Welcome and Introduction to the Evening

Part 1 of 3 · Ep. 697

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the donate button on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support.

Grant Palmer [00:00:36] The kindly light a myth encircling gloom Lead thou me on the night is dark and I am far from home.

Rick (host of the venue) [00:00:51] It's really good to have you all here. I understand there's a number of people that are paying attention from outside this location, and so welcome all of them as well. It's a unique evening and incredibly grateful to have you all here. It's a remarkable collection of thought leaders and just unique great personalities inside this bonded community. And yeah, it's a pleasure to know each of you. Like to, of course, welcome our guest and of course, his wife, Connie. Where's Connie? She's pretty close. Turns out she's right here to his left. You know, I suspect most time to his right, though. She's. She seems pretty sharp. And it's really nice to have you up here. Just with all of those that are here, I'd just like to call out what a unique evening it is to have Sandra with us as well. It would be too long and too distracting to go through all the different recognizable faces and voices from this really unique community. But most importantly, how about from the hearts of all those who are watching from outside and from everyone here? Well, so many of us have gone. Well, no, I guess let me take that back. We all started in the same place. I don't know how we all got into that place. We all have our story, how we got into, you know, that world. And we all have a very common theme on how we have ended up here tonight and the way our, you know, the things that occupy our thoughts these days. But for many of us, for many of the authors that are in the room with us this evening, really grateful. Thank you. For many of us, reading the words of Grant Palmer, you know, were times when not just education but changes, you know, decisions and, you know, new switches being turned, you know, reading the pages of his books and his research. And so for me, it's deeply personal because Holly and I went through our process inside the pages of Graham Palmer's words. So for everyone, why don't we welcome Grant Palmer. And of course, we have this evening the man that brought this all together for us, Mr. John Dehlin.

John Dehlin [00:04:21] Thank you so much, Rick and Holly. I just want to take a minute to just thank Rick and Holly for providing their beautiful home tonight. To us for this special evening. Thanks to you both. Rick and Holly have been incredible supporters of the Open Stories foundation over the past few years. But more importantly, they've been dear friends to me and Margi and to our family and to many of you. So thanks again. We love you guys. Welcome. Hello, everyone, and welcome again to another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. This is a live event. We haven't done a ton of these, but we're just so thrilled to have you all with us. It's February 15, 2017. We're somewhere near Park City, Utah, and we're here to honor a really special person in so many of our lives. Such a special evening. So grateful that so many of you are here. We think there should be an event like this with thousands of people attending, but we wanted to keep it intimate in terms of sort of who's in the room tonight. But we're so glad and grateful for those of you who have joined us through Facebook Live. We're hoping that you will also enjoy the fact that we're able to live stream this, and we hope you'll have a robust conversation as well. I'll just say very briefly that this event is made possible by the Open Stories foundation, by those who donate to it and support it. Many, if not all or most of you here are supporters. We just want to thank those of you who've made this possible tonight. There have been many people behind the scenes who have made this possible, including Amy Grubbs and Lisa and Shandy. They've been fabulous. And the Open Stories board of directors and of course, all of you support us. So I just had to just make sure we acknowledge that. And with that, we're ready to begin. And what I want to do tonight is start with the pop quiz, and we're going to see how good you guys do. You guys ready? You thought you were kind of done with school, but you're not. So for those of you who can't see, you're welcome to stand up and shift around. This will be a short part of the presentation, but if you don't want to miss out on the fun, you're welcome to stand up and shift around to look at the overhead. And Richard, do you want to. Is the. Do you know if the slides are in the shot? Just Want to make sure that the viewing audience, you guys, can actually post comments as well and take part in this quiz. So what I'm going to do is show you some photos tonight, and I'm going to ask you to tell me if you recognize who the people are, and then you have to keep a tally of how many you knew, and we'll see who gets a hundred. Is that all right? Is that too much pressure? You guys stressed out? They stress you out? Okay, don't shout it out. I'll tell you when to shout it out. All right, we'll give people time to guess. All right, here we go. It's time for a pop quiz. Richard, we get on the video. All right, ready for a pop quiz. Those of you watching live can comment on the stream. Who's that? Don't answer yet. Give you a chance to think about it. All right, shout it out. BH Roberts is the correct answer. All right, one point if you got BH Roberts. All right. Okay, let's go for the second one. You guys ready? Who's that? Wait, Think about it. Think about it. All right, what's the answer? What? Juanita Brooks. What's that? Juanita Brooks is the answer. All right, here's the next one. Don't answer. Think about it. Think about it. Who's that? Fawn McKay Brody, author of no Man Knows My History. Juanita Brooks, author of mountain meadows massacre. B.H. roberts. What did he do? General authority of the Church. A mountain of scholarly work. Very important in helping us understand a little bit more about the Book of Mormon and what it is and what it isn't. Let's just say B.H. roberts, Juanita Brooks, Fawn Brody. All right, who's next? Think about it. Don't answer. Some of you may have known this guy. Who is it? Leonard Arrington. What was his role? Church historian for 10ish years. Right? Camelot. Years of church history. Okay. All right, next one. Think about it. Don't answer, don't answer, don't answer. All right, who's that? Gerald and Sandra Tanner, founders of the Utah Lighthouse Ministry. Sandra's right there in the back when you give Sandra a round of applause. She's here with us now. Sandra is a pioneer in helping us all see the Church a little more clearly. Her and her husband, late husband Gerald, also been on Mormon Stories podcast, one of our favorite episodes. All right, next photo. You guys ready? Okay, think this is going to be. Some of you all know this. Some of you won't know. All right, answer. Who is it? Michael Marquardt. He's also here. Right here in the back. Grant. When Grant. Grant brought Michael. Grant's. When Grant introduced Michael to me, he said my work would not have been possible without Michael. See how that works. From Grant Palmer to Fawn Brody to Juanita Brooks to Leonard Arrington to Sandra Gerald Tanner to Michael Marquardt. Let's keep going. That's a great photo, by the way. Really nice photo. All right, think about it. Think about it. This one's gonna get a little easier. Who's that? Michael Quinn. D. Michael Quinn brought on by Leonard Arrington into the church history department. Right? So much of. So much of what we know and think now comes from his work, especially the Origins of Power and Extensions of Power, along with Mormonism and the early magic worldview. Very important works. Also so much to mention. All right, here's another one. Think about it. Think about it. Don't answer. Who's that? Maxine Hanks. Did you guys know that Maxine's here? Wave. Maxine. Maxine's here in the back. Maxine is one of the September six, one of the six people excommunicated for publishing factual church history. She published a book or collection of essays on women and the priesthood and authority that. That stands as a seminal work in Mormon history. And we're really glad you're joining us, Maxine, and we honor you and your contributions. You love Grant. You're here for Grant. All right. Who's that? Who's that with the biceps that are so big? He's got scars because his biceps are bulging out of his skin. Who's that, everybody? Brett Metcalf. He's not with us, but he sends his love. He's been interviewed on Mormon stories. He's been a very important scholar. He is, buddy. He hot tubbed with Mark Hoffman, and he's been a really important scholar on many things, but particularly on what? What book? Book of Abraham. Right? All right. Who's that guy?

Celebrating the Life and Work of Grant Palmer

Grant Palmer [00:12:57] Whoa.

John Dehlin [00:13:00] All right, now we got the millennials clapping. What's that? The scouting mockingbird. Mockingjay. Who's that? Jeremy Runnels, author of CES Letter. Right. All right. Jeremy's been a super important force in modern Mormonism. Who's that? Who is that? Say it loudly. Where's Lindsay? Did she bail? Did she bail? All right, well, Lindsay missed out, but Lindsay Hansen park is a very important modern day historian of a different type. But her podcast, Year of Polygamy has made a really important contribution, would you all agree? Plus her work with Sunstone, who am I forgetting shout out some names. Who? Devery Anderson? Yep. He's done important work on the temple and supporting dialogue. Yep. And his work on Emmett Till. Who else? Who? Dan Vogel. We'll hear from him later. Greg Prince, Lots of people who have all been a part. And why am I mentioning all these names? What do all these people have in common? Here's what I wanted to say. This is my little tribute. All of these people worked very meticulously to gather evidence regarding LDS Church history. They all showed great courage to publish their findings, pretty much all of them at a great personal cost. They were all punished or marginalized by the institutional Mormon Church in some way for their honesty, for their courage, for their integrity. And for those of us who consider ourselves to be in a good place, either within the church or outside the church, we owe them and people like them a massive debt of gratitude because they helped us see the church and reality more clearly than we would have. Oh, thank you.

Rick (host of the venue) [00:15:33] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:15:34] Thanks, Kim. Thanks. Thanks, Pat. Thank you. But that'd be kind of lame to put my own face up there, right? I can't. And the image that I, you know, one of the things I'm trying to really grow, one of the ways I'm trying to grow is that in spite of feeling hurt or disappointed by the church, I want to grow to the point where I can be gracious and lovely to everyone on the spectrum from the non believing all the way through to the most orthodox and believing. And so it's tough to find a metaphor that isn't sort of talking down or degrading. The revelation that came to me the other night was sort of like some people may be on a train in a seat belt and that may be exactly where they want to be, where they're most comfortable and where they're most happy. But if you put a bird in that seat belt on that train, it may be a very different experience for that bird. And so not all of us are passengers on a train who want to be comfortably seat belted in. Many of us are birds who want to fly. And what I want to say is that why we're here to honor Grant tonight and why we're here and also symbolically to honor so many people is because what I think your greatest contribution is that for those of us who want to be birds and who want to fly, you helped cut the chain or the seatbelt or the tether to allow us to be and go exactly where we want to be and go and to do. And that's why when I, Grant, heard that you were struggling in your health. I remembered back to the days in Seattle where I was going through my own crisis and how much your book, An Insider's View of Mormon Origins, was influential to me. And so many of us today stand on your shoulders. So we've already thanked him once, but I just want to close my little memorial and thank you one more time, Grant, personally, for what you've meant to me and to so many of us. So let's give Grant one more round of applause. All right, so this evening is going to be sort of two more parts. What we're going to do is we're going to do an interview or interview Grant. Should I shut the projector off now? Would that be better for the. So what we're going to do now is we're going to. I'm going to interview Grant and we're going to talk about three things. We're going to talk about an insider's view of Mormon origins, a little bit, a little bit of reflections on that. We're going to talk about his new book, which he's going to be coming out with soon. And we're going to be talking sort of about final, you know, reflections for the evening on whatever he wants to share with us about his life and about the future, etc. So that's going to be a three part interview. And then what we're going to have to do at the end, because we're, you know, either Mormons or post Mormons, we gonna have a little testimony meeting and we're gonna, we're gonna take turns. Some of us are gonna come up, be really brief and share with Grant just a little bit of appreciation, kind of one by one. And we can't go forever. And we'll have to keep it brief, but we're gonna give time for at least a handful of you to come up and thank Grant yourselves for what he's done. Does that sound all right? All right, now if I sit down, does that mean no one? Are you guys gonna hate that? You guys. Okay, if any of you need to shift your chairs around to see better, you can also pull out your iPhones and watch the stream. But is this going to be okay? Are you all right? Okay. All right, so Lloyd's got his. Got his phone working. Okay. All right, Grant, so most of us are here. Most of us are here because of your book, An Insider's View of Mormon Origins. We can obviously refer our listeners to that book and to the multi hour interview that we did on that Is it episodes, what, 30 through 32? Is that right? On Mormon stories, there's four of them. Yeah. I don't know the exact numbers, but let's just talk briefly about it. Tell us why you wrote An Insider's View of Mormon Origins.

Grant Palmer on Writing an Insider's View

Grant Palmer [00:20:24] Is this on? Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:26] Yes.

Grant Palmer [00:20:27] Well, I suppose there's a lot of reasons. One of the reasons is when I was doing my PhD work at BYU, I read all these dissertations and theses, and I thought, you know, a lot of this stuff isn't known in the Mormon Sunday School. And so I thought, I think there's a niche to write a book as a school teacher, put 50 page, 50 pictures, 50 plus pictures in there and try to write it for not a professional audience, but just those who had an interest in Mormon history. So that was one of the reasons I wrote it. I thought it would fill a niche. I think Signature Books thought it would sell well to college students, but it turned out to sell well to all audiences, and I've been very grateful for that. Another, Another influence is when I, again, when I was doing PhD work, I had four areas of emphasis, and one of them was the Enlightenment, the Second Great Awakening. And as I started to, I started to see that all of those sermons of the Great Awakening that Joseph Smith would have been very familiar with were very, very familiar to what preachers were teaching in that era. And it's practically the same thing as you find between King Benjamin and Alma II in the Book of Mormon. That's 11 or 12 preachers. And so I thought, this is not a coincidence. And then one other thing. The insider's view is the first half is basically the Book of Mormon. The last four chapters of the eight is the four foundational visions of the church. And I found they had a pattern, especially the angel gold plate story, the priesthood restoration. In the first vision, they all started out kind of mundane and not too spiritual. And with each telling, they became more unique and material, physical, and, yes, miraculous. And I thought, if it had only been one of them, there may not have been an insider's view, but the fact that there were three of the four foundational vision, the fourth being that the witnesses, and there's a little bit of evolution in that one as well. But those last three, I thought, this, this is a problem. So I would say those are three influences.

Intent and Impact of Publishing the Book

John Dehlin [00:23:13] When, when you contemplated, when you're writing the manuscript and when you contemplated actually publishing it, what, what was your intent or hope that, what impact did you think it might have or did you want it to have?

Grant Palmer [00:23:26] Well, I thought I might get in trouble, and I did. But, you know, I was, I'm a colonial historian. This is colonial material. And I was asked this question at my high council court, and I says, well, it's kind of like Sir Edmund Hillary. I did it because it was there. He climbed Mount Everest, and it was within my bailiwick and within my purview of interest and scholarship. And so I wrote it. I was quite naive. I thought everyone would be interested in the truth. Boy, was I wrong about that.

John Dehlin [00:24:03] But you must have known that it had the potential to be highly disruptive to both people's faith and also to the church.

Grant Palmer [00:24:12] Well, I did. And that's why I wanted the Incomparable Jesus to be part of the first book. Insider Signature did not want to do that. And I'm glad they didn't because Signatures, I mean, because the Incomparable Jesus is a better book because I waited two years to research and publish that one. But, but I didn't want to leave people high and dry. And yet I knew it would in some cases. That's why I wanted the Jesus book. I wanted to give him a direction. But as you know, so many people, they find out Mormonism isn't true and that's, that's the end of religion.

John Dehlin [00:24:50] But when you send a book like that out, first of all, did you have an idea that it would impact the church the way that it has? And, and did you want, how did you want the church to be impacted by the book?

Grant Palmer [00:25:04] Well, like I said, I just thought everybody had welcomed the truth, but, meaning

John Dehlin [00:25:08] they would just all admit that it wasn't true and go home like, well,

Grant Palmer [00:25:11] they at least consider what I'd written and, and go from there. But of course, they don't do it that way. I mean, my church court, 15, 18 high counselors, and one of them had read the book and he was appointed to be on the church's side for the, you know, so I don't know what you do. I mean, they didn't read it. I don't think they wanted to read it. They weren't interested in read it. They just said at the court that I had damaged some people's faith. That was it. I think Jeremy got the same routine, and that's how they do it. They're really not interested in the truths.

John Dehlin [00:25:56] Did you want the church to go away? Did you want the church to be more honest, to change? What did you want to happen to the church itself? Or did you not think about that?

Grant Palmer [00:26:09] No, I, I, I, I wanted Them to. To make some changes. I only had fifth out of a six hour court. I had 15 minutes and I.

John Dehlin [00:26:18] But, but I'm talking about why the book, not the court. Why. Why the book? What did you want to happen as a result?

Grant Palmer [00:26:24] I'd like to see some changes and some honesty. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:26:27] See the church become more honest. But did you want them to. Okay, the Book of Mormon isn't. Okay, the church isn't true. Did you want that type of admission? Was that in your purview of what might happen?

Grant Palmer [00:26:39] I really didn't know. I just wrote the book. I didn't know how successful it was going to be.

Rick (host of the venue) [00:26:43] It's.

Grant Palmer [00:26:44] I just wrote it because I felt like I had to.

John Dehlin [00:26:48] So not a ton of thought about its impact. More you felt like you needed to write it.

Grant Palmer [00:26:52] No. And yet I thought there'd be some problems.

John Dehlin [00:26:54] Okay. What has been the hardest part about publishing the book for you?

Grant Palmer [00:27:03] I think some of the reactions of my family. But you know, we have a lot of political and religious differences in my. Among my four children, but I can honestly say we have transcended that with love. And we're quite close and I'm very appreciative of that. Not all families have that kind of outcome, but we do. And I'm very happy to report that.

John Dehlin [00:27:30] Do you want to. Do you want to tell us who's here tonight or do you. Would you rather not? And hold the mic right to your mouth, if you don't mind.

Grant Palmer [00:27:35] Oh, my. One son, Rhett and his. His wife Lisa are here. And then another son, David and his wife Jenny are here. So I'm happy to have them here.

John Dehlin [00:27:54] And your sweetheart and Connie. Can we give them a round of applause, everybody? I can say on behalf of my wife Margi, that having a close member of the family become such a public figure in a polarizing and not always pleasing way can be very traumatic and distressful and stressful for the family. And it's not a trivial thing. It's not something anyone really asks for, especially because most people are private. So I think it's just important that we honor you and thank you. Even if you didn't want to be part of it, you were part of it. And I imagine it's been bumpy and difficult at times. So thank you for your sacrifices. We. We appreciate it. Thank you.

Grant Palmer [00:28:51] I warned Connie 24 years ago that this might happen with my book and it happened.

John Dehlin [00:29:01] How so what was the positive. What's the positive response been to your.

Grant Palmer [00:29:07] Overwhelming. Overwhelming. I.

John Dehlin [00:29:09] When people are grateful, what do they

Grant Palmer [00:29:11] say, oh, you'll hear them when they speak. It's pretty much follows that line. But I always like that Beatle song where they said they got along with a little help from their friends. And I feel that way about you guys and a lot of others. And I thought maybe. Well, I've got hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of friends, but maybe it's more like thousands. And that's a real shockeroof.

John Dehlin [00:29:40] So you've been grateful for the friendships.

Grant Palmer [00:29:43] And, you know, I haven't had too many really negative people come after me. I mean, I get them. But it's overwhelmingly positive. It really is. So it's fortunately very lopsided in a favorable way.

John Dehlin [00:29:59] That's been my experience, too. What is it like to be viewed by a large chunk of other people as the Antichrist, as Kori whore, as an evil person? Has that. Does that ever hit you? Has that ever sunk in? Does that ever occur to you? And if so, what's that like for you? And how do you deal with that?

Grant Palmer [00:30:23] Well, I don't view myself as a coral horror or anything like it because

John Dehlin [00:30:27] some say core whore is not a pejorative. Actually, some say it's a title to.

Grant Palmer [00:30:32] I consider myself a Christian, a believing Christian, have a relationship with Jesus Christ. But it's interesting, my stake president, who's Harvard educated, he says, now, I want you to go through the Scriptures and find all the Antichrist and to see where you slipped up. And I did that. And I came back and I says, I don't identify with any of them. Sorry.

John Dehlin [00:31:02] But still, you have to walk around town knowing that there's people who see you and think that you have harmed others.

Grant Palmer [00:31:11] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:12] Have you stopped to think about that? And how do you process that?

Grant Palmer [00:31:15] They don't say anything. The people that are favorable speak to me.

John Dehlin [00:31:19] So you.

Grant Palmer [00:31:20] I never had people. I never had anyone come up and say, you destroyed this and my family and so forth. Not really. I'm grateful for that.

John Dehlin [00:31:31] Yeah. But. But. But you probably know that some still think it.

Grant Palmer [00:31:35] Oh, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:31:35] How do you process My own family? How do you process that?

Grant Palmer [00:31:41] I think the evidence is so overwhelming about that Mormonism is not what it claims to be, that I figure that they're the ones that are going to have to make the adjustments, not me.

Grant Palmer's Lowest Point and Resilience

John Dehlin [00:31:59] I had a really great question from a listener. They wrote, describe the. Describe your lowest point and then how you bounced back from your lowest point.

Grant Palmer [00:32:09] I think my lowest point was in the court. And I don't want to get into this because we've moved past this as a family. But they asked my son in law to write and stand in front of me and read that I had denied Christ and stuff like that and that hurt. And the bishop who was with me at the time, he says that young man is on shakier ground than he sounds like. And I appreciated the bishop's comment. I confronted him about it and he denied it. But the stake president wanted. They like to use the family to drive a wedge to get you to do their bidding or give it up or what. And. But that was a very low, unexpected blow to me. But like I said, we're past that and I'm grateful that we are. We really are past that. So I don't want to dwell on that. But that one really hurt at the time.

John Dehlin [00:33:18] How did you bounce back from that?

Grant Palmer [00:33:23] I've always had the gift of forgiving people rather quickly and readily and I'm glad I have that gift.

John Dehlin [00:33:32] I imagine your faith in Christ is a model for that.

Grant Palmer [00:33:36] Yeah. And that's the hardest thing to do in Christianity is forgive, forgiveness. And yet when you can do it. I watched. I counseled inmates for 13 years and those who healed the best and the fastest were those who forgave those who had done harm to them. Boy, some of them held tremendous grudges. Have some real stories about that.

John Dehlin [00:34:01] But maybe your advice is when you can forgive, it'll be better for you.

Grant Palmer [00:34:06] Yeah, it's for you. It's for your healing more than anyone.

John Dehlin [00:34:11] Love it. Do you have a sense for what the impact of your book has been on the church? There's so many. I mean we all, we all stand on the shoulders of giants. Some say that you didn't do much original research, that you. Some like to dismiss an insider's view as just a compilation of, you know, no man knows my history and work gone before. You know, I'm not really trying to pin that on you, but at the same time we're all here and all of us that are trying to make a difference sort of look to you as someone who's been a major influencer. Do you have any way to assess what impact your book has had on the church in the modern day?

Grant Palmer [00:34:57] I like some of the things you said and I don't know if they're true or not. I know the one about Mormon think is true. He founder of MormonThink called me and says, I've read your book and I want to give something back to this community. And so he started Mormon Think. And at one time they were getting 2 to 3 million hits per month. So it has had quite an impact. And as you know, Mormon think has the, as the critical and has the apologetics, he says. I spent almost all my time looking for good apologist arguments and I couldn't hardly find any. But I like what the other things you said, they may be true. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:35:39] When the, when the essays, for example, when the essays are published, do you kind of think that maybe, do you kind of go, huh, maybe something that I did helped influence that?

Grant Palmer [00:35:47] Well, I think a lot of historians caused that moment to happen. I, I may have been one of them.

John Dehlin [00:35:52] Yeah, I kind of think so too. So someone asked, what benefits do you see from the Internet or social media age that you wish were available when you went through your own discovering the church's truth back in the 80s and 90s?

The Internet, Truth, and Leaving the Church

Grant Palmer [00:36:11] Well, the Internet popularizes everything, doesn't it? It makes things known. It's a, it's the things that the church thought were nailed down. None of it's nailed down. It's all there at the press of a button. And this has been a good thing for humanity on the whole. Yeah, I did my research the old fashioned way. There's no Internet. You know, I don't, I won't say more about that, but one of the giant shoulders I stood on is here tonight. That's Michael Marquardt. He's the Dale Morgan of our era. And he relentlessly shared his material with me and it made my book a better book. No, there's not a lot of original research in my book. There is some and there's some creative angles, but. What was I going to say? There's some creative angles, but like I said at the onset of the program, I just thought we need to get this material out to the people. This is before the Internet, right? At the beginning of the Internet. And the Internet has done nothing but promote it and expand it and advertise it and everything else.

John Dehlin [00:37:35] Sure. Talk about your decision to resign from the church and how that's been for you since you made that decision. Why did you make that decision and how's that been for you?

Grant Palmer [00:37:49] Well, I wrote an obscure article called Religious Feeling and Truth in a Baptist.

John Dehlin [00:37:54] I guess we should say that the, the verdict of your original disciplinary council was disfellowshipment, right?

Grant Palmer [00:38:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:02] And then how many years later?

Grant Palmer [00:38:06] Seven or eight.

John Dehlin [00:38:07] Okay, now finish your story.

Grant Palmer [00:38:08] Sorry, that's 2010. I wrote an obscure article in a Baptist seminary magazine back in Kansas City, Missouri. Religious and feeling and truth. Religious feeling and truth. And it will be one of the 20 chapters in my new book which is titled Restoring Christ, Giving Up Mormon Jesus for Biblical or for Gospels Jesus. And that'll be one of the essays in there. And lo and behold, my stake president shows up on my doorstep. Now this man has no academic credentials or interest. He sells pots and pans and dry goods to Rite Aid. But here he is. And I think he got the article from Strengthening the Church Committee or whatever it's called now. And he proceeded to tell me this was all false and that we're going to hold a court on you. And, and I says, well, I don't want to go through another six hour court. He says, oh, this one won't be six hours. And he and I, he kept saying he must hold a cord on me, which means he got his directions from that way instead of that way. And so I finally asked the right question. What do I need to do to just be a roll pad member on the church? And he had written me a letter saying I had to repudiate every chapter of my book and, and regain my testimony. And I thought now the bishop was with him. I like this bishop. He thought I had a 50% chance of survival. And after that he says, you have no chance. And I thought I had a 25% chance of survival. So I submitted my resignation to be proactive because sometimes people talk, the church says, well, we can't talk about why he was disciplined and all that. So I decided to go proactive and resign, which I did in 2010. And I have had no regrets whatsoever about that.

John Dehlin [00:40:42] Was there a part of you that was sad? Was there?

Grant Palmer [00:40:46] There would have been if they would have excommunicated me in 20 or 2, 2002, because I was still, you know, still more of a believer. But by 2010 and all the water that got on the bridge, I'd say no.

John Dehlin [00:41:09] Many people have asked with reference to your book, would you have done anything differently? Looking back, do you have any regrets? Or would you have maybe done some things differently in how you handled that whole thing up until your resignation?

Grant Palmer [00:41:24] I'm not sure what you mean by that last statement, but as for the book, I wouldn't change much in the book. If anything, I probably would put another chapter on the influence of anti Masonic rights, ritual and so forth. But at the time it was so up in the air I wasn't sure. Anyway, I left that book out. If I did it again, I'd probably have one more chapter on that. What was the last?

John Dehlin [00:41:55] I didn't understand just any other regrets or things you would have done differently, not just with the book, but with how things have been since releasing the book.

Grant Palmer [00:42:06] Well, that's why I have a second chance in this this new title, which I submitted to Signature Books January 10th, and they're slow enough that I probably won't be around to publish it should they decide to publish it. They haven't said they will, but it's given me a chance to write 10 chapters that is extended but in the same genre as Insider, and 10 chapters that have been written beyond the Incomparable Jesus. Although these ten chapters are more academic, not not so devotional. So those who want to get the answer to that, I guess can pick that book up sometime.

Reflections on Regrets and Relationships

John Dehlin [00:42:56] All right, Ever the scholar in terms of family or community or friendships or any other non scholarly ways. Any regrets?

Grant Palmer [00:43:10] No, I don't think so. I think it's I think I'd do it again.

John Dehlin [00:43:16] All right. Excellent. Okay, so that's the first part of the interview. Now we're going to the second. The second part is around your new book. Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org music for this episode was provided by the Lower Lights

Grant Palmer [00:43:44] Cease to make me whole when with a wounded heart, anger or malice, I draw myself apart, Searching my soul.

Part 2 of 3 · Ep. 698

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the Donate button on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support.

Grant Palmer [00:00:36] The Kindly light a myth encircling gloom Leave out me on the night is dark and light.

Grant Palmer's New Book on Jesus

John Dehlin [00:00:49] All right, excellent. Okay, so that's the first part of the interview. Now we're going to the second. The second part is around your new book. Now I have the title here, Restoring Christ Writings on Christianity Mormonism. But you had a little bit more lengthy of a title.

Grant Palmer [00:01:04] Yeah, a little catchier title.

John Dehlin [00:01:06] Say one more time.

Grant Palmer [00:01:07] A little catchier title than the one you just read.

John Dehlin [00:01:10] No, no, repeat the title.

Grant Palmer [00:01:12] Restoring Christ Giving a Mormon Jesus for Gospels Jesus. And I have several chapters in there where I compare the Mormon Jesus with the the four Gospels Jesus. And I found I don't really like the Mormon Jesus very much.

John Dehlin [00:01:38] What do you mean by that?

Grant Palmer [00:01:39] Well, I've got a chapter in there if you it was very therapeutic of me to to compare the two and see the difference. We're not just dealing with Joseph Smith here, but Joseph Smith's Jesus. And and it's turned out to be a rather catharsis cathartic experience for me to make that comparison. I have one chapter in the books called Two Different Jesuses and I could

John Dehlin [00:02:06] just

Grant Palmer [00:02:08] rattle off five or six themes that are on that without getting into any details, but

John Dehlin [00:02:15] just give us a sense for the difference between the Gospel.

Grant Palmer [00:02:19] Yeah, that's what I'm going to do. The the Gospels Jesus is more invitational. He's not as autocratic when talk believers the biblical the Gospels Jesus allows more freedom. Mormon Jesus is. He's got prescriptions for every orifice of the body from head to foot. The Mormon Jesus is very he likes to initiate the carnage in third Nephi nine. You don't find that in Matthew 25 and there's more to understanding that than I'm speaking. But we really have never talked about how the Old Testament was put together and that helps you understand that the Deuteronomist God of the Old Testament prevail. It was kind of like having Boyd K. Packer write the Old Testament. And we had different points of view, but they just didn't get in. Okay. That's very simple explanation of a complicated subject. But it's important that the Mormon Jesus initiates the carnage and he is a Deuteronomist God of the Old Testament. I would also say that the Gospels Jesus has a much easier way to get to live in the City of God with him and his father. The Mormon Jesus has far more requirements including marriage. And there is no, there is no requirement of marriage in the Hebrew Bible, in the New Testament or the Book of Mormon. It's only Joseph Smith in 132. And then he says you must be a polygamist to get into the top tier. Not so with Jesus in the, in, in the four Gospels there are other things the doctrinal emphasis Jesus wants. He's really telling his disciple, I'm not going to be here very long, pay close attention. 36 times he says, pay attention to me, follow me, look to me, so forth. The Mormon Jesus wants you to focus on his church and his prophet. And if there's a difference, you go with a prophet, not Jesus. It's a, it's. That's a very important one. But it doesn't sound like it on the surface. There are all kinds of things Jesus says he tells his church. When you give your alms, money, whatever, don't broadcast it, don't advertise it. Mormons have a title settlement. You have to. The Mormon Jesus requires a tithing settlement. You've got to step up to the the plate and declare same with a humanitarian aid. They've in recent years have been taking reporters along, journalists. This is not the Jesus of the four gospels. And I think another very important one is that the Mormon Jesus has a tendency to exclude certain groups and the Jesus of the gospel is far more inclusive. Let me just say one thing about that. Look, Jesus apostles were very biased. They didn't like Samaritans and they didn't like Gentiles. And Jesus tells them, go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. They did so in, in Acts 8 there's Philip teaching the Samaritans he didn't like them. In Acts 10 there's Peter. Cornelius the Gentile comes to him and Peter's seen unclean things in a sheet. And Cornelius knocks on his door and Peter connects the dots that he's to give the gospel to the Gentiles. And Peter is astonished. He says, I didn't know God was no respecter of person. So they took the gospel to the world. The Mormon Jesus, he gets around to the blacks in 1978. And now they don't like the gays very much. So it reflects the personality of the Mormon Jesus. He's reluctant, he's tardy, he's slow. And you add all this up and you have two different Jesus, and they're quite different. Different. And to me, the nature of the biblical gospel Jesus is a more loving being. That's enough.

John Dehlin [00:07:00] Beautiful. What. Why did you pick this book as your final book? You alluded to that previously, but just say it like, why this book? Why a book on Jesus? You've done the incomparable Jesus. Why have you picked this book as your.

Grant Palmer [00:07:16] Well, these are just essays that go beyond the incomparable Jesus and go beyond insider's view. What did I say, by the way? What did you say when, When I alluded to.

John Dehlin [00:07:29] Oh, just that. Just that you wanted to give people a direction, kind of something to move towards.

Grant Palmer [00:07:33] Well, I didn't want to leave them hanging. And that doesn't mean they're gonna do what I say. I mean, there's a lot. Look, what does a person do after the narrative of their life has fallen apart? Everybody in this room practically is identified with that. What? There are many ways to go. I kind of like the way the community of Christ, our LDS church, is done. When Wallace B. Smith was asked in 19, oh, I was going to say 68, they were on just the beginning. Their scholars and their leadership discovered that Mormonism wasn't what it claimed to be. And they were, they were way ahead of us in the LDS Church. He, he said this and it's turned out to be a very important watershed experience. He says, he was asked, he says, what do you do if there's a contradiction between Jesus and Joseph? What do you do if there's differences? And he said we'd have to go with Jesus. And it seemed kind of innocent at the time, but it's proven to be very important. They've put Jesus Christ first and everything else that's problematic is washed into the background. I admire them for that. They did not. They took Joseph Smith on head on. They didn't paper over it. They lost a lot of members. But now they have stabilized and are slightly growing once again. And I admire them for that. And I, I think that's a model that the LDS Church should follow. But it looks to me like they're doubling down and putting out half truth essays and, you know, trying to educate the younger generation with a new agenda and a new tradition.

John Dehlin [00:09:29] As, you know, secularism is growing and our, our research shows that over half of those who kind of lose faith in Mormonism become either atheist or agnostic. Yeah, so I think there's many of your fans who would have liked to see you kind of follow that path just because we tend to project as humans and want everyone to arrive at the brilliant conclusions we arrive at as individuals. But just briefly, your. Your book is really interesting. Part of what it does is it tries to address some of the concerns about did Jesus really exist? And. And why people should give Jesus a chance. And let me just ask you really just a few of those points. We'll cover just some of the points in some of the chapters. First and foremost, why fight? Why are you fighting for belief? Why do you want to encourage people to believe in Jesus? It may be obvious, but I'd just like to hear your answer to that.

Grant Palmer [00:10:32] Because I think he's real and I have a relationship with him. And people can say it's pie in the sky or the but to me his promises are true, that he gives my peace. I leave with you. My spirit will bring things to you. Remember, I will manifest myself in your life. This kind of thing. But I did want to write something for somewhere for people to go. But you almost have to give up the Mormon Jesus to see the real Jesus.

John Dehlin [00:11:11] What would you say your faith in Jesus is based on now?

Grant Palmer [00:11:15] Oh, that's a good one. Especially since I'm stirring my mortality in its face. I always like that joke by the comedian W.C. field. He says this life is so difficult it's a wonder anyone gets out of alive. There's several things. Look, I have a degree in philosophy and I can argue with the best of them agnostics. My agnostic atheist friends. Fine. Some of them are agnostic theists, meaning they don't know, but they believe there's a God. And some are agnostic atheists, meaning they believe there isn't a God. Some of them believe that when you die it all goes dark and. But they hope that there's consciousness on the other side and to be bare bones honest, that is the truth. We don't know. Not really. So why do I believe that there will be another world? I found Jesus Christ to be satisfying enough in my life. I've had lot of dreams and experiences. I've had one experience that was live and in color and it wasn't a dream. And to me it was stronger than sight. It's in the incomparable Jesus for those who want to see it. And I remember telling an atheist about this dream in detail or this live Experience in detail. And he said to me, he says, I'd hold on to that if I were you. And I have, and I can't explain that one away. I can explain all the dreams, Freud and all of that, but I cannot and will not explain this one experience. There's I hope Wernher von Braun is right, this rocket scientist. Nothing disappears without a trace. I hope to survive. From a science point of view, the miracle of personality is just. What a waste if it all ends. What a waste. So there's different aspects that I argue and think and so forth, but there's just a part of me that just assumes that I'm going to carry on and I, I can't get rid of it. Maybe it's something I was raised with, I don't know. But I do believe in a next world.

John Dehlin [00:13:45] If you can't hold the mic right up to your mouth, I mean not that close, but just point it towards your mouth instead of just for the audience. If somebody were to say to you, grant, okay, so your testimony is based on faith and probably feelings you've had. And that's probably how believing Mormons, believing Muslims base their faith as well. How do you reconcile, you know, your differing beliefs from theirs if they're sort of claiming the same basis for belief?

Grant Palmer [00:14:18] Well, this one experience goes beyond what most Mormons have experienced, number one. But yes, what about the Buddhists and the Muslims and the so forth and so on.

John Dehlin [00:14:30] And there are Mormons with strong spiritual experiences.

Grant Palmer [00:14:34] If you look at what Jesus is saying, he says, take upon yourself my character. And you find those characteristics in almost all the major religions. Now this is Grant Palmer speaking because the New Testament doesn't say what I'm about to say. I think he's going to be generous with them, but I don't know that. Maybe I'm dead wrong. Sander might have a much stronger point of view in a little different direction. But I just, I think he really is God, but I think he's going to be generous for those who have taken upon himself, themselves, his character and nature. That's a just a personal belief of mine

John Dehlin [00:15:28] and, and other people's faith that differs from yours. How do you square those?

Grant Palmer [00:15:35] Same thing I. He's a generous, he's always generous. He talked to everyone. I can't see him getting hard nosed. Although there are scriptures in the New Testament that don't sound so good about unbelievers.

John Dehlin [00:15:56] You're saying God will be generous to everyone.

Grant Palmer [00:15:57] That's what I'm hoping.

John Dehlin [00:15:59] But how do you Reconcile the fact that you're basing your same. Your beliefs on the same method that others based theirs, but yours are different. How do you know yours are reliable?

Grant Palmer [00:16:10] Well, ultimately, you don't. You take. You don't. You don't know for sure. I'm just saying I've had one experience that went way beyond what most religious people would have with feelings and that kind of thing. And so that's one aspect of it. I'd hate to see human personality disappear. It seems like such a miracle to me. All the characters in this. I don't know, it just seems like a waste of time otherwise.

John Dehlin [00:16:43] Beautiful. Thank you. Real quickly, there are people who like to say that the historical Jesus never existed. You write a chapter on that. Do you want to just talk briefly about people who would say Jesus didn't even really exist, let alone resurrect?

Historical Jesus and the New Testament

Grant Palmer [00:17:03] Well, there's hardly any scholars who believe that. This is Internet people, largely. But when Paul converts. We know Paul converted just a few years after Jesus's resurrection. And I won't go into why we know that, but we know that it's in the chapter. He says he goes into the desert for three years. He doesn't talk to anyone. And then he comes down to Jerusalem and who does he talk to? Peter, who knew Jesus better than anyone. And James, the brother of the Lord. That's as close to an eyewitness as you're going to get. If James doesn't know that Jesus was his brother and lived, nobody knows that Jesus lived, in my opinion. There are other reasons, but it's mainly internal. We don't have a lot of external pieces of evidence that Jesus was a historical person. Tacitus is probably the best he wrote around. He was a Roman senator, a Roman historian, and he clearly talks about Christus and how he was received the ultimate punishment by one of our prosecutors, Pontius Pilate, during the reign of Tiberius, and all that fits. But there's not a lot of good statements externally to that. Josephus has been tampered with, in my view, and others are a little weaker. But it's the internal evidence that convinced me that Jesus of Nazareth was a real person.

John Dehlin [00:18:47] Internal evidence, meaning within this, within the.

Grant Palmer [00:18:51] The New Testament itself.

John Dehlin [00:18:53] Okay. If somebody were to express concern that the Gospels, many of them, weren't written until generations, actually written down until generations after Jesus's death and were passed down through oral tradition, so how reliable can they be? What would you say to that?

Grant Palmer [00:19:13] Well, the argument is that they didn't write anything down until they were written in what, 70 to 95 AD. And so you know how oral tradition is, you can't rely on it. And besides, they're written in polished Greek and the disciples didn't know Greek, which is true. It says they were uneducated, I think, in Acts and so forth and so on. So they like to conclude, the deniers, that there, there is no, we can't rely on the four Gospels. Look at the very first word of Luke. Now Luke was a missionary companion to Paul and he did know Greek and he wrote some things down, but he didn't write the book of Luke. Matthew didn't write the book of Matthew, Mark didn't write the Gospel of Matthew and John didn't write the Gospel of John. Does that mean there?

John Dehlin [00:20:17] And you can see why that's troubling to people, right?

Grant Palmer [00:20:19] You can, but, but, but you have two sources that are good. First you have Luke saying, look, I examined everything closely and the eyewitnesses, meaning the twelve apostles and others, a few others, they talked about this to the early Christian community and they, and, and Mark wrote down Peter's testimony, his memoirs. We should call Mark Peter's memoirs. Mark spoke Greek and he wrote up his gospel and Luke didn't like it. He says, I've read the Gospel of Luke or Mark and it's good, but it's not in an orderly way. Peter would tell the Corinthians or the Romans, he would tell them just incidents and apply it to the current situation. But it wasn't orderly. So Mark wrote up his gospel and then Luke wrote up his gospel and then Matthew wrote up his gospel. Now Matthew, he could read and write. He was a tax collector for Rome and he, and he, he wrote his in Aramaic, according to an early disciple named Papias. Papias didn't know the apostles, but he knew the disciples of the apostle. And he's writing around 65, 78, 65 AD and he clearly writes in his writings that Mark wrote these things down and they were circulated among the earliest Christians and Matthew wrote these things down. He was an apostle and they circulated among the early Christians. So there was written material early on, but they didn't write the finished four gospels. This came later. And whoever wrote Mark honored Mark for his what he had done earlier. And the same with Matthew and the same with Luke and the same with John. So the deniers that these, they're not representing things realistically. I don't think of how it happened. It makes it look like nothing was written down until these finished gospel writers, whoever they Were. They're unknown. Wrote. That is not the way we got the New Testament Gospels. When.

John Dehlin [00:22:47] When some express concern about the first vision, Joseph Smith's first vision, because it, it changes over time and becomes a little bit more fantastical. I've. I've maybe heard some express the same concern about the New Testament that if you line them up chronologically, the early, sort of, let's just say the early gospels, Jesus is just, you know, a really important prophet, a wise man, but that as the story advances in chronology to the gospel that's written last, then he's becoming the son of God and resurrected and those sorts of things. I'm sure you're familiar with those criticisms. Is that a fair expression of concern about the New Testament Gospels?

Grant Palmer [00:23:33] I don't think so.

John Dehlin [00:23:34] Have you heard that? Is that.

Grant Palmer [00:23:35] Oh, sure. Okay, sure. And it takes some time to explain that. And I don't think we have that time tonight. John, the Gospel of John, I don't even think. It wasn't written by John. It was written by some other. They honored John, but 93% of his gospel is different than the first three. Synoptics, they call them. Oh, I was going to say something else, but.

John Dehlin [00:24:01] But just in terms of the story, some say the story grows more fantastical with the chronology.

Grant Palmer [00:24:08] I don't.

John Dehlin [00:24:09] Is that fair to say?

Grant Palmer [00:24:10] No, I don't think it is fair to say. If you get into the trenches now. A better example of the first vision is Paul relates his vision three times to Felix and the different governors. And there are minor differences. Joseph Smith's first vision, they're whoppers. In fact, a lot of people here may not know or believe this, but the first visions of Joseph Smith and those three installments is one of the most problematic foundational stones of the entire Mormon religion. It is much more of a problem than most members or even critics are aware of. And I have a chapter on that in this book. And I don't think there's anywhere to go for the apologist after this. But they always come up with something. Right,

John Dehlin [00:25:07] but you're. But, but you see a solid case with the Bible and with the base narrative of Christianity where you see flaws with, with Mormonism, it's fair to say it's obvious.

Grant Palmer [00:25:24] Well, that's a pretty broad statement. Whoever wrote the book of Revelation, he's traded in the peace donkey of Jesus for a war horse. I don't like his chapters on war. And that's one reason it was one of the original people who canonize the New Testament did not Like Revelations, those were apocalyptic chapters. And that is a direct contradiction to what Jesus says. The end times apocalypse is in Matthew 25. And I think you have a problem in the New Testament just as you have a problem in the Old Testament. This. Go get them, destroy them. Initiate the carnage. God. When you understand how the Old Testament was put together, you can begin to understand besides that Jesus gives softer renditions of the flood. He doesn't say it's universal. He doesn't say God caused it. Same with Sodom and Gomorrah and the five cities of the plains. He doesn't say God was responsible for that instant urban renewal. He says they will be judged in the judgment which comes at the end of the world. He's not. He has softer interpretations of go into Canaan, children of Israel and kill everything that breathes. None of that. And Jesus encounters this kind of thing with lepers. That's why he hung out with them. How do you know the leper is a sinner? Because Deuteronomy says they've got leprosy. Jesus says, no Jesus disciples who sinned, this man or his parents, that he's born blind? Neither. He's not buying that Deuteronomic God and he's ruined the character of God. And that's how he got a violent reputation in the Bible, in my view. And I published that article two months ago in John Whitmer Journal. But it's one of these 20 chapters,

The Old Testament and Faith Today

John Dehlin [00:27:45] so. Yeah, and that's, that's a really important chapter in the book. You. There's a chapter on the Old Testament and how those who want to believe don't have to believe in a, in a nasty, retributive, sort of genocidal guy.

Grant Palmer [00:27:57] No. And see, in the Mormon Church, we never talk about how we, how the Old Testament came to be, nor do we talk about in detail how the New Testament came to be. And I think those are important.

John Dehlin [00:28:09] Yeah, you also talk. You also talk about the second coming in a chapter. And the gist I got from it is that it's not necessarily anytime soon. Is that a fair summary?

Grant Palmer [00:28:20] No. And that's probably the most controversial.

John Dehlin [00:28:24] No, it's not a fair summary or no, that's not what you said, or

Grant Palmer [00:28:27] no, I agree with what you just said. It is, but it is because I am taking Zechariah 12, 13 and 14 and applying real world events. And if you do that, there's about eight things that have to happen. And we're only into about number three of what Zachariah, Zechariah was a prophet and a priest in 485-20-bc and he they've been conquered by the Babylonians and he wants to give them hope. So he says, God has shown me the future. What's going to happen to the Jewish people, the Gentiles, right up to a golden age. And so I've taken that and run with it. And you'll have to see if I have done justice to what he's saying. I like to think I have, but it's a little more dicey for you.

John Dehlin [00:29:21] The we're not in the latter days necessarily.

Grant Palmer [00:29:24] No, it's not imminent. And people who say it is, they need to read Zachariah 12, 13 and 14.

John Dehlin [00:29:32] Okay, really quickly. A lot of people who struggle with, with Christianity just struggle with the need, number one, the need for an atonement that why is God holding us all responsible for sin, that we come sin quotes that we come by naturally anyway? And then why does he have to punish not only someone, but his own son as a way to sort of counterbalance and justify all the sin that we all come by naturally anyway? Why the need for an atonement at all? For you? What is the atonement? You have a chapter about this. What. What is the atonement for? For you? Why is it needed?

Grant Palmer [00:30:15] Well, this is getting into a little more complicated stuff, but let me just say that I do not find the. The theology that has been given for why we need an atonement very satisfying. And that includes, and they appeared in this order in Christian history, the substitution theory, the ransom theory, the satisfaction theory, which the Book of Mormon is quite high on. And then there are a very variety of moral theories. I don't like any of them. The first three are attached to a literal Garden of Eden. And there may have been a real Adam and Eve, but they're trying to answer it. Paul especially is trying to answer it because he believes in a literal Garden of Eden. I don't know that science, as we move along, is kind of moving away from that, but that's heresy to a Christian. But more important is if you look at the Garden of Eden and its choices, you begin to see that the paradise of Eden is remarkably similar to the City of God. And there you find very, very similar things going on. And the thought occurred to me, Is this a metaphor or figurative for the decision that all mankind had to make to come to mortality, or was there really a literal Garden of Eden? So I decided to explore, and I'm not saying there wasn't a Garden of Eden I'm just saying that whether there was or not, we still have the same problems, whether there was a Garden of Eden or not, which is we are not living spiritually in the city of God and we are going to die mortally. So I still see a need for an atonement. So I began to give in a question and answer format. Why? And boy, it's a little different than what you'd get from the substitution, ransom, satisfaction and moral theories. And it basically goes. The crux of it goes like this. This is hard. Jesus. The book of Hebrews says that Jesus learned by what he suffered. And one of the things he learned, I think, is that he suffered a lot in life, but it was in the cross and to some extent Gethsemane that he, He what he is where I think his judgment was perfected. God says in Isaiah 53:10, it is my will to crush him. And you think, why would a God do anything like that to his Son? Because Jesus is the representation in the express image of God the Father, and yet he requires this of his Son. And boy, that is an enigma. That is a problem. And I started thinking about that. And I think God allowed Jesus to experience the depth of sin and the problems of humanity because I think it would make him more forgiving. God is giving him the judgment. You judge him, you assign him to kingdom, you resurrect him. No CEO, CEO on this earth has that kind of infinite power. It's something that Jesus could not learn from a book. It's something that he experienced. And by descending below all things, Jesus became underline Christ. And the Father said to him, Jesus would never, ever forget that he couldn't. And so I think it has to do with making him a perfect judge. That's why I think he wanted him crushed with pain. Now, I may be wrong, but I always like to try to make it reasonable and logical. I don't believe that, like some religions, that spiritual truths are different from regular truths. I think you have an obligation to make it as logical and consistent as you possibly can, and then you make the leap of faith. And I don't know if this would satisfy the people in this room, but this is my answer to that question. So for you, I can't do it when you tie the atonement to a literal Garden of Eden and to the substitution theory.

John Dehlin [00:35:37] So it wasn't so much about allowing us to be forgiven for our sins. It was for Jesus's own personal development.

Grant Palmer [00:35:44] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:35:46] And.

Grant Palmer [00:35:46] And he's saying, I've been given all this power he goes to heaven. He says, mary, I've got to go to heaven. Jesus, when he comes back, he tells the apostles, all power has been given to me. I am the Christ.

John Dehlin [00:36:06] And for you, I'm guessing that's a bit of an enigma with your challenge of the Old Testament God. That is a cruel God, him doing that to his son. I'm guessing that remains an enigma for you.

Grant Palmer [00:36:17] And I deal with that. I didn't escape that.

John Dehlin [00:36:20] Okay.

Grant Palmer [00:36:20] And Abraham, you know, he got the ram in the thicket for his son Isaac. Jesus was the ram in the thicket. And the Old Testament is consistent in that. And that Isaiah 53:10 is. Hits the nail right on the head. It is my will, God's will, that you be crushed with pain. That's the. That's the Catholic Bible. I like their statement. But it's also in the NIV and the King James, but not quite as strong as that.

John Dehlin [00:36:57] So it's brutal. But the Old Testament prophesies it. So sort of must be.

Grant Palmer [00:37:02] Well, and that's what Peter. Peter doesn't get it. And Jesus says, you don't understand Peter. We've got to fulfill Scripture. And I think they did. They went out when Jesus, they filled scripture more than you think. They actually made an effort to fill Old Testament scripture. This was not something that was happenstance. When he rides that donkey in, they got that donkey because they knew that Micah talked about that.

John Dehlin [00:37:34] Got it shifting gears a tiny bit. There are many of us who feel like faith is kind of dead. God and Jesus just aren't really on the table. And. And that's it. It's kind of the secular worldview. But we're young and I'm just wondering if proximity to the end of this mortal life incense a belief in Christ and if that's been something that has influenced you, knowing that you're closer maybe to the end than the beginning.

Grant Palmer [00:38:11] No, it has not influenced me. But I would hope it would influence some of you young people. But I was going to say something else. What was it?

John Dehlin [00:38:23] So for you it's not. You wouldn't.

Grant Palmer [00:38:26] Secularism.

John Dehlin [00:38:27] Yeah.

Grant Palmer [00:38:28] This is the hardest question to ask of all. Why do I need a Jesus in my life? And that's a tough one. All I can say, and this comes under almost testimony, is I have found the four promises of Jesus made in John. My peace I give unto you. I will bring things to your remembrance. I will manifest myself in your life. And there's one more. I found that to be true in my life. Jesus is. Jesus never says That I know he never invited anyone to know who he was by some kind of spiritual feeling. Never does that. Now, there are a couple of examples where people felt this feeling, but he never uses that as an example or as a. As an approach to who he is. If you want to know, he says, you want to know who I am? Try this, make an experiment, do this and put this in your life. And then you will get the blessings that I'm promising you. That's the way he thinks. And I've. All I can say is that that has been true for me.

John Dehlin [00:39:39] Excellent. Okay. Well, the chapters on. On the Bible are very interesting, especially for those who are wanting to give Jesus in the Bible a second chance. We tried to touch on some of that. There's a whole second half of the book that's on LDS related issues and we're not going to have time tonight to dig into any of those. I will just say that there's a chapter on sources for the Book of Abraham and the Book of Mormon. You know, kind of where Joseph may have gotten some of the inspiration or the information for those books. There's a chapter on Joseph's changing view of God and how that changes over time. That's something I talked about with Jeremy in our interview and how you can't just look at the Book of Mormon and the changes to the Book of Mormon in isolation. But if you look at how Joseph's view of God changed and then you look at both the original Book of Mormon and the lectures on faith and then the changes to the Book of Mormon and then how Joseph's view on God changed into the Nauvoo time period, that's when a real understanding of sort of how changing and flexible that view was.

Grant Palmer [00:40:51] It's. It's a mess.

John Dehlin [00:40:53] Yeah, yeah. So there's a chapter on that you talk. You have a chapter on Moroni and the Golden Pot explanation.

Grant Palmer [00:41:01] More of that for those who want to know.

John Dehlin [00:41:03] Because that's been one of the, you know, observations or controversies is how much substance there is. There's a really good chapter on Joseph Smith, Captain Kidd and Cumorah and Moroni. Those of you who know Joseph Smith was reading about Captain Kidd, most likely. And in that, in that book it mentions a Cumorah and a Moroni and there's good stuff on William and Jane Law and sexual allegations against Joseph Smith. There's a chapter on thoughts about what anti Mormon is and isn't. I was just gonna, I'm just gonna share a quote. What is deemed anti Mormon to One generation may be sound scholarship to a later generation. You guys like that verse? Does that come true?

Grant Palmer [00:41:47] Very much.

John Dehlin [00:41:48] I like that. What I do want to what I do want to get on record, if you're comfortable sharing it. And this may be repetitive for many of you, but probably the most request question that I received from our listeners was for you to tell the story of this sort of famous general authority or anonymous general authority that you had some discussions with. And would you mind retelling that and giving us any updates that you're comfortable doing? Because I don't know that that's there's an audio record of you telling that story.

Conversations with General Authorities

Grant Palmer [00:42:23] Well, I cannot vouch for what he told me. I believe he sincerely believes that. If I've put this in my new book and I've added, we've met maybe eight times. In fact, he was in my home last Wednesday night.

John Dehlin [00:42:39] And how did he first reach out to you?

Grant Palmer [00:42:42] A mission president wanted to meet with me. And, and then two days later he called up and he says, there's a general authority would like to come with me.

John Dehlin [00:42:52] And this is a emeritus general authority?

Grant Palmer [00:42:55] He is now, yes.

John Dehlin [00:42:56] Okay. Was he when he first met with you, Is he still emeritus?

Grant Palmer [00:42:59] I.

John Dehlin [00:43:00] Not sure. Okay.

Grant Palmer [00:43:02] This man has done everything. He, he was around when there was one quorum of 70, when the quorum of 12 and the one quorum of 70 would go out and they were more intimate and share things and this kind of thing and. But anyway, I'm getting ahead of myself. So I, I asked the general authority, where'd you get my book? And he says, on, on the Internet. And I says to the mission president, where'd you get yours? He says, from him. And they both told me they don't believe. The GA's wife doesn't believe. And so we started into a series of questions and he told me that the quorum of the 12, just the quorum of the 12 gets received a million dollars so that they pay off all our debts and, and not have to worry about each member.

John Dehlin [00:43:58] That's a million dollars.

Grant Palmer [00:43:59] In subsequent discussions, like I said, I had about eight with him in 20, 20, 12, 13 and 14, maybe one in 15. And he later told me, I said, where'd you get this information? He says, I got it from a security guard during the administration of Spencer W. Kimball. I says, a security guard? He said, oh, don't think of buildings. This is a security guard that guards personnel files and intellectual property. And he went through those files and then he said to me, he says, that's A long time ago. Maybe they make more than a million bucks now. I don't know. But he really believed that. I says, well, how do you know they don't believe? He says, well, they've never said as such that they don't believe, but it's the things.

John Dehlin [00:44:51] So wait, he made the assertion that. What? Before you explained that, what was the assertion he made about the belief of the, the members of the quorum?

Grant Palmer [00:45:02] Well, he said that I says, how do you know they don't believe? And he says, because I've been with him. This is a man that's been a temple president, a mission president, an area president. He says, just the way they act, they don't want to talk about the foundations of the church. They will not talk about truth issues. And I tried and they just won't go there. That told. It was a red flag to me. He says, the other is the way they act. They're not so spiritual when they're out on the campaign trail, so to speak. And then he says, he says every general authority, and this is every general authority gets their second anointings. That's kind of a guarantee for heaven. And he says even some of them got their second anointings and then they were called to be a 70 or an apostle. So I put the subsequent discussions into this new book title. He says he felt like a hypocrite. He says, I'm trapped. The mission president said, I'm trapped since we go every week, it's hell. And they asked me to do far sides and I, I try to give them something and. But the man is in hell.

John Dehlin [00:46:31] He feels trapped. Why?

Grant Palmer [00:46:34] Because if he should speak up and come clean that just say he's mentally ill or do something to compromise him, ruin his family, who knows, his own kids don't know. There's a lot of pressure at the top. Look, this is a hush, hush organization. I remember the mission president tell me, he says, you know, there was a 70 recently committed suicide. Did you hear about that?

John Dehlin [00:47:04] No.

Grant Palmer [00:47:05] And you never will. There's mission presidents who discover the truth and they come home and the church will say things like, well, we're going to say that you're sick to your missionaries and you are never to tell anyone the reason you came home. And they come home. So this is a very, you know, child molestations, they buy them off out of court. I mean, this is a very rich church with a, With a lot of secrecy. Secrecy of Mormon could be called secrecy. And I learned quite a bit of this from. And some of the things that the general authorities did, which I told the GI would not tell because the stories would identify him. And I've been true to that. But anyway they, it seemed to be a match both like because I could teach them history and they could tell me about the structure of the church. So it worked out pretty well.

John Dehlin [00:48:06] If someone were to say though that that's a stretch to say that they don't act spiritual and they won't answer hard questions, therefore they don't believe. I mean that's their prerogative.

Grant Palmer [00:48:23] But some of the stories he told me about President Thomas S. Monson make your hair curl.

John Dehlin [00:48:29] But you can't tell him.

Grant Palmer [00:48:30] But I can't tell him.

John Dehlin [00:48:31] Okay.

Grant Palmer [00:48:32] I said I wouldn't.

John Dehlin [00:48:33] Do you get a sense that this general authority will someday leave a record?

Grant Palmer [00:48:37] No. I offered to have put to tape him, to put him in my, my records at the special collections the University of Utah and put a 25 year time limit on it. And he said no.

John Dehlin [00:48:52] But you could still write down the stories and do that.

Grant Palmer [00:48:54] Well, you know, I guess I could. What would you advise?

John Dehlin [00:49:05] It would not be mine to advise you one way or the other. I mean honestly, it is something I know integrity is important to you.

Grant Palmer [00:49:15] So some of the stories he told me, if they're true, are hair raising.

John Dehlin [00:49:20] Yeah.

Grant Palmer [00:49:22] Really? I mean, hair raising.

John Dehlin [00:49:28] Okay. So as far as the future goes. So for anyone out there who is wanting to make a difference, a kind of a difference that you've made, what, what advice would you give to someone who wants to try and make an impact?

Grant Palmer [00:49:59] Well, I think they already are. That this couple over here, Zelf on the shelf, they're doing their thing. Jeremy Reynolds says he's going to keep.

John Dehlin [00:50:06] Should we give a shout out to the Zelphys?

Grant Palmer [00:50:13] Jeremy Reynolds says he's going to keep the legacy going. And look, there's going to be many, many, many more people come out of Mormonism long after I'm gone. And our books seem kind of old and it's kind of like I haven't heard of a lot of new musical artists. This is the same idea. You have to keep them. You have to keep the books coming out for the, for the next generation and for, for those who are ready to, to listen and hear. So there. Yes, do what you need to do to, to that you think is right to keep this legacy alive. Because I think it's important.

John Dehlin [00:51:03] What name the legacy? What is the legacy that we're keeping alive?

Grant Palmer [00:51:08] Just the truth about Mormon history, about the Mormon Jesus. I don't I don't find he's worth saving. 1.

John Dehlin [00:51:20] One historian wrote he's not a faithful historian. And he wrote that actually harder to be a non believing historian than a believing one. And I think he think. I think he's saying in relation to the MHA Mormon History association, do you find it that it's more challenging in 2017 to be a successful historian when you're no longer believing? Have you found that?

Grant Palmer [00:51:51] I don't really have a strong answer on that. The Mormon History association has kind of become a travel club. A lot of Sunday school thrown in. I haven't gone there for several years, but I'm told this is the case. John Whitmer, still doing good stuff. Now there's a man who wrote a book. I was kind of harsh on him, but I think his book is sold well. Gosh, what was. He's not a Mormon yet. He wrote a book on Joseph Smith. I think it's done quite well.

John Dehlin [00:52:29] American Crucifixion.

Grant Palmer [00:52:30] Yeah, crucifixion.

John Dehlin [00:52:32] Alex Beam.

Grant Palmer [00:52:33] Yeah. You ask Alex Beam that, maybe he'll know.

John Dehlin [00:52:36] Okay.

Grant Palmer [00:52:37] How he feels.

John Dehlin [00:52:40] Where do you, where do you see the church going in 20 to 30 years? Do you have any prophecy?

Grant Palmer [00:52:47] I ask everyone that question and of course nobody knows. I think it's going to continue to degrade. They're doubling down right now. I think the vitality is not what it once was. You know, James Talmage wrote a book in 1915 called the Vitality of Mormonism. I think they're losing the vitality of Mormonism. And maybe it's just me who've become jaundiced and haven't gone to church for a while. But I try to keep my fingers in the pie enough to know that I think they won't do much about it until there's a real tipping point. And there will be a tipping point in the Utah Salt Lake area. And when that comes, whoever's in charge is going to have to make a decision whether we're going to be truthful and let the chips fall like the community of Christ has, or then decide to be a. An irrelevant, largely an irrelevant religion. Because like I said in Sunstone, Richard Bushman says we cannot. The church cannot keep teaching the same narrative. They cannot sustain the same narrative as they have in the past. And yet they're trying to do it. And it'll work in paragraph Paraguay. But they don't have the Internet. And the world will get the Internet. And in time, even I get all kinds of emails from Brazil and Chile And Colombia, all over Japan more than I used to. And I think if they're going to keep preaching the same narrative that it. And the same narrative is kind of like guess what folks, the earth is flat. When more and more people finding out it's round and they're getting some real credibility and there are more and more missionaries are coming home and they've talked to guys like us and guys and gals like us. That's what I meant to say. And they're coming home and they are looking things up. I had a mission president tell me that he had to interview all 212 of his missionaries. He was a mission president here. He's an atheist by the way. Three time mission president. You just couldn't turn down Elder Holland. And he's more afraid of his wife than he is the truth. And he tells me, I go to lunch with him every couple of months and he tells me that a number of those missionaries are going to go home and they're going to look into things because of what people have said to them on Temple Square. And so the church did a very good thing in getting 18, 19 year olds to go. But the problem is when they come home now, that's when they're confronting it. So what's going to happen in the future? I don't know but I don't, I don't think it's going to be a robust religion any longer. It's, it's in a sense of degrading in Europe and in Great Britain and in some parts of Asia. Japan is wow. And they are growing in Ghana. But someone said it took a hundred and tithe 100 tithe pairs for people like us in Ghana to make up for one of your tithing. So that's not looking good financially. That's why they're into the investment business. I think.

John Dehlin [00:56:31] I once had the chance to, well twice had the chance to meet with an apostle and it was, I said I'm not going to embarrass, you know, my brother who, who made the meeting but I do want to ask a question, but I gave myself a rule for the question which was what's, what's a recommendation I could make to the church that that wouldn't harm the church, that would still allow it to remain robust to retain the tithing, to retain the membership. Do you have any recommendations you could make to the church that wouldn't weaken the church?

What Church Leaders Should Do and Final Reflections

Grant Palmer [00:57:08] Well, I'm kind of old fashioned. I just think they had to repent and come clean, clean out the Whole closet do what the rlds church has done.

John Dehlin [00:57:16] But what if that they have harms the church?

Grant Palmer [00:57:19] It did harm the church, but now the bleeding has stopped and they're starting to grow and they put Jesus Christ first. And anything that's problematic in the background, to me that's the answer. They're not going to do it because of the money and the influence. But long term they'll get to the point where they might have to make that decision. They might as well do it now instead of 25 years from now. But there's. I don't think there's much question that they're going to degrade.

John Dehlin [00:57:50] So you're saying do what is right. Let the consequences.

Grant Palmer [00:57:52] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:57:53] Okay.

Grant Palmer [00:57:54] It's their own stuff. Repent, do what is right. Let the consequence follows and they're too prideful to do it. They need a burst of integrity and they don't have it yet.

John Dehlin [00:58:09] Well, we'll keep working on that.

Grant Palmer [00:58:11] Well, yes, and that's part of the legacy to get them to do it because they're not going to do it on their own. They're going to be pushed and shoved. They're going to have to have a Gorbachev moment when he realized that Russia was becoming a third world. And then he started saying, I think we better come clean and deal with this. We might have a XKJB in the general authorities who will become president and do something about it. That's my hope.

John Dehlin [00:58:45] And you, you. This is one of the biggest, most common questions I get. Do you think the apostles in the first presidency believe the church is true or do you think they don't?

Grant Palmer [00:58:54] I think it's everywhere in between. But they don't have the time, nor would they. Would you look if you were one of them, Would you look at beneath the veneer? Yeah, maybe you. Yeah, you would,

John Dehlin [00:59:11] but I'm not.

Grant Palmer [00:59:12] But remember, as my GA says, they only put people in at that level that are church broke. That's his word.

John Dehlin [00:59:21] What do you mean by that?

Grant Palmer [00:59:22] It means they'll do it whatever they're told to do and that's who they want.

John Dehlin [00:59:26] Like a horse is broke.

Grant Palmer [00:59:27] Yes. And then they've got their second anointings and then they got all that money and so he doesn't think any of them will ever come out. But we might get a Gorbachev who comes up through the ranks and becomes president and realizes, gee, this church is not what it could be or should be or once was. And when that happens, there might be a burst of integrity that's what I hope for.

John Dehlin [00:59:55] What can you tell us about what it's like to be sort of staring the end of your mortality kind of square in the face?

Grant Palmer [01:00:03] I'm comfortable with it. You know, you can say, why me? And then you can say, why not me? I've had three surgeries, pretty serious surgeries in 15 years. And I wouldn't want to go around and get in line again for another one. And they've ruled out surgery on me. It's metastasized, and they've ruled out radiation. So it comes down to chemo. And I'm finding out everyone has a recipe for how to cure cancer. Cancer. Everything you can imagine. And maybe they're right, maybe they're wrong. I don't know. But, no, I don't. I'm sure before it's over, I'll feel the full gamut of emotions, especially when I talk to my children at the end, the last time. But, no, I don't. I just. As it comes, I'll accept it.

John Dehlin [01:01:09] So right now, not a lot of sadness or fear.

Grant Palmer [01:01:12] No, no, no. No fear. I'm sure there'll be a little sadness. I can't help it. And we'll see when it gets really bad. I says to the doctor, I says, can you control this pain? He says, yes. Okay. That's. I'm okay. I'm okay with that.

John Dehlin [01:01:35] Do you think your void of fear is your testimony and your confidence that there is an afterlife and that it's just a transition?

Grant Palmer [01:01:46] Yes. But it's just something. Part of me that just thinks that I'm going on. I. I just. I can't articulate in every way or form, it just seems to be the way it is. And maybe that's my bias in growing up. Who knows? But, no, I don't have any fear. I hope I don't. I mean, it's not over yet, is it? By the way, I'm doing better than I thought. I probably ought to say this. I had two thirds of my stomach removed over Christmas, and I was left pretty weak, as my wife can tell you. And I didn't know when the new cancer was going to start affecting me, but there's been a little window of healing. That's why I'm as strong as I am right now. I've had about three weeks of being as strong as I am because I wasn't this way three weeks ago, was I? And so I'm grateful for that. But once you start the therapy, you know, you're in the. In it Again. And that starts March 1st. But I'm grateful for this little window of time. So if you wonder why, I think John said I had weeks to live. No, that was not ever the case. But it is months. And if the therapy works, which is a 30% chance it will, then maybe a year. Okay. So it's a fast growing. I looked at the chart. It looks like a. Like a galaxy is so bright and hot. Not good.

John Dehlin [01:03:21] Well, I'm super happy to have been wrong about that.

Grant Palmer [01:03:26] Me too.

John Dehlin [01:03:27] And we'll take you for as long as we can have you.

Grant Palmer [01:03:29] I take it a day at a time. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:31] Things were sketchy when we first talked, so.

Grant Palmer [01:03:34] Yes. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:35] So I'm glad the prognosis is better. I certainly wasn't going to wait around, I'll tell you that. You're going to have family that never really get to know a lot of these things you're telling us until they watch this video later. Honestly.

Grant Palmer [01:03:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:58] What would you say to any family member that sort of has some final thoughts? Is there anything you'd want to say? Because I can guarantee you, whether it's children or grandchildren, this will be the way that they come to know you. And I'm wondering if you would have any words for them.

Grant Palmer [01:04:17] Well, I was gratified to learn that a couple of my relatives, I'm not going to say anymore, came to me in January and said, we've been studying this and we know it's not true. And we were told you were deceived. And it turns out that our parents were deceived or our grandparents. You know, I'm not going to get any closer than that. And that was quite gratifying to see them see that they. They were happy to figure this out before I moved on and. But I've already told Rhett what to tell them when they come around. Tell them I've already forgiven them. I've been there. I know how stubborn you can be when you're a total believer.

John Dehlin [01:05:06] And forgiving them for what?

Grant Palmer [01:05:09] For. For not reading anything, for not taking a look. And I'm so confident about that. The evidence is so overwhelming there. There's no other way to go. I mean, I. I even told my parents they were dyed in the heart, dyed in the wool. They were temple supervisors and just. My mother had been a Stake Relief Society president for nine years. My father's in a bishopric, lived across the street and three houses down from Bruce. The Millie McConkie. They were socially friends. They knew Joseph Finley Smith, so on. They're just solid I had to finally tell him. I says, I found out about the church and Joseph Smith in this life and you will find out in the next. That's how confident I am.

Grant Palmer's Current Testimony and Beliefs

John Dehlin [01:06:00] The way that we like to always end our Mormon stories interviews is with asking what your what, what do you believe, what your testimony is now. And so as we're, as we're winding to the close of this part of tonight, I've really enjoyed the interview. There's so much more that we couldn't cover. But what I'd really love to do is end with your testimony and take as much as you want. And it doesn't have to be a religious testimony, although if that's an important thing to you, then please include that. But also please just include wisdom, life, philosophy, what, what you would want, let's just say your eulogy. What would you want to be said about what was important to you and what, what you stood for and what you believe?

Grant Palmer [01:06:50] Well, I stood up for what I believed. I made a difference. I have a relationship with Jesus Christ and he has not disappointed me. I can say that's as close as I'll get to testimony. I hope the legacy keeps going. I think it's really important. There's going to come a time when old timers know all the history and gee, there's nothing new here. I've tried to put a few articles in this new book that are new, such as Joseph Smith believed in concubine age before he went into polygamy. I don't think many people understand that. And what's concubine? A wife for the night. I had a prayer that you should sleep with me. Do you consent? Yes. Well, let's go. That's how it started out. Then later it morphed into this ceremony and part of exaltation and witnesses and ritual and all of the above. That's a new ripple for most people and it's in this book. This Council of 50 stuff is new now that we have the actual minutes. I have a chapter in the book on did Joseph Smith commit treason in 1844 by establishing the Council of 50 and all that. And boy, I can't understand and neither can Michael Marquardt why they published that book on the council 50 minutes because it's dynamite. It is just hair raising stuff and most LDS people don't know a thing about that. And it is more insight into the Mormon God and it comes back to Third Nephi about how if the Gentiles don't repent, they're going to get Swept off the land by the Indians and Joseph Smith is leading them as their king and God. Wow. And they actually have plans and put them into operation to do this. They don't think much of the Constitution like they do down in Provo on the fourth of July parade. But the legacy must go on and there will be new people who will need to see new books and new topics. So keep doing what you're doing and you keep doing what you're doing. Jeremy and self on the shelf and keep it going. That would be my hope.

John Dehlin [01:09:20] And what do you believe?

Grant Palmer [01:09:22] What do I believe?

John Dehlin [01:09:24] Give us your testimony Again, not just religious, but that's fine. Just about character, life, what you, what you believe you stand for and what you want to leave as well.

Grant Palmer [01:09:37] Just be your true self. Don't be so afraid. When you get to my point, you don't care what people think. You just because you're going, what do I believe? I. I believe in being honest with yourself. And I think when you're honest with yourself and you don't try to, it's more likely that your friends and relatives will notice that than if you try to hide and go around curves and not say anything. Because where you can speak up, speak up where you can't and it's too costly. Don't. That's my philosophy. But we need to speak up where we can. And I just hope you will. Don't be a coward. There's plenty of cowards running around. Just, just try to be honest. Be yourself. And if you are, I think people will respect you. I got the nicest, the nicest letter from Ron Prittis signature books and he says you have, you've been true to what you believe and we admire that in you. You haven't changed. You haven't, you know, if you like Jesus, you kept saying that we admire that in you. That's pretty good for a group of agnostics down there.

John Dehlin [01:11:03] And do you want to give a religious testimony?

Grant Palmer [01:11:06] Well, the only thing I would say is that I have a relationship with Jesus Christ and he hasn't disappointed me. That's all I can say. I, I believe what he said and it's come true in my life and I'm hanging on to that. I feel the need. I think he's made my life richer for people say I don't need him. I would say you're missing some things and he can be in your life and he can guide you and direct you where you should go. At least I feel him with me and I don't have any apologetical qualms about that. It's just the way it is with me. That's enough.

John Dehlin [01:11:54] Anything you want to say to your wife and kids?

Grant Palmer [01:11:56] Yes. I appreciate their support. I really, really do. It means a lot, and I'm happy that they're here tonight. Thank you for coming. Thank you for all of you coming.

Applause, Tributes, and Closing Words for Grant Palmer

John Dehlin [01:12:10] All right, should we give Grant a round of applause? I'll stand for that. Now, for those of you who may be tempted to go, For those who may be tempted to go, we are gonna have a special treat really quick. So don't bail yet if you want a special treat. My dear friend Tyler Glenn, who has been an incredible friend and support through the past several months and more, has agreed to sing for us tonight. So we're going to invite we're going to invite Tyler up now and he's going to share a song with us before the little concluding remarks. And then Tyler's going to finish with another song. Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org music for this episode was provided by the Lower Lights and other sources.

Grant Palmer [01:13:33] Cease to make me whole when with a wounded heart, anger or malice I draw my myself apart Searching my soul.

Part 3 of 3 · Ep. 699

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the Donate button on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support.

Tyler Glenn [00:00:36] The kindly light amid encircling gloom

Guest [00:00:43] Lead

Tyler Glenn [00:00:43] thou me on the night is dark and I am far from home.

Rick [00:00:53] My dear friend Tyler Glenn, who has been an incredible friend and support through the past several months and more, has agreed to sing for us tonight. So we're going to invite, we're going to invite Tyler up now and he's going to share a song with us before the little concluding remarks and then Tyler's going to finish with another song. So yeah, this is, this is my dear friend Tyler Glenn, lead singer of Neon Trees and Super cool guy. So Tyler Glenn everybody.

Live Musical Performance in Honor of Grant Palmer

Tyler Glenn [00:01:36] I I wanted to play a song that I wrote during my faith crisis last year and I want to firstly thank you sir. Yours and a handful of others were there to your stories were there to catch me when I was following and I've just been hearing you talk back there and it's just remarkable. So I'm honored to sing. I hope that I can play Wealthy.

Tyler Glenn [00:02:22] Faith. Please have a little in me Hey I know you hate it when I stray But I tried everything I drank the wine and stained the sheets I'm clumsy when I speak

Tyler Glenn [00:02:42] call

Tyler Glenn [00:02:45] you never

Tyler Glenn [00:02:46] call me anymore

Tyler Glenn [00:02:50] we're past the point of self control I'm giving back to you things I thought were true I know it's really nothing new God, where the hell are you hiding? My hands are in the air and I'm excited I've been on the run so I'm not coming Sunday it's alright I'll probably talk to you at midnight God, I could never be like you can't change I can't change and I

Tyler Glenn [00:03:29] don't want to I've been on the run so I'm not coming Sunday it's all right I'll probably talk to you at midnight.

Tyler Glenn [00:03:51] It was fear, that's what it was

Tyler Glenn [00:03:55] Just to be clear

Tyler Glenn [00:03:59] you went and made everything weird but that's another song, another night a shot of Rome but guess what Done is done and what's

Tyler Glenn [00:04:11] right I fought and stumbled towards the lie

Tyler Glenn [00:04:18] I miss the days and nights we wrestled in my bedroom My knees will give out soon I know it's really nothing new

Tyler Glenn [00:04:30] but God, where the hell are you hiding? My hands are in the air it's so exciting. I've been on the run so. So I'm not coming Sunday it's all

Tyler Glenn [00:04:46] right I'll probably talk to you at

Tyler Glenn [00:04:49] midnight God, I can never be like you I can't change I can't change I don't want to I've been on the run so I'm not coming Sunday it's all right I'll probably talk to Midnight. I probably talk to you at midnight.

Tyler Glenn [00:05:29] God, where the hell are you hiding? My hands are in the air and I'm excited I've been on the run so I'm not coming someday it's all right I'll probably talk to you at midnight.

Tyler Glenn [00:05:56] Thanks.

Rick [00:06:14] It's Tyler Glenn, everybody. Thank you, Tyler. And we have one more. One more for the end. All right, well, this can get really unwieldy really quick, and you've all been here for quite some time. But let's just say for those few of you who feel really moved by whatever spirit you may get moved by, please just take a few of you take a minute to express to Grant what he's meant to you. Is that all right? The floor is now yours. And here's the mic. All right. Please keep them brief.

Guest 2 [00:06:52] I love you, Grant Palmer. You're a friend, even though you kept me waiting eight hours. And your excommunication or your disciplinary council and then ran off and we became friends because of that. But you, as I said the other day, brought me back from the edge of unbelief to a semblance of belief, which is a lot to me. So thank you.

Guest 3 [00:07:27] Just like when 911 happened, or when President Reagan was shot. We remember exactly where we were when we read Grant Palmer's book.

Guest 4 [00:07:53] All of us would like to somehow come up with the words to tell you what you've meant to us and to thank you for all you've done. And I was telling your daughter in law and she asked me to share with you that an old song that maybe only someone of our age could remember said, How can we thank you? What do you want? What can we do to give to you back what you've given us? And one of the things that you've given me is a path to the savior that I missed during my years in Mormonism. And I cannot tell you how much that has changed how I feel about this new place in My life. But it says, quickly, if you wanted the moon, I would try to make a start. But I would rather that we could give you our hearts. To Mr. Palmer, with love.

Guest 5 [00:09:16] Fifteen months ago, I read the CES letter. So thank you, Jeremy. And, you know, immediately knew that the church wasn't true. But I went into an intensive period of making sure that I hadn't been deceived by Jeremy. And I read the, you know, no man knows my history. And I read your. Your insider's view of Mormon. Of Mormon, yeah. Origins. Sorry. And I thank you. And I watched your Aha Moments video and they were. They became my Aha Moments. And I wanted to. I just wanted to thank you. And you know, you remind me a lot of my father in law who had been out of the church for many years, Richard Leighton. And he was a gentle man, a sweet man, and he tried to tell us that the church wasn't true, but he did it in such a soft spoken way that we didn't listen to him. And I never got a chance to thank him for his example and what he did. Now he stood up for it. And so I want to thank you for standing up for what's right and what you've done. So thank you,

Guest [00:10:39] Grant. I think all of us would probably say one of the hardest things, in my case, the hardest thing I've ever gone through in my life was when those seeds of doubt got really strong and I started to really say, is there a chance that what I believe is not true? The whole earth shook underneath me. And as I thought about the implications of that and as I studied more, I thought, this is such a big decision. There is so much writing on this. What if I get this wrong? What if I get this wrong? I saw two different counselors numerous times, and, you know, at the end of the day, they couldn't help me. And I don't think anything helped me come to peace with my decision that I was doing the right thing personally for me and for my family and those I love. Nothing helped me more than your book. I'm on my fourth time. My wife will tell you I read a little bit every night just before I go to bed. I'm on my fourth time through it. It's not that I expect to find many things I haven't read, although I do find new things. But I thank you from the bottom of my heart because that was such a difficult experience for me and you helped me be at peace with my decision and to know that the decision I had made was the right. 1. And I can't thank you enough for that, so thank.

Tyler Glenn [00:12:22] You.

Guest 6 [00:12:31] So, Grant, I just want to acknowledge in you some characteristics that you have that are really inspiring. First of all, the characteristic of curiosity to learn and find out and investigate to the degree that you have,

Guest [00:12:51] your

Guest 6 [00:12:51] capability to write and communicate what you found, and probably mostly the courage that it took to do that. And behind all of that is the love that you have for all of humanity. So thank you,

Guest 5 [00:13:20] Grant.

Guest 7 [00:13:20] I'm one of the lesser known people in this room. Probably 90% of you have no idea who I am.

Guest 8 [00:13:25] But

Guest 7 [00:13:28] when you were mentioning the advice that you'd give, you mentioned that you want the rising generation to continue to be a voice and to continue to write and to continue to help. And my transition out of Mormonism was the most painful thing I've ever been through. But your book helped me to realize that it was real, the transition and the truth about church history. But it gave me hope and it gave me something. It gave me a feeling that life gets better. And life certainly does get better. So I'd just like to thank you personally for your integrity and how it's changed my life and saved my life in many ways. And I will definitely take your charge. Even though I don't have a voice right now. I want to, and I want to help so many people that have gone through what I've gone through, and it's never been more important than now. Thank you, Grant. We all love you so very much.

Guest 9 [00:14:57] You were very scary to me. I had a chance to apologize to Sandra Tanner, too, because in my generation, you never said the name Sandra or Gerald Tanner. And if you even looked at anything like that, it was just. I can't even explain. You'd have to be me, I guess, and go through all of that. And as my husband and I were starting to figure some things out, it began with the question, what if the brethren are not right? And that's how it started for us. And someone said, I needed to order your book. When it came, Grant, it was. I looked at it and I. I felt terror. I was afraid. And I walked in the bedroom and I put it on the bed, and I looked at it, and I kept saying to myself, what am I doing? What am I doing? And I set it there. And then my daughter came to visit for a little while. And then I looked back for the book, and it was gone. My daughter had taken it home to read it. Well, then that opened up a whole can of worms that I've done this terrible thing. To my daughter now. And these are all the things that I don't know if any of you have gone through any of these things, but those are the things I went through. But she came back and she told us about the book and how wonderful the book was and how much it helped her. And we started to read the book and some of our best conversations came out of your book, Grant, with my husband and I. And I thank you for that. And I thank you for the fact that was the beginning of me thinking on my own, giving myself permission and respecting my inner voice. And it's. It's just gone from there. And there are people that have come into our lives that have done that. But I thank you for that, Grant. Thank you very much. And I thank you too, because I know this had to be hard for you too. And you kids and stuff. We just want you to know that there's a whole bunch of people that appreciate everything that you guys did.

John Dehlin [00:17:25] So the spirit told me to come up here. So I get emails often at 3 o' clock in the morning from folks who read the CES letter. For example, you were my 3 o' clock in the morning with that book. It just completely changed.

Rick [00:17:47] I get three.

John Dehlin [00:17:48] Did everybody hear that? So, yeah, I get emails at 3 o' clock in the morning and people when they're done reading, and I was done reading early in the morning and I just remember my mind was racing and there was a lot of questions. So you really changed my life in a lot of ways. I stand on your shoulders. We all stand on your shoulders. You've done. You've done so much. You've created a legacy that you can and should be proud of. So we're grateful for you, Grant. We love you and appreciate you and thank you.

Guest 10 [00:18:45] So I don't know if you know this, but 15 years ago, when Rhett, my husband, his son, asked me to read the insider book with him, I wasn't very happy to be reading an anti Mormon book because I was very active and believing. And after reading the book, I thought it was pretty amazing that you could put in everything you see and all the facts that you found in a way that didn't come across as all knowing and anti Mormon in the least. And so it allowed me the room to really consider what you had written and take it on. And we have been much better leaving because of your book. So thank you very much. And I think when he talks about family and the love that we have, despite all the different beliefs, he is at the crux of that because at his Christian heart he is very loving and he wants his family to be together. So as the Christian that he is, he is the crux of the love of our family. I have discussed atheism with him at length and he is very understanding and loving towards me. I never feel threatened when we have discussions of different beliefs and I really appreciate that and hope to pass that down to our kids also. So thank you, Grant. I love you,

Guest 11 [00:20:07] Grant. I am so grateful too for what your book did for me. When I thought I was going crazy, helped me to see that I wasn't. But I want to mention a little something about my daughter in law who was thought her world had fallen in when her husband had told her about his doubts and he went to the Bishop and the bishop showed up that night and took both their recommends and she was totally believing and she was devastated and she started to question and read your book and she needed someone to reach out to and she reached out to Grant through an email or letter and he instantly wrote back and offered comfort and wisdom. And it touched her heart so much that someone who didn't know her from Adam would care enough to write back and continue a little dialogue with her to help her get through that time when she was brokenhearted. And so I want to thank you too for being such a wonderful Christian in the way you live your life. Also thank you.

Guest 12 [00:21:25] When I first started finding out some things that wrecked my world, your book was one of the first books I bought. And then I found you on. You were having some kind of lunch with probably, I think There were about 15 people. It was the first event that I ever went to when I was wondering what my life was going to be. And I brought my husband who still thought I was messed up and going down the wrong trail. And I am so thankful that you were not scary and you were sane and safe and gentle and inclusive. And I will always remember that lunch

Guest 9 [00:22:05] we had with you.

Guest 12 [00:22:06] Thank you so much.

Guest 3 [00:22:26] I just don't cry. Many years ago, two dumb young kids decided the emperor didn't have any clothes on. And we spent the rest of our lives trying to prove to everybody that that was the case. And I always kind of felt like people joke about the cows in Wyoming that if the wind ever quit blowing they'd all fall over. So here we were all these years standing against the wind and it's kind of lonely out there. One of the problems we faced in reaching the community. We didn't have an adult experience in Mormonism. We left at the time we got married. And in that sense, although we went through pain, we went through struggle, we went through our problems with our families, it was not the pain of someone who's given their whole heart and life to the system like Grant has done, and then have the courage to stand up and say, the facts are, are different than I thought. And I want you all to know what I've discovered. And so I just really respect Grant for having the courage at that point in his life to take that stand. I realize how hard that would be, and I honor him tonight for that, for taking that stand. Grant's book is one of the go to books at the store. People that come in, they start with Grant because when they see that he was in ces, it's not so scary that they know he experienced it and committed himself in true devotion to Mormonism all those years. And for him to take a second look is opening a door for others to say, this man has credibility. He is someone that I can trust to read that he'll be honest with me. And so I thank you so much for your book. And like I say, it's one of our go to first introduction books for people coming. And I applaud you for your courage of standing for truth and also for your standing for Christ. Thank you,

Grant Palmer [00:25:12] Grant. I could thank you on many different levels, but tonight I just want to thank you for taking care of my mom and thanks for being her best friend these past, what, 24, 25 years. And thanks for. Thanks for treating me like one of your own sons. I do appreciate that. And you know, you. I've said it before, maybe not directly to you, but you will definitely be missed, but never forgotten. So thank you for all that you've done for us and our family.

Guest 8 [00:26:07] I'm so grateful that I came up here tonight. It's been a long time since I've seen you. A long, strange trip. The last 20, 25 years, we were both working on our books roughly the same time. Brent Metcalf and I working on our books at the same time, and you working on yours. We had so many historic conversations in the signature book's office. I remember standing there talking to Grant about his book when he was working on it and what he had found and giving us the details. Anyway, I'm just so grateful to you, Grant, for your life and for your work. And I wanted to be here tonight to tell you how much I love

Grant Palmer [00:26:49] you

Guest 8 [00:26:52] and how much I honor your journey and how important it is for us to honor each other's journeys. Your Courage and your honesty in confronting the information and the problems and the contradictions and the. The untruths and the truths and sifting the untruths from the truths and the way you've gone about it. And even though you and I agree on many things and disagree on many other things and would interpret Joseph Smith and the first vision and the Mormon Christ differently, I honor your interpretations. And it was so beautiful to listen to you express your knowledge and your research. Tonight, as I sat there and listened to you, I was really struck by the power and the truth and the integrity in your words. And I was very, very moved. And yet again came away feeling a great admiration for you, for your work and your life and your intellect. I love what you said about

Guest 3 [00:28:04] what

Guest 8 [00:28:05] a colossal waste it would be if our personalities don't continue. I'm with you, brother. We continue. And I'm grateful that yours will continue. There's a whole universe, universe of experience and knowledge and sacrifice in your work, and I'm in awe of what you shared with us tonight. I'm very, very grateful for your life. I'm grateful to have walked part of this path with you these last 25 years and look forward to heaven being a place where we can finally sit down and talk to Joseph Smith and ask him those questions that we'd like answered. It'll be a long line. It'll be a great conversation. Godspeed to you, brother.

Rick [00:29:06] All right, anyone else dying? Going once, going twice. What's that? Dying to get up and talk. Bad joke, Lance. All right, well, Grant, you're loved. And there's so many more people who have expressed their love to you. There are a few videos that people have recorded. There's one by Dan Vogel. There are a couple other very, very sweet videos that have been recorded. We're going to share those with you. We're not going to take the time to do that tonight because you can watch them later. We also assembled. We received many, many, many emails and comments honoring you. Lots and lots of paper here full of people expressing their love and gratitude to you. This was pulled together by Amy Grubbs, who helps us out at the Open Stories foundation as director of operations, and also Lisa, who, who's been really important to us. But we just wanted to give you this. And in any moment where you're feeling a little bit down or low or not so well or even nostalgic, we hope you'll. We hope you'll enjoy reading through just the hundreds and hundreds of people out there who are just so grateful for your contribution. So we're going to leave you with that and we're going to tell you we again, love and honor you and you deserve all the respect and adoration that's been offered today, plus much, much more. So if you guys don't mind, would you mind standing and joining me with a final thank you to Grant Palmer for all he's done for.

Tyler Glenn [00:31:15] It.

Rick [00:31:43] And I'm going to hold you to the months, not weeks.

Guest 11 [00:31:45] All right.

Rick [00:31:47] We'll even take some years if we can get them. Thanks again and thanks to your family. Okay, so before you leave, I want to thank everyone who joined us through Facebook Live on the live stream. It was great to have you want to thank again Amy Grubs and Lisa and Shandy and the Open Stories foundation for making this possible. Everyone who supports the Open Stories foundation, this is a result of your support. So thank you. Thanks, all of you for coming tonight. It's been wonderful to have you. So many special people here. Can we give Rick and Holly another thank you for being such gracious hosts us? Thank you guys so much. We love you and are grateful. And before we end, I guess I want to just thank you for joining us on Mormon Stories. It's been a pleasure. Much more good things to come. And so we finish off this episode saying thanks. And we'd like to end with my dear friend Tyler sharing with us one closing song. Would you guys mind if we welcome back Tyler Glenn for a final song?

Tyler Glenn [00:33:07] Okay, let's see here.

Tyler Glenn [00:33:10] I don't think I've ever played this one live, so this is exciting.

Tyler Glenn [00:33:30] Sunday mornings make me nervous they don't feel like they used to feel My religion feels wrong But I can't tell my mom I'm afraid that my words would kill I think I still believe in Jesus He's a friend when I choose to pray but my demons get me high Till I'm burning all the time yeah they never wash my sins away away Singing I I I I'm singing hymns at the top of my lungs I, I, I I'm singing hymns at the top of my lungs I

Tyler Glenn [00:34:11] think the devil made me do it do it, baby I found myself when I lost my faith I found myself when I lost my faith I think the devil may be do it now I'm crazy I found myself when I lost my faith I found myself when I lost my faith yeah I did get. I did death.

Tyler Glenn [00:34:54] Sunday service got me anxious It's a reason why I was depressed I could see it on their face I did not deserve his grace so I skipped the holy sacrament I think I still believe in something But I couldn't pray

Tyler Glenn [00:35:13] the gay way so if I'm the wicked one I'm still my mama's son and you'll never take that love away Singing I, I, I I'm singing hymns at the top of my lungs I, I, I, I sing my sins at the top of my lungs I think the devil made me do it do it, baby I found myself when I lost my faith I found myself when I lost my faith I think the devil made me do it Now I'm crazy I found myself when I lost my faith I found myself when I lost my faith yeah, I found myself when I lost my faith

Tyler Glenn [00:36:16] I found

Tyler Glenn [00:36:16] myself when I lost my faith

Tyler Glenn [00:36:23] thank

Tyler Glenn [00:36:23] you,

Rick [00:36:34] Tyler Glenn, everybody. Check out his album excommunication. Thank you for coming.

Guest 5 [00:36:40] Thank you.

Rick [00:36:40] Grant Palmer. Thanks to his family. We love you guys. Thanks to the Aldens. Have a great night, everybody.

John Dehlin [00:36:52] Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org music for this episode was provided by the link Lower lights

Tyler Glenn [00:37:04] and other sources Cease to make me

Tyler Glenn [00:37:11] whole

Tyler Glenn [00:37:15] when with a wounded heart anger

Tyler Glenn [00:37:22] or malice

Tyler Glenn [00:37:26] I draw myself apart Searching my soul.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.