Introduction and Sandra Tanner's Background

Chris Thomas [00:00:00] Hello, I'm Chris Thomas. I'm here in the Mormon Stories Studio for a special interview with Sandra Tanner. I want to thank my friend Dr. John Dehlin for making these lovely facilities available for this unique conversation. As you may know, Sandra Tanner has perhaps been interviewed more than than anyone in the broad field of Mormondom.

Chris Thomas [00:00:30] And John Dehlin has spent more time interviewing Sandra than any living human being that I know. So much of her story and that of her husband Gerald has been documented in various places and soon will be in the released, soon to be released biography of their lives, written by the very capable scholar Dr. Ronald Huggins.

Chris Thomas [00:00:59] But today we're going to do a deep dive into one particular subject that has been touched upon here and there, but has never received the attention that in my estimation it is due. We want to chronicle Sandra's and Gerald's journey with the Book of Mormon, which is a fascinating sojourn from believing LDS members to believing Christians who continued to hold the Book of Mormon as scripture, to believing Christians who began to doubt the book scriptural status, to that of critic of the book.

Chris Thomas [00:01:42] And then there are many resulting publications documenting what for them were problematic areas. The story is a complex one, which needs a layered and nuanced recounting. For the sake of full disclosure, I have known Sandra since about 2014, since which time we have become close friends, speaking mainly at long distance, but some occasional dinners when I would pass through Salt Lake City.

Chris Thomas [00:02:14] So, Sandra, thanks for joining me and John for this conversation. It's wonderful to have you with us. And it's wonderful to have this conversation with you.

Sandra Tanner [00:02:24] Well, good.

Chris Thomas [00:02:26] Let's begin by having you tell us just a little bit about life in a famous or infamous family that contains the person from whom you descended. So would you acquaint those who have not heard this story a million times what your lineage is from you know who?

Sandra Tanner [00:02:51] Right. Well, I descend from Brigham Young, second President of the LDS Church, and from his legal wife, Marianne Angel. And Brigham Young, although he went on to have 55 wives, Mary Ann was his legal wife and they had several children. And one of their sons was Brigham Young Jr. Who went on to become an apostle. Well, his dad pushed him into being an apostle, ordaining him when he was just a kid.

Sandra Tanner [00:03:29] Anyways, so he was an apostle, finally put in the Quorum of the twelve, but he was a polygamist as well. Brigham Young had 55 wives, but by the time Brigham Jr got old enough to start marrying women, there was opposition to the Mormons having polygamy. Here in the West. And so he only had four or five wives. The count varies.

Sandra Tanner [00:03:57] But through his third wife, Abby Stevens, he and Abby had a son, Walter, and Walter was my grandfather. And then Walter and Sylvia had a daughter named Georgia, who was my mother. So my mother's maiden name was Young, and she married my dad, Ivan McGee. The McGee's were a family that converted into Mormonism around the 1912 time period after the Mormons had given up polygamy. So.

Chris Thomas [00:04:34] So is Sylvia the grandmother that helped you when you were looking, comparing the Book of Commandments and the Doctrines and Covenants?

Sandra Tanner [00:04:43] Yes.

Chris Thomas [00:04:43] That you talked about before?

Sandra Tanner [00:04:45] Yeah. Sylvia's husband, Walter Young had died and then she had remarried a fellow with the last name of Robinson, but then he had died. And so at the point that I'm meeting Gerald, she's a widow twice over. And she and my mom and my. One of my aunts, Lucille, had all read Fawn Brody and started studying together. So they were on their faith crisis journey when I was in high school and.

Chris Thomas [00:05:20] And your grandma lived up on the avenues, is that right?

Sandra Tanner [00:05:23] Right here in Salt Lake, up on the avenues?

Chris Thomas [00:05:25] Right, right. Well, does, does a lineage like you have, have any. Bring you into any special connection to the Book of Mormon or did. Did Brigham's testimony play in any, any role in your family's belief in the Book?

Early Encounters with the Book of Mormon

Sandra Tanner [00:05:42] Well, no one ever talked about that kind of stuff in my family. My folks had moved down to Southern California during the World War II, which took them out of the Utah Mormon environment, and they had become semi active in the church, preferring to go to the beach every other Sunday or so. So I didn't grow up with a lot of religious discussion. I don't remember my folks having any kind of scripture studies with us kids. We went to the ward periodically. I mean, I was baptized when I was eight, but my father didn't baptize me and I didn't know at the time that that was generally what happened. It was just a man in the ward that baptized me. So because I didn't know that wasn't the norm, I didn't feel left out on anything.

Chris Thomas [00:06:44] And so they had a kind of entrepreneurial enterprise going in California, which played a role in that sort of unusual upbringing for you as an LDS kid?

Sandra Tanner [00:06:58] Yes. After my father got through working at Lockheed during the war, he started his own sewing machine business selling sewing machines. And my mother had learned how to be a seamstress in Salt Lake before they'd moved to California. And so she became a tailor and was half of the business. She taught women how to use the sewing machines after my father sold them one.

Sandra Tanner [00:07:28] And so they started out with the business in the home. In some ways, Gerald's in my life kind of mirrored how theirs went in that regard of starting a business in your home and then finally moving it into its own facility.

Sandra Tanner [00:07:44] So there are a lot of similarities on that. But where the Book of Mormon came into my life was not through the Brigham Young side of the family. It was through my father's side, because the McGee's were all very, very devout Mormons. And my uncle, James Washburn, well, it's actually my father's uncle, my great uncle, I just always called him Uncle Jim. But they had a farm, ranch, whatever you want to call it, down in Draper here in Utah.

Sandra Tanner [00:08:18] And Uncle Jim was known for collecting Native American artifacts. Now, in today's world, I think that would be seen as looting, but at the time, it just seemed like a free for all. If you were walking over some land in Utah and saw an artifact or Indian burial site or whatever, you know, you could just take whatever you wanted home.

Sandra Tanner [00:08:43] And Jim had some. Several rooms of his house full of Book of Mormon, well, full of artifacts from the Native Americans that were presented to me as Book of Mormon evidences. So how could you doubt the Book of Mormon when Uncle Jim had a house full of all the artifacts from the thing?

Chris Thomas [00:09:03] Right?

Sandra Tanner [00:09:04] And my father was very committed to the whole Book of Mormon angle. I remember him taking me and probably others in the family, but I just remember being me with my father to hear Thor Heyerdahl. Most people today have no clue who that was, but he was, what was he, Norwegian or something, and sailed the Kon Tiki from South America to the Polynesian islands to prove there could be transcontinental travel. Now, he isn't trying to prove anything about Mormonism had nothing to do with Mormonism. He just believed that, that there was contact between the islands and the Americas.

Sandra Tanner [00:09:44] And so of course, that played right into Book of Mormon evidences. So when he had some sort of documentary, he would take around and show and give lectures. So I remember my dad taking me to this big to do because it was more proof for the Book of Mormon. So the emphasis for the book came from my father's side, not where you'd think it would have come from the Brigham Young side.

Chris Thomas [00:10:09] And so is it fair to say that some of your most early formative experiences with the Book of Mormon were less with the Book of Mormon than claims about the Book of Mormon as it Came through.

Sandra Tanner [00:10:23] Yes. The whole point was the Book of Mormon is a real history.

Chris Thomas [00:10:25] Gotcha.

Sandra Tanner [00:10:26] We come to Salt Lake on family visits, and there's several places we visited. We visited Great Grandma Young, the last living plural wife of Brigham Young Jr. Up on the Avenues. I would visit Uncle Jim out at his Draper Place and see all the Indian artifacts, and we would go to Temple Square. And Temple Square at the time had a museum with all sorts of Native American artifacts in it. So my baseline for Book of Mormon was all the historical basis it claims more than the content. I really wasn't that exposed to the content of the Book of Mormon as much as all these outward things that were to show that it was actual history.

Chris Thomas [00:11:16] So do you have recollections of when you first either began to read the book or your first copy of the book?

Sandra Tanner [00:11:25] Well, that would go to seminary when I started the Mormon seminary program and the one year we had Book of Mormon. The funny thing on seminary is I went the three years for Book of Mormon, Old Testament, New Testament, and graduated at that point. And so I never took church history.

Sandra Tanner [00:11:46] So if I'd have had that along the way, it might have started questions even sooner. But yeah, in Book of Mormon class, had my own copy and would go through and underline all of the important parts that would be brought up in seminary.

Sandra Tanner [00:12:02] But I didn't go home and read it. I just read whatever would come up in the class and underline the parts that they told you to underline. Well, I could say the same for the Bible, Old and New Testament. I did the same thing in seminary. There, you have to understand, seminary was six in the morning.

Sandra Tanner [00:12:22] And so if I stayed awake, I thought I was doing good, you know, so it was more a matter of me just following the lesson outlines and underlining whatever they said were the important verses. But I had a firm testimony the Book of Mormon had to be true because I'd seen all these artifact.

Chris Thomas [00:12:40] Right.

Sandra Tanner [00:12:41] So there was just no doubt in my mind.

Chris Thomas [00:12:44] Right. And so. So this is the 50s, is that?

Sandra Tanner [00:12:47] Yeah.

Chris Thomas [00:12:47] Right. And do you remember the first. Was it one of those hardback copies of the Book of Mormon?

Sandra Tanner [00:12:54] I believe it was hardback because I don't think at that time they had done paperbacks yet.

Chris Thomas [00:13:00] Gotcha.

Sandra Tanner [00:13:00] That tells you how old I am. I was before paperbacks.

Chris Thomas [00:13:07] So in. In your seminary days, do you have any sort of memories of any distinct spiritual encounters with the Book of Mormon?

Sandra Tanner [00:13:23] No, because it was never. I guess you say in a sense that I didn't. I probably wouldn't have paid attention if that had something about pray to know the Book of Mormon was true kind of stuff, because I had seen the artifact, so of course it was true.

Chris Thomas [00:13:39] Right, right. And how did you, if you recall these distinctions at all, how did you think of the Book of Mormon kind of vis a vis the Bible? I mean, were they. Was it kind of seamless? Was it thought to be cut from the same kind of cloth? Was it kind of distinctive? Or did it all just kind of run together for you?

Sandra Tanner [00:14:04] All ran together, yeah. You studied three books, Bible, Old Testament and New Testament. And that's the cycle of your classes, your seminary. Everything was centered on the three. So in my mind, they all just blended as one.

Chris Thomas [00:14:23] So did you at any point acquire a triple combo?

Sandra Tanner [00:14:28] Yeah, but that wasn't until I met Gerald.

Chris Thomas [00:14:33] Okay, okay. And.

Sandra Tanner [00:14:35] And, but that, again, shows my age, because I didn't have those things early on. They used to print the Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of great Price separate from the Book of Mormon.

Chris Thomas [00:14:45] Right, right. Now, in one of the many hours of interviews with John Dehlin, Dr. John Dehlin, you may. You made some statements about a distinction you were taught with regard to the testimony about the Book of Mormon between knowing and believing. Would you recount that just a little bit?

Knowing Versus Believing in Mormon Testimony

Sandra Tanner [00:15:08] Well, my grandma had this concept that because in testimony meetings, you would get up and say, I know that Joseph's a prophet of God. I know the Book of Mormon's true. And there'd be the standard outline of I know statements. And my grandma's concept was you don't say, you know, you're too young to say, you know, you say, I believe. When you're older and studied it, then you can say, you know. But right now you just say, I believe.

Chris Thomas [00:15:43] And you would. You would have those moments where you would bear that sort of testimony.

Sandra Tanner [00:15:49] Yeah, it didn't come up very often, but in testimony meeting, I would have got up and said, I know it's the only true church. And the standard testimony is the only true church. Joseph Smith's the prophet of God. The Book of Mormon is the word of God. So.

Chris Thomas [00:16:05] And it seems that you were not under a lot of domestic pressure to bear testimony, as some others may have been in the tradition.

Sandra Tanner [00:16:15] No, no, because my parents were kind of lax on their attendance at church. They got more serious about attending when my sister and I started into junior high school because they realized that we were going to end up probably marrying whoever was our friends, and they were worried that my sister, who's three years older, was making the Wrong kind of friends at school, kind of worldly, non Mormon kids. And so they suddenly decided that they better attend church regularly to make sure that we were at our meetings.

Sandra Tanner [00:16:51] So through junior high and high school, my parents were going to church and my dad was roped into being Aaronic priesthood secretary or something. He had to count all the boys that were at church and sacrament meeting. And I had to sit with him to tell him because he didn't know who they were, so I'd have to tell him who was here. And my mother did different sewing lessons and tailoring things for Relief Society at different times. So they got a little more involved at that time, but they were not fully active. They had been married in the temple, but they weren't going to the temple.

Sandra Tanner [00:17:32] Of course, at that time there wouldn't have been one in California. You would have had to go into Utah to have gone to a temple. But it was not something that was a priority. They had quit wearing their garments. They were still in the drawer, but they had quit wearing them.

Sandra Tanner [00:17:52] So they were kind of lax. My grandparents all wore their garments and some of my aunts and uncles and that. So I was fully aware of people that are active, they go to the temple, they wear a certain underwear and that. But my folks had kind of set that aside in their personal lives. So I was free to choose my path religiously. If I'd have chosen, I think they'd been upset if I'd have gone to another church. But they didn't press me to go to church. My activity going to seminary was because I wanted to be in seminary, not because they made me go to seminary. I went to church because I wanted to go to church, not because they pushed me. So it was always my choice.

Chris Thomas [00:18:44] And the same true with institute.

Sandra Tanner [00:18:46] Yeah, right. Yeah. So I started institute in 12th grade as a senior in high school because I graduated from seminary in the 11th grade. So 12th grade I went to. They had just started the institute program down in Southern California. Well, they just started it in the San Fernando Valley. I think they'd had it the year before at USC and ucla, but they just started it in the Valley.

Chris Thomas [00:19:14] And so before we talk about. Before we bring Gerald on the stage, your mom is involved in her own sort of historical quest with the history of the church, spurred a bit by Fawn Brody's no man Knows My History and has tracked down someone that will become rather prominent in the Tanner Orbit, a woman named Pauline Hancock. And Pauline was publishing, so to speak, some little tracts that your mom had come across. Why don't you tell us about that and what that kind of contributed to your formation? Well, Pauline, and anything you've brought along, we're glad to see.

Outside Influences Begin to Raise Doubts

Sandra Tanner [00:20:06] Pauline had been in the reorganized LDS Church and then some issues came up in the reorganized Church that caused some divisions. And she ended up going into the Church of Christ Temple lot group and issues came up with the different ones of their claims. And so eventually she and several families started a study group in a home where they were studying the Bible and Book of Mormon together. And they had come to reject everything that came out from Joseph Smith after the publication of the Book of Mormon.

Sandra Tanner [00:20:46] And so they were a little different than the other splinter groups. But Pauline. Well, they had. They used to print little papers ads in the newspaper. And so this one was one that was done in 1958 from the church of Christ for the Bible Book of Mormon group, talking about the mode of translation the Book of Mormon and addressing the issue of the reorganized Church and the Utah Church, dismissing the three witnesses statements of how the Book of Mormon was translated. So clear back in 58, she's printing a pamphlet arguing that yes, he did use a stone and a hat, that the Urim and Thummim, the spectacles saved with the plates, were not used for what we have in the Book of Mormon today.

Sandra Tanner [00:21:42] So she was way ahead of her time on all of that and saying that we needed to follow the witnesses statements about the stone and the hat. Now, of course, the problem for her was that she didn't think it was the same stone he had used for money digging.

Sandra Tanner [00:21:57] And so to her it wasn't a problem that the Bible spoke against necromancy, contact with the dead and seer stones and that sort of thing, because she felt this was a different stone, a special stone. And later on, years later, when Wes Walters finds the 1826 trial documents where Joseph brought in on charges of fraud because of claiming to be a glass liquor that jolted this little group on their stand on that the stone has to be the same stone he used in money digging that he's using to translate. And then this rock, this little Church of Christ group on their belief of the Book of Mormon.

Sandra Tanner [00:22:43] Well now by that time Pauline had died, but the little church then had to deal with how do we evaluate the same stone being used for. For what they saw as fraud and deception to be used by God for the translation of the Book of Mormon. So she was putting out these little newspaper ads, but they were also doing a lot of research on changes in the Book of Mormon changes in the revelations in these different areas. And somehow my mom had come across her name. I suspect that was through James Wardle, maybe Sam Weller's bookstore, because back in the 50s and 60s, if you wanted to study Mormon history, critical Mormon history, those were people you would have run across.

Sandra Tanner [00:23:34] And so she had contacted the Church of Christ people about these different problem areas. So here I am, a teenager in high school with my mom, throwing all kind of questions about the Book of Mormon, Mormonism in general, the Doctrine and Covenants, history of the Church at me, and I wasn't equipped to know how to answer my mom on anything.

Sandra Tanner [00:23:57] So when Gerald came into the picture, my mom was not happy about that because she knew he was part of that Church of Christ that put out the little newspapers that she thought they were kind of cult group out of, descended out of Mormonism, you know, so.

Chris Thomas [00:24:15] Gotcha, Gotcha. And is. And is it. This is kind of in some ways periphery. But my understanding is that this church was the first church in the restoration, and perhaps only one started by a woman.

Sandra Tanner [00:24:35] Right.

Chris Thomas [00:24:35] Is that right?

Sandra Tanner [00:24:36] Right.

Chris Thomas [00:24:37] And that itself must have been kind of extraordinary.

Sandra Tanner [00:24:40] Well, yes. Pauline felt that in her trying to figure out the whole beginnings of Mormonism and realizing that she couldn't endorse either the reorganized church or the temple lot group, that she felt she had a vision where God spoke to her and told her that she needed to just follow Christ and not follow man, and that these groups were not of him. And so. And she felt that she was called to go out and tell others of what she'd found in Christ and why she couldn't believe these other churches anymore. And so. But then she thought, well, how can I go out and do that as a woman?

Sandra Tanner [00:25:27] And then she felt that God had spoke to her, at least to her mind, that, well, they didn't believe me and I was a man, so you don't need to worry about being a woman. Just go out and tell them what I've said. And so she didn't write up a revelation. I mean, she wasn't trying to be another prophet of a church. She was just trying to share the research she had done.

Chris Thomas [00:25:52] And. And did the 1830 edition figure in prominently for Pauline and. And her kind of group?

Sandra Tanner [00:26:03] Yes. And so they knew about the changes. So did my mom. My mom, in fact, had written to Earl Olson at the LDS Church Historian's office about. About the changes.

Chris Thomas [00:26:16] Yeah. And if you wouldn't mind, give us a couple of examples of the changes.

Sandra Tanner [00:26:19] Oh, well, the ones that were Important to us later on was the changes on the go. For instance, the Book of Mormon originally said Mary would be the mother of God, and it was changed to say Mary would be the mother of the Son of God. And we see Joseph doing that as he starts to differentiate the one God concept of the Book of Mormon into the plural God concept that Mormonism later goes into. So now I don't even know where

Chris Thomas [00:26:48] I was at talking about the 1830 edition.

Sandra Tanner [00:26:51] And it's important how they in Pauline's group, they knew of the changes, so they did not want to use the reorganized Book of Mormon. So when Wilfred Wood came out with his photo reprint of the Book of Mormon, they bought some of those copies and had them rebound to take out the pictures and illustrations that he had put in. And so it was just a pure Book of Mormon. The Reorganized Church had not brought out their photo reprint yet or they wouldn't have had to done this.

Sandra Tanner [00:27:26] But at the time, Mr. Wood's reprint was only one available. So they just rebound it. Now, we didn't rebind ours. We had the Wood reprint. We just used the Utah edition. But I went through and marked all the changes, which is why we ended up with the book 3913 Changes in the Book of Mormon was because we wanted to settle this in our own minds just which verses were changed.

Chris Thomas [00:27:55] Right. And so by the time you met Gerald, you were believing, holding the book to be scripture but aware of some of these complications, Is that vaguely aware.

Marriage, Baptism, and Growing Scrutiny

Sandra Tanner [00:28:12] I had not paid attention to what my mom was saying any more than I had to because I was content to be a Mormon. I wasn't looking for reasons not to believe it. And I'd already got in trouble at different times at the wardhouse for asking questions that my mom had put me up to asking. So I was aware there were problems. I was aware there were questions. They were not my questions yet. And so I didn't internalize them. I didn't really think about it.

Chris Thomas [00:28:46] But by the time you meet Gerald, you both hold the book to be scripture in some form, right?

Sandra Tanner [00:28:54] Absolutely. Yeah.

Chris Thomas [00:28:55] And had Gerald already made the move to sort of the 1830 primacy kind of original, almost like some of the King James only folk, right? Yeah.

Sandra Tanner [00:29:10] Yeah. So, yes, through the influence of this group and becoming aware that there were changes, Gerald favored the first edition, feeling that it was the pure word and accepting the witnesses statements going back to David Whitmer's statement that every word appeared on the stone. So if every word appeared on the stone, you couldn't go back and add or delete anything. So. So that became a very major problem for them.

Chris Thomas [00:29:42] And going back to Pauline, just a second, would she have been in kind of the Whitmer camp of Joseph was a prophet, but fallen prophet?

Sandra Tanner [00:29:54] Yes. She felt that he was fallen when he tried to set up a church and then started giving more revelations later on about church priesthood and all those things.

Chris Thomas [00:30:03] And just to help us along the way, give us a quick kind of accounting of the significance of Pauline and her church and their role in Gerald's life.

Sandra Tanner [00:30:19] Yeah. Well, when Gerald was 18, I don't know how close he was to 19, but the bishop had cornered him at church one day and told him it was time to straighten up because Gerald was drinking beer with the other Mormon boys that didn't want to go to priesthood. And he said, you need to go on a mission to straighten up. And so that raised the whole question of, do I believe in enough to go? And as he studied the Book of Mormon, he felt convinced that it was the word of God.

Sandra Tanner [00:30:55] And then he read in the encyclopedia about splinter groups, which eventually led him to find the little church that Pauline had, this little church of Christ that believed just the Bible and Book of Mormon. So he drove out to Independence, Missouri, and met with them, and it was through their influence that he made a profession of commitment to Christ.

Sandra Tanner [00:31:21] And along with that, a firm conviction that the Book of Mormon was true, that Joseph was a fallen prophet, and that you needed to follow just what was in the Bible and Book of Mormon. And that alone was your test of faith on anything, was whether it was in those two books.

Chris Thomas [00:31:42] Gotcha. So you meet Gerald. He's had this experience already. It's a whirlwind romance with emphasis on the whirlwind. And you marry. And I've heard you say before, in the presence of Dr. Dehlin, that you used the Book of Mormon for devotions along with the Bible. Tell us just a little bit about how you went about that, your kind of discussions in terms of did you begin to distinguish, I mean, just theologically, between the Bible and the Book of Mormon? Or again, was it all just kind of seamless to you?

Sandra Tanner [00:32:26] Well, because of Mormon influence of we believe the Bible, as far as it's translated correctly, our primary text was the Book of Mormon.

Chris Thomas [00:32:37] Okay.

Sandra Tanner [00:32:38] And so in having questions about Mormonism and Joseph Smith and the Doctrine and Covenants and those other things, how do we decide what we should be believing? And so if we take the Book of Mormon as the one book that came word for Word by God with no translators because Joseph's just reading those words off the stone.

Sandra Tanner [00:33:06] So I'll read the Book of Mormon to find out what is true in the Bible and what to believe. So I'm working my way backwards into going along with the Bible by using the Book of Mormon as my litmus test of what should be believed. Okay, so you read the first statement in the witnesses statements testifying that to the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, which is one God.

Sandra Tanner [00:33:36] Okay, well, underline that one. And then you read the purpose of the Book of Mormon is to convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the eternal Father, the eternal God. Okay, well, this isn't sounding like Mormonism.

Sandra Tanner [00:33:54] And so as I'm reading through the Book of Mormon to see what it says doctrinally, I'm encountering, oh, there's only one God, there's only heaven, hell, there's no three levels of heaven, there's no temple work, there's no temple marriage, there's no work for the dead. And so as I'm going through the Book of Mormon, I'm jotting down notes all the way through of all these different doctrines that I see in the Book of Mormon that I didn't see in Mormon scriptures.

Chris Thomas [00:34:26] And so before you go there, let me just say so hermeneutically then. Is it fair to say that the Book of Mormon kind of serves as the lens through which you read other scriptural texts at this point?

Sandra Tanner [00:34:44] Yes, absolutely.

Chris Thomas [00:34:45] Including the Bible.

Sandra Tanner [00:34:46] Right. It was the top of the list that was the sure word of God. And everything else had to be filtered through that.

Chris Thomas [00:34:56] I'd heard. Well, at one of our conferences, I'd heard a Community of Christ scholar, you present it in the inverse that you have to read the Book of Mormon through the New Testament. And so that's very interesting to me about how you were reading it. So you began to detect reading using the Book of Mormon as your lens. There were tensions with other Mormon scripture, and you were getting ready to take us to some of your earliest sort of discoveries. Though, before doing that, tell us about your letter to your friends and how the Book of Mormon was continuing at that point to function as an authoritative text.

Sandra Tanner [00:35:50] Yeah, well, when I decided that I was going to separate from the LDS Church, we were about to move up to Salt Lake from down in Southern California, and I wanted to get my name taken off the roll before we moved to have it done by my bishop and my ward. And so I decided I would let my ward and all the Mormons that I Knew know why I was leaving. I didn't want to just leave and move out of the country and no one would know what had happened, what I still believed. So I wrote a dear friend letter, and in it I tell them that I had come to faith in Christ and that I could see that this was a different experience than what I'd experienced as a Mormon. And then I go on and talk about. I quote from James and then I quote first Nephi.

Chris Thomas [00:36:47] Okay.

Sandra Tanner [00:36:48] And so I got both books in there. And then I go on to talk about how that the church isn't teaching and following the teachings of the Book of Mormon, that the Book of Mormon teaches very different than that. And I go on with talking about problems in the first vision and some other things, and that this is why I was going to separate myself from the LDS Church. But the Book of Mormon was right there center in the reason for that.

Chris Thomas [00:37:17] And again, before getting to the contradictions, give us a little bit of a recounting of your own trips to Missouri, your water baptism, and the role the Book of Mormon played as a part of this larger construct.

Sandra Tanner [00:37:37] Okay. Gerald and I get married in June of 59. And Gerald and I had already studied enough of the changes in the Doctrine and Covenants and sermons by Brigham Young and sermons by Joseph Smith that I was pretty sure I couldn't accept any of that anymore. But I didn't know really what I did believe. I mean, when you subtract that out, what do you have left? And I wasn't sure what all would pass into being something I would hold on to. I just was seeing this, okay, this was wrong, this was wrong, this is wrong. And so I'm stepping back out of Mormonism through each of these encounters with things I would read.

Sandra Tanner [00:38:23] Well, Gerald is trying to talk to me about what it means to really follow Christ and not be focused in a church or priesthood authority that you don't look to man's authority, you look just to Christ. And he took me around to different churches, which, for a Mormon girl going into these other churches, you know, I was very lost and like, okay, what are they doing?

Sandra Tanner [00:38:53] So he decides that maybe the answer would be to send me back to Pauline's group and let me experience a little bit of life with them. So in, I think it was In September of 59, he asked me if I would be willing to go back on the train to Missouri alone and stay with these people a little bit to get a flavor for what Pauline's church is about.

Sandra Tanner [00:39:21] Well, when we first started planning This I didn't realize I was pregnant. And so by the time I got out to Missouri, I was having morning sickness, which didn't make the trip as enjoyable as it might have been otherwise.

Chris Thomas [00:39:38] So.

Sandra Tanner [00:39:39] But meeting with these people, it was a wonderful experience of just the simple love of Christ. Just a very loving group and very accepting. And Pauline talked to me a lot about her experience and her journey out of the reorganized then out of temple lot and into this little group that just held to the Bible and Book of Mormon. So they had a big influence on me in helping me center my thoughts more around God and not around a church. Even though they had a church, they. Their big issue was not, you got to come join our church.

Sandra Tanner [00:40:16] So I came back from that. And then in October, the next month, through listening to a Christian radio program, I had had a spiritual experience of coming to Faith in Christ and. And. But we were still all hung up on the Book of Mormon and visiting Christian churches and not knowing where we fit. Pastors would come visit, and they'd say, oh, wonderful, you believe in Jesus. And then we tell them, yeah, we believe the Book of Mormon. I was like, what?

Sandra Tanner [00:40:48] So we were in this transition point then finally, and we were going through struggles on some of the Book of Mormon issues. Gerald more than me, I didn't realize he was having questions about the Book of Mormon at the time.

Sandra Tanner [00:41:05] He was privately writing to Pauline about things that bothered him. And so when we went back to Missouri in June or July of, what would it be now, 60, we both had some questions that we were trying to work through on Book of Mormon. And so Pauline talked to us both and told us we needed to go pray about it. And all because she did not want to baptize me unless I was committed to follow Christ by following both the Bible and the Book of Mormon.

Sandra Tanner [00:41:45] Now, from my side, I didn't connect my baptism with whether or not I believed the Book of Mormon, but Pauline did. And, I mean, I felt I had become a Christian. And so I wanted to have water baptism as a declaration of my faith, but I didn't view it as joining a church or connecting it in that sense to whether or not you believed the Book of Mormon.

Sandra Tanner [00:42:15] So. But she had challenged me. Do I really feel comfortable to be committed to it? So I prayed and prayed and prayed, and Gerald prayed, and I felt that God had impressed on me. The Book of Mormon was true. So when we met the next day, I told her, yes. I felt that I'd had this spiritual conviction that the Book of Mormon is True. So she would baptize me.

Sandra Tanner [00:42:40] So Gerald kind of threw his lot in and said, well, if Sanders had a spiritual experience that she's sure the Book of Mormon is true, then I guess I'm going to go along with that and I'll just take it by faith and throw my lot in with fully coming under the full commitment to the Book of Mormon.

Sandra Tanner [00:43:03] And so Pauline baptized me. And of course, that raises the question in Mormon circles, well, I guess even in Christian circles, how does a woman baptize you without the priesthood authority? And I didn't view it as a need for priesthood because to me, the issue was whether you were committing yourself to follow Christ, not whether you had a certain priesthood authority to baptize the person.

Sandra Tanner [00:43:33] And so Pauline gave me water baptism, full immersion. And I don't know how long it was after that that Gerald's question saw the Book of Mormon resurfaced because we continued to read. We were both reading all the time, and he was reading more critically than I was. I was doing. My reading of the Book of Mormon was more devotional. And I think Gerald's reading of the Book of Mormon was more critical, thinking things through.

Sandra Tanner [00:44:09] And he started reading like Francis Kirkham's New Witness for Christ in America, where Kirkham's trying to deal with a lot of the early problem areas of Mormonism, the witnesses, statements and different changes and contradictions and things. He was trying to supply answers for the questioning Mormon, and Gerald's trying to reconcile things on the Book of Mormon, but he was finding problems with Kirkham's answers, and he was having problems with Pauline's answers that seemed too shallow, that it was too much like the Mormons answering questions where it just wasn't thought deeply enough to see what the real problem was.

Sandra Tanner [00:45:02] So as the time went on, even though we continued to have Bible Book of Mormon studies in our house weekly with neighbors and friends, Gerald was continuing his study on problem areas. We went a lot up to Lamar Peterson's house. He was a musician, but he also had written some material on critical areas of the Book of Mormon. We talked with him many a night about these problem areas. And I didn't realize Gerald was asking questions as deeply as it turned out

Chris Thomas [00:45:48] as he was during this time. You guys actually meet Kirkham, is that right?

Sandra Tanner [00:45:52] Right.

Chris Thomas [00:45:52] Tell us about that.

Sandra Tanner [00:45:54] Well, we were visiting at James Wardle's barbershop, and James was an infamous funny barber downtown on State street, where the Matheson Courthouse is now. And it was where everyone went to know what was going on when you didn't have Internet, you went to James Wardle's barbershop and get the latest gossip of who was saying what and who's claiming to be a prophet this week. And because they're all kind of splinter groups, polygamous groups that popping up, and we met, like the Lebarons and different infamous people.

Sandra Tanner [00:46:31] Well, one day we were at the barbershop when this man comes in, and it turns out to be Francis Kirkham. And he's asking James Wardle, wow, have you heard about this young couple that are putting out all these little mimeograph papers that are questioning Mormonism and this.

Sandra Tanner [00:46:49] These tanners that have been putting this on, raising all these questions. And he's going on and on, and James didn't say a thing about us sitting there. And then finally, things got a little slower in the conversation. And James says, well, would you like to meet them at some time? And Francis said, oh, yeah, yeah, I'd really like to meet them and talk to them, find out they're thinking on these things. And so James turns around to us and he says, well, Gerald and Sandra, I'd like you to meet Frances Kirkham.

Sandra Tanner [00:47:22] And then we had a nice visit with him, and he invited us to his home. So we went up there. And then he inscribed a volume two of his new witness for Christ in America book to us. To my newfound friends and believers in the Book of Mormon and signs of Francis Kirkham.

Sandra Tanner [00:47:45] But he wasn't able to save the day for Gerald, or for me, for that matter. I'm not sure what all Gerald was reading. I know Lamar Peterson gave him a number of things to read, and at some point, it was either through James Wardle or Lamar Peterson. And today, I couldn't tell you which, we got hold of mt Lamb's book, the golden Bible.

Sandra Tanner [00:48:12] And mt Lamb was a minister here in Salt lake in the 1890s, and he gave a series of lectures on the Book of Mormon. And it was the first serious look at study of the Book of Mormon by a scholar.

Sandra Tanner [00:48:30] And then it was made into a book. So here's the big challenge for me is to read Lamb's book and see if any of his arguments are valid. Well, there's once in a while that Kirk of Mr. Lamb makes little snide comments about the absurdities of things he saw in the Book of Mormon.

Sandra Tanner [00:48:58] I mean, it wasn't that bad, but it was enough. When you're a believer and you're reading someone kind of poking holes at your scriptures, it was kind of hard and because this was something by this time that was very dear to me.

Sandra Tanner [00:49:16] And to read this man speak lightly of any parts of it was, you know, just hard to get past that, to think about what he's really challenging me to think about. So struggling through that. And he talks about all kinds of problems with the language and anachronisms and changes all sorts of things that all were weighing heavily on my mind. But one of the things he brought up that really hit me was the Book of Mormon says that the people keep the law of Moses. And it also says that they offered sacrifices from the first of their flocks.

Sandra Tanner [00:50:08] And Lamb points out that a Jewish person would not have offered sacrifices from the first of his flock because under the Jewish law, the first of the flock automatically belonged to God. And so your sacrifices that you would give would be over and above that.

Sandra Tanner [00:50:29] And that just hit me. I thought, yeah, how could these guys be real Jews and not understand the law of Moses? I mean, and later when I'd bring this up to people, one of the BYU guys once said, oh, well, you know, that's how many different little rules in the law. Moses. I mean, who would understand all that? And I said, a Jewish person would have.

Sandra Tanner [00:50:54] Protestants in our day wouldn't understand the difference. But if you were a Jewish person at that time, this would have been really important to you. So how come Lehi doesn't sound like a Jew?

Chris Thomas [00:51:09] And so Lamb's Book both pains you, wounds you, which is a sign of how dear the book was to your heart, even at this time, even with the kind of tensions you're feeling.

Confronting Contradictions in the Book of Mormon

Sandra Tanner [00:51:29] Right.

Chris Thomas [00:51:30] Let's go back now to your contradictions and tell us a little bit about when you wrote that. And kind of, if you wouldn't mind, give us sort of the headings that you are. Already you're critiquing other LDS scripture by means of the Book of Mormon and in turn, the Bible.

Sandra Tanner [00:51:56] This is an original mimeographed copy. And back when I still believed the Book of Mormon, a comparison of the teachings and when's.

Chris Thomas [00:52:08] What's the date on that, Sandra? Was that 60ish?

Sandra Tanner [00:52:13] I think it's about 1960, right? Yeah. So a comparison of the teachings of the Book of Mormon and those of the LDS Church. And so I mainly. Well, yeah, I was trying to see how many were Doctrine and Covenants. I see most of these are Journal of Discourses and Mormon quotes and things. Okay. Book of Mormon side.

Sandra Tanner [00:52:42] The Book of Mormon teaches God is unchangeable. And then I quote from Journal of Discourses on God progressing in his knowledge and acquiring knowledge and power in those things. And then number two, God is the Spirit. And I quote from Ammon and about the great Spirit. And this great Spirit is God. And of course, the contrast to that is Joseph Smith. God himself who sits throned in the under heavens is a man like unto yourself. That's the great secret. And so I go through these contrasts.

Sandra Tanner [00:53:24] The Book of Mormon says there's only one God. Quoting from Zazaram, that there's only one God. And then quoting from the Brigham Young Journal of Discourses about many gods and some other quotes. Next one is Christ is the very eternal God. And quoting a bunch of Book of Mormon verses contrasted to evidence of some reconciliation where Wizow says that the gods are all separate. And so it just goes on down through the different points about God, about man's sin, nature.

Sandra Tanner [00:54:03] Is there multiple levels of heaven? Only one? Is there one wife for many? What about David and Solomon and his wives? And all are equal in God's sight. In looking at the Book of Mormon where it talks about he denieth none that come to him, black, white, bond and free.

Sandra Tanner [00:54:25] And then quoting on the Mormon side from Bruce McConkie on the differences of race and those kinds of things, the funny thing is that even when I'm doing this on the racial thing, it doesn't even occur to me that the Book of Mormon is racist because I don't know any Indians or Native Americans.

Sandra Tanner [00:54:50] And it never occurred to me at the time of believing the Book of Mormon that believing that they were cursed with a black skin doesn't fit with the Book of Mormon statement that God has no respecter of persons on the color of their skin or everything. You know, I mean, later I look back on it, I think, well, why didn't I get that? But, you know, you just have your blind spots.

Sandra Tanner [00:55:15] So went through all kind of things on the different ways I was seeing the Book of Mormon didn't teach Mormon doctrine. Because the whole question when I come to faith in Christ is sitting there thinking, okay, what do I believe now that I didn't believe five minutes ago?

Sandra Tanner [00:55:36] And that's kind of hard to figure out when you're just a young teenager, huh? So it took a lot of sorting. And so as I'm reading through the Book of Mormon during that first year in California, I'm making notes when I keep hitting these different verses of the Book of Mormon. Wait a minute. That doesn't sound like the Doctrine and Covenants. That doesn't sound like Joseph Fielding Smith, that doesn't sound like Bruce McConkie, you know, doesn't sound like Widtso. It's a whole different set of doctrines here.

Chris Thomas [00:56:07] And so your view of the Book of Mormon, despite the tensions you're starting to feel that represents a bit earlier just how strongly the book functioned as scripture for you. And it becomes this trustworthy lens through which to evaluate the others. And so it doesn't sound to me like, you know, we like to neatly divide history into, you know, on this day, then this new epoch begins or that new epic begins, when, as all of this is kind of in your mind, in your heart about the questions you have now and you're still holding on to the Book of Mormon, Gerald's having his own questions. When do you recall when you have the conversation that, you know, I don't know that the Book of Mormon is Scripture?

Sandra Tanner [00:57:09] Well, this would be in, Oh, the fall of 62. And Gerald had been going through his own struggles with that. And I was aware to some extent that he was struggling with different areas. And that's when I read Lamb and started to have these very deep questions as I worked my way through his book.

Sandra Tanner [00:57:48] Can I reconcile all these points? Can the Book of Mormon come through this and still be what it claims to be? Were there really Lamanites and Nephites? Was there really a set of gold plates? So I'm struggling with those areas.

Sandra Tanner [00:58:06] And then the finishing Lamb's book, I come to that point, that aha moment when I realized, I don't believe this anymore. I don't think this. I don't think there really were Nephites. I think there's something really wrong here.

Sandra Tanner [00:58:32] But how do I tell Gerald? Because I wasn't sure where he was at as the two of us both were going down this road of doubt on the Book of Mormon, and we had quit having deep discussions about it.

Sandra Tanner [00:58:51] And this is probably typical for a lot of people, when you start into an area where you know you might be at odds with your mate, you start being less forthright in your opinions, more guarded, because you're not sure where they're at and what tensions will it bring in to your relationship.

Sandra Tanner [00:59:16] Okay, so I've decided, finally, I've got to tell Gerald I don't believe the Book of Mormon anymore. Well, he was working evening shift as a machinist, and he comes home from work, and I'd stayed up for him. I don't remember what time he got off work, like 11 at night or something.

Sandra Tanner [00:59:36] And when he came home, he said, Sandra, there's something I need to tell you. And, oh, well, you know, that could be anything under the sun. So, okay, so we sit at the kitchen table and he says, well, I have to tell you, when Gerald would take his dinner break or lunch break, he would read his scriptures and either the New Testament or the Book of Mormon. Well, the guys at work knew he was a regular lds, but he's some kind of oddball group, you know, and they didn't understand it exactly, but they knew he was some kind of Mormon, but not standard brand, you know.

Sandra Tanner [01:00:20] So Gerald says, tonight at the dinner break, these two guys came up to me and said, we know you're not regular Mormon, but we know you read the Book of Mormon and the Bible. So just what are you? What do you believe? And, well, do you really believe the Book of Mormon is true?

Sandra Tanner [01:00:45] And Gerald said at that moment, it hit him, you know, it's that aha moment. Okay, do I say I don't believe it anymore or do I still believe it? Day of accounting? And he said. So I finally said to them, no, I don't believe the Book of Mormon anymore. I'm just going to be a Christian with the Bible and I'm not going to go. You won't see me reading the Book of Mormon anymore.

Sandra Tanner [01:01:14] And I said, oh, well, praise God, because I don't believe the Book of Mormon anymore either. And so that was when we both could share notes and realize we'd both been on the same journey and not exactly simultaneously, because we probably both hadn't believed it for a while and just couldn't say it.

Sandra Tanner [01:01:40] But then that night, I laid awake thinking, how will this impact my friends in Missouri? I'd already gone through the loss of my friends, the conversations with family, the disappointments of everyone I loved when I left the Mormon Church. And now if I give up the Book of Mormon, I'm going to have to go through this whole thing again, losing my loved ones, my faith community. Even though it was long distance, they were still very dear to me.

Sandra Tanner [01:02:13] And I thought, how can I do this again? But we were committed that we had to follow what we knew to be true. So we had. Then Gerald had, in realizing we were at that point, okay, we're giving up the Book of Mormon. How do we make that transition?

Sandra Tanner [01:02:38] So he writes up a pamphlet, and I've got a copy in my notes here. He wrote up this pamphlet on issues relating to the Book of Mormon. Well, the people in Missouri knew Gerald was working on this pamphlet and they oh, they're so excited, you know, send us 20 copies. Everyone's going to want a copy. And Gerald says, well, you might want to let me just send you one first and see if you want any more. Because we kind of shifted a little on our thinking here.

Sandra Tanner [01:03:16] And so it's a. It's a soft denunciation of the Book of Mormon, of bringing in questions about does this really make it as history? And that becomes the forerunner to one of the chapters when we do our Mormonism Book. But we. Our first venture into separating from the Book of Mormon was that pamphlet that then when we put out the 63 mimeographed shadow, or wasn't Shadow then Mormonism Book, it was clearer on Book of Mormon issues. And then the further we got removed from it, the chapter grew when we started realizing more problems.

Chris Thomas [01:04:00] And this is around 62.

Sandra Tanner [01:04:03] Well, we give up the Book of Mormon in the fall of 62.

Chris Thomas [01:04:08] And. And when you inform Pauline and the church that was then, how did they respond?

Sandra Tanner [01:04:15] Oh, they were so heartbroken. They were very disappointed, but they stayed very loving and kind to us. There was no repercussion or angry words or anything, just heartfelt disappointment. And that next summer, a fellow that was kind of like an adopted son of Pauline Hancock's was coming through Salt Lake with his family on the way to one of the national parks.

Sandra Tanner [01:04:43] And they made the effort to specifically stop in to see us of trying to get a better understanding of why we didn't believe the Book of Mormon anymore. But it wasn't a hard pressure thing. It wasn't a, you know, calling us a repentance kind of thing. It was just a sincere, you know, what possessed you and why would you think this way? A very sincere friend to friend worry about us. Just like if someone came to me and said, I don't believe half of the New Testament, I might be concerned about them and express that to them, but not in condemning.

Chris Thomas [01:05:21] And Pauline is still alive at this point?

Sandra Tanner [01:05:24] No. Pauline had died shortly before we came to the conclusion the Book of Mormon wasn't true. Pauline knew Gerald had questions, but she had not lived to see Gerald actually give it up.

Chris Thomas [01:05:41] And just kind of a existential question. You must have felt really alone in that time.

Sandra Tanner [01:05:49] Oh, yeah.

Chris Thomas [01:05:50] It's just you and Gerald, Right?

Sandra Tanner [01:05:52] Well, that's a good part of my life. Yeah. Gerald kind of made me lose about everybody along the way. Yeah. So in losing Mormon church membership, that was a big alienation. And then the stepping away from the Little Church of Christ was another alienation.

Sandra Tanner [01:06:16] But then we got involved in A local Christian church and found Fellowship, a new set of friends here in Salt Lake and have moved forward in our lives. And so there's two parts of my life, I guess you'd say. There's my research side as Utah Lighthouse Ministry, and then there's my church side where I don't make any issue about Mormonism.

Sandra Tanner [01:06:38] In fact, when the Netflix video on the Mark Hoffman and the Mormons came out, Murder among the Mormons, some people at church saw the video and were shocked to see me in it because they had no idea what I did or, you know, what's Sandra Tanner doing in this? You know, they come up to me at church. I was watching this movie on Netflix and you were in it. Yes.

Chris Thomas [01:07:08] And there was a. When Gerald. When you and Gerald were becoming part of the church, he gave, in a Gerald Tanner like, fashion, sort of an ultimatum to the pastor.

Leaving Mormonism and Finding a New Faith

Sandra Tanner [01:07:23] Oh, yeah. When we started going to the. Well, it's now called Discovery Christian Community. It wasn't called that at the time, but our first regular pastor in a Protestant church, Gerald went into him one day and told him, okay, so we've left Mormonism and we've given up the Book of Mormon. But if I ever hear you in a sermon, Sunday morning sermon, make fun of the Mormons or call them out in any way, I'll get up and walk out of the church. And our pastor said he was so impressed that Gerald had made that separation. He didn't want the church to be an anti Mormon church. He wanted it to be a pro Jesus church that had some ex Mormons in it.

Chris Thomas [01:08:18] Gotcha. Gotcha.

Sandra Tanner [01:08:19] Yeah.

Chris Thomas [01:08:20] So we're. We're at a pretty important juncture, right, in your life with the Book of Mormon.

Sandra Tanner [01:08:26] Yeah.

Chris Thomas [01:08:27] And so why don't we. Why don't we talk some about where things went from there? You made reference to that first. Almost understated or softly stated thing that Gerald wrote. What sorts of things was included in that, Sandra, that he sent back to Missouri? What sort of issues about the Book of Mormon?

Sandra Tanner [01:08:56] Wow. Now you put me on.

Chris Thomas [01:08:58] Were they kind of categories that would become more pronounced?

Sandra Tanner [01:09:02] Well, yeah, the whole translation problem. The.

Chris Thomas [01:09:09] And was the KJV one of the crucial things at some point for Gerald that he wrote Pauline, about the kind of.

Sandra Tanner [01:09:17] Oh, well, yeah, one of the problems Gerald had had when he was questioning the Book of Mormon. Well, in leaving the Mormon Church and centering more on the Bible and Book of Mormon meant we spent a lot. And, well, I have to tell you, coming out of Mormonism, we went into a Very.

Sandra Tanner [01:09:42] Do I word the word extreme. We went into a very serious kind of Christian living that Mormon audiences wouldn't understand, but called the Holiness movement. And in the Holiness movement, you separated from all things of the world and didn't go to worldly entertainments. So that meant in our evenings at home, we spent the evenings reading. There was no TV and there was no secular radio.

Sandra Tanner [01:10:14] And so our evenings would be spent studying the Scriptures or reading devotional books or even just a history book. Whatever we were reading, you didn't do frivolous entertainment. And so Gerald's pouring over the Bible and over the Book of Mormon, and the more he reads his King James Bible every night and the Book of Mormon, the more the phrasing pops out to him. Wait a minute. That sounds familiar. I've read that before. And then he starts picking up these patterns that all through the Book of Mormon are all these King James phrases.

Sandra Tanner [01:10:57] And while neither one of us studied languages. But Gerald knew that that didn't sound right. You know, if you're doing a translation, how could it come across this similar. How could it be the same King James phrasing in the Book of Mormon? This became such an issue to Gerald that he's tried to work that out in his mind. So before we gave up the Book of Mormon, he had concluded, okay, the only way you can explain the King James verbiage in the Book of Mormon was that somehow God had shown the New Testament to Nephi, that the people in the Book of Mormon had to have read the New Testament, that God showed them that some way in a vision.

Chris Thomas [01:11:42] So Nephi sees the book, and Gerald's now come to the conclusion he must have seen content.

Sandra Tanner [01:11:49] Yeah, Gerald. Yeah. The early Book of Mormon people, obviously, they had read all this stuff, and

Chris Thomas [01:11:55] he had seen Revelation through a revelation or something. I mean, the Book of Revelation. Yeah, Right. But he couldn't reveal the content. Nephi. Right.

Sandra Tanner [01:12:04] Well, he wouldn't talk about it, evidently, but that's right. But he's influenced by Gerald. Could see the influence.

Chris Thomas [01:12:10] Right.

Sandra Tanner [01:12:11] That Nephi had to have read the Book of the King James New Testament.

Chris Thomas [01:12:15] That's a really interesting way to try to think through that.

Sandra Tanner [01:12:18] Yes. Right. Well, yeah, when you're trying to believe something, you can stand on your head to make it work, you know, but yeah, so that was one of the things that bothered him. And he talked to Pauline about that, and it became an issue in our studies. And in fact, one of Darrell's last books he did was on Joseph Smith's Plagiarism of the Bible in the Book of Mormon, because this had been a crucial issue for him right from that time period in the 60s, of trying to reconcile. How could you possibly have all of this verbiage, not just the verbiage, but concepts of New Testament theology. How could you have them in this Book of Mormon? All the theological issues were all being discussed by the Nephites, so he just couldn't find a way around that.

Chris Thomas [01:13:22] So it's not only the historical issues, but it's also internal issues.

Sandra Tanner [01:13:27] Internal, yeah.

Chris Thomas [01:13:29] And the whole interest preoccupation in the changes from the 1830 edition to a later version that you guys started tracking, does that take on a different sort of meaning the further you make your way out of holding the Book of Mormon as scripture? Because part of that came earlier, didn't it?

Sandra Tanner [01:13:56] Yeah.

Chris Thomas [01:13:57] All the changes, does that contribute to all of this in any way as you're making your way through?

Sandra Tanner [01:14:05] Well, yes, you start coming up with the issues of the italicized words, for instance, in the Isaiah portions quoted in the Book of Mormon. Now, sometimes Joseph Smith would take out the italicized words and other times he'd leave men. It wasn't consistent. But you start realizing, no, this is somebody consciously diddling with these words, that he knows there's a problem in using the italicized words, but he did not know exactly how to get around the problem. But Gerald could see there was an issue there, that you've got to be looking at the King James Bible to have these questions or problems or changes that you're making. That's the only way you would come up with this kind of pattern in it.

Chris Thomas [01:14:58] And so you've both discerned that the Book of Mormon is not scripture by this point, and you're on your way to shadow and beyond. Do you want to talk just a little bit to us about sort of the content of Shadow in terms of as it released the Book of Mormon, major categories. We talked just a little bit about that in that little piece that Gerald wrote.

Anachronisms, Plagiarism, and Scholarly Problems

Sandra Tanner [01:15:32] Yeah, well, boy, I can't remember now how our understanding of the problems grew, but we got more involved in the anachronisms, understanding that the animals, the plant life, metallurgy, that these were problems as well. Internal things. We started realizing that it wasn't just that there weren't any artifacts, there were things in the story that shouldn't have been there.

Chris Thomas [01:16:09] And had you run across the B.H. roberts manuscript shut.

Sandra Tanner [01:16:18] I don't think so. I don't think we saw those till after we'd given up the Book of Mormon, that I recall. I don't think they had come into our picture yet, but those were issues in BH Roberts studies, were similar kinds of issues. We didn't know about View of the Hebrews early on. Not sure when we first became aware of that. I'd have to look through our stuff to when we first started quoting from it. So our list of problems with the Book of Mormon continued to grow over the years.

Chris Thomas [01:16:57] And there's a very helpful bibliography of your work on the website.

Sandra Tanner [01:17:03] On our website, yeah.

Chris Thomas [01:17:04] Mike Marquardt, who put that together, which kind of offers a chronological list of the things that you began to address. Right, right. I mean, was there a little piece called Is the Book of Mormon Benign, or is that a question? I have written in my notes that you do a chiasma in the Book of Mormon. A little piece on that, I think.

Sandra Tanner [01:17:29] Yeah. But not real early, because we didn't know about them early on.

Chris Thomas [01:17:32] So we're kind of starting to see the trajectory of your work on the Book of Mormon.

Sandra Tanner [01:17:38] Yes.

Chris Thomas [01:17:39] Right. You do a Book of Mormon overview at some point.

Sandra Tanner [01:17:44] Yeah. Which is just telling about the two different groups, the Jaredites and the Lehigh crowd. And going through a brief outline overview of how that those different parts of the story come together and a few of the problems of things that are missing, why we can't find artifacts, and just some basic problem areas on the Book of Mormon.

Chris Thomas [01:18:15] And a little piece on possible sources for the Book of Mormon.

Sandra Tanner [01:18:20] Yeah.

Chris Thomas [01:18:20] Is that where you evaluate the whole Spalding theory and then talk about other ways in which there are things that might be source material for its construction?

Sandra Tanner [01:18:33] Yeah. The Spalding thing course comes up as early as Mormonism unveiled by ed Howe in 1833. Whatever. And so we read the different Spalding materials, but started finding problem areas in making the story fit, whether there were two manuscripts or not.

Sandra Tanner [01:18:59] And one of the things that bothered us when we first got into the Spalding question was they said there were the same names in Spalding's manuscript as in the Book of Mormon. Well, when we read Spaulding's manuscript, they don't have the same names. They got odd names, but not the same names. And then you get into the question, well, was there a second reworked manuscript that Spaulding did? And we couldn't see that the evidence led to a second manuscript that seemed more like the people pushing the Spalding theory were opting for another excuse of why the manuscript didn't match. And so you come up with a second manuscript that had those things that's

Chris Thomas [01:19:47] now lost, and you do a little piece. Where is Cumorah? At some point.

Sandra Tanner [01:19:53] Yes, because we all grew up knowing that the whole Book of Mormon story happened in New York. Well, the two great wars both happened in New York. The Jaredite civilization ended on that same hill where Moroni closes out the Book of Mormon.

Sandra Tanner [01:20:19] And yet the Mormon scholars, after a while, they start arguing, well, it doesn't have to all be there in New York. Maybe that was down in southern Mexico or something. And they were like, what? How do you come up with another cumorah? Well, you have to come up with another cumorah. If you place a Book of Mormon in Mayan land and it doesn't make sense that you would have an army from Mayan areas Trump troop all the way up to New York for the battle. Especially when you start thinking about it. Wait a minute. As I recall the story, the good guys get to pick where the last battle's fought, and they say they want to meet on this hill.

Sandra Tanner [01:21:10] Well, which is pretty silly if you're. If you get to pick the spot. Why would you pick New York if you're down in Mayan land? You know, I mean, that's a heck of a journey to get all the way up there for your war.

Sandra Tanner [01:21:23] So then the scholars. Oh, well, because there was a Camorra down in Mexico. They didn't march all that way up to New York. So then how do you get the plates to New York? Well, Moroni wanders around and finally gets up there with the plates, which raises a whole bunch of questions of did he take all the plates with him?

Sandra Tanner [01:21:43] Because supposedly Mormons got all the plates in the hill, and Moroni is finishing off the plates on the small Nephi plates or whatever. So the story just gets real complicated when you make a second Camorra and you kind of.

Chris Thomas [01:22:02] The. One of the final major pieces was the plagiarism volume.

Sandra Tanner [01:22:09] Yes.

Chris Thomas [01:22:11] And this is, if I'm not mistaken, is not necessarily computer assisted, is it?

Sandra Tanner [01:22:20] When we first started, we didn't have a computer on it. Then we finally got a computer program where Gerald could look up a string of, like, three words early on. I mean, we were so stupid on computer stuff. Well, I still am, but, I mean, we. We were babes in the woods on this stuff. So a lot of it was done just on our memory of the New Testament and the Book of Mormon. That. So we would just think about phrases that we knew we had encountered in the Book of Mormon and then we'd put them in the program, see if they popped up in the Bible. And so a lot of it was just pick and choose of trying to think of phrases that we could look up.

Chris Thomas [01:23:15] It's an enormous amount of work.

Sandra Tanner [01:23:17] Yes, it was.

Chris Thomas [01:23:18] And it's still, it seems, from what Grant Hardy said in a footnote and his understanding, the most complete list of parallels between the Book of Mormon and the New Testament.

Sandra Tanner [01:23:31] Right.

Chris Thomas [01:23:31] And if I recall correctly, he said something like, we need to get over the fact that it came from the Tanner and make use of this. There are other things going on, but I mean, it's still unrivaled in terms of. From what I know of Book of Mormon studies and scholarship, we deliberately left

Sandra Tanner [01:23:53] out the Old Testament from our study because we knew the Mormon apologetics could say, oh, but they brought the Old Testament with them. So I thought, all right, we're not going to deal with that issue. We're just going to make it where they can't argue it. If it's in the New Testament, they couldn't have had it with them other than if you want to say God gave him the New Testament in reformed Egyptian. But so we just stuck with the New Testament. And yes, I think it's just astounding when you see the dependence the Book of Mormon has on the King James. Because it's King James phrasing. It's not just Bible phrasing, it's specifically King James phrasing.

Reflections on the Book of Mormon's Legacy

Chris Thomas [01:24:36] Well, Sandra, I want us to transition to a final short section here.

Sandra Tanner [01:24:40] Yeah.

Chris Thomas [01:24:41] If you're game. And that is to ask about kind of your assessment of the current role of the Book of Mormon in the LDS Church and beyond. And what kind of role do you see it playing for those who are struggling with their faith or in a faith crisis? I know that Book of Abraham has clearly had an impact on people in faith struggles. The polygamy issue has as well. From where you sit and the journey you've seen unfold, just maybe some thoughts about its current place. It seems to have a greater place now than when you and Gerald were having your struggles. Right. It seemed to get a boost in the 80s from one of the presidents of the church. So that sort of reflection is what I'm encouraging from you at this point.

Sandra Tanner [01:25:53] Okay. First off, the Book of Mormon, I believe, has always served as a conversion point simply because it exists without needing to read it. One could just read portions of it and see that it sounded scriptural. And then the line has always been, who could have produced this? It has to have been from God.

Sandra Tanner [01:26:21] And I think in a lot of arguments for the Book of Mormon today, it comes down to Joseph couldn't have written it, therefore it has to be from God. And from all the research that's been done so far, I would say the Book of Mormon is obviously a product of the 19th century, regardless of who wrote it, how it was put together, what influences were used, whether Joseph had seen this or that book.

Sandra Tanner [01:26:55] Everyone sees the dependence on 19th century thought, material background and the current Bible of his day. So that's becoming more and more of a problem for them. But the value of the Book of Mormon is that it gives them something to hand to the potential convert that teaches about God and Christ and the atonement and does not have peculiar Mormon doctrine in it.

Sandra Tanner [01:27:32] So that it's kind of like the worm on the hook to get you to swallow Mormonism is that here's the Book of Mormon, it speaks of Jesus, it sounds good, sounds scriptural, therefore you buy Joseph Smith. Once you buy into Joseph Smith, you've bought into the Mormon movement. So its conversion value is its existence more than its doctrinal content converting you or if it does convert you, you have to get reconverted to the Doctrine and Covenants because the doctrines are different, because it is.

Chris Thomas [01:28:06] The content is relatively Protestant.

Sandra Tanner [01:28:09] Yes, yes.

Chris Thomas [01:28:11] Which, which kind of underscores the. The reason why some people like Church of Jesus Christ would be comfortable with Bible and Book of Mormon just as you guys came to for a while.

Sandra Tanner [01:28:26] Right. But like the Reorganized Church, they've just moved to a position on the Book of Mormon that it's an appendage to their church. And if you find it of value, fine. If you don't find it a value, fine. And it doesn't really matter whether you see it as a historical record.

Chris Thomas [01:28:48] A couple of final questions. Any, any kind of developments in Book of Mormon scholarship that you have found interesting of late?

Sandra Tanner [01:29:02] Well, I think that we're seeing much more done on the streams of thought that come into the Book of Mormon and it gives us a clearer picture of what Joseph may have been exposed to, what things could have influenced his thoughts, what the religious environment was around him that would have contributed to different aspects of the Book of Mormon. We see more clearly now how much, for instance, Masonry, anti Masonry thought of the day come into the Book of Mormon with the gadiant and robbers and that.

Sandra Tanner [01:29:40] And you see the influence of the religious seekers of the day coming in the whole Disciples of Christ concepts coming into the Book of Mormon. So those are becoming clearer that they were major influences on Joseph Smith's thinking of the day.

Sandra Tanner [01:30:00] Now there's more research on the translation process. I can't even think what all would come into play on that. But, yes, scholarship is becoming more detailed on areas that we used to see in a broader stroke, and they're becoming more defined now in the challenges they make to the Book of Mormon as a historical record.

Chris Thomas [01:30:29] What do you think Pauline's response would have been? To know that the view that she held, which was quite a minority view, has now gained an ascendancy with regard to the Seer Stone and the translation?

Sandra Tanner [01:30:47] Yes, I think that she would have been very persuaded had she lived to see West Walters research on the magic and the Seer Stone, the use of the same Seer Stone that he used in magic and that he continued to be involved in magic through the Book of Mormon production. And that would have been the part that would have really troubled her to see that that magic involvement was still there. Her feeling was that he had repented of those things before he started the translation of the Book of Mormon, and clearly the family was still involved in magic afterwards.

Sandra Tanner [01:31:29] I think she also would have given up the Book of Mormon the same as we did had she lived to see all the research that's been done on it. I believe Pauline was convinced and dedicated enough to truth that she would have faced that I don't think she would have hung on to the Book of Mormon against all odds.

Chris Thomas [01:31:49] What do you think of kind of final major thing? What are your thoughts about what the future holds regarding the Book of Mormon?

Sandra Tanner [01:32:01] Well, I think the Mormons are going to have to go the same route as the Reorganized Church. At some point they're going to have to back away from a historical narrative. Well, I think they already are in some degrees. They're backing away from the things I grew up being told about the Book of Mormon to now embracing the idea of the Seer Stone. Although it leaves them with the problem of seeing it as a text message on your phone, that once you make it the text message, then you have a problem explaining why you have to make all the changes. It also makes a problem reconciling the historical thoughts of Joseph's day being in the Book of Mormon text.

Sandra Tanner [01:32:48] If it is solely, if it's a dictated text that God's given the typescript on, then you can't have Joseph influence any of the religious thought of the Book of Mormon. So the Mormon scholars are kind of on the horns of a dilemma which way they want to argue for the Book of Mormon. Do you say Joseph brought in those modern day elements or do you say God gave it that way in the first place? Which leaves you with the problem. How could it sound like the 19th century if it was really 200 BC or something?

Chris Thomas [01:33:23] You know, I heard a rumor that at one point you guys may have owned the 1830 edition of the Book of Mormon that got sold for replacing the boiler in. In your house or in the ministry, right?

Sandra Tanner [01:33:39] Yes, right, yeah, we had to have major furnace work done, but we actually had two Book of Mormons. One was left to my aunt and then we had it for a while and then we sold it and gave the money to my aunt. That's the first one that we had and my.

Sandra Tanner [01:34:05] Mom was part of that, acquiring that particular Book of Mormon that originally should have been given to my aunt. And so we sold it and gave her the money. And then we got a call from a man that had a used book business in California that said I just had a customer bring in this first edition Book of Mormon and thought of you guys and thought maybe you would want it.

Sandra Tanner [01:34:40] Well, this was back must have been right at the time we started the ministry part. So it had been in the 80s sometime I guess. And we didn't have any money. We didn't have anything. And I mean the ministry didn't have any money.

Sandra Tanner [01:34:59] We had inherited some money from Gerald's parents. And so I told the guy, well, the ministry can't afford it but I would buy it from you. And I think it was $3,500.

Chris Thomas [01:35:13] Wow.

Sandra Tanner [01:35:13] And well that was cheap.

Chris Thomas [01:35:17] Yeah, that's right.

Sandra Tanner [01:35:18] And so I bought that and then sold it right after Gerald died, I believe. I didn't feel that I had the environment to store that valuable a book because they should be in some sort of climate controlled and all that sort of stuff when you have a book that old. And I knew that just sitting on my bookshelf wasn't a good preservation plan and besides I could use the money. But. And so I sold it to Benchmark Books.

Chris Thomas [01:36:05] Is that right?

Sandra Tanner [01:36:06] Yeah, and they turned around, sold it to somebody else.

Chris Thomas [01:36:10] And there was an also a rumor that you guys actually had the 116 lost pages.

Sandra Tanner [01:36:15] Well, absolutely, I'm safe in that one when I really need some money. You know.

Chris Thomas [01:36:21] In fact I was with print Ash Ashworth yesterday and he was telling me the story.

Sandra Tanner [01:36:29] Yeah.

Chris Thomas [01:36:29] Do you want to just tell that little story before we sign off?

Sandra Tanner [01:36:35] Well, I guess you better tell it. I don't know if I can remember it.

Chris Thomas [01:36:39] The church had heard that Mark Hoffman had given the 116 lost pages to you and Gerald.

Sandra Tanner [01:36:45] Oh, of course.

Chris Thomas [01:36:47] And that Brent came to your store first time he ever met you to investigate. You want to take it from there?

Sandra Tanner [01:36:54] Yeah. Well, no, I guess you're going to have to finish it out because I don't remember the punchline.

Chris Thomas [01:37:00] And when he told Gerald, Gerald said, well, what can we do for you? He said, gerald just burst into laughter when he heard that you guys had the 150, 16 pages for two reasons. Because you guys didn't have any money.

Sandra Tanner [01:37:14] Right.

Chris Thomas [01:37:14] And Mark Hoffman would never give anybody anything.

Sandra Tanner [01:37:17] No. Right. He didn't give things out. And we were never in his league to buy any documents from him. And when the murders happened, the detectives came down to interview us. It didn't take him any time at all to figure out, well, we're not any important part of this story because we didn't have the money to be involved in this business. Business dealings.

Chris Thomas [01:37:39] Sandra, are there any other things related? I mean, it's been a wonderful journey through 60 years and more of your. Your journey with the Book of Mormon. Are there any things that. That I failed to. To ask about, things that strike you that would be good for us to. To get recorded here?

Sandra Tanner [01:38:01] I'm having a stupor of thought. I can't think of any at the moment. Doesn't mean there aren't any. But I can't think of them. That's right.

Chris Thomas [01:38:14] That's right. Well, Sandra Tanner, thanks. Thanks for this time together. Thanks for just sharing this very important narrative in one sitting. And thanks so much to Mormon story Studio and Dr. John Dehlin for making this possible. And we all wish you another wonderful 81 years.

Sandra Tanner [01:38:40] Oh, we hope so. Well, I don't know. Do I hope so.

Chris Thomas [01:38:43] So thanks so much today.

Sandra Tanner [01:38:45] Well, at least for 20 more years.

Chris Thomas [01:38:47] There we go. That's exactly right. And at least till the biography comes out.

Sandra Tanner [01:38:52] That's true. Yes.

Chris Thomas [01:38:53] Well, thanks so much, Sandra. And thank you, Dr. Delilah in.

Sandra Tanner [01:38:57] All right.

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