Welcome and Event Introduction

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 625

Paul Burke [00:00:00] Foreign.

John Dehlin [00:00:06] Stories podcast is a production of the Open Stories Foundation. All donations to Mormon Stories are fully tax deductible and go directly towards keeping the podcast alive and towards building a community of support for Mormons like you. This podcast is also available in high definition video@YouTube.com MormonStories Come, come, ye saints.

Tyler Glenn [00:00:28] No toil nor labor fear but with joy wend your way.

John Dehlin [00:00:41] So before we actually kind of kick off, I just wanted to first thank you all for coming. It's just such an honor. It's such an honor to be here in Provo, Utah. Right? How many? Any BYU students here that's able to raise your hands?

Tyler Glenn [00:00:59] All right.

John Dehlin [00:01:00] Got some BYU going on. It's an honor to be back where I got my undergraduate degree, so that's exciting. We want to get going, but we thought that. I just wanted to kind of read off a list of people we wanted to thank. Want to thank Velour for hosting this tonight and Corey. We're super grateful to be here. This is a great venue. You're going to see him in a minute. But I want to thank publicly Tighter Glenn for kind of helping make this possible and for being here tonight to perform. You guys excited to hear Tyler?

Tyler Glenn [00:01:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:01:38] How many of you are here just to hear Tyler? Raise your hand if you're here. Just. It's okay. I'm not offended at all. I want to thank Troy Williams. Where's Troy? Troy, are you. Troy's in the back, everyone. Troy. Troy is the leader of Equality Utah. They work really hard to help promote LGBTQ equality here in Utah. And so, Troy, thank you so much for coming and helping make this happen. There's a booth in the back, an Equality Utah booth in the back. They've got some bumper stickers and other sorts of things, but Troy has an allies dinner every year that is one of the highlights of the year for many of us. So please remember that and support Equality Utah. Want to thank Benchmark Books for being here with a load of books in the back. We do have books for sale. This is an excellent book. So please, if you can, empty the books there to kind of reward these authors. Want to thank Richard Holdman and Chad Brown, our videographers. Hi, Richard. Richard's done all the. Pretty much all the videos for Mormon stories, and Chad's helped out quite a bit. So I want to thank Lindsay Hanson Park. Where are you, Lindsay? In the back, Lindsay. All right, for those of you who don't know, Lindsay was kind of the gatekeeper tonight, but she is one of the leaders of Sunstone Education foundation, they put on a really amazing conference, actually, monthly conferences all over the United States and sometimes in Europe. But make sure and check out Sunstone this July, right? It's going to be fantastic. They run a really great conference. Really briefly, I want to thank also everyone who supports the Open Stories Foundation. How many of you are supporters of the Open Stories foundation, raise your hand. All right, let's give them an applause. Honestly, you guys are most sort of responsible for allowing these events to happen because your donations go to keep the podcast and the foundation alive. And I just can't thank you enough. So for those of you who support us, thank you. For those of you who aren't supporting us yet, we would love your support. You can just donate@the MormonStories.org I do want to announce, just really briefly, that in our work with the foundation, we really try and provide support for people who are transitioning kind of away from Mormon orthodoxy into either progressive Mormonism or post Mormonism. But we're having a retreat April 1st through 3rd in Park City. And this retreat is sort of a three day event, two and a half day event. It's for couples or individuals, but it's basically for anyone who is struggling to deal with, you know, faith crisis, marriage that's struggling due to faith crises, dealing with extended friends and family, you know, spirituality after a faith transition. There's sort of all sorts of things that we cover in these retreats and they're really life changing. So I've been advertising it a bit on Facebook, but a lot of people apparently don't check Facebook. So if any of you are interested, please email me@johndelinmail.com and say, Hey, I want to go to that retreat and I can give you the information. It's really a fantastic thing. I do also want to thank Joanna Brooks, the co author of this amazing book. She's not here tonight, but she definitely helped make this possible along with HarperCollins. So I think I've thanked everyone there is to thank. And so now what we're going to do is we are going to invite a dear friend of mine, Tyler Glenn. I had the good privilege of meeting Tyler just a little bit ago and the Mormon Stories interview with Tyler is in the bank. It's ready to be released and it's going to be coming out, you know, in the next three or four weeks. But I was super grateful that Tyler was willing to come sing to us tonight. And so if you guys don't mind, how about we give Tyler a raging round of Applause to welcome him tonight.

Tyler Glenn Performs a Live Song

Tyler Glenn [00:06:11] So I wrote this song a couple years ago, right before it came out. So to me tonight, it's very special, but it's also for anyone that's having their own identity crisis, and it's definitely a song of hope. So this is called Living in Another World. Thank you very much. Phone keeps ringing in another room I'm daydreaming like a little kid at school. Can't think Thinking of my teenage youth I'm alive but I can barely move. And I guess I've always been. It's been hard for me to say close my eyes, take me away. Yeah, they've been telling me to come of age I've been going through an awkward phase. They've been trying hard to wake me up Saying stuff that never gets me off. Don't mind me, I'm living in another world. Don't mind me, I'm living in another world. TV is telling me to be myself I can't trust what the neon psychic sells. See, I found out how to trust myself I found out I'm stronger than the pills. And I guess I've always been this way hey. It's been hard for me to say Close my eyes, take me away yeah, yeah, yeah They've been trying hard to wake me up Saying stuff that never kiss me up. I've been living like a cumnovation I can Trapped in a cage. Don't mind me I'm living in another world. Don't mind me I'm living in another world. There are nights I feel like I could die the four chords and a beat keep me alive and you can barely recognize everything beyond my eyes I've been going through it my whole life There are nights I feel like I could die Four chords in a be keep me alive you can barely recognize everything beyond my eyes I've been going through my whole life They've been trying really wake me up Saying things that never get me up. They've been trying not to wake me up Saying stuff that never gets me up. Don't mind me I'm living in another world. Don't mind me I'm living in another world. Thank you. Let's welcome back John de Lynn and Alex Cooper, please. And Paul, her lawyer.

John Dehlin [00:11:54] So let's give it up again for Tyler Glenn, everybody. All right, well, let's be honest. How many of you have actually been able to finish the book? Raise your hand. All right, we got a good chunk of us. Well, you guys know who we're? Who? The guest of honor is it's been such a joy to read this book, and I know a tiny bit about what it's like to have your personal life kind of exposed to the world, but it's a whole different, I think, level to have that happen when your story sort of involves the level of trauma and the difficulty that Alex Cooper has experienced. So, please, let's give Alex Cooper and her attorney, Paul Burke, a really warm Mormon Stories welcome to the stage. So, Alex, welcome. It's so nice to have you here, Paul. You too. And let's just begin. A lot of you have heard the story, but since this is Mormon Stories, we're going to kind of COVID it, but a bit more in sort of direct narrative format. And we will cover probably a lot that's in the book, but we'll also maybe stray a bit and talk about some of the things that aren't in the book. And then what we hope to do is have some time at the end for a little bit of Q and A where you guys can answer some questions. So without going, you know, too much into detail, Alex, why don't we start by you telling us just a bit about your kind of experiences growing up in the church and your kind of memories of being raised Mormon.

Alex Cooper's Early Life in the Church

Alex Cooper [00:14:03] I have a lot of really great memories growing up in the church. It was my entire life. Going to girls camp every year and packing snacks for Sunday school. It really wasn't a bad thing. I felt really normal.

John Dehlin [00:14:28] Did you guys have the family meeting and the scripture study and that sort of thing? Yeah, pretty regularly. Yeah. Did you have a favorite primer song putting you on the spot?

Alex Cooper [00:14:39] The Sunbeam song.

John Dehlin [00:14:40] Jesus Wants me for a Sunbeam. Yeah. That's a good one. Good. And which part of California was this?

Alex Cooper [00:14:48] This was in Southern California. Victorville, California.

John Dehlin [00:14:51] Victorville. That's by Apple Valley. Is that right?

Alex Cooper [00:14:54] Yeah, like the armpit of California.

John Dehlin [00:14:55] It's not so nice.

Alex Cooper [00:14:56] No, no.

John Dehlin [00:14:58] Have you been to Victorville? Anybody? Apple Valley. Oh, wow. A lot of you. Is it that bad? Not so bad. It is bad. There's a little bit of division in the audience about that. Okay, so. And tell us how many siblings you had.

Alex Cooper [00:15:16] I have four brothers and a sister.

John Dehlin [00:15:18] Yeah. So you're one of six?

Alex Cooper [00:15:20] I'm the youngest.

John Dehlin [00:15:20] You're the youngest of six. Okay. Any of your older siblings serve missions or anything like that?

Alex Cooper [00:15:27] Yeah, yeah, they did.

John Dehlin [00:15:28] They all did. How many?

Alex Cooper [00:15:29] Two of them did.

John Dehlin [00:15:30] Two of them did. Okay. All right, So I think, you know, it's pretty common for people to, you know, LGBT people to start Noticing that they're different. Maybe 8 or 9, 10 years old. And then usually around 13, 14 is when they sort of start to realize that maybe they may be, you know, same sex, attracted, as some people refer to it, or gay or lesbian. How was that for you? How was your experience? Sort of coming to understand your own sexuality?

Coming Out and Being Sent Away

Alex Cooper [00:16:09] I knew I was different. I didn't really know why I went to boarding school.

John Dehlin [00:16:16] Catholic?

Alex Cooper [00:16:17] No, all girls boarding school in England. And kind of fell in love with my. My first. My first girl crush, I guess. And I didn't think I was gay. I just thought this was super weird. So that was like the first. First realization was that the viola player. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:16:44] Yeah. 7th ish grade. Is that right? Okay. All right. Yeah. I think I read in the book you were going for first chair. You were trying to take her out.

Alex Cooper [00:16:55] Right.

John Dehlin [00:16:57] And you got it.

Alex Cooper [00:16:57] I did, yeah, she did.

John Dehlin [00:17:01] We're not going to make you play the viola for us tonight, so talk a little bit about kind of. There's sort of a moment in the book where you kind of were next to her and you kind of had an urge to talk about that for just a second, if you know what I'm talking about.

Alex Cooper [00:17:17] Yeah, I was like, whoa, this is weird. I'm gonna tell her. And I didn't because I was terrified. I'm glad I didn't, though. Didn't back on it.

John Dehlin [00:17:32] Yeah, but there's a part where you like, wanted to hold her hand, Is that right? But you didn't do it.

Alex Cooper [00:17:36] No.

John Dehlin [00:17:36] Yeah, you held back. So at what point were you sort of. At what point did it sort of go from realizing that you were different, that you had a crush on this one girl, to sort of, whoa, this might be more about who I am. Talk about meeting who you call Yvette in the book.

Alex Cooper [00:17:53] Yeah, I met Yvette. I was spray painting trash cans for our recycling group at school and I met this girl and she helped me with it and I just thought she was amazing. And I realized I had a crush on her. Like, it's my second girl crush. Oh my goodness. And we really hit it off just around 15.

John Dehlin [00:18:22] Mm, okay.

Alex Cooper [00:18:24] And I just. I wanted to tell her everything and I wanted to know everything about her. And these. This is the same thing that my friends were telling me how they felt about boys. I was like, oh, shit.

John Dehlin [00:18:42] Can you say that at the velour? Can you say. Can you use that language? This is provo. No, it's good. Let loose. You're safe. So should we keep calling her Yvette? Is that okay? All right. So, yeah. So talk about how that relationship progressed.

Alex Cooper [00:19:04] We did everything together. I felt like I could tell her anything. It was, I think, like a normal relationship, but with a girl. And I decided to tell my parents because I knew they were going to flip out about it, obviously, but not to the extent that they did,

John Dehlin [00:19:27] because

Alex Cooper [00:19:27] I could tell my parents anything. So I told my parents, and they told me to get out of the house. So I did. And two weeks later, they picked me up and told me we were going to Grandma and Grandpa's house.

John Dehlin [00:19:49] Yeah. So would you characterize your relationship with your parents as being pretty close?

Alex Cooper [00:19:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:57] Do you have sisters? How many?

Alex Cooper [00:19:58] I have one sister.

John Dehlin [00:19:59] One sister.

Tyler Glenn [00:19:59] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:20:00] So mama's girl, daddy's girl? Both. Both, yeah. And you're pretty open with them?

Alex Cooper [00:20:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:07] And had you absorbed any sort of anti LGBT messages in the church or growing up? Was it ever even discussed?

Alex Cooper [00:20:17] No, it wasn't really discussed at all.

John Dehlin [00:20:21] So, originally, did you feel shame or guilt about it?

Alex Cooper [00:20:24] No.

John Dehlin [00:20:24] You didn't?

Alex Cooper [00:20:25] No.

John Dehlin [00:20:26] So when you told him, you didn't think it'd be a big deal or what?

Alex Cooper [00:20:29] I knew they would be upset, but I didn't feel guilty about it at all.

John Dehlin [00:20:32] You didn't feel guilty?

Alex Cooper [00:20:33] No.

John Dehlin [00:20:33] Yeah. So you were surprised by their reaction. What was that like? Talk about how you felt when they didn't, when they wanted to. Where did they send you when you had to leave the house? Where'd you go?

Alex Cooper [00:20:46] I went to a friend's house.

John Dehlin [00:20:48] Went to a friend's house. And what was that like to have them have that reaction?

Alex Cooper [00:20:56] I felt like it was. I felt like it was fair for them to have that reaction.

John Dehlin [00:21:00] It was fair

Alex Cooper [00:21:04] because I didn't just realize it and then immediately tell my parents. I had some time to think about it, so I figured they need time to think about it as well. Time to cool down. They didn't really.

John Dehlin [00:21:20] And I remember in the book, maybe there was a time or two where you kind of stayed out past curfew or didn't come home.

Alex Cooper [00:21:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:32] Was that part of the reaction or.

Alex Cooper [00:21:38] No, I did stay out past curfew a lot, but this reaction was completely different.

John Dehlin [00:21:46] Yeah. Yeah. It kind of made everything pale in comparison. And then you mentioned, with Yvette, maybe a little bit of substance use. Right. Had that come out to your parents at that point at all?

Alex Cooper [00:22:02] Not at that point.

John Dehlin [00:22:04] So that was a part of their anger or frustration? They didn't know?

Alex Cooper [00:22:07] No.

John Dehlin [00:22:08] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So. So they get upset and. And you're. You're sort of saying you were pretty understanding, you weren't heartbroken, that they weren't more loving and accepting. You were just like, that's.

Alex Cooper [00:22:22] Give them time. Yeah, they'll get over it. Yeah, they have to get over it.

John Dehlin [00:22:27] Yeah. So you're thinking, I'm going to be gone a couple weeks and then I'll,

Alex Cooper [00:22:29] what, come back, start school? Just go start school.

John Dehlin [00:22:33] And you were 15 at the time. What grade was that?

Alex Cooper [00:22:38] Ninth grade.

John Dehlin [00:22:39] Ninth grade. Okay, so two weeks go by, and then what happens? You find out you're going where?

Alex Cooper [00:22:47] I'm gonna go visit Grandma and Grandpa in St. George.

John Dehlin [00:22:51] Yeah, go visit Grandma and Grandpa in St. George. Okay, so you tell us about that story.

Alex Cooper [00:22:58] So we're. My parents pick me up from my friend's house, and the car is completely packed with all of my stuff. They say I'm going to Grandma and Grandpa's house for a week. This is a lot of stuff for a week. But we finally get to St. George, and I start bringing my bags into the house, and my grandpa's like, are you ready? Picks up my bags and walks back out to the car. They tell me that gonna go visit this family so they can help me.

John Dehlin [00:23:35] And what was that like? What are you feeling at the moment?

Alex Cooper [00:23:41] Complete panic.

John Dehlin [00:23:42] Yeah. You okay? You were panicked? Why?

Alex Cooper [00:23:53] There were some secrets going around. I had no idea what was happening.

John Dehlin [00:23:58] Yeah, like, maybe we would expect a teenager to deceive a parent. Like, maybe that's developmentally appropriate. What's it like to be deceived by your parents?

Alex Cooper [00:24:12] It blows. It really sucks. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:16] Is that the technical term? What did you feel, describe your feelings at that moment?

Alex Cooper [00:24:24] I was just scared. I didn't know what was happening, but I thought whatever it was, I could definitely get out of it.

John Dehlin [00:24:32] Get out of it in what way?

Alex Cooper [00:24:35] There was no. I didn't think there was any way my parents were gonna leave me with strangers. I thought I could definitely get out of it. Maybe not that day, but the next day.

John Dehlin [00:24:47] Right. Because you were a pretty ingenious kid.

Alex Cooper [00:24:50] Right?

John Dehlin [00:24:51] You thought so?

Alex Cooper [00:24:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:54] Okay, so Grandma, Grandpa, Grandpa get you in the car and tell us what happened.

Alex Cooper [00:25:01] We drive a few minutes away, and really not far at all, but we pull up to this house, and this lady comes out, and my parents start taking my stuff out of the car. And I locked myself in the car, grabbed my dad's cell phone, called Yvette, and then this giant man comes out of this house. And they unlocked the car and basically dragged me out of the car into this house. And I was like, wow, I stayed out way too many times. This is bad. And they sit me down and tell me that they're going to help me. My parents sign over custody to them in their living room. That's when my heart really sank. Even if it was up to my parents, it's not anymore. So they signed over custody. My parents leave, and they start going through all of my things, telling me that all of my clothes are inappropriate and going through my journals and just everything.

John Dehlin [00:26:36] Did your parents get a chance to say, sweetie, here's what we're doing and here's why we're doing it? Did you get that? Was there a point where they kind of said, we need to tell you what's going on? And what did they say?

Alex Cooper [00:26:48] They said they're going to help you.

John Dehlin [00:26:50] Were they specific about how?

Alex Cooper [00:26:53] No, they weren't. They left.

John Dehlin [00:26:56] Okay. So you didn't necessarily know. You thought it was for truancy, for staying out too much or just being a hard kid. Okay. So that's a little bit.

Tyler Glenn [00:27:06] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:27:07] Of a surprise.

Paul Burke [00:27:08] So they.

John Dehlin [00:27:09] So they sort through your suitcases and get rid of a bunch of your clothes. They gave you some clothes, right?

Alex Cooper [00:27:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:17] What were the clothes like?

Alex Cooper [00:27:18] They were real cute,

John Dehlin [00:27:22] super modest.

Alex Cooper [00:27:24] Real modest. Looked like they just grabbed a bag from the DI and picked the most modest things in there. Long skirts, big T shirts, fashion statement.

Life Inside the Reparative Therapy Home

John Dehlin [00:27:40] What do you imagine it does to you psychologically and sort of identity wise to have people picking through your belongings and then assigning you almost kind of a uniform? What does that do to you and your identity, your sense of self? And demeaning the clothes that you brought.

Paul Burke [00:27:58] Right.

Alex Cooper [00:27:58] Right. At the time, while it was happening, it just made me angry, like, I'm definitely gonna get out of here. You guys are crazy. This is not happening.

John Dehlin [00:28:09] Yeah. Yeah. So there were some kids in the home. We're gonna call them. We'll call them the couple. In the book. It's Johnny and Tiana, but we'll call them the couple, if that's okay for now. And so they had a few kids. Right, and then. Were there other sort of kids like you in the home?

Paul Burke [00:28:32] How many?

Alex Cooper [00:28:34] There were two boys, and then a third boy came. Came after me.

John Dehlin [00:28:40] Okay. Yeah. Do you have any idea what your parents were paying per month to sort of get this help?

Alex Cooper [00:28:46] I didn't know until later.

John Dehlin [00:28:49] Do you talk about that now, or would you rather not?

Alex Cooper [00:28:52] I think they. Do you remember how much?

Paul Burke [00:28:56] I don't remember precisely. It was, I think, about $700 a month.

John Dehlin [00:29:00] $700 a month. Yeah, it's not, it's not cheap to live in California. Right. So I mean, I imagine your parents were working pretty hard to be able to afford. That's like two car payments. I mean, that's a pretty significant investment for them, right?

Alex Cooper [00:29:14] Yeah, it was.

John Dehlin [00:29:15] Yeah. So. So what? So tell us about how sort of the environment was and what the treatment was and did they tell you what you were there to be treated for?

Alex Cooper [00:29:29] So after my parents left, we sat down for a group and I was introduced to all of their kids and they asked their kids if they knew why I was there. And one of their daughters said, because she's living a bad life.

John Dehlin [00:29:53] And it's almost like you were an object lesson to their children for family home evening. Right?

Alex Cooper [00:29:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:00] It's like, here's how not to be with these three other. Is that, how did that feel?

Alex Cooper [00:30:10] Felt really shitty. Like I was angry. I was so mad. But still angry still at that time. It's like, I'm getting out of here. You guys are nuts.

John Dehlin [00:30:20] Yeah. Yeah. So what did they say to you? So the. So the kids said they're here for being bad or whatever.

Alex Cooper [00:30:26] And then they asked why my life was bad and they all raised their hand. It was weird. Weird group. Because she likes girls. Like, oh, wow, mom.

John Dehlin [00:30:44] That was when you first knew why you were there. Okay, and how'd that feel? Same thing, right?

Alex Cooper [00:30:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:53] Angry and sad. Okay. All right. Okay, so tell us how kind of the treatment evolved.

Alex Cooper [00:31:02] So at first I just, I learned how to cook, cleaned everything. I got a backpack full of rocks. And that was to fill the physical burden of being gay.

John Dehlin [00:31:19] Was there something you had done to sort of have that punishment be put upon you?

Alex Cooper [00:31:25] Yes, I would not give them any information on my girlfriend.

John Dehlin [00:31:29] And why did they want this information about your girlfriend?

Alex Cooper [00:31:32] Because she was 18 at the time and I was not and they wanted to send her to jail.

John Dehlin [00:31:39] Right now, you know, if I've got a 15 year old daughter, right, who's straight and an 18 year old boy comes around and wants to date her, that's a problem for me as a dad. Right. Like so talk about. And Paul, you could jump in here if you want. Like, is that a. Do you think that's a fair concern? Not a fair concern. I don't know the laws in terms of that sort of thing. But do you have thoughts or feelings about that from your perspective at the time or now? And Paul, if you want to add anything about that, is that a legitimate concern for your parents?

Alex Cooper [00:32:16] I didn't think so. At all. Because before I told my parents I was gay, I dated boys. I dated a senior who was 18, and I was not 18. So this was. This was definitely not about that.

John Dehlin [00:32:34] Okay, so if it had been a boy and he was 18, it would have been no problem. So that. That in and of itself is hypocritical, Is that what you're saying?

Alex Cooper [00:32:42] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:32:43] Do you want to jump in, Paul?

Paul Burke [00:32:44] Well, here comes the adult perspective.

John Dehlin [00:32:46] You know, in the legal case, and

Paul Burke [00:32:49] even as Alex's lawyer, I thought that parents could have legitimate concerns about the age of her girlfriend. But what became clear was that their real concern was the gender of the object of her affection. And that's something that throughout the case. And we'll talk about that more later, I assume. But it became our burden to show what was really motivating the behavior of the parents and sending Alex to St. George.

John Dehlin [00:33:17] Okay, Alex, real quick. Were there times in your adolescence where you had tried to change your sexual orientation, where you had done any of the typical things, Praying to God to make it go away, fasting, extra righteousness, any of those, you know, date boys and just really try to be attracted, like, any of that stuff?

Alex Cooper [00:33:42] Yeah, I did try to date boys. I didn't really pray about it. I don't know why, but I didn't feel like it was a wrong thing to like girls. Even though I grew up in the

Tyler Glenn [00:33:54] church,

Alex Cooper [00:33:56] I didn't really start praying to fix it until after I was living

John Dehlin [00:34:02] with this couple in the house. So before that time, you just sort of felt like it was okay and didn't feel a lot of guilt and shame. You mentioned that earlier. Is that right? Okay, so you know that there's a target. Now, before you mentioned before the backpack and the rocks is mentioned in the book. I believe it mentions a few times you tried to escape. Is that right? Talk about maybe a couple of those times and what Johnny's reaction was.

Alex Cooper [00:34:28] I think the first time that I tried to escape, my second day there, we were at McDonald's in St. George, and I asked to go to the bathroom, and they let me. So I went. And I was just hoping there was somebody in there cleaning the bathroom or somebody like anybody in there. And there was. There was an employee who didn't speak a lot of English, and I somehow got it across to her that I needed her phone and I needed her to watch the door for me. And while I'm in the middle of trying to dial and get a hold of somebody, Tiana walks in and basically shoves this lady out of the way and grabs the phone from me and drags me out of McDonald's while I'm screaming the entire time. And there's these moms with their kids looking at me like it's no big deal. They did nothing. And because I wasn't successful in trying to escape, I got hit a lot.

John Dehlin [00:35:51] Yeah. So Johnny's reaction was to do what?

Alex Cooper [00:35:55] He hit me.

John Dehlin [00:36:00] Yeah. And it sounded like it. Like the first one sounded like a. Was it a punch to the stomach kind of hit? Yeah, yeah. And then another time belt. Is that right? Yeah. So awful. So you write really powerfully in the book about sort of when you're. When you're kind of shouting, screaming as you're leaving McDonald's. Right. That you were surprised at the lack of reaction. Do you want to talk about that really quick?

Alex Cooper [00:36:40] People looked up, they saw it was happening, and nobody did anything. Nobody got up.

John Dehlin [00:36:49] Yeah. You kind of think that that would kind of set off some alarms. Right. And maybe get some support. So. So is it fair to say the. So the. The backpack and the rocks weren't tied necessarily to those attempts to escape?

Paul Burke [00:37:08] Is that.

Alex Cooper [00:37:09] Yeah, not really.

John Dehlin [00:37:10] They were separate. Okay, so were there any, like, ongoing educational sort of attempts at sort of re. Educating you or reorienting you in terms of like your day to day experiences there? Are you going to school? Talk about, like what the time is like, day to day.

Alex Cooper [00:37:30] They enrolled me in one of those homeschool packets at home. They enrolled me and then never took me back. So I wasn't actually going to school. So I woke up, the kids, got them ready for school, made sure they had lunch, breakfast, cleaned the house while they were gone. They came back, made sure they had dinner, everything. I learned how to be a mom.

John Dehlin [00:38:02] It sounds like your parents were paying them for you to be a nanny to their children. Is that fair?

Alex Cooper [00:38:09] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:11] And you weren't getting an education?

Alex Cooper [00:38:14] No.

John Dehlin [00:38:16] And there was no like, curriculum or ongoing anything in terms of actually trying to help you change or get better, is that right?

Alex Cooper [00:38:27] We had groups led by. Led by Tiana and Johnny.

John Dehlin [00:38:34] Okay. Are they licensed mental health professionals?

Alex Cooper [00:38:37] No, I don't think they finished high school.

John Dehlin [00:38:40] Didn't finish high school. So they're leading these groups without any training. And what are the groups like?

Alex Cooper [00:38:48] We would read about the plan of salvation and why I did not fit into the plan of Salvation.

Paul Burke [00:38:59] If you'll forgive an interruption, this couple, both of them worked in teen crisis centers in St. George, so they may not have been licensed professionals, but one of the reasons why Alex's parents were directed towards them was because they had worked in crisis centers in St. George and had developed a reputation within the community for helping troubled teens.

John Dehlin [00:39:23] So they. They had jobs with these centers, but then sort of on the side, kind of moonlighted with their own little operation.

Paul Burke [00:39:31] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:39:32] To say.

Paul Burke [00:39:32] Okay. That's right.

John Dehlin [00:39:33] Okay. Talk about the innovation on Mormon doctrine that Joni shared with you about how your parents were not going to suffer the loss of your presence in the celestial kingdom. You know what I'm talking about, Right.

Mormon Doctrine, Punishment, and Psychological Harm

Alex Cooper [00:39:49] He basically told me that if being gay would cast me into outer darkness and my parents would be okay, they wouldn't have to suffer because a copy of me would be made and that copy of me would be the exact same. They wouldn't know that it wasn't really me. And I could live there. This copy of me could live there in the celestial kingdom with them.

John Dehlin [00:40:21] What did you think about that? You know what? There's not a lot I haven't heard of before. That's actually one I've never heard before.

Alex Cooper [00:40:31] Well, I was Revelation. I was raised in the church, so that's wrong. That's not right.

John Dehlin [00:40:41] But what an awful. What an awful thing to tell a child. Right? I mean, 500 different types of abuse, but what an abusive thing to tell a child. So the backpack with the rocks. Now, we'll talk later about what their claim was regarding that, but talk a little bit about the time that they introduced that to you and then what kind of. What the consequence ended up being for you with that.

Alex Cooper [00:41:13] Tiana came home from work and she said that she had this great idea. She got a backpack and made some of the kids go outside and get rocks. And she filled up the backpack and told me that I was going to wear this backpack from the time I woke up to the time I went to bed to feel the physical burden of being gay.

John Dehlin [00:41:42] And this is obviously an awful sort of thing to have to answer, but, like, what was it like to wear that day in and day out?

Alex Cooper [00:41:50] It sucked. It hurt. I would try to wear as many layers, extra T shirts, extra hoodies, so it wouldn't dig in as much.

John Dehlin [00:42:07] And how heavy? Like, do you have a sense to give us a sense for how heavy it was? Like a brick. Like a couple bricks. Like a school bag full of books.

Alex Cooper [00:42:18] Say, like 30 pounds is my guess.

John Dehlin [00:42:21] 30 pounds. And how many? If you had to estimate the time span that you had to wear this backpack, what would you say

Alex Cooper [00:42:32] it started for just a couple hours here and there Then it was all day, and then there was a certain time that I would have to wake up and a certain time that I could go to bed. And then it was. I had to face a wall while I was doing it, and I had to wake up earlier and go to bed. It just got harder.

John Dehlin [00:42:57] So over a span of days, weeks, or months, are you wearing this backpack, do you think?

Alex Cooper [00:43:06] Months, months? I think it was like a month and a half straight. I wore the backpack.

John Dehlin [00:43:11] Okay. Talk about the specific punishment of standing at the wall and how long they would make you stand there.

Alex Cooper [00:43:21] So I refused to give them any information on Yvette. And so I would just have to stand there and think about my decision to not give them any information. How far from the wall my toes would have to touch the wall.

John Dehlin [00:43:42] And what do you think the longest duration was that you stood at the wall with the backpack?

Alex Cooper [00:43:50] I think the longest I stood there from five in the morning until four in the morning.

John Dehlin [00:44:02] And, I mean, as we're hearing that, it, like, seems unbelievable. There's a part of your book where you're even after this all happens, where your dad basically says, what. When you talk about that, what does he say?

Alex Cooper [00:44:14] Did that really actually happen?

John Dehlin [00:44:17] Yeah, he kind of doesn't believe you. What's that like to stand there carrying a backpack with a bag of rocks all day?

Alex Cooper [00:44:25] Like, it. It was different a lot of days. Some days it would go by really, really slowly, and other days I would just lose, like, hours and hours of start and then look back at the clock, and five hours had gone by, and I had no idea where it had gone.

John Dehlin [00:44:51] When Joanna first used the word torture, I had not read the book. I didn't know what she was talking about. But is that a fair description?

Alex Cooper [00:44:59] I think so.

Paul Burke [00:45:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:01] I think so, obviously. So. At what point, you know, we didn't even mention sort of that you refused to eat for several days, you know, into the. Into the time. And I think you carried sort of a defiant spirit for several months. Is that fair to say?

Attempts to Escape and a Crisis Point

Alex Cooper [00:45:24] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:45:26] And it just seems like they clamped down harder and harder. Talk about what events led to you just sort of breaking and deciding that defiance wasn't going to work anymore.

Alex Cooper [00:45:42] So on my 16th birthday, I always watch my Sweet Sixteen on MTV. Like, I wanted a car and I wanted to have a party. On my 16th birthday, my parents didn't come to visit because they. The family I was with told them I wasn't ready. And I just. I couldn't think about standing at the wall anymore, even if it was Only going to be until I was 18. Like, I couldn't. I couldn't do that for three years. So I took all the pills that I could find in the house, and I woke up to Tiana with a spoon down my throat. And I gave up. It's like, there's absolutely no way out of this. I've tried to escape a handful of times. Nobody's gonna help me. So I just decided to cooperate.

John Dehlin [00:46:43] After you tried to end your life. Yeah. Now, you were allowed to visit your parents, I think, at least two times during that, and you tried to kind of tell them what was going on.

Alex Cooper [00:46:59] Right.

John Dehlin [00:47:00] What was their reaction?

Alex Cooper [00:47:03] They did not believe me.

John Dehlin [00:47:06] What'd you say? Mom, dad, what'd you say?

Alex Cooper [00:47:10] I was crying. They make me wear this backpack. I have to stand at a wall. They treat me like shit, like, you have to do something. And before that, Tiana had told my mom that I had been trying to escape and that I was extremely manipulative and not to trust me.

John Dehlin [00:47:45] And so when you told your parents all that, what was their reaction?

Tyler Glenn [00:47:52] My mom.

Alex Cooper [00:47:53] My mom cried, I think, because I was so upset, not because she believed me, or I wouldn't have been there any longer.

John Dehlin [00:48:04] So she didn't believe you and she sent you back. Right. For me, one of the most powerful parts of the book, and honestly, I'm doing a tiny bit of projecting here, or at least identifying in ways that I could never fully identify. But one of the most powerful parts is the fact that you would stand there at the wall with the backpack, and people would come in and out of the house, talk about

Alex Cooper [00:48:42] the neighbors would come in and sit down and watch tv, play video games. The missionaries would come over for dinner, and I would have my dinner at the wall. So I really felt like there was no help. Nobody was going to help me.

John Dehlin [00:49:03] What would the missionaries say? Or do

Alex Cooper [00:49:07] they kind of look at me and Johnny would say, oh, this is her punishment. She's done something really awful. She's gonna stand here while you guys are here.

John Dehlin [00:49:25] They just walked by. So I've sort of highlighted a tiny bit here that. That I wanted us to read. Do you feel like reading, or do you want me to read it? Do you have a preference?

Alex Cooper [00:49:36] You can go ahead.

John Dehlin [00:49:36] Do you want me to read it? Here's the part that chilled me the most. The part that chills me still. People saw me standing at the wall and no one said a word. And I just. I'm going to break in. I don't think this only applies to her situation. I Think this applies to many situations that many of us can identify with. I think there I was in the front hallway of the house, positioned between the entryway, the living room and the kitchen. Throughout the day, whoever came and went from the Ciale house walked right by me. Already I knew from my escape attempts that I was invisible, that everyone trusted the Cialis and that I was just another problem kid who deserved whatever she was getting. A girl so broken and confused that she even thought she was gay. Then it goes on. Just like the people in St. George who saw Johnny and Tiana beat me in the grocery store parking lot with a belt but could not find a voice to intervene. Just like the missionaries who saw me at the wall but could not say anything to anyone to question who I was or why I was here. My parents were locked in by their need to believe and belong. So locked into their hunger for answers that they could not be with me in my questions and struggles as a gay girl in a religion that was so impossible for people like me. I did not blame them then and I do not blame them now. Still, the realization hurt. It hurt me deeply. How do you make sense of people just walking right on by? And even your parents. It's gracefully written here. Have you tried to make sense of how humans can do that? It almost seems unbelievable, right? How do you make sense of it?

Alex Cooper [00:51:42] With my parents, I. I know that they were doing what they thought was right for the people who walked by me every day. I have no idea. They suck. They should have said something. My parents really didn't know what was happening. Really had no idea the extent of what was going on.

John Dehlin [00:52:12] Even though. Even though you told him?

Alex Cooper [00:52:14] Even though I told him. While I was there, I had monitored phone calls, so I would say what they wanted me to say. So I never really got to say anything I wanted to my parents. I was saying what these people wanted me to say.

John Dehlin [00:52:38] So there was a point, I guess it was after your suicide attempt. It also mentions that you slept with a knife under your pillow. Is that right? Because you were contemplating using that as well. So what did you do once they sort of broke you down to try and get your freedom?

Alex Cooper [00:53:02] I actually prayed really hard all the time. It just didn't make sense to me that I was going through so much and in so much pain and God wasn't helping me.

John Dehlin [00:53:16] So what would you say in your prayers?

Alex Cooper [00:53:20] I would ask to get better and to not feel the way that I felt and to have a stronger testimony of the church.

John Dehlin [00:53:32] And when you say not feel the way that you felt. What do you mean?

Alex Cooper [00:53:36] I didn't want to like girls. I didn't want to feel that way at all because that's what was putting me in the situation. So you.

John Dehlin [00:53:44] You got to the point where you really wanted it to go away. And what was that like to say those prayers, hoping for an answer?

Alex Cooper [00:53:58] I felt kind of hopeful that it might work,

John Dehlin [00:54:05] and it didn't.

Alex Cooper [00:54:07] It did not work.

John Dehlin [00:54:08] What happened?

Alex Cooper [00:54:13] I just kept praying. I went to church, and I was perfect. Like, I bore my testimony every Sunday, and I played the part. And then I eventually was able to go back to school.

John Dehlin [00:54:29] Right. There's a lot of talk about reparative therapy with a psychotherapist, and believe it or not, it's still going on. But the truth is, you know, at Utah State University, we did a study of 1,612 LGBT Mormons, and it turns out that attempts to change sexual orientation through a psychotherapist is not even the third most common type of attempting change. The number one type of attempting change is what you've already mentioned, which is trying to pray and fast and be extra righteous to make it go away. And what's really odd about that is that not only were 80% of those who attempted change, did they attempt through righteousness, personal righteousness. That was not only rated the most common way of attempting change, it was also rated as the most harmful. So if you can travel back to those prayers you were making and those attempts you were pleading with God to take it away, can you explain why so many of our participants rated that as the most damaging way that they attempted change? Sort of offering those prayers and hoping for change? Why is that rated as the most harmful way of attempting change?

Alex Cooper [00:55:58] For me, it was so hard because there wasn't an answer. I was told that if you do everything right and you pray, then God will answer your prayers one way or another. But I got nothing. Nothing back.

John Dehlin [00:56:16] And what goes through your mind and your heart and your soul when you plead to Heavenly Father to fix this and then it doesn't. He doesn't fix it, what goes through your mind?

Alex Cooper [00:56:30] I'm supposed to be here. This is supposed to happen to me. The only way this is going to work is if I go to these groups and I.

John Dehlin [00:56:43] But when Heavenly Father kind of disappoints you and doesn't fix you, what does that lead you to feel or think about yourself?

Alex Cooper [00:56:52] I really suck. That's how I felt.

John Dehlin [00:56:56] Then you internalized that, right? Yeah. Okay, so you kind of played the good girl. And eventually, they let you go back to school. So talk about how things started to change at school.

Alex Cooper [00:57:14] Well, I finally gave them information on Yvette. Kind of cracked.

John Dehlin [00:57:23] What was that like, to kind of tell on her someone that you really loved?

Alex Cooper [00:57:29] I felt like I could get her out of it. I just needed to do something quickly.

John Dehlin [00:57:38] So you told her, told them, and that allowed you to go back to school. Right. And then what pleasant surprises did you find at school?

Alex Cooper [00:57:50] Jason Osmansky in foods class.

John Dehlin [00:57:54] Jason, I'm gonna move the microphone just to turn it this way.

Paul Burke [00:57:57] Is that all right?

John Dehlin [00:57:57] Okay. So, Jason. Tell us about Jason.

Alex Cooper [00:58:01] Jason was a kid who sat next to me in three of my classes, and he just kept pressing me with all of these questions. You're new. I've never seen you. What's your family name? There's got to be somebody from your family that we know. And I had a story that I was supposed to tell. I'm here.

John Dehlin [00:58:26] You were told what to say. Okay. And that was.

Alex Cooper [00:58:30] I came to take care of my grandparents. And that's it. That's all I was supposed to say?

John Dehlin [00:58:39] Yeah. On the. I'm going back a tiny bit, but on the. On the topic of kind of telling on Yvette, there's a point where they have you phone a police officer in California, talk about how that. How that phone conversation went.

Alex Cooper [00:58:58] Tiana put it on speakerphone, told me exactly what to say. The police officer heard her telling me what to say, asked her to stop, and she said, oh, no, she's just nervous. I'm helping her.

John Dehlin [00:59:19] And was she being accurate in the things that she was telling you to say?

Alex Cooper [00:59:23] Absolutely not.

John Dehlin [00:59:24] So what was she filling in?

Alex Cooper [00:59:27] That Yvette got me addicted to drugs first, and then that's why I was so in love with her and made me do sexual favors for these drugs that I was addicted to.

John Dehlin [00:59:45] That wasn't true.

Alex Cooper [00:59:46] No.

John Dehlin [00:59:47] And they. And they sort of made the claim that she groomed you.

Alex Cooper [00:59:52] I hate that word.

John Dehlin [00:59:53] I know. It's an awful word. Yeah, yeah. And what would you say to that accusation?

Alex Cooper [01:00:00] No, she did not groom me.

John Dehlin [01:00:05] So, yeah. That's crazy that she's telling you what to say to the police. Anyway, so you meet Jason, Jason becomes a friend, and tell us how that advances.

Finding Allies and a Path to Safety

Alex Cooper [01:00:17] I finally tell him what's going on, and he introduces me to Delsey, the English teacher.

John Dehlin [01:00:24] And that's a. Jason is a real name.

Paul Burke [01:00:26] Right.

John Dehlin [01:00:27] And Delsey's a real name. So there are some names that have been changed in the book and some that are real, but we can celebrate Jason and Delsey. Talk about Delsey.

Alex Cooper [01:00:36] Dulcie was the English teacher and the teacher who ran the gsa, which is the Gay Straight Alliance.

John Dehlin [01:00:50] Right.

Alex Cooper [01:00:52] And Jason brought me to her and I was like, no, Jason, I'm not going to say anything. These people know everybody.

John Dehlin [01:01:00] You're scared. Why?

Alex Cooper [01:01:01] Because I tried so many times to get away in so many different ways, and it always backfired.

John Dehlin [01:01:07] And if. And if the couple were to find out you were talking to people, what was your fear?

Alex Cooper [01:01:12] I would be wearing a backpack facing a wall and not going to school for another 10 months.

John Dehlin [01:01:17] Right. Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories Podcast. To discuss this podcast with others, please check us out@mormon mormonstories.org to join one of our 80 plus support communities across the globe. Click on the Support communities tab@mormonstories.org to keep this podcast alive. Please consider a tax deductible donation today by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org audio and video for this podcast were provided by Richard Holdman. A big thanks to the Saber Rattlers for providing the music for today's episode. The Mormont Stories logo was generously donated by studiocase. Com.

Tyler Glenn [01:01:56] Come come ye saints. No toil nor labor fear, but with joy when you're.

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 626

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Foreign. Stories podcast is a production of the Open Stories Foundation. All donations to Mormon Stories are fully tax deductible and go directly towards keeping the podcast alive and towards building a community of support for Mormons like you. This podcast is also available in high definition video@YouTube.com MormonStories Come, come, ye saints.

Tyler Glenn [00:00:28] No toil nor labor fear, but with joy wend your way.

John Dehlin [00:00:42] So you were risking a lot to go talk to Delsey and Jason. Okay, so just talked to Del. What'd you find out? What was Delsey like?

Alex Cooper [00:00:48] Amazing.

John Dehlin [00:00:49] Yeah.

Alex Cooper [00:00:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:00:50] Now it's worth saying, what was Delsey's religious affiliation?

Alex Cooper [00:00:56] Delsey was not religious.

John Dehlin [00:00:59] Not at all?

Alex Cooper [00:00:59] Not at all.

Tyler Glenn [00:01:00] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:01:00] Okay.

Alex Cooper [00:01:04] But she. She asked Jason, what do we do? Should we call dcfs? Should we call the police?

John Dehlin [00:01:10] She's asking Jason, a student, one of

Alex Cooper [00:01:13] the students, and Jason said, no, we should. We should call Paul.

John Dehlin [00:01:20] Call Paul. So Delsey knew about Paul?

Alex Cooper [00:01:22] No, I don't think so.

Paul Burke [00:01:24] Jason knew about Paul.

John Dehlin [00:01:24] Jason knew about Paul. How did Jason. Paul, how did Jason know about you?

Paul Burke [00:01:28] Jason's a really.

John Dehlin [00:01:29] Turn the mic just a little bit towards your mouth.

Paul Burke [00:01:31] Jason's a really courageous kid. And the preceding fall, he and some other students at Snow Canyon High School had committed themselves to starting a gay straight alliance. And they encountered all kinds of opposition in southern Utah from, you know, teachers, faculty, administration of the school, school district. And they had local politicians trying to prevent them from starting a gay straight alliance. They reached out. The ACLU provided them with some assistance, and when there was some coverage about the story, I reached out to Jason via email, told him that I'm an attorney in Salt Lake City, which is true, and told him that if. If I could, if he had circumstances arise, that he needed some help, that I would try to be a resource for him. So I made that contact with him. And then it was months until my phone suddenly rang 1. One day, right before lunch.

John Dehlin [00:02:26] I think it's worth briefly touching on the history in Utah of just trying to start these little clubs in the high schools. Was it super simple? Was it?

Paul Burke [00:02:37] No, it hasn't been simple at all.

John Dehlin [00:02:39] And, you know, and it's still not over. Right.

Paul Burke [00:02:42] I had to write a newspaper editorial just calling for more change. But the fight in Utah for gay straight alliances really goes back until the 1990s when I was in law school. There was a huge fight over a gay straight alliance at East High School.

John Dehlin [00:02:59] That's where a high school musical took place.

Guest [00:03:00] Right.

John Dehlin [00:03:01] I think they'd be friendly.

Paul Burke [00:03:03] That's actually true. Zac Efron came to one of the soccer games I coached when I was coaching at east high. But the fight at east high school led the Salt Lake City school board to shut down every single extracurricular club for a couple of years to prevent the formation of a gay straight alliance. The Utah legislature in, I think it was 96, it might have been 97, had a secret meeting, closed meeting in violation of state law to plot how they could try to pass laws to discourage or prevent gay straight alliances in public high schools. So over the next 10 years, the legislature passed a couple of different laws to make it difficult for students to start gay straight alliances. There was a statute that tried to give school administrators discretion to deny the formation of the clubs because they would be promoting supposedly immoral activities. The existing law makes it harder right now to start a gay straight alliance than to start, you know, a multi level marketing company or, you know, fill in the blank here in Utah. One of the other really pernicious provisions of Utah law is that to participate in a gay straight alliance, students are required to have parental permission. And that's so problematic because many of the students who are in most need of a safe place can't go to their parents and come out and say, I need to go to a gay straight alliance. So the way the law has been written is really to try to force kids to stay in the closet and to keep them from finding a safe place in our schools.

John Dehlin [00:04:48] Yeah, it's kind of awful. And there are still many schools to this day without gay straight alliances, Right?

Paul Burke [00:04:55] That's true. And there's also a law that prohibits the, quote, advocacy of homosexuality in the schools. And that law puts our educators like Delsey in a really difficult position because imagine being a teacher in a conservative school district, having a student who's questioning come and ask, is it okay to be gay? That's a student that is just crying out for the answer, yes, it's okay. But for the professional educator, if you answer yes, it's okay, is that promoting homosexuality? Is that violating Utah law? So that puts our professional educators in a really difficult position, and it leaves students in an even worse position where they may not be able to find factual information and may not be able to get support that they can't find at home or that they can't find in their churches.

John Dehlin [00:05:51] This is another sort of obvious question, but, Alex, what did that gay straight alliance club mean for you at that moment in your life?

Alex Cooper [00:06:02] Everything. Without that, without meeting Jason and having a teacher that I could go to, I don't Think I would have ever met Paul. And without Paul, I have no idea where I would be right now.

John Dehlin [00:06:22] Yeah, you may not have made it fair to say no.

Alex Cooper [00:06:27] I actually had a fake boyfriend while I was talking to Paul and going to school so that I could try to keep it a secret.

John Dehlin [00:06:38] It's fair to call him a beard. Is that fair? Is that fair? Is that offensive? So, Paul, what was that phone call like? Well, who called you?

Paul Burke [00:06:48] Jason called.

John Dehlin [00:06:48] Okay.

Paul Burke [00:06:49] So I was in my office.

John Dehlin [00:06:52] Tell us where you work.

Paul Burke [00:06:53] Just give him a plug. I work at a law firm in Salt Lake City called Ray, Quinney, and Nebeker. It's one of the largest firms and oldest firms in the state. And it's a firm with a tradition of public service, but also a firm that is a reflection of the community in lots of ways. So my phone rang, and I should also say that I was just returning to the office after being away for several months. My brother was in the military, had been struck, had been killed after being in a coma for about four months. So I was about two weeks back from the services at Arlington National Cemetery, and my phone rang, and it was Jason. And Jason said to me, I'm here with a girl. She's in real trouble. Will you talk with her? So I, of course, said yes. So the phone was handed to Alex, and she told me the story that you've pretty much heard so far today. And I was just awestruck. I mean, my jaw dropped. I could not. I wanted to check my calendar to make sure it was still 2011. You know, there was a piece of me that wondered, could this really be true? But I listened very carefully to Alex, and it sounded very real, and I was very concerned. So right in the very first phone call, I offered to represent Alex. I explained to her I'd do it for free. And we formed an attorney client relationship. And right then, we discussed the breadth of that relationship, that I would try to help her with all of her problems, dealing with the custody issues, dealing with the potential prosecution of her girlfriend, and trying to get some accountability for the couple that had been torturing her. The other thing we did in the very first conversation was talk about a game plan, and I wanted to find out how stable the situation was, because I had never done a child welfare case before. This wasn't right up my alley. I had some notions about what we might want to do, but I wasn't certain. And I knew the stakes were really great just from the way Alex was talking. So Alex assured me that the situation at the home was at least stable. So I asked if she could do another 24 hours and give me a chance to make some phone calls and research the law and find out about where we might find a safe place for her. And that's what we agreed to do.

John Dehlin [00:09:28] So, Alex, you brought Paul on, but you didn't immediately say, get me out of here. True. So what led to that situation changing?

Paul Burke [00:09:40] Well, I'm going to interrupt, I'm going to say, because there was something else she did tell me in the first conversation, which was? Call the New York Times.

John Dehlin [00:09:48] Get me out of here.

Paul Burke [00:09:49] She was pretty clear about get me out of here. I knew what my mission was going to be.

John Dehlin [00:09:55] But you didn't ask to be removed that day, right?

Alex Cooper [00:09:58] Right. I didn't want DCFS to come into the house, find nothing, and then leave me there.

John Dehlin [00:10:05] Right. So you. You agree for the time being, to kind of keep quiet about things. Right. What. What changed that led to. To you no longer being able to stick around?

Alex Cooper [00:10:21] While I was actually talking to Paul, I was late to class. And you know those voice messages? Your child was five minutes late to class, so they got one of those, and they told me that I could not be trusted. And I put the backpack back on, and I stood at the wall and they told me no more school.

John Dehlin [00:10:53] And that was the night that you stayed there until when?

Alex Cooper [00:10:58] I. I stood there until around three or four in the morning until Johnny was passed out and I snuck out the back door.

John Dehlin [00:11:12] And what'd you do? Where'd you go?

Alex Cooper [00:11:15] I ran through all these different streets because I didn't want them to find me. I found a bush next to a bus stop, and I got in the bush and just waited for the first bus to come. And when it came, I told the bus driver I didn't have any money and I needed to get to the high school, and she drove me to the high school.

John Dehlin [00:11:46] And about what time did you get to the high school?

Alex Cooper [00:11:50] Early, before it opened. So I hid in this, like, weird crack thing in the wall outside of the high school until the doors opened. And I went in and told Delsey I couldn't go back. She needed to do something.

John Dehlin [00:12:15] And so what'd they do?

Alex Cooper [00:12:17] DCFS came and the police, and Paul called Paul.

Paul Burke [00:12:23] Jason called me. So we knew at that point that we had to have DCFS involved. But during the 24 hours, while, unfortunately, Alex was dealing with that situation, I used the time to reach out to some of the leading gay rights and child welfare organizations in the country. And you might be Interested to hear what one of the leading gay rights lawyers in the country told me when I was asking for advice about what do I do to help this girl? And she. After I explained what was going on in the home, after I explained that she had tried at least once to take her own life, and after I explained that this is in St. George, Utah, this advocate told me, put her on a Greyhound. California. I didn't believe that Alex could get a fair shake from the authorities here in Utah or the courts in Utah. Now, that's obviously not something I can do. I couldn't have ethically put her on a bus to California. She was in the legal custody of these people. But it gives you some indication of the concern that people even across the country had about this situation when they heard about it from the start. So when Jason Nix called me, then it was time for DCFS to get involved. And at that point, Alex was in the custody of the state of Utah. And there began another epic story and a really important legal battle that we could not completely have foreseen.

The Legal Battle for Alex's Freedom

John Dehlin [00:13:53] Yeah. So we certainly don't have time to go into it, and we want to give people lots of reasons to buy the book and read it. But maybe I was stunned. So talk at a super high level about what the process was to kind of set her free, so to speak.

Paul Burke [00:14:08] Well, initially, we had a shelter hearing to decide whether she belonged in the custody of the state of Utah. And initially, we had the state of Utah take the position through the attorney general's office that Alex's parents, they argued, had a fundamental constitutional right to determine her sexual orientation. So the state of Utah took that position initially. Fortunately, I was able to argue against that, and the judge even pushed back on that position. But that tells you the starting point. The starting point was that the state of Utah was going to be deferential to the wishes of these parents, even though Alex had come into the state's custody with these crazy allegations about, you know, backpacks and rocks and standing against a wall.

John Dehlin [00:14:57] How is that a matter of law, deciding who can determine her sexual orientation?

Paul Burke [00:15:04] It's not.

John Dehlin [00:15:05] Why would they want. I don't know. Why would they want to rule on that?

Paul Burke [00:15:10] The argument was this. The argument was that parents have a fundamental right to raise their children and to raise their children, for example, in a religious tradition or with moral values. So from that, the. And the state was arguing that the parents had the right to impose their religious views about morality. And it also betrays what the state's view about homosexuality is. The state Like Alex's parents viewed it as a choice that Alex was somehow making instead of an immutable characteristic, instead of it being an integral part of who she is. So much of the legal battle that we had, you know, for almost a year was over that very notion. Is this something that Alex is, or is it just a behavior or a conduct that she's chosen to engage in?

John Dehlin [00:15:58] But how would that affect outcome? You know, how would, you know, arguing over whether she is truly, you know, lesbian or really straight, just with some problematic behaviors or temptations. How does that determine outcome in terms of her custody legally?

Paul Burke [00:16:17] Well, I mean, ultimately, her custody was going to be decided based on whether she had experienced abuse and who could provide a safe home for her. And there was a point where the state of Utah, a guardian ad litem, a lawyer who was appointed to represent Alex's best interest, the Division of Child and Family Services, all wanted to send Alex back to her parents with essentially no conditions. And, you know, Alex was legitimately fearful that her parents would try to change her again because they didn't accept that this is who she was. They just viewed it as a behavior that she had been groomed to engage in. So, you know, before this hearing, Alex told me that she could not go back to her parents under those conditions. And it sent just a chill up my back because as a lawyer, I'm concerned because everyone's lined up against us. We're in southern Utah. We have a judge who has been a guardian ad litem, and I thought could be deferential to the guardian ad litem. And I was really worried that Alex was going to get sent home under those conditions. But Alex, as you've heard, has some steel in her own backbone, and she told me to go fight them. So fortunately, we were able to persuade the judge on that day not to send her back. And that was a big victory that day, not to send her back without any conditions.

John Dehlin [00:17:50] Yeah. So, Alex, just really briefly, and I actually spoke with someone who's. I think she's here, who's served as a guardian ad litem. And it's actually very common for children who have been physically or sexually abused to still want to go back to be with their family. And did you want to go back and be with your parents?

Alex Cooper [00:18:12] Yes, I did.

John Dehlin [00:18:14] Were you conflicted at all, given that sort of. They had sent you there and that you had tried to tell them what was going on and they turned a blind eye? Another obvious question, but why would you still want to go back under those circumstances?

Alex Cooper [00:18:29] Because my I know my parents didn't do any of this to hurt me. Who wants to hurt their kid? I mean, I'm not a parent, but I have a cat. And I would never send my cat.

John Dehlin [00:18:47] I would do that to your cat.

Alex Cooper [00:18:48] I would never do that to my cat.

John Dehlin [00:18:51] Mini backpack. Be terrible.

Alex Cooper [00:18:54] So I know everything that they did. They. They thought it was the best thing. They were trying to help me.

Paul Burke [00:19:01] Let me say this. When I first heard Alex's story, there was a piece of me that wanted to believe that her parents must be monsters who would send their kid away and have this happen. But of course, I got to meet her parents. And the first time I met her father, if looks could have killed, I would have been down nine or 10 lives. But I could tell just right from the beginning how much love there was in the family, both from what Alex was telling me and from what her parents, you know, what they were saying and how they were behaving. And I think the title of this book, Saving Alex, is really right on in that everyone in the book thought they were saving Alex. Her parents thought that they were sending her away and putting her through something that was difficult, but they thought they were saving her from something worse. And the couple that did this to her, that was their justification, too. Fortunately, of course, Alex saved herself. And that's what makes this such an inspiring story.

John Dehlin [00:20:07] But the parents are good people. I also think you really love your parents, right?

Alex Cooper [00:20:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:16] There's a really sweet moment in the book when they actually let you kind of. Kind of be alone with your mom and cuddle with her. Talk about that just really briefly.

Alex Cooper [00:20:30] I got to just hug my mom for the first time in a really long time. And. I felt. Just felt happy to be able to do that.

John Dehlin [00:20:48] So, Paul, tell us how the state of Utah responded to you wanting to be Alex's attorney. This is, to me, was mind blowing.

Paul Burke [00:20:57] Well, the state of Utah didn't think highly of the idea right from the very beginning. The state of Utah took the position that Alex didn't have the right to have her own lawyer. And the theory was that the Guardian ad Litem, which is a lawyer appointed by the court to represent the, quote, best interests of ale. The state took the position that that had to be her lawyer. And the problem we had in this case was that her guardian ad litem had a different idea of what would be in Alex's best interest than Alex did. You know, the Guardian ad Litem wanted to send Alex home at the point I told you about before, without condition, basically, without Condition. Actually, the only conditions were on Alex. There weren't going to be conditions on the parents. After we prevailed that day, the state of Utah got really mad, and guess who they got? Ma at the state of Utah, threatened my license to practice law, threatened to file a bar grievance against me, and filed a motion to disqualify me in the district court. And at the next hearing, the district court thanked me, said that, you know, the judge said she appreciated what I'd done, but she was kicking me out of the case and was not going to allow me to represent Alex anymore. At that point, Alex's guardian ad litem and the state of Utah entered into an agreement to enter a final adjudication in the case. Now, Alex had come into the system because she had been abused, but her guardian ad litem and the state stipulated to change the case to determine that Alex had been. That Alex was ungovernable was the finding. And they concluded that she was ungovernable because she had been, among other things, sexually promiscuous because she had a girlfriend. So her own lawyer, essentially the lawyer who was supposed to look out for her best interests, somehow believed that was in Alex's best interest to label her as ungovernable and sexually promiscuous, which was just stunning. So you can imagine that my final efforts at that point were to preserve all of Alex's rights to appeal that adjudication, and to appeal the ejection of her lawyer, her chosen lawyer, from the case.

John Dehlin [00:23:21] You have to fight for your own ability to represent a client who's asked you to represent them.

Paul Burke [00:23:27] This is what you want from every free client, right?

John Dehlin [00:23:32] Right.

Paul Burke [00:23:35] So that led us to a journey. We filed multiple appeals at the. At the Utah Court of Appeals up in Salt Lake City. We filed one appeal of the decision to disqualify me. We filed another appeal of the final adjudication, and we also challenged the constitutionality of the guardian ad litem statute. And we took issue with the fact that the legislature said it was not a conflict for the lawyer, the guardian ad litem, to ignore Alex's wishes. And we said that's not consistent with the Utah Supreme Court's mandate that lawyers follow the instructions of their clients. So we were fortunate that the court of appeals entered an emergency order that reinstated my ability to represent Alex, and that also put us procedurally in a posture where we could challenge the constitutionality of that statute. And, you know, I think the Attorney General's office at that point was concerned that our appeal might be successful and that the guardian ad litem system would be in deep trouble here in Utah. And that provided us with the leverage to get people to sit down and talk with us about what Alex wanted. So what happened next was that we had an appellate mediation where we got all the parties around the table, and we were able to negotiate an agreement that reflected what Alex wanted. So it was really the appellate decision that gave us the ability to really turn the tables and finally get the district court and her parents and the state to listen to what Alex needed to live openly as a gay teenager in the state of Utah.

Alex Cooper [00:25:26] So the.

John Dehlin [00:25:26] The final terms were the.

Paul Burke [00:25:28] We entered a final order that reversed everything that had happened up until that point, that reopened the investigation against the couple so that we could move to have them held accountable. And it. And that placed Alex back with her parents, but with conditions. And this is what Alex wanted. She wanted her parents to not be able to try to change her sexual orientation. She didn't want them to talk about her sexual orientation unless they were in family counseling. She wanted the consent so that she could continue to be part of the Gay Straight alliance at her school. She wanted to be able to go to pride events in Salt Lake City. And then, most importantly, Alex wanted to be able to date girls. So this was the hardest challenge she gave me at this point, because the state of Utah did not want to accept an order that said it was okay to date girls. But we had a lot of leverage, and it took us several weeks, but we got an order that said that Alex had the right to engage in normal teenage activities, including dating females. So off to prom.

John Dehlin [00:26:55] How was that, Alex?

Alex Cooper [00:26:56] I had fun.

Paul Burke [00:26:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:59] I want to ask you about that. Excellent. So you got to be reunited with your parents. And do you want to talk just briefly about how that was?

Alex Cooper [00:27:14] It was really weird at first, but it got better. They went to PFLAG meetings.

John Dehlin [00:27:22] Tell us what PFLAG is.

Alex Cooper [00:27:24] Awesome. Parents and Friends of Lesbian and Gay. It's. It's amazing. If you have a kid who just came out or is struggling, go to one of these meetings. They're great.

John Dehlin [00:27:45] They're around different cities around Utah and around the country, and it's a real supportive group. Right. So your parents went to PFLAG?

Alex Cooper [00:27:54] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:27:54] In St. George?

Alex Cooper [00:27:56] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:27:57] How was that?

Alex Cooper [00:28:00] They were super mad that they had to go, but they came back from their first meeting, and I could just tell it made such a difference.

John Dehlin [00:28:13] Excellent. So go P. Flag. And.

Tyler Glenn [00:28:18] Yeah.

Prosecution Efforts and Aftermath

John Dehlin [00:28:18] And so I think the last part of the book, that's a little bit other than Sort of saying where things are now is your efforts to go back and prosecute the couple. Talk about what. Was that a difficult decision for you? And if so, how.

Paul Burke [00:28:36] Why?

Alex Cooper [00:28:38] Yeah, it. At first, I really. I wanted them to go to jail. I wanted them to have their kids taken away. I wanted it to be right. But seeing them and having to look at them and watching them lie and make eye contact with me at the same time killed me. And I just turned 18, and I wanted to get out of Utah, so kidnapped my girlfriend and moved to Portland.

John Dehlin [00:29:10] Okay. But you did end up prosecuting them, or at least.

Paul Burke [00:29:15] Well, I'm not sure I'm going to use the word. Prosecute may not be the right word. But what ended up happening is we negotiated. So the Division of Child and Family Services reopened its investigation of the couple, and DCFS ultimately made a finding that there had been child abuse that caused a juvenile court case to be opened because they had their own children taken from them. As part of that, we didn't have a lot of confidence that the state of Utah was going to be enthusiastically prosecuting this couple. So what we did was essentially do our own investigation of them. I sent subpoenas to the teen crisis centers that they had worked at, and then ultimately noticed up the depos of the couple. And so I put them, with Alex's help, we put them under oath, and our objective was to get them to admit to as much of this conduct as we could. We wanted them to either, if not that, we wanted them to lie outrageously about what they had done so that we could hopefully disprove it. And finally, we wanted to try to push them into taking the Fifth Amendment, because the juvenile court proceeding is considered a civil proceeding. So if you take the Fifth Amendment, it's basically the equivalent of making an admission. So we had a very dramatic deposition, you know, the beginning of which they acknowledged, you know, a good part of what they had done, but tried to deny their motivations and deny, you know, a number of things.

John Dehlin [00:30:47] So they. So regarding the claim that Alex had been sent there to have her sexual orientation changed, what was their. What was their claim?

Paul Burke [00:31:00] They tried to argue that it was because, you know, Alex had been ungovernable again and that she had tried drugs. And this was a persistent theme throughout the case. And I was constantly reminding, you know, the other lawyers in the case that Alex's supposed drug use was less significant than that of our last three presidents. But it also put us in a position in the deposition where, as they were telling their story, if they were treating her for drug abuse or other things. The timeframe just didn't line up. It didn't make sense why things happened when they did. So we were able to really undermine that story. And then in the afternoon, because they worked in a crisis center, when we were deposing the woman, I got her to admit that she had received training on the difference between permissible discipline and abuse. And she acknowledged that because we had a big stack of training documents from the teen crisis center that she was at. So she was kind of in a box. So she had to admit that she knew the difference between discipline and abuse. Then I asked her, well, would forcing someone to stand against a wall wearing a backpack, would that be permitted discipline where you work? And again, we had her in a box because if she said yes, she was going to lose her job, and she was already suspended. So she acknowledged that, no, that would be abusive. Then we asked her, well, is the standard, since you're an expert in the standard of abuse, does it differ in different places? Is it the same in your workplace as it would be in your home? And she admitted, the standard is uniform. It's the same. So then we asked the killer question. Well, then, don't you have to admit that by forcing Alex to wear a backpack and stand against the wall for long periods of time, don't you have to admit that that was abuse? At this point, her lawyer jumped up, made a big scene. Don't answer that. Don't answer that. And I asked, are you invoking your Fifth Amendment rights? And the lawyer said, don't answer that. Don't answer that. So I said, fine, I'm gonna make a phone call. And I did something that I've only done one other time in my career, which is to try to call a judge in the middle of a deposition. So I called Judge Staley on a Friday afternoon at about 4:15 and managed to reach her on her cell phone. And she answered, hi, this is Carla. And I quickly explained the situation, and I asked her to order the witness to either answer my question or assert the Fifth Amendment. And the judge granted our request. And right in front of the judge, who is scheduled two weeks later to hear the trial about whether or not they committed child abuse. This woman asserted the Fifth Amendment. So that was meaning what? Well, in the civil context, it was basically the equivalent of admitting that it was true. So it was really the end of her ability to defend herself from the child abuse allegation in the juvenile court.

John Dehlin [00:34:20] Pretty good Perry Mason moment, right?

Guest 1 [00:34:23] Huh?

John Dehlin [00:34:30] I just horribly Dated myself. Because you guys are thinking, who's Perry Mason? Like what? Perry Mason? Raise your hand if you've heard of Perry Mason. Okay. Not too bad. A mind blowing part of that interview was when they asked her for how long of a duration you had been forced to wear that backpack. You know, you have already told us it was a matter of weeks, over a month. What did she claim in the deposition?

Alex Cooper [00:34:57] I think she said an hour or two, tops.

Paul Burke [00:35:02] She got it to five hours. She didn't have a consistent story about this. And she had also been interviewed by the St. George Police. And I had essentially the transcript of her interview with the police. So I was able to cross examine her to show that she didn't have a consistent story about how long or how many days. And she was just, in my view, making it up as she went along in the deposition. And I think that's what Alex thought too.

John Dehlin [00:35:28] And Alex, there was a really wonderful moment in the deposition. Do you want to talk about that?

Alex Cooper [00:35:34] Which moment?

John Dehlin [00:35:36] Didn't you have a particularly strong reaction at one point?

Alex Cooper [00:35:40] I did have a strong reaction. Paul got me out of there, though.

John Dehlin [00:35:44] What'd you do, tell the other?

Alex Cooper [00:35:47] I said some words, I screamed a little.

Paul Burke [00:35:51] You learned that she has a four letter vocabulary. So Alex, actually it was at the end of the deposition, the deponent, she was defeated in a way. She knew what it meant. Her lawyer certainly knew what it meant. And there was an exchange, and it was an increasingly vigorous exchange between Alex and this woman. And ultimately I had to help Alex out of the room.

John Dehlin [00:36:21] I thought it was weird that. I think she began the deposition by bringing in her daughter and asking if her daughter could. What?

Alex Cooper [00:36:28] Hug me.

Paul Burke [00:36:32] They genuinely going back to the title about saving Alex. Even at the beginning of this deposition, they genuinely believed, or at least wanted us to believe that they thought they were helping Alex. At the beginning of the deposition, my strategy was to ask them, how were you helping Alex? Because I knew they had to have some answer for that. She wasn't in St. George for no reason. And that's what launched them into telling us about a lot of the methods that you've heard about today, because they genuinely thought they were helping.

John Dehlin [00:37:03] So is there any legal outcome to that deposition? Just sort of. What was the legal kind of conclusion or consequences?

Paul Burke [00:37:13] There was an adjudication a couple of weeks later where they had to negotiate a resolution where they acknowledged that there had been child abuse. The next step, you know, would have been to file a criminal prosecution. And up until that point, Alex's marching Orders to me were to try to make that happen. And my law partner, Brett Tolman, whom some of you May Know, former U.S. attorney, had helped me connect with the wasatch. I'm sorry, the Washington county attorney. And we had meetings about encouraging the prosecution of this couple and potentially the filing of hate crimes charges. But ultimately, Alexand I could let Alex speak to this, but she changed my marching orders because she decided it was time for her to move along with her life. So ultimately, we ended up going back to the Washington County Attorney's office and asking them not to pursue criminal charges so that Alex could move on with her life.

John Dehlin [00:38:17] Anything you want to say about that decision, Alex? Like

Alex Cooper [00:38:22] I don't regret it?

John Dehlin [00:38:23] Yeah. Why?

Alex Cooper [00:38:24] Because I'm happy.

John Dehlin [00:38:26] Yeah?

Alex Cooper [00:38:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:27] So where are you now? Tell us how you're doing now and what you're doing.

Alex Cooper [00:38:31] I live in Portland with my girlfriend.

John Dehlin [00:38:36] Here she is.

Alex Cooper [00:38:37] I work at.

Paul Burke [00:38:39] Beautiful girlfriend.

John Dehlin [00:38:40] My beautiful girlfriend of how many years?

Alex Cooper [00:38:44] Three and a half.

John Dehlin [00:38:45] Three and a half years. Tell us what she's meant to you during this time.

Alex Cooper [00:38:50] Everything.

Paul Burke [00:38:54] How has she supported you?

Alex Cooper [00:38:57] She's been there for me in every way.

John Dehlin [00:39:02] Tell us her name.

Alex Cooper [00:39:03] Alina.

John Dehlin [00:39:04] Alina. Do we want to give Alina a round of applause?

Alex Cooper [00:39:15] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:39:15] So you and Alina are. Portland.

Alex Cooper [00:39:18] I work at the women's shelter,

Tyler Glenn [00:39:25] And

Alex Cooper [00:39:27] I'm having a really good time.

John Dehlin [00:39:29] Yeah.

Alex Cooper [00:39:29] Eating a lot of food. Food carts in Portland are amazing. You guys should go.

John Dehlin [00:39:33] The food carts?

Alex Cooper [00:39:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:35] Okay.

Alex Cooper [00:39:35] So good.

Writing the Book and Reflections on Recovery

John Dehlin [00:39:37] And what made you decide to write this book?

Guest 2 [00:39:39] What.

John Dehlin [00:39:40] What was your goal or intent?

Alex Cooper [00:39:42] I think if my parents had typed in conversion therapy to the computer and a book popped up, they'd probably read it and I wouldn't have been sent there. So I want parents to read this. I want to end conversion therapy completely.

John Dehlin [00:40:17] And what's the response? Been to the book so far?

Alex Cooper [00:40:20] Good. It's been good.

John Dehlin [00:40:23] You pleased?

Alex Cooper [00:40:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:25] I imagine you're kind of a private person, so I imagine it's maybe not the easiest to have these details, to be reliving them, even tonight. Right, Right. But I'm guessing it's worth it for you.

Alex Cooper [00:40:38] It is, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:40] To help others. Paul, how about for you? How's this journey been for you?

Paul Burke [00:40:44] Well, it's been very rewarding to have been able to help Alex through this journey and to see her family now and to hear about her family is actually really remarkable. That they've been able to reconcile and that Alex has a great life. If you had told me that this would be the outcome when that first phone call came, in. And when she described the situation she was in then, I'm not sure I would believe that she was able to get to this point. But I think it's a story that provides real hope and I think it's proof that conversion therapy can be ended and that the community that ultimately led her to this dark place can itself overcome it.

John Dehlin [00:41:33] So, Alex, if there is a young lesbian person or a lesbian female or gay male, or someone who's bisexual or trans, maybe in the audience or in the listening audience, maybe they're really clinging to their faith. Maybe they're struggling with their identity. Maybe they're considering praying or going to a support group with the intent to change. Or maybe they're just comfortable with who they are, but struggling with being open about that and fearing the consequences of being open and honest about who they are. Do you have any thoughts or tips for them?

Alex Cooper [00:42:22] Don't come out until it's safe. And if you are trying to change who you are, stop. It's not going to work. I can put in some blue contacts, but my eyes are still going to be brown. So you do you boo, boo.

John Dehlin [00:42:49] And Paul, is it, is it fair to say that these programs persist in Utah?

Paul Burke [00:42:56] You know, I can't say that with absolute certainty, but I think there's reason for concern. Over the years, I think there's been a shift where, you know, maybe a decade ago and even before that, you know, it was not uncommon for people to go literally to be changed, to have the idea that they could stop being gay. Today, I think it's shrouded more to the extent it happens, I think it's shrouded in the context of teen crisis and that for some families it remains a crisis when their child comes out to them. And I think there are still crisis centers here in the state of Utah that will accept teens in those circumstances, and particularly if the family has a gold plated insurance policy.

John Dehlin [00:43:47] Right.

Paul Burke [00:43:48] So, you know, this remains a scourge that needs to be addressed. Ideally, you know, the state of Utah would take rank with the other states in this, with several other states in this country that have outlawed conversion therapy to make it clear that it's a fraud, that it's futile, and that what gay kids need is affirmation, support, and the acknowledgement that they are who they are and they should be supported for being truthful and for living, as Alex does, an authentic life.

John Dehlin [00:44:23] And has there been legislation proposed to outlaw conversion therapy for minors in Utah or is that in the works?

Paul Burke [00:44:31] Not yet here in Utah, but thanks to Equality Utah, whose director, Troy Williams, is here today. I know it's on the agenda,

Alex Cooper [00:44:43] and

Paul Burke [00:44:43] I'm confident that it will happen someday here in Utah.

John Dehlin [00:44:47] And part of the proceeds from tonight's event is going to go towards Equality Utah. And I just want to encourage everyone to support Troy and his good work. Let's make that happen. All right?

Guest 2 [00:44:59] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:45:03] All right, well, why don't we go ahead and open up the floor to just a few questions, and we need you to come up to the mic because this is being recorded if you're comfortable. If you're not, then you can just try and speak your question really loudly and I may repeat it. There's a Rovi mic. Okay, There's a mic back there in the back. Let's just take a few questions. So the hand here in the back, do you want to run to the mic or are you comfortable?

Paul Burke [00:45:40] So, Alex, you mentioned that there were two other boys there when you arrived and the third who came after. And so my question is twofold. One, were these boys also queer and was that the reason they were there? And two, how were they treated? Were they treated in similar ways to you? What did they do? How was the situation for them? To the extent that you can talk about it,

Alex Cooper [00:46:03] they were there because they were gay. I think they were treated worse than I was. I didn't have to hold a stack of encyclopedias while I faced a wall. And they did. And. A lot of the times they had to box each other or Johnny would step in and do the boxing. So in a lot of ways, they had it much worse than I did.

John Dehlin [00:46:41] Thank you. Feel free to come up here to the mic or I'll repeat it. How did the wonderful Dr. Joanna Brooks come into this equation, Paul?

Paul Burke [00:46:59] Well, actually, it was one of my law partners. One of my law partners named John Mackey heard this story and found it so compelling that he thought it needed to be shared. And he knew of Joanna Brooks and believed that she was the right person to help Alex tell this story because of Joanna's sensitivity to the situation. Joanna's background as a Mormon herself. And John believed that Joanna could help Alex write a book that wouldn't be just a diatribe, but could be something valuable for the entire community. So my law partner, John Mackey, gets the credit for making that connection.

John Dehlin [00:47:40] Alex, you want to say anything about Joanna and give her a shout out? What would you like to say to her?

Alex Cooper [00:47:49] This wouldn't have been possible without Joanna. Joanna's amazing. Best ghostwriter ever. She's a lot more Than a ghostwriter, though. She's somebody that I can go to with anything. She's always there. I wish she was here tonight.

John Dehlin [00:48:05] Can we give Joanna a little round of applause? Is that all right? Love you, Joanna. All right, Paul, do you want to add anything to the love fest?

Paul Burke [00:48:20] No, I just. It was a privilege to represent Alex, and I'm just so grateful that we were able to. To reach the resolution we did. And I'm grateful that Alex is in my life now.

John Dehlin [00:48:32] Anything you want to say about Alex, about Paul? Really quick, Alex. Aw, sweet. Okay, a couple more questions. Yes, I have the mic, so I

Guest [00:48:45] can then grab it.

John Dehlin [00:48:46] Mic rules. That's Kate Kelly, everybody.

Audience Questions and Community Response

Guest [00:48:48] My name is Kate and I, first of all, thank you for sharing your story and being so courageous. It's obviously a very personal and painful journey, so thank you so much. I find it.

Alex Cooper [00:49:03] I haven't read the book.

Guest [00:49:04] I'm excited to read the book, but what it sounds like to me is more of just a story of child abuse, abuse, and neglect as opposed to other types of conversion therapy we've heard about that are more a program or a specific organization dedicated to converting gay people. And I think it sounds like to me, the types of abuse and neglect in private homes that is happening might not be able to be legislated. And this is Mormon stories. And we haven't talked very much about the Mormon Church and the culture that propagates this type of abuse. And I can remember as a Mormon person thinking. I can remember thinking, and it was a long time ago, that it was throwing a lifeline to people to help them not be gay. And so can you talk about the influence of the Mormon Church, maybe, you know, any of the panelists and how we can change that culture? Because I know there are a lot of Mormon people who, no matter what the legislation is, aren't going to change until the church changes this issue and stops being blatantly oppressive to LGBQIA people.

John Dehlin [00:50:18] Well, thanks, Kate.

Paul Burke [00:50:20] Let me take issue with one aspect of the question. Conversion therapy is inherently abusive because whether or not conversion therapy involves forcing somebody to wear a backpack full of rocks or not, even if it's just emotional, it's abusive. It's rejecting a child. It's rejecting a teenager's identity. And that puts the teenager at risk. And it's dangerous and it's abusive. And that's why conversion therapy in all of its forms needs to be made illegal. The distinction is, you know, at least the suggestion that conversion therapy could be something other than abusive. It was even Suggested by the statement that the LDS Church issued yesterday in response to Alex's story. The church said very clearly that it condemns practices that are abusive. But the church didn't come out and say that conversion therapy in all of its forms is abusive. And the problem is that leaves space for members of the church and other people in the community to think that, well, maybe there's a form of conversion therapy that would not be abusive. And if you combine that with a church that sends signals of disapproval about gay people, you can understand why parents like Alex's believed that they should try to help their child be saved from same sex attractions. So before Alex answers, I just want to make clear that conversion therapy in all of its forms is abusive and should be outlawed.

John Dehlin [00:52:07] Yeah, I'll just add to that. In our study, we surveyed again 1612 Mormons and former Mormons who were LGBTQ or same sex attracted. And about 2/3 of them had engaged in some form of sexual orientation change efforts. They averaged three different ways of attempting change through a psychotherapy or group was sort of one of the less common ways. The more common ways, as I mentioned, were personal righteousness, speaking with a bishop or an ecclesiastical leader like a bishop. And interestingly enough, what we found out of about the thousand plus who actually engaged in some sort of sexual orientation change effort, 0% reported an elimination of their same sex attraction. In addition, There was about 3.6% who reported some slight fluctuation, either a decrease in same sex attraction or an increase in other sex attraction. Conversely, about 40% of those who engaged in these attempts at change reported it as being harmful or severely harmful. So if you could imagine repair therapy being a drug that the FDA had to approve 0% of the time, would that drug have actually achieved its intended goal? And in reality, it was 10 times more likely to result in harm than it was to result in any perceived benefit. And so conversion reparative therapy. And this study has been published in the Journal of Counseling Psychology, which is an APA approved backed journal. We published about eight studies from this one study. And just reparative therapy just fails on every account. And it's really important to note that we can talk about these groups and we can talk about therapists, but again, we have to realize that sometimes the most insidious form, and I'm going off on a soapbox a bit, the most insidious form of reparative therapy is sort of this message that you need to pray harder, you need to become more righteous, need to put your faith in Jesus. Now I'M not anti religious. I'm not against people being Christian or believing in Christ. But when your religion is sort of aimed at you like a gun, basically saying, put your faith in Christ and he will take this from you. And I was priming you a bit to talk about this. When the person takes that seriously and pleads, and sometimes eight to 10 to 15 years, sometimes longer, they engage in these efforts of making these deep bargains with God. Take this away from me, I'll be extra righteous. I'll take two callings, I'll take three callings. I'll go to the temple weekly. Some people would fast for multiple days at a time, all in this effort to try and make it go away. When. When you plead to God and you ask for him to take it away and he doesn't, and then you see people standing up saying, it worked for me, it worked for me, that leads you with one real conclusion, and that's that you're the broken one, that you're the one that's unredeemable, that you're so bad and so broken that you're not even worth God's efforts at changing. That's when reparative therapy becomes often fatal for these people. And so we have to realize that it's much deeper and more involved than just stamping out these camps or these therapists. It's working to change this message that putting faith in Jesus or in God is going to be the answer, because that's actually the most damaging message people can receive.

Paul Burke [00:55:50] That's absolutely true. And. And ultimately, gay teenagers need to, like all teenagers, need to have hope for their future. And they need to have hope that they can fall in love, that they can be married, and that they can have their own families. And unfortunately, in this state and in many others, in large part due to religious traditions, there are kids who don't believe that they can have that. And that's really unfortunate. And. And those kids need to have hope. They need to have the support of their communities. The law has made great strides in the last few years, and so has society. And that's why I remain hopeful that even Utah will someday change.

John Dehlin [00:56:37] Okay, so I know you guys have a lot of questions. I think we should go ahead and wrap up. I want to ask Alex one quick question, then I'm going to bring up a friend. So, Alex, if there are any parents here or within the sort of range of our podcast or listening audience, who discover that they have a gay or lesbian or bisexual child or trans child, and they're A faithful, believing church member. Do you have any advice for those parents?

Alex Cooper [00:57:13] Don't be weird. Treat your child like they're normal because they are normal, and be there to support them because they're gonna have a rough time.

John Dehlin [00:57:25] And what if they're taught that how their child is is evil or bad? What would you say to that parent who had, just like your parents had that very sincere belief?

Alex Cooper [00:57:35] That's just dumb. That's super dumb.

John Dehlin [00:57:40] But what if it's their sacred, sincere belief? Could you make a plea that might not hurt their feelings quite as bad? What would your plea be?

Alex Cooper [00:57:54] I would take a step back and decide if you. If you want. If any type of this kind of therapy is going to damage your child. Do you want to damage your child? No. Parents don't want to do that. So just don't. It's going to be okay. They've probably had some time to think about it and deal with it before they've talked to you. So just give yourself some time to think about it and come to terms with it, because your child being in your life is really important.

John Dehlin [00:58:31] So the ultimate answer of how to treat the child is what?

Alex Cooper [00:58:35] Be nice. Be supportive.

John Dehlin [00:58:38] Loving.

Alex Cooper [00:58:39] Loving. All the things.

Paul Burke [00:58:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:58:42] It's worth mentioning Caitlin Ryan's Family Acceptance Project here. Caitlin Ryan is a researcher out of San Francisco State University. She tried to sort of tease out, you know, the most important factors in what leads to things like drug use, risky sexual behavior, and even suicide. And the project that she came up with is called the Family Acceptance Project. And what she found is that if a LGBT youth experiences a high level of rejection from their family, which includes being kicked out of their home, there's a serious homelessness problem here. But also just, you know, pushing them to try and change rejection, making them feel bad about how they are. Any sort of serious familial rejection, makes that child three times more likely to engage in risky sexual behavior, three times more likely to engage in drug use, and eight times more likely to attempt suicide. And so if you want your child to survive and thrive, don't reject them, love them. Is that fair to say?

Paul Burke [00:59:49] All right,

John Dehlin [00:59:51] I want to bring up Stephanie really quick. Stephanie, are you here? Stephanie, we have a member of our local community who has an idea, and the idea is just in its very early stages. How many of you are from Provo Orem, Utah county area? All right. And there's many in our listening audience as well. Stephanie, can you come up to the microphone? Is that all right? And just tell us what your idea is and we can talk about how to get a hold of you if anyone else wants to support.

Guest 2 [01:00:23] All right, I'm not ready for this, but the idea is, let's first say in Ogden, there is a place that's been around, what, 15 years? I think it's been around about 15 years that's been helping LGBT youth. Well, it's called the Outreach Resource Center. They've expanded into Brigham City, Logan, also, I think Clearfield. We don't have anything, as far as any of us know, in Utah County. I would believe if there's anywhere that there's a need, it's right here. The goal would be, first of all, to save lives. Second of all, to give these kids love, let them know they're okay as is, and to help their families accept them and love them for who they are. I'd also like to change this community to make it a safe place for everyone. We need your support in any way, any talent you've got to share with these kids. If you can help paint a house for us, if you've got money to contribute, if you've got time to mentor, we need it. And I think this group right here is probably our biggest allies. So please help us. I've been harassing John, and he's got our back, so thank you.

John Dehlin [01:01:54] How could people. You can email me@johndelinmail.com, i'll put you in touch with Stephanie. Is there any other way they can reach out? Is that the best way?

Guest 2 [01:02:01] We checked. If you'll set up the domain, we can do the House of Humanity, which I'd like to teach people. We're all humans. It's about love. And so right now, the hope is it will be called the House of Humanity. I'd like it downtown Provo, where it's close to the homeless shelters where they feed people, where the temple is, where business is, you know, so that we're visual yet. We want it to be a safe place for youth to come and feel safe. As of right now, it's Stephanie larsonmail.com. my name is spelled incorrectly, so it's all E's. Stephanie with an e. And they'll never remember that. So the sooner we can get up a domain, and maybe John will put that out. That's the best way.

Paul Burke [01:02:50] Okay.

Guest 2 [01:02:51] Okay, thank you.

John Dehlin [01:02:52] You guys interested?

Alex Cooper [01:02:54] All right.

John Dehlin [01:02:56] Thank you, Stephanie. How many of you are interested in being a part of that? Anybody? All right. All right. I think we've got something good going on here that maybe can start today. How would you guys feel about Giving Alex and Paul a round of applause for their courage.

Guest 2 [01:03:24] It.

John Dehlin [01:03:51] Excellent. Okay, so I did all the acknowledgments at the beginning. I'll just say, again, thanks for your support of Mormon Stories and the Open Stories Foundation. Please support us there. Please support Stephanie and the good work that she's hoping to do. We want to thank, again, Velour for sponsoring us. We want to thank Troy Williams and Equality Utah for also being our sponsor. Please check out their booth in the back. Please support the Equality Utah and the Allies Dinner and all the other things. They have some exciting stuff coming up. Please purchase books with benchmark books. We want to again thank them for hosting us. We want to thank Joanna Brooks, Harper Collins and all those who have been a part of making this possible. Richard and Chad, Lindsey, Hanson park and Sunstone. And again, if any of you are interested in our Mormon transitions support retreat April 1st through 3rd, we'd love to have you. So we want to thank you for coming out. Please join us@mormonstories.org to comment about this episode. Please share Mormon Stories with your friends and family. Please consider donating to support us. We'll do this as long as you guys feel like it's worth it. And then when it's no longer worth it, I'll go do other things. But until then, I'm committed to you guys as long as you're committed to supporting us. And with that, how would you guys like to hear maybe a song or two more from Tyler? Anyone interested? So maybe let's bring Tyler back out. Let's give Tyler and Brandon a round of applause.

Closing Remarks and Final Tribute

Guest 1 [01:05:43] Thank you guys once again for coming out tonight. Tonight holds a special place in my heart because the cause. And I reached out to. This is Brandon from my band Neon Trees. He's joining me tonight. I reached out kind of wanting to know if Alex had a song that. That she loved or that, like, maybe fit the mood or the theme of the night. And the response I got was kind of a curious one, but I think it has actually a great kind of relatable message. The answer was Rehab by Amy Winehouse. So they tried to send her to gay rehab, and she said, no, no, no. Oh, yep, we got it. We're putting on a show. Chance, come on.

Tyler Glenn [01:06:58] They tried to make me go to rehab but I said don't, don't, don't Yes, I been fly but when I come back you don't know I ain't got the time and think that daddy thinks I'm fine He's tried to make me Go to rehab but I won't go, go, go I'd rather be at home with Ray I ain't got 70 days cause there's nothing, there's nothing you can teach me that I can't learn from Mr. Hathaway I didn't get a lot in class But I know it don't come in the shot glass they tried to make me go to rehab but I won't go, go, go Yes, I been black but when I come back and don't, don't do I ain't got the time I think that I did think I'm fine They tried to make me go to rehab but I won't go, go, go the man said why do you think you're here? I said I got no idea

Guest 1 [01:08:44] I'm

Tyler Glenn [01:08:45] gonna, I'm gonna lose my baby so I always keep a bottle near he said I just think you're depress I said I know me baby amber they tried to make me go but I won't go, go, go yes I've been blabbering Come back and don't, don't know. I just ooh I just need a friend I'm not gonna spend 10 weeks make em think that I'm on the mail it's not just, it's not just my pride ooh it's just till these tears they are dry they tried to make me go to rehab. Yes I've been blind but when I come back you know no, no and I ain't got the time I think that that thinks I'm fine They tried to make me call the rehab but I won't go, go, go.

Guest 1 [01:10:47] I just wanted to. I don't know. I've just been feeling so much lately, and I have so much. I have so much pride to be still from Utah and to. I have so much gratitude to be on this stage because this is a place where neon trees began 10 years ago. But I know it was kind of a gamble to have an event like this down in Utah county, and maybe it wasn't, but some people thought it was. So it means a lot that you filled this place. And it also. I'm just so proud to be a gay man in 2016 and open, and I want to do what I can to make people feel happy to be alive. So we're gonna. So we. My band put out our first album six years ago today. So we're gonna play our first breakthrough song. And the night is all Alex's, so give her a round of applause. 1.

Tyler Glenn [01:12:05] Here we go. Again I kind of want to be more than friends so take it easy on me I'm afraid you'll never satisfy Here we go again we're sick like animals we play pretend you're just a cannibal and I am afraid I won't get out alive No, I won't sleep tonight oh, oh, I want some more uh oh, what are you waiting for? Take a bite of my heart tonight uh oh oh, I want some more oh, what are you waiting for? What are you waiting for? Say goodbye to my heart tonight Here we are again I feel the chemicals they're kicking in it's getting heavy and I wanna run and hide

John Dehlin [01:13:19] I want

Tyler Glenn [01:13:20] to run and hide I do it every time you're killing me now and I won't be denied by you the animal inside of you Oh, I want some more? Oh, what are you waiting for? Take a bite of my heart tonight Oh, I want some more oh, what are you waiting for? Yeah, what are you waiting for? Say goodbye to my heart Hush, hush the world is quiet Hush, shush we both can't fight it it's us that made this mess why can't you understand? Oh, I won't sleep tonight I won't sleep oh, oh, I want some more oh, what are you waiting for? Take a bite of my heart tonight oh, I want some boy oh, what are you waiting for? What are you waiting for? Say goodbye to my heart tonight

Guest [01:14:52] thank you.

Tyler Glenn [01:14:54] Good night.

Paul Burke [01:14:55] Thank you very much.

Alex Cooper [01:14:57] Have a nice night.

John Dehlin [01:15:07] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories Podcast. To discuss this podcast with others, please check us out@mormonstories.org to join one of our 80 plus support communities across the globe. Click on the support communities tab@mormonstories.org to keep this podcast alive. Please consider a tax deductible donation today by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org audio and video for this podcast were provided by Richard Holdman. A big thanks to the Saber Rattlers for providing the music for today's episode. The Mormont Stories logo was generously donated by studiocase.com come, come, ye saints.

Tyler Glenn [01:15:45] No toil nor labor fear but with joy wend.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.