Introducing Lowell Bennion and His Legacy

Stirling Adams [00:00:02] My name is Stirling Adams. Welcome to this interview with Mary Lythgoe Bradford about the life of Lowell Banion. Mary, thanks for joining me.

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:00:11] Thank you.

Stirling Adams [00:00:13] Mary has written dozens of essays, articles and poems in many Mormon publications, including the Ensign, BYU Studies, Dialogue, the Journal of Book of Mormon Studies, Sunstone, and Exponent 2. She is a former editor of Dialogue, a journal of Mormon Thought. She edited a collection of essays, among other collections called Mormon Women Speak. And the books she has written include, relevant to today's discussion, your biography, which we've got here, called Lowell L Teacher Counselor Humanitarian. Lowell was born in 1908 and died in 1995. Before we delve into some specific questions, could you give us a general overview of Lowell and his multiple careers?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:00:59] Well, he had 27 years at the institute, 10 years at the U of U, and I don't know how many years at Boys Ranch and then went down to Salt Lake City, take over the community service organization.

Stirling Adams [00:01:18] He was the director of the Area Community Services Council. Do you know how long he did that?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:01:22] About 10 years.

Stirling Adams [00:01:24] So roughly he was at the U

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:01:26] for about 10 years and then 25 years or so at the Institute across the street from the U.

Stirling Adams [00:01:32] It seems almost as if he's divided up into three careers.

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:01:36] That's how he put it.

Stirling Adams [00:01:37] And that's how you've titled the book. You've got his teaching career, then his counselor career, which was at the U. And then the humanitarian work. Can you talk a little bit about his educational background? Where did he study?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:01:51] He received his MA at the U. And then he went overseas on a mission to Swiss German mission and his father sent money so he could stay there and study and longen university at Germany and went on to Vienna from there. Graduated

Stirling Adams [00:02:16] from Strasbourg, so got a PhD in sociology.

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:02:20] Yeah, Philosophy of economics, something like that.

Stirling Adams [00:02:24] And his dissertation, can you tell us about that?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:02:27] It was on Max Weber methodology of Max Weber and was written in English. He studied it in German and passed his exam in French and wrote it English. And it was the first thing of its kind, I think, in English, which looked at Weber's philosophy in a practical way.

Stirling Adams [00:02:52] And then he returned to the United states in about 1933 after finishing that dissertation and took a turn away from philosophy, economics and became a teacher.

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:03:05] Yes. People who have looked into this say that he could have gone anywhere, probably Harvard or whatever having such a prestigious doctorate, but his wife wanted to return to Utah and he decided to look into that.

Stirling Adams [00:03:22] How did he end up teaching in the institute program?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:03:27] Well, Don A. Woodsaw had been Overseas, I think, was head of the missions over there.

Stirling Adams [00:03:33] This is Apostle Widzo.

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:03:34] Yes. And he came to speak while Lowell was on mission, and Lowell was his interpreter. And so he was quite impressed with him, followed his career and called him up and said, we'd like you to begin an institute at the U. They had one already at Utah State.

Stirling Adams [00:03:55] So this would have been 1934. Can you describe what an institute is?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:04:01] Well, it's an institute of religion in which Mormon students study their religion across the street, usually from the university, so that they can go back and forth and talk about what they're learning. Kind of put it all together so they won't lose their faith while they're at school. It's also a social institution. You can meet other Mormon kids, have a great time while they're in school.

Stirling Adams [00:04:31] I understand you attended the institute at the University of Utah.

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:04:35] Yes.

Stirling Adams [00:04:36] About what years?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:04:38] 1950-53 and then 56. I graduated twice from the institute.

Stirling Adams [00:04:45] Was that interesting for you?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:04:46] Yes, I couldn't leave it. I loved it.

Stirling Adams [00:04:49] Did you have classes from Lowell?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:04:51] Yes, Lowell Lyon, Taylor Lyon and George Boyd and Marion D. Hanks.

Stirling Adams [00:04:59] So in the 50s, those were the main four faculty there. You say you loved the institute. Tell us about that.

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:05:07] Well, it was a wonderfully wholesome way to go to school. You had so many friends that way. And boys and girls together, too. Wasn't separated. We had boys, chapters and girls, but they met together. And you could meet friends that way and do everything together. It's kind of home away from home. A lot of people came from far and near to go there because they felt at home there. I, of course, was in the city. I wasn't too far away.

Bennion as a Teacher and Religious Thinker

Stirling Adams [00:05:39] What can you tell us about your experience with Lowell as a teacher?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:05:44] He was a wonderfully involving teacher. People would stand out in the hallway and get into his classes because he really cared about what he was doing and he cared about you. It made you feel that he knew you and the way he asked questions. You couldn't wait to get involved with this session.

Stirling Adams [00:06:06] You write about his methodology being, I guess, centered around asking questions. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:06:15] Well, as I said, he would come into the class and write on the board, what is your philosophy of life? Well, his CALO students hadn't thought much about that, would parrot what they heard in church. But he made us think about what we really believed. That was the first time we ever come across somebody that made us think that way. Neither like he cared what we said, too. It wasn't Just parroting an answer. We each had our own answers.

Stirling Adams [00:06:47] This reminds me somewhat of Gene England's writing about that same institute group where he mentions of T. Edgar Lyon, George Boyd, Randy Hanks and Lowell. And he wrote that something along the lines of when that faculty told us the Gospel was true and that it called us to a life of selfless service, we believed them. When they told us to be patient about the church's denial of priesthood to the blacks and that such a practice did not prove either that God was a racist or that the church was untrue, we trusted them. Was that your experience as a student?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:07:24] Yes. Yes. Gene was there with me. He was younger, but we had the same feelings.

Stirling Adams [00:07:30] Oh, really?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:07:31] Yeah.

Stirling Adams [00:07:32] So he was younger, but you would have been in the same institute classes because they weren't divided by sophomore, senior, etc.

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:07:40] Boyd taught so high on the high level philosophy, so that attracted only the upper class.

Stirling Adams [00:07:49] This is George Boyd. Gene spoke highly of Lowell. Also called him the best teacher I've ever known. And I think he said also, I believe he is also the best practical philosopher the eldest church has produced in the 20th century. In a 1992 Church News article, Lowell was credited with founding the Mormon institution of the Fireside. What were firesides like at the institute?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:08:17] Well, there was fire, a fireside, and he brought in speakers from all over.

Stirling Adams [00:08:23] Was this typically once a week? Once a month.

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:08:27] I don't know. It seemed like it was just once in a while.

Stirling Adams [00:08:31] Lowell had an emphasis on service. Were students involved in community projects?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:08:37] Oh, yes. He's very good at that. He tricked us into it. He'd have a service party. You show up there with staff and you go out to help a neighbor. One time we painted a house and brought in food and Lowell took the women home to stay because of the paint fumes. And then we would have a party afterwards with the dancing, even refreshments. So all part of the good life.

Stirling Adams [00:09:11] Did these service projects become a regular part of the student's life?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:09:15] Yeah, the first time I ever thought about service being something you could do and have fun at.

Stirling Adams [00:09:22] Did you or did students in general have a sense that the Institute offered a especially productive or enjoyable path to learning about the church?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:09:33] Yes. Some of us didn't have the money or inclination to join Pritchard Lindis, so

Stirling Adams [00:09:41] he founded his own, associated with the

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:09:44] institute, Lambda Delta Sigma. So you could join that for $3. I mean, so there was a reputation that only the inferior kids joined because they couldn't afford the others. But that's not True. Had lots of people who belonged to both, would come over there just to relax and have fun.

Stirling Adams [00:10:08] We discussed John Widtsoe, Apostle Widtsoe, who was in charge of the church's education system. And then Franklin west was also. What was Bennion's relationship as a teacher with those two men?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:10:20] He got along swell with those. He loved them. Frank west was really a fascinating guy and he was pushed out and nobody knows really why. He was just told to leave one day with.

Stirling Adams [00:10:40] Do you remember what year that was? Probably somewhere in here when there were changes at the Institute regarding Lyon and Lowell also.

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:10:50] No, that was before that. He had trouble with those feelings. I think his philosophy was different. Franklin West's west was progressive and he believed in student centered stuff, let them think through it and kind of build a class around it, which Lowell led to. I don't think the hierarchy like that was too freewheeling.

Stirling Adams [00:11:26] You write about Bennion's friendship with many church leaders, including President McKay, then First Presidency members Anthony Ivins, Stephen Richards, Hubie Brown and various other apostles. How did those friendships develop?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:11:40] Well, partly because of his father, Milton Bennon. Milton was president of the Sunday School superintendent, I guess, and became vice president of the youth. And he knew all the authorities and had them into his house.

Stirling Adams [00:12:00] Lowell spoke in General conference at President McKay's request and was widely sought as a speaker in many church venues, including BYU devotionals, where he spoke at least four times. Do you know what attracted McKay to Lowell as a speaker?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:12:20] Well, I think McKay really improved the way he spoke and could reach people. And since McKay had been in his home, also good friends of the family, he was glad to have him around. In those days, he would drive over in his Cadillac, over the tudes, as we called it, who would drive, okay, to ask him to speak. You know, that comes into his office one day. It was informal. I think those days it was still sort of a family oriented church.

Stirling Adams [00:12:55] Lowell and T. Edgar Lyon worked together at the Institute for decades. Can you talk a little bit about their relationship?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:13:02] Well, he called David and Jonathan one time, brothers. Said he had all the skills, that Lowell didn't have a perfect complement. And he admired him so much because Lyon was a family man and spent time with his kids and really meant a lot to him. He'd often have to wait for Lyon to come out to go to meetings because he was reading the story to his kids.

Stirling Adams [00:13:34] Did you get to know his children?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:13:35] Yes, I went to school with him. David down, the twins. David was a little bit younger than I And then two sets of twins with the same age as my two brothers. So we're all in school together.

Stirling Adams [00:13:52] Let's move from talking about his teaching experience a little bit about his view of religion, his philosophy of life. You gave the example of Lowell writing on the board, asking students, what is their philosophy? What would you say his philosophy of life was?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:14:10] Question? Best Christian I've ever known. And you put it into practice. You don't preach it so much as you do it. And there was a Buddha in there somewhere, too. He was Buddhist in his approach.

Stirling Adams [00:14:28] What do you mean by that?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:14:31] Balance. Everything should be in balance.

Stirling Adams [00:14:35] Comes to mind an article, I think it might have been called Three Loyalties in Religion, published in Dialogue, where he talked about that balance, said essentially that there's three basic loyalties in religion to persons, then to gospel principles, and then to the church. He said, they're not in conflict with each other, but blend beautifully. If I remember all three, and serve them in proper conjunction with the others. When you say he was Christian, what would that mean to him? And what does it mean to you to say that somebody is Christian,

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:15:13] that you're willing to serve others on whatever level you could? When you find out what the need is, you try to meet it at some level. And he said, it's hard to help people because you have to get through a lot of their problems as well as yours. You can't just say, well, I'm going to do this for you. You have to know what the person needs and what their own faith would be. He was just always giving everything away. He was very happy. Just before he died, he gave his. He smiled, just told me it was a matter of pride. I just gave the car away. And one day he gave the mattress away from their bed. And somebody down the street needed it more than they did. So his wife, Will, said, that's okay. We needed a new mattress. He was always doing things like that.

Stirling Adams [00:16:17] I can remember coming across his writings when I was at byu, and I was struck by the emphasis on service and more. So I was struck on his finding that in the Old Testament, which I didn't know enough about, I know.

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:16:33] So I called it the Unknown Testament.

Stirling Adams [00:16:36] Right? He wrote a book called the Unknown Testament. One essay in particular, I think this came out of a panel discussion on service. In this panel, he described five ways of being religious and said, all are valid and meaningful and can be supportive of one another. Then went on to say, none of them has any meaning unless it is accompanied by justice and mercy in human relationships. And Then said, you don't truly know religion if you don't know the writings of the prophets of the Old Testament. Amos, Hosea, Micah, Isaiah and Jeremiah. They reject every expression of religion if it is not accompanied by justice and mercy in human relationships. So then and now that certainly calls me to repentance. Can you talk a little bit about his love for the Old Testament?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:17:26] Yeah, I think this is the first time I ever knew about it myself. Jude justly love mercy walk with God. I took, you know, I studied classes and I took it at school. But he put it into practice. And the image of walking with God, not in front of him, not behind him, with him was important because God would not, would not force you to do anything. He was working within history himself so you could work with God. And I think the Old Testament made it clear, which I hadn't known before

Stirling Adams [00:18:20] when I was at BYU in 1988. Student review the off campus newspaper published a essay of his called the Weightier Matters. A short essay that my favorite that was also a favorite of Gene England's. He later described it as the best introduction to the values of Bennion's life and writing and one of the very best essays written in our time. I can remember from that him quoting from, I think Amos in the Old Testament and then essentially applying it to the saints of our time, saying that the scene that Amos describes might be compared to a ward dinner or social. The saints are busy enjoying food and entertainment, but they do not sorrow for the suffering of their brothers. Somehow these affluent saints lack any concern for those beyond their eyesight who are in need. Perhaps the greatest modern convenience is the ability to insulate against the poor. To assume either that there are no poor nearby or that some, some church or government program will take care of them. That seems to be a yes.

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:19:25] He made us aware of that. We didn't know that before.

Stirling Adams [00:19:29] Seems to be a common trend in many of his writings calling us to repentance on this issue of service and doing justice. In 1985, Deseret Book published Lowell's book called the Book of A Guide to Christian living that had 28 or 30 chapters divided into sections. One on the wisdom in everyday living, Lowell's practical side. There principles and ordinances of the gospel and then universal concepts. Can you tell us a little bit about Lowell's feelings for the Book of Mormon?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:20:05] Well, I think that he really, I think covers it. My thesis is Book of Mormon is a religious book, not a text in theology or history, geography, anthropology, excuse me, or archaeology. It's a religious teaching. I tried to pull out about 28 ideas I found in the book that are worth listening to and living by. Some are original, some are stated original ways, and some also appear in the Bible. I like the Book of Mormon. I like to teach it now. He said there are problems that they couldn't resolve. So he went to spent a semester at Washington State, take a class in archaeology. And he came home thinking, well, you couldn't prove it.

Stirling Adams [00:21:09] Did that mean that he felt it was not historical or that it was, but it couldn't be proved?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:21:14] No, I think it just felt couldn't prove it. And why bother? Because you're living it as a religious book and trying to find exactly where everything happened doesn't really help you all that much. You test it, you know, it's a blueprint to try it out, see if it works like the seed is tasty. And so he thought that the Book of Mormon gave ways to understand the gospel better, to bring Christ into this world, into our world, and make it more practical. And he says it's full of ethical values and affirmations that we need.

Writing for the Church and His Published Works

Stirling Adams [00:21:58] Let's talk a little bit about Lowell as a writer for the church. How did he first get into the business of writing lesson manuals that were official church manuals?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:22:09] Well, I think that that's what they wanted. They wanted him to write some lesson manuals to teach with.

Stirling Adams [00:22:15] So these would go along with what he was doing at the institute.

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:22:19] That first book, what's it called, this

Stirling Adams [00:22:24] first manual, I have a bibliography here.

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:22:27] There's published several times and hardback.

Stirling Adams [00:22:30] What about religion in 1934?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:22:33] That's the first one. And then, I guess then he had a later one.

Stirling Adams [00:22:38] Well, there's 25 to 30 manuals he wrote here. I won't read them all, but it

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:22:43] was the third or second Youth and

Stirling Adams [00:22:45] Its Religion, the Religion of the Latter

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:22:47] Day Saints, and that came out in hardback and used for all sorts of things at church. You still find it, I think, in used bookstores.

Stirling Adams [00:22:58] So it sounds like he started writing for the Institute and then eventually you can find his manuals written for Miamids, Amen and Gleaners, Sunday School, Relief society, priesthood, primary, etc.

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:23:10] He used them for everything but the one in which he describes the religion, that's a really important one.

Stirling Adams [00:23:18] Another one that appeared to have a long run was An Introduction to the Gospel. It was a 1955 Sunday school manual that I guess was used into the late 1960s.

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:23:29] And some people have tried to get them to redo it, Use it again. I wish they would. It gives you the whole thing in a way that you can put into practice a methodology like Mark's favor. It's just Mormon ethnology.

Stirling Adams [00:23:49] He was, in addition to the manuals, he was commissioned to write articles for various church magazines. Some of the people you talk about that specifically requested articles from him were apostles Anthony Ivins, Hubie Brown, John Widtsoe, and Ezra Taft Benson. Do you know when he was asked to produce an article, was it typically an assignment that he was asked to write about a specific topic?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:24:14] Yeah, usually it appeared in a magazine like Instructor or, you know, Ensign or whatever.

Stirling Adams [00:24:24] Gene England wrote about him that until authors were no longer identified in the 1970s, his name appeared more often than any other in LDS church lesson manuals for all auxiliaries. He has spoken in more essays and books over a greater variety of subjects than perhaps any other contemporary Mormon. He is the only one to have written for virtually every official and independent Mormon periodical of the 20th century. So, as a student, were people aware at the time that Lowell had that type of influence as a writer?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:24:59] No, they just thought he was our teacher. He loved him. He liked to encourage the students to do things that the tute that met with their studies. So I was asked to organize some poetry and things for the worship services. And he asked me to edit his book, Religion and Pursuit of Truth. That really gave me quite a lift.

Stirling Adams [00:25:35] Were you a student then?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:25:37] Yeah, graduate student.

Stirling Adams [00:25:39] You referred to the toot. That's evidently the term for the institute.

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:25:47] And so he did that a lot, helped us with our own protags.

Stirling Adams [00:25:55] What are some of Bennion's books or other writings that you'd recommend to someone as an introduction to his works?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:26:03] Well, I think his little book, first little book, he called it Things that Matter Most, Pocket Size, White Things that he had he published himself. He'd been reprinted several times. Very good introduction. He has it a pyramid of values which he lived by, easy to understand with examples. And that encouraged him to go on, do some other little books, nine or ten of them.

Stirling Adams [00:26:34] What about Jean England's the Best of Lael Bennion? Did that include some of the little books in it, or is it more

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:26:41] essays, Essays, speeches and essays, and certainly they relate.

Stirling Adams [00:26:47] That was published by desert book in 86, and then Lowell had the Unknown Testament, also published by desert book in 1988. Those books you can find at used bookstores or online. I guess there's several places where you can get some of his essays, his writings in The Ensign, the Improvement in Era, articles in Dialogue, Sunstone, Student Review. Those would all be available in the online archives of those publications. You write that as early as the 1930s, there was tension between some church leaders and the church's institute system over how literally the scriptures, particularly the Bible, should be interpreted. Can you describe that tension?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:27:31] No. I didn't really feel it in my day, but I know it always was a problem.

Stirling Adams [00:27:39] What was the problem?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:27:42] Well, Joseph Fielding and others like him were too little. It had to happen just that way. When he came along with his book on evolution, that started quite a storm.

Stirling Adams [00:28:03] This is Joseph Fielding Smith's book, Man

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:28:06] is origin and Destiny, 1954. I think he wanted Lowell and others to use that book to teach them. They said they couldn't do was in direct opposition to what they learned across the street in school. They didn't want to get involved with that. They wanted to teach evolution or anti evolution, would teach religion.

Stirling Adams [00:28:32] Well, speaking of that book, in 1954, just after it had come out, there was a seminar in the summer at BYU for the church education system instructors. And at a public question and answer session, Lowell asked quite respectfully how. I guess he was asking for advice on how to teach students about the issues of race in the church and how to teach about science and evolution. Can you tell us a little bit about that meeting?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:29:02] Well, two people, Mark Peterson, gave a racist talk, which Lowell objected to, and then Smith got up and talked about his book. So he took them both on at that meeting, saying he couldn't really teach that way, but he didn't believe that white people were inferior, couldn't teach it. He couldn't teach the evolution thing.

Stirling Adams [00:29:34] You describe his method of asking that question or talking about that in a way that calls to mind his teaching methodology.

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:29:42] Yeah, it was ask questions.

Stirling Adams [00:29:44] And that is what he really was doing, was asking a question of could you help me in figuring out how to teach this discipline?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:29:49] How could I do this? How can I present it to my students?

Stirling Adams [00:29:54] You mentioned that T. Edgar Lyon wrote Lowell a note afterwards and said it wasn't until you raised your question on Thursday at the conference about the problem of a boy who needs to be treated as a Christian that anyone sounded a sweet note. Your words fell like manna from heaven on a starving people. A Y man, meaning a BYU man sitting back of me, said to me in a low voice as you finished, what a thrill it must be to work with a man of love, vision, wisdom and insight, as well as great faith. You are to be envied well, what was, if any, the reaction by Joseph Fielding Smith or other church leaders to that? Did it create any waves?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:30:35] They met with him. Lyon and Bennu.

Stirling Adams [00:30:37] Met with who?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:30:39] Joseph Fielding, Mark Peterson. And he said it was a good meeting. They felt okay about it, but it was kind of what was going to happen further down the line.

Stirling Adams [00:30:50] So you think that Lowell's resistance to Joseph Fielding Smith's views on scientific matters helped earn Lowell maybe a spot on a trouble list?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:31:00] Yes, and McKay would defend him, but, you know, there's always these people. Danley Love.

Stirling Adams [00:31:12] Right. You mentioned that the institute instructors also met with McKay and asked him whether essentially they should require to use man his origin and destiny. And McKay told them that the book had not been authorized or approved and that it did not represent the position of the church on such matters as the age of the earth and the theory of evolution. And he told them to go on teaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ as you have been, and pay no attention to these foolish ideas that some people are trying to make appear to be the word of the Lord. But then you point out that shortly afterwards, still in 1954, Wilkinson created a list of institute teachers that he felt were not sufficiently orthodox. And the list included the Salt Lake Institute teachers who had been in these meetings, including Lowell Binion. Do you have a sense that that meeting put them on the list, or were they already identified as.

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:32:10] Oh, I think they already were.

Stirling Adams [00:32:11] As not orthodox enough.

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:32:13] I see. Ernie came in then in about 152. Yeah.

Stirling Adams [00:32:17] And I guess he replaced Franklin West.

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:32:20] Right. Unified Church Education System. That made a big difference.

Stirling Adams [00:32:25] So you write that in 1953, the new president of BYU at the time, Ernest L. Wilkinson, became the chancellor of what was the newly Unified Church Education System. That he had a vision of replacing the institutes completely with a system of LDS junior colleges, I guess in California, Salt Lake, different one in Idaho. These would be feeder schools for byu.

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:32:51] Yeah. And he required the institute people to send students to him. Read a letter saying transfer to byu. Well, lol. Couldn't do that. He thought the institute program should stay there.

Stirling Adams [00:33:09] So BYU was trying to recruit additional students.

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:33:12] Yeah. From the institute. And that really, Lowell couldn't do that. And that meant that he was on this list of being unsupportive.

Stirling Adams [00:33:24] You describe a campaign by Wilkinson against Franklin west, who was the previous head of Church Education, and against Bennion as the director of the institute. Did Wilkinson have issues with these men at the time, beyond the fact that they were involved in the institution he hoped to close?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:33:45] No. I Don't think he had anything against him personally.

Forced Departure from the Institute

Stirling Adams [00:33:50] So Wilkinson becomes Chancellor in 53 and you write about as early as 54. There's suggestions that there need to be changes at the institute. You describe in the books, in your book, events leading up to the time in 1962 when Lowell, as we'll talk about, was asked to leave the institute. The thing that's striking to me in learning about these events is here we have one of the most prolific authors of church manuals. He was loved and honored by thousands as a superb teacher and counselor, good friends with many church leaders, including President McKay and First Presidency members, various other apostles. He was frequently commissioned to write lesson manuals. Asked to write articles for virtually all the church magazines over four decades. Apostles from John Widtsoe to Ezra Taft Benson were some of those that specifically were requesting articles from him. His cousin, Adams Bennion was an apostle one time head of the Sunday schools. His father was a superintendent of the Sunday school. He was colleague and close friends with Frank West. He spoke in General Conference. And he was widely sought as a speaker in other church venues. But in spite of all this, in 1962, he's essentially pushed out of the church's institute program. Can you talk to us about what happened? Was he caught in a changing tide of church leadership?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:35:06] Well, I think that's part of it. I think it's over caused. Most things are people wanted to move on different directions. And he was so popular. I think there was some jealousy. Too many kids want to get into class. But I do blame Wilkinson because he was the one that put action in

Stirling Adams [00:35:30] his capacity as chancellor of the Unified Education System. What do you view as the main reasons behind the decision to remove him as a director?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:35:40] Well, Ernest had several lists. One thing was that he didn't like his attitude about the blacks. Another one was he didn't. He ran the back of authorities by arguing with his missionary system, the famous baseball missionary system. But he thinks those are only just excuses. He wanted to move him out of there.

Stirling Adams [00:36:08] If those were excuses, what would the principal reason have been?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:36:11] They just wanted to do it differently. It was too free wheeling. He had his own ideas. Students. There weren't as many students as they thought should be there. His idea was to cast a net. Not cast a net. Excuse me, not to cast a net, but to advertise. Say, we're here. Let people come of their own free will. But Wilkinson wanted to have a tightly run school thing with grades and credit. Love was opposed to that.

Stirling Adams [00:36:49] So you mention in the book that Wilkinson wrote up a list of five complaints against Lowell, and they included that he didn't recruit students aggressively enough first. And then second, the classes weren't academically rigorous enough because they were graded as pass fail, didn't require outside papers. Three, he hadn't pressed hard enough to convince the University of Utah administration to grant credit for institute courses. Four, that Bennion did not have a good defense of the church's position on the Negro question. In five, that Lowell had questioned the pressures put on missionaries to hurriedly baptize people into the church, Although evidently Wilkinson acknowledged that there were general authorities that shared the same critique. Let's take a look at just one of those areas, the Negro question. In 1984, there was an interview by Lowell, Public and Sunstone where Lowell said that as early as 1943 he had felt that there was no justification for the church's practice of not allowing persons considered to be black to participate in the temple or priesthood privileges. But it seems like that he took care not to go out of the way to criticize the church or its leaders over this issue. Can you talk about that?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:38:09] Well, he worked for the church. He ran Kid Daughter if he wanted to, but he thought you should work from within. He didn't think he should call the newspapers or things like that. And he always felt that way. So don't leave the church in the hands of the conservatives. Work within, believe.

Stirling Adams [00:38:33] It seems like the John Fitzgerald case in the 1960s was an example where he had publicly criticized the church's racial policy and was called to a trial for his excommunication. Lowell testified for John at the trial, but told the court that he felt the same way as John, but didn't believe that the way to bring about change was to do it publicly. That he wanted to respect the church's leadership and reputation.

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:39:02] Yeah, that's pretty good. I like that.

Stirling Adams [00:39:06] Before the 1978 revelation on this issue, had you heard Lowell talk about or discuss the priesthood, temple ban in class or elsewhere?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:39:15] No, not in class, usually. Just privately. We knew how he felt. We wanted work too, to see that come to pass.

Stirling Adams [00:39:25] Gene England writes about being in a class with Lowell in 1953 where Gene had repeated some of the folklore about blacks. Maybe that they weren't valiant in the pre existence, that dark skin was a curse or something like that. He writes that Lowell gently suggested that the God revealed in Christ would surely let blacks know what they had done wrong and how they could repent, rather than merely punishing them, since God had done no such thing. It seemed better to believe that blacks had been than. And we're no different spiritually from the rest of us. And Gene writes that that interaction in class led him to start reconsidering and change his position.

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:40:08] Yeah, that's why he did work with the student needs. And when revelation finally came through, we wanted him to come forth with a statement, with a thrill. He said, no, just go on and do what we think is right. But he was really happy about it.

Stirling Adams [00:40:32] In 1961, 62. Lowell's leaving the Institute. Did you. Did students in general at the time have a sense?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:40:42] Students were really upset, enraged before it occurred.

Stirling Adams [00:40:46] Did people know that the tension was there?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:40:48] Well, yeah, heard about it. I was in Washington, just had my second child. Washington D.C. very upset. I called Ben Binion and he said that Doug Alder was getting some letter writing campaign to Hugh B. Brown. But Lowell had said put a stop to it and said not to do it. We just wanted some way to vent. Where SOB said.

Stirling Adams [00:41:17] And then what happened then?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:41:21] Well, he just told us to go on. We had other things. He had another job and we shouldn't be so upset about. We had a party where we all honored him and the others. Old Lamb, Adele people. But it was very upsetting to us.

Stirling Adams [00:41:38] And then that's what he did. He moved on and immediately took a position at the University of Utah. Can you tell us about that?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:41:46] Well, luckily I was able to see the diaries of Alpin. They weren't available for a long time and they finally opened up and he had been. Avery Alpin had been wanting to ask Lauben and come across for years. He was in touch with.

Stirling Adams [00:42:06] By come across you mean from the

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:42:07] institute across the street?

Stirling Adams [00:42:08] Yeah, to the University of Utah.

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:42:09] And it was in Tetris, Ernest Wilkinson about it. Old school chums. And so they kind of got back and forth and Lowell was waiting to talk to President McKay about this whole thing. Never could get an audience with him. He wouldn't say whether he would come or not, you know. So finally Altman gave it to Neil Maxwell, Dean of Students. And Neil asked him to come as Associate Dean and also to work on a project with Youth Junior Delinquency Grant. They had some government. So that's what he did. He didn't want to be the dean. He never wanted to be an administrator, even though he was. But he liked working this job because he saw all those tribal students. Anybody who got in trouble came to him and he helped formulate a whole different way of doing student problems. So they would get due process you couldn't just kick a student out of class. You had to go through a project consisting of half teachers, half students. This was set up by law. It was a wonderful change in the school horses.

Stirling Adams [00:43:25] So he was there for a decade. How did he come to be viewed by the University of Utah community?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:43:33] Oh, they were all just thrilled to have him. Whenever he came he had such a feeling of peace and trouble coming up could be solved. And when he decided to leave school, said no, we'll just put you on leave, we want you to come back. We didn't want him to go.

Stirling Adams [00:43:52] What caused him to decide to leave?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:43:53] Well, his main reason was everything was changing there too. The dean of students left and new dean wasn't doing things the way Lowell liked to do. So he had people urging him to come down to the community services. So I thought well I'll go down there. He said, well try it for a while and see how you like it. For two years he was teaching part time at the UN, working downtown.

Stirling Adams [00:44:21] What was he teaching?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:44:27] Excuse me. Thomas o', Day, quite a famous sociologist, laughed and he took over his classes.

Stirling Adams [00:44:34] In 1958 President McKay asked him to speak in the priesthood session, I think of general conference and assigned him a topic of the dangers of going steady too soon and too much, which is almost a counseling youth topic. Did he have a reputation or did President McKay regard him as a particularly effective communicator to the youth?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:44:57] Yes, his courtship and marriage classes were famous. He had this dating method, ABC method. He dated three people aged know of each other and you get to know them before it gets serious. Because in those days going to state it was a real problem. People started out too soon, getting too serious. Nowadays there's more group dating and things like that. But in those days it's kind of a problem. So he had this famous ABC method and my husband and I went all the way to Z

Stirling Adams [00:45:36] once he left the U. It sounds like there was a transition period where he was working with the community services organization while part time teaching. And then he quit the teaching altogether. And at that time what did he do?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:45:51] Just stayed with the community services because it was a full time job.

Stirling Adams [00:45:56] And what did that organization do?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:45:58] Well, it was an umbrella organization. All the others fed into it for

Stirling Adams [00:46:05] services elderly for the county of Salt

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:46:09] Lake or the city, the whole state. And he reorganized it so it was more hands on.

Humanitarian Work and Community Service

Stirling Adams [00:46:21] And at the same time was he operating the boys ranch or were those exclusive activities? Tell us about the boys ranch.

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:46:28] Well, he'd always wanted to have a ranch where so the kids had learned to work the way he had learned. His uncle had him come work on his branch in Brendan, Utah area when he was about 14, 50. And it was so great because he had lived up by the U, you know, with his father. This way he got to be in the outdoors and learned how to work outside. It was so invigorating and a learning experience for him that he wanted to offer it to other kids. Nowadays there would be girls too, but in those days the girls came and helped with the food.

Stirling Adams [00:47:11] I understand one of your children first

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:47:12] when he was 13 and then when he was 15 he was a counselor so you could become a counselor.

Stirling Adams [00:47:21] How did Lowell enjoy or react to his third career of community service?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:47:27] Well, he always said, I used to teach religion. Now practice it was not true because they always practice it. But he just had a way of getting people to want to help. He would give a speech somewhere and he'd run up and say, how can I help? And he'd say, do you have an hour a day? Meet me such and such a place, Bring such and such tool. And they'd show up and he'd be there. Well, there are some criticism on that because you can't clone him. He can't be everywhere. So Charles Johnson, who was head of the United Way, I agreed with him about it. He said Lowell believed in the individual branching out and he thought it better to have a group which reached down to the individual. But Johnson said both are true and Boston to work for long. He could motivate people to want to do it.

Stirling Adams [00:48:29] In 1986, the University of Utah established the Lowell Bennion center for Community Services. Can you tell us about that?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:48:38] Well, that was a wonderful thing that his nephew Pony, he was vice president of the school at senior service organization at Stanford. He thought we should do something like the U service learning and name it after Lo Ben and use his principles. So it went through very quickly. Usually things like that take years. No one named it after Lowell and he didn't want his name on it. He never wanted his name on anything because that's his writing. And he finally had to go out of the room. Well, they decided to name it the LOL Hell Pigeon. And it just took off right away. The kids wanted to get involved. Now they have service learning teachers.

Stirling Adams [00:49:26] Now as in 2006, it's still operating.

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:49:28] Yeah, very good too. They branched out into all sorts of different parts of the state and overseas. And the kids think of what to do too. They have a group of students who found their own little community service plan. Going to schools, going to Indian reservations. Amazing.

Stirling Adams [00:49:56] Thank you. That mostly finishes the questions I had in mind. Let me ask. In reading the book, I had a sense of love that with the institute of the 50s and 60s and with the faculty that we've talked about and then the change that occurred in 62. It's as if there was a passing of an era in the institute system and perhaps in the church itself. What's your thought on that?

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:50:22] Yeah, I think it was probably because I lived through it that this free agency, kids doing things on their own. Now it's all cut and dried and they don't. I shouldn't criticize because I don't know what it's like now. But at the time that I was there, I thought to myself, this is a charmed time. I'd like to write about it. I thought about that when I was a student because I realized it wouldn't happen again just like that. So much enjoyment of learning and service together with the gospel just fit in with your daily life. It's never left me. And every time I have a crisis in my life, I think what would brighter Ben would. And of course, Ted Edgar Lyon was remarkable too. And I'm glad his book is out. His son did his book.

Stirling Adams [00:51:32] Ted Lyon wrote a biography of T. Edgar Lyon. Will, thank you very much for your time today.

Mary Lythgoe Bradford [00:51:40] Thank you. I love thinking about little Ben.