Introduction and Episode Overview

Part 1 of 3 · Ep. 1241

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Sa. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's January 14, 2020. We're really excited to be back in the new calendar year broadcasting on Mormon Stories podcast. This will be my third interview of the year.

John Dehlin [00:00:49] For those of you who have been tuning in, we loved our interview with the Widbeck family earlier this week. And for those of you who started off the year with this, you'll know that we interviewed a thoughtful, sensitive, intelligent, some would say courageous man named Joe Tippetts, who we did several hours covering Joe's sort of upbringing in the church and, you know, his going on a mission and marrying in the temple. But then we talked about Joe's faith crisis and him leaving the Mormon Church and being out of the church for between five and seven years, depending on how you count, and then how he felt like he was called by God to come back to church.

John Dehlin [00:01:37] And unfortunately, we ended that episode. It was a great interview, but we ended it without having the chance to talk to him about how he actually manages church itself as a non traditional believer. And so we told you we'd have him back. And so we're having him back.

John Dehlin [00:01:55] We've got Joe Tippetts for another two hours. And what I've done is I've put out questions to my listening audience, asking them to come up with questions for Joe. And the focus of today's episode is just that. It's supposing you were an orthodox believing Mormon, then you lost your faith and left the church completely, but then you felt called to come back, but you're no longer a traditional believer.

John Dehlin [00:02:23] And we touched on what that means for Joe. We'll be talking about that a bit again today. But let's just say you're going back to the church now as a non traditional believer, where maybe you support LGBT rights, maybe you don't believe it's the one true church, maybe you don't necessarily care if the Book of Mormon is historical, but you want to go to church and you have to hear people say things that are orthodox or maybe untrue or traditional. You have to figure out whether or not to bite your tongue. You have to figure out how to engage, what to do about tithing, what to do about the temple recommend, what to do about callings, what to do about what you used to know and what you know now and.

John Dehlin [00:03:03] And reconciling all the issues. And so that's what we're doing today. We're going to be interviewing Joe. So thanks in advance to everyone who sent in their questions. We'll be reading a lot of them today. And without any further ado, Joe Tippetts, welcome back to Mormon Stories.

Joe Tippetts [00:03:19] Thank you, John. I'm glad to be here.

John Dehlin [00:03:22] So, first of all, I'm just really curious to know what's been the reaction so far to your interview, or has there been one?

Joe Tippetts [00:03:32] Yeah, very positive. You saw that my. A lot of members of my family were watching and participating during the live interview, and then also some people that I hadn't met before have reached out to me and overwhelmingly with positive things to say. And so it's been a fun experience.

John Dehlin [00:04:00] I love it. Well, we're going to do something a little bit tricky because I first want to make sure listeners know, if you haven't heard the original interview with Joe, go back and listen to it. We go into depth. He's thoughtful, he's sensitive, and we covered a lot of ground about what caused him to leave and all that. I. I don't want to totally repeat that, but at the same time, I think we want to give people a little bit of an understanding just at the outset. So we'll just see how we go. Is that okay?

Joe Tippetts [00:04:33] Sure.

Joe Tippetts Describes His Unorthodox Beliefs

John Dehlin [00:04:33] Okay. So you had some thoughts or some insight about the title itself. Do you want to just say that really quick?

Joe Tippetts [00:04:40] Yeah. We were trying to decide what word would capture what we're trying to talk about today. And is it nuanced? Is it progressive? Is it. I suggested the word non traditional because it was important for me to have a word to convey the idea. It's just like if somebody joins the church as an adult, having never been a member, you might call them non traditional because they didn't grow up in it. And so some of the instincts that somebody would have being raised in the church, they might not quite have the same. And that's what I was trying to get at. I think sometimes other labels, I didn't want a label that would somehow imply that I think I'm more enlightened or have a bigger perspective than other people. I just see it as a different perspective. That's mine. And so that's the word we chose, Non traditional.

John Dehlin [00:05:42] Yeah. For me, you definitely come across as a humble guy, not a guy who thinks he knows better than other people or is superior in any way.

Joe Tippetts [00:05:50] My wife had a nickname for me, all Encompassing Judgment man, years ago, because I had an opinion on everything and I was sure I was right about it. And so.

John Dehlin [00:06:02] So that's been a change for you.

Joe Tippetts [00:06:05] Yeah, it was kind of a Joke and kind of not. Hopefully I've changed some.

Listener Questions: Why Return to Church?

John Dehlin [00:06:14] Okay, so I am going to ask a bunch of questions that my listeners wrote in, because they wrote in a bunch of interesting questions, and a lot of people are really interested in your story and how you do it. So I'm going to start with something, a question from Emory, and this will sort of review briefly why you started going back to church.

Joe Tippetts [00:06:35] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:06:35] So Emory asked, there had to be something that stirred up the feelings and emotions that made you feel like you needed to go back. What was it? After knowing. Emory says, after knowing all that, I know I would have to experience something close to seeing God for myself and him telling me to return that would make me consider returning. Curious what he experienced that caused him to return.

Joe Tippetts [00:07:01] Yeah, we kind of covered that. And I also wrote an essay right before I got baptized. Maybe in the show notes later we could link to that, because I think many of the questions people might have who I don't think most people listening know me, would be answered pretty in depth there.

Joe Tippetts [00:07:23] But one thing I want to bring up that during the last interview, I said that I hadn't had any inclination to return to church for years before this happened. That, and I was totally wrong. A year before that, I had tried to go to church for about three weeks.

Joe Tippetts [00:07:47] I was friends with my bishop, and I just forgot about this. So I wanted to correct the record. We went to lunch and I asked my bishop, what does it look like for me to just go to church. I don't want to get rebaptized. I don't want to be a member.

Joe Tippetts [00:08:02] I just want to participate as a member of the community here. And I tried that for three or four weeks and just felt, you know, it was fun to see a lot of friends each week, but I really just felt like a fish out of water and I stopped going.

Joe Tippetts [00:08:23] But if ward members heard the last one, they might have been wondering why. I said I hadn't felt that impulse for years. It was just in a much different way. It was not going back with the intention of trying to be a member. And it just lasted a few weeks. But do you want me to give a quick summary of.

John Dehlin [00:08:46] Yeah, just give the quick summary.

Joe Tippetts [00:08:47] So March 5th of last year, 2019, I got on Facebook, I saw a post from a friend, Paxton Gaiman. He wrote in the Mormon Stories podcast community that he was going to get rebaptized after being out of the church for 10 years.

Joe Tippetts [00:09:05] And that kind of triggered an experience where that I see as God talking to me. I don't want to try to get into detail since we're recovering it, but it was a sudden type of experience. It wasn't a gradual thought. It wasn't a process I thought through of how could I make this work? How can I fit my. Round me into that square, what is it, a square peg and a round hole or whatever that phrase is.

Joe Tippetts [00:09:52] It was much more of just an experience that I believe was with God. And this comes from somebody who. I didn't believe in God and I was very wary of emotion and emotional manipulation. And I just, I felt very confident that this was something I should act on.

Joe Tippetts [00:10:24] And so I did, not long before, but I acted first. And then after that there was about a little over a month between that experience and getting rebaptized. And in the lead up to it, I was having to think through all these questions of what do I believe now? Because when I had that experience, it didn't automatically replace the old version of a more traditional testimony that I had had in years past.

Joe Tippetts [00:11:02] The feeling was very much that I felt like I should go back despite my misgivings, not because I think there are no problems. And so that was the basis upon which I went back in the discussion a little bit last week.

Joe Tippetts [00:11:26] We talked about left brain and right brain. You know, kind of all the reasons not to be involved in the church or to feel critical of the church versus the reasons I was claiming for going. And what I described to John was that it just did not feel like it was any comparison. I felt just very, very clear that I should and I wanted to return to the church.

John Dehlin [00:12:01] Did you get a sense for why God wanted you to return to church? Did he. Did he communicate some sort of reason

Joe Tippetts [00:12:09] for this or mission in the days leading up to getting rebaptized? The natural connection I felt, the affinity I felt was for this ex Mormon or post Mormon community, not with the sense of I'm going to go rescue them all back into the church. It's more just this desire to try to help.

Joe Tippetts [00:12:35] There are some habitual ways we think about each other. By each other, I mean active members of the church and those who leave that I think are extremely unhealthy and maybe they were functional in years past, in an age when people were a little more isolated pre Internet.

Joe Tippetts [00:13:00] And so maybe a lot more people stayed involved in the church just because they didn't want to be rejected by their local community. And nowadays a lot of people leave and they aren't concerned about that because they can find a thousand friends very quickly. Online. And they can, especially if they're willing to get involved. They can go to meetups, they can.

Joe Tippetts [00:13:26] They can start to feel supported by people, even face to face, pretty easily today, at least in Utah and places where there are a lot of members of the church. So the dynamics have changed. And I feel just, if I feel a calling, There's so much.

Joe Tippetts [00:13:52] There's years of pain that people suffer that I don't think is required. I think of it like germs. How many centuries did people just die from germs just because of ignorance? And it feels like there's this. It feels like there's a way that we could learn some new things. And, and what used to feel like it killed relationships or caused people pain for years, if we just learned how to wash our hands a little and take a few steps to prevent it, we could.

Joe Tippetts [00:14:32] And so I don't see it as needing to be massive changes for people to have a much better quality of life when, whether they want to be in the church or not. One more thought on that is in the church, we talk a lot about agency, our ability to choose. Sometimes Elder Packer called it moral agency.

Joe Tippetts [00:14:59] And when you feel like you're questioning or may want to separate from the church, you don't feel like you have much of a choice because you feel like it's kind of a life or death decision for your marriage, for your relationship with your extended family, maybe with your kids, with your neighbors. And that when a choice is so fraught with danger, I know there's a lot of people who, despite what they might feel or be thinking in their head, they don't want to outwardly act on this agency.

Joe Tippetts [00:15:44] I think when people can truly make a choice, even if it's not what their wife or their parents would prefer, Then those who choose to stay in the church, it's a much more healthy experience. And for those who choose to leave, it doesn't have to be like a death and it doesn't have to be so catastrophic.

John Dehlin [00:16:11] And what I'm trying to understand is are you saying that you have a role to play in that? Like, let's just say we're talking about your ward. Are you saying that you have a hope that if there's someone doubting or questioning in your ward, you can become a resource for them so that either they don't leave or that if they do, it's less painful?

John Dehlin [00:16:34] And are you saying that you hope to be a resource where if somebody's leaving in the church or doubting in the church, you can sort of give them cover or have their back or be a support for them so that others treat them better. I'm trying to put some feet on the ground or some boots on the ground in terms of, like, abstractly what you're saying, but in practice, what role you're particularly playing in.

John Dehlin [00:17:03] You talk about germs and how it doesn't need to be this hard and people don't need to suffer. But I'm trying to understand if what you're saying is you think you have a role in maybe alleviating that suffering in one way or another.

Joe Tippetts [00:17:18] My hope would be that the ideals that I'm sharing are something that I could model with people around me. I don't. I don't have any kind of ambition to be, you know, to start the. You know, how to do this foundation and be.

Joe Tippetts [00:17:40] Play any kind of role like that. It's more like. I'm thinking of a neighbor of mine. She's from Chile, and we have onse sometimes that's kind of like dinner, and she's not a member, and we're friends, and it's as simple as that.

Joe Tippetts [00:18:08] I don't see myself. You kind of used a couple of ways of describing it. For example, if I saw somebody who I go to church with each week and suddenly they disappeared and we were friends, I would hope that I'm a person who sends them a text, hey, how you doing?

Joe Tippetts [00:18:30] And the difference is subtle between saying I want to rescue them versus just saying I want to love them. Because as a believer, people would feel that those two are the same thing. You know, bringing them back to the fold is the same as loving them.

Joe Tippetts [00:18:54] And I would want people to feel like they're valid and our friendship matters whether they come back or not. And I would hope to want. I want to put time into those relationships. When you go to church every week with people you have, however many people are in a ward that you just kind of automatically see every week because everybody shows up. And so those are relationships that are easier to have touch points because you all just kind of show up every week and see each other and maybe shake hands or say hi.

Joe Tippetts [00:19:39] When somebody steps out of that, then you have to go out of your way more to interact with that person. And I just. In some ways, I'm thinking out loud, it's more this thing I have in my heart.

Joe Tippetts [00:20:02] But I also think it's not just abstract, it's very practical. And I think if you watch how kids interact, it's as simple as that. If you put a couple of kids in a nursery or in a sandbox and they don't know each other and give them a couple of toys, within five minutes it's going to seem like they're lifelong friends. They're just having fun together, playing. They don't stop and ask each other, let's see, what's your skin color, what's your religion, what's your sexual preference or gender orientation or, you know, it's. And I want to see people that way. And I think that aligns with the values of the church. But it gets obscured sometimes in our enthusiasm to not just love people but also try to convert them.

John Dehlin [00:20:57] So you don't. What I'm hearing you say is you don't necessarily have the explicit mission to keep people active in the church.

Joe Tippetts [00:21:06] No.

John Dehlin [00:21:08] And you don't have the explicit. You certainly don't have the desire to get them out.

Joe Tippetts [00:21:15] Certainly not, I think.

John Dehlin [00:21:16] But also not to. So is there a little bit of like, hey, maybe I can keep them from leaving? You know, if I can find a way to help them not leave and they could stay and enjoy and they don't have to leave, that'd be good.

Joe Tippetts [00:21:33] If somebody is feeling, say they confront information about Joseph Smith, say they listen to a Mormon Stories episode or get a hold of the CES letter and so suddenly they're scared that these things they feel very committed to and have given so much to are a fraud.

Joe Tippetts [00:21:57] I would like to be in a position to be with that person at that moment in time because the experience of so many when that happens is they try to approach somebody and instead of feeling understood, I think people members get defensive and there's precedent for, for them feeling like the best thing they can do is bear their testimony or really not address the question.

Joe Tippetts [00:22:31] Often the response is just very emotional and fear based. And what it tells that person is, okay, this person isn't safe for me to talk to about these things. And so even if they have that conversation and hug each other at the end like it was helpful, I think that person goes away.

Joe Tippetts [00:22:56] Note to self, that's not the person to talk to. And they're jumping online and they're in the background, they're watching conversations happen. Whether it's in Facebook comments or listening to podcasts, they're watching conversations happen. And the conversations feel more authentic because it doesn't feel like there's somebody with one goal of preventing them from leaving. Instead, it just feels like people are talking openly about what might feel like the reality.

Joe Tippetts [00:23:37] But even that can be if you feel distrustful about the church and angry, then those conversations are probably going to focus a lot more on kind of hurtful claims. Like if it might be common for somebody to characterize Joseph Smith as

John Dehlin [00:24:07] a

Joe Tippetts [00:24:07] word like pedophile, like just summarize that man in or sexual predator, dismissing every other possible thing about who he was, what he represented. And I don't think those are truth either because they're very biased in a different direction. I'm forgetting what your question was.

John Dehlin [00:24:37] Are you trying to help? If somebody would be inclined to leave, but you can talk to them in a way to where it might help them through it, to where they stay, do you consider that a bonus?

Joe Tippetts [00:24:48] I would love them to stay because I.

John Dehlin [00:24:50] You do want people to stay if

Joe Tippetts [00:24:51] they want to, if they want to. But if they don't want to, I want them to know that I care about them. And they're valid either way. But I think there's a lot of benefits to church membership that people who feel deceived and upset, they kind of run away from the church sometimes rather quickly.

Joe Tippetts [00:25:21] And the feeling you have inside when that happens is do what is right, let the consequence follow. You feel like you're doing the right thing, but you go through some really hard years. And maybe it's not the right thing for everybody to do. Maybe for some people being able to be in a space where they can have a different kind of conversation about the church, not one that is 100% critical, but also one that is very willing to acknowledge history.

Joe Tippetts [00:26:14] If we can have conversations like that, maybe a person can feel like there's a valid place within the church that doesn't just feel like a cop out, like they have to pretend they agree with something when they really don't.

John Dehlin [00:26:31] Okay, we'll come back to stuff in the ward. There's people that want to just know. Barbara asks, are feelings a reliable way of determining if something is true or correct? If you hadn't felt guided to return and no one else would be hurt and no one else would judge you, is that the lifestyle or dogma that you would choose for yourselves and your family? Let me separate those out. So the first question is like, you know, the guys who flew the plane in the Twin Towers felt like God told them to do that. Warren Jeffs followers would say that God is telling them to follow. Warren Jeffs I am sure that we could find scenarios where people claim that God was telling them to do something. Where you, Joe, would probably say, I don't think God, the God I know and love wouldn't tell them to do that.

Trusting Feelings and Reasoning in Faith Decisions

Joe Tippetts [00:27:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:19] And so that begs the question, and this is a obvious question to ask you, and I know you've thought about it, is, what if it's just a dream? What if it's just your subconscious? What if it's just thoughts that your brain manufactures?

John Dehlin [00:27:36] Are thoughts and feelings coming into your brain even reliable enough to sort of base life decisions on? Because some would say, okay, at some moment you felt those feelings, you had that thought come into your brain. But you still have your knowledge of the problems with the church.

John Dehlin [00:27:54] So one thing you could do is just obey what comes in your brain. Another thing you could do is like, go, okay, I just had that stuff come into my brain. But all sorts of stuff comes in all sorts of people's brains.

John Dehlin [00:28:05] And I know that the church is deeply problematic, so I'm not going to just obey that thing that came in my brain. Does that make sense? And I'm not trying to be. I'm not trying to be disrespectful at all. I think this is a fair question and it's meant with respect.

Joe Tippetts [00:28:19] Totally, yeah, it's a fair question because there's a lot of people I would, you know, I think most televangelists, I would. I might look at them and roll my eyes and they might be saying they know it's true. And.

Joe Tippetts [00:28:39] A lot of fellow members of the church get up in sacrament meeting and say things that they know are true. And I don't think that means most members necessarily always agree with them. I think it comes down to the principle of trusting your judgment.

Joe Tippetts [00:29:05] What's the alternative? If I say I don't trust what comes into my mind and heart, who am I trusting? Am I subbing that out to science, a prophet? Harvard Business Review? You know, people who seem smart, at some point, all of us are having to take in information, process it and make a judgment.

Joe Tippetts [00:29:33] Whether we call it a feeling or a thought, we have to process those things. How would you describe falling in love? You certainly wouldn't call that a process where some people might be analytical about that. I had a planner when I was dating, and I had this little grid I had made of things I was looking for in a wife because I was.

Joe Tippetts [00:30:06] I was actively pursuing that. And so you could call that kind of an analytical approach. But in the end, my wife and I went on our first date to the circus, then the Salt Palace. And during a break, we were walking through the hall and she kind of bumped me with her hip. And it was like, whoa.

John Dehlin [00:30:31] And

Joe Tippetts [00:30:33] you know, that sounds trivial, but I just felt a connection to her. And so relatively quickly, we made this lifelong decision and somebody could look at the process we went through to do that, and it would seem foolish.

Joe Tippetts [00:30:56] So I think it's that paradox that you have to let everybody choose. We could look at Warren Jeffs or one of his followers and say, can't they see how crazy this is? And other people could look at Latter Day Saints and say, can't they see how crazy they are? And yet we're each born into a culture, into a family, and if we're raised in a loving way and, and we like that lifestyle, what is this external authority the questioner would be referring to outside of what each person just feels they should do? I don't know, but it feels definitely like something I should act on for me. And that would be different for each person. That's why I don't feel like I can apply my experience to anybody else.

John Dehlin [00:32:05] Maybe one. One way to rephrase the question or at least to re analyze it. You know, I watched a really interesting Netflix documentary on flat Earthers, right? On people that believe the Earth is flat. I mean, you, I think any of us who have studied science, you know, realize that the Earth is. Is round and that, that it goes around the sun and that, you know, just. Just Copernicus and Galileo and Einstein, like you get enough of an education, you realize that we live in this big universe, which is one of many universes, and that we live on a planet and the moon revolves around it, and science just kind of establishes that.

John Dehlin [00:32:50] And so let's just say one day I had. I was watching that Netflix episode and some guy was bearing his testimony that the Earth was flat and shot into me this overwhelming feeling of, like, inspiration that the Earth was flat. I probably wouldn't just go, oh my gosh. Well, I mean, I've got this overwhelming feeling I would still have the evidence.

Joe Tippetts [00:33:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:14] And the evidence would go, I don't care what I felt. I know enough of the evidence to know that there isn't flat. And so I have to figure out what to do with those feelings I felt. But it doesn't change the evidence if somebody were to compare that to the church, if you know that there are all these problems and we don't have to enumerate them. But you talked about last time, the probability the Book of Mormon's historical is very low. You're not concerned about the one true church. You would call Joseph's polygamy problematic. Lots of Problems with the church that that evidence would override whatever, you know, some would say, and some do say that for them, the evidence that they know just would override any feeling they might receive.

Joe Tippetts [00:33:59] Yeah. And that's a valid way to think. My first thought would be that I want to be careful in this interview to not come across like an apologist, because that's not my stance.

John Dehlin [00:34:16] I don't get that sense at all.

Joe Tippetts [00:34:17] It's not you or these questions telling me why somebody shouldn't be in the church and then me telling you why you should.

John Dehlin [00:34:24] No, no, no.

Joe Tippetts [00:34:25] That's not the focus.

John Dehlin [00:34:25] That's clear.

Joe Tippetts [00:34:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:26] No, they're asking about you.

Joe Tippetts [00:34:27] Yeah. For me personally, what if there were a hundred pieces of evidence that somebody could bring up and they seem pretty strong and somebody who didn't want to be part of the church? That would feel like a huge mountain of evidence, especially when taken together, but they wouldn't be counting.

Joe Tippetts [00:34:57] There's all the other kinds of evidence, too, that the CES letter isn't talking about. What would make Ted Nelson use vacation time, precious vacation time, to take a bunch of Boy Scouts and to put in hundreds of hours a year into caring. And I know this isn't church specific. This is just people loving each other. Right. So it's not saying this is the something you can only get if you're in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, but the church is one place where things like that happen a lot.

Joe Tippetts [00:35:45] But for me, as great as those reasons are, and you might categorize those under the umbrella of community or social reasons, it's all still very secondary to me when compared with believing God is real. For a long time I didn't, and I believe God's real.

Joe Tippetts [00:36:15] And in any kind of discussion where the goal is to do a rational weighing of benefits versus, you know, is the earth flat or is it not? Well, let's go take a look and we can settle this. It's one of those things where somebody like me is going to say, I overwhelmingly believe this, knowing that I have a friend who's a witness of Jehovah is how he termed it. I know outside of that church, we call them sometimes JDubs or whatever, nicknames. But I want to call him what he preferred to call himself. He said, I'm a witness of Jehovah, and I feel that he is a really good man, and I wouldn't want to.

Joe Tippetts [00:37:21] I bring up that church specifically because a lot of times it's clumped in the same category with this church as being kind of a little bit more demanding and maybe exclusive in terms of claiming to be the only true church or whatever.

Joe Tippetts [00:37:47] I just worked with him for a few years, and I really like him and I trust him. I think he's a good man, and I think his religion inspires him. Do I have to compare what I think with what he thinks and somehow reconcile that, like, one of us is right and one of us is wrong? I don't feel that need.

Joe Tippetts [00:38:07] I feel like each person has the right to decide what path their life should be, And that's the approach they get to take. And I guess the line where you have to stop people is if they're hurting somebody.

Joe Tippetts [00:38:36] And so if their choice, if somebody wants to be a flat Earther, as ignorant as that may sound, that's their choice. And I would imagine that if people are doing that, they probably are part of a community and they have a lot of reasons for wanting to uphold that view, even when it seems ignorant. And I wouldn't disqualify myself from fitting that same dynamic. When I speak here and say I want to be in this church because I believe God, because I feel deeply that this is where God wants me to be. And I can just. Am I answering your question?

John Dehlin [00:39:20] Yeah. If I had to explain it for you, based on my understanding, it would be. Most orthodox Mormons are taught to think along the plane of, is the church true or not? And their whole life they're just, is it true or it's not? If it's true, I'm in. If it's not true, I'm leaving. And so there's this kind of binary, in or out, true or false, black or white. And obviously that's supported by Gordon B. Hinckley and statements of many past prophets. It's either everything it claims to be your biggest fraud ever perpetrated. You can get lots of prophets who have said that thing.

John Dehlin [00:39:56] It sounds to me like. Either that axis, is it important to you? Or it's less important to you. And I could think of two other axises that are important to you. You're thinking along different dimensions. The second axis is, you know, I think the primary axis for you is, does God want me to be here? And it could be just as possible that God said, go be among the Flat Earthers, or go be among the Jehovah's Witnesses, or go be among the people on your street. It's just God. It's kind of like Nineveh and Jonah. God sent you to these people, and so you're thinking along that line, not as a true or false.

Finding Meaning and Community in the Church

John Dehlin [00:40:41] And then there's probably another axis which is like, where can I do good and where can I experience good? Where can I be a part of something where I can just love people? And this is a place to love people.

John Dehlin [00:40:56] And so it's not. You're just less concerned about the truth claims, more concerned about what you feel God has told you to do and what type of experience you can both have and generate for others by being part of this community God told you to be a part of.

Joe Tippetts [00:41:13] Yeah, Those are fair characterizations. This word God, if you read Eckhart Tolle, he says instead of using the word God, he likes to use the word being. Because God can be so fraught. And if somebody is feeling like the idea of God is foolish, then if you bring it up as your reason, then you just seem foolish.

Joe Tippetts [00:41:51] And so I'd like to suggest, if that's the easy way you're thinking about it right now, use a different word that encapsulates like, use goodness or your ideals. What do you strive for to be? Instead of thinking of it as an anthropomorphized guy with a beard in heaven in a white robe, think of it in a different way. Because we all have this concept of values and what we're striving for and what we perceive as good.

Joe Tippetts [00:42:33] And so if a person feels like the conversation of God told me to do, it sounds ridiculous. I would say, what do you feel driven to do? What do you feel compelled to do? What do you feel in your soul and heart?

Joe Tippetts [00:42:50] Each person is different in terms of our abilities and our tastes. And so that thing that's drawing you, you may not call it God, but it's kind of pulling you toward what you feel like you're meant to do in life to be happy. And I would see that in similar

John Dehlin [00:43:14] terms that you're feeling just pulled in this direction.

Joe Tippetts [00:43:18] Yeah. Because if you use the word, if we just focus on the idea of Joseph felt God and he's back to church, you can easily dismiss that as, okay, Joe's a nutcase, move on, not interesting. Whereas, okay, so let's just use vocabulary that's more inclusive of people that may or may not believe in God. And that's what I'm trying to get at with this idea of what keeps you up at night excited, what do you wake up, what gets you up in the morning, what do you dream about?

Joe Tippetts [00:43:53] And whatever you call that thing that's inside of you that draws you towards Something good and your best self. I might call that God. And I'm happy for you to call it whatever you need to call it, whatever feels appropriate to you. But I feel like those are kind of the same dynamics, and that's why I don't feel called, I guess, to try to convince other people to be like me. I feel called to.

Joe Tippetts [00:44:31] Excuse me. I just. I want to help create spaces where people feel loved and can be their best selves. In fact. Well, I won't. I'll bring this up a different time. I want to talk in language where instead of people dismissing each other with one word, instead we can keep the conversation going with, oh, yeah, here's how I feel that dynamic in my life.

Joe Tippetts [00:45:09] And, okay, what's important to you, what's meaningful to you, that's a conversation we can have, and that's where we have a lot of overlap. Whereas if certain vocabulary just instantly divides people, then it's kind of end of discussion and people walk away not really respecting each other when the opposite could so easily happen. If we just learn how to wash our hands, so to speak, to avoid what I compared to germs earlier.

Motivations and Self-Reflection on Returning

John Dehlin [00:45:40] Okay. All right. Well, thanks for taking that tougher question. And thanks to those who helped ask it. Dave writes, is Joe introspective enough to ask himself what other motives he might have had to rejoin the church? He says, might it be missing the community that led you to rejoin? Is it easier with your wife and kids now that you've rejoined, or your parents or your siblings? Could it be that your own emotional discomfort with being outside of church drew you back in, instead of God calling you, in other words, and this sounds condescending, so maybe I'll reword it, but

Joe Tippetts [00:46:19] you can read it as is. It's okay.

John Dehlin [00:46:20] Have you considered that sort of question to be introspective?

Joe Tippetts [00:46:27] I sure hope I am. I try to be introspective. And we touched on this in the last interview about, you know, did I feel lonely or was I missing the community? And my answer was that on a subconscious level, certainly I was constantly looking for, You know, building communities and identifying. But I was also very much out of the church, and. I didn't connect with its teachings and its practices. And so I, like, I brought up at the start of this that a year before, I had tried to go back, but I was very clear. I didn't feel that call in the sense of thinking God wanted me there. I was going there for a few weeks not believing in God and telling my bishop that I wasn't trying to go there to be baptized. And so community, it's certainly a pull for me,

John Dehlin [00:47:46] but not the. But it's just. I mean, it's just. It's God, really. It's not.

Joe Tippetts [00:47:53] If it was just community, I wouldn't have gone back because I tried that and I didn't go back. I just kind of got bothered by

John Dehlin [00:48:03] pressures from your wife or your kids?

Joe Tippetts [00:48:05] My wife and kids were out. My wife has been coming, some with me. A daughter just at the start of this year decided to start coming, but my three other kids are out. And so there certainly weren't pressures where my immediate family were trying to pull me back in and my ward wasn't trying to pull me back in.

John Dehlin [00:48:35] Okay. Okay. Thanks for being such a good support, Joe.

Joe Tippetts [00:48:41] Yeah. None of these questions are off limits. I'm totally comfortable with what people are saying, and if there's a little edge to them, that's fine, because a year ago, I would have probably felt very similar.

Privilege and Honesty in Returning to Activity

John Dehlin [00:48:56] Okay. Somebody asks, and then we're going to get into kind of how you do it, because there's a lot of people want to know how you do it. Natalie asks, do you think deeply about your status as a white, straight, cisgender male and how much that has made returning to the church more advantageous or possible for you versus if your identity were harmed by the teachings of the church? So if you were gay, if you're lesbian, bisexual, transgender, a feminist, whatever. Is privilege allowing this to happen for you?

Joe Tippetts [00:49:31] Probably so. At Thrive, I talk to the people from Encircle. What's their tagline again?

John Dehlin [00:49:42] No sides, only love.

Joe Tippetts [00:49:44] I totally love that.

John Dehlin [00:49:45] That's great. Isn't that great?

Joe Tippetts [00:49:47] Yeah. I was talking to them and I was thinking, If I was a married gay man, would I do this? Or if I was, you know, I don't pretend to have an empathy level knowledge, but I sure hope I have a desire to care about people. And I think my wife has.

Joe Tippetts [00:50:23] Has helped open my eyes to a lot of things over the years. She's very much a feminist and. She's small. She's half Asian, half Japanese, and she definitely sees things from a way different perspective than I do. And she has a different experience than I have. So I 100% recognize that I go back to the church as kind of the typical looking what a church leader looks like. If I shave my beard off, I would look like kind of the stereotype of what you think a church leader looks like.

Joe Tippetts [00:51:11] And that is a place of privilege. But that's who I am. So I don't know how to. Should I feel guilt about it? Should I. What can I do about it? My heart wants to. This will come up when we talk about just the day to day, you know, experiencing the church and being in the lessons. When. When somebody stands up and talks about the proclamation, It definitely creates some thoughtfulness in me. And there's a fine line between wanting to go to church and change other people's minds versus just wanting to go to church and.

Joe Tippetts [00:52:15] Speak sincerely and hopefully with some humility about what I feel that might be different. That's a really fine line because I don't want to be in the church as an activist, but I know it can come across that way.

Joe Tippetts [00:52:36] But getting back to your question, how do I feel about being. I definitely recognized I go in as a privileged person. And I looked over a few of these questions, and I think that was one of the questions I specifically liked because I thought it was an important question. And I would like to consider that more. Maybe if you're listening or if you hear this later, write me more about that. I would like to think about that more.

Joe Tippetts [00:53:10] What you would expect me to do as a white male with a lot of privilege. I can. I guess my thought is, how do I use that privilege? Do I use it just to benefit myself and enjoy it, or can I use it to be helpful to people who don't have that?

Joe Tippetts [00:53:46] And I don't say that in a condescending way like I'm white guy here to save the day. I say it from a stance of I want to learn more.

John Dehlin [00:54:01] Yeah, yeah. It sounds like if you're able to use your privilege and there's skin color, there's gender, there's sexual orientation, there's age, there's education, there's also kind of knowledge of church history that's kind of a privilege in the Mormon context. And there's empathy about faith crisis privilege and having been through a faith crisis privilege. And it sounds like part of your intent is to use all that to help others. And so that's part of the answer. I think you were trying to. You were saying that, at least in part. Brian asks, why would a person continue to support such an organization after knowing firsthand the harm that the organization has caused so many innocent people, like gays, feminists, and intellectuals. I mean, to quote Boyd K. Packer, you know, why wouldn't the harm that the church and every answer can be because God told me to.

Joe Tippetts [00:54:56] So that's not how I would answer this one. And this is a fair Question. When I wrote the. I did a write up about why I was returning to the church last April. And I think, let's see, it was.

Joe Tippetts [00:55:23] Was it the Friday before General Conference that it was announced that the policy was being reversed, if I'm remembering right, And Facebook kind of blew up and it wasn't people saying, hooray, I'm so glad the church changed its mind, or whatever.

Joe Tippetts [00:55:47] It was people that were really mad and sad and hurt. And. I hope I can be. I can't. I can't. When I left the church, this was the exact type of stuff that disgusted me, that caused me to not want my name associated with the church.

Joe Tippetts [00:56:23] And when I returned, I just felt like I had a discussion with a member. And I said, what would it look like for a married gay couple to come to our ward? They live in our neighborhood. Now, that.

Joe Tippetts [00:56:54] That's assuming they would even want to, which can be a stretch, but there are those that want to. And I was just trying to do a thought experiment of could our ward, how would we receive them? Would people be mad if two men, if one had the arm around another, like so many of us do with our wife during church, would people feel disgust? Would they feel angry?

Joe Tippetts [00:57:36] I can just say I hope to be one. And I know I'm not the only one. But who could prioritize loving people and wanting them to be part of my circle more than I care about what kind of sin or not sin is part of their life.

Joe Tippetts [00:58:03] I don't want to characterize, for me personally, I don't characterize being gay as a sin, including living a gay lifestyle. But I know my church. That's a teaching of my church. You're asking a hard question, kind of like, I bear the weight of the whole history of the church.

Joe Tippetts [00:58:34] And. You could have the same dynamics in your family. What if your grandpa was a rapist? What if you're, you know, what do you. That's a bad example, because, I don't know, maybe it is a good example. There are relationships that you commit to or that you're part of, and just because there are some negative aspects to it.

Joe Tippetts [00:59:11] Maybe a better example is the conversation I had with some co workers recently. Something had happened and. And people were talking about Trump and somebody said, these days, if anybody on Facebook says anything positive about Trump, I just unfriend him and that relationship's over.

Joe Tippetts [00:59:35] And I thought, I didn't vote for Trump, and I don't particularly. I don't like him at all. But is it going to be My stance that I don't like people who voted for Trump. No, I love people who voted, some people who voted for Trump.

Joe Tippetts [00:59:56] And I think even with the hard, Hard issues like the church's views about LGBT people and the ramifications that have come out of that, I can just say I want to be a person who prioritizes love. And then worries about other things less. I know it's not a good answer.

John Dehlin [01:00:36] I think a lot of people, when asked this question in your situation, say, I live in America, but America assassinates generals of other countries or drops bombs on people that has civilian casualties. I don't leave the country is flawed. As much as I may not like the president, as much as the. The country may hurt people, I'm. This is my country, and this is where I live. And I accept that there's bad here, but I wouldn't be able to find a perfect country. So this is my country. I think that's how a lot of people answer that.

Joe Tippetts [01:01:11] But I wouldn't say it in a way that justifies things so easy. There's kind of a flippant way to answer that. That's easy. And then there's a way where, you know, like when I removed my name from the church, like I just said, that was pretty central to that decision. And so I just hope I'm coming across as you're not.

Joe Tippetts [01:01:44] The person who answered this question is most likely not going to agree with my decision. It might feel like the only choice is to not be part of a church if they've done things you disagree with. And I don't feel that way about relationships in general, whether it's with my church or my family or friends. I don't want to say, oh, you're a Republican or you're a Trump supporter or you're a Mormon and suddenly have that mean that I can't be a relationship with you. That feels like it's defining a person by one thing instead of the whole person.

John Dehlin [01:02:29] Right?

Practical Logistics of Returning to Church

Part 2 of 3 · Ep. 1242

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Sa. So a lot of people want to just know how you do it. So let's spend a lot of time just kind of on the practical elements. Blake wanted to know the logistics of making the change back. So you go to your bishop and you say, I want to come back to church. What? And let's try and cover these as punchy as we can because we've got about an hour left. What was the waiting time? And then after we talked about this last time, the waiting time to get baptized. There's the baptismal interview and then there's the getting baptized, but then waiting to have your temple blessings restored. If you want that talk about what the process is. You talked about just there, a moment where all your blessings are restored.

Joe Tippetts [00:01:15] Yeah. If you left voluntarily like I did, versus being excommunicated, as in your situation. John. The procedure that my bishop understood was that basically you're coming back and need to be able to pass the baptismal interview, meaning you're willing to pay tithing, you're willing to keep the word of wisdom, you know, the commitments you're familiar with. I didn't have.

John Dehlin [00:01:53] When he asked you about the rest, did he ask you the temple recommend questions like, you know, do you believe in Joseph Smith or do you believe in the restoration or do you believe in the Book of Mormon? Did he ask you or that Russell M. Nelson's the prophet? Like, yeah.

Joe Tippetts [00:02:06] And if you look at the questions, the temple recommend questions are a little different than the baptism. But if you look at the questions, they never ask you if you know something is true. And I glanced at the ones for the temple recommend, I want to finish this answer on process real quick in terms of returning to the church. So you meet with your bishop and basically, if you're demonstrating that you're sincere in your desire to come back and willing to follow the standards of the church, you, you can come back rather quickly. I, I came, I was rebaptized about a month, I think, after the first meeting with my bishop.

John Dehlin [00:02:52] Wow.

Joe Tippetts [00:02:53] And you know, I was. It wasn't a session, it wasn't interviews with him about trying to convince me I wanted to be there. And so it was more about just talking about some of the nuance that you were bringing up a second ago after I joined. When you do return, there is a one year waiting period where I didn't get the priesthood and I don't attend the temple even like a youth would with baptisms for the dead.

Joe Tippetts [00:03:31] After one year, I have another interview that I think would be more like a Temple recommend interview, and that's coming up in April. And then if my leaders feel like I can pass that interview, then I would have an ordinance called the Restoration of Blessings. And in that I would return to having the Melchizedek priesthood and being endowed in the temple.

Joe Tippetts [00:04:07] My wife's activity has been kind of in and out of the church, but she never left. And so in terms of the sealing and so forth, we wouldn't need to redo those things. So that's the process. But then you were getting onto the questions about kind of nuance.

Navigating Baptism and Membership Interview Questions

John Dehlin [00:04:29] Yeah.

Joe Tippetts [00:04:29] So

John Dehlin [00:04:33] Blake writes, isn't part of rebaptism claiming that you believe all of the truth claims? How did you get past the truth claims?

Joe Tippetts [00:04:42] All of the truth claims? There's a lot of truth claims out there. I would say the core truth claims. And when I talk about how I view Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon in a pretty non traditional way, the interviews use the word believe.

Joe Tippetts [00:05:09] And when it asks how I view President Nelson, it doesn't ask me if I know or even believe. It asks if I sustain. And so for me, it's an act of faith to say in our lesson this last Sunday, we're starting to study the Book of Mormon this year, and somebody brought up Alma 32. And I would think I'm in the realm of, you know, out in that scripture, it says something like, if you can do nothing more than desire to believe, I desire to believe.

Joe Tippetts [00:06:03] I don't necessarily desire to believe the same way I believed in the past. When I say I desire to believe, it's my desire to use the traditions of the church and to embrace them in a way that tries to help me be a better person.

Joe Tippetts [00:06:26] You may not believe the Book of Mormon is historical or factual. You may believe that Joseph Smith made it up. And so if you were in that camp, you would maybe call it fraudulent or whatever. I see the Book of Mormon as a book that if I study it in a prayerful way, I believe I can use that as a basis. Just like we talk about Joseph.

Joe Tippetts [00:06:55] Excuse me, we talk about the catalyst theory with. I see the Book of Mormon as something that can be a catalyst to put me in a mode of being thoughtful and quickly. The catalyst theory is the idea that instead of Joseph directly translating the plates, actually he didn't even look at the plates a lot of the time. He was looking in the hat at the seer stone. But the Book of Mormon or the Scrolls of Abraham were thought of as objects, as kind of a catalyst to help him receive revelation and so I guess I would see the Book of Mormon kind of in that way where.

Joe Tippetts [00:07:37] And other scripture and a lot of art and a lot of things can be catalysts for putting. Getting us in a mindset that's pensive, thoughtful, and conducive to. I'll call it inspiration. And in that sense, I very much believe in it.

John Dehlin [00:08:03] I'm looking at. I just Googled, like, baptism questions for LDS Church. Tell me if these are the ones you had. Do you believe that God is our eternal Father? Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the Savior and Redeemer of the world? Does that sound like.

Joe Tippetts [00:08:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:17] Okay. And you were okay saying God's a father, meaning male, or are you able to kind of interpret that loosely?

Joe Tippetts [00:08:26] Yeah, it would be, I think, in very symbolic terms. I see that as one way God can manifest himself, but not only a father. Yeah. If my brother, for example, might. If I said, how would you define God? It might be energy in the universe. And I don't think that's a wrong answer. I see that as another way somebody might think of the highest power.

John Dehlin [00:09:00] And it's kind of a weird question because Mormons technically believe that there's a mother in heaven, too. That makes her a God goddess.

Joe Tippetts [00:09:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:06] But then why isn't it mentioning God? Why isn't it mentioning heavenly parents? I mean, I guess they don't want to get into that with investigators. But it is a weird question, given our theology slightly. Right.

Joe Tippetts [00:09:17] Yeah. Yeah. We.

John Dehlin [00:09:18] Like, why doesn't it say, do you believe that our heavenly parents are gods? That would be a more. Seems like that would be a more theologically consistent Mormon question.

Joe Tippetts [00:09:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:29] Is that right?

Joe Tippetts [00:09:30] And the young women's theme now refers to heavenly parents, while the young men's theme does not. Yet.

John Dehlin [00:09:38] Yeah. So it just takes a while to iron everything out. So do you believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God, the Savior and redeemer of the world? And now I. So you're. What is your Christology, if that's the right word, your atonement? Like, is it. Do you take those words also very loosely, or are you. Do you believe that Christ literally suffered in the garden for all our sins and that he died and was resurrected and that it's only through him will return Heavenly Father? Is that an important part, or do you interpret those words to mean other things?

Joe Tippetts [00:10:14] I feel like Christ. It's an important. I'm saying it because I'm referring to Christ as a symbol. Christ is a title. You know, we say Jesus the Christ. I love Christ and I want to have my life guided by Christ. But when my immigrant family tells me they love Allah and they want their lives guided by Allah, I don't see us talking about two different things. And so I'm okay with the idea of Christ and the garden, you know, suffering for all our sins. That feels like very symbolic language. You know, we talk about bleeding from every pore, and.

Joe Tippetts [00:11:24] I'm fine with seeing that as a story that conveys the truth of our ability to live beyond this life and of the power of forgiveness that not only Christ offers to us, but that we can offer to each other. So to answer your question in a shorter way, Christ and the Father and the Holy Ghost, I would see as symbolic representations of God. And I'm not going to worry too much about, does God have a white beard? Does he look like Zeus? That stuff just feels like cosmetics to me.

John Dehlin [00:12:16] But some would trip on the question, the wording of the question. Do you believe that Jesus Christ, not just the role of Christ, but the human who lived on the earth named Jesus Christ, is the Son, not just like, is the Son of God and the Savior and Redeemer of the world. It's trying to get really literal there. Is it fair to say that you're just sort of saying, I recognize it's trying to be really literal. I'll say yes to that question, but in my mind, it's not that literal. It's a lot more symbolic than it is literal. But somehow I'm okay telling the bishop. Yes.

Joe Tippetts [00:12:56] It doesn't specify all that, though. It lets me interpret it how I want. And I can say yes to that very honestly. Even if what I'm picturing in my head is different than what a stake president is picturing in his head when he asked me.

John Dehlin [00:13:09] And even if you were able to, you know, we asked this last time, but, like, if Dallin H. Oaks were to hear your justification and say, actually, that's not what we mean. This liberal mamby, Pamby symbolic stuff, I'm talking about 10 fingers, 10 toes, beard, Son of God, DNA, God had sex with Mary. Jesus came out, he came to the earth. Was right. Like literal Jesus. I mean, I guess they don't.

Joe Tippetts [00:13:36] I think if President Oaks wanted to specify all that, I think as a senior apostle and First Presidency member, he would have a voice for trying to get that into the questions. But if you look at the questions, they leave a lot of room for each person to interpret. And I don't think that is me sneaking tiptoeing around or being sneaky. I think it's meant to be a little bit vague. You know, if you see God as a child, we see God in one way and we see Noah and the Ark in one way, and we take them all literally.

Joe Tippetts [00:14:18] And then I think the essence behind whatever form we talk about with God, I think the essence behind that is something a lot of us can share much more easily than if I try to die on the hill of God, wears a white robe and sandals. And, you know, I. That doesn't feel like the spirit of the question at all.

John Dehlin [00:14:49] Yeah, no, that's fair. And I, you know, when I wrote the Stale DS website, I said the same thing about the temple recommend questions, that they're intentionally vague. They're not allowed to add anything to it. And you're your own judge, you're allowed to interpret it. And that was all by design.

Joe Tippetts [00:15:07] You may have a leader that. That wants to prod on that, and that's each leader's prerogative. We know how that works. And so if I were to confront that, I just want to try to be as honest. And if somebody digs, I won't try to hide. I'll try to elaborate on what I'm doing here publicly. And, you know, even if.

John Dehlin [00:15:32] And the truth is, they don't care if you want to come and you want to show up if you're not going to cause trouble. They don't care how you fill in the blanks, honestly, they just are glad you're there as long as you're not causing trouble.

Joe Tippetts [00:15:43] I can be honest and I can try to act with goodwill. And if a leader feels like I don't qualify, for me, that's not a test of whether I want to stay in the church. I want to be in the church and I want to be a fully participating member. And if a leader were to feel that way, maybe I wait five years and a different leader feels differently. I have a friend who's a bishop and he's also a scientist, PhD, and. So he would have a very nuanced perspective. We talked recently and it just made my jaw drop. And it reminded me that we can all be members and we don't have to see everything the same way.

John Dehlin [00:16:42] Yeah. And just going on to read the other questions, it's been a long time since I was a missionary, but it doesn't say anything about Joseph Smith. It doesn't even say anything about, you know, the prophet. I don't think, Let me just say,

Joe Tippetts [00:17:00] and the baptism, it doesn't say something about the restoration. Let's see, I might be mixed up with the temple recommend.

John Dehlin [00:17:06] Well, it says. Oh, I'm sorry. So, yeah, the question too is, do you believe the church and gospel of Jesus Christ have been restored through the prophet Joseph Smith? So I'm sorry, I'm wrong. It does mention Joseph Smith and it asks you if you believe that the church and gospel of Jesus Christ have been restored through Joseph Smith.

Joe Tippetts [00:17:26] Yeah. On some of these, the question can imply exclusivity. I believe the version of the gospel that I was raised with was restored through Joseph Smith. And other people might add words to that question in their mind. You know, is it the only true gospel and the only true church? And I wouldn't be inclined to lean in that direction. When I listened to the Dalai Lama, I sense some really good things that maybe you could say he's restored. And so in terms of Joseph Smith or other prophets, I can sustain them as prophets. And I don't see that as excluding my ability from seeing other voices is prophetic too.

Redefining Prophets, Sin, and Church Standards

John Dehlin [00:18:28] Is it fair to say you've maybe defined down what the criteria is for prophet? It's no longer God's mouthpiece on the earth, but instead it's somebody who brings wisdom and truth or light. And they may be deeply flawed too, and it doesn't. And that maybe Russell M. Nelson isn't the only prophet on the earth. There are other prophets, non Mormon prophets too.

Joe Tippetts [00:18:50] I wouldn't use the word downgraded because I think in the church we elevate leaders so much that anything is kind of a downgrade. If we kind of talk in these worshipful ways about people like they're like they're superstars or something, I want to just talk about them more like good men. They're giving a lot to do what they're doing and they make mistakes. I can sustain somebody who doesn't get it right every time. I can even sustain by sustain, meaning I can support. I can give my effort. I see it like it more than like at work. But, you know, in work you might have a boss you disagree with, but in the end that person gets to make a decision and you go with it.

John Dehlin [00:19:52] But do you call other people prophets who aren't, you know, in the Quorum of the twelve or the First Presidency,

Joe Tippetts [00:19:59] I would see many prophetic voices, male and female.

John Dehlin [00:20:04] Is that different than being a prophet to you?

Joe Tippetts [00:20:07] Yeah, because. Because I think anybody can share something prophetic can have an insight that's prophetic. And in terms of the people, I would raise my hand and Sustain and say, I might like, say, Brene Brown and I might think she has a lot of very good insights that I might think of as prophetic without calling her a prophetess necessarily. But I definitely would have the view that we're getting a little bit into semantics here that kind of define my loyalties. And I would want to show respect for what I'm in an act of faith, making commitments to do, while also recognizing. Inspiration or sources of truth all around us.

John Dehlin [00:21:23] I mean, what I was taught was that the Mormon prophet is God's one true mouthpiece on the earth for God's one true church.

Joe Tippetts [00:21:34] The Doctrine and Covenant says this. The only true and living church upon the face of the earth. And for that to be interpreted as the one true church. I know that would be a traditional way of seeing it. And I wouldn't want to try to argue about that question with somebody in my mind, that's far less important than how I treat people.

John Dehlin [00:21:59] Got it. As far as the other questions about baptism, what does it mean to you to repent? Do you feel that you have repented of your past transgressions? Have you committed a serious crime? Have you been in a homosexual relationship? Have you ever participated in abortion? The rest of the questions are pretty, you know, pretty reasonable.

Joe Tippetts [00:22:29] I think an area where I would say non traditional would be the concept of sin. I'm much less inclined now to see sin as this shameful thing to. I see sin as when we're hurting ourselves or other people.

Joe Tippetts [00:22:54] We could think of sin in terms of specific commandments, but behind those commandments, I believe is are you hurting yourself or are you hurting others? In that sense, we say we're all sinners, but then we don't talk about our specific sins.

Joe Tippetts [00:23:15] And I really believe we're all. We can all do things that hurt ourselves and others, but I'm much less inclined to want to sit and focus on feeling guilty. And for me, I think the joy of the gospel is more about, I think when you're wanting to.

Joe Tippetts [00:23:50] When you are feeling good about yourself and you're striving to treat others well. To me, that's a life that. Where sin just kind of gets pushed out. But when you're sad or dissatisfied with yourself or others, that's when behaviors are justified that are harmful. I bring this up because you brought up sinful.

John Dehlin [00:24:25] That's in the questions.

Joe Tippetts [00:24:26] Yeah, I just, you know, I'm striving to live a good life. And religious terminology, we call it sin

John Dehlin [00:24:37] or transgression in the question, actually.

Joe Tippetts [00:24:40] Well, Transgression is a different thing. We say Adam's transgression where he needed to transgress.

John Dehlin [00:24:47] I'm just saying the question says, do you feel that you have repented of your past transgressions? That's what the question says.

Joe Tippetts [00:24:51] Yes, and definitely I felt like having that desire to be a better person, to put away things, you know, in the context of the church, the Word of Wisdom is something I didn't keep for a long time. And in fact, when I hear people talking about drinking, I just kind of smile and think, oh, that is one thing I gave up because I enjoyed it. But for this commitment, I know in the context of the church, that's considered a sin. And so I don't do it.

John Dehlin [00:25:27] Four of the it basically asks if you're willing to live certain Gospel standards that it mentions the Law of Chastity, Law of tithing, Word of Wisdom, and the Sabbath day, I guess. I assume you agreed to live all those.

Joe Tippetts [00:25:43] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:25:44] Would you. You may or may not want to answer this, but would you say that your understanding of those four laws are orthoprax or unorthoprax? In other words, if you agree to pay tithing, is your understanding of tithing different than the average Orthodox member? Is your understanding of the Word of Wisdom now different than the average? And if so, are you willing to talk about how it is different versus not? Or would you rather not talk about that?

Joe Tippetts [00:26:18] Let me think. I'll talk about some.

John Dehlin [00:26:20] So let's do chastity.

Joe Tippetts [00:26:21] Yeah, I think the When I was a teenager, my dad told me about his mission president who actually was the guy that sealed us. And Ned Winder. He's a name a lot of people around here will know with Winder Dairy. But he was my dad's mission president in Florida, and he seemed to have a really healthy approach to talking about masturbation with missionaries. For him, it was just kind of this thing that, hey, guys, that's nice, but you ought to stop and if you're having trouble with it, you know, do better. It wasn't that sense of that would be kind of more how I feel when I face my kids. Like I was just telling my

John Dehlin [00:27:14] I

Joe Tippetts [00:27:14] don't want to get too irreverent. I'll tell you something after. But with my kids, I don't. And that's how my dad kind of was with us. And the whole shame thing I'm not big on, I wouldn't see that as me not agreeing to live those standards. It would just be a different approach I think when something becomes forbidden, people want it more. But when something is acknowledged that hey, yeah, you're human, you have these body parts, such and such feels good, you know, keep it in check, then it's not forbidden.

John Dehlin [00:28:03] But just as far as fidelity to your wife.

Joe Tippetts [00:28:06] Yeah, fidelity to my wife, you could break that up into many parts. As far as my marriage and fidelity to my wife, absolute.

John Dehlin [00:28:14] And then what people? Everyone wants to know if you pay tithing.

Joe Tippetts [00:28:17] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:28:18] And if you interpret that different than an orthodox member would.

Joe Tippetts [00:28:22] Maybe so. I just don't know how everybody interprets it. I grew up in a home where you paid on gross.

John Dehlin [00:28:29] There's two options to do it in an orthodox way.

Joe Tippetts [00:28:32] Three at least.

John Dehlin [00:28:33] Well, there's pay on your net or pay on your gross. Yeah, people who pay on their gross are kind of more hardcore. Probably the average person pays on their net. What's the third way that's orthodox? I'm curious.

Joe Tippetts [00:28:44] Well, the scriptures say your increase. And so if you're a business, that's Rock Waterman.

John Dehlin [00:28:49] That's not orthodoxy, is it? Or is

Joe Tippetts [00:28:56] doesn't say, in my marriage, my wife and I right now are in a different place on that desire. And so when I left the church, I didn't want my money going to the church. And so it was awkward for my wife to go into the tithing settlement.

Joe Tippetts [00:29:16] And I was making more money than her. And so the portion of her, the income she was making, she was paying tithing on, but not on my income. And she was a full tithe payer. But now that, now that I'm back and I want to pay and she has some misgivings about it. And so I don't pay on my gross.

Joe Tippetts [00:29:44] But I declared myself as a full tithe payer because the discussion with my bishop was when I left, Mindy paid a lot less tithing because I didn't want to. And, and if she's not ready to now, then we need to have a middle ground. And even if that doesn't meet some mathematical equation, the spirit of it is I'm trying to.

Joe Tippetts [00:30:14] In a marriage where two people get to decide, not one, I'm trying to pay an amount that represents, I guess, a compromise. And I consider that a full tithe. And if down the road, if my wife feels differently, we'll probably still have some.

Joe Tippetts [00:30:44] We probably won't think of it in the way we did 15 years ago. And I think couples have that right. A bishop in tithing settlement asks you, are you a full tithe payer? And it's up to you to answer yes or no.

Joe Tippetts [00:30:59] And I feel like anybody who can answer yes in a way that feels honest to them, then that's a legitimate yes and there's no further discussion.

John Dehlin [00:31:13] Have your views on the word of wisdom changed at all in terms of how you live it now versus back when you were Orthodox? If you want to talk about it,

Joe Tippetts [00:31:22] I live the word of wisdom back when I was Orthodox.

John Dehlin [00:31:25] I mean, some read the word of wisdom and say it allows drinks of mild barley, therefore they can drink beer. And it doesn't prohibit wine, but only strong spirits.

Joe Tippetts [00:31:34] The modern interpretation of it would be kind of the list.

John Dehlin [00:31:37] No alcohol at all, no coffee, no tea.

Joe Tippetts [00:31:40] I feel like the broader interpretation. I live it according to kind of the strict interpretation. But the broader interpretation is, you know, let's take care of our bodies, let's put good stuff into it. And for me, that's the more valuable part of the word of wisdom, the little list of stuff that we don't take. That's pretty easy for me to.

John Dehlin [00:32:04] Coffee and tea. Are you okay giving up? Okay. Okay. So let's talk about some of the other practical things. Someone asked, do you ever feel dishonest? Nuancing the questions.

Handling Discomfort and Disagreement at Church

Joe Tippetts [00:32:21] Dishonest isn't the word. I do feel kind of inner. I don't know. I guess inner conflict or. But I know somebody's going to jump on that. And like, somebody after the last interview is like, this guy is torn inside. He's. And there's a difference between stress and inner conflict, where things don't match up for you versus I think it's healthy to have, you know, This comes up in Sunday school a lot or elders quorum. Do we want to go there yet, or is that after this?

John Dehlin [00:33:09] I mean, because this is a good

Joe Tippetts [00:33:10] situation where it comes up where somebody will make a statement.

John Dehlin [00:33:15] I think they mean in your interviews, in your baptism interview. If you were to interview for the temple recommend, you know, I think that's

Joe Tippetts [00:33:23] the first in terms of the interviews. I am happy to explain my answers. Sometimes it's just kind of yes, no, yes, no type of answers with my bishop. He wasn't one that was inclined to dig, but I wanted to feel honest, and so I was the one that was explaining myself fully. I haven't interviewed with my stake president yet because to get baptized, you don't need to. And so. But I don't feel conflict about it, and I don't feel fear about whether I'll pass. Now, right before I got baptized, I wondered a little, but I'm happy to explain myself further now.

John Dehlin [00:34:19] That's great.

Joe Tippetts [00:34:20] I'm not trying to pull the wool over a leader's eyes.

John Dehlin [00:34:22] No, that makes sense. Okay. People want to know how you deal with either incorrect things that are said in church or hurtful things that are said in church. So let's take incorrect things. Let's say somebody says, well, we all know that the only reason the church practiced polygamy was because there were too many women and not enough men and blah, blah, blah. Let's say someone says something like that.

Joe Tippetts [00:34:49] Something. A historical understanding. Or that's false.

John Dehlin [00:34:52] That's actually objectively false. Or. Or milk stripping.

Joe Tippetts [00:34:55] Joseph never practiced polygamy or something like that.

John Dehlin [00:34:58] Yeah. Or, you know the milk stripping story with Thomas Marsh and he just left because he was offended about. What do you do when somebody says something that's just factually wrong? Well, and when I say, what do you do? There's two things. There's. Do you correct them or say anything? And then the second is how do you deal with the emotional distress of, like, hearing something said that's actually false or untrue and just staying quiet about it? I think either one could be distressing.

Joe Tippetts [00:35:29] Yeah. Especially the first couple of months. I would notice it more, and I notice it when people say things, and I can see that it's widely understood in a certain way and. But maybe there's some church essay buried somewhere that most people haven't read where it would give a different understanding. I don't.

Joe Tippetts [00:36:02] My goal isn't to. And my impulse isn't to want to try to be. Try to correct things. Our stories, they're our mythology. They are our stories, and that's how they're understood. In many cases. If I were to try to be that guy who just raised my hand every time I thought something was wrong, the church would never work.

Joe Tippetts [00:36:38] And if I was that guy with anybody, if I'm in a relationship, if I'm at work and I felt the need to point out somebody submitted their code and I would have done it a different way or maybe a better way.

Joe Tippetts [00:36:54] Sometimes that's just not the thing you choose to focus on because the relationship is more important. And so that's how I would characterize it in most situations. Sometimes I go away feeling a little. Maybe annoyed. But if you try to go back to the church and you think you're going to be the corrector in chief, you're going to hate the church and leave it pretty quick. And I want to flip this around slightly so you've been Leading Mormon stories for years.

John Dehlin [00:37:44] You can't ask me questions, then I'll

Joe Tippetts [00:37:47] just describe a scenario.

John Dehlin [00:37:48] I'm totally kidding. You can ask me questions.

Joe Tippetts [00:37:51] Yeah. So you have thousands of people and many have left the church. They're sick of authority, they're sick of dogma, they're sick of whatever. But there's not a shared new understanding. Everybody's in a lot of different places. And so you might say something about, let's say, transgender people, and you might get it wrong.

Joe Tippetts [00:38:18] You might use the wrong word. And your goal is not to offend you. You sincerely are trying to be respectful, but you get something wrong. I'm sure you've had times where you get a thousand comments blasting you for doing something wrong.

Joe Tippetts [00:38:36] And I don't know, maybe some of that's healthy. But in terms of having a united organization and a ward, I don't. I don't see, especially in a group setting, I kind of like that scripture comes to mind about, if you have a problem with somebody, go to them in person after and share that in a face to face way.

Joe Tippetts [00:39:03] When you try to correct people in front of a group, instead of doing anything positive, all you do is get people to dig their heels in and feel defensive.

John Dehlin [00:39:16] Yeah, but so are you saying you do go to people if they make a misstatement afterwards in private and talk to them?

Joe Tippetts [00:39:24] I would say maybe two or three times. I don't do it in the spirit of, you were wrong, I'm correcting you. It's more in the spirit of, hey, I see this differently. Can we have a little conversation about it? And usually we kind of come to a meeting of minds, you know, it's not a conflict type situation. Did I answer that?

John Dehlin [00:39:48] Yeah. So do you ever speak up and make comments in church, Sunday school, or priesthood to try and, you know, be progressive or advocate for a group? If somebody said something bad about trans people or LGB people or, you know,

Joe Tippetts [00:40:19] are those separate now? That's the second time I've heard LGB and trans separate.

John Dehlin [00:40:24] That's a great question.

Joe Tippetts [00:40:25] Tangent.

John Dehlin [00:40:25] My dear friend Kimberly Anderson is online and I love to speak about trans people whenever I can because sometimes they're. They're a little bit invisible. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Tippetts [00:40:37] Sorry.

John Dehlin [00:40:37] Aside, gender orientation is different than sexual orientation.

Joe Tippetts [00:40:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:40] Being gay or lesbian or bisexual is a totally different question than what gender do you identify with personally?

Joe Tippetts [00:40:47] Okay. Jen Blair is a lot of fun and she's good at that.

John Dehlin [00:40:51] Yeah, yeah. And a lot of times we just lump them all in, even when we're not Talking about, you know, gender identity specifically. You know, we'll just munge them all in as if they're all the same. And usually we should be thoughtful about when we use the acronym or refer to a certain group of people, that we're not clumping them all together when really we're meaning something more specific. That's all.

Joe Tippetts [00:41:19] It's not a big deal. Sorry, I was just curious. I kind of distracted from your question though. What was your question again?

John Dehlin [00:41:27] Do you ever, like, can you imagine, have you ever had to speak up?

Joe Tippetts [00:41:32] Oh, yes.

John Dehlin [00:41:33] Or can you ever imagine a scenario where you'd speak up, particularly if a marginalized group is being spoken about in an unhealthy way?

Joe Tippetts [00:41:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:42] Have you ever spoken up or would you?

Joe Tippetts [00:41:45] Yeah. And there was a time in our elders quorum where we were talking about the proclamation on the family and a comment was made that was kind of emphasizing. It was something about gay marriage. And there was a comment that kind of felt kind of mean spirited. I don't think it was given in that sense.

Joe Tippetts [00:42:18] But sometimes people say things and they're just used to being able to say it without anybody pushing back. And so they don't feel like they're being mean spirited. But it felt that way to me and I raised my hand and I think part of the point that was being made was that the church will never move on this issue because it's pretty central to the doctrine.

Joe Tippetts [00:42:43] And I raised my hand and said, I think the church has already moved massively on this issue. Because if I think about the way I commented on how Elder Packer had talked about punching the gay companion if he tries to kiss you or something, and you know, back in the 80s, the rhetoric, or from the miracle of forgiveness rhetoric to today, if you look@mormonandgay.org, you'll see examples of returned missionaries that identify as lesbian. There was a girl, I believe she identified as a lesbian, but she was trying to make the church work. But instead of saying

John Dehlin [00:43:37] that,

Joe Tippetts [00:43:39] you know, she was sure she could do it in the article, it was. She was expressing kind of, you know, I'm going to try to make this work. I don't know if I can. And I thought, wow, that is.

Joe Tippetts [00:43:51] That is a lot different than they were talking even two years ago. A friend of mine, I haven't asked him, so I won't mention his name, but he's highlighted on there too. He's in a marriage, he identifies as gay or same. You know, in the church they use that term.

Joe Tippetts [00:44:12] What is it same sex attracted or whatever, but he's also married to a woman with kids. And for him it's been working. And he loves the church. And so I see this progression where the rhetoric just changes slowly. And I was trying to. My point in the lesson was not to try to say, and someday the church is going to change their doctrine and gay people will get sealed in the temples. I'm not trying to say that. But my point was, no matter what our doctrine is, we can be loving.

Joe Tippetts [00:44:57] And not just in the sense of, yes, I love everybody because I'm a good person and I have Christ in my heart. I'm talking about, you know, can you interact with people? Can you invite them into your lives, into your home? Are you afraid to have your kids around them?

Joe Tippetts [00:45:21] You know, what does it mean to be loving, even if somebody doesn't want to live a lifestyle that our church teaches? So that's an example of where I very much felt the desire to share a perspective that I don't think conflicts with the teachings of my church. But in a culture where we constantly re. Emphasize that being gay or acting on being gay is a sin, sometimes there's. When people talk about it, it's kind of in a hostile way, not a loving way.

John Dehlin [00:45:56] So just to maybe make it more practical, let's just say somebody says, you know, well, we all know that gays are the scourge of society and that they're.

Joe Tippetts [00:46:11] Why I'd raise my hand on something like that in a heartbeat.

John Dehlin [00:46:14] Okay.

Joe Tippetts [00:46:14] Or if they said, I would say not we all.

John Dehlin [00:46:18] Okay. Or if they said like, well, we all know that blacks were less valued than pre existence and that's why, you know, they got dark skin color, would you speak up on that?

Joe Tippetts [00:46:27] Definitely.

John Dehlin [00:46:28] Okay. Or if they said, you know, feminists are. Feminists are enemies to the church.

Joe Tippetts [00:46:33] I'm married to one.

John Dehlin [00:46:36] Okay, but have you had, have you had the need to speak up so far since you've been rebaptized in a way that would make orthodox members feel uncomfortable? Or is it just the need not arisen?

Joe Tippetts [00:46:51] It's pretty uncommon for somebody to say things with the tone you just described.

John Dehlin [00:46:59] Yeah.

Joe Tippetts [00:47:00] And so I wouldn't. If somebody just says something that I don't fully agree with, I wouldn't want to call them out on it. But if somebody said something that felt like it was hurtful, and whether it's a church teaching now or not, if just I feel like that's kind of a mean spirited thing to say, I would want to try to stand up For a perspective of being kinder.

John Dehlin [00:47:34] And have you had to do that yet?

Joe Tippetts [00:47:36] There was the case I brought up in terms of. In front of a group, that is the only one I remember. The other times that come up, like when we started talking about the Book of Mormon, people were kind of expressing.

Joe Tippetts [00:47:57] The teacher was inviting us to express why we would. Why we're so excited to study the Book of Mormon this year. And so more common with me is I like to participate in class, but my comments will often be kind of non.

Joe Tippetts [00:48:16] Oh, here's a better one. The teacher in Elders Quorum, we were talking about Elder Bednar's talk about cheetahs and topis, these kind of antler like animals. And the idea was that the cheetahs were spiritual danger and the Topis were trying to protect themselves. And.

Joe Tippetts [00:48:39] My comments on it in the talk, Elder Bednar invited people to think about the cheetahs and the topis and other ways you can approach that. And my first thought was, well, God created cheetahs and topis and. And I kind of shared a view.

Joe Tippetts [00:48:58] When the teacher asked about what we thought, that was totally the opposite direction of where I think he was planning to go with it in terms of, yeah, here are all the examples of the bad cheetahs in our lives, the dangers we have to watch out for.

Joe Tippetts [00:49:17] And I was thinking of like the lion laying down with the lamb and the cheetahs and the topis were both created by God and is the grass that the topis eat. The topis are a predator to the grass.

John Dehlin [00:49:32] And

Joe Tippetts [00:49:35] so I think it was. Sometimes I just don't think along the same lines that I think that's more common. Not that I'm trying to stand up against what somebody's saying. It's more common that my comment will just be maybe coming from a different direction or, you know, instead of saying how excited I am to read the Book of Mormon, making the comment of I'm a little apprehensive, how am I facing this? I haven't dug into the Book of Mormon for quite a few years.

Joe Tippetts [00:50:16] And there's some good reasons for that. You know, Lamanites aren't today, aren't what Lamanites were 20 years ago. And so there's some times where I think I create discomfort maybe a little. At the same time, I get a lot of nice comments where people thank me for having a little bit different perspective. And overall it's been positive. But there have been a few times where I walk out feeling like I'm kind of an Outsider trying to fit in.

John Dehlin [00:51:01] And how do you manage that distress? I mean, it can be feeling different. It can be feeling like maybe sometimes you feel like you have to muzzle yourself or stay quiet.

Joe Tippetts [00:51:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:16] You know, or maybe it could be just uncomfortable things said. But how do you manage emotionally? Either the boredom or the silly things said or the repetitiveness. There are all sorts of things that some of us, if we try to go back to Sunday school, we'll just have a really hard time sitting through. How do you manage those emotions?

What Makes Church Attendance Positive

Joe Tippetts [00:51:35] If church is only about ideas and sitting in a class, then that's a small part of the experience. For me, the more engaging part of the experience is, for example, helping with a blood drive. Our stake blood drive was something I was asked to do. I love trying to magnify a calling. And for me, that's where.

Joe Tippetts [00:52:10] Or coordinating some service and just helping people and doing things together where we're not sitting there talking about exactly how we see Joseph Smith. We're just doing something positive together and building those relationships. And that's where I get a lot more positive benefit. I think if I just sat in church and only focused on what was taught and sat there and tried to make it all work out, you know, it won't always, but that's. To me, that's the less important things. The things we talk about are supposed to lead to how we live and you could say maybe how we think, too. And I think there's a lot of positive things that we try to encourage each other to do in the church.

Joe Tippetts [00:53:02] One of the things I really enjoy is I have a family that I've known the whole time I've lived here. And I can't be a formal minister yet in the quorum because I don't have the priesthood. And so I called them up and asked if I could be their fake minister and, you know, just go over to their house.

Joe Tippetts [00:53:23] And the other night, I get this text message from the wife giving a status update on the husband who was having a health situation. And I just thought, you don't have to have a formal calling. You don't have to have a formal priesthood. You don't have to be a man to love other people.

Joe Tippetts [00:53:50] And so I guess the essence of what makes church positive for me is you're put together every week and you rub shoulders and you agree to do little responsibilities here and there and that loving other people, that's the whole. For me, that's kind of the essence.

John Dehlin [00:54:13] So, yeah. So you. You're not as concerned. Do you always Go to Sunday school?

Joe Tippetts [00:54:19] Yeah, I go every week.

John Dehlin [00:54:21] You go every week?

Joe Tippetts [00:54:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:22] Okay.

Joe Tippetts [00:54:23] Yeah, I'm a. I want to be a fully committed. You know, I. I don't. I want to be a fully committed member. I know I'm not this orthodoxy orthopraxy practice and kind of ideas. Maybe my ideas don't all match up, but I definitely want my practice to be something that when people think of me, they think of somebody who's caring and loving and who makes them feel the spirit of why we're there. So

John Dehlin [00:55:03] what about temple attendance? Do you want to go back to the temple? Are you comfortable going back to the temple and do you want to try and attend the temple?

Joe Tippetts [00:55:15] Yeah, yeah, I'll try to go probably monthly. Paxton, that guy I was telling you about, he was rebaptized a week before me. And we're hoping we can go to the temple together at some point in April, if that.

Joe Tippetts [00:55:34] If that works. If I'm able to do that. I get the evolution of the temple. I know what has happened in the past there and even before I went there. When you leave the church, you have no qualms about learning a whole lot about it, whereas when you're in the church, you feel like it's very discouraged to try to learn anything about it outside of what you might learn while you're inside or what you might learn from a book, from Deseret book that talks in very high level terms.

Joe Tippetts [00:56:12] And so I don't want to try to describe that. Like I'm encouraging people to do something they feel isn't the right thing to do. But going back and seeing it in a much different way and understanding maybe some things about the origin of it, I feel like that's part of what it means for me to be a Latter Day Saint. And I want to fully be a Latter Day Saint in the best sense of the word.

John Dehlin [00:56:47] Do you ever get the sense that your bishop is nervous about you there? That he might be worried you're a wolf in sheep's clothing or that he has to kind of monitor your contributions? So you don't like, hurt the flock, do you?

Joe Tippetts [00:57:00] I love my bishop.

John Dehlin [00:57:02] Yeah, I know, but do you think he's concerned or.

Joe Tippetts [00:57:04] I think wary.

John Dehlin [00:57:06] Wary of you?

Joe Tippetts [00:57:07] He was just helping me with something recently and I asked him, you know, because sometimes I walk out of Sunday school or elders quorum wondering if I've offended somebody with my comments and wondering if he's gotten feedback. And I don't know. And I don't worry too much about That I just feel like we have a relationship where if he feels I'm crossing a line, I think he would be comfortable telling me. And I'm open to that feedback and I would want to act on it.

John Dehlin [00:57:50] But so far you haven't felt that from him.

Joe Tippetts [00:57:53] So far, I haven't had anybody in leadership pull me aside and tell me to stop doing something. Quite the contrary. I've had multiple people pull me aside and express very positive things about things I might have said or overall, very positive.

Challenges of Regular Church Attendance

John Dehlin [00:58:22] Is there anything that's been difficult for you about attending church regularly?

Joe Tippetts [00:58:27] I look forward to Sunday. If there's anything that's been difficult, it's been trying to match up. When I try too hard to make everything line up in terms of. Doctrine, if somebody says, for example, they know something's true, it'll get me thinking.

Joe Tippetts [00:58:56] And sometimes I. In general, I don't feel a strong impulse to need to know it's true. But there's a fear in me that wonders if I'm supposed to. To be considered a good member. And I don't know how much of that is external versus internal.

Joe Tippetts [00:59:17] And so I just kind of go with it. And the more I go. It's been nine months now, the feedback is so positive. A lot of it, I wonder is just. I think it's my internal fears. We can talk about what those members of the church do. And we talk in that general term like they a stereotype. And when you picture that stereotype, it's this person that's super certain about everything and aggressive about getting other people to believe like them and maybe a little judgmental and whatever.

Joe Tippetts [01:00:04] But then when you try to apply that to specific people, it doesn't match up so well. You know, you could talk about those bishops who get it wrong or leadership roulette. And you might have heard an interview where one person had that case.

Joe Tippetts [01:00:24] But then I look back at all my own bishops and they've all been just beautiful men trying really hard to do the best they can. So I think separating that stereotype of a Mormon versus actually. Applying that to real people, they're very different things. And I don't think most members of the church fit the stereotype, even though you might.

Joe Tippetts [01:01:05] Do I fit the stereotype? Non traditional Joe? I think if you sit down and talk one on one with most people, they have a lot of ways they don't fit the stereotype. But they're very good members, right?

Callings, Testimony, and Hymns as a Doubter

Part 3 of 3 · Ep. 1243

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Sam, Do you bear your testimony? Have you borne your testimony on fast testimony meeting?

Joe Tippetts [00:00:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:00:36] And what are the. You know. Do you say, I know this church is true?

Joe Tippetts [00:00:43] No, not at this point. I could say, I know I love this church and I know it's good, but I don't use the phrase I know this church is true. I'm very inclined to focus on I believe in God, I believe God's real. I believe God's loved me. Those three things in my heart, I say, I know that, but I'm happy to change that word no to. To believe, because no is a loaded word. So I believe that last time I bore my testimony, it was that I didn't know the church was true, but that I knew it was capable of a lot of good. And I think the church is like people that can be good or bad or both.

John Dehlin [00:01:44] And you didn't have people coming up to you expressing concern that you didn't know?

Joe Tippetts [00:01:49] No. I had two people come up to me and said, thank you. Thank you. I feel valid. I didn't think you could hold that view and be a valid member. And so I think sometimes it's easier for me to say certain things since I was out for a while.

Joe Tippetts [00:02:11] Whereas if you've been in the whole time and you're trying to uphold this image that you know it's true because you've been saying it since you were three, it might be harder to say things you really feel without fearing that people will be worried about you or something. Whereas for me, it's like, oh, he came back.

Joe Tippetts [00:02:35] We're just glad he's here. So the expectations are a little lower, maybe, but I don't know how often I'll bear my testimony. I'm a person that likes to talk in church and participate in the lessons and read the lessons. Every week.

Joe Tippetts [00:02:57] In Elders Quorum, we do conference talks, and I try to read them and listen to them. And the apps we have now are pretty cool for studying the gospel, that's for sure.

John Dehlin [00:03:09] Are there callings you would not accept that you're aware of, like ward mission leader or, you know, something like that?

Joe Tippetts [00:03:18] No, I don't see Kinney calling. I definitely. For example, if.

John Dehlin [00:03:25] Do you have a calling now?

Joe Tippetts [00:03:26] Yeah, I'm the quorum service coordinator, and I'm the ward technology coordinator. And so the technology thing, it's like help people plug their phone into the TV or whatever, and there's not much to do there. But the service coordinator has been really fun. That's right up my alley. But if I were called to something else, I would be happy to try to do it as best I can, and I would do it in my way.

Joe Tippetts [00:03:59] If I'm a ward missionary or something, you know, I'm probably going to be pretty good at getting out and meeting people and building friendships within the neighborhood. And maybe some of those people would want to start coming to church and go, and maybe a lot of them, most of them wouldn't. But instead of being that missionary that shows up to their house every two years and says, you know, hi, we're from the church. Now I'm stereotyping again, aren't I?

Joe Tippetts [00:04:34] And just kind of, if they're interested, you want to pursue it, and if they're not, you just disappear for another two years. I would love to break that pattern and be the guy that. That wants to have a relationship with people. You know, if they don't want to join the church, who cares if they want to? Let's be part of the neighborhood.

Joe Tippetts [00:05:04] Let's do things together. Let's find a basis. Let's find excuses for interacting, not so that I can get you to join the church, but just so we can be friends. And that would be fun to me.

John Dehlin [00:05:18] Some people get annoyed by certain hymns these days, like Praise to the man or Follow the Prophet. Are there certain hymns you wouldn't sing because you kind of. They rubbed you the wrong way, or are you kind of back singing all the hymns?

Joe Tippetts [00:05:30] It's like there are hymns where the words. Like, there's a pattern in some of the hymns. Like, the first three verses are all warm and fuzzy, and then the fourth verse is closing the deal with some. You know, now that you feel good, here's the big commitment that you're gonna agree with, or. So there are some hymns where the words resonate more or less with me, but I think of it kind of like music. It's like, go back to your teenage music. And there are some songs that are expressing values that you don't have. But you love the song because you were 15 and loved it.

John Dehlin [00:06:08] Like dirty deeds done dirt cheap.

Joe Tippetts [00:06:09] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:06:10] Done dirt cheap. We've got an ACDC fan here on Mormon Stories podcast, Everybody.

Joe Tippetts [00:06:18] Yes. And sometimes the music isn't about the words. It's about just singing together with people, and that's uplifting in its own way, whether the words are exactly what you want or not.

Temple Ordinances and Literal Mormon Doctrine

John Dehlin [00:06:34] Somebody asked, if you were to go to the temple, would you believe that you're actually doing ordinances for dead people that would allow them to get to heaven?

Joe Tippetts [00:06:45] I wouldn't care. I would believe that by going, I want to do my own names. Family history is another thing I would love to get more involved with. And I'm not concerned about whether. Because they've already had this thing where because of technology evolving over time, there are names that have been done 50 times or whatever.

Joe Tippetts [00:07:11] And so I'm less concerned about how that works and more concerned about me saying, here's this blue card with, you know, John Tippetts. Who is this person? He matters. He's related to me. I think connecting with your past is.

Joe Tippetts [00:07:40] Is powerful on a lot of levels. And I think that's why so many people like to do it. And to be able to go to a temple and carry that name and kind of have that person in your heart with as little or as much information you know about them and to be hoping good things for them. I really believe there's something after this life. I wouldn't be concerned about trying to describe it very particularly, but maybe it's much more of just a hope.

Joe Tippetts [00:08:07] But if there's something. I think there's something ennobling about just caring about somebody who came before. And that would be kind of the sense I would be doing it in.

John Dehlin [00:08:20] And then what do you do with the literal Mormon belief that you have to have these Mormon ordinances to make it to the highest degree of whatever and all that ordinance stuff?

Joe Tippetts [00:08:32] I see the ordinances as a way to show our commitment, show my commitment to God, to this organization, this church and to the community. Because a lot of times you do ordinances together with people. It's something you, you know, you can go to the temple on your own and do it, but a lot of times it's ward temple night or, or you're going with your wife or some family members or what. It's a social type of activity. And I just, I really don't feel a lot of concern about whether it's the one way to get to God. I think it's a beautiful way to think about rising.

Joe Tippetts [00:09:21] And when people, women, think about the past of the temple and if it was distasteful to them because of the way the doctrines have changed, I can understand that too. And I would not want to oppose something that I think I can be uplifted by onto other people if it's distasteful to them.

John Dehlin [00:09:49] There's a. And this is just me trying to hit something really head on. We're kind of talking around maybe a more central idea, which is that the church has its doctrine and its theology And I think we could try to get postmodern about the fact that words can mean different things and people all bring their own perspectives. But I think reasonable people could agree that there's a certain set of tenets that constitute kind of core Mormon doctrine.

John Dehlin [00:10:20] And I just gave you one. That the church teaches that it is the one true church, that it has exclusive priesthood authority, that its baptisms count in the eyes of God in a way that no one else's baptisms do, and that you need its authority based baptism to get into heaven.

John Dehlin [00:10:42] So when I ask you what do you think about that, what you do is you respond saying how you view baptism is. But you don't actually address the church's sort of official theological position per se.

Joe Tippetts [00:10:55] I don't feel like I'm required to hold it in exactly the same way Bruce R. McConkie might have held it. Because we don't sell Bruce R. McConkie. We don't sell Mormon doctrine and Deseret book anymore. We don't sell doctrines of salvation and deseret book anymore. I don't think.

John Dehlin [00:11:14] But that's skirting it a little bit

Joe Tippetts [00:11:16] because I think, oh, ask it more directly then I want to answer.

John Dehlin [00:11:18] I think if everybody every. Let's just say that. And I think this is even church doctrine, that the people who determine doctrine are the first presidency of the quorum of the 12. And yeah, we could, you know, they might see the Adam God theory differently or they may even see polygamy differently. But I think every single one of them would say that you can't get to heaven without a baptism by proper authority.

Joe Tippetts [00:11:46] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:11:48] And meaning either under Jesus time or under, like Alma the Younger's time or under this modern church's time. And any other baptisms won't get you in heaven, I think. So this isn't just like, oh, that's Bruce McConkie's opinion. I think every prophet and apostle from now back to 1830 would all agree on that point. Now, maybe I'm wrong, but I think that would be the case. So what do you do? I know that you've got your own sort of like interpretation of the symbols and the ordinances and the teachings, but so many times you're sort of just choosing to ignore or say it's not important to you what is really core official accepted Mormon doctrine or theology. And I'm just wondering like how you do that.

Joe Tippetts [00:12:49] It just doesn't bother me. I don't feel the need to. I feel like I can't. A common theme like when you're in seminary, if you listen to Michael McClane or some of that Mormon pop type music in the 80s and 90s, remember that song from Celebrating the Light? Hold on, the Light Will Come. And it was like this pleading of the kid who doesn't have that testimony that other people around them are saying that they have and that scriptures and the teachers and the church is promising that they can have and that they should have.

Joe Tippetts [00:13:40] And so there's this sense of urgency, like, what's wrong with me? I need to find out for myself that the church is true or whatever. And so it becomes this big thing that people feel really worried about. And before I left the church, I was very much in that mode of starting right with God. Just, I need to know you're real.

Joe Tippetts [00:14:12] And it's really urgent because if you're not real and this isn't real, then I can't keep doing this. And. When I came back, the sense that I felt just that central testimony that I believe in God that just transcends everything by far in my mind. And I don't feel this sense that, oh, how many months are going to go by before I know the Book of Mormon is true again, in the sense that most people would be saying it. I don't feel that urgency. And if that means that I'm looked over for being able to get the priesthood again, or if that means that I would never have an important calling again because I can't be trusted with the orthodoxy, I don't care one bit about that.

Joe Tippetts [00:15:11] For me, the heart of what I feel and the heart of the gospel of Jesus Christ is God is love. And so a lot of people want me to feel very anxious that I don't match up with the mold. And I don't feel one bit. Well, maybe one bit, but not much at all by far. I'm a lot more concerned about how I interact with fellow members than whether I have a cool calling where I'm Mr. President or whatever.

Joe Tippetts [00:15:46] I could be the ward toilet cleaner for the rest of my life and I could be very happy in this church. And if the fact that I don't have what others might see as a gift. You know, the scriptures talk about different gifts and some have the gift of knowledge and testimony and prophecy and whatever. Those aren't my gifts. My gift is I can connect with people. I love people, I care about people, and that's my gift. And I'm not going to worry if I come to know I'm studying the scriptures this year. I'll Read the whole Book of Mormon. I'll study it. I'll read some of the commentary on it.

Joe Tippetts [00:16:34] But in my heart, I don't feel driven to beg God to tell me to know it's true, because I know he's true. And I. I don't. What does that mean? If I say I know it's true, I make fellow members feel like I'm maybe on the inside of this circle of people who know, who are mature in the gospel.

Joe Tippetts [00:17:00] I don't care how I appear in that sense of wanting others to think I'm spiritually mature. I think, for me, I want others to feel loved when they're around me. And that's way more important than whether they think I'm on my way up the ladder or something. I just don't care one bit about that.

John Dehlin [00:17:23] Yeah, I think there's a lot of beauty to this. I talked to Carolyn Pearson today, and she basically says God is love, and that's all she cares about, is just kindness and love. And. And that's the gospel to her. And I resonate with that. Kindness, I think, is really all that one of the only things that really matters. I mean, we are taught that truth matters.

John Dehlin [00:17:48] And I think other than the fact that we were all. And I was talking to my friend Tyler Alden about this the other day, it's sort of like we were all set up with this false binary. The church is either true or false. And like I used to say when I did the Stale DS website, like, is a ham sandwich true or false? It's like, what is true and false? Like, you can't.

John Dehlin [00:18:10] Organizations or like, ideas, you know, and that's sort of getting really postmodern. But what I'm kind of getting at is I can see that point of view, but we've all been kind of set up with this idea that it is true or false. And we come by it honestly because that's kind of what they teach us. And so. So many of us decided, well, if it's true or false, it's false, so I'm out of here, right?

Joe Tippetts [00:18:33] Yeah.

Staying to Change the Church From Within

John Dehlin [00:18:34] But in that process, we've all made so much noise that the church is changing and changing and changing, and they're shortening the time, and they're being better to women, and they're, you know, being better to LGBT people in some ways, and they're being more transparent about their history and all these things, and they're. They're moving sort of in the same direction that Protestant Christianity is, which is just like, come if you want to. It's. We're one of many good options. And, you know, there's good everywhere. And, you know, you can have a metaphorical belief if it's not literal. Like, I mean, that's the direction the church seems to be going in.

John Dehlin [00:19:12] What I think, you know, as I'm trying just trying to really nail it down, of course you should follow God if he tells you to. And of course it's beautiful that you are just focusing on kindness and love and all the other theological and doctrinal stuff. It's just not important to you.

Joe Tippetts [00:19:28] Well, when I say it's not important, I'm not saying the doctrine and theology isn't important. I'm saying I don't feel it's important. I don't feel like I have to know it's true. Because that for me, took me away from God when I tried to kind of force that. And it made me hate God. And now that I believe in God again, and I felt that essence of what, for me, God is. I can be uplifted. And I can value a lot of teachings even if I don't see them as something I know is true. I mean, what does that do? If I talk with somebody who's not a member of the church? What am I leading with? I know my church is true, therefore yours is false. You should be like me. That seems weird.

John Dehlin [00:20:33] Okay, but here's what's. Here's what. And I'm not arguing with you. I think what you're doing is beautiful. And I wouldn't have brought you back to the.

Joe Tippetts [00:20:39] But, yeah, I see what you're describing, because I know that impulse to feel like you can be able to say, you know, X, Y and Z are true.

John Dehlin [00:20:47] It goes deeper. Let me just. And this isn't me arguing. This is just exploring. We're being philosophical for a second, because I think what you do is beautiful and I respect you, and I hope that there are tens of thousands of you throughout the church.

John Dehlin [00:21:01] But if you think about the church. So there are a lot of churches before our church was started, right? So we could have just all been one of those, or Joseph Smith could have just been one of those. But instead, Joseph Smith says he prayed to God to say which one of those is true. And he says that God told him none of those are true. This is the one true church, and that we should be in this one. And then Joseph Smith produces scripture, which he claims is from God, and then he creates all this doctrine and theology.

John Dehlin [00:21:32] And that all has a. That's the whole purpose, like the whole purpose is we have a prophet that talks to God. We are the one true church. This scripture is from God and we are the church. And so that's why this whole thing was created. That's why that was the whole purpose. It's kind of like the Pinewood Derby is to race Pinewood cars, the KKK is to discriminate against people of color and the Mormon Church was to believe and to follow a church that is supposed to be God's one true church with true scripture, blah, blah, blah. And you, you know, I think some are just trying to wrap their brains around the fact that you're not really engaging the church in the spirit of why it was created in the first place.

John Dehlin [00:22:20] Joseph didn't just go, hey, we need to be kind to people. So I'm going to start a church so that we're all kind to each other and let's just be kind. And God said be kind and let's be kind. No, no, no. Like it was not that. It was all these other legalistic, doctrinal, theological rules based kind of things. That was the deal. And it's just like if you go to Pinewood Derby, you race Pinewood Derby cars and if you go to the KKK, you burn crosses and you, you know, 100 years ago you lynch people. So what you're kind of doing is you're basically, you're saying, I'm going to go to the Pinewood Derby every week, but I'm never going to race a car.

John Dehlin [00:23:00] And I don't, you know, I don't, I don't even pay attention to the cars being raced. I just want to eat the cookies and talk to the people afterwards and be kind or okay, the KKK is lynching people and racist. I'm going to be a member of the kkk. And I know that's an extreme example and I'm not trying to say the church is that bad, but you're basically, it's a mindbender for some people because you really are engaging the church not in the spirit of either one, why it was created at its core or how it's being run or sold or taught by its top leadership.

John Dehlin [00:23:43] Now it's just about, the church is about so much more than just kindness and love. It's about all these legalistic, doctrinal, theological things. And so you really are, it seems like you really are doing that and you have that right to do it. You say God told you to and I have no reason not to believe you But I think that's for some people. It's a pretzel. It's a twister. It's just like you're not really doing Mormonism. You're doing kindness in Mormonism, but you're not really doing, some would say. And I'm not trying to insult you.

Joe Tippetts [00:24:11] Yeah, I'm smiling because you're right. But it's not a twist. I don't feel like a pretzel being twisted. Maybe as you were talking.

John Dehlin [00:24:21] No, you're just ignoring the pine rhythm and you're just talking to the people and drinking the punch, eating the cookies, the Kool Aid. And maybe you're watching, and maybe you're watching it, but you're not actually doing the main thing that people go there to do, which is be a member of the one true church and believe what the church teaches and, like, you know, follow it like it's, you know. I hope that makes sense.

Joe Tippetts [00:24:45] Well, the Pinewood Derby needs many people. They need dads who know how to make pinewood cars for their kids to win. I'm joking there, kind of.

John Dehlin [00:24:56] Again, it is your right to do this, and I respect it.

Joe Tippetts [00:24:59] Yeah. You need people challenging you to get the ribbons. I would say. I would challenge the notion because I keep hearing it over and over. There's this mindset, there's a mold of, if you're going to be a good Mormon, this is what it looks like. And if you aren't going to look like that, you're not a good Mormon. I would challenge that.

Joe Tippetts [00:25:23] I would challenge that. The essence, all these, what you're referring to as legalistic or the practices, the ordinances, you need to do it through this church or it's not valid. So if you were baptized in another church, you need to be baptized in our church because ours is the valid one. All that stuff, I see it as a means to an end, not the end.

Joe Tippetts [00:25:52] And in the end, the core central part, it says it in Moroni 7. It says it in 1 Corinthians 13. So I don't think I'm doctrinally straying here to say we do all these things to bring each other together.

Joe Tippetts [00:26:14] We use a lot of names for God. We don't call God obedience with a capital O. We don't call God virtue with a capital V. We call God love and whatever we've done or people can. When I hear the idea of building the kingdom, which.

Joe Tippetts [00:26:40] Building the kingdom of God, what does that mean? Does it mean creating more wards and getting enough Melchizedek priesthood holders to turn a branch into a ward and make wards and stakes and, you know, that's one way of looking or having more chapels or to me, building the kingdom of God is being Christlike. God is love.

Joe Tippetts [00:27:07] And I feel like when people get together at church and have all these excuses to interact with each other, oh, I'm the such and such first counselor, or I'm the coordinator of such and such, they're all just excuses for people to get together, interact with each other, interact with each other and do something positive.

Joe Tippetts [00:27:34] And I just think we have this mold that people keep wanting to use it on me and tell me, you don't fit this mold, you're not doing it right. And to me, that feels like the law, the law of Moses. Like, here's the law. It's spelled out in these, you know, on all these scrolls, here's the law, or on these stone tablets. And Christ came and said, I fulfilled the law and the Spirit is what gives life.

Joe Tippetts [00:28:12] And I just totally, 100% reject the notion that I or you or whoever can't be a good Latter Day Saint if we don't fit a certain mold. Now, there are things that I'm agreeing to. Some I'm taking on faith, some I'm doing not because my heart necessarily or my mind thinks that's a requirement for me to be a good person, but because I'm being part of this organization and I'm going to be a team player. And so I'm going to cooperate. But, you know, it's like my wife, she grew up as.

Joe Tippetts [00:29:04] She wasn't this typical Molly Mormon. She likes science and she's brilliant. You know, she's the scholarship girl at an age senior in high school when people are telling girls to go find their eternal companion at byu, she's thinking, I want to be a biology researcher.

Joe Tippetts [00:29:26] And she didn't fit the mold. And for years I treated her like she was supposed to. And when she didn't, it felt disappointing to me. Like, why don't you want to be the wife? That if I bring somebody home, you know, some people over for dinner, you're the wife who will be ready with some food or, you know, like a good Mormon wife, like Emma and Joseph. And that's a mold we've never fit.

Joe Tippetts [00:30:00] And I think the mold, this mold may be the biggest lie out there. And it's the biggest thing we can use to. It creates fear. When people leave the church, they're fearing that they're getting outside of that perceived mold that they probably never fit fully Anyway, some of us did a pretty good job of looking like we did. But I just reject this mold concept. I really do.

John Dehlin [00:30:35] I support the spirit of what you're saying, and I think everyone's a buffet Mormon and a cafeteria Mormon. No one believes everything. No one does everything. Like, there's a level at which I'm like, I'm totally with you 100%. Like, yeah. And. And even if. If we're going to say the mold means It's. It's paying 10% of your gross, or the mold is, you know, no black tea, but green tea is okay. Like, you, you know, we can get in all these details when we're talking about the mold.

Joe Tippetts [00:31:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:05] And I, you know, I can totally see where you're coming from. I do think that, though that's a subtle way of missing what I'm really trying to say. Another way to say it would be, let's just say you. You get elected to Congress, so you're a member of the House of Representatives, and the whole point is to, like, vote on legislation, make laws, to propose legislation. Yeah, but you don't really believe that laws exist.

John Dehlin [00:31:35] And so maybe you sit in your office, but maybe you don't show up for the votes, or maybe you show up, but you don't really pay attention. You just push whatever button and you don't really engage because you don't really buy into the fact that they're actually making laws that govern people's lives.

John Dehlin [00:31:56] And it's at that level because the leaders. The church wouldn't exist without the leaders. And it's the leaders that are setting this mold. They're the ones doing it, and they're the ones saying that these are the terms and these are the official terms as spokesman of God, as special witnesses of Jesus. And so there's a level at which everything you're saying is beautiful and I love it and I support it. There's a level at which I think you're kind of avoiding a reality, which is that we were all given the binary mindset. We were all taught this doctrine of theology. We're told that they're prophets of God.

John Dehlin [00:32:36] We're told that they're special witnesses of Christ. Everyone's operating under that assumption. And those are the terms of the relationship. Just like a congressman proposes legislation, votes on legislation, and those laws actually impact people's lives. There's a degree to which you're basically saying, I want to be in Congress, but not of Congress. I want to be in the church, but not of the church. And to reduce what I'm saying to like, I'm trying to impose some arbitrary sadduceeical mold that everyone has to fit a mold. I'm not saying that.

Joe Tippetts [00:33:14] I'm not saying that.

John Dehlin [00:33:14] I'm saying some would say. And again, this isn't a criticism because I love what you're doing. I think it's beautiful. So some would say you're not really engaging in Mormonism, you're just kind of doing your own thing in the church, but you're really not cooperating with and engaging with the whole purpose and intent of the organization, not only as it was established, but as it has been taught and supported for 150 years. And if you. I have a secret hope that you'll let go. I get what you're saying. Versus just like, oh, there's lots of ways to be Mormon. Because I think there's something to what I'm saying. Even if I love and celebrate what you're doing, I think if you're being honest, there's a degree to which you're really in Congress but not legislating. You know what I mean?

Joe Tippetts [00:34:09] Yeah. I'm not trying to gaslight you. I'm not saying that what you're saying is not true. That there is. If you go to byu, you are going to be formed by a mold. If you are a missionary, you have a little white Bible, you are going to be molded in a certain way. I am saying, I feel like when I say I reject the mold, I am not rejecting the fact that it exists. The mold that for so long you don't have a beard. The mold that you wear a white shirt. The mold. Because one leader gave a talk about it once.

John Dehlin [00:34:54] And all that stuff I see is petty and arbitrary. Yeah, that's not what I'm talking about. Yeah.

Joe Tippetts [00:34:57] That's minor stuff, but I feel empowered, I guess, to engage with the church in a way that feels right to me.

John Dehlin [00:35:14] Yeah. Yeah. And no one can argue with that.

Joe Tippetts [00:35:17] Yeah. And I would say everybody has that right. Even if what you're describing is so powerful, it's so strong in terms of the mindset of people feeling like I need to look a certain way, I need to act a certain way, I need to know certain things are true.

Joe Tippetts [00:35:35] But every ward, and I would say every ward. Look at the roles of the ward. Look how many people are members versus how many people come. Where do all those people go that you never see? It's people who don't feel like they can fit in to that mold or they don't want to. And my thought is, you know, what is the purpose of the church?

Joe Tippetts [00:36:07] You know, I'm kind of repeating myself. Is it to build more churches, more wards? Why would you write off the idea that in the end love is the central idea, even if you didn't feel that way and even if that hasn't been the reality for many people? Because for a lot of people, when they give their time, talents and everything they possess, if they're doing it over an extended period, they're doing it with love in their heart and they're reaching out and the church gives them ways to love over and over and that's the driving force in their life.

Joe Tippetts [00:36:53] And so I, I see what you're saying, but in the church it's not. People are so used to thinking of authority as external. An authority is your bishop or a prophet or, you know, usually some male leader. And to me the key relationship is directly with God.

Joe Tippetts [00:37:31] And we don't talk about that a lot because it sounds almost subversive. Like, oh, if you have an idea, if you're Rock Waterman or whoever, and if you have a different idea than the people we're saying are in authority, does that become dangerous? Are you going to go off on your own tangent and think you're right?

Joe Tippetts [00:37:51] And so instead we err on the other side where we kind of farm out our conscience to other people and we get so used to thinking that's what we're supposed to do that we forget what it feels like to say, oh, this person said this, this person in authority. I don't agree with it. And that's okay.

Joe Tippetts [00:38:17] I can be a great Latter Day Saint being a little different. We know the history where there are certain apostles that had different views on things. You don't hear it at church, but before the blacks got the priesthood, there was. Who was it? Hubie Brown and Mark E. Peterson. They had two very different views and they were both strong Latter Day Saints. You can be a Democrat and a Republican. You can be lots of different ways. I guess I'm saying this in the spirit of even if you think that hasn't been possible in the past, it's going to be possible in the future because as people leave churches, churches change, adapt and people come back.

Joe Tippetts [00:39:10] It's like waves going in and out. And in the end, what matters about a church is if you feel loved there. If you go to a church and you're constantly feeling conflict, you're feeling like you can't pursue truth because the church has a dogma that Conflicts with truth, you're going to leave.

Joe Tippetts [00:39:35] And then how is the church serving spiritual needs of people? You could have the attitude of, oh, if they leave, they're bad people and they didn't choose, and the celestial kingdom is going to be small. I don't think that if we're all God's children, I think God's going to have a lot of ways for us to get back.

Joe Tippetts [00:39:56] Whether you see that as metaphorical or whether you see that as literal. And I just. We need to change the discussion. This idea that's so rigid, it locks the church into being this certain way because a few key leaders who were vocal over 40 years or 50 years had an approach that was widely embraced by. But how was it a hundred years ago? How's it going to be in a hundred years?

Joe Tippetts [00:40:33] It's easy to just blow off the church or any church and say, it's just a dogmatic, stifled place with a bunch of sheep. It's a lot harder to say, I'm going to see something good in this, and maybe I even help change it. How revolutionary is that?

Joe Tippetts [00:40:54] Is that seen as rebellion or positive? I want a church that my kids, if they wanted to, could say, I could see myself there. I can see myself being loved there. I want a church where. I want a place where people feel like they could come and feel welcome and loved. And even if they can't fit this mold that you're talking about, I think I'm repeating myself over and over, but I'm just trying to drive it home. That don't buy the idea that if you can't be this certain way, that the church is not only a bad place for you, but it's hostile and, like, cultures develop and traditions develop, and maybe we have some bad traditions.

Joe Tippetts [00:41:46] How are they changing? Are we waiting for somebody to stand up and announce we're allowed to change? I don't think so. I think it changes by lots of people saying, hey, I think a little differently on this issue. And things change over time.

John Dehlin [00:42:06] You're saying we are the church.

Joe Tippetts [00:42:07] Yeah, we.

John Dehlin [00:42:10] Not the leaders. The members.

Joe Tippetts [00:42:12] The leaders are important parts of the church.

John Dehlin [00:42:16] It's like the body of Christ, the head and the feet and the hands. Everybody's kind of got their role. But the body is bigger than the head, right? Body's more than the head.

Joe Tippetts [00:42:27] A lot more.

John Dehlin [00:42:28] Yeah. Let's see. A couple more questions. Is there anything. I mean, obviously God telling you to leave the church would cause you to leave the church. Is there anything the church could do that would make you feel like you needed to leave it again, like, if

Joe Tippetts [00:42:46] they secretly have $100 billion in an

John Dehlin [00:42:49] account,

Joe Tippetts [00:42:51] I laugh at that, knowing that a lot of people are frustrated with that. But. When I was 25, if you would have told me I was going to leave the church, I would have had no clue how to process that.

Joe Tippetts [00:43:10] I can only say that I want to be part of this church, and I am not. I don't have any lines where if somebody stands up in general conference and says something, or if the church gives a press release and says something, that's not me waiting to say, oh, they did that thing, and I'm out of here.

Joe Tippetts [00:43:32] I want to be there, and I want to be part of making it a good place. And so I don't know, the younger me that was sure would easily be able to say with certainty, never, ever. And then 10 years later, I did. And so my heart wants to be there, and that's what I'm committed to right now.

John Dehlin [00:44:07] If you're in Chicago and someone randomly walks up to you and says, hey, what religion are you? Are you comfortable saying, I'm a member

Joe Tippetts [00:44:16] of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?

John Dehlin [00:44:18] That's what you'd say.

Joe Tippetts [00:44:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:20] And they'd say, what is that? Does that mean you're Mormon?

Joe Tippetts [00:44:22] You might know it as Mormon or lds.

John Dehlin [00:44:24] Okay.

Joe Tippetts [00:44:25] But, yeah, I would proudly say it.

John Dehlin [00:44:28] And would there be any part of you that would want to sort of say, but I'm not racist, or I'm not homophobic, or I, I'm okay with science and I'm not like, would you want to give additional. Would you feel a pull to give additional disclaimers or allowances for more progressive or liberal ideology? Or could you just allow people to think, yeah, he's lds, which means Mormon, and would you just be okay with that?

Joe Tippetts [00:44:55] Well, in this hypothetical scenario where somebody walks up to me and asks, what religion are you? I assume there's a conversation that follows that. And I would certainly want to provide clarifying information if they had some assumptions about me that they associated with this church, like a past with racism.

John Dehlin [00:45:21] You know, when I used to answer that question back then, it was okay to say Mormon. I would just. I would worry that if I told someone just, I'm a Mormon. Yep.

Joe Tippetts [00:45:30] It's still okay to say for you, I want to honor what. I'm not offended when you say that.

John Dehlin [00:45:37] My only point is that I was embarrassed by the. The general perceptions about some of the things that people know and think about Mormons that. That they don't like LGBT people, that they can be racist, that they are polygamous or whatever, that they're Republican or they're conservative, which, you know, some of those things can be true at times. And I. I'm just wondering if you ever have that sort of part of you that doesn't want to fully be identified or wants to give those asterisks or explanations because you're not fully, fully comfortable with how Mormons are perceived in the broader world.

Joe Tippetts [00:46:11] I would hope to be able to change the perception that, you know, if a black person or a gay person approached me with that question and then was ready to tell me that they felt like that was a problem and that I might even be their enemy because of it, I would definitely hope to change their perception. And maybe more than changing their perception, I would want to just listen to them and learn how they have come to feel that way. You know, is it. I know there's good reasons for it. I'm not saying there aren't. But I would hope I would come across as somebody who's not, you know, dogmatic or ready to just tell them what's what. I would hope to engage in a conversation with them where they could sense that I respect them, and I would hope that they could see that in me as the.

Church Trends, LGBTQ Members, and Dissatisfied Believers

John Dehlin [00:47:20] Let's just say that, I mean, over time, we know that people are leaving the church, A lot of people are leaving the church. And I know that concerns you on some level, at least in instances where people might want to stay or be able to stay or benefit by staying. But let's just say the trend in the church is towards metaphorical belief and away from literal belief, towards more progressive ideologies and away from more conservative ones.

Joe Tippetts [00:47:52] Well, the book Millennials. What's the book?

John Dehlin [00:47:58] Yeah, Jana Reese's book.

Joe Tippetts [00:47:59] Jana Reese's book. She's showing, you know, you could call it prophetic because she's talking to millennials. She's seeing their views, and these are the people who are going to be.

John Dehlin [00:48:11] And my question is, do you think the church becomes a weaker church, the less the rigid sort of conservative ideology? There's this idea in sociology that the more demands a religion exerts on its people, the more, the more committed they are, and the less demand you put on your membership, either in theology or in practice, the weaker their allegiance to the organization comes. So. So as more and more members may be trying to adopt more of a progressive or open minded, less literal mindset with regards to the church, do you see that weakening the Church?

Joe Tippetts [00:48:56] No, I see religion, mine and others matching the times they're in. And so when we talk about a Church in 1830 where everybody and their dog was starting a new church and having a vision and starting a little community off in the woods somewhere, that was a thing back in that time. It was part of their time.

Joe Tippetts [00:49:24] And I wasn't trying to say that in a way to demean the church, but if you study history, people were doing. There were lots of little groups doing that type of thing. It was in the air. And then.

Joe Tippetts [00:49:39] I think our church is very unique in the way it was isolated for a few decades in Utah, but for a lot of years, we've tried to. When my oldest brother, the one who passed away when he was young, an extended family member tried to tell him something about.

Joe Tippetts [00:50:04] I think he was entering his teenage years, and he was trying to talk to him about sex, which would have been a lot better to let my dad do that instead of him. But he said something about sex just being for children, having children.

Joe Tippetts [00:50:21] And today, if you asked the average faithful Mormon, they would say what? You know, sex is about bonding in a relationship. It's about far more than just having children. But somebody 50 years ago, if that was part of the morality of the time, whether they were actually practicing that or not.

Joe Tippetts [00:50:47] I just think the church can evolve in a way. You can see the word demanding as. As a negative word, like it's just sucking so much out of you. But in my experience, when I have been most engaged in the church, in the past, when the church was expecting things out of me, it tended to be me that demanded the most out of me, trying to do my best, and I loved it. And so I don't think demanding has to be.

Joe Tippetts [00:51:24] I think we could still be a church that asks people to sacrifice in a lot of ways, and that could be a path to them having a lot of joy while still being able to evolve over time because culture evolves.

Joe Tippetts [00:51:45] And I think our evolution with the way our leadership structure is where somebody might be called when they're in their 40s or 50s and last 30 or 40 years, I think our change cycles tend to go with that kind of time frame as older leaders cycle out and newer ones cycle in and they're going to have. Without seeing the older leaders as wrong. I think younger leaders are just naturally going to have different sensibilities and bring about changes that a previous generation of leaders didn't. And so you could say, if I feel like the younger leader, take the issue of homosexuality, if I Think that's an idea that the current generation of leaders has had for 50 years.

Joe Tippetts [00:52:48] And if I think leaders in 20 years will approach it in a different way, I don't think that's being unfaithful to think that. It's just watching history unfold. And so a lot of people will say the Mormon church takes 20 years longer than everybody else to get it right.

Joe Tippetts [00:53:14] And that's the nature of a conservative institution, is you conserve things longer. But I don't think that prevents me or any other member of this church from having our own views on certain things.

John Dehlin [00:53:32] Yeah. One of our listeners, Kristin, a dear friend of mine. Hey, Kristen. I think Aaron's tuning in at some point, too. Kristen writes, as a woman, how do you say, quote, I'm not going to fit their mold? Question mark? The patriarchy is not my choice. The inequality and sexism comes with the package. How does this environment feel? Loving to me? And I think you could probably say the same thing about an LGBT person who's told they can't love who they love, or a trans person, a transgender person who's told gender is eternal. And whatever gender you were assigned at birth, that's the gender you are. You know, whatever the case may be, Kristin's sort of voicing probably concerns from a lot of vulnerable or minority or disempowered populations in the church.

Joe Tippetts [00:54:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:28] You know, again, she says, how does this environment feel? Loving to me. And if you express this concern for change, you're likely misunderstood, brushed off, and stigmatized, if not, in extreme cases, excommunicated. What would you say to someone like Kristen, who's a feminist or someone who's a thinker or someone who's lgbt, you know, when they say, like, this church is actually kind of hostile to who I am at my core, it seems.

Joe Tippetts [00:54:59] I would love to go to dinner with Kristen and her husband and bring my wife, because I think my wife would have a better perspective. I can try to have a perspective that I think is thoughtful, but I think it'll ring hollow coming from me. I think my.

John Dehlin [00:55:17] Because you'd be mansplaining.

Joe Tippetts [00:55:19] Yeah. I think my wife is, in her case, specifically asking about, from a woman's perspective. My wife's in the same boat, and there are some things about the church she enjoys, and there are some things about the church that are really hard to connect with. So I want to. I want to pass on that one or invite. Is this person local?

John Dehlin [00:55:52] Oh, they live in Arkansas.

Joe Tippetts [00:55:54] Or a phone call or something, a Skype call or something. I would love to have this conversation, but I would really like. This was the question earlier that I said I liked on the list of questions on Facebook. It's a conversation I would love to have more, but I would really like to listen more than explain.

John Dehlin [00:56:17] That's a good policy. That's a good policy. Well, I really like what, I really like what Stephen writes here. Steven Farrell Jr. Writes, I could never feel the same way, but I can tell Joe is a good, kind hearted guy that wants to be wanted and feel part of a community. And I would add, that is following his conscience and his perception of what God wants him to do. And he goes on to write, if the church can give him that, even though the truth claims in Stephen's opinion are false, then more power to him, maybe he can make an impact on people in his own ward. And really that's what matters. So that's what Stephen's saying. What do you think about what Stephen's saying?

Joe Tippetts [00:57:02] I'm just thinking about my attempts to make, if you take God out of it, this experience that I have shared. If you're just looking at it very practically in terms of at some point being part of a group is going to do, does the good outweigh the harm?

John Dehlin [00:57:28] Utilitarian.

Joe Tippetts [00:57:29] Utilitarian. And I would say, you know, maybe today you have this perception, not unfounded, you know, based on reality. I'm not calling it fake. Maybe today you have a perception that the church could never work for you because you feel like if you go there you have to keep your mouth shut or people are going to feel uncomfortable around you because of things you say or whatever.

Joe Tippetts [00:58:03] That's. Instead of saying that's just how it is, end of story. I would like to say, Can people help make us better? Like if 20 people that used to go to church in a ward come back to the church and instead of just saying this is a hostile environment, here's how it is. You probably have a lot of friends in your neighborhood if you've lived there and if you were active in the ward there for a while, is there a way that we could think about this again, like rethink it instead of calling it done?

Joe Tippetts [00:58:54] And is there a way it could award learn to be more sensitive? The people I interact with in my ward are really nice and good people. And I don't think they say things with the intent to harm. And I think if they had a way to be told in a way that isn't attacking them because none of us respond well to just feeling critiqued or attacked. But what if people said, hey, you know what? I miss the community.

Joe Tippetts [00:59:30] And if maybe these two or three things could improve, maybe I could fit in there even if I'm not a traditional believer, or even if I'm not a believer at all, Maybe I just like hanging out with my neighbors. And.

Joe Tippetts [00:59:50] Could we have that conversation? Are there people who. Can you imagine a forum where, like, I've been thinking, how cool would it be if we sent out a survey to everybody in our ward, you know, all the members on the list, where people, instead of just feeling like it was kind of, I'm in or I'm out, end of discussion.

Joe Tippetts [01:00:17] Where we ask them, you know, how do you feel? What could make a difference? You know, how can. It's like mending a friendship that was broken. I remember when I was a little kid, well, about 11 years old, and I had this close friend, and we got mad at each other once, and we didn't want to hang out for about a year. And then one night we were running around the halls in a dark church playing tag or something, and we both ended up in this little nook by a bishop's office.

Joe Tippetts [01:00:51] And we had. We hadn't talked to each other for a year. And one of. I think he turned to me and said, I've missed you. I'm like, I've missed you, too. Let's be friends again. And we became best friends again.

Joe Tippetts [01:01:08] And is that, you know, back to that germ analogy? Is there a way we can wash our hands a little bit? Is there a way we could do things differently where somebody who isn't a traditional believer can say, you know, maybe I can give a little. And maybe people at the church can learn how to talk a little bit more sensitively.

Joe Tippetts [01:01:36] And maybe there's some common ground we have that we've spent a few years thinking was impossible. And maybe I could be really happy re engaging in those relationships? I'm very much an idealist, but I don't hear us talking about these discussions. All I hear are discussions about people who stay and are faithful and people who leave and are apostates or, you know, the great who fell? And why don't we have conversations about can we be friends again?

Joe Tippetts [01:02:11] And if it's not at church, are there other ways we can be friends within our neighborhood to where that guy who stops going to church and his family's still going isn't just somebody who kind of disappears for a few years, but, you know, is still involved in ways with the community and with friendships in Ways that make sense.

John Dehlin [01:02:37] I love it. So to close, if it's all right, do you have a plea for. Let's just say somebody right now is about to go through a faith crisis, or they're in the middle of a faith crisis, or let's say they've left the church and they're totally gone. I know that you're on the record saying you don't believe you have to be Mormon to be healthy or happy. You don't have to be Mormon to be, like, blessed by God. Mormons aren't better than anybody. There's good in this church, but there's good outside the church. That not everybody in your view is called to be an active Mormon in this life and that you don't think

Final Reflections and Closing Thoughts

Joe Tippetts [01:03:18] that that's the overwhelming majority and that

John Dehlin [01:03:21] you don't think that's a requirement or something that's superior. I just want to make sure we close with that. That you're not taking any position of superiority or exclusivity.

Joe Tippetts [01:03:30] Correct.

John Dehlin [01:03:30] So given all that, do you have an appeal or a plea for either a doubting Mormon who's active still, or a questioning Mormon, or an inactive Mormon or an ex Mormon? Do you have a call to them or a plea to consider or to come back or to entertain the idea, or do you have any type of thing you want to say in closing is some sort of appeal to anyone?

Joe Tippetts [01:03:58] I just think it's so sad that people can feel so isolated and so much frustration and anger. It won't necessarily be the members of the church who start it. Sometimes we leave the church and we say they're the ones professing to be so good and so full of truth.

Joe Tippetts [01:04:24] If we're going to fix this relationship, let the holy people do it. And I think that attitude maybe doesn't work. I just feel this sense that instead of assuming that leaving the church or changing the way you believe about the church has to mean that relationships end.

Joe Tippetts [01:04:57] First. I want to say to any members who are listening, maybe you've distanced yourself from a friend or a family member who left because it's awkward. Reach out. Maybe you're fearing that they're going to think that the only reason you're reaching out is because you're trying to convert them. Tell them explicitly that you care about them whether they ever come back to the church or not. Just clear the water, clear the air. I mean, and let them know.

Joe Tippetts [01:05:30] Because in the back of their minds, they're probably thinking, you're only doing this to try to get me back show them that that's not the case. Be a friend. And the people who are out of the church and feeling separated, whether it's from family members or from neighbors in your ward area, pick one person who you considered a really good friend and start a conversation.

Joe Tippetts [01:06:11] Don't make it the conversation of all the reasons that you believe the church isn't true. Make it safe for them to start. Maybe that'll come over time, But let's stop assuming these relationships have to end and let's do the work to rebuild them.

Joe Tippetts [01:06:37] Because as far as I'm concerned, as a follower of this church and a follower of Christ, how I treat people matters more than whether I convert anybody. And I just hope we can find ways to find common ground in our neighborhoods and in our families.

Joe Tippetts [01:07:07] And it starts with kind conversations where you suppress the need to rescue somebody or show somebody how stupid their religion is. Instead, focus on the relationship and trying to build it. I guess that's all I can say. I want to do that on my own. And if you're listening to this, think of one person you can do that with, and I think life will be better.

John Dehlin [01:07:39] Anything else you want to say before we end?

Joe Tippetts [01:07:42] I think that's it.

John Dehlin [01:07:44] All right. Be kind, everybody. Be good to each other, and let's find ways to build bridges, not divisions.

Joe Tippetts [01:07:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:59] Yeah. I love it. Well, Joe, thank you so much for coming on Mormon Stories and giving us so many hours of your time. And so many people have written that. They just love your heart, they love your attitude, they love your gentleness, your kindness. You can go back and read, but there's a lot of people saying nice things. There's other people who don't like it and are uncomfortable with it, but I know you're seasoned enough to not be bothered by that, and.

John Dehlin [01:08:25] But I'm grateful for everyone who's tuned in. I know that this is going to reach people, and there's actually several people that posted saying they've also left the church and then got rebaptized. So, I mean, this is going to be a thing as long as the church is thriving and, you know, existing and doing what it does, there's going to be people that leave and then decide they want to come back. So if they're going to do that, I hope they do it in your style. So I'm just really grateful. Thanks for coming on and stay in touch.

Joe Tippetts [01:08:57] All right.

John Dehlin [01:08:58] Will ya?

Joe Tippetts [01:08:59] Yes, definitely.

John Dehlin [01:09:00] Okay. All right, Joe Tippetts, everybody. Thanks so much, Joe. And just to close, thanks to everyone for tuning in. Thanks for everyone's support. Please if you are a supporter of Mormon Stories Podcast or the Open Stories foundation financially, thank you.

John Dehlin [01:09:20] If you are not but you value this programming and want to see it continue, we invite you to consider becoming a monthly donor. You can go to MormonStories.org, click on the donate button, choose the amount that works for you.

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John Dehlin [01:09:49] There's lots of ways you can support us. We do have a Thrive Event coming to Phoenix February 1st. Go to thrivebeyondmormonism.com to check that out. We also have Thrive Event coming to Chicago in April. Again, go to thrivebeyondmormonism.com to find out information about that event. We have some other retreats and activities we want to be promoting in the weeks and months ahead, including for the next two months. Natasha Alfer Parker is presenting weekly here at the Thrive center in Holiday, Utah on different aspects of navigating a faith crisis. So if you live near Salt Lake City or Holiday, come on Wednesdays at 7pm and there'll probably be a fun activity of Progressive and Post Mormons or just Post Mormons where we're trying to create community and heal and grow together and support each other.

John Dehlin [01:10:42] And members come too. So we've had several people who actively attend church. You're also welcome. And maybe we'll show up in your ward one of these days as well. I think Joe would like that.

Joe Tippetts [01:10:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:54] So thanks for all the support. Please stay tuned and we look forward to seeing you guys again soon on Mormon Stories Podcast. Take care everybody.

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