Introduction and Episode Overview

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 775

John Dehlin [00:00:02] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking the Donate button on the top right side of the page. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. Hello everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is July 19, 2017, and today we are very excited to have with us Ruthie Robertson. For those of you who haven't heard, Ruthie is an adjunct professor at BYU Idaho. I believe she teaches political science there. I was a political science major, so maybe we can geek out at some point, Ruthie. But the reason why we're interviewing her, Ruthie contacted me, I think about a month ago, letting me know that she was, I don't know, under investigation. We'll talk about it, but under investigation for coming out publicly on her Facebook page as an LGBT ally. And we didn't talk for a few weeks because I think some administrative things were going on or Ruthie was waiting for the right time. And yesterday I saw it on kutv.com but the news broke that Ruthie had been fired from BYU Idaho, or at least that's what the headline says for her Facebook post in support of LGBT people. So the purpose of this interview, it's not going to be a super long interview. It's going to be about an hour long because I have to run to a meeting. But we're going to get a good hour in with Ruthie to talk about her story and to talk about a little bit of a background, a little bit of what's going on, what happened, why she did it, what she was thinking, and what the process was for getting fired and what her plans are for the future. So we're going to cover all that. We've got already 43 people joining us live on Facebook. We really love doing these things live because they allow us to take questions, to have them be interactive. So those of you listening, please start posting your questions and comments now because we want to hear from you. Kevin writes. Wow. Super excited to have this on so soon. Just read about this story this morning. Crazy censorship. So that's the first comment. A lot of good friends joining us, Doug and Pat and Jenna and Jera, Lee, Cody, lots of cool people joining us so thanks to everyone for joining us. So, Ruthie Robertson, welcome to Mormon Stories.

Ruthie Robertson [00:03:09] Thanks, John. It's really good to be here.

John Dehlin [00:03:13] And tell us the color of your hair.

Ruthie Robertson [00:03:15] It is some kind of crazy purple blue combination. I don't really know how many BYU

John Dehlin [00:03:20] Idaho professors have purple blue hair.

Ruthie Robertson [00:03:24] Not many. I think I dyed my hair silver when I found out they were firing me, and that's kind of like my little outlet for when I freak out.

John Dehlin [00:03:35] And what the heck is on your left wrist? What is that? Oh, your right wrist. What is it? The other wrist?

Ruthie Robertson [00:03:42] This. This is a LGBT Pride tattoo that I got how recently?

John Dehlin [00:03:49] Okay, so you're going crazy after this. What about the other wrist?

Ruthie Robertson [00:03:52] Got this one as well.

John Dehlin [00:03:54] What is that?

Ruthie Robertson [00:03:54] Okay, Female symbol with the equality in the middle.

John Dehlin [00:03:58] You're just going all crazy with tattoos, huh?

Ruthie Robertson [00:04:00] Well, there you go. Mom and dad, if you're watching, I have tattoos.

Ruthie's Mormon Upbringing and Background

John Dehlin [00:04:04] All right, well, let's start with the backup. So tell us a bit about your Mormon story, a little bit, just so we have a little background on you. Yeah.

Ruthie Robertson [00:04:12] So I was born and raised in Virginia, and that's where my parents met. So my dad comes from a long line of lds. I think the story he told me is our, like, great, great, great, great grandma found a Book of Mormon and a pile of burning books, because the people where she was were burning the Book of Mormons, picked up the book and converted. And so his side of the family had been LDS ever since. And then when they met in high school, my dad converted my mom, so they had us. We're all born in the covenant, grew up lds. Both my brothers served missions. My sister got married out at byui. All of us went to one of the church schools. My oldest brother is the only one who went to Provo. The rest of us went to byu, Idaho. So just kind of the normal Mormon experience.

John Dehlin [00:05:09] Okay, but your. But your main ward in high school was where?

Ruthie Robertson [00:05:13] Smithfield. Yeah. So Smithfield, Virginia, it was. We were part of the Bennett's Creek Ward for a really long time. And then when I was about 10, they split us. And I had been a branch up until, like, two years ago or something, I think. I think it grew and became a ward.

John Dehlin [00:05:31] So somewhere in Virginia. So did you do the normal, like, seminary and youth conference and church dances and all that stuff?

Ruthie Robertson [00:05:40] I was really involved as a youth. I didn't do seminary the way most people did it. So the high school I went to was outside the normal boundaries, so I couldn't make it to school on time with doing early Morning seminary. So I did homeschool seminary. And in fact I was actually homeschooled until I went to high school.

John Dehlin [00:06:01] What type of adolescent Mormon were you? Were you rebellious? Were you active? Were you true believing? Were you orthodox? Were you mixed?

Ruthie Robertson [00:06:09] I think huge mix. For a long time I was pretty tbm. And then somewhere around my junior year of high school, I kind of got a little bit rebellious. But my rebellion was like dyeing my hair different colors and wanting to like hang out with skater boys or something stupid. Like it wasn't anything like really serious as far as rebellion. Just pretty chill, pretty tame. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:36] And what was your testimony or faith like in high school?

Ruthie Robertson [00:06:43] I think for a long time in high school it was just kind of like, oh, you know, this is what my family believes and this is what I do. And I think part of me believed a little bit, but a lot of it was just kind of really cultural and social up until college. And then when I got into college, I delved really deep into the gospel and to the church and became pretty hardcore. Had a really strong testimony.

John Dehlin [00:07:07] That was BYU Idaho.

Ruthie Robertson [00:07:08] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:07:09] So what was it about BYU Idaho that really got your testimony going? What's just some of the experiences at that school? We've never really talked about the BYU Idaho experience on Mormon stories. So yeah, talk about that a bit. What BYU Idaho is like a big

Ruthie Robertson [00:07:24] part of it was, you know, the Mormon community. I had never lived where I, where I'm from, it's like no LDS people. There was like one other young woman with me and young women's until I was almost done. So it was having all of these Mormons around me, people having the same experience, being constantly surrounded by the gospel, all the classes always starting out with prayers and everything, having some kind of gospel center to it. And so that was a big help as well. And I think for me it was being on my own. I was finally like out of the house and I had to figure out where I stood without my parents being the ones to make me go to church. I had to make the decision myself.

John Dehlin [00:08:10] And so, yeah, and so what did, what were the main things that strengthened your testimony? Was it just personal scripture study and prayer? Was it religion classes? Was it your ward? Like, what were the things that built your testimony at BYU Idaho?

Ruthie Robertson [00:08:27] Definitely my own personal study. Religion classes were kind of a joke.

John Dehlin [00:08:32] In what way were they a joke?

Ruthie Robertson [00:08:34] A lot of it is a lot of religion classes and this isn't every religion professor, but a lot of religion classes is, you know, Gospel According to so. And so, and it was all very nitpicky, and it was about, like, outward measurements of spirituality rather than actually focusing on the message of Christ and that sort of thing. So for me, the most part, it was, you know, my own personal study. I remember with General Conference, once I started college, I watched all four of the normal sessions, the priesthood session and the women's session, and I would just take vigorous notes the entire time. And I still think I have, like, three journals somewhere here with just General conference notes everywhere. And so, yeah, it was all my own personal study and gaining my own testimony and relationship with Christ and finding that connection.

John Dehlin [00:09:29] And so by what. By what grade in college did you feel like you had a really solid commitment to the gospel?

Ruthie Robertson [00:09:36] I probably say towards the end of my sophomore year

John Dehlin [00:09:41] and.

Ruthie Robertson [00:09:42] Yeah, somewhere towards the end of my sophomore year. And then my. Sorry, go ahead.

John Dehlin [00:09:46] How long did that last?

Ruthie Robertson [00:09:49] Long time. So the. Let's see, the end of my junior year, I ended up being able to go through the temple.

John Dehlin [00:09:57] Oh, wow. Not. Not going on a mission?

Ruthie Robertson [00:10:00] No, I thought about going on a mission towards. I think it was the end of my sophomore year, I thought about going on a mission, but I actually had my paper submitted and everything. But I didn't end up feeling like it was right, but I still wanted to go through the temple really badly. And so I ended up having a bishop out at school that was fantastic, and he approved me to go through, and so I went through in August 2015. So up until then, super hardcore, really had a strong testimony. Never questioned much about the church, you know, had same concerns most people do.

John Dehlin [00:10:43] How'd you like the temple?

Ruthie Robertson [00:10:46] When I first went through, it was really confusing. I guess I didn't notice a whole lot because there's just so much to take in at the beginning. But I never really had a negative experience for the most part, I think. So you did a podcast a while back with Amy. I can't remember her last name, but she talked about sexism and, like, her feminist awakening and the sexism she saw in the temple.

John Dehlin [00:11:13] Oh, yeah. Amy Olivest.

Ruthie Robertson [00:11:15] Yeah. Such a good podcast. So those were the similar concerns that I had in the temple with that. And I remember, like, the first time I went through, and I was asking my mom, I was like, all of this is, like, dealing with me and a husband. Like, I'm a single woman like this. I don't see the connection. Why is it like this? And why is this all about me and a husband when it's just me and God and so that I'd always had kind of an issue with. But other than those few small things, I'd always had a really positive spiritual experience, mostly because of my own, like, connection to Heavenly Father. It was. It was all about that, for me, is putting myself into an environment where it was just peaceful, quiet, and I could connect. So.

Developing Empathy for LGBT Mormons

John Dehlin [00:12:01] So did you. Was there anything in your high school or early byu, Idaho years that made you sympathetic to LGBT stuff? Or is that something that came later?

Ruthie Robertson [00:12:12] I think it was just always growing up, I never really thought about it being any different. Like, I watched my parents and the way they would react to, like, LGBT things, like, on tv. And at that point, when I was that young, it was, like, revolutionary for same sex couple to kiss on tv, pretty much. But I just never seen anything wrong with it. And I had a lot of LGBT friends in high school, so I just didn't really think twice about it. And I'd always tried to figure out where I stood versus where the church stood, because I knew the church had the policy that, you know, homosexuality is a sin. And so I was like, okay. Like, okay, fine, like it's a sin, but I don't really care what anyone does. They can get married, and it's fine with me. And then I had started coming to the conclusion, like, wait a second. I don't. I don't feel like this is right. Maybe it's not a sin. And then the November 15 policy came out and just felt like the entire. Like, I had fought for so long to make my personal views fit with the church, and then with that policy, I felt like the rug had been, like, torn out from under me.

John Dehlin [00:13:25] Now, where were you in your studies at that point in 2015?

Ruthie Robertson [00:13:29] That was. It was supposed to be my last semester of college, but I was stupid and split up my credits. So it was almost the end of my college career.

John Dehlin [00:13:38] So you finished school in 2016?

Ruthie Robertson [00:13:41] Yes. So April 16 is when I graduated.

John Dehlin [00:13:43] Okay, and for you, but for you, did the November policy cause, like, a crisis of faith? Did you stop believing?

Ruthie Robertson [00:13:51] Not at that point. I had a panic. In fact, I remember when the policy was leaked. A good friend of mine, we were in the same class, and we both saw the leak at the same time, and we turned to each other and we were like, are we about to get, like, excommunicated because we support same sex marriage and we, like, support LGBT 100%? And we went to a bunch of our professors in the political science department, and we were asking them, like, are we gonna get kicked out of school? Are we gonna be excommunicated. And it was really great because they, like, reassured us, like, no, like, we're on the same side as you. We're not gonna get excommunicated. We're not gonna get kicked out. Like, it's okay. We don't have to agree with this policy.

John Dehlin [00:14:29] These were professors.

Ruthie Robertson [00:14:30] Yeah. And that's why.

John Dehlin [00:14:33] So there's BYU Idaho professors that disagree with the church's policies.

Ruthie Robertson [00:14:37] Absolutely. And that's why when I was in the administrative meetings, that's why I told him, I was like, if you're going to fire me for disagreeing with one policy of the church, you better fire every single professor. But.

John Dehlin [00:14:47] So you're saying there's a lot of BYU Idaho professors that feel the same way you do?

Ruthie Robertson [00:14:51] Definitely. And especially, like, when you're in the social science departments, because those are the more liberal departments in the school. If you're like in the business or economics or something like that, it's super hardcore conservative. But the social sciences have always been pretty liberal there.

John Dehlin [00:15:08] Really quick, did you know any lg. Sorry? Did you know any LGBT Mormons growing up or at BYU Idaho? And can you talk a little bit about what their experiences were, trying to be Mormon and lgbt?

Ruthie Robertson [00:15:21] Yeah. So I didn't know any LGBT in high school that were lds, at least none that had come out. I'm sure there might have been some, but I knew a lot at BYU Idaho, and in fact, I graduated with one who was actually president of the USGA on campus and several others that later on came out transferred, etc. And their experiences were not positive for the most part, especially if they were openly gay. Those that hadn't officially come out had a little bit of an easier time.

John Dehlin [00:16:00] But being in the closet. Being in the closet is. Can be terrible too, right?

Ruthie Robertson [00:16:05] Yeah. Well. And especially, like, if you're hearing all this, the common, like the snide comments about lgbt, and you know, inside you're like, well, you're talking about me, but I can't tell you that. So I'm sure that was really rough for them.

John Dehlin [00:16:18] So it's kind of a lose, lose. They're either closeted and they're suffering from being closeted, or they come out. And when they come out, what happened to your friends that came out?

Ruthie Robertson [00:16:28] So my really good friend that was openly gay had a huge struggle. And I don't know all of the details of it, but I know. So he was from Ashton, Idaho, and so he would travel back and forth between Ashton and Rexburg every day for school and at times he would live on campus, but he had a hard time with living on campus because he was openly gay and his male roommates were jerks and stupid. And so I know that was a hard thing for him that he had a hard time being able to, like, live on campus. And he was actually suspended for a year from school because he was seen on campus holding hands with a guy, just holding hands. What bothered me about that when he told me about it is that, like, if you saw two girls holding hands, you wouldn't even. Second. Like, you wouldn't second guess it. No one would say anything.

John Dehlin [00:17:27] And holding hands isn't against any law of chastity either, by the way.

Ruthie Robertson [00:17:31] No, no. And actually, so I talked to the Washington Post about this, and I think they went and did some research and saw that there's actually specific rules for same gender attraction students, that any form of affection is considered breaking the honor code for them.

John Dehlin [00:17:50] Hugging or holding hands.

Ruthie Robertson [00:17:51] Yeah, I didn't know that at first, and I don't know 100% if that's actually true or not, but I wouldn't be surprised if they added that in.

John Dehlin [00:18:01] Let me ask you one quick question about the culture of BYU Idaho. It's viewed, I've heard it referred to as like the Saudi Arabia of Mormonism in the sense that it's perceived as being very, very, very conservative. Kind of like the most conservative hotbed within Mormonism, maybe even more conservative than Provo. And it's hard to beat Provo. Right. And I'm just wondering if that means that everybody's toeing the line or if there's just this culture of quietly not believing or not doing what you should, but then kind of faking it in public or what's the culture there? You've already mentioned professors that don't believe in what the church teaches, but just are quiet about it. Is there a culture of hiding and lying at BYU Idaho in your view?

Ruthie Robertson [00:18:50] Absolutely. Absolutely. In fact, I actually just got an email today from a BYUI student who was telling me that they. So they're the new president of a. Well, actually, no. So I got an email from a student, and they're fearful that, like, now as an LGBT student, that they're not safe on campus because of what's happened with me getting fired for supporting LGBT rights. They feel like it's not a safe space for them now, and that just by simply being lgbt, even if they don't act on it, that they're in danger of getting kicked out.

John Dehlin [00:19:26] Yeah, like, it's so Confusing the church. It seems like with as much power and money the church has, they should be more responsible and consistent. Because it's one thing to just say, hey, if you support LGBT people, we don't want you as a Mormon. Get out, go away, run and hide.

Ruthie Robertson [00:19:45] Well, you know, according to Bednar, there's no such thing as the LGBT Mormons.

John Dehlin [00:19:48] That's. Well, that's so confusing. But also, like, if you, if you listen to some of the comments Elder D. Todd Christofferson made, we're not going to kick people out for supporting LGBT people. You should love your LGBT family members. I think I remember a comment from an apostle on the Mormons and gays website that basically said, we should be the world's leaders in love and compassion for LGBT people. So on the one hand, we get messages like that, and on the other hand, we get people fired for just a Facebook post. Right? And we get, well, go ahead.

Ruthie Robertson [00:20:22] Funny thing, like, after the November 15 policy was leaked, and then they're finally like, oh, yeah, this is real. Like, Kristofferson made the statement that, like, yes, we have this policy, but you're not, like, your membership isn't in danger if you don't agree with it. And you are free to publicly support LGBT rights and same sex marriage and all of that. And so essentially, the school's decision, as well as the church's actions when it comes to these sort of things contradicts what some of the brethren have. Have said. And so I feel like for me, that tells me that there's this huge divide amongst the Brethren that you've got part of the quorum that is super hardcore conservative, wants to keep everything the way it is and just go hardcore and everything. And then you've got the softer side of the Brethren that realize, you know, we're gonna lose people if we keep pushing. So it's interesting seeing, for me, seeing that divide there.

John Dehlin [00:21:18] Totally. Richard writes, the church appears to be making everything up as it goes along. Laurie writes, it's never been safe for LGBT students. Don't blame Ruthie. And that's. I think the most important point here is, as I mentioned before, how would an LGBT student feel now that they're at BYU Idaho? What do you think, Ruthie?

Ruthie Robertson [00:21:42] I don't think LGBT have ever really felt safe at BYU Idaho. Not just about getting kicked out, but treatment by other students. And that's something that I made very clear in my classes. And probably the only thing I ever really said about LGBT was that I expect complete respect and kindness to everyone. No matter what. And so if someone was lgbt, that if I heard any student make a comment that was derogatory, that they'd be out, like, get out of my lecture, come back with a better attitude, basically. But I don't think they've ever felt safe. But I think now at this point it's just even worse. It feels like it's almost like an attack on the entire community, which seems like a really unwise thing to do with the church's stance right now with lgbt, they're already losing a lot of people because of it. So I don't know why they'd want to make it worse.

John Dehlin [00:22:34] Right. Lindsay writes, I was at BYUI when Proposition 8 in California was going on. I voiced my support for gay marriage and was bullied by my roommates so much I had to drop out. Kent writes, when I worked for byu, I toured our sister office at BYU Idaho, and at the end of the tour they asked if we wanted a drink. And in their break room they had a fridge full of caffeinated drinks and they were laughing. And then Trent writes, religion classes were always the worst for me as a closeted gay student. Jokes about violence towards LGBT were very common. I was eventually able to find a safe space among more liberal friends in the music and arts part parts of the school. Oh, go ahead.

Ruthie Robertson [00:23:17] Sorry. Those are, those are the areas where I think that LGBT are the safest is when they're in the social sciences. Like the crap I can't even remember, like social work departments, political science, English class, like English, all of those like liberal arts sort of things is where you have the more moderate to liberal students. And that's where LGBT are probably safest and more able to come out and be honest because those groups of students are more accepting. So. So.

John Dehlin [00:23:45] Right, Chris. One more I'll read from Chris. Chris wrote, I was an apartment manager at BYU Idaho student approved housing in a men's housing complex. We had a boy in our complex who was gay and was forced to leave because of it. We had to help him break his lease since he was kicked out mid semester. He was the nicest kid and I felt so bad for him at the time. I felt that it was a good thing so we could go through the repentance process. But now with what I know about LGBT people scientifically and hearing their stories, I feel so bad for him. I regret not reaching out more to him. So many heartbreaking stories. But let's go on with your story, Ruthie. So how did you become a BYU adjunct professor? Just As a. As a undergraduate or with a bachelor's degree.

Teaching as an Adjunct Professor at BYU-Idaho

Ruthie Robertson [00:24:31] Yeah. So after I graduated in 2006, April 16, that following spring semester, I actually taught poli sci 170, which is introduction to International Relations. I taught it for internship credit. And so for that credit, I kind of had to revamp the class. I added new readings, created course plans, et cetera, and I taught the classes under the supervision of a faculty member. And so with that kind of proved my ability with teaching, with interactions with students, and my intellectual and academic capabilities. And then I moved to Utah for a little bit and worked there. And then they asked me if I would be willing to teach online, to teach the same class online during the winter. So I agreed. Went through all of that, taught online for a semester, and then halfway through the winter semester, they were like, hey, we need someone to come on campus and teach because one of our faculty members doesn't have the credit hours to be able to do it. Would you be willing to? And so I moved to Rexburg mid. Mid winter semester and then started teaching this past spring and taught two classes.

John Dehlin [00:25:46] How'd you like teaching?

Ruthie Robertson [00:25:47] I love it so much. There's a lot of reasons to be upset for what happened, but I think my students are the biggest reason that I'm upset, because they were just fantastic. And for the most part, all of them were so willing to listen and to learn and be engaged. And it's. It's something I'm passionate about teaching in any area, but specifically teaching international relations. It's. I loved it.

John Dehlin [00:26:13] Okay, so you taught one. Is that the main course you taught? International relations?

Ruthie Robertson [00:26:16] Yeah. Introduction to International Relations.

John Dehlin [00:26:18] Okay, cool. That's cool. I took that. Byu. Okay, so I'm guessing that you knew or you suspected. Okay, so I'm guessing you suspected that coming out on your Facebook page in support of LGBT people might be risky for your job. But is that true or not?

Ruthie Robertson [00:26:41] So I didn't even think about it as far as my job. When I posted it, I knew it was going to be controversial.

John Dehlin [00:26:48] Okay, wait, but let's. Before we go, there, are there rules that you sign as a BYU Idaho professor around free speech, around supporting the church, around temple recommends, anything like that?

Ruthie Robertson [00:27:00] Okay. Yeah. So you. In part of the contract, you have to be worthy to have a temple recommend, which I still have an active one. And as far as, like, opinions and stuff, there's nothing. As far as social media. There's no clause that says you can't express your opinion on social media. Of course, it talks about, like, the classroom and proper conduct. And you knew to be supportive of the church in the classroom, which I always was. I didn't say things contrary to the doctrine. I think the only thing that was like contrary to the doctrine that I ever did in my classroom was I had a glass of green tea that I.

John Dehlin [00:27:36] So to the question about what you have to agree to to be a BYU professor, you were saying that it's. You just have to have. You have to be temple recommend worthy. But there's nothing around censorship or public speech or anything like that.

Ruthie Robertson [00:27:52] No, it's the only thing is within the classroom, like so the reason they let me go, their logic behind it is that part of a professor's duty is to support and build testimonies of Christ. And so they said that a professor that doesn't agree 100% with all the church doctrines and policies is not able to fulfill that. So basically telling me that by disagreeing with the church's policies on lgbt, I'm undermining students testimonies, which is really funny because a lot of students said that it actually helped build their testimony by knowing that someone supported LGBT rights in the church.

John Dehlin [00:28:41] But anyway, okay, so they're saying the most important thing, and this reflects a comment I made offline. The most important thing to the church and to those who run BYU is to strengthen Mormon testimonies. That's it. Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org. thank you very much.

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 776

John Dehlin [00:00:02] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking the donate button on the top right side of the page. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. Hello, everyone, and welcome Back to part two of my interview with with Ruthie Robertson. It's July 19, 2017. We didn't plan on this interviewing being two parts, but the Internet gods, or if you're a conspiracy theorist, the LDS Church and the BYU Idaho authorities subverted our Internet connection and made it so we weren't able to continue our conversation. We had a really, really large group of people tuning in. Over 250 people live tuned in. And now we're trying to start again. We've got about 70 people joining, a lot of great people still joining us. So we hope that we can finish this conversation. So, Ruthie, welcome back to Mormon Stories Podcast. It's good to have you back for part two, John.

Ruthie Robertson [00:01:32] Hopefully this time it works.

John Dehlin [00:01:35] So we've already talked about your upbringing in the church. We've talked about your time at byu, how your faith grew stronger to the point where you asked to take out your endowments, even. Even, you know, before getting married or separate from serving a mission. We talked about how, as an lgbt, sort of, as a. Let's just say a millennial or post millennial, whatever the term is these days for people your age, you just always sort of felt like LGBT people deserve love and respect, but you just sort of maybe figured out the church was wrong or, or you just were able to sort of exist with your support of LGBT people, knowing you had an approach that was different from the churches. And then we talked about how November, the November 2015 policy sort of was a breaking point for you, where you just knew that you saw things differently. But having said that, it wasn't until 2016 that you started teaching. Is that correct?

Ruthie Robertson [00:02:40] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:02:41] And you were teaching international relations, is that right? And so one of the things I think I asked you, and maybe this is where we can start the interview, is what does a BYU Idaho professor agree to or not agree to when they. When they sign up to be a professor? You did talk about this at the end, but that was when things were really spotty.

Faculty Contracts and Expectations at BYU-Idaho

Ruthie Robertson [00:03:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:04] So let's just. Let's just pick up from that point. What do you sign and agree to? Not when you're a BYU Idaho professor.

Ruthie Robertson [00:03:10] So the biggest things is, number one, professors live by the honor code as well as the students. So the BYU honor code is what faculty members agree to as well. And that's the major portion of, like, how we're supposed to conduct ourselves inside and outside of the university, in our classrooms. And if you look at the honor code, there's absolutely nothing in it that says you have to agree with 100% of what the church says. And it doesn't say anything about, you know, using social media to express yourself or anything. It doesn't cover that in the honor code. And then once you get down into the nitty gritty part of, like, the faculty handbook, it talks about conduct within the classroom. And within that, of course, it's about building and supporting the testimonies of Christ. And that's the major thing that professors are supposed to do. You're not supposed to speak ill of the church within your classroom, which I never did. And even in my Facebook post, I wasn't speaking ill of the church. Some people claim that I was. While that wasn't my intent, and that's not how I was trying to approach it, but looking throughout the entire handbook, there's nothing in it that says you can't use social media as a platform to express your own opinions. The most important thing is that it's not within your classroom. And that was something. As a political science professor, that was important to me that my students didn't know about my own political opinions or even my opinions that might differ from the church. And so I didn't have my students on my Facebook for that reason. So I've gone through the faculty handbook and all of my contracts, and there's absolutely nothing that says you have to agree 100% with everything the church says, and you can't express yourself in a private setting or contradictory to something the church says.

John Dehlin [00:05:03] Okay, so as you were contemplating making this post, is it fair to say that you just had no idea that there would be any implications for your job?

Ruthie Robertson [00:05:18] No, I didn't think that that was gonna happen at all. I mean, like I said, I knew it was gonna be controversial. A majority of my friends are LDs, and so, of course, it was gonna kind of strike some people the wrong way. And that's really nothing new for me. I'm always been pretty controversial because I grew up in a conservative area, and I'm crazy, crazy liberal. And so most of my opinions are not what my friends are. So I knew it would be controversial, but I didn't for a second think, oh, you know, if I post this, I'm gonna lose my job because it wasn't something that ever took place in my classroom. So

John Dehlin [00:05:58] Kevin writes a similar question. He writes, I read in your revised Facebook post that you had no idea that you'd be fired for taking a public view on this issue in the direction that you did. He says, I want to poke on that and challenge it a bit. Byu, and the church in general has a long and proven history of immediately expelling anyone who voices an opinion and contrary to the opinion of the church. As someone who comes across as intelligent and well spoken, do you stand by those comments, or did you actually know, even if subconsciously, that this would happen? Also, did your original post contain such a blatant exclamation of your personal beliefs, or was that an edit and a somewhat defiant one that was a result of your original meeting with school officials? So those are Kevin's questions.

Ruthie Robertson [00:06:40] Okay, so as to the. You know, the church does have a history. If you disagree with them, you get excommunicated. I mean, John, you're a perfect example of that. And Kate Kelly, there's everyone that was excommunicated for supporting civil rights before the church lifted the band in 78. Yeah, they have a history of people speaking out, but I guess for me, it wasn't. I wasn't thinking, oh, you know, in my private Facebook, if I.

John Dehlin [00:07:07] If I. If I could just help, just. I'm sorry for inserting myself, but the truth is, there is a history of that. But also, in the past few years, the church has been incredibly lenient, and it seems like there was a wave of excommunications around the 2014, 15, 16 timeframe. But there's plenty of people who show LGBT support, who march in pride parades, and they're never punished. So it's not so much about being a member. It's about being a church employee or a employee of a BYU school. And my guess is that those people tend to never publicly disagree with the church or its leaders or face consequences. Now, is that a history you've been aware of or not so much?

Ruthie Robertson [00:08:00] Well, I'm going to contradict that in the fact that I knew many professors and know many professors that publicly disagree with church policies that are faculty colleagues of mine, and. And they're not fired, but it's probably because they're a lot older than I am and have more. Well, and the fact that they have tenure, so there's that. They have to have good cause. And that's understandable. Like being a church employee and having to be more careful about what you say. And I can understand that to an extent. And I told them that in the meetings that if I was, you know, using my position as a professor to. To preach these things, then, yeah, totally dismiss me. But this was just my, like, personal confession. And so to Kevin. Yeah, I didn't think about it being something that would lose my. That I would lose my job over, because I've always been kind of an outspoken person. I was always really outspoken as a student at byu Idaho, and never got myself in trouble with that. It's just kind of who I've always been with speaking out. And sometimes it gets me in trouble, obviously, as I got fired for it. Question to Kevin. Which portion of the edit is he speaking of?

John Dehlin [00:09:15] Yeah, well, let's actually go to what you wrote. Do you have it up, what you wrote, what your original Facebook post was? Because I think it would be interesting for you just to kind of read through it.

Ruthie Robertson [00:09:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:30] And we can just hear what your position was.

Ruthie Robertson [00:09:34] Okay, I just need to pull it up real quick.

John Dehlin [00:09:38] Is it still on your Facebook page?

Ruthie Robertson [00:09:40] It is, yes.

John Dehlin [00:09:42] Okay. All right.

Ruthie Robertson [00:09:44] So there's two different versions because I edited it to kind of please the university in hopes of being able to keep my job. So do you want me to read the original right now?

John Dehlin [00:09:56] Yeah, read the original. Yeah.

Ruthie Robertson [00:09:58] So the original states. So on June 5, in honor of LGBT Pride Month, I thought I would reveal some things in the name of authenticity. I'm currently a member of the LDS Church. This organization has openly and forcefully opposed same sex relationships and legalized same sex marriage. They pushed members in California to fight against Prop 8 and had a policy claiming that same sex relationships were a sin and discouraged individuals from participating in them. And that's in reference to the proclamation. Family Proclamation. Sorry. In the past, the church was a facilitator for adoptions. They ended this part of the organization to avoid having to deal with adoption requests from same sex couples. In November 2015, they took their stance further by labeling same sex couples in the church as apostates, meaning those found in relationships would have a disciplinary hearing to determine their membership status. They can either end their engagements in this sinful life or be excommunicated. The policy also prevents their children from joining the church until they are 18, with the condition that they disavow their parents lifestyle. For an organization that places so much importance on the family unit this policy sure seems to be attacking that form of that unit. Most Christian faiths label homosexuality as a sin based on archaic writings. A few hateful verses in the Old Testament have led to hundreds of years of prejudice, hatred, violence, and pain. If we're going to follow the Old Testament and use it to justify a hateful stance, there are several things we need to start condemning and punishing. This is where I get kind of sarcastic, because that's who I am as a person. Leviticus 19:19 tells us we can't wear clothing of two kinds of material. So basically every clothing item ever has to be burnt. The next time you see someone wearing clothes, which is always so you're welcome for the opportunity to show your spiritual superiority. Check the tag to see the materials it's made up from. If it's more than one, tell them they should desire to walk around naked rather than wear clothing made of more than one material. Women. In Leviticus 15, we learn that God purposely made us unclean when we menstruate. We are unclean for those seven days. Oh, and anyone or anything that touches us during that time is unclean as well. You aren't allowed to go to a church at that time because you'll corrupt everything there with your blood flow. Oh, and you know how God also gave us the ability to grow human inside of us? Well, after a woman has a child, she has a period of impurity and cannot be touched. If it's a boy, she's unclean for 40 days. If it's a girl, she's unclean for 80 days. As a female, you also are not allowed to read from the scriptures. But wait, how am I supposed to know about my impurity rituals then? I need to know how to make myself pure after my period. Oh, well, too bad you also cannot preach in a church. Can I use this as an excuse next time I'm asked to speak in church? None of this is archaic, sexist, or totally illogical at all though, right? God commanded these things, so we need to make sure that we make these into policies as well. What I'm trying to convey through this sarcasm is, is that we like to pick and choose from the scriptures, and if we choose to use the Old Testament as a defense for condemning homosexuality, there's a whole lot more we need to be condemning as well. The Book of Mormon is supposed to be the keystone of the church, right? It never once mentions homosexuality. What it does mention is that God disposed. I meant to say despised. Oops. The practice of polygamy and the nephites are brought to repentance for practicing it. Yet Joseph Smith said God commanded him to practice it. We can't keep picking and choosing what kind of God we worship, and we can't keep picking and choosing which commandments of his are to be enforced or not. This is my official announcement and declaration that I believe heterosexuality and homosexuality are both natural and neither is sinful. I will never support the phrase love the sinner, hate the sin, because that sin is part of who that person is. Homosexuality and transgenderism are not sins. If God made us and those are part of who we are, then God created that as well. I realize that my views counter the current day policies of the LDS Church, but I hope that over time the church will come to see the harm these policies have. Church history shows that the church has rescinded policies before that weren't doctrinal and that weren't inspired by the Lord. I hope that this will someday apply to the stance on LGBT community. I will always and forever stand up for the equality of LGBT community. Sexuality and gender are not binary. They are on a spectrum, and that is how we are made. Stand up for humanity. Love people because of who they are, not despite who they are. Trump can break the tradition of June being LGBT Pride Month, but I'm still going to celebrate it this month and every month to follow. That was a lot of reading.

John Dehlin [00:14:23] Excellent. Okay, so what happened when you posted that post?

The Facebook Post and Initial Reactions

Ruthie Robertson [00:14:30] A lot of positive response and a lot.

John Dehlin [00:14:33] Where? Where and how?

Ruthie Robertson [00:14:35] As far as on the Facebook post itself.

John Dehlin [00:14:39] Okay, how many likes did you get?

Ruthie Robertson [00:14:42] I don't know. Let me go check.

John Dehlin [00:14:43] So you got a bunch of likes and comments?

Ruthie Robertson [00:14:47] Yeah, I can't get my thing to load, but yeah, it was pretty well received except for, you know, a couple people, but.

John Dehlin [00:14:55] And you're saying that you don't have students as friends on Facebook?

Ruthie Robertson [00:15:00] I didn't at that time. At the end of the semester, I once I told my students what happened. Tons of them add me on Facebook, but at the time, I didn't know.

John Dehlin [00:15:10] Okay, okay.

Ruthie Robertson [00:15:11] And so real quick, though, there's going to be a student who's going to claim that I had him on my Facebook because I had him on my Facebook at the beginning of the semester, but deleted him way before this post was made. So if he ever comes out and says, oh, she did have someone on her Facebook, he's lying. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:15:28] All right, all right.

Ruthie Robertson [00:15:29] Sorry. I just need to make sure that was cleared.

Reported to Administration and Forced Resignation

John Dehlin [00:15:34] So you made the post and you got some normal reactions. When did it become A matter of employment. How did that happen?

Ruthie Robertson [00:15:41] The very same night, that night that I made the post, I got a text from a faculty member that I had been reported to our department head. And then a little bit later, I got a text that I had been reported to Henry Eyring directly.

John Dehlin [00:15:58] I mean, can we just pause for a second? Isn't that super weird that a professor can make a personal statement of support on Facebook, and within hours, they're reported to their department head of their university? Right.

Ruthie Robertson [00:16:17] The person that reported me to the department head has been gunning for me for a while. So.

John Dehlin [00:16:23] Okay, so you know who it was that reported you?

Ruthie Robertson [00:16:25] I know who it was, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:26] Okay. And. And so how were you contacted? By text.

Ruthie Robertson [00:16:31] You said yes? Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:33] The department head texts you and says,

Ruthie Robertson [00:16:35] no, not even the department head didn't text me. A faculty member that I am close with texted me on behalf of the department head, because the department head knew that this faculty member could contact me faster than he could.

John Dehlin [00:16:49] All right, so the faculty. So the department head picks a faculty member and says, you need to reach out to Ruthie. What did that faculty member say to you?

Ruthie Robertson [00:16:58] They were like, hey, just so you know, your recent Facebook post got reported to Sean Johansen, who is the department head, and Sean told me that you'd also been reported to Henry Irene, who's

John Dehlin [00:17:14] the president of the university.

Ruthie Robertson [00:17:17] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:17:17] So is that the son of Henry Eyring, the apostle?

Ruthie Robertson [00:17:20] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:17:21] Okay, so now you're not only reported to your department head, but to the president of your university?

Ruthie Robertson [00:17:29] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:17:30] Okay. All right. So what was your. Like. What was your response to that? Were you freaking out? Were you worried? Were you sad? Were you excited?

Ruthie Robertson [00:17:42] I was really angry at first because I recently got in an argument with a close friend, but I thought was a close friend over the post, and so I thought it might have been him that reported me. So I was angry at him, but it wasn't him. But I just. I called my best friend and just started crying. I was just like, I think I'm gonna lose my job. And so I just cried for a good two hours.

John Dehlin [00:18:11] So you. You. You were worried about your job? You.

Ruthie Robertson [00:18:15] Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I knew the moment that I found out that because if I. It had just been the department head, I probably would have just gotten a really big lecture, slap on the wrist, and it would have been over. But because it went to the president, I was like, my job's done. I'm. I'm done.

John Dehlin [00:18:32] And how do you feel about your job? How do you value Your job.

Ruthie Robertson [00:18:35] Oh, I love it so much. I love teaching and I love my students. And my biggest concern was that they were going to fire me on the spot and that I wouldn't be able to finish the semester.

John Dehlin [00:18:45] How many weeks were left in the semester?

Ruthie Robertson [00:18:47] Oh, gosh, five.

John Dehlin [00:18:50] Like a month? A little over a month. Okay, okay. So you're worried. And is it. Is it. Is your livelihood largely or partially dependent?

Ruthie Robertson [00:19:00] My sole income.

John Dehlin [00:19:02] So teaching is your sole income right now?

Ruthie Robertson [00:19:04] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:05] Okay, so that's pretty significant. So, okay, so you cry to your friend, you're sad, you're worried. What happens next?

Ruthie Robertson [00:19:16] Got over crying, knew that I Or got contacted, that I was meeting with administration the next day.

John Dehlin [00:19:24] Who contacted you?

Ruthie Robertson [00:19:26] Same faculty member. He was like, hey, Rob Eaton. Who? He's the number three guy at the university. I don't know his exact title. I think it's like, assistant vice president or something.

John Dehlin [00:19:37] Okay.

Ruthie Robertson [00:19:37] So I'd be meeting with Rob Eaton, and then Eric Waltz, who is the dean of the College of Language and Letters. Sweetest man ever. I think he was more upset about me losing my job than I was at that point.

John Dehlin [00:19:51] So they call you in?

Ruthie Robertson [00:19:52] Yes. So they had him contact. Had that faculty member contact me. So I met with that faculty member and then Rob and Eric the following day. And so when.

John Dehlin [00:20:06] What was that meeting like?

Ruthie Robertson [00:20:09] The beginning of the meeting was actually really positive. It was a lot of Rob trying to get to know me, get my background, figure out why I felt the way I did about the issues, and just trying to figure out where I stood with the church and with a lot of other things, trying to make sure that, you know, like a temple

John Dehlin [00:20:31] recommend interview, kind of like, what do you believe?

Ruthie Robertson [00:20:33] No, no, not that. It was more of, like, you know, well, how can you hold these views and. And still believe in the church? Like, how do you reconcile it? So it was that. And then also.

John Dehlin [00:20:47] That's so weird in a place of employment. Like, okay, wait, how do you, like, your bosses are. Are assessing your testimony and asking you to justify and defend how you reconcile your spiritual and faith beliefs with your support of LGBT people under the context of evaluating whether or not you're going to be fired? I just.

Ruthie Robertson [00:21:12] Well. And he couldn't get past the thought process of mine, which is that the church and the gospel aren't the same thing. And for me, for a long time, especially after the November 15 policy, I had to separate the two. So there was the gospel and there was the church, and I cared about the gospel, and that's what mattered. And he just couldn't get past that in that discussion. So after, you know, he temple recommend interviews me or whatever, figures out how I reconcile things, it goes into a discussion with my classroom and, you know, trying to make sure that this stuff isn't happening in my classroom, which it wasn't. Like I said, I only mentioned LGBT when I told my students to respect one another, and when we were talking about human rights, which was relevant to the course. It's one of those sections we discuss. And then after that, the meeting kind of took, like, a negative turn. I wasn't able to, like, really get a word in. It became, you know, mansplaining, as I like to.

John Dehlin [00:22:15] What were they saying? What'd they say to you?

Ruthie Robertson [00:22:18] Was basically just trying to testimony me out that, you know, I was so young and, you know, I needed more time to think about these issues and pray about them more and study them more and come out on the right side, basically. So essentially, it was just a testimony me out of my beliefs. Tell me that I'm wrong in my interpretation of things and to pray about it and come back with the right answer.

John Dehlin [00:22:42] Okay, how'd that feel?

Ruthie Robertson [00:22:47] As a feminist, I was really pissed off because I felt like, number one, because of me being the only woman in the room that, you know, all these men, these priesthood holders, assumed that they were far more intelligent than I was, that they'd studied more than I had.

John Dehlin [00:23:02] Just because they're older.

Ruthie Robertson [00:23:04] Yeah, they're older and they're male. And so, like, my age and my gender, like, I felt like that was really playing into it, which made me really angry. And I just kind of became indignant because he kept saying, you know, pray about it and come back and. And change your mind about taking the post down. Because that was. That was the major thing was take the post down and.

John Dehlin [00:23:20] Okay, so they did make an explicit request.

Ruthie Robertson [00:23:23] Yes. They said, take the post down. He was like, do it. And I told him. I was like, especially after the whole mansplaining testimony me out of my beliefs, I was just like, you know what? No, like, I'm not doing it. Like, you. You obviously don't know what you're talking about.

John Dehlin [00:23:39] And so if you really valued your job, if you really needed the income, and you were really scared and sad, what made you so, you know, obstinate or determined to keep the post up? Especially when there's. How many two or three men? How many were there?

Ruthie Robertson [00:23:58] There were three.

John Dehlin [00:23:59] Especially when there's three powerful men. Like, I could imagine you feeling really intimidated.

Ruthie Robertson [00:24:07] Real quick. One of the men was totally on my side, supported me through the entire thing.

John Dehlin [00:24:12] And what was his role again?

Ruthie Robertson [00:24:14] He was. He's just a faculty member. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:24:17] In your department.

Ruthie Robertson [00:24:18] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:24:18] Okay. So a faculty member in your department was supportive. The other two were not. What kept you from being just intimidated by the power structure, needing the money, needing your job, and just saying, okay, I'll think about it, or okay, versus you, what it sounds like you did, you were kind of defiant a little bit.

Ruthie Robertson [00:24:37] Two things. The most important one being that this was a really important issue to me, that I wasn't going to be weak and back down on my beliefs simply because someone told me I need to. I've said it a couple of times that, you know, I refuse to be on the wrong side of history when it comes to this. What the church is doing is with lgbt, is repeating the ban on African Americans with the priesthood and the temple blessings, and I don't want to be the person that's on the wrong side of history for that. And so I refused to take it down for that reason and because I needed my friends that were LGBT to know that I wasn't part of that portion of the church, that that didn't represent me. So that was the biggest part of it. And the second part is just kind of my nature, which is very prideful. If you tell me to do something, I probably won't do it. If you tell me not to do something, I'll probably do it. And so the fact that these men were trying to essentially intimidate me into. To taking back my statement, I was just very resistant after that.

John Dehlin [00:26:00] Okay, so they kind of had you. They had you defensive and kind of a little bit angry, but you have to be simultaneously nervous because your job's gonna be at stake, right?

Ruthie Robertson [00:26:12] Mm, of course.

John Dehlin [00:26:15] But. But that you were willing at that point to lose your job over this issue.

Ruthie Robertson [00:26:20] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:26:22] Okay. All right. So anything about how the meeting ended?

Ruthie Robertson [00:26:28] Meeting ended with Rob basically saying, like, we'll give you a couple of days. We need to talk to the administration, figure out what we want to do, give you some time to think. And then we met a week later, and essentially the meeting went, you know, have you changed your mind, or are you going to take the post down? Said no. Had some more discussions about, you know, where I stood with the church, and pretty much a repeat of the last meeting. And up until this point, I still hadn't even heard what options they were considering. Sorry. I didn't know if I was being fired on the spot. I didn't know if I was being allowed to finish out the semester or if this issue was just going to be kind of let go. And part of me really thought it was going to be let go because I knew this was going to end up being a huge PR issue for the church if this got out. And as we can see, it got out. So I was really surprised that that ended up happening. But finally, at the end of the last meeting, I was like, you know, for financial reasons, I need to know, am I losing my job now at the end of the semester, or are you guys just letting this go?

John Dehlin [00:27:40] So you called a meeting or what?

Ruthie Robertson [00:27:43] No, they had called a meeting and I. So it was at the end of that last meeting that they had asked me to come in for that. I was finally like, I need to know what options you guys are looking at.

John Dehlin [00:27:52] Okay, so they call a meeting. How many weeks later?

Ruthie Robertson [00:27:54] It was a week later after the first one.

John Dehlin [00:27:56] Okay, so a week later, who's in the meeting this time?

Ruthie Robertson [00:27:59] It's me, Rob Eaton, and Eric Waltz.

John Dehlin [00:28:02] So just the two guys? You don't have the professor now supporting you?

Ruthie Robertson [00:28:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:07] And what they say in that meeting?

Ruthie Robertson [00:28:10] Essentially same thing. Just seeing if I changed my mind, if I was willing to take down the post. I had made edits to the post already to show them.

John Dehlin [00:28:19] Okay, so did they ask you to make edits? Was that your idea?

Ruthie Robertson [00:28:22] That was mine. Yeah, it was. I chose to make the edits because I wanted to, like, soften it up a bit to kind of please them in hopes of being able to keep my job.

John Dehlin [00:28:32] So what changes did you make to the document? What's the difference between version one and version two?

Ruthie Robertson [00:28:37] Okay, let me pull it up real quick.

John Dehlin [00:28:42] While you're pulling it up, I'll just read a couple comments.

Ruthie Robertson [00:28:45] Okay,

John Dehlin [00:28:47] let's see. Richard writes, the most common thread I have ever heard through all of the Mormon stories are that the church is very threatening towards its membership. How is this healthy or normal? That's a good question, Richard. How is it healthy or normal for a church to be threatening to its membership? Carrie wants to know, does she have a legal case? We will ask her about that later. Spencer writes, that's not pride. That's integrity to your values. Spencer, I agree. I wasn't trying to say she was being prideful. I was trying to ask the questions from their point of view. But obviously I agree with you that she is showing a lot of pride and integrity by doing what she's doing. So thanks for helping me clarify. Ruthie wants to know if you're going to pursue legal action. We will talk about this at the end. Angie writes, I love you for your courage and support. And at the same time, I was recently quoted as saying, I'm at a point in my life that I'm thankful for people who recognize my courage. But now I am in need of others to have courage in doing the right thing for me and for others. The delicate balance between our lives, religious liberties, and helping the bigotry that lives and inside so many find a path where their hearts soften, to the place where they can honor and respect that every one of us, every child of our heavenly father, has dignity and self worth that is equal among every human being, no more, no less. It is with humility, but determination that I now walk towards the Utah Supreme Court for transgender rights. I am grateful for your understanding and compassion for the LGBTQ community, and I'm sorry this has happened to you. So that's Angie.

Ruthie Robertson [00:30:21] Angie, that is so awesome. I'm so proud of you and totally 100% support.

John Dehlin [00:30:28] Beautiful. Okay. Do you have it ready?

Ruthie Robertson [00:30:31] Yeah. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:30:34] You can just summarize the differences if you want.

Ruthie Robertson [00:30:36] Yeah, it's only one portion. I just added something to it. So after I said that, like I was going to reveal some things I said, I'd like to preface this by saying that as an employee of byui, my views do not reflect the school or the LDS Church. These are my personal beliefs, and they have no place in my classroom, nor will they ever. Students often approach me and ask my opinion on certain matters of the Church, and I always diplomatically discourage the discussion and tell them to seek their own truths rather than a professor's truth. My students know that I expect respect and love for all, no matter their gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, etc. And that's the most I've said on the following subject and then continue with the rest of the post.

John Dehlin [00:31:17] So you volunteered to make those changes, thinking it might make a difference?

Ruthie Robertson [00:31:21] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:31:21] But they never asked you to make changes. They just asked you to take it down.

Ruthie Robertson [00:31:25] Yeah.

The Termination Meetings and Their Aftermath

John Dehlin [00:31:25] Okay, so you're in that second meeting and finish telling us what happened.

Ruthie Robertson [00:31:34] So basically it was just a repeat of the first one and me explaining the edits that I made and once again, defending my case that, you know, never talked about these things in my classroom, didn't plan to. And then finally getting to the end, I was like, I need to know what options we're looking at. And he told me, you know, we're either firing you right now or we're gonna let you Finish this semester. And that's it? That's the only options? There was no option of saving my job, so.

John Dehlin [00:32:05] Wow. How was that for you?

Ruthie Robertson [00:32:09] It sucked. Um, but I. I was almost expecting it. I had prepared myself for that, so.

John Dehlin [00:32:17] And you didn't want to be fired before the semester ended, so.

Ruthie Robertson [00:32:21] Yeah, and that's why I made the edits. I was. The entire time I was fighting to finish the semester because I didn't want my students to be hurt by this. I didn't want mid semester my students to have a new professor or, or whatever it was. So my goal was protect the students, try and finish out the semester with them.

John Dehlin [00:32:45] So how'd that second meeting end?

Ruthie Robertson [00:32:49] He said that he was gonna go speak with the president and then the vice president and come to a decision and they'd call me and let me know. And then I found out two days later that they were going to let me finish out the semester.

John Dehlin [00:33:06] And did they tell you then you won't be continuing as a professor after that?

Ruthie Robertson [00:33:11] Yeah, that it was over after that. My contracts that I had already had done were terminated.

John Dehlin [00:33:19] Did they say that in the email or through a phone call or what?

Ruthie Robertson [00:33:22] So they were really good about it. They didn't do anything paper wise. Everything was in person or over phone. And so it was over phone that I found out like you're. Well, in the last meeting it was, you know, there's no hope of you continuing after this semester. You're done after the semester no matter what. But we just have to decide if we fire you mid semester or not.

John Dehlin [00:33:44] Okay. But then later, how is it made official that you were fired?

Ruthie Robertson [00:33:49] You know, I'm still listed as having classes on byu, Idaho. If you go on there. I'm pretty sure, unless I've taken it down by now. But as of yesterday, I was still listed as having classes for the fall. Yep, fall and winter.

John Dehlin [00:34:03] But did you say someone else called you after and told you you would no longer have a job? Who was that?

Ruthie Robertson [00:34:09] It was Eric. They had Eric Waltz call me the college dean.

John Dehlin [00:34:13] And what did he say?

Ruthie Robertson [00:34:16] Eric is such a sweet man. He was so upset about the way this happened. He didn't want me let go. He actually almost started crying during our last meeting and was really supportive. So he called me and he was like, hey, Ruthie, this is Eric Waltz. I have some good news for you.

John Dehlin [00:34:35] Good news?

Ruthie Robertson [00:34:36] Yeah. He's like, I have some good news for you. I just got the word they're gonna let you finish out the semester and then you're Done. And I was like, well, it's kind of good news. Thanks.

John Dehlin [00:34:48] Yeah. So, okay. And what did you say to him?

Ruthie Robertson [00:34:54] I just said, you know, thanks so much for letting me know, Eric. And then he went on to tell me how much he appreciated me and admired me and was just very complimentary and supportive and so.

John Dehlin [00:35:08] So what was that like to know you had been terminated for expressing your views on Facebook?

Ruthie Robertson [00:35:18] It sucked. It really did. But like I said, I had prepared myself for it. Like, I, I knew it was coming and I was, I was ready and willing. I, you know, it's. It was for something that was worth it, you know? Yeah. Sucks losing my job, but it would also suck to, you know, give up my integrity and take back those views. Those statements.

John Dehlin [00:35:44] Were you, Were you. I mean, can you make a living as an adjunct professor? Were you planning on doing this for a long time? Like, what were your long term plans?

Ruthie Robertson [00:35:52] So my long term plan was to do an ad, be an adjunct, and then work.

John Dehlin [00:35:58] For how long?

Ruthie Robertson [00:35:59] Until I finished my master's. And then after I finished my master's, I wanted to try and get a full time gig at the school.

John Dehlin [00:36:06] Are you enrolled in a master's program now?

Ruthie Robertson [00:36:09] Yeah, so I have two master's programs that I've been accepted to. So.

John Dehlin [00:36:14] Which ones?

Ruthie Robertson [00:36:16] Illinois University. I'm accepted into a political science master's program. And then Boise State, I'm accepted into a special education program.

John Dehlin [00:36:26] And those are distance. Distance degrees, yes.

Ruthie Robertson [00:36:29] They're both online. After all of this, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm still like, I can still register for the classes if I decide to, but I don't really know what I'm doing at this point. Point. And so it's like, okay, if I don't have a job, there's no point in going into more debt until I figure out what I want to do.

John Dehlin [00:36:46] So you were going to stay at byu, Idaho, have that be how you funded your master's graduate work?

Ruthie Robertson [00:36:56] Not how I funded it. It would have been how I paid my bills and I would have done loans.

John Dehlin [00:37:00] That's what I mean. That's what I mean. Just paid for your living expenses and stuff.

Ruthie Robertson [00:37:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:05] Okay. But now that you've been fired, that puts in jeopardy your. Your ability to start grad school in the fall. Correct. Because you don't want to. You don't want to go into that much debt. And now you don't have a job.

Ruthie Robertson [00:37:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:19] Okay. That's really heartbreaking. I'm feeling really sad for you.

Ruthie Robertson [00:37:23] It sucks. Yep, it does.

John Dehlin [00:37:28] I mean, do you have to move out of your apartment now or do you have to move home? Like, how are you going to afford to survive?

Ruthie Robertson [00:37:35] I am figuring things out right now. I still got two paychecks left from the school, hoping they don't take them away because of all of this. But with that, I can still pay my rent for the next two months, and I work part time at a bar in town that's like just a mile away from me, which apparently has really bothered a lot of people with this story. I don't know why, but. So right now I'm doing that to make some money job searching, trying to find something. I think my parents want me to move back home, but I don't think that would be very good for me. I've been on my own too long to want to be back living with parents.

John Dehlin [00:38:27] Okay, so are your parents believers in the church? Are they Orthodox?

Ruthie Robertson [00:38:31] My entire family is active lds.

John Dehlin [00:38:34] And where. Where do they live?

Ruthie Robertson [00:38:37] So my parents and my two brothers and their spouses live in Virginia, and then my sister lives with her husband in Pocatello.

John Dehlin [00:38:44] So they want you to move back home to Virginia?

Ruthie Robertson [00:38:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:47] Okay. Okay. So let's just talk about the legalities of this. There's somebody who wrote that your job. The jobs are at will. I'm not a lawyer, but, you know, there certainly are jobs that are. Basically, we can fire you at any time for whatever reason we want to.

Ruthie Robertson [00:39:10] And Idaho is an at will state, I think.

John Dehlin [00:39:13] Yeah. So, I mean, they're in their legal rights to fire you for any reason. Is that true?

Ruthie Robertson [00:39:20] I guess I don't really know a whole lot about the legal part of it. I know as a private university that there's really almost no grounds for a legal suit against them. The only way I can imagine legal standing is if they had fired me for being LGBT rather than supporting. That's the only way I can think of them having or having some kind of legal ground.

John Dehlin [00:39:49] Julie writes, I'm willing to guess the BYU has plenty of verbiage in her contract that supports their choice to fire her, or at least that protects them from it. Do you think. Do you think Julie's right?

Ruthie Robertson [00:40:02] Yeah, from my experience, yes. So the only professors that are really safe from being fired are those who have cfs. So at BYU Idaho, you don't have tenure. You get cfs, and that basically means that they have to have good cause to be able to fire you. They can't just fire you because maybe students don't like you. They can't fire you because of some statement you've made or whatever. I don't think.

John Dehlin [00:40:30] Okay, right. So, but in summary, are you planning on suing them at all?

Going Public and Speaking with the Media

Ruthie Robertson [00:40:43] No, that's not my plan. It's not viable. It's not the outcome I want. For me, this isn't about attacking the school. This isn't about attacking the church. This is about trying to bring about change and to make people realize that the school has this, you know, facade of. And the church has this facade of being accepting and loving and tolerant of all kinds of people, specifically lgbt, but obviously not from my LGBT friends experiences, from my experiences, from expressing personal opinions. Obviously they don't have this tolerance for LGBT or anything contrary to what they believe. So my goal is to make that known and for them to hopefully look towards change.

John Dehlin [00:41:37] Okay, so you're doing this as sort of an act of civil disobedience or occupational disobedience and hopes that it'll lead

Ruthie Robertson [00:41:46] towards change, I guess. Okay, that's a way to put it.

John Dehlin [00:41:50] So are you going to stay in Rexburg or are you going to leave? I don't know what I'm doing with

Ruthie Robertson [00:41:55] my life right now, John.

John Dehlin [00:41:57] That's super frustrating.

Ruthie Robertson [00:41:59] It is.

John Dehlin [00:42:00] How has all this affected your faith in the church? Or has it, like, are you comfortable? Are you safe to talk about that right now?

Ruthie Robertson [00:42:08] It's really disappointed me a lot. You know, like I said, I fought for so long to find my place in the church with all my views that are so different from it. And for me, it became all about, you know, just my personal connection with Christ, my own connection there, rather than, you know, having a connection through an organization, through a priesthood holder, it was just me, Christ, and that's. That's all that mattered. And so with this organization now all of a sudden attacking me and saying that me fighting, as long as I have to stay, I shouldn't be here. Basically, that's kind of what I. What I feel like I've been told is that I don't belong, that I'm not wanted, that my perspective, my views, my voice aren't wanted. And so it's definitely shaken me a lot as far as that.

John Dehlin [00:43:08] Yeah. So you're saying you were able to separate the church from the gospel, but it's getting harder and harder.

Ruthie Robertson [00:43:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:15] Have you, you know, have you heard of things like the CES letter and, you know, the. The various, you know, problems that the Church of Truth Claims with its history, the polygamy, the polyandry, the historical. The problems with the historical Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham and stuff.

Ruthie Robertson [00:43:33] Yeah, so I've read the CES letter, I've read Rough Stone Rolling, no man Knows My history. I also read a book, I can't remember the exact title, but it talks about masonry and the early temple rituals and stuff. Read a lot of stuff on that. Listened to so many of your podcasts and then went over to Zelf on the Shelf for a good laugh because there's stuff a little more light hearted and gives you a laugh over some things. But yeah, I've definitely delved into a lot of that and definitely a lot of troublesome stuff. And for me, kind of shows that this is a trend with the LGBT stuff. This isn't something new. This isn't something new that the church has done. It's something that it's done in the past and it's changed in the past. And you would think and hope that we'd learn from those mistakes. And so part of me really, really wants to stay and to hope that it makes that change with LGBT the way it did with African Americans and the priesthood ban. But I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:44:47] Yeah, okay. As far as. Let's see. So what has it been like since, you know, were you concerned about talking to reporters? It seems like you waited until the semester ended before you spoke up to somebody. Is that right?

Ruthie Robertson [00:45:12] Yeah, I really wanted to wait till the semester was over because one, I didn't want the school to change their mind and fire me mid semester, and two, I didn't want anything to be, you know, interfering with my classroom. I didn't want to harm my students personally and I don't want to harm their education at all. So that was the most important thing to me, was protecting my students, basically. And so I didn't even reach out to a reporter that it wasn't me. What happened was on the last day of my class, right before I released my students, you know, I told them I was like, hey, thanks so much for a great semester. I'm really glad you guys were my last set of students at byui. And so I hadn't planned on telling them everything, but then they all started asking questions and so I finally kind of told them what happened and they got really upset and a big portion of them stayed behind and talked to me for good 30, 40 minutes to an hour about a lot of stuff. And one particular student posted on Reddit about what happened, so he posted about it on the ex Mormon sub Reddit and I guess Ryan McKnight caught hold of it and Ryan contacted my student who was like, hey, if you have your professor's contact information, give her my number. Like, I think this could be a good story if she's interested. And so I talked to Ryan and, you know, he was like, I want this to go public, but it's only gonna work if you put your name on it. Are you willing to do that? And so I thought about it, talked to a good friend, and I was like, you know, if I do this, is this gonna be a really negative thing, or can this have the chance to affect change and to have some positive effect on the Mormon culture? And so we came to the conclusion that, like, yeah, it's gonna have some negative backlash, but there's the potential for this being big and this bringing about change. And so I decided to tell Ryan, yeah, I'm willing to talk. And so I think the first people he contacted, he contacted the Salt Lake Tribune, kutv, New York Times, and Washington Post. And so KUTV was the first one to kind of like pick it up and then just spread from there.

John Dehlin [00:47:37] So who, what, what reporters have you spoken with or what news outlets have you spoken with?

Ruthie Robertson [00:47:42] So many. I was. So yesterday was when it all blew up because of KUTV. From the time I woke up till like 3 o' clock in the morning last night, or I guess this morning was on the phone with someone or texting with someone about something. It was just absolutely insane.

John Dehlin [00:48:01] List the outlets that you've spoken with, if you can.

Ruthie Robertson [00:48:03] The ones that I've spoken with have been Washington Post, Salt Lake Tribune, KUTV, Channel 8 in Idaho, East Idaho News, the Standard Journal in Rexburg, the scroll at BYUI Go.

John Dehlin [00:48:25] Scroll? Yeah,

Ruthie Robertson [00:48:30] crud. There's a radio host that I'm supposed to be speaking with here in Idaho tomorrow. CNN contacted me. I'm supposed to be talking to them. Someone from abc, I think. That's all I can remember.

John Dehlin [00:48:48] That's awesome. Would you ever thought this would be a national or maybe even international story?

Ruthie Robertson [00:48:53] Not at all. I thought, like, I figured, you know, it'd probably pick up in Idaho and Utah and then it'd be about it. And then all of a sudden, Washington Post is calling me and I'm like, what the heck? So, yeah, definitely didn't think it was gonna get this big.

John Dehlin [00:49:09] Yeah, it's become a big story. What's been the reaction of friends and family and students now that the story's really blown up?

Ruthie Robertson [00:49:20] Actually, you know, I've been really. It's been really heartwarming with my students. There are a couple who don't like me, and that's fine, whatever. But even I had this one student. He is so amazing. Colton, if you're listening, Colton, love you. But Colton is pretty conservative, like libertarian, hardcore conservative, and I'm way to the left. But the entire semester he showed nothing but respect. He was always interested in my views on things. We had great discussions and he made a post the other night. I guess he had a couple of my other students on his Facebook that he saw kind of talking poorly about me. And he made a post saying that, you know, while he doesn't agree with a lot of my views and he doesn't agree with my stance on lgbt, he's supportive of the fact that I should be able to speak my mind. He's upset with the university and the decision they made. I had another student who, the day of, when I told him what happened, he almost wrote a letter to President Eyring because he felt like students free speech and free thought was now under threat. He felt like as a student he couldn't think freely without being punished for it and if he disagreed or didn't follow the norm, that he would be harmed. So for the most part, my students have been really supportive and great and just love them so much. As far as family, not exactly supportive, actually. I think my sister, I know she was watching the earlier part of this podcast because she was texting me, telling me to stop playing with my hair. So I know she was watching. I don't know if she still is. While she doesn't agree with me, she's. The fact that she would have been watching this podcast means a lot, but my family isn't really happy with the fact that I've kind of gone public with this. I think my mom said something along the lines of, by going public with this, I'm helping to attack the church and destroying the work of Christ. Christ,

John Dehlin [00:51:36] which Christ needs to strengthen up if this newspaper story is challenging his word.

Ruthie Robertson [00:51:44] So it was pretty hurtful to hear that. But, you know, in my mind I'm helping with. With Christ's message of acceptance and love. And we all have our own different version of him, so, you know, it's fine. So family, not so supportive, but also not attacking me, which is good.

John Dehlin [00:52:04] Do you think that, do you think that. What do you think the impact is of the BYU Idaho student body? Do you think the students are paying attention? Do you think they know who you are?

Ruthie Robertson [00:52:16] Yeah, the students are definitely paying attention. I think there's mixed responses. There are students who would think, you know, I deserve to lose my job, That I was asking for it or that I purposely lost my job, that I made that post as a cry for help, to have them fire me or something because I didn't want my job anymore. I've actually read comments that said that. That I purposely wanted to lose my job. But anyway. But there's a large majority of students that are really bothered by the fact that, you know, a personal opinion expressed privately lost someone their job, and so now they feel like they can't have their own thoughts. They can't be free to be who they are. There have been LGBT students that have messaged me and said that they're scared that the school's gonna start an attack on lgbt, that they won't be able to be openly gay, even if they're not acting on it. They won't be able to be honest to who they are, that the school would persecute them, that the student body would persecute them or whatever it might be. So I definitely think they're paying attention. They're listening.

John Dehlin [00:53:28] And what if you had to estimate the percentage of BYUI students that are LGBT affirming or supportive? I know it's probably impossible, but is it 5%? Is it 50%? Do you even have an idea?

Ruthie Robertson [00:53:41] So LGBT themselves or LGBT allies?

John Dehlin [00:53:44] LGBT affirming. So allies or LGBT themselves. Yeah. Who disagree with the church's policies, basically.

Ruthie Robertson [00:53:54] Honestly, I'd estimate it somewhere around 75% disagree. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:00] What about faculty?

Ruthie Robertson [00:54:01] It's our general. What.

John Dehlin [00:54:03] What about faculty?

Ruthie Robertson [00:54:05] I don't have a whole lot of experience with faculty outside of my department, but if it comes to the social sciences department, I'd say you're looking somewhere around 75% as well that don't agree with the policy. Not as extreme as I am where I'm saying homosexuality isn't a sin, but definitely high percentage don't agree with the policy.

John Dehlin [00:54:29] Okay.

Ruthie Robertson [00:54:30] Every professor I've interacted with in my program didn't agree with the policy.

John Dehlin [00:54:35] So that means there's going to be a lot of BYU students and faculty that are really freaked out right now, because if you're getting kicked out, it's going to put a chill on any faculty member ever wanting to show even support to students privately. And then, of course, there are all these students that are like, wow, if they're firing a professor for just being LGBT affirming, you know, I need to be scared and quiet. I mean, what a chill that seems like it's going to be putting over a campus. Right?

Ruthie Robertson [00:55:07] Yeah,

John Dehlin [00:55:09] that's sad. All right, so in terms of national and international coverage, I guess you're going to keep doing stories about this until it runs the news cycle. I wonder, do you think that there's going to be any long term positive change come out of this, or could it cause backlash and make actually things worse for LGBT people? Have you thought about that?

Lasting Impact and Advice for Others

Ruthie Robertson [00:55:42] I think it has a potential to be. To go both ways. 50. 50. I think, like what you mentioned that, you know, people are now going to be scared to speak up. So there's two ways that if they're a lot like me, if something like this happened to someone else and I was in response to it because I'm a annoying human being, I'm going to do exactly what someone tells me not to do. So I wouldn't be fearful. I would just push back. That instead of cowering and hiding back like, okay, you know what? No, this isn't okay. I'm gonna push more and more and more. So I think that it has the potential for that, that people are now gonna speak up more. People are gonna be more courageous and be open about how they feel. And I think there's so many people that are trying to affect change with this, especially with Christian religions trying to make more acceptance available.

John Dehlin [00:56:40] So

Ruthie Robertson [00:56:42] I think it will have a positive effect in the end. Sorry, off track, but I think it will have a positive effect. I think that people will start to stand up more.

John Dehlin [00:56:52] Nice. So is that what would you like to see people do? For those who are listening, for those who agree with your stance, who maybe are inspired by what you did or saddened, what would your call be to people paying attention?

Ruthie Robertson [00:57:06] Just don't be scared. I've received so many messages since this story got out of people saying, you know, I felt the exact same way, but I've always been scared to, you know, let people know. And I'm so glad you stood up. Just stand up. Just tell people how you feel, because there's so many more people that feel the same way you do than those that don't. And I think back to Savannah and how brave she was getting up in church and bearing her testimony about how Heavenly Father made her the way she is, that her sexuality is in a sin, that that's how she is. Just be open and honest. If you cower and hide, nothing is ever. And I'm not saying people like you're cowards or anything. I'm saying if you don't let yourself be authentic, nothing's gonna change. The church will stay the same because they'll think, oh, you know, everyone that's leaving is the problem and they're the ones that support these issues. Be a member in good standing, stay in the church and then try to affect change. That's what has to happen is people within the church have to stand up and admit and own up to their beliefs so that change can happen.

John Dehlin [00:58:27] I love it. All right, so let's go to some of the comments and questions on the page. We're so grateful that we still got over 100 people who have been able to tune into this episode. So let's just go through a couple comments and maybe you can respond. Tom writes, you probably do not have a legal case because you're not well employed, but the administrators seem to be using Unrighteous dominion as per Doctrine and Covenants 121. What would you say about that? Probably true Unrighteous dominion?

Ruthie Robertson [00:58:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:58:57] Why?

Ruthie Robertson [00:58:59] I don't maybe it's just my negative view of some priesthood leaders. The reason they gave for firing me. It was twisting everything, essentially telling me that my personal views that were outside of my classroom were undermining my students testimonies. So yeah, okay.

John Dehlin [00:59:19] Aurora writes. So I'm guessing you didn't go home and pray. BYU is a religious school, a private religious school. They have every right to ask you to take down social media posts, know what you're talking about in your class, and know where you stand in your faith. Just saying. What would you say to Aurora that says BYU has this right? It's a private religious school. You should have known what you were doing and it's your fault.

Ruthie Robertson [00:59:48] Aurora, I've gotten plenty of messages just like that from tons of other people. But what everyone seems to be missing is that this was never in my classroom, that my private opinions didn't come into my classroom, that I never taught anti doctrine as some people are claiming I have. But yeah, if I was teaching this stuff in my classroom, university totally had the right to to fire me because at that point I would have been undermining their testimonies. But since this was my private Facebook and it didn't have any of my students, no, I don't think they had the right to do that. That's limiting my own need to think to have an opinion. So yeah, no, I didn't go back and pray because I didn't need to. I've been praying and going to the temple for months trying to make my decision on how I felt about same sex relationships in the church. I did plenty of praying. I did plenty of fasting so many temple trips and came to this conclusion. So I didn't need some other guy to tell me to go and pray more about something that I already had confirmed by Heavenly Father. Thank you for your concern. That got a little salty. I'm sorry.

John Dehlin [01:01:01] No worries. Randy writes, the LGB topic is getting old. Not that it's unimportant, just that banging your LGBT supporting head against a wall is not that smart. The wall is made of stone and isn't going to change. Why keep banging your head? Is the LGBT end game to make the church a variation of Unitarian Universalists? What would you say to Randy?

Ruthie Robertson [01:01:24] I'm sorry, Randy, have you ever heard of the civil rights movement? Would you say that to Martin Luther King Jr. Because that's pretty much what they were facing with African Americans trying to get civil rights. Is banging their head against a stone wall? That was assumed. It's not a stone wall. It never has been and it never will be.

Listener Responses and Faculty Solidarity

John Dehlin [01:01:40] All right. Laurie writes that when she was a BYU Idaho teacher, she wore her rainbow Mama Dragon jewelry every single day, so LGBT students knew that she was safe. She would walk across the street from campus to help them, talk to them, and give them whatever it was they may need. So it sounds like there are professors, like you say, at BYU Idaho who want to be a helpful part of the solution, but they have to kind of be secret about it.

Ruthie Robertson [01:02:10] Yeah. No, that's so awesome, Lori. And what you're doing is fantastic. They need a safe space. They need someone they can trust, someone they can talk to. And I'm glad that there are people on campus there for them.

John Dehlin [01:02:25] Helena writes, ruthie, you should look into teaching English to Chinese kids online. They pay well and you can do the hours during school. So Helen is trying to give you some job advice. She says a way to go for standing up for what you believe. Sorry this has happened to you.

Ruthie Robertson [01:02:42] Awesome. Thanks so much, Helen. I'll look into that.

John Dehlin [01:02:46] Katie is a BYU Idaho student, and she writes, they say that there is the church and then there is the doctrine. But it gets pretty hard to keep the two separate in spaces where those who administer the doctrine say that there's no room at the table unless people are also willing to conform to the church. Hardbreaking and damaging to too many people. So Katie's saying it's hard to keep those things separate.

Ruthie Robertson [01:03:08] It's getting harder and harder. Definitely.

John Dehlin [01:03:12] Juliana says, I'm curious how you can teach at a university without having anything beyond a bachelor's degree. That does call into question. Maybe BYU Idaho's not that you're not brilliant, but that, like, don't universities usually have Master or PhD level students teaching? What would you say to that?

Ruthie Robertson [01:03:29] So that's actually come under question quite a bit. So, number one, I was an extremely intelligent student when it came to international relations. I had the confidence of the entire political science department who made the decision to hire me. I usually, I think one of the rules for adjunct is like, you have to be enrolled in a master's program. And so I was. I was enrolled in a master's program for it. But essentially I got the job because I was qualified, that I knew what I was doing, I knew what I was teaching. I essentially recreated a portion of that class on my own for my internship. So, yeah, with having a bachelor's, a lot of people assume that I'm unqualified and that I was a bad teacher or whatever. Go talk to my students. A majority of them, there's one or two that don't like me that would probably say negative things, but a majority of them would say that they learned so much from me, more than they have with a lot of other professors, and that they were able to actually be engaged and connect because of my age.

John Dehlin [01:04:40] So I love it. Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like your students really loved and valued what you did. Have any faculty reached out in support? Is a question for Michael.

Ruthie Robertson [01:04:52] Yes, Only a couple of them have directly contacted me, but they have supported me like by talking to other faculty members that have communicated that to me. So majority of my department is really upset with the fact that I was let go and has shown immense support. And yeah, so it's been great.

John Dehlin [01:05:14] Leslie writes that WDBJ News in Roanoke has picked up the story, so it is reaching Roanoke.

Ruthie Robertson [01:05:21] Whoa.

John Dehlin [01:05:23] Richard Wright's agency is under threat in the Mormon Church in the BYU Idaho. Katie writes back. I think many of us as students worry about this. We did before now, more so now. So it sounds like this is making potentially BYU Idaho students feel a little bit less safe. Ned writes, thank you for being so brave. The hardest thing is when your family isn't fully supportive. Many of us have been in similar situations, but not as public as yours. Thank you for being a strength to all of us, standing up for your beliefs and not caving to social or family pressure. Much love. So love from Ned. Lawrence is surprised that 75% of students and faculty are LGBT affirming at BYU Idaho. What do you think about that? That Lawrence is surprised?

Ruthie Robertson [01:06:11] I'm making a rough estimate. It's based on my Interactions. So it's based on my interactions with people, my knowledge of previous students, current students, and also just general trend of millennials. We're a much more tolerant and accepting generation and were the majority of what the church is losing because of their intolerance to things like lgbt.

John Dehlin [01:06:36] So, yeah, interesting. Yeah. It's just a mess to make a

Ruthie Robertson [01:06:40] lot higher than people think because a lot of people just kind of keep quiet about it because they know that it's not a good opinion for them to have.

John Dehlin [01:06:47] It's just kind of crazy how scared people are and how much control the church has in silencing people. That's kind of crazy.

Ruthie Robertson [01:06:56] Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm waiting for contact from my stake president to get excommunicated for all of this. We'll see.

John Dehlin [01:07:03] I hope that doesn't happen. Tom writes, colleges need to be places that encourage free thought and discussion. It is just wrong for byu Idaho, all state institution of higher learning to discourage free thought as it is for liberal fascist colleges to suppress conservative and libertarian ideas. Yeah, let's see. Katie writes, this is so true. But it is also important for people to understand that it's okay to leave when it becomes too toxic for them. I have to wrap up and so I just want to. Lindsey writes, I love your confidence. Mark writes, gay rights or human rights, it's worth continuing to support no matter how hard the fight. After the leaked videos from the quorum of the 12 meetings, we know that the church patriarchy is afraid of. Mark writes, the gays. All right, so this has been a wonderful discussion. I'm so grateful you were able to share with us your story. Ruthie, any final things you want to say to our audience? To BYU Idaho, just in closing,

Closing Reflections and Farewell

Ruthie Robertson [01:08:13] just keep on fighting. Whatever you believe in, stand up for it. Stand up for what's right and just have the courage to do it. Sometimes the consequences really suck, like losing your job, but it makes an effect and people notice. So do what you can.

John Dehlin [01:08:32] Well, we're all grateful for your courage, for you bringing an important spotlight to the story. And most importantly, our hearts go out to you that you've lost your job. And we really hope, Ruthie, that you're able to find a good job and you can turn this into this lemon in the lemonade as people realize the sacrifice you've made and the courage you've shown. Hopefully it leads to better jobs and better support for you and your life.

Ruthie Robertson [01:08:58] Yeah. Thank you so much, John.

John Dehlin [01:09:01] All right, Ruthie, check out. Please keep in touch and let us know if there's anything we can do to help you out. All right.

Ruthie Robertson [01:09:08] Okay. Thank you so much to everyone for watching and thank you, John, for being willing to do this interview.

John Dehlin [01:09:14] My pleasure. All right, Ruthie, take care. Thanks to everyone who joined us online. It was great to have you. Sorry we had to split this up into two parts. Thanks to everyone who supports Mormon Stories. Your donations make this possible. Please donate to MormonStories.org if you don't already go to MormonStories.org, click on the Donate button. Just 10 or $20 a month can keep us afloat. Thanks to Cody Layton and Amy Grubbs who are on the OSF staff along with the OSF board that make all this possible. And please continue tuning in to Mormon Stories. It's great to have you guys and we'll talk to everyone soon. Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org thank you very much.

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