Introduction and Personal Reflections on Leaving Mormonism

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Guest 2 [00:00:36] The kindly light amid encircling gloom

Guest [00:00:43] Lead

Guest 2 [00:00:43] thou me on the night is dark and I am far from home

John Dehlin [00:00:53] it's really.

John Dehlin [00:00:54] It's really. Thanks, Amelia. That's good. It's such an incredible honor for me to be here. Cache Valley Oasis really holds a special place in my heart. It was in, I'm going to guess, summer of 2015 when we first met at a pizza joint and started brainstorming about trying to create a community for people who needed a community. And I'm pretty sure it wasn't a month or so later that we had our first meeting at the Unitarian Universalist Church here in Logan, and we filled up the building on our first meeting. So we had to find a new venue. And Cache Valley Oasis has been meeting here ever since. And it's so gratifying for me to see the community thriving. I've been inactive a little bit the past few months, but not really. I'm just engaged in lots of stuff, but my heart has never stopped being here. So thanks for giving me a chance to say goodbye a little bit. It's emotional for me to be leaving Cache Valley. There's so many dear friends here and so many happy memories. But at the same time, it's time for our family to move to Salt Lake, but we hope to stay connected. This talk I wrote this morning and I think I'm going to violate every rule of writing an effective talk. I have way too many slides, I'm probably going to talk way too fast. There's going to be way too few stories, and there's no multimedia at all in my presentation. So I'm just going to acknowledge that up front. What this is for me is sort of it's just sort of a presentation from the heart.

John Dehlin [00:02:55] I wanted to share

John Dehlin [00:02:58] things that I've

John Dehlin [00:03:00] learned over the past 12 or so

John Dehlin [00:03:01] years of trying to work with people like you, and once I started compiling some of these ideas and lessons, they just kept flowing. So I'll record this and if I go too fast, but you find something of value there'll be a way for you to listen again. But also part of my motivation in having several topics is just to make sure that there's maybe at least one thing that each of you will take away of value from this presentation. So that's what today's presentation is. It's simply reflections of things that I've learned over the past 12 years. And again, thanks to Cash Value Oasis for having me.

John Dehlin [00:03:40] The first thing that came to my

John Dehlin [00:03:42] mind is just gratitude. I have so, so much to be grateful for. Not only do I have so much privilege as a white, straight, you know, tall, educated, cisgender, you know, male in the middle class, but just life has been very, you know, good to me and I believe, to my family.

John Dehlin [00:04:10] And specifically, what was in my heart

John Dehlin [00:04:13] when I wrote this slide was the gratitude that I have for Mormonism. A lot of my talk is oriented towards things I've learned, questioning and challenging and leaving and things that I've observed

John Dehlin [00:04:25] and others who have left.

John Dehlin [00:04:27] But I wouldn't be honest if I didn't start by saying how much I believe my life has been enhanced by my participation in the Mormon Church and how much good I see in it and how much I acknowledge that it brings in terms of goodness to other people's lives.

John Dehlin [00:04:47] And I really do mean that.

John Dehlin [00:04:48] It's not just a disclaimer for a bunch of negative things I'm going to say. It's something that it's probably the first and most important thing I wanted to lead with was the gratitude I have in my heart and the good feelings that I have towards the Mormon Church and what it's given me and my life and my family, everything that I. That I've done over the past 12 years. And the whole reason why I know many of you, or definitely why some of you know me, is because I found myself sitting in an office, a very nice office in Redmond, Washington, you know, probably 14 or 15 years ago, making over $200,000 a year, interacting with the top executives of Microsoft, having sort of the job of my dreams that anyone would ask for, you know, on track to be a millionaire certainly within another five years of staying there. And I was completely miserable. And it was because I had experienced such a significant faith crisis. There was no one around me that could really help me.

John Dehlin [00:05:59] And that was, you know, I could

John Dehlin [00:06:01] have dealt with that.

John Dehlin [00:06:02] But as soon as I started talking, so many people came out of the

John Dehlin [00:06:05] woodworks who needed help and support, and I saw so many people suffering in silence.

John Dehlin [00:06:11] And so I took a gamble with

John Dehlin [00:06:13] Margi my sweet wife, my brilliant wife, and our kids.

John Dehlin [00:06:17] And we decided to do something really

John Dehlin [00:06:19] crazy, which was to leave an incredibly lucrative job with a really bright future, to make almost nothing, to go back to school, to try and pursue a dream that I really didn't even understand what was going to be about. When I left Microsoft, podcasts didn't exist. The ipod had just been created, and there's no way I could have foreseen what would have happened.

John Dehlin [00:06:43] All I knew was that I was miserable, stuck in something that was not

John Dehlin [00:06:48] fulfilling to me, and that I was being feeling pulled to do something different, more meaningful for me. And I paid my dues. I mean, we paid our dues. We worked in the, you know, in the professional war for 10 or 15 years and we learned stuff and we saved money. So, you know, you have to be thoughtful and not reckless. But we definitely made this bet that we were going to defy all reason,

John Dehlin [00:07:13] go back to grad school, become poor

John Dehlin [00:07:17] in many ways, to follow a dream and to follow our bliss. And you wouldn't think that I would be able to say that I had no regrets, but I've had no regrets now. That doesn't mean it hasn't been brutal, but I just want to say that for me, following my bliss when the time admission was right was an absolutely crucial decision. And it's made all the difference in some ways. And I just wanted to share that with you.

John Dehlin [00:07:44] That doesn't mean that you won't be

John Dehlin [00:07:46] bloodied on the way you will be. And as I reflected upon this more, I realized that to be fair, I would say that you may bloody others on the way and that your loved ones might be bloodied, and that's just a reality. And the only thing I would say is in response to that is that's

John Dehlin [00:08:08] probably going to be true if you

John Dehlin [00:08:09] don't take that big step. And so in some ways, you can choose a life. Well, you can have a life of health and meaning and happiness if that's what you have, but if that's not what you have and there's something that you're being called towards, I guess I would just want to say that you can live a life of sadness and void of meaning and have really hard things happen to you, or you can take that leap, have hard things happen to you still, but also have the shot at some really incredibly meaningful things. And so for me, I'm sad about the pain that I've experienced and that others have experienced on the way. But to me, that's all part of it this is something that I actually wrote on the slide. Driving here today, driving in my car, pulling up my laptop and adding a slide. You're going to make big mistakes along the way. And I think one of the most damaging things about the heritage from which we come is this idea that life is this test and we're supposed to strive for perfection and purity. And I think that's well intended. I think excellence is a great thing. But I think this culture of purity and of perfection and of, you know, void of sort of a fundamental belief in the, of individual self worth is really damaging. And so what I've learned is that you're going to make really big mistakes along the way, and that's okay. Do your best. And if you can't do your best, just do what you can do. And if you're doing awful, do awful until you can do better.

John Dehlin [00:10:00] But along the way, have self compassion

John Dehlin [00:10:04] and most importantly, lose the shame. Shame does not motivate and so lose is a sacred privilege to spend your life attempting to help and serve others. And I don't say that to elevate myself. Just telling you that it's been an incredibly powerful privilege for me to be able to interact with people and to be a small part of their journey. And sometimes they're healing throughout their lives. And so if you have any inclination, either professionally or just as a hobby to pursue that course, it's worth it. Hold labels loosely. A lot of you may see that sometimes I'm criticized and that's really hard, and sometimes I'm also really praised. And the thing of wisdom that I've learned from both of those things is that neither are really true. You're not the awful person that your critics say that you are. And you're not the amazing, glorified, you know, hero that people hold you out to be. Both of those things are untrue. We're all pretty much in the middle somewhere.

John Dehlin [00:11:35] And so it's important to hold both

John Dehlin [00:11:37] labels loosely, both the criticisms and the accolades. This may be a little bit controversial for some of you. I think we all struggle with self worth. And I believe that if you're ever feeling rudderless, if you're ever feeling like you're struggling, consider that you're a social creature and that in my experience it's just been a reality of life that

John Dehlin [00:12:08] your social value lies in your ability

John Dehlin [00:12:11] to influence and to influence through effective communication and through the things that you create that are meaningful to people. And a more elegant way to say that is every time in life that you get discouraged. Consider finding a way to create something that is meaningful to someone. And I found that that almost every time does the trick and takes you to a better place, to a healthier place, to a stronger place.

John Dehlin [00:12:45] As I think about some of the

John Dehlin [00:12:47] lessons that I've learned from my interaction with the church, with the Mormon church, and with religion in general, the first thing I wanted to say is that truth matters. For many, many years, I tried to say that, you know,

John Dehlin [00:13:01] as long as you're healthy and happy, and as long

John Dehlin [00:13:04] as you're, you know, finding your way, you know truth, you know truth is okay. But many other things are important. And I can't say that that's all wrong. But I do want to say that truth matters. People deserve to build their life on things that are real. And I think one of the great acts of violence that you can commit on a human is, is conditioning or manipulating or deceiving them into basing their life on something that isn't fully what it claims to be. So in that sense, I just want to say that for me, a core value is that truth matters. And that truth in reality really is worth fighting and sacrificing for. There is a line of research in the field of mental health that basically says that people who view the world

John Dehlin [00:14:01] realistically are a little bit more depressed

John Dehlin [00:14:03] than people who view the world unrealistically or through rose colored glasses or basing their life on myth or whatever.

John Dehlin [00:14:11] I don't know if that's totally true

John Dehlin [00:14:13] or not, but I just know that life is really precious. And the only thing that we know for sure is that we have this moment right now.

John Dehlin [00:14:23] We don't even know that we'll have tomorrow.

John Dehlin [00:14:26] My dear, brilliant, sweet sister was diagnosed. Gina was diagnosed with colon cancer in October of last year, and she didn't make it to Christmas. We got to see her one time. Gina never knew any of her grandkids, if she's to have any. And she lived a beautiful, inspiring life. But one of the things she encouraged me to do is to get my colonoscopy. That was a joke. The other thing that she encouraged me to do is to try and try and value every moment, because now is really the only guarantee you have. And so for me, basing my life on what's real allows me to not only make the most of every moment that I have, but to value every moment that I have, because it's the only thing that I have for sure. Another thing I've learned from my engagement with religion is that in 2017, the age of prophets and gurus is mostly behind us for, I guess, modern, healthy, educated people. That's just my experience. It's not to say that prophets and gurus are ever going to leave the human experience, but for people that I interact with, they're not looking for a new guru, they're not looking for a leader, they're not looking for a prophet. That's not what I think 21st century progression and health is about. Instead, for me, the trick of life is to find the guru within. If any of you have seen that movie kumare, it's a great illustration of that point. And in some ways, we've been systematically detached from ourselves for decades. And so this may sound glib, but it's not a trivial matter to step back from your life and begin getting in tune with what you actually think and what you really care about and what your values truly are. And it's a journey. But I would say that that's the great epic journey of the 21st century is not looking to prophets, but to your internal guide and learning to cultivate that. Another thing that I've learned that's really hard to break myself of is that the era of one path is no longer tenable for many. When I say one path, I'm not just talking about religion, although that's definitely an element. I'm talking about one type of family. The idea that there's one type of family, that there's one type of sexuality, that there's one type of joy or meaning or purpose or fulfillment or community, any of that.

Lessons Learned and Advice for the Transition

John Dehlin [00:17:14] It's so hard to break myself with

John Dehlin [00:17:16] this idea that if it makes me happy, it should make everyone else happy. And if it's wrong for me, it should be wrong for everybody else. And I do it all the time. But I list this to remind myself that we have to break ourselves of that thinking. It's not that certain horrible things are okay in some circumstances. I'm sure there are things that are awful in all circumstances and things that are just universally good. I'm not arguing for rampant moral relativism, but I think we all do better when we understand that there are many paths to joy. And different people are going to find different paths, and that's a good thing. The era of patriarchy is dying, and this notion of you obey because we say so and we have power over you is dying. People are able to share information like they never have before. People are able to form community and support for each other like they've never been before. And people have choices like they've never had before, and it's only going to accelerate. There's this idea in the technological world that technology advances relatively slowly at first, almost like an exponential curve. And there's the bleeding edge and then the leading edge and then the early adopters, and then at some point, I don't know the exact percentage, 17, 18%. Once enough of a critical mass of people start following down a certain path and realizing that there's value in something, think the iPhone. What you see is this avalanche of a tipping point where entitled masses then begin following suit. And we're on that trajectory right now. You're a part of it. And what I'm telling you is that the old way is that old white men rule and that women are silent and that minorities are silent and that young people are silent and powerless. That's going the way of the dinosaur. And there's some slides that I have later, but instead of moving them, I'm just going to speak to them. One of the most powerful things that I've noticed is how incredibly powerful women are at leadership. I think about, I don't know if you guys ever heard of WACA in Salt Lake City. My friend Kim Turner started it, and it's become this amazingly powerful movement of 40, 50, 60, 70 something women who have become dear friends and supporters of each other. When I think about the female leadership here in Cass Valley Oasis, when I think about Angie Johnson in Salt Lake City Oasis, or Helen, who started Kansas City Oasis and has begun helping Oasis become a bigger deal, I've just been in awe of the leadership that women possess. And it sounds almost condescending, but I'm just being genuine. Women are fabulous leaders. And any organization that deprives itself of some of its most brilliant and talented leadership is going to suffer if it continues. And I don't say that to curry favor. I say it because I see that as objective reality. Any group in the 21st century that is sort of built upon overt and explicit harm policies or doctrines of harm to vulnerable and misunderstood groups is going to be unacceptable to the millennials and to those that come after the millennials. And it's starting to become acceptable to the rest of us fogies. Unacceptable to the rest of us fogies as well. We need to rejoice.

John Dehlin [00:21:06] Not only rejoice in the diversity of

John Dehlin [00:21:09] the human experience, but incorporate it and

John Dehlin [00:21:16] celebrate the ways that it makes us all better. We are better when we incorporate all

John Dehlin [00:21:22] of us into our community and don't marginalize or disempower anyone. And so again, that's a truth that I've learned. I think this is something that not only applies to religion, but really applies to Oasis and secular communities and all organizations, businesses, et cetera.

John Dehlin [00:21:44] In 2017.

John Dehlin [00:21:47] Organizations that desire support and loyalty from their members must earn it. If you think about how hard it is to bring post Mormons to a meeting on Sunday, it's really hard.

John Dehlin [00:22:04] I'm surprised you're here, frankly. But the only way is to make

John Dehlin [00:22:12] that experience so compassion compelling that people

John Dehlin [00:22:15] just wouldn't not come.

John Dehlin [00:22:17] They have to come. And that's the way any organization that's going to thrive is going to succeed. Not by resting on its authority, not by resting on its laurels, not by depending on loyalty, but by every single day and every single week earning the loyalty of its people. So that applies to us as well. Some people feel as though they want or need religion to be good, happy or healthy. And something that I have to continue to remind myself is that this should be respected. It's not to be marginalized or discriminated against or judged. It is a reality of the world, and it is. It's a deeply important principle for many people. But it's also true that secularism is dominating the developed world world and will likely become the norm in the United States within 30 years. It's already the norm in Western Europe. It's spreading in many parts of developed Asia. And you guys know that the Nones, those who classify themselves as not belonging to any religious tradition, are not only the fastest growing, but the largest group religious group in the United States. So barring some global catastrophe that sends us all into poverty, worship of a divine being, secularism is here to stay. And it's going to be taking over. Churches are shrinking and dying all over the United States, not necessarily in the developing world, but in the developed world. And so one thing that I have to just declare boldly and proudly is you can be healthy and happy in a religion, but you can absolutely be healthy, happy and good and moral without a religion. And this is something that we are conditioned to fear and to not believe. And I can only just say it again. You do not need religion to be good or to be healthy or to be happy, to have a happy relationship, to have a happy family, or to raise healthy and happy children. Thank you. And you all are testaments of that. I didn't prove that to myself. I witnessed that in other people, and that's what taught me that principle.

John Dehlin [00:24:43] And you can absolutely screw up your

John Dehlin [00:24:46] life after leaving a religion. A friend of Mine, John Larsen. When he ended his podcast, he said, just, frankly, many of the post Mormons I know would have been better never leaving their church because of the mess that they made of their lives once they left. And I don't say that to be rude or mean or insulting. I'm making a larger point, which is we need to be wise. We need to be wise in what we do. There's nothing wrong with keeping the good of the things that we brought with us. A week does not go by where multiple times I am invited or pressured or manipulated or shamed into trying alcohol, okay?

John Dehlin [00:25:33] And I have zero problem with people drinking alcohol.

John Dehlin [00:25:36] I don't. I think it's morally, I think it's ethical. I think for many people, it's super healthy and enjoyable. I am a theoretical fan of alcohol

John Dehlin [00:25:46] and of course, moderate marijuana use, and I've never tried that either. Having said all that, I don't choose to do those things, okay? And it's not because I'm judging anyone. It's not because I think, oh, my gosh, I'll become an addict. It's just because what I'm doing works for me right now. And I don't see any need to change right now. And in some ways, I like to defy the stereotype. But more importantly, I'm pretty happy and healthy, and I don't need the calories personally, and I don't have the money because liquor is expensive. And most importantly, I don't ever want to put myself in a position where my judgment will be compromised, where I'd make a mistake that could hurt the people I love or the people that I'm trying to rally for. And so for me, I'm keeping that. And you don't have to keep that. But I'm asking you to consider, don't throw away the good, the heritage that you come from.

John Dehlin [00:26:43] Be thoughtful and wise and keep the good that you've learned.

John Dehlin [00:26:48] And there's so much good that we've learned from our heritage. I am stunned at the power of

John Dehlin [00:26:55] conditioning and social influence.

John Dehlin [00:26:57] I am so flabbergasted that for like, 15 years after I did not believe that the church was what it claims to be, that I continued actively attending. And that's not bad. But so much of it was tied to fear.

John Dehlin [00:27:17] Could I be happy?

John Dehlin [00:27:20] Could I find joy? Could I make a Sunday meaningful without these undergarments? Will I be safe?

John Dehlin [00:27:27] And will I be a moral, healthy person?

John Dehlin [00:27:30] And I'm just here to say that

John Dehlin [00:27:32] the power of conditioning and social influences incredibly strong.

John Dehlin [00:27:36] It's a gravitational pull akin to gravity

John Dehlin [00:27:39] on this Earth, few people are able to escape it. In some ways, escaping your religious tradition is a privilege. And I'm actually making that point for a reason.

John Dehlin [00:27:54] Because what I've learned is that people often want or need something to grab

John Dehlin [00:28:00] onto if they're ever going to let go of what they're currently holding on to. Does that make sense? And that's why community, that's why what we're doing here and what other people

John Dehlin [00:28:15] are doing all over the world is so important.

John Dehlin [00:28:18] What I believe post Mormons want and need most and secular people and post religious groups of others, and probably even

John Dehlin [00:28:26] Mormons and believe believers, people want validation that they're not crazy. And sometimes, you know, a lot of people say, why can't. Why did Mormons, why do post Mormons,

John Dehlin [00:28:35] they leave the church, but they can't leave it alone.

John Dehlin [00:28:37] It's because oftentimes you feel like you're going crazy because everyone around you thinks

John Dehlin [00:28:44] you're crazy and bad and sees the

John Dehlin [00:28:46] world completely differently than you. And so you're constantly second guessing your decisions and your convictions, even though logically you may know that the decision you made is right for you. And so why do people listen to 700 episodes of Mormon stories? It's because they never tire.

John Dehlin [00:29:04] Well, a lot of people do, and that's healthy.

John Dehlin [00:29:06] But for those who haven't, those who haven't tired of listening, they're desperate for that constant validation of exit narrative after exit narrative after exit narrative because it reassures them that they're not crazy and they're not dumb and they're not broken and they're not bad and they're still good people and that there are other people like them, and that's what that can offer. And then finally, people need new relationships to replace the ones that they lose when they make changes.

John Dehlin [00:29:39] Many of those relationships were built on sand.

John Dehlin [00:29:42] And so what I'm really trying to say is to let go of that thing that may not be true or may not be working for you. You need something else oftentimes to hold onto. And I think the core of that is community. So much of the core of the goodness of the heritage that we come from is community. I think that's probably the central, most

John Dehlin [00:30:04] important thing of what we come from. So many Mormons that I talk to don't really take the doctrine or the theology seriously.

John Dehlin [00:30:13] They're just like, ah, you know, it works for me.

John Dehlin [00:30:16] I kind of. I'm better in my life. My life goes better when I'm a part of it. And I think community is a huge part of that.

John Dehlin [00:30:22] So for me, some of the true

John Dehlin [00:30:25] heroes in my life in 2017 are

John Dehlin [00:30:29] the people that step up to lead secular communities when they could be enjoying

John Dehlin [00:30:35] a really fun Sunday. You know, but they understand either they

John Dehlin [00:30:40] have deep needs themselves or they're sacrificing their own situation to realize that other

John Dehlin [00:30:46] people need this and want it if they're going to be able to let go of something that wasn't healthy or working and grab something that was.

John Dehlin [00:30:55] And so if I have some analysis

John Dehlin [00:30:57] I've been trying to understand, how do we make oasis in other secular communities like Sunday assembly, etc.

John Dehlin [00:31:04] Thrive and Succeed? One thing I've realized is the Sunday morning attend a group meeting model probably is going to have limited value for many post religious people. That's not to say they won't show up. I mean, they can show up if they have the right incentive and if

John Dehlin [00:31:22] the community earns their attendance.

John Dehlin [00:31:24] But to measure the success of the community by people in seats on Sunday, I think is missing the true measures

John Dehlin [00:31:35] of success for a community like you're trying to build and like we're trying to build.

Building Secular Community and Meaningful Relationships

John Dehlin [00:31:41] Part of the problem is Sundays are just amazing, aren't they? Aren't Sundays amazing? Sundays are amazing. Hiking with the family, cooking a wonderful meal, and just sitting around with the kids. My biggest joy with my family is cooking a big meal. And I learned this from my dad, who's right here. He used to make Swedish pancakes for

John Dehlin [00:32:02] us and it was a big deal

John Dehlin [00:32:04] with strawberries and whipped cream and syrup

John Dehlin [00:32:07] and bacon, and we just loved it.

John Dehlin [00:32:09] And for me, one of the biggest joys of my life is making a big breakfast for my wife and kids.

John Dehlin [00:32:15] Or better yet, making it with my wife and kids.

John Dehlin [00:32:19] We all eat and then we're just kind of naturally sitting around the living room of our house and people just start talking.

John Dehlin [00:32:26] And they may talk about a date

John Dehlin [00:32:28] that they went on or something they learned in school or something they read on the news or something that they're struggling with. And we can have these beautiful, emotional, intimate experiences on Sunday. So why would anybody ever show up to something like this when they could be doing that? It's a fair question. Part of it is that Sundays are amazing. And part of it. Part of it is that post Mormons and post religious people often exhibit the

John Dehlin [00:32:55] traits of trauma victims.

John Dehlin [00:32:57] If you've ever studied trauma, if you've ever studied somebody with ptsd. I don't mean to minimize severe instances of trauma, but many of you have experienced social and emotional and sometimes physical

John Dehlin [00:33:12] and sexual trauma in association with your religious participation. And some of you may realize that, and some of you, it may be true, and you don't realize that. But when you look at the list of symptoms of someone who has ptsd, many of you will identify with those systems.

John Dehlin [00:33:31] And that makes it really hard to form community because you're forming community with a bunch of people that feel that

John Dehlin [00:33:37] they've been lied to, they feel like

John Dehlin [00:33:38] they've been deceived, they don't trust authority anymore, they don't trust groups, they often don't trust community. So how, and they're free thinkers and skeptics. How in the world do you form a community with people like that? It is really hard, super hard, almost impossible. So one of the things that I've learned, and I want to say that Cash Value Oasis has been a primary inspiration for me in this point, is that one of the measures of a successful community, community is the kernel of little small groups or cells of families or people that are like minded, that just like to get together and have fun. And I can think of a particular group or two here in Cache Valley. They just get together and have fun and they talk and they're open and they're vulnerable and they're candid and they love each other and they support each other. And it is one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen. No, it's not people coming every Sunday sitting in that chair. But those relationships were formed as a result of people meeting at these sorts of events. And those sorts of small groups can definitely be backbones or instrumental in the health and survival of groups like this. And so I would put forward that as being a much better measure of the success of one of these types of communities. If you don't have a community like

John Dehlin [00:35:00] that, try and form one, it can be amazing. In addition, instead of basing success on Sunday meetings, Sunday assembly put forward this idea of Smoops, which are small groups

John Dehlin [00:35:15] that meet during the week. Maybe they go to a bar and have a drink. Maybe they go to a sports event or watch an athletic event at the bar. Maybe it's mothers having a playgroup. Maybe it's people going mountain biking or hiking or skiing or playing board games or whatever it is, going to the movies. It can be all sorts of things. But that is probably a much better

John Dehlin [00:35:37] indicator of a healthy community again than some of the arbitrary sort of Sunday statistics that we are used to thinking about.

John Dehlin [00:35:45] So again, friendships sells and weekly smoops

John Dehlin [00:35:48] are Likely a far better metric of success than measuring Sunday attendance. I'm almost done. I. I promise. I love these meetings that we have where we all get together and have coffee. I think it's great. But I've been thinking about how to

John Dehlin [00:36:07] deepen people's experiences and commitment to the community.

John Dehlin [00:36:11] And one of the things that I've realized as I've held these workshops and retreats around the country

John Dehlin [00:36:18] is that there's something super powerful about people sitting in a circle exploring a concept or an

John Dehlin [00:36:25] idea that helps them in their lives.

John Dehlin [00:36:27] And then people being vulnerable and sharing some of the bad or worse or terrible or happy things that are happening to them in their lives and really building deeper relationships of emotional intimacy with people that they may not totally know. It's kind of risky and scary, but as I've had these workshops and communities, I've seen relationships form as a result. And I believe that somehow OASIS and other groups like this would do well to consider. I don't know if it's support groups,

John Dehlin [00:36:58] if it's sort of like a week

John Dehlin [00:37:01] night cluster of people in a cell who just share vulnerable things or learn together important topics. Growth, healing, healthy marriage, healthy relationships, healthy child rearing. Whatever the topics are, I think these communities will do well to strive to have deeper, more intimate, connective, emotional experiences

John Dehlin [00:37:24] on, let's just say a 10 to 15 person level. It's just something I've noticed.

John Dehlin [00:37:30] And that means in my mind there is a place for secular content or curriculum. Not new scripture, not anything definitive, nothing

John Dehlin [00:37:39] that's sort of held as the final word or authoritative for everyone.

John Dehlin [00:37:43] But I believe in John Gottman and the seven principles of healthy marriage. I believe in Harville Hendricks and the

John Dehlin [00:37:50] things he says about emotional intimacy and the patterns of attachment and a broken

John Dehlin [00:37:56] attachment that we form as children that last all throughout our lives. I believe in Shefali Save and the things that she has to teach about how to raise healthy children and to do so through connection and not through

John Dehlin [00:38:09] control and coercion and punishment.

John Dehlin [00:38:11] There are so many brilliant minds out there that have so much to teach us on how to be mentally healthy. I believe in Noah Rochetta and secular Buddhism. I believe in the principles of Buddhism, not as a religion, but as a, as sort of a pathway towards mental health and healing. Kind of a structure for mental health

John Dehlin [00:38:28] health in our lives.

John Dehlin [00:38:29] I believe in a lot of stuff and I think we would do better to not just have people give speeches about interesting things, but to consider the collective development of a set of content that we could explore and learn together to make our lives better. Imagine if seminary or Sunday school or elders quorum or relief society or high priest group was actually content. That was useful. And you spent three to five hours a week for your entire lives learning true, healthy, effective principles to govern your life with people that you loved, who you trusted. Imagine what that would do to you and to your children, right? And to generations to come. I don't know that we necessarily need

John Dehlin [00:39:14] to shed that model. Maybe we don't do it on Sunday,

John Dehlin [00:39:17] maybe do it in small groups. But I don't think we should let go of that idea of there being people who have thought a lot about things that they have things to share with us.

Guest 2 [00:39:26] Us.

John Dehlin [00:39:28] I've already talked about the importance of women. Women are amazing leaders. Final few points. True friends are rare but precious. There's a lot of people that will say to you, you mean so much to me. Thank you for all you've done. I'll be there for you. And the truth is, very few people will go the distance with you. So if you have someone in your life that's a true friend, cherish them, because they're rare and they're very precious.

John Dehlin [00:39:58] Boundaries are essential to personal health, and

John Dehlin [00:40:01] sometimes you have to cut people out of your life completely.

John Dehlin [00:40:04] And I'm of all people, someone who never wants to have someone missing at

John Dehlin [00:40:08] the table, who wants to think that everyone can get along. And I've learned through sad experience that there are some people that are just toxic for you in your life. And so healthy boundaries sometimes enable you to preserve mental health. And unfortunately, sometimes that applies to family. And so don't be afraid to put up boundaries.

John Dehlin [00:40:31] Obviously, I believe that community is worth fighting for.

John Dehlin [00:40:34] I've tried to make that point here today. I'm just going to leave it again. Please consider community as a core value. We're social animals. A lone monkey is a dead monkey, as they say. And we're not islands. And so don't give up on community. I think that's one of the precious things that we should preserve.

John Dehlin [00:40:56] If I had to distill the greatest

John Dehlin [00:40:58] gifts of a religious transition, for me, it's that I'm living a life that I feel is more grounded in reality. I'm more connected to myself now than I've ever been. Even though I have a long way to go, I have deeper connections with others around me. I've lost friends, I've lost family members in this transition. But the deeper, more intimate friendships and family relationships that I've gained make it not even a contest Wouldn't regret it for a second. Those people who you lose were probably never really friends or family to begin with. And the ones that you gain can be. Be the most cherished relationships you ever have. So if I had to sort of give. The most important lesson I've learned of

John Dehlin [00:41:43] all through my journey is that emotional

John Dehlin [00:41:46] intimacy literacy is crucial. We don't understand what it means to have emotional intimacy with other people. And I learned this through some very challenging experiences with my own immediate family,

John Dehlin [00:41:59] stemming back from things that.

John Dehlin [00:42:01] That happened all throughout my life. And I just want to say that.

John Dehlin [00:42:05] Learn how to love, and there are steps and there are ways to learn

John Dehlin [00:42:09] how to have emotional intimacy. There are rules and guidelines for it.

John Dehlin [00:42:13] And once you have it, it is the most plain and precious thing you ever experience. It's like that fruit on the tree that Lehigh tasted. It is something so sweet and precious, you will. You will immediately want to share it with everyone around you. Emotional intimacy, figure out how to get it. Find someone who understands it.

John Dehlin [00:42:31] If you don't learn about it and

John Dehlin [00:42:33] obtain it with your spouse, with your partner, with your children, with your friends,

John Dehlin [00:42:38] it makes all the difference.

John Dehlin [00:42:41] And that leads me to this point

John Dehlin [00:42:44] that I think personally is probably the most significant. This is really personal. And I've talked about this in different ways before, but I'll just say this.

John Dehlin [00:42:54] It is possible to have an amazing

John Dehlin [00:42:58] family, and simultaneously to not see is absolutely possible.

John Dehlin [00:43:06] To think, to be completely convinced in your mind that you and your partner

John Dehlin [00:43:11] would be better off without each other, that your family just isn't doing very well, that things aren't healthy, and that it would all be better off if it broke up. And I will say right now, there is such a good thing as a healthy, good divorce. I believe in that. And so in no way do I say every marriage should be preserved and every family should remain intact. But what I am saying is I stand before you as a solemn witness that you can have that perspective about your family, that. That your relationship with your partner is beyond hope, that you're sad and miserable,

John Dehlin [00:43:49] and that there's no way to have joy and meaning and fulfillment with this person. And it often comes in sort of

John Dehlin [00:43:54] the form of a midlife crisis.

John Dehlin [00:43:56] And you can even start looking at

John Dehlin [00:43:57] your family and just say, you know, we'd probably be better off maybe if we weren't even together, and to be completely and totally wrong. And I just tell you today that family is worth fighting for. And again, that doesn't mean that all families should stay together. Not all families should stay together. But families are worth fighting for. And even if families split up, they're worth fighting for. There are going to be some family members that sometimes are toxic for you, and sometimes you do have to create that boundary, and that can be healthy, too. But I just want to tell my family that I love you guys and all of our time together has been incredibly powerful for me. But especially the past four or five years where we've been through some really hard things and found a way to not give up and to struggle through, it has been the single most meaningful and important experience of my life. And I love you guys and I thank you for going through that journey with me. So thank you. I love you guys. So I want to end by just giving a huge thanks to Cache Valley and Cache Valley Oasis for the fun and friendship over the past 13 years. I can't believe it's been 13 years, but it's been 13 years. We're not going far away. We're just going about an hour and a half south. I hope to come up. I want to do some tailgating. I want to have some karaoke parties. I'm happy to if I can ever help. Cache Valley Oasis, I hope you'll reach out to me and I hope, most importantly, that the friendships that we've made here will endure. So sorry for going so long, but thank you so much for listening. Stay in touch and please keep the fire alive in your hearts and in your families and in your community. That's it. Thank

Guest 2 [00:45:51] you.

Guest [00:46:08] Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org music for this episode was provided by the Lower Lights and other sources.

Guest 2 [00:46:23] Cease to make me whole when with a wounded heart, anger or malice I draw my myself apart Searching my soul.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.