Introduction and Miniseries Recap

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast, LDS Discussions) Edition. I am John Dehlin, your host for today. Today we are covering a very important topic in a series. Today we're covering part two of our discussion of Joseph Smith's plural marriage proposals. It's, I believe, part four in our series on polygamy. Within this broader conversation with Mike from LDS discussions about Mormon Church truth claims to just give you a couple house cleaning items, the essay that we're going to be covering comes from this amazing website, LDS discussions.com that our friend Mike has put together where he discusses and tries, in the most dispassionate and neutral way possible, tries to provide evidence regarding Mormon's Church truth claims. The essay for today can be found@ LDSDiscussions.com polygamy proposals. Again, this is part two on this topic. We also just want to remind everyone that if you want to watch or listen to the LDS Discussions) series independent of the Mormon Stories podcast feed, you can go to Spotify where you can listen to and or view all of these LDS discussions episodes in sequence there. You can also go to the Mormon Stories Podcast YouTube channel. And under the playlist LDS Discussions), you can see the videos all there listed in sequence, which is up to episode number 27, I believe. And so that's what we're here to do today. And we've got back with us, Mike. Hey, Mike. Welcome back.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:01:36] How's it going, everyone? It's good to be back.

John Dehlin [00:01:38] Thanks for joining us, Mike.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:01:40] Thanks.

John Dehlin [00:01:41] And we're super grateful to have Alicia back with us as well, who is known as faith unraveled on TikTok. Welcome back, Alicia.

Alicia (faith unraveled) [00:01:50] Great to see you guys. Thanks for having me.

John Dehlin [00:01:52] And Alicia, you were here in Utah just last week and we got to hang out a little bit more. That was fun.

Alicia (faith unraveled) [00:01:57] Yeah. Sorry we didn't see you, Mike.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:02:00] Yeah, I'm not. I've never been to Utah. How about that?

John Dehlin [00:02:03] That's a bad thing. We gotta fix that. We gotta fix that.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:02:05] I know it looks beautiful, but I've never been out there, so one day I will get out there.

Alicia (faith unraveled) [00:02:10] Well, we'll definitely plan a trip out if you're gonna be there, Mike.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:02:13] Yeah, I want to. It looks beautiful. I just, I've never, for whatever reason, just never made my way out. Actually, as a quick side note, we were on a vacation there when I was a kid. My dad had a work trip there. So we drove and we got our car broke down in Nebraska and it was during Buffalo Bill days and it was like 110 degrees outside. And it was. We had a Subaru, so they couldn't get it fixed for like 4 days. So by the time they got it fixed, we just went back home. So I was supposed to go to Utah. Never made it. So there you go. It wasn't meant to be at the time, I guess.

John Dehlin [00:02:42] We're bringing you here, brother. We're going to bring you here soon.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:02:44] One day I'll get there.

Alicia (faith unraveled) [00:02:45] So many great people in Utah. That's such great community there. I love it.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:02:51] It looks great.

John Dehlin [00:02:53] All right, so let's go ahead and jump in with a recap of the miniseries on polygamy so far. Mike, take it away.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:03:01] Yeah. So originally we had five episodes planned, and now we've upped it to six because this episode needed to be split into two. Just because we wanted to make sure we covered some of these accounts with enough detail to make them give enough context on them. So we wanted to split it. So now we have six episodes. So this is now four out of six. In our previous three episodes, we covered kind of the timeline of Joseph Smith's polygamy, how that impacts the production of DNC132, because that is not written until 1843, which is actually going to be after pretty much every account we're covering in these two episodes that we're doing right now. We looked at how the 1831 revelation on polygamy that the church kind of claims as when this, when DNC132 is first, first given. We looked at what it actually entailed and why it has absolutely nothing to do with what we now have as DNC132, but was instead a claimed revelation from Joseph Smith that the men were to take the Native American women as wives and concubines in order to make their children white and delightsome. Those are the actual words. I'm not trying to be pejorative there. We talked about how Joseph Smith produced the entirety of DNC132 in one sitting without the help of even claiming to use the peep slash seer stone, even though Hyram had requested Joseph use it, and just how important that that tidbit is to Joseph's ability to create Scripture without the use of any aids and to do it in a short time span. Kind of a nod back to our Book of Mormon authorship episode. We look, we looked at the wording of DNC132 and the implications it has of for the implications that the revelation has for believing members today. Mixed faith marriages and how Joseph Smith broke most of Those rules in DNC132 in the accounts we're talking about in these episodes. And so now in our last episode, we began talking about some of the polygamous and polyandrust proposals that Joseph Smith had made to his followers, who were typically younger girls that were living in his household, and other things that we covered as far as some of the patterns.

John Dehlin [00:05:10] And Alicia, did you want to make a comment in response to this slide?

D&C 132, Consent, and Coercion in Plural Marriage

Alicia (faith unraveled) [00:05:14] Yeah. So you mentioned the wording of DNC132, and I know we spoke about this in detail a couple of weeks ago. So if you haven't listened to the episode on DNC132, that one is really good. Goes into a lot of detail. And dissecting that section of Scripture, there's some very specific language used in that section that I think is really relevant to our episode today. So I just wanted to cover a couple of things from DNC 132, if that's okay, please. So there's three words that I want to talk about. So the first one is the word given in this case used to describe how women or girls are moved through the system of plural marriage, which to me really indicates the role that women play in the new and everlasting covenant, which is basically property. And this kind of verbiage is used in multiple places throughout DNC 132 and is also used by the women themselves as they reflect back on their experiences in becoming plural wives. And I think this is why it's super important to just kind of reflect on this before we dig into our episode today, because they will often say later, like giving their testimony about plural marriage, that they were given by God to the person, or in the case of, like, the Partridge Sisters or the Lawrence Sisters, that they were given to Joseph by Emma. And not only does it read that these women will be given, but that Joseph will have the power to give women to other men because of his priesthood power. So in verse 44 of DNC 132, it says, I reveal it unto you, my servant Joseph. Then shall you have power by the power of the holy priesthood to take her and. And give her unto him that hath not committed adultery, but hath been faithful, for he shall be made ruler over many. So everyone will draw their own conclusions here. But in my mind, this is consistent with our modern definition of trafficking. Right. So here's why I think this is important to talk about before today's episode from a faithful perspective. The perspective of A believing member. Often people will say, well, the women had a testimony of plural marriage. Look, they talked about it later in their life at Helen's, you know, writings and exponent. She talks about, you know, this principle and how she, you know, it was commanded by God. But if we're going to take that perspective, we also really have to accept this notion that they, as women felt that they were subject to the priesthood and that they could be given as property. Like that was part of their testimony. And isn't that just a sad reality? And if God is so unchanging, is that how he still views women today? That we're just something that can be taken and given away? I think this is super important to consider the other words. And I'm sorry, this is a little shorter, but the word Destroyed, it's used 11 times in 132. When we talk about choice, I think we have to look at the parameters around this choice. If the alternative to accepting polygamy is that your family won't. That the gates of heaven will be closed to them, that your whole family isn't going to have salvation if you don't make the right decision here. Super important. Is that really something we would consider? Agency and then the last word. Worth reviewing for our episode today, because we are going to talk about whether or not Joseph Smith might have had sex with all of these women and young girls that he took under his power. I just want to point out the word seed that's used in Doctrine and Covenants multiple times. There are 31 references to Abraham, and they talk about Abraham and sacrificing, being willing to sacrifice his son. And they also talk about Abraham being given hagar by his wife Sarah. So when you look at those verses, it talks about procreation. It talks about, you know, multiplying his seed in this life and in the next. So I think it's important to consider that whether they had sex or not. We're going to go into more detail about that in the slides that might put together. But I think it's important to remember that that was like a quintessential part of this doctrine. That was. That was sort of the whole purpose of it. Right. So anyway, those are just the three things that I wanted to hone in on before we get started today. So.

John Dehlin [00:09:41] And if I. If I can just quickly respond, Alicia, that was wonderful. Number one. Yeah. So many apologists now, including Brian Hales, want to really make hay of the fact that Joseph Smith never had. Well, that there isn't, like, video camera ever evidence of Joseph Smith having sex with his polygamous wives. But yes, that, that point about seed is just so crucial because it's, it reinforces the point made in the Book of Mormon itself, which says basically, God may command polygamy, but it will, it will always be about raising up a righteous seed which implies sex or insemination, basically. So that's a great point, Alicia. And then also I'll just say in my own personal testimony, I read an account of my great grandmother. So my grandma's mom, who is the third wife of, of. Of four polygamous wives with my great grandpa, when she bore her testimony about polygamy, saying that she had a testimony of it, she didn't say it was because polygamy made her happy. She didn't say it was because her life was awesome or she was treated well because she wasn't. She basically said, I have a testimony of polygamy because I believe that unlike all my other cousins and siblings who didn't practice the principle, I believe I'm going to be in the celestial kingdom with my dad, who was an apostle, because I lived the principle. So she's basically saying she retained a testimony of polygamy, but only because she knew it would get her to a higher place in heaven than all of her siblings and cousins who didn't live it. And again, that's just my personal witness to why some of these women, even though they had horrendous experiences, were. We're still willing to bear testimony about it later.

Alicia (faith unraveled) [00:11:29] Absolutely. That captures it.

John Dehlin [00:11:31] Yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:11:31] Yeah. The only, the only thing I'll add is you mentioned Abraham being mentioned, what, 31 times in DNC 132 and the two. I just want to point out once again that God never commanded Abraham into polygamy. Never ever. There's no scripture. So Joseph Smith saying that in DNC 132 in the voice of God is a huge tell that Joseph Smith is trying to find ways to justify his actions with polygamy in a way that is just historically and biblically inaccurate. Which tells you right off the start that DNC132 is not from God because he's using a basic inaccuracy for the justification for the entire thing. And so I know I've mentioned that before, but I like to hammer that point home because the entire justification is that Abraham was commanded by God, except he wasn't. And so the entire thing is immediately undercut with credibility. And that's just one of the errors. We cover that in the DNC 132 episode. But I just want to point that out once again, that the entire justification Joseph Smith uses is an error.

Alicia (faith unraveled) [00:12:26] Yeah, he rewritten. He rewrites it for his benefit.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:12:29] Yeah, he's rewriting. He's re. And to make that point further, Joseph Smith is going to rewrite the Bible. Right. He's going to do the Joseph Smith translation of the Bible. That gives him a chance, if he wants to, to fix the Bible, to say it wasn't Sarah that gave Hagar, it was I, God told Abraham, you are going to get Hagar. Or it could say, I God, told Sarah to tell Abraham to take Hagar. None of that's in the Joseph Smith translation. So Joseph Smith had a chance to fix that in the Bible, but he hadn't thought about his justification. He even thought, probably hadn't even thought about any type of real system of polygamy. And so the point is, just like the first vision, just like the priesthood restoration, you can see the timeline of where Joseph Smith is evolving these ideas and he has to try to retrofit them back to make justification for it. And in this case, he had opportunities to do that and didn't do it because he hadn't thought of it yet. And so to your point, this is not in the Bible. He's now reinterpreting the Bible when he had already done that with the Joseph Smith translation.

John Dehlin [00:13:25] Right.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:13:25] And didn't put that in there. It's a big tell.

John Dehlin [00:13:27] Got it. Okay, so the next slide is what we covered in part one of which, basically last episode, part one of this polygamy. Polygamous proposals episode.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:13:38] Yeah. And so we just wanted to cover this really quick because this is a really important kind of common threads within Joseph's proposals that we wanted to kind of have anyone listening to this or watching this kind of think about. And so in the first episode, we covered a lot that had all of these. We're going to cover some in this episode that have these, which is Joseph Smith married a lot of girls that lived in his home first. And so this is something that you're going to see where Joseph Smith brings girls. They live almost as a. With Lucy Walker. He called her an adoptive daughter. And while doing that, he is kind of conditioning her to accept polygamy. Joseph Smith uses some of the older wives to recruit younger ones. Some people have said that they were referred to as mothers in Zion. So in the last episode, we talked about that with the Partridge sisters, with Elizabeth Durfee basically being a, you know, kind of a middle Woman to feel out the, the Partridge Sisters, to see what they know, what they heard about the rumors, if they were open to it. And we're going to talk about that again in the Happiness Letter because the same thing happens there. Joseph Smith proposes to girls that are in vulnerable situations. That's going to happen in today's episode as well, where parents die or they're living with him and they, they don't have any kind of stability outside of, you know, their situation. And Joseph Smith can then, you know, he seems to find a lot of women, girls who are in vulnerable situations that don't have help. We talked about that. Lucy Walker, her mom died. Joseph sends her father off on a mission. While her father's gone, he proposes to her and she actually laments in her journal how she felt horrible that she had no mom, no dad to help her try to figure these things out. Joseph Smith often makes great promises in exchange for this marriage. And we're going to see this today with the Helamar Kimball story. He also makes threats for those who refuse. Lucy Walker was told after she hesitated. Joseph Smith went back to her, I believe, a few months later and said, if I'm giving you 24 hours, if you don't accept this, the gates will be forever closed against you. We talked about the angel with the drawn sword. That's a story he used a couple of times, at least three times where, especially when the women rejected him. We talked about the, with Zina Huntington, where she rejected him. She actually got married to someone else. And then Joseph came and said, she's going to have to marry me. An angel with a drawn sword is going to kill me or destroy me if they don't. And so we covered these in the last episode. But these patterns are going to go through to the, to the proposals we talk about in this episode. And they're really important to kind of understanding how Joseph is crafting his proposals, the tactics he's using to kind of leverage these girls belief that he's a prophet of God almost against them to circumvent their moral compass, to circumvent their conscience, to get them to do something that they know deep down is wrong.

John Dehlin [00:16:18] Alicia, anything you want to add to this?

Alicia (faith unraveled) [00:16:21] Well, I just wanted to reiterate that coercion is such a big theme here. And I think it's interesting that today the doctrine of agency is so central to Mormon theology. And it's interesting looking back on these events, because doesn't it just feel like agency was not a priority for God when it came to moving these girls into plural marriage, they were threatened. They were told that the gates of heaven would be closed to them if they did not comply, that their families would lose out on salvation, threatening the destruction of the prophet if they didn't accept the proposal. I mean, in every case it just looks like agency, not a big priority for God at that point. So that's a pretty big shift from today for an unchanging God. It's a pretty big shift considering the agency is the actual requirement for humans to earn their place in heaven. But apparently that's how important plural marriage was to Heavenly Father.

John Dehlin [00:17:16] Yeah. Another way I'd say that is just that God, the 19th century Mormon God or Mormon Jesus. Because in, in, in Mormonism it's Jehovah or Jesus that's actually the God of the Doctrine and Covenants and the God Joseph Smith's talking to. So Basically Mormon Jesus, 19th century Mormon Jesus doesn't understand consent, doesn't understand coercion, doesn't understand undue influence. Because what 14, 15, 16 year old girl who, who is vulnerable in so many ways and then has an alleged prophet of God very similar to Warren Jeffs or David Koresh, or pick, pick your leader of a high demand religion, what 14, 15, 16 year old girl, when threatened in all these different ways, isn't going to buckle. And so that's just, that's a God that doesn't understand consent and coercion. And you just, everyone has to ask themselves whether that's a God they're okay with.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:18:12] Yeah, and that's, that's the whole thing. Like I always, when I'm, you know, as a convert, I know I've mentioned this in episodes, but I joined and I remember being talked about free agency and a lot of the free agency was more in the terms of the word of wisdom. So they'd say, well, if you want to drink a cup of coffee, you have the free agency to do that. But if you do that, the consequence is that you can't go to the temple, you can't be with your family forever. And I always used to think as a convert, like, is that really free agency? Because at that point the only real option you have is to obey leadership. So it's like you have the free agency to obey. And in this case it is basically telling these girls, you know, you have the choice, you know, and we talked about this in the last episode where Joseph Smith is going to these girls and saying, you have a choice, but if you choose not to, I'm going to be killed. And you just said, I'm your prophet, so let's do this right. And how do you. If you see this with any other leader, as a believing Mormon, you'd say, this is horrible. And then when you say, it's Joseph Smith, you say, oh, well, that one's from God. And it's like, no, you can't. This. You cannot engage in special pleading without then having to apply that to other leaders that you don't want to do. And that's why we always talk about trying to start with a clean slate and viewing this the same way you would view anything else. Because we can't view this through the lens of how the Church has taught us for decades. We have to view it through the lens of what does the data tell us, what does the history tell us? And that's what we're trying to do. And I realize that's loaded. I realize it's emotional, but at the end of the day, if the data is telling you something and you want to ignore that, that's no longer faith. That's something entirely different.

John Dehlin [00:19:39] Yeah. All right, so the next slide we have is the Maria and Sarah Lawrence story.

Joseph Smith as Guardian of the Lawrence Sisters

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:19:45] Yep. And so we finished our first. The first part with the Partridge Sisters. And now Maria and Sarah Lawrence are going to be the second set of sisters that Joseph Smith is going to marry. In that brief window, when Emma says, okay, you can marry some girls, but I get to pick them. And so she picks up Partridge Sisters, which we talked about, he was already married to them when she picked him, so he had to create the second sham marriage. But with the Lauren sisters, they were also living in the Smith household when Emma chose them to be brides of Joseph Smith. A lot of people speculate that Emma probably chose the Partridge sisters and the Lawrence sisters because they were living in the house and she could keep an eye on them. But the point is, the Lawrence sisters moved into the Smith household when their father died. The Smiths took them into their home, and then Joseph Smith was the legal guardian over these two sisters, which makes the marriage all the more questionable. But we do know Emma chose them, so you have to kind of consider that in that sense as well. Maria was 19 when she married Joseph, and her sister was just 16. Sarah, both sisters indicated a sexual relationship with Joseph, although they were not married to Joseph previous to Emma's brief acceptance, as we talked about. So this is not like a sham marriage situation like we saw with the Partridge sisters.

John Dehlin [00:20:59] I am surprised. You know, a lot of this detail is new for me. I'm surprised I've. I've never heard Joseph Smith accused of incest. Now, that's a harsh word. And I'm not, I'm not invoking that word. But knowing how angry, especially some people who are processing this information tend to get. I didn't realize he was literally the legal Guardian over a 16 year old. And if he's the level. If he's the legal guardian over 16 year old and he's having sexual relations with her in his house, that sounds a lot like adopting a child and then having sex with the child. So I'm surprised no one's ever made that claim that I've heard, Alicia. Mike, tell me if you think I'm. I'm not making that allegation. Tell me if you think that is reasonable or unreasonable. Alicia.

Alicia (faith unraveled) [00:21:50] That's, that's exactly how I read it. And I was gonna say I remember maybe like 8 to 10 years ago, I don't remember when that book Engage in the Wrestle by Sherry Dew. Oh, I just love Sherry Dew. Like, I would go to any opportunity I could to, like, listen to her talk. And I remember thinking, why is there such an emphasis to engage in the wrestle and wrestle with what? Like, I just didn't understand what people were wrestling with until I started to get into this history and saw how just absolutely awful it was. I mean, that's just the understatement of the year. So it wasn't really until I started to dig into these stories, especially of early Mormon polygamy, that I realized, like, this is why there is such an emphasis. This is the one true church. Why do they have to tell us to stay in the boat? Like, why would I get out of the boat? Like, you just don't understand it until you start digging into it. And what you just said, John, to me, absolutely captures it. I view these girls as like a foster child situation or an adopted daughter situation. And there's multiple. It's not just one. We see this consistent pattern. So. So, yeah, so I don't think what you said was off base. I completely align with that. These Lawrence sisters were. You know, when you see parents that have passed away and Joseph Smith is like, I'm going to take you into my care. You know, he's not taking the little kids. The little kids get fished out to other families. It's just the ones who are like, you know, 14 and up.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:23:21] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:23:22] Mike?

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:23:23] Yeah. I don't view it. I don't view it as incest because I think this whole thing is.

John Dehlin [00:23:28] It's not genetic you're saying because it was a genetic incest.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:23:31] Yeah, but like, at the same time, like. Like Alicia said, you have Joseph Smith with Lucy Walker. He. Her mom dies, he takes her in, sends a dad off on a mission, proposes to her while he's gone, and they have sex. You've got the Lawrence sisters. He is the legal guardian after their dad dies. And we'll get into that a little bit more in the next slide. But he assumes to be the legal guardian, so they are technically like foster children. And all of a sudden he marries and have sex with them. And this. This is something that should cross so many ethical lines, so many moral lines. And yet, like Alicia said, when you bring it up in a setting with believers, they're like, oh, well, no, you just have to, you know, kind of accept the fact that Joseph made some mistakes. It's like, no, he made these mistakes over and over. There's a. A Friends episode where I think I forgot who it is, but I think Ross, like, cheats on Rachel or whatever. I don't know, whatever it is, and he says, oh, it just kind of went in or something. She goes to go in and out and in and out. It's just like. It's. How many times do you have to have this happen where you go, this is predatorial behavior? This is if you had a foster home and they were bringing in a bunch of people who were coming from vulnerable situations, and the teenage girls they were making secret proposals to and having sex with, that person would be in jail. And so to then say Joseph Smith was the most righteous person since Jesus, or even just to say he's an imperfect man is a complete dodge of the fact that we can show he's doing things that would absolutely repulse us if it was anyone else. And so I don't really look at it as incest, as just the most horrific abuses of power you can possibly imagine from someone who claims to speak for God.

The Lawrence Sisters Estate Controversy

John Dehlin [00:25:04] Okay, all right, well, let's go to the next slide then. The controversy with the estate of the Lawrence sisters.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:25:12] Yeah, so this is the one where it gets a little even shadier with this particular situation. And there's a lot of controversy. And it's one of those things we'll never quite know the full extent of. And so Joseph Smith becomes the legal guardians of the Lawrence sisters after their dad dies. And in the will of their father, it gave one third of the estate to his wife. And the rest of it was to be spread out amongst the different heirs. And so William Law, who At this point, yes. Is an antagonistic source, although I think a lot of people would argue he's reliable because he was an Insider claimed in 1887, basically, he says, soon after my arrival in Nauvoo, the two Lawrence girls came to the Holy City. Two very young girls, 15 to 17 years of age. They had been converted in Canada, where orphans were orphans and worth about $8,000 in English gold. Joseph got to be appointed their guardian, probably with the help of Dr. Bennett. He naturally put the gold in his pocket and had the girls sealed to him. And so a lot of times you'll hear people who leave the church talk about how Joseph Smith basically becomes their guardian so he could steal their estate. And Todd Compton has a different take of it, which he says the inheritance was not $8,000 in English gold, but a farm in Illinois, which was possibly worth about $1,000, and a promissory note for $3,000 if it was repaid in full. And so we mentioned the inheritance because it's a common part of the Lawrence sister story. But we also do have these different accounts that Joseph Smith was handling this estate in a way that was seen by the Lawrence sister's mother and her next husband as mishandling and kind of stealing their estate. And so I don't know if Alicia. I know Alicia had some stuff she wanted to say on this, so maybe I'll let you jump in if you want. And I know you had some thoughts.

Alicia (faith unraveled) [00:27:03] Yeah, I just think this story is so interesting, and I really wish we had firsthand accounts from these women. So we know Maria died before the saints actually left for Nauvoo. And then Sarah was reassigned to Heber C. Kimball after Joseph Smith's death, but eventually leaves the church from Salt Lake. It was around 1851. And she goes to California. She visits Salt Lake at one point after leaving as an apostate, and apparently denies ever having anything to do with Joseph Smith or her second husband, Heber C. Kimball. And this is just totally anecdotal, but I thought it was interesting because so many of us are living our lives as apostates. So I thought it was a little fun. Just like, side note of the way that Helen Marr Kimball, who remains faithful, she writes her thoughts about Sarah Lawrence in an Exponent article. And I just thought it was really interesting. So you have to paint the picture. Helen Markimbell's father is the one that Sarah was reassigned to. Okay. So. And she also. I didn't include this part in the quote, but she also suggests that it was because of Sarah's jealous nature that she walked away from polygamy. I hope it doesn't seem that I'm throwing Helen Markimble under the bus, but I just thought this was an interesting side note. So she says. This is what Helen Markimbel says of Sarah. She has lost every spark of the gospel which had once been her guiding star, and was finally left to herself. She became so wicked that when paying her last visit to Salt Lake, she denied emphatically ever being connected to Joseph or my father and was very insulting to those who dared to dispute her word. She abused her brother Henry's second wife most shamefully when meeting her in a store, laying to her the most humiliating and abusive accusations which proved her to be the most vicious and heartless woman. Her brother, Henry Lawrence, was so annoyed by her unprincipled course that he was among the most thankful when she left here and returned to California, where she soon died.

John Dehlin [00:29:06] Dang, that's grim.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:29:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:09] Why? Wait? Why? Well, tell me why that is sad. Like, so her other sister had already died young, and now she's dying young. Like, to me, I'm wondering, was it by. By suicide? Like, but tell me why you're laughing, Alicia. But also tell me why you highlight all that.

Alicia (faith unraveled) [00:29:26] I don't know. It's just. Yeah, it is really sad. It's just some of these situations are, like, so horrific that it's, like, insulting. A little levity can, like, almost help us look at it.

John Dehlin [00:29:36] Sure.

Alicia (faith unraveled) [00:29:37] But I think also, just having experience being an apostate myself and how people really view us, it's just kind of like the worst thing you can imagine. Just yesterday, I was trying to explain it to someone who's never been a member, and I said, imagine the worst thing you can imagine someone doing. Robbing a bank. I mean, I don't know, killing someone. And then, like, what do you think of them after they do that? Is it someone that you're going to go to for advice? Is it someone that you respect? I mean, I feel like in some cases, not every case, but I feel like in some cases, that is how we're viewed as people who've walked away from the church, that there's just, like, you just have completely lost your position as a person of authority, as a person worthy of respect or. You know what I mean? And so I just think it's interesting to look back the early days of the church and see in all of these episodes, what we're doing is viewing patterns that possibly still exist today. And are still threaded through our Mormon culture, even today. Yeah. So this bit from Helen talking about her, you know, I guess what would have been her stepmom, who's really essentially her peer. Right. But it's just. I just think it's interesting to look at these. These patterns that exist today. Like, really, they. Where their genesis is the early days of the Mormon Church.

John Dehlin [00:30:58] Yeah. Like. Like, if it's true that. Which is the Lawrence girl that comes into Salt Lake City. Which. Which Lawrence. Yeah. If it's true, Sarah Lawrence comes in and denies any association with Joseph Smith in terms of polygamy. She's only doing what Emma did, which is to say, I. I don't want this to be tagging me for the rest of my life. I mean, who would. Who would want that scandal? But I'm also reminded of the musical Wicked, when Elphaba, the. The green. You know, the witch when. When she turns on the wizard of Oz, there's that song where the. Where the townspeople start gossiping about her and they. You know, they say something like, I hear she has an extra eye that always remains awake, you know? You know, and you can just see that. That when somebody crosses the power, the community that supports the power just rises up to defame. Defame the apostates. And that's just. That's the human experience.

Alicia (faith unraveled) [00:32:00] Dehumanized. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:02] Yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:32:02] Yep. Yeah. And we'll see that in our next episode, which is going to be on the Happiness Letter. Eliza Snow, who is an, you know, polygamous wife, she does the same thing where all of a sudden, Nancy Rigdon speaks out, and she writes a poem called the Tatler where she goes after. And you're just like, you know, we talked about this in the last episode, where you know, sometimes in these systems, women maybe will go along with it and really try, you know, to create their own power within that system, knowing that you're strengthening, you know, in this case, like a patriarchal polygamous system. But some of these women will basically elevate themselves to protect their power in that system. And so they see people who speak out against it as someone who is going to take all of the sacrifice they've made to become a polygamous wife and kind of diminish it. And so they do speak out. And it's kind of sad to see that because of the fact that these are women who were together in this early part of the church, but because some of the women spoke out against what Joseph Smith was doing with polygamy, they're all of a Sudden the enemy. And it just shows how divisive it can be.

John Dehlin [00:33:06] And not to lose the point of this slide, not only do we have Joseph Smith having sex with, with basically foster children in his care, he's, he's apparently taking their large inheritance and using it for his own personal purposes. I wish Sarah Lawrence would have put together an autobiography or the Lawrence sisters would have put together an autobiography or biography, because that would make really, really valuable information. I think it would.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:33:35] And that's the problem. We don't have a lot. And so the last two tidbits I'll make on this is Lindsay Hansen park, in her Year of Polygamy episode, talks about the, the inheritance issue. And so while we don't know exactly what Joseph Smith took over as guardian and trustee of their estate, we do know that when their mother Margaret remarries, the husband that she remarries goes to Joseph Smith to try to take back the estate. And Joseph Smith, of course, is not going to give it to him. And so the history of church, history of the church records this passage from Joseph Smith, Josiah Butterfield, and he's the new husband, came to my house and insulted me so outrageously that I kicked him out of the house, across the yard and into the street. And so it's one of those things where we don't know the specifics, but we do know that at least on some level, Joseph Smith was controlling this estate. And it was at least enough of an estate where the new husband wanted to get it back for him and his wife and Joseph wouldn't give it to them. So you could see whether it's a large amount, whether it's $8,000 or whether it's 3,000 or 1,000. Joseph Smith is holding these funds in a way that basically is apparently keeping it away from the widow of the husband. And I think that again shows you some of the character that we're dealing with and some of the problems you see when you try to justify these polygamous marriages. And maybe in this case it wasn't just about sex because Emma did give these girls to Joseph. But apart from all of that, Joseph was already the trustee of their estate. And so you're seeing these power dynamics, the money dynamics, the property, all of these things are woven into these accounts. And that's why we're trying to cover a bunch of them, to show that these are not one off things, these are patterns. And the last note I'll make is you had mentioned.

John Dehlin [00:35:12] Can I just say really quickly.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:35:14] Yeah, jump in here.

John Dehlin [00:35:14] I just Googled what $3,000 in 1840 would be worth today, and it's $102,000.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:35:23] Yeah. I mean, and so we don't know because Todd Compton says it was a promissory note. So we don't know what was paid back. But the problem is, even if it wasn't paid back, the fact is Joseph Smith's holding out of that note because he wants to be the one that's paid back. So you can't say he didn't get anything because he probably thought he was going to.

John Dehlin [00:35:39] And so my point is $3,000, if it's not 8,000. Three thousand is still an enormous amount of money.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:35:45] Oh, yeah. It would be a ton of money. It would be, at this point in the church, an amount of money that they need because this is after Joseph Smith has run the church in the ground with the. The bank scandals and all that. So, I mean, this is a big deal.

John Dehlin [00:35:55] Yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:35:55] And again, even if Joseph doesn't have gold in his pocket, he would have a note that would potentially get him, like you said, the equivalent of like, six figures today, which is obviously, you know, it's a massive amount of money. And you could understand why the. The new husband is trying to fight to get it back for him and Margaret, who is the widow and. Yeah, yeah. So. And then Mariah. Maria died at 22. And Lindsay Hansen park notes in. In her episode A Year of Polygamy, that when she died, she was said to have spent the last years of her life marred by sadness. Samuel Smith's daughter, Mary Norman wrote, she died of consumption, or one might more truthfully put it, of a broken heart. She said to my Aunt Lucy one time that if there was any truth in Mormonism, she would be saved. For she said, my yoke has not been easy, nor my burden light. That's a phrase I've heard a lot before. So she obviously, the Lawrence sisters did not have a good experience with Joseph Smith's polygamy, with Mormon. Polygamy with the Mormon Church. And so.

John Dehlin [00:36:50] And they both. They both died in their 20s, basically, it looks like.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:36:53] I think Sarah died when she was 40 something. I think she died, like, when she was 40.

John Dehlin [00:36:56] Oh, okay. Okay. So. Died before they were 50.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:36:59] Yeah, yeah, they both died before they were 50. They both obviously did not have good feelings about.

John Dehlin [00:37:03] Yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:37:03] What was happening. And so when you hear the church say, oh, well, they had such great spiritual experiences, so you shouldn't question. It's like, no, no.

John Dehlin [00:37:09] Yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:37:09] You need to take all of this together and look at the data again, because we, you know, we see in all sorts of high demand places where people are in situations where you can see it's horrific. And they're like, no, no, no, this is what God wants. This is what you know. Yeah, it's messy. But, you know, we do have these accounts that I think are helpful to give context.

Helen Mar Kimball and the Kimball Family Story

John Dehlin [00:37:28] All right, well, let's jump to our next spouse slash victim, Helen Markimbell. She's perhaps the most mentioned of all of Joseph Smith's plural wives.

Alicia (faith unraveled) [00:37:40] Yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:37:41] And this one is the one I can tell you right now. When I first read the CES letter, when I first needed to know and I could picture, I went into another room, I was at my in laws house and I grabbed my laptop, I sat down on the bed, and the one thing that always bothered me about Mormonism was polygamy. So I searched for Mormon polygamy, or I think it was Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith, Mormon polygamy. And the CS letter came up and I remember reading the stuff by Halmar Kimball and it was one of those ones where like, you're, you just feel like your stomach dropped because you're like, this is insane. And to me, we'll get into it in these slides, but the whole story is actually worse, I think in a lot of ways than just the fact that she was 14. So can I, can I, can I

John Dehlin [00:38:25] ask you guys to validate just one thing? I don't see this in, in the slides coming up is I understand I was told this story of, of Joseph Smith bringing Heber C. Kimball into his office and saying something like, heber, God has told me that I'm supposed to take your wife to be my wife. And then Heber supposedly like kneels down, brings his wife to Joseph or something and like hands Joseph his wife's hand in marriage to shadow show his obedience. And then Joseph Smith seals them together on the spot and basically says, that was an Abrahamic test. Now that's a story I remember being told at BYU around 1991, 92. I think it's probably important. Is it important for us to tell that story before we talk about Helen Marr?

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:39:26] It's in there. We have, it's actually at the beginning. So we.

John Dehlin [00:39:29] Oh my gosh, I'm so freaking sorry. I didn't see it. I just scanned. Jump in.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:39:34] That's fine.

John Dehlin [00:39:34] Let's jump in.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:39:34] Yeah. So, you know, as John said, this is probably the most famous of the polygamous marriages because of the fact that she's 14. And so to me, the Story behind it is crazy because it's often used as this faith promoting story. And I cannot understand for the life of me how it is. And so the church's essay says. According to Helen Mark Kimball, Joseph Smith stated that the practice, this principle would be the hardest trial the saints would ever have to test their faith. Though it was one of the severest trials of her life, she testified that it also been one of the greatest blessings. Her father, Heber C. Kimball, agreed. I never felt more sorrowful, he said of the moment he learned of plural marriage in 1841. I wept days. I had a good wife. I was satisfied. And what the church does not mention here is that Heber C. Kimball only finds comfort in after his wife has a visionary experience. And so the reason he's weeping for days is because Joseph Smith goes to him and says, hey, Heber, God told me that you're supposed to give your wife to me. So he weeps days, or wept days because he was not wanting to give up his wife to Joseph Smith. And so the essay makes it sounds like he wept days because of the idea of polygamy. No, he cried for days because Joseph Smith said, you need to give me your wife. And so Joseph Smith calls it an Abrahamic test. I would argue it's a loyalty test. So he comes back and he says, you know what, Joseph, have my wife go do what you want with her. And Joseph's like, oh, dude, no, sorry, this was just a test. So he does seal him on this. I think he does seal him on the spot. He seals him quickly. And the point is, so the church puts us out as this faith promoting story, but here's the problem. And so Violet or valet, I think it's Vilate, right? So it says Heberce Kimball says he felt. I never felt more sorrow if I wept days at a good wife. Well, then they talk about how he finds comfort in this, right? And the only reason he gets comfort in it is because his wife basically agrees that he can go and have sex with other women. And so Vlate's daughter later recalls, she told me she never saw happy a man as father was when she described the vision and told him she was satisfied and knew it was from God. So they paid this as a faith promoting story. But basically what they're saying is she never saw Heber Kimball as happy as when she told him he could go and marry and have sex with other women. I mean, it's just like I read that I'm just like, what in the. You know, what, what the frick are we doing here? Painting that as a faith promoting story. You know, just this idea. Like, could you imagine a church movie where Vilate walks up to Heber and she's like, you know what, Heber? I believe it's from God. So you can marry and have sex with. I can't remember the name of the first woman. Sarah Moon. I think that he takes and then Heber just jumps for joy with this big smile on his face. It's like, this is insane. You would think if Heber C. Kimball was a good dude, he'd be crying because his wife's like, yeah, you got to go marry and have sex with this other girl. But it's like this. I cannot understand. This is faith promoting. You got Joseph Smith saying, I'm gonna take your wife. Heber cries for days. They don't really mention why in the essay. He comes, he says, no, you can have her. And then all of a sudden, then they're like, oh, well, Heber was so happy once. His wife. Yeah, sorry, Alicia, you were. It's horrible.

John Dehlin [00:42:41] You were shaking your head. Alicia, anything you want to add?

Alicia (faith unraveled) [00:42:44] I have so many thoughts on this. I wasn't sure where to throw this in, but I just have to throw this out there because I think this is. It's such a peculiar situation, and there is a lot of dispute about, like, whether they had sex or not. I know we're going to talk about that in a couple slides, but I just wanted to throw one thing out. You guys feel free to tell me your thoughts on it. But Heber C. Kimball eventually becomes the second Morris powerful person in the church. And there was a lot of resistance going on at this time. Just if you think about the climate of the church and how many people were. You know, there was a lot of hiding and just there was so much resistance from community members, people who had descended from the church. So could this marriage to Helen be partly that Joseph Smith is looking to create this, like, dynasty here in this lifetime, Like a group of individuals that will have his back under any circumstance. And to create this level of allegiance, he would really have to make them like family. Right. So then what better way to vet someone, first of all, than to give them the Abrahamic test to see if they would be willing to give their own wife? And in this case, he was. And then, I don't know, you just think about this. It sort of galvanizes this allegiance to Joseph Smith. They're going to be exalted together in the highest level, levels of heaven. The Kimballs and the Smiths, all because of Helen. And I think it's worth a consideration. I just, I think there might be more than just Joseph smith wanting a 14 year old. I think there might have been more strategy in this. Have either of you ever thought of that?

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:44:19] Well, in this particular story, I think most of the accounts that we have, and there's, there's not a lot, they're written late, but they do tend to point to Heber C. Kimball giving Helen to Joseph and not Joseph saying. Because sometimes you'll hear from, like when you get out of the church and you'll hear people talk about. They'll say, oh, yeah, Joseph said, I'm gonna take your wife. And then when he said no, he says, well, I'm not gonna take your wife, but I am taking your daughter. I don't think we have any accounts that back that up. So I do think that as Joseph is teaching these, these men about polygamy and he's trying to justify it by saying I could seal people together and create this dynasty, I think Heber C. Kimball then says, well, I want in on that. The problem to that apologetic standpoint, there's two. One is they had the law of adoption at that point, which is where men could be sealed to men. So Joseph could have sealed himself to Heber. Problem solved. The other problem is Joseph is marrying pairs of sisters. He marries a mother and a daughter. So the whole dynastic thing goes out the window when you're having sex with different pairs of sisters, like with the Partridge sisters and the Lawrence sisters. If you're really trying to create a dynasty of families. He could have married and had sex with Eliza or Emily, but he doesn't need to do both. And he marries four pairs of sisters. So I do think, I do think people believed Joseph Smith was creating a dynasty where you're sealing people together. And I do believe that makes the other men in the church more willing to jump into it and to be complicit within it. And that might be why Heber says, take my daughter because I want to be sealed to you. But at the same time, because they have the law of adoption and because of what Joseph Smith is doing, I think that apologetic is still going to be unworkable because of how much Joseph kind of abuses those kind of lines of, you know, like I said, marrying and having sex with, with four pairs of sisters and mother, daughter, pair and all that. It just doesn't quite work. He could, he could have avoided a lot of these problems if that was really his goal.

Alicia (faith unraveled) [00:46:08] So you think he really just wanted a 14 year old wife? In this case, I don't think.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:46:13] Well, I mean, again, I think the story shows in this case that Heber is giving Helen to Joseph. So I'm not sure that you could make the argument that Joseph saw Helen and said, hey, your daughter's looking pretty good. I want her. I think Heber is. From the stories that we have, again, this is, it's fragmentary, as the church loves to say. And some of these are late additions. So when you give a late story, of course you're going to want to frame this and you're going to want to make Joseph as righteous as you can. But what we do have seems to indicate that it was Heber who's telling Joseph, take my daughter. And I think Helen kind of implies that as well in her writings where she says, basically like my wife or my father sacrificed me as a U lamb or whatever it is. So in this case, I don't think Joseph Smith is seeking her out. I think with Lucy Walker you can make that argument. With the Partridge Sisters you make that argument. I don't know that you can hear because we don't have enough data. So I, yeah, I wouldn't go that route with this particular one.

John Dehlin [00:47:09] I might be more disturbed if, if it's Heber that's offering his daughter up to Joseph than I am if Joseph's going after. Because ultimately Joseph accepts. So it just shows how much power he had that men were offering up their 14 year old daughters.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:47:24] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:47:24] To Joseph because. Yeah, that's even more disturbing maybe.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:47:29] I, and I agree. That's why I always say, and I've said in these episodes a few times, you know, high demand religions can make really good people do really dumb things or really bad things. And in this case, yeah. This particular belief made Heber potentially give up his daughter to a man that's over twice her age. And that is not exactly a faith promoting story either. So even if you want to, we'll get into this in the next few slides. But yeah, to your point, John, you know, people are like, oh well, Joseph didn't demand her. Well, that doesn't necessarily fix the problems that are coming from here. It might fix one, but it creates another.

How the Gospel Topics Essay Misleads on Helen Mar Kimball

John Dehlin [00:47:59] Yeah, well, let's jump to the next slide which is how the Gospel topics essay on polygamy misleads members in the world about the Heber C. Kimball story.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:48:10] Yeah. And so we pretty much just covered this. I, I kind of went through this slide when I was kind of Rambling on. But yeah, I mean, basically I just. The essay talks about this as being this faith promoting story. And you know, they don't tell, you know, the quote about Helena R. Kimball that she never saw so happy man is when father as father, when she described the vision. And they don't tell her that's because Heber was commanded by Joseph Smith to take a polygamous wife, Sarah Noon. I did have the name right, or else he would lose his apostleship. So, you know, it's just funny because if the church essay said, you know, Heber went to his wife and said, I'm just gonna, I need to marry and have sex with Sarah Noon. And then she said yes. And then, you know, Helen later said she never saw so happy a man. A reader would be like, holy crap, that's horrible. But the fact is they're being very careful not to give the context here. And I think that that is very misleading, intentionally so that readers don't understand how this system of polygamy was being implemented. Heber C. Campbell would eventually take 43 wives. He would have 66 children with 17 of those wives. You know, and again, this is the other side of the story they're not telling you. And to get now to the, to what everybody knows about this story, this is where Joseph Smith is going to marry Helen Mar Kimball when she was just 14 years old. And from the church's essay, it says the youngest wife was Helen R. Kimball, daughter of Joseph's close friends, Heber C. And valet Marie Kimball, who was sealed to Joseph several months before her 15th birthday. Marriage at such an age, inappropriate by today's standard, was legal in that era. And some women married in their mid teens. That statement at the end is absolute crap. And we can get into that. But yeah, this part of the essay is just absolute, I mean like nuclear grade bs. And so, yeah, I mean, obviously for

John Dehlin [00:49:57] those who don't know the history, when the church came out with this, with this essay, critics of the church, liberal, but you know, progressive Mormons in the church and ex Mormons just screamed outrage because just say it, say 14 year old, don't, you know. And I think we can safely attribute Brian Hales, the Mormon apologist who's really an anesthesiologist who does polygamy research on the side, but I think we can safely attribute that phrase to him. Although as I understand it, the correlation process went all the way up to the Mormon apostles who approved these essays. So we can't hang it all on Brian Hales. But, but Just don't use language like that. Just say it. 14 years old, you know.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:50:42] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I wouldn't even put it on Brian. I wouldn't put on Brian because I bet you Brian wrote whatever he wrote and I bet you went through correlation. I bet you they have a link legal department. And at some point someone's like, we cannot put 14 in there. And I have a. You know, again, it could be Brian. But I would make the argument that they have people reading this that are trying to anticipate the response from readers. And they're like, you cannot say Joseph married a 14 year old. And some idiot in the room is like, guys, I've got an idea. Let's say several months before. It's just, it's, it's. It's so it makes it worse because you're now really kind of stupidly trying to divert from a really simple fact that everyone can read. You know, you could go, what's several months before 15 or 14? So it's one. And I think the guy I think is. I think it's last name is Snow. He's one. That he was either a historian or one of the people in the history department. He did an interview a year or two ago and he actually said it was a mistake for us to phrase it that way. They know it was stupid to do that.

John Dehlin [00:51:37] You want to add anything to that, Alicia?

Alicia (faith unraveled) [00:51:40] Yeah, I just think that the church is doing everything they can to try to make this look not as awful as it absolutely is. I mean, when we read what Helen Markimbell said about her experience going through this as a young girl, you know, she talks about what it was like to abandon her social life, her friends, you know, not be able to date. And she already had a love interest at that time. And it's nice to know that she did eventually get to pursue that because Joseph Smith died. But the intention was for her to be this silent wife. And reading her accounts really gives us a taste of what it would have been like for her and what it was probably like for the other girl as she related those experiences. And I actually have this quote here from Todd Compton from In Sacred Loneliness. He says she is perhaps the classic example of a woman whose conversion to polygamy was difficult but complete, coming only after a period of severe cognitive dissonance.

John Dehlin [00:52:40] Yeah, okay. Yeah, so, Mike, we've talked about this quote.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:52:51] Wait, let's do this real quick. Yeah, this, this one, you know, that last paragraph I read from their essay is just. It's crap. And this is why it's because, you know, we talked about the fact that they're using deceptive wording. They don't mention the fact that Joseph also marries another 14 year old. Nancy Maria Winchester. But the age stuff that they talk about is just ridiculous. First of all, in the 1890 census, they tell us that the age, the average age of marriage for a woman was 20 and 24 for men. And most also we pointed out that 19th century girls typically had their first period three years later than they do today. So in terms of sexual maturity, marrying a 19 year old or 19th century 14 year old is the equivalent of marrying like an 11 year old today. And so it makes it a lot grosser. But this marriage is problematic no matter how much the church wants to try to paint it as not a big deal. The age difference, Joseph Smith is almost triple her age. It's 38 and 14. And the church also says maybe not common in that day, but it was legal. This marriage is not legal because polygamy is not legal. So every part of that paragraph is just misleading. And they know what they're doing by using that wording. And so we revolted at hearing that Warren Jeffs married young girls. And as I said at the beginning of the episode, we cannot privilege Joseph Smith just because we were raised and conditioned and indoctrinated to believe he's a prophet of God. Because once you do that, you then have to say, well, then Warren Jeffs should be able to have that same special pleading from his followers. And we're not willing to give that. So until we're willing to say to FFDS members, you know what, your beliefs are just as valid as mine, you, you can't have it both ways. And I hate that the church tries to do that.

Alicia (faith unraveled) [00:54:32] Could not agree more, Mike. Yeah, that line that they use, that it was legal in that era and some women married in their mid teens, this statement does not capture nearly the reality of it. This was not a thousand years ago. I mean, I almost wonder if there was like this Joseph Smith, you know, referencing the Old Testament. And so I think just as like lay readers of this doctrine, like, we don't really like it was 200 years ago, that's not very long ago. It wasn't that different than it is today. I don't know, people will sometimes say, also, you know, my grandmother was 15 when she got married, but usually in those cases she was marrying someone that wasn't that much older than her. It wasn't someone that was like twice or three times their age. So the church makes this big effort to make this look acceptable and to say that it was legal. This may have been legal at the time, but it wasn't ethical. And it was certainly viewed as immoral from people both outside the church and inside the church. I mean, it was. This is why people, I mean, this is part of the reason that people didn't like Joseph Smith.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:55:42] Yeah. I mean, part of the reason the Nauvoo Expositor was written is because William Law was mad about Joseph's marrying the Lawrence sisters. So, you know, this is not, I mean, people in Joseph Smith's inner circle like, dude, this is horrible. You know, and so this idea that, well, it wasn't necessarily common, it wasn't legal. We talked about that. It's not legal. You polygamous marriages, none of them are legal.

John Dehlin [00:56:01] Yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:56:01] So the article of faith saying we obey the law of those lands, absolute crap. They did not.

John Dehlin [00:56:05] Yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:56:06] And it's not common because what they're trying to imply is that because you're married in your teenage years, it's, you know, that happened a lot. Well, what about a 14 year old marrying 42? You might be able to find a few examples maybe in the entire history of our records. But it's not common because it just didn't happen. And so, yeah, it's such a misleading paragraph. And it's one of those things where they're hoping members don't look further. They're hoping, they go, oh, that's why it happened. And not actually look at the fact that, no, they're lying about the, the ages of marriage, the gap back then. We have two different censuses. I have on the website. I think one is four years and one's like 2.4 years. So we're talking in Joseph Smith's case, a 24 year gap. It's, it's, it's not, it just doesn't work.

John Dehlin [00:56:47] Okay, all right, so now we get to another. Just what I think is a really disingenuous, apologetic, asking the question, you know, challenging the idea that Joseph Smith would have had sex with Helamar Kimball.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:57:02] Yeah. And so this is one of those ones. I just want to be clear. There's no evidence either way. So a lot of people will say, because there's no evidence they had sex, they didn't have sex. A lot of people say because there's no evidence they didn't have sex, they did have sex, we just don't know. And so it wasn't normal at that time for, for girls to talk about their sex lives, let alone a 14 year old in a polygamous marriage to someone who claimed to be a prophet of God. And so apologists will cite Helen's absence in the Temple Lock case as evidence that she did not have sex. But again, the church wanted to prove Joseph Smith was a polygamist. But I'm not sure they're gonna want to put up someone is saying that they had sex as a 14 year old girl. I just, I think that's one of those things where that to me is not a convincing argument. And you know, the point is we don't know. And in my opinion, it doesn't matter. And in my opinion they probably did. If I had to put money down, I'd say they probably did not have sex. But the fact is Joseph Smith is still controlling her. He's controlling her chance at a loving relationship. He's controlling his, her chance at being able to go out to dances and meet boys that she actually wants to spend her life with. She's basically being shielded now because she's basically marked for being future sexual relations with Joseph Smith. And so, you know, we've talked about Lindsay Hansen Park's Year of Polygamy podcasts often in these episodes, and I highly recommend her. Not just that podcast series, but her episodes on Mormon Stories. They did. She did an episode with you going over the essay itself and she talks about that it's not just about sex. It's about the fact that he is controlling her sexuality. He's controlling her chance of love, he's controlling her ability to go out in public. So even if they didn't have sex, he's still having a lot of those power Dynamics with a 14 year old girl. And those are things that cannot just be swept away because of that. We just, we don't know if they had sex, but there's still a lot of other things we do know.

John Dehlin [00:58:47] Okay. Alicia, do you want to say anything about this question?

Alicia (faith unraveled) [00:58:52] Yeah, I mean, just sort of reiterating. I mean, this is the most common talking point when it comes to Helen Mark Kimball, because she was 14, you know, this question of whether or not the marriage was consummated. The reality is we don't have evidence either way. But I think that by belaboring this point, we overlook the fact that either way this is a terrible situation because the level of control. And again, just going back to those later writings of what it was like for her to look around and see the other kids her age. And also I think it's worth noting that she didn't initially know that this would be. I think initially didn't she believe that this would be just for eternity? And it wasn't until after that she realized that this actually was going to mean that she couldn't date and she couldn't have her childhood. And that was devastating to her. And she absolutely viewed herself as a living sacrifice. But then the other point that I wanted to make, and feel free to respond to that if I got any of that wrong, Mike, but this whole premise behind the revelation was that that was about procreation. Like, go back to DNC 132 if you're confused about what this all means. This is what these references of Abraham are about. It's about raising up seed. There's multiple sources that tell that this was Joseph Smith's intention, was to raise up this righteous generation. I think he even uses the word race at one point with, well, I can't remember who it was, but the story of Sarah giving Hagar to her husband Abraham, the purpose was to raise up innumerable seats. So if there wasn't sex initially that was, I would dispute, absolutely intended at some point, whether it happened before or not.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:00:33] Yep.

Alicia (faith unraveled) [01:00:33] Did I get it all right?

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:00:35] I think so. I mean, you'll hear apologists say that the marriage to Helen was eternity only, but the actions don't match that because, as you said, Helen was not allowed to go to dances, she was not allowed to date. If it was truly eternity alone, she would have lived a normal teenage life and she'd been able to marry somebody knowing that eventually she'd be sealed to Joseph in the eternities. That's not what we have. And so to your point, what this is, if they didn't have sex and we don't know, Joseph Smith is still basically earmarking her for sex later. So however you want to look at it, he was planning on having sex with her. And, you know, the last thing I'll note is we have this angel with the drawn sword story, right? And the angel comes down and says that Joseph Smith is not practicing the commandment fully. Fully meaning sex. So the angel comes down to tell Joseph Smith that. Because originally you'll hear apologists say, well, Joseph Smith was marrying these polyandrus wives because he thought he could get around the commandment that way. He thought if he married women that were already married, he wouldn't have to have sex. And he could get around it because they tried to make Joseph the victim. And they say, well, the angel came down and said, you're not practicing it fully and you're going to be destroyed if you don't. So then he marries Helen Mark Kimball. And so this idea that they wouldn't have sex doesn't match with the angel story. That's why I'm saying, like take this all in totality. The angel story tells us that the angel is telling him, I'm going to destroy you if you don't start having sex in these, you know, polygamous marriages that are being participated in fully. And so I honestly think, well, first of all, I think it's all made up. But the angel with the drawn sword story did not happen because the implications of that are honestly horrific for the Mormon version of God. But the point is the, the, the fact is Joseph Smith is marrying this 14 year old girl and he doesn't live long after this marriage. I would would wager that she and him would have had sex because it's a marriage, as you said, to raise up seed and because he's not letting her go out and talk to any other guys. This was a marriage that was planned to go on as long as he lived. And so whether you want to say he didn't, well, he didn't have sex with a 14 year old, but he earmarked her for sex. It's still gross and it's still a horrible violation and abuse of your, you know, claimed authority as prophet of God. And trying to, like you said, Patrick Mesa says, lipstick on a pig. This is lipstick on a pig.

John Dehlin [01:02:37] This.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:02:37] Don't, I mean, just don't defend this. Just say, I don't even know what you say this. But yeah, don't defend this.

John Dehlin [01:02:42] I'll just go ahead. Alicia.

Alicia (faith unraveled) [01:02:44] I was just going to say there's a quote by Richard Anderson in the book In Sacred Loneliness by Todd Compton and it says Helen says several times that her father took the initiative to arrange the marriage and very possibly he did so with a view to committing her to the prophet before her budding social life produced a choice or a proposal from someone else.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:03:05] It's almost like when you take an 8 year old child and try to get them to get baptized before they go out and learn about religion on their own or something. But you know, that's just a side note.

John Dehlin [01:03:13] Yeah, I'll just weigh in really quickly with some things I've said before. Number one is that if every other prophet, if we have multiple wives of Joseph, admitting, you know, signing affidavits in the temple lot case specifically that they had sex with Joseph or that they were married to Joseph in very deed or knew him biblically. If we know that, if we have evidence from Joseph's own wives that he had sex with them, and then we know that every single other instance of Mormon polygamy involves sex, including Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball, they're all having sex with all their wives. Why are we going to bracket off just the 14 year olds or just the polyandrous wives and say that in those instances there was no sex? There's no reason to do that other than motivate, motivated reasoning or special pleading. And then the only other thing I'll just say is what does this say about Mormon Jesus or the Mormon God that he's telling a 14 year old girl even if she's just going to be put on cold storage for a couple years, why is that necessary? Why not just wait till she's 20? Why not just wait like God? If God can, if God's all powerful, if he can make Laban fall down drunk so that Nephi can chop his head off, which is a problematic story in and of itself, if God can do anything, he could keep Helen from getting married until she's 18 or 20 if he wants to. Why would he make a 14 year old marriage essential? You have to look at what that means about Mormon Jesus or Mormon God. Yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:04:54] Or why couldn't Mormon version of God send an angel down to Helen and said, hey, I need you to not date because you've been given to Joseph Smith. I mean, and it's weird thought that this angel could actually visit someone besides the man who claims all these stories. But yeah, I just. The angel with the John Sword story is the most ridiculous thing because like you said, God's is all power. The Mormon version of God is this all powerful God that cannot do anything when Joseph is not in control of the situation. We talked about that with treasure digging, with the translation with the lost 116 pages. The Mormon version of God is the most powerless being on the in the universe. When the Joseph Smith's not in control of the situation, when Joseph Smith's not in control, he's less powerful than like anyone. And, and so it just shows when you have someone who claims to speak for God, it's problematic.

John Dehlin [01:05:39] Yeah, yeah. All right, let's jump to the next slide which is Joseph Smith traded exaltation for Helen's hand in marriage.

Promises of Exaltation and Helen's Lost Companion

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:05:47] Yeah. And so we talked about this at the beginning and this is one of those things you hear where Joseph Smith makes these promises to these women that if they marry him it will Be a blessing. They'll get exaltation. And so this is from Helen Marr's own words. She says, joseph said to me, if you will take this step, it will ensure your eternal salvation and exaltation and that of your father's household and all your kindred. This promise was so great that I willingly gave myself to purchase so glorious a reward. None but God and his angels could see my mother's bleeding heart. When Joseph asked her if she was willing, she replied, if Helen is willing. If Helen is willing, I have nothing more to say. She had witnessed the sufferings of others who were older and who better understood the step they were taking to see her child, who had Scarcely seen her 15th summer, following in the same thorny path in her mind, she saw the misery which was sure to come as the sun was to rise and set. But it was all hidden from me. Man, that. That one sucks. Like, just reading that, I had a hard time there. Like, the mom sees it. The mom knows full well, and yet she lets it go, because what is she gonna do to stop the guy who claims he's a prophet of God? And I just. Man. Actually just reading it.

John Dehlin [01:06:56] We need to remember to have Alicia read. Read the quotes from women. We do, yeah. Alicia, do you have a. Do you have a comment about that quote?

Alicia (faith unraveled) [01:07:05] I just. You know, it's interesting that this is what Helen's mom said, that if she's okay with it, because this is absolutely the apologetic stance, right, that, like, Helen accepted it. I think it's really helpful. And this had never dawned on me, and it seems just like Captain Obvious here, but I don't know if I ever appreciated how deeply indoctrinated Helen Markimbel would have been. First of all, her parents are, like, some of the most devout people in Mormon history, right? And she's. I would say, probably from her earliest memory, she's been indoctrinated. And even from the time I. She was seven years old and went to the local schoolhouse, her textbook was the Book of Mormon. Kind of like the FLDS kids were, right? Like in the 80s. I don't know how long that went on. But for the FLDS kids, the Book of Mormon was part of their schooling. Their. You know, just. Even in grade school. And this was the case for Helen Markimbell. So I don't mean to belittle her, and I don't mean to be. I just. I hope this isn't disrespectful, but I do think it's really important in gaining context on Helen Markimbell, that she really has a very singular narrow worldview, that is Mormonism. And I just don't think that there is any other option for her as she's looking at this decision.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:08:27] Yep, that's what we saw with Lucy Walker. Some of the other ones where Joseph will say, do you believe I'm a prophet? And as soon as they say, yeah, you're boxed in.

Alicia (faith unraveled) [01:08:34] And absolutely, there just aren't any other

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:08:37] options because you're raised to believe this is the one guy who can pull you through to exaltation. And then all of a sudden, after you tell him, yeah, I believe you're a prophet, then he says, this is what you need to do. I mean, how hard is it to say no at that point? And like you said, your whole worldview at this point, the church is everything, especially in the early days. I know it is to people today. But back then, even more so. That's why there's only a few people that said no and spoke out about it, because of the fact that most people are so far in. And you know, it's the milk before meat.

Alicia (faith unraveled) [01:09:09] Right.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:09:09] The further you get in, the harder it is to get out. And you could, like you said, you could see that here.

John Dehlin [01:09:15] All right, let's go to the next slide, which is how Helen lost her eternal companion to Joseph. And Mike, you can decide whether you want me or Alicia to read the quote.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:09:27] Let's have Alicia read it. But this is not. I mean, I think there's some quotes in here, but this is just, you know, to kind of give some idea of some of the damage that this polygamous marriage caused. This is a write up I referenced in our last episode called Letter from a Doubter, which is a really, really good write up about some of the issues with church history that I think. I really wish more people read because I think it's really impactful. But anyways, yeah, if you want to read that paragraph, this kind of goes over, you know, some of what happened to Helen after she dies, after Joseph dies.

Alicia (faith unraveled) [01:09:56] Am I reading it?

John Dehlin [01:09:57] You got it, Alicia.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:09:58] Yeah, if you're okay with it.

Alicia (faith unraveled) [01:09:59] Yeah, sorry. Yeah, no problem. After Joseph Smith's death, Helen got her social life back. When she was 16, she met Horace Whitney and they started dating. However, the consequences of her marriage to Joseph weren't erased, though. In Helen's own words, she and Horus vowed to cling to each other through time and if permitted, throughout eternity, it was ultimately not permitted. Helen being sealed to Joseph for eternity, could only be sealed to Horus. For time, their children would be Joseph's. In the eternities, they were sealed for time and Horus stood proxy for the deceased Joseph while Helen was resealed to him for eternity. A recurring pattern is that Joseph's sealings were repeated by proxy after his death. As compensation, Horus was sealed the following day to a deceased woman. Once again, a family was not bound together for eternity by sealing ordinance, but rather separated by it. Oh, man, that really captures it, doesn't it?

John Dehlin [01:11:01] Mike? What's your commentary? What's your commentary on that?

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:11:05] It's horrific. We've, we've talked about this in the previous episodes, but this is the problem when you start getting into the church never wants to talk about the specifics of this because the specifics are horrible. And in this case, Helen finds someone she loves. They have kids, these kids love their parents. And in Mormon doctrine, those kids are gonna be ripped away from horrors and given to Joseph Smith, who never met them for eternity. This is like the most, you know this, you know, we talk, we hear so much about how this is the only family that can keep this only church and keep families together forever. It's also the only church that claims to separate them based on something as stupid as this. And I know stupid's a loaded word, but this doctrine is what happens when you have somebody riffing off a 3200 word revelation without any notes because you create these different parts of the doctrine that just are irreconcilable with, with any notion of a loving God. Like this idea that God is we hear all the time. Like with 116 pages, God knows everything that's going to happen. He's thought of every iteration where in the Happiness Letter episode next week, he mentions how, you know, God only does things that he's already, you know, figured out is going to make us the most happy. And yet we have this situation where this poor guy is going to lose his children forever and as a consolation prize is sealed to a dead woman. It's just, it's nonsensical. And yet this is what awaits every mixed faith marriage. Because in the Mormon Church's doctrine, if you're in a mixed faith marriage and one spouse falls away, if you're a woman, you're going to be given to another guy for his polygamous harem and for the eternities. And if the woman falls away, then as the guy, you get to take the kids, the exaltation, the wife just gets to go to a lower kingdom. And so, so this idea, it's yeah, sorry, I. This stuff really just angers me still because I'm in a mixed faith marriage. And I see in other mixed faith marriages how this stuff still lingers over. And then they say, oh, no, we don't really know what's going to happen. All that'll be figured out in the attorney. So it's like, no, it's been figured out. We just don't want to talk about it.

John Dehlin [01:13:00] Anything you want to add on this one, Alicia?

Alicia (faith unraveled) [01:13:02] Yeah, Mike. It's so hard to talk about this without getting heated because these are the points of Mormon history that do affect us today. And the story of Horace Whitney is just another example of how men in the church also suffered in the name of the new and everlasting covenant, because Horus believed that he wouldn't even be with his own children in the next life because his children were going to go to Joseph. Right. And it does make me think about this paradox that we have that the church is all about families. But how many cases do you know where, because of the doctrine, people living people are isolated from their families because they've stepped away from the church or because they're not living the gospel, or they've lost their testimonies and their families believe that they won't be together in the next life? And that's bound to impact relationships today during this life. So this is why this content is so important to me. I've seen so many situations where because someone is LGBTQ or because they've lost their testimony that their parents don't talk to them, they don't respect them, they don't really have a seat at the table anymore. And I can't help but think that this doctrine is the source of that. By the way, did you guys see that promotional video of the financial firm who is literally. Their selling point is that they will establish a trust for you that which only children who are living faithfully will receive their inheritance after you die. And they've got these testimonials of parents saying, oh, yeah, I don't want my adult children to have my money unless they're living righteously. I mean, it's unimaginable, and it is rooted in this concept of the next life. So I think Horace Whitney's story is just one small piece, but it sets a pattern that I would argue we see even today in the church.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:14:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:14:49] All right, Mike, anything else about this slide? Are we ready for the next one?

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:14:54] No, I think, you know, I think I've said my favorite. If you guys all Said I'm, I'm good.

Sarah Whitney, Secrecy, and Joseph's Letter

John Dehlin [01:14:59] All right, well now we're on to Sarah and Whitney then.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:15:02] Yeah. So Sarah and Whitney is an interesting one. She was the daughter of Newell K. Whitney, who is a Big

John Dehlin [01:15:10] Mike. You. We lost your audio for some reason and it's still not there, it's still unmuted. So something, something happened.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:15:22] How about now?

John Dehlin [01:15:23] Okay, now it's good. Yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:15:24] I don't understand why.

John Dehlin [01:15:25] Try that again.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:15:25] So anyways, try that again. Yeah. So Sarin Whitney was the daughter of Newell K. Whitney and he was a well known member, early bishop in the church. The Whitneys were a connected family. Sarah was the second counselor to Emma Smith when the Relief Society was founded. Joseph initially approached Sarah's parents about the marriage and they, much like other stories, initially resisted, but then agreed after praying about it. Sarah's mother Elizabeth references that Joseph had told them the story of the angel, that the most profound secrecy must be maintained, which would likely be a reference to the angel with the drawn sword as we talked about. So this is Joseph Smith going to parents and saying, I need to marry your daughter or an angel is going to destroy me. And so in this case, he's not telling it to the girls, but he's telling it to the parents who are resisting. And I think that really shows again how Joseph Smith, especially as he does these proposals, starts to understand what buttons he needs to push to get people to, to submit. And they're married on July 27, 1842, which puts Sarah at 17 years old and Joseph at 36 years old. So he's over double her age. Joseph provided her father, Bishop Newell K. Whitney, a revelatory marriage ceremony to conduct the wedding, which included promises of exaltation for the entire family, just as Joseph Smith promised to Helen Markimbell and her family if in exchange for the daughter in a polygamous marriage.

John Dehlin [01:16:45] All right, Alicia, any, any thoughts or feedback on this one?

Alicia (faith unraveled) [01:16:50] I mean, I just think we're seeing patterns here. Fathers in leadership. He's also, you know, the parents are also an integral piece of connecting this relationship. Yeah, I think it's just another pattern to me. Well, on the level of secrecy we'll talk about in the next slides. Yeah, but yeah, I think this is all just really important to look at. I mean, I just think it's interesting that God's going to command something that's going to require this level of sneaking around. That's what really occurs to me with the Whitney story. It's just like holy smokes, you know, like you said, John there's like, if God is really able to do all these things, all these stories we see of God commanding people and the story of Laban, and just all these stories throughout the Book of Mormon of God facilitating a way to, you know, bring. To pass his. His work and his glory, you know, and it's just like, wow, this is a lot of sneaking around and hiding and secrecy in order to make this happen. So it just seems.

John Dehlin [01:17:55] All right, well, let's go to that slide. The secrecy even within the family of Sarah and Whitney.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:18:01] Yeah. And so this is one of those things that really shows that Joseph knew what he was doing and he knew where he needed to keep secrets. So basically, this information would not get out. And so not only is this marriage kept from his wife, his first wife, Emma Smith, but even family members of his brides. So Helen Markimal recalled that Joseph was afraid of Sarah's brother Horus, eventual husband of Helamar Kimball. So Joseph was afraid that Horus would disapprove of the marriage, so he sent him east on a mission before the marriage ceremony would occur. So we have another instance of Joseph sending someone on a mission before doing a polygamous marriage, in this case, to marry a sister. In addition to sending off Sarah's brother, Joseph Smith wrote a somewhat famous letter to the Whitney family, which is often cited by critics against Joseph, as it contains language that appears to indicate that Joseph was looking for a sexual encounter with Sarah. In the letter, Joseph Smith asks the Whitney family to burn it after reading, but they did not follow that. And so we have the text of the letter now.

John Dehlin [01:18:59] Okay. Anything else with that, Alicia?

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:19:04] Not for me. Alicia, anything on that one?

Alicia (faith unraveled) [01:19:06] Well, the thing that stands out to me about that letter, too, is just the hiding from Emma. It's so gross. I think we're going to talk about that next.

John Dehlin [01:19:16] All right, well, let's jump to it, then. Joseph's letter to the Whitney family. So this is Joseph. Joseph's words.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:19:23] This is Joseph Smith's letter to them. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:19:25] Can I read it?

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:19:26] Yeah, go for it.

John Dehlin [01:19:28] All right, here we go. Dear and beloved brother and sister Whitney, I take this opportunity to communicate some of my feelings privately at this time, which I want you three eternally to keep in your own bosoms. For my feelings are so strong for you since what has passed lately between us that the time of my absence from you seems so long and dreary that it seems as if I could not live long in this way, and three would come and see me in this, my lonely retreat. It would afford me great relief of mind. If those with whom I am allied do love me, now is the time to afford me succor in the days of ex. In the days of exile. For you know I foretold you of these things. I am now at Carlos Grangers. Just back off brother Hiram's farm. It is only one mile from town. The nights are very pleasant indeed. All three of you come and see me in the forepart of the night. Let brother Whitney come a little ahead and knock at the southeast corner of the house at window. It is next to the cornfield. I have a room entirely by myself. The whole matter can be attended to with most perfect safety. I. It is the will of God that you should comfort now in this time of affliction or not at. Or not at. At all. Now is this time or never. But I have no need of saying any such thing to you, for I know the goodness of your hearts and that you will do the will of the Lord when it is made known to you. The only thing to be careful of is to find out. When Emma comes, then you cannot be safe. But when she is not here, there is the most perfect safety. Only be careful to escape observation as much as possible. I know it is a heroic undertaking. Heroic undertaking. But so much the greater friendship and the more joy when I see you. I tell you all my plans. I cannot write them on paper. Burn this letter as soon as you read it. Keep all locked up in your breasts. My life depends upon it. One thing I want to see you for is get the fullness of my blessings sealed upon our heads. And you will pardon me for my earnestness on. When you consider how lonesome I must be, your good feelings know how to every allowance for me. I close my letter. I think Emma won't come tonight. If she don't. Don't fail to come tonight. I subscribe myself, your most obedient, affectionate companion and friend. Alicia. You're biting. You're biting your knuckles. Why are you biting your knuckles?

Alicia (faith unraveled) [01:22:34] Well, first of all, I was so glad that you didn't ask me to read that one. So thanks for taking that one, John.

John Dehlin [01:22:39] Why? Why are you glad?

Alicia (faith unraveled) [01:22:40] Oh, just because grammatically it's just a nightmare to read, right? There's like all kinds of spelling errors and Anyway. But also, has it crossed your mind that like the Whitney's read this and they just like completely took it seriously? No shade to descendants of the Whitney family. I know all of these people were so deeply indoctrinated, but how could you Possibly read that. And seriously, just think, like, this is a man of God. It's so. It's so bad.

John Dehlin [01:23:08] Well, why don't you. For those. For those who may have gotten lost in all the text. What's your summary, Alicia, of what Joseph's saying here? And then, Mike, I want you to add anything. If Alicia leaves anything up.

Alicia (faith unraveled) [01:23:21] Wait, I didn't. I didn't hear what you said.

John Dehlin [01:23:23] What's your summary of what Joseph's asking in this letter?

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:23:26] Oh.

Alicia (faith unraveled) [01:23:26] Oh, my summary of it is. I mean, maybe I'm off base here, but my summary is, hey, I'm going to be by myself at this time. This is the room I'm going to be in. I love you guys so much. Please come and visit me and bring your daughter. And I'm going to be in this room by myself. Make sure Emma doesn't catch you. That's the. That's my breakdown. Did I. Do you think that how you write

John Dehlin [01:23:51] it also, Mike, what's your. Would you add anything to that, Mike?

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:23:56] No, I. It's one of those things where it's like, I know people go ballistic when you mention that that letter is implying sex. And I get it because he's using carefully worded language. But the. The deal is, if it's truly not, if there's no chance of him wanting a sexual encounter with. With his wife, one of his wives, why is he wanting Emma not to be there? Because, remember, I talked about this. The wife. Sorry, the mom of. Of Sarah is Elizabeth's or. I'm so sorry, I'm fumbling here. Sarah and Whitney's mom is Emma's second counselor in the Relief Society. So why in the world if. If Emma Smith is there and if this has nothing to do with any chance of sex, would Emma not want to see them? Do you know what I mean? Like, this is just a family coming to visit Joseph when he's in hiding. Now, I've heard apologists will say, well, the reason is because if Emma's there, then people are watching. And so if more people go, it's going to draw attention where Joseph is. But I don't agree with that either, because no one's watching the Whitney. So if Emma's already there and the Whitneys come and go without Emma, it's like, so, you know, it's. It's just. It's one of those things where it's the best. Best case for the letter. It shows the deception he's using with his wife, even in these last days of his life, to make sure. She doesn't know what he's up to. And I think that is just. It kind of shows what. Where Joseph's priorities are. And with regard to Emma, they're not good.

Alicia (faith unraveled) [01:25:18] I think it's easy to dismiss too, like this, the position that Emma was in. Like, it really is just so heartbreaking. There was a story, I want to say it was Fawn Brody, that someone gave an account. And of course it was a secondhand account, but I think it probably was true. And it really paints the picture of Emma knocking on the door where she believes that Joseph is with Emily Partridge. I think it was and was just knocking on the door and repeating her name over and over again. Emily, Emily, Emily. You know, and so they're in this mansion house together and there's all this stuff going on behind Emma's back. And I just can't imagine what that must have been like for her. And there's so many holes in this story. We don't really understand why, you know, why Emma denied that polygamy happened. And, you know, but I'm. I'm guessing that there just must have been a level of almost humiliation and feeling betrayed and just such a mixture of emotions. So I laugh at times, but really it's just because it's such an uncomfortable topic and it really was so horrific. And this situation with the Whitney's is just another. It's just another piece in the puzzle. So was he, you know, calling Sarah in to have sex with him in this bedroom because he's by himself? I mean, we can only imagine what was supposed to happen, but we see this level of deception and it's just really, really sad.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:26:48] Yeah, I think that sums it up for me pretty well.

John Dehlin [01:26:50] Super sad. I don't. This language of I want to see you for is get the fullness of my blessings sealed upon your heads. You know, that combined with like, I'm lonely and don't, you know, don't make sure, you know, Emma doesn't see you. It's just this weird. It's like, I want to have sex with your daughter. Don't let Emma know, but I want to give you the fullness of the blessings. It's just a. It's this triple combination of. Of what I think is, is awfulness. So.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:27:25] Well, you know. And again, we'll go back to the angel with the drawn sword. The word that the angel supposedly uses is. Is obeying the commandment fully. And here we've got fullness. I mean, there are a lot of words that seem to point that way. And again, Emma is so close with Sarah's mom. So why would you not want Emma there if they're visiting? Unless it's because you're dealing with the fact that she's your wife and you want to do wife and husband things. I mean, yeah, I think that, to me, is the biggest tell. It's not like you're inviting someone that Emma doesn't know. And Emma's like, who is this girl? You know, like in the movies where you see, like, some guy get caught cheating, and she's like, who's this scary think? It's not like that. This is a family that Emma is super close with. And Joseph Smith is going out of his way to make sure Emma doesn't know because of the fact that he's trying to hide what he's doing with Sarah and Whitney. And unfortunately, with the complicity of the parents.

John Dehlin [01:28:10] Yeah. All right, well, let's jump to the next slide, which is Joseph creates a sham marriage with an eternal bargain. Is this a different sham marriage than the one we've already discussed?

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:28:20] It is indeed. Yeah. So this one's an interesting one because this, again, goes to show the length of secrecy and the bargaining that Joseph Smith uses in. And when we talked about the beginning of the episode, Alicia said, women are property. And this is another part where you could show that Joseph Smith kind of views the women in these marriages almost as like, as property and bargaining tools and favors, as I know Lindsay Hanson park mentions a lot in her podcast. So Joseph Smith is working to conceal this marriage to Sarah and Whitney from the public. So what he has to do is find another man who is going to basically pretend to be married to her so that it takes the attention off of Joseph. And so he goes to Joseph Kingsbury and creates basically a sham wedding with Sarah Ann Whitney, and in doing so, promises that Joseph Kingsbury can be sealed to his dead wife. And so Joseph Kingsbury says, On 29th April, 1843, I, according to President Joseph Smith, council and others, agreed to stand by Sarah Ann Whitney as supposed to be her husband and had a pretended marriage for the purpose of bringing about the purposes of God in these last days, as spoken by the mouth of of the prophets Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and also Joseph Smith. And Sarah Anne should receive a great glory, honor, and eternal lives. And I also should receive a great glory, honor and eternal lives to the full desire of my heart, and having my companion Caroline in the first resurrection to claim her, and no one have power to take her from me. And we shall be crowned and enthroned together in the celestial kingdom of God, enjoying each other's society in all the fullness of the gospel of Jesus. Jesus Christ. And so this is another area where Joseph Smith is using his perceived authority to get people to do what he needs them to do in exchange for promises he never has to deliver. This goes all the way back to our first episode on Treasure Digging. In this case, Joseph Smith is holding a fake wedding between Joseph Kingsbury and Sarah Ann Whitney to keep the public off of his track. In exchange for Kingsbury's complicity, Joseph Smith promises that he will be able to be sealed to his deceased wife in the afterlife, which, of course, Joseph never actually has to deliver.

John Dehlin [01:30:24] Wow. So he's staging a fake marriage of Sarah Whitney with some other dude so that. So that he can hide his marriage to her. Is that right?

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:30:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:38] What do you think, Alicia?

Alicia (faith unraveled) [01:30:42] What occurs to me here also is just this common thread of playing on people's emotional distress, you know, promising Joseph Kingsbury. I was familiar with this story, by the way, before I prepped for this. But, yeah, it's like, can you imagine presenting this as a Sunday school teacher? Like, well, you know, he made this arrangement so that it looked like she was married to him instead. But also just playing on the. Of the heartache of Joseph Kingsbury having lost his wife. And he's willing to do this because he wants to be with his wife in the eternities. And that's another common thread that we see in the church, that people are so desperate to be with their loved one that they've lost, that they're willing to. You know, I mean, this is. This is the whole selling point. Sorry, I know that probably sounds offensive, but it really is the selling point. Eternal families. So we see this in the instance of Joseph Kingsbury. And didn't he also at one point try to be reimbursed for the financial distress he was.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:31:48] Yeah, he tried to get reimbursed for caring for. I think. And they wouldn't give it to him. I. I think that's how it went.

Alicia (faith unraveled) [01:31:53] Yeah. So this wasn't like a loving relationship. This was, you know.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:31:57] Yeah.

Alicia (faith unraveled) [01:31:58] Did it because he wanted to be with his wife. And that's sad. That's sad.

John Dehlin [01:32:02] Yeah. Oh, I don't know how anybody can feel okay. About this. The optics of this are just.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:32:08] Yeah. And, you know, it's hard to read too much into people's words sometimes, but Joseph Kingsbury says, and no one have power to take her from me. And I could just Picture Joseph Smith being like Joseph or. Yeah, Joseph Kingsbury. Right, Joseph Kingsbury. Hey, if you don't do this, some other dude could take your wife from you in the eternities. And you don't want to see your wife having sex with this other dude for eternity. So you probably should do this favor I'm asking of you because I can make sure you get it. It's just, just, it's really, you know, I'm sure someone would listen to me say that and say, oh my goodness, you are being so twisting with, with this. But read this letter and look at how Joseph Smith appears to be proposing to him. Which is to say, if you will have the sham wedding to protect me from being found out for what I'm doing, I'm going to make sure you can be with your wife and make sure that no one else can take her from you in the eternities. Which again is. Yeah, it's just, it's, it's very coercive, not just to the women in this case, but to this guy because he's grieving. And Joseph uses that to exploit him to basically have to, to live a fake marriage with another woman for a long time to cover up what Joseph's doing. It's, this is a bigger implication than just some wedding day. He has to like, be his pretend husband and wife for years. And that has a lot of, a lot of things that happen beyond just one day of a fake wedding.

John Dehlin [01:33:23] Okay, Alicia, anything on this one or should we go to the next level slide?

Alicia (faith unraveled) [01:33:28] Yeah, I think go to the next slide. We've got. Okay, good insights on the next slide too.

John Dehlin [01:33:33] So we've got a quick recap of the deception of the Sarah and Whitney marriage.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:33:37] Yeah. And so just to recap this, this fake marriage was indeed held and Kingsbury lived in the Whitney home to provide cover to the public that they were husband and wife. But in reality, Sarah Anne was Joseph's in every sense of the word. Even upon Joseph Smith's death, Sarah Ann Whitney was married to Heber C. Kimball, not Joseph Kingsbury. To recap kind of the deception here, Joseph sent Sarah Ann's brother on a mission because he knew that Horace might disapprove of the marriage. Sent a letter to the Whitney's to visit only when Emma was gone. Held a fake marriage for Sarah Ann to deceive both his wife and the church and all the members, you know, all of his followers, and then promised Joseph Kingsbury exaltation with his deceased, deceased wife for being complicit in the lie. And so that's a lot of, a lot of work to do here to have another polygamous marriage.

John Dehlin [01:34:20] I mean, if, if. How old, how old was Sarah and Whitney?

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:34:25] I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:34:26] Like, I almost want to think that this, this one marriage has almost every problematic element of, of Joseph's behavior because, you know, the parents are involved, their promises versus threats. There's sending people on missions, there's creating fake sham things Emma doesn't know. And if she's underaged and it's polyandrous, like this might be the grand slam of, of Joseph Smith's problematic behavior.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:34:58] Anna had the, Anna had the angel with the drawn sword and she was 17, so. 17.

John Dehlin [01:35:03] So underaged, underage. Yeah, this might be the most problematic of all. I mean, I guess Helen Marr would, would be a, would be a tie.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:35:13] But Lucy Walker I think is too. But I mean, like, it just shows like this one has. Outside of she didn't live with Joseph prior, but yeah, the angel with the drawn sword. Angel with the drawn sword. Getting the parents complicit. 17 year old girl, sham marriage, promising exaltation not just to her family, but to Joseph Kingsbury's family. It's just all this bargaining going on so that he can marry a 17 year old girl. It's just, it's crazy to me.

Emma Smith, the Relief Society, and Denying Plural Marriage

John Dehlin [01:35:37] Okay. All right, well, the next slide is Emma tries to undercut Joseph in the Relief Society.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:35:45] Yeah, and this one is interesting because it kind of shows that Emma knows something's going on. And at the same time she also realizes that she can use Relief Society to try to undercut it. And so on March 31, 1842, Joseph Smith writes a letter that is to be read to the Relief Society about spiritual wifery that was being practiced by those close to Joseph. We're going to talk about that a lot in the next episode.

John Dehlin [01:36:10] That's the William, that's the John C. Bennett stuff, right?

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:36:13] The John C. Bennett stuff. And his brother William Smith as well.

John Dehlin [01:36:16] Yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:36:17] And so Emma was obviously concerned about this. And so she's using the Relief Society to try to weed out polygamy. And this is from Thinker of Thoughts, which is by Jonathan Streeter. And so what he did is he did a textual analysis of this statement. And if you're watching this, the part that is shaded in blue is what Emma is going to leave out of the statement when she reads it. And it's really important. So I'll also read it carefully.

John Dehlin [01:36:40] Should we have Alicia read it? Should we have Alicia go ahead and

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:36:43] read that, because that's something Emma would have read from Joseph.

Alicia (faith unraveled) [01:36:47] Do you want me to read the blue part?

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:36:49] That whole quote starting with, we have been informed.

Alicia (faith unraveled) [01:36:52] Okay. We've been informed that some unprincipled men whose names we will not mention at present have been guilty of such crimes. We do not mention their names, not knowing but what. There may be some among you who are not sufficiently skilled in masonry as to keep a secret. Therefore, suffice it to say there are those. And we therefore warn you and forewarn you in the name of the Lord to check and destroy any faith that any innocent person may have in any such character. For we do not want anybody who. Anybody. One to believe anything as coming from us, contrary to the old established morals and virtues and scriptural laws regulating the habits, customs and conduct of faith, unless it be by the message delivered to you by our own mouth, by actual revelation and commandment Society.

John Dehlin [01:37:46] Okay, translate that for us, Mike.

Alicia (faith unraveled) [01:37:49] So, kind of mixed up.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:37:50] No, no, you're good. So Emma's going to read the statement to the Relief Society. And what she does is when she reads it, she leaves out the clause says, basically, we're do not believe anything is coming from us, meaning Joseph Smith. And then she leaves out the part where it says, unless it be by message delivered to you by our own mouth, by actual revelation and commandment. So Emma Smith leaves that out to make it say, do not believe anyone telling you that this is from God, whereas Joseph Smith wanted it to say, do not believe this, this is coming from us, unless we come and tell you it was from God. So she, I think, is getting the. The idea that Joseph Smith is using the idea of revelation to convince these women to marry and have sex with them. And so she leaves that part out so that all the women in Relief Society don't. Wouldn't be as open to Joseph Smith coming and saying, hey, God told me that you're. You've been given to me. And so it just shows that Emma is trying everything she can to stop what Joseph Smith is doing. And it's just. It's really sad.

John Dehlin [01:38:49] Yeah. Yeah. It's almost like she's adopting some of that scriptural language, some of the King James English, to try and put out her own prophecies, her own, you know, commandments, so to speak.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:39:03] Well, yeah. And like, this statement is written by Joseph. So the fact that she's cutting that out just shows that she knows exactly what he's trying to get to here. She knows by putting that clause. And Joseph is Saying, here's my loophole that we're going to listen to the scriptures unless God tells you otherwise through me, Joseph. And so she's leaving it out, out to try to make sure the women don't hear that. So that if someone comes to him or if Joseph comes to him later and says, hey, God gave you to me, she'd be like, well, why in the Relief Society didn't you. Did you tell us not to listen to that? You know, and so it's. It doesn't work, obviously, but it's just shows that Emma's trying so hard to root this out, and it's. Obviously, she's failing at it.

John Dehlin [01:39:39] Well, let's jump to the Relief Society statement denying polygamy, October 1st, 1842.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:39:44] Yeah. And so after this, about what, six, six months later or something, they do the statement on October 1st, 1842. And. Do you want to read this, Alicia?

Alicia (faith unraveled) [01:39:53] Oh, sure. Let me just expand this real quick. We, the undersigned members of the Ladies Relief Society and married females do certified and declare that we know of no system of marriage being practiced in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, save the one contained in the Book of doctrine and covenants 15. And we give this certificate to the public to show that J.C. bennett secret wife system is a disclosure of his own make.

John Dehlin [01:40:25] And it's signed Emma Smith, president Elizabeth Ann Whitney, who, Mike, you're saying was. Was married to Joseph. No, her daughter was married to Joseph. Yeah, with her knowledge.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:40:38] Right, With Elizabeth knowledge. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:40:41] And then Sarah Cleveland, who was married to Joseph Smith. Elizar Snow, who is married to Joseph Smith. It looks like what you're saying there, Mike, is that this statement that Emma sort of like distributes as part of the Relief Society was signed by a bunch of women who were married to Joseph, unbeknownst to Emma. Is that what you're saying?

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:41:04] Yeah, it just shows, like. So she's got two counselors, like you see in modern day. Right. So imagine going to your Relief Society meeting on Sunday and having the president going, reading a statement. But how people shouldn't be doing, you know, we're not practicing any extramarital affairs. And her two counselors and her secretary are all involved in relationships, polygamous relationships with her husband. I mean, it's just sad because Emma doesn't know. And these women, the two counselors and the secretary are signing a statement that they know is absolute crap. And so it just shows all of the deception happening all around Emma. I'm sure she realizes there where there's Smoke, there's fire kind of a thing, but at the same time, it just shows that one lying for the Lord is a real thing. The church repeatedly lies to protect themselves. We see that all the time in the early church. We see it today. But more importantly, in this case, Emma is trying to rally the Relief Society against polygamy. And the people that are closest to her are either married and having sex with Joseph, or they have a daughter that's married and probably having. I think. I don't care if Sarah and Whitney was confirmed to have sex with him or not, but. But, you know, it's just. It's really sad, and it just shows the level of deception that Joseph Smith is engaging in all around Emma.

John Dehlin [01:42:15] And I can almost see, like, cinematically the scene, the scene where Emma's reading this to the Relief Society, maybe Joseph's behind her, and then these other polygamous wives or counselors are all behind Emma, kind of smiling at each other as Emma's reading it to the Relief Society. What's your take on Alicia?

Alicia (faith unraveled) [01:42:38] Oh, my gosh, John, we must be so in sync. This is literally the exact thought I had. I was thinking, okay, every once in a while you hear about someone who wants to make a film about Joseph Smith's life. So I'm going to say it right now. Any filmmakers within the sound of my voice. You cannot leave this out. I mean, can you imagine? This could be the opening scene of the movie, And I guess the question would be, like, what kind of music is playing? Is it, like, comical? Is it, like an epic sadness? But this is just totally wild. This is one of the, to me, craziest moments in Mormon history.

John Dehlin [01:43:14] Yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:43:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:43:15] And it explains why Emma gets so furious later and why ultimately, not only does Joseph, you know, have to come up with the revelation to. To beat Emma down and threaten her with all these threats, but also why he sends Hyrum to tell Emma she wasn't angry because she was just necessarily a person disposed to anger. She was angry because she had been made a fool, not just by Joseph, but by all these women who I'm sure she thought were her friends. And then she finds out that, you know, not only had all these friends betrayed her as well, but that there were 22 women sealed to Joseph before Emma ever got, you know, the chance to be sealed to him. I'd. I'd be furious. I.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:44:02] You know, I mean, you just. You look like such an idiot. And it's so sad because obviously, I mean, I. Not only would you be betrayed by your husband. But you're betrayed by those who are closest to you in the church because they're having sex with your husband behind your back. I just.

John Dehlin [01:44:15] Yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:44:16] I can't even imagine. To Alicia's point. Yeah. Like, if you were to do it like a. A TV series, and I'd be. I would. I've thought of different ways where you could write it, and it's really hard to think. Like you said, would it be. Be comical? Would it be drama? Would it be a mix? And I just. I don't even know how you do this because it's so painful to think about. And. But yeah. And to your point, John, I want to read this. I thought of this a few episodes ago. This is from William Clayton's journal. And this is right when everything is going down with Emma. This is from August 23rd, 1843. And it says President Joseph told me that he had difficulty with Emma yesterday. She rode up to Woodworth's with them and called him while he came to the temple. When he returned, she was demanding the gold watch of f. I'm not sure whose gold watch that is. He reproved her for her evil treatment. On the return home, she abused him much. And also when he got home, he had to use harsh measures to put a stop to her abuse, but have finally succeeded. This evening, I had some more conversation with Margaret and find she is stubborn and disposed to abuse me. I feel resolved to break my feelings from her if I possibly can. So. So it's just. This is a quote you hear of once more. Joseph talks how he had to use harsh measures.

John Dehlin [01:45:23] Who's that from? Whose journals?

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:45:24] That's from William Clayton's journal.

John Dehlin [01:45:26] Okay.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:45:26] Who was obviously with Joseph all the time. So he's saying that Joseph Smith told him that day that Emma was basically gave him a hard time, and he had to use harsh measures to put a stop to it. So what that means, I don't know, but just shows the pain and the torment that goes through what Joseph's doing to Emma willingly behind her back for years.

John Dehlin [01:45:45] Yeah. And it also helps explain why she would deny polygamy ever happened just because it was such a nightmare.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:45:50] Yeah. And you look like an idiot because you're like, yeah, he was doing it behind my back for years with people closest to me. I just. It's. Yeah, it's bad.

Grooming Tactics in Joseph Smith's Proposals

John Dehlin [01:45:57] All right, well, let's jump to now. Joseph Smith and the idea of grooming his followers.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:46:02] Yes. This is one that's going to probably be one that a lot of believers will feel very emotional towards and I get it, but I think we need to talk about, since the word groomers has been used so much recently in different aspects of politics, which we're not going to get into, but I do want to talk about what people consider to be grooming and if Joseph Smith fits into that. And so I was looking online and a very basic definition of grooming is to befriend and establish an emotional connection with another person, typically a minor, but not always. And sometimes the child slash victim's family to lower the child's inhibitions with the objective of sexual abuse or activity. And so, so as we've done these, these accounts, every element of grooming from this definition is evident in Joseph Smith's proposals to these young women. Not only does he create a highly charged emotional connection with these girls by being the self proclaimed prophet of God, but he uses situations where they're living in Joseph's home where they lost a parent and they're extremely vulnerable to teach them the idea of polygamy so that they will be more open to accepting it. We have a few of these stories we just talked about today where he works with their family, families to normalize polygamy, often making grand promises and bargains in order to facilitate marriages to their children. And just to finish again, what would you say if this was any other adult without invoking special pleading for Joseph Smith?

John Dehlin [01:47:24] Okay, Alicia, what's your reaction to that?

Alicia (faith unraveled) [01:47:28] I just, I was really glad, Mike, that you included this as part of our conclusion for this episode because I think it's so important and it probably sounds obvious to most people, but. But it's important to recognize that predatorial behavior is usually not scary. I mean, it's usually charming and lovable and persuasive. And I know not everyone will come to the same conclusion about Joseph Smith, but I think it's important to call out behaviors for what they are. And as I go through the history and I dissect it, that's what these behaviors look like to me. They look consistent with, with, with grooming.

John Dehlin [01:48:10] Yeah, yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:48:12] And it's uncomfortable. I know that. It's just it this again, we're trying to look at this with what the data tells us. And if you're going to use a traditional definition of what grooming tactics are, this fits way too perfectly for what Joseph Smith was doing.

John Dehlin [01:48:27] So let's jump to the slide, recapping the tactics that might fall under grooming. Yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:48:33] And so we've talked about this at the beginning of this episode again, but just to recap the themes that go through a lot of these proposals, especially with the younger women. Joseph Smith is going to marry girls that are living in Joseph Smith's house, where he has access to them, where he's able to kind of condition them and get them ready and prepared for his proposals. Using older wives to recruit the younger wives. Again, you're going to have these older wives in a lot of ways are going to help groom these women, these young girls to accept something that they know goes against everything that they've ever believed in with regards to what a loving relationship is and you know, what the sanctity of marriage is proposing to girls that are in vulnerable situations. You're often seeing in these cases that a parent died or, you know, we have some of them where they've got their, you know, brother sent on a mission, or they're being told that if they don't, you're going to have an angel come and kill you. Which is another point making great promises in exchange for marriage. So you're trying to get them to forego their, their moral compass by saying, if you do this thing for me, I can provide all of these things for you. The angel with the drawn, sir, which we just mentioned. And so, you know, just again, like, if you look at these tactics and you put them as Warren jets or David Koresh or even somebody who is running, you know, Nexium or someone who is running a business where they were doing this to people that were subordinate to them. What would you call it, if not grooming?

Alicia (faith unraveled) [01:49:53] Yeah, Another big one is getting the parents involved too. Getting the whole family groomed. There is often a whole family grooming process that goes on.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:50:03] Yeah, because you'll hear in a lot of those stories where they'll actually say, yeah, the, the, the, the person who was doing the grooming of a child usually actually befriended the parents, which allowed them to have easier access to the target. And so in this case, you've got Joseph Smith. We just, today we talked about two of them where he is basically making these marriages happen with the parents consent. And like in Helen Mars case, the mom, you, you could, from the, her own words, the mom clearly thought was, was, was horrified by it. And in the Whitney cases, they, they resisted until the angel with the Drawn Sword story. So this is like, like Alicia said, this is where you've got Joseph Smith, just as we talk about the grooming where you're befriending the parents as well in order to gain better access and not be refused as well. Because I think a lot of times. Like, for example, if my kid was going and I knew there was someone older that was spending a little too much time with him, I'd be like, dude, you got to get away. But if that guy befriends me, it gives him better access. It also kind of of takes away some of my resistance. And that is what you see in these tactics that Joseph Smith uses in these proposals.

John Dehlin [01:51:02] That's a great point, Alicia. Thank you. All right, well, this brings us to the last, last slide of this portion on Joseph Smith's polygamy proposals, which is the conclusion. What's the conclusion, Mike?

Conclusion, Preview, and Closing Thoughts

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:51:16] Yeah, so just as we have been discussing throughout this episode, Joseph Smith uses a number of patterns that occur in his proposals, all of which I would contend fall very cleanly under the idea and definition of grooming or coercing women into situations that they would never engage in without the added pressure of believing that the prophet of God was asking them to do it in the name of God. We still have two more episodes to go on. Polygamy. It doesn't necessarily get better from here, but I just wanted to leave with this kind of ironic quote from Joseph smith. It's from DNC121, verse 39. It says, we have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men. As soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion. And it just shows that as Joseph Smith gets more power, more followers in the church, he starts to do more and more things that we look at today and go, that's insane. And it just to me, kind of feels ironic to read that in DNC121 because that kind of describes a lot of what Joseph Smith was doing.

John Dehlin [01:52:18] And we've noted previously that that, that DNC 121 sort of teaching about coercion should apply to God and Jesus too. So God shouldn't be threatening Emma with being damned, destroyed if she doesn't agree with polygamy. God shouldn't be coercing 14 year olds or 16 year olds with threats about their beloved prophet being murdered by an angel. That, you know, I think that unrighteous dominion thing applies to God and Jesus as well as Joseph.

Alicia (faith unraveled) [01:52:52] Yeah, that's a really great point.

John Dehlin [01:52:54] Yeah. So next. What's next up, Mike?

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:52:58] So next episode is we have the Happiness Letter to Nancy Rigdon, which I will argue is the most important document we have on Mormon polygamy. And it's one of the ones that I think the least is just not well known, especially by members of the church. And we're going to do an episode on that and looking at Jonathan Streeter's presentation that he did at Sunstone, and because we have Joseph Smith's own words, it shows us the exact ways that he's phrasing and trying to effectively sell polygamy to women who are rejecting his initial advances. And so. So I honestly think it's probably the most important document in polygamy of all Mormonism. And I think more members need to be aware of it. And once they are, they can do with it what they want. But I think everyone needs to understand what that letter is in the context it was written in.

John Dehlin [01:53:50] All right, well, I'm just going to remind everyone as we conclude that they can read all. You know, there was somebody in a comment today, Mike, I don't know if you saw it on YouTube, where it's like they found an error in one of our episodes and they're like, oh, well, Mike. And LDS discussions has lost all authority with me because they made a mistake. I don't even know if the mistake was accurate. But what I said is, don't have faith in us. In the comments in YouTube, I said, don't have faith in us. Go look at the footnotes. Don't believe anything we say. Believe the source documents. And so that's why I'm just going to say, you know, check out ldsdiscussions.com polygamy proposals. Because we don't want you to just believe Alicia or Mike or me. We want you to just look at the evidence. And if we make mistakes, they're the mistakes of men. Oh, wait, am I quoting someone about. That was a joke. That was a joke. Also, I just want to remind people that you can get the entire LDS discussion series, either in audio or in video format, either on Spotify as a standalone series, or you can go to Mormon Stories podcast, YouTube channel channel, find the LDS discussions playlist, and you can get all those episodes there. All right, so, Alicia, thank you so much for joining us. You're. It's so lovely to have you.

Alicia (faith unraveled) [01:55:09] Thanks for having me on, guys. I really have enjoyed the research here. I have a disproportionate passion for Mormon history. I just think it's so important, even as for faithful members, to understand the genesis of maybe some of the patterns and cultural practices in the church today and where those come from. And I, you know, I think it's important, really important. So, anyway, thanks for letting me be part of the conversation and I will say it again. I am not a scholar or a historian. I literally am just a lifelong consumer of Mormon doctrine. And so, anyway, I appreciate being able to put my two cents in. I'm not as well read as Mike, who has just done an incredible job with this research and presentation. So I've just learned so much through this process. So, anyway, thank you. Well, we think part of the conversation.

John Dehlin [01:56:05] We think you're a brilliant woman, Alicia, and it's so Mormon for women to kind of minimize their contribution and devalue, you know, what they offer. We think you're a brilliant and an essential part of this conversation. And check out Faith unraveled on TikTok. Alicia does a great job there, there.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:56:22] Yeah, you did. You did great. And, like, you were like, immediately the person where I was like, I want you to be on these episodes because you're, like I said, your presentation, your approach is just so kind. And so I again, thank you for taking all the time to do these episodes with us, because I know it's a lot of time, and it's a goofy. You know, it's a. It's a subject that can be kind of emotional. So. But, you know, seriously, thanks so much for being a part of it because it was a huge help for us to have you here. And like I said, I love the way you approach this stuff.

Alicia (faith unraveled) [01:56:47] I appreciate you guys.

John Dehlin [01:56:48] Plus, you and Jamie are fun to karaoke with.

Alicia (faith unraveled) [01:56:51] Yes, we are.

John Dehlin [01:56:54] All right, everyone.

Alicia (faith unraveled) [01:56:55] The dancing and the karaoke.

John Dehlin [01:56:56] Yeah, it's all fun. All right, thanks again, Mike. You're brilliant. Thanks, Alicia. Thanks again, listeners and viewers for joining us on Mormon Stories. If you value this content and want to see it continue, please consider a donation. Go to MormonStories.org, click on the donate button at the top of the page. Become a monthly donor corner, and we'll keep this content around for a very long time to pay it forward. Be kind to each other, be good to each other, be loving to each other, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care, everybody.

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