 8 [01:08:06] I think it's wrong to protest or not protest, but to make public, to hold rallies to. When you're asked not to assemble and go to the tabernacle. I think when you're asked by your priesthood leaders not to do that, I think that's the wrong part about that. I think the letters come to the brethren and say, will you please pray about this? I think that's perfectly okay. When you organize and you march, you seek media attention. I think that's a different situation.

John Dehlin [01:08:40] Okay, so as far as me and ordaining women, is it that you don't want me marching or supporting those acts that. That are in.

Guest 8 [01:08:50] No, these are for you to go on your website and say, I support these things that I'm in support of,

John Dehlin [01:08:59] like the march or future actions. So don't support future actions. That would contradict what the. Well, it hasn't been the brother. It's in the PR department, but.

Guest 8 [01:09:12] Well, it's also very easy to. They don't act without input from the brother.

John Dehlin [01:09:18] I agree with that.

Guest 8 [01:09:20] So they don't represent the Church. They represent the Church's interesting experience now with dealing with Internet and with all the other things that are associated with our experience at this time of life. Again, I go back to the feeling, you know, And I feel most impressed, just to share with you, that I think that your tone and you've used that word before, or your spirit should direct where you should go.

John Dehlin [01:09:52] Yeah. Well, I'm going to talk to. We've been envisioning a change in direction for a long time because the truth Crane stuff is tired and worn. Did you see that the Brethren recently released an essay about the Book of Abraham?

Guest 8 [01:10:12] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:10:13] Did you read it?

Guest 8 [01:10:14] I did.

John Dehlin [01:10:16] So that's the type of thing that we've been troubled by.

Guest 8 [01:10:19] Right. But again, there's many members that aren't troubled by that.

John Dehlin [01:10:24] Yeah. Because they don't know about it.

Guest 8 [01:10:26] They still may know about it, but that's. I guess the differences I have is that. That there are faithful, intelligent people that know about that book and have read that essay and still have testimonies of the Gospel. I see there. This is my surgery.

Guest [01:10:45] I'm sorry.

John Dehlin [01:10:46] No, please don't ever apologize for drinking water. Well, it's coffee. We want you to. Thank you so much. Please drink all the water in the mix.

Guest 8 [01:10:57] We want you to.

John Dehlin [01:11:08] So. I understand that you're saying that there are faithful members who still know about.

Guest 8 [01:11:19] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:11:20] My only point to you is just to say that I was always taught that it was a translation. Joseph got the papyra and then made a translation of it. Been taught that since I was three. So when the Church comes out and says it's not a translation, probably

Guest [01:11:42] that

John Dehlin [01:11:42] actually the Papyrus Abraham, the word Abraham isn't even anywhere on the papyrus. And the Church acknowledges that, which they just did for the first time ever. That's not some silly, faithless concern. I've been taught a set of things by the Church for all my life. And now they're changing. They are.

Guest 8 [01:12:17] And

John Dehlin [01:12:20] what I feel like is that that deserves empathy and respect. And that if I have doubts and questions and I'm even vocal about it, it's because that's a real problem. Right. And those things are legitimate for you?

Guest 8 [01:12:37] They are.

John Dehlin [01:12:38] For most people who care about truth, those things are legitimate.

Guest 8 [01:12:44] Well, I think that characterizes people in two different groups, too. I think you represent a group that wants to know, but you have to also understand that they're a group of people that believe. I know.

John Dehlin [01:12:54] I know.

Guest [01:12:55] There's a gap. Like Noel Edge still here. There's a lot of papyrus, still missing book. Mormon Times. There's a lot of history with those

John Dehlin [01:13:04] people, but it's missing facsimiles. That joke Joseph put in that the Church puts with the Book of Abraham, that's the same facsimiles, they have nothing to do with Abraham.

Guest [01:13:16] There's a lot of. You can read all kinds of things on that. We're not here to discuss that tonight,

John Dehlin [01:13:21] but there's always going to be a gap. Facsimiles that are in the book of Abraham that have anything to do with

Guest [01:13:26] Abraham, and that's not uncommon in Egyptian writing. So there's a lot of things you can go with and you can study and you can learn on that. That that's not tonight's discussion. We're going to set aside time to talk about each of these. That's up to you there. But there's evidences that we have. There's a lot of things we do not have. You make that gap with faith. That's true. The feelings with prayer and things become revealed through time, through archaeology, through revelation, whatever it might be. There's always going to be that gap, and I think it's intentional. The Lord doesn't tell us every single thing, because part of this life is about exercising faith and making choices and deciding which path that we want to go down. There's a lot of these things. We don't have the answer now, and sometimes it's the faith that the answer will yet come. And we settle with that because there's a lot of things we don't know. You look at what the world discovers every year and the advancement. Those are things we didn't know 20, 50 years give me heartache. These things we learn, we go with it. Are there. Faith is an important principle in some of these things and how we address those things and express our doubts. You can express doubts with an effort to find answers and exercise faith. You can express doubts with a desire to tear down or expand doubt.

John Dehlin [01:14:48] Or you can express doubts because you really have legitimate concerns that the scientific evidence overwhelmingly support or is lacking.

Guest [01:14:58] There's a lot of different ways to look. Is it half full, half empty? For sure. But it's the way in that it's portrayed to the public. Is it increased doubt or does it say faith is required?

Guest 8 [01:15:13] I think the whole concept of religion is based upon it, requiring faith and things that are not seen.

John Dehlin [01:15:20] But does it require faith in things that are demonstrably false?

Guest 8 [01:15:25] Well, that's an opinion. And you know, I don't. You know, I'm not sure that I can explain the whole, what, Noah's ark departing of the red seas. But you know what? I don't struggle with that. And that doesn't make me any more naive about that. I just don't struggle. I look at the positive things that I believe and that I can explain. And that's just different. That's a different approach. And that is the nature of some individuals. And that may be the nature of your personality. While my nature, my personality may be different.

John Dehlin [01:16:02] When Allie Isom, the church's PR director, was interviewed on the radio, she said that it's okay to discuss open doubts. She said people do it all the time in soccer meeting and in our Sunday schools. They debate about ordained women, they ordain, they debate about same sex marriage. She said that the church welcomed that type of discussion.

Guest 8 [01:16:25] I think there's another paragraph though that she says, and I'm not sure I can quote it verbatim, but it was when individuals organize together in groups or try to find individuals to change church doctrine, that that's where the church takes exception with that. So that was the second part of what she said.

John Dehlin [01:16:46] I'm not trying to change church doctrine just for the record. I don't know one thing I would.

Guest 8 [01:16:57] You'd change the church's position on.

John Dehlin [01:16:59] I guess I would. I guess I'm not trying to get the church to change its position on same sex marriage, but I support same sex marriage. But that's probably semantic. Okay.

Guest 8 [01:17:20] This is difficult for both of us. I, I think you acknowledge that and I acknowledge that. I again go back to the fact that people have shared with me what good individuals that you are. And this is not a personal attack on you in any respect. It's more a discussion of what you say and what you believe. Well, and I know it's hard to separate that because I appreciate that.

John Dehlin [01:17:44] I'll just, I'll just summarize. I do think the truth matters

Guest 8 [01:17:55] and

John Dehlin [01:17:57] I do think that the church does a ton of good. And I would love to see the church succeed. But I feel like, I feel like these doubts and concerns that people have, there's, you know, you kind of said the glass is half full or half empty, right? If we were talking about, if it were 400 years ago and we were talking about the world being flat or the world being round, you know, maybe you could have said that then, but you can't really say that now. The issue, you know, you know, Galileo was a executed for opposing the church on his beliefs. That can contradict the church, right? Maybe back then the glass was half full or half empty, but evidence has pretty much shown that the world is round. You know, that's just true. And there are things that are just true. It's true that Joseph smith had over 30 wives. That's just true. And that some of them were married to other men. That's a fact. You know, in these Book of Abraham problems. It's not. They're just. That's a fact. And so maybe the reason I've become more angry and more frustrated is because I feel like I've been trying to get better answers and better answers haven't come. And instead of being shown empathy for the legitimate problems, it started to feel like harassment. But I don't think these problems are going to go away. And you know what? I think if you excommunicate me, I think you're going to draw more attention to the problems. But I'm not saying that to persuade you. I'm just telling you that.

Guest [01:20:03] That

John Dehlin [01:20:05] what I see as someone who loves truth and loves the church, but also loves people, is that the only way to deal with this is to take it on. Not to hide it, not to suppress it, not to avoid talking about it. And what I've seen over the past 10 years as Internet has grown, is that the church has started being more open as a result of these efforts, and people's legitimate concerns are now starting to be addressed. And so I think that's healthy. I don't think that's bad. I don't think that's wicked. Now sometimes I've been angry and upset, and that's not Christlike. So I'm willing to look really hard at my tone, my attitude, my frustrations. I don't want to be anything other than Christlike. I know I fall short all the time. What would be hard for me

Guest 8 [01:21:10] would

John Dehlin [01:21:10] be to say that I can't talk openly or allow other people to talk openly about their perspectives, their stories, even if sometimes it's anger or frustration or sadness. Because I think that along with letting people talk about happiness and joy and belief, I think it's that open conversation that helps us get closer to truth.

Guest 8 [01:21:38] It's an interesting phenomenon. I'll just share with you some just personal thoughts, too. It's interesting with the freedom of expression as simple as emails, just how quickly people say things, maybe in an email that they may not say in public, or how quickly someone may post something on a site that may not be something they would say had they been sitting in this room talking face to face. So I worry sometimes about the freedom of which people can just speak openly. And I'm not trying to censor them in any respect. But then I think sometimes they're insensitive to other people as they speak. I think sometimes they may 10 or 15 years look more carefully at what they would say, and I think that's part of an experience. I think we're evolving. I think we're growing in that sense. I think that I really do. And as I watch things and people post on your Facebook, there are people that are quick to be critical of the church. And I, you know, I wonder if they would be as critical if they were sitting down and were talking as human beings, one to another. I don't know. I worry about that in society, when people can be openly critical and yet not have any personal connection or personal responsibility. And I think that's in essence what we deal with when we talk about these Internet posts and things like that. While they may not reflect what you say, what other people get on and say may not be something that you would feel, but yet it opens this opportunity to continue. And I think that's a concern to me. And, you know, I think we miss personal connection sometimes and we say things on the Internet, we say things in email that we would never say, or things are misconstrued in an email or a Facebook post, then they would be looking at each other as we are sitting here today. So I think that's the danger sometimes of this, this open Internet. I think there's positive things with Internet, but I think that's one of the things that I see happening.

John Dehlin [01:23:42] I completely agree. I think Margi gets mad at me every other day for things I say or post on. True.

Guest 8 [01:23:56] Well, that means you have a great relationship.

John Dehlin [01:24:01] Okay, so what are the next steps? Is it kind of like you guys just monitor me and then if you see me violate any of these, then I get notified?

Guest 8 [01:24:10] I think you just need to go home and really sincerely search your heart and feel and discuss if this is something, you know, a direction that you think you can do. If membership in this church is important to you, then I think you will feel the direction you need to go. And I think you'll know. I really honestly think you'll know. I don't think it's a matter of do this or do that. I think you'll know. I really honestly believe you'll know.

John Dehlin [01:24:44] And if I. If I clarify the angry things I've said in the past and then I'm side up for the rest of my life, then we're good.

Guest 8 [01:24:53] I think that's a form of repentance. You know, if we had done things in our personal life that were in need of restitution, it's something we're Taught ever since we were in sunbeams.

John Dehlin [01:25:05] But I'm just saying if I, if

Guest 8 [01:25:06] I clarify, that's what I've. Yeah, that's what I've.

John Dehlin [01:25:09] I just go silent.

Guest [01:25:11] We're good.

John Dehlin [01:25:12] You wouldn't, you wouldn't call a council.

Guest 8 [01:25:15] Well, as long as we talk about the direction of where Mormon stories go and other things like that, yeah, I think that's reasonable. But I do think you need to understand, and this is not to many to be, even though it will seem disciplinary, that part of the repentance process and part of being good is understanding that you have to go to this level to make it to this level, or you have to be on some form of informal discipline or probation to go and say, okay, I really recognize that these are the things that I've done. I won't do those again. Because otherwise it has no validity. It's just like the little kid who got caught with a candy chart and he quickly says, I won't, I won't, I won't do it again. So I mean, there has to be some heartfelt. You understand that?

John Dehlin [01:25:58] I do. Just a small thing that just came to my mind when I incorporated. The Open Stories foundation is a non profit. Part of the agreement that the lawyers told me all of us made who produce podcasts through Open Stories is that we don't own the intellectual property anymore. So Open Stories is governed by a board of directors, not just me. So it's not something that I can unilaterally just make decisions about. So I'm just letting you know that there may be things that I can do, but there may be things I can't do that it's because of the scripture.

Guest 8 [01:26:40] I think that's fair

John Dehlin [01:26:43] in terms of like taking things down or whatever, you know, those things could be taken from me and those decisions could be taken from me.

Disciplinary Council Deliberations and Outcome

Guest 8 [01:26:54] Well, and the other phenomenon that goes along with what I said, and I thought it was interesting, President Jenkins mentioned this the other day about the number. If you put our two names together and you look at the number of Google hits that we have, it's pretty astounding.

John Dehlin [01:27:06] It's over 100,000, King and Duland.

Guest 8 [01:27:11] So I have worldwide. And you and I both acknowledge, and as we saw this whole getting to the position that we're in here about the confusion about disciplinary councils, not disciplinary councils, and that our first meeting was going to be a disciplinary council. And it was just interesting how that exists in the world of Internet as incorrect information. And we can't take that down. I Acknowledge that because there are people that quoted someone else who quoted someone else, who quoted someone else every day.

Guest [01:27:50] I'm not the actor on the stage here, but I've had a front row seat and I'll just share what I've observed in that front row seat. I guess as I've seen President King approach this, as he said earlier, he's been prayerful about it, I've heard him pray on your behalf just to seek that understanding. He wants to make the right decision. He's dependent on the Lord for that. There's not direct direction from the church, there's not your specific situation in the handbook. It requires inspiration from the Lord in regards to this. And he's taken it very seriously, as he said. And I've had people, you know, there's an association here who brought up, said, they know you, they think wonderfully of you. Maybe the doctrines don't match for them with you, but they speak very highly of you and your family and I think that's one. And my interaction with you was last time sitting and listening and then what I can Google on the Internet and there's the John Dehlin that sits in front of me in this good conversation we've had and then there's the John Dehlin that the world sees on the Internet. I think as you read through the letter again and ponder that and follow counsel President King's given you that you'll look at who that public hearing, John Dylan is and consider where that rests with membership in the church as far as how that's perceived by the world. And you'll say you, maybe you've googled yourself.

Guest 8 [01:29:18] I don't know.

Guest [01:29:18] I've never done Google myself. I didn't know what's out there, I guess.

Guest 8 [01:29:22] But you're not a health professional.

Guest [01:29:24] There's probably not much out there. But looking at what's there and you can, you can't pull that back. You can't perhaps change what your board wants to do, but you can make public statements on your own personal website that say, here's where my belief is,

Guest 8 [01:29:40] I have questions about these things.

Guest [01:29:42] Here's some places you can look that maybe help you reconcile that. Here's some things that I don't know where to look for those. But you begin to create this public image that balances or matches with a faithful member of the church. Faithful members of church can have questions

Guest 8 [01:30:04] and I share with you and I apologize for my shortness, but that's kind of the one thing that I'm trying to Overcome. I'm a surgeon. And you don't want to go to a surgeon that's indecisive. You don't. You don't want to show up in the middle of the night and have somebody say, well, we could do this, we could do that. And I. And I have that responsibility to be more humble about that. And so if I interrupt, it's because my wife at home tells me, you're not at work. You can't tell me what to do, because at work I tell everybody what to do. And so I apologize if that. And I do get.

John Dehlin [01:30:47] I appreciate that. And again, I apologize to. These are sensitive topics and easy to make caricatures of each other. I think we're both trying to do

Guest 8 [01:30:56] what we feel well. I think there's tremendous positive ways to go from this. I think the responsibility is for your heart, and that's the. And I speak together because, you know, I know you have a good relationship, and I know that these are things. And I assume your relationship is just like my spouse's. We are one often. And so that's a discussion that you have.

John Dehlin [01:31:24] Do you have any questions or things you want to express? Nothing.

Guest [01:31:31] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:31:38] Okay.

Guest 8 [01:31:41] I don't really have a deadline. Right.

John Dehlin [01:31:45] No, it's just. You'll see if my behavior changes.

Guest 8 [01:31:48] Well, I. I think that you even. That's. Yeah. I mean, that's really how we know people. That's what we are.

John Dehlin [01:31:54] Yep. I understand.

Guest 8 [01:31:56] And I'm asking you to be true to yourself however you feel.

John Dehlin [01:32:01] Right. I appreciate that. And I. I don't. I don't feel. I just want you to know, I don't feel like a victim here. I don't feel like the church is being mean. I don't feel like you're being mean. I think you're being very thoughtful and respectful about your concerns. And. I think that obviously, the church has every right to decide who is. And is it a member. But more than that, I've talked about really hard things and I've said a lot of things, sometimes in truth and sometimes in frustration and anger. And I understand that, you know, puts me on shaky ground. I don't know if there's.

Guest [01:32:46] Helping us. I don't know that we police what you write and say every day when we're very busy people just as you are. But maybe some positive communication back as you ponder that and say, I'm making these things would be helpful. I know I'm not monitoring it every day. There's none there. As you make those changes. We probably wouldn't notice them unless you share with us your thoughts and your feelings of your heart and the actual

Guest 8 [01:33:13] actions that you're taking. Our association is very public. All right. I appreciate our confidentiality of our discussions.

John Dehlin [01:33:23] Appreciate it.

Guest 8 [01:33:31] You know, the challenge comes now, as members of the church, that we love you and we want for you to feel that way. And I know in the midst of where you may be, you may not feel that love, but I don't feel anything less toward your family. And I would hope that you wouldn't feel anything less toward me. Sometimes life is hard. Sometimes we have to make decisions. And sometimes those decisions are times where we come to a difference and agree to disagree. And we may not be able to bear testimony or you may not be able to enlighten me to the point where I've changed my beliefs. It just happens that way.

John Dehlin [01:34:15] Well, I apologize if any of this is brought any sadness or harm to your family.

Guest 8 [01:34:22] Well, and I extend the same apology for you, too. I think this is a personal thing that we shared. I think that we can both learn a lot from this. I can. I have.

John Dehlin [01:34:44] All right.

Guest [01:34:46] Thank you.

Guest 8 [01:34:47] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:34:48] Thanks for going over.

Guest [01:34:56] Thank you.

Guest 8 [01:34:58] Thank you.

Part 6 of 6 · Ep. 1269

Guest 9 [00:00:03] Hi.

John Dehlin [00:00:06] Hello. I'm George Christensen.

Guest 9 [00:00:07] You haven't met President Christensen. We've met him before, obviously. Have a seat. Well, thank you for coming. Thank you. Purpose of this evening is to share with you the decision that I've come to state president. And I think the best way to do that is to actually just give you this letter and allow you to. If you'd like to. To read that. You can read it together. It outlines the direction that we are.

John Dehlin [00:01:02] Okay.

Guest 9 [00:01:04] Purpose of this evening is to specifically talk about any questions you may have in relation to the specifics of the disciplinary council. Do you have any questions concerning that at all or logistics or is that date an available date for you?

John Dehlin [00:01:25] I'm going to have to check on the date.

Guest 9 [00:01:27] That's fine. I would like to. I have another alternative date. And then we run into things that. It's coordinating several different people's schedule. But your schedule, of course, is first priority. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:01:41] Excellent. So how does it work?

Guest 9 [00:01:51] Disciplinary council. Most of this is pretty. I think you can even Google it on Wikipedia. But I'll take you through the church handbook of instructions and explain it to you. Disparity council consists of 15 individuals. The 12 high counselors, and then the three members of the state presidency. There is the state clerk that acts as a recorder. Members of the high council are the participants. If someone isn't on the high council or is not able to attend, then the other requirement is that another high priest from the stake can fill in their place and substitute. Specifics are. Is we'll invite you to come. Sister Delynn, you're invited to come and participate and sit with your husband and be a part of this if you'd like. There are opportunities for you. If you feel that there are people that can come and support you or like to act as a witness. They're invited to come. If you know their names in advance, it would be helpful. The only requirement being is that they have to be members of the church and that we would like to know about them in advance in the purpose and the nature of their coming. It doesn't have to be in detail during the evening.

John Dehlin [00:03:06] They're allowed to join.

Guest 9 [00:03:08] They'll come. And then they can come and speak as a witness or in your behalf.

John Dehlin [00:03:13] Okay.

Guest 9 [00:03:13] And then they'll be excused. And then if someone else would like to come, that would be also a possibility as well. We want to.

John Dehlin [00:03:20] Would I be there when they speak?

Guest 9 [00:03:21] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:03:22] Okay.

Guest 9 [00:03:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:23] Would she be there with me the whole time?

Guest 9 [00:03:25] Yes. Typically, we invite you to come. We will present to you the concerns that I have and discuss them at that time. You'll be given as much time as you need to present your thoughts and your ideas or your feelings. The High Council is divided into two groups. Those that make sure that defend the church and those that represent you. Brother Dehyn. So it will be the site of justice and the site of mercy. They will make sure that balance is taking place. High Councilors will have an opportunity to ask you questions. You'll have an opportunity to respond to those questions. Then after that is done and we'll dismiss you, then we'll discuss this as the High Council. We will make a decision. Well, no, we will discuss this as the High Council and as the stake presidency will come. We'll discuss the comments of the High Council. We'll prayerfully seek a decision. We'll come back, we'll present that decision to the High Council, ask for their sustaining or supporting vote, and then we would invite you back in with a decision at that time. I'm not sure how long that will take. It may take a long time, depending on the nature of the Council and how we feel and how we prepare.

John Dehlin [00:04:46] Okay. You said I'll be given as much

Guest 9 [00:04:49] time as I want, within reason. I mean, I think you can prepare fairly concisely. I mean, I don't anticipate my presentation to you for being more than 30 minutes, and I'd be happy to give you twice that time. Wow.

John Dehlin [00:05:06] Okay.

Guest 9 [00:05:07] So you can prepare accordingly. You don't need. If you need that much time, that's fine. You don't need to necessarily feel like you have to prepare that much time. If you feel that you can be straightforward, that would be fine. We'll be as straightforward. I'll be as straightforward as I can.

John Dehlin [00:05:20] Will you be using visuals?

Guest 9 [00:05:22] No.

John Dehlin [00:05:24] Okay. And then you'll have just, like, evidence. Like, do you pass that around, you know?

Guest 9 [00:05:31] No, not at that time. It will be actually a discussion about the reason why we're here at this Council. I will not present any kind of evidence other than the fact that what discussions that you and I have had. Things that have been presented on the end. Well, I guess in that sense, there isn't evidence. And then outside of that, you can bring with you things that you feel are pertinent to your supporting case.

John Dehlin [00:05:58] Okay.

Guest 9 [00:06:04] Did I miss anything? I'm good going. Okay. It's pretty straightforward.

John Dehlin [00:06:14] When we. So when we met in August and you gave me that letter, and

Guest 9 [00:06:24] then

John Dehlin [00:06:24] we talked about kind of the terms or conditions so that I could understand what kind of. What what exactly I was being, you know, what the requirements were for maintaining membership and stuff. I tried to summarize those for you and then say, if this is what I understood, we can't really agree to those terms. Then when we corresponded about that, it seemed like you were uncomfortable with.

Guest 9 [00:06:59] No, I'll explain that to you very succinctly and then we can talk about the rest of the Disciplinary Council. I didn't feel that I was in a position that the things that you had taken, the context that you had taken them, truly represented the spirit nature of what I was trying to convey. And so in that sense, I wasn't prepared nor willing to sign a document saying that I believe this to be the spirit and context. And I think I explained that to you in the response that I gave you.

John Dehlin [00:07:28] So I wasn't asking you to silent me.

Guest 9 [00:07:30] Well, you were asking for confirmation of that through an email saying, do you agree that this is what happened?

John Dehlin [00:07:35] Oh, okay.

Guest 9 [00:07:36] And so that's the position that I chose to take in that respect.

John Dehlin [00:07:42] Was there anything, like, factually wrong with the things that I wrote?

Guest 9 [00:07:45] You know, Brother Dehlin, the purpose of this meeting this evening is to talk about the logistics of the Disciplinary Council. Those are questions that you're welcome to bring to the Disciplinary Council.

John Dehlin [00:07:57] So you don't want to talk about it?

Guest 9 [00:07:58] Not this evening.

John Dehlin [00:08:00] Okay. And then you had mentioned in one of your letters that you would be seeking to counsel with me over the past several months, if I remember correctly, and I don't remember you ever reaching out again.

Guest 9 [00:08:23] I'll just be straightforward with you. You're fairly public in my responses of the things you would and wouldn't do. I felt at that time that pursuing that counseling wasn't beneficial or wasn't realistic or wasn't an idea that I'd like to pursue.

John Dehlin [00:08:37] But you offered it. I was just curious why

Guest 9 [00:08:42] that was my invitation. And I did not, after a period of time, feel that it would be valuable to the process that we're undergoing based upon the nature and intent of what you responded to me.

John Dehlin [00:08:53] Okay, what, like we, within the week, said that we couldn't agree to those terms. So. And you had said that, you know, this wouldn't be dragged on.

Guest 9 [00:09:09] I'll share this with you succinctly and just say this is a discussion we'll have in the council. But it will also tell you the thing that I've learned, that this has been on the Lord's timeframe, not on mine.

John Dehlin [00:09:25] Okay, so you basically don't want to talk.

Guest 9 [00:09:29] Not this evening. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:09:35] Well, that makes it a short conversation.

Guest 9 [00:09:37] Well, the purpose, as I explained, is to deliver this letter to see if, logistically this is a reasonable time for you. I'll wait for your response, and then we'll proceed with the disciplinary council.

John Dehlin [00:09:49] Okay. Do you have any questions?

Guest 9 [00:09:51] I don't.

John Dehlin [00:09:52] Okay. All right.

Guest 9 [00:09:54] Okay. Thank you for coming.

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