Introducing Chris Foster and His Church Background

John Dehlin [00:00:19] What's your name?

Chris Foster [00:00:20] Chris Foster.

John Dehlin [00:00:21] Where are you from?

Chris Foster [00:00:22] Los Gatos, California.

John Dehlin [00:00:24] Oh yeah, Californian. What do you do?

Chris Foster [00:00:28] I teach philosophy.

John Dehlin [00:00:29] Where?

Chris Foster [00:00:30] Byu.

John Dehlin [00:00:31] Oh, yeah, you're right.

Chris Foster [00:00:32] But I'm not here qua BYU faculty whatsoever. I'm here qua man on the street.

John Dehlin [00:00:38] Of course.

Chris Foster [00:00:39] Only good.

John Dehlin [00:00:41] What Was your undergrad?

Chris Foster [00:00:43] UC Davis in Mathematics and Philosophy.

John Dehlin [00:00:45] Really?

Chris Foster [00:00:46] And your PhD in Philosophy at University of Kansas.

John Dehlin [00:00:50] Really? So you're a Jayhawk Rock chalk.

Chris Foster [00:00:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:00:55] How do you like Manhattan?

Chris Foster [00:00:57] Please don't ever, ever. I'm gonna break that camera. You confused me with Kansas State. One more time.

John Dehlin [00:01:03] Okay, wait.

Chris Foster [00:01:04] One more time. Lawrence, Kansas. Named after an anti slavery activist who wrote a newsletter in Massachusetts. So kind of the opposite of the those other people that school to the west.

John Dehlin [00:01:16] I can't believe I said Manhattan. Yeah, I just lost all credibility

Chris Foster [00:01:22] for your podcast.

John Dehlin [00:01:22] I know, it's over.

Chris Foster [00:01:24] Anti Mormon stories. That was anti parentheses Mormon stories, not anti Mormon stories that could be misunderstood.

John Dehlin [00:01:35] So talk about your relationship or experience in the church, good and bad. What are.

Chris Foster [00:01:45] Could you be broader about that? I was born a poor white child, okay? So I grew up in Los Gatos, California, as mentioned to atheist, somewhat hippie parents and liberals. And so I went to UC Davis and I was. So I was. We were. We were raised devout atheists. And so we pretty much. Where Mormons have.

Chris Foster [00:02:16] Mormons have these like, what do they call plaster casts of temples? We had plaster casts of hominids on our fireplace. I mean, Homo erectus, Homo habilis, australopithecines. You name them, we had them. I could name like Mrs. Ples Tong Baby, etc. And so that's how I was raised. And so I went to UC Davis and went to this like hippie festival called the Whole Earth Festival, and kind of had an awakening, I will call it. And the awakening was like. It was classic hippie awakening. It was sort of like, dude, whoa. Like, how do I even exist? Like, what does it mean to be alive?

Chris Foster [00:02:51] And I decided, why do I exist? I mean, yeah, I decided to question, and that is the best way to put it, I decided a question, namely, there's got to be a reason why I exist. Now evolution can explain how I exist as a physical being, but I needed an answer why I exist as a consciousness. And that sent me on a spiritual quest where I studied all the kinds of religions pretty much that crossed my path. And that was all the main ones really, and had nothing against non main ones. They're important too. But then I, after having attended, I didn't Just read about them more experientially.

Chris Foster [00:03:27] Like I went to ceremonies of all manner of religious thing. I think that's more important. And I read things. But when I went to the Mormon thing in 94, I was actually visiting my sister who lived in Provo. She having joined the church in 88, man, I felt this thing enter me and I was just like, what is this happiness? What is this light? And I decided that I don't know what church is true, but I know which one God attends. And I felt like God is in the room. And that sparked my interest, shall we say.

Chris Foster [00:04:01] So I went to Kansas and I met with the missionaries and I felt that thing again. And I just trusted at moments where I was most at the precipice and most willing to just give up on myself. I just leapt off that precipice and trusted. And Albert Camus refers to it as philosophical suicide, which is.

Chris Foster [00:04:22] I don't even disagree, but it's kind of a suicide that is also a rebirth where actually I fell to the abyss and was lifted to the mountaintop. And that irony is kind of really why I joined the church. That amazing experience of being resurrected spiritually in my life after having felt like I was a failure to then know that only by letting go of my own sense of journeying to success and just trusting in Chris that suddenly I found that success where I was lifted up in an instant.

Chris Foster [00:04:55] And that's still what I love most about Protestant belief systems is that. And I just believe that, which is that it's got to be about just loving God. It's got to be about loving Chris. It can't be about all this keeping commandments stuff. I'm not saying we are better by breaking them or whatever, but all that stuff is so like to use the dichotomy works based leaves all the guilt and all the sense of failure and all that stuff in place. For me it's only just. Here's what Christianity is. It's loving God and it's trusting God and it's throwing yourself in. That's what really saved me. And that's what I. That's where I'm still at. Long answer.

John Dehlin [00:05:38] That's good. So what's your. What's your experience at church on Sundays? The three hour block or whatever, Good and bad.

Chris Foster [00:05:52] See, I loved going to church when I was in Kansas, you know, it was the greatest thing. I would just look forward to it. We were like family. I would see those people. Yeah, it was just like, it was like discussion night. Plus Like, I don't want to say, plus the spirit, because that'll sound bad about discussion night, but it was like, I really felt this joy of the camaraderie and the family sense and.

Chris Foster [00:06:18] And that unity. And, yeah, they said a lot of junk I didn't believe. And, yeah, they were Republicans, but I already learned when I was an investigator, I said, I will not let subculture come between me and God. And so to me, if God was there, I didn't give a squad. If they were Republican, I wouldn't say I didn't give a squad. But I was willing to overlook it because the purpose of why we were there together wasn't a political meeting. It wasn't really. We weren't joined by sociality. I remember people when they'd say, well, why did you join the Mormons, of all people? The Mormons.

Chris Foster [00:06:48] Why would you, of all people, join the Mormons? You have to be kidding me. They would say this to me, and I'd be like, I couldn't really answer unless they understood the spirit, because to me, I said, you know what? And then some people say, like, well, I could see why you would want a social outlet and comfort of people. It's like, I don't need a social outlet. I had plenty of friends. I say, look, and if I were going to choose a group of loyal friends, it wouldn't be the Mormons. You know what I mean? Have you seen those people? The squares, Right? And so I wasn't there for that.

Chris Foster [00:07:18] We were united by a greater thing, which was knowing and experiencing God. And that's what I felt since I've come to Utah. I felt like gradually that. I don't mean to blame it on Utah, but just experientially, I felt like gradually the culture started to mute the view of God for me, and it became more about the doctrine and the commandments, the policy obeying, than it did about unity through, you know, sacred experience. For me, that's what I experience predominantly here. And then, you know, the fact that my job hinges on me going to church is kind of disturbing for me. I'm not saying I wouldn't go if my job did.

Chris Foster [00:07:56] I would, but just it creates this kind of ulterior, you know, sort of bastardization of my original motives, where now it's like, you have to. Maybe that's a trademark of a liberal, you know, herding cats, where it's like, if you tell them to do what they want to do, they're gonna be like, who are you to. I'm you Know, like, I shouldn't stereotype myself, but I think that, like, the religion is enforced upon me in my life. It contributes to my sense of inauthenticity about it. But I go and I get what I want out of it. I've had to go through internal revolutions and, you know, vomiting to feel better kind of approach to spirituality for a few years, and then I do feel better afterwards.

Chris Foster [00:08:38] I'm like, cool, I don't need to believe all that stuff anymore. You know, give me an apple or something. So that's kind of how I take church. I go there and I look for something funny or I look for something inspiring. I don't look to necessarily believe or absorb everything that goes on. I look to enjoy and find a sliver of something to tell my friends about later.

John Dehlin [00:09:02] So from a spiritual perspective or a philosophical or theological perspective, do you need to supplement your church experience? And if so, how do you do that?

Chris Foster [00:09:17] I think I developed a certain. What's the word. What's the fancy word? Misotheoey. We'll go with that. A certain. Not misanthropy, but misothiopy. What would you call it? A distaste. Well, that means, you know, dislike of God, but more so the dislike of all things religious. I developed for a while after living in Provo for, you know, after past four years and stuff, where I didn't feel like I wanted to supplement. I feel like I wanted to extricate, you know, what is that. That Kierkegaard talks about needing a vomitorium once in a while, you know, to just expunge all the crap, the purging of all the things that didn't sit well in my soul.

Chris Foster [00:10:00] And I feel like I've wrestled and struggled with that, but I feel like I've come to a sense of peace. And, hey, there's an accomplishment, you know, a sense of. A sense of. It's okay. I never was meant to digest most of that stuff. And I can find my health.

Chris Foster [00:10:15] And I want to not just be a person who recovered from being Mormon. I want to be a person who still is Mormon for the same reasons I became Mormon and then some. But I still have this recovery. From what? From this. From this doctrinal stuff that I don't know, that all the years of forcing myself can make me truly swallow and honestly believe a lot of things that don't inspire me or don't resonate with me. And if you want to know what that is, start reading the Miracle of Forgiveness, right? And that's sort of what I don't believe and so just harshness or. Yeah.

Chris Foster [00:10:53] And the really doctrinaire that you love God by keeping these set of rules that aren't really based on ethics, but are based upon judgment and, and fears. And maybe not everybody keeps them out of judgment and fear, but that's how I experience them because I don't see why. Anyway, so I want to go to the positive, which is I want to be a Mormon because when I loved and trusted God, he lifted me up and I felt him and I knew him and that I want that to be in my life. And I want that said. I want Mormonism to enhance my life and assist me in my connection with God.

Teaching at BYU and Students Leaving the Church

John Dehlin [00:11:29] What's it like teaching at BYU to the extent that, you know, you're comfortable sharing good and bad?

Chris Foster [00:11:38] First of all, I've heard plenty of stories about people having been, you know, fired from BYU or not given tenure or whatever because of their beliefs. I've heard plenty of those stories. And they're not just things I read about once upon a time. I mean, I know them secondhand. I mean, I know people that they've happened to, but nothing has really happened to me at all bad. Like I've. I've been pretty much completely unoppressed when I went to the other than I've been talked to a couple times, make sure I don't do like protest rallies on campus and type things like that which I. Which I am want to participate in.

Chris Foster [00:12:22] But. But I felt like when I was talked to about those things, I was talked to very reasonably. I was talked to very diplomatically and the reasons were explained and I was fine with that. I mean, I think almost any job has certain types of restrictions. If I were an athlete, I couldn't take steroids. I'm not an athlete. So, hey, you know, that's fun for me. I'm just kidding. Don't take steroids. But kids stay off the steroids.

Chris Foster [00:12:49] Except in golf. They haven't yet banned them. So what I'm trying to say was in those instances, I felt it was reasonable and I was talked to diplomatically. In other ways, I've been unoppressed. When I talked to the department chair when I was first hired, I was like, he never said anything about what you can or can't say. So I finally just like, so aren't you going to tell me where's the speech? What are the rules? What can't I do? And he's like, we teach philosophy here. Teach whatever. Philosophy is fine, but. But don't advocate something that's explicitly contrary to the church. But you can teach things that are contrary to church, but you can't advocate it as your own view if it's contrary to the church.

Chris Foster [00:13:21] And I understood that line, and it was a fine line, and there has been no problem. And I've taught many things that I thought were controversial for church members. And I've taught things like Nietzsche or whatever, and I haven't yet tried to do Mary daily, but I've never been stopped or punished or even talked to about the content of my classes. So I love my job. I'm treated well. I'm really sorry that people have been fired, you know, and when that happens, I think, you know, ought I, out of solidarity, you know, kind of resign or something? I think, you know, I don't necessarily think that's what those people would want me to do.

Chris Foster [00:13:59] They'd want me to. And so I'm treated well. I love my job. I'm not going to complain about how I'm treated at byu. I'm lucky to have that job, I think, and I enjoy it within the realm of what I'm given. I try to have fun, and I try to encourage my students to have fun. And to the extent that I'm able to teach, you know, spiritually relevant things, I like to.

Chris Foster [00:14:26] I like to sort of encourage a free and sincere ethic. And I'm not trying to brag, but I am on this thing that when I was surprised to see, given my own doubts about the church, which at times have been really extreme, that my highest teacher evaluation mark is usually the spiritually inspiring one. So I'm not saying that to brag. I'm saying that because what that means to me is that there's got to be students out there that also need that. That want maybe something that's. That's open and, you know, yet authentic approach to spirituality rather than just the hard line they've heard.

John Dehlin [00:15:02] So following on that, do you. Do you know or recognize a pattern within some students of them having needs that aren't being met or having dispositions that cause them to feel alienated or isolated or ostracized in any way? You know, where is there a need that should be looked after and attended to?

Chris Foster [00:15:28] Yeah, here's what I think.

John Dehlin [00:15:29] Or needs.

Chris Foster [00:15:31] I think that lots of students feel the thing that I described, that I felt after living in Provost. I can see it. I can just tell, you know, and by lots.

John Dehlin [00:15:46] Describe the feeling one more time.

Chris Foster [00:15:47] The feeling of, you've absorbed, you've Been eating this manufactured, processed diet that is your cultural experience of living in the church your whole life, and yet you're deficient. And there's minerals and vitamins that are missing from this TV dinner style Mormonism. And living in those bounds is unsatisfying. And it almost makes you want to leave so that you can find what else is there, because there's got to be something that will meet those needs somewhere. But you don't want to leave because there's so much good about it. You love the, the Mac cheese cup and the dessert part, you know, but there's something about. There's something else you need and there's this sense of craving. Even if they maybe haven't experienced, maybe they haven't gone to a hippie festival, but they feel unsatisfied. And then, you know, what do I want to say? I want to say that.

John Dehlin [00:16:44] So when a student feels that, I

Chris Foster [00:16:45] want to say yes.

John Dehlin [00:16:46] When a student feels that, what do you see is how they deal with it healthily or unhealthily?

Chris Foster [00:16:52] Well, unhealthfully. They hate themselves. I remember.

John Dehlin [00:16:55] They internalize it.

Chris Foster [00:16:56] Yeah, they internalize it. I've done that too. I'm not trying to impugn any church leader, especially not Jeffrey R. Holland, because I love Jeffrey R. Holland. I love the things he says. But I remember one talk he gave that he talked about. He compared church to a camp ground and people were on the inside of the camp around the fire enjoying this thing. And there were some people who pitched their tents towards the edges and they were neither in nor out and how that's not a good way to be. And I remember hearing that, that was a conference talk a few years ago. And I remember thinking, well, that's me.

Chris Foster [00:17:30] Well, what do you want me to do? Do you want me to force myself to sit by the fire if it doesn't fit for me and I don't like marshmallows or whatever? Or do you want me to leave? Like what I see what you're saying, what do you want me to do? And I think that the students that then decide I'm bad, you know, that's part of the reason Utah leads the nation in suicide rate, or so I've heard, is that people that don't fit this very narrowly confined mold then say, it must be because I'm bad, because it doesn't work for me. And I'm here to say, I want to say that it doesn't quite work for me either.

Chris Foster [00:18:04] There's parts of it I love, but that doesn't mean I'm bad. There's other stuff. I need a balanced diet. You know, spiritually, I want a sense of freedom and a sense of choosing my own path and enjoying that. And that, that's not wrong. And that doesn't symbolize a moral deficiency. Rather the reverse. You know, experiential curiosity, a spiritual passion, you know, need for exploration. And

John Dehlin [00:18:37] do you find students have a place to go?

Chris Foster [00:18:38] Oh, so that's. The negative is to internalize and feel guilt. The positive is, I think, to wake up, to Turn on, to use 60s talk to new things, to exciting things that aren't drugs or whatever, that aren't things that are actually going to lead to spiritual deterioration, but are things that are really uplifting and beautiful, that may not fit the Mormon mold, but are wonderful parts of life. That doesn't mean leaving Mormonism. It means expanding one's soul to find the light. You know, let there be light. Says behind me somewhere, so. And there was light. You know, whatever. I remember I listened to this Christian preacher on TV the other day, and he was making all kinds of fallacies and all kinds of rhetorical punches and all these things.

Chris Foster [00:19:24] And I remember laughing, thinking, gosh, people fall for that kind of reasoning. But then at the same time, he said some things I really liked, and it allowed me to evaluate my own hermeneutic. And my hermeneutic anymore isn't, does this agree with the Bible? Does this agree with the Book of Mormon? Did a prophet say this anything? Or is this reasonable? Does this agree with facts? My hermeneutic now is to throw that out and say, am I inspired by this? Is this what I need right now? And there were some things he said that absolutely uplifted me, and I'll take that. And who cares about all the fallacies? I just want to enjoy the things that I feel uplifted by. That's my muse.

John Dehlin [00:19:58] It's a healthy perspective. Thanks.

Chris Foster [00:20:01] That's how I stay Mormon and get, you know, learn to be happy.

John Dehlin [00:20:06] So where can these kids go? What are the questions?

Chris Foster [00:20:13] I heard at this magazine once, no, no, no.

John Dehlin [00:20:16] Are there outlets for them now? And if there aren't, can you envision it?

Chris Foster [00:20:21] There are millions and billions and trillions of outlets, and that's the thing. And I just don't want people to feel like those outlets are bad or wrong or some of them are like, drugs are. You know, I say that so cavalier. Some drug like. I'm just saying, like, to just go against Mormonism, like your, Your ex spouse, you always Go for the opposite. Or when you fire somebody, you go, that's what I want. Like with Mormonism, one can supplement, you know, with all kinds of beautiful stuff, and it doesn't have to look any kind of way. I believe in Taoism, which is that the way really can't be put into words or it's not the way anymore.

Chris Foster [00:20:53] He says, first there was a way, and then when the way was corrupted, it became religion. And when religion was corrupted, it became ritual. And I believe that, that what the spirit is for me is the way. It's the truth and it's the life. And that's it. Stay there. Stay at that place of the spirit. Stay at that place of inspiration. You know, don't give it up even for some doctrine that sounds like you ought to obey, because that ought, there's guilt in an ought and there's no fun there. And maybe that works for some people, but it doesn't work for a lot of people.

Chris Foster [00:21:27] These people I'm talking about. So stay there in that spirit. And there's a million things that can uplift that, the nature. Obviously groups of friends, like some groups of, I call them neo bohemian friends that I've made in Provo that I love and with whom I survive and with whom I can enjoy life and feel like I'm. I'm good. And we can feel that together and we can go to nature together or to music or to discuss things in literature, poetry that resonate with us or whatever the discussion of the week is. And be in the moment. And that's how I want to live. Beyond the bus.

John Dehlin [00:22:20] So have you heard of Sunstone or Dialogue at all?

Chris Foster [00:22:22] Yes, of course. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:23] Any thoughts, reactions?

Chris Foster [00:22:25] I first encountered Sunstone when I was in Kansas, and there I was trying to be a very gung ho Mormon. And it didn't yet have the distaste that it developed after living in Utah because being a gung ho Mormon in Kansas was a good thing. And I felt like. And in Utah for a while. But anyway, my point is that in Kansas I was really striving to be as good a Mormon as I could be. Even as strange as I was for a Mormon, you know, had long hair and I'm going home and listening to Bob Dylan and, you know, I didn't fit the mold at all, but yet I was striving to be so good and to be a good stake missionary.

Chris Foster [00:22:57] And I felt a lot of great feelings from that and loved it. And I came across this. But then I felt. I still felt weird, like, why Are all these people Republican? Why don't they, you know, how can they believe in creationism? Like that's a laugh, you know, but at the same time I'm like, should I believe? Okay, if I should, then I should. Therefore I tried. And how can you believe something that just ain't true for you? You know, like, and I don't mean to be a relativist, I really meant to say, how can you believe something that just ain't true? Like I don't believe in making a virtue out of believing something false.

Chris Foster [00:23:29] You know, I don't think that it's a virtue to force oneself to believe in creationism when it just ain't true. And I say that I should say for me, so I don't get fired or anything, but I believe in evolution because it's true. Is that a good reason to believe something? It seems like that should be a virtue. So I found these friends in Kansas who moved there, having some having come from Utah, that were of a similar free flowing needs to, you know, doesn't fit the mold kind of thing. And these people grew up par excellence Mormons. You know, my good friend Bonnie, who wanted to be, to marry a prophet that was as close as she could get to being a prophet was to be the wife of the prophet.

Chris Foster [00:24:11] She wanted to be the wife of the prophet and lived like that. And my friend Todd Armsby, who was brilliant and who loved Mormonism with a deeper passion than just about any cookie cutter person. Not that people are really cookie cutters, but I mean he was just. And yet they went to byu and going to BYU was the worst thing for their faith. The irony that BYU is supposed to be the nurturing or the best thing to keep people's faith, but for these people it was the worst thing for their faith. And so many people feel that way where they just feel being in a cage is the most thing.

Chris Foster [00:24:42] You know, if you're in a nice field and someone puts a cage around it and then narrows that cage even farther than the meadow is supposed to go, then they're going to like, heck, I'm out of here, you know. And so when some of them had the sun stone and started making the jokes, the kind of irreverent jokes, the kind of jokes that didn't fit in with doctrine, I was like, that was really bad, but funny. And I remember when my friend flipped open a sunstone for the first time, I looked over and it had this ad for Arnold Schwarzenegger looking missionary that said the Mormonator.

Chris Foster [00:25:12] And I was like, that's wrong, but funny. And had this list of like, you might be a Mormon if things that got increasingly more irreverent and funnier. But I was kind of like, those are my people. But I'm trying to change people. You know, I'm trying to be these other people. But, yeah, those are my people. And it wasn't until I. So can I have. Those were my people. And then I come to Utah and finally I'm like, no, those are my people. You know, I'm a person who is enriched by stuff that is.

Chris Foster [00:25:43] That just says, I don't want to be in a cage. You know, I'd rather have a walk on part in the war than a lead role in a cage any day. You know what I'm saying? I wish they were here. So anyways, they are. That's why I come to discussion nights. So that's my feeling about Sunstone was just irreverent but hilarious. And it helped to make me feel okay because those people. This is my friend Todd, who would raise his hand and always say something communist in Sunday school. And I'd be like, I don't agree with what he said, but I love him saying it.

Chris Foster [00:26:14] And I felt so much better. My other friend Todd, the brilliant one I was talking about, the first guy wasn't as brilliant. This guy is more the brilliant one I was talking about when I would meet for pizza and have our little discussion nights there every week. And I could say that I believed in Neanderthals and it was okay. And they're like, you felt guilty over that?

Chris Foster [00:26:34] Listen, we got. And then they would go through their things. I'd be like, wow, I don't feel so guilty anymore. I feel like I'm accepted and I'm one. I just think that's necessary for people like me. Because it's not. It's not that I'm not good enough to be a cookie cutter. It's that it's not honest and it's not happy. So I think it's not a virtue to make something that's not real. Truth is what is and what is next.

Pillars of Faith and Finding Personal Truth

John Dehlin [00:27:01] So you've talked about this a bit, but what are the pillars of your faith?

Chris Foster [00:27:05] Pillars? I don't see the part of. Part of what I'm saying is that I don't like pillars. I'm the water that flows around the pillars. I want to. Well, I'm not the water. Like I'm some sort of. I am the water. No, I'm saying I'm a leaf on the water that flows around those pillars. And I don't want to knock down those pillars. I want to flow around them. And so some people are pillar people. I'm flower people. And I like that better. What is it? What is the saying about that? There's some kind of saying like, I don't know. Oh, yeah, are you a rod of iron Mormon or a Liahona Mormon?

Chris Foster [00:27:45] You know, I guess I'm a Liahona, if that works at all. But. So the rod of iron, huh? I would think I might still think that I should be that kind of rod and iron Mormon. But I'm going to give three reasons why I rejected that. One is because for me it was crappy, didn't feel honest, felt painful.

Chris Foster [00:28:12] Number two, I don't think that's what Jesus was like. If I read Jesus, his example of his life was so about being real and authentic and spiritual with God and so against the rod of iron, stick in the muds, who were the Pharisees or whatever. I mean, it's almost a cliche to say that, but how do I still need to be saying this? When you look at, like, you know, the rules that, you know, I don't want to get fired, but I'm going to have to say the honor code is an obvious example of Phariseeism. I mean, how can you get more obvious? If I'm fired for pointing out the obviousness of that, then I might as well, you know, make the earth as flat.

Chris Foster [00:28:49] Be a commandment or something. Because it's obvious. Phariseeism. It's obvious. What is Phariseeism in the derogatory sense? It's adhering to a bunch of cultural rules to make you fit the norm of living well within the wall that don't actually have to do with loving your neighbor or loving God.

Chris Foster [00:29:08] And Jesus was. His main enemies in life weren't homosexuals and sinners. He loved those people. Right? His main. The people he spoke against were the Pharisees. And therefore I feel that's my number two. That's not what Jesus was about. He was about the love and the freedom. I feel like what I've been trying to say might be seen as apostate by many Mormons, but I think it's exactly what the exemplar Jesus was about. You know what I mean? Love your neighbor, love God, other order, but scratch that, reverse it. But there you go. And you're a good Mormon, you're a good Christian in as much as you nurture that in yourself.

Chris Foster [00:29:54] And so the number three reason was I felt I don't want to go into the number three reason. Sorry, man. What is a. Since I'm on. Since I'm doing an interview, I have to quote my favorite interview line ever. It's by crap. I'm really bad with names. What's his name again? The guy at uvsc, the performance poet.

Chris Foster [00:30:17] Oh, gosh, he's a great guy. Not Calderon, Is it? Calier? Yeah. He says, everybody's got a little truth in their pocket. Everyone's got a little truth in their pocket. Say, this is what everybody needs. This is my truth. Take a look at this. Take a look what I got in my pocket. I just love that line. It doesn't have to fit. But once I came up to Alex and I said, hey, look. And I pulled out a slip of paper out of my pocket and it said, everyone's got a little truth in their pocket. I said, that's my truth. Anyway.

John Dehlin [00:30:51] That's good.

Chris Foster [00:30:52] But don't say money. Don't talk about money Enough. Alex Caldieri. But as much as that was totally off point, that's probably my point. I love that guy. You know, he's in the moment. It's kind of like that because I keep saying on the bus or whatever, because I've read the Electric Koolaid Acid Test and I saw this interview with Ken Casey where they. They said to him, you know, what are your last thoughts for all the, you know, all the protesters out there? What would you like to say to them? And he starts to say, never trust that. And then the feedback from the microphone hit and it goes.

Chris Foster [00:31:24] And the interviewer, some square from a news program, says, I'm sorry, could you repeat that? And he goes, zzz. I thought it was so great. Repeat what? It's the moment. It's not the doctrine. It's the moment you're repeating that is repeating the life. You know, that's what I like. And that's why I like Jesus so much.

Chris Foster [00:31:43] He is so about the life and not about sticking to some phraseology from thousands of years ago. It's being you. And if you read that phraseology and it sparks you, great. That's what happened to me when I read the New Testament. The New Testament was an integral part and that festival were integral parts of sparking my spirit to know that there must be a reason. And that's what I think it's about. Amen. Thanks.

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