Introducing Kelceymarie Warner and Trigger Warnings

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, Dr. John Dehlin. It is July 10, 2021 and today we are in store. You are in store for, I think, a really important special interview. Today we have with us Kelsey Marie Warner. Hi, Kelsey.

Carah Burrell [00:00:21] Hi.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:00:21] Thank you for having me.

John Dehlin [00:00:22] Oh, it's my pleasure. And a lot of you will know who Kelsey Marie Warner is. She is a mental health. She is in a master's degree program studying mental health but she's very well known for a TikTok channel she has with over 500000 TikTok followers where she tick tocks about mental health and specifically about self harm.

John Dehlin [00:00:47] So this is a particularly poignant and sensitive topic for me. Just this week I had a friend who passed away and let's just say that mental health and distress tolerance and coping mechanisms were all part of this friend's experience.

John Dehlin [00:01:07] It was super sad and hard and you know what it really focused my attention upon is just what I think I've been feeling for a long time, which is this life is super hard. And sometimes this life, you have anxiety, sometimes you have depression, sometimes you have distress.

John Dehlin [00:01:27] And we are not taught how to cope in healthy ways with distress and with sadness and with tension and with pain. And there are less healthy ways of coping and there are more healthy ways with coping of coping. And it's really important to understand healthy coping, mental health, but also stopping short of people, let's just say, ending their lives by suicide. There are other ways of self harm that are really common and these are sort of issues that are very sensitive. These are issues that impact all of us. They've impacted me and my life personally with people that I love and as a mental health professional myself, I have had to work with clients in the past who self harm.

John Dehlin [00:02:23] And it is something that is very emotional and very painful and it's also something that is very complex and intricate. But it's also something where there are treatments, there are solutions and, but they're not always intuitive. And so today is going to be about two main things. It's going to be about Kelsey's, Kelsey Marie's Mormon story and that's going to be part one. And it's going to be a, you know, multi hour epic Mormon stories podcast interview where we talk about, you know, parents, you know, familial mental health issues. We're going to talk about sexual shaming in the teen years. We're going to talk about misogyny, we're going to talk about homophobia.

John Dehlin [00:03:08] Self harm, eating disorders, like all sorts of issues that come up with many Mormon teens and, or adults and sometimes particularly with young women. But it's also men and it may even be a misunderstanding that sometimes these issues face, know, are dealt with by women more than men. But anyway, it's going to be an epic Mormon story. We're going to talk about faith stuff, marriage, patriarchy. We'll eventually talk about divorce and faith crisis stuff and, and then just kind of how Kelsey's life has progressed. That's going to be part one and then part two. We're going to do like let's just say a one hour focused interview about self harm. It's going to be sort of what

Kelceymarie Warner [00:03:58] is it,

John Dehlin [00:04:01] how is it misunderstood? What are the kind of wrong ways to think about it or less helpful ways to think about it and, or treat it. And then we're going to talk about the more healthy ways to cope with it and deal with it. Both from the person who is feeling the desire to self harm or is self harming and also to the person, family member, friends that are supporting someone who's self harming. And it's just going to be kind of a one hour, one stop shop for understanding that. And then of course we want to refer you to Kelsey Marie's TikTok channel where she has hundreds of videos about this and 500,000 followers. And she also sells workbooks to help people learn about and manage self harm. So this is all super important stuff. And Kelsey Marie, what did I leave out or what would you like to correct?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:04:56] No, that was, that was really good. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:58] Did we cover the main things?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:05:00] Yeah, I think so. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:05:02] All right, so I guess I will say this. I think it's people often appreciate when we provide a trigger warning at the beginning of kind of a discussion. And you know what that basically means is we will be talking about mental health, mental health. We will be talking about probably suicidality and we're going to be talking about self harm. And they will probably.

John Dehlin [00:05:27] It might be graphic. It probably will be graphic in the sense of to whatever extent Kelsey is comfortable and, or thinks it's wise to talk in detail about ways people might self harm and ways to treat it. And so that's for those who don't want to learn anything about that, this is your warning to turn this off. Now for those who might be inclined to be overwhelmed or get flooded or in any way be triggered, just an invitation to practice self care, to use the pause button liberally to take breaks, to fast forward or skip over things, but I guess all the appropriate warnings. Anything you would add to that, Kelsey?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:06:11] Um, no, I agree. My viewers generally appreciate trigger warnings for eating disorders self harm, and we'll be discussing those things, so I think that's good.

John Dehlin [00:06:20] Okay.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:06:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:22] One quick thing. We are also just super grateful to have with us in studio back Carah Burrell. Hey, Carah.

Carah Burrell [00:06:29] Hey, John. Thanks for having me. This. I roped Kelsey into doing this. I've respected the hell out of Kelsey for a While now on TikTok, and her live streams are always. Soothing is a good word. You feel really calm when you're in there. And she is just such a beautiful force in the world for helping people regulate and just find the most successful techniques of dealing with the harsh realities of life. And I think she's a beautiful soul, and I'm so glad that she drove down from Idaho to come do this with us. And then the only other thing that I wanted to say is this is obviously a very important topic, but I, I, I made the push to get Kelsey in here today because it's, it's awkward, it's hard to talk about some of these things.

Carah Burrell [00:07:17] People like to sweep things under the rug. And I want to make sure that our listeners, whether it's adults listening to this and you might think, hey, you know, this is not a topic that I'll never need to discuss with anyone. You probably will. You probably know somebody. Um, and just like John was saying earlier, like, mental health problems, they don't discriminate against men, women, rich, poor.

Carah Burrell [00:07:40] And I hope that people will learn something and, like, take a lot of good lessons and a lot of good insights from this interview. So I'm just happy that we can do this.

John Dehlin [00:07:48] All right. Yeah. And it's just great to have you, Carah, and we're grateful for all that you do to help make this podcast just higher quality. And along with our TikTok channel that you've been leading Mormon Stories podcast, TikTok channel has over 50,000 viewers now, just in a month or, you know, whatever care has been leading that. So check us out on TikTok. And just thanks to everyone who supports the Open Stories foundation that makes Carah supporting this work all possible. So it's great to have you.

Carah Burrell [00:08:19] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:08:20] All right. And also, they can't see me, but I just want to. We're live streaming this to Kelsey's TikTok channel, and I hope they can hear me. I just want to also welcome all of the livestream viewers and listeners as well. It's fun to be able to Live stream.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:08:36] Yeah, it's pretty cool.

Growing Up and Converting to Mormonism

John Dehlin [00:08:38] All right, Kelsey Marie, well, where do. Where does your Mormon story begin?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:08:42] Okay, so technically I was born into the church. My mom had me when she was about 19 years old, and during that time she met a man who wasn't my father. Well, actually. Sorry, backtracking. They actually knew each other before, but he was Mormon and they dated, I want to say, after I was born, I think. And he wanted to get married in the temple, but my mom had to get baptized first.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:09:12] And so around the time that I was born, I want to say my mom got baptized around that time. I'm not quite sure. And then I was blessed into the church. I had like, baby blessing and everything. And that's pretty much all I know those early days. All I know is at some point she went inactive. And I didn't really hear anything about the church again until I was 12 years old when I was living in Germany.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:09:36] And I thought it was kind of odd, honestly, just because my friend wasn't allowed to drink caffeine and her family didn't drink coffee or beer like my family did. And they weren't allowed to say certain words like stupid or suck. They said, like, a lot of strict rules that our family didn't, which kind of set them apart for me.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:09:58] And then during my second stepdad's deployment to Iraq, my mom had an affair and he came back on emergency rr, which is kind of like leave for the military. And 12 year old, you know, what I'm seeing happening just from my own perception of what I thought was going on, what I think happened is they were trying to save the marriage, and so they decided they were going to go back to church and try to state the marriage. And then I was baptized within, like, I want to say, like, two months thereafter. So I guess it really begins for me when I was 12 in Germany.

John Dehlin [00:10:41] Yeah.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:10:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:42] Okay. That's kind of where your Mormon story

Kelceymarie Warner [00:10:44] begins, I would say. So my earliest memory.

John Dehlin [00:10:46] So as far as mental health goes, is there any aspect to your mental health journey that's. That you want to mention? Kind of before the age of 12?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:10:55] I've almost. I feel like I've always struggled with depression, you know, like, even as a early child, just being sad a lot, idealizing suicide. Like, my earliest memories of, like, wanting to, like, die was like nine. And I remember just thinking, like, you know, what if the car crashed right now and I could just start all over, you know?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:11:15] But my first, like, trigger warning my viewers, sorry, guys, I know you're watching but my first like a plan was when I was like 11 or 12 years old and I was standing in the kitchen and I say, you know, I just don't want to do this anymore. I'm over it, I'm just going to do it. And I was holding the knife ready to do it and my little sister walked in. She. We're six of the parts, so she'd have been like five or six at the time. And she walked in, she's like, what are you doing? You know. And so I put it back.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:11:44] So I couldn't put her through whatever I'd planned to do at 12, you know. And so earliest, I guess suicide plan was when I was 12, like actually where I was going to do something. And before that it was just like depression and probably just like, I want to say, I wouldn't say like self loathing but just like, oh, I'm stupid, oh I'm fat. Because these are things I was hurt, hurt at home, you know. So yeah, there was definitely that before the LDS Church as well. Just because of home life.

John Dehlin [00:12:17] Yeah, yeah. And it's. Have you thought about. Because sometimes this stuff is just biological mental health, depression, anxiety.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:12:25] Right.

John Dehlin [00:12:25] And then sometimes it's both biological and it's situational.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:12:30] Right.

John Dehlin [00:12:30] If you had a. Have you had any thought about whether it's either or both or.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:12:35] I can see it being both. On the one hand, genetically, I know that my mother struggles with some things. I'm told my grandmother does. And I'm also told my great grandmother didn't. Like when I go to family reunions, my mom said the family, they talk about my great grandmother being crazy Betty or something, you know, so there's definitely that potential genetic component. But I also wonder if it's a continuation of abuse cycles as well because we learn behaviors, so I can see it being both, honestly.

John Dehlin [00:13:02] So maybe from your mom, right? Some of, some of her behaviors.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:13:05] Oh yeah, definitely.

Carah Burrell [00:13:06] Yeah.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:13:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:08] Did you see self harm or suicidality or was it just depression or anxiety?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:13:13] No, I, I did see those things too. I didn't recognize it's what it was the child. But looking back, you know, my mom would get angry and she'd punch the floo repeatedly until like she would like bruise her knuckles. Maybe they were broken, I don't know, just like big and swollen, you know. So I would see her self harm in that way. I don't think she realized that's what she was doing was self harming. I think she was just like looking for an outlet. And then with depression, my mom would be in bed for long periods of time just because she was depressed. And eating disorders were also very prevalent in the home. Are you familiar with the term thigh gap? Okay, so if my mom didn't have a thigh gap, she thought she was fat, you know, and so she'd talk about it, you know, I'd say tell

John Dehlin [00:13:55] the audience what that is.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:13:56] Okay. So a thigh gap is like very popular in the early 2000s and 90s where you're very thin or thin enough anyways that your legs don't touch when your feet are together. So it's kind of like a Barbie doll, I guess. You know, some people have it naturally, which is fine. It's great. And some people go to.

John Dehlin [00:14:11] It's a body type, right?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:14:12] It's a body type, yeah. It's normal, it's fine. It's only an issue when you restrict yourself. Right. My mom would stop eating and then she'd be skinny enough to have what she wanted, you know, and so it's kind of put into my mind from an early age that I had to have a certain body type or look a certain way just because of what I saw at home, you know, so.

John Dehlin [00:14:34] Yeah, okay. Yeah.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:14:37] And.

John Dehlin [00:14:37] And it's usually a combination of biology and what you learn right home. So that all seems kind of normal. Okay. So starting at 12, your family's trying to, like, make one last ditch effort to like stay strong and to. So that. That's often when really, I mean, that's when religion can either add value or, you know, becomes compelling, let's just say, to people. So tell us about that.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:15:03] Okay, so I don't remember like a major conversation. I just remember, like one day the missionaries were there and they were saying that we would be a family forever, which really appealed to me just because I always wanted a really great family. And so I was told to have a family forever and that I would always have friends. And even though our lives are constantly changing because we're in military, that there would be some kind of stability through that. Because wherever you go, they say the church is the same, the people are the same. Right. You're always going to find community, always going to find a church, ward organization, et cetera.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:15:40] And so within a short period of time, you know, we had discussions with the missionaries and we were going to church every Sunday and mutual, et cetera. And I really just kind of threw myself into it simply, simply because I wanted that stability.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:15:57] And. Yeah. So from there we were in the church, my whole family, probably, I want to say four or Five months. I went to EFY and stuff and simple trips, and it was just this incredible experience because my home life just felt so dark and I was so sad. But when I go to church, people were happy to see me. You know, they, like, greeted me, the hug my name, you know, I was told that when I would go to the temple, it would just be this most amazing thing where it was God's home and you can feel his love,

John Dehlin [00:16:28] you know, and to do baptisms for the dead.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:16:30] Baptism for the dead and confirmations, you know. And I know a lot of people said they didn't like the experience. I actually liked the temple experience just because it was beautiful and people were kind, you know, I never had a bad experience in the temple. And so I love that, you know, And I swore that one day I go to BYU or BYUI and I go to the temple, like, every single day. And I did, by the way. I did.

John Dehlin [00:16:54] Wow.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:16:54] Yeah, I did. And I just really threw myself into it just because I wanted so badly to believe that I had a dad out there who loved me unconditionally. I am not going to cry on my livestream again. And so, sorry.

John Dehlin [00:17:15] Tissue's right below.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:17:16] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:17:16] Okay.

Carah Burrell [00:17:17] Yeah. Take all the time you need. Really, it's whatever you want this to be. Okay.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:17:23] I was also raised not to cry. So it's always embarrassing to cry or told things, you know, like, I'll give you a reason to cry. That kind of stuff.

Carah Burrell [00:17:31] I know.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:17:32] So I was like Molly Mormon, as we called it from basically day one. I read, like, the Book of Mormon like, a million times and threw myself into seminary studies and did all young women, went to every single service project.

Young Women's Program and Early Church Life

Carah Burrell [00:17:47] Is this starting in Germany as well?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:17:49] I'm sorry, that would be flashboard in high school. So Germany, we moved within four months because we got orders to North Carolina.

Carah Burrell [00:17:58] Okay, so when you were in your most Mormon stage, you were back in the United States.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:18:02] Yes.

Carah Burrell [00:18:03] Okay.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:18:03] Yeah. So sorry, guys. I jump around too much.

John Dehlin [00:18:09] No, no, no, this is great. Natural.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:18:10] Okay. So within four months, four or five months probably, we moved back to the U.S. we got orders toward Carolina. And at this point, my family had kind of become less active. I want to say they actually stopped going. We kind of stopped going after moves and the U.S. actually, I'm just not remembering this, but by happenstance, I happened to meet a kid in the neighborhood who had a friend who was lds, and then my mom and that kid's mom became friends. And then that was my segue back into church, even though I wasn't going every Sunday anymore. I was still doing personal progress at home. Sorry. I just remember that.

Carah Burrell [00:18:48] But. And then can you explain for anyone who doesn't know what personal progress means, I think you're just trying to say, like, you were invested.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:18:55] I was really invested, yeah. Personal progress is. It's kind of. It's a little book, basically, and it has attributes that a girl is working towards to be the best version of herself. So there's like faith, divine nature, individual worth, choice, accountability, integrity, good works, and virtue.

John Dehlin [00:19:13] Nice.

Carah Burrell [00:19:13] She's a woman guy.

John Dehlin [00:19:16] You just got your Mormon card.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:19:17] There you go. And so for each of those little, almost like chapters, you have, like, little activities that you do. So you read the section in the Book of Mormon and the Bible, and then you have activities that reinforce that. Maybe you make a quilt, you learn genealogy, make commitments, that kind of thing. And so I was still doing all those things when we moved back to the US and met these other Mormons. So I kind of went to church on my own simply because I needed that civility. I rode with friends and stuff.

John Dehlin [00:19:51] Your mom didn't want to go or wasn't into it or.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:19:54] I don't think she wanted to go anymore. This was during one of her, I would probably say, depressive episodes. She would just, like, not go outside, not talk to people. I don't know if she was afraid. Like it was agoraphobia or something. She just couldn't. Just couldn't answer phone calls or anything, you know. And so I went with friends, and that was great simply because also I was homeschooled, by the way. So my social group was the church. And so I love going just so I could have a social aspect.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:20:24] And it was nice to hear on educated people because everyone. Our ward was very intelligent. They had their own companies or they had advanced degrees. They talked about this super cool place called Salt Lake City, you know, the other side of the world to me, you know, and universities. And it was just really great to have this amazing thing I could look forward to. Once I was 18, I was free and I was moving to Salt Lake City and going to BYU Provo or something. I don't even know.

John Dehlin [00:20:50] Gives you something to hope for.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:20:52] Yeah, something to hope for. It gave me hope. So I know that a lot of people have anger towards the church, but for. I feel like in a lot of ways, it kind of got me through some hard places just because it was the alternative to what I had, you

John Dehlin [00:21:04] know, so, yeah, so you start. You start getting into church and personal progress. How about like, young women's or youth? You know, youth, young men's combined activities. Did you start Mutual? I don't know what they called it when you were.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:21:22] Yeah, we called it mutual. I went every time that I could because I couldn't drive, so I, like, begged for rides and my friends or my parents or something. And then I did seminary as well. We did early morning seminary or afternoon seminary, depending on where we live in the country.

John Dehlin [00:21:42] Tell our listeners what that is.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:21:43] Okay, so seminary is kind of like Sunday school. So basically, if it's early morning, you get up for me at like 5 in the morning. And then you would drive to your chapel, your church, and you go into a classroom with all these other kids. And if it's a huge ward or church group, then you have. It was divided by, like, age groups, like freshmen and sophomores or juniors and seniors. And for an hour, you would study whatever the curriculum was. So it could have been Book of Mormon this year, New Testament, Old Testament, D and C, you know, and we would just go through, like, basically a couple chapters a day with, like, a lesson prompt.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:22:22] And you do that every morning before school or depending on where I live in the US if it was a smaller group called the Branch, you know, like, we had, like, 10 members. We go like once a week, an hour before Mutual. So I just look at you. I keep looking over here.

Carah Burrell [00:22:35] Sorry.

John Dehlin [00:22:36] That's fine.

Carah Burrell [00:22:36] That's fine.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:22:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:38] And. And what? So I. You started to kind of really feel strong things when you were talking about the teaching of a loving heavenly Father that loves you no matter what, that's looking out for you, that cares about you. As you're going to seminary, getting immersed in the church, hearing about the doctrine, the history, the theology, do you remember what the teach, what teachings kind of gave you the most comfort or meaning or that you got most excited about?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:23:06] Okay, off the top of my head, looking back, it's kind of cultish. But the young woman's personal progress motto, we said it every Sunday. It's like, we are daughters, our Heavenly Father. So from there, the moment I walk into the room, I am a daughter of Heavenly Father, you know?

John Dehlin [00:23:22] And that meant what to you at the time?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:23:24] It meant that even though I never knew my biological father, even though I'd had three stepdads and other father figures that my mom didn't marry, you know, regardless of all of that, there was still something out there. There was a father that loved me unconditionally. And so it gives you.

John Dehlin [00:23:45] How did that make you feel?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:23:47] It Gave me comfort, you know, it made me feel like everything would be okay. It didn't matter what happened at home that day. It didn't matter that someone threw something or broke something. It was someone right now loves me and is thinking me right now.

John Dehlin [00:23:59] You know, that's valuable, right?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:24:02] It was that got me through so much, just believing that there was something out there that loved me. And I think that's why I tried so hard in the church, because I wanted to get approval from this Father in heaven, you know, make this person happy, this person that loves me. And someday I'd see him and it would make sense, like, oh, dad, you

John Dehlin [00:24:23] know, so what about Jesus Christ?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:24:27] You know, I shouldn't think much about Christ while I was lds, which is kind of funny because the church used Christ, love our saints. I thought of. I guess it's my. They say he was like our older brother. You know, it's kind of. We were taught, you know, our oldest brother who loved us unconditionally. I never fully understood why he had to sacrifice himself for me. I didn't understand why I was that bad to begin with, you know, like why he had to die for my sins. Because I don't think I should die for my sins. Like so that's kind of weird for me. But I did appreciate that I still have an older brother out there that loved me, that helped somehow in the creation of the world and myself.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:25:03] So it sounds kind of weird looking back to talk about all the things that I believed, but it gave me comfort to know that there was a family out there because I actually had a mother in heaven too. We just never really talked about her, you know, and so that was really comforting. It gave me a lot of peace at night.

John Dehlin [00:25:21] You know, this is, this is probably going to sound a tiny bit strange, but I just realized that in technically speaking, the story of Jesus is a story of self harm because he. He's an all powerful.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:25:34] Right.

John Dehlin [00:25:35] God being. He allows himself to be harmed. And I don't know why I thought of that.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:25:40] No, that makes sense. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:42] Any, any other teachings that meant a lot to you or do you want to talk about like dating at all or kind of just high school and

Kelceymarie Warner [00:25:50] I can talk about anything.

John Dehlin [00:25:51] Yeah. And the. When the mental health stuff started really emerging and then what that looked like and how you were, how you coped with it.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:26:00] Okay. So I think a lot of my mental health aspect came from the issues at home. But there's also some stuff that came from the church simply because it kind of reinforced that I wasn't good enough. The message I was getting at home is also reinforced at church because we always have areas we can improve on. And if you feel good about yourself, then your pride is sin or your sin is your pride. I mean, you know what I'm trying to say. Pride is your sin, so it's the thing you're doing wrong. So I kind of, like, beat myself up a lot just because I didn't feel good enough, and I felt like it was good to not feel good enough or something that makes any sense. Because if I felt too good, then I was being proud, you know? Like, Kelsey, you're so great. Like, oh, I'm okay. You know, I'm proud, you know?

John Dehlin [00:26:47] So if you're messing up, you feel bad for messing up. If you're doing great, you feel bad because you're prideful.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:26:52] Exactly. Yeah. It was just this loop of. I was like a toxic cycle. I don't know even know how to really explain it. I guess that was probably perfect. And then from there, we went to the temple, and the temple also kind of reinforced that there was so much more we had to learn. There was so much that we needed to improve on, because if we were going to be God someday or something, you know, we had to be perfect. And I wasn't, you know, like, no one is anyways, you know, But I felt like I had to be.

John Dehlin [00:27:24] So kind of perfectionism starts to creep in.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:27:27] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:27:27] And through most of this, it sounds like your family wasn't active or. And it was mostly solely you kind of leading the pack.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:27:35] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:27:35] Did you feel like you had an extra responsibility then as well? That, like, you know, your ward's looking at you, people are looking at you as an example and that you. Did you have ideas in your head as well, that they're like, it's up to me to get my family active for the eternal perspective.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:27:49] Yeah. Because if I didn't fix this, then we weren't gonna be a family forever. I wasn't gonna have my family, you know?

John Dehlin [00:27:54] And did that add to the culture?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:27:57] It did, because even though they were messed up, they were my family, you know? And so I love them. I don't talk to a lot of them, but I love them, you know?

Carah Burrell [00:28:06] And where are you, like, placed in your family?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:28:07] Like, you're the oldest, too, of five children.

John Dehlin [00:28:11] Oh, wow. A blended family.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:28:15] No, we have one child that's adopted, so I'm actually half siblings with all my siblings, except the adopted kid.

John Dehlin [00:28:22] Whoa.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:28:22] Yeah. Because I was kind of the college experiment. My mom calls me jokingly. Angie is the next in line. Angie is from the first marriage, and then Lydia was adopted. She just happened to. My mom's friend just kind of drops her off randomly at our house and would leave her for years. And so Lydia just kind of, like, was integrated into our family from a young age. Whoa. Yeah. And then when Lydia was 18, she was officially adopted by us. And then the youngest two are Athena and Corbin, and they are from my mom's.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:28:52] I'm sorry. Second marriage. And they're the only ones who are actually, like, truly, like, fully biological. So, yeah, I felt a lot of pressure just to make sure that we all were a family forever. And on top of that, I also felt like I had extra responsibilities to lead my family spiritually, like, especially the younger kids, because we're told from a very young age that we have to be examples, and it's our responsibility just to make sure they're not lost sheep, you know, they don't get, you know, led astray. And with everything else going at home, I was trying to shield them. At home. There was a TikTok sound you've probably seen where it's like, I'm covering my ears like a kid, and the sound muffles. I don't know if you've seen that gin or not. Okay.

Carah Burrell [00:29:36] But that was just when I thought, I've seen everything.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:29:38] Okay, I'll text it to you. That was totally me. You know, I would, like, cover their ears when there was, like, fighting or something, or get them ready for bed because mom was too sad. Get them ready for church or feed them. We were also homeschooled, so I did some of the homeschooling through my mom's depressive periods, you know.

John Dehlin [00:29:55] So you were kind of back up Mom a little bit.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:29:57] Yeah. In fact, my youngest sister tells me that she feels like I raised her, you know, she lives with me now, actually, just because.

John Dehlin [00:30:05] Keep going.

Carah Burrell [00:30:06] Oh.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:30:06] Just because my. My mom wasn't always present. I know she loved us. I know. I know she loved us.

John Dehlin [00:30:12] Mental health.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:30:13] It's mental health, you know, and looking. The more I learn, the more I'm like, wow, she had her own stuff to unpack, you know, and I wish she'd had better support, you know, but back to my role. I did get the kids ready for church a lot and read scriptures with them in our bedrooms and initiated prayers. Talked about this super cool place called the temple they can go to when they're 12. They're really good. You know, it's gonna be so Great. You just gotta go there. You're gonna love it. You know, it's gonna be so peaceful. And basically I tried to be their Mormon mom, I guess, you know, and I try to lead by example, throw myself even more into it so that I could look up to somebody in that aspect as well.

John Dehlin [00:30:58] So maybe that's a lot to. The pressure and the stress in addition to the perfectionism.

Carah Burrell [00:31:06] Yeah, that's a lot. I am the youngest, so I just kind of rode through life. And that's kind of that. That's sad to hear that there are so many people, whether Mormon or not, whether functional and dysfunctional family or not, that oldest children, they have a lot on top of themselves that it's going to. It's going to come down crashing pretty soon. Yeah, that sounds really difficult to deal with for a long time, so. And then around 12 years old is when you said you started having the most like suicidality. Is that what you would describe it as? And is there a specific.

Mental Health Struggles Beginning in Early Adolescence

Kelceymarie Warner [00:31:39] Like what.

Carah Burrell [00:31:40] What was it that boiled over from everything that we've mentioned so far? Was there. Could you even articulate that?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:31:45] My mom went through a major depressive stage when we were in Germany. And I think it's because my second stepdad was going to training a lot, so he'd be gone for a couple months for training or he would.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:31:57] His deployments. I want to. They've probably like a year long, which is a very long time. So much so that my youngest sister Athena, who was five or six at the time, actually thought that he had died because he just wasn't there one day. You know, he probably said bye, but when you're little, time's different you. And so he was gone so much that she thought that he had died. And I think that was just hard for my mom to have her husband gone. And then it was also kind of isolating because we lived off base, off post, off military base. And so we were in a foreign country.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:32:25] I spoke English, my family did, but we were in Germany, so it's a language barrier. And then my mom tells me that she had a hard time making friends with the other army wives. So with all that going on, she kind of went to a depressive state where she was like glued to this computer like the Sims game. I don't know if you guys have heard of that. Sims. Sims, yeah. It can be a lot of fun. But she kind of threw herself in and made like our entire family on the Sims. And instead of engaging with us, she did the Sims family or my dad was there, and Kelsey was getting amazing grades, you know, or that kind of thing.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:32:58] And so during that time period, I was really taking care of my younger siblings, you know, making sure they got out of bed, the house was clean and fed and homeschooling to the extent that I could as a 12 year old. I didn't know a whole lot at 12, you know, just making sure they, like, knew the ABCs or something. And I think it was just the pressure of being a parentified child at 12. And I think that I had probably my first break there was, because it kind of all hit me because 12 is so young. Like, oh, my gosh. And the other thing was I saw a newspaper article around this time.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:33:37] Britney Spears had her big break that everyone saw where she shaved her head, you know, and she said that she quote from a source, she wanted to start over as a baby. Right. I was like, wait, that happens. I could start my whole body fall everything, like, over. You know, I think that was part of it too, was I heard it somewhere on the media that life started over. And so I think it was the break from the family issues and then learning that the pain would be gone and something new would start. Hope that makes sense. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:34:06] Yeah. That's kind of something that in my interview that I did back in April, I think that my mom grew up in a. Also kind of just dysfunctional family. And at 12 years old, my mom also joined the Mormon church. Oh, yeah? Yeah. So, like. And John said to me in my interview something that I will always take with me that I'm gonna repeat now. So I just wanted to clarify that. That I don't think I'm smart. I stole this from John in my movie where he said that people in that situation, they become cult fodder. And people have their issues with calling Mormonism a cult, but we'll do it anyway.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:34:35] Oh, yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:34:37] That people in those situations, they become fodder for a cult. And that people, cult or not, like, you can still learn something, you can still grow, and you can still take the positive benefits and aspects of that out of it. But then still there's reasons it's also called a cult because there's also the downsides and stuff. So it's this hard thing to piece and. What's the word? Yeah, like piece apart once you become an adult. Like, where did I take the things that were helpful that I needed? And what am I gonna have to unlearn now? What are the traumas or are the different aspects?

John Dehlin [00:35:06] Totally, totally. Because you're saying Two things. That's brilliant, Carah. And you're saying two things. You're saying, my life was in shambles. I had multiple fathers. The idea of a loving heavenly father, a social group, you know, a system, a structure, something to look forward to. You're telling us how beneficial that was to you. And that's true. And if you don't, and again, if you don't, like, we know that cult is an offensive term, so if you're believing Mormon, swap that out for high demand religion. Our point, Carah's point, isn't to call names, it's just to sort of say whatever you want to call it. Call it the Church of Jesus Christ, Latter Day Saints.

John Dehlin [00:35:43] There's going to be good things and there's going to be bad things. And sometimes the more demanding a religion is, the more benefit you get from it and the more harm you get from it. And so in some ways it can keep you alive and sometimes it can kill you and sometimes it can do both. Keep you alive while it's killing you.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:36:00] Right.

John Dehlin [00:36:00] Is that fair to say?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:36:01] I can definitely see that for sure.

John Dehlin [00:36:03] And if anybody doesn't like the idea that somebody who's vulnerable becomes, as you say, fodder or.

Carah Burrell [00:36:09] That's what you said.

John Dehlin [00:36:09] But yeah, susceptible or golden. For the missionaries, it's just a fact. If anyone's gone on a mission, the people that are most likely to be interested in what the missionaries have to say are people whose lives are having a really hard time. Missionaries will call them prideful if they're not interested, but really what's going on is they're happy and they don't need anything. The people that are, quote, humble are. The people that are. Their lives are in trouble and they need help. There's actually nothing wrong with that per se. The only thing that's bad is if it becomes unhealthy.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:36:42] Right, right. I agree.

John Dehlin [00:36:44] Yeah. But you had, you had a lot to deal with in parallel. Benefit and harm simultaneously.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:36:50] Definitely.

John Dehlin [00:36:50] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:36:51] Yeah. And I'm glad that you mentioned early on about the things that, the lessons that you held onto that gave you hope and gave you purpose, because as somebody who. I didn't understand why anyone would keep talking about the church after they. Leave it, leave the church, leave it alone. Like, why do I or John or anyone keep talking about this kind of stuff? It's because I only saw the positive aspects because I was still in it and I only saw that, you know, I didn't have the thousand foot view to actually take a step back until I've left the church to look at those things.

Carah Burrell [00:37:19] And so part of my name is NuanceHoe because I want people to be able to have like a healthy, like I had perfectly good experiences in the church that I'm grateful for. If that's all I had, that's all I had. And that's kind of what it sounds like, like you're saying that, like, that's like, you know, God bless the missionaries that they were able to help you. Like where, where else would do you think you would have been if it wasn't for, for the church. Right.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:37:41] I don't even, I don't know. I mean, I think that I probably would have ended up a different person in a bad way. Not saying that X people aren't raised lds are bad or anything, but just that because of my situation, I would not have been as academically driven. And if it had been academically driven, I would never have gone to byui. And the people that I did married an RM and divorced in RM for other reasons and had three children. And I also never met my husband John. And he's a really incredible person and he was raised les and I kind of feel like he has all those great qualities that are encouraged by the church, you know, so there's definitely some good things we're taught as children. That helps. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:27] I'm a, I'm a big believer that the church does a lot of good and I'm not the one that wants to burn the church down or tell people not to join it. It's just complicated because it can do good and, and like we said, cause harm. And there's the, there's the question of is it actually true?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:38:42] Right.

John Dehlin [00:38:42] And is it what it claims to be?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:38:44] Right.

Carah Burrell [00:38:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:45] If the church is a net benefit in someone's life, like do the church.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:38:50] Right, Right.

Coping Mechanisms and Sexual Shame as a Teenager

John Dehlin [00:38:51] I'll quickly call attention to one issue and then we'll maybe dive into it. You talked about your mom playing sims, so that for me that, that sort of raises the issue of, of coping. Because we think about unhealthy coping as like drugs and alcohol and self harm.

Carah Burrell [00:39:07] Right.

John Dehlin [00:39:08] But the truth is there are lots of ways to self medicate. So. And the reason why it's important to start talking about this now and to build awareness overall is that we're not always as Mormons and maybe as humans, we're not always in tune with our own feelings.

John Dehlin [00:39:23] Sometimes we don't even know we're mad or sad or hurt or depressed. It's just how we're, how we are. But Then, but then whether it's conscious or unconscious, if we're feeling awful, then we cope. And you can cope with drugs or alcohol or self harm, or you can cope with video games, or you can cope with Netflix or mobile phones or TikTok. There's a lot. Eating, sleeping, there's a lot of ways to cope. And obviously there was stress in your home because your mom was self medicating in that instance through playing Sims, and then the burden fell to you and so that's going to amp up your stress and anxiety as well. Is that fair to say?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:40:08] Definitely. I agree. And I hadn't thought of it before as a coping skill. That actually kind of helps me looking back. Oh, that's what she was doing.

John Dehlin [00:40:16] And we don't even understand coping. So if you can't understand emotion, you can't understand coping.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:40:22] Right.

John Dehlin [00:40:23] So it's not something that we normally think about. You self medicate when you're constantly feeling distress and you don't know how to cope with it.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:40:31] Right.

John Dehlin [00:40:32] And honestly, Sims is a lot more healthy. There, there are a lot less healthy ways to cope than Sims.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:40:38] Right? Definitely.

John Dehlin [00:40:42] Okay, so let's talk about how you started experiencing distress throughout your teen years and then your forms of healthy or unhealthy coping. And we can get into and, and along the way, things that happened in or out of the Mormon context that were sources of trauma and distress for you.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:41:00] Okay, so I think with the focus being on high school with puberty, that's where you get more into like the sexual shame and lgbtq.

John Dehlin [00:41:09] It's also where you just get lots of feelings, right?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:41:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:12] Hormones.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:41:13] Absolutely. Had a lot of anger, you know, as a teenager, I look at, back at photographs, I'm just like, I don't even recognize you. I feel so bad for you, you know, and, but you're saying shame.

John Dehlin [00:41:24] So talk about that. How, how that.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:41:26] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:41:27] How that gets presented to you as a Mormon.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:41:29] Okay. So with sexual shame, we had a lot of lessons very early on, starting 12, about chastity and virtue.

John Dehlin [00:41:40] And what does that mean to a Mormon?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:41:44] You know, it's everything.

John Dehlin [00:41:46] Define chess.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:41:47] Okay. Those who don't know not having sex

John Dehlin [00:41:48] till you're married or sex or, or

Kelceymarie Warner [00:41:52] sexual relations, thinking of sex, you know, you couldn't porn, you couldn't imagine having sex with someone or being aroused was kind of a bad thing. Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [00:42:02] Can't touch each other.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:42:03] Can't touch each other.

John Dehlin [00:42:04] Or yourself.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:42:05] Right, or yourself. The masturbation, you know, basically, if it was sexual and you weren't married. It was a bad thing. That's like a huge no. And actually we had an activity. Hope I can tell this story. Totally random. When I was 16, we went to a state conference and our state president stood up and said, okay, I want all of you guys to stand up. Who here likes baseball? It's like, I love baseball, right? And so like in baseball we have a no strike zone, which is like you can't tax one out. Like, I guess it's like we're here like your shoulders to your knees, basically.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:42:33] And so we had no strike zones with our bodies, with dating. And so they made us stand up and repeat the phrase, I am a Mormon baseball player. It was like something, something touch from here to here. Basically, you don't let your partner grope you, right? Or do anything. And so it was no, no square. The no, no square. Yeah, it was just freaking force as groups and in private, you know, just how we could not do these things, could not think these things. And then I want to say it's the strength of youth, whatever that little definition book is, okay?

John Dehlin [00:43:05] Strength of youth pamphlet.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:43:06] Okay. And so it has a section where it's saying that even if you think it, then it's almost like doing the sin. So if I, embarrassed to say this, you know, think about having sex, my boyfriend's a teenager, you know, Then I basically had sex my boyfriend, even though I didn't, I was my own butt, you know, And I just had so much guilt over it just because I felt like something was wrong with me. When sexual thoughts are completely normal for humanity. Yeah, they're essential, you know, and can

John Dehlin [00:43:33] I just add one slate?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:43:34] Yeah, go for it.

John Dehlin [00:43:35] In Mormonism, the teaching is there's murder, which is the worst about the worst thing you can do. And then right under that is having sex.

Carah Burrell [00:43:44] Right.

John Dehlin [00:43:45] So when you add to the fact that sex is next to murder in evilness and that to have the thought is almost like having sex, you're basically pretty much always committing murder, right? I mean, I don't mean, I don't try and inject that in your experience.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:44:00] No, I, I agree. Just because it's felt so bad, you know, I just hated myself for being normal. Like what 16 year old doesn't think about a sex, honestly, you know, you

John Dehlin [00:44:08] didn't hate yourself for being normal, you hated yourself for being bad, right? Because in your mind you were bad. Am I wrong?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:44:13] No, you're right. It goes back to my desire to be perfect. Because I wasn't perfect. I was going to Social Kingdom, wasn't having that family, you know, And I also wasn't going to be good enough for my future return missionary, you know, worthy wasn't gonna be worthy enough. You know, he wouldn't want me. I had a boyfriend in high school who said that he would never date a girl who had sex before Marri. He was only going to marry a virgin. And I was like, what? First we're breaking up just on principle because of that, you know. And the other thing was like, if you go through the repentance process, you're clean in the eyes of God, so why would it matter? He's like, yeah, but I don't know. I'm like, you're an idiot. Okay.

Carah Burrell [00:44:47] You know?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:44:48] Yeah. And so sexual purity was really pushed. And the other. This kind of jumps forward a little bit, but because as young women, we are taught so strongly sexual purity, no sexual thoughts, nothing. It makes the wedding night a bit of a shocker because suddenly us all systems go. Anything's okay now, basically. And so it's really hard to get your mindset out of, oh, I can't think that, oh, I can't do that. To suddenly it being okay. You cannot just deprogram yourself from a lifetime of, let's not do this. You know, it does not happen overnight. And I've known so many LDS wives ex mo or still LDS talk about the wedding night being so scary just because they could not switch gears.

John Dehlin [00:45:33] You know, it's bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:45:36] Right.

John Dehlin [00:45:36] All of a sudden, wait, it's good, right? Doesn't work that way.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:45:38] You couldn't relax.

John Dehlin [00:45:39] Brain doesn't work that way.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:45:40] Exactly. You know, it's just years of conditioning. I almost want to call it brainwashing. Okay, you know, so I know a lot of girls still struggle with that just because 40 years old. Is it okay to talk about orgasms here? I don't know. They can't orgasm because they can't relax, you know, just for years.

John Dehlin [00:45:58] So, so as you're. As you're getting these messages about chastity, as the Mormons call it, and you're having these thoughts, how does that start as a teen? Start playing into your mental health to your. Is that. Did that lead to self harm? Did that lead to thoughts of harm? You know, to what extent. When did you start showing the real signs of distress, depression, anxiety, and even maybe self harm?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:46:30] Yes, I did. Fifteen was when the traditional version of self harm started, when I started cutting when I was 15. And.

John Dehlin [00:46:40] Okay, can you talk about that?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:46:41] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:46:42] So what? So we're going to talk about this in depth in the next little segment. But, but how does, how, how does self harm, how did self harm start for you? Okay, like talk us through, like emotionally or behaviorally where that came from for you.

Carah Burrell [00:46:59] Yeah, because I'm interested in that because I feel like so many people, they don't even know what they're doing. It's just an expression and they don't know. They don't even know what it's called, what it's about. And they, they.

John Dehlin [00:47:08] There's this perception that it's just a copycat thing. Oh, you want to, you want attention or you're just copying someone else or you hear from somebody.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:47:14] Right.

John Dehlin [00:47:15] But it's. I think there's instances in history of just people doing it just randomly because it's almost like a natural behavior for some people that just have too much distress.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:47:25] Right?

Carah Burrell [00:47:25] It is.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:47:25] And you talk about it later if you want. But there are, you know, instances in history where just like people there for, you know, religious reasons, they even see self harm in animals are in distress, you know, so. But for myself, I feel like I probably started earlier. I just didn't realize what I was doing because when I get stressed, I twist and it rubs raw, you know, or I'll scratch until it's raw or it bleeds, you know, but purposefully with intention to do it to myself. I was probably 15 years old and I started cutting and I don't know where I saw it or where I heard it, where the idea came from.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:47:59] It just kind of came in my head one day when I was 15. And what happened in my life was my second stepdad, this is what I'm told. I don't know how true it is, but my mom one day screamed my name and I ran downstairs and she basically says he had an affair while he was deployed and he was kicking us out of the house to move in his girlfriend and her child. That's what she said. I don't know how true that is, but that's what she says. And she had a mental breakdown. Just. We were, we were actually like. I want to say it was like Christmas or something.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:48:32] We were at a relative's house in Texas. I lived in North Carolina, but we had flown to Texas. This I want to say it was Christmas, I can't remember. And she mental breakdown and screaming her life's over. She's breakdown. And then she was gone. My great aunt took her to a mental health facility, which is good. Which is good. She needed it for sure. You Know, she was saying she's going to kill herself, you know, and she was gone. I don't know how long she was gone. I mean, cuz time's different when you're 15 or 14. I want to say it was weeks, but she's gone a long time.

John Dehlin [00:49:02] And just a tiny bit of tip, if you or someone you know is. Is. Has an intent to end their life, that's what you do. And a lot of people just don't know this. You either call 911 or you drive them to a hospital that has a behavioral health unit, right, where you commit them. And then they can receive psychiatric help, psychological help, stabilization to get them safe. And it's tough because it can be very expensive. But it's. It's really the only thing you can do right when somebody is, you know,

Kelceymarie Warner [00:49:36] in that place, you know, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:49:37] In danger.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:49:38] In danger, absolutely. It's totally worth it. I actually have friends who are very big on TikTok. One of them is Madeline Cameron. Maddie. And she works as a staff member at a psych ward. And her whole page is about that. You know, it's very good. But my mom. So she went to a mental health facility and she was gone for a couple weeks. And then when she came back, she met a man there who became my third stepdad. He's actually my favorite sub dad. He's an alcoholic, but I love him and

Carah Burrell [00:50:06] he's.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:50:07] Anyway, she came back and she talked about this guy who gave her fuzzy camo slippers and he just thought the world of him. My mom falls in love very quickly and it's always like, you know, head over heels.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:50:19] You know, her whole personality can change with it too. And so my family was concerned. Like, you know, you're not even divorced yet. You were in a mental hospital and you met this guy at the mental hospital. You know, he was there for either a stroke or alcoholism. I don't really know the true story, but he was there. And suddenly she was no longer with us at my great aunt's house. She was going off and with this guy and staying in his trailer and stuff. So it was a really big world.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:50:44] Paradigm shifting. I don't even know how to say it. It was a huge change because I went from having a stepdad for like 10 years who is currently deployed, being LDS and everything. And this time my mom's gone. Then suddenly she's back. Then she has a new boyfriend that she's now gone all the time with. We were homeschooled and there's a possibility of Us being put into a public school. But I've been raised my entire life. The public school is bad, very bad, because, you know, you can be led astray or be bullied or assaulted. Anything she said, you know, and it was just a lot.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:51:14] And on top of all that, they got in a really. My mom and my aunt got in a really big fight. And I ran upstairs while they were screaming each other, and I told them to shut up. And then I was like, oh, my God, what I say, you know, I can't talk to grown ups that way, right? And I ran downstairs and they both chased me. And my aunt grabbed me and she hugged me and she told me, everything's gonna be okay. We'll figure this out. My mom comes downstairs and she's like, let go of my kid, you know, Because I don't think she really knew what's going on.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:51:38] I think she was scared. I don't know. And my mom said, just because you didn't take care of your kids doesn't mean you can take my kids. And my aunt said that she was gonna call CPS and take us away from her mom forever.

Self-Harm Begins and Early Hospitalizations

John Dehlin [00:51:54] CPS is Child Protective Services.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:51:57] So the idea is that the kids are in a bad situation. Professionals come in, take the kids from a dangerous situation, put them in a safe place until the parents can be kind of like rehabilitated, taught to be better or a better situation. So she was gonna call CPS and remove us from my mom. My mom got mad, my mom slapped her, and my aunt let go of me and said she was calling the police. My mom grabbed us and she said, run, run, run. We ran to the truck with James, the guy from the mental hospital. My throats have done and threw us in the car.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:52:27] And he's like, what's going on? She's like, drive, drive, drive. And so we raced down the road. He had no idea what's going on. Just follow what she said. And then from there, we were living in his camper, like a fifth wheel trailer, you know, stepped on the sofa and she slept in his bed. And on top of all that, we moved into his other family's house. This all happened like a matter of like three or four weeks, you know, it was a huge amount of change for me. And it was just like I felt detached. Like I felt there was like a mental break there. It was probably the first time I remember dissociating, you know, they say with trauma.

John Dehlin [00:52:59] What does that mean?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:52:59] So dissociating? It's kind of. It's like a Coping skill, the body just people experience it as like almost like zoning out, but you can zone out for long periods or they feel like detached in their body, like they're floating above their body. They're not. They're not really present. Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [00:53:15] And why would. What would. How would that be adaptive? Why. Why would your body want to do that?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:53:20] Because the present was. Whatever was happening was just too much. It was just too much my brain, you know, And I was, remember, like sitting in the backseat of the car and then I was just like gone. Not like dead or anything, just like, like I wasn't present.

John Dehlin [00:53:32] Yeah.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:53:32] You know, and I just detached. And within the next couple weeks, that's when I started cutting.

John Dehlin [00:53:42] We'll talk about that more. But what's the basic reason someone would. Would do that?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:53:48] Self harm is a coping skill. It's a bad coping skill, but it's a coping skill. And they.

John Dehlin [00:53:52] Well, when you say bad, what do you mean?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:53:54] It's unhealthy for your body.

John Dehlin [00:53:55] Okay.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:53:55] Yeah. You can't be hurting yourself and be in a good place emotionally, physically, you know. And so people do it for lots of reasons. Sometimes they want to ground themselves. So the dissociating, maybe, and they need ground means to be totally present.

John Dehlin [00:54:10] Bring you back.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:54:11] Bring you back, you know, focus in this moment and pain will do that, you know, or the endorphin rush after will do that for you. Some people do it because they don't like themselves and they want to punish themselves, you know, and it's just a way to get through the moment and it makes you feel better, even though people think, you know, I know it shouldn't, but it does. So for me, I did it initially because I was numb and I wanted to see if I could still feel. I. I think I probably went through long periods of dissociating. Maybe I was still walking and talking, but I wasn't like, connected, you know, and pain brought you back, you know, and that was genuinely why?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:54:53] Not because I wanted to feel the pain, but simply because I need to be back in this moment. Because there were three or four younger siblings at any given time that needed me. My mom wasn't gonna be that person, so who was? It was me, you know, so.

John Dehlin [00:55:06] Yeah, so you started. And then what's that like? Once when you start, it's probably confusing because in your mind you're probably on the one hand getting relief, but you're also aware that you're harming yourself. And you're probably also thinking, well, this is. This Might be bad or this is hurting me, but it feels good.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:55:28] Right.

John Dehlin [00:55:29] And then you probably, you might even, I imagine, feel guilt or shame about it and then say, oh, I don't want to do that anymore. And then you have to fight the urges to do it again. I'm just making all this up.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:55:40] No, you're absolutely right. I think I was already feeling so much of the time, it was just like one more thing we're going to toss onto the sino haystack on the camel's back. You know, I, I hid it for as long as I could, you know, just because I didn't want my younger siblings to copy it. So I felt guilty about that because I feel like I had to be a good, good example, but I was secretly failing, you know, And I think I did a lot of those things, just like trying to hide my own perfections or present a positive LDS version of myself that wasn't truly who I was.

John Dehlin [00:56:12] Like, what do you mean by hide it?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:56:14] Hide it, mask it. I guess like cover it up. Cover it up. So physically, obviously I covered it up. And then anything else that was wrong with me, I tried.

John Dehlin [00:56:24] Obviously you covered it up.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:56:26] Oh, I would cover up the marks

John Dehlin [00:56:28] because like a wristband.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:56:30] Oh, sorry. With my clothing. So I would wear. Even though it was Texas and hot, I would wear like sweatshirts and wear them long, long sleeves.

Carah Burrell [00:56:37] It was always the one way with your wrist, Is that what you're saying?

Kelceymarie Warner [00:56:39] Yeah, it actually didn't occur to me to self harm anywhere else. I don't even know why. I think it's just because it's right there. And so in that moment, it's like, oh, you know, goes there.

John Dehlin [00:56:49] But, and, and also people who don't know anything about this are going to think, oh, wrist. Oh, that's not always. It's. And your life. No, there's a, like, there's, it's totally different.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:57:00] Right.

John Dehlin [00:57:01] You know, and again, trigger warning, you know, an attempt in your life is very different than, you know, distress. Coping with self harm on your wrist.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:57:11] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:57:11] Very different things.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:57:12] Definitely. In fact, a lot of people, I would argue, who do self harm don't actually want to die. They just want to get through the moment, you know?

John Dehlin [00:57:18] Yeah.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:57:19] And it's not always the risk for me. I think it was just that it was there. I mean, it's right here in front of me and it looks breakable. Like it's probably the most delicate part of my entire body, I think, you know, and, but people do every. No arms, legs, if you have it you can do.

John Dehlin [00:57:31] Right.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:57:31] It. It. You know.

John Dehlin [00:57:33] Yeah.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:57:33] So yeah, ask me a question. I'm sorry, I'm getting.

John Dehlin [00:57:39] Okay, so that starts and you're hiding it. So talk about how that continues. And, or I, I know you've mentioned things like being attracted to other women. I don't know if you had any sexual experimentation which would have been totally normal.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:57:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:56] Natural if you had. But talk about sort of anything that caused the. Compounded the guilt and shame or stress, anything related to Mormonism that helped or wasn't helpful. And then how your, let's just call it unhealthy coping progress. And I'm just going to ask you if you agree with this, there's a degree to which unhealthy coping is still healthy if you are looking at it from the standpoint of it's keeping you alive. Okay, so it might be. And this is just my training, you're more of an expert than me, probably you're the PhD.

John Dehlin [00:58:34] But there's specialties and I would say self harm is probably its own specialty and it's not my specialty. But what I did learn is that when people self harm oftentimes it's keeping them alive because it's sort of like for some saying I'm in such an awful place that I. This will, will help help me cope because if I don't have that, then I won't want to be here anymore.

Carah Burrell [00:59:00] Right.

John Dehlin [00:59:00] And so, and that, that's why when you said it was bad, I wasn't correcting you. But unhealthy is how I was kind of trained to look at it.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:59:10] Right.

John Dehlin [00:59:11] Because it was actually potentially keeping you alive.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:59:13] Right.

John Dehlin [00:59:13] And I don't want to say that's your experience, but that's just what I.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:59:16] No, I can see that because it does release endorphins. You know, it gets you through the moment. So what you do.

John Dehlin [00:59:22] Right.

Kelceymarie Warner [00:59:22] It gets you through, which is the goal. You know, so what I try to do, like my tick tock. If you've watched any of the videos, you know that some of them are kind of extreme. You know, people, they squeeze ice or they have like red food dye and they rub the ice with red food dye. And a lot of people see that and think, oh my gosh, you're encouraging this behavior. You're making it an aesthetic or something. You know, I'm like, I'm not. But if you were to that point that it's to die, to actually use something to hurt yourself or to pretend to make it look like you're doing it, you know, like what it really is. Luster of two evils, you know? Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:53] And that's all legitimate. Like, I was trained in a PhD program. That is legitimate skills that you teach people.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:00:01] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:00:02] To replace the less healthy coping with more healthy coping.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:00:06] Right.

John Dehlin [01:00:07] And it's always better to have healthier forms and less healthy.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:00:10] Right.

John Dehlin [01:00:11] But we don't know about any of this. Like, I like, you know, in my family, I experienced this with people close to me. And when you're a parent, you're just, like, losing your mind because it just seems so my kid and. Or my family member. And like, this. It's so triggering emotionally and flooding that we are ignorant about it, or we avoid it or don't talk about it, or we're just sad about it, but we don't know how to deal with it.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:00:37] It.

John Dehlin [01:00:37] So it's important that we talk about it. Okay, so talk about how your mental health, Mormonism, life experiences all kind of progressed.

Bisexuality, Identity, and the Church

Kelceymarie Warner [01:00:45] Okay, so back into high school, lgbtq. I have always been equally attracted to men and women. My very first crush was on a girl, you know, and that was hard for me, simply because you look at a guy, or at least maybe we look at a guy, I guess, and think, oh, he's cute. And. But I look at a girl and think, oh, wow, she's cute. You know, And I hated myself for that, just because it was so bad. You know, they say that homosexuality is on the same level as murder. I counted myself lucky that I was Mormons. Mormons, Yeah.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:01:22] I was, like, taught that in Sunday school. And I counted myself lucky that I wasn't homosexual, Like a lesbian. I was, like, bisexual or something, you know, half awful. I'm only half awful, you know, So I. I hated myself just because it was one more thing wrong with me. And it was like every day, you know, you see someone attractive and you think, oh, they're attractive. You know, I'd have a female best friend, and then I would, you know, develop a crush because you spend enough time with someone you're attracted to and you have a good relationship with, you develop romantic feelings for them, you know, and that was so hard, too, because it was like, how do I have friends with you if I'm gonna like you and go to hell?

Carah Burrell [01:02:00] You know?

Kelceymarie Warner [01:02:00] Like, so confusing.

John Dehlin [01:02:03] More stress.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:02:03] It was more stress. You know, One more thing.

John Dehlin [01:02:07] You were, like, thinking, how do I like girls today?

Carah Burrell [01:02:10] Right.

John Dehlin [01:02:10] Attraction isn't a choice, you know, it's just not a choice.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:02:14] It's not a choice. Absolutely. Because childhood crushes on the playground Girls, like no one talks to your kids about LGBT 90s kids. We didn't discuss like LGBTQ at 6 or 7.

Carah Burrell [01:02:23] You know, you don't even know what it is, right?

Kelceymarie Warner [01:02:25] It's not even a thing. Lgbtq, I don't even know. And, but it was there, you know, and it was just one more thing. And so I stopped intentionally self harming, probably around 17 or 18.

John Dehlin [01:02:37] How'd you stop

Kelceymarie Warner [01:02:40] diving into religion? I kind of poured myself into religion. So I'll say I went from cutting back to what I did before that, which was more like scratchings. It's still self harm, but there's way less blood, less unhealthy, Less unhealthy. You know, I could hide it more. I'm like, oh, I had a sunburn. It was a blow sort of pops. I'm really fair skinned, so I get delicious all the time.

John Dehlin [01:03:01] That's what you would tell people?

Kelceymarie Warner [01:03:02] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:03] That was kind of the way that

Kelceymarie Warner [01:03:05] was like, oh, I got sunburned, you know, I scratched myself working on the farm or something, you know, and so I kind of hit it that way. And then from there it was probably just throwing myself into religion because by then I was 18. And what does that mean for Mormon girls? You know, you go to school, find your return missionary, and you get married. And then years been leading up to this moment. Finally life was getting good, you know, and so I went to BYUI and I had a really great experience just because I've been looking for my entire life. I went to devotional, which is every Tuesday.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:03:41] I want to say it was 2pm I think at BYUI they ring the bells on campus and people walk down, like a horde of people walk down to the, the heart building or something, this huge auditorium, and we sit down and listen to some kind of speaker, talk about gospel stuff, you know. And there's a temple just, you know, a couple blocks from my apartment and I go to the temple every day and I did baptism for the dead and confirmations. I threw myself into genealogy because I was gonna make sure that every single member of my family got to experience this amazing thing, you know.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:04:11] And so I just did hours of genealogy work just to get all these temple names baptized, you know, I actually sent my ex husband to the temple with like 50 initiatories one day. I didn't know how long it took and just really threw myself into the gospel because finally this was my moment, I found a return missionary. I was going to be happy, you know.

Carah Burrell [01:04:33] So let's back up a second. So what did, so you're saying most of your teenagers sounds like you were in North Carolina, is that right?

Kelceymarie Warner [01:04:40] Or was that after Texas?

Carah Burrell [01:04:41] So then you moved to Texas?

Kelceymarie Warner [01:04:43] 15. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:04:43] Okay, so you're in Texas and I'm assuming that you're surrounded by, you know, other established and awesome Mormons in your ward there. And like, where did the idea first occur to you that you wanted to even go to BYU and that that was going to be a pursuit of yours to like go to John likes to call it Oz, where like, you know, when you're just, you're not around a lot of Mormons growing up and you finally think like, this is my chance to like, you know, really get indoctrinated or like really, really be around other like minded people. Meet the rm, do the thing. So how, how, for how long was that like a pursuit of yours to want to go to BYU?

Kelceymarie Warner [01:05:20] Probably from like 14 through 18. Initially I wanted to BYU Provo just because all my friends, like Oby Provo is better because of the football team and they have the higher like SAT act requirement. Yeah. So it's like the smart school or something, you know. And then when I was 17, my stake in Houston had what part of Houston? So I'm from Livingston, Texas. I call that home. It's about two hours north of Houston. There's like a big lake.

John Dehlin [01:05:48] Lake Livingston. Yeah, I used to water ski there.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:05:50] Are you serious?

John Dehlin [01:05:50] Yeah. I grew up in Circle Houston.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:05:52] What?

John Dehlin [01:05:52] I grew up in Katy.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:05:53] I. I had no idea.

John Dehlin [01:05:54] Yeah, I'm from Katy. I went to Katy High School.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:05:56] That is crazy. I've been to Katy like a million times. Okay.

Carah Burrell [01:06:00] Yeah.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:06:00] So Lake Livingston, we were part of the Kingwood Stake. It's a Texas Houston east mission for missionaries.

John Dehlin [01:06:05] We, we competed against you guys in Scripture Chase Championship.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:06:08] Did you really?

John Dehlin [01:06:09] Multi Stake scri. Chase Championships. I was the, the regional Scripture Chase champion my freshman year.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:06:16] Oh my gosh.

John Dehlin [01:06:18] It was the Houston Texas State at the time anyway.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:06:20] That's amazing. I didn't know we had those.

John Dehlin [01:06:22] And my mom lived in Huntsville, Texas, which was north.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:06:25] Yeah, I've been there a lot too.

John Dehlin [01:06:26] That's. That's where I would go water skiing at.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:06:31] Very cool. Yeah. So Livingston, Texas. No, you're fine.

John Dehlin [01:06:36] Shout out to my Houston homies out there.

Carah Burrell [01:06:37] Oh yeah.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:06:39] Oh my gosh. So Houston, Livingston. Livingston is had enough active members probably to be called the branch. When I was there, it was very small. But we recall the ward and I'm told by ward members that what they did was I contacted all the Ex or the Inactives and said, hi, we're all still friends. Can you just come to church so many days so we can get our building? And that's what I'm told happens. I don't know if it's true, but supposedly that's what happened. And. But my award was really more of a branch. It was very small.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:07:09] And while I wasn't at stake, though. I'm sorry, the BYU's representatives came. So. BYU Hawaii, huh? Exactly. Some. I wasn't allowed to go. I think it's like a parent event. And like. So, like Provost spoke. Byui Hawaii. And then the LDS business college spoke.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:07:29] My mom didn't like any of them except for byui. She said that Provo was too liberal. I guess they had a gay pride march the year I graduated high school. I don't know. It was too liberal.

John Dehlin [01:07:37] Terrible.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:07:37] Yeah. Terrible thing. Hawaii was too far away because you had to cross the ocean to get to me. And then the LDS was a college, was basically a community college, which wasn't good enough for her child. Right. And so BYUI was the most spiritual and that's where I was going. We actually kind of had a fight about it because I didn't actually want to go to. Around 18, I decided I didn't want to go to BYU's. Actually, I wanted to go to a Texas school because all my LDS Texas friends are going to Texas school.

John Dehlin [01:08:04] A M or ut?

Kelceymarie Warner [01:08:04] Yeah, A M or ut or the local. Even local community college. Any of those have been fine for me as long as I was with my LDS friends that I'd made the last two or three years. So when.

John Dehlin [01:08:12] What was the local community? It doesn't matter.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:08:16] Lone Star, probably. I don't know. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:08:17] You know, they all have institute buildings anyway, right? So you can still stay pretty active. I could have.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:08:21] Yeah. We had a nice little institute and like a singles award and stuff. I'd have been fine. Religious label, whatever.

John Dehlin [01:08:26] So Houston was. Same Houston State would have been.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:08:28] Oh, yeah. See, that would have been too. Yeah. But it wasn't ever legal enough. She was going to send me to BYUI because she wasn't going to have me get pregnant and marry some redneck in East Texas. So she's going to send me to byui, where I met a redneck from East Texas.

John Dehlin [01:08:43] That's awesome.

Carah Burrell [01:08:45] John has a good joke he likes to call Rexburg.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:08:49] It's a snow globe. Bubble or burger.

John Dehlin [01:08:52] Oh, oh, the. I don't want to say that.

Carah Burrell [01:08:56] Okay, I won't say it. Never mind. Later.

John Dehlin [01:08:58] Okay.

Carah Burrell [01:09:00] Never mind.

John Dehlin [01:09:02] So, no, that's okay, though. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:09:04] I was like, say it, John. It's funny. Just. It's the most Mormony Mormon place you could. I mean, I, I, I grew up in Provo, and I, I always assumed Provo was the most Mormony Mormon place. North Provo. But I hear Rexburg is like, a game changer in terms of, like, insulation, you know, to just being as. Was that your experience there? Did you like it?

John Dehlin [01:09:25] I say it's, it's, it's Mormonism's version of Saudi Arabia.

Carah Burrell [01:09:29] And that's all I wanted you to say.

John Dehlin [01:09:30] I know what I mean by that. I just wanted to say it in a way that didn't sound disrespectful.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:09:34] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:09:35] If you associate Saudi Arabia as being one of the more fundamentalist countries within Islam. I just, I didn't want to say it in a disrespectful way. But you're right. I do call Rexburg sort of Mormonism's version of not in a disrespectful way, just in an orthodoxy way.

Carah Burrell [01:09:52] Right.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:09:53] It is, it is very much different from the rest of the world. So we had to fight. My mom said basically, if I was going to Byui or she was kicking me out and I was 18, I'm like, well, crap, where am I gonna go? I'm a license. Because she wouldn't give me a license. My family has very severe control issues. So a license was a control thing, you know, and so, like, well, I'm 18 years old. I'm a license, and I'm also homeschooled. I don't have a high school diploma. Where am I gonna go? You know, so went to be why and which was okay, because, you know, for all these years, I did want byu. You know, byu. I worked. And so it's only when I was allowed to apply. To apply. Got in, of course, everyone does, and moved there that winter. And Rexburg was an interesting.

Eating Disorders and Body Image in the Church

John Dehlin [01:10:32] Can I ask two questions before we jump to byui? Sorry. Was eating disorders a part of your, your childhood at all?

Kelceymarie Warner [01:10:39] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:40] We should probably talk about that. And did you have any worthiness interactions with your bishops prior to going to byui? I'm sorry to jump back in, but I think probably maybe important.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:10:52] Irrelevant. Definitely. Eating disorders were definitely encouraged in my home, so. Encouraged. Absolutely.

Carah Burrell [01:11:00] The thigh gap, right? That's the model.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:11:04] It was the standard, you know, and I was never skinny enough for that. Just, just my body type, the way I proportion weight, you know, I never had that. And My mom always talked about my sisters and I. So they say that Kelsey's a smart one. Angie is the pretty one. My sister is that Gremi. We also have different dads. My dad, you know, is Caucasian, curly hair, blue eyes. And Angie's dad was, like, Haitian, I want to say. And so he's quite tall, and Angie's quite tall. She's probably your height, actually.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:11:34] She's gorgeous. You know, brown hair, brown eyes and tan. And she. I thought. I thought she could eat whatever she wanted. She actually had an eating disorder for my mom. I didn't know that until I grew up. But Angie was the gold standard because Angie was quite tall and she was quite lean, and she had this ideal body type my mom glorified. She said that, you know, Angie was like a gazelle or something elegant, you know? And she would say things about me that I still make me cry.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:12:03] Just from a very young age. Like, okay, I can tell a story. Cause I've told it, like, a million times over lives. When I was 7 years, 6 or 7 years old, my mom decided that I was fat. And I didn't really know what fat was, just because when you're little, you don't really think about your body weight, you know? And she accused me of sneaking food. And I don't know if I did. I was a little kid. I don't know if kids think about sneaking. I don't know. And so she told me to take off all my clothes and to go look at myself in the mirror naked to see what's wrong with my body.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:12:30] And so, like. But it wasn't that calm. It was like a big yelling thing, you know, you're disgusting. Take off your clothes, go to the mirror, look yourself naked. You know, it's like I walk into the mirror in the adjoining room. Like, my stepdad is, like, right there video gaming. And I start to cry. I'm like, I don't take off my clothes in front of this person, you know, I don't want to look at myself and think, something's wrong with me. So I just kind of stood there. My compromise was keeping my clothes on and looking in the mirror and, like, looking at my body and thinking everything that was wrong with me.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:12:56] But the thing is, when you're six, you don't really know what is wrong. You just know that something's wrong because you don't know about body weight, you know? And so body checking was what we call when we look ourselves in the mirror to see, make sure we're still okay. We still look good, you know, was taught from so young. I was probably six. Honestly, I don't even know if Athena was born. I might have been five. I don't even know. And so started very young, and then she always had us on diets and talked to me about my diet. You know, Atkins was huge when we were kids, and so she had everybody on Atkins diets.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:13:33] And puberty was really hard for me because your body changes, you know, and your metabolism changes. And while Angie grew up and taller, you know, I stopped at, I don't know, 5, 4, 5, 5. And I gained a little bit of weight. You know, I was probably at 140, 150, too much for my body type. But, you know, there's an adjustment anyways, insecurities here. And it was a huge deal because my mom was quite thin, because she was restricting, because she. She used fasting in the LDS Church as a way to cover up her eating disorder. So fasting, if you guys don't know, is where you stop eating and drinking or something like that to show God how badly you want something.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:14:11] People fast in the Bible and just to get what you want. Basically, guy, I want to rain. I'm gonna fast for so many days. You know, my mom would say that she was fasting for her relationship to get better with my third stepdad or my second stepdad, when in reality, it was just part of her eating disorder. You know, maybe she believed in her head for a little while that it was just fasting, but it just fed into it because she stopped eating, and she would lose 20 pounds in, like a month. You know, she'd become very thin, and when she was skinny again, she was happy, you know.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:14:44] And so we're always encouraged to restrict, whether for religious purposes or weight loss. My sister Angie, she tells a story. I wasn't there for this, but she tells me that one day she walked my mom, and she said, mom, I need bigger jeans. Because she initially had been size 0 jeans, which is quite thin. You probably know what that is.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:15:05] And she needed size twos, also still thin. And my mom said, just stop eating and you'll go back to a zero. I'm not begging you. Bigger pants, you know. And so while I thought Angie was always, you know, just genetics, she was actually an eating disorder, you know. And so that was basically it. You know, if I gained weight, I was. It was part of the reason something goes wrong with me. So, like, you get berated by your parents in the house with, like, domestic violence. You know, all these things are wrong. With you, you know, on top of that, you're also fat right now.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:15:39] You know, no one's gonna like you, cuz you're fat right now. And so I always had in my mind that I was never skinny enough because I never met this ideal that was taught from us for a young age.

Carah Burrell [01:15:53] And.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:15:59] I probably started restricting eating when I was probably 15 or 16. I used church as an excuse. My mom did fasting and fasting. You know, I want you guys to quit arguing when I go to the temple and fasting.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:16:11] And it would become like a competition, you know, like, I didn't eat for 24 hours. Can I go 36? Can I go 72? You know, my mom would like, oh, I haven't eaten seven days. And she really hadn't, you know. And so I'm like, oh, could I do seven days? You know? And so I kind of fed off that as well. I'm like, oh, well, if mom can do it, you know. And then when I couldn't, you know, then there was more wrong with me because now I was gluttonous for the basic need to eat, you know. And so.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:16:48] I was never anorexic or underweight. I was never strong enough to get that far, you know. But even though I eat healthy now, I still struggle with that mentality. If I gain five pounds, then I'm a terrible person. You know, my pants are stuck because I was Christmas. You know, it really gets to me. And the turning point in my relationship for my mom was when she started mentioning my daughter's weight. My daughter is six. And yeah, she's a kid. There's nothing wrong with the way she looks. And I was like, whoa, you know, no.

Carah Burrell [01:17:25] Yeah, boundaries.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:17:26] But this is. No, just like, you need to take. My ex husband is overweight. Very much so. And she would talk to me about how Evie had bad. Evie, my oldest, had bad genetics because I struggle with my weight, you know, and my ex husband doesn't even bother. He just, you know, is overweight. So Evie's gonna have just a hard time. And so it just. It never stopped. And I could see how it was becoming a generational abuse cycle, you know, So I talk about eating disorders just because I feel like they don't get enough conversation. And people think if you're not underweight, you can't have an eating disorder, but you can.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:18:01] You know, people struggle with bulimia and our normal weights or overweights, you know, and restrictive eating diet culture. People go on fad diets, you know, like, oh, I'm just cutting out gluten. They're actually part of the eating disorder. You know, it could be.

John Dehlin [01:18:15] So sometimes veganism or vegetarianism.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:18:18] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:18:18] I think it's a term orthorexia, but it's basically just diet obsession that is conceptualized and discussed as just healthy eating.

Carah Burrell [01:18:29] Right.

John Dehlin [01:18:29] But in reality, its function can sometimes be disordered eating.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:18:34] Absolutely. My mom would go on trends while I was in high school, so whatever was the trendy new thing. So when I was in elementary school, middle school, it was the Atkins diet. And then around high school, veganism became a thing, at least for our part of the world. And my mom decided she was vegan or she was vegetarian. She also went through a phase where she was doing a low fodmap diet, which is for, like, gastrointestinal issues. You can only eat certain foods or low fodmaps. Sorry. And all she would eat was, like, boiled chicken and blueberries. And this is what we saw every day. My mom starving herself, you know, and. But it was okay because she was fasting, you know, so the church kind of went into that, too. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:19:17] Well, thank you for sharing that. That's important stuff, and that's hard stuff, but thank you. So was worthiness interviews a part of your experience prior to BYU or not with your bishop?

Worthiness Interviews and Mormon Identity

Kelceymarie Warner [01:19:32] We definitely had worthiness interviews.

John Dehlin [01:19:35] Was it a problem or distressful to you or anything like that?

Kelceymarie Warner [01:19:38] It always made me uncomfortable because in everyday life, I would never just, like, go up to you and talk to you about my sex life. That would be considered inappropriate, you know? And so it was kind of weird to go into a room with an older man that I may or may not have a relationship with, because depending on your ward size, you may not know your bishop very well, you know, and you just. You sit across from them in a room in a chair, and they ask about your dating life or your sex life and what that entails. And depending on your bishop, it could vary.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:20:08] Like, I had some bishops where they barely brush it over it. Like, you know what? You're probably fine, Kelsey. And they just ask, are you having sex? No. Okay, good. And then I had others, so I go into more, like, detail. Like, well, you have a boyfriend. What are you guys doing? When you're touching, where do you touch? How long are you kissing? Are you laying down? You know, what thoughts are you having? And it was just, you know, more intrusive, more in depth, you know, and it puts you on the spot because you can't, like, look the person in the eye when you're talking about it, like, where do I look? I barely know you.

John Dehlin [01:20:38] You know, Bishop.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:20:39] Right? The bishop. Yeah, Bishop. Or a counselor, you know, but yeah, so it was always steeply uncomfortable. I was fortunate that I was never asked, like, anything that was more inappropriate than that. Like, some people I know that do. Some people I know were asked, like, really inappropriate questions, like, how many times did you have sex? Did you do oral sex? And that kind of thing, you know? But for me, other than that, I was just deeply uncomfortable. I did have one issue with the bishop, and it was more of a power thing than it was, like a sexual shaming thing. I don't know if that's relevant. Right after I was married, I needed my temple recommend.

John Dehlin [01:21:20] Oh, wait, we'll come. We'll go to byu, Idaho.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:21:22] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:21:23] Okay. That was high school.

Carah Burrell [01:21:24] We'll go chronologically.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:21:25] Sorry, guys.

Carah Burrell [01:21:26] As far as, like, teenage years, though, you didn't get into too much trouble, that you felt like you were much trouble?

Kelceymarie Warner [01:21:31] I was too afraid of going on you.

John Dehlin [01:21:35] Anything you want to say about messages about. Let's just say patriarchal or misogynistic messages about, you know, girl. Girls or women versus boys or men. Anything you want to say about messages you received as a girl may or may not have been helpful to you about your future, your purpose or anything.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:21:53] Yeah, I could definitely see that. So I was really encouraged to go to school, get married, and if you weren't married before 21, something was wrong with you, because then you want a mission, and girls that go on missions don't get married. That's what we're told, you know? Or like, it was just like even like the LDS movies we watched, you know, the RM or any of those by Hailstorm. It was just like, oh, she's going on a mission. She's 21 or something. I just feel like that message was there, you know, and so I feel, like, a lot of pressure that my purpose in life was to go out there and get married and have children.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:22:21] So I got married very young. You know, I met my ex husband when I was 18, my first semester. And we got married that August only because the semester ended there. We probably would have gotten married sooner just because of the church pushing. Our singles were really pushing, too. Sorry.

John Dehlin [01:22:37] That was the plan?

Kelceymarie Warner [01:22:37] Yeah, it was the plan. You know, if I didn't do those things, I wouldn't be happy. And I had kids right away simply because they say that, you know, it's the only joy you're gonna have in your life or the greatest joy, you know, which totally discounts people who choose not to have children, people who can't have children, people who don't want to get married, you know, and so I felt like if I didn't do those things, I was doing something very wrong. And so from a very young age, you know, high school, I was writing down lists of qualities that I was going to have my life partner, you know, and it was just a mentality. I had to go to school, I had to get married. If I didn't do those things, I was doing something wrong.

John Dehlin [01:23:16] And, and how much of the qualities were things you really wanted versus what, what the church told you you should?

Kelceymarie Warner [01:23:20] Oh, they were like church stuff, I don't care. Like my husband, cuz I'm remarried, my husband's not a returned missionary, I don't care, you know, but that was a huge thing. But the list, the list was LDS stuff, you know, goes to church every Sunday as a returned missionary, wears his garments every day or something stupid, you know, just things that we think will make a good church leader in the home. So there's definitely that message that my place was in the home and it was raising the next generation. Even my patriarchal blessing talks about how my children are gonna be a light in the world, you know, and how they are going, I'm gonna raise the next generation of souls. They're gonna do this amazing thing, you know, and they're gonna praise my name through generations, you know, the genealogy, the other thing.

John Dehlin [01:24:02] Okay, cool.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:24:03] As far as like patriarchy versus, you know, in the home, I was always treated differently than the boys in our ward, you know, where it's like, I excel, I kicked ass. I'll be honest with church stuff, you know, scripture, masteries. I remember ice all 100, like, tell me. I can tell you, right? And all the social activities and the volunteer stuff. And if one of the boys, you know, showed up that day, like, good job, you're doing great, man. Like I've been here every time, I'm like, yeah, but you're supposed to. I'm like, aren't they supposed to?

John Dehlin [01:24:33] You know?

Kelceymarie Warner [01:24:34] You know, it was just like I felt like girls were held to a higher standard. Maybe could have just been my ward, you know, it's totally possible. But it was like, like taught that women we were better. Not like better than like, like I'm better than you, but just that it's easier for us to follow the gospel. It's easier for us to be responsible, you know, And I feel like that was kind of like a message that Was taught very young with the church too. Patriarchy issues there. I don't know. That makes sense.

Carah Burrell [01:25:02] Yeah, that definitely makes sense. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:25:06] You mentioned a little bit about identity. I'm a Mormon or whatever. You know, it sounds like what I. What I hear you talking about are the different pieces of the Mormon identity, Whether it's patriarchal blessing messages about womanhood and motherhood and having kids and. Or worthiness or purity or body size or whatever.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:25:26] Right.

John Dehlin [01:25:26] Is there anything you want to say about or did the Mormon identity stuff that you mentioned in your outline come, come later?

Kelceymarie Warner [01:25:33] Happened in high school? When I was in high school, Ann M. Ann M. Dibb, the daughter of President. Former President Monson, did a talk in conference saying, I'm a Mormon. I know it, I live it, I love it. And I loved that talk so much.

John Dehlin [01:25:47] Why'd you love it?

Kelceymarie Warner [01:25:48] Because it gave me an identity that was positive. You know, who I was wasn't good enough inherently from childhood, you know, But I'm a Mormon, and so automatically that means that I am a good person. You know, I'm a kind person. I do social, not social activities, but like volunteer work, you know, and the identity kind of helped. It became who I was. I feel like in a lot of ways, we lose ourselves in the church because if you're not conforming, then there's something wrong, you know, I feel like conforming is basically your ticket to the social kingdom, you know, and so Mormon became my identity. You know, Mormon Girl was my username for all kinds of, like, online gaming stuff or, you know, just, you know,

John Dehlin [01:26:30] like, what's your alias?

Kelceymarie Warner [01:26:31] Yeah, gaming alias, Mormon Girl, Night 94 or something, you know, 2012, when I graduated, you know, so I just kind of clung to it because it was more stability, you know, more sign that somebody out there loved me, you know,

John Dehlin [01:26:45] and there's always, again, there's a trade off, because it's probably better to have some identity than to have no identity. But the trade off is if you get the Mormon identity, you may not discover your own identity internally. You may not pay attention to and. Or cultivate who you are, what you care about, what you really want out of life.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:27:05] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:27:05] And if it just so happens that you happen to be wired in alignment with the Mormon identity, well, then you're. It's smooth sailing.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:27:13] Right.

John Dehlin [01:27:13] But if you inside are the type of person that isn't fulfilled necessarily by being a mom or, or is bisexual or just.

Carah Burrell [01:27:21] You never know the sexuality that somebody's gonna have.

John Dehlin [01:27:23] Bisexual gender, marriage, kids, motherhood, career, profession, education, Whatever it is, if you don't line up, then you jump in, you get on the train of the Mormon identity, following all the Mormon rules. And then at some point along that train stop, you realize, whoa, there's a big part of this component that actually doesn't fit with who I am.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:27:46] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:27:47] And so that's the minus. The plus is you get an identity. The minus is it just may not be who you are and what's healthy for you.

Carah Burrell [01:27:53] Right.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:27:54] So I think that, like I said, it did help me, simply because my alternative was crap, and I could have gone with some other kind of crazy alternative, you know, so it was my lifeline in some ways. It did put me on an academic track, and it did ultimately lead to three children and a wonderful husband. You know, ultimately, in the long term. Yeah, very long term. I'm obviously no longer lds, because I had my. Whoa, I don't believe this crap, you know, but.

John Dehlin [01:28:18] And the first husband didn't work out.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:28:20] No, it did not. You know, we'll get there. We'll get there. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:28:23] But.

John Dehlin [01:28:25] Okay.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:28:25] Yeah.

Arriving at BYU-Idaho and Culture Shock

John Dehlin [01:28:26] All right, so. So byu, Idaho. Take us. Take us through that.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:28:30] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:28:30] And marriage and all that.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:28:32] So singles ward.

John Dehlin [01:28:35] In Rexburg.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:28:36] In Rexburg. So the Mormonists of Mormon.

John Dehlin [01:28:39] Is that a culture shock going from Texas to Rexburg?

Kelceymarie Warner [01:28:42] Because in Texas, we had cowboy churches, as, you know. You know, they play guitar in church or something. You know, it's pretty.

John Dehlin [01:28:48] Jeans. Yes.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:28:49] Cowboy jeans, you know, or Wrangler jeans.

Carah Burrell [01:28:51] Like, what I'm joining. Right.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:28:53] It's fun. You know, they, like. They get food after, like, donuts or pizza or something. What?

Carah Burrell [01:28:57] Right.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:28:58] Like, I want to go here, but then I'd be sending because I'm not lds, you know, and so my cousins went to, like, cowboy churches, which is, like, kind of like Baptist, I want to say, you know, and. Or they were Methodists. My neighbors were Methodist, which means you. For them, it meant you went to church on Sun, Easter and Christmas, you know, and then you had Southern Baptists, which were. They remind me of Mormons because they're very strict and judgmental, but they're also very different. So it was a culture shock to go to Rexburg and have everyone present themselves as if they believed the Mormon ideology. And it was like, wow, everyone's wearing, you know, modest clothing. No one has crazy hair. Everyone's in heterosexual relationships. It was just very different.

John Dehlin [01:29:44] Everyone's white.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:29:45] Everyone's white. Yeah. Most people are white. Yeah. I think I have, like, one person who wasn't white, and she was from, like, South Africa. Like they weren't even from America, you know. Yeah, it was kind of crazy. But I liked that I was surrounded by all the Mormons because I felt like finally I might have found my place, you know. And so I threw myself into the gospel like I said, you know, I took extra religion classes during the semesters just because I wanted to learn it all, you know, I wanted to.

John Dehlin [01:30:13] Extra, extra.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:30:14] Yeah, they actually.

John Dehlin [01:30:15] Because you were required to take like six or eight, right? Yeah, there's a lot through four years. Yeah.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:30:20] And I signed up for one every semester, including the off tracks. So when I graduated they had to like lit grant me a waiver to graduates. I actually had more credits necessary for a bachelor's degree just because I took too many classes. And so a lot of those were all church classes like church history, New Testament, etc. Etc.

John Dehlin [01:30:37] You know, Book of Mormon, Book of

Kelceymarie Warner [01:30:39] Mormon, marriage prep and whatever the birth of Christ is.

John Dehlin [01:30:43] Mission prep.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:30:44] I did. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:44] You took mission prep.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:30:47] This girl was in.

Carah Burrell [01:30:48] John.

John Dehlin [01:30:49] Well that's pretty. Yeah, that's pretty intense.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:30:51] I was committed. Yeah, I took it all. Everything that I could, you know, I just like immersed myself, you know, just drank it in. Like I was, it was water and I was like in the Sahara, you know.

Carah Burrell [01:31:02] Does this go back? Sorry to interject, but I remember from the very beginning you saying that the church. What was the language that you used exactly about. It was kind of like the love bombing language. John, if you remember at the very beginning where it just sounds like you can. I don't want to put words in your mouth or anything, but it just sounds like you associated the church with such a family from the very beginning that if you. I don't know if that would. That falls in line with all of the other like depression and self harm things that like if you're doing something, it sounds like you were doing the church. Yeah, like that was the thing you had.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:31:35] That was my coping mechanism.

John Dehlin [01:31:36] Oh, I see what you're saying.

Carah Burrell [01:31:37] You know what I mean?

John Dehlin [01:31:38] Like, like the church was your sims, basically.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:31:40] It was, it was like this mechanism. And looking back, I did lose my identity because I wasn't reading, you know, fictional books. I was reading like the Human Society, how they have those teaching of the prophets books. Like this week we're leaning like snow or whatever. I read those for fun, you know, when I wasn't studying, I. I lost my personality, honestly, you know, I was totally immersed into the gospel and just

Carah Burrell [01:32:03] like a high level of association with like Father in heaven, this is where I'll find love. This is where I find acceptance, like, and it sounds like you're very academically driven and that you were good at it and you're probably getting, I'm assuming, like, good grades and good accolades and pats on the back from your board members. And did you have like, you know, any kind of like, prestigious calling or whatever that, like, oh, that was. That's where you excelled. If that's not what you got at home, maybe, like, definitely. That's where the church definitely keeps that love upon you.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:32:33] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:32:33] Yeah.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:32:34] So it filled that void. It met all my needs. Love, acceptance and encouragement. Because they encourage you to do all kinds of things. So go to school, get married, have kids, you know, and it's always presented very positively. We never see the downside, what happens behind closed doors, you know, we never see the arguments, the mom's crying because they have, you know, five kids under the age of seven or something, you know, or, you know, and so it was my coping skill and it, it was unhealthy in a way just because it also took its toll emotionally, you know, so. And also was part of the reason why I stayed in my marriage for so long was because I was lds.

John Dehlin [01:33:12] Let's get to that. So, so you're dating, you start dating, you go to Rexburg, you have the culture shock.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:33:18] Yeah, it was kind of a whirlwind just because got married really fast. And in LDS culture, it's very normal to get married very young. You know, they say BYUI ring by spring or your money back, you know, Married by spring. Yeah, ring by spring, ring by spring, your money back, you know, and as a freshman. As a freshman.

John Dehlin [01:33:42] So by your second semester, you got your wedding.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:33:44] Yeah, when I finished the second semester. Yeah. Because.

Carah Burrell [01:33:46] And it sounds crazy, but I can put myself back as an 18 year old at UVU, first day of institute, you're like looking at who's cute, right? You're looking at who's already got a ring and you're like that dumb bitch, you know, you're just like you were. You're obsessed by the second you graduate high school because that's kind of what you're prepared to. That's the only thing you're really meant to do. It sounds like we're making it up, but it's. It's true.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:34:08] It's real. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:34:09] You know, just.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:34:10] And they like announce engagements every Sunday, you know, like Mikayla and Shay got. Yeah, they announced the engagements in Sacrament. Yeah. Like, here's the engagements this week, you know,

John Dehlin [01:34:23] and Sunday they're announcing the engagements weekly. No pressure.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:34:26] No pressure. Yeah. And, yeah, it's weird.

John Dehlin [01:34:32] One of the things about BYU is it makes church a meat market where every church is. You're all, like, proud. You're looking around, who's free, who's available, who's not, who's taken, who's cute, who can you, you know.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:34:45] Exactly.

Carah Burrell [01:34:45] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:34:46] And your confidence merges weirdness with religion.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:34:48] It does. You're constantly dating, too, because you expect to go on dates with different people throughout the week. You know, I have, like, three dates and three different guys in a week, you know.

John Dehlin [01:34:56] That's nice.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:34:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:34:58] You know, there are girls that don't date when they're at byu, so.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:35:00] Well, I did. Yeah, I did, because that was my whole purpose, you know, is to get married and have kids. And my ex husband and I, He. I wasn't really intimate first, but he was my. My friend, and he was kind of, like, always there, so it's kind of like a comfortable thing. And so he just kept asking me out, so I kept going out. And then someone's like, well, aren't you together? I'm like, like, no. Like, does he know you're not together? I'm like, wait, are we together? And then we were just kind of together, you know, and then we were talking about getting married, like, two months in, you know, into the semester.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:35:32] Like, probably February or maybe even March. It was so soon. You know, looking back, I'm just like, it's totally normal in the LDS culture, but now that you're out of it, you would never marry someone within, like, four months of knowing them. That's, like, crazy, you know?

Carah Burrell [01:35:44] Had you, like, confronted your bisexuality at that point?

Kelceymarie Warner [01:35:47] Not really. I was suppressing it. Yeah. Like, burying it. Deep down, I told myself that I wasn't actually attracted to someone. I just wanted to look like them. Which goes back to the eating disorder, you know, Like, I don't think she has great legs. I just want to have her legs. There you go.

Carah Burrell [01:36:02] You know?

Kelceymarie Warner [01:36:02] And so I just kind of, like, took whatever I was feeling and like, reshaped it into something that's more acceptable. I could handle that. I had, like, you know, an ED in the back of my mind. I couldn't handle that I liked girls, you know, and so I also threw myself into the idea of a heterosexual marriage just because that would also probably kind of confirm that I was doing the right thing, you know, There was no. There's nothing else, you know, and we got married eight months later, only because that's when the semester Ended if we could have gotten married sooner, probably would have just because of church. People always ask, like, are you married yet? Are you engaged yet? Our bishop would ask us, you know, like, oh, we're just dating, you know, four months, five months, you know, so it's really pushed and.

John Dehlin [01:36:48] And just. Just to kind of really put a fine point on it. For those who aren't Mormon, this is. If there's a machine in Mormonism, it's that the youth are taught that their purpose is to go on missions and get married early and have lots of kids and to get married in the temple and to marry a returned missionary. Then when you go on a mission, if you go on a mission, as soon as you're done with your mission, your mission president sits you down and says, your number one goal now that you're going to college is to get married very quickly and have kids as soon as you can.

John Dehlin [01:37:17] Don't put off. So it's literally a procedural machine. And then preferably you go to one of the BYU's, because that's where other faithful, worthy people are. And then there's this meat market machine where the bishops are all. And the culture is all just completely oriented towards getting you married off in your first year or second year at the latest. And if you're a real slacker, you get married in your third or fourth year. And honestly, if you leave BYU without getting married, you're worried about your life. For me, I'm 24. I'm like, I'm about to graduate from BYU. Who am I going to marry? Who am I dating?

John Dehlin [01:37:55] Okay, we're getting married because if I leave here and go to grad school somewhere else, I'm not going to find a Mormon woman. So time's up, Margi, we're getting married. You know, she was willing, but the point is, it's a machine and it's deliberately and intentionally machine. And it's one of the most important ways that the Mormon Church maintains generational loyalty to the church.

John Dehlin [01:38:22] The youth are the most important thing to the Mormon Church, period. Period. To the point where the Mormon Church recently eliminated the position of young men's leader and made the bishop the young men's leader. Because they wanted to send the message to bishops that if you have one job, it's to get your youth on missions so that then they can get married, go to one of the BYU's so that then you can get married. And the church has done sociological demographic research, and it's proven to them that the number one guarantee that someone's going to stay faithful, become a tithe paying member and have lots of kids that make more Mormons is to go on missions, go to byu, get married as soon as possible, and have kids as soon as possible. So it's intentional. And you were. You were all part of that machinery.

Temple Endowment and the Wedding Experience

Kelceymarie Warner [01:39:06] I was, Yeah, I was. And boy, was it a shocker when it wasn't happily ever after, you know?

John Dehlin [01:39:11] Okay, so you did it. So you get engaged when?

Kelceymarie Warner [01:39:14] Probably May.

John Dehlin [01:39:16] May.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:39:16] We met in January.

John Dehlin [01:39:18] Why did she start in the fall?

Kelceymarie Warner [01:39:22] My mom wanted me to go in the winter, I guess.

John Dehlin [01:39:23] Okay, okay. So you started a semester in. So. Wow, that's even more intense.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:39:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:39:27] So you go there in January, you meet, you get engaged in May. In May, and then you're married by August.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:39:34] Yeah, beginning of August. Simply because that was as soon as we could get home and get family there, you know. And where is he from? He was actually from King. No, Spring, Texas.

John Dehlin [01:39:44] Oh, he's in Spring.

Carah Burrell [01:39:45] Yeah.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:39:46] My mom loved it. Yeah. She's like, oh my gosh. All the way across the United States. United States. To find some guy live two hours away or something. Not even two hours. Like an hour, you know.

John Dehlin [01:39:54] Yeah, yeah. It's between Houston and.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:39:56] Yeah, it's not far away at all. I go there all the time, you know, but. Yeah, and so sorry, I had a thought.

John Dehlin [01:40:03] Which temple? Houston Temple.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:40:04] Yeah, I made the Houston Temple. It was pretty worked out. The wedding dress was terrible because I was. I wasn't going to be vain and spend money on like an actual wedding gown that was going wear once. Like, why would I spend any know, $1,000? And it's a hang my closet. That's just so vain, you know, I wore my temple gown. I have like wedding photos and a temple gown. So ugly. Oh, no.

Carah Burrell [01:40:24] Oh, no.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:40:25] Didn't fit me, right? Oh, my gosh.

Carah Burrell [01:40:26] Yeah, those fit terribly. That was a benefit of giving up Mormonism is I never had to wear my temple gown again because they.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:40:33] I got long arms here.

Carah Burrell [01:40:37] And you. Sorry, John, I'm going to interject.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:40:39] Sorry.

Carah Burrell [01:40:40] Women's chat over here. Talking about dresses, fashion thigh gaps over here. No, just kidding. So you mentioned earlier that you liked the temple as a child. Were you also implying that you liked the endowment ceremony and the temple in general?

Kelceymarie Warner [01:40:54] I told myself I liked it. I thought it was weird. So, yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:40:58] What was your endowment experience, if you want to take us through that? Because I'm assuming you did it right before you got married.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:41:03] I did.

John Dehlin [01:41:04] On the same day and also right before. Can you just Tell us, did you have problems with worthiness in your engagement leading up to your marriage? Not because I'm trying to get salacious details, but that's. That's a significant part of many young couples experience. So there. Were there. You guys didn't have to.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:41:22] I was so Mormon, I wouldn't kiss him till we were engaged. Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:41:27] Okay, good.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:41:28] Yeah, we. No, I didn't have any issues with worthiness with my ex husband.

John Dehlin [01:41:33] Okay.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:41:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:41:34] Which. Which may seem like a virtue, but it also could be a problem. It goes back to wanting to jump each other's bones. There's a chance there's a problem there.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:41:44] Oh, yeah, right. There was issues. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:41:47] Like the good girl syndrome. Or you're talking about earlier about like,

John Dehlin [01:41:50] you know, differences or.

Carah Burrell [01:41:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:41:52] Attraction issues. You're not attract. You know, there's all sorts of stuff.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:41:55] Right.

John Dehlin [01:41:55] Yeah.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:41:56] So. Yeah. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:41:57] Okay, so skip. We'll. We'll skip that worthiness part.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:42:00] I didn't have an issue with worthiness, but endowments. I thought it was weird. I told myself that it was a good thing just because I really. You know, you look forward to it for years. The endowment process. You're going to learn so much and you're going to get sealed.

John Dehlin [01:42:12] The pinnacles. The first ritual that you know of because you don't know about the second endowment. So it's the. You don't know about the second endowment.

Carah Burrell [01:42:19] It's telling me. Second anointing.

John Dehlin [01:42:20] Yeah, it's also.

Carah Burrell [01:42:22] It's called second.

John Dehlin [01:42:22] Okay, sorry. Second anointing.

Carah Burrell [01:42:24] Do you know about the second anointing ceremony? I have a video on it.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:42:27] What is it?

Carah Burrell [01:42:28] It's a. It's a special ceremony just for like the top elite leaders that are well connected.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:42:32] Is something. But I don't know what it is. This. You have to tell me.

John Dehlin [01:42:35] Oh, it's okay.

Carah Burrell [01:42:35] It's okay. We don't have to. But it's, you know, further light and knowledge, you could say. But yeah. So you're saying how this is supposed to be the pinnacle, the endowment ceremony.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:42:44] Okay.

Carah Burrell [01:42:44] More weird stuff that most Mormons actually don't know about. But.

John Dehlin [01:42:47] But Google it. Google it.

Carah Burrell [01:42:49] I'll Google it.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:42:49] Like, I heard rumors, but look at

John Dehlin [01:42:51] the Tom Phillips interview for the second.

Carah Burrell [01:42:52] Or the Hans or Nuance House Tik Tok channel. I have a couple videos on second.

John Dehlin [01:42:58] So the dumb.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:42:58] It. Yeah. Comments. It was weird. So, like, what the freak are you wearing? Okay. I was wearing, you know, this long baggy dress. My temple gown for modesty purposes. And then we were wearing like aprons it was like the green aprons with like a sash. And I had, I want to say it might have been a bonnet, I don't even know, but it had like a long veil over it. It was very pioneer feeling and very cult feeling. It was not at all what I was expecting. If anything, I thought we'd wear something really cool like Lord of the Rings stuff. I don't know. And. And my ex husband was dressed very similarly with like a giant poofy bonnet on his head. I don't know, it was dumb. And I called a baker hat. I call it. What?

John Dehlin [01:43:38] A baker hat.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:43:38] A baker hat. Oh yeah. Like a baker. Okay, I can see that. Yeah. So it was weird. And the part that I still remember that kind of scared me was when it zooms in on Satan's face. Because there's a movie in the temple, by the way, guys. And you watch a movie, the movie is where it like explains creation basically and God's hypothetical conversation with Christ and talk about the signs and tokens. Stuff to get into heaven. Basically.

John Dehlin [01:44:07] And handshakes to get into heaven.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:44:09] Handshakes to get into heaven. Right. Totally worried about my husband who's not been down, but I told about it. Anyways, they zoom into Satan's face and I was conflicted because for one I thought Satan was hot. That. And that was like a weird thing to felt. And the other thing was attached to Satan. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:44:25] And that's the sexiest Satan. Now there's various actors. Yeah, actors who do it. You had sexy Satan. I'm glad I connected.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:44:31] I thought he was really cute. Yeah. And I'm sorry, train of thought. Okay, so zoom in his face and he's like. And if, basically, if you don't keep these commandments, your soul will belong to me forever.

John Dehlin [01:44:43] You'll be in my power.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:44:45] That is.

Carah Burrell [01:44:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:46] You don't walk up to every covenant that you make in the temple this day.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:44:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:49] You will be in my path.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:44:51] Right.

Carah Burrell [01:44:51] You know, I was like, Satan breaks the fourth wall, stares into your soul.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:44:57] And that just added like more fear. So like all is going into it. And now there was this too. My soul belonged to Satan, who would not be Corbin. Alright. When I died, you know, you know, it was like really scary.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:45:12] Okay. They want, they're sending a message. I get it. You know, and then we did the prayer circle. Do you guys know the prayer circle where you're like the box of cards for the temple names, you know, and they said, who wants to join? And I'm like, I'll join. Sure. And so you get into a circle and the long veil thing I was wearing gets thrown over my face. And it's like a circle of people with, like, veils over their faces. I don't think the guys have one, the girls do. Just girls? Yeah. And they put their hands on your shoulders and then you do a sign, you know, and you repeat a prayer in a circle. And it's so quiet except for your voices. And your voices sound like chanting to me.

John Dehlin [01:45:47] No, it is chanting.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:45:48] It's chanting, you know, and your face is covered. And I was like, okay, I'm not in a cult, you know, it's okay. This is supposed to happen. I'm just higher learning, you know, I'll get used to it. And then I had to go to the veil. And the veil is like a curtain. You step to the curtain and you place your hand through the curtain and you hold a stranger's hand, you know, and they hold it in whatever the position is.

John Dehlin [01:46:15] Patriarchal grip.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:46:15] Patriarchal grip, for sure.

John Dehlin [01:46:16] Sign of the nail.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:46:17] Yeah, it's right here, you know?

Carah Burrell [01:46:18] Yeah.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:46:18] I remember the gesture. And they have someone, a girl, whispering in my ear, telling me what to say. The patriarchal for sure sign the nail. There's so much more. I can't remember the rest, you know, and repeating it. And then you're given a name in the temple and a new name. A new name. But I'm told that it wasn't my name before. Like, it wasn't God's name for me. It was just my key into heaven, basically. Like a passcode almost. It's how my. I would tell it to my husband when I died.

John Dehlin [01:46:48] It's like the pin number.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:46:50] Like a pin number to get in. Yeah. And so, like, I had to say my name. My name was Lucy, by the way. And you know, she just drops.

John Dehlin [01:46:57] That

Carah Burrell [01:47:01] can add more context to that if you want that that's the name that your husband would call you out of the resurrection, that Jesus would call. You're not allowed to know your husband's name. Let's go back to some patriarchy there. Yeah, that's a problem. But yours, you know, yours. He needs to know yours because you're going to be dead in the ground. And when Jesus resurrects him by his new name, he will call Lucy from the ground.

John Dehlin [01:47:24] Because you don't get. You don't get to go to heaven on your own.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:47:26] Right? I need him.

John Dehlin [01:47:27] You need him to call you into. Call you into heaven. Yeah.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:47:32] I totally forgot that I had to get married to go to the top part of the social kingdom that was part of the driving force, because there's a celestial kingdom. And then you have, like, the three sections within it. I was told in the very top, you know, the very elite, they got married, you know, and so also just.

John Dehlin [01:47:46] You would have. He would have made his covenants to God in the temple ceremony directly with God, pay tithing, law of consecration, law of the gospel, all that.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:47:55] That.

John Dehlin [01:47:56] And then you would have made your covenants to him and to hearken unto him as he obeys Heavenly Father.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:48:02] Right.

John Dehlin [01:48:03] Now, they changed that because we made a big enough stink on the Internet, but for 150, 200 years, the woman covenanted with her husband and the husband covenanted with God. Do you remember that?

Kelceymarie Warner [01:48:14] I don't remember.

John Dehlin [01:48:15] You probably blocked that.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:48:16] I probably blocked it out. They said a whole lot to me. My brain could not process it. Like, if you just keep coming, you'll get used to it. You'll learn more.

John Dehlin [01:48:22] I'm like.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:48:22] It's a blur, you know, Lots of things that I said. I don't even know what I said, the meanings for, you know, what did I promise?

John Dehlin [01:48:28] They don't tell you ahead of time. They don't tell you ahead of time what you're going to be experiencing, what you're going to be learning, what you're going to be committing to. You're going to be committing the rest of your life, time, money, your life, if necessary, to the kingdom of gospel, which is the church.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:48:41] Right.

John Dehlin [01:48:41] You're just. It's just this big blur of lifetime commitment.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:48:45] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:48:45] With no consent. No informed consent.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:48:47] No. Because you don't really know what you're getting into. Yeah, yeah. And so went through the veil, and then I was in the celestial room. And that was amazing. That was the highlight of the entire.

John Dehlin [01:48:57] Chandeliers. White.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:48:58] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:48:59] Beautiful white furniture.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:49:00] Gorgeous.

John Dehlin [01:49:00] Quiet.

Carah Burrell [01:49:01] And you usually have like a. What's the word? Person who takes you through.

John Dehlin [01:49:05] Matron or patron.

Carah Burrell [01:49:07] Did you have a chaperone's not the word I'm looking for. But, like, was your mom or anyone else in your family part of the endowment ceremony when you went there?

Kelceymarie Warner [01:49:14] My mom wasn't because she wasn't endowed. But I did have a childhood friend. She was my mom's best friend, and she walked me through it. Her name. Yeah, she was a really great person and she took me through, so it was really nice because I. What I didn't have in my mother, I kind of had with this woman. I'm not gonna name her because she might see it Someday. But she's incredible, and it was really great to have that mother daughter experience with her and also reinforce the eternal family thing for me, which is the best part of the church, in my opinion. What? You know, so the celestial room was a really cool experience.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:49:52] And even when I got married, it was just like, wow, someday we're gonna have, you know, an eternal family. And one day when our kids are a dow, they're gonna be in this room, too. And it's basically like heaven. You know, everything's perfect. Yeah, it does. And then the wedding's over, you know?

Marriage Struggles and Sexual Dysfunction

John Dehlin [01:50:09] Okay, so we just highlighted something else really important. Your mom would have not been able to attend your own wedding.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:50:14] Wedding. Oh, right.

Carah Burrell [01:50:17] She.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:50:18] Gosh. How did that happen? Let me think.

John Dehlin [01:50:20] Well, she. She. She wouldn't be endowed, so she wasn't worthy to go.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:50:24] Was she not?

John Dehlin [01:50:26] Or. Or was she?

Kelceymarie Warner [01:50:28] I'm trying to remember now. I'm sorry.

John Dehlin [01:50:30] It's okay.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:50:32] Obviously, she wasn't that big of a rule if I don't remember being there, but, you know, like, maybe she was there. I just don't remember. I remember Jacqueline being there. Sorry, Jaco. Remember her being there, there. But I guess maybe she had to be there because she did go, my wedding. My wedding was like, a couple hours later. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:50:47] Maybe she was intimidated to accompany you through your own endowment ceremony because maybe she didn't remember it right. Or maybe she didn't like it right. So it could be that she had someone who was more experienced going through the temple, be your companion.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:51:00] Maybe she chose her name.

John Dehlin [01:51:02] What's that?

Kelceymarie Warner [01:51:03] You're right. She might have been my matron, or whatever they were called, because that. Because Jack, that lady was my matron. My mom might have been there quietly in the background. Actually, I don't quite remember.

John Dehlin [01:51:12] Oh, that's.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:51:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:51:13] Well, sometimes, if you're lucky enough, your parents get to see you get married, if for some reason the church deems them unworthy or they don't pay their tithing or they don't have the temple recommend.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:51:22] Right.

John Dehlin [01:51:22] Your parents are sitting outside the temple while you get married in the temple. That's. I just had to call that out. That may or may not been your experience.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:51:29] No, yeah, I. I totally forgot that she was there for that part. But I do remember being a big deal that my step up dad, who I love very much, James, he struggles with alcoholism, and he had regressed, fallen off the wagon while I was engaged. And the bishop had him set a goal to be sober for, like, two weeks or something. And we Give him his recommend back just so he could go to the temple with me.

John Dehlin [01:51:55] Nice.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:51:56] Yeah, so that was actually cool. He was there, so she had to be there. I just can't quite. Yeah. And. But for a lot of people, you can't go into the wedding. You know, there's. Sometimes you can go in the waiting room, but I have friends, you know, who left the church. Like, my baby brother just got back from his mission. You know, he's dating. He's gonna marry his high school sweetheart in like, three weeks, and I can't be there. You know, I love her, I love him, and I have to wait outside for however long. You know, it just wasn't fair. And I feel like the church kind of steals wedding days in that way, because your wedding day is supposed to be this incredible moment.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:52:29] It's, you know, it's a milestone in your life where you. You're celebrating with your friends and your family, and you can't even really have a ring ceremony because it's almost as if it devalues what covenants you made in the temple. You know, in fact, I was given a talk by someone, you know, talking to. From someone saying that I shouldn't have a ring ceremony, you know, because it devalued. And so instead we compromised by having my bishop explained that all this cool stuff already happened. The temple. Sorry you couldn't be there, but Kelsey and so. And so are married, you know, and.

John Dehlin [01:53:00] And just so listeners understand what we mean by ring ceremony, it's. It's. If you happen to have a lot of non Mormons or inactive Mormons or unworthy Mormons or never Mormons in your immediate or extended family, and they're all sitting outside the temple on your wedding day, which happens a lot, then this idea is. Is in the culture. It's like, well, they can't be at the actual wedding, but when you're at the reception, you can exchange rings and in that way let them feel like they've been a part of the experience even though they weren't. It's kind of like a booby price. But then the church often interjects itself and says no, like you said, right. If you hold a ring ceremony just to make all these people excluded feel comfortable.

Carah Burrell [01:53:40] Right.

John Dehlin [01:53:41] You're cheapening the actual celestial marriage, which in my interpretation is just one big way to force people to pay tithing and to obey the church so that they feel pressure to be there at the main event. That's how I interpret it. Maybe that's an uncharitable that makes sense. Interpretation. Why else wouldn't you give people an experience, a faux wedding, just to make them feel like they're not total losers and. Yeah, the whole thing.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:54:05] Right.

John Dehlin [01:54:06] You know, so that. Anyway, is that what you.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:54:08] Absolutely. You know, I. Because initially I thought, well, at least I can like walk down an aisle, you know, for my relatives, because my extended family is not lds. My cousins, my, my aunts and uncles and grandparents aren't lds. You know, I could do that. And it's like, no, you can't do that. We don't even have an aisle in the church. I mean, we have like aisles between pews, but like a center aisle like you see in movies, you know. And so I know it bothered my extended. I'm like, kelsey, why can't I be there? I'm like, I'm sorry. You know, but the truth is, I do think it's a control tactic.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:54:37] Like, well, if you were lds, you could go and it goes back to the eternal family. If your LDS will be a family forever, you know, here's your ticket on earth and it's just let us in heaven, you know, get with the program or leave, you know.

John Dehlin [01:54:49] Yeah.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:54:50] So.

John Dehlin [01:54:50] And it becomes the church kind of. And I'm not saying this is intentional, but if you can control, seize control of kind of the major life events, the birth of the child, the Blessing, kind of 8 years old, the baptism, coming of age, young men's, young women's priesthood. Right. Marriage and wedding. Got to get that. And then of course, death or funerals. If the church and education. Right. If the church can sort of seize control of those important touchstone milestones. Those are really important points for enforcement of rules and allegiance and reward or punishment and tithing, frankly.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:55:33] I agree.

John Dehlin [01:55:34] Yeah. All that are there. If you look at it from a charitable point of view, it's just religious rights and spirituality and, and things you need to do to make this social kingdom. If you look at it sort of from a coercion standpoint, it's seizing control of all the important milestones so the church can wield as much undue influence as possible.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:55:51] Right.

John Dehlin [01:55:52] On the. On everyone. Not everyone. Everyone in it and everyone around those who are in it. Right.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:55:57] I agree. Absolutely. It's definitely another just way to control. So, yeah, I was kind of sad just because I couldn't be there, but I told myself that it was. Was for the best.

John Dehlin [01:56:08] Yeah.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:56:08] You know, and next comes sexual shame, I guess. Cuz the wedding night, I had waited until I was married just because I felt like I had to, you know, gospel. And I was really nervous, and I could not turn off that. Years of, no, we don't. We don't even think of these things, you know, I couldn't turn that off, you know, and so that was very difficult for a long time, just because I could never be okay with it, you know.

John Dehlin [01:56:35] Took years and just enjoy sex with your husband, basically.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:56:40] Yeah. You know, it just took years. And just because I felt like it was dirty, it was wrong, you know, And I had sexual feelings, you know. Absolutely. But the possibility of acting on those was just. I could not turn that part of my brain off. And then

John Dehlin [01:56:57] I caused stress in the marriage.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:57:00] No. Because of the LDS teachings. Maybe it's not all got wards, but my ward and my mom always taught that you shouldn't tell your spouse no. And so I basically always said yes, even though I was uncomfortable with it, even though I didn't like it, you know.

John Dehlin [01:57:18] How is that for your mental health?

Kelceymarie Warner [01:57:20] It was not great. Yeah, it was pretty bad.

John Dehlin [01:57:24] What's the downside of that? From a mental health perspective?

Kelceymarie Warner [01:57:28] You don't really have ownership of your own body, you know, so I've already lost my entire identity to the church. I'm no longer who I am today, you know. But also your body's gone, too, because I didn't really belong to you. Along with a constant motherhood as well, you know, your body belongs to your children. You're pregnant constantly, you're breastfeeding constantly, because lds, you know, then you have your husband when you get home, and it's just constant giving, even, you know, just emotionally, you know, not just physically. And it was just exhausting. I was so depressed.

John Dehlin [01:58:02] Giving Tree.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:58:03] Yeah, I was a giving tree. I love that book. That's a good book. It's really sad.

John Dehlin [01:58:06] It's a tragic book.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:58:07] It's a tragic book. Yeah. It gives so much. Yeah. And so it's just emotionally exhausting. And it just reinforced the negative attitude I had towards sex, just because it was never what I wanted it to be, because I couldn't. There's just so much, you know, and that didn't really change. So I left the church.

John Dehlin [01:58:28] Yeah. And if I can just add a tiny bit, and you guys know more about this than me, but, you know, there are two super broken things about sexuality in Mormon youth. One is that this super unhealthy focus on boys. Don't masturbate, don't look at porn. You're. You know. And of course, all the modesty rhetoric towards women, you know, just. And again, it's all focused on keeping the boys worthy, and the girls are supposed to control the boys and keep them in line.

John Dehlin [01:58:57] So there's. That's really problematic for the boys, and it's problematic for the girls because it's putting on them stuff that shouldn't be theirs to own and carry. But then the other thing that we don't think about is that girls just aren't sexual creatures in Mormonism.

John Dehlin [01:59:15] So it's not just that you're getting bad messages about sex. You. You aren't even allowed to have sexual thoughts. Your sexuality isn't even on the table for discussion. So it just doesn't exist.

Carah Burrell [01:59:28] Right.

John Dehlin [01:59:29] So you not, you know, so not only are. Do you bring to a marriage and you guys tell me if I'm wrong, you bring to the marriage all this. No, no, no. Shame, shame, shame. Bad, bad, bad. Gatekeeper. Gatekeeper. Gatekeeper. But the idea of actually a woman having sex because there's pleasure and knowing her body and. And having. Being a part of the experience and getting gratification and edification.

Kelceymarie Warner [01:59:53] Right.

John Dehlin [01:59:53] That's just not even in the universe of contemplation. Am I wrong?

Kelceymarie Warner [01:59:57] No, absolutely.

Carah Burrell [01:59:58] I think, John, you'll know from my interview that I had a very, very healthy ideas around sex growing up. And it took some maturing. Maturing for me to realize that that was not standard. So I am in the.

John Dehlin [02:00:10] You were in the 99th.

Carah Burrell [02:00:11] I was. I was, yeah. I was the exception to the rule. And it took a lot of growing up and listening to other people because I would have looked at somebody like you, Kelsey, where I was like, I don't know where you're getting that message from. Oh, yeah. Until you grow up and you start to read and you're like, that's very much where the message comes straight from the top, actually. So it would be my leaders who kind of went off script and giving me a lot of, you know, more feminist ideals and stuff. And you'll find we were talking about this in the Mike Sals interview with Kelly and Kayla about how the standard is kind of these unhealthy things.

Carah Burrell [02:00:44] And it. It takes finding Facebook groups and finding other therapists and help. There's definitely Mormon women who believe other things about sexuality. But is it taught? No. That's what that would be my opinion.

John Dehlin [02:00:55] It's like almost lucky, you know, lucky to have that leader, to have not have a bad experience. Right.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:01:02] I definitely wasn't the only one. Like, so many women I know just they couldn't relax. You know, we were taught at BYUI in classrooms not to have oral sex because it was a sin, because it was a selfish act, because you were just helping your partner. It wasn't like a two way street leading to procreation, you know, and so

John Dehlin [02:01:20] there's a problem with that. I mean, at least, at least from my experience is that many women don't achieve orgasm.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:01:26] Right.

John Dehlin [02:01:27] And this is going to be explicit, but through penile vaginal intercourse. Like, let's just say 70% of women are like not capable of achieving orgasm. So if you, if digital stimulation and, or oral stimulation are considered evil and sinful, guess what? Women. Women aren't going to be enjoying sex and having orgasms.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:01:47] Right.

John Dehlin [02:01:48] But if you're even there, you're lucky because you're even talking about the possibility of women having orgasm orgasms. In so many young Mormon marriages, just a woman will go five or 10 years and it's not even ever even a thought or on the table. It's just the guy does the thing and then.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:02:04] Then it's done.

John Dehlin [02:02:04] Yeah. And not tell me if that's. If I'm.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:02:06] That's accurate.

John Dehlin [02:02:07] Okay.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:02:07] Yeah. So, yeah, definitely not alone there.

John Dehlin [02:02:13] So you weren't having a lot of fun?

Kelceymarie Warner [02:02:14] No, I was actually married for six years and I didn't until I married my. My husband.

John Dehlin [02:02:23] You did. Wait, you didn't?

Kelceymarie Warner [02:02:24] I didn't. I get it.

Carah Burrell [02:02:25] There's a wink and a nod over here. Look at me, Kelsey. I know what you mean.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:02:30] Okay, sorry, sorry. If I get tick tock banned, let me know.

John Dehlin [02:02:34] Okay?

Kelceymarie Warner [02:02:35] But I didn't orgasm at all in my entire six years of marriage.

John Dehlin [02:02:38] Of your first marriage?

Kelceymarie Warner [02:02:39] Yeah. Because not one time in six years, not one time. I thought maybe I got close one time, but I didn't, you know, and it was the sexual shame. And then of course, we had a lot of major issues in our marriage. So, you know, there's also an emotional component for a lot of people too, you know, and I couldn't orgasm because of that as well. But once I left the church, suddenly I was a new person, you know, that makes sense. You know.

Carah Burrell [02:03:04] And how was this on your husband?

Kelceymarie Warner [02:03:06] I never told him.

Carah Burrell [02:03:06] You never told him?

Kelceymarie Warner [02:03:07] He never watches this.

Carah Burrell [02:03:09] Oh. Because it sounds. The gist. The vibe that I'm getting here is that you were never quite head over heels in love with him.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:03:16] I actually wasn't. I thought that I loved my ex husband. I thought that I did. But I was in love with the idea of getting married. The idea of having this great thing. Cause we were comfortable together, like all the Same movies. We enjoy doing stuff together, you know, And I thought that was love because I never saw love in the home. Right. You know, because my parents, my mom, you know, she had so many lovers and boyfriends and husbands, you know, I never really saw what love was. And I wasn't allowed really to date either. My mom was too scared of me getting pregnant. So I had like one boyfriend when I was 16. That was pretty much it, you know, I didn't really experience it. And so I thought comfortable was love, you know. And we're also told that anyone can be happy as long as they're righteous.

Carah Burrell [02:03:59] Yes.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:03:59] The message, you know, even though if we're not like love now, love grows over time, you know, we'll get there. And so that was another part of the issue, you know, and that was when my ex husband. Not my, not my husband, sorry, clarify. I didn't orgasm until I met my husband.

John Dehlin [02:04:17] Which means you were how old?

Kelceymarie Warner [02:04:19] 20, almost 25.

John Dehlin [02:04:20] For your first.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:04:21] First time? Yeah. Orgasm.

Carah Burrell [02:04:23] Yeah, Just women. Sexual gratification is not the top priority because we know that the husband will get there. The woman is not always a guarantee unless the work is put in. Unless all of these different needs are met emotionally, physically. So yeah, it's disappointing. Yeah.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:04:43] Oh my gosh.

Why the Marriage Fell Apart

John Dehlin [02:04:45] So what was it about the marriage that didn't work?

Kelceymarie Warner [02:04:47] Oh, my God, so much. I actually didn't want to get married. The day before I got married, we went to a rehearsal dinner with family and we got into an argument because he found out that my four month boyfriend, we dated for four months when I was a junior from high school. He was going to come to a reception possibly because his mother was my matron in the temple. I was very close with his family and so I just figured I'd invite the whole family because I don't have feelings for my ex boyfriend from like three years ago, you know, so why not just invite the whole family?

Kelceymarie Warner [02:05:20] I didn't think it'd be an issue. And he was so upset about the possibility of my ex boyfriend being there that he didn't talk to me for the entire car ride from like the chapel to like Spring, Texas. It was like an hour ride. It wasn't like, you know, I'm not gonna talk to you right now. It was just like I didn't exist. Like I was like waving my hand in front of his face and it was just like I wasn't even in the car. Like full on cold shoulder. Stonewalling, I think is a clinical term. And I was like, wow, this is a major red flag.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:05:45] If we're not even married yet and you're doing this, what is this going to be like? You know? And I almost called it off, but then I was thinking about all the people that came down for the wedding, all the money they've been spent, you know, people to volunteer time.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:06:01] Am I gonna go to reception with both of our families and say, sorry, no, I can't do that? You know, that'd be so awkward. I can't disappoint all these people because then it was no longer about me and my happiness. It was about people pleasing to God, you know?

Carah Burrell [02:06:15] No. Right.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:06:16] And so that was the first sign. And then things were okay the first two or three months, but the control issues began. It was like, why are you putting on makeup? You know, why are you going to the gym? Who are you trying to impress? You know, you can't talk to him. He's a guy. You're gonna have an affair. He's cheating, Kelsey. You're so naive. You don't understand. This is how guys are. And so it became very controlling. So if I went, I just took care of myself. It was a bad thing, you know, and looking back on pictures, I just. From what I'm. When I think about how I lost myself in the church, I lost myself even more in the marriage, you know, because I couldn't do the things I loved anymore.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:06:56] I couldn't talk to the friends that I had because it was taking away time from my husband, you know, and if I didn't do what he wanted, then he would, you know, have, like, screaming fits. And I already had trauma from childhood with domestic violence, so I was terrified of confrontation, you know, like, please don't yell at me. You know, I can't. I can't handle being yelled at. And.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:07:18] Or he would ignore me. And being ignored is hard, too, from a child with domestic violence, Just because it's a tool for parents to control you, you know, it just also reinforces that you aren't good enough. You don't have value unless you make me happy the longest. He full on normally, like, you know, hand waving in the face, no reaction. Was three days. Just, like, walk past me in the house. There was, like, nothing for three days.

John Dehlin [02:07:38] You know, some say this most severe form of punishment or torture being ignored.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:07:43] It was terrible.

John Dehlin [02:07:44] Some say it's worse than actually violence.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:07:46] Right? It was awful. And then the third night, he rolled over in bed and wanted to have sex. And I was like, what? He's like, well, I was gonna go my Goal was six days, but I felt like six days was pushing in you, you know, like, oh, my God. And so I was constantly being emotionally beat down by my husband, you know, and constantly giving myself, trying to be a good person. And then, of course, I had the issues ongoing with my family because they're always very present in my life just because they're very toxic. And I put on a front that everything was okay.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:08:25] Like, if you go through my old Instagram, my old Mormon mommy blog, you know, everything looks great. You know, I mean, I, I, I talked as if I was happy. I mean, post as if I was happy because I had to be this person that was, you know, always the ideal Mormon girl, you know, even though I was dying inside. And when I had my oldest daughter, he picked this huge fight, you know, and there was some domestic violence and said I couldn't leave because if I did, he would win custody and I would never see my baby again. And that goes back to, you know, eternal families, I think, being broken.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:09:13] And so I stayed for a long time because I was scared. I was scared to leave, that I would lose my children and fear and control, which also goes back to church. I was. Can I feel like I was conditioned to be in a toxic relationship partly because my family, but also partly because of the gospel, you know, we're told to stick it out. If you pray hard enough, it'll get better. If I'm a good enough example, he will choose the right.

John Dehlin [02:09:39] You know, also patriarchy.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:09:41] Patriarchy. I was already conditioned for control.

John Dehlin [02:09:44] You know, men, men are in charge.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:09:46] He's in charge. He's the head of the household, you know, and what he says goes. And if he doesn't, if I don't do what he wants, it's going to be how, you know, and it got to a point where I was protecting my children, you know, and I just felt like I was really conditioned to stay. And, you know, I would talk to the leaders because they say, talk to church leaders and they'll help you, you know, so go to counseling with your bishop. A lot of bishops don't get, aren't trained to be counselors. It's a calling, you know, I mean, would you say that bishops get marriage counseling?

John Dehlin [02:10:15] No.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:10:15] Yeah, no go the bishop, you know, and what does the bishop say? Okay, we'll pray. Pray about it.

John Dehlin [02:10:23] You know, scriptures.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:10:24] Read your scriptures. Pray about it.

Carah Burrell [02:10:27] Like the ultimate healing will come by having pursuing a relationship with Jesus Christ. And go to the temple. Yeah, that, yeah, go to the temple. That secular healing is okay. But why would the church ever want to outsource other forms of healing when they're supposed to be the fountain of it? Right, Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:10:45] Happiness. The gospel of Jesus Christ is marriage therapy.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:10:49] Marriage therapy, right. We actually had. My mom and my third stepdad did go to counseling at one point, but they were referred to a church counselor. Like, there was a marriage counselor in our area who was lds. So they referred to this LDS counselor. So still control, you know, And.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:11:06] But even with all of that, it just encouraged me to cling harder to the gospel, you know, I got my baby blessed. Evie was blessed. Oh, my God. That was such a big moment for me, you know, because the church teaches us. Here's probably one of the most toxic messages. I think if you stick it out with this marriage, I was told this, you will find someone more righteous in the next life.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:11:32] So even if my husband, you know, was doing things, I would still get someone better in the next life because, you know, patience of job, you know, good example. And so I was raising my children to be righteous, you know, and someone out there, well, I would find somebody in the next life. I just had to get through this life with my husband. And that's another reason why I stayed was because it was encouraged by the church. You know,

John Dehlin [02:12:05] as someone who's the child of a divorce, also, you don't want to repeat the divorce. So there's just this idea. Well, the church says divorce is bad and evil, generally speaking. But also, you don't want to be your mom or dad. So you often, if you are in something that's abusive, there's maybe an incentive to stay with it.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:12:24] Right.

John Dehlin [02:12:24] Just to not repeat.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:12:25] Exactly. I didn't want to get divorced. My mom was married three times. I never knew my biological father, you know, and I didn't want to put my kids through that because it was always so traumatic. When she got divorced or she would move out, we would move out of my first. Out of the house constantly, like, I'm leaving. We're never going together. We pack up our stuff and leave. I don't want to do that to my kids, you know, because it was so traumatic.

John Dehlin [02:12:48] And why did the blessing make you emotional, talking about the blessing?

Kelceymarie Warner [02:12:52] Because it meant that I was doing something right. Everything was falling apart.

John Dehlin [02:12:56] Heart.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:12:56] I got this, right? I got this beautiful baby, half children, commitment, you know, And I was raising her in the church, and the blessing was her very first. Because you have your three white dresses, right? And you know that poem from when we were kids, three white dresses, where it's like, you have your baby blessing dressed, your baptismal dress, and then your wedding endowment, you know, And I was raising this person like I was supposed to, you know, I was doing what I was supposed to. And she was going to have a good life because in the very beginning, she had the. This, you know, and again, eternal families.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:13:28] I love my children so much. You know, just thinking I love them makes me cry, you know, and the idea that she'll be mine forever because I was doing what I was supposed to, even if my ex husband wasn't, she'd be my kid forever, you know, in your life experiences. Sorry.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:13:46] Life experiences had already taught me that so much was temporary. Any moment, a piano can fall out of the sky and, like, your life's changed. Right. But at the end of the day, no matter what happened, Evie was my baby. And that was part of why also, I stayed the church so long.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:14:04] I was afraid, what if I was wrong about thinking the church was wrong? What if. And I lost this incredible thing. This only thing I had right in my life was my children. And it was gone forever because I doubted, you know, so that was embarrassing.

John Dehlin [02:14:25] It's a real binding force. Kids become this real binding force.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:14:29] Absolutely.

Carah Burrell [02:14:30] Going back to what you're saying earlier, John, right? About, like, the church knows that the youth going to byu, having kids, that's the highest demographic. If you can get people to have kids early, they need that. That. It's not necessarily your testimony that, you know, this church is true for sure. There's also all these other layered things that feed into why you're attending, why you're participating into the church. And I think that's like a perfect example of, like, mother to mother girl. Like, you just. You're so conditioned to. This is your role. This is your place. These kids can only be yours for eternity. Where else are you gonna go? Did you also have those kind of messages as well? Of like, well, where else would I go?

John Dehlin [02:15:04] Right.

Carah Burrell [02:15:04] If I leave this marriage or leave this church?

John Dehlin [02:15:07] Yeah. And what's complicated is, on the one hand, and so you come from an abusive background and your mom is, you know, tumultuous life. But there's this idea of going from abuser to abuser, and you can do that. You know, maybe your mom had that experience or others have had that experience, but the church can, like you say, take on an abusive role in the sense that they make you feel safer, they make you feel comfortable, at least temporarily, but then they send you that message that you can't be healthy or happy without them. And that you can't raise healthy or happy kids without them.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:15:41] Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:15:41] And that's not true. But it feels true, especially when you come from something unsafe.

Carah Burrell [02:15:47] Right.

John Dehlin [02:15:48] Or. Or that was originally sad.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:15:50] I agree. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:15:53] So it's a binding force whether it's healthy for you or not.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:15:55] Right. So in the long term, the church was very toxic for me just because I stayed in that situation for so long, you know, because of influence from the church and then just fear of destroying my eternal family, you know.

John Dehlin [02:16:10] Who wants to do that? I'm sorry, who wants to do that?

Kelceymarie Warner [02:16:13] Yeah. No, not me.

John Dehlin [02:16:14] How are you going to raise these kids without a righteous priesthood hold?

Kelceymarie Warner [02:16:17] Right.

John Dehlin [02:16:18] Who's going to want you if you get divorced in.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:16:21] Right. Oh my gosh, I was so embarrassed, you know, cuz, I mean, I was already on my way out of the church and I remember your first marriage. Yes, I was.

Leaving the Church and Escaping a Difficult Marriage

John Dehlin [02:16:30] Well, let's get to that. So how did that, how did that happen?

Kelceymarie Warner [02:16:33] So I had been kind of pushing back these negative church experiences. When I was married, the most prominent memory in my head of patriarchy issues was I had just gotten married and the bishop had asked me to give a talk in church.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:16:47] Believe it or not, I don't love public speaking. Although I have a social platform. It's not the same as me speaking in front of podium because I don't really see people. There's just two people in this room right now. But I said I was not going to give a talk in church and.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:17:01] But I do need my temple recommend renewed. Can you renew my recommend? Because we're right here right now, you know. And he's like, actually, Kelsey, I'm not going to renew your recommend. And I was like, why? He's like, yeah, not unless you give a talk in church. And I was like, whoa. Yeah. And for people who aren't familiar, the temple recommend is your ticket to heaven. It is your worthiness. You know, you're doing all these things. You have the interview. Without that ticket, you cannot get into the temple, which I equated with getting into the celestial kingdom. If I die tomorrow, I don't have temple recommend.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:17:38] You know, that's how strongly I felt, because that's what we're taught, you know. And I said, on what grounds? I haven't done anything wrong. And they said, well, you're not honoring and obeying your priesthood holders. And I was like, what? And I was like, I've never been asked until recommend if I've been honor and obey my priesthood holders. He's like, oh, yeah? It's on there. I'm like, I've been interviewed, like, every six months. And I was like, 12. Okay, that is not in there. Like, I can show you. I'm like, okay, show me. And he didn't pull out the book, you know, And I just walked.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:18:08] He wouldn't pull out the book. I just walked away. And I was like, I was so mad because how dare you rest my eternal salvation on a talk. You know, it goes back to how naive I was to think that that's how it worked. But, you know, I did. And so I was furious. Like, how dare you talk to me that way? You know, it's my eternal life.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:18:28] And I told my ex husband. My ex husband was angry, and he talked to the stake president, and the stake president talked to the bishop. And the bishop pulled me aside on the following Sunday into, like, this tiny classroom. He's like, kelsey, I want you to know that I love you so much. I just think you are this incredible person, and I'm sorry I made you feel that way. I was just joking with you and I.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:18:48] Okay, Bishop, you know, like, what am I gonna say? You know, like, he pulls you into this room, this, you know, this huge guy alone. He's, like, talking to you. Like, it felt like gaslighting.

Carah Burrell [02:18:59] I was about to say, it feels

Kelceymarie Warner [02:19:00] like gaslighting, you know, because it just downplayed what I experienced. I was just joking. I didn't mean it that way. You know, I'm sorry you just found you.

John Dehlin [02:19:08] You just couldn't take a joke.

Carah Burrell [02:19:09] You misinterpreted it.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:19:10] Exactly. I'm sorry you took it that way. Yeah. And it was just like, what do I even say? In this closet of a room. Okay, Bishop. Thanks, Bishop. And I left, you know, like. Yeah. And so for me, that was like, for one, I'm not honoring and obeying anybody, okay? I'm a grown woman. I may do what I want. You know, I don't even listen to my husband because he's an idiot. I would listen to you, you know, and so that was like my huge patriarchal, like, a rift in how I saw the patriarchy for me. And then from there on, I had all those issues with my husband, and the church kept telling me, pray, pray, pray, you know? And so I kind of started separating that way. And around this time also, gay marriage was legalized across the nation.

John Dehlin [02:19:54] 15, 20, 15.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:19:55] Yes. And I was really happy. But then I felt guilty for being happy. I'm like, oh, so cool. Wait, it's bad. I don't support That I did, you know, I was just like at war with myself. So I slowly drifted away because of that.

John Dehlin [02:20:08] Why were you supportive of it? Because you had experienced same sex attraction or.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:20:11] Yes. And because if we're all created equal, how can love be a bad thing? If you're being good to each other, why is that bad? You know, you're old enough to consent, why is it bad? You know, and so I couldn't rationalize that part, you know, like, how is this a bad thing? But I told myself, I did, simply because we're told. If you don't know it now, you'll learn it in the next life. Life, it'll make sense eventually. And a phrase I was taught a lot was milk before meat, meaning babies drink milk. Milk grown ups drink each meat. Sorry. And so basically the little things now someday the big things will make sense.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:20:48] So even if it doesn't make sense to you, it's okay, go with it, you know. And so I was faithful up until 2007, 2016, when I was pregnant with. Sorry, 2018, I was pregnant with my youngest child, Ayla, and I was very, very sick. I was on bed rest.

John Dehlin [02:21:09] This is your third child in six years, right?

Kelceymarie Warner [02:21:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:21:12] That's a lot of kids in a short amount of time.

Carah Burrell [02:21:14] It was.

John Dehlin [02:21:14] Especially for a marriage that isn't great, right?

Carah Burrell [02:21:16] Yeah.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:21:17] Mormon baby machine over here, you know, because that's. We're taught, keep having kids, keep smiling, it'll be okay, you know, and. And so 2018, five and a half, almost six years in the marriage, I was very sick with Ayla and I was on bed rest and I didn't go to church for those months because I couldn't, you know, I couldn't miscarry. And so I realized I didn't miss it. You know, I started, you know, I didn't. I started engaging more with my Jack Mormon friends, you know, and. Yeah, and then when Ayla was born, I just stopped going all together. And that was also a very hard time, simply because she was my only child who did not get a blessing, a baby blessing. And like I agonized.

John Dehlin [02:22:04] Your husband didn't want one or.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:22:07] Because he had already left the church. Okay, so he left first.

John Dehlin [02:22:11] Did that influence you?

Kelceymarie Warner [02:22:12] Not really.

John Dehlin [02:22:13] Was there a reason why he did that? You knew?

Kelceymarie Warner [02:22:18] I don't really know. I never asked. I think maybe he was active only because I was active in the beginning, because he wanted to marry me and impress me. And after we got married, though, it was like a hassle bringing him to church on Sundays. So I think he just put up a front so he could marry me because I was very Mormon, you know. And so he just started drinking and just doing normal stuff, I guess, actually. But it was hard for me as an LDS wife, you know, because I was taught that it was a bad thing, you know.

John Dehlin [02:22:45] Weren't you freaking out that your righteous priesthood holder was leaving the church?

Kelceymarie Warner [02:22:48] Yeah, it did made me sad. I cried a lot and I thought if I just keep dragging the church, you know, if I keep doing a script study next to him, it'll, it'll sink in, you know. And then as the abuse grew, my concern about his involvement in the church, I didn't, shouldn't care anymore. I'm like, you know what? Someday I will have someone good, you know, Even if it's not you, I'm whatever, you know, which is really toxic I guess, you know, I don't know,

John Dehlin [02:23:14] living for death, basically.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:23:16] Basically, yeah. And I was like I said, very depressed. So Ayla was my only child that wasn't blessed and that was hard for me. Even though I had like pretty much left the church and I was like drinking sometimes recreationally with friends or family.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:23:33] I felt guilty, like what if in. You know, and my mom said something, she's like, like oh, Kelsey. Because my mom was in her pagan phase and she was like, kelsey, we can just take her out. Yeah, another story.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:23:45] We can take her out and we can bless her in the woods. And I was like, that feels weird. Now I'm realizing how weird the church is. I'm good. That's good. You know, it was just not saying that paganism is. People can do whatever they want. They would do it, you know, do what you want. But for me it felt weird and so I wasn't going to do that. And it made me realize how weird it was that I felt like my children had had to be blessed to get all the blessings, you know. And so with all of that leaving the church stuff going on during that period, my ex husband and I took a four month break when I was pregnant and I'd actually decided that I was going to get divorced and then

John Dehlin [02:24:26] break from each other.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:24:26] Break from each other. Because we had so many issues.

John Dehlin [02:24:29] Yes.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:24:30] Separated while we were. Yeah. Still married because I was told you just take a separation and then you get back together. Since a lot of times they, they said when people separate, they realize how much they love each other and they miss each other and they back together, you know. And so not always, not always, you know, so the issues we had, you Know, we struggled because without. With the alcohol, he kind of. I'm not. He's not an alcoholic, but he overindulges, you know, he'd be so drunk, he'd be like falling over, you know.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:25:00] We had some issues with consent involving alcohol, you know, just because of how I was bringing. I guess that's what I'm telling myself, you know. And we also had issues with him leaving the church. I felt like he kind of pulled away even farther from what good fathers are, you know, the church pushes like what good fathers should do. It's just moral behavior, honestly. And we had issue, like domestic violence increased. You know, him, he'd get mad and relics. One day I brought Addie home. Addie was like my second child. She was two weeks old and Evie was two years old. And she ran across the floor and she tripped over Addie.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:25:37] And I like, oh my God, she tripped over the baby. You know, maybe it could be her, I don't know. And he got mad at Evie, who was too like this big, and he threw his wallet across her when it hit her in the head and she fell over, you know, And I was just like. So as he left the church, his morals kind of left more as well too, you know.

Carah Burrell [02:25:55] And what was going on with him? If I can like ask, is there like that you look back at your conditioning. Do you look back at his conditioning as well, that his childhood and the way that he was raised that. Do you give him like credits for it or that that was normalized in his home or where do you think he was getting these behaviors?

Kelceymarie Warner [02:26:14] I don't know a whole lot about his childhood. Just because his family is very LDS generational pioneer stock, you know, and they have that front, everything's okay, but none of. Almost none of the kids are doing okay, you know, Like, I know that their dad is very authoritarian. He's definitely the patriarch of the family, his way. His mom is a very nice woman. I have a lot of love and respect for Misty. We're not close anymore, of course, because I loved her son, but she's very quiet and very reserved and just kind of goes long, at least on the outside. What I see with what her husband says, you know, and so I think that kind of put in his head that I needed to be a submissive wife.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:26:50] He saw that his home. His dad was always in charge. And I am told by his youngest sister that his dad was heavy handed when they were kids. My ex never said that, but I never really asked either, you know.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:27:05] So I think that There's a lot of control issues because of his parents as well. So there was definitely a generational abuse cycles because of that. I don't know if they had domestic violence in the home or not, but giving him some credit, it was learned, I think, and reinforced by the church.

Carah Burrell [02:27:20] By the church? Yeah. Yeah. A few different factors like that. And just like we were talking about earlier, that if you don't have a good model A and then if B, you know, being a Christ centered home will solve any problem and then suddenly you don't have Christ. It's not necessarily that you lost the spirit in your home and then all of a sudden your husband becomes an extra asshole. There's again so many layered issues there that the church just simply can't fix. That need to be addressed by a professional.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:27:46] Right, like exactly. Yeah. Okay.

John Dehlin [02:27:51] So you get separated.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:27:52] Yes. Okay. So when I was pregnant with Ayla, I separated because we got in some kind of huge fight. I was just over it, you know. And he was going away for training for work and I was like, you know what? During this time frame you can go live with your brother while you're in town. I was already paying bills, we had issues with finances because how we spent money. And then he went to work training and then during that next four months I got incredibly sick. I've had preeclampsia with my first two kids. I don't know if you're familiar with preeclampsia. And so we almost lost both of them and then I was in bed rest and of course who comes in white night when I'm at my lowest?

Kelceymarie Warner [02:28:30] Like he, you know, that's what he does honestly and saves the day. So I'm okay. Our third kid, you're helping out. We can try, you know. And then who's this? My ex husband. Okay, sorry.

John Dehlin [02:28:43] Yeah, he comes in and saves the day.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:28:44] Comes in and saves the day after his work training because I was very sick and he came in, he was doing dishes now he was playing with the babies, now he was changing diapers of all things, you know.

John Dehlin [02:28:53] And she's a new man.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:28:56] He's a new man for the upteenth time. And after I had Ayla, I found out that he was having an affair with his co worker. And that was just like, okay, I'm done, you know. And as soon as like with that conversation happened and I said, you know, I'm gonna go to the gym, I'm gonna go to the gym and when I come home we can talk about this. I went to the gym. And I opened up Facebook Marketplace and I found the first townhouse I could message them saying hi random, here's my situation. I have no credit, but I do have money and I can show you my bank statements. You know, I'm taking care of us, I'm, I'm getting out. And the next day they said absolutely, we understand, these things happen. Forget the credit check, you can move in and Incredible.

Carah Burrell [02:29:41] Wow.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:29:41] It was amazing, you know, because you knew usually you have like credit checks to get cold days to get back apartments, you know. My dad gave me the money for a first and last month's rent and I moved out that Monday.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:29:52] And it was kind of a traumatic period, scary period, simply because there were random spurts of violent acts in the home. And so I was a little worried. Also at the same time there was this news story that was like rocking the country of the man who had killed his wife and children in Colorado. I don't know if you remember that, Chris. Something I can't remember. Anyways, my mom decided that that was going to be me and so she basically said that she had to stay in the house with me. So she, my brothers and sisters stayed in our two bedroom apartment over the weekend.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:30:25] So my, because she was convinced my ex husband was going to kill us and I, I don't know what would have happened. I don't think he would have killed us. I can see him being like violent by canceling, hurting us. I don't, I don't know. Anyways, Monday I moved out and our lives changed drastically because this was the first time in my life that I wasn't being controlled in every aspect because early childhood trauma, lots of control, religious,

John Dehlin [02:30:49] high school, early adulthood, family, then church, then first husband.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:30:52] Exactly. And then I walked into this place and I was like what I felt in the temple was what I felt in my new home. It was peace. That was it. You know, it was like this magical spiritual moment because it was a temple. It's because it was the only place in my life that didn't have conflict, you know. And so my happiest memories are 24, 25 years old, living in a three bedroom apartment that I paid for with my three small children, with my six month old baby and then just falling back in love with myself.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:31:22] Allowing myself to work out the gym in a crop top with a big deal, you know. You know, allowing myself, you know, the indulgence of wine when the kids went to bed. It was just finding out who Kelsey was when she wasn't being controlled in every way by, you know, an organization, by her parents, by her ex husband, you know. And I started to slowly fall in love with myself at that point. You know, you have to like learn who you are, date yourself and become who you were meant to be, you know.

John Dehlin [02:31:56] I love this.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:31:57] Oh yeah. So like I can text you pictures. I don't even look like the same person at all. Like just like completely different person.

Carah Burrell [02:32:05] The exmo glow.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:32:06] The eczema glow.

Carah Burrell [02:32:07] Yeah. Afterwards. Right, right.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:32:09] There's a, an Instagram from like post Mormon stories. It's very similar to what you guys have. I forget what it's called, but they actually featured me on their account and it was like, you know, before and after or something and I just, you know how my life is and I'm

John Dehlin [02:32:20] just like, is it lifestyle after Mormonism?

Kelceymarie Warner [02:32:23] Yeah, yeah. When they first created their account. Yeah, it was super cool.

John Dehlin [02:32:27] Yeah, yeah. I'll just like, like we get back to this kind of cult. I don't want to say the personality, adopting the church's personality. If, if you're on, if you're you sometimes within high demand religions, you never get a chance to get to know yourself and to develop your own personality because it's child to Mormon teen to mission to BYU to quick marriage to. Then you're on the train.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:32:52] Right.

John Dehlin [02:32:53] And Margi had to go through this. Like there was a point in my marriage and Margi's what, 45. 44. 45. Where she just, she actually kicked me out of the house for a couple months. Oh yeah. And it wasn't because I. This case, it wasn't because I'd done anything. It was because her life had always been me or her parents or whatever. She needed some time to discover who she was. And there's so many women in the church and men, but women who just never get the chance to ever discover who they are.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:33:24] Right.

John Dehlin [02:33:24] Find out what makes them happy, find out what makes them tick, find out what turns them on.

Carah Burrell [02:33:28] Right.

John Dehlin [02:33:28] And develop their own intrinsic personality. And as sad as it would have been for you to get divorced, go through an abusive marriage, you got to have that experience at what age?

Kelceymarie Warner [02:33:40] I was almost 25, which is earlier

John Dehlin [02:33:42] than most Mormon women do. If they ever get the chance. Right. It was so weird. What, what was your worst nightmare became a huge blessing to you, right?

Kelceymarie Warner [02:33:52] Absolutely. It was freeing because I was no longer worried about losing my children and the eternal family concept. You know, I was no longer afraid that if I wasn't good enough that I wouldn't have my children forever. You know, when in reality there's comfort in knowing that I don't know what's after this, you know, But I know that it's not some God that's gonna say, you can't have your children because you had coffee this morning. Cause he goes, who does that? I wouldn't do that. Why would a perfect being do that? You know, doesn't make any sense. And I feel like I'm still finding out who I am. I think that's normal. You know, most people in their 20s, I'm like, okay, I'm 27 now. But at 25, how many people actually know who they are? There's. You're still finding yourself in your 20s.

John Dehlin [02:34:34] You know, your brain just, you know, reaches maturity by 25.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:34:38] There you go.

John Dehlin [02:34:39] You know, your brain's not even fully formed yet.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:34:41] Right. You know, oh, my gosh. I just. I feel like I'm still figuring out who I am because do I have this opinion or do I have it because I was taught to have this opinion? Oh, let's explore that.

John Dehlin [02:34:50] This, you know, parents was at church.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:34:53] What was it exactly? You know, And I, like, even the way I look is different simply because I felt like I had to meet a certain standard. If you think about Utah, Mormons, girls, what do you think? Long blonde hair and extensions, you know, like on Tik Tok. Long blonde hair.

Carah Burrell [02:35:09] I'm trying to become one of the. Spoiled my cover. Oh, no. Yeah.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:35:13] No, I'm just saying, like, I felt like I had to look certain way, you know, be like, so. Or dress a certain way. But now, like, I dress the way I want to, you know, anything. Also, that goes back to mental health and my family as well, because my mom also push a certain body type and a certain image as well. And so, along with the deconstructing of Mormonism, also deconstructing my own childhood. Like, am I blonde? I want to be blonde. Or my blonde. My mom said I had to be blonde. And because this Mormon guy at BYUI said that guys like blondes, you know, like, you know, so, yeah, music, movies, everything. Like, the world is open to you. Suddenly you can watch anything. You can, like, read anything. Oh, my God, I can say any word I want, you know, so it's. It's freeing.

John Dehlin [02:35:57] And I also just want to add, just to drive this point home, you're also doing the thing that, from the church's standpoint, is the worst thing you can do. Ending your marriage and then, like, not living the gospel and then getting off the train, getting off The Mormon train and getting on the Kelsey train.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:36:14] Right, right, exactly.

John Dehlin [02:36:15] And from the church's standpoint, you're literally doing the worst thing. I'm an apostate, but it actually happens to be the absolute best thing for you.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:36:25] The best thing was it. Absolutely. My life has never been better. Like, it was never better than this. And I know that I'm told that it's not supposed to be. I'm gonna wake up in 20 years and regret it all or something, but

Carah Burrell [02:36:38] I'm not that there's no true happiness outside of the gospel. And like, all of those messages that you get about happy families and sounds like you did everything that you're supposed to do at BYU and taking the classes and learning as much as you could.

John Dehlin [02:36:51] How'd that work out for you?

Kelceymarie Warner [02:36:52] Not very well. But I have three beautiful children, you know? Right, right. Yeah. But no, I agree, definitely. They say that there's not no happiness after this, but there's a whole world of happiness. So much joy that I could not even comprehend. You know, it's just been an incredible journey.

Faith Deconstruction and Finding a New Path

John Dehlin [02:37:10] And there's few things that I want to really call evil because I just got words thrown around way too loosely, especially at me these days. But one Mormon teaching that I think is evil is you can't be happy without me, and your kids can't be healthy and happy without me.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:37:27] Right.

John Dehlin [02:37:28] Because, number one, that's what abuse. That's what abusers say. Number two, it's not true. And number three, sometimes the opposite is true for some people. I'll grant it for some people, maybe their optimum health and happiness is within Mormonism. Fine. But there are plenty of people where their optimum health and where the church is actually damaging and toxic to them, and their only health and happiness is when they leave, figure out who they are, and then individuate and live a healthy, happy life.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:37:59] Right.

John Dehlin [02:38:00] So for those three reasons, in my view, that's an evil message. And I'm so happy you were able to get out.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:38:08] Right. I agree. And I like how you compare it to an abusive relationship. What are you without me? I think that's perfect. Spot on. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:38:15] Yeah. But it's also got to be scary that you're, like, getting off the train now. You're going to become your mom. In your mind, you probably have a thing. I'm going to become my mom. My family's going to become a mess.

Carah Burrell [02:38:28] Right.

John Dehlin [02:38:28] And what about drinking and what about tattoos and what about drugs and what about sex and what about dating and, oh, my Goodness. And. And financially, how am I gonna support myself? Like, how did you. Let's talk about that. How did you become a confident, healthy, successful influencer? You're not just like. Like, getting your stuff together. You're helping other people get their stuff together. How'd you do that in two years? Because this is only two years ago. Yeah.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:38:54] That's crazy. Yeah, it was 2,020. Yeah. The end of 2018. So 2019, my divorce was finalized. So that was the first big step for me with getting my mental health back, was leaving the church, because suddenly all that guilt was gone. You know, now I just had the family trauma to dig through, but the religious trauma's gone on. Sorry. And I swear to God. God, that I was never gonna date again because, like, as soon as you are an attractive single woman on Instagram, your DMS are exploding.

Carah Burrell [02:39:27] Right?

Kelceymarie Warner [02:39:28] You know, and what.

John Dehlin [02:39:29] Right?

Carah Burrell [02:39:30] I just found out I'm not attractive. Right?

Kelceymarie Warner [02:39:33] Oh, my gosh. Well, actually lost a lot of weight very quickly because this goes back to eds, actually. Keto was the thing when I had my. My last child.

John Dehlin [02:39:44] Eds. Eating disorders.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:39:45] Eating disorders. I'm sorry. Eating disorders. Yeah, Keto. And so the message pushed by my parents was if I was overweight, my parents, my mom, I wouldn't be attractive, right? So I couldn't find someone better than my ex if I wasn't skinny, right? And so when I was with my ex husband, I wasn't allowed to be skinny. So he had a baby. And of course you're overweight, you know, because you had a baby. And I could never lose weight simply because if I even tried, he would accuse me of having. Having an affair, you know, so trying to take care of myself in any way caused serious marital problems.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:40:17] And so when I had ayla, I was 180 pounds, and I decided that I wasn't gonna be that person anymore for when I wanted to be healthy and happy, you know? And what does healthy look like for me? To my mind, it's a healthy bmi, you know, and feeling confident in your own body, maybe going for a jog or something, thing. But at the time, I felt like I had to reach a certain number, which was reinforced by my mom, who was very.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:40:44] We were very close at the time, simply because I needed help. And she can also be a good sounding board. You know, we kind of did that for each other. Like, I would talk about my husband, she talking about her, my stepdad, blah, blah, blah. And so anyways, I threw myself into keto, and she encouraged me to do intermittent fasting. Are you familiar with that?

John Dehlin [02:41:02] Okay, so tell our listeners here.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:41:04] Okay, so intermittent fasting is when you don't eat for a certain amount of hours a day. The idea is that, for one, we eat too much as a society. We don't eat, don't need to eat as much as we do. It gives your digestive tract a break, and it also helps you regulate your. Your hunger signals. Right. So maybe you don't have to eat all the time. Your brain just is wired to think it needs sugar at 9am or something.

John Dehlin [02:41:29] Right.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:41:30] So there is really interesting science behind it.

John Dehlin [02:41:32] I'm also told that there's this point where there's a certain number of hours after you've eaten where the fat burning really begins.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:41:40] Yes. You go into ketosis.

John Dehlin [02:41:41] Yeah. So if you have longer periods between meals and kind of bunch up your meals, let's just say you eat lunch and then an early dinner, and you have two meals, but it's at 12 and at 4, then all that time between, let's just say 7pm and then 10am the next morning, you're burning fat.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:42:03] Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:42:03] Is that right?

Kelceymarie Warner [02:42:04] Yes, definitely. Your body goes into ketosis, you know, produces more ketones and it burns fat, which is phenomenal for losing weight, obviously. And then if you go even longer, your body goes into a phase of autophagy where it actually starts repairing cells. And there have been some studies that show that patients who do extended fasting who have cancer, it can diminish some cancer cells. It's pretty cool research, but I'm starting

John Dehlin [02:42:28] to get worried that you're like your mom where you're fasting, but.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:42:30] But I'll get there. But the issue is, if you struggle with an eating disorder, you're not supposed to be fasting because it's triggering and it becomes restrictive eating, which is exactly what happened to me. And so I didn't really acknowledge that there was an eating disorder. Like, it was kind of there, but I had something kind of pushed aside, you know, like, oh, I have anxiety, whatever, you know, and so what I would do, even though I was breastfeeding and you're not supposed to fast while you're breastfeeding. I would go 24 hours at eating. I would eat every day at 6pm and it would be a low carb meal.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:43:05] So the thing about keto is that your, your proteins and your carbs and your fats are adjusted for your height weight, like goal weight loss. So, you know, my carb goal for the day was like 15 carbohydrates and for Atkins, it's supposed to be 20. Most people eat like way more than that in a day. And I lost a lot of weight, really, from 180 pounds to 130 pounds. So that's 60 pounds lost in four months.

John Dehlin [02:43:32] While nursing.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:43:33] While nursing. I wasn't worried about the baby just because Ayla was reaching all her milestones. She was gaining weight normally. So she. As far as I know, she didn't have any affection. God, I hope not. But I lost weight very quickly and it became a thing. Like, how long can I go without eating? Can I. Can I fast for two days? Can I fast for three days? You know, my mom. In my head, you know, I was behind my mother in that way. And so there's my eating disorder in my 20s, I didn't even know that's what it was because it was no longer help healthy. You know, there's. Fasting can be healthy, but if you have an eating disorder, you know. And so when I met my husband, I. Wait, how do we go from fasting to eating disorders? I'm. I feel like I'm all over the place. I'm sorry.

John Dehlin [02:44:26] No, no, no. I mean, we're talking about getting healthy, about, you know.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:44:31] Okay, I'm sorry. So I felt like I had to be skinny to be good and enough, you know. So I met my husband in February, which is like really fast. So my. My ex husband and I got divorced in January. But we had. For me, the marriage had already been over for so long, I didn't feel like it was a big leap. We'd separated in October, so we separated for four months. Divorce finalized at the end of January of 2019. And that's when I met my husband John on Instagram. And I promised myself I was never checking my Instagram DMS again because I'm so freaking tired of guys studying my DMs, like, sup? You know, and it was just.

John Dehlin [02:45:07] Oh.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:45:08] And so, like, I just happened to check my DMs, totally distracted. And I opened one. The person said, hi, and I said, hi. I'm like, damn it. I dropped my phone and walked away. Like, I cannot believe I replied, other stupid fuck boy. You know, he's not that at all. But, you know, that's basically what most of them were. And so.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:45:24] But we just. We hit off like from the very beginning. He was like, funny. And we talked until 4am that night. But what made my relationship different with John than it was with Colton was how slow things went in our relationship. We just talked, you Know, and I, we dated probably like two or three weeks and then we had sex.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:45:50] If he's watching, he's probably so embarrassed. I'm sorry, babe. And you know, but I didn't feel guilty because I thought I would feel guilty because the church conditioning, you know, Know, but I didn't. Just because I didn't believe it anymore. And that was so freeing that I could have free will of my body, I could do things when I wanted to. The way I wanted to, as often as I wanted to is not, you know, and that was incredible. That was something I didn't have in the church because I was taught that it wasn't okay, you know, and so I probably didn't reach that, you know, awakening until my mid-20s, which is really sad, you know, and also.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:46:26] And awesome, you know, it was incredible. Just become who I am. And I already kind of started drinking while I was still LDS and you know, just like, you know, a little bit here and there. I was never like a party person because I had kids, you know, and then tattoos weren't a big leap for me just because my parents have tattoos. This was like a no brainer.

John Dehlin [02:46:45] Why'd you want it?

Kelceymarie Warner [02:46:46] It's pretty.

John Dehlin [02:46:48] Show the audience.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:46:49] Okay. Oh, right here. Sorry. So I like flowers. Nature is my coping skill. I go hiking, I go for walks, I meditate.

John Dehlin [02:46:58] That's healthy coping.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:46:58] It's healthy coping. You know, in another life, I feel like I could have been like living in a van in the mountains. That'd be me, you know, just being a hippie. I don't know. But this was a no brainer simply because all of my stepdads, I think, and my mom had tattoos, so. And they got tattoos while they were lds. This wasn't hard for me, trying to think if anything was hard because once I left, I left, like, same thing, my marriage. When I was gone, I was gone.

John Dehlin [02:47:24] You know, what about losing your faith? Like, just like, oh my gosh, the church isn't true. Was there anything about Joseph Smith or Book of Mormon or Book of Abraham or truth claims or polygamy or basing

Carah Burrell [02:47:37] your life on a lie? Going through that trauma of. Did you have to like dive into church history and have a, like an awakening of like, oh, yeah, intellectual proper processing?

Kelceymarie Warner [02:47:49] Well, I didn't really dive into this. I didn't read the CES letter until after I'm records removed. So for me, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:47:55] Why did you have your records removed?

Kelceymarie Warner [02:47:57] I just didn't believe it anymore. I realized that I didn't actually believe that it was bad to be bisexual. Technically, I'm pansexual. That means that if my husband wakes up tomorrow, wants to be a girl, I'll still think he's hot and love him, you know, so. So technically pansexual. I don't. I don't think that's bad. And I didn't think I should keep lying to myself about that, you know, So I stopped believing that it was bad for it to be LGBTQ supporter and to feel this way. And I also stopped believing that alcohol was a sin. And so once you realize you just don't believe something.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:48:27] It didn't even matter about church history anymore because it just didn't matter. I was like, I don't believe it, you know? And I don't know that I had this aha moment. I think it was just a slow, gradual thing. So by the time I felt ready to have my records removed, it didn't hurt. It was just, okay, that part of my life's over, you know?

John Dehlin [02:48:48] Wow. I mean that for so many of us, it's this huge, traumatic, earth shattering that we take years and decades to process. Why do you think it was maybe easier or not as big of a deal for. For you? And you were younger than a lot of us.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:49:05] I was younger. I hadn't invested thousands of dollars because I wasn't consistent with tithe. I think a lot of people have issues because, like, holy crap, I spent like $100,000 in tithing in the last 20 years or something. You know, that's a lot of money. So I didn't invest a whole lot of money. And it was just a gradual, slow thing. And I took my time through the years. It's like disconnecting from my marriage. It was slow and gradual. So when it was over, it was over, over, you know?

John Dehlin [02:49:28] Okay, yeah, it was a long drip.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:49:30] Yeah. But I don't think I realized it was happening. It was just like, oh, I don't believe this. That's okay. I'm a modern Mormon, you know?

John Dehlin [02:49:37] Are you jealous about that, Carah? Like, that's. Is that different from your.

Carah Burrell [02:49:43] Yeah, in a way. I can see what she meant. I feel like if I put myself kind of in your head, I feel like the. The marriage issues there were so inter intertwined. So I wonder how things would have changed if you had a healthy marriage and we're working through, like, the really strong interfaith things where you still needed to stay faithful, you still needed to raise your kids there, and the only piece that was missing was the church. I'm Just kind of curious how that would have played in. But it seemed like they were very, very more intertwined than maybe more of us that don't have to go through, like, an abusive spouse situation maybe.

John Dehlin [02:50:21] Sounds like the marriage and the church declined and failed in parallel.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:50:24] They did. Yeah, they did. And there was a period where, you know, he kind of started drifting away before I did. And that was hard simply because I was still emotionally invested in my relationship. I wanted to have a happy, perfect marriage with this person. So that was hard for a short period, but it wasn't very long. You know, it was heartbreaking in the effect that you have to mourn a dream. You know, you have this image in your head of what your life is going to be. But as you said, it was so intertwined, my marriage and the church, that that break was, you know, the same time, and then from there was like, call it a crack, and then a slow separation, you know.

Carah Burrell [02:51:05] Yeah, yeah. The. The fading away of a dream. I think you articulated that well.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:51:09] Thank you.

Carah Burrell [02:51:10] That they both at the same time. So. Yeah, that's different than a lot of other perspectives. So I'm glad that you shared that. That's interesting. Thanks.

New Relationship and Life After Mormonism

John Dehlin [02:51:20] Okay. So you found kind of what might be a true love, maybe?

Kelceymarie Warner [02:51:26] I think so. We're very happy, you know, you guys got remarried. We did get married. We got married last October.

John Dehlin [02:51:33] Sorry, did you say he was Mormon?

Kelceymarie Warner [02:51:35] He was raised LDS and he sold his records, but he hasn't gone to church.

John Dehlin [02:51:39] You met him where?

Kelceymarie Warner [02:51:40] On Instagram.

John Dehlin [02:51:42] And where were you living, though? I mean.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:51:43] Oh, I live in Mexico. He lived in Idaho.

John Dehlin [02:51:45] Fall. So you were still in Rexburg at the time, huh?

Kelceymarie Warner [02:51:47] Yes, most of my marriage in Rexburg. We kind of bounced back and forth just because of semesters at byui, but most of it was in Rexburg. And when I got divorced, I got divorced in Rexburg. And he just messaged me on Instagram just like, hey. And we started talking, and it was freeing just because suddenly I had the option to do what I wanted. It doesn't make sense. There was no shame. Like, oh, no, don't kiss me. Like, oh, no, don't feel this way about this person.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:52:12] It was okay to go as fast or as slow with anything that I wanted, you know, and that was incredible for me because it was like an awakening moment. And we took it really slow, you know, we dated. We had like one date a week for like, six months, you know, and didn't tell the kids that we were dating. I just like, this is my friend we just hanging out, we're just going to the park, you know, no big deal. Didn't hold hands or anything. I didn't want to be my mom. I didn't want to be constantly bringing men into my kid's life, you know.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:52:38] You know, and so we dated, you know, probably six months before the kids found out. And they only found out because my ex husband got mad and mentioned something about mommy's boyfriend. And the kids are like, mommy has a boyfriend? Like I was so good at hiding it. They didn't know we were together, you know, and then we dated here and then we moved in together because I wasn't ready to get married, he wasn't ready to get married. You know, we loved each other, but that's another mormon. No, no, right. You know, premarital sex and stuff and.

John Dehlin [02:53:05] Or living together.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:53:05] Living together, you know, because I feel like one implies the other, you know,

John Dehlin [02:53:09] and why was that valuable or important?

Kelceymarie Warner [02:53:12] Living together? Yeah, because it gave us a chance to get to know each other. You know, we, when you're dating, you have this honeymoon phase. It's like it's not love bombing, but it's almost like it, you know, you're on your best behavior. You're doing, you know, trying to impress the other person. And when you're living together, you're going to see them, you know, when they're exhausted from work because work sucked, you know, know they're mad at their buddy or something. You see them when they drink, you know, you can't hide who you are when you're living together, you know, and so honestly, I recommend to everybody to live with yourself, with your partner before you get married just because you see who they are.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:53:47] So, you know, we dated for a year and then we lived together for almost a year before we got married, you know, and I feel like that made all the difference because we knew each other really well before we got married, you know,

Carah Burrell [02:54:02] especially when you have kids.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:54:04] Right.

Carah Burrell [02:54:04] And that.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:54:05] Were you ever worried?

Carah Burrell [02:54:07] Just like it sounds like he's a real stand up guy, but did you have any from your first marriage things in the back of your head about, oh, once we get married things are going to change, especially with him coming on as a stepfather.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:54:18] Definitely I was worried because my ex husband, you know, was really great till we got married, like you said. And so I was afraid that things would change eventually. So what I would do. I'm going to sound crazy. Sorry if you're listening. Feel like I would bring him over to the house and he'd play with the kids, you know, I'm gonna go upstairs, the bathroom, you know, And I, like, listen to see how he talks when I wasn't around, you know, Maybe that sounds crazy.

Carah Burrell [02:54:39] It's not crazy. Your kids, man. Do anything for your kids. Put up this hidden camera, whatever you gotta do, right?

Kelceymarie Warner [02:54:44] And so, like, I would, like, sit down, I'd listen, you know, when he didn't think I was listening, you know, he'd babysat the kids for me. I'd walk in quietly so he didn't know I was home, you know, and he'd be reading books for the kids. They'd be calling the table, you know, and when he'd leave, like, oh, what'd you guys see here, Jeff?

John Dehlin [02:54:59] Fun.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:54:59] Not, like interrogating, just, like, casual. Did you have fun? How'd it go? How are you feeling? You know? And that was my way of making sure that he wasn't like my ex husband, that I wasn't like my mother, you know, and that things would progress slowly. And then when we got married, we talked to the kids, like, well, how do you feel about this? You know? Are you okay with this being a permanent thing? You know? And, like, yeah, like, yeah, that they

Carah Burrell [02:55:23] had a relationship and that.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:55:24] Exactly. They have this incredible relationship with John that they don't have. My ex husband because my ex husband will go four months without showing up, you know, And John goes to every game, every baseball game, every doc's appointment.

John Dehlin [02:55:37] Was he married before?

Kelceymarie Warner [02:55:39] No, we're actually four years apart. So when we met, he was 20 and I was 24.

John Dehlin [02:55:43] He was younger.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:55:43] He was very young, you know, and so that was also why we took it slow, because he wasn't ready. He's like, I'm in my 20s, you know, I'm, you know, having a good time. We'll see how this goes, you know? And I wasn't, like, totally emotionally invested in a relationship initially either, because I was like, you know, he's young, young. He's gonna meet the kids. And sure, you've fallen in love with the idea of Kelsey, you know, but once you're there with the tantrums and the diaper changes and we all have the flu at once, you know, like, you're gonna change your mind. And so it took me time to get to that point.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:56:13] I can't really say what it was like for him, just because, you know, I'm not him. But I think he took it slow emotionally, too, just because he likes his space, which is a good thing. He has boundaries. And I feel like having him in the kids lives life has helped the children and myself. It's helped the children because they know what it's like to live with a man who is not patriarch. We definitely are equal in all things. We both do chores, we both do everything, you know, and we discuss things in front of the kids, you know, and they don't see that with their down.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:56:44] They see their dad because their dad tries to assume authority when he's in the room. But John doesn't do that, you know, he's on back burner, but he's just, just, he's normal, you know, and they get to see that with someone and that's amazing for me. And also I'm constantly like whoa. Like, whoa. Like that's. You're not mad? Okay, cool. You know, like I just keep expecting him to behave the way people of my childhood did or the ex husband did just because of the constant trauma. So it's nice to have this one normal person in my life who actually grew up Mormon and somehow got all the good traits of Mormonism. Him, but left the church anyways, you know.

John Dehlin [02:57:20] Do you know why he left?

Kelceymarie Warner [02:57:23] Not really. I mean I've asked him but he just didn't really have a test any testimony anymore. I don't think he had a big break in the shelf either. I think it was just a gradual thing, but I mean, I can't really speak for him. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:57:36] I mean, again, this is another irony of. And I'll just stipulate there could be good Mormons and bad Mormons, good non Mormons and bad non Mormons, like good and bad everywhere.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:57:45] Right.

John Dehlin [02:57:46] How. But, but from a Mormon worldview, how in the world could someone who chose to leave the church by age 20 be a better partner and or parent than somebody who is faithful and raised in the church? Are there advantages or benefits to leaving the church that might make you a better husband and father? I'm putting you on the spot there to, to answer that, but do you have any speculation?

Kelceymarie Warner [02:58:14] I think, I think that could be right. Just because when you leave younger, there's less of a time to be indoctrinated into that authoritarian control approach. You know, head of the household, I sit the head of the table. You know what I say goes?

John Dehlin [02:58:29] Patriarchy, worthiness, shame, punishment.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:58:33] I'm important because I get to be in the bishopric and you can't, you know, so. So I feel like leaving early helps with that, but.

John Dehlin [02:58:41] Or it can help with that.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:58:42] It can't help with that. You know, it didn't help my ex Husband, because my ex husband is four years older than me, so he's 31. And John is actually eight years younger than my ex husband because he's four years younger than me, you know, so even though my ex husband was raised LDS and is older, so therefore should be more mature, you know, he was a completely different person, you know, so the church can spit out to different kinds polar extremes there, I think. And, and I think it also comes down to generational abuse cycles because when my ex husband saw him at home with control, doesn't sound like it exists in the home that my husband John grew up in.

Kelceymarie Warner [02:59:14] I don't know the family very well, but from what I've seen, you know, he didn't have that. You know, his dad is definitely not controlling. You know, his dad's kind and he's gentle like John, you know, great with kids, very genuine. So I think that that comes down to it too. Generational abuse cycles.

TikTok Advocacy for Mental Health and Self-Harm Recovery

John Dehlin [02:59:34] All right, have you guys, have you ever been tempted to try another church or to just be a general Christian or other faith traditions? Is religion still a part of your life or spirituality or are you more secularly inclined?

Kelceymarie Warner [02:59:53] I would say right now I'm probably agnostic. I believe. I feel like there's something. I don't know what it is, but at the same time, if there's nothing, it's okay because I'm not gonna know. I'll be dead, you know, So I play with the idea of being Methodist because my extended family's Methodist and they seem pretty chill. You know, there's Christ and that's cool, but at the same time, do I really believe that Christ was born and died for my sins? Not really. So, you know, I don't really know what I am, but that's okay. I don't give it a whole lot of thought. My thoughts during the day are tick tock journals. My kids crap, there's poop on the floor, you know, so just parenting stuff. I don't really think about it and I'm not really sure what if my husband thinks about either. I'm just living life.

John Dehlin [03:00:37] What's tick tock about my tick tock? Why do you. I mean, why tell us just quickly how you became a tick tocker, why you became a tick tocker and what you do.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:00:48] My mom and I had a major falling out a year or two ago. That was part of my emotional mental health awakening. I already had all these issues. I did not realize how severe they were, how serious the trauma was until that moment. Because there was this Huge fight. And I was just like, wow, you might be crazy, you know.

Carah Burrell [03:01:17] And

Kelceymarie Warner [03:01:19] we stopped talking. And so I. I just like I was looking around and I was like, why are other women so naturally confident? And I'm not. I fake it well, I think, but on the inside I feel like I'm dying of insecurities. Like even now I like anxious, you know, and other people just casual. And I don't feel that way. And so I kind of had to pick apart my childhood. In doing so, I started making tick tocks. And something I started researching was narcissistic parenting. And I was like, holy crap. My mom did that. She did that too. And So I made TikToks just educational, you know, like three science of narcissistic abuse.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:01:55] You know, three signs of depression. And then as I continued Macy making the narcissistic abuse videos, it kind of morphed into depression. And I made one video that was like a viral video just about depression. I can't. It was like three signs of depression. And someone commented saying, yeah, Kelsey, thanks, I know I'm depressed now. What? And I was like, that's a great question.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:02:18] And so I started making coping skill videos and now I have a series on TikTok that is just coping skills. Got over 50 videos. And it's in the perspective of a parent talking to a child. And the reason why I did point of views is because.

John Dehlin [03:02:32] What's point of view?

Kelceymarie Warner [03:02:33] A point of view is.

John Dehlin [03:02:35] It's a form of TikTok video, right?

Kelceymarie Warner [03:02:37] Yes. So the most popular videos on TikTok are like a story mode. So you see like two actors acting out a scene from a movie basically in like 30 seconds.

John Dehlin [03:02:46] It's really the same person playing both roles usually.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:02:49] Exactly.

John Dehlin [03:02:49] Yeah.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:02:50] Yeah. So. And they're very engaging, very entertaining often. And they're very popular. You can have like millions of views. And so I was like, well, this is really popular. And I have a master's degree in education in instructional design. So I'm already kind of geared towards education and of curriculum development. And one of my favorite quotes is, if a child can't learn the way we teach, we should teach the way they learn. Right. So I have excellent resources here. The information is good. I'm just not presenting it in a way that you are going to learn. What is the most popular, proven way to get views on TikTok point of views POVs.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:03:22] And so what I did on a whim wasn't totally invested. I made a point of view where a mom finds her child self harming and what they do about it. And the idea was that it showed the realities of a parent who cared because a lot of people feel like their parents don't care. There's a lot of good parents out there, you know. And so the, the earliest videos are the parents talking through it with their child, then videos with a therapist discussing the parents. And then from then on it's the coping skills. Because what happens after you go to therapy, you have to go home and utilize coping skills.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:03:54] What you're thinking therapist teaches you. Right. And so it became every episode is a new coping skill. I get my information from Cornell University. They have this excellent website just dedicated to self harm. And so I have a PDF and I go through the list and I always use the scholarly resources just so I can. If everyone, if ever anyone comes at me and says, Kelsey, why are you saying these things like scholarly resource right here, you know, you know, I'm covered, you know, and making sure that I'm only giving good information.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:04:24] So I chose self harm just because it's something that I did and it's something that a lot of people do and don't even realize. There's so many ways to self harm and then a lot of people are ashamed of it, but don't even realize. They probably know 10 people that self harm. They just don't even talk about it.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:04:44] You can I meet so many adults that have self harm scars and people don't even realize what they are like, oh, it's probably barbed wire as a kid or something. But it's there. And I'm like, oh, something we have in common, you know, And I think that it's the videos have helped a lot of people feel like they're not alone. My most popular video has 4 million likes. And that was a lot. 4 million likes. Oh, it was a lot.

John Dehlin [03:05:10] And 4 million likes.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:05:12] 4 million likes. That's not even views. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:05:15] So how many views?

Kelceymarie Warner [03:05:16] My phone's right there. I can look later.

Carah Burrell [03:05:18] I don't know, probably at least 20 million.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:05:20] Oh, maybe, I don't know. I didn't bother to check. Yeah. And it was very humbling on the one hand. Wow, does that mean I've helped 4 million people? And then it's very sad because wow, are 4 million people struggling right now. And it's not like just a statistic. It's, it's like right there on my phone, 4 million people went to my page, looked at me and said, oh, smart click. You know, like. And it's just been crazy. And for. I was gaining like 30,000 followers a day. And I was just like, oh my God, that is just mind blowing.

John Dehlin [03:05:58] So now I feel like striking oil. But in terms of helping people, right,

Kelceymarie Warner [03:06:03] like, oh, this is, this is my niche, my niche niche. This is what I'm supposed to do. And it speaks to me because of my own struggles and because I have met so many people. You know, just like parents reach out to me. Like Kelsey, my daughter is doing this, my daughters went to a psych ward. What do I do? You know, I'm the oldest child, I'm 16. My parents do this and I'm self harming. But I'm also taking my brother who's two, I'm like, babe, I gotcha. You know, I get it, you know, and it's just, it's been a very humbling and inspiring.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:06:38] It's also a lot of pressure, you know, so, yeah, pressure, pressure. Because the more people watch my videos, I think the more people forget I'm a real person. I'm a 27 year old woman in a podcast room with you guys. You know, I have feelings, I have a history, you know, and so I get more hate comments and I'll take extended breaks. Just like, I can't do this anymore. You guys are hurting my feelings. You know, I struggle with depression. Back off and so leave me alone. And so the more my videos about

John Dehlin [03:07:11] self harm are making me want to self harm. Right, right.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:07:14] It's terrible. I trigger myself. No, seriously, I trigger myself, you know, and I use my own coping skills. I think most people don't realize that I do use those coping skills just

John Dehlin [03:07:22] because the ones you talk about, the

Kelceymarie Warner [03:07:24] ones I talk about, I do them, you know, just because I do have 27 years of, you know, history. There's domestic violence or sexual abuse, there's emotional abuse. It could have been worse, but it could have been better, you know, and like I said, the more followers I get, the more people forget that there's a real person behind the camera. And so I feel like on the one hand, people just say whatever they want my page just, just to make fun of me, not even realizing I'm a real person. And on the other hand, I feel like there's a lot of pressure to be a good example. Like I can't show that I'm vulnerable. I can't show or talk about these things. You know, there's also a lot of pressure to keep making good content that speaks to people like, oh, you're boring

John Dehlin [03:08:05] now, you know, so, yeah, that's a lot of pressure. Yeah, and what an incredibly inspirational story. Like, I'm just thinking about kind of my Mormon journey. So when I lost my faith in Mormonism and decided I wanted to help people, like, that was 2001. By 2004, iPods and blogs started coming on the scene, and podcasts just got invented.

John Dehlin [03:08:32] And so when I entered kind of the Mormon discussion realm, it was all about blogs. There were Mormon blogs and there were a couple podcasts, but nobody cared about podcasts. There was no Facebook yet. There was no Twitter yet. There's no YouTube yet of any real consequence. And then we kind of helped make podcasts really big, and blogs kind of disappeared, and then Facebook comes. But what I'm. What I'm saying is when I started, it was all these scholars that were blogging, and there was this real elitist quality to writing these huge, massive blogs posts, and they have all these commenters, and the smarter, more degreed elite Ivy League people would weigh in.

John Dehlin [03:09:11] And so there was a real bias in Mormon discourse towards scholarship and history and academic credentials, which I'm not saying is bad. I have a Ph.D. and two master's degrees. I value education. But, you know, one. You know, what I noticed is that podcasts reached more people than blogs did. They were more accessible there. They invoke emotion. So writing is. Can evoke emotion, but it can also be very intellectual. Like, well, here's the source and here's what I learned, and let's debate and let's argue, but that leaves out the voice and the. In the emotion sometimes. So there's something cool in a podcast. What I found is that people are telling stories.

John Dehlin [03:09:54] You're hearing their voice inflection, they're getting emotional, they're crying. None of that stuff comes across necessarily in text, right? So, like, I thought podcasts, you know, it's a. It's a bit less intellectual, but it's more real, it's more human.

Carah Burrell [03:10:07] Right?

John Dehlin [03:10:08] And I think that's why podcasts did so well. But I think, you know, there's this sort of bias in Mormon discourse where podcasts are inferior to scholarship and textual discourse. So. So, like, I. I am really very aware that I am going to have listeners and viewers there, like, oh, why is John into this tick tock TikTok thing? Tick tock is like the worst. It's just like anybody tick tock, it's a minute or less. It's the lowest common denominator. It caters to a lot of unhealthy passions, which it sometimes does. But the main point, I'm Making is there. I'm sure there are biases against. TikTok is like the lowest common denator, common, common denominator level of discourse.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:10:49] Right.

John Dehlin [03:10:50] And there's also something really powerful about it.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:10:54] It.

John Dehlin [03:10:54] There's something powerful about instead of trying to say something in 16 hours or four hours or even one hour, there's this discipline where you've got to say something, you've got a minute to say something.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:11:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:11:07] And there's, you know, you could say that cheap is the discourse, but in some ways it can sharpen the discourse.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:11:12] Gets to the point because you got,

John Dehlin [03:11:14] you got to get to the point and you got to deliver it quick and you've got to entertain. So it's, it's. There's discipline involved in that, but then just what's most important is its impact.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:11:24] Right.

John Dehlin [03:11:25] I've never created anything that's been viewed million or listened to millions of times, ever. Ever. Like, my biggest thing is probably a couple hundred thousand ever.

Carah Burrell [03:11:35] Until we started slicing up these interviews and putting them on TikTok stories podcast. TikTok channel.

John Dehlin [03:11:40] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Carah Burrell [03:11:41] And then we'll have segments of our podcast that will get over a million views on. Because of Tick tock. Because of the reach on TikTok.

John Dehlin [03:11:49] Yeah. So like people that are snooty or people that don't get it. What you don't understand is that, is that there is an effectiveness to the delivery vehicle of keeping it super short that allows people who don't have 12 hours or even an hour, but they've got five minutes on the toilet or in bed or waiting for their kids in a soccer match or whatever, you can reach more people when you shorten it. And there's the discipline of shortening it, and it's where the young people are.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:12:20] Exactly.

John Dehlin [03:12:20] And those are all really important. Like, if you care about impact in your life, making a difference, go to where you're going to make an impact. That's what I'm going to do. If I want to make an impact, I'm going to go where I can make the biggest impact. And that's what TikTok is, and that's what you're doing.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:12:34] I agree 100%. And it's funny because you mentioned a minute. Most videos that go viral are actually under a minute. My most viral videos have been under 20 seconds. So you have to get to the point very quickly and evoke the emotional response. You know, I don't. I cannot intro. I have to go, boom. Here's what's happening. Here's how mom feels. And here is my, my action plan for you. Here's what you need to do. And I think it's very intelligent to do it that way simply because most people don't have the attention span to sit down and read a six page blog, you know, 2,000 words. That's not going to happen for most

John Dehlin [03:13:07] teenagers, let alone a master's thesis or dissertation.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:13:09] That's never going to happen.

John Dehlin [03:13:10] No, it isn't.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:13:11] Yeah, like it's, I mean, most times it's not going to happen. So it's also interesting because I feel like we are conditioned to constantly need stimuli, you know, and so if a movie's too long, we tune out. But with TikTok, you are constantly being smelled like this. Every 30 seconds there's a new video of new emotions, you know, and I think that's brilliant for mental health simply because that is, like you said, the next generation. And if you, like you said earlier, if you want to access the church is like, focuses on the next generation. I think that's how it should be as well. For activist movement.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:13:45] Activist movements, mental health, because they are inheriting the earth, they say, you know, they are what's next. And if we don't educate people now, the abuse cycles will just keep continuing. I know so many kids that comment saying, I'm never going to have kids. I'm like, if you don't want such a choice, but don't do it because you had a shitty childhood, do it because you don't feel the calling to be a parent, you know, because you don't have to continue these abuse cycles. If you educate yourself now, you can learn these coping skills. You can be that. You know, there's a picture I've seen a million times.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:14:17] It's like a row of matches that like ignite and light each other. You can be that one match moves back and stops the rest and burning, you know, and that's why I think TikTok is so powerful, because there's so many kids on it, so young, messaging me and it's just like they're, they're crying out for help. And if you can use social media appropriately, you can help change the world one viewer at a time.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:14:41] And sometimes all it takes is one video that can inspire a huge change in your life, you know? Yeah, like a podcast. You saw one podcast and it's like, oh, wow. I'm not the only one who thinks the Mormon church is crazy. I'm not alone.

Carah Burrell [03:14:55] Yeah. Validating so many people. Kelsey, your reach is so incredible. We've been live streaming this. People in the live stream have been watching this for hours and hours and your, your mods have been so kind and so helpful and I just think, I just think about the, the teenagers that are crying out for help and they, maybe they don't even know what they're, you know, between depression or self or they don't know what's going on. It's, you're kind of thrust into middle school or just you don't know what's out there, what resources are out there. So just like X Mormon TikTok and people have found each other and found a community. You've, you've started a community, haven't you? Like through your tick tock you've been able to help people and then you

John Dehlin [03:15:31] do more than just tick tock, right?

Kelceymarie Warner [03:15:32] I do have a discord and a Facebook.

John Dehlin [03:15:34] What's a discord?

Kelceymarie Warner [03:15:36] So it's totally new to me. A discord is, imagine a chat room basically. So you log in and they have channels. So I have a channel for like self harm channel for alternatives, this channel for depression. These are like subcategories and then you click the subcategory, you go into basically a chat room and the chat room is people talking about these subtopics. And it was open to people under 18. It's all ages. You could apply just so you could have help. The issue was there were people in there who were trolling people who were intentionally causing triggering content. We have rules for a reason, to keep people safe.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:16:09] But there are people going in there and just wreaking havoc. You know, we have people faking overdoses just, you know, they were doing it for attention, you know. And so we had to change it to over 18. So now if you want to join my discord, if you want to join my discord, sorry, you have to submit a photo ID just so we can make sure that you are a legitimate person who's going to go through the trouble of sending an id, you know, Smart. Yeah, it's really good. So as soon as we changed the age it got so much better. I got a lot of hate about that. But you know, it made the community safer for those who actually valued it.

John Dehlin [03:16:42] And the purpose of the community is,

Kelceymarie Warner [03:16:44] oh, learning self harm coping mechanisms. So there's so many more things you can do than just what I show you. So people just log in, say hi, I'm having a hard time. Oh cool, you should try this, you know, hi, from the uk. How about you try doing this today? We also have Like a channel for like milestones. Like, hi, I made it ten days without self harming. I know it's not a long time, but I feel pretty good.

John Dehlin [03:17:06] People are patting you on the back and congratulations encouragingly.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:17:08] That's amazing. If you could do 10 days, you can do 11 days. And some person will be like, I know this is terrible, but I slipped up and it's only been one minute. And they said, dude, we've all been one minute clean. Okay? Everyone's been one minute. You know, you can do two. You got this. And even if you fall, you know, you get up again. It's not so much the fall, it's how you handle it and you get back up. I have a lot of people come to me and they'll ask me how to hide their self harm scars. And it's like, I don't think you should simply because it goes back to eating disorder waters.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:17:37] If you are insecure about it now, you will be insecure about it forever, you know, And I don't want you to have to hide your body. Just be comfortable in the skin you're in because I don't know if it's going to go away. No one really knows, you know, and just be comfortable in the skin you're in. And when I look at people and I see those scars, I don't think anything less of them. Any person that's a quality person isn't going to think anything different. They're just like, oh, that person struggled. Oh, we have something in common, you know, And I think there's a lot of power in that because it also creates a silence community of just like, oh, I understand, you know.

John Dehlin [03:18:08] Yeah. And then you got a Facebook group.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:18:11] Yes, Facebook group is a lot smaller. It's about 300 people. And that one is just positivity. We don't discuss self harm. Si. Anything triggering. It's just there for feel good people pop in, post a picture of a happy quote or anything positive really, just because you need to positive space too.

John Dehlin [03:18:30] And then your workbooks.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:18:31] Yes, so my mental health journals, I have ones. I have several for self harm. We'll start with that one. So self harm one was created because I had a homework assignment with Walden University for my second master's degree in clinical mental health counseling. My emphasis on trauma, by the way. And I introduced it just like, hi guys, I know you're having a hard time so I made you something. And if you open the book it has was categories. And the categories are like, what triggered me today? Because something always Triggers you before you self harm. So what triggered me?

Kelceymarie Warner [03:19:05] What I did, you know, like did I self harm or did I use a coping skill? What coping skill I used? Did the coping skill work? Why or why not? And who you contacted, who you'll contact next time, as well as what coping skill you'll try next time. And the idea is you create an action plan. So every day I know this triggers me, so I keep a list of, you know, how so I can prepare myself if I expect this event to happen again. Um, I can keep track of the coping. So I tried and what impact they had so I know what to try next.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:19:32] I have an action plan for what I'll try next. And then for contacting people. It's just because sometimes I have people say I want to reach out for help, I don't want to be a bother. But if you record six pages and use a different name, you know, every six days, you haven't contact that person in like a week. You're not going to be a bother. You don't have to worry about it. And so that helps that way. I also include mental health hotlines for your country for like self harm, depression, that kind of thing. And then triggers and solutions page and a list of coping skills.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:20:04] I wrote down a list of coping skills and I also add the reference for Cornell University so they can just go to if they want to find more. And that's for cell pharm. I also have them for depression and anxiety. I just made one for PTSD and I'm developing one for borderline personality disorder. That one takes more research though, just because I don't have any experience of borderline personality disorder. So I also, I do in depth research with each journal just to make sure I'm creating quality content that help people. And then I also talk to people who have these disorders and you know, send them a free one, say, hi, can you use this for 30 days?

Kelceymarie Warner [03:20:36] Let me know what you think. How could it have been better? You know, and so that way it becomes a coping tool, not just like a journal you toss aside. Because journaling was really pushed with the LDS church. You journal everything. But I never got it. Like, why is that a thing? And then it occurred to me, maybe I was just doing it wrong. Maybe you need to be mindful.

John Dehlin [03:20:54] Yeah. If somebody were to say to you, okay, wait a minute, you're not a licensed mental health professional, you're not even an expert technically in terms of being trained in a lot of these things, you've got no business leading groups support groups, having 500,000 followers, having videos with millions of views like, go get your degree, go get your clinical training, wait. And get some clinical experience under your belt and then start helping people. You're. You're like not even licensed yet.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:21:31] Right.

John Dehlin [03:21:32] What would you say to people that might say that?

Kelceymarie Warner [03:21:35] I'd start with saying that I have never met a mental health professional that has disagreed with me. So I haven't, you know, they, they follow me on Tik Tok. They send their patients, they tell me they send their patients to me.

John Dehlin [03:21:45] Because you're basing your research off of scholarly resources. Anyone can do that, right?

Kelceymarie Warner [03:21:50] Anyone could do that. It's not me just talking for talk, you know, for views. I, it's. I have resources for every video I make you. If you have a question about it, I will gladly send you scholarly resources.

John Dehlin [03:22:01] It's not so freaking awesome, isn't it?

Kelceymarie Warner [03:22:04] Not like dot com, it's, you know dot edu or dot gov or something, you know, DDC and evidence based. It's evidence based, exactly. So I think that's the most important thing.

John Dehlin [03:22:15] Why else is, is it okay that you're doing this? Not that you have to justify it, but.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:22:23] Because I like helping people. I like helping people. It's something I have personal experience with. And a lot of mental health advocates don't actually have mental health licenses. Like Jazz Thornton. I don't know if you follow her. She's got a million followers. She's a huge, huge mental health advocate in New Zealand. She goes to these schools and just her job is she goes to schools and she talks about suicide awareness ideation, mental health, self harm. That is her job. You know, there are so many people that are just talking and it's good to talk. You should be talking about these things to try to wear this. And as long as you have evidence based research to back up your claims, I think it's fine. That's like, for me, saying that that would be like saying that a heterosexual person can't talk about LGBTQ issues. Well, you're heterosexual. What do you know? That makes sense.

John Dehlin [03:23:13] Yeah.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:23:13] Hope that's a nice comparison.

John Dehlin [03:23:16] No, I mean, and, and it's just like, if there's starfish on the beach that are dying, does it matter who's throwing them back in the water? If you're throwing them back in the water, like you are stepping up, up and saving starfish. And if other licensed mental health professionals want to get in the game and if they want to create better content and help more people and throw More starfish back in the water. I'm sure you'd be thrilled.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:23:40] Yes, absolutely. Like, why wouldn't you want someone to help someone? Yeah, that's stupid. I think the only people who give me hate on my page are people who are unhappy with themselves, I think. You know, and I think if you're a good person, you want others to help, like, keep spreading that good news. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:24:01] And then just what is so inspiring to me? Like, I'm never, you know, I'm never gonna just get to the point where I'm only interviewing tiktokers. That's not what this is about. I'm never gonna stop the podcast. I'm never gonna stop YouTube. I mean, at least it's never my intent, but.

John Dehlin [03:24:20] And I. And it's not like just because we're interviewing more influencers, that now that that's the new trend, it's just influencers. And I. I think it's really amazing when somebody not only goes through really hard things, but they decide to turn that into something that gives them meaning, that gives them purpose, and then that's just really blessing the lives of other people. So it's not just, you know, interviewing influencers to get more views, to pull their community, although that isn't bad for the podcast, per se. But when somebody decides they're not just going to go through something hard and not just get healthy, but then they're going to turn around and turn that, convert that into blessing the lives of others, that's worthy that.

John Dehlin [03:25:06] In my mind, that's what a superhero is. I'm a big Marvel fan. I'm a big Avengers fan, X Men fan. Like, I. When somebody crosses that threshold into really helping tens or hundreds or thousands, or in your case, hundreds of thousands of people, they're a superhero in my mind. And I want to give them a spotlight, not only to help promote their good work, but also to bless my audience with their expertise and to model for the rest of you. One of the most important things you can do with a faith crisis, one of the gifts of a faith crisis, it's not that you just hate on Joseph Smith for the rest of your life.

Raising Children, LGBTQ Acceptance, and Closing Reflections

John Dehlin [03:25:42] It's not that you obsess about what Sidney rigged in or Oliver Cowdery did, did, and, like, hate on the Mormon Church and follow what said at general conference. That's not the point of a faith crisis. The point of a faith crisis is to get healthy and then to figure out what the rest of your life is going to be about. And for me, one of the most inspiring things you can do is turn your faith crisis into something that blesses other people's lives and in the process gives you a sense of meaning and purpose. That is the magic golden recipe. That's what I want for everybody here to find your thing and then go do it.

John Dehlin [03:26:17] And that's what you've done. And it is. And that's Carah. That's what you've done, and that's what I've tried to do. And it's like what I want for every one of my audiences. We can't all ex Mormons, can't all be massive social influencers, but it's a great gig, in my opinion. Or something else. Whatever your passion is, find it it. And I am just inspired by the fact that you're two years out of a divorce and a faith crisis and unraveling and you're blessing the lives of hundreds of thousands of people. It's amazing. You have a bigger reach than me. I've been doing this for 7, 16, 17 years, and you have a bigger reach than me in two years. How badass is that? And I'm not jealous. I'm loving it.

Carah Burrell [03:27:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:27:02] More Kelsey's.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:27:03] More Kelsey's. Yeah, right? It's been a really good experience. It's been kind of scary at times. I didn't tell people I was doing this. Like, no one knows that I'm here today as my husband told them, or I didn't tell my family about my tiktoks either. No one knew until I was, like, interviewed by a news station in Chicago and I told, like, a relative. And then everybody had to know, you know, and they're like, what, Kelsey? You know, it was just nerve wracking because suddenly people that I knew knew that I went through these things, you know, knew that I thought these things. So it's kind of exciting but also kind of scary to be, like, have the attention on you for a second, you know, hot minute, you know?

Carah Burrell [03:27:47] So modeling that vulnerability is strength. And that, like, you've been through an absolute shit show.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:27:53] Right.

Carah Burrell [03:27:54] You've come out the end and you've, like, funneled into something that's helping hundreds of thousands of people. And sorry if your family doesn't like it or people get offended or the haters will hate.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:28:04] Right.

Carah Burrell [03:28:05] But, like, what you're doing, I think is really good.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:28:07] Thank you. I think so too. I feel very, very good about it. And for the first time in my life, I know who I am, I know how I feel about things, and I have an opinion And I'm here to say it, you know, and I think that's good.

John Dehlin [03:28:19] Yeah. And there's no profit. There's no quorum of the twelve apostles. There's no patriarchy. There's no law of chastity. And yet there's no model of perfectionism. There's no shame train. There's no shame cycle. The church teaches that wickedness never was happiness. And when they say wickedness, they mean not being an active, faithful, obedient Mormon. And would you say, and I don't mean to throw you a softball, but I am throwing you a softball. Would you say you're happier and healthier now than you've ever been been when you were an orthodox?

Kelceymarie Warner [03:28:54] I am so happier. List the, list the ways emotionally I have. I don't have guilt. I don't hold myself as often to too of a high, too high of a standard. I have a better relationship with my kids. I'm not worried about, you know, how righteous they are. I have a great relationship with my husband because I'm, I'm not holding him to a, a church standard. You know, before I might have freaked out that, you know, he wasn't like, like reading a scriptures today. Oh my God. What are you going through? You know, my relationship is better with my husband that I think it would have been my job.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:29:28] It's okay to have a job. You know, you can have, you can be a mother and have a career, you know, and that wasn't an option before education. I feel like Mrs. Degrees are very big in the, all the, you know, becoming a Mrs. A wife, Mrs. Degree is a big thing in the church and it's, that's not how it is in the real world.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:29:47] It's freeing. It's okay to be educated. It's okay to have an opinion. I wasn't allowed to have an opinion. I could never freely discuss things in Sunday school or with a church leader if I had an opposing idea. I just hadn't prayed enough. And someday I would get to that point. I would understand someday. I just hadn't grown enough yet.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:30:08] I feel free be who I am and love myself for it and take comfort in knowing that I'm raising emotionally intelligent children who will look at things objectively and not just through the lens of an LDS mindset, you know, and I'm raising children who are going to grow up and know that it's okay if they wear boy clothes or girl clothes or whatever, you know, it's okay if they want to be lesbians or bisexual or heterosexual. Or to believe what they want. You know, I'm raising confident children that will know that no matter what happens, I'm not going to stop talking to them because of a life choice I made.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:30:49] We know. I know. People whose parents were talking left the church, you know, and there's comfort in knowing that they will have less trauma than I did because of the decisions that I'm making now make sense. And leaving the church was a huge one, one that influenced their upbringing. We went to an LGBTQ Pride event last month in Pocatello. You guys, I thought we were in Idaho for a second.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:31:14] We went to Pocatello and it was so cool. Just because my kids were able to be around people just openly being themselves. And I got some comments from people saying that I was just conditioning my kids to be gay or something. I'm like, okay, it's not bad if you're gay. That's not how it works. That's not how it works, people.

John Dehlin [03:31:32] That's not how it works. You don't train your kid to be straight or gay.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:31:35] Right.

John Dehlin [03:31:36] It comes. They come out. However they come out, I promise you. I've studied this for a couple decades now.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:31:41] Right.

John Dehlin [03:31:42] What you do is you just. If you hopefully you just get out of their way and let them become who they're gonna be.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:31:47] Exactly.

John Dehlin [03:31:47] Because otherwise they just don't want to live. Or they just hide things from you and want to get away from you.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:31:52] Exactly.

John Dehlin [03:31:53] That's my experience. I'm 51.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:31:55] There you go.

John Dehlin [03:31:55] Got a PhD. Like, yeah, I'm not making that up. I really want what's best for you and your kids, but it's not shoving them into box A or box B. And that's it.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:32:05] Exactly.

John Dehlin [03:32:06] It's not. It's not the way. Right.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:32:08] It was incredible because it normalized things for them. You know, I live in Idaho Falls now, which is very close to Rexburg. It still very much has that Mormon bubble, as we call it. And so we were at T ball, a T ball game, and some kid, like six, randomly said that it wasn't good for guys to marry guys. And I was like, kind of random. Like, how would a six year old say that? I'm assuming he overheard his parents have a conversation.

John Dehlin [03:32:31] So kids don't come up with that garbage, you know, Fix religion. No, I'm sorry.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:32:36] There you go. So it was like, okay, you're not my kid. I'm not gonna talk to you about it. What I am going to do is talk to my kids. I'm like, you can love Whoever you want. My sister is bisexual. She's in a relationship with an amazing woman named Addie. We love her so much. And it's great for my kids to grow up without being normalized, I think, simply because it raises them not to treat people differently. So they see my husband and I, they don't think anything of it. They see Athena and Addie, and they don't think anything of it. And it's great that our community is growing in that way that we have LGBTQ events in Pocatello now, and even

John Dehlin [03:33:08] Idaho Falls, even Rexburg had a pride.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:33:11] Oh, my God, you're right. They did. I didn't make it a few weeks ago.

John Dehlin [03:33:13] Yeah. Rexburg pride. Yeah. Yeah.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:33:15] And it was just great that it was being normalized. I wanted them to not even think anything of it, you know?

John Dehlin [03:33:20] Yeah.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:33:21] And I think that if we keep doing this, it'll be like that someday. Then I'm gonna think about it. And I kind of equate these new social changes with what our grandparents experienced and maybe with, like, segregation, for example. You know, it was, you know, very taboo to have someone who was black, you know, drink from your water fountain or walk into your store. You know, they're.

John Dehlin [03:33:41] Or be in your swimming pool or your school.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:33:44] Right.

John Dehlin [03:33:44] Riding the bus, front and back.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:33:46] Exactly.

John Dehlin [03:33:47] Get in the back of the bus.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:33:48] Exactly. And with fighting and normalizing it, it's normal for my generation. I don't even think anything of it. You know, I'm like, maybe it's called colorblind. I hope I'm not called blind, but I just don't even think about it. Oh, you're a person. Hi. How are you? You know, and I'm hoping that's how it will be with lgbtq. If we just keep pushing it, our children and grandchildren aren't going to think anything of it. And I also feel like that's how it's going to be with gender pronouns. Like, right now, from my generation, I feel like it's very new for they, them, he, her, she, him, or. You know what I'm saying? It's kind of odd for a lot of people, and I think if we keep normalizing that for our children and grandchildren, it'll just be like everything else. It's just one step forward for humanity. Yeah, that makes sense.

John Dehlin [03:34:36] Yeah.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:34:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:34:38] Well, Carah, any final thoughts or questions for. Not to put you on the spot,

Carah Burrell [03:34:43] but you're putting me on the spot because I keep zoning out, because I'm just loving this so much. I'm looking at Kelsey's Live stream chat. I'm taking notes, but mostly I'm just like, Kelsey does this to me. I pop into her live streams more than anyone else's.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:34:55] Really.

Carah Burrell [03:34:56] I do. And I just watch. I just am quietly there because everything you say I agree with. And I think that you've come so far and you just have such a. Such a good exmo glow again, like, it's just such a good presence and so many good, positive things to say that, like, look how, like, giggly and happy and how much healthier she is on this side of Mormonism. And it just makes me so happy that. Yeah. That you've fostered a good community and people that are gaining so much knowledge from everything that you've been through. So just thank you for being here.

John Dehlin [03:35:24] Yeah.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:35:24] Thank you for inviting me. I was so excited. My husband's like, are you sure this is a real thing? I'm like, no, legit. Here's John de Lynn on of Top TED Talk.

Carah Burrell [03:35:31] Okay.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:35:31] Like, here's new on Tony's Carah, by the way. You should look at her stuff. He's like, oh, okay. I'm like, I'm not going to be like, traffic. It's fine.

Carah Burrell [03:35:37] You know, thank you for taking the chance on us.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:35:42] Right? It's fine.

John Dehlin [03:35:43] Some listeners don't know this, but just. Just this year, we cracked the top 10 to 20 podcasts in the United States for Religion, Christianity. Religion. We are at times a top. I mean, we're talking Joel Osteen, Rick Warren, and we sometimes crack the top 10 religious themed podcasts in the United States. And I'm not, like, shaming anyone for not knowing that, but we're kind of legit. We're kind of a big deal.

Carah Burrell [03:36:08] I joined. Yeah, right. Yeah. I'm taking us straight to the moon, getting Kelsey roped in here.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:36:15] Ride this wave, you know?

John Dehlin [03:36:18] Yeah, you can let your husband know that.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:36:19] Oh, I'm alive, babe. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:36:23] All right. Well, it's been just such a pleasure to get to know you better, Kelsey, and we're just so thrilled that you would come on our show. We're thrilled for what you're doing to help people, and mostly you're just lovely, and we've loved hearing your story, and we know that so many people are going to be helped by you being willing to tell you like this. So thank you so, so much and keep up the great work.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:36:48] Thank you. Been a real pleasure. Really. Just like, it's a dream come true. Just be here with you guys. I was, like, so excited.

John Dehlin [03:36:55] So, you know, on a podcast You've never heard of what?

Kelceymarie Warner [03:36:58] I've heard of you.

John Dehlin [03:36:59] Oh, okay. Okay.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:37:03] It was really cool to meet you guys.

John Dehlin [03:37:04] Yeah, likewise.

Carah Burrell [03:37:05] Likewise, for sure.

John Dehlin [03:37:08] All right. Care you want to close it out?

Carah Burrell [03:37:10] Oh, then just give the donor speech.

John Dehlin [03:37:12] Whatever you want to say.

Carah Burrell [03:37:13] I'm in training to replace John DeLand, so he just gave his whole feel about a supplement is really the training. But yeah, so that's the meter. We cracked the top 10 in podcasts and we'll see if I can crack the top five or if me being here lessons are, you know, ranking or whatever.

Carah Burrell [03:37:31] So I have to, like, think, what would John de Lynn. How. How would he end a podcast? Okay, so we want to thank all of our donors because we can't do this without our donors. I have just been brought up on to splice up different episodes because we have so many. We've been doing. I've been doing this for two months, but John's been at this for 17 years. So the amount of podcasts and relevant information that people going through faith crisis is of all different kinds is really needed. So I need to get paid. John needs to get paid. The Open Source Foundation, Gerardo, Brooklyn.

Closing Thanks and Donor Appreciation

Carah Burrell [03:38:07] Huge thanks to all of our team because we can't do this without our donors. As you could tell if anyone's new to listening to this podcast, that we are not sponsored and we do this all with donor support. So if you go to MormonStories.org and click the donate button and you can just set it and forget it. Really like your name is Ron Swanson. No, that's not his name.

Carah Burrell [03:38:28] What's his name? Ron, from the set it and forget it guy from the infomercials. All right. It's a inside joke in my head. Anyway, the point is you can set it and forget it it. I'm getting fired right now.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:38:38] I'm getting fired.

John Dehlin [03:38:40] You're getting promoted.

Carah Burrell [03:38:41] I'm getting promoted.

John Dehlin [03:38:41] You're turning the final pitch into comedy.

Carah Burrell [03:38:45] Okay, you're making it because we don't edit this. You know, the point is you can set up a monthly donation on MormonStories.org and that will just keep coming in to add to the ability to have such a high production quality here, to get our podcast, our YouTube out to as many people as possible. And we are losing donors because some people move on after a faith crisis, and so we are always trying to replace them. So if you've enjoyed this programming and you want to get more amazing guests here in our studio that we have here in Holiday, Utah, and you want to Keep John employed, me employed, and keep telling these stories, keep spicing them up for Tik Tok, and keep everything running and the lights on. Please donate and if that is within your financial ability to do so. And what else am I leaving out, John?

John Dehlin [03:39:37] How else can people support us in addition to donate?

Carah Burrell [03:39:39] Donating, sharing this, liking this, making sure that you are subscribed on all of the different platforms and YouTube, tick tock Instagram, YouTube, tick tock, Instagram, Twitter, sharing, liking Facebook, interacting as much as possible so that we can keep validating more Mormons post, Mormons, progressive Mormons who are in tough spots. And that this content is just so sorely needed because there's just a tsunami of people waking up and needing help and support. And so if this content has been beneficial to you, and we hope that you'll share it with somebody else, it might also be beneficial too, as well as donating.

John Dehlin [03:40:23] All right, Beautiful. That was great.

Carah Burrell [03:40:26] It wasn't. It wasn't a bad first try.

John Dehlin [03:40:29] I give myself a demonstration, and you can always email us@mormonstoriesmail.com if you've got feedback. We'd love to hear from you. We love to hear ideas of people you'd like us to interview or topics you'd like us to cover. And we just love to hear from you. So feel free to reach out. Out in all the different ways. Well, Carah, it's. It's so great to have you. Thank you so much for. It's been so fun to have you. Come aboard.

Carah Burrell [03:40:54] It's been so good too. And I'm just. I love the synergy in this room right now. I don't want it to end, but this has been a really good podcast. Thanks for having me. Thanks for.

John Dehlin [03:41:02] Thanks for bringing Kelsey.

Carah Burrell [03:41:04] Yeah, definitely enough time spent on Tick Tock and I will be doing my job by as producer.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:41:08] Oh, yeah.

Carah Burrell [03:41:09] I'd be like, I'm working, I'm editing Tick Tocks and I'm fighting. Didn't guess. My husband can't bug me. And I'm on Tik Tok 12 hours a day.

Kelceymarie Warner [03:41:15] Anyway, Anyway.

Carah Burrell [03:41:17] But I. I love. I love what we're doing here, so thank you for having me, John.

John Dehlin [03:41:21] All right. All right. Thanks again, Kelsey. And thanks again, everybody. Please join us again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take.

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