Welcome to Mormon Questions on Air

Carah Burrell [00:00:00] Hey. Hello, everyone, and welcome to another special episode of Mormon Stories, a new little show that John and I are putting together called Mormon Questions on air with John and Carah. Sometimes I like to call it With John and Care, but no one's calling

John Dehlin [00:00:16] me that because it rhymes. Because it rhymes on the air with John and Care.

Carah Burrell [00:00:19] If you can think of a better name, you let me know. Today is kind of a special episode. We are going to be doing these kind of weekly episodes about the Mormon news sphere and answering questions, kind of making this like a fun interactive dialogue between me, John and the live chat on Facebook and YouTube. And to kick off this new week, October 13th is today.

John Dehlin [00:00:41] Today is both Aaron's birthday, your husband's birthday, my husband's birthday, and Margi's birthday. Is that like a celestial sign that we were meant to collaborate because our spouse's share birthday, or is that just a random coincidence?

Carah Burrell [00:00:54] That's so perfect because it's one of those days where I was like, I need to today off at Forks for my husband. And he's like, oh. Because it's also Margi's birthday. So the only thing that we are doing working today is being with you fine folks. So the rest of the day we're taking off to be with our spouses for their birthday. So a lot of people on Instagram were messaging me about the church is reopening of the Mesa Temple and that they kind of held a social media influencer kind of media day and. And a lot of Mormon influencers, social media influencers, were posting about it. And that kind of leads into a discussion that I want to have about the role of influencers in the church, the churches using them, and then also the way that the temple is kind of like the pinnacle for churches PR and the way that the church is just consistently opening new and new temples and kind of asking the question, is that what the people really want? So that's one segment that we're going to kind of go into a little bit later. And before that, we also want to talk about our temple experiences, John and I's. Because John, John went through the temple pre1990 and if you know your Mormon history, you know that that's a big distinction, that there's pre1990 temple endowment and post and that there's just significant changes that went through that. So I wanted to start off talking about our temple experiences as well. And then in the middle of this little dialogue, I have a very, very special guest, John, who am I bringing

John Dehlin [00:02:18] on The Laura Schnell.

Carah Burrell [00:02:20] Laura Schnell. Maybe one of my favorite human beings ever. I don't know, probably my favorite Mormon stories ever. We had Mark Oslin, seminary teacher in Utah County. His pal, Laura Schnell, also former seminary teacher, something's going on in Utah county, who also had a Mormon Stories interview. She's from Columbia, immigrated to the US As a child and became a seminary teacher and came on and told her story, a really beautiful three part story on Mormon stories. See, back in September. So I'm excited to have her on. She'll come on in about a half an hour from now. So without further to do, should we kick it off?

Are Mormon Temples a Mockery of Jesus?

John Dehlin [00:02:56] Yeah. And I, if I had to restate kind of what I thought of as we were planning for this episode, the question that came to my mind is, are Mormon temples a mockery of Jesus and the Book of Mormon? And that's kind of thrown down a little bit and kind of that leads us to the disclaimer, which is like, in Mormonism, you just don't talk about the temple. It's sacred, it's private, and it's considered like sacrilegious.

Carah Burrell [00:03:20] I'm only excited because I have some rants later. But you're gonna have to like, you're gonna have to wait till later because I have so many opinions on that. But the first and foremost one is that we are not going to be disrespectful to believing Mormons listening to this. I know that anytime we talk about, not intentionally, okay, we're going to talk about our opinions on the way that the church as a corporation and organization, how it could do better to live up to the standards of what they claim to be, you know, the one true church of Jesus Christ, we're gonna talk about that. And so we're gonna say some hard things. But to be purposely like, we're not doing any handshakes or anything, like, don't worry. And I also just wanna make the clear distinction from the get go that I understand that life is hard and people find spiritual fulfillment and meaning in a myriad of different things. And one of them in Mormonism is going through the temple, going to the temple, doing work for the dead. And so if that's where people find their spiritual fulfillment, that's not something that I would demonize and I would mock. But I'm also gonna, we are gonna walk a fine line that today. And I wanna put that up. Somebody who paid their tithing, who paid their dues, who went through the temple, I'm going to Be talking about my experiences and that's not something I feel that anyone should be able to. I wouldn't muzzle them. I'm not going to be muzzled and be completely restricted on the things that I want to talk about.

John Dehlin [00:04:33] Yeah. So informed consent. We are going to be talking about the temples today, and we think that that's healthy and important. And we think that by making the temples so secret and by forbidding conversations about it, I think progress is limited and a lot of harm is done.

Carah Burrell [00:04:48] Yeah, well, I definitely want to get into that. I have again, I have some rants prepared.

John Dehlin [00:04:51] Yeah. So. So we're going to be talking about our experiences in the temple and then we're going to be talking about the modern Mormon Temple initiative and why we think there might be problems with it based on Jesus's standards in the Book of Mormon standards, not on ex Mormon standards. Does that make sense?

Carah Burrell [00:05:07] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:05:07] So we're kind of assessing the church by its own values, by its own claim, scripture and values. Right.

Carah Burrell [00:05:13] Right on.

John Dehlin [00:05:13] So if you're uncomfortable with the discussion of the Mormon Temple, please end it now. And then you can't say we violated your, I don't know, spiritual well being or good feelings.

Carah Burrell [00:05:24] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:05:24] Okay.

Carah Burrell [00:05:25] Yeah. But if you are a progressive Mormon or any Mormon who's listening to this, we'll do our best to keep this not too, I don't know, not to fill in the blank, but I have a lot to say around the way that church changes over time, and that is through speaking out about things. And again, if the temple is like the pinnacle where I feel like it's like the meeting spot of so many problems within Mormonism and the church benefits from calling it sacred, calling it, you know, too spiritual, too secret to really discuss openly. The only way that a lot of the things around blacks in the priesthood, the temple, ban sexism in the temple, the only way that these things have changed is from outside pressure from people talking about it. And the only place that the church benefits is just the top leadership. From acting like these changes didn't happen, from acting like the ordinances have stayed the same. And if we want to see progress and if we want Mormons to benefit from the progress that has been made, we need to speak out.

John Dehlin [00:06:24] Yeah. And the church keeps everyone silent about the temples to its own detriment and to the world's detriment. So we're talking about it and I think it might make sense to just quickly show a little bit of numbers. If you look at this recent post on Reddit, it Shows just how crazy Russell M. Nelson, the current Mormon prophet, has gotten with temples. So what this graph shows is since the inception of the church, how many temples have been announced. And what it shows is that Nelson has like tripled or quadrupled the number of temples announced compared to any other former prophet or administration. He's announced twice the number of temples that Hinckley's announced, maybe five or six times the amount that Kimball has announced. And I think temple building is kind of what probably being a prophet means most to him is announcing a gazillion temples.

Carah Burrell [00:07:12] Right, right.

John Dehlin [00:07:12] When you add to that how much money each temple costs. And because the church and open about its finances, we don't know, but it has to be hundreds of millions of dollars for a temple.

Carah Burrell [00:07:23] I said once on a TikTok, like a hundred billion dollars, not 100 billion. Sorry, 100 million for a temple. For a temple. And I got sorely corrected by the Mormons in the comments, which is actually kind of a funny joke because nobody can correct me because we don't know. So I just, I threw out a guess. So.

John Dehlin [00:07:38] So a gazillion. How about we just say a gazillion. So each temple costs a gazillion dollars. But then when you add to that all the time that Mormons are spending work the money along with the time that Mormons spend, it's a really important question, what goes on in these temples and why is that potentially a problem?

Carah Burrell [00:07:58] Yeah.

What Actually Happens Inside the Temple

John Dehlin [00:07:58] Okay, so let's begin with what goes on in the temple.

Carah Burrell [00:08:01] All right, John, you want to start it off?

John Dehlin [00:08:02] Yeah. And, and we can monitor. So listeners and viewers, if any of you guys want to share your early temple experiences. But this is also for non Mormons that just have no idea. They see these temples and they're like, what. What goes on in them? Right?

Carah Burrell [00:08:13] Yeah. And again, it goes back to the informed consent idea because we're going to get into social media influencers showing off how beautiful the temples are, how extravagant and opulent, and all of the things that make people stop and say, oh, wow, I want to go tour it. But there's also the other side of it that only Mormons see. It's not just a pretty building. It's also sometimes carries a lot of trauma for people. It carries a lot of sexism. It carries a lot of like, people are mentioning the, the mural in the Mesa temple that they did hold onto that we can show right now if John, you want to bring that up.

John Dehlin [00:08:42] So what's. So for the listeners. For the listeners, what they see here, what are they seeing in this?

Carah Burrell [00:08:47] Native American folks getting baptized is a.

John Dehlin [00:08:51] By a super white dude.

Carah Burrell [00:08:52] Super white dude. And there's another one, I think of Joseph and Hyrum preaching to, preaching to

John Dehlin [00:08:56] a bunch of Native Americans.

Carah Burrell [00:08:58] A giant mural on the wall.

John Dehlin [00:08:59] So what's wrong with this photo for you, Carah?

Carah Burrell [00:09:02] Well, the church got its founding off of kind of a, a white supremacist idea that there's no way that this civilization, these mound builders, there must be an explanation for how these Native Americans got here and how all this work together. And it can only be that they used to be white. And now from their sinful ways, they have dark skin. And we white people need to bring them into the true gospel, get them baptized. These are the Lamanites from the Book of Mormon and we need to call them to repentance, basically. So just co opting an entire, you know, civilization. Civilization. Couple dozen, couple, maybe 100, who knows how many, how many Native American tribes that there are. South America, North America, all over, being told what their history is and shoehorning in. Yeah, they're a new identity. So just that, that stuff is just part of the bigger conversation that I think we want to have about what the church's images that they want to put forward and what the realistic Mormon experiences going through the temple.

John Dehlin [00:10:11] So I think is it okay to say that to begin with, the reason why we have Mormon temples, I mean there's a lot of things, some say that it had a lot to do with Joseph wanting to secretly practice polygamy and needing the secret kind of Masonic brotherhood or sisterhood to keep everything secret and to have this group of secret, super secret insiders. But one of the core Mormon doctrines I think that drives temple work is just this idea that, that, that ordinances are required to get into heaven. So for example, there's a ton of people that, okay, so it starts with authority, that you have to have the right authority to start a church and to get baptized into the right church. And if you have, if you're baptized into the wrong church, you can't get to heaven. Right. And the wrong baptism doesn't get you there. Plus you've got all these people that were never baptized into any church at all who have lived over the past several millennia as that's my problem. So billions of billions of people that have lived on the earth or are living now have not gotten their baptism, have not gotten their temple marriage and so they're not going to be able to enter into heaven and, or the highest degree of heaven. So how do you get their baptism? How do you get them their baptism, especially if they've died? How do you get them their temple marriage if they're going to make celestial kingdom? That's where temples come in. Temples are the place where dead people, well, we're living people who are part of God's one true church can get their baptism. No, no. Can get their endowments and can get their temple marriage. And then temples are also where dead people or people that never joined the God's one true church can get their baptism and their confirmation. And then they can get their temple

Carah Burrell [00:11:53] marriage and their endowments in the afterlife

John Dehlin [00:11:56] to be able to go to the highest degree of heaven. Isn't that how it all starts?

Carah Burrell [00:11:59] Because Mormonism is all about equity and what's fair. And it would be super unfair if all only the Mormons in this dispensation got these ordinances. You got to give it to everyone.

John Dehlin [00:12:10] It would basically mean God only loves Utah's and Idaho and white Utah and Idahoans and he doesn't love anybody else.

Carah Burrell [00:12:16] Yeah. So what I always like to say is it's actually my pin tweet on my Twitter is that, hey, if the Mormon gospel is as great as they say it is like that my parents are so upset that I'm not living. You know, it just makes a gal wonder. JOHN delayed and audience why 99.999999% of everybody who's ever lived has never enjoyed the blessings of the gospel? Um, why would God set that system up that way? Furthermore, seems kind of unfair, but Mormons are quick to correct me. Temple work, everyone will have their ordinances done for them. And I would just like to ask again, tell me why still 99.999% of humanity is even known to the modern day of whose temple work needs to be done? Because you have to wait till the millennium, till Christ comes, till we have a thousand years to do temple work. Wouldn't it just make more sense to like be building soup kitchens and say, let's do temple work when the millennium, let's. When we have all the names. When you have all the names. When Jesus comes back. We'll do the temple work then and yeah, but we're building the temples now. We're going to this like country club kind of like us versus them. We get to go inside here, do some dunks for our ancestors. When just big picture, to me, it seems like it is not moving the needle whatsoever on what humanity actually needs.

John Dehlin [00:13:35] So you're just jumping to the end of the episode right now.

Carah Burrell [00:13:37] No, I. I haven't even began. Begun to rant.

John Dehlin [00:13:41] Okay.

Carah Burrell [00:13:41] But we are going to talk about our temple experiences, and then we need to bring on Laura Schnell to talk about influencers.

Baptisms for the Dead and Temple Requirements

John Dehlin [00:13:45] Yeah. So. So everyone's got to have a bad. A Mormon baptism to make it to heaven. Everybody's got to have a Mormon temple marriage to make it to heaven. That's why we need temples. So the number one thing that happens in Mormon temples is B, baptisms for the dead. True.

Carah Burrell [00:14:00] Yeah, I would say so.

John Dehlin [00:14:01] And Mormons start doing endowments, but Mormons start doing baptisms for the dead at age 12.

Carah Burrell [00:14:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:07] So you get all these youth that. That show up at Mormon temples. And that was my first Mormon temple experience. I'm at the time the old. The closest Mormon temple was in Arizona. There were no temples in Texas yet. I lived in Texas.

Carah Burrell [00:14:22] Wow.

John Dehlin [00:14:22] So we all got in these big buses as a youth group, drove to Mesa. Drove to Mesa, this temple, and we did baptisms for the dead. So you dress up in white. You're 12, 13, 14 years old. You hopefully are worthy, and you get baptized. You stand in the. In the temple font with these men. That's what I did. And a man will baptize you 10 or 15 times in a row for. And in behalf of. For and on behalf of Jose, who is dead. And so you get a little piece of paper. It says Jose. It's got the name, where they were born, the date when they were born, the date that they died. And you, you are baptized. And you say, you know, John de Lynn, having been commissioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you for it in behalf of Jose Alvarez, who is dead.

Carah Burrell [00:15:08] And then somewhere in the spirit world, Jose has just been, like, waiting, waiting, waiting. And he's finally got his ticket. Somebody did his work for him, and now he's like, ding. But that's only, like, one of four ordinances that need to be done.

John Dehlin [00:15:20] Yeah. And. And as a youth, I just remember being told, this is going to be the most spiritual thing that you'll ever experience. You may even see the spirit of one of the people you're getting baptized for as you come out of the water. But it's going to be the most spiritual and amazing thing. And what it really was was just me getting dunked in a font several times. It was cold.

Carah Burrell [00:15:42] You know what it really is?

John Dehlin [00:15:43] What is it?

Carah Burrell [00:15:44] It's actually, ladies, what it actually is is you turning around and having an entire, like, the chapel with the window seeing Your we butt crack, like, with water just, like, sucked to your. And then you're facing all of the men that are doing the ordinances with you. And then the woman hands you a towel, and you just have. You basically are naked, sopping wet in like, it's a wet T shirt contest is what it is in the baptismal font. And you're like, 12, 13, 14, and you were having a panic attack as you walk into the bathrooms. That's what it really is. That's what baptisms as a teenager kind of signify to me, which is just kind of like a clue, like a foreshadowing to the panic attacks to come.

John Dehlin [00:16:26] And, yeah, it is. You're wet, you're. You're cold, your clothes are see through, Everybody's gawking at you. And it is kind of weird. You know, I learned growing up, vain repetitions, prayers with vain repetitions aren't great, you know, as a way to criticize the Catholic Church, I think. And they're kind of, you know, the

Carah Burrell [00:16:45] great and abominable church.

John Dehlin [00:16:46] Yeah, but. But it's just like. John de Lin, I baptize you in the name on behalf of Jose Alvarez, who is dead. John de Lin, I baptize you for. On behalf of, you know, Enrique Hilago. It. It felt weird, and it's mad.

Carah Burrell [00:16:59] Said we laugh, but it was traumatizing. I will find a way to make our trauma a trauma bond and find joy in it. Go on.

John Dehlin [00:17:06] No, no. That's right. Okay. So that. That was my first experience in terms of baptisms for the dead. And every. Every week, in hundreds, you know, dozens, if not over a hundred Mormon temples across the globe, youth are youth and adults are getting baptized for other people.

Carah Burrell [00:17:24] And I just. Yeah, and that's two separate parts of the temple. Like, you. Literally, there are doors that say, if you are not endowed, like an adult who's gone through and taken out your endowments, you can't even go past the store. So the experience that youth have in the temple is one completely separate from the endowed members. And I remember when I was going through the temple when I was 19, I went through December 13, 2008, and I. My mom gave me a little bit of an idea about what I would be wearing, and she laid it out on her bed beforehand. And I still was really confused. Like, I'd be wearing this clothes. I. I was like, somebody will be wearing this. She was trying to prep me. And it wasn't until I was just right past where you give your recommend, where I saw somebody Walking around in the clothes. And I had the most immense sinking feeling where I finally put two and two together. I was like, oh. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. I'm gonna be wearing that. And it was just a countdown of minutes until I would be. I was like, okay, I'm gonna be wearing. I'm gonna be wearing that. There's something that's gonna be happening. I'm not prepared. I'm not prepared. I'm not prepared for what's gonna happen. And it just. It kept getting kind of more and more uncomfortable. It's the nicest word I can think of.

John Dehlin [00:18:31] So Catherine's got a great comment. Catherine writes, they told my girls to stop wearing underwear and bras under the baptismal clothes. To be sure they showed up when the jumper got wet. That was unacceptable. Told them to wear their undies and bras. Anyway, I can't totally interpret what she's saying. Do you want to interpret what she said?

Carah Burrell [00:18:52] Stop wearing underwear and bras. I'm wondering if that's because they were colored. Because they give you. They give you a bra and underwear to wear there that are white. And so I'm wondering if she means, like, that they can't wear the colorful ones. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:19:05] I'm not sure, Cam. Right.

Carah Burrell [00:19:06] All I know, it's. It's super humiliating.

John Dehlin [00:19:07] I mean. Yeah. I mean, I. I think what. What Catherine's talking about is the fact that if you wear normal underwear. Because kids aren't wearing garments by this point. Right. Kids are. So if you wear, like, blue boxers or, like, a pink bra, the ordinance doesn't work. That's. So you can't do that. You can't wear your normal underwear. Well, no, because it looks weird.

Carah Burrell [00:19:24] Looks.

John Dehlin [00:19:25] It's not white, and it has to be white. Yeah, but then if you don't wear that, then you're naked. So. Anyway. Okay. Cam writes, the wet but cheeks trauma was real. That's what calm.

Carah Burrell [00:19:36] I'm here to validate that. I'm here for you guys.

John Dehlin [00:19:39] Yeah. And then healing my Hope says. I remember feeling so embarrassed and afraid. Being soaking wet in white in front of all the neighbor boys. Didn't feel the spirit or safe.

Carah Burrell [00:19:51] Right.

John Dehlin [00:19:51] So isn't there a thing about kind of menstrual cycles and being a teenage girl in the temple? Baptisms for the dead. Do they even try and regulate that?

Carah Burrell [00:20:00] I think you would just say that you're sick and you wouldn't make it. I think if you knew you're just married. You would just be like, that's not for me today. Sorry, young women's group. But John, somebody was asking about what the difference was between before 1990 and afterwards. And so.

The Endowment Ceremony Explained

John Dehlin [00:20:13] Okay, you want to jump to that? So we. That. So badges for the dead is one thing. The other is your endowment. So the endowment is basically this. So Joseph Smith was a Mason. He learned about the Masonic sacred Masonic Temple ritual. He decided to import that into the Mormon Temple experience. And over time, they made the Mormon version of the Masonic Temple endowment a movie. And so what you do is, is where you start out with the washings and anointings. And the way that I went through the washings and anointings was kind of weird and creepy. So I would. So you start out with this shield. It was like a poncho.

Carah Burrell [00:20:53] It was like open, completely open on the side.

John Dehlin [00:20:56] Silky poncho that just had a hole for your head. And then it was like a silky sheet in front and a silky sheet in back and totally open on the sides. You're a thousand percent buck naked. And you go through this ritual called the washings and anointings, where these super old people will take this oil and they'll. They'll. They basically dip a little bit of the oil and they consecrate your forehead, they consecrate your breasts, they consecrate your loins, and they're basically, basically putting oil on different parts of your body and giving, giving, anointing you with a little prayer.

Carah Burrell [00:21:32] And if you're okay with being naked and being touched, it's really spiritual.

John Dehlin [00:21:37] Yeah. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:21:38] I'm actually, I'm half kidding and half serious because I was a little bit more clothed when I went through. But it actually was my favorite part because it's very quiet and dark and meditative.

John Dehlin [00:21:46] And for me, it felt super weird to be naked.

Carah Burrell [00:21:49] But being naked and being touched, you're touched, like right outside your groin, right? Like, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:53] They're like touching you nakedly on your groin area with. With oil. And. And it's weird. And there's a reason why they, they closed up. They. They at some point sewed up the sides of the poncho, right?

Carah Burrell [00:22:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:08] When you went through, did was. Were you naked on the sides?

Carah Burrell [00:22:11] I feel like I was wearing my garments maybe. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:22:13] And then at some point they did they just change it to where they're anointing your head and they don't anoint actual parts of your body.

Carah Burrell [00:22:18] Touch the outside of the poncho.

John Dehlin [00:22:20] Well, the the, it's. The thing is, on the one hand it was super creepy and weird that you're naked and they're touching you with oil. But it's good that they changed it. But then that begs the question, was it ever revelation? Was it ever revealed from God? If it's God's sacred ordinance, but they're changing it, I mean, is that the crux of it?

Carah Burrell [00:22:38] Yeah, the crux of everything about the temple comes down to people complaining that it's either sexist or bigoted or something

John Dehlin [00:22:45] is cultish or something's gone inappropriate.

Carah Burrell [00:22:50] Yeah. And if they're going to build these temples and no one comes, I still feel like, I don't know, people are really still going to the temple, but making it shorter, changing the temple endowments, making it less sexist, changing all of these things. Yeah, that's the question, the million dollar question is, is it revelation or is it just the pressure from people who are the ones who want to attend it and they need to make it more tolerable? Maybe. And I mean, like you were saying about being touched, like in your private areas by basically a stranger while you're

John Dehlin [00:23:22] naked wearing a sheet.

Carah Burrell [00:23:24] Basically, it, it's so many problems within Mormonism is just like you do the thing because you're told that's what you're supposed to do and you're not warned.

John Dehlin [00:23:32] At no point did somebody say to me, you're going to be super naked with only a poncho, silky poncho, while an old dude touches your privates with oil. There was no point where anybody.

Carah Burrell [00:23:42] That's what your parents do, that's what your youth leaders do. You're going on a mission. I was getting married. I had just already met a stranger a couple weeks ago. I was getting married to. He was going to touch my privates really soon. So I was just like, who cares? Just another person. Just another person. It's like, that's just the way that it goes in Mormonism sometimes. What are you going to do?

John Dehlin [00:23:58] Yeah, that's how. Lack of informed consent.

Carah Burrell [00:24:00] Lack of informed consent. And then.

John Dehlin [00:24:02] And cult like. And cult like activity. Honestly, I mean, that's any, Anyone who's. Anyone who went through it felt like it, but you're told, oh, well, that's super spiritual. That's, that's like you say, the pinnacle of Mormon spirituality.

Carah Burrell [00:24:13] And I want to, I want to say that there's a lot of conditioning that goes into that, that you're told that that's the pinnacle of Mormon spirituality. And so if you feel that Cool, great. I don't take that away from you. But if you actually did, who does? Yeah, but there are people who have, I have asked or like, when we go to Thrive retreats or different retreats, we. I asked people during my speech at Especially for Truth who had a good temple experience. And at least, like, I don't know, five women stood up. And it's like, okay, I don't want to take away if that was a good, you know, monumental time in your life, but I also want to explain that, like, maybe, let's just say some of that is conditioning, that that's how you were supposed to feel. But people who didn't feel like that, let's be authentic to the, the culty feelings, the discomfort. And the more that we speak up about it, the more comfortable Mormons are going to have as an experience. The only way that the church, the temple experience changes is by doing that.

John Dehlin [00:25:04] So, yeah, the only, the only other thing that we can say is the actual endowment ceremony. It's like a movie. They show Adam and Eve, they show the creation experience. Experience. They show a lot of planets, they show animals, they show lava. They showed all sorts of, you know, things to signify the creation. And then you, you know what you would learn. The whole, the whole point of the temple ceremony is you have to get your own name. You get to get, you get a new name. And you have to learn these handshakes so that when you go to heaven, they will only let you in if you know your name, you know your partner's name, and you know the right handshakes. You, you make a set of covenants. And then I was given these penalties where you're threatened. If you divulge the signs and the tokens, then here are the penalties that you'll get. So again, you're learning your name, you're being given all these different, three or four different Masonic handshakes that you will need to be able to get into the gates of Heaven. So you're learning handshakes and then you're being threatened with different ways. They'll kill you by slitting your throat, by cutting out your heart, by disemboweling. And you're actually doing that, doing the hand signals for ways you will be violently killed if you ever reveal the secrets of the temple. Yeah, so that's what I went for.

Carah Burrell [00:26:23] The covenant that you're making is directly coupled with the handshake and the penalty for if you, Is it break your covenant or say, if you, if you

John Dehlin [00:26:33] tell people, if you divulge the, the handshakes. I think.

Carah Burrell [00:26:36] Yeah. What the consequence is going to be. And you have to, like, pantomime your own death or your own gory. Gory death.

John Dehlin [00:26:43] Yeah. And you didn't do this. But I did.

Carah Burrell [00:26:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:45] And yeah. You're promising to give your life to the church, to give all your time to consecrate your money, to obey the law of chastity, the law of obedience, to obey the leaders, and to never speak evil of the Lord's anointed and to never engage in loud laughter. Right. Like those are the types of things you promise.

Carah Burrell [00:27:01] Yeah, And a lot of people will promise. I just wanted to read Josh's comment that men and women sit on separate sides of the room watching a movie. That kind of puts you to sleep. So.

John Dehlin [00:27:10] And women had to veil their face and promise to hearken unto their husbands as their husbands promise to obey God.

Carah Burrell [00:27:17] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:27:17] Okay. We're not doing it justice, but that's kind of.

Carah Burrell [00:27:20] That's the quick run through.

John Dehlin [00:27:21] That's the Mormon Temple experience. The, the. The baptisms for the dead and the endowment. And the only other thing I'll say is the God makers and evangelicals and the Internet made such a big deal about how cultish and violent and disturbing the Mormon Temple experience was that the Mormon Church changed it all in 1990. Got rid of a bunch of the Masonic stuff, the cultish stuff, the violent stuff, and they've basically been changing it ever since to try and make it softer. And again, wait, was it revealed from God? And if so, why did they have to take stuff out, you know?

Carah Burrell [00:27:55] Yeah, right. That there's just so much. Just ingrained sexism. It's just so many holdovers from the way that it started because you're not supposed to be changing it, but with enough little bits of pressure, like Nikki's comment just now about how the wife can't know the husband's name, new name in the temple, but the wife. But the husband knows the wife's name because the husband will call the wife out during the resurrection by their new name. Just so much baked in like patriarchy. And the church will make small changes over time to correct for those things. But the more that we just acknowledge it. This is kind of what this podcast is doing today. I want to talk. And then we're going to get into talking about the way that the church utilizes influencers, Mormon influencers on Instagram to show this really kind of like put together pretty face of the church. And there's. So there's a few different topics that we want to get into. So.

John Dehlin [00:28:51] So, yeah, so. So now skipping forward, because we want to bring Laura on. Skipping forward now the Mesa Temple has been rebuilt, I guess renovated. Renovated. Just like the Salt Lake Temple is being renovated now. There's a massive commercial redevelopment around the Mesa City Temple where businesses are being built, probably luxury condos, other businesses.

Carah Burrell [00:29:14] City Creek something, something.

John Dehlin [00:29:16] They stay on brand City Creek Reserves. And the church is doing a social media campaign today to announce it.

Speaker C [00:29:22] And.

John Dehlin [00:29:22] And they're partnering with a bunch of faithful Mormon social media influencers to help promote it. And you wanted to bring on Laura Schnell to give her opinion about the social media influencer.

Carah Burrell [00:29:34] I reached out on my Instagram and I said, hey, everyone, because so many people are actually messaging me about this. I didn't know anything about it until quite a few people were sending me different Instagram influencers in the Mormon sphere about this. And it leads into a bigger discussion that we're going to have. And one of the people who did reach out to me is my good friend Laura Schnell. And let's bring her on right now. And she had. She has some good takes. Hey, Laura.

John Dehlin [00:30:01] Laura Snell, what a treat to have you on back on Mormon stories.

Speaker C [00:30:05] Hey, I'll do anything for Carah, honestly.

Carah Burrell [00:30:10] That's what I want to hear.

John Dehlin [00:30:11] That's legit.

Speaker C [00:30:12] Seriously. So, okay, when you sent this out on Instagram, I was like, you know, I was like, hey, okay, I have some thoughts. Obviously, take them for what they're worth, whatever. But, okay, a distinction I think is important, and you can add or take away or whatever is there are Mormon influencers and then there are influencers who are Mormon. And I think that's Joseph Smith behind me, by the way, because I live with my parents. But anyway, I think that's important because one is somebody who, you know, first of all, influencers, this is a lot of them, their livelihood. This is how they make money. This is how they feed their families. This is how they. Whatever, right? And they happen to be Mormon, and the church is kind of like a side note and a comma and whatever. But then there are Mormon influencers whose sole job is to make sure that they're just invested in preserving the image as wholesome and happy and productive. And that's where. When I heard, you know, when you told me about the Mesa Mormon Temple and inviting influencers, I'm just like, it's just, how many more facades can you throw on, honestly? And it kind of blows my mind. Like, hey, not only here, Parade Our perfectness and our, you know, perfection I think is the word and our, you know, beauty also because there's so much in looks and talk about being genuine too and being honest and. Anyway, I'm rambling. You can tell me what you thought.

Social Media Influencers and Temple Promotion

Carah Burrell [00:31:44] Yeah, it sounds like you're saying that the church is profiting off of not only just the put together aspect of their temples looks so opulent and beautiful, but then just tying right into that. It's just so on brand for the church to want people whose entire livelihood is, is being put together and just. It feels very fake and not a representation of like the messiness of the gospel.

Speaker C [00:32:11] Not at all. Yeah, absolutely. And also like playing on the fact that you have people who just want profits all the time. Right. We know we not only want like the old man prophet, we also want a cool, hip profit who shops at Albion Fit and who, you know, we also want that and these people become other people's prophets and their idols. And I think the church understands and knows that. I really do. And that's why they invite these people. Because it looks cool and it looks good because of the likes. And I. Yeah, yeah, it's.

Carah Burrell [00:32:46] We're gonna get into that in a second. About just the way that no shade on people who make their living doing whatever. Life is hard. And a lot of, especially in a Mormon sphere, you don't go to school for 12 years to have like a high earning degree. And so a lot of people make their money through, you know, Mormon mommy bloggers doing different, you know, side hustles with their Instagram account. No shade on that whatsoever. But it just feels very weird when there is just this very fake tie in between selling things, put, having your life put together, putting together a very pretty, happy image out there to the world and the church, like you said, knowing that that's the way that you bring more followers, you bring more people in, you get people to come to the open houses, you get people more interested in the church for what seems like a facade.

Speaker C [00:33:36] Yeah. And my sister is actually an influencer, so I have like a spot of compassion. She always tells me, she's like, this is hard. Like you have to look good all the time. And then PR boxes are called PR boxes, which I think the temple should be called a big huge PR box that you get because she gets these boxes and she's like, okay, I have to, you know, like photograph them and I have to make sure that they look nice and I have to put them on Instagram essentially, you know, making sure that she's like, I love this stuff, you know, and usually she does, but I remember one time she was like complaining to her friends. She's like, oh, this one didn't get that many likes. My post didn't get that many likes. And her friends like, well, because you weren't wearing makeup, because you weren't ready, you didn't look good enough. And so the fact that you would send this huge PR box and be like, okay, now make us look good. There you go.

Carah Burrell [00:34:25] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Somebody was at. Josh was asking, what about priest crafts? Do you have any opinions on that? The way that priest crafts tie in with all of this?

Priestcraft and the Book of Mormon

John Dehlin [00:34:36] Lara, can you tell our listeners what the Book of Mormon says about priestcraft, what it is and what they said, what the Book of Mormon says about it? Do you remember?

Speaker C [00:34:43] Oh, I blocked so many things, John.

John Dehlin [00:34:46] So I think priestcraft in the Book of Mormon is basically people making money in association with their religion or with their church.

Carah Burrell [00:34:54] Right, right.

John Dehlin [00:34:55] And so the fact, I think what Josh is getting at is, is if the church is using social media influencers who are all about generating profits based on putting forward an image of being beautiful, of owning nice things, of wearing nice clothes, of wearing the right makeup, and the church is partnering with social media influencers to promote the temple, isn't that priestcraft on the part of the social media influencers making money off their association with the church? And then isn't the church encouraging prescript? Do I get that right?

Carah Burrell [00:35:29] Yeah, I would. Ding, ding, ding. I would say yes.

John Dehlin [00:35:32] So, Josh.

Speaker C [00:35:33] Yeah, which is interesting because I looked at, I was just looking at the, the Instagram page for the, the open house. I think I looked around the counter in the kitchen. Sorry. And. And I saw that it was like, okay, here's what to do with the, you know, bringing people to the open house. Number one, pray to know who to invite. And I was like, really pray to know who you should invite. Why, why is that being put on as like a. But you normal peasants, you should pray to invite your friends. But we will invite the big guys. We'll invite the pretty people, we'll invite the plastics. You know, I was just reading and I was like, this doesn't make sense. Well, it makes sense, but I mean,

John Dehlin [00:36:22] if I'm putting on my church hat, Laura Schnell. I'm thinking that the church, in the church's mind, it's like we're building these gazillion dollar temples. They're super beautiful inside. All the non Mormons want to know what goes on in there. We don't like the rumors that we're a super cult and that weird things go on in there. So these open houses after a temple's been renovated are this amazing experience for Mormons to get their neighbors to invite people from work to come to the temple. See how gorgeous it is, see how rich of a building we can build. And hopefully by taking them through an open house, then they'll feel the warm fuzzies, they'll feel the spirit, they'll be moved upon and maybe want to join the church. And so the church is saying, pray about what neighbors or co workers you can invite to the open house, because maybe we'll bring some of them. Jesus. Is that the idea, Laura?

Speaker C [00:37:20] Yeah, that sounds like a great idea. And actually something else about influencers is that they, they're normal because they're, they're cool, right? They're not wearing prairie dresses and churning butter. They're like the cool Mormons who, you know, who are normal, who shop at Costco. And so you want that look also you. I was actually reading one of them, one of their blogs, and she was like, I'm tired of being like, of the world calling us weird. We're normal. And I'm like, but then you love being peculiar, so you know what I'm saying? So again, like you were saying, John, it's that PR scent, like, hey, look, normal, beautiful people also love to participate in the temple. You should too, or you should be curious about it.

Carah Burrell [00:38:06] And the number one response that I had when I reached out to people on Instagram about what people think about Mormon influencers is that this is, this is not me saying this, but Laura, you can tell me your thoughts on it. I have a lot of DMS of people saying they're hypocrites. They kind of want their cake and eat it too. They want to be performative for the church and cash in on using the sphere of influence that they can in the Mormon realm. But then also, I have no, no shade again, Carah has no shade for these people whatsoever. But some, some argue that then they don't wear their garments when they're trying to sell clothes that aren't garment friendly. And they can also wield their influence to non Mormon crowds and kind of play both sides. Do you have any opinion on that?

Speaker C [00:38:49] Yeah, I call it the Hannah Montana effect, where you want the best of both worlds and you literally get it. You get the. Because you get the, you get the look, you get the cool, you get the Mormon side number one, right? Where if you Run into Rusty, he'll be like, oh, you're. Yeah, you hold up our name. You're Mormon, you're active. And then you get the super non Mormon. Yeah, I can conform to these people. I'm friends with famous actors type of a situation.

Carah Burrell [00:39:19] You know, you can have product lines, sell different things that. Yeah. Best of both worlds.

Speaker C [00:39:26] Yeah. Yeah. You get to swear like a sailor and not be looked down upon and maybe have some cool, like, coffee once in a while. But don't worry, you still wear garments sometimes and you go to the temple because you're going to show up at the Mesa open house. So you're still active.

Carah Burrell [00:39:38] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't. I want to be really clear that, like, I don't want to have, like, any, like, implicit shade for people who live like that, because people who do make Mormonism work for them.

Speaker C [00:39:48] Totally.

Carah Burrell [00:39:49] That is a. That is like a pioneer thing that nuances the edges around Mormonism, and that's cool. But then I also. It really invalidates people's experiences where, like, oh, I'd be shunned by my family if I took off my garments in a photo on Instagram or whatever. It's like, there are still a. A strong push to live a very orthodox version of Mormonism that you will not see on these Instagram influencers pages, which is really a more authentic version of Mormonism. But the more that we can nuance what's acceptable and stop judging people for when they choose to wear their garments or what they choose to do, that's the. That's the. The. The area that I think we all want to direct. That we all want to go in.

Speaker C [00:40:27] Yeah. It would be awesome if influencers. My only thing, and I always say this, and my sister has talked to me about this, is like, can you. Because you're an influencer, everyone's. Could you. Is there an element of coolness and being completely transparent and being like, hey, guys, I know sometimes you see me with a tank top. I'm still believing, but sometimes I just don't wear garments. Like. But no, it's almost the playing on both. And I'm like, you, Carah. I'm like, hey, you do you, baby girl. Like, I respect the hustle. Right. But then it's how the church uses it. And then on that other side of the card, here's a young woman being shamed in girls camp for bringing a tank top.

Carah Burrell [00:41:07] Exactly.

Speaker C [00:41:08] That's just not okay.

John Dehlin [00:41:10] I really like the comment that Niall Checketts makes, and we've talked about this before. Niall writes, I honestly feel bad for Mormon influencers. What happens if they decide they no longer want to associate with the church or believe in it? Like Al Fox, the tattooed Mormon? She could literally never leave. We talked about this with Chelsea and Nick Homer, right? They do these art. They, the church picks them because they're a mixed faith couple. Chelsea's, you know, they probably consider her pretty and a photogenic couple. She's got a nice Instagram presence. So they bring them on to sort of say, hey, the church is cool with mixed faith couples. But what happens when Chelsea loses her faith? Right.

Carah Burrell [00:41:49] They're dropped like a hot potato.

Speaker C [00:41:51] Delete her name from everything associated with the trick that she ever wrote.

John Dehlin [00:41:55] That's kind of embarrassing. But, but also just the pressure. Like, what about that point? Can Al Fox. I ask Al Fox, I ask, ask listeners to email Al Fox. Can Al Fox ever leave Mormonism? And if so, what. What is good? What is that going to be like for Al Fox, the tattooed Mormon?

Speaker C [00:42:09] Yeah, it would be a nightmare because then their identity, their soul. And that's the difference between Mormon influencers and influences who are Mormon. Exactly. Al Fox is a Mormon influencer. Right. She literally has Book of Mormon with her. She should, she has become a brand. She's like, I don't even know that she's, you know, the essence of her identity or whatever. She actually came to one of our seminary things one time and fangirling, let me tell you, not me, but the students, but she couldn't leave. That's sad that she's, she's a brand now. She's literally a sticker on a PR box. And that would be so sad, you know, if she had a faith crisis and couldn't. I mean, she could, but I understand. So I appreciate that comment.

John Dehlin [00:42:54] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:42:54] And I want, if, if, let's take Al Fox, for example. If somebody like her was truly like alf, that's where your faith is and this is where you find your purpose and your meaning and all of that drive. That's cool, but it's so conflated with your finances now when your family's living and people looking up to you that. I don't know if anyone, I don't. I just don't think that it's really even moral to prop up somebody. I, I feel like after I've lost my faith, I can, on the platform I have, I can be as authentic to whatever changing tide I'm in because I don't hold up a corporation. You know, like if, if John, if I became a Christian Tomorrow I wouldn't get fired. You know, like, I could. I can change my beliefs based on new information and stuff, but when people's entire livelihood is tied in with an image, that's where the waters really get muddled. Muddy to me.

John Dehlin [00:43:45] Want to shout out to Isaac Gogna, who just made a super chat donation through YouTube. He writes, My parents volunteered us to help at the Philadelphia Temple open house on one of the days. They had a bunch of, quote, influential people from the city. Yeah. And so the church is doing this, whether it's Steve and Barb Young, whether it's Donnie Marie Osmond. You know, Scientology kind of perfected this. This act of selecting celebrities like John Travolta and Katie Holmes and Nicole Kidman and our own beloved. What's her name? Leah Remini. Right. It's like, let's get all the stars. Let's get them out. And somehow the church is true, because wealthy, well dressed, pretty rich people are willing to chauffeur the church.

Carah Burrell [00:44:35] Yeah. Yeah. And Laura, before we let you go, because Laura was so kind to take a break from her busy schedule to come on the podcast today. So the last question that I wanted to ask you and pick your brain about is there are so many issues that need attention in America, in the world today. And it feels like the building of temples, in my small summation of the problem, is really not super duper important. But that is what the Mormon influencers. That's what the church wants them to go out and talk about. That this is the most important work. God. Building the temples, ordinances, getting done. If you had one message to people who are influencers, who are Mormon or Mormon influencers, what type of messages and ideals and ideas would you hope that they reach the masses with?

Speaker C [00:45:36] Well, obviously, I'm very poor, partial to race. There's just an absolute issue right now for a long time with racism. Why not pay more attention to that? The whiteness and the erasure of people of color in the Mormon Church, particularly the. Just talk about garments on people who come from a completely different cultural background. Right. I've talked a little bit about that before, how garments kind of stripped me away from. Which is ironic. Stripped me away from being in contact with this Latin, you know, the vibrant, how close we are to our bodies, that's one thing. But I wish that, yeah, they would touch on. On that. And then obviously, the lgbtq, I mean, lives are being lost. Talk about lives. Talk about, here we are, you know, we're gonna do ordinances for the dead. What about the living who are suffering. So those are the big two issues. And then for me, I just kind of feel like vomiting thinking about the thousands and thousands. Hundreds of thousands of dollars being poured into temples, being renovated and built, and hundreds.

John Dehlin [00:46:53] How about hundreds of millions of dollars? Right?

Speaker C [00:46:58] Yeah. It's disgusting, honestly. And I'm just like, with all that money and your influencers, I know you have a lot of money. Sometimes these are the sole providers. Right. Of your families is what comes through influencing. Talk about money. And you don't have to disclose your personal finances, but talk about the power of money and how to use it and corporations who use it for good versus for good being building beautiful buildings. What is that? That's not charity.

John Dehlin [00:47:30] Nikki writes. Thank you, Laura. So much money poured into temples, but real humans are suffering. There's a lot of love being shared. For you, Laura Schnell, your Mormon Stories podcast was game changing. Your participation at Thrive for Women was game changing. And you're just super loved and appreciated.

Carah Burrell [00:47:49] Yeah, that's why I call. One of my greatest blessings is Laura Schnell and I are friends.

Speaker C [00:47:58] Hey, we are. But really, though, it's just not. Yeah. One thing I wanted to share was one time, Mark and I were talking about Kobe Bryant. He loves Kobe Bryant. And I said, hey, would you ever wait in line to meet Kobe Bryant? And he was like, no. And I was like, dude, yes, you would. It's Kobe Bryant. Fucking Bryant. Like, you would wait in line to meet him. And he's like, no, I wouldn't. You know why? Because Kobe Bryant wouldn't wait in line to meet me. And I was like, what? Of course he wouldn't. You're a nobody. He's like, exactly. I only want to be around people who want to be around me. And so I just. I want to tell, like, the peasants like me and the normals, you know, and the influencers, like, hey, we're all on the same plane. There is no need to separate each other. And I hate this whole, like, putting people above each other in that superiority complex. Anyway, anyway, thank you for having me on.

John Dehlin [00:48:55] We adore you. Laura. Thanks for coming on Mormon Stories.

Speaker C [00:48:58] Yep.

Carah Burrell [00:48:58] Thanks, babe.

John Dehlin [00:48:59] All right, we'll see you soon. Come back again. Okay.

Speaker C [00:49:02] Okay. Okay.

Carah Burrell [00:49:03] Okay. Thanks, Laura.

John Dehlin [00:49:05] See ya.

Speaker C [00:49:05] Bye.

John Dehlin [00:49:06] All right, Carah. So we've got a great audience, and we're 50 minutes in, and it was so great to have Laura. Thanks for setting that up.

Carah Burrell [00:49:14] Yes, yes, yes. Thanks again, girl.

Speaker C [00:49:16] Woo.

Carah Burrell [00:49:16] That was. We. We wrangled Mark in last week. Like, right as we were about to start, I wrangled Laura in literally six minutes before we were about to start. So thanks, Laura. She literally had to go back to work at 2pm, which it is right now.

John Dehlin [00:49:28] And we want to thank everyone for your flexibility. Like Carah and I are just figuring out what we want these live streams to be, how to organize them, how much to fit in, and how much time we want to get. Lots of comments and inner interaction from you guys. So thanks for your patience. And as we figure this out, we're not done. I just wanted to say thanks that we're loving this and we're, we're figuring it out. So thanks for your patience.

Carah Burrell [00:49:53] Yeah, so I'm glad Laura came on and I just, I wanted to reiterate a couple of the things that she spoke about. And we're going to get into more, a little bit here about what this money could be used for. Is it even congruent with the things that the church teaches sometimes to do with what Jesus taught, what the Book of Mormon says? And yeah, so we're going to get more into talking about how all of these things intertwine with one another.

John Dehlin [00:50:19] Okay, so that's part one. So part one was basically talking about what you do in the temple. And then we, we spent a little bit of time with Lauren, social media influencers, I guess I want to say this as you and I are preparing, Carah, I had this thought, like, who is it for post Mormons to even be commenting on what the Mormon Church does and what its faithful members do in what many would argue is their most sacred ordinance? And that's where you and I came up with this idea of the harm, that potentially there's a hypocrisy going on and there's harm that's going on. And so that's what I think we should turn our attention to now. And we've touched on it a bit over the last 40 minutes, but now we're gonna just dive in directly. So I want to address why we're even. Well, let's jump in to address why we're even talking about this. Okay, so, so what, what? I think just to back up a tiny, tiny bit. So a couple, a decade or two ago, they renovated the Ogden Temple. And my understanding is that's the first time they took a temple renovation and decided to renovate the downtown, significant parts of the downtown, in conjunction with the temple renovation. So it's basically something like buy up all the property around it, plan commercial housing, plan malls, and renovate the temple and have it be a combination spiritual slash, slash Commercial venture. So that's what they did with Ogden and then City Creek Mall in downtown Salt Lake City was the next iteration. And all of our listeners know that this was like a two plus billion dollar commercial venture where it wasn't just, you know, pretty up the area surrounding the temple. It's build high rise luxury condos, it's build an entire commercial shopping mall and lots of real estate speculation and business investment to the tune of a couple billion dollars.

Temple Open Houses and Church PR Strategy

Carah Burrell [00:52:24] What they said would have no tithing money spent, which we know is now not the case.

John Dehlin [00:52:30] Yeah. Promises to all the members. Don't worry, we're not using any tithing money on this stuff.

Carah Burrell [00:52:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:35] And yet we, we know they were right and that's what this new Mesa. So if we go to kind of the announcement, let's just start with do you want to do a quick reaction video to this temple and just kind this, this short little video, Is that too much?

Carah Burrell [00:52:51] Yeah. Do you want to keep the sound kind of down maybe?

John Dehlin [00:52:53] Okay, so we've got this, we've got this, you know, Mesa Arizona Temple day video. And let's just kind of give listeners a sense for what's going on. The temple has been the heart of our downtown for almost 100 years. So here's the temple. It's showing this opulent, million dollar chandeliers, million dollar baptismal falls, major renovation.

Carah Burrell [00:53:20] The Mesa Arizona Temple opens to the public.

John Dehlin [00:53:23] We expect over the next five weeks hundreds of thousands of friends of the church to come through the temple and have the privilege of having this open house. La Casa del Senor.

Carah Burrell [00:53:37] Senior leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints met with the media, including Hispanic. I want you to pause it for a second.

John Dehlin [00:53:44] Okay.

Carah Burrell [00:53:44] Influencer. Does anyone know who that is?

John Dehlin [00:53:48] Who are you talking about?

Carah Burrell [00:53:49] That one and that one.

John Dehlin [00:53:50] Does anyone ask who that is?

Carah Burrell [00:53:52] I recognize, I'm sure by their haircut with a mask on.

John Dehlin [00:53:55] So there's a couple there, a blonde couple and a guy with kind of blondish hair. Tell us who that is.

Carah Burrell [00:54:02] That is Ari. And is it Lauren or Laura? I think it's Lauren. Lauren? Yeah. Ari and Lauren from the Bachelor.

John Dehlin [00:54:09] Okay, so let me pull up what

Carah Burrell [00:54:10] their connection is with Mormonism. I was trying to figure it out. I went on the Bachelor's Reddit page. I have no idea what their connection is with Mormonism. I sent you some of the links if you have it, John. But they. So these are, these are, those are big time influencers. Big time influencers. If you were the Bachelor, Ari. I don't Know why they were there, but they. They posted about it on their. On there.

John Dehlin [00:54:32] So here's the link.

Carah Burrell [00:54:33] And. Okay. There we go.

John Dehlin [00:54:36] Okay. There's a photo of. Tell us who these are again. So there's a TV show.

Carah Burrell [00:54:41] Ari was the Bachelor a couple years ago. Okay. And I think he's made a couple babies with his wifey. There's.

John Dehlin [00:54:47] Okay, so that's. Those are two people for the Bachelor. Did they win? Did one of them win? Was this.

Carah Burrell [00:54:52] It's complicated. I don't want to go into the entire Bachelor. Ari was kind of a D bag and picked a different girl and then undid it and then decided to pick her. And now they're happy and live and have a bunch of babies together.

John Dehlin [00:55:02] So they live in Arizona.

Carah Burrell [00:55:03] Right.

John Dehlin [00:55:04] And the church basically said. And they're not Mormon. Is that what you're saying?

Carah Burrell [00:55:07] I don't think they are. Maybe his wife has some ties to Mormonism. I was trying to get to the bottom of it. I have no idea. All I know is that they have a huge social media following and. Which begs the question, is the church paying people like them to come out? Because brands all the time, they pay tons of money to have, you know, sponsored featured ads and promotions and things on major social media influencers, Instagram stories and pages. Right. So it begs the question to me, how did the Temple open house. Did they get promoted for free out of the goodness of our.

John Dehlin [00:55:38] No, no, no. I'm telling you what had to have happened. The church sat around. The church PR sat around and said, who are some local influential people that we can pay to come to our event as, like star power? Kind of like a red carpet thing?

Carah Burrell [00:55:51] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:55:52] Yeah. And then blog or post about it on social media, and then we'll pay them. And what's interesting about that is, number one, that they pick people from the Bachelor because does the Bachelor represent Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints values in any way?

Carah Burrell [00:56:08] All it. All you need to know is that they are a very wealthy couple who look like they could be Mormon if you're just scrolling through their Instagram. And that is good enough. That's all, I think.

John Dehlin [00:56:17] But is it the Bachelor, like, debauchery of, like, all the participants sleeping with each other and trying to get it. Get it on? Is that true or not? Or.

Carah Burrell [00:56:25] Yeah, the church is just going back to its roots.

John Dehlin [00:56:28] Okay. Yeah. So it's weird that they would pick people from the Bachelor. Right?

Carah Burrell [00:56:32] I think that is weird. And Bachelor. The. The Reddit for the Bachelor was not speaking so kindly about them being propagandists for the church. But that. That's. We'll get into that.

John Dehlin [00:56:42] Okay. So. Yeah, so. So anyway, they're. You're saying they're in this media shot?

Carah Burrell [00:56:47] Yeah, that's them right there.

John Dehlin [00:56:48] That's them right there in the media.

Carah Burrell [00:56:49] Recognize that haircut from a mile away.

John Dehlin [00:56:50] Okay, so they're like, act. They're dressed like Mormons. She's got long. No shoulders. No. No porn shoulders there. Right?

Carah Burrell [00:56:57] It's a really cute dress.

John Dehlin [00:56:59] So she's. She's dressed like a prairie girl with flowers, basically.

Carah Burrell [00:57:02] Don't say she's a prayer girl. She looks gorgeous. They look fabulous. They look.

John Dehlin [00:57:05] But I mean, modest.

Carah Burrell [00:57:06] I'm just saying.

John Dehlin [00:57:06] Temple modest.

Carah Burrell [00:57:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:08] Yes. Mormon temple clothes.

Carah Burrell [00:57:09] They look like they fit the mold. Right on.

John Dehlin [00:57:11] Okay, so they're there acting like they're super interested in what this church is doing.

Carah Burrell [00:57:16] Yeah, I like. Okay, go on.

John Dehlin [00:57:18] So they're acting. Yeah. All right, so let's. Should we roll the video? Should we keep it going?

Carah Burrell [00:57:22] Yeah, keep going.

Speaker C [00:57:22] Okay.

▶ Video Clip 1

Video Clip 1 [00:57:23] And social media influencers in early October to discuss the temple improvements and take them on a tour of the temple. This is the news, right? This is how we influence people today.

Video Clip 1 [00:57:34] Inspiration.

Video Clip 1 [00:57:36] This is how we can do it. I've not heard of you.

Video Clip 1 [00:57:38] Okay, so, yeah, so I went ahead and I just.

Video Clip 1 [00:57:40] Was first dedicated.

John Dehlin [00:57:41] I just went ahead and I. I looked for Jenny's Instagram page. And again, this is not to trash people. We support. You know, we. We have social media. Like, we understand that in 2021, people make money off.

Carah Burrell [00:57:55] I never made money off of my Instagram, and I don't think I ever will.

John Dehlin [00:57:58] You don't?

Carah Burrell [00:57:58] I would never call myself an influencer,

John Dehlin [00:58:00] but, I mean, we have a YouTube channel. We have a YouTube channel, and we did TikTok and we do Instagram, you and I.

Speaker C [00:58:06] Right.

Carah Burrell [00:58:06] What I love about social media influencers and mommy bloggers and stuff is these women are scrappy and they have some honed skills and more power to them. So that's nothing against influencers necessarily.

John Dehlin [00:58:17] So we're. Yeah, we're.

Carah Burrell [00:58:18] We're walking a very fine line, and we. It's a very, like, difficult thing that I don't want to be misinterpreted about. So what we're talking about is the way that they wield their influence for the church and vice versa. Yeah, it's a difficult topic. But you guys follow me.

John Dehlin [00:58:33] Okay? So we are not trashing Jenny Kamenda at all. And I just want to say that I pulled up her Instagram page. It looks like you know somebody in the comments, Elise says, quote, she's an interior designer and she's a good one. Super sweet. So here is Ginny Komenda's Instagram page. She's a founder and creative director, all things art, design, home and business. And basically what you see on her Instagram page, and she's got 255,000 followers. So I'm guessing the church paid her I'm guessing the church paid her to come out and to attend this event, to be on video and then to blog about the Mesa temple opening on her Instagram.

Carah Burrell [00:59:18] Your Instagram stories and just create more hype around the, the new temple opening to get more people to come out and tour. It kind of like a free advertisement to like that the church. The church can only run so many ads on YouTube or Facebook or whatever. But if you can get a put together pretty woman who has a huge social media influence to go out and talk about the temple, why it's important to them, yeah, people are going to start paying attention and think, huh, maybe we should go out and tour that old Mormon temple.

John Dehlin [00:59:48] Yeah. And so I thought, okay, so, so fine, the church is going to use social media influencers to promote the temple opening. What types of influencers are they gonna use? Are they gonna use people that are like social media influencers for racism, social media influencers for poverty, social media influencers for education, for women's rights, social media influencers for things that Jesus stood for, things that the Book of Mormon teaches about are those, you know, again, for female literacy, like water to indigenous or African countries. Like, there are all sorts of types of media influencers that the church pick to promote its temple opening. What type did they pick here? And this is just one, but they picked a woman who is like all about making your house pretty, right? Buying super expensive furniture, wearing super nice clothes and being super pretty, wearing pretty dresses, having pretty makeup, having your hair curled. And again, I'm not trashing beauty. I'm not trashing people who wear makeup or people who wear nice clothes. That's not where I'm going with this. I'm just saying that on the one hand, it's worth asking, what did Jesus teach about prosperity, about wealth, about material possessions, about fine apparel? What did Jesus teach about that? What did Jesus teach about rich people? What did Jesus teach about costly apparel? And then, and then what does the Book of Mormon teach about those things? And then who is the church choosing as its social media spokespeople now?

Carah Burrell [01:01:37] What do you think the people that you mentioned, that there are plenty of people who use their platform to speak out about different injustices that are happening in the world, but those are what I call agitators. Those are people who don't just sit down and shut up up that they. If people are speaking out about the treatment of, let's say, like, LGBTQ people, the church never in a million years is going to invite somebody to the temple where somebody's main use of their platform is to speak out about the way that that church harms people in the community that they care so much about. So, again, no shade to people who make a living through social media advertising. I think the point that John just trying to make here, that I agree with, is that there are. So there's such a need for. For. For people in poverty and people who are suffering from so many different injustices in America and around the world who speak out about it. And it just seems like the church wants to keep things as superficial as maybe the word. John, would you agree with that word? They want to keep things as superficial as possible. To not drill down that there's actual issues that people really care about in and out of the church that the church needs to make change on.

John Dehlin [01:02:47] Yeah, yeah. So what I did is I went and I looked at what Jesus said about wealth and poverty and then what the Book of Mormon says. And is it okay, Carah, if I just read a little bit from that? Okay, so, so, and, and by the way, it's really interesting because we're talking about the temple. So the first thing I looked up was what Jesus did when there were money changers at the temple. Okay, so. So Jesus is visiting the temple. He's now in his adulthood. He's visiting the temple. What is the one time Carabarell that Jesus got super pissed and actually committed, showed anger and committed almost kind of violent acts. Do you remember your New Testament?

Jesus, Money Changers, and Temple Commerce

Carah Burrell [01:03:29] And when that was, that was him telling all the money changers to get the blank out, basically.

John Dehlin [01:03:36] Yeah. So selling stuff in conjunction with the temple. So, so as an example, Matthew 21 talks about, quote, and Jesus went into the temple of God and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple and overthrew the tables of the money changers and the seats of them that sold doves and said unto them, it is written, my house shall be called the house of prayer, but ye have made it a den of thieves. So that's in Matthew 21. And then if we go to John 2, it reads, and the Jews Passover was at hand. And Jesus went up to Jerusalem and found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves and the changers of money sitting. And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple and the sheep and the oxen and poured out the changers money and overthrew the tables and said unto them that sold doves, take these things Hence. Make not my father's house and house of what, Carah? What's the word?

Carah Burrell [01:04:50] The Lord? Nope. Merchandise.

John Dehlin [01:04:53] Make not my father's house and house of.

Carah Burrell [01:04:56] Of. Merchandise.

John Dehlin [01:04:57] Merchandise. And so again, no shade on these influencers. But I just think it's ironic that Jesus is getting mad about merchandise and its association with the temple. But if we switch back to, you know, this particular influencer's, you know, Instagram page, Jenny Kamenda, what is it all about?

Carah Burrell [01:05:20] It's. It's about merchandise, product placement and merchandise.

John Dehlin [01:05:23] Product placement and merchandise.

Carah Burrell [01:05:26] You know, putting things up. What's that scripture? Lay up for yourself treasures not on earth where moth and dust doth corrupt.

John Dehlin [01:05:35] Right.

Carah Burrell [01:05:35] But. And thieves break through and steal. But lay up for yourself treasures which are in heaven where moth and dust doth not corrupt.

John Dehlin [01:05:42] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:05:42] Thieves break not through and steal.

John Dehlin [01:05:44] Yeah. Is it weird that announcing a temple, they're not picking social media influencers about poverty, injustice, homelessness, illiteracy, racism, sexism, homophobia. They're picking people that are about selling makeup and hair and clothes and furniture. Is that ironic?

Carah Burrell [01:06:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:04] Is it weird?

Carah Burrell [01:06:05] I just highlighted a comment earlier that we can put this into. The next jumping off point is that somebody wrote that I highlighted on screen that Mormonism, Mormons worship capitalism. Groundbreaking. That there's so much with modern American Christianity is just intertwined with a prosperity gospel that the better you're doing, the more that you're showing off the wealth that you've accumulated, the more that you've been blessed. That just equates to righteousness. And people are going to take interest in why your house looks so good, why you look so put together. It's because you've been blessed, because you're part of the one true church, because Christ is smiling down upon you. How can I get with that? You know? So everything just seems completely intertwined into a prosperity gospel, which then takes us

John Dehlin [01:06:50] to Jesus's comments on rich people. So I'm just going to read a couple comments on that. So we go to. Again, this is in the New Testament. In this case, I'm reading from Matthew and it says. And again, I say unto you, it is Easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. Now, that's Matthew 19:24. Then he goes on, and this, I think, is really relevant. And we're going to bring in a Mormon apostle here in just a second. In Luke chapter 18, it reads, and a certain ruler asked Jesus, saying, good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, why call us thou me good. None is good save one, that is God. Thou knowest the commandments. Do not commit adultery. Do not kill, do not steal, do not bear false witness, honor thy father and mother. And then the guy says, all these things I've kept from my youth up. So Jesus then responds, when Jesus heard these things, he said unto them, yet lackest thou one thing, Sell all that thou hast and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven and come and follow me. So Jesus basically says, sell everything that you have. Come and follow Jesus as the pinnacle of a follower of Christ. Is that right?

Carah Burrell [01:08:12] And if you raise your hand in church, like I did once, and bring any of this up, you will not be looked upon very kindly. And the church will be quick to tell you why we need to reinterpret that verse, because that is kind of not what they actually want to be teaching. And I just wanted to read Joss's comment. All the materialism. No wonder Utah has a high number of plastic surgeries performed. I think it's second only to Los Angeles outside of. Outside of la. Pressure to look good. As primates, we acute equate beauty with virtue.

John Dehlin [01:08:48] And I have dear friends that have. That have done the plastic surgery thing. This. The point here isn't to call that out necessarily at all, but it is to say, you know what. What are we worshiping? Within Mormonism and within the church, it's.

Carah Burrell [01:09:02] Yeah, it's about holding up the highest values. Like, do I want to get a nose job every day? Yes, I do. Okay. Is it because I want to conform? No, because I've wanted it. And because I'm just, like, sick of looking at something and there's. You have to tease out your reasons for why you want to do something. And so much of. Of Mormon culture, like, to be perfectly honest with you, is like having a baby looking as hot as possible while you're still in, like, the hardest phase of your life, where you're raising little toddlers and kids. Well, you still look put together, and you still can show up on Sunday and all your kids have matching outfits. And it's so performative and it's so exhausting. And so those are some of the first, like red flags. The first things before I had any of my faith crisis was to realize like, nobody, like people still prop up these influencers who are doing these things. I had them in my ward and I was like, this isn't real. This doesn't feel authentic. I don't feel the spirit when I'm at church, when I'm trying to like, live up to this like fake standard of always having the cutest dresses and my hair done and my kids. There's just such a performative nature to church. And I never felt like a culture that doesn't come, that a church that doesn't call out this culture is possibly of Christ. Like, I could not remedy those two things in my mind. That was one of my first red flags. Like one of my first big, like, no matter what the other truth claims of the church where I was like, why isn't this culture being called out more? This performative culture?

John Dehlin [01:10:18] Yeah, yeah. I don't. We're not criticizing people that choose plastic surgery. We're calling out the Mormon culture of, of extreme beauty standards. Un. Unrealistic beauty standards that, that put way more emphasis on beauty and clothes and hair and makeup and homes and furniture than they do on feeding the naked, on clothing, the naked, feeding the poor, helping out the homeless, fighting discrimination. I think, I think, I think what we're saying, Carah, is that the church's choice to team with social, with, with, with appearance based social media influencers is, is in a way showing that the church prioritizes.

Carah Burrell [01:11:03] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:11:04] Beauty standards and materialism and consumerism over what Christ really stood for, which is fighting for the poor and the marginalized and the discriminated against. Am I right?

Carah Burrell [01:11:17] Exactly. And, and just to like circle back to the point I was making before, that is like, that's the Christ that I wanted to worship, that I wanted other people within the church to care about. And then you go and you look at what the church actually cares about and it's inviting these types of social media influencers. And it just felt like this disconnect between the type of God that I wanted to worship within Mormonism and the type that the church leaders want to propagate.

Church Wealth, Corporate Ties, and Rich People

John Dehlin [01:11:38] Yeah, yeah. Really quickly there's a, there's a story in the news that I. That has really been shaking things up. So one of the members of the Quorum of the twelve Apostles. So again, in Mormonism, Carah, tell me if I'm wrong. The, the, the 12 apostles are like the literal 12 apostles that follow Jesus around. They're supposed to be special witnesses of Christ. They're supposed to live up to the highest ideals or standards that Jesus sort of represented. And there's this article that came out just in the past couple days that says breaking news, Elder Stevenson, Gary E. Stevenson, who used to own a company called Icon Health and Fitness or he was a founding partner in it, but they're having a public offering now. The company, it went from being called Icon Fitness, now they're called IFIT Health and Fitness. They're about to go public in the stock market. And basically that's gonna make Gary Stevenson one of the Mormon apostles, a billionaire. Like he's gonna be close to a billionaire. Because of the 43.4 million shares that he owns in this company over the years, his stock holdings will immediately be worth $911.9 million. And the, and the purpose of this article is to basically say that the church is going to go. It's. The church used to have apostles sitting on corporate boards. They got in trouble because of all the graft and corruption. So they made a rule that said no more Mormon apostles sitting on corporate boards. So they got all the apostles sitting and first presidency members off of corporate boards. But they decided to announce that they're going to make an exception to their rule. Gary Stevenson is going to get to remain on the board of the company that he helped found. He's going to become a billionaire while a follower of Jesus Christ. And it just kind of begs the question, if Gary Stevenson is a special witness of Christ and a special follower of Christ, why is he keeping his billion dollars in his shares in a billion dollar corporation? Why isn't he following Jesus own admonition to sell all he has, to forego the world and to give all that money to serve the poor. Am I making.

Carah Burrell [01:14:03] That's fair.

John Dehlin [01:14:04] Is that even fair to ask?

Carah Burrell [01:14:05] Question.

John Dehlin [01:14:05] Is it fair to ask?

Carah Burrell [01:14:06] That's a completely fair question to ask. Because I, when I was Mormon I wanted to believe that, you know, Christ is the head of the church. Just in the old times, the way that it was organized then. And I thought of the twelve apostles as the same type of like ragtag group of, of apostles that you know, scorned by men and you know that they were barely literate or illiterate and tax collectors and you know, God, God went off and he, he sought people to follow him, to be his disciples that were the despise of society. Because Christ you know, he turned. That's how I think of the apostles. Like. But it's completely different in a church that is technically a corporation now that the no shade and people making a lot of money. But when you call yourself an apostle special witness of Jesus Christ, it feels like there's a huge conflict. A huge, huge conflict. Like John said.

John Dehlin [01:15:01] Yeah. If you're a special witness of Christ, why are you a billionaire? Why aren't you giving all your money to the poor? And why is the church make. If the church is going to make any exceptions? Why is it making exceptions for billionaires to remain on corporate boards for their special witnesses of Christ?

Carah Burrell [01:15:21] Okay, sorry, you're gonna read that.

John Dehlin [01:15:22] No, there's one, there's one viewer that writes Icon. And this is, you know of the former name of the company that's now iFit. And this is just one person's experience. He writes Icon is a horrible, terrible company to work for. I used to hire for them at the staffing agency I worked for. They hired entry level positions at $9 an hour. In 2019, he's becoming a billionaire on the backs of employees he can't pay a living wage to. And that's really interesting because so many companies go to Cache Valley.

Carah Burrell [01:15:52] Color me surprised.

John Dehlin [01:15:53] Intentionally, because in Cash Valley they pay people minimum wage. They pay them super low. And Icon, they actually manufacture fitness equipment in Cache Valley. And you know, I'm sure there have been people that have worked for these companies that have had good experiences. But I do think it, in some ways it's kind of low wage labor. And he's become a billionaire off of not even paying people. Giving people health insurance or affordable health care or a livable wage.

Carah Burrell [01:16:23] Yeah. That if you are trading in let's say 40 hours a week and you still can't afford health care. You can't actually afford the things that need to sustain you as a human being. While the top leaders of the company are not only apostles and using their platform and power as a special disciple of Jesus Christ for the LDS Church while also raking in cash hand over fist, billions of dollars.

John Dehlin [01:16:52] It just, it makes you wonder what, what the church means when they call themselves special witnesses of Christ. What are the. What about Christ?

Carah Burrell [01:16:58] Are they witnessing that? I mean, I'm just thinking of. There are, there are cherry picked like lanes that people like Joel Osteen that people that they. There's a certain lane of Christianity and Mormonism that if you, you can create the type of God you want to create in your head and worship that God who cares about the things that you care about? And if you start with the idea that, like, opulence is good, having fine apparel is good, you can find a way to shoehorn in certain scriptures to meet that criteria of what the God you worship believes in. And unfortunately, like you're talking about with this particular Elder Stevenson here, right. You will find a way to say, well, God would not keep somebody in a position of power unless that's the way that he wants things. So this must be correct. And so you're going to find motivated reasoning, in my opinion, to, like, keep up your appearances and the things that, you know, it's comfortable, it's fine, it's fun to. It's fun to live in, like, opulent, like, extravagant homes and have the finest clothes and stuff. It just depends on how much people are going to take you seriously that you are actually believer in the things that you say that you believe.

John Dehlin [01:18:12] Yeah, we're getting some great comments coming in. So Corinne writes, underpaying employees and inflating CEO pay, truly an American religion. So that's coming at the standpoint of, you know, we need to pay, you know, workers more. But there's also, there's also some criticism. So Sean writes, he could have outsourced it all. You know, basically, he could have sent the jobs to Mexico or China. Not a fan of the guy, but give some credit for the jobs he created. And that's a fair point. Like, entrepreneurs, owners of businesses do create jobs. And so, you know, I've had these talks with my kids because I grew up in this environment of like, capitalism is amazing, free markets are amazing, you know, pro business. My kids, on the other hand, detest. They pretty much detest capitalism. For them, capitalism is like their F word equivalent.

Carah Burrell [01:19:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:19:09] Jeffrey Bezos is their, you know, Satan.

Carah Burrell [01:19:12] Great Satan.

John Dehlin [01:19:13] Yeah, basically. And they basically say capitalism is evil. Can it be that it's not capitalism is everything, or that capitalism is evil, but we find some middle ground where executives make reasonable pay for their investment, Right? They get reasonable benefits and reasonable compensation for the risks that they engage in, but that. That's somehow reasonable and that workers get a livable wage, health insurance, that everybody can get some basic health care, and that there's somehow the benefits of capitalism are spread out even more to a society so that the homeless, so that the, the poor, the starving, the sick can get their basic needs met. I mean, I think Jesus would be in favor of some type of blend. What do you think?

Carah Burrell [01:20:05] Yeah, you're gonna get me into my real ranty phase. If I actually dive into what I really wanna say. But I agree with that to a certain extent. The things that I would just add to that is that, of course, yes, America first. Woo, woo, woo. Don't outsource the jobs. Awesome. It's. The bigger discussion is exploitation of people's labor and not being fairly compensated. And so it's really, it's, it's a part of a larger conversation about workers rights and how billionaires become billionaires. And I'm more interested in making sure that the working class is not so out of. That. The, the, the, the corporate class is not so out of touch with the working class. I'll say. And that. And simply put, people who, like this special witness of Jesus Christ here that we have so much regulation with how they profit off of the working class that it is damn near illegal to get to that point because everything is just a red flag for exploitation. And I care about the people who are making these people rich. And if they become a billionaire because they were like super duper scrappy and didn't exploit a single person a day in their life, that's something I'd love to see. Otherwise, I'm gonna go with the interpretation that $9 an hour, not a living wage, not something that I respect, put it that way.

John Dehlin [01:21:41] Yeah. And I guess our point today isn't to talk about capitalism, incorporation, always my point. But I mean, I. Okay, so I'm just gonna read what, what about wealthy people? Because we did want to just ask the question to Gary Stevenson and to the Mormon Church. You know, how do you respond to this? What Jesus wrote. So Jesus wrote, and this is in the Bible in. So this is in Matthew 19. And again I say unto you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven. And so I'm just asking, and then if you go on to the Book of Mormon, what does the Book of Mormon say about wealth? This is fourth Nephi, chapter one, verse 23. And now I, Mormon, would that ye should know that the people had multiplied insomuch that they were spread upon all the face of the land, and that they had become exceedingly rich because of their prosperity in Christ. And now in this 201st year, there began to be among them those who were lifted up in pride, such as the wearing of the costly apparel and all manner of fine pearls and of the fine things of the world. So it's basically denouncing fancy clothes and jewelry in the Book of Mormon. Right? And from that time forth they did have their goods and their substance no more common among them. So it's basically saying no more sharing and redistribution of wealth. And they began to be divided into classes like rich people that can go to rich malls and poor people. And they began to build up churches unto themselves to get gain like $150 billion in Ensign Peak investments and apostles sitting on corporate boards. Right?

Carah Burrell [01:23:40] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:23:42] And it came to pass that when 210 years had passed away, there were many churches in the land, many churches which professed to know the Christ. And yet they did deny the more parts of the gospel insomuch that they did receive all manner of wickedness and did administer that which was sacred unto him to whom it had been forbidden because of unworthiness. And this church did multiply exceedingly because of the iniquity and because of the power of Satan who did get uphold of their heart. So my question to you Carah, is, is the current corporate commercial Mormon Church not just a mockery and the prosperity gospel and commercial mall and residential housing sort of like investments of the Mormon Church? Is the modern Mormon Church a mockery not just of Jesus Christ, but of the teachings of the Book of Mormon?

Spending on Temples vs. Global Needs

Carah Burrell [01:24:42] I would say hundred percent. And there's something that we've been touching on. I'm just gonna like say my truest thoughts. People don't get mad at me. I'm sorry, but the church is so intertwined with like the upholding of corporate greedy lobbyist. Like, like just the corporate wealthy upper class. It's, the church is so intertwined with these things because of the reasons that we mentioned earlier that you, you look like you are more righteous and virtuous the more money that you have. So the church benefits from keeping the middle class separate from the upper class for the middle class to have something to aspire to. So they, the church has no interest in breaking down any of these things. The church has no interest in actually speaking out about the things the church talked about because they, the, the, the that Jesus talked about because they benefit from class separation. They benefit from it to the highest degree. And I'm going to call it out for what it is. And this is something that I'm more passionate about than Mormonism, but breaking down the reasons that, that people are held back from getting health care, from getting the financial support that they need. It's really nefarious and the church supports it. That's, that's the nicest way that I'll put it. Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [01:26:11] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:26:11] So it's it's deeply rooted in, like, Mormon, ultra capitalist, conservative values. I'm sorry.

John Dehlin [01:26:21] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:26:21] It's the nicest way I can put it. I swear to gosh, I held back.

John Dehlin [01:26:25] Yeah. No, No f bombs were dropped.

Carah Burrell [01:26:28] I'm so.

John Dehlin [01:26:28] No tables were flipped and no F bomb bombs are dropped.

Carah Burrell [01:26:31] I hope you're getting a clue into, like, if Carah could really go off what she would go off about. But it's. It. It just. We talk about things to do with, like, you know, Laura's talking about what the. With the really important things that are happening in our society to do with racism and LGBTQ issues. And it takes agitators, and I just want to add my voice to be an agitator. And the class structure is upheld by the Mormon Church because there's so much that they could do and they don't. And they know exactly what they could do. And I want to call it out, any opportunity that I get that there needs to be agitation to reform these types of systems that keep people from living the best life that they could.

John Dehlin [01:27:11] Now, can I do a rant?

Carah Burrell [01:27:12] Go for it.

John Dehlin [01:27:12] Okay, here's my rant. What are the biggest problems facing the world right now? Poverty, unclean water, basic sanitation, literacy, the education of women. Right. Structural poverty and disparity of wealth.

Carah Burrell [01:27:32] Right.

John Dehlin [01:27:33] The destruction of the environment, racism, tribalism, war, famine. Right.

Carah Burrell [01:27:39] Military industrial complex, prison industrial complex.

John Dehlin [01:27:44] The. The, you know, misogyny, the. The suppression of women, violence against women, racism, tribalism, and LGBT oppression. Like, these are the scale. These are the problems, like disease, like, you know, mosquito nets for people that are getting malaria or, you know, other types of diseases. Like, these are the problems in the world, you know, natural disaster, famine. These are the types of things that are the big problems that I'm sure Jesus would say, this is what we need to care about. Okay, so the one true church on the face of the earth, the church that calls itself the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Saints, the church that claims to be Christ's church upon the earth. What do they do with their money? With their money, they invest in stocks, bonds, real estate, commercial investment opportunities, building high rise luxuries and commercial shopping malls. That's where they invest their money. And in 1010s to hundreds of millions of dollar temples with chandeliers and super expensive Persian rugs and fancy paintings, building temple after temple after temple after temple, spending hundreds of millions of dollars on that and investing hundreds of billions of dollars in the stock market. It. And then that's how the money spent. Not on poverty, not on water, not on literacy for women, not on, you know, famine and disease.

Carah Burrell [01:29:22] Let me just add to that. It's on temples, on anything that builds a sustainable world for the rest of us. It's all things that need to be renovated. So remember, we're saying, like, you know, lay up your treasures in heaven. The world is investing in buildings that deteriorate over time that need to have reinvestments in them chandeliers.

John Dehlin [01:29:39] There's no infrastructure change causes.

Carah Burrell [01:29:42] That's the point that I just want to.

John Dehlin [01:29:43] Granite. Right.

Carah Burrell [01:29:44] So there's no improvement to the systemic inequality and changing the infrastructure that they could have major sway in. That's how I want to put it.

John Dehlin [01:29:52] So hundreds of billions of dollars on fancy buildings and stocks and bonds and real estate. And then in terms of time, when the church says, okay, members, you've got some spare time to make a difference in the world, what difference are we going to ask you to make? Are we going to ask you to go volunteer to teach, you know, literacy, to get water to African nations? No. The Mormon Church asks its millions of members to go to temples and get baptized over and over and over and over and over and over again for Jose and Maria who died 300 years ago, or to get sealed over and over and over again to kneel across an altar and get sailed. Jose and Maria are going to get sealed in a Mormon temple and for Xing in China and for billions of people that have lived. We're going to spend our time as Mormons getting baptized, getting married, and doing endowment ceremonies for dead people. Spend collectively hundreds of thousands and millions of our volunteer time as Mormons getting baptized, doing endowment ceremonies and getting sealed across an altar in these rich, opulent, luxurious temples for dead people while current people are starving, going hungry. You know, the world is kind of burning down. There's racism, sexism, homophobia, poverty. Those people have got to figure it out for themselves because Jesus needs us. Building luxury temples and then doing temple work for dead people endlessly, forever and ever.

Carah Burrell [01:31:31] Mic drop. Right on. Yeah, and I remember. That's exactly it. And I remember Jesse Funk, when she was on, I think she was outside, like, the Ghana temple, talking about how it just felt so wrong to her that these manicured lawns and this kind of like country club atmosphere at the temple while there are children, like, literally sleeping outside on, like, the dirt ground, eating dirt while you have to step over them to show your card to get into the temple. I know because I was a Mormon who considered myself, like a follower of Jesus Christ. I really did. And I knew deep down that this is not where God wanted me to be, but it's where my church and where my culture and where everyone told me I should be. And you have to sit with that cognitive dissonance and it becomes so heavy and weighty over time that you know this cannot possibly be correct. And then you can start putting pieces of the puzzle together, like reading the scriptures that John was putting together. You're like, I just doesn't feel right. This really just doesn't feel right. And I know that there are enough Mormons who, who feel that same, that same inkling that there needs to be something different about the way the church does. But then you listen to conference and all they do is announce another 20 temples and it just doesn't feel right. If they announced another 20 soup kitchens, maybe I'd reconvert.

John Dehlin [01:32:43] Yeah, yeah, like, it's like what Jesus wants is men to get their hair finally combed by expensive suits, women to get their hair dolled up just right. Super nice clothes, going to the temple, dressing in white clothes and performing ordinances for dead people. That's what Jesus cares about most. And I just think that's why I, that's why I named this episode. Are Modern Mormon Temples a mockery? Are they a mockery to Jesus Christ, to Christianity and to the Book of Mormon and to modern day one? You know, Christianity and Mormonism?

Is the Modern Church a Parody of Christ's Teachings?

Carah Burrell [01:33:20] Yeah, you know my answer. But I think every Mormon, it's my. One of my strongly strong, strongest held beliefs is that I think every Mormon, since they likely didn't have informed consent when they converted to the church, every Mormon needs to go through some type of face to face with certain facts about the church, truth claims of the church, how the church spends its money, and then deconstruct and maybe reconstruct what type of membership that they want to have in the church. And so the thing that I just want to push people who are, whether still in the church or have family members in the church is just to add to an atmosphere around Mormonism that the discussion is that truth claims be damned, put that to the side for a second. The church has so much money and can do so much good and the members are so willing to, to just jump and do whatever the church says. We know that the church only changes from outside in, bottom up. That's how dogmatic structures like the church changes. And we know when we look at other systems, when we look at like Catholicism stops, you know, beheading people for like heresy. When enough people start speaking out about it that systems that are so entrenched in their own dogma, what more can we just, just do besides just calling this out and adding to an atmosphere that this is just not something that Mormons are going to put up with anymore, that every conference we're announcing another 20 temples that cost, I don't know, a hundred million, billion, a gazillion dollars, Right? Like, how much is too much? When are Mormons going to speak up and say, no, this is enough is enough. I'm not going to participate in the system anymore where there are children eating dirt outside of these temples that you're building in Africa. I'm not going to pay my tithing into this church anymore. I'm letting my bishop know and my stake president. No, I do not, not want a single cent of my money going for something that doesn't feel right, like what Christ would want money being spent on.

John Dehlin [01:35:13] That is a brilliant point. Like, because, Because I asked you, Carol, why are we talking about Mormon temples? It's none of our business. We don't believe anymore. We don't think they're true. But then we tried to put together a list of the harms that are caused by the church's teachings about Mormon temples. And I'll just reiterate what you just said. Think of all the billions of dollars that the church rakes in every year to, in effect, pay for temples and to get Mormons to spend a lot of time in temples. What if that money that people are giving to the Mormon Church that it no longer needs, what if that money was redirected to worthy charities to fix, you know, cleft pallets, of, of poor kids, to get water to people that don't have water, to, to prevent disease, to prevent war, to prevent famine. You know, the fact that the church is siphoning valuable resources away from credible charities and nonprofits to buy more chandeliers and rugs and to give more basically expensive construction contracts to family members of Mormon general authorities? Is, is, is. It's outrageous.

Carah Burrell [01:36:27] Are they really in bed with each other?

John Dehlin [01:36:28] Like, who else are Mormon apostles going to be giving the contracts to? Are they going to be giving it to apostates? Or, you know, how many, how many apostates of the Mormon Church are building the Mormon temples? I mean, are they going to give it. Clearly, there's a reason why a Zwick, you know, was in the Presiding bishopric, right? Like, there's a reason why, you know, so many people remain Mormon. Basically, it's because so many businesses and business contracts are tied to the People who lead the church because the church is going to is smart enough to keep its own money within the closed system. And I think that keeps a lot of people in the church are these really lucrative construction contracts that are clearly going to be awarded as sweetheart deals to family members and friends of current church leaders.

Carah Burrell [01:37:17] I'm going to go ahead and give you another hotel, not caretake right now. I'm of the opinion that any kind of like quid pro quo BS like that that happens in government with church contracts needs to be out there open. Have whistleblowers paraded like they're Santa Claus at the Thanksgiving Macy's Day parade. Because corruption that goes on under our noses is the number one systemic problem that impedes needs progress of any kind. Is that kind of bs. And if you're upset about it happening at a corporate level, like small government, like I don't want all this corporate greed. I think left, right, everyone can agree that corruption is of the devil. And you should be really suspicious of when your church does it just the same that, that the American government does it to probably the same types of levels. You're gonna get a hot take from me. I think that that should be jailed the same as like murderers and rapists like it should be. You should basically get to the go to the guillotine opinion on that one.

John Dehlin [01:38:18] Yeah, yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:38:19] It just impedes every single bit of progress that you would hope for because all of the, all of this is happening with backdoor quid pro code deals and all of us, you know, just middle income, like wage labor, everybody else just has to like beg for the crumbs that fall off of the table, fall off the plate from people making these backdoor deals. And it just, just. I think Mormons should, should ask for more transparency in the church finances. And it's the first place you start at home. You start at home. Before you go to bigger circles, Mormons should be really upset. That's what I would say.

John Dehlin [01:38:56] Yeah, yeah. When we, when critics of the church talk about financial transparency, they usually talk about like, well, what are the apostles in the quorum of the 70? What do they make in terms of a salary? But, but if you look at overall salary compensation of the church's annual budget, I think the church's annual budget is probably 6 to 7 billion dollars.

Speaker C [01:39:18] Really?

John Dehlin [01:39:18] And what I can tell you is if you add up all the salaries of all the general authorities and even all the church employees, all the CES employees, it's not reaching a billion. So where does the other five, six billion dollars go. It's going to be construction projects, it's going to be building buildings and who gets those contracts? And so when we talk about financial transparency, what if the church were to open up and let everybody know where the other five to six billion dollars a year is going? It's clearly going to be going to. Lining the pockets of family members and friends of the leaders that make those decisions, I think.

Carah Burrell [01:40:02] Can you speak with like, like, do you, do you have like John Delenn, you have access to so many people who know so much information. Are you, can you speak with that? Like with authority that you know that definitively too? Like.

John Dehlin [01:40:11] No, no, because the church isn't. The church isn't transparent on its finances.

Carah Burrell [01:40:15] Making our best estimated guess.

John Dehlin [01:40:17] The point I'm making is Mormons should stop paying tithing because it's a waste of money and they should start demanding financial transparency because it's not just about what the apostles and general authorities make. It's about the sweetheart contract deals that are awarded to friends and family of the, the church leaders. That's the real scandal.

Carah Burrell [01:40:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:40:39] And because where's the $6 billion going?

Carah Burrell [01:40:41] All the church, all the church members are seeing when they're watching conference, like my boomer parents, all they're saying, that's not offensive to boomers. I'm sorry, somebody made. Said, Carah, stop calling boomers in a derogatory mean. I'm just saying, like descriptively, people of a certain age, I swear, boomers who watch this. I love you. I love you so much. The point is that there's just certain people who are just comforted and all they see is surprising surface level things that the church is building more temples. The church, the church must be growing. The gospel is growing across everywhere. But there's all this underlying cd business dealings and things that John's trying to bring up, but the members, that's not what they're paying attention to. It's like, oh, we got another temple in Rexburg. Booyah. The church is just exploding. We cannot contain all of the members in Rexburg to one temple. Hurrah for the gospel. And yeah. Do you have anything else you want to say? Well, I had one. I have Carah's final thoughts.

John Dehlin [01:41:29] Okay. No, I'll just say one thing. One. One of our listeners asked us to address a really important thing. I don't know if you know about this. They. For, for decades and decades and decades, the church did not keep close track of who of, of the, of the work that was being done for people. So in Other words, if there's a man named Jose Guadalupe.

Carah Burrell [01:41:49] Oh, that repeats.

John Dehlin [01:41:50] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Someone could get do the temple work for Jose Guadalupe in Mexico, but also in Texas and also in Utah. And the net effect is that at some point it was discovered that many people's temple work had been done like eight to ten times over.

Carah Burrell [01:42:10] Like Anne Frank and like, oh, even Adolf Hitler.

John Dehlin [01:42:13] It was discovered that Adolf Hitler had been sealed to Eva Braun in Mormon temples like eight or nine different times. And Adolf Hitler.

Carah Burrell [01:42:22] Pause for a second and make fun of that. Can I riff?

John Dehlin [01:42:24] It's true.

Carah Burrell [01:42:25] I know, but like, I know that in the best face interpretation is that is like, oh, Hitler really needs this. He's a pretty evil dude. But then also I just think of somebody who's like really jazzed. There's probably at least like 10 people out there who were like so excited that Hitler's gonna be in heaven with them. Like, they're like, I gotta get Hitler in heaven with me. Well, in Mormon theology, suit to get to go to the temple, to go do that.

John Dehlin [01:42:46] In Mormon theology, we're not going to heaven, but Hitler is. Because he can get his baptism and can be forgiven.

Carah Burrell [01:42:52] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:42:53] So yeah, yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:42:55] Maybe for a best faith interpretation of how I would have viewed it when I was Mormon, God would have a real serious finger wagging and talking to about with Hitler before he gave him his planet though.

John Dehlin [01:43:04] Exactly. Yeah, but, but I guess the other point we're making is how silly it is that temple work is being done at all for dead people. Well, how incredibly additional silly is it that that for over a century people were getting baptized not just once, but 5, 10, 15 times and that this, you know, probably 80% of the temple work done, 80% of the hours spent doing temple work was completely wasted because the names weren't kept properly track of and people's work was being done over and over again in repetition and needlessly and worthlessly. Think of all the hundreds of millions of hours that could have been spent bringing water to the, to the thirsty, food to the poor, you know, you know, immunizations to the, to the sick.

Proxy Ordinances and Temple Work for the Dead

Carah Burrell [01:43:58] Because quite literally you could be at the Salt Lake Temple today and you could, okay, not today because it's under renovation, but you could be hypothetically speaking, at the Salt Lake Temple, walk out of it, go to City Creek for dinner, have an opulent, delicious meal that the church will get a certain percentage of, step over maybe four homeless people,

John Dehlin [01:44:17] push them out of the way, gotta get to the double, you know, homeless person, gotta walk over You.

Carah Burrell [01:44:22] But you were doing work for. I'm gonna be rude. I'm sorry. Like, people who are dead and are not actually receiving these.

John Dehlin [01:44:30] These.

Carah Burrell [01:44:31] What do you want to call them, Ordinances on the other side, in your imagination, they're like, oh, thank you. I get to go to the celestial kingdom. It's gonna be my interpretation. If you're a Mormon, you'll have a different interpretation. My summation of it is that nobody's on the other side actually receiving these things, and you did it for no one except for to pat yourself on the back. Sorry, I'm being rude. Mormons, forgive me. But even if you believe that there's somebody on the other side receiving this ordinance, you still have to be okay. Say that God is okay with 99.9% of all of these people not getting that ordinance until the millennium. You know what I mean? That makes sense, right, John? I'm not going crazy.

John Dehlin [01:45:06] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:45:07] That, like, God cared about, like, somebody getting re baptized maybe four times because the paperwork is not actually flushed out. That what you did for four hours in the temple is of the utmost importance to Elohim to do in 2021. And addressing the systemic homeless problem in, let's say, Salt Lake City, Utah, is of very little priority. It's not on the actual, like, leaderboard of problems that the church actually cares about. It's getting you in the temple. It's you paying your tithing so that you can get your temple recommend so you can keep going through doing these same ordinances over and over and over again. That's. Yeah, that's. I just want to, like, really drill down that point. That that's what I think is, like, the crux of the problem. That as a Mormon, I knew that's what I was doing. I wasn't stupid. I was like. Like, I feel like I'm doing this for nothing when there's actual people outside of the walls of this little country club that I have a membership in that really need my help, and I don't have the time or resources to care. But maybe God doesn't care. And I had to. I had to come to terms with maybe the God I worship doesn't care.

John Dehlin [01:46:08] Yeah. And if I had to summarize, basically Mormons are dressing up in costly apparel and stepping over the homeless to make sure that Hitler gets baptized 15 times. That's basically Mormon temple work in a nutshell.

Carah Burrell [01:46:20] You go to the temple and you rent your temple clothes, which is the exact thing that Jesus also was kind of like money changers flipping Tables over you. You literally. It was the money changers in the Bible that you needed certain things to be able to do temple rituals with, you know, like buy a goat or a chicken or whatever. You still need to do and buy things in the temple to be able to do your temple rituals. But those in the modern Mormon sphere are totally kosher.

John Dehlin [01:46:45] So for me to summarize what I. Let's be constructive for just a second. Now, I think we've been deconstructing in a. In a healthy way because I think we're onto something important. We may not be the most intelligent or articulate people in the world, but I think we've called out something. Okay, you are, I'm not. But if we wanted to give, if we wanted to end by being constructive, here's what I'm going to recommend. So. So Mormon Church, First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve and Church General Authorities, John and Carah have a recommendation for you. We have a suggestion. If you want to follow Christ, if you want to be ethical, if you want to be true representatives of Jesus Christ, right? Stop doing ordinance work for the dead. Stop wasting all this money and time building these opulent, outrageously expensive temples. Stop wasting all the time of these members doing empty, meaningless ordinance work for the dead. Right? And instead spend all your money and have your members spend all their time on water to the thirsty, clean water to the thirsty, food to the hungry, clothes to the naked. Right. Medicine, and medicine for the sick.

Carah Burrell [01:48:06] Would you mind if I interrupted just one second?

John Dehlin [01:48:08] Sure.

Carah Burrell [01:48:08] I'm so sorry. I want to elevate that because I don't want to come at this from like a colonialist perspective that it's our job to go in and do these things. The smarter way to put it, how I would phrase it, is to change the systemic issues that cause America to be involved in, like foreign regime change, wars, that. To upholding the military industrial complex that actually prohibits people from having access and free will within their own countries and their own spheres. It is America's involvement and our perspective on giving things that we are like the Lord and Saviors that need to dish these things out. So while I want the Church to be as charitable as possible, I also want to elevate this. That the higher priority is that Mormons stop seeing ourselves as the saviors and that we need to mind our own business. That's. That's the. That's.

Speaker C [01:48:58] Sure.

Carah Burrell [01:48:58] Sorry to interrupt, but sure, if I. Anytime that I can get that across, I want.

John Dehlin [01:49:02] No, that's important. But also, I mean, if let's just say they're stuck with Jesus. Right? Unfortunately, it's inconvenient, but the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is kind of stuck with Jesus. And Jesus was all about clothes to the naked, food to the hungry, help to the poor and the sick and the afflicted, so that whatever the church can do, spend its time and money and its members, time and money, clothing the naked, naked, feeding the hungry, healing the sick, and blessing the lives of the oppressed and the less fortunate. So, yes, don't be white saviors. Yes. Don't just throw money at problems, but spend your money and time and resources feeding the naked, feeding the hungry, clothing the poor, healing the sick.

Carah Burrell [01:49:52] Yeah. And then again, I'm going to add to that, that actually doing that, actually doing that.

John Dehlin [01:49:56] Not doing dead stupid temple work, work that benefits no one in a super expensive building in. In costly apparel.

Carah Burrell [01:50:04] Exactly. And to become educated on the reasons why there is insufficient water for people, why there are, why people are not able to have access to all of the things that you just mentioned. And what are Mormons reasons that we are complicit in a system that makes things the way that they are to have a bigger conversation.

John Dehlin [01:50:25] Improving the systems.

Carah Burrell [01:50:26] Yes. That you don't just. It's not a. It's literally what Jesus taught of like, you don't just teach like a man,

John Dehlin [01:50:32] teach them a fish.

Carah Burrell [01:50:33] You teach them a fish instead of giving them a fish. Yeah, we need to actually, instead of just giving people clothes, giving people water, talking about the way that Mormonism and our entire like, American imperialism, white savior complex has led to the problems that we go in then, and then we feel superior patting ourselves on the back when we go out and like drop a load of like di clothes off in Ghana or something.

John Dehlin [01:50:54] So what I think I hear you saying is, is the Mormon Church should spend its time and money and should direct the time and money of the members to improving systems that deliver clean water. To improving systems that deliver food to the hungry. To improving systems that put clothes on the naked. To improving systems that eliminate war and violence and the oppression of women. So that's how the church should be spending its time and money and directing the time and money of its members. Is that what you're saying?

Carah Burrell [01:51:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:51:29] To improving systems.

Carah Burrell [01:51:30] Yeah, to improving systems and getting out of the way. But of course, if you believe that you have, you are God's one true church on earth and everyone needs to hear the gospel that you have. None of that stuff matters. I have plenty of videos on my TikTok talking about that and plenty of interactions with people online. Mind that. The thing that matters is that people have the gospel that if they die from starvation, at least they're baptized. If they die from malaria, at least they had a Book of Mormon and they had the opportunity to feel the spirit. It's my perspective that, hey, if you actually believe that people will have a chance in the afterlife to convert to Mormonism, let's just, like, save that for later. Let's talk about the ways to improve systems and stop preaching to people who are in destitute situations that the only way to gain salvation is through hitching your wagon to, like, Joseph Smith's old church here. So that's Carah's, like, really lukewarm take of how hot I wish I could make this. Are you ready for my. My take?

John Dehlin [01:52:33] Yeah. Yeah. So I want to bring it up.

Carah Burrell [01:52:35] Yeah, we're gonna wrap up. We're gonna answer some questions in the comments. John, why don't you start collecting any comments that you.

John Dehlin [01:52:40] Okay, so now is your time to post comments or questions. If you want us to answer any questions. Questions. We're gonna go a little longer.

Carah Burrell [01:52:46] Oh, yeah, we're trying to wrap up really soon. Yeah. This will take one minute.

John Dehlin [01:52:49] Okay.

Carah Burrell [01:52:49] Just my thoughts on this. I want to bring this back to influencers. And if you listen to me talk very often on this podcast or other places, I will sound like a broken record. But my issue is always about dogma, whether it's inside a religion or outside dogma. And unchallenged beliefs based on bad evidence is always this the thing that I really want to attack. And so. So something like the Mormon Church that has so much power and influence and these different Instagram influencers. I just want to bring it all back together that we know that the only way that the church has changed and corrected and course corrected over time is through agitators from the bottom up and the outside in. And there's a reason why you don't encounter mainstream LDS members who are still practicing polygamy, who are still, as, you know, outspokenly racist, as you don't. You don't encounter as many Mormons from the 1800s in 2021. It's because of the world that they try so hard to say that we're in the world, but not of the world. It's because of the world. It's because of societal pressure. It's because of people with influence, with platforms saying that there are things that we will not tolerate anymore within this dogmatic religious system. And so. So it is my plea to people who have influence. Not everyone does. Not everyone has the bandwidth. But for influencers who make their living off of preaching to a Mormon crowd, to use their influence for good, because we know that the church will only change and reform its dogma with enough. With. With enough pressure and bringing this back to temples as well. There's a reason why the temple rituals are not the same. Same today as they were when John de Lynn went through. They're different for when my, you know, great great grandma, my parents are conference, my husband's great great grandma went through, and they were swearing oaths to avenge the death for Joseph and Hiram against the United States. There's reasons why the penalties and the things within the church change that. Women used to have a lot more sexism because the church benefits from keeping things quiet, keeping things, calling them sacred so people don't talk about the ways that the dogma has changed under pressure. So it is my plea. Influence and power keeps speaking up and saying that there's no more room for us to tolerate the treatment of LGBTQ people. There's no more room for us to tolerate the teachings that are still on the church's website right now about Lamanites and Native Americans. There's so many disrespectful and horrible beliefs that Mormonism has ditched in the past, but still carry on their. In their doctrine right now and today. And all I want to do is just keep pushing for people to soften and reform that dogma and call it out for what it is.

John Dehlin [01:55:34] I love it. Amen. High five. High five. I also want to, in. In following on your idea of people using their influence, I just want to thank Aaron Michael Wayburn. He. He used the super Chat feature to donate very generously today to this episode. Aaron wrote. Thank you, John and Carah. Mormon Stories podcast is something I want to invest in. And, you know, I'm aware that we rely on the donations of our listeners, and then here we are talking about money and hypocrisy and greed. I just want to say that the Open Stories foundation is a nonprofit and we have a mission. And the mission is to wake people up, to educate Mormons, to expose the harm that the church causes people, and then to use our time and our money and our effort to support people who are losing their orthodox faith in Mormonism and or transitioning away from the church. And all I can say is we feel like it's a worthy cause. We don't do this for the money, but we need money to do this. You need to provide health insurance for your family. You need to provide an income for your family. I do, too.

Carah Burrell [01:56:47] I still buy my clothes at Savers, so. So don't worry. Just because I'm sitting next to old moneybags John de Lynn here doesn't mean that I'm going to the Gucci store or anything, you guys. No, we only make enough money that is just, like, sustainable for our families. And all of the financial financials are transparent. So we want to be completely, like, as straightforward about that as we can.

John Dehlin [01:57:09] Yeah. And so thank you, Aaron. And by the way, I'm going to say I. I'm not. I don't want to mislead people right now. I'm getting paid very, very generously. And in some ways, it's a way to pay back the 15 or 20 years that I worked for free. But it's also what my board of directors has decided is what my market value is.

Carah Burrell [01:57:29] But what I mean, John, you just heard me rant for the last hour about the rich, and it's fine with me.

John Dehlin [01:57:35] What I'm trying to say is that I'm.

Carah Burrell [01:57:36] Carah approves. It's fine.

John Dehlin [01:57:37] Thank you, Carah. I'm grateful for the people that support us financially. Thank you to Aaron Michael Wayburn. Thank you to Josh Nielsen. He writes. I'm a longtime listener and newish monthly donor to Mormon Stories podcast. John, your wisdom and insight and cares, wit and humor has been so therapeutic for me. Hope to meet you guys someday. And I guess I'm just saying we want to thank all the donors and contributors. Senor Clay writes, I've been freeloading for a while. Might as well contribute something. All we want to say is that we do our best to take your donations and to alleviate suffering, to wake people up to the harm that's being caused and to prevent unnecessary divorce, to prevent the unnecessary dissolution of families, to hopefully promote less suffering within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and to help the Mormon Church do and be better. And so I guess want to just thank our donors and say that as long as we are working for the Open Stories foundation, our goal is going to be to do good in the world. And I think, you know, the church thinks they're doing good in the world, and I think our point is they can do better with the time and money that they have.

Carah Burrell [01:58:49] Right on. Right on. And the only thing I have to add to that is any kind of, like, dogmatic system that the church, you know, claim has one central figure, the prophet speaks for God. And you need to like sustain them with like total authority over your life. The thing is, is that when you have a system that needs a little bit of like nuancing like that, it's only because what John was just saying, the only reason that we're even speaking out about these things is because it's things that are promised in an afterlife. It's things, it's dogma that you give your riches, you give your tithing to. You give up so much to live for something that's promised in an afterlife. And that is one of the most dangerous in my opinion, things that needs to be nuanced. That if people want to relieve in religions like that, we also need to have an honest conversation about what we are giving up for that supposed afterlife of who we're stepping over in this life, the homeless person that we're stepping over the. Because of what's promised. So whether people want to stay in the church or whatever, all I want to do is just like nuance the topics around it, have people understand and have as much informed consent about the truth claims and to be be involved in the church in the healthiest manner possible. Yeah, that it's the healthiest system to belong to.

John Dehlin [02:00:06] Yeah. If I had to come at that from my angle. It's just that the church claims to speak to and for God. It claims to be God's one true church on the earth and then bringing temples and tithing into it. The church keeps people from seeing the weddings of their own children, extorting them by saying the only way you get into the temple to go on a mission to get married in the temple and to see your kids get married in the temple. The only way to keep from being embarrassed in front of your entire ward, congregation and family is to give us 10% of your income for life. And God, by the way, God told us that this is the way it is. That is undue influence. That's coercion. That's why at the end of the day, why the Mormon Church builds these temples. Let's not lose that main point. That the reason why the church builds these temples is because they've done studies that show that they get more tithing money wherever they build a temple. That's why they build these temples, because they get more tithing money. And so I think that's what you're speaking to. There's so much undue influence there that these temples are symbols of coercion and undue influence and graft and, and you know, grifting on the members.

Carah Burrell [02:01:22] Yeah, yeah. And to the point about like Mark Oslin getting excommunicated last week and you've been excommunicated and to speak even just like, hey church, I would like to be a member in this. But this system with the temples and what you're spending money on or the way that this undo influence is wielded over that I can't see my kids get married if I don't completely adhere to these really strict rules. I understand it's your club and you can make the rules, but it also you have to acknowledge more humans that there is something super seedy, there is something super, super suspicious about a system that says the second that you defect and you're asking for change to the dogma, you're asking for change of the system, you're asking for reform publicly.

John Dehlin [02:02:02] Grown, grown men shouldn't sit behind a closed door with a 12 year old girl and ask them about where they touch themselves. That's all Sam Young asked.

Carah Burrell [02:02:10] Yeah, yeah. And I, yeah. And like, and you think about the influencers that were invited. It, it's, I'm sorry, I'm going to use the word superficial again. It's a certain type of person who has a certain type of platform.

John Dehlin [02:02:21] Pay, pray and obey. Yeah, right.

Carah Burrell [02:02:23] But, but anybody who would be an agitator, who would, who is not like following the exact instructions kind of down from Salt Lake that you're any kind of agitator, the church is not going to invite those type of people because it it that would signify that the church allows any kind of bottom up

John Dehlin [02:02:39] change, any kind of questions, criticism.

Carah Burrell [02:02:41] No, the church needs to, to keep the, the man behind the curtain kind of facade that now any change that's ever happened within this church, whether it's changes to bishops interviews or temple changes. No, no, we need to keep the facade that that's always comes from bottom from the, from the top down that it's never been from people who are influential. And I just want to circle back again to the influencer point that like hey, if you're a Mormon influencer out there, this is Carah's invite that if you do lose your faith, I'll interview you. We had Halle Everts on and it was like the most popular Mormon stories episode of all time that there's something that people are thirsting after. Like they want people to say, okay, I was a fake Mormon influencer back then. I did what the church told me to do. I like was paid on their dime. And now I can't keep it up anymore because I discovered X, Y and Z about the church. I couldn't keep up with the cognitive dissonance. If anybody out there is that type of person, like, that's who. Mormon Stories. We want people's authenticity to shine through. We want to give people validation that like the church asks so much of your finances, of your. Or this performative nature of the church. And at some point, like push comes to shove and you can't handle it anymore and it breaks you and you can't keep up this, you know, this, this image anymore. As a Mormon and as an influencer, like, that's got to be so painful and difficult. So like, if that is somebody out there listening to this, I'm the first one to say that sucks. If you need a break from it and you have lost your faith and you can't put up with that anymore. Mormon Stories, give us a call.

Call to Ex-Mormon Influencers and Closing Thoughts

John Dehlin [02:04:06] We will interview. A call to all ex Mormon influencers. We would love to interview on Mormon Stories Podcast. If you've been a successful, highly visible Mormon influencer, free ticket to an interview on Mormon Stories podcast. Yeah, True.

Carah Burrell [02:04:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:04:21] Really quick.

Carah Burrell [02:04:22] How exhausting.

John Dehlin [02:04:22] Really quickly.

Carah Burrell [02:04:23] I love you so much.

John Dehlin [02:04:25] Huge thanks to Paulette Bridgewater who donated through Super Chat. Josh writes Mormon Stories podcast has been a huge help to me over the last year. Thanks for the topics and perspectives you bring. We just want to just say as we close today, well, Carah, thank you for organizing today's episode.

Carah Burrell [02:04:42] We've kind of organized today. And for bringing a good little producer.

John Dehlin [02:04:45] Yeah. And for. And for bringing to me this idea of doing a weekly chat call in show. Like, I think we have a lot to learn to get better, but I think we're doing a great job and I think people like what we're doing and we're just gonna get better.

Carah Burrell [02:04:58] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:04:59] So thanks for what you bring to Mormon Stories and the Open Stories Foundation.

Carah Burrell [02:05:02] John was out of town and you're York this whole week and playing around and I was like, some of us has got to get to work. Let me plan this live stream.

John Dehlin [02:05:11] So thanks, Karen. You're awesome.

Carah Burrell [02:05:13] Oh, thank you, John.

John Dehlin [02:05:13] And thanks to everyone who donated today. Thanks to everyone who commented in the chats. We encourage you to continue commenting on Facebook or on YouTube because people come back later and they watch these videos and both Facebook and YouTube, they play the live chats. So this conversation can just continue. So please make comments, please share this with other people. But most importantly, let's end by thanking all the people who donate to Mormon Stories and the Oba Stories Foundation. They pay for Carah's salary. We try and pay you generously and help support your health insurance. Is that right? Very.

Carah Burrell [02:05:51] Right.

John Dehlin [02:05:52] I mean, we're doing our best.

Carah Burrell [02:05:53] I totally. John does very well at paying me.

John Dehlin [02:05:57] And the board.

Carah Burrell [02:05:58] And the board, yes. It's not just John. It's not like him, like, here's 20 bucks, carry out of his wallet or anything. But we're trying to practice what we preach, right? No complaints from me, I'll say that much.

John Dehlin [02:06:08] So. So. But to be able to pay Carah, to be able to pay Gerardo to do our thumbnails and her cinematography, and to co host, to pay Brooklyn to do our audio and video editing, to pay for all this equipment and hosting fees, we always just. We need support. So thank you to everyone who donates to Mormon Stories Podcast, Podcast and the Open Stories Foundation. Your donations make all this possible. If you value these live streams, if you value the podcast and you're not a contributor, it's okay. If you are not a contributor, we give this away for free. Don't feel bad, Lee, if you don't contribute. But if you don't contribute and you can and you benefit from this programming, we just want to say, please contribute. Go to mormonstories.org Click on the Donate button. Become a monthly donor. 10 bucks a month, 20 bucks a month, 50 bucks a month. Whatever you can afford. What I can promise you is this. My compensation will always be set by an independent board that bases it on fair market value. Everyone else who gets paid will be based on fair market value. And 100% of our time and our energy and our resources will go towards the mission of Mormon Stories and the OPA Stories foundation, which is alleviating suffering and. And promoting education for Mormons and ex Mormons. That's what we're about. That's our promise to you. Our finances are transparent. Every year we publish a 990 that shows how we spent the money. And we will continue to follow the laws and unlike the Mormon Church and other churches, publish our finances annually so that you can see how we spend our money, how much I get paid, and where the money goes. Please become a monthly supporter Order. And we will keep doing this programming for as long as we can. And I think we want their feedback, too. Do you want to tell us how they can give us feedback so that we can make our show better?

Carah Burrell [02:07:57] If you want to write in an email to mormonstories gmail.com and we love your constructive criticism, I feel like there's, like, nothing to even, like, criticize today.

John Dehlin [02:08:08] I think what if they want to make fun of your appearance? What if they want to make fun of your appearance? Do we want those emails?

Carah Burrell [02:08:12] That's to my Instagram where I can make fun of you making fun of me.

John Dehlin [02:08:15] You like it when people make fun of your parents. Margi stopped me today and she said, I just have to say this. Margi's like, did you see what people are saying about Karen, her appearance? I'm so angry. But Carah, like, seems like she's enjoying it. Margi was kind of confused.

Carah Burrell [02:08:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:08:29] What is it?

Carah Burrell [02:08:30] Like, some people get a TikTok about it this week.

John Dehlin [02:08:33] Some people get devastated when on my behalf. But also just individually. Some people don't like to be criticized for their appearance. It almost looks like you enjoy it.

Carah Burrell [02:08:41] I do because I made a TikTok about it this week where people are like, Carah, just like block the channel trolls who make fun of your nose and stuff. And then I made a tick tock where I was like. But I like it because I was. I'm like the youngest of five and my only love language that I've ever known in my life is being bullied. And so that's the only attention I ever got.

John Dehlin [02:08:57] Do you do therapy?

Carah Burrell [02:08:58] No, because I then I learned how to like, dish. Like I get it dished to me.

John Dehlin [02:09:01] It makes you resilient. It makes you resilient.

Carah Burrell [02:09:03] Super resilient.

John Dehlin [02:09:03] So that is your therapy?

Carah Burrell [02:09:05] Yeah. Like finding a way to find a joke within somebody trolling me or trying to make fun of the me is some of my best content and I would never want that to disappear. If I could press a button and have nobody say a mean thing to me ever again, I would throw that button away like a bomb that was about to explode. No, I don't want to press that button. I like it because a, it highlights sometimes that my arguments are probably pretty good if the only thing people can attack is my appearance. So I was like, okay, well, not one. Or I find some type of way to make it into like a funny, like rebuttal. Something like that.

John Dehlin [02:09:35] I love it.

Carah Burrell [02:09:36] So, yeah, anyway, if you want, if you want to leave some feedback back, you can absolutely email us and make sure to follow us on Instagram and Facebook. And John, between John and me, we'll make sure to read them and I won't.

John Dehlin [02:09:50] And we'll improve the show. We want to make this show better. If you want to tell us how, what we can do to make you like it more, to make it more effective, we want your feedback. So email us@mormonstoriesgmail.com comment on YouTube. We read every comment and don't be mean. Harry Henderson's donating $5 to the CARA Taco fund. So next time you're late or we're working through lunch, there's five can grab hub some tacos. There's. Yeah, you can grab some. Thank you, Harry. And I promise your $5 will go towards tacos for Carah during a late night work session or working through lunch.

Carah Burrell [02:10:25] Thanks. Thank you so much. Are we going to answer a few questions now or do we need to wrap up?

John Dehlin [02:10:30] It's up to you. You. You sometimes want to make sure we keep these tight, but we still.

Carah Burrell [02:10:33] I decided to because I still, I still want to answer just a couple questions. Chat here towards the end. Okay, Last livestream. Jerry Run.

John Dehlin [02:10:42] Tearing era away from a live stream. It's impossible is like, is like trying to pair tear away the earth from the sun's orbit. It's like impossible.

Carah Burrell [02:10:51] Yeah. But I just wanted to say somebody mentioned up there that what I just described as like being bullied is like a trauma response. And while I can see your perspective on that, it is so funny. I just find the humor in too many things. Like I'm a pretty like go with the flow. So I've had some traumatic things happen to me in my life and I'm just like, what are you gonna do about it kind of girl. And I would just like to add that I have a tick tock about this. That when I told my sisters about my tick tock, I have two older sisters. Both of them are ex Mormons. So it's not like they have a dog in the Mormonism fight here. When I told them both about my tick tock. And then the same day I told them that I was invited on Mormon Stories podcast to be interviewed by John de Lynn. This is like back last February, I had two. I had phone conversations with them and I actually wrote down notes from what they said to me. Me. And one of the things that my sister said to me when I said that I was coming on Mormon Stories podcast is she had a loss for words and she was stuttering and she said what? What, what? What on earth of interest could you possibly have to say? And that's the funny that's just like, that's like a satire. That's like a characterization of how older sisters are. And I just like validating because every time I mention how like that's just like the fire, the inferno that raised me, I think it makes a lot more sense for why I am the way that I am, and I just encourage people. If you also had, like, come, like, kind of, like, crappy older siblings that just, like, teased you and bullied you your entire life, take a. Take a lesson from your old gal Carol over here that, like, if you could find a way to, like, use it for your benefit and try to, like, actually get some juice out of that from the lemons that you were given, just. Just see what you can do with it. That's. That's why I am the way that I am is my. My older siblings being really demeaning to me my entire life, and now I'm tough as nails. Nothing can get you.

John Dehlin [02:12:35] You are tough as nails. Okay, so we are now opening up for the next, what, 10 minutes, opening up to your questions and comments. We will read your questions and comments, and we'll do our best to answer questions you have. I'm gonna share a couple comments as we're waiting for your questions and comments to come in. Poppy's. Jeff Day says, kara, are you sure

Carah Burrell [02:12:53] you wanna read this?

John Dehlin [02:12:53] I like your nose just fine. And my Twitter profile is. Is themed as a nose fetish account, so I'm an expert. And then he says, don't take that too seriously. Anything you want to say to poppies, Jeff Day?

Carah Burrell [02:13:04] Oh, well, this better be your new profile picture. Look at that. I like to say the reason it's so crooked is because I got it

John Dehlin [02:13:11] from Kurt McCartney McConkey.

Carah Burrell [02:13:13] All right, I will be doing callbacks to my. We don't need to just compliment me.

John Dehlin [02:13:16] This is like, hey, I'm choosing right now. Okay? So Toby writes, kara is beautiful. People who make fun of her magnificent nose are just jealous.

Carah Burrell [02:13:27] Stop. What you guys can do is, you know, john, I just bought a saxophone this week, and what you can do is make fun of my Saxon playing. So that's the only thing that I need, some constructive criticism. My nose is what it is. And you know what, too, is on Instagram this week as I had, like, this real. I had a video, like, Blow the Freak up on Instagram, which doesn't happen very often. And probably 20 to 30 comments. It's all, like, men between the ages of, like, 18 to 30 calling out my schnoz. And all that really does is, you know, make you look like kind of an a hole. And it's like, okay, that's what you want to do. And I said to one of them, I made a response video to it, and I tagged every single one of them because I invite trolls to come and Talk to me. And one of them was just acting really, really crappy. If. In the comments, if you want to go read it. And. And I said to him, I was like, what's weird is, like, I was born like this, but you're choosing this personality. And I think that's just how. That's how people act, you know, it's like, I literally can't do anything about this outside of paying a plastic surgeon. But one of them said, why don't I bully you into the plastic surgery office? And I'm like, point taken.

John Dehlin [02:14:36] I love it.

Carah Burrell [02:14:37] That's what I deal with. And it makes me laugh. But I get Margi's point. Laura Schnell called me earlier this week, too. She's like, I am upset for you, Carah. And I was like, why? It affects me if you told me that I. I make no sense. And I. I tried to make, like, a really good ranty point. And I just sounded like I was, like, drunk and, like, moaning on, and I didn't make any sense. Maybe my feelings would approach getting hurt, because that's the only thing I care about is, like, coming across minorly articulate because that's in my family, you know, the youngest sibling. All I want to do is, like, feel a little bit hurt. And if people tell me I suck and that I don't have good things to say and I'm wasting space in their ear holes, that's. That's still. I'm not for everyone, though, so it still wouldn't make me feel that too bad.

John Dehlin [02:15:21] Josh donated seven bucks, and he says, kara, for what it's worth, again. And don't worry about the notes. Josh has a huge. Okay, so Matt writes. Matt Hoyland writes solo, Carah, just like last week, I would. What does solo care mean? Oh, when you stayed after. See? So he's saying more Mormon stories. Solo live streams with Carah. What do you think I get into? Are we better together or are you better alone? Should I just quit? Is basically. Josh is saying I should quit and resign.

Carah Burrell [02:15:51] That's what Matt is saying, not Josh. The point is that. No, because I miss you. Because I need somebody to tell me. Like I just said, I need to tell them. I need somebody to. To tell me. Great point, Carah. Or else I'll just feel like I sounded like a moron.

John Dehlin [02:16:07] So the. The church has taught that the. The man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, or something like that. Right? There needs to be. Maybe there needs to be balance in the force. I don't know.

Carah Burrell [02:16:18] And you have Your woman's birthday waiting for you at home. I have. My man's birthday is also today. If you didn't hear from the very beginning, if you're tuning in just now, Both of our spouses have the same birthday today. Isn't that kind of cool?

John Dehlin [02:16:27] And we're both super, super happily married. And men and women can work together in a workforce, in a professional away.

Carah Burrell [02:16:33] Yeah. Look at this distance right here.

John Dehlin [02:16:35] Austin says, just make sure those free tacos are on the 990. That's a great point, Austin. We will make sure and have a dedicated taco line in the financial report of the 990.

Carah Burrell [02:16:48] John, you said you wouldn't make it weird.

John Dehlin [02:16:51] Did I make it weird? Did I make it weird?

Carah Burrell [02:16:55] No.

John Dehlin [02:16:55] What did I say? What did I say?

Carah Burrell [02:16:57] I am like, when people ask, you know, like, what's your most embarrassing moment? I don't have any because I don't get embarrassed, like, almost ever. I really can't think of an embarrassing moment because either my life is just nothing but embarrassment or never embarrassed. So I just. I choose to never be embarrassed. I'm just like. I'm just kind of a. I'm just kind of a show.

Speaker C [02:17:14] I don't know.

John Dehlin [02:17:15] Okay, so nothing asks, can you do an episode about people's Trek experiences? Ooh, wouldn't that be kind of cool?

Carah Burrell [02:17:22] That would be really good because I've heard some stories out there. There's all range of experiences from Cafe Rio catering track, just like the pioneers, all the way to, like, you know, people getting legitimate frostbite and, you know, living more of an authentic pioneer experience.

John Dehlin [02:17:45] Oh, wow. There's a comment from Harry.

Carah Burrell [02:17:48] Whoa. Hey now.

John Dehlin [02:17:50] Do you want to read it?

Carah Burrell [02:17:52] No, but Margi got some competition with Harry Henderson.

John Dehlin [02:17:58] Harry writes, I think John de Luna is sexy too. So. Thanks, Harry. I appreciate that.

Carah Burrell [02:18:01] John. John's just scanning the comments. We're like, what about me? What about me?

John Dehlin [02:18:04] No, I'm reading ones that are relevant. All right. Jessa writes, John and Carah, do you know what Elder Russell M. Nelson was implying at conference with new changes at the temple?

Carah Burrell [02:18:15] Oh, so do we does.

John Dehlin [02:18:18] Basically, Jess is asking, does President Nelson run by his temple changes?

Carah Burrell [02:18:23] Does he run it by us with John and Carah? No, but he should. No, I. I feel like I keep a good finger on the pulse of the temple changes, but nothing's coming to my fine. Anything for you.

John Dehlin [02:18:31] I mean, there are always different rumors, like, are they going to start letting non Mormons watch a temple ceiling?

Carah Burrell [02:18:39] They would have to not wear the temple clothes, though. Right.

John Dehlin [02:18:41] I. I don't know.

Carah Burrell [02:18:42] I don't think that they could have one of the other.

John Dehlin [02:18:44] But right now everyone did. You don't have to wear the temple clothes to watch a ceiling.

Carah Burrell [02:18:48] Not watch it, but to watch somebody get married. I would assume they would say you don't need to be in your. Your temple garb to get married because

John Dehlin [02:18:55] right now you don't. Like, if I'm. If my daughter's getting married married and I go to watch her temple ceiling, I'm not dressed in the baker hat. Right. Okay.

Carah Burrell [02:19:03] Understand what I'm saying? I'm saying the couple getting married is in their garb.

John Dehlin [02:19:06] Oh, they'll have.

Carah Burrell [02:19:07] And so if there was a non Mormon watching that doesn't know what the temple garb is, they would be like, oh, that's for.

John Dehlin [02:19:12] I think they're gonna take that away from the couple.

Carah Burrell [02:19:15] I don't.

John Dehlin [02:19:16] So you're saying maybe that maybe they might do that.

Carah Burrell [02:19:18] Is there really a true reason that anyone needs to be dressed in it

John Dehlin [02:19:21] in the baker hat and the white robe?

Carah Burrell [02:19:23] Yeah, unless you. Unless maybe the first time you go through. But is there. Do you really have to be.

John Dehlin [02:19:27] It's a fair question. What else are some of the changes? I mean, they're always changing the actual ceremony, making it less. Less sexist, less Masonic, less violent. And, and they had to. Oh, by the way, they had to. They did a renovation of the video that you watch and then they found out that a literal pedophile had directed the. The temple video. This was Sean Escobar revealing that Sterling Von Wagonen, the co founder of Sundance Film Festival with Robert Redford, he had produced the new Change temple videos. He had also been a pedophile and sexually abused Sean Escobar, the founder of Mormon enlightenment. Yeah, he had. They had asked a known sexual predator and pedophile while to create the new temple videos. And as soon as Shaun Escobar came out that story, they had to remove those videos from the Mormon Temple ceremony

Carah Burrell [02:20:29] of people were getting their endowments watching a video produced everything that the directed everything that the actors were doing in this temple video that you're supposed to be getting all the spiritual fulfillment and enlightenment and learning all of these important eternal truths from was directed and produced

John Dehlin [02:20:46] by a known by the church. Church. They had, they had disfellowshipped him at one point. So he was a known pedophile and sexual predator who is in prison now. This is Sterling Van Wagner. And that's why the church had to take down its most recent renovation of the the temple videos.

Carah Burrell [02:21:04] What is their reasoning? He produces good work, though. Like, how would they not know that people are going to have a huge to do about that?

John Dehlin [02:21:10] I mean, it would have been handy to have a prophet sir and revelator know ahead of time that, that, that the director that they choose for the temple videos was not a pedophile and a sexual predator. That would have been nice to have a prophet.

Carah Burrell [02:21:23] I think anybody who has been at the hands of sexual abuse within the church is really scratching their head why there was nobody looking out for them that has a direct line to God. Makes you wonder. Makes you wonder if that line is a little bit fuzzy. Yeah, that's really unfortunate.

John Dehlin [02:21:40] So Russell M. Nelson is actually weighing in and he says let's just stop talking about the nose altogether. Let's focus on not saying the word Mormon and giving Satan victories. I think that's an important point. Yeah, don't ever. I mean, I think the church. I mean, what. What does the Russell M. Nelson administration stand for? What does it mean to be a prophet in modern Mormonism? A prophet. Stare and revelator.

Carah Burrell [02:22:05] Changing logo.

John Dehlin [02:22:06] It is changing the church logo, building lots of buildings and making sure that nobody uses the word Mormon. After the church spent hundreds of millions of dollars on a marketing campaign to tell people to use the word Mormon.

Carah Burrell [02:22:22] Yeah. And building. Do you mind if I did one more last hot take? If anyone has any last questions on YouTube or Facebook, drop them right now. John's gonna find one more question to answer while Carah goes through one of my most popular slash unpopular hot takes that I have one tick tock about that. I've said before, I don't think Mormons believe Mormonism. I'm sorry, okay, I'm sorry. Let me, let me just say something because you have to sustain the prophet. And like we were talking about earlier, all the things that the prophet cares about. Logo change, building temples, all of these things. Yeah, okay. That could just be his prerogative. And you're like, okay, that's cool. That's fine. That's. That's all. But does it not give you a huge clue that one of his biggest priorities is changing and making to sure to emphasize the correct name of the church when there are, like we were saying earlier, so many problems within the church. But that's not the point that I want to make. The point has more to do with everybody getting super, like up in arms about making sure that, oh, don't call us Mormon. Like correcting people like, hey, it's church, Jesus Christ, Latter Day Saints, Would like, would God really care? Does God the godly worship Mormons really care that anytime something needs to be corrected it is you the victim of a name misplacement and you know, redirection. Like I just really want to like ask Mormons directly. You really believe in a God that that's one of his highest, highest, highest priorities about the things that he cares about. Because if God is, if Christ is really coming back and he has a lot of stuff to get done, a lot of prophecies need to be fulfilled. A lot of gathering of Israel, a lot of missionary work. Where are those the bracelets used? I know on correcting of all the things the proper name of the church witnesses to me testifies to me is a little bit of just like a to Carah that maybe Mormons don't actually believe Christ is coming back because they are not emphasizing any of the things Christ preached about then or any of the things that would need to come into place for him to come back. Because if he's coming back, hey, some people called the church Mormon, not church Jesus Christ, Latter Day Saints. You know what? They're burning up at a ball of fire. I don't know what, what is Mormon Jesus coming back to do? Do you know what? I don't know what the distinction is is between what he's coming back to do.

John Dehlin [02:24:52] He's going to slay all the wicked and non Mormons and then he's going to establish the new Jerusalem on the earth.

Carah Burrell [02:24:58] But like we're all being.

John Dehlin [02:24:59] All the Mormons are going to gather. No, no, no, no. The righteous are twinkled and are allowed to stay and the wicked and all the non Mormons are going to burn and die and then for a thousand years we're going to do temple work in the millennium, you know, gathered at the new Jerusalem which is supposed to be Independence, Missouri.

Carah Burrell [02:25:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:25:20] Which is a meth hole.

Carah Burrell [02:25:21] What happens though?

John Dehlin [02:25:23] The wicked are burned. The wicked are literally burned.

Carah Burrell [02:25:25] So that's my point. That's all I want to say is like if John Dehlin and Carah Burrell, if we are really and all the

John Dehlin [02:25:31] non Mormons, all of the things, all

Carah Burrell [02:25:32] the people that are in the YouTube comment sections and on my tick tock correcting me trying to like preach that we have everything wrong. Don't call us a cult, don't call us this, don't call us that. I don't know if you actually believe what you say you believe because we're just going to be burned up, are we not? Not like is calling the church Mormon instead of churches, Is that really of the utmost importance if we're all just going to be burned by Jesus in a couple years? You know what I mean?

John Dehlin [02:25:57] You raise a really good, important point.

Carah Burrell [02:25:59] I don't know if you actually believe it. I think maybe religion to Mormons is a little bit more tribal and ego driven than actually believing this because I don't think people are like actually gonna like defend to the death that the Jaredite barges came to America or defend things to the death. But they will defend like the place they come from. The church that like feels like it's part of their family. I respect that. Like, yeah, everybody's tribal to a certain extent that you want to like, you know, protect your tribe and correct false truths about it and stuff. But you're not just talking about any old tribe. You're talking about something that's going to come and burn us alive in a couple years. Potentially supposed to have happened last year, if you ask. I had to, I had to leave a bunch of Facebook groups in 2020, a bunch of Mormon Facebook groups because the, you know, the number one topic was, is Jesus coming tomorrow? Maybe next week? When is Jesus coming? And I got kind of annoyed with that because that's what every generation thinks of. But anyway, the point is covered that

John Dehlin [02:26:51] a lot in our prepper, our recent Lori Valo, Chad Dava Lori Valo murders episode. We talked a lot about preppers and you know, Joseph Smith started the fascination with the millennium and when Jesus is coming back. We're called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, which means that the time is coming any minute now. I know the truth is Christians have been waiting.

Carah Burrell [02:27:13] That's what Joseph Smith said that like, why you listen to a couple people who are like, why do you care what we have to say? Jesus is going to burn us alive. That's what you believe. Just let it. Just let it happen. Give up the ghost, you know.

John Dehlin [02:27:25] A couple more comments. Chris Jones writes, I'm friends with Aaron and Kaylin Organ who were on the podcast. They're two actually it was just Kaylin who's on the podcast. Aaron didn't come on at the time time but Chris writes, I have been listening to your podcast for a while now and it has helped me process my trauma. Thank you so much. Joe Bold writes. Midnight Mormon. The Midnight Mormon show went after John for asking for donations a few weeks ago, but they just posted that they're now asking for donations via Venmo. So I guess they're. I guess somebody's calling out potential hypocrisy with. With Midnight Mormons. So, you know, know, that's cool. Whatever you guys want to do.

Carah Burrell [02:28:07] They take donations of, like, energy drinks. That's pretty much the only thing I think that they're really spending their money on to just be like, super hyped. To just have, like, hours and hours of John de Lynn breakdowns.

John Dehlin [02:28:19] You better watch out or they'll come after you, Carah. Actually, they have come after you. And RFM and Bill Real. They're coming after you. Carah, be careful.

Carah Burrell [02:28:27] Look at that space that I'm making. I don't even have. I. I don't even have, like, the energy to, like, actually come up with something because my brain is like, it's not worth it. Just all I can give you is this look of, like, shared disappointment and annoyance.

Listener Questions and Final Reflections

John Dehlin [02:28:42] Terry writes, how is my patriarchal blessing different than a tarot card reading? I think. I think that's a fair question. Yeah. So, I mean, I guess I can't

Carah Burrell [02:28:53] get over this annoyed face. I'm sorry. I just feel like it's like, it's like a yapping 5 year old who's like, you can know that I have, like, I have keys to a freaking car. Like, you were like, if. It was like, if I was at a park and there was like a five year old that I didn't know yapping at me and I was like, hey, little boy, I have keys to a car. I can literally just like, go get my car, start it. I have a driver's license. I can go anywhere in the world. I did not need to spend, like, one brain cell listening to somebody uninformed on a playground who has no world experience, who's been on earth for like five minutes trying to tell me what I know, be like, okay, I got a car. Vroom, vroom. Bit sorry.

John Dehlin [02:29:32] I think we should end with this comment. Beck says Carah is clearly petrified.

Carah Burrell [02:29:36] Right.

John Dehlin [02:29:37] You're afraid of Midnight Mormons, aren't you, Carah?

Carah Burrell [02:29:40] I don't even have, like, an articulate response. I just have, like, groaning.

John Dehlin [02:29:44] All right, well, that's today's episode. Carah, how'd you feel?

Carah Burrell [02:29:47] I loved it. I'm gonna go email right now and make sure everyone feels the same way, which is, I'm sure what you guys are all saying.

John Dehlin [02:29:54] And you now need to go celebrate your husband Aaron's amazing.

Carah Burrell [02:29:58] I'm cutting it so, so freaking close.

John Dehlin [02:29:59] And I need to go celebrate Margi's birthday because my wife Margi turned 50. 50, 50 today. It's her 50th birthday half a century on this earth. Shout out to my awesome, lovely, brilliant

Carah Burrell [02:30:13] wife, happy birthday Margi.

John Dehlin [02:30:14] Wife Margi, happy 50th birthday.

Carah Burrell [02:30:16] She has the most like enviable skin. Everybody who sees Margi has great skin or, or for through a photograph stops what they're doing. Their jaws are on the floor and they say, what is your skin rigging like? You are gorgeous. So she's. You got a hot 50 year old

John Dehlin [02:30:30] wife there and she ages so gracefully. That streak, that gray streak in her hair, it reminds me of Rogue on the X Men. Oh, do you like the X Men?

Carah Burrell [02:30:38] I love Rogue. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:30:40] Margi's got that gray streak in her hair that reminds me of Rogue. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:30:43] And I have to get going because I have a babysitter coming at 4 o' clock and if you don't know, it's 20 to 4 now.

John Dehlin [02:30:48] Aaron.

Carah Burrell [02:30:48] Happy birthday to my lovely husband, Aaron Burrell.

John Dehlin [02:30:51] You're awesome. Thanks for sharing. Sharing the amazing care barrel with the world. We know that you, Aaron, taking care of the kids so that Eric can bless the world is what you do. Aaron is a really important part of what allows care to do what she do does. So shout out to Aaron. Thank you Aaron. You're awesome, Aaron. Happy birthday, Aaron.

Carah Burrell [02:31:12] Thanks. Yeah, I have to go and go out to dinner with my lovely husband now, so thanks for spending the afternoon with us, everyone.

John Dehlin [02:31:19] All right, love you guys. Thanks for all the chats. Please stay in touch and we'll see you guys all again very soon on another another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Thanks, Carah.

Carah Burrell [02:31:26] Thanks, John.

John Dehlin [02:31:27] Bye everybody.

Carah Burrell [02:31:27] Bye.

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