In part 8 of our series on spirituality and the rising LDS generation, we interview University of Utah student Ann Whittaker. In this interview Ann discusses many aspects of her faith, including her exploration of church history and feminism issues within Mormonism.
Episode Transcript
Host: John Dehlin · Guest: Ann Whittaker
This transcript is machine-generated and lightly edited for readability. The audio is authoritative. Please excuse occasional errors in names and spelling.
Introducing Ann Whittaker and Her Faith Journey
John Dehlin [00:00:01] What's your name?
Ann Whittaker [00:00:02] Ann Marie Whittaker.
John Dehlin [00:00:04] Ann Marie, tell us a bit about where you're from.
Ann Whittaker [00:00:08] I grew up in Sandy, Utah and lived in the same house my whole life until I got married, so didn't move around much. So that's kind of just basic where I'm from.
John Dehlin [00:00:21] And what are you doing right now?
Ann Whittaker [00:00:23] I'm going to school at the University of Utah, doing my undergraduate work in history.
John Dehlin [00:00:30] History. Fun. Well, let's start out by having you talk a little bit about your spiritual journey from, let's say, the teen years to now. If you had to sort of highlight what might have been unique about your journey, what would you mention?
Ann Whittaker [00:00:47] I think starting in my teen years, well, my whole growing up would consider myself very, very faithful. Whatever anybody told me questioning just didn't come up because what everybody told me was a really lovely story and I really liked it. And I did have lots of what I would say, spiritual experiences and witnesses that what I was hearing was true. And my mother is a very, very faithful person and so I think I take after her a lot. So throughout high school and all that, I just kind of the typical Utah Mormon experience seminary and all that. And then once I got into college, I started taking an institute class in church history. And the teacher I had really opened my eyes to what the church was and what it is and how it works. So along with that and then meeting friends in college who did question kind of opened up my faith experience to where I was questioning things. And I did have a couple moments of what you would call like faith crises. But always I think that strong foundation in faith is what keeps me in the church. And so though I question things now, I still do have a testimony of the church, a very strong testimony of. Of things that I believe to be core and central to the church. And also I think I just have a tendency to believe. I mean, I like fairy tales and I would like to believe that elves and hobbits are real and there is such a place as Middle Earth. So I tend to kind of have those faith belief leanings. And now I'm just getting those questions coming and I kind of have fun to answer, looking for answers.
John Dehlin [00:02:44] So is Gollum a good guy or a bad guy?
Ann Whittaker [00:02:47] Can't tell you. You have to figure that out for yourself.
John Dehlin [00:02:52] So what were some of the things that you read or learned in church history that you struggled with or had questions about or that caused you any dissonance that you might have felt?
Ann Whittaker [00:03:05] I think, of course, a big one now is things like Mountain Meadows Massacre. Just the basics, you know, blacks in the priesthood, women in the priesthood, and just kind of thinking, why, you know, why did those things have to work out in such a way that people were treated unfairly? Or so I guess, kind of this view of why can't everybody be treated fair and everybody be happy and why, you know, a church? The same questions that a lot of people have, pretty much of, why, if this church is God's church, why does he allow for these things to happen?
John Dehlin [00:03:47] And did you ever try and discuss the things you were struggling with, with leadership in Sunday school and Relief Society? What were your first attempts to try and explore these issues with friends or family?
Ann Whittaker [00:04:06] Well, I remember talking to my mom, first of all. And my mom was actually surprisingly very open to all of this and was excited to hear me when I came back from class to be like, mom, did you know this? Or, mom, what about this? And she was very supportive in that. And then she actually started taking the class with me. And I remember our first experience in Sunday school where a certain topic came up and I kind of elbowed my mom, like, mom, you should say something we had learned in class. And so she did. And I remember the teacher, he didn't outright say she was wrong, but he just kind of glossed over it and moved on. Didn't really acknowledge what she had said. I don't think he knew how to handle it, which may have been unfair on our part to even bring it up. So I think. And that's been my experience since if I ever do raise my hand and make a comment, in Sunday school, early society, that isn't the norm, I guess, or kind of what people. What you expect in a certain lesson that I get mixed. I don't want to say people are angry at me or think I'm trying to cause trouble, but I just think that people just aren't used to handling the situation and know how to talk about it. So it's usually just, thanks for your comment, moving on. And so it's not really acknowledged kind of a thing.
John Dehlin [00:05:34] Does that leave you feeling bad or do you understand or how do you feel after that type of experience?
Ann Whittaker [00:05:40] It depends on, I guess, kind of my emotional attachment to whatever topic. There's times where I feel bad that someone skipped over what I said, because to me, I feel, you know, for me, I feel like it's super important. And this could. This could change the way we live. This could change the way we treat other people. And so it's frustrating sometimes that people are so stuck in their Ways which has made me aware of being careful not to get stuck in my ways. So, anyway, there's times I felt bad and other times where I've been able to be more understanding. And it's always nice to be able to come home and talk to my husband where I can kind of get all that out, and then he listens to me and can validate me that sort of thing. So it goes either way.
Women's Issues in Mormon History and Doctrine
John Dehlin [00:06:31] So are there any topics within Mormon history or doctrine or culture that are of particular interest to you today? If so, what are they?
Ann Whittaker [00:06:41] Yes, obviously, because I'm a woman, women's issues in the church are very important to me. Also issues with marriage and how marriages work and that union and what it really is. And those are the things that most interest me today. And I also find are those very topics that if I comment on in church, usually are the ones I feel bad about if people don't acknowledge them or I actually had people say that I'm wrong on those. But I mean, so what are some
John Dehlin [00:07:16] of the questions you've had about or the concerns or feelings or thoughts you've had about women or what's been your experience? Has it been a positive one? Has it been mixed? Has it been negative? Are you happy with the status of women or your status within Mormonism, the culture or the church? You know, talk a little bit about that.
Ann Whittaker [00:07:37] I have mixed feelings with being a woman in the church. I definitely think that women aren't treated fairly. I've discussed a lot with friends, and we question why it is that women aren't in a role where they are making decisions right along with the men. That's a question to me. And I also, through experience, have been in situations with other church members that were very offensive with men, I would say, being sexually abusive, but because. And I think that's not just the church, but it's a society as a whole. But it's scary to me that it does exist in the church. And so that, you know, I always say sexism is alive and well, which is scary to me. And also just within marriage, how women are treated. And I think there have been tiny things. Like there seems to be somewhat of a movement towards bringing women into more of an equal standing. But I feel like it's not even close to what it needs to be. And I think. I don't know. That's what I think on that for now.
John Dehlin [00:09:03] So how do you cope with these feelings that you have? I mean. I mean, how do you stay at peace and maintain a healthy, productive church? Relationship, feeling these things.
Ann Whittaker [00:09:17] I think it makes a big difference for me to have a husband who is open to these sorts of things. I remember dating a guy in high school, and I brought up one of my questions concerning women in the church, and he got really angry at me and told me I should never discuss this sort of thing. So it's made a big difference, I think, for me to have to be married to someone who's very open to these things and very understanding and that I can talk to. And in fact, he does more studying about it on the topic than I do, just because he has more time. And so he gives me, you know, he'll review articles and things for me that I'm reading or books and we can talk about it. And it also makes. So that it makes me feel okay that here's someone else who's strong in the church who is also having the same things. And also we have a lot of friends who have these same questions, and we can meet together and kind of talk these things through. Though we might none of us ever really come up with solid answers, but just to be able to talk to other members of the church about these things helps.
John Dehlin [00:10:26] What are your sources for reading about women in the church and women's issues, yours or your husband's?
Ann Whittaker [00:10:33] There's lots. There's things within the church, things that have been written by church members. So even down to ensign articles that are pretty basic all the way to. There's a Methodist woman who we like to read, Margaret Barker, who speaks a lot to women's issues and especially Old Testament type things. So we read a lot of that. And recently we've been reading some of Margaret Toscano's things that she's written in the past. So just, I mean, we kind of. We get our sources from a variety of places.
Favorite Things, Pillars of Faith, and Community
John Dehlin [00:11:19] What are your favorite things about the church?
Ann Whittaker [00:11:22] I love. I think my most favorite thing about the church is the ritual and the temple ritual. I'm a person who loves tradition. I'm a person who loves the coming together of people. And so for me, the temple ritual is this really sacred thing that I love to take part in. And I love that coming together of people and that unity and that same goal of trying to regain the presence of God in our lives. And I do even down so even from the temple ritual, I do even love sort of the cheesy things of the church that have, in a sense, taken on ritual for me, things that happen in a young women's group, you know, like girls camp or something. Something that happens every year or every year you have the Christmas party. So I like that tradition and that ritual of the church.
John Dehlin [00:12:26] If. If you had to paint a picture, kind of like Martin Luther King taking us to the mountaintop, of what you would hope for for the church in the future, any progress or change or just a vision of how you see the church being at its finest, how would you paint that picture?
Ann Whittaker [00:12:51] I think it would be a church that was more open to discussion and more willing to let more opinions come in and out. And not that they have to adopt these opinions, but just I would like for the church to be able to create a space for people that they feel safe in expressing, you know, truly their heart's desires or their questions that they have. And just a place where people feel safe, where they feel welcome, where they feel they can be themselves, and no one's going to judge them on that. And that even if the questions people are having or the desires people are having, if they go against church doctrine, at least allowing people to have open discussion about these things. Because for me, in my questions in the church, that's been essential in that I have people close to me who I can talk to. And I think I would also along those lines, because I love ritual so much. I'd want the church to teach more in our Sunday school, in our sacrament meetings, to talk more about these rituals. And I'd like more history given for those. And I'd like to know why we have these rituals, why they are important in our lives today. And then along with that, my third thing I'll just say is just overall, just more of a community where you. Where we really are. In my opinion, when we speak of building the kingdom of God, I think of the kingdom as the people. Because for me, I think you can't have a kingdom if there's no people. So for me, I'd want a community where we really are truly building the kingdom of God, which is, for me, building each other, rather than judging and tearing people down for opposing opinions or oddities that they may have.
John Dehlin [00:14:52] Have you ever heard or read from Sunstone magazine or Symposium or anything?
Ann Whittaker [00:14:58] I've read one article now from Sunstone and I went to part of a Sunstone symposium because a friend was speaking there and I only listened to her spot because that's all the time I had for. But that's my.
John Dehlin [00:15:15] What was your experience with the article you read?
Ann Whittaker [00:15:19] I liked it a lot. It rose a lot. It brought a lot of questions and there were some answers to some other questions. I had been asking. There was some things in it that my husband and I have talked about that we both agree were a little for a shock value that usually turns us off in anything, whether it's art or literature. We kind of just like things to be presented more straightforward and. Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:15:54] What was your experience at the symposium?
Ann Whittaker [00:15:56] I loved it. It was my friend who was speaking on Mormon activism at byu and I actually. I was truly inspired by what she had to say. She had read a paper I had never read before. So it really made a big difference in how I was approaching some questions. And so I had a really good experience there.
John Dehlin [00:16:21] Do you have any friends or types of friends in your age group that are struggling with their relationship in the church that are feeling ostracized or marginalized in any way? If so, what are these friends experiencing and what do you see as ways we could maybe help them?
Ann Whittaker [00:16:50] I think of one friend who struggles, who has struggled for years and years with depression, which led to him becoming suicidal and then eventually leaving the church. And I think with all the depression and the things that he ended up doing, he started to feel a lot of guilt and pressure from the church, which I think is very common, and unfortunately had friends who exacerbated that and weren't true friends in some of his darkest times. And I see now he's friendly towards the church but does not want anything to do with it. And it really breaks my heart. And I think for him, if I could have some sort of conversation or if he could have the experience that I have had that I've come to with the guilt issue in the church, of knowing that the only reason we are asked to repent is not so. So that we can be punished, but truly so that we can be healed. And the only reason we're asked to go confess to our bishop, in my mind, is so that we can have that burden lifted off of us and not so that we can go through some sort of penance, which I think naturally happens anyway, to anyone who feels they have done wrong, you find your own way of doing your own sort of penance. And I think that for a lot of people that the judgments of the church just weigh on them so heavily that there's this guilt and this unworthiness. And I know that I've struggled with feeling unworthy in a lot of different ways, not to the extremities that my friend has, but I think that's the conversation and the things I would like for him to see in the church, that it really is a church Full of forgiveness and full of grace.
John Dehlin [00:18:55] What are the pillars of your faith?
Ann Whittaker [00:18:57] Okay, I feel like I have to number them, but I won't. I think the first thing, one of. Well, the biggest pillar of my faith is my belief in the reality of the atonement. And. And that is by far one of my favorite things about the church is this idea of grace and forgiveness. And I personally believe in a lot more grace than maybe most Mormons do. And maybe people would think that I shouldn't lean so much on grace, but I really do believe that the atonement is what can heal us, literally. I think also another pillar of my faith is truly in the Restoration. And studying what I have studied and seeing, amazingly, how it came to be, and feeling that I have had my own confirmation that the Restoration happened, that Joseph Smith did see God and the Son and a host of other people beyond the veil. And this is kind of perhaps an odd thing to label as a pillar of my faith, but I think it is. And that belief in knowing that there really, truly needs to be opposition in all things, including the church, including my relationships with people, including everything that happens in my everyday life, and knowing that that must be a part of my life that I must experience good and bad. So I would say those three things would be the main pillars of my faith.
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One Response
thanks to all those who have participated in this series. its been great to hear the stories told. i was wondering specifically about ann whitaker. with your strong femminist views, how do you reconcile those feelings with your favorite part of mormonism, the temple ceremony? or is this a problem for you?