Welcome and Introducing Kim and Josh Coffin

Part 1 of 3 · Ep. 1828

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am one of your hosts for today, John Dehlin. It is October 18, 2023 and I am here with my partner in truth and righteousness, Margi. Hey Margi, how's it going? It's good to have you.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:17] It's going really well, thank you.

John Dehlin [00:00:18] We are this week and last week, by the time this is released, we are in the middle of covering basically a bunch of stories and reporting tied to this book, Visions of Glory. This book, Visions of Glory, is penned by a man named John Pontius who has passed away. He is dictating or transcribing some near death experiences of a man in the book called Spencer and that's a pseudonym. But the actual name of the man who is behind Spencer in this near death experience book is Tom Harrison. Tom Harrison is a very well known therapist along the Wasatch front. And the reason why I'm talking about all this, why we're talking about all this, including the Visions of Glory book, is because we have discovered that Tom Harrison appears to be kind of like the wizard of Oz, kind of like the spiritual leader or the mentor for Julie Rowe, for Ted Dabell and Lori Valo, of course, the murders that you all know about from that, but also Jody Hildebrandt and connections and finally the eight passengers, Ruby, Frankie Stuff and Tim Ballard. N o you are. What do all those different tragic and horrendous stories have in common? They have their roots in having everyone both read this book, Visions of Glory, about end times, second coming. I call it Mormon neo fundamentalism, but also preparism. And most or all of the people that I just mentioned have had direct interactions with and or relationships with Tom Harrison and this book, Visions of Glory. So that's a prelude to my introduction of our guests for today. Our guests for today are Kim and Josh Coffin. And just to let you know, ahead of time we're going to be talking about a lot of themes including scrupulosity, perfectionism, being raised by very conservative, I will say neo fundamentalist type parents. But in Kim's case, as I understand it, Kim's father is one of the co leaders of the Internet community called AVOW or I think preparing a people. But it's basically, maybe that's different but we'll talk about that. It's basically leaders in the neo fundamentalist Mormon prepper community. And that's the family, that's one of the families that Kim Coffin made a name being.

Kim Coffin [00:02:59] Oh, sorry, Perette Perrette.

John Dehlin [00:03:02] Yeah, that's the family Kim grew up in. So one of the main things for today is going to be Kim and Josh and being raised in very conservative, almost neo fundamentalist Mormon families. And then how that's played out. We'll also have possibly some themes of abuse and, of course, faith journeys. So without any further ado, Kim and Josh Coffin, welcome to Mormon Stories podcast.

Kim Coffin [00:03:29] Thank you so much for having us today.

John Dehlin [00:03:31] Yeah, thanks. Yeah. We really appreciate you coming all the way from St. George. Is that right? St. George, yeah. What would you want to add to the introduction or correct about the introduction? Because I like to give people a sense for what the interview's about.

Margi Dehlin [00:03:46] Sure.

Josh Coffin [00:03:46] The AVOW stands for Another Voice of Warning. So for those who are looking it up online, that's kind of the acronym avow. Another Voice of Warning. And yeah, we just. We have three kids, we live in St. George, Utah, and we both went to BYU Idaho together. And so talk about our journey together and Kim's family as well as mine, so.

John Dehlin [00:04:07] Okay. Kim, anything you want to add?

Kim Coffin [00:04:10] No, I think that covers it. Yeah. We're excited to talk with you today.

John Dehlin [00:04:14] Okay. And y', all, I guess it's. This isn't why we had you on. We have you on for your story, but you. You guys also have a. A prominent YouTube channel that I actually know almost nothing about. But do you. Do you want to just mention that really quick or would you rather not mention that?

Kim Coffin [00:04:35] A quick intro. It's called Sweet Red Poppy.

John Dehlin [00:04:37] Yeah.

Kim Coffin [00:04:38] And it's a crafting and sewing channel. We instruct people on how to use craft tech. So think sewing machines, Cricut, Glow Forge, anything that makes crafting easier. And started that about seven, eight years ago, and it took off really pretty in a big way over during COVID So.

John Dehlin [00:05:03] Yeah, well, I always have. I mean, social media is the way people are being influenced these days, and it's a. It's a interesting and a sometimes fun and a very challenging business. So I always respect learning about people's successes and challenges. So anyway, most importantly, welcome to Mormon Stories podcast. We're really honored to hear your stories today.

Josh Coffin [00:05:26] Thanks, John. Appreciate it.

John Dehlin [00:05:29] Okay, so I think we'll probably do this in two parts. Part one will be kind of what it's like growing up with prepper slash neofundalist Mormon, neo fundamentalist Mormon parents. I will want to talk a little bit about when this book, Visions of Glory, enters into your family's lives. I understand it was pretty. A fundamental part of your family dynamics. Is that right?

Kim Coffin [00:05:57] Yeah, it came out two years after I graduated high school. But definitely, definitely changed the way that we were parented. And I think it echoes a lot of other books that have come out about similar topics. Yeah, so it's, it's an interesting one.

John Dehlin [00:06:15] Yeah. Yeah. All right. And so I guess maybe, Kim, let's start with. With your story a little bit. And, and, and then we'll. We'll integrate you, Josh, as well, and we'll do part one maybe up through when the. Your testimony cracks start to develop. And then part two will be about your faith journeys and then your reconstruction. Does that sound all right?

Josh Coffin [00:06:42] Sounds great.

Margi Dehlin [00:06:43] Sounds great.

John Dehlin [00:06:43] So we'll split up into two. All right, Kim and Margi, anything you want to say before we jump in?

Margi Dehlin [00:06:49] No, I'm just. I'm excited.

John Dehlin [00:06:51] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:06:52] Yeah.

Kim's Mormon Upbringing and Early Childhood

John Dehlin [00:06:53] All right. Well. All right, Kim, where does your Mormon story begin?

Kim Coffin [00:07:00] Where do you want me to start?

John Dehlin [00:07:02] So where were you born and. And siblings? And tell us a bit about your parents as well, if you're comfortable.

Kim Coffin [00:07:11] So, I was born in Colorado in 1992. I have a twin brother and a younger brother and a younger sister. My father is a convert to the church, so he converted in his late 20s. My mother was raised LDS her whole life. They met after she.

Margi Dehlin [00:07:37] She.

Kim Coffin [00:07:37] She was married before and got a divorce. During her divorce process, she met my dad. And that was about, I think, the time he was taking discussions with the missionaries. And shortly after, they got married in the temple. And few, I don't know, a year and a half, two years later, I think they had me and my twin brother.

Josh Coffin [00:08:01] Okay, your dad was in the military too, right?

Kim Coffin [00:08:03] Yeah, before that, my dad was in the military.

John Dehlin [00:08:06] Interesting. So he was a convert, not a pioneer stock, which.

Kim Coffin [00:08:11] Converting is interesting. He grew up as an only child and really didn't have a relationship or contact with his father. And it wasn't until he joined the church and learned about family history that he found out more information about his family and he got back into contact with his father that I. I don't think he had seen his father since he was like one or two. And his father had actually joined the Mormon Church as well and had a new family, and he found out he had siblings. So that was so interesting to join a church and then find out that the father that you had had little to no contact with your entire life was also a member of that church.

John Dehlin [00:08:54] That would seem providential.

Kim Coffin [00:08:56] Yeah, definitely.

John Dehlin [00:08:58] Yeah. Okay. And do you have a sense for what type of upbringing your mom had at all? How conservative it was?

Kim Coffin [00:09:08] Very conservative. She was raised in the South. And I believe her father was a bishop at one point. She's one of nine children. The oldest girl. She has two older brothers. So a pretty strict Mormon upbringing.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:28] Yeah.

Kim Coffin [00:09:29] What else?

Josh Coffin [00:09:30] Yeah, very conservative family.

Kim Coffin [00:09:32] Yeah, very strict.

John Dehlin [00:09:35] Okay.

Josh Coffin [00:09:35] Big family. Big family.

Kim Coffin [00:09:37] Big family.

John Dehlin [00:09:38] Big family.

Josh Coffin [00:09:38] In terms of, like, nine kids. Nine kids, yeah. Lots of brothers, lots of sports. Was it North Carolina?

Kim Coffin [00:09:45] North Carolina, Yeah. They moved around a little bit, but I think they were always mostly in the South. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:49] Okay.

Kim Coffin [00:09:50] And very dedicated to the church.

John Dehlin [00:09:53] Okay. Okay. So what do you have any really formative Mormon early childhood memories that you think are really important to your story or would be maybe even different than what the average Mormon experience might be, if that even exists?

Growing Up with a Prepper Father and Apocalyptic Fear

Kim Coffin [00:10:13] I think what would really set my childhood experiences apart would be be having a father who was very into preparedness. Like, I remember some of my earliest childhood memories are going to the cannery in Colorado, having, like, those little metal cans. Those were all under our bunk bed. I remember we would get them out and, like, slide around on. Try to walk on them. So I remember even when we lived in the teeny, tiniest little apartment with six people, we still had. We still made room for food storage. It was that important that we were always prepared for what my dad said was coming and was coming coming soon.

John Dehlin [00:10:55] So your. Your dad believed that the Second Coming was nigh from a very early age?

Kim Coffin [00:10:59] Yes, yes. We were told all the time that we were the chosen generation, that it was going to happen during our lifetime, and that we needed to be prepared both spiritually as well as physically. So we needed to have food storage ready and be prepared because it could happen at any point.

Margi Dehlin [00:11:18] So I'm curious, as a child, within, so experiencing messages and even like a lived reality in your home, did that feel. How did that feel for you as a young child, a young girl, was it like a. Did you then fear what was coming? Did you feel comforted because you were prepared? Like, how. How did that feel for you as a child?

Kim Coffin [00:11:44] I had a lot of fear growing up, worrying. I have a lot of anxiety, and so I think my anxiety tended to focus on what's coming and will I be righteous enough to be one of the people that's saved or that is called out? So a lot of fear. I had terrible nightmares as a child. Just always worried about what was coming. And so, yeah, definitely a huge theme of fear throughout my childhood of, were we good enough? Was I good enough? Was I doing everything that I could? And that was. That was difficult.

John Dehlin [00:12:22] So can you paint for us an understanding of what you were taught about the calamity and the violence and the carnage of the second Coming. So you're a kid. Let's just say you're a highly conscientious kid. Let's say you have scrupulosity and a lot of anxiety. What. What was your vision of what would happen when Christ came in terms of violence and mayhem and destruction for. For those who weren't righteous to know what you were fearing? Right.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:52] Yeah.

Kim Coffin [00:12:54] I'm trying to think of as a child, what my views of that were.

John Dehlin [00:13:01] And it can even be what. What you've come to learn.

Kim Coffin [00:13:03] Yeah, yeah. Because I. I don't paint a picture

John Dehlin [00:13:06] of the second come. What. What precedes the second coming of Jesus.

Kim Coffin [00:13:09] There was a lot of fear for me about. My dad would quote so much, what's the scripture about? Sorting the wheat from the tares. He would always quote that scripture specifically. And it was so unsettling to me because he would tell us, like, anyone in our congregation could be a tare and they could so easily fall away from the church. And they. Most of the people in our congregation are not going to be worthy enough for the second coming or for the call out. And so then you just have, like, this terrible feeling inside, like, am I one of those people and I just don't know it? And that was so unsettling as a child, just always feeling like maybe I won't be enough or maybe I'm not righteous enough. And then we spoke about earlier that I do have ocd. And one of the types of OCD that I have is scrupulosity. So scrupulosity really is a religious form of OCD where you have obsessive thoughts and then compulsions that make you feel safe. So for me, it felt like we were always living this higher law than everyone else in the general Mormon population. That's how I was raised to believe, was that my father had this information that most normal Mormons didn't have access to. And we, with that knowledge, would be more prepared for the second coming if we were righteous. And it was kind of an odd viewpoint to go to church. And he definitely seemed to think that, like, some of the Mormons were lesser Mormons. They weren't as righteous, they weren't as informed.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:54] And

Kim Coffin [00:14:56] OCD can be so, so tricky within the church. So I had a lot of, like, little rituals that I would do. When you have an obsessive thought, like, it feels like it just circulates. It comes over and over and over. And it can be very Distressing. When you don't know that what you're struggling with is your mental health, you just think that it's some evil spirit that is coming into your mind. And that's kind of what we were taught was if you have a thought that keeps happening, it's an evil spirit that's trying to get in.

John Dehlin [00:15:28] And I don't want to derail your story by talking about visions of glory so much, but I'm reading Visions of Glory right now. And this idea of demonic embodied or disembodied or never embodied spirits entering your body is like a core theme of this book. And this book came out in 2012. Do you have a sense for whether those beliefs that your parents were teaching you as a Mormon child preceded the this book?

Kim Coffin [00:15:58] Definitely.

John Dehlin [00:15:59] Oh, okay.

Kim Coffin [00:16:00] Yeah. And we were rereading this book this past week because I was trying to get a better feel for when did I start learning these principles? Because a lot of the things that I was taught by my father were not necessarily things that were taught in mainstream Mormonism. And I'm still trying to figure out what is the fundamentalist viewpoint versus mainstream Mormonism. And it's a little bit tricky, but I know that some of those things I was taught definitely predated the publishing of this book. And I think this book echoes a lot of other books and ideas that we've seen from other. More of those fundamentalist believers, those. The prepper community. So I think that idea that the evil spirits were outside of your body and that at any time if you had an evil thought that they could come in, or that if you put any substance into your body, that you were welcoming them into your body, that definitely predated that book being published.

John Dehlin [00:16:56] Yeah. I can just say, just as someone that's been, you know, 54 years studying Mormonism in the 80s when I was getting my church education, you know, possession, demonic possession was absolutely a thing exorcism was taught, and this idea of evil and good spirits being able to influence you, that's all that is core Mormon doctrine. Because there's this whole Mormon theology of the pre existence and all of God's spirit children, and then a third of the hosts of heaven are cast out, and those evil third of God's children are sent to earth and they follow Satan and Lucifer and those spirits get into your body. So I want to be careful. Half of our audience has never been Mormon. And it would be wrong to call this idea of spiritual almost demonic possession. It would be wrong to call that a fringe Mormon belief because it was a core Mormon belief to what I was taught. Also an obsession with the second coming. In the second coming of Jesus in the end times, it's the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Latter Day Saints means we're in the end times. And Mormons have been obsessing about the second coming of Jesus since the founding of the church. So it's difficult because while I agree with you that your dad and parents were not mainstream, I don't want to make it sound like those beliefs are out of the mainstream. Maybe they're not. They're less emphasized in the past few decades still, in my opinion, very core Mormon doctrine Now. Please disagree with me if you see it differently.

Kim Coffin [00:18:31] No, no, I don't disagree at all. As we've transitioned into the ex Mormon community and spoken with more people, we do see some of these things are echoed throughout other people's experiences and it's interesting to hear their experiences because it's not necessarily written anywhere. I don't know that some of these things were written by prophets per se, but again, a lot of these things were taught in Sunday school or

Margi Dehlin [00:19:06] in

Kim Coffin [00:19:06] different lessons, but I don't know that they were necessarily approved by the prophet,

Josh Coffin [00:19:11] weren't necessarily in the manuals, but they were definitely spoken about. There's a lot of fear mongering that happened. I know she's spoken a lot about how it's always a culture of fear. There's not enough food, the time is running out. Scarcity, scarcity complex. There's also a lot around your being watched. I think you talked a lot about. And this kind of threw me for a loop that she felt that the Holy Ghost was always watching her, that you even.

John Dehlin [00:19:34] Do you want to tell that the bathing suit thing?

Kim Coffin [00:19:36] Yeah. So I feel like with OCD you have these highs and lows. And sometimes when you're in a high where you're really experiencing a lot of those intrusive thoughts, it can be really a struggle. And I remember when I was having one of those struggles, one of the things that I was taught was that the evil spirits could see everything that you were doing, but that God could also see everything that you were doing. So at all times you were being watched, which is an unsettling thought to think that everything that you do is being viewed by multiple people. And so as a child I took that as well. If they can hear every thought that I'm having, if they can see everything that I'm doing, then am I safe in the shower? Which is ridiculous. Looking back on It. But it was a real fear that I had. And so I remember for a while I had this bathing suit that I would sneak into the bathroom and I had it in the cupboard and I would just pull it out when I needed to shower and I would wear it because I was so afraid that God could see me naked. And I didn't want a man seeing me naked. I didn't want evil spirits seeing me naked. And just looking back on that, it's so unsettling to think about that. As a child I was worried about not feeling safe in my own body because I was being watched at all times.

Josh Coffin [00:21:05] And that you might have welcomed the evil spirits by not fighting off the thought or that it was your fault if there were evil spirits nearby. Like there was always a guilt complex or a shame around that. If you let the spirit in, it's your fault. Or if they're nearby, it's on you. Which is an eight year old kid, an eight year old girl. Like, what in the world.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:25] That's lovely. Absolutely. I'm kind of hearing you speaking, John, a little bit about mainstream Mormonism and it having some of these elements in the sort of belief, experience, profile of mainstream Mormonism. What I'm hearing, the difference as you're talking is just the level of focus being placed on it that's different from, I'll just say my experience within Mormonism and the level of like intensity around it as well. And living in a place of just kind of, whether it's spiritual emergency or you know, this kind of impending doom to your soul, whether that's like what you're saying with like spirits being your thoughts or like when you're trying to take a shower. This, you know, and that, that to me does feel like different than what I experienced in Maine. It feels like much more intense, focused. Yeah. Dire.

Kim Coffin [00:22:33] Yeah. That definitely is different than the experience of most people that I've spoken with. I didn't know that it was so different growing up though. I thought the thoughts that I were, that I was having that was similar to what everyone else was experiencing. And I wasn't aware that I had OCD or that there were. I mean we. I wasn't aware that mental health was even a thing growing up that wasn't. My parents made fun of mental health growing up, so there would have been.

John Dehlin [00:23:00] That was a part of the culture is making fun of, of sort of psychotherapy or therapy or psychiatry or.

Kim Coffin [00:23:08] Definitely. Yes.

Josh Coffin [00:23:09] Yeah.

Kim Coffin [00:23:09] It's still something to this day that my father makes fun of. And everyone in our family suffers with their mental health. And it's really, really sad to see that, that I think everyone in my family has been on anxiety medication at some point outside of my father. And that's something that he mocks. That's just a spiritual shortcoming. If you're having negative thoughts, then you're not living righteously enough.

Josh Coffin [00:23:36] It's a weakness. He sees it as a weakness.

John Dehlin [00:23:38] And I'll just say again, that was core Mormon doctrine. So if you read Mormon doctrine by Bruce Amakanki, there was heavy skepticism and even contempt for mental health professionals. And I'd say the mainstream church today has moved away from that some, but they haven't really purged it and I don't know how they would purge it from the general membership. So there's still strong strains of that in conservative Mormonism. Yeah, Margi.

OCD, Mental Health, and Coping as a Child

Margi Dehlin [00:24:08] So to me, I'm really getting a sense for like a very terrifying world as a child and that you have this sense of like, how do I cope, how do I survive this world and my home and my life that that has been created. When you look back and you've brought up OCD a couple times already, you know, when do you remember? And maybe this is difficult. Like, you know, your 8 year old self or your 7 year old self might not have known it was OCD, but now looking back, like when do you see that coping emerging as a way to just sort of survive this existence as it's been painted for you?

Kim Coffin [00:24:58] I'm not sure I fully understand the

Margi Dehlin [00:25:01] coping being ocd, OCD trying to control now this thought thing that now has been infused with, you know, spirits and demons and it's in your bad when that is happening to you. Like do you have a sense for when in your timeline you're like, yeah, I can see now some of those roots of OCD coming forward.

Kim Coffin [00:25:26] Oh, definitely. I think that those, those intrusive thoughts probably started maybe a few years before baptism. I know that they really heightened after my baptism, after I felt like I was accountable for everything that I thought or did. But I know that they definitely started before. So probably I would say six or seven, I started having those intrusive thoughts.

John Dehlin [00:25:55] Yeah, well, let's keep going with your story. So what, you know, kind of let's, let's keep going with how it was for you as a child and as a teen with super conservative Mormon prepper parents, basically

Life with Super-Conservative Prepper Parents in Colorado

Kim Coffin [00:26:12] trying to think of where else to, to go. Let's see. So we lived in Colorado for quite a while and I think somewhere in there that's when my dad got involved with the prepping community. I don't know exactly what year he became involved. I remember my mom joking that he wanted to move us to a commune or a compound and sell all of our belongings and prepare for the last days. My mother was never. She wasn't. She didn't hold all of the same beliefs that he did.

Josh Coffin [00:26:52] No, it was always sort of, sure, honey, right, like, interesting go along to get along.

Kim Coffin [00:26:58] She would kind of laugh off his more intense beliefs. And I viewed that as maybe a shortcoming on her part at the time. Like, oh, she isn't as righteous or she doesn't understand as much as my father does because clearly he is living this higher law than anyone. And I didn't feel like she quite understood, which I think is a common theme with scrupulosity, of thinking that people are living, like, on different planes and that some people have that higher knowledge and understand that, and other people just maybe aren't quite on the same level, which I feel like sounds like such a terrible way to view humanity. And I hate that that is was a view that I had. But that was how we were raised to think.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:49] And growing up, when you're thinking about your dad and your relationship with your dad, how would you talk about him as a figurehead in your home and what you were conditioned to think about him?

Kim Coffin [00:28:05] My father was very strict, very abusive, very. He's not a kind man. And so I had a lot of fear about the second coming, but also about my father. So our relationship wasn't great. But throughout my life, whenever I would always doubt myself, I never doubted that there was a problem or a fault with him. It was always. If I didn't measure up to his standard, it was just some personal failing. I wasn't enough. I wasn't righteous enough. If I didn't understand, it was because I had a shortcoming. I never questioned if there was anything wrong with his beliefs or I just thought he knows everything. Because in the church, we are taught that our fathers are the head of the household and that they receive divine inspiration and revelation for our family. And I never questioned that belief from the church either. I just believed my father knows what's best. He will always lead us. He will never make a mistake. And so anything that he did do, if it was wrong or hurtful, I didn't question it. I just thought I didn't understand. I don't fully understand God's plan for me.

John Dehlin [00:29:42] So was it a harsh form of Mormonism?

Kim Coffin [00:29:50] Definitely,

John Dehlin [00:29:52] in terms of belief, but Also behavior. Anything you want to say about kind of this harsh brand of Mormonism, of prepper Mormonism?

Kim Coffin [00:30:02] It was very harsh. I guess, to give background. My father was in the army. He is very strict, kind of. It almost feels as though he thought he could run his family like they were all in the army. There wasn't a lot of love. There wasn't a lot of physical affection. Very, very little empathy. It was. Yeah, it was very harsh.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:38] I'm curious, in growing up, if there were either hobbies or places outside your home or people like, were there places of softness for you?

Kim Coffin [00:30:59] I love that question. There definitely were. I loved being outside. As a child, I would spend so much time outside because that was like my safe. My safe place. We've talked about this a lot. I'm sorry. I was hoping I would be so emotional.

Josh Coffin [00:31:17] Mm.

Kim Coffin [00:31:21] Being within the walls of my home never felt safe. My parents were both very abusive, and so I would spend a lot of time outside and just had a wild imagination. I would just go outside and pretend that I was in my own safe world. I love that there was this big tree, and I would climb it all the time. And I just have fond memories of that.

Josh Coffin [00:31:49] I think you enjoyed, like, the streams and the crawdads in North Carolina when you'd visit your extended family. You talk a lot about that.

Kim Coffin [00:31:56] Yeah.

Josh Coffin [00:31:57] Drives in the Colorado mountains.

Kim Coffin [00:31:59] And there were good memories with my parents, too. I don't want to frame it all as being terrible. There were things that they did that I very much don't agree with, but there were good, good parts of them, too.

John Dehlin [00:32:15] Thank you for being willing to talk about something so hard. And I'm so. Morgan, I. All of us are so sorry to hear about the abuse. I'm curious. You know, there will be abusive people in and out of Mormonism and in and out of religion sometimes. What we like to really shine a spotlight on is abuse or harm that can be tied to theology or church teachings or beliefs. So is there anything you can share about ways that the abuse or harshness was tied to beliefs or fears of certain behaviors or beliefs or theologies about how the world works or how God works or how Satan works that could have informed and even fed some of that abuse? Does that make sense with whatever detail you want to share?

Kim Coffin [00:33:17] Yeah, that definitely makes sense. I think within Mormonism, there are a lot of teachings within mainstream Mormonism, not just necessarily like those fringe groups. There are a lot of teachings that support. More abusive styles of parenting.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:39] Sure.

Kim Coffin [00:33:39] Wouldn't you say?

Margi Dehlin [00:33:40] Yeah.

Josh Coffin [00:33:40] Fear based Parenting, for sure. All the time. Just sort of like the emotional, the yelling, the. Just the. And even the physical. Right. The emotional and the physical abuse to put the fear of God in you so that you'll behave.

Kim Coffin [00:33:57] Yeah, yeah. I mean, you can even look at the Bible and see scriptures like, bear the rod, spoil the child. And that was one of my father's favorite ones to quote. So that was one of the ways he used the scriptures to justify his behaviors.

John Dehlin [00:34:14] So I guess that is biblical, that phrase.

Kim Coffin [00:34:18] I believe it is.

John Dehlin [00:34:19] Yeah.

Josh Coffin [00:34:19] I'd also say, too, that the. There was a lot of worship for him as a man. It was a very patriarchal home. From what you've said.

Kim Coffin [00:34:27] Right.

Josh Coffin [00:34:27] That you definitely. Dad could do no wrong. Right. And what dad said was final law and word, and that's just something you had to deal with. Even your mother. Right.

Kim Coffin [00:34:37] Yeah. Even she wasn't really able to stand up to him or voice how she felt. It was very much. It felt like a dictatorship. And it wasn't until I was in college and I was studying marriage and family therapy that I started to piece together. Oh, this was not a healthy dynamic. I'm sitting in my marriage and therapy classes and we're talking about different styles of parenting and how parents interact with each other. And I started to realize, oh, all the things that you're telling me parents should not do and the styles of parenting that we should not work with, those are the ones that I grew up with. And that's not great to hear, but I hadn't ever questioned it until probably college

Margi Dehlin [00:35:22] and.

Kim Coffin [00:35:23] But I think. I think some of those things happen throughout a lot of Mormon families, that physical violence is excused because the father is allowed to do what he sees best and should instill the fear of God in his children. We do see that a lot, unfortunately.

John Dehlin [00:35:43] And then the belief that, like, Jesus is coming any day. We have to be pure. We have to be the chosen. Satan and his minions are all around us trying to get us. We'll be tortured and destroyed at Jesus second coming if we're not righteous. So there Is there. Do you think there's kind of a theological or religious sense of intensity that may have even been sincere on your dad's part, where he's just saying the stakes are super high. It can be really bad if we're not good. It's coming any moment. We've got to just amp up the intensity.

Kim Coffin [00:36:30] Oh, definitely. And I have, like, this part of my heart that hurts for him because I do think so much of his life has been Lived with so much fear and worry and anxiety about the future. I know that he doesn't necessarily believe in anxiety, but I can see that he struggles with anxiety and that it can be really painful. And I think one of his coping mechanisms for dealing with anxiety and never feeling like he was safe or had enough was finding the prepping community. Because when you have an answer to a question, it makes you feel safe. And especially if you're struggling with ocd, you have those intrusive thoughts like, the world is ending. The world is ending. The world is ending. And it repeats. The compulsion is I can go research about how the world is ending, and then I can do XYZ to make myself feel safe. And so he definitely had these coping mechanisms that provided a sense of safety or a feeling of control. And viewing him from that lens, it makes me feel bad for him. I feel terrible that he lived with so much fear. That's painful. It's painful for anyone, even if they. Even if they are abusive in their behavior, like, they're still. I still hold a lot of pain for him that he grew up in a family without a father, never having enough, and that that theme carried throughout from his childhood, carried throughout adulthood, and ended him up in this prepping community where there is so much fear and pain.

Josh Coffin [00:38:13] And they are literal believers, too, right? I mean, he's a very literal believer. Like, the end of it's actually gonna come. Right. I do think there are sometimes members who don't take that as serious, and there's others that really dive into the literal belief that the end of times is here. And I felt that very much so, even just when I met you, was that, you know, he's ready for the end of times, you know, loading his own ammo and his guns and the food storage, the bunker, that kind of stuff.

Kim Coffin [00:38:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:40] Can you talk about, like, prepper. I'll say prepper materialism, but, like, it's a lot more than just food storage, right?

Kim Coffin [00:38:48] So much more than food storage. It's thinking through everything that you might need if every. You know, if crap hits the fan, what would you possibly need to have? And it's.

John Dehlin [00:39:02] What's the type of calamity that preppers envision happening?

Kim Coffin [00:39:06] So it depends on whose visions or dreams you're ascribing to. And there are a lot of dreams and visions within that community. I think a lot of them are similar. And that there's an earthquake that happens throughout Utah, that it causes mass destruction, that there is some sort of virus that happens that wipes out, you know, half or more of the population. Nuclear threats, Nuclear threats, We've heard them all.

John Dehlin [00:39:37] Yeah, keep going. I mean, just paint the picture.

Kim Coffin [00:39:41] It's very scary. Some of the dreams and visions that people have shared.

John Dehlin [00:39:47] The visions of glory is talking about like Salt Lake being flooded, like six foot sprouts of water coming out of the earth.

Josh Coffin [00:39:54] The volcano thing in Yellowstone was always one that we heard a lot about living in Idaho and we're, you know, in the areas we lived in.

Kim Coffin [00:40:00] So just imagine any terrible natural disaster that you can times 10, like what is going to happen that would be so terrible that it just wipes out our infrastructure. And suddenly we have to live off only the resources that are within our home.

John Dehlin [00:40:16] And our government, and our government is

Kim Coffin [00:40:19] probably gone as well.

John Dehlin [00:40:21] Marauders are, you know, everywhere killing people mercilessly.

Kim Coffin [00:40:25] And that was really one of the ones that, that stuck with me was this fear of, well, if everything breaks down and we're stuck in our home and we're only living off of food storage and everyone knows that we have

John Dehlin [00:40:37] food storage and everyone else didn't prepare

Kim Coffin [00:40:40] and they are not prepared because they're not living off, they're going to come because. Yes. And one of the phrases on a vow is if you are pre prepared, ye need not fear. And that was something that my father said all the time. And I think again a coping mechanism for him to not have to feel fear, which fear is very painful and unsettling, was to prepare. So buying all of these material goods to make yourself feel better. So in our home it was not just food, it was like toilet paper. And

Josh Coffin [00:41:19] can I tell them about all the stuff I was talking about and

Kim Coffin [00:41:21] the women's hygiene, like any sort of thing that you might need over the next year, it's cigarettes, alcohol and cigarettes

Josh Coffin [00:41:28] restored in excess in the basement.

Kim Coffin [00:41:30] Because you would need to have those things to barter, not necessarily for yourself, but if your neighbor who does something, I didn't know that if he has something, then you need to have cigarettes so that you can trade with him

Josh Coffin [00:41:43] for his pork or his lamb or his whatever or whatever it is. If they have addictions, right? So if they have addictions like to alcohol and cigarettes, that you would be the wild west leader, right. Of you'd be the trade center basically. And you have the guns to defend yourself, you have the self made ammo and you have all the things you can barter with.

John Dehlin [00:42:03] Wait, you're making your own ammo?

Kim Coffin [00:42:05] Oh yes.

Josh Coffin [00:42:06] Oh yeah. That's the first thing I learned when

Kim Coffin [00:42:07] I Got to their house, the machine press. And we all know how to use it because you will need to reload and learn how to make your own.

John Dehlin [00:42:14] Are these shotguns or actual rifles?

Kim Coffin [00:42:17] Every kind of gun you can imagine is every gun. He has a huge gun case filled with guns. And we learned from the time, probably under age 8, he started taking us shooting so that we would learn how to use a gun and that we needed to be comfortable with it. I was never comfortable with it as a child. That was very unsettling to be forced to shoot guns and to learn about how to defend yourself.

Josh Coffin [00:42:44] He also added food storage when we got married.

John Dehlin [00:42:47] Wait, really quick. Assault rifles level kind of guns, you

Kim Coffin [00:42:51] know, more I don't. I'm not super familiar with everything.

Josh Coffin [00:42:54] Pistols, shotguns, all kinds of rifles. And then definitely the AR15, AK47 type modules. He'd have all of that and he would build them. And this is kind of common in Idaho, where they usually resided. It was in Idaho in the last decade. But you know, building your own AR15, right. From the different parts dealers, that's a big deal. And going out and shooting, I mean, some of the time that was the first activities we did is part of me being part of your family was to go out and shoot and to hold the big one. And he loved how scared I was. He thought it was. I grew up with scouts, so I had shotguns and stuff, but a.50 caliber. Oh, I don't know if he got that one out, but. Yeah, not with me, but maybe with you there.

Kim Coffin [00:43:35] There were a lot of guns and it caused me a lot of fear as a child.

Josh Coffin [00:43:38] A lot of safes, a lot of huge storage for guns.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:41] Can I ask, just like it sounds

Kim Coffin [00:43:44] expensive, it definitely is an expensive hobby or thing to be doing because there's

John Dehlin [00:43:52] tents and trailers too, right?

Kim Coffin [00:43:54] Yes. And we had lots. Yes. It was not just the food storage, it was all the things that you would possibly need if you have to. Also, the idea was you wouldn't just be living in your home if everything happened. Ideally after a period of time, you would be called out because there's this idea of the 144,000.

John Dehlin [00:44:14] Okay. Did you say called out?

Kim Coffin [00:44:16] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:44:16] Okay. So I'm going to just give a shout out to my friend, Lauren Mathias Johnson. Lauren Johnson Matthias. But she runs a YouTube channel called Hidden True Crime. She's been covering preppers, Lori Valachad Dabel and all this stuff for a long time. And she said that one of the really interesting things associated with your dad, who was one of the leaders, co founders of avow. Right. Was this idea of a call out. And she asked me to ask you whether your dad came up with the idea of the call out, whether that was an AVOW thing or whether that predated your dad and maybe just describe what it is as well.

Kim Coffin [00:45:04] Yeah, I was trying to gain some additional insight into that before we came because I'm not positive where that idea comes from. I remember it being repeated so many times growing up. This idea of a call out and

John Dehlin [00:45:16] then 10 tell us what the call out is.

Kim Coffin [00:45:18] So from my understanding, and I may not, I did not dive as deep as some of the people in this community did. So I probably have a limited knowledge when it comes to this. My understanding was that some of these terrible things would happen in the world and they would be natural disasters that would happen. Multiple natural disasters would happen. And then the people that were the most righteous in the LDS Church would be called out after a certain amount of time to live in tent cities. So you needed to have everything ready to go live in this tent with your family. So you would be bringing your food storage, from what I understood, to the tent city, someone would come with a big truck and you would load it all up and we would all be taken away. And it would only be the most righteous. It wouldn't. Like our whole neighborhood was Mormon. But all of those Mormons would not

John Dehlin [00:46:15] be called out because they weren't righteous enough.

Kim Coffin [00:46:18] Because they were not righteous enough.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:19] They were not top tier.

Kim Coffin [00:46:21] Yes. They were not living the higher law again. Like, you have these scrupulous ideas that are just so harmful. But I didn't question it growing up because the leader of my home was telling me these things and I trusted him.

Josh Coffin [00:46:38] The number of times in our marriage where she's asked me, is that something you remember from your Mormon story? I'd say, no, that's not something that I ever heard of. Or.

The Callout Doctrine and Prepper Community in Idaho

John Dehlin [00:46:49] So your dad believed that you guys had to prepare to end up at a tent city and to be able to transport all your storage and everything?

Kim Coffin [00:46:58] Yep.

Josh Coffin [00:46:59] Bug out bag out.

John Dehlin [00:47:01] What are bug out bags?

Josh Coffin [00:47:02] Did he talk about bug outs? Like just being ready to go at any time, having a vehicle gassed and ready and a bug out bag with all the essentials and, you know, a majority of things you could quickly grab

Kim Coffin [00:47:12] and always being prepared. Like, we could never let the. We could never let the fuel in our cars go low. Like it couldn't go under half a tank. Wow. My mom would always let her school, though. But my father always Kept above half a tank just in case of gas. Because you never know what might happen and you need to be prepared at any moment, at any moment.

John Dehlin [00:47:34] It just sounds like a really stressful way to live.

Kim Coffin [00:47:38] It was. And expensive and very expensive. And I cannot tell you the number of people who have contacted me after we have left Mormonism to let me know. Just like heartbreaking situations where they've seen either themselves or their families have gone and cashed out their retirement and they've used all of their money, it just like breaks my heart. They've used all of this money to buy all of these preparedness supplies so that they can be ready for this call out that they hope they're righteous enough to be a part of. And it's so painful to know that my father, it feels as though he's preying on these people.

John Dehlin [00:48:28] How so?

Kim Coffin [00:48:30] The fear mongering that goes on in this forum. And so as this forum owner, he does this thing called these group, group buy ins. And he will contact a company so say it's a tent manufacturer and he'll say he'll negotiate a deal like a wholesale order. If we have XYZ tents that we're going to purchase, can we get it for a lower price? So he'll do a group buy in. So say this month is the tent buy in. So everyone, you need to get your tent because we need to be ready for tent cities. And he's always doing these group buy ins and people are always spending money trying to get all of the things ready to be prepared.

John Dehlin [00:49:18] So your dad was monetizing this fear by stoking group purchases that he would take a profit from?

Kim Coffin [00:49:26] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:49:27] And you're pretty sure of that?

Kim Coffin [00:49:28] Oh, 100%. I would hear him tracking how much money he was making on each buyout and if it wasn't making enough money, he was visibly upset by it.

Josh Coffin [00:49:39] We probably should cover what AVOW is just viewers.

John Dehlin [00:49:42] Okay. We have to get there a thousand percent. Some of this is pre avow, right?

Kim Coffin [00:49:49] I'm not positive when he joined AVOW or when he got into the prepper community. I don't know where that originated from.

John Dehlin [00:49:57] So for you there wasn't a clear marker of like, whoa, Dad's doing Internet stuff now kind of thing?

Kim Coffin [00:50:02] Yeah, there was a clear. See when I.

John Dehlin [00:50:05] What are your earliest memories of him being involved in some sort of Internet based prepper stuff? Do you even have an early memory of that? Was it before college?

Kim Coffin [00:50:16] All throughout my life there was prepper stuff going on. So I don't Know which resources he was getting that information from?

John Dehlin [00:50:26] I guess when we're. Do you have earliest memories of him being a leader in the prepper community?

Kim Coffin [00:50:32] He didn't begin to be a leader in the prepper community until probably I was in like middle school because we ended up moving. So we lived in Colorado for a while. We lived in Arizona for a few years. And then while we were living in Arizona, he decided. That's when I know that he really got heavily involved in a vow. And that's when we moved to Rigby, Idaho, because that was one of the locations that would be ideal to be in when the callout happened.

John Dehlin [00:51:02] Why Ridby, Idaho? Was there a sense for where the call out tent cities would most likely be?

Kim Coffin [00:51:10] So Roger Young, the founder of avow, he had dreams and visions and he has several books. One of the books does specifically call out Yukon, which I believe is.

John Dehlin [00:51:26] Is Alaska.

Kim Coffin [00:51:28] No, I. I believe it was Idaho.

Josh Coffin [00:51:32] It's like Ryrie Rigby, remote Idaho, near Idaho Falls, between Idaho Falls and Rexburg. So southeastern Idaho, Idaho area.

Kim Coffin [00:51:41] It's so interesting.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:41] It's a little bit like Zion.

Josh Coffin [00:51:43] Well, they refer to it as Zion. I'm waiting for you to say that.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:45] Preparedness Zion.

Josh Coffin [00:51:47] He referred to it as Zion.

Kim Coffin [00:51:47] He referred to Rigby as this is Zion and this is where God needs us to be. So we are moving everything and we're gonna go live here. And it was not well received by the family, but that was what he decided to do. And again, I am not the expert on exact places. And also there are so many dreams and visions and they all have their own varying details. So I don't know exactly, but this

John Dehlin [00:52:14] AVOW founder guy named Roger K. Young.

Kim Coffin [00:52:16] Roger Young. Roger K. Young. He did have visions that he published.

John Dehlin [00:52:22] And so he's selling books. He's on the financial take.

Kim Coffin [00:52:25] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:52:25] Okay.

Kim Coffin [00:52:26] They are all profiting off of all authors fear mongering.

Josh Coffin [00:52:29] Your father's also an author?

John Dehlin [00:52:31] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:32] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:52:32] Okay. And you, you mentioned Young. Why I.

Kim Coffin [00:52:36] What was that?

John Dehlin [00:52:37] Roger Young. Is that what you said?

Kim Coffin [00:52:38] Roger K. Young. Why did. Oh, you had asked where we thought that might take place. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:52:43] In the Rigby area.

Kim Coffin [00:52:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:45] So you moved, y' all moved from Colorado and Arizona to Idaho?

Kim Coffin [00:52:50] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:52:51] And can you talk about like Idaho culture? Mormon prepper, Idaho culture.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:57] And just to bring it back to your story, how old were you when.

Kim Coffin [00:53:00] When we moved to Idaho? It would have been right after my freshman year. So during my freshman year was really when he got involved in the AVOW community and he moved up by himself to Rigby. My family.

John Dehlin [00:53:13] He left your family to go move to Rigby?

Kim Coffin [00:53:15] Yes, because he started working with Roger Young. They started some business that they thought would kind of be a get rich quick scheme, getting people out of debt. So they became business partners in that sense. And my family, my mom and my siblings, we all stayed in Arizona to finish out the school year. My mother was teaching. She did not want to move to Rigby, Idaho at all. She was very opposed to it. That was a huge source of contention between my parents. I really thought that they were going to get a divorce during that time because my father really leaned heavily into that prepping community.

John Dehlin [00:53:53] Where in Arizona? I'm sorry?

Kim Coffin [00:53:54] We were living in Lake Havasu City near California.

John Dehlin [00:53:57] Oh, okay.

Josh Coffin [00:53:58] A resort town. I think also part of this too is from Colorado to Arizona to Idaho, there were multiple failed businesses. Your dad is a serial entrepreneur, and he kept trying to make something work, make it rich. And I think after that last failure, Idaho was the next thing.

Kim Coffin [00:54:15] Right.

Josh Coffin [00:54:15] And so that's why there was some moves because. And your mom really held it together as a teacher with insurance. I think that's important too.

Kim Coffin [00:54:23] Definitely. She was always.

John Dehlin [00:54:25] Oh, so your mom was financially keeping the family afloat while your dad was. Your visionary dad, to quote the Book of Mormon, was pursuing all this Mormon prepper stuff and having failed businesses along the way.

Kim Coffin [00:54:37] Definitely.

John Dehlin [00:54:38] It reminds me of Joseph Smith a little bit, I'm not gonna lie.

Kim Coffin [00:54:41] And the Smith family and his mother was also financially helping us as well.

John Dehlin [00:54:46] Grandma, which your dad's mom or your mom's mom?

Kim Coffin [00:54:49] My dad's mom.

John Dehlin [00:54:49] Okay. Okay.

Kim Coffin [00:54:51] Yeah. She was always helping us out because there was just never quite enough. When he was doing his own businesses, there was a lot of financial struggles.

Josh Coffin [00:55:02] Do you want to get to anything in?

John Dehlin [00:55:03] Margi had a quick question.

Margi Dehlin [00:55:05] Yeah, I was just gonna. Just to bring it back to you for a minute. So growing up in this kind of state of survival, it just feels like there's, you know, you're in a constant place of fear and kind of a lot of cortisol as like a growing, developing human. So can you talk a little bit about if that impacted your identity formation? Like, I'm just thinking like a lot of childhoods, there's like, I don't know, you have hobbies or classes or you're on leagues or. And maybe you did have that. But I'm just curious, with your own self development, how did being in this place of just sort of very almost hyper vigilance to everything around you, how did that Affect you, your identity formation during those years?

Kim Coffin [00:56:03] That's a great question. It's interesting because I did have some very normal things growing up. Like, I was involved in sports, and I did cheerleading and gymnastics and a lot of those things, things I credit my mother with because she would kind of bring us back down to, like, a normal baseline. But then at the same time, I was struggling with these fears and anxieties of, like, does this all matter? Like, why am I doing these things if we're preparing for the end of times? Like, why even go to school? Why be on a cheerleading squad? What? It was really a struggle for my brain to understand how do you live in the real world? And also, how do you prepare for what's coming? Because everything in the real world just seems so meaningless when you're preparing for what's coming. And so I definitely struggled with that.

John Dehlin [00:57:01] And it sounds like you were saying your parents almost got divorced. So it sounds like your mom didn't have full buy in to your dad's beliefs and activities.

Kim Coffin [00:57:10] No, it was very much a patriarchal relationship where he was in charge of all of the decisions, and she was expected to go along with whatever he decided was best for our family. And my father also has dreams and visions. And so in our family, it was expected that he knew better than she knew and that we should always listen to what he. I don't know what he was being inspired to do or think.

John Dehlin [00:57:44] Okay, okay. So you move from kind of western Arizona to Rigby, Idaho. Is that right? Talk about Idaho. Rural Idaho, Mormon prepper culture. If you both kind of rolled your eyes and shook your heads when I mentioned that.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:58:05] Is it a different thing?

Kim Coffin [00:58:07] I can definitely say that I witnessed my father getting more extreme in his beliefs as we moved to Idaho. There was definitely a shift. So I would say my life before we lived in Idaho, he was very strict, very authoritarian, and believed in prepping, but nowhere to the extent that he did. Once we moved to Idaho, that was like. I almost see it as, like, these different sections of my life. And I have OCD a lot of times. OCD is genetic. I would think that maybe he has similar thought patterns that I do. Just based on some of the things that he said. I would say it seems like that really got a lot worse as he got into this AVOW website more heavily and started working with Roger. And yeah, the move to Idaho was rough. I think it put a lot of strain on my parents relationship because my mother didn't fully buy into all of the things that he was into that put a lot of stress on their marriage. It also put a lot of stress on how they were parenting us because they were not a united front on all of the things that they believed, and that was difficult. And. And Idaho, Rigby, Idaho is a very small town.

John Dehlin [00:59:28] How close is it to Rexburg?

Kim Coffin [00:59:30] 15 minutes.

John Dehlin [00:59:31] Okay, so this really is Rexburg. It is Rexburg area, yeah. And for those who don't know, there's. There's two main BYU's, Brigham Young Universities in. In Mormonism, one's in Provo. That's the main one, which is also very intense. But I think about. So. So BYU Idaho is in Rexburg. And I jokingly referred. And this may be perceived as disrespectful

Margi Dehlin [00:59:56] and sensitive, particularly right now this way.

John Dehlin [00:59:59] I'll just say Rexburg, Idaho is like ultra conservative Mormonism.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:04] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:00:05] Like, if you think Mormonism is conservative, Rexburg takes it next level. True.

Kim Coffin [01:00:10] It really does. It's interesting because they are both run by the same institution, BYU and BYU Idaho. And yet BYU Idaho subscribes to what feels like the idea of a higher law. They have more rules than BYU does. It is much more conservative. I mean, we definitely experience that in terms of modesty, clothes, modesty, clothing, grooming, behavior. It's definitely stricter to the point that my parents didn't necessarily want me to go to BYU Provo because it was too liberal.

Josh Coffin [01:00:42] The liberal school. And BYU being liberal is laughable. That's what they. Her dad would say, the liberals.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:48] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Intensifying Extremism and Modesty Culture in Rigby

John Dehlin [01:00:50] Okay. And when you say your dad got more intense, can you just. Is there anything that comes to mind in terms of how his behavior changed, moving to Rigby, Idaho, or is it hard to remember?

Kim Coffin [01:01:04] I would say he was stricter around specific things like the way I was dressing, like my modesty and the friends that I had and who we associated with. He was just.

John Dehlin [01:01:21] So folks know what you mean by dressing. What were the big things that he emphasized in the no no's and the okays? Because I don't imagine you were wanting to necessarily, in Mormon standards, dress super immodestly.

Kim Coffin [01:01:34] Yeah, I was never immodest by any means, but it was. There was more of a focus on what I was wearing and if it

John Dehlin [01:01:44] was modest and so which types of things.

Kim Coffin [01:01:49] So, like, I remember and I don't know that necessarily it was. Sometimes it's hard to separate. Were these my thoughts? Specifically on my own, were these his thoughts or ideas that he shared with me that influenced my thoughts? So I remember when we Moved to Idaho. We had. When we lived in Arizona, it was kind of like a beach culture sort of a feel, like we lived right near California, so it was just kind of laid back. And then we moved to Idaho, where it's very cold and people are a little bit more uptight sort of a feeling. I remember at one point, after church, going home and getting rid of all of the clothing that I wouldn't be able to wear garments under as a teenager.

John Dehlin [01:02:34] And for those who don't even know what garments are, like, what body parts are of concern.

Kim Coffin [01:02:38] So for a female wearing garments, you would have to about here on your shoulder, covered. So like a little undershirt.

John Dehlin [01:02:47] So no bare shoulders ever?

Kim Coffin [01:02:48] Yeah, so no bare shoulders, no tank tops. And even like a cap sleeve shirt would still need to be fairly modest because you're going to need to cover most of your armpit as well. And then your garment would. Your garment bottom would go from like just above your belly button to just above your kneecap if you were wearing them properly.

John Dehlin [01:03:08] So for shorts and for skirts, it meant what?

Kim Coffin [01:03:11] It meant wearing things that about touch the top of your kneecap as the longest as well as your shortest. That's the shortest?

John Dehlin [01:03:20] Sorry. That's the shortest, yeah. Sorry, yeah.

Kim Coffin [01:03:22] Shortest, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:23] Okay.

Josh Coffin [01:03:23] Even see below the knee, too. Right. I think below the knee was always kind of of the standard because you

John Dehlin [01:03:27] wouldn't want to push it, you know, to that point.

Kim Coffin [01:03:29] You wouldn't want to tempt someone's thoughts by showing too much of your knee caps.

John Dehlin [01:03:34] So. Yeah. What were you taught about why it was important to dress modestly, especially relative to young men?

Kim Coffin [01:03:40] Yeah, I was taught that I had control over the men's thoughts around me. And if I chose to wear something that was immodest, I was literally walking pornography for men around me. So those men did not have full ownership of their thoughts. I was in charge of their thoughts, and if I provoked them like that was a sin on me that I was accountable for. So I needed to act in a way my behavior needed to act in a way that wouldn't make their thoughts be immoral. And my dress needed to also look a certain way.

John Dehlin [01:04:16] And as a young Mormon woman who experienced scrupulosity or religious ocd, how was that for you?

Kim Coffin [01:04:23] That was difficult for me. I would take things a step further than they needed to go. I remember even fighting with my mother a little bit about this because she was not quite as intense about modesty as I was. And I remember her being like, kim, do you really need to Wear that undershirt under that top. And I'd be like, well, of course I need to wear this undershirt that's this big under this other top because I need to cover my body. And, you know, there was also this feeling of just being unsafe in your body and if it was covered, you were safer. Like, I remember just wearing multiple layers because it felt like my body isn't safe. And I know we spoke earlier before this podcast, I. There was sexual abuse in my childhood. And I think one of my coping mechanisms for making myself feel safe was to cover.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:25] Yeah.

Kim Coffin [01:05:26] So, yeah, wearing layers and being more modest. And then as we got married and I got older, I got even more modest. I had even more rules around what I could wear. Like, it was like, no kneecaps are showing. That's I started to have. Which again, goes back to this OCD scrupulosity viewpoint of living this higher law. Like, if the law for the general public within Mormonism is old knee, wear something to the knee. To the knee. Well, how can I be more safe? And how can I be more righteous to secure my place in the call out to secure my place in heaven? Like, what can I do to be more righteous?

Margi Dehlin [01:06:07] Yeah.

Kim Coffin [01:06:08] And create safety and security for myself?

Margi Dehlin [01:06:13] Yeah, that totally makes sense.

John Dehlin [01:06:18] Okay, so. So what. How did Rigby life end up being. Now I should say you were a freshman when you moved to Rigby.

Kim Coffin [01:06:28] The end of my freshman year, we moved to Rigby. So I started my sophomore year.

John Dehlin [01:06:33] And around what year was that?

Kim Coffin [01:06:35] So that would have been 2007. Yeah, 2006.

Josh Coffin [01:06:41] 2006.

Kim Coffin [01:06:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:42] Okay, so that's another six years before visions of Glory comes out. So this is still relatively. This is sort of pre heavy Mormon Internet prepper community.

Kim Coffin [01:06:53] But I would even say that before Visions of Glory was published, there were still other books that were similar to that.

John Dehlin [01:07:01] Any names come to mind?

Kim Coffin [01:07:02] So Roger K. Young, we spoke about him earlier. He had published a variety of different books and pamphlets and Chad Dabel had also published books. I don't know exactly what year Chad first published books. And I would also say, like, that's

John Dehlin [01:07:20] right, Chad Daybell's books.

Kim Coffin [01:07:21] Yeah. I would also say just because someone had publicly published a book in a specific year doesn't mean that they had not shared their vision or their story online in one of these prepper communities. Or they also, a lot of them would go and speak at different events. So those ideas were circulating long before Visions of Glory was ever publicly published. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:46] Does the name Avram Gileadi mean anything to you at all.

Kim Coffin [01:07:49] I don't recognize it. I don't think.

John Dehlin [01:07:51] Okay. We talked about him in a recent episode. The September 6th. These six scholars that were excommunicated. Avram Gileadi was the one ultra conservative, kind of fundamentalist one. He wrote a book about Isaiah in the end Times, was excommunicated. But Neal A. Maxwell got him rebaptized within a year of his excommunication. But he signs, he puts a blurb on the back of Visions of Glory. So he was an early End Times prepper, kind of, let's just say, inspirational grandfather, so to speak. But it sounds like Chad Dabel's books were influential.

Josh Coffin [01:08:28] Julie Rowe.

Kim Coffin [01:08:29] Julie Rowe had books as well. I also remember Sarah Monet. She had a. What do they call it, near death experience that she published a book about. And that one was one that my father sold in his bookstore as well. There was definitely a variety of authors that were publishing their near death experiences, their visions and their dreams of what the end of times would look like. So it was not just Visions of Glory.

John Dehlin [01:09:01] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:03] I'm curious if we were to then drop into your high school years and just kind of. Let's just say we could do your private kind of home self. But also like at high school, if we were just kind of drop into who you were, what, like what would we see in those years?

Kim Coffin [01:09:24] So throughout high school, I did choir, I did theater. I loved my extracurricular activities. What else did I do? I was always in like the advanced classes. There was a lot of pressure to be a top performer in our family and to be intelligent and to push ourselves. So lots of, lots of excellence. Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:53] Going on.

Kim Coffin [01:09:54] Yes. And I started taking college courses, I think my sophomore or junior year, so that by the time I had graduated, I had a little bit more than a full semester of college done. So what else did I do?

Josh Coffin [01:10:09] They're very over scheduled. Just the typical, like kind of overachiechical overachiever. Every single season has two or three activities at the same time.

Kim Coffin [01:10:17] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:17] So busy and also like just busy, busy, busy.

Josh Coffin [01:10:21] And I actually met Kim her senior year of high school.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:23] How about that? So that's.

Josh Coffin [01:10:24] I have a little insight to what that was like for her. Cause she was just in every play, she was in every choir she was in. Just. And then also the grades were very important. Perfect grades. Everything was about perfectionism. Right.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:37] Everything.

Kim Coffin [01:10:38] Really a huge theme of perfectionism throughout my entire life. Like I didn't feel like there was any room for error.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:46] Yeah.

Kim Coffin [01:10:46] Because error in my mind could lead to hell or damnation. Like any error could lead me off of the straight and narrow. So it needed to be as good as possible. And that's not to say that I was perfect. I definitely had my shortcomings and things that I struggled with, but there was always an attempt at perfectionism.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:08] And earlier you kind of talked about your childhood years feeling like when you were in your home, it was really difficult to feel safety at home and then finding it kind of in nature and being a little bit more outside your home. Was that true in high school too? And with all those activities and things, this. It's also kind of a strategy. It keeps you or distraction. It keeps you kind of out of the home. But was that feeling still present for you in your high school years too? Or how would you talk about that?

Kim Coffin [01:11:42] No, that's a really interesting question because so much changed for me when we moved to Idaho. My relationship with my mother had always been very distant and rocky until we moved to Idaho. And I think because she was struggling with my father and the intensity of his beliefs, that she latched more onto me and our relationship. And there was definitely a lot of triangulation within our family. So for someone who doesn't. Isn't familiar with that idea. It's the idea of when one or both parents brings a child into adult problems. So this for me looked like if my mom had a disagreement with my father, she would come to me and tell me everything she was feeling, tell me her anger, tell me her sadness, cry. And I was expected to comfort and console her for whatever was going on within her marriage. It also meant things that were not necessarily appropriate for a child were shared with me a lot of times. And I was expected to be able to act as a therapist for her. That was many times what my family expected me to do for all of them. And I was very much the peacemaker in my home. And I prided myself on always being able to comfort people and help them

Josh Coffin [01:13:01] emotionally regulate the people pleaser older daughter who not only helped comfort mom in all the marriage issues, but also took care of your siblings. And there was a lot of parentification where you took care of them as the older sister, the older sibling, and doing things as a parent.

Kim Coffin [01:13:20] And. Yeah, I think I got that wrong. I used the word triangulation, but I meant parentify. There was parentification. Sorry.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:26] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:13:28] I'm guessing both apply.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:29] I know, because actually triangulation is being brought into, you know, in between a disagreement between two people. Definitely brought into the dynamic, especially if

John Dehlin [01:13:39] you Felt any desire, obligation to maybe try and communicate with your dad as an advocate for your mom. Right.

Kim Coffin [01:13:49] And that put a lot of stress on my relationship with my father because I was seeing all of these negative views that my mother had about him and she would come and confide in me whenever they had an issue and then I would hold onto that anger because I have this justice complex that we've talked about where I want to make things right and everything has to be fair and I want everyone to feel safe and protected. And so I would hold onto a lot of emotions for her and then she at some point would make up with him, but would never tell me that they had made up or that they had apologized to each other. So I just kept all of this anger that I harbored for her, like I need to keep her safe. And yes, and that's hard as a child to be dealing with those feelings. But yeah, definite parentification going on because they were struggling to stay united as, as the adults.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:42] And okay, I mean looking at all that you're holding as a teen, your parents relationship and some triangulation there, then also helping out, it sounds like with your siblings and some parentification there where you're holding more responsibility likely than your age, you know, and then the overachieving side of trying to do all the things and do all the things brilliantly and with great excellence. Yeah, that's just. Did you have a sense of. Did it feel like a lot? I guess is my question. Were you exhausted? Were you so wired for what was being asked? Like what is. Was your. If you can go back and remember how did it feel to have to

Kim Coffin [01:15:32] hold all that you spoke earlier about my cortisol must have been really high and I think it really was. I was always on alert. I was always ready to act and to help and to serve and to meet anyone's needs in the family. And, and I prided myself on that. And I. And I truly loved helping people and I still do. It wasn't done in a healthy way necessarily, but I think when that's the way that you're raised, that just is your baseline. Your baseline is I'm always over committing, I'm always overextending. And so that's just what I'm used to feeling. And I would get sick a lot. I have dealt with a lot of health problems throughout my lifetime and so I think that was one of my body's ways of dealing with the stress of being everything for everyone and emotionally being there for so many people. So my body would just shut down. I would have these terrible migraines that started around the time that we moved to Rigby.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:35] And so interesting.

Kim Coffin [01:16:37] One of the ways I. When I was in therapy this. I've had a few therapists since we've left the church, and one of them pointed out how it seems as though my struggles with my health, it was really a way for my body to cope with the stress and the trauma that I was enduring. And if it shut my body down completely to the point where I couldn't get out of bed, then I didn't have to serve everyone and I didn't have to take care of everyone. And it could give me this, like, moment to rest from performing and from being everything.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:13] Yeah.

Josh Coffin [01:17:15] You were in this state for so many years. I think only until after leaving the church did you get to see some peace and say, this is actually a homeostasis for me.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:24] Yeah.

Josh Coffin [01:17:24] All those years of people pleasing, including as a young mother in the church. But you kind of got to look back and say, wow, I was just overscheduled, over committed. And I had. I would break down to be sick in order to heal and rest.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:40] That's right. It's like forced. Your body forced you.

Kim Coffin [01:17:43] But I think there's very common throughout Mormonism is this theme of conditional love. And so many of us are seeking that conditional love. And we do it through being high achievers. And whether that be education or whether that be at church, there's just. It feels like you're always looking for that next high and that next victory and the next award, and what am I going to do to earn that love and that praise? Because it doesn't come freely, especially when you have a large family. I think it's really difficult for parents to emotionally meet all of the needs of their children. So you have all of these children who are competing for attention and for love. And it can be so painful for children to not feel like they deserve unconditional love. There's this theme of always needing to compete.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:42] Absolutely. To earn it.

John Dehlin [01:18:44] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:18:47] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:49] Okay.

Josh's Background and High School Years

John Dehlin [01:18:51] So is like, let's just say we want to go up to the point of high school and then maybe check in with. With Josh just a little bit about his upbringing. Is there anything else you want to talk about? Your high school experience, your. Your testimony, your experiences at church and your experiences with your parents and. And all this Idaho Mormon neo fundamentalist prepperism stuff.

Kim Coffin [01:19:17] Is there anything you can think of? I mean, there's so many things to say, but

John Dehlin [01:19:23] like, once you. I'll just Say this once you moved Idaho, is your dad attending conferences? Is he meeting strange people? Is he becoming a leader? What are you noticing in terms of his activities related to prepperism and. Or the prepper community?

Kim Coffin [01:19:39] Definitely becoming a leader, meeting with new people, creating this community for himself where he was revered and respected. Something that Josh and I have spoken about was that he really didn't progress within Mormonism as quickly as many other men did. He wasn't getting these important callings. He. I mean, even at age, his late 50s, he was still not a high priest. A high priest. And so he went and he created this own world for himself where he was revered and praised, and he had this information that no one else had and people needed to come to him. And I thought it was so interesting, like, okay, we go to church and you don't have any high callings per se, but then you have this own community you've created where you are revered. And it feels very egocentric that it's like this juxtaposition to have these two different worlds that he resides in. But if it was ever questioned, it was like, oh, well, mainstream Mormonism, they don't know what I know. And one day, one day it's going to all work out and it'll be fair and everyone will realize I knew all these things and I should have been respected by them. So it was interesting to see that those two different worlds. Right.

Josh Coffin [01:21:01] Yeah.

Kim Coffin [01:21:02] Where he was kind of made fun of at church, really within our ward, a lot of times was made fun of for his extremist beliefs, or he would get in trouble with Salt Lake City. We would get letters that the things he was spreading were too intense or his ideology was not in alignment with. With the prophet. Really? Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:21:24] Okay. Can I ask about that?

Kim Coffin [01:21:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:21:26] Yeah. So obviously, we're not trying to claim that this is mainstream Mormonism, but it's a very large movement in especially Utah, Idaho, Arizona, Mormonism. So it's hard to thread that needle. But I was going to ask about, were your bishops into this? Were your other ward members? Did the church. In what ways did the mainstream Mormon corporate church show concern about your dad in those high school years? Was church discipline ever on the table that you know of, or was it like X percent of your ward was really into this stuff and it was just a sizable minority in your ward, or was it the majority in your ward? I'm curious about how that worked.

Kim Coffin [01:22:15] I would say a little bit of everything that you said. There were some people who really believed everything that he was teaching. And thought it was great and incredible and that he had this further insight and knowledge that no one else had. And then there were certain bishops who did not like what he was doing.

Josh Coffin [01:22:35] Also I feel like he also came into some success. Right. So he had the multiple failed businesses and then in Rigby through this forum, avow a membership forum. So lots of memberships, lots of enrollments really they bought the big, the big house in the neighborhood.

Kim Coffin [01:22:50] It really wasn't so successful financially though a lot of people think it was really successful because he lives in a really large home and he didn't purchase that home, your grandma. He moved us into a tiny two bedroom mold infested apartment. Claimed that he was making grundles of money and that we were going to be wild, wildly successful. My grandmother saw where we were living and about at this time my health problems really started to have an uptick.

John Dehlin [01:23:19] Because you're living in a moldy apartment in Rigby.

Kim Coffin [01:23:21] Yes. She came and she saw where we were living and she cried. She was like how could you do this to your family? How are you letting them live in these conditions? She went and she purchased a three story beautiful home and said this is going to be my vacation home. But why don't you move your family into this home until you find your own place to move, until you get on your feet with your business.

John Dehlin [01:23:44] This is your dad's mom again.

Josh Coffin [01:23:45] Yes, Grandma Margot.

John Dehlin [01:23:47] And remind me, you said that they joined the church.

Kim Coffin [01:23:50] So no, his, his father had joined the church with his new wife but his mother did not join the church.

John Dehlin [01:23:58] So no, she was not so man, was she concerned about it.

Kim Coffin [01:24:02] No, that was very, very concerned. Very concerned even like when he joined the church, she sent him pages and pages of what he called anti Mormon rhetoric, trying to let him know that it was a cult and that he shouldn't be joining this. And he laughed at his mother and I mean this was her only child and she stood outside of the temple on his wedding day like oh, so the pain that she went through, like to see him leaving everything that she had raised him with and joining this church and then she stands outside the temple on his wedding day like I just can't imagine the pain of a single mother with your only child not being in there on your wedding day.

Josh Coffin [01:24:47] She was really good to us. She always really cared a lot about you.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:51] And I think even witnessing though this, this next level belief system and you living like making active his, her son making active choices where you're experiencing harm, you know, that would just be heartbreaking.

John Dehlin [01:25:11] I'm taking it she's no longer alive.

Kim Coffin [01:25:13] No, she passed away.

John Dehlin [01:25:15] And do you have a sense for how she made her. I don't want to say fortune, but

Kim Coffin [01:25:20] her new husband, he had a boat

Josh Coffin [01:25:23] company, Lake Havasu City.

Kim Coffin [01:25:25] It was very successful.

Josh Coffin [01:25:26] Lots of boats in Lake Havasu City. She also was a big smoker and drinker. And one of the things I hated the most was that your dad would judge her so harshly for that, even though she financially supported him and his.

Kim Coffin [01:25:39] And paid for so many things.

Josh Coffin [01:25:40] Paid for so many things because she loved her grandkids. But he would, you know, mock her lack of belief in what he believes.

Kim Coffin [01:25:49] Again, that idea I shared with you, where the evil spirits enter your body, if you take, if you consume alcohol or if you have any substances, he would always bring it back to her. Like, look at her. She's this sick person who's addicted to drug or not drugs, but cigarettes and alcohol. And she allows these evil spirits to come into her body like, no one be like her. And she did have her shortcomings and things that she struggled with, but she also was always there financially to support him, and there was never any accountability on his side that he wasn't making enough to provide for his family.

John Dehlin [01:26:27] That's hard. Okay, so she was feeling like her son's getting swept up in a cult? Basically. Yes.

Kim Coffin [01:26:36] She was very concerned.

John Dehlin [01:26:37] Yeah, rightfully so. And so was she close to her grandkids through her?

Kim Coffin [01:26:43] Yeah. So the four of us, when we lived in Arizona, she played a more active role in our family.

John Dehlin [01:26:50] Because you were close to her?

Kim Coffin [01:26:52] I was not. Yes, physically close. She was very close with my twin brother. I was not super close with her growing up. We didn't become close until probably after I had had kids, is when we started.

Josh Coffin [01:27:04] When we got married.

Kim Coffin [01:27:05] Yeah. Once we got married, she adored Josh.

Josh Coffin [01:27:07] So she did a lot for us in our early years of marriage.

Kim Coffin [01:27:11] Very kind to us. What were we?

Josh Coffin [01:27:15] Well, at high school, I was trying to say that your dad was so respected in that neighborhood because it was the big house.

Kim Coffin [01:27:19] Yes.

Josh Coffin [01:27:20] And so his ward was very much like, you know, he has all the money. He has this forum. He has these online. Like, they resonated with that. They're also very impressed by him. Right. He was the one that donated money. He was the one that. And he had the flexibility to do so because the house was.

John Dehlin [01:27:35] Because he had no mortgage.

Josh Coffin [01:27:37] Right, right.

Kim Coffin [01:27:38] That's. That's helpful.

John Dehlin [01:27:39] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:39] Yeah.

Josh Coffin [01:27:40] So the business was thriving, and he loved that image of that. This is My house. And he didn't tell anyone that Grandma did that. But then the ward revered him as. And then he got into scouting a lot too. So during your high school years he was in that too.

John Dehlin [01:27:51] But I mean, I guess we were also exploring, and this is a common theme. Lauren said, and I think someone may have said this to Lauren Matthias, that if Chad Daybell had just been called as a bishop, you know, his wife and Laurie's kids may not be dead right now. That if this Tom Harrison guy, I guess he was called as a bishop. We'll probably air this after we talk about him. But it seems like a lot of this prepper movement is fueled by semi disenfranchised Mormons who are conservative but aren't getting through. Whether it's lack of connections or family members or cronyism or money. They're less educated, more rural and more lessen. Franchised, less empowered. And so this, this preparism can be a way to gain power through and near death experiences, claims of special powers and. Or through hyper conservativism or community building or book publishing.

Kim Coffin [01:28:59] Yeah, and I would even say a lot of people who are in this group are highly educated. It isn't just. I think sometimes people associate those in a cult as being less intelligent or maybe being poor. And a lot of them are well off and well educated and you would think have great reasoning skills and critical thinking skills. And yet the research that I've done suggests that a lot of very highly educated people become victims of cults. And that's so interesting. Like Dr. Stephen Hassan, he talks a lot about that how so many of the people within Mormonism are highly educated, they're very intelligent and some of them are very well off. And yet because we are so trusting, we can sometimes not question things and

Josh Coffin [01:29:58] conditioned to sort of fall into the patriarchal line of things. And this is how it's always been. Men have always been in charge. They have the authority.

Kim Coffin [01:30:06] When we just believe what we're told, we don't necessarily question. So some of the people in that group are. I've been surprised to learn how much education they have and how well read they are. It's like no shortage of reading and researching and yet that seems to further their belief system. Like I am so intelligent and this is what I believe and I've done all the work to back it up.

John Dehlin [01:30:33] Yeah. Jonathan Haidt reminds us that sometimes being educated or intelligent provides you with more ability to rationalize and to employ confirmation bias. Yes, definitely makes you better at that. So you'd be speculating, but do you have any idea why your dad wasn't called as a bishop or stake president or bishopric member or stake presidency member? I wouldn't expect you would know. But if he was highly respected, looked like he was wealthy and affluent. Yeah.

Kim Coffin [01:31:02] And I wouldn't say he was highly respected within our wards. It was certain people who also believed in prepping. He was highly respected amongst those specific people.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:13] It's like in his created community, in the world that he has created for

Kim Coffin [01:31:17] himself, very highly respected in mainstream Mormonism. People are questioning why he's being so intense, why he has these fringy beliefs. So I would say definitely the respect was not within our ward as a whole. It was the people who believed in that, those ideas.

John Dehlin [01:31:35] And this is a theme I'm going to. My viewers and listeners are just going to need to be patient about. But as someone who, you know, has been associated more with the left of Mormonism, of progressive Mormonism, of liberal Mormonism, you know, the church has been watching our people for decades, for half a century or more like a duck on a June bug, as they say. Excommunicating us, hounding us, terrorizing us in some ways. But it seems like the church has just decided for so long to give the right fringe a pass. And for some reason people like your dad, the church would let alone even though in some ways his and others beliefs might be more heretical, more fringe, and I would argue certainly more damaging to people's lives within the church.

Kim Coffin [01:32:34] I mean deadly really. They have seen that happen and it's very concerning.

Josh Coffin [01:32:41] Mormonism fosters a culture where the right wing rhetoric, the right wing conspiracy theories can just thrive and there seems to be very little punishment for it. There was a. There's a conference your dad used to go to called the Expo Firm where the speakers would be like Chad Daybell, Tim Ballard, Roger K. Young, Rodney Meldrum. Yeah, Meldrum was another name that I still on some of those old sort of flyers for those kind of. And that's. Those are the types of people speaking, the ones with visions, ones with. And Tim Ballard is part of that. And the church has finally spoken out about some of that. But it is behind on going after the right. It's always been going after the left. So I thought the right and Mormonism were synonymous my whole life. Like you were supposed to be my grandpa was. You can't be a Democrat and a Mormon. Right. That was kind of how I was raised.

Kim Coffin [01:33:31] So.

John Dehlin [01:33:32] Yeah. Okay. Okay. So through your senior year of high school, Kim and your maiden name was Parrot, is that right?

Margi Dehlin [01:33:41] Perrette.

John Dehlin [01:33:41] Perrette. Okay. Your dad was just becoming more and more prepper famous, and was that causing more and more stress between your parents? Was he becoming even more strict by the time you're a senior? Where are things with your family? With family health, your mental health and happiness?

Kim Coffin [01:34:03] Yes. So he was more strict, but also I would say he felt very distant at times too. He was physically present, emotionally very checked out, because all that really mattered was his online businesses. And avow was not the only thing that he was running. He was. He also has another forum that he runs for snowmobiling. So he was just working nonstop. And I think, like, as we've done therapy and as we've left the church, we've realized there's a lot of dissociation in our family. And I think a lot of times people imagine that dissociation looks a certain way. Like it looks like laying on the couch and scrolling on your phone. And yet dissociation can feel like you have a motor inside of you running and you just go, go, go, almost like a machine. And I would say that he was highly dissociated and his dissociation was working and just non stop. What can I do? What can I do? How can I be on my computer? How can I be making more money? And I think there's a lot of fear there too. Always feeling the need to come up with the next big idea to make ends meet. But definitely very dissociated throughout those high school years.

Dating, Sexual Shame, and Bishop Interviews

Margi Dehlin [01:35:24] Okay, I have a question with regard to you, particularly in the years where you might date, you might have the option of dating and you shared with us about your sexual abuse. If you were going to kind of talk about the different ways that impacted you, I believe you spoke about it a little bit with regard to perfectionism, there being a bit of a tie there. But do you want to. Do you want to take that on at all and talk about if the impact on you during those years in particular thoughts you had or behaviors or the way you kind of coped,

Kim Coffin [01:36:09] That's a good one. So I started dating before I turned 16, which was an issue within my family. My mother at the time was fine with that and my father was very much not okay with it.

John Dehlin [01:36:25] That's a huge no, no.

Kim Coffin [01:36:26] Yeah, yeah. And it was, it was so hard because I had explained earlier, my father's living in one state and my mother's living in another state, and they are not aligned at all with their religious beliefs. So she's pushing really this narrative of like, go and do whatever you want to do. And he's really pushing this idea of purity and virtue. And I'm living with her. So I'm like, well, I guess I will date. And at the same time, I'm just this love starved child, this love starved teenager who doesn't have unconditional love and is always looking for the next person that can provide me with that feeling of safety. And so I think I turned a lot to dating as a way to feel fulfilled and as a way to get those emotional needs met.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:15] That makes so much sense. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:37:19] So that caused tension with your parents.

Kim Coffin [01:37:22] Definitely.

John Dehlin [01:37:23] And was that significant for you or, you know.

Kim Coffin [01:37:27] Yeah, it was very difficult, like being the child in that and not knowing necessarily what I should do, like, how do I solve this conflict between them? Because I hated there being any conflict at all in our home. Conflict is of the devil, is what I was taught. And so it was like, how do I fix this? But also how do I? I mean, I am a dissociator as well. And so I think it's like all about avoiding those painful emotions that you're dealing with. So getting out of the house is like this way that you avoid those painful emotions. It's like, go find your friends and hang out with them or go find a boy who cares about you because that'll make you feel better. There's a lot, a lot of that. So I did date a lot and there were a lot of disagreements between my parents.

John Dehlin [01:38:19] So we often cover Mormon shame as a way the church gains power and control over people. Is there anything you want to share about Mormon shame? Bishops, you know, up through your senior year of high school, or even your

Margi Dehlin [01:38:36] own, like your own view of your worthiness or not?

Kim Coffin [01:38:42] Yeah, so I always struggled with feelings of worthiness because like we mentioned earlier, there was sexual abuse throughout my childhood. There were. By multiple people. This is one of those hard ones. When you have OCD and intrusive thoughts. It can be so painful to feel shame because it's just like you're stuck in this revolving cycle of shame and these intrusive thoughts just keep coming, like over and over, and it can be so painful. So some of the abuse that happened happened before I turned 8 and then it also continued after I was 8. And so after I was 8 and I was accountable for everything that was going on. I had just this like impending doom feeling that I'm going to go to hell because I am now accountable and this person must be abusing Me, because I've done something to warrant that or to make them feel like they should be doing that. And. I want to explain these things without giving too much detail and still protecting myself, if that makes sense. Um, When the people that you expect to keep you safe do not keep you safe, it can be very difficult. And so I didn't always know what was normal and what was abuse. It was hard for me to tell the difference. And that put me in a lot of situations where I was able to be abused, because I was really the perfect victim. I was very shy. I was very scared. I did not ever stand up for myself. And that Crete's a great abuse victim. I had no understanding of sexuality. We didn't talk about body parts. We just spoke about, if you are dressed immodestly, you are pornography. You are. Sorry. You are accountable for what their thoughts are about you. And so all throughout my childhood, I just had this terrible feeling like, I will not be with my family in heaven. And I think maybe that's part of. You asked when did my OCD really peak? And I think it was around the time I got baptized, because it was like, well, if I can't be with my family, I'm at least gonna do everything right that I can to cover up or to try to offset the scale, balance it out a little bit because of this abuse that's happened because of. And I didn't know it was abuse at the time, so I wasn't framing it as like, this thing has happened to me, and I'm not accountable, or I'm not. It's not my fault. It was like, no, this thing happened to me, and I fully have to own it, and it's my fault that it happened.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:01] Yeah.

Kim Coffin [01:42:05] And I really think the OCD was a result of the abuse.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:13] Yeah.

Kim Coffin [01:42:30] It's hard as an adult going back and looking at that little child and, you know, having little girls of my own. And wanting to keep them safe and protect them from what happened to me. But I grew up in a home where victims were always doubted. You know, if my parents heard of a case of abuse, it was always, what did she do to deserve that? And so I stayed quiet. I never told a soul. To the point that I didn't even tell my husband about it until about two years ago.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:18] Oh.

Kim Coffin [01:43:19] Because I had so much shame, I thought he might make it to heaven. I won't make it to heaven, but I'll at least do everything in my power to get my kids there, make sure my husband gets there. But I Might not be there with you in the highest. In the highest glory at least. But I'll try.

John Dehlin [01:43:50] Sorry. We're so, so sorry.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:00] There's just so much to hold for so long. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:05] And it just seems to be so prevalent in this church.

Kim Coffin [01:44:09] The more that we have discussed with other people who have left the church, the more we have found how prevalent this is. And it's so heartbreaking. Yeah, it really is. There is so much sexual abuse that goes on within the Mormon Church that goes unreported. And even if for many women, even when they did go to their bishop or they did tell someone about what was happening, it was just swept under

Josh Coffin [01:44:38] the rug or to a lawyer firm, not to an authority. Which. Arizona. And all of that.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:47] Yeah. Yeah. Right.

Josh Coffin [01:44:49] Kirk and McConkie,

Margi Dehlin [01:44:55] Thank you for sharing that.

John Dehlin [01:44:57] Yeah, thank you for sharing. And then circling back to this topic of kind of shame and worthiness, did that. I imagine it affected your dating and those high school years where bishops are trolling for your unworthiness, so to speak.

Kim Coffin [01:45:22] Yeah, definitely.

John Dehlin [01:45:28] If you want to share. I'm not.

Margi Dehlin [01:45:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:45:30] Like only what you feel like you want to share for your story. Yeah, we, we have no desire to pry. Right.

Kim Coffin [01:45:37] I. I understand.

John Dehlin [01:45:39] And we talked about this beforehand. These were themes you wanted to talk about.

Kim Coffin [01:45:43] So, yes, there was a lot of shame. And I did date and I did do some things that were not allowed according to Mormonism. And so there were times that I went to the bishop to repent of those things. And I was. What was the book that I was given?

John Dehlin [01:46:07] The terrible book, Miracle of Forgiveness. Miracle of Forgiveness by Spencer B. Kimball.

Kim Coffin [01:46:12] Just absolutely heart wrenching, terrible book that

John Dehlin [01:46:15] is no longer what messages from that book written by a Mormon prophet, Spence W. Kimball. What were some of the main takeaway messages that you found to be harmful?

Kim Coffin [01:46:25] So it's been years since I've read it, so I don't specifically write even vaguely the themes, but I just remember feeling so filled with shame. And there was this idea, Gosh, I think it taught about the idea of godly sorrow versus worldly sorrow. And so I was always trying to decide, like, was my sorrow great enough? Was it godly enough? Sorrow versus worldly sorrow? Am have I been forgiven? And something that people with scrupulosity struggle with a lot is they want to confess all the time because they always feel like they have sinned in some way or if they have a bad thought, like, I need to go confess. And so I did go confess a lot of times and sometimes there were not really things I needed to confess. And other times, according to Mormonism and those standards there were. And I remember one of the bishops, he told me one time that if you repent of something and then you make that same or a similar mistake, that it undoes all of your previous repenting.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:36] Yeah.

Kim Coffin [01:47:37] And I remember that was like so heart wrenching. I was just like, oh. Because I remember going in one time and he was like, you need to repent of everything in your whole life, all of these transgressions. And every time I was going in, I was saying like, okay, XYZ has happened in this, with this relationship, with this person I'm dating, but really I'm holding the weight of the sexual abuse every time I'm going in. Yeah, but I'm not speaking about it. It's like I'm going in and I'm repenting and I'm crying and I'm praying and feeling all that shame and guilt. And so much of it was coming from my childhood knowing that I couldn't. I couldn't say the words out loud because I just. I just felt like I couldn't get those words out. I tried so many times. I could never get them out. I was. I couldn't do it. So when I would repent for other things, it was like I was really just reliving the pain of what had happened as a child. And that was hard. Just.

Josh Coffin [01:48:44] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:44] It also seems like that idea of going back in your life and asking for forgiveness for all those, all the things throughout your. That does feel like reinforcement for scrupulosity as well.

Kim Coffin [01:48:58] Definitely.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:49:03] Yeah. Really quickly, just to tie in kind of the Jody Hildebrandt side of this and all these Maurice Harker and all these therapists that are now going to prison for abusing their clients when they set themselves up as the cure to sex addiction. Like this idea that's just so disturbing in Visions of Glory. This idea that demons are running around the world trying to penetrate your brain so that they can make you look at porn or have sex and do evil things. Combined with the teachings that not just Spencer B. Kimball, But David O. McKay, Heber J. Grant, Ezra Taft Benson, even Gordon B. Hinckley. For decades, the Mormon church prophets taught that sexual sin is next to murder in severity. And I found at least five Mormon prophets that said in one way or another, better dead than unclean. And I found quotes where Mormon prophets say, any good Mormon parent would rather their kid be dead than violate. You know, have premarital sex, basically. And you combine this, you Know this, this pathologization of healthy normative sexual behavior with calling it demonic and next to murder and severity. And then demons are all around you at all times trying to penetrate your brain and make you sin. It just amps it up to this level of intensity. And I would say obsession where you, you are more likely than not going to create more sexual dysfunction than you're ever gonna, ever gonna cure. In other words, you create the sexual dysfunction and the sexual acting out or make it far worse than it ever would have been if just normalized and said, hey, try not to do that stuff. Try not to. You know, there's risks in sexual activity. There's, you know, porn and masturbation aren't great, you know, and you just kind of left it at that versus the obsession around sex. It seems to be almost farming and cultivating abuse and dysfunction along with the guilt and shame. And I wonder if that. And that Jody Hildebrandt had a $3 million home, you know, profiteering off of intense sexual shame. And she was inspired by Tom Harrison and the book Visions of Glory and she was woven into this and Tim Ballard and all the sexual dysfunction we're seeing there. Like, it just seems like this Mormon neo fundamentalist prepper community is like, has way more than its share of sexual abuse and dysfunction. Even though it appears it presents as being obsessed, obsessed with avoiding it and getting rid of it. That's a big, long setup for. Is that your experience or am I just making all that up in my head?

Kim Coffin [01:52:15] No, I think you made some great points. There is so much repression within Mormonism and then even more within that prepper community, and I think it creates a ton of sexual dysfunction. And then all of a sudden you get married and you're supposed to have sex when it's not going normally. You're wondering what's wrong and it's like, well, it's been shamed your whole life and you've tied. You've negatively associated all of these things with sex. And all of a sudden it's supposed to be this beautiful power of God that we have. It's like, well, how do you go from everything being so shameful and so terrible and suddenly a light switch just clicks and it's beautiful and it's of God and how do you make that switch in your brain? And I. So many people in the, in the church are struggling with that.

Josh Coffin [01:53:10] Yeah, it's also a taboo topic. It's just not. You're not allowed to talk about sex. Like, you don't have education around it. You don't know what it is. You, you just, you're just married and suddenly it's okay. It's like, well, you haven't even discussed it. Like, what is it? How does it work? Like, what's a. You know, it's all bad. Just don't talk about it.

Margi Dehlin [01:53:27] That's right.

Josh Coffin [01:53:28] And suddenly it's okay. And there's a lot of shame around addiction and the tie to sex, like addiction, like pornography and all these, these programs, they put a lot of men in that just, it just ties a lot to that community too. You see that Quite a bit.

John Dehlin [01:53:43] So, so what did all this Mormon toxic sexual shame by the time you're graduating? How did it. Was it. Did it impact you in material ways? And if so, how?

Kim Coffin [01:53:58] Definitely. But by the time I was graduating, we were getting engaged and married. So just directly into our relationship and our marriage.

John Dehlin [01:54:08] Okay, okay. All right.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:10] As it goes, right?

John Dehlin [01:54:12] Yeah, yeah.

Josh Coffin [01:54:13] She was 18, I was 21.

John Dehlin [01:54:14] When you got married.

Josh Coffin [01:54:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:54:16] Oh, my goodness.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:54:17] Yeah. Okay. Well, Josh, I, Margi and I are like texting, like, wait a minute, we haven't brought Josh in yet. And it's tough because, like, you know, I think we're covering really important stuff. So let's, let's shift and just say, what about your upbringing? Do you want to share that weaves into this story?

Josh Coffin [01:54:37] Sure. Yeah. So I was.

John Dehlin [01:54:39] And thank you, Kim, for being willing to share such sensitive stuff.

Josh Coffin [01:54:44] Yeah. Very brave. Very brave and courageous. So I was. My parents went to byu, both of them. My dad played basketball at Ricks and Rick's College, which is now BYU Idaho. And my parents met at BYU or at Ricks and then went to BYU together to graduate. Because at the time, BYU Idaho at Ricks was a two year college. So I grew up in the church. I'm the oldest of four, two younger brothers and a younger sister. Born in Utah, raised in Idaho. So when I was in kindergarten, I moved to Idaho Falls, Idaho, and spent my whole childhood and teen years in Idaho Falls. So I was very familiar with Rexburg and BYU Idaho, the university just 30 miles north. And Idaho is definitely had a big impact. The culture of Idaho, Mormonism had a big impact on me growing up. I was raised in Scouts. I was raised with guns. I was raised with all of the sort of intense conservative beliefs around being. Just being in Idaho. Right. It's just kind of. It's a, It's a higher law. Salt Lake City was a liberal place that we would visit on weekends to go shopping. But growing up as A kid. I. I was the oldest, so I was all about being the people pleaser. I remember feeling pressure from my mother to bear my testimony at a young age, to make her proud, because she would beam with pride if I would go up and bear my testimony. So I, at a young age, would get that conditional love. And so always wanting to please my parents and making sure that they approved of me. We grew up in a pretty contentious household. A lot of yelling. I remember specifically my mom yelling and swearing at us to get ready for church, which was kind of odd to me because, like, we're going to church to. To not swear. And so I grew up in Idaho Falls. Everyone was Mormon. It felt like it was really highly. I wouldn't say 70, 80%. My whole neighborhood. I mean, there would be one on a street that was not lds.

Kim Coffin [01:56:56] What was the joke they made? Everyone's Mormon, and if they're not, they're just inactive.

Josh Coffin [01:56:59] Exactly. That was my high school. The seminary building was just flowing. It was a lot of Mormons. So in a sense, I grew up in this, and I was. It was three brothers. We were all two years apart. And then my sister didn't come until much later. And so I grew up with boys, and being a boy in the church honestly wasn't a terrible thing. I hate to say it that way, but it's true. I mean, I was. I remember when I became a deacons quorum president, I had authority and power at 12. Right.

John Dehlin [01:57:31] I had more than your. More than the grown women, more than my own mother.

Kim Coffin [01:57:35] Yeah, Right.

Josh Coffin [01:57:36] Which is so bizarre. Right. Or any of the women in the ward. Yeah. And so at 12 years old, I was handed a manual of how to oversee this at a deacons quorum of 24.

John Dehlin [01:57:47] That's big.

Josh Coffin [01:57:48] Big, big quorum. In fact, we broke into two groups, oftentimes into 12 and 12. And as Deacons quorum president, you know, But I was always sort of the perfect kid. Right. Like, always getting that conditional love. I grew up. I'm the oldest of 18 grandkids on my mom's side, 18 cousins. And as the oldest, there was a lot of pressure to be the first in everything, to go first, to do everything first. I had a couple of aunts that were very overzealous, to put it nicely, and would often tell me, pull me aside, that all of my kids, all nine of my kids are looking up to you, all four of my kids are looking to you. And I just. That was a lot of pressure. So not only from my own mother, but also from this, you know, 18 grandkids on my mom's side of the family, my dad grew up a little bit more Jack Mormon. My mom was very, very devout. And so my dad always taught me from a young age, and I'll always be grateful for this, that you can find good in anyone. And so he'd often. I'd have a few non Mormon friends and he would always welcome them regardless of beliefs. Whereas my mother was very. You don't date non Mormon girls. We don't have non Mormon friends. So I kind of had that. That caused a lot of problems in their marriage where my dad was never righteous enough for my mom. And so she looked to me, there was some parentification there to be the future of the house if we go back to the game of Thrones Lord of the house. But my authority and power right as a 12 year old boy. And I would be what my dad was not, which always, always threw me because I love my dad and he was a great dad and I thought he was enough, but my mom never did. And so that dynamic was always really hostile as a kid growing up where my dad was never enough. Part of it had to do with the fact that my mom worked. So my parents are both teachers and educators. And I think my mom resented working. I mean, she lived in a neighborhood where 99% of the women did not work. Very few moms worked unless they were a single mom or something. So she had to work. And I think there was some resentment there that why don't you make enough as a teacher so that I don't have to work? And so he always felt like he had to overcompensate by being a really good dad around the house and helping out with chores, which in turn helped me learn to be a great man later with domestic labor. But there was a sense of shame. My dad was never, he never made enough, he never was righteous enough. And I was, I was this prized trophy or golden child son that in my mom's eyes, right, there were a lot of narcissists.

John Dehlin [02:00:34] You were Nephi a little bit.

Josh Coffin [02:00:36] A little bit. There was a little narcissistic sort of traits of my mother and to me, like I'm this son that will change the family or that I'll be enough. And it also caused resentment between me and my father. I was gonna say, I think he was reminded of. And my mom facilitated that. I think she would put me in his face like, why can't you do. Because I loved rules. I was a people pleaser. I Loved lists. I loved even questioning my dad. Dad, why don't you lead family home evening? Why don't we do scripture study? Why aren't you the one that. And he had, you know, he did all the things. He checked all the boxes, but he did the bare minimum. And looking back, I'm actually grateful for having the two experiences. But at the time, it was hard because I'm just a kid trying to do my best and be enough for my mom and make her proud, make my grandfather proud, make all these cousins proud. There was so much pressure. My mom's father was very wealthy and had a lot of influence on this family of these 18 grandkids. And so there was a lot of talk of careers at age 12. Wow. Careers. And where would you go to school and when would you leave on your mission? So all of my teen years were spent in that. I was also kind of a nerdy kid. I loved. I loved Scouts. I loved. I loved, like, Harry Potter, and I loved Star wars, and I loved math. I was a big math fan. And my dad was one of those kind of jock characters. So he played basketball at Rick's, and sports were what mattered. And I was kind of a nerdier kid. I still did all the sports, though. I played all the sports. I did exactly what I was supposed to. But oftentimes was sort of shame for being, like, the Duty to God award kid. I got my Eagle Scout at 14, and so that was a big milestone for me. And that was early. We would go to Scout camp, and I would pride myself on getting the most merit badges at Scout camp of my entire troop. I remember I had a Scout master that was like. And Josh had 14 merit badges in five days. And I just remember being exhausted, like, trying to not only please my mom, but also these Scout masters and kind of being the golden child within that. But there was all this contention at home. So I was always confused with, like, we're presenting one way at church. We're always there. We're always pretending that everything's nice. But at home, there was all this yelling and all this contention. And so I was always kind of confused by why are we not the same people at home that we are at church? And there was the need to be a perfect sort of member or perfect family that we looked the part, even though we weren't really the part.

Margi Dehlin [02:03:23] Yeah.

Josh Coffin [02:03:24] So that was always hard as a kid and as a. As a teen.

Margi Dehlin [02:03:29] Yeah, I can imagine.

Josh Coffin [02:03:32] What else? Other themes.

John Dehlin [02:03:35] So were you. To what extent was End times Millennial prepperism? A part of your upbringing?

Josh Coffin [02:03:42] Not a lot, but it was in the area. So my parents weren't as political as they were focused on, like, BYU sports and BYU football and byu. Just sports are all that matters. Right. And. But we lived in a very conservative area, so I had a lot of scout leaders, and we'd do a lot of scout camps, and there was a lot of conservative. Sort of. Idaho in general is just conservative. So I didn't really know that was my baseline where it's just very conservative. And I wasn't anywhere near what Kim's family was like.

Kim Coffin [02:04:08] No, I don't. I don't think you had any experience really with. With preppers. I think it was until you met me.

Josh Coffin [02:04:15] Yeah, it wasn't a lot of preppers. There was a lot of conservative politics, though, Fox News and just very sort of, you know, guns and a lot of jokes about liberals and BYU being liberal and stuff like that. But it was very. Idaho was just very conservative. Right. We just all grew up with a shotgun in our hand going to scout camp. So that was just the way of Idaho Falls. And very heavy, heavy lds. Like, all my friends are lds. I had very few non Mormon friends. Almost every girl I dated was lds. So it was. In some ways, I thought it was weird when someone wasn't lds. I was like, oh, they're not. They don't go to church. That was just. I just grew up in a bubble where everyone went to church. Idaho Falls was unique in that way for me.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:04:58] And did you experience a lot of shame as a Mormon teenage boy?

Josh Coffin [02:05:03] Definitely. All the pressure with the family really took its toll. I would see it come out in mental health with cousins, or I'd have cousins that were severely depressed, or a lot of us had anxiety because we needed to make sure grandpa and these aunts and uncles approved of us. And I have these really intense. Just this one. One uncle and one aunt in particular that just so overbearing, Constantly checking in on our accomplishments. Right. So the accomplishments were for their sake, not for ours. And a lot of my cousins don't really understand that. And I still tell them that, you know, it's about how they look, their image. And this as we studied, narcissistic tendencies. It all makes a lot of sense because it's about how do I look? How do my children's accomplishments make me look? And me being the oldest of 18 grandkids, all my accomplishments were under a microscope. So, yes, I had really bad anxiety as a kid. If I did have a failure, it was Devastating. If I didn't do good enough in a spiritual or I didn't get the top spelling B or if I didn't, it was just, I walked around just as an anxious kid that was so nervous about getting a B plus, you know, A's or nothing sort of mentality. And that took its toll. Especially when during those teenage years you start to, you know, explore and you, and you maybe you saw pornography and you sort of beat yourself up with shame and guilt and you don't want to reveal a weakness to anyone in this high performing family. You don't want to say that like I messed up with a girl or I looked at pornography or I watched an R rated movie secretly or whatever the rule was. You know, we just weren't allowed to have weaknesses.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:51] Yeah. To be human, really.

Josh Coffin [02:06:53] Right. We're just performative robots. I often think back to like, what accomplishment can I make to make my mom happy? What accomplishment can I do to make sure grandpa gives me that conditional love?

Margi Dehlin [02:07:04] Yeah.

Josh Coffin [02:07:05] I just so badly wanted their approval. So praise for me was like, oh, grandpa, Grandpa thought I did a good job.

Margi Dehlin [02:07:11] Yeah.

Josh Coffin [02:07:12] That's amazing. I got my scout camp or I got my, my Eagle Scout and I'm in front of all my family.

Kim Coffin [02:07:16] Yeah.

Josh Coffin [02:07:16] And they're all adoring me and this is what I live for. Right. It's all about accomplishment and performance.

Kim Coffin [02:07:22] So it almost feels like it trains us to be addicted to dopamine. Like we've talked before about how sometimes it feels like Mormons are like these little mini addicts. Like we're not addicted to drugs or alcohol per se, but we are addicted to the dopamine of people's approval. And I think that's a very big theme throughout Mormonism is we see these mothers that need this constant stream of accomplishments and from their children to prove that the mother has worth and that she's doing a good enough job. And you saw that a lot within your family. Yeah.

Josh Coffin [02:07:58] A lot of ADHD in the family. So a lot of dopamine chasing. Accomplishment chasing. I've always had a theory that in high demand religions, after all of this studying, that there is a narcissistic complex among mothers that's not necessarily their fault. Because if their only fulfillment in the church is through their children, they don't have a lot of fulfillment elsewhere, especially if they're not working or they don't have some sort of hobby that they look to. And that's not the mother's necessarily fault. It's just kind of the system. The patriarchal system is set up where the accomplishments of my children are all that I live for. And so when you disappoint them, it's like the most devastating thing in the world to them because you've somehow ruined their reputation.

Margi Dehlin [02:08:39] Because it, like, impacts their identity. Right. Their sense of self.

John Dehlin [02:08:43] Because it's a reflection on. It's in their minds. In Mormon mom's minds, it's a reflection of bad parenting. You know, your behavior as a child,

Kim Coffin [02:08:52] it's like a moral shortcoming if the child isn't performing well enough. Like, what has the mother done wrong? Or where has she fallen short? Which is so unfair and so harmful.

Margi Dehlin [02:09:05] Yeah, yeah. What I'm hearing, and also what you're describing is also this, in some ways, a leaving of yourself in order to please others. In other words, to like, to become what is expected to be what people want you to be and to have that love. The connection is outside yourself. You're always looking outside yourself. So it leaves you with this sense of an emptiness as to what actually would make you happy. Or did you find that, like, in the kind of looking back, is that something that you experienced?

Josh Coffin [02:09:45] Yeah. That's a great way to put it, I think in the inner child work I've done since leaving the church with therapy. I loved Legos. I am. I loved nerdy things. I loved, like, video games. And I say nerdy because that's how I was, like, conditioned. Like, basically my dad would talk about how if you're tall and you don't play sports, that you're a waste of height. That's how he looked at individuals that didn't ball or play ball. And so here I am playing basketball, playing football, doing my best, even baseball. I used to joke, like, I'm like, dad, we're in the six foot and underclub. Like, we're not really built for basketball, but I'll do whatever it takes to make you proud. And I wanted to go play Legos. I wanted to go. I was secretly in the honor society in high school. I didn't tell anyone. I was secretly in the Spanish club. I was. I did. I did things that were deemed nerdy because I. I was trying to do things that I. To. To get that sense of self.

Margi Dehlin [02:10:46] Yeah.

Josh Coffin [02:10:47] Because I didn't actually have that sense of self. And so it took a. I never really developed it. It was always still performative. It was always for others around me and never for myself. But I think later in life I've realized that sports are great, but they're not all self. Defining. There's other things about my life that I want to do. And so that. That was. That was hard just living my life for my grandpa and my mom.

Margi Dehlin [02:11:10] Absolutely.

Josh Coffin [02:11:11] And not for myself.

Margi Dehlin [02:11:12] And I think too, what comes out of that is sort of that sense of what you just stated. If you love video games, it's like, somehow did you find they were, like, judged as. As inferior? Because there's nothing to show for that. It doesn't give your mom anything to show. Show for that. And having to. I would imagine in the rebuilding, having to kind of reframe some of those things where it's like, well, I can just love it. It can just be for me, actually, I don't. It's not about if I have something to show for it.

Josh Coffin [02:11:43] Right. It's just something that I love. It's just who I am. Absolutely. And John, to answer your question about shame, I had a lot of bishop roulette as a teenager. And I'd have. I would go in and tell things about. I did with girls and. And some bishops were just like, well, you're doing your best and. And try not to do that again. Or, you know, it was just not a big deal to some of them. And then others it would be this very. You can't take the sacrament. You need to. There was a lot of shame involved. We need. We need everyone to basically see you for a sinner or that you need to, you know, have one to two months of not taking the sacrament in front of your family. Or when I was a priest, not being able to bless. Right. And that was a big deal when you're in this big quorum of all these people notice when so and so hasn't blessed in a while or hasn't taken it in a while. And so I was always confused by, like, how much shame should I have as a person when I get different levels of shame from different leaders. And obviously you like the bishops more that are more relaxed and chill than the ones that are more intense with the shame. Those are the scarier types of bishops. And so I always felt like it was just a matter of where we lived and what neighborhood we were in and what, you know, what bishop we had at the time. And I got to experience all of those. I did have one that was very explicit in asking what exactly I did do with the other teen. And I always thought that was weird. Like, why did you need details about, you know, under the clothes versus over the clothes or, like, was there touching here or there and just kind of like at the Time I didn't question it because it was like, oh, I'm, I'm in trouble here. I did something I shouldn't do. I better give him all the details. And I never questioned that, never questioned being alone, you know, in those interviews. I think now, thank goodness, there is some questioning of that, but it's still not mainstream. But looking back, that was another layer of shame having to give details about experiences as a teenager.

John Dehlin [02:13:45] Yeah. And given how like it seems like every month in Utah or Idaho, another Mormon bishop is accused of sexually abusing either a kid or a teen, it just seems to be happening all the time. The idea of this grown man who's got no training sitting alone with a teenage girl, boy or girl, behind closed doors, asking for sexual details is deeply and set up in a power differential where the bishop gets to determine the worthiness of the, of the teen. And, you know, the, the power differential that's involved in the stakes of whatever that bishop decides, it can lead to some real spiritual manipulation or abuse. And you're nodding. I was going to ask you, Kim, and I know we're going back to you for just a second, but I just don't want to go too far without getting you in here. How was it for you to have a bishop asking you for sexual details as a teenage girl in Mormonism?

Kim Coffin [02:14:56] Yeah. As I was listening to him say, like one of your bishop asked for explicit details and some of them didn't. I started thinking, oh, did they not all ask for explicit details? Because they definitely all asked me for explicit, step by step, everything that happened, details. And now that I'm thinking about it, like, that's really not okay. I mean, I knew that the one on one interviews were not okay, but I'm not sure that I had really fully thought that process through right until now. And yeah, if my child, I would never let my child be in a room with an untrained man being asked questions about those types of things, that just is worrisome. It's troublesome.

John Dehlin [02:15:42] And, and did you want to answer the same question or you may have made the point?

Josh Coffin [02:15:48] Yeah, I think so. I think the point's been made there kind of. I did notice that the one, the bishops that were not as they were kinder about it or just even dismissive about it were the ones that were usually involved heavily in the young men's program. So they sort of rooted for you like before maybe they were a bishop, so they had a calling where they were in young men's. And so it was like, oh, You're a young boy. It's fine. Like, but maybe he questioned the girls more. Right. And so I felt like there was a little bit of that, like, add a boy sort of mentality. Like, it's fine. You can.

Margi Dehlin [02:16:21] Why?

Josh Coffin [02:16:21] Because I was shocked. Like, why are you. Why. Why is this so dismissive? I thought I'm supposed to be here to repent. And so I thought maybe there was. And I think, looking back, maybe there was a man.

Kim Coffin [02:16:31] So interesting, because one time I did something with a boy, and I went to my bishop and told him everything that had happened. And then the bishop contacted his bishop, and he got pulled in, which goes against the rules. I don't think you're supposed to go from bishop to bishop. And he didn't have nearly as harsh of a punishment. It was just like, meh. He was fine. And I had a larger punishment than I actually think was right, according to the rule book. So I think that is true. Like, there were some uneven punishments towards girls. There was, like, a higher level of virtue and purity that was expected versus boys will be boys sort of a feeling.

Josh Coffin [02:17:15] I did get the boys will be boys sort of feeling from some of them.

Kim Coffin [02:17:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:17:18] So, okay. Thanks for sharing. Other things you want to say about your life up through high school admission that were really formative to your later, later story.

Mission Experiences and Returning Home

Josh Coffin [02:17:32] Yeah, I think. Did you see a mission as well?

John Dehlin [02:17:34] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh Coffin [02:17:35] So I think the mission's a whole other piece that. I mean, it plays into the perfectionism of the youth. I really didn't deal with a whole lot of issues until the mission. So I was sent home four months early from my mission.

John Dehlin [02:17:53] What would you want to say about that decision?

Josh Coffin [02:17:57] So I went to Tampico, Mexico, and I was out 20 months. And you were the first of your

Kim Coffin [02:18:02] friends to leave, too?

Josh Coffin [02:18:03] First of my friends.

Kim Coffin [02:18:04] So everyone saw you go out and leave.

Josh Coffin [02:18:06] First grandkid, first grandkid, first child. Went to Mexico, Had a great mission. Very successful mission. There was a lot of baptizing in Mexico. There was a lot of opportunities in Mexico. The church was growing. This was 2007 to 2009, and I had trained a lot of elders. I was working my way up the ranks. I even became executive secretary to the mission president. And so I was in the mission offices for nine months and really worked hard to move up. Mexico was kind of a interesting mission, though. Latin America had just a different feel with rules. Commandments were always important, but mission rules were always stretched pretty thin. I remember some of my early companions when I first started the mission would sneak out and go see girls or do things that I was confused by because we were on a mission. And I was always kind of shocked by that behavior. I even had the mission president, the first one I had, he even paired me up with another American elder who was an apostate, like he didn't believe in the church and he had just three months left of his mission. And so he, he asked me to help finish off this elder, like help him finish his last three months of his mission and see him out the door with honor. And so as a six month old missionary, I had to go spend three months with an elder who had his own theories and was didn't believe and

Kim Coffin [02:19:46] refused to go out, refused to knock

Josh Coffin [02:19:48] doors, refused to do anything. So I was just kind of stuck for three months with an American elder. So I went from having a trainer who was sneaking out to see girls to an apostate sort of elder who didn't believe. Those were some rocky experiences as an elder, didn't he?

Kim Coffin [02:20:06] Who did he worship? He worship?

Josh Coffin [02:20:08] Well, he had a theory around Satan is getting the, like a theory around how Satan, I don't even remember but that Satan was also the son of God and that he was dealt the bad card.

Kim Coffin [02:20:20] And yeah, he had some interesting, some

Josh Coffin [02:20:22] weird theories and I just ignored him because my job to make sure that I was people pleasing and listening to the mission president was to get this elder through his three last months. And then I got 19 months into my mission. I'd been in the mission offices for eight months as executive secretary. This mission president was much more understanding and loving. He's a big teddy bear of a man and a lot of rules were broken during his tenure. A lot of elders did what they wanted, but we were very successful. Lots of baptisms and I even knew of elders who were having intimate relations with girls in the mission.

John Dehlin [02:21:03] Meaning sex?

Josh Coffin [02:21:04] Yes, having sex during their mission and with local girls. And I would have elders tell me that and I would just try to be like their friend and you know, it was a lonely experience. You're in Mexico, you don't understand the language for the first six to 12 months. It's really lonely. You're not allowed to call your parents. You can email them once a week. You can't. I mean you're just lonely. I remember crying myself to sleep during the first six months because I couldn't understand the language. I didn't know where I was. My companions were breaking rules. This wasn't what I was told by the church. This would be and I always was told, like, oh, it's a Latin America mission. Like, rules are just broken here. It's not like the States, where they're super strict and we have lots of baptisms here. So it was always kind of like, the rules can be broken. And so I very quickly broke down, like, it was like, oh, I guess we can go to the beach on P Day and have four baptisms, you know, two days before that. And. And the success of the numbers always made us feel like we were somewhat above the rules. But then we got a new mission president during my last month of the mission, and he was a BYU football player and a military man. And he came in and very quickly cleaned up the mission. I was the first of many to be sent home. I was told somewhere in the number of 20 to 30 elders were sent home within his first three months in Mexico. And I was one of the.

John Dehlin [02:22:37] Well, I mean, if missionaries are having sex, that's a problem. Sure.

Kim Coffin [02:22:40] Well, it was more than just missionaries having sex that were getting sent home.

Josh Coffin [02:22:43] Sure. Well, I didn't. I didn't do anything like that, but I knew of others who did. And I also saw elders go home with honor that were doing those things. And when he came in to try

John Dehlin [02:22:53] to clean things, missionaries having sex, but

Josh Coffin [02:22:55] were released after their two full years were up. I know of several, and I. And I just kind of saw that as part of this mission. And sure, he came in as a new mission president and rightly so, wanted to clean things up, but he also pulled me aside and was like, you're a ringleader. You break a lot of rules. You know a lot of things about other elders. You're an office elder who. Who has influence. And I want you to tell me now of all these elders you know about that have done bad things, even the ones that have been home who have gone home with honor. And I refused to. I refused to narc. I refused to tell on other. I didn't. I never felt like I was an ecclesiastical leader who should tell on other. Like, that's between them and God is kind of how I always thought of it. And I. He didn't like that. And so I was one of the first ones sent home for breaking rules. And I always like to tell people I broke rules, not commandments. I went to the beach. I think we saw the Avengers in movie theater one time. Small things. I bought my own cell phone on

Kim Coffin [02:24:03] the mission, where he had terrible anxiety

Josh Coffin [02:24:07] to call my mom or my dad or text my brother.

Kim Coffin [02:24:10] It just makes me really sad, like when he's told me experiences, because I know he struggles with anxiety and he felt so unsafe on his mission. Like, you guys would get robbed. You didn't have warm water. You many times went to bed hungry. Your companions didn't have money for food. You paid for their food so many times. There were so many basic needs. Like, you have Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Right. And you need to have all of those things, like a safe place to sleep, food and water, all of these things in order to have good mental health or even function normally in the world. And those basic needs weren't being met. And you're paying to be on this mission where you don't have enough food to eat. I just. It makes me so upset to think about that. Like, there's no shortage of money. Yeah. We were always asking, why are these elders living in these houses?

John Dehlin [02:25:08] Yeah. If the Mormon Church has $150 billion in cash and stocks and bonds, at least, and missionaries are paying for their own missions, why are missionaries going hungry?

Josh Coffin [02:25:19] And I had saved up for my own mission, so most of my mission was paid for by myself. So $400 a month was coming from my own account. My grandpa also helped with some of it, but I was paying. Right. And often the Latin American elders I was with didn't pay their own way, and they wouldn't have much money. And so I would go pull out of my. I used to carry my debit card in my sock because my. My debit card and my sock meant if we got robbed or our backpacks were taken, I'd still have my source of money and no one. Were you robbed on your mission multiple times? Yeah, multiple times. By gunpoint or not gunpoint. It was always knife point or just like multiple.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:55] Multiple people. Just. Just knife, I guess.

Josh Coffin [02:25:59] I guess. I have friends who've been at gunpoint in Africa, so I always think that it's less than terrible. I know I sort of minimize what happened. But they're breaking rules. Elders are breaking rules. The mission's not what I thought it was. We're having lots of baptisms, though, so I think it's successful. But we're always out of money. And so I'm reaching out to family, asking for more money. Hey, I want to buy tacos at night for myself because I'm hungry. And I live in a home with three other elders who don't have any money. I need to buy food for the four of us. And so I'd have generous family put money on my personal debit card, and I'D buy so many things for, you know, these elders to get through it.

Kim Coffin [02:26:35] Well, many times the members couldn't afford to feed you. They were in poverty. And even if they did feed you, the conditions of their kitchen were not always sanitary. And so you got sick so many times.

Josh Coffin [02:26:48] I lost 40 pounds in the first eight months just from not being able to keep sanitary food down. And we walked everywhere. And, you know, I learned a lot during all of that, but it was like, not what they say a mission will be. It's not a stateside mission. It was. It felt very much third world world country. Like, even though it was Mexico and there was some Americanized things about it, we were definitely alone. And it was. The anxiety and depression was really bad. I didn't know what that was at the time, 2007, anxiety and depression was barely spoken about. And when missioners would go home for mental health issues, it was, he couldn't hack it, or he's weak or whatever mean thing they would say to dismiss, or he, you know, he can't. He can't. He can't do it. And so I didn't know I had bad anxiety. I didn't know what that was. This was always a high performer. And so I thought I was just trying to do, you know, I got to get through this mission. I can't. I always had my mom's voice in the back of my head, you will go on a mission. Even when I was a teenager with girls, I would run away from a situation with a girl because my mom's voice was, you will go on a mission. So I had this constant, like, I cannot disappoint my mother, cannot disappoint my grandfather. And so I'm out on this mission going, well, I have this. My first. My trainer, the guy who's supposed to teach me how to be a missionary, is sneaking out at night to go see a girl. Do I call the mission president? Like, do I narc on him? Do I have a conversation with him? And a lot of missionaries tried to make me, reassure me that this is just part of the mission. Like, it's okay. And I was so green and so unaware of Spanish. I'm just trying to learn Spanish that I'm just like, okay, well, we're still. We're teaching lessons. We're knocking doors. We're baptizing people all the time. We're doing what we're supposed to. It's fine if you have a girlfriend. Like, that was my justification. And then to have an elder for three months who didn't believe in the church. And my job was to help him finish his mission according to the president, so he could return with honor. Was also a really terrible experience because for three months, I sat in a room and just hung out with an American elder, and he taught me Spanish, and we went and got tacos, but he refused to work. He's like, I'm not going to work for these last three months of my mission. I'm only here because of my mother. And so I get about seven, eight months into my mission, and that's my experience so far. And then I trained a few elders, and that was actually great because I got to. To be the one who determined what it was like. You know, I got to train some fresh, fresh missionaries. And then I got put in the mission offices. And that was actually a great experience because I got to answer the mission office phone. I learned really good Spanish that way. I got to meet a lot of people in the mission home. And I was often by myself because there was the two assistants to the president, and then there was the financial elder, financial secretary elder, and the materials elder. So there were four elders in the mission office that would go out in their pairs of two, But I was the executive secretary, and so I would also often be with the mission president. He was kind of considered my companion, which was kind of interesting. We had one older couple that was there, and that was it. That was the entire mission office. And we only had two cars in the entire mission. There was the mission president's car and then the big van that we would pick up. Pick up elders. One time recently, too. John. I got asked about as an executive secretary in the mission offices or some of my responsibilities. Well, I got to keep. And I didn't realize this was so bad, but I kept the visas and the passports of all the elders in the entire mission under lock and key. I was the one who would go to the immigration offices to get them renewed every six months, get them stamped for approval. That was my job and had a constant cycle of that because, you know, every every three weeks or every six weeks, there would be another wow. Group of visas I need to take in and get stamped. So I have to present passport. And the elders would show up. I'd have them meet me there at the immigration offices, and I would present their visa and their passport, and I would keep that in the mission office under lock and key. And didn't think much of it. Like, I was just responsible for keeping track of all those documents. So in theory, if an elder wanted to leave the mission and fly home. They could not unless they came to the mission office to get their documents, which I always thought was kind of odd, but I guess I didn't question it at the time, but I do now. What was hard for me is that I got this choice to tell on other missionaries with this new mission president. He came in ready to make some changes into the mission and I wasn't really willing to repent for others or talk for others or speak for others. And so I went home without honor because I wouldn't lie or I wouldn't tell the truth about other elders. I wouldn't be that person. And so I think that one's always affected me because I've always looked back and said, should I have just told on those elders? Should I have been selfish? I could have had an honorable full time release if I had just told on the other elders and several others were sent home right after me. There was a bunch of us, there were elders that reached out to me who got an honorable release just before I got sent home, who had been having sex with girls on the mission, who would apologize to me. Like, you got sent home, you didn't get the, the glory or the, the honorable return. And this was, this was devastating to my, my mom and to my grandpa. Like, I didn't have a homecoming talk. I, it was a dishonorable discharge. Like, it was like, I kept my recommend. I like to tell people that because they're like, oh, you must have done something. I had my recommend. I didn't lose my recommend, which means I was sent home for breaking rules, not commandments. But there were elders who broke commandments and rules and rules and got an honorable release with the nicer mission president who really just didn't want to know the details of what was going on because he had been in his third year and was very tired. And so I got to have a little bit of leadership roulette, right? My first. I love the man. That was my first mission president. I had him for 19 months. I learned a lot. Obviously there were things in the mission that weren't great, but he was so loving and kind. Even when he would be informative things, he would move elders to another area. He would do things to try and keep these elders in the mission.

Kim Coffin [02:33:22] He was very kind. I even met him later on before we got married, while we were dating. He was so sweet and spoke so highly of you. And that was hard for me to understand. How could this mission leader speaks so highly of this person who was sent Home. Like, how can you have these two things coexisting at the same time?

Josh Coffin [02:33:40] It was almost like two missions. It was like 19 months with him and then one month with the new mission president. And he actually reached out to me about a year later after sending me home early and wanted to sort of reconcile. He wanted to tell me he was sorry for. I don't remember the words exactly, but it was about sort of being too harsh or too. Yeah, two rulesy or two, you know, because I didn't do anything that should have sent me home. It was, I wouldn't tell on others and I broke some rules that I could have easily repented for or moved areas. You know, going to the beach and having a cell phone and going to the movies once or twice was not in my book, a reason to be sent home when there was so much other things happening.

Kim Coffin [02:34:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:34:23] And I'll just say, like, for those who don't understand Mormon culture, being sent home from your two year Mormon mission can be devastating in terms of your reputation, how you're perceived by fellow members of your ward, by family members, by women or men that you might want to date. You're basically shunned and shamed. It's going to be assumed by all that if you come home early, you committed some sort of sexual transgression, which again is considered to be next to murder and severity. But you're also just a huge disappointment. It's like, yeah, it's just being viewed as a spiritual failure and as a evil, sinful person. And so it's wrong that they do that for people who have sex on their missions. That's awful and horrible. Like, where's Christ? Where's the atonement? Where's forgiveness? Where's working with people? But to send someone home and to put that shame and stigma and scarlet letter on them for simply not buckling to coercive pressure from a new mission president, trying to make a statement that feels horrifically abusive to me, given the consequences of that decision that would have affected you. I don't mean to put all that on your experience. What was it like coming home early?

Josh Coffin [02:35:53] It was a great description of everything that happened. I, I already said that. My mom and my grandpa, like facing them was, I was already this high performing kid, the oldest of 18 grandkids. I didn't make mistakes, I didn't mess up. But even harder than facing my family was coming home and wanting to date again and wanting to like be a part of this Idaho Falls community that was very heavily lds. And I Remember reaching out to a couple girls that I had dated in high school who are now, you know, 18 or 19. And I remember I called one of them up and said, hey, I'm home, and I'd like to take you on a date. And we had dated in high school for several months, and we were pretty close. And she said, I can meet you at a public park. And I was like, okay. And she's like, and my mom wants my friend to come. And I was like, oh, I was hoping to take you on, like, a date and, like, you know, talk again. And she said, well, we'll meet you at the park at this time. And so I got to the park, and there's this girl that I dated my last year of high school. And I loved her. She was my true first love. And she sat on a park bench with her best friend, telling me that I was, like, unworthy to date. Like, I had come home early, and her parents didn't want her to have anything to do with me. And I just was in shock. I was just like, I don't understand. Like, I'm. I have my temple recommend. Like, we can go to a session. Like, I'm going to byu, Idaho soon. Like, this was. It was devastating to me. I just. I couldn't. I was in shock. Like, why would. Why would this judgment be so harsh? You don't even know what I did wrong. Like, you don't know why I was sent home early. And it happened, actually three different times where local families that I grew up with around in my local wards basically had said, I'm sorry, but I don't. And I think rumors spread. I think people just think, oh, he's home early. Like, and it was weird because I was gone 20 months. I was almost done. I was four months away. And I think I'll forever be judged for the. Not finishing the four months. So close. And after two years, almost two years of just grinding through, like, all the disobedience and the mission and, like. Like, this wasn't what I thought it would be. And we had so much success. Like, I'm like, we're baptizing people or doing good. We're having so many lessons. The people were so receptive to us in Mexico. They loved American elders. We. We won a lot of people over. We brought a lot of gospel to a lot of people. And I just was rejected. I was fully rejected by the community in which I grew up. I don't know how I stayed in the church after that. I was just so scared of like, like the eternities. Like, I want to have an eternal marriage, and so I have to date Mormon girls. And if I've had three Mormon girls reject me for coming home early, like, what. What's gonna happen to me? And so. And that's when I met Kim. I met Kim at that point, and the only thing she asked me was, did you learn from the experience? She was 18 and I was 21, and the only thing she cared about was, like, not what I did on my mission or, like, what happened or am I worthy? She said, did you learn from the experience? Like, did you? Are you. Like, are you. Do you have sorrow for what happened and are you moving on? Like, she was understanding about it.

Kim Coffin [02:40:12] Godly.

Josh Coffin [02:40:13] Godly. Sorrow.

Kim Coffin [02:40:14] Godly.

Josh Coffin [02:40:15] It was the first girl that gave me the space to, like, heal or just feel like I had value because I'd already been rejected by my family and then my whole community. Idaho Falls, which is like, very clicky, very Mormon. Everyone knows everyone. It's a city of about a hundred thousand. So it just. Everybody seems to know everyone in the stakes.

Margi Dehlin [02:40:37] Yeah.

Josh Coffin [02:40:37] And when you don't get to have your homecoming talk, it's like, what happened to Elder Coffin? Like, why didn't he give a talk? It's like, well, I went to the movies and I went to the beach, and then I didn't tell on all the other elders, like the new mission president wanted me to.

Margi Dehlin [02:40:52] So it's so painful.

John Dehlin [02:40:55] You were paying to be shamed and 20 months. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:41:01] Unacceptable.

John Dehlin [02:41:01] Like, you're the church. You're paying to be the church's salesperson. Yeah. And what you get in return is the destruction of your reputation and self esteem.

Josh Coffin [02:41:13] Absolutely.

Margi Dehlin [02:41:14] It reminds me a little bit of what happens too, when people transition away from Mormonism. Within a family system that's really embedded in Mormonism is the things that I think you individually can feel proud about. Your collective views in a way of a failing. You're a failure, actually. And that's what I see a little bit here is just like you're talking about your early story as being one where you're so about approval, you're so about what other people want for you. But on your mission, you actually did some things that feel like they were for you. Like, you. You went against doing the thing you'd always done, and you had a moment with authority where they were asking something, and you had like an ethics moment where you were like, I get this, and I could do the approval thing, and I know what that looks like. And you can. And it's like, no, no, I'm not going to do it. And you, you know, and all that ensued. But really, in a moment, it's sort of like a coming to, like you came back round to yourself as opposed to doing the approval thing, which is like, there's so much to be, you know, to like really love about that for you as this young person in a system that's all about control and power and you're paying for and all those things. And you did it anyway. You know, you individuated enough to allow yourself to, to, you know, be a disruptor for a minute. Not even probably wanting to be a disruptor. But like you, you emerged as an individual in a system in that moment.

Josh Coffin [02:42:57] You know, that's such a good reframe. I. I really appreciate that because it's always been just such a source of shame, especially when we were in the church, because like later on you get asked, like, did you serve a mission? Did you serve a full time mission? That was often how that question was phrased. Like, did you serve a full time mission? It's like, Well, I served 20 out of 24 months. Like, is that, is that enough? I had X number of baptisms. Like, is that enough? Like, what do you need from me? And you're right, it was the first time that I said, you know what, there's a superhero movie in theaters. And I have been grinding my ass off out here in the hot sun. I've lost £40. I can't keep any of the food down. I've had all the success that they want. All the metrics that I review report back. I've trained all these new elders. I'm gonna go see this superhero movie.

Kim Coffin [02:43:43] Yes.

Josh Coffin [02:43:44] Because I want to on my P day. And I'm gonna go find some other elders and go to the beach on our P day morning. Because those are like normal human things to do, to go to a beach on our day off. But to the new mission president, that was like, terrible. Like, you're rounding up elders and going to a place that we have forbidden you to go after a certain hour. Because the thing was, you could go to the beach in the morning on P day, but you'd have to leave by noon because that's when the people would show up in bikinis. And so his rule was, you could be at the beach in the early morning, play some football and soccer on the beach. Can't get in the water, obviously. And that was the rule. We would stay and have a whole day at the beach because that was super reasonable to us as 19, 20 year old men.

Kim Coffin [02:44:30] I think we sometimes forget how young you are too, on this mission where you're expected to have complete adherence to this intense set of rules. And you're just these young boys with little to no experience living on your own, dealing with mental health issues.

Josh Coffin [02:44:51] Well, and we didn't really even talk about how lonely with, like, the reason we would buy our own phone, because you could buy a phone in Mexico for $10 and I could text home home for 10 cents. And so to me, it was like, I'm gonna buy a phone and I'm gonna text my dad.

Margi Dehlin [02:45:04] Yeah.

Josh Coffin [02:45:05] And I'm gonna call my mom on, you know, not every day, like once a month or once every quarter.

Margi Dehlin [02:45:10] Yeah.

Josh Coffin [02:45:11] But the, the weekly email to the family was all I had. And that is not enough because we know so much more now about mental health and anxiety and depression. And the church has made some changes and they like to do a revisionist history of like, oh, now we let the elders and the sisters communicate on Facebook with their family and they can text home and they can call. I got two calls a year, Mother's Day and Christmas. That was my official amount of time that I was allowed to call my family. And so. And the email, the weekly email. Right. Which just feels so distant. Right. You're just writing the story about your week and you send it off and then you read the replies six days later.

Margi Dehlin [02:45:54] Yeah.

Josh Coffin [02:45:54] And then you write another story about how your week was. And there's just, there's no intimacy, there's no family. You're just. And you're in this lonely world. And I, I feel for the foreign speakers. John, you've talked about other episodes where there's this weird, like, where you get your mission call and is it, is it cool? Is it foreign speaking? There's like this weird culture within Mormonism that if you go stateside, it's kind of lame, but if you, you go somewhere foreign, it's super awesome. And so getting the Mexico call was like the coolest thing ever, like Spanish and, and, but it's lonely because those, those foreign elders who go to a foreign land where they learn a different language, you spend the first six to 12 months just learning the language, not only how to understand it and listen to it, but also how to speak it. And even after a year, you're not perfect, but you, your second year is always a little better because you can finally say things how you want to say them. And. But the loneliness of the first six to 12 months. Nobody talks about that. Like, it's just so lonely.

Margi Dehlin [02:46:52] Yeah.

Josh Coffin [02:46:52] And I have companions who didn't speak a word of English. So I'm alone with someone who can't understand me. I can't understand them.

Margi Dehlin [02:47:00] Yeah.

Josh Coffin [02:47:01] And I've got to try to figure out how to navigate this world of, we don't have enough money. I can't speak like, that's right. So the whole thing was just like a mental health nightmare. I'm glad they're letting elders talk to their families now. I think that's a good change the church has made. But it's still a ridiculous experience at that age to not have the mental health help that you might need.

Margi Dehlin [02:47:23] Absolutely. Especially if they're going to require, you know, so many things that are just. They're inhumane, really. It's an inhumane way to live and to be expected to live. And then within that steep, steep, unreasonable expectation when you are trying to. What I love is that it just. It really feels like a moment where you refuse to become inhuman. You were like, I have needs. I have needs. I need to text family. I need to go to this movie today. I need. And it. And it. It really is about you in those moments. I think allowing yourself to be real to yourself in a climate where no one else was seeing that that was even important. It actually doesn't benefit them to have people who are connected. So the fact that you awakened in that way, in this climate of just how sustained, systemically challenging that was, like, I would celebrate the hell out of that with my kids. I'd be like, that's what we want.

Josh Coffin [02:48:39] Appreciate that. It's nice. Reframe. It's always been a source of shame for me. Obviously, with therapy and understanding wife and leaving the church, it's a lot less now than it was before, but it's always just been a source of, like, pain and rejection and failure and.

Margi Dehlin [02:48:56] Yeah. Because that's what you experience.

Josh Coffin [02:48:58] Yeah. And at a level there I just thought was like, my life might be over. Like, this is. I've. I've never failed to this regard. Like, how do I tell my grandfather? How do I tell my. My mother? How do I tell these girls that I dated? How do I. How do I go to byu, Idaho with my head held high as an honorable returned missionary? Like, do I check the box that I served a mission when I fill out my BYU, ID application?

Margi Dehlin [02:49:22] Right.

Josh Coffin [02:49:23] Do you consider those 20 months valid? How about all the souls that I brought unto Christ? Do they matter?

Margi Dehlin [02:49:29] Yes.

Josh Coffin [02:49:30] Right. Like, and so it just Made me question everything I had done. Like, none of it, none of it had value because it wasn't 24 months. And so that was just painful because it was like, did I waste, Did I waste this time? Like, this was supposed to be this big accomplishment of my life. Like, this is what I live my whole life for. This is why I did or didn't do things in high school, so that I could go on, so I could stay eligible for this mission.

Margi Dehlin [02:49:55] Yeah.

Josh Coffin [02:49:55] Because I look back to my teen years and it's like, why what? Why did I not have sex as a teen? Because I wanted to go on a mission.

Margi Dehlin [02:50:01] Yes.

Josh Coffin [02:50:01] That kept me. I had my mother's voice in my head. You will go on a mission. You will not mess up. You will go on a mission. That was my goal. And so when that goal doesn't go the way you thought it would.

Margi Dehlin [02:50:13] So makes sense all the sacrifices that you made in your life with that, you being the exemplary oldest grandchild. It totally makes sense that when you're sent home and then you have those experiences, it's like the loss goes all the way back, all the way back to all the sacrifices you've made to all the focus that you had to all the things that you did in trying to have that approval and to be the best.

Kim Coffin [02:50:43] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:50:43] Yeah.

Josh Coffin [02:50:44] I wasn't able to be displayed when I got home. I wasn't able to make my mom or grandpa proud. My accomplishment was. It actually was a source of shame for them that I. I wasn't able to have this big talk in the stake.

Margi Dehlin [02:51:00] Yeah.

Josh Coffin [02:51:00] And it's like it was for me, not for you, but I was just trying to live for you, not for myself. It's a tough way to be a youth and a teen. I was a teenager, not an adult. Right. I was 19.

John Dehlin [02:51:14] So anyway, I'm so sorry that happened. Yeah. Both of you had rough, yes, we feel sorry upbringings and I want to say that's super abnormal in Mormonism, but I just, I get these stories daily. Dozens and dozens of these stories daily.

Margi Dehlin [02:51:30] It's the harm.

John Dehlin [02:51:32] And the church is known for like good, clean families and good, smart, achieving children. But I guess. And that can happen. But also there's a dark side to these perfection driven Mormon families and a lot of these Mormon beliefs and practices. Even outside of prepperism in your case.

Josh Coffin [02:51:58] Yeah, even outside the preppers. It was just more about perfectionism and, and. And also a loss of community. Right. I lived my whole life for community and to like feel like you've lost your Community and be rejected by that full community was so difficult.

Temple Marriage and Early Married Life

John Dehlin [02:52:14] So maybe as we're wrapping up this part one, and this has been really, really powerful and I know it's going to mean a lot to a lot of people, I think I'm going to have Julia make a short, like a lot, we call them longer shorts just of your mission experience of getting sent home. Because I think, yeah. That that story needs to be teased out so that it could be shared as its own example of early mission return and how shaming and stigmatizing that is. So I'm going to have Julia do that for sure. But let's go ahead and just close out your story about your you're getting married and then we'll go to part two, which because the book Visions of Glory comes out after you're married, right.

Josh Coffin [02:53:07] While we're in college.

John Dehlin [02:53:09] And I'm guessing that things with your dad, Kim, maybe even start to ramp up and escalate. And then that's when Chad Dabell and Lori Valow and all of the other stuff really starts to happen that we're going to get your perspectives on along with your own faith journey. But what would each of you like to say about your marriage and, you know, those early years, pre Visions of Glory?

Josh Coffin [02:53:39] I think getting married in the temple was like the saving grace for both of us in a way. Like you felt like unworthy from your childhood, and I felt unworthy from being sent home early from my mission. But to get sealed together in the rexburg Temple in 2010, you know, you were 18, I was 21. That felt like a sort of clean slate in some ways, at least for me, because I was so worried about, you know, not being eligible to be married in the temple or to have girls reject me because I was sent home early or who wouldn't even hear me out or hear my story. And so in some ways for me, it was like this great new era or this awesome. This person who loved me, who accepted me for who I was and for my flaws and my weaknesses. And for me, it was the time of joy. Just like being able to have someone who cared about me and showed me that kind of love where it wasn't conditional, truly was unconditional. I don't know about for you. You're so young.

Kim Coffin [02:54:41] I was very young.

Josh Coffin [02:54:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:54:42] 18 is a really early age to get married.

Kim Coffin [02:54:45] Very young.

John Dehlin [02:54:46] Had you gone to any college?

Margi Dehlin [02:54:47] No.

John Dehlin [02:54:48] Oh, wow.

Kim Coffin [02:54:49] Met Josh when I was 17. 17 and a half. I was very young. And again, I think my scrupulosity played into That a lot. I always wanted to do things on a faster timeline than other people. So in my mind, like, why waste all this time at BYUI dating and doing all these things? Why not get married as soon as you can and start having kids right away? If, if our sole purpose on Earth is to multiply and replenish, why would I want to put that off? And, I mean, I look back now and realize that that train of thought is very flawed, but that that is where my mind was at in those years. And so I asked myself that question, whether they say right time, right person, right place. And I was like, well, I feel like I can mark all three of those things, so why would we wait? Because my father was very against us getting married. My mother was wholly supportive of it, which I find somewhat problematic. I don't think I should have been encouraged to get married that young. But also, like, my father not wanting us to get married was more just. He didn't like you and it didn't fit his plan for my life. So we, we did everything on a quick timetable. We got married very young.

Josh Coffin [02:56:14] Well, so I met you in high school, when you were in high school. And I thought it was awkward because she was more mature than I was. She had all these goals. She was like, I want to, you know, graduate high school, I want to get my degree, I want to get married in the temple, I want to have kids right away. And I was like, I just want to go to BYU Idaho. Like, I didn't have those. I loved that she was so mature at 17 and a half. I was 21 and felt broken. She had this plan laid out. And so when my parents were like, you're not marrying an 18 year old. You're not, you know, that's weird. And why would you do that? Even among Mormonism, I thought that was kind of weird. And I said, well, she has this plan, like, she's ready to take this plan, like, and I want to, you know, meet those standards. I want to do the same thing. And so we kind of pushed back against my parents and her dad, and your mom was the only one that supported us. And it kind of was crazy because it was BYU Idaho. So it's like you go into this place where it's a higher. We got married and then we both started as freshmen at BYU Idaho together a week later.

Kim Coffin [02:57:14] Wow.

Josh Coffin [02:57:14] And so you go from being too young to get married, doing it anyway, and then you go to this very, very strict religious university that has, you know, more intense rules than any other place. In the United States, I would. I would assume. Yeah.

Kim Coffin [02:57:30] Most countries.

Josh Coffin [02:57:30] To the point where. Yeah. Like, you can't wear sandals, can't wear shorts, no beards. It was just super strict.

Margi Dehlin [02:57:36] Yeah.

Josh Coffin [02:57:38] So, yeah, it was kind of. We were super young, but also, like, you're not allowed to have sex until you're married. I think that's a super important point that, like. Can we just talk about that for a second? Like, that is huge. Had we been able to have sex, like, who knows where we would have gone? Like, I. We loved each other, but, like, we're

Kim Coffin [02:57:56] so happy that we are married. But had we just been allowed to have sex, we would not have gotten married at the age that we did because we were too young to get married. Like, our brains were not fully formed. We did not have great life experience.

John Dehlin [02:58:11] Like, that just isn't really also just self knowledge.

Kim Coffin [02:58:13] Yeah, right.

Margi Dehlin [02:58:15] Self development.

John Dehlin [02:58:16] Plus all the trauma you both had been through.

Kim Coffin [02:58:18] Yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:58:18] Having the moment to work through that.

Kim Coffin [02:58:21] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:58:21] Healed and treated your respective traumas. That's tough to bring into a marriage. Untreated trauma at a young age.

Kim Coffin [02:58:29] Very tough. Very tough. And Josh always frames it as me being mature. And I always kind of laugh and say, I think what you were saying really was just like some of my mental illness that was untreated, that looked like maturity, and it wasn't really. I had just had a lot of trauma growing up. And it looks like maturity sometimes for those of us especially who are highly dissociative high performers.

Margi Dehlin [02:58:56] That's right. That is such a good point, Kim. Yeah. Yeah.

Kim Coffin [02:59:03] So, yeah, we started college together and two perfectionist over performers get married. And we're like, okay, how can we do this the most efficient way possible on the fastest track and also have kids at the same time?

Margi Dehlin [02:59:20] Wow.

Kim Coffin [02:59:20] Not aware of any of our mental health struggles.

Josh Coffin [02:59:23] We both worked full time and did school full time. I managed the married housing on campus. I was actually a staff member. I was an insured staff member at BYU Idaho. So I was. I would. I would charge married rent to students account. I would. It was 156 apartments. It's called University Village. And I managed all the married housing that the school funded and she managed the girls dorm up the road. And so we both were housing managers full time, going to school full time in Rexburg, Idaho, where we got married in the temple, that temple up on Rexburg's hill there, and just overachieving in every way possible to get through our degrees. We did have our oldest daughter our senior year, so we did make it three years without kids.

John Dehlin [03:00:07] That's a little edgy. I'm, you know.

Josh Coffin [03:00:09] Yeah, I know. But to get through.

Kim Coffin [03:00:11] Funny.

Josh Coffin [03:00:11] We call it byu I. I do. Or BYU I do. Because everyone gets married so quick. We felt a lot of pressure to have a child as freshmen, sophomore and juniors. And I remember we fought that hard because I was like, there were rumors when we got married.

Kim Coffin [03:00:25] Well, a lot of people thought if you're getting married as an 18 year old, it must be because you're having sex or you must be pregnant and you need to cover it up.

John Dehlin [03:00:32] Wait, no. It's in my understanding of Mormonism is that's what you do.

Kim Coffin [03:00:38] But 18 was too young. If I was 19 and I had a semester of college, that would be acceptable.

John Dehlin [03:00:45] Interesting somehow.

Margi Dehlin [03:00:47] Oh, interesting.

John Dehlin [03:00:47] So 18 was too young. 19's okay.

Kim Coffin [03:00:49] We get married and nine months later there's no baby. And people are like, oh, she wasn't pregnant. No, I wasn't pregnant. And we got married in the temple and it was so interesting. And so we start school and BYUI has this interesting track system where you can really get all of your schooling done pretty quickly. That you can do three semesters a year, plus an additional semester during the Christmas break. So we were doing four semesters in a year and we would both take like 18 to 20 credits just like again, because we felt that need to

Josh Coffin [03:01:22] over perform that dissociative anxiety of performance. Like we're gonna get through this degree as fast as we can. Did all these internships. We did fight having the child though, because there was that sort of like, I'm glad that people thought that she was pregnant when we got married because it kept us from having a baby for a few years. We got to that actually know each other a little bit in three years and have a few vacations and just try to be like a young married couple. But we did have Maddie our senior year.

Kim Coffin [03:01:48] But I did have a really great teacher. One of my clothing construction teachers, she advised me once, she said she got married very young and her husband was, he was a pilot and he died. And she had a bunch of children and she had no way to support them once he had passed. And so she told me, she said, you got married very young, you need to finish your education. If anything happens to your husband, you will not have a way to support those children. And she says, I've seen too many women get married and think that that's the end all, be all. And they have no way of supporting themselves. And if something ever goes wrong, be it you get divorced or he dies or in some way he is disabled, you need to have something that you can fall back on. And I'm glad that I took her advice to heart. At the time. It was kind of edgy for her to say those things. Like, we were counseled so many times like, that my education really didn't matter as much as yours and that I should just start having babies. But I'm glad that she shared that with me because I was able to get my degree and I got almost my entire degree done in three years. I was supposed to graduate in three years. And then that very last semester, I was supposed to have my last semester and then have my baby a few days later. But that I ended up having some preterm labor and got put on bed rest. And so that kind of threw off

Josh Coffin [03:03:18] our one more semester.

Kim Coffin [03:03:19] We had to do one more semester.

Josh Coffin [03:03:21] Well, and the people were often dismissive of your degree. I remember a lot of the men in my family, like my engineer grandpa and all the CPA uncles and aunts that I have. She studied marriage and family therapy and. Or. And I have. I have siblings who did sociology. And if it wasn't like an engineering degree or I have an accounting degree, like, that's what men study. Right. And the women's degrees don't matter as much was kind of the rhetoric that. And I remember saying, no, I don't care what your degree's in. Your education matters. You need to finish. Screw what the rest of these men say, including your father.

Kim Coffin [03:03:53] Like, well, even my teachers, too, were saying, I was trying to figure out, how do I go and do my graduate degree and also support my husband. Because your job was in one place. And the graduate program I wanted to go to was in a very different place. My teachers were advising me, just go and support your husband. That is your role. And that was. It felt a little defeating to have to put my ambitions on the back burner.

John Dehlin [03:04:19] What did you want to do in grad school?

Kim Coffin [03:04:21] I wanted to be a marriage and family therapist.

John Dehlin [03:04:22] Okay. Where.

Kim Coffin [03:04:24] I was looking at a few colleges that were in Texas because that's where we were moving. But it would have meant that we had to live separately and commute back

Josh Coffin [03:04:32] and forth, which I was always supportive of. We did have our. Our daughter our senior year, but it was like a really hard time for, like, byu, Idaho had this culture of that the women's degrees didn't matter as much as the. The men's and the engineering classes. The accounting classes were like 95% men. There just were very few women in any of those, you know, whatever you want to call it. But it was just. There was this system of patriarchy that the girls would drop out to support the husbands, or, like, if the husband had an internship, the women would go with them. Right. And it was never the opposite. Yeah.

Kim Coffin [03:05:05] We were kind of a strange couple in that I stayed when you went on your internship. I stayed back and kept my job and stayed in school. People were like, oh, you're gonna get a divorce. You can't be separated for three months. And I was like, well, my degree is really important to me, and my job is important to me.

Josh Coffin [03:05:22] And I was all for you staying, because I was like, I can do 12 weeks alone in a dorm in San Jose, California, at an accounting internship, and you can stay at BYUI and finish the things you want to finish. We spent 12 weeks apart our junior year so that she could keep going on her degree because it mattered. And, yeah.

Kim Coffin [03:05:39] And honestly, my degree was life changing for us to learn so much about what family systems should look like, what healthy family relationships look like, to learn about child development, to learn different parenting methods and techniques. And that was when I started realizing, like, oh, there were some things that happened in my childhood that were not normal, and we're not going to do these things. We're not going to. To pass on these ideas and these values to our children.

Josh Coffin [03:06:10] And even when I would come to the marriage with, like, my sort of contentious upbringing of having to look perfect, she would say, no, no, no, because of the schooling that she had, she'd say, no, no. This is how a real relationship. Like, neither of us knew what a healthy relationship looked like. But because of her degree, it helped us, like, form some better habits early on.

Margi Dehlin [03:06:30] It's some guide posts.

Josh Coffin [03:06:32] Yeah, right. Even though all the people were dismissive of her degree, like, it wasn't good enough, which still just ticks me off to this day, because it's like, it was so impactful to us and to you. Right. And she did take her minor. Her minor was clothing construction. And that she took into building her business that she does now, which is sewing and crafting and online content. Right. So she still used her education. I mean, she learned how to make every type of clothing there is during her minor. But I just hate the dismissiveness of women's education. I've always thought that was bizarre. Or women working. I've always thought that was like. Anyway, sorry, Too much feminism coming out of my mouth.

Preparedness Beliefs Carried Into Marriage

John Dehlin [03:07:13] I'm curious whether you, Kim, brought Mormon Preparism into your marriage, whether you rejected that or still believed it, and whether that kind of this Mormon neo fundamentalism, whether it informed your marriage at all,

Kim Coffin [03:07:32] I definitely brought it into our marriage. You did and definitely still was struggling with scrupulosity. So I, I think it hasn't been until recently that you found out just how much was going on inside of my head that I didn't share with you. I was very, very quiet when we first got married. I like barely spoke. So it's taken me several years to find my voice and to even just figure out what it is that I feel or think. And so, yeah, I definitely had a lot of things going on in my head, but I don't think I voiced them as much to you. But our pantry was filled with food storage and we were trying to prepare for things. We had lots of little things we would spend money on to, you know, we need to buy this and you need to have that. And we did have. We took security in knowing that my father had all the things that we would need. Like he bought, I think a year's worth of food storage.

Josh Coffin [03:08:33] I think it was five years or

Kim Coffin [03:08:34] something when we got married for you. And that was like his present to you. Welcome to the family. You can live with us if the, you know, if the end times happens during our lifetime.

Josh Coffin [03:08:43] Thanks, dad.

Kim Coffin [03:08:45] And so, yeah, I definitely brought some of those things in. And on occasion I would read a book here and read a book there. And I, like I said before, I feel like I had these like waves of scrupulosity where it would focus on different things. And sometimes it was prepping and sometimes it was other religious things.

Margi Dehlin [03:09:06] Yeah.

Josh Coffin [03:09:06] Perfectionism. Yeah. Being the perfect mom, being the perfect wife.

Kim Coffin [03:09:11] I think my desire to prep or take part in those materials online,

Margi Dehlin [03:09:23] it

Kim Coffin [03:09:23] was worse after I had a baby.

Josh Coffin [03:09:25] Yeah.

Kim Coffin [03:09:25] Remember it was really bad after I had postpartum. No, right out right before we had Lincoln. Because we were living in Dallas, Texas, and we were 10 minutes away from the Ebola outbreak. I don't know if you remember that, but when it first happened, it was really scary in that area. And I thought, like in that book it talks about, does it say a virus or.

Josh Coffin [03:09:53] It was 2015, this was going on in 2014, that we were in Dallas.

Kim Coffin [03:09:56] I remember in the Visions of Glory book, it talks about a virus. Yeah. Like a man made virus that will cover you in bumps and spots and then it would leak pus and you would die and it would be so terrible that you would put yourself in a body Bag and zip it up. To die in there so that your family wouldn't be exposed to

Josh Coffin [03:10:24] was the breakout.

Kim Coffin [03:10:24] And then there was an Ebola out 10 minutes away from us. And our ward had been on the same. So one of the. Let's see, the nurses that had treated the Ebola patient, she flew out of Dallas to somewhere else. And our ward, I think the teenagers were flying to Trek, and they flew on the same plane, like one flight after her. And so our ward was just a mess for the next week after that had happened. After we found out they all got letters from. From the government and the faa, from the cdc. I was so scary, and I was like, this is it, Josh. This is it. We're all gonna die. It's happening. This is the thing that.

Josh Coffin [03:11:09] This is the end before COVID Right.

Margi Dehlin [03:11:12] This is.

Josh Coffin [03:11:12] This is 2014, 2015.

Kim Coffin [03:11:13] And you mix that with. With. Then I have my baby, and you mix that with like, postpartum anxiety and ocd. And I was a mess.

Margi Dehlin [03:11:22] Yeah. Layers upon layers.

Josh Coffin [03:11:25] So scrupulosity fixated in different areas. It wasn't always the food storage, but we always had, you know, guns and food storage. And I had these things that you could put in the bathtub to fill them up with water before the water was contaminated.

Margi Dehlin [03:11:37] Yeah.

Kim Coffin [03:11:37] Because the book says there will be almost no clean water for drinking. And that was one of my biggest fears, is I have. Have a bait. I have two babies. Like, how am I going to get them water? So you had these bathtub inflatables that you just fill up with water. So you have drinking water before the.

Josh Coffin [03:11:53] Just the government corrupts the line of water or whatever. And I always thought it was kind of odd, but I just played along because this was like my father in law and. Yeah, and just, you know, part of the family. I wanted, you know, to be part of the family. And yeah, we didn't talk about sports. We talked about prepping. That was the only thing we could have in common. So I put on a face to try to fit in. And so. Yeah, but it was always extreme.

John Dehlin [03:12:20] Well, I think this is a good place. There's so much more I want to hear. Things are going to get really intense when we start talking about the Visions of Glory book. And I'll just say again, this is Tom Harrison's book. Utah therapist Tom Harrison, his book, Visions of Glory. It has now been identified as an inspiration to alleged murders Chad Dabel and Lori Valo. Alleged abuser Tim Ballard of Operation Underground Railroad. Imprisoned. Abusive. Allegedly abusive therapist Jody Hildebrandt. As well as Judy Rowe as well as others. It just seems like Mormon prepper neo fundamentalism is in chaos right now with so much crime and disorder and death. And this book, visions of Glory, you know, inspired by the stories of Tom Harrison, seem to be at the heart of all this mayhem. So we don't go away, come right back for part two because we're going to talk about this book, you know, Kim's dad, the Avow movement, the prepper movement, and their perspectives on, on watching that relatively up close unfold and then you know, how that affected their own journey. But your dad knew Chad Daybelt. Correct. And Julie Rowe and Rod Meldrum and all these characters, you know, all these things are really interwoven. So thank you so much, Josh and Kim, for your willingness to tell such powerful and vulnerable stories in part one. Thank you, Margi, for being here and for being co host and we're super, we're super excited to come right back for part two after a break.

Josh Coffin [03:14:24] Thanks. Appreciate you both.

John Dehlin [03:14:26] All right, thanks everyone. Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. We rely on your donations to survive and to continue. We lose recurring donors every month, so I will just ask that if you value this type of content, if you want to see it continue, we really do need you to sign up as a monthly donor if you're able to. So you can go to mormonstories.org click on the donate button, become a monthly donor and we're transparent in our finances. And all that you donate will go towards our cause, which is creating content to provide informed consent for Mormons and never Mormons and questioning Mormons, but also to support Mormons in transition as well. Give a quick shout out for your YouTube channel as well, just for those who don't know about it.

Josh Coffin [03:15:19] So sweet Red poppy is the YouTube channel. It's on all the platforms, so YouTube, obviously, but it's on Pinterest, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok. It's DIY crafting and sewing content. We have online courses, PDF, ebooks, lots of free patterns and files over 350 blog posts on the website. Kim created it all from home and started this huge business and really helped a lot of people learn how to craft Cricut machines, sewing machines, even a quilting course that's coming out soon. She's quite the creative and so, so talented.

Kim Coffin [03:15:53] Thanks. Brilliant.

John Dehlin [03:15:54] And this is a long shot, but are you wearing any clothes you made?

Kim Coffin [03:15:58] Not today.

John Dehlin [03:15:59] Okay. Okay.

Josh Coffin [03:15:59] She went shopping for more.

John Dehlin [03:16:03] Beautiful. All right, well, thanks, Kim and Josh. Thanks, Margi. Thanks everybody. Everyone. And come right back for part two of our interview with Kim and Josh Coffin. Thanks, everybody.

Visions of Glory and the AVOW Prepper Movement

Part 2 of 3 · Ep. 1829

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I am your host for today along with my partner, Margi. It is October 16, 2023, and we are here in part two of our interview with Kim and Josh Coffin. Hey, y'. All. How's it going?

Kim Coffin [00:00:19] Great.

John Dehlin [00:00:20] How was lunch?

Kim Coffin [00:00:21] It was great, thank you.

John Dehlin [00:00:23] And we're here trying to get the root of The Ruby Franke 8 passengers, Jody Hildebrandt Scand, the Tim Ballard Operation Underground Railroad scandal, the Lori Valo and Chad Dabel murders, and you know, Julie Rowe and you know Rod Meldrum and all the other, as I like to call them, neo fundamentalist, prepper Mormon kind of scandals that keep erupting in the news. And me, along with Lauren Matthias of Hidden True Crime and my friend Megan Connor and Mindy Caldwell, we're doing a series on what we believe is a prime inspiration for all of this Mormon mayhem, all of this Mormon chaos. The book is called Visions of Glory. It's attributed to John Pontius. You will have already heard the episodes about this book, so I won't go into it other than to say this is a book written by a man named Tom Harrison, who's a therapist in Salt Lake City. And he doesn't use his name in the book, but we all now know who he is. This book has been the inspiration for all the people that I mentioned when Chad and Laurie Daybell were confronted by police after all the murders had happened. You know, there's a video and a photo of Chad and Laurie reading this book. And once you read this book, Visions of Glory, you will see how it has inspired all of these problems and more. And so we spent a good three hours with Josh and Kim. For those who don't know, Kim's father was one of the leaders, co founders, and I think still is, of the Mormon prepper Internet Facebook community called Avow. Kim's maiden name is Perette. Is that right? Am I pronouncing that right? And for those of you in the Mormon prepper world, that last name will be familiar to you. We spent a good three hours hearing Josh and Kim's Mormon story in terms of their upbringings, particularly Kim's prepper, super conservative Mormon upbringing, also Josh's upbringing, both of them primarily in Idaho. Josh talked a bit about some troubling experiences he had on his mission. And when we left, when we ended part one, they had just gotten married. Kim was 18, Josh was 21. And they spent a good three years at BYU. Idaho, good three, three and a half years at BYU Idaho as good Mormon kids pursuing their education. And all of happens prior to the publication of this book, Visions of Glory. And the book is published in 2012. You guys graduated from BYU Idaho when?

Josh Coffin [00:03:18] 2014.

John Dehlin [00:03:19] 2014. Okay, so the book comes out while you're at BYU Idaho. I stand corrected. So what we're going to do for this next part is we're going to talk about both Kim and Josh's experiences. Watching Kim's dad become friends with Chad Daybell, you know, become a leader in the avow slash Mormon prepper movement. And then what they experienced once Lori Valo's kids go missing and then eventually Chad's wife dies and bodies start being disinterred. You know, Kim's dad had, I want to say, a front row seat to a lot of what was going on and was even a defender, as I understand it, of Chad. And so we just want to back up and spend the next hour or two talking about your experiences. So let's back up. You haven't graduated yet. You had this prepper upbringing, Kim. But I get a sense that things took a turn when this book came. Came out. So let's back up. And Kim, where do you want to pick up in the story now? You know we're going to be talking about visions of glory and all that. And you can correct or add to any. Anything I said in the introduction, please,

Kim Coffin [00:04:36] yes, let's pick up. In college, I, I would even say, I don't know that I saw his beliefs get more intense with the publication of that book specifically, because I think so many of the themes that are shared within that book have been shared by other people in the prepper community who claim to have had visions or dreams about the last days. I will say I did hear specifically some of those things, phrases and visions repeated within my family. And then I also read the book myself. And so it definitely had an impact on us.

John Dehlin [00:05:13] Is it fair to say the publication of this book was a watershed moment in sort of what I like to call neo fundamentalist Mormon preparism? Certainly there was talks of near death experiences before. Certainly there's always been a group of Mormons that have been fascinated with end times. But I just remember whether it's with Julie Rowe again, Chad and Lori, Denver snuffer movement, which really, you know, Denver snuffer ends up getting excommunicated in 2013. It seems like 2012 was a kind of a watershed year. So anyway, where do you guys want to start this part of the story?

Josh Coffin [00:05:49] Well, I think when you got a copy of the book in college. Right. And you read that and it kind of resonated with the other things you had heard.

John Dehlin [00:05:55] Can you talk about when you first heard about the book and how you heard about it?

Kim Coffin [00:05:58] And I don't have a really clear recollection of exactly when I received it

John Dehlin [00:06:03] or you didn't hear about it through your parents?

Kim Coffin [00:06:06] Well, there were a lot of books. There were always books that were being handed to me, like, you should read this and you should read that.

John Dehlin [00:06:13] What were they about?

Kim Coffin [00:06:14] It was always similar, those dreams and visions that people were publishing. And that was from a variety of different authors. So Roger K. Young put out quite a few books about different end days, types of visions, dreams.

John Dehlin [00:06:30] And he was the founder of a vow, right? The original founder. What does the VOW stand for?

Kim Coffin [00:06:34] Another Voice of Warning.

John Dehlin [00:06:35] Okay, okay.

Kim Coffin [00:06:37] And let's see.

Josh Coffin [00:06:38] So his whole garage, your father's entire garage, was filled with shelves of books, right?

Kim Coffin [00:06:44] My father runs a Voice of Warning, which is an online forum. It's behind a paywall. It's a paid membership forum where people join and they can chat about all things preparedness and LDS topics and they chat about everything.

Josh Coffin [00:06:57] It's a paid membership site and there's around 15 to 20,000 members from what we know. And when you were a member? We were members in college as well. We joined and we had access to the forums and there were a lot of products that were pushed through the forums. A lot of books, a lot of authors that your dad recommended and sold their books in that forum.

John Dehlin [00:07:19] When someone would have joined evao, just for someone who's new, maybe they didn't hear the first episode. Why? What type of person would join a vow and why would they join?

Kim Coffin [00:07:30] I definitely think it's going to be someone with that prepper mindset that's looking for additional resources and guidance on what they should be buying, how they should be preparing. Maybe they've come into contact with. There's a manual that my father had published, an LDS preparedness manual. It is not authorized by the church, but it does use the word lds.

Josh Coffin [00:07:54] But he calls it an LDS preparedness manual. He sells it as an author, I think he says it's compiled by. By him.

Kim Coffin [00:08:01] Compiled and edited.

Josh Coffin [00:08:02] Compiled and edited by him. And that is something he sells on the site as well. So I think anyone who's LDS in the prepper space will hear about. It's also very politicized. Right. So if you're a right wing conservative, you'll hear about another Voice of Warning as a site where you can go complain about Democrats. You can post all kinds of different things about politics and the whoever's in office at the time. And then a lot of like, preparedness, things related to the LDS Church about finances and food storage and ammunition. And there's a lot of other things, too.

Kim Coffin [00:08:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:35] Would it be fair to say that it's anti Biden and pro Trump? Generally speaking, the forum, his best years

Josh Coffin [00:08:44] were during Obama, right?

Kim Coffin [00:08:46] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:08:46] Whenever a. Oh, anti Biden. Anti Obama.

Josh Coffin [00:08:50] Yeah. During the eight years of Biden or Obama were some of his best years.

Kim Coffin [00:08:53] His membership always declines. His membership typically declines during. When we have a more liberal or Democratic president and then. Or, sorry, his membership goes up during those years and then declines during a conservative president. And yeah, he. I think he has a Facebook group also or Facebook page that gets a lot of traction where he shares some interesting memes. A lot of times they have like, racist undertones or they're homophobic or they're anti government, anti lgbtq. His Facebook profile gets shut down on the regular. So he has multiple ones that he will switch back and forth so that he can run that page. But I think that also is bringing people into the paid membership.

John Dehlin [00:09:45] You know, and I. We haven't really talked about Denver Snuffer, but Denver Snuffer precedes Denver. At least one of Denver Snuffer's books precedes Visions of Glory. And his excommunication would have happened a year after. Is that a name? And would his books have been familiar to y'? All?

Kim Coffin [00:10:03] You'll have to give me a quick synopsis of that. I can't remember. It sounds familiar, but I'm not.

John Dehlin [00:10:09] He's basically the guy that teaches that you can have personal visits with Jesus, that if you pray and fast and are righteous enough, you can have your own personal witness of Jesus. And he was excommunicated for that in 2013. Passing the heavenly Gift is a book. And I believe the Second Comforter might be a book of Denver Snuffers. There's several, but he's end up. His church is called the Remnant Church. Once he was excommunicated, a bunch of people left with him and started a schism. But that's not a name you're even familiar with. That's interesting.

Kim Coffin [00:10:46] He's not ringing any bells.

Josh Coffin [00:10:47] I mean, I know it was in the forum that was always talked about. I think the focus was on Tent City and a lot of the prepping materials. I think Julie Rowe was always there. Well, yeah, I don't think that name was okay.

John Dehlin [00:10:59] Julie was there.

Josh Coffin [00:10:59] Yeah, Julie Rowe was there. Julie Rowe was definitely there.

Kim Coffin [00:11:01] And then Chad was there. He was an author. So my father runs LDS Avow, which is the forum, but then there's also a bookstore that is attached to it. So that is filled with books from people who are in the website or in the forum. So like it had Chad Dabel's books, it had Julie Rose books. I don't know that Julie's on. I don't think she's on that website anymore. It had like Sarah Monet who had a life near death experience. Who else? It still has Visions of Glory is sold on there.

Josh Coffin [00:11:39] Roger K. Young. And then also your father had his own books as well. So just a lot of different books that were thrown at us in a college age.

John Dehlin [00:11:48] And these books generally spoke about what.

Kim Coffin [00:11:52] So it would be near death experiences. What does it look like if you cross through and then come back? And then also what does the end times look like? Maybe what does the call out look like? So that's speaking more to that 144,000 people that get called out and maybe live in those 10 cities. So lots of different visions and dreams that people have had. And some of those books are compilations of multiple visions from various people. Yeah, lots of different. But I think that they tend to stick to those themes.

John Dehlin [00:12:29] Okay, and really quickly, do you have a sense for how AVOW people view the Mormon Church Prophet, First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve view them? Do they? Is there a sense that they are operating in conjunction with the church leadership, in opposition to the church leadership, in ignorance of the church leadership?

Kim Coffin [00:12:54] I think most of the people on that forum are in good standing with the church, but believe that maybe there are some things that are being kept from the general population because it's being saved for the select few or people who have a higher understanding of righteousness? I think a lot of the people within that forum are good people who are seeking like further knowledge. I think one of the problems is that once you get in there and you start reading all of these dreams and visions, if you have any ocd, like mental health issues, it can get very problematic because you can start running with these ideas if that makes sense.

Josh Coffin [00:13:42] A lot of theories are shared. A lot of conspiracy theories, a lot of conspiracy theories, a lot of politics are shared, a lot of anti government, but they are generally in good standing with the church. A lot of them were. They believed in the church, they believed in the prophet. They felt that they were doing good things by trying to get others to prep it wasn't so exclusive that no one else could join. I mean, the whole goal was to get others to join. They wanted to grow the forum and encourage others to buy prepping supplies and to really take the last days seriously. And so, I mean, we were young college students and we would come across associates of your father that would encourage us. And at 21, 22, who's putting food storage in their pantry in college? So.

Kim Coffin [00:14:24] But yeah, I would say most people were in good standing and they thought that they were furthering their own knowledge and doing something that the general public just wasn't aware of yet.

John Dehlin [00:14:36] But I wonder if they felt like they were ahead of the brethren, that the brethren were out of step, that the brethren were old and unaware or clueless or even that the church was a little bit in apostasy. Maybe.

Kim Coffin [00:14:50] It really depends on the specific people, because I think a lot of them were fully devout to the leadership of the church. And then there were some of them that I would see that felt as though maybe the leadership had gone astray. I don't think that specific idea was something that my father allowed to be talked about very much. I think if that did come up, he was quick to shut that down. I could be wrong on that, but from what I saw when we were on there, most of the things they discussed had to be generally approved by the Church, outside of the idea of visions and dreams, which is odd because a lot of the prophets have come out and said that a person who has a dream or a vision or a spiritual experience like that, that's something that they should keep to themselves. And if they ever are to share that information, it should only be done with the general authority or the presiding authority of the Church at that time, giving them permission first. So it's interesting to me that there is that contradiction within that group. I'm not really sure how to make sense of that.

John Dehlin [00:16:03] Yeah, like I mentioned this last time, and I'll mention it every time, like, the church has been so vigilant and punishing to progressive Mormons, to doubting Mormons, to liberal Mormons, so many excommunications, so much policing and threats. They could be the same way with these prepper Mormons. Do y' all have theories as to why they've gotten to pass when the church could have just as easily cracked down on your dad on all these other people? Like, I don't even know if Chad Dabel or Lori Valla to this day have been excommunicated. We don't know. But there certainly hasn't been the vigilance and the punishments towards preppers as towards liberals and doubters and progressives. Any ideas on why?

Josh Coffin [00:16:53] I think so too. If you look at the church's history and politics, right, with the Prop 8 in California and the things that they have publicly and politically fought, they tend to be a right group. The church tends to be right leaning. And so these preppers fall into a. The church fosters a culture that's friendly to the right wing side and allows them to share their ideas in a safer way. They don't fear retribution because they're Republicans and they're right wing and they're doing what they need to do for their families. I think the politics always align that way too.

Kim Coffin [00:17:30] Yeah, but I think you make a great point that it isn't treated fairly. The two different groups on either side, you have the spectrum and you have two on either side. And I don't know why the prepper community hasn't had more policing. And because they haven't had as much. I feel like that furthers their belief that they're doing what's right. Or even when they are police, sometimes they think that's another sign that they are taught they will be opposed. Their beliefs will be different than the general population. Like that's something they speak about a lot. Even within Visions of Glory. That there will be backlash and there will be people pushing back, saying that you're wrong and that really is the wheats being sorted from the tares. Right.

John Dehlin [00:18:20] So the wheat and the tares applies to members in sort of the prepper community.

Kim Coffin [00:18:25] Definitely.

John Dehlin [00:18:25] That like less faithful members. Mormon church members are the tares.

Kim Coffin [00:18:31] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:18:31] And the wheat are the elect, the 144,000. The people who will be called out. Or basically the faithful preppers.

Kim Coffin [00:18:39] Yeah. The tares, the tears would be the not as strong believers. Right.

John Dehlin [00:18:44] And the weak would be that what I said, Did I, Did I say,

Kim Coffin [00:18:46] yeah, okay, okay, yeah. And it even says in Visions of Glory. It does talk about that specifically that he's speaking. Let's see, after all of the calamities have happened and people are getting call outs, he says, like it isn't everyone in the Mormon church that's getting called out. It's like the elect, he gets this special red ticket where he's invited to general conference and he gets to see Jesus speaking and he's translated because of this. But only is he allowed to have that experience. He's only allowed to have that experience because he was so righteous.

Josh Coffin [00:19:25] They lived a higher law within the Church. So it's almost like there's a sect within Mormonism of like, we take it further, we have more rules for ourselves, we know more, we have more visions, more understanding.

Kim Coffin [00:19:41] And I wouldn't say that's the case with 100% of the people in that forum, but I do think people who stay there for a while, their beliefs tend to get more intense.

Josh Coffin [00:19:51] It is peer pressure within the forum. Right.

Kim Coffin [00:19:53] I mean, there's definitely fear mongering.

Josh Coffin [00:19:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:56] Okay, so the. And I'm guessing you've never heard of the name Tom Harrison before.

Kim Coffin [00:20:04] I hadn't heard of it before you posted about it, no.

John Dehlin [00:20:07] Okay. Yeah. Because I think there have probably been people who've known or suspected for years, but it's been kept really quiet. And Tom Harrison, you will have already heard about this, viewers and listeners. We're going to be releasing the episodes recording tomorrow. Before we release this, probably. But he's been an active, faithful member, you know, from the time he published the book till now. The Brethren find out about this book between 2012 and 2013, threatened him with excommunication, but then made him a bishop and allowed the book to continue being published. Which is crazy knowing now that it inspired Tim Ballard, Lori Valo, Chad dabell, Jody Hildebrandt and so many other bad actors. But are there any. So. So Tom Harrison's not a name y' all would know. Definitely Chad dabell. Any other people we should be asking? Like I was just going to say, let's start talking about your first memories of Chad Daybell and how it all interacted, but are there any other big name players we should be talking about as you're telling your story, that are big names in the community that like Tim Ballard, like Rod Meldrum, like. Like others.

Kim Coffin [00:21:24] I would say I don't have a recollection of a lot of the big players in that space. When I would log on to avow, I was more like doing my own research on what specifically do I need to be preparing. And I was less interested in the dreams and visions because they can be very unsettling. So that isn't something I see like graphic, right? Uhhuh. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:45] Violent, sexual.

Kim Coffin [00:21:47] Yes. And I have very bad anxiety, so that was one of the things that would just send me spiraling. I don't know what your experience was.

John Dehlin [00:21:54] You nodded when I said Rod Meldrum.

Josh Coffin [00:21:56] Yeah, I remember seeing the names together when they would speak together at the Expo Firm. So there was a. There's a couple of them where you can see Tim Ballard's Name next to Meldrum, to also to Chad Dabel, sort of speaking at the same events where their books are being cycled, their ideas are being.

John Dehlin [00:22:11] What about Julie Rowe?

Josh Coffin [00:22:12] Julie Rowe was also part of that. So they're going to the same speaking

John Dehlin [00:22:16] conferences and Jody Hildebrand too, at least at some point.

Josh Coffin [00:22:19] At some point, yeah, later. And so it's all in the same circle. They all have their own theories, their own visions. And it's, you know, once you're in there in the forums, it's very influential because people are sharing excerpts from these different books. And I think there was a point where your dad, what he published, didn't he get in trouble for taking too much from the LDS Church and trying to pass it off as his own?

Kim Coffin [00:22:42] Or I know that he received at least one letter, if not several letters from Salt Lake City with concerns about the book that he had published and

John Dehlin [00:22:52] it was about his near death experiences.

Kim Coffin [00:22:54] His book is a compilation of different dreams and visions from other people. I think I might have his as well. It's been years since I've read that, so I might not be up to speed on that.

John Dehlin [00:23:08] I mean the church is in a pickle. The Mormon Church is in a pickle because the Book of Mormon starts out. It's not just Nephi having visions. Lehi's having visions like Joseph Smith was having visions. His mom was a visionary, like his dad was a visionary. Like the church can't shut down and denounce visions because that's. And I think the Mormon scriptures encourage, and maybe even the Bible encourage you to seek your own witness and to get your own visions. And, and like the way Mormon epistemology works, you're encouraged to get your own testimony. And you know, Mormonism was founded on the idea of spiritual gifts. We believe in, oh, the article of faith. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing and the interpretation of tongues, etc. Now that sounds more Pentecostal but than it does Mormonism. But how can the Mormon church ever walk away from visions when it's right there in the articles of faith? I'm sorry, I'm rambling.

Josh Coffin [00:24:10] No, that's exactly spot on. I mean I feel like personal revelation, it's like at what extent are your visions more important than mine?

John Dehlin [00:24:18] Who's right?

Josh Coffin [00:24:19] Yeah. And who's writing about it? Who's published their visions? Who hasn't? It's all very he said, she said. And at what point are these visions just too many of the, you know, of the, of these conspiracies or these really kind of cult like leaders that are kind of peddling these ideas.

Kim Coffin [00:24:35] And when it gets tricky too, because you have had prophets say, first off, you shouldn't be sharing these. This is something that is just for you. This is personal revelation. It's not meant for the general population. But then in addition to that, you also have which prophet was it that said, see, he said that every dream that people have or vision that people have of the end times would be different and no one would have the exact same dream or vision and there would be discrepancies. And so you have all of these people having all of these different visions and dreams. And that lines up with what he says. But then also I thought we weren't supposed to be sharing them because they're private.

John Dehlin [00:25:22] Yeah. And those who know anything about this book, Visions of Glory, will know that in the very first couple chapters, like in the introduction, Tom Harrison claims that he shared his visions with an apostle. We now know it's Neal A. Maxwell who was the apostle he shared the visions with. And Neal A. Maxwell tells, according to Tom Harrison tells him that's a true vision. But don't try and interpret it. According to Tom Harrison, Neal A. Maxwell tells him, someone will come along later to help you interpret your dream. And then Tom Harrison interprets that as John Pontius, who then becomes the scribe. But this book, part of the reason why I think this book has become so successful is because Tom Harrison name drops not just apostles, but God and Jesus themselves as saying they appeared to him. They validated this book. And Neal A. Maxwell did. And I think he knew Gordon B. Hinckley too, because I think he was also in Gordon Meekley's ward at some point. And so by name dropping apostles, he's basically saying, this book's just for me, it's just my revelations. But several Mormon apostles and prophets and Jesus himself have endorsed it, which is a problem, you know, is a problem.

Kim Coffin [00:26:38] And I think, think that the book is filled with different types of fallacies. One of those being appeal to authority where he is name dropping. But then if you are name dropping, why not come out with your actual name if you really do have approval. But also I think the approval should have been from the prophet, not one of the quorum of the 12. And then another issue was the other one I was thinking of.

John Dehlin [00:27:05] Well, as you're, as you're thinking, oh, go ahead, sorry.

Kim Coffin [00:27:07] He even says in there, I'm not publishing these dreams or visions to change the way other people feel or to inspire or provoke I'm just sharing it and it's like, well, why would you.

John Dehlin [00:27:20] Right. It's just personal revelation. He's saying it's just personal revelation for me.

Kim Coffin [00:27:23] But I mean, I'm a published author on a very different topic. But you publish your work to change, to inspire, to educate. If that is not one of your goals, probably just keep it to yourself.

John Dehlin [00:27:36] Yeah, yeah. If it's revelation just for him, why is he printing hundreds of thousands of copies and selling them, if not millions? Okay, so would you have heard about your dad's interactions with Chad Dabell before Visions of Glory comes out? Before 2012 or after? Or do you? I don't expect you to totally remember

Kim Coffin [00:27:56] Positive on that timeline.

John Dehlin [00:27:57] Okay. Okay. Well, then let's just talk about what this book meant to you both when you first learned about it, and then we'll go to Chad Debel.

Kim Coffin [00:28:07] I don't know that Josh read the entire book. I think I shared excerpts with him.

Josh Coffin [00:28:13] Yeah. You always were given books by your dad and would read them and I would kind of avoid it.

Kim Coffin [00:28:19] I had my fringe beliefs that I'd like go into a little hole and read about and then come out and be like, did you know about this? And Josh would kind of question, are you sure about that? And he'd be like, oh, he doesn't know. He just doesn't, you know, he doesn't know the higher law and the higher information.

John Dehlin [00:28:34] And what you were, you were at byu, Idaho at the time, right? What made you want to read this book on top of your academic studies, talk about your motivation and your interest in the book?

Kim Coffin [00:28:44] Yeah, so many.

John Dehlin [00:28:45] Especially given that your childhood wasn't great, right?

Kim Coffin [00:28:47] Yes. My motivation for reading any of those types of books, even for being on the forum, was I was always seeking validation from my father. And the only way you get validation from him is if you are well read and well educated on the topics that he is interested in. If you want to have a conversation with him, it's not going to be about what's going on in your life. It's going to be about what's going on in his life and if you can relate to him. Like, it's very egocentric. So my attempt to have a relationship with my father was what are you interested in that I can also show interest in? I want to be able to talk to you when I come over. So these books, that was always a great way. And if I did show more interest in the forum, that was always well received. So conditional love really was the driving

Josh Coffin [00:29:31] force behind that And I joined the forum, too, because of that. Right. I wanted to be involved in this, all these members. And he'd throw big parties at his house for 4th of July and have a lot of members of the forum over. We'd meet people from all over the country that would come.

John Dehlin [00:29:46] Dozens, hundreds of.

Josh Coffin [00:29:48] A couple hundred, I would say. Right. 100, 150 would show up to his house. People. We had no idea who they were. Just random forum members from Canada and from Europe and from all over the United States that would come that were

Kim Coffin [00:30:03] preppers and an interesting group.

Josh Coffin [00:30:05] Very interesting group. Everybody was.

Kim Coffin [00:30:08] It was interesting because he would even kind of mock some of the people that had showed up like that. They were weird. But I was like, well, these are your people. Why mock them if these are the people you associate with?

John Dehlin [00:30:20] And at the height of a vow, how many members do you think?

Kim Coffin [00:30:23] I think 15,000 was the top. And I think that that was during COVID years. I know during COVID when there was a lot of speculation and some ideas that we don't necessarily agree with, he had a huge influx of people that were scared, and so they came there seeking more information and comfort and guide us on what we should do. Is this the virus that everyone has been talking about?

John Dehlin [00:30:49] Oh, the one you talked about last time?

Josh Coffin [00:30:51] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:30:52] Okay.

Josh Coffin [00:30:53] Yeah. Like one of the end vision. Like one of the end calamities in the book. There's a virus. Right.

John Dehlin [00:30:58] Also, there was an earthquake that knocked part of Angel Moroni's trumpet off the Salt Lake Temple, and Julie Rhode prophesied about that earthquake or whatever.

Guest [00:31:08] Yep.

Josh Coffin [00:31:09] Yeah. So the virus. So Covid really was a catalyst to some of those theories. Right. In 2020. And it grew to be a larger. Because of those theories. And.

John Dehlin [00:31:20] Yeah. Okay. So going back to 2012, 13, you're reading the book largely to please your dad, but maybe you also have some of those beliefs. What'd you think of Visions of Glory?

Kim Coffin [00:31:33] It's very unsettling. It's interesting that the author says in there that he withheld a lot of the information because he didn't want to cause fear or panic or incite riots. And yet what's in there is very graphic, and it's unsettling. So as me, as a person with OCD, who tends to, like, fixate on an idea, and then having anxiety was a lot, and I. I would get scared, and then I would come to you, and you'd kind of set me straight, like, it's all gonna be okay.

Josh Coffin [00:32:07] Yeah. It was always kind of like this Is this feels very conspiracy theory. This feels very sort of culty. And I just don't know if we should be. You know, we have a young family or we're in college. Like, is this our primary concern right now? Like, it's hard when you're enmeshed with your family and you're trying to get validation from a narcissistic father who has a following. It's hard because you're trying to make your dad proud and. But we're in the middle of our degrees. We're trying to move our family. We had our oldest kid the senior year. You know, it's hard because you're trying to make your family proud, but you're also trying to make your own new family.

Kim Coffin [00:32:42] So.

Josh Coffin [00:32:42] And meshment has always been a struggle. And yeah, reading that was always pretty brutal.

John Dehlin [00:32:49] Okay, and so what takeaways did you have from reading Visions of Glory? Did it affect you at all?

Kim Coffin [00:32:57] I know. I don't know if it was Visions of Glory specifically or even just being on the forum more, but we did start buying more food storage. We did buy like 72 hour backpacks and kits. And we spoke in the last episode. We had this inflatable tub water container. It was like this like think Ziploc bag that's made to sit in the tub and hold water. Because some of the visions were that there wouldn't be clean drinking water accessible. So if anything were to happen, you should go fill that up immediately. And there were definitely times that when we'd see things on tv, I'd be like, is it time? Do we need to get it out?

Josh Coffin [00:33:40] Also ammunition, Guns. Right. I collected.

Kim Coffin [00:33:43] You bought several guns so that we could be prepared.

Josh Coffin [00:33:46] Yep. To make your dad happy. And lots of food and water storage. Also like first aid kits and all kinds of. And also things that could be traded.

Guest [00:33:55] Right.

Josh Coffin [00:33:55] Things that could be like. Like feminine products and just, you know,

John Dehlin [00:33:59] like you said, alcohol and cigarettes.

Josh Coffin [00:34:01] Cigarettes for when the addicts need it, when the world's over and you can trade and barter for the alcoholics and get more food and things for your family. So I lugged. We have. How many times do we move? Eight to 10 times. All those different internships. And I would lug all of that food storage from location to location. Like it was just part of our life. Like all of these bins and bins and bins of. And we would get food storage for Christmas from grandparents. It wasn't just your father. It was his father.

Kim Coffin [00:34:32] Yeah, his father.

Josh Coffin [00:34:33] Just. We would get. Oh h. You know, Merry Christmas or Happy Birthday, and it would be a huge thing of food storage.

John Dehlin [00:34:38] Not his mom, though.

Kim Coffin [00:34:40] I'm not his mother. No.

Josh Coffin [00:34:41] She was like, don't.

Kim Coffin [00:34:43] Was not in on this.

John Dehlin [00:34:45] Okay, so. So you. You started preparing. You talked last time about, like, what's it like to be bringing kids into the world when you're also starting to believe that the world's about to end any day. Tom Harrison says in Visions of Glory, the Second Coming comes during his lifetime because he has visions of being in Salt Lake, like at church headquarters, because he's buds with the quorum of the 15. He's got his briefcase, and all of a sudden he, you know, the earthquake happens and the fault line splits and Salt Lake floods. And Tom Harrison sees his own participation in Armageddon. I don't know what to call it. Armageddon. So, I mean, what's it like to be having a young family when you're also entertaining these ideas that the world as you know it is about to end and you're likely to be swallowed up in flooding and earthquakes?

Kim Coffin [00:35:36] It was very frightening to read that book along with other visions and dreams, because at this point, I'm questioning, like, is it worth bringing kids into this? Is this an experience that I really want to be alive for? Because it sounds pretty terrible. It sounds like the walking Dead, minus the zombies. Like, I don't know that I want to be part of this. It's pretty intense.

Josh Coffin [00:35:59] Well, you have to. You have to reconcile that with what the Brethren are telling you, and that's to multiply and replenish, and that it's never. You're never going to have enough money or it's never going to be the right time to have a kid, but just have a kid anyway. Like, you just need to have a kid. And so you go against all logical thought about, let's just have kids. And we were kids having kids. Kim was 21. I was 24 when we had our first child. Your brain is not developed till you're 25.

John Dehlin [00:36:23] Or 6.

Josh Coffin [00:36:24] Yeah. Or 26. Right. And so we were children having children, because that's just part of the culture and very acceptable. But we also feared the end times. I mean, the Brethren talk about end times all. All the time in their talks and were to fear the second Coming. And so it is weird. It's kind of weird to have a child in the midst of all this fear of the end of the world. That doesn't make sense.

Kim Coffin [00:36:46] Well, even within mainstream Mormonism, we're taught that we're the chosen generation and that the second coming will happen during our lifetime. So that's not even a fringe belief. Like that is completely validated from the mainstream Mormon church.

John Dehlin [00:37:02] It's the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints for a reason. Right?

Kim Coffin [00:37:06] Yeah, but how long are the latter days is the question.

John Dehlin [00:37:11] No, we just had Bible scholar Dan McClellan on and he said that Christians have been expecting Jesus to return ever since Jesus died, and including the immediate apostles of Jesus. He says revelation was written for the people still alive during the time Jesus died. The revelation was never written for us. Now that's what Bible scholar Dan McClellan says. So this idea of like it's any day now, it should be viewed as a joke.

Guest [00:37:42] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:37:42] But instead every new generation sees themselves, every new Mormon generation sees themselves as Saturday's warrior, as the chosen elect, saved for the last day to usher in the millennium. I bought it when I was, you know, 18. I believed it, you know.

Josh Coffin [00:38:00] Yeah, fear mongering sells, right? It works. It makes us think that it's coming.

John Dehlin [00:38:05] And it doesn't just sell because I would guess it also provides meaning and purpose and energy and identity and community and all the things we lack that religion's supposed to provide. Right, Great point.

Kim Coffin [00:38:19] Yeah. And I think so many people find value in their skills too. Even within that avow group, there's a wide variety of skills that people have. And you come into this group and suddenly you're valued for. Well, I'm great at sewing, so I will be a great help in the end times when we need to make clothing or sew a wound or, you know, whatever that may be, what skill you have, how is that going to help everyone in the end times? So you really do have that sense of community that you're creating and sense of purpose. So. Yeah.

Chad Daybell and the Doomsday Prophecy Community

John Dehlin [00:38:53] So when do you remember Chad Daybell, his name or him, his person showing up on the scene?

Josh Coffin [00:39:01] I remember the books. Right. We talked, saw the books and then he would, your dad would talk about.

John Dehlin [00:39:05] His books were about near death experiences, Right. Like, didn't he publish Julie Rose books? And he had his own books on near death experiences.

Kim Coffin [00:39:12] He has his own publishing company. I think it's Cedar Fort Publishing.

John Dehlin [00:39:18] That may be different.

Kim Coffin [00:39:19] Or is it different? Yeah, I think he has his own publishing company though, because I think he, he published Julie Rose books and I remember hearing about both of them. Again, I was never a worshiper of any specific person. I think you do see that happen within this group where people will find one visionary or one dreamer and really go all in, like, oh, this is the person, and we praise them and we love them. And I was not like that. It was more like, I will read what's out there. But I didn't put a ton of weight into any one of those people. It was more just like, look at all these experiences as a collective. But I'm always going to listen to the prophet. I'm going to wait for him to back all of this up.

Josh Coffin [00:40:05] Yeah. There were a lot of voices within the community that were sort of like mini celebrities within the forum. Right. And Chad was one of those leaders within the forum. Any published author that sold a book within avow, even if it wasn't published beyond avow, if it was just in your dad's garage, many of the published authors were sort of revered, and Chad's name was always part of that. So.

John Dehlin [00:40:30] Yeah, okay, so. And I think Spring Creek was the publisher of Chad Daybell.

Kim Coffin [00:40:36] Of Chad's.

Josh Coffin [00:40:37] Yeah, Spring Creek.

Kim Coffin [00:40:38] Spring Creek. Think at least you think that's the one that he owns? I don't remember.

John Dehlin [00:40:41] That's what I'm. That's what I'm looking for. I'm googling that, but that's what I'm finding.

Kim Coffin [00:40:45] Yeah. I can't remember the name Spring Creek.

John Dehlin [00:40:47] Yeah. Okay. So I guess. I guess it's worth talking about how all this came to a head and affected your relationship with your dad. So do you want to just take us through that story?

Kim Coffin [00:41:01] Yep.

Josh Coffin [00:41:02] We moved away. Right. We graduated college.

Kim Coffin [00:41:05] So we graduated college, moved out of Idaho. We lived in Texas for a year. And we were there during the Ebola outbreak, which I was like, sure, that that was going to be a thing. And I can't remember, did we speak about this in the last episode, Ebola, or was that.

Josh Coffin [00:41:23] It was during lunch. So we didn't.

Kim Coffin [00:41:24] During lunch.

Guest [00:41:24] Yeah.

Kim Coffin [00:41:25] Okay, so when we were living in Dallas, Texas, we were there during the Ebola outbreak, during. Was it patient one? Yeah, he was about 10 minutes away at the hospital. And when that started happening, it does look similar to Visions of Glory because. Let's see, Spencer in the book talks about this illness or sickness that will leave you covered in these pock like marks that burst fluid.

John Dehlin [00:41:57] And to be clear, Spencer is Tom Harrison.

Kim Coffin [00:42:01] Is Tom in the book. Yeah. From what we understand. And so I remember when that first started happening, I called my dad in tears and I'm like, is this it? Is this it? Like, what do I do? I'm about to have a baby. I'm two weeks away from delivering this child. Like, is this gonna be it? Should we move? And he didn't give me a yes or a no. Just like, oh. He always had this to me. He would always say things like, if you're prepared, you need not fear. He did not fear monger so much with me about certain things. But then I would see him have a different attitude. I felt like, at least on the forum where he did incite more of a panic, but he himself was not panicked because he was prepared.

Josh Coffin [00:42:47] Yeah. And Dallas, that was a big deal because this is obviously pre Covid. This is 2014. 2015, let's say 2014. The Ebola scare of Dallas. I remember at the accounting firm that I worked at, we were told to stay home for the week. They almost closed down the whole firm for the week because of this Ebola scare. And I think that really played into some of those theories that you were afraid of from this book. And you call them for reassurance. It wasn't the greatest.

Kim Coffin [00:43:14] No, he didn't give much reassurance either way.

Josh Coffin [00:43:18] Ebola was a big deal coming from Africa. Like, it was a big outbreak.

Kim Coffin [00:43:22] But then didn't EBONY really go anywhere?

Josh Coffin [00:43:24] Then it was solved. It didn't get worse. And that was really good that it didn't get worse. It was just went away.

Kim Coffin [00:43:33] Yeah. And then we moved to California. Lived there for a few years.

Josh Coffin [00:43:36] Lived in California for a few years. And then when we moved back to Utah, that was when.

Kim Coffin [00:43:44] That was when the Day Bell stuff started.

Josh Coffin [00:43:46] Yeah. Well, I remember that. There was a lot of news crews. Right. There was a lot of his name came up in the news. A lot about this missing.

Kim Coffin [00:43:54] Yeah. So the kids went missing. There were reports made and then investigations.

Josh Coffin [00:44:00] The grandparents, remember, the grandparents were trying to find the grandkids. And this is all over the cold case, or not cold case files, but all over the murder mystery, the true crime. True crime. Sorry, that's what they call it, True crime. It was all over. These grandparents are trying to find these kids.

Kim Coffin [00:44:16] So I see my dad's name come up. At this point in time, I'm not active. I'm not actively logging into the forum. My business had taken off, and I was really focusing more on that. And I see his name. Oh, no. We start getting messages. That's where it was like, did you see that your father in law is in the news? And I was like, what?

Josh Coffin [00:44:40] Yeah, to me, your father. And for me, the father in law, his name's popping up with all of the Daybell stuff. And. And you didn't really know that he was publicly.

Kim Coffin [00:44:51] Yeah, I Didn't realize how close they were. Like, I had heard of Chad, but didn't realize that my dad had publicly defended him as not having killed the children. And I guess the news crews, one of the news crews shows up at my parents house. They go and like, ask him for a comment. He doesn't comment. And then my mom calls me to let me know, like, what's going on. And she's really upset and struggling with anxiety and panic attacks, which she was not aware of what panic attacks look like or even what anxiety looked like. And so I told her, I was like, hey, like, what you're dealing with is anxiety. And this is really hard. It can make you feel terrible. You need to see a therapist or a doctor and maybe try out. And I was like, a lot of people in your family are on this specific medication and it's worked pretty well for them. It's interesting to me that she wasn't aware of that and yet her kids were struggling so much with anxiety. Like, it's very painful.

Josh Coffin [00:45:55] Yeah. And I mean, they were looking for the kids. Right. They were trying. And so she was worried because the name is getting dragged through the mud. Like, are the Perrettes a part of this? Like, where are the kids? Are they keeping the kids in the basement?

Kim Coffin [00:46:09] Yes. So my father has a large home that he lives in. I'll preface this by saying my grandmother purchased this home for him. He was then later given it or purchased it at a very discounted counted rate. So people thought that the children must be in the basement of his home because they couldn't logically find any other place that they would be. And he went on to avow and publicly defended Chad. After Chad and Laurie came over to their house and spoke with my father and my mother, they spoke for about an hour about what was going on. And after they spoke, my dad publicly posted on a vow saying that all would be revealed within the next few weeks or so. As soon as I think there was something with like a court case or

Josh Coffin [00:47:02] something, it was a hook to try to get people to come to a vow, like, all will be revealed on a vow. So subscribe now to our membership form

John Dehlin [00:47:11] and you'll get the scoop on what's

Josh Coffin [00:47:13] going on the day bells, because I've spoken with him personally.

John Dehlin [00:47:16] I don't know that it was before Tammy had died.

Josh Coffin [00:47:18] This was. This was after Tammy was died. And then the grandparents were looking for the children.

John Dehlin [00:47:23] Okay.

Josh Coffin [00:47:24] And then they were off in Hawaii. Right. They believe that they went off to Hawaii after they spoke and Then that's when the news broke that the bodies were found. And your dad had publicly defended Chad and also, like, not only in the news, but in the forums.

Kim Coffin [00:47:42] And. Yeah, and he had had a huge, I think, uptick in paid subscribers during that time. Because I don't know that he specifically said, like, subscribe and you'll find out. But he did allude to, I have the information and I will be. Or Chad will be sharing this information at a later point.

Josh Coffin [00:47:59] Right. All will be revealed. But it's kind of mysterious. Like, we know information about this, so it wasn't like, subscribed for it, but it was like, we have information and we will reveal it at some point. Which is all very mysterious. And it's like, how much do you know?

Kim Coffin [00:48:12] And when I called him, I asked like, what is going on? Where are the kids? And why are you connected to this? They look. This doesn't look good. And he assured me that everything was fine and that he knew what was going on and that it was just a. What their lawyers had suggested they do was to hide the kids. For some reason, that didn't really make sense to me. I remember getting off the phone and being like, none of that made sense. I don't feel good about any of this. And coming to you about it.

Josh Coffin [00:48:43] Yeah, it felt very dishonest and, like, kind of weird details were left out. And then come to find out that.

Kim Coffin [00:48:49] And then come to find out they find the children. He posts in his forum saying something like, to the effect of I have to eat crow, or I was wrong. I was.

Josh Coffin [00:49:01] I was.

Kim Coffin [00:49:02] I was lied to. It wasn't really an apology like, I'm sorry, but it was like, I was lied to.

Josh Coffin [00:49:08] And, yeah, never, never at admittance of guilt or, like, association. Even though the news crews were parked outside the house thinking that the kids were there. In fact, you were even concerned about the safety of your sister and your mother before the news was announced that the children were found because they were trying to get information. Like, are the kids in the basement? And your sister and mother were kind of like, why are there news crews camped outside? And you were concerned about their safety? And it was just so dismissive. Even when he was wrong, even when he backed the literal murderer, he was still. He still didn't apologize. It was like, oh, I was lied to, someone else's fault.

Kim Coffin [00:49:48] But I think that experience really opened my eyes because for the first time in my life, I started to question who he was and who he was associating with. And maybe avow isn't all I thought that it was. Maybe Chad isn't the only one who is lying and using his position for power and influence over people because there was a lot of shady things that he was able to do because of the claims that he made.

Josh Coffin [00:50:20] And also I think your family name too, right? Your brother called you concerned about, hey, I have the same last name as

Kim Coffin [00:50:25] dad and do I need to change my name?

Josh Coffin [00:50:27] Was worried that he called us asking about that. And then you took your name off of Facebook because you were getting reached out to by True crime podcast that wanted to know more about your connection to this family. And so it's just the whole, the whole name of the family was all over the, you know, the Internet and it made you really finally question this patriarchal figure of your family and that this forum of a vow is not what I thought it was. And I think that led to some of our experiences questioning other things too at that point about.

John Dehlin [00:51:00] So this has been really helpful to hear the story. I'm kind of a baby in all of this. I've been so busy covering so many things. I have not had the ability to really study the De Bello stuff and the AVOW stuff and the prepper stuff as closely as someone like Lauren Matthias from the Hidden True Crime podcast. She sent me a clip from her YouTube channel. And I recommend everyone subscribe to Mormon stories, but also subscribe to hidden true crime YouTube channel. It's a really important channel for people who want to understand all things Dave El Vallow, all things Prepper, all things Tim Ballard, all things Jody Hildebrandt, Ruby Frankie. It's a great, great channel to go deep, but Lauren, Lauren's going to be interviewed tomorrow. And along with Megan Connor, Lori Valo's cousin, and also our dear friend super sleuther Mindy. But Lauren asked me to watch this clip I'm about to play for our audience and I am. I'm going to have you watch it with me and then I'm going to have y' all respond to it when it's over. Is that okay? That's great. Okay. Okay, so let's go ahead and play it.

▶ Video Clip 1

Video Clip 1 [00:52:27] And visions. Chad started claiming so much so he was continually being asked to speak at conferences. More on those conferences later. And he was being asked to participate on a prepper website called avow or another voice of warning. AVOW focused on preparing for future calamity and chaos that the last days would bring. And it's listed by the Southern Poverty Law center as an anti government extremist. Organization. It was started by a man named Roger K. Young who sold it to his friend Christopher Perrette in East Idaho. Both Young and Perrette would share personal visions and conspiracy theories on the website, which included how members of a vow would help members of the LDS Church survive against invaders of other countries in the American West. Perret wrote on the AVOW website this I quote however, it is our belief that very shortly the world and society as we know it will drastically and suddenly change. The time is shortly coming, which has been prophesied and seen in visions and dreams since the world began. End quote. In fact, Roger K. Young, Christopher Perrette and Chad Daybell co authored a book together, Dreams, Visions and Testimonies of The Last Days, Volume 3, and Perrette offered Chad Dabel a platform to share his visions on avow, even behind a paywall for full paying members. Chad's visions included the establishing of a new Jerusalem in the Last Days. Avow is also the place where he met Julie Rowe, a woman who also claimed to have near death experiences.

Video Clip 1 [00:54:09] In February of 2014, Chad Daybell contacted me off of a police prepper site. I was typing about my dreams and visions at that point had not had just barely started to tell people that

Video Clip 1 [00:54:24] I actually had a near death experience.

Video Clip 1 [00:54:26] And that was when Chad Daybell started publishing Julie Rose books.

Video Clip 1 [00:54:31] I've had six near death experiences and lots of out of bodies.

Video Clip 1 [00:54:35] I came to this planet with the

Video Clip 1 [00:54:36] ability to see, hear Phil and understand the other side of the veil. Several spiritual gifts that I'm not going to get into all of those right now. Everything from being able to see spirits on the other side of the veil or or hear them whether they are of the light or the dark or anything in between.

Video Clip 1 [00:54:55] Many of Chad's visions written on a vow or shared in his speeches included stories leading up to the rumored call out happening just before the Apocalypse. The idea of the call out according to those on a vow means that the most righteous members of the LDS faith who have diligently prepared for the Second coming of Jesus Christ would be called to the mountains to set up what Chad referred to as white camps, meaning white tents that would house the righteous, a refuge that would provide supplies to righteous families when the tribulations began. While the LDS Church does not teach about any call out in official church meetings, I I've delved into where the belief originated and my research takes me to Avow's founder Roger K. Young. I've read Roger K. Young's book Dreams, Visions and Testimonies, Volume 1 where he cites Scripture and past LDS Church leaders to back up his claims of this alleged call out for the most righteous of preppers. But his sightings of old ideas, out of context teachings and leaders from the past make it clear to me that the call out begins with Yang, his books, and the teachings that become the origin of a vow. Here are two interviews, a once a vow member, Anna and Suzanne Freeman, a once friend of Chad Daybell's, discussing the call out. And again, both of these interviews are found in full on our YouTube channel, Hidden True Crime. Were you a member of a vow too Short.

Video Clip 1 [00:56:28] Short time I was on there.

Video Clip 1 [00:56:29] And it's just pettiness. One person posted, I can't wait for the call out.

Video Clip 1 [00:56:35] And I'm rolling my eyes.

Video Clip 1 [00:56:36] I'm like, are you serious?

Video Clip 1 [00:56:37] You really think the call. It's going to be that great? Living in a tent, hardly having any running water, people fighting over their food storage.

Video Clip 1 [00:56:46] I just.

Video Clip 1 [00:56:47] I just didn't. That is interesting. So someone said they couldn't wait. Almost as if they were prepared and felt special. Maybe that's.

Video Clip 1 [00:56:55] I think they.

Video Clip 1 [00:56:56] I think that's what it was. I think they felt they were more special because they were more prepared, that they.

Video Clip 1 [00:57:02] Their eyes were open.

Video Clip 1 [00:57:03] They're open to spirituality and they're open to being prepared. And so when they're. The call out happens, they're going to

Video Clip 1 [00:57:12] listen to the prophet.

Video Clip 1 [00:57:13] It's some private belief that they had, but they didn't share it with, you know, their bishop and their, you know, Relief Society president and people in their ward. That was something that was like, I can get online and I can talk to all my buddies on PTC or on avow, and I can share what I really believe and my dreams and my visions, but I'm not gonna, you know, I'm not gonna share this with people in my ward. Chad would sell his books through avow. Chad would promote Christopher in a vow and give a vow credibility. And so Christopher, you know, he's got 10,000 people who, who are on a vow, and he's making, you know, 40, 50 year. You know, this is quite lucrative for both of them. Right, right. And then. And then it's lucrative for Julie because, you know, she's promoted on a vow. She's promoted by Chad, and she promotes Chad and she promotes a vow. Chad has some of his own spiritual gifts.

Video Clip 1 [00:58:07] He is also visionary.

Video Clip 1 [00:58:10] I would.

Video Clip 1 [00:58:10] I don't say this in a bright

Video Clip 1 [00:58:12] bragging way, but my gifts are more extensive than his.

Video Clip 1 [00:58:14] Back to Chad's visions commonly shared On a vow. They included end of times doomsday scenarios eerily similar to the supposedly fictional characters in his earlier apocalyptic novels that were being read by Lori Valo.

Video Clip 1 [00:58:30] The celestial City, Volume 2 covers from when they leave the mountains to when they travel to Missouri to a establish New Jerusalem. And the third volume is the one that covers a greater period of time

Video Clip 1 [00:58:42] where New Jerusalem is built, the 10 tribes return, and the New Jerusalem temple is completed.

Video Clip 1 [00:58:50] The fourth volume, the Keys of the Kingdom, begins about three years before the Second Coming. And that's where you meet some other characters, some evil villains who. And the final volume, which just came out, covers those last four months before the Second Coming and actually stretches into the millennium. I think like you said before, you wrote it for your family, for people who are not going to pick up a nonfiction book of prophecy to build a story around a possible solution to those prophesies.

Video Clip 1 [00:59:24] It's just possible.

Video Clip 1 [00:59:25] It's fiction, but it certainly makes you think.

Video Clip 1 [00:59:28] And Chad soon also began to stop calling his fictional novels fiction. All of a sudden, they were true.

Video Clip 1 [00:59:38] Chad and Tammy had moved up to Idaho by this time, so they moved up there, I think in the summer of 2015, Julie Rowe came up to Rexburg. So what happened was Garth was saying, oh, my gosh. He said, I learned so much this weekend. He said, julie came and stayed with us and. And I learned that my dad, all his books that he wrote this whole time growing up, I thought they were all just stories, just fiction. And he said, this weekend I learned that they were all true, that everything in those books were from dreams and visions that he has had. And I never knew that.

John Dehlin [01:00:18] So that's the first time I had seen that clip. I'm really glad we showed it again. A shout out to Lauren Matthias and her husband John, and the amazing Hidden True Crime podcast. I took a bunch of notes. Let me just give you a chance to ask you both how that was, for you to see that clip.

Kim Coffin [01:00:40] How are you feeling?

Josh Coffin [01:00:41] It's very validating. Yeah, I think. Very validating to hear all that, right? I mean, the timeline was nice to see. And connecting all the dots, um, it went from fiction to nonfiction.

Kim Coffin [01:00:55] That's an interesting switch to make.

Josh Coffin [01:00:59] I think we had moved away at that time, right? 2015 is when we moved away. So when they moved up north to Idaho, both Julie, bro. And looks like Tammy and Chad. Chad, we moved away. So I'm almost glad that we moved away when we did, because that was all going on, you know, in Idaho. So I don't know. Do you have other thoughts on it.

Kim Coffin [01:01:23] It's interesting watching it back and looking at it from our now ex Mormon lens and just wondering, how are people really believing all these things? And a question that Josh and I have discussed multiple times is, does my father actually believe all of these things? And sometimes I have doubts that he was 100% a believer of all of these dreams and visions. And I question, was he just choosing to profit off of these people because he knew that their visions and their dreams, the stories that they are telling, truly, that they excite people, that they're engaging, it's enthralling. It leads to people feeling like they need a person to tell them what to do. And the church isn't doing a job of that, but my father can. So I question, is this something that he's creating? Like he creates the problem and he solves the problem. It's like a very egocentric problem that we have here.

Josh Coffin [01:02:31] There's a lot of profit models in there too, where they talked about how they promoted each other, right? Chad was promoted on Avow and Julie was promoted on Avow and Avow promoted them. And it was just, just this very incestuous relationship where they're all making money off of it and some are being published and they're leading this very large group of people, of subscribers, memberships down that, down that road. So it's just, to me, it's validating to hear that from a true crime podcaster too.

Kim Coffin [01:03:01] Lauren has really done an excellent job with going through all of this information and compiling it. I was just watching her podcast two

Josh Coffin [01:03:09] days ago, digging into the forum and pulling those screenshots of just stuff they've said in the past.

John Dehlin [01:03:15] Yeah, yeah. Shout out to, to her and John. Dr. John, a couple things struck me. You know, we don't. We try to go after people. I know we're talking about, you know, Tom specifically here, Tom Harrison. That's not really to go after Tom. It's really to hold the Mormon Church accountable for allowing Tom, for promoting Tom when it found out he had written this book, making him bishop and then allowing this book to be perpetuated to the point where Chad's wife's dead, Lori's kids are dead, Lori's ex husband or two are dead, Lori's brother's dead. You know, all the people that spent all these fortunes on prepper stuff, loss of life savings in many instances, families torn apart, not to mention Tim Ballard and our. And all that fraud and not to put all that on. And Jody Hildebrandt and The Ruby Frankie stuff. Not to put all that on Tom Harrison at all, but what do all of them have in common other than their Mormonism? It's their associations with Tom Harrison and their teachings and beliefs in things found in this book and then in the broader prepper community. So just like even though it would seem we're going after Tom Harrison, we're not. We're going after the system of Mormonism and the Mormon Church that enabled this. We're going after those decisions. We're also not going after your dad, and we haven't even mentioned his name up until this point. We've mentioned your maiden name, but we haven't mentioned his name. Now, the Hidden True Crime podcast did name him. That's fine. I mean, but what struck me, I took some notes, is that there's a question about culpability and there's a question about your dad's culpability. And I don't want to be too harsh or ham fisted here, but he co authors a book with Chad Daybell. He's. He's enabling Chad to share Chad's visions on a vow for money. So he's making money off of Chad's stories. He's making money off of Chad's visions. He's making money off of all this prepper craziness. He's promoting Julie Rowe, who was the author that was. That. That Chad Daybell was sponsoring and supporting. You know, he. He, along with this Roger guy, the founder, Roger Young. They're the ones originating this call out 144,000 and perpetuating it. White. I couldn't. I couldn't help but laugh at the irony of these things being called white camps. I know it's. I know it's named after the tents, but. But probably the people, too. I don't know. Probably aren't a lot of people of color at these white camps in Idaho of all places, but, you know, you know, encouraging this idea of sort of Mormon prepper exceptionalism, and then all the. All the events that people were monetizing. Yeah. And I guess it just sort of. There's two questions. How culpable is your dad in all this? And I don't even expect to have an answer. I'm certainly not trying to get you to condemn your dad, but those questions come up in my mind. How culpable is a vow. But even more importantly, I'll come back to it. How culpable is the Mormon Church for knowing about all this? The events were public. The podcasts were public, the YouTube channels were public. The books were sold in public. The Mormon. I don't love to swear, but the Mormon Church could have shut all this shit down. They didn't. They haven't.

Kim Coffin [01:07:15] And they were aware of it.

John Dehlin [01:07:16] And they were absolutely aware of it 100%, including Tom Harrison being allowed to have his book, continuing publishing and being promoted as bishop. Where's the prophet, seer and Revelator? Where's the gift of discernment in that? Like. So I guess that's just a long way of saying, do you have thoughts on Copal? You know, don't even answer that unless you. Because I'm not trying to get you to denounce your debt.

Kim Coffin [01:07:41] It's okay. It is definitely a topic that Josh and I have discussed privately trying to determine, is there guilt in being associated with these people? Is there guilt with.

John Dehlin [01:07:56] You wanted to change your name, right?

Kim Coffin [01:07:57] Yeah. With bringing Chad onto this platform and giving him access to all of these people and promoting him. I mean, I think that they're. There is a level of guilt there. It also falls on the Mormon Church. I mean, the Mormon Church is aware of these fringe groups, and I don't think that they have done enough to shut it down. Although I would also say if they did try to shut it down, I know that some of the people within these groups would still keep doing what they're doing because they have been taught to believe that mainstream Mormonism may, at some point, some of the people within mainstream Mormonism will turn on them.

Josh Coffin [01:08:38] Yeah, it's very victim mentality. Right. But if you look at the dominoes here, like one domino falls, and if you don't, you have to cut off the dominoes at some point, and the church never did that. And there should be an apology from the Neal A. Maxwell and down that we did this early on and we should have stopped it, and we didn't. And now look at what's happened since. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:57] If Neal A. Maxwell was a prophet here in Revelator, why didn't you go to Tom Harrison and say, that's dangerous, you're full of crap, don't publish that book. And if you do, if we catch any wind of you publishing it, you're going to excommunicated. Now, Maxwell did tell him to keep it to himself. And so in that sense, I guess we can cut Neal A. Maxwell a little bit of slack. But then the church found, finds out about it, finds out about it by 2012, 2013, and lets it slide. Knowing that the book claims that an apostle endorsed it.

Kim Coffin [01:09:29] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:09:29] Knowing that it claims to have Jesus and God's own approval. Right.

Josh Coffin [01:09:37] Yeah.

Kim Coffin [01:09:38] When we see similar themes echoed with our. And Tim Ballard. And why was that? Like the idea of if these men, these general authorities, the quorum of the

John Dehlin [01:09:50] 12, oh, M. Russell Ballard, if they

Kim Coffin [01:09:52] have the gift of discernment and they're being led by the prophet and they're so close to the prophet, why wouldn't they have known about Tim Ballard's true intentions or Chad's true intentions or any of these things?

John Dehlin [01:10:07] And by the way, Jodi Hildebrandt would tell people she regularly communicated with the top leaders at church headquarters. And I don't think she's lying. I think.

Kim Coffin [01:10:16] No, I'm not.

John Dehlin [01:10:17] Go ahead.

Kim Coffin [01:10:18] From what I understand, that was not a lie. She was very much endorsed by many people.

Josh Coffin [01:10:23] A lot of money sent her way, a lot of clients. Yeah. There's like a template that's almost like, if you go back to Joseph, too, it's like this complex of worshiping a man and how he. Like there's been some comparisons of Tim Ballard to Joseph and like, what he did to women and how he coerced them and the things he did to groom them. And, and then you do the same thing with the dominoes here with, with Chad Dabel and, and it's. There's just no culpability. They don't, they don't admit that they're wrong. There is no apologies. But there is not the excommunications on the right side that you see on the left. Why aren't we seeing some of these cult right leaders being told they're excommunicated for what they're doing? Happy to go after the left, happy to go after the progressives, but not the right.

John Dehlin [01:11:05] Yeah. As far as I know, Sam Young or Natasha Helfer or me or Jeremy Runnels, none of us have done things that have led to murders yet that I know of.

Guest [01:11:16] Great point.

John Dehlin [01:11:17] Like Sam Young was just trying to protect children from sexual abuse. Natasha was trying to promote healthy sexuality. I was trying to promote same sex, you know, marriage and, and honesty in church history. And Kate Kelly, you know, and ordained women was just all about helping women not suffer at the hands of the patriarchy. All excommunicated. And I'm sure I'm forgetting a lot of other important Runnels with the CES letter.

Josh Coffin [01:11:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:43] Just being honest about church history. Right, Right.

Kim Coffin [01:11:45] But I think the difference is you have these two outlying groups on our Mormon spectrum. One, your side is leading people out of Mormonism. Sometimes. Sometimes it keeps People in. But on the fundamentalist side, it's keeping people in. Like people might die, but they're staying in the church.

Josh Coffin [01:12:04] It's a great thing.

Kim Coffin [01:12:05] So maybe it's not as big of a problem if we have these insane beliefs.

John Dehlin [01:12:09] As long as they're paying tithing, as long as they're, you know, as long as they're staying in the church chairs, as long as they're accepting their callings.

Kim Coffin [01:12:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:12:16] You know, going to the temple, then the church is like, all right, what's most important, which is the numbers and the money and the devotion. We'll let, we'll let it all, let it all slide. Yeah, but that's dark, right?

Josh Coffin [01:12:31] I would think that that's true, that there's more ex Mormons from the left side of history, of progressive Mormonism than there is on the right because there's always room for them on the right. It's actually a bizarre thing that, that funnels from the left out.

John Dehlin [01:12:46] But it's also worth challenging that idea because as I understand it, when Russell M. Nelson came out in support of masks and in support of the vaccine, people on the right, Mormon rights, started losing their faith. And when Deborah Stouffer was asking me, communicated, people on the right lost their faith. And you know, anytime the church speaks out against racism, I think it risks losing people on the right. And then with this Tim Ballard thing, if Tim Ballard ends up splitting from the church, I think he's going to take a lot of people with him. So, I mean, I think they're, I think they might be short sighted with regards to their own best interests because as they let a vow and all this prepper stuff grow, I think they're just potentially nurturing a bigger schism and affection later. I don't know.

Josh Coffin [01:13:43] Yeah, I mean, how often does the church publicly denounce somebody? It's pretty rare. Right. I feel like that's when that happened to Tim Ballard, it was like, well,

John Dehlin [01:13:51] they did it to me and Sam.

Josh Coffin [01:13:52] Sure, it's a slight group and those two were great. But then it got worse pretty quick. But. So having that done publicly was quite a shock for a lot of people. And.

John Dehlin [01:14:02] But even then people didn't want to believe it. They felt like it was a rogue PR rep that didn't have the church's approval.

Josh Coffin [01:14:08] They questioned the news source and people were like, no. Even the governor had to get up. Governor Cox had to get up and say no. I've heard from all the local news stations, abc, cb, like NBC. He had to defend that.

John Dehlin [01:14:20] He this was real, that the statement was real. And even now it's still not confirmed that Tim Ballard was ever excommunicated. So why, why didn't the church issue a statement against Tim Ballard and say, yeah, we excommunicated the dude. They're intentionally leaving it ambiguous. Probably out of being terrified that the prepper fundy right wing Mormonism groups are, are they're gonna lose them.

Josh Coffin [01:14:50] Well, your dad's hero, Glenn Beck, he had to delete his tweets. Right. Because he tweeted in respect in support

John Dehlin [01:14:56] of Tim dollar Against the church.

Josh Coffin [01:14:59] Against the church. Yeah. I was like, whoa, Glenn Beck from the right, like out of right field. And then all of a sudden he deleted them, rescinded his comments. But that was too late. We all saw the screenshots and, and so that was. He backtracked very quickly. So he probably got a call from someone big at the church. Like it's, it's weird to see the right wing side scramble a bit. It's unusual.

John Dehlin [01:15:21] Yeah. The, the things are going to get crazy. I think I, I think there's going to be like, okay, Chad and Laurie. Oh, but then Jody Hildebrandt and oh, and now, you know, and now Tim Ballard. Like there's going to be more of this. Yeah. I mean if the church doesn't shut this down, it's going to have even more blood on its hands, I think. Right. I also think this isn't going to stop.

Kim Coffin [01:15:50] I agree.

Josh Coffin [01:15:50] They try to be quiet too because they might be trying to protect involvement from like how much investment happened. I think it was you that shared about this or someone, one of the creators around how much financial involvement through the Apostles went down from Ballard to Ballard. Right. And so maybe.

John Dehlin [01:16:07] And Ezra Books and. Yeah. Printing the books, selling the books. 220 articles about Tim Ballard and Deseret News.

Josh Coffin [01:16:15] So if you go quiet and you go leave it to make it ambiguous, you don't have to admit culpability. That might go to the very top. Right. And some of these very older Corma. The 15. Right. Or Cor. The 12 that are maybe culpable in some of this. And so they want to avoid that at all costs because that would be a mass exit of people.

John Dehlin [01:16:35] Yeah, yeah. I remember Lauren feeling so frustrated that Uchtdorf at some point goes to Rexburg. You guys are nodding. What happened?

Josh Coffin [01:16:43] Oh no, go ahead.

Kim Coffin [01:16:45] We just lived in Rexburg.

John Dehlin [01:16:46] Oh, Rexburg was where a lot of these. Were they preparing at people conferences. What were they called?

Kim Coffin [01:16:51] I'm not positive.

John Dehlin [01:16:53] They just call Them prepper conferences, like in, I think the downtown rexburg, like tabernacle. 5,000 people, I hear, like all preppers. These. This is downtown Rexburg kind of stuff. You know, Uchtdorf, eventually, after the Chad Lori Dabel stuff happens. Uchtdorf goes to Rexburg and gives a talk, but he doesn't mention Chad or Laurie, and he doesn't condemn prepperism. So, I mean, they just. They won't. They won't address it. They won't address it.

Josh Coffin [01:17:24] They don't want to be associated with it. They try to keep it distanced, which I'm sure as a priority strategy.

Kim Coffin [01:17:28] Yeah. And because it's never condemned, it furthers the prepper's belief that they are doing what's right.

John Dehlin [01:17:34] Yeah.

Kim Coffin [01:17:35] And that they are the select few

Josh Coffin [01:17:37] living a higher law than the rest of us.

John Dehlin [01:17:39] Let me ask you really quickly. You get two things. You get two sides about polygamy. You get like, Denver Snuffer and some of the others, maybe the Joe Smith Foundation, Hannah Stoddard types. By the way, we haven't mentioned the Joseph Smith Foundation, Hannah Stoddard people. But you get a group of people who are saying Joseph Smith never practiced polygamy at all. There was no peep stone in the hat. You know, they're kind of denying the factual history. But I think you also get prepper strains of people that believe in polygamy and even practice it. Is there anything y' all want to say about that?

Kim Coffin [01:18:16] I believe there are people on the forum that do practice polygamy. It is not solely Mormons. I believe there are some fundamentalists that get on there because prepping applies to everyone. My father definitely believes in polygamy and had some questionable.

Josh Coffin [01:18:37] Yeah, he always had sort of associates, single women over 40 that would kind of be around. Always made comments about wanting polygamy to come back. And we always kind of questioned, like, why would you. Like, you're part of mainstream Mormonism. Why would you say things like that? And so we always wondered about why he was this revered man among a forum of a lot of those kind of susceptible people.

Kim Coffin [01:19:01] Yeah. And I think you saw similar things with Chad where he was revered with women and then used that as his way to get another wife to up upgrade. My dad always made jokes about how he might upgrade to a newer model at some point. And there was even this woman. She was very sweet, but she would come visit us, and she was single, and she would come and stay for a few weeks from far away in your house. Mm.

Josh Coffin [01:19:27] Yeah.

Kim Coffin [01:19:27] And there were a lot of jokes made about how once polygamy came back, that he would be happy to add her to the family. And it never sat right with us. It always made us uncomfortable. I mean, she was a very kind person, but the whole idea of it didn't sit right with us. It.

Josh Coffin [01:19:45] Luckily we had some separation being at byu, Idaho, from that, but we did go visit and see that and go. That's really, really odd.

Kim Coffin [01:19:52] Yeah.

Josh Coffin [01:19:53] Yeah. The couple's ruse was part of that for Tim Ballard, but we don't. We don't know much more than that. But there definitely was someone around.

John Dehlin [01:20:04] Yeah, well, yeah, that's. I mean, this is just getting out of hand. So, Mormon Church, we're your friends here. We just want you to be healthier and do less harm. This book, you allowing Tom Harrison to remain a member in good standing and this book to be sold without you both shutting that down and condemning it. I worry that, number one, you have blood on your hands. You will have more blood on your hands, and I think it'll come back to bite you. I think it will come back to bite you. So fix this. Fix the prepper stuff, fix the visions of glory stuff. Fix the Tom Harrison stuff. I say, as your friend, as someone who wants Mormons to be healthy and wants to see the church do less harm and do more good, that's my public service announcement. I give it to you for free. Y' all want to add anything? I'm sure they listen and do whatever I say. Right.

Kim Coffin [01:21:04] If only.

John Dehlin [01:21:06] Anything else you want to say about that, or.

Josh Coffin [01:21:08] No, I do think. I mean, we. We wish the best, too. We're not. We're not sort of angry at, you know, or bitter. It's more about make some changes because there will always be Mormons. So make some changes on the fringe. The fringe. Beliefs on the edge.

Kim Coffin [01:21:21] And, you know, yeah, we want people to be safe within those communities. And I think some of these books can be very unsafe. They can lead to beliefs, especially in a population that maybe is struggling with their mental health, which I think preparedness tends to attract. Those people are not always aware of mental health. But I know for myself, having OCD and scrupulosity, that people like us can be easily preyed upon or can easily fall victim to this ideology. So my heart hurts for them. I wish that the Mormon Church would do more to step up and make it clear that this isn't in alignment with what they teach. But it's hard to know what will happen.

Impact on Family Relationships and Stepping Away

John Dehlin [01:22:09] So how did all this affect your relationship with Your dad and your mom. Maybe we should just maybe conclude the episode with that.

Kim Coffin [01:22:17] So I mentioned earlier that as we found out what had happened with Chad and Lori, and then my dad was in the news, I started doing a lot of research online. I started, like, going on Reddit and just even on Google, trying to find out what. What is really going on. Like, why is my father supporting this person? I don't understand. And I think my eyes started to be opened a little more to maybe some of his faults or character weaknesses that I had not been aware of previously. And this was even before we had started deconstructing or my faith had changed. It was more just like, oh, I'm starting to see that these belief systems that he holds are separate from the Mormon Church. And maybe I. I don't agree with these things. This seems like it could be deadly. I mean, it is deadly. So I started to put a little bit of distance between myself and my father. Specifically, a few months later, there was a family disagreeance between my father, brother, mother, and sister that kind of. I was really not a part of it. I was living in a different state. They tried to pull me into it. And at one point, I ended up just writing him an email, just kind of saying, I have some issues with the way that you have treated your family over the years. And this was very out of character for me. I have always been, like, the perfect child. Like, I say yes to everything I people, please. I will make everyone happy. I will cook and bake until everyone's fed. And, like, my role has always been the peacemaker, take care of everyone. So for me to stand up to my father was so, so very out of character for me. And yet I felt like he had hurt my mother, sister, and brother so much that I was like, I think it's time for maybe me to stand up and say, you really are hurting the people in your life. Can you please stop doing this? And so I send an email stating some of my grievances. I, you know, here are some of the things I am struggling with that you have done that have been hurtful, that was not well received by my family. Going against my father is not something that my family supports. And he did not respond to that. Should I say any of the points that were addressed in that?

John Dehlin [01:24:54] I don't know.

Josh Coffin [01:24:55] I think you've covered a lot of it. I also think that your brother had actual concerns too, right? He went to your dad with concerns. You lived in another state. And he not only didn't validate your brother but he laughed at him and he laughed at your sister. And there was no emotion. There's no validation. And you got involved because you're trying to be helpful. And now they still all stick by him. And it's so confusing because you were just trying to help with what they started with him because you're not the type to confront. And their response was all silence. It really wasn't a validation or even a.

Kim Coffin [01:25:32] My mother responded. It was very gaslighty. And at that point, I started to realize, you know what? Maybe it is time to put a little bit of distance between me and my family of origin and do some therapy and start working on ourselves. And let's just have a little bit of distance, because this whole Chad and Laurie thing really kind of rocked my world to see my father, who very much claims to have the gift of discernment, among other gifts, be duped by someone that was so close to him, that was a business partner in my mind, you know, someone that he had published a book with. And so I decided to take a step back. And taking that step back really was what opened up the doors for us to have the space to start looking into the church. I think it's all.

Josh Coffin [01:26:22] Before we ever deconstructed it all.

Kim Coffin [01:26:24] Yeah.

Josh Coffin [01:26:25] Which is kind of crazy to think about.

John Dehlin [01:26:28] Wow. Okay. Yeah. So you've been effectively estranged from your parents for four years now, is that right?

Kim Coffin [01:26:34] I think that's about right.

Josh Coffin [01:26:36] Three and a half.

Kim Coffin [01:26:37] Was it November that I.

Josh Coffin [01:26:40] Three and a half to four.

Kim Coffin [01:26:41] I think it's been a long time. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:26:44] And we'll get to that. I think in the final episode where we talk about the deconstruction, healing and growth. We'll get Margi back for that one. But, you know, I can't imagine. My parents aren't perfect. I'm not perfect. My parents aren't perfect, but I'm still in contact with them. I guess things would have to be really bad for someone to be happy about or healthy from complete separation from their parents. How is it for you?

Kim Coffin [01:27:19] You're spot on. Things would have to be very bad for you to feel better about not being in communication with your family.

John Dehlin [01:27:27] And is that the case for you?

Kim Coffin [01:27:29] Yeah,

John Dehlin [01:27:32] I just. Like, I'm happy for your health, but that makes me sad.

Kim Coffin [01:27:37] I mean, and it was heartbreaking, and it still does hurt. It doesn't hurt the way that it used to. We've done a lot of therapy working on that. And I couldn't put my children through what I went through. I couldn't subject them to the abuse and the belief system that my father has, I. I just. I refuse to do that. And anyone that is near my father, you have to have complete adherence to everything that he believes. It's very much my way or the highway. So that's hard. He doesn't deal with people that oppose him. It's. You believe him or you don't.

Josh Coffin [01:28:22] Yeah. And as a father of daughters, I just. I'm not. I'm not doing it like, I'm not. I also have boundaries, too. Right. I mean, I respect her boundaries with her own family, but there's just certain boundaries we have to put in place for the safety of our own family and. Yeah,

John Dehlin [01:28:42] well, we hope this mess gets cleaned up. It's not your job or even our job to clean it up, but we're doing our best to bring light and visibility to it. Your coming on the podcast means a lot, especially as the daughter of one of the leaders of this movement and someone who. Who's personal friends with one of the alleged murders. So for both of you and because of your own family sensitivities, I just want to thank both of you, Kim and Josh, so much for your willingness to speak publicly about something so important, but also so hard.

Kim Coffin [01:29:28] Thank you for having us on. We really appreciate it.

John Dehlin [01:29:31] Yeah. All right, well, that concludes part two. But don't go away. Their favorite part, Kim and Josh's favorite part, and Margi's favorite part is still to come, which is kind of the healing and growth after all this hard stuff happens. So that's going to be part three. Tell us really quickly about your YouTube channel.

Josh Coffin [01:29:57] So it's sweet red, poppy. It's a crafting and sewing DIY channel on YouTube. We're on Pinterest, Instagram, Facebook, TikTok. We have online courses, ebooks, free files for crafting, PDF patterns for sewing. It's all content around education to learn how to use a cricut machine, a sewing machine, serger machine, quilting, any sort of craft tech.

John Dehlin [01:30:22] What in the fetch is a cricut machine?

Kim Coffin [01:30:24] It is a electronic smart cutting machine for vinyl. Think vinyl. Like if you had a vinyl decal on your car, it would cut something like that.

Josh Coffin [01:30:33] It cuts all kinds of material.

John Dehlin [01:30:34] So paper, it's like a jigsaw.

Kim Coffin [01:30:36] It's a little blade and it's managed by a software, so it cuts perfectly.

John Dehlin [01:30:41] Okay.

Kim Coffin [01:30:41] So you don't have user error. Basically. Looks beautiful.

John Dehlin [01:30:44] Or fingers.

Kim Coffin [01:30:45] Or fingers cut. Yeah.

Josh Coffin [01:30:47] Actually based here, South Jordan is where they're based as a headquarters. But if you walk in like a Michaels or a Joanne. You'll see those Cricut machines or these big shiny things that cut it's crafting tech as they refer to it.

John Dehlin [01:30:58] None of this is endorsed or sponsored by any of these people.

Josh Coffin [01:31:02] Of course not.

John Dehlin [01:31:03] And yeah. So support their channel. Subscribe. Subscribe to Mormon Stories Podcast. I want to give a personal thanks to all the donors, monthly donors that make Mormon Stories Podcasts possible. Thank you. We also lose 5 to 10 to 15 recurring donors every month just because people move on or lose interest or fall on financial hard times. So if you value today's content, if you want to see more of it continue in the future, please go to MormonStories.org, click on the donate button. Become a monthly donor and help us remain sustainable. We appreciate it. All right, don't go away. Come right back for part three of our interview with Kim Perrette and Josh and Kim Coffin, and we're going to be talking about their healing and growth after neo fundamentalist Mormonism. Thanks, guys.

Josh Coffin [01:31:59] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:31:59] Thank you, everyone. See you for part three in just a second. Take care.

Faith Deconstruction Begins

Part 3 of 3 · Ep. 1830

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is October 16, 2023, and we are here in part three of our interview with Josh and Kim Coffin. Hey, y', all, how's it going? Thanks for joining us. Back again, we have been covering this week sort of the fallout from the Ruby, Frankie eight passengers, Jody Hildebrandt, Tim Ballard, our Chad Dabell, Lori Vallow, just sort of disaster that's been befalling Mormonism over the past year. I call it Mormon neo fundamentalism. Others call it Mormon prepperism. And we've been covering all the connections to this book, Visions of Glory, written by a man named Tom Harrison Harrison, who is a therapist here in Utah along the Wasatch front. And we're not going to be. We've covered in parts one and two, Kim and Josh's Mormon stories. Kim being raised by kind of prepper Mormon parents. Josh being raised by more traditional Idaho believing, faithful Mormon parents and their marriage. And then eventually their experiences with Kim's dad, who still is a leader of an online Mormon Internet prepper group called Avow and its relationship. And Kim's dad's relationship with Chad Dabel and the prepper movement and his responsibility in helping make Chad Dabel and Julie Rowe and eventually Lori Valo what they became. And we are now on part three. And part three is Margi's favorite part,

Kim Coffin [00:01:58] right, Margi, I'm here for it.

John Dehlin [00:02:01] And also the part that Josh and Kim are most excited about, which is the healing and growth that comes after deconstruction for Mormonism or, or from a high demand religion. So where we left off in part two was them starting to question their faith as they found out that the friend that Kim's dad had defended, Chad Dabel, is likely, according to allegations, the murder or complicit in the murder of his own wife and possibly complicit or at least aware of the murder, the murders of Lori Vallow's two children and her ex, least one ex husband and her brother. Bunch of murder and mayhem. And this causing Kim after her dad defends Chad Vallow and then has to correct his error, her starting to question not just the patriarchal order that she was raised in with her dad at the helm, but but also Mormon preparism, Mormon neo fundamentalism, and eventually possibly orthodox Mormonism. So first of all, Margi, welcome back.

Margi Dehlin [00:03:18] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:03:18] And are you excited?

Margi Dehlin [00:03:20] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:03:20] Yeah. It's good to have you.

Margi Dehlin [00:03:21] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:03:22] And Kim and Josh, where do y' all want to begin part three.

Kim Coffin [00:03:27] Do you want to lead?

Josh Coffin [00:03:28] Sure.

Josh Coffin [00:03:28] I can dive in. I think at the time, Kim and I were always kind of different, different believers. I was a utility member where I truly was there for the community. I love the community. I love the extended family, the reunions, the BYU network for career paths, BYU Idaho as well. Kim was a validity member, true believing. Very, very much dedicated to all, all of the doctrine. And we didn't really ever get into it too much because I just didn't really want to. I guess I was perfectly fine being a community utility member. And I think you started to question after, obviously that went down with your dad and Chad Daybell, but you started to question some of the core aspects of the church. I think you had heard about these essays and you wanted to disprove them. Like, oh, the essays can't possibly.

Kim Coffin [00:04:28] I'm going to go research these.

Kim Coffin [00:04:29] And yeah, so what was happen. What was happening was you had a friend from college who reached out and you had kept in fairly good contact with him throughout the years. And I had always respected his opinions on things. He was very well researched, very well read and thought out. And he was sharing some of his concerns about some of the church doctrine with you. And I had overheard, I think it was. What was that message?

Josh Coffin [00:04:59] Marco Polo.

Kim Coffin [00:05:00] Marco Polo. I had heard you both chatting back and forth and I thought, oh, he's struggling with the Mormon doctrine after reading the gospel essays. I mean, that's on the LDS website. How could you struggle with Mormon doctrine if you're not reading anti Mormon literature? And I was like, well, give this to me. I will go research this. I love a good deep dive. That's the autism and the adhd. And I was like, just let me have this. I'll go figure it out. We'll let him know, like he's safe. We'll figure it out. So I go and I start reading the gospel essays that are on lds.org

John Dehlin [00:05:40] and we'll have Julia include a link to the Gospel topics essays.

Kim Coffin [00:05:43] Yes, thank you.

John Dehlin [00:05:44] That were released in late 2013, sometime 2014.

Kim Coffin [00:05:48] And I had read them previously, probably about two or three years previously, and at that time in my life didn't have too much issue with them. But I think a lot of things had shifted over the past few years that I wasn't maybe fully aware with. So I jump in and I start reading them and I jump in with the thought that everything that I have been taught my entire life is that anything that is on the church's website is safe, will bring you further light, it can't take you away from the church. I'm not going to go on any of the anti Mormon websites obviously. So I start reading through them and I make sure to read all of the footnotes because that's the type of studier I always was like, even with the Book of Mormon and with the Bible, I was always like, I want to read the footnotes because I want to extra understand what's going on. And probably again themes of scrupulosity. I need to have that like better understanding so that I can better prepare myself for what's coming. So I start diving in and I'm reading the footnotes. And the footnotes do take you to a few different sources outside, but they're approved sources, things that they are referencing. And so I read those as well. And this is probably over the course of, I would say two or three days. I mean that's quite a lot to sift through if you're really reading everything. And I mean within the course of two to three days, everything that I believe in is falling apart. And I'm learning about things that I wasn't aware of.

John Dehlin [00:07:26] What are just some examples.

Kim Coffin [00:07:29] So for instance, what are all the things in there?

Josh Coffin [00:07:31] First Vision accounts.

Kim Coffin [00:07:32] The first Vision account where there are multiple different versions that Joseph has shared.

John Dehlin [00:07:39] That one was conflict.

Kim Coffin [00:07:40] Yeah.

Kim Coffin [00:07:41] Conflicting versions. And for me I was just astonished by the fact that the person who had founded our church. How could you have multiple versions of something that happened? I don't understand that. That's.

John Dehlin [00:07:55] Why is your story changing so much so many times?

Kim Coffin [00:07:59] Yes. That should be the same story told exactly the same every time. Maybe you embellish on it a little. Okay. But not changing who appears to you or how they are appearing or what they say or what they say. I took some pretty big issues with that. So that one was very unsettling. You keep reading and you start reading about blacks in the priesthood. How were people treated previously?

John Dehlin [00:08:25] Race in the. Race in the priesthood.

Kim Coffin [00:08:26] Sorry, race in the priesthood. Yes. How were members treated before? And that one was very unsettling. This was also during. I would say it was during like a lot of the Black Lives Matter stuff was going on. And so maybe I was more aware of that and more aware than I had been in the past.

Josh Coffin [00:08:46] And as an influencer too, you felt the need to stand up for marginalized community. Right.

Margi Dehlin [00:08:51] That was.

Kim Coffin [00:08:51] I spent a lot more time researching and trying to understand how are other people feeling because my experience as a white person living in Idaho is not

Kim Coffin [00:09:04] limited.

Josh Coffin [00:09:04] Yeah, yeah.

Kim Coffin [00:09:05] It's very limited.

Josh Coffin [00:09:06] And then I think, too, also there was the Book of Abraham.

Kim Coffin [00:09:09] The Book of Abraham.

Kim Coffin [00:09:10] It was kind of a joke.

Kim Coffin [00:09:12] I was very much a literal believer, too, of everything within Mormonism and the Bible and the Book of Mormon. So I took some issues there.

Josh Coffin [00:09:22] Polygamy was hard for you, too, because women are also a marginalized community and you felt the need to stand up for women.

Kim Coffin [00:09:28] Polygamy was a big one. Which ones am I missing?

Josh Coffin [00:09:31] It's quite a few of them.

John Dehlin [00:09:34] There's the translation stuff. There's Book of Mormon DNA and that kind of thing. Book of Mormon historicity, basically.

Josh Coffin [00:09:40] Yeah.

Kim Coffin [00:09:40] Right.

Kim Coffin [00:09:41] It just all starts adding up and it's like this snowball effect. And I remember just breaking down in tears, like, how is everything that I've believed in? This is my life's purpose. This is everything I've worked towards. How was I lied to about some of these things? How were these things kept from us in primary? How were we not taught some of these basic things? How did I not know that Joseph had a hat and a stone? And it's now taught.

Josh Coffin [00:10:14] But it wasn't.

John Dehlin [00:10:15] The plates weren't in the room.

Kim Coffin [00:10:16] And the plates weren't in the room.

Kim Coffin [00:10:17] The trees and the plates.

Kim Coffin [00:10:18] There were just so many things that were adding up and it was so upsetting. And I think Dark Night of the Soul is like, really the only way you can explain. It's the most painful thing. It's not like I was out there searching for a way to get out of Mormonism or looking to sin or looking to sin. I didn't want to go commit sins. That wasn't in the plan for me at all. It was, I'm trying to better understand Mormonism so that I can defend Mormonism to other people and keep friends inside of the church. We don't want them to leave. And so it came to me as a huge shock that I could begin to have this deconstruction process all within approved materials.

Josh Coffin [00:11:04] And then you brought it to me.

Kim Coffin [00:11:05] I brought it to you for some reason. I think one of the things that we've noticed about me is that I always think, like, a man knows more than me. And I think within Mormonism, sometimes you are taught, like, defer to a man. If you don't know, then a man will be able to lead and guide. He has more spiritual insight. He has guidance for the family. And so I came to you thinking you must know about all of these things. And I was upset. I was really hurting.

Josh Coffin [00:11:30] Yeah, you're like, you're the returned missionary. Like, why don't you know all these things? And I knew some of them, but I had chosen to look the other way. The community utility member in me wanted to just keep things how they were. And so she finally came to me. And you were angry. You were like, we need to talk about this.

Kim Coffin [00:11:49] I was very distraught.

Josh Coffin [00:11:51] Why didn't you tell me? Like, we should have known this. And then to me, I was like, whoa, whoa, slow down. What does this mean? What does this mean for our families, our extended families, our cousins? The family reunion in two weeks? Are we telling the world? Because to me, this is very definitive. Like, if we're not in, that changes all of our relationships. And to me, that's all I cared about, was the community. And to have a network locally, geographically, within my ward, to have the BYU alumni network at my disposal. I have 20,000 connections on LinkedIn. I care a lot about the BYU network for networking and careers. To me, it put all the communities on the line for me, like, are we going to give all this up? Because we were misled? And that was really hard for both of us, but in very different ways. Hers was about the validity of the. The truth, and mine was about, what does this mean for our future and our community and our family.

Kim Coffin [00:12:46] And so I remember I even started looking into, like, other forms of Mormonism, like, ones that had veered off. Like, well, maybe someone else got it right. Like, maybe Joseph wasn't perfect, but maybe, like, someone else got it right. So I looked into different. Like, I looked into the flds. I looked into. You'll have to remind me, what are the other names?

John Dehlin [00:13:07] Community of Christ.

Kim Coffin [00:13:07] Community of Christ. I was like, maybe someone else has it right. Looked into it. Nope, that doesn't seem right either. And I was like, you know, there has to be a way. How can I hold onto my faith? I don't want to lose this. It means too much to me. This is everything. And so I tried every way that I could to make sense of it. You know, reading apologist materials, and there was no way to make sense.

Josh Coffin [00:13:33] And then to see it summarized after the essays in the CES letter and also in Letter to my Wife was one that I came across. And that one was such an intimate reading because it was like, I don't want to lose my relationship with my spouse because of these things. I found out that was the writer's kind of intent. And for me, it was all crumbling. Like, our eternal marriage and all this family and community. Like, what does this all mean? If we do leave this church together and. But you can't deny, once you get into the rabbit hole, it's so hard. You can't just, I mean, I had, in a way, sort of, I hadn't done a deep dive though. I had said I don't really want to look into polygamy. Like it's kind of this area of that we're embarrassed about as a church and the blacks in the priesthood, the race in the priesthood. I didn't want to know too much

Kim Coffin [00:14:18] about it because it's like those are

Josh Coffin [00:14:19] the subjects you avoid on your mission. You just don't want to get too into that. And so having to look at it and look through the essays with their jump into the CES letter, it didn't take long to get into the letter and say, this is, it's all summarized, it's all here. How do I deny this? Like it forced me to have to face it all, which then led us to what does this mean now for our future? And that was what was I was trying to avoid. So just keep the status quo. We're in good standing with both of our families. We go to all the cousin weddings at all the temples. We're that picture perfect family. I'm the oldest cousin. I kind of wanted to keep it that way.

Kim Coffin [00:14:56] And so you even asked, well, can you leave the church, but can we still do all of the family activities and can we still just make it work? How do we make both of these things happen? And I was a bit obstinate. I said, no, I can't go to church with you. I cannot let our daughter get baptized. I cannot support these things if this isn't true. Like there is no room for error based on everything that we've been told. Like if Joseph Smith lied to us and like the very foundation, I guess, of the church is untrue. How does any of this matter? How does it have meaning? And I can't support that.

Josh Coffin [00:15:44] And I was worried about the milestones though. And I think you were shocked how worried I was about your mom and my mom and grandma and grandma and all the grandmas that our 7 year old at the time our oldest was a year away from baptism. And I was just deathly afraid of having to confront my mother in law and my mother and everyone else about how we're maybe not going to baptize her.

Kim Coffin [00:16:08] Right.

Josh Coffin [00:16:08] And that was kind of even after I knew it was all untrue, even after I'd done the deep dive, I still thought maybe I could still baptize my daughter, just to go along, to get along with my family, to avoid the confrontation of we are going to step out and be the only ones. But eventually, Kim helped me realize, like, no, like, that's not. Also therapy helped too, to kind of, like, own your own voice. It's okay to say no to this for your family.

Kim Coffin [00:16:34] It's your children.

Josh Coffin [00:16:36] Even though they're grandkids too, it's your children. You choose their future.

Kim Coffin [00:16:40] Yeah, but it's so painful leaving the Mormon religion because you lose your identity as a person, but you also lose family, in a sense. And all of the things that you've done around every holiday, you know, all of these. What are those called?

Josh Coffin [00:16:58] Why can't. I think traditions.

Kim Coffin [00:17:00] Traditions, yeah. You lose all of these family values and traditions. And traditions are such a core part of people. And to have that ripped away from you, like, suddenly Christmas doesn't have the same meaning. Suddenly Easter doesn't have the same meaning to me, at least. And now I'm questioning also my belief in God. And this is really painful. And within Mormonism, if you leave the Mormon faith, it's like you leave everything behind and you're ostracized. Whereas with other religions, you can leave the faith and you're still part of the community or you can still participate. You aren't ostracized or you aren't excommunicated if you do something out of line. And so it's really painful because.

Josh Coffin [00:17:47] Oh, yeah, the space for non believers. You talk to Jews or Muslims or Hindu or they have space for non believers within their. You know, some of them do. Right.

Kim Coffin [00:17:57] They hold the space for it.

Josh Coffin [00:17:58] It's like, I'm still a Jew. I'm still. We're still Mormons.

Kim Coffin [00:18:01] Like, we're still.

Josh Coffin [00:18:02] Even though we're ex Mormons, like, it's our heritage.

Kim Coffin [00:18:05] It's a fundamental part of how we work.

Josh Coffin [00:18:07] It's the people I understand, it's the people I resonate with, but it's an all or nothing thing. And so you're ostracized immediately. You lose your community.

Kim Coffin [00:18:14] You lose your access to the neighborhood

Josh Coffin [00:18:18] directory, and you just lose so much community right away. And there's no way to really get that back because you're sort of taboo. And so that was just hard for us to kind of face all of the loss of community that it's not true for you. It was really the dark night of the soul.

Kim Coffin [00:18:34] It was just like, it wasn't something we wanted or sought out, really wasn't. I was happy in The Mormon Church. I loved the religion. I loved the security that it brought me. I loved my relationship with what I felt like my relationship was with Jesus and God. And it was very painful to lose all of that and so quickly, too. To have it deteriorate so quickly was really painful.

Kim Coffin [00:19:00] It was hard.

Margi Dehlin [00:19:01] Where were you living when all of this was happening?

Kim Coffin [00:19:04] Utah county at the time we were in Utah County.

Margi Dehlin [00:19:06] Wow.

Josh Coffin [00:19:06] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:19:07] So very intense.

Josh Coffin [00:19:08] Yeah. Very intense environment. I think another piece, too, that we didn't really think about much, but Kim was also working and started up a business. And I think. I mean, it was 2019, and for a woman to work didn't seem like

Kim Coffin [00:19:22] it was a big deal.

Josh Coffin [00:19:24] But we were constantly told, like, are you? Are you? We had a relief Society president ask us, are you comfortable with other people raising your children? Because we had a nanny that worked

Kim Coffin [00:19:33] in our home part time, 15 hours a week.

Josh Coffin [00:19:36] So she questioned Kim about whether or not she's okay with someone else raising our kids. And why do you need to work? Does your husband not make enough? And I was like, I remember hearing this, like, is this the 1950s? Like, she's allowed to work?

Kim Coffin [00:19:48] Like, what is this?

Josh Coffin [00:19:50] Right? I was very, very angry about that. I was like, it wasn't even about the money. It was. She would like to have some fulfillment outside of motherhood. It's not an end all, be all. And so we. We very quickly became sort of feminists in a way that, like, women can do what they want to do, and it's not. Men cannot control women's choice. I would never tell you not to work. So I was just. That was hard for us. And Utah county was one of the worst. I mean, I think that whole neighborhood had stay at home moms. And nothing against the stay at home mom. Like, do what's best for your family.

Josh Coffin [00:20:18] Definitely.

Josh Coffin [00:20:19] Everyone has a different circumstance. But do not shame another woman for wanting to work and build their own business. That was definitely a pillar that fell quickly.

Kim Coffin [00:20:27] Well, it was interesting how quickly people's view of my changed too, because when I was in the church and it was successful, it was like, look at this gift that God has given or rewarded you with for your faithfulness. And now suddenly, as we're leaving and it's getting even more successful, it's. Oh, you. This is from the devil. Like, you've. You're worshiping Satan and so he's giving you money.

Kim Coffin [00:20:51] What was your dad's phrase about that? You sold. You soldier, soldier.

Kim Coffin [00:20:56] You sell yourself to the devil.

Josh Coffin [00:20:58] Well, you sold your soul and your. You gave your signs and tokens for fame and money, something along those lines. And Kim was like, I'm just trying to be a small business owner. I just want you to be proud of me. I just want to be validated by my parents that I'm providing, I'm doing a good job, I'm a good mother, and I'm a good CEO. And, of course, none of that came. It was all because we left the

Kim Coffin [00:21:21] church, that her success was sort of

Josh Coffin [00:21:23] undermined, which was so hard because she had worked so hard, and it was blessings before, and then it became sort of just disobedience.

Kim Coffin [00:21:33] That was really hard to watch.

Kim Coffin [00:21:35] Yeah. So, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:39] Yeah. That's tough stuff. Thank you for sharing. And it's just people don't come to understand how difficult it is and what it is unless people are willing to talk about it. So thank you for being willing to talk about it. Oftentimes, people talk about the faith crisis part as being harder than coming out as lgbt or even having a loved one die like this can be a very, very difficult, destabilizing, and even brutal thing to experience.

Grief, Identity Loss, and Mental Health After Leaving

Josh Coffin [00:22:14] Yeah, absolutely. And I think from the deconstruction, while it was so hard, I think the reconstruction or the rebuilding of our life after was where we find the most joy. Because it feels hopeless when you're going through it all. It feels like you're losing everything. But, you know, you still have to push forward and raise a family, and you have a marriage in place, and there are so many things you have to rethink. You basically start to question all of the systems, all of the institutions, all of the hierarchies, the male authority figures, the male power, patriarchy, the patriarchy alone. And I'd always been a pretty equal partner. But there were several bias things that I had still had that I was not fully equal. And, well, even things.

Kim Coffin [00:22:58] A lot of times it was ideas that I was furthering that I would say, no, please don't do that. That's my role. I don't want you to come into my womanly domain. And a lot of times you were trying to be helpful, and I didn't fully believe that that was something you should be doing.

Josh Coffin [00:23:15] So I remember just changing diapers for children or staying up late with babies. We had a very as equal as possible. With young, young children, we tried to be as equal as possible. And she was so shocked. Like, this is not what a man does. He doesn't change diapers. He doesn't care about laundry. He doesn't do things Domestically.

Kim Coffin [00:23:33] Well, I had grown up with really strict gender roles. Where my father, it was sometimes felt like living in the 1950s. Like, my father went to work and when he came home, dinner needed to be made for him and everyone needed to be quiet and there was no loud noises because dad had worked a hard day and my mother was there to provide for the children and to make the food. And there were very strict gender roles. And so as we created our own family, you know, I just wanted to mimic what I had seen, because that's what I thought was right and were definitely some things that needed to be questioned and changed. So that was really good.

Kim Coffin [00:24:10] Yeah.

Josh Coffin [00:24:10] As we started to rebuild, there isn't a role there. And I luckily stumbled into some coaching right away. So I hired Julie Hanks, who was, to me, a great bridge builder in this space. I think sometimes ex Mormon creators can be. And there's all kinds of them. Right. And I think some of the bridge builders, like Julie Hanks, who's still a Mormon, she is that bridge to start to question things like misogyny and different patriarchy things. And that was a great bridge for me to cross first before I started to look at other things after that, and without Julie Hanks and the coaching there and even Dr. Finlayson Fife and some of these other folks doing great work in the middle there. That allowed me to kind of see this emotional load. Julie Hanks talks a lot about emotional load and how women stereotypically take more of that on and how I can step up as a man and do more around the house, more with my children and have more of an equal partnership. And that was a great rebuilding for us to say we can do that together and rebuild our family together.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:19] Can I ask you a really quick question back to deconstruction for a minute? Oftentimes, John has identified some pillars, some quick pillars that kind of the church pills, let's just say holes. Maybe you say that oftentimes we don't even recognize until we go through, like a deconstruction. And I thought I would just because this will help guide also rebuilding, knowing what some of the holes were. But if you can just let me know if you feel like individually you felt like there was loss here. And then can we touch on grief and loss for a minute? So the first thing would be around. It's not just a loss of faith. Right. What comes with this sort of loss or faith transition is a loss of identity. Did you both feel that you can go first?

Kim Coffin [00:26:17] We definitely did feel a loss of identity. I think you struggled with that one more than I did.

Josh Coffin [00:26:24] Yeah. I think that the church is set up for the male figurehead.

Kim Coffin [00:26:28] What do they call it? The head of household.

Josh Coffin [00:26:30] Right.

Josh Coffin [00:26:30] So the authority, the power of the priesthood, male worship in some ways. And so I think I obviously benefited from that system. Right. And I didn't even know it sometimes. Right.

Kim Coffin [00:26:40] I just was just the way it was.

Josh Coffin [00:26:43] And suddenly you lost your faith, but then you've lost your authority and you lost your power, and you've. Not that I cared that much about those, but that suddenly I wasn't the one responsible. And suddenly the callings and the things that I did that, you know, all of the men did were no longer important. And the networking, the careers, the network of people. It was an identity crisis for me because everyone, everyone I had ever known or loved or met, the majority, 90 to 95%, were LDs. The few 5% that wasn't were from work that I might have met in traveling, consulting and things. And so my whole network is lds.

Kim Coffin [00:27:27] It's so scary to start to face

Josh Coffin [00:27:29] that network of people. Who am I? I was a byu, Idaho graduate. I was a returned missionary. I like that. Those were core identity pieces and pillars of my life that are now gone. So who am I now?

Margi Dehlin [00:27:42] Exactly?

Kim Coffin [00:27:43] And even who am I in the future? Because really, one of the things that shook you so, so greatly was I no longer have this security and knowledge that we will be together in the eternities. And how does that affect our relationship now? Now that we have the ability to choose whether we both want to be in this marriage and stay together?

Margi Dehlin [00:28:05] So is that also, like a marriage pillar that went down where I questioned,

Josh Coffin [00:28:11] I said, what is marriage?

Margi Dehlin [00:28:12] Yeah, right.

Josh Coffin [00:28:13] I was questioning everything.

Kim Coffin [00:28:14] Right.

Josh Coffin [00:28:15] But at some point I said, what is marriage? You were 18, I was 21.

Josh Coffin [00:28:18] What.

Kim Coffin [00:28:18] What is this?

Josh Coffin [00:28:20] What is parenting?

Kim Coffin [00:28:21] What is, like, what. Why did we make all these choices?

Josh Coffin [00:28:24] It almost was like we were doing all these things on a checklist that they wanted us to do. And at age 32, when you were 29, starting to first question, like, who am I and what do I actually want for my life? I'm no longer living for my grandpa and what career he wants me to do and what my mother thinks I should be doing and what my. And what my uncle thinks, and, you know, what they think I should be doing with my Sunday and with my callings and everything's questioned now. And so even marriage was a pillar that fell and it forced us to be honest with each other. A lot of Mormons like to say that ex Mormons all get divorced and all want to go sin. And sure, there are a lot of marriages that do separate after they leave the church, but it's not because being an ex Mormon ruins marriages. It's that sometimes the church was all they had in common, and you remove the church from the marriage and they have. They're forced to actually have other things in common and do other things together. And I think for us, luckily, we had some other pillars that, you know, parenting together and. And certain, like, shared interests. Shared interests, a shared business and. And also just a wanting to show up for each other and choose each other.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:35] Yeah.

Josh Coffin [00:29:36] Like, even if we don't know what marriage is anymore, if it's not this eternal thing that we can have reassurance of what, you know, what is, we can still show up each day and choose each other. And that can be what a marriage is. Right. And marriage doesn't have to be so prescribed and controlled by sort of a higher authority or institution.

Kim Coffin [00:29:57] That was brutal for me. I think that was really painful.

Josh Coffin [00:30:00] So hard because I just was like, this is what gives me joy. If I die, I'm with you forever, and the kids are forever, and there's some peace in the ceiling and the forever families. And to lose that, the anxiety there is crushing, for sure.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:16] Absolutely. Yeah, that makes sense. I think the identity piece, too, for women sometimes can look a little bit different than for men. In that, at least in my experience and in coaching a lot of women is. It's just this absolute feeling of being lost inside yourself, of just like, I don't know who I am. I don't know what I like. I don't know. It's sort of this sense of, like, how do I connect with myself? And honestly, where do I go from here? You know? And so. And I love that marital piece as well, the marriage piece. And almost having, like, it sounds like a version of marriage die in order to give birth to another version, which feels really scary. Like, I think it's the scariest thing is when you don't know what's next, all you're looking at is rubble. All you're looking at is what's gone down. Right.

Kim Coffin [00:31:19] Yeah. That's a fair statement.

Josh Coffin [00:31:20] It's really scary.

Kim Coffin [00:31:21] Yeah, it was scary. Yeah, it was hard.

Josh Coffin [00:31:24] I think the honesty with each other. Right. To say, like, we have to start from scratch. Like, we don't.

Kim Coffin [00:31:31] What do we do?

Josh Coffin [00:31:32] We were still together. We still have these kids.

Kim Coffin [00:31:33] We still.

Josh Coffin [00:31:34] We have these shared things.

Kim Coffin [00:31:36] But, like, we have to. We have to show up.

Josh Coffin [00:31:38] And for you, I think it allowed

Kim Coffin [00:31:39] you to be safer too. Right.

Josh Coffin [00:31:41] And be more authentic. I don't know if you want to touch on.

Kim Coffin [00:31:45] Yeah. So with leaving the church, that gave me the space to come out to you about my own sexuality being somewhere on the LGBTQIA spectrum. And that was not something that I ever previously was even close to being able to talk about. I grew up with very homophobic father who made terrible comments. And. And I would have never, ever said anything in my home because it wasn't safe to. So having that distance from him leaving the church, that allowed me to finally start exploring that, reading about it, trying to understand, you know, what is this

Margi Dehlin [00:32:34] your attraction and sexuality template.

Josh Coffin [00:32:38] Right.

Kim Coffin [00:32:38] And that was. That came as a big shock to you. That was hard.

Josh Coffin [00:32:43] Yeah, I think. I mean, that was. It took a lot of therapy for me to understand that. I just think it was hard for me as. Just to understand it. But, like, you shared this precious truth with me and you came out to me. You trusted me, and we wouldn't have had that trust had we stayed in the church. There was no authenticity. It was check the boxes, follow the script, and draw her to the end. And I also revealed to you, too that I occasionally looked at porn and occasionally masturbated. And I thought I was going to

Kim Coffin [00:33:13] take that to the grave.

Josh Coffin [00:33:14] I thought that, you know, I thought maybe I had an addiction or maybe,

Kim Coffin [00:33:18] you know, like once or twice a

Josh Coffin [00:33:19] month I'd look at something to try to fulfill a need. And I thought maybe this is. I have to take this. I can't tell anyone. I can't hold a calling. I don't want her to know. I don't want her to think that I think less of her and my attraction to her.

Kim Coffin [00:33:32] I don't want to devastate her.

Josh Coffin [00:33:34] And there is a lot of bad in the pornography industries. And I think that there's some terrible things there. And I don't fully support that, but there are women owned creators who create

Kim Coffin [00:33:43] this kind of thing and more ethical,

Josh Coffin [00:33:45] ethical options and things like that. And Tiffany Rowe talks a lot about Balesa and other things, and I was

Kim Coffin [00:33:51] just so devastated that that's something.

Josh Coffin [00:33:53] I'm going to take that to my grave. I'm not going to ever share that. I. I lust in my heart after someone else occasionally. And for her, I thought I would

Kim Coffin [00:34:01] never share my sexuality because one of those things we talked about earlier with that book was the idea that you have these evil spirits around you at any time. And so another idea I was taught was anytime you voice something that you feel tempted by or something that you're struggling with, those evil spirits immediately have more power to control you because they now know what's going on in your head. So in my mind, again, this is a more scrupulous belief was that it keeps me safe to never admit any weakness, to never admit anything that I'm tempted by or that I'm struggling with. And so I never spoke a word of it to anyone. Like, I wouldn't even let the thought ruminate. Because even in that book, it says if you have a thought and don't immediately cast it out if it sits for too long, that even allows those spirits to start having more power over you, which is. It's such a terrible belief system to have that you have no choice in this matter. That there's just these powers and these beings that can enter your body. That's so terrible, especially for someone dealing with ocd, where I already have intrusive thoughts that I'm fighting off all the time. Because with intrusive thoughts, you can have terrible things pop into your brain at any point in time. And I'm already fighting that thinking. Like, I must be a terrible person because I have bad thoughts come into my head.

Margi Dehlin [00:35:29] Yeah. And at least how I understand the treatment of ocd, the. The treatment is not to draw more attention, more intensity to the thoughts you're having. It's to allow them to be, you know, to have some space. That's right. To be able to hold some space around them as opposed to, like, really? So. Yeah. Okay. Can I ask. Also back to the holes. How about. I'm curious. You've mentioned community. Did you both feel a loss of community through your transition, your faith transition?

Kim Coffin [00:36:06] Absolutely.

Josh Coffin [00:36:08] Just family, extended family, friends, BYU network. Just so many people that I had shallow connections with that I thought were deeper connections. And then you pull the church, you strip the church away, and there's not as much in common. And there's also an awkwardness. Right. Where, oh, I don't know if I want to catch the flu that he has.

John Dehlin [00:36:33] They literally think that. Meaning the faith crisis.

Kim Coffin [00:36:35] The faith crisis.

Josh Coffin [00:36:36] Like, if he. If I go spend too much time with him, he might try to convince me. It's like, well, we can still be friends. Is this the only thing we have in common? There's so many other things. And it just becomes an awkwardness with cousins and big boundaries are put in place. You have to reform boundaries because others will try to convince you to come back.

Kim Coffin [00:36:55] Right.

Josh Coffin [00:36:56] You're become A project. And that's not safe either. And that's not great friendship. That's not authentic friendship or family either. So they always kind of have that ulterior motive of bringing you back. And so absolutely, it's been one of the loneliest, loneliest roads, family, friends, byu. Just all the folks I used to really hold in high regard. They used to hold me in high regard. I'll never forget one experience with, with our alma mater that was crushing where just makes me mad thinking about it.

Kim Coffin [00:37:29] But Kim had created this business and she had just been killing it, right? She just from scratch, mother of stay

Josh Coffin [00:37:37] at home, mother of three. And BYU quit your job?

Kim Coffin [00:37:40] I quit my job to join her.

Josh Coffin [00:37:41] I was in tech and I quit to join her in the middle of the pandemic. And we got reached out to by BYU Idaho's alumni network and they wanted to share a story, a feature about us as a couple. We were both alumni and we did a whole interview with Utah Valley magazine's company and I think it's Bennett Productions, and we did all of these types of Bennett communications. We did this huge interview and talked all about her business and it was all for BYU Idaho Alumni Magazine.

Kim Coffin [00:38:11] And we got to the very end

Josh Coffin [00:38:12] of it and the BYU alumni director called us and said, and I had shared a Mormon stories story in my

Kim Coffin [00:38:21] story, and I don't think we had fully even left the church at this point. I think you just listened to Mormon stories.

Josh Coffin [00:38:27] And I shared one story. This alumni director was a friend on Instagram and saw that I shared something about Mormon stories. And so he, he felt prompted, he felt prompted to call me and say, before we publish you on the COVID of the BYU Idaho Alumni magazine for this quarter about your wife's amazing business and this couple, I need to make

Kim Coffin [00:38:48] sure and check on your recommends.

Josh Coffin [00:38:51] And they had just expired because we were planning on not renewing them.

Josh Coffin [00:38:55] And it was Covid and it was

Josh Coffin [00:38:56] Covid and we just weren't going back. And I had to say, well, we don't have them. And so they pulled the entire interview. And I just, I was like, aren't you a secular institution too? Doesn't it matter that she's had financial and secular success in the real world apart from her faith in the, in the church that backs the institution? And I was just so mad because my wife's blood, sweat and tears in this business and mine was invalidated because I might be an apostate or I

Kim Coffin [00:39:30] might not have my temple recommend. And under the questions asked about our faith, it was all about the business.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:36] There's just.

Kim Coffin [00:39:36] How successful have you been? Tell us about that.

Josh Coffin [00:39:39] And that was devastating because, like, we're still alumni. I, I feel shame now putting my,

Kim Coffin [00:39:44] my alma mater on my resume.

Josh Coffin [00:39:45] In fact, I, I often put a little thing, a little blurb about. I don't, I don't support the policies by the administration about how they treat LGBTQ members. And I always, I always, I always preface that with employers because I don't,

Kim Coffin [00:40:01] I don't agree with the policies, but

Josh Coffin [00:40:04] that's where my degree's at. And so I.

John Dehlin [00:40:07] Let's talk about what's really important. Used to root for the football and the basketball teams.

Josh Coffin [00:40:11] The Cougars died so quick.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:13] I was such a huge fan and

Kim Coffin [00:40:15] she's like, so sad to see that die.

Josh Coffin [00:40:17] I used to go to all the football games and had all the cougar flags and. Huge BYU fan. And I was to go to the BYU NBA conferences. And I had all these huge great connections to these prominent Mormon leaders that would come to the BYU NBA conference. And, and that was just quickly dissolved once you're out.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:40] I feel like the community piece is. It's a big one and so multi layered, as you said, like family. We're talking about our families, our friends, our professional peers. Yeah. Okay. How about parenting? When it came to parenting, did you guys feel that hole of just sort of, wow, what do we do now?

Kim Coffin [00:41:09] It definitely changed the way that we were parenting about that same time. So let's think. We left 2019.

Kim Coffin [00:41:18] 2020.

Kim Coffin [00:41:18] Mormonism in 2020. July of 2020.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:21] So it's quite recent.

Kim Coffin [00:41:23] Yeah, it's been three years. A little over three years.

Kim Coffin [00:41:25] Yeah. And then a little bit after that,

Margi Dehlin [00:41:28] I

Kim Coffin [00:41:30] started learning about autism.

Josh Coffin [00:41:32] Yeah.

Kim Coffin [00:41:33] And I was like, wow, therapy we started.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:35] Was that part of the rebuilding or was that part of the loss? Okay, I'm gonna ask you about that. I am gonna ask you about that. But I'm curious how parent. The parenting loss showed up.

Kim Coffin [00:41:46] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:47] Like, what did it make you feel like? What was it that you felt like you lost

Kim Coffin [00:41:54] control and security? Like, all of a sudden I don't have this guidebook that I can follow. And I was, I was such an annoying Mormon. I would always read, like, if they had a manual or a handbook for any calling. I was like, I'm gonna read that because I need to know every single rule again. Themes of ocd. I have this, like, insatiable thirst for knowledge and answers and truth. And so all of a sudden, all of these answers, all of this research that I've Done. It no longer really applies to us. And we're starting from the ground. How do we parent if our goal is no longer to be an eternal family and to make it to heaven and to make sure that our kids get baptized and get the priesthood and do all the things and milestones. Yeah, Warm and milestones. What are our goals now? Like, life feels like we don't have a path to follow and we don't have a guide, and there's no man in our life to tell us, you should be doing this.

Kim Coffin [00:42:58] It really, I think through therapy, mental health awareness, we learned about neurodivergent traits, autism, adhd, sort of the spectrum of special needs or sensory issues or things that we notice in our children and even in Kim and others, and myself too, with adhd, that we might have to have different types of parenting strategies where it's not just this checklist of things you can and can't do and how you should raise them. And it was less fear and more love, which is more difficult because the church prescribes a template that you must follow. But it's actually easy to just send your kids to nursery, send your kids to primary, send them to young men's, young women's, and a lot of times you can let leaders and other parents raise your kids and kind of set the outline. Whereas when you pull them from all those systems, you have to say, what do I want to teach them? What do I have to actually work hard at? And it makes you reevaluate, like how much of a crutch. Sometimes parents were leaning on the church to take care of raising their kids. And so it caused us to say, okay, do we want a parent with fear? Do we want a parent with love? Do we want to be gentle parents? Do we want. Because any kid will respond to fear. Fear is effective, but it's not kind, and it causes problems in the long term.

Kim Coffin [00:44:13] At what cost? Like what you had said. Could you say that again? When we were speaking earlier, you said we were speaking about, like, authoritarian parenting and how that can affect a child.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:27] Yeah. Was that when we were talking about control versus connection? You might. With, let's just say a very compliant child, you may be able to get them to do what you want. So the behavior you want can be, you know, you may get that, but oftentimes, and I don't think children are that different from us as adults that if we're treated that way, how do we feel? Even if we do the thing, let's say we are compliant and there's A whole other. Like, if a child isn't right or has a will or has a. But, like, what's lost is trust in that person, a sense of connection with that person or. So, yeah. I'm really excited to hear more about how you rebuilt with parenting. I think the last hole oftentimes for people can be this sense of, let's just say, like more existential, kind of, let's just say that realm. Like, where am I going when I die? What do I believe about, you know, this life? What do I believe about people in my life who have died? And did. Did that touch you as well?

Kim Coffin [00:45:43] That definitely created a huge void for us of what happens next. And at first I felt this need to go. I have to go research and I have to find out what happens next. I need to know. I need something to follow, some template guidebook. I can't just be out there figuring things out on my own, because at that point in life, I had never had to sit quietly with myself and think, what do I want in my life? What do I value in my life? It had always been told to me. And that's really pretty easy when you don't have to question things, when you don't have to make decisions for yourself. And then all of a sudden it's

Josh Coffin [00:46:25] like, wow, well, being.

Kim Coffin [00:46:28] And sort of saying. Being okay with saying, I don't know. I think there's a lot of power there because people want the reassurance that they had before. We try to recreate that bond of we have this eternal plan and we have this plan of salvation, and here's all the steps and the layers to this thing, and try drawing it on a whiteboard. But when you step away from that and you're reconstructing or when you're trying

Josh Coffin [00:46:53] to figure out where you are, it

Kim Coffin [00:46:55] is devastating because you're like, where am I going to go when I die? Where is Grandma right now? What's going to happen to me? It is very scary to face because before you had that sense of just surety. I mean, you weren't even allowed to grieve. As a Mormon, which was one of my biggest issues with funerals. You couldn't even really grieve because it was like, oh, you'll see them again. So don't show too much emotion, like, where's the space for the grieving?

Josh Coffin [00:47:21] Right.

Kim Coffin [00:47:21] And so there wasn't.

Josh Coffin [00:47:23] You weren't really allowed to have a

Kim Coffin [00:47:24] lot of space for grieving anything. And so once you lose that reassurance that you might see someone Again, it really. It's devastating. You question everything. You worry about what's next. The three questions, where did I come from? Why am I here? Where am I going? You see, you want to find answers to those. And it's a hard hole to fill, and it's a devastating one, I think.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:45] Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. Just in general, I'm curious how you each processed grief and loss. So in that interim, before you have started, let's say, to rebuild. So you're still maybe in that place of. And I think we do. I mean, ideally, I think we have loss as we live. Right. I mean, we're kind of doing this all the time, but this is an exceptional time, I feel like, in transition. Do you want to share any things that were helpful to you or even just personally how you processed grief and loss during this time?

Kim Coffin [00:48:28] Yeah, mine was probably not the healthiest. I would say I was heavily dissociated in the form of work. I think we spoke a little bit about dissociation in one of the previous episodes. But dissociation can look different than what people expect it to. I think a lot of people imagine that it's like this lazy state where you're zoned out or you're being spacey. And dissociation can be highly productive. A lot of people that own their own businesses and are very successful are big dissociators. And that's like their coping mechanism for.

John Dehlin [00:49:05] Margi is making weird faces at me right now. And I just don't.

Kim Coffin [00:49:09] John the workaholic.

John Dehlin [00:49:11] What? Wait a minute.

Kim Coffin [00:49:13] No shame.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:15] No shame.

Kim Coffin [00:49:16] We all cope differently.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:17] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:49:18] I don't know what any of you are talking about right now.

Josh Coffin [00:49:20] I'm not sure what you mean.

John Dehlin [00:49:24] I'm sorry. Let me get back to my work here.

Josh Coffin [00:49:27] No time. No time to feel. Back to work. Yep.

Kim Coffin [00:49:32] And so dissociation can look almost as if you have a motor inside of you that is pretty propelling you forward to go and do. And so I really dove into my work during that time, and I was even looking back on some photos recently and thinking, did I not feel all of those emotions? Because that was a lot to be dealing with. And I don't remember fully feeling those emotions in that time period. Definitely felt them later on. But I think one of my mechanisms for dealing with how painful it was was to just really throw myself into work.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:08] Yes. Exit.

Kim Coffin [00:50:11] Yeah, I think too, for me, I didn't always cope in the healthiest ways. I did turn to therapy. That was a healthy way. Just trying to get reassurance of, like, what can I. What can I do? Like, looking for direction. But I did cope with. For me, eating food. Food was always a thing. Dopamine, seeking distractions.

Josh Coffin [00:50:32] Right.

Kim Coffin [00:50:33] Adhd, like diving into work, diving into the kids, diving into any. Anything else. Sports, anything I could do to kind of not think about those big emotions and not face those big emotions. But I'm a big feeler, and so it was hard to avoid them. And I would just break down and cry all the time. I just would just cry and cry. And I was just like, I don't have an eternal marriage. Like, what's gonna happen? And I just had anxiety and I just had even some OCD around those thoughts of, like, I don't have the reassurance I've always had and what's gonna happen to me? And, you know, will I be with my kids forever? And truly, if I hadn't stumbled into therapy, it would have really been a lot worse.

Kim Coffin [00:51:14] But you had some great therapists. You had a few different therapists along the way.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:18] Yeah.

Kim Coffin [00:51:19] During that time, therapy really did help. Kind of say, like, this is yours to reconstruct. This is yours to feel and to, you know, it's okay not to know.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:29] Yeah.

Kim Coffin [00:51:30] It's okay to say I don't know. And I think a lot of Mormons could. Cannot fathom not knowing because it's. You either know or you don't. And to say you don't know is like such a hard concept. But there's also some freedom there. Saying, you know. And I think agnostics always talk about this or like, I don't know if something's there, but I'm not going to deny that there might be. Right. I'm going to open my mind to the universe thinking that there may be a higher power, but I'm not sure. And I don't know all the things. And teaching kids, too, about, like, we don't know. It's okay not to know.

Kim Coffin [00:52:02] That's been very here. There's a lot of power in learning that it's okay to not have all of the answers.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:08] Yeah, absolutely. Well, is there anything you want to say more about the deconstruction piece or the grief and loss or should we go ahead into rebuilding?

Kim Coffin [00:52:19] I think that's.

Kim Coffin [00:52:20] I think we're probably good.

Kim Coffin [00:52:21] That's probably everything. We do construction. Yeah.

Josh Coffin [00:52:23] Okay. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:25] So if we were going to touch on, I think, one of the major places, and you kind of. It showed up in grief and loss, which I love as a bridge, by the way, to Rebuilding because it's such a great tool as well as, like, help in processing grief and loss was mental health. Right. Mental health is a key component to rebuilding. Do you want to start there?

Josh Coffin [00:52:49] Yeah.

Kim Coffin [00:52:49] So I think. I think anxiety and depression were always something that we had heard of in the church. It was not really ever addressed, but it was like, oh, so and so elder can't hack it and has anxiety and depression and needs to go home. We talked about that with my mission, and it was always like this weird, taboo thing, and we didn't know a lot about it. And I think we tried to learn more. I think with Kim and postpartum, after the kids, we, you know, understanding what postpartum was. You want to talk about?

Margi Dehlin [00:53:16] Yeah.

Kim Coffin [00:53:16] I had a really rough experience with postpartum with all three of our kids, but it was by far the worst with our youngest baby. And we had kids very quickly. One of, like, the scrupulous beliefs I had was that I needed to have kids as quickly as possible. And that was because we believed our sole purpose on the earth was to multiply and replenish. And I took that very literally. So our first two are 13 months apart, and our second and third are 18 months apart. And I had every. I mean, I fully expected to have as many kids as humanly possible. I wanted to be like the next Duggar family. I mean, terrible what actually happened with the Duggars, but that was the idea, like, how many children can I have? I want to have all the children. I want to do the best at this possible.

Kim Coffin [00:54:15] And then the postpartum hit you so

Kim Coffin [00:54:17] hard, and the postpartum hit.

Kim Coffin [00:54:18] We didn't know what it was. We didn't know what it was. It's not ever discussed what's mental health? Right. Anxiety, depression. Don't talk about it. Well, what was postpartum depression?

Josh Coffin [00:54:27] Yeah.

Kim Coffin [00:54:29] And postpartum ocd. The intrusive thoughts can be absolutely terrifying. So it was with our third that it got really bad.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:40] You.

Kim Coffin [00:54:41] You were working two jobs. I was home with the kids, and it was probably around when she was six months old. And from what I had heard, like, postpartum should be better by then. And I started having panic attacks, but I didn't have the words for them. I didn't know, like, this is a panic attack. This is anxiety. I just knew that it felt like I was dying. And if you've ever had a panic attack, it's like you can't breathe. The world is closing in on you. Everything feels so terrible. And in my mind, I Thought maybe like it's just evil spirits, like I'm being tempted or I'm not being righteous enough. And I started dealing with these over and over. And then the intrusive thoughts started.

Josh Coffin [00:55:33] And it's so painful looking back because the way that I was raised led me to believe again that there were

Kim Coffin [00:55:41] those evil spirits around me. And that if I had a bad thought, maybe I was being possessed. And I had intrusive thoughts, like around danger for my family. Like I had this one intrusive thought

Josh Coffin [00:55:55] that would come in over and over and you just have to think of

Kim Coffin [00:55:59] it on like, repeat. The ceiling fan is going to fall

Josh Coffin [00:56:02] and it's going to cut your baby into a million pieces. And you see the image and it's like this plays over and over every night. And that was only one of them. It was like every night I was being tormented with all the possible ways that my baby was going to die. And I stopped sleeping at night because I thought, I'm going to sleep through this, she's going to die. Like maybe these thoughts are coming from the Holy Ghost. He's manifesting to me that she's not

Kim Coffin [00:56:30] safe and I need to protect her

Josh Coffin [00:56:32] and I need to be more vigilant. So I'm going to stay awake all night long and I will not let anything harm my baby. And then thoughts started happening like I want to throw my baby against a wall and this thought would come in and this is an intrusive thought and you have no control. So if there's anyone watching this that has ever had this happen, I just want you to know this is not because you're bad or evil. This is classic ocd.

Kim Coffin [00:57:01] And this can happen and you don't have any control over it. And even sometimes fighting it can make it worse. And so I was having these by

John Dehlin [00:57:11] trying to make the thoughts go away.

Kim Coffin [00:57:12] Yes. Yeah. Like in my mind it was like, put a red stop sign up and that'll stop it, but that can actually be more damaging. So I'm having these thoughts just non stop day and night. I'm barely sleeping and things really take a turn for the worse.

Josh Coffin [00:57:34] We just, we didn't know. We didn't have any words for what was going on.

Kim Coffin [00:57:39] We didn't know what mental health was.

Josh Coffin [00:57:40] I was like, I must just be going crazy. We reached out to a friend at church who was so kind and understanding and I didn't tell her any of the intrusive thoughts that I was having because again, going back to that terrible book, if you say the thoughts that you're struggling with, it gives Satan more power over you. That was what I believed. So I never, ever admitted those thoughts because I was so ashamed, and I

Kim Coffin [00:58:11] didn't want there to be power over me.

Kim Coffin [00:58:13] You didn't tell me either.

Josh Coffin [00:58:14] No, I never did.

Kim Coffin [00:58:17] And we had a friend that was

Josh Coffin [00:58:18] helping us, and she recommended that I go get therapy. And I was like, no, therapy is for people that are weak. I've heard my dad tell me this for years and years. He's made fun of all of these mental health conditions. I'm not weak. I'm strong. I've always been strong, and it was so hard. But I wasn't sleeping, and I wasn't producing milk. My baby was hungry. So I finally saw a therapist. And the only thing I said was, I think I have postpartum depression. I didn't tell her any of the intrusive thoughts because I was too ashamed. And just based on what I told her, she said, it's not safe for you to be alone with your children. And I felt like an absolute failure. I mean, this is my sole purpose in life, is to be there for my children and to be a mother. And I've just been told it's not safe. I am not safe around my children, and that I need to have someone in the home at all times with me for the next month. So hard. And had I had any understanding of mental health, anything, just anything, it could have been reframed.

Kim Coffin [00:59:47] It could have been like, this isn't your fault.

Josh Coffin [00:59:49] This is something that so many women deal with, and they deal with it in silence. And you don't have control over intrusive thoughts.

Kim Coffin [00:59:59] You don't want to harm your baby. I always say it's like my brain has this, like, overactive threat assessment that's going on in my brain.

Josh Coffin [01:00:06] It's like, what could possibly go wrong?

Kim Coffin [01:00:08] Let's play out all of the scenarios so that we can keep the baby safe.

Kim Coffin [01:00:11] What are the risks?

Kim Coffin [01:00:12] And so that's what my brain was doing. And so I saw a nurse that day.

Josh Coffin [01:00:17] I saw a therapist, and I saw a psychiatrist and got on medication, and we got help from one of our sweet neighbors.

Kim Coffin [01:00:31] This is in California? Yeah. Yeah. We had a really great elm teacher and. And his wife, and they stepped in, and she. The wife, she knew. She knew about postpartum.

Josh Coffin [01:00:43] Like.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:44] Yeah, she.

Kim Coffin [01:00:45] She just knew. There's something about women. They just know. They're intuitive and. And they deal with this in silence. And she had four, five kids of her own and all grown and. And you finally did tell me about some of the intrusive thoughts, too. You did open up to me as well. And I think the medication was also something. There was a lot of stigma around. Like, you need. You need medication. Like, that's another weakness. Not only admitting that something might be wrong, but also that you need medication to help you. Which if anyone's listening now, especially young mothers, it's okay to see a therapist, it's okay to get medication. It may not solve forever, but if it keeps you safe, just because you may not talk about it in your family or there's some sort of stigma or taboo around mental health or medication, you don't have to listen to them. And you can do the opposite of what your family has taught you and what your church never taught you. And I think it really did help.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:41] Yeah, what did it like? How did it help you?

Josh Coffin [01:01:46] It helped with the intrusive thoughts.

Kim Coffin [01:01:49] I was able to start sleeping at night. I wasn't as worried about my daughter dying in the night. I wasn't worried about me accidentally harming

Josh Coffin [01:01:57] my kids because there was a time

Kim Coffin [01:02:00] when the thoughts were so bad.

Josh Coffin [01:02:02] I remember driving my car to preschool one day and I thought, if I just crash this car, these thoughts will stop and we'll be safe. My children will be safe from me and I'll be safe from the thoughts. It'll all be better. What if I just crash the car?

Kim Coffin [01:02:20] That was the first time you told me was the car. That was the memory I have.

Josh Coffin [01:02:25] Of course, she kept it all to herself.

Kim Coffin [01:02:28] I did everything I could as a

Josh Coffin [01:02:30] father to be supportive.

Kim Coffin [01:02:31] And just raising kids is such a.

Josh Coffin [01:02:33] It's so hard.

Josh Coffin [01:02:35] You had three under three under three.

Kim Coffin [01:02:37] Not a lot of family support. And I think it was just when you shared it with me finally, though, it allowed me to kind of help seek support.

Kim Coffin [01:02:46] You really stepped in. It was hard, and things got a lot better. And I started doing therapy, and that was really helpful.

Josh Coffin [01:02:52] But I.

Kim Coffin [01:02:55] It was funny. I was seeing a therapist who wasn't Mormon, and so I wasn't honest with her because I felt so strongly I needed to protect Mormonism as a whole and her view of me, like, maybe I'm the only Mormon you've met. I need to protect your view of Mormon. We need to be Mormon.

Josh Coffin [01:03:12] Women need to be strong.

Kim Coffin [01:03:13] And I can't tell you everything I'm dealing with. You won't understand me anyways. And I just wish I would have been honest or felt like I could have told her because there was so

Josh Coffin [01:03:23] much more I needed help with, we

Kim Coffin [01:03:26] got the help later, but, oh, postpartum is no joke.

Kim Coffin [01:03:32] Yeah. So as long as along that theme of reconstruction, rebuilding, like, having that mental health experience, I think that changes you.

Josh Coffin [01:03:40] Right.

Kim Coffin [01:03:41] When you have a mental health experience. There was one more experience we've had with mental health. If you're okay, if I. I had a sibling who was diagnosed as bipolar and went through a manic episode where they were not in their right mind. And when you think you might know mental health, like, oh, I know about anxiety and depression, there's so much more to mental health. There's mood disorders, there's personality disorders. And for me, I didn't know what bipolar disorder. I didn't know what it was, but I knew that my sibling was not in the right state of mind and trying to get that adult sibling help during that time. And there had been some severe traumas that this sibling had gone through, including being rejected by the Mormon community and being part of the LGBTQIA community and losing gay friends to suicide. Those traumas spiraled my sibling into a manic episode. Bipolar often gets misdiagnosed as depression until they see the other side, which is the manic episode. And for us to take a sibling into care around that. I just remember reading every book I could get my hands on about what is bipolar disorder? What is schizophrenia? What are personality disorders? Why did we not get taught any of this? Why is this never discussed? And luckily, this adult sibling got the help they needed, recovered, medicated, and basically back to a homeostasis. And everything was good, but we didn't understand what like. And I think also, too, when we talk about deconstructing systems and institutions, mental health services were terrible. It was so hard to find someone that could help us in this situation because cops and police get sent in and they don't have any idea what that's about. They're there to assess risk, and they don't. If they're not a harm to themselves, then what do the cops care? And that just speaks to those institutions. But having these mental health experiences really opened up our eyes to a lot of things. So as we're reconstructing and rebuilding, we're thinking of. We're thinking of postpartum. We're thinking of bipolar. We're thinking of these things that have happened in our lives, these experiences that we've had firsthand that were shocking, they were scary, never discussed in it. Just have more faith. Just read your scriptures. You won't have anxiety and depression if you just do a few more things. It's like, no, these are actually real conditions. These are real mental health struggles. And that really.

Josh Coffin [01:06:10] I mean, that changed our views, too,

Kim Coffin [01:06:12] to become more liberal, too. I think where we had grown up on a very conservative world where mental health is not discussed, we became more and more liberal with our views of, you need services, you need help. And I think an understanding of mental health helped us have empathy and to have us a type of love towards human humanity. It changed the way we.

Josh Coffin [01:06:36] We saw. We see others.

Kim Coffin [01:06:38] I really think that was a big part of, you know, understanding mental health, understanding therapy that helped us rebuild from the ground up. Having those. Those tough experiences.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:48] Yeah, that totally makes sense. And I'm hearing a lot too, of, you know, really bringing forth things that were unspoken unsaid. Right. So bringing things out of the darkness into the light with support around for you as you did it. Yeah, it's really, really courageous. Yeah. All right, so we have the mental health kind of layer. We could go into some of the holes and see how you kind of. Do you want to go to a place of, like, with rebuilding when it came to identity, you know, what has that. We're all journeying. We're not done. Right. But so far with identity, are there components or pieces that you've rebuilt that you feel proud of or.

Josh Coffin [01:07:44] Yeah.

Kim Coffin [01:07:45] Do you want me to start just rebuilding my identity around, you know, roles?

Josh Coffin [01:07:52] Right.

Kim Coffin [01:07:53] Like, I don't have to be perfect in my roles. I don't have to hold the anxiety of the father husband. I also don't have to be so masculine. I'm allowed to be a feminine man. I'm allowed to. Gender norms are not, you know, a

Josh Coffin [01:08:09] big part of it.

Kim Coffin [01:08:10] And this identity of. Because people will say, like, oh, like, why are you so why do you care about emotional intelligence? Or why do you care about emotional load? And why do you talk about therapy all the time? And it's like, I still lift weights and watch football. I'm still a guy. Like, I still define myself in that masculine. In those masculine ways, but I'm also comfortable in the femininity.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:30] You're a whole person.

Kim Coffin [01:08:31] Yes. There's so much more to us than a gender role. And so I think that's been great for our reconstruction as a couple because we've just embraced the fact that we are both masculine and feminine and that, you know, a dad can be. It can be different for every family. And so that's been good for me to just not be and also to not have the stress of being the

Josh Coffin [01:08:56] priesthood leader who is responsible for the

Kim Coffin [01:09:00] Souls and his family about whether or not they do all of the milestones. And I think identity for you has also changed.

Rebuilding Identity, Community, and a New Life

Kim Coffin [01:09:08] Yeah, identity has changed a lot as we've rebuilt over the past few years. I think there's been so many layers. I feel like first accepting myself as a businesswoman and a working mom and all that that entails, because I definitely had shame and guilt around that when I was in the church. That's not always something that's well respected and allowing myself to fully lean into. It's okay for me to do something that I love, and even it's great for me to do something that I love because then I'm not putting all of this pressure on my children to perform because I am lacking validation. Absolutely. I feel like that's been so beautiful to see our children just learn and grow and have room for error. And I have what fulfills me, which is my business. My children also fulfill me. But I don't need their accomplishments to fulfill me. And I don't need their accomplishments to prove that I'm a great mom or that I'm doing what's right. It's like they have so much room and space in this new reconstructed world that we're living in where they can mess up. And I love that so much. I love that they aren't forced to be perfect and that they don't hold that heaviness of, am I enough? Am I going to be with my family in heaven? They get to learn and grow and make mistakes, and we encourage that.

Kim Coffin [01:10:38] It's like undoing the cycle that I went through.

Kim Coffin [01:10:40] Absolutely.

Kim Coffin [01:10:41] The perfectionism, the overachiever, just allowing children

Josh Coffin [01:10:45] to fail, to frolic, to experience.

Kim Coffin [01:10:50] All I was telling Margi earlier about how we stick the kids in all these different sports and activities and voice lessons and what is it that you want to do? Find your passions. Not you need to do football, because dad did football.

Kim Coffin [01:11:03] Or that reminds me, too, Margi had mentioned, as you leave the church, a lot of times you find that you don't know too much about yourself. And I think because we've always been told, like, you need to be this and you need to do that, and this is what you enjoy, and that's what you should get your happiness out of. It's like you leave, and all of a sudden it's like, okay, so who am I? Like, what color do I actually like to wear? And what clothing do I want to wear? What makes me me feel happy?

Kim Coffin [01:11:33] Yeah.

Kim Coffin [01:11:34] And what do I want to do with my business? And so I'VE had all this space to, like, figure out what movies do I actually enjoy because it's different than what I thought I enjoyed and that's okay. And also, like, again with the mental health, with rebuilding my own personal identity. I got diagnosed as being autistic, which came as a real shock when we first found out about it, but made so much sense. And suddenly I was able to look at my life through this new lens and be like, wow, this makes so much sense. This is why I never felt like I fit in. This is why I always did things a little bit differently than everyone else. And I felt like the quirky girl. This is why I have special interests where I find out, you know, about a cricut machine, and I'm like, I need to know every single thing about this machine and then I need to teach people about it. And it's like, wow, I wouldn't have that without autism. And got diagnosed with ADHD as well. And then also OCD at the same time, which was a lot to process.

John Dehlin [01:12:36] It's a lot of acronyms.

Kim Coffin [01:12:37] Yeah, yeah, it's a lot. But it allowed you to embrace your identity and not have shame around this new knowledge. Because to us, it's like, people focus on that. Like, a diagnosis can have a stigma, but it's like, isn't it just new information? Isn't it just a new way to approach your life? Isn't it just a new way to

Josh Coffin [01:12:55] adjust the way you live your life

Kim Coffin [01:12:56] so that you can have a better life? And isn't it just a characteristic about you? It could be a superpower, it can be a positive thing. Sure, it has its negatives, but it doesn't have to just be this all consuming, defining diagnosis.

Kim Coffin [01:13:10] I think I view it more as, like, I have this new tool set that I didn't have before, and this information allows me to be handier. Like, I can fix things now. I can understand why do I struggle with this task or why do I struggle with this thing? Like, oh, I have a better way to frame the way that my brain works and understand that. And that's so powerful. It doesn't mean I, you know, I don't know. For me, it's just been really, really helpful to better understand myself and to not be worried about weaknesses. Because in the church, it was always like, I don't want anything to be wrong with me because that's a weakness and that's a moral failing.

Kim Coffin [01:13:48] Right?

Kim Coffin [01:13:48] And now it's like, oh, no, it's okay to have weaknesses and maybe imperfections. And things that I'm working on and things that I'm struggling with.

Kim Coffin [01:13:59] I think too also you had the identity of like, I don't necessarily know where I fall on the sexuality spectrum. Like I don't have to define myself by this sort of heteronormativity or this, yeah, this, this, you know, man and woman only or this specific thing. Thing. Or maybe I'm asexual. Maybe, you know, like just be able to, just being able to question it and have that be valid, I think. Wasn't that a big part of.

Josh Coffin [01:14:24] Well, for both of us just to

Kim Coffin [01:14:25] be able to say, have a safe space to question the things we like, the things we don't like? Yeah, for me I, I got a lot of tattoos. I kind of hit them on. But I, you know, some of the authenticity for me was to take back. And I have two sleeves on both my arms and that was me taking back my identity. This is something that is important to me. And every single one of them has a meaning and has either a family tie or my children or my wife or different aspects of my life and characteristics about me. So my identity with tattoos has been a great journey. There's a lot of art that I've enjoyed more.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:10] Yeah.

Kim Coffin [01:15:11] And even just hobbies and things that I've enjoyed around my identity about being, being, embracing the nerd rather than having to be a jock. It's embracing the things that I thought were not okay to be and doing

Kim Coffin [01:15:25] things you used to think were selfish and now you have the freedom to, oh, I like doing Lego sets. But it used to be like, if I have free time, how should I be serving? Or what should I be doing with this free time.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:36] That's right. It's like that tier of, you know, the best, the best, the thing that's worth your time. We grew up right in that kind of hierarchy, that pyramid of optimization. As opposed to like, what about rest? What about pleasure? What about enjoyment?

Kim Coffin [01:15:54] What about, yeah, you could always spend more time in your calling. You can always spend more time with your family. But like I used to often say that Mormon men were terrible about spending time with other men just doing guys trips or doing things that were like platonic relationships and just doing things that they wanted to do. Right. To own their identity and not be. And I do think that women obviously are the second class citizen in Mormonism, that men do have it better. But even Mormon men struggle with their own brand of shame and guilt and what's required of a father and a patriarch in a home. And there's not a lot of selfish things you can do. It's all self sacrifice for your family. And you need to be able to be a person, have a personal identity and not just be a number. And so I found great joy in communities of men and just friends just to do trips and not feel guilt about it and say, you know, and we take turns where you go do a girls trip and I'll go do a guys trip. And that feels great.

Josh Coffin [01:16:54] And that's.

Kim Coffin [01:16:54] It's something you've really had to work at, though. Getting comfortable with doing things for yourself has been a theme in therapy for the past year, where your therapist is like, please do this thing for yourself.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:05] That's such an amazing theme. And I love that you say work, because I do think some of these things, they feel uncomfortable. When you've been so conditioned to endure, to suffer through, to. To reorient yourself to a place of, like, really enjoyment, pleasure, rest. I think it is a practice. It's effortful.

Josh Coffin [01:17:29] Yeah.

Kim Coffin [01:17:30] I was so shocked when my therapist was like, you need to spend two days alone. I was like, what? But just, you need to do things and doing things you enjoy. That was so hard for me to say, I'm gonna go to the movies, I'm gonna go get a massage. I'm gonna go, like, go. Just, like, to try to focus on just me.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:50] That's right.

Kim Coffin [01:17:51] And it was an amazing experience. Right.

Kim Coffin [01:17:54] It took its own form of exposure therapy because you had so many fears around. If I leave, everything crumbles or everyone needs me there, or someone will be injured or. And it was like, you would go and leave and be like, oh, everything went okay. Everyone's still alive. I'm allowed to enjoy my time. Then you do it again and, oh, it's still.

Josh Coffin [01:18:15] Everything's okay.

John Dehlin [01:18:16] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:16] Yeah, that's great. Yeah, that's so real. How about rebuilding with regard to community? How has that been?

Kim Coffin [01:18:27] Yeah. We have found some of the most incredible people. I feel like in the ex Mormon community, we have a group of friends that we just adore.

Kim Coffin [01:18:38] You've had a few of them on your podcast, but Shay and Amanda Scott were some of the first friends you made in St. George.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:47] All the love for them.

Kim Coffin [01:18:48] Amazing people. Shay's journey was really touching. I have trans friends, which is so cool. So something that I didn't know that I could ever understand or have in my life. And through Shay, I've met other trans women and heard their stories and former Mormons and learning about gender dysphoria. And Dallin and Ashley seely is another couple that's. Dallin was on Mormon stories as well. And St. George is just filled with great, great people. Some of them are hiding from their family in Utah county. Others are just there to kind of. And there are a lot of Mormons in St. George, but we found a great community of ex Mormons, and that's just a few of the folks we've met and great families who are just have values for their kids and they're doing their best. And. And we're just trying to create a community. We don't. We can't rely on our LDS Tools app to find the families in the ward. We have to work harder to find the other families that are not on the list. And we have to make effort and

Josh Coffin [01:19:57] we have to try to help our

Kim Coffin [01:19:59] kids make friends with them. And the extra effort, though, has been amazing. And it's hard, but it's neat.

Kim Coffin [01:20:06] I think that we really get to build our own family now where it can be so much deeper. I feel like once you leave the church and you can be open and honest with people about here are the things that I'm dealing with or I'm struggling with, or here's what I've gone through, I think you have to be careful to some extent not to overshare. I think we've definitely seen that in the ex Mormon community because everyone's hurting and there's a lot of pain. So we've definitely had to learn, like, okay, let's take it slow.

Josh Coffin [01:20:36] I don't want.

Kim Coffin [01:20:36] Don't unload all of your trauma on me. The very first time we meet, like, let's create a relationship first and feed that and let it grow and slowly share. But we have friendships, I feel like that we never would have been able to have within the church because you just couldn't be honest about what you were struggling with in the church. There was this need to be perfect. And I think I probably felt that more than most people feel. So for me, I guess it's been really validating to be able to be close to people and find, find, make our own little family.

Kim Coffin [01:21:15] Yeah, being vulnerable, but to an extent, right. I think we've always been advocates for getting a therapist and working on your own things, but to be able to resonate with others and to even have some shared traumas and to then rebuild as a community and to raise kids in a community of people that understand what you've been through can be very validating. It can be very fulfilling. I think it also comes with some. I think you have to be careful, too.

Josh Coffin [01:21:42] Right.

Kim Coffin [01:21:42] Because you want to have some boundaries, too. Right. And it can be hard when you've lost so much family. You're trying to rebuild family, too, and

Josh Coffin [01:21:51] you have to be careful.

Kim Coffin [01:21:52] And everyone has different standards, different. Different coping mechanisms, different things that they want to enjoy. As an ex Mormon, and we've always found that, you know, peer pressure is never a good thing. You should do what you think is best and live your own authentic life without judging the choices of others.

Josh Coffin [01:22:10] You do what's best for you. Live authentically, live your best life. But let also give us the space

Kim Coffin [01:22:17] to do that as well. And we found a lot of really good people in that space. And it's been people that we just never would have ever had associations with or just wouldn't have met or wouldn't have interacted with. And it's just some of the kindest, nicest people. And just lack of judgment is so nice to just really be authentic and just be a human being. And you know that you just don't get. You get those shallow relationships.

Josh Coffin [01:22:44] You get the.

Kim Coffin [01:22:45] I need to check off this box to say that I visited you or

Josh Coffin [01:22:48] that I need to.

Kim Coffin [01:22:50] You're within my geographical boundaries. It's like, is that friendship or is that a statistic? So it's been nice to have authentic, genuine relationships.

Josh Coffin [01:23:03] You do have to work harder.

Kim Coffin [01:23:04] You do have to work harder to find them.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:06] Yeah.

Kim Coffin [01:23:07] You do have to put more effort into it. You can't just show up and find them.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:10] Yeah. All right, just a couple more here.

Kim Coffin [01:23:14] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:15] But I did want to let you talk about parenting. I know that's been a big one that you've rebuilt with a lot of shifts. Do you want to talk about that a little bit?

Josh Coffin [01:23:26] Do you want to start?

Josh Coffin [01:23:27] Yeah, sure.

Kim Coffin [01:23:28] I think my default's always to parent with fear, just because that's kind of how I was raised. And so yelling or threats or just compliance, and that's never a healthy way to do it. And I still fight that all the time because it feels like that was what was the way to do it. And through deconstruction and now reconstruction, it's. Fear is a great motivator. It's effective, but it's a terrible type of motivator. Like, it's not. It has lasting impacts. And there isn't a connection, like you said, with children. And so parenting from love, having that connection with the child and also admitting when you make mistakes. Right. Because we're not going to be perfect, and we're definitely not. But to say, you know, dad is sorry for yelling or dad made a mistake here, but to mostly try to just parent with love, to parent with gentle, kind ways. Letting them grow, letting them make mistakes, letting their failures be okay. Not judging them, not giving them a list of do's and do nots. That's been.

Kim Coffin [01:24:30] But still having boundaries at the same time. That's one of the things my therapist has had to talk to me about, is you can be kind all you want, but you still need to have boundaries. I'm like, oh, okay, right. But it's definitely been a huge shift as we've left the church with how we parent because before so much pressure was placed on our children to perform in a certain way. It's like we need to show up to church and we need to look perfect and everyone needs to be dressed a certain way and you need to sit quietly and reverently through this entire sacrament meeting. Come to find out all of our children are neurodivergent. And that is very difficult. And we don't have to feel shame about that anymore. It's not some moral failing on our part. It's neurodivergence makes it hard to sit still and focus for three hours or two now. And it's definitely affected how we parent. I think also distancing myself from my own family has really changed the way that I parent because I think long term about what are the effects of the ways that I parent. If I lose my temper, if I parent from a place of anger and rage, and if there were physical abuse, like, my kids don't have to stay in contact with me and like, I want to create a relationship where they want to come home once they're an adult in a healthy way. Not in a way where we're enmeshed, but in a way where they're like, I enjoy being at home with my parents and I feel safe and I want to make sure that we're fostering that environment, but also, you know, teaching them and helping them to grow and allowing for mistakes because mistakes are such a vital part of growing up and not being shamed for making mistakes.

Kim Coffin [01:26:15] That's such a good example because you'll see this a lot in the mental health space on Instagram and TikTok around. Why would your adult children not want to come home for Christmas? It's like, well, how are they treated when they're there? And our job is to want them, to want to be around us, you know, to have that relationship. Obviously we have to empower them to go and do and to be productive humans. But we want them to want to come home for the holidays and to want to spend time with us. And if there's a power fear dynamic, it's just not. It's not healthy. And if there's a sort of encouragement and love, it's just such a better place to parent from. I'm so glad that we left when we did and learned those things when we did, because we were about to experience all the milestones and the baptismal covenants and the things that you commit to. With our 7 year old daughter about to be 8, we were. I mean, if we had given her that and the way that she follows rules, it would have been devastating to her because she would be judging herself against this standard. That. And that's the thing about extended family too is like you take your kids to extended family and if they can't respect this new form of parenting, these new boundaries we have, it's not healthy for the kids to see that we're trying to break cycles, not continue the cycles.

Josh Coffin [01:27:31] Right.

Kim Coffin [01:27:32] And sometimes breaking cycles requires big boundaries. And you try to explain your boundaries in a way that's respectful of past generations. But if they're not open to change or allowing you to have the autonomy to parent your own kids, sometimes you have to be the bad guy and set the hard boundary. And I don't think generationally that's been widely accepted around a certain age group. So that's. I think there's a lot of millennial parents struggling with that right now. We definitely have, but it's important that we establish those boundaries.

Kim Coffin [01:28:02] I think we've also found our ability to parent in a healthy way is directly correlated with the health of our marriage. And the stronger we are together, we're more united in the way that we parent. But also if you and I are fulfilling each other's needs and we're fulfilling our own needs, we don't have to turn to our children anymore to be that source of comfort, to be there doesn't need to be parentification in our home because we're fully invested in each other and we're not going to allow our children to fill that void. If one of us is hurting, that's for us to deal with with each other or with our therapist. It's not anything that needs to be. Our children don't need to bear that

Kim Coffin [01:28:49] burden and project our problems on our children. It's like you don't want to go to your parents when you're having a marital issue. You should Go to a therapist. You don't want to go to your children either. And so I had a lot of triangulation and parentification, too, and it's just. It can destroy relationships. Some of my sibling relationships are so strained because there was triangulation with parents. And so my. My kids will never feel that. In fact, sometimes I see my kids and the things that they don't have to deal with, and I'm just, like, in shock, in awe about how beautiful your life is as a child in this home. And it's not perfect. We make a lot of mistakes.

Kim Coffin [01:29:25] We really do.

Kim Coffin [01:29:26] We admit them all the time. We apologize all the time. We try to be transparent that we're not perfect and adults are not perfect. And you should quit question adults. You should have critical thinking. But I look at him sometimes and go, I just can't even fathom growing up like this.

Kim Coffin [01:29:40] Like, the other day, Lincoln called you out. You had said something, and he goes, no, you can't tell me to do that. That is not fair. You can't talk to me that way. And I was like, oh, my goodness. Had I spoken to my parents like that, first off, I never would have. But also, thank you for calling out that we were being unfair because you had raised your voice at him, and it wasn't fair. And I was like, I'm proud of you that you feel like if we're out of line, you can say, hey, you're not treating me fairly. Because in our new relationship, it's not like the parent is up here and the child is down here. It's like there's respect, and respect goes both ways. We don't just respect our elders. We also treat our children with respect because they need to see that modeled.

Kim Coffin [01:30:26] That goes for adult children as well, not just children under 18.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:29] That's right.

Josh Coffin [01:30:30] Right.

Kim Coffin [01:30:31] Respect goes both ways. That's a big one.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:34] Yeah. Yeah. It really strikes me, I feel, particularly with themes around seeing your children and creating safety for them. Not just with their brains, their actual, you know, how their brains function, but also their hearts and physical. Their physical environment as well. And it strikes me that sometimes when we grow up and our needs aren't met in some of those ways, that they're the guiding lights in how we know maybe a little bit of what our kids might need, and that's kind of the place where we can start. Yeah. It's beautiful to. It's beautiful to see. All right, here's my last. Let's see. I just said last two. Okay, here's the deal. I would love to hear what you feel most proud about right now in this journey. It could be individually, it can be as a couple. But, like, if we're going to just say things that you feel most proud about, victories in this rebuilding, you know what comes to you.

Reflections, Gratitude, and Closing Thoughts

Kim Coffin [01:31:54] I think for me, it's really been finding my voice. Like, when we first got married, you always joked that I, like, couldn't speak, and I. And I couldn't. I struggled with alexithymia, which is, like, the inability to really relate to the feelings that you're experiencing. I was heavily dissociated, and it was really hard for me to know what I was feeling. I was very aware and very empathetic to the needs of everyone around me, but I always put myself last. And I think the thing that I'm most proud of is the work that I've done to find my voice, to find what's important to me, and really to work hard at coming out of that dissociative state and being present with all of my emotions. Because I really didn't experience the full spectrum of emotions until after Mormonism, because so many times there isn't the safe environment or you're not encouraged to really feel anger or sadness. It's just like, we always have to be happy, and we always have to be good, and we're perfect at all times. And it was like, no, sometimes things are really painful, and sometimes I feel really angry, and that's okay. Like, it's okay to feel anger. And how do we process that anger and how do we work through those big emotions? So I think finding my voice has been this overarching theme for me in the past few years, and that has involved a lot of. We did a lot of emdr. We did a lot of working on boundaries, setting boundaries. It's changed even, like, the way that I work with my employees. Like, when I first started hiring employees, I couldn't even tell them, like, I need you to do this.

Josh Coffin [01:33:46] I was like, oh, my God, no. Whatever you want to do, it's fine. I'm just so happy to have you.

Kim Coffin [01:33:51] And now I'm to a place where I'm like, oh, I can give feedback. It's okay if I have feedback. That's something I'm allowed to do.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:57] Yeah.

Kim Coffin [01:33:58] Even the first time you got mad or sad, like, we've been married 13 years, and the first 10 years of our marriage, I never really saw you get mad.

Kim Coffin [01:34:06] Yeah. I don't even know if you really

Kim Coffin [01:34:07] saw me cry or cry or express emotion. It Was so dissociative. And three years ago, started going through therapy and I was like, she's mad. I almost got excited. I was like, yes, we can change that. Of course we can. Like, I've always been the emotional one.

Kim Coffin [01:34:24] Right.

Kim Coffin [01:34:24] And she's always been the more stoic one. And I think that was beautiful to see you find your voice, stand up for yourself, especially with your family, it's a huge victory. I think mine is also standing up for myself with very enmeshed community.

Josh Coffin [01:34:44] It's hard to sort of be isolated

Kim Coffin [01:34:48] from all that family and to set those boundaries with family, to start saying that these are the ways I'm going to start doing things, to actively choose to set new standards for my family, to break those cycles, even though it comes at a personal loss of community. Because had I been really selfish at first, I could have said, no, no, no, we'll go through the hoops, we'll go through the motions so I can keep my community. And I really thought that was what we could do. We could just go. We could be the. Go through the motions and show up and pretend for the sake of the community. And so just being willing to stand up to some of those big voices, like grandparents and aunts and uncles and to just tell them that, no, I'm gonna do my life the way I want to do my life, and I'm gonna raise my kids differently. I'm gonna break these cycles. And I think that's probably what I'm most proud of, is a victory.

Kim Coffin [01:35:46] Yeah, you used to really be a huge people pleaser. And to see you come out of that and find yourself and find what makes you happy has been really beautiful.

Margi Dehlin [01:35:57] Yeah, absolutely. We celebrate you, really.

Kim Coffin [01:36:04] Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:05] Yeah, thank you for sharing with us.

John Dehlin [01:36:09] Beautiful. Well, that's really inspiring. And it's only like seven hours in or something like that.

Kim Coffin [01:36:17] That's quite the therapy session, John.

John Dehlin [01:36:19] I said to Margi, we're doing today, in three, three hours we're doing today. And then I met you guys and started learning more about your story. And I'm like, all right, Margi, long day. Thank you for having us drop in. So It's a. It's 8pm we started at 10, so here we are. Anyway, thanks for driving all the way down, all the way up. But most importantly, Josh and Kim, thank you so much for your courage. It's no small thing to be a social media influencer where you gotta imagine some of your audience are lds.

Kim Coffin [01:36:55] Oh, definitely.

John Dehlin [01:36:55] And you fight and scratch for everybody. Little bit of support and Endorsement. So, you know, there's so many dentists and doctors and lawyers and business people that I interact with and I get it where they're just like, I, oh, I've got great stories to tell, but I'm never going to tell my story because I don't want to hurt business, you know, and again, no judgment. People need to be and feel safe and, and I love what, you know, I love what I have seen, which is that it takes a lot of courage to be a whistleblower, but when you do, you, it helps other people. It's probably the number one way to help other people is for just to first to raise our voices. And that doesn't happen unless people make sacrifices and show courage. And you both did that today. So I just want to thank you. We honor you and we want to express our thanks.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:56] Yeah.

Kim Coffin [01:37:57] Thank you for sharing your platform with us and allowing us to speak with you both. It really means so much to both

Kim Coffin [01:38:02] of us and for all the work you've done. Truly a pioneer in this space. I mean, the amount of people you've helped. I think like Margi said, every person has a story that can help others and we're just grateful to tell ours and hope that it helps others. And we love to listen to all the stories that you talk about and, and, and I just, it's just amazing what you've done in this space. And it's crazy how I used to think that he was like the scary person.

Kim Coffin [01:38:28] Like that's how the Antichrist was.

Kim Coffin [01:38:30] They villainized him when I was in the church. And now here we are having a tender heart moment with him and just grateful for all you've sacrificed in your life to put this kind of content out there and to tell stories, to tell truth. And Margi, how intuitive you are and how feeling you are, like such an example of a parent and a mother and of just growth and rebirth and you're just amazing individuals.

Josh Coffin [01:38:59] You really are.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:01] Thank you for that.

John Dehlin [01:39:04] All right, well, to close, I want to thank Margi. Thanks for being here and being my partner in truth and righteousness, as I like to say.

Josh Coffin [01:39:15] Wow.

John Dehlin [01:39:17] Thanks for joining.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:18] That's a lot right there.

John Dehlin [01:39:21] Thanks, Julia, for helping out with the time codes and show notes. Maven with the post production, Harto with the thumbnails and all the help he gives, which is legion, and of course our board. I want to thank everyone, all the donors. We, we couldn't do this without the donors. We're grateful for the super chats, but really it's the monthly Donors that are our bread and butter and they make all this possible. And so thank you. If you are a donor, we couldn't do it without you. If you don't currently support Mormon Stories podcast, but you find value in it, we make a call. We ask that you Please go to MormonStories.org, click on the Donate button and become a monthly donor. If all you can afford is 10 bucks a month or whatever, that's great. If you can afford more, that's great. But we rely on your donations. We have hundreds of thousands of viewers and listeners at this point and maybe 1500 donate. If we just had a few of y' all sign up, that can make a huge difference. So please support us if you can@mormonstories.org and y' all have a YouTube channel as well. Let's give you one last chance to plug it.

Kim Coffin [01:40:38] You always make me plug it. Do you want to plug it?

Kim Coffin [01:40:40] It's called Sweet Red Poppy. If you want to follow us, we would love that. I share all things crafting and diy. I love to teach crafting tech, so anything like a sewing machine, a cricut machine, Glowforge, a serger.

Josh Coffin [01:40:55] I quilting.

Kim Coffin [01:40:56] I'm quilting even. Yes, I'm quite the crafting enthusiast, so I would love it if you gave us a follow.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:02] It's brilliant.

John Dehlin [01:41:03] And you do courses and we do courses, yeah.

Kim Coffin [01:41:06] We have a book and.

Josh Coffin [01:41:07] Yeah.

Kim Coffin [01:41:08] Ebooks, online courses, patterns.

Kim Coffin [01:41:11] Lots of free SVG files and sewing patterns on our website as well.

Kim Coffin [01:41:14] We're on every social platform, too, so.

John Dehlin [01:41:16] All right, beautiful. Well, keep up the great work. If any of your fans are watching or listening to for the first time, thanks for joining us. Subscribe to Mormon stories podcast on YouTube and Facebook and everywhere else. TikTok, Instagram and surprise, subscribe to Red Poppy.

Kim Coffin [01:41:33] What is it?

John Dehlin [01:41:34] Sweet Red Poppy YouTube channel and all the others. All right.

Kim Coffin [01:41:38] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:41:39] All right. I'm exhausted. Thanks for joining us today. Join us again soon for another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. And, you know, please be aware that this book, Visions of Glory, is ultimately causing a lot of harm, intentional or unintentional. It's causing a lot of harm, including deaths, not to be overly dramatic. So please talk to whoever you want to talk to about it, and let's figure out a way to make this book, I don't know, have less, at a minimum, cause less harm. Thanks to everyone. Again, take care, be good to each other, be kind to each other, and we'll see you all again soon. On another episode of Mormon Stories. Podcast take care of.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.