Utah's HIV Awareness Condom Campaign Halted

Sampson Utley [00:00:00] Sa.

John Dehlin [00:00:25] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. This is a sort of flash news, kind of a news breaking story. It's going to be brief, but it's an important story and it's interesting. And it kind of fell in my lap this morning.

John Dehlin [00:00:43] So we're running with it for those who don't know. And I'll go ahead and share the screen. Just in the past day or two, Utah came out with what I thought was a brilliant and fully approved campaign to help not only spread awareness about the HIV AIDS situation in Utah, but also to promote safe sex and use of condoms, et cetera. And so what you'll see here on the Salt Lake Tribune website, published 21 hours ago, is the headline utah Governor stops distribution of Risque State themed condoms created to raise Awareness of hiv.

John Dehlin [00:01:34] And if you look more closely, it's got a picture of the condoms and the packaging for the condoms that has been released. And I'm just going to read, for those of you who are listening, I'm going to go and read the text on the condoms. For those of you who are on the condom packaging. And for those of you who are just listening, you'll just have to imagine. And I'm going to just read.

John Dehlin [00:02:04] So first of all, there's 11 condoms that are, that are shaped in the picture in the shape of Utah, which I think is very clever. And I'm going to read to you the text of each condom package really quick.

John Dehlin [00:02:20] So at the top you've got a picture of a bear whose rear end is pointed towards the camera or towards the viewer. And it says don't go bare. So that's the first one. The second one says Greatest sex on Earth and it's got a skier who's skiing. I guess that's a playoff of Utah's campaign. The Greatest snow on Earth or Greatest show on Earth or Snow on Earth.

John Dehlin [00:02:48] The third package says explore Utah's caves. And it's got a like a cave dweller with a flashlight looking into a cave. The fourth package says SL comma, UT. So it's basically Salt Lake, UT acronyms or abbreviations which then of course spells out the word slut.

John Dehlin [00:03:11] The fifth says this is the place, obviously a reference to Brigham Young's this is the Place statement. And it's got a bed on the photo. The sixth, which I think is one of the most controversial, it's got like a road sign that is telling you two cities that are coming up. And the two cities are Fillmore and Beaver.

John Dehlin [00:03:40] And it has the number 6 as if Fillmore 6 miles away and then 9 as if Beaver's 9 miles away. And then it, I guess those two numbers combined to the number 69. Those of you at home who don't know what that means can look that up if you want.

John Dehlin [00:03:57] The seventh condom package says a diagnosis doesn't define you and it then has a reference to a website, HIV and me.com the 8th says enjoy your mountain and it has the picture of two mountains and mountain has kind of a little apostrophe at the end, so obviously a double meaning there.

John Dehlin [00:04:25] And then let's see, 6, 7, 8. The ninth one says uinta sex, referencing the Uinta mountain range. The 10th says toss the jello salad and it has a picture of a jello mold. And I know that that's some double entendre or sexual reference and I've actually just forgotten what that means. So I'll have my guest remind me what tossing the salad means.

John Dehlin [00:04:57] And then the last one has a picture of delicate arch and it says put your arch into it. So the reason why this is a new story and why it's semi controversial is because even though, as I understand, this campaign was vetted and approved by the state of Utah, Governor Gary Herbert has, according to the Salt Lake Tribune article, ordered state health officials to stop distributing the condoms and has basically said, you know, that basically the governor understands the importance of the Utah Department of Health conducting a campaign to educate Utahans about HIV prevention. He does not, however, approve the use of sexual in innuendo as part of a taxpayer funded campaign.

John Dehlin [00:05:50] And our office has asked the department to rework the campaign's branding. So for today's just quick little mini news breaking story episode, we have Sampson Utley on the line who is a friend of a family that I love, the Utley family. But also he's a volunteer on this campaign and he has kind of an insider view on what's going on and what's happening and kind of what his strong feelings about it and what he would like to see.

John Dehlin [00:06:20] Of course, we're joined by our Facebook Live listeners. So any listeners or viewers who have questions who want to ask questions or share opinions, we'd love to include those if we can. But without any further ado, Sam Sinutley, welcome to Mormon Stories Podcast.

Guests Introduce Their HIV Prevention Work

Sampson Utley [00:06:37] Hi John. I am so grateful for this opportunity. Thank you for getting us in on such short notice. It's kind of a very recent breaking story, so I'm glad to be able to spread the word as quickly as we have been Able to.

John Dehlin [00:06:48] My pleasure. So really quickly, do you have, is there anything you want to share about your personal interest in this story and why you care so deeply about it?

Sampson Utley [00:06:56] Yes. So I grew up in Alpine. I was born and raised in Utah. And part of, you know, what I feel about the state is that I would like to leave the state in better hands and in a better situation than I founded it. You know, with a sex education in Utah. It's not very comprehensive. It's pretty much, you know, abstinence only teaching. And the issue with that is that it kind of promotes a culture of shame. And it's not very comprehensive. It's not very culturally competent because whether you say that people should or shouldn't be doing it, they're going to be doing it anyway, right? So I figure, you know, we might as well get the resources out and have people be able to use them and practice safer sex and reduce the transmission of sexually transmitted infections as well as hiv.

John Dehlin [00:07:51] I love it. Okay, so tell us how you got involved in this campaign and what your role has been.

Sampson Utley [00:07:57] Well, I actually got involved with the state commissioned HIV planning committee with my partner Michael Sanders here. And really the whole purpose of this campaign is to spread awareness and to kind of have this great tongue in cheek reference to get someone to say, oh, you know, what's that? Pick it up and see, you know, the website HIV and me.com and to visit that website and be able to see the great information that we have compiled and to kind of come to a greater understanding of the information that we have about the HIV of today and how different that is from the HIV of five years ago, 10 years ago, 20 years ago, and hopefully reduce some of the stigma and the judgment around that.

John Dehlin [00:08:48] So can you tell us just about some of the statistics of HIV in Utah, if you happen to know them?

Sampson Utley [00:08:55] Right. Well, I think perhaps the most startling one is right on the front page of that website. Every three days a new Utahn is diagnosed with hiv. It's not something that people want to talk about or acknowledge a lot of the time because, you know, the imagery that we all have of AIDS and HIV is, it's a tough one. It's very difficult. We're at a very interesting point in history where we have, you know, HIV of yesterday and now we're kind of trying to transition into the HIV of tomorrow. But it is something that, you know, we definitely need to be talking about. It's something that doesn't have to be scary, it doesn't have to be riddled with Judgment. And I think that the more we talk about it, again, we're going to reduce the stigma, and that's how we reduce new transmissions.

Campaign Approval Process and Controversy

John Dehlin [00:09:44] So I would assume that this wouldn't have been released if it hadn't of, you know, gone through the proper channels through the state of Utah. So can you talk about that? Like, who was involved in creating it, who was involved in producing it and approving it, and then how did it all of a sudden get pulled back if it was approved?

Sampson Utley [00:10:10] Right. So the planning committee is actually comprised of some absolutely wonderful healthcare providers, you know, influencers in the community, volunteers, and, you know, this great group of people that are, you know, kind of trying to get together and find effective ways to reduce the spread of hiv. Of course.

Sampson Utley [00:10:34] So through the channels, we kind of, you know, presented a couple different campaigns. We partnered with Love Communications, who is a fantastic publicity machine here in Salt Lake, and we put together, or they put together, I should say, what I think is a really great campaign. Right. You know, it's been in the works for about a year. And with that came, of course, the condoms that we have or that have been brought into question.

Sampson Utley [00:11:01] And, you know, some of them were approved, some of them were modified. We tried to keep it fun and exciting and something that somebody is, you know, kind of gonna laugh at and, you know, get a good chuckle out of it and then pick it up. That was the whole idea of it.

John Dehlin [00:11:17] So you were involved in the designing of the. Of the packages?

Sampson Utley [00:11:20] Well, Love Communications did a lot of that. You know, some of the meetings that we would go to, we would go over some of the ideas. You know, some of the meetings that we were at, we would kind of throw out taglines. We would just brainstorm. And then we gave the phrases themselves to Love Communication. I mean, there's some really popular ones, too. Like, for instance, this Salt Lake, Utah one. I mean, there's lots and lots of branded merchandise that you can get all over the city with that. Right. And so that was one of the ones that they pulled just from something.

John Dehlin [00:11:50] And you've probably already said this, but again, how did you. What group were you a part of such that you got included in this process?

Sampson Utley [00:11:58] Well, my partner, Michael Sanders, is actually a very big community, community member and influencer, and so kind of dragging on the coattails. And, you know, it's always been something that I have wanted to get involved with, and just being able to get my foot in the door there was kind of how I got involved.

John Dehlin [00:12:19] Okay. And then. Are you able to say anything about who or what organization from the state was involved in the designing of the packaging and the approval of the packaging?

Sampson Utley [00:12:32] Right. Well, because we turned all of that over to Love Communications. Aside from the brainstorming that we did, most of that was just through them. And one of the biggest talking points about why people don't want these or why the governor's office doesn't want these condoms to be approved and to be out is because they say, you know, it's an inappropriate use of Utah taxpayers money. And the truth of it is that we're not using any of Utah taxpayers money. All of this funding is coming from the cdc, which is a federal funding, and the Ryan White program, which is another really great program that aims to put money in places to reduce HIV and to help people that are living with hiv.

John Dehlin [00:13:19] And also. And you've already touched on this, but just in my mind, I want to reiterate it. If you want, if any tax funding or federal funding or any funding is going to go towards a marketing or promotional campaign or an education campaign or a safety campaign, you want the campaign to be as effective as possible.

John Dehlin [00:13:42] And so what I hear you saying is, and I'm just repeating it, that if the campaign is a little bit controversial, a little bit catchy, if it creates buzz, even if it's a little bit controversial, and bonus, that it's sex positive, then more people are going to know about it, more people are going to talk about it, the word's going to spread, and you're going to be more effective at both educating people and preventing the, you know, the diseases that you're trying to prevent. Is that kind of the logic behind the edgy, cheeky, controversial nature of it all?

Sampson Utley [00:14:17] Exactly right. I mean, even from what we've seen already, it's been really wonderful to see the community kind of coming together and rallying and creating this buzz just to kind of spread it larger than we actually thought it would. We initially made a press release about a week ago about this campaign, and we tried to offer it up to a couple different places and it just wasn't really getting a lot of bites. And then now, because of the governor's actions to try to get this campaign, you know, off the billboards, taking down the website, getting rid of the condoms. It has sparked a lot of outrage, excuse me, and rightfully so. And that action has provided us with more news coverage, more awareness, more spreading the word than we really could have ever done ourselves. So in that regard, it's really wonderful.

John Dehlin [00:15:07] But even if the governor hadn't have opposed it and objected. I was seeing this photo be passed around on Reddit and on Facebook just because people thought it was awesome and really interesting and kind of cool that Utah would promote kind of such an edgy kind of campaign. So, yes, the governor, you know, triggered the Streisand effect, where his attempt to ban something actually made it increased awareness of it. But with even without the governor having done that, what I'm saying is the edgy, sort of controversial nature of the condom packaging was having the desired effect in the sense that in my circles, people really spreading it around and sharing the image and making jokes about it, etc.

Sampson Utley [00:15:52] Absolutely. I mean, I can't even tell you the number of messages that we are getting saying, where can I get a set? How can I get a set? Can I, you know, can I pay for it? Can I make a donation to the Utah AIDS Foundation? What can I do to get my hands on a set? I want to frame it. I want to have it on my wall. So in that regard, I think that they're really doing their job. Right? I mean, they're wonderful, they're very catchy, they're funny, they're edgy, they're tongue in cheek. I think they're wonderful.

John Dehlin [00:16:20] And so. And my understanding is that other states have done similar, you know, campaigns in this regard. And so we're sort of following, you know, following the lead of a couple other states that have probably found something like this works. Is that right?

Sampson Utley [00:16:35] Exactly right. And so Wyoming has done a very successful campaign like this. Alaska has done a very successful campaign like this. Both, you know, pretty thought of typically conservative states. And with the numbers that we've been looking at, Utah is a very, very quickly growing state. Right. And so for the amount of population that's coming into Utah versus the percentage of new HIV infections that we are getting, it's actually a very good number. Right. I mean, it's still very, very slightly going up because just of such a mass population influx to Utah. But if we're looking at it big picture, it is going down, which is great. And we want to, you know, keep that up. And that's really the intention of this campaign.

John Dehlin [00:17:17] Okay, so Love Communication. You worked with Love Communications along with others. Do we know who Love Communications worked with to get this approved? Because I'm sure at some point some government official in the state of Utah had to approve this, correct?

Sampson Utley [00:17:33] Right. Yes, it did go up the chain with the Department of Health.

John Dehlin [00:17:36] And so at some point the Department of Health approved this. Right?

Sampson Utley [00:17:39] Right. Yes. And Like I said, there was a process where, you know, we kind of approved some of them. Some of them had to kind of go back and be modified a little bit to make it not offensive, because, of course, that was not the goal of any of this. Right. It was just kind of supposed to be a chuckle, a laugh, and certainly not offending anybody.

John Dehlin [00:18:01] So it's likely that this was never run by Governor Herbert, is that right? It was probably just approved a couple levels down from him and such. He didn't actually know about it. Is that probably fair to say?

Sampson Utley [00:18:14] Right. I mean, of course, I don't know all the ins and outs of that specific approval process at that level, but I would say that that is a possibility.

John Dehlin [00:18:21] Okay. So obviously, word starts spreading once this campaign's released, and Governor Herbert probably gets a lot of complaints from active, devout Mormons. And then he calls for. What does he call for? What does he basically say?

Sampson Utley [00:18:38] It's a cease and desist. So, you know, he wanted no more condoms distributed. His goal was to potentially take the website down. There is some employees whose jobs are on the line at the Health Department, which I think is very unfair, because they were just doing their best. They were doing their job, and you know what they were trying to promote. And specifically with infectious disease, they were just doing what they were supposed to be doing. Right.

John Dehlin [00:19:09] Did I hear someone say that someone has been fired for this?

Sampson Utley [00:19:12] Yes, this morning it sounds like one of our great Health Department employees has been fired. So we're unhappy about that. And, of course, trying to do everything that we can to spread awareness about that and get, hopefully, their job back. I'm not really sure what the next step is there, but I don't feel it to be appropriate in any way.

John Dehlin [00:19:33] Okay. And so. And so now I guess we're left with kind of the situation. What are you calling on, people? Well, first of all, many people are asking where they can get these. Can anybody who wants to get these get them right now or not?

Sampson Utley [00:19:52] Not right now. So we got one crate of them from the Health Department, and we distributed them in a couple bars. We tried to send them up to Utah State University, up to some LGBTQ resource centers. We dropped them in a couple bars around town, but we were a little bit hesitant about it because the actual website on the back, which of course was the whole purpose of this campaign, didn't launch until Monday. And so we weren't able to get the whole crate out, obviously, because it's only Thursday today.

Sampson Utley [00:20:25] And so right now we're kind of stopping, you know, by the governor's wishes to not disperse these anymore. So we have some. We're not giving them out right now. We're not quite sure what to do with them. My fear is that all of this work and all of this money that we've put into this for a really great program that has a great message and that I feel can help a lot of people is just going to be dumped in the trash.

John Dehlin [00:20:49] And so what are you calling on people to do to try and make things better? I mean, my sense is that the governor said, pause this, don't distribute. We'll rework the packaging and distribute some packaging that's not offensive to Utahns or to, you know, conservative Utah Mormons, basically.

Sampson Utley [00:21:11] Right. Well, the hard thing with that and in the government, the governor's statement which you read stating that he is, you know, very concerned about this, that's kind of a hard one for me. And of course I want to try to keep this whole thing positive because ultimately the outcome of this would be to reduce hiv. And I don't want to, you know, call anybody out or anything, but I will say the state of Utah currently provides $0 for HIV prevention. In the state of Utah, everything that we have to do for our committee and for our work is a very, very big push. Trying to get federal funding from the cdc, you know, reaching out and networking with the Ryan White Foundation.

Sampson Utley [00:21:50] Those are the two sources of funding for this. And what we're trying to do to rally the community is, you know, share it on Facebook, talk about it with your friends, call Governor Herbert's office. I have that posted on, on my Facebook. A couple other people have had that posted on their Facebook as well. Of course, you can just Google it. Send him an email, give him a call and let him know what you think, the actions towards this campaign.

John Dehlin [00:22:17] So you're calling on people to email or call Governor Gary Herbert's office and express their feelings about the importance of this campaign and that they not cease and desist and cancel it, Is that right?

Sampson Utley [00:22:30] Exactly right.

John Dehlin [00:22:32] Do you happen to have Governor Gary Herbert's email address or phone number?

Sampson Utley [00:22:35] I don't. I did have it posted on Facebook. If you just Google office of Gary Governor Herbert, it pops up. I believe it's 801-538-1000. Don't quote me on that. But I, I believe out of my short term memory, that's what it was for.

John Dehlin [00:22:49] The phone number, I pulled it up here. His phone number is 801-538-1000. It doesn't have an email address for him that I can see. There is a. There is a mailing address, which is 350 North State Street, Suite 200, P.O. box 142220, Salt Lake City, Utah, 841-142-2020. So I'll paste that in the comments of this, of this stream. And if somebody can Google and find an email address really quick for the governor, it might be more efficient to be able to email him versus needing to make a phone call or write letters.

Sampson Utley [00:23:38] Right, Right.

John Dehlin [00:23:40] So I guess there's a. I guess there's a Mormon angle to this, which is that traditionally Mormons are afraid to talk about sex. They don't even like to use the word sex. And there's a lot of sex negative messaging in Mormonism where it's all about sort of. There's an element of procreation to it, but otherwise it's about shame and, and prohibitions and stigma and stuff.

John Dehlin [00:24:07] And we've had. I want to refer people to past Mormon stories episodes where we've had Natasha Alford Parker, a Mormon and a licensed sex therapist, talk about how sex negativity is actually counterproductive to the goals of the church. In other words, if you want educated youth and adults, if you want to reduce the sorts of sexual behaviors the Church doesn't want, and if you want to reduce teen pregnancy, unwanted pregnancy, and if you want to even reduce the transmission of STIs, the solution to that is not sex negativity. The solution to that is not staying silent about sex and sexual education. But what they found is education for youth and adults around sexuality and healthy discourse and sex positivity actually leads to a decrease in unwanted sexual behavior and a decrease in the transmission of STIs and unwanted pregnancies.

John Dehlin [00:25:03] So the best thing the Church can do for its own goals and interests is to be sex positive. Do you have anything you want to add to that?

Abstinence Education and the Case for PrEP

Sampson Utley [00:25:11] Absolutely. No. I completely support all of that. It really does come back down to the, you know, abstinence only sex education that is kind of taught all throughout the state. And then we wonder why we're, you know, banging our heads against the wall and being like, you know, why are our youth or our at risk populations experiencing all of these negative side effects or, you know, STIs, unplanned pregnancies. And that's really the reason. Right. Is because we're not teaching sex positive education.

John Dehlin [00:25:43] And my understanding is that STI rates sexually transmitted, you know, diseases or infections, and teenage pregnancy rates are all super high in Utah. Is that your understanding as well?

Sampson Utley [00:25:56] Yes. I mean, I don't have the numbers right in front of me, of course, but I mean, I have definitely, you know, heard about this as well, as opposed to other states that are around us that do, you know, different sex education.

John Dehlin [00:26:09] Yeah, yeah. And once again, if Utah is not funding this campaign, how can Governor Herbert stop it?

Sampson Utley [00:26:18] So the idea, and what I've heard is that federal funding comes obviously from the federal government, but it is up to the discretion of the governor's office to kind of choose where to put that. And so I do think that he would be able to completely shut this campaign down if he, you know, felt so inclined to do so. So that's why the big message right now is to rally everybody and invite Governor Herbert to kind of take a step back and say, you know, putting all things aside, do you want people offended or do you want people living with HIV or worse? Right. I mean, without linkage to care, HIV does turn into aids and people do pass away from it.

Sampson Utley [00:27:03] I mean, now we have incredible medications. We have what's called PrEP, which is pre exposure prophylaxis. And we also have Pep, which is post exposure. And the idea is that with prep, you take one pill once a day.

Sampson Utley [00:27:20] Right? Now the leading brand of that is called Descovy. We actually just switched over to that this year, right at the beginning. It used to be called Truvada. It's basically the same drug, but just a little bit safer.

Sampson Utley [00:27:32] And by taking one pill once a day, you pretty much eliminate all chance of seroconverting and becoming HIV positive with or without condom usage. It's actually more effective than condoms to take prep than it is to just use a condom.

John Dehlin [00:27:48] That's pretty remarkable, isn't is?

Sampson Utley [00:27:50] It's amazing. I mean, you know, I meet a lot of people that lived through the height of the epidemic all over the world, right? And so many of them express having the same feeling of, oh, if there was just a pill. Oh, if there was just, you know, a cure for this terrible virus as we're watching all of our friends die in our arms. And guess what? Now there's a pill. Now there's, you know, there's medication for before if you seroconvert and to keep you from seroconverting. And there is also medication if you do become HIV positive, where it doesn't have to be a death sentence anymore. Lots of people live with HIV long and healthy and productive lives, but it's

John Dehlin [00:28:34] still better to never Contract it in the first place.

Sampson Utley [00:28:37] Of course. Right. That's the hope.

Final Thoughts and Closing

John Dehlin [00:28:40] All right, Sampson, anything else you want to share before we sign off?

Sampson Utley [00:28:45] Really? I was just reading one of my favorite artists. It's actually on this shirt. It's a man named Keith Haring. He was an artist really through the eighties in New York City. And one of my favorite quotes by him is, art means nothing if it doesn't reach every segment of the. The people. And I think that really applies here with, you know, this branding and these condoms and the billboards and the imagery and the websites. We have to get it to every segment of the people, otherwise it means nothing. And funny. Well, I guess not funny enough, but Keith Haring actually did pass away in 1990 from AIDS related complications, which to me makes that message even more poignant and relevant about his life and the art that he created and what we need to do to honor that legacy and to continue to prevent this virus from spreading.

John Dehlin [00:29:43] If a believing Mormon is listening, and in their mind they're thinking, you know what? Like, I don't totally approve of the lgbt. They would say the LGBTQ lifestyle or the gay lifestyle. This isn't my battle. And if maybe even subconsciously, they're thinking, and you know what? They're not living God's commandments anyway. And so I don't have any personal interest or passion about this because these people are living counter to my church's teachings. Do you have an argument or a plea to those people that might be effective or that might reach them when they otherwise might not be super interested?

Sampson Utley [00:30:28] You know, I thought a lot about this, and obviously there's number one, which is Jesus Christ taught love. Not conditional love, not love for only who you want to love, but just pure love to everybody, to all of our fellow human beings on this planet. Right? Especially the ones who need it the most. Who, you know, in teachings were the lepers, the afflicted, the sick.

Sampson Utley [00:30:57] And in today's terms, I would, you know, argue to say that that is, you know, these groups of people, the HIV positive or other marginalized communities that are struggling with health care in general. And I would say just love, right? I mean, what's it gonna cost you? Love is free. Kindness is free. Compassion is free.

Sampson Utley [00:31:23] And it's really up to us as the human people to promote that and to afford that to each other and to afford the kindnesses to others that we would wish afforded to us if the roles were reversed. And the second thing that I would say would be, even if you don't approve of this lifestyle. Even if you don't feel like it's your fight, almost everybody at one point or another is going to have to know and love somebody who is gay. Right.

Sampson Utley [00:31:56] And if not for you, for them, just please have compassion. Right. You might not understand it. You might not be able to fully comprehend it, but I think that the more love that you put out into the world, the more is going to come back to you.

John Dehlin [00:32:24] Yes, all that. And it's also true that HIV is not just LGBT sort of health concern. Is that also true?

Sampson Utley [00:32:34] Oh, absolutely. No. There's. Again, HIV is not exclusively an LGBT issue. Injection drug users are at very high risk, especially.

John Dehlin [00:32:44] And Utah has an opiate problem, right?

Sampson Utley [00:32:47] Yes, absolutely. Utah is actually a leader in the opiate crisis, which is kind of scary when you're talking about, you know, this kind of infection just because it can spread so easily from blood to blood. And I would say educate yourself. Right? First of all, there's no need to be afraid of the things that you don't need to be afraid of. You can't transmit HIV through your spit. You can't transmit HIV through touching a doorknob that somebody else touched that was positive. You can't transmit HIV from shaking hands with somebody or from kissing somebody or from hugging somebody. And those are the people that typically need that affection the most. So just educate yourself. Don't be afraid of things that you don't need to be afraid of, and understand how this virus actually does spread.

John Dehlin [00:33:37] I love it. Cynthia is gracious enough to share with us how to contact Governor Herbert through electronic technology. She says that he doesn't share his email address, but here's a link. Governor.utah.gov contact if you want to fill out a form to contact Governor Herbert, that's a way that you can reach him. So thanks to all our listeners for tuning in and commenting. There's a few people making jokes about other terms that could be put on condom packaging, and that's always kind of fun. But mostly, Sampson, I just want to thank you for coming on Mormon Stories podcast, for making me and others more aware of this issue. And, you know, I know your parents, and I'm sure they're super proud of you.

Sampson Utley [00:34:38] Well, of course. And right back at you. Thank you so much for the work that you do and for being a champion for both the LGBT community and just the Utah community as a whole.

John Dehlin [00:34:51] My pleasure. All right, Sampson, you take care and stay in touch, will you?

Sampson Utley [00:34:56] Of course. You as well. Thank you so much. Pass my love along to your family.

John Dehlin [00:35:00] Okay. And to yours. All right, that's Sampson Utley, everybody. And thanks for joining us on Mormon Stories. We'll get this episode out today, hopefully, and we'll see you guys again soon for another episode of Mormon Stories. Take care, everybody. Thanks.

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