Welcome and Episode Introduction

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 1095

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Sa. Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, or at least traditionally I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's April 9, 2019. We have a few just super quick announcements and I promise to make them super quick.

John Dehlin [00:00:50] Tomorrow, April 10th at 7:00pm Community of Christ. I'll be doing a free workshop at in the continuing series on helping people navigate a faith crisis. We'll be talking about rebuilding your life after a faith Crisis. This weekend, April 12th and 13th, Julie D' Azevedo Hanks and I are co leading a retreat for mixed faith marriages. We're super excited about that. There are a few spots left, so go to mormonfaithcrisis.com events if you want to register for that.

News About a Disciplinary Council

John Dehlin [00:01:20] And then I have some kind of sobering news that some of you are aware of. One of the most important interviews of the past year, or I'd say potentially in the Life of Mormon Stories podcast is my interview with Leah and Cody and Brinley Young. It's this phenomenal family in Columbus, Ohio who did an interview talking about their faith journey, their loss of faith in Mormonism and how they've handled that as humans and as parents.

John Dehlin [00:01:53] We found out last week that Cody and Leah have been called to a disciplinary council specifically for creating a support group. So it's not for, you know, anything that they've said. It's not for any act other than when they were lonely, when they were sad, when they were struggling in Columbus without any community or support. After, you know, stopping their church attendance, they formed a Facebook group to support progressive and post Mormons in Columbus, Ohio. And it's a small group, it's a very positive group. It's a very healing group.

John Dehlin [00:02:37] But you know, a month or however long ago they were called in by their stake president and told that if they didn't disband the group they would be excommunicated. And you know, they responded very graciously and lovingly by inviting the Stake president and Stake Presidency and bishops to come to the support group so they could see that it wasn't an anti Mormon group, it wasn't an apostate group. It was purely a support group for people who were alone or sad or just lonely and needed friendship. And the Stake Presidency declined to attend any of the support meetings. And then in a letter just a few days ago, Cody and Leo were notified that a disciplinary council would be held.

John Dehlin [00:03:27] That's going to be April 14th in the evening. I believe it's at 6:30. I could have that time wrong. But if you want to find a way to support Brinley and Cody and Leah and their wonderful family, I'm sure they would love any expressions of support that you have for them through email or text through however you want to show them your appreciation. If people want to either come to Columbus, Ohio to the event, to the Stake center, like we did for Bill Rio, like we did for Sam Young, like we've tried to do for Jeremy Runnels and anyone who faces excommunication, I'm sure the that support would be welcome.

John Dehlin [00:04:16] If folks want to find a way over social media or in their own geographical locations. If they want to find a way to show their support for Leah and Cody and Brinley Young and their wonderful family, I encourage you to do so.

John Dehlin [00:04:33] You know we understand that the church can feel scared sometimes to have progressive and post Mormons forming community, but we see this as a really unfortunate turn. So we would love the Youngs to feel your love and support as much as possible. So please do what you can to love and support them.

John Dehlin [00:04:57] June 7th through 9th we're having a Thrive Conference in Salt Lake City which is an event 100% focused on healing and joy and growth for post Mormons. We we have such an amazing lineup of speakers. Natasha Alfred Parker, Margi Dehlin, David Bachavoy, Julie Dezevedo Hanks.

John Dehlin [00:05:22] So many cool speakers. I don't have the list with me now. Jenny Morrow is going to be there. So many others. If you are looking for healing and growth and community going through a faith crisis, we're going to spend a whole weekend doing that and celebrating it. So if you want to go to mormonfaithcrisis.com events, there's a link to all these events.

John Dehlin [00:05:48] These events aren't officially sponsored by the Open Stories Foundation. They're sponsored right now by the center for Religious and Secular Progress, which is separate from the osf. But please go to that page if you want to register for any of these events.

John Dehlin [00:06:05] We've had over 50 people already register for the Thrive event. We only have 90 slots available, so please come if you're interested. We'd love to have you. So that's all for the announcements. Normally it's usually my habit to say I'm super excited for all my interviews today. I'm not going to say that because I don't feel that I don't feel super excited for today's interview.

Margi Dehlin Turns the Tables as Interviewer

John Dehlin [00:06:34] Several weeks ago or a month ago, I don't know how long ago, Margi just said to me hey, John, I really want to interview you. And I was really taken back by that for a couple reasons. One is because, you know, Margi's usually been very private, and, you know, she's been willing to come on Mormon Stories to do her own interview, which is one of my favorite interviews of all time. Not because she's my wife and I love her, but because of the wisdom she shares on that interview. And I know how many people have reached out to say how much that interview meant to her.

John Dehlin [00:07:09] But aside from that interview, Margi has not been on a lot of Mormon Stories episodes, if at all. We do do the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis podcast together with Natasha Helfer Parker, but Margi hasn't been on Mormon Stories, and. But anyway, when she showed an interest in interviewing me or coming on Mormon Stories podcast as a host, I was thrilled from that perspective, but I'm not thrilled to be interviewed.

John Dehlin [00:07:43] I don't feel like being interviewed. I don't want to be interviewed right now. That's not how I'm feeling. But I'm not going to turn my wonderful, brilliant wife down when she shows interest. So I'm torn and conflicted about this interview, but I'm going to turn the time over to Margi Delin as she is going to sit in the interviewer chair and interview me. And I'll just say, why in the heck did you want to do this?

Margi Dehlin [00:08:16] It's a valid question, babe. It really is. Well, I think I'm newer to the space, and I'm definitely newer to social media and how it works. And I think because of that, I have been noticing how you're portrayed and how oftentimes you're talked about or how you're seen, which is very like, I don't think you're seen in an incorrect way at all. I just think it's not really a whole multidimensional way all the time. So I just thought this would be a great way to humanize you a little bit and to kind of fill out some of those spaces. And you're in really good hands with me. And it's a way to do it kind of gently with someone who knows you and loves you, and so it will be okay.

John Dehlin [00:09:09] So you want to humanize me?

Margi Dehlin [00:09:11] Fill out. Fill you out a little bit. Right. I think Mormon Stories is part of what you do, and it's clearly part of who you are. And the real magic of Mormon Stories is clearly the stories. But this is a way just to have a little fun.

John Dehlin [00:09:30] All right, well, go ahead. Okay. So do your worst.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:34] So I came up with these questions. There are, I think, 28 total. We're not going long form today. I myself don't do four hour interviews. But what I will say is, you know, these questions I came up with on my own. And so we're gonna kind of start off with like a warm up question. Just a warmup fun. We're gonna let you just kind of put your feet in gently. Okay?

John Dehlin [00:10:05] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:10:06] Okay. So you love. Anyone who knows you knows that you love Baskin Robbins. So it's kind of a yummy treat place for you. What are some of your favorite flavors at Baskin Robbins? Johndalin?

John Dehlin [00:10:22] Well, I have two. Go to flavors at Baskin Robbins. Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:10:26] Yes, do tell.

John Dehlin [00:10:29] Daiquiri ice. So my mom noticed that we had milk allergies as kids, and so she often, for many, many years, wouldn't let me have milk based ice cream. So I developed a love for daiquiri ice, which is a standard non dairy ice cream flavor at Baskin Robbins. And I also later developed a love for mint chocolate chip. So yesterday I had a mint chocolate chip shake at Baskin Robbins. And those are my two favorite Baskin Robbins flavors.

Margi Dehlin [00:11:04] Thank you. That's a good day. Well done. Well, okay, so we're gonna. One question that I thought would be a great way to start was just kind of follow a follow up right to the excommunication process and how that, you know, we're years out now. I know with the Youngs, you know, emotions always kind of come to the surface for I feel like the both of us really, when another excommunication comes up. But, you know. So what was most surprising to you about the process of excommunication? It can be something you maybe you hadn't anticipated or something just, you know, straight out was surprising.

Reflections on Excommunication and Early Work

John Dehlin [00:11:55] There are probably a couple things about that, about the excommunication. I think that I went into it with a lot of, let's just say, energy and confidence. We'll talk about movies later. But, you know, I always wanted to stand for a cause. From a very young age, I always wanted to stand for a cause.

John Dehlin [00:12:20] I was inspired by Martin Luther King Jr. Growing up in Gandhi. I always regretted that I couldn't be a part of, you know, the civil rights movement in the 60s when it was happening. So I went into the excommunication sort of with that being this culmination of, you know, being punished for something I believed in or standing for a cause, which sounds, you know, as I'm hearing Myself say it. It sounds prideful or it sounds, you know, a little bit egoist. Egotistical.

John Dehlin [00:12:55] But I. But I, you know, felt like my intentions were sincere, that I was standing for LGBT Mormons, for same sex marriage, for, you know, I had just signed onto the ordained women sort of website, and of course, for a long time I had stood for doubting Mormons and questioning Mormons and for the church to be more transparent.

John Dehlin [00:13:21] So I did feel like I was standing for things that mattered. But I think I was surprised at how still hurtful it was. In other words, I thought it would just be a moment of confidence and of victory or vindication or whatever. And it was just really messy and hard emotionally. It felt really violent, even though I think the men who did it were doing it from a sincere place.

John Dehlin [00:13:54] So I was surprised at how hard and hurtful it was, But I was also very glad I did it because it gave me closure instead of just resigning and being able to sort of have people say, well, he just resigned.

John Dehlin [00:14:13] For me, the. The. It left no doubt that. That the church, in the way it was responding and to some degree kind of still is responding to challenges. It left me with no doubt that. That I was doing the right thing and that the church, let's just say, has a ways to go in the way that it handles things.

John Dehlin [00:14:44] But then afterwards, and we can get into this when we talk about kids, I think I was probably careless about the effects that it would have on our kids and on you and our relationship. And there are. There are flowers that have grown out of that turd, let's just say.

John Dehlin [00:15:08] And so I don't want to leave that ominously or negatively, but I think all of us bear scars from the social and emotional ramifications of the excommunication. And I think all of us are in therapy or in coaching or in counseling, in some ways, four years later, in part, trying to heal from the social and emotional wounds of the excommunication.

John Dehlin [00:15:39] And I think I had this naive confidence that if you stand for what you believe in, if you stand for what you think is right, that in the end it will always be a net positive. And I think, again, that was a little bit naive and careless. And I think the damage or the difficulties of the excommunication, I didn't. I think I was careless and I think I didn't fully grasp.

Margi Dehlin [00:16:13] You maybe underestimated.

John Dehlin [00:16:14] Yeah. What the real cost would be to each of our kids, to you, to me, and to our relationship and to our family. It basically just introduces A lot of trauma to everyone, individually, collectively, that takes years to try and make sense of and heal from.

Margi Dehlin [00:16:38] What do you love most about yourself

John Dehlin [00:16:41] as a part of this interview? Do you want to respond?

Margi Dehlin [00:16:43] Oh, are we making it conversational? You want me to respond?

John Dehlin [00:16:48] I want you to feel comfortable responding whenever you have responses that you'd like to share. Because I think if there's one thing's for sure, our audience, this audience loves you and respects you. And so I will always welcome your wisdom. Well, if you're willing to share or vulnerability or whatever.

Margi Dehlin [00:17:11] I think the only thing I would say from that, I think I share in, you know, what you're talking about with regard to the impact maybe that it had. There's a reason why I think it was one of my fears kind of going into. And I think I underestimated some of the ways in which it would go down. What I would say is, you know, for me, I see a lot of, you know, from our wounds. Oftentimes we. The wounds give birth to attributes or sensitivities that then become gifts. And I do see that with our children who now are highly compassionate about anyone who's othered or, you know, may not share the amount of privilege that they have. I think they're very aware of things like that. So, you know, I definitely. It's a mixed bag, right, from suffering and from painful experiences. I think there are wounds and then there are gifts. So.

John Dehlin [00:18:34] Yeah, and we shouldn't minimize the gifts that have come out of the excommunication. But it's hard to see your kids and your family suffer, too. But it's also great to see them grow. But.

Margi Dehlin [00:18:50] Yeah, and they are growing and coming into their own now. They're reckoning, you know.

John Dehlin [00:18:54] Yeah.

What John Loves Most About His Work

Margi Dehlin [00:18:56] Okay. So what do you love most about your job? What do you love most about what you do? You've had a number of jobs in your adult life.

John Dehlin [00:19:06] Yeah. I've mentioned this in other interviews, but one of the most inspiring movies to me growing up was a movie called you'd Can't Take it with youh. It's by the same director that made It's a wonderful life and Mr. Smith goes to Washington. His name's Frank Capra.

John Dehlin [00:19:25] And the basic premise of the movie is have a job that's meaningful because just making money isn't going to fulfill you, and you can't take it with you when you die. So you may as well make the most of the time that you have. And I saw that as a BYU student in Theater and Film Art Analysis 117 with Charles Metton. And that movie just always stuck with me. I also saw it, my brother, I think, well, my high school put it on when I was growing up. So I just always loved that movie and I took that with me. So as I advanced in my career at Microsoft and MIT and other places, I had financial and occupational success, but I just got more and more depressed.

John Dehlin [00:20:13] So Mormon Stories was an outgrowth of me realizing I had to either find a meaningful job or I would implode emotionally. And you live that as you hear me talk about that. So I left Microsoft having no idea, just taking a massive, massive pay cut, having no idea what it would turn into. But I'm really, really grateful that I'm at least for the past few years and I've only been doing this full time, three years, three and a half years.

John Dehlin [00:20:49] I'm just so grateful that I was able to. I've been able for at least a few years to have a full time meaningful job where every day I don't question, I may question my effectiveness, I may question mistakes I make or decisions I make or ways that I do or don't do harm, but I don't ever question that this work is meaningful to people.

John Dehlin [00:21:18] It's basically trying to educate people about Mormonism, past, present and future, so that they can take control of their lives and engage in Mormonism or choose to not engage in Mormonism, kind of with full consent and full knowledge.

John Dehlin [00:21:37] When people are birthed from, let's say Fowler Stage 3 Mormonism or Orthodox Mormonism or on, you know, mindful Mormonism and are birthed out of that into either progressive liberal Mormonism that's a bit more informed and conscious, or post Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:21:57] You know, what I hear from them, either directly or unspoken, is thank you for giving me my life back. Thank you for bringing me to a higher level of consciousness about what I'm doing with my money, my time, my energies.

John Dehlin [00:22:15] And I feel like, like I feel really good about helping people through that process. And my intent is never, literally, my intent has never been to lead people out of the church. It's only been to help people see what they're a part of and engage in it, or not engage in it with full knowledge. And then the, the outgrowth from that, in the past it's been these workshops and retreats. Now it's the gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis podcast and other things, the Thrive Conference. But there's this question of what's next that I think is.

John Dehlin [00:22:52] Has to be as important. It has to be more important than the work of awakening people. Because whether or not Mormon stories were to awake a lot of people, they would be awakened one way or another, because religion is in decline in the Western world, and we've relied on it for morality, for identity, for spirituality, for community, for family.

John Dehlin [00:23:19] And it's been the bedrock of civilization for centuries, whether it's Mormonism or Christianity or other things. But now that it's deteriorating and collapsing and it's not going to die, but it's certainly eroding. The fastest growing religious group is those who are no longer religious affiliated. And as of this year, it's also the largest religious group. So the single largest religious group in the US Is those who are not religious.

John Dehlin [00:23:52] As that grows, we don't know how to build community with that religion. We don't know how to build identity. So sometimes with that religion, we don't know how to build spirituality with that religion. Or at least we're very new or young at it as a species, as a. As a community, as a civilization.

John Dehlin [00:24:10] So I don't doubt the value of that either. And so as imperfect as our work is, and as new as our work is, I get to wake up every morning knowing that I'm engaged in a work that is at least trying to be a positive difference in people's lives.

John Dehlin [00:24:33] And that's incredibly. It feels a little bit indulgent. It feels like a privilege, like a luxury, because most people don't get to wake up with. With that being how they, you know, they have to make a living, they have to do whatever job they. They have, and they're going to have some joy and not joy out of the job. But, you know, I think at least for the few years I've been able to do this, it's been incredibly rewarding to be that for people. So that's what I love about what I do. And of course, the relationships and the impact on people that I get the feeling that it's been overwhelmingly positive.

John Dehlin [00:25:16] And then to have them come back and say, thank you, thank you, thank you for your positive impact in my life and in my family's life, whether it's saving lives, saving marriages. That never gets old. To hear people say thank you for what the work of the Open Stories foundation of Mormon Stories has meant to people. So that's a long answer, but it's, you know, next to family, it's the most important thing I do in life. So thanks for indulging me.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:45] No, that's great. Do you know something that I really love about what you do that I think is really important. Tell me is I love this idea of the power of story, and I think Mormon stories really shines a light on that. And on a level, it. For many people, as they're going through, you know, a time when they're feeling very alone, we live kind of in a weird time where we have access to so many people and we're, you know, inundated, I think, with people's lives and personal, but we oftentimes can feel more isolated than ever. And I love this idea of people being met with a person's story.

Margi Dehlin [00:26:31] I can feel alone, but then I can in one instant hear someone's story and realize I'm really not alone. And it's a very intimate way, and it's hard to argue with. It's a really. It's a very genius way of conveying nuance and, I don't know, complexity in a way that you can't. It's. It's difficult to refute someone's experience, and it's. And you emotionally oftentimes connect with it. And that emotional connection, as we know, is what really influences people versus, you know, their rational kind of sense of things.

John Dehlin [00:27:12] But, yeah, yeah, I'm super proud that I started with stories. Of all the things I could have started with. I'm proud that I started with stories, and I'm sure I'll end with stories. Yeah, yeah. Thank you for acknowledging that.

The Hardest Parts of Hosting Mormon Stories

Margi Dehlin [00:27:27] So what is something that can be really difficult about your job?

John Dehlin [00:27:33] There are a lot of things that are difficult about this job.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:37] Let me count the winners.

John Dehlin [00:27:39] One wouldn't do it justice.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:40] Yeah. Well, what's a standout or two?

John Dehlin [00:27:43] So the hardest part about this job for me by far has been, and the only way that it's survived and thrived has been forming and running a nonprofit. So we started. So I did Mormon Stories for pretty much no money, with no organization from 2005 to 2010. So for about five years, there were a little bit of donations, but it was like pennies per hour for what I was putting into it, and for many years received nothing. Um, but when I decided that I couldn't support my family as a grad student, when I got my, you know, started grad school after that first year, and I missed it so much, I made a deal with my listeners that I'd start a nonprofit and if they would donate not just to Mormon stories, but to the cause of creating communities of support for listeners like you or whatever, you know, that it would not just be a podcast they were donating to, but it would be a cause and even a movement, a movement of educating people about the church, a movement about forming community, a movement about creating other podcasts, all that stuff.

John Dehlin [00:29:06] Because I feel like people want to support a cause and a movement. And I felt like a nonprofit would be the right organizational structure, and it would allow people to donate and to get a tax deduction for their donations. It just felt like the right model and structure. But of course, I'd never. I had volunteered, I'd worked on Sunstone's board of directors, but I'd never worked for a nonprofit. I didn't know how nonprofits were run. I didn't know what it took to run a nonprofit. I just. A lawyer filled out all the paperwork, and then I read the basic rules, like form a board, have regular board meetings, be responsible with your accounting, report back to your donors every year what they donated, make sure you live the cause.

John Dehlin [00:29:55] So, I mean, so I, if I'm being just totally vulnerable and honest, I had no business starting a nonprofit in grad school just because it's its own animal. And. But I, but I didn't know of another way to do it.

John Dehlin [00:30:15] And so I started the nonprofit. And for those five years that I, you know, did grad school full time and then the nonprofit part time and Mormon Stories part time, you know, we. We had boards, we had board meetings, we took minutes.

John Dehlin [00:30:34] We always. We're super responsible with people's donations and money. And I'm proud that to this day, there's never been any financial question of note in or outside. You know, we've been transparent. While I'm grateful for all that and I'm proud of our impact, I never started Mormon Stories to run a nonprofit.

John Dehlin [00:31:01] And, and so it's incredibly difficult to run a nonprofit. You're always fundraising, you're always trying to make ends meet boards. And I've handpicked my boards, and I've had the most amazing board members. But boards are hard. At least I've had a hard time with boards.

John Dehlin [00:31:27] And not because my board members have been anything other than flawless. They really have been flawless. But I'm a very creative person. I'm a very opinionated person. I'm very kind of focused, and boards take care and feeding and love and support and empowerment. And I trying to do all the, you know, but my heart has always been like, number one with the podcast, number two with meeting one on one with people and having retreats and workshops, third, fourth, or fifth in, my priority has been running a nonprofit and keeping my board, taking care of my board, making them feel healthy and appreciated. When we brought on staff, again, it was like, if I'm just.

John Dehlin [00:32:24] And this sounds terrible to say, when I brought on staff, it was like, what are the things I don't want to have to do so that I can focus on helping people in the podcast and, you know, fundraising and, you know, in some sense, I had no business starting a nonprofit, no business calling people to a board, and no business hiring staff. Because what I really want to do, 60 hours a week, is podcast and meet one on one with people and do workshops and retreats to help them. But when you. When. As soon as your livelihood is based on the nonprofit, then you know, and you've got kids who need therapy, who need, you know, food and clothes, and there's a mortgage and they need to be sent to college, and all of a sudden you're still very much feeling the financial stresses of what you would as a provider.

John Dehlin [00:33:29] It can make you feel very fearful and controlling about losing your source of income that you've invested so much in. And that leads you to live in fear sometimes and paranoia and kind of a scarcity model that has just made.

John Dehlin [00:33:53] Made it really hard on everyone who's worked with me. So I'd say everyone. Everyone on. You know, I've tried to be grateful to everyone. I've tried to be kind to everyone. I've tried to be gracious to everyone. I've tried to be generous with everyone. But I think almost everyone who's worked with me would say John's hard to work with. John is.

John Dehlin [00:34:14] He's scared a lot. He operates from a. From a position of fear and maybe even a little bit of paranoia. And he's scatterbrained, and he takes on too much, and he, you know, he burns bridges. And so. So that's. That's been super hard. So there's that and then there's just the fact that being a public figure comes with scrutiny, but not just scrutiny. In this polarizing field of religious discourse and secular discourse, you can't avoid making enemies. And not just enemies about people that will say, he says I'm too much, or, you know, he.

John Dehlin [00:35:05] His interviews are too long or boring. Which, you know, obviously that's. That's to be expected. No, it's. It's people that grow to hate you sometimes for things you've done, and then sometimes for reasons you just will never understand.

John Dehlin [00:35:22] And from that will be people that want. That seem to want to destroy you. And having full knowledge of my tendency towards fear and paranoia.

Margi Dehlin [00:35:36] Nice awareness there.

John Dehlin [00:35:37] I have to check that. But at the same time, you know, that that's what I've experienced. People that want to do whatever they can to hurt you, to hurt your family, to hurt what you've built, and that. That's really hard. It's like you're always at emotional. It's always. It's like you're always in an emotional war. And that's not even counting the fact that we're in a very contentious space where the podcast that I do, the activism that we've tried to do, just can leave you feeling bloody on the battlefield. Just because you're fighting, you're trying to fight to change an organization that has many good things but tries to harm people. If you're in a battle mentality, you know, they say you live by the sword, you die by the sword. You're just always easily triggered into battle mode or fight mode or defensiveness mode.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:37] It's amygdala.

John Dehlin [00:36:38] It's all. Lots of amygdala. And so those things are very, very challenging. And then always having to make ends meet financially and always being fearful that with the wrong accusations, with the wrong attacks, everything could disappear. When you're in a point in your life where several kids are going to college, you've got to make the mortgage. You finally have to replace the cars after 18 years or 15 years and get cars that have functioning airbags. You know, it's like, oh, my gosh, you know, please don't let this go away right now when my family needs it so much. And that was a big answer. I don't think you. I don't know how much you expected me to go to all those places, but those are the hardest things about this job.

Margi Dehlin [00:37:29] Well, I'm feeling, like a ton of anxiety right now from that answer because there's a lot. I think it's true. I think you walk a lot. You know, you walk around carrying quite a bit to be in the space. And. And I think what I see is you're really working to be aware of your peace in that and where the fear comes from. You know, I do think you have clearly some things in your own story growing up that come into play here.

John Dehlin [00:38:00] Like what?

Margi Dehlin [00:38:02] Well, just money wise and stability wise. I think the story about your dad trying to, you know, have his own business and some of the things that you witnessed with how sudden that turned around and he had to declare bankruptcy and, you know, just some of those emotional experiences when you were in your formative years I do see those as, you know, you lived a reality that a lot of kids, they don't conceive of that, you know, but, you know, it happens. You saw it, you know, and you experienced it when you were feeling, you know, like life was pretty stable. So I just kind of see. I can see why, you know, it can feel heavy at times for you. And the awareness, I think, is. Is kind of crucial.

John Dehlin [00:38:51] Yeah. I have a long way to go.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:55] Well, awareness is the first step.

John Dehlin [00:38:56] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:57] It's not the final step. It's not the final journey, but it is something. Without it, there's nowhere to go. So, you know.

John Dehlin [00:39:03] Yeah.

Pivotal Interviews and Personal Growth

Margi Dehlin [00:39:05] So what are a few of the interviews you've done that were pivotal to you in your process?

John Dehlin [00:39:14] I've thought a lot about this, and there's a difference between, you know, certain interviews that really moved me and whether I've. I've allowed those interviews to really work their way into my heart, to change my heart and my behavior, because ultimately, I do like to have a growth mindset. But so when I think back to some of my favorite interviews, they're ones that most people won't remember. Like, I interviewed Steven Veazey, the president of Community of Christ, the president prophet of Community of Christ, or interviewed the three interfaith amigos, these Muslim imam, a rabbi, and a Christian priest. And I was really moved by all four of those men. The level of kindness and warmth and compassion that they carried. It was like, in their presence, I've. I felt like these are holy. Holy men. You know what I mean? I feel that with Carolyn Pearson as well, in many. In many respects.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:35] What are the. How would you describe that? What are the things that make you feel like they're holy men? That felt like what to you when you were with them? What made you feel that way?

John Dehlin [00:40:45] And I just want to add. I don't want to just give a list of men, because there are women, too. I've honestly, I felt it in your interview. I felt it with Carolyn Pearson. I felt it with Natasha Helfer Parker. And there's going to be a whole host of people that I'm not mentioning.

John Dehlin [00:41:03] A lot of the faith crisis interviews that I've done with families, whether it's the Hackings or the Youngs, the Youngs or the Booths or the Johnsons and the Chekitzes, and many of those families, you know, just grace under pressure, kindness, forgiveness, warmth, poise, those sorts of things. Those are the ones that impacted me the most. But I say that with the big asterisk because I don't think. Like, I think I've been so focused on surviving and achieving the objective of, you know, Mormon Stories and the Open Stories foundation that I have not taken the time to really let the feelings that I got. David Bachavoy is another example, by the way.

John Dehlin [00:42:01] I have not let the emotional impact of coming into contact with those beautiful people really change me because I. You know, you said this morning that I'm. I'm an. I have an avoidant personality. And I. And I think that's true.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:21] In love, right? In true warmth. I said that.

John Dehlin [00:42:25] Yeah. No, but. But really, like, I think I could easily be a depressed person. I think I could easily be. Just in some ways worse than I am. But. But always having a goal, always having a mission, always having a cause, always working hard. Let's. Is a. Is a way to keep the wheel in my. In my mind. It's the way to.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:51] It's control, coping.

John Dehlin [00:42:53] Yeah. It's a way to not unravel. It's a way to not be vanquished. It's a way to not let your emotions or enemies pull you down. Like, whenever I'm emotionally distressed, I can always just work, work, work, work, work, achieve, you know, and it brings a sense of, like, gratification. People are grateful. I feel fulfilled. I have a cause. I'm productive. And so it gives me all those creative warm fuzzies and accolade. Warm fuzzies. But it drains you. It drains me. But it comes at a cost of my own introspection and personal growth and development. Like, I. I have wielded the sword for so long now. 14 years.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:44] That I think being a warrior for a cause leaves you with battle scars and wounds and trauma that. And it never necessarily allows you to heal and to grow.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:01] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:44:05] So I think I lack. Now, why are you tearing up?

Margi Dehlin [00:44:13] Because I think you're being really vulnerable.

John Dehlin [00:44:20] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:22] Yeah, it makes sense to me. I think this really worked for you when the wheels came off your vehicle, when you were, you know, a teen. What worked for you? Your hustling worked. You got the best grades. You knew you were gonna have to kind of provide for yourself. That wasn't gonna be in the cards. You knew your parents probably couldn't take that on with all that they were. And I think it really worked in the sense that it brought you to the place you wanted to go and that you knew, you know, that you. That would help you build a life, in essence, you know, and. But yeah, that hustle. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:04] One thing after the excommunication. I'm sorry. After I lost my faith in 2001 and I had those years of depression, I had to make meaning out of it or I was going to get really depressed. Losing my faith, losing my source of spirituality, losing my identity.

Margi Dehlin [00:45:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:22] And so this, again, hustling was a way to just respond to a faith crisis that was devastating to sort of every aspect of my life.

Margi Dehlin [00:45:36] And there have been moments, I think, where that avoidant hustling caught up to you in very blindsiding ways, for sure. But how aware do you feel like you are day to day that this is really a way to cope, that it's a behavior you adopted, that you use on a level to control the amount of pain that you feel?

John Dehlin [00:46:00] It. It's always there in the back of my mind that, that I have a lot of personal work to do, that I'm a really flawed messenger, and that I've hurt way too many people. I've hurt, burned way too many bridges, damaged way too many relationships, you know, in.

John Dehlin [00:46:24] And just neglected, you know, important relationships and my own personal development. It's always in the back of my mind. And I think, I think I. I tell myself, well, you got to keep making a living for the family.

John Dehlin [00:46:43] You got to keep providing for Margi and the kids. They've got to have, they've got it. We got to have health insurance and we've got to send them to college and we've got to make our mortgage so that I, that, that response allows me to kind of delay the personal reckoning.

John Dehlin [00:47:01] And. But I, But I'm. I'm all. I'm haunted by the body count of. And I, I'm guessing my listeners will have no idea. Well, some listeners will have no idea what I'm talking about. You know what I mean, in terms of relationships damaged or hurt, you know, but it's.

John Dehlin [00:47:22] And I, I haven't wanted to bring that drama into Mormon stories because I don't think, you know, the Mormon, post Mormon world needs more drama. And I don't. I never wanted Mormon stories to be about me. I always wanted it to be about others.

John Dehlin [00:47:39] And I don't know how constructive it is for, you know, I hate it when progressives or post Mormons go at each other in public or tear each other down or, you know, and so I don't. I apologize if listeners have no idea what we're talking about. But, but anyway, I'm. To answer your question, I, I am daily tormented by the lack of personal growth that I've been putting off and the Collateral of broken relationships that have been, that has been amassed over the past 14 years.

John Dehlin [00:48:22] And I have lots of dear friends and we've done a lot of good things. So it's not all negative and terrible and hard. But I, I think I live more with the failures and the, the casualties than I do with the successes on a day to day basis because they really do haunt, haunt me all the time.

John Dehlin [00:48:51] Every day. I'm like haunted by, by all the collateral damage in relationships that, that have come with this job in the way I've handled it.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:07] Yeah, I think that's one of the biggest foils that I see in you is just what a huge connector you are. You are a builder of bridges. You love connecting with people and you. And yet oftentimes, you know, you end up in these spaces where you're feeling really disconnected from people and you feel, you know, that you have, you know, I don't know, all these bridges that have been burned to the ground or. And so it's a really, it's a painful juxtaposition, I think, for your personality where you want connection so badly and yet you oftentimes find yourself in relationships

John Dehlin [00:49:57] or situations where I find myself undermining the connections that I want.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:02] Yeah, yeah. Well, I hold that with you. And I will also say that another thing I didn't anticipate with the sense of your job was this level that you carry, not just our story, but you carry thousands of stories. You carry thousands of traumas because you are written every day with people's stories, with that they have no one else to tell, no one else will hear it, no one else will hold it. And it reminds me kind of like a therapist, right, where therapists need therapy because as human beings, you know, were not all made to hold, you know, vast amounts of pain. The therapists that I know need help carrying what they carry, you know, and they, you can see it in their lives, the burden of.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:59] And they're amazing people, beautiful people, so glad they exist. But it's like there is a cost to that. And you hold thousands of stories that you have heard over the years and you hold them all, you know.

John Dehlin [00:51:18] Thank you, sweetie.

Sources of Inspiration and Personal Struggles

Margi Dehlin [00:51:19] What inspires you in life?

John Dehlin [00:51:26] Creative people inspire me. Courageous people inspire me. Wise wisdom and intelligence inspires me. And wisdom, leadership inspires me. So I know there's another question there about like people that I admire, but it's like Oprah, Maya Angelou, Martin Luther King has always been a hero. Junior, Malcolm X, Jim Henson, Winston Churchill, and specifically how he responded to the, to The Nazi kind of regime. Many of those people have been my heroes over time because of either their. Their courage, their honesty, their conviction to do what's right, their wisdom, their intelligence, those sorts of things. I don't know if I'm answering your question.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:40] Yeah, you are. Yeah, absolutely. What is something you like about yourself?

John Dehlin [00:52:46] Oh, by the way, can I say one more thing? Gandhi was in there, too. What was the original question?

Margi Dehlin [00:52:52] The original question was, what inspires you?

John Dehlin [00:52:54] Yeah, yeah. Social justice stuff inspires me that when there are people who are downtrodden, people who are mistreated, people who are hurt, people who are damaged, people who are misunderstood, I really am inspired by trying to help, and I'm inspired by others who, over history's time, have tried to help those types of people.

John Dehlin [00:53:29] And Gandhi's another example of that. And the. The thing that I. I learned. I read enough about Gandhi and Martin Luther King and Malcolm X to know the huge, massive price that they paid. Gandhi didn't have a great relationship with his wife or kids.

John Dehlin [00:53:49] You know, Winston Churchill struggled in many of those ways. Obviously, Martin Luther King and Malcolm X ended up dead. They did not have the best relationships, sometimes with their family members. They had hidden lives that were sometimes really controversial.

John Dehlin [00:54:06] And when I thought I might be getting into this realm of activism, I knew a lot of leaders that could make a difference. I knew leaders that were able to do it and financially sustain it. I did know a lot of civil rights leaders that were able to keep their family together and do it in a healthy way. That was where their marriage and their relationships with their kids could not just remain intact, but still be healthy for everyone involved. So one of the hardest things for

Margi Dehlin [00:54:45] me

John Dehlin [00:54:48] has been trying to be someone that tries to fight for social justice, as flawed as I am, but also to keep our relationship strong and to be a good dad while still making a living. And that, I think you'll find it's a full plate.

John Dehlin [00:55:06] It's hard to do two of the three. It's almost impossible to do all three. To stand for social justice and make a difference while making ends meet financially, while not destroying your marriage or really neglecting your kids. And you can just see, even in our community, not everyone's been able to keep their marriage intact or not everyone's been able to survive financially. If you look at a lot of the social justice activists in Mormonism and post Mormonism, the marriage has been the casualty, or the kids have been the casualty, or they haven't been able to do it financially and, you know, sustain it. Financially. And that's.

John Dehlin [00:55:48] It's just. It's incredibly hard. I. It's, you know, it's hard. And it's hard not just in Mormonism. Pick any. Any, any realm. It's just, It's. It's exciting because it's really challenging, but it's. It's super hard. Every day I'm torn between feeling like I'm the luckiest guy in the world and really wanting it all to end because it sometimes feels like too much to carry. And it's just too. It's too difficult to keep all those three things in balance and together without wrecking our marriage or wrecking our kids or wrecking my relationship with our kids or having it financially implode or cease being effective as a someone trying to fight for social justice. It's. It's super hard.

Margi Dehlin [00:56:40] It is. And I think we've had to kind of adjust and really learn as we go, so. And boundarying was a huge, huge gift to our family. When you started, you took it outside the home, you know, for so long. It was part of our family life. Honestly.

John Dehlin [00:56:57] Margi's talking about. Well, last year she kicked me out, basically. She. In January of 2018, she basically said Mormon Stories and the Open Stories foundation will no longer be run out of our home because Mormon Stories was run out of our home from 2005 until late 2017.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:17] It was a good long run, 13 years.

John Dehlin [00:57:19] So I'd always be doing my interviews in a room or in the basement. And it could be echoed throughout the house or distressing.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:27] Phone calls were really. Yeah. Like people calling, needing help felt. Or we all not because you were out and about taking those phone calls. You were always private. But you can always feel and hear pain over.

John Dehlin [00:57:41] Or visitors. Or visitors.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:43] Or visitors. Yeah. We've learned as we've gone. But can I. I'm going to challenge you on the growth kind of segment that you said a question or two ago about you not being as I actually feel like you've done. You have done the work over the years and there's been a huge shift in the last year your own work. I think sometimes we've been blindsided by things you don't know what you don't know. You know, there's always room for improvement. Right. But you're broad stroking a lot of the character traits that I love most in you, which is you are growth mindset and you do take feedback from our kids.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:25] Now you take it from me. We're in a new day and that took a lot of work. Over the last year, and there's been times in our marriages where we burned our marriage down and you and I had to be willing to do a ton of work to rebuild, and you were always. You were there, you know, working. So I see you very much as. Growth mindset. I do see work as particularly tricky space.

John Dehlin [00:58:51] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:54] Okay. What is something that you struggle with with regards to yourself? So wait, did I ask you what you like about yourself?

John Dehlin [00:59:05] No.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:06] All right, wait. I want to start there. What's something you like about yourself?

John Dehlin [00:59:10] I hate this question.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:12] Really? There's so much to love. Come on now. What is this?

John Dehlin [00:59:18] I think that I like to. It's maybe illusion, but I like to feel like my heart's in the right place. Even if I'm. I think of myself as like a bull in a china shop. Because even if I'm thrashing around knocking everything down, causing burning bridges or causing emotional damage, sometimes I do have the impression or the perception that I. That I start from a place of good intentions to really help and alleviate suffering and to promote healing and joy.

John Dehlin [00:59:52] So I. I like that about myself, that I. I'm not, you know, that I'm not just trying to make a crap ton of money or I'm not just trying to be famous or, you know, that I. That I really do am trying to spend my years, my minutes, my time helping others.

John Dehlin [01:00:14] So I think I have good intentions and I feel like my heart. I try to keep my heart in the right place. I think that's maybe at the core. I think. I think I'm determined. I think I work hard.

John Dehlin [01:00:32] I think I try to listen and learn, but I'm not always good at changing. So. But I. I want. I want to have a growth mindset. I want to learn from my mistakes. So in that sense, those are some. A couple things.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:53] Okay. Yeah. Well, I. I could make a big old long list, but, yeah, that was a great. That's a great start. And I like hearing what you value about yourself. Okay, so what's something that you struggle with about yourself? And please don't do, like a huge old long list. Now, like, you list two things that you like about yourself. Now you're going to do, like 10 things. Let's not.

Relationships, a Perfect Day, and Dream Guests

John Dehlin [01:01:18] Yeah, I don't. I don't. I have struggled to. I've struggled with relationships with people. Just. I have relationships for a time, and then so many relationships seem to go sour, and. And I honestly feel like I often have some block to really understand what, you know, what happens there. So that's Something that I really struggle with, I think. Also I.

John Dehlin [01:01:57] One of the reasons I mentioned the three Amigos and Carolyn Pearson and Steve Veazey and a lot of those, you know, David Bachavoy, all those other things is. And you is I really admire people who are conscious and kind of enlightened.

John Dehlin [01:02:14] And I. I feel like I wish. I really want to be more conscious and enlightened and wise and non reactive. And I even teach the principles to others when I coach and you know, when I've done therapy in the past, I know that meditation and mindfulness and non reactivity are the ways to achieve that. And I've even tried meditating in the past. But I'm frustrated at my inability to become wiser and deeper and more compassionate and more conscious and less reactive.

John Dehlin [01:02:57] I'm disappointed by my emotional reactivity where I let anger or fear get the best of me too often. I think a lot of people feel like Mormon Stories has lost. Some people expressed that they really enjoyed Mormon Stories when they felt like it was more evenhanded and objective. Because I've always tried to balance believers and non believers, respect for all interview people in respectful ways.

John Dehlin [01:03:31] And some people feel like I'm still balanced and objective, but other people feel like a couple years before the excommunication and since Mormon Stories is lost, some of its objectivity and neutralness and that sort of stuff. And then I do think about kind of the peacemakers and the bridge builders versus the path I've taken. And to the extent, it's hard to know how much of that's true because I still get feedback. John, you're the most balanced interviewer that I know. I still get that feedback, but I've also lost a lot of my former audience. So it's hard to know exactly where I stand there. But to the extent to which I have erred on the side of, well, my behaviors have led to more division, more bridge burning, more divisiveness in the community versus understanding and connection. I regret that.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:33] Okay, So describe a version of a perfect day for you.

John Dehlin [01:04:44] Hmm. Well, I get a full night's sleep, which is sometimes rare, so I would wake up at 6 instead of 4 or 3. I would cuddle with you in bed, do some mindfulness with you in bed before I get out of bed, cuddle with you, connect with you. I would go exercise because I do better when I exercise.

John Dehlin [01:05:12] I would get back in time to send the kids off like we do each morning, but be really present and connected with the kids so that they feel my presence and connection. And I'm not distracted in my brain or worrying about something. You know, I come to work, put a. Put a good day's work in where I'm creating.

John Dehlin [01:05:35] I'm not putting out firefighters, I'm not getting dragged into contention or drama. But I'm. I'm doing something creative that's meaningful to people. Good meals along the way. I love food, so I would have good meals along the way that were healthy but yummy and yeah, then I just come home and connect with the family.

John Dehlin [01:06:01] Yesterday Claire and I went through the Frisbee for an hour or two and I was able to be there with her and connect with her. We went to Nielsen's Frozen Custard. Afterwards we connected with Winston. At night, like when I'm a good day includes me connecting with you and also the kids where they feel my presence in their lives, my love, my support, when they're able to open up to me and I'm able to receive their openness with presence and uplift instead of my own fears or my own desires for them. I know you're going to talk about conscious parenting later, but it involves connecting with my kids and you in meaningful ways.

John Dehlin [01:06:44] It probably involves family dinner and then it involves, you know, you and I snuggling up at night. Are you winking some lovin'? Is that what. You're weak? There's maybe some physical intimacy, night connecting.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:01] I know that's on your list.

John Dehlin [01:07:02] That's on my list. But also I really enjoy whether you and I are walking together. That's a long tradition we have of walking and talking. Or also watching a cool TV show, a fun TV show with you at night in bed.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:19] Which right now would be.

John Dehlin [01:07:22] We're re watching Parenthood, but we're watching the Good Place right now. And we, we have. I could list 20 shows that we've watched over the years. Over the years. But. But it involves that and then cuddling up with you to go to bed. Yeah, that's a perfect day.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:41] That's a good day.

John Dehlin [01:07:44] And if I can throw my brother or my sister or my parents kind of extended family in there, I really treasure.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:52] Yeah, a day is kind of hard. Almost over a week is a little bit kinder because you have more. And you are a very devoted son. Brother. You take all those relationships really seriously.

John Dehlin [01:08:04] And I love it when I can connect with friends that I've made in the community. In spite of all my self flagellation today. I have made a lot of friends and long term friends.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:15] I'm gonna Say, I realize, really, through this conversation that you are structurally very hard on yourself. Really. I didn't realize quite to, you know, what extent you were. Because you are a profoundly amazing dad in the sense of showing up, seeking time with your kids every week, even the ones that have moved out, you know, seeking to take feedback to be safer, to get your stuff out of the way, admitting mistakes, working harder. And I would say that as, you know, a partner, too. Not that we don't separate for a while or meaning, like, we have differentiation, we have different projects that you can get distracted, but you're always very aware of coming back or, hey, I've been distracted for a day. I want to connect with you. How can we do that? I feel like you're very sensitive to that.

John Dehlin [01:09:15] Thanks, sweetie.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:16] Anyway, yeah. Hard on yourself, man. So three people that you would most want to interview for Mormon stories that you haven't yet.

John Dehlin [01:09:29] I would love to interview, you know, any of the, like, top first presidency or, you know, I'd love to interview Russell M. Nelson, you know, or Dallin H. Oaks or Jeffrey Holland or, in the past, Boyd K. Packer or. Some of, you know, the other leaders, especially the ones that are more controversial.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:55] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:09:56] I mean, I. I feel like I could do a really good job of humanizing them. Like, some of my favorite interviews in Mormon stories were, like, Sean McCraney or Sandra Tanner, you know, where people had this really strong impression of someone, or even Daniel Peterson, though I didn't conduct the interview, where people have this really strong preconceived notion about somebody.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:18] And maybe they're polarizing or controversial, but you're able to dig deeper and really humanize them and show where they're coming from and show their true intent and motives, where you're like, oh, man, I get it now. And I love them. And you made, you know, kind of, I think, why you're interviewing me, I love to do that to other people. So I would love. Like, with Russell M. Nelson or Dallin H. Oaks, I would love to say, yeah, like, what made you talk about your LGBT issues, Talk about these decisions you've made recently, talk about how you view the church and why you make the decisions you do and what is it about your background or your experiences that have led you to lead in the way that you lead or to say the things that you have said as a way to humanize them and to help us understand them better and to.

John Dehlin [01:11:14] To really help them express themselves in authentic ways. That'd be really super meaningful to me. And, of course, it's never going to happen, or at least I can't imagine it ever happening. But that's kind of one class of answering your question. I would love to interview Joseph Smith, you know, going back in history to really get to the bottom of who he was and why he did what he did. Because I really do think that if any of us were born with Joseph Smith's DNA, Joseph Smith's upbringing, we would act identically to him. Because I think ultimately we are our DNA, our brains, our upbringing, our environment.

John Dehlin [01:11:52] I think that in many ways kind of unfolds who we become. Otherwise, what is it, you know, is there spirit or some sort of consciousness? I'm not a big believer in independent spirits or independent consciousness. And so if it's not some co. Eternal spirit or intelligence, then it's got to be where our brains, where our DNA, where the chemicals that were the way our brains came together. And then we're a response to the experiences that we have. And so I would love to be able to really understand Joseph Smith or even Jesus and understand what they were about, why they said what they said, why they did what they did, who they really are.

John Dehlin [01:12:40] And then. Yeah, and then, you know, there'd be some celebrity Mormon celebrities like, you know, Dan Reynolds or Steve Young, Stephen Barb Young or the Donny Marie Osmond, you know, they're always kind of other, you know, Mitt Romney, really prominent celebrity type Mormons got. It would be really fun.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:06] So let's take a slice of.

John Dehlin [01:13:07] Oh, and Leah Remini. I really want to interview Leah Remini.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:10] Oh, okay. So that I feel like would almost go for this question because then I just asked, just as an interviewer, three interviews. So not necessarily tied to Mormon stories, but what are a few interviews you'd love to have just in general?

John Dehlin [01:13:25] Oh, people dead or alive.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:29] Yeah, just a few people that come to mind. Like this would be an interesting interview or I've always.

John Dehlin [01:13:33] Yeah, I'd love to interview Kaim Potok, who's my favorite author, who wrote the Chosen, who wrote the Promise, who wrote. My Name is Asher Lev, who wrote David's Harp, who wrote about the evolution of religion and the secularization of religion and the clash of religion and modernity. His books have inspired me so much and. Or, you know, Reformed Judaism has inspired me so much that I would love to interview Kaim Potok. I don't think he's still alive, but that would be a dream interview.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:14:11] Who else would I want to interview? Help me out.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:14] Well, I think Leah Remini.

John Dehlin [01:14:16] Leah Remini Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:16] Did you want to interview Oprah or someone like that?

John Dehlin [01:14:20] Yeah. Interviewing Oprah or Brene Brown? Brene Brown.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:14:23] You know, going back in time. Martin Luther King. How about Gandhi? Jim Henson. Lyndon B. Johnson.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:33] What about the podcaster you've been listening to?

John Dehlin [01:14:35] Franklin and Eleanor Roosevelt.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:36] Yeah. Oh, my God. True. What about the podcaster that you've been listening to recently who did zacht?

John Dehlin [01:14:46] Yeah. I don't know his name. Oh, same like Sam Harris.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:50] Yeah. Would you want to.

John Dehlin [01:14:50] So you have in there some of my favorite podcasts.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:53] Like, I. Oh, yeah, that's. No, you can't go there.

John Dehlin [01:14:55] Okay. Okay. So.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:58] But would you. Would you want to interview Sam Harris?

John Dehlin [01:15:01] Yeah. Sam Harris would be fascinating. Alain de Bouton.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:15:05] Would be. Would be fascinating.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:10] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:15:10] Yeah. Lots of people.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:11] That's a great taste.

John Dehlin [01:15:13] I would love to be a general interviewer, you know, of people beyond religion and beyond Mormonism. That would be a real dream.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:20] It's always been your dream, huh?

John Dehlin [01:15:22] Yeah. To be like a. I don't want to use Charlie Rose's example because he got, you know, me too. And I, you know, I don't want. But that Oprah, just that position of interviewer I cherish, and part of me would love to take that outside of religion and Mormonism. Yeah.

Decompressing and Lessons Learned as a Journalist

Margi Dehlin [01:15:42] What are some of your favorite ways to decompress?

John Dehlin [01:15:45] So sleep, food, sex, chess, karaoke,

Margi Dehlin [01:16:00] News.

John Dehlin [01:16:03] Not news. I think sports, sometimes Jacuzzi.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:08] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:16:09] Or baths. Every night I take a bath.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:12] Sure.

John Dehlin [01:16:12] Do you? Those are some of the ways and. And getting together with people that I love and trust and connect with.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:21] Mm. And can just be yourself around.

John Dehlin [01:16:24] Yeah. And I don't have to be John the podcaster. John the religious pundit.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:16:32] You know, I can just be me and not have to. Yeah. Wear the. Wear the hats.

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 1096

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Sa.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:31] So what is something that's been difficult for you to learn?

John Dehlin [00:00:35] Personally, I think we've touched on this, but I think it's just that consciousness, enlightenment, non reactivity, wisdom. I think I'm too tethered to my emotions. I'm too reactive. I'm not conscious or present enough. I want more wisdom, I want more grace. I want less reactivity, more mindfulness. And I've been teaching it for a long time, but I haven't mastered it or I haven't even started to really cultivate it like I've seen in other people. And I. I really want to go there.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:24] Let's seize the day like you.

John Dehlin [00:01:26] I mean, I want to be more. I'm honestly, this is not me being flattering. I want to be more Margi. Like, but. And I. And I've got the perfect role model who I live with, but, you know, I feel just so far away from that, really.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:42] I don't experience you that way. But what has been something that has been difficult for you to learn professionally. And I know you touched a little bit on this too, but this will allow for a real succinct, focused answer.

John Dehlin [00:02:00] I mean, to find that balance between choosing the right people to work with. I mean, we're all. There's something about the post Mormon, progressive, post Mormon space where we're all kind of broken and traumatized. And so it's you. So all the people that I've chosen to work with, most of them myself included, just bring a lot of wounds and trauma.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:28] So kind of finding people. It's almost impossible to find people who aren't wounded and aren't traumatized in this space and then to work with them where I feel generous and supportive and empowering, but also I can, you know, control my creative vision, which sounds egotistical, but

Margi Dehlin [00:02:56] I think it's the basis of every artist.

John Dehlin [00:02:58] Honestly, for me, it's like creator die. And I never want to lose my creative standards and my creative vision. Even though people may not see Mormon stories or what I've done as a creative act, for me, it is a creative impulse. It's a creative. It's born out of a real need to be creative. And my interviews and who I pick and how I interview and the events that I've run and the social activism have all been these creative acts to try and say something or make a difference. And so I never want to lose my ability to maintain creative and artistic integrity, but to do it in a way to where we can stay financially viable. But also people feel Empowered. And people feel like I'm grateful, but they don't feel too controlled. That's just professionally. Like, if I could, especially with the

Margi Dehlin [00:03:55] structure where you are the face of the thing, I think that's one of the biggest challenges to what you've tried to do.

John Dehlin [00:04:03] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:04:04] Is that you are. And so. Okay, but continue answering and then I have a follow up question.

Vision and Future of Open Stories Foundation

John Dehlin [00:04:09] Yeah. So like with, with, with Mormon Stories and the Open Stories Foundation, I've said to my board a million times, I just want it. I just want. I don't want to worry about the board, I just want the board to do its thing. I don't want to worry about managing staff.

John Dehlin [00:04:23] I just want a staff that can, you know, and I just want to create. I just want to do interviews and meet one on one with people and do events and do workshops and help people. So I've said that a million times. And then when the board has tried to assert itself or make directional changes or I've brought on staff, clearly the way that I've worked has been where the board ends up feeling not empowered. The board ends up feeling like I disagreed with them. The, like staff members have felt micromanaged or controlled or like things were erratic or that I changed my mind a lot or whatever.

John Dehlin [00:05:02] And so I can say on the one hand, I just want to empower all these people to do the infrastructure management stuff so that I can focus on the creative visionary stuff. And yet I've never been able to effectively pick the right people and work with the right people and manage the right people and let go in a way to where that vision could be realized. And so it's just been this cycle of like bringing people on, trying to build something and then doing good, but then having it implode and then those relationships kind of burning out and then bringing on new people and coming up with a new vision and trying to build it and doing great things along the way, but then having it unravel and burn out and relationships unravel and then it all implodes again.

John Dehlin [00:05:56] And I've gone through that cycle at least three times in the OSF's life cycle, maybe four, you know, and we're right at that point again where things are kind of all unraveling and we're having to figure out who we are and what we're going to be going forward, given where we've been and what we've accomplished.

John Dehlin [00:06:15] And I wish it could just be this steady build like I look at in circle, you know, what Stephanie Larsen's been able to do in such a short amount of time. And it's just been like, success, success, success, success, bigger impact.

John Dehlin [00:06:33] You know, all it seems like it's all positive and everyone's happy and everyone's getting along and everyone's succeeding. It feels that way. It appears that way. I, I, I see other organizations, too, that seem to follow that path, and I've seen a lot fail. So I don't think this is, I'm not trying to be glib. I think it's really hard to be in this space, and it's really hard to do all these things. And I think for whatever run we've had from 10,000 and from 2005, when we started, to 2010, when we started the nonprofit, to 2019, I think we've accomplished an extraordinary amount of positive things.

John Dehlin [00:07:13] So I don't want to fall back into, like, being hard on myself, but it's so, I mean, I'm hearing your voice in my brain, but, and to some extent, I think some of this cycling is just the way organizations are going to be run. But if you're asking me what I could have, what I would like to see is a way to have it build without the cycling and without the rise, the high peaks, but then the low valleys.

Margi Dehlin [00:07:42] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:07:43] And without the collateral damage. But I don't, I just don't know how, I don't know how to manage a board that way yet. And I don't know how to run an organization that way yet where I don't end up feeling like either my creative vision's being compromised or like people with good intentions want to make decisions to take the organization in a certain direction. Where, when I feel like, whoa, if you make those decisions, everything unravels.

Margi Dehlin [00:08:09] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:08:10] And so I'm at the end. I haven't figured out how to let go, where it can lead to blossoming and growth. Because just as easily you could empower certain people and invest in certain people, and they could make bad strategic decisions or mismanage things or the money spent to bring to make these things happen drain the, the cash flow of the organization. You could end up bankrupt or end up making the wrong decisions or everything imploding. So, you know, managing that empowerment and stable growth with, via ongoing viability. I don't know that I'll, I would love to master that, but I haven't even come close to starting to figure out how to do that.

Margi Dehlin [00:08:59] Mm. So back to that question. What I'm hearing you kind of say, because the original question was, what's Something that's been difficult for you to learn professionally. Are you saying, you know, this idea of creating a viable, stable work environment with regard to your relationship with a board and with volunteers or staff. Okay, yeah. So you would hire staff again?

John Dehlin [00:09:32] Oh, I mean, I conceivably, you know, like my vision for the Open Stories foundation, or our vision or whatever, the vision of the collective vision of all the people who have been with us from the beginning, there's still massive need to. Like, we've only scratched this. Like most, most active, intelligent, educated Mormons in the United States have never heard of Natasha Alpha Parker or me or Kate Kelly or Bill Riehl or Lindsay Hanson park or Sunstone. You know, like, we have only barely scratched the surface of all the things that we've hoped to do and all that we've accomplished, international news and activism and all the things that have come out of what of the past 14 years, we've only scratched the surface of really making an impact on Mormonism, on the church.

John Dehlin [00:10:24] And then there's the broader need for humanity as religion's in decline. Like, there's never been more of a need and more of an opportunity for everything the Open Stories foundation has tried to do, which is waking people up about realities, educating them about the benefits and harms of religion and history and social justice concerns, and then promoting healing and growth and community.

John Dehlin [00:10:54] So then, so yeah, we need. We need not just Sunstone, not just the Open Storage foundation, not just Dialogue or the Mormon History association or waca. You know, there's this massive need for secular communities, for books, for therapists, for workshops, for retreats, for ongoing, viable for books, everything, there's this massive need. And if there were a way for me or for others to organize in a way where there could be this kind of strong core of leadership and of mission based commitment and then productive growth, of books, of podcasts, of workshops, of retreats, of therapists, of secular community. It could be massive. Right? But I haven't been able to come close to cracking that code.

Margi Dehlin [00:11:57] Yeah, I'm not sure that's a code you crack alone.

John Dehlin [00:12:01] For sure not. But also, and I just have to say, it's not just for Mormonism, it's for ex Judaism, ex Muslim, ex Jehovah's Witness, ex Scientology, ex evangelical Christianity. Like, the secular world feels like it has to figure out spirituality, identity, community, all this stuff going forward as religion recedes and declines. So there's just so much massive work to do,

Margi Dehlin [00:12:31] and that feels like your larger dream.

John Dehlin [00:12:34] And it doesn't have to Be me. Like if I could just say, oh, you guys have figured this out, go do it.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:40] Or be a contributor one or be

John Dehlin [00:12:42] a small contributor or a player of

Margi Dehlin [00:12:44] many ton of players.

John Dehlin [00:12:45] Yeah, that would be. That's the only way it's going to happen. It won't be me that leads. Whatever needs to happen, if anything can happen. What I know is that the answer to humanity's needs is not just that religion dies. I think religion has been in a. It has caused so much harm and damage, but it's been an incredibly positive contributor to the rise of civilization. Now that it's orthodox religions on the decline in the developed world, we as a species need to figure out a better replacement. And I think we are. But it's just really, it's pioneering work and it's gritty and it's messy and it's slow going, but I think we need to do that work.

Mantras, Rumination, and Difficult Relationships

Margi Dehlin [00:13:32] If you had a focusing mantra that you could create to kind of center yourself, what would it be? So just like a phrase or something that would feel grounding to you.

John Dehlin [00:13:49] I mean, it's got a couple components to it. It's accept what is. And this comes from acceptance, commitment, therapy and the coaching and the therapy that I do for other people. And Buddhism, secular Buddhism. It's accept what is. It's don't get caught up in story. You know, it's focus on the present moment. It's what are your values? And it's create based on your values. Focus on creation, not on story or non acceptance of what is or the past, the traumas of the past or the fears of the future. It would be some type of mantra that incorporates the philosophies I share with others but have a hard time incorporating into my own life.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:43] What are a few things that you and I have in common?

John Dehlin [00:14:47] Well, that's flattering to even think about that.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:50] Oh, we have so many things.

John Dehlin [00:14:52] Yeah. Well, I think we both believe in hard work. I think we both believe in emotional intimacy. Right. Instead of surface things or superficial things. I don't think neither of us are materialistic. I think we both have a commitment to the well being, personal growth, a growth mindset and the well being of others. And shedding insincerities and falsenesses and superficialities and. And materialism and all sorts of, you know, so a willingness to sacrifice, I think. Yeah. A desire for healing and growth and a growth mindset and a willingness to sacrifice for what we care about.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:44] Mm.

John Dehlin [00:15:46] Love for our children.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:48] We're also very food compatible.

John Dehlin [00:15:50] We love good Food.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:51] We're also very movie compatible.

John Dehlin [00:15:53] We love, we love good movies. Yeah. We love walks. We love hikes in nature.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:58] Very nature compatible.

John Dehlin [00:15:59] We love hikes in nature. Yeah, we love, yeah. How are those? Is there anything I forgot?

Margi Dehlin [00:16:08] Well, I mean, there are a ton. We just, we're gonna just do a little. That's great. What wakes you up at night and what do you ruminate about? You've kind of touched on this a

John Dehlin [00:16:17] little bit, but, yeah, what I ruminate about and what keeps you up at night are relationships that have gone sour and wondering if the Mormon stories in the Oba Stories foundation can survive and thrive and not self destruct or be torpedoed by an outside force.

John Dehlin [00:16:36] And then also, are my kids okay? Are my kids going to be okay? I feel really, you know, I don't want to be naive or neglectful, but I feel very solid in my relationship with you. Now that we've done kind of the work over the past, I'll just say seven years to really, or 10 or 20 years, depending on how you put it.

John Dehlin [00:16:58] I feel solid with you. But I, I, I, I do worry about my kids. Not because they aren't doing well or I don't believe in them, but just because I have a worry mindset. I have a fear mindset about my kids. Our kids, and about, I think that

Margi Dehlin [00:17:16] might be coming across today. Yeah, just a wee bit.

John Dehlin [00:17:18] And the work, you know, I worry about the work.

Margi Dehlin [00:17:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:21] And our kids.

Margi Dehlin [00:17:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:24] I don't worry about politics, I don't worry about the environment. You know, those things are deeply disturbing to me, but I feel like my ability to influence those is so small that even though I have deep concerns about political and environmental and social things, I focus on things that I have an influence on. And so that's my relationship with you, my relationship with our kids, and the work of Mormon stories in the Open Stories Foundation.

Margi Dehlin [00:17:57] Yeah. And I also think because in our home we do, we have been trying to be a little bit, you know, more earth aware. And I think many of those approaches that you're alluding to, they're pretty straightforward. Right. It's like meat consumption and it's, it's quite practical what you can do and where you start. And, and I find, you know, children and work are a little less, they're more of an art form. There's a lot of vulnerability inherent to, and it's not like a wrap it up in a bow kind of situation where you can quickly assess in a practical way and be done with it.

John Dehlin [00:18:39] Yeah. I have to Add one more thing, and this is kind of super vulnerable and feels risky to me, but I'll just lay it out there just for the history books, I guess, and for those who really care.

John Dehlin [00:18:51] The kind of. The personal attacks that come with being a public figure. And I'm not talking about, like, again, his interviews are too long or he's boring or he's not prepared. Kind of like the type of public attacks that are intended to smear one's reputation or destroy one's influence, oftentimes seemingly out of, like, jealousy or envy or spite or something.

John Dehlin [00:19:21] Those. And I, you know, or woundedness or. Yeah, that comes out of woundedness. Yeah. From others. Yeah. Like, that's. It's one thing to have people not like you at times or not want to support you or even criticize you.

John Dehlin [00:19:41] I've had the. We've had a bit. The dubious, you know, experience of having people try to literally destroy you or destroy your reputation or ability to make a difference. And it's. That's often come from sources that I used to consider friendly people that I used to consider friends.

John Dehlin [00:20:06] That. That's something that I just never envisioned being. I expected, like, maybe church leaders will criticize me or maybe apologists will come at me, or maybe believers. That's. And this is something that came out of my interview with Lloyd Evans, the Jehovah's Witness, ex Jehovah's Witness from a few weeks ago. He said the same thing. His biggest enemies are other people in the movement, other ex Jehovah's Witnesses who, you know, for whatever reason or in whatever ways, have tried to destroy him.

John Dehlin [00:20:39] And, you know, this isn't me trying to play the victim or. Or portray myself as having ever made mistakes. I've made big mistakes. I've made massive mistakes. I've. I hope in this interview it's been very clear that I'm willing to own up or at least willing to try to own up to all the mistakes I've made.

John Dehlin [00:20:59] But the types of attacks I'm talking about are like a whole nother world of, like, reputation smearing and with the intent to destroy from former friends. And I've just never. I never saw that. And it's a really, really difficult part of this business because it not only carries, like, an existential threat, like, what. What if people believe the lies or the smears, but it's also. It's like, how do you trust if former friends that you've worked hard to support, to empower, to lift, to build their influence, if they can turn on you, in a moment's notice, some of your closest friends or colleagues, and they'll turn and try and destroy you or backstab you.

John Dehlin [00:21:54] It makes you feel, can you trust anyone in this business? And you can end up. If you get cynical about it or too fearful, it can just make your circles grow smaller and smaller and the people you're willing to trust go smaller and smaller. It can lead to the kind of the paranoid mindset that I've had. It's been a major source of board contention over the past few years when we've had board turnover in addition to all my personal weaknesses. So much of that board conflict has been.

John Dehlin [00:22:25] There seems to be an existential threat of people trying to destroy us through smearing of reputations. How do we respond to this? And Even if you're 100% innocent of all charges and everyone agrees, you have to still say, okay, these attacks have come.

John Dehlin [00:22:48] If we don't respond, even if they're false, then anyone who hears the attacks is going to assume that there must be some guilt or something substantive to the attacks, because there's no response. But the trick is people who want to ruin your reputation or smear you want a response. That's what they're doing. They're trying to use your platform, number one, oftentimes to get their own attention, but also they want you to become their marketer by advertising what they're selling by advertising what they're saying.

John Dehlin [00:23:31] And so if you respond, you create the backfire effect, or you create the Barbra Streisand effect where you do their marketing for them. And so on the one hand, you want to say, that's not true. Those are lies. There's no credible foundation for any of that stuff.

John Dehlin [00:23:47] But when you do that, then you're just giving them more attention, and then you're playing into their game and so trying to navigate how to respond in a way that doesn't reward people who mean you ill and who. And not to spread that sort of thing, but at the same time, wanting to not, you know, wanting to maintain credibility or reputation or at least the truth.

John Dehlin [00:24:14] That's been just a grueling, very, very difficult, and I would say, and others may disagree at A lot of the staff and board tension over the past couple years for me has been rooted in the fear and the paranoia and the complexity of trying to figure out, number one, how to respond to that type of stuff and then how to manage it, and then how to manage the fears and the paranoia.

John Dehlin [00:24:44] As you wonder, will. Will today's Friends become tomorrow's, you know, backstabbing enemies. You know what I mean? And, yeah, so that's. I don't know if you wanted me to go there, but that's just. That's probably been. Of all the things, the most complex, draining, keeping me up at night thing that, that I've had to deal with over the past couple years specifically.

Personal Healing and What Brings Comfort

John Dehlin [00:25:14] And you've lived it. What's that been like for you? And what's your. I would love to hear your reflections on the. Because you've lived it. You've been in the house.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:25] I think, I think for sure that has been the. If I were to just say, witnessing your behavior, what keeps you up, what, what the cycle looks like and the. What are the qualities that are in common for your greatest emotional disruption?

Margi Dehlin [00:25:44] Yeah, it's for sure. This idea of an external attack by people who you once trusted. And. And I also think it's particularly difficult because it's clearly a place of. And I'm not using this word lightly. I'm using it because it is. What it is is. It's trauma.

Margi Dehlin [00:26:08] And you've. You have it with the excommunication piece as well, that just this sort of once trusted now is going to do something that feels. So you end up buckling down and trying to protect. And you become, you know, defensive posturing, which then you transfer to sometimes people who are like, hey, I'm not hurting you. I don't want to hurt you. I may disagree with you, or I may have a different opinion, but. And it's just hard because, you know, you enter a more triggered state during those times and it can last for days, even weeks, where you're perpetually triggered. And those are some of the things we've sought external help around because it's.

Margi Dehlin [00:26:59] It's kind of structural now, and it's bigger than you are. It's bigger than we are. And so learning kind of how to be a generous human being with boundaries and learning to surrender that there's a lot of unknown about what you do.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:16] Right. And things can be destroyed. We do live in a time where, you know, you can be destroyed based on. And so that's kind of a reality we. We live with and we accept it. And yet every day it's kind of like death. We know it is there for us. We're all vulnerable. It can happen at any time. Right. But we somehow live with that. And we do it because we live our values. We have these feelings, but we choose what we want to spend our time kind of doing. In the face of that. And that's what. Something I think you're learning right now. You're.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:53] It's been a long go and you had a lot of things happen all at once, so you. You were drowning for a while. But I do think that it is something that you're slowly acclimatizing. It comes up in a blip every once in a while where you get a reminder of, oh, that's right, I'm being Scarcity protective mindset. How do I be more generous and not have this person hold a wound for me right now that they've done nothing to deserve? Right.

John Dehlin [00:28:21] And also, how do I trust and

Margi Dehlin [00:28:23] how do you trust and what that looks like? And where do the boundaries? Where are the boundaries?

John Dehlin [00:28:27] How do I trust anyone again, if in the past trust has meant betrayal?

Margi Dehlin [00:28:33] Yeah. That's like the work of our lives, you know.

John Dehlin [00:28:38] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:39] And tricky.

John Dehlin [00:28:43] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:46] So next question. What soothes you when you're upset?

John Dehlin [00:28:52] Do we already talk about this?

Margi Dehlin [00:28:53] So you press.

John Dehlin [00:28:54] So there.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:55] There's a soothe, I guess.

John Dehlin [00:28:56] Yeah, there's a. I think the number one thing is you. And I feel bad that I'm. Sometimes I'm this burden to you, but

Margi Dehlin [00:29:03] I'm your coping skill.

John Dehlin [00:29:04] There's a James Taylor song, you know. Something in the way she moves or looks my way or calls my name that seems to leave this troubled world behind. If I'm feeling dark and blue or troubled by some foolish game she always seems to make me change my mind.

John Dehlin [00:29:25] I feel fine anytime she's around. She's around me now almost all the time. And if I'm well, you can tell that she's been with me now she's been with me now Quite a long, long time and I feel fine.

John Dehlin [00:29:40] In the chorus, there's a bridge. Every now and then the things I lean on lose their meaning and I find myself reading into places where I should not let me go. She has the power to go where nowhere no one else can find me and to silently remind me of the happiness and good times that I've known.

John Dehlin [00:30:02] So that's you. So you are my one sure, true thing. You know, you're the sting as that song. If I ever lose my faith in you, there'll be nothing left to do. And that, Margi, is my. You're my God in that sense. You're my rock, you know, my savior.

John Dehlin [00:30:22] I've put my trust. I haven't put my trust in the arm of men, but I have. In the arm of a woman. In the arms of a woman. And that's who you are. And I feel bad that so often our talks or our walks are about me or my insecurities or my pain. But you've been that to me. And in times when I didn't deserve it, but you've been that for me, and I'm really grateful. That's about the only thing that'll get me to tear up.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:59] Well, it's been a privilege that. It's a gift of my life to be able to do that.

John Dehlin [00:31:02] So I don't know.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:03] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:31:04] I don't know about that.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:05] Well, we've navigated that. We've navigated some of that, and I feel like we're in a really, really good place. And. And I. I feel really touched that you would say that. And I want you to be the thing, to be the faith and that place for yourself, too. And I think you're working on that with yourself. That you can trust. You can learn to trust yourself, that you can learn to count on yourself. That you start to see yourself as this whole wise person instead of this broken, you know? And we're kind of amidst. I feel like building that because you're. You deserve that, you know?

John Dehlin [00:31:45] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:47] But thank you for that love.

John Dehlin [00:31:52] Food and baths and sleep are some of the other things.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:56] Right. I am with you. So I feel like we've answered kind of. Okay, let's do this one. What do you cherish most about our children? And you can do it collectively or individually. Just kind of call. You could call them out and say what you really cherish about each one. Or you can notice kind of things in common that you notice with our children.

Parenting, Marriage, and Regrets

John Dehlin [00:32:21] I think, you know, acknowledging that a parent's always gonna love their kids and see special things in them. I feel like all of our kids share a very high emotional iq. A very deep wisdom about people. You can't talk to, you know, Adrian or Adriana. You can't talk to Maya. You can't talk to Clara. You can't talk to Winston without sort of going, this kid is deep. And they get things that a kid their age doesn't get. And they see things about people that a normal kid this age would see, or they come up with wisdom or insight. I think it's. I think it's emotional intelligence and wisdom that seems extraordinary for their age. Again, knowing that I'm a braggy parent, but they all have that. They also. I'm. I'm grateful that they all have the. The ability to push back. None of them are kind of submissive

Margi Dehlin [00:33:37] to me or Anyone?

John Dehlin [00:33:39] Yeah, they. They have resilience and courage and strength that I really admire. And so their resilience is really powerful to me. Their creativity. They're all very, very creative people.

Margi Dehlin [00:34:02] Um, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:03] And. And they're willing to step off the paths of convenience or the conventional paths.

Margi Dehlin [00:34:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:13] And kind of carve their own way.

Margi Dehlin [00:34:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:16] Emotionally, whatever. Socially, professionally. Yeah. Yeah. So I've. You, you know, and I see your influence in them as being the primary influence. And. Yeah, you've done amazing soul work there.

Margi Dehlin [00:34:33] I don't know. I see a lot of you in there. Like, when I consider too just I feel like we. They are all advocates, they're all activists in some regard. They feel strongly about, you know, the rights of other people. And is everyone represented? And was this fair and was everyone heard? And. And I see a lot of that coming from you, that sense of. Or maybe both of us, but really this sense of responsibility that they hold almost, which we also have had to work on the other side of that with good coping. Cause it can feel like a lot for a 17 year old or a.

Margi Dehlin [00:35:17] You know, and I also think the fact that you went back to school and kind of carved out a whole other profession. I think they all really take their lives seriously. Like they are pretty conscious that. Of kind of decisions they make, you know, age appropriate. Winston's 15, but you have the sense that he's really thinking about things. He's. He's internal. He's really assessing his experience and what feels good to him and what he wants. And, you know, culturally, people may think this is, you know, the way to do it, but I don't feel good doing that. So, you know, you just have this sense that they're really creating a life, not just, you know, executing a formula for a life.

John Dehlin [00:36:04] Yeah. And if I could move up. One of the questions you have there, you asked about what's conscious parenting. To me, it really. This is so cliche. It's one of those. It's like those religious truths that can be so cliche, like love your neighbor, but you can spend a lifetime focusing just on that and barely scratch the surface. Like, for me, conscious parenting really is moving away from a model of control, moving away from a model of expectation, moving away from a model of wanting my kids to be of some reflection of me or some reflection of my best me, or some reflection of my hopes and fears in the right, you know, in the right balance.

John Dehlin [00:36:53] Some reaction to the good and the bad that I've experienced in life, some reflection of that, you know, to Move away from that and move away from emotional manipulation of a parent to a kid, or putting my fears on my kids, but putting my wishes on my kids, but instead just finding a way to listen to them, to see them, to get out of the way so that they can become their true best selves. And I can't imagine a more, you know, kind of stereotypical or kind of glib thing, but it's, it really is so just deeply, meaningfully true that it's not our job to mold our kids, to shape our kids, to influence our kids.

John Dehlin [00:37:48] It's just to see them, to love them, and to give them a chance to become who they are. And I, I, I, it's so hard. They're my teachers, they're, they're like, you know, Shefali Saber, he talks about this. They're like the ultimate Zen master teacher our kids are, because it's just so hard.

John Dehlin [00:38:08] And especially as Mormons and as post Mormons, we come from a framework of conditional love, of manipulation, of expectation, of control, of disappointment, of I'm happy if you do what I say and if you be who I want you to be.

John Dehlin [00:38:26] And it's just so, so hard. Even if you leave the church or you lose your beliefs and you just don't see how much that orthodox religious Mormon mindset permeates how you relate to other people, including patriarchy.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:47] And so unraveling that conditioning so that you can be a different type of conscious parent is just, it's, it's. You mentioned what keeps me up at night. That, that is one of the main things that keeps me up at night is like, how do I stop being the dad that I was or the, the fearful parent, the controlling parent, the parent with expectations that are rigid, the parent that doesn't really listen, the parent that doesn't really see, the parent that's distracted. How do I become the parent that's conscious, that's mindful, that's nurturing, that's supportive, that's safe, so there is no harder work. All the stuff I said about the Open Stories Foundation, Mormon stories, public figure stuff, all of that pales in comparison to the difficulty of being a conscious parent. But I really want to do it, you know.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:49] Well, it's really fulfilling work. It's just a super, It's a really challenge. So hard with no guarantees.

John Dehlin [00:39:57] But I'm not giving up.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:58] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Do you regret anything in your life and should I wait on the follow up on that?

John Dehlin [00:40:13] I mean, I've expressed a lot of regret already.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:19] Especially it relates to my work.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:22] I think that the biggest regret I have is when I. When I, you know, I went through a faith crisis several points throughout my life, but each time it kind of got deeper. Yeah, I went through a little bit growing up in high school, and then a little bit more on my mission, and then a little bit more in 2001.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:43] It's like unpeeling the layers of the onion, but every time you kind of think you're through, you're kind of like, oh, made it past that. Like, I'm glad I'm okay.

John Dehlin [00:40:52] Like, my faith crisis, there were always something to keep me from, like, really going down the rabbit hole. So I went down a little bit in high school, and then a little bit more on my mission, a little bit more at byu, a little bit more when I, you know, was at Microsoft and was that seminary teacher. But there was always something to keep me from going all the way.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:10] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:41:11] And it wasn't until, like, 2000, 2011, where I kind of really went all the way to the point where I was questioning God, questioning Jesus, questioning Christianity, questioning. And in that full unraveling led me to question my marriage to you, and it led me to question our family.

John Dehlin [00:41:37] And there was a. There was a good year where I was just lost. Like, I feel like I have been an honest person, a moral person, or at least tried to be, or at least I thought of myself that way of moral, chaste person. And kind of that 2011, 2012 framework was like, I was lost. I wasn't being honest with you.

John Dehlin [00:42:04] I was questioning whether I even liked you or wanted to be married to you. As offensive as that seems now, as preposterous as that seems now, I was questioning whether it was good for our family to be together, whether our family should even stay together.

John Dehlin [00:42:19] I was questioning who I wanted to be and what I wanted to be and our marriage and our family and everything. And I mistreated you. I disrespected you, and I disrespected our kids, and I disrespected our family. I disrespected myself, and I disrespected other people who were in my life at the time in a period of complete disorientation.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:48] And so, yeah, you know, and I did a lot of damage in that year, year and a half. And in some sense, from 2012 to now has been a repair of our relationship, a repair of, you know, a rebuilding of trust with you, of. With our kids and of other relationships and that, you know, that, you Know, on the one hand, you know, I did things I swore I'd never, ever, ever, ever do. Like, I. Up until that point, I defined my whole life is not doing certain things and not being certain things.

John Dehlin [00:43:30] And I. And in some ways, I. I betrayed what I thought is my core identity and the core standards that I have for myself and I. And it. I think our kids and you and our relationship have scars, real, meaningful scars that I. That I. That in my blindness during that sort of prodigal period, just didn't see the real wounds and scars that would come from. From that behavior. I didn't realize how much damage I would be doing.

John Dehlin [00:44:08] But. So, yeah, I really, really regret the ways I hurt you and the kids and other people in my life at the time, and it's not my job to tell their story, you know, But. But I. I really regret all that. And. But we didn't. What, What. What was that?

Margi Dehlin [00:44:32] Oh, I thought you were going to naturally. Bridge to the next question. Yeah, follow up.

John Dehlin [00:44:36] What's the follow up?

Margi Dehlin [00:44:37] And first of all, I was just gonna say, like, I do have that, like, experiencing it with you. I did have that sense of, you were definitely lost to me, but you. The deepest worry was you were lost to you. And that feeling of just, I didn't know how to reach you. I couldn't reach you, you know, and. But also that, you know, I myself have gone through some periods like that on some level where I haven't known what you don't know, what you didn't. What you don't know in the moment. If we did, we would do it differently, you know, and sometimes we are blindsided.

Margi Dehlin [00:45:13] I think I, on a level, was blindsided by the death of my dad. As prepared as I felt, I knew where that train was headed for a decade, you know, but still, there are things that you experience and you don't. You don't know how deep it's going to go or to what layer it's going to, you know. And so I think everyone who lives and love's large and really is out there. Right.

Margi Dehlin [00:45:41] There are going to be times when you're a little bit lost to yourself. Right. And your partner experiences that with you. So what did that experience bring you or us that you or we did not have before?

John Dehlin [00:45:57] Yeah. There's a saying from one of my favorite musicians that I think comes from Rumi, but it's just that the heart. The heart doesn't start to operate correctly until it's been broken. It's this irony of. And it goes Back to Jesus and the broken heart and the contrite spirit. I never knew what that meant. I and my desire to be Nephi for so long. Don't ever drink, don't ever smoke, don't ever have premarital sex.

John Dehlin [00:46:31] You don't ever do drugs. Be honest, you know, my desire to always be Nephi, I never had truly made what I felt was like some catastrophic mistake that humbled me, that broke me, that hurt other people to the point where it really stopped me. And just for so many years, our marriage lacked emotional intimacy. Not that you weren't willing to give it. You were always willing to give it, but I didn't understand what that meant. I had these wounds from my parents divorcing, from my. My older siblings leaving home because I was so young. I just, I grew up and all the step parents, you know, my, my dad being married five times, my mom being married three.

John Dehlin [00:47:19] If I got some. If I got some lesson out of life, it was that people leave you. It was that people disappoint you and ultimately leave you. And so that was my wound. And so I built up through achievement in high school and through corporate commercial success and then through Mormon stories and the Open Stories foundation and service.

John Dehlin [00:47:47] Those were all protections. So I can create 20,000 friends where if any one person leaves you, there's 19,999 others that can backfill. But what that really is, but it leaves all these relationships shallow. Not just where I felt like they were shallow, but I'm sure a lot of the people that I've interacted with have felt like the relationships were shallow.

John Dehlin [00:48:20] And it left us in a marriage where neither of us were feeling emotionally connected or emotionally fulfilled for, I don't know, 15, 17 years, 18 years. And we were both just feeling completely unfulfilled in many ways. I mean, we exercised together, we talked a lot, we raised our kids.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:39] I want to say, if you actually looked at our life, we were very connected. To me, it's just, it's symbolic again of that. You don't know what you don't know. And we were structured. We were, we were. Our relationship was under an operating system. We. And it was kind of the church and the structure and what do we do now? And what mean, what's the next step and what is it supposed to look like? It wasn't internal, so it makes sense on some level. It all imploded around transition time because we got rid of the operating system. And it's like you literally come to and it's not just on a religious level.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:23] It's with all your relationships, it's with your sense of purpose. It's your sense of identity and what your dreams now could be. And this is something. I know it's redundant, but you and I see it a lot in coaching is, you know, just to what extent, you know, it can hit you.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:42] And it wasn't that we necessarily had. I don't see our relationship as, like, wow, we just weren't connected. I think we had a good marriage. I think we had a better marriage than most. We spent more time together. But that shift of the operating system, we woke up and we were like, wait, so what would emotional intimacy even look like? You know, what does that mean? And can I have it with that person? Because, you know.

John Dehlin [00:50:08] Yeah. Yep. Yeah. So we functioned. The. The Mormon paradigm functioned really well for us until it completely fell apart. The patriarchy, the I work, you stay home, we raise the kids. You know, our identity, our meaning, our purpose, all that in the Mormon context, it worked until it catastrophically unraveled. And the gift of that.

Marriage Struggles and Hard-Won Growth

John Dehlin [00:50:36] I've already talked about the do tell. Yeah, the gift of that is, I think, over the past seven years, you know, there's this quote that I say a lot from Esther Perel. Everyone's going to be married at least two or three times or more.

John Dehlin [00:50:56] The question is whether it's with the same person or with a different person. In other words, by just this. You know, it's the same spirit of, like, spring, renewal, resurrection, born again, whatever you want to call it. It's all about what we had was great and it served its purpose, and then it failed and died catastrophically.

John Dehlin [00:51:19] But then, like the phoenix rising from the ashes, it forced us, including all my mistakes, forced us to take very seriously whether we wanted to be married to each other. And it forced us to look at every piece, and it forced us to understand what emotional intimacy is, what vulnerability is at a much deeper level, what commitment is, what fidelity is, what joy is, what family means, what our relationship is. And while it was grueling work, while we hurt each other really badly, while our kids are scarred from some of that transition, I feel very, very, very fulfilled from what we've built. I feel very committed.

John Dehlin [00:52:10] I feel very fulfilled. I feel very happy. And by the way, our marriage didn't just die once. I think we're probably on our fourth marriage. I mean, by my count. And it died at least once since 2012. So for me, that's about four. We're in our fourth marriage, and these Deaths have been catastrophic, but every single time, what's emerged has been more connecting, more beautiful, more meaningful, more fulfilling than it was previous.

John Dehlin [00:52:48] So, for me, like, I'm starting to learn what love really is and what joy really is and what commitment really is. And it's. It's a wonderful surprise, you know, to a life that at one point I just kind of looked around and said, if this is as good as it gets, I'm not really interested.

John Dehlin [00:53:10] I never thought this level of joy and commitment and connection would be possible for me, especially for how broken I come and how difficult my journey has been. It's been amazing. And so when we started the Gift of the Faith Crisis, or whatever we've been doing together, the retreats and the workshops, it's never been out of a desire to make money. It's never been out of a desire to put ourselves up as heroes or role models for anyone. It's literally been just like, whoa. We went through something really hard individually in our relationship and with our kids and with our family, and we've actually found a lot of joy and meaning from it.

John Dehlin [00:54:00] And it's like lehi and the fruit. We just. After tasting it, we've wanted to share it with as many people as possible, because I feel like too many marriages split up before they have a chance to find deeper levels of intimacy. Too many parenting child relationships get ruined, too many families get estranged.

John Dehlin [00:54:23] And I just want to share what we've learned and what we have with other people. That's my natural response to the joy. But I literally wake up every morning, and I hope you feel this, telling you how much I love you, how much I appreciate you, how grateful I am to have you in my life and for the family that we have.

John Dehlin [00:54:44] Yeah. And so that's been. I don't know how we would have arrived at this without the catastrophes that preceded. The catastrophes broke us open to then be able to allow us to rebuild at a better level. That's how I feel.

Margi Dehlin [00:55:05] Mm. Yep.

John Dehlin [00:55:07] How do you feel?

Margi Dehlin [00:55:08] I feel really similarly. I feel like we made conscious choices. You know, not every marriage should last. There are a lot of loves that are true.

John Dehlin [00:55:22] Amen.

Margi Dehlin [00:55:22] That don't last. So, you know, in having this conversation, I'm not holding marriage as, like, the love. I think there are a lot of loves, and if I think that's one of the realizations we came to is there are plenty of marriages that last 25 years, and you know what? They're not the greatest quality. You know, basically, you can end up and people really celebrate longevity as opposed to quality, I think, culturally. But I really was interested in quality. Like, I want to be with someone I can. Who's a true partner, that I can grow with that. It's. It hits on these deeper levels that can be married or not married these days.

Margi Dehlin [00:56:02] You know, that's not really the important part. But for me, that's what I was seeking. And I had that sense when we. I really feel like we burned that operating system down. We had to burn a marriage. We had to, like, obliterate it and just say, you know what? These things aren't working.

Margi Dehlin [00:56:18] I don't believe in that anymore. You know, this isn't making me feel closer to you. And it took a lot of effort to burn that baby down. And I don't feel like we've burned the whole thing down every time, but I feel like we have had, at different levels, to burn down parts of our relationship and to realize this hurts us, this hurts our connection, and it hurts people around us, and we can do better, and we've stepped away. In order to do that, we've had to create space to. To, you know, to be less close to the thing, to be less close to the pattern, to work with someone who allowed for us to engage particularly in conflict in a different way.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:05] But it's been the best building of our lives. I mean, it's been the. So, yes, I see. You know, we're. We're in a new day with marriage. We're renegotiating marriage more than ever before. We're expecting things out of marriage that people never expected. You know, what we want from our marriages, it's really different from what our parents wanted from theirs or our grandparents. You know, for a long time, it was just like, let's survive the winter, and then we've got it, you know, ooh, we're really on our way. If. So, anyway, those are some of my

John Dehlin [00:57:41] reflections, and I just want to reflect what you said. There are marriages that should end. There are marriages where everyone's better off if they end. And so I. I want to also bless that. That some of the biggest heroes are the people that have the courage to end the marriage.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:59] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:58:00] And to.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:01] So that the love can live. Because if you stay married and it's not working, you can get to a point where you hate the other person and all sense of, like, the person being human. And you can respect that individual and respect your parents, you know, that other spouse. It's. You know, it can be an act of true courage and Integrity to say, I love you so much. I release. We can both see that this love, you know, is not a healthy place married. So let's release it so the love can live.

John Dehlin [00:58:34] Amen. Thank you for bringing that in. That's super important.

Favorite Podcasts, Books, and Films

Margi Dehlin [00:58:41] So the next question would be these are some fun. We get to get into some of the fun ones.

John Dehlin [00:58:46] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:47] Okay. So what are some of your favorite podcasts that you're listening to right now?

John Dehlin [00:58:52] I've been enjoying Sam Harris's. It used to be called Waking Up. Now it's called Making Sense. Some of his interviews have been really interesting. I think he's very wise and thoughtful. I enjoy, you know, WTF with Marc Maron sometimes. I've enjoyed Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard. Dax Shepard sometimes. I've always enjoyed Oprah, you know, her super Soul Sunday kind of stuff.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:23] Secular Buddhism.

John Dehlin [00:59:24] Oh, I love Secular Buddhism is like my go to podcast.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:28] Shout out.

John Dehlin [00:59:29] Shout out to Noah. When I'm ruminating at night now or early morning, 3am, 2am I'll go downstairs and put on Secular Buddhism and just listen to his wisdom. He's. He's one of my heroes. And I love Secular Buddhism. Podcast. I still sometimes listen to Fresh Air with Terry Gross or Radio west with Doug Fabrizio. I really enjoyed, I really enjoy that John Larsen's back. I've enjoyed a couple of his interviews. I think he's brilliant.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:01] Nice.

John Dehlin [01:00:03] And yeah, those are some. Are there some?

Margi Dehlin [01:00:06] I'm forgetting nothing that I can. What about some of your favorite nonfiction books? And I don't want to put pressure on this because I, I feel that sometimes when people ask me. So just name some.

John Dehlin [01:00:21] No, I've got some. So, like one of my favorite books, the reason why I named Winston Winston is from the book the Last Lion Alone, which is a series of books about Winston Churchill by William Manchester. I never understood and Winston Churchill is a very controversial figure. He made huge mistakes and you know, his place as a warrior will always be controversial in addition to racism and sexism and all sorts of problems. But the way he was washed up as a politician in the early 30s and discredited for all his mistakes, including supporting the gold standard including Gallipoli, including opposing Gandhi. He had all the reasons to be a washed up has been of a politician.

John Dehlin [01:01:13] And then to see his rise. He detected the Nazi threat before while British yuppies were wearing swastikas as charm bracelets and hailing the coming of Hitler. British people were right. He detected that threat and stood against Nazis and rose up. The Last lion alone. By William Manchester. Master of the Senate is a phenomenal book about Lyndon B. Johnson and how he wielded power. And I'm not a power monger, although I think about power a lot and I think I sometimes am powerful and sometimes I act like I am a weakling.

John Dehlin [01:01:59] Power matters and either you're a victim of it or you're a wielder of it, or you're a sharer of it. But we often give John F. Kennedy the credit for the civil rights movement or Malcolm X or Martin Luther King Jr. But Lyndon B. Johnson played a super important role in, in the civil rights movement and specifically in, in convincing Southern senators to pass the Civil Rights act of 1964. And Robert Carroll's Master of the Senate does just a brilliant job of, of explaining how, how that happened.

John Dehlin [01:02:38] And he's a unsavory hero. Lyndon B. Johnson, if you. He would go to the bathroom in front of people just to show his exhibition of power. Very manipulative, controversial person. But also you needed him to make the civil rights activity of 1964 happen. So there's that there's no Ordinary Time, which is about Franklin D. Roosevelt, but also about Eleanor Roosevelt and their relationship. And it was an unconventional relationship, but they, they work together in very powerful ways and in very unconventional ways. And that was very inspiring to me. Yeah, I'll always look at the Autobiography of Malcolm X as a favorite nonfiction book as well as Eckhart Tolle's A New Earth. So those are some of my favorite nonfiction books.

Margi Dehlin [01:03:36] How about fiction?

John Dehlin [01:03:38] I always go to east of Eden, you know, by Jonathan Steinbeck as being one of the most profound books about human nature and the human experience. Check it out. East of Eden, it's definitely one of the best. All of the Kaim Potok series, the Chosen, the Promise, My Name is Asher Lev and David's Harp are just super powerful fictional books, but they speak truth more than anything else. Those are some of my.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:10] That are coming to mind.

John Dehlin [01:04:12] My favorites. There are many, many more. I'm forgetting.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:15] Yeah, yeah. What music do you love?

John Dehlin [01:04:18] I always love the Beatles. They're my. I was going to wear a Beatles shirt today. I know almost all the Beatles collection. I've read several biographies. I love the Beatles.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:29] We've watched that documentary. That's.

John Dehlin [01:04:31] We've watched several documentaries. Yeah. I love, I love classic rock, so Journey, Foreigner, Sticks, Van Halen, acdc, Rush, you know, just all those classic rock groups. Sticks, Kansas, just all those groups. That's some of my go to. But I also really love John Denver and Dan Fogelberg and James Taylor. A lot of that singer, songwriter stuff. Jackson Brown, Love. Billy Joel. Love. Elton John. And then in modern times, Indigo Girls and David Wilcox over the years. Those are kind of my go to.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:13] And you love kind of Broadway.

John Dehlin [01:05:16] Oh, I just freaking love dear Evan. Dear Evan Hansen. Wicked. You know, Joseph and the Amazing Tentacle, Dreamcoat, Les Miserables, Phantom of the Opera, Andrew Lloyd Webber stuff. Book of War musical. Like I'm a huge sucker. Hamilton.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:34] Hamilton.

John Dehlin [01:05:35] You know, also. Oh, Waitress, Waitress. We love. Yeah, absolutely. And the one about mental illness.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:47] Oh, normal next to normal.

John Dehlin [01:05:51] Yeah. Just love Broadway. It's a deeply meaningful part of my life.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:55] It's partly why I love karaoke so much. In another life, I would be a singer, songwriter, Broadway star, but my voice can't carry me.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:05] I love your voice. So what are some movies that have made you a better human?

John Dehlin [01:06:13] Definitely. It's a Wonderful Life and you can't take it with you. And Mr. Smith goes to Washington. All three with Jimmy Stewart. All three with Frank Capra. Definitely A Man for All Seasons, which is about Sir Thomas More. So many movies. Movies are just a huge, important part of my life. I was inspired by Rocky. I was inspired by Karate Kid. I was inspired by, you know, ET and then, you know, I love the world. You know, the Royal Tannenbaums and Rushmore and who's the director?

Margi Dehlin [01:06:50] Wes Anderson.

John Dehlin [01:06:51] Wes Anderson. I love his movies. I love the Godfather series one and two at least. There's so many movies. Movies are just such a huge part of my life. I love freaking Marvel movies and the whole Marvel. I love superheroes. I love X Men.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:07] I love X Men. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:08] I just love this idea of superheroes. I've always been from Spider man and Batman in my childhood. I've just always loved the idea of superheroes. And that goes with my love of Martin Luther King Jr. And Maya Angelou and Gandhi and Oprah and Brene Brown. I just love extraordinary humans. I believe in human potential. I believe in people who can rise above and make a big difference in the world. And so superheroes reflects that for me

Margi Dehlin [01:07:42] and X Men in particular. It's oftentimes people who are marginalized, their gifts are viewed as threatening or not necessarily gifts. Right. But in the end, they're the things that allow the other people to live those parts of themselves. X Men is particularly. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:03] And someone like Wolverine, it's his passion that makes him so effective and strong.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:08] We're such nerds.

John Dehlin [01:08:08] But then he's tormented by it.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:10] Or there's Deep meaning. There's deep meaning.

John Dehlin [01:08:13] Yeah. Every superhero, their superpower is also their weakness, you know, and creating villains that

Margi Dehlin [01:08:19] you feel for that they're not just easy to dismiss, but they have anyway.

John Dehlin [01:08:24] Yeah. And some of my favorite superhero people, whether it's Javert and Les Misera or Magneto. Magneto and X Men, I love it when the villains are understandable and they have. They actually are fighting. They have their own story, and they're also fighting for their version of goodness and truth. And maybe it's just twisted or warped, but I love it when heroes are humanized and villains are also personalized in ways that are humanizing.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:58] Yes, yes.

John Dehlin [01:09:00] And there's a million movies I'm not mentioning, but. Yeah, we don't have time.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:04] Yeah. So last question.

Legacy, Apologies, and Closing Gratitude

John Dehlin [01:09:07] Last. Are we at the end?

Margi Dehlin [01:09:09] You've done such a.

John Dehlin [01:09:10] Are we at the end?

Margi Dehlin [01:09:11] Such a Beautiful job.

John Dehlin [01:09:12] Done a beautiful job.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:13] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:09:14] This will be one of the shortest episodes ever of Mormon stories.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:17] Yeah, that's not saying a ton, but after you're gone from the planet. So how would you like to be remembered? And I would love for you to answer that. Professionally remembered or kind of impact on the world and then personally remembered more for your children or loved ones?

John Dehlin [01:09:41] That's hard because in both of those cases, I'm very far from how I want to be remembered. So professionally, I'm very, very happy with Mormon stories and the impact that it's had on Mormonism and on the lives of Mormons and post Mormons in and out of the church. I feel like I could die today and I will have made a contribution that helped a lot of people and that made a difference. But I'm really unsatisfied with kind of the arc because so much of Mormon stories has been about deconstruction and about shedding beliefs and.

John Dehlin [01:10:21] And behaviors. So I hope with the remaining years that I have to be able to bridge that, to have my legacy be not that I helped a bunch of people make sense of their faith or learn about their faith or deconstruct their faith and move to an unorthodox or a secular place, or to improve the church and make it better in the ways that I think that we have. That's not what I want to be known for. What I want to do is find partners like you, like Natasha, like the people that are helping out with the Thrive Conference. Like past and current board members, like past and current partners.

John Dehlin [01:11:05] Former friends. Former enemies. Current enemies, Current friends. Team with people to create a what's next? Which is A healthy, vibrant, healing path of spirituality and of mental health and of connection and of community for. For future generations. If orthodox religion and fundamental religion isn't going to be what carries us into the future, and it seems like the writing's on the wall, maybe in the developing world, fundamentalist religion will always have its place, but for as long as we have a developed world. And when I say developed, we're screwed up in all sorts of ways. We may be more classically educated or classically affluential. Affluent, classically civilized in some twisted, patriarchal, white, Western way, right?

John Dehlin [01:12:04] Yeah, but so there's all sorts of problems with where the developed world is at the same time. That's where all the money and power, a lot of the money and power, is right now in civilization. So if we're going with whatever money and power and influence the developed world has as religion fades, I would love to have my legacy be he played a role in partnering with others to move us to a place of higher enlightenment, of less patriarchy, of less homophobia, of less racism, of more community and of more healing and growth that was done without religious fundamentalism. And that's really hard because what's made religion so successful is guilt.

John Dehlin [01:12:56] You know, what people hate about religion is guilt and shame and fear and patriarchy. And what's made religion so successful, like what's been part of the secret sauce of the success of religion and has been guilt and shame and fear and patriarchy. And so the real pioneering work for me of the 21st century and beyond is how do we create the community, the identity, the spirituality, the morality, the growth.

John Dehlin [01:13:24] How do we create that without fundamentalist religion? And it's super incredible. We've just, over the past 14 years in progressive post Mormonism, we've just started tasting what that might be, whether it's with the Oasis communities or with Sunstone, or with the Mormon spectrum communities or the podcast communities or the Facebook groups or ordained women or all the different movements. We're trying to figure out what community is we. We're trying to figure out who are we if we're not orthodox Mormons? Are we Mormon anymore? Are we just humans?

John Dehlin [01:14:08] So many people want to just leave Mormonism behind, and sometimes they do, but sometimes they don't. And sometimes people like John Larsen come back and say, hey, I left for four years and I wasn't able to leave it. And the answer isn't to go leave it, but to stay in the community and create the what's next as liberal Mormons or progressive Mormons or post Mormons or as not any type of segmented Mormon, but instead just as a group of people who share a common ancestry and a common set of former beliefs. I don't know what it looks like. I just know it's super hard and I've made a big mess trying to find some solutions.

John Dehlin [01:14:52] I've made a lot of amazing friends who are carrying the start that, you know, I sort of like, I sort of like looked at Eugene England and Lowell Bennion and Ted your Lyon and, and Dialogue and Sunstone and Mormon History Association. I kind of looked at that and said, how do we take that and figure out what's next? And then we've had the past 14 years where a lot of good things have happened, but a lot of bad things have happened, a lot of hard things have happened.

John Dehlin [01:15:24] I'm really interested and want my legacy to be. How did I team with others to create that what's next not just for Mormons and post Mormons, but for evangelical, former evangelical Christians and evangelical Christians and Jews and ex Jews and Scientologists and ex Scientologists and all those people.

John Dehlin [01:15:47] Because I don't want my legacy to be one of deconstruction and doubt and skepticism and disbelief. But building is much harder than is creating. Sorry, building and creating is much harder than is deconstructing and unraveling. And so I just have no idea how this is going to play out. But I do want to be a constructive part of that future. That's my professional desire for legacy.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:17] Well, that'll keep you busy for the next 50. So you've got your first 50, so you know, your next, you know, maybe realistically we got 40 or 30 or 40 years.

John Dehlin [01:16:27] Yeah. Anyway, that'll, that'll, that'll take me to my death. I think if I can survive. And that's always a day to day question in this space, but if I can survive. And then just as a, as a human, I want.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:45] No, not as a human, more with your personal relationships.

John Dehlin [01:16:48] So yeah, I wanna, I want to move to a person who is, I don't want to be glib about this, Margi, like, or Jesus like or you know, a person who is present. I want to, I want my loved ones to say he saw me, he heard me, he accepted me, he connected with me, you know, he loved me with full attention, with full presence, with full connection. And I'm just, I am thousands of miles away from that.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:35] We all are. I feel like that's the challenge, right, of kind of being alive right now. But you're Pretty. Pretty good, babe, I have to say. Pretty mindful, pretty showing up for. That's all I can say. Is there anything else you want to say before we kind of wrap it up and call it a day?

John Dehlin [01:17:58] Just. Just how. How, you know, I've tried to be vulnerable and introspective about my weaknesses. So, you know, a formal apology, you know, again, to board members, staff members, volunteers, community members in and out of the church, the church post Mormon community. A formal, what I feel is a sincere apology for just all the ways that I've hurt feelings and damaged relationships and made a mess trying to do good. A formal apology and a huge expression of thanks to all the listeners, all the donors, all the former and current board members, all the former and current volunteers, all the former and current staff members, and all the people that.

John Dehlin [01:18:54] Because it's been. It's been super brutal, but it's been super fulfilling and rewarding. It's been incredibly moving to be a part of so many people's lives for good or for ill. It's been a real. I mean, I don't have many gray hairs, and I think part of that is maybe genetics, but part of it is I just.

John Dehlin [01:19:17] I feel so lucky to bless, to have been your partner with our kids and our family in this space and to have been a part of so many people's lives. So many people put their confidence in me, their trust, their donations, their support, their volunteer efforts, their heart and labor.

John Dehlin [01:19:39] And I'm overflowing with remorse and a desire to apologize, but also with abundance and gratitude for the life I've been able to live and for the part, the small part I've been able to play in this world, this little arena that we're in. So that's. And I just want to thank you for doing this interview because these are things I've wanted to say for years and years, but I haven't known the right way to say it. And we didn't plan this. I don't think I gave you one question.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:15] Nope. They were from me.

John Dehlin [01:20:17] These were all from you. And I looked at them, like early, but then 10 minutes before. And this was not premeditated. I don't think the answers. But you've allowed. And as indulgent as this is and as bored as many people may have been who are hopefully educated and maybe inspired by something, thank you for giving me a chance to be on the other end of the microphone and say, express a lot of things I've wanted to express for a long time.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:48] Thank you for being Willing and your heart is a gift, just pure and simple. And one thing I was going to just reflect on, you know, echo in your statement with Mormon Stories is one of the most beautiful aspects to me about Mormon Stories is for someone who, at face value, it can look like it's John doing an interview or, you know, he has a. Whatever, this whole library of interviews. But really what to me it symbolizes is this collective creative act. Right. And everyone's participated, either through their emails to you or outreach or being part of a community or listening to the interviews or being interviewed. And it's all these people that have come together and, you know, participated and created into the making of this thing that is bigger than, you know, any one of us could have been. And that's one of my favorite things about this creative work.

John Dehlin [01:21:53] Yeah. And the group I want to maybe thank most of all are all the interviewees that I've done over the years.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:59] You've been willing to.

John Dehlin [01:22:01] It's been all of you from episode two onward who've been willing to share your stories. It's hard to share your stories. It's scary, it's vulnerable, but it's an act of courage. But it's been the stories. It's been the people, the interviewees of Mormon Stories who have provided all the power and of course, the donors and the volunteers and the listeners and the commenters and. And all the people that have given me feedback. But really huge thank you to everyone who has allowed me to interview them for Mormon Stories over the years. Because I think we've done something powerful and important and flawed and flawed and beautiful.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:45] Well, because we're human and we're on. But it also kind of points to never underestimate the power of your own story and the telling of it, and never underestimate the power of really listening and holding someone else's story. Yeah, it's both. Yeah. So thank you, John Dehlin.

John Dehlin [01:23:06] Thank you, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:07] It's a pleasure today.

John Dehlin [01:23:07] Margi Weber. Dehlin, thanks for holding my story. You're a wonderful interviewer. Can we get you to do more interviews?

Margi Dehlin [01:23:14] No, thank you. I'm retiring. No, a real quick retire. No, no,

John Dehlin [01:23:22] don't retire. Let this be the first of many. Well, thank you. I love you.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:27] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:23:28] Huge thanks to Cody Layton for always doing the audio visual. Huge thanks to

Margi Dehlin [01:23:36] the audience.

John Dehlin [01:23:37] Our board members, you know, the current board, as of 2019, up until recent, has been Steve Holbrooke and Nadine McCombs Hansen and Jeremy McDonald and Kim Sandberg Turner. We're going to be having, we will always have board turnover. We're going to be losing and gaining board members in the coming months and years. That's never going to change. But huge thanks to the board for this year, for all they've done and are doing.

John Dehlin [01:24:09] Huge thanks to those who donated this new set. We have a new set to make our interview space a little more beautiful and comfortable. Yeah, and just a huge thanks to Clint and Jenny Martin and, you know, Holly Alden has helped as well to just make this beautiful space and the donors who allow us to pay for this space every month.

John Dehlin [01:24:43] So many people to thank. And again, we couldn't do this without the donations. So all the donors that donate and who've donated over the years to Mormon Stories Podcast and to the Open Stories foundation, thank you so much.

John Dehlin [01:24:58] And thanks to Natasha and Dan and Gina and all those podcasters who have helped us over the years. Lots of thanks. My heart is full. So much gratitude, a lot of abundance. So thanks for tuning in, everybody, and we hope you've enjoyed today. And we've got a lot of good stuff coming up. I've got over 160 people lined up for interviews, so there's a lot more to come as long as people are willing to help keep the lights on. So thanks for everyone and please stay tuned soon for another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. And please reach out to Cody Young and Leah Young and Brinley Young as they face excommunication this Sunday, April 14th, I believe.

John Dehlin [01:25:46] Please send them your love and support and find a way to support them if you can, because they deserve our love and support. All right, thanks, everyone. Take care. See you soon.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.