Introduction and Welcome

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 1000

Benji Schwimmer [00:00:00] Sa.

John Dehlin [00:00:36] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. And it's not just another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. This is the 1000th episode of Mormon Stories Podcast.

Benji Schwimmer [00:00:48] Yay.

John Dehlin [00:00:52] We are broadcasting to you live today in Redlands, California, at the dance studio home of the Schwimmer family. And they are dancing legends. Not just dance instructor legends, not just. And dancing legends, not just in California, but across the world. And we are here to re interview Benji Schwimmer, who hopefully many of you know who that is, but for those who don't, Benji is.

John Dehlin [00:01:27] He is the 13 time world swing dance champion. He's a choreographer, and he won season two of so youo Think youk Can Dance. And we interviewed him seven years ago on Mormon Stories Podcast. Probably the first kind of celebrity that I ever interviewed. I remember being super excited about getting Benji to do the interview.

John Dehlin [00:01:50] Um, and my family were huge fans of so youo Think youk Can Dance. And so we were excited about that. And, but. But a lot has happened since then. So we are here to talk about kind of what the. What the impact of the Mormon Stories interview was on his life.

John Dehlin [00:02:08] What his life has been like since his career, his faith. He did lose his faith in Mormonism and leave the church. We're gonna talk about that. And we're going to talk about what it's like to be a gay post Mormon man, or at least from his perspective. Seven years on. A lot of fun things to talk about. We are also going to include your. We have many of your questions already. From those of you who have submitted your questions. We'll be sharing your questions and comments. We also want to encourage our live listeners to share their comments and questions as well. Yeah, we would love to incorporate that.

John Dehlin [00:02:44] And I just want to personally thank Bill and Lynn Moore because this episode, this 1000th episode of Mormon Stories podcast is being brought to you today by Lynn and Bill Moore. And they. Bill's here running the audio and video. And Bill and Lynn were generous enough to sponsor the airfare and the hotel and some of the food.

John Dehlin [00:03:09] They're just super generous supporters of Mormon Stories Podcast. So a huge shout out to the Moore family in Houston, Texas, in Sugarland, Texas, actually, dear friends, not only of the Delins, but also of Sam Young. And so anyway, we're super excited. So without any further ado, Benji Schwimmer, welcome back to Mormon Stories Podcast.

Benji's Coming Out and Public Letter

Benji Schwimmer [00:03:32] Thank you so much, John. It is an honor to be here. I feel like we're having almost a bit of a Groundhog Day kind of experience. But it's wonderful to be here on your thousandth episode. And congratulations to you because I think that that is so fantastic and the work that you do is life changing, life affirming and it, it saves a lot of people. So I'm, I'm honored to be here and happy to be a part of this again.

John Dehlin [00:03:56] Okay. Well, my, it's our honor as well. So I thought it'd be cool to begin by giving those who didn't have a chance to. To watch original interview. We want to let them know, please go back and watch that. It's epic. It's amazing. It's definitely one of the top 10 episodes of all time out of. Out of a thousand. Check it out. But for those who we just want to give the Reader's Digest version.

Benji Schwimmer [00:04:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:23] Give us the seven minute version of what they would have heard in that interview.

Benji Schwimmer [00:04:27] A lot of crying, a lot of manic behavior. No. Yeah. So I had talked to John prior to that and I was going through a big time faith crisis and I actually used that Mormon stories to publicly come out. I had not come out publicly to anybody other than immediate family and, and a few close friends. And it was just my, it was the easiest way for me as a public figure in the Mormon Church after being on so youo Think youk Can Dance to, to say my piece without having to address people one on one. Um, but yeah, I was raised in the church to two parents.

Benji Schwimmer [00:05:00] One was not a member. The other one was, uh, we were their names. My, my mom Lori and my father Buddy. Um, my dad, Buddy Schwimmer. Yes, Buddy and Laurie Schwimmer. Uh, they're world renowned dancers. They've traveled the world. They used to kind of take me along as well along with my younger sister Lacey and my older cousin Heidi. We were kind of a five person family unit. We traveled the world and I learned how to dance and teach dance at a very early age. My parents and I, we, we grew up not really wealthy at the time. Dance was not as much of a popular mainstream thing as it is today.

Benji Schwimmer [00:05:34] And so we worked very hard to, to have what we had a lot of second hand store clothes and a lot of this, that and the other. But we did something that we loved. And so I was always surrounded by creative experiences. I was always surrounded by the need to work hard because we had to. And was raised in the church since forever. Since I was a fetus, I guess and true believing member of the church. I have extended family on my mother's side. That are very active temple workers. And so there's that experience. But on the flip side, the other half of my family were non practicing Jews, so there's that as well.

Benji Schwimmer [00:06:14] But lo and behold, as I was 10, 9 or 10, I forget the age that I was. But my father did get baptized and converted to the church later on after I'd already been baptized. And so it was a very interesting upbringing in terms of I had a lot of true blue believing, faith affirming members of my family and also ones that weren't. And for me, I was a true believing member of the church at a young age. I knew that I was gay, I was attracted to men and it was a church and the temptation that I was dealing with.

Benji Schwimmer [00:06:46] I was a full on believer in the sense that I believed in the premortal existence that I was. In fact, I chose this challenge and this temptation and this trial and that I had the strength and the abilities to overcome it with the atonement of Christ.

Benji Schwimmer [00:07:02] And I went through change therapy for about 12 years. I served a successful mission, which to this day is one of the greatest experiences of my entire life. And came back two months later, auditioned for so youo Think youk Can Dance and was casted on it.

Benji Schwimmer [00:07:17] Dealing with that I had been engaged to two different women. One I was Dear John on my mission. Hi. And the other I dated after I was on so youo Think youk Can Dance. And after a couple of tragedies and I had come out to her, she was the first person I ever told about my temptations.

Benji Schwimmer [00:07:33] Interestingly enough, we went to therapy together. It was a good experience. I thought that this was the person for me. And because of a life personal tragedy in her life, she told me at one point that she couldn't deal with it on the Kinsey scale. I'm not a direct six, meaning my sexuality is a little bit more fluid. And I believe most people's sexuality is relatively fluid anyways. But I was attracted to men and women and she felt like because of my traveling and with what I do for a living, that there would just be double the temptation. And she couldn't handle it. So it broke my heart and it kind of broke my spirit a little bit.

Benji Schwimmer [00:08:08] So I went through different options with change therapy and groups and this, that and the other. And we ended up. I ended up falling in love with a man through a relatively serendipitous kismet, if you want to call it miraculous experience.

Benji Schwimmer [00:08:24] And we fell hard, we were a couple, but we never did anything Sexual. It was a kissing only kind of relationship. We slept in the same bed and cuddled and this, that, and the other. But we went to church together. We read our scriptures together, we said our prayers together.

Benji Schwimmer [00:08:40] It was a very interesting experience. And shout out to John, he knows about this. And I told him I can say his name, which is interesting. So not John Dehlin, but a different John.

John Dehlin [00:08:48] Hi, John. It's great to have you joining us today.

Benji Schwimmer [00:08:51] Yeah. Yeah. Hi, Johnny. It was a very beautiful and confusing experience, and John wanted to leave. He wanted more. He wanted us to have a deeper kind of relationship in terms of our intimacy. And it was something that I felt like I was spiritually damning him, that I was the one tempting him or causing him to lose his faith. And I felt really guilty about it. And subsequently I had to end things with him. And it. It crushed me as much as it probably crushed him.

Benji Schwimmer [00:09:22] And so I went through an experience where I asked my. My spiritual leaders, my bishop, and my stake president to go through a disciplinary council, even though there were no lines that were so crossed where I really merited it. I just wanted kind of a fresh start. And so I went in front of the tribunal at a stake level and asked to be disfellowshipped so that I can kind of have my own prodigal journey and start back. And subsequently, during that time, there was the asterisk program that was implemented. So a couple of weeks before I was about to go back to the temple for the first time.

Benji Schwimmer [00:09:57] My stake president, nervously, who's also a psychiatrist, his hands were shaking and he said, you know, Benji, his countenance changed in this interview. He's like, I had to call you in there because I had to let you know that because you're admittedly a homosexual, we have to put an asterisk at your church membership records.

Benji Schwimmer [00:10:15] And so because of that church membership record issue, we. We just need to put this asterisk there. It's not that big of a deal. You can still get, you know, sealed in the temple. You can still do everything that you can, other than the fact that you can't serve in the church with youth under the age of 18 without supervision.

John Dehlin [00:10:32] Which implies what?

Benji Schwimmer [00:10:33] Which implies that they think that I'm. I'm one step away from being a pedophile. And that really hurt because one of the biggest things that I looked forward to after making a decision to just lead a celibate lifestyle as a gay man in the church was being able to serve the youth in the church and being Able as an honest and worthy, parenthetically worthy member of the church, that I should have the same rights and privileges as everyone else. And I didn't. I was a marked man. And I felt like that was counterintuitive to what the atonement is. I felt like whatever the church legal side was, it was not reflected in Christ.

Benji Schwimmer [00:11:09] And I didn't believe and feel that that was right. And that was the very first moment that my faith, my worldview of the church changed. It was cracked, it was fragmented. And because of that, I went through this crazy spiral of fasting and praying and seeing things from a different perspective, taking myself away for a moment and realizing, is this true? Is this not? And I had a really cool. You have to watch it on Mormon Stories on the old podcast, the episode on YouTube.

Benji Schwimmer [00:11:39] But I had an experience that was just a very strong confirmation that it was time for me to leave. And I thought it was just going to be for a spell that I needed to leave in order to gain experience. I felt like the atonement was with me and that I needed to leave. I felt like the church wasn't ready to house members of the church that were in my situation, the fringe members of society, if you will, of the church. And I had a very strong confirmation that it was okay to escape and leave. And. And because of that, I left the church. But I did so fully recognizing that I was going to come back.

Benji Schwimmer [00:12:11] And in fact, this is an interesting fact that I don't think we talked about, John, but I actually saved my tithing in a savings account, you know, fully expecting to come back and pay it all. But as I left the church and as I experimented with life, with love, my worldview of the church totally changed and I lost my faith. And I hate saying lost my faith. I would rather say I gained a pure sense of what my faith is and what my beliefs are, as opposed to having to been conditioned since I was a baby to believe and see the world with a certain lens.

Benji Schwimmer [00:12:47] And that was kind of, I think, where you and I reached out. You know, I was at a fairly high risk of depression at the time and anxiety. And I had dreams of my. Of taking my own life very frequently. And they were good dreams, they weren't nightmares. And so I thought that that was also me reaching kind of a boiling point and listening to that still small voice, whether that's my conscious or something else, I know not. I don't care to know what it is. I just knew that it was right for me to leave and Then I did Mormon Stories and I came out, and it was a crazy whirlwind.

Benji Schwimmer [00:13:17] And I don't know if you know this, John, but Perez Hilton is a big, famous, like, media, gay pop culture guy. Right. Biggest pop culture website in the world. And he caught wind of my interview. He posted it on his website because of the fact that he has a thing for dancers. And he always knew that I was gay or this, that, and the other. But it was during National Coming Out Month. So it was in the summer of 2011 that that came out. And so it became a lot bigger than I had expected or anticipated. I thought, like, maybe a few hundred people were going to listen to this podcast and I could send it to my Mormon friends and family and former converts of the church, you know, just so that they can get a taste of what I went through, that it wasn't an easy decision for me to leave, that I went through hell and back. And here we are.

John Dehlin [00:14:01] All right. Yeah, that was amazing.

Benji Schwimmer [00:14:04] And I say these things.

John Dehlin [00:14:05] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And please go back and listen to the full episode because it's gripping and it's emotional, a lot of details, and it's really powerful and important. Okay, yeah. So let's actually jump in. So what was the so you did an interview on Mormon stories podcast in 2011? I did. You know, even back then, I would even think now, but especially back then, I would think given that your world, you know, you were, you know, on primetime television world, you were on the global stage.

Benji Schwimmer [00:14:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:44] I'm thinking, well, Mormon Stories is small peanuts, small potatoes. It's not gonna really, you know, penetrate your actual life. You'll do the interview, but you probably won't hear much about it. It probably won't have much of an influence. For you, it'll be this blip. But for me and for my audience, you know, it'll be super cool. Yeah, that would have been my prediction of what it would have been like. So what was the aftermath for you? Or was there an aftermath?

Benji Schwimmer [00:15:10] There was a huge. I mean, there still is an aftermath. It's interesting, John, because to me, this was my coming out letter. This was my way to publicly just show the earnestness of what I felt and how difficult it was to leave the church, both to honor my Mormon past and to just express my love for the people that were there for me, that have supported me, my friends, my family in particular, but even the fans from so youo Think youk Can Dance and around the world that were fans of my dancing or my choreography or this that and the other. I wanted them to know what I went through.

Benji Schwimmer [00:15:41] I wanted them to know my struggles and. And it was a very cathartic experience as well. Afterwards though, you know, I still to this day get messages from people, you know, still seeing that online. A lot of the people don't even know it's Mormon stories. People just find it on YouTube. If they're watching my dance videos, they end up seeing a link or a recommendation. So it's interesting because I feel I didn't realize this, but more people, because of the whole reality TV thing, they think that they know you, right? And they think that they can talk to you like that. And it actually just let people more in.

Benji Schwimmer [00:16:14] So for a while, I actually kind of withdrew from the media altogether. I mean, it was. It was almost overwhelming that people felt like they knew my life and 500 people in a day would ask me these deep spiritual questions and almost seeking guidance from me. And the funny thing was is maybe I didn't project it, but I was, I was just putting my foot out the door. Like my Mormon experience was just months after I came out to friends and family. So it wasn't like I had arrived or I had all these answers. And so people looked to me to give them answers and support and I really didn't have any. I mean, I was figuring it out myself.

John Dehlin [00:16:48] And so you come across as confident and well spoken and intelligent and so

Benji Schwimmer [00:16:55] none of those things are true.

John Dehlin [00:16:56] No, you do. And so, and so those of us who would have watched would just be like, oh, he's got it. He's like, he's liberated. He's free. You're out. Smooth sailing.

Benji Schwimmer [00:17:06] Yeah, no, not even close, man. If anything, too, I think a lot of people just assume that. So even just interactions with friends and family that may have seen it, they did. They look to me as some sort of person that trailblazed a path. And I don't view myself in that way at all. In fact, it was just a daily self discovery of figuring stuff out and it was tumultuous.

Benji Schwimmer [00:17:28] But it's really interesting when I go to dance events, for example, and someone comes up to me afterwards and I'm expecting them to ask me for a private lesson or a picture, this, that and the other. And sometimes they just come up and hug me and they say, I listen to your Mormon Stories podcast. I'll tell you this much. It's so much better to hear like, I listen to your Mormon Stories podcast than I voted for you on so youo Think youk Can Dance like, it's actually, to me, I take more pride in what I did emotionally and spiritually as a person than what I've done on a TV show 12 years ago.

Benji Schwimmer [00:17:59] So it's interesting that people to this day still talk to me about it. But it's been a great experience in that sense, and I don't have the answers, people. It's just I'm still going through my own experience. I'm still growing, still evolving. But I have had a lot of growth, I think, since filming the show. So there's that.

Life After Coming Out Publicly

John Dehlin [00:18:18] Well, let's jump into that. So you do the interview and you get swamped with questions and stuff. What happened to your life? Let's just follow through on your story chronologically. So what happens after that?

Benji Schwimmer [00:18:30] What happens after that is I continue to dance. I was actually worried about coming out that people in the dance community wouldn't find me believable as the leading man. You know, I'm still a competitive dancer, and in competition, I'm leading. I'm a man on the floor. I'm dancing with women predominantly. And I worried that. I remember thinking this while we interviewed it. I worried that one of my biggest fears, outside of being rejected by friends and family in the Mormon community, was people thinking that I was not going to be a strong and powerful dancer on the floor. And I know that sounds so probably silly to most people, but that's my life, you know, as a dancer.

Benji Schwimmer [00:19:09] I want people to believe that I'm strong, that I. I know what I'm doing. It's not just some gay thing, but it's just. It's who I am as a person. And the gay thing is just a sliver on the pie chart of.

John Dehlin [00:19:20] And by the way, you can be masculine and gay.

Benji Schwimmer [00:19:21] Well, yeah, of course.

John Dehlin [00:19:22] Of course.

Benji Schwimmer [00:19:23] But I feel like the whole gay thing, people would not be believable if I did a Love Story, for example, Each year, we choose different pieces of choreography. I didn't want people doing the proverbial eye roll when I go out there and I embrace a woman. And I felt like it was very important for me to convey that. But I think I did it.

Benji Schwimmer [00:19:43] I shouldn't have worried about it. One of the best reactions after coming out was just that people embraced me and respected my art even more. You know, if I am gay, if I am straight, doesn't matter. But whatever role I'm playing on the floor, it actually. Because they know who I am, and if I'm playing a role and if it can be believable, Then I know I've done my job right. And, yeah, the whole masculinity thing, I think, was one of the biggest issues. I. I rewatched. I watched it for the first time, the Mormon Stories interview that we did seven years ago, a couple years back, and I was mortified after I watched it.

Benji Schwimmer [00:20:14] I felt so bad. I was upset with myself in many ways. I mean, I deprecated all over watching it because of the fact that I felt like I was still very, very hung up on trying to prove that I was a man.

Benji Schwimmer [00:20:30] And I did that because I was made fun of so much as a child for being a dancer that everyone called me fag. Everyone called me all these horrible, hateful names. And I would fight like I would get fistfights with people to just say, no, I'm not right. That's the Irish in me, I guess. And so I realized that I still had a lot of heterosexism kind of floating in my brain, in my psyche.

Benji Schwimmer [00:20:57] I feel as if, too, I was trying to prove that I was a man despite being gay. And I've gotten over that so much more now in these later years after having come out. But it was a process and rewatching that I realized, wow, I was still really compensating. So it's funny because most people say, wow, you came out, it was this beautiful thing. You were so vulnerable and raw. But I was still. I had a huge guard up in many facets of who I am as a person. And I think I didn't know what to expect. I didn't know if my masculinity was going to be challenged after leaving the church.

Benji Schwimmer [00:21:30] And I got over it chronologically because I started dating. And dating people, you start connecting with people, all sorts of different walks of life. I've had partners that were very effeminate. I've had partners that were very masculine. And it doesn't matter. I fell in love with both types. It doesn't really matter to me, you know? Yeah. I don't know if you have a question.

John Dehlin [00:21:51] Yeah, yeah. So let. So let. For those who don't know, tell us again about what your main day jobs are. So two or three main day jobs, like what do you do professionally for those who don't kind of have an understanding?

Career in Television and Dance

Benji Schwimmer [00:22:06] Yeah. So it's very hard to understand because people see you dance on tv, they think that that's your job. Well, I do. I direct segments on live tv. Often I'm a choreographer. So some of the shows I've done. So youo think youk Can Dance, Dancing with the Stars, X Factor, World of Dance. I'm a choreographer on that show. I've done everything. America's Got Talent, and I not only direct, but I choreograph and perform. So I train. But on the side note, I'm a competitive dancer, so I wake up, I train every day. I'm in the gym for two hours. I do pt, I practice with my dance partner twice a day, in the morning and at night.

Benji Schwimmer [00:22:41] I also coach and choreograph over 50 pieces a year, usually for other people, other companies. I lecture as well on musicality, music theory, performance aspect. I'm also kind of a secret weapon for Olympians. So, like Adam Rippon's the Bird piece that was very well known at the Olympics this past year, I choreographed that. So I'm an Olympic coach and figure skating choreographer as well.

John Dehlin [00:23:04] Figure skating?

Benji Schwimmer [00:23:05] Yeah. I had 11 choreographed pieces in the Olympics this year from five different countries.

John Dehlin [00:23:10] What? Yeah, this year?

Benji Schwimmer [00:23:12] Yeah. I'm kind of a badass John, so I do a little bit of everything. I just got done directing Quentin Tarantino film segment in his new film, Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. And so, you know, I do.

John Dehlin [00:23:23] You're allowed to say that now.

Benji Schwimmer [00:23:25] I will, yeah. I, I just checked my, My, my contract. I'm good now, so we're okay. And if not, I don't think Quentin's going to be watching Mormon stories. Not to, like, say that you're not super famous. You're the Oprah of Mormonism, brother.

John Dehlin [00:23:36] But who else was on the set? Can you say, or.

Benji Schwimmer [00:23:38] Yeah. Brad Pitt, Leonardo DiCaprio, Margot Robbie, Al Pacino. Al Frickin. Pacino was there. Burt Reynolds before he passed. So this is just, you know, a couple months back.

John Dehlin [00:23:48] That's amazing.

Benji Schwimmer [00:23:49] So I don't know if that kind of ties people in, but in terms of my training as a dancer, I am an athlete and an artist, and it's a very interesting dichotomy. And I train like an Olympian. I'm maybe even more so. So I'm very. I take it as serious as a seizure with what I do and very focused on that. Very, very, very. I'm very passionate about it in that sense, to a fault sometimes.

John Dehlin [00:24:14] And that training is for what?

Benji Schwimmer [00:24:15] Competitions for my World Championships.

John Dehlin [00:24:17] So talk about that.

Benji Schwimmer [00:24:18] So the World Swing Dance Championships happen the day after Thanksgiving every year. I've been competing at it as a child since I was three. And.

John Dehlin [00:24:25] And your parents are legacies?

Benji Schwimmer [00:24:28] My parents are legends in the dance

John Dehlin [00:24:29] community, not broadly and also in swing.

Benji Schwimmer [00:24:32] Broadly and in the swing dance community. My parents are world renowned in many communities, though, so I've trained in every dance community style there is. So we pride ourselves here as, like, very versatile dancers. Like, I would say, I could walk into any room in any dance form and fix what's happening.

John Dehlin [00:24:49] Ballroom, swing. Ballroom, swing, tango.

Benji Schwimmer [00:24:52] But not just partner dancing. Contemporary, hip hop, tap, house dancing, voguing, everything. Ballet. We can do that. I actually just recently gave lectures on what we call modern swing, where it's an evolved version. Evolved version of swing, where we're doing it to contemporary music. And I'm working with contemporary companies, private companies, on how to partner better. I'm creating a system, a physics system on how to dance and connect with another body more efficiently in any art form, in any genre of the world. And it's been really fun to kind of do that as I've been branching out a little bit. So, yeah, I'm kind of a dance nerd when it comes to that.

John Dehlin [00:25:28] And this competition happens once a year.

Benji Schwimmer [00:25:30] Once a year. World champion, the world championships. And I train like a fiend for it, maniacally. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:38] And you will have won.

Benji Schwimmer [00:25:40] I've. I've. I've won 13 years in a row now.

John Dehlin [00:25:43] In a row.

Benji Schwimmer [00:25:44] In a professional. In our professional category. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:46] Yeah. And I want to talk about that, but we'll come back to that.

Benji Schwimmer [00:25:50] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:25:50] So chronologically, you. You stop. You do your Mormon stories.

Benji Schwimmer [00:25:54] Interview. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:55] You get a lot of press. What? Let's. Let's go. Let's do two threads professionally. Let's do three threads. Three threads professionally. You know, faith wise and romantically. Let's try and kind of follow those three threads chronologically.

Benji Schwimmer [00:26:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:13] For whatever points you think are relevant.

Benji Schwimmer [00:26:15] Great.

John Dehlin [00:26:15] To kind of tell your story from there.

Benji Schwimmer [00:26:17] Okay. Yeah. I. Shortly after, I met somebody and I started dating a new guy. And it was one of those things where this is really very fresh. And we dated and it was amazing. There was fireworks, and it was this, that and the other, and it was great. And he was in the Marines. He was closeted. We met from Grindr, which is like a very popular gay dating app.

John Dehlin [00:26:40] Was it hard to date a gay man as a ex Mormon? A newly minted ex Mormon? What's that like to.

Benji Schwimmer [00:26:47] Oh, my God.

John Dehlin [00:26:48] I mean, because they're for better, for worse, for true or false. There are, you know, rumors or stereotypes about the gay experience.

Benji Schwimmer [00:26:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:59] And so I imagine. But that doesn't mean that you're not this innocent, naive, sort of like earnest law of chastity kind Of Mormon, wide eyed person. You were, you were. And so I. So we might have thoughts, but even you were probably scared.

First Steps into the Gay Community

Benji Schwimmer [00:27:15] I was scared out of my timid mind.

John Dehlin [00:27:16] I was talk about that because, you

Benji Schwimmer [00:27:18] know, the problem is, and this is a very, this is a whole nother can of worms. But in general, the gay community, when you think gay community, most people think pride festivals, drag queens, men in jockstraps and big boots, walking around with a lot of muscles with bent wrists, you know, And I think that that's unfortunately a very common stereotype that most people. When you think gay community, you think that. I think that's starting to change, right? I think that's. I'm so happy that it is. And that scared me, you know, the AIDS epidemic, that scared me. There's a lot of drugs and experimentation at these dance clubs that you go to.

Benji Schwimmer [00:27:53] And it scared me. I remember I walked to a gay club shortly after coming out and I walked in and I had the worst anxiety attack. Here I am walking into a dance club where I should feel like at my most comfortable, right? And I walk in, I own this place. I own this place, right? Like I can take tear apart anybody here in this room, right? And immediately I'm seeing guys and their jaws are moving like this. They're beautiful and they're dancing, but they're on so many drugs.

John Dehlin [00:28:17] What does the jaw mean?

Benji Schwimmer [00:28:18] When a guy does this with his jaw, it's usually a sign that they're on like multiple types of narcotics. And so I mean, I walked in there and someone tried kissing me and putting a drug in my mouth. And I'm like, what is this? This is not what I want. This is that large and spacious building. This is Sodom and Gomorrah, you know. And it scared me. It scared me so much, John. It was crazy. And it's funny, after I did Mormon stories, I immediately moved to San Diego and I moved near the gayborhood, which is Hillcrest. It's similar to West Hollywood. It's kind of a.

Benji Schwimmer [00:28:50] I felt like I had to. I felt like I had to make a pilgrimage to like a gay mecca, so to speak. Because I thought that's what you do. I thought you come out, you move to a big city and you start dating and you find your community. And what I realized really quickly was just because I'm gay doesn't mean that we all share a common link. I have a lot of friends that are like, oh, I have a gay friend. You're gonna love him. Why? Because he's gay?

John Dehlin [00:29:11] Yeah. There's no such thing as the gay experience. It doesn't exist.

Benji Schwimmer [00:29:13] Calm down.

John Dehlin [00:29:14] There's no such thing as the gay lifestyle.

Benji Schwimmer [00:29:16] Right.

John Dehlin [00:29:16] There's so many different moralities.

Benji Schwimmer [00:29:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:19] Approaches to life, tastes, preferences. Right.

Benji Schwimmer [00:29:21] Your straight lifestyle is very, very vast and crazy. There's no difference, I think, other than the fact that we're still a minority, we're still a marginalized society, relatively speaking. And because of that, we have tighter pockets and tighter knit communities. And other than that, though, it's that. So I dealt with that and I also dealt with, in the dance community, the only gay men that I knew in the dance community. Two of my first teachers died of aids. One was a BYU student, married with three kids.

Benji Schwimmer [00:29:51] And so I had this vision of either, you know, if you were more of the straighter acting gay, you're going to die of aids, and that's a trauma. Right. That's obviously not the case, but. Or you have these. You have these really flamboyant characters that are walking around like the Jess Jack types, and they're entertaining the crowds and they're funny as all hell. But I feel like they're on. I feel like they're being a character. And, you know, I think we all fall into those categories as times as people. But I just didn't relate with either one of those two groups, or at least I didn't.

Benji Schwimmer [00:30:23] And now I've gotten to a places I started dating. I fell in love with this guy and it was very wonderful. It was very intense. And he loved the fact that I was Mormon because he loved the fact that I had discipline, that I wasn't one of those types to just party and to sleep around and to cheat. Like, I believed in monogamy and I believed in so many of my Mormon practices other than the fact that it was with another man. And I think he really liked that. He was a Marine, so he had to be disciplined. He couldn't do drugs because they did drug testing and this, that and the other.

Benji Schwimmer [00:30:55] He was actually going into the police academy at the time when we were dating. And so I think we got each other in that sense. You know, he had been to Afghanistan several times, so he liked the fact that I'd been to Oaxaca on my Mormon mission and we could kind of find an interesting common space together. Ironically, he cheated on me. And that broke my heart. And I realized quickly thereafter that he was more ingrained in that gay community that I thought he was shunning or that side of the gay world than I had anticipated. And it Broke my heart. And the funny thing was, John, and this is what I realized, and this is something that I think our viewers who are gay or who are struggling and maybe dating for the first time or thinking about getting into the dating community, one piece of advice that I can say is this.

Benji Schwimmer [00:31:39] Jesus, or the role that the Savior plays in your life in the Mormon world, the church experience, you need to mourn it when you leave. And I don't think I did. I think I did my Mormon stories thing. And for the most part, the response was amazing. The response was so positive. We still love you. We still love you. I mean, I got a hate letter here and there every day, but I usually just try to ignore it because I just didn't care. And if there were friends of mine that reacted negatively, I let them say their piece, but I didn't respond. And if they wanted to come back and apologize and be friends with me and accept me as I am, great.

Benji Schwimmer [00:32:12] If not, it's time to move on. And I had to leave it at that. I couldn't. I'm not going to try and defend my position. I mean, I think my Mormon stories experience was enough of a defense to begin with. And if they couldn't empathize or sympathize in that moment, then they needed some growth and needed some work. But going back to that, when I, when I came out and when he broke up, when I broke up with him after he cheated on me, he needed to break up. He wasn't ready. I realized that I wasn't mourning this loss of him. It was a short lived relationship, relatively speaking. What I did was as I was mourning the loss of the church, this guy that I dated was a rebound to Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:32:53] Oh, wow.

Benji Schwimmer [00:32:54] And that's what I had figured out. I'm like, why is this? Like, yeah, it hurt my heart that we. But we were together for not even a year. And yet what I realized is I was mourning the loss of the role of Heavenly Father in my life. I was mourning the loss of this. And he represented that. He represented this divine romance that we had because I felt like God put him in my life. I felt like I was being rewarded for listening to that still small voice and leaving the church. That was strong for me, John. And it was one of those things where I realized that this man was a rebound.

Benji Schwimmer [00:33:28] That relationship was a band aid of the hole that was left in my heart from leaving my faith that I've known my whole life for 27, 28 years. And so that was huge for me. That was a profound experience and it took me. I needed time to not date. I actually had to stop dating guys for a while. I had to stop doing that. And I just needed to feel that void and I needed to find ways to work around it. And that actually comes into play with one of those layers that you mentioned. So while the romantic side stopped for a minute, what did step up was my professional side.

Benji Schwimmer [00:34:03] So I took all of that passion for Mormonism and I re. I doubled down in dance. I doubled down in being able to be a better dancer, a better teacher. I traveled the world, I studied, I worked harder. I became a much better dancer well into my late 20s and early 30s than I ever was before when I was a Mormon. When I was on so youo Think youk Can Dance, that to me was college. That was the experience for me. So when people talk about this as some sort of crowning achievement, to me it was like a graduation ceremony into actually my career.

Benji Schwimmer [00:34:35] And that's why I just kind of laugh when people are like, oh my gosh, it was such a great experience to me it was college, you know, education.

Listener Questions and Boundaries

John Dehlin [00:34:43] Okay, I'm going to integrate a couple of questions that listeners have asked.

Benji Schwimmer [00:34:47] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:34:49] Some, some have gotten the sense and, and I'm guessing that you're going to have some sensitivity regarding what you're able to talk about and not because professionally you don't want to speak out of class, whatever the term is. These are important people. Nigel, Mary, whoever, these producers and, and judges on so youo Think youk Can Dance and all that and you still have a relationship with them.

Benji Schwimmer [00:35:11] Many of them, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:13] You know, some get the impression or maybe I've had the impression that there were some bumpy things about that.

Benji Schwimmer [00:35:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:18] And, or that maybe you weren't always comfortable wanting to talk about that, talk about any of that. That you're able to.

Benji Schwimmer [00:35:25] Yeah, that's a, that's a great question and I think that's going to answer a lot of the listeners questions. Right. So yeah, you know what it is, is for me, and one thing that I think you were very helpful with earlier on in this interview is you immediately were talking about I'm a 13 time undefeated world champion.

Benji Schwimmer [00:35:42] If when, knock on wood, I win my 14th world championship, I will break the world record, the Guinness Brook World records for most world titles in any art form of dance, any form of dance at all. And I currently hold the record in swing dancing by many and partner dancing in general. So I've done a lot more things where through the work through my control, through my training process, I actually felt like I won something with so youo Think youk Can Dance. It's largely based on personality, it's largely based on TV and what the producers want to put in front of the audience's mind. And however much of a real experience it was for me on camera, what happened behind the scenes was pretty traumatic.

Benji Schwimmer [00:36:26] You know, people didn't treat us very well. In particular me. A lot of choreographers, a lot of producers tried breaking me for drama, and I felt a little bit like I was being a pawn. So, you know, people see the smiling, they see that I won and this, that and the other. But when I won, I felt guilty as all hell because here you had Danielle, Heidi, Travis, Allison, Natalie, Dimitri, Ivan, Martha, all these amazing dancers. And why, why me? Why did I win? And I felt super guilty about it. So for me, it was. It was a very interesting experience because I cared about these dancers that I had great camaraderie with at the time, and I didn't.

Benji Schwimmer [00:37:03] I wanted them to be successful. I wanted them to get it. I just loved the experience ultimately, in terms of what I learned as a dancer and how I learned to be a better performer. But to me, again, that was just a TV show.

Benji Schwimmer [00:37:18] It was a year of my life. Whereas what I do now, to me, is so much more profound, has so much more weight. And I know people can't get that because it's such a niche community that I'm in and I'm not in the public spotlight as much as I was during that show. So people connect with me on that show and they voted with me. But there's also this feeling that people, because I voted for you, you owe me a behind the scenes thing. And frankly, I don't owe you anything. I don't owe you jack shit. Grateful that you voted for me, like, so grateful that the work that I put on that show, the hours off camera that people didn't see, the crying at night, the sweating, the blood, the tears, the extra practice when people were asleep and I was still doing my thing.

Benji Schwimmer [00:38:04] That's my gift to you as a dancer. So sometimes I feel like people feel like they can ask me all these behind the scenes questions and they can ask as much as they want, but I feel like I need to have some boundaries as well. And also it was kind of a traumatic experience for me. So I don't like rehashing it all the time. And I would rather ask people, what are you up to now?

Benji Schwimmer [00:38:24] As opposed to who's your Favorite choreographer on the show. You know, it was 12 years ago. Like I don't even remember half the names of the people I worked with, you know, So I feel like that has something to do with it.

Benji Schwimmer [00:38:38] And also too, I tried really hard to separate myself. Like I took the title from the show and I wanted to move on. I didn't want my business, I didn't want my success to be so heavily related to that show because I was already a three time world champion before I entered that show. I had already made a name for myself in a smaller sense, but in my own dance communities. And that's the community that I work from for the most part. And everything I've done since like the show has maybe opened a few doors. It's a good sweetener on a resume or this, that and the other.

Benji Schwimmer [00:39:10] But you still have to audition. You still have to do everything like any other dancer would have to do to earn what you get. And that's what I've done. And I just don't. Again, it was college to me.

Benji Schwimmer [00:39:22] It wasn't my pinnacle. And if people think it's a one hit wonder kind of thing, I don't view it that way at all. It was a reality TV show ultimately and reality is a very air quoted thing. It was not scripted, but there was a lot of things behind the scene that were forced and contrived, out of my control. Editing is everything. Right. I don't know if that answers your question at all.

John Dehlin [00:39:44] Totally does. Totally. Okay, okay. So. So yeah, I imagine it's like, yeah, like you said, a one hit wonder where a star gets a song early on but then goes on to have all sorts of personal and professional achievements. Yeah, everybody just wants them to sing that one song that they sang at the beginning of their career.

Benji Schwimmer [00:40:03] Right. And I think, I think people can sympathize with that. They've seen movies like that where it's like, hey, do that thing, you know, whatever it might be. We've all seen TV shows and movies like that about people. So yeah, I mean, look, it'd be different if like I was Lou Vega and I sang Mambo Number Five and I still get paid for it, but I don't, you know what I mean? Like that show didn't even really pay in that sense. So when you mentioned so youo Think youk Can Dance, I don't mind it. And when people mention it, it's fine.

Benji Schwimmer [00:40:31] But again, it was 12 years ago and it's great. And if that's what you want to say, like I'm happy that my experience, my work, touched you and maybe it influenced you and inspired you. I do love hearing people come up to me and saying, I started dancing because of you on so youo Think youk Can Dance. I feel like that, to me, is a huge honor, and it's wonderful. But when you. When you want to ask personal questions about other cast members or about Nigel or about Kat Deeley or Mary Murphy, I just don't feel like it's my space to talk for them or.

Benji Schwimmer [00:41:06] Or to peek behind the curtain of a show. Like, that's our professional side. And behind the scenes sometimes need to be behind the scenes.

John Dehlin [00:41:13] I love it.

Benji Schwimmer [00:41:14] Okay, boundaries, John.

John Dehlin [00:41:15] I love it. Have to ask, but I love. I love the answer.

Benji Schwimmer [00:41:20] Ask anything, John. It's fine. Ask anything. Facebook communities.

John Dehlin [00:41:24] It's fine. Okay, so. So you had that breakup.

Benji Schwimmer [00:41:32] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:32] And then. So what big things happen in your career after that?

Benji Schwimmer [00:41:36] I mean, you know, everything. The thing is with my career is I've continued to compete, so that was always a constant thing. I'm at conventions almost every weekend, adjudicating, lecturing, coaching, choreographing, competing, improvising, doing shows. So that's happened. I've traveled to literally almost every country in the world to perform, to direct shows on tv. I've done a lot of really fun things. I've choreographed for a lot of famous people, and a lot of. A lot of TV shows worked for HBO, VH1, MTV. I've directed live segments for Divas Live. I've done. It's. I mean, I've done a lot. I've started music videos. I've directed music videos.

John Dehlin [00:42:20] I've directed ones we'd know.

Benji Schwimmer [00:42:22] One of the videos that I did that I probably was most known for was Candyman by Christina Aguilera. I was the Candyman, and I coached and choreographed most of that video and worked with her privately. I did. I've done several videos. I recently did a campaign called Love is Love is love with LeAnn Rimes. And we did a music video where we danced on a bed and we had guys dancing with girls, then girls dancing with girls, then girls dancing with boys, and then boys dancing with boys. And we had polyamorous couples dancing together in bed. And it was just a really nice way to say that love is love is love.

Benji Schwimmer [00:42:54] And I got to direct it and come and did the work and the dancing with it, and it was lovely to do that. I've been heavily involved in that. We did the Love Loud festival recently, which you and I reconnected and got to see one another at. So the career has brought me in many different spaces. I'm the first dancer to ever perform in the Kennedy center for the National Symphony Orchestra, which was pretty cool.

Benji Schwimmer [00:43:22] First time they ever built, like a dance floor in front of the symphony. And so my sister Lacy and I got to perform there and direct a show there, which was pretty badass. I loved that. That was such a cool experience.

Benji Schwimmer [00:43:33] Yeah, I mean, I just dance. It's my everyday thing, you know, I did the Quentin Tarantino film recently and done a lot of fun stuff, but ultimately, my favorite thing to do in the world is to coach and to choreograph and to train. And it's not as exciting, I think, on paper, but it's the thing that I love the absolute most, I would say. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:56] So, yeah, let's keep going.

Benji Schwimmer [00:43:58] Did a lot of stuff. My career is great. Having a great time teaching, doing a lot of stuff, developing judging systems, choreographing for the Olympics, for two Olympics now has been amazing. It's been great. Performing live in front of thousands of people, going on multiple tours, dance tours.

Benji Schwimmer [00:44:15] Been awesome. To travel the world and to connect with other dancers who don't speak any English, but know my dancing and to be able to teach them through movements is wonderful. And so I did that. I just doubled down on my career. I doubled down on my dancing, on my training. I didn't want my personality to be what made me successful. I wanted the actual movement. And so I would actually videotape myself in silhouette to make sure that my body was what was doing good. Like I was a crap dancer. Like, I hated watching me dance on so youo Think youk Can Dance, for example, because I wasn't where I wanted to be.

Benji Schwimmer [00:44:51] I was fresh off my mission, very rusty. And I can say honestly now that every year I've done something to improve my skill set as a dancer, as a teacher, and as a choreographer. And so, yeah, it's. It's nice being in your. Your mid-30s now, 34. I know somebody asked that on Facebook. I'm 34 years old and I'm a better dancer today than I was at 24, which is insane. That never is the case usually in the dance world or even in the athletics world. So, yeah, it's good. I like it.

Faith Journey and Post-Mormon Relationships

John Dehlin [00:45:23] Okay, so let's talk about the combination of your faith journey, your post Mormon journey, and relationships. And I imagine those weave in and out a little bit.

Benji Schwimmer [00:45:36] They do. So removing the professional side of things, as I'm traveling and this, that, and the other.

John Dehlin [00:45:40] Little by little, last we talked, you had taken a break and your professional ramped up.

Benji Schwimmer [00:45:45] Yeah, I took a major romantic break because, like, I just couldn't handle it. And I tried forcing myself to socially date just to, like, get to know people, and these guys just didn't compare to this man who represented Mormonism. I mean, honestly, truly, John, that's what it was. And I probably met a lot of great people, but I never felt the same power, the same magnetic feeling that I did with this prior guy because of that, and it wasn't him. Like, in hindsight, I've seen videos of he and I, and I'll see pictures of him occasionally on social media, and I'm like, what the hell was I thinking?

Benji Schwimmer [00:46:21] And then I realized it was. It was what he represented that was so powerful, strong, and really unrealistic. And so little by little, I would just chip away at that, heal from that, and kind of push it to the side. And then I really was able to kind of separate my healing process from the need to connect and to be intimate and to seek intimate connections with people. So it was great. I decided to. Part of my French.

John Dehlin [00:46:49] Okay, wait, let me ask you a question.

Benji Schwimmer [00:46:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:50] So you and I both would have grown up in the Mormon Church, where you, like, you can't touch a woman's breast. She can't touch you anywhere. Like, you know, before marriage, there's no sex and there's no anything. It's just kissing and hugging and making out is the worst thing. And you have.

Benji Schwimmer [00:47:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:08] Like, what's it like going from that to dating, you know, Men.

Benji Schwimmer [00:47:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:14] And. And I'm sure a lot of those men don't have that same history.

Benji Schwimmer [00:47:18] Yeah. None do.

John Dehlin [00:47:20] And I'm not asking you for, like, to give gory details, but, like, what's that like trying to go into that experience of not just dating.

Benji Schwimmer [00:47:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:26] But also sexuality.

Benji Schwimmer [00:47:28] Well, sexuality in general. For me, it was a very interesting thing because, you know, it's ironic. My family in general, my. My extended family in general, we're. We're very open with talking about sex you just can't have. Was a very interesting dilemma and kind of group speak that we have with one another. So for me, that was very interesting. Going through that breakup, one thing that I actually decided to do was to figure out what my likes and needs were. And I truly suggest that people educate themselves on STD prevention, on safe sex practices. I think that's very important. That too many.

John Dehlin [00:48:04] What are the highlights? What are the Highlights.

Benji Schwimmer [00:48:05] What are the highlights? Condoms. Yes. Also just asking. Communicating with people that you're gonna have sex with. When's the last time you had sex? Because, you know, outside of condom wearing, if you have any kind of other. Other foreplay, you can still get other STDs outside of HIV. Like, yeah, you're preventing the big ones. But even for instance, oral sex, like, somebody's throat can still give you chlamydia and gonorrhea. And I immediately, the moment I left the church, like, I was online, I researched everything. I called all of my gay friends from the dance community. I'm like, help me out here. What do I do? I didn't even know that gay people had roles. Like, one is a top or a bottom or versatile or versatile top or this, that and the other. There's dominance and submissives and there's all these, like, subcultures that can get you.

John Dehlin [00:48:51] So. And there's also these animal sort of.

Benji Schwimmer [00:48:53] There's puppies, there's bulls, there's bears, there's otters, there's wolves, there's twinks, there's.

John Dehlin [00:48:59] What are those things?

Benji Schwimmer [00:48:59] Usually it's like a horrible subcategory of, like.

John Dehlin [00:49:03] It's a thing though, right?

Benji Schwimmer [00:49:04] It is a thing for a lot of people. I hate it in the sense that I feel like, stop labeling yourself.

John Dehlin [00:49:09] What are, what are. So give us some examples.

Benji Schwimmer [00:49:11] So, for example, like, at the time when I did Mormon stories, so I was probably like 130 pounds, fresh faced, clean cut, that's what you would call a twink, okay? Because they're twinkie. They're sweet on the outside and creamy in the middle or something, I guess, right? And then I started putting on muscle, right? So then I became a twunk because it's a cross between a twink and a hunk, right? If I were to gain a lot of weight and like grow the beard out, but I'm still really fit, I'm an otter.

John Dehlin [00:49:40] If you're skinny.

Benji Schwimmer [00:49:41] If you're skinny or fit, right? If you're really worked out and you're bald and shaved, you're a bull. If you're hairy and worked out or extra large, you're a bear. If you're young and you're dating somebody older than you, you're a cub. So there's like, let alone in other languages, there's puppies and Cucciolos and Italian. Like, there's all sorts of subcategorizations. And then there's a lot of people. What I didn't like, at least in my experience, is that whether your sexual role, if you have a. Or proclivity to penetrate or be penetrated, that almost sometimes defines your role outside of the sexual realm, which I thought was really silly. Like, I didn't connect the fact that.

John Dehlin [00:50:19] Well, sort of like a male, female, dominant, passive, sort of traditional, patriarchal kind of relationship.

Benji Schwimmer [00:50:26] And there are a lot of couples that have that in same sex dynamics. There are a lot of couples that have that in heterosexual, you know, heteronormative dynamics as well. Like, for example, I know a lot of couples that are heterosexual where even though the female, for example, obviously is being penetrated. And that can change because, you know, there are toys that can flip that as well, that they're the dominant ones even though they're being penetrated. So you can have somebody who's submissive in bed, but the top in the relationship that penetrates. It's very confusing and I feel like contingent to who you're dating. Those dynamics shift and change often.

Benji Schwimmer [00:51:01] But that's why I don't like it because I feel like a lot of people's roles are relatively fixed. And to be honest with you, John, when I was first dating, I made everybody know that I was a top because I wanted people to know that I'm the man. And I fell victim to projecting that to people. And how horrible to do that. Like, how horrible to put something in that position because it's insulting when someone comes up to you when you're with your partner and say, now who's the female of the relationship? It's insulting. It's truly insulting. It's insulting for the two men that you're talking to, the two cisgendered men, let alone it's insulting to anybody that might be trans when. What does a female of the relationship actually mean?

John Dehlin [00:51:41] You mean it's insulting to women? It's 100% as if women have a role in relationships. Right.

Benji Schwimmer [00:51:47] So what does that mean to you exactly? It's like, why would you even say that? Now most of the time they're asking, like, who is penetrating and who is not. And I think that's a horrible thing to ask in general, personally. And so I've learned to just let go of that and not try and label myself that. You know, sometimes on Instagram I'll do like live question and answers. And that is asked more often than not if I'm a top or a bottom. And it's like.

Benji Schwimmer [00:52:12] And to be honest with you, it would be really easy for my pride the side of me to just Say I'm a top, deal with it. But to be honest with you, I don't want to even say that anymore because I hate that labeling. Like we're already marginalized so much in society. Let's just love one another and have communication with each other personally on what we want to do when we explore something in the bedroom, right? And I. And one thing that I noticed is I was dating a lot of these guys after this guy. Just brief short stints, little relationships here and there. And I was dating bottoms, quote, unquote, bottoms.

Benji Schwimmer [00:52:43] And I was the top. And what I realized is because it was such a fixed role, it trickled outside of the bedroom. I had to pick where we went to eat every single time. I had to be the one that give you gifts. I had to be the one to cuddle you always. I had to be the one to tell you I loved you. And so it was very, very almost selfish and cyclical and weird where it was so one sided that these younger guys and these smaller guys that I were dating were just fulfilling this fixed role that I was creating unintentionally. And so I stopped that.

Benji Schwimmer [00:53:15] In fact, I dated a guy who was. I'm five nine, 180 pounds. And I was dating a guy that was six one, 200 pounds. And that was weird to publicly walk into like a bar to watch like a Laker game or something. We don't really go to gay bars, but like walk into a sports bar and people walk in and they're not sure if we're gay. If they see us touch one another, they know and to just walk in and realize that people are probably thinking that I'm the quote unquote female of this relationship. And it was very interesting thing. But you know, as you fall for people, it doesn't matter how tall or how short they are, you know, I want that forever factor when I'm dating somebody.

Benji Schwimmer [00:53:53] And so that's a big thing that I encountered, John, where I had to get over a lot of that. I had to get over proving that I was a man, proving that I was macho or this, that and the other. And you know what the ironic thing is, John, is once I've done that, I've felt more of a man by not caring what other people think, you know, by. By letting my relationships being dictated and predicated upon our intimacy and our communication, I feel more of a man and more stronger and more secure with who I am as an individual. Now when I just said fuck it, right, as opposed to worrying about These perceptions of what people think.

Benji Schwimmer [00:54:35] So if I date somebody that's younger than me or older than me, I don't care what labels you give me, go ahead and think about it. Because I know what's happening in the bedroom and frankly, no one else needs to know. I could care less.

John Dehlin [00:54:47] And we're simultaneously saying that it's rude and horrible to be asking these sorts of questions. And I'm asking them, but I'm doing it partly well, just because it's a thing and it's something people have to work through. But also, let's just say there's young gay Mormons or even middle aged gay Mormons that are kind of going to be going through this. Maybe it'll give them some shortcuts or some perspective to handle it better. So I realized that I'm asking some of these questions that are kind of rude.

Benji Schwimmer [00:55:17] No, no, it's fine.

John Dehlin [00:55:18] But it's hopefully for a bigger, greater purpose.

Benji Schwimmer [00:55:20] Ask as much like cliche, taboo, insulting stuff. Because I feel like it is good that people hear this, because I get those questions all the time, privately from a lot of closeted individuals on Facebook, on Instagram, all the time. And, you know, and it's fine. And the gay community is always going to be sex driven. And I get that. Or generally speaking, and I'm okay with that. Like, and I embrace that to an extent. And it's fine. And you need to learn to love yourself. And I've censored my body and I've dealt with so many body image issues over my life. Like, it's. It's one thing just to kind of get over it and to be honest with it.

Benji Schwimmer [00:55:53] And if I can suggest anything, like, as a gay man, if you haven't had sex, if you haven't experimented with that first study, figure out medically what you need to do. And also if you are going to be on the receiving end, like, understand how to prepare so that you don't have a negative experience. Because, sorry, audience members, we do something called butt sex. And you know, poop comes out there. And so you can have really messy, shameful experiences that can traumatize you. I had a partner for a minute that didn't want to have any anal penetration because he had a very bad experience the first time he tried, and it was messy and this, that and the other.

Benji Schwimmer [00:56:28] So there's ways to prepare where you're gonna be fine. And it's very simple once you know your body and you know how to prepare for that. But, you know, it's it's something that I feel like people need to do their research on. And don't just jump into something like, there's gonna be plenty opportunities for you to have sex, especially in the gay world. If you want it, you can find it any day, any moment of the week. And so just be prepared. Do the research. Experiment with yourself. Explore yourself first. I feel like touching yourself. I feel like masturbation and trying different things on you is a great way to understand what feels right for you.

Benji Schwimmer [00:57:00] And that way you'll be able to communicate with a potential sexual partner if there's a compatibility. And I feel like that's more important to have that dialogue than just jumping into something scary and rough that could potentially hurt you or get you sick.

John Dehlin [00:57:15] Are there some books or some websites that are really good resources for learning about healthy sexuality as a gay man that you're aware of?

Benji Schwimmer [00:57:22] There's a great book called the Joy of Gay Sex that was really, really informative for me. It really helped me. It has some Kama Sutra, things that help you with. Just like the ergonomics of it all, because it's different than obviously hetero dynamics. But one thing that I'm gonna say and I think is pretty cool about being gay.

Benji Schwimmer [00:57:38] And listen, there's a lot of negatives that there's a lot of knocks against us people. But if you are two gay men, the one really cool thing that we have that no other combination of sexual partnerships have naturally is the ability to be inside of one another in any given sexual experience without the use of toys, without the use of assistance. The piping works in that way. So that's the one thing that I feel like we do have something kind of cool there right where you can actually, I find it beautiful and kind of poetic that you two can be inside of each other if you wanted it.

Benji Schwimmer [00:58:10] And I think that's kind of unique. There's no other combination of genders that can do that naturally. So I think it's kind of cool. But. So just get over it. Get over the labels. Just be you, you know, and if

John Dehlin [00:58:23] someone to say, it's just an unhealthy. It's not natural. What do you say to that? It's, God didn't make us that way. That's not how our body parts are supposed to be working together. What do you say to that?

Benji Schwimmer [00:58:33] If God didn't want us to have butt sex, then he wouldn't have made a prostate, because it's quite pleasureful. Like to stimulate a prostate when it's my favorite thing to do to stimulate another person's prostate. But like beyond that, it feels good and it's beautiful. And I've had sex and I've made love in the same kind of sexual scenario and archetype. And it's beautiful. I can make love to somebody that I love that way rectally. I don't have to. You know, there's many ways to create intimacy physically between you and your partner, but it's wonderful to do that. And it can be beautiful, it can be fun, it can be exciting, it can be sexy, it could be crazy.

Benji Schwimmer [00:59:21] And I feel like there's a whole spectrum of sexual exploration. Like if it's okay if I say a cuss word, I believe that there's a time to make love, there's a time to have sex, there's a time to fuck. And I think that all of those three things can be good. Sorry for those of you that like, remember me from like seven years ago in Mormon stories, I don't think I would have said these things at that time. But I learned that there is expression in all three of those facets that I find that there's value in all of those things. And it took me a long time to figure all that out.

Benji Schwimmer [00:59:51] But Joy of Gay Sex is a great book also. Another book to read is just the Velvet Rage. I don't know if you know the Velvet Rage, John. If you read the first two chapters, life affirming, life changing, and it basically talks about falling under two different gay archetypes. That really helped me change my perspective and I'd love to share this with people. The Velvet Rage. It is such a good book.

Benji Schwimmer [01:00:10] It talks about two things that two men. The Velvet Rage is basically you hide behind a velvet curtain and you play a character, right? So like gay people in general. You're gonna find two types of gay men most of the time in stereotypical TV shows in the world. You're gonna find one that works out is an Adonis sized, perfect face, perfect everything, buff, wearing Speedos all the time kind of guy, right? Not a hair on their body. And it's the kind of guy aesthetically that straight women say, gosh, if only he were straight, right? Or you're gonna find that girlfriend just Jack, super campy, super gay, super flamboyant, performing all the time kind of gay guy that every straight woman wants to be best friends with.

Benji Schwimmer [01:00:56] And those two people in general are maybe caricatures of the person that's truly inside. You know, this person is trying to build this muscle and this level of perfection because of how insecure growing up closeted and being gay is probably being rejected by brothers and friends and not being good at sports. Those are the ones that are lifting all the time, most of the time, to find that level of attraction and to be what they never were when they were younger.

John Dehlin [01:01:25] Is it also just. It's a competitive marketplace and you want to look good?

Benji Schwimmer [01:01:28] Well, yeah, we can talk about just like gay competition, in a sense. Yeah. But I think a lot of it is that I feel like they parade the ones that parade that are probably dealing with something with that, or the Jes Jack characters are the ones that they can be stronger. They can talk down to anybody. They have a mouth on them, and they can entertain the room because ultimately they're the ones that are probably going through so much torment and so much pain and not falling under that traditional male archetype. And so instead, they take it to an extreme. We take things to extremes in general, especially if you're closeted, because we're always putting up some sort of front.

Benji Schwimmer [01:02:01] And I've tried really hard, post Mormon stories in particular, to break myself of that and to embrace it all, to love all walks of life. And dating multiple people after that first really tumultuous relationship, it's helped me understand that, because I've fallen in love with different shapes, sizes, ages, races, and just personality types. And it's been great, and it's been great to see that. What I've noticed is the people that I traditionally tend to connect with are those that have kind of lost those extremes and just are who they are. And I can see in intimate moments a little bit of that spectrum of just human emotions.

Benji Schwimmer [01:02:39] Sometimes we can be a little bit more zany. Sometimes we can be a little bit more serious, a little bit more this, a little bit more that, and I embrace it all now. It's great. That's been one of the biggest discoveries that I've had since Mormon stories.

Body Image and Self-Acceptance

John Dehlin [01:02:52] Is there anything else you want to share about body image? You said that's a topic you wanted to talk about.

Benji Schwimmer [01:02:55] Yeah. I mean, you know, it's funny. It's a combination of two things. Being on a television show and reading a lot of the things. I mean, so youo Thinking youg Dance did a lot of great things for me, but it also made me realize how unattractive I am as a person. It made me. You read these message boards, and people that may have not voted for me are like, I hate his hair. I hate his face. His smile is so Ugly. His teeth are so big, he's so scrawny. His body is so unattractive. Everyone else is cute on the show, except like, you see, you, you read a lot of negative things and that stuff affects you, let alone, I was in a very, very precious emotional state at the time, so.

Benji Schwimmer [01:03:33] And then as a gay man, what we were talking about, it's a highly competitive market. We're in an era of social media where we're seeing photoshopped bodies all the time. And not only that, video can be photoshopped now. So you're seeing videos of people and they're not as big as they really are. You're seeing these Avengers movies with men wearing padded suits and doing steroids to look the way they are. This isn't a natural space. We are the new Barbie dolls. You know, I think gay men in particular, there's an expectation to look a certain way to always be fit. The one cool thing I like about the whole like bear and otter community is the fact that if you have extra love handles, some people find that really attractive and it's okay, right?

Benji Schwimmer [01:04:13] So I just, I want people to be healthy. And as long as you're healthy, mentally, emotionally and physically, that's all I care about. And I hope that that's what I can just suggest to the people. Just worry about that. If you want to be built up and work out, work out for you. If it gives you a certain level of confidence, great. But if you feel like you have to do that, then the muscles don't last forever, right? So if you want to feel attractive, great. And I started working out for my training for dancing and I started putting on weight and I started building muscle because I felt like it, it made me feel attractive.

Benji Schwimmer [01:04:47] And I started attracting different types of people. And I liked that feeling for a very long time. And I like being able to truthfully be naked and feel a little bit more confident with a partner. But having been in long term relationships now, like, you know, you have months where you maybe you eat a little bit more. For me, I have to eat a lot of, put on a lot of fat so that I can put on muscle depending on my dance seasons. And so to have not the abs or something like that at one point, or to be too skinny after you've been really focused on competition, you learn to get over it.

Benji Schwimmer [01:05:19] Like when you're with a partner, you shouldn't expect to just have a perfect body all the time. Who cares, right? But I had terrible body image issues. I look at pictures, I look at videos of myself. I'm hypercritical. I'm a perfectionist when it comes to my dancing. Nothing's ever good. For those of the years that didn't know this, but John and Bill, who's helping us out today, came last night to the studio to watch, like, a snippet of me practicing and training. I'm pretty intense, and nothing's ever perfect, nothing's ever right. It can get better.

John Dehlin [01:05:48] But you, you described it as Olympic level training, and that's how I experienced it. I. I think, oh, he dances. No. Your rehearsals are as technical and as intense and as scary. Dangerous.

Benji Schwimmer [01:06:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:02] Physical. Demanding.

Benji Schwimmer [01:06:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:05] Extreme. It feel, it felt like an extreme sport. It felt like watching the extreme sport.

Benji Schwimmer [01:06:10] And it's funny you should see me when I'm watching the footage afterwards, right? I mean, I'm sitting there, usually on an exercise bike, cooling down, just telling myself that I'm dog pissed, that I'm terrible. Like, my inner dancer is very, very dark in terms of, like, how I'm very critical of myself, but it's also gotten me to where I'm at. And so there's this fine line of kind of straddling that darkness, embracing it, but also not letting it own me, so to speak. And I feel like that same negative inner voice is very similar to, like, my body image issues. Like, I always see myself.

Benji Schwimmer [01:06:45] I look, I look in a mirror all damn day, right? Or I'm a public figure and I have to see pictures and videos that people post of me, and I'm never happy with it. And people always say, oh, he looks like he's gained weight. Oh, you go to these events that people see you maybe once a year. Oh, you don't look so good. Are you balding? Oh, your skin looks bad. Have you been sleeping? You know, are you taking your vitamins? You get this from thousands of people who know you but don't really know you. And it's like, if you really know me, my friends just know to shut the hell up and say, hi, you look great.

Benji Schwimmer [01:07:13] And that's all you have to say if you're really friendly with somebody instead of picking somebody apart so easily. I would never go up to you, John, and say, gosh, you know, looks like you gained a little weight here, John. No, I would never say that. Like, who does that? But because I was on TV and I was criticized by judges, people feel like they have the right away to do it. And it's given me a huge ass complex. Now. On the flip side, I don't know how much of that is the Mormon experience? But I do know this. I know that from the Mormon experience, I was told to reject my body.

Benji Schwimmer [01:07:41] I was told to reject pleasure, I was told to reject all of that stuff until I was married, let alone because I was attracted to men. I would look away from men all the time. So even in moments where I feel like my body's improving or my aesthetics have improved, I would feel shame about that. And so my body image issues have been through the roof. Very difficult. I struggle with it daily.

John Dehlin [01:08:10] Still do.

Benji Schwimmer [01:08:11] Still do. Oh my God, yes. And I actually made in May. I decided this year was the year that I'm gonna really try and overcome my body image issues. And so recently I did three things. I've been doing this artistic experiment. The one thing that I know is if I can overcome something, it's usually through my art, it's usually through artistic expression, and it helps me heal. And so I decided to film a dance video in a shower, a see through shower when I was in New York City in May.

John Dehlin [01:08:40] I saw that on Instagram.

Benji Schwimmer [01:08:41] Oh, you did?

John Dehlin [01:08:41] Okay, no, no, no. Talk about it.

Benji Schwimmer [01:08:43] Yeah, you know, yeah. So I decided to say, screw it. I'm not gonna do any push ups beforehand. I'm not gonna go to the gym before him because, you know, you can work out and get a bit of a pump and feel. Feel like I even came here thinking I probably should have done some like arm lifts to look a little better on camera. And I'm thinking, what the hell? Like I'm gonna be pouring my soul out. Who the hell cares, right?

Benji Schwimmer [01:09:04] So I decided to film this video one day when I walked around the streets of New York and all these. I was in a gayborhood. I was in Hell's Kitchen, which is predominantly gay in New York. And I'm walking by and all these beautiful men are passing me and I'm like, I will never be able to amount to this, but who the fuck cares?

Benji Schwimmer [01:09:19] So I set up my camera, I decided to improvise to a song called naturally by Sean McDonald. Ironically, he's a Christian artist, but his music is wonderful. And it was just like, I'm gonna love myself naturally, and I'm gonna love who I am naturally and not worry about it. And I decided to go full frickin Monty and just dance on it. And obviously I had to edit out, you know, my wiener and my butt. But. But yeah, it was very interesting to learn how to edit that because that's a skill to blur things out, but not blur the Whole body out. And it was great.

Benji Schwimmer [01:09:52] I felt so weird doing it. And I ended up improvising, I think for almost three hours in the shower and dancing. And it was funny to watch the earlier content vice the later content because I just learned to just not care. I wasn't flexing, I was just moving. I was expressing and it was great. And the song was looping over and over again. And I edited it, I posted it, and it was my way to say, look, I'm dealing with this. I'm scared as all hell to do this. I have a feeling that people will find this very unattractive and poor and bad.

John Dehlin [01:10:23] Or they might say you're just exhibitionist. You're just like dramatic. You're just trying to get attention.

Benji Schwimmer [01:10:29] Right, right.

John Dehlin [01:10:30] Diva or whatever.

Benji Schwimmer [01:10:31] Sure. If anything, yeah. I feel like it's going to be two very extreme sides of the spectrum. Right. And what's really interesting is I wrote a little bit about it afterwards and posted it. And for me, whether people believe it or not, like me doing that, it took a lot. It took a lot. And to watch it afterwards, A lot of what? It took a lot of just overcoming this fear. It took a lot of just ignoring that dark passenger that's in my head that says, this is embarrassing, you look terrible. And it was just to say, screw it, I'm not going to listen to that anymore.

John Dehlin [01:11:03] Like exposure therapy against your anxiety.

Benji Schwimmer [01:11:07] Against my anxiety, yeah. And so if people want to say that it was like this exhibitionist thing, fine. I mean, they can. And maybe there's something to that extent where you are seeking some sort of validation. I think we all do that in social media to an extent. But. But in your heart to press that send button to post it, that was really hard. I mean, like, like anxiety sweating hard. And I did that. I did a couple of photography shoots of me, like almost naked, tastefully so.

Benji Schwimmer [01:11:36] And then recently I did another one where I modeled for a very world renowned male figure artist named Jordan Mejias. He was just in cnn. He had a huge write up on like Bringing back the Male form and gay erotic paintings and this, that and the other. And I'm doing a book. I modeled for his book that he's doing and he's taking. I can't mention it, sorry. But it's a cool book. He's doing it. It's very tasteful. But he always has nude models. And the people that I've modeled from, I've watched his page. I was a fan of his work for years. And these are like Beautifully, perfectly toned, fit, built guys.

Benji Schwimmer [01:12:09] They're professional models. And he saw my dance video and he messaged me. He's like, benji, I see that you're in New York City right now. I would love for you to come and model for me if you feel comfortable. And I wasn't. And I'm like, I'll go and try it. Immediately I said, no, I can't do that. It's stupid. And then immediately before I hit that scent button, responding to him, I thought, no, this is my Dark Passenger. Who cares? Show my birthday suit. If people don't want to see it, they don't have to see it. Like, it's a specific page you can visit if you want to do it.

Benji Schwimmer [01:12:37] And I'm like, okay, I'm just going to go out and do it. I visited him. Long story short, we're sitting there in his studio loft in the West Village in New York, and he's 71 years old. Wonderful man. And he sat down and I'm like, is he going to tell me to take my clothes off now? Like, this is. How do we do this? What is going on? And he literally sat me down. We probably talked for two hours. So it's maybe midnight at this point, and I'm thinking, is he gonna try and offer me a drink? Like, what is he gonna do? You know, Nothing.

Benji Schwimmer [01:13:06] He just talked about life, talked about my family. And I realized he was disarming me. And he was totally disarming me. He was getting to know me a little bit as a person. And then he's like, well, if you wanna do this, we can. No big deal. If not, it was great to know you. And I'm like, no, let's do it. So I went full Monty. I pose, and I had to hit that position. We did like three or four pictures together. And you hit the pose for almost an hour. And I'll tell you this, much like, dancing is one thing, because at least I know I can move good, right?

Benji Schwimmer [01:13:36] I can control my body. But to be still and have one person drawing every nook and cranny of your body, it was so weird hitting that position at first. You're shaking, you're freaking out. He tapes your body in certain positions so that you won't move.

Benji Schwimmer [01:13:50] And I remember about 20 minutes into it, like, I just kind of exhaled. And there was something about being still, being vulnerable, letting that go. And it was wonderful. It was actually meditative for me, so going there was hugely cathartic. And afterwards, he shows me the picture, and it was one of those, like, and I'm sure he exaggerated or this, that, and the other. But to see what his eyes saw in my body as opposed to what my eyes see when I see my body. And he's like, I want you to see. This is exactly how I saw you. And he's like, benji, I'm a world renowned painter.

Benji Schwimmer [01:14:26] This is your body. And when I looked at it, I'm like, it wasn't my body. That's not me at all. Like, this is wrong, this is wrong, this is wrong. He's like, benji, this is your body and it's perfect. Doesn't matter if you have abs. Who cares? Cause I said, well, I don't do this and I don't have that. He said, no. He's like, you're perfect the way you are. And he just gave me this huge hug. I'm butt naked, by the way. And I'm just like, oh, my gosh. And it was just, it was this amazing experience for me. It was, it was transcendent for me, truly. And it was great.

John Dehlin [01:14:57] And to have another gay man not be sexualizing you and just. Yeah. What was. Was that? Is that anything nice?

Benji Schwimmer [01:15:03] It was wonderful. It was, it was normal, it was, it was calm. It was great. And he said, yeah, he's like, the next time, let's do another one. And we did different poses where I wanted to expose my flaws. I wanted to show my abs. I wanted to expose the fact that I feel like my legs are out of proportion to my body. And this, that, and the other. It was great. It was so cool. I'm like. And he said, well, what do you want to pose? And I'm like, well, I want to pose in ways that I don't feel comfortable. I want to pose and showcase and model what I don't feel comfortable showing. And we did that. It was the coolest therapeutic thing. So shout out to Jordan. He's.

John Dehlin [01:15:38] What's his name again?

Benji Schwimmer [01:15:39] Jordan? Mejias.

John Dehlin [01:15:40] Mejias. M E J N E J I

Benji Schwimmer [01:15:43] A S. Yeah, he's. He's a dear friend now. He's great. And so he's like my gay Yoda.

John Dehlin [01:15:48] I love him. He's amazing.

Benji Schwimmer [01:15:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:15:50] Let's check in with our listeners. Jen writes, if we could all only have that experience. How liberating.

Benji Schwimmer [01:15:58] Do it.

John Dehlin [01:15:59] Juliet writes, I love the name of his photographer. We just gave it to her. Julianne writes, benji, thank you so much for being so open and vulnerable. I'm amazed by you and your authenticity. Much love. Janine writes, so appreciate his Honesty and willingness to be so open and informative. Lynn Moore writes, the video is beautiful. So she's talking about. She must have seen the video that you posted. Shout out to Lynn. Hey, Lynn.

Benji Schwimmer [01:16:24] Hi. Lynn

John Dehlin [01:16:27] Lloyd writes, as a longtime competitive bodybuilder, I can relate to a lot of the story. Thanks for being so real, Benji.

Benji Schwimmer [01:16:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:16:34] Kat writes, I understand being your own worst critic. I do the same thing when I sing. Benji, you are amazing. You were my favorite part of so youo Think youk Can Dance.

Benji Schwimmer [01:16:43] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:16:43] Sorry, Benji.

Benji Schwimmer [01:16:44] No, it's okay. I don't care. It's fine. It's fine, guys. Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:16:46] Curtis writes, I find this discussion fascinating. Thank you so much. Really quickly, Natasha. Hey, Natasha. I don't know if you're still joining us, but Natasha Alfred Parker is on the line. She says we need these types of candid discussions with our gay youth. So I want to. I'm going to be vulnerable just for a second.

Benji Schwimmer [01:17:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:17:05] I, as you said the F word a couple times, talked about butt sex.

Benji Schwimmer [01:17:08] I'm sorry.

John Dehlin [01:17:09] No, no, no, no, no. I had this like, oh, my gosh, this is the thousandth episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Are we. And, but then, but then I thought, but that's just like the old me. Right. It's almost like the you who was scared about showing your body. Right. Like, why. I would just like to say, for you, for gay men, even for Mormons.

Benji Schwimmer [01:17:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:17:34] Why would it be useful to have a discussion about butt sex, about use the F word, about sexuality, about nakedness? Yeah, I, I think it's important.

Benji Schwimmer [01:17:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:17:43] And I want to hear, you know, I want to hear sort of like what you think the. Especially for our gay youth.

Benji Schwimmer [01:17:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:17:51] That are killing themselves in Mormonism, but out of Mormonism. It's probably not always easy.

Benji Schwimmer [01:17:57] It's not.

John Dehlin [01:17:57] Can you talk about why this is an important. I think this is an important discussion to have.

Benji Schwimmer [01:18:01] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:18:02] But I don't want to have to defend myself. Why do you think, as a gay man, ex Mormon, why do you think this might be a helpful conversation, not just for gay ex Mormon youth or even gay Mormon youth, but for allies and friends and family?

Benji Schwimmer [01:18:14] I think everybody needs to be educated on the other side of the field, the other team, but for especially the gay youth of the world. I think for me to say, if I were to speak like this and say, now when you're having anal sex or anal conilingus, if we're starting to use terms like that, it also starts putting it into this, like, professional sense. And I really feel like if you can see people, for instance, I know we're having a conversation that's being streamed right now, but if we're talking amongst friends, I feel like that's an easier way for the youth to relate. The fact that I can say the word and I spell it funny.

Benji Schwimmer [01:18:48] B U, T, S E C, K, S. It's just funny to say butt sex like that, like one word. There's actually a meme on it. Like a meme about that on the Internet. Anyways, I feel like dispelling the formalities of it and dispelling the naughtiness of it.

John Dehlin [01:19:03] Also the shame and the dirtiness. So much darkness, right?

Benji Schwimmer [01:19:06] Yeah, the darkness about it in particular. I feel like just to be a little bit more open about it and say, yeah, we have sex where people poop sometimes and not everybody does. There's a lot of actually homosexual couples that just don't like anal sex. And that's okay too. You know, they tend to use frauding, just rubbing against one another or they use toys, or they just do oral sex or, you know, other forms of mutual masturbation. And that's great too.

Benji Schwimmer [01:19:30] But I feel like we need to have this conversation, John, because here's the thing. Mormon Benjy, or immediately post Mormon Benjy would not be able to say this stuff right now. And I feel like I want my friends, my gay listeners, my non gay listeners to just treat this like a conversation. If we were talking one on one so that we don't have this formality because there's so much of a buffer and a front that we put up in the church that I think we need to let that go a little bit, to be a little bit more human. And so I do apologize to anybody watching right now if I've said anything because of my crass words, if it's coming off as offensive, it's not my intent, but it is my intent to be real, to be raw.

Benji Schwimmer [01:20:10] I do want to be respectful to our listeners, but ultimately it's about sexual. Like it's butt sex. So deal with it. Butt sex. Butt sets. Butt.

John Dehlin [01:20:17] Natasha says we need butt sex. Comments. What better place than the thousandth episode of Mormon Stories?

Benji Schwimmer [01:20:23] Yes, it took us a thousand episodes for butt sex. It's good.

John Dehlin [01:20:26] And Jen, Jen writes, I second that. And add that it is needed with our non gay youth. How in the world can this sort of conversation be healthy for non gay youth?

Benji Schwimmer [01:20:35] Well, I think for our non gay youth in particular, they need to understand that there's a whole other world if you have friends that are gay, family members that are gay, to understand that they have a whole other experience, a whole other navigation that they have to deal with that is not public. You know, we usually have sex ed at some point. We don't have gay sex ed. And I think it's important that, you know, at least 15% of the world might be queer or experiencing something like this. And it's important. On the flip side, can I just say, and I'm sure someone might mention this, but a lot of hetero men message me on Facebook all the time about how to have themselves rectally stimulated.

Benji Schwimmer [01:21:14] Prostate stimulation. How can I get my girlfriend, how can I get my wife to like, embrace that? How can I prepare for this for my wife? Because she wants to try putting a toy on or using that. Like, listen, the world is new right now, okay? And I feel like straight people can embrace a lot with what gay people do because the way we please ourselves as is a way that heterosexual people could please themselves as well. Right? So I feel like it's very important that we can have these dialogues. There's a little bit of an overlap here. There's much more of a close Venn diagram than two separate circles of what gay sex is and what it can be in the heterosexual world.

Benji Schwimmer [01:21:49] So straight people, gay people, somewhere in the middle, poly, whatever you are, whatever kind of level of fluidity you have, I think it's important to understand these things. My straight friends and I have conversations about gay sex all the time to help them, My straight friends.

John Dehlin [01:22:03] Natasha says women like it too.

Benji Schwimmer [01:22:04] They do. I was gonna say, like, butt sex is kind of fun and it's fun to explore. And my good friends ask me on tips on how to do that all the time. Like, it's great to have that conversation. And it's funny because I want to let people know this. Even with, like, my family, my mom, my dad, like, I'm very open to them about the sex that I have. And it's a very interesting thing as an adult. Like, we have these conversations. Some people don't talk about sex at all. But if I feel like, for instance, my cousins, they're all heterosexual or identifying heterosexual men, they're married, they talk about sex.

Sexuality, Identity, and Authenticity

Benji Schwimmer [01:22:36] Oh, I love my wife, love my boobs. They're so beautiful. They're all Mormon, you know, oh, yeah, I want that baby. And if they can say that in public, then I'm gonna talk about, yeah, you know, I love my boyfriend's butt. He's got the best ass. And I'm gonna say it in front of them. And I remember the first time we were at a holiday together and I finally did that, like it was crickets in the room. And then finally one of my cousins, she's like, right on, Benji. She's like, you get that. But like you enjoy that. And it's one of those things that I feel like we need to normalize this dialogue because it's unfair to censor us right. When you can talk about it amongst your friends.

John Dehlin [01:23:12] For sure. There's also just getting over being scared to talk about things. Like let's even take it one level higher.

Benji Schwimmer [01:23:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:23:19] We have body parts. Natasha says we all have butts.

Benji Schwimmer [01:23:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:23:22] But also we all have, we all have sex or most of us do. And we all sexual. We're all sexual. And there's even, let's just say BYU students that don't want to have intercourse but they're doing things like soaking, they're rubbing against each other.

Benji Schwimmer [01:23:34] Docking.

John Dehlin [01:23:35] Yeah, docking. There's, there's Levi loving, you know, there's, you know, and we just need to. The more we talk about things openly, sunlight's the best disinfectant. We learn, we do things safer, we do things healthier, we learn to have more fun. And even taking it out of sexuality, we just need to get over our hang ups to just be comfortable talking and being candid about what's real. And this is real.

Benji Schwimmer [01:23:59] It dispels a lot, doesn't it? Yeah, it is real. It's real, it's honest. And I'll say this, guys, for those of you that are like in even the chemistry between two different people, now that I've had. This sounds so weird to say, but now that I've had multiple sexual partners, it's interesting because our chemistry, me between one person and another, the dynamic of what they like or what we like together, you know, where our Venn diagram overlaps, you know, our rhythm, everything is different sexually with each person that you're with. And if it's, if you're repeating the same things and maybe you're not really intuitive as a lover.

Benji Schwimmer [01:24:33] So I think it's good to just always have that conversation about likes and wants. And I know that with the long term relationships that I've been in, things change over time. Sexually, you know, we develop or we explore or we don't like certain things that maybe we liked earlier on. Maybe it was the honeymoon phase, maybe we were being braver earlier on or the opposite. Maybe we're getting bored and it's a little plateau Y and so we want to change it up and spice it up a little bit. I think it's important. I think it's important to kind of have that dialogue with one another.

Benji Schwimmer [01:25:01] And, you know, ironically, Natasha, if you're listening still, I love you. She coached me for a very long time and helped me kind of transition out into the big, bad gay world. And she was very candid with me and wonderful. And I feel like a lot of the work that we did together has kind of brought this change in me to be more open and vulnerable and raw.

John Dehlin [01:25:21] So if you need a good sex therapist, natashaparker.org she's one of Mormonism's few certified sex therapists. Check her out. Yeah, love to Natasha. I'm going to just share a couple more comments people are making. Lisa writes, he is being his true self. He is communicating experience of how he found his true identity. It's an opportunity for others to see someone who is living his truth. He is happy. And as others out there, we need to accept that, learn from it, find a way in which we can be happy for people who have found their true happiness and can go on in life living their true reality and not living a life of pain and shame to make others happy, but living a fake reality in themselves. Wow, that's Lisa.

Benji Schwimmer [01:26:06] Thanks, Lisa.

John Dehlin [01:26:07] Elizabeth writes, I love that anal sex is being discussed. If we could discuss the more taboo aspects of sex and sexuality, we can help normalize the wealth of sexual identities and experiences out there which add so much richness to the world. Natasha likes to say, don't yuck my yum and. Yeah, and don't yum my yuck. In other words, let's be sensitive to each other's likes and dislikes.

Benji Schwimmer [01:26:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:26:34] And I think that goes beyond sexuality as well. Okay, so we've talked about sexuality. Let's talk about emotional intimacy and companionship. Now. Is there anything else you want to say about the people you've dated and the relationships you've had? You know, without hurting someone's feelings necessarily?

Benji Schwimmer [01:26:54] I think since just to finish more to cap off on the sexual aspect, you know, there's something that, that's prevalent in today's society. You know, gay men marginalize themselves all the time. And I would suggest to anybody that's venturing into the big bad world to really try hard to not subcategorize yourself often. Just be a human being, connect with other human beings. If someone wants to call you that, whether you want to correct them or not. I like to correct people. When someone subcategorizes me because I don't want that to be part of, like, our vernacular and how we're speaking with one another. I think it's important to establish those boundaries.

Benji Schwimmer [01:27:27] And here's the thing, too. A lot of people don't know what to say. A lot of heterosexual friends, sometimes they don't know how to engage conversations about knowing about that side of your life. And so it's important if they say something to kind of match it. I think that's a really great way to kind of gauge somebody's level of comfortability and to be always willing to answer questions. I think it's important and to correct when there's some sort of taboo thing mentioned or cliche thing that insults you.

Benji Schwimmer [01:27:54] I think there's a bigger source of heterosexism in the world than even homo or, sorry, than homophobia. I think that the feeling that straight people are still superior to gays is, I think, more rampant today because it's easier to say, look, I'm not a homophobe. I love gay people. But to still think that you're superior being a cisgendered male and female together because you can procreate, that's kind of a little pet peeve of mine. As well as in general, there's something that we call in the gay community called bottom shaming.

Benji Schwimmer [01:28:26] Where, like, if you see somebody that does something effeminate, for example, or something very stereotypically gay or even something just very vulnerable, like crying on camera, you go, oh, he's such a bottom, meaning he's the female in the relationship. He's the one that's being penetrated.

Benji Schwimmer [01:28:41] That's like a big thing right now. Bottom shaming is a bad thing. And look, look, it takes two to tango here. Somebody's got to be a bottom at some point. And what I would suggest is instead of saying that you are a top or you are a bottom, you can say that you prefer to do that as a sexual act as opposed to letting it be a label. Label an identity thing. That's a really big thing. A lot of younger youth message me about that specifically. So for those of you that are listening to this, I hope that gives you some clarity. Who cares? Like, you're wonderful either way.

Benji Schwimmer [01:29:11] And trust me, like, if we didn't have bottoms in the world or people that wanted to bottom, we wouldn't be having butt sex. So, like, you need this. Like, it takes, dude, it's amazing. Women are amazing. Men are amazing.

John Dehlin [01:29:22] It's offensive to women as well.

Benji Schwimmer [01:29:23] It's very offensive to Women. Speaking of that. So connecting all of that together, just I would say try at least at some point to try it all, you know, to get to a place where you can get past your hang ups or what you think you have a natural proclivity to and try it all a little bit. I feel like if you can have something in a relationship that's a little bit more give and take, I feel like that has a little bit more value and a little bit more double the intimacy that you can have. But find what you like and figure it out and communicate and it could change and it can evolve over time. There's nothing wrong with that. And stop it, stop it with those sub labels. It's just silly. Anywho, so you said, now we're talking about emotional, mental, just relationships.

Companionship, Love, and Heartbreak

John Dehlin [01:30:08] Is there anything you want to say about. Not the sex, but just companionship relationships? You've had what you've learned and I'm guessing the Mormonism is going to tie in a little bit.

Benji Schwimmer [01:30:18] I think it will. We can talk if you want to talk. We mentioned that a little bit last night. So I'm not going to give certain specifics just to kind of protect the innocent here, but I, I had a long term relationship, you know, a long term relationship. We'll just say that. Very long term. And interestingly enough, it wasn't very on paper, it's damaged. It was very damaged. It had a lot of problems with it. And what I fell victim to and I didn't even realize this, this is many years now after having left the church and you know, you're sleeping over at each other's houses, you're dating or you're living together, you bought a house, whatever it might be, you're together. I fell under a very interesting trap where I fell at one point into a loveless, sexless, intimacy free relationship, which

John Dehlin [01:31:11] I just have to know. We just spent all that time talking about sex.

Benji Schwimmer [01:31:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:31:14] And what I hear from all the gay people I talk to is being gay isn't predominantly about having sex.

Benji Schwimmer [01:31:19] No, it's not.

John Dehlin [01:31:20] You know, just like I don't run around saying I'm a heterosexual and I have heterosexual sex. I don't even think about it.

Benji Schwimmer [01:31:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:31:26] Once you get into your life, you're just living your life in a relationship.

Benji Schwimmer [01:31:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:31:31] And it's washing the dishes, it's cooking dinner, it's going to work, paying your taxes, it's. It's playing games, it's having fun, it's fighting, it's. Yeah, it's about a million things in addition to sex.

Benji Schwimmer [01:31:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:31:43] Or it can be about not having sex, because for any relationship, it's going to get old at some point as well.

Benji Schwimmer [01:31:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:31:49] So I just wanted to kind of preface it now. Jump in.

Benji Schwimmer [01:31:51] So I think that's great. And you're right. Like, it's such a small part of it all. And I feel like we just were especially younger people, like, with the libido kicking in. We think about sex all the time. I have a very high libido in general, so I think I'm a very sexual person in general. I'm high energy, I'm very affectionate. And I think because of that, whatever for whatever it means, like, that's. There's that. But, you know, especially when we're constantly thinking, don't think about sex. Don't think about your temptations. Fight that, fight that, fight that. The moment you leave Mormonism, you're free.

John Dehlin [01:32:22] Free.

Benji Schwimmer [01:32:23] And it's that rubber ball effect that you mentioned in the first podcast, where sometimes that rubber ball, once you drop it, it bounces up and everywhere. And listen, I had my fun. Like, I experimented. I explored safely, and it was a great thing. Like, it was a wonderful experience. And I connected in various ways with different individuals.

Benji Schwimmer [01:32:41] Not like I'm some sort of, like, uber whore or anything, but I lived and it was great. And I suggest everybody try it. I feel like there's a really awesome book called the Ethical Slut. Love that book. Try that one out anyways. But I am, at heart a monogamist. And so being in a relationship, I did. And I feel like people will fall under this problem at some point.

Benji Schwimmer [01:33:03] I was attracted to somebody, and I didn't realize this until fairly recently. I was attracted to an individual partner of mine because of the fact that there were some issues emotionally and psychologically with him where he didn't want to have sex at all, had to deal with depression and other issues, and didn't have sex. Couldn't tell me he loved me, couldn't hold my hand, didn't want to even kiss me good night. And what's funny is I stuck around long with this person.

John Dehlin [01:33:37] Like, more than a month.

Benji Schwimmer [01:33:39] A lot more. Try years. And because of my Mormon upbringing, in hindsight, and it wasn't until pseudo recently that I was having a conversation with him. I'm like, you know, I stuck around because of Mormonism, because I was taught for time and all eternity, you deal with something in this life, you're gonna have something in the next life. And even though I didn't use those Words in my head. I feel like the conditioning kept me there longer than I should have before we started to make some changes.

John Dehlin [01:34:09] So those Mormon hooks were deep, deep.

Benji Schwimmer [01:34:11] I was hanging on them. I was floating Mission Impossible style on them. And so what I've done recently to help fix that is I've written down on my phone every time I have like a visceral reaction or a conditioned reaction that I feel like Mormonism gave me. And it's been really nice to kind of identify. Oh my God. I still react to this scenario because of Mormonism. You know, you had the visceral response when I said fuck, right?

John Dehlin [01:34:40] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Benji Schwimmer [01:34:41] I still do fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck. Anyway, so, yeah, like, you know, it's just, it's insane that we still have these things.

John Dehlin [01:34:47] Now.

Benji Schwimmer [01:34:47] Granted, that could just be. I don't like foul language. I get it. But read the mother tongue and find out where the word fuck came from. And it's kind of funny. It's a toilet seat, Come on. Right? Like it's just a word. So does God say that's bad or does a society that voted for a Cheeto skinned man say that that's bad or. Anyways, that's a whole nother story.

Benji Schwimmer [01:35:05] But what I'm getting at, John, is I fell victim to complacency because Mormonism told me that gay love isn't real. Mormonism told me that I don't deserve gay sex. Mormonism told me that I don't deserve intimacy. Mormonism told me that I should feel alone. You should be sad, I should be sad. I should be broken, punished.

Benji Schwimmer [01:35:28] And so I fell victim into a long term relationship in that space. And the hardest part is this person. The reason why I fell for him is because he was such the antithesis to the typical gay community. He didn't want to sleep around, didn't want to sleep at all. But he's also a wonderful person on a side note, like many wonderful qualities, funniest person I've ever met. This, that and the other. But we fell under this. And I think I actually kind of became a crutch, an enabler of him to not get better. Because that's a psychological issue. That's an emotional thing that he should be working on, right?

Benji Schwimmer [01:36:03] And I think because I just stuck it out, you bite, grin and bear it. You white knuckle everything. You make it happen. A lot of cold showers, you make it work. And that's not right, right? So I even recently have fell victim to that. And I just wanted to let people know Sometimes you think when you're out, when you're finally drinking coffee, you're finally having sex, you know, you're free of the Mormon hooks, as you called them, right? You're not.

Benji Schwimmer [01:36:32] You're not. You could be so well adjusted, but there are still so many things that are interlaced and interwoven in your psyche, in every fiber of your being, right? Where it causes you to react in a way where you're still wearing those lenses of forced Mormonism, if you will. Not to say that all things in Mormonism are bad. Like, I think, John, you've done a really great job in showcasing the greatness of Mormonism as well. But in truth, it's done a number on me. And I can only imagine other people that don't have the resources, that are more closeted or that more wild, they don't have the ability to talk to a professional about this.

Benji Schwimmer [01:37:10] I can only imagine what they're going through and what their relationships are like. And some people have found it, some people have been able to clear themselves and rid it a lot faster than I think I have. But I also held on to Mormonism, like, to my nail beds. I held onto it. And so part of me, I think, never truly washed the nail beds out. You know, I had a rebound of Mormonism, and now I've had to cleanse relationships free of that conditioning.

John Dehlin [01:37:39] And that's seven years later, right?

Benji Schwimmer [01:37:41] Seven years later, let alone I went through change therapy for 12 years, let alone I went through therapy afterwards, that. That's seven years later. Insane, right? But I'm aware of it. And I've had my breakthroughs and had my breakdowns and I've dealt with heartbreak. And, you know, the biggest thing that I can say with relationships, in closing this chapter, if you will, is having a breakup or being hurt or being heartbroken after Mormonism, especially with me being a nonbeliever. It's interesting because you don't have the all will be made right in the back of your head. You can't compartmentalize. You can't have that almost cognitive dissonance of saying, like, things are gonna be better, like, in the next life.

Benji Schwimmer [01:38:23] I don't believe in that. So I have to deal with the pain now. I have to deal with the stains now. And I find that to be hard, difficult, but ultimately so much more beneficial in the long run for my quality of life as a person. In this life, the one that I know counts, the one that I know exists.

Benji Schwimmer [01:38:44] Like, I want that to count. And that's been a fascinating journey for me. So just be careful with that. Be aware of your triggers. Be aware of those hooks that still might be in you that you don't realize that you're dangling. Just be aware of that. Anybody that's listening.

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 1001

Benji Schwimmer [00:00:00] Sa.

John Dehlin [00:00:36] Let's talk about your religious, spiritual, secular journey and how Mormonism has evolved. Because Mormonism is different in 2018.

Benji Schwimmer [00:00:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:00:50] Than it, than, than it was in 2011.

Benji Schwimmer [00:00:53] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:00:54] Right.

Benji Schwimmer [00:00:55] So different.

John Dehlin [00:00:55] And you, you mentioned a trip to Oaxaca.

Benji Schwimmer [00:00:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:00:59] And I don't know if you want to tie that in. Have we talked about that yet?

Benji Schwimmer [00:01:02] We haven't yet.

John Dehlin [00:01:03] Okay.

Benji Schwimmer [00:01:03] I want to tie in.

John Dehlin [00:01:04] I don't know if that's. Is that spiritual? Is that Mormon related?

Benji Schwimmer [00:01:06] It's very spiritual.

John Dehlin [00:01:07] Let's start. Do you want to start there? And then we'll talk about your spiritual Mormon journey?

Benji Schwimmer [00:01:10] That'll be part of it.

John Dehlin [00:01:11] Okay. Okay.

Benji Schwimmer [00:01:12] Yeah. So spirituality.

Spiritual Beliefs After Leaving the Church

John Dehlin [00:01:14] So at the time we interviewed, do you remember if you believed in God or Jesus or other churches or any of that stuff?

Benji Schwimmer [00:01:20] What I had said, I think on Mormon stories at the time is I use this analogy just right there on the spot, and I think it works. I had this glass globe in my hand of the world and I saw the continents and I saw everything. And this is my worldview. And the moment that I left, I dropped, shattered. And I, bit by bit, had to pick up the pieces and ask myself, do I believe in this? Is this real? Is this conditioned? What is my heart say? What does my instincts say? What does science say about this? What does Carl Sagan say about this?

Benji Schwimmer [00:01:50] Right. And so I'm looking at these things and. And I think at the time I was in a space where I didn't know if God exists. I think I believed in some sort of intelligent design. I did not believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet. I did not believe that Jesus of Nazareth was really the savior of the world, if he existed at all.

Benji Schwimmer [00:02:15] So I didn't know. It's not that I had a firm belief other way. You, yes or no, but at the time, I was just really holding onto. Something's out there cosmically, and I feel like it's pulling me, it's guiding me. Maybe it's just my subconscious kind of yelling at me, who knows? Right. But I was open. I was very open to believing anything. And for a while I went through that staunch atheist, angry Mormon kind of journey where it's like, ah, screw it all. Like, I don't believe in any of this. There's nothing. It's all about science and this, that and the other. And now I'm in a space personally where I think I've gotten to be a little bit more like Buddhist in my beliefs, like where I just believe in putting an output of just being kind, helping others.

Benji Schwimmer [00:02:58] And hoping that that karma comes back your way. And if not, deal with it with peace, deal with it with love. I truly feel like there's not one person in this world that should say, I know. I feel like that's just really silly to me.

Benji Schwimmer [00:03:15] I do believe in science. I'm a huge astrophysics nerd. I usually go to be watching or listening to podcasts on astrophysics and even like theoretical quantum physics, theoretical physics in general. And I like hearing that stuff. I like hearing the what ifs. That fascinates me more than people telling me the what is, the what is is of the world. Because I don't believe that anybody really knows. And I'm okay with that. That's the one thing that right now that I'm at. Like as much as I don't believe in a God, but if, if there's other evidence to prove to the contrary, great. And I'd be open minded.

Benji Schwimmer [00:03:47] I'm open minded enough to just say, I'm willing, I'm willing to listen. But I don't subscribe to a faith or a movement or this, that and the other. A lot of my Mormon friends, my good friend Brady, he, he joined, I think a Universal Unitarian, kind of, Universalist kind of church or movement. He invited me to it one time. I could not do it. I stayed out in the parking lot. I didn't need that kind of community. I have friends, I have family. I don't need that community. You know, I have the dance community, I have other communities. I play basketball. You know, I.

Benji Schwimmer [00:04:20] That to me is enough community for me. I don't need to congregate on a Sunday or a Saturday to feel the need to be spiritual. Interestingly enough, I have a lot of friends that tell me you should really try meditation. That's another thing, just to listen to yourself. And I love that. I'm also so high energy and I'm so anxious and so add that for me, I would do better walking, running, working out at the gym, putting on good music, going for a drive and just turning off everything and listening, even improvisational dancing. I feel like I'm in tune with myself. I'm in tune with the universe.

Benji Schwimmer [00:04:55] And I find my spirituality is founded in things that I've always had. It's funny. It's funny, John. I remember competing in dance competitions as a kid, as a teenager, as an, as an early adult, before I left Mormonism, before I lost my testimony.

Benji Schwimmer [00:05:10] And I felt the spirit when I performed, right? I feel that same spirit now. I feel that same energy now. I feel it stronger now.

John Dehlin [00:05:18] What if someone says, you can't because you left the church?

Benji Schwimmer [00:05:20] Well, then they can go suck it. I don't care. Yeah, because I left the church. But, you know, it's ironic.

John Dehlin [00:05:26] So what is it? Is it the spirit or is it something else?

Benji Schwimmer [00:05:28] I just feel like it's probably a wonderful boost of endorphins that our brain is sending. You know, I believe it's probably a lot of just positive something or other. It's that feeling. We get that when we watch something beautiful. We watch that when we get the chills. We get those feelings all the damn time. We get that when we're in love with people. I've gotten that when I've fallen for men, right? That same feeling that I did when I testified of Joseph Smith when I was preaching to the beautiful people in Oaxaca. I felt that same feeling when I was in the temple, when I was having sex with somebody. I felt that same feeling. It's that eight ball beautiful feeling that you feel. We've all felt it. We're all humans. It's endorphins. You know, it's adrenaline.

John Dehlin [00:06:12] It's what's making you feel emotional right now.

Benji Schwimmer [00:06:14] It's dopamine. The fact of that, it's even just saying it out loud. The fact that you're asking me this, it's that realization that it's always been the same feeling, and it's a manipulative tactic. You feel that right now. That's because God's saying that it's true

John Dehlin [00:06:29] and the church is true, and the

Benji Schwimmer [00:06:30] church is true, and Joseph Smith was a prophet, et cetera, et cetera. It's all connected to this chain reaction. No, you were probably singing just a beautiful hymn. No, that story about that sick woman that you helped in sacrament meeting, that touched me, right? It's not saying that Joseph was a prophet. That's silly. That's truly silly to me. God, you know, watching the, you know, Que Hermoso. How's it in Spanish or in English? Sorry. I still think more in Spanish when it comes to church stuff. But, you know, even watching the first vision videos, right? They're beautifully done. They're amazing. Of course you're gonna feel good about it, right?

Benji Schwimmer [00:07:08] I felt the same when I watched Schindler's List. You know, like, you feel the same beautiful feeling, and it's a completely different context. So for me, that feeling, that spirit has never left. If anything, I feel that same beautiful, sweet spirit. So someone could say, to play John's devil advocate, right?

Benji Schwimmer [00:07:27] Well, maybe you never had the spirit to begin with, and you were always an apostate, and that's the devil. Fine. If you really want to go and stretch that that much and sleep at night feeling a little better about yourself, go for it.

John Dehlin [00:07:41] I mean. Yeah. Does the name Araceli Ruvalcaba mean anything? I am a witness that Benji was a really good missionary in Oaxaca. He went above and beyond. He was not an average missionary. I also believe in being good, kind, and fight for happiness in this life. Whatever your happiness is, someday we'll know the truth. Maybe let's just be good and be happy. But you were a good missionary. You were a faithful believing Mormon.

Benji Schwimmer [00:08:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:17] We've got testimony here live. And you were feeling the same thing that Mormons feel because you were devout at the time. And you're saying that you still feel those things.

Benji Schwimmer [00:08:27] I still feel those things. You know, Araceli, love you. I love your family so much. Say hi to Izzy and your parents and everyone. Just, hi.

Reflecting on Missionary Service

John Dehlin [00:08:36] How was. How do you.

Benji Schwimmer [00:08:37] So they were a family in one of my. One of my wards that I served in. Her dad was the stake president.

John Dehlin [00:08:42] Is it weird to have her watching now?

Benji Schwimmer [00:08:43] No, it's not. Like, in fact, like, we. We message each other on, like, social media and whatnot. I'm. I'm still really close with a lot of the families in Oaxaca that I met, and I think that can kind of segue into something. And I think she's going to appreciate this story. She's moved. She doesn't live in Oaxaca anymore. I think you guys live in Utah now. But either way, El Bosque. That was the word. El Bosque and El Iscotel. I served in two wards at the same time. We call it El Bosque Tech. But what happened? I decided a couple of years ago. I went through a really, like, emotional journey in a competition two years ago where I did a piece about that love that I had mentioned earlier that was loveless, that relationship that I was in.

Benji Schwimmer [00:09:24] And I spent almost six months. Six months just trying to get to a place where I could be emotional and strong enough to perform this piece. And it was talking about not being loved. And so I was so emotionally tired that.

Benji Schwimmer [00:09:41] So I was so emotionally tired and drained from the experience that after I competed, my brain and my body were just done. My emotions were done. It was so raw. It was so truthful and real that I just was so tired. And I'm like, I need to go on a vacation. And I had about a week for myself to lock it up and to go on vacation and to go somewhere. So I had this feeling that I really wanted to go visit the areas of my mission and I decided to book a last minute ticket to Oaxaca, Mexico.

Benji Schwimmer [00:10:17] For those of you that didn't listen to the first Mormon Stories video, I, I was in a space emotionally where to this day like Oaxaca. And the experience was so beautiful and the people there were so amazing. And to be a missionary there was truly one of the greatest experiences of my life. Even to this day, I don't regret one minute, I don't regret one second, one interaction, one lesson given, one baptism, one anything, because it was truly a beautiful experience amongst the most amazing people I've ever met in my entire life. And I don't know if many people can say that being an ex Mormon, a lot of people run away from the communication of the people that they, they spoke to.

Benji Schwimmer [00:11:00] I knew from interacting with some people. I got a couple of nasty letters in Spanish because it took a couple of years after the Mormon stories posting for people to translate, I guess like the transcripts of my interview in Spanish. And there was another stake president from a different warden stake that sent a letter out actually to all the families at the stake saying if, if Benji Schwimmer, if Elder Schwimmer comes and visits you to run away from him because he's an apostate and he'll preach against the church and he'll make you leave the church. And he's a dangerous man spiritually. And so I got a message, I got a message from a friend of mine who was Mormon in Oaxaca and he sent me this letter saying, I just wanted to forward this to you, man.

Benji Schwimmer [00:11:45] I don't know if you're planning on coming, but just be careful, you might be rejected. And I don't want your heart broken because I know how much you love the Oaxacan people. And I decided to go anyways. So I went there, John. It was the funniest thing. I had a full beard, like I was training. I looked like Rocky Balboa in like Rocky 4 when he's like Ivan Drago, like just hearts on fire lifting rocks in Siberia. And I didn't look anything like my squeaky clean Mormon missionary self, right? And I went down there and I was shaking, I was trembling the entire time and I was listening.

Benji Schwimmer [00:12:15] And I brought pictures on my ipod and iPhone rather. And as soon as I land, like it was immediate nostalgia. And ironically I landed on a Sunday, right? So I'm walking around and I. And I'm like, this is crazy to be here. This is so weird. And Oaxaca is separated in seven regions, a lot of different indigenous tribes. But I was in the main city at the time, and I'm like, I'm going to go visit the temple. And like, it's Sunday, there's a chapel next to it. I've never been back to church. I know somebody asked that in the questions if I've ever returned to the church.

Benji Schwimmer [00:12:45] I never have, but I'm like, maybe I'll go visit a Oaxacan ward just to see what it feels like to see the missionaries. I was waxing really poetic at the time. And so I walked in there and I'm like, okay. I had like T shirt and jeans on. I had tattoos all over my arms. And I'm thinking, gosh, I feel really weird going in. So I broke the Sabbath and I went to a Chedraui, which is like a supermarket, Walmart kind of hybrid. And I bought like a white dress shirt, pants, and a tie. I went full Mormon missionary. I still had a beard. And ironically, I didn't know this, but I think Russell M.

Benji Schwimmer [00:13:21] Nelson was actually speaking via satellite at the time. So nobody was at the church building. It was completely empty. So I walked in this church room by myself and explored all around temple, and I took pictures. And out of nowhere, I. I started realizing, like, I can't do this. Like, I don't want to see the families that I loved because I don't want to break their hearts. You know, if they knew that I left the church, that's fine. But not a lot of them reached out to me. So I figured maybe they had their peace with me. And I didn't want to, like, I didn't want to be like a heretic.

Benji Schwimmer [00:13:53] I didn't want to be an apostate. I didn't want to shake their foundations of faith that they believed in. That's not my place, that's not my intention. And so I thought I bought a telephoto lens and I was just gonna spy on them. Like, I was gonna, like, be fully incognito and just like visit their houses and like, just see them. I rented a car. Maybe I'll just drive with, like face down, baseball cap on. And as I'm getting into my car, leaving the temple, I hear, and this is the weirdest story, guys, it's beautiful. I hear Elder Twimmer. Elder, they called me Twimmer with a ch.

Benji Schwimmer [00:14:32] And out of nowhere, I look to my left and there's this. This beautiful man just running towards me, tears in his eyes. He was a block and a half away from me. He was coming out of the stake center building, running towards me. He recognized me from, I mean, yards, yards, yards away.

John Dehlin [00:14:50] And years. How many years?

Benji Schwimmer [00:14:51] 12.

John Dehlin [00:14:52] Yeah.

Benji Schwimmer [00:14:52] No, no more. Oh my gosh. 2003, 2004, 2005. April. April 27, 2005 is when I came home from my mission.

John Dehlin [00:15:00] And this was what year?

Benji Schwimmer [00:15:02] This is two years ago.

John Dehlin [00:15:04] So 2016. So 11 years later.

Benji Schwimmer [00:15:06] 11 years later. Okay, so I'm sitting there like. And he's like, runs up to me and this guy gives me a hug and I look and it's Miguel. And I baptized him, but he lived in like a village 12 hours away in a bus ride. And I looked at him like, what are you doing here? And he just gives me this hug. He's like, I knew it was you. He's like, by, like the way you were standing, it was you. And I'm like, this guy just ran up to me and gave me a hug. And I looked at him and I'm like, hey. And he looked at my arm and he saw the tattoos and he.

Benji Schwimmer [00:15:35] You could see like his brow kind of changed. And I was immediately expecting to just be like, I wasn't gonna backpedal, but I just immediately knew I was gonna be probably rejected. And he looked at me and he looked at my tattoos, he looked at me, he looked at the beard. And he jumps up and he gives me another hug and he's like, brother, I know what happened. He's like, we translated your Mormon stories video. And he's like, everybody wants you to come back. And I'm like, but what about the letter? He's like, we've all got the letter and nobody cares. He's like, we want Elder Schwimmer to come visit.

Benji Schwimmer [00:16:08] Dammit, I'm gonna cry. Shoot, John. Damn you. And it was so, so incredibly beautiful to be an openly gay man, to be an openly non believing member, you know, ex Mormon, to visit his village. Tattoo wielding, tattoo wielding, beard yielding. Yeah. So I actually ended up shaving the second day I got there just because it was so damn hot. And I was getting hives from it, which made me even look that much more Mormon, which was hysterical.

Benji Schwimmer [00:16:44] And I got there and other than that one stake president who wrote said letter, I drove 12 hours. And by the way, Miguel was getting married. And so he was staying there for the week. He was going to have a. He was getting married out there in Oaxaca City. He was getting sealed in the temple and it was Just so wonderful to connect with him. But I remember he was just a wonderful guy, and he was so sweet. Like, talk about a serendipitous moment. Those are those moments where it's like, I can't say I'm a staunch atheist, because what are the odds that I'm gonna spy on these people?

Benji Schwimmer [00:17:15] They're not gonna see me. Elder Schwimmer comes to the village. Come see everybody. And John, you know what was beautiful is this to the viewers. I went and, like, I went with all these people, and at one point, I got a little hotel room in the same place that I stayed when my parents came to pick me up in Oaxaca. It was wonderful. And we. I walked around the streets by myself. It was weird to walk in Oaxaca alone because you're always used to the companion. And. And at one point, somebody from every ward that I was at accompanied me. Like, kind of just took me around the house as if somebody moved.

Benji Schwimmer [00:17:49] They showed me where they were at, and I remembered everybody by name. They remembered me. We would hug, we would cry, we would share stories. I talked about my partner, my life partner at the time. I talked about being in a relationship. And they just kind of sat there and they all just smiled, and they said, well, we're happy if you're happy. And it was never a passive aggressive, like, sweet spirit, oh, bless your heart kind of comment. It was truthful.

Benji Schwimmer [00:18:13] And I sat there and the missionaries. I went on splits. I went on splits with the missionaries to show all my less active people that I'd baptized that weren't going. Like, it was the weirdest thing, John. It was so freaking beautiful. And it was like, here, visit these people, because the missionaries can help you. And what I learned was this. And this is why I can still keep my mission and. And be happy with everything about my mission that I did. Whether I believe in the church or not, I don't. But whether I believe or somebody else believes, it's one thing. But what I learned is some people need church.

Benji Schwimmer [00:18:47] Some people need that community, and it betters their lives, especially in a place in certain areas as impoverished as Oaxaca is. You know, in some places, it's. You know, we ate bugs. Like, we ate a kuna matata. Like, in some. Instead of taco meat, we had tortillas and crickets. And so to see these people active and social and finding a sense of community, it was wonderful, because I think I went there almost anti religion, almost anti church, almost anti everything. And to see these beautiful people, it made me realize that there's a place and a space for everyone. As long as they're not hurting others, it's okay.

Benji Schwimmer [00:19:26] And I left with a huge, profound sense of peace and gratitude, validation for the two years that I gave up of my real life to do this. And I wouldn't take it back. I would never give back my two years. I was meant to be there. I was grateful that I was there and I was so grateful to have returned. On a funny side note, for those of you that are ex Mormons, so rub Alcaba family, please cover your ears in this moment. I made a list.

Benji Schwimmer [00:19:53] I made a list of all the things that I couldn't do in the white handbook. And I wanted to break every single thing. Cause I was a good missionary and I broke it. I had coffee every morning. I tried tequila when I was there. I went swimming in the beach. I went to a nude beach.

Benji Schwimmer [00:20:10] It was amazing. What else did I do? I hugged all the members. I hugged women. It was great. I kissed somebody on the mouth. It was just amazing. It was so nice to bring break that weird block that I still was feeling. And it was wonderful to explore that. I actually posted a picture years ago of me standing in the nude beach in Zipolite, which is in one of the areas that I served in my mission. And I remember we couldn't be in Zipolite because it was filled with gays and drug addicts. Well, one of those things was true for sure. But it was great.

Benji Schwimmer [00:20:45] So, yeah, Oaxaca was a wonderful experience, both the first time I I went and the most recent time I went. And I'm coming back in December and hopefully I'll get to bring a significant other with me, which will be, I think, the next step in getting to know people and who I am now as a person. But it was, it was a wonderful experience. It was life changing again. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:09] So many, many men and women who leave the LDS Church and had served missions, one of the areas that sometimes they experience with regret is like, I can't believe I brought other people into the church. Yeah, I want to go. And sometimes they'll have the impulse to want to go back and deconvert them all.

Benji Schwimmer [00:21:29] No, I didn't.

John Dehlin [00:21:30] And what you're saying is that you don't regret bringing those people into the church and you feel like for them, for many of them, it's still a good thing.

Benji Schwimmer [00:21:40] Yeah, yeah. Like my friend Kike, he was my elders quorum president in one of my, my wards. He and his wife saw the Mormon Stories video and they left. They left the church. And so I'm more of the belief. It's like, yeah, I would probably rather want people outside of the church if they can find a safe space to live in and be happy and fulfilled. But ultimately I respect people's choices as much as I hope they respect my choices. And the.

Benji Schwimmer [00:22:11] What I loved is that, like, when I went there, about half the people that I knew, some of them stayed, Some of them are active, some of them are inactive, some of them are believing, some of them are non believing. Because like you said, John, the church has changed over the last seven years. And there's a lot of gay rights issues that are starting to pop up in Mexico in particular, where there's a huge concentration of LDS people. And so, yeah, Kike and Mari in particular, like, I sat down and I actually had coffee with them. It was great. We had breakfast together and we had coffee.

Benji Schwimmer [00:22:40] Another member, like, we did shots of tequila together. And I don't even really drink very often at all, but it was really cool. And she was my mommy, meaning she would cook our food in one of our areas. And she left the church. She was dismayed by it and she left it on her own recognizance. Had nothing to do with me. So I embrace anybody like these people I love. And my love is unconditional, truly. And I know that these people's love towards me is the same. There is no condition. We connected as people.

Benji Schwimmer [00:23:10] I am. Cut my veins. Like I say this in Spanish, corte meves venas es e salemole in ves de sangre. Like, you cut my veins and like Oaxacan mole comes out instead of blood. And I love these people and they know that I love them and I feel their love in return. And I feel like you can't break that because I made a choice to leave. That doesn't change. And it only changed for maybe one or two people. And some of those people left. I don't know if it was because of me or not. Maybe. Maybe the Mormon story's bug was planted in some of them.

Benji Schwimmer [00:23:39] And if they see if I can leave that, maybe they should too. If they do, fine. If they don't, fine. I love them either way. And it's same thing with just my friends and family that are active or not. Like, I'm okay with either or it doesn't bother me either way. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:55] Love it.

Benji Schwimmer [00:23:56] Yeah.

The Church's Policies Toward LGBT Members

John Dehlin [00:23:57] Okay, so let's talk about the church and its policies with LGBT people. So. So there was Prop 8.

Benji Schwimmer [00:24:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:08] Which. And. And you were. Where were you in your phase during Prop 8?

Benji Schwimmer [00:24:13] Well, Prop 22 I was, I was, I was knocking doors.

John Dehlin [00:24:16] So you're in California?

Benji Schwimmer [00:24:18] Yes. Yeah. And what grade about Prop 22? I was, I was right before mission, I was pre mission.

John Dehlin [00:24:24] So pre mission, Pre Prop A premission. The church is trying to influence same sex marriage in California. You're doing what?

Benji Schwimmer [00:24:32] We were knocking on doors and trying to get people to be part of the movement.

John Dehlin [00:24:36] As a closeted.

Benji Schwimmer [00:24:38] Yeah, as a hugely conflicted individual. It's funny, When I was 18 though, I was so pilas. I was so focused on being a missionary. Like the whole gay thing wasn't even a factor at all. Actually on a side note too though, one thing that was interesting is when I got back from my mission and Prop 8 started happening, I was actually co starring in an independent film film at the time and we were shopping it around at all the festivals and I played a gay man in the movie. It was called Leading Ladies. I think it's on Netflix. Don't watch it, it's bad. But yeah, I co starred in that film as a gay man.

Benji Schwimmer [00:25:12] And it was always the question that they would ask at the end. Like you being a Mormon, we see on your IMDb page that you're a Mormon missionary and this, that and the other. How can you find a balance playing a gay man? And do you support same sex marriage? And it was very. I was caught off guard because the funny thing with me is inside I was saying, personally I don't want same sex marriage to happen because it's gonna make it that much more tempting to leave. You mean I can have everything that you guys have other than a temple marriage?

Benji Schwimmer [00:25:45] That's tempting. Like I didn't want it for me because of that. So I understood it. But on the flip side, every gay person that left the church and I saw them get married, I was so happy for them. Like I didn't judge anybody that left the church. I thought it was actually a great thing because I believed in the atonement for them, but not for myself apparently. And I was horribly, horribly conflicted with Prop 8. And I remember my bishop who knew that I was a struggling, you know, same sex attraction person who has a big old homo. He told me he asked me to donate a sizable amount of money.

Benji Schwimmer [00:26:18] And he said, he's like, I'm gonna challenge you to write a check right now in front of me to donate to the cause. He's like, I think you need to do that. I'm feeling prompted that you need to do that. And so I remember I always keep a check just in case I have to do something for tithing, like a blank check in my scriptures. So I opened it up and I started writing and I'm like.

Benji Schwimmer [00:26:36] And I looked at him and I folded the. I don't think we talked about this in the first interview, did we? And I remember folding the check. I said, I can't do this. I don't feel right doing this. My hands were trembling.

Benji Schwimmer [00:26:48] And he's like, he's like, well, he's like, you need to pray about it. And it just didn't feel right. And I wish I could have been at the time. I wish I was already out. I wish I could have been more vocal, you know what I mean? Had Prop 8 started to happen at the time when I did the Mormon Stories podcast, like, I would have, like, let's make a charge here and talk about it. But I did it and. And I regret that, but I just wasn't emotionally, spiritually, or physically, mentally ready to do that at the time. You know, as much as I wanted to be a cause for this and a cause for that, I needed to just wait till it was right for me.

John Dehlin [00:27:25] Yeah. And so then, then it seemed like approaching 2012. And you did your interview in 2011. Yeah. That the church, it seemed to me like the church was kind of backing off the issue.

Benji Schwimmer [00:27:38] It did.

John Dehlin [00:27:39] And by 2011, Mitt Romney's going to run for president against Obama.

Benji Schwimmer [00:27:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:44] And it seemed like the church didn't want any PR fiasco. And so, so, you know, there was this time where it's like, oh, maybe the church is going to kind of like it learned its lesson with Prop 8.

Benji Schwimmer [00:27:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:56] It realized that it backfired. It realized that it's a problem. It's, you know, it caused a lot of people to leave the church.

Benji Schwimmer [00:28:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:05] And it made the church look mean and vicious. And so we had this sort of little, little few years where we're thinking, wow, maybe, maybe we're gonna kind of go back and just kind of let this die. Right?

Benji Schwimmer [00:28:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:17] And then, and then the Supreme Court kind of stuff happened. So talk about what that was like to have same sex marriage legalized across the country for you. Do you remember that?

Benji Schwimmer [00:28:28] I do remember that.

John Dehlin [00:28:30] And have a start in Utah.

Benji Schwimmer [00:28:31] Yeah, I know, right? Of all places. Right. Yeah. I remember in particular the pictures of like, J. Seth Anderson getting married. Right. To Michael Ferguson. And those were great. Just to see those images of people on that first day getting married, it was wonderful. I was elated because at that Point, you know, for me, it was just like, this is something that we can do. This is real, like we're valid. It's that seal of approval that we've been accepted. You know, the diagnostic manual does not say that we're crazy or mentally ill anymore. This is wonderful. We can celebrate that. You know, for me though, it was funny because at the time I wanted, when I first left, when I did the whole Mormon stories thing, I wanted babies, I wanted kids, I wanted a family, I want this, that and the other.

Benji Schwimmer [00:29:12] I wanted the white picket fence with just a guy with my arm over him. Right. That's the only difference. And then my thoughts and my beliefs and who I was dating really affected whether I was wanted kids or a family or this, that and the other. And I've actually kind of returned back to I want kids, I want a family, I want a fun life with a partner.

Benji Schwimmer [00:29:30] And for me, when it was, when it was taken away again, I thought that, yeah, it was just seeing like the masks were taken off. Like you can kind of see what's really fueling this movement in this situation. And it was a really sad time for me.

Benji Schwimmer [00:29:48] The thing with me though, is I was always more concerned with just like my interpersonal relationships with a partner as more so than what a state can recognize as marriage or not. Like, to me, I want it, we deserve it, we should have it. I'll fight for it, but no one can tell me if I can or cannot be with somebody ultimately. Right? So like no matter what happens with the Supreme Court, when it happened, I didn't feel like anything was truly taken away from me because my love is my love and I'm going to, I'm going to have it no matter what.

Benji Schwimmer [00:30:17] But that's just my personal belief. But I understand what it represents and I understand the larger picture of it all, like, you know, thinking a little bit more meta. It's different. It's different, obviously, but personally, for me, it didn't shatter my heart. I was enraged, but I didn't feel heartbroken about it more so anything. When the policy changed more recently, the policy, when that changed, that broke me.

John Dehlin [00:30:39] Okay, so we get same sex marriage across the country in earlier in 2015, if my remembers correctly.

Benji Schwimmer [00:30:47] I think so, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:48] And then November 2015 happens.

Benji Schwimmer [00:30:50] Talk about that, that when November, when the policy changed, when that was presented, I felt like that was the church doubling down, right. That was really basically what they said to me. Now you've talked about this at length. What do I know, right? I count to eight For a living. But from my perspective, and having seen the behind the scenes of. With the church, you know, the church has extended offers to re. Baptize me privately. They've. They've wanted me to do this. This.

John Dehlin [00:31:17] You haven't told us about your resignation yet, so.

Benji Schwimmer [00:31:19] Oh, we haven't even gotten there. Okay. So that's. That's.

John Dehlin [00:31:21] No but. No but just like. So did you resign at some point?

Benji Schwimmer [00:31:24] I did.

John Dehlin [00:31:25] Okay.

Benji Schwimmer [00:31:25] I've. I've been trying to resign since Mormon stories.

John Dehlin [00:31:28] Oh.

Benji Schwimmer [00:31:29] And they've not.

John Dehlin [00:31:29] What do you mean? So talk about that.

Benji Schwimmer [00:31:30] This actually kind of connects with the story. So I had the. When we did Mormon stories, I had always already sent in my letter of resignation.

John Dehlin [00:31:37] 2011.

Benji Schwimmer [00:31:38] 2011. So, yeah, April 27, 2011, I mailed it in, and when I did, I expected to get something in return. I never did. The church withheld my resignation for years. And every month I would send in another letter. I would send it to a bishop, a stake president, and directly to Salt Lake, the same damn copy.

John Dehlin [00:31:58] And you wanted to resign why?

Benji Schwimmer [00:32:00] Because. And it wasn't a matter of believing. I wanted to resign before I made the choices, before I made the choice to break the law of chastity, to break these things, despite the fact I didn't really believe it.

Benji Schwimmer [00:32:12] I made covenants, I made promises. And as a matter of principle, I wanted to start with a clean slate. I didn't want to have coffee knowing that I was still a member of the church. I didn't want my life. I didn't want me seeking love to feel like an act of rebellion. And I felt like still being a member symbolized that a little bit. And for most people, they're like, I don't care. Like, whatever. But I also didn't want my number, my name, as to be part of the masses. When they say, how many people are a member of this huge conglomerate of people? It's not true.

Benji Schwimmer [00:32:44] You know, as you've done in other podcasts, like we've. There's so many lying, so much inflation of numbers and membership. We're not. They're not as powerful of an entity as they project and present. And I'm not a part of that. Rough stone rolling. Sorry, I'm not. And you can't count my name as a part of that. You can give me this asterisk. I'm gonna put it on my neck and represent myself and say, I can love whoever I want. I will have kids. I can work with kids. I do every day. Right.

John Dehlin [00:33:12] So to remind our listeners who hear you did an asterisk.

Benji Schwimmer [00:33:16] Yeah, I got a. Because of the asterisk program that they put on my church membership records, I actually got a tattoo of the asterisk here in the back of my neck.

John Dehlin [00:33:24] Okay.

Benji Schwimmer [00:33:24] And it's basically to say that I'm going to live my life. I'm going to mark my body up. You think you can mark my records up? I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to change my temple and I'm going to, I'm going to love, I'm going to have as much butt sex as I want, and I'm going to love who I want. I'm going to have kids. I'm going to work with kids every day, and you can't take that away from me. So, yeah, long story short with when the policy change happened, I kind of.

John Dehlin [00:33:47] So you kept trying to resign.

Benji Schwimmer [00:33:48] And I gave up on it. Ultimately, I thought maybe this is just a lost cause. Maybe they already removed my records. But I still kept getting calls from bishops and missionaries and this, that and the other. Every time I had an address change, they knew somehow. So the Gestapo of Mormonism was still kind of stalking me. And so for me, what I decided to do is after the, after people started going to marching in Salt Lake, after the policy change, when I found out some of the kids that I'd worked with through affirmation and circling the wagons, when I found out that a lot of these kids had started to take their lives because of the situation, I felt like I needed to act. And so a couple of buddies of mine, we organized a big group of people to meet in Salt Lake, and we didn't leave until they offered our resignation letters.

John Dehlin [00:34:33] What year is this about?

Benji Schwimmer [00:34:34] This is 2015. End of 2015. Okay. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:37] So like December, like after the November policy.

Benji Schwimmer [00:34:40] It was, it was, it was after the November policy. Oh, it's 2016. I'm sorry. Yeah, it was 2016. It was winter, so it must have been like January, February, something like that.

John Dehlin [00:34:49] And you're all, this is how many people?

Benji Schwimmer [00:34:51] I think at the time there's a big group, about 75 people.

John Dehlin [00:34:54] But there were like gay men or just friends people. Okay.

Benji Schwimmer [00:34:57] People. I mean, we were a smaller group of people, but there was about 75 people all together waiting at time the same steps of the church membership building standing there. Yeah. And I, I decided to walk in. I, I, I, I had a white, I think we had white shirts and ties on. We were all dressed really clean cut. We didn't want to go there looking like we were picketing. But it was. It was this thing, and I, I, I think there was probably, like six of us that walked into the room waiting for a secretary, and we said, we're not leaving until someone gives us our. Our letter of resignation. We're asking. We've been asking for it.

John Dehlin [00:35:26] Wow, that's drama.

Benji Schwimmer [00:35:28] Yeah, it's a little drama.

John Dehlin [00:35:29] It's intense.

Benji Schwimmer [00:35:29] But for someone who's been asking for it for years, I think it's about damn time. Oh, sure, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:36] How long were you there?

Benji Schwimmer [00:35:38] A couple hours.

John Dehlin [00:35:40] I'm trying to imagine, like, the. The old woman at the little booth.

Benji Schwimmer [00:35:44] Oh, my God.

John Dehlin [00:35:44] Like, having to, like, call somebody or run upstairs to kind of tell the records. Who do we tell? Benji Schwimmer is at our door. And, you know, what do we do, John?

Benji Schwimmer [00:35:55] It was the funniest thing. So we went to one of the rooms first. We went to one of the rooms first, and the secretary there, we walked in and she's like, let me guess. You're asking for your records to be removed. So there was six or seven gay men standing there, right? And we just kind of nodded our heads. She's like, okay, you're actually in the wrong building. I'm going to tell you where to go. And she was really sweet about it. She's like, you need to actually go across the street to this other record building. And I thought, like, are they trying to, like, dis.

Benji Schwimmer [00:36:19] They're trying to, like, smoke in mirrors. And she was actually really sweet. And she told us. So I'm not gonna name names, obviously, but she said, she's like, you know, my son's gay. And she's like, I get it. This is a worker right there in the building, a secretary. She's like, my son's gay. I get it. She's like, you guys go in peace and be kind, but it'll happen if you wait.

Benji Schwimmer [00:36:40] So we waited. We sat down. It was a peaceful protest. And security came down twice to talk to us, which was really interesting. And we had no harm. We just asked for something very simple. And so a representative took all of our names, all of our addresses, and within two weeks, all of us got our letters.

John Dehlin [00:36:57] Oh, so you didn't get the letter that moment?

Benji Schwimmer [00:36:59] They weren't able to. They had to process it. So they gave us a confirmation that they would. And I said, okay. I said, if I don't get this in a couple of days, though, I said, it's going to be bad. I said, we're going to Have a full blown parade in front of this door and it's going to be bad. And he's like, he's like, I promise you it'll happen. All right, so we got it and I have it.

John Dehlin [00:37:18] It's been a couple weeks.

Benji Schwimmer [00:37:19] I got it. Within two weeks all of us got them.

John Dehlin [00:37:21] Nice.

Benji Schwimmer [00:37:22] And what's funny is though is all of us asked specifically, we do not want our bishop to get the letter. We want it mailed directly to us. We do not talk to a patriarchal leader. We are our own leaders. You can send it to us. And what's funny is, other than me because I move around so much, the only address they had was my business address. So I got it here at the studio. I had my letter of resignation sent here. And for everyone else they still sent it through their bishops. So a lot of them had, A lot of my friends had to go to their bishops, pick up a letter and still deal with another buffer, another invitation to repent, et cetera. But luckily I didn't, so. But yeah, it was great. I framed was a letter of accomplishment. I have it right next to my successful missionary release letter in my office.

John Dehlin [00:38:13] And you say since then they have tried to contact you.

Benji Schwimmer [00:38:17] Yeah. There have been people that I know that work for either HR or that might be part of some sort of committee. I'm not privy to know exactly what the inner workings are, but where they wanted us to maybe get together and have some sort of bridging of the gap. Right. I, for a long time I had people asking me to get re baptized and then that changed from being re baptized to can we get together and have a meeting? And secretary of one of the 12 wanted to get together and talk about some PR things. How can we bridge this gap? And I felt like personally they wanted a photo op.

Benji Schwimmer [00:38:48] I felt like personally they wanted just to see that they're working with an ex member to kind of take away the power of my position as somebody who has left. Right. And is and has successfully left without having to still be a part of the Mormon Church in any direct way. And I felt like I was going to be, I was going to be taken advantage of. I felt like it was very, very manipulative. And I don't think that's of God and I don't think that that was a religious reason. I thought it was a PR reason. It was a public relations reason. 100%.

John Dehlin [00:39:20] Yeah. Because the church is trying to have this, they're trying to walk this balance where they've got this policy that many view is heinous and deadly and mean and cruel and unchristlike. And that's still in place. But they don't want to be viewed as mean and vicious and cruel and unchristlike. They certainly don't want to be associated with suicides and depression and sadness. And so they want to tag their name onto Love Loud or tag their name on to encircle or have photo ops with you, and they want to kind of thread this needle of being perceived as loving gay people and totally accepting but still holding onto the policy.

Benji Schwimmer [00:40:06] Yeah.

Mixed-Orientation Marriages and Church Culture

John Dehlin [00:40:06] Talk about what you think about that mix.

Benji Schwimmer [00:40:11] I find in general that the church right now is going through some really bad growing pains. And I think because of that, like an adolescent who's going through growing pains, they're going to be very awkward. They're going to make mistakes.

Benji Schwimmer [00:40:26] And I feel like instead of actually taking responsibility for those that are hurting, and instead of actually following the words and the teachings of Christ, they are going in the path of Donald Trump in the sense that it's all politics. It's all for image.

Benji Schwimmer [00:40:43] They can say what they want to say, but they don't want to suffer the consequences for it. And I frankly feel like there's a huge parallel to that between current politics in the United States and what's happening with the church in general. Now. It's funny, because in the Mormon Church, what I feel is happening and the way that they get around things is it's the people that work for the brethren that have to do all the spinning. They're the ones that are doing the spinning. They're the ones that have to find cognitive dissonance and. And project it to the masses. Right. So something happened. Do you remember the Mormon and gay campaign that they had, the website that they put out?

John Dehlin [00:41:19] Yeah.

Benji Schwimmer [00:41:19] So I want to know a funny story. This is an interesting thing. Ty Mansfield made a video about it. You know his story, right? And I know Ty very, very well. We used to be very close as friends. We used to work in North Star together. I came out publicly, publicly to one of his firesides that he used to have at the Mattis.

Benji Schwimmer [00:41:37] And interestingly enough, he posted a video where he said, there was a time in my life he had a sound bite. Right. It's his story of him being gay. And it's funny, it's been changed since. It's been taken down, but he had all these pictures. He's like, there was a time in my life when I was tempted to go and make the wrong choices in my life. Right? And he posted this picture of me and him right during that sound bite. There were times in my life when I was tempted to make these bad choices in my life.

John Dehlin [00:42:06] I remember that.

Benji Schwimmer [00:42:07] Right.

John Dehlin [00:42:07] It's got your face.

Benji Schwimmer [00:42:08] It's got my face on that sound bite. But I decided to like, see what's more important and this, that and the other. First of all, Ty Mansfield and I never had anything romantically, sexually, tempestuously between the two of us, ever. He was a friend. I looked up to him because I thought that he figured it out, that he broke the equation that was unbreakable. He cracked the code and he knew how to make it happen. For those of our listeners that don't know who Ty Mansfield is, he's a very well known author who is gay, married to a woman, kids, family, yada, yada, yada. But.

John Dehlin [00:42:42] And he wrote the book Voices of Hope.

Benji Schwimmer [00:42:43] Right, Voices of Hope.

John Dehlin [00:42:45] And he's been heavily involved in Journey into Manhood.

Benji Schwimmer [00:42:48] Yeah. Which sounds like a gay porn. I'm sorry, that's the worst title ever.

John Dehlin [00:42:51] Which is kind of these weekends where you go off and try and do macho think things to, to repair your broken relationships with your father. Yeah. And to try and make you more macho and you know, so that, so that you can ungate yourself because it's some illness, abnormality that needs to be fixed. He's, he's been part of Journey into Manhood and he's been part of North Star, which does, you know, what types of behaviors.

Benji Schwimmer [00:43:18] Again, it's basically it's either like how to deal with it. It's. It's talking about conversion therapy, it's talking about how to re. Establish, you know, like the journey into manhood thing. It's, it's how to, how to learn to live with a spouse of a mixed orientation, marriage, et cetera, et cetera. But ultimately what it is, it's a way for guys to get that level of intimacy with another man and still make something work. And from my experience, 90% of the time, if not 100% of the time, these people cheat on their wives.

Benji Schwimmer [00:43:48] From what I know, always. And it's not public knowledge. And they have these videos like they're great men, that they're totally earnest and honest and they're living a bold faced lie. Now, I'm not passing judgment on them directly for experimenting with men or this, that and the other, but what I am upset with is that they create this image that they're good, that they're worthy, that they follow all the rules and that they're happily married. They are not. I can attest to this as a witness that they are not. And these men not only are living a lie, but they treat other gay men that are not married in these groups as like concubines.

Benji Schwimmer [00:44:32] I have a personal friend whose life was almost destroyed because of the likes of those groups. And he was treated by the leadership of these groups like a second class citizen who also needed to give them naked massages all the time.

Benji Schwimmer [00:44:47] It is so warped and so convoluted. I know this is heavy stuff and I wasn't even expecting to talk about this, John. But the thing that got me closest to suicide, the thing that got me sad, the thing that made me feel so discouraged is I saw the likes of those guys that are married and. And supposedly success stories. And I thought, why can't I do this? Why am I not worthy enough? Why am I not strong enough of a person? Like, I'm reading my scriptures, I'm fasting, I'm praying.

Benji Schwimmer [00:45:18] How come I'm dropping the ball and they aren't? The truth is they never had the ball to begin with, truthfully. And when I saw that picture that Ty had picked up for that sound bite. One, it was a smear campaign. Two, do you know where that picture was taken at? At his wedding reception.

Benji Schwimmer [00:45:39] So don't tell me that we were together. Don't make this image that I was trying to pull you on some other side. I was the first person he called when he was gonna propose to his wife. Right. I don't mean to get too personal with that, but that is. I mean, sorry, that's crazy to me that they did that. So I called Church HR And I said, you need a republic. Remove this picture in these images right now. One, it's my intellectual property, and two, it's a bold faced lie and a smear, what you guys are doing. And it's funny because I asked Church hr I said, who edited this?

Benji Schwimmer [00:46:07] Ty was in charge of it. And I don't know what kind of puppet strings are being held above him from above, but that's the ugly side of the spinning PR of the Church. And it's dangerous and it's causing people to take their lives.

John Dehlin [00:46:20] And also I think it's. You know, we just interviewed Dusty.

Benji Schwimmer [00:46:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:26] Who, you know, last, you know, just a couple days ago, who's being excommunicated for marrying the love of his life.

Benji Schwimmer [00:46:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:34] And he said. Right, yeah, yeah. And he said that he knows at least one of the subjects of one of those videos of like either celibacy or mixed orientation marriage that was paraded on on the Mormons of Gays website has since left the church has not been able to sustain the lifestyle.

Benji Schwimmer [00:46:52] I know him.

John Dehlin [00:46:53] Yeah. And this is just something and I said it with Dusty's interview. I'm going to say it again. And it's not just Mormonism, it's evangelical Christianity, Judaism. This is this thing that orthodox religions do where they parade people as role models for PR in the public, on magazines, on websites, during conferences. Here's an example of celibate Mormons that are making it work. Here's an example of mixed orientation marriage Mormons that are making it work to give people hope and inspiration that they can do it too and that they can be happy. And almost without exception add either it's a lie when they're presenting them or became as role models or it soon becomes a lie thereafter.

John Dehlin [00:47:38] Never does the religion own up to that and say sorry. We gave you the example of, you know, of Josh and Lolly Weed. We gave you the example of Ty and Danielle Mansfield. We gave you the example of all these other celibate Mormon men or women or men or women in mixed orientation marriages and we led you down the path to make these choices.

John Dehlin [00:47:58] But it turns out that those people couldn't live it or they were miserable or they were cheating on the side but they never own up to that.

Benji Schwimmer [00:48:06] They never do.

John Dehlin [00:48:07] They just recycle. New, new role models. Yeah. And so add another year. The church can't use Mormon and gay's website anymore because they can't call themselves Mormons anymore. It'll be LDS church members or Latter Day Saints who are gay dot com.

Benji Schwimmer [00:48:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:21] And they'll have a whole new generation of celibate gay Mormon men, celibate gay, you know, lesbian women or you know, Mormons in mixed orientation marriages. And they'll parade them as the new role models for being able to make the lifestyle work. And that will in many cases or most be a fraud and a sham too. Talk. I mean I, I just kind of monologue.

Benji Schwimmer [00:48:40] I mean I'm just going to say amen brother. I mean, yeah, what is that?

John Dehlin [00:48:44] What is that in your view? What's the ethics of the morals of that?

Benji Schwimmer [00:48:48] The ethics is, is I think in general, and we know this throughout the history of the world that religion makes you do some crazy and it's the cause of wars, it's the cause of issues. And so people will do desperate things that normally no human being would ever choose to do. Right.

Benji Schwimmer [00:49:06] Because of Pushing it for the faith. You know, Joseph Smith and you know, the original Mormon pioneers, they did some dark things in the name of God because they needed to. In their minds, they believed it. And I feel like we're dealing with something for the first time in a long time very similar to that publicly, where people are acting in the name of God and they'll do anything that they can because it's for something that's more grandiose than law here in the states, here in the world. Right. It goes beyond that. It's the eternal thing that makes things so amplified and magnified. And I feel like the church in general right now, they'll do whatever they have to do.

Benji Schwimmer [00:49:46] I mean, I thought we can. They don't care in that sense. Ultimately, they don't believe that they're the cause of suicide. They don't. They don't have any remorse. There's no remorse whatsoever. There's only. Avoid the illusion of fault. Avoid the illusion of anything that's. That's not of God.

John Dehlin [00:50:03] And what's that doing in the lives of the people impacted, the gay men and the lesbian women, the bisexual, what's it, the people. Celibate, the people. Mixed orientation marriage. What's the collateral damage of the church, generation after generation. Right. Luring people into celibacy or mixed orientation marriages.

Benji Schwimmer [00:50:24] It's mentally, emotionally destroying us, it's destroying our youth, it's destroying marriages, it's destroying the ability to have a healthy relationship with somebody else because it's so convoluted and it's so fake. You're literally making it impossible. We're seeing examples that are fake. It's the worst form of reality tv. You know, you're looking at, for example, you know, I looked at Ty Mansfield. I thought, well, if he can do it, I can do it. And then I see what's happening behind the scenes. I'm disgusted by it. And I couldn't live like that, which is why I had to leave. And so if I can say anything about those groups in general, it's not what you think it is.

John Dehlin [00:51:04] You say behind the scenes what?

Benji Schwimmer [00:51:06] Behind the scenes of these men's lives that are living, that are married to women for the most part, I would say from every case that I know of, they've all faltered. And yet the illusion, the appearance, seems like they're squeaky clean. Not the case. Not the case, 100%. And those that get away with it are straddling along.

John Dehlin [00:51:27] You're saying that either the men are cheating or they're not. Happy in their marriages.

Benji Schwimmer [00:51:31] They're cheating. They're cheating. Okay, they're cheating. And you can define whatever cheating might be to you. But like having a naked massage party with all of your. Your. Your forcefully straight, gay Mormon married men, like a massage party naked. That's a little weird. When you're aroused and you're touching everywhere. That's odd to me. That's an odd behavior.

John Dehlin [00:51:56] And you're saying active believing.

Benji Schwimmer [00:51:57] Active believing.

John Dehlin [00:51:58] Active believing Mormons are doing this.

Benji Schwimmer [00:52:00] Board members of these groups, North Star and North Star and the likes.

John Dehlin [00:52:05] Yeah.

Benji Schwimmer [00:52:06] So it's like, you know, you're seeing that. No wonder why I can't fit that mold. And they parade their partnerships, they parade their wives at these events, like these giant success stories. And I see, you know, it really hurts sometimes is I've been to a couple where we've had, like, Josh, actually, Josh Weed, who I adore. He's a great guy. Happy coming out, brother.

John Dehlin [00:52:25] He.

Benji Schwimmer [00:52:26] He and I talk a little bit. She talked about gay sex the other day. I was telling her what to do, what not to do.

John Dehlin [00:52:32] Tell our listeners who Josh and Lily Wheat are for those who don't know.

Benji Schwimmer [00:52:35] So Josh was also another, like, completely separate from any of those organized groups, but he wrote a blog, basically about he and his wife how they're making it work. He's identified as a gay man, but they have kids and they're gonna make it work. And they did for several years. And finally they even had to admit. And I loved what he did. He was just very honest. We just can't make it work. We love each other, we love our family, but this is something we cannot sustain. And of all people, like, that is like, to me, they were very honest about what happened. And I hope that these other men can be honest to you, because I know deep down inside they're good, good people.

Benji Schwimmer [00:53:09] And their wives are trying to make something work that can't. It's a square peg in a round hole. Just can't do it. But going back, Josh, he and I were both speaking at a conference years ago, and I was representing the ex Mormon side. He was representing the stick with it side. And it was kind of a way to kind of encircle the wagons. No matter what you believe, it's okay. Just find your path. And I would probably never do that now in hindsight. Right. But it was a way for us to kind of not show that we hate one another and that you can still be friends with those that are still in the church, etc.

Benji Schwimmer [00:53:39] Etc. And it was just really interesting to see that dichotomy and for him to speak on that side of the fence to me. Speak on that side of the fence. And he and I, at dinner, we got along. I sat next to. To he and his wife. It was great. Like, we were talking. We were chatting it up, and we could hug it out. We were cool. We talked about mutual beliefs and interests, on how to help people. And the one thing that he never did is he. I remember he said, I never want to give somebody a false sense of hope. But I do remember being at that conference and some of those other couples were there.

Benji Schwimmer [00:54:08] And I remember they would walk around, I mean, like peacocks, just holding hands and arms around their wives. And I saw some of these younger gay men, women, and even transgender individuals just looking at them like, I'm never gonna be able to do that. I remember walking into that room, and I never went back to that conference for this reason. It was almost saying, look what you don't have.

Benji Schwimmer [00:54:33] Look what we have. Listen to us, adore us, applaud us, but you can't have this. And it's true. And I saw more people shut down. I saw teenagers look sad as opposed to feeling inspired. And it's true. And there's also this thing called the book club. I don't know if you've heard about that same group of people. The North Star people, their upper echelon group, have something called a book club, and they go to Sugar House, which is a predominantly gay area of Salt Lake City. It's like where the Gold's Gym is, I think, and there's a sauna there, and they call it their book club.

Benji Schwimmer [00:55:13] And what they do is they get butt naked in a sauna. They see naked men come in and out, and they call it their canteen filling sessions so that they can have enough ammo images in their heads to have successful sex with their wives.

Benji Schwimmer [00:55:28] But they're doing it for God, so it's okay. They'll do anything that they possibly can to make it work. And I think what these men are doing is. Is a direct reflection of what the church is trying to do. And I feel like that's the correlation right there, personally.

John Dehlin [00:55:43] So what if somebody were to say, hey, you know what? You know, it's not either or it's not black or white. Like, okay, they're not living the law of chastity, as your orthodox Mormon would think.

Benji Schwimmer [00:55:57] Okay?

John Dehlin [00:55:59] But they are living the spirit of the law by not actually having butt sex. Or they're not, you Know, as you call it, anal sex. They're not. They're not having oral sex. They're not actually touching each other in their private parts. So they're living the letter of the law, of the law of chastity and in some ways, the spirit of the law. But they're choosing religiously. It's their right to choose a faithful temple, Mormon marriage. And they're in a very progressive, liberal way, just like they are. Just like some Mormons don't believe the Bible's literal, some Mormons don't believe it's the one true church. They're still. They find spiritual meaning. Yeah, these gay men or lesbian women or by whoever, they're being creative and progressive to live either the spirit of the letter of the law and to live God's law. What's wrong with that?

Benji Schwimmer [00:56:50] Oh, what's wrong with it is that they present it not in that package. They don't say that they're doing that.

John Dehlin [00:56:55] Right.

Benji Schwimmer [00:56:56] I would be totally cool with. Hey, look, my wife and I were cool. I got a side guy on the. I got a guy on the side. We make it work. It's great. Like, I respect your open poly. Very close to, you know, polygamist, old school, like Joseph Smith centric, like, Mormon vibes, like, go. You like millennial, all the way, fine. And if that's your game, if that's your jam, great, Right? But the problem is these people, people are playing it as if they were a member of the Quorum of the First Presidency. They're playing it like, this is my wife, this is my companion, this is me, and here we are.

Benji Schwimmer [00:57:35] And they're not doing that. And so for me, it's the falsehood, it's the pretenses, it's the image, the illusion that they're creating is what they're telling people to do, but it's not what they're living. Last time I checked, that's a hypocrisy.

Benji Schwimmer [00:57:49] And that's exactly what it is. I would have no problem if one of those guys, one of the time answers of the world, said, look, I occasionally have someone on the side. I'd be okay with that as long as they were open about it. And then maybe people would want to make it work in the church. But you're right, then it's a very liberal perspective to have. But these people are staunch. They're going full Nephi on us, you know, or at least pretending to be. And I feel like that's what I felt enslaved to, that I feel like, okay, that's how I have to live.

Benji Schwimmer [00:58:17] But they weren't a lot of nude pictures being sent back and forth. A lot of this, that. A lot of just lines being crossed. And if I were a wife, if I were a significant other to somebody that was doing that with a member of that similar sex, I would be brutally hurt. I would be brutally hurt. And I feel so bad for these women and men. I feel bad for all of them, to be honest with you, because they've fallen into this trap of a mold that does not work.

Benji Schwimmer [00:58:48] It's a mold that doesn't work. And no matter how you slice it, it's not gonna fit. It just won't. Unless you have a very liberal perspective on it. But they don't. Or at least they present something that isn't.

John Dehlin [00:59:01] And I'm thinking a little bit about this idea that they might say to you, it does work for us. Don't tell us it doesn't work. Sure. Maybe it's a low libido wife that isn't really interested in sex anyway.

Benji Schwimmer [00:59:11] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:59:12] And she's like, okay, go do your little touching party thing or your holding party thing or whatever. But. But I don't care because I want kids and I want our marriage to stay together, and this works for us. Don't Benji tell us that it doesn't work? Yeah, I know you would say that's okay. That's their choice, but I think we've already answered it. It's the hypocrisy. In other words, what we would want is the church to say, you can choose celibacy. Right?

Benji Schwimmer [00:59:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:40] Choose celibacy. But know that you're gonna have horrible quality, likely to have horrible quality of life. Depression, anger, sadness, loneliness. And it's gonna be super hard and miserable.

Benji Schwimmer [00:59:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:53] And you may want to kill yourself, but if you want to choose that and to carry your cross, do it. Yeah. But just know there's significant mental and physical health risks associated with it.

Benji Schwimmer [01:00:03] Right.

John Dehlin [01:00:04] And if you want to do a mixed orientation marriage, do it. But know that the way that the people that we parade around are actually doing it is having these touching parties, having these holding parties, having guys on the side, you know, journey into manhood, naked stuff.

Benji Schwimmer [01:00:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:00:19] You know, and that's. That's going to. You're allowed to do that because that's how these dudes that we're parading around are doing it.

Benji Schwimmer [01:00:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:00:27] So let's just say in general conference or in the handbook of.

Benji Schwimmer [01:00:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:00:30] Of gay Progressive Mormonism. These things are okay because we're allowing you behind the scenes anyway.

Benji Schwimmer [01:00:36] Is that what you're saying? On the streets we call that a side piece.

John Dehlin [01:00:39] Right?

Benji Schwimmer [01:00:40] You know what I mean? Like, if that's what you're going to do, you're right. But like, the fact that you had to make that whole long winded explanation of it leads me to believe that that's never going to happen within Mormonism because they don't even want to get connected to their polyamorous roots. They're trying to remove themselves from that, you know, 100%. So it's just not gonna happen. You know, they asked me one time, John, I don't know if I said this, but they asked. Ty was approached to help author a book about my story. I was gonna make a coming out book about how I'm successfully living this chaste life as a member of the church.

Benji Schwimmer [01:01:12] And I'm satisfied and I'm happy. And it was pushed really hard on me by the church and by him. And I kept telling him, like, I haven't arrived, I'm struggling. I was in love with that boy still. I was in love with John still. You know, how are you to ask me to do this? And he's like, no, just write the book. But that's what I'm trying to say is he knew that I was not feet were planted. He knew that I was wavering, he knew that I was struggling so much. And he still thought it was okay to use me as a poster child for something that I'm apparently making work.

Benji Schwimmer [01:01:45] And I feel like that's what the church is doing with a lot of these married couples. You're making it work. It didn't work for the weeds, you know what I mean? It's not working for anyone else that I know of, literally anyone else.

Benji Schwimmer [01:01:58] So I think sometimes we. The hooks are pulled out, the fish is not ready to be caught. I don't think we're ever ready for that personally.

John Dehlin [01:02:06] And not to pick on Ty, but it was Dean Bird before him and it'll be someone after Ty Mansfield. They've got these sort of consultants on LGBT stuff that are like in the inner circles, helping them form policies, being the behind the scenes leaders. They'll head the North Star Conference. They'll keynote the North Star Conference. They'll strategize on the videos that go on Mormons and gays. They're these sort of LGBT consultants that are inner circle, powerful, working at BYU on the side. Who knows if there's money, favors being exchanged for their consultancy and. And there's Book deals. With book deals, but those are a book. And, And. And who knows what. What donors are encouraged to give to North Star or what donors are encouraged to give to these conferences. Who knows what backdoor money or influence or favors are given.

Benji Schwimmer [01:02:59] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:03:00] And it's entire one of a. Of a string of past and future.

Benji Schwimmer [01:03:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:04] Inner players that are likely getting privilege. But. But the dark side is kind of how it plays out in the lives of all the other people that get impacted.

Benji Schwimmer [01:03:15] Of all of them. Of all of them. It's. It's a curtain. You know, it's. It's. It's the wizard behind the curtain. It's big smoke, it's big mirrors, it's a big head, but truly, it's just somebody pulling the strings behind. It's not real.

John Dehlin [01:03:27] And then really quickly, there are these people that. That are really good. I. You know, Tom Kristofferson was really good about this. Josh and Lally Weed were really good about this. They would say, I'm telling my truth, but I'm no role model.

Benji Schwimmer [01:03:41] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:03:42] Right. Don't, don't, don't. Number one, don't follow my example.

Benji Schwimmer [01:03:47] Right.

John Dehlin [01:03:47] And don't, you know, straight members. Don't pressure your LGBT family and friends to follow my role model either.

Benji Schwimmer [01:03:56] Right.

John Dehlin [01:03:57] And so I really respect them for saying that.

Benji Schwimmer [01:04:00] Me, too.

John Dehlin [01:04:01] But is there. Is there a challenge or a risk with just presenting yourself? Just speaking publicly? That's what's hard. They should be able to speak publicly.

Benji Schwimmer [01:04:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:04:10] And tell their story and tell their truth. But then, even if you are telling your story and saying, I'm not a role model, how does that play out for those that are listening?

Benji Schwimmer [01:04:20] Well, I mean, for instance, just at least from my personal experience, you know, I made my Mormon Stories podcast seven years ago, and yet to this day, people think that my worldview is. Is very specific. Like, are you still in love with that? Are you still in love with that boy? Are you. You know, people. People just assume that the moment you make a statement. Right. That that is your belief forever and ever. It's perpetual. Right. So I feel like what I'm also just saying.

John Dehlin [01:04:44] Not to interrupt, but what I'm also just saying is that even. And I love Tom Kristofferson. I love Benji, and I mean, I'm sorry, I love Josh and Lolly.

Benji Schwimmer [01:04:54] Was that a Freudian slip?

John Dehlin [01:04:55] No. No. I think they are people of integrity.

Benji Schwimmer [01:04:59] They are.

John Dehlin [01:04:59] I think they. They're doing good. I think they're helping people. I've just. I've just sort of struggled with this Idea that even when those people get up and say, don't follow my example, people still will.

Benji Schwimmer [01:05:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:12] Because they're speaking up.

Benji Schwimmer [01:05:14] Yeah. And I think that's just part of human nature in particular in this, in our Mormon community, we tend to look at somebody who is speaking at a pulpit and follow. You know, we're kind of conditioned to do that, especially in this world, in this community. But I think the world in general, you know, people that are vocal, if they have a voice, we have ears, you know, we're gonna listen no matter what. Which is why I think it's important for someone like you, John, where you're bringing in many voices constantly so that it's more of a movement. It's a wave of sound and words and emotions and people and perspectives as opposed to these very hyper select reveals and media drips and certain books that are being released.

Benji Schwimmer [01:05:52] I feel like there's just not enough content. Content. And I think that's indicative to truth. Right. I think the truth that you're presenting here with Mormon stories is interesting because you're having so many people talk about different facets and shades and it's creating this beautiful, what I call like a harmonious theory, so to speak, of kind of what the movement is talking about, what's really happening in our lives and our experiences where it's so cherry picked from the PR side of the Mormon Church where you have to follow these people because there's just a couple of voices. What you do good is that you have multiple people speaking all the time.

Benji Schwimmer [01:06:22] And I think it's smart, I think it's healthier. I think hearing this, it's not just a form of group speak because you're dealing with us one on one, but there's constant content. What you do is wonderful. And it's literally the opposite of what the church is doing. They're bringing out just the two people that can be mouthpieces. And that's it. It's politics. It's literally politics. This is talk radio countering the politics, so to speak, if you will. Not to say that we're anti, but to say that we're just, we're talking about truth, we're talking about experience and we're being honest. And, and to go with something, I don't feel like if I'm talking on Mormon stories, it's just my story.

Benji Schwimmer [01:06:57] And you're very smart about saying it's a story. It's my perspective, it's my image, I might see things differently. My lens, my experience is totally different. And How I'm presenting it today is based upon my emotions today. Right.

Benji Schwimmer [01:07:10] So don't, you know, piggybacking off the weeds, for example. Don't use me as an example. You did something and I wanted to always call you out about it, actually, one time. So on one of the parts of the episode when we were talking years ago, you're like, benji, you know, wouldn't it be one of those great moments if you could just say, wish you wouldn't have gone through so much pain and trauma. Wouldn't it be just nice to say, I'm just gonna love who I love and leave? And I looked at you like, no, like, I wish. I wish I would have. And it seemed like you were trying to get to a space where you were trying to get me to say, I wish I just would have left and not have to gone through hell and back and suicidality and this, that and the other.

Benji Schwimmer [01:07:47] Right. That was for me personally. And so in that moment, I've heard people actually message me, interestingly enough, about that moment, saying, benji, you know, I'm trying everything that I can. I'm gonna do change therapy for at least a year right now, and so see how that goes. I'm gonna date women and do this, that and the other. And I'm like, oh, my God, they're trying to follow the method that I went through.

Benji Schwimmer [01:08:11] Right. So I get what you're saying, because I don't want anybody to follow what I did. And I know what you were trying to say. You were trying to say, it's easier just to leave. If you wanna love somebody, love somebody. Don't go through hell if you don't have to. Right. And I just wanted to call you out on that because I think you were trying to wink, wink, nudge, nudge, like, Benji, this is. This is an unhealthy pattern here seven years ago. And I want to let people know, like, I don't want people to have to suffer. I don't want people have to go through what I went through.

Benji Schwimmer [01:08:40] It's not fun. It's beautiful on the other side, but it's not fun. And obviously, per this interview, I'm still going through it. I think it's a constant. We're going to have to. 27 years of something is not easy to remove by the time you're 34.

Benji Schwimmer [01:08:55] So just in general, I agree. I don't think that we should have these mouthpieces, but I think if you do share a story, you're going to help more people than you will hurt them. But there will always be people that will follow. There will always be people that are going to look to you as an example. And I think that's just part of human nature.

Benji Schwimmer [01:09:12] I think in Mormonism, we just have a lot more of those types of mentalities. We've drunk the Kool Aid for a very long time.

John Dehlin [01:09:20] Yeah. And I just want to tell Tom Kristofferson and. And Josh and Lollyweed, if you're watching or listening, I love you and you're inspirational to me and you're heroes to me. So we're just trying to talk about hard stuff. I hope you guys understand that. Yeah, yeah, they may. They probably won't listen, but, yes, they do say lovey. Okay, so let's talk about. Just really quickly. There's something really.

Disciplinary Councils and Church Rhetoric

John Dehlin [01:09:43] There's two things I want to talk about, at least, as we're kind of coming to the close. One was. Oh, my gosh. So I'm interviewing Dusty last week and his beautiful partner Tate is right there on the side.

John Dehlin [01:09:58] And I. So for those of you who don't know, this is really important. So there's a gentleman that you will have just the interview prior to this one. I interviewed Dusty or Dustin Wilson Johns, and he married a woman, had a couple kids, mixed orientation, marriage was a disaster, got divorced, had a bunch of head surgeries, skull surgeries, was dripping cerebral spinal fluid, but finally got, well, found the love of his life. And during that, had this theophany with God where he's like, I'm sticking with Mormonism.

John Dehlin [01:10:36] I'm gonna go to church as a faithful gay man with my boyfriend, then husband, and I'm going to just stay in the church because this is my spiritual home. So he and his partner in Idaho start attending their Idaho Falls ward and are embraced and loved.

John Dehlin [01:10:53] And the irony that was just so devastating that I want you to comment on is if they had just left the church forever in 2018 and just a. If. If he had just never had a partner and never got married and just had whatever relationships he had, maybe even unsafe. Church leaves him alone. If he were to just have boyfriends and live in boyfriends or whatever. Church leaves him alone.

Benji Schwimmer [01:11:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:22] If he were even to get same sex married and live. Live his life. Church probably leaves him alone.

Benji Schwimmer [01:11:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:30] What is it that gets him threatened with the Dismay Council, which I think is going to be October 16th.

Benji Schwimmer [01:11:36] Wow.

John Dehlin [01:11:37] 8:00pm in Idaho Falls. Be watching for the notification because we want as many people as possible to show up to that, by the way.

Benji Schwimmer [01:11:44] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:11:45] But what got Him a disciplinary council was that he wanted to keep coming to church and with his partner. And what was ironic about that is that the ward was loving him and the bishop was loving them and accepting them. And yet it's like something flipped. And it's just like, we can't have a happy, monogamous gay couple bringing their two blond, cute boys with bow ties to church. And so we're gonna have to excommunicate them. Whereas we'll leave alone not just all these other versions of being gay, but we're gonna leave alone the rapist or the. The child molester or the adulterer. None of them are going to get excommunicated, right?

Benji Schwimmer [01:12:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:12:37] It's going to be Dusty and his partner, his husband, his legal husband, who are in love, going to church, being monogamous and being healthy and happy. Shouldn't they be wanted most in church? What are your thoughts about all that? I'm sorry, that was a monologue again, but I'm angry about it.

Benji Schwimmer [01:12:55] Well, let me, let me. I'll put it into this perspective. If I'm the church, I would kick them out immediately.

John Dehlin [01:13:01] Why?

Benji Schwimmer [01:13:01] Because that's the biggest danger they could ever let. That is the biggest shark swimming in their tank. Why? Because you're seeing a model family that is alternative to the model family of Mormonism, which is ironic because we started out with polygamy. We are the model alternative lifestyle in general in terms of our genesis. But of course, like, if I'm the Mormon Church, John, and I'm seeing this happy couple that's being embraced by everybody, that is the biggest negative influence you could ever find.

John Dehlin [01:13:32] Why?

Benji Schwimmer [01:13:33] Because they're normalizing everything that we preach to be darkness. They're normalizing everything that I thought was darkness. They're showing you that we can humanize this, we can love this, we can embrace this in our communities. They're raising two successful children and they're spiritual and they believe in God and they worship and they're reading the Book of Mormon and they love each other and they're committed to each other. Oh, my God, what's happening? And of course, they're going to start causing schisms in people's beliefs. It's going to. It's going to be a problem.

John Dehlin [01:14:02] What will the people think?

Benji Schwimmer [01:14:03] Well, either the people are going to treat them terribly or they're going to embrace them with love, because we're told to always treat our gay members of the church with love. But once you start letting them in, you start seeing this a normal thing. I'm seeing them as a Mormon family. Why can't the gays get married in the temple? Why can't these questions? And then those questions start happening. Then they turn on Mormon stories. They listen to three podcasts, and they're having a faith crisis. And the church knows this. So if anything, they're the best splinter cells we could have inside the.

John Dehlin [01:14:29] The.

Benji Schwimmer [01:14:29] The walls of the Mormon Church. I have a. I have an ex of mine who still attends church actively, and he's openly gay, and he goes every Sunday, and he does that specifically because he wants to be on that side of the fence to show and normalize people. It's almost his way. He doesn't really care about church anymore, but he does it because he wants people to see that we're not invisible.

Benji Schwimmer [01:14:52] I can't. Emotionally, I can't do that. I live my life. I seek happiness. And if people want to see that, they'll peek in and then they'll know. But I get it. And that is the most difficult splinter cell to attack. And that's what's happening with Dusty and Tate. And I think it's beautiful what they did. I think if their children were older, they probably would get to a place where they would probably have to leave unless something changed. And so I would want to protect my children and leave as soon as possible. But I get if those. If that's the man, that's the men that they are, you know, their children, like they were raised in the church.

Benji Schwimmer [01:15:29] So why not raise your children in the church? Just like that, just with a little bit of a twist to it. You know, most. Most drinks taste better with the twist of lime, so put a taste. Twist of gay in something, and it might be a little. Little sweeter, a little better.

John Dehlin [01:15:41] Yeah, yeah. As you did. Did you hear about Oaks's talk at General Conference this, you know, a couple weeks ago?

Benji Schwimmer [01:15:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:15:50] October 2018. What do you think about the church's rhetoric now about LGBT people in 2018?

Benji Schwimmer [01:16:01] Let me preface this with a statement. In general. In general, John, one thing that I've. I've tried to do recently is this. I. I am. I'm always here. Obviously, being a gay man, I already. I stand for a cause that I think is pretty globally accepted. But still, we have a lot of leg work to do. But one thing that I've done recently, and I'm going to challenge our members that are listening. Members, people that are listening right now, to do the same. And it's something that I learned recently, actually listening to a podcast about Black rights I wear. When I go to the airport.

Benji Schwimmer [01:16:34] Most of the time, I'll wear a shirt about causes that don't affect me directly. So, for example, I wear a Black Lives Matter shirt often when I go to the airport, and I fly at least twice a week.

Benji Schwimmer [01:16:47] And it's funny that the looks that I get at the airport from, like, a lot of especially cisgendered white people, like, they'll look at me with these eyes of almost confusion and sometimes often disgust. It's like, why are you doing that?

Benji Schwimmer [01:17:00] You're a white man. Why are you saying black lives matter? I'm just saying black lives matter. I'm not saying that. No. Other lives don't matter. Right. I'll wear trans rights shirts. I have a pin that's a trans rights pin.

Benji Schwimmer [01:17:13] I'll do these things in general because I feel like we sometimes, if something directly affects us, if I'm a cancer survivor, I'm gonna wear the pink ribbon. But sometimes if something doesn't directly affect us directly, we should be the ones that actually stand up for those that are suffering because of those consequences. And so, for example, I think it's more powerful when John Dehlin has a rainbow wristband on than when Benji Schwimmer doesn't. I think it's more powerful when I see a straight person of privilege. Right.

Benji Schwimmer [01:17:46] Saying something and standing up for something, because that actually can change people's opinions often. So I just wanted to say something really quickly that I feel like the church, the gait issue is going to be terrible because it's happening so much. But I think trans issues are something. It's the next frontier of what we need to start dealing with and preparing ourselves for.

Benji Schwimmer [01:18:09] To be educated, to know what is correct terminology, to be sensitive to that, to be sensitive to gender and identities within that. And a lot of people just identify as queer. And it's a very kind of umbrella term for people to just say that they're different, they're not following the heteronormative life, but just to be sensitive to that. Sorry, I just wanted to interject that because I feel like that's something that's very important to me, to stand up for our transgendered members of the church and transgendered individuals that are even just maybe, like, gender fluid, that don't even have a stance of one or the other.

Benji Schwimmer [01:18:41] I think it's important to be sensitive to their needs because I feel like sometimes they get forgotten and left by the wayside, you know? And I can say this, that I am a cisgendered male homosexual who happens to have like months where he's checking out women. But to me, it's important to be sensitive to all of those needs. So. I love that you just said lgbt. Like, to add the T and the Q is really important to me. So thank you for doing that. Sorry. I just felt like I needed to say that.

Benji Schwimmer [01:19:10] Going back to Oaks statement in general, how does it make me feel? I feel like it just shows that the Brethren are not connected to a source that's higher. That's all I'm going to say on that. I don't feel like I can say anything that hasn't already been said on Reddit.

Benji Schwimmer [01:19:30] I tend to. I'm affected when people are affected by things. I'm not directly affected by any of the words that the leaders of the church, the Brethren, could say at this point. In fact, if anything, it just makes my decision feel more and more validated. Personally, it boggles my mind that I used to once almost hero worship these people. And I used to think that they were completely infallible. And I would read their words to the utmost degree and studied them as if they were scripture.

Benji Schwimmer [01:20:00] And it's shocking now, once you break that glass globe and you start picking up that thing and you're trying to see if it makes sense, it just doesn't. And I think Oakes is. He's covering himself. He's setting a line in the sand. I feel like this new policy, the statements that happen at conference are all ways now. And this is what the church has figured out. We can't cure anyone. We can't bury anyone. So let's just purge them, let's kick them out. We would rather have a mass exodus of all those that are queer, questioning different fringe members of society, just leave so that we can build our beehive again.

Benji Schwimmer [01:20:35] And I really feel like that's what's happening in the church right now. They can't fix things. There's no system. There's no Evergreen that can change our sexual identities. There's no therapy that's actually working. There's no conferences that are actually having success stories at this point. So what we're going to do is we are going to do things, offend anybody that slightly is off and have them push themselves out of the church. We want them out. I think that's what's happening right now.

John Dehlin [01:20:59] Part of what's crazy about Oaks in particular. And I don't mean to out anyone, and maybe I won't use names, but yeah, we it. We Know, and I've known this for years.

Benji Schwimmer [01:21:08] So have I.

John Dehlin [01:21:09] But it's just come out as kind of more publicly that Elder Oaks has a gay grandson.

Benji Schwimmer [01:21:14] At least one.

John Dehlin [01:21:15] Yeah. At least one. Right.

Benji Schwimmer [01:21:16] At least one.

John Dehlin [01:21:16] Yeah. And so when he makes these statements, like, of course they're horrific for anyone globally, but we're knowing that he knows he has a gay grandson or more LGBT family members.

Benji Schwimmer [01:21:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:21:32] And he's still willing to make these statements.

Benji Schwimmer [01:21:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:21:36] What do you make of that? Like, I. I don't believe these are just evil, dark, cold, feelingless people. And yet he's willing to say those types of things to the world, knowing blood, family. He's talking about them when he says these things.

Benji Schwimmer [01:21:54] I mean, Abraham, Isaac, he lifted the knife. He lifted the knife. So if you truly believe this is of God, you will have to do it. The one thing that I think, though, if there was an element of Christian love and charity in Elder Oaks talk, he would have mentioned his grandson. He would have mentioned how hard it would be for him to talk about this.

Benji Schwimmer [01:22:17] He would have acknowledged that, to show an ounce of sensitivity, but he didn't. So when you say that these men are very loving and this, that, and the other, maybe, but from what I see, they act hell of a lot like a sociopath. So that's just my personal opinion, but I'm a little bit farther removed than most are.

Benji Schwimmer [01:22:36] But I see no sense of empathy from these men. I see sexism, I see heterosexism, I see homophobia, and I see a lot of hate and a lot of fear and a lot of pr. That is the absence of love to me.

John Dehlin [01:22:53] Any quick comment on the Sam Young protect LDS children thing, the interviews, and the fact that they would excommunicate?

Benji Schwimmer [01:23:01] Well, first of all, I heard Sam is also a ballroom dancer as well as Bill here. So I think that's amazing, brother. If you ever want a lesson as well, come. Come down to Redlands. I think what Sam has done is wonderful. I think a lot of my sexual hangups and traumas as a child were based upon. I remember When I was 11 years old, my bishop asked me if I touched myself, and I didn't know what that meant. Of course I touched myself. I showered, I picked my nose. What does that mean? And it almost created a gateway of finding out about sex and masturbation earlier on so that you become fixated upon it.

Benji Schwimmer [01:23:37] And so in general, I think what Sam's doing is amazing. I think, again, if you have a threat in the church, the church will ex you. It's what happened with everybody. It's what happened with Quinn. It's what happened with everybody. Like, they're gonna kick out the ones that actually pose a threat.

Benji Schwimmer [01:23:53] And you know what, though? To be honest with you, if I had cancer in my body, which poses a threat to my health, I would kill it, too, with chemo. Right. So I think that's what they're looking at us as. The sad thing is, we are not cancer. We're trying to save lives, we're trying to improve lives, we're trying to better lives. We're trying to create a better culture and community for many people, for millions of people.

Benji Schwimmer [01:24:19] That should not be eradicated. That should be magnified. And that's what you're doing. Right? That's what we're doing. And it's really sad that we're being viewed as cancerous, as opposed to vitamins, as opposed to the balm of Gilead, as opposed to things that can actually help people to actually make Mormonism an actual workable thing for everyone.

Benji Schwimmer [01:24:43] It's not. And so, yeah, unfortunately, I think he is the cancer. I think they are the cancer. I think their PR is the cancer. I think their organization and their finances, I think all of that. The corporation is a cancer to what could ultimately be a great community. And it's very, very unfortunate that they're kicking out some of the best and brightest. Truly.

John Dehlin [01:25:12] And tons of love to his family members and others.

Benji Schwimmer [01:25:16] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:25:16] Because all the apostles have LGBT family members in one way or another, if they aren't themselves. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Benji Schwimmer [01:25:23] I'm sorry. Boyd K. Was a total homo. Sorry to the packers, but Boyd was a mo. Boy was a mo.

John Dehlin [01:25:30] You heard it here first.

Benji Schwimmer [01:25:31] Boyd was a mo. He was family.

Current Spirituality and Meaning of Life

John Dehlin [01:25:35] Okay, so let's talk about your. You talked about this a little bit earlier, but as we're kind of wrapping up, where are you spiritually? Where are you belief wise, kind of. How are you doing health wise? And what, you know, what is your life like now? How do you thrive? And spiritually or otherwise?

Benji Schwimmer [01:25:59] You know, I think. And maybe it's different because I'm an artist. Right. But for me, to me, art in that creative realm of the brain is spiritual.

John Dehlin [01:26:09] Right.

Benji Schwimmer [01:26:10] Because it's something that we're creating from nothing. Right. It's a force that's invisible. And I feel in tune with my own sense of spirituality through art, through expression. And I think it's always been that case. I think preaching in Oaxaca was art.

Benji Schwimmer [01:26:28] It was poem. Right. It was physical service. It was labors of love. So to me, I don't worry about how is my spirituality. I worry about how is my mental and emotional state, because the spirituality will shine through in the art. Personally, I like connecting with friends. I like connecting with individuals. I like having intimate conversations. I like memories. You know, recently, something that happened in my life recently, I think that maybe the members would be curious about is my father. If you did see so youo Think youk Can Dance. You know, my dad was the guy that wore the electric sign that cheered me on all the time.

Benji Schwimmer [01:27:04] He was my first dance coach. He's an amazing dancer. I'm gonna post on Facebook today a video that we just found of my dad dancing when I was still inside the womb. My dad was baller. He was badass. He's a genius.

Benji Schwimmer [01:27:18] And my dad has been really sick. Very, very sick. He has Agent Orange poisoning from serving in Vietnam as a medic. And he was in, like, the worst parts of Vietnam, right through the rivers, and even his legs are discolored from crossing the rivers, from the poison itself. And he's had a myriad of illnesses and faulty heart, faulty kidneys, faulty liver, faulty this, that, and the other, to the point that he's just been very, very sick. And I've had Mormon friends in particular jump on that. When I told friends and family that my dad was relatively terminal, that he's got a very short window to live and stay with us, immediately half my Mormon fans and family were like, if there's anything we can do, we love you.

Benji Schwimmer [01:27:59] And then the other half were, it's about time that you accept the priesthood back in your lives for a blessing. And one that turned me off, like, you have no idea. Because to me, all you would have to do is just say, if you need anything, we're here.

Benji Schwimmer [01:28:13] You don't have to force the preaching on me at any moment, but I have had a lot of Mormon friends and even some ex Mormon friends that have asked me, now that you've been faced with the first loss, a potential loss in your life, what do you.

Benji Schwimmer [01:28:26] How do you cope with that? When you found out that your dad had very little left to live, did you pray? What was your first instinct? And you know what's funny? I didn't. That's what's crazy in any. I actually thought I probably would have, like. And I think all of us, maybe at one time, a lot of us ex believers would probably do, like, if there is a God, I'm gonna be praying to this God, Please, God, help if you could. If not, I totally get It. I'm not really doing my thing here. Like, I think people do that sometimes, but I don't want to play that game.

Benji Schwimmer [01:29:00] I know, like, I'm flawed as they come, as flawed as they come. But deep down inside, I think I'm a good person. I can say that as much of a perfectionist in the darkness that I have inside me, I think I'm a good person. And I try and be kind and honest to people, and I try and help people, and I work hard and I try and set a good example to my students and people and friends.

Benji Schwimmer [01:29:24] And I feel like that's as much of a spiritual practice that I can do. I think it's that. That alone just showing kindness. So if there's any faith that I follow, it's just trying to give a little kindness back to the world and also working to create a good, positive legacy for yourself in whatever you do.

Benji Schwimmer [01:29:43] With my dad, instead of praying for him to be healed, I research and webmd the shit out of the Internet. I call out every doctor if they did one thing wrong. I am on top of it. I'm sharp. Instead of hoping, I'm acting, I am doing, doing whatever I can to help my dad. And we actually found an experimental procedure that had I not been focused, he would have already been dead. And so what I'm counting now, instead of sitting on my knees, I'm opening my eyes and I.

Benji Schwimmer [01:30:14] And I, And I. And I'm so grateful for every moment that I have with him. I'm cherishing moments more now because I don't know if there's an after. I don't think there's an after. But I know there's a legacy left. And I think it's more important to leave legacy and to remember and to make memories than to just cognitively think that something will be better after the fact.

Benji Schwimmer [01:30:49] I don't want that for myself. I don't want to cheat myself out of that with my dad or my mother when it happens, or with my sister or my family or my future husband or my children. I don't want to cheat myself and say, well, we'll have the next life. I personally believe that that's a cop out. And you're missing out on the now. You're missing out on every possible moment you could have to live.

Benji Schwimmer [01:31:15] The church was a numbing agent for me. It was a heavy weight and it was a numbing agent. And in this case, I personally feel like I am living my life and I'm loving my life. Whatever problems or Traumas we have. What's great about the trauma of my dad being sick, John, is that I could be sad about him being sick and just think, I'll enjoy you later in heaven. Or I can say, yeah, it sucks, but let's enjoy now. Let's laugh, I'll be your wingman, let's pick up on women, let's do whatever. Like, I tell him about butt sex and he laughs. He thinks it's great.

Benji Schwimmer [01:31:51] Like, I took him to a comedy show that was a gay themed night and they picked him out of the audience and like, oh, is that your son? And in gay terms, that's your younger boyfriend. He's like, yeah, this is my son.

Benji Schwimmer [01:32:02] And so, like, you know what I mean? Like, it's just family. Isn't it about time? Fuck yeah, it is. Your time with your family, with your friends, with your life is now. And that's all that I know. And I don't know anything else.

Benji Schwimmer [01:32:17] You can believe in string theory, you can believe in quantum this and that, you can believe in Buddhism, you can believe in Taoism, whatever. There's so many things to believe in. I just know that what I have is short with the ones that I love. And I want to make the best of it and the most of it. And ultimately that's what I love, that's what I respect.

John Dehlin [01:32:34] So what if when you die, that's it? What if that's the end of Benji? What do you think about that?

Benji Schwimmer [01:32:40] If I die? When I die, When I die, what's really cool? Similar. I'm actually retiring at the end of this year in my final world competition, my final world championships. And I know that I've left the legacy. And ultimately, in a universal perspective, we're not even a pale blue dot on the radar, right? We're nothing, two seconds, it's nothing, right? But for the time being, I know that I will have a lasting effect on the lives of people. Whether it's through my words, of what I've done to come out, whether it's through my dancing and my art, which I think is the biggest thing that I'll probably leave.

Benji Schwimmer [01:33:15] But more than anything, my friends, my family, my lover, that's the only legacy that I need. My future children, they'll continue, they'll grow, you know, hopefully I'll be able to rear them up. But if I were to die today, then I would die a happy man. I will die knowing that I did everything that I could to make the best of it. And I think that's ultimately all that any of us could ever ask, am I perfect? No. Am I worrying about an atonement? No. Do I have a checkboard of every error that I've ever made? Not anymore. And yeah. So if this giant ceiling fan falls on top of me right now, you heard it first and you heard it last.

Benji Schwimmer [01:34:01] I'm dying happy, so it's okay. And that's life. And if I was dying slowly, I don't think I would fear the afterlife. I wouldn't fear purgatory, because I do remember from the first podcast when I had that spiritual experience, you'd have to watch it. I don't want to recount the whole thing, but that still small voice told me it was okay to leave.

Benji Schwimmer [01:34:23] So whether that was my subconscious, whether that was the universe, intelligent design, God, Elohim, whatever, doesn't matter. I'm grateful for it either way. I'm grateful for the journey, and I'm where I need to be. So that. That's what I know. That's what I feel. That's that.

John Dehlin [01:34:46] So in terms of. And that was beautiful. Thank you. How can you retire? How? You're still young, you're still talented. Some would say you're at the top of your game. What if, you know, some might say, I don't believe he's retiring. He'll say that, but he'll be back in a couple years. Or do you even know how much you're going to miss it, how devastating that'll be? And when you say retire, you mean from competing at the World Swing Dance Championship.

Benji Schwimmer [01:35:14] Right? Right.

John Dehlin [01:35:15] What? We'll talk about how sure you can. You can retire.

Benji Schwimmer [01:35:19] Well, so, okay, so.

John Dehlin [01:35:20] And why.

Benji Schwimmer [01:35:22] I've been doing this since I was a kid. I've been competing since I was, you know, three. I've been competing as an adult since I was 17. And it's not that it's not a challenge, because the challenge is always just yourself. It's beating yourself. It's getting better every year.

John Dehlin [01:35:38] I.

Benji Schwimmer [01:35:39] There's a couple of reasons why. One of them was Kobe Bryant, who's an idol of mine. We've talked about. About this before, John. I'm a huge basketball Laker, in particular, Kobe Bryant fan, and it was one of those things where his body started to break down because he worked so hard. Right. Ah, but you can play into your 40s. Yeah, but I'd be playing at 40%, and I'm an alpha when it comes to this stuff. And I. If I can't kill, I'd rather retire. And I think I want to go out in my prime, I don't want to go out when I'm tapering down. And I think I've created a piece this year that it's kind of my way to let the world know that it's a letter to the dance world, basically.

Benji Schwimmer [01:36:19] And it's just kind of a full spectrum appreciation for what I've had on the dance floor, what I've been able to share, what I experience behind, like, kind of removing the curtain. It kind of talks about what I'm actually feeling behind the smile, behind the rhinestones, behind the big tricks and dips and this, that and the other. And then I knew it was gonna be this year or next year. It was just a matter of listening to my body. Like, I have a dislocated pelvis right now. I have a cracked rib, two fractures in my left foot right now I'm a walking sore, sore man.

Benji Schwimmer [01:36:53] And the thing is, I could downgrade my dance level and still probably win, but that's not what it's about for me. It's not about beating people. I don't care about that at all. In fact, half of my competition, I choreograph and coach in hopes that they could beat me.

Benji Schwimmer [01:37:08] But it's more about wanting to finish maximum with a legacy. And so for me, ultimately, I'm going to retire because I also don't know how much more time I have left with my family. And it would not be right to hold that trophy up without my entire family there, without my mom and my dad, because they. They taught me everything before I could walk. There's a video of me dancing in a Johnny Jut Pup. They hold. They held one side, and my feet are kicking to the legs like I was dancing before I was walking. And even if people don't appreciate dance, I think they can either appreciate the sport of it or the nostalgia of what I've encountered.

Benji Schwimmer [01:37:50] My grandfather was a swing dancer. My dad's a swing dancer. My mom's a swing. Like a brilliant gymnast, ballroom dancer, ballet dancer, my parents do it all. And they may not have been able to provide certain things, but they provided me with this gift to cultivate my talents. And I want to give my mom and dad that satisfaction in seeing me take my final bow. And I'm doing it for them. I could have retired years ago.

Benji Schwimmer [01:38:19] I have nothing to prove. Nothing to prove except for can I do it one more time and can I be better? And I will. Broken or not, doesn't matter. Humpty Dumpty KT tape. My entire body it's gonna happen.

Dancing, Family, and Final Reflections

John Dehlin [01:38:33] So ultimately you want your parents, including your dad, who is. Are you saying he's terminal? Is that.

Benji Schwimmer [01:38:39] Yeah, that's relatively the case, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:41] You want him to be there?

Benji Schwimmer [01:38:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:43] You want him to see that final performance?

Benji Schwimmer [01:38:46] Yeah, I do. And he took a special surgery a couple months back to prolong his situation. He had six days to live. And I told him, I'm like, dad, this is my last year. I want you to be there. And it was one of the things that I said. I told him, I said I wanted to compete one more time and I wanted him to be there for my retirement. And he decided to take the procedure subsequently because of that. And so I'm doing this for a different reason now. It's wonderful to do. It's not for money or titles or fame. It's literally just to give back.

Benji Schwimmer [01:39:18] And it's wonderful. And I feel much more motivated. And I'm actually looking forward, John. The moment I retire, I won't have to think about competition. So I could do a dance video every week. Just to do it. Just to choreograph more. Just to do something different. You know, choreograph a Broadway show, do this, that and the other. To be able to do that. It would be great. People feel like they talk about so youo Thinking youg Dance because they probably haven't seen some of the stuff that I've done because it's been in this bubble of competition and that's okay. And so I think it's time for me to be known.

Benji Schwimmer [01:39:46] I have a TV show in the works. I have a deal that I'm working through through Netflix that we're looking on doing a new show. And all of that's going to be happening in the next year. But I wouldn't be able to focus on those lifelong things. Like, I make decent money, I can support myself, but I want to support a family and have the security. And I can't spend $5,000 on physical therapy bills and special diets. I want to be able to raise a family. And so I need to convert my work for the next goal in my life. And that's to have the family, to have the white picket fence, to have the beautiful husband.

Benji Schwimmer [01:40:22] And to do that, I need to retire. You have to be very self centered and focused when you're a competitor. And it's time for me to open my wings a little bit and to care for others in a different light. And if I don't take away this dark passenger of competitive behaviors and energy, it Just won't happen for me.

John Dehlin [01:40:42] So you want a traditional marriage in the sense of a monogamous partner and possibly kids?

Benji Schwimmer [01:40:48] Yeah, I do. And John, I haven't had it for a very long time, and this was actually an awakening. Once my dad sat me in his deathbed, basically before he got that procedure. He said, benji, you've taken care of boyfriends that don't love you. You've taken care of your family. You've taken care of me for six years since I've been sick. He's like, when are you gonna find happiness and take care of yourself? And that hit me really hard. And I love dancing so much, and it's not gonna change. If anything, I'm gonna be able to embrace dancing even more. And I love it. I'm gonna be able to teach and work with people even more.

Benji Schwimmer [01:41:19] And the moment that Buddy Schwimmer is no longer able to be here and to teach, I never will be able to do it. But somebody's gotta try and fill in his shoes and. And if I'm focused as a competitor, I will not have the awareness and the mindfulness that he has being a non competitor. And so to honor my family, I want to do that.

Benji Schwimmer [01:41:40] And I don't want to go down at 80% if I'm not going to be fucking 100. I don't want to do it at all. So there's that too, which is a common theme in my life, I guess. But yeah, go big, go home.

John Dehlin [01:41:54] I love it. So, final message. A lot of our listeners asked you if you could speak to your younger self. And you've said it throughout. But let's just. If you want to summarize.

Benji Schwimmer [01:42:05] Sure.

John Dehlin [01:42:06] If you could speak to your younger self or if there's young gay Mormon men that are either in the church or about to leave or doubting or just humans.

Benji Schwimmer [01:42:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:42:17] Who are living their life, Mormon or not.

Benji Schwimmer [01:42:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:42:20] And you're giving, you're giving wisdom or perspective or advice to kind of those people. But if you want to target it to a young gay Mormon man. But I think this wisdom is for all of us, not just them.

Benji Schwimmer [01:42:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:42:33] What, what would you, what would you say?

Benji Schwimmer [01:42:35] It's funny. It's funny you talk about, like, I know a lot of people always talk about if you could talk to your younger self. Like, one thing that I have on my phone right now, literally, is a picture of me as a kid. Goofy eyed, cross eyed, goofy.

John Dehlin [01:42:48] That's you?

Benji Schwimmer [01:42:48] That's me. Yeah. That's little Benji, man. Daniel Schwimmer. And I recently, as I've been trying to go through this experience of understanding myself. And just as I'm transitioning from the retirement thing and I'm gearing up to hopefully prepare for a family someday, sooner than later. And I've been reminded through my dad's experience and my mom, I need to give her credit. My mom, Lori, she has been such a rock. My parents have been devoted for like 15 years. She's at his bedside. She's with me. She's helping me run the dance studio when my dad was.

John Dehlin [01:43:23] She's at her divorced husband's bedside.

Benji Schwimmer [01:43:25] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:43:26] And they run this operation together.

Benji Schwimmer [01:43:28] We run the studio together.

John Dehlin [01:43:29] Yeah. As a divorced couple.

Benji Schwimmer [01:43:31] Yeah. Yeah. My parents are awesome in that sense. And even to this day, my dad, my mom, my sister and I, usually once a month we all get together and have a family dinner. It's pretty cool. It's pretty badass.

Benji Schwimmer [01:43:41] That's maybe a Mormon thing that we've actually kept intact, so to speak. We have our monthly family home evening. But, you know, she's been amazing in this, this whole time because she's really stepped up and realized, look, this is our family unit, whether it's fragmented or not.

Benji Schwimmer [01:43:56] And we've really been embraced. We've embraced one another during this time with my dad's issues and to talk about my inner child, to talk about my. To young Benji, man, you know, I think about that every day. And I think what I'm doing right now in my life, and this is kind of a new thing for me, John, is I'm living that. So if there's anything that I could tell him, it's not.

Benji Schwimmer [01:44:23] Except instead of giving my past self advice, I'm going to say this. I would love. I would love everybody that's listening that might be struggling, that might be unhappy, just to know that if you could go back and tell yourself that you're living the life that you've always wanted, that you're loving, you feel love, you're being loved, you're honest, you can wake up. And even if you've had a bad day, overall, it's still a great place to be.

Benji Schwimmer [01:45:00] You're fulfilling your dreams beyond what you ever expected as a child. To say that, I think is the most amazing thing is the most ultimate and wonderful goal. And I hope that everybody's watching this, that they could get a sense of. If there's something in your personal life that isn't getting you there, if you would have to lie to your past self about your great life, then Maybe you need to make some changes.

Benji Schwimmer [01:45:33] I'm loved, I'm loving, I'm healthy, I'm caring for others, I'm being cared for, I'm successful, I'm working hard, I want more, I want to give back more. And I think if my younger self could hear those words from me, I think he would be happy, he would be content.

Benji Schwimmer [01:45:54] And yeah, life throws you curve balls. Like, who knew I was going to be a homo, right? Who knew I would be this, that and the other. But on the flip side, I work hard and I know that I'm working as hard as I ever can. And to tell my past self that I think is a great thing. So if anybody's listening, maybe the advice that I would just give is if you could go back and have a conversation and actually just catch up with your inner child and let them know what you're doing as opposed to giving them advice, I think that would be the ultimate space to be in.

Benji Schwimmer [01:46:25] And to be honest with you, John, I don't think even six months ago I would be able to say that authentically. I would probably just give advice to change and fix. And I'm not saying that I've arrived anywhere. I just feel like I'm on the right path. I've broken free from a lot of things and I feel like I'm living as authentic as I can be. And I'm sure that there's going to be some other roadblocks coming up that I'm going to have to deal with a lot in the coming year. But retirement or not, spirituality or not, all these things just. I want to be able to just continue to build happiness, not, not to be happy, you don't have to arrive to it, but just to build toward happiness constantly. And I think that that's a realistic thing for anybody in this world.

John Dehlin [01:47:08] And if, and if somebody says, yeah, Benji, but you're a world famous dancer champion, I'm living this normal, even mundane TV 9 to 5 life. You know, your wisdom doesn't apply to me because I'm not a movie TV star.

Benji Schwimmer [01:47:23] Yeah, I think that's a, that's a great thing to say. If, if anybody knows me, they realize that my career, like I am tortured every day about being better, about sacrificing more, about just living in your passion. But outside of that, my happiness has very little to do with what I do for a job. I mean, I love to perform, I love to practice, I love to train. But notice what I just said earlier on, the things that I was really happy about was that I am loved and I am able to feel love and give love. I'm not referring to fans. I'm not referring to how many Instagram followers I have.

Benji Schwimmer [01:48:01] I'm not referring to what famous person I just worked with or choreographed for. What I'm referring to is a partner. I'm referring to my best friends, Elizabeth and Jessica and Josh and Ricky. Like, people names. My dad, my mom, my sister, my cousin, the loves of my life.

Benji Schwimmer [01:48:22] Those. Those things. That's what I'm talking about. I don't care about the. The hoopla and the titles and this, that and the other. Like, as a competitor, yeah, great. But I was talking about happiness, intimacy, personal stuff. People talk about so youo Think youk Can Dance. As if. I hold that as, like, a big thing. It was a great moment, great experience, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But I want to be loved by a person, not by masses. That's great, fantastic. But it doesn't stroke my ego so that I can go to bed at night feeling good about myself.

Benji Schwimmer [01:48:58] So I think, if that helps a little bit, not to say woe is me. Cause I have a great life. I'm grateful for what I have, but I'm talking about that more on an interpersonal level and an internal level. And that has nothing to do with that. How many Amy Winehouses, how many Jimi Hendrixes do we have to have in the world to realize you have everything, Parenthetically everything, and yet you're unhappy on the inside? My level of success, my level of exposure has nothing to do with my happiness. Nothing. And I can testify to that because of the people of Oaxaca, most of them have absolutely nothing.

Benji Schwimmer [01:49:33] And yet they're the happiest people I know, the most loving people that I know. And so it has nothing, nothing to do with this spectrum of fame and celebrity? Screw that. It's stupid. Everybody poops. We're human beings, for crying out loud. So whether you relate to that or not, buddy, hope you do. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:49:54] All right. Well, Benji, is there anything else I didn't ask you that you wanted to say, or do you feel like. Do you feel like you said everything you wanted to say?

Benji Schwimmer [01:50:04] I think I've said so much, I'm surprised you even allowed me to do a second one. John. I keep telling me, Benji, I listened to all four and a half hours of your first one. Well, you're gonna do it again, people, so thank you. I'm sorry.

Benji Schwimmer [01:50:17] You're welcome. Just. I wanted to thank you, though, John. I'm so proud of you. As a person, I know we don't keep in touch all the time, but I also know that you help so many people and people probably ask a lot of you constantly. And I'm sure that that can be a very heavy thing to deal with. And so I admire you from afar.

Benji Schwimmer [01:50:41] I support you. I support the people that support you. I'm one of them. And I hope. And here's to another thousand, man. You know, here's to another thousand. And keep changing the world because you really are making our lives a better place. I would hope that a lot of us would arrive to these conclusions often, but I don't think we would do it with as much of a landing space, a safe landing as we would without you. So thank you. I love you. Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:51:09] Love you too, brother. Yeah. Thank you.

Benji Schwimmer [01:51:11] Thanks, man.

John Dehlin [01:51:12] Thank you, Benji.

Benji Schwimmer [01:51:13] Air hug.

John Dehlin [01:51:15] I'll be right there. Everyone who's who's stuck with us, thank you so much for joining us today. Benji Schwimmer, everybody. Episodes 1000, 1001, 1002, probably 1003 of Mormon stories podcast just happened. Thanks to everyone who joined us on Facebook live. Huge shout out and thanks to Bill Moore, to Lynn Moore, to the Moore family, that, that's. That sponsored this episode financially and also with his blood, sweat and tears here editing on the side. Thank you to everyone who donates to and supports Mormon Stories podcast. Thanks to Cody Layton who says that he's blushed more than once in this interview.

Benji Schwimmer [01:51:57] Oh, oh, snap. Is Cody, is he family? Is he.

John Dehlin [01:52:00] No, no, Cody, he's a. He's. I don't want to out him but he does the editing audio, video.

Benji Schwimmer [01:52:05] Oh, right on for me. Right on.

John Dehlin [01:52:07] He's got his own story.

Benji Schwimmer [01:52:08] It's all about butt sex, Cody. It's all about butt sex.

John Dehlin [01:52:10] But thanks to Cody Layton. Thanks to the OSF board. You know, Craig Woodfield, Nadine McCombs Hansen, Kim Sandberg Turner, Steve Holbrook and Jeremy McDonald. Thanks to all of them for making this possible. Thanks to you for tuning in. Please share this Please share it on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, email groups. Please share this episode and others that makes a huge difference like us on like the Mormon Stories podcast page on Facebook. Give us a positive review. Give us a five star review on, on itunes. That makes a big difference and, and mostly just keep sending us your emails. Mormonstoriesmail.com comment on the blog blog posts. Just thank you for all your support over the years.

John Dehlin [01:53:02] You guys have all made this possible through your encouragement, through your donations, through your support, through your love. So thank you. It's been an amazing gift to bring to you. 1,000 hours plus of interviews, and I think we're just getting going. We're just scratching the surface.

John Dehlin [01:53:22] We're really proud to have our Mormons Stories billboard that's flying proudly at I15 around, I don't know, 3300 south facing southward. Thanks to everyone who donated to make that billboard possible. It's going to be running all the way through Christmas and New Year's, but we're going to keep flying the Mormon Stories flag for as long as as you guys will support us. So thanks for your support. Keep it up. We love you. We want to do more cool things in the. In the months and years ahead. We want to keep interviewing bishops who have lost their faith. We want to keep interviewing survivors where the sexual abusers were protected and the victims were covered up.

John Dehlin [01:54:02] We want to do more interviews with former people that we've interviewed on Mormon stories in years past. We want to bring them back. We want to do more mixed faith marriage stuff. We want to do more cool and creative interviews. We want to interview people of other religious traditions and their faith crises and what's happened. There's so much that we can and will do in the years ahead. Benji's doing a selfie, so I'm gonna wave as Benji does the selfie. Is this a video? It's a video, yeah. All right, you post that. Thanks, Benji. You're awesome. Anyway, thanks to everyone for tuning in. Tune in again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast.

John Dehlin [01:54:38] We love you. We're signing off. And we'll see you again soon, everybody. We'll see you for a thousand, maybe even 1500 more. All right, everybody, take care. Thanks again. Take care, everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.