Join us as we interview New Zealander Dr. Nathan McCluskey. Among the topics we discuss will include Nathan’s upbringing as a Mormon in New Zealand, how his Mormon faith has changed/progressed over his lifetime, how he and Dr. Gina Colvin manage their mixed-faith marriage, and his reactions to Gina’s recent disciplinary council, which resulted in a “No Action” decision.

Dr. Gina Colvin’s pre-disciplinary council interview may be found here.

Part 1 – Growing up as a Mormon in New Zealand:

Part 2 – The intersection of he and his wife’s differing experiences in Mormonism:

Part 3: How Gina’s faith transition impacted him:

Part 4: Nathan and Gina discuss her disciplinary council:

Part 1

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Part 2

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Part 3

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Part 4

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  1. Maggie Rayner January 1, 2019 at 3:34 am - Reply

    I’m pleased Gina refused to be spiritually beaten down by Mormon Church leaders and TBM husband Nathan. (Nathan’s courtship of Gina raised red flags about his nature.) I am amazed, with a one-year-old baby of her own, that Gina agreed to take Nathan’s niece’s baby into their home, and shortly after, four young abused children of Nathan’s nephew. I am surprised that Nathan chose to carry on giving the same amount of time and service to the church as he had before, rather than prioritizing Gina’s needs, and the needs of the five preschoolers from his family that he brought into their home .

  2. Rob McKay January 1, 2019 at 4:26 pm - Reply

    New Zealand was colonised by the British and Nathan was correct to identify the Land Wars of the 1860’s as causing ill feeling among Maori against Pakeha and British based Xnty (Anglicanism in particular). In the late 19th century Mormonism was more acceptable to Maori because it came from America and not from Britain. Also Mormonism came among Maori at the right time (1881), after the Treaty of Waitangi (1814), after the musket wars of the 1820’s and post Land Wars of the 1860’s. In that late period Maori were seen as a dying race but Mormonism came to Maori with a message of hope informing us that we as Maori are of the House of Israel. As a result many Maori came into the Mormon Church. I thank Nathan for also mentioning how in modern times there has been since an exodus of Maori leaving the Mormon Church partly due to the decision made by Loren C. Dunn who ruled out Maori language from the Mormon Church in order to attract more Pakeha (white people) into the Church.

    • Maggie Rayner January 3, 2019 at 9:51 pm - Reply

      I knew nothing about this and find it fascinating. Thank you for setting it out. Equally appreciated is Gina and Nathan telling the “other side of the story” re 911 and other world situations they have a different experience of than the US spin. A wake-up call.

  3. Garth January 2, 2019 at 12:52 am - Reply

    Nathan, Gina, and John,
    A wonderful 4- hour workshop on “How to have healthy dialogue in a mixed-faith marriage.”
    Thank you! It was worth every minute!

  4. Joy January 2, 2019 at 8:16 am - Reply

    Fascinating discussion and so inspiring to others of us in mixed-faith marriages. Gina and Nathan brilliantly represented the often troublesome dance of the Divine Feminine and Divine Masculine. Their exchange on this podcast seems almost emblematic of the tension and beautiful potential in the greater, human female/male conversation.

  5. Glen January 3, 2019 at 12:42 pm - Reply

    My overwhelming response to this journey of Nathan and Gina’s is AROHANUI.

    I personally have enjoyed much love from close associations my family has had over the last century with New Zealand. I was thrilled to hear the outcome of the ‘meeting’ and love the arohanui support from the podcast community in the spirit of helping people navigate their own faith journey.

    Arohanui and Kia kaha i roto i to whakapono!

  6. Penni D Eads January 5, 2019 at 2:29 pm - Reply

    I learned Waddaly Atcha as a kid!

  7. Lisa January 5, 2019 at 7:30 pm - Reply

    Wow, I really enjoyed listening to the four hour podcast between Gina, Nathan and John.

    I cannot help but think about one psychological aspect of the situation. I am reminded about something my father-in-law use to say which is, “He who cares least, controls.” FIL was a master negotiator in his work and he used this advice in both his professional life and private life.

    Wiki: “The Principle of least interest is the idea in sociology that the person or group that has the least amount of interest in continuing a relationship has the most power over it. In the context of relationship dynamics, it suggests towards which party the balance of power tilts. The principle applies to personal, business, and other types of relationships where more than one party is involved.”

    Perhaps, the “s/he who cares least, controls” psychology behind Gina’s disciplinary hearing occurred at the point when she was decidedly not going to attend the “court.” We all know that mormons just hate to have their “authoritah” disrespected.

    Gina’s determination to not attend the court tilted her position of control to power. It is not that she did not care, but that she cared least. Clearly, there were several intermediary pre-negotiation activities which played into the eventual “no action” decision. I find it very interesting that the LDS leaders were essentially begging Gina to attend the court which indicates that they were caring more than Gina, and according to the maxim above, the LDS men had less control at this point.

    Many of us have followed the other podcaster’s disciplinary courts and were expecting similar outcome to what Jeremy, John, and most recently Bill experienced. It is impossible for me to measure or gauge each of these men’s degree of “caring” in their hearings, but they certainly put it all out there on the table and I would say that at the time they cared and valued their membership, which may have given the court more control. Jeremy shut down his court when he presented his letter of resignation which immediately shifted the power and control back to him. John and Bill were left to wait a few days for the final determination which kept the control and power in the LDS court.

    Certainly, I think we can all agree that the archaic LDS excommunication process is draconian, harsh, and repressive.

    I am pleased with the “no action” decision and send my congratulations to Gina and Nathan.

  8. Maggie Rayner January 6, 2019 at 12:32 am - Reply

    I like your analysis of this. (And loved, loved that Jeremy called a halt in his hearing involving 15 priesthood holders. He got exactly what and who he was dealing with after listening to them. I respect him immensely.) I’m also learning New Zealand is unique relative to North America and to falling down on their knees to Salt Lake in all things.

    A further thought occurred to me, however, re Gina’s meeting with her bishop (and her not meriting a hearing of 15 priesthood holders, as she is not considered equal to even a 12 year old male in the Mormon Church and after she and Nathan die, she will be only one wife among Nathan’s many.) After listening to both before and after interviews and about Nathan’s priesthood standing in his congregation, this seemed more about Gina being his naughty wife, and the mother to six priesthood holders or potential holders, and her bishop giving her a bit of a talking to. I see her being given a talking to as being about protecting Nathan’s entitlement.

    Gina was being Gina – who I admire immensely. (I believe, however, that the church has taken her for a ride in many ways, that her childhood set her up for this, and that Nathan has gotten the biggest piece of the chocolate bar from the very beginning of what he termed his “stalking of her” and dissuading her from what she wanted to do for herself.) As long as Gina agreed to certain conditions, which she did, keeping her in allows her to continue to provide a valuable earthly service as a wife and mother to priesthood holders. No more, no less in Mormondom.

    • Lisa January 6, 2019 at 8:13 pm - Reply

      Thank you Maggie for your additional insight. Yes, I was thinking similar thoughts but had not put words to the thinking yet.

      I wholeheartedly agree that Gina’s excommunication equation was a complex calculation. Yes, a naughty wife plus a respected TBM husband multiplied by additional future priesthood sons, dare not divide these connected relationships or cut eternal bonds. Yes, a disciplinary court had the potential to exponentially shatter this family’s future and ruin relationships if excommunicated. Yes, sum total is probably patriarchy in action still. Yes, certainly a profound multifactorial combination of known and unknown elements at play. Yes, disciplinary courts can be compared to “the black hole” of mormondom and I am very pleased that Gina escaped its gravitational grasp and that she can continue to pursue the light that feeds and fills her soul.

      Thank you Dr. Gina Colvin for taking a calculated risk and spreading a wide net of sincerity and love.

  9. Lori Maddox January 7, 2019 at 4:20 am - Reply

    The episodes with Gina and Nathan were wonderful. I greatly admire this couple. I don’t agree with some of Nathan’s views concerning the church, but respect him for sticking to his guns and trying to believe in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
    These interviews make me want to move to New Zealand. It sounds like a wonderful and welcoming place.
    Thanks for the episodes. Thank you most of all to Gina and Nathan. They sound like folks I’d like to meet and become friends with. I really don’t like many humans, so, that is saying something. Perhaps it’s living in Utah that makes me a bit antisocial.
    If I wasn’t working when most of the podcasts air, it would be great to watch them live. It might be interesting to participate in the discussions, although I’m not sure I would be able to add much.
    I’m looking forward to the next episodes, especially since I now seem to be caught up.

    Keep up the good work, John. Please get the Patreon going. It is much easier for me to donate there since I already am a member for several other folks on that platform

  10. David January 9, 2019 at 1:27 pm - Reply


  11. Voree Prophet January 10, 2019 at 1:00 pm - Reply

    I served a 2-year mission in NZ. My mission experience more closely resembled his description of Australia than his description of NZ. In fact his story about the Aussie comment on Americans happened to me hundreds of times in NZ. The people were plenty rude, especially the pakehas. I’m sure he’d like to think better of nz than Aus, but they are pretty similar.

    The issue isn’t that there are rude people in this or that country. In any country, mormon missionaries bring out the worst in people and make people want to be rude because we are annoying!

    (PS: loved nz, a truly fantastic and exceptional country, have been back since and will return).

  12. Jon Bischoff January 14, 2019 at 2:26 pm - Reply

    Growing up I always thought that science would more and more prove the BOM and church were true. I’m sad to say, just the opposite is happening. DNA, Book of Abraham, archaeological evidence. All is proving more and more that it isn’t true.

  13. Paul Innis January 20, 2019 at 6:48 pm - Reply

    Good to hear from someone who is active with their faith intact. I appreciate the mixed faith marriage angle as I am a stage 5 progressive married to a stage 3 TBM and this isn’t an easy path to navigate as a couple. Was, however, disappointed with the derogatory comments towards Australians. We are also a proud people who often punches above our weight on the world stage in many various endeavors.

  14. David Gilgen February 3, 2019 at 2:01 am - Reply

    Thank you Gina and Nathan. Appreciate the honesty. Well done. As students of history you will be well aware that the United States of America was built upon the genocide and land alienation of it’s indigenous people and forced settlement and slavery of Africans. This is reflected in the disciplinary structure of the Mormon ‘love’ courts. The ‘iron fist in a velvet glove’ brutality and implied celestial hostageship of your sealing by the ‘brethren’ is a repugnant, yet powerful lever. Membership is a choice and you have both thankfully moved the LDS red line for others. Good luck with the Church of England/Pihopatanga O Aotearoa and impending leadership of homeopathy proponent, Charlie Windsor. The pursuit of happiness is an inalienable right and you have obviously found a new pathway towards it. May your God(s) bless you both.

  15. Tezzy February 5, 2024 at 5:39 am - Reply

    The bigger the sinner, the more Jesus would invite them to join, and the LDS church I think forgets this, and it looks like the bishop with the help of Pete Cammock, who should be the prophet one day of the LDS church and stake president they learned this with the help of the spirit.

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