Introducing Collette Larsen and Her Story

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 971

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Sam. Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's August 23, 2018, and we have a very compelling and interesting and exciting interview for you today. Some of you may or may not know that probably the most popular, most downloaded interview of modern Mormon stories history is that of Christine Jepsen Clark.

John Dehlin [00:00:58] Most of you will know that because most of you have downloaded it. But it's this epic story of this woman who, you know, was the daughter of a general authority. Her dad was Malcolm Jepsen, who was Boyd K. Packer's doctor and best friend. He was involved in the September 6th stuff.

John Dehlin [00:01:15] But what was most epic about her story, Christine's was growing up in the 60s in sort of an orthodox Mormon home and all that she went through. And then what it was like, you know, she served in the Mormon Tabernacle Choir and played the organ for the tabernacle, all sorts of stuff. But eventually it kind of talked about what's it like to go through your faith Crisis in your 60s as a grandma and have kids and even grandkids deeply embedded in the church when you go through that faith crisis. And that's been one of the most, probably the most downloaded, important episode of modern Mormon stories history.

John Dehlin [00:01:54] And, and I decided that I wanted to follow up on that and to give more stories like that, but also different. And so today we have one of those stories. Today we're going to be interviewing Collette Larsen. Collette. Collette's story is really epic. It's definitely going to have that sort of pioneer ancestry, raised in the church, kind of feel, growing up in the 60s as a. As a woman.

John Dehlin [00:02:20] And the themes we're gonna cover are really important because, you know, Collette has experienced a death of a child in her life. She's experienced divorce in her life. She experienced kind of financial ruin as a result of that first divorce, which led her to sort of the lines of poverty, where she literally was faced with either going on welfare or trying to rebuild her life as a career woman. And so as an active, believing, devout Mormon with several kids, couple kids with serious illness, she became an entrepreneur and started her own business and eventually became, you know, built up a multimillion dollar business.

John Dehlin [00:03:05] It's an inspiring story. And then in her early 60s, experienced a faith crisis after having served in Relief Society presidencies, young women presidents, et cetera. So it is an epic story, and we think it's going to be helpful. There are so many Mormon women out there who go through a faith crisis, young or middle aged or old who have to rebuild or they go through a faith crisis and they realize they would have made very different decisions if they hadn't of been orthodox Mormon. And so one major theme of this is going to be rebuilding your life as a woman or as a human after tragedy in the context of a Mormon context, but then also a transitioning or questioning Mormon context.

John Dehlin [00:03:53] This is going to be an epic story. Grandma Coco, as she's known to her grandkids. She's a mom, a wife, a grandma, an entrepreneur again. She's built up a multi million dollar global enterprise. She's lived internationally. And she's just one of those humans that is wise and insightful and powerful, but also loving. And so, Collette Larsen, I'm so delighted to have you on Mormon Stories podcast today.

Collette Larsen [00:04:22] Well, thank you so much. I'm honored to be here. I have a question for you.

John Dehlin [00:04:25] Yes.

Collette Larsen [00:04:26] You said young, middle aged and old. Which basket would you put me in between?

John Dehlin [00:04:30] Young and right around young, late young.

Collette Larsen [00:04:33] I'm happy to be a grandma. No, seriously, I love this stage of life, you know, because I've had children with serious disease that were born with basically terminal illness. Terminal illness, cystic fibrosis. Age has always been something we've celebrated. So I just had my 6, 66th birthday and you know, I am so happy to, you know, I'm proud to be 66 years old, so probably in that older basket, at least in the last third of my life. But I'm so happy.

John Dehlin [00:05:00] Early middle age then. Well, it's great to have you on. Thank you. And let's just dive right in. So you, you have pioneer heritage. Talk about that for a bit.

Growing Up Mormon in Rexburg, Idaho

Collette Larsen [00:05:11] I do. On both sides of my family. I, you know, there's a, there's a picture we have, I think his name's Clark Kelly Price. That, that painted that beautiful picture of a, there's a very shallow grave. You probably, there's the three, three crosses there and there's a mom holding a baby to the side. It's on this wind, you know, swept plains. And this pint. That was actually my great, I think great, great, great grandfather laying in that grave. He gave up his portion of flowers so his wife and child could live. And the little baby in that painting is my grandmother.

Collette Larsen [00:05:45] So, yes, pioneer heritage there. Larsen from Denmark, Solberg from England, coming over and settling basically in the Idaho area. But as far back as I know, I don't think we have any ties to Brigham Young or anything like that. But certainly back in those early, early days. A lot of polygamy in our history, in our ancestry.

John Dehlin [00:06:07] So what was it like growing up in Rexburg? I kind of think of Rexburg as like the Mormon Saudi Arabia, but tell me if that was your.

Collette Larsen [00:06:16] I loved Rexburg. It was the center of my universe. And I thought Rexburg was just. I mean, I just thought it was the hub of everything. I mean, occasionally we'd go all the way to Salt Lake City, but I really loved growing up there. And, you know, everyone knew everyone. My parents were in the clothing business. We owned several clothing stores there until the flood came. And what was that? 76 when the dam broke and it took a couple of stores. We never reopened. But my grandfather was the mayor growing up.

John Dehlin [00:06:45] And what was his name?

Collette Larsen [00:06:46] Gilbert Larsen? Gibb Larsen. And I just felt like I knew everyone. Everyone knew us. Everyone, of course, was. I mean, almost everyone was Mormon. It had to have been like 98% or something, you know, but we had spud harvest. Every fall would get out of school for. You know, all the kids were expected, like second grade on you were out of school. You had to go up in the. On the dry farms, get those spuds in. We just. I felt like it was a real community feel. The church was my life. My dad was in the bishopric numerous times. My mom was the stake. I think she was stake primary president and just so, so active.

Collette Larsen [00:07:24] I didn't know anything else. I mean, I felt like, so fortunate to have been, you know, born in the latter days, born in the covenant to these faithful parents. I'm the oldest of 10 children. My mom had 10 children in 14 years. Is that just. You know, that's how it was. But, you know, we had the ward bazaars and the road shows. And in high school, I was in that international dance festival. We got to come to Salt Lake and be in the dance festival. And we had the round the block parades and the. You know, all of that. It was just. It was actually kind of magical.

Collette Larsen [00:08:02] You know, my dad was the president of the. I think he was the JC's president. Would have the. Down there in Porter park. Would have the cookouts and the. Anyway, what's JC's? JC's is kind of like the Lions Club. It's just a community service.

Collette Larsen [00:08:17] No, you know, I don't think it was the JC's. I think it was Kiwanis. I think it was Kiwanis club president. And my parents were very. My dad and my grandpa, they were Democrats, which was pretty unusual in Idaho. You know, in fact, my father Was one of the delegates in 1968 to go back to Chicago. An Idaho state delegate, Democratic delegate. So, so I, and then my mother, her father had been a Republican, state Republican in the legislature. And so we had this kind of fireworks all the time, this Republican, Democrat, you know, conflict in our house. And I kind of tended to side with my dad.

Collette Larsen [00:08:55] A little more liberal, but great growing up, wonderful friends, great relationship with my siblings. We still are very close. We have family reunions every year and you know, so I don't have any. And I loved the church, you know, I loved. That was just part of my life. Released Times Seminary and all of that. It was just, it was great.

John Dehlin [00:09:16] So what kind of, what decade, time span would have been? Let's just say 8 to 18 years old. Would that have been early 60s?

Collette Larsen [00:09:24] I was born in 52, so I graduated from high school in 1970.

John Dehlin [00:09:28] Oh, so you're like a teenager right in the middle of the 60s?

Collette Larsen [00:09:30] Oh, yeah, yeah. And I did have some real cognitive dissonance about a few things. So first of all, I did, you know, I've been very, been watching. I got to meet Sam Young last weekend. I happened to be here in Salt Lake. And so I, I went to meet him because he's a real hero of mine. Because even though I had a very happy childhood, I had some very uncomfortable interviews and that just didn't feel good to me. But I just figured it was part of, part of the deal. But I also, I also with my dad who was, who was quite, he's passed away, but he was pretty nuanced.

Collette Larsen [00:10:09] You know, he was in the bishopric and everything, but very liberal minded. And we, you know, a friend and I started the Young Democrats club. So I remember writing an article about the war in Vietnam, how I wish I could go to a sit in in San Francisco. I mean I had that kind of, you know, I didn't. Every night, John, when I was growing up, you know, you'd hear Walter Cronkite come on the TV and they'd say how many had died that day in Vietnam. And you know, I knew boys that had gone over. I just couldn't figure it out. I didn't feel right about it.

Collette Larsen [00:10:42] So I had that kind of little bit of a liberal activist going on one side of my brain and then on the other side. That was when Fascinating Womanhood came out. And some of these books about how to. I remember reading that book and being told in that book that I should wear pigtails and stamp my foot and pout if I Wanted to get my way.

Collette Larsen [00:11:01] I was like this activist girl budding feminism and then trying to fit this mold, knowing that, I mean, my role in life was to help bring spirits into this world and all those things. So some early conflict, even though I feel like my childhood was very happy.

John Dehlin [00:11:22] So your dad was a potato farmer?

Collette Larsen [00:11:23] No, my dad owned clothing stores.

John Dehlin [00:11:25] Okay, so.

Collette Larsen [00:11:26] But if the farmers.

John Dehlin [00:11:27] You said, helping out with the potatoes.

Collette Larsen [00:11:28] Yes, everybody did. I don't know if you know that in. In Rexburg, back in the 60s, the school closed everything elementary, junior high, high school. We closed for at least two weeks in October. And all of the kids helped the farmers get. You know, we. We picked spots. You know, we put it in baskets, put them in gunny sacks. The t. You know, I mean, a lot of my friends were driving trucks at 13, 14 years old. I mean, if. If the potato farmers didn't do well in Idaho, in Rexburg, then no one did well, you know, because that's who bought the clothes. That's who went to.

Collette Larsen [00:12:00] So it was just a community, a real community thing. You know, a little something interesting that probably too many people. Not too many people know is that when I was in high school, there was a move to move Ricks College. There was a kind of this groundswell to move Ricks College, I think it was, to Idaho Falls. And my grandpa was the mayor, and he was. He really put up a stink about that. I think it was with Wilkinson. I wish I'd done a little research on that. But I remember being really proud of my grandpa, like, holding that. Holding Ricks College, you know, in.

Collette Larsen [00:12:33] In Idaho. And of course, always in the fall when the college kids would come, especially when I was in high school, it was like, here come the college boys. You know, it was kind of fun.

John Dehlin [00:12:41] Were you paid to pick those potatoes or not?

Collette Larsen [00:12:43] Oh, yeah. You got. I think you got 25 cents a bag or something. So if you work, I mean, it was slave wages, truthfully. But back in that, you know, back in 1966 or whatever, you know, you could make 150 or $200 in those two or three weeks. And, you know, that was a lot of money back then.

Spiritual Life and Faith as a Teenager

John Dehlin [00:13:01] So as far as the things you loved about the church, you talked about roadshows and dance festivals. What was your spiritual life like as a teenager in Rexburg?

Collette Larsen [00:13:12] Our family was very devout. You know, the, you know, family home evenings. You know, I'm the oldest of 10, so, you know, I was in, like. I was a cheerleader in Inderil team, and I would get up very early in the morning for my practices. My father was always sitting in his rocking chair, often by the fireplace with his scriptures open. He loved. He loved the scriptures and he loved Shakespeare. He was either reading Shakespeare or reading the Scriptures. And my mother was just. She was this organized, incredible mom. She just ran our home, just, you know, and we always had family home evening. We always had breakfast together.

Collette Larsen [00:13:49] We always had family prayer before we could leave for school. We never. We never missed. We kept the Sabbath day holy. We weren't one of those families that had to stay in our Sunday clothes or anything, but we didn't shop or anything like that. The Sabbath was a different day. So. So, you know, it was very. There was a lot of ritual around that, and I think I enjoyed that. On the other hand, I was a little bit of a black sheep. I mean, like, I was the. I was the black. You know, I was the.

Collette Larsen [00:14:21] I think I was the Miami class president was at Miami's back. I mean, I was very, very involved. I loved mutual. But I had this. This boyfriend that I'd had since seventh grade. And we basically were together almost all through high school, and. And we were really, really good kids. I mean, he was a wonderful young man, but we just. We were together too much, and we started messing up, you know, and, oh, my gosh, we would.

Collette Larsen [00:14:48] We would be heartbroken that we felt like we'd gone too far. And so, you know, we'd go to the bishop. He was in a different ward, but I'd go to the bishop, and then the bishop would tell me, you know, okay, you can't. You know, I don't want to go into too much detail, but I just kept trying to be better, and then I'd slip up, and then I just started feeling so. Like, what is wrong with me? I keep repenting, and then I mess up. And then I repent, and then I mess up. And that sort of. And not even understanding that, you know, I mean, of course I understand now.

Collette Larsen [00:15:18] Hormones are raging and all of that, and I actually don't have too many regrets about that now. But at the time, I started feeling less and less worthy. And finally, my. Well, my mother read my journal, my diary, and knew that I was struggling. And so my parents thought I should go see someone in the state presidency and get my life in order. And I will never forget. This is where the shame really started, I think, because I sat across from this gentleman who was a dear friend of my parents, who I had a lot of respect for, and I confessed to him, you Know that I was trying.

Collette Larsen [00:15:56] And he looked at me and he said, do you think the problem might be that you're just over sexed? And I was like 15, and I was like, oh, you know, I just felt broken. Like, isn't that. Isn't that a terrible thing to say?

John Dehlin [00:16:10] How do you. I don't know.

Collette Larsen [00:16:12] I'm like, I don't know. I just really feel like I love him, you know, and we're trying and anyway, so I had that conflict going on, like, wanting to be a good girl, feeling. Feeling like I wasn't. I remember, you know, a lesson in seminary where they took the board. He had a board and it nailed all these nails in it. And he talked. He was talking about chastity, and he said, you know, you did this, you petted you, you know, and he just nailing these. And then he pulls the nails out and he turns around and he says, but the holes are still there.

Collette Larsen [00:16:45] And I just felt like, man, I am. I'm just. I'm not going to make it, you know, I'm not going to make it. I still remember just feeling like I want to be with my family and I've messed up so much. God must be so angry with me because I'm such a hypocrite, you know, I'm always begging for forgiveness and then I mess up, you know, so those kind of. That kind of high school angst was really, really tough.

John Dehlin [00:17:11] So on the one hand, I can see a thoughtful leader wanting to help you avoid teenage pregnancy, wanting to help you avoid STDs or STIs, wanting you to kind of not wreck your life on the one hand. So I guess in theory I could see a leader who cares about you wanting to just help you, not wreck your hopes and dreams.

Collette Larsen [00:17:34] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:17:34] On the other hand, there's all the Sam Young stuff. So where was it in the continuum for you? It sounds like you felt a lot of shame. Were there inappropriate questions or did they cross lines? And if so, what can you say about that? Or do you want to say, yeah,

Collette Larsen [00:17:50] you know, like, that question was, I thought I felt inappropriate. Do you think you just might be over 6? Well, I don't know. I don't think so. But maybe.

John Dehlin [00:17:59] Maybe that represents the inappropriate.

Collette Larsen [00:18:02] Yeah. Yeah. I don't remember too many of the other. I don't remember other. I remember not being able to take the sacrament. And I remember one time, it was the seminary program, and I was sitting up there and on the stands, you know, and thinking everyone was watching me. And I had Been told not to take the sacrament. And I just felt like the shame. I know that I just turned crimson, you know, just the shame of feeling that. Now. I absolutely understand what you're saying and, you know, I'm a mom and a grandma. But I think the problem is, what I wish we could do is I wish we could just talk about these things.

Early Marriage and Life in the Temple

Collette Larsen [00:18:41] Things. I wish we could talk about sexual activity and what, what this means and what this means and what this means. And maybe we're, you know, like, if I could go back and be a mother again, because I didn't even do this with my own daughters. It's kind of a, you know, we. It's kind of a taboo subject to. We just don't talk about it very much. And if you are going to. If you are going to cross that line, you should be protected. I would never have thought of, you know, protection from pregnancy because then that's like admitting beforehand that you're going to sin, you know, it's just.

Collette Larsen [00:19:14] It's really messed up, isn't it? You know, I mean, teenagers, it's just so. It's so tough. But I did feel like I, you know, that that boyfriend had. All through high school, we've stayed in a little bit of contact over the years. He's a great guy. I think he's an active member of the church and he went on to go on a mission and, and everything. And so anyway, that. That part worked out.

John Dehlin [00:19:37] So a lot of times we associate the 60s and 70s and maybe 80s with kind of Joseph Fielding Smith, Bruce Armaconkie, Mormonism and all that stuff in Mormon doctrine. Would that have been.

Collette Larsen [00:19:48] Absolutely. My parents had. In fact, I would love to find their original copy of Mormon Doctrine because I can remember there were two. There were two big books back. Mormon Doctrine was one of them. And then that. Who wrote that book? Everything you ever wanted to know about sex but were afraid to ask. Well, those. I remember my girlfriend had that and we snuck that out of her mom's library and we would read that. But I would take Mormon doctrine and I would read through it. And I still remember because a family had moved in into our community that were Catholic and so I wanted to learn.

Collette Larsen [00:20:22] And I remember reading in Mormon Doctrine and I think it said in that book, I'm almost positive that the Catholic Church church was the whore of all the earth or something. I was going, oh. So immediately I thought of that family as just like evil, you know, and that book just was. That book was horrific. But yes, we had Mormon doctrine. And it was the Bible in our home, you know, and of course, Ezra Taft Benson, that was a little bit later. But his.

Collette Larsen [00:20:51] I remember having some difficulty with the stuff he said about women. And, you know, he was very. You stay at home and you, you know, you just have those babies. And, you know, when I first got married, I mean, I got married at, you know, I barely turned 18. I mean, 17 in July. Married at 18. Ridiculous. But, you know, I felt like we shouldn't use birth control, things like that.

John Dehlin [00:21:13] What would. What would your maybe desires or inklings for yourself have been? And then what was the role that the church had for you? Can you talk? Was there a conflict there?

Collette Larsen [00:21:24] Yes, yes, there was talk about both. There was. I loved learning and I was a very good student. And, you know, now I wish. I mean, I've got a high school education, John. That's it. And I just think, oh, my goodness. I just wish. And so after I broke up with my one boyfriend again, I really did feel like damaged goods by that point. So. So then I started dating this boy that came to Rick's college. His parents had sent him there to straighten him up. And I messed up again. And I didn't feel worthy to go through the temple. He asked me to marry him. And it was kind of this feeling like, if you've already messed up, I'm going to call it that. You can think whatever you want, but then I don't deserve anyone else. You know, it was kind of that thing, famous goods. I might as well just marry him.

John Dehlin [00:22:15] It's kind of like what Elizabeth Smart talks about. She was damaged goods. Who else would want her chewed gum

Collette Larsen [00:22:21] if I went to byu? In fact, I think I actually got a partial scholarship to byu and I turned it down because this guy had asked me to marry him. And I just thought, the other thing is, I was the oldest of 10 children. A lot of responsibility. I'd been working in my dad's clothing store since I was young. And I just saw marriage as a. Like, I'm an escape, you know, I'm going to get out and have my own life. And. And so married very, very young. And then I just felt like we didn't get married in the temple. And so then it was like.

John Dehlin [00:22:51] Was that shaming?

Collette Larsen [00:22:52] Yeah, it was.

John Dehlin [00:22:53] Were your parents disappointed?

Collette Larsen [00:22:54] I was so disappointed. My parents weren't happy with my marriage at all. They didn't want. They really didn't want me to marry this man, this young man. He was only 20. And my dad walked me down the aisle and with Tears coming down his face. I mean it was. And the bishop that married me was so. He had been my bishop and he was so mad, he didn't even say anything to us. It was a terrible wedding. It was terrible. He just went, do you take, you know, there was no counseling. No. It was just boom, boom, boom, and we were married.

John Dehlin [00:23:23] And why was your dad crying?

Collette Larsen [00:23:25] Because he was heart sick.

John Dehlin [00:23:27] Was it that you weren't in the temple or that he didn't like the guy or he thought you were marrying too young?

Collette Larsen [00:23:32] Yes, yes and yes, all of those things. All of those things.

John Dehlin [00:23:34] So he wanted more for you than an early marriage?

Collette Larsen [00:23:37] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:23:38] Okay.

Collette Larsen [00:23:38] He wanted to send me to New York to fashion design school and things. I mean he, you know, he. And why I didn't do that. I know now it's because I just didn't feel worthy of any of that. I knew, you know, I just felt like I've made my bed, I better just lie in it because.

John Dehlin [00:23:52] What messages had the church sent you?

Collette Larsen [00:23:54] Yeah, that. Well, several things that dam the damaged good that you're not, you know, you're not worthy. And when I've talked about this to like my sisters and things, they'll go, well, that's what repentance is for. But there's still those, those messages go really, really deep. And I, I didn't feel worthy of, of anything else. And I thought, well, at least if I'm married, then I'm legal, you know, I'm not messing up anymore. And I, I don't know, I mean, what, what's in a 17 year old girl's mind? I, I just, But I'll tell you what I do Feel now at 66, I look back at her and I feel a lot of compassion because I know I was just struggling.

Collette Larsen [00:24:40] I wanted to be good. I wanted my parents to be proud of me. So my next step, I thought is I can get my husband to the temple if we can go through the temple in a year. And we went in, we went through and were sealed like a year and three days after we married. So that was my. And then maybe then that will, then I can get on this path of righteousness, start having children. I'll have 10 too, you know, and I'm just, I'm going to make up for my mistakes. Does that make any sense? Yes.

John Dehlin [00:25:07] How'd that go?

Collette Larsen [00:25:09] How did that work out for you? Well, first of all, the temple was. Oh my goodness, you know, this was 1971.

John Dehlin [00:25:19] Pardon me, but back when it was

Collette Larsen [00:25:21] more fun home, I Remember that going there just. And I, you know, it had been my goal, my ultimate. This is it, you know, this. And then I just remember I kept looking around thinking, are my mom and dad okay with this? And then the, you know, all the oaths and the. It just was so brutal to me. It just seemed so. And it didn't. It wasn't at all. I didn't have any of the feelings that I felt like in fast and testimony meeting, for instance.

Collette Larsen [00:25:52] And you know, I was so confused on the clothing. And that was back in the day of the full length garments and everything. I was so uncomfortable and just. Oh, man. But at least I had. But, you know, you look around and all these people that you love and respect, they're totally into it. And I'm just going, okay, this is. This has got to be it. I've just. And my dad, you know, my mom and dad went to the temple every week. And my dad said something to me that I still haven't finished figured out. He said he learned something new every time he went.

Collette Larsen [00:26:23] And he assured me that if I just kept going that it was all about symbolism and that I'd get this meaning, I'd feel the depth of the spirit there. And I actually, I ended up being a temple worker. Up until a few years ago, I actually got so that I enjoyed different aspects of it. I enjoyed the ritual of it. I enjoyed sitting in the celestial room and I enjoyed the quiet. You know, I would work in San Diego temple and just the calm and things there. But, boy, the first few times I went through was really tough.

John Dehlin [00:26:57] And for those who don't know the history or have gone through kind of since 1990, they won't know that the temple ceremony had a lot of Masonic rituals that involved oaths, penalties, hand signs that were very graphic and gory. When I said it was more fun back then, I was being sarcastic. It was for many of us, very traumatic to go through hand motions of harming yourself and murdering yourself, violent ways, slitting your throat or disemboweling yourself. And. Yeah, it's very disturbing and it's good they got rid of it.

Collette Larsen [00:27:38] Yes, yes.

John Dehlin [00:27:39] You wonder how it ever got in there.

Collette Larsen [00:27:40] Oh, and then even before that, the washing and anointing, you know, back then you literally just had like a poncho on you. And I. And whoever was helping me said, take off all your clothes. What? You know, that was just, you know, again, I'm 18, you know, 18 years old. And no, I just turned 19. But it was like. And then. And Then these, this, you know, sweet little old lady is, like, reaching in and touching my body, and it just felt it was violating to me. I was so happy when they changed all those things. But just recently, yeah, recently they changed that. And it was, like, way overdue in my estimation.

John Dehlin [00:28:22] Yeah. Okay, so got in the temple and started being the fabulous mother and wife, right?

Motherhood, an Unhappy Marriage, and Infidelity

Collette Larsen [00:28:30] Yes. I had my first son when I was 12 and actually had five children in seven years. And not a very happy marriage, but I loved being a mother. There was a lot of emotional abuse, a lot of infidelity in that marriage. But again, I think because my parents and the people who loved me were so opposed to the marriage, I was going to make it work. Come hell or high water. I was going to pray, prove them all wrong.

Collette Larsen [00:29:03] I have, you know, this streak in me, this rebellious streak. Like if they say it won't work, I'm going to make it work. So numerous without going into it, but just so much heartache and sadness. And, you know, my.

Collette Larsen [00:29:18] My husband was excommunicated twice, on probation a few times. Different things like that. Just lots of. Lots of infidelity and. But again, what I would internalize is, you know, what did I expect? I was not, you know, I broke all the rules. I'd had this patriarchal blessing that my patriarchal blessing actually said. I read it not too long ago. I was given all these incredible blessings. But then it said, if you were ever tempted to be married outside the temple and then sealed later, you will lose the blessings that are pronounced on your head this day. So I'd actually been given, like, this war.

Collette Larsen [00:30:00] I think the patriarch knew my dad or whatever. I don't know how that ended up in there, but, you know, I thought, I've already lost all the blessings. No wonder my marriage is so difficult.

John Dehlin [00:30:10] Oh, so you experienced that patriarchal blessing as a condemnation on the marriage you ended up entering into?

Collette Larsen [00:30:16] Yes, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:30:17] Oh, my gosh. That's not a great way to start a marriage.

Collette Larsen [00:30:20] I know, I know. And that, you know, but I knew again, I just. I don't know, I can't unravel her mind or what she was thinking. But I knew. I felt like used goods, broken goods. I better try to make the best of it. So I just thought, I'll just have as many children as I can, earn those celestial points or whatever. And I did love being a mom. I just loved being a mom. I had a great role model in my mother. And so I had, you know, at 20, I had my first son and 16 months later I had my second son, and 12 months later, I had my first daughter.

Collette Larsen [00:30:59] So I had three children, and the oldest had just turned 2. So really, it was like having triplets. And then I waited a few years and had another little girl who we realized early on was just really, really sick all the time. She just failed to thrive.

Collette Larsen [00:31:16] And lots of, you know, we couldn't figure it out. Took her to lots of doctors, lots of specialists, everything else, and she just couldn't eat. She couldn't keep her food down. She was always coughing, so I was always trying to suppress her cough and everything.

Collette Larsen [00:31:33] And in the meantime, I got pregnant again. We wanted to have two more. I wanted to have two more. Pretty close. And so I was pregnant and finally took her to a doctor. And, you know, she was like. She was like 12 months old and only weighed like 12 pounds or something. She was tiny. And the doctor put her foot in his mouth, and I thought, okay, I finally found a real quack here. And he sucked on her foot, and he took her foot out, and he said, have you ever heard of cystic fibrosis? I went, no. And he wrote it down. And he said, I want to run some tests on her.

Collette Larsen [00:32:07] And with cystic fibrosis, your. Your skin is very salty. So that's why he was tasting her little foot. I didn't know that. But anyway, I do remember going home, and I was seven months pregnant at the time. I went home and looked up in my health journal or whatever, cystic fibrosis. And I still remember just literally slumping to the ground because it said that it was a terminal disease.

Collette Larsen [00:32:32] And he also asked me if there had been any. If I knew anything about my relatives, had any of them died young. And I didn't. I said, well, back in our genealogy, there's this thing called consumption, you know, and there are people. I don't know what that was. And he goes, well, that's interesting, you know. So anyway, she did this sweat chloride test, and it came back positive. My beautiful daughter had cystic fibrosis. And then, of course, I'm pregnant again. And what you learn is it's a genetic. It's a genetic disease. Both the father and the mother are carriers. And then each of your children have a 25% chance of having this disease.

Collette Larsen [00:33:08] Our three older children, no problem. But obviously he had carried that gene from one of his parents. I had it from one of mine. I spent the next two months, I had blessings, praying just that this new baby would not have this. And then she was born with it also. And we knew that because as soon as she was born, she had this blockage. And so while I was still on the table, I had my tubes tied. I knew that if this baby had cf, I had all that I could handle. So I remember laying on the table, just crying, thinking, I'm only going to have five children.

Collette Larsen [00:33:42] I mean, five is a lot of kids. But, you know, I had to make up for a lot of mistakes in my life. But I did have these two beautiful little girls who were so sick and then these three. So, you know, my oldest had just turned seven and I had five children. And my husband was having another, you know, side thing going on. And, man, this idea of having babies,

John Dehlin [00:34:07] this idea of having babies to, like, earn your worth and make up.

Collette Larsen [00:34:12] But, you know, that was the message that there's all these spirits and they could go to Africa if you don't have them, or they could go to. You know, I know. It's just. I know. I understand that. I hear the words I'm saying, but that is what we were. You know, they could come. They could be born in the covenant, they could come. They could live in America, you know, just all these. They're not going to be born into abject poverty or something, you know. And so there was. There was a real.

Collette Larsen [00:34:41] You know, I mean, my parents. I was the oldest of 10. Our family joked. My dad wanted two and my mom wanted a dozen. And my dad said. Said, we'll keep having him until we get an ugly one. So I always teased my youngest brother that he was the final, final one. And by the way, he's very handsome. But, you know, that was back then, big families were the thing, you know.

John Dehlin [00:35:03] You talked about a meeting with Marion D. Hanks.

Collette Larsen [00:35:06] Well, yes. My. My husband had been excommunicated once. And then, I mean, there were. Finally. He was. So after his first excommunication, it had been several years. And in order to get back, I don't know if it's the same now, but in order to have your blessings restored, you had to meet with an apostle. So we at the time were living up in Spokane, Washington, and Marion D. Hanks was near Seattle, I think it was. And so we drove over there and had a.

John Dehlin [00:35:34] Was he an apostle?

Collette Larsen [00:35:36] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:35:37] Okay.

Collette Larsen [00:35:37] Yeah, he was an apostle. I think he was one of the 12 at the time. I think I'll have to go back.

John Dehlin [00:35:42] This would have been a GA era, possibly.

Collette Larsen [00:35:45] I'm not even sure what year this would have been. Probably early 80s maybe. But anyway, we did go meet with him. And I remember just being so, you know, like, this is such a privilege. But I don't remember too much of what he said except this relief that flooded over me because he told. Because, you know, I wanted my marriage to survive and I wanted things to change. I loved my husband. Husband. I just. And he. Every time he messed up, he came back and begged to come back. He didn't. He wasn't gonna. He didn't want to leave. He just was so sorry. And we went through counseling and, you know, that's all.

Collette Larsen [00:36:20] Anyway, my gosh. But Marion D. Hanks said to him, I want you to understand, you know, you. You can. I'm going to let your. You know, you're going to be reinstated. Your blessings are going to be reinstated, but if this ever happens again, you will be excommunicated, and you will never be rebaptized. And I was like, wow. And I think that that was actually something back then that you could only. You could only be excommunicated once. You couldn't come back again. So I just remember this relief. And he said, of course it's never going to happen again. Of course. And of course it did happen again.

Collette Larsen [00:36:52] But this relief flooded over me like, we're going to make it. We are going to make it. An apostle has given us this warning and given us this promise, and we're gonna make it. So. Yeah.

Emotional Fallout of Betrayal and Divorce

John Dehlin [00:37:05] What does it do to a woman with multiple kids to be cheated on by your husband? What is that? How is that. What is that like? I know, obviously it's awful, but talk about what it does to a woman to be home with the kids, cheated on by the husband. What does that do?

Collette Larsen [00:37:25] It's just. I don't know. It's really hard put it into words because you just. You know, I'm very optimistic. I've been called Pollyanna all my life. So every time I thought, we're going to make it, I'm going to love you more than anyone could ever see. You're trying to win this love over, I think, and be as good as whoever he's been with or whatever. And it's just. But again, there's this conflict, and there's also anger that you're always trying to suppress because, you know, if you really blow up, he's to going. Going to go off again, you know, so there's just. And he obviously was not happy.

Collette Larsen [00:37:59] He obviously didn't love me. And now in retrospect, I can look back on that and say, you know, we should have. We should have Split the sheets right in the beginning and just gone our, you know, because obviously I couldn't. I didn't have what he needed. I couldn't provide what he needed. And maybe he, maybe my insistence on. I mean, I was, you know, he was raised in more of a nuanced household. And I was like, we're going to. In fact, this is an example of how really awful I was and maybe how hard to be married to. After we'd gone through the temple, garments were.

Collette Larsen [00:38:30] I mean, we just. I wanted them, you know, we're going to wear them all the time, pretty much. One time I saw him leaving and I noticed he didn't have his garments on. He was going to go meet up with one of his buddies and I went, where you're not wearing your garments? And he goes, I don't want to put them on. I go, you're not leaving this house without him. And he goes, watch me. And, you know, he left. I had hair down to my waist.

Collette Larsen [00:38:50] This memory is just coming up for me. It's like I had this long, beautiful hair I was so mad at. And he loved my hair. He loved my hair. While he was gone, I flipped my head over, put all my hair up like this, put it in a rubber band, and I chopped it off.

Collette Larsen [00:39:06] And then I put it in a clear plastic bag and hung it on our door and said with a little sign that said, never leave without your garments again.

John Dehlin [00:39:15] You know, wow, that's intense.

Collette Larsen [00:39:18] But, you know, it actually turned out kind of cute. It's kind of this fluffy hair then. But. But that's how I, I thought, what can I. How can I impress upon him how important this is to me that we keep these covenants, you know, and. Oh my gosh, that's. That was probably the wackiest thing I ever did. But I didn't.

John Dehlin [00:39:36] What about. What does it do to your self worth and your sense of vulnerability?

Collette Larsen [00:39:39] Oh, you're just, you're you. It's so hard to trust. It's just so hard to trust you. You know, every time he was late for. From work or any. I mean, you just. I spent so much time crying and I. But I did pour myself into my kids. And I also gained so much weight. I mean, I just, I think emotional eating. I mean, I gained really. I gained like 80 pounds. I.

Collette Larsen [00:40:08] I was probably 80 pounds heavier than I am now, which of course made it even worse because then he found me because I was sort of like, you're going to do this to me then I'm going To do this to you.

Collette Larsen [00:40:18] But then I was less and less attracted. It's just this. It's terrible. Infidelity is awful. If one of you wants to be. I mean, I realize there's all sorts of things that work now for people, but I'm still big on monogamy, fidelity. I mean, it's a big thing for me.

John Dehlin [00:40:37] And so you feel ugly, you feel worse than others. Yes.

Collette Larsen [00:40:40] Oh, oh, yeah. And you, you self sabotage so much and, you know, you blame yourself and, and then you go through these roller. Roller coaster like, I'm gonna be. I'm gonna be great. You know, I'm gonna lose weight and be. I'm gonna have the house clean when he gets home. And. Yeah, and then, and then you just get angry and go, I don't care. I just, you know, so there's just so much of this that goes on. But I think the other thing that happens and this will get into this maybe a little bit later, is that betrayal from my first marriage has been a real anchor for me.

Collette Larsen [00:41:14] With the anger I felt when I felt like the church had betrayed me, I went right back to all those emotions again. It just took me right back to that. And I think that's why my girlfriend and I have had this talk a few times, why she can still so sort of new order Mormon or whatever, and just kind of cafeteria or whatever you want to call it. But I'm just going, I was betrayed. And that makes me so angry. I think it's an anchor back to feelings of betrayal in my marriage.

John Dehlin [00:41:44] Yeah, makes sense.

Collette Larsen [00:41:45] I'm being in a. You know, you're the psychologist. I'm thinking there's a tie in there.

John Dehlin [00:41:51] Well, you're the expert in your life, so you'd know. And what's it like to be active in the church when your husband's been excommunicated, your family's been shamed? What does that do to your activity and to how you feel about the plan of salvation and your ward members, knowing that you kind of. Your husband bears the scarlet letter and you're trying to advance or serve in the church? Was that complicated or not?

Collette Larsen [00:42:18] Well, you know, our ward, actually, I had some conflicting emotions about that because I didn't. People really rallied around him primarily. That was back in the days when they announced it. Like it was announced, I think at priesthood meeting. It had been excommunicated and things. And I almost felt like at one point I started wondering if he was doing this to get attention because people would just rally around and they're determined to get him back and fellowship him. And, you know, that's the way of the Church, isn't it, to love, you know, love the sinner and bring them back. And so I never felt really ostracized.

Collette Larsen [00:43:02] I did think people kind of felt sorry for me a little, but I honestly felt like he kind of reveled in the attention of, let's get him back, you know, and all of that. So not too much. I mean, it was embarrassing to some extent, but, like, we were all on the path to try to get him back.

John Dehlin [00:43:22] Okay. And you served in lots of church colonies throughout that time?

Collette Larsen [00:43:26] Yes, I had. Right before that, I'd been the Young Women's president. I remember talking to the bishop, saying, you know, maybe I should be released from this. This is kind of hard, you know. So I was released from that calling, but I still. I served in lots of callings. Mostly I taught Relief Society, and I loved teaching. And I love Mormons. I really do. I think Mormons are such good people. And I had a lot of support from the people in my wards over the years.

John Dehlin [00:43:54] So how did things end in that first marriage?

Collette Larsen [00:43:58] Well, it ended. It ended. I was 38 years old, five children. He had another affair with his secretary this time, and she was quite a bit younger than me, and it just. It was the end. My little girls with CF were very. My youngest was very sick by this time, and requiring, you know, with cf, you do cpt, chest physiotherapy hours every day on both girls.

Collette Larsen [00:44:30] So my life was really full, and I just couldn't believe it. It was New Year's Eve. My husband and I had watched the ball drop, and then we'd gone up to bed, and I was laying in bed, and the phone rings, and it's his secretary. And she said, is your husband there? I said, he's right here. We're in bed. And she said, I need to talk to him. And he said, is that. And I went, yes. I looked at him. I was actually clueless again, because we were actually doing really well at this point financially. We were doing well. The girls were sick, but I thought our relationship was.

Collette Larsen [00:45:05] In fact, he just bought me this big diamond. He'd just taken me to Europe. I realize now a lot of that was, like, guilt, but, you know, I thought we were doing well. He went over to the other side of the bed, got on the phone, and he started saying, it's okay, baby. You told him. You told him, it's okay, it's okay. And I'm laying There going, are you kidding me? And I realized, here we go again. And that was the beginning of the end of our, of our marriage. So he eventually, I can't remember who served ho. But we ended up getting a divorce.

John Dehlin [00:45:38] So how in the world do you contemplate divorce without a college education, without a career, with five children and two with special needs, and now you're contemplating being on your own? What's that like?

Collette Larsen [00:45:54] It's so scary. I just, I felt like I've got to find a man. I gotta find someone to take care of me because I had a high school education. I mean, I really, really was scared, but.

John Dehlin [00:46:04] But you decided to kick him out and I'm done with you.

Collette Larsen [00:46:07] Well, he left. He left and he, you know, he. Eventually she, you know, they had a baby and, and you know, he was gone and. And then he left his job. And so financially I, I thought at the time, because we were doing quite well, I thought, well, at least, you know, he'll support me with this. That all went away and so we lost our home. You know, we just, we just, we lost everything. You were living where we were living at that time? We were living in North County, San Diego. So we sold our home in lieu of foreclosure. We didn't get anything out of it. And financially we went from doing quite well to just literally nothing within a few months. And a friend of mine actually gave me a job as a part time secretary.

John Dehlin [00:46:49] Where'd you live?

Collette Larsen [00:46:51] I moved into a little, a little tiny little home with five kids.

John Dehlin [00:46:57] How do you do that?

Collette Larsen [00:46:57] I don't know. I can't even remember, honestly. And I didn't get help from that. You know, we did have some savings, but that got eaten up really quick.

John Dehlin [00:47:06] Were you renting this little house?

Collette Larsen [00:47:08] Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:09] Renting with five kids, single mom.

Collette Larsen [00:47:11] Yeah. And not seeing him, you know, very, very little. He, you know, he just, he really just kind of disappeared. So it was very tough. And so I. It's kind of, it's kind of a weird story. I told you it's kind of weird. I don't even know if I want to go there, but maybe I will in a few minutes. But anyway, I kind of got into the. I dated this one guy for a while and totally fell in love with him. Absolutely fell in love with him. But he was not, he wasn't Mormon and he wasn't interested in getting married. And so we, we broke that off. And then I got into the Mormon single dating scene, which is not a fun place to be But. But this guy asked me out and he said, I'm going to marry you on our first date. And he was supposedly this, like, financial advisor.

John Dehlin [00:48:02] Here we go again.

Collette Larsen [00:48:04] And I jumped right into that. We actually eloped to the temple. And I was sealed to him, and I thought, okay, this is my shop.

John Dehlin [00:48:12] How long did you do known him?

Collette Larsen [00:48:13] Oh, not a few months. A few months maybe. Yeah, it was one of those really, really dumb. And within a few months, I realized, this is a disaster.

John Dehlin [00:48:24] But it wasn't a temple marriage. You said eloped to the temple.

Collette Larsen [00:48:27] We did. Yeah, we did.

John Dehlin [00:48:28] So you had to have your sealing canceled first?

Collette Larsen [00:48:33] Yes, yes. Man, this is so long ago, John. I forget that. Yeah, I did have to have my ceiling canceled.

John Dehlin [00:48:42] Was that easy? Was that hard?

Collette Larsen [00:48:43] No, no, that was very difficult. Very hard. They wouldn't let me cancel it until I did get married again. So there was this. Because I wanted it canceled immediately. So, remember, I dated this one guy that I didn't marry for a year. So I was still sealed to my first husband. They would not let me cancel it. And then he was not going to marry me. We dated almost a year. And then right after him, I met this other guy. And then we. By then it had been a year and. And finally, in fact, the cancellation came in right before we were sealed and we literally eloped to the temple.

John Dehlin [00:49:15] And what were your thoughts about that temple cancel? That sealing, cancellation process?

Collette Larsen [00:49:21] I was so angry that I couldn't. I mean, he had a baby. They were married. They were, you know, and they'd got my husband and his new wife had gotten married. They had a baby.

John Dehlin [00:49:29] And he cheated on you multiple times.

Collette Larsen [00:49:31] Oh, many times.

John Dehlin [00:49:32] You should be able to just say no more.

Collette Larsen [00:49:33] Yes. Yes. I just wanted. But what I was told. This is how it was explained to me that the ceiling itself carried all these blessings that I didn't want to divest myself of until I was sealed to another man who could take me to the celestial kingdom. Because I need that, you know, And

John Dehlin [00:49:49] I'm like, you need a man to take you there?

Collette Larsen [00:49:51] Yeah, of course you do. You know, I mean, of course you do. So that was a difficult, difficult process, but even worse on the side. Second one. But anyway, so I jumped, you know, rebounded. Oh, I just. And it was not. It wasn't good. And I actually really like this guy. We're still in touch with each other. We both realized we just were not a good match. He's a good man. I was a good woman. He had five children. I had five children. Hello. You know, what were we thinking? Just. It just. It was not good. And I think he's. I know he's happily married, Matt, now.

Second Marriage, Another Failure, and Losing a Child

Collette Larsen [00:50:26] I'm so happy for him. I was not the woman for him and vice versa. But now we were now sealed in the temple and I'm not going to divorce again because. And he was faithful to me and everything.

Collette Larsen [00:50:38] We just were both extremely unhappy and, of course, a lot going on. And my daughter passed away during this time. And, you know, my youngest daughter, she had a double lung transplant and rejected her lungs. And, you know, I was way more of a mom than I was a wife. I mean, I realized my part in all of this, this story, when I talk about. I can't even believe I'm talking about me, but it was crazy. It was just crazy. So. But here was my thought.

John Dehlin [00:51:09] You had tried to have your daughter be healed, right?

Collette Larsen [00:51:12] Oh, yes. Oh, yeah. Oh, she had so many blessings, and I was. She had this one blessing.

John Dehlin [00:51:18] Why did you have blessings?

Collette Larsen [00:51:19] Because I believed in the power of the priesthood. I believed it was God's, you know, working on Earth. And she was so. She was so incredible. She had fought so hard for her life.

John Dehlin [00:51:35] Did she know she had a terminal illness?

Collette Larsen [00:51:37] Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. She was 14 when she passed away, and she fought. So she had this double lung transplant.

John Dehlin [00:51:44] What was her name?

Collette Larsen [00:51:45] Lexi. Alexis, but Lexi is what we called her. And she was just this bright, beautiful light. So spunky. So anyway, she had numerous, numerous blessings, but she finally had a double lung transplant in San Diego. And I remember these three men that I adored so much. My. My bishop Rick. They came and they. After she was in. After her transplant, the transplant went beautifully, and then within a few days, she started rejecting her lungs and she was put in a medically induced coma. For three months, she was in this medically induced coma, and we didn't know if she would come. I mean, I just didn't know from day to day whether she would live.

Collette Larsen [00:52:29] And they came and numerous blessings, but they gave her this powerful blessing that I was there for, and they blessed her that she would be healed, that she would live a long, productive life and everything. And I was just like, thank you. I was so. It was like a done deal for me, you know, really, I had that much faith in the power of the priesthood. I knew she was going to be fine. Well, these three months left her paralyzed from the waist down. So she. Her lungs started working again, but she. And eventually she walked with a kid with a walker and cane and braces and.

Collette Larsen [00:53:03] But but anyway, 18 months later, she did finally reject her lungs completely, and she passed away at 14, so. And that 18 months was so hard, you know, just so hard. And I can't. I was so confused because she'd had these blessings, and I just. I knew that she was going to be okay.

John Dehlin [00:53:22] And did she think she was going to be okay?

Collette Larsen [00:53:25] Oh, yeah. Yeah, she did.

John Dehlin [00:53:27] Do you remember talking to her about her getting worse but having had the blessing, what was that like for her?

Collette Larsen [00:53:33] We had lots of conversations. She even wore this shirt that said, I believe in miracles, right towards the very end. I said, you are the miracle. I believe in miracles, too, and you are the miracle.

John Dehlin [00:53:52] And

Collette Larsen [00:53:56] the night before she passed away, because we kept thinking, but, you know, she just. She was dying, and you could see she couldn't breathe. And I was holding her and she. She could hardly talk, but we had these three squeezes that meant, I love you. And she. I was sleeping with her by then, so I could carry her into the bathroom and stuff up. And she squeezed my hand three times. And I said, honey, what? And she said, thank you. I said, for what? She said, for everything.

Collette Larsen [00:54:27] And she said, I'm not giving up, but I have to let go. She died the next morning, but she just. Just. I'm sorry. Wow. That was in 95. I will share something that strengthened my faith because I was very confused about the fact that this blessing didn't come to pass the way I thought it should. But I was holding her as she died. I was holding her in my arms. And this is something I'm still continuing confused about, John, because did I imagine this? But as I held her, I knew the moment that her spirit left her body, I felt her because she got. You know, I've been holding her for an hour, and she was down to about 50 pounds.

Collette Larsen [00:55:21] But still, you know, I was on the bed and I. And it was. She was heavy. And all of a sudden I just felt this lightness like. Like her spirit. And then I realized she looked up at me and then I went, she's gone. And I literally. My arms lifted up. So I believe that the spirit leaves the body. I mean, I'm so confused. I just. I say, I don't know anymore, you know, but at the time I thought, you know, and her eyes opened really big just before she passed away. But I know there's not too many parents that hold their children as they pass away.

Collette Larsen [00:55:56] It's really quite a. It's the most. It's the most difficult thing you can imagine. It's Also this beautiful thing in a way, you know. Anyway, I loved my Lexi so much.

John Dehlin [00:56:11] Thank you for sharing that. Sending loving thoughts to Lexi. You had mentioned in your outline having some brothers and maybe even another child kind of leave the church at some point. I just thought we'd kind of.

Collette Larsen [00:56:32] Yeah, let's lighten.

John Dehlin [00:56:34] No, no, no. Just kind of COVID those sorts of things. And we'll begin the very next episode with kind of what rock bottom was like and then how you emerged from it. Okay, so let's.

Collette Larsen [00:56:44] Yes, I did. The oldest of 10 children. I had two of my brothers, actually. I didn't to want if they left the church or I don't know if they've resigned, but they went inactive. And I. I could not figure that out because here we were, you know, we, you know, this. This is the truth. And I, of course, hook, line and sinker, bought into the whole.

Collette Larsen [00:57:08] The only reason you'd ever leave the church is if you wanted to sin or you were just lazy or, you know, those sorts of things. And I loved these brothers so much. But, you know, so sometimes I think, why haven't people asked me about why? But I didn't ask them. You know, it's like we just don't go there. But, you know, one brother had been in a bishopric and. But he went through a divorce and things. So I just thought, oh, there's got to be. But then my other brother and his wife left together. Now, all seven of my brothers. I was seven brothers and two sisters.

Collette Larsen [00:57:38] All of them served missions. We were all married in the temple. I think I was the only one that was sealed later. But, you know, we all this, you know, we were just ticking off the boxes, you know. But this brother and his wife left, and I thought, that is so weird. And then I saw that their lives seemed so happy and full, and so there was some confusion there. Now, my oldest son, when he was getting ready to go on a mission, he announced that he wasn't going to go on a mission and he quit going to church. But this is all when my husband and I were getting a divorce and.

Collette Larsen [00:58:10] And I just felt like that had just, you know, our lives were so chaotic. And my oldest son eventually did just, you know, he married outside the church. He married this incredible girl who escaped from Iran, come over here when she was 8 years old, and I just love her, and they've got three children and. But I was always. I always had this heartache. And I talked to my bishop about my son and I said, I just. He's my he's my oldest son, he's my boy. I. And he said, you've just got to bear your testimony to him every time you have the opportunity. So I've spent the last 20 years or 30 years, whatever, he's, he's 45 now.

Collette Larsen [00:58:47] I mean, I was just constantly bearing my. Bless his heart. He would just smile at me and look at me and nod and say, I love you. And just so I can't imagine what I. And you know, and then, you know, I would go to the temple at least once a month and then sometimes you know, always putting his name on the temple roll, he and his wife, and just certain that, you know, I was going to personally save them.

Collette Larsen [00:59:12] Turns out he really kind of saved me. So those were the. Yeah. And it. So some like. Because then as I watched him and his family and he's a, he's a long distance runner, he runs all over the world and he, you know, I've taken him in as my business partner too. My two sons are my business partners. But he and his children are so moral and good and beautiful and loving. Like going, how is this happening?

John Dehlin [00:59:37] That must have been confusing.

Collette Larsen [00:59:38] Yeah.

Recap and Introduction to Part Two

John Dehlin [00:59:40] All right, so this ends part one of my interview with Collette Larsen. We've taken it to the point where she's had her second marriage fail and a daughter passed away and some people close to her leave the church and we'll see what it's like to hit financial rock bottom. And how does a woman in her mid to late 30s, with 40s, 40s with four children still remaining, how do you pick up and end up building a multi million dollar business and find your own power and find a way to thrive after so much adversity? So thank you for joining us for part one and come right back, don't go away, come right back for part two because there's more to this cool story. Thanks, everybody. Thanks, Klette.

Collette Larsen [01:00:30] Thank you.

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 972

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Sam. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to part two of my interview with Collette Larsen. I'm John Dehlin. This is Mormon Stories podcast. Last episode, Collette talked to us about growing up in Rexburg, Idaho. Her idyllic childhood that was only stained or marred by the guilt and shame she felt sometimes as a very normal, natural teenage girl learning to understand her body and feelings and attractions, and how that led to her getting married way too early, having way too many kids way too early, and how that marriage led to divorce and a second marriage, a child passed away. And that brings us to this point, along with having some of her family members leave the church where she's, I don't know, 38 years old and single, divorced for the second time, actually, I'm

Collette Larsen [00:01:21] probably because that's my first marriage ended at 38. So now I'm in my early 40s.

John Dehlin [00:01:27] So. Early 40s. And this is around what year?

Collette Larsen [00:01:30] Oh, well, it's just, I'm too old to figure this out. I'm not.

John Dehlin [00:01:36] Early 40s sometime.

Collette Larsen [00:01:37] Yeah, yeah, it would have been 25, 23, four years ago because I'm 66 now.

John Dehlin [00:01:41] So what would rock bottom have looked like before you start, you know, your business?

Collette Larsen [00:01:46] Well, creditors. I owe so much money. We did have some, we had insurance, but of course it didn't cover everything. You know, my daughter's three month, she was in intensive care for almost three months. They quit billing me at a million dollars. Okay. So, you know, they, they put a stop gap in. I got this letter that, you know, and, and insurance, I can't remember how much it picked up, but I still had, you know, there was still, I was getting outstanding balance bills all, all the time. And, you know, I was working part time as a secretary. We'd gone through pretty much all of our savings.

Collette Larsen [00:02:25] So I had, you know, the social worker at the CF clinic there, I had taken. Now, remember, I still had another daughter with cf, who, by the way, at this time, I mean, they were just a year apart. Charlie and Lexi were a year apart. And when Lexie died, Charlie started spiraling downhill so rapidly to the point that the doctor started talking to me about she's going to need a double lung transplant within a year or we're going to lose her, too. So, so much going on in my life. And the social worker said, colette, this is what, this is what welfare is for, social welfare.

Collette Larsen [00:03:01] It is for single mothers like you. I'm single by now, and this is what it's for. You know, you've got all these bills and You've got all these health costs. And so I. So I agreed to go to the welfare office in San Diego.

Collette Larsen [00:03:17] Walked in and actually this was right before Lexi passed away because she was still in a wheelchair. I'm getting this old little. Because she hadn't died yet because I had her in a wheelchair and I had Charlie with me and I took a number and had to wait my turn. And as I was walking, watching mostly these mothers go into this welfare office, I just.

Collette Larsen [00:03:38] I just couldn't believe that was me sitting there. You know, I have this entrepreneurial family and, you know, and I just, I couldn't believe. And I. We'd done really well, you know, a few years earlier. I had beautiful home and everything. And here I am sitting in the welfare office and I just remember thinking, I can't go down this road. I am not. I. I don't know what I'm going to do, but I'm going to do something. And I really had hit rock bottom.

John Dehlin [00:04:01] What does it feel like when you hit rock bottom? What are the thoughts you have? It's like, how does it feel?

Collette Larsen [00:04:08] How am I going to do this? What am I going to do? A high school education. So you think about, could I go back to school? I couldn't go back to school. I couldn't afford to hire someone to do what I did at home, you know, so those sorts of things. And this friend of mine was paying me, I think it was 8:50 an hour or something to work. And every time I get a few hours, I'd kind of as his girl Friday. And then trying to make this little bit of money go, you know. And my ward at that time was one. And in fact, even the Cystic Fibrosis foundation one year provided Christmas gifts for my kids.

Collette Larsen [00:04:43] I remember our ward bringing over a tree. And I mean, I was one of those. I didn't ever get. I didn't get money or food or anything. But they did do other things and friends kicked in, family helped with, you know, so I was just barely, Barely.

John Dehlin [00:04:56] What about church welfare?

Collette Larsen [00:04:57] No, I didn't go on church welfare, but they did like bring Christmas gifts and they did bring food over occasionally. But I never actually went in and said, I need to go on welfare. Because what happened is my brother approached me and he said, I know this scientist, this company, he was getting involved with this company and he said it was a network marketing company. Now I realize as I'm talking here that especially in Utah, in California, I didn't feel this. But I know there's A lot of stereotypical remarks and things that come out. Well, I just saw it as an option and I didn't actually do.

Collette Larsen [00:05:34] My brother had been providing these nutritional products for Charlie to be on and she was doing better and I was feeling better. And I thought, these seem to be making a difference getting this. And children with cystic fibrosis, their body doesn't metabolize their food the way it should. So they really. One of the first things doctors have you do is put children on really high quality nutritional supplements. So that's what this company was. And I could see it was making a difference. So I thought, I'm going to give this a try. Well, that's a whole nother story in and of itself. But I started approaching a few friends and you know, they weren't very interested at first, but then a couple said, I'll try the product.

Collette Larsen [00:06:12] And this was actually in 1994. This company was only two years old and the first convention was coming up. I couldn't. It was in Las Vegas. I took three girlfriends with me. We shared. I packed my lunch. I mean, you know, But I remember sitting in that audience and watching the top distributor at that company and he was just like this normal guy. He had this Energizer bunny he put down, he said, you just keep going. You keep going. And I was watching him going, you know, I think I can do this. Well, I did it.

Building a Career Through Network Marketing

John Dehlin [00:06:44] The point that I want to really highlight, and I agree there are a lot of, you know, skeptics about multi level marketing network companies. And there have been a lot of problems with various companies. I wouldn't want that to sidetrack our listeners from the fact that you were a single mom with four kids. One who was just passed away.

Collette Larsen [00:07:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:07] One had passed away. One was still very ill, very sick. You're bankrupt with bills and you're needing some job something and you're needing a job that would allow you to still take care of these kids to stay at home.

Collette Larsen [00:07:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:21] So I mean that whatever. Anyone could judge. Right. What was it about that job?

Collette Larsen [00:07:26] That was my only option. I could do it from home. I could do it about a product that I could talk about, a product I was passionate about.

John Dehlin [00:07:32] Because it had helped your daughter or you felt that it helped your daughter.

Collette Larsen [00:07:35] I know that it had. I mean, it did.

John Dehlin [00:07:38] And it was a supplement company.

Collette Larsen [00:07:39] Yes. And a wonderful company. And I, you know, I know people have different experiences. Mine has been incredible. I feel like if you. I got lucky, let's face it, I was in the right Place.

John Dehlin [00:07:51] You were early.

Collette Larsen [00:07:53] Well, it's not even that because I've sponsored people that make more money than I do, but it's a fair. It's a very fair compensation plan. And you got paid for and you could be. People didn't have to sign up either. They could just become customers. So I brought my girlfriends. I remember a couple girlfriends. I said, you know, they weren't interested. And I just said I'd done this meeting and neither one of them were interested. And I said, listen, for a year you've been saying you'd do anything to support me. I need you to get involved. I need you to just be on these vitamins for me.

Collette Larsen [00:08:21] And they both went, okay. You know, and so it kind of. I think a lot in the beginning, maybe a lot of people got involved just because this is something they were doing anyway so maybe they could buy them from me. But it just started growing and growing and growing. And it just. The next year I went to convention and this was before they had any downline management or anything. I didn't have a computer or anything. And it came time for the top earning distributor of the year to come up. And you know, it was a new company, so I wasn't making a trim it, but it was me.

Collette Larsen [00:08:51] And I remember going up on that stage going, this is me. I mean, I'm doing this. It was just so empowering to do something and to do it on my own. And I mean, it's not your own. You have a team and everything else. But I made a decision, I had an intention and I was doing it.

John Dehlin [00:09:07] Would you rather not mention the company or are you okay mentioning?

Collette Larsen [00:09:09] Oh, I love. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:09:10] What's the company?

Collette Larsen [00:09:11] Usana.

John Dehlin [00:09:11] Usana.

Collette Larsen [00:09:12] I love Usana.

John Dehlin [00:09:13] And they're still around?

Collette Larsen [00:09:14] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:09:14] Okay.

Collette Larsen [00:09:15] 26 years. I'm basically retired now. So I'm not. I'm not sponsoring people anymore. My sons are my partners. But it just, it was a wonderful company with integrity and fabulous based, where it's Salt Lake City, but they're in like 23 countries or something.

John Dehlin [00:09:28] Okay. And talk about that first year because sales is a. It's kind of a sales job. Right? I mean.

Collette Larsen [00:09:36] Right, right.

John Dehlin [00:09:36] And sales, you just get beat up. Right. And you get discouraged. And so talk about that first year. You've seen the Energizer Bunny thing. You know, you're like, I got to do this because I don't know what else I'll do. Yeah. Talk about those moments of rejection and self doubt as a single mom, just because I'm guessing It wasn't just rags to riches in 12 minutes.

Collette Larsen [00:10:00] No, it's so.

John Dehlin [00:10:01] It's so much talk about managing a new career with kids.

Collette Larsen [00:10:05] And, well, my children became. They were my cheerleaders. They kind of. And they were little then. I mean, they're teenagers. But, you know, Charlie was only, you know, she wasn't even a teenager yet, I don't think, anyway. But they. You know, they were still young, but they were like, go, Mom. You know, they were helping me. I was sending out letters. I was having meetings in my home, and sometimes I'd invite 40 people and, like, three would show up. And. But I just. I told my children, I'm going to do this every Tuesday night in our home. This was back in the days when you had meetings in your home, you know, and I would make our little shakes and have little samples and everything. And sometimes it was just my kids sitting on the couch, but I said, we're going to do it anyway. I've made this commitment.

John Dehlin [00:10:44] What kept you going?

Collette Larsen [00:10:47] Children? And then I started. I got a check. I got a check for $100, you know, my first month. And, you know, your auto order, you had to be on $100 worth of products, you know. And so my brother had been providing products for my daughter Charlie to be on. But he said. And he'd done that for about six months. And he said, colette, if you could. If you could bring in a couple people, you could make a hundred dollars. And I didn't even understand how the compensation plan worked or anything, but I do remember, you know, I sponsored a couple people, had sold a few products to a few people.

Collette Larsen [00:11:15] And I remember that after almost. When that hundred dollars was due to pay for my own product, there was a check in my mailbox. It had Usana in the corner. I opened it up, it was $100, and I sat on the curb and just started crying. And I've told people since my son, who was a teenager at the time, he said, if I'd worked that hard for a month, day and night and doing meetings, and I got 100, I'd sit, you know, I'd sit down correct, too, you know. But then the next week I got another hundred, and they paid weekly. And then I didn't get a check, and then it went to 200, and it was just, you know, just kind of did that.

Collette Larsen [00:11:49] And before long, I was making four or five hundred dollars, and I was, you know, starting to be able to pay up some of the bills. And it took me years to get out of Debt, I mean, so I was doing well and. But you know, I was determined to pay everyone off, you know that. And so I think it took me about eight years to get completely out of debt.

John Dehlin [00:12:10] But I heard someone say once you have to, you have to learn how to fail before you can learn how to succeed. Was that true? Did you learn how to fail?

Collette Larsen [00:12:18] I failed. And yes, I got rejection. But someone I heard, or I read, I was reading, I was going to the library and getting all the books I could, not only on our industry, but also on motivation and self progress and all those things. You know, I became a real student of, you know, all of that. I just couldn't get enough of it, of self improvement, just anything I could do to.

John Dehlin [00:12:41] Because you'd been beaten down?

Collette Larsen [00:12:42] Oh, totally. And I started believing in myself, you know, I really started believing in myself. How, you know, I think a lot of it was attached to actually earning my own income. You know, I'd never done that before. I'd always relied on a man to support me. And all of a sudden there's my name and there's a number and I get to take it to my account. And, you know, how did that feel? It felt great. And I started saying to the kids, you know, once I get to a certain level, then I, you know, I'm going to take it to Disneyland. I mean, making promises to my children and having them just get so excited for me.

Collette Larsen [00:13:16] And then when I did go through rejection, it was hard not to take it personally. But I heard some, or I read, I think someone said, you know, if you went into a restaurant and the waitress came up and said, would you like a cup of coffee? And you go, no, thank you.

Collette Larsen [00:13:30] The ray just doesn't go in the back room and start crying, you know, because she's been rejected. You have to think of it that way. You're offering something, it's going to be for some people and it's not going to be for others. So I quit taking it so personally. And I think I kind of relaxed and didn't seem so desperate. And it's almost like people were attracted to me and our teams. And also I took the focus off.

Collette Larsen [00:13:54] I was determined to help them start earning income too. And I tried to meet them where they were. Some wanted to do, you know, some wanted to be diamond directors. Other people wanted to make $300 a month, you know, enough to pay for their car payment. And so we would sit down and strategize. And it is a really fair compensation plan. And you know, Just really good products. And then back then, in 98, I think, USANA announced that they were going to open up Australia. I'm a single mom. My kids. Charlie just graduated from high school, so I've got four children. And we're staying at the Marriott for the convention.

Collette Larsen [00:14:31] And we go back to the room, and my kids are all just jumping on the beds and being crazy. And my oldest son said, mom, we should just go to Australia. And I looked at him and I said, why not? And so we put our. By then, I'd gotten in a little home. We put it up for rent. We moved to Australia for a year. I took all four of them. What an experience we had. And so we helped open that market. And I think, now, what's that you've gone through? That's crazy.

John Dehlin [00:14:55] Divorced twice, single mom, poverty.

Collette Larsen [00:14:59] I know, I know.

John Dehlin [00:15:00] And you're. And all of a sudden, you're opening a branch.

Collette Larsen [00:15:03] I know it's crazy, but how did

John Dehlin [00:15:05] you get the confidence that you could do that?

Collette Larsen [00:15:07] Well, I started speaking, you know, as I started rising through the ranks. Then I remember the first time they asked me to. And remember, I was up doing meetings in front of people. Every time I did it, I got, like, a little more confident. I was meeting with businessmen, and I was, you know, what's that like, men? It was okay. I was, how do you get your power?

John Dehlin [00:15:28] How do you believe in yourself, in a man's world?

Collette Larsen [00:15:30] I think a lot of it was the reading I was doing.

John Dehlin [00:15:32] And what are some books that really helped?

Collette Larsen [00:15:35] Oh, my goodness. I read. Yeah. I went back to Norman, Vincent, Peale, even, and those Augmentino. And then I read every book I could on our industry.

John Dehlin [00:15:44] And, like, the greatest salesman. The world's greatest salesman.

Collette Larsen [00:15:48] Salesman in the world. Yes, Augmentino. Oh. I mean, I, I, I read voraciously.

John Dehlin [00:15:53] How to win friends and influence people.

Collette Larsen [00:15:55] Yes. That, all that classic, all the stuff, 60s sales literature. And then I would do these intentions in the morning, and, And I always call it getting the frog off my plate. So things I was really scared to do, calls I was scared to make, I just make them. And. But, you know, the more, the more success you get, the better you feel. And my kids were like, you go, Mom. And then Usana started having me speak. So I was speaking all over. And at first I was really fumbling and struggling, but then, you know, and then people come up and go, my gosh, if you can do this, I can do this.

Collette Larsen [00:16:27] And my story is that, you know, because I read J.K. rowling said almost. I thought it was profound. Before she wrote the Harry Potter series, I mean, she went through her own financial crisis and she said hitting rock bottom provided a very solid foundation on which to build the life of my dreams. I'm paraphrasing, but I went, that's it. I mean, hitting that rock bottom, there's nowhere else to go. And I built that foundation telling my own story. And of course, Charlie is there with me now. And she was in Australia speaking and she's fighting for her life at this point, but the products are really helping her.

Collette Larsen [00:17:08] So it was a powerful, compelling story and I got really good at it and I started feeling very empowered. And then the money, of course, started coming in and we've never lived, you know, people I know, the network marketing, the Flash, I've, you know, I think I've had three cars in the last 20 years, you know, and my, like I drive a 2007 Lexus now. I love it. I never, I think because of where I've been.

John Dehlin [00:17:34] It's 11 years old though.

Collette Larsen [00:17:36] Yeah, yeah. Because of where I've been, I just, I never went in for the, you know, you see, I wear a wedding. I mean, I just, the Flash never even appealed to me.

Traveling the World and Encountering New Perspectives

John Dehlin [00:17:46] Well, how long were you in Australia?

Collette Larsen [00:17:48] A year.

John Dehlin [00:17:49] Okay. And then you just keep advancing, just kept going.

Collette Larsen [00:17:52] I helped open Korea, helped. We moved to Hong Kong, took my kids. You know, we just, in fact, my, my two older sons were married by the time we went to home calling. And my, I like to say my granddaughter, that's 18, you know, was made in Hong Kong because she got pregnant. You know, my daughter in law got pregnant there. So at that point I started bringing my children in as my sons, in as my partners. And yeah, we've just continued to grow it and we've been, you know, we've done very well on USANA. We've been top distributors for, you know, last 20 something years.

John Dehlin [00:18:24] How many?

Collette Larsen [00:18:25] Over 20 years.

John Dehlin [00:18:26] You were the top distributors?

Collette Larsen [00:18:27] No, we've been among the top.

John Dehlin [00:18:29] Over 20 years.

Collette Larsen [00:18:29] Yeah, I was the top distributor, I think for 14 years. And then that's amazing. And then they've opened China and they've all, they've dusted me, you know, they've flown past. But we're still in the U.S. i think we're number two or three, something like that.

John Dehlin [00:18:41] Wow.

Collette Larsen [00:18:42] Yeah. So we've been.

John Dehlin [00:18:43] And again, I'm just trying to imagine this single mom with four kids opening up Hong Kong. I know, you know, crazy like Korea, like I'd be scared to do that. I'd be super scared. I've got all this privilege.

Collette Larsen [00:18:57] Do you know, I think what happens, John, is when you've, man, when you've been punched down so much, it's like, what's the worst that can happen? It's already happened, you know, when you've buried a child, when you've fought your children's lives and when you've, you know, been betrayed by a man that you loved and when you've been absolutely so broke that you didn't know, it's like, what's, it's already happened, so why not just go for it kind of, you know, so that's what I did.

John Dehlin [00:19:25] It's really inspiring.

Collette Larsen [00:19:26] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:19:27] So as you were traveling around the world and seeing all these different faith traditions and cultures and types of people, does that, what does that do?

Collette Larsen [00:19:36] Mind blown.

John Dehlin [00:19:37] Mind blown to your Rexburg, Idaho brain. To your Pollyanna Mormon.

Collette Larsen [00:19:43] I know. I remember being in Hong Kong and going to visit various temples and things in Asia around Asian. The people were so devout, just praying and lighting their incense. And I'm just. And I'm seeing how intense they are and how, I mean, it's so real for them. It's absolutely true for them. I had an experience in Australia. I remember when I first got to Australia, we were going to the Mormon Church there and it was Australia Day. And the men there were wearing their Australia ties, you know, with their. And they all stood up to sing their national anthem. And I stood up and I was looking around.

Collette Larsen [00:20:16] This sounds so terrible because I was so American centric, I guess, is what you'd call it, because I knew that this was the Promised land. I mean, isn't that what we're taught? America was preserved. This is the Promised land. We are, we are kind of elite. And I'm seeing all these Australians that are so emotional singing their national anthem. And I'm going, but they're members of the church. Surely they know that America is the promised land. And so just little things like that so started cracking, you know, that, that what, what's going on here. And then seeing these faith traditions, seeing, seeing the Buddhist traditions and having them, you know, burn.

Collette Larsen [00:20:54] They would make paper mache things that were important to them and they'd burn them so that they would be with them in the next life. And they believed it 100%. So you start going, wow. And then you start doing the math about how many Mormons there are and how many people are in the world and you start going, baby, we don't have the One and only true church. So certainly in my world travels that that idea started, you know, percolating in my brain.

John Dehlin [00:21:20] But you're still faithful when you find your third. So talk a little bit about your. Whatever you want to say about the story of your third husband.

Collette Larsen [00:21:27] Oh, okay.

John Dehlin [00:21:28] Your current soulmate. Right.

Collette Larsen [00:21:29] Like the love of my life figured it out. Yes. I finally.

John Dehlin [00:21:33] How do you find love?

Collette Larsen [00:21:33] Third time is the truth.

John Dehlin [00:21:34] How do you ever trust that you could get back on that marriage horse? Why would you ever want to?

Collette Larsen [00:21:38] So I told you that I dated a man for a year that was not a member that I fell head over heels with. He was just. And maybe I'll just say. Should I say go for it if you want. It's so. It's such a crazy story. How do I condense it? When my first husband was leaving me, I got a call from a very angry father begging me to keep my husband away from his wife. He loved his wife. He loved his daughter. He blamed me. Can't you keep your husband faithful? And I kind of, you know, we were just mad at each other, yelling at each other.

Collette Larsen [00:22:09] And he had a baby. And I said, well, guess what? I've got five and everything else. And he, oh, you know, and two of them are so sick. And I thought he was way younger than me because my husband's secretary was way younger than me. And at one point I said to him, you know, I have five kids. I'm 38 years old. My life is over. And he was quiet for me. And he said, you're 38. I'm 41. You know, and. Which was kind of weird. But anyway, he called the next day to apologize for yelling at me. And he just said, I'm just in so much pain, and I'm so sorry.

Collette Larsen [00:22:40] Tell me about your daughter. So we had this very nice conversation. But, you know, he's the wife of the woman my husband is having. I mean, he's the husband of the woman my. You get it? You get it? The secretary's husband.

John Dehlin [00:22:51] The ex husband of your ex husband's mistress.

Collette Larsen [00:22:57] My kids go, mom and dad so and so, you know, try to do this little thing. But anyway, he at one point. So he called to check on me a few days later. Please let me know. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm at fault here, too. And could I bring a pizza over or whatever? And I didn't want him to come over, but he wanted to talk to me. And I said, well, I'm taking my girls for ymca. So we were going to meet and I was just going to meet him, and I see this gorgeous guy walking toward me and I'm going, that can't be.

Collette Larsen [00:23:31] And I just went, oh, my gosh. I mean, he's so muscular, he's so fit. And, you know, my husband wasn't. And his beautiful head, I mean, it's just gorgeous. You know, I'm thinking, what in the world? Anyway, so I meet him and immediately I'm thinking, he's just way too cute for her, his wife, to be, you know, not cheated, cheating on him. So through a series of, you know, we keep calling and we kind of fall for each other, but it's so, so crazy, isn't it? And I fell in love with him and he's like this lazy Lutheran and. But it was so. It was on a broken foundation.

Collette Larsen [00:24:09] Mostly we cried about how could they have done this to us, you know, that sort of thing. We just, you know, we just needed comfort. We comforted each other.

John Dehlin [00:24:15] You didn't marry that first time?

Collette Larsen [00:24:16] No. So a whole year. And then I. Then I, you know, bounced into this second marriage of mine and he went away.

John Dehlin [00:24:23] Was part of it that he wasn't lds?

Collette Larsen [00:24:25] Yeah. Oh, yeah. He wasn't going to. He wasn't interested in the church at all.

John Dehlin [00:24:28] You were going to marry a non Mormon?

Collette Larsen [00:24:29] He was not only not interested, he was so angry that a Mormon had

John Dehlin [00:24:34] an affair with his son, had wrecked his own marriage.

Collette Larsen [00:24:36] Because I thought you Mormons didn't do this, you know, I mean, he loved his wife, he adored his daughter, so there was all that too. And I'm going, no, don't judge us all by all that sort of stuff. So anyway, he went his separate way. I didn't see him or talk to

John Dehlin [00:24:51] him at all for how many years?

Collette Larsen [00:24:54] Until my daughter died. And then he showed up at the funeral and I was like, oh, my goodness. But he had been following the news, had been covering her a lot. And so he knew and he just showed up. And I thought that was so sweet, but I was married at the time. But then, then that marriage fell apart, but I was never going to get married again. So years later, like 12 years later, he runs into my daughter Charlie and her fiance at the time at a little surf shop. And he says, how's your mom? And, you know, I was single. And Charlie said, you know, maybe you ought to give her a call.

A Complicated Relationship and Return to the Temple

Collette Larsen [00:25:22] So he calls me. This is about 15 years ago now, he calls. And I'm like, oh, my gosh. You know, we already. He Already broke my heart. He's still not Mormon, and I'm so Mormon. But anyway, he said, can I just come over? So he came over one Sunday afternoon, and. And we talked and we talked for hours. And I just said, you know, we. You're still her dad. Her dad. You know, they're still married. Our exes are married to each other. And. And I'm still Mormon. And. And so anyway, I just wasn't interested. So it was like midnight, and he. And he was leaving, and he said, well, can.

Collette Larsen [00:25:59] Can I at least give you a hug good night? And I said, I hug everybody. And he said, not like this, you don't. He just grabbed me, and my heart just exploded. And it has. It has stayed exploded ever since. I mean, basically, you know, we were together. I didn't marry him for three years. He proposed like, three times. I just wasn't going to go there. But I.

John Dehlin [00:26:21] Because you had been betrayed.

Collette Larsen [00:26:22] Yes. I was going to risk. I wasn't going to risk it again. So he finally joined the church. He took the discussions that was a

John Dehlin [00:26:31] requirement on your part.

Collette Larsen [00:26:32] Absolutely. Three times. Missionary discussions. He finally said, okay, I'll do.

John Dehlin [00:26:38] Do you think he got a testimony? Did he just convince himself he had a testimony? Did he just lie to you?

Collette Larsen [00:26:44] No, I think he convinced himself that it was as good as Lutheranism. I mean, it's just, you know, why not?

John Dehlin [00:26:49] If I have to do this to get the woman? But then. Did he. It's not lying, though. It's just.

Collette Larsen [00:26:54] No, no. And the ward was great. He loved the ward, but he never really knew the doctrine or anything. I mean, he never read the Book of Mormon or any. You know, he didn't know the doctrine other than what I would try to explain to him. He really got hung up on some things. Like, some of the stuff he got hung up on was so weird. Like, Hitler. Like, where is Hitler right now? Like, does that matter? He. He didn't want there to be a second chance for Hitler. You know, he wants him to be an ally. And I would go, honey. And then he had this thing about a God that would allow this wonderful family going to church to be hit by a drunk driver. And he survives and they're all. He just. The whole suffering thing.

John Dehlin [00:27:33] He's a thinker.

Collette Larsen [00:27:34] Yeah, he just. He just couldn't get his mind around all of that. But he joined, and he was active in the ward. He was the oldest man in elders quorum, but he was always moving people. He's very strong. Very. Anyway, and the board members loved him. But he. But then I. That wasn't good enough. He was going to go to the temple. He has to go to the temple. That was probably not the wisest move on my part.

John Dehlin [00:27:57] Why? What happened?

Collette Larsen [00:27:58] It was a disaster for me. I mean, he.

John Dehlin [00:28:00] Do you want to say his name?

Collette Larsen [00:28:01] Rick. Yes. Rick Mazzy, the love of my life. He doesn't know I'm doing this today because I'm in Salt Lake. He's going to go.

John Dehlin [00:28:08] What?

Collette Larsen [00:28:09] But he just. He supports everything I do. And so he. He finally agreed to go to the temple. And he got. He was so nervous about it, and I kind of tried to prepare him, but I didn't. And I looked over at him, and he was just. Sweat was just pouring off him. He had his clothes on wrong. You know, I don't know how much I can say, but he put it on the wrong side. Men were trying to help him. He was fumbling, and he. He couldn't get back just to listen to. And I was. I was like, oh, my gosh. I'm so. You know, And.

Collette Larsen [00:28:45] And we come out and he's like, what was that? And he goes, what's this? You know, he points to his head and our stake president is there. And he goes, what is with the hat? And. And our stake president, or the guy with him, said, it's a symbol for a crown that a king would wear. And he goes, what?

Collette Larsen [00:29:09] He was just like. You know, he's so literal, and he's so. You know, it just was. Oh, it was not good. But I was so thrilled that it was coming up. It was coming up on Valentine's Day, and he gave me this beautiful gift and this card, and he said, I know, honey. I know it means so much to you. Let's make this for eternity. And so he. You know, because I wanted to be sealed to him. So that kind of started the real. Yeah, that. That. Is that going down. That whole thing, because I had to get another ceiling canceled.

John Dehlin [00:29:42] Was that hard?

Collette Larsen [00:29:42] Oh, my gosh. That was just horrific. The letter they gave me, they wanted me to go back to after my first marriage. List any. Anything I might have done.

John Dehlin [00:29:54] Sexual? Like sexual?

Collette Larsen [00:29:55] Yes, yes. Any sexual. I'm going, oh, my gosh. Did we. I know we crossed the line. You know, you can't. It's years ago, and it just. Here's something. This is pretty maybe bold, or I don't know if it's even appropriate, but when you've been married for 21 years and now you're suddenly single and you're not Supposed to do anything. And you're so used to being. You're so used to intimacy and then you're falling in love and like, you're not supposed to, like, French kiss or whatever. It's like. So, I mean, it's absolutely unrealistic, I think.

John Dehlin [00:30:26] Plus, do you want to marry a third time? Having never been, like, good.

Collette Larsen [00:30:32] Yeah. The second.

John Dehlin [00:30:33] You know where I'm going.

Collette Larsen [00:30:33] Yeah. If I had moved in with my second husband, we would have never gotten married. I knew almost immediately we just weren't compatible. So. No, but even with. Even with Rick, I was going to be, you know, I wanted to be. We tried to be really good.

John Dehlin [00:30:46] You know, it's that childhood shame again.

Collette Larsen [00:30:48] Just so dumb. It comes flooding back and it's just. I don't know, I think it's so unreasonable.

John Dehlin [00:30:54] And the church. So one of the common. One of the statements in the Book of Mormon is, woe unto those who call good evil and evil good. If. What would you. You have the choice, good or evil. Teaching someone to rush into marriage without knowing them, without even knowing whether you're compatible, good or evil, that's evil.

Collette Larsen [00:31:14] Why it's so damaging to families and the repercussions that go out with your children and everything else. And then you're left so broken and shamed and feeling like a failure. No, I.

John Dehlin [00:31:28] And then getting to know your partner in every way. In every way before you decide to get married and commit the rest of your life to them. Good or evil.

Collette Larsen [00:31:39] That's good. That's good. But that's, you know, that's so against everything that we're taught. But, no, I don't. Yeah, it just. It's. So what does my son say? Bass ackward or whatever. Like, it's just wrong, you know, the way. The way we set it up so.

John Dehlin [00:31:56] The temple ceiling, you're trying to remember.

Collette Larsen [00:31:58] Yeah. And I just. I remember one day just having. You know, because I even had to go back to dates. So I had this old box that says divorce records. And so I'm going back, trying to find dates, and I'm reading the. Some of the court, and I just have. Everything comes flooding back to me, even from my first marriage, things he would say in court and stuff. And I'm just. I'm having kind of this breakdown. And so I decided to, you know, just go see the bishop and just say, this is just.

Collette Larsen [00:32:22] This is so triggering to me. I just love Rick and he wants to be sealed to me. I mean, this is a huge step, you know, So I Go in. And I have this talk with him and this interview. And I'm in North County, San Diego. And this is such a good man. I mean, this is a good man. His son works for us. His son works for Rick on the yard and everything. We just. We really love their family. And so I'm kind of pouring my heart out to him and pretty much done. And I am like, this is just a few years ago. This is like 62, maybe four years ago or so. And he's.

John Dehlin [00:32:54] And by this time, your former husband. What?

Collette Larsen [00:32:57] Oh, he's a temple worker. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:59] The one who Mary D. Hanks would never be able to be.

Collette Larsen [00:33:02] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:33:02] Yeah.

Collette Larsen [00:33:02] Yeah. And so. And I'm also a temple worker, but I make sure I don't go. I know when his ships are. I find out because I don't want to be there when he's there. It's just.

John Dehlin [00:33:11] But for those who didn't hear the first episode, Hanks. Marion D. Hanks had said once. What?

Collette Larsen [00:33:15] Yeah, if he was excommunicated. He said, if you have another affair, if you cheat on your wife again and you're excommunicated again, you will never be rebaptized.

John Dehlin [00:33:24] Which he was.

Collette Larsen [00:33:24] And he was. And now he's a temple worker.

John Dehlin [00:33:26] Now he's a temple worker.

Collette Larsen [00:33:27] He's taken the woman he had. He cheated with. He's taken her through the temple. And, you know, that's. I don't even care. That's fine. It's fine. But it was just like another testimony, another wave hit. Like what? You know, just something else that didn't, you know. Anyway, so I'm meeting with my bishop John. This is kind of embarrassing because I'm 62 or three at 62, I think, at the time. And so he understands, and he goes, we. But we will fill this out. Do the best you can, because I do have one other question I need to ask you. Do you masturbate?

Collette Larsen [00:33:59] Now, this guy is in his 40s, I think, maybe 50, and this is just a few years ago. And I'm telling you, I sit there and I'm going, are you freaking kidding me? I can't get rid of these sexually explicit questions that started when I was 12. I'm in my 60s, and you're asking me this, and I'm just like, I'm dumbfounded. And by the way, he called me last year to apologize because I was. I just went, what did you say?

John Dehlin [00:34:28] Literally.

Collette Larsen [00:34:29] So then I'm so embarrassed about what I said because it was a complete lie, which is embarrassing. To even say that. Because I went, oh, you know, I'm in my 60s. I don't even like sex anymore. That's what I said to him. I didn't know what to say. I just.

John Dehlin [00:34:44] And that's not true.

Collette Larsen [00:34:45] No, that's not true. That's not true. It's not true at all. But I just didn't know what to say. I thought, how dare you ask me that? I'm embarrassed. This could be, you know, I hope none of my kids. My kids are going to go, mom. But isn't that awful that someone. I mean, I think it's terrible for the children, but it's one of the reasons I related to Sam, because it's not just children, it's women in a room with a man asking about her. That it's like, what? I just. Anyway, so I went home. I was sobbing. I told Rick what happened. He called our bishop and said, if I had been there, I would have decked you.

Collette Larsen [00:35:25] I'm going, you're making it worse. Everything was just so. And Rick goes, I don't give a crap. You know, he was so angry about that. So. But that wasn't even. I was still active, although I was so humiliated.

John Dehlin [00:35:40] You know, really quick, we had skipped over Prop 8 and you had been living in California.

Collette Larsen [00:35:43] Talk really quickly about, okay, Prop 8 was just. But, you know, I was all in. And we had a special meeting in our stake, the Del Mar, California stake.

John Dehlin [00:35:52] And you're with Rick at this time?

Collette Larsen [00:35:53] Yeah, we're married. He's with Rick. He's a member. And, you know, it comes down that the prophet has. This comes from God, straight through the prophets, from God, through the Prophet to us. And our stake president is saying, you know, we need to rally the army. We are going to fight this, you know. And so what they want us to do is get up at 5 o' clock in the morning for the next few weeks, you know, like three days a week. And we've got these, you know, the signs that you put in the yards. And we were there, Rick and I were up, and we would meet outside behind this bank and they would give us all these placards, posters and whatever, and we put them up and down the medians all over, you know, all over our area. San Diego.

John Dehlin [00:36:33] What was your. What were you told? The reason for that was? What were you doing?

Collette Larsen [00:36:38] Oh, we're fighting. We're fighting gay marriage. We cannot let you know, we can't change the definition of marriage. Marriage is between one man and one woman. Right in the Proclamation, it says that this is going to ruin monogamous marriage. If people start, you know, gay, the gays start getting married, it's going to ruin all your marriages. I mean, it was just, it was, you know, we need to love them. I'm getting quite passionate about this because it's great. Passion's good anyway. But I was out there pounding, you know, we had our, we were pounding there and then people would come along during the day and take them and the next morning would put them up.

Collette Larsen [00:37:12] And then, then they asked us to rally on the corner so we had banners and, and I was starting and you know, my son that had left the church during this time, he asked, they asked if I could come and babysit because I had a wedding to go to and sure, sure, I love babysitting. And I was up there and they had left and I looked at the wedding announcement. It was these two men that were getting married. And so my son and daughter in law came back and he said, you just supported gay marriage because you watched the kids. And I was like. And I just had this, I love my son.

Collette Larsen [00:37:41] And I just thought, you know, this, something's not right here. This, these are his friends. They're so loving, they're so wonderful. And then I had this trigger back to my cousin that had come committed suicide when I was in my early 20s.

Collette Larsen [00:37:54] He had had therapy and he was no longer gay and he was going around doing firesides for the church and then killed himself. And this was when I was in my early 20s. And I kept thinking back to this beautiful young man that was just a year younger than me. And we were cousins growing up, you know, and I never sized note or anything, but it had to have been, it had to have been, you know, there had to been a correlation there. So I had that going. And then I was on the sidewalk holding a sign going Prop 8, Prop 8. And this car of people drove right in front of me.

Collette Larsen [00:38:29] And this, this woman looked out at me and she said, and she was stopped at the stoplight, she said, why are you doing this? And I just looked at her and we kind of made this eye connection. And I could tell like she was sad, you know, And I just thought, why am I doing this anyway?

Collette Larsen [00:38:48] I'm doing it because God told me that this is what I'm supposed to be doing. But again, another crack like this doesn't feel right to my heart. But you know, obedience, and not only obedience, exact obedience, you know that the first law of heaven, it just pounded into me. So I Thought I was being the righteous Mormon example.

John Dehlin [00:39:15] What did Rick think about Proppy when you first told him?

Collette Larsen [00:39:18] He. He didn't like that we were doing it. But again, his whole thing is, you know, happy wife, happy life. So just, you know, he just supports me. He just loves me. He takes care of me. And. But he. Well, he told me later, after he said. I hated that. I hated every minute of it, but, you know, I just was wanting to believe the church was true. You know, I'd given up coffee, I'd given up everything. You know, I wanted it to be true. Which will bring me to another funny story in a minute. When I finally told him what had happened to me.

John Dehlin [00:39:45] Okay, so back to 2014. The bishop asks you this horrendous question,

Collette Larsen [00:39:50] and I'm trying to get. I'm trying to get a ceiling. And I came home and just.

John Dehlin [00:39:54] Ceiling canceled.

Collette Larsen [00:39:55] Ceiling canceled. So I can be sealed to my real son. Sweetheart, that I'm. That I. I hope there's a life after this, because I want to be with him forever. I really do. So I came home and I just. I told Rick. He called the bishop. He was so angry, and I started crying, and I. It's like years of shame and guilt and repression and just. I just. Anyway, I couldn't quit crying. Rick is holding me, and I said, I'm going to ask to be excommunicated. I want to be excommunicated. He goes, what? What? And I said, I'd never. I've made so many mistakes. I don't know.

Collette Larsen [00:40:27] This kind of goes back to your scrupulosity. I don't know if I was forgiven for everything, and I can't remember everything, and I'm just. I'm worried I've missed something, and so I just want to be excommunicated and start over. And I'm just, like, crying, you know? And there's this place that I go. It's kind of connected with the Usana. It's called Sol Aviv. It's this health retreat just over the border in Mexico. And I just. I was falling apart. I felt like I was on the verge of a nervous breakdown. And I said, I haven't even talked about my daughter's double lung heart, the other daughter, because that's all happened, too.

Collette Larsen [00:41:01] Well, anyway, throw it in when you want. Okay, well, let me. Let me just do the church stuff and maybe we'll go back to that. But just. Anyway, I go down to Senevre, and while I'm there, I get a call from my really good Girlfriend who's teaching Relief Society on the first vision. And we're talking, and she said, do you know there's more than one version of the first vision? I go, no, there's not. I knew it by heart, you know, and. And she goes, no, I'm teaching a lesson. I just actually wanted to get Joseph's actual words. And she said, I. And I just.

Collette Larsen [00:41:31] I just. No, no, you're wrong. There's not. I know there's only one. You know, So I get off the phone and. And I have my computer with me, and I Google Joseph's first vision. And I literally cannot believe what I'm reading.

Collette Larsen [00:41:49] And then I go to lds.org and try to reconcile it, but then I go, how does anyone forget that they saw God? I mean, I get. He's talking to different audiences, you know, I mean, so many people you've had on here. We all have the same things, don't we? And we start on one thread, and it just becomes all this. And it just started.

John Dehlin [00:42:08] But talk about your studies. It's okay to repeat. So, first vision, what are you thinking?

Faith Crisis and Leaving the Church

Collette Larsen [00:42:13] Well, it started with this interview, these sexually explicit questions and the shame and guilt that that brought up. I remembered being a young women's president when I was in my early 20s and going to a bishop about some of the girls in my class, and they'd asked questions to him. It was like, ask the bishop a question. He called me in because he said, one of your girls asked a question in the box where he's supposed to, about oral sex. I go, oh, I'm so sorry. You know, and he goes, what is that? You know, and so. And I'm. And he's 10 years older than me.

Collette Larsen [00:42:42] And now when I think I'm going, you don't What? You know, again, this man, woman. And he's asking me to just explain what that is. And I may be 25, you know, and he's probably 40 or something. And I get thinking back on all this stuff, and I'm just going, it's creepy. It's icky. And it kind of brings all that up. And I start thinking about all that, and then I study the first vision and then.

John Dehlin [00:43:03] And the problem with the first vision for you was.

Collette Larsen [00:43:05] Well, that there were so many different. And that he didn't even tell about it for so long. He didn't. And then there's so many versions of it. And one is Jesus and one is God and the Savior, and one is an angel. And, you know, and then my sister about this Time sends me Denver Snuffer's Communing with the Lord through the Veil or something. And I read that. I'm thinking, okay, I need to just up my game, because I'm having all these. So then I googled Denver Snuffer, and somehow that brings me to Mormon Stories,

John Dehlin [00:43:38] because I interviewed Denver Snuffer.

Collette Larsen [00:43:39] Okay, so this is again, a few years ago, and I'm going, mormon Stories, I listened to.

John Dehlin [00:43:43] And he was excommunicated. 2013, I think.

Collette Larsen [00:43:47] I don't think he'd been. Okay, okay, so maybe he had been examined. I didn't. But anyway, somehow that led me. And then I saw these Mormon stories, and I pulled them up and saw, you know, all these episodes, and I. I started listening. I think it was Margaret. Was it the Toscano? I listened to a few, and I was going. And then I decided to go back to the beginning. And I'm going, I'm just curious what these other. And all of a sudden, because I was feeling so alone in this cognitive. I didn't even know what cognitive dissonance was, you know, but now I understood it.

Collette Larsen [00:44:15] And so I went back to your first. When you're talking about your missionary experience, and, wow, you know, and I. I just start listening and listening. So anyway, I decide. That's right, 2014. I decide to learn everything I can. So I order all these books. Some of Michael Quinn's books, I order in Sacred Loneliness. I ordered Rough Stone Rolling. I. You know, I get all these books. I think my story is so similar because you just go, I'm gonna figure this out. And, you know, this has got to be true. And I start listening to podcasts and reading, and I listen to Doug Fabrizio some.

Collette Larsen [00:44:48] And anyway, and I totally go inside. I push Rick away. Kind of not push him away, but I just retreat. And I start sleeping on the couch. I can't sleep. I mean, I'm up and down all night long because I'm listening. And then I'm going back to sources

John Dehlin [00:45:04] and, you know, CES letter.

Collette Larsen [00:45:07] CES letter. I read that over all night one night, crying through it all and just

John Dehlin [00:45:12] going, what were some of the other big issues besides first vision?

Collette Larsen [00:45:15] Well, then it became. Then I went back to my high school again. My high school days and the whole blacks in the priesthood. It's actually the temple band, but because I remember my cousin bringing a friend who was African American, and I just thought, why? I wonder. That just doesn't seem right. He's such a nice guy. And so those sorts of things Course, Rexburg. There wasn't much diversity or anything, you know, but still, that. That always bothered me. And then when the 78 came and that could, you know, that they could now hold the priesthood, I thought, that's so strange that this unchanging God changed his mind.

Collette Larsen [00:45:52] So that. So I started studying that. And then we had had a Lamanite we had had. After I'd married and moved out, there were still nine children at home, but my parents had taken in it. Little Lamanite girl, you know, Native American. Yeah, Native American girl. They were called Lamanites back then, of course. And I got thinking about her and thinking. And then I read or. One of the. One of the things was. I remember Michael Coe's. I was. Or who's the guy in New Zealand?

John Dehlin [00:46:21] Simon Southerton.

Collette Larsen [00:46:22] Yes. I listened to him.

John Dehlin [00:46:24] What was about Coe and Sotherton, the

Collette Larsen [00:46:27] no evidence, the no DNA for the Book of Mormon. I'm going, no, this is the book. That is my life. I mean, my foundation. And I start like. And then I get onto the priesthood and when it was restored and how. And there's no, you know, all of them. Each thing.

John Dehlin [00:46:45] It just started that there's no evidence for the Melchizedek priesthood restoration at all. None.

Collette Larsen [00:46:50] No evidence. And then I start watching YouTube clips of people who believe that I thought they were bearing their testimony. It turns out she's a fundamentalist LDS bearing her testimony. I thought she was in a More. And then I. Then I start listening to these guys before they blow themselves up, you know, and they're bearing their testimony about, you know, Allah, and I'm going, they're more passionate than I am. So all these things start swirling around in my head and everything, and I'm just. I'm just kind of going crazy. But I've got all these active kids and they're all these grandkids, and I'm this. I'm, you know, I'm the matriarch of this family, and my husband is converted. And I just. Oh, my gosh. My. I was just. I felt like I was in a whirlwind.

John Dehlin [00:47:35] So I could imagine. Well, there's two things. Question one is there are a lot of people that just won't even allow their minds to go there. So. And I. And what I have learned from talking to a lot of people is there has to be an emotional break first, where emotionally you just really realize something is rotten in Denmark. And it's that emotional break that leaves you open to the evidence. So your emotional break was the sexual Explicit question.

Collette Larsen [00:48:02] I think that kind of started it. And then I started, like, you know, because I was ready to be excommunicated. And then as I was. And I go, what if it isn't even true? Like, you barely kind of open what if. What if? That little crack.

John Dehlin [00:48:15] So you have to have that emotional breakfast.

Collette Larsen [00:48:16] Yes. But then you start seeing.

John Dehlin [00:48:18] But then the other thing is, there are a lot of people that would read all that stuff and just go, I can't go down this road. I'm just going to close it up, block it off. What kept you from just saying, I'm in my 60s. I brought my husband into this. All my kids are in it. I'm pushing. I'm putting it on a shelf, pushing it away. Why did you keep going?

Collette Larsen [00:48:35] Well, I did that. I did that a few times. I decided. And then. And I would try to just. I'd try to forget it. But I think once you. You can't unlearn this stuff as you learn it and you realize it's real and it's documented, you can't. You know, it's there. And then you start feeling like you're faking it all the time, you know, like you're sitting in church. And I remember, you know, a few lessons. It was just. I can't remember exactly what was said, but I went, that's not even right. You know, and the. That and the circular thinking I got thinking back about how I had convinced myself that Heavenly Father needed Lexi worse on the other side, you know, but if she'd been, you know, just that circular thinking, you do.

John Dehlin [00:49:13] Wait, other side. Go ahead and say Heavenly Father needed Lexi. But then what?

Collette Larsen [00:49:18] But then. But then. But she had a blessing. And I, you know, I felt like, so if something good happens, then God gets all the praise. I've been blessed. I've obviously been righteous enough. But if it goes the other way, then this is a test and I've got to pass this test. And he obviously needed her because she was so special and all sorts of things.

John Dehlin [00:49:38] Or you had made a mistake.

Collette Larsen [00:49:40] Yes, I might have messed up. I went through a lot of that. Like, what did I do? Why am I being punished?

John Dehlin [00:49:46] So the church wins either way.

Collette Larsen [00:49:48] They win. They win either way. And you lose either way. I mean, really, in some ways, just because of the. The mind bending that you have to do. Well, through all this, I just was struggling, and Rick and I were getting more and more distant because I just. He'd go, what? What's on your mind? I'd go, nothing. Nothing. I'm okay. You know, that sort of thing. Like.

Collette Larsen [00:50:11] So finally we have this little trailer. We went on this little trailer trip up in the Cuyamacas. And I, of course, had my butt in and was listening to Brent, like the 10 hour Brent Metcalf or whatever on this whole trip. And I was so distracted, and he'd go, could you just talk to me? And I'm going, just. And anyway, so I finally take it out and I'm listening to Brent. I'm so energized by Brent's courage, you know, and by his just being just real, you know. And I remember him talking about how his faith just like crumbled all at once. And as I'm walking along, hiking, I'm going, that's happened to me.

Collette Larsen [00:50:45] He's talking about my life. And so I take the butt out of my ear and I say, honey, I need to talk to you. And he goes, what? I go, not here. Not. We're hiking. When we get back to the trailer, I need to sit down and talk to you. So we get back to the trailer and he's like, what is up? And so I go sit down and I look at him and I can't. I'm like, I can't speak. And I just start kind of. I start crying. And he goes, what? And I go, the church isn't true.

Collette Larsen [00:51:18] And he's like, he like the jaw drops. And I go, I don't think the church is true. And I'm crying and everything. He goes, does this mean I can drink coffee? That's what he has to say. Like, my life is falling apart. He goes, does this mean I can drink coffee?

Collette Larsen [00:51:35] Anyway, so I was crying. And then he starts laughing and he comes over and hugs me and goes, I thought it was us. And I'm going, no, no, I love you so, so much. And he thought I was just pulling away from him or something, you know. And so he holds me and I cry and cry and I start telling him. And then I, you know, I go, I've got to. You've got to listen to this. Greg Prince. This, you know, I've got all these things I have to, you know. And he's going, it's okay. We're going to be okay. We're going to be okay.

John Dehlin [00:51:59] And why Greg Prince?

Collette Larsen [00:52:00] Because he was talking about big tent Mormonism. Because at that point I just thought maybe we can still stay active. His daughters joined the church. All our kids, you know, you know, they're just so, you know, Rick's daughter. Yeah, Rick's daughter has joined the church, and so I want him to hear the big tent Mormonism thing. I thought, you know, maybe we can just go as non believers and fake it for our kids and all this, you know, and. But anyway, it's been. We've laughed about that moment so many times. And I said, yes, you can drink coffee and oh, my goodness. And so then we just kind of floated along for a while,

John Dehlin [00:52:35] kept attending

Collette Larsen [00:52:37] somewhat, not all the time, you know,

John Dehlin [00:52:39] became a buffet Mormon, a cafeteria Mormon.

Collette Larsen [00:52:41] Yep, yep. And then the November policy came out and like everyone else, 2015.

John Dehlin [00:52:48] November, November. What'd you.

Collette Larsen [00:52:50] I thought it was a joke. I thought it was a hoax, you know, and I just. I could not believe it. But I still didn't, you know, I was. I was just sickened by it. I couldn't get enough of learning about it.

John Dehlin [00:53:01] What did you. What made. What made you sick about it?

Collette Larsen [00:53:05] Children not being. I mean, innocent children. The articles of faith, you know, that we believe that, you know, and innocent children, what, that they can't be baptized if they have a gay parent? If they're living with a gay parent? I just thought. I couldn't imagine that. I thought it was a hoax. That can't possibly be true. This. That can't possibly be true.

John Dehlin [00:53:24] But you had fought, you know.

Collette Larsen [00:53:25] Yeah, I know, but I had. I realized I was wrong on that.

John Dehlin [00:53:28] Okay. Okay.

Collette Larsen [00:53:29] Some time ago, I knew that. I knew that somehow they'd gotten that wrong. Kind of like they've gotten a few other things wrong now, you know, and now I was reading the essays and, you know, they were, you know, saying, we got this wrong, kind of, you know, we disavow this and that. And so I go, this, but this can't. And then I was. I was so upset about that and, you know, even talk to my kids about it and everything, but, you know, it's okay. It's of kind God's will. Mom, we don't understand. We'll understand later, that sort of thing.

Collette Larsen [00:53:57] And then, John, when Russell Nelson and Wendy, I think they were in Hawaii, and I live. I watched the live stream of him saying that this had been revelation. And I remember closing my computer. I'm not even talking direct, but closing my computer and going, I'm resigning. Which was a huge, huge thing for me.

Collette Larsen [00:54:20] And so I talked to Rick about it. I said, I'm resigning. He goes, oh, my goodness. And he goes, I don't know if I can. I'm going, you don't have to. And he said, I might even still Keep going. I go, that's fine, honey, but I'm done. I'm not going back ever. I'm resigning. I filled out the paperwork. It sat on my table for about three days. I didn't. I couldn't even bring myself to take it at the post office, but I said, take it, please, and he mailed it, and I resigned. And then. And then he followed me a few months later.

John Dehlin [00:54:46] But that's a scary decision, to resign.

Collette Larsen [00:54:49] Scary. It's so scary when you have siblings, you know, I guess seven of my siblings are very active. Excuse me.

John Dehlin [00:54:58] And kids.

Collette Larsen [00:54:59] My mom. Oh, my beautiful, sweet mother.

John Dehlin [00:55:02] So a lot of people are just like, okay, I'm either gonna just keep faking it or I'll just hide it. Either quietly resign or just stop going, but definitely not do anything to upset Mom, Grandma. Upset my kids could hurt my career. I'm sure you were wondering about. There are a few Mormons working for you, Sana. Yeah, right.

Collette Larsen [00:55:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:24] So I could imagine you saying just for business alone.

Collette Larsen [00:55:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:27] So how did you.

Collette Larsen [00:55:28] Well, by then, I wasn't doing so much. My sons were mostly running the business. But I also. I think I have quite a bit of. I mean, you know, people know me, and they know that I come from my heart. And I did have. I really did go through some anger through that, through that whole policy and everything. But I've kind of let a lot of that go, and I'm really just trying to love on people. And, yeah, it's changed my relationships, for sure. Some of them are much better, and some of them are not as good.

John Dehlin [00:56:04] So it did have consequences.

Collette Larsen [00:56:05] Oh, yes, absolutely. My beautiful oldest daughter, when I told her, I mean, she just. She cried. Her. She's so. You know, she's a returned missionary. I sent my kids on missions. I, you know, you know, the whole thing. And she and her husband are very, very active back still. Oh, yeah. In the D.C. area. I think he's young men's president now. And they're just. They're incredible people and incredible parents. But she even said. She even said, mom, you're so old. Why don't you just fake it? You're not. You don't have that much time left. You know, think of your grandkids. And, you know, I'd always done my testimony and laminated it and given my.

Collette Larsen [00:56:37] All my children, my grandchildren, as they were baptized, they got their whole, you know, the quad from grandma with her testimony in the front and everything. And it's kind of a tradition and a ritual and, you know, that Quit a couple years ago. And so her youngest boys don't have that. And I didn't go to their baptisms and. And just because they. I actually wasn't invited. I would have liked to have been there, but it's just. It's just, you know, his parents have been mission presidents and are very, very well known in the church in the D.C. area and everything. So it's just kind of.

Collette Larsen [00:57:06] I know, I know I've put them in an uncomfortable situation. And my second son is now serving as a bishop. And so faithful and so good. And I just. I love them. They're good, good people, and they're so happy in the church.

Collette Larsen [00:57:21] You know, my first inclination was missionary work. I've got to save my kids. They've got to know this isn't true. And that did not go over very well at all.

John Dehlin [00:57:29] How'd that go? What happened when you tried?

Collette Larsen [00:57:31] There were tears and accusations and, I mean, it blew up, you know, it just really blew up on me. And so, yeah, it didn't. It didn't go well at all. So I've. I've asked their forgiveness. I've told them that I will respect their boundaries with my grandchildren. I haven't talked to any of my grandchildren about it. And so I don't know how much they know. I think they know I don't go to church, but we. It's like, we. It's just a taboo subject. I just hope that at some point, if any of them go through some of this, you know, they'll come. You know, they'll know that I'm a safe place that they can land. And I wrote that personal essay. I sent it to you, and maybe I'll even link it because we'll share

John Dehlin [00:58:11] it in the show notes.

Collette Larsen [00:58:12] It's for my. You know, I wrote it for my grandchildren as they get older, because I want them to understand, you know, how this came about.

John Dehlin [00:58:19] If they're listening five, ten, twenty years from now, what do you want to say to them?

Collette Larsen [00:58:25] I love you. I love you so much. I would never have done anything ever to hurt you intentionally, but I had to be true to my own heart. I had to be true to what I knew was. I mean, that's what we're taught our whole lives, you know, to be true, to stand firm for something, to stand for something. And when I realized that there was irrefutable evidence that all these things and so many of them were harmful and damaging and would marginalize whole groups of people, that's not who I want to Be and it's not who I am. I feel like leaving the church behind, not only have I lost weight, but I feel.

John Dehlin [00:59:04] How much have you lost?

Collette Larsen [00:59:04] £25. And it's just, just I think it's because I feel so worthy now. I know I don't self sabotage anymore. Like I, and it's about time, you know, and I feel like, you know, I, hopefully I've still got maybe a third of my life left if I live to be 99, I don't know. But I want it to just be vibrant and full of love and service and giving and you know, my husband and I are involved. The Tahoe Rim Trail, we're just, we kayak now. We got kayaks. We're just doing things, you know, I love, love Sundays. You know, it's just our day to connect and love each other.

Family Aftermath and Life After Membership

Collette Larsen [00:59:35] But I do want to talk just my youngest daughter. Now, of course the youngest passed away, but my youngest continued to go downhill and ended up having a double lung heart transplant in 2012. And she is thriving and she has just been called to be the young women's president in her ward. And I don't think those girls could have a more beautiful, wonderful, courageous woman in their lives. She loves those girls and she is an example. Her faith has carried her through. And I'm so close to her. I have. So, I mean, that's a whole, that could be an hour long story. That whole. I had to move to Stanford with her.

Collette Larsen [01:00:14] I had to leave Rick. And she's married. She had a miraculous baby. She was never supposed to even get pregnant, but here it is, you know, six years later, double lung, hospital heart, and she is thriving. And she attributes that to her faith, to her father in heaven and to her sister saying, you know, I'm going to be there through this with you. And she has so much gratitude for her donor who happened to be. We figured it out. She was a wonderful Jewish woman who was a rower record holder with a strong heart and lungs. And she just had an aneurysm and, you know, she lives on. And my daughter, who's now.

John Dehlin [01:00:56] Her heart and lungs.

Collette Larsen [01:00:57] Her heart and lungs and my, you

John Dehlin [01:00:59] know, Charlize, that is a miracle.

Collette Larsen [01:01:01] It's a whole nother. It's an incredible story, really. The whole, the whole story, how it happened is just incredible. But I watched her and you know, I hadn't gone through my faith crisis at the time. I was having some questions, but I was up there with her and I, I watched her faith and that ward up there in Los Altos rallied around us, and, you know, she was. To the point where she could. She was in a wheelchair on oxygen and everything and just waiting. We didn't know if she'd make it, you know, and when I talk to her and she bears her testimony to me, I'm so grateful she has that.

Collette Larsen [01:01:37] I'm so grateful she has that. And she just holds to it, you know, and she's so loving, by the way. She wouldn't March with Prop 8 because she didn't feel good about it. So that's her, you know, And I'm going, the Lord wants us to. And she goes, I don't feel good about it. So she's very. But she's very active, and her husband's just. I just love him. I've just got the greatest kids. And my oldest son and his wife and children are just incredible and have never had anything to do with the church. All my other children are very, very active, and it works for them.

Collette Larsen [01:02:08] And my original thought was, I've just got to save them all. I've got to pull them out with me. Think of the tithing they'll save. Think of the. You know, and now I'm trying to, like, just look at it and go, you know, they're all adults.

Collette Larsen [01:02:22] I raised them to be independent, and I need to just respect their agency and support them. So a lot of my anger is dissipating, and I just want to be there to love them and so support them, and they've been good to me. My son was here with me at the USANA convention, and I told him I was going to see this bishop that was, you know, fighting for children's rights and everything. And he goes, mom, I don't want to go. I just don't really. He goes, but just so you know, I was in scouting so long, I never interview. It's always. I always have an adult in the room with me, and I would never ask inappropriate questions.

Collette Larsen [01:03:01] So I went, oh, I'm so happy. I'm so happy to hear that. But, you know, he didn't want to. He doesn't want to associate with, you know, he's just. Just being the best bishop he can be. And I know that he just loves.

Collette Larsen [01:03:14] Just loves on the people in his ward. So it's just. It's hard because I feel like it's kind of pulled us apart because I want to just. I guess I want them to understand me because I know they love me so much, but I know I've disappointed them, and that's really, really hard. But on the bright side, I love my life. I feel like I'm authentic. And I love my relationship with my husband. And I love bulletproof coffee.

Collette Larsen [01:03:44] I love it. I mean, I can't get through, which was so. I'd never had a Coke. I'd never had a Pepsi until. I still haven't had a Coke or a Pepsi, but, you know, I. No caffeine, of course, chocolate, but, you know, I just. No doctor. I mean, I was that kind of a Mormon. And now every morning I'm. I get down there with my French press, and Rick comes down, he goes, oh, my gosh, it smells so heavenly down here. And we have our cup of coffee and we usually toast each other and go, man, it's a good life.

John Dehlin [01:04:11] I'm almost seeing a shoulder there. Your shoulder? No, no, no, that's a good thing. Like, what's that? Like, like all those modesty messages. Messages worth.

Collette Larsen [01:04:21] And that was a momentous day for me, John. I've been. I mean, I started out with the full on and the one piece, the whole. And, you know, I never would go without them. And this was. It was right before I resigned. And I. One morning, I went, well, why am I still doing this? I don't even.

John Dehlin [01:04:36] Doing what?

Collette Larsen [01:04:37] Wearing my garments. And I mean, I wore them. I told. Well, I told you I hiked to the base camp of Mount Everest, and you are hiking and you're allowed so little to bring, you know, because the Sherpas are carrying. I brought my garments. I was not going to go a day without my garments on that hiking Himalayas, because heaven helped me. I needed all the protection I could have, you know, so here I'm all this. You know, I just. That was the kind of Mormon that I was. And the day that I decided to take him off, it was the strangest. I felt so vulnerable.

Collette Larsen [01:05:10] Kind of just, you know, it felt really, really strange. I went to Target, of all places. I thought, well, I have to go buy some underwear, you know, And I remember just looking at. I mean, it was just. Ah, it was so. I still remember walking back to the car with them and going home and taking them all and putting them in a bag. And I've since given them to some girlfriends to give to the Spanish branch if they want or whatever, because I had a whole bunch that were still in packages because I would. I liked new garments all the time, you know, and I love not wearing garments, and I love not sleeping in garments.

Collette Larsen [01:05:47] You know, just. I don't care how old you get. This is like, is this creepy? I don't know, skin on skin to just be able to cuddle and things. It's just. It's wonderful. It shouldn't be denied to anyone. It's so crazy. I mean, you've, you know, you're married and you should, I guess, but, you know, I always felt like, you know, I gotta get my garments back on just in case there's a fire, you know, whatever that crazy, crazy stuff that we believe.

John Dehlin [01:06:14] So what's it like to show your shoulders now?

Collette Larsen [01:06:18] I'm a little conflicted about it because I want to go back and be 22 and wear the. Off the shoulder and have the tight arms and the. All of that, you know, because, you know, and I want to put on a cubicle. And honestly, you know, at this point, I don't want to put on a bikini, no matter how, you know, because things change. You know, I always say the Relief Society wave, you know, as you get older, your skin loses its elasticity. But still it feels so good, you know, it just feels so good to not have so many layers on and not feel like I'm. And maybe that's part of the lightness too, that I just. I feel good.

John Dehlin [01:06:55] You're down 80% pounds from your worst.

Collette Larsen [01:06:58] Oh, my goodness.

John Dehlin [01:06:58] From your heaviest point, right?

Collette Larsen [01:07:01] Yeah. Yeah, I gained a lot of weight back in the early. You know, that's been a long time ago, but. But, you know, I've been. I'm down 25. I've been the same for quite a few years. And, you know, it's. It feels good. I feel healthy.

John Dehlin [01:07:14] What didn't work about big tent Mormonism for you? Why not? Just like best of both worlds. You don't have to upset your kids. You get the membership, you get all the privileges of membership. But you drink your coffee privately, you be discreet, and you just look at it like other people look at their churches or even a country club.

Collette Larsen [01:07:35] Yeah, I tried that for a while and I just. The messages coming across were very, very hard for me. It was hard for me to keep a smile on my face. It's hard for me, like, no, no, not grip my teeth and go, I can't smell this. You know, the whole doubt your doubts and all this and the whole, you know, don't ask God, not Google and all that kind of crazy stuff. It's like, what? No. And then, you know, just even things. I haven't been back much, but when my father passed away two or three years ago and I went to his funeral, and it was a beautiful Funeral.

Collette Larsen [01:08:05] No one in my family knew. In fact, I'm not sure I'd even. Yeah, I hadn't resigned yet. I was going to, but it was in 15. But, you know, the bishop stood up, and I'm sure he's just the best man, but he stood up afterward and he started. This is how he started 6,000 years ago, when Adam and Eve were. So he started with the Adam and Eve story and the Earth 6,000 years ago. And my son. All the son, you know, was with me because it's Grandpa's funeral, and he looks at me and we both kind of roll our eyes, and I just go, how did we believe this stuff?

Collette Larsen [01:08:38] I mean, seriously, the earth is 6,000 years old. And he talks about that and Adam and Eve literally, you know, the whole. And I'm just like, ah.

John Dehlin [01:08:46] Plus, it's your dad's funeral.

Collette Larsen [01:08:47] Yeah, I know.

John Dehlin [01:08:48] I know.

Collette Larsen [01:08:48] It's like. And it had been perfect. It had been perfect to that point. And then he goes on for a half hour on the whole, and it was like. For me, it was like, mmm, you know, but. Good man. And my mother loved it, of course, so that's what was important. But every time I've gone back to church since, even for baptism or something, things are said that aren't true and truth matters. I think I heard you say that once, and it resonated with me. For me, truth matters. And that's why big tent Mormonism does not work for me, because we're still claiming that things that aren't true are true and they're not. I know there's nuance in a lot of things, and I know, you know, truth can mean. But there's things that just aren't true, and I refuse to be.

John Dehlin [01:09:32] What about just taking it all metaphorically and symbolically? It's all mythical and metaphorical.

Collette Larsen [01:09:39] That just doesn't work for me. If everyone was like that, you know, but the fact that we still marginalize people, that there's people who aren't welcome, you know, I mean, they might say they are, but they're really not.

John Dehlin [01:09:52] LGBT people.

Collette Larsen [01:09:52] Yes. And until they're welcomed. But, you know, at this point, I don't think I would ever go back, because I've just found bigger universe out there. There's so much love and so much. And of course, I've gone through my own existential crisis. I wake up sometimes in the middle of the night, sweating and nervous. Like, what? Because, you know, sharing with my.

Collette Larsen [01:10:14] You know, with Lexi on the other side, that's what you Know, I want that to be true more than anything. I just. I want there to be more. I want to pass through the veil. In fact, when I. When I dress up her body for burial, they wanted me to just cut up the back of her little white lace dress that we got her and wrap it around her because there's all these little teeny white buttons and this blue satin sash. And the man preparing her body said, just cut up the back and tuck it around her. And I went, there is no way. Because when she rises on the morning of the first resurrection, she will be so ticked at me if her little white butt is flapping in the brief, that every button's gonna be done.

Collette Larsen [01:10:55] You know, she's. And I just have. I envision that day because I want to throw my arms around her. But now I don't know if that'll happen. I really. I just say I don't know. And that's hard. That is really hard for a parent who has buried a child to not have that knowledge that I felt like I had. But what I've decided to do is take all of that in my heart, that fullness. I say, sometimes my heart is so full it leaks out my eyes.

Collette Larsen [01:11:25] But I just want to take all that fullness and live my life with such passion. In her Honor, in case 14 years was all I got with her, you know, and now, Charlie, you know, after a double lung heart transplant, the. I mean, the average life expectancy is about four years. And she's. And. But she's doing great.

Collette Larsen [01:11:46] But I just know there's this thing out there where I just. I want my family to be together. But just in case, I think we just have to make every moment count and just love, love, love, kindness and mercy and compassion and tenderness. And I tell all my grandchildren, you know, you're my favorite. They all think they're my favorite. I just could not love you more. And I hope that's when they see this essay. If you. Years from now, after I'm gone, this interview. Well, maybe they will. They'll know that Grandma Coco loves them with all of her heart.

Advice for Women Rebuilding After Mormon Life

John Dehlin [01:12:22] So I'm gonna. I'm gonna ask you about. I'm gonna ask you to address a few people. Okay?

Collette Larsen [01:12:29] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:12:30] First, I want you to address that teenage girl who has messed up, and she's going through that. The rack of shame with law of chastity and invasive questions, and she happens to stumble on this interview. What do you say to that teenage you who's wracked with guilt and shame from her explorations.

Collette Larsen [01:12:57] I would tell her, you are worthy. You were born worthy. You're beautiful, you're naive, you're normal. These feelings you're feeling should be celebrated. They shouldn't be shamed. And you're loved.

John Dehlin [01:13:15] Okay, what do you tell that 18 year old girl who graduated from high school and the returned missionary came home and he's like, we've dated a whole three weeks now it's time to get married. She's facing a proposal. What do you tell that 18 year old girl who's like, well, I've messed up and this will help me be worthy and I'll just jump right in and have a ton of kids. What do you want?

Collette Larsen [01:13:41] I would say, honey, your life is just starting. I mean, please get some education, take care of you first. You've got a whole lifetime. You're going to be. You're going to. I don't have any regrets having five children. I'm so grateful I have the children I have. But oh, how I wish I would have had that college experience, the dorm experience. I wish I would have traveled with girlfriends, maybe backpacked around Europe. I mean, just, you know, be crazy, be adventurous. You know, put yourself first. That's all going to come and there's plenty, plenty of time for it and it'll be wonderful when it does come.

Collette Larsen [01:14:16] But you know, I've actually learned, learned from someone who saw marriage number three, which is going to last. But you don't really know someone until you've been with them for at least a year, maybe 18 months. I read somewhere that it takes 18 months. People can fake it for a long time. You need to really know someone, you need to travel with them, you need to see them in all sorts of circumstances. I mean, after Rick came back in my life, I wouldn't marry him for three years. And you know, by then I knew him, I knew everything about him and knew that it was going to be great. So, you know, always there's ups and downs, but overall it was me.

John Dehlin [01:14:52] Great. And your thoughts on sex before marriage?

Collette Larsen [01:14:57] I'm fully in favor of it. Except for with my granddaughters. I still more than enough to not sure. I don't know, I kind of can't go there. But intellectually I think it's a great idea. But emotionally, I look at my granddaughters and go, I don't know, stay away from them. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:15:15] What do you tell that mother? Okay, what do you tell that woman who is considering just diving into having kids, but she's torn because she's thinking about what if my husband dies? What about. Do I have a career? Like, should I build up some skills and a career first? What do you tell that. That married woman who's trying to decide between jumping into kids or possibly a career, having had to build a career in your.

Collette Larsen [01:15:41] If she's wanting a career and she's wanting to further her schooling and I mean, I wish I had a PhD after my name. I'd give it. Give anything. I think that's just awesome because I love learning. Education is always, always a good thing. So, of course that's a decision a couple has to make together. But for a woman who's feeling like she has to do that because that's what God wants her to do, or the church has taught her to do, to bring all these spirits, you know, there's plenty of time, time to do that. And I would suggest spacing the children out a little more.

Collette Larsen [01:16:10] I just. I was just having them, you know, and. And I feel like I've been. I hope I've been a very good mother. I think my kids would say I've been, but, man, it was so hard to give them all the attention they needed, especially because I had two that needed so much attention. So I would space them out more and I would maybe even, you know, intersperse your education, you know, during it, because you don't want to be in the situation that I was in where suddenly you're suddenly single with a high school education, no references, no money, no work history, no, you know, you just.

Collette Larsen [01:16:46] It's a tough. It's a very, very tough, very vulnerable spot to be in. So I'm all about being empowered, and I think education is what empowers us.

John Dehlin [01:16:56] Okay, what do you say to that woman who has been cheated on and is divorced or who hasn't been cheated on, but whose marriage has failed, struggling financially and wondering how she's going to pick up the pieces?

Collette Larsen [01:17:15] Well, for so many years, I felt like you make a covenant in the temple, and I just wasn't going to break my covenant. So I stayed in a very, very unhappy marriage for way too long, and I would never encourage that anymore. It's a scary step, but, you know, this life might be the only shot we get at happiness. And if you're miserable, you've got to change your circumstances. What I've learned is that there are resources out there. There are people, there's. There's help, there's women's shelters, there's, you know, all sorts of things that can help these women. But if. And There's. There's grants and loans and.

Collette Larsen [01:17:50] And things to get you back in school. And I mean, there are. I think there's more out there than we realize. And I guess what I'd want you to know is that, you know, it's inside you. You have everything you need inside you. Sometimes there has to be a mind shift, like, I am worthy. And that's a huge, huge thing to just go, I am worthy. I deserve this, and then to go after it. But there are also, I think there's all sorts of opportunities and there's. There's things, there's places women can go. Don't stay in an unhappy marriage. Don't. And, you know, if you are being cheated on or if you're being abused, get out.

Collette Larsen [01:18:28] I mean, honestly, I'm so grateful I have my kids, but I wish I would have had my kids and then left. But then anytime you try to play that game, then I think, oh, like, if my husband hadn't left me high and dry, I wouldn't have become this business success. You know, I wasn't ever going to work, and I found so much fulfillment in that. So he had to do that. And of course, he had to cheat on me with that particular woman for me to meet Rick. And so you start going. You just go. I mean, there's times when I want to go to them both and say, thank you so much.

Collette Larsen [01:18:59] I mean, my life is as full and beautiful and wonderful as it is as a result of all that pain. Absolute wrenching pain brought me to this place. So, you know, it's all good. Maybe there is a God, huh? Maybe.

John Dehlin [01:19:16] And when somebody's at the wit's end and they're looking at starting over, starting a new career, a woman in her 40s or 50s or whatever, how do they get up the courage? How do they figure out how to start a career when they've done nothing to prepare themselves for this moment?

Collette Larsen [01:19:35] Well, I only have my own experience. And, you know, I know network marketing, I'm learning in Utah, is kind of a. But I do think there's opportunities out there that. With very, very little. Because, you know, you usually. You can't invest in a business or anything. You don't have the funds to do that. So there are ways to, you know, if you don't want to work just an hourly wage, which, you know, you probably aren't going to build an enterprise working an hourly wage. So, you know, I would say if you. If you have an interest in something, maybe you want to be a nurse.

Collette Larsen [01:20:03] Maybe you can get back to school, something like that, but if not, look at some options of home based businesses. For me, it has been a remarkable opportunity and I have built with absolute integrity. And I never promise big. In fact, I always promise small and deliver more than we promise. I'm very honest up front about that. It's going to take a lot of work and I, you know, I make sure they understand the quality of the products and everything. And I think it's a very viable option. I know I'll probably get a lot of people because I hear, I get all the.

John Dehlin [01:20:39] You're saying working from home?

Collette Larsen [01:20:41] Yes, yes, home.

John Dehlin [01:20:42] Enterprising.

Collette Larsen [01:20:42] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:20:43] And there's not necessarily network marketing.

Collette Larsen [01:20:44] Yeah, not necessarily. But if you can figure out a way to work from home and still be with your children, and there's lots of other things other than network marketing, that would be one of them. But oh my goodness, women, I mean even, even the Mormon bloggers and things that get the ads, I mean, there's all sorts of things that women are doing to make some money.

John Dehlin [01:21:01] Last question.

Collette Larsen [01:21:02] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:21:03] 60ish year old woman, grandma, giving her life to the church, has children in the church, has grandchildren in the church, and all of a sudden she finds herself in the rabbit hole and she's thinking, I don't know if I want to go down this whole, I could lose everything. What do you say to her?

Collette Larsen [01:21:24] Honey, call me, we'll talk, we'll talk. I'll take you up for coffee and we'll talk. Because there are, you know, there are things to weigh, but there is nothing that feels so good. You know, I recently reread the Scarlet Letter. You mentioned it earlier, Nathaniel Hawthorne. And there's that point in there, or Hester Prynne, I think her name is. She takes that scarlet letter, she unlatches it and she throws it. And then she undoes her bonnet and her tresses fall down. And then Nathaniel Hawthorne has this line. He said, she did not know the weight until she felt the freedom. She did not know the weight until she felt the freedom. Sweetie, you're 65 years old. You call me, we'll talk.

John Dehlin [01:22:10] 3. So you're feeling freedom?

Collette Larsen [01:22:11] Oh, yes. So much freedom, so much joy. It's taken a while and I'll probably have some down. You know, there's. Every once in a while I have my little anger rants. Rick goes, is this a rant coming on? And you know, or something. But then I'm just like, oh, you know. And I've never felt more spiritual than I do now. We've got a place up in Lake Tahoe. Hiking through the woods, kayaking around Lake Tahoe into Emerald Bay. I just. There's this spirituality about my life that's different. So different, but it seems more. It's bigger, it's brighter, it's. I don't know, it's all encompassing, and I'm loving it.

John Dehlin [01:22:51] That's kind of a testimony, isn't it?

Collette Larsen [01:22:52] Yes, that is my testimony. Absolutely.

Closing Reflections and Gratitude

John Dehlin [01:22:55] All right. Anything else you didn't share that you want to share?

Collette Larsen [01:22:58] Oh, gosh, we've kind of. I think we've covered it. Jonathan, thank you so much. I do want to say, of course I mentioned it, that I found Mormon Stories. And you. You know, I hear people say this to you. I hope you understand how sincere we are. All those nights on my couch with my.

Collette Larsen [01:23:16] Just a lot of times with tears dripping off as I listened to other people who were going through this, and it was just meant. It was so validating to lay there and think, I'm not alone. I'm not alone. You know, other people. People are doing this. They're getting through it. And people kept saying, it gets better. And I'd go, I got to hold on to that. It's got to get better. And you started that. And the countless people you've helped through, allowing us to just share our. I mean, I'm just, you know, I'm just grandma. But allowing us to share our stories, maybe someone will hear this and go, oh, my gosh, I can relate to her.

Collette Larsen [01:23:49] And that's just what we need. We need that validation and that confirmation that we're not alone. So thank you from the bottom of my heart. Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:23:57] My pleasure. And here you are, paying it forward.

Collette Larsen [01:23:59] I hope so.

John Dehlin [01:24:00] Here you are being that light of hope.

Collette Larsen [01:24:03] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:24:03] To other women and men.

Collette Larsen [01:24:05] I hope so.

John Dehlin [01:24:06] So thank you. All right, well, that wraps up our interview with. With Collette Larsen. It's been beautiful. I'm really grateful that you'd be willing to, on such short notice, be willing to share your story. And I know it's going to help a lot of people.

John Dehlin [01:24:22] So I just want to thank everyone who makes this possible donors. Make this possible Donors to Mormon Stories podcast. If you want to keep this podcast alive, just go to MormonStories.org, click on the donate button. Whatever you can afford. 10, 50, 100 bucks a month.

John Dehlin [01:24:39] It goes towards keeping the podcast alive and supporting the infrastructure and the organization that makes it possible. So if you value this sort of content and if it's useful, please support us if you can and it'll make a big difference. I want to thank everyone who made this episode possible. Tim Corey for producing, Cody Layton for post production. Everyone at the Open Stories foundation, thank you for all you do. And please stay tuned for more. We have a lot more coming up. I have over 100 people people on a list that I want to interview and that's just the people that I've targeted. Probably 150 at this point.

John Dehlin [01:25:16] So many great interviews to come. Please email us@mormonstoriesmail.com with any questions or concerns or ideas. Please go to mormonstories.org and comment if you like Collette's story, if you want to thank her, if you have questions for her. If you're a person, male or female, who needs support, it sounds like Collette's willing to be absolutely listening ear for you. Please reach out to her through the blog.

John Dehlin [01:25:42] You're not alone and we'll get you help. Check out WACA if you are a woman 40 or above and you're looking for a community, there's a beautiful budding community called Women of a Certain Age with over a thousand people at this point all over the United States. Probably outside the United States too. Kim Sandberg Turner is the leader of waka. They're having a feminist girls camp this weekend in Midway Heber area and these are just women celebrating and loving and supporting each other. And there's a community for you no matter where you live. And if you don't have a walk a community near you, you can start one and just reach out to Kim to learn more about that.

John Dehlin [01:26:22] You can go to Mormon Spectrum as well to get her information. Go to mormonspectrum.org map zoom into Utah. There are little places, pink triangle or square. You can find Wacca and Kim Sandberg Turner and join Wacca because there are networks of women who can support you along with other communities. Wherever you are with Mormon Spectrum. Houston, Dallas, wherever, dc, London, there's a Facebook community or a meetup group most likely wherever you live. Even Columbus, Ohio, there's a community.

John Dehlin [01:26:52] You can join it and find other progressive and post Mormons who need support and who are there to support you. So please go to Mormon Spectrum, find a local community if you need support and if there isn't one where you live, start a Facebook group or a meetup group. Share it with me, share it with Mormon Spectrum and we'll get it up and we'll recruit so that you can find people who can support you and who you can support because you're not alone. If you need support in your faith crisis, find a coach, find a therapist.

John Dehlin [01:27:23] Margi and I are available. Natasha Alford, Parker, There are lots of other people get help. You don't need to go through this alone. And if you feel so inclined, we're sponsoring these events, these workshops and retreats all over the world.

John Dehlin [01:27:39] We've got Sacramento coming up in November. We're coming to Sweden and Switzerland in September. We've got the Bahamas cruise in October. And we're just right now trying to decide what events to hold in the coming year in 2019. So if you want to bring a faith crisis workshop or retreat to where you live, email me@mormonstoriesmail.com let me know where you want to bring a workshop or retreat and we'll bring it to you. Because these events are always rated 4.9 out of 5 and people say that they saved their marriage, saved their life. Help them find community and resources to navigate this faith crisis, because you don't need to do it alone.

John Dehlin [01:28:17] So that's enough with that. Thanks again, Collette, for your wonderful story. Tune in again soon for another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. We're just getting started. Thanks, everybody.

Collette Larsen [01:28:27] Thank you.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.