Welcome and Introduction to Mormon Transitions Live

John Dehlin [00:00:00] All right, I think we're ready to go. Hello, everyone, and welcome to our episode one of the Mormon Transitions Live podcast. The date is January 5th, 2017. My name is John Dehlin and I am joined by Margi, my sweet wife.

John Dehlin [00:00:58] We are so. And we're also joined by a panel of wonderful people. We'll be introducing them as the show kind of continues, but we're trying something very new here. But let me give a little bit of an introduction.

The Open Stories Foundation and Mission

John Dehlin [00:01:14] First of all, I want to kind of start talking about the organization that makes all this possible. This production today is brought to you by the Open Stories Foundation. You can find us@openstoriesfoundation.org Our mission is to promote understanding, healing, growth and community for people experiencing or impacted by religious transitions.

John Dehlin [00:01:40] So that's kind of what the Open Stories foundation is about. We provide all sorts of things. We're most known right now for our podcasts. We have several podcasts. Mormon Stories Podcast been around quite a long time. Mormon Matters podcast has been doing great things. A thoughtful faith podcast with Gina Colvin. Dan Witherspoon does Mormon Matters. And then of course, Mormon Transitions is going to be a new podcast that we're offering. We have some other podcasts like Gay Mormon Stories, Mormon Studies Podcast that we've offered in the past. Those still exist, but those are all under the Open Stories foundation umbrella.

John Dehlin [00:02:17] People donate to the Open Stories foundation, and that's what makes the nonprofit possible. And these programs, in addition to these podcasts, we've also been doing events. We'll be talking about those workshops and retreats. We want to provide other services. We want to help nurture community, etc. So that's what the Open Stories foundation is all about.

John Dehlin [00:02:40] And what's Mormon Transitions about? So think of Mormon Transitions as more than just a podcast. So the website is mormontransitions.org and Mormon transitions is going to seek to create and provide information to nurture relationships, to build community, and even to create culture. And all sorts of resources for progressive and post Mormons and people experiencing religious transition within a Mormon context.

John Dehlin [00:03:12] Now, how's that different from Mormon Stories, Mormon Matters, the thoughtful faith, etc. Well, first off, you know, Mormon Stories is sort of a format of long form interviews in depth on various topics. It can be about Transitions, but it can be about anything. It could be about Mormon history, about Mormon culture, about the church, all sorts of issues. And that's going to continue. Mormon Stories is not going away.

John Dehlin [00:03:41] Mormon Matters podcast and Dan can talk about this in a bit, but Mormon Matters podcast is Dan, who usually brings on panels and they talk about having a rich, fulfilling spiritual life as you are attending and actively engaged in LDS Church participation.

John Dehlin [00:04:02] Now Dan's got exciting plans for Mormon Matters that we'll have him talk about. But that's what Mormon Matters podcast has been about in the past. Now, Gina Colvin brought on a thoughtful faith very much aligned with the same theme of Mormon Matters. But Gina Colvin also, she kind of does one on one interviews and explores topics more in that format than in sort of a panel format. Now we'll have Gene on and Dan to talk more about that. But that's what those things have been about. What Mormon transitions about Mormon transition is about is it's first of all, it's going to be very practical. We are specifically concerned about how disruptive but challenging and exciting it can be for people to experience a religious transition within a Mormon context.

Why This Podcast Exists and Who It Serves

John Dehlin [00:04:52] So we think there's a need to target specifically that journey, that experience of finding out that the church maybe isn't what you thought it was. Maybe losing your faith in it, at least at first, dealing with the holes and the trauma and the loss and the shock of that experience, but then figuring out what to do. Do you stay in the church? Do you not stay in the church? How do you deal with your bishop? How do you deal with family, friends? How do you deal with your spouse and your children or your loved ones?

John Dehlin [00:05:24] There's all sorts of tips and tricks and ideas about how to go through that. How do you come out as an unorthodox or non believer? How do you deal with the members of your ward? How do you deal with family? How do you develop your own spirituality? How do you figure out morality? How do you fill all the holes that develop once your orthodox worldview sort of evaporates?

John Dehlin [00:05:48] And how do you raise kids and move forward and find a happy, healthy life of healing and growth and either staying in the church, but as a progressive liberal, even non believing or semi believing member, or how do you leave and go and find health and happiness if staying actively Mormon isn't something that can work for you? So it's very practical, it's very focused, it's very topical.

John Dehlin [00:06:15] The podcast is going to have at least sort of three different formats. We will be doing long, deep interviews with, with people about their transition. So we were excited to release at the end of December a 4 hour, 4 or 5 hour interview with my sweet wife Margi, where we asked her a series of about 50 questions, each one dealing with different phases of her transition. Part one was about her life as a believer in the church. Part two was about her transition. And then part three was, was about the life that she and we have built now.

John Dehlin [00:06:54] And that's going to be the format of these long in depth interviews. If over time we do 20 to 30 of these interviews with some really sharp, you know, sort of actualized mature people, we can put those on the Mormon Transitions website, we'll put them on YouTube. People can listen to the stories, they can watch them on YouTube, they can watch them on Facebook. But what we've done, that's a little bit different. There is we've chopped them up into 50 different small 5 to 10 minute segments. And we think that's valuable for two main reasons. Number one is some people are not going to want to watch four or five hour interviews, but they are interested in specific topics.

John Dehlin [00:07:36] How do I raise my kids in a transition? How do I develop spirituality in a transition? How do I deal with my bishopric during a transition? If I want to stay in the church as a non or semi believer, how do I do that? And by chopping these videos up, people can just go to the section of the Mormon Transitions website about raising kids or about spirituality or about staying in the church, or about leaving the church, or about coming out, and they can watch 20 or 30 different people talk about their experience with that specific topic. And when people are in a world of hurt about a specific topic, let's just say how to come out to your spouse or family and friends, hearing five or 10 or 20 people talk about how they did it, what went right, what went didn't right, go right can all be really helpful in their own journey.

John Dehlin [00:08:28] So that's sort of part one. These in depth interviews, also by chopping them up into small segments, we can share those little segments with other people. And instead of trying to share a four hour, five hour interview, we can say, hey friend, you're struggling with raising your kids or you're struggling with spirituality. Here's a little five or ten minute video that you could watch that could be really helpful. So we think that by chopping them up into little segments that can actually be useful to people. So that's in depth interviews. The second is this live call in show.

John Dehlin [00:08:57] So far, all the content that has been created sort of in Mormonism and even in religion is sort of asynchronous. Record the podcast, record the interview, share it, and then people listen. What we know is a proven model in the world is this sort of live call in show format. Whether it's Dr. Laura, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, I'm giving a lot of conservative examples. There are liberal ones as well.

John Dehlin [00:09:27] There's this cool format of like, you're in the middle of your day, you want to tune into something, you're working, you're driving whatever it is. Well, you can actually call in, you can engage in the conversation as it's happening. If you want to actually text or write to participate in the show, you can. And you can even call into the show and appear on the show and have a dialogue. So for those of you who are watching this right now, livestreamed, you'll see that there's a panel of people above us who have joined us for this call. So we've got myself, we've got Marco, Amy, Jeremy, Dan, and Shandy, and they're all joining us.

John Dehlin [00:10:06] And what we can do during these live call in shows is bring on guests to speak about special topics, but we can also bring in listeners to participate in the discussion. And instead of it being just theoretical, instead of it just being philosophical, instead of it just being one on one with an expert, it can be a discussion where people come on and say, hey, I'm struggling with my spouse, or I'm struggling with spirituality or morality or whatever it is. And we can actually have a discussion live. People can comment and chat real time.

John Dehlin [00:10:42] And we just think it's a fun format for us to explore and we think there's a lot of promise there and nobody's doing it. So I have no idea how many people are joining us right now on Facebook, but we hope you are joining us. We hope you are enjoying the live element of this. We invite you to make comments or suggestions on the live feed, even comment and discuss with each other. And we want to see how that participation actually plays into making some really interesting comments. This will be saved on Facebook under the Mormon Transitions page and people can go back and watch the live presentation as it happened and even see the comments that people made while the discussion was going happen real time.

John Dehlin [00:11:25] And I even think people can comment asynchronously after the program's over. And Facebook's gonna actually keep those comments as well. So this is like pioneering territory, I think we think in not only Mormonism, but in Facebook, in live discussions. We think this is interesting and we're curious to see how the live call in show format happens. What we would really like to invite you to do is if you really. What we're going to do is we're going to publish the schedule of topics ahead of time. So you'll be able to go to mormontransitions.org See, next week is going to be about kids or about spirituality.

John Dehlin [00:12:02] And if you want to appear on the show, call in. You can call in through audio and never actually reveal anything personal about yourself. Or you can come on to our video stream and actually participate with your voice and your face. You can engage in that conversation and ask questions, provide tips, etc. And be a part of the discussion. So that's the live call and show format. And then the third part of the podcast format will be just interviewing experts kind of in depth. So imagine us interviewing Dan Witherspoon on how to stay in the church, tips and tricks on staying at the church, or Gina Colvin as you're a member.

John Dehlin [00:12:44] We can talk about how to handle the temple recommend interview or how to handle interviews with the bishop where you can maintain your integrity but still, you know, not set off alarms that cause your bishop to yank your temple recommend and start a disciplinary council, you know, whatever the topic is, in depth. Topical discussions with experts. Imagine discussions with Natasha Alpha Parker about sexuality or healthy marriages or raising kids. Imagine us bringing on Noah Rashetta to talk about healthy spirituality, secular Buddhism, other mental health professionals, etc. So that's the podcast part of the Mormon Transitions Project.

John Dehlin [00:13:26] In addition, we have been holding events regularly across the United States and and outside. So if you go to mormontransitions.org events, we have put up a starter calendar of events that we will be Holding. Our first event in 2017 will be in Anaheim, California, sponsored Location Wise by Community of Christ, January 26th and 27th.

John Dehlin [00:13:54] You can go to mormontransition.org events. You can sign up for that event. These workshops and retreats are super highly rated. It's people coming who are struggling with issues. They make friends, they make community. We have experts come and talk. We process people's issues real time. We have fun, we sing karaoke, we eat.

Events, Workshops, and Community Building

John Dehlin [00:14:17] And everyone I know who's attended these workshops or retreats, pretty much everyone has said it's been a life changing experience where they made friends, built community, gotten suggestions, gotten tips, processed through difficult issues that have changed their lives for the better. On average, these Reviews are rated 4.9 out of 5 every single one we've had. And we invite you not only to consider joining us in Anaheim, California, but we will be having a workshop probably in Salt Lake City in February. And we're going to do our first 2017 three day retreat. And in Salt Lake city in March. So check@mormontransitions.org events for details on how to register.

John Dehlin [00:15:02] And you can always email us@mormontransitionsmail.com with any questions or concerns if you want to hold an event in your area. So you're in Atlanta, you're in Dallas, you're in Vegas, you're in, you know, Washington, D.C. if you want to host an event, you can email us@mormontransitionsmail.com and you can say, we want to host an event. And you can talk with Amy Grubbs and myself about how to plan that, how to organize it, and we'll make that happen.

John Dehlin [00:15:32] So that's the events portion of the Mormon Transitions Project. We also plan to put together. We're always getting requests for people who need mental health services or coaching, so we hope to put together a list of providers. So. So that if you need a marriage counselor, someone to talk to you about your mental health coaching, to deal with your religious transition, we can connect you up with those services. And then finally, we hope that all of this culminates in some sort of book. So imagine at the end of 2017, beginning of 2018, a book. Now, I have just been. I just realized I've been blabbing for like 17 minutes and I haven't even brought on my sweet co host.

John Dehlin [00:16:19] So.

John Dehlin [00:16:19] Margi, welcome to Mormon Transitions Live.

Margi Dehlin [00:16:24] Thanks, babe.

John Dehlin [00:16:24] How are you doing?

Margi Dehlin [00:16:25] Appreciate it. Doing well.

John Dehlin [00:16:27] Okay, so as I talk about all this sort of like, huge list of what we're doing, any thoughts or reactions?

Margi Dehlin [00:16:35] I'm super excited.

John Dehlin [00:16:36] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:16:37] Yeah, that's my reaction. Super excited.

John Dehlin [00:16:40] What is it that made you want to come on? And you're a really private person. This is not sort of what you normally do. And I think that interview is a huge step for you. Talk a bit about why you care, about why he would want to leave your security, your comfort, your privacy, and be involved in such a public thing where we're streaming to hopefully dozens, if not hundreds of people.

Margi Dehlin [00:17:06] He's turning all interview on me. So why would I want to? Because I really, I believe in it. And I think that this is super exciting territory. One of the things that I'm really excited about is this idea of community, for sure. Structure, for sure. This idea that you can go online and really look up by topic the things that you are sort of struggling with or curious about. But also I really love the idea of what happens when we open up a topic and people can actually call in. And it's very collaborative. And I view Us more as, like, facilitators than anything in this kind of setting.

Margi Dehlin [00:17:46] And I just think beautiful things happen when you have a lot of people coming together and sharing, hey, this works. This worked for me. This really didn't. What do we think about this? You know, so. Yes. And I think it's important to be brave. So just trying to be brave.

John Dehlin [00:18:04] You are brave. Okay, so we put together a little list of why we're not doing this and why we are doing this in terms of the Mormon Transitions Project overall and the podcast specifically. Do you want to talk a bit about why we're not doing this? Can you see our notes?

Goals, Motivations, and Real Challenges of Transition

Margi Dehlin [00:18:22] Sure, honey. Why we're not doing this. So clearly we're not doing it because we want to be gurus. Talk about that, to create gurus. I just feel like we're all on a journey together. I'm definitely not here because I think I have answers other people don't. What I am really hoping is I feel like we have experiences and we can share what has been relevant in our journey, but what is going to be huge is for other people to do the same.

John Dehlin [00:18:53] So we're facilitators of a conversation. We're not experts and gurus by any stretch.

Margi Dehlin [00:19:01] True.

John Dehlin [00:19:01] Is that right?

Margi Dehlin [00:19:02] True that.

John Dehlin [00:19:03] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:19:03] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:19:03] All right. In addition, what I wrote. We're not here to create new scripture and a new church. We don't think the world needs more churches. We're not even here to bash existing churches. We want people who attend church or don't attend church to feel healthy and happy and welcome here. But this isn't about the church model, and it's not about telling everyone what the truth is and giving people a new set of rules and guidelines and standards. We just want to. We want to have a conversation that pulls together the best insight, the best wisdom, and the best learning to let people govern their own lives.

Margi Dehlin [00:19:44] True.

John Dehlin [00:19:45] That sound fair?

Margi Dehlin [00:19:46] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:19:47] Okay. So we've talked a lot about what we are trying to do. I mean, if we want to really bring it to the practical level. Marriages are often threatened when there's a faith crisis. Relationships with parents, with grandparents, with spouses, with siblings, with children with close friendships. All those relationships can be sometimes jeopardized, strained, and even destroyed through a religious faith crisis, through a Mormon religious transition. And so it's important for us, you know, I think, number one, that is our main goal. We want to make it so less divorces happen that shouldn't happen. Less families are torn apart, less relationships are ruptured, that less friendships are ruptured, et cetera.

John Dehlin [00:20:39] But in addition, let's just say that sometimes someone listens to Mormon stories or reads rough stone rolling or goes to church or reads the Book of Mormon or gets on the Internet and all of a sudden they don't believe like they did anymore.

John Dehlin [00:20:53] What we realized is it's kind of just irresponsible for us to go, well, we were a part of you losing all your faith and your world unraveling. Good luck. Enjoy your life now that everything's falling apart and you're in the depths of despair and all your relationships are crumbling. See ya. Thanks for the donation.

John Dehlin [00:21:14] So what this is kind of about is saying it's also responsible for us if we're going to realize that that transition is going to happen. To provide resources to help people heal, heal from the traumas and the disruptions of what they're experiencing and then grow growth, spiritual growth, intellectual growth, emotional growth, relationship growth, community growth, whatever it is. We want progressive Mormons who want to stay in the church to thrive. And that's what Dan is going to help focus on. And Gina.

John Dehlin [00:21:47] And for people who can't make sure church participation work, we want thriving outside of an active LDS church context. We support thriving, healing and growth in both scenarios. True.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:01] Yeah. Super important.

Friendship and Community After Leaving the Church

John Dehlin [00:22:03] Margi, talk a bit about the challenges of finding friendships and community after transition and how this plays into that. Any ideas? I'm putting you on the spot.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:18] Well, I think the challenges are clearly very real as you are losing. I think you lose relationships on the spot and over time I think it's surprising and oftentimes can cause a lot of trauma. And I think it makes you more tentative then from that point onward, like who's safe, who's not, what you tell when and, you know, deciding when to filter. I think it's very, very destabilizing. I hope what this does is not only provides tips, but also provides a community of sort of outreach of people that, you know, that you can be honest and feel safe and feel kind of a secure connection here in this space.

John Dehlin [00:23:07] Beautiful. The last thing I just thought about really quick is we're not just about alleviating suffering and promoting growth. We're not just about building relationships, forging new relationships and community. I think we're creating culture here. And I don't just mean in Mormon transitions, and I don't just mean in the Open Stories foundation, whether it's the ex Mormon Reddit, whether it's, you know, by Common Consent blog, whether it's Sunstone, whether it's you know, a thoughtful faith Facebook support group or a podcast. We're really creating. We're using words, we're creating memes and ideas, we're sharing in experiences, we're providing each other with support and tips and tricks.

John Dehlin [00:23:58] And what that's really doing is creating a culture. And just like orthodox lds, church activity has a culture that we love. We love green jello. You know, maybe some of us, we love the hymns, we love attending activities, those of us who do or can.

John Dehlin [00:24:17] But that has a culture. And that culture works for the people who it works for. But there's a bunch of people that aren't able to be that sort of orthodox, enjoy the orthodox culture and think and speak and commune with others within that culture in a seamless way. So what we're doing is we're creating culture. We're creating, you know, Orthodox Judaism spun off unorthodox Judaism, Reformed Judaism, etc. Spinning off other cultural derivatives of that host culture, and I think the progressive and post Mormon Internet, creating a culture that is going to be about more than just complaining about the church or leaving religion, but it's about how do we all relate to each other, how do we share a common set of ideas and words and language and experiences that can nurture us as individuals and in a community. Now, why are you nodding?

Margi Dehlin [00:25:18] I love that you like that resonating. This is resonating.

John Dehlin [00:25:21] That's your nodding is resonating.

Guest 2 [00:25:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:23] Okay, I see some other people. Are you guys on the call? I see some of you nodding or smiling. Dan's smiling, Shandy's smiling. Got some thumbs up. We'll bring Jeremy, we're bringing Marco. We'll bring you guys on in just a second. Amy, how you doing? Thumbs up. All right. All right. So Amy's good. So that's what we're doing now to begin, just a little bit of the content for today's show. We're about 30 minutes in. Normally, we won't spend so much of the show today talking about what the show's gonna be. But we feel like for the first episode, it was important to kind of lay out the vision so that people can understand what this is and engage accordingly.

Introducing the Hosts: Margi and John

John Dehlin [00:25:59] But let's just do a quick little introduction. Margi, if people want to actually watch your four to five hour interview on Mormon transitions, and we also shared on Mormon stories, you can. But Margi, just tell a little bit about yourself and maybe a few, maybe a few things you don't know, our listeners don't know about you just by Way of introduction.

Margi Dehlin [00:26:21] Okay. So he asked me to like have a few things that are just sort of random things about me that people probably wouldn't know. So I made them really random. But here are a few things about me people might not want to, might not know. So the first thing is my eighth grade year, we moved to Florida. Florida. And my family actually lived in a mental hospital for several months during that year.

John Dehlin [00:26:47] And because your dad was a psychiatrist.

Margi Dehlin [00:26:49] Yes, so my dad actually was hired and worked in that hospital. We had a closed off wing and we lived in a hospital. So that's always like a fun thing at parties. Like what? You wouldn't guess. So that's the first thing about me. Kind of random. The second thing would be. Oh my. So for the new year, instead of like goals, I'm not a big goal person, but I like to pick like a centering word or something for the year.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:18] And my word this year is create. So that's part of what I'm doing here. Just every day. It can be whatever form a meal, it can be writing, it can be an interview, it can be, you know, an environment, changing up a room or. But creating as sort of something that I'm looking to do more of in the coming year. So that's another thing. And then the third thing that is just light and fun is that I love smell. Like if there is just a sense that I really, I don't know what it is, but I'm a total smell person. So in every way. So that would go with food.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:01] I love candles, I love incense, I love, you know, fragrance or. And I'm trying, I have a diffuser where I put in like oils or whatever, you know, seriously. But I'm a total smell person. So there you go. Three things you didn't know. Did you want me to like legitimately tell things about me or Will?

John Dehlin [00:28:19] That was great.

John Dehlin [00:28:20] That was great.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:21] Okay, great.

Jeremy MacDonald [00:28:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:22] Talk. Just give. If you were to like tell someone for 30 seconds or a minute just a bit about your demographic information, just like what you do right now, who's

Margi Dehlin [00:28:35] in your life, My demographic information.

John Dehlin [00:28:38] Okay, you're. So you're married.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:42] I'm married. I'm married. I have four children, two of which are outside the home and I have, living in my house, a 15 year old and a 12 year old. So 15 year old girl, 12 year old boy. Tell more about like what?

John Dehlin [00:28:59] We have a cat.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:00] We have a cat named Roomie, A female cat named Roomie. We named him after a male sort of poet and philosopher.

John Dehlin [00:29:08] What do you do for a living.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:11] I really. I'm gonna say, like, I enjoy actually making a home and everything that has to do with that. I take that really seriously. That's like the art of my life. But I've been caretaking for a lot of my life up until recently with my dad sharing in that. And also we do quite a bit of coaching. We've coached together. I do some of the workshops. I've done a couple of things.

John Dehlin [00:29:37] What do you mean?

Margi Dehlin [00:29:38] Mostly around transitioning. That's more of the things that we've done. So marital, sort of. Some of the. Helping with tips on marital stress during

John Dehlin [00:29:48] transitioning, but raising kids, healthy marriages.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:53] Yeah, in that realm. Writing. I've done some writing and I've really enjoyed that. Worked it as an editor short term with my sister at different times. So those are some of the jobs that I've had.

John Dehlin [00:30:06] But you. But your main thing in life is what?

Margi Dehlin [00:30:10] Yeah, so my main thing, it's interesting. Like, I. The way I mother and the way I take care of home really is sort of of my art. And I mean that in, like, my most sincere way, though I am now, as my kids grow up, I'm doing this weird thing where I'm planting roots down. I really get that time goes by just like everyone always said it would, that they grow up. And so I'm doing this thing where I really want to be here for them in their time and space when they're here. But I'm also trying to grow myself as they leave the nest to have really my. I have my own interests. I definitely have things that I love to do on my own. But to grow this side. This side of sort of giving back and doing things that enrich my life and hopefully, you know, help other people, too.

John Dehlin [00:31:03] One final thing you have to know about Margi is she's a reader. How many books, on average, do you think you read a week? You think you read a book a week? Sometimes 2 or 3. Am I embarrassing you?

Guest 2 [00:31:13] I don't know.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:14] I'd probably say to. Probably a couple books a week.

John Dehlin [00:31:19] She's been doing that for her whole life. And so those of you who saw her interview and noticed the depth of wisdom, it's because she's just always engaging in the life of the mind.

Amy [00:31:29] All right.

John Dehlin [00:31:30] Thank you for introducing yourself. I'm John Dehlin. I'm 47. I'm married. We've been married 23 years. We just had our anniversary. We have four children.

Jeremy MacDonald [00:31:41] I.

John Dehlin [00:31:41] In my prior life, I was a technology person. I worked for Microsoft. I worked for the Massachusetts Institute of Technology or mit. I did programming, I did corporate technology, evangelism, marketing, business management stuff. And around 2004 I left that entire world, moved to Logan, Utah and went back to graduate school, got a master's in instructional technology, learned about podcasting, started that podcast and then realized very quickly that there were so many people in need of support in their Mormon transitions that I went back to school, got a Master's and a PhD in psychology. And now I'm a PhD in clinical and counseling psychology.

John Dehlin [00:32:30] Mormon Stories is my thing. I'm the Executive director of the Open Stories foundation and Mormon transitions is kind of our new thing. And I love chess. I love playing chess on chess.com I love hanging out with my kids and something interesting about me. I have no idea what's interesting about me.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:53] Maybe just a couple things people wouldn't guess or know about you.

John Dehlin [00:32:57] I grew up in Katy, Texas, which is a suburb near Houston. My secret dream is to.

John Dehlin [00:33:04] Is to.

John Dehlin [00:33:05] I don't know, I don't know, I don't know about me. I love movies. I really love movies. Movies are sort of like a important form of spirituality for me. I watched, okay Maya, my daughter Maya was about to leave to go back to New Jersey. She's a nanny and as a going away evening we set up a big screen in my basement up against that wall in my basement right over there, big, big projector with hi fi audio and we watched A River Runs through it together as a daddy daughter configuration. Because movies are like spirituality to me. So that's something about me. My favorite movie of all time is a movie called A Man for All Seasons, which is about Sir Thomas More getting pressure from King Arthur to compromise his Not King Arthur, King Henry viii.

John Dehlin [00:33:59] Getting pressure from King Henry VIII to compromise his integrity and how he stood for truth and justice in spite of the pressure. So that's a little bit about me. Is that enough? And I love chess. If any of you want to play me on chess.com, i'm okay. I'm not great, but I'd love to play.

John Dehlin [00:34:15] Alright. Okay, so let me just tell you how the format of the show is normally going to work. So we'll always start out, we'll have a topic. Each show is going to have a topic. The topics will be announced in advance. We invite you to email us or leave voicemails so you can go to mormontransitions.org There's a little thing in the bottom right hand scrolling area where you can leave a Voicemail. You can ask a question to us, you can share an experience. We will record those and then we'll share them online so people can actually hear your questions live. We're excited about that, but you can also email us and we'll read your questions or topics.

Show Format and Exciting Announcements

John Dehlin [00:34:57] You will help shape the topics that we cover in this show. So we'll start each episode with an announcement about what's going on. Maybe we'll refer to a past show. If there's something that we need to resolve. We'll introduce the topic. Margi will join me for many of the shows. It may be that there are other co hosts or people.

John Dehlin [00:35:22] We'll introduce a topic, we'll discuss it for a bit. We'll bring on an expert if the expert is joining us. And then hopefully at least the last half of the show will be a live audience participating, calling in through their phone, joining us through video, or texting us on the live Facebook feed and having a discussion about the topic. And then we'll save that to Facebook so people can watch it later. We'll share it as a podcast in the audio. We'll also post it to YouTube so people can consume that discussion long after it's been recorded. And that will be. It'll be about an hour long.

John Dehlin [00:36:07] And then we'll do it. We'll do it at least weekly. If for some reason we feel like there's something really cool, we could do it more than weekly. And that's kind of what's going on. So now we're going to switch to the active participation portion. And what we did for this episode is invite some of our special friends to join us. And so what I'm going to begin is, I'm going to begin by introducing Amy Grubbs. Amy Grubbs is.

John Dehlin [00:36:36] I'm so excited to announce that Amy Grubbs joined us as the first full time employee of the Open Stories Foundation. Aside from myself, she's joining us as the Director of operations or the Chief Operations officer. And Amy, you can go ahead and unmute yourself and I am going to ask you to talk to us a bit, maybe introduce yourself. So where for some reason, I just lost Amy.

John Dehlin [00:37:06] Amy, for some reason, I don't know if I kicked you out, but if I did, please rejoin us because I was just about to turn the mic over to Amy while. Okay, Amy's back on. I'll unmute her. Amy, can you hear or see us? Amy? All right. Dan, can you unmute yourself for just a second? Dan Witherspoon. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:37:32] There.

Jeremy MacDonald [00:37:32] I did.

John Dehlin [00:37:33] Okay. Dan, are you there? Yes. All right. While we're waiting for Amy to get back in, I don't know what happened. I would like you to introduce yourself briefly and give your reaction to what you heard just now and. And talk about what role you might want to play in this or elsewise. So go ahead and introduce yourself really briefly.

Guest 3 [00:37:53] Well, thanks so much. I am really excited to be part of the Open Stories Foundation. It has really become something, and with Amy coming on board and you being full time, it's just we're going to do some great things together. So, as John kind of let go a few times here today, I'm probably in that in the camp of folks who might find this podcast and these different things of somebody who kind of made it through a pretty long and intense faith crisis and managed to kind of find peace again within mormonism.

Team Members Share Their Transition Stories

Guest 3 [00:38:29] Back in 1989, I was studying religion in a master's program, and I really had to finally turn some real questions over to my own religion. And it was really a struggle to have, you know, just different things that you sort of assume come crashing.

Guest 3 [00:38:45] But luckily I found Sunstone in Dialogue. I found a wonderful mentor and a person who's been on my show a few times named Randy Paul. He was just somebody who felt like, you know, he. He found a spirituality. He found a secret out there along with Gene England and Armand Moss and these. These people I would read and encounter through various ways, and they just seem to sort of find a secret that kind of served as a, you know, a North Star or something for me. But, man, you still have to do the work yourself. You have to really take that time to reorgan you, orient towards your religion, towards God, towards everything like that.

Guest 3 [00:39:20] Luckily, about 1997, I found James Fowler. I actually sat next to him on a plane, and from our conversation, that just got me into a really big dive on faith transitions. And so not only his book Stages on Faith, but another half a dozen things was just a two or three year period. And so I kind of emerged from all this around the year 2000 and right after that, when I was kind of ready sort of be able to do Mormonism on my own terms, they hired me as the editor of Sunstone. And so so I led Sunstone for eight years and then worked for another nonprofit for a while. And then in 2011, he invited me to take over Mormon Matters. And it's been a great six years doing that.

John Dehlin [00:39:59] Beautiful, Dan. Well, thanks for that introduction. How do you see your role and the Listeners are saying that they can't quite hear you. So I don't know if there's a way for you to speak louder there.

Guest 3 [00:40:15] I'm going regardless.

John Dehlin [00:40:17] Is there a way? So try to talk a little bit louder. What I wanted to ask you is how do you see your role sort of being in this project? Do you have a vision for what role you might play here or elsewhere in your own podcast?

John Dehlin [00:40:34] Talk about that.

Guest 3 [00:40:35] Yeah, well, hopefully this is louder. I'm really happy to come on whenever you ask me to be part of this. I know that, you know, my particular pathway won't be the one that everyone will choose and that's just fine. You know, sometimes it's just temperament. You know, I was a philosophy major so I was used to having truth be all confusing and things like that. And I was, I was, it kind of enjoyed sort of holding things in tension. And so I sort of had that ability to kind of, you know, take my time, I think when it came to Mormonism that way. But for whatever reason, I'm happy to help with you whether Gina Colvin and I do something similar.

Guest 3 [00:41:14] If you're going to interview 20 or 30 people and do the segments like you did with Margi and Margi, that was wonderful. I really, I loved getting to know you through that and so I hope everyone will do that. But whether Gina and I do something separately or as part of this, that's yet to be determined. But I love the format. I love the idea of creating books and things out of just the best thinking from wonderful people as well as. I don't know if you mentioned it, at least you did to me when you introduced this, that there'll be a blog and things like this and we're gonna actually encourage people to weigh in their own experiences on all those different, different questions too.

Guest 3 [00:41:50] And perhaps they'll even become part of a book or a compilation or something there. So I'm excited for that. Mormon Matters itself. We're going to continue with mostly panel discussions. I've got a couple of. I've kind of started to decide to do a few more in depth one on one interviews. So I'm going to give myself permission to vary from the panel format. I've got a group of people together, we're brainstorming a series that I want to call 5 Insights. And it' going to be like 5 Insights from various fields of study that help people remain Mormon. So for instance, you know, five insights from the study of religion that helped me be Mormon.

Guest 3 [00:42:29] Five insights from the study of Literature that help people be Mormon, from sociology, psychology. And so about once a month we're going to be doing those kinds of things too. I am personally also writing a book. I'm trying to dedicate three hours every morning now when I'm not shoveling snow like I was today. But I'm trying to dedicate about three hours to finish a book called Showing Up, Speaking Up. And it's basically how to kind of do Mormonism as your authentic self, hopefully, and, you know, live with the tension that you'll be with so much in your community, but hopefully be grounded in ways that.

Guest 3 [00:43:09] That will, you know, allow you to enjoy it the way that I've come to come to enjoy. I really. I'd rather just be with those people on Sunday than almost anything else, even though we don't think alike. But. But I love their hearts and that, you know, it blesses me to be part of them.

Marco [00:43:25] So.

Guest 3 [00:43:26] So I'm writing a book and it'll be a little bit like what you're. What you're doing here. Very practical stuff.

John Dehlin [00:43:31] All right, Dan, thank you.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:34] Too long?

John Dehlin [00:43:35] No, that's great. That's great. Marco, I just noticed that you're having to jump off, introduce yourself super briefly and just tell us one thing you're excited about and make sure to unmute yourself.

Marco [00:43:47] Yeah, you bet. Thank you. Thank you for that. Great intro too. So my name is Marco Perez, or Marco Perez, depending on how you know me. But I'm really excited for this because. So I've been married for about eight years.

John Dehlin [00:44:02] We have a wonderful little four year

Marco [00:44:03] old girl who I'm deeply in love with. And through my transition, it was very difficult at first. My wife is awesome. We're working through things. I think both our minds are being opened in very positive ways. But that first crux was very difficult, very hard. Especially as some perhaps toxic things happened in the beginning due to cultures in different places inside and outside of Mormonism. And so having this place of reference would have been amazing.

Jeremy MacDonald [00:44:37] And so I'm really looking forward to it.

Marco [00:44:39] And that's about it.

John Dehlin [00:44:40] Brilliant. And you may help us with editing a little bit. Absolutely, yeah. All right, well, we're really grateful you joined us for this first kickoff episode, Marco. We're grateful to have your insight. We look forward to having you join us in the future.

Marco [00:44:55] Awesome. Thanks so much, you guys. Take care.

John Dehlin [00:44:57] Run to your meeting. All right, bye. All right, Amy, should we try this again?

Amy [00:45:05] Yes. Of all the times for my Internet to freeze up, I apologize.

John Dehlin [00:45:10] No problem.

John Dehlin [00:45:11] So tell it. Tell us A bit about yourself. What, what role, kind of what you're excited about for this project and maybe what role you see yourself playing.

Amy [00:45:20] Okay, I'm a slightly prejudice. I'm excited about it. All the two things that I'm most excited about are the episodes that you're asking all the questions and chopping them up into different segments. I think I can agree with everybody, especially all the people who are leaving comments that they loved Margi's first interview and it was fantastic. I also think that as you go through a transition, there's so many different layers and different times that you go through where you need different things and you might think that you're done with a transition, but then something will happen and you'll kind of backtrack. And so I think that's so needed.

Amy [00:45:56] I've been involved in several of the events that you hosted last year and those think are so amazing in helping build community and helping people really work through certain aspects of a transition. And so those are probably the two things I'm most excited about. But love it all.

John Dehlin [00:46:14] Excellent. What.

Marco [00:46:16] How.

John Dehlin [00:46:17] Do you. Do you have any. I guess you'll be helping us produce it, right?

Amy [00:46:21] Yes, yes. Very excited for that. I think it'll be really fun. This new format, I think, is going to be fantastic. So I'm very excited to be a part of it.

John Dehlin [00:46:29] All right, well, thanks for. Thanks for joining us, Amy. It's great to have you.

Amy [00:46:33] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:46:34] All right, who else we got? Jeremy, why don't we bring you on really quick? Jeremy, just tell us a bit about yourself. Maybe talk about what you heard today. That's a little bit exciting. And maybe a little bit about how you've been helping out the osf if you want.

Jeremy MacDonald [00:46:52] Absolutely. I hope everyone can hear me. Well, I'm Jeremy MacDonald. I'm most recently from American Fork, Utah. Originally, I'm from Mesa, Arizona, and I moved here from California about a year and a half ago with my wife and kids.

Jeremy MacDonald [00:47:07] Just a bit about me. I'm a building nerd. I studied architecture. I love buildings, but I'm most interested in how people take space and make it their own. So I'm happy to converse with you someday, Margi, about how you do the art of homemaking. That sounded really interesting to me.

Jeremy MacDonald [00:47:22] I've been trying to help out where I can with the Mormon transitions and with Open Stories Foundation. I transitioned into the Mormon Church when I was nine with my mom and sister and the transition out was a lot bumpier.

Jeremy MacDonald [00:47:37] I'm really excited about everything you've described. And my role up until this point has just been a volunteer to support the efforts that. I think you're doing great work, John, and everyone's benefiting from it, and those that are contributing are going to make it. You know, they get to the next level. I know that.

Jeremy MacDonald [00:47:54] I'll put one plug in. I'm also a donor to the Open Stories foundation, and that doesn't come up very much, but I would encourage everyone to be a donor as well. And most recently, I accepted the opportunity to help serve on the board for Open Stories foundation as the secretary. So I'm thrilled to interview even more.

John Dehlin [00:48:14] All right, Jeremy. Well, we've. Your contributions have been invaluable the past several months, and your friendship has meant a lot. So thank you so much for joining us today. Thanks for all your help, and we really look forward to engaging with you in the future.

John Dehlin [00:48:31] So thanks.

Jeremy MacDonald [00:48:33] Can I offer one silly anecdote?

John Dehlin [00:48:35] Please.

Jeremy MacDonald [00:48:36] Growing up in Arizona, we had to deal with an awful lot of scorpions, and I got to the point where I just killed him bare handed.

John Dehlin [00:48:47] We need to interpret.

Jeremy MacDonald [00:48:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:50] Is that. Do you want to interpret that metaphor for us?

Jeremy MacDonald [00:48:54] It's. It's actually just literal. It took too long to find a shoe, and you're always terrified, those that are scared of insects, that the second you turn your head to go and find that, you know, shoe, the bug's gonna disappear. So it just got to the point where we took care of it.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:10] So what's the strategy?

Jeremy MacDonald [00:49:13] Swallow all of your fear and shut your eyes? No. Make a hard fist and go for it.

John Dehlin [00:49:20] Wow.

Jeremy MacDonald [00:49:21] Take more of a risk than you need to.

John Dehlin [00:49:26] All right, that was great. Thanks, Jeremy. I appreciate that. Giving us something to ponder. All right, Shandy, why don't we bring you on?

John Dehlin [00:49:36] Shandy.

Guest 2 [00:49:38] Hello.

John Dehlin [00:49:40] Tell us a tiny bit about yourself.

Guest 2 [00:49:43] So, I'm Shandi. Hopefully everybody can hear me. I started my faith transition about a year ago, live in North Utah county and have two kids and love osf. Super excited for this project.

John Dehlin [00:50:02] Well, we're excited to have you. You're a moderator, right? On Facebook?

Guest 2 [00:50:09] Yep. So I am a mod over at Thoughtful Transitions. It's a smallish but getting bigger group of people who have transitioned out, and it's really neat. So anybody listening? If you're interested, check us out and talk to one of us mods.

John Dehlin [00:50:29] Plug Thoughtful Transitions is the name, right?

Guest 2 [00:50:33] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:50:34] All right, thanks for doing that. It's important work. Anything else you heard that particularly resonated with you about this Mormon transitions plan?

Guest 2 [00:50:43] I'm just really excited I'm just excited for it to be a bigger tool for people who are actively going through their transitions. I think it's going to be invaluable.

John Dehlin [00:51:01] Beautiful. All right, good. Well, say hi to Jeremy. Wait, your husband?

Guest 2 [00:51:10] Jordan.

John Dehlin [00:51:11] Jordan. That's what I meant. Sorry I messed up with names sometimes.

Guest 2 [00:51:14] He's my shmoopy.

John Dehlin [00:51:16] Shmoopy. Say hi to your shmoopy for us.

Guest 2 [00:51:19] I will.

John Dehlin [00:51:20] Jordan. We're gonna have Jordan on Mormon Stories soon, by the way. I'm excited about that. All right, Sandy, it's great to have you on the show. Thank you so much for joining us. Okay, so that was fun. We're getting a little feedback from our listeners that it's hard for them to hear some of our participants. I think this is a brand new technology platform that we're using, so we're gonna have to learn about that. So please accept our apologies if it's hard to hear and know that we are going to fix that very soon. In fact, after this show's over, we'll end in just a few minutes.

Live Audience Questions and Listener Interaction

John Dehlin [00:52:05] And what I'd like some listeners to do is stay on. I'm gonna make some play with our settings a little bit and tweak them and see if we can make sure the audio is better. I will need some of our video participants to stay on so that we can test the audio with them. So at a minimum, Amy or Dan or Jeremy, whoever, Shandy, one of you, please join us if you can.

John Dehlin [00:52:28] So thanks for that feedback. All right, so really quick, I'm gonna open it up to the listeners now. I think I can see Facebook Live and what I'd like to do, invite listeners to ask any comments or questions that they have, and we want to answer it, and we want to see if we can actually find a way to process your questions live. So right now, if you're viewing this episode through the video live on Facebook, I want to just ask any listeners to either post a comment or a question, and I at least want to share one or two so that we can test this interaction.

John Dehlin [00:53:19] So right now I'm watching the comments, and is there anybody who wants to make a comment or a question that we will read? And I'm watching, so. And we know that there's 64 people right now who are tuning in live on Facebook.

John Dehlin [00:53:38] So does anybody who's listening. I won't share your name, your last name, or in any way. So the first comment that we have is from your brother Tim.

Guest 2 [00:53:50] Really?

John Dehlin [00:53:51] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:53:53] And Tim Weber from Logan asks what Is your favorite color blue or green?

Margi Dehlin [00:54:01] Yeah, it would totally be green.

John Dehlin [00:54:05] Actually, that's a Monty Python reference. And if I were to say it in the accent of it's what is your favorite color blue? No, greed. And then King Arthur gets or someone gets launched off into the gorge of eternal peril. Anyway, that was a Monty Python reference. I'm going to give that a thumbs up. Tim Weber from North Logan, Utah, thank you for joining us. Seth Lamb writes, longtime listener, first time caller. Thanks for all your work. Thank you, Seth. Thumbs up. It's great to have you with us. Sarah Spencer writes what books are you currently reading? Margi, that's a great question. I'm gonna give it a thumbs up. Thanks for the question, Sarah. Margi, what are you reading?

Margi Dehlin [00:54:50] So I have a couple books going right now. Right now I have a mystery book that was recommended to me and it's by P.D. james. It's her first mystery book. I guess she's kind of a classic mystery writer. And I think it's called Cover Her Face. And then I always have a nonfiction book. I have Shefali Sabery's book I'm working through on my Bedstand and I think it's like the Aware Family or the something like that. It's her latest book and I'm, I'm almost done three quarters of the way through with that. So those are the two for me.

John Dehlin [00:55:30] And you didn't ask me, Sarah, but I'll say that I am. There's a book by Alain de Bouton called the Course of Love. I think it's called so good, amazing book about healthy marriages, healthy relationships. Margi and I meditate for 10 minutes every morning and then I read from that book for about 10 minutes and it's amazing, super powerful. So check that book out if you want a really good book on healthy marriages. Darla Gardner from Florida, she writes. Love you guys. Thank you, Darla, for checking in. Megan Baer Miller asks what our favorite cereal is with a blush smiley face. Do you have a favorite cereal? This is a silly question, but know that in the future we'll have more in depth serious ones.

Margi Dehlin [00:56:21] To be honest, I'm not a huge cereal fan, but if I were to choose a cereal, it would probably be like the Great Grains cereal. It has like dates and but I don't have a lot of cereal, to be honest with you.

John Dehlin [00:56:37] I had spoon sized Shredded Wheat this morning with frosted mini wheats, something like that with bananas. All right.

Guest 3 [00:56:45] Honey Bunches of Oats is the only one. And true Cereal.

John Dehlin [00:56:48] Oh, Dan. Dan's weighed in.

Margi Dehlin [00:56:50] People love that cereal.

John Dehlin [00:56:52] The chubby guy, you know, loves the sugar shandy. Jeremy or Amy, do you have any favorite cereals? Favorite cereals? Anyone want to weigh in? Make sure to unmute yourself. Anyone? Fruity Pebbles, Life? Fruity Pebbles. Amy?

Amy [00:57:08] I'm kind of like Margi. I'm not a cereal person, but I love oatmeal, so I usually eat oatmeal. I don't know if that's considered cereal or not, but there you go.

Who the Podcast Is For and Book Recommendations

Jeremy MacDonald [00:57:19] There was a great question from Liesel that hasn't come up in your feed yet. I hope I said that right. Is this for people who are transitioning out of the Mormon religion?

John Dehlin [00:57:30] Okay, great question. The answer is this is for anyone. This program, Mormon Transitions Podcast. The project is for anyone who was once orthodox lds, traditional believer who now is trying to navigate the waters of being unorthodox, and that could be unorthodox, but retaining an active, participatory, even semi believing or fully believing membership in the LDS Church, or trying to figure out what you want to do with your participation in the LDS Church, or if you've decided you need to leave the LDS Church, it's for you as well. So that's a great question. And the answer is it's for everyone who's in that space of either figuring it out, trying to engage as a liberal, progressive member, unorthodox member, or who are leaving.

John Dehlin [00:58:25] Because there's so much that spans that, whether it's personal spirituality, raising children, developing your own sense of morality, a sense of mission and purpose. As soon as the orthodox filter drops from your worldview, all of a sudden you have to kind of rebuild almost, sometimes almost everything. That would be my answer. Do you want to jump in?

Margi Dehlin [00:58:50] No, I think you covered it really well.

John Dehlin [00:58:53] Okay, so thank you, Lyzel, for that question. Let us know if we pronounced it wrong. Patricia asks, how often will you be doing these live sessions? We plan to do them at least once a week and look for the schedule of what the topics are and when they'll be. That's a great question. Currently, the plan is to do these live sessions Tuesday mornings, mountain time at 10am so write that on your calendar. Tuesday mornings, 10am if you want to join us live. If that schedule changes, we will. We will let you know. Steve Holbrook asked, Margi, what were a few books you found most useful for regaining your inner peace, assuming you have inner peace?

Margi Dehlin [00:59:44] Well, what are some books that I would say, let's see, I believe there's actually a book by Thich Nhat Hanh about finding true peace. And I remember really feeling quite calmed as I read through that book, the Conscious Parent. Even for a non parent, I feel like it made me aware of myself in a new way that allowed for me to feel empowered and curious again. Meditation, I know it's not a book, but for peace, that's one of the biggest tools that have been that has been really helpful.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:30] Boy, we actually want to do a whole kind of episode on sort of books because there are so many books that I feel like at different parts again of my transition added a piece that was really important, like Wild the book Wild for me. Cheryl Strayed.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:50] I really loved the idea of her suffering this trauma in the beginning of the book and then really doing something physically demanding of herself and giving her this space to sort of have this journey inside herself as she was doing something physically demanding. So those are some just sort of ones that came off. Oh, Magical Journey by Katrina Kennison. It's her memoir about kind of coming to herself again and trying to find contentment amidst sort of the challenge of daily life. So those are a few. But Steve, I'll give it even more thought and maybe message you directly.

John Dehlin [01:01:36] Thank you. We found Eckhart Tolle's A New Earth to be extremely powerful. When we first started going through our transition, Tolle is T o L L Eckhart Tolle. His interviews with Oprah, where he discusses each chapter of his book were incredibly powerful us at the time. You can google those and find them. Just do Oprah. Eckhart Tolle, A New Earth. Those are absolutely worth their weight. Digital weight in gold. The Power of Now has some important concepts. I'm a huge fan of Noah Rashetta's book, podcast and book called Secular Buddhism. Please consider checking that out. We love the minimalist podcast. We think that's got a lot of really important concepts for grounding.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:24] They have a few books, I believe as well.

John Dehlin [01:02:27] They have some books as well.

Guest 2 [01:02:28] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:02:29] Yeah, those are. Those have been really helpful for us. Dan, do you have a quick answer to about spirituality or.

Guest 3 [01:02:37] Well, if I was going to recommend like that Krista Tippett's podcast that began as Speaking of faith and it's now on being. Those were my companions, you know, for so many years there just to see people from every religion because face it, there's conservative elements of every religion. There's fundamentalism in every religion. And just to see these people who you just, I just became to admire them and to say, wow, how Could I ever, you know, have that depth of grounding that I can look at the crap, I can look at all the ugly things and still sort of maintain that orientation. So just listening to that, and then she has three terrific books herself. So I'll leave it at that for now.

John Dehlin [01:03:19] Beautiful. I just heard from Jeralee and Lisa that the audio and the video are not matching, that there's a lag. We are going to figure out the audio problem, but we note it and thank you for the feedback. That's how we're going to get this show better and better. Seth Lamb says he loves Noah Ruschetta's work. Steve loves Eckhart Tolle stuff. Casey ends up says the road less traveled by M. Scott Peck. Amy, do you have any answers to that? You don't have to if you don't.

Amy [01:03:51] Yeah. Any of Brene Brown's stuff. I think I do love the podcast Happier. And then I just came across one called the other F word. It's about conversations about failure and ways you can learn from that and grow. And I think it's fantastic. It's as well. So that's my two cents.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:11] That's terrific.

John Dehlin [01:04:12] Beautiful. Owen Leonard wrote Leaving your Religion by James Mulholland. That little video, it's like 45 minutes an hour. It's one of the best, most dense, concise things I've ever seen on that topic. And I think he has a website and a book as well, but that's been really powerful. Jeremy, did you have something you wanted to throw in? No pressure. If you don't, you have to unmute yourself.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:40] Thanks.

Jeremy MacDonald [01:04:40] I got the audio fixed. Everybody listed a lot of great things. The part for me is whenever I read it, I sit down and write about it for five or 10 minutes. It helps me process what I'm going through and retain what I read. So that's the key for me.

John Dehlin [01:04:56] Beautiful. Shandy. You want to add anything?

Guest 2 [01:05:00] Yes, I do. So I have been reading this book, parenting beyond Belief.

Jeremy MacDonald [01:05:06] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:05:08] Who's the author?

Guest 2 [01:05:09] Great. Let's see. It's Dale McGowan. McGowan.

John Dehlin [01:05:15] He's the editor of the religious blog Pathos and he's a friend.

Guest 2 [01:05:22] Yeah, it's really great. And it's kind of geared towards raising kids in a secular. With a secular mind that also there are a lot of. I've got little kids. So I've been transitioning with littles. And we have bought some books for little kids that are just about discovering your surroundings and teaching morals without religion. So anyway, I'll have to make a

Margi Dehlin [01:05:48] list and I'll post it.

John Dehlin [01:05:49] Okay. Yeah, one thing we'll do is add show notes where we post books we reference at the end. Shandy Sarah Spencer wrote Shandy is our favorite Shmoopy.

Guest 2 [01:06:02] Sarah is a mod over at Thoughtful Transition.

John Dehlin [01:06:05] The mod at Thoughtful Transition, Sarah. Someone else asked the name of the group that Shandy mods because they didn't hear it, and it's called Thoughtful Transitions. There's also one called A Thoughtful Faith, for people trying to remain actively spiritually engaged within the church. They're very selective about joining, so you have to meet their criteria. There's always the Mormon stories, podcast, community, etc. Were you going to say something really quick, Shami?

Guest 2 [01:06:33] Well, I was just going to say for anybody that has transitioned but wants to kind of be in a safe place where other people can't really see that they're part of the group, Thoughtful Transition is that group. So we vet and we're really careful.

John Dehlin [01:06:48] Brilliant. Thank you. Okay, we are. We're past our hour, so I think it's okay to wrap up. I want us, you know, we don't, you know, it's not a guarantee that this program is going to continue. We really like it, we believe in it, we really want it to continue, but it's only going to continue with your support.

How to Support Mormon Transitions and Closing Remarks

John Dehlin [01:07:11] So here are some things you can do to make this program continue, and not just this podcast, but the project Mormon transitions, etc. The first thing you do, if you want to see continue to support us financially, you can go up to mormontransitions.org there's a donate button in the top, right. You can donate a recurring donation, 10, 20, 50, $100 a month, whatever you can afford.

John Dehlin [01:07:35] If you're no longer in the church and you have disposable income, you know, secular tithing that you want to use to contribute, Think of this as a way to give back to support others. It's all tax deductible, even if you're in the church. Hopefully everyone can afford $10 a month. If you can make recurring donations, that helps us pay Margi pay for the support services, the technology, the infrastructure. It goes to the foundation to pay Amy and our budget to make all this possible. The events to pay our podcasters. If you want to pay Dan more Gina, more money to the Open Stories foundation goes to support all the offerings that we have, not just this particular podcast.

John Dehlin [01:08:20] So please, please donate. We know that with, like Dan or Gina on my podcast, tens of thousands of listeners, hundreds of donors, please Change that ratio by just becoming a monthly donor. That could make the world of difference for us.

John Dehlin [01:08:37] Please like Mormon Transitions Facebook page. The more people that like it, the more people that tune in, the more it gets known and shared. Please promote episodes if you like this episode. If you like this project, share it on your wall. Just say, go up to Mormon Transitions. Go to this episode. Click Share. Share it on your wall, share it in groups you're a part of and say, hey, I listen to this. This seems like a really exciting endeavor. I want to support it. Please share it each episode on Facebook, on Twitter, wherever you share things in private, emails with other people, etc.

John Dehlin [01:09:15] Please email us with your questions, with your comments, with your feedback. Please let us know if the audio's bad or the video is bad or the experience is bad or if you love it. We would love to share your comments and questions on air. If you have ideas for topics, please share with us. We would love to incorporate those. Please leave voicemails as I said, and just tune in. If you're listening and engaging. You can appear on the show if you want to come on the show, either in video or call in format. And it was super helpful for people who just texted in. I really love the fact that people are giving their own suggestions real time.

John Dehlin [01:09:53] So it's not just us, it's the panelists, but also listeners answering questions through Facebook Live. That's a really powerful way for us to draw on the wisdom and the experience of the community and not just us. So those are the ways you can help. Please tune in, let us know.

John Dehlin [01:10:15] And this has been really fun. I'm really grateful. I think it wasn't a perfect show. We've got some audio things we need to work through, but Margi, I love you.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:25] I love you.

John Dehlin [01:10:26] And thank you for joining us on this first episode.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:29] My pleasure.

John Dehlin [01:10:29] Isn't she darling? I'm darling and wise. Let's not objectify her. She's darling and wise. Amy, any final words?

Amy [01:10:39] No, I think Margi's darling and wise as well. I think you are too. And thanks for letting me come on. That was so fun.

John Dehlin [01:10:45] All right. Thanks, Amy, for joining us. Dan, you want to give us a final word? I'm excited.

Guest 3 [01:10:52] Thanks. I hope to come back on this a few times and be happy to interact with anybody who ever wants to.

John Dehlin [01:10:58] Check out mormonmatters.org Donate to mormonmatters.org Dan deserves financial support.

John Dehlin [01:11:06] Please.

John Dehlin [01:11:09] We all do. It's good work and it's important work. We'd do it for free if we

Guest 3 [01:11:12] could, but it sure helps.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:15] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:11:16] Thank you Dan. I need to remember to click on their window to make their picture bigger when they contribute, so help me remember that. Okay. So Shandy, any final words for us?

Guest 2 [01:11:28] Just really excited. Can't wait. This is going to be a great project. It's going to help a lot of people. You guys are awesome.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:36] You too Shandy.

John Dehlin [01:11:39] And a shout out to thoughtful Transitions group. We look to that group to be one of the main user listener support groups. Thanks to the mods there, etc. Thanks again Shandy. You're awesome.

Guest 2 [01:11:50] Yeah, thanks you guys are too.

John Dehlin [01:11:53] And just finally thanks to everyone who tuned in today who listened after the show. Thanks to everyone who made comments. Thanks to everyone who wants to give us feedback. Please check out our next show. So just to close Tuesday 10am the topic will be basic tips on communicating in a healthy way with believers with orthodox believers. So that's going to be the topic of the show. If you want to appear, to ask a question, to participate. If you want to ask a question, email it, appear on the show. That will be our topic and we'll have some people join us and we'll have a great discussion. So what's Amy January?

John Dehlin [01:12:34] What? What is that? It's going to be the 10th, I'm guessing. Is that right? January 10th January 10th, 10:00am Mountain Time. Join us for that episode tips on healthy communication with believers and please email us or join us in any other way.

John Dehlin [01:12:51] We love you guys.

Margi Dehlin [01:12:53] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:12:53] Thanks for joining us.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:03] Hope you enjoyed Mormon transitions Episode 1 welcome back, welcome Kickoff episode to Mormon Transitions Live. It's early days here, but we are committed to improving and creating a great reference library for those experiencing or impacted by religious transitions. Your feedback is highly solicited. Mormontransitionsmail.com or connect with us live every Tuesday 10am Mountain Standard Time, 12pm EST or 5pm GMT and share your ideas and opinions with with us. Remember, your donations are tax deductible and permit us to help others work through their faith transitions and regain a sense of worth, stability and peace. Come Visit us@mormontransitions.org Click on the donate button in the top right hand corner and as little as $3 a one time or recurring donation goes a long way to help us help others. If you love this music like we do, it was generously provided by Hive Riot. Check them out. Hive r riot dot com.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.