Carson Calderwood is an LDS dentist and father of four living in Maple Valley, Washington. He served an LDS mission in Argentina, married his wife, Marisa, in an LDS temple, recently served as an LDS seminary teacher in Maple valley for two years, and served faithfully in the LDS church for almost two decades. After experiencing significant questions and doubts a few years go, Carson realized how many local LDS church members were struggling over matters of faith, and began trying to help local members of his ward and stake find joy and healing amidst their LDS faith crises.
After showing public support for Ordain Women, and after publicly expressing his doubts about several LDS church truth claims (e.g., polygamy, polyandry, Book of Mormon and Abraham historicity), Carson is now being charged with apostasy by the LDS Church, and by his Maple Valley, Washington stake president. A disciplinary council for Carson is set to be scheduled within the next few days or weeks.
This is Carson’s story, wherein he explains why he objects to LDS disciplinary councils for apostasy, and why he would prefer to be excommunicated than to resign his LDS membership and walk away quietly.
Episode Transcript
Host: John Dehlin · Guest: Carson Calderwood
This transcript is machine-generated and lightly edited for readability. The audio is authoritative. Please excuse occasional errors in names and spelling.
Introduction and Overview of the Disciplinary Threat
John Dehlin [00:00:00] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the Donate button on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. The kindly light amid encircling gloom
Carson Calderwood [00:00:43] Lead thou me on the night is dark and I am far from home
John Dehlin [00:00:53] Lead thou me hello and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John DehLink. It is March 25, 2015, and I am really excited for today's interview. Today we're going to be interviewing a man named Carson Calderwood and just to give you a really brief overview about Carson's story and we'll hear more about it, but basically Carson is being threatened with a disciplinary council. Just to give a tiny bit more background overall about why we would interview Carson about that. You know, the focus of Mormon Stories going forward is going to be on, you know, on many things. We're going to do a lot of the great interviews we've always done, but one of the things we want to focus on, at least for the next few years, is what I'm calling Mormon transitions. And what I mean by that is there are just, you know, thousands and even tens of thousands of of LDS Church members who are leaving orthodoxy each year. Now when you leave orthodoxy, that just means you sort of leave the traditionally believing, literal believing mindset and sometimes sort of the orthoprax position of doing and believing everything the church teaches. And that can lead you in many directions. It can lead you to become a more liberal or progressive, unorthodox member. It can lead you to sort of stay in the church but just suffer in silence as a non believer. It can. It can lead you to go inactive from the church. You can sort of go back and forth between those different positions. You can take the apologetic route and then sometimes people end up leaving the church altogether. And you know, our focus at the Open Stories foundation going forward is going to be to provide information and research for people. That's number one. Number two is to help provide communities for people and even face to face communities so that people can find others in their local communities to sort of support each other. And then we're going to be providing mental health resources and other types of resources so that we can help save marriages, minimize depression and anxiety, prevent suicide, and those types of things. And so in the spirit of discussing Mormon transitions, it appears that I'm not totally sure about this, but it appears as though the LDS Church is going to be increasing the frequency of disciplinary councils, especially for things like apostasy. I know several people who are currently being threatened with disciplinary action, and Carson is just one of the first to pop up after, you know, my excommunication. And, you know, we all know about Denver Snuffer and Kate Kelly from last year. So with that, we're going to be talking to Carson about his story, his upbringing, what happened with his faith crisis, how he responded to it, and then we're going to be talking about his interactions with his church leaders that's led to this disciplinary council. And hopefully this will be a model for helping people figure out how they want to deal with their own disciplinary councils or church disciplinary action or their own transitions if they find themselves in this situation. We hope to be positive and constructive about it. And without any further ado, Carson Calderwood, welcome to Mormon Stories.
Carson Calderwood [00:04:23] Thanks, John. Thanks for having me.
John Dehlin [00:04:25] All right, so before we begin, tell us sort of what the charges are for the disciplinary action.
Carson Calderwood [00:04:35] It's mainly apostasy that on Facebook and being open publicly about the doubts I've had, some of the conclusions I've come to, it is making too many other people start to have to doubt. In my stake presidents and bishop's view, they think that most if not all of the problems in my stake kind of stem from me and my being public. Instead of thinking that this is kind of a national thing. And they think if they can kind of create a separation between me and the church, then people will see that as separate and it won't create such a problem for them anymore.
John Dehlin [00:05:11] And tell our listeners just a little bit about yourself, just like a quick 1 minute bio sketch so we know kind of your profile of who you are, what you do, your family, et cetera.
Carson Calderwood [00:05:21] Okay. Yeah. Currently I am a dentist in Seattle. I have four kids, three boys and a girl, ages 13 to 5. Lived here for about 10 years. Been super active, been a long time doubter, semi non believer, but fully active anyway because I love Mormonism and want to just stay in and do my part. And, and I think that causes. Part of my problem is I'm a weird person in that I have stayed so active while still not really believing and that causes tension. I think for people to try and put those two things together, I actually
John Dehlin [00:06:00] Think it's super common for people to stay active without totally believing. But most people feel like they need to be really secret and quiet about it. So were you mission married in the temple, that kind of thing?
Carson's Background and Faith Journey
Carson Calderwood [00:06:16] Yeah, grew up in Sandy, Utah. Super dedicated, you know, had all the typical leadership roles as a youth growing up. Served my mission in Argentina. Very dedicated. Problem is, I always felt. I always felt like I was kind of broken because I never got a witness. And that's what always bothered me. You know, I feel the spirit going to certain church activities when people would do good things for each other, I'd see that or do it myself. And it made me feel good feelings. And people described that it made sense, that was the spirit. But then I'd go and pray and not, you know, is the church true or is the Book of Mormon true? And I'd not feel those things. And that created a conflict for me. And the conflict compounded when then I would go watch like the movie. I remember in the 90s, Independence Day with Will Smith, how the aliens came, attacked the earth and all the different countries came together to fight the aliens. As weird as that was, it made me feel that feeling of the spirit, that people coming together, that unity. I felt strong emotions and I'm like, this is weird. Why am I feeling these feelings of the spirit watching this movie and I'm not feeling it when I'm reading the Book of Mormon. It created a lot of conflict and I thought, you know, maybe it's just me. So I'll just went on my mission thinking I eventually get my witness and, and be able to finally be able to say, I know, instead of, I believe, worked really hard on my mission. It was kind of one of those annoying missionaries that was super stickler with the rules, walked fast between all the houses and everything like that, wanted to do as much as I could. I had a successful mission, grew to love the people in Argentina. And on the way home from Argentina, you could go through the temple. So the whole time I was thinking, you know, what if I don't get my experience here, working hard, dedicating myself, at least I'll get it then. And when that time finally came, went through the temple, and not only did I not get that expected witness, it actually felt kind of awkward and weird. And that was really. That started like my ser. That's what kind of changed me from a, you know, I'm in this 100% full believer to starting to have doubts. Maybe it really isn't, you know, I don't know, maybe it's still me that I'm. I. There's a problem. While I'm not getting. While I'm not getting the witness. So I'm going to keep trying. Kind of went from there for several years.
John Dehlin [00:08:23] So you ended up married in the temple, is that right?
Carson Calderwood [00:08:26] Yeah. Yep. Started dating my wife. I was pretty open to her about it, but she kind of blew it off because she saw me like I had. I would read my scriptures daily, sometimes 30 minutes. I had wrote in my journal all the time. I was doing all the things I could to be worthy of that witness. I followed Bruce Armaconka's example and made my own topical guide. I had all the different subjects and scripture references and everything like that. So she saw that and she thought, this guy, he's on the GA Tract, so to speak. And even though I was open, I'm like, I don't know. I have questions. And it explained all that. She. Throughout all the years, she was kind of open. She wouldn't, like, tell me to not talk about it, but she wouldn't totally listen. She was nice in that way, but didn't really listen. So I was kind of isolated a little bit. We've been married almost 16 years now, so for about probably 15, 14, 15 years. It was kind of like me trying to show her some things but not wanting to push back, to push too hard on her. So that also is why I stayed in that middle ground where I was fully active, participating 100%, trying to make things work, and still hoping to eventually maybe get that witness.
John Dehlin [00:09:35] And you served in various callings, I imagine.
Carson Calderwood [00:09:37] Yeah, I've been in pretty much everything on the ward level except for bishopric. I was a ward clerk when I was in dental school in Maryland. And previous. Before to. We'll get into this later. Before getting my temple recommend taken away for supporting ordained women, I was the elders quorum presidency in my ward, and before that had been early morning seminary teacher. And that was only like four or five years ago.
John Dehlin [00:09:59] That's a dangerous calling.
Carson Calderwood [00:10:01] It is.
John Dehlin [00:10:02] I'm just kidding. Okay. So do you think the direction to go is to take us back into some things about your upbringing that maybe made you a little more sensitive than others might be?
Carson Calderwood [00:10:14] Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:10:15] How do you want to start?
Carson Calderwood [00:10:16] Yeah, that sounds good. So my parents kind of come from a weird mix where my mom's side come from. Heber C. Kimball and Pratt had kids, and so they're members. Everyone's a member as far as it goes back to the origin of the church. She grew up with a Lot of privilege and money. She had a swimming pool at age 3. And my dad, his father like would go to the coffee house every morning. He was baptized a member, but not super active, his dad and just my dad had an outhouse till he was 13. And he's only 62 years old. He's not like this was back in the 1800s. So those two extremes came together of both orthoparaxy and privilege, total opposite. So I was kind of raised in the middle where we had to, we went to church all the time. We occasionally did family evening. We tried not to watch radar movies. My parents did things like that. But. I grew up with the conflict of seeing one side of the family where they would stay in their Sunday clothes all day long and consider that living the higher law literally versus the other side where you know, cussing and stuff like that was just normal. That's just how you speak and everything like that. So I saw the two extremes. We were fairly traditional believing members, but I saw that and I think that kind of set me up to where originally there was a little bit of a void there in the middle where I wasn't sure how to connect those two. And then we moved when I was eight from this area of Kerns to an area of Sandy, which this kind of a sad story but it kind of gives some perspective to I think where I am now. There's a neighborhood there in Sandy called Pepperwood where like Larry H. Miller, very, very gated community with a lot of money. And I got, they got bused into the school with me. And so when I moved there, and this is, I was 8 years old, so this was 84. I was wearing like these brown corduroy jeans when everyone was wearing jeans, regular Levi's type jeans. And I had these big butterfly collar, button down shirts from the 70s. And I hadn't realized before but like I was wearing kind of these old style clothes and all of a sudden I was getting made fun of for it and I was kind of naturally shy kid anyway, but all that, it kind of really hurt. I remember in school they had this vote one day and I was voted the second biggest loser in the whole school. And I was so happy not to be the, you know, the number one guy. And I look back on that, I'm like, that's kind of sad. But I also had this ulcer at that time. Kind of a weird story. Back before they knew it was caused by bacteria, I had this ulcer and I just kind of learned to deal with it. But that Constant daily pain from the ulcer, not feeling like I fit in at all. At school, I kind of was a little suicidal at that point of my life. And the only thing that kept me, ironically, from actually progressing with those ideas much was I thought if you did commit suicide, you couldn't go to social kingdom. So, long story short, I, I think going through that difficult time, having what I felt like was zero self confidence, feeling very hurt and judged by others, it kind of gave me a soft spot in my heart for seeing other people suffer from feeling isolated and alone. And fast forward to a few years, about 10, 15 years ago, when I started to see things that would cause doubts for me and I'd feel alone, then I would see other people go through that same thing. It just hurt a lot for me to know that they were suffering silently because they couldn't talk. So I started being. That kind of motivated me come out of my shell more. I'd be more open about my doubts and let these people know, you know, you're not alone for having these doubts. Other people think the same as you and you're not a bad person for having doubts. Because I feel like our culture will demonize doubts and doubters to where that can cause those problems of isolation, making people feel bad, like they're the broken ones and stuff like that. So that's, I've been fairly open and I try and mitigate some of those pains that come from, from those problems in the church.
John Dehlin [00:14:16] Okay. So, yeah, I can relate to that as well. I think a lot of mine came from my parents getting divorced and realizing that even though the church may have an ideal, it doesn't always work out for everybody the way that it's painted. And once people start treating you differently because, well, you're Mormon in a Baptist town or you come from a broken family, it just makes you more sensitive to people's pain, basically.
Carson Calderwood [00:14:46] Exactly.
John Dehlin [00:14:47] Yeah. Yeah, I relate. So when did you start going from suffering in silence to starting to kind of speak up and, you know, to the point where it started becoming contentious.
Doubts, Evolution, and Losing a Testimony
Carson Calderwood [00:15:03] So for a long time, I think, because I was still, you know, seen as such a, you know, model Mormon man, whereas doing like I was seminary teacher, a lot of people looked up to me and I tried. My goal at that point was, you know, I don't know if this is true. I doubt it is. I could be wrong. I'm just going to try and help people not fall into what I call, like these testimony pitfalls, kind of the inoculation approach. So as seminary teacher like that's what I'd try and do. I would say, you know what, explain about how the translation occurred with the stone in the hat so that it was normal. And you hear about it as a 14 or 15 year old, it's not a big deal. And then when you're 30 and you hear about it again, it doesn't matter. You have known about that for a long time. Or with like evolution, I'm a huge proponent. You know, my major was basically evolutionary biology at byu. It's called zoology, but better way to describe it is evolutionary biology. And so I would explain to people, you know, there were some apostles in the church that believed in evolution. I explained this to the kids, kids and say the church kind of might the culture. I would kind of draw that distinction between culture and doctrine. I say the culture is kind of an anti evolution but there were definite general authorities that believed in it. So if you go to your classes and science classes in school and learn about it, you don't have to lose your testimony and feel like a terrible person. And the irony is I had this girl in my class whose dad was one of. He's a big keep fairly anonymous. He was just well known LDS person in the area. And his daughter came to me later on and said she couldn't talk to her dad about evolution. She was so grateful that I shared that with her because now she didn't feel like she was a bad person for thinking that maybe evolution was real or God used it to create humans or whatever. But she wanted to talk to her dad but he shut her down on it. And that made me feel good because he was kind of using that typical thing, no, it's all bad, it's all evil. Without trying to understand it. And isolating her. And her seeing that I, you know, could be a good person and still believe in evolution kind of softened that blow for her and made it easier. And so that's kind of grew little by little getting more confident seeing how it helped people make me want to do it more. And it grew from there.
John Dehlin [00:17:13] Okay, so you're. And yeah, I actually experienced the same thing as a seminary teacher in Seattle, so.
Carson Calderwood [00:17:19] That's right.
John Dehlin [00:17:20] Yeah, so I get that. And so when did it start becoming a problem, you know, your approach?
Carson Calderwood [00:17:27] It actually technically the approach never really was a problem. I was well in seminary. I kind of was, I guess I asked the stake president, the guy in the stake presidency was over seminary. I'm like, I can't do this anymore. It was Old Testament and I was like this is just. I want to teach seminary in a certain way. The people over me in seminary are saying I can't do it in that way, that I have to follow the manual. And I in good conscience can't do that either. But I can't go against them. I don't want to, you know, I'm deferring to my authority on that. I don't want to go against them. So I'm like, this is too hard for me. And actually broke down. Surprised at how much tension it created. I broke down in his office and like, okay, we understand this, and we. So I just did the two years, and that was it. And so then they put me in the Stake Presidency or the Elders Quorum presidency, and it was all going good. I felt like I was doing a lot of help, like talking with people who, you know, one spouse was a big doubter, the other spouse was a traditional believing member, and it was causing a lot of conflict. And I was able to help the traditional members see the. The doubter as having legitimate concerns, and they were still a good person to kind of, you know, soften that tension in my mind, help save marriages and people's happiness. And that was all going good. And then it was time for my temple recommend interview. And I got. This is when a lot of the Kate Kelly or Dana Wims stuff was going on. And they asked me, and they got
John Dehlin [00:18:48] to the question, so this is last year, basically, 2014.
Carson Calderwood [00:18:50] Yep, exactly. Got to that question about supporting organizations contrary the church. And. And he asked me about ordained women. I'm like, well, you know, yeah, I support ordained women. But that's. This question was about fundamentalist polygamous groups. That's why it was initially created. And I. I don't support them. So I think I'm fine. He's like, well, I need to talk to state president about it, and I'll get back with you. And I'm like, all right. And at that point, I was, you know, I think that was Old Testament in Sunday school. My wife's like, don't even go to Sunday school anymore. It's causing too much tension for you. Just go. Skip that. Go to hang out in the hallway, then go to the Elders Quorum, and then you'll be a happier person. So I was kind of getting to where I was like, this is becoming too toxic for me. And so when they said that, I'm like, all right, whatever. And then they came back a week or so later and said, yeah, I talked to stake President. They feel that that disqualifies you from being able to have a temple recommend. And since you're calling the first counselor and the elders quorum presidency is a stake calling, you can't have that calling anymore because you need a temple rec, active temple recommend in our stake to have a stake calling. And I was like, you know, whatever. I actually kind of don't want to go to the temple anymore, and I'm ready for a break anyway.
John Dehlin [00:20:00] What month was this?
Carson Calderwood [00:20:01] I think this was August. No, probably July sometime early summer last year.
John Dehlin [00:20:06] Okay.
Carson Calderwood [00:20:07] And so the whole time, my wife, you know, all along, she's really intelligent. She's a Hinckley scholar, genius lady. And she. She had listened to me here and there intellectually, kind of understood, but hadn't processed it in her heart. And she's very feminist, too. Like, going through the temple. I remember the day when you look over and it talks about harkening to your husband. She. The look on her face was like pure sickness. And so she's always had that as a sensitive nerve for her little trigger. And when I came home and told her, and she heard, so after all these years, you being an open doubter and not really believing in the church and doing all this work for the church, they're going to take away your temple recommend now for women's equality. It like, really fired her up. And she was mad. And so that kind of was what broke the, you know, the camel's back, so to speak, for her. And so she started actually processing all the things that she'd been hearing from me throughout the years and started looking into it for herself and really quickly, which was kind of almost scary for me and weird. She went from progressive Mormon who, you know, knew that the leaders were infallible, but thought they were still inspired from God, to where she looked into it and she started to really disbelieve. And so all of a sudden, after all these years of kind of wanting to go, but not because of my not leaving, because of my spouse and loving the community, she said, you know, I can't do this anymore, Carson. I want to go. And it was like, wow. So we decided we're going to do the typical Mormon fashion, right? Our exit narrative. And we actually posted on Facebook, and there was, you know, thousands of things that could have caused doubts that I wanted to write in there that I would have wanted to put in there to justify my position, but didn't really feel comfortable with that, either of us. But we wanted to put a couple things to show that not even for us, but for Other people have doubts that those are legitimate concerns. So we put a couple things in there. We said, we don't want to go into great detail, but there's things like the polyandry and that. That they're real problems. And so that, I think, is kind of really what triggered them in December.
John Dehlin [00:22:05] So you put that in a letter?
Carson Calderwood [00:22:07] Yeah, in our exit letter. And we post it. I have a personal blog that I always kind of would write church things on over the years. And I put it in, post it on our family blog, our letter, and then linked to it on Facebook, both of us. And it kind of went crazy with all of our friends and family, and it was pretty intense there for a while. People were shocked.
John Dehlin [00:22:28] So this is a Facebook post.
Carson Calderwood [00:22:29] Yep, exactly.
John Dehlin [00:22:31] Okay.
Carson Calderwood [00:22:32] And our personal family blog. So they. Yeah, that. That. My bishop, my stake president, called me in. He's like, we need to draw a line between you and the church so people know that we don't support these things, you're saying. And I was like, you know, no one thinks that for one. But two, I was like, I don't really care. Yeah. And then I said, all right, I'll wait, whatever, you guys. You know, we'll talk about it when you come to a conclusion. And then didn't really hear anything until around Christmas time. My bishop called and he. It was either Christmas or just after, and he asked me if I would just resign. And I was like, that's really weird. Like, to think if from his point of view, if I'm kicking myself out of heaven, if I lose my, you know, my. My ordinances and all this, he's just going to, like, ask me to resign.
John Dehlin [00:23:18] How much time had they spent trying to counsel with you and love you and resolve your concerns and discuss these things with you?
Carson Calderwood [00:23:26] I'd met with, I think, the bishop twice, staked president once. And they. And we talked, and it was pretty. Both of them are good guys. Like, I really think they're. They're good men. They just, I jokingly say, although it irritates them, probably is, they're blinded by the subtle craftiness of men. I just think they're doing harmful things out of trying to do the right thing, and they just don't understand how much it hurts people.
Interactions With Stake Leadership and Formal Charges
John Dehlin [00:23:47] So what steak? Are you comfortable saying what steak it is, or would you rather not?
Carson Calderwood [00:23:51] Yeah, I don't. You know, it's. I don't think it's that big a deal. I'm in the Maple Valley Steak. That's where I live. Maple valley. It's probably 15% Mormon here. Where I live, it's pretty dense for being in Seattle, you know, outside of the Mormon corridor.
John Dehlin [00:24:03] Okay, so it's Maple Valley Stake. And did you have those types of meetings where you'd like, bring each issue Book of Abraham polyandry and, you know, Book of Mormon historicity, and you would try to educate your bishop or stake president about the issues so that they would understand where you were coming from?
Carson Calderwood [00:24:23] I would slightly do that, but I'm like, I have a really strong conflict aversion personality. So as soon as I would. Which people might not believe with, like, how those Facebook posts kind of go on for hundreds of comments, but I really. I hate doing that, especially in person. And I'm like, I would say, well, you know, I would try and get the point across that it's okay if people stay in the church. And I've tried to reiterate that all the time. And you can still believe, even though I don't. I can understand why you can believe that God still directs the church, but you have to have the caveat in there that these are imperfect men. He gives them their free agency and they make mistakes. And I would say, for example, you know, I use blacks in the priest or whatever. But as soon as I started talking about that, they would kind of put up a wall a little bit. I felt like. And they felt like they had the answers and that they would know some, usually not all of the story on those things, and it would just get a little abrasive. And I'm like, I don't want to go down there. He's not going to be receptive anyway. So we'd go back and forth on a handful of things, and I wouldn't push too much past that. I would just kind of keep trying to drive that home. Like, look, these are issues. I don't think you really know the whole story. I could talk about it more in depth if you want to know it, but I think this causes the problems. And if we just keep isolating people because of their doubts, we're augmenting the problems and making them worse. So they tried a couple times, and they actually emailed me after those meetings and said, we'd like to talk again. I'm like, all right, what would you like to talk about? Because we've already kind of hit on some of those points. But it's basically me trying to prove my view and you trying to prove your view, so what would you want to do? And they left it at that, basically.
John Dehlin [00:26:01] So a couple Meetings with the bishop and one meeting with the stake president.
Carson Calderwood [00:26:04] Is that right up until two weeks ago? Yes.
John Dehlin [00:26:07] And that's just so interesting. Just, you know, one of the themes that we've discussed and we'll be returning to is this notion of ecclesiastical roulette and how completely different experiences people can get depending on who their leader is. Because there's some areas where you could be called as a bishop and have the same beliefs that you Carson, have. You know, there are wards in Cambridge, Massachusetts, or Berkeley where you can, you know, teach Sunday school as an atheist. And there's just so much more tolerance. And then when I think about, like, meeting with leaders, my stake president, my former stake president, you know, Mark Jensen, he met with me weekly for. For a year, trying to love me, to counsel me, to discuss things with me. And it really won my heart over for a while. But then when he got replaced with Brian King, I mean, the first communication I had with Brian King was, here's a letter, you know, I would like to invite you to resign. And if you don't resign, it's time to have a disciplinary council. So it's just crazy, the disparity of approaches that the different church leaders can have to people like us, isn't it?
Carson Calderwood [00:27:27] Yeah, there's no systematic procedures in place really, to process through this. And I actually sent. I don't remember who wrote it. Someone wrote a post somewhere on being more of a shepherd for people who doubt. And it says, you don't even have to answer any questions at all. If you just listen to them and under. And understand, show them you understand that this is hard and painful. That's 90% of what people need. And I emailed that to my bishop like about a year ago, before this, actually any of this stuff happened. I'm like, hey, you know, if people come to you with questions, I've been there for several years. This is a really good thing to do. And past the pastoral approach, I think is what it's called. And so he kind of knew that that's what I technically would want because I sent it to him. But still, I think they just have. They're just. The culture is that if you have these problems, you're a cancer and you need to be cut out. And the sooner we cut the cancer out, the less likely it is to spread.
John Dehlin [00:28:25] And did you get a sense for whether they, number one, knew about the issues, the big issues that caused people to leave? Two, had even thought deeply about them. Did they ever give you good answers or answers that seemed thoughtful and then three. Did you have any sense that they knew about the church essays and had spent any time reading the essays themselves?
Carson Calderwood [00:28:48] Definitely not originally, but over the last couple months there's been so many other people coming to them that they have heard of those things. Like originally when I would say this stuff, they definitely, they thought they knew like usual, but they really don't know the whole story. And if I start to tell them, they think that I'm saying made up stuff anti Mormon lies and stuff like that. And I'm like, I even said, I'm like, I can show you like journal entries from some of the women who Joseph married because they'll say we don't understand, we can't know what they think. That's what the bishop tell me. He's like, I'm an attorney and I see things that we can't know the whole story now. And I'm like, yeah, that's true. But if we read their journal and they say X, Y and Z, we can know that's what they thought. And they would kind of brush it off with those things and, and not, not fully understand and not try. And they would brush, you know, they wouldn't learn the whole thing. And what they did learn, they would brush it off as, as not really, you know, not something they really have to pay attention to.
John Dehlin [00:29:47] Yeah, yeah. And that's just so hard, it's so hard to deal with. Were you causing trouble? Were you like trying to, you know, spread doubt and disbelief within your ward or stake? Were you trying to recruit people out of the church? Like to what extent would they have had a cause to be concerned about your threat to the sheep?
Carson Calderwood [00:30:13] Yeah. So I think there's two parts to this one, you know, if I'm being totally honest, you know, like in that letter I did say, you know, there's things that people don't know, like how Joseph smith married a 14 year old girl and lied to his wife about it. And those are things that create problems for us. So yes, I did share a couple of things and 100% truthful. You know, they know that what I said is true, those who looked into it and then.
John Dehlin [00:30:34] But those are things that the essays say.
Carson Calderwood [00:30:36] Yeah, exactly.
John Dehlin [00:30:36] Now maybe in different words, but all you're doing is sharing things that the church itself is acknowledging.
Carson Calderwood [00:30:42] Yeah. And I would only, I would only kind of brush on it lightly. I wouldn't go into detail and I wouldn't push it because I'm like, if you want to know more, we can talk about it. But these are real problems. And then one thing that's been really interesting lately is so one of my good friends who was recently the high priest group leader, he's been talking to both people in the two people in the stake presidency, my bishop, my Relief Society president and stuff. And he's open to me sharing this, so I feel comfortable with it. He has gone to them and said, look, you've known Carson for 10 years. Who in the ward did more for the ward than him? And he was open about his doubts the whole time. I remember he would share like I actually, you know, the two times I broke down about anything religious was the stake presidency, like I was saying. And the second time I was sharing that verse out of D&C 46, I think it's 1314, where it says some people have the gift to believe in Jesus Christ and others it is to believe on their words. And a few years ago I shared that in Sunday school and just all the tensions around never getting an answer and wanting one so bad, I kind of broke down crying sharing that a little bit. And I'm like, this means a lot to me and I guess that's who I am. I'm just going to have to go on other people's light. And he kind of brought that up, remember when happened And Carson's done all this good and he has never encouraged people to leave the church. He has actually even discouraged some and he's saved. Saved marriages is too big. But he's helped diminish the tension in several marriages that you know about and stuff like that. So after pointing that out, they actually are like, you know what, you're right. Carson actually isn't an anti Mormon. He's not a terrible person trying to ruin people's lives, deceived by the Lord. They stand back and looked at it in that perspective and actually having some change of heart, which gives me hope. That's kind of why I feel public, you know, if it comes down to it and I get excommunicated, I'm in a place right now where it won't. I don't really care that much. It will hurt my parents and that bothers me. But I'm enough of a non believer now that that it won't bother me that much. But I hate the fact that that could set up a precedent to allow them to do that to other people who are either doubting and not believing that do want to stay and that that seems terrible to me.
John Dehlin [00:32:49] Okay, so let's talk about recent communications and interactions.
Carson Calderwood [00:32:56] All right, so after not hearing anything from the stake president since last year. And the bishop was like, around Christmas. I got an email from the stake president about a week and a half ago asking if I could come in on Sunday. So a week ago Sunday.
John Dehlin [00:33:12] So we're talking mid March 2015.
Carson Calderwood [00:33:15] Yep, exactly. So, yep. We could go Sunday. Last Sunday. I went in there, he's like, he. And he kind of let me know, he's like, we, you know, we'll talk about resignation and stuff like that. So I go in there and. And he basically told me, he's like, you are. You're ruining families, Carson. You're creating doubts and you're destroying families and happy lives with these things you're doing.
John Dehlin [00:33:38] Did he give you any evidence of families you had ruined?
Carson Calderwood [00:33:42] He pointed to people that I had known. Well, no, he actually didn't give me specifics. He's been pretty good about confidentiality. But I brought up some names of people that have been open to me and him and talked about it. And I'm like, like family X, Y and Z. I didn't all of them. A lot of people are saying that I started a lot of people's. My wife and I started a lot of people's faith crises, but all of them were there before. And I said there was like this one family. I have tried to help them. And both the wife, who is still the traditional believing member, and the husband, I've been trying to help both of them so they can come together and show her that his doubts are legitimate, that he's not a terrible person. And I'm helping save marriages. The church and the leaders who are condoning this view, they're this ability to demonize doubts and doubters are the ones that are breaking up families because you're making her feel justified, that she is pushing him out of the house and saying he's a terrible person and can't talk to the kids and all these things. I'm like, I'm trying to help him. I feel like the culture that this is, that you're participating in is actually what's causing the breakup of the families. Because if you encourage her to love her husband, to be Christlike, to understand his doubts, they could have a happy marriage. I did for 15 years, an awesome marriage with an awesome woman who was a true believing member. And I was fairly non believing. So that's kind of how it left.
John Dehlin [00:35:05] And he's like, so are there families that have broken up in the stake, like divorced or whatever?
Carson Calderwood [00:35:11] Yeah, there's one potential because of that. A Few other families where it's like they have a lot of tensions because one's a believer and one's not. Yeah, I would say. I know personally in my stake, which is basically two or three wards that I know that many people in of probably 15 to 20 people that are doubting slightly too significantly and they land all places. I know two people are very Christian. They didn't want to be members anymore because they felt there wasn't enough Christ in the church. And you know, some people have become completely atheist and they just as they looked into the history and for some people it was the essays made it worse for them. Other people, they had the doubts long before that. So it's kind of all over the place.
John Dehlin [00:35:53] So it's about five per ward, basically.
Carson Calderwood [00:35:55] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
John Dehlin [00:35:56] That's about my estimate of how prevalent this is in the church. Okay, so. But you don't. Have you ever encouraged anyone to leave the church?
Carson Calderwood [00:36:08] Definitely not. I have said, you know, part of me wishes everyone would because there's good there, but there's bad there. And it gets encouraged to do things like that to like demonize doubters, but it's so traumatic. And Mormonism works great for some people. So I'm like, if it's working great for you, definitely stay. Or even if it's going to be hard on your marriage, definitely stay. You can make the best of it. There is good there. You can find good. For me and my wife, what we've done is we've kind of dropped the bad. I don't have to justify a man lying to his wife and marrying a 14 year old girl. I can drop that, say it's bad, walk away from that. There's so much good service to other people. I can keep all that and then add to it the other good. And so that's kind of message, you know, definitely stay in Mormonism if it's working for you. If it isn't, if it's too toxic like it was for me. You don't have to feel, you know, bad about doing what will make your life, that you can serve more people and do more good in the world.
John Dehlin [00:37:01] But the bishop accuses you of breaking up families.
Carson Calderwood [00:37:04] Exactly. I'm more stake president. Yeah.
John Dehlin [00:37:06] Okay, so the bishop accuses you of
Carson Calderwood [00:37:07] that then what Stake president? I actually haven't talked to my bishop much since January.
John Dehlin [00:37:12] Okay, so it was the stake president, not the bishop that called you in a week and a half ago?
Carson Calderwood [00:37:16] Yep.
John Dehlin [00:37:16] Okay, so what else, what else happened
Carson Calderwood [00:37:18] in that conversation that was kind of the long and Short of it. I tried to get across the point to him. He kind of got to that point, which people do. He's like, well, if God allowed Brigham Young to be racist and deny blacks the priesthood, does that mean God's racist? And I'm like, no, obviously. It just means that God gave him his free agency. He was in. That was his culture of the time. And, you know, I may have done the same thing had I lived back then, but you have to draw that distinction. And he's like, no, I can't do that. I can't allow God to kind of be racist. And that was surprised, even with me saying no. He just had his free agency. It could be that that's all it was. He kind of couldn't process that. So I can see he thinks it's an all or nothing situation. He can't have that middle ground. And so if I am trying to push for that middle ground, then I'm pushing for the opposite side of him. Okay, so he. He said, all right, let me think about this. And I really encourage you to resign. He really wanted me to do that. And then I was going on. Gonna get ready to go on vacation Thursday.
John Dehlin [00:38:26] What'd you say about resigning?
Carson Calderwood [00:38:28] I said, I don't want to.
John Dehlin [00:38:32] Why not resign? A lot of people said that to me. Just resign.
Carson Calderwood [00:38:36] Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's a good question. I feel like, for two reasons. One, it would hurt my parents a lot. I think still having me be a member, even though they know I don't believe anymore, leaves them with a little bit more hope. And I tried to joke with my mom once and say, well, you know, it says D&C, 132. As long as I don't kill anybody, I'm still going to Social Kingdom, so you don't have to worry about me. But she didn't find that very funny. And I don't know how that works out with excommunication. Actually, now I think about it, but that scares them. And so the other part of me, though, is, like I was saying earlier, I don't want. I want to fight against this. What I see as a terrible thing, the demonizing of doubts and doubters. I think it's a super terrible thing. It causes so much heartache. Like, I. When I talk to people and let them know, you know, like, yeah, these are legitimate problems. And they break down and they're crying. Grown men who just break down and cry because of the tensions it creates and feeling like they can't talk to their spouse about it or that their family's gonna think they're terrible. And, you know, living here in Seattle area and not Utah, it's not gonna affect work and stuff as much as it would for the people in Utah. So I can only imagine that tension there. But I want to fight against that and I want to encourage these people. Just step back and look. Look at my situation. You can excommunicate me if you want to. I don't want to. I want you to consider allowing people like me to stay, even though I'm actually not going to attend anymore. For people that believe like I did and attended for years like I did, you need to let them stay. You know, you need to allow someone to go to church and not have to think like, exactly like everyone else does, to have differences of opinion, to think, you know what? Maybe God used evolution to create our human bodies, and someone else is going to think, nope, I think he just, you know, waved his finger and we came out of the dirt. That's okay. We can disagree. That's totally fine. But we just need to disagree nicely and love each other despite our differences. And that's kind of what I'm pushing for. And I feel like if I just resigned, I wouldn't be able to have the effect as well.
John Dehlin [00:40:32] So you're concerned about how it would affect your friends and family, and you object to the practice, and you worry about the implications of the church coming after doubters and questioners because it sets a very difficult precedent that could affect a lot of people in a negative way. Is that right?
Carson Calderwood [00:40:55] Exactly. And because I don't care about me and my excommunication as much, it makes it really easy to put the focus on the procedure and the situation. Instead of me, I'll say, you guys can do whatever you want. Let's focus on what excommunication is and if this is a good or a bad thing and why you guys think I need to be excommunicated if that's really a bad thing, to have doubts and be a doubter. And that's. That's kind of what I want to put the. Where I want to put the spotlight.
Facing the Disciplinary Council as a Matter of Conscience
John Dehlin [00:41:19] Okay, how does it feel? I mean, how does it feel for you to be threatened with the disciplinary council? What feelings and thoughts go through your mind as you contemplate the actual act?
Carson Calderwood [00:41:32] To be honest, I'm kind of in an emotional place now where it isn't so bothersome, I think, because of putting out that our exit letter, being public with it and receiving all, you know, it can be so Traumatic to be. To be rejected from your tribe, from your community. Like, you know, some of the September 6th, when they thought they wouldn't care and it happened and they. It really bothered them. I was, I was, you know, Kate Kelly, how much it hurt her to actually be rejected like that. I, you know, maybe I'm wrong, but I think I've already processed a lot of that rejection because I've been so rejected by some family, some friends, stuff like that. You know, I've had. It's. I feel like the ironic thing about this is I feel like it's brought me so much closer to some friends who are true believing members, but they just understand me and they're like, carson, this is your cross to bear. This is your path. I see you trying to be a good person. I know that if you died and went to heaven, God would put his arms around you and welcome you in right now. And so that has been awesome. But then it's equally balanced with the amount of rejection that you get from the other people as well.
John Dehlin [00:42:38] Did the stake president give you any specific charges? Did he say, here's what you've done, here's what you violated, Here are the ways that you qualify for an apostate?
Carson Calderwood [00:42:50] Nope, not definitely. Not specific. Just the generalities that I am speaking publicly about how the church may not be true. And even though I'm not encouraging people to leave because I'm open about my conclusions, that's about as specific as he has gotten. I think that's coming. He wants to do the formal. He wants to set a date and then do the formal precedings at that point.
John Dehlin [00:43:15] So you haven't received a letter yet?
Carson Calderwood [00:43:18] Nope. If he wanted to do the disciplinary. So a week ago Sunday is when we met. A couple days later, he said, all right, let's meet next Tuesday and we'll have your disciplinary council. And if we can set that date, then I'll do all the formal stuff ahead of time. And I'm like, I can't do that. It's too soon. I'm leaving Thursday. Don't get back till late Sunday night. So I need to postpone it. And so as soon as he said as soon as we get a date, then he will do that stuff again.
John Dehlin [00:43:40] That's super crazy. My stake president, I did get the letter kind of threatening a disciplinary council in June, but then we met in August and he waited another six or eight months before he actually pulled the trigger on a disciplinary council. And so, like, that is so different from your experience where he's Trying to do it in a week.
Carson Calderwood [00:44:04] Yeah. After being kind of silent for so long, all of a sudden, bam. I just think it's kind of snowballed, the number of people having doubts and they're like, you know what? This is because of Carson. If we can isolate him, then we can take care of this problem in our steak.
John Dehlin [00:44:16] Do you think it's going to work? Do you think it's going to solve the problem in your steak?
Carson Calderwood [00:44:23] Definitely not. Like it is really irritated a lot of people. They see it as draconian, as harsh, as unkind, unchristlike. And it's actually augmented the problem significantly. It's like the people. It's caused a lot of people to reach out to me. I've actually felt a lot of love recently because I had so many people reach out to me and say, carson, we know you're a good person. We're so sorry this is happening to you. And it's kind of causing others to listen to my story more and hear the things about the doubts and how people have doubts and what are those doubts? And they're looking into it and it's actually having the opposite effect. Significant.
John Dehlin [00:44:57] Okay, so how do you plan on approaching it? Do you have an estimate for a date you might be providing and do you have a strategy for how you're going to approach the disciplinary council?
Carson Calderwood [00:45:09] Yeah. So he's supposed to get back the 30th and let me know. And he wants to do it within a week, he was saying. So I assume it's going to happen here in the next couple weeks. And when I go in, what my strategy I'm thinking is, I want to three things show that of the few things that I've said, which, like I said is like there's a thousand more I could easily share of those things. Everything is I can document with primary sources as being 100% true. Because of that, I'm not sharing anything that's a lie. Everything is truthful. And a lot of it you can even find in church sub, you know, church approved books, if you look in history of the church and things like that. So it's like these are legitimate concerns that people can legitimately come across. And in today's world, the Internet, that doesn't even matter anymore. People are going to come across it anyway. So because of that, we have to change the culture to not demonize people for having doubts over these legitimate concerns and treating them as bad people or isolating them. We need to do the exact opposite. We need to put our arms around Them and say, you know, if you're having doubts, that is one of the. The scariest things that can happen to you if you grew up Mormon. And all of a sudden, like, I remember exactly the moment at BYU when I learned about, like, the chemical nature of the biochemical nature of emotion and walked out of my class and was like, holy crap. That explains to me why I felt the quote, unquote, spirit at these times and not others. And it just all made sense. And I just remember thinking, feeling like the whole vastness of the universe and my infinitesimally small body right there, and I'm like, there's no God. You know, just that moment of doubt. And that was scary. And I want to let them know how scary that moment can be when you start to doubt so they can put their arms around the person, let them know they love them. And even if they come to conclusion, don't want to go, just say, we love you anyway. Help us do good in the world. Be kind to other people instead of isolating them, saying, you're bad and you're evil.
John Dehlin [00:47:12] So just to play devil's advocate a bit, isn't there a huge difference between, number one, learning a bunch of challenging information, and even number two, having doubts and expressing them privately to close family and friends and church leaders? Isn't there a huge difference between that and, number one, coming to the conclusion that the church isn't true? And then, number two, publicly expressing your disbelief? Like, don't you think that qualifies you for dismissal from the church? Because, yeah, I mean, what if the church is just drawing the line? You can have doubts, you can even talk privately about your doubts, and you can even disbelieve privately. But as soon as you're publicly making, you know, spreading the information and making public declarations regarding your explicit disbelief, well, you're disqualifying yourself from membership. And in that case, the church doesn't have an obligation to love and reach out to you. You're standing apart. And it's absolutely appropriate for them to say, hey, if you're going to tell everybody you don't believe the church is true, then you don't need to be a member anymore. Like, what's wrong with that?
Carson Calderwood [00:48:38] Yeah, I understand that. And I think the way I look at it is it. Is that the way the church has their rules and regulations drawn up right now? That is the way, and that is the truth. You know, I am considered by them an apostate that should have my names removed, even though I'm not fully Spreading it and pushing it because I am public about it. But, but I think that's so terrible because like if you're in the Catholic church or you're Jewish and you say, yeah, I don't believe that Moses really existed, but I love this people, I want to stay here and I want to serve. You can do that in those communities but you can't in ours. And I think that is wrong. I would love it. And we actually kind of got here with my elders quorum a little bit where people could say, you know, like if someone says, you know, I have, you know, I can't think of example right now, but like they think they have a problem with something and people say, you know what, that's okay, let's accept Brother X where he is and let's love him. And he might eventually, if we love him and he's faithful, then he can get an answer to this down the road, which we don't know the answers to. But let's do that. I think that is a much better way to treat a person who might be having doubts. Even if they say they don't believe, even if they say I'm 100% atheist, why can't we love them, let them try and do good, you know, mourn with those that mourn and make our community a better place.
John Dehlin [00:50:01] So basically other churches are doing it, they're more tolerant and for you the answer is love, Kind of long suffering love and support, not rejection and public shaming.
Carson Calderwood [00:50:16] Yeah. And I guess part of it I didn't really say there is that maybe I'm too extreme in my situation and you don't necessarily have to accept me. But there's a whole spectrum, a huge spectrum between the traditional believing member and me. And anything basically that's away from that far other side of the spectrum is seen as bad. And maybe it's good that I can be, I can maybe even be a little more aggressive in my stance so that I can create that extreme for them to see. But if you can't in Sunday school, raise a question. Even though Elder Uchtdorf has said we need to be tolerant of people and accept them where they are, no one in class in Sunday school is going to be able to raise their hand comfortably and say I never get an answer when I pray about the Book of Mormon. And then Joseph Smith, he married a 14 year old girl and didn't talk to Emma about it. Why did he do that? Let's talk about that. You're not going to have that conversation. People would would be scared to death to think of asking a question like that in Sunday school or even seminary, even institute, you know, you should be able to have those discussions and not be kicked out. And right now you can't. I feel like the, the range of acceptability is so far over there that I want to fight to broaden that. Even if it doesn't get all the way out to include me, that's okay. It needs to be broadened. And that's, that's what I'm trying to help them see.
John Dehlin [00:51:45] When I read D and C, section 121, it says in verse 41, no power, influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood only by persuasion, by long suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned by kindness and pure knowledge which shall greatly enlarge the soul. Without hypocrisy and without guile. Do you feel like that's how your stake president has acted with you?
Carson Calderwood [00:52:12] Partially, but definitely not completely. You know, I feel like he definitely does not have the pure knowledge. He doesn't understand a lot of those things. He's not. He loves me as a person. There's no doubt about that. He's a loving, good, kind man, but he doesn't love me. He doesn't love that I can doubt and that other people that have doubts. He hates that. Hates too strong. Oh, maybe not, maybe it's not too hard, but he hates that aspect of the people and doesn't want to accept that, doesn't want to accept someone's doubter. You have to not be a doubter. You have to be quiet about those doubts if you have them. And you can come here. You don't have to be perfect, obviously, but you can come here and you can't be an open doubter. And that's where I think you're losing, because the opposite. When any of those people that doubt that I've talked with or others, when you can have that open, honest conversation with them, and even if you totally agree, like my friends that are my one buddy who's been talking to everyone, he was a high priest, group leader, very, very active, very strong testimony, he and I, I can give him a huge hug and he can understand me and I can understand him, we can love each other greatly and know that we care about each other, even though we see the conclusion dramatically different. And if, if all my leaders were like him, you know, I would still be an active, fully active, participating agnostic, whatever you want to call it, member.
John Dehlin [00:53:37] Do you feel like your stake president's been long suffering with you.
Carson Calderwood [00:53:41] Definitely not. You know, he's been loving, but not long suffering. I think that's the difference there because
John Dehlin [00:53:46] it's been two or three meetings. Has he ever made real conscientious, long suffering efforts to sit with you, to listen to you, to understand, Understand you, to empathize with you and to support you as you struggle?
Carson Calderwood [00:54:04] No, because when I explain those things, it's like, well, there's these doubts. We need to love the people that have these doubts and not push them away. That isn't something that I feel like he's processing with me and understanding. And I hate to say that because he is such a nice guy, I still care about him. I just feel like they can't get over that hump, that having doubts isn't bad. It doesn't make you a bad person. And so without getting over that hump, whatever I say, you know, it's not going to be. It's not going to go into his heart. He's not going to process that and can't love someone who is like that in the way and it can't accept, I guess is a better word, someone who has those doubts or is in that situation.
John Dehlin [00:54:55] So in my case, because of the letters I received, you know, my stake president, Brian King, his name's kind of been bandied about a bit. You know, how do you feel like you're going to approach, you know, discussing your stake president's name and sort of, you know, having there be sort of public accountability for what this man is doing to you? Have you thought about that?
Carson Calderwood [00:55:24] Yeah. Yeah. And on one hand, like, I actually seriously considered resigning. I was like, you know, I don't necessarily. I love him, love my bishop. I love the men in the stake presidency. And if I just resign and quietly walk away, they won't have this stress added into their life. I know that's why they want me to resign. They're like, you know, what if we just have Carson resign, this slips away, sweep it under the rug. We don't have to deal with it. We won't have that tension. Because they have enough tensions already. They're trying to run a stake. They're having all these people come to them with doubts. They see it crumbling, they see it compounding and snowballing, getting worse. They just have so much on their plate that I feel terrible adding to that. But I recently, to put in perspective, I guess I recently watched the documentary, there's a couple on Netflix on North Korea and I watched It. And I saw the one about how people would leave and they would go back to try and help the people who left because they're inside the country, they're told it's such great and it's so bad outside, you don't want to leave. And it just resonated so much with me because on one hand I want to just be quiet and not create that problem. But on the other hand, I want to go tell everyone and show them all these things. Like, you think you know the truth, but you don't. If you can know the truth and accept it and stay, that's awesome. But it's not fair that you are believing on faulty assumptions and stuff like that. And so. And it's terrible that these bad things are happening, these bad people. And so, you know, I'm like, you know what? This is gonna be hard on me. It takes an emotional toll, unfortunately. It's gonna cause added frustration for them. But if we can make some change so that they can not, they can help change the culture so that people don't isolate the doubts doubters, then it'll be worth it. And actually already starting to see that. Like my friend that's been talking to all those people, they have all in the last week, I think he's had four or five of these people change from saying, Carson is bad, he needs to get out, we need to excommunicate him too. Wow. He might actually be doing some good. And we actually may have been going about this wrong. Let's sit back and look at this and honestly figure out what we should do. And that's amazing. I think if nothing else changed with actually what has happened so far with those people, I would consider that a success.
John Dehlin [00:57:31] Yeah. And I'll just add my view. I would never tell someone what they should do in their own personal lives. But I do agree with you very strongly that when you resign and you just quietly slip away, there's no accountability. And there are too many LDS Church members who, first of all, don't even know the essays exist, who either join the church or have loyalties to the church without full information of what they're actually believing in. And I believe that people deserve to have a full understanding of about the history and the background of an institution that they give 10% of their income and thousands of hours of their lives to, and sometimes their actual life when it's the case of missionaries being killed or whatever. And so I believe that people deserve to have that information. And then like you say, if they want to choose to Stay fantastic. But there's millions of Mormons who don't know even the most basic things about the Book of Mormon, about Joseph Smith, about the Book of Abraham, about the Church's position on various things. And people deserve to know. And unless people are courageous enough to stand up and share their concerns and doubts, then we have millions of Mormons who remain in ignorance, and that's not fair to them. It's just not ethical. And then if you just slip away and you don't, you know, if you're. If the Church gets away with forcing people to resign or marginalizing people for openly expressing their doubts, you're forcing all these people to either suffer in silence, which is a very damaging approach from a mental health perspective, or to learn that lying is what needs to be done. And there are all sorts of dangers that come from people just learning to lie and learning to be okay with lying. Hiding who you are is just damaging on so many levels. And, you know, when people speak out and face a disciplinary council, what you're going to be doing is you're going to be bringing up these issues to the Stake President, to the, you know, counselors in the Stake Presidency, to all the members of the Stake High Council, and to all the members of the Stake who are willing to think about it and listen. And if you care about transparency and integrity and truth, honestly, if you care about truth, if you think people have the right to know the truth, and if you feel like people have the right to be fully informed when they make decisions that are so essential, and if you believe that people should have the basic, fundamental right of free speech, of free expression without the fear of coercion and social punishment, then I think this can be a very. You know, this may not be a decision for everybody, but I think it can be a very courageous decision, even a heroic one, and one that leads to very positive fruits for members of the church and people who are leaving the church. I just think it's good for everybody because sunshine is the greatest disinfectant, really. And the Church claims to be a lover of truth. And I know that church leaders in the past have said, if the church is true, we have nothing to fear, and if the church isn't true, it deserves to be damaged. And I think that's actually true.
Carson Calderwood [01:01:11] Yeah. Well, I said to my Stake President, I'm like, isn't the glory of God intelligence? Does the truth has nothing to fear? Won't the truth set us free? And it's like, if that's really the case, if that's really what we believe, then let's kind of let the truth be out and then deal with it.
Advice for Others Facing Church Discipline
John Dehlin [01:01:27] All right, so you expect to be at a disciplinary council within the next couple weeks. What do you think the verdict will be?
Carson Calderwood [01:01:37] I would say before I was 100% certain it was going to be, I was going to be excommunicated. But with my friend talking with the Stake Presidency and other people that will be on the disciplinary council and having them look at it now, I'm not so sure. They might just be one of the. They might change and say, you know what, Carson? If you just continue to not, not push people to go out of the church, you found your path but not encouraged people to do the same thing, then we won't excommunicate you. But we see what you say, that we actually have been worsening the problem rather than helping it. We're going to actually try and change. Look, step back and look at how we can do things a little better and leave it at that. I could see that happening. Still think it's more likely that I'll probably be excommunicated?
John Dehlin [01:02:22] Yeah. The crazy thing is, my guess is the things that you've expressed are very similar to the things I've expressed, right?
Carson Calderwood [01:02:29] Yeah, yeah, exactly.
John Dehlin [01:02:31] And so if they excommunicate you, then they do all sorts of damage. If they disfellowship you or leave you alone, then how does it make sense that they would excommunicate me for certain doubts and disbeliefs that I've expressed, or for my support of ordained women or for same sex marriage, but then in your case, they let you off like that inconsistency kind of makes no sense. And so this becomes again, a really fickle and capricious process that until people speak up and show the inconsistencies and the capriciousness of the process, we won't get anything like consistency. I have a friend, Brian Johnston, who lives in Maryland, who, when I was threatened with discipline, and when Kate Kelly was threatened with discipline, he went to his stake president and said, I believe and doubt everything that John Dehlin and Kay Kelly believe and doubt. And so if you're going to excommunicate them, then you need to excommunicate me. And the stake president came back and said, actually, you're fine. You can keep being an active member of the ward in full fellowship. And so that disparity is just absolutely crazy, right?
Carson Calderwood [01:03:47] Yeah, totally. And I think if I was still attending, that would make a difference. But because I have stopped Attending, and people can see that I'm happier. I think that is the greatest tension here for them.
John Dehlin [01:04:04] Okay, so you think there's a chance that people might speak up and you'll be saved, but you think the likely outcome is excommunication?
Carson Calderwood [01:04:10] Definitely.
John Dehlin [01:04:11] Okay. You know, so there are listeners who are going to be facing church discipline in the coming weeks, months and years. I know it. I know several people right now who are. Who are being called in. I think this is going to become a widespread practice of the church unless the church kind of makes a change. And so is there any suggestions you would give to people who are either, like, scared to do what you're doing and want to back down, or who are thinking about doing it but want to handle it in the best way that they can? Any tips or advice or thoughts you would leave with our listeners who may be facing this?
Carson Calderwood [01:04:51] Yeah, a couple things I would say. Even though it's so scary and as I did it, little by little, by being more open, the satisfaction that comes from living authentic is huge. And I love that it's addicting a little bit, and it makes me want to be more and more authentic. Also, when you do open up and all these people that are silently doubting that you would never know come up to you and they're like, I understand what you're saying. I feel that way, too. The bond you form with those people is so much more powerful than it was when you're kind of living superficially with others, you know, and not all relationships in the church are superficial by any means, but it kind of can be. But then when you have that thing, when you let them know, you know, I. That bothers me as well. I read the essay on the church and the priesthood, and it made me. I felt, learn these things I didn't know. And you just can bond so strongly over that. That's amazing. And that can be very uplifting. So I encourage you to test that out, step a little bit out and be a little more vulnerable, and hopefully the authenticity and the good vibes you get back from other people will outweigh the negative that you get. Two is just think, take one for the team a little bit, maybe have that attitude. If you do this, if you put yourself out there and help shed light on this process, you can help people stand back because they just need something. And especially if you're on the inside more than I am. Like before I released that letter, I had a lot of credibility. As soon as we released that letter, I lost a lot of the Inside credibility. So if you're on the inside and you say, this doesn't seem very Christlike to me, how we're treating these people, I don't think Christ would do that. Let's try and be more loving. You can make the change, and. And that'll feel good to know you're helping make the world a better place.
John Dehlin [01:06:42] Beautiful. Well, Carson Calderwood. It's a brutal process. It's inhumane. It's very impersonal, and it's really an awful thing to go through. And at the same time, you know, I'm super happy. I feel more honest than I've ever felt. I feel happy. I feel like a huge burden has been lifted. And I'm really proud, personally, that I was able to stand up for truth. I was able to stand up for the value of free expression. I was able to stand up against a practice that I think is barbaric and damaging both to the church and its members and to the people who leave. And I can just say that for me, it's been wonderful. It's been terrible and wonderful, terrible because it feels so awful from a church social perspective and from a community perspective and sometimes from a family perspective. But the friendships I've gained, the relationships that I've deepened, standing for truth and for integrity and standing up against, in effect, to a bully just is such a joyful and an edifying thing. And I feel like I still have my morality intact, my commitment to my family, my love of mankind, all the goodness I've retained. And I feel like the more that people who feel comfortable are willing to do what you're doing, I think we'll make even more dramatic, positive changes for those who remain in the church. And here at Mormon Stories and with the Open Stories foundation and in other cool places, we're going to keep providing support for people who are leaving the church. So my hope is a better and a brighter day for those who stay in the church and for those who leave. And I just want to salute you for your contributions.
Carson Calderwood [01:08:46] Thank you. Do what is right and let the consequences follow. Right.
John Dehlin [01:08:49] Very well said. All right, Carson. So, you know, good luck with your experience. Hang in there. I hope your. Your family's okay. It's always curious. They don't go after the spouse, you know? So it sounds like your wife's been kind of left alone in all this. Right?
Impact on Marriage and Reflections on Membership
Carson Calderwood [01:09:06] Yeah. Which also is infuriating for her that they're only going through me when she agrees and has said everything the same as me. And if she were to have A council, it would be with just the bishopric, and so she's not very happy.
John Dehlin [01:09:20] Yeah, that's not a great option, I guess, huh?
Carson Calderwood [01:09:23] Yep.
John Dehlin [01:09:24] All right, well, Carson, good luck with everything, and maybe we'll have you back on Mormon stories to kind of tell us what happened, and maybe this podcast will help. Will help, you know, kill the deal. Would your preference be to be excommunicated?
Carson Calderwood [01:09:39] To be honest, I don't care. To me, it's like I'm emotionally not a part of the business side of the organization. Even the spiritual side, I'm still part of the community. So whether I'm on the records or not, it makes no difference. I still love the people there. I'm gonna still keep going. I'm still Mormon. It's in my DNA. Can't get away from it.
John Dehlin [01:09:58] So you'll call yourself Mormon even if you're not lds?
Carson Calderwood [01:10:02] Yeah. Yep. Technically, my kids will still go to scouts at the Mormon Church. At least they do for now. And I can't get it out of me. You know, it's 100% part of me for almost 40 years now.
John Dehlin [01:10:13] And you don't just have a preference that they leave you alone and just kind of drop it.
Carson Calderwood [01:10:17] That actually would be. That would be my preference. If they could just say, you know, at this. Even if they. They're not. They think it would be better to excommunicate me. Like, you know what? Let's not worry about this right now. Let's worry about helping the people that are hurting. Let's just ignore Carson. He's going to do what he's going to do whether he's excommunicated or not. So leave it at that. So hopefully that could happen.
John Dehlin [01:10:35] All right, that's what we'll hope for.
Carson Calderwood [01:10:38] Excellent.
John Dehlin [01:10:38] All right, Carson, thanks for your courage.
Carson Calderwood [01:10:40] All right, thank you, John.
John Dehlin [01:10:41] Good luck with everything.
Carson Calderwood [01:10:42] All right, take care.
John Dehlin [01:10:43] You, too. All right, well, to our listeners, thank you so much for joining us today. Thanks to all of you who provide financial support to Mormon Stories. It's what keeps the podcast alive, you know, Please join us@mormonstories.org if you want to ask Carson questions. You can post them there. If you have comments or thoughts. If any of you are facing church discipline and you want to make your story known, we want to do everything we can to bring light and sunlight to these processes. So please reach out and, you know, if any of you want to intervene on Carson's behalf or contact his stake president, I'm sure you can get a hold of Carson and do what you can to kind of keep these types of travesties from continuing. So please get involved. Please speak up and speak your conscience when you're safe. And thanks for joining us on Mormon Stories, and we hope to hear, you know, hear from you again soon. So thanks so much, listeners, and we'll talk to you next time. Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber at Mormon Stories. Music for this episode was provided by the Lower Lights.
Carson Calderwood [01:12:13] When with a wounded heart, anger or malice, I draw myself apart, searching my soul.
Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.
133 Responses
How sad. Kudos to Carson and his family.
Honest seekers of truth are a rare breed, but more and more people are questioning and then leaving the church. If it brings one to the temporary path of doubt, pain, grief, or being excommunicated with the eventuality of experiencing sheer happiness and joy then it will be worth it. This is what I found when I left the church quietly. I saw no need to remove my name from the church records, or make public my questioning and disbelief because I knew in my heart, after researching and going within, that what they are about did not fit with my spirit, was not truth and I no longer considered myself a “member”. If more LDS people knew the truth about the churches involvement in MK Ultra, the Masons, Illuminati Bloodlines, Blood Atonement, etc, they would RUN from the church.
Calderwoods, Take heart that you are on the right path of knowing the real “truth of all things.” My prayers are with you as you deal with what lies ahead.
I stand in support of you, you will be in my prayers and thoughts, the LDS church is so cowardly that they don’t want anyopne to challenge its authority oir if they have handicaps or challenges of faith they are persecuted by the church, I know I was disfellowshipped and went through hell with the church for 7 years. Hang in there.
Paul Martin
Palm Bay 1st Ward
The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints, Palm Bay Florida.
Dear Calderwood family, You are not alone. God bless you all for taking a stand for the truth. Create another community in the absence of one. God & Jesus is on your side and by your courage others who know of your integrity will also step out in time. Grateful for leaving a cult whose operation/manipulation will become clear by the day. God Blesses.
I resigned quietly, now I wish I had been more vocal.😔 I think some of us are social activists and others, like me, just give up. I applaud Kate Kelly, John Dehlin and Carson Calderwood for their courage!!! Your examples should be celebrated and shouted from the rooftops. You are not alone, we “see” you and send our love. Your integrity inspires me, and if there is a God, it would inspire it/her/him too. Thank you.
Ditto to that…
You guys almost make me wish that I’d had the nerve to stick it out until they excommunicated me, instead of resigning, even though I know that at the time, I did not have the emotional fortitude to do so.
Thank you both (John and Carson), and others like you, for having the courage to do what you’re doing on behalf of the rest of us. As the saying goes, “It’s a dirty job, but somebody had to do it.”
Well said, Kailey Steed. You’ve just now stepped up to the plate!
Excellent interview. Short and to the point but also very informative.
Carson, thanks for being willing to put yourself out here like this and for your thoughtful and respectful approach to things. It’s great to hear from just an average Church member about the pragmatic details of their lived experience in coming to terms with Mormonism and having it ultimately end with threat of a disciplinary council. I’ll be interested in hearing how it turns out.
John, I’d love to see more interviews similar to this or even a series of short-format 30-45 minute interviews from “average” members that describe their individual faith journeys. Just a short bio on their lives in the Church and a quick covering of a few key reasons for their leaving the Church and key thoughts about those reasons. You could interview fully out couples, partially-believing couples, “mixed-faith” couples, people who have divorced over the issues (a huge problem for which the Church should be ashamed), etc.
The point would be to make an episode fit within one or two commutes and allow listeners to connect personally with other “average” members. Seems to me that these “average” members have to be your fastest-growing listener demographic. I’m one of them (so perhaps the above is just confirmation bias?) and have to say that it was really great hearing from Carson in a short format since I felt like I could relate so much to everything he’s experienced as just a “regular, faithful member” who’s not a huge activist, etc.
Anyway, excellent interview. Thanks again to you both.
Excellent suggestion for John Dehlin. As a supporting member of MS podcast, I’d also like to see shorter versions of interviews. Perhaps there could be a second-order Reader’s Digest version of many old interviews that are still timely?
I thought the same. Also I’d be interested in some anonymous interviews with maybe people who have left quietly, who feel they have to hide so really haven’t resigned or whatever but are thoroughly done but feel they are stuck. The couples who are divided on the issue and what they’re doing with that. Etc. I’d be interested to know how many people are out there like that. I am, and I know lately, figured I was alone, but now I’ve run into just tons more.
Thanks Tineke and Lightworker. I’ll try to followup here if anyone has questions for me.
Carson – From the photo of you and your family, it appears that you may have a child under the age of 8. If so, would you still baptize that child if you are excommunicated? (why or why not). Would your wife and other children resign or stay members for social reasons?
Dallin, we have one that just turned 8 and yes, our youngest is 5. We let our 8 year old decide and although he saw his friends getting baptized he said that he didn’t want to. I think he felt like if he did he would have to attend. We’ve said they could do whatever they want and they have all chosen not to attend, mostly because it was boring. Our 13 year old had already developed some cognative dissonance and was glad to separate spiritually but he still attends scouts to be with his friends. So far, so good for about 8 months now.
Carson, I very much appreciate your bravery in telling your story. Having been in a similar situation for many years, there is peace in hearing about fellow travelers. RM, temple marriage, 4 children, fellow doubter… I unfortunately have not been open about my feelings to fellow members. I don’t know if I can be as brave, at least not yet. I am very happy for you that your wife is with you on this path. Good luck with your disciplinary council.
Hey mate,
carson, just heard your interview. I was wondering if you would be able to email all the stuff you have doubts about and kinda tell me about them and explain them a bit, that would mean the world to me. Thanks heaps mate.
Derek, here is a link to my main questions, in 7 categories, with TONS of citations for proof that they are legitimate concerns
https://bit.ly/7LDSquestions
I have literally 100’s of other things that to me prove the church is not what it says it is and needs to be seen at best as an inspired church with fallible leaders that occasionally do things incorrectly but that list is a good shortcut to a few primary sources on things that happened much differently than you learn about in Sunday School or seminary.
I just wonder why the councils and possible excommunication is such a big deal to you? You clearly don’t believe in the main principle that the LDS church espouses. Why not leave and join a better church?
Trey, its pretty simple. We are in a position to be a voice for all those people that can’t speak up about having doubts (for many reasons) or for those that are shamed into silence after speaking. I don’t care what happens to me so I can be their voice. I’m doing it for them, the people I don’t know but have doubts and don’t want to get excommunicated, etc. Their suffering moves me to action in their behalf.
This is my first time ever commenting on a post, but feel inspired by you. I have a crisis of faith in my life. Life time member Return missionary, temple marriage–many callings–3 kids. I have not outed my self–all my family is active.But , I believe more than people or institutions, I must be true to my Savior and following the spirit and it has guided to know not all I teach at church is true.Still trying to get a grip on it–just need to put it out of there, this is my first step.
I have many historical and factual problems with the church today. But, my doubts started teaching with the missionaries as ward mission leader and deny baptism to an amazing person who just could not give up coffee.(and yes I understand the importance of obedience)but could not see Christ being on earth and deny someone to commit to him in the waters of baptism due to coffee–Mark 7:19-21.What enters the belly does not corrupt the heart. Ultimately, I want to follow Christ, and not deny him–but accepting falsehoods as given by Christ is to me Denying him. And I must stand alone before Gods judgement the church won’t be their. I love this church and has brought great joys in my life and plan on always attending, but do not believe.
Leo, thanks for sharing. It’s inspiring to hear the stories back. Find that balance between authenticity and too much push back.
Fabulous. I so wish EVERYONE could hear this. We need to change the practice of disciplinary councils and the current fear culture. We have to allow people to be human. (No man has authority to sever our relationship with God so there’s no fear there.)
Whole-heartedly agree with you, Meg. “Disciplinary” councils must become “Discussion Councils”, else this male-dominated institution will continue to implode until it is simply irrelevant.
I wonder, if any of you had to answer the temple recommend interview questions, minus the one asking whether you support anti-Mormon groups, could you answer yes to the other questions? Which ones would you exclude as unimportant as to your salvation? Just curious.
Dallas, when Clifton Jolley (your kin?) chaired my 2012 Salt Lake Sunstone Symposium paper, he referred for the record to his mission among the Chippewa Indians and called me “…the craziest man I know…”, which I took as a compliment.
In my paper I refer to a dream I had in August 2010 where I have come to see the bishop with a message. The bishop in the dream (who looks exactly as the bishop in real life) does not register the message because he is too distracted by trivia and a continual interruptions by regular church members.
This bishop and I were good friends and he became my personal physician. When we first met in his private church office a year and half earlier, he did not know me or anything of my background, but the first words out of his mouth was to tell me the dream that had brought him to our town and this particular ward. That surprised me wondrously, because he was speaking my language and I felt that we had immediately connected at a level of personal truth that few church members (let alone non-church members) ever achieve. I was able to introduce him to a dream work protocol that surprised and impressed him.
But, alas, back to my dream about him, he behaved in real life just as the dream presented. That is, he was too distracted to register my message: that “the Lord does not recognize the two excommunications that I have experienced because they were done with ‘unrighteous dominion'”.
Dallas, please feel free to respond to this comment with something more authentic than referring to scripture.
It’s interesting to hear about members being disciplined for “apostasy.” I really enjoyed this interview. I did feel like maybe John was inserting himself into the dialogue a little bit too much?
@kailey steed.
Don’t think your just resigning doesn’t have an effect on the social feelings of those around you. A year ago an entire family in my ward quietly resigned. They are still friends to many with in the church. They have and continue to show members like me that there is happiness after the church. They show the people in the ward that an apostate is not a bad word. They highlight some of the feer tactics used with in the church. Every one has a part in this beautiful thing we call life.
Thank you for this. It makes me feel a little better about taking the coward’s way out and resigning, instead of continuing to argue with them until they excommunicated me.
I’m still married to Mormonism — it goes with my beloved TBM husband. I am also still in touch with many of our Mormon friends, and even though I’ve turned Unitarian Universalist since then, I can still more or less fit in with the Mormons, even to the point where some of them don’t realize that I’m no longer a member. I guess I’m religiously bicultural now…
The bottom line is that I really have no idea what effect my influence is having on others (you know the one about the ripples from the pebble dropped in the pond). I like to hope that it’s positive, at least overall.
Maybe you’re right. Maybe those of us who aren’t strong or brave enough to get ourselves excommunicated can also have an effect by just quietly walking away, especially if anyone is paying attention to the statistics.
Way to stand up for the Truth. You are not alone in the struggle. Thousands are on their way out.
Great interview. We left at the same time and are about the same age. Nice to relate to another family like ours. Thanks for speaking up for truth and good luck in the next few weeks! I am really surprised that after leaving almost a year ago, they are now coming after you. Awkward. :)
Loved the interview! So grateful for those who are willing and able to stand up and be voices for the many who can’t or aren’t in positions to do the same. It saddens me that so many have to stay silent and live in fear of speaking their truth. I know there are many quiet people who are secretly hurting who need to have hope that someday maybe things can change from the cultural pressure cooker they currently feel trapped in. Thank you for your courage and your integrity.
Carson,
I respect you and your wife for sharing your experience. The courage you have both shown will help other people who have studied the church’s truth claims. And what a gift to your children! Truth and honesty.
I admire you and your wife for publicly expressing your views. In my opinion, you are helping many others who are afraid to express their views publicly. And what a gift to your children! Truth & Honesty.
Two thumbs up!
Dear Brother Calderwood: Last night I was reading a paper my daughter had just written for her Book of Mormon Class at BYU about Alma the Younger teaching and counseling his sons. That, like so many other accounts in the Book of Mormon encourage us to live righteously and draw near to our Father in Heaven. I was reading in the Doctrine and Covenants last night, and every time I read what the Lord has said to us makes me realize that with all of my education and experience reasoning and writing, I don’t know how I could get my mind in a place where I could imitate the mind and will of the Lord. Section 19 is a great example of the Savior pouring His heart out to us. As for the Book of Abraham, I don’t care whether it was given a translation or a revelation, the Spirit has confirmed to me that it is true. As for polygamy, this is a hard doctrine, but I am reminded what Clayton Christensen has reminded us that God’s ways are not our ways, and to understand His eternal perspective seems a bit out of our understanding in our mortal state. The key to our spiritual development is our faith, and faith requires us to be obedient so that we can always have His spirit to be with us. Brother Calderwood, put your life in order and the Spirit will help you over your spiritual trials. Christianity falls back to the old position that it is by grace ye are saved and that God loves us all and will bring all of us home, but Christ at times taught hard doctrine, and many walked no more with him. Where else shall be go to hear the words of eternal life? Terry Givens’ book, The Crucible of Doubt is a great book that may help. As for women in the church, they all receive priesthood authority to act in the callings they are given. I testify to you that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, that the Book of Mormon was abridged by Mormon the Prophet and that the Priesthood of God was restored to the earth by John the Baptist, Peter, James and John, and Elijah, Moses, Moroni, the Savior, and others who conversed and gave authority to Joseph Smith. No other religion on the face of the earth ties it all together like the Church of Jesus Christ. To this I testify to you.
Sincerely, Brother Jolley, Mercer Island Ward, Bellevue South Stake of Zion.
@brother jolly
He did just what you ask him to do. He was obedient for many many years doing all the church asked of him. This shows tremendous faith on his part. He did not get a witness from the Holy Ghost except when he watched a Hollywood movie. He did his part, the church failed on theirs. Or did you listen to a different pod cast than what I listened to?
sincerely king Lamoni, Fellow brother in Christ. Eugene Oregon stake of Zion.
Just put your life in order and then the Spirit will give you the exact same answers as me! If you are getting a different answer, then by golly, your life is not in order. Period.
Stefanie – what a sad and unsupportive comment. From the podcast I gather that Caron has a loving and committed wife that he speaks very highly of, he has 4 beautiful children, he is a dentist. It sounds like he is respected and liked by many people. He has gone out of his way and has been unselfish enough to try and help those in need during the challenging time of a faith crises. He speaks very kindly of those that have been involved in a negative situation involving a potential excommunication, which I’m sure most people would find difficult to do. He is highly concerned about how this will affect his parents, much more than his own self. He sounds like a loving, caring and happy person.
In my opinion it sounds Carson’s life is very much in order.
I think that Stefanie was really saying the opposite.
Stefanie: There are perhaps only about 2 million TBMs remaining. 70% are not active/don’t care/don’t believe anymore/others are there for social reasons/I am faking for family reasons. You need to keep praying to God and Jesus to lead you to the truth if your heart so desires.
God blesses.
It is important to be willing to submit to the Father’e will or we won’t make it. Abraham commanded to sacrifice his son Isaac is a difficult situation which is hard to understand. God’s ways are not always our ways, and our sensibilities may not line up with his. Political correctness is an example of how Satan prevents the discussion of sin and as such sins are accepted as norms. Getting in tune with the Spirit also entails being open to not politically correct answers. Think about it. As I said, those who doubt the Book of Mormon as being scripture don’t think about how it brings us closer to Christ. That is its purpose. It accomplishes that, but if you get out in the weeds, we don’t even read to see if it is inspired. I dismiss arguments against the Book of Mormon because, by your fruits ye shall know them. The Book of Mormon has the fruits.
If your beliefs are confined to what is in the Book of Mormon we would hardly have any dispute about what is the Gospel. The LDS church has Masonic temples and other damaging beliefs hence 70 % of the membership is not active and perhaps about 15% TBM. It is for political reasons that they claim a membership of 15 million which includes many who are dead.
While there is a lot that are inactive, I doubt that it is as high as 70%. The fact that stakes are being created and temples are being built is evidence of continued growth in our day.
The building of new temples is to keep the “faithful” believing we are growing everywhere and to keep them paying up and their families locked down as much as possible. God will not not be mocked by this charade of monuments while the poor go without shoes to pay up.
Most of the fruit in the Book of Mormon are fabricated by Joe Smith and friends. It is like the foundation Jesus talks about, re the house that is built on sand.
Now that the flood of all kinds of reliable knowledge are available, “the fall of that house [BOM] is great.”
Even as the LDS church has room for drifters and fanatics, they should also make room for those who want to enrich and purify this church. Instead of excommunicating the best and the brightest Members. The church is still trying to cover up too much of its own weaknesses.
Dallas, did you listen to the podcast? Don’t you think he’s heard everything you wrote thousands of times before? Its a little insulting to offer solutions when you don’t know what the problem is.
Typical TBM response from someone who hasn’t dug into the issues that Carson, and thousands of other members, have serious doubts and issues withub Mormonism… Very disingenuous to ask “Brother Calderwood to put his life in order”….
From Brother Dallas Jolley’s own website (Bankruptcy Attorney):
“Unfortunately, there are many myths about bankruptcy that need to be exposed for what they are, just myths.”
“…myths about bankruptcy have arisen mainly because of misunderstandings, incorrect reporting by news commentators, and incorrect statements made by so-called experts….”
He then proceeds to expose 10 common myths about bankruptcy.
I’m tempted to bear testimony that what he calls myths are actually true, and urge him to get his financial life in order and to stop deceiving people on his website. But that would be completely out of line and rude (especially since I haven’t researched his myths to find out if indeed he’s correct)
Thank you Gary for saying that the myths I state are not myths at all, when they are exactly that, myths. Bankruptcy is based on principles of justice and mercy. I think the funniest thing is when people who are bankrupt ask whether bankruptcy will ruin their credit.
Dallas – So you were offended by the arrogance of my comments? Do you think I have no right or authority to correct you regarding bankruptcy law? You’re right! Now you know how Carson must feel about your comments toward him!
The fact that you completely missed the irony is very telling. Your reply made my point perfectly (even though you’re undoubtedly at a loss to see how)
Maybe you’ll understand a more direct approach: Carson is probably an expert in the myths of Mormonism in the same way you consider yourself an expert in the myths of bankruptcy. Indeed he could legitimately say:
“Unfortunately, there are many myths about MORMONISM that need to be exposed for just what they are, just myths”
For you to tell him to get his spiritual life in order and call him to repentance is just as arrogant and out of line as me telling you that you’re wrong about your list of bankruptcy myths and that you’re leading people astray with bad financial information. Do you get it now? (Hint: it’s NOT about bankruptcy)
You may be an expert in bankruptcy law, but that knowledge does not carry over into other areas. You assume a posture of superior knowledge of Mormonism and authority over Carson that you simply don’t have.
Your directive to Carson to “put his life in order” is not out of love for him and his family, but rather it’s the typical TBM priesthood leader’s propensity to assert unrighteous dominion. It’s the epitome of arrogance.
Do you know what the funniest thing about this is? Nearly everyone here will know precisely what I’m talking about and you will be one of the few still in the dark (despite your law degree).
Such a normal, even protestant, response to deep concerns. Funny how i just heard a born – again Christian make identical points. No, not about the bom or boa. it was all about the Bible of course but the points we’re identical. Faith, I feel it, we need it, we just hang on no matter how weird the belief, God’s ways are higher, we’ll be blessed for our simple belief, etc. Yet, using his “Faith” he has come to a completely different place. I have a lot more respect for honest inquiry and willingness to change than I have for the whole “Faith” routine.
Dallas,
Here is how I read the heart of your testimony:
“[My religious authorities taught me] the key to our spiritual development is our faith, and faith requires us to be obedient [to the God of my religious authorities] so that we can always have [the god of my religious authorities’] Spirit to be with us.
If you were to recognize that your validating subjective experiences inside Mormonism are indistinguishable from those of hundreds of millions of Hindus, Muslims, and other Christian sects, you’d recognize how circular your reasoning is. You might also understand that genuine humility means breaking that circle and confronting the consequences. Perhaps then you’ll also discover another level of compassion – the kind that exists between people who have only each other to make their way through what may be their one brief life together … and then won’t feel comfortable about giving such testimonies.
Best wishes
J
I joined back in 1975 at age 17 and served a mission at age 19 . Was told by Elder Packer before my mission to stay clear of anti Mormon info and the Tanners , i was obedient and did what i was told till 2011 and found the Elder Delbert Stapley letter to Gov George Romney back in 1964 and from that point in Sep it was more and more . I wasn’t ever intending to leave the church . But the overwhelming facts i count not just sweep them underneath the rug. John 16 tells it like no other religion , Jesus never left us alone , nor did he need a boy like Joseph Smith to restore it and restore it like Smith did , which was nothing Christ like at all . All i did was do what others do, make themselves feel it is true to the point they think they have truth and facts , but nothing but a feeling .
Joseph had many versions of his vision, and not one single witness to it . Book Of Mormon, no maps no proof, in fact my 1830 copy and my 1977 missionary edition are not alike , kinda strange since it came from the plates , should be 100 % alike , 4000 errors , major ones that raise the eyebrows , and damper that warm feeling in ones chest . I believed Joseph when he said ” I can only find 1 wife ” not 7. turns out he was lying , and the church writes a nice essay saying he did have 33 wives, i would also have liked to hear the church say he lied . Then how could they ? Only true church ? not even close .
Sorry but your a perfect example of a person who has been brainwashed by fictional accounts all around. If you want to continue spilling your brain with such utter nonsense go right ahead. The Book of Mormon is a work of fiction that Smith lifted along with the Book of Abraham, Mormonism is a sole corporation and does not even have members. BYU 77
How is the church demonizing doubters if they allowed Carson to hold a lot of callings while he was open about his doubts? He isn’t a doubter any more. He doesn’t believe, right? So he says? The point of excommunication is to say “you aren’t on the right path spiritually” so the church leaders are following what it says in the doctrine and covenants. This is sad only because it will be sad for your parents but this part of being a member of a church.
Can you link to the exit blog post (or Facebook link) referenced in the interview? Thanks.
Mensch – Here you go!
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10727706/Stepping%20away%20from%20traditional%20Mormonism.pdf
Thanks, John!
The link doesn’t work anymore.
try this https://bit.ly/1FlJfkw
The new link doesn’t work either :(. I would love to have the original doc, thanks.
Both links work for me.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10727706/Stepping%20away%20from%20traditional%20Mormonism.pdf
Another Mormon excommunicated for telling the truth. When will the carnage end?
Carson, I listened to your interview this morning. Thanks for standing up for others and trying to create a safe space within Mormonism for doubters and nonbelievers that still want to fellowship, serve, and love one another. I especially appreciated that some of your fellow ward/stake members made an effort to help your persecutors see through the fear and understand the good that you enable. It makes me hopeful for a future where the LDS community can mature and thereby welcome all who would help lift others. We just need more stories like yours!
Dear Dallas Jolley,
Have you ever thought maybe you should examine your “faith”? If your faith allows you to allow other people to interpret God for you and do things that are ethically questionable, polygamy, polyandry, translating an Egyptian funeral document into the Book of Abraham, maybe you would be wise to think about this faith you have and if it is really just blind obedience to something you don’t want to give serious thought about. Blind obedience to presumed authority has allowed societies to perpetuate some of the most atrocious acts in history. Obedience in of itself is hardly admirable. If you never bother to question the reasons you are being obedient or question the authority you are being obedient to, you haven’t done your homework as a mature and responsible adult. You are just doing some other’s will and following unexamined rules. If you think that will get you into the glorious kingdom of God, then you must think God loves a community of unthinking, immature fools. Your Holy Ghost speaks to you and you know the truth? Amazing how you could do that for every soul upon the earth. One would almost think you are God himself, even though you claim you cannot fully know God through experience or, that God’s ways are not our ways. Apparently you do think you know God and his ways, apparently you know him so well you know what he wants for every person. And you, Dallas Jolley, know, that if Brother Claderwood will just have faith and be obedient, all his spiritual problems will go away. May I address you now as God? Dallas Jolley? For you obviously know what God’s children should all do and how they should go about it, therefore, I would say you must think you are the equivalent of God’s mind. I would believe that such a sanctimonious and self-righteous stance as you take as a mere mortal for knowing sooo much about God and what he wants and what he wills would be the very thing that would put questions in a thinking person’s mind as to the validity of such absolutist, all knowing, self-glorious statements. Dallas Jolley says he can never know the whole of God’s will and mind, but he knows so much of his will and mind as to be able to tell every other soul on earth, including Brother Calderwood, what they should do and how they should believe and what faith they should have to gain the everlasting glory of God. Huh! You are an amazing mortal, God Dallas.
Dallas Jolley manages, on many, perhaps most podcasts of this nature, to give a TBM response to every question. He has all the answers [in reality he has none!!] but his self-righteousness overcomes any ability to realize that. I wonder what on earth he is going to do as constant future truths and reality about the church finally overwhelms and overtakes the lies and cover-ups.
Dallas didn’t deserve that. Don’t be vitriolic. He’s probably a good man trying to help.
I think the Book of Abraham situation was a truly divine expose of Joseph Smiths lifestyle and desires. A life of conning people in so many ways.
It is a demonstration of the fact that he had no abilities to translate Egyptian,
and that he never hesitated to fake it at every turn. He was interested mainly in power over others in almost every form. The opposite of a “Christ.”
And as we well know, he was exposed more than once about his made up “scriptures.”
The inconsistent treatment of dissent points to a leadership gap at the top. Stake presidents have no guidance on how to deal with rational, truthful doubters. You should encourage your SP to raise this “lack of guidance” issue with regional (and higher) leadership since leaving it up to stake autonomy is creating a PR mess for the church and squandering real opportunities for growth.
Carson,
As a lawyer, one thing that I believe is manifestly unfair about the church discipline process is that, while Handbook 1 says the accused can bring the witnesses and evidence he or she wants, the accused may lack sufficient notice beforehand of the details of the accusations. This creates a problem because the accused may not bring the right evidence or the right witnesses.
I recommend explaining to your stake president that, in order for you to be able to bring the appropriate witnesses and evidence for your defense, you need to know (1) the charge/accusation that the council will bring against you and any applicable definition of the charge (2) the evidence that the council intends to rely upon to support that accusation, and (3) how that evidence supports the accusation. For example, if you’re being accused of apostasy, which definition or definitions of apostasy from Handbook 1 will the council use? What actions of yours will the council consider relevant to those definitions? How do those actions meet those definitions? (For instance, was your exit a letter a problem? If so, which portions? How do those portions meet the definitions of Handbook 1?)
Explain to the stake president that, in order to have a fair hearing, you need this information well in advance of the council, so that you can gather evidence and witnesses and be fully prepared for the council. Otherwise, you risk presenting witnesses and/or evidence that is not germane to the council’s decision. At best, this will waste both your and the council’s time. At worst, it will compromise the integrity of the council’s decision because, without having sufficient notice, you were unable to present (and the council was unable to hear) a complete presentation of all the relevant evidence.
I believe that you can maximize the impact of your participation in this process by, in the interest of fairness and the integrity of the process, requesting sufficient notice. If they refuse, they’ll look horrible and expose the process as a kangaroo court. If they agree, they will set a precedent with respect to how they are applying Handbook 1, which may benefit those accused in the future.
These are just some thoughts that have arisen as I’ve observed the flaws in Kate’s and John’s councils. You don’t owe anything to anyone, so feel free to disregard some or all of my advice. :)
I wish you and yours all the best through what is sure to be a difficult process.
Whether with Carson, Kirk Van Allen, Kate Kelly, or John Dehlin, bringing church discipline for apostasy only serves to expose far more members to difficult historical and doctrinal issues.
I doubt I would have ever learned about these difficult historical and doctrinal issues without the Salt Lake Tribune article on the disciplinary council threats from John’s and Kate’s stake presidents.
Less than a year after reading that article, I’ve listened to hundreds of hours of podcasts (e.g., Mormon Stories, Mormon Expression, Infants on Thrones, and My Book of Mormon), read Rough Stone Rolling twice, read Mormon Enigma, and am reading In Sacred Loneliness and Mormonism and the Magic World View.
In his efforts to “protect” the members of his stake, John’s stake president initiated my faith crisis/transition (and probably those of many others). His stake president really should have thought things through. Oh well.
I hope that this great interview will remind people to not “quietly resign” but rather force the church to take action and kick people out. It will only take a few more years of that mentality before they finally realize that “disciplinary councils” are ultimately going to erode the membership and certainly not invite more people to join LDS Inc.
JRC,
Thanks, that is good. I’ll definitely do some of that.
Thank you John and Carson for standing for truth! Excellent podcast!
I know Carson personally and he’s incredible in so many ways. One of the things I respect most about (and, I feel has brought him under scrutiny from church leadership) is that he doesn’t ignore those that express doubts and have questions…he walks with them.
Carson, you are a great example of the way “Mormons/Christians” should behave: inclusive, patient and without judgment.
I really appreciate you sharing your story with me personally and here on Mormon Stories.
You have a profound impact on many. That is seen as a threat within the church, but I don’t believe it is by accident. Perhaps this is your new “calling”.
Voices like yours are needed; in and out of the church. But the decision of which, in or out, should be up to you.
Carson
I appreciate your willingness to share your experiences both in your search for spiritual truth as well as the ramifications in your life for exposing “hidden facts” that the Church has rewritten and wants to pretend do not exist though recorded in numerous historical accounts. It is not easy to “sell” a product that has proven intrinsic flaws. As you tell your story what I heard is that you earnestly tried within your marriage for years and with other Church members to somehow soften the blow and smooth the pain that is inevitable when “truth” outshines calculated deceit and the soul realizes its violation. That simply shows you are a man of integrity with a true love for your fellow man. I also felt it was a cathardic exchange for both you and John.
I am not convinced however that subjecting yourself to the Church proceeding of possible excommunication which would label you an apostate enhances your ability to share your message from a place of strength. I think the “Church” in moving so quickly with “Courts of Love” is its attempt to silence by defamation (apostate label) anyone who speaks the truth. Thereby giving the apperance to the uninformed or easily manipulated that it is “You” who has lost your way. The Church as it stands today cannot exist if questions can be asked or doubters can speak their minds with freedom within its ranks. Its very life depends on deception and absolute obedience by its membership with the threat of silence, violent death and damnation. I mean that is intense!
How fortunate that you and Marisa are able to transition together and how blessed that your beautiful little family have you as parents to guide and teach them.
Dear Carson,
Thanks for sharing your story. I relate to everything in your story. Like John Dehlin, you are the kind of person the church should go to great effort to keep in the church.
It would seem the church would see how counter-productive it is to e eliminate “the best and the brightest” because of non-conforming beliefs. At the same time, the church is keeping smart people out.
It seems that conformance is all-important, with love taking a back seat. Not a good idea to replace love with “the manual.” Love is truth and doesn’t need to be proven. There should be only one question: Do you believe in love?
I like John Dehlin’s idea of forming a face to face community.
Looking at the origins of religions, including the Mormon “seer stone” religion, it seems the need for humans to stop believing in imaginary beings has never been more compelling.
Interesting interview. Is there a phenomenon where you break up with somebody but can’t leave them alone? In fact, you even go to the extreme where you think you can help the other person when they don’t want your help, or your advice.
Why not just leave, and leave the organization alone? Thousands do this every year and never look back.
I’ve had more mormons knock on my door to talk about religion than ex-mormons.
Many of those leaving have charity for their family & friends who are still being deceived & taken advantage of by the Church, and thus try to wake them up too. They have found the real truth and just want to share it with others, to see who might have ears to hear.
It’s like when you realize you’re on the Titanic you want to try to alert as many as possible to the problems & save them.
I find it interesting that the LDS & FLDS seem so full of fear to talk about religion with anyone from the ‘outside’ or anyone with ‘doubts, questions, or unfamiliar knowledge of Church history. While on the other hand, most of my many relatives & friends in any many other different religions are very open & willing & eager to talk to ‘outsiders’, and compare beliefs and listen, discuss & reason together. But not most LDS or FLDS. What is this fear that is taught by these churches?
Anon,
If someone wants to be a vocal missionary against any church, that’s fine.
However, why be surprised when the person gets booted from the club if they don’t leave on their own?
Latter-day Saints are not all super intellectual but they have faith and they have seen miracles because of their faith. Priesthood blessings that result in a miracle as is inspiration received while serving others for the others’ sake is common among faithful Latter-day Saints. A recent convert said she no long felt like a spectator when she attended her ward because everyone is involved in helping others. Those with faith don’t expect to gain physical knowledge of Christ or the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon or Book of Moses or of Abraham because they realize that God would not give us things that are provable by physical evidence because then there would be no need for faith. Call us foolish, but faith always proceeds a miracle, for God can do no work where there is no faith, for they reject Him. Dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith. Ether 12:6. “O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish.” 2 Nephi 9:28 If you have a Book of Mormon, read 2 Nephi Chapter 9. Think about what you read, ponder it in your heart, and pray about it. Go back, read it again and consider the Lord’s counsel, and pray about it again.
Dallas Jolley, what is your relationship to Clifton? Does he know about these comments of yours? If so, what does he say and do you listen to him?
Koa, its easy. Are you more likely to help your friend down the street when they are having a problem or a complete stranger next door? I see people hurting in a way that I hurt for years. They are people I love and hurting in a way that resonates with me. Of course I’m going to reach out and help them.
Why would you recommend walking away is the more appropriate question?
Yikes, I didn’t expect you to read or respond to my drivel, but thanks for doing so. By the way, you look exactly like my best friend from college.
How does leaving any organization impact your ability to help a friend down the street?
How does leaving any organization impact your ability to help a complete stranger next door?
I’m not suggesting you walk away from anyone in need.
Koa, thanks for your comments. You may not realize it but you are suggesting I walk away from people in need when you say, “Why not just leave, and leave the organization alone?” Helping people realize this is what I’m trying to do in addition to helping those in need. If I leave the organization alone I’m leaving the source of the problem alone and not helping those in need. At least that’s the way I see it.
Fair enough.
However, I don’t see how ones religious affiliation has any impact whatsoever on helping others.
If I lived in Washington, I would take my family to your dentistry practice. Maybe we can just make the trek every year to the Seattle area.
Koa, What is your intention ?
Carson is focused on helping families/couples — where one is a believer and the other a doubter — see that there is a way forward, together.
When the church uses excommunication to push someone like him out, there is a cultural stigma (I believe someone used the word “defamation” above). Because of that wedge, believers are much less likely to consider his invitation to love, respect, and reason together with doubters.
So while Carson may not walk away from anyone in need, his ability to help is negatively impacted.
If someone requires being a particular religion as requisite to friendship, I would find other friends.
David,
For families facing significant disagreements regarding finances, religion, or fidelity, they are probably better off seeking a licensed psychologist than a dentist.
People like John Dehlin dedicate years of study to optimally address these issues.
People like Carson dedicate years of study to help maintain a healthy smile. They are vastly different fields.
Koa,
Carson has helped me. By hearing about shared experiences, I realize I am not alone in my pain or my struggles. It has nothing to do with his profession and everything to do with his willingness to share his story, be a friend to those who are in the same situation he is in, and be a listening ear and a shoulder to lean on. It’s very important to people like me and I’m grateful he’s brave enough to do it. :)
Thank you so much for sharing your story, Carson. There are still so many of us that struggle and feel hurt/betrayed by the Church, but aren’t ready/able to “come out”. Thank you for speaking up and fighting for the cause.
The Cumorah Project estimates that there are about 10,000 to 20,000 excommunications from the Mormon church per year. Of course that’s only an estimate because the only folks who have those numbers won’t disclose them. And I wouldn’t know how to differentiate between excommunications based on philosophical differences from those based on moral grounds.
If only there were some place where people who choose to leave the church or who are forced out could self-report so this phenomenon could be studied.
I’m an adult convert to the LDS Church. I believe in the overall teachings of the Church and, as a Clinical Health Care worker, it made sense to me “logically”. There are things I don’t know and that I do not expect to know until the afterlife. Prophets are men and I can understand that errors may occur. I still believe. It’s called faith in my vocabulary. I believe in evolution to a degree (how long is a day in the Lord’s day). Man became man when the spirit of God entered his body. I have felt comfortable turning down callings. I have reported that I’m not very good at wearing my garments and still receive my Temple Recommend. I love people and give service, pray, do not have an addictive personality so the Word of Wisdom is not difficult for me. We don’t have God’s knowledge and I am okay with that. I am not pious enough to assume that I will go to the Celestial Kingdom but I hope to. I feel God has taught different groups of peoples of the world in ways that they can understand and that is how I rationalize the world’s different religions. So, many of the concerns expressed on this blog do not bother me. I have not had visions but if I need one, I will. Faith is believing without proof. I think the fact that I am a convert and previously being active in other Christian Churches has made me be more open to the gaps we have in the LDS doctrine because other churches I have attended had fewer answers!!! The Lord loves all of us. I guess I’m not a TBM and I have never lived in Utah (which would be a hard place for me to live, )working in the health care field and seeing the perfection of the human body and the inter-relationships of species and ecosystems just reinforces my belief in God. I feel that I am what you are feeling that want to be yet you feel uncomfortable with it and I don’t. I feel comfortable and accepted in the LDS church. I enjoyed your podcast and I feel bad that your inner conflicts have been such a struggle or made you feel guilty. I think being raised in a strict LDS household is actually a hindrance to having your own “ah-ha” moment. When you are a convert, it is a conscious decision rather than being raised with it and just expected to go along with it. God be with you for you are loved…
Susan- just one thing!
In the new testament is says, “faith is the evidence of things not seen……”
It reads differently in the BOM because Joseph copied it incorrectly.
Faith is not blind belief, real faith can be substantiated.
Part of one’s faith can in fact be “blind”. We don’t have to a have a sure knowledge of everything to have faith in the whole. Its definitely a process.
John,
Equating your experience with excommunication with Carson’s doesn’t make any sense to me. (i.e. Your comment about the inconsistency in excommunicating Carson versus you.) You’re a well known podcaster that has been very public about your criticisms of the LDS Church. In contrast, Carson doesn’t have a following, podcast, etc. I don’t think you can equate his potential excommunication with your excommunication. They are very different.
Jer,
The similarity is that my SP thinks I’m doing to my stake what John’s thought he was doing to the country. Same thing, smaller scale.
Carson and Marisa,
I had a chance to read through your thoughtful letter of doubts and it is obvious you have a great family and relationship.
We all go through struggles in life, but sometimes I don’t think a context is necessarily created until major crises occur (i.e., death of a child, cancer or serious illness, life changing accident). Hopefully you haven’t and won’t be part of these experiences.
I know for me, things that might have appeared problematic are now trivial. For instance, your open letter mentions the “horror” of finding out women and men might not be equal within the organization. Further, there is mention of how underclothing was a frustration. Really?
Please know I probably would have felt the same about similar types of issues five years ago. However, these problems were unfortunately overshadowed by some life changes problems. You have a great family, great career, and if parents can’t see this, then wish them well.
Carson,
I noticed in your exit letter that you recommend people go to “Rough Stone Rolling” or the “Letter to a CES Director” to learn more about the history of the LDS Church. While I highly recommend that every Mormon read “Rough Stone Rolling,” aren’t there more objective sources of LDS history that you could recommend people read before sending them to the “Letter to a CES Director?” Why not Dialogue? There are many excellent articles on Mormon history found in the pages of Dialogue. Or what about Leonard Arrington’s “The Mormon Experience?”
CES letter is great because its concentrated. How many issues of the amazing works in Dialogue would one have to read to get the same understanding of the problematic version of our history we get in church/seminary/institute? Its and efficiency effort that made us choose those works.
Dear Carson,
Thanks so much for doing the right thing.
When you stand up for the truth, I feel like you are standing up for the rest of us.
Well, except for Dallas Jolley, maybe.
Carson,
You don’t know me, but we have a lot of friends in common in the Maple Valley Stake. I’ve been undercover attending non-believer for well over ten years here. It’ s nice to not feel alone out here. Your seemingly overnight transition must have come as such a shock to so many! I’m still in holding out on the inside, hoping that my rather obvious dismissal of Mormon cultural conventions will allow others to feel more comfortable expressing themselves as well.
The hardest part for me right now is how close to home this is hitting. I always figured that this type of draconian action would be kept far away in UT. Yet here it is, in my stake, with people who I have served with and loved for years on the high council! I wonder, do they feel forced to take these actions because of direct input from SLC, or simply because of the big news events have made them feel that is what is expected?
In any case, I have no idea what your supporters plan to do to show support, but I hope there will be some show of support. Just know that there are more of us out here than those who can show public support!
Good luck!
UndercoverBrother, it always amazes me how many people are in the same boat (to one degree or another). Hopefully this becomes synergistic and the culture changes enough for us to be authentic and live the better lives that comes from living that way. I feel like I love more and serve more because I’m doing it for myself as myself. Thanks for sharing it is inspiring!
I just finished the interview and have to say it was one my favorites. I am confused on what the Church’s position is on this, I recently came out to my Branch President about my serious doubts, a week later I was given a new temple recommend- I was completely honest. I was even more upfront with the 1st Counselor in the Stake Presidency- we talked for over an hour, he too gave me a recommend. I got most of the questions wrong and everything is good for me. The 1st Counselor did tell me that he knew of a lot of folks in our stake in the upper Midwest who are having similar concerns- if only we could get together and support one another?
Mr. Haas, good to hear that you have such supportive leaders!
I bet you got one question right. That you are a full tithe payer.
A very important interview. But I have one issue to raise. Is forcing an excommunication really shedding light, or is it something the Church wants in order to instill institutional fear? Mr. Carson was offered a chance to resign, but even if he permitted that, would there not be some kind of public announcement made?
When all is said and done, removal, whether by excommunication or by voluntary resignation is all about protecting the faithful flock, and it’s either about removing the wolves, or it’s about separating the sheep from the goats.
Having known about most of these historical issues for decades I elected to stay in the Church for years in part because of a keen recognition that I was certainly never a perfect vessel either. I attended Church as a youth in the face of some persecution from a stepmother. I was never afforded the opportunity to go on a mission as my family had so few resources that just 2 days after my high school graduation I was forced out and into the Military. Something that paradoxically ended up being of great value to me. After many years of struggle I stopped attending church because I was legitimately concerned that I might say something that would adversely affect someone else’s testimony. But eventually the historical issues and problems made it clear to me that in spite of my own mistakes, there were just too many scurrilous problems to allow me to remain and participate. So I recently elected to resign by calling in my Bishop, who was and still is, a long time friend, and giving him the requisite resignation letter. For me. that was the most honest approach. For others like John, forcing an excommunication might well serve them better. I am not a wolf, but from the perspective of the self-righteous I might very well be taken for a goat.
The church is making a huge mistake.
I had a very similar mission experience from 2002-2004. I was always such a good kid but I was missing that spiritual witness, especially with regards to temple work (which kind of hits you like a ton of bricks). I figured I’d work super hard for two years and “earn” my testimony. On the way home, after two years of working 16 hour days we went to the temple and it just felt . . . weird.
I continued to work hard to try and get that witness, but when you start to really confront your doubts and the historical record things tend to fall apart. At the time I was attending BYU and my only real “outlet” was the exmormon forum, which is (perhaps understandably) a negative and depressing place to be. I wallowed in that place for several years, feeling like I couldn’t really be myself.
If I’d had access to these types of stories or mentors I would have found my place in the church. Sure, maybe it would have been as a non-believing “social” Mormon, a “less active,” or whatever, but this current policy of ostracizing and excommunicating can’t be good for the long term survival of the church.
I listened to the interview and will have to do it again, but I would like to react first on what’s on my mind now.
Leaders of the church don’t have an excuse. Jesus and Joseph Smith have given them enough tools to check their own attitude if that is right or not. As a leader you have to study the scriptures and let yourself be filled with the Holy Ghost. How is it, that they can make these decisions so much based on fear for what other think and outer looks ?
For instance: Soon it will be Easter. We will have a play on tv called ‘The Passion’, which takes place every year, in another town, with new singers and players. We watch it with millions here in Holland, which is much, because we only have 16 million people here. Everyone, christian and non-christian, are involved in the story: BECAUSE EVERYONE RECOGNISES PIECES IN IT OF THINGS GOING ON NOWADAYS !!!
Leaders in the church of Jesus Christ should study the Easter Episode and ask themselves: which role do I play ? People attending the Church of Jesus Christ, should study the Easter Story and ask them selve: which side will I choose ?
One time in the play Jesus will be brought forward and the people were given the chance to make the choice: Who should be free and who not ? Pilatus hoped they would choose Jesus, but a strange thing happened: the people rather had Barabas being freed than a man without guilt.
What had happened ? When Jesus came forward the followers of Jesus were screaming for Jesus to be freed, but something nasty had been going on: gossip and negative talk about Jesus, pushing and forcing each other to scream ‘Barabas’. And soon the voices of those screaming ‘Jesus’ were not heard anymore !
Listening to Carsons story: first was understood that he had helped people to stay in the church, and than suddenly comes a moment that this understanding is overruled and not heard anymore … only the gossip and negative words are being whispered and as a crowd everyone goes up in this thing without thinking, without empathy, without love, without the learned lesson from Jesus Christ … and another person is cast out because of gossip, lies and wrong attitude … Carson has to face excommunication … all the good things are forgotten.
After Jesus was killed how many people might have wondered if they made the right choice ? Do they regret or are they too indifferent ? It’s already to late, the job was already done ! How can people live and look at themselves in the mirror and think they see a person that is fair and a follower of Jesus ?
Another great lesson leaders could learn from Jesus and Joseph Smith is the story of how we choose to follow Jesus in the life at the beginning of time when we were in Heaven and a great meeting was held where we could choose between Jesus and Satan. Leaders should ask themselves: what kind of church do I want, one of Jesus or one of Satan ? On the fruits of their works they will be recognised. This story of this meeting is soooooo powerful !!!!! Given as shining gift to each member of the church to learn, know and understand the reason why we are on earth: to follow Jesus ? Or to follow Satan ?
In the play ‘My Turn on Earth’ Caroll Lynn Pearson explains it in easy to understand language !
To read the text of ‘I have a plan’:
https://www.lyrics.com/i-have-a-plan-my-turn-on-earth-lyrics-carol-lynn-pearson.html
To listen to the beautiful song:
https://datab.us/PfO6fYSLROs#My Turn on Earth: I Have a Plan
Jesus wants us to learn and grow by choosing, while Satan wants us to walk into the right direction without any trouble or questioning, neither thinking. As a leader in Jesus Christ’s church, which one would you choose ? The attitude of Jesus, to trust that one will learn through choosing and experiencing and wanting to grow ? Or the attitude of Satan, that no-one would have a difficulty, all watching into one direction and obey mindlessly, and silence anyone whom might stirr up some thinking and learning ?
The Church of Jesus Christ should be a safe place for choosing and learning, growing no matter where on the path one might be. Right now, with all these wrong decisions and excluding those who are learning and growing and silencing those who might dare to do the same, I believe Satan has found himself a nice place with actually the wrong name !
Next I believe the church can’t undo what has been created in Heaven. I believe I should have been a mormon this life, and I was excluded for following and sharing Jesus Christ’s love, while with a less stern attitude I could have stayed in the church … and I know … Jesus would have given me that moment of time. Because He saw the greater picture, the plan behind my action and knew there was no evil in it. Even though I was cut out of church, the church leaders couldn’t break my promise in Heaven, my attitude has allways been to follow Jesus, I allways including my teachings from the church as Jesus would have loved me to understand them: the iron rod is not from bendless steel, it bows a little sometimes when I didn’t walk in line, but would sway me back on the right track if it was bend too much ! I would never be too far away from my Big Brother Jesus. It was in my plan in heaven to follow Jesus here on earth, my decisions could hurt me even though I was helping someone else. I could have done that easily within the bounderies of Jesus Christ’s church, but those wanting us all with our nose into one direction, without choices and actions, without learning, hurting and learning to understand, cut me out !
Here you see in the church, not learning Christ’s lessons, leaders rather have a mob shouting the wrong thing and excluding beautiful people like John, Kelly and Carson, instead of learning, growing and understanding through experience and acting like Jesus Christ.
Leaders should learn and grow. Follow Jesus and the church will be a safe place for those choosing and learning. The place will be a rich place with all the experiences and differences and especially to love each other for whom each one is on the road back to our Heavenly Parents … it will be the place that Jesus wanted us to live in !
See all those things in the church that can be doubted as a blessing. It will be a wake up call for those following blind and want them to think and reconsider and make up their mind. It will teach them to choose what is really important, that the book is historically true ? Or the lessons in it to love one another and help each other through ? More important for a book to be historically true is to learn that material things don’t matter, but rather your spiritual point of view: Do you love like Jesus does ? Do you care like Him ? Do you see your brother and sister for what they are worth, or do you only see the sin ? Jesus wants us to understand how important each one of us is, not let them go, loose or get lost. Learn to see how precious each one is, is the thing Jesus wants us to learn the most ! In Heaven we have to live together, that is what we are practising here on earth. We can only live there together when we know each others worth ! Cherish each other as Jesus would do !
No one can undo what was created in Heaven, neither churchleaders. They can take away our membership, but not our attitude and commitment. A membership is solely a vow taken, but our commitment to our Heavenly Parents is no outer thing, it is a thing of the heart that can’t be stealed or broken. And this, that lives in our heart, will guide us and direct us, we are never alone, Jesus is allways on our side ! Because this commitment, a vow taken in Heaven, can’t be undone here on earth !
Peace,
Adrie de Jong
The Netherlands
When I was on my mission a family from my home ward went “inactive.” The family of the bishop was telling people that they’d been asked to perform some calling but had refused. They made it sound like the classic “family gone astray,” a real cautionary tale.
When I got home from my mission and was experiencing my own doubts I reached out to the family. Turns out they had an experience very similar to Carson’s. They had legitimate concerns about the history of the church, and were getting no where with the local leadership.
My point is the “public” nature of John and Carson’s stories is absolutely essential. I don’t think the smear campaigns are necessarily mean spirited, but they are real and they change the way the average member sees you or thinks about you.
I think while there is leader roulette and short straws, I see a big difference between expressing doubt and expressing disbelief. One assumes we have the monopoly on truth, the other recognizes truth is difficult to corner. One leaves room for further light and knowledge the other claims to know the conclusion. Strangely I discuss the same problems and issues and yet no one has asked me to be silent. John I consider both you and Carson friends but want readers to know some see a difference
“I see a big difference between expressing doubt and expressing disbelief. One assumes we have the monopoly on truth, the other recognizes truth is difficult to corner. One leaves room for further light and knowledge the other claims to know the conclusion.”
Doubt may precede disbelief. However, expressing disbelief doesn’t assume one has a monopoly on truth. Expressing disbelief about something only means the person has determined one thing not to be true, but it doesn’t mean they are asserting they know what is true.
It didn’t take much effort for me to conclude mormonism is not true – just a few seconds of someone beginning to tell me about mormonism was enough. But, some people continue to look for more reasons why mormonism is obviously false. A person can come up with hundreds of reasons why mormonism is false.
Recognizing that truth is hard to corner doesn’t mean you’re stuck forever thinking “well, maybe the sun does orbit the earth” or “maybe this time the hot stove won’t burn my hand.” You’ll be stuck in a morass if you can’t move beyond something obviously false. And, sadly, many do get stuck in the morass of mormonism. Good news here – not Carson and his family.
Wise words spoken, Jay !
It triggered the following insight from me:
I believe truth shouldn’t be told, but truth will be recognised:
Truth being told is some kind of force, forcing truth upon you, some kind of brainwashing. (Like in The Plan Satan would do.)
Truth being recognised comes from an inner process, experience and finding value and meaning in it. (Like in The Plan Jesus promotes.)
Truth is considered a personal thing. While about truth is said that it is true for all people, because truth is truth and all that is no truth is false.
I think truth can only be truth when it is recognised. And truth is acknowledged and confirmed when by and after recognising it’s been hold on to, followed and build upon.
I haven’t been on a mission, but worked a lot with them after schooltime. The missionaries taught me that we were looking for like-minded people, because they will recognise the truth.
If truth shouldn’t come from the outside and being forced upon, than it should come from the insight and being recognised. It can’t be a process from top to down, it must be a growing insight from down to top. Now we know that people are no stern statues with ‘once an idea, allways that same idea’, but have a progressive mind, developping from insight to insight. And sometimes you have to get away from basic insights to learn to see it from another point of view and get a whole new meaning about the idea what you thought was true. This process takes time. That is why it is insane to cut people out from the church for having other opinions. In fact seeing things from different point of views is an enrichment for all people from the community. Because different views will be recognised and build upon and trigger more insights which will strengthen the faith and commitment of the people from the community. I believe Jesus wanted Him to have such a church. Of course it could trigger doubt and struggle and uncertainty, but doubt is just whirled up ground where a new seed can grow and that could feed the mind of others positively. Now by all these excommunications, trying to force a certain idea as truth upon the community, by cutting out new insights and growth, the church becomes a stern place with solid ground where new seeds can grow. It creates a place of brainwashed, emptyheaded people. This is what Top to Down does.
I became a Mormon-member because I recognised the truth. The First Vision, Joseph Smith’s enthousiasm to build those things he believed. His eagerness to serve and create something good and I thank everyone from the past who gave him money or other support to have come so far as he did: building a church, building temples and building cities. His views and visions have enriched this world, because he brought a slightly different Christianity on earth and so brought new ideas that could trigger new views and so on.
For some reasons some have developped themselves and found themselves some truths that they will recognise in the mormon church. While others look at it and see nothing that hits something inside. That’s oke ! Each will find their own like-minded people. For instance: when I was excommunicated I went searching for what the church had not given me: My Heavenly Mother and I have found Her. And I have found like-minded people ! Their truth is as important to me as the truth I found in mormonism.
I don’t look for material things being signs of truth in the mormon church, like The Book of Mormon or Bible or other things. I look for mental development, right attitudes and how I should develop my behaviour to do the right thing. This development must come from inside and can’t be forced upon from above/the Top. Through insight and understanding a right attitude comes from the heart, intention and commitment, and this way this insight is a truth to live upon or after. Not solely as a rule, but a Joy to experience. The Joy gives energy and the results of right behaviour gives more joy and so more energy. And this thingy is very contagious and could flourish a whole community.
The problem of the mormon church is that they left the beautiful Christianity Joseph Smith wanted to establish on earth, but rather followed the stern rules and selfishness from patriarchal ideas. We see all prophets go astray this way in selfish attitudes in Polygamy, or wanting material evidence for the Book of Mormon, or wanting to keep women imprisoned in false ideas about how she has to live and behave, not for the glory of God, but just to be a slave for the glory of man. That’s why those who recognise the truth of Jesus Christ are cut out of the church, so patriarchal ideas won’t get into danger.
I assume you might have recognised this falsehood and considered it not the right place for you. Than you wonder why people keep finding faults in the church and hold on to that action. There is an unwritten truth called Common Sense or Healthy Mind, it is Cause and Consequence/Effect. Patriarchy is full of damaging lies. The more one is connected to loved ones in the church, the more they will warn those who suffer in the church. Next I believe we all have something to do on earth. Life is meant to be in balance. So if hurtfull attitudes rule the church, there will be people warning those suffering because of these hurtfull attitudes. And maybe the people won’t get it right away, but a plant may be seeded for the future and insight might come at the right time. I believe their will always be people trying to save their loved ones. It’s up to the Top to learn and see these false attitude and be the ones to warn, but since the top uses these false attitudes to brainwash the people, they play a game with the health of the people of the community. Those who are warning are needed because the top does not do their job right.
So, some have a task to warn, others don’t, it’s all how it lives in your heart that you need to express that way or not. I guess I am somewhere in the middle: I am screaming at the leaders to change their damaging behaviour and stop hurting the followers from the church. Why ? First because I have some precious dear friends in the church ánd right beside first: I want Jesus back on His chair on top of His church and the leaders to stop following patriarchy, but start behaving Christlike ! Why do I think I have to do that ? Because I am already excommunicated I have nothing to loose ! As we see with John, Kelly and Carson: all get excommunicated because of stirring up questions. I know my dear friends can’t speak out ! Maybe they even won’t speak out or neither want me to speak out this way, but nevertheless: I will speak out, because I can do it without danger ! I will be their voice even at this moment they don’t think I am doing the right thing, but this is my truth in my heart and that is why I speak out ! I recognise truth in the church and instead of people living up to that truth I see people getting narrowminded and led away from this truth. A huge part has to do with the leaders following patriarchy instead of Jesus Christ. They need a wake up call and I am gratefull John Dehlin offers me a place on Mormon Stories where I can scream ! I do not hate the church or hate the leaders, but I hate to see them following a path that is dangerous and damaging and it is the love in my heart to ask them to get on the right track and follow Jesus !
Wow, Jay, you triggered a lot, thank you for doing so ! I hope you have found a place where the truth in your heart jumps up with joy and I hope you found like minded people to follow and build up your truth. Actually I would like to know where you have found it right now ! Take care and cherish the love that is in your heart, I hope it will bring you good things !
Peace,
Adrie de Jong
The Netherlands
Carson, I’ve listened to many of John’s pod-casts. You are by far the most articulate guest I’ve heard so far.
Kerry, I am left to conclude only one thing…you are my mom posting under the pseudonym of Kerry. :-)
No I’m not your Mom. Like you I’m a dentist. I practice in Las Vegas.
That was probably true for about 5 days. Then Marisa was interviewed :)
Great episode! I really admire both John and Carson for trying to be the catalyst for a positive change, even though it is at their own expense. Thank you guys for standing against injustice.
It may appear to be an expense but there is an immediate uplift of 10% of your net/gross income and the weeding out of phoney relationships and friends. You can now explore the world of possibilities and live the life you choose. Where you saw only black or white you ca now see in color. You are of Platos’s cave. God Blesses !!!
Thanks for your story. Is it bad that I wish all non believing mormons would resign so that next conference their numbers would be the true number hahaha! “We now have “5 million members” because it’s totally not 12 million like they say.
Anyways, I am a RM girl, married in the temple with 3 kids. Been doubting for years, doubted my whole life really… Just wanted people to be proud of me so I lived the way I thought would make them proud.
I finally told my family I don’t believe a year ago. My mom has been awful to me. Other family members are okay but always bring up the church and its soooo annoying.
My spouse loves me no matter what which had been helpful (I think it helps with all the sexy undies I get to wear now) 😉
But I just love and thrive off of websites like this and stories like yours. Thank you soooo much for sharing!
Yesterday, an article in the Salt Lake Tribune cited a mormon leader indicating fewer people are leaving now than had in years past (doing better with retention).
Regardless, you are probably correct about 5 million active mormon members. However, most religions don’t differentiate between active or inactive when discussing membership numbers.
Dallas Jolley’s recent discourse on faith (received via email; not posted here yet) does not mention the preponderance of Priesthood blessings that have no discernible effect, or the preponderance of prayers of the faithful that go unanswered. If you had a computer that worked as reliably as faith and prayer, you would give up and throw it into a recycling dumpster. His claim that God will not provide scriptures that can be proven authentic … to force believers to exercise faith … is a lame, disingenuous whitewash of the clear, obvious and simple fact that the Book of Mormon is bad fiction, and the Book of Abraham is a bald-faced hoax (just like the Kinderhook plates that displayed JS’s true colors to the world). It makes sense to believe in things which are unseen which are TRUE. How much sense does it make to have faith in things which are unseen because they are known BS? The Calderwoods figured out that faith in BS is a bad investment and have moved on. Dallas will continue investing, and one day reach the same conclusion as the Calderwoods.
Thanks for this brave, honest, informative, and gripping interview.
It has been a long time since the long runs at Alta. Coincidentally, We are now both Seattle transplants. Thanks for sharing your faith narrative. It is good to know that you are still looking out for others. I always admired your empathy. I went through a very similar faith experience/struggle through my education and religious studies. I came out on the other side, my doubts and questions led to stronger faith in the Gospel, but I can see where your questions lead you.
You’re still a person I’d love to cross paths with again. I wish you only the best.
Carson, good luck on your journey.
I left the church two years ago, and life has never been better. I served as Elders President four different times, bishopric and stake presidency. At 63 years of age I’d had enough.
The interesting thing to me is that members believe the lies the church tells, yet no one questions Joseph’s involvement in polygamy as a lie. There is a bookstore in Independence called Restoration Bookstore. They have available a two volume set of books called Joseph Smith fought Polygamy. There are two sides to the story, and these books point out clear indications that Joseph never practiced or taught polygamy, plural marriage or spiritual wifery. He also did not start eternal marriage as taught in Utah.
If you take what Utah teaches about Joseph he becomes a fallen prophet because he does opposite what he taught.
Good luck. I have family in Maple Valley that are tbm, hope they are treating you well.
God bless you and your family.
Well done though good and faithful servants as the saying goes! I wished I had the fortitude to have stayed in the beehive as I came to know the errors and lies of the church. I might have been able to influence others but maybe not. I thankful for people like you who stay and try to be influential and maintain your cultural heritage of Mormonism. You help shape and pioneer the path for others. i further appreciate your story. Thanks for going through this so others can see how things really are!
Thank you for being brave, I am yet to be this brave to stand for truth. Just know their guns are filled with blanks. In the end they don’t have any power.
I do understand your questions because I have had my own. I was married in the temple to my love as well. Had our children blessed to us and I believed this is for time and eternity. My husband passed away while myself and children were small. While I had my own issues with God for taking a loving father, I turn to church for guidance but was inform I needed to divorce my husband in the temple so I could find a mate. This I was explained the only way I would be loved again and a must. I was threaten to be excommunicated as well but family stepped in to stop this non since. I still believe I am married for time an eternity and one day we will be together again, but really do I need to be forced to divorce the man I love and my children’s father in order to attend church? I felt not. Now my children do believe in God and know there father is always with them but we do not go to church because of the way we were treated. I believe in most of the church’s beliefs but have my own questions as to who the leader really is? Most of my family members do attend faithfully but I do not force my thoughts on them for I feel we all need to make choices by our own personally beliefs and reasons.
i don’t understand, if you don’t believe then just leave. No need to be vocal. We as members are not held prisoner and all know we have the choice to leave. This is a tough gig to live and believe and satan definitely gets to those that are wise and wealthy. Women are equal! I know what I have as a woman in the church is golden and that no man can do what I can. We are sacred and have our place just like heavenly mother.
Carson,
I support you and your wife. You do what you believe and “Never Doubt your Doubts”, keep studying and learning the truth and supporting the groups that want the truth and want equality in the Church.
God Bless and Happiness,
Jon Marshall
Logan, Utah
I just wanted to say thanks to both of you for sharing your stories. I wish you both well in your future endeavors